C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

15 JANUARY 2020

D AY 1 9 9

20

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 15 JANUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m r e a d y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

P l e a s e g i v e m e a n o u t l in e o f w h a t t h i s w i t n e s s w i ll

t e s ti fy a b o u t . I h a v e h a d a l o o k a t th e a ff id a v it a n d t h e n le t u s ta k e i t
fr o m t h e r e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Ye s .

C h a ir th e n e x t w it n e s s i s C o l o n e l Va n

L o g g e r e n b e r g a n d h e is g o in g t o t e s ti fy a b o u t h i s r o l e i n t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n o f th e P a n d a y m a t t e r a n d h e i s a l s o g o i n g t o t e s t i fy a s t o
h o w t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s s t o p p e d a n d t h e b l o c k s p u t i n t h e ir w a y a s
t o c o n ti n u e w it h th is in v e s t i g a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e A m i g o s m a t te r ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

H e i s n o t g o in g t o t e s t i fy w i t h r e g a r d to t h e

A m i g o s m a t te r a n o t h e r w i t n e s s w il l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t w i t h s o m e – a n o t h e r w i tn e s s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . H e w ill t e s ti fy …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t is o n ly t h e P a n d a y m a t t e r ?
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O n ly t h e P a n d a y m a t t e r y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I th in k i t is a n o t h e r – t h e o t h e r w i tn e s s w h o r e f e r s
t o b o th .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e P a n d a y m a tt e r a n d t h e A m i g o s m a t te r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

Page 2 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A M r Tr e v o r W h i t e is a fo r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a to r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d h e w i ll t e s ti f y a b o u t b o t h m a t t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is h e – is h e t h e n e x t w i t n e s s ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No he – he…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is th e n e x t w i t n e s s a ft e r t h is w i t n e s s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n e x t w i tn e s s is G e n e r a l L e b e y a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . M y – my – m y r e c o ll e c t io n w h e n I r e a d t h e
s t a te m e n t s u g g e s t in g – o h m y i m p r e s s i o n w a s t h a t w e m i g h t n o t ta k e
m o r e th a n th r e e h o u r s w i t h th is w i t n e s s . I s t h a t t o o o p t i m is ti c ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t h i n k t h a t t h a t i s t o o o p t i m is t ic C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I th i n k i t w i ll t a k e a li t tl e b i t l o n g e r.

I – I

e x p e c te d to b e m o s t o f t o d a y w i t h th is w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

W e ll w h a t I w a n t.

A l o t o f t h in g s w i ll n o t b e

c o n tr o v e r s i a l I t h i n k th a t h e w i ll b e t e s t if y i n g a b o u t .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a n t u s t o m o v e f a s t o n is s u e s t h a t a r e n o t

c o n tr o v e r s i a l.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r it is t h i s w i t n e s s o r a n o t h e r

w i t n e s s w h e r e I r e a l is e d t h a t o u t o f e v e r y t h in g s a i d in t h e a ff id a v i t

Page 3 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h e r e c o u ld o n ly b e o n e t h a t c o u ld p o s s i b l y b e c o n tr o v e r s i a l . T h e r e s t
c o u l d n o t b e d is p u t e d b y a n y b o d y b e c a u s e t h e y a r e v e r y m u c h a b o u t
correspondence and

a b o u t t h in g s

for

w h ic h

there seems

to

be

d o c u m e n t e d p r o o f o r j u s t p r o c e d u r a l i s s u e s o n i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . S o – t h e
b o t t o m l in e i s t h a t w e m u s t d o j u s ti c e t o e v e r y w it n e s s w h e r e t h is is
e v i d e n c e b u t w e d o n e e d to tr y a n d m o v e w i t h s p e e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d o n o t h a v e a ll t h e t i m e . S o – s o d o y o u r b e s t i n
r e g a r d to m a k i n g s u r e w e m o v e w i t h s p e e d . T h in g s t h a t a r e u n l ik e ly t o
10

b e u n d is p u t e d y o u m u s t n o t s ta y t o o l o n g o n t h e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n e v e r t h e le s s l e t u s d o j u s ti c e t o t h e e v i d e n c e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t.

A r e y o u r e a d y th a t th e w i tn e s s b e

sworn in?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. P l e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J o h a n n e s Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g .
20

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is r i g h t .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w il l g iv e w i ll b e
t h e t r u t h ; th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e
y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o h e l p m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o lo n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g h a v e y o u d e p o s e d
t o a n a ff id a v i t w h ic h y o u h a v e s u b m i t te d to th e c o m m i s s i o n ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e a ffi d a v i t i n fr o n t o f y o u i s t h a t y o u r
a ffi d a v i t a n d i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 1 8 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld w e n o t a d m i t t h is e x h i b i t fir s t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I d o n o t t h i n k i t h a s b e e n a d m it t e d b e fo r e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o I w a s g o i n g t o d o a f te r w a r d s b u t y o u a r e
c o r r e c t I s h o u ld d o i t b e fo r e .
CHAIRPERSON: The…
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

I f I m i g h t p la c e t h is e x h i b i t i n t o e v i d e n c e

C h a ir ? I t h a s b e e n m a r k e d s u b j e c t to y o u r a p p r o v a l E x h i b i t R R 1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr J o h a n n e s Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g

t o g e th e r w i th th e a n n e x u r e s to h is a ff id a v i t c o n ta i n e d i n th e l e v e r a r c h
fi le w ill b e m a r k e d E x h i b it R R 1 . J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 5 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g t h e a ffi d a v it in

fr o n t o f y o u , i s t h a t y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d o n p a g e 1 8 is th a t y o u r
s ig n a tu r e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d a r e y o u s a t i s f ie d t h a t th e c o n t e n t s o f th e
a ffi d a v i t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g c o u l d y o u p le a s e

t e ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t y o u r h i s to r y i n t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r I j o i n e d t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n

P o lic e S e r v ic e s i n 1 9 7 5 . I l e f t a g a in i n 1 9 7 7 a n d I r e - j o i n e d i n 1 9 8 2 .
U p u n t il th e l a t e ’8 0 ’s w h e n I w a s a t th e C o m m e r c i a l B r a n c h d u r in g t h a t
p e r i o d I w a s th e [ in a u d i b l e ] s t a ff . I w a s a t t h e C o m m e r c ia l B r a n c h a n d
t h e n a f t e r t h a t I w e n t to th e H e a t h C o m m is s i o n .

J u d g e H e a th a n d I

w o r k e d t h e r e fo r e i g h t e e n m o n t h s a n d th e n I c a m e b a c k t o D e p a r t m e n t
o f J u s tic e . I t w a s t h e D ir e c t o r a t e o f S e r i o u s E c o n o m ic O ff e n c e s w h ic h
o p e n e d i n K w a Z u l u N a ta l . A n d t h e n I s t a r t e d th e r e a n d th e n it b e c a m e
t h e S c o r p i o n s a n d t h e n u p u n ti l th e S c o r p i o n s w e r e c l o s in g p u s h e d
b a c k t o th e P o l ic e F o r c e . A n d I r e t ir e d i n 1 9 – 2 0 1 5 s o r r y a n d a b o u t 3 0
20

– 3 5 y e a r s ’ e x p e r i e n c e in c o m m e r c ia l i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Yo u – y o u m i g h t w i s h to r a is e y o u r
v o i c e a l i tt l e b i t w h e n y o u s p e a k s o I c a n h e a r y o u c le a r ly.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O k a y I w i ll tr y t o .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
h o w d id y o u c o m e t o b e in v o lv e d i n t h e c r i m i n a l c a s e in v o lv in g M r
Thoshan Panday?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir B r i g a d ie r K e m p w h o w a s t h e
P r o v i n c ia l Fi n a n c i a l H e a d o f K w a Zu l u N a t a l c a m e a c r o s s ir r e g u la r i ti e s .
H i s g u a r d o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d h e s u b m i t t e d a n in t e r i m r e p o r t t o …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t w h o – w h o w a s t h e fi n a n c i a l

head?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t is a B r i g a d ie r K e m p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Br ig a d i e r K e m p .
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B r i g a d ie r L a w r e n c e K e m p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y y e s L a w r e n c e C h a r l e s K e m p .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : K e m p t h a t is r i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y h e w a s t h e f in a n c i a l h e a d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O f P r o v in c i a l o f K w a Zu lu N a ta l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t h e n h e p u t a l l h i s fi n d i n g s in a
r e p o r t a n d h e h a n d e d h is r e p o r t t o th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t t h e
ti m e i t w a s L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M k u b e n i w h o g a v e it to G e n e r a l
Booysen.

20

T h e r e w e r e o th e r g e n e r a ls w h o – h e a ls o g a v e i t t o .

And

t h e n h e a s k e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o lo o k i n t o t h e m a t te r. Th e n G e n e r a l
B o o y s e n h a n d e d t h e r e p o r t o v e r t o B r ig a d i e r L a te g a n w h ic h i n t u r n
handed the report over to Colonel Soobramoney Wassserman who was
t h e f ir s t i n t h i s [ i n a u d i b l e ] o p s i n t h is m a t t e r. I t w a s a n i n q u ir y a t fir s t
a n d th e n tw o o r t h r e e m o n t h s a ft e r h e s ta r t e d t h e in q u i r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h e n y o u s a y it w a s a n i n q u ir y f ir s t .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

We did not open a CAS number

i m m e d i a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t t a lk e d t o fi n d o u t c e r ta i n i n f o r m a t i o n .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

To f i n d o u t m o r e e v i d e n c e w h a t –

y o u k n o w w h a t is a l l e g e d t o g e t m o r e e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d t h e n a f te r t h a t t w o o r th r e e

m o n th s t h e – w e h e a r d C o lo n e l W a s s e r m a n a n d S o o b r a m o n e y r e s i g n e d .
T h e n I t o o k o v e r th e m a t te r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o b e f o r e C o lo n e l S o o b r a m o n e y r e s i g n e d w a s i t t h e

t w o o f y o u , y o u a n d C o l o n e l S o o b r a m o n e y w h o w e r e ta s k e d w i t h d o i n g
t h e in q u ir y t h a t y o u ta lk a b o u t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e r e s ig n e d a n d t h e n y o u t o o k o v e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I t o o k o v e r C h a ir a n d th e n a ls o I

g o t o n t o t h e t e a m C o l o n e l S Y G o v e n d e r a n d C o l o n e l P h i ll ip H e r b s t .
T h e i n i t ia l in v e s ti g a t o r s o n t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n . W e s ta r t e d in v e s ti g a t in g
20

t h e m a t te r a n d th e a ll e g a t io n s m a d e b y B r i g a d ie r K e m p i n h is r e p o r t
a n d t o o u r k n o w l e d g e i t w a s a c u t a n d c le a r c a s e o f c o r r u p ti o n a n d
fr a u d . A f t e r w e a t ta i n e d s o m e e v id e n c e fr o m fi n a n c i a l o ff ic e . W e t h e n
o p e n e d u p a c a s e t h a t i s [ in a u d i b l e ] C A S 7 8 1 .

A n d th e n w e s ta r t e d

is s u i n g

fir s t

bank

s u b p o e n a ’s

for

banks

a ll u d e d

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th e n …

Page 8 of 162

a

ground

th e

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e j u s t to h e l p e v e r y o n e u n d e r s t a n d .

At that

s t a g e t h i s a p p e a r e d to b e a c a s e o f c o r r u p t i o n r e la t in g t o w h a t a n d
in v o lv i n g w h o m a t t h a t s ta g e ?
COLONEL

VA N

LOGGERENBERG:

C h a ir

it

appeared

that

the

c o r r u p ti o n w a s t h a t p o lic e m e m b e r s a t S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t
C o l o n e l N a v i n M a d h o e a n d C a p ta in N a r a n Vis s a n w e r e u s e d b y
businessman

To s h a n

Panday

to

acquire

te n d e r s

in

respect

of

a c c o m m o d a ti n g p o l ic e m e m b e r s a n d a ls o fo r t h e 2 0 1 0 s o c c e r w o r l d
c u p . W e d id s o m e p r e li m i n a r y i n q u ir i e s a t h o t e l s a n d b e d a n d b r e a k f a s t
10

places.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t h e n w e n o t ic e d t h a t t h e p r ic e s
c h a r g e d b y To s h a n P a n d a y ’s c o m p a n i e s a n d th e p r ic e o f t h e B & B
a c t u a ll y c h a r g e d To s h a n P a n d a y ’s c o m p a n i e s is 2 0 0 t o 4 0 0 % m o r e th a n
w h a t t h e p o l ic e a c t u a ll y p a i d f o r th e s t u ff .

A n d th e n fr o m t h a t w e

s t a r t e d in v e s t i g a t in g – a fu ll in v e s ti g a t io n o n t o th is m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h is s t a g e y o u s a id i t w a s n o w y o u r s e l f a n d w h o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : M y s e l f , C o lo n e l S Y G o v e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d C o l o n e l P h i ll ip H e r b s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e th r e e o f y o u ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e th r e e o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is d o in g th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d t o w h o m w e r e y o u r e p o r t in g a t t h a t s t a g e

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
in t e r m s o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A t th is s t a g e C h a ir w e w e r e

r e p o r t in g t o G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B u t I m u s t a ls o in f o r m y o u C h a ir

t h a t w e – w e a t t h a t s t a g e w e r e a t t h e a n t i- c o r r u p ti o n t a s k t e a m A C T T.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t h e h e a d o f t h e – w e ll o u r l o c a l
h e a d o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l – a h fr o m t h e A C T T w a s C o lo n e l J o n e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y y o u c a n – y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o lo n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g y o u

h a v e s a i d t h a t a ll c a s e s w e r e r e g is t e r e d w h ic h w e r e l i n k e d t o th is
in v e s t i g a t io n . C o u l d y o u g iv e t h e C h a ir a n o u tli n e o f e a c h o f t h e c a s e s
a n d e x p la in y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t . S o i f w e c o u l d s t a r t w i t h D u r b a n C e n tr a l
c a s e 7 8 1 . W h o w a s t h e i n v e s ti g a to r i n t h a t c a s e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir I w a s t h e m a i n in v e s ti g a t o r,

t h e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r i n th is c a s e . A n d th i s c a s e w h e n w e fu ll y s t a r te d
t o in v e s ti g a t in g th e m a t t e r w e s a w t h a t C o lo n e l N a v i n – C o l o n e l
M a d h o e w a s r e s p o n s i b l e t o a t t a i n a c c o m m o d a t i o n f o r m e m b e r s o f th e
20

p o li c e fo r c e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e 2 0 1 0 s o c c e r w o r ld c u p . T h e n w e s t a r te d
d i g g i n g i n to t h a t a n d w h a t w e d is c o v e r e d t h a t P r o v in c e h a d m e e ti n g s
f o r d i ff e r e n t s e c ti o n s w h i c h w a s r e q u ir e d f o r t h e 2 0 1 0 s o c c e r w o r l d c u p .
A n d t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g i t w a s k n o w n a s t h e S e c t io n 4 m e e ti n g . T h a t
w a s f o r t h e a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e g o o d s a n d a c c o m m o d a t io n f o r th e s o c c e r
w o r l d c u p . A n d t h e c h a ir o f t h a t c o m m is s io n S e c t i o n 4 w a s B r i g a d ie r

Page 10 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
G o v e n d e r fr o m P r o v i n c e H e a d O ffi c e . W h a t w e fo u n d i n th e m i n u t e s o f
e v e r y m e e ti n g is th a t C o lo n e l M a d h o e w a s r e s p o n s ib le t o a c q u i r e
a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r t h e m e m b e r s . B u t th e s e m e e ti n g s s ta r t e d t w e l v e –
fi f t e e n m o n t h s b e fo r e th e 2 0 1 0 s o c c e r w o r ld c u p . T h e y w e r e p r e p a r i n g
now for the soccer world cup.

And at the end of the day as their

m e e ti n g s p r o g r e s s e d a n d p r o g r e s s e d a n d i t c a m e t o n u m b e r 9 9 a t e v e r y
m e e ti n g C o l o n e l M a d h o e h a d a n e x c u s e t h a t h e c o u l d n o t g e t a n y j o y
fr o m h e a d o ffic e to a s s is t h i m o b t a i n i n g t h i s a c c o m m o d a t io n . B u t a s f a r
w e c o u l d g a t h e r t h a t e a c h p r o v i n c e w a s r e s p o n s i b le a n d t h e y c o u l d
10

a p p r o v e t h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n f o r t h e p o l ic e m e m b e r s i n th e i r p r o v i n c e .
A n d th e n w e d is c o v e r e d th a t a t n u m b e r 9 9 C o l o n e l M a d h o e u s e d
R e g u l a ti o n 1 6 – C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e if i t is 1 6 A 4 o r 1 6 1 4 f r o m t h e
Tr e a s u r y [ in a u d i b l e ] t h a t h e c a n n o m in a te s u p p li e s w i t h o u t p r o p e r
t e n d e r s a n d t h i n g s l ik e th a t . W h a t h e t h e n d i d is h e s u p p l i e d a m e m o
t o h e a d o ffic e s ta t in g t h a t h e h a s g o t t h e s e c o m p a n i e s G o l d C o a s t
Tr a d in g a n d h e m e n t io n e d o t h e r f e w c o m p a n i e s t h a t c a n s u p p ly
a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r th e p o lic e m e m b e r s th a t is r e q u i r e d f o r t h e s o c c e r
w o r l d c u p w h ic h i s g o i n g t o s ta r t in a c o u p le o f d a y s . A n d th e y a c t u a ll y
s a i d o k a y fi n e y o u c a n g o a h e a d . B u t i f y o u lo o k a t w h a t S u p p ly C h a i n

20

d i d – C o lo n e l M a d h o e d i d n o w w i t h C o l o n e l M a d h o e t h e r e w a s a n o th e r
C a p t a i n N a r a i n P r a s a d w o r k i n g w i t h C o l o n e l M a d h o e . Th e y i n a d v a n c e
is s u e d t e n d e r s t o B & B ’s a n d h o t e ls in K Z N f o r t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f
t h e m e m b e r s f o r t h e 2 0 1 0 s o c c e r w o r l d c u p . T h e r e w a s a h o t e l th a t t h e
p o li c e a lw a y s u s e i n K Z N i t is C o a s tl a n d s . I t is c a l le d t h e C o a s tl a n d s
H o t e l a n d w e a p p r o a c h e d t h e m a n d w e a p p r o a c h e d a l l th e o t h e r s a n d

Page 11 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h e y s a id y e s t h e y d i d g e t te n d e r d o c u m e n ts . T h e y d i d t e n d e r. T h e y
s e n t t h e te n d e r s b a c k b u t n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d w h e n th e y s e n t th e s e
t e n d e r s b a c k to S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t t o C a p t a i n N a r a i n P r a s a d .
A n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y i t w a s d is c o v e r e d t h a t a l th o u g h t h e y r e c e iv e d
t h e s e t e n d e r s t h e y j u s t k e p t t h e m u n d e r t h e c a r p e t . A n d t h e y d id n o t
m e n ti o n a n y t h i n g t o th e c o m m i t t e e o r to a n y b o d y w e h a v e r e c e iv e d
t e n d e r s b u t y o u m u s t p u s h t h r o u g h t h is e m e r g e n c y a p p lic a ti o n f o r t h e
a c c o m m o d a ti o n t o b e a p p r o v e d b y S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d [i n d is t in c t] .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s y o u r – I a m s o r r y. S o d i d y o u f o r m t h e v i e w
t h a t t h e r e w a s a n ill e g i t i m a te r e a s o n f o r n o t te ll in g a n y b o d y a b o u t
t h e s e s o t h a t u l ti m a t e ly th e y w o u l d s a y t h is w a s a n e m e r g e n c y s o w e
w e r e ju s t i fi e d i n n o t g o i n g o u t to t e n d e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r d u r i n g o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n a t

t h e e n d o f t h e d a y w e c o u ld p r o v e th a t C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d C a p t a i n
N a r a i n Pr a s a d d e li b e r a te ly k e p t t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n f r o m t h e p o lic e .
B e c a u s e i f y o u c a n s e e To s h a n P a n d a y p u r c h a s e d th e m s o m e g o o d s
a n d s e n t t h e m o n h o l i d a y s a n d h e w in e d a n d d i n e d th e m a n d th e y g o t
s o m e t h i n g f o r t h e ir f a v o u r s t h a t t h e y d i d f o r To s h a n P a n d a y. A n d y o u
20

c o u l d s e e th a t i n t h e M in u t e s o f t h e M e e t in g s . I m e a n I c a n a ls o s a y
t h a t d u r in g o u r in v e s t i g a t io n a t H e a d O f fi c e S u p p ly C h a in w e c a m e
a c r o s s a l e t te r w h e r e To s h a n P a n d a y f a x e d t o o u r S u p p ly C h a in
d e p a r t m e n t i n Pr e to r i a w h e r e a t t h e t i m e M a d h o e w r o t e th a t l e t te r
r e q u e s t in g t h is [ i n d is ti n c t ] p o i n t a t n u m b e r 9 9 i n t e r m s o f t h is
r e g u la t io n To s h a n P a n d a y i n a f a x q u o t e d t o o u r h e a d o ffic e t h a t h e h a s

Page 12 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
2 0 h o t e ls b lo c k b o o k e d f o r m e m b e r s a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e . B u t w h e n w e
a c t u a ll y p h y s ic a l ly d i d a n in v e s ti g a t io n w e n e v e r h a d o n e r o o m fr o m
a n y h o t e l o r a n y B & B f o r a n y m e m b e r. S o t h a t w a s a b l a ta n t li e . A n d
o n c e t h a t w a s a p p r o v e d b y h e a d o ff ic e t h e n w e h e a r d fr o m t h e B & B ’s
a n d th e h o t e l s t h a t w e a p p r o a c h e d th a t n o To s h a n P a n d a y c a m e a r o u n d
a n d o k a y i t w a s y o u k n o w t h e y w e r e c u t o u t o f t h e d e a l b u t th e y g o t to
m a k e t h e b e s t o f i t a n d e v e n tu a lly th e y g a v e u s s o m e b u s in e s s a n d t h a t
is th e – h o w i t e n d e d u p t h a t To s h a n P a n d a y g o t t h e c o n tr a c t f o r
a c c o m m o d a ti o n .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l c o u ld y o u t e l l t h e C h a i r d i d t h i s

C o a s t la n d H o t e l t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o , d i d t h e y r e s p o n d to t h e t e n d e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir I p e r s o n a l ly w e n t a n d

saw them.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
m e t h e te n d e r s th a t t h e y r e c e i v e d .

I s a w t h e D ir e c to r.

They showed

T h e s h o w e d m e t h e te n d e r s th a t

t h e y fo r w a r d e d t o S u p p l y C h a in M a n a g e m e n t a n d y e s t h e y d id r e s p o n d
t o t h e te n d e r s t h e y r e c e iv e d a n d a c t u a l ly i n f a c t s e n t i t b a c k t o C o l o n e l
N a r a n k a to C a p t a i n N a r a n k a S ir.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w e r e th e y u lt i m a t e ly u s e d to p r o v i d e

a c c o m m o d a ti o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s To s h a n P a n d a y a c t u a l ly u s e d

t h e m t o p r o v i d e a c c o m m o d a t i o n f o r th e p o l ic e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t w a s th e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e

t e n d e r – I m e a n t h e in v o ic e s h e c h a r g e d t h e p o lic e f o r a c c o m m o d a ti o n

Page 13 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a t t h i s h o te l a n d th e te n d e r t h a t h a d b e e n p r o v i d e d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Yo u s e e w h a t To s h a n P a n d a y d i d is
h e – i f th e h o t e l o r th e B & B a s k s h i m – I q u o te t a k e a n e x a m p l e .
R1000.00 a room for two members.

H e w o u l d c h a r g e t h e p o l ic e

R 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 a r o o m . A n d t h a t is w h a t h e d id w i t h a l l t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n .
Sometimes more than double.
price of the room.

S o m e ti m e s 4 0 0 % m o r e t h a n t h e a c t u a l

H e c h a r g e d t h e p o li c e .

A n d t h o s e i n v o ic e s w e r e

s ig n e d o ff b y S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t N a r a in P r a s a d a n d M a d h o e
a n d h e g o t p a i d f o r t h e m . I m e a n d u r i n g o u r s e a r c h e s in [ i n a u d i b l e ] w e
10

a ls o a p p l i e d fo r s e a r c h e s a n d s e iz e s , w a r r a n t s .
To s h a n P a n d a y.

A l l t h e p r e m is e s o f

Th e p r e m is e s o f o u r S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t a t

P r o v i n c e , f in a n c e a t Pr o v in c e , t h e m e m b e r s w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d , th e i r
personal homes.

S u p p li e d – w e g o t s e a r c h w a r r a n ts , s e a r c h a n d

s e i z u r e w a r r a n ts . To s h a n P a n d a y o ffi c e s . W e d id a l l t h e s e a r c h e s a n d
s e i z e r s a n d i n To s h a n P a n d a y ’s o n e o ff ic e w e c a m e a c r o s s a n A 5 h a r d
c o v e r b l a c k b o o k . H e h a s g o t a – h i s c o m p a n y n a m e s a n d i t is a l l w i t h
c o l u m n s t h i s t e n d e r h e w o u l d k n o w o k a y B a l li t o n e s g o t th e t e n d e r.
T h e n h e w o u l d s a y th e r e o k a y G o l d C o a s t d i d n o t g e t t h e t e n d e r. T h e n
y o u g o t t h e a c tu a l p r ic e a n d th e n h e s a y s o k a y t h is is B a l li t o n e s p r ic e .
20

I f y o u c a n s e e th e p r i c e y o u [ i n a u d i b l e ] . H e k e p t a c t u a ll y – k e p t a
r e c o r d o f t h a t i n h i s p o s s e s s io n a n d [i n d i s t in c t ] a ll h a n d e d o v e r t o P r i c e
Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s w h o d i d t h e fi n a n c i a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n s in t o t h i s . A n d
t h e n C h a ir w e a l s o d is c o v e r e d t h a t – I a c t u a ll y t o o k a n a ff id a v i t fr o m a
c o m p a n y i n P in e t o w n w h o s u p p li e d w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t ? G e n e r a to r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a y o u c a n l o o k a t y o u r s t a t e m e n t to r e fr e s h y o u r

Page 14 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
m e m o r y i f y o u n e e d t o d o th a t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ja.

C h a ir I a p p r o a c h e d t h e

c o m p a n y w h e r e To s h a n P a n d a y b o u g h t g e n e r a t o r s fo r t h e s o c c e r 2 0 1 0
w o r l d c u p b u t i t is s m a ll g e n e r a t o r s , i t i s n o t b ig g e n e r a to r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
g e n e r a to r w a s R 4 ,9 0 0 .0 0 .

A n d t h e p r ic e h e p a id f o r e a c h

I t o o k th e a ffi d a v i t o f th a t c o m p a n y.

And

t h e n I c h e c k e d u p a n d fo ll o w e d u p o n w h a t d id h e c h a r g e t h e p o l ic e f o r
t h e g e n e r a t o r, t h a t s a m e g e n e r a t o r. A n d h e c h a r g e d th e p o li c e b e t w e e n
10

R 9 2 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d R 9 7 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 f o r o n e g e n e r a to r. A n d t h a t w a s s i g n e d o ff
b y S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t a n d To s h a n P a n d a y g o t p a i d fo r i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e – h e w o u ld h a v e p a i d a b o u t h o w m u c h t o – f o r
t h e g e n e r a to r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

R 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 p e r g e n e r a t o r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e n h e c h a r g e d S A P S a b o u t R 9 2 ,0 0 0 .0 0 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

F o r o n e a n d t h e p o l ic e p a i d th e m .

I t is r id ic u l o u s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m t o s a y t h e l e a s t . S h o o . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d M s W e n tz e l . Ye s y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u e x p la i n to t h e C h a ir h o w Mr P a n d a y
u s e d h is v a r io u s c o m p a n i e s t o c a r r y o u t c o v e r q u o t in g t o m a k e s u r e
t h a t w h ic h e v e r o f – w o u l d y o u ju s t e x p la in it in y o u r o w n w o r d s ?

Page 15 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O k a y C h a ir i n t h e b e g i n n i n g w h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

J a it is b e t t e r t h a t y o u le t h i m j u s t e x p l a i n .

Do not

le a d h i m .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir in th e b e g i n n i n g To s h a n

P a n d a y a p p r o a c h e d S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t w it h I t h i n k it w a s f iv e
or six companies.

I t w a s G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g , U n i te M z a n ts i Tr a d i n g ,

Va lo t o n e , B a v o s a t t h e n t h e r e is o n e – i f I c a n j u s t r e fr e s h m y m e m o r y
h e r e . K a s e e v Tr a d e r s . N o w G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g w a s t h e o n ly C C – h e
w a s th e o n ly m e m b e r o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g . Th e Va l o t o n e a n d a ll t h e
10

o th e r s w e r e in h is w i f e ’s n a m e o r h i s s is t e r ’s n a m e a n d h i s b r o th e r - in la w ’s n a m e .

T h o s e d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m C I P S h e g a v e th e m t o t h e

p o li c e . A n d o n c e t h e s e c o m p a n i e s w e r e r e g is t e r e d o n t h e p o lic e d a t a
b a s e w h a t h e d i d h e c h a n g e d th e f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t o f t h e C C ’s w i th
C P I S a n d h e m a d e t h a t h e w a s t h e o n ly d i r e c t o r. H e c h a n g e d i t s o t h a t
h e is t h e o n l y d ir e c to r o f a l l t h o s e c o m p a n i e s w h ic h h e h a d g i v e n to t h e
p o li c e .

S o t h e p o lic e a t h e a d o ff ic e n e v e r g o t t h a t i n f o r m a t io n fr o m

P a n d a y th a t t h i s w a s c h a n g e d o r e v e n o u r P r o v i n c ia l .

But our

P r o v i n c ia l w i th t h e p o l ic e m e n t h e r e t h e y k n e w i t w a s To s h a n P a n d a y ’s
c o m p a n i e s . B u t – s o h e c o n tr o l le d e a c h a n d e v e r y c o m p a n y a t t h e e n d
20

o f t h e d a y.

H o w i t c a n b e [i n d is t in c t] b y Tr e v o r W h i t e fr o m P r ic e

Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r a s w e l l . H e c o n tr o ll e d a ll t h e f in a n c e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d t h e s e c o m p a n ie s p u r p o r t t o c o m p e t e
for tenders?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir t h e y d id a n d a t t h e e n d
o f th e d a y h e a c t u a l ly k e p t n o t e w h ic h c o m p a n i e s c o m p e t e d f o r a

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
s p e c i f ic te n d e r a n d h e a l s o m a d e n o te o f w h ic h c o m p a n y w o n t h e
t e n d e r. A n d t h e n e x t t e n d e r h e w o u ld u s e a n o t h e r c o m p a n y a n d t h a t i s
h o w h e w o u l d p la y t h e o n e o ff a g a in s t t h e o t h e r. B u t h e w o u l d g e t a ll
t h e t e n d e r s a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e r e c o r d e d a ll o f t h i s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Was that in the black book that was

d is c u s s e d ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t is in t h e
b o o k w e s e iz e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And could you…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e th e s e – I a m s o r r y. T h e s e v a r i o u s e n ti t ie s t h a t
h e w a s u s i n g d i d t h e y m a y b e u s e o n e o f h i s – s h e d o f h is – w e r e t h e y –
w e r e t h e a d d r e s s e s g iv e n f o r t h e m , w a s i t o n e a d d r e s s ? [ In d i s ti n c t ] .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir i t i s – a l l h is o n e a d d r e s s a n d
t h a t i s To s h a n P a n d a y ’s b u s i n e s s a d d r e s s in U m h l a n g a R o c k s .
CHAIRPERSON: They used one address?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e y h a d u s e d o n e a d d r e s s j a .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d c o u l d y o u e x p la in t o t h e C h a ir h o w

Colonel Madhoe…
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – I a m s o r r y.

That – that should suggest that

a n y o n e w h o c o n s i d e r e d t h e ir b id s s h o u l d h a v e f o u n d th a t s u s p ic io u s , is
it n o t ?

Page 17 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir b u t t h e t h i n g is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : If – i f th e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I n t h e p r o p e r s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f c o m p a n ie s t h a t a r e c o m p e ti n g f o r a b i d a r e s h a r i n g
the same address.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s b u t y o u s e e t h e y d id n o t k n o w
t h a t . T h a t d i d n o t k n o w t h a t . B u t t h e p o l ic e m e n k n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w o u ld n o t th e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t s – w o u l d th e y n o t
r e fl e c t th e a d d r e s s o f th e c o m p a n y t h a t is b i d d i n g f o r th e w o r k ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S u r e C h a ir t h a t w a s a l l d e a l t w i th

b y C o lo n e l M a d h o e a n d C a p t a i n N a r a i n P r a s a d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th e o n e s w h o w e r e – w h o w o u ld h a v e s e e n t h is

w e r e p e o p l e w h o w e r e w o r k in g w i t h h i m ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t – b u t t a lk i n g g e n e r a l ly n o b o d y w h o h a d t o
m a k e th o s e d e c is io n c o u ld n o t h a v e p ic k e d i t u p i f t h e y d i d t h e ir j o b
p r o p e r ly ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . A n d c o u l d y o u ju s t e x p l a i n t o th e
C h a ir h o w C o l o n e l M a d h o e h e l p e d M r P a n d a y g e t h i s c o m p a n i e s

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
r e g is t e r e d o n t h e d a t a b a s e fo r t h e p o l ic e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir w h a t w e d is c o v e r e d i s th a t

o n c e To s h a n P a n d a y …
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e th e w a y to a s k t h a t q u e s t i o n M s W e n tz e l is

w h e t h e r C o l o n e l M a d h o e h a d a n y r o le t h a t h e p l a y e d i n – d i d y o u s a y
r e g is tr a ti o n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d t h e n h o w h e h e l p e d ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e is th a t

C o l o n e l M a d h o e s u p p l ie d h i m w i th t h e a p p l ic a t i o n s f o r t h e r e g i s tr a t io n
o n t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t d a t a b a s i s .

O n c e C o lo n e l M a d h o e

r e c e i v e d t h o s e d o c u m e n ta t io n s fr o m th o s e c o m p a n ie s fr o m To s h a n
P a n d a y h e g a v e i t t o a m e m b e r w h o d r o v e u p t o Pr e t o r i a b y v e h i c l e –
n o t p u t ti n g i t th r o u g h t h e n o r m a l c h a n n e ls – d r o v e u p b y v e h ic l e t o
P r e t o r i a S u p p l y C h a in M a n a g e m e n t a n d a r r a n g e d f o r i t b e p u t o n t h e
d a t a b a s e a s a p , li k e t h e n e x t d a y. S o i t n e v e r w e n t th r o u g h t h e p r o p e r
c h a n n e l s t o p u t o n t h e d a t a b a s e in P r e t o r i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p r o p e r c h a n n e ls ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S o y o u n o r m a l ly s e n d it b y p o s t .

T h e r e c e iv in g m e m o ’s I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e i n te r n a l p r o v i n c i a l a n d
n a t io n a l S u p p ly C h a i n – h o w a c t u a lly t h e y o p e r a t e b u t I – I p r e s u m e
n o b o d y w il l d r iv e u p e v e r y d a y w i th a p p li c a ti o n s t o P r e t o r i a a n d s a y p u t
t h is o n t h e d a ta b a s e i m m e d i a t e ly. I m e a n I d o n o t t h in k i t w o r k s th a t
w a y.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l m a y b e h e th o u g h t t h e p r o v i n c ia l p e o p l e a r e
t o o s l o w.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : M a y b e th e y w e r e t o o s l o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir I h a v e b e e n a p p r o a c h e d t o a s k fo r a

t e c h n ic a l a d jo u r n m e n t .

A p p a r e n tly t h e r e is a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e

tr a n s c r ip t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t s o ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Recording.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t u s t a k e a – h o p e fu ll y a f iv e m i n u t e s

a d j o u r n m e n t t o a ll o w th e t e c h n i c i a n s t o a tt e n d to th e p r o b l e m .

We

adjourn.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g ,
d i d y o u in v o lv e d f o r e n s i c i n v e s ti g a to r s i n t h e in v e s ti g a t io n ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, w h a t w e d i d fr o m t h e o u ts e t
a n d w e s a w th e ( i n a u d i b le ) o f d o c u m e n t a t io n a n d w o r k t h a t h a s g o t to
b e d o n e i n th is in v e s ti g a t io n .

I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t 7 8 1 i ts e lf .

We

a p p r o a c h e d t h e H e a d O ff ic e a n d r e q u e s t e d f o r a f o r e n s i c a u d it to a s s i s t
t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . I h a v e s u b m i t t e d t h e m a n d a t e to o u r H e a d O ff ic e th a t
w a s p u t o u t o n t e n d e r a n d a f o r e n s i c a u d it in g c o m p a n y w a s a p p o in t e d

Page 20 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
w h ic h I d i d n o t k n o w t h e n . F r o m s o m e w h e r e in K Z N . Th e y c a m e a n d
v is it e d u s a n d i t w a s s u r e th a t th e y c o u l d n o t d o t h e j o b .
T h e n w e w r o te th e l e t t e r b a c k to o u r H e a d O ffi c e p u t i t o n
t e n d e r a g a in a n d t h a t is w h e n P r ic e w a t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s w a s a w a r d e d
t h e t e n d e r a n d th e n w e m e t u p w i th t h e m a n d t h e m a n d a te w a s g iv e n to
t h e m - e x p l a i n e d w h a t w e w a n t e d . D u r in g t h e s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e s a l l
t h e s t u ff th a t w a s s e a r c h e d - a ll t h e - a ll t h e e v id e n c e th a t w e g o t w a s
h a n d e d o v e r to t h e m . E v e r y t h i n g w a s g i v e n t o th e m .
We served 205s on numerous bank accounts - numerous
10

c r e d i t c a r d a c c o u n ts . I t w a s a ll g iv e n t o t h e m . A t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y
7 8 1 - t h e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t is 3 7 2 p a g e s . T h e d o c k e ts h a v e g o t o v e r 2 2 0
a ffi d a v i ts a n d th e e x h ib i t f il e s fo r t h e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t i s 2 0 l e v e r a r c h
fi le s .

S o i t is a b i g - i t i s a b i g c a s e a n d th e e v i d e n c e is o v e r -

o v e r w h e l mi n g . I t i s o v e r w h e l m i n g . I j u s t w a n t t o m e n ti o n th a t t o y o u
C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o u l d y o u t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t

b e n e fi ts y o u f o u n d p e o p le i n v o l v e d in t h i s m a t te r r e c e i v e d fr o m
Mr Panday?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

L e t u s a s k th a t d i ff e r e n tl y.

W a s th e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t

w a s r e c e iv e d th a t m o t iv a t e d s o m e o f t h e p e o p le i n th e S A P S t o
c o o p e r a t e w it h - w i t h P a n d a y - M r P a n d a y ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir.

At the end of the day

w e d is c o v e r e d t h a t - w e s t a r t b y t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r.
a r r a n g e d a s u r p r i s e b ir th d a y p a r t y f o r h e r h u s b a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 21 of 162

She

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A t t h e D i s h R e s t a u r a n t i n U m h la n g a
Rocks.
ti m e .

H e r h u s b a n d w a s a B r i g a d i e r a l s o in th e p o l ic e f o r c e a t t h a t
D u r i n g o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w e d i s c o v e r e d t h a t th e D is h w a s p a i d

f o r - a d e p o s i t w a s p a id o f R 1 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 b y T h o s h a n P a n d a y.

The

b a l a n c e o f t h e b ir th d a y p a r t y - t h a t is e v e r y t h i n g i n c lu s iv e a D J .
We discovered that that was paid by Thoshan on - on
T h o s h a n P a n d a y ’s c r e d i t c a r d a n d I w e n t t o t h e D i s h R e s t a u r a n t a n d I
t h e n h a v e a l e t t e r fr o m M r Fr e d d y Si n g h . S t a te i n h i s a ffi d a v i t a s I t o l d
y o u n o w C h a ir a n d f u r t h e r m o r e th e b ir t h d a y p a r ty - i f I c a n r e c a ll i t 10

w a s o n 2 9 M a y, b u t T h o s h a n P a n d a y c a m e a ft e r w a r d s to t h e M a n a g e r a t
t h e d e s k a n d a s k e d h i m to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 2 9 M a y w h a t y e a r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir t h a t w a s - i t w a s 2 0 …
CHAIRPERSON: 2010? The World Cup was in 2010.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : It w a s a ft e r th a t C h a ir. L e t m e ju s t
…
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I w i ll g e t t o th e d a t e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B u t w h a t T h o s h a n P a n d a y a ls o d i d .
H e - a f t e r th e b ir t h d a y p a r t y h e w e n t b a c k to t h e D i s h R e s ta u r a n t a n d
s p o k e to t h e M a n a g e r a n d h e a s k e d t h e M a n a g e r t o g iv e h i m a n e w
in v o ic e i n t h e n a m e o f t h e P C . I t is … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: That was now …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N g o b e n i .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON: The name of the Provincial Commissioner?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d h e m u s t a ls o p u t h i s n a m e b y
t h e - w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t ?

A s a - b y t h e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r o n th e

in v o ic e . I n o t h e r w o r d s w h a t - w h a t I c o u ld g a t h e r w h a t i t w o u ld s h o w
is th a t T h o s h a n P a n d a y c o u l d u s e t h i s a s a b e n e f i t fo r ta x p u r p o s e s o r
it c o u l d s h o w th a t t h e P C a c t u a ll y a p p o i n t e d h i m to a r r a n g e t h is
b ir t h d a y p a r t y t o c o v e r f o r t h a t, b u t w it h P r i c e w a te r h o u s e C o o p e r s
10

in v e s t i g a t io n n o m o n e y c o u l d b e tr a c e d P a id fr o m t h e P C o r h e r
husband

to

any

of

T h o s h a n P a n d a y ’s

accounts

and

then

C o l o n e l M a d h o e w e n t o n h o li d a y i n C a p e To w n w it h h is fa m i ly a n d w e
d is c o v e r e d th a t T h o s h a n P a n d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d a r o u n d w h e n w o u l d t h a t h o li d a y h a v e b e e n ?
M s W e n t z e l y o u c a n g u id e h i m i n t e r m s o f …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e h e m i g h t f in d c e r t a i n i n fo r m a ti o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t p a g e 4 y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

J u s t fi r s tly ju s t f o r c l a r it y i n p a r a g r a p h s 5 . 7

a n d 5 . 8 y o u d e a l w i t h t h is p a r ty a n d t h e d a t e is 2 9 M a y 2 0 1 0 …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

But

now

you

are

d e a li n g

w i th

5 .1 2

-

C o l o n e l M a d h o e . Yo u c a n h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y
on page 4.

Page 23 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir

that

is

correct.

C o l o n e l M a d h o e w e n t t o C a p e To w n w it h h i s f a m ily o n h o l i d a y w h ic h
T h o s h a n P a n d a y p a id f o r. T h a t w a s - t h a t is a l s o in t h e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t
a n d t h e n w h a t T h o s h a n P a n d a y a ls o d id .
Colonel Madhoe.

H e b o u g h t a v e h ic l e fo r

W e a l s o g o t a ffi d a v i ts t o t h a t e ffe c t i n th e f o r e n s ic

r e p o r t a n d C a p t a i n N a r a in p e r s a d w a s b o u g h t a t r e a d m il l w h i c h w a s
d e li v e r e d a t h i s h o u s e .
We got that evidence in the

fo r e n s ic r e p o r t a n d a ls o

C a p t a i n N a r a in p e r s a d ’s s o n w a s s t u d y i n g a t th e c o ll e g e i n D u r b a n a n d
10

w e d i s c o v e r e d th a t T h o s h a n P a n d a y p a i d f o r th e c o l le g e f e e s f o r
N a r a i n p e r s a d ’s s o n a n d t h e n a ls o fu r t h e r o n w h e n w e l o o k e d a t
Colonel (inaudible) …
CHAIRPERSON: Do - do - do you remem ber what he paid in terms of
c o l l e g e fe e s o r …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: Do - do you not have that at hand?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S i r, I t h i n k t h e c o l le g e f e e s w a s i n
t h e r e g i o n o f R 2 9 0 0 0 ,0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s a n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r h o w m u c h t h e h o l id a y

w o u ld h a v e c o s t t h a t C o l o n e l M a d h o e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To o k t o - t o C a p e To w n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir, I d o n o t h a v e th e e x a c t

fi g u r e w it h m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u h a v e g o t i t s o m e w h e r e i n t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t

Page 24 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
…
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . I d o . I t w il l b e i n th e f o r e n s ic
report.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

If we do not have it here.

If that can be

o b t a i n e d s o t h a t o n e g e t s a p ic t u r e o f h o w m u c h w a s s p e n t o n …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir - C h a ir I b e l i e v e th e F o r e n s i c
A u d i t o r - Tr e v o r W h i t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll d e a l w i th t h o s e t h i n g s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H e is s ti ll c o m i n g t o te s t i fy …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . H e is c o m i n g . J a .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d h e is th e a u t h o r o f t h a t r e p o r t .
S o h e w i ll h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o h e h a s g o t a ll o f t h a t th e r e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w ill a l l - h a v e a l l o f t h a t o n

there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C o lo n e l c o u l d y o u
n o w p l e a s e t e ll th e C h a ir a b o u t c a s e n u m b e r 3 8 6 . W h a t d id t h a t r e la t e
to?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: We are now at page 5?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: We are at page 5.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir, i t w a s d e c id e d t h a t w e t a k e

t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e s u r p r is e p a r ty.

The main docket - 781 - and

Page 25 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
r e g is t e r a s e p a r a te c a s e j u s t f o r th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th e - th e s u r p r i s e p a r ty a g a i n i s t h e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B ir t h d a y p a r t y …
CHAIRPERSON:

B ir t h d a y p a r t y o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r ’s

husband?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o a d o c k e t w a s r e g is te r e d j u s t f o r
that.
10

The

i n v e s ti g a ti n g

C o l o n e l P h il li p H e r b s t .

o ffic e r

appointed

to

do

that

was

S o h e w a s a c t u a l ly th e o n e d e a l i n g w i t h th a t

m a t t e r a s I w a s c o n c e n tr a ti n g o n 7 8 1 a n d fr o m 7 8 1 d i ffe r e n t c a s e s
came about, but I kept on 781.
T h e o th e r in v e s ti g a t o r s k e p t o n th e o t h e r c a s e s , b u t w h a t I
k n o w - th e k n o w l e d g e th a t I k n o w o f 3 8 6 is t h a t t h e d o c k e t w a s o p e n e d .
T h a t e v i d e n c e w a s p r e s e n t e d to - i t w a s A d v o c a te M z i n y a t h i a t t h e ti m e
w h e n h e w a s s ti ll h e r e a t t h e p r o v i n c e i n K Z N a n d th e n i t w a s - h e
a g r e e d t h a t t h e r e is e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t o p r o s e c u te th is m a t te r a n d th e n
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y t h e e v id e n c e o f A d v o c a t e M z in y a t h i ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

The

evidence

was

given

-

Colonel Herbst approached Advocate Mzinyathi …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d h is v ie w w a s th a t t h e r e i s

Page 26 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
p r i m a f a c ie - t h e r e is e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t o p r o s e c u te t h e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B u t h e r e s i g n e d - o r h e n o lo n g e r

le f t - h e l e f t t h e o ffic e a n d t h e n A d v o c a t e N o k o t o o k o v e r - t o o k o v e r
the

o ffic e

of

KZN

and

th e n

t h is

docket

was

handed

to

A d v o c a t e W e n d y G r e e f a n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y s h e f e l t th a t t h e r e i s
n o t s u ff ic i e n t e v i d e n c e to c o n ti n u e w i t h th i s m a t t e r.
W e w e r e o b v io u s ly n o t s h a r in g th e s a m e v i e w s a s s h e w a s
s h a r i n g , b u t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g th a t w e c o u ld d o a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n t e r m s o f t h e r e a s o n s w o u ld t h a t b e th e r e a s o n s
t h a t w e r e g i v e n to s a y t h e r e w a s n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t h e r e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Would that be covered by Mr White?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s .

That would - yes.

T h a t is

a n o t h e r r e p o r t C h a ir. S h e - s h e fe l t t h a t t h e r e is in s u ff ic i e n t e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S h e f e l t th a t th e r e i s n o t e n o u g h

e v i d e n c e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . S o t h e r e is a r e p o r t t h a t …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a . It is i n t h e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y e l s e w i ll … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . I t is in t h e d o c k e t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

A lr i g h t,

but

t e ll

me

your

own

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h e r e a s o n s w e r e t h a t w e r e g iv e n f o r th a t

Page 27 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
c o n c l u s i o n . I f y o u a r e a b l e to .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, m y v i e w is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In o t h e r w o r d s w h e n y o u w e r e to ld w h a t t h e r e a s o n s
w e r e w h y s h e s a i d t h e r e w a s n o t e n o u g h e v id e n c e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u r o w n t h i n k in g w a s
when you were told that.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e th e r y o u in a g r e e m e n t y o u a r e n o t in a g r e e m e n t

o r w h a t w e r e th e m a i n f e a t u r e s o f h e r r e a s o n s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir m y v i e w i s t h a t I t h i n k a l l t h e
d o c k e ts s h o u l d s t a y o n e d o c k e t a n d w e s h o u ld m a k e it a r a c k e t e e r i n g
c a s e . I f y o u t a k e i n d iv i d u a l c a s e s a w a y t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g
t h a t i n d i v i d u a l c a s e a n d w h a t is g o in g a r o u n d i n t h e r a c k e t e e r in g
d o c k e t is n o t t h e r e . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I a m s a y in g ? I n th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u l o s e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u l o s e t h e c h a in ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is r i g h t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . I f y o u s e p a r a te t h e m , b u t if y o u l o o k a t t h e m
t o g e th e r …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I f y o u lo o k a t t h e m t o g e th e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u w il l g e t t h e p r o p e r p ic t u r e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Yo u w i ll g e t a p r o p e r p ic t u r e o f

a c t u a ll y w h a t w a s g o in g o n . J a .

Page 28 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t w a s m y f e e l in g a b o u t t h is

c a s e i n th e fir s t p la c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. So did - did you think that that may have been
t h e r e a s o n w h y s h e m i g h t n o t h a v e s e e n th a t th e r e w a s e n o u g h
evidence?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . I h a v e - I h a v e - I w o u l d s a y
t h a t . Ye s C h a ir. T h a t s h e c o u ld h a v e th o u g h t a b o u t t h a t a n d I w o u l d
n o t h o l d i t a g a i n s t h e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n th a t t h e c a s e s w e r e

s e p a r a t e d . Is it n o t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s .

Ye s .

S h e k n e w a b o u t th e

c a s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And if she was experienced enough would she not

h a v e k n o w n th a t l o o k i n g a t o n e a n d n o t lo o k in g a t a l l o f t h e m c o u l d
d is a d v a n t a g e h e r a n d th e r e fo r e s h o u l d n o t h e - c o u l d s h e n o t h a v e s a i d
lo o k I w a n t t o s e e e v e r y t h in g ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

She - she - Chair she could have,

b u t I c a n n o t a n s w e r fo r h e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, but you - you see you have been around.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a v e b e e n i n - in t h e p o li c e s e r v ic e f o r a lo n g

ti m e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h m a n y p r o s e c u to r s . I h a v e n o

Page 29 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
d o u b t.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w a n d y o u h a v e a - y o u k n o w a r e a s o n a b l e

s e n s e o f w h e n t h e r e is a c a s e a n d w h e n t h e r e is n o t a c a s e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r m o s t o f th e c a s e s I a m s u r e t h a t y o u h a v e d e a l t
with.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Now what I am asking is whether when somebody in
10

h e r p o s i ti o n l o o k s a t a c a s e i n i s o la t io n w h e n w i t h y o u r o w n k n o w l e d g e
y o u k n o w t h a t i f s o m e b o d y lo o k s a t t h a t c a s e a l o n e . T h e y w i ll n o t g e t a
p r o p e r p ic t u r e . Th e y w ill n e e d to lo o k a t t h a t o th e r o n e a s w e ll .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y i n h e r p o s i ti o n w h o d e c i d e s n o t t o lo o k a t
t h e o th e r c a s e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th a t n o t s a y t o y o u , b u t h o w c o u ld s h e c o n f in e
h e r s e l f t o th is c a s e , b e c a u s e w it h h e r e x p e r i e n c e i n th a t p o s i t io n s h e
s h o u l d k n o w y o u c a n n o t g e t a fu ll p ic t u r e b y lo o k i n g a t o n e c a s e .

20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s .

No.

I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir.

S h e - s h e s h o u l d h a v e o r s h e c o u l d h a v e g o n e a n d l o o k e d a t t h e w h o le
p ic t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I n s t e a d o f j u s t m a k in g a d e c i s i o n

on this …

Page 30 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O n e - o n e c a s e a l o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g j u s t t o g iv e

t h e C h a ir a b i g g e r p i c t u r e w e w i ll d e a l w i t h i t i n m o r e d e t a il i n d u e
course.

W h a t w a s t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s in v o lv e m e n t in t h is

in v e s t i g a t io n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

She

was

the

suspect

in

th is

in v e s t i g a t io n .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: But why was she a suspect?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B e c a u s e i t w a s d is c o v e r e d t h a t

T h o s h a n P a n d a y p a i d fo r a ll t h e s e e x p e n s e s a n d t h e r e is n o w a y t h a t
she appointed him as an agent to pay for these expenses and it can
o n ly b o il d o w n t o s h e is t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m a n d e r.

H e g o t a ll t h e

tenders.
I mean she knew what was going on, because there is
e v i d e n c e t h a t s h e a c t u a l ly tr i e d to s t o p t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d y e s . S h e
w a s t h e s u s p e c t i n t h e m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t - t h a t is c a s e n u m b e r 3 8 6 ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is r i g h t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w a s s h e o n ly th e s u s p e c t o r w a s M r P a n d a y a ls o

another suspect?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e a n d Mr P a n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e th e s u s p e c ts i n t h e m a tt e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 31 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t a n d 7 8 1 w a s it o n l y Mr P a n d a y w h o w a s
a - a suspect?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o . C h a ir 7 8 1 w a s t h e P C .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t w a s M a jo r G e n e r a l - I w i ll g e t t o
h is

name

n o w.

C o lo n e l M a d h o e .

T h o s h a n P a n d a y ’s w i f e .

C a p t a in N a r a i n p e r s a d .

T h o s h a n P a n d a y ’s s i s te r.

T h o s h a n P a n d a y ’s

b r o t h e r - in - l a w. A ll th e c o m p a n ie s m e n ti o n e d . T h e y w e r e a ll l is te d a s
t h e s u s p e c ts in t h e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t - t h a t o n e - t h a t c a s e - c a s e 7 8 1 r e l a t e d t o t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t is s u e s …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h is o n e r e l a te d t o t h e b ir th d a y p a r ty a n d

s t o p p in g o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B u t C h a ir, I - I ju s t w a n t t o t e ll y o u .
3 2 8 - t h e e v id e n c e fr o m 3 2 8 w a s a c t u a ll y e x tr a c t e d fr o m t h e f o r e n s i c
r e p o r t in 7 8 1 t o r e g is te r a s e p a r a t e c a s e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t 3 2 8 n o w. Yo u m e a n 3 8 6 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h r e e - w h ic h i s t h e p a r ty d o c k e t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I a s k e d y o u a b o u t 3 8 6 . I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 5.
CHAIRPERSON: We are on the same page.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t is p a g e 5 ?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 8 6 is p a g e 5 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e b ir t h d a y p a r t y.

Ye s .

The

b ir t h d a y p a r ty - 3 8 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o w h e n y o u s a i d 3 2 8 y o u m e a n t 3 8 6 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h is e v i d e n c e w a s ta k e n fr o m t h e

f o r e n s ic r e p o r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o f M r W h i te .
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

F r o m t h e a ffi d a v it s w e o b t a in e d i n

781.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e n i t i s … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s li k e a n o ffs h o o t o f … ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g j u s t to

c la r i fy i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 2 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t. M e n ti o n
t h e r e i s m a d e o f A d v o c a t e M lo ts h w a . W h a t w a s h i s i n v o l v e m e n t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w a s t h e n t h e - th e Ac t in g D D P

a t K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a t t h a t ti m e a n d t h a t is w h e n C o lo n e l H e r b s t w e n t a n d

Page 33 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
saw him.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s h is v ie w o f t h e c a s e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H i s v i e w t h a t t h e r e w a s p r i m a f a c ie
e v i d e n c e a n d t h e r e w a s e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t o c o n t in u e i n t h is m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w h e n e a r li e r o n y o u t o l d m e th a t t h e e v i d e n c e

w a s p r e s e n te d t o A d v o c a t e M z i n y a th i w h o s a i d th e r e w a s e n o u g h c a s e .
D i d th a t r e l a te t o c a s e 7 8 1 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o s i r.

T h a t - n o C h a ir.

S o r r y.

T h a t r e l a t e s to 3 8 6 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o u n d e r - i n r e g a r d t o t h r e e - c a s e 3 8 6 y o u th e r e f o r e
have

lik e

two

N PA o ff ic i a ls

who

s a id

there

A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i a n d A d v o c a t e M lo ts h w a .

is

enough

case -

T h e y b o t h s a id t h e r e is

e n o u g h e v id e n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s , b u t th o s e p e o p le l e f t.

Ye s

C h a ir. T h a t i s c o r r e c t , b u t t h e n a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y i t e n d e d u p w it h
W e n d y G r e e f - w i t h A d v o c a te W e n d y G r e e f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t I - w h a t I a m s a y in g is a m I c o r r e c t i n
u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t in r e g a r d t o t h i s c a s e n a m e l y 3 8 6 tw o o ff ic i a ls - t w o
prosecutors
20

from

the

N PA

-

A d v o c a t e Mz i n y a t h i

at

one

stage

A d v o c a t e Ml o ts h w a a t a n o th e r s ta g e - b o t h s e p a r a t e l y s a i d t h e r e w a s
e n o u g h e v id e n c e t o p r o s e c u t e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And

what

was

Advocate Noko?

Page 34 of 162

the

in v o lv e m e n t

of

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A d v o c a te N o k o a c tu a lly b e c a m e t h e
D e p u ty D ir e c t o r P u b li c P r o s e c u ti o n s i n K Z N a n d M lo t s h w a w a s n o
lo n g e r t h e r e a n d a ls o M z i n y a t h i - I t h i n k - r e s ig n e d a n d h e w e n t t o th e
p r i v a t e b a r, b u t h e w a s a ls o n o t a r o u n d a t t h e ti m e , C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And

was

A d v o c a te N o k o

prepared

to

prosecute the case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, I - I c a n n o t s a y i f th e d o c k e t
w a s g i v e n t o a p e r s o n t o r e v i e w th e m a t t e r b y C o lo n e l H e r b s t , b u t I
k n o w t h e r e is a r e p o r t w h ic h A d v o c a t e N o k o s u b m i t t e d a t t h e e n d o f t h is
10

w h o le s a g a .

R e p ly in g o n a ll t h e d o c k e ts a n d s a y i n g th a t - i n c lu d i n g

t h is 3 8 6 - t h a t t h e r e is n o e v i d e n c e w h a ts o e v e r a g a i n s t a n y b o d y i n a n y
o f t h e s e d o c k e ts in c l u d i n g t h e P C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h a t it l o o k s l ik e y o u s a y A d v o c a te W e n d y G r e e f
a ls o s a i d - a l s o d e c l in e d t o p r o s e c u t e i n t h i s m a t t e r a n d s h e is
expressed -

according

to

your

a ffi d a v it -

th e

o p in io n

th a t t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n w a s f la w e d . I a m n o t s u r e o r t h e o p i n i o n o f th e S A P S w a s
fl a w e d .

S o y o u h a d tw o p r o s e c u t o r s s a y i n g th e r e is e n o u g h e v i d e n c e

a n d i t lo o k s lik e y o u h a d t w o p r o s e c u to r s - A d v o c a t e G r e e f a n d
A d v o c a t e N o k o - s a y in g th e r e i s n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a i r a n d w h e n - w h e n t h a t d o c k e t
w a s d e c l in e d to p r o s e c u t e . I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t 3 8 6 . Th e P C ’s h u s b a n d
w a s - a s I m e n t io n e d - h e i s a ls o i n th e p o l ic e f o r c e . H e is a Br ig a d i e r

Page 35 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a t - h e w a s a B r i g a d ie r a t t h a t t i m e .

I b e li e v e h e is p r o m o t e d t o a

G e n e r a l to d a y, b u t i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n h e w a s a t P h o e n ix C l u s t e r
w h e r e D u r b a n N o r t h r e s i d e s u n d e r - P h o e n ix C l u s te r.
I m m e d ia t e l y w h e n t h e d o c k e t w a s d e c l in e d t o p r o s e c u t e . H e
f o r w a r d e d a l e tt e r t o u s r e q u e s ti n g t h e d o c k e t a n d I r e f u s e d p o i n t
b l a n k . I s a id y o u a r e n o t g e t ti n g t h e d o c k e t a n d e v e n t u a ll y h e j u s t l e f t
it , b u t w e n e v e r g a v e t h e d o c k e t . H e r e q u e s te d t h e d o c k e t . I s a i d n o .
Yo u a r e n o t h a v in g th e d o c k e t . W h a t d o y o u w a n t t h e d o c k e t f o r ?
H e j u s t s a i d n o a n d w e k e p t t h e d o c k e t , b e c a u s e I c o u ld n o t
10

s e e w h y - w h y s h o u l d h e a s k fo r th e d o c k e t. F o r w h a t? W h a t d o e s h e
w a n t to d o w i th t h e d o c k e t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g c o u l d y o u t e l l
t h e C h a ir a b o u t c a s e n u m b e r 4 6 6 .

Yo u d e a l w i th i t o n p a g e 5

paragraph 7.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, t h is c a s e s t a r t e d w i th - w h e n
C o l o n e l S o o b r a m o n e y w a s s t ill b u s y w i t h t h e i n q u ir y o f t h i s m a t te r. H e
s e n t a r e p o r t t o G e n e r a l B o o y s e n - c o n f id e n t ia l r e p o r t, b u t h e d i d n o t
d a t e th e r e p o r t a n d s o m e h o w …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o n o w w e a r e d e a li n g w it h c a s e n u m b e r 4 6 6 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 4 6 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir ; a n d s o m e h o w th is r e p o r t
e n d e d u p - a s w e d is c o v e r e d l a te r - w i t h T h o s h a n P a n d a y a n d
C o l o n e l M a d h o e . A s f a r a s I c a n r e c a ll C h a ir C o lo n e l M a d h o e t h e n i n

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t u r n a p p r o a c h e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w i t h t h is r e p o r t w h ic h h e r e c e iv e d
e a r l ie r fr o m C o l o n e l S o o b r a m o n e y. ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t r e p o r t r e l a te d to t h e i n q u ir y t h a t t h e t w o o f y o u
had done?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . T h a t is - th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . T h e p r o g r e s s r e p o r t . T h a t i s
w h a t i t w a s . C o lo n e l M a d h o e th e n r e q u e s t e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o d a t e
t h is r e p o r t, b u t h e m u s t d a te i t i n s u c h a w a y t h a t it l o o k s th a t w h e n w e
10

is s u e d o r w h e n w e a p p l ie d f o r S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s t h a t th a t w a s d o n e il l e g a l ly.
S o i n o th e r w o r d s b a c k d a te t h e s tu ff b e f o r e t h e c a s e w a s r e g is t e r e d
even.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r e m in d m e a b o u t S e c t io n 3 0 5 . I s t h a t … ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o S e c t io n 2 0 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 5 . Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S o w e u s e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 o f t h e

Criminal Procedure Act …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : To a p p e n d b a n k d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . F o r b a n k s t a te m e n ts . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s

s ir,

but

he

wanted

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o d a te t h is r e p o r t b e f o r e t h e c a s e w a s e v e n
r e g is t e r e d in t h e c a s e n u m b e r. B e f o r e C A S 7 8 1 . S o t h a t w o u l d s h o w
t h a t w e il le g a l ly s u b p o e n a e d t h e b a n k s to o b t a i n th e b a n k in f o r m a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

So the report included - showed that you had

Page 37 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
o b t a i n e d f in a n c ia l i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m t h e ir b a n k a c c o u n ts ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is r i g h t . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : ( I n a u d i b l e ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Tw o - S e c t i o n 2 0 5 h a d n o t b e e n c o m p li e d w it h th e n

y o u w o u l d h a v e a c t e d ill e g a l ly ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t r e a s o n d i d h e g iv e t o G e n e r a l B o o y s e n
for asking …
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e y w a n t to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H i m t o d o th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, t h e y w a n t t o a t t a c k u s c iv i ll y
w i t h r e g a r d i n g t o th e S e c t io n 2 0 5 s w e a p p li e d f o r i n te r m s o f t h e
Criminal Procedure Act.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h y w o u ld h e t h i n k G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w o u ld h a v e
a g r e e d t o th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To e v e n b a c k d a ti n g i t . A p a r t fr o m th e fa c t t h a t i t w a s
not his report.

20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ja.

No.

I

k n o w,

but

T h o s h a n P a n d a y w o u ld u s e th a t i n a c iv il m a t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

To c h a l le n g e o u r S e c t io n 2 0 5 s i n

the Civil Court …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 38 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : To s a y th a t th a t is u n l a w f u l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d th a t is w h y h e w a n t e d t h e d a t e
backdated.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B u t th e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s - w a s i t - w a s th e r e q u e s t m a d e in s u c h a w a y

t h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n c o u l d h a v e b e e n m i s le d i n t o t h i n k in g th a t i t w a s
ju s t a g e n u i n e a n d i n n o c u o u s r e q u e s t to p u t a c e r t a i n d a te a n d n o t
10

k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s - th e r e w a s s o m e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, G e n e r a l B o o y s e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e n t io n s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

To l d u s a b o u t i t a n d w e w o r k e d i t

o u t . I t w a s f o r t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s w e a p p li e d to a t th e c o u r ts . T h a t w a s
t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e y w a n t e d th a t a n d t h e n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o l d h i m ,
b u t i f I d o i t t h a t w a y t h e r e is n o t - n o t h in g f o r n o th in g . Yo u m u s t g iv e
me for something.

T h a t is w h e r e t h e m o n e y c a m e i n t o t h e s t o r y a n d

t h e n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n te s ti fi e d a n d t h e - t h e y c o n t in u e d n e g o ti a ti n g .
I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h a t . T h e i n v e s t ig a t in g o ff ic e r i n v o lv e d
20

in t h a t m a t t e r o r ig i n a lly w a s C o l o n e l L e n S h e r r i ff , b u t s a d ly s ir h e is
d e c e a s e d t o d a y, b u t C o lo n e l P e t e r P o i to o k th e m a tt e r o v e r a n d a t th e
e n d o f t h e d a y w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t t h e s t a t e a p p li e d fo r S e c t io n 2 5 2 A
in t e r m s o f th e C r i m i n a l Pr o c e d u r e A c t - t o h a v e a s ti n g o p e r a t i o n .
T h a t w a s a r r a n g e d t h a t M a d h o e w il l p a y t h e m o n e y o v e r t o
General Booysen,

but

then

C o l o n e l L e n S h e r r i ff

Page 39 of 162

-

as

far

as

my

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
k n o w l e d g e g o e s - h e a r r a n g e d t h e o p e r a t io n .

He got the approval of

t h e 2 5 2 A f r o m t h e - A d v o c a te G e r t N e l fr o m M a r i t z b u r g . E v e r y th i n g w a s
in p l a c e .

G e n e r a l M a d h o e c a m e in t o t h e p a r k in g g a r a g e o f th e

P r o v i n c ia l O ffic e i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l .
T h a t is w h e r e h e h a n d e d o v e r - t o o k th e m o n e y o u t o f h is
b o o t . P l a c e d i t i n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s b o o t . I w a s n o t p r e s e n t . I w a s
n o t t h e r e a n d a s fa r a s I k n o w t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. General Booysen gave evidence about …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . J a . T h a t is …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p i e c e o f - ja .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t is t h e - t h e c h a r g e s c a s e

c a m e a b o u t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w w i th r e g a r d t o t h a t c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - I a m - I a m s o r r y M s W e n t z e l . Th e s u s p e c t s i n
t h is o n e . C a s e n u m b e r 4 6 6 b r i b e r y /c o r r u p ti o n w e r e - w e r e th e y C o l o n e l
or was it Colonel Madhoe?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

And

-

Colonel Madhoe

and

T h o s h a n P a n d a y C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t w o o f th e m ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t a n d i t r e l a t e d t o t h a t - t o - t o t h e m o n e y
in t h e b o o t i n c i d e n t?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . T h e y - t h e y w e r e a r r e s t e d o n
that …

Page 40 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w h o w a s t h e a d v o c a t e a s s ig n e d t o t h a t

case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t w a s B h e k i M n y a t h i. Th a t is r i g h t .
( I n a u d i b l e ) . I t w a s B h e k i M n y a t h i w h o w a s a s s ig n e d t o t h a t m a tt e r.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t - is t h a t A d v o c a t e M z i n y a th i ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a . B h e k i M n y a t h i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e s a m e p e r s o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s h is v ie w a b o u t t h e m a t t e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
evidence.

H is v i e w t h a t t h e r e w a s s u ff ic ie n t

I m e a n t h e r e is fo o t a g e o f i t .

T h e 2 5 2 A w a s le g a l .

The

m o n e y w a s h a n d e d o v e r. Th e r e w e r e w i t n e s s e s a n d t h e r e i s - h e s a i d
20

t h e r e i s n o p r o b le m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u s a y i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t :
“Advocate Wendy Greef

s u b s e q u e n tly

replace d

A d v o c a t e M n y a th i . ”
W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d t o th e m a t t e r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll l e t u s s ta r t w it h is - is

Page 41 of 162

th a t tr u e t h a t

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
Advocate Greef replaced …?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Or

maybe

the

way

to

put

it .

It

was

-

was

A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . H e r e s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m o v e d fr o m th e c a s e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s .

H e r e s i g n e d t h e C h a ir a n d

t h e n A d v o c a te …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. He resigned?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . T h a t is r i g h t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n A d v o c a te G r e e f w a s a s s i g n e d th e m a t t e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ja and then - and I can recall the

m o r n in g t h e r e w e r e - t h e y a p p e a r e d i n t h e R e g io n a l C o u r t to a p p ly f o r a
d a t e t o g e t t h e c a s e t r a n s f e r r e d to t h e H i g h C o u r t . T h a t s a m e m o r n in g
w i t h o u t a n y o n e o f u s k n o w i n g o r i n v e s t ig a ti n g th a t m a tt e r k n o w in g o r
e v e n A d v o c a te W e n d y G r e e f k n e w.

Th a t is w h e n A d v o c a te N o k o

in s t r u c t e d h e r t o p r o v is io n a l ly w i th d r a w th e m a t te r.
20

S t a ti n g

th a t

there

were

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s

made

and

it

c o n c e r n e d s o m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . S h e m e n ti o n e d t h e r e is a p r i m a f a c i e
c a s e in t h is m a t t e r - A d v o c a t e N o k o a n d s h e a ls o s a id i t m u s t b e - a s I
m e n ti o n e d - p r o v i s i o n a lly w i t h d r a w n a n d th a t - a n d t h a t w a s i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o t h e in t e r n a l

memorandum on page 20.

Page 42 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u w il l s e e t h i s is a n in t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m

to Advocate Govender from Advocate Noko and it says:
“ D e a r A d v o c a t e G o v e n d e r, I h a v e p e r u s e d t h e f il e s
a n d t h e c a s e d o c k e t i n th is m a t t e r w h e r e a n
a c c u s e d p e r s o n s a r e c h a r g e d w i th o n e c o u n t o f
c o r r u p ti o n , a l le g e d t o h a v e o ff e r e d a n d / o r g iv e n a
g r a t i fi c a t io n t o a n o ffic e r.

I have been presented

w i t h r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s i n t h is m a t t e r w h i c h r a is e s o m e
10

c o n c e r n s r e g a r d i n g j u s ti c e .

Ti m e i s n e e d e d t o

in v e s t i g a t e t o f o l lo w u p o n t h e s e c o n c e r n s .

There

is a p r i m a f a c ie c a s e a g a in s t th e a c c u s e d p e r s o n s
in th is m a t te r.

H o w e v e r i n t h e in t e r e s t o f j u s ti c e I

h a v e d e c id e d t o p r o v is io n a l ly w i t h d r a w t h e m a t te r.
I t w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h a t a l a t e r s t a g e a f t e r t h e r a i s e d
is s u e s h a v e b e e n a tt e n d e d t o . T h is c a s e m u s t t h u s
be

p r o v is i o n a l ly

withdrawn on

11 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3

when it appears again in court for reasons as I have
advanced supra.
20

K i n d l y a ls o i n f o r m t h e S A P S

in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r a c c o r d i n g ly. ”
Is t h is w h a t y o u r e f e r r in g t o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t is t h e

le t t e r w h a t A d v o c a t e N o k o t h a t m o r n i n g …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t

had been made?

Page 43 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir.

Not at all.

N o t h in g

w h a ts o e v e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A d v o c a te G o v e n d e r t h a t i s a m e m b e r o f S A P S t h a t

w a s o r t h a t w a s a m e m b e r o f th e - a p r o s e c u t o r i n t h e N PA ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d v o c a t e K D G o v e n d e r.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he a prosecutor of - she a prosecutor?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o . J a . S h e is in t h e N PA , b u t s h e
10

is a - t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: At the court?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

No.

S h e i s s it t in g a t t h e - n o t a t

c o u r t i ts e l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e i s lik e a S e c ti o n H e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O r g a n i s e d C r i m e P r o s e c u t o r s . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h e i s a p r o s e c u to r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

Ja.

S h e i s a p r o s e c u to r.

Ye s

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . C o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C o u l d y o u th e n t e l l t h e C h a ir

about case number 122?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 1 2 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e w e g e t t h e r e .

T h is w a s w i t h d r a w n a n d w h a t

Page 44 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
h a p p e n e d ? T h i s p a r t ic u l a r o n e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s m a n y y e a r s a g o . W e a r e n o w i n 2 0 2 0 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, a s fa r a s I c a n r e c a ll t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Was it ever reinstated?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s .

As far as I know now it has

b e e n r e i n s t a te d a n d A d v o c a t e W e n d y G r e e f f r o m t h e K Z N C o m m e r c i a l
C r i m e C o u r t. S h e i s d e a li n g w i th t h e m a t t e r - w i t h t h i s s p e c i fi c m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e t r i a l h a s n o t - h a s n o t s ta r t e d . A s fa r a s y o u
10

k n o w.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o . N o t y e t . N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e is s t il l b u s y. S h e i s s t ill b u s y
with it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o it lo o k s l ik e m a n y y e a r s h a v e la p s e d …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S in c e it w a s p r o v i s i o n a ll y w i t h d r a w n .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, b e c a u s e it

w a s o n l y l o o k e d a t a g a i n a f te r A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s g a v e t h e
20

in s t r u c t i o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e p r o s e c u ti o n m u s t c o n t in u e i n

these matters.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

O n l y t h e n s o m e th in g h a p p e n e d

Page 45 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a g a in w i t h th e s e m a t te r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I s e e th a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m fr o m A d v o c a te N o k o
t o A d v o c a t e G o v e n d e r w h e r e s h e g a v e i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t t h e m a t te r b e
p r o v i s i o n a lly - b e p r o v is io n a l ly w i t h d r a w n i s d a t e d 7 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s e v e n y e a r s la t e r th e tr i a l …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Has not happened.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s a n d C h a ir p e r h a p s j u s t i t - i t is q u a r te r

p a s t 11 . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o a d j o u r n o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Let us take the tea adjournment.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

O n m y w a tc h i t is a b o u t 1 8 m i n u t e s p a s t .

W e w i ll

r e s u m e a t 2 5 t o 1 2 . W e a d jo u r n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s M s W e n tz e l , a r e y o u r e a d y ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Colonel van Loggerenberg

I a m n o w r e f e r r i n g t o p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t , p a r a g r a p h 8 , c o u ld y o u
g iv e t h e C h a ir a n i d e a w h a t D u r b a n C e n tr a l c a s e 11 2 w a s a b o u t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

11 2 o r 1 2 2 ?

Page 46 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

1 2 2 I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.

Ja, 122.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

J u s t a c o r r e c ti o n b e f o r e t h e te a

ti m e I s a i d A d v o c a t e W e n d y G r e e ff w a s d o in g 4 6 6 , i t’s A d v o c a t e W e n d y
O ’ Br ia n th a t i s p r o s e c u ti n g 4 6 6 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , t h a t i s 7 . 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

J a , i t is A d v o c a t e W e n d y O ’ B r i a n

t h a t i s b u s y w it h t h e p r o s e c u ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S h e is th e o n e w h o r e p l a c e d A d v o c a t e , M s N y a ti ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o , n o s h e is th e o n e b u s y w i t h

t h is m a t t e r, D u r b a n C e n tr a l 4 6 6 a t t h is p o i n t in t i m e , s h e is t h e
p r o s e c u t o r a p p o i n t e d t o d o th a t m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

386?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

No, 446.

O h , o k a y, I a m s o r r y, t h e r e a r e s o m a n y o f th e s e

case numbers. 466?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

T h a t ’s r i g h t .

I t ’s A d v o c a t e W e n d y O ’ B r i a n , n o t

A d v o c a t e W e n d y G r e e ff .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d 4 6 6 , s h e w a s in v o lv e d ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t’s r ig h t , A d v o c a te W e n d y

O ’ Br ia n i s t h e p r o s e c u t o r i n v o l v e d t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d A d v o c a t e G r e e ff , W e n d y G r e e ff r e la t e d t o

a n o t h e r m a t t e r.

Page 47 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C h a ir W e n d y O ’ Br ia n is t h e c u r r e n t ly t o d a y

t h e p r o s e c u to r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n th e m a t t e r ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s in t h e m a t t e r.

Ye s , o k a y, th a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f y o u c o u ld n o w j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t y o u

know about Durban Central case 122.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir t h is m a t t e r .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

W e ll w e r e f e r t o 1 2 2 b u t t h e a c t u a l c a s e s e e m s t o b e

122/04/2012.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ja, but we say 122, and the – and 466 the one we

r e fe r to a s 4 6 6 is a c t u a l ly 4 6 6 / 0 9 /2 0 11 a n d t h e o n e w e r e f e r t o a s 3 8 6
is 3 8 6 /0 9 / 2 0 11 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d t h e n e a r l ie r o n t h a n th a t y e s t h e r e w a s c a s e

n u m b e r 7 8 1 w h e n w e r e f e r r e d to 7 8 1 w e w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o c a s e n u m b e r
781/06/2010.
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir.

S o t h e r e c o r d w i ll c a p tu r e t h e c o r r e c t c a s e n u m b e r s .

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S ir in t h is c a s e D u r b a n C e n tr a l

Page 48 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C A Z 1 2 2 / 0 4 / 2 0 1 2 I c a n r e c a ll is th a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n h a s p l a c e d a
s t o p w i t h fi n a n c i a l d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y f u r th e r m o n ie s t o T h o s h a n
P a n d a y.
t h is

T h o s h a n P a n d a y t h e n la u n c h e d th is c iv il a p p l ic a ti o n t o s u e

o u ts ta n d i n g

amount

fr o m

the

p o l ic e ,

but

what

he

needed

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

To s u e t h e p o l ic e S A P S f o r n o t p a y i n g h i m ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

Panday and

Ye s , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Captain

W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e i s Th o s h a n

Narainpershad

approached

another

m e m b e r,

C a p t a i n S t e v e n s . T h e y r e q u e s t e d C a p ta i n S t e v e n s t o – le t m e j u s t g o a
s t e p b a c k s o w i t h t h e s e a r c h e s a n d s e i z u r e s s e iz e d d o c u m e n ta t io n fr o m
d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts f r o m o u r p r o v i n c ia l o ff ic e a n d s o m e o f t h o s e
d o c u m e n ts w e r e i n v o ic e s a n d c a ll u p i n s t r u c t io n s i s s u e d b y B r i g a d i e r
H u n t e r fo r t h e m e m b e r s to a s s e m b l e f o r t h e . . . [i n d is t in c t ] o r w h e r e v e r
needed.
T h e y a p p r o a c h e d C a p t a i n S t e v e n s to r e p r i n t s o m e o f th e s e
in v o ic e s w h i c h t h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e i n t h e ir p o s s e s s i o n a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e
a n d a ls o to f a ls i fy c a l l- u p i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d C a p t a i n S t e v e n s w o u l d h a v e
20

t o fa ls i fy B r i g a d i e r H u n t e r ’s s i g n a tu r e o n t h e d o c u m e n t s , e n d o r s e t o
s a y y e s i t’s b e e n a p p r o v e d , s e r v ic e s h a s b e e n r e n d e r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s p a y m e n t fo r p a y m e n t p u r p o s e s ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t is t o s h o w i n th e c iv il m a t t e r

t h a t s e r v ic e s h a s b e e n r e n d e r e d a n d i t h a s b e e n a u th o r is e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o t h a t M r P a n d a y, h is c l a i m w o u ld s u c c e e d .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Th a t’s r i g h t , th a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir.

A n d th a t is w h e r e t h is c a s e o c c u r r e d o f , a n d a l s o t h e r e i f I c a n r e c a l l
c o r r e c t ly is th a t a p p r o v a l w a s o b ta i n e d a n d C a p t a i n S te v e n s n e g o ti a te d
w i t h th e s e p e o p l e , th e r e c o r d i n g m a d e , t h e r e w e r e v is u a l r e p o r t s m a d e
a n d t h is m a tt e r w a s g i v e n t o A d v o c a t e D o r i a n P a t h e r fr o m t h e
P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g D D P ’s o ffi c e , b u t th e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s b e t w e e n
C a p t a i n S t e v e n s a n d P a n d a y a n d N a r a i n p e r s h a d i s a c t u a ll y i n a n I n d i a n
s tr e e t l a n g u a g e , s o a p e r s o n t h a t d o e s n o t k n o w t h a t s l a n g o r w h a te v e r,
t o p u t i t t h a t w a y, w o u l d n ’ t k n o w o r u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t ly w h a t t h e y m e a n
10

a n d w h a t t h e y s a y, s o t h e r e ’s a b i t o f a p r o b l e m w i th th e a u d i o o f t h a t
t h i n g a n d is tr y i n g t o r e c t i fy t h a t a t t h i s p o i n t i n t i m e , s o t h a t t h e y c a n
c o n ti n u e w i t h t h a t m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s C a p ta i n S t e v e n s s u p p o s e d to d o , w h a t w a s

h is r o le ? I s e e y o u r e f e r t o h i m i n p a r a g r a p h 8 .1 0 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C a p t a in S t e v e n s w a s in th e

s e c t io n a t Br ig a d i e r H u n te r ’s d iv is i o n w h e r e th e y – h e w o r k e d f o r
B r i g a d ie r H u n t e r in h is s e c ti o n . B r i g a d ie r H u n t e r w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r i f
t h e y n e e d e d 2 0 p o lic e m e n s a y a t p o i n t A B r ig a d i e r H u n te r w i ll a u t h o r is e
a c a l l- u p i n s tr u c t io n , t h e m e m b e r s n a m e s , a u th o r is e i t a n d t h e n i t w il l
20

g o – C a p t a i n S t e v e n s w i ll s e e t o t h o s e d o c u m e n ta t io n s , s e n d i t to
S u p p ly C h a i n a n d s e e t h a t p e o p l e g e t t h e r e a n d e v e r y t h in g is a r r a n g e d
for them.

T h a t ’s w h e r e C a p t a i n S t e v e n s fi t i n b e c a u s e th e y n e e d e d

t h o s e d o c u m e n t s , t h o s e c a l l u p i n s tr u c t io n s a n d s o m e o f th e m t h e y d i d
h a v e i t, s o m e o f th e m t h e y d i d n o t h a v e , a n d t h a t ’s w h y th e y
a p p r o a c h e d h i m t o fi ll i n th e g a p s w h e r e t h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e th e m .

Page 50 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e w a s c o o p e r a ti n g w it h M r P a n d a y a n d t h e

group?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s , h e f ir s t a p p r o a c h e d G e n e r a l

B o o y s e n r e g a r d i n g t h is m a t t e r a n d th e n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a p p r o v e d
t h e m t h e n i t r a n fr o m t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, d o y o u k n o w w h a t w a s i n i t f o r h i m ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

Did he?

Do you know what was in it for him, why was he

helping Mr Panday?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e y p r o m is e d h i m a m il li o n R a n d

C h a ir i f h e c a n d o th a t fo r t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f h e a s s is t e d t h e m ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir, t h e y b r i b e d h i m w it h a

m il li o n R a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i s th a t w h a t y o u f o u n d o u t a s t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n

was happening?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir th is h a p p e n e d a c tu a lly a f te r

781.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h , o k a y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Because this was now for Panday

f o r h is c i v i l m a t te r, n o t f o r t h e c r i m i n a l m a t t e r, h e tr ie d t o u s e th is
in f o r m a ti o n f o r h i s c iv il m a t t e r, t o g e t t h e p o lic e t o tr y a n d g e t t h e
money released.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o th e c iv il m a t te r ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r w e d o n ’t k n o w – b u t I k n o w

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
it is s ti ll p e n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s p a y m e n t m a d e to f a c il i ta t e i t ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s n o t p a id ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir, n e v e r.

N o C h a ir.

Wa s t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e d e c is io n s t a k e n b y G e n e r a l

Booysen?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t th e r e s h o u ld b e n o p a y m e n t ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct.

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y s o in te r ms o f w h a t u l ti m a t e l y h a p p e n e d w it h

t h e c iv il a c ti o n y o u d o n ’t k n o w.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h a s n o t b e e n f in a l is e d a s fa r a s y o u k n o w ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d i f it h a d b e e n fi n a li s e d y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir w e w o u ld h a v e k n o w n ,

y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

S o i t m u s t h a v e b e e n p e n d in g f o r m a n y y e a r s i s th a t

r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

J a , n o th a t ’s – i t ’s a lo t o f y e a r s

ago yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

N o w w e a r e a g a i n d e a li n g

o n p a g e 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d n o w i n p a r t ic u l a r to w h a t is n o w
c o l l o q u ia lly c a ll e d c a s e n u m b e r 7 8 1 , c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t th e
in t e r fe r e n c e y o u s a y in y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u e x p e r ie n c e d w i t h y o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir w e w e r e i n f o r m e d b y

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n o n m a n y o c c a s i o n s , I w o u l d s a y t h r e e o r f o u r, t o s t o p
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n D u r b a n C e n t r a l C A Z 7 8 1 /0 6 /2 0 1 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , t e l l u s f ir s t w h a t t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s a b o u t .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

E x c u s e m e C h a ir ?

Te l l m e f ir s t w h a t th a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s a b o u t u n d e r

c a s e 7 8 1 .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

7 8 1 w a s t h e c o r r u p ti o n c h a r g e s ,

w e h a d a l l th o s e p e o p l e i n v o l v e d , t h e P C , C o l o n e l . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h a t ’s t h e o n e w e s ta r t e d w i t h fr o m th e b e g in n i n g .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s , t h a t ’s o u r a c c o m m o d a ti o n o n e

a n d a l l t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w I r e m e m b e r, t h a t ’s t h e o n e w e s t a r te d w it h

e a r ly in y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, y o u s a y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n g a v e y o u a n

in s t r u c t i o n t o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S t o p t h e in v e s ti g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H e g o t th e i n s tr u c t io n fr o m t h e P C ,

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h a t ’s n o w G e n e r a l N g u b e n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e P C , L t G e n e r a l . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y I j u s t t o m a k e s u r e I h e a r w h a t t h e l a s t b i t

is t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g , d i d y o u s a y h e g o t in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m G e n e r a l
Ngubene?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : F r o m n o w L t G e n e r a l N g u b e n e th e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : To s to p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay yes.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 7 8 1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d d i d h e th e n p a s s t h a t in s tr u c ti o n o v e r t o

you?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W e d i d n o t s t o p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n o t s to p ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e h a d w e

m a d e c o p ie s o f i t a n d g a v e h i m t h e fi le b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e d id n o t s t o p .

O k a y.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

We carried on.

S o a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n t h e P r o v i n c ia l

C o m m i s s i o n e r in s t r u c t e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n m u s t
b e s t o p p e d , G e n e r a l B o o y s e n p a s s e d th a t i n s tr u c ti o n o v e r t o y o u .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u h a n d e d b a c k t h e fi l e t o G e n e r a l B o o y s e n , k in d o f

pretending that you have stopped.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t y o u a c tu a lly h a d n o t s t o p p e d .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d th e n y o u c o n ti n u e d w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d y o u k e p t s o m e d o c u m e n ts .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

B r ig a d i e r, I m e a n C o lo n e l Va n

L o g g e r e n b e r g c a n y o u p l e a s e h a v e r e g a r d t o a n a ff id a v i t o f L a u r e n c e
King on page 22.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o r r y, 2 2 ?

I’ m t h e r e .

W h a t is y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f t h i s a ff id a v i t?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir m y k n o w l e d g e o f t h is

a ffi d a v i t is th a t w e u s e d t h is a ffi d a v i t a s a n A 1 t o f ir s t ly o p e n u p a
case.

H e w a s t h e c o m p l a i n a n t in 7 8 1 , a n d h is a ff i d a v i t c o v e r s

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
e v e r y t h i n g h e d is c o v e r e d , a n d a ls o th a t t h e P C p h o n e d h i m a n d h i s
s e c o n d i n c h a r g e , C o lo n e l M o o d l e y, w a s a ls o p r e s e n t w h e n t h e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r i n s tr u c t e d h i m t o te ll G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o s t o p
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h o r e q u e s t e d t h i s a ff id a v i t fr o m h i m ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir I a p p r o a c h e d h i m f o r a n

a ffi d a v i t a f t e r I h a v e g o n e th r o u g h h is i n i t ia l in t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m , h e
r e fu s e d t o g iv e m e a n a ff i d a v i t , a n d I k n e w w h y h e r e f u s e d t o g iv e m e
a n a ff id a v i t b e c a u s e h e w a n te d s o m e t h i n g t o c o v e r h i m s e l f t h a t n o b o d y
10

c a n p u t t h e b l a m e o n h i m t h a t h e g a v e a n a ff id a v i t fr e e ly a n d
v o l u n ta r i ly s o a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y w h a t I d i d , I o b ta in e d a S e c ti o n 2 0 5
o f th e C r i m in a l Pr o c e d u r e A c t , I s e r v e d i t o n h i m a n d t h e n h e g a v e m e
t h e a ffi d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t h e c o u ld s a y I w a s o b li g e d t o g iv e i t to h i m ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, yes, to cover himself.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , a n d t h i s a ffi d a v i t w a s it i n c lu d e d i n t h e f il e t h a t

you handed back to General Booysen?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o t t h i s o n e C h a ir.

B u t y o u a lr e a d y h a d i t w i th y o u w h e n y o u h a n d e d

t h a t fi le b u t y o u d i d n ’ t i n c lu d e i t i n t h e fil e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I d o n ’ t t h i n k s o C h a ir b e c a u s e t h i s

a ffi d a v i t t o o k a w h il e , i t w a s t h e e n q u i r y f i le th a t w e a c t u a ll y g a v e b a c k
t o – to . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

General Booysen.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

General Booysen ja.

S o y o u g o t t h e a ffi d a v i t la t e r.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

L a t e r y e s , th is t o o k a w h il e t o ta k e

t h is a ffi d a v i t ja .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a s p a r t o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g

w i t h o u t th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r k n o w i n g .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Okay yes.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B u t a t t h is p o i n t i n ti m e w h e n w e

w e r e to ld h o w m a n y ti m e s t o s t o p C o l o n e l Su b r a m o n e y p h o n e d C o l o n e l
D r a h m a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y, w e r e y o u e v e r t o ld w h y t h e P r o v i n c ia l

C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s s a y i n g th is in v e s ti g a t i o n m u s t b e s t o p p e d , a n d d o
y o u k n o w w h e th e r a n y b o d y e v e r a s k e d h e r w h y m u s t t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n
b e s t o p p e d a n d i f s o w h a t d id s h e s a y ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r I d o n ’t t h i n k a n y b o d y a s k e d

h e r w h y t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n m u s t b e s t o p p e d b u t e v e r y b o d y k n e w w h y s h e
g a v e t h e i n s tr u c ti o n , b e c a u s e s h e i s i m p l ic a te d .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t , b u t I d id n ’ t a s k h e r

p e r s o n a l ly, I d o n ’ t k n o w i f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a s k e d h e r p e r s o n a ll y b u t I
d o n ’t t h i n k a n y b o d y a s k e d h e r, s h e ju s t s a i d s to p th is in v e s t i g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t e r e s te d t o k n o w w h a t r e a s o n

s h e w o u l d h a v e g iv e n .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , I in t e r r u p t e d , y o u m a y

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir I w a s a t w h e r e C o lo n e l

Va s s a n S u b r a m o n e y p h o n e d G e n e r a l D r a h m a t .

H e w a s t h e N a ti o n a l

H e a d o f th e H a w k s a t th a t t i m e , a n d t h e n h e t o l d u s t o h a v e a m e e ti n g
w i t h h i m in Pr e t o r i a , s o C o lo n e l S u b r a m o n e y a n d my s e l f d r o v e u p to
h i m , w e h a d a m e e ti n g w i th h i m .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

This is now you said General Drahmat, who was the

head of the Hawks at the time, yes.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s , th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

We

s h o w e d h i m a l l th e e v i d e n c e t h a t w e ’v e g o t a n d a ls o t h a t w e ’v e g o t
e v i d e n c e a g a in t h e P C , w e ’ v e g o t e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t G e n e r a l R S P ill a y,
a g a in s t C a p ta in . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ] th e w h o l e s t o r y a n d a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y
h e s a id fir s t o f a l l G e n e r a l N g o b e n i h a s n ’ t g o t t h e a u th o r it y t o s to p th is
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d h e t o l d u s t o c o n t in u e w i t h th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n , w e d o n ’ t
s t o p , w e c o n t in u e a n d th e n it w a s a r r a n g e d , h e s a i d w e l l t h e b e s t w o u l d
b e t h a t th e o ffi c e o f s e r i o u s e c o n o m ic o ff e n c e s i n P r e t o r ia w o u l d d e a l
20

w i t h t h e m a t t e r a n d w e h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i t h t h e o ffi c e o f s e r i o u s
e c o n o m ic o ff e n c e s b u t a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y th e y a g r e e d t h a t w e m u s t
ju s t c a r r y o n w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d w e m u s t r e p o r t d ir e c tl y t o
G e n e r a l D r a h m a t a n d t h a t’s h o w w e c o n t i n u e d w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D e a l in g w i t h t h i s a ffi d a v i t if y o u c o u l d g o to

paragraph 18 on page 28.

Page 58 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

A n d t h is is w h a t C o l o n e l K e m p s a y s , o n

W e d n e s d a y t h e 5 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 0 a t a b o u t 1 5 :2 5 w h i le m y s e l f a n d
C o l o n e l M o o d l e y w a s a t J a c o b s G a r a g e a tt e n d i n g t o w o r k r e l a te d
m a t t e r s I r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a ll fr o m t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r,
Lieutenant General Ngobeni.

T h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r i n f o r m e d

m e th a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n p e r t a i n i n g t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s o f
t h e d e ta c h m e n t d u t i e s m u s t s to p a n d I m u s t i n f o r m D e p u ty P r o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r s N ta n y a a n d B o o y s e n . I f i r s t p h o n e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ,
10

h o w e v e r t h e G e n e r a l ’s p h o n e w a s o n v o i c e m a il a n d I l e ft a m e s s a g e
in f o r m i n g t h e G e n e r a l o f t h e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r ’s in s t r u c t i o n .

I

then contacted General Ntanya and informed the General of the
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s i n s tr u c t io n , h i s r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t I a m
t e ll i n g h i m th a t w h i le i t is r a i n i n g a n d th e r o o f is l e a k i n g w e m u s t n o t
r e p a ir t h e r o o f .

A s I w a s n ’t d ir e c tl y in v o l v e d i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n I

c o n s i d e r e d t h a t I h a v e c o m p l i e d w it h t h e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s
in s t r u c t i o n .

C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n t h a t?

Is this what was told to you

b y C o lo n e l K e m p ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

Ye s t h a t is r ig h t j a .

That he did

r e c e i v e th e p h o n e c a ll fr o m t h e C o m m i s s io n e r, G e n e r a l N g o b e n i , t o
s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h a t ’s w h a t h e t o l d y o u ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Yo u w e r e n o t th e r e y o u r s e l f .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o , n o I w a s n o t t h e r e , n o C h a ir,

Page 59 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h a t ’s w h a t h e t o ld m e , t h i s is w h a t I r e c o r d e d w h a t h e t o l d m e in t h e
s t a te m e n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d i d y o u r e c o r d th is s t a te m e n t ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s I d id C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s . H e th e n s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o n p a g e

29:
“ O n S a tu r d a y th e 8 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 0 a t a b o u t f iv e o ’c l o c k I
r e c e i v e d a p h o n e c a l l o n m y c e l l p h o n e fr o m t h e P r o v i n c ia l
C o m m i s s i o n e r.
10

T h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r e n q u ir e d a b o u t

t h e d e t a c h m e n t e x p e n d i t u r e a n d th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s
t h e r e o f . I h ig h li g h t e d a n d r a is e d m y c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e h ig h
e x p e n d i t u r e o f d e t a c h m e n t d u ti e s a n d i n d ic a t e d t h a t i f t h e
c u r r e n t e x p e n d it u r e f o r d e t a c h m e n ts c o n t i n u e d i t w il l h a v e a
v e r y n e g a t iv e i m p a c t o n t h e Pr o v in c i a l b u d g e t . I a ls o r a is e d
m y c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e e x p e n d it u r e o f c e r ta i n d e t a c h m e n t s th a t
w a s e x o r b i t a n t . I g a v e th e e x a m p l e o f e x p e n s e s o f o b t a in in g
a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f 8 5 0 p e r n i g h t p e r p e r s o n f o r d e t a c h m e n t a t
Escourt, which I was of the opinion, was far too expensive.
T h i s c a ll la s te d s o m e ti m e a n d t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r

20

a ls o a s k e d m e a b o u t p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s b u t I r e fr a in e d
to

g iv e

p e r t a in in g

an

opinion

and

focused

to the budget and

d e t a c h m e n t d u ti e s .

th e

on

my

r e s p o n s ib il i ty

h i g h e x p e n d i tu r e

for

T h e c a ll w a s c o n c l u d e d w h e n th e

P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e m a t t e r w o u l d b e
d is c u s s e d i n h e r o ff ic e o n M o n d a y t h e 1 0 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 0 . ”

Page 60 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t y e s , th a t is w h a t h e

t o l d h e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 .

“On Monday the 10th of May 2010 at about 8.30 I was
in f o r m e d t o g o t o th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s o ff ic e .

On

m y a r r iv a l a t t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s b o a r d r o o m th e
P r o v i n c ia l

C o m m i s s io n e r,

the

three

D e p u ty

Pr o v i n c i a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r s , M a s e m o l e , N j a n y a n a a n d B o o y s e n a s w e ll a s
C o l o n e l M a d d o c k o f P r o v i n c i a l S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t
10

was present.

T h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r i n d ic a te d t h e

p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s t o lo o k a t t h e e x p e n s e s o f th e
d e t a c h m e n ts .

C o lo n e l

Mdu

was

asked

to

explain

th e

p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s b u t h a r d l y s t a r te d w h e n t h e P r o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r a s k e d m e t o h ig h l i g h t t h e d e t a il s o f m y
in f o r m a ti o n n o t e . I to l d th e m e e ti n g a b o u t t h e e x p e n d i tu r e f o r
d e t a c h m e n t d u t i e s a n d t h e h i g h e x p e n d i t u r e a s w e ll a s r a is e d
m y c o n c e r n s o f th e h i g h e x p e n d i t u r e i n c u r r e d p e r t a i n i n g to
certain detachments.

I a g a i n r e f e r r e d t o t h e e x a m p le o f h ig h

c o s ts f o r a c c o m m o d a t i o n a t E s c o u r t .
20

W h il e I w a s g i v i n g m y

concerns the Provincial Commissioner interrupted on a few
o c c a s i o n s a n d s o m e o f th e d e p u t ie s lik e G e n e r a l N ja n j a n a
w a s g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n i t y to c o m m e n t .

A t o n e s ta g e i n t h e

m e e ti n g a l e t t e r r e c e iv e d fr o m . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l, i t d o e s n ’t l o o k l ik e t h is w i tn e s s

a tt e n d e d th a t m e e t i n g , w h y a r e y o u r e a d i n g t h is m in u t e ?

Page 61 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

J u s t t o c o n fi r m t h a t t h is is w h a t w a s t o l d t o

h i m b y t h i s w i tn e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y t o l d a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , h e w a s t o l d th is w h e n h e t o o k t h e

s t a te m e n t , th is w i t n e s s to o k t h e s t a t e m e n t fr o m t h a t w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o h , fr o m M r K e m p ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr K e m p o h o k a y, a lr i g h t .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Ye s .

I n th e m id d le o f p a g e 3 0 i t s a y s :

“ A t o n e s t a g e o f th e m e e ti n g a le t t e r r e c e iv e d fr o m H e a d
O ff ic e w h ic h w a s f o r w a r d e d t o t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r
a n d m y s e l f a n d th e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d , Fi n a n c e , a n d r e q u e s t e d
t h e P r o v i n c e to s u p p ly i n f o r m a t io n w a s d i s c u s s e d .

I

in d i c a t e d th a t I a m i n t h e p r o c e s s o f c o m p i li n g th e f e e d b a c k .
T h i s u p s e t t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r w h o i n d ic a t e d t h a t
t h e s e d ir e c t l in e s w e h a v e w it h H e a d O ff i c e m u s t s to p . T h e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r w a s v e r y a n g r y w it h m e .

T h is

b e c a m e t h e m a i n is s u e a n d n o t th e i s s u e o f t h e h i g h
e x p e n d i t u r e fo r t h e d e t a c h m e n t d u t i e s .
20

I w a s g iv e n t o

understand that I must know what I must do and use the
c o r r e c t c o m m u n i c a t io n

c h a n n e ls .

I felt and

got the

i m p r e s s io n t h a t I w a s a t th e w r o n g a n d m u s t n o t h a v e
c o m p il e d

the

i n f o r m a ti o n

n o ti c e .

C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s v e r y u p s e t w i th m e .
the

m e e t in g

was

becoming

The

A t t h a t m e e ti n g , a s

unpleasant

Page 62 of 162

Pr o v i n c i a l

Major

General

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
Booysen requested whether myself and Colonel Mdu cannot
be

excused as core

management discussed the

m a t te r

f u r th e r. Th e t w o o f u s w e r e t h e n e x c u s e d . ”
Is t h a t i n l i n e w i t h w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , b u t w h y is i t n o t e n o u g h f o r – is t h e r e a n y b o d y

w h o is g o in g t o d is p u t e th a t th is s t a t e m e n t w a s m a d e b y M r K e m p , w h y
is i t n e c e s s a r y t o g e t th is w i t n e s s t o c o n f ir m t h a t w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e
w a s t o ld t o h i m ?
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a i r b e c a u s e i t I b e l ie v e w ill g iv e

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is i t p r io r to t h e s t a t e m e n t b e in g d o n e ? W e ll h e

t o o k t h e s ta t e m e n t fr o m M r K e m p , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th is is w h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t s a y s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

S o w h y d o e s h e n e e d t o c o n f ir m a n y th in g th a t is s a id

here?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

C h a ir in a s e n s e t o g iv e t h e p i c t u r e a s to th e

f u r th e r d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w ill b e s h o w n t o y o u . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

It should be enough to say did you take this, draft

t h is s t a t e m e n t o r ta k e a s t a t e m e n t fr o m M r K e m p ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a t s h o u ld b e e n o u g h .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

Page 63 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e w e c o n fir m e d t h a t ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

I t ’s fi n e , w e d o n ’ t n e e d t o d o th a t .

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e h a v e c o n fir m e d t h a t a n d w e c a n d e a l w i t h

t h a t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y if h e d r a f t e d t h e s t a te m e n t h e

w a s t o ld w h a t i s i n t h e s t a t e m e n t .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , i t i s a ls o C h a ir j u s t t o a v o i d h a v in g t o

c a l l e v e r y s i n g l e p e r s o n in v o lv e d t o c o n fir m t h e s e f a c ts b u t i t i s
c o n fir m e d a n d th e c o n fir m a t io n i s t h e r e a n d i t is o n r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e ’s t h a t p a r t , i t is a n i m p o r t a n t p a r t .

I th i n k

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t e s ti f ie d a b o u t t h e s a m e m e e ti n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t i t d o e s n ’t h e lp t o s a y t h i s w i t n e s s w h o to o k t h e

s t a te m e n t m u s t c o n fir m t h a t w h a t is in t h e s t a t e m e n t is w h a t h e w a s
t o l d b y t h e p e r s o n w h o s i g n e d t h e s t a te m e n t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

If we can then just refer to

C o l o n e l M e l a n ie M o o d l e y ’s s t a te m e n t , y o u w il l f i n d i t a t p a g e 7 2 o r t h e
s t a te m e n t i t s e l f is a t p a g e 7 3 , w h o t o o k t h i s s t a t e m e n t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir t h e s ta t e m e n t w a s o b ta i n e d

b y C o lo n e l S Y G o v e n d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t a t p a g e 7 3 ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t i s t h e s ta t e m e n t – i t is A n n e x u r e J V L 3 .

Page 64 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

Is it at page 73?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

At page 73 yes.

Ye s . Yo u s e e e v e n t h e r e y o u k n o w u n le s s t h e r e is

g o i n g t o b e , u n le s s y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e a d is p u te
w h e t h e r t h a t s t a t e m e n t , th e s i g n a tu r e t h e r e i s s o a n d s o ’s s i g n a t u r e ,
t h e p e r s o n w h o g a v e t h e s t a t e m e n t , u n le s s y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e i s g o i n g
t o b e a n is s u e a b o u t th a t , th e r e i s n o t m u c h p o in t I t h i n k in a s k i n g to
c o n fir m t h a t h e to o k t h e s ta t e m e n t, b u t i f t h e r e i s g o in g to b e a n i s s u e
a b o u t m a y b e t h a t t h e s t a t e m e n t d o e s n ’ t r e fl e c t w h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o
10

s ig n e d t h e s t a t e m e n t s a y s h a p p e n e d th e n i t m i g h t b e c o m e n e c e s s a r y
then to say okay who took the statement, and what was that person
t o l d , d i d t h a t p e r s o n c o r r e c tly p u t i n t h e s t a te m e n t w h a t th e y w e r e t o l d ,
b u t if t h e r e is g o in g to b e n o i s s u e a b o u t t h a t w e c a n m o v e o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d – y e s t h e tw o a s p e c t s I o n ly w is h to d r a w

t o y o u r a t te n ti o n i n th e s t a te m e n ts C h a ir w h i c h m a y p r o v e t o b e
c o n tr o v e r s i a l a n d a r e a ls o i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e t h e y e x p la in w h y s o m e
s u r v e il la n c e a n d m o n i to r i n g w a s c o n d u c t e d l a te r i n t h is m a t t e r.

If I

c a n j u s t r e f e r y o u t o p a g e – s o r r y i t’s p a g e 7 6 , I h o p e t h a t y o u c a n s e e
t h a t c le a r e r t h a n m i n e b e c a u s e t h e w r it i n g s e e m s to g o o v e r t h e p a g e
20

n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’v e g o t w h a t l o o k s li k e 7 6 , d o e s it s t a r t w i t h t h e

words “from SCM”?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s it d o e s C h a i r.

Ye s . Is th a t a s ta t e m e n t b y s o m e b o d y ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th is i s t h e s t a t e m e n t b y . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

Page 65 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

M o o d le y ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

M o o d l e y.

Ye s ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t w a s t a k e n b y M r G o v e n d e r.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I am just going to read the second paragraph

on that page. It says:
“ T h e n e x t d a y 6 t h M a y 2 0 1 0 . . . ” . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Why are you reading it?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O n ly b e c a u s e i t c o n fir m s t h is h a n d in g b a c k o f

d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e c l o s in g o f t h e c a s e o n i n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e P C .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i t is j u s t t h a t p a r a g r a p h C h a ir, a n d t h e r e ’s

t h a t a n d o n e fu r t h e r p a r a g r a p h , th a t ’s a ll t h a t ’s n e e d e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y, w e l l y o u c a n , e v e n i f y o u d o n ’t r e a d y o u

c a n j u s t t e ll m e t h a t t h is is w h a t t h is w i t n e s s , t h e p e r s o n w h o s i g n e d
t h is s t a te m e n t s a y s a n d t h e n h e o r s h e w i l l b e c a ll e d l a te r o n i f s h e w i ll
b e c a ll e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

I f t h a t i s n e c e s s a r y t o c o n n e c t, t o m a k e u s

u n d e r s t a n d t h is w i t n e s s ’s e v id e n c e b e t te r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t if it is n o t fo r t h a t p u r p o s e w e c a n d e a l w i th it

w h e n th a t w i tn e s s c o m e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a i r I th i n k y o u m ig h t b e a b le t o u n d e r s t a n d

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h is w i tn e s s b e t t e r i f i t c a n ju s t b e p o in t e d o u t t h a t w h a t i s s t a te d i n t h e
s t a te m e n t is t h a t B r ig a d i e r L a te g a n s t a t e d t h a t h e ’d r e c e iv e d t h e
in s t r u c t i o n fr o m t h e P C t h a t h e m u s t h a n d b a c k a l l th e d o c u m e n t s a n d
t h a t th e c a s e w a s c l o s e d , a n d a s f a r a s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d t h a t w a s t h e
e n d b u t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w d o e s s h e k n o w t h a t ’s w h a t – I t a k e – j a h o w

d o e s s h e k n o w t h a t t h a t ’s w h a t L a t e g a n w a s t o l d ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

J a , t h a t ’s h e a r s a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e s h e s a y s t h a t L a t e g a n to l d h e r th is .

Ye s , a n d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

S o w h y d o w e r e a d h e a r s a y fr o m s o m e b o d y w h e n w e

a r e h e a r i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f a n o t h e r w i tn e s s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a i r w e d o n o t n e e d t o h a v e t h e – to

d e a l w i th t h a t f u r t h e r e x c e p t t o s a y t h a t a s is s t a te d i n t h e a ff id a v i t
w h a t y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 9 . 1 2 is t h a t C o l o n e l M o o d l e y s a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s k h i m t o g iv e t h e e v i d e n c e . A s k t h e w i t n e s s to g iv e
t h e e v id e n c e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C o u l d y o u p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t i s
s t a te d i n p a r a g r a p h 9 .1 2 ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n le t u s p u t th a t d i ff e r e n tly.

r e fe r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 9 . 11 . 2 M s W e n t z e l ?
whom?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is Br ig a d i e r K e m p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is Br ig a d i e r K e m p .

Page 67 of 162

W h o is t h e h e

The he there refers to

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B r i g a d ie r K e m p C h a ir j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u w i ll b e c a ll in g h i m is i t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e h a v e n o t a s y e t s a id t h a t w e w o u ld c a ll

h i m b u t w e c e r ta i n ly c a n m a k e a t t e m p ts t o c o n s u l t w i th h i m a n d c a ll
him.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll w h y w o u l d h e n o t b e c a ll e d i f h e i s o n e o f th e

p e o p l e w h o g o t a c a ll fr o m th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r s a y i n g t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n m u s t b e s to p p e d ?

Th e o n l y r e a s o n I c a n t h i n k o f is i f

t h e r e a r e e n o u g h w it n e s s e s w h o h a v e c o r r o b o r a t e d t h a t .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t h i n k t h e r e m a y b e e n o u g h w i tn e s s e s b u t I

w i ll m a k e s u r e th a t h e i s c o n t a c t e d a n d p e r h a p s h is e v id e n c e c a n b e
le d a s w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y j u s t c o n ti n u e a n d t e l l – a n d t e ll m e m o r e a b o u t
case number 7881 what happened?
in v e s t i g a t io n , s t o p th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n .

Yo u w e r e in s tr u c te d to c l o s e t h e
Yo u h a n d e d t h e f il e b a c k t o

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a n d – b u t y o u c o n ti n u e d w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . J u s t
c o n ti n u e t h e r e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir ja w e c o n t in u e d w i t h t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d a f t e r it b e c a m e k n o w n b y t h e P C K w a Z u lu N a ta l t h a t
20

G e n e r a l D r a m a t g a v e t h e in s tr u c ti o n s f o r u s t o c o n t in u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S h e d i d n o t a tt e m p t t o – o r

in t e r fe r e w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h e r e a f t e r t o …
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e w e r e n o f u r t h e r a tt e m p ts b y h e r to s t o p t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n ?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you know how she came to know that General

D r a m a t h a d g iv e n in s t r u c ti o n s t h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s s h o u ld c o n ti n u e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a i r I d o n o t k n o w. I t h i n k t h e –
s h e m a y h a v e r e c e iv e d t h e in f o r m a t io n fr o m G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
COLONEL

VA N

LOGGERENBERG:

Because

she

must

have

a p p r o a c h e d h i m to s a y b u t t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n s c o n ti n u i n g a n d I t o l d y o u
t o s to p .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d I a m ju s t – y o u k n o w h e c o u l d
h a v e ju s t t o l d h e r b u t n o i t i s t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . O k a y c o n t in u e a n d t e ll m e e v e r y th in g th a t y o u

m i g h t n o t h a v e t o l d m e y e t a b o u t t h a t in v e s t ig a ti o n r e l a t i n g t o 7 8 1 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir fr o m t h e o u ts e t t h e c a s e w a s
a s s ig n e d t o a n A d v o c a t e B r o m le y G a n k s in D u r b a n t o d e a l w i th 7 8 1 .
B u t s h e r e s i g n e d a n d t h e n th e m a tt e r w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o A d v o c a te
A b b y L e t s h o lo fr o m t h e C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e C o u r ts .

A n d h e w a s a ls o

a p p o i n t e d in t h is A m i g o s m a t te r a s y o u a r e a w a r e o f .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

D u r i n g th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n f r o m t h e

o u t s e t A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o k n e w th a t t h e r e w a s a n A c t 7 0 o n t h e m a t t e r.
O n th e m a t te r p e r ta i n i n g t o th e th r e a t o f o u r l iv e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o l e t u s ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t th a t?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Can we…
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir d u r i n g o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n w e

a s I s a i d w e g o t th r e a ts o n o u r l iv e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is d u r in g y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In c a s e n u m b e r 7 8 1 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e t h r e a t s m a d e o n y o u r l iv e s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is n o w y o u r s e l f a n d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C o lo n e l P h il li p H e r b s t a n d C o l o n e l
S Y G o v e n d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

A n d th e th r e a t s c o m in g fr o m w h o m o r

anonymous?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir I r e c e i v e d a p h o n e c a ll f r o m
a l a d y in f o r m e d m e th a t s h e i s w o r k i n g f o r To s h a n P a n d a y a n d s h e
o v e r h e a r d h i m i n a c o n v e r s a t io n t o s o m e b o d y e ls e t h a t th e y w a n t t o
take me out and my team. She was concerned and she phoned me and
I m a k e t h e r e a n o te t h e r e o f i n m y d i a r y, o ffi c i a l d ia r y a n d I le f t it a t
20

t h a t . A n d t h e n a m o n th o r t w o t h e r e a f te r I r e c e iv e d a n o t h e r c a ll fr o m
h e r. S h e s a i d s h e is g e t ti n g w o r r i e d n o w. S h e h e a r d th e – o v e r h e a r d a
c o n v e r s a ti o n fr o m To s h a n P a n d a y t o a n o t h e r p e r s o n a g a in t h r e a t e n i n g
us.

A n d t h e n I th o u g h t o k a y w h a t I w i ll d o .

I a ls o r e c o r d e d th a t

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h m y d i a r y. S h e d id n o t w a n t t o g iv e m e h e r n a m e o r
t e ll m e w h e r e s h e is p h o n i n g fr o m o r w h a t – s h e p h o n e d m e o n m y

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la n d l in e s o I c o u l d n o t a c tu a l ly s e e w h e r e s h e w a s p h o n i n g fr o m . S o I
s u b m i tt e d a r e p o r t e d to B r i g a d ie r L a te g a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d c a n I j u s t c o n f ir m t h a t t h e – th e p a g e s o f y o u r

d i a r y w h e r e y o u r e c o r d e d t h e s e – w h a t s h e s a id i s t h a t p a r t o f w h a t i s
here or is that not here?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir t h a t is w i th I P I D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w i th I P I D ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is w i t h I P I D y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. Ye s c o n ti n u e .
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I t h e n m a d e a r e p o r t t o Br ig a d i e r

L a t e g a n w h o w a s th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m a n d e r f o r t h e C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e
C o u r ts .

H e th e n w r o t e t h e r e q u e s t t o G e n e r a l M o o d l e y fr o m C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e a n d a s k e d h i m t o – fo r o n e o f h is m e m b e r s to lo o k in t o th e
t h r e a ts , i n t o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o s e e w h a t th e y c a n s e e a n d [ in d i s ti n c t ]
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d s e e w h a t t h e y c a n f in d o u t a b o u t th e t h r e a t s
a g a in s t o u r m e m b e r s . C o l o n e l P a d a y a c h e e fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w a s
a p p o i n t e d t o d o th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d h e a p p li e d f o r a n A c t 7 0 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: What is an Act 70?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

A c t 7 0 is – p u t i t in p l a in w o r d s

C h a ir is t o t a p th e l in e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I t is – t h e A c t 7 0 is to m o n i t o r

p e o p l e ’s te l e p h o n e l i n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d h e d i d a n a p p l ic a ti o n a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e w h e r e y o u a p p ly t o a ju d g e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r p e r m is s i o n t o d o th a t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H e d id t h a t a n d t h e J u d g e a p p r o v e d
it a n d th e n h e w a s d o in g t h a t s i d e o f t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n .
10

A g a i n s t th e

t h r e a t o f o u r m e m b e r s a n d m y s e l f . T h a t A c t 7 0 h a d n o th i n g t o d o w i t h
781.

T h is – I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n n o t h in g a t a l l .

A d v o c a t e A b b y L e t s h o lo w a s a w a r e o f t h is .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is

was

now

–

t h is

was

you

said

Colonel

P a d a y a c h e e w h o w a s c o n d u c t in g t h is e x e r c is e o f li s te n i n g t o –
m o n i t o r in g .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d w h e n A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo w a s

a p p o i n t e d – w a s g iv e n t h i s m a t t e r w e to ld h i m h e w a s a w a r e o f i t a n d
A d v o c a t e W il li e M il le r h e w a s a ls o t h e r e , a ls o fr o m t h e C o m m e r c i a l
C r i m e C o u r t s a n d t h e n t h e A d v o c a t e Va n n i e G o v e n d e r s h e w a s a w a r e f
it . A n d w h a t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h o w a s Va r d ie – A d v o c a t e Va n n i e G o v e n d e r

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w h e r e w a s s h e fr o m ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e i s a l s o fr o m t h e – a c t u a l ly t h e
h e a d o f t h e O r g a n i s e d C r i m e Pr o s e c u t o r s a t P r o v i n c ia l o f K w a Z u lu
Natal.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d t h e r e w e r e m e e ti n g s b e t w e e n

u s to d is c u s s 7 8 1 a n d 4 6 6 b u t e v e r y b o d y k n e w fr o m th e o u ts e t a n d I
t o l d th e m I d o n o t n e e d a n Ac t 7 0 b e c a u s e w h a t d o I [ in d i s ti n c t ] th e A c t
7 0 f o r. I h a v e d o c u m e n t a t i o n a n d t h a t i s a ll I w a n t . A n d e v e r y b o d y w a s
10

h a p p y a n d e v e n t u a lly a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y C o lo n e l Br i a n P a d a y a c h e e
a c t u a ll y p i c k e d u p s o m e c o n v e r s a t io n s w h ic h r e l a te s t o C A S 4 6 6 t h e
c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r o f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .

A n d I k n o w th a t w a s u s e d fo r

t h a t s p e c i f ic c a s e o n ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y t h e c o r r u p t io n m a t t e r o f G e n e r a l

Booysen you are referring to the money in the boot case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : To t h e – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: That is case 466.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

correct.

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

J a th a t is

A n d w e c a r r ie d o n th e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d w e s u b m it t e d a ll t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m s e i z e s a n d s e a r c h e s a n d b a n k s a n d
w h a t n o t w e g a v e t h a t t o Tr e v o r W h i t e – Tr e v o r W h i t e fr o m P r ic e
Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s a n d h e w a s b u s y w it h th e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t.

He

d r a f t e d t h e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t . W e c a r r i e d o n t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d w e h a d
c o m e t o a p o in t w e h a d a d r a f t f o r e n s i c r e p o r t in r e s p e c t o f 7 8 1 . A n d

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
w e h a d a m e e ti n g in I t h in k i t w a s i n J a n u a r y w i t h A d v o c a t e L e t s h o l o
a n d m y s e l f , A d v o c a t e Va n n i e G o v e n d e r, C o l o n e l S Y G o v e n d e r w h e r e
w e w e n t t h r o u g h th e d r a f t r e p o r t a n d w e s p o k e a b o u t t h e e v i d e n c e
a g a in s t e a c h p e r s o n t h a t is m e n t i o n e d i n t h e d r a f t r e p o r t. F r o m t h e P C
t o M a d h o e , N a ir a n Pr a s a d , To s h a n P a n d a y h is w i f e , h i s s is t e r s , h is
b r o t h e r - in - l a w, t h e c o m p a n i e s a n d w e a ll a g r e e d a n d th e y a l l a g r e e d
t h is i s o v e r w h e l m i n g e v id e n c e . A s I s a id t h e r e is 3 7 0 p a g e s o f fo r e n s ic
r e p o r t th a t c o r r o b o r a te s t h a t .

T h e r e a r e a ff id a v i ts th a t c o r r o b o r a te s

t h a t . B u t w h e n i t c a m e to th e P C A d v o c a t e L e t s h o lo to ld m e I h a v e g o t
10

my reservations.

I w a s – I w a s s h o c k e d I j u s t lo o k e d a t h i m .

A d v o c a t e [ in d is ti n c t ] a ls o g o t m y r e s e r v a t io n s .

And

And I looked at him I

s a i d w e ll w h a t r e s e r v a t io n s h a v e y o u g o t ? T h e y c o u l d n o t a n s w e r m e .
I s a id b u t t h e e v id e n c e a g a in s t t h e o t h e r s i s 2 0 0 % a c c o r d in g t o y o u ,
a c c o r d i n g t o t h e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t , a c c o r d in g t o a ff id a v i ts .
evidence against the PC.

I t h a s g o t c a r b o n c o p ie s e x a c tly t h e s a m e .

Yo u h a v e g o t t h e f o r e n s i c r e p o r t c o r r o b o r a t in g th a t .
e v i d e n c e c o r r o b o r a ti n g t h a t.
[i n d is t in c t] .

There is

W e g o t th e

W e h a v e g o t t h e e v id e n c e fr o m t h e

W e h a v e g o t e v id e n c e – b a n k s t a te m e n ts .

To s h a n

P a n d a y ’s c a r d h a s b e e n u s e d . N o th e r e i s n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t
20

the PC.
CHAIRPERSON: Now with regard to the PC the conduct for which she
w a s s o u g h t to b e c h a r g e d o r p r o s e c u t e d w a s i t t h e f a c t t h a t s h e g a v e
in s t r u c t i o n s to s to p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o r w a s it t h a t – o r w a s i t a n y t h i n g
a b o u t h e r r o l e i n M r P a n d a y p a y i n g f o r h e r b ir th – h e r h u s b a n d ’s
b ir t h d a y p a r ty ?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t i s – y o u r i g h t C h a ir t h a t is h e r
g r a t u it y t h a t s h e r e c e iv e d fr o m To s h a n P a n d a y t h e b u s i n e s s m a n h e
p a i d f o r h e r [ in d is ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h it w a s a ls o t h e r e c e i p t o f m o n e y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m M r P a n d a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. J a .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

J a s o i t w a s t h e r e c e i p t o f th a t m o n e y a n d th e

a r g u m e n t m u s t h a v e b e e n th a t i t w a s c o r r u p t.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o r r u p ti o n .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e r e is a c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Br ib e r y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n w a s th e in s t r u c ti o n to s to p t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n
a ls o p a r t o f t h e c o n d u c t th a t w a s …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s i t i s o b v i o u s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

W h y d i d s h e i n s tr u c t t h e n to s t o p

t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e k n e w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e s h e g o t t h e m o n e y.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

She knew she was going to be

e x p o s e d a t s o m e s ta g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o w a s s a y i n g h e h a d r e s e r v a t io n s
b u t y o u a s k e d h i m t o t e l l y o u w h a t th e r e s e r v a t io n s w e r e a n d h e c o u ld –
he did not tell you.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e c o u l d n o t te ll m e , n e i t h e r o f

them.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o o u t o f fr u s tr a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t o l d t h e m , l o o k i f y o u d o n o t w a n t
t o c h a r g e t h e P C w h y d o y o u w a n t to c h a r g e r e s t?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. And what was the answer?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : It w a s q u i e t C h a ir. B e c a u s e I w a s
r e a l ly – I w a s c l o s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n th e a n a l y s i s o f w h a t w a s b e f o r e t h e m A d v o c a t e

L e t s h o l o a n d w h o e v e r a n d o n t h e b a s is o f t h e d is c u s s i o n d id y o u f o r m
20

a n y v i e w a s to w h e t h e r t h e d e c i s i o n o r h is v i e w t h a t h e h a d
r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s h o u l d b e
c h a r g e d w h e th e r th a t w a s b a s e d o n g o o d f a i t h g r o u n d s th a t y o u m i g h t
n o t a g r e e w i t h ? O r d id y o u th in k t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g u n to w a r d a b o u t
it ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir m y g u t w h e n I l e f t th a t

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
m e e ti n g , m y g u t t o l d m e t h is i s a p o li t ic a l – t h i s is a p o li ti c a l d e c is io n .
E v e r y b o d y k n o w s w h a t – w e l l w e t h e in v e s ti g a to r s k n e w th a t To s h a n
P a n d a y h a d a b u s i n e s s r e la t io n s h ip w it h t h e e x P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s s o n
E d w a r d . A n d t h e n fo r A d v o c a te – A d v o c a t e L e t h s o lo th e a s k i n g m e w e ll
w h y i s th e Ac t 7 0 i n c a s e n u m b e r 7 8 1 ?

I said the Act 70 has got

n o t h i n g t o d o w i th 7 8 1 . B u t t h e n h e t o l d m e b u t r e y o u s e e n t h a t o n e to
c o m p il e t h i s d o c k e t – t h e 7 – t h e c a s e 7 8 1 – I s a i d t h e r e i s n o e v i d e n c e
fr o m th e 7 8 1 w a s u s e d f o r t h is d o c k e t .

And we did not use anything

b e c a u s e I d i d n o t n e e d i t. A s I s a y w e s e a r c h e d , w e s e iz e d , w e g o t t h e
10

b a n k i n fo r m a ti o n .

W e s e a r c h e d t h e P r o v in c e , w e s e a r c h e d p r e m is e s .

T h e f o r e n s i c r e p o r t i s th e r e .

Corroborate what we have got in the

a ffi d a v i ts . Ev e r y t h i n g is i n fr o n t o f y o u . J a I k n e w it m y g u t w a s – it
w a s a p o l i tic a l d e c is i o n a n d t h e n w h e n h e t o l d m e a f te r w a r d s t h a t w e ll
t h e Ac t 7 0 i s t h e r e a s o n I j u s t s a i d w e l l y o u c a n d o w h a t y o u w a n t . Yo u
s h o w m e i n 7 8 1 o r i n t h e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t a n y p i e c e o f e v i d e n c e c o m i n g
fr o m th e A c t 7 0 I w il l a g r e e w i th y o u .

I g o t Tr e v o r W h i te fr o m Pr ic e

Wa t e r h o u s e a n d C o o p e r s h e w r o t e a m e m o c o n fir m i n g a l l t h e e v id e n c e
in t h e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t a n d i n t h e d o c k e t 7 8 1 – A c t 7 0 h a d n o t h i n g t o d o
w i t h t h a t i n v e s t i g a t io n . W e n e v e r u s e d a n y t h i n g fr o m – w e d o n o t e v e n
20

k n o w w h a t w a s g o in g o n in t h e A c t 7 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w h e n y o u t o l d A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o t h i s a n d

w h o e v e r h e w a s w it h th a t w e n e v e r u s e d a n y t h i n g f r o m w h a t y o u c a ll
A c t 7 0 fo r th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n w h a t w a s h is r e s p o n s e ? D i d h e h a v e – d id
h e s a y n o b u t I c a n s e e y o u u s e d i t l o o k a t th is ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir h e c o u l d n o t g e t t h a t f a r. H e

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t o l d m e t h a t i n p r e v i o u s c a s e s h e h a d b e f o r e w h e r e th e p o lic e to ld h i m
the Act 70 was involved he never had Act 70.

H is – I c a n s t il l

r e m e m b e r h is w o r d s , h e g o t e g g o n h is fa c e a n d b u t h e n e v e r a c t u a ll y
c o u l d h a v e to l d m e o r c o u l d h a v e s h o w n m e a n y w h e r e i n 7 8 1 . H e j u s t
k e p t o n s a y i n g a n d I k n e w it n o w h e u s e d i t a s o n ly a n e x c u s e n o t t o
p r o s e c u t e t h e m a t te r a n d a l s o o b v io u s ly t h e p o l i ti c a l d e c is i o n a s fa r a s
I am concerned.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a r e y o u a b le t o s a y if h e w a s b a s i n g h is d e c is i o n
o n w h a t y o u h a d p u t b e f o r e h i m t h e n t h e r e r e a l ly w a s n o t h i n g th a t
10

c o n n e c t e d t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d A c t 7 0 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Nothing

c o n n e c t e d i t , n o th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

If t h e r e w a s a n y – if h e w a s – if t h e r e w a s a n y th in g

h e m u s t h a v e b e e n – h e m u s t h a v e l e a r n t i t fr o m s o m e w h e r e e ls e b u t
not on what was before him?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o t h in g C h a ir n o t h in g w h a ts o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 2 0 0 % . T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d a l l t h e o t h e r I O ’s i n t h is 7 8 1

c a n t e s t i fy Pr ic e W a te r h o u s e C o o p e r s I b e li e v e is g o i n g t o c o m e .
N o t h i n g , n o th i n g w a s u s e d . B u t h e ju s t, h e w a s b l u n t i n u s i n g t h e A c t
70 as an excuse.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B e c a u s e – y o u r – a p p a r e n tly

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e to h i m fr o m To s h a n P a n d a y in r e s p e c t o f
781 not to prosecute.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see those representations?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir, n o w e n e v e r s a w t h a t .

W e w e r e n o t e v e n a w a r e o f th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e h a v i n g t h is d i s c u s s i o n w i th
him.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Did he at that stage tell you that there were

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s r e c e iv e d fr o m M r P a n d a y o r is th a t s o m e th in g y o u
heard later?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o – n o S i r th a t w a s s o m e t h i n g w e
h e a r d la t e r. B e c a u s e a ft e r t h i s m e e ti n g w e j u s t le f t a n d t h e n m y w i fe
g o t s ic k a n d d u r i n g M a r c h t h a t s a m e y e a r h e h e l d a n o t h e r m e e t in g w i t h
C o l o n e l G o v e n d e r a n d w it h – a n d a t t h a t m e e t in g w a s A d v o c a te
L e t s h o l o a s I c a n r e c a ll , C o l o n e l J o n e s a n d C o lo n e l S Y G o v e n d e r. A n d
t h e n h e s a id w e l l l o o k h e h a s m a d e u p h is m i n d h e i s n o t g o in g t o
p r o s e c u t e . H e s a id p r e s e n ta t io n s w e r e m a d e a n d i n t h e p r e s e n ta t io n s
that is what is conveyed now to me by Colonel Govender because I was

20

s ic k a t h o m e . H e p h o n e d m e d u r i n g t h e m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s th e p r a c t ic e – w o u l d t h e p r a c tic e n o t b e t h a t
if t h e p r o s e c u t o r s r e c e iv e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s fr o m a s u s p e c t o r f r o m a n
a c c u s e d p e r s o n th a t t h e y s h o u l d n o t b e p r o s e c u te d w o u l d t h e p r a c ti c e
n o t b e th a t b e f o r e t h e p r o s e c u t o r s m a k e a n y d e c is io n o n th o s e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s th e y w o u l d c o n s u l t th e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ff ic e r a n d s a y,

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h is is w h a t i s b e in g s a i d , w h a t d o y o u h a v e – w h a t d o y o u h a v e to s a y
on this?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir t h a t is t h e n o r m a l p r a c t ic e

a n d I a g r e e w i th y o u , t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d . W i t h o u t t h e c a s e s w h ic h
we

had.

But

not

with

this

one.

We

never

knew

about

t h is

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g w i t h

Colonel S Y Govender I was not present where Colonel Jones showed
10

u p t h e fir s t ti m e .

D u r in g t h e w h o l e c o u r s e o f th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e

n e v e r r e p o r t e d t o h i m . W e n e v e r t o ld h i m th e n i t ty g r i t ty o f a n y t h in g i n
any of these cases. We sidestepped him for reasons but we reported to
General Booysen and General Dramat. All of a sudden Colonel Jones
is s i t ti n g h e r e n e x t t o A d v o c a t e L e t s h o lo . A d v o c a t e L e t s h o lo i n fo r m e d
h i m C o l o n e l G o v e n d e r n o r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e a n d a p p a r e n t ly i t
w a s h e a r d fr o m t h e li n e s t h a t w e c a n w o r k o u t h is d e f e n c e a n d th is a n d
t h a t a n d w h a t e v e r t h e c a s e m a y b e b u t a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e t h e r e w a s
n o t e v e n a d r a ft c h a r g e s h e e t .

There was nothing.

Thoshan Panday

c o u l d h a v e k n o w n a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e o r a t th e p o i n t I a m g o i n g t o
20

a r r e s t h i m w h a t th e d e fe n c e c a n b e b e c a u s e w e d i d n o t h a v e a c h a r g e
s h e e t . S o t h a t i t i s b a s e l e s s in f o r m a t io n t h a t h e i s tr y i n g t o s e ll t o S Y
G o v e n d e r. Th e n w e h a v e b e e n to ld t h a t t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s w e r e g i v e n
t o C o l o n e l J o n e s . W h e th e r i n v e s ti g a to r th a t C o l o n e l J o n e s i n v e s t ig a t e d
o r n o t I d o n o t k n o w. B u t w e k n e w t h a t i t w a s g iv e n t o C o l o n e l J o n e s .
Colonel Govender requested a copy of that.

Page 80 of 162

They did not – they

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
r e fu s e d t o g iv e it to h i m a n d t h a t w a s h i s d e c is i o n . N o t t h e r e p o r t h e
said that is it.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u s a i d t h a t A d v o c a t e L e ts h o lo a s I – i f I

u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c tly w a s o f t h e o p in i o n t h a t i n r e g a r d t o t h e o t h e r
p e o p l e t h e r e w a s s u ffi c i e n t e v i d e n c e b u t n o t a g a in s t t h e Pr o v i n c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r, d id I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly ?

In r e g a r d t o t h e s a m e

case 781?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did – is – was that the opinion he expressed that in
10

r e g a r d t o t h e o t h e r p e o p l e , o th e r s u s p e c t s in t h e s a m e c a s e th e r e w a s
enough case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a g a i n s t th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w a s n o t o n e o f th e o t h e r p e o p le M r P a n d a y ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s M r P a n d a y, C o l o n e l M a d h o e ,

Captain Naran Pasad.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e w h o l e b u n c h j a .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o i n r e g a r d to Mr P a n d a y – M r P a n d a y w a s o n e
o f th o s e s u s p e c ts i n r e s p e c t o f w h o m h e s a i d t h e r e w a s e n o u g h
evidence?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u t h e n in v o k e d t o w h a t y o u r e f e r to a s Ac t
7 0 w a s h e in v o k i n g it t o s a y I a m n o t g o in g t o c h a r g e a n y b o d y e v e n

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
t h o s e a g a i n s t w h o m I t h i n k t h e r e i s e n o u g h e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e o f t h is
A c t 7 0 o r h e w a s s a y i n g , I a m i n v o k in g A c t 7 0 t o s a y I w il l n o t c h a r g e –
I w i ll n o t p r o s e c u t e t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r b u t I w ill p r o s e c u t e th e
r e s t o f t h e p e o p le in c l u d i n g M r P a n d a y ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o C h a ir h e u s e d t h e A c t 7 0 a s a n
e x c u s e n o t to c h a r g e a n y b o d y i n 7 8 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o b o d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H e u s e d t h e A c t 7 0 f o r a ll o f t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t h e n h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n r e g a r d t o t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r h e w a s
s a y in g t h e r e is n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e i n a n y e v e n t ?

T h a t w a s h is

opinion.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W e ll h e d id n o t s a y t h a t b e c a u s e h e
– t h e o n l y t h in g h e t o l d m e is t h a t w e l l I h a v e g o t m y r e s e r v a t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d h e c o u ld n o t a n s w e r m e w h e n I
20

asked him.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.

Th a n k y o u .

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s

W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: If – you can now turn to page 99.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e to – o k a y – m a y b e th a t i s w h e r e y o u a r e g o in g .
A r e y o u c o m p l e ti n g a s to t h e f o r m a l d e c i s io n th a t w a s m a d e o r n o t –

Page 82 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
n o t r e a l ly ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h is i s a n i n t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir d a te d
t h e 2 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 fr o m A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o t o A d v o c a t e B i m b a n e t o
e x p l a i n w h y h e b e li e v e d th a t th e A c t 7 0 a n d th e s e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s
meant that he should not persecute?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th a t is f in e . L e t u s – l e t u s g o t h e r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o i t is t h e 2 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a n d I a m j u s t g o in g
10

t o a s k y o u C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g d i d y o u t h e n c o m m e n t o n th is
memorandum?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir w e d i d c o m m e n t o n t h i s

memorandum.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y th e m e m o r a n d u m w a s a d d r e s s e d t o

Advocate Bulelwa Bimbane by Advocate T A Letsholo. How did it get to
you?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S ir w h e n I g o t b a c k t o w o r k a f te r

s ic k le a v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A copy was given to Colonel

G o v e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th a t i s h o w y o u g o t i t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B e c a u s e t h i s m u s t fi l e d in t h e

Page 83 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
docket you see.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. So you got to see it?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I g o t – j a I g o t t o s e e t h is o n e j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y c o n ti n u e M s W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a i r w i t h y o u r le a v e I p r o p o s e g o in g

t h r o u g h w h a t w a s s a i d a n d th e n C h a ir i f y o u t h e n h a v e r e g a r d to t h e
d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 1 0 6 th e c o m p l e t e d o c u m e n t C h a i r y o u w il l fi n d – y o u
w i ll s e e t h a t th a t d o c u m e n t i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 11 4 i t i s n o t c o m p le t e .
B u t a c o m p le t e c o p y w a s o b ta i n e d f r o m t h e d o c k e t – I a m a fr a i d i t w a s
10

o n ly a t t a i n e d t h is m o r n i n g C h a i r a n d I a s k e d t h a t i t b e in c l u d e d in th e
b u n d l e . Yo u w il l fi n d i t a t p a g e 3 0 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fir s t y o u s a i d le t u s g o to p a g e 9 9 . Ar e y o u s a y i n g

t h a t t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n ts a r e a t t a c h m e n t s t o t h e m e m o r a n d u m a t p a g e
99?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . S o t h e r e is t h e m e m o r a n d u m a t p a g e 9 9
a n d t h e n t h e r e i s a r e s p o n s e w h i c h y o u w ill s e e a s d ir e c t e d a n d if y o u
lo o k a t p a g e 1 0 6 a n d t h e n i n q u i r i e s C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g ’s n a m e
is t h e r e .

A n d i t is a d d r e s s e d t o th e D ir e c to r a t e f o r P r i o r i t y C r i m e

I n v e s ti g a t i o n .
20

I t w a s d ir e c t e d t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t .

A n d i t is t h e

r e s p o n s e t o w h a t w a s s a i d b y A d v o c a te L e ts h o l o a s t o t h e r e a s o n s w h y
h e w a s g o in g to w it h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t e v e r y b o d y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h i n k w h a t w e n e e d t o d o i s – y o u r e a d th is

m e m o r a n d u m f r o m A d v o c a t e L e t s h o l o a t t h e t i m e , is t h a t r i g h t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And you have had a chance to refresh your memory

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
o n i t r e c e n tl y, is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is r i g h t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t th e m a in r e a s o n s h e g a v e fo r h is
v ie w t h a t h e s h o u ld n o t c h a r g e t h e s u s p e c ts i n c a s e n u m b e r 7 8 1 ? S o
in o t h e r w o r d s I d o n o t w a n t u s n e c e s s a r ily t o r e a d t h is . I f y o u a r e a b le
t o s a y a s I r e c a l l th e m a i n r e a s o n s w e r e t h e f o ll o w i n g a , b , c d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
Act 70 was used.

C h a ir t h e [i n d is t i n c t] w a s t h a t t h e

In f o r m a t io n fr o m t h e A c t 7 0 w a s u s e d .

H e l is t e d

s o m e c a s e s h e r e i n th e p a s t w h e r e w h e n A c t 7 0 w a s u s e d i n a c a s e a n d
10

it w a s n o t k n o w n t o t h e d e f e n c e o r w h a t e v e r t h e c a s e m a y b e y o u k n o w
t h a t is w h a t h e to l d m e – e g g o n h is f a c e . A n d h e tr ie d t o m a k e o u t
t h a t I w a s p e r s o n a lly g o in g fo r th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r w h ic h is
n o t tr u e b e c a u s e – in h is r e p o r t i t s a i d t h a t t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y h e s a i d
t h a t is b e c a u s e w h a t I to ld m e in m y m e e ti n g w h e n I h a d w i t h M s
[i n d is t in c t] i f y o u d o n o t w a n t to c h a r g e th e P C w e ll w h y d o y o u w a n t to
c h a r g e th e o t h e r s . O u t o f f r u s t r a t io n I s a id t h a t . S o h e w a s tr y in g t o
u s e t h a t t o m a k e o u t t h a t I a m p e r s is t in g t o j u s t c h a r g e th e P C .
CHAIRPERSON:

Just on that one.

A t y o u r m e e ti n g w h e r e h e

e x p r e s s e d h is r e s e r v a t i o n s a b o u t c h a r g in g o r p r o s e c u ti n g th e P r o v i n c ia l
20

C o m m i s s i o n e r d id h e a t s o m e s t a g e t a lk t o y o u o n t h e b a s is t h a t th e r e
may

be

reason

to

charge

the

others

but

not

the

Pr o v in c i a l

Commissioner?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e

e v i d e n c e o f a ll t h e o t h e r s f ir s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d h e s a i d th e r e w a s a c a s e ?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t t h e r e w a s a c a s e b u t w e – a n d
then I said, well we done everything and then I told him well we have
n o t s p o k e n a b o u t th e T C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

The PC.

A n d t h e n h e s a i d , w e ll

t h a t i s w h e n h e t o l d m e h e g o t t h e r e s e r v a t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A b o u t r e s e r v a ti o n s .

Okay alright.

So he was now

u s i n g t h a t i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m to s a y y o u w e r e g o i n g f o r t h e P C fo r
s o m e ill e g i t i m a te r e a s o n ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a p e r s o n a ll y j a .
CHAIRPERSON: Therefore personal reasons.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. A lr i g h t .

Were those the main reasons as far

a s y o u c a n r e c a l l?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir a n d a ls o o t h e r t h i n g s

about the presentations that we made but I cannot comment on what he
w r o t e a b o u t t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s b e c a u s e I h a v e n e v e r s e e n th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

Yo u k n o w f o r m e i t c o u l d b e w h a t

h e – I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n th a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . N o t h a t is f in e . M s W e n tz e l y o u c a n h i g h li g h t

s o m e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t t h e w it n e s s m i g h t n o t h a v e m e n ti o n e d w h ic h
are in the memorandum.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t r e a d in g to o m u c h .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

F ir s t ly c a n w e h a v e a

lo o k w h a t i s s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h 3 . 2 o n p a g e 1 0 0 ? I t s a y s :
“ I t is i m p o r ta n t t o n o t e t h a t a t n o s t a g e w h a ts o e v e r
w a s I i n f o r m e d b y th e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffic e r s i n t h is
c a s e th a t th e r e a r e t a p e r e c o r d in g s a v a i l a b l e i n t h is
m a t t e r. T h e fir s t t i m e I b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h is s p e c i fi c
is s u e w a s a s a r e s u l t o f t h e i r r e p r e s e n t a t io n s m a d e
o n b e h a l f o f To s h a n P a n d a y.

10

F u r t h e r m o r e t h e r e is

n o t h i n g in t h e d o c k e t t o s u g g e s t o r i n d ic a t e t h a t
t h e r e w a s a n a p p li c a t io n m a d e fo r t h e a u th o r it y t o
p e r m it

the

p o lic e

to

m o n i to r

c e r ta i n

telephone

c o n v e r s a ti o n s … n a t u r e o f t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n s o f th is
m a t t e r i s s tr a i g h tf o r w a r d a n d t h e r e w a s n o n e e d fo r
a n a p p li c a t io n o f t h i s n a tu r e t o b e m a d e . ”
N o w f ir s t ly y o u s a id i t w a s n o t t r u e t h a t h e d i d n o t k n o w.

Is that

correct?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir t h a t is a li e . H e k n e w a b o u t
20

it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t - t h a t h e - h e k n e w t h a t a n a p p li c a t io n h a d b e e n
m a d e f o r a u t h o r i ty t o m o n i t o r c e r ta in t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e k n e w t h a t h e a n d h e - d i d h e a ls o k n o w t h a t t h a t
r e l a t e d t o t h r e a t s t o y o u r l iv e s ?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d a ls o t h a t
s o m e o f t h e r e c o r d in g s t h e r e w e r e u s e d i n 4 6 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H e a ls o k n e w th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : H e k n e w t h a t b e c a u s e w e j u s t t o l d
h i m f r o m t h e o u ts e t w h e n h e j o i n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

A n d n o w to s a y th is .

He never

knew that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t is - i t is a n a b s o l u t e li e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h e n h e s a y s h e w a s n o t to l d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n
a p p lic a ti o n f o r th e a u t h o r i ty t o p e r m i t t h e p o lic e to m o n i t o r te l e p h o n e
c o n v e r s a ti o n s o r w h e n h e s a y s th e in v e s ti g a t o r s i n t h is c a s e d i d n o t t e l l
h i m t h a t t h e r e - th e r e w e r e t a p e r e c o r d i n g s a n d th a t h e b e c a m e a w a r e
o f t h is s p e c i f ic is s u e w a s a s a r e s u l t o f r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s m a d e o n b e h a l f
o f M r T h o s h a n P a n d a y.
A s I u n d e r s ta n d i t a n d y o u m u s t te ll m e i f m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

20

is c o r r e c t . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th a t y o u a s t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s o r n o b o d y
a p p li e d t o a J u d g e t o o b ta i n p e r m is s i o n to m o n it o r t h e s e t e l e p h o n e
c o n v e r s a ti o n s fo r p u r p o s e s o f p u r s u i n g y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s u n d e r 7 8 1 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: That never happened?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Th e a p p lic a ti o n t o a J u d g e f o r a u t h o r i t y t o m o n i to r

c o n v e r s a ti o n s r e l a te d to t h e t h r e a t s t o th e liv e s o f t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h a t b e i n g s a id C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g
w a s th e r e a n y r e a s o n f o r t h e 7 8 1 - I m e a n .

F o r t h e m o n i to r i n g

a p p lic a ti o n t o b e in t h e d o c k e t i n c a s e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: In case number 781?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir.

No.

From the outset it

w a s k n o w n t h a t I a m n o t g o i n g t o u s e A c t 7 0 f o r 7 8 1 , b e c a u s e i t is n o t
n e c e s s a r y. I t i s n o t a m u r d e r c a s e . I t is a - i t is a p a p e r tr a i l . I t is a
c o m m e r c ia l c a s e .

I t is e a s y.

Yo u - F o r e n s ic A u d i t o r c o r r o b o r a t e s

in f o r m a ti o n . W h y w o u l d I u s e Ac t 7 0 ? Fo r w h a t p u r p o s e s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n i t i s a ls o s a id i n p a r a g r a p h 3 :
“On 14 February 2014, I was provided with a copy
of

r e p r e s e n ta t io n s

made

on

behalf

of

T h o s h a n P a n d a y. ”
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o r r y. W h i c h p a g e is t h a t /
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y. I t is p a g e 1 0 0 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : P a r a g r a p h ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Three.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h r e e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 . 3 , is i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : It is t h r e e a n d I a m a c t u a ll y g o i n g b a c k u p t o
three and 3.1 and it says:
“ O n 1 4 F e b r u a r y, I w a s p r o v i d e d w i t h a c o p y o f th e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s

made

on

behalf

of

T h o s h a n P a n d a y. ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : “ In t h o s e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s m e n ti o n is
10

made of the recordings which were played to
Thoshan Panday

d u r in g

1 8 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11

at

a

m e e ti n g

K w a Z u l u - N a ta l

held

on

SAPS

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d q u a r t e r s in G e n e r a l D i n a M o o d l e y ’s
o ffic e a n d i n th e p r e s e n c e o f G e n e r a l D i n a M o o d le y
u p o n h i s i n s tr u c t io n s . T h e r e c o r d i n g s c o n s i s te d o f
r e c o r d e d t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s T h o s h a n P a n d a y
h a d w i t h v a r i o u s p e o p l e in c l u d i n g a m o n g s t o th e r s
t h e K w a Z u l u - N a ta l Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d
T h o s h a n P a n d a y ’s a tt o r n e y. ”
20

N o w y o u m e n ti o n e d e a r l i e r th a t i t is l a t e r a n d I - I w il l ta k e
y o u t o i t . Av e r C h a ir, b u t t h is is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s it is a n o th e r g r o u n d
t h a t w a s g iv e n b y t h e a d v o c a t e fo r n o t p u r s u i n g w it h - p u r s u i n g t h e
m a t t e r a n d p r o c e e d i n g w i t h t h e p r o s e c u ti o n s w a s t h a t th e r e w a s t h is
b r e a c h o f a t t o r n e y a n d c l ie n t p r iv i l e g e a n d T h o s h a n P a n d a y h a d b e e n
t o l d t h a t t h e y k n e w w h a t h is d e fe n c e w a s .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, fir s t o f a ll w e d i d n o t s e e th e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .

S o th e c o r r e c t n e s s o f w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e I a m n o t

aware

My

of

it.

comment

on

what

is

w r it t e n

here

is

that

Thoshan Panday at that stage could not have known what the charges
is g o i n g to b e a g a i n s t h i m . T h e r e is n o d r a ft c h a r g e s h e e t.
H o w c a n h e a t t h is p o i n t in ti m e o r T h o s h a n P a n d a y a l l e g e
that

everybody

knew

-

a c c o r d in g

to

th e

recordings

which

the

p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s m a d e t o h i m n o w t h a t h e c a n s a y t h a t n o w w e k n o w
w h a t y o u r d e f e n c e is ? Th a t i s n o n s e n s e . N o b o d y k n o w s e v e n w h a t t h e
10

c h a r g e i s g o i n g t o b e a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y. H o w a r e w e g o i n g t o k n o w
w h a t y o u r d e f e n c e is ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l is t h e p o s i t io n n o t t h a t i f h e k n e w w h a t w a s

b e i n g in v e s t i g a t e d n a m e l y t h a t h e p a i d m o n e y t o t h e Pr o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r.

H e p a id f o r t h e b ir th d a y p a r ty o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l

C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s h u s b a n d . H e m a y h a v e b e e n a b l e t o h a v e a n i d e a w h a t
t h e p o s s ib l e c h a r g e c o u l d b e e v e n if i t h a d n o t b e e n d r a ft - f o r m a ll y
d r a f t e d . T h a t i t w o u l d b e … ( i n te r v e n e s ) …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I a g r e e C h a ir t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o r r u p ti o n .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I a g r e e C h a ir t h a t t h e p e r s o n w o u ld
h a v e a n i d e a w h a t h e i s g o i n g to b e c h a r g e d w it h , b u t i t is j u s t a n id e a .
I m e a n to w o r k o u t a n i d e a is - a n d h e h a s n o t r e c e i v e d o r h e h a s n o t
b e e n s e r v e d t h e - th e c h a r g e s h e e t - t h e i n d ic t m e n t . Th e n s u r e ly o n ly
w h e n y o u r e c e iv e t h e in d ic t m e n t th e n y o u a r e a c t u a ll y a w a r e e x a c tly
h o w t o w o r k y o u r d e f e n c e o u t a n d h o w y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a n d l e t h is

Page 91 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
c a s e i n th e f ir s t p la c e , b u t tr y i n g t o s a y t h a t t h e i d e a s - I k n o w w h a t
y o u a r e g o in g t o c h a r g e m e f o r a n d s o t h e id e a o f - I - I c a n n o t - c a n n o t
g e t t h a t t o g e th e r.
T h a t w e k n o w w h a t h i s d e fe n c e c a n b e a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e ,
b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o i n d ic t m e n t a t t h a t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f h e - i f h e k n e w th a t w h a te v e r t h e c h a r g e is . I t
- it revolved around either bribery or corruption.

M a y b e - ja -

c o r r u p ti o n a r i s i n g o u t o f t h e f a c t t h a t h e g a v e m o n e y t o t h e Pr o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r.
10

H e c o u l d t h i n k o f w h a t e x p l a n a t i o n h e w o u l d g iv e f o r

w h y h e g a v e th a t m o n e y a n d t h a t e x p l a n a ti o n th a t h e c o u l d t h in k o f
c o u l d b e a d e fe n c e t o s a y t h e r e w a s n o t h in g w r o n g w it h t h a t m o n e y.
Yo u k n o w. S h e - s h e o w e d m e a c e r t a i n a m o u n t . I c a n p r o v e
it o r I o w e d h e r a c e r ta i n a m o u n t. I c a n p r o v e i t . I w a s j u s t r e f u n d i n g
h e r. S o fr o m th a t c o n - p e r s p e c ti v e …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a . I a g r e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m a y h a v e b e e n p o s s i b l e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I a g r e e w i t h y o u i t is p o s s i b le C h a i r
fr o m t h a t p e r s p e c t iv e . Ye s , b u t t h a t is - th a t is j u s t t h e w a y I - I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w y o u s a w i t . J a .

20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is - th a t i s h o w I s a w i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

N o w i f w e c a n g o b a c k to y o u r

a ffi d a v i t .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o r e f e r t o a n o th e r

d o c u m e n t w h e r e I b e li e v e d y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h i s w i tn e s s r e s p o n d e d t o
the points made …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . Ye s . I …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I d id C h a ir. S o i f y o u j u s t b e a r w i t h m e . I a m
going to get there.
CHAIRPERSON: Well let us - let us cover that before you move …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : G o b a c k t o t h e a ff i d a v i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I w il l d o t h a t . Ye s . S o r r y C h a ir. I f y o u w il l

ju s t b e a r w it h m e . I ju s t n e e d t o f in d m y p l a c e a n d j u s t my r e f e r e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e r e i s a d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 0 6 a n d th e n I th in k y o u
h a d r e fe r r e d t o p a g e 1 - 1 - 4 …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t s o m e s t a g e . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h a t is t h e e n d
of that …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Document.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t is w h a t I w a s tr y i n g t o e x p la in t o y o u

C h a ir b e f o r e w e w e n t b a c k . I s t h e - i s t h i s d o c u m e n t w h i c h is a n n e x e d
t o t h e a ff i d a v i t a s A n n e x u r e J V L 6 a n d i t i s w h ic h t h e w i t n e s s h a s s a i d
was

the

response

to

the

a v e r m e n ts

that

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t I a m s a y in g is …

Page 93 of 162

were

made

by

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w t h is i s i n c o m p l e te …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And you can see that it - it does not need. So
I a s k th a t w e o b t a i n a c o m p l e te c o p y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th a t w a s o b t a i n e d t h i s m o r n i n g C h a i r fr o m
t h e a c t u a l d o c k e t a n d y o u fi n d t h a t d o c u m e n t a s a n a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n t
w h ic h h a s b e e n p l a c e d i n t o y o u r b u n d l e C h a ir a n d it is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s t a lk a b o u t …
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: At page 3-0-8.
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Let us talk about what
n e e d s to b e d o n e . T h e n w e c a n …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k fo r t h e d o c u m e n ts i n t h e b u n d l e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h e w i t n e s s p r e p a r e d a d o c u m e n t th a t w a s i n e ff e c t
a r e s p o n s e t o A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo ’s m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w e h a v e j u s t d e a l t
with.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e n e e d t o d e a l w i t h th a t d o c u m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w i t n e s s n e e d s t o c o n fir m t h a t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is h is d o c u m e n t a n d th e n h e n e e d s t o - o r y o u

n e e d t o t a k e h i m to t h e m a i n p o i n ts h e m a k e s in t h e …

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Document. Even - even if you …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I i n te n d t o d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Do not go through everything …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e r y t h in g .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I - I i n t e n d t o d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

C o u ld y o u h a v e a l o o k a t th e d o c u m e n t o n

page 3-0-8?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I think I have - in the past asked that the legal team
s h o u l d t e ll th e p e o p l e w h o p a g i n a t e b u n d l e s n o t t o w r i t e o n t o p o f th e
red page numbers.

Yo u s e e n o w o n s o m e o f t h e p a g e s y o u l o o k a n d

y o u c a n n o t s e e w h a t th e r e d n u m b e r is …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e t h e y h a v e w r i t t e n s o m e t h i n g e ls e o n t o p o f

it .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. I t h i n k t o b e f a i r t o t h e m t h a t w h a t
20

h a s h a p p e n e d is t h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s h a v e b e e n t a k e n o u t o f t h e
d o c k e t a n d th e y p a g in a t e d i n - i n t h e d o c k e t o r i n - i n m a t t e r s b e f o r e
court. They are paginated. They are scanned.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e r e d p a g in a ti o n is o u r s . Is i t n o t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e r e d is o u r a n d th a t th e n e n d s u p g o in g o n
t o p , b u t o n e c a n n o t s e e i t.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . O h . Is i t t h e r e d t h a t is o n t o p o f …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I - I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e b la c k ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I b e l ie v e s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e n w h o e v e r i t is - is i t n o t t h e s a m e p e o p le .

They must just make sure then the - the ones who put the red numbers
s h o u l d j u s t m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y a r e n o t p u t t o g e t h e r w i t h s o m e t h i n g
e ls e b e c a u s e t h e n w e c a n n o t s e e w h a t th e p a g e n u m b e r is .

I t h in k I

h a d a s k e d t h a t t h e y d o t h a t i n t h e p a s t. S o …
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s a n d I - I u n d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y c a n r e p e a t t h a t t o th e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. I w i ll a n d I a m h a v in g e x a c t ly t h e
s a m e d i ffic u l t y a s y o u . I o f t e n h a v e t o lo o k a t t h e f o ll o w i n g p a g e t o s e e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t th is p a g e n u m b e r is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is - i t i s …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t d o e s m a k e i t v e r y d i ff ic u l t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is - i t i s c o m m o n s e n s e .

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s a n d w e w il l - I w il l t a k e i t u p w it h th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Could you have a look at page 3-1-6?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 3 - 1 - 6 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Is that your signature?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th is a r e s p o n s e th a t y o u c o m p i l e d t o t h e
r e a s o n s p r o v i d e d b y A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o w h y h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o p u r s u e
781?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir. I w a s t h e a u t h o r, b u t i t
w a s d o n e w i t h C o lo n e l G o v e n d e r a n d C o lo n e l P h i ll ip H e r b s t . W e a l l s a t
t o g e th e r a n d … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Te l l u s w h a t t h e m a i n p o i n ts a r e th a t y o u
10

put

in

this

memorandum

to

express

your

views

about

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ’s m e m o r a n d u m .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, i f I c a n r e c a l l i s t h a t I t h i n k
we - we mentioned that there was no …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e g iv e n to

u s i n th e fir s t p la c e a n d a l s o t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u s a y - i f y o u s a y th e p o i n ts th a t y o u a l r e a d y to ld
m e e a r l ie r o n w h y y o u w e r e d i s a g r e e i n g w i t h A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o a r e
a ls o i n c lu d e d h e r e . Yo u c a n j u s t c o n f ir m t h a t . I f t h e r e a r e t h e r e o t h e r s
20

t h a t y o u d i d n o t m e n t i o n e a r li e r w h ic h a r e i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m ju s t te ll
me those.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S ir - C h a ir, w h a t I m e n ti o n e d

e a r l ie r is i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m h e r e a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g s . L e t m e j u s t g o
t h r o u g h h e r e . A b o u t t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s . A b o u t t h e A c t 7 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Ms W e n tz e l …

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u c a n a s s is t h i m …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w il l a s s i s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it is s o m e t h i n g i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m , b e c a u s e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I - I w il l a s s is t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t l ik e y o u a r e t e ll i n g h i m s o m e th i n g …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h e is n o t i n t h e d o c u m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is h is d o c u m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n h ig h l i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e t h i m t o c o n fir m t h e m a i n p o in ts .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W e ll i f o n e h a s f i r s t y o u d e a l w i t h w h a t is - h e
says in paragraph 2 on page 99.
there.

Yo u c a n - s o j u s t k e e p y o u r f i n g e r

Ye s a t t h e o t h e r o n e a n d t h e n l o o k a t p a g e - p a r a g r a p h 2 o n

page 99.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y p a g e 9 9 ? D id y o u s a y p a g e 9 9 ?
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . P a g e 9 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: Why are we going to page 99 now?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B e c a u s e I j u s t w a n t t o s h o w y o u - C h a ir.

I

w i ll t e l l y o u w h y w e a r e g o i n g t o p a g e 9 9 . Is t h e - t h e d i ffi c u l t th a t t h a t I h a v e n o w a n d p e r h a p s I c a n r e s o lv e t h is o v e r t h e lu n c h b r e a k is
t h a t b e c a u s e w e o n l y o b t a in e d th e c o m p l e t e c o p y o f t h i s d o c u m e n t la t e r

Page 98 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
- e a r ly t h is m o r n i n g .

I w o r k e d o n t h e in c o m p le t e d o c u m e n t t h a t i s a t

page 99.
So all my notes are there.

I t h e n s a i d to y o u w e h a v e

o b t a i n e d t h e s i g n e d c o p y w h ic h w e n o w k n o w is a t p a g e 3 - 0 - 8 , b u t f o r
m e i t m i g h t b e o f a s s is t a n c e i f w e c o u ld s t il l w o r k o n t h e d o c u m e n t a t
page 99, because …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No that …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t i s w h e r e I h a v e my n o t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w i ll b e c o n f u s i n g . O k a y.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f it is o k a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P e r h a p s in t h e lu n c h b r e a k w h a t I w il l d o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . U s e th e l u n c h b r e a k s o th a t y o u u s e th e c o r r e c t
document.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M a y b e w e s h o u ld a d j o u r n n o w, b e c a u s e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P e r h a p s w e c o u l d a d jo u r n a n d t h a t c a n a s s is t
me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w e d o n o t - y o u d o n o t s k i p t o a n o t h e r is s u e

20

b e f o r e w e d e a l w it h t h is o n e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w o u l d a p p r e c ia t e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W e a r e g o i n g t o t a k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t

a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t 2 o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .

Page 99 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s M s W e n tz e l , a r e y o u r e a d y ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

C h a ir b e f o r e w e c o n t in u e

w i t h th e e v i d e n c e o f C o lo n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g , i f y o u d o n ’ t m in d a n
is s u e h a s b e e n b r o u g h t t o m y a t t e n ti o n a n d I fe e l t h a t I s h o u l d a d d r e s s
it . W h a t h a s tr a n s p ir e d is t h a t a t 11 o ’c l o c k t o d a y a l e t te r w a s
d is c o v e r e d b y m e m b e r s a t t h e S e c r e ta r i a t o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n , i t i s
d a t e d y e s t e r d a y a n d a p p a r e n tly w a s s e n t , I t h i n , la t e y e s t e r d a y
10

a ft e r n o o n b u t th e r e ’s a n e n o r m o u s a m o u n t o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a s I
u n d e r s t a n d , c o m i n g i n t o t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d i t w a s o n l y p ic k e d u p a t
11 o ’c l o c k to d a y.

W h a t t h e l e tt e r - i t ’s a l e t te r fr o m M r P a n d a y ’s

a tt o r n e y, K e r s h n i e G o v e n d e r a n d w h a t t h e c o m p la i n t is , is t h a t t h e R u l e
3 3 n o t ic e w h ic h w a s t i m e o u s l y s e r v e d o n t h e 1 9 t h o f D e c e m b e r
c o n ta in e d th e i n c o r r e c t A n n e x u r e s .
S o w h a t h a p p e n e d is th e A n n e x u r e s t h a t s h o u l d h a v e g o n e t o
M r P a n d a y w e n t t o h is m o t h e r a n d t h e A n n e x u r e t h a t s h o u l d h a v e g o n e
t o h i s m o t h e r w e n t to Mr P a n d a y.

H e d i d – h is a t to r n e y d i d w r i te a

le t t e r to t h e C o m m i s s io n o n t h e 1 9 t h o f D e c e m b e r a s k i n g f o r t h e c o r r e c t
20

A n n e x u r e s , h o w e v e r, a s a c o m e d y o f e r r o r s m i g h t h a v e i t , w h a t
tr a n s p ir e d a t t h e C o m m is s i o n is th a t t h e r e w a s a l a d y a t th e S e c r e ta r i a t
w h o w a s d e a li n g w i th t h e e m a i ls th a t w e r e c o m i n g i n .

That person

w o r k e d u n ti l t h e 2 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r, r e s ig n e d a n d a n e w p e r s o n
c o m m e n c e d d e a li n g w i t h t h e e m a i ls fr o m t h e 2 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r a n d i t
a p p e a r s t h a t , t h a t e m a il o f t h e 1 9 t h o f D e c e m b e r w a s n ’ t p ic k e d u p , i t

Page 100 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
w a s n ’ t r e s p o n d e d to a n d it f e l l t h r o u g h t h e c r a c k s .
W h a t t h e n tr a n s p ir e d is b e c a u s e t h e R u l e 3 3 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n t h e a c ti n g s e c r e ta r y c a m e b a c k s h e w o u l d

h a v e b e e n e x p e c t e d t o s a y t o t h e p e o p l e , b r i n g m e a ll t h e e m a i ls th a t
c a m e i n w h i l e I w a s a w a y a n d t h e n t h a t is w h e n th a t e m a il o f 1 9
D e c e m b e r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p ic k e d u p .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

By t h e r ig h t p e r s o n .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Ye s .

I c a n g iv e n o d e f e n c e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t

w h a ts o e v e r I – i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t , t h a t b i t – t h e f a c ts a r e t h a t i t w a s n ’ t
p ic k e d u p b u t C h a ir, w h a t th e n o c c u r r e d is o n t h e 9 t h , b e c a u s e th e R u l e
3 3 n o ti c e s a t t h a t s t a g e i t w a s n ’ t c le a r o n w h a t d a t e t h e p e r s o n s in
r e s p e c t o f w h o m R u le 3 n o ti c e s w e r e s e r v e d w e r e g o i n g to t e s t i fy. O n
t h e 9 t h o f J a n u a r y a n o ti c e w a s s e n t o u t s a y i n g t h a t C o l o n e l v a n
L o g g e r e n b e r g w o u l d b e t e s t i fy i n g a n d i t w a s a n o ti c e s e n t to M r P a n d a y
in r e s p e c t o f Mr v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g a n d a ls o i n r e s p e c t o f M r W h i t e .
T h e r e h a s b e e n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h t h e a t to r n e y a n d t h e s e c r e t a r i a t i n
r e s p e c t o f th e n o tic e o f M r W h it e a n d a t n o s t a g e , a t th a t p o i n t w a s i t
a s k e d , b u t y o u h a v e n ’ t r e s p o n d e d a n d w e ’ r e s t il l w a i ti n g f o r s o m e th i n g

20

in r e s p e c t o f Mr v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g a n d w it h r e s p e c t , C h a ir, i t a l th o u g h I
b e li e v e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i s t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f th e l e t te r o f y e s t e r d a y ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e l e t t e r … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

W h a t d o t h e y s u g g e s t s h o u ld b e d o n e ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e l e t te r s a y s y o u m u s t d r a w,

Page 101 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
“ I a m p r e j u d ic e d b y t h e f a c t th a t I h a v e g o t th e w r o n g
A n n e x u r e s , y o u m u s t d r a w t h i s t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f th e C h a ir
b e f o r e t h e p r o c e e d i n g s c o m m e n c e a n d I d e m a n d th a t y o u p u t
t h is

le t t e r

before

the

C h a ir

before

th e

proceedings

commence”,
T h i s w a s n ’t d o n e , a s I s a id b e c a u s e th is le t te r w a s o n l y p ic k e d
u p b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n a t 11 o ’c lo c k . A n d t h e n e n q u i r i e s h a v e t h e n , f o r
t h e l a s t f e w h o u r s , h a v e b e e n c a r r i e d o n a s t o a c t u a l ly w h a t tr a n s p ir e d
a n d o b v i o u s l y n o w I a m d r a w i n g i t to y o u r a t t e n t io n a s i t h a s b e e n
10

d r a w n to m i n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o M r P a n d a y g o t t h e R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e i n r e g a r d t o t h is

w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t a n d g o t t h is w i tn e s s s t a te m e n t o r r e le v a n t p a g e s
t h e r e o f b u t ju s t d id n ’t g e t A n n e x u r e s , is t h a t r i g h t o r g o t – d i d n ’ t g e t t h e
r ig h t A n n e x u r e s ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

U n f o r t u n a t e l y h e g o t th e R u l e 3 . 3 n o t ic e b u t

t h e A n n e x u r e s a ls o , I u n d e r s t a n d , i n c l u d e th e p a s s a g e s fr o m t h e
a ffi d a v i t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d h e g e t s o m e o f th e c o r r e c t A n n e x u r e s a n d d id n ’t

g e t o th e r s o r d i d h e g e t a l l t h e w r o n g A n n e x u r e s ?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I’ m i n s tr u c t e d h e g o t a ll th e w r o n g

A n n e x u r e s , s o h e g o t h is m o t h e r ’s A n n e x u r e s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w d id t h a t h a p p e n , d o y o u k n o w ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e o n ly e x p l a n a t io n t h a t I c a n t h i n k o f is

t h a t t h e – t h e r e w a s a m i s ta k e m a d e b e c a u s e t h e s u r n a m e s w e r e t h e
s a m e a n d w h e n l o o k i n g f o r t h e e m a il a d d r e s s e s w h ic h w o u l d b e

Page 102 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
p r o v i d e d to th e s e c r e t a r i a t to s e n d R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s t h a t , t h a t i s h o w
t h a t e r r o r c o u l d – s o in s t e a d o f s e n d in g t h e o n e s t o t h e m o t h e r t h a t
s h o u l d h a v e g o n e t o t h e m o t h e r, t h e o n e s t h a t w e n t t o M r – M r P a n d a y
g o t h i s m o t h e r a n d h e g o t h i s m o t h e r ’s , h i s m o t h e r g o t h is .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I ’v e p r e v i o u s ly s a i d th a t th e p u t t in g t o g e t h e r o f

A n n e x u r e s a n d th e b u n d l e s – A n n e x u r e s t o a s ta t e m e n t t o e n s u r e t h e
c o r r e c t s e q u e n c e a n d t o e n s u r e t h a t th e c o r r e c t A n n e x u r e s a r e a ll
a tt a c h e d t h a t s h o u l d b e a t t a c h e d is th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f th e e v i d e n c e
le a d e r o r th e m e m b e r o f t h e l e g a l t e a m w h o is r e s p o n s ib l e fo r th a t
10

m a t t e r e v e n i f , l a t e r o n h e o r s h e m i g h t n o t b e th e o n e t o l e a d t h e
e v i d e n c e . A t a n y p a r ti c u la r ti m e , t h e r e ’s s u p p o s e d t o b e a m e m b e r o f
t h e le g a l t e a m w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e m a t t e r … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir, a n d … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

A n d I’ v e s a i d th a t i f a m e m b e r o f t h e le g a l te a m

t a k e s t h e s ta t e m e n t o f t h e w i t n e s s o r d e t e r m i n e s th e r e l e v a n t p o r t io n s
o f th a t s t a te m e n t t h a t s h o u ld b e s e n t t o a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n a n d
id e n t i fi e s a l l th e A n n e x u r e s th a t s h o u ld b e a tt a c h e d , a t ta c h e s t h o s e a n d
t h e n h a n d s o v e r t o t h e r e s t o f h e s t a ff .

I n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e

n o b o d y c a n – w il l m e e t a t t h e a d mi n o ffic e o r t h e s e c r e t a r i a t w il l n e e d
20

t o m a k e u p th e i r mi n d s w h a t A n n e x u r e s g o w it h w h a t , t h e y m u s t ju s t
k n o w w h e n it ’s r e c e i v e d , t h is s t a te m e n t is w it h t h e s e A n n e x u r e s . Th e n
if t h is h a s b e e n h a p p e n in g o r i f h is h a p p e n e d h e r e t h e n t h is w o u l d n ’ t
have happened I would imagine.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir a n d C h a ir I m u s t s a y t h a t I d id n ’t

p r e p a r e th e R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s i n r e s p e c t o f th is w i t n e s s it w a s d o n e b y

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a n o t h e r e v i d e n c e le a d e r b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e I – th e r e i s w h o l e p r o c e s s
t h a t s e e m s t o t a k e p l a c e i n o r d e r f o r – th e y c a ll t h e m e x tr a c ti o n s , w h ic h
m e a n s t a k i n g th e r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h s o u t o f s ta t e m e n ts a n d e x tr a c t in g
t h e c o r r e c t A n n e x u r e s a n d th e l e g a l t e a m is r e q u ir e d t o id e n ti fy
p r e c i s e ly w h ic h A n n e x u r e s g o t o w h ic h w i t n e s s i n p r e p a r i n g th e R u le 3 3
n o t ic e , t h a t is c o r r e c t b u t i t w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t t h e w r o n g A n n e x u r e s d id
in f a c t g o .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a a n d I t h i n k – w e ll m a y b e w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e is

t o m a k e s u r e t h a t b e fo r e R u le 3 3 n o ti c e s is s e n t o ff th e r e l e v a n t
10

m e m b e r o f t h e l e g a l t e a m s e e s f o r t h e l a s t ti m e w h e t h e r e v e r y t h i n g is i n
o r d e r b e f o r e i t ’s s e n t o ff b e c a u s e t h e n t h e y c a n p ic k u p i f th e r e ’s a
p r o b le m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

E v e n th o u g h t h e y m a y h a v e p u t in t h e c o r r e c t

A n n e x u r e s , i f s o m e th in g i n t h e m e a n ti m e h a s h a p p e n e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir I t h i n k a fi n a l c h e c k w i ll p r o b a b l y

b e v e r y a d v a n ta g e o u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , w e l l y o u ’l l n e e d t o b e in v o lv e d i n a s s i s ti n g w i t h

t h e r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e t te r.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I w i ll .

A n d m a k i n g s u r e t h a t th e c o r r e c t A n n e x u r e s a r e s e n t

t o h i m , w i th o u t d e l a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

A p p a r e n t ly I’ m t o l d i t h a s n o w b e e n d o n e .

Ja just check.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d I w il l c h e c k .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e t h e r w h a t h a s b e e n s e n t is t h e r ig h t th i n g .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’l l d o u b le c h e c k .

A n d t h e n y o u w e r e s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th e d a t e

– h i m b e i n g t o l d a b o u t t h e d a t e w h e n th is w i t n e s s w o u l d g i v e e v i d e n c e ,
is t h e r e a n i s s u e t h e r e o r i s t h e r e n o is s u e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th e … [ in t e r v e n e s

T h e r e ’s n o is s u e t h e r e .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e r e i s n ’ t a n i s s u e w i t h r e g a r d t o th a t d a t e ,

t h e is s u e – w h a t w a s r a is e d C h a i r w a s th a t , y o u ’v e s e n t m e a n o ti c e o n
10

t h is d a y b u t d i d n ’ t r e s p o n d t o w h a t I a s k e d y o u o n t h e 1 9 t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t w a s t h e is s u e a b o u t th e d a t e .

N o o k a y, t h a t ’s fi n e g e t in v o lv e d i n t h e p r e p a r a t io n o f

the response…[intervenes].
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

To th a t o k a y a lr i g h t.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s c o n t in u e t h e n .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

I w i ll C h a ir.

C h a i r b e f o r e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t w e w e r e

d e a li n g w i th t h e r e s p o n s e s e n t b y th e w it n e s s t o A d v o c a t e L e ts h o lo ’s
r e a s o n s p r o v i d e d fo r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y d o y o u k n o w w h y t h is B u n d l e i s n o w o p e n e d

o n a p a g e t h a t h a s g o t a j u d g e m e n t , p a g e 2 7 5 , th a t ’s n o t t h e p a g e I h a d
o p e n e d w h e n I l e f t h e r e , d i d a n y b o d y to u c h h e r e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

No.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u l d n ’ t k n o w I g u e s s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I c e r t a i n l y d id n ’t .

O k a y, w e l l t h a t ’s fi n e , th e s e c u r i ty p e o p l e w i ll te ll

m e , o k a y a lr ig h t l e t’s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u , w e w e r e d e a l in g w i t h t h e

r e s p o n s e s a n d d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t I r e a d
t h r o u g h th o s e r e s p o n s e s a n d I d o n ’t th i n k I n e e d t o c a n v a s a n y th i n g
p a r t ic u l a r i n d e t a i l w i th y o u b e c a u s e a l a r g e p a r t o f i t h a s n o w b e e n
d e a lt w i t h b y th e w i t n e s s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a t ’s fi n e .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e r e is o n e a s p e c t th a t I t h o u g h t , p e r h a p s , I

s h o u l d d e a l w i t h a n d t h a t i s t h is . I t i s t h e s u b m is s i o n m a d e a t th e e n d
b y A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo , i t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 1 0 3 a n d i t s p a r a g r a p h s e v e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Paragraph – page?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

103 paragraph seven.

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e r e i t i s s a i d ,

“ I t is s u b m i tt e d w i t h r e s p e c t t h a t t h e i s s u e s u r r o u n d in g t h e
t a p p i n g o f t h e p h o n e s is in e x tr ic a b ly l in k e d to th e m a n n e r in
20

w h ic h t h e e v id e n c e w a s o b ta in e d in th is m a t t e r, t h a t t h e
e v i d e n c e a s i t s t a n d s a t th is p o i n t is ir r e d e e m a b l e s t a i n e d .
To t a k e t h is c a s e t o C o u r t u n d e r t h e s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s w o u l d
m e a n , t h a t I, a s th e p r o s e c u to r w il l h a v e t o tu r n a b l i n d e y e t o
t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e e v i d e n c e h a d b e e n o b ta i n e d a n d
s u b j e c t th e j u d i c i a l p r o c e s s i n m o r a l d e fi le m e n t , s o m e t h i n g

Page 106 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
I’ m n o t p r e p a r e d t o d o ” ,
A n d h e t h e n r e fe r s t o th e c a s e s a n d in p a r a g r a p h 7 .4
concludes,
“ I a m n o t p r e p a r e d , a s a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f t h e S t a t e t o g o t o
C o u r t w i th d ir ty h a n d s , I d o n o t w a n t t o b e s e e n t o b e
c o n d o n i n g i m p r o p e r i n v e s ti g a tiv e te c h n iq u e s b y th e p o lic e ” .
C h a ir i f I m ig h t t h e n j u s t g o to t h e w it n e s s e s ’ r e s p o n s e t o th is
a n d t h a t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e 3 1 4 C h a ir a n d i f I m ig h t r e a d i t t o y o u a n d
a s k y o u to c o m m e n t C o l o n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g . In p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 2 t h i s
10

is w h a t y o u s a y,
“Once

again

th e

evidence

has

been

c o ll e c t e d

in

a

p r o f e s s i o n a l m a n n e r i n t e r m s o f th e C r i m i n a l Pr o c e d u r e Ac t ,
t h e r e i s a b s o l u t e ly n o e v i d e n c e t o e v e n s u g g e s t t h a t t h e b i ll o r
r ig h ts a n d t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n h a s b e e n v i o la t e d . W e a r e o f
opinion

that

Advocate

L e ts h o l o ’s

fi n d i n g

is

the
based

on

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t is n o t a t h is d is p o s a l a n d w h i c h w a s n o t
c o n ta in e d

in

the

docket.

The

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

e x c e p ti o n

to

the

f a c t th a t a d v o c a t e

Letsholo

team
is

take

making

s e r io u s a l le g a ti o n s a g a i n s t t h e i n t e g r i t y o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n
20

t e a m , i n th a t t h e y h a v e o b ta in e d e v i d e n c e i m p r o p e r, i ll e g a lly
w h ic h is a v i o l a ti o n o f a c o n s t it u ti o n . T h e in v e s ti g a t io n te a m
d e n ie s th is a c c u s a t i o n s tr o n g l y, th e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f t h e
D ir e c t o r a te o f P r i o r i t y C r i m e I n v e s t ig a ti o n , S A P S t a k e t h e s e
a l le g a ti o n s a g a in s t i t s m e m b e r s i n a v e r y s e r io u s l ig h t . W h e n
it s

members

are

accused

of

o b ta in i n g

Page 107 of 162

evidence

in

an

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
i m p r o p e r o r il le g a l m a n n e r w h ic h v i o l a t e s t h e A c t , b il l o f
r ig h ts o r th e c o n s ti t u ti o n ” .
And then in paragraph 4.13,
“ T h e r e i s a b s o lu t e l y n o l in k s u r r o u n d in g t h e ta p p i n g o f th e
p h o n e s a n d t h e e v id e n c e p r o d u c e d to A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o .
A c c o r d i n g to th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n te a m h e is n o t e v e n c o n c e r n e d
a b o u t th e f a c ts p u t b e fo r e h i m b u t h e w o u l d r a th e r d ir e c t t h e
a tt e n ti o n t o o th e r s o - c a ll e d fa c t o r s w h ic h h e c l a i ms a r e
in fl u e n c i n g t h e c a s e o f w h i c h h e h a s n o s i g h t, i n s ig h t o r
10

k n o w l e d g e o f . T h e i m p r e s s i o n is c r e a t e d b y A d v o c a t e
L e t s h o l o th a t t h e A c t 7 0 a n d t h e e v i d e n c e p r o d u c e d i s li n k e d .
B a s e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o a n d s t il l
s u g g e s t th a t t h e e v i d e n c e is i r r e d e e m a b ly ta in t e d is a n
ir r e s p o n s ib l e s ta t e m e n t b a s e d o n n o fa c ts a t a ll ” .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u c o n fi r m t h a t , th a t r e m a i n s y o u r p o s i ti o n ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

J a a n d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w, d i d h e e v e r b e c o m e

a w a r e o f y o u r r e s p o n s e t o h is m e m o ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I d o n ’t k n o w C h a ir i t m i g h t b e v i a

o u r h e a d o ffi c e a n d t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g h e a d o ffic e , I d o n ’ t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w a s – s i n c e t h e n h a s h e e v e r, a s fa r a s y o u

k n o w, s a i d w h a t f a c ts o r w h a t e v i d e n c e e m a n a t e d fr o m th e m o n i to r i n g
o f t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s o f Mr P a n d a y c o u l d b e f o u n d i n t h e
e v i d e n c e o f th e c a s e th a t y o u p r e s e n t e d b e fo r e m e ?

Page 108 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir n o t u p u n ti l t h i s d a y.

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

H e ’s m e n ti o n e d a n y t h i n g th a t c a n p r o v e o r

s h o w t h a t e v id e n c e f r o m t h e Ac t 7 0 w a s u s e d in [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n o n p a g e 3 1 6 p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 6 in

response to the last paragraph it is said,
“ T h e c o n te n ts a r e n o t e d , in li g h t o f a l l t h e e x p l a n a ti o n s i n t h e
p a r a g r a p h a b o v e , th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n t e a m h a s s p e n t m a n y a n
10

h o u r a n d e x p e n s e s t o d a t e t o g a t h e r e v i d e n c e a n d to p r o d u c e
t h a t to a p r o s e c u t o r f o r p o s i tiv e d e c is i o n .

T h e in v e s t i g a t io n

t e a m is ti ll o f th e o p i n io n t h a t t h e r e is a p r i m a f a c i e c a s e a n d
a s in f o r m e d b y t h e p r o s e c u t o r p e r s o n a ll y, t h a t t h e e v id e n c e
produced was good.
p r o s e c u t o r ’s

T h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n te a m d i s a g r e e s t o t h e

d e c is io n

as

he

has

b a s e d h is

decision

on

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e d e fe n c e a n d w h ic h w e a r e
o f t h e o p i n i o n w a s n e v e r p r o p e r ly in v e s t ig a t e d a n d t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n

team

was

never

consulted

or

shown

th e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o g iv e a c o m m e n t ” .
20

Yo u a g r e e w i th t h a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I a g r e e w i th t h a t C h a i r a n d I c a n

ju s t fu r t h e r s t a t e th a t e v e r y t h in g i n 7 8 1 i s d o n e a c c o r d i n g o f th e l a w,
e v e r y s in g l e th i n g .

To c o r r o b o r a te w h a t I’ m s a y i n g is t h a t , a f te r t h e

d o c k e t h a s b e e n h a n d e d o v e r t o I P I D t h e ir a d v o c a te s c a m e a n d
in t e r v ie w e d u s a n d s a w u s w i t h M r M c Br i d e . A t n o s t a g e , w h a ts o e v e r

Page 109 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
d i d t h e y p o i n t t o u s , t h is i s i n c o r r e c t o r t h is w a s o b t a i n e d i ll e g a ll y o r
a n y th in g li k e th a t . Ev e n a f te r th a t , A d v o c a te G e r r i e N e l , t h e c a s e w a s
g iv e n t o h i m a t s o m e s ta g e , h e c a m e a n d i n te r v i e w e d u s i n D u r b a n a n d
h e a g r e e d w i th u s 2 0 0 % , t h e r e i s n o e v i d e n c e t h a t s o m e t h i n g w a s u s e d
in [ i n d is ti n c t ] i n 7 8 1 a n d h e s t il l m a i n ta in e d t h a t i t w a s a g o o d c a s e a n d
h e w a s g o i n g t o t a k e it fu r t h e r. A t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y i t w a s t a k e n a w a y
fr o m h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

P r i o r t o t h is c a s e , 7 8 1 , h a d y o u b e e n i n v o l v e d in a n y

in v e s t i g a t io n s w h e r e y o u t o o k th e d o c k e t t o – o r t h e d o c k e t w a s t a k e n
10

to this prosecutor?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o C h a ir t h i s w a s t h e fi r s t t i m e I d e a l t w i t h

him.
CHAIRPERSON:

t h is w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir, t h is is t h e fir s t ti m e I

d e a lt w i t h h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e n i f w e c a n g o b a c k t o y o u r s t a te m e n t ,

p a g e 1 3 a n d I ’ m d e a li n g n o w w i th p a r a g r a p h 11 a n d w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h
t h e fa c t th a t y o u r e p o r t e d th e w i th d r a w a l o f t h e c a s e t o D r a m a t a n d t h e
20

m e m o r a n d u m w e ’v e b e e n d e a li n g w i t h w a s p r e p a r e d b y y o u , w a s th a t
o n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s o f M r D r a m a t , t o r e s p o n d t o t h e a ll e g a ti o n s o f
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

N o w c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir, h o w d i d

B r i g a d ie r v a n G r a a n b e c o m e in v o lv e d , y o u r e fe r t o i t i n p a r a g r a p h

Page 110 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
11 . 11 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

S ir w h e n w e – w h e n G e n e r a l

D r a m a t r e c e iv e d o u r r e s p o n s e s to A d v o c a te L e t s h o l o ’s l e t te r h e t h e n
a p p o i n t e d Br ig a d i e r v a n G r a a n w h o ’s i n o u r l e g a l s e c t i o n h e a d o ffic e to
c o m e d o w n a n d t o c o m e a n d lo o k a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h e d o c k e t
that we’ve got. Brigadier van Graan did come down, I met him and he
w e n t t h r o u g h th e d o c k e t a n d h e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e e v i d e n c e th a t w e
p r e s e n t e d t o h i m a n d h e w a s h a p p y w i t h e v e r y th i n g t h a t h e s a w.

He

a g r e e d t h a t, y o u k n o w, th e r e ’s a c a s e h e r e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y I m a y h a v e m is s e d w h e r e y o u a r e M s

W e n tz e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a r a g r a p h 11 p o i n t ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s .

I s t h a t s til l u n d e r t h e c a s e 7 8 1 ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

11 .

11 .11 ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir i t s p a g e 1 3 p a r a g r a p h 11 . 1 .

Ye s .

O h o k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w h a t d i d G e n e r a l D r a m a t d o a f te r t h a t?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r G e n e r a l D r a m a t th e n w r o te

t o A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i a n d t h e n h e d is a g r e e d w i t h t h e d e c is i o n o f
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o lo a n d h e a s k e d A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n e s h e a g r e e s w i t h
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ’s f i n d in g s o n t h e d o c k e t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

J u s t s to p , s o f o r c o m p le t e n e s s i f w e h a v e a

Page 111 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
lo o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 11 6 is t h i s t h e r e s p o n s e s e n t b y G e n e r a l
D r a m a t t o A d v o c a te Vi m b a n i ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h i s is t h e

document.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t p a g e is t h a t M s W e n t z e l , a g a i n ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

11 6 ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

I s t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t w e w e r e o n a l i tt l e e a r l i e r ?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s p a g e 11 6 t o 11 7 .

No.

O h t h a t ’s a d i ff e r e n t o n e , y e s o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t, w h a t h a s t r a n s p ir e d is

t h a t A d v o c a t e L e ts h o lo

p r o v i d e s r e a s o n s f o r is

d e c is io n n o t t o

p r o s e c u t e t h e r e is – D r a m a t a s k s t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s to r e s p o n d , t h e y d o
r e s p o n d , h e t h e n g o e s t o a le g a l p e r s o n i n t h e p o lic e a n d s a y s p le a s e
h a v e a lo o k a t w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g , h e ’s t o l d t h e r e is a g o o d c a s e a n d h e
t h e n w r i t e s t o A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i , a n d y o u ’ ll r e m e m b e r t h i s is t h e o t h e r
A d v o c a t e w h o w a s in v o lv e d w h o – a n d s a y s ,
“are
20

you

a ls o

in

agreement

that

this

m a t te r

shouldn’t

c o n ti n u e ” ,
A n d d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t, a t p a r a g r a p h s 11 6 t o 11 7 th e r e a s o n s
p r o v i d e d a r e i n l in e w i t h w h a t y o u h a d s a i d i n y o u r r e p r e s e n ta t io n s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

J a m e n ti o n t w o o r t h r e e i m p o r t a n t o n e s a n d t h e n w e

c a n m o v e o n , i n th is d o c u m e n t fr o m M r D r a m a t .

Page 112 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

In – I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t h e e s s e n ti a l ly s a y s is

t h a t , i n p a r a g r a p h th r e e th a t ,
“ I w is h to p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t t h e a b o v e a ll e g a t io n s a r e
c a t e g o r ic a l ly

denied,

none

of

the

evidence

in

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n p e r t a in in g t o D u r b a n C a s e 7 8 1 w a s o b t a in e d b y
m e a n s o f i n t e r c e p t i o n a n d t h e r e ’s n o s u c h e v i d e n c e c o n ta i n e d
in t h e d o c k e t .
c o m p r is e s

T h e e v i d e n c e i n D u r b a n C e n tr a l C a s e 7 8 1

s tr a i g h t f o r w a r d

documentary

evidence

d u r i n g l a w f u l s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e o p e r a t io n s .
10

ceased

A ff i d a v i ts o f

w i t n e s s e s a n d a c o m p r e h e n s i v e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t c o m p i l e d b y
P r ic e

Wa t e r h o u s e

Coopers.

S in c e

this

was

an

o r d in a r y

c o m m e r c ia l c r i m e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h e D i r e c t o r a t e t h e r e w a s
no

need

for

the

D ir e c t o r a te

to

r e ly

on

i n t e r c e p t io n

as

p r o v i d e d f o r i n th e r e g u la t io n o f in t e r c e p t io n a n d p r o v is io n o f
c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e la t e d i n fo r m a t i o n A c t.
I’ ll p a u s e t h e r e , th a t i ts e lf is a c o r r e c t – w a s w h a t w a s s a id .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t t h a t w a s a ls o s a i d b y A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m t h e o u t s e t .

That is correct.

Ye s a n d I s e e t h a t i n t h e – t h a t l e t t e r Mr D r a m a t a ls o

p o i n t s o u t w h a t , I b e l i e v e , y o u w i ll s a y is t h e c o r r e c t p o s it i o n , n a m e ly
t h a t i n t e r c e p t i o n r e l a t e d t o t h e d e a th t h r e a t s a n d r e a lly w a s n o t i n
r e s p e c t o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n i n 7 8 1 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t ’s p o i n t e d o u t .

Page 113 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

J a I t h i n k th a t ’s e n o u g h w e c a n m o v e o n ja .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u . D id A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i r e s p o n d t o

t h is le t t e r fr o m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Chair as far as I know she did not

r e s p o n d t o th is l e t t e r. W h a t s h e d id , s h e a c t u a ll y fo r w a r d e d t h i s l e t te r
on to Advocate Lawrence Mrwebi, he was the…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Advocate?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

L a w r e n c e Mr w e b i .

J a o k a y.

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w a s , a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e , I

t h i n k th e N a t io n a l H e a d o f t h i s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

O f S p e c i a l C r i m e C o m m e r c ia l C o u r ts j a .

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s a n d w e w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e r e ’s

o n ly o n e - l in e r e p l y fr o m h i m a n d i s r e p ly w a s t h a t t h e r e ’s n o t h in g t o
s t a te a t t h is s t a g e , th a t ’s a ll n o t h in g e ls e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e i s n o th i n g ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e h a d n o t h in g to s ta t e a t t h i s

stage.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O h b u t w e d o n ’ t h a v e t h a t e m a il o r d o c u m e n t h e r e ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o t h a t w il l b e – w e d o n ’ t h a v e

t h a t b u t t h a t w i ll b e o n t h e ir fi l e s i n h e a d o ffi c e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o h e s a i d t h e r e ’s n o th in g to s t a t e ?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

A t h is s t a g e y e s .

Oh.

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C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s a ll .

J a a n d y o u s a w t h a t?

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e s a w t h a t .

J a , s o h e d i d n o t r e s p o n d t o th is s u b s t a n t iv e

a r g u m e n t p u t f o r w a r d b y M r D r a m a t , t o s a y th is d e c i s i o n n o t t o
prosecute, has no proper grounds?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e n if I m i g h t r e fe r y o u t o t h e d o c u m e n t o n

p a g e 11 9 a n d i t ’s a m e m o r a n d u m p r e p a r e d b y A d v o c a t e N o k o d a te d t h e
2 1 s t o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 t o t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o lic e In v e s t i g a t in g O ffi c e r s ,
h a v e y o u s e e n t h is m e m o r a n d u m ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir I h a v e s e e n th is

memorandum.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is t h a t i t i s s t a t e d i n t h e
o p e n i n g p a r a g r a p h t h a t a n d w e w il l r e c a l l y o u r – t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u
g a v e a n d r e m e m b e r th e l e t te r w h e r e y o u – w h ic h y o u s a i d w a s p r o v id e d
t o A d v o c a te – t h e A d v o c a te a t c o u r t f o r t h e h e a r i n g o f o n e o f th e c a s e s
w h ic h s a i d :
20

“ I b e li e v e i n th e i n t e r e s t o f j u s t ic e . ”
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s , y e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
“ S o m e t h i n g h a s c o m e to m y a t t e n t io n a n d i n th e
in t e r e s t o f j u s t ic e t h e m a t t e r m u s t b e p r o v i s i o n a ll y
withdrawn.”

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s th a t I …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s I r e c a l l t h a t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o h e is n o w r e fe r r i n g t o t h a t in t h e f ir s t

p a r a g r a p h a n d h e s a id :
“ I h a d p r e v i o u s l y p r o v i s i o n a lly w i t h d r a w n t h is m a t t e r o n t h e b a s i s th a t
t h e r e w e r e c o n s i d e r a t i o n s o f ju s tic e t h a t I h a d t o l o o k in t o in o r d e r t o
a r r iv e a t a p r o p e r d e c i s i o n th a t is i n t h e in t e r e s t o f ju s t ic e . T h e s e h a v e
b e e n s o l o o k e d in t o a n d m y d e c is i o n is in d i c a t e d h e r e u n d e r w i th
10

s u b s t a n t ia t io n . ”
N o w w h a t is h e r e f e r r in g to ?

Is it t h e r e p r e s e n t – w e r e t h e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s m a d e p r i o r t o t h e m a tt e r b e i n g w it h d r a w n o r n o t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir w e w o u ld – I w o u ld n o t k n o w
t h a t b e c a u s e w e r e c e iv e d n o r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a s fa r a s I k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o w b y t h e w a y th e c a s e w h e r e s h e h a d s a i d

s h o u l d b e w i th d r a w n – t h e c a s e t h a t s h e s a i d s h o u l d b e w i t h d r a w n
b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h e s t i ll n e e d e d t o l o o k i n to .
t h a t 4 6 6 ? W a s th a t c a s e 4 6 6 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, a lr i g h t . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e lo o k e d a t th is l e tt e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir I l o o k e d a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h a t – w h a t w a s s h e s a y in g in t h is le t t e r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir s h e g o e s …

Page 116 of 162

Was

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON: Or memorandum.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S h e g o e s th r o u g h a l l th e c a s e s a n d
tr y i n g t o c o n v i n c e u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e j u s t to g o b a c k 4 6 6 i s t h e c a s h i n t h e b o o t
case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is i t . T h a t i s i t , r i g h t C h a ir t h e
c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t r e la t e s t o C o l o n e l M a d h o e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

Ye s a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s C A S 3 2 8

t h a t i s a p a r t y d o c k e t fr o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e p a r ty d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o – s o s h e w r i t e s t h is l e tt e r t o i n d i c a t e w h a t
s h e h a s fo u n d i n l o o k in g in t o t h e is s u e s t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g t o l o o k in t o
a n d to s a y w h a t s h e – w h a t t h e w a y fo r w a r d w o u l d b e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I n a ll t h e s e d o c k e ts y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w h a t d id s h e s a y t h e w a y f o r w a r d w o u l d b e ?

W h a t w a s t h e c o n c lu s i o n i n t o th o s e is s u e s t h a t s h e h a d w a n t e d t o l o o k
in t o ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r to b e h o n e s t w i t h y o u I d id

n o t p u t m u c h w e i g h t in w h a t s h e s a i d i n t h i s le t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e r e a s o n b e in g is t h a t b e f o r e w e
r e c e i v e d th e s ig n e d m e m o r a n d u m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h is o n e – s p e c i fic a l ly th is o n e .

W e w e r e a t o u r o ffi c e a n d C o lo n e l J o n e s c a m e to th e o ff ic e a n d h e
c a l l e d m y s e l f a n d C o lo n e l G o v e n d e r a n d C o l o n e l H e r b s t a n d h e a s k e d
u s t o c o m e t o h is o ff ic e o r i n t o s o m e o ffic e t h e r e . B u t w e m e t w i th h i m
a n d t h e n h e h a d a d r a f t o f t h i s r e p o r t u n s i g n e d – u n s i g n e d a n d tr y in g t o
c o n v i n c e u s e t o g o t h r o u g h t h is a n d s e e if w e a g r e e w it h th is a n d t o
s e e i f a ll t h e C A S n u m b e r s a r e c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D i d y o u s a y t o s e e i f a ll th e c a s e n u m b e r s a r e
correct?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s t h a t a n d a ls o i f w e a g r e e w i t h
t h is s t u ff – t h e c o n te n t o f t h e – I ju s t – a n d t h e n f u r th e r m o r e h e p l a c e d
h is p h o n e i n t h e c e n tr e o f t h e ta b l e a n d it is n o t h is c o m m o n w a y o f
doing things.

B u t I j u s t a s k e d [ i n d is ti n c t ] w h e r e d i d y o u g e t th is le t t e r

fr o m ? A n d h e s a y s w e ll d o n o t w o r r y a b o u t th a t j u s t r e a d i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h a t in t h e c o n c l u s io n s h e s a y s s h e d e c li n e s to
p r o s e c u t e b o t h C o lo n e l M a d h o e a n d Mr P a n d a y fo r c o r r u p t io n o n – o r
a n y o ff e n c e i n th e 4 6 6 c a s e . S h e s a y s t h i s is d u e t o l a c k o f r e a s o n a b l e
p r o s p e c t s o f a s u c c e s s f u l p r o s e c u ti o n a s e x p l a i n e d a n d s u b s ta n ti a t e d
20

a b o v e . S h e s a y s t h e r e a p p e a r s to b e a g e n d a s a m o n g th e p a r t ie s a n d
s c o r e s to b e s e t tl e d .

U n f o r t u n a t e ly w e a p p e a r to b e u s e d to a s s i s t

w h o e v e r t o s e t t le th o s e s c o r e s a n d p u s h t h o s e a g e n d a s .

We are

e x p e c te d t o a c t i m p a r ti a l ly a n d e th ic a l ly i n t h e e x e c u t io n o f o u r d u ti e s
a s o ffic ia ls o f t h e N PA t h u s m y i n d ic a ti o n – i n d ic a ti o n t h a t w e a r e b e i n g
u s e d i n a m a n n e r th a t fl i e s i n t h e f a c e o f o u r v a l u e s a t t h e [i n d is t in c t ]

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c o d e o f c o n d u c t m u s t b e a v o i d e d a n d n o t b e e n t e r t a i n e d a t a l l. T h a t i s
y o u r c o r r e c t i o n o f w h a t – i s th a t y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n o f w h a t t h e
m e m o r a n d u m is s a y i n g ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir I w a s j u s t b u s y t o t e ll y o u

t h a t C o l o n e l J o n e s c a m e w i t h a d r a f t o f t h i s le t t e r to o u r o ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e it w a s s ig n e d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

And I just wondered how did

C o l o n e l J o n e s g e t t h is d r a ft in t h e f ir s t p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I t is n o t n a tu r a l to g iv e a d r a f t

r e p o r t fr o m th e N PA t o t h e H e a d o f t h e U n it t o s a y a p p r o a c h t h e s e
people.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

And go through them and see if

they agree with that and if the case numbers are right have been – it is
t h e fi r s t t i m e i n th e h is t o r y i n m y p o li c e c a r e e r t h a t t h i s e v e r h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a g a i n C o l o n e l J o n e s w h a t w a s h i s p o s i t io n
20

a g a in ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

He was the head of the ACTT

Durban.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh in Durban?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

A n d ju s t to o k u s a b a c k . T h a t i s

w h y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W e h a d a – I a s k e d h i m w h y h a v e
y o u g o t th is t h i n g – h e s a y s d o n o t w o r r y a b o u t h o w I g o t h o l d o f it j u s t
g o t h r o u g h it a n d – I a c t u a l ly r e f u s e d , I d i d n o t g o th r o u g h i t . W e ju s t
le f t th e m e e t i n g .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h y d i d y o u l e a v e th e m e e ti n g ?

If you

c a n j u s t e x p l a i n t h a t?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B e c a u s e i t i s – fir s t o f a l l i t is

i m p r o p e r. I m e a n – a n d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t y o u j u s t – y o u s a i d e a r li e r t h a t y o u s a y h e
p u t h i s p h o n e i n th e m id d le o f t h e t a b l e a n d t h a t w a s u n u s u a l .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s h e p u t h is p h o n e i n th e m i d d l e

o f t h e ta b l e t r y i n g t o r e c o r d u s . B u t w h e n w e n o t ic e d t h a t a n d h e t o l d
u s w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f h i s v i s i t a s in t h e m e e ti n g y o u k n o w I j u s t s a id ,
lo o k I a c tu a l ly g o t a n n o y e d a n d I g o t c r o s s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I s a id I a m n o t i n te r e s te d . I a m n o t
in t e r e s te d i n r e a d in g i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A ll o f u s a n d w e ju s t le f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e n a ft e r w a r d s i t c a m e , s i g n e d

a n d h e s a i d ja b u t t h is – n o b u t – q u e s ti o n s a r e a s k e d h o w d id – h o w
d i d J o n e s g e t t h i s l e tt e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W h y – w h o i n s tr u c t e d h i m t o c o m e
to us?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t is u n h e a r d o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u s a id e a r l i e r in y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u d i d
n o t in v o lv e J o n e s in t h is in v e s ti g a t i o n . W h y w a s th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir I w a s n o t – I d i d n o t tr u s t h i m
t o p u t i t b l u n t ly. T h a t is w h y w e n e v e r r e p o r t e d t h a t m a t t e r – r e p o r t e d
the cases to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w i f I c a n j u s t s h o w y o u w h a t is s a i d –

t h e r e a r e j u s t o n e o r t w o t h i n g s I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o – t o c o m m e n t o n a n d
if w e c a n l o o k a t p a g e 1 2 0 - p a r a g r a p h 2 . 3 p l e a s e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 2 .2 ?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s . 2 . 3 a n d t h a t d e a l s w i t h c a s e 7 8 1 i n

r e s p e c t o f w h ic h y o u w e r e t h e l e a d i n v e s t i g a t o r.
“Case

781

Commercial

was

dealt

Crime

Unit

w i th

by

SCCU

the
in

S p e c ia li s e d
Durban

and

d is p o s e d o f r e c e n t ly w i t h a d e c is io n n o t t o p r o s e c u t e
anyone as there was no evidence to prosecute any

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
p e r s o n w i th a n y o ffe n c e . It h a s b e e n r e v e a l e d b y t h e
SCCU that the SAPS members who were charged
w i t h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o f th e 7 8 1 c a s e w a s g u n n i n g
f o r th e p r o s e c u ti o n o f a s p e c if ic p e r s o n L i e u t e n a n t
General

Mgubeni

and

Mr

Panday

and

Colonel

M a d h o e w e r e b e in g p r e s s u r i s e d to f a ls e l y i m p l ic a t e
h e r i n t h e c o m m i s s i o n o f c r i m i n a l o ffe n c e s w i t h t h e
p r o m is e t h a t t h e y w il l b e e x o n e r a te d i n 7 8 1 .

When

t h e S A P S i n v e s ti g a t o r s r e a lis e d th a t t h e P C c a n n o t
10

b e c h a r g e d in t h i s c a s e 7 8 1 s i m p ly b e c a u s e th e r e i s
n o e v id e n c e a g a i n s t h e r o n e i n v e s t ig a t in g o ff ic e r
r e p o r t e d ly s a i d t h a t th e S C C U Pr o s e c u t o r m a y a s
w e ll j u s t c l o s e th e 7 8 1 c a s e . I t a p p e a r s M r P a n d a y
a n d C o lo n e l M a d h o e fe a tu r e d n o w h e r e i n t h e 7 8 1
t h e n a s th e fo c u s w a s o n th e P C . O n e t h e n m a y a s k
a q u e s t i o n , w h y w a s C o l o n e l M a d h o e a r r e s t e d in th e
4 6 6 c a s e ? W a s t h i s a la w f u l ly j u s ti f ie d a r r e s t o r w a s
it a w a y t o p r e s s u r is e h i m t o i m p li c a t e t h e P C a s h e
C o l o n e l M a d h o e e v e n m e n ti o n s i n h is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n

20

t h a t h e w a s b e i n g r e g u l a r ly i n te r v i e w e d b y th e I O ’s
s o h e f a ls e ly i m p lic a t e th e P C w h i c h is fl a t – w h i c h
h e f la t ly r e f u s e d . ”
C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir I d i d n o t h a v e w o r d s t o

d e s c r ib e w h e n I r e a d t h i s p a r a g r a p h t o b e h o n e s t w it h y o u .

Page 122 of 162

She had

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a c c e s s t o t h e d o c k e ts , a ll o f t h e d o c k e ts . A n d i f s h e h a d a c c e s s t o a ll
o f t h e d o c k e t s a n d s h e l o o k e d a t a ll o f t h e d o c k e t s i n – h o w c o u l d s h e
e v e n s a y th a t t h e r e is n o e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t P a n d a y a n d M a d h o e i n 7 8 1 ?
T h e a ffi d a v i t s a r e t h e r e .

T h e f o r e n s i c r e p o r t is t h e r e .

E v e r y th i n g i s

t h e r e s o t o m a k e t h is a ll e g a ti o n I c a n n o t a d d u p h e r e h o w s h e c a m e t o
t h is c o n c l u s i o n .

A n d t h e P C a s w e ll . I m e a n t h e e v i d e n c e is t h e r e –

e v e r y t h i n g i s th e r e .

T h e r e p o r ts a r e t h e r e .

T h e a ff i d a v i ts a r e t h e r e .

B u t w h a t w e l a te r d is c o v e r e d i s th a t t h e P C ’s c o n t r a c t w a s r u n n i n g o u t
a n d th e C o m m i s s io n e r a t t h e t i m e w a s R i a B e e t g e a n d i t i s o b v io u s th a t
10

s h e w a s a w a r e o f t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n a n d a ll t h e o t h e r i n v e s ti g a t i o n s .
S h e n e e d e d s o m e t h in g f r o m [ in d is ti n c t ] t o e x o n e r a te t h e P C a n d
a n y b o d y e l s e t o r e n e w t h e P C ’s c o n tr a c t f o r a n o th e r fi v e y e a r s .
t h a t w a s th e p u r p o s e o f th is l e t t e r.

W h y e ls e w o u ld i t b e ?

And

I t is n o t

n o r m a l t h a t e v e r y p r o v in c i a l D P P w r it e s t o t h e p o lic e i n r e s p e c t o f
s e v e n o r e i g h t c a s e o r – y o u k n o w to o u r p o lic e h e a d q u a r t e r s – h e a d
o ffic e a n d s p e c i fic a lly m e n t io n i n g a l l t h e s e c a s e s , m e n ti o n i n g t h e P C .
T h e r e i s n o c a s e s a g a i n s t a n y b o d y.

T h a t th is w a s p u r e ly d o n e

r e q u e s t e d fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s o t h a t s h e c o u l d h a v e
s o m e t h i n g i n h e r f il e to s a y, a l l e g a ti o n s h a v e b e e n m a d e .
20

I have got

t h is A d v o c a t e N o k o s h e is s a ti s f i e d t h e r e is n o a l l e – t h e r e is n o b a s is
o f a n y a ll e g a ti o n s in a n y o f th e s e c a s e s a g a i n s t a n y o f t h e s e m e n s o I
a m g o i n g to e x te n d h e r c o n tr a c t f o r a n o t h e r fi v e y e a r s w i t h t h e p o l ic e
force.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w a s t h e c o n t r a c t r e n e w e d f o r th e P C ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s i t w a s C h a ir i t w a s r e n e w e d .

Page 123 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And then if we may continue on paragraph

2 .4 . It s a y s …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I a m s o r r y w h a t p a g e is t h a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Oh sorry page 120 the same page we were

on.
“ T h e S C C U r e v e a l e d t h e s c h e m i n g a n d i n te r c e p ti n g
o f p h o n e c a ll s o f i n t e r a l ia M r P a n d a y w i t h a m o ti v e
a n d a g e n d a t o f a l s e ly i m p l ic a te c e r ta in p e o p l e . T h e y
a l le g e d ly e v e n w e n t f u r th e r t o e v e n b o a s t t o M r
10

P a n d a y t e l li n g h i m t h a t t h e y k n o w w h a t h is d e fe n c e
in 7 8 1 w i ll b e a s t h e y h e a r d h is d is c u s s i o n s w i th h is
le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e th r o u g h t h e in t e r c e p ti v e c a l ls . ”
W h i c h is w h a t w e h a v e s a id w e h a v e s e e n h e r e . A n d t h e n i t s a id in 2 .5 .
“ M r P a n d a y w a s e v e n p r o m is e d b y S A P S m e m b e r s i n
t h e 7 8 1 c a s e t h a t i f h e f a l s e ly i m p l ic a te s t h e P C t h e y
w o u ld g e t r id o f t h e 4 6 6 c a s e .

I t w a s f u r th e r

e x p l a i n e d t o Mr P a n d a y t h a t t h e b e n e fi t o f t h i s
s o u g h t i n c r i m in a ti o n o f t h e P C f o r th e m w i ll b e t h a t
t h e P C w il l b e f o r c e d t o r e s i g n a n d t h e n M a j o r
20

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w i ll b e c o m e th e n e x t K w a Zu l u N a t a l
PC.

F u r t h e r M a jo r G e n e r a l D in a M o o d l e y w o u l d

r e m a in in c o n tr o l o f t h e S e c r e t F u n d . ”
C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir t h i s is a b s o l u t e ly n o n s e n s e ,

r u b b is h t o p u t i t t h a t w a y i n a s tr o n g e r m a n n e r. T h e r e is n o w a y t h a t

Page 124 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
[i n d is t in c t] a n y o n e o f u s t o a ll e g e d ly s t a te w h a t s h e w r o t e i n th is
p a r a g r a p h h e r e . A n d t h e r e is n o w a y t h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a n t e d to
become the PC.

Th e r e is n o w a y t h a t G e n e a r l B o o y s e n c o u l d g e t

a c c e s s to t h e f u n d s , t o t h e s e c r e t f u n d s . I t i s o n ly C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e .
They have got a secret fund.

Th e y a r e a d i ffe r e n t d iv i s i o n fr o m u s .

T h e y a r e n o t w i t h i n t h e H a w k s . T h e y a r e i n a d i ffe r e n t – i n a c o m p l e te ly
d i ff e r e n t d iv is i o n . S o h e c o u ld n o t p u t h is h a n d s – g e t h i s h a n d s o n t h e
s e c r e t f u n d . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e – h o w s h e g o t t h is ? W h a t w a s p u t
in fr o n t o f h e r t o c o m e t o a c o n c l u s i o n l ik e t h i s o r i s i t t h u m b s u c k in g ?
10

T h i s is th e o n ly w a y I c a n s e e i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t t h a t th e a p p o in t m e n t o f M s –

N g o b e n i t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r a s P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f
S A P S i n K Z N w o u ld h a v e b e e n s e e n a s v e r y g o o d s t e p i n te r ms o f
tr a n s fo r m a t i o n , g e n d e r tr a n s f o r m a ti o n i n t h e w h o le c o u n tr y a n d w i th i n
S A P S a s a w h o l e . D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t is h o w i t w a s s e e n w h e n
t h e a p p o in t m e n t w a s m a d e o r i s th a t s o m e t h i n g y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e
n o t ic e d
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir I h a v e – I a m h o n e s t w i th y o u
I d o n o t h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f th a t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I c a n n o t a c tu a lly c o m m e n t o n

a n y th in g o n t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r a t t h a t
ti m e t h e r e w e r e a n y o t h e r f e m a le P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s i n th e
w h o le c o u n t r y u n d e r S A P S ?

Page 125 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Chair I could not – I could not

answer you on that I have got no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I w o u l d n o t k n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g t o w h a t e x te n t it w o u l d b e e n

h a v e – i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n e a s y th i n g in t h e c o n t e x t o f g e n d e r
tr a n s fo r m a t i o n w h i c h t h e w h o le p u b l ic s e r v ic e s u b s c r ib e s t o t h a t h a v in g
f o u n d a f e m a l e t o p u t i n a p o s it i o n s u c h a s Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r
t h a t i f s h e g o e s y o u k n o w th e r e w o u ld – w o u l d g o a n d ta k e a w h it e m a le
10

a n d p u t h i m i n t h a t p o s i ti o n . I a m j u s t n o t s u r e w h a t t h e c h a n c e s a r e .
O b v io u s ly c a n n o t m e a n th a t i t w a s – i t c o u l d n o t b e d o n e b e c a u s e if
t h e r e w e r e n o p e o p le th e n t h e r e w o u l d b e n o p e o p le b u t I w o n d e r w h a t
the chances are that such a thing could have happened.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir I h e a r w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .

B u t u n f o r tu n a te ly t h e s e d e c i s i o n s a r e m a d e i n h e a d o ffi c e a l o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

And us at ground level would not

k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e r e a s o n s fo r a p p o in t in g t h a t

p e r s o n t o t h a t p o s it i o n o r th a t p e r s o n to t h e p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t c o m m e n t j a .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

T h e n i t w a s a ls o s a id i n – o r

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
s u g g e s t e d in p a r a g r a p h 2 . 3 o n p a g e 1 2 0 t h a t C o lo n e l M a d h o e w a s i n a
s e n s e o ff e r e d a d e a l i f h e w o u l d i m p li c a t e t h e P C . W a s – d id a n y o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s e v e r o ff e r a d e a l t o M r P a n d a y o r t o M r M a d h o e t o
i m p l ic a t e t h e P C ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a i r n o d e a ls w e r e o ff e r e d to

a n y b o d y. Th e e v i d e n c e is o v e r w h e l m i n g . T h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n is th e r e .
T h e f o r e n s i c r e p o r t is t h e r e . E v e r y t h i n g i s t h e r e . W h y d o y o u w a n t t o
m a k e a d e a l w i t h th e p e r s o n ?

O k a y i t h a p p e n s i n s o m e o th e r s m a l le r

m a t t e r s th a t y o u k n o w i f y o u n e e d s o m e e v i d e n c e y o u – y o u s h o r t o f
10

e v i d e n c e y o u tr y – o n e t o t e s ti fy a g a in s t t h e o t h e r. B u t in th is m a t te r,
in th is c a s e 7 8 1 y o u n e v e r p r o m is e d a n y b o d y o r r e q u e s te d o r
a p p r o a c h e d a n y o n e t o c o m e w i t h a d e a l t o t e s ti fy a g a in s t a n y b o d y e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u e v e r g e t s h o w n a n y s t a t e m e n t s i g n e d b y
a n y b o d y t o b a c k u p th is a l le g a ti o n o f a p r o m i s e t o h i m t o s a y t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s p r o m i s e d h i m s o m e th i n g ?

W a s th e r e a n a ffi d a v it , a

s t a te m e n t o n w h ic h t h is a ll e g a t io n is b a s e d t o s a y h e r e is t h e s o u r c e
fr o m w h ic h w e g e t t h is i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s p r o m is e d
Colonel Madhoe something?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o t h i n g C h a ir, n o t h in g w h a t s o e v e r.
20

Nothing.
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing was ever shown to you?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o th in g e v e r w a s s h o w n t o u s ,

nothing.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – a n d n o th i n g t h a t w a s w i t h i n t h e d o c k e t

c o n ta in e d th a t?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t i s r ig h t . Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Nothing.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e d e c is i o n w h e t h e r t o p r o s e c u t e o r n o t t o

p r o s e c u t e h a s t o b e m a d e o n t h e b a s is o f t h e in f o r m a t io n in t h e d o c k e t
and not outside the docket?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 2 0 0 % c o r r e c t
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f t h e r e w a s a n y e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s h a d

m a d e s u c h a p r o m is e to C o l o n e l M a d h o e t h e n th e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n
10

a n a ffi d a v it o r s t a t e m e n t s i g n e d b y s o m e b o d y w h o w a s p r e s e n t w h e n
t h a t p r o mi s e w a s m a d e a n d t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e d o c k e t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir.

T h a t – th a t i s th e

correct procedure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e n i f I m i g h t d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n a n d a s k

y o u r c o m m e n t to t h e f u r t h e r s ta t e m e n ts m a d e b y A d v o c a te N o k o . I f w e
can go back to page 121 and paragraph 2.6.
“ T h e 7 8 1 m a t te r w h i c h f o r m s t h e b a s is a n d r e a s o n f o r t h e a ll e g e d
c o r r u p ti o n o f M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n b y C o l o n e l M a d h o e w a s f o u n d to
20

b e n o n - e x is t e n t b y t h e S C C U . ”
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o t h i s is i n c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e c a s e n u m b e r i s –

s h o u l d b e o b v i o u s ly 4 6 6 ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B e c a u s e 7 8 1 is …

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 7 8 1 w a s th e 2 0 1 0 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c u r e m e n t.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d 4 6 6 w a s t h e
c o r r u p ti o n c a s e w i t h C o lo n e l M a d h o e a n d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o n o w I a m g o i n g t o ju s t r e a d t o y o u w h y it
is s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e r e is a l s o n o c a s e i n 4 6 6 a n d a s k f o r y o u r
c o m m e n t . It s a y s :
“ M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n is th e c o m p l a in a n t a n d t h e
o n ly w i t n e s s in t h e 4 6 6 c a s e a g a i n s t Mr P a n d a y a n d
Colonel Madhoe.

10

T h e v e r y M r P a n d a y a n d C o lo n e l

M a d h o e w h o a ll e g e d ly r e fu s e d to p a v e t h e w a y fo r
h i m t o b e c o m e t h e n e x t K w a Zu l u N a t a l P C b y
r e fu s i n g to f a ls e ly i m p lic a t e th e c u r r e n t P r o v i n c ia l
Commissioner General Ngobeni.”
Wa s M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t h e c o m p l a i n a n t?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w a s a w i tn e s s in t h is m a t t e r

C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is th e n s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 .8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. G o i n g b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 2 . 7 . I t s a y s :
20

“ T h e v e r y M r P a n d a y a n d C o lo n e l M a d h o e w h o
a l le g e d ly r e f u s e d t o p a v e th e w a y fo r h i m t o b e c o m e
t h e n e x t K Z N S A P S P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r b y
r e fu s i n g to f a ls e ly i m p lic a t e th e c u r r e n t P r o v i n c ia l
General Ngobeni.”
N o w th e s u g g e s ti o n h e r e is t h a t M r P a n d a y a n d C o l o n e l M a d h o e h a d

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
b e e n a s k e d t o i m p l ic a t e t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r a n d t h e y r e f u s e d .
A n d I t a k e i t t h a t m a y b e t h e y t h i n k t h e s u g g e s t io n is th a t G e n e r a l
Booysen asked them to do that or somebody asked them on behalf of …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
CHAIRPERSON: General Booysen.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o – C h a ir it is h a r d t o b e l i e v e

r e a l ly i t i s v e r y h a r d to b e l ie v e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

C e r ta i n ly y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t y o u d id n o t d o

that.
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o d e f in it e ly n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w w h o e v e r w a s i n v o l v e d in t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n w i t h y o u d i d n o t d o th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t m y q u e s t io n t h e n i s i n r e g a r d t o t h is a l le g a ti o n

d i d y o u e v e r g e t g iv e n a n y s ta t e m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t m a d e b y a n y b o d y
s a y in g w h o i t w a s t h a t w a s s a i d t o h a v e m a d e t h i s p r o m is e t o o r
request to these two people?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

D i d y o u e v e r g e t g iv e n a s ta t e m e n t , a n a ffi d a v i t

w h e r e s o m e b o d y s a y s , I w a s p r e s e n t w h e n s o a n d s o a s k e d P a n d a y, M r
P a n d a y o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e t o i m p l ic a te t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
O r a s t a te m e n t b y t h e m o r a n y o n e o f t h e m s a y i n g , I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y
s o a n d s o w h o a s k e d m e t o i m p lic a t e t h e P C . D i d y o u e v e r g e t g iv e n
a n y th in g l ik e th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o t h i n g C h a ir n o th in g w h a ts o e v e r.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
N o t h i n g w h a ts o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u e v e r s e e in t h e d o c k e t a n y d o c u m e n t lik e
t h a t s ig n e d b y a n y b o d y ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir.

N o th i n g C h a ir. N o th i n g

w h a ts o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h a t y o u n e v e r s a w w e r e m a y b e th is m i g h t
h a v e b e e n s a i d w a s t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s t h a t c a m e fr o m M r P a n d a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t c o u l d b e p o s s i b l y y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: yes.
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t c o u l d b e I w o u l d n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e – i t m a y b e t h a t i n t h o s e r e s e r v a ti o n s t h a t k i n d o f
a l le g a ti o n w a s m a d e b u t i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p la c e d – p u t b e f o r e y o u s o
t h a t y o u c o u ld r e f u t e i t if y o u – i f t h a t w a s y o u r p o s i ti o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d i t w a s

never done.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know of any reason why it was not done?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir I c o u l d n o t th i n k o f a n y

r e a s o n . I t is j u s t a s I s a id a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y m y g u t w a s it w a s a
p o li t ic a l d e c is io n . Th e l e s s w e k n e w t h e l e s s w e c l o s e t h is m a t t e r, t h e
20

b e t t e r fo r e v e r y b o d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w b y t h a t ti m e o r e v e n b e f o r e y o u r e ti r e d y o u h a d
b e e n i n v o l v e d i n i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o f n u m e r o u s c a s e s o v e r t h e y e a r s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n a n u m b e r o f c a s e s w h e r e
p r o s e c u t o r s r e c e iv e d r e p r e s e n ta t io n s fr o m a c c u s e d p e r s o n s o r s u s p e c ts

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a b o u t r e q u e s ti n g t h e m to w i t h d r a w o r n o t t o p r o s e c u t e , is t h a t r ig h t?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And over the years are you able to say to me almost
in v a r i a b ly t h e p r o s e c u to r s w o u ld g i v e y o u a s a n in v e s t i g a t in g o ffi c e r
c o p i e s o f s u c h r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s s o t h a t y o u c o u l d c o m m e n t o r a r e y o u
not able to say that?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir e v e r y c a s e i n th e p a s t

t h a t I h a v e d e a l w i t h w h e r e w e r e c e i v e t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Or the prosecutor receives the

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s . T h e fir s t t h i n g t h a t h e w il l p h o n e m e , h e s a y s c o m e t o
m y o ffic e , lo o k w h a t w e h a v e g o t h e r e . W e h a v e g o t r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
L e t u s w o r k th r o u g h t h e m . T h e n w e w o r k t h r o u g h th e m a n d i f n e e d b e
w e n e e d t o g e t e v id e n c e o r o b ta i n a ffi d a v it s o r w h a t – t h a t i s h o w th e
w a y it is d e a l t w it h .
t h r o u g h th e r e p o r t .

Th e p r o s e c u t o r a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a to r t h e y w o r k
T h a t is – i t h a s a l w a y s h a p p e n e d i n t h e p a s t ,

always, always, always.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u m i g h t n o t w i t h r e g a r d to A d v o c a t e – o h th is
was Advocate Noko hey? That was declining to prosecute?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : L e t s h o lo .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e ts h o l o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a L e t s h o l o .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a y o u s a id y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th h i m f o r t h e f ir s t

ti m e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i n r e s p e c t o f o th e r p r o s e c u t o r s i n t h a t o ff ic e , i n
K Z N t h a t y o u h a d d e a l t w it h d id th e y a ls o f o l lo w t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u
h a v e ju s t d e s c r i b e d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N a m e l y i f t h e r e w e r e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s fr o m a n a c c u s e d
p e r s o n o r a s u s p e c t t h e y w o u l d c a ll i n t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r a n d s a y, l o o k
w h a t w e h a v e g o t l e t u s d e a l w i th it ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir a s f a r a s I k n o w a ll o f t h e m

do that yes.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d o y o u k n o w h o w lo n g A d v o c a te L e ts h o l o h a d

b e e n a p r o s e c u t o r a s a t th a t ti m e ? W a s i t s o m e b o d y n e w w h o h a d ju s t
jo in e d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir n o h e w a s n o t n e w.

I

r e c a l l t h a t C o lo n e l Pi e t w h o I b e li e v e is g o i n g t o c o m e t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n n e x t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D u P lo o y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : D u P l o o y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t h e w a s n o t n e w ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w a s n o t n e w.

No he was not

n e w.
CHAIRPERSON:

And would you have any doubt in your mind that he

w o u ld k n o w th a t t h i s is t h e p r o c e d u r e b a s e d o n h is e x p e r ie n c e a s y o u
u n d e r s t o o d it ?

Page 133 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s , d e fi n i t e ly C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : D e f i n i t e ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

If one has regard to paragraph

2 .8 p a g e 1 2 1 w h ic h I ju s t r e a d t o y o u .

I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t M r – is it

C o l o n e l – th a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n r e s p o n d e d to t h e s e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d
that document is found at page 128.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

S o r r y. C a n y o u ju s t r e p e a t . ..

( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry7. I am sorry you said paragraph 2.8 and
then?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o 2 .8 . A ll t h e s e a ll e g a ti o n s i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t
General Booysen

responded

to

what

he

c a ll s

a

m is s iv e

fr o m

A d v o c a t e N o k o a n d th a t d o c u m e n t is f o u n d a t p a g e 1 2 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n . H a n g o n . L e t u s fi n i s h w i t h 2 . 8 fir s t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I - I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u m o v e o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

I

want

to

put

to

him

what

-

what

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s r e s p o n s e t o th is w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Before you do that.

Look at 2. - paragraph

2 .8 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : O n p a g e 1 2 1 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 2 1 . Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .

Page 134 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s a y s :
“ T h e 4 6 6 c a s e is i n v e s t ig a t e d b y t h e m e m b e r s o f
the

p o lic e

who

fall

under

the

command

of

M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w h o is t h e c o m p l a i n a n t i n
the 466 case.

T h e ir o b j e c t iv i t y d e a li n g w it h t h is

c a s e b e c o m e s q u e s ti o n a b l e e s p e c ia ll y w i t h t h e C a t o
M a n o r c a s e c lo u d h a n g in g o v e r t h e ir h e a d s . Th is I
b e li e v e w o u ld s h a k e th e ir c r e d i b i li ty a n d t h e c o u r t
w o u ld

v ie w

a ll t h e s e

in

fa v o u r

of the

two

-

M r P a n d a y a n d C o lo n e l M a d h o e . ”

10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w d o e s t h a t - y o u - d i d y o u - d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d

h o w t h e C a t o M a n o r c a s e b e c o m e s r e l e v a n t fo r - f o r th is p u r p o s e h e r e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In te r m s o f y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . H o w w o u l d t h a t a ffe c t
…
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o . I h a v e g o t n o i d e a C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r c r e d i b i li ty. D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?

I ju s t w a n t t o

m a k e s u r e th a t …
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o . I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir, b u t
the

o n ly

thing

I

know

is

th a t

it

is

common

k n o w le d g e

that

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s th e Pr o v is io n a l H e a d o f t h e H a w k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

So

P r o v i n c ia l C o m m a n d e r …

Page 135 of 162

a u to m a t ic a l ly

he

is

our

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
Cato Manor case.

But the other comment about the

I h a d n o th in g t o d o w i th t h a t c a s e o r th a t

in v e s t i g a t io n w h a ts o e v e r a n d t h e p e o p le i n my t e a m w a s n o t c o n n e c te d
t o t h e C a to M a n o r c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

It

is

C o l o n e l G o v e n d e r.

C o l o n e l P h il li p H e r b s t a n d m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W e n e v e r w o r k e d a t C a t o M a n o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W e w e r e n e v e r c h a r g e d i n t h e C a t o
M a n o r. W e w e r e n e v e r … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e n o t s u s p e c ts i n t h e C a t o M a n o r c a s e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N e v e r e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h a t c a s e - t h e
e x i s te n c e o f t h a t c a s e i s s a i d t o h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e c o u r t
w o u ld ta k e i n t o a c c o u n t a g a in s t y o u i n t e r ms o f y o u r c r e d i b il it y.

So I

a m tr y i n g t o s e e t h e r a ti o n a li ty o f th e s e r e a s o n s g iv e n h e r e .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, I c a n n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t s u s p e c ts i n t h e C a to M a n o r
case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o th in g to d o w i t h - w i t h i t . T h e o n ly t h in g is
that

you

were

members

of

the

Page 136 of 162

Hawks

in

KZN

and

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s t h e H e a d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - th a t is y o u r o n ly c o n n e c t io n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a i r b e fo r e I - I g o o n , b e c a u s e I - I

w o u ld ju s t li k e t o d e a l w i t h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y g o o n . I w a n t e d to g e t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : C l a r i ty o n t h a t. Yo u m a y g o o n in t e r m s o f …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: What you were planning.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f I c a n j u s t p o in t o u t w h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s
r e s p o n s e to th e s e a v e r m e n ts w e h a v e j u s t r e a d a n d th e n I w il l g o b a c k
to the further ones.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t p a g e is t h a t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is p a g e 1 3 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: 1-3-1?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: At paragraph 2.7 he says:
“ I a m n o t t h e c o m p l a in a n t i n t h e m a t t e r o f D u r b a n
case 466.

T h is i s a d is i n g e n u o u s p r o p o s i t io n b y

A d v o c a t e N o k o s o a s to b u i ld a l e g e n d f o r h e r
i m p u t a ti o n s c o n t a i n e d i n p a r a g r a p h s 2 . 8 a n d 2 . 9

Page 137 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
in fr a .

F o r o n e t h e s t a t e is t h e c o m p l a in a n t i n th e

c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r.
witnesses.

I am merely one of many

A d v o c a te N o k o

clearly

does

u n d e r s t a n d m y r o l e in t h i s in v e s ti g a t io n .

not

She also

chooses to ignore the fact that the Durban Central
c a s e 7 8 1 i n v e s t i g a t io n w a s i n i t ia t e d b y n o n e o th e r
than

the

Fi n a n c i a l

Head

B r i g a d ie r L a w r e n c e K e m p .
B r i g a d ie r K e m p

knew

colluded

with

C o m m i s s i o n e r.

me

about

to
Had

the

Pr o v i n c e

-

I t is i n c o n c e i v a b l e t h a t

a l le g e d b y A d v o c a t e N o k o .

10

of

my

a s p ir a ti o n s

as

Unless he obviously

d is c r e d i t

the

Advocate Noko

P r o v i n c ia l
however

b o t h e r e d t o e x a m i n e B r ig a d i e r K e m p ’s s t a t e m e n t i n
D u r b a n c a s e 7 8 1 , s h e w o u l d h a v e e s t a b l is h e d t h e
o r i g in a n d s o u r c e o f t h is e n tir e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . ”
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th a t s ta t e m e n t i s t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t w e

w e r e d e a li n g w i th e a r l ie r in e v i d e n c e o f A d v o c a t e - o f …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B r i g a d ie r L a w r e n c e K e m p .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Br ig a d i e r K e m p .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h a t is c o r r e c t - t h a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n a s y o u q u i t e c o r r e c t ly h a d p o i n te d

o u t a s h e s a y s a ls o i n - a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .8 o n p a g e 1 - 3 - 1 .
“ A d v o c a t e N o k o i s m e n d a c i o u s i n s t a ti n g t h a t t h e

Page 138 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
in v e s t i g a t o r s o ff ic e r s ’ o b je c tiv i ty a r e q u e s ti o n a b le
e s p e c i a l ly a s th e C a t o M a n o r c a s e c lo u d h a n g in g
o v e r t h e ir h e a d s .
these

m a t te r s

are

Th e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffi c e r s i n
as

follows:

C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g .
C o l o n e l D u P lo o y.

Case

case
Case

122

-

781
466

-

Colonel Herbst.

N o n e o f t h e s e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r s ’ w e r e e v e r
a tt a c h e d t o t h e C a t o M a n o r U n it .

Th e y a r e n o t

i m p l ic a t e d i n th e C a t o M a n o r is s u e a t a l l.
10

Hence

t h e ir c r e d i b i li ty c a n n o t b e q u e s t i o n e d a s i m p li e d b y
Advocate Noko.”
W h i c h is w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d n o w l e t u s s e e w h a t is s a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. I n 7 8 1 w e r e y o u t h e o n ly in v e s ti g a t o r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u h a d a te a m u n d e r y o u ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o . I h a d a t e a m u n d e r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.

20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now in - back to page 121 at paragraph 2.9.
T h i s is s a i d :
“Major General Booysen being the complainant in
t h e 4 6 6 c a s e in t e r f e r e d w i t h a n d e x e r c is e d c o n tr o l

Page 139 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
in th is c a s e e v e n g o i n g t o a n e x t e n t o f d e t e r m in i n g
a n d d e c id in g o n w h o v is i ts C o l o n e l M a d h o e w h e n h e
w a s d e ta in e d i n D u r b a n C e n tr a l Pr is o n C e l ls i n t h e
466 case.

T h is i s e x h i b it e d b y th e l e tt e r t h a t w a s

is s u e d o n h is d i r e c t i n s tr u c ti o n t o t h e D u r b a n
C e n tr a l P o l ic e S t a ti o n C o m m a n d B r i g a d i e r S t o k e s .
T h i s l e t t e r d a t e d 1 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 a d d r e s s e d t o
a l l R e l ie f C o m m a n d e r s a n d C e l l C o m m a n d e r ti t le d
Vis i ta t i o n D u r b a n C e n t r a l - M a d h o e .
10

on

the

d ir e c t

Pr o v id e s t h a t

i n s tr u c t io n

fr o m

M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n o n ly th e f o l l o w in g p e r s o n s
w i ll b e a l lo w e d t o v is i t h i m . M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n
t w o , M a j o r G e n e r a l M o o d l e y. W h a t i s a m a z i n g w i t h
t h is

is

that

M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n

issues

an

in s t r u c t i o n r e g a r d i n g w h o m u s t v i s i t a s u s p e c t i n a
c a s e t h a t h e is th e c o m p l a i n a n t h i m s e l f. F u r th e r h e
a ls o h a s a v is it a ti o n r i g h t in t h i s a s it a p p e a r s in
t h e l e tt e r h i m b e in g m e n t io n e d a s n u m b e r o n e
among
20

those

Colonel Madhoe.

who
By

are
the

a ll o w e d
way

what

to

visit

w o u ld

a

c o m p la i n a n t w a n t t o v is i t a s u s p e c t in t h e ir o w n
case for?

T h is is u n h e a r d o f a n d s m a c k s o f a n

agenda.”
C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I o n ly b e c a m e a w a r e o f th is l e t te r

Page 140 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a t a l a t e r s ta g e C h a ir. T h a t is th e o n ly c o m m e n t I c a n m a k e o n t h is .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll - i f I c a n s h o w - t e ll y o u to g o to p a g e 1 3 - 2 w h a t C o l o n e l B o o y s e n ’s r e s p o n s e w a s a n d p e r h a p s y o u c a n
comment on that. At paragraph 2.9.
“ A d v o c a t e N o k o i s s e r i o u s l y m is g u id e d t o s u g g e s t
t h a t I i n t e r f e r e d w i t h t h e e x e r c i s e c o n tr o l i n D u r b a n
C e n tr a l c a s e 4 6 6 . H a d s h e c o m p l ie d w it h th e N PA
P o lic y G u id e li n e s s h e w a s a t li b e r ty t o c o n s u l t w i th
m e to e s t a b li s h th e fa c t s w h i c h I s h a ll d e t a i l b e l o w.
10

A s th e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d H a w k s i t i s i n c u m b e n t u p o n
me

to

e x e r c is e

c o n tr o l

over

a ll

i n v e s t ig a ti o n s

c o n d u c t e d b y th e H a w k s i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l .

The

N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r a t e H e a d H a w k s w e r e k e p t a b r e a s t
o f a ll d e v e l o p m e n t s i n t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . To s u g g e s t
t h a t I i n t e r f e r e d w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i s a k in to
s u g g e s t t h a t A d v o c a t e N o k o h e r s e l f i s i n te r f e r in g
w i t h t h e fu n c t io n s o f h e r s u b o r d in a te s .

Th e r e is

n o t h i n g m y s t e r io u s r e g a r d i n g m y i n s tr u c ti o n w i t h
r e g a r d to v is it s t o M a d h o e .
20

In i ti a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s

r e v e a l e d c o m p lic i ty b y o ffi c e r s w it h in S A P S .

This

e n tr y i n t o th e o c c u r r e n c e b o o k w a s m a d e t o o b v ia t e
a tt e m p ts b y o ff ic e r s w i t h m a l a fi d e s in t e n ti o n s .

I

h a v e d e a l t w it h t h e m a t t e r r e g a r d in g b e i n g t h e
c o m p la i n a n t a b o v e .

A g a i n th e t e n o r a n d t o n e o f

A d v o c a t e N o k o ’s c o n te n ti o n s a p p e a r s t o b e t h a t o f

Page 141 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
a d e f e n c e c o u n s e l r a th e r t h a n t h a t o f a p r o s e c u to r.
T h e f a c t t h a t I h a d n o t v is it e d C o l o n e l M a d h o e a t a l l
s u b s e q u e n t t o h is a r r e s t o r t h a t I h a d n o t p e r s o n a l ly
c o m m u n ic a te d

w i th

him

d ir e c t ly

or

in d i r e c t ly

d e m o n s t r a t e s th a t A d v o c a te N o k o ’s a s s e r t i o n t h a t i t
s m a c k s o f a n a g e n d a is m is g u i d e d a n d I r e j e c t i t
with contempt.”
C a n y o u c o m m e n t?
C O L O N O L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
10

Ye s . I a g r e e w i t h w h a t t h e -

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n is s a y in g C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And now …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll y o u a r e a s k i n g t h e w i t n e s s t o c o m m e n t o n j u s t

a r g u m e n t r e a ll y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h in k w e s h o u ld s p e n d ti m e o n - o n t h is w i t h
t h is w i t n e s s .

General Booysen if he did not cover this when he gave

evidence last year …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W o u ld n e e d t o c o m e i n o r a t le a s t d o a n a ff i d a v i t

c o n fir m i n g …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t t h i s w a s h is m e m o r a n d u m a n d c o n fi r m in g t h e

correctness of …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of this.

Page 142 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O t h e r w is e a s k t h is w i t n e s s q u e s ti o n s t h a t l e d t o

m a t t e r s w h e r e h e c a n r e a lly a d d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va l u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e r e is o n l y o n e fi n a l a s p e c t th a t I w o u l d lik e
y o u to c o m m e n t o n w i t h r e g a r d t o th is d o c u m e n t .

I f y o u c o u ld g o t o

p a g e 1 2 2 a n d i t is p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 0 a n d I w o u ld li k e y o u r c o m m e n t o n
t h is .
10

“ T h e a ll e g a t io n t h a t t h e a c c u s e d i n 4 6 6 M r P a n d a y
and Colonel Madhoe wanted Major General Booysen
t o p r e d a t e a r e p o r t i n th e 7 8 1 c a s e i n o r d e r t o h a v e
t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s e t a s i d e - s u b p o e n a s f o r
access

to

th e

bank

account

records

and

c o n s e q u e n t ly b r ib e d M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o d o
that.

D o e s n o t r e a l ly h o l d w a t e r, b e c a u s e t h e f a c t

is th a t if t h e r e h a s b e e n a n y c o r r u p ti o n , b r i b in g o f
M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t h a t t o o k p la c e w o u ld n o t
m a k e t h e c o r r u p ti o n a n d i ts s u c c e s s f u l p r o s e c u ti o n
20

i m p o s s i b le a s S e c ti o n s 3 ( B) a n d 4 ( 1 ) ( B ) o f t h e
P r e v e n ti o n o f C o m b a t ti n g o f C o r r u p t A c ti v i ti e s Ac t
12 of 2004 state.

T h e a ll e g e d r e p o r t in t h e 7 8 1

c a s e t h a t it w a s a l l e g e d w a s t o b e p r e d a t e d t o
v a l i d a t e t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s d i d n o t s u ff ic e
t o p r o v e fr a u d o r a n y o ff e n c e a g a in s t a n y o n e

Page 143 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
e s p e c i a l ly … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s W e n tz e l t h a t is a ll a r g u m e n t b y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
I t is n o t f a c ts o r a lo t o f i t a t le a s t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: But …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h i s w it n e s s w h a t d o y o u w a n t t h is w i t n e s s to d o
a b o u t i t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

W h a t I w a n t h i m t o c o m m e n t is - is th is a

r e a s o n , b e c a u s e w h a t is s t a te d is - it is - i t is a l m o s t a s a c i r c u i t o u s
r e a s o n in g .

Is t h a t h o w is i t p o s s ib l e t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s th is

b r i b in g th a t i t c a n h a v e a n y e ff e c t o n t h e s u b p o e n a s a n d t h e r e f o r e y o u
c a n n o t p r o s e c u t e s e c ti o n - c a s e 4 4 6 - 4 6 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a r g u m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a r g u m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll ta k e th e p o i n t . I f w e m a y t h e n g o b a c k
t o y o u r s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Page - I think we have dealt with paragraph

1 3 . W e h a v e d e a l t I t h i n k m a in ly w i t h w h a t is s a i d w i t h r e g a r d t o - o h .
T h i s is - i s a c tu a l ly q u i t e i m p o r t a n t, b e c a u s e t h e r e is a f u r th e r
d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s l o c a t e d t h i s m o r n in g w h ic h I w o u ld l ik e t o d e a l w i t h .
If we can go to paragraph 13 on page 16. Now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u s a i d w h a t t r a n s p i r e d w i th t h is d r a f t

m e m o r a n d u m w i th C o lo n e l J o n e s .

Yo u h a v e in d ic a te d t h a t t h e d r a f t

m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h w a s u lt i m a t e ly p r e p a r e d b y A d v o c a t e N o k o w a s i n
C o l o n e l J o n e s ’ p o s s e s s io n .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w w a s t h e c a s e t h e n w it h d r a w n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t th e n d i d C o l o n e l J o n e s d o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, w h a t C o lo n e l J o n e s t h e n d id
10

is h e a c t u a l ly w r o t e a l e t te r t o t h e

Pr o v in c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r -

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i n o t th e f in a n c e - n o t th e fi n a n c e e a r li e r
in d i c a t e d i n th is a ffi d a v i t . I t i s a c o r r e c ti o n . H e a c t u a ll y w r o t e a l e t t e r
t o t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r - L i e u te n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i .
S t a ti n g th a t th e c a s e h a s b e e n w i t h d r a w n a n d h e h e a r d fr o m
h is a t t o r n e y a n d t h a t th e m o n e y th a t w a s b e i n g h e l d m u s t b e p a i d o u t to
Thoshan Panday

-

h e ld

by

the

p o lic e .

Must

be

paid

out

to

T h o s h a n P a n d a y a n d a s f a r a s w e c o u l d g a t h e r s h e a c tu a l ly - n o n e o f
u s k n e w a b o u t t h is l e t te r.
I m e a n I d o n o t k n o w w h y, b e c a u s e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n s to p p e d
20

t h is p a y in g o u t a n d C o l o n e l J o n e s w r i ti n g a l e t te r t o t h e s u s p e c t in 7 8 1
r e q u e s t in g a u t h o r i s a t io n t o r e l e a s e th e f u n d s t o p a y o u t a n o t h e r
suspect. I mean it does not make sense.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . T h a t w o u l d n o t n o r m a lly b e h is b u s i n e s s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 145 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e s u s p e c t o r h is a t t o r n e y s w o u ld b e t h e o n e s
w h o w o u ld b e e x p e c t e d to w r i te a n d s a y n o w t h a t t h e c a s e i s w i th d r a w n
w e b e l ie v e o u r c l i e n t s h o u l d b e p a i d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 . 1 2 t h a t th is a n n e x u r e
10

- t h i s l e t te r w a s s ti ll t o b e l o c a t e d . C h a ir t h e C o m m i s s i o n in v e s t i g a t o r s
w e r e a b l e t o o b t a in a c o p y o f t h is fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g
A u t h o r i ty fr o m t h e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e le t t e r ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A t t h e e n d o f th e b u n d l e a t p a g e 3 - 9 - 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: I do not seem to have 3-9-9.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Three …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : 3 - 9 - 9 .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : My la s t p a g e s e e m s t o b e …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Oh.

I t is t h e s a m e d i ffi c u l ty t h a t y o u h a d

C h a ir. I a m n o w r e a d in g t h e b la c k a s o p p o s e d t o - I a m tr y i n g to s e e
what it is. It is page 3-0-3.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w t h is l e t t e r i s a d d r e s s e d t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l

Page 146 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d I a m tr y i n g to - th e d a te i s 2 6 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a n d i t
says:
“ H e r e w i th

attached

memorandum
the

dated

25 March 2014

from

p r o s e c u to r

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o .

A d e c is io n h a s b e e n m a d e b y

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o t o d e c li n e p r o s e c u t io n .

The

s u s p e c ts d e f e n c e a t t o r n e y s a n d t h e in v e s t ig a to r s i n
t h e m a t t e r h a v e b e e n m a d e a w a r e o f t h is d e c i s i o n
a s i n d ic a t e d i n th e m e m o r a n d u m . T h e i n v e s ti g a to r s
h a v e s i n c e r e l e a s e d a ll t h e e x h i b it s t h a t w e r e

10

s e i z e d i n th e i r la w f u l o w n e r s . I t w a s b r o u g h t to m y
a tt e n ti o n b y th e d e fe n c e t h a t t h e s t a te a l s o n e e d s
t o r e l e a s e fu n d s t h a t h a d b e e n h e ld b a c k d u e t o t h e
p e n d i n g i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t h a s s in c e b e e n d e c l in e d
a g a in s t th e s u s p e c t s i n v o lv e d .

To a v o i d a n y c i v i l

a c ti o n

it

against

the

state

is

therefore

r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t th e m a t t e r is fi n a l is e d a s s o o n
a s p o s s i b le . ”
C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, t h is i s in a p p r o p r i a t e . I m e a n
t h is s h o u l d n e v e r h a v e b e e n d o n e . H e h a s g o t n o a u t h o r i ty t o d o s o a t
a l l.

I t is a ll I c a n c o m m e n t o n t h a t, b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h is

in t e r e s t w a s i n t h i s m a t t e r, b u t t h e r e w e r e s u r e ly s ig n s th a t h e h a d
s o m e in t e r e s t i n t h is m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d is it c o r r e c t t h a t w h a t is s a i d in p a r a g r a p h
4 t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e s i n c e r e le a s e d a l l t h e e x h i b i ts t h a t w e r e
s e i z e d t o t h e ir la w f u l o w n e r s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o C h a ir. T h a t i s n o t c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n i f y o u c a n h a v e r e g a r d t o a

document on page 300.

It is a n e m a il s e n t fr o m C o l o n e l G o v e n d e r

d a t e d 5 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 t o B r i g a d i e r Va n G r a a n a n d t h e - i t d e a l s w i t h t h e
p r e v i o u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s r e g a r d i n g t h e a c ti o n s o f C o lo n e l J o n e s a n d
y o u w il l s e e t h a t y o u w e r e c o p i e d o n t h a t e m a il .
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D o y o u r e m e m b e r th is e m a i l ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C o l o n e l J o n e s in f o r m e d m e a b o u t

t h is e m a il to h i m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And if we can just refer to it. It says that:
“ Ye s te r d a y 4 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 I h a d a m e e t in g - a n
appointment

with

M a j o r G e n e r a l ( i n d is t i n c t)

the

H e a d o f L e g a l S e r v ic e s t o o b t a in h e r a ffi d a v i t w i t h
regards

to

in v e s t i g a t io n

of

Durban

case

781.

D u r i n g th e m e e ti n g s h e r a i s e d t h e fa c t o f r e c e iv i n g
20

a l e t t e r fr o m C o l o n e l J o n e s s t a t i n g t h a t t h e m a t t e r
w h ic h is D u r b a n c a s e 7 8 1 h a s b e e n b r o u g h t t o h e r
a tt e n ti o n .

Th a t i t h a s b e e n d e c li n e d t o p r o s e c u t e

a n d C o lo n e l J o n e s h a d s ta t e d in t h e l e t te r t o
p r e v e n t a n y c iv i l c l a i m a g a i n s t t h e s t a te t h a t s h e
m a y a t te n d to t h e m a t t e r o f t h e c i v i l c l a i m .

Page 148 of 162

T h is

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
le t t e r

was

addressed

C o m m i s s i o n e r.
Colonel Jones

to

Attached
fo r

your

the

P r o v i n c ia l

le t t e r

sent

by

in f o r m a t io n .

Also

C o l o n e l J o n e s h a s a t t a c h e d t h e d e c is i o n fr o m t h e
prosecutor

to

possession.

his

letter

w h ic h

you

have

in

I t h e n in f o r m e d th e G e n e r a l t h a t t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n t e a m w a s u n a w a r e o f t h i s l e tt e r a n d
t h e r e w a s n o c o m m u n i c a t io n b y C o l o n e l J o n e s w i th
the team.
10

T h i s w a s r e p o r t e d t o y o u r o ffi c e h a s

u n b e c o m in g … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

M s W e n t z e l y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to r e a d t h a t w h o l e

email please.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O h . I w il l n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: What - what is the point?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D o y o u a g r e e w i t h t h e c o n te n ts o f w h a t is

s t a te d i n th is … ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I d o C h a ir.

20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s a n d t h e r e is t h e n a n e m a il d a te d

3 1 J u ly 2 0 1 4

at

appearing

page

3-0-1

to

3-0-2

from

you

to

B r i g a d ie r Va n G r a a n w it h r e g a r d to t h i s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D o y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h is e m a il a n d
d o y o u r e c a l l w h a t i t w a s a b o u t? I f y o u c a n j u s t …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t is t h e c o n d u c t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : G e n e r a l ly i n fo r m t h e C h a ir.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

It is the conduct of Colonel Jones

d u r i n g th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d I c o n fir m t h a t th is is
m y e m a il C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t h e m a in p o i n ts in t h e e m a il w a s i t r e s p o n d i n g to
a p a r t ic u l a r e m a il fr o m s o m e b o d y o n w h a t a n d w h a t d id h e s a y i n t e r m s
o f - j u s t t h e g is t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t - i t d e a ls w i t h t h is c o n d u c t o f C o l o n e l J o n e s
w h ic h o c c u r r e d o n 3 0 J u l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d h is v i e w i n …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d i d y o u s a y i n t h e e m a il a b o u t th e c o n d u c t o f

Colonel Jones?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir j u s t th e i n fo r m a ti o n w h ic h

w a s r e c e iv e d f r o m - I ju s t - t h e s e c o n d l a s t p a r a g r a p h . I s a id :
“The

action

of

O ffic e r C o l o n e l J o n e s

is

highly

q u e s t io n a b l e a s h e h a s n o w a ff e c t e d t w o w i t n e s s e s
o f t h e D u r b a n C e n tr a l c a s e 7 8 1 . ”
B e c a u s e h e a p p r o a c h e d C o l o n e l M o o d le y th a t w a s w o r k i n g i n t h e
Fi n a n c e O ff ic e w i t h B r ig a d i e r K e m p .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w a f te r t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f A d v o c a te N o k o
you said the case was withdrawn.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . I t w a s C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r t h a t ? D id y o u
c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s ? W h a t d id y o u a s in v e s ti g a t o r s d o ?

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir, w e - f ir s t o f a ll w e w a n t e d t o
k e e p t h e d o c k e t a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t e d t o … ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : K e e p t h e d o c k e t a w a y fr o m t h e r e s t
o f t h e p o l ic e f o r c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. To h id e i t fr o m t h e m .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

t o h id e it fr o m t h e m .

S o th e o n l y

le g a l w a y w e c o u l d d o th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h y d id y o u w a n t to h id e i t fr o m t h e m ?
10

What

did you think …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : W e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e g o in g to d o ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir w i t h a ll th e th i n g s t h a t w e r e

g o i n g o n d u r i n g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e a ll e g a ti o n s a n d th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u th o u g h t i t c o u l d g e t l o s t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d e v e r y t h i n g a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

L e ts h o l o ’s l e t t e r a n d N o k o ’s l e tt e r.

W e d e c i d e d t h e n t o - w e d is c u s s e d th e m a t t e r w i th M a j o r - a g M a jo r G e n e r a l - w h a t is h e r s u r n a m e ? M a h a r a j . S h e w a s H e a d o f I P I D
K Z N a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e a n d i t i s c l e a r f r o m th e d o c k e ts - f r o m 7 8 1 t h e d o c k e t 7 8 1 th a t p o l ic e c o r r u p ti o n i s i n v o l v e d a n d i t w a s t h e ir
m a n d a t e to in v e s t i g a t e t h a t .

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
O n t h e C A S s y s t e m y o u c a n p h y s ic a l ly b o o k o u t c a s e s t o I P I D
- o n t h e s y s t e m a n d w h a t I d id . I m a d e s u r e t h a t w e b o o k e d o u t 7 8 1 t o
I P I D o n t h e C A S s y s t e m . W h a t w e t h e n d id i s w e t o o k t h e d o c k e t a n d
w e g a v e i t o v e r t o G e n e r a l M a h a r a j w a s t h e I P I D P r o v i n c ia l H e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e n a ft e r t h a t w e h a d a m e e t in g

w i t h - w i t h t h e N a t io n a l H e a d o f I P I D a n d w i th h is a d v o c a t e s a n d th e y
a g r e e d t h e r e is a c a s e a n d t h e y w i ll s e e i f t h e y c a n ta k e i t f u r t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h o w a s a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
General Maharaj.

It

I t w a s Tr e v o r W h i t e .

was

m y s e l f.

It

It was Peter Pau.

was
It was

S Y G o v e n d e r a n d t h e H e a d o f I P I D a t th a t s t a g e w a s M c Br id e M r Mc B r i d e .

He was the Head of IPID at that stage.

They were

present.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a ft e r y o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e d o c k e t to

t h e m w h a t w a s M r - G e n e r a l M c Br i d e - M r M c Br i d e ’s a t ti t u d e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w a s - h e a g r e e d w i t h u s th a t

t h e r e w a s a c a s e i n 7 8 1 a g a i n s t t h e p e o p l e m e n t io n e d a n d a ls o w e h a d
20

in t e r v ie w e d h i m w i t h th is a d v o c a te s a f t e r t h e y l o o k e d a t t h e d o c k e t a t
I P I D a n d th e y a g r e e d a s w e l l a n d th e n a f t e r t h a t th a t is w h e n w e w e r e
c a l l e d b y A d v o c a te G e r r i e N e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

We

A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l.

Page 152 of 162

were

c a ll e d

by

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e w a s th e n i n p o s s e s s io n o f t h e

d o c k e t. S o h e m u s t h a v e h a d d e a l in g s w i t h I P I D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

B u t t h e n a t a la t e r s ta g e I h e a r d

t h a t i t w a s ta k e n a w a y fr o m h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e - h e c a ll e d y o u t o c o m e t o s e e h i m i n P r e to r i a ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

H e - h e c a m e t o in t e r v i e w u s i n

D u r b a n - A d v o c a t e G e r r ie N e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

With the docket and we went

t h r o u g h th e d o c k e t a n d h e a g r e e d y e s t h e r e is d e f i n i t e ly a p r i m a f a c ie
case.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h e r e is e n o u g h e v i d e n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

A n d a ft e r t h a t it j u s t w e n t d e a d

u n t il w e h e a r d t h a t A d v o c a te S h a u n A b r a h a m s g a v e in s t r u c t i o n t o
r e i n s t i tu t e t h e c h a r g e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n te r ms o f - s o r r y.

In t e r m s o f t h e v i e w t h a t

A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l to o k o f t h e m a t te r t h e - th e m a t t e r s h o u l d h a v e
been reinstated?

Page 153 of 162

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o th i n g h a p p e n e d f o r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s C h a ir a n d h e - h e h a d th e

v ie w s w e h a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d a s I s a y a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y
h is v ie w d id n o t c o u n t o r i t d id n o t m a t t e r, b e c a u s e i t w a s ta k e n a w a y
fr o m h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s ta k e n a w a y fr o m h i m ?
10

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . H o w d o y o u k n o w t h a t?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Be cause

we

wondered

what

h a p p e n e d w i th t h e m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t h e n ( i n d i s t i n c t) t h e m a t t e r w a s
t a k e n a w a y fr o m h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id - d i d y o u a s k s o m e b o d y ?

Who told you that in

t h e N PA ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

Ja.

We - we asked around.

E v e r y b o d y s a id n o . I t w a s t a k e n fr o m h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h o w a s i t g i v e n to ? W e r e y o u t o l d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

I - I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.

k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I d o n o t .

Page 154 of 162

I do not

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
CHAIRPERSON: But for many years …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: After that
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h i n g w a s h a p p e n in g a b o u t i t ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

U n ti l A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s s a id it s h o u l d b e

pursued?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d th e n a ft e r
10

that

Thoshan Panday

fi l e d

papers

for

the

permanent

s ta y

of

prosecution.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

T h e s t a te t h e n h a d t o a p p o i n t a

S il k f r o m t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g B a r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

And

two

o th e r

advocates

-

A d v o c a t e H il t o n E p s te in …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
20

And two other advocates who are

d e a li n g w i t h t h e c iv il m a t te r a n d i t is c o s t in g t h e s ta t e h u n d r e d s a n d
h u n d r e d s o f t h o u s a n d s o f R a n d s n o w t o g e t t h is t h i n g b a c k o n t h e r o ll
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A n d t o fi g h t t h i s t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

N o w w h e n - w h e n w a s i t - i f y o u a r e a b l e to

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
r e m e m b e r - w h e n A d v o c a te A b r a h a m s s a i d th e m a t t e r s h o u ld b e
r e i n s t a te d ? W h ic h y e a r ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

C h a ir th is w a s - if I c a n r e c a l l

c o r r e c t ly. W h a t w e a r e i n 2 0 - I t h i n k i t w a s 2 0 1 7 o r 2 0 1 8 . I f I a m n o t
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . O k a y. S o m e w h e r e a r o u n d t h o s e y e a r s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Som ewhere around those years

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t - t h a t i s f i n e . Ms W e n tz e l.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w d id y o u c o n s u l t w i t h t h e S ilk ? W h o w a s
t h a t S il k ? D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h o w a s t h e … ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t w a s A d v o c a t e H il t o n E p s te in .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D id y o u c o n s u l t w i t h h i m ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
consulted with us.

Ye s C h a ir.

He came down.

He

Us being myself and Colonel Govender and

e v e n t u a l ly h e o b t a i n e d a n a ff id a v i t f r o m t h e N D P P a t t h a t ti m e A d v o c a t e Si l a s R a m a i te

and

I

read

through

the

a ffi d a v it

with

A d v o c a t e Si l a s R a m a i te a n d I f u r t h e r c o n fir m e d w i th a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t
w h a t w a s i n A d v o c a te S i la s R a m a it e ’s a ff i d a v i t is tr u e a n d c o r r e c t a n d
20

t h a t m a t te r is s t il l o n g o in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I s e e - I s e e t h a t y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 1 4 . 1 2

that:
“ A f t e r t h e th e n N D P P M r N x a s a n a h a d a p p o i n t e d
Advocate Gerrie Nel and Andrew - Mr Andrew Lisk
t o d e a l w i th t h e c a s e a n d th a t a f t e r t h e y h a d

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
in t e r v ie w e d y o u s h o r tl y t h e r e a f te r M r N x a s a n a a n d
Advocate Gerrie Nel were removed.”
S o th is w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d 2 0 1 5 I w o u l d i m a g i n e , b e c a u s e I t h i n k
…
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : C h a ir y o u a r e … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N x a s a n a w a s r e m o v e d …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : E it h e r i n 2 0 1 5 o r 2 0 1 6 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a . J a . 2 0 1 5 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Would

this

not

have

been

the

ti m e

when

A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l l e ft t h e N PA ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o C h a ir. I w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o c o u l d it b e t h a t h e w a s n o t r e m o v e d fr o m t h e c a s e
as such …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o C h a ir. I …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e l e f t a n d th e n i t h a d t o b e g iv e n t o s o m e b o d y

e ls e .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir.

I w a s in - I f in is h e d i n

2 0 1 5 a n d h e c a m e a n d s a w u s b e fo r e th a t - l o n g b e fo r e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o t h a t is b e f o r e A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 w h e n
I w e n t o n p e n s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : I t w a s lo n g b e fo r e t h a t . H e …
CHAIRPERSON:
s t a te m e n t

in

Oh.
15

O k a y.
-

in

W e l l i n - in t h a t e v e n t p r o b a b ly y o u r
paragraph

14.12

that

s h o r t ly

after

A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l h a d in t e r v i e w e d y o u h e a n d Mr N x a s a n a w e r e
r e m o v e d . Pr o b a b ly th a t i s n o t a c c u r a te t h e n , b e c a u s e I g u e s s n o b o d y
c o u l d r e m o v e - I m e a n t h e r e m o v a l o f M r N x a s a n a t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g
t o - t a l k i n g a b o u t m u s t b e h i s d e p a r t u r e fr o m t h e N PA a s N D P P.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o h e w a s n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t t a l k i n g a b o u t h i m b e i n g r e m o v e d fr o m t h e
10

case?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :
case.

No.

H e w a s r e m o v e d fr o m t h e

H e w a s n o t - h e d i d n o t r e s i g n a s f a r a s I c a n r e c a l l a t th a t

moment.
CHAIRPERSON: But - but nobody could remove him from the case. He
was the big boss there.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o , n o . H e w a s - h e …
CHAIRPERSON: He was the NDPP …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : N o , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N a ti o n a ll y.
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s ,

but

I

know

when

A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s c a m e i n a f te r t h a t t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r A b r a h a ms c a m e h e r e - c a m e a f te r M r N x a s a n a h a d
le f t .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d Mr N x a s a n a le f t e i t h e r i n 2 0 1 5 o r 2 0 1 6 . I c a n n o t

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
r e m e m b e r, b u t i t i s o n e o f th o s e y e a r s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: So, but what I am saying …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : A s f a r a s I c a n r e c a ll C h a ir is t h a t
w h e n A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a ms w a s a p p o i n t e d t h a t is w h e n i t w a s
t a k e n a w a y fr o m h i m - fr o m A d v o c a te G e r r i e N e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

O k a y.

A lr i g h t .

O k a y.

S o t h a t - t h a t m e a n s it

w o u ld t h e n h a v e b e e n c e r t a i n l y n o t e a r l ie r t h a n 2 0 1 5 , b e c a u s e
M r N x a s a n a - Mr A b r a h a m s o n ly c a m e a f t e r Mr N x a s a n a h a d le f t th e
10

N PA a n d M r N x a s a n a o n ly l e f t t h e N PA e i th e r i n 2 0 1 5 o r 2 0 1 6 .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. S o - s o th e - t h e t i m in g m i g h t - y o u m i g h t
n o t b e a c c u r a t e a b o u t th e ti m i n g , b u t I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u r e v id e n c e
is . Yo u m a y c o n t i n u e M s W e n tz e l.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

W e r e y o u t o l d w h y a n e x te r n a l

c o u n s e l w a s a p p o in t e d to d e a l w i th M r P a n d a y ’s a p p l ic a ti o n fo r a
p e r m a n e n t s ta y o f e x e c u t i o n ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : S o r r y. I c o u ld n o t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

W e r e y o u t o l d w h y a n e x te r n a l c o u n s e l

in s t e a d o f a n e m p l o y e e a t th e N PA w a s a p p o i n t e d …
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : B y th e - b y th e s t a t e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : By t h e s t a t e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Ye s .

I d o n o t a c tu a l ly r e c a ll t h e

s p e c i f ic r e a s o n s w h y p r iv a t e c o u n s e l w a s a p p o i n t e d t o d o t h is , b u t I
k n o w b e c a u s e A d v o c a t e E p s te in m a d e c o n t a c t w i th m e a n d h e to l d m e

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
h e w a s a p p o i n t e d t o t a k e t h is m a t te r u p in t h e H ig h - u p i n th e H i g h
C o u r t a n d d e f e n d it a n d i t is s t il l p e n d in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

But of course the appointment of external counsel

s h o u l d n o t b e a n y t h i n g r e m a r k a b le .

Is it n o t ?

T h a t h a p p e n s q u it e

o ft e n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

It does - it does happen often.

T h e w i t n e s s h a d s a i d s o m e t h in g t o m e e a r li e r, b u t I - I c a n n o t t a k e i t
f u r th e r.

T h e n ju s t f o r c o m p l e te n e s s y o u s a y t h a t A d v o c a t e E p s te i n

d r a f t e d a n a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w a s s i g n e d b y M r R a m a it e . T h a t a p p e a r s a t
10

p a g e 1 5 3 w h ic h y o u c o n f ir m e d i n th e p r o c e e d i n g s .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h a t t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u c o n f ir m e d ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A r e y o u a w a r e w h a t th e c u r r e n t s ta t u s is o f

t h e P a n d a y i n v e s ti g a t i o n s ?
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

Yo u

are

t a lk i n g

about

t h is

a p p lic a ti o n ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

J u s t w h a t is h a p p e n i n g in th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s

… ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
20

C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G :

N o C h a ir.

T h e o n ly th i n g th a t I

k n o w is i t i s a t a s t a n d s t il l a n d t h e y a r e w a i ti n g f o r th is c iv i l m a t te r t o
b e f in a lis e d b e f o r e t h e y c a n a c t u a l ly m o v e f u r th e r o n w it h t h a t t h i n g
and

I

am

aware

that

A d v o c a t e W e n d y O ’ Br i e n

466
fr o m

is
the

p r e s e n tly

being

C o m m e r c ia l

KwaZulu-Natal.

Page 160 of 162

dealt

Crime

with

by

C o u r ts

in

15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir fr o m m y s i d e t h a t c o n c lu d e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: The witness’ evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Th a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u v e r y, v e r y m u c h

M r Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g f o r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v id e n c e .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t is a p l e a s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If w e n e e d y o u to c o m e b a c k w e w i ll a s k y o u t o c o m e
b a c k , b u t fo r n o w y o u a r e e x c u s e d .
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
C O L O N E L VA N L O G G E R E N B E R G : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m o r r o w d i d y o u s a y t h a t t h e w i tn e s s w il l b e …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: General Lebeya.
CHAIRPERSON: Lebeya?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h a t - a n d t h e n h is e v id e n c e - I h a v e s e e n
h is a ffi d a v it . I t is n o t s h o r t a t a l l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is n o t s h o r t a t a l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s u s p e c t i t m i g h t b e th e a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u f e e l
t h a t t h e r e i s a l o t o f i s s u e s t h a t a r e n o t c o n te n ti o u s a n d n e e d n o t b e
d e a lt w i t h i n - i n g r e a t d e t a i l .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o . Th e o n e t h a t I w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t is s h o r t e r - i s

m u c h s h o r te r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh.

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15 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 199
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e t h a t h i s o n e a l s o h a s g o t th o s e fe a t u r e s , b u t
t h e o n e I h a d i n m in d i s m u c h s h o r t e r t h a n h is .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e w i ll h a v e to s ta r t a t h a l f p a s t 1 0 t o m o r r o w.

Ye s te r d a y I s a id w e w o u l d s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t 1 0 to d a y, b u t I d i s c o v e r e d
t h a t m y c o m m i t m e n t w a s g o i n g t o h a p p e n . S o w e w i ll s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t
1 0 t o m o r r o w.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
10

R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U E S T A D J O U R N S TO 1 6 J A N U A R Y 2 0 2 0

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