C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 1 5 J U LY 2 0 1 9 D AY 1 3 3 20 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 1 5 J U LY 2 0 1 9 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d M o r n i n g M r Pr e to r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y, good morning Mr Zuma. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . B e f o r e w e s t a r t I h a v e a fe w r e m a r k s t o make. To d a y th e fo r m e r p r e s i d e n t o f t h e R e p u b l ic M r J a c o b Z u m a a p p e a r s b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n w i t h o u t h a v in g b e e n c o m p e l le d t o d o s o a n d i n r e s p o n s e t o a r e q u e s t fr o m t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o g iv e a n u n d e r t a k i n g t h a t h e w o u ld a p p e a r b e f o r e i t t h is w e e k w h ic h h e g a v e . 10 T h e c o m m i s s i o n a p p r e c i a t e s t h a t h e is h e r e . I a c c e p t t h a t th r o u g h h i s l a w y e r s h e h a d i n d ic a te d th a t h e h a s c e r t a i n r e s e r v a t io n s a b o u t th e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t h a t h e r e s e r v e s h is r ig h ts i n a p p e a r in g b e fo r e th e c o m m is s i o n . The commission has no d i ff ic u l ty w i t h t h i s a n d a c c e p t s t h a t e v e r y o n e i s e n ti tl e d t o h a v e a n o p i n i o n a b o u t th e c o m m i s s i o n . I ju s t w a n t to m a k e it c l e a r t h a t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t is n o t th e o n ly l e a d e r i n t h is c o u n tr y w h o is g o i n g t o b e a p p e a r i n g b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n . T h e r e a r e o t h e r s w h o w i ll b e a p p e a r in g b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d I a ls o w is h t o p o in t o u t th a t th e c o m m i s s i o n is n o t 20 m a n d a t e d t o p r o v e a n y c a s e a g a i n s t a n y b o d y b u t i t i s m a n d a te d to in v e s t i g a t e a n d e n q u ir e i n t o c e r ta in a ll e g a ti o n s a n d a s I h a v e in d i c a t e d o v e r a lo n g p e r i o d it in v i t e s e v e r y o n e w h o h a s i n fo r m a t i o n o r k n o w l e d g e o f m a t te r s t h a t f a ll u n d e r i ts t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e t o m a k e t h a t in f o r m a ti o n a v a il a b l e to it s o t h a t i t c a n i n v e s ti g a te t h o s e m a t t e r s . I n d o i n g i ts w o r k t h is c o m m i s s i o n w i ll s e e k to h e a r f r o m a s Page 2 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 m a n y p e o p le a s p o s s i b le w i th in t h e t i m e a n d f i n a n c i a l c o n s tr a i n ts t h a t i t has. I t w il l s e e k t o h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f d i ffe r e n t p e r s p e c tiv e s fr o m d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e i n o u r c o u n tr y in r e g a r d t o t h e is s u e s t h a t i t h a s – th a t it h a s t o i n v e s t ig a t e . S o t h a t a s f a r a s p o s s ib l e a t t h e e n d o f i ts w o r k i t w i ll b e a b l e t o m a k e f in d in g s b a s e d o n a s f u ll e v i d e n c e a s p o s s i b le a n d b a s e d o n h a v i n g h e a r d a s d i ff e r e n t – d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c t iv e s fr o m d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e a b o u t t h e m a t t e r s t h a t i t is i n v e s t ig a ti n g . I t i s i m p o r t a n t t o e m p h a s i s e t h a t t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r s a r e m a n d a t e d to s e e k t o e s ta b lis h w h a t t h e f a c ts a r e t h r o u g h q u e s t i o n s th a t 10 t h e y a s k a n d n o t t o p r o v e a n y p a r ti c u la r a ll e g a t io n a g a i n s t a n y b o d y. B u t t h e y a r e r e q u ir e d t o a s s i s t m e a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e c o m m i s s io n b y a s k i n g q u e s t io n s i n c lu d i n g th o s e th a t w il l s e e k to e s t a b li s h w h a t th e tr u th is . T h i s c o m m i s s io n a t t e m p ts a t a l l t i m e s to t r e a t a ll th o s e w h o a p p e a r b e fo r e i t w i t h r e s p e c t a n d c o u r t e s y w i t h o u t c o m p r is i n g i ts m a n d a t e b u t w i ll b e f ir m w h e r e f ir m n e s s i s r e q u ir e d . Th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t i n a p p e a r i n g b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n t h i s w e e k i s e x p e c t e d to d e a l w i t h v a r i o u s m a t te r s i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h c e r ta in w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e b e e n id e n t i fi e d h a v e s u b m it t e d s ta t e m e n ts b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n 20 a n d g iv e n e v i d e n c e . I t is a n tic i p a t e d t h a t th is w il l n o t b e th e l a s t a p p e a r a n c e o f t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n ts b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n b u t th a t i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y a t a la t e r s ta g e t o a s k h i m a g a i n t o a p p e a r b e fo r e i t i n o r d e r t o d e a l w i t h o t h e r is s u e s . I t is p o s s ib l e t h a t a l t h o u g h w e h a v e s e t a s id e fiv e d a y s t h is w e e k fo r t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e f o r me r Pr e s id e n t i t i s p o s s i b l e Page 3 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h a t w e m ig h t n o t u s e a ll t h e f iv e d a y s . I t h a n k t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t f o r h a v i n g g iv e n t h e u n d e r ta k i n g t o a p p e a r b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s io n a n d h a v i n g a c t u a l ly a p p e a r e d a s h e d o e s t h is m o r n in g . T h o s e a r e th e r e m a r k s I w a n te d j u s t t o m a k e b e fo r e w e c a n s t a r t . M r Pr e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t i s represented by a legal team. May his counsel place himself on record a n d I u n d e r s ta n d th a t h e w is h e s to a d d r e s s y o u o n c e r t a i n m a t te r s ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u . 10 ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C h a ir p e r s o n I m a k e t h is a d d r e s s b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e r e h a s b e e n a l o t o f e x c h a n g e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e x c h a n g e d a n d t h e p r o p a g a n d a m a c h in e o u t t h e r e h a s b e e n q u i t e a liv e a n d I t h o u g h t i t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t w e p l a c e c e r ta i n t h i n g s o n r e c o r d b e c a u s e t h e – I s a id t h is o n t h e fir s t d a y o f th is c o m m i s s io n a n d t h e le t t e r s d e m o n s tr a t e s t h a t p e o p l e d o n o t b e l ie v e o u r undertaking. I s a id to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t t h e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t e s t a b lis h e d t h is c o m m i s s io n a n d is w i lli n g to c o o p e r a te . So all the speculation about … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u d i d . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Is u n tr u e . M r M a n ts h a d i d s e t o u t s o m e o f t h e p r o b l e m s th a t e m e r g e d h e r e t h e n o tic e s t h a t h e d id n o t – w e d id n o t r e c e i v e . S o I d o n o t w a n t to tr a v e r s e th a t g r o u n d . T h e g r o u n d I w a n t to tr a v e r s e s t a r ts fr o m t h e 3 0 A p r i l b e c a u s e t h e s p e c u la t io n a n d s o m e o f t h e m i s u n d e r s t a n d in g s e m e r g e fr o m t h e Page 4 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s t a r ti n g fr o m t h a t d a y fr o m th e c o m m i s s i o n . A n d th e m o s t i m p o r t a n t p a r a g r a p h s i n t h a t l e t te r o f t h e 3 0 A p r il t h is y e a r is t h a t it s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 1 [ a ] a n d [ b ] th e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t is b e i n g i n v i t e d h e r e t o p u t h is s id e o f t h e s t o r y, t o s ta t e h is s i d e o f th e s t o r y. A n d t h e s e c o n d o n e s a y s t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n w i s h e s t o a s k h i m a c o u p le o f q u e s t io n s . A n d th e s e c o n d l e t t e r t h e n fr o m t h e r e a n d I w a n t to s t a t e t h is b e c a u s e th e r e h a s b e e n a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g a b o u t w h y th e a t t o r n e y – h is a t to r n e y s w e r e e n q u ir in g . 10 Yo u w il l r e c a ll C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t in t e r m s o f y o u r r u le s – t h e r u l e s o f t h i s c o m m is s i o n 3 . 3 i n p a r ti c u l a r o n e th e r i g h ts o f t h e w i t n e s s e s o r i m p l ic a te d p e o p le is t h a t t h e y m a k e a n e le c t i o n w h e n y o u t e ll t h e m t h a t y o u b e li e v e t h e y a r e i m p l ic a te d . Th e y m a k e a n e l e c ti o n t h a t I h a v e l is t e n e d to t h is , I h a v e r e a d t h e s t a te m e n ts , I d o n o t t h i n k I a m i m p li c a t e d . A n d th e y d o s o a t t h e ir p e r i l o f c o u r s e b e c a u s e t h e y m u s t a c c e p t t h a t y o u m a y a n i n fe r e n c e . A n d t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t m a d e t h a t e l e c t io n in r e s p e c t o f a l l a n d th is w a s d o n e i n c a r e f u l c o n s i d e r a t i o n o f w h e t h e r o r n o t h e h a d b e e n i m p l ic a t e d in t h e t w o c r i m e s t h a t t h i s c o m m is s i o n is a b o u t , fr a u d 20 a n d c o r r u p ti o n . W e a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t th e o th e r o n e b e c a u s e it s e l e m e n ts a r e n o t y e t e s ta b lis h e d . T h e o n e c a l le d s t a te c a p t u r e . S o i n t h e s e c o n d l e tt e r w e r e q u e s t t h e q u e s ti o n s . Th e C h a ir p e r s o n w il l r e c a ll t h a t i n 3 . 1 0 i t s e ts o u t a n u m b e r o f w a y s in w h ic h w e c o u l d c o m e – h e c o u ld c o m e h e r e a n d w e a s k e d f o r 3 – f o r t h a t s p e c i f ic – w e m a d e t h a t r e q u e s t . W e w e r e n o t b e i n g f a c e ti o u s . I t Page 5 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 w a s a r e q u e s t b e c a u s e a s y o u w il l s e e to d a y I h a n d o v e r M r Zu m a t o y o u , t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w i t h o u t k n o w i n g w h a t h e is g o in g to s a y. N o n e o f u s i n t h i s r o o m k n o w w h i c h n a m e s h e i s g o in g t o m e n ti o n a n d w e w e r e a s k i n g t h a t q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e a n u n f a i r n e s s h a s h a p p e n e d i n th is – i n t h i s c o m m is s i o n w h e r e p e o p l e h a v e b e e n b l u r t in g n a m e s o f p e o p le c o n n e c ti n g t h e ir d o ts a b o u t p e o p l e a n d t h o s e p e o p l e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o b e n o tic e d – t o b e g i v e n n o tic e in t i m e . A n d o f c o u r s e th e r e i s s o m e i n j u s ti c e t h a t M r Zu m a m a y d o t o d a y a n d th a t is w h y w e w e r e a s k i n g fo r s p e c i f ic i t ie s s o t h a t w e c o u ld p r e p a r e h i m , w e 10 c o u l d a d v is e h i m t o g o to c e r t a i n p e o p l e a n d n o t m e n t io n n a m e s o f p e o p l e w i t h o u t y o u a s t h e c o m m is s i o n g iv i n g t h e m n o tic e . Th a t w a s n o t a p p r e c ia t e d b y M r P e d d le r o r – o n y o u r b e h a l f b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a b e li e f th a t w e w e r e d o i n g a S t a l in g r a d o r a Z u m a t a c t ic a s i t i s c a ll e d . Yo u w il l s e e t h a t th e o t h e r l e t t e r – w e h a v e a n n e x u r e s u n t il th e 24 June. C h a ir p e r s o n t h e le t t e r th a t r e a l ly, r e a lly I th i n k w e m u s t r e c o r d i t fo r y o u r a t te n ti o n a l th o u g h it is d o n e o n y o u r b e h a l f b u t I a m c e r t a i n t h a t th e s e p a r t ic u l a r w o r d s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e d i ff ic u l t f o r u s is t h e le t t e r o f t h e 7 J u n e . W e t e l l t h e – y o u r M r P e d d le r o r th e a t to r n e y te ll s h i m “ p l e a s e 20 in t e r m s o f w h ic h R u l e a r e w e c o m i n g ? ” a n d o f c o u r s e b e c a u s e h e h a s a d o p te d o r t h e r e i s a p o s i t io n t h a t t h is is n o t g e n u i n e h e t e l ls , h e s a y s : “ t h i s is d o n e in t e r m s o f n o r u l e s . ” A n d t h a t is o n e p a r t t h a t is m is s i n g o u t th e r e is t h a t w e a r e to l d b y a s ta t e – a c r e a t u r e o f s t a t u t e t h a t t h e y a r e c a ll i n g a w i tn e s s i n t e r m s o f n o r u l e s . H e s a y s i t i s a c o u r te s y. W e w r i te b e c a u s e w e s a y t h i s i s d a n g e r o u s , w e w a n t to Page 6 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 p r e p a r e h i m . W e l l t h e n e x t le t t e r is th e le t t e r o f t h e 1 2 t h i t e x p l a i n s e x a c tl y w h a t I h a v e s a id t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n . O n th e 2 0 t h t h e r e is a n o t h e r l e t t e r. T h e n o n th e 2 4 t h J u n e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w i ll s e e t h e t o n e o f M r M a n ts h a ’s le t t e r h e d o e s g iv e u p b e c a u s e h i s c l ie n t h a s g iv e n u p a n d h e s a y s : “ w e l l I w il l b r in g h i m . ” C h a ir p e r s o n I a m r a i s i n g t h i s – t h a t w a s t h e la s t l e tt e r. I a m r a i s i n g t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e i s – t h e r e is t r u ly a p a r ti c u l a r – a d is t u r b i n g a tt i tu d e t h a t o n e f i n d s i n t h e l e t t e r s a n d i t is a n a t t it u d e t h a t o n e d o e s n o t e x p e c t i n a l e g a l p r o c e s s l ik e t h is th a t is d e s i g n e d to tr e a t e a c h a n d 10 e v e r y w i tn e s s a s a w i tn e s s w h o m u s t p u t t o r ig g e r a n d w e b e l i e v e th a t h a d w e b e e n g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o – t o p r e p a r e M r Z u m a t o a d v is e h i m a b o u t p e o p l e ’s n a m e s t h a t h e m a y m e n t io n t h a t h e c a n n o t d o s o w i t h o u t t h o s e p e o p le b e i n g g i v e n n o ti c e . T h i s p r o c e s s t o d a y w o u l d b e m u c h b e t t e r. A n d s o I a m g o i n g t o h a n d h i m o v e r t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . I a m m a k i n g th e s e t h in g s b e c a u s e h e is n o t m y g u e s t t o d a y h e is y o u r s . Is t h a t I h a v e b r o u g h t h i m h e r e to y o u w it h r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t h o w h e h a s b e e n c a l le d . W i t h r e s e r v a t i o n a b o u t t h e u n fa ir n e s s th a t m a y h a p p e n t o people he may mention. 20 H e m a y m e n ti o n y o u , h e m a y m e n t i o n M r P r e t o r i u s , h e m a y m e n ti o n a ll s o r ts o f p e o p l e w e d o n o t k n o w a n d w h a t d o w e d o a b o u t t h e u n fa ir n e s s o f t h e p r o c e s s . C h a ir p e r s o n th o s e a r e th e w o r d s i n s o f a r a s th e a c r i m o n y a b o u t h is s t a n c e a b o u t t h i s c o m m i s s i o n I th i n k w e a l l k n o w t h a t t h e q u e s t io n a b o u t b ia s e d i s n o t w h e th e r it is a c tu a l b i a s i t i s w h e n t h e r e is c o n d u c t in th e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t m a k e s th e w i t n e s s fe e l s o m e r e a s o n a b l e Page 7 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a p p r e h e n s i o n t h a t h e is b i a s e d . S o I a m g o i n g t o h a n d h i m o v e r to t h i s c o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e h e is y o u r g u e s t a n d h o p e t h a t h e w i ll b e p r o t e c t e d fr o m h i m s e l f a n d t h o s e t h a t h e is g o i n g t o m e n t i o n a r e g o i n g t o b e tr e a t e d f a ir ly b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t k n o w h e i s a b o u t t o ‘ o u t’ th e m . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S ik h a k h a n e . W e ll b e f o r e y o u s i t – b e fo r e y o u s i t d o w n Mr A s y o u s a y t h e le t t e r s fr o m t h e a c ti n g s e c to r o f th e c o m m i s s io n w e r e w r i t t e n o n my b e h a l f . 10 A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t u a ll y I f u l ly a p p r o v e d e a c h o n e o f t h e m a n d – s o I ju s t w a n t t o – to m a k e t h a t c l e a r t h a t t h e w o r d s i n th e le t t e r s c a n b e t a k e n to b e m y w o r d s . B u t w e – w e a c c e p t th a t th e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t a n d h is l e g a l t e a m h a v e a c e r ta in v ie w o f t h e l e t te r s w h i c h w e h a v e a r ti c u la t e d . W e r e m a i n c o m m i t t e d to m a k in g s u r e t h a t t h is p r o c e s s is a s f a ir a s p o s s i b le . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e la s t t h i n g I w a n t t o s a y is t h a t 1 [a ] o f y o u r f ir s t l e t t e r t h e n is t h a t b e c a u s e y o u a s k e d h i m t o 20 c o m e to d o t w o th i n g s is t h a t h e h a s a s k e d m e t o a l l o w h i m t o d o 1 [ a ] o f t h a t r e q u e s t w h i c h is t o a d d r e s s y o u t o p u t h is s i d e o f t h e s t o r y a s h e s e e s it t o c o n n e c t h is o w n d o t s a n d t h a t i s w h a t h e is a b o u t t o d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s – t h a t is fi n e . W e a s k e d h i m t o c o m e a n d g iv e h i s s i d e o f th e s t o r y a n d h e w i ll b e a ll o w e d to d o t h a t . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. Page 8 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M r Pr e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t v e r y b r i e fly w e h a v e n o t h a d n o tic e o f a n y s u b s ta n ti v e a p p l ic a t i o n a n d I d o n o t b e l i e v e th e r e is a s u b s t a n t iv e a p p lic a t io n b e fo r e y o u C h a ir b u t ju s t t o c l a r i fy o n a n u m b e r o f is s u e s . T h e q u e s ti o n o f a n e l e c ti o n h a v i n g b e e n m a d e w e w i ll d e a l w i t h i n d u e c o u r s e t o t h e e x te n t t h a t it is n e c e s s a r y. T h e q u e s t io n o f w h e t h e r t h e r e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a r u le i n v o te o r w h e t h e r i t is s i m p l y a n o r d e r fo r a w i t n e s s t o b e in v i t e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n is a m a tt e r i f i t h a s 10 a n y s u b s t a n c e o r m e r i t a t a l l w il l b e a d d r e s s e d i n d u e c o u r s e . B u t o u r p o s i ti o n is c l e a r t h a t t h e r e i s a n i n v i t a ti o n , t h e in v i ta t io n h a s b e e n a c c e p te d . T h e r e c a n b e n o q u a r r e l w i t h th a t . I t s e e m s to u s h o w e v e r C h a ir t h a t t h e n u b o f t h e c o m p l a i n t r a i s e d b y Mr S ik h a k h a n e i n h is a d d r e s s to y o u C h a i r is t h a t f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a is g o i n g t o q u o t e , u n q u o t e ‘ o u t’ c e r t a i n p e o p l e . H e h a s n o t h a d a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o g i v e n o tic e t o t h o s e p e o p le b e c a u s e o f th e p r o c e d u r e s t h a t h a v e p r o c e e d e d t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t ’s h e a r i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e u n fa ir n e s s m a y r e s u lt . I a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d t h e lo g ic o f th a t i n a n y m a n n e r a t 20 a l l C h a ir. I f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ’s i n te n ti o n h e r e t o d a y is t o i m p l ic a te c e r t a i n p a r ti e s u n d e r w h a t e v e r c l a u s e o f o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e t h e n t h a t is h is p r e r o g a t iv e . B u t t o s a y i t i s u n fa ir b e c a u s e h e is b e in g p r e v e n t e d fr o m g i v i n g n o t ic e is s i m p l y il l o g ic a l. W e d o n o t k n o w a s a le g a l t e a m . T h e s e c r e t a r i a t d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t h e is g o i n g to s a y o r w h o h e i s g o i n g t o i m p li c a t e . H o w t h a t p r o b l e m c o u l d b e s o lv e d s i m p ly Page 9 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 b y g i v i n g q u e s t io n s o f m a t t e r s t h a t w e d o k n o w t o t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t e s c a p e s u s C h a ir. Q u it e s i m p ly i t h a s a l w a y s b e e n o p e n i f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t a n d h is l e g a l t e a m w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th is p a r ti c u la r i s s u e a n d f a i r n e s s i n r e la t io n t o t h i s p a r t ic u l a r is s u e t o h a v e g iv e n s u c h n o t ic e . A n d t o s a y w e a r e g o in g t o i m p lic a t e . To e x p e c t u s s o m e h o w t h r o u g h q u e s t i o n s o f m a tt e r s w e h a v e no knowledge of to foreshadow or foretell what is going to be said does n o t b e a r s c r u ti n y C h a ir. S o th a t c o m p l a i n t c a n n o t b e a c c e p t e d b y u s c e r t a i n l y C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Thank you. Mr S ik h a k h a n e d o y o u w a n t to r e s p o n d ? O k a y. L e t M r S ik h a k h a n e r e s p o n d t o th a t b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d . P l e a s e s w i tc h o n t h e m ic r o p h o n e . ADV MUZI S I K H A K H A N E: Now that c o n d e s c e n s i o n l e t m e d e a l w i t h i t n o w. w a n t e d t o g iv e n o ti c e t o a n y b o d y. he has started on his Fi r s t I d i d n o t s a y M r Z u m a I s a i d a n i n ju s t ic e c a n h a p p e n b e c a u s e w e w o u l d h a v e l ik e d t o p r e p a r e h i m , r i g h t. S o e v e r y t h i n g h e is s a y in g th a t I w a s – it i s a c o m – i t is fa l s e . I s i m p ly w a s r a is i n g th e is s u e th a t w e a r e r u n n i n g a p r o c e s s , a tr u th fi n d i n g p r o c e s s a n d i f w e d o n o t r u n i t f a i r ly a l l o f u s w e r u n t h e r is k . 20 I d id n o t s a y h e – h e s h o u l d h a v e g i v e n p e o p l e n o tic e . T h e p r o b l e m is t h is a t ti t u d e e x a c t ly o f t h i s c o m m i s s i o n is t h a t p e o p le b r i n g t h e ir v ie w s o u t s i d e a n d tr e a t c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s a s s w e e t h e a r ts a n d o th e r s a s a c c u s e d . I a m s a y i n g i t is i m p o r t a n t th a t e v e r y b o d y w h o c o m e s h e r e g e ts t h e s a m e r i g g e r a n d t h e s a m e q u e s t i o n in g . P e o p le m u s t n o t b r in g th e i r o w n i d e a s o u t t h e r e a n d I t h i n k M r Pr e t o r i u s is d o i n g e x a c t ly t h a t . I w a s a r t ic u l a ti n g to y o u Page 10 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 C h a ir p e r s o n t h e d a n g e r s t h a t w e s a w a n d t h a t is w h y w e k e p t a s k i n g . A n d I d o n o t th in k I w a s in v i ti n g h is c o n d e s c e n s i o n b e c a u s e h e d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I w a s s a y i n g . H e t r u ly d i d n o t a n d th is i s t h e p r o b le m w e h a v e b e e n s p e a k in g p a s t e a c h o t h e r a n d I a m r a is i n g t h is b e c a u s e h e d o e s n o t h a v e to in t e r p r e t w h a t I a m s a y in g . I f h e d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d m e h e m u s t s a y s o . I t i s t h i s a tt i tu d e t h a t I th i n k is m a k i n g your process … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u S ik h a k h a n e . May I request that there be n o c l a p p in g o f h a n d s p l e a s e ? T h a n k y o u M r Pr e to r i u s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I w il l n o t r e s p o n d . W e w i ll tr y a n d m a in t a i n a c o ll e g i a l i ty a n d a d i g n i ty i n th e s e proceedings. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u a r e r e a d y to s t a r t? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Mr Z u m a w e w i ll n e e d t o d o a n o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n . M a y I a s k y o u to s w i tc h o n y o u r m i c r o p h o n e i n fr o n t o f y o u ? W h i c h o n e w o u ld y o u p r e f e r a n o a th o r a ff i r ma t io n ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I d o n o t k n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h i n k s h e m u s t g o a n d h e l p y o u a c tu a l ly. G o a n d 20 h e l p h i m . I t is o n . O h I a m t o l d t h a t m i c r o p h o n e is o n . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s i t i s o n n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. W h ic h o n e w i ll i t b e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Oath. CHAIRPERSON: Oath thank you. M a y b e if y o u c o u l d s t a n d . Page 11 of 101 W o u ld 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 y o u p le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d ? MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA: I a m J a c o b G e d l e y ih le k i s a Zuma. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r ib e d oath? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u c o n s id e r t h e o a t h b i n d i n g o n y o u r c o n s c i e n c e ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u a r e g o i n g t o g iv e 10 w i ll b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g e ls e b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: So help me God. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much you may be seated. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k M r Pr e t o r i u s w e w i ll s t a r t w i t h t h e p a r t t h a t M r S ik h a k h a n e i n d ic a te d t h a t M r Z u m a w o u ld l ik e t o s t a r t w it h . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Th a n k y o u . M r Z u m a I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m y o u r c o u n s e l t h a t b e f o r e a n y q u e s ti o n s c a n b e p u t t o y o u y o u w o u l d lik e t o 20 s t a te y o u r – y o u h a v e – y o u w o u l d li k e to s t a te y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y o r t o a d d r e s s m e o n c e r t a i n a s p e c ts o r to i n d ic a t e w h a t y o u w o u l d lik e t o s a y o n v a r i o u s is s u e s . T h is is th e o p p o r t u n i ty t h a t I a m g i v i n g y o u t o d o s o b e f o r e a n y q u e s ti o n s c a n b e p u t t o y o u . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Page 12 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Mr Zuma you may use the m ic r o p h o n e w i th t h e r e d l ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n o t u s e t h a t o n e . J a u s e th e r e d o n e j a t h a n k y o u . Thank you. MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. C h a ir p e r s o n a n d o f c o u r s e t h e e n tir e c o m m i s s io n f ir s t ly C h a ir I h a v e g o t s o m e fl u s o m y v o ic e i s u p a n d d o w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I h a d f l u f r o m T h u r s d a y s o – b u t I t h i n k I a m f in e n o w. 10 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . C h a ir y o u w i ll r e a lis e t h a t m e a s a n i n d iv id u a l I h a v e b e e n a s u b j e c t o f t a l k in t h is c o u n tr y f o r more than a decade. I h a v e b e e n v il i fi e d a l le g e d t o b e – b e k i n g o f c o r r u p t p e o p l e . I a m t h e m o s t c o r r u p t . I h a v e b e e n g i v e n e v e r y o th e r n a m e a n d I h a d n e v e r r e s p o n d e d to t h o s e i s s u e s . Fi r s tl y b e c a u s e I b e l ie v e i t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t w e a ll r e s p e c t o n e a n o t h e r. T h a t w e m u s t s a y t h in g s w e k n o w a b o u t o th e r p e o p le n o t ju s t t e ll t h i n g s th a t w e c a n n o t p r o v e . T h i s h a s b e e n m y n a t u r e a s I g r e w u p a n d I jo i n e d th e A N C in m y e a r ly a g e i n a d d it i o n t o th e te a c h in g s fr o m m y o w n h o m e s te a d a n d 20 m y p a r e n t s I a l s o g o t t a u g h t i n th e A N C t o b e h a v e i n a p a r tic u la r w a y. A n d I h a v e p a i d f o r m y a c ti v i ti e s in t h e A N C i n c lu d in g g o in g t o p r i s o n s e r v i n g a te r m o f t e n y e a r s . A t s o m e p o in t I h a d to le a v e m y c o u n tr y t o g o o u t a n d i n th e p r o c e s s t h e A N C g a v e m e d i ff e r e n t r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a t a l l m a t e r i a l ti m e s t h a t I h a v e b e e n a c t iv e a n d p a r t ic ip a ti n g . Th e n fi n d i n g m y s e l f f in a l ly i n t h e l e a d e r s h ip o f th e A N C . Page 13 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 T h e r e a s o n w h y I a m s t a r ti n g h e r e C h a ir i s b e c a u s e w h e n t h is c o m m i s s io n w a s p r o p o s e d t o a l l a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s m a d e th a t I s h o u l d e s t a b l is h a c o m m is s i o n b y t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r, t h e p r e v i o u s o n e . T h e r e a r e c e r t a in is s u e s t h a t I w a s n o t h a p p y th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e y w e r e h a n d l e d a n d o f c o u r s e t h e C o m m i s s io n w a s to d e a l w i t h a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t b u t a s I w ill i n d i c a t e p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m h e r e t h a t i s t h e b a c k g r o u n d I a m g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h w h y I f i n d m y s e l f s it t in g here to d a y and where it comes fr o m p a r t ic u l a r l y because t h is C o m m i s s i o n f r o m m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s r e a l ly c r e a t e d t o h a v e m e 10 c o m e h e r e a n d p e r h a p s to f in d th i n g s o n m e . I w i ll d e a l w i th h o w it w a s c o n c e iv e d a n d t h e r e f o r e I m a d e t h e C o m m i s s i o n a s – a s t o w h a t i t is . Because the ANC gave me tasks p e r h a p s I h a d to k n o w t h i n g s th a t o t h e r p e o p l e m ig h t n o t h a v e k n o w n a n d t h e q u e s ti o n h o w w o u l d I h a n d l e t h o s e a n d I w a s ta u g h t h o w t o h a n d l e t h e m . T h a t i s w h y i n t h e b a c k g r o u n d th a t I a m g o in g to g i v e I w i ll s ta n d o n t h i s p o i n t I a m m a k i n g – ( c l e a r i n g th r o a t) I a m s o r r y. ( Ta lk in g i n Z u l u ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s Zu l u f o r s a y in g : “ T h e f lu is p r e v e n t in g h i m fr o m s p e a k i n g . ” 20 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: T h e r e h a s b e e n a d r iv e t o r e m o v e m e fr o m t h e s c e n e . A w i s h t h a t I s h o u ld d i s a p p e a r a n d I w il l e x p l a i n w h e r e it c o m e s fr o m a n d w h y p e r h a p s i t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t I d e a l w i t h i n t h i s C o m m i s s i o n a n d i t a r is e s o u t o f p e r h a p s m y w o r k i n t h e A N C a n d a ls o b e c a u s e o f w h o I a m . T h i s c o n s p ir a c y a g a i n s t m e h a s b e e n s tr e tc h e d a t a ll m a t e r ia l ti m e s w h e n t h e r e a r e th i n g s t o b e d o n e o r Page 14 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 said. I t h a s c o m e i n d i ff e r e n t fo r ms a n d t h a t i s w h y t h e r e a r e e v e n p e o p l e w h o s a y I h a v e g o t a w a y o f tr y i n g t o d o d g e t h i n g s in o n e f o r m o r t h e o t h e r a n d I a m g o in g to c o n n e c t th e d o ts o v e r a d e c a d e th a t t a lk t o th is p o i n t a n d ta lk t o w h y I a m h e r e . A s y o u k n o w i n 1 9 9 0 t h e A N C was unbanned and I was one of those who was sent ahead of everyone t o m a k e c o n ta c t w i th t h e t h e n G o v e r n m e n t t o s t u d y t h e p r o c e s s o f fi n d i n g a s o l u ti o n i n th is c o u n tr y. P e o p l e r e fe r r e d t o i t a s t a lk s a b o u t t a lk s . I t h e n b e c a m e p a r t 10 o f t h e n e g o ti a ti n g t e a m a n d w e fi n a l ly r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e t h o s e w h o w e r e i n p r is o n w e r e o u t . Th o s e w h o w e r e i n e x il e c a m e b a c k . A t th a t ti m e m y s p e c i fi c t a s k a m o n g m a n y w a s t o b e t h e C h ie f o f In t e l li g e n c e o f t h e A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s . le a d e r s h i p at that very I n o t h e r w o r d s I w a s p a r t o f th e s e n s i ti v e area with my late comrade J o h n ( i n d is ti n c t) . L e a v i n g m a n y th i n g s j u s t t o g o to t h e p o i n t s tr a i g h t i n 1 9 9 0 w h e n w e w e r e a l r e a d y i n s id e t h e c o u n tr y I r e c e iv e d a r e p o r t – a n in t e l li g e n c e r e p o r t – w h ic h w a s s a y i n g t h e r e w e r e th r e e i n t e ll ig e n c e o r g a n i s a t io n s t h a t m e t h a d a m e e ti n g t o d is c u s s m e a n d h a d a p l a n t o 20 b e g in in 1 9 9 0 a p r o c e s s o f c h a r a c t e r a s s a s s in a t io n o f Z u m a . Tw o o f t h e s e o r g a n is a ti o n s c a m e fr o m t w o d i ff e r e n t b ig c o u n tr ie s a n d o n e o f t h e m c a m e fr o m i n s id e S o u t h A fr i c a u n d e r – w h ic h w a s o n e o f t h e – s tr u c t u r e s u n d e r a p a r t h e id w h i c h w a s p a r t o f t h i s c o n s p ir a c y. W h e n I r e c e iv e d t h i s r e p o r t , h a d a d is c u s s i o n w it h m y c o l l e a g u e ( in d i s ti n c t) . W e d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t h e r e a s o n is . Page 15 of 101 We are 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 v e r y k e e n t o h e a r w h y Z u m a ’s c h a r a c te r m u s t b e a s s a s s i n a t e d . I th e n u s e d t h e k n o w le d g e w e h a d t o a s k t h is q u e s ti o n a n d g e t a n a n s w e r b u t t o t h o s e w h o w o u l d b e r e c e i v i n g t h e q u e s ti o n a n d g iv e a n a n s w e r t h e y s h o u l d n o t k n o w t h a t t h is q u e s t io n c o m e s fr o m m e b e c a u s e w e h a d p e o p l e i n th e i n t e l li g e n c e h a d l o ts o f n e t w o r k in g s a n d n e t w o r k s a s w e l l a s p e o p l e d e a l in g w i t h d i ffe r e n t t h in g s . So we sent the question. came back. A f t e r a b r ie f p e r io d t h e a n s w e r Th e a n s w e r w a s th e r e a s o n w h y w e w a n t e d t o c h a r a c t e r a s s a s s i n a t e Z u m a ’s c h a r a c t e r w a s b e c a u s e h e h a s a l o t o f i n f o r m a ti o n 10 t h a t h e – h e h o l d s a m o n g th e t y p e o f i n f o r m a ti o n a s – a s a C h ie f o f I n t e lli g e n c e . T h e r e a r e s p ie s t h a t a r e i n fi lt r a t e d b y u s in h i s o r g a n i s a t io n w h o m w e w a n t t o n u r tu r e t h a t t h e y g r o w w i t h i n t h e s tr u c t u r e s o f t h e A N C to a p o in t t h a t a t s o m e p o i n t t h e y w i ll h a v e t o le a d t h e A N C . N o w Z u m a h a s in f o r m a t io n a b o u t th e s e . We do not know w h e n w i ll h e u s e t h is i n f o r m a t io n t o s t o p t h a t p r o c e s s th a t p l a n o f th e ir s a n d th e r e f o r e t h e y to o k a d e c is io n th a t Z u m a m u s t b e r e m o v e d fr o m d e c is i o n m a k i n g s tr u c t u r e s o f t h e A N C a n d th a t i s w h y t h e y c h a r a c t e r a s s a s s i n a t i o n b e g a n . T h a t is t h e b e g in n in g o f t h e p r o c e s s t h a t h a s p u t 20 m e w h e r e I a m t o d a y a n d – a n d I t h o u g h t i t is i m p o r ta n t t o g o th r o u g h t h is w h a te v e r e ls e w o u l d b e th e e n d o f y o u r p r o c e s s b u t a t l e a s t s o m e tr u th s h o u l d b e k n o w n . W e h a n d l e d th is v e r y, v e r y d e lic a t e ly th o s e w h o w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h i n t e ll ig e n c e b u t w e a r e n o w w h e r e . c o n fe r e n c e i n 1 9 9 0 o f t h e A N C . Th e r e w a s g o in g to b e a I t w a s a c o n s u l t a tiv e c o n fe r e n c e n o t Page 16 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 e l e c ti v e c o n f e r e n c e b u t th e s e t h r e e o r g a n i s a ti o n s t h o u g h t t h a t i t w a s a n e l e c ti v e c o n f e r e n c e . Th a t is w h y th e y w e r e e n g a g i n g i n th is p l a n a n d t h is c o n s p i r a c y. T h e n t h e A N C i n th e c o u r s e o f th e p e r i o d w a s e x p l a i n i n g th a t w a s a c o n s u l te d . S o t h e y r e a l is e d t h e y m a d e a m is ta k e b y th in k i n g i t w a s e le c t iv e . S o i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e s a m e y e a r I r e c e iv e d a n o t h e r r e p o r t . W e s a i d t h a t t h e y h a v e p o s tp o n e d t h i s c a m p a i g n b e c a u s e t h e y r e a l is e d th is w a s n o t a n e l e c ti v e c o n fe r e n c e . S o w e k e p t q u i e t b u t th e A N C o f c o u r s e h a d th a t c o n f e r e n c e a n d o n e o f th e r e s o l u ti o n s o f th e 10 A N C w a s th a t d u r i n g 1 9 9 1 i t w ill h a v e i t s fir s t e l e c t iv e c o n fe r e n c e – i n D e c e m b e r 1 9 9 1 a n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t w a s i n f o r m a ti o n o u t th e r e . I n 1 9 9 1 a n o t h e r i n t e ll ig e n c e in f o r m a t io n c a m e t h a t s a id th a t t h e s e th r e e o r g a n is a ti o n s h a v e d e c i d e d t o c h a n g e t h e ir p l a n s li g h t ly b e c a u s e h a v i n g i n v e s ti g a te d f u r th e r in t h e A N C t h e y d is c o v e r e d th a t t h is Z u m a h a d a v e r y l a r g e s u p p o r t i n t h e A N C a n d 1 0 0 p e r c e n t s u p p o r t in t h e Pr o v in c e o f N a ta l . It would not therefore be easy to remove Z u m a i n th e c o n f e r e n c e t h a t is c o m i n g . T h e ti m e i s to o s h o r t to c h a r a c t e r a s s a s s i n a t e h i m t o a p o i n t t h a t y o u c o u ld r e m o v e h i m . W h a t th e r e fo r e t h e y t h o u g h t w a s i m p o r t a n t 20 f o r th e m w a s to - b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d y o u c a n n o t r e m o v e h i m fr o m t h e N a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e f o r e x a m p l e – t h e d e c i s io n m a k i n g s tr u c t u r e . W h a t t h e r e f o r e w e s h o u ld d o w h ic h w a s a f a l l b a c k p la n t h a t a f t e r t h e e l e c ti v e c o n f e r e n c e o f 1 9 9 1 Z u m a m u s t b e r e m o v e d f r o m t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h i e f o f I n t e l li g e n c e a n d a g a i n w e lo o k e d a t th is a n d s a i d t h e r e – t h e r e w e r e w o r r y in g t h i n g s . Page 17 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 F o r e x a m p l e th e is s u e o f th e – th e p e o p l e w e w e r e a b o u t to n e g o ti a te w i t h . What was the thinking that they may not know our t h i n k i n g a n d w e m ig h t n o t k n o w a ls o t h e ir o w n t h i n k in g b u t w h a t d o e s t h is m e a n ? S o a s w e w e r e p r e p a r i n g f o r th e c o n f e r e n c e it w a s c l e a r t h a t t h is f ir s t c o n f e r e n c e w a s o f g r e a t in t e r e s t n o t o n l y t o S o u t h A fr ic a e v e n fo r o th e r c o u n tr ie s o u t t h e r e b u t t h is i n f o r m a ti o n w a s – w a s w o r r y in g . I n f a c t I t h in k t h e r e w a s o n e ( i n d is t in c t ) w h ic h w a s a s a r e s u l t o f th a t b u t i t e n d e d b e c a u s e t h e y r e a li s e d t h e r e w e r e n o fu r t h e r t h i n g s 10 t h e y c o u ld d o . I a m s a y i n g t h i s b e c a u s e t h e r e h a s b e e n a p r o c e s s a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly a g a in s t J a c o b Z u m a a c o n s p ir a c y. I a m s i t ti n g t h e r e a n d I a m to ld b y o t h e r o r g a n i s a t io n s th a t i n m y o r g a n i s a t io n a s w e l l a s i n t h e N E C t h e r e a r e p e o p le w h o a r e w o r k in g f o r t h e m w h o m t h e y w a n t t o b e in c o n tr o l o f t h is c o u n tr y. I t w a s a w o r r y i n g p o i n t . L e a v i n g a s i d e t h e i n fo r m a t i o n I h a d t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n in f o r m a ti o n I d i d n o t h a v e a n d p e r h a p s i m p o r t a n t to t r y t o f o l lo w t h i s v e r y c l o s e l y. came. Of course the conference I n th a t c o n fe r e n c e I w a s e l e c te d D e p u ty S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l o f t h e A N C a n d o f c o u r s e Ta m b o m o v e d o u t a n d Ta t a M a d i b a c a m e in a s a 20 President. T h e r e w e r e t w o d e c is i o n s t a k e n b y th e o r g a n is a ti o n t h a t P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la a n d T h o m a s N k o b i w h o w a s t h e Tr e a s u r e r - G e n e r a l a ft e r th e c o n f e r e n c e t h e y w o u l d g o t o t h e U n i te d S t a te s t o r a is e f u n d s . A n o th e r d e c i s i o n t h a t T h a b o M b e k i a n d J a c o b Z u m a s h o r tl y a f t e r c o n fe r e n c e t h e y w i ll g o t o a t t e n d t h e c o n f e r e n c e i n U K w h ic h w a s Page 18 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 d is c u s s e d i n c o n s ti t u ti o n a l m a t t e r s a n d i n d e e d a f te r a ll o f t h a t w h e n th e N E C – w h e n t h e N E C h a s b e e n e l e c te d b y c o n f e r e n c e t h e n th e N E C e l e c ts t h e w o r k in g c o m m i t t e e w h i c h r u n s t h e m a t t e r s in b e tw e e n N E C – NEC meetings. S o w e l e f t t o o u r ta s k s . O n e d a y a s w e fi n is h e d a c o n f e r e n c e a n d g o i n g f o r s u p p e r I r u s h e d t o m y r o o m t o l is t e n to th e B B C f o r e c a s t o n A fr ic a . W e w e r e a li t tl e b i t a d d ic t e d t o i t b e c a u s e o u t t h e r e w e d i d n o t l is t e n to a ll t h e – t h e m e d i a fr o m h o m e . Among the reports that w e r e g i v e n b y t h e B B C w a s th e r e p o r t o f th e m e e ti n g o f t h e w o r k i n g 10 c o m m i t t e e o f th e A N C w h i c h h a d m e t f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e a n d th e r e w e r e t w o d e c i s i o n s a m o n g m a n y th a t w e r e ta k e n . One was that Thabo Mbeki was remo ved as th e C h ie f N e g o ti a to r o f t h e A N C a n d J a c o b Zu m a h a s b e e n r e m o v e d a s t h e C h i e f o f In t e l li g e n c e . When I – I was going down I met Comrade Thabo. I s a i d m a n t h e ir d e c i s i o n s t h a t th e y h a v e ta k e n y o u a r e n o lo n g e r le a d i n g u s o n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d h e w a s s h o c k e d b u t I s a id n o t h a t i s n o t th e o n ly o n e . I h a v e a ls o b e e n r e m o v e d a s t h e C h ie f o f I n te ll ig e n c e . He w a s e v e n m o r e s h o c k e d k n o w i n g h o w t h e A N C d e a l w i th t h i n g s 20 p a r t ic u l a r ly th a t y o u c a n n o t t a k e s u c h a d e c i s i o n w h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n is n o t t h e r e . W h y ; b u t t o m e a n d I s a i d t o h i m y o u d id n o t k n o w. M e , I k n e w t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o b e r e m o v e d b u t I d id n o t k n o w h o w. T h e q u e s t io n t h a t I w a s a s k i n g m y s e lf I r e c e iv e d i n f o r m a t io n fr o m i n t e l li g e n c e s o u r c e s th a t a f t e r t h e c o n f e r e n c e I w o u l d b e n o t th e Page 19 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 C h i e f o f I n te ll i g e n c e . Th is is s u p p o s e d to h a v e b e e n p l a n n e d b y t h e s e t h r e e o r g a n i s a t io n s . W h y is i t i m p l e m e n t e d b y m y n a t io n a l – m y n a t io n a l w o r k in g c o m m i t t e e ? W h a t d o e s t h is m e a n ? It therefore was c o n fir m i n g t h a t t h e r e m a y b e s p i e s h e r e b e c a u s e i t m e a n s th e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h e n t h e s e i n t e l li g e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n s t o o k th e d e c is io n t h a t t h e y d ir e c te d th a t th e y m u s t m a k e t h i s h a p p e n . Of course thereafter we – we wept and we did not even at t h a t t i m e t a k e t h is m a t t e r a s a g e n e r a l r e p o r t in th e A N C . W e k e p t i t a s a n i n te ll i g e n c e is s u e b u t i t is i m p o r t a n t to s a y t h is b e c a u s e th e 10 c h a r a c te r a s s a s s i n a t io n t h a t I f a c e d o v e r t h e y e a r s m o r e t h a n 2 0 y e a r s t h is i s o n e o f t h e c le a r s o u r c e s th a t I k n o w. T h e r e w a s a p la n t o d e a l w i t h Zu m a a n d Z u m a h a s b e e n d e a l t w i th a ll th e ti m e . I n o t h e r w o r d s f o r e i g n in t e l li g e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n s a n d t h e l o c a l o n e o f c o u r s e u n d e r a p a r th e id f o r a v a r i e ty o f r e a s o n s t h o u g h t i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t o d e a l w it h t h is m a n . I t is i m p o r t a n t fo r m e t o s t a t e t h a t a n y th in g t h a t h a p p e n e d s in c e t h a t t i m e . I h a v e b e e n li n k in g t h e d o t s a ll t h e t i m e s a n d I t h o u g h t i t is i m p o r ta n t t o t h i s C o m m i s s i o n p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n i s I w il l c o m e t o t h a t th is – t h e m a t t e r o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n is n o t d i ff e r e n t fr o m o r th e p l a n n o t t h e C o m m i s s i o n a s y e t . 20 T h o s e w h o – w h o i n i t ia t e d t h a t t h e r e m u s t b e a C o m m i s s io n . Yo u r e c a l l th a t w h e n I w a s n o t a t th e n a t io n a l le v e l I w a s i n t h e p r o v i n c e s u d d e n ly I h a d t o b e c h a r g e d . B e fo r e c h a r g e d – b e f o r e b e in g c h a r g e d I w a s r e m o v e d a s a D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y – 2 0 0 5 – b e c a u s e I w a s i m p li c a t e d i n t h e a r ms d e a l . B e a r i n m i n d t h a t I w a s n o t in t h e n a t i o n a l . Page 20 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 I w a s n o t p a r t o f th e p r o c e s s e s . I w a s i n t h e p r o v i n c e a n d i t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e t o m e . O f a l l t h e p e o p l e w h o d e a l t w i th t h e a r m s d e a l n o t a s i n g l e o n e w a s e v e r o r t h e r e w e r e e v e r a ll e g a t io n s a g a i n s t b u t th e a ll e g a t io n s a g a i n s t m e . I h a d to b e i n v e s ti g a t e d . In a v e r y s tr a n g e w a y e v e n t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n I h a d t o b e i n v e s t ig a te d b y th e S c o r p io n s . A t a g i v e n t i m e th e H e a d o f th e N PA a n d t h e M i n is te r h a d a p r e s s c o n f e r e n c e w h e r e i n i t w a s a n n o u n c e d y e s th e r e is i n o u r in v e s t i g a t io n t h e r e is a p r i m a f a c ie c a s e a g a i n s t Z u m a b u t i t is 10 u n w in n a b l e in c o u r t . S o t h a t is w h y w e a r e n o t c h a r g in g h i m . Now t h e r e a r e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . I h a v e n e v e r h a d t h a t k in d o f l e v e l o f in v e s ti g a t io n b e i n g r e p o r t e d i n t h e m e d ia . W h y i t w a s r e p o r te d in t h e m e d ia f o r m e ? Th e r e a r e s o m a n y cases. C l e a r ly t h a t i n d ic a t e d t h e b e g i n n in g o f th e i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f t h is p a r tic u la r p la n a n d th e c o n s p ir a c y. I h a d ti m e a t s o m e p o in t t o a s k N g c u k a w h y d id y o u n o t te ll m e y o u a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g m e a n d w h a t is t h a t y o u a r e i n v e s ti g a t i n g . t o l d b y th e M i n is t e r s . N g c u k a s a i d n o y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e F in e I th i n k th a t w a s a f a i r p o i n t , b u t h e s a y s there is no case against you. 20 There are just a few letters written by Shabir where he m e n ti o n s y o u r n a m e a s p e o p l e a lw a y s d r o p n a m e s b u t th e w e e k t h e r e a f te r I w a s c a ll e d b y t w o l e a d i n g p e o p l e i n G o v e r n m e n t a n d i n t h e A N C w h o s a i d m a n th e r e h a s b e e n a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n a g a in s t y o u a n d i t h a s c o m e t o a p o i n t w h e r e w e m u s t ta k e a d e c is io n w h e t h e r t o c o n t in u e in v e s t i g a t in g y o u o r n o t b u t t h is m a t t e r n e e d s to b e d is c u s s e d t o fi n d a Page 21 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 s o l u ti o n a n d I s a i d w h a t s o l u ti o n a n d a t t h e e n d I s a i d a f t e r w h a t e v e r t h e y s a i d I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e t h e m a n w h o is i n v e s ti g a ti n g j u s t a w e e k a g o to ld m e I h a v e g o t n o c a s e . Yo u a r e t e ll in g m e h e r e th a t y o u h a v e a c a s e . I do not u n d e r s t a n d . I th i n k t h a t d e s t a b i lis e d t h a t m e e ti n g b u t o f c o u r s e a r o u n d t h e s a m e ti m e t h e r e w a s i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t I a m g o i n g t o b e t a lk e d t o s o t h a t I r e s ig n fr o m t h e l e a d e r s h i p a n d g o to N k a n d la a n d I w il l b e l o o k e d a ft e r. Just resign. There was a rum our that I would be given s o m e t h i n g l ik e 2 0 m il li o n a n d I w i ll b e m a in t a i n e d o r if I r e s ig n t h i s 10 c a s e w e w il l th e n h a v e a w a y to s o lv e th is c a s e a n d I w a s s a y i n g to m y s e l f h m t h a t p l a n is n o w b e i n g i m p l e m e n t e d . T h e s e p e o p l e d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t I k n o w s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e p la n b e c a u s e m y s e lf a n d J o h n ( i n d is t in c t) w e d i d n o t r e p o r t i t t o t h e e n ti r e n a t io n , i t r e m a i n e d i n t h e c o r r i d o r s o f I n t e ll ig e n c e . S o th e i s s u e o f Zu m a m u s t r e s i g n , Z u m a m u s t le a v e th e le a d e r s h i p s ta r t e d w a y b a c k , a s p a r t o f th is p la n . O f c o u r s e I d id n o t r e s ig n b e c a u s e n o b o d y, a t th a t p o i n t s a id it o u t a n d o u t a n d th e r e w a s in t h e c o r r i d o r s . T h a t w a s f o ll o w e d b y th e n , th e d e c is io n t o r e m o v e m e a s D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t b y t h e P r e s i d e n t o f th e c o u n tr y a n d o f c o u r s e I d i d 20 m o v e a w a y, I m a d e i t v e r y c le a r t h a t a s a ( in d i s t i n c t) o f t h e A N C I’ m n o t g o i n g t o a r g u e , I ’ m n o t g o i n g to – th e P r e s i d e n t h a s t h e r i g h t t o t a k e e tc e t e r a , s o I g o t o u t . I w a s a ls o – b u t s h o r tl y t h e r e a f te r i n te r m s o f t h e A N C a c t iv it i e s , I w a s b r o u g h t b a c k b y t h e m e m b e r s h i p o f t h e A N C i n a N G C t h a t w a s i n Pr e t o r i a , s o w e c o n ti n u e d . T h e n w e w e r e a ls o a p p r o a c h i n g a n o th e r c o n fe r e n c e w h ic h w a s i n P o l o k w a n e , w h e r e t h e r e Page 22 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 was, as usual, as normal contestations people h a v in g d i ff e r e n t p r e f e r e n c e s e tc e te r a a n d I’ m s u r e a s a ( in d is ti n c t) t h a t i s k n o w n b y m a n y p e o p l e t h a t ’s w h e r e I b e c a m e t h e P r e s id e n t b u t th e r e w e r e a l o t o f a c t iv i t ie s g o i n g o n a t t h e t i m e a n d d is c u s s i o n s a b o u t m e i n p a r t ic u l a r. L a te r o n I g o t t o k n o w, t h a t i n fa c t , t h e r e w a s a d e t e r m i n a t io n t o a r r e s t m e b e f o r e th e c o n f e r e n c e i n o r d e r t o a v o i d m e being part of that conference. I t h i n k s u c h f a c ts h a v e c o m e t o li g h t p a r t ic u l a r ly a r o u n d t h e c a s e th a t I’ m p l a c i n g i n C o u r t in w h a t i s c a l le d t h e Z u m a t a p e s w h e r e in p o l ic e , p o li t ic i a n s , le a d e r s o f th e c o u n tr y w e r e 10 t a lk in g a b o u t m e , t h a t I m u s t b e a r r e s t e d . T h a t i n f o r m a t io n w a s f e e d in g in t o t h is fu n d a m e n t a l i n t e lli g e n c e o r g a n is a t io n ’s p l a n to d e a l w i th Zuma. O f c o u r s e , p e r h a p s i t ’s a l o n g s t o r y to s a y w h a t a r e t h e is s u e s , w h y Z u m a m u s t b e d e a l t w i th i n t h is f a s h i o n , I ’ m s u r e i t ’s o b v i o u s . W e p r o c e e d e d in o u r l i fe a n d w o r k in g in t h e G o v e r n m e n t a n d o r g a n is a ti o n w h e n I w a s – w h e n I w a s b e i n g d i s m is s e d i n a s t a te m e n t i n P a r l ia m e n t t h e P r e s i d e n t s a y s Z u m a m u s t h a v e h is d a y i n C o u r t a n d I h a d n ’ t b e e n charged by then. I t w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e I h e a r, I m u s t h a v e m y d a y in C o u r t b u t y o u w il l a l s o r e m e m b e r t h i s , I w a s in v e s ti g a t e d t h e r e w a s a 20 lo t o f h u ll a b a ll o o th o s e w h o w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g fi n a ll y fe l t th e y ’v e r e a c h e d a s t a g e t o c h a r g e , t h e y ’ v e d e c id e d n o t t o c h a r g e m e b u t c h a r g e S h a b ir S h a i k b u t th e a c c u s a t io n w a s t h a t w e c o m m i t t e d c r i m e w i t h h i m b u t n o t c h a r g e d t o g e t h e r c h a r g e d s e p a r a te . A s I g o t t o k n o w la t e r – b e c a u s e th e y w a n t e d S h a b ir t o b e c o n v ic te d in o r d e r to c h a r g e m e a n d t h a t ’s w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o i n a s e n s e p r o l o n g in g t h e n a r r a tiv e Page 23 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a b o u t Zu m a is c o r r u p t. Yo u ’ ll a ls o r e c a l l t h a t w h e n J u d g e S q u ir e s c o n v i c te d S h a b ir, t h e r e a f t e r t h e r e w a s a lo t o f t a l k a b o u t t h a t p e o p l e s a y in g t h e J u d g e s a i d b e t w e e n S h a b ir a n d Z u m a th e r e h a s b e e n a g e n e r a l ly corrupt r e l a ti o n s h i p , that r e l a ti o n s h i p was a corrupt r e l a ti o n s h i p . T h e m e d i a , p o l i tic i a n s , a c a d e m ic s w i ll a l l t a lk a b o u t t h is , t h i s Z u m a w h e r e th is g e n e r a lly c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h S h a b ir. This was a l l o v e r th e w o r l d u n ti l th e J u d g e t h o u g h t t h is w a s u n fa ir t o h i m n o w because he had never said so and asked people to read his judgment 10 b e c a u s e h e n e v e r s a i d t h e r e w a s a g e n e r a l ly c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e s e t w o i n d i v i d u a ls b u t e v e r y b o d y h a d b e e n s a y i n g t h i s , w h e r e d i d t h e y g e t i t fr o m , w h y w o u l d t h e y p u t a s e r i o u s p h r a s e a g a i n s t s o m e i n d iv id u a ls a n a l l e g a ti o n w h ic h w a s u n f o u n d e d ? T h is w a s d o n e t o e n h a n c e t h e n a r r a t iv e a g a i n s t Z u m a , th a t Zu m a is c o r r u p t e v e n i f th e J u d g e d id n o t s a y t h a t th e y m u s t p u t th e w o r d s i n t h e m o u th o f t h e J u d g e . F o r t u n a t e ly, th a t o n e is a m a t t e r t h a t m a n y p e o p l e k n o w i t w a s c le a r to m e t h a t t h is p l a n c o n t i n u e s a n d t h a t ’s w h y I w o u l d s a y, th e r e a r e p e o p le w h o w o u l d n o t b e h a p p y i f I w a s n o t , e i t h e r in ja il o r I w a s not removed. 20 charged or O f c o u r s e w e c o n ti n u e d , a s I w a s s u p p o s e d to b e again, when I’ d been charged a lr e a d y, r a th e r, the in v e s t i g a t io n s w e r e g o i n g o n , N PA w a s c o n fr o n te d b y t h e ta p e s w h i c h in d i c a t e d t h e r e ’d been p l a n n in g , c o n s p ir i n g to charge me with p o li t ic i a n s a n d e v e r y b o d y e ls e t h e t a p e s a r e n o w a p u b lic t h i n g . To a n e x t e n t th a t w h e n th e h e a d o f N PA a t t h e t i m e , c a m e t o k n o w a b o u t these tapes decided to withdraw the charges and therefore I had no Page 24 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 case against me then. N o t b e c a u s e o f a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e t h e p l a n t o c h a r a c te r a s s a s s i n a t e Z u m a , t h e p l a n to r e m o v e Z u m a f r o m l e a d e r s h i p , th e e x p l a n a t io n w a s d o n e b y t h e s e t h r e e i n te l li g e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n s t h a t h e s h o u l d b e o u t b e c a u s e i f h e ’s t h e r e h e w ill u s e i n f o r m a t i o n h e h a s to e i t h e r e x p o s e o r s to p o u r p e o p l e fr o m g o i n g f o r w a r d . I t m e a n s , t h e r e f o r e , th a t p l a n w h ic h w a s m a d e b y in t e ll i g e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n s i n a s e n s e , h a d t o b e i m p l e m e n te d a m o n g o t h e r s b y e v e n p e o p l e in m y o w n o r g a n i s a t io n . 10 Yo u ’l l r e c a ll th a t w h e n I w a s b u il d i n g m y h o m e a t N k a n d la , p r o b le m s a r o s e th e r e a b o u t c o r r u p t io n a n d a g a i n y o u ’ ll r e c a l l t h a t t h e m e d ia i n t h is c o u n tr y m e n t i o n e d t h e fi g u r e o f t h e m o n e y I h a v e s q u a n d e r e d a n d e v e r y t h i n g . A t t h a t p l a c e th e r e w e r e t w o s t r u c tu r e s o f G o v e r n m e n t th a t i n v e s ti g a te d , t h e y f o u n d n o t h in g o n Z u m a b u t I ’v e b e e n s o m u c h v i li fi e d in th e w o r ld a n d e v e r y w h e r e t h a t I ’ m th e m o s t corrupt person. O f c o u r s e a f t e r t h e t w o i n s t i tu t io n s i n v e s ti g a te d , f o r m e r P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a l s o c a m e i n t o d o h e r o w n in v e s t i g a t io n b e c a u s e p e o p l e w a n t e d t o f in d s o m e t h i n g . S h e fo u n d n o t h i n g , t h a t is in h e r r e p o r t , t h e n s h e d e c id e d t o s a y t h e a d d it i o n a l s e c u r i ty m a t te r s i n m y h o m e s te a d w h ic h w e r e p u t i n a s a r e s u l t o f th e p o li c e a n d th e a r m y 20 f o r s e c u r i ty r e a s o n s a s i t i s t h e ir d u ty to l o o k a f te r t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y. T h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t I s h o u l d p a y f o r th o s e b e c a u s e I in d ir e c tly b e n e fi t e d . N o - o n e - n o o th e r Pr e s i d e n t h a s b e e n m a d e to d o s o b u t l o o k a t t h e h e a d i n g o f th e r e p o r t b y th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r, i t s a id , “ s e c u r e d i n c o m f o r t ” . W h y in c o m f o r t , b e c a u s e I h a d b u il t , w i t h G o v e r n m e n t m o n e y a n a m p h i th e a tr e i n N k a n d la . F o r t u n a t e ly, Page 25 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h e r e a f te r m e m b e r s o f P a r li a m e n t f r o m a l l p a r t i e s w e n t t o N k a n d l a t o d o in s p e c t io n . T h e y l o o k e d fo r t h is a m p h i t h e a tr e a n d a s k e d w h e r e i t i s , it ’s n o t t h e r e , i t w a s n e v e r th e r e b u t a n o ffic e r fr o m a B o a r d l ik e t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r w h o is s u p p o s e d t o p r o t e c t u s u s e d t h e p h r a s e – t h e p h r a s e s t o e n h a n c e t h e n a r r a tiv e th a t Z u m a is c o r r u p t . I f y o u w a n t to s e e w h y, f o r a n e x a m p le w h y I h a v e a p r o b l e m a n d r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t h o w th is C o m m is s io n w a s e s ta b lis h e d , f ir s tl y, t h e is s u e o f t h e f a mi ly, t h e G u p t a s c a m e i n a n d th e A N C f e lt w e n e e d to lo o k a t t h is a n d I t h i n k th e S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l o f th e A N C w a s g iv e n a 10 t a s k b y t h e N E C t o i n v e s t ig a t e b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e th e s e a ll e g a t io n s . S o m e b o d y a l s o s a i d t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r s h o u ld i n v e s ti g a te a ls o i n a d d it i o n t o w h a t e v e r w a s d o n e . P u b li c P r o t e c t o r s a i d t h e r e w a s n o m o n e y b u t th e Tr e a s u r y fo u n d m o n e y t o g iv e t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r s o t h a t th e y i n v e s t ig a t e t h is b e f o r e s h e l e a v e s , i n a h u r r y a n d o f c o u r s e s h e l e f t th e w o r k , tr i e d to c o m p l e te i t b u t i t w a s d i ffi c u l t b u t it w a s there. T h e r e p o r t – th e r e s h o u l d b e a S t a t e C a p tu r e r e p o r t t h i s w a s a g a in t o u s e t h i s p h r a s e , t h a t’s w h y I ’v e h a d a p r o b le m w i t h i t , w a s t h e S t a te C a p tu r e d , w h y t h e r e p o r t m u s t s a y w e a r e in v e s t i g a t in g t h e S t a t e Capture? Now I don’t know because I never went to any school, I take 20 t h i n g s , p e r h a p s , li t e r a l ly. I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e S t a t e , in th e m a i n is c o m p o s e d o f th r e e a r m s , P a r l ia m e n t , th e J u d ic i a r y a n d th e E x e c u t iv e b u t t h e C o m m is s i o n is n o t m e a n t t o i n v e s t ig a t e t h e s e t h r e e w h a t e v e r e ls e b u t t h e s e th r e e b u t i t ’s c a l le d t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e . T h e m a t t e r s th a t h a v e b e e n d e a l t w i t h , f o r m e a r e g e n e r a l c o r r u p t io n m a t t e r s , w h y i t w a s – b e c a u s e I w a s a k i n g p i n t h a t w e m u s t g e t a t , t h is C o m m i s s i o n , Page 26 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a c c o r d i n g t o th o s e w h o a r e i m p l e m e n ti n g t h i n g s m u s t b e t h e g r a v e o f Z u m a , m u s t b e b u r ie d h e r e a n d t h a t ’s w h y, w h o e v e r k n e w t h e G u p t a f a m ily o r th e y w e r e fr i e n d s , t h e n th e y d o n ’ t m a t te r b u t Zu m a m a t t e r s . B e c a u s e s o m e t h i n g m u s t b e fo u n d e v e n if t h e m o n e y i s n o t t h e r e , t h o s e i n c h a r g e o f Tr e a s u r y t o f in d t h e m o n e y to g i v e t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r s o t h a t t h is m u s t b e d o n e q u ic k l y. I n o t h e r w o r d s , th e p l a n c o n t i n u e s t o b e i m p l e m e n te d p r e c i s e l y b e c a u s e t h e o p p o s it i o n p a r t i e s w o u l d w a n t th e A N C o u t o f G o v e r n m e n t s o t h e y p ic k u p th e p i e c e s , g o to – w e m u s t r e - i n s t a t e t h e c a s e e t c e t e r a , i t ’s m a d y o u d o n ’ t 10 e v e n k n o w i f t h e s e p e o p le a r e c o o r d in a ti n g q u i e tly. S o I ’v e h a d a p r o b le m t h a t t h is h a s n o t s a i d i t’s a C o m m is s i o n fo r c o r r u p ti o n if y o u w a n t t o s p e c i fy i t w it h a p a r t ic u l a r f a m il y s o w h y d o y o u c a l l it a S t a t e C a p t u r e , is t h a t e x p r e s s i o n m e a n i n g th a t t h e J u d g e s a r e c a p t u r e d ? Is t h e G o v e r n m e n t c a p t u r e d , is t h e P a r l i a m e n t c a p t u r e d ? I ’ m s u r e p e o p l e h a v e s a i d I’ v e g o t v i e w s p a r t ic u l a r ly b e c a u s e o n e d a y w h e n I w a s a d d r e s s i n g th e s tu d e n t s in t h e E a s te r n C a p e a n d t h e s e w e r e s tu d e n t s o f l a w a n d I s a i d t o t h e m , j u s t c h e c k t h is f o r m e , w h y w o u l d l e g a l people accept this expression and work on it, what purpose does it serve? 20 I n o t h e r w o r d s , y o u a r e s a y i n g to t h e in t e r n a t i o n a l c o m m u n i ty S o u th A f r ic a n J u d g e s a r e c a p t u r e d a l l p o l i t ic a l p a r ti e s i n P a r l i a m e n t a r e c a p tu r e d , the E x e c u tiv e is c a p tu r e d by this f a m il y. I t’s an e x a g g e r a ti o n , i t is m e a n t t o e n h a n c e t h is n a r r a t iv e a g a in s t Z u m a . P e r h a p s i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t o j u s t fi r m u p o n e p o i n t t h a t I m a d e i n p a s s i n g t h a t I w a s s u p p o s e d t o ta lk t o , to r e s i g n , l o n g a f te r P o l o k w a n e . I ’v e g o t Page 27 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a c o mr a d e t h a t I’ v e k n o w t h a t I r e c r u i te d i n to t h e s t r u g g l e w h o ’s a b u s i n e s s m a n n o w, w e h a d a c o m m o n fr i e n d i n A n g o l a . Because of P o lo k w a n e t h i s fr i e n d fe l t t h a t, w e l l m y r e l a ti o n s w i th t h is c o m r a d e w a s n e v e r g o o d h e w a n t e d u s t o ta lk , c a n y o u t a lk , s o I s a i d fi n e a n d t h is is c o m r a d e Mz i K h u m a l o s o w e m e t w i t h t h e – t h r e e o f u s t w o o f u s a n d t h is fr i e n d , w e s a i d t h e r e i s n o fi g h t a m o n g u s w h e n I g o t a c o n f e r e n c e o f t h e A N C t h e r e ’s a c o n t e s ta t io n it d o e s n ’ t m e a n t h e r e ’s a f i g h t . So w e d is c u s s e d t h a t f in e , o f c o u r s e M z i s a i d I’ m a c a d r e w e w e r e e le c t e d t h e r e – i n f a c t h e s a id I d id n o t e v e n s u p p o r t h i m b a c k I w a s s u p p o r t in g 10 ( in d is ti n c t) b u t o n c e th a t h a p p e n s w e a r e o n e b u t h e s a i d s o m e t h in g in t e r e s ti n g , t h a t h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b e f o r e P o l o k w a n e c o n f e r e n c e b y t w o c o m r a d e s h e k n e w a n d o n e o ff ic ia l t h e y w e r e g o i n g w i t h , t h i s w a s B u lu la n i N g c u k a , P e n u a l l M e d u n a , th e y w e r e a c c o m p a n i e d b y a S c o r p io n o ffic i a l w h ic h h e d id n o t k n o w. T h e y p r e s e n te d th e m a t te r t o h i m t o s a y, w e ’v e c o m e t o y o u , to m a k e a r e q u e s t , t h i s c o mr a d e , c o m r a d e Zu m a w e ’ v e d o n e in v e s t i g a t io n , i t i s a t a s ta g e w h e r e w e n e e d t o g o fu r t h e r a n d t h is c o m r a d e t h e c a s e w ill b e v e r y s e r i o u s , y o u k n o w t h is c o m r a d e s a c r i fi c e d , f o u g h t a lo t . N o w w e d o n ’ t th in k h e s h o u l d g o t o p r is o n , w e t h i n k th a t w e s h o u ld fi n d a w a y t o m a k e h i m l e a v e t h e 20 w o r k th a t h e ’s d o in g a n d r e t ir e , g o t o N k a n d la a n d w e ’d w a n t to lo o k a ft e r h i m . S o w e w a n te d to c o m e t a l k t o y o u a s a c o m r a d e , a s a b u s i n e s s , c a n y o u h e l p g i v e u s s o m e m o n e y t o d o s o ? T h is is s a id b y t h e s e t w o c o m r a d e s t o M z i K h u m a lo w h o n o w r e la t e s t h i s t o m e a n d h e s a y s , I s a i d t o t h e m , h o w m u c h I a m fi n e I c a n d o it b u t h o w m u c h ? T h e y s a id w e ’l l c o m e b a c k t o y o u b u t h e s a y s th e y n e v e r c a m e b a c k b u t Page 28 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a g a in , t h e r u m o u r a n d t h e r u m o u r t h a t w a s g o i n g in t h e c o r r i d o r s th a t Z u m a m u s t b e m a d e t o r e s i g n a n d g o t o N k a n d la b e c o m e s a r e a li ty, c o n fir m e d b y th e d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n Mz i K h u m a l o a n d t h e m . S o a s I s a id e a r li e r i t w a s a r u m o u r b u t t h i s w a s c o n fir m e d v e r y fir m l y. N o - o n e h a s e v e r c o m e t o m e t o s a y c o u ld y o u g o h o m e a n d s t a y b u t i t m o v e s a r o u n d , p e o p l e tr y to f i n d s o m e th i n g t h a t c a n m a k e Z u m a d i s a p p e a r a n d th e r e f o r e m a n y o th e r t h i n g s in c l u d i n g t h e c o m i n g in t o b e in g o f t h i s C o m m i s s io n i n fl u e n c e d b y th is a n d p e o p l e w h o a r e p a r t ic ip a ti n g – p e o p le a r e p a r ti c i p a t i n g a r e n o t a w a r e o f t h a t a n d m y 10 concern, the P u b lic Protector le a v in g aside the name of the C o m m i s s i o n , in m y v i e w, p r e s c r i b e s h o w t h is C o m m i s s i o n i s g o in g t o be. A ll C o m m i s s i o n s a r e a p p o i n te d b y P r e s i d e n ts a n d t h e r e is n o q u e s t io n a b o u t i t, t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r s a y s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f m a k i n g t h e p r o p o s a l , t h e C h i e f J u s t ic e m u s t b e t h e o n e t o id e n ti fy th e J u d g e w h o m u s t th e n b e t h e C h a ir o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d I fi n d t h a t v e r y o d d b e c a u s e i n m y v i e w t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r is t a k in g t h e p o w e r s , e x e c u ti v e p o w e r s o f th e P r e s i d e n t , is a s k in g t h e C h ie f J u s tic e t o d o t h e j o b t h a t m u s t b e d o n e b y t h e Pr e s id e n t b u t o f c o u r s e I w a s th e P r e s id e n t th e n , a n d t h is w a s b a s i c a ll y c e n tr e d a r o u n d m e , I th o u g h t I s h o u ld n o t r a is e 20 t h e s e is s u e s , i t ’s g o i n g to b e a g a i n s t Z u m a ’s m a k in g t a c ti c s o f d e la y i n g t a c tic s , w h a t e v e r, s o I s a i d fi n e a n d h o p i n g o f c o u r s e , h o p in g t h a t l e g a l p e o p l e w i ll s a y, b u t w h a t i s th is b u t o f c o u r s e t h is C o m m i s s i o n w a s e s t a b li s h e d . I d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o b l e m w it h it , I h a v e a p r o b l e m w i th t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r t a k i n g t h e p o w e r s o f t h e Pr e s id e n t in o r d e r t o fu l fi l s o m e a g e n d a , I d o n ’ t k n o w, u n l e s s I ’ m t o l d o th e r w i s e C h a ir, th a t in fa c t Page 29 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h e r e is a p r o v is io n i n th e C o n s ti t u ti o n I w i ll b e v e r y h a p p y t h a t th e r e w a s n o t h i n g w r o n g t h a t t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r w a s s a y i n g . Why would t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r g o t o t h e e x t e n t o f i n fl u e n c i n g h o w th is a n d w h o m u s t d o t h e i d e n ti f ic a ti o n o f t h e l e a d e r o f t h e C o m m is s i o n . A ll th e s e th in g s p u t to g e th e r te ll m e t h e r e is a h u g e p l a n w h ic h is b e in g m a d e a n d it h a s b e e n m a d e a n d i t h a s b e e n i m p l e m e n t e d . Yo u ’ll r e c a l l th a t t h e i s s u e o f Z u m a m u s t r e s i g n , t h e is s u e o f th e a tt e m p ts in P a r li a m e n t o f t h e v o t e o f n o c o n fi d e n c e , w h ic h is fi n e b e c a u s e t h a t i s w i th i n t h e fr a m e w o r k i n f a c t e v e n p e o p l e r e m e m b e r e d 10 t h a t w e d o n ’t e v e n h a v e t h e w a y h o w t o i m p i n g e t h e P r e s i d e n t i t ’s n o t – le t u s d o i t b e c a u s e w e m u s t t a k e th is f e l lo w o u t , w e m u s t f i n d a w a y a n d h e r e ’s a C o m m i s s i o n , t h is f e ll o w h e i s a fr ie n d o f t h i s f a m il y, w e a r e g o i n g t o f in d s o m e t h i n g . H e te ll s – h e ’s b e e n to ld b y th is fa m i ly w h o t o a p p o i n t w h o n o t t o a p p o i n t e t c e te r a , e tc e t e r a a n d t h e r e is nothing of that kind. I s ti ll – I a m s t ill w a i ti n g f o r s o m e b o d y to c o m e a n d t e l l m e I s a id y e s y o u w e r e t o l d h e r e t h a t e le c t o r a p p o i n t t h i s o n e a n d y o u d id i n th is w a y a n d t h a t w a y. B e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n w a i ti n g s o t h a t I c a n r e a l ly a s k t h e k i n d o f a p e r s o n ‘ w h e r e d id y o u g e t th is fr o m ? ’ B u t i t h a s b e e n m a d e t o b e in c l u d e d i n th e n a r r a t iv e ‘ g e t r i d o f Zu m a ’ . 20 T h e w h o le c o u n tr y a t o n e p o i n t t h e r e w a s a d e m o n s tr a t i o n th a t w e h a v e n e v e r s e e n b e fo r e w h e n th e w h i t e c o m m u n i ty c a m e o u t i n great numbers Zuma must go. What has he done? N o b o d y c a n t e l l. H e is c o r r u p t. W h a t h a s h e d o n e ? N o th in g . O f a ll t h e p r e s id e n ts w h o h a v e b e e n b e fo r e m e t h e r e is n o t a s in g le o n e w h o h a s b e e n b r o u g h t a n d e v e n b r o u g h t t o c o m m i s s io n s Page 30 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 e tc e t e r a . B u t t o Zu m a w e m u s t d o it . I a m g iv i n g t h is b a c k g r o u n d b e c a u s e w h a t e v e r – w h a t e v e r w e d o I h a v e li s t e n e d t o s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n a c c u s i n g m e c o m i n g h e r e . O n e o f th e m s a i d t h a t – it w a s N g o a k o R a m a t h l o d i w h e n w e s in g h e m u s t r e s i g n w e a s k , h e a s k w h a t h a v e I d o n e ? W e k n o w h e h a s a u c ti o n e d th e c o u n tr y. W h a t a n e x a g g e r a t io n fr o m a l a w y e r. He c a n n o t t e ll y o u a u c ti o n w h a t – w h a t d i d I a u c ti o n Ta b le M o u n ta in ? O r a u c ti o n J o h a n n e s b u r g I d o n o t k n o w. T h e m a n is s i t ti n g – h e w a s s i tt i n g w h e r e I a m s i t ti n g n o w. Z u m a h a s a u c ti o n e d t h e c o u n tr y t h a t i s 10 w h y w e s a i d h e m u s t g o . B u t it is a li e . T h e r e is n o t h i n g o f t h a t n a t u r e . Fi n a l ly b e c a u s e I a m h e r e I a m a b o u t t o fi n i s h m y t h i r d – m y s e c o n d te r m . T h o s e p e o p le p e r h a p s w h o w e r e p a r t o f t h e d e c is io n t a k e n th a t Zu m a m u s t n o t b e C h i e f I n te ll i g e n c e w i t h i n m y o r g a n i s a t io n f e e l th e – fa il t o d o t h e t a s k . T h o s e w h o a r e ta s k e d t o e n s u r e t h a t Z u m a g o e s . T h e y c r e a te a s it u a ti o n a s w e a r e a b o u t to g o f o r t h e S t a t e o f th e N a t io n . Z u m a m u s t n o t g iv e th is o n e , h e m u s t r e s i g n . I n c lu d in g t h e N E C m e e ts to ta k e th a t d e c i s i o n , w h y ? H e m u s t b e o u t . I s p a r t o f th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e p l a n b y t h e i n te ll ig e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n s th a t Z u m a must go. 20 A n d o f c o u r s e f in a l ly h e m u s t c o m e b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s . A n d I a m h e r e t o a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s b u t C h a i r I t h o u g h t i t i s i m p o r ta n t f o r m e t o g iv e y o u t h is b a c k g r o u n d i n w h a te v e r c o n c l u s i o n s th e c o m m i s s io n w o u l d c o m e t o o r w h a t e v e r o r w h a t e v e r q u e s t io n s y o u a r e g o i n g to b e a s k in g m e y o u m u s t b e a r i n m i n d t h a t I have got this background that is a worry to me. T h e f a c t t h a t I w a s a P r e s i d e n t s o m e p e o p l e f o r g o t it . A n d o f Page 31 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 c o u r s e c l e a r l y i f t h e r e a r e s u c h a c t iv it i e s p a r t ic u l a r ly fr o m o u r o w n o r g a n i s a t io n I n e e d p e r h a p s to g o b a c k a n d s a y t h e s e t h r e e i n te ll ig e n c e o r g a n i s a t io n s w h o s a id t h e r e a r e p e o p le h e r e . Ar e th e r e p e o p l e h e r e , d o I k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e p e o p le h e r e o r n o t ? E v e n fr o m m y in t e l li g e n c e w o r k . N o w I d o n o t w a n t to d is c u s s i n t e ll ig e n c e b u t c e r t a i n ly t h e a c ti o n s , t h e b e h a v i o u r h a s i n d ic a t e d t h a t it l o o k s lik e t h e r e a r e . W h o a r e th e y ? S h o u l d w e r e a c h th a t p o i n t b e c a u s e fo r a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s w e h a v e b e e n v e r y c a r e f u l n o t t o p l a y t o t h is g r o u n d – t o t h a t g r o u n d 10 b e c a u s e i t is s e n s i t iv e ? B u t I h a v e b e e n p r o v o k e d a n d p r o v o k e d t o t h e la s t d e g r e e . B y p e o p le a t ti m e s I k n o w w h a t th e y a r e d o in g b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n w a n ti n g t o s a v e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d t o s a v e t h e c o u n t r y. T h e y m a k e s t o r ie s . T h e y d o e v e r y t h i n g . M y o w n f a m ily s u ff e r s o u t o f t h is . L e a v i n g m e p e r h a p s I a m a s o l d i e r I c a n t a k e e v e r y t h in g . P e o p l e f o r g e t t h a t I h a v e g o t a fa m i ly w h i c h w o u l d n o t w a n t t o h e a r l ie s b e i n g told about me. B u t n o t ju s t th a t . Yo u h a v e s o m e o f m y c h il d r e n w h o h a v e s u ffe r e d a s a r e s u lt o f m e . O n e o f m y s o n s S a a d y w a s w o r k i n g i n a c o m p a n y I th i n k i t i s M a r c e Fir e Fi g h ti n g C o m p a n y. H e w a s w o r k in g t h e r e g iv e n a r e s p o n s i b i li ty to l o o k f o r – I m e a n t o c o n c e n tr a t e o n t h e 20 c o n ti n e n t a n d th e r e w a s a ti m e p u t t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h i s t i m e h e w i ll b e c o m e o n e o f th e d ir e c to r s . A c o m p a n y w h i c h h a d N u g o a n d o t h e r s w a n t e d t o h a v e a d e a l w i t h t h is c o m p a n y a n d in d e e d th e y t a lk e d t o t h is c o m p a n y. W h e n i t c a m e t o t h e p a p e r s th e y s a w a n a m e Z u m a . Sum S a a d y Z u m a . Th e y a s k e d w h o is t h is . P o o r fe ll o w h e t h o u g h t t h a t t h i s is a c h il d o f a p r e s i d e n t th is g u y is a n A N C t h e y w i ll b e v e r y h a p p y. H e Page 32 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 s a y s n o t h is is t h e s o n o f th e p r e s i d e n t . T h e y s a id s o r r y w e c a n n o t h a v e a d e a l w i th th is n a m e . I f th is m a n r e m a in s o n o u r p a p e r s t h e r e is no deal. I t is e i t h e r u s o r h i m . e m p l o y e r s t o l e a v e t h e c o m p a n y. H e w a s a s k e d v e r y p o li t e ly b y t h e H e tr i e d to l o o k f o r a j o b i n J o h a n n e s b u r g b e c a u s e h e w a s Z u m a ’s s o n h e c o u l d n o t fi n d i t. He tr i e d t o s t a r t b u s in e s s h e c o u l d n o t . H e c a m e to m e t o s a y I h a v e a g o t a problem. I s a i d , m y s o n g o t o D u r b a n a n d l o o k f o r a jo b . T h a t is w h e r e h e w e n t to s t a r t h i s o w n b u s in e s s . T h e y o u n g m a n w h o c o m e s a f t e r th a t o n e D u d u z a n e . 10 They s t a r t e d k n o w i n g t h i s f a m il y w h e n t h e y u s e d t o c o m e t o m e , w h e n I w a s s t il l a D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t . W h e n h e fi n i s h e d h i s s t u d i e s h e h a s d o n e I T h e w e n t to w o r k i n t h e I n t e l li g e n c e , N a ti o n a l In t e l li g e n c e o f t h e c o u n tr y. W h e n th e s e a t t a c k s o n m e s t a r t e d h e w a s i ll- tr e a t e d t h e r e . H e fi n a ll y c a m e t o m e t o s a y I w a n te d to w o r k f o r g o v e r n m e n t b u t I c a n n o t because – because I am your son. I a m n o t e v e n – w h a t y o u c a ll – a c c e p te d t h e r e . H e l o o k e d f o r a n e m p lo y m e n t . N o w t h a t h e k n e w h is f a m ily th a t th e y r u n n in g a n I T c o m p a n y h e lo o k e d f o r a jo b i n t h a t c o m p a n y a n d h e w a s e m p l o y e d a n d w o r k e d th e r e a s a n e m p l o y e r – a s a n e m p l o y e e r a t h e r. W h e n I w a s t a k e n t o c o u r t h e w a s q u i t e a g i t a t e d . 20 L e f t t h e jo b . H e w a n te d t o t a k e v i d e o s o f my a p p e a r a n c e in c o u r t a n d s e t u p w i t h h i s f r i e n d . I s a id y o u c a n n o t le a v e a jo b . H e s a i d n o I a m le a v in g th is j o b . O f c o u r s e th e c a s e d is a p p e a r e d a t s o m e p o in t . He c a m e b a c k to m e t o s a y D a d d y y o u w e r e r ig h t I a m n o t fi n d i n g a jo b . I h a v e b e e n l o o k in g f o r a j o b i n G a u t e n g . N o b o d y c a n t a k e m e b e c a u s e I a m y o u r s o n . I h a v e b e e n lo o k i n g f o r p a r t n e r s , n o b o d y c a n t a k e m e . I Page 33 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 s a i d t o h i m – y o u k n o w w h a t I s a i d t o y o u r b r o t h e r, y o u m u s t g o t o Durban. Go to Durban. He went to Durban. S t a r te d s o m e b u s i n e s s w i t h s o m e p a r t n e r s . B u t la t e r h e d i s c o v e r e d s o m e t h i n g th a t h e d i d n o t lik e i n th e c o m p a n y. O n h i s o w n h e w e n t to ta lk t o t h e G u p t a ’s t h a t h e w o u l d l ik e t o c o m e b a c k b u t n o t a s a n e m p l o y e e th is t i m e h e w a n t s t o b e p a r t o f th e c o m p a n y. T h e y d is c u s s e d a n d f i n is h e d . I d i d n o t e v e n k n o w. I was o n ly in f o r m e d a f t e r w a r d s . A n d h e h a s b e e n t h e r e w o r k i n g . B e c a u s e h e is m y s o n h e h a s s u ffe r e d a g r e a t d e a l. O f c o u r s e p e o p l e w i ll n o t f e e l 10 g o o d i f I a m s ti ll th e r e b u t I a m j u s t g iv in g t h e C h a ir th e i m p a c t o f t h is . A s w e m o v e d t o w a r d s t h e e n d a s I s a id th e N E C i ts e l f w a s in fl u e n c e d t o t a k e a d e c is i o n th a t t h e r e h a s b e e n c a l li n g Z u m a m u s t g o n o w, h e m u s t g o i n d e e d . I n o t h e r w o r d s t h a t p la n I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t fi n a l ly s u c c e e d e d . I h a d to r e s ig n fr o m t h e A N C i n o r d e r to le a v e th e A N C i n t a c t b e c a u s e I l o v e it . I t i s m y o r g a n is a ti o n . I t m e a n t n o th i n g i f I r e s ig n e d t h e A N C r e m a in s . B u t it i s c l e a r t o m e s o m e t h i n g w h ic h c a m e fr o m t h e a n s w e r o f t h e t h r e e in t e l li g e n c e o r g a n i s a t io n s t h a t th e r e a r e p e o p l e i n fi l tr a t e d th e i r s p i e s . They were at work. I asked the – my o r g a n i s a t io n w h a t h a v e I d o n e a n d I g o t n o a n s w e r. 20 M a y b e C h a ir h a v i n g s a i d w h a t I h a v e s a id l e t m e d e a l w i t h m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h t h e G u p t a fa m i ly s o th a t y o u d o n o t s u ffe r tr y t o a s k q u e s ti o n s . B e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: W e l l s o r r y Mr Z u m a m a y b e t h is m i g h t b e t h e c o n v e n i e n t t i m e t o t a k e th e t e a b r e a k . We were going to take – we n o r m a l ly t a k e i t a t q u a r te r p a s t e l e v e n b u t I d i d n o t w a n t t o i n te r r u p t – t o in t e r r u p t y o u . S o w e a r e a t n i n e m i n u t e s t o t w e lv e – w e w il l t a k e t h e Page 34 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t e a b r e a k a n d r e s u m e a t te n p a s t t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES: C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u s t – I a m j u s t w a i t in g f o r e v e r y b o d y t o s i t d o w n a t t h e b a c k . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Yo u – M r Z u m a y o u w e r e a b o u t t o b e g i n t o t e l l m e a b o u t y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e G u p ta f a m ily. Yo u m a y proceed. MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: w i ll c o m e b a c k t o o t h e r p o in ts h e r e . 10 T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. I I ju s t t h o u g h t i t is i m p o r ta n t fo r m e t o d e a l w i t h t h a t m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: P a r t ic u l a r l y because p e o p l e h a v e c r i tic is e d m e e v e n i n m y o w n o r g a n is a ti o n . e x p l a i n e d in p r o p e r s it t i n g s o f t h e o r g a n i s a ti o n . many I have Some people just do n o t w a n t t o t a k e i t b u t I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t o e x p l a i n t h is b e c a u s e i t a ls o h a s e le m e n ts t h a t a r e f u n n y. M e m b e r s o f t h i s f a m il y w e r e b r o u g h t t o my r e s i d e n c e i n O l iv e r Ta m b o w h e n I w a s a D e p u ty P r e s id e n t w h e r e I s a w t h e m f o r th e fir s t t i m e . T h e y w e r e c o m in g fr o m ( i n d is ti n c t) fr o m P r e s i d e n t M b e k i . 20 T h e p e r s o n w h o i n tr o d u c e d th e m w a s E s s o p P a h a d . They were in tr o d u c e d a s g o o d b u s i n e s s p e o p l e b u t t h e y w e r e a l s o c o m r a d e s m e m b e r s o f t h e A N C a n d – a n d t h a t is h o w s o m e o f m y f a m i ly m e m b e r s g o t t o k n o w t h e m . T h e y o u n g m e n w e r e s t i ll v e r y y o u n g a t t h e t i m e w a s t h e r e , s a w t h e m a n d i n tr o d u c e d th e m . T h a t is w h y w h e n h e w a n t e d a j o b h e r e m e m b e r e d t h a t t h e y Page 35 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 h a d s a i d t h e y r u n t h is k i n d o f a c o m p a n y – o f I T c o m p a n y. T h e y w e r e a ls o i n tr o d u c e d fo r th e s e c o n d t i m e b y s o m e c o mr a d e s i n G a u t e n g w h o w e r e p r e s e n t t h e n i n th e ir c o m p a n y. T h e y ta k e w o r k e r s f r o m t h e ir p l a c e s i n t h e m o r n i n g to w o r k a n d t h e y c o o k lu n c h f o r t h e m a n d t h e y take them back at sunset. T h a t is h o w I g o t t o k n o w t h e m a n d I w i t h ti m e b e c a u s e I h a d n o w k n o w n th e m I g o t t o k n o w e v e n s o m e o f th e th i n g s t h e y d o . Fo r e x a m p l e o n e o f t h e m w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e in t e r n a t i o n a l c o u n c i l th a t w a s a d v i s i n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t o n e c o n o m i c t h i n g s a n d I f o u n d t h e m t o b e 10 a v e r y - a v e r y fr ie n d l y f a m il y. W i t h ti m e I g o t t o k n o w q u i te a n u m b e r o f t h e m i f n o t a l l o f t h e m a n d th e y w e r e i n d e e d - t h e y k n e w a l o t o f c o m r a d e s a n d I g o t t o k n o w t h a t i n fa c t w h e n M a n d e l a w a s P r e s i d e n t t h e y s t a r t e d b e in g v e r y c l o s e a n d w e r e fr ie n d s o f M a n d e l a a n d – a n d w h e n M a n d e l a w a s g o n e t h e y w e r e fr i e n d s w i t h T h a b o w h i ls t I w a s t h e r e a s I s a y t h e y s a w m e c o m in g fr o m h i s – h is h o m e . I n e v e r d i d a n y t h i n g w i th t h e m u n la w f u l ly o r w h a t e v e r. Th e y ju s t r e m a i n e d fr i e n d s a s th e y w e r e fr ie n d s t o e v e r y b o d y e l s e . I have e x p l a i n e d h o w m y s o n g o t o n t o th e m w h e n h e l o o k e d fo r a d i ff e r e n t k i n d o f b u s in e s s p e o p le t o w o r k w it h a n d I h a v e w o n d e r e d w h y I a m a c c u s e d 20 w h y p e o p l e th i n k th a t m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e m i s n o t r ig h t w h e n th e y h a d a r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e . Tw o o th e r P r e s i d e n ts h a v e h a d r e l a t i o n s w i t h t h e m . In fact s tr o n g e r w i t h C o m r a d e T h a b o M b e k i . H e h i m s e l f h a s a p p e a r e d t a l k i n g a b o u t – t a l k i n g w i t h t h e m a t t i m e s a d d r e s s i n g th e m in – i n t h e s o c i a l media. W h y s h o u l d p e o p le t h i n k t h a t th i s w a s o n e t h in g t o g e t Z u m a Page 36 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a n d th e y d i d n o t k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . E v e r y t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n s is s o r t o f a s s o c i a te d w i t h m e . I a m s u r e y o u h a v e l is te n e d h e r e t o a n d I h a v e b e e n y o u k n o w g i v e n n a m e s a n d n a m e s t h a t I a ll o w e d t h e s e p e o p l e t o l a n d in t h e N a t io n a l P o i n t in S o u t h A fr ic a . N o o n e h a s e v e r a s k e d m e d i d y o u d o s o o r is th e r e a n y i n f o r m a ti o n to t h a t e ff e c t b e c a u s e it n e v e r h a p p e n e d . I d i d n o t k n o w w h e r e t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o l a n d n o r w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a la n d i n g t o h a p p e n o n a p a r t ic u l a r d a y b u t it h a s b e e n Z u m a a g a in a n d t h a t i s w h a t N g o a k o R a m a tl h o d i s a i d a s h e w a s g iv i n g e v i d e n c e h e r e . 10 H e a ll o w e d h i s f r i e n d s t o – t o l a n d in a h i g h ly s e n s i tiv e a r e a . C o m r a d e N g o a k o h a s n e v e r a s k e d m e w h e th e r I t a lk e d t o t h e m a n d I a l lo w e d th e m t o c o m e t h e r e a n d I a m s u r e y o u h a v e i t n o w i n y o u r – i n y o u r r e c o r d s . P e r h a p s n o t th e m a t te r t o d w e ll s o m u c h b u t t h e p o in t I a m m a k i n g I n e v e r d i d a n y o t h e r t h in g o u t o f o r b r e a k i n g t h e l a w w i t h t h is f a m ily n e v e r. They were business people and successful business people. T h e y k n e w a l o t o f b u s in e s s p e o p l e w h o a r e a ls o i n t h e A N C a n d I t h in k s o m e m ig h t h a v e w o r k e d w i t h t h e m . k n o w n o t h in g a b o u t b u s i n e s s . 20 I am not a business person. I a m a p o l it ic ia n . I I know something a b o u t p o li t ic s ; b e c a u s e o f th e f a c t t h a t t h e y a r e c o m r a d e s t h e y a r e a c c e p te d a n d I r e a l is e t h a t t h e y s e e m to b e n o t ju s t a l it t le b u s i n e s s here quite substantial. T h e r e h a d b e e n a p r o b le m t h a t w o r r i e d u s – a ll u s t h a t i n t h is c o u n tr y t h e m e d i a is v e r y b ia s e d . A t a l l m a te r i a l t i m e s i t is j u s t c r i t ic a l . I t c r i t ic is e s th e c o u n tr y e tc e te r a . T h e r e i s n o a lt e r n a t iv e v o i c e a n d i f Page 37 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 p e o p l e c o u ld c o m p l a in a n d s a y I a b u s e d t h e m t h a t o n e I c o u ld p l e a d g u il ty b e c a u s e I th e n o n e d a y h a v i n g k n o w n t h a t w e h a v e b e e n t r y i n g t o h a v e b u s in e s s w h o a r e p r o g r e s s i v e t o e s t a b li s h a m e d i a s o r t o f o r c a n d i d v o ic e o f w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g . I t h i n k e v e n p e o p l e w h o a r e A N C m e m b e r s h a d tr i e d e v e n t o p a r t n e r w i t h o th e r p e o p l e . I t h a d n e v e r w o r k e d . A t t h a t t i m e I w a s t h e President of the ANC. I t h e n s a i d t o t h e m m a n a n d m a k in g a s u g g e s t io n . C a n y o u tr y a b u s i n e s s – a m e d i a b u s i n e s s - b e c a u s e y o u are comrades? 10 W e n e e d a n a lt e r n a tiv e v o ic e . Th e r e a r e m a n y a tt e m p ts t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e b e f o r e b y p r o g r e s s iv e p e o p le b u t th e y have never worked. Is i t p o s s i b l e t h a t y o u c o u l d e s t a b li s h a n e w s p a p e r ? Th e y h a v e n e v e r t h o u g h t o f t h e id e a a n d w e d is c u s s e d t h is . Th e y f i n a lly s a i d I t h i n k it is a g o o d id e a b e c a u s e i t is b u s i n e s s a s w e l l . I s a id fi n e . S o t h e y s a i d n o w e w i ll d o s o m e th in g a b o u t i t . T h e y c a m e b a c k t o s a y n o w t h e y h a v e d e c i d e d t h e y w a n t t o e s t a b li s h a n e w s p a p e r. A s s o o n a s t h e y a g r e e d b e c a u s e th is w a s m e a s a n i n d iv id u a l t a lk i n g a b o u t w h a t w e h a d s e e n a s a p r o b l e m t h a t t h e m e d i a i n t h i s c o u n tr y is v e r y n e g a tiv e . 20 I n f a c t a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s t h a t a r e d o n e w h ic h t h e y s u p p o s e d t o b e r e p o r te d a b o u t a t ti m e s t h e y d o n o t s e e t h e li g h t o f d a y o n l y n e g a tiv i ty. O n c e t h e y a g r e e d I t h e n t h o u g h t i t w o u l d b e i m p o r ta n t f o r m e t o m a k e o n e p e r s o n a w a r e o f th is . O n e l e a d e r w h o w a s th e S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l o f th e A N C , G w e d e M a n ta s h e . I s a i d G w e d e I h a v e t a lk e d to t h e s e c o mr a d e s fo r th e m t o d o t h e ir b u s i n e s s a n d t h e y s e e m Page 38 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t o b e w a r m t o t h e i d e a a n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t I a ls o in f o r m e d t h e D e p u t y S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l a b o u t t h is t o s a y th is is a n i n it i a t iv e o f t h e s e – o f t h e s e c o m r a d e s b u t it is a n i m p o r t a n t o n e . W e a s p o l i ti c i a n s p a y a lo t o f a t te n ti o n t o m e d i a . A ls o r u n n in g i n c o u n tr ie s b e c a u s e w e w o u l d w a n t fo r e x a m p l e f a ir r e p o r ti n g . A t t i m e s t h e r e p o r t in g i n o u r c o u n tr y is n o t fa ir. S o I t h i n k t h e y w e r e h a p p y a s w e ll . S o I s a i d m a n s o t h a t y o u k n o w I a m n o t j u s t t a lk i n g . O n e d a y I w o u l d b e h a p p y i f y o u c o u l d s e e th e m a n d h e a r h o w t h e y t h i n k i n g o f it . T h e y h a v e b e e n th in k i n g a b o u t it . S o th e t w o c o m r a d e s a n d I lis t e n e d t o t h e m a t o n e ti m e w h e n 10 t h e y w a n t e d t o s a y h o w t h e y w a n t t o g o a b o u t t h is – t h i s t h i n g . agreed. So I W h e n t h e y w e r e a b o u t to – to – w h e n t h e y w e r e m o v i n g f o r w a r d t h e y t h e n s a i d c a n y o u h e lp a s k i n g m e . G iv e u s a n a m e . W e d o n o t k n o w h o w t o c a ll th is n e w s p a p e r. S o I s a i d to th e m t h e r e u s e d t o b e s tr u g g le p u b li c a t io n s w e u s e d to h a v e c a l le d S p e a k , F i g h t in g Ta lk , N e w A g e e tc e t e r a . S o I g a v e a ll t h o s e n a m e s . T h e y l o v e d t h is n a m e N e w A g e a n d th a t i s h o w t h e p a p e r w a s n a m e d . S o t h e y e s t a b l is h e d a n e w s p a p e r a n d s t a r te d w o r k . W e w e r e v e r y h a p p y. T h e y e v e n d is c u s s e d t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g to r e p o r t a b o u t 20 p r o v i n c e s i n t h is p a p e r. S o th e r e is n o p r o b l e m t h a t is n o t r e p o r te d t o a s a l w a y s th e y a r e n o t i n t h e n a t io n a l n e w s p a p e r s e x c e p t i f t h e r e is a b i g th in g . L e t u s d o s o m e t h i n g d i ff e r e n t a s th e y w e r e s a y i n g . W h e n t h is p a p e r w a s o p e r a ti n g a n d r e a l ly b e in g a p p r e c i a t e d in t h e c o u n tr y to b r i n g a b o u t a – a n a l t e r n a t iv e v o i c e . I t h e n s a t a n d s a i d m a n th e n e w s p a p e r, fi n e w e h a v e s u c c e e d e d . Page 39 of 101 I did – I do not 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 k n o w a n d I w a s t h i n k in g w h e t h e r I c o u ld p u s h th e m f u r t h e r. S o I s a id t o t h e m t h is i s v e r y s u c c e s s fu l . W h a t a b o u t a T V c h a n n e l ? I suggested t h e p a p e r to t h e m . I s u g g e s te d t h e c h a n n e l. a b u s i n g th is – t h is fr i e n d s h i p . Somebody can then say we are It was never the other way around. It w a s m e w h o p u t t h e m i n to t r o u b l e b e c a u s e I s a id y o u r p a p e r is s o s u c c e s s fu l . I am sure your TV thing can be successful and they a g r e e d . T h e y s a i d i t is a g o o d i d e a a n d t h e y m o v e d o n i t . I k n o w t h a t p e o p l e w h o h a d p r o b le m s h a d a l o t t o s a y a b o u t t h i s . 10 I th o u g h t i t w a s a v e r y g o o d th i n g t h a t t h e y d i d . T h e r e w a s n o la w b r o k e n t h e r e . There was no wrong things done. I d is c u s s e d w i t h b u s in e s s p e o p le m a n y th in g s w h e n I w a s s ti ll i n t h e – i n t h e Government. Even suggest certain things can you not do in your b u s i n e s s . T h is w a s a n o r m a l k i n d o f in t e r a c t io n . S o t h e y e s t a b l is h e d t h is a n d in d e e d t h e A N N 7 b r o u g h t fr e s h a ir in t h e c o u n tr y in t e r m s o f r e p o r t in g , i n te r ms o f p u t ti n g a c r o s s p r o g r e s s iv e i d e a s . I t w a s n e v e r a b a d t h i n g o r th a t t h e r e is c o r r u p ti o n a b o u t i t n o t h i n g . A c le a r s u g g e s ti o n a b o u t b u s in e s s a n d b u s i n e s s p e o p le t o o k it . T h e y t h e n f e tc h e d t h e ir p e o p l e w h e r e v e r i t w a s . I a m m a k i n g t h is 20 p o i n t b e c a u s e th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p e n d e d u p in s o f a r a s w e a r e c o n c e r n e d w h o w a n ts m e d i a t h a t i s p r o g r e s s iv e h e l p i n g t o h a v e t h i s m e d ia th a t w a s a b l e t o r e p o r t d i ffe r e n tl y. T h a t is a n e x t e n t o f th e k i n d o f fr i e n d s h i p w e h a d . I th in k t h e y in v i t e a lw a y s m a n y p e o p l e fo r – f o r t h e ir fu n c t i o n s – y e a r ly f u n c t i o n s a n d p e o p l e g o t h e r e . S o m e h o w b e c a u s e I w a s – th is w a s m e Page 40 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 p e o p l e th o u g h t t h a t w e f o u n d s o m e t h i n g t o i m p l e m e n t t h a t p la n b e c a u s e Z u m a i s fr i e n d s to t h i s . L e t u s s a y h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h G u p t a s is c o r r u p t a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e i t i s c o r r u p t. A f e w c o m r a d e s r a is e d t h e m a tt e r w it h m e . I a s k e d w h a t t h e w r o n g th i n g is . What is wrong? T h e y c o u l d n o t te ll m e . In f a c t o n e ti m e i t w a s r a is e d i n t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e . I made an e x p l a n a t io n h o w I c a m e to k n o w th is a n d n o b o d y s a id i t is w r o n g . T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g w r o n g b u t s o m e p e o p le a r e ir r i ta t e d . I d o n o t k n o w w h y. B e s i d e s t h i s I e v e n e x p la i n e d t h is i n t h e N a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e 10 C o m m i t t e e t h a t w e j u s t t a lk e d w i th t h e m . O n e c o mr a d e E s s o p P a h a d i s a c t u a ll y w o r k in g w i t h t h e m i n a p u b li c a t io n c a l le d T h e Th i n k e r. H e w a s e d i to r. I t h i n k a t t h e e n d th a t b u s in e s s e n d e d u p w it h h i m . Nobody s a y s a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t. N o b o d y s a y s a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p between them and Mandela, between them and Mbeki but because t h e r e is a n a r r a t iv e t o b e d o n e w i t h Z u m a – Zu m a t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g a n d n o b o d y is t e l li n g m e w h a t is w r o n g w i t h m e . W h a t i s n o t w r o n g w i th o t h e r p e o p l e in c l u d in g o t h e r c o m r a d e s b u t s o m e p e o p le t h o u g h t th is is w h a t w e a r e g o i n g g e t Zu m a . T h a t is 20 w h y t h e y i n f l u e n c e d t h e p r o c e s s t o e s t a b lis h t h is C o m m i s s i o n t o f u n d Zuma. T h e y h a v e b e e n f r i e n d s a n d t h e y w e r e fr i e n d s – a n d th e y w o r k e d w i t h my s o n a n d t h e r e w a s a b s o lu t e ly n o p r o b l e m . I n fa c t I w a s w a i ti n g t o h e a r w h a t i t i s t h a t t h e y d i d w r o n g . T h e r e is n o th in g m o r e t h a t I c a n s a y th e s e a r e t h e th i n g s w e did. I am mentioning this because to me these were important the Page 41 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 media thing. The newspaper and the channel. W e t a lk e d to t h e m . O n c e th e y – t h e i d e a w a s r i p e t h e y th e n w e n t t o b r i e f t h e t o p s i x o ffic i a ls a b o u t t h e i n i t ia t iv e w e w e r e u n d e r t a k i n g . T h e y a ls o b r ie f e d th e a l li a n c e . T h e y a ls o b r i e f e d p r o v i n c e s a n d t h e y a l s o I t h i n k lik e a l l n e w s p a p e r s t a lk e d to p e o p l e i n G o v e r n m e n t fo r a d v e r t is e m e n ts o r w h a t e v e r. W h a t i s w r o n g w it h t h a t? know Zuma. T h e y h a v e b e c o m e fr i e n d s to Zu m a . something wrong. 10 N o it is b e c a u s e t h e y h a p p e n t o Th e n t h e r e is I c o u l d n o t t a k e p e o p l e w h o r a i s i n g is s u e s o n th is m a t t e r w h e n t h e y h a v e n o c o m p l a in t ju s t t o s a y n o , n o y o u d o n o t l ik e them. N e v e r, n e v e r d id I d is c u s s a n y th in g th a t d o e s n o t b e l o n g t o t h e m . I a m t o l d t h a t t h e r e w e r e a p p o in t i n g M i n is t e r s . W h e r e d o t h e y c o m e in ? W h y s h o u l d t h e y d o s o ? Wa s I n o t c a p a b l e o f d o i n g m y w o r k t h a t I n e e d e d o th e r p e o p l e ? T h e r e is a l o t o f c o n s u l ta t io n w i t h th e le a d e r s h i p w h e n i t c o m e s to p la c i n g p e o p l e o r fo r m i n g C a b i n e t w h a t e v e r. I h a v e n e v e r d o n e i t a lo n e . W h a t is th e p r o b l e m ? O f c o u r s e u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h o s e w h o c a m e n e v e r s a i d t h i s i s w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d . 20 T h e y j u s t s a y w r o n g th in g s b l a h , b la h , b l a h . I t is i m p o r ta n t fo r u s t o – t o c la r i fy t h a t p o in t . S o m e p e o p l e a r e s o i r r i t a te d b u t I d i d n o t k n o w h o w t o – t o e x p l a i n th a t o n e . T h e s e w e r e c o mr a d e s . These were business people. I w a s in tr o d u c e d t o t h e m e v e n a t a v e r y h i g h le v e l o f t h e A N C a n d th a t is h o w I g o t t o k n o w th e m a n d th a t is w h y m y s o n f e l t i f – h e Page 42 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 w e n t t o th e m a n d j o i n e d t h e m a n d b e c a m e a p a r t n e r t o t h e m . These a r e p e o p le h e c a n w o r k w i th a n d s u c c e e d a n d I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s n o p r o b le m b u t h e h a s b e e n c r u c i fi e d f o r t h a t . Well in – in terms of the G u p t a s u n l e s s t h e r e w a s a n y th i n g w h ic h w h e n th e ti m e c o m e s I w il l c o m e t o l e t m e c o m e b a c k t o t h e is s u e o f th e p l a n – t h e u n f o ld in g o f t h e p l a n . T h e p e o p l e w h o c o m e d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s . I h a v e b e e n a t ta c k e d e v e n w h e n I a m c o m i n g h e r e . Part of t h e r e a s o n I h a v e m o r e v is i t o r s t o d a y t h a n a n y o t h e r ti m e b e c a u s e I a m here. 10 S o m e p e o p l e I k n o w f o r a fa c t m i g h t k n o w th a t I k n o w t h i n g s a b o u t t h e m a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o l ik e m e b u t I h a v e behaved for decades. I h a v e n o t p l a y e d a r o u n d w i t h in t e l li g e n c e in f o r m a ti o n . I h a v e l iv e d w i t h p e o p l e w h o d o n o t k n o w I k n o w a b o u t t h e m b e c a u s e th a t w a s n o t w h a t I w a s tr a in e d f o r t o u s e in t e l li g e n c e w r o n g l y o r c a r e l e s s ly b u t t h e s e c o m r a d e s h a v e p r o v o k e d m e a n d o t h e r p e o p l e . N o t o n ly t h e m . S o m e o t h e r p e o p l e h a d s a i d t h i n g s f o r e x a m p l e o n e d a y C o m r a d e M b a l u la a t te n d - a t t e n d e d a n a c ti v i ty in t h e f a r m o r h o m e o f M r R u p e r t a n d t h e n R u p e r t s a w h i m h e s a i d M in is t e r M b a l u l a - w h e n t h a t h a p p e n e d h e w a s t h e M i n i s te r o f S p o r t s . 20 I f Zu m a t a k e s o u t – r e m o v e s Pr a v in G o r d h a n i t w il l s h u t d o w n t h e e c o n o m y o f t h is c o u n tr y. Yo u m u s t g o a n d t e l l h i m a n d i n d e e d M b a l u la c a m e t o t e l l m e . I s a id b u t w h a t h a s h e t o d o w i t h u s . I – I d id n o t k n o w t h a t h e is a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C t o d e c i d e h o w t h e A N C m u s t d e a l w i th i ts m a t t e r s . W h a t i s h is p r o b l e m ? I s a i d t h a t h e – g o b a c k t o h i m t o s a y t h a t i s h is p r o b le m b u t h e s a i d w e w ill s h u t d o w n . Page 43 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 W e w i ll m a k e t h e R a n d fl a t o n th e g r o u n d . W e l l f i n e in d e e d t h e y d id i n t e r f e r e w i t h t h e l a n d – w i t h th e R a n d . I t h i n k t h e r e is o n e p e r s o n w h o c o n f e s s e d n o t l o n g – th is y e a r t h a t t h e y d i d s o a n d I k n e w e v e n a t t h a t ti m e i t w a s a d e l ib e r a te m o v e p a r t o f t h e a g e n d a . I n e v e r t h o u g h t I w o u ld b e n a s t y t o p e o p l e a n d I t h i n k I c a n b e n a s t y. I h a v e been over provoked. P e o p l e c o m in g s a y in g t h i n g s a b o u t m e b e c a u s e I a m n o t g o i n g t o r e v e n g e . P e r h a p s s o m e p e o p l e t h a t t h e p la n I a t th e b e g in n i n g t a lk e d a b o u t t h e y h a v e r e a c h e d th e p o i n t . W h e r e t h e y s a y t h e y w a n t e d 10 t h e m t o r e a c h I d o n o t k n o w. I h a v e s u r v iv e d a tt e m p ts t o k il l m e . P e o p l e lo o k i n g t o p o is o n m e o r b e in g i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e ir h a n d l e r s t o d o s o fi n a ll y p o is o n e d t h e v e r y d a n g e r o u s p o i s o n . A ll e m a n a t e s f r o m t h o s e p e o p l e w h o m a d e th e p l a n a t th e b e g in n i n g . A t s o m e p o i n t t h e y fe l t I a m n o t d is a p p e a r i n g a n d th e r e fo r e t h e y m u s t d e a l w i th m e . M a n y a t t e m p ts w e r e m a d e . Fi r s tl y t h e c o u r t is s u e f o r a n e x a m p l e w a s a w a y t o g e t m e o u t . I d o n o t t h i n k t h e r e is a c a s e i n th is c o u n t r y th a t fi n i s h e d 1 5 y e a r s g o in g i n a n d o u t e v e n i f t h e J u d g e s s a y t h e r e is n o c a s e h e r e . T h o s e w h o r e m e m b e r J u d g e Ms i m a n g – t h e la t e – s a i d th e r e 20 was no case and he took it out of court and those who remember J u d g e N ic h o l s o n s a i d th e r e is n o c a s e t h e r e . T h i s i s j u s t p o l i ti c s a n d in d e e d t h e t a p e s c o n f ir m w h a t N ic h o ls o n w a s s a y in g b u t n o n e w s p a p e r w i ll w r i t e t h a t b e c a u s e t h e n a r r a t iv e is d e a l w i t h Zu m a . I a m s t il l having the case. I h a v e m a d e a n a p p lic a ti o n t h a t t h e c a s e m u s t g o . Th e y d o Page 44 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 e v e r y t h i n g t o e n s u r e t h a t t h is c a s e is t h e r e b e c a u s e i t f e e d s to th e n a r r a t iv e Z u m a m u s t g o . E v e r y t h i n g I d o n o th in g . Th a t is w h y e v e n t h e n i n e y e a r s th a t I w a s in G o v e r n m e n t s o m e p e o p l e w ill s a y i t w a s a w a s te d ti m e . E v e n i f t h e y w e r e p a r ty t o i m p l e m e n t i n g d e c i s i o n s t h e y w e r e p a r ty ta k i n g t h o s e d e c is io n s b u t w h e n th e y ta lk a b o u t i t t h e y a r e out of it – Zuma must account. It is absolutely important that we accept the fact that there is s o m e t h i n g w e n e e d t o d e a l w i th a s a c o u n tr y. T h e v e r y f a c t th a t in t e l li g e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n s w h ic h t o d a y a r e k e y in s tr u m e n t s to r u n 10 c o u n tr i e s th e w a r t o d a y is f o u g h t a t in t e l li g e n c e l e v e l. N o l o n g e r a t t h e h a r d g u n s e tc e t e r a . A w o r r y i n g p o i n t i s t h a t o n e o f o u r i n t e l li g e n c e , w h ic h w a s s ti ll u n d e r th e h a n d s o f t h e a p a r th e id r e g i m e c o n s p ir e d w i t h t w o o th e r in t e l li g e n c e o r g a n is a t i o n s t o d o th i n g s i n o u r c o u n tr y, a n d i t m e a n s t h o s e w h o w e r e n e g o t i a t i n g w i t h u s ( s p e a k i n g is i Z u lu ) b e c a u s e w e a ls o k n o w th a t a t t h e t i m e a d e c i s i o n w a s t a k e n t h a t s o m e o f t h e a g e n ts w h o h a d b e e n o p e r a ti n g , g e t t in g p a y fr o m t h e a p a r th e id r e g i m e t h a t t h e a p a r t h e i d r e g i m e t h o u g h t th a t t h e y w e r e n o t k n o w n b y t h e A N C , t h e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e in t e l l ig e n c e o r g a n is a ti o n h e r e a n d t h e U n i t e d S t a te s t h a t t h o s e s h o u l d b e t a k e n w i t h th e i r f il e s t o t h e m , 20 b u t t h e y w il l r e m a i n w i t h u s a n d th e y r e m a in e d w i th u s a n d t h e y a r e among us. A n d t h e r e f o r e t h e y h a v e th e ir b o s s e s , th e y ’ r e h a n d l e d t o d o t h i n g s h e r e , a n d th a t ’s w h y s o m e o f t h e m w e r e r u s h i n g t o c o m e h e r e b e c a u s e t h e y f o u n d a p la t f o r m t o d e a l w i t h Z u m a . When, and I must say this, when we were in the – in exile at Page 45 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 s o m e p o in t h a v i n g d o n e a n u m b e r o f t h in g s , t h e o r g a n is a ti o n g a v e m e t h e t a s k o f – to b e C h ie f o f In t e l li g e n c e , a n d t h e r e ’s a p a r t ic u l a r s p y t h a t I w o u ld s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t , h e w a s K o z v a f[ ? ] b u t h e h a d g iv e n h i m s e l f t h e n a m e F e a r, w h o in f il tr a te d t h e A N C a n d c a u s e d a l o t o f d a m a g e a n d w h e n b e c a u s e I h a d h a d p r o b l e ms w i t h h i m w h e n I w a s d o i n g o t h e r w o r k , w h e n I w a s h e r e I m a d e it a p o i n t t h a t w e a r e c o m i n g t o g r ip s w i th t h i s . S o m e p e o p l e h a v e w r i t te n a b o o k w i t h s o m e in f o r m a ti o n , d is t o r t e d i n f o r m a t i o n o n t h is p a r t ic u l a r c h a r a c t e r, a s t h e y w e r e tr y i n g t o 10 g iv e t h e s c e n e s o f Z u m a in s o m e b o o k s . H e o p e r a t e d i n S w a z il a n d a n d c a u s e d p e o p le t o d ie . W e s u d d e n ly a r r e s t e d h i m a n d i n d e e d h e c o n fe s s e d h e w a s a s p y, w e l l tr a i n e d , b e f o r e h e w a s a s t u d e n t in t h e W e s t e r n C a p e b u t h e d i d n o t fi n i s h b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a s tr ik e , t h e y w e r e c h a s e d o u t , h e w e n t to D u r b a n t o h i s s is te r, a n d d u r i n g t h a t ti m e h e w a s r e c r u i t e d b y t h e R e g i m e , w a s t a k e n t o tr a in i n g f o r s i x m o n th s h o w t o b e a s p y, a n d tr a i n e d th r o u g h th e A N C li t e r a tu r e , s o t h a t w h e n h e c o m e s t o e x il e h e m u s t l o o k lik e a b r ig h t s t u d e n t w h o c a t c h e s s o q u ic k ly a n d y e t h e h a s b e e n t a u g h t a n d t h e m a t e r i a l h e h a s b e e n t a u g h t h e r e b y t h e A p a r th e id R e g i m e . 20 H e c a m e w i th h i s w i fe , t h e r e is a lo n g s t o r y a b o u t h i m , a n d t h e w i f e h e r s e l f w a s s e n t s o t h e y h a d a m a r r i a g e t h a t w a s a u t h o r is e d b y t h e p o li c e , a t th e r ig h t ti m e , p a r t o f t h e c o v e r. A n d h e w a s fi n a l ly a r r e s t e d and confessed. C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, I d i d n ’ t h e a r t h e w o r d s , t h e w i f e h e r s e l f w a s – is it s a c k e d ? Page 46 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry? CHAIRPERSON: I d id n ’t h e a r w h a t y o u s a i d a b o u t t h e w i f e , d i d y o u s a y h i s w i fe w a s s a c k e d . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I s a i d , j a w a s s e n t b y t h e p o l ic e b y th e S p e c ia l Br a n c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w a s s e n t b y t h e p o l ic e . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a , fr o m h o m e t o j o i n h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u . Ye s ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: When he was detained he asked 10 t o s e e m e , a n d I s a w h i m w i th th e C o mr a d e s ( in d is ti n c t) w h e r e h e w a s s a y in g I h a v e w r i t te n m y c o n f e s s i o n , h e r e it i s , b u t I j u s t w a n t e d t o c o m e a n d t a lk t o y o u . I s a w h a tr e d , if I f o u n d y o u s l e e p i n g w h e n t h e r e w a s n o o n e I w o u l d c u t y o u r th r o a t. H e s a i d i t t o o k m e t i m e t o c o n f e s s because I have been more loyal to the Regime of Government regarding t h e A N C , b u t I t h o u g h t it is i m p o r t a n t f o r m e t o t e l l th e tr u t h n o w. T h a t a g e n t k n e w a n u m b e r o f o t h e r s w h o a r e in t h e m o v e m e n t , b e c a u s e h e w a s o n e o f h i g h ly r e g a r d e d s p i e s o f t h e r e g i m e . A s s o o n a s h e d i d c o n f e s s i o n h e a s p o i s o n e d a n d d ie d , b u t h e h a d g iv e n t h e l is t o f o t h e r s b e c a u s e h e k n e w t h e m , a n d m a n y c o m r a d e s l o s t t h e ir li v e s 20 b e c a u s e o f th e w o r k o f th a t p e r s o n . H e e v e n m a d e c o m r a d e s i n s i d e th e c o u n tr y to l o s e th e ir l iv e s i f h e w a s in s t r u c t e d t o g iv e C A D A S in s t r u c t i o n s t o k ill p e o p le in s i d e . O n e o f th e c o m r a d e s w a s i n K Z N , t h a t h e d i d s o , s e n t i n n o c e n t c o m r a d e s to t h a t c o mr a d e t o s a y h e is a s p y w h e n h e w a s n o t a s p y. Much as I have a view about spies and everything but we had a code to Page 47 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 o p e r a t e t h a t w e h a n d l e t h i s w it h c a r e , b u t I t h i n k o t h e r s p i e s w h o h a v e b e e n s i t t in g a r o u n d ( s p e a k in g i s i Z u l u ) . Yo u k n o w j u s t r e c e n tly th e r e w a s a fu n c t i o n i n D u r b a n w h e r e t h e M a s k a n d ie s [ ? ] w a n t e d t o fe e l t h e s t a d i u m . Some of those people o n e t h i n g y o u k n o w th e y p l a n n e d t o m u r d e r m e i n s i d e t h e s t a d i u m , a n d I know them, they planned to murder me. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h i s a r e fe r e n c e t o s o m e o f t h o s e p e o p l e w h o m a y h a v e a p p e a r e d in t h e lis t t h a t w a s l e ft b e h in d b y t h e s p y w h o w a s p o is o n e d ? 10 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: So me of them. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h a t s a v e d m y li f e is b e c a u s e I d i d n o t g o t h e r e . T h is is a n a tt e m p t o n m y l i fe , t h e r e h a v e b e e n p e o p l e s e n t f r o m o u ts id e t h e c o u n tr y t o c o m e a n d k i ll m e , b u t I h a v e b e e n p a t ie n t , n o t s a y i n g a t h in g , b u t I h a v e b e e n p r o v o k e d t o t h e l a s t degree. Ye s I h a v e g o t t h e l is t a n d a n o th e r l is t a s w e l l, b u t t h a t ’s n o t t h e b u s i n e s s o f m e t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e m a t t e r s h e r e , b u t it is i m p o r ta n t , it is i m p o r t a n t f o r m e s o t h a t y o u c a n s e e t h e b e h a v i o u r o f p e o p l e . 20 W h a t m a d e C o m r a d e N g o a k o t o b e h a v e t h e w a y h e d id h e r e , s a y i n g t h a t I h a v e a u c ti o n e d t h e c o u n tr y, in t h e A N C I j u s t d o w h a t I lik e , h e is c a r r y i n g o u t a n i n s tr u c ti o n . H e w a s r e c r u i t e d w h e n h e w a s a s t u d e n t i n L e s o t h o t o b e a s p y. C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e l e t ’s n o t c la p , t h a n k y o u . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: And he finds it very comfortable Page 48 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t o c o m e h e r e a n d s a y th is Z u m a h e w a s a g o o d m a n , a n d I h a v e k n o w n h i m f o r y e a r s , w h a t h e is , b u t I h a v e n e v e r s h o w n i t , b e c a u s e I th o u g h t h e w il l c h a n g e . S o m e o t h e r p e o p l e h a v e m a d e t h e m s e lv e s v e r y n ic e , jo in s o m e t h in g c a ll e d O n e H u n d r e d a n d O n e a n d s a i d a l o t o f t h i n g s about me, some of them that I commanded, and some of them who c o m m a n d e d t h e o t h e r c o mr a d e s b u t t h e y a r e n o t k n o w n a n d p e r h a p s p e o p l e w i ll r e a lis e w h y t h e r e s e e m t o b e s o m e p r o b l e m s , s o m e h o w, somewhere. I t h i n k it i s i m p o r ta n t f o r p e o p l e t o b e h a v e c o r r e c tl y, s o th a t 10 they don’t cause problems. Some of the people I have loved, I have w o r k e d w i t h th e m , tr u s t e d t h e m , e v e n w h e n I g o t t o k n o w, b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t m a y b e t h e y h a v e le f t t h e w r o n g w a y s . Th e c r i t ic a l p o in t i s t h a t t h e p la n m a d e w a y b a c k h a s b e e n w o r k i n g a n d o u r e n e m i e s in f a c t h a v e r e c r u it e d m o r e e v e n th a n d u r in g th e s tr u g g le . T h a t is w h y y o u w il l s e e th i n g s w h e n p e o p l e a r e d o i n g t h i n g s in th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h d o e s n ’ t l o o k lik e A N C , i t is s o m e o f t h e m w h o in fl u e n c e s t h is C o m m i s s io n t o b u r y Z u m a , a n d I a m s u r e i n t h e d is c u s s io n s a s w e g o I w i ll b e l o o k i n g a t th in g s a n d s a y in g w h a t e ls e . I w a n t p e a c e , I w a n t h a r m o n y a n d t h a t is w h y e v e n t h o s e w h o 20 h a v e d o n e th i n g s to m e I a m n o t f e e l in g p i ti a b l e , b u t s o m e – s o m e o f t h e m h a d e v e n c o l l e c te d i n f o r m a t i o n , g a v e i t t o t h e w r i t e r s w h o w r i t e b o o k s a b o u t m e . M a y b e a t s o m e p o i n t i n t h e d is c u s s i o n s h e r e I m i g h t c o m e b a c k t o th is i s s u e in t h e C o m m i s s i o n , w h i ls t t h e C o m m i s s i o n s ti ll c o n ti n u e s , b u t I th o u g h t I s h o u l d d e a l w i t h o n e w h o h a s s a id t o m e I h a v e a u c ti o n e d th e c o u n tr y t o t h e G u p t a s . O th e r s h a v e s a i d th in g s o u t Page 49 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h e r e b u t t h e t i m e is th e r e t o d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s , a ll I a m s a y in g i t is i m p o r t a n t f o r y o u C h a ir t o r e a l is e t h a t s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h a r e v e r y b i g a n d v e r y d e e p a n d i t is i m p o r t a n t to k n o w t h e r e is a p la n t h a t is b e in g i m p l e m e n te d a g a in s t Z u m a , a n d it g e ts i n , in m a n y w a y s . I must come here and answer questions about people of who p e r h a p s – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t q u e s t io n s a r e t h e r e , b u t t h e o n e s I h a v e h e a r d s o f a r I t h o u g h t t h a t s o m e b o d y i s g o i n g t o s a y Z u m a is h i d i n g s o m e t h i n g w i th t h e G u p ta s , o r s o m e t h i n g , s o m e t h i n g , s o t h a t le a v e s m e 10 w i t h w h a t is i t th a t I h a v e d o n e w r o n g , b u t i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o b r i n g Z u m a h e r e , s o t h a t t h e n a r r a t iv e g r o w s , h e r e is Z u m a b e i n g q u e s ti o n e d a b o u t h is r e l a t i o n s h ip w i th t h e G u p t a s e tc e t e r a , w h a t i s w r o n g w i th t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p ? Nothing wrong, and then but many other people have fr i e n d s to t h e s e c o m r a d e s , t h e y a r e n o t th e is s u e , th e i s s u e is Zu m a . N o w a s y o u c a ll i t t h e in f o r m a ti o n a n d y o u w a lk t o w a r d s m a k i n g c o n c lu s i o n s I th o u g h t th a t t h is is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I s a y p a r tly b e c a u s e s o m e p e o p l e a r e p a r t o f t h e p l o t t o k il l m e , p e r h a p s i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t b e f o r e I d i e I t e l l th e s t o r y. I a m t e ll i n g y o u i f I c a n t e ll y o u t h e d e t a i ls o f t h e p l a n t o k il l m e i n D u r b a n w a s d e ta il e d , d e ta il e d . 20 I t i n v o lv e d p e o p l e b r o u g h t f r o m o u ts i d e o f t h e c o u n tr y. ( S p e a k in g is i Z u l u ) w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o to m e , a n d p e r h a p s th a t w il l m a k e y o u r e a l is e th a t f o r m e t h e m a tt e r is b i g g e r t h a n i t m e e ts t h e e y e , a n d I h a v e b e e n r e s p e c t fu l t o c o m r a d e s , a n d t o p e o p l e I k n o w, m a y b e I h a v e r e a c h e d a p o in t w h e r e t h a t m u s t n o w t a k e a n o t h e r b a c k s e a t . c o n c o c t e v e r y th i n g ju s t t o d e a l w i t h Zu m a . Page 50 of 101 They 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A s p a r t o f t h i s n a r r a tiv e t h e r e i s a b o o k – o r s o r r y t h e b o o k is – t h e r e is a f il m w h ic h is b e i n g m a d e a b o u t t h e c a s e th a t to o k p l a c e , a n d I w a s fo u n d n o t g u i l ty, r a p e c a s e . T h e r e is a j o u r n a li s t i n S o u t h A fr ic a w h o is d o in g th a t o n e , R a d ie r K a b l e [? ] , i t ’s b e i n g d o n e o u t s i d e , t o s a y Z u m a i s a r a p is t , i t f it s i n t h i s n a r r a ti v e , s h e h a s b e e n d o i n g i t i n t h e m e d ia w h e r e s h e w o r k s , R a d ie r, b e c a u s e t h is n a r r a t iv e m u s t b e d o n e . T h e q u e s t i o n I a s k t h e m t h e s e p e o p l e w h o d o – w h o p a r ti c i p a t e in i t w h e r e d o t h e y g e t t h e i d e a th a t Zu m a m u s t b e p u t d o w n ? Who in s t r u c t s t h e m ? 10 P e r h a p s i t is i m p o r t a n t t o l o o k i n t o t h i s m a t te r m a n y ti m e s , a n d s a y w h a t c a n w e d o ? W e h a v e a c o u n tr y t o s a v e , b u t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o d o n o t c a r e , w h o w a n t t o g i v e n e g a t iv it y i n t e r m s o f w h a t w e d o i n t h is c o u n t r y. I h a v e r e s i g n e d a s a s k e d b y m y N a t io n a l E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e , a n d I a m s t a y in g t h e r e , f a r a w a y, b u t e v e n w h e n I a m s ta y i n g th e r e t h e r e is a p l o t t o k il l m e . W h e n I a m n o l o n g e r i n a n y a c ti v i ty, e x c e p t a tt e n d i n g t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e m e e t i n g s o f t h e A N C , a s a member of the ANC. W e ll a s t h e C o m m i s s i o n g o e s I m i g h t c o m e b a c k w i t h o t h e r 20 m a t t e r s b u t I t h o u g h t i t i s j u s t i m p o r ta n t a t t h is p o i n t to ta k e t h e m a t t e r up to here. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Z u m a . I th in k i t is g o o d th a t y o u d e c i d e d t o t e l l t h e C o m m i s s io n w h a t y o u h a v e t o ld i t , b e c a u s e a s y o u r c o u n s e l in d ic a t e d t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a d i n d ic a te d th a t p a r t o f w h a t Page 51 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 it w o u l d l ik e t o h e a r is y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y a n d t h a t th e n t h e r e w o u l d b e a l s o q u e s t io n s , s o i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t h a t y o u b e g i v e n th a t o p p o r t u n i ty. W e a r e a t fi v e p a s t o n e , w e w il l ta k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w, a n d w e w ill r e s u m e a t q u a r te r p a s t tw o . We adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S o r r y C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s M r Zu m a y e s . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I ju s t t w o p o i n ts I j u s t w a n t e d to make. C H A I R P E R S O N : To m a k e . Ye s . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . I fo r g o t m e n ti o n t h e n a m e of the movie that is being done by Redi in the United States. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A : B e c a u s e I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e th e n a m e o f t h e m o v i e – c r o s s in g w i t h m y – t h e n a m e o f t h e m o v i e is R a p e d b y P o w e r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : R a p e d b y P o w e r. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : R a p e d b y P o w e r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Thank you. Ye s I t h o u g h t t h e r e i s a s e c o n d point. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e s e c o n d p o in t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 52 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h e n I ta lk e d a b o u t R a l p h w h o h a d o r g a n i s e d a n a t t a c k w h e n h e w a s t o b e c o n f r o n te d b e c a u s e th e r e a s o n w h y y o u h a d th a t a t ta c k h e h a d b e e n a r r e s t e d b y t h e S w a z i p o li c e a n d le a k e d in f o r m a t io n a b o u t t h e w o r k t h e y a r e d o i n g i n S w a z il a n d . A n d t h e n h is c o m m a n d e r t h e c o m m a n d e r o f t h e g r o u p a n d o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h e g r o u p w e r e v e r y a g i t a t e d a b o u t t h is . W h y d i d h e g iv e i n f o r m a ti o n t o t h e S w a s i ’s ? S o t h e y … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d b e t o t h e S w a z i g o v e r n m e n t? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S w a z i g o v e r n m e n t ja . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: When he was arrested. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : H e th e n – th e c o m m a n d e r s a i d , le t u s g o to M a p u to s o th a t w e c a n d is c u s s t h i s m a tt e r. K n o w in g th a t h e w a s g o i n g t o M a p u t o h e t h e n p h o n e d h is h a n d le r i n S o u t h A fr i c a t o say he must be rescued. H e is b e in g t a k e n to M a p u t o th e y m i g h t perhaps never see him again. So he needed them to undertake an o p e r a ti o n a g a i n s t h is c o ll e a g u e s . S o h e g a v e t h e m d e s c r i p ti o n o f w h e r e t h e y w e r e s l e e p i n g . Th e y w o u ld h a v e w o k e n u p a t a b o u t f o u r - is h 20 t o w a lk w h il e i t is d a r k t o c r o s s to M o z a m b i q u e a n d h e t o ld th e m w h e r e h e w a s s le e p i n g a n d w h e r e e v e r y b o d y w a s s le e p i n g . S o th e a t t a c k h a p p e n e d t o h is w i n d o w w i t h a c a n i s te r … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r o u g h h i s w in d o w ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a . T h r o u g h h is w i n d o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 53 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: B u t h e w e n t o u t th r o u g h t h a t w i n d o w a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o h i m a n d e v e n t h e b e d w a s n e v e r – th e b e d s h o w e d t h a t n o b o d y h a d e v e r o p e n e d th e b l a n k e t s w h o c o m e h e w a s s l e e p i n g o n to p o f i t w h ic h m e a n s h e w a s w a i ti n g f o r t h e s e p e o p l e . T h e n i n th e m o r n in g h e w a s d e t a i n e d b y t h e S w a z i ’s o n c e a g a in . T h e n f e w d a y a f t e r t h e d e t e n ti o n c o n n iv in g b o t h S w a z i’s a n d t h e s e c u r i ty p o li c e f r o m h e r e w a n t e d t o r e l e a s e h i m b e c a u s e h e w a s v e r y i m p o r ta n t . B u t t h e y w a n t e d t o t e s t t h e w a t e r s a s t o i s h e b e i n g s u s p e c te d o f t h is o r w h a t? 10 A n d t h e y – t h e y d i d s o m e t h in g a n d a s k s o m e b o d y w h e n h e c o m e s o u t a ft e r a r r e s t – s o m e b o d y t o h u g h i m a s t h e y g r e e t . T h a t h u g w a s i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i t w i ll b e s a y in g h e is i n n o c e n t . In o th e r w o r d s n o b o d y is a n g r y fo r h i m t h a t h e m i g h t b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h is . T h e i n fo r m a ti o n w a s – s o t h a t h u g w a s a r r a n g e d b y t h e p o li c e a n d s o m e b o d y w h o h u g g e d h i m h a d b e e n g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n s to d o s o . A n d t h a t w a s G e n e r a l S ip h i w e N y a n d a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e a r e t h e t w o p o i n t s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . Yo u w il l 20 b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s b y M r P r e t o r iu s . I w i ll a ls o a s k q u e s ti o n s fr o m ti m e t o ti m e . I f t h e r e is a n y t h in g y o u – a n y q u e s ti o n y o u d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d s a y s o a n d i t w i ll b e r e p e a t e d o r c l a r i f ie d . T h a n k y o u . M r P r e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Z u m a – C h a ir b e f o r e a s k in g q u e s t io n s a n d b e f o r e m a k in g a f e w r e m a r k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 54 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I b e l ie v e i t i s i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e le g a l te a m i ts e l f to p l a c e c e r t a i n m a t te r s o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Given what has been said this m o r n in g a n d w h a t m ig h t b e s a i d i n fu t u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t m a y b e th a t s o m e o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t I w a n t t o r a is e n o w o r p la c e o n r e c o r d n o w h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n p la c e d o n r e c o r d b y y o u r s e l f b u t I d o b e l ie v e i t i s i m p o r ta n t t h a t 10 t h e le g a l t e a m t o o p la c e i ts p o s i ti o n o n r e c o r d . T h e fir s t p o i n t i s t h a t th is c o m m i s s i o n is a t t h is s t a g e a t l e a s t in v e s t i g a t in g m a t t e r s c o v e r e d b y t h e te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . in v e s t i g a t io n . It is an T h a t m e a n s i t is n o t a tr i a l w h e r e w e s e e k t o p r o v e a p r e d e t e r m in e d o r p l e a d e d o r c h a r g e d c a s e a n d f o r t h a t r e a s o n to o t h e r e is n o c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n . C r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n c a n o n ly t a k e p la c e b y p r i o r p e r m is s i o n g r a n t e d b y y o u r C h a ir a n d i t i s n o t l ik e l y t h a t w e w i ll ask for such. O u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e m a n d a te u s t o in v e s t i g a t e v a r io u s m a t t e r s u n d e r t h e b r o a d h e a d in g S ta t e C a p t u r e , Fr a u d a n d C o r r u p ti o n 20 a n d i t is p u r s u a n t t o t h a t m a n d a t e th a t y o u C h a ir h a v e i n v it e d Mr Z u m a t o a t te n d . Fi r s tl y to a s s is t c o m m i s s io n h is v e r s i o n . the The commission by p r e s e n ti n g f a c ts a s h e s e e s to th e them and h is u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h o s e fa c ts a s w e ll a s r e l e v a n t m a tt e r s c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h o s e is s u e s . Page 55 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A n d i n p a r tic u l a r t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e p r e c e d i n g a n d a t t h e t i m e o f t h e i n v i ta t io n t o Mr Z u m a s p e c i fi e s m a t t e r s r a is e d in t h e e v i d e n c e o f a li s t o f s p e c i f ie d w i t n e s s e s a n d I w il l li s t t h o s e in d u e c o u r s e . A n d t h e s e c o n d p o i n t is t h a t y o u – y o u r in v i ta t io n i n v it e d M r Z u m a t o a t t e n d – t o a n s w e r q u e s t io n s i n r e l a ti o n t o th o s e m a t t e r s a n d t h e w o r d in g o f t h e i n v i t a ti o n is s p e c i fic . I t i s m a t t e r s r a is e d b y th e w i t n e s s e s w h ic h h a v e m e n t io n e d M r Zu m a o r a r e r e l a te d t o h i m in o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r. U lt i m a t e ly it i s M r Zu m a ’s k n o w l e d g e , e x p e r i e n c e a n d o w n e r l e d g e d i n v o lv e m e n t i n m a t t e r s r a i s e d b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s io n t h a t 10 w e s e e k t o i n v e s ti g a te f u r th e r. T h e w i t n e s s e s s p e c if i e d i n th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o w h o m o r i n r e l a ti o n t o w h o s e e v id e n c e q u e s ti o n s w il l b e a s k e d a r e M r M a s e k o , M s M e n to r, M i n i s te r N e n e o r f o r m e r M i n i s te r N e n e r a t h e r, M i n is t e r G o r d h a n , M s H o g a n , M r R a m a t h l o d i , Mr M u o fh e , Mr M b a lu la a n d M i n is te r M b u l u la a n d M r A g r iz z i . Th o s e a r e t h e w i t n e s s e s t o w h o m q u e s t io n s w il l b e l i m i te d . Perhaps at another occasion Mr Zuma q u e s t io n s w il l b e a s k e d i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f o t h e r w i t n e s s e s b u t i t h a s b e e n s t a te d s p e c if ic a l ly in c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t t h a t q u e s t i o n s r e la t e d t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f th o s e w i tn e s s e s a n d 20 m a t t e r s r a is e d b y s u c h w i t n e s s e s to w h ic h M r Z u m a m a y b e r e l a te d i n one way or another may be asked. T h e n M r Z u m a a n d it I … CHAIRPERSON: Oh you are done. Before you ask any questions A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e I m u s t j u s t a ls o m a k e t h is p o i n t c l e a r t h a t n o w Page 56 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h a t y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d t o t h e fa c t th a t M r Z u m a w a s i n v i t e d h e r e . L e t m e m a k e i t c l e a r t h e d e c i s i o n t o a s k M r Z u m a to a p p e a r h e r e w a s m i n e a n d m in e a lo n e . A n d I b e l i e v e d i t w a s th e r ig h t t h i n g . I w a n t t o h e a r h is s id e o f th e s to r y b u t a l s o I w a n t a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r th e c o m m is s i o n t o p u t q u e s ti o n s to h i m . T h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w a s e x c h a n g e d c a n b e ta k e n a s fr o m m e a s w e l l. S o i f t h e r e is a n y c r it ic is m i t c a n b e d ir e c t e d to m e . T h a n k you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r Z u m a t o b e g i n w e h a v e h e a r d 10 t h e n a r r a t iv e a n d t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n t h i s m o r n in g a n d w e w o u ld a p p r e c ia t e t i m e to c o n s i d e r i t i n i ts f u ll d e t a i l b u t fr o m t h e l e g a l t e a m s ’ p o i n t o f v i e w w e c a n a s s u r e y o u t h a t i n s o fa r a s t h e i s s u e s y o u h a v e r a is e d f a l l w i t h i n o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a s t h e y a p p e a r a t fi r s t g l a n c e to f a l l w i t h i n o u r t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e w e w il l i n v e s t ig a t e fu r t h e r a n d w e tr u s t w i t h y o u r a s s is t a n c e . B u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t y o u s a y t h a t i n t h e e a r ly 9 0 ’s a c o n s p ir a c y o r p la n a n d y o u h a v e u s e d b o t h w o r d s w a s h a tc h e d a n d y o u h a v e u s e d t h e w o r d s t o g e t r id o f y o u a n d y o u h a v e a ls o t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t t h a t c o n s p ir a c y o r p l a n w a s h a tc h e d b y t w o f o r e i g n i n t e ll i g e n c e 20 a g e n c ie s in c o n j u n c ti o n w i t h a S o u t h A f r ic a n In t e l li g e n c e A g e n c y, is that correct? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . W h a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u a s n a r r a t e d b y y o u b e tw e e n t h e e a r ly 9 0 ’s a n d n o w s o m e 2 9 y e a r s h a s la r g e l y b e e n p a r t o f t h e e x e c u ti o n o f t h is p l a n o r c o n s p ir a c y a s I Page 57 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 u n d e r s t a n d y o u e v id e n c e . I f y o u w o u l d s a y y e s b e c a u s e y o u r n o d w il l not be picked up. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . O k a y, o k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u M r Z u m a . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Okay yes. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d d o I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t ly to s a y a n d t h i s is w h a t – is w h a t m i g h t b r in g y o u r e v i d e n c e s q u a r e ly w i t h i n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h i s c o m m i s s i o n t h a t th is c o m m i s s io n i ts e lf is th e c u l m i n a ti o n o f th a t c o n s p ir a c y ? 10 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I s a i d s o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . Th e e v id e n c e o f th e 9 w i t n e s s e s t h a t I h a v e m e n ti o n e d I a m h a p p y t o r e p e a t th e m i f y o u w i s h . Yo u m a y w a n t m e t o d o s o h a s th a t e v id e n c e fo r m e d p a r t o f t h is c o n s p ir a c y g e n e r a lly s p e a k i n g . W e c a n g e t to t h e d e ta il i n a m o m e n t ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: N o I d i d n o t n e c e s s a r il y s a y i t f o r m s p a r t fr o m t h e m a s in d iv i d u a ls a n d I a m n o t s a y i n g i t a l s o i t d o e s n o t . B e c a u s e t h e y c a m e h e r e o n s p e c if ic d e t a i ls . I t h i n k m y c o n t e n t i o n is t h a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c t o r w a s a s k e d t o in v e s t i g a t e t h is s p e c i fi c m a t t e r a n d w h e n s h e h a d n o m o n e y s h e w a s 20 g iv e n m o n e y to d o s o . A n d I th in k c a r e f u l l y c r a f te d h o w t o n a m e i t s o I a m s a y in g th e c o m m i s s i o n . I a m n o t s a y in g w h o e v e r c o m e s h e r e to g iv e e v i d e n c e i s t h e r e f o r e p a r t o f th a t o n e e x c e p t w h e n I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t o n e i n d iv id u a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: W h o s a id I h a v e a u c ti o n e d th e Page 58 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 c o u n tr y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l t h a t q u e s ti o n p e r h a p s c a n b e m o r e f u l ly a n s w e r e d w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t th e e v i d e n c e i n m o r e d e ta il . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e fi r s t w i tn e s s o n t h e li s t i s M r M a s e k o w h o g a v e e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n . recent days a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s . set of documents was handed to your In legal Th e r e w e r e tw o b u n d l e s – C h a ir y o u h a v e t h e t w o b u n d l e s . It is b u n d l e G G A a n d b u n d l e G G B . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I d o h a v e b u t I s e e t h a t M r Z u m a d o e s n o t h a v e a n y th in g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h a t i s w h y … C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h is c o u n s e l … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m i n t r o d u c i n g t h e m n o w C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k l e t u s – le t m e h e a r h is c o u n s e l . I think he in d i c a t e s h e w a n t s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t i t . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : C h a ir C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: 20 I do not have the documents and he does not. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . D o – d o y o u – m y u n d e r s t a n d in g M r S ik h a k h a n e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s th a t tw o le v e r a r c h fi le s w e r e s e r v e d o n y o u r in s t r u c t i n g a t t o r n e y a b o u t t w o w e e k s a g o i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . Yo u – I do not know if you – you… A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: I d o n o t k n o w – w e ll h i s – h e is h e r e Page 59 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 b e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e t h e m a n d I h a v e a s k e d t h e m . I w il l a s k h i m t o d e a l w it h t h e q u e s t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: I do not have them and I do not know w h e t h e r M r [i n d is t in c t] [ n o t s p e a k i n g i n to m ic r o p h o n e ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : I d o n o t k n o w. M r M a n t s h a i s h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a t is fi n e . M r P r e t o r iu s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 T h e y w e r e d e l iv e r e d o n th e 1 J u l y t o t h e o ffi c e s o f M r M a n t s h a th e a t t o r n e y s o f r e c o r d o f t h e f o r m e r President. CHAIRPERSON: Do we have any proof of receipt? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : W e ll w e c a n o b ta i n . J u s t g e t i t . W e w i ll o b t a i n i t n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r S ih k a k h a n e . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: C h a ir m a y b e le t m e r a i s e t h i s b e c a u s e i t h a s b e e n – i t i s t h e p r o b l e m I w a s t r y i n g to a v o i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : It is tr u ly t h e p r o b le m . 20 a n d I s a w t h e a c r i m o n io u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . U n t il t h e 2 4 t h J u n e I am not – I was not a p a r t y to t h a t is t h a t I t h i n k w h e n th a t – w h e n th a t b r o k e d o w n – t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p w e w e r e tr y in g w h e n it b r o k e d o w n I b e li e v e th a t w h e n w e a s k e d th e c o m m i s s i o n a b o u t d e ta il s e v e n t h e s e f il e s t h a t a r e d e l iv e r e d o n ly y o u h a v e u n d e r ta k e n t o c o m e i f t h e y w e r e d e l iv e r e d . T h e s e f il e s c o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o u s e a r li e r. R e a l ly, r e a ll y I d o n o t s e e – u n le s s Page 60 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h e y h a v e s t u ff t h a t o n l y c a m e t h e n . I a m j u s t r a is i n g th is b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h is p r o c e s s is n o t r u n l ik e a n a m b u s h t o o l s o t h a t i t m u s t a s s is t y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: And the fact that these documents unless y o u a r e t o l d b y Mr Pr e t o r i u s t h a t t h e y c o n t a i n t h i n g s t h e y o b ta in e d la t e r t h e r e i s a b s o l u t e ly n o r e a s o n w h y t h e y c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n g iv e n e a r l ie r a n d t h e p r o b le m w e w e r e c o m p l a i n i n g a b o u t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a v e r te d . A n d I d o n o t h a v e t h e m a n d I – t h a t is w h y I k e e p s a y i n g … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Mr M a n ts h a m a y d e a l w i t h th e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE: B u t t h is is h o w t h e c o m m i s s i o n w a n ts t o d e a l w it h i t . CHAIRPERSON: M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e y w e r e p r e p a r e d a s a m a t t e r o f c a u t io n b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t y o u r in s t r u c t i n g a t t o r n e y h a d in d i c a t e d t h a t n o t a ll t h e w i tn e s s s t a t e m e n t s h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d b y h i m a n d t h e y w e r e p r e p a r e d t o i n c l u d e a l l w i t n e s s s t a te m e n ts a n d a n n e x u r e s a n d t h a t w e r e d e e m e d r e le v a n t s o t h a t 20 w h ic h e v e r o n e s h e m ig h t n o t h a v e r e c e iv e d w o u l d b e t h e r e . My u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t fr o m t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s s id e a p p a r e n t ly m a y b e o n e h a d n o t b e e n s e n t o t h e r w i s e t h e r e s t h a d b e e n s e n t b u t Mr P r e to r i u s c a n ta lk m o r e . B u t w e w i ll h a v e to f i n d a w a y o f h o w t o m a k e s u r e t h e r e i s f a ir n e s s . ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE: I think so Page 61 of 101 C h a ir and I t h in k the 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 correspondence… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: B e tw e e n t h e t w o a tt o r n e y s j a I t h i n k i t c a n i m p r o v e b e c a u s e i t is b e g in n in g to a ff e c t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE: An innocent witness. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a n k y o u . M r P r e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : q u e s t io n fir s t . 10 W e l l C h a ir t o a n s w e r th e l a t e r Th e r e is a n a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o n t h e 1 s t J u ly 2 0 1 9 o f r e c e i p t o f t h e t w o fi l e s . I c a n h a n d th a t u p i f y o u w is h . B u t a l s o a – a n e l e c tr o n ic c o p y o f t h e e v i d e n c e b u n d l e w a s s e n t o n th e 1 s t J u ly a s w e l l. B u t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d th a t to b e d is p u t e d n o w r a t h e r th e ti m i n g o f th e d e li v e r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A p p e a r s to b e a n is s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : May I just say that I can go t h r o u g h a l l th e w i tn e s s e s o f th e n in e i n d e ta il b u t p e r h a p s o n l y in r e l a ti o n t o Mr M a s e k o a R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e w a s s e n t o n t h e 2 A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 20 t o t h e a t to r n e y s o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t . D e l iv e r y c o n fir m a t i o n w a s r e c e i v e d o n t h e 3 A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 a n d a tt a c h e d t o th e d e li v e r y w e r e t h e t w o s ta t e m e n ts o f M r M a s e k o . A f u l l e v id e n c e b u n d l e i n r e la t io n t o annexures was sent on the 17 August 2018. R i g h t. S o a l l th is d o c u m e n t a ti o n in r e la t io n t o M r M a s e k o w a s s e n t l a s t y e a r i n A u g u s t a n d w a s r e s p o n d e d t o i n t h e s e n s e t h a t th e r e i s w r i t t e n c o n f ir m a ti o n o f Page 62 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h e f a c t t h a t th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e s t a t e m e n t s w e r e c o n s i d e r e d a n d i t w a s fe l t t h a t Mr Z u m a w a s n o t i m p li c a t e d th e r e b y. B u t b e t h a t a s it m a y i t l e a v e s u s in th e p o s i ti o n n o w w h e n f o r s o m e r e a s o n o r a n o t h e r a n d I d o n o t t h i n k th e f a u l t c a n b e la i d a t t h e d o o r o f th e c o m m i s s i o n a t a l l t h e w i t n e s s is u n p r e p a r e d . T h e r e a r e t w o w a y s o f d e a l in g w i th t h a t . I c a n d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s t i o n s m o r e s lo w l y a n d i n r e l a ti o n t o e a c h d o c u m e n t o r p i e c e o f th e w i tn e s s ’s e v i d e n c e a ll o w th e – M r Zu m a ti m e t o c o n s i d e r i t. B u t o t h e r th a n t h a t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t th e r e i s a n y r e a s o n t o d e l a y t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s a n y fu r t h e r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d d o i s I s h o u ld a d j o u r n m a y b e f o r a fe w m in u t e s t o a ll o w y o u a n d c o u n s e l fo r M r Zu m a t o lo o k a t w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e a n y d o c u m e n ts i n th e s e tw o fi le s t h a t t h e y h a v e n e v e r r e c e iv e d . B e c a u s e o b v io u s ly t h o s e t h a t t h e y h a d r e c e i v e d a n d s in c e i t w a s s p e c if i e d w h i c h w i tn e s s e s w e w o u ld b e d e a li n g w i th t h e y w o u ld h a v e h a d t h o s e a n d t h e r e f o r e w h a t e v e r p r e p a r a ti o n t h e y m i g h t h a v e n e e d e d t o d o t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n in p o s s e s s i o n o f t h o s e . B u t ju s t i n c a s e th e r e m a y b e s o m e w i tn e s s s t a te m e n ts o r o t h e r d o c u m e n ts t h a t th e y n e v e r r e c e i v e d e v e n o r b e fo r e t h e t w o l e v e r a r c h f il e s w e r e s e n t b e c a u s e i f i t is m a y b e o n e o r t w o – o n e o r t w o s t a te m e n ts t h a t c a n 20 – w e c a n s e e w h e t h e r th o s e c a n b e d e a l t w i t h m u c h l a te r i n t h e w e e k o r n o t . S o th a t is w h a t I a m … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l ju s t o n e q u a li f ic a ti o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h i s a f te r n o o n w e w i ll d e a l h o p e fu ll y w it h M r M a s e k o . Page 63 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r e t w o s ta t e m e n ts w e r e g iv e n w i t h t h e b u n d l e a n d t h e b u n d le G G t w o s ta t e m e n t s w e r e g iv e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h a t is a f a ir ly e a s y e q u a t io n to deal with. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To g o t h r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y d o c u m e n t w i ll t a k e q u i t e a … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ti m e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o m e ti m e t o c o m p l e t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r s u g g e s t i o n i s t h a t y o u r e s tr i c t y o u r q u e s ti o n s f o r t h is a f t e r n o o n t o M r M a s e k o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n w e a d j o u r n a n d t h a t g iv e s o p p o r tu n i t y f o r d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e l e g a l t e a m f o r M r Z u m a m i g h t n o t h a v e r e c e iv e d t o b e id e n ti fi e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . I n f a c t i n r e l a t i o n t o Mr M a s e k o m o r e d o c u m e n ts w e r e s e n t la s t y e a r th a n w e r e g i v e n o n th e 1 20 J u l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t I a m t o ld t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a n ts h a w a n ts t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r M a n ts h a w a n ts to a d d r e s s you. Page 64 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M a n t s h a . A D V O C AT E D A N I E L M A N T S H A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . Yo u m a d e m e n ti o n th a t y o u h a v e d ir e c t e d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s s p e c i f ic a l ly t h e in v i te to th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t . If I w e r e t o t a k e y o u b a c k a li t tl e b i t d u r i n g t h e e n g a g e m e n ts w e h a d in c h a m b e r s w h e r e in I a c t u a ll y r a is e d c o m p la i n t s t h a t t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t w h o w a s i n o ffi c e w h e n t h e c o m m i s s io n w a s a p p o i n te d w a s n o t e v e n a s k e d o r to b e c o n s u l te d o f a n y th in g o n t h e m a t t e r. B u t c o m i n g t o t h e p o i n t a f te r I h a v e r e q u e s t e d t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o a c t u a l ly g iv e u s t h e p a r a m e te r s o f w h a t t h e 10 P r e s i d e n t – f o r m e r P r e s id e n t i s g o in g t o b e a s k e d u p o n . M y l a s t le t t e r d a t e d th e 2 4 t h J u n e 2 0 1 9 a t t h e b o t to m o f t h a t l e tt e r a f t e r w e m a d e a ll a tt e m p ts t o a c t u a l ly tr y t o f in d th e b e s t w a y t o p r e p a r e t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t in t e r m s o f t h e a r e a s w h e r e t h e c o m m i s s io n is g o i n g t o a s k . A n d w h y d i d y o u d o th a t C h a ir ? W e d id t h a t b e c a u s e w e w e r e p a r t o f t h e p r o c e e d in g s o f t h is c o m m i s s i o n s . A n d w h e n y o u th e n s a i d to m e t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t i s h e r e o r h e w il l b e a s k e d a s m y l e a r n e d c o l l e a g u e r e a d t h e li s t Mr M a s s e k o , M e n to r a n d s o fo r t h . W e a s k e d t h e q u e s t io n s . W h a t a r e t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g to a s k ? A n d t h e r e a s o n w h y w e a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n s is s i m p ly b e c a u s e s a y f o r e x a m p l e 20 M r M e n t o r b e f o r e y o u s h e to l d y o u s h e c o u l d n o t – th e c o m m i s s i o n c o u l d n o t c o n fir m t h a t s h e h a s le f t C a p e To w n t o J o h a n n e s b u r g . The c o m m i s s io n c o u ld n o t c o n f ir m th a t s h e h a s l e f t J o h a n n e s b u r g fo r C a p e To w n . T h e c o m m is s i o n - t h e r e c o ll e c t io n o f t h e G u p ta ’s r e s i d e n c e , th e e x p e r t w i t n e s s o f t h e c o m m i s s io n c o n t r a d i c t e d h e r r e c o ll e c t io n th a t s h e a p p a r e n t ly d o e s n o t s e e m t o h a v e a p p e a r e d i n t o th e p l a c e . Page 65 of 101 So I am 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 s a y in g b e c a u s e i t i s i m p o r t a n t w e w e r e a s k i n g t h e s e q u e s ti o n s t o s a y a r e y o u r e a l ly c a ll in g h i m t o a n s w e r t h in g s t h a t it w a s p r o v e d b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s io n and proved b e fo r e everybody who is fo ll o w i n g th is p r o c e e d i n g th a t t h a t w i tn e s s h a s – t h e r e is n o p r o o f . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M r M a n ts h a r ig h t n o w th e q u e s ti o n i s r e la t e s t o d o c u m e n ts t h a t m a y – t h a t t h e le g a l t e a m s a y s … A D V O C AT E D A N I E L M A N T S H A : I n d e e d C h a ir I a m g e t ti n g t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E D A N I E L M A N T S H A : I a m g e t ti n g t h e r e b e c a u s e a s I h a v e 10 m e n ti o n e d t o y o u m y l e t te r o f t h e 2 4 t h I t h e n s a i d t o th e c o m m i s s io n w e tr y i n g t o f a c i li t a te t h a t th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s w i ll b e c o n d u c t e d in a s p ir i t o f th e t r u e p e o p le w h o w e r e p u r s u i n g th e t r u th . N o t t h e p e o p le w h o a r e p u r s u i n g s o m e o f w h a t th e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a s b e e n s a y i n g . And w h e n th a t w a s r e b u ff e d b y th is c o m m i s s i o n t h e l a s t s e n te n c e o n th e le t t e r w a s w e a r e o u t o f th e s e e n g a g e m e n ts . W h ic h m e a n t w h a te v e r t h e c o m m i s s i o n a t te m p t e d t o b r in g to m y o ffic e t h e c o m m i s s i o n w a s d o i n g s o in i ts o w n p e r i l . B e c a u s e I h a v e f o r m a ll y i n fo r m e d t h e c o m m i s s io n th a t s in c e m y a t t e m p ts t o t r y t o h a v e th e s m o o t h r u n n i n g o f t h is – t h e a p p e a r a n c e o f th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t . Yo u a r e n o t i n t e r e s te d . 20 T h e r e f o r e I w a s h e d m y h a n d s o u t o f i t . S o w h a te v e r y o u c a n b r in g t o m y o ffic e w a s d o n e a t th e c o m m i s s i o n p e r i l a n d t h e n t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s to d e a l w i t h . B u t w h a t I c a n s a y to y o u i n t e r m s o f t h e n o ti c e s w h ic h h a v e b e e n s e n t t o m y o ffi c e s in te r m s o f M a s e k o a n d o th e r s w e c o n fir m t h o s e n o ti c e s . B u t w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is a s I w a s s a y i n g t o y o u w h e n y o u g e t a n o ti c e t h a t y o u a r e i m p li c a t e d s u r e ly y o u e x p e c t t h a t Page 66 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h e r e i s a c o n te n t t h a t i m p lic a t e s y o u in l e g a l s e n s e o f t h e w o r d . So e v e n t h o u g h w h a t I a m s a y i n g is s a y w e a r e o n l y c o n c e r n e d w it h t h e d o c u m e n ts . I t i s m o r e t h a n d o c u m e n ts b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d t o s a y, d o y o u w a n t to a s k u s a b o u t B o o y s e n s ? H e n e v e r i m p l ic a t e d u s . Yo u w a n t to ask us about Sindane? Yo u g iv e u s t h e n o ti c e th e y h a v e n e v e r i m p l ic a t e d u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o M r M a n ts h a . L e t u s – l e t u s s t ic k to w h a t is a t is s u e . I t is tr u e t h a t y o u r – th e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f y o u r l e tt e r s a i d t h e C o m m i s s io n w a s n o t g o i n g to r e c e i v e a n y f u r t h e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e 10 fr o m y o u b u t i t d id n o t s a y y o u w e r e w i t h d r a w in g a s M r Z u m a ’s a tt o r n e y s . M R D A N I E L M A N T S H A : I n d e e d C h a ir b u t th e p o i n t w e a r e m a k i n g w e d is e n g a g e d a s f a r a s t h e a p p e a r a n c e o f t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t w a s c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e w e h a v e a t te m p t e d t o d is c u s s th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t o d is c u s s t h e q u e s t io n s a n d a l l o f t h a t w a s r e b u ffe d . S o w h e n th e P r e s i d e n t – f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t c o m e s h e r e a n d t a l k s to y o u o f a g r a n d n a r r a t iv e t h e s e a r e s o m e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t w h e n w e lo o k fr o m w h e r e w e s i t a s r e f le c te d o n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o s a y b u t w h y s h o u ld p e o p l e w h o a r e l o o k i n g f o r tr u t h w o u ld a s k a p e r s o n t o c o m e … 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o M r M a n ts h a . We – you have made the point y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e a b o u t th e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u h a d n o ti f ie d th e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t i t w o u ld n o t r e c e i v e a n y fu r t h e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m y o u . Yo u h a v e c o n c e d e d t h a t y o u h a d n o t w i t h d r a w n a s h is a t t o r n e y o f record and I understand that the Commission Secretariat then made s u r e t h a t t h e d o c u m e n ts w e r e s e r v e d o n y o u o n y o u r o ffi c e s b e c a u s e Page 67 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 fr o m th e p o i n t o f v i e w o f t h e C o m m i s s io n y o u r e m a in e d h i s a t to r n e y o f r e c o r d a n d t h e y c o u l d n o t l ia is e d ir e c tl y w i t h h i m . M R D A N I E L M A N T S H A : B u t – b u t w i t h r e s p e c t C h a ir p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL MANTSHA: Th e C o m m i s s io n h a s g o t n o l ic e n c e to d o w h a t e v e r it w is h e s . T h e C o m m i s s io n w a s i n fo r m e d i n w r i t in g t h a t a s f a r a s t h i s a s p e c t i s c o n c e r n e d w e d is e n g a g e d b e c a u s e t h e C o m m i s s io n w a s n o t c o o p e r a ti n g w i t h u s . I t h i n k I h a v e m a d e m y p o in t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u h a v e . 10 MR DANIEL MANTSHA: A s – a s t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t s t a t e d t h is matter runs very deep. S o th e r e a r e d e e p e r t h in g s w e w o u l d w a n t to submit to you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M R D A N I E L M A N T S H A : In d u e c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u Mr M a n ts h a . T h a n k y o u . M r S ik h a k a n e . M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : C h a ir, I – I t h i n k i n t h e in t e r e s t o f t h is p r o c e s s a n d t i m e I w o u l d – I w o u ld a ll o w I t h i n k M r - M r P a u l P r e t o r iu s m u s t – must proceed … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : A n d t o t a k e i t w h e r e h e w a n ts t o t a k e i t . CHAIRPERSON: evidence r e l a ti n g Ye s . to H e s u g g e s t e d t h a t m a y b e w e d e a l w i th t h e Mr Maseko only and d is c u s s io n s c a n b e l o o k e d a t . M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : C h a ir I – I … C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h a t b e fi n e ? Page 68 of 101 then after that then 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 MR MUZI SIKHAKANE: I have no problem. As I said I have not seen the documents … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR MUZI SIKHAKANE: B u t I t a k e i t fr o m h i m i t is s t a te m e n ts t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : I – I t h i n k – I t h i n k it is i m p o r t a n t t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : T h a t ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o th a t – I – I t h i n k th a t w o u ld b e f a ir t o – to d o . W e – w e w il l k e e p o n tr y i n g t o b e a s f a ir a s p o s s ib le . M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e m ig h t n o t a l w a y s g e t i t r i g h t b u t w e w il l c o n t in u e … M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : A b s o lu t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : To tr y a n d d o o u r b e s t . M R M U Z I S I K H A K A N E : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k – th a n k y o u . MR MUZI SIKHAKANE: Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Mr Z u m a I a m s u r e y o u h a v e b e e n f o ll o w i n g ? So t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts t h a t th e S e c r e ta r i a t o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n s e n t t o y o u r a tt o r n e y s b u t y o u – y o u h a v e h e a r d w h a t th e in s t r u c t i n g a tt o r n e y h a s d o n e b u t t h e r e s e e m s t o b e a n a c c e p t a n c e t h a t a t l e a s t i n r e g a r d t o M r M a s e k o ’s s t a te m e n t t h a t w a s s e n t o ff l a s t y e a r a n d M r Pr e to r i u s h a s s u g g e s te d th a t h e w i ll n o t d e a l w i th o t h e r w i t n e s s e s Page 69 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h is a f te r n o o n . H e w il l j u s t d e a l w i t h M r M a s e k o s o t h a t a f t e r th a t t h e l a w y e r s c a n t a l k t o e a c h o t h e r t o s e e h o w t o s o r t o u t t h e is s u e o f t h e o th e r d o c u m e n ts . T h a n k y o u . Mr P r e t o r iu s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : t h is p a r t o f t h e d e b a t e C h a ir. Ye s j u s t fo r c l a r i ty to c lo s e o f T h e le t te r fr o m M r M a n ts h a d a t e d 24 June said in the last paragraph: “ A c c o r d i n g ly you w i ll r e c e iv e no f u r th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m u s in t h is r e g a r d a n d w e w is h t h e C o m m is s i o n w e l l . ” 10 U n l e s s M r M a n t s h a r e v o k e d h is m a n d a t e a n d w i th d r e w a s a tt o r n e y o f r e c o r d i n t h e i n t e r i m w i t h o u t in f o r m i n g u s a n d l e a v in g u s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h r o u g h t h e d e li v e r y o f d o c u m e n ts to h i m t h a t h e r e m a in e d o n r e c o r d w it h o u t r e p ly a n d t h e n h e w i ll s u d d e n ly c o m e o n record. O n e c a n d r a w t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t h e h a s b e e n a t to r n e y o f record throughout. M r Zu m a m a y I b e g l e a v e t o h a n d u p to y o u t h e t w o b u n d le s o f d o c u m e n ts a n d I u n d e r ta k e to d e a l w i th t h e q u e s ti o n s i n s o fa r a s t h e y a r e m a t t e r s w i th in y o u r o w n k n o w l e d g e s lo w l y a n d i n a m a n n e r i n w h ic h 20 y o u a r e h o p e f u l ly n o t ta k e n b y s u r p r is e b u t p le a s e i f th e r e is a n y d o c u m e n t y o u w i s h t o r e a d o r t h e r e i s a n y t i m e y o u n e e d to c o n s i d e r m a t t e r s w e w i ll d o o u r b e s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e p r o c e e d in g s a r e f a ir. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h a t is – y o u h a v e b e f o r e y o u t w o fi l e s . Page 70 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u n d l e G G A a n d o n th e s p in e i t is m a r k e d f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t a n d y o u r n a m e f o ll o w s . Do you see? Bundle AA. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : G G A , y e s i t is t h is o n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. So you can put GGB a s i d e fo r t h e m o m e n t . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 W e w i ll d e a l w i t h ju s t th e f e w p a g e s i n d iv i d e r o n e in G G A . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h – p a g e 2 a n d w h e n w e r e fe r to p a g e s w e w ill b e r e fe r r i n g to th e p a g e s in r e d i n t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r. D o y o u s e e t h a t ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o p a g e 2 is th e a ffi d a v i t o f M r M a s e k o . Yo u h a v e th a t? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 2 h e s a y s : 20 “ I h a v e b e e n r e q u e s te d t o p r o v i d e a n a ffi d a v i t r e l a ti n g t o th e r e p o r t th a t I s u b m i t te d to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s o c a l le d S t a t e C a p t u r e in v e s t i g a t io n . ” T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h s 3 a n d fo u r h e c o n ti n u e s . H e s a y s : “ I f ir s t s u b m i t t e d t h e s t a t e m e n t i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e Page 71 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 c a l l b y t h e S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l o f t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n N a t io n a l Congress Mr G w e d e M a n t a s h e w h ic h s t a te m e n t w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly s u b m i t te d t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s O ff ic e . Th is s t a te m e n t … ” A n d h e r e fe r s t o t h e s t a te m e n t in p a r a g r a p h 3 . “ … p r o v i d e s d e t a i ls o f m y e x p e r i e n c e w it h t h e G u p ta f a m ily d u r i n g m y te n u r e a s A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r a n d t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r o f t h e G o v e r n m e n t C o m m u n i c a t io n a n d In f o r m a t io n S y s te m - G C I S . ” T h e p r o c e s s th a t is r e f e r r e d to in p a r a g r a p h 3 t h a t i s t h e 10 s u b m is s io n o f t h e s ta t e m e n t i n r e s p o n s e t o th e c a ll b y t h e S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l o f t h e A f r ic a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s . D o y o u k n o w w h a t p r o c e s s that was? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I am not sure. At some point I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h i s r e fe r s t o th e A N C ta k i n g a d e c is i o n t h a t t h e S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l s h o u l d i n v e s ti g a t e t h is m a t t e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . T h a t – t h a t is our u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e m a t t e r. M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y, o k a y. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w o u l d lik e t o f i n d o u t fr o m y o u M r Zu m a w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t t h a t p r o c e s s . F ir s t ly w h a t w a s t h e m a n d a t e g iv e n t o Mr M a n t a s h e a n d w h o g a v e h i m t h a t m a n d a t e ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e ll I – I c a n n o t b e v e r y c e r ta i n a b o u t i t b u t I t h o u g h t t h a t i t w a s t h e m e e t i n g o f t h e A N C N E C . I w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t it h a d t a k e n th e k i n d o f d e c is io n a n d I w a s n o t i n t h a t Page 72 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 m e e ti n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t d e c is io n d i d t h e y t a k e ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: That Mantashe must do some in v e s t i g a t io n a b o u t t h e G u p t a t h in g s t h a t p e o p le w e r e c o m p l a i n in g a b o u t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d t h a t c o m p la i n t w a s t h a t t h e c o m p la i n t th a t a r o s e in th e p e ti t io n s u b m i t te d t o t h e t h e n M i n is t e r G o r d h a n a n d c o p i e d t o y o u r s e l f fr o m t h e 2 7 D ir e c to r s G e n e r a l ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: From? 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : s u b m i tt e d a p e t it i o n to the T h e D ir e c t o r s G e n e r a l w h o fo r m e r Minister of F in a n c e M r Pr a v in G o r d h a n . I c a n s h o w y o u t h e d o c u m e n t i f y o u w a n t t o s e e it . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a , o k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o y o u c a n r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t m e a ls o ju s t a s k . H a v e y o u h a d a c h a n c e r e c e n t ly t o r e a d Mr M a s e k o ’s s t a t e m e n t t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t I ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e , o k a y. MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : This may assist you before we t a k e m a t t e r s a n y fu r t h e r a n d i f y o u w a n t t o ta k e a fe w m o m e n ts … M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Yo u m u s t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To r e a d i t p l e a s e … M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ta k e i t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R e q u e s t s a m e a n d w e w i ll Page 73 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a r r a n g e th a t t h r o u g h th e C h a ir. T h i s d o c u m e n t w a s in c l u d e d i n t h e b u n d l e C h a i r t h a t w a s g iv e n l a s t y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u w a n t t o t a k e a m i n u t e t o read that document? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e d o c u m e n t i s h e a d e d : “Statement by Former Directors General.” W e w i ll g i v e it a n e x h ib i t n u m b e r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is – i t is a lr e a d y – it w a s a l r e a d y g iv e n a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r p r e v io u s ly. Is i t n o t ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o w e s h o u l d s ti c k t o t h a t e x h i b it n u m b e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. W e w i ll r e f e r t o i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O t h e r w is e th e r e w il l b e c o n fu s i o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a g e 7 5 in a n o t h e r b u n d l e . I a m ju s t c h e c k . I th in k i t is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : E 1 . S o i t c a n b e r e f e r r e d to a s 20 EXHIBIT E1? C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t g iv e n a s E X H I B I T E 1 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Pa ge 75. pages 75 to 81. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t o n e d o c u m e n t ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. Page 74 of 101 S o i t is B u n d le E 1 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u a s k e d h i m w h e th e r h e w a n t e d to h a v e – t o r e a d i t a n d h a v e a lo o k . I s e e i t is q u i t e a n e x t e n s iv e – i t is a b o u t w h a t – f o u r o r f iv e p a g e s ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u n o t w a n t to h ig h li g h t c e r t a i n t h i n g s in i t th a t could refresh his memory? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r Z u m a s h a ll w e d o th a t ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 If y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 it reads: “ A g r o u p o f f o r m e r D ir e c to r s G e n e r a l f e l t c o m p e l l e d t o a d d r e s s t h e r e c e n t d e v e l o p m e n ts th a t a r e h a v in g a n e g a t iv e i m p a c t o n t h e c a p a c i ty o f th e s t a t e t o provide q u a li ty services and eroding p u b lic c o n fi d e n c e i n p u b lic in s t i t u t i o n s . ” A n d t h is is a s ta t e m e n t t h a t is m a d e d u r in g M a y 2 0 … – i t w a s e m b a r g o e d f o r p u b l ic a t i o n u n t il M a y 2 0 1 6 . I t h i n k it s a y s . I t i s n o t c le a r fr o m t h e t o p b u t … CHAIRPERSON: 20 I t i s w r i t te n e m b a r g o e d f o r p u b lic a ti o n o n S u n d a y 15 May 20 … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 6 I a m to l d . CHAIRPERSON: 16, ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h r e a d s a n d t h is is b y w a y o f i n tr o d u c t io n Mr Z u m a : “ W e h a d t h e r a r e h o n o u r i n h is t o r y t o n o t o n ly w o r k Page 75 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a d m i n is tr a t iv e l y t o d is m a n t le a p a r t h e i d b u t a ls o i n c r a f ti n g a n e w l e g a l fr a m e w o r k p a s s e d b y o u r P a r li a m e n t a n d e n t r e n c h e d in o u r c o n s t it u ti o n a l fr a m e w o r k . Th r o u g h th e s e m e a s u r e s d e m o c r a ti c in s t i tu t io n s w e r e e s ta b lis h e d . O u r in i ti a ti v e to s p e a k a s f o r m e r A c c o u n t i n g O ff ic e r s t o d a y i s d r iv e n b y o u r s h a r e d c o m m i t m e n t t o o u r c o n s t it u ti o n a l d e m o c r a c y. T h i s i s n o t a p a r ty p o li ti c a l in i ti a ti v e a n d w e d o n o t c o n s i d e r t h e m a tt e r s w e a r e r a is in g 10 t o b e p a r ty p o l it ic a l in n a t u r e . ” T h e t h ir d p a r a g r a p h in t h e in tr o d u c ti o n r e a d s : “As former Directors General we brought a c o l l e c ti v e c o m m i t m e n t t o s e r v e a n d d i s m a n t le th e a p a r t h e i d s t a te m a c h i n e r y a n d r e p l a c e d i t w i th d e m o c r a tic i n s ti t u ti o n s d e m o c r a tic v a lu e s , that s o c ia l were j u s tic e , in f o r me d by fu n d a m e n t a l h u m a n r ig h ts a n d a d e e p d e s ir e to i m p r o v e t h e q u a li ty o f li f e o f a l l S o u t h A fr i c a n s . ” A n d t h e n u n d e r t h e h e a d in g : 20 “Our Concerns” On the second page of the document that is page 76 of E1 M r Zu m a i t r e a d s : “ A s fo r m e r D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l s w e a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t r e p o r ts th a t p u b l ic o ffic ia ls in c l u d i n g H e a d s o f S t a t e O w n e d E n t i ti e s a r e b e i n g p r e s s u r i s e d b y Page 76 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 p r i v a t e i n t e r e s ts t o w i l fu ll y b r e a k p r o c u r e m e n t r u le s a n d th e r u l e s p e r ta i n i n g t o tr a n s p a r e n t fa ir a n d c o m p e te n c y b a s e d a p p o in t m e n ts . I n p a r t ic u l a r w e e x p r e s s c o n c e r n a t r e c e n t r e v e l a ti o n s o f a ll e g e d “ S t a t e C a p t u r e ” b y t h e G u p t a f a m il y, t h e i r a p p a r e n t in fl u e n c e over p o l it ic a l and a d m i n is t r a t iv e a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d th e i r a l le g e d i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e ir r e g u l a r f a c i li t a ti o n securing and is s u i n g of G o v e r n m e n t t e n d e r s a n d c o n tr a c ts . ” 10 I t t h e n g o e s o n i n th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h M r Z u m a o n p a g e 7 6 : “ A n u m b e r o f a ll e g e d c o r r u p t p r a c tic e s t h a t h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t t o th e p u b l ic ’s a t te n ti o n t h a t a r e tantamount to b r e a k in g laws such as th e C o n s t i tu t io n , th e P F M A … ” T h a t is th e P u b l ic Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t . “ … P r e f e r e n t ia l Pr o c u r e m e n t P o lic y Fr a m e w o r k a n d P u b l ic S e r v ic e R e g u l a ti o n s . ” T h e n e x t h e a d i n g is : “ A C a l l f o r Ac t io n ” 20 A n d t h e y c a ll fo r : “ T h e e s t a b lis h m e n t o f a n i n d e p e n d e n t p u b l ic in q u ir y in t e r m s o f S e c t io n 4 1 ( a ) o f th e P r o m o t io n o f A d m i n i s t r a t iv e J u s tic e Ac t . ” A n d t h e y s u g g e s t h o w t h a t s h o u l d b e a c h i e v e d a n d th e n i n – o n t h e t h i r d p a g e Mr Z u m a p a g e 7 7 i t r e a d s in t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h : Page 77 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 “ T h i s i n q u ir y s h o u ld in v e s ti g a t e a ll s e n i o r p o li t ic a l and a d m in is tr a tiv e o ffi c i a l s who may in t h e ir d e a li n g s w i th t h e G u p ta s a n d a s s o c i a t e d c o m p a n ie s h a v e c o n tr a v e n e d t h e C o n s t i tu t io n , t h e P F M A a n d t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e A c t a s A m e n d e d . W e r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h is C o m m i s s io n b e e s t a b l is h e d w i t h i n t h r e e m o n th s t o g i v e a p u b lic p r o g r e s s r e p o r t w i t h i n s ix m o n th s . ” T h e n t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f o t h e r s ta t e m e n ts m a d e c a l li n g 10 u p o n v a r i o u s o ffi c i a l s t o d o v a r i o u s t h i n g s . T h e y s a y i n t h e p e n u l t i m a te paragraph on page 78: “ W e h a v e i n it i a t e d a c o n s u l ta t iv e p r o c e s s w i t h k e y s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t w e b e li e v e c a n h e l p t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e in q u i r y is a s s i s te d t o a c h ie v e th e g o a l o f u n c o v e r i n g i n c i d e n t s o f c o r r u p ti o n a n d o t h e r f o r m s o f il le g a l a c t iv i t ie s . ” T h e n t h e fi n a l p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 7 9 r e a d s : “ U n l e s s th e s e c h a ll e n g e s a r e a t t e n d e d to u r g e n t ly our c o u n tr y maybe plunged in t o a c r is is of g o v e r n a n c e a n d le a d t o th e c o l la p s e o f p u b li c 20 s e r v ic e s in g e n e r a l a t t h e e x p e n s e o f d e li v e r i n g q u a li ty s e r v ic e s t o o u r c o m m u n i ty. ” Annexed to that document dated 2 2 A p r il 2 0 1 6 is the s t a te m e n t o f t h e f o r m e r D i r e c t o r s G e n e r a l . D o y o u s e e th a t o n p a g e 8 0 M r Zu m a ? Page 78 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : It i s d a te d 2 2 A p r il 2 0 1 6 . I t is a d d r e s s e d to t h e M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e M i n is t e r P r a v i n G o r d h a n , t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n i s t r a ti o n M in is t e r R a m a t lh o d i a n d c o p i e d t o y o u r s e l f th e Pr e s i d e n t o f t h e R e p u b lic o f S o u t h A f r i c a a n d t h e D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t o f t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A fr i c a . F ir s t ly d o y o u r e c a l l r e c e i v i n g th is d o c u m e n t? D o y o u w a n t a c h a n c e t o l o o k a t i t a s w e ll ? I t is in s m a l l p r in t b u t i t is t w o p a g e s . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I k n o w. I – I d o n o t r e c a ll . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n o t r e c a ll ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I r e c e i v e d s o m a n y d o c u m e n ts . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I u n d e r s ta n d . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s w e s h o u ld s ta r t b y going to the fourth paragraph on page 80. “ W e s u b m i t t h is m e m o r a n d u m … ” T h e y s a y a n d w e w i ll g e t t o t h e s i g n a t o r ie s i n a m o m e n t . “…to e x p r e s s o u r c o l le c tiv e c o n c e r n at recent r e v e l a ti o n s o f S t a te C a p tu r e b y t h e G u p t a fa m i ly. 20 T h e ir apparent i n fl u e n c e over p o l i ti c a l and a d m i n is tr a t iv e a p p o i n t m e n t s a n d t h e ir i n v o l v e m e n t in th e ir r e g u l a r f a c il it a ti o n s e c u r i n g a n d i s s u in g o f Government tenders and contracts. We a ls o e x p r e s s o u r c o n c e r n a t t h e e ff e c t o f t h e r e c e n t C o n s t i tu t io n a l Court judgment Page 79 of 101 in th e Nkandla 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 m a t t e r. ” T h a t is n o t d ir e c tl y r e l e v a n t t o w h a t w e a r e d o i n g a t th e m o m e n t . Th e n i n th e n e x t p a r a g r a p h t h e y s a y : “ W h ils t n o ti n g th e in i ti a tiv e u n d e r t a k e n b y t h e A N C to conduct an internal inquiry we as fo r m e r a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r s b e li e v e t h a t t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e is s u e s r a i s e d a r e o f a n a d mi n is tr a ti v e n a tu r e t h e r e a r e a d e q u a te p r o v is i o n s w i t h i n th e P F M A a n d the PSA …” 10 T h e P u b lic S e r v i c e A c t . “ … t h a t m a k e it o b l i g a t o r y f o r t h e s e a ll e g a ti o n s to b e addressed.” A n d w h a t f o ll o w s i n th e n e x t p a r a g r a p h i s t h e s a m e c a ll f o r a n in d e p e n d e n t p u b l ic i n q u ir y i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 4 o f th e P r o m o t i o n o f A d m i n i s t r a t iv e J u s t ic e Ac t and many of th e a ll e g a t io n s or th e s t a te m e n ts o n p a g e 8 1 f o ll o w w h a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y p u t o n r e c o r d M r Zu m a . I f I m a y th e n p o i n t o u t a t th e b o tt o m o f p a g e 8 1 is t h e li s t o f s ig n a to r i e s a n d t h a t lis t h a s b e e n c o n f ir m e d b y a t l e a s t t w o w it n e s s e s o r a t le a s t o n e w i t n e s s , Mr M a s e k o a n d if I m a y p l a c e th e m o n r e c o r d . 20 It is F r a n k C h ik a n e , B a r r y G il d e r, K e ts o G o r d h a n , T h o z i G w a n y a , R o g e r J a r d i n e , T h e m b a M a s e k o , M z u v u k i le M a q e tu k a , Mogopodi Mokoena … C H A I R P E R S O N : Mz u v u k il e M a q e t u k a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a q e tu k a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 80 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t u m e le n g M o s a l a , M p u m i M p o f u , Mavuso Msimang, Ay a n d a N t s a lu b a , Vu s i P ik o li , A n d il e N g c a b a , Siphiwe Nyanda, S i p h o P i ty a n a , X o lis w a S ib e k o , G ib s o n N je n je , Bongiwe Njobe, D i p a k P a te l , A l lis t a i r R u i te r s , Moe Shaik, M a l le le P i tj e , S i p h o S h a b a la l a , Ly n d a ll S h o p e - M a f o le , Vi n c e n t Z w e l ib a n z i M n t a m b o a n d P a m Ya k o . A r e th e r e a n y n a m e s i n t h a t lis t w h o f a l l i n to th e c a t e g o r y o f p e r s o n s w h o y o u r e f e r r e d t o th is m o r n i n g a s b e i n g p a r t o f a p l a n t o “g e t r id o f y o u ” M r Z u m a ? 10 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: S o r r y. C a n y o u ju s t r e p e a t? I w a s s ti ll r e a d in g ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A r e t h e r e a n y p e r s o n s o n t h is lis t w h o w o u ld fa ll i n to t h e c a t e g o r y o f p e r s o n s y o u r e fe r r e d t o t h is m o r n in g a s p e r s o n s b e in g p a r t o f a p l a n o r c o n s p ir a c y t o a n d I u s e y o u r w o r d s “ t o g e t r id o f y o u ” ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k C h a ir t h r o u g h y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: T h e p l a n I s a id i t w a s d o n e b y t h r e e i n t e l li g e n c e o r g a n i s a t io n s w h o d i d w h a t t h e y d i d . 20 I – I said a c ti v i ti e s u n d e r ta k e n a n d I d i d n o t s a y t h o s e p e o p l e w h o t o o k t h e u n d e r t a k i n g w e r e p a r t o f t h e p la n o r t h e y p l a n n e d i t . I s a i d th e p la n w a s m a d e . T h e r e w e r e p e o p le to i m p l e m e n t i t . I d id n o t g iv e t h e l is t o f those people. I – I d e a l t w i t h i n s t a n c e s w h e r e th in g s h a p p e n e d a n d th is w a s p a r t o f th e p l a n . I d id n o t s a y t h e p e o p l e d o i n g i t w e r e p a r t o f t h e p l a n . Page 81 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 I did not say so. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Well can we just understand t h e n w h a t y o u r v i e w o f t h is r e q u e s t f o r a p u b li c i n q u ir y w a s in fa c t? Wa s i t a g e n u i n e c o n c e r n e x p r e s s e d b y f o r m e r D i r e c to r s G e n e r a l i n o r d e r t o a s k c e r t a i n o ffi c i a l s w i th in G o v e r n m e n t t o i n s t i tu t e a n in q u ir y ? C a n w e a c c e p t th a t? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . I a m a c c e p t in g i t . To m e that is what they did. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d t h a t a p p e a r s t o b e th e 10 b a c k g r o u n d o r a t l e a s t c ir c u m s t a n c e s a s s o c i a t e d w i th t h e e v id e n c e o f M r M a s e k o o n p a g e 2 w h e r e h e s a y s h e s u b m it t e d a s t a t e m e n t i n r e s p o n s e t o a c a l l b y th e S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l o f th e A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s . Th a t I u n d e r s t a n d a s y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s t h e i n te r n a l i n q u ir y c o m m i s s io n e d b y t h e A N C i ts e l f ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. A r e y o u a b l e t o te ll u s m o r e a b o u t t h a t i n q u i r y - a g a i n to r e v e r t t o a n e a r li e r q u e s t io n - i ts m a n d a t e a n d w h e t h e r y o u r e c e iv e d a n y r e p o r ts a s t o h o w t h e i n q u ir y w e n t ? W h a t h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f th e i n q u ir y ? 20 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o . I n f a c t I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h a t – w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h a t in q u ir y. I c a n n o t r e c a l l r i g h t n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r s ta t e m e n ts o th e r t h a n th a t o f M r M a s e k o w e r e m a d e t o th e i n q u ir y ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No. o th e r. Page 82 of 101 I do not remember any 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D id y o u k n o w o f t h e e x is t e n c e o f t h e in q u ir y ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S o r r y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D id y o u k n o w o f t h e e x is t e n c e o f t h e in q u ir y ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . I w a s a w a r e o f it . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d d i d y o u t a k e a n y n o t e o f i ts outcome? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 10 I cannot remember what the o u t c o m e w a s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P r e s u m a b ly i n h is c a p a c it y a s t h e C h a ir o f th e in q u ir y Mr M a n t a s h e w o u ld h a v e r e p o r t e d t o y o u . D o y o u r e c a ll a n y s u c h r e p o r t ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e r e m ig h t h a v e b e e n a r e p o r t b u t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r r ig h t n o w. I k n o w t h a t M r M a n t a s h e w a s g iv e n t h a t . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a r e p o r t b a c k o r n o t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Just from your own experience w o u ld s u c h a r e p o r t h a v e b e e n i n w r i ti n g ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: By – by …? 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B y M r M a n t a s h e . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A s a S e c r e ta r y - G e n e r a l h e a l w a y s p r e s e n t e d r e p o r ts th a t w e r e w r i t t e n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w e m a y b e a b l e t o s e e th a t a t some stage? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w. Page 83 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r M a n ta s h e m a y y e t b e a s k e d a b o u t t h a t in q u ir y b e c a u s e i t is r e l e v a n t a s b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e n a r r a t iv e i n r e la t io n t o i n v e s ti g a t i o n s a n d t h e lik e a n d w h a t w e r e t h e c o n c e r n s o f v a r i o u s p e o p l e b o t h w i th in G o v e r n m e n t a n d o u ts i d e o f G o v e r n m e n t b u t w e c a n l e a v e th a t a s i d e f o r t h e m o m e n t . C a n w e g o t o p a g e 3 o f th e s ta t e m e n t w h e r e M r M a s e k o d e a ls w i t h h is r o l e a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t C o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d In f o r m a t io n S e r v i c e – th e G C I S ? T h e G C I S a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i s t h e C o m m u n ic a ti o n S e r v ic e … 10 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : U n d e r G o v e r n m e n t R u b r ic a n d C o n tr o l … M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th a t d e p a r t m e n t r e s i d e s w i t h i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o i n y o u r te r m a s P r e s i d e n t y o u w o u ld h a v e b e e n d i r e c t ly r e s p o n s ib le a n d a c c o u n t a b l e f o r t h e a c t iv it i e s of GCIS. I understand. 20 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I t is a M in is t e r w h o is d ir e c t ly r e s p o n s i b l e fo r i ts a c tiv i ti e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s y o u h a v e th e M i n i s te r i n your … M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a , r e p o r ts t o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D e p a r t m e n t . Page 84 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : M i n is te r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And that Minister was the late C o ll i n s C h a b a n e a t th e ti m e I u n d e r s t a n d ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t a n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t G C I S h a d a r e s p o n s ib il it y f o r m e d i a b u y i n g . S o w h e r e m e d i a w i s h e d t o p u b lis h a d v e r t is e m e n ts t h e y w o u ld b e s o u r c e d t h r o u g h G C I S a s I understand. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k y o u m e a n G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts . Yo u s a i d 10 when media wanted. I think you mean Government departments of GCIS. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Well when Government d e p a r t m e n ts w a n te d to p l a c e a d v e r t s a n d m e d i a r ig h t … M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h e n m e d ia w o u l d n e g o ti a t e w i t h v a r i o u s G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t w a s a ll d o n e t h r o u g h G C I S . A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 So GCIS was as I understand t h e e v id e n c e o f M r M a s e k o r e s p o n s ib l e fo r t h e f u n c ti o n o f p l a c i n g a d v e r t is e m e n ts i n t h e m e d i a a l th o u g h th e a d v e r t is e m e n ts w e r e p a i d f o r b y th e v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o I u n d e r s t a n d i t c o r r e c t ly ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm. Page 85 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w is i t c o r r e c t th a t t h e t o ta l G o v e r n m e n t e x p e n d i tu r e o n a d v e r t is i n g w a s v a l u e d a t a r o u n d R 6 0 0 m il li o n p e r a n n u m ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . I t h i n k s o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h e a d v e r t is in g s p e n d fo r w h ic h G C I S w a s a t l e a s t p a r t ia ll y r e s p o n s i b l e , a c o n s id e r a b l e a m o u n t o f m o n e y R 6 0 0 m il li o n ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L 10 JOSEPH PRETORIUS SC: A n d w h a t Mr M a s e k o s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 9 , if y o u c o u ld h a v e a l o o k a t it , t h e m e d i a b u y i n g f u n c t io n m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 a b o v e w a s p e r fo r me d o n a c o n t in g e n c y b a s i s o n b e h a lf o f o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s , M r Zu m a is s t il l t r y i n g to fi n d t h e p a r a g r a p h , i t ’s s t il l o n p a g e 3 p a r a g r a p h 9 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y M r Zu m a . C H A I R P E R S O N S : P a g e 3 o f M r M a s e k o ’s s t a te m e n t p a r a g r a p h 9 , h a v e y o u f o u n d it ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s a n d i ts p a g e 3 , t h e r e d n u m b e r i n g in t h e t o p r i g h t- h a n d c o r n e r. 20 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s r e d n u m b e r i n g , i f i t ’s p a g e 3 is it 7 7 ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll s e e a t th e t o p t h e r e w o u l d b e l e tt e r J G Z a n d t h e n 0 0 3 w h e n M r P r e t o r i u s r e f e r s t o a p a g e h e w o n ’ t m e n ti o n d o u b l e z e r o h e w i ll j u s t s a y 3 , s o – b u t it ’s t h e r e d n u m b e r s a t th e to p . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O h w h ic h i s 3 ? Page 86 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 CHAIRPERSON: J a , ja s o w h a t m i g h t b e c o n f u s in g y o u i s th a t it ’s d o u b l e z e r o th r e e , s o h e w il l ju s t s a y 3 b u t h e m e a n s t h e l a s t n u m b e r ja . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d ju s t a s a m a t te r o f p o li t e n e s s Mr Z u m a F P is F o r m e r P r e s i d e n t . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : F P, o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: J a t h e p a g e n u m b e r s i s w r i t te n l e tt e r s F P - J G Z- 0 0 3 b u t h e w i ll ju s t s a y p a g e 3 , h e w o n ’ t m e n ti o n t h e o t h e r s – t h e l e t te r s a n d th e d o u b l e z e r o . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f w e m a y g o t h e n , o n t h a t p a g e to paragraph 9, it says, “ T h e m e d i a b u y in g f u n c ti o n m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 a b o v e w a s p e r f o r m e d o n a n a g e n c y b a s is on b e h a l f o f o th e r d e p a r t m e n ts . Th e b u d g e t f o r t h is f u n c ti o n w a s a ll o c a te d t o t h e v a r io u s li n e d e p a r t m e n ts a n d n o t t h e G C I S b u d g e t ’s v o t e s ” , Is t h a t a c o r r e c t u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th e p ic t u r e ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k s o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y, a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d t h is m o r n i n g M r Z u m a , y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n th a t 20 t o w a r d s th e e n d o f 2 0 1 0 , th a t t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s w e r e i n t e n t , a t y o u r in s t a n c e , a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t n o w, o n s e t t in g u p t h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r, is t h a t c o r r e c t? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n a ls o o n p a g e 3 a t paragraph 10 Mr Maseko says, that around September/October 2010 I Page 87 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m M r A j a y G u p t a o n m y m o b i l e n u m b e r 0 8 3 6 4 5 0 8 1 0 r e q u e s t in g a m e e t i n g to d is c u s s w h a t h e s a i d w a s a n e w p r o j e c t w h ic h h e a n d h is c o m p a n y w e r e la u n c h i n g w h ic h h e i n d ic a t e d r e q u ir e d G o v e r n m e n t s u p p o r t , h e s a y s o v e r t h e p a g e , t h a t h e k n e w Mr A ja y G u p t a b u t t h a t h e w a s r e l u c ta n t t o a c c e d e to th e r e q u e s t, h e f i n a ll y d e c i d e d to a c c e d e t o t h e r e q u e s t . Now may I ask did you have a n y th in g t o d o w i th a r r a n g i n g f o r Mr G u p ta to s p e a k to M r M a s e k o ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I d i d n ’ t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 I n a n y e v e n t a m e e t in g t o o k p l a c e a n d o n t h e d a t e o f t h e m e e ti n g , a n d t h a t w a s d u r in g 2 0 1 0 – s o r r y d u r i n g S e p t e m b e r / O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 h e s a y s h e r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic ia l r e s i d e n c e , h e s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 1 5 a t t h e b o t to m o f page 4, “ I i d e n t i fi e d t h e i n c o m i n g n u m b e r a s I h a d , h a d d e a l in g s w it h t h e r e s id e n ts p r e v i o u s ly, a f e m a l e c a l l e r s a i d t h e P r e s id e n t wanted to speak to me”, And then on page 5 paragraph 16 Mr M aseko refers to the c o n te n t o f t h e c a ll , w il l y o u t a k e a m o m e n t t o r e a d t h a t p le a s e ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 20 Ye s . U N I D E N T I F I E D S P E A K E R : ( In a u d i b l e m ic o ff) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : M a y b e I s h o u l d a s k y o u t o r e a d it , m y a c c e n t n o t b e i n g w h a t it s h o u l d . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, le t m e r e a d p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o f Mr M a s e k o ’s a ffi d a v i t a t p a g e 5 , h e s a y s , Page 88 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 “ T h e c a l l w a s t h e n t r a n s f e r r e d to t h e P r e s i d e n t , a f te r t h e p l e a s a n tr ie s , th e P r e s i d e n t t h e n s a id t h e fo ll o w i n g , a n d h e q u o t e s “( s p e a k i n g is i Z u l u ) ” , T h e E n g li s h t r a n s l a ti o n i s , t h a t is M r M a s e k o c o n ti n u i n g ( m y b r o t h e r th e r e a r e t h e s e G u p ta g u y s w h o n e e d to m e e t w i t h y o u a n d w h o need your help, please help them), that is paragraph 16, your question t h e n Mr P r e t o r iu s ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l th a t i s th e v e r s i o n o f M r M a s e k o a n d i t ’s a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r y o u , M r Z u m a t o r e s p o n d t o t h a t , I 10 c a n a s k y o u i n d iv id u a l q u e s ti o n s o r y o u c a n r e s p o n d i n g e n e r a l , h o w e v e r, is m o r e c o n v e n ie n t , p e r h a p s I s h o u ld a s k , d o y o u r e c a l l th a t h a p p e n in g ? MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA: W e ll I ’ m n o t s u r e , I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e I n o r m a l ly c a l le d t h e D G ’s p a r ti c u l a r l y t h i s o n e to d is c u s s a n u m b e r o f is s u e s . I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r m a k i n g t h i s c a ll , a l s o i n t h e Z u l u w o r d I n o r m a ll y s a y ( is i Z u l u w o r d ) , I’ m n o t f o n d o f ( is i Z u l u w o r d ) i t lo o k s l ik e s o m e b o d y w a s t r y i n g to r e m e m b e r m y c o m m o n o n e in Z u l u b e c a u s e I a lw a y s s a y ( i s i Z u l u w o r d ) . I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w b u t t h e is s u e o f th is n e w p a p e r o f t h e o w n e r s w a n t i n g t o ta lk t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t b u t 20 m o r e i m p o r t a n tly t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f M a s e k o b e c a u s e i t w a s c e n tr e p o in t in te r ms o f a d v e r t is e m e n t w h a t e v e r, a ll t h e o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts , s o i t i s n a t u r a l t h e y w o u ld w a n t t o t a l k to h i m . S o I d o n ’ t th i n k th e r e w a s a n y th in g o u t o f th e o r d i n a r y w h e th e r t h e r e w a s a c a ll o r n o c a ll b u t I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r m a k i n g th e c a ll a n d s a y i n g ( is i Z u l u w o r d ) b e c a u s e I m a d e a n u m b e r o f c a lls a n d r e a l ly I c a n ’t s a y, t h i s o n e , I r e m e m b e r Page 89 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 m a k i n g i t f o r th a t d a y t o s a y th is m u s t h a p p e n . CHAIRPERSON: I s th e p o s it i o n t h a t y o u s a y i t m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d b u t y o u d o n ’ t r e c a l l …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: It might have happened. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t m ig h t h a v e h a p p e n e d b u t y o u c a n ’ t r e c a l l ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : So you used the word, natural, w o u ld i t b e n a t u r a l f o r th e G u p t a ’s t o w a n t to fi n d s u p p o r t fo r t h e ir 10 p r o j e c t a n d y o u w e r e i n f a v o u r o f t h e p r o je c t , s o i t a ll f i ts i n a s i t w e r e , t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g e x tr a o r d i n a r y a b o u t th a t a c c o r d i n g t o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h a t’s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g b e c a u s e g e n e r a l ly t h e m e d i a h o u s e s d is c u s s w it h t h is d e p a r t m e n t t h e ir r e l a ti o n s a n d k in d o f o p e r a t io n s t h e y m u s t u n d e r ta k e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s , I m u s t s a y t h e r e – i n f a ir n e s s to y o u M r Z u m a , t h e p r e c is e w o r d s u s e d a r e s o m e w h a t d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e w o r d s u s e d b y M r M a s e k o to t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r, m a y b e I c o u l d a s k y o u , C h a ir to r e a d th e s e o n to th e r e c o r d , I’ m w ill i n g t o g iv e i t a tr y ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t d o c u m e n t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e y ’r e d i ffe r e n t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y s o r r y I t h i n k M r S i k h a k h a n e w a n t s to s a y s o m e t h i n g . P l e a s e c o m e t h r o u g h s o I c a n h e a r. A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: C h a ir I t h in k w e b e tt e r g iv e t h i s w i t n e s s ti m e t o l o o k a t t h e s e t h in g s , n o w a n o th e r d o c u m e n t fr o m e ls e w h e r e , Page 90 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 h e ’s g o t t o r e a d s o m e t h i n g e l s e a n d tr y a n d r e m e m b e r w h e th e r i t ’s t h i s le t t e r, w h e t h e r i t’s th is p h r a s e o r th a t p h r a s e , I d o n ’ t t h i n k i t ’s f a ir, i t ’s tr u ly, tr u l y u n fa ir to t h e w it n e s s , w h i le h e ’s b a t t li n g w it h s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e h a s n ’ t s e e n , t h a t h i s l a w y e r s h a v e n ’t s e e n , s o m e l a p to p c o m e s w i th s o m e t h i n g e ls e e ls e w h e r e , I t h i n k i t – I t h i n k h e n e e d s t o g e t a c h a n c e . CHAIRPERSON: M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , a l t h o u g h M r P r e to r i u s h a d n o t fi n i s h e d , I t h i n k m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s th a t s in c e M r Z u m a h a d in d i c a t e d t h a t h e d o e s n ’ t n o r m a l ly u s e t h e w o r d ( is i Zu l u w o r d ) h e n o r m a l ly u s e s ( i s i Z u l u w o r d ) I th o u g h t t h a t M r P r e t o r i u s w a n t e d to b e 10 f a ir t o h i m t o in d ic a t e t h a t m a y b e M r M a s e k o m i g h t h a v e u s e d d i ff e r e n t w o r d i n g b e f o r e th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r, I’ m n o t s u r e I d o n ’ t t h i n k h e m e a n t t o t a k e t h a t a n y f u r th e r th a n ju s t t o s a y, y o u m a y b e r i g h t b e c a u s e m a y b e e ls e w h e r e d i ffe r e n t w o r d s w e r e u s e d , I t h i n k t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t h e w a n t e d t o s a y, n o th in g m o r e , th a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s i t w a s n ’ t a n e n t ir e l y e l e g a n t a t t e m p t b u t I w a s tr y i n g t o b e f a ir t o M r Z u m a to s a y t h a t o t h e r w o r d s w e r e m e n t i o n e d b e fo r e t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : B u t in a n y e v e n t w h a t w e c a n d o 20 is g e t th o s e p u t o n t o a p i e c e o f p a p e r a n d g i v e t h e m to M r Zu m a t o c o n s i d e r i n h i s o w n t i m e w i th a d v ic e , b u t n o t h i n g m u c h tu r n s o n i t b e c a u s e w e a r e r e a ll y d e a li n g w i th t h e m e a n i n g a n d i m p o r t o f t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n r a th e r th a n t h e p a r t ic u l a r w o r d s u s e d . M r Zu m a i f th e – a n d t h is is a h y p o t h e tic a l q u e s ti o n a n d I u n d e r s t a n d m a y b e d i ffi c u l t f o r y o u t o a n s w e r, b u t i f y o u h a d a n d y o u d o r e c a ll o r d i d r e c a ll m a k in g Page 91 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t h a t te l e p h o n e c a l l i n o r d e r to a s s is t t h e N e w A g e p r o je c t, I u n d e r s t a n d that you would have expected Mr Maseko to take heed of your words, y o u ’r e a f t e r a l l P r e s id e n t , h e ’s a D G ? MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA: N o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly, I d o n ’ t t h i n k s o . D G ’s a r e t h e a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r s th e y d o w h a t is r i g h t, w h a t t h e y t h i n k is n e c e s s a r y to b e d o n e , n o m a t te r w h a t ( i n d is ti n c t) s a y s , i f it w a s s o m e b o d y a b o v e t h e m t h e y w il l s a y, b u t t h e ( in d is ti n c t) I d o n o t a c c e p t t h i s e v e n i f h e a c c e p ts , it ’s n o t t h e r e fo r e a g i v e n th a t i f y o u s a y, c a n y o u d o t h i s , th a t a u t o m a t ic a l ly t h e y w i ll , t h e y ’ r e v e r y – a s 10 a c c o u n t in g o ffic e r s , t h e y ’r e v e r y p a r ti c u la r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , a n d i n fa c t t h a t ’s w h a t o c c u r r e d Mr M a s e k o d id n ’t c o o p e r a t e i n t e r ms o f p a r a g r a p h 1 6 a n d t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 b u t c le a r ly i f s u c h a c o m m u n i c a t io n h a d b e e n m a d e , i t w o u ld h a v e h a d a p u r p o s e , a m I c o r r e c t ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h o u g h I ju s t – I t h i n k I ’v e ju s t answered that one. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w h y – p e r h a p s I s h o u l d n o t tr y a n d p u t t h e q u e s ti o n i n p a r tic u l a r w o r d s , b u t w h y w o u l d s u c h a c a ll be made? 20 MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: W e ll th e r e c o u l d b e r e a s o n s , t h e r e c o u l d b e r e a s o n s p a r ti c u l a r l y i f , a s it w e r e , t h i s is a D G w h o d e a ls w i t h m a t t e r s o f – r e l a ti n g t o th e m e d i a w h e t h e r h e k n e w o r d id n ’ t k n o w t h a t p e r h a p s s in c e o t h e r – I ’ m ju s t m a k i n g i t a s y o u p u t is , s in c e m e d i a a r e s u p p o r t e d fo r a d v e r tis e m e n t y o u c o u l d m a k e t h a t p o i n t e i th e r e m a n a t in g fr o m y o u r k n o w le d g e o r w h a t e v e r. Page 92 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w h a t w e d o h a v e h e r e is , a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g s th e p o s s ib il it y o f a c a ll n a tu r a l is t h e w o r d y o u u s e d , b e i n g m a d e t o M r M a s e k o s a y i n g , th e s e p e o p l e n e e d y o u r h e lp , p l e a s e h e l p th e m ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Uh-hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Okay the substance of that c o m m u n ic a ti o n i s f a ir l y c le a r I d o n ’ t w a n t t o d e b a t e t h a t u n n e c e s s a r i ly w i t h y o u b e c a u s e w e ’r e d e b a t i n g a h y p o t h e ti c a l s i t u a t i o n . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 10 B u t i f s u c h , w h e t h e r i t ’s m a d e o r n o t m a d e , i f s u c h a c a l l is m a d e , w o u l d th a t c a l l h a v e m o v e d a w a y fr o m t h e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e s , w o u l d i t b e tr y in g t o c o m p e l th e D G t o d o a w r o n g th i n g o r w h a t e v e r, e v e n i f t h e c a l l w a s m a d e o r n o t m a d e ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u ’r e s a y in g , y o u ’r e s a y i n g n o th i n g i n t h e c o n t e n t o f t h a t c a ll a s a ll e g e d b y M r M a s e k o is a n a t t e m p t to p e r s u a d e a n y o n e t o d o a n y th i n g u n l a w f u l, i t ’s m e r e ly a r e q u e s t t o h e l p , i s t h a t w h a t y o u ’ r e s a y i n g ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t is w h a t I’ m s a y i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I understand but l a w fu l o r u n l a w f u l i t is a r e q u e s t t o h e l p a n d t h e m a k e r o f t h a t r e q u e s t m i g h t 20 have expected that request to be heeded, otherwise he wouldn’t have m a d e i t , d o I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n c o r r e c t ly ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e l y t h e r e a r e m a n y D G ’s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly i n t h is m a t t e r, s o m e p e o p l e s e e th e Pr e s id e n t a n d s a y lo o k , I’ v e g o t a p r o j e c t o r I c a n d o t h i s k in d o f t h in g b u t m a y b e i t ’s d i ff ic u l t to g e t to s o m e p e o p le a n d w h e n I s a y to t h e p e r s o n w h o ’s Page 93 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 t a lk in g to m e , I h e a r y o u b u t I ’ m n o t d e a l in g w i th th is , I ’l l t a k e t h e m a t t e r fo r w a r d a n d t h e n I p h o n e th e D G . I’ m a t t h is c u r r e n t – t h e y m i g h t e v e n g i v e m e n u m b e r s y o u d e a l w i t h t h e m , m i n e is t o h e l p f a c i li t a te t h e k i n d o f m e e t i n g t h e y ’ ll b e n e e d i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 5 t o 1 6 , o n p a g e s 4 a n d 5 o f M r G u p t a ’s s ta t e m e n t – Mr M a s e k o ’s s t a t e m e n t a b o u t t h e G u p t a ’s …( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Pa ge? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 If you look at page 4, para 15 a n d p a g e 5 , w h ic h w e ’v e d e a l t w i th , p a r a g r a p h 1 6 i t s e e m s th a t a c c o r d i n g t o Mr M a s e k o t h a t c a ll w a s m a d e t o h i m o n t h e v e r y d a y o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d th e i n f e r e n c e is , I t h i n k – w h ic h y o u m a y w a n t to d e a l w i t h i s t h a t t h e c a l l b e i n g m a d e o n t h e v e r y d a y o f t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e G u p t a ’s b y y o u r s e lf , y o u w o u ld h a v e k n o w n th a t th e m e e ti n g w a s ta k i n g p l a c e , d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h a t? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e ll w h e th e r t h e c a ll w a s m a d e o r n o t , i t c o u l d b e a d i ff e r e n t d a y, i t c o u l d b e t h a t d a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll m a y I a s k y o u , d i d y o u k n o w t h a t t h e m e e t in g w a s t o ta k e p l a c e , a n d y o u r e c a l l? 20 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o n o t a t a ll . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n ’ t t h i n k s o ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I don’t think so but as I k n o w, a s I k n e w t h e y w e r e m e e ti n g , g e n e r a l ly p e o p le t o d is c u s s t h e m a t t e r t h a t t h e y w e r e s i t ti n g w i t h h e r e a n d a t s o m e p o i n t t h e y w o u l d h a v e t a l k e d to h i m . Page 94 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Then at page 5, paragraph 23, M r M a s e k o s e t s o u t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n h i ms e lf a n d Mr Ajay Gupta, you may want to take a moment to read on page 6 p a r a g r a p h s 2 4 t o 2 9 a n d t h e n o v e r t h e p a g e p a r a g r a p h 3 0 to 3 1 b e fo r e I a s k y o u f o r y o u r k n o w le d g e a b o u t t h a t a n d a n y o t h e r c o m m e n t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e in r e l a t io n to w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d . A g a i n i t’s i n v e r y s m a ll p r in t a r e y o u w a n ti n g m e to r e a d t h a t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h e t h e r, M r P r e to r i u s , y o u w o u l d n ’ t t e l l h i m t h e p o i n ts t h a t M r M a s e k o m a k e s i n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s a n d s e e w h e t h e r, 10 w i t h th a t , h e i s n o t e n a b l e d t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n b u t i f h e n e e d s to r e a d t h e n w e c a n ta k e it fr o m t h e r e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r i g h t l e t ’s d e a l w i t h p a r a g r a p h 2 4 a n d I’ ll t r y a n d d e a l w i th t h e m a t t e r p o i n t b y p o i n t . Paragraph 24 s a y s t h a t M r A j a y G u p t a t o ld M r M a s e k o th a t t h e G u p ta f a m ily w e r e s e t ti n g u p a m e d i a c o m p a n y w h ic h n e e d e d G o v e r n m e n t s u p p o r t i n t h e f o r m o f a d v e r t is i n g s p e n d , th e c o m p a n y w o u ld h a v e i n te r e s t s i n p r i n t m e d i a a n d a T V s t a t i o n , th e r e ’s n o t h i n g c o n tr o v e r s i a l a b o u t t h a t I s u p p o s e , i t ’s c o n s is t e n t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t , w i t h w h a t y o u s a id th is m o r n in g ? 20 M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 s a y s , h e , t h a t is M r G u p ta , t h e n w e n t o n t o t e ll m e th a t h e w a s a w a r e t h a t G o v e r n m e n t w a s s p e n d in g a b o u t R 6 0 0 m il li o n o n a d v e r t is i n g i n m e d i a p l a t fo r m s a n d h e w a n te d a ll t h a t e x p e n d i t u r e t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d t o h i s c o m p a n y, t h e w o u l d b e m e d ia c o m p a n y. In e s s e n c e h e w a n t e d t h e to t a l Page 95 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 b u d g e t t o b e u t il is e d f o r a d v e r ti s i n g i n t h e t e le v is i o n a n d n e w s p a p e r b u s i n e s s e s t h e G u p t a f a mi ly w a s s e t t in g u p . T h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s h e w a s t o l d th e r e , w a s t h a t Mr G u p ta s a id h e w a n t s t h e w h o le R 6 0 0 m il li o n b u d g e t t o b e u t il is e d t o s u p p o r t t h e t e l e v is io n a n d n e w s p a p e r b u s i n e s s t h e G u p t a f a m i ly w e r e s e t t in g u p , d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f th e e x t e n t o f t h e r e q u e s t? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I have no knowledge of that. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e t h e n s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 , “ I t h e n p r o c e e d e d t o e x p la in h o w t h e b u d g e t a n d p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w o r k e d a n d w h y i t w o u l d n o t b e p o s s i b l e to tr a n s fe r 10 t h e w h o l e b u d g e t t o is c o m p a n y. I t o ld h i m t h a t i n a n y c a s e the budget didn’t sit with us at GCI and that we were merely – a n d t h a t w e m e r e ly a c t e d a s a n a g e n c y f o r th e r e s p e c ti v e G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts ” , W h a t Mr M a s e k o s a i d th e r e , t h a t is c o r r e c t a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p r e v io u s a n s w e r s t h a t t h e b u d g e t w a s t h e – t h e e x p e n d i tu r e o f t h e b u d g e t o n a d v e r ti s i n g w a s u l t i m a te ly a c c o u n t a b l e to th e d e p a r t m e n ts , correct? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s a b s o lu t e l y. D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t if s u c h a r e q u e s t h a d b e e n m a d e t h a t t h e w h o l e R 6 0 0 m il li o n b e a ll o c a te d t o t h e te l e v i s i o n a n d n e w s p a p e r b u s in e s s e s th e G u p t a f a m ily w e r e s e t ti n g u p , w o u l d t h a t b e p r o p e r, i m p r o p e r ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n ’ t th in k I s h o u l d c o m m e n t , I m e a n h e w a s m a k i n g h i s o w n p o i n t o r t a k in g h is o w n c h a n c e s th a t ’s Page 96 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 h e ’s o w n b u s i n e s s I d o n ’t w a n t t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t o n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t d o e s s e e m t h a t i t w o u ld b e taking a chance. MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u , h e t h e n s a y s in paragraph 27, “ H e d i s m is s e d m y e x p l a n a ti o n a n d p r o c e e d e d t o t e ll m e t h a t m y j o b is to g o a n d i d e n ti f y, c o ll e c t a n d a l l o c a t e a l l t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n b u d g e t a m o u n ts i n t h e v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts to 10 is c o m p a n y ” , W o u l d th e s a m e c o m m e n t a p p ly ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s e e m s t o b e ta k i n g a c h a n c e . T h e n h e s a id s o m e t h i n g i n te r e s t i n g a t p a r a g r a p h 2 8 , h e s a id , “He then told me that I should let him know if any department o r M i n is te r g i v e s m e a n y p r o b l e ms a n d h e w o u ld d e a l w i t h t h e m d i r e c t ly. I a s k e d h i m to e l a b o r a te a n d h e t o l d m e th a t h e w i ll p e r s o n a l ly s u m m o n s a n d d e a l w it h a n y M i n i s t e r w h o d o e s n ’t ” , 20 A p a r t fr o m t a k i n g a c h a n c e i t s e e ms t o b e a f a ir l y c o n f i d e n t s t a te m e n t to p u t i t a t i ts le a s t a s r e l a te d b y Mr M a s e k o , if i t h a d b e e n s a i d . I f M r M a s e k o i s t o b e b e li e v e d h e w a s t o l d t h a t M r G u p ta c o u l d d e a l w i t h a n y M in is t e r h e l ik e s w h o d o e s n ’ t f o l lo w h is s u g g e s t i o n , d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n th a t? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No. Page 97 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d i t b e p o s s i b l e fo r Mr G u p t a to h a v e s a i d t h a t? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o , n o I d o n ’t h a v e a c o m m e n t b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y M r G u p t a w a s s a y in g t h a t , I m e a n , y o u c a n a s k h i m … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll d i d h e h a v e t h a t p o w e r, t o y o u r k n o w le d g e ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d h e h a v e t h a t p o w e r, t o y o u r 10 k n o w l e d g e , t o te ll M i n i s t e r s w h a t t o d o ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Why should he have the power t o t e l l M in is t e r s , h e h a d n o t h i n g to d o w it h t h e M i n i s t e r s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t ’s s i m p ly th e q u e s ti o n I’ m a s k in g M r Zu m a . H e t h e n g o e s o n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 9 t o s a y, “ M a t t e r s s u c h a s t h e i n a p p r o p r i a t e n e s s o f w h a t h e is s a y i n g a n d th e i m p r o p r ie ty o f tr y i n g t o o b ta in G o v e r n m e n t b u s i n e s s i n t h is m a t t e r d i d n o t s e e m t o m a t t e r t o M r A j a y G u p t a ” , T h e c o m m e n t M r M a s e k o m a k e s is a f a ir ly c l e a r c o m m e n t a b o u t t h e c o n d u c t o f M r G u p t a . M r G u p t a , i f h e d i d s a y it , a n d y o u ’ v e – 20 t o g e th e r w i th m y q u e s t io n in g p u t i t f a ir l y s u c c i n c tl y a s b e i n g c o n fi d e n t o r ta k i n g a c h a n c e , d id y o u h a v e a n y id e a th a t Mr G u p ta w a s g o i n g t o t h e s e le n g th s i f M r M a s e k o ’s e v id e n c e is tr u e ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: And idea of? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e – w e ll l e t’s p u t i t fr a n k ly t h e c h a n c e s t h a t Mr G u p t a w a s t a k i n g a s r e f le c t e d o n p a g e 6 , d i d y o u h a v e Page 98 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 a n y i d e a th a t h e w a s g o i n g to t h e s e l e n g t h s to s e c u r e th e w h o le a d v e r t is in g b u d g e t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n ts f o r a d v e r t is in g ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A : I h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h h is d is c u s s io n w i t h M a s e k o , w h y s h o u l d I h a v e a n id e a , w h a t is it g o i n g to s a y a b o u t … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e ll t h a t ’s p r e c is e l y t h e q u e s t io n I ’ m a s k i n g b e c a u s e w h a t is h a p p e n i n g h e r e i s , th a t in a p r o j e c t in i ti a te d b y y o u r s e l f i n c o o p e r a ti o n w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m ily th e r e is a n a t t e m p t w it h n o t a li t tl e p e r s u a s io n , f o r c e fu l p e r s u a s i o n t o s o l ic it 10 t h e f u ll R 6 0 0 m il li o n e x p e n d i tu r e o n a d v e r ti s i n g a n d m e d ia p l a t fo r m s t h a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t is r e s p o n s i b le f o r. I t s e e m s o n t h e f a c e o f i t , a n d M r M a s e k o c e r t a i n l y t h o u g h t s o t h a t th is w a s a n i m p r o p e r a p p r o a c h . C e r t a in ly b a c k e d , a s i t w a s b y th e t h r e a t in p a r a g r a p h 2 8 , w o u l d y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Absolutely because Maseko was d o i n g h is j o b , h e c o u l d n ’ t , w h e n s o m e b o d y c o m e s a n d m a k e t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g , a s a D G n o t s t ic k t o a p r o c e d u r e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o i f th a t h a d , h a p p e n e d t h e – w e c a n a g r e e t h a t t h e G u p t a ’s w e r e a c t in g e n tir e l y o u t o f l i n e a n d 20 i m p r o p e r ly ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I’m sure, to say I take the whole b u d g e t e tc e te r a , I m e a n I d o n ’ t w a n t t o e n t e r th a t d is c u s s i o n b e c a u s e I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t w a s h i s i n t e n t io n b u t I c a n ’ t ju s t u n p a c k i t b e c a u s e I k n o w n o t h in g a b o u t th e d is c u s s i o n t h a t t o o k p l a c e b e t w e e n t h o s e t w o , I’ m s u r e G u p ta c a n e x p l a i n b e t t e r. Page 99 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, o f c o u r s e , i f a f te r t h a t m e e t in g b e t w e e n Mr M a s e k o a n d M r G u p t a a r e p o r t h a d b e e n m a d e t o y o u t h a t Mr M a s e k o h a d a g r e e d to g iv e t h e w h o le b u d g e t o f R 6 0 0 m i lli o n t o o n e n e w s p a p e r y o u w o u l d h a v e f o u n d t h a t q u i t e s tr a n g e t o s a y t h e le a s t ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n m y D G w i ll e x p la i n w h y h e h a d to d o s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Why was he doing that? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t i t w o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g u n e x p e c t e d ? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : U n e x p e c te d y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : h a p p e n e d a s Mr M a s e k o s a i d ? A n d in d e e d i m p r o p e r i f i t h a d L e t’s j u s t p l a c e t h e s e q u e s ti o n s i n c o n te x t , y o u ’r e b e in g g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n it y, Mr Z u m a to c o m m e n t o n M r M a s e k o ’s v e r s io n , t h e C h a ir h a s n o t m a d e u p h is mi n d y e t a s t o w h e t h e r th a t v e r s i o n s h o u l d b e a c c e p t e d o r n o t , t h is is ju s t p a r t o f o u r o w n i n v e s ti g a t i o n p r o c e s s , t h is q u e s ti o n i n g . S o o n t h e a s s u m p ti o n th a t M r M a s e k o w a s t e lli n g t h e tr u t h h e r e , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r v e r s i o n i t w o u ld , a t t h e v e r y le a s t b e u n e x p e c te d a n d s o m e t h in g th a t w o u ld c a ll 20 f o r a n e x p l a n a ti o n h a d h e a g r e e d t o i t ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I t h in k I’ v e a n s w e r e d th a t q u e s t io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 3 1 th a t h e r e p o r t e d t h e i n c id e n t t o M r F r a n k C h ik a n e w h o w a s a fo r m e r D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y. N o w i n 2 0 1 0 , O c t o b e r, d o y o u k n o w w h e r e Page 100 of 101 15 JULY 2019 – DAY 133 M r C h i k a n e h e ld a p o s t ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n o t h e r w o r d s w o u ld M r C h ik a n e h a v e r e p o r t e d t o y o u i n a n y c a p a c i ty a t th a t ti m e , y o u s e e i f I m a y t a k e y o u to p a r a g r a p h 3 1 o n p a g e 7 y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h i s i n c id e n t w a s r e p o r t e d a c c o r d i n g t o Mr M a s e k o b y h i m s e l f t o M r Fr a n k C h i k a n e a f o r m e r D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y. D i d y o u r e c e i v e a n y r e p o r t fr o m M r Fr a n k C h i k a n e ? MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 10 N o th e s e – a c t u a l ly t h e s e a r e o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s b e t w e e n t h e D G – t h e D G ’s a n d p e o p l e a t th a t le v e l, w e d o n ’ t d e a l w i th t h o s e m a t t e r s r e a l ly t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e to b e reported to the President. Chair w h ils t h e ’s reading, could I g o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: An adjournment? M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : F o r a m i n u te . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e a r e a t t e n t o f o u r, w e n o r m a lly s t o p a t fo u r, m a y b e w e s h o u l d s t o p n o w a n d th e n p r o c e e d t o m o r r o w, I t h i n k t h a t w o u ld b e m o r e c o n v e n i e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, y e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w i ll a d j o u r n n o w a n d r e s u m e t o m o r r o w, t h a n k y o u very much. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 6 J U LY 2 0 1 9 Page 101 of 101