C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

16 AUGUST 2019

D AY 1 4 6

20

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
PROCEEDINGS ON 16 AUGUST 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

morning

Ms

Gcabashe,

good

morning

e v e r y b o d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Good morning DCJ.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s w e a r e D C J .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

I ju s t w o u l d lik e my c o l l e a g u e s fr o m

B l o e m f o n t e i n t o p u t o n r e c o r d a d v is e y o u a s t o w h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n
10

able to do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s w i t h r e g a r d to …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I f th a t is in o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Document yes let us do it ja.
M R J A C O B S : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
MR JACOBS:

C h a ir I w o u ld ju s t l ik e to p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d C h a ir w il l

r e m e m b e r y e s t e r d a y t h e r e w a s a r e q u e s t o r a d i s c u s s io n w i t h r e g a r d t o
t h e a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

M R J A C O B S : T h e u n s i g n e d a ffi d a v i t I c a n p u t o n r e c o r d is in li n e w it h
t h e s i g n e d o n e t h a t is i n t h e b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOBS:

D o y o u a ls o r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e r e w a s a r e q u e s t w i t h

r e g a r d s t o t h e a n n e x u r e s a n d th e r e a d a b i li ty th e r e o f C h a ir.

We have

g o n e t h r o u g h a n e ff o r t I w i ll n o t g o i n t o d e t a il b u t w e c a n – t h e

Page 2 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
a n n e x u r e s t h a t is a t t a c h e d t o t h a t a ffi d a v i t i s v i s u a lly i n a b e tt e r f o r m
now and can be read and we have handed over such to my learned.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h t h a t is v e r y g o o d I r e a l ly

a p p r e c ia t e th a t .
M R J A C O B S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u r e a d y t o p r o c e e d ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s I a m C h a i r m a n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : M r T h a b e th e th e o a t h y o u t o o k y e s t e r d a y c o n ti n u e s t o
a p p ly u n ti l y o u h a v e f i n is h e d y o u r e v i d e n c e o k a y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Mr T h a b e th e w h e n w e w e r e h a v i n g o u r

h e a r in g y e s t e r d a y w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g P a r a s . I i n d ic a t e d t o y o u th a t I
h a v e a r e a l i n t e r e s t in h o w P a r a s g o t in v o lv e d w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t . In
y o u r m e m o r a n d u m y o u h a d i n d ic a te d t h e m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e Fr e e
S t a te P r e m i e r y o u h a d m o t iv a t e d to g o t o I n d i a . W e d i s c u s s e d th a t i n
q u i te a b i t o f d e ta il b u t t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o o th e r a s p e c ts r e l a t e d t o
20

t h a t m e m o r a n d u m a n d I w o u l d li k e t o e x p l o r e w i t h y o u . O n e o f t h e fir s t
o n e s – i n fa c t w h a t I t h i n k I s h o u l d d o is j u s t t o v e r y b r i e f ly s u m m a r is e
w h e r e I t h i n k m o r e o r l e s s w e w e r e o n t h e is s u e s r e la t in g t o P a r a s . S o
w e h a d d e a l t w i t h M r N a r a y a n ’s tr a v e l e x p e n s e s b e in g p a i d f o r b y t h e
D e p a r t m e n t, y e s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d th e n i n th e e v i d e n c e y o u g a v e y e s t e r d a y
w e a l s o e s t a b li s h e d t h a t M r N a r a y a n a s a t t h e 2 8 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 h a d
n o t b e e n a p p o i n te d to t h e A d v is o r y C o u n c il o f t h e P r e m ie r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Yo u a ls o e x p l a i n e d t o th e C h a ir m a n o n t h e

C h a ir m a n ’s q u e s ti o n r e a lly t h a t i n c o n c e p tu a l is in g th e d a ir y f a r m
p r o j e c t f o r t h e F r e e S t a t e y o u r in t e n t i o n w a s t o e x t e n d d a ir y fa r m i n g t o
lo c a l c o m m u n i ti e s , e m e r g i n g fa r m e r s i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e w h o w o u ld th e n
n o t o n ly s u p p ly m il k t o t h e d a ir y b u t a l s o b e e q u i t y b e n e fic i a r i e s o f th is
10

p r o j e c t , d id – i s t h a t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W a s t h a t y o u r e v id e n c e ? E x c e l le n t . P a r t o f
t h e m o t iv a ti o n y o u s e t o u t i n t h a t le t t e r f o r i d e n t if y i n g P a r a s a s th e
id e a l s tr a t e g ic p a r tn e r w a s t h a t – a n d c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g o r if I
m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u , y o u l ik e d th e i r b u s in e s s m o d e l b e c a u s e t h e y
c o l l e c t e d m i lk fr o m c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r s a n d p r o c e s s e d t h is m i lk in t h e ir
o w n p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . T h i s is w h a t a t tr a c t e d y o u to t h e m ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

20

A n d t h a t is w h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s o k a y.

N o w t w o t h i n g s I w a n t t o c l a r i fy w i t h y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e M s G c a b a s h e r e m in d w h a t p a g e th a t d o c u m e n t
is ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: I f y o u w il l ju s t g iv e m e o n e – I d o a p o l o g i s e
C h a ir m a n .

C h a ir m a n I f o u n d q u i te a f e w c l e a r c o p i e s o f th e s a m e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n t h e C o u r t R e c o r d .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o I k n o w I a m c o m p l ic a ti n g y o u r li f e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e l o o k in g fo r t h o s e o n e s ja .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t if I m i g h t a s k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : To l o o k a t t h e C o u r t R e c o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Th e – C h a ir m a n w e w i ll b e b a c k w i th y o u in a
m i n u t e w i t h t h a t p a r tic u la r p a g e r e fe r e n c e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e .
ADV

LEAH

GCABASHE:

But

the

c o n te x t

is

that

p a r t ic u l a r

memorandum.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t h a d th e m il l io n m il li o n s o n i t . T h a t is th e
o n e w e lo o k i n g f o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o in th a t m e m o r a n d u m y o u – y o u h a d s e t o u t
a p a r ti c u la r m o t iv a ti o n b u t I w o u l d lik e to t a k e y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 4 0 o f
your …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e M s G c a b a s h e y o u c a n t e ll m e t h e p a g e o f th e
o n e t h a t w a s n o t s o c l e a r th a t w e w e r e u s i n g y e s t e r d a y i f t h a t i s
e a s i e r ? I c a n u s e i t f o r – s o – u n t il w e g e t th e c le a r e r c o p y w h e r e i t i s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : 1 3 2 3 Fi l e D – R e f e r e n c e Fi l e D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e fe r e n c e P il e – F il e B ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D – D for Donald.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : D fo r D o n a l d . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t is t h e p a g e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 1323.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

13?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 23.
CHAIRPERSON:

One second.

Ye s , n o I fo u n d i t t h a t is t h e o n e t h a t

h a s g o t R 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I n d e e d s o C h a ir m a n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

I w o u l d a t th e s a m e ti m e a s k y o u w h il e y o u

h o l d o n t o p a g e 1 3 2 3 o f R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e B t o a ls o p u ll o u t y o u r
w i t n e s s b u n d le H H 1 0 w h i c h h a s y o u r a ff id a v it s .

Yo u r b u n d l e – y e s .

W h i c h w e c a ll t h e w i t n e s s b u n d l e y e s . I f y o u c o u ld p l e a s e g o to p a g e
1 0 9 w e a r e l o o k i n g a t p a r a g r a p h 4 0 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t . C h a ir m a n i f y o u
w a n t t o l o o k a t th e c l e a r e r c o p y t h a t h a s b e e n p u t r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f
y o u r fi le it is p a r a g r a p h 4 0 t h a t w e w il l b e l o o k i n g a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t h a s th e n u m b e r a t t h e to p M P T – r e f e r e n c e
20

M P T 1 0 9 r i g h t o n t h e t o p r ig h t h a n d s id e i f y o u h a v e t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t
I h a v e C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y I – I th o u g h t t h e d o c u m e n t y o u a r e

r e fe r r i n g t o w a s t h e a ff id a v i t o f w h ic h I n o w h a v e a c l e a r e r c o p y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t is in d e e d t h a t o n e C h a ir m a n . S o i f y o u j u s t
go to paragraph 40 of that we are on the same…

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w e n t th e r e b u t I d i d n o t s e e th e h e a d i n g th a t y o u a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t t h a t is w h a t c o n f u s e d m e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e – I a m l o o k in g a t 4 0 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : 4 0 t h a t p a r a g r a p h . A n d i t s t a r ts o ff w i t h t h e
g o a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t it . I t s ta r t w i t h t h e g o a l w a s …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE: So Mr Thabethe you have noted in this 2018
a ffi d a v i t t h a t – a n d t h i s is w h a t y o u h a v e w r it t e n :
“ T h e g o a l w a s t o p r o c u r e a n d e s t a b li s h a d a ir y fa r m
f o r th e p r o d u c ti o n o f m i lk t o s e t u p m il k p r o d u c t io n –
I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – m i lk p r o c u r e m e n t c e n tr e s a t
w h ic h l o c a l f a r m e r s c o u l d s e l l a n d s u p p l y th e i r m i lk
a n d to s e t u p a p r o d u c ti o n a n d p r o c e s s in g fa c il i ty
w h e r e t h e m il k c o u l d b e p r o c e s s e d , m a r k e t e d a n d
sold.”
Yo u h a v e s e e n t h a t p a r a g r a p h ?

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

N o w i f w e g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 3 2 3 w h ic h w a s

y o u r m e m o r a n d u m y o u n o t e d t h e r e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 .2 t h a t th e r e w e r e
t h r e e d a ir y fa r ms t h a t y o u h a d e n v is a g e d s e tt i n g u p . O n e i n Vr e d e , o n e
w h ic h y o u – w o u l d b e c a ll e d t h e S e s o th o I n te g r a te d Pr o j e c t a n d t h e
t h ir d o n e w o u l d b e in Q w a Q w a , a m I c o r r e c t ?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o t h e q u e s ti o n is , i n r e s p e c t o f th e s e t h r e e
d a ir y f a r m s h a d y o u i n te n d e d h a v in g a l l th r e e e l e m e n ts t h a t y o u
m e n ti o n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it t h a t is t h e p r o d u c ti o n o f m il k ,
t h e e s ta b l is h m e n t o f a p r o c u r e m e n t c e n tr e a n d th e p r o d u c ti o n o f a
p r o c e s s in g fa c i li ty.

Is t h a t w h a t y o u h a d i n te n d e d fo r t h e t h r e e d a ir y

farms?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r o r i g i n a l ly w h e n w e – w e

a l lo c a t e d a b u d g e t o f R 1 7 m ill i o n w a s t o d e a l w i th t h e th r e e d a ir i e s t o
10

a s s is t th e s m a ll h o l d e r fa r m e r s .
s m a ll h o l d e r d a ir y f a r m e r s .

T h a t w a s o n ly t o a s s i s t t h e m o n a

N o w h a v i n g l e a r n t t h a t s m a l l d a ir i e s w e r e

not successful we – as we proceeded we then changed the idea.

We

d i d n o t c l o s e th e m d o w n b u t w e c h a n g e d t h e i d e a o f n o t o n ly s u p p o r t in g
t h e s m a l l h o ld e r f a r m e r s t o e s ta b l is h d a ir i e s . T h a t w a s o r i g i n a l ly w h a t
t h e m o n e y w a s i n t e n d e d f o r. B u t t h e n w e c a m e w i t h a n i d e a o f n o t o n ly
h e l p i n g d a ir y b u t a ls o to d o p r o c e s s i n g a n d p r o c u r e m e n t w h i c h m e a n t
t h a t w e l o o k e d f o r a b i g g e r o p ti o n . K e e p i n g i n m in d t h a t w e h a d t h r e e
a r e a s t h a t w e n e e d e d to s u p p o r t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:
20

C a n I – i f t h e C h a ir m a n w i ll a ll o w m e t o

in t e r r u p t y o u ? M a y b e I s h o u l d m a k e m y q u e s ti o n c l e a r e r. I a m s i m p l e
in t e r p r e t in g w h a t i s w r i tt e n i n t h i s l e tt e r a n d I d o n o t w a n t y o u to r u n
t o o f a r a h e a d i n te r ms o f t h e d e v e l o p m e n t s t h a t t o o k p l a c e a t w h a te v e r
phase and point in time.

I a m r e a ll y h e r e a t t h e d a t e o n w h i c h y o u

m a d e t h e s u b m is s i o n w h i c h w a s th e 2 4 F e b r u a r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .

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ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A s a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e y o u h a d th r e e d a ir y

p r o j e c ts in m i n d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A n d t h e q u e s t i o n w a s f o r a ll th r e e h a d y o u

in t e n d e d to e s t a b l is h n o t ju s t a p r o c u r e m e n t c e n t r e a n d p r o c e s s i n g
f a c i li ty b u t a ls o y o u w e r e g o i n g t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e y w o u ld h a v e –
h a v e m il k p r o d u c e d a t th e c e n t r e . S o y o u h a d t h r e e e l e m e n ts t h a t y o u
h a d p o i n t e d t o i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e p la n w a s n o t to d o t h e s a m e t h in g
10

in a l l t h r e e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A h t h a t h e lp s .

But the plan when you

s u b m i tt e d t h is d o c u m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W a s to h a v e t h r e e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e b u d g e t t h a t e x is t e d w a s fo r t h r e e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . B e c a u s e I w a n t t o b e s u r e t h a t th e R 1 7
m il li o n f o r t h e t h r e e d a ir y p l a n s I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th e p la n s
w o u ld b e s i m i la r o r w o u ld t h e p l a n s b e d i ff e r e n t p l a n s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t h e y w i ll b e d i ff e r e n t C h a ir.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A n d y o u w i ll l a t e r p o in t u s t o w h a te v e r

d o c u m e n t y o u h a v e s u p p o r ti n g w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a b o u t t h r e e
d i ff e r e n t p l a n s . W h e n w e g e t t h e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e w e d e b a t e d t h e R 1 7 m i lli o n
t h e c o s t o f R 1 7 m i ll io n y e s t e r d a y w h ic h w a s m o n e y th a t h a d b e e n

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
a l lo c a t e d fo r th r e e d a ir y p la n s . J u s t a g a in in t e r p r e ti n g w h a t y o u s a i d t o
t h e P r e m i e r w h e n y o u s u b m i t te d th is d o c u m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: J a I ju s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e P r e m i e r
u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e r e q u e s t i n g fr o m h i m .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Ja.

W e a ls o y e s t e r d a y d is c u s s e d w h a t I

c a l l e d p u t ti n g t h e c a r t b e f o r e t h e h o r s e .

So what I was expressing

y e s t e r d a y w a s t h a t t h e r e o u g h t r e a ll y t o h a v e b e e n a p r e - fe a s i b i li ty
10

s t u d y b e f o r e y o u w e n t o ff t r y in g t o p u t t o g e t h e r a d a ir y fa r m a n d y o u
d is a g r e e d w it h m e a n d s a id t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r a p r e - f e a s i b il it y
s t u d y b e fo r e y o u s p e n t R 1 7 m i ll io n o n p l a n s a n d m o r e m o n e y o n o th e r
things.

D i d I – a r e y o u w i th m e ?

I a m n o t m i s i n te r p r e ti n g w h a t y o u

said yesterday?
MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE: No maybe let me repeat. I am – my
u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h e is s u e o f w h e n – w h a t w e w e r e d i s c u s s in g w a s
t h e is s u e o f s p e n d i n g t h e m o n e y b e fo r e t h e f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Correct.
MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE: Then my argument was that to do the
20

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y y o u n e e d t h e m o n e y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Correct.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And what I had proposed to you was before
y o u e v e n s ta r t a l lo c a t in g m o n e y y o u r e a ll y n e e d t o h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h
a n e x e r c i s e w h e r e y o u d e c i d e o n w h e th e r y o u w i ll h a v e t h e m o n e y,

Page 10 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
w h e t h e r y o u h a v e c h o s e n t h e r ig h t i d e a e tc e t e r a , e tc e te r a a n d I j u s t
t h o u g h t o f a b e t t e r t e r m o v e r n ig h t .
f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y.

A n d o n e c o u l d c a ll t h a t a p r e -

I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t y o u d id d o a f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y s o I

a m n o t c o n te s ti n g t h a t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

T h e i d e a I w a s p u t t in g to y o u w a s t h a t o f

d o i n g s o m e k i n d o f c h e c k o n w h e t h e r t h is r e a l ly w a s t h e r o o t y o u
w a n t e d to g o .

A l e s s e x p e n s iv e w a y o f s p e n d in g g o v e r n m e n t m o n e y.

T h a t is – s o I a m s i m p l y t i d y i n g u p th e l a n g u a g e I u s e d y e s t e r d a y in
10

s a y in g m y p r o p o s a l w a s a b o u t a p r e - f e a s ib il i ty s tu d y w h i c h I w o u ld
h a v e t h o u g h t w o u l d b e l e s s c o s t ly.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is t r u e C h a ir a n d t h a t is e x a c t ly
t h e p r o c e s s w e f o ll o w e d a s y o u c a n c h e c k in t h e d o c u m e n t t h e r e a r e
t w o f e a s i b i li ty s t u d i e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e w il l g e t t o t h e m . T h e y a r e – w e w il l g e t
there.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

T h e n a g a i n s t il l s t a y in g w it h t h is p a r ti c u la r

v is it y o u l o d g e d t h i s m o tiv a ti o n w i th t h e P r e m i e r o n t h e 2 4 F e b r u a r y
20

2012. I am simply looking at when you signed the document. So that
is w h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e g i v e n i t t o t h e Pr e m i e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

N o w a t t h a t s t a g e th a t i s p r i o r to g e tt i n g

p e r m is s io n fr o m t h e Pr e m i e r to g o o n t h a t tr ip t o In d ia h a d y o u b e e n in
c o n ta c t w i t h P a r a s ?

Page 11 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h e n d id y o u f ir s t s t a r t c o n t a c t in g P a r a s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I f I – I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly b u t
it w a s a r o u n d D e c e m b e r w h e n I s t a r t e d in t e r a c ti n g w i th P a r a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is D e c e m b e r w h ic h y e a r ? 2 0 11 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : 2 0 11 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: S o y o u a r r i v e i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n A u g u s t o f
2 0 11 .

W e k n o w th a t M E C Z w a n e m e n t i o n e d t h i s p r o j e c t to M r R o y

J a n k i e ls o h n s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d N o v e m b e r – O c to b e r /N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .
10

In December you contact Paras.

Yo u o f c o u r s e h a d c o n d u c t e d y o u r

d e s k t o p s t u d y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And you then contact Paras.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Who suggested that you should contact Paras
at that point in time?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s m y in i ti a tiv e C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D i d y o u t e l e p h o n e t h e m , d id y o u e m a i l t h e m ,
what did you do as you contacted them?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I c a ll e d C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W h e r e d id y o u g e t t h e t e l e p h o n e n u m b e r s

fr o m ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir i n t h e ir w e b s i te th e y h a v e t h e

telephone numbers.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W h o i n P a r a s w e r e y o u a b le to c o n t a c t th e

Page 12 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
fir s t t i m e y o u m a d e c o n t a c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: I c o n ta c t e d th e ir o ff ic e w h ic h w a s in
New Delhi.

Th a t – th e n I r e q u e s t e d t o t a lk t o s o m e b o d y w h o c o u ld

a s s is t m e w i t h r e g a r d t o th e ir b u s in e s s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u d id n o t t h i n k i t p r u d e n t t o u s e t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n H i g h C o m m i s s i o n to t r y a n d c o n t a c t P a r a s o r t o a s s is t y o u ?
Yo u a r e a m a n o f p r o t o c o l. Yo u d id n o t tr y u s in g t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n H i g h
Commission?
MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE: Chair you do use them when – when
10

y o u a lr e a d y k n o w w h a t y o u w a n t to d o s o t h a t y o u p r o v i d e th e m th e
in f o r m a ti o n o f w h a t y o u w a n t t o d o .
business

th a t

you

i n t e r e s te d

in

B e c a u s e y o u n e e d to c l e a r t h e
b e fo r e

you

contact

th e

High

Commission.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

S o w h e n y o u c o n t a c t e d P a r a s w h a t i d e a d id

y o u h a v e i n m in d a t t h e t i m e ? B e c a u s e i t w a s b e fo r e t h e 2 4 F e b r u a r y
s o y o u w e r e n o t l o o k i n g f o r a s tr a te g ic p a r t n e r I s e e th a t i n t h e l e t te r o f
the 24th. What did you have in mind when you contacted them?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C le a r ly w h a t I w a n t e d t o d o w a s t o

v is it a n d g o a n d s e e th e ir o p e r a t i o n s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE: So by December you had taken a decision to
g o a n d v is i t P a r a s a n d l o o k a t th e f a c i li t ie s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e – m y c o n t a c t w a s t o fi n d o u t

w h e t h e r th e y w o u l d a g r e e t h e r e w o u l d b e p o s s i b il it i e s o f a l lo w i n g u s t o
c o m e a n d h a v e – a n d s e e t h e ir o p e r a ti o n s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Do you recall who then gave you a response

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
a s y o u – w h o d i d y o u s p e a k t o te le p h o n ic a ll y a n d w h o r e s p o n d e d t o
y o u r e n q u ir y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t h i n k in th e d o c u m e n ts e v e n t u a ll y

w h e n I c a ll e d …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o I d o n o t w a n t e v e n tu a lly I a m s t il l t a lk i n g
a b o u t t h a t f ir s t c a l l . I r e a l ly d o n o t w a n t to g e t t h i s m ix e d u p . W h e n
y o u f ir s t c a ll e d t h a t is w h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s I c a l le d t h e n u m b e r i t w e n t i n to

t h e ir o ff ic e a n d t h e n I t h e n r e q u e s te d s o m e b o d y th a t I c o u l d t a l k t o w h o
10

c o u l d a s s i s t u s w i t h t h e o p e r a t io n s t h a t t h e y a r e h a v i n g i n te r ms o f a
d a ir y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Who did you say you were when you called?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I h a d e x p l a i n e d my s e l f th a t I a m

c a l li n g fr o m S o u t h A fr ic a a s a h e a d o f a P r o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e s o I e x p l a i n e d m y s e l f w h o I w a s a n d t h e n I
t h e n r e q u e s t e d t o t a lk to s o m e b o d y t h e r e w h o c o u l d a s s is t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A n d w h a t th e r e s p o n s e c o n ti n u e y o u w e r e

e x p l a i n in g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e y a c t u a ll y g a v e m e t h e n a m e o f a
20

p e r s o n w h o c o u l d a s s is t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : G iv e u s t h a t n a m e p le a s e M r Th a b e t h e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e p e r s o n t h a t – w h o w a s th e h e a d
o f t h e o ff ic e w a s a ls o i n d ic a te d I th in k i t w a s – le t m e ju s t c h e c k th e
c o r r e c t n a m e f r o m m y a ff id a v i t? M y a p o l o g y C h a ir f o r d e l a y in g I d i d n o t
a n t ic i p a te .

Page 14 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f in e . N o , n o y o u c a n l o o k f o r th e n a m e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s G c a b a s h e c a n – m ig h t d e c i d e t h a t t o m o v e o n to
o th e r t h i n g s t h e n d u r in g t h e te a b r e a k y o u m i g h t l o o k a t i t m o r e i f h e r
p l a n s i n te r m s o f h e r q u e s t io n s p e r m i t t h a t . B u t – h a v e y o u f o u n d it ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hey no no.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh not yet.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I k n o w t h a t th e o n e n a m e I h a v e c o m e a c r o s s
is t h a t o f M r G a ji e n d e r K u m a r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : K u m a r y e s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W o u l d t h a t – t h a t is t h e o n e n a m e I h a v e

come across.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s t h a t is t h e c o r r e c t – t h a t i s

c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : J a . Is th a t th e p e r s o n y o u c o n t a c te d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t w a s th e p e r s o n I w a s t o ld h e

w a s t h e h e a d o f th e o ff ic e a t t h a t ti m e .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O k a y. W h e n w a s t h e n e x t ti m e y o u ta lk e d –
and you spoke to him on that day?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I w a s a b l e t o ta lk t o h i m o n t h a t d a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d h e w a s p o s i t iv e in h i s r e s p o n s e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: H e w a s v e r y p o s i t iv e . H e w e lc o m e d
u s t o c o m e a n d s e e . W e s p o k e a b o u t q u i t e a n u m b e r o f th in g s o f w h ic h

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s o m e o f t h e m h e w a s h i g h li g h ti n g t h a t a lo t o f p e o p l e c o m e a n d v is i t
t h e ir fa c to r i e s , s t e a l i d e a s a n d a l l th o s e k in d s o f t h i n g s .

Those were

t h e th in g s t h a t h e w a s s a y in g . H e w a s w a r y a b o u t ju s t t o p e r m i t p e o p l e
b u t h e d o e s n o t h a v e a n y p r o b l e m t o p e o p le c o m in g t o s e e a n d d is c u s s
with him.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : L e t u s c o n t in u e . N o w y o u t h e n h a d t o m a k e
p r e p a r a ti o n s to g o t o In d i a I p r e s u m e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir I – a ft e r I h a v e s p o k e n t o
h i m t h a t w a s n o t t h e o n ly t i m e I h a d s p o k e n to h i m t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t
10

ti m e I h a d s p o k e n t o h i m . A f t e r t h e D e c e m b e r h o l id a y I a ls o s p o k e t o
h i m la t e J a n u a r y g iv in g a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t w e w o u l d t h e n c o n fir m t h a t
w e w o u l d w a n t t o c o m e , . W e w o u l d i n fo r m h i m a s s o o n a s w e g e t t h e
n e c e s s a r y a p p r o v a l t h a t w e w il l b e c o m in g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

O k a y.

Yo u t h e n p r e p a r e d t h e m o t iv a t i o n fo r

t h e P r e m i e r w h o s e r e s p o n s e y o u r e c e iv e d o n t h e 2 8 Fe b r u a r y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A n d a g a in j u s t f o r m y o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g in

y o u r m in d w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o d o w a s g o a n d d o s o m e fo r m o f d u e
d i li g e n c e i n s p e c ti o n o f t h e s e p e o p l e w h o y o u w e r e in t e r e s t e d i n , t h e ir
20

company?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e ir c o m p a n y y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

B e c a u s e I k n o w t h e r e a r e le g a l a n d

c o m m e r c ia l d u e d il ig e n c e e x e r c i s e s . Is t h a t w h a t y o u h a d i n m in d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: Yo u t h e n g e t a r e s p o n s e o n t h e 2 9 t h b u t y o u

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
fl y o n t h e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n o n t h e 2 8 t h a n d b y th e 2 9 t h y o u h a v e a
ti c k e t a n d M r N a r a y a n h a s a ti c k e t t o fl y t o N e w D e l h i .

How did you

m a n a g e t o a r r a n g e f o r t h a t tr i p i n s u c h a s h o r t s p a c e o f t i m e ?

Yo u r

a p p r o v a l y o u g e t o n th e 2 8 t h , y o u l e a v e t h e v e r y n e x t d a y o n th e 2 9 t h .
J u s t h e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d w h o w a s t h is e ffi c ie n t i n m a k i n g s u r e y o u c o u ld
le a v e o n t h e 2 9 t h ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i f y o u l o o k a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m
t h e r e h a d b e e n s o m e t i m e t h a t I h a d s u b m i t te d i t. N o w y o u – k n o w in g
that you had dates that you have recomm ended you would not sit back
10

a n d s a y b e c a u s e I d i d n o t h a v e a r e s p o n s e th e r e fo r e I a m n o t m a k i n g
the necessary arrangement.

So you do the necessary arrangement in

case you receive the approval.

B e c a u s e t h o s e d a te s w e a g r e e d w i t h

t h e p e o p le t h a t w e a r e v is it i n g .
r e n e g o ti a te n e w d a t e s .

I f n o t t h e n y o u w i ll t h e n h a v e to

S o t h o s e a p p r o v a l – t h o s e a r r a n g e m e n ts y o u

m a k e a h e a d s o t h a t i f y o u g e t t h e a p p r o v a l t h e la s t d a y o f y o u r
d e p a r t u r e y o u a r e r e a d y t o b e a b l e to g o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

So you - you do those arrangements

a h e a d o f ti m e .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u h a d p u r c h a s e d y o u r ti c k e t s a lr e a d y
b y th e 2 9 t h - b y t h e 2 8 t h - l e t m e j u s t g o a d a y b a c k - w h e n th e p r e mi e r
gave his approval?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t - i t is n o t th e p u r c h a s e C h a ir. I t i s
- i t is a - w h a t is th e c o r r e c t w o r d ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e s e r v a ti o n ?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a r e s e r v a t io n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r e s e r v e d s e a ts ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

Yo u - y o u t a l k to t h e tr a v e l

a g e n t. T h e y r e s e r v e th o s e s e a ts fo r y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h o s e p a r t ic u l a r d e t a i ls C h a ir m a n a r e o n
p a g e 1 - 3 - 2 - 5 o f th e d o c u m e n t t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t .

W h a t is o f

in t e r e s t Mr T h a b e t h e … ?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o r r y C h a ir.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t is o f i n t e r e s t … ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: What page?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 1 - 3 - 2 - 5 . S o i t is th e s a m e m e m o r a n d u m .
Yo u a r e q u i t e c o r r e c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The same m emorandum which was on the
r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e . M r T h a b e t h e a r e y o u t h e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u f o u n d th e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I h a v e …

20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F li g h t d e ta il s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I have got it.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th e - y o u s e e b e c a u s e i t is d a te d

2 4 F e b r u a r y b u t a g a i n s o t h e s e a r e q u o t e s th a t y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F o r t h e s e f li g h ts ? W h a t I n o ti c e d w a s y o u

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
le f t o n 2 9 F e b r u a r y. Yo u a r r iv e d in N e w D e l h i o n 1 M a r c h t h e n e x t d a y
a t 1 0 - in fa c t a t 1 4 :4 5 .

A t q u a r t e r t o t h r e e i n th e a f t e r n o o n .

So I

p r e s u m e y o u g o t t o y o u r h o te l a t a b o u t f o u r / 5 o ’ c l o c k .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

On 1 March.

By 3 M a r c h - s o o n e d a y

p a s s e s . T h a t i s p r o b a b ly th e d a y y o u v is it e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n 3 M a r c h a t 11 o ’ c lo c k in t h e m o r n i n g 1 0 t o 11 y o u a r e l e a v i n g N e w D e lh i .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: What were you able to achieve in more or
le s s t h e 2 4 h o u r s y o u h a d i n N e w D e l h i M r T h a b e th e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir a s - a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h e -

t h e p u r p o s e o f th e m is s i o n w a s a s I h a v e i n d ic a te d t o c o n f ir m t h a t t h e r e
- th e r e is a n e x i s te n t t h e - o f - o f t h e c o m p a n y i t s e l f b e c a u s e i f - i f y o u
o n t h e w e b y o u m a y b e li e v e t h e c o m p a n y e x i s ts w h e n i t d o e s n o t e x is t .
I t w a s f o r m e to g o t h e r e a n d c o n fir m . W e h a d a m e e t in g w i t h t h e m .
T h e y t o o k m e th r o u g h t h e ir c o m p a n y, t h r o u g h a p r e s e n ta t io n .
W e v is it e d th e s i te a n d I c o n f ir m e d th e p r o d u c t t h a t t h e y w e r e s a y in g
20

t h e y w e r e p r o d u c i n g a n d a n u m b e r o f o t h e r i s s u e s t h a t I w a s a b le t o
s a y y e s i n d e e d t h is c o m p a n y e x is ts a n d i f t h e y a r e i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h
u s w e c a n d o b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e m . T h a t - t h a t w a s th e i n te n ti o n C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A t w h a t t i m e d i d y o u a r r iv e a t th e

c o m p a n y ’s o ff ic e s o n 2 M a r c h ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir b u t it w a s

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
in t h e s a m e t o w n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u w e n t t h e r e i n t h e m o r n i n g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e w e n t t h e r e in th e m o r n i n g .

We

s t a r t e d i n th e o ff ic e w h e r e w e h a d d i s c u s s io n s a n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t w e
t h e n w e n t t o v is it t h e ir fa c to r y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Now they have a number of what you are
c a l li n g f a c t o r i e s .

N o w I a m a s s u m i n g t h a t y o u a r e i n te r e s te d in

p r o c e s s in g p l a n t s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Th e y - t h e y h a v e a n u m b e r o f - o f

f a c to r i e s s p r e a d t h r o u g h o u t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P le a s e d e f i n e a f a c t o r y s o w e u n d e r s t a n d
w h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t M r T h a b e th e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

The - the processing plant is where

t h e y r e c e iv e t h e m i lk w h e r e i t i s b r o u g h t in b y th e ta n k e r s a n d t h e n i t
g o e s th r o u g h a l l t h e p r o c e s s e s u n ti l w h e t h e r t h e y m a k e c h e e s e o r t h e y
make yoghurt whatever that they want to make.

S o th a t is t h e

p r o c e s s in g fa c i li ty w e v i s i t e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u w e n t to t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p r o c e s s i n g
f a c i li ty t h a t is i n - y o u s a y - i n N e w D e lh i?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - it w a s in N e w D e l h i .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well she had asked you to tell her more about the

f a c to r y. I s th a t w h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g t o w h e n y o u s a id y o u w e n t t o
t h e ir fa c t o r y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

It - i t - C h a ir i t - i t is - I w il l

a l t e r n a t iv e ly u s e a f a c t o r y o r a p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t .

Page 20 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It r e f e r s t o t h e s a m e …
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o s h e j u s t w a n te d to b e s u r e th a t s h e

u n d e r s t a n d s w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u s a y fa c to r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w a s it M r K u m a r h i m s e l f w h o t o o k y o u
o n t h i s t o u r o f t h e f a c i li t y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o f o r m e d p a r t o f h is d e le g a ti o n w h e n

you met him?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e - h e h a d a t e a m o f p e o p le t h a t w e
s a t w i t h i n th e o ffi c e a n d t h e n w h e n w e w e n t o n s i te i t w a s o n l y h i m a n d
a n o t h e r g e n t le m a n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u - y o u - i f y o u h a v e t h e n a m e s

M r T h a b e t h e i t i s u s e f u l f o r y o u t o m e n t io n th e n a m e s o f t h e o th e r
g e n tl e m e n o r l a d ie s w h o w e r e p a r ty t o w h a t y o u w e r e tr y i n g to a c h i e v e .
It just helps. Do you know who he was with because we know that you
w e r e w i t h Mr N a r a y a n ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th e y i n tr o d u c e d t h e ms e lv e s t o u s b u t
I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w C h a ir b u t t h e y i n tr o d u c e d t h e m s e lv e s t o u s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t w o u ld a ls o b e u s e f u l i f o n e u n d e r s t o o d
a t w h a t le v e l o f s e n i o r i ty y o u w e r e - y o u w e r e d e a li n g i n t h i s p la c e a t
t h is p o i n t in ti m e . T h a t y o u w e r e n o t t a lk in g t o s o m e b o d y w h o d i d n o t
h a v e a u t h o r it y t o e n g a g e y o u o n th e i s s u e s y o u w e r e i n te r e s t e d i n .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t th e
p e r s o n t h a t w e w e r e d e a l in g w i t h w a s t h e h e a d o f t h e o ffi c e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: As in the CEO?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A s in th e C E O a n d th a t - t h a t i s h o w
a ls o I h a d a d d r e s s e d h i m w h e n I a ls o s e n t le t t e r s to h i m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o y o u w e r e a b l e to g e t th e a t te n ti o n o f

t h e C E O o f P a r a s e v e n t h o u g h h e d i d n o t k n o w y o u . Yo u h a d n o t m e t
h i m b e fo r e o b v i o u s ly ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: No. I - I had managed to get CEO in
10

a n u m b e r o f t i m e s o n a c a l l. I f t h e y a r e w i ll in g t o ta lk t o y o u th e y w il l
t a lk t o y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d Mr N a r a y a n h a v e a n y c o n tr i b u ti o n t o

m a k e t o e n s u r i n g th a t y o u w e r e a b le t o g e t h o l d o f t h e C E O a n d g e t
c o n s u l t a ti o n o r d is c u s s io n g o in g w i t h t h e C E O ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t - t h a t h a p p e n e d

la t e r b u t f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g I h a d d o n e i t m y s e l f a n d I w a s - I w a s v e r y
f o r tu n a te th a t h e h a d a c e r ta i n le v e l . A ll - a l th o u g h h is E n g l is h w a s n o t
v e r y g o o d b u t h e w a s a b le t o ta lk E n g l is h .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

W h a t v a l u e a d d d id M r N a r a y a n b r i n g t o

w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s e t o u t fo r u s a r r a n g in g t h e m e e t i n g s , b e i n g a b l e to
t a lk t o Mr K u m a r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e - t h e la n g u a g e i s s u e w a s - w a s

v e r y k e y b e c a u s e w h e n y o u g e t t h e r e t o b e a b l e to c l a r i fy s o m e o f
these

th i n g s p r o p e r ly y o u

need some body

who understands

th e

la n g u a g e . S o h e w a s o f v e r y b ig a s s is t a n c e e v e n w h e n w e w e r e i n th e

Page 22 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
m e e ti n g . S o m e o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e m a k i n g p r e s e n ta t io n s t h e y d i d
t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n th e ir l o c a l la n g u a g e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t a b l e to
s p e a k E n g li s h .
S o h e t h e n a s s is t e d i n t r a n s la t in g f r o m t h e lo c a l l a n g u a g e t o
E n g l is h f o r m y u n d e r s t a n d in g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H o w m a n y p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e t o

you?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e y - t h e y m a d e o n e p r e s e n t a ti o n

a n d th e o t h e r p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s m a d e w h e n w e w e r e i n t o u r j u s t
10

e x p l a i n in g to u s w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is t h a t t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t y o u - y o u

b r o u g h t b a c k t o S o u t h A fr i c a ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is t h e d o c u m e n t th a t i s i n t h a t b u n d l e I

t h i n k i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 6 a t A n n e x u r e F R 1 4 . T h e r e is a d o c u m e n t
there that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t i s t h e E X H I B I T n u m b e r ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s H H 1 0 y o u r w i tn e s s b u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay and page?
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H H 1 0 , p a g e 2 - 0 - 6 C h a ir.

W e w i ll h a v e

b e t t e r c o p i e s h o p e fu ll y C h a ir b y lu n c h ti m e b u t I o n ly w a n t y o u to
c o n fir m w h e t h e r th is is o n e o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t w a s m a d e t o y o u
…
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Because you annexed it to your papers.

Page 23 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s h o p in g b y t e a b r e a k .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P o s s i b ly C h a i r ma n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 2 - 0 - 6 y o u s a i d ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 2 - 0 - 6 . I t i s r e a ll y ju s t t h e fr o n t p a g e o f a
p r e s e n t a ti o n b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h i s is w h y I j u s t w a n te d t o e s t a b l is h
w h e t h e r t h is i s o n e o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n s . H a d y o u ta k e n a p r e s e n ta t io n
10

across to Paras?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: No we did not. We - we were in a fact
fi n d i n g m i s s i o n .

S o w e - w e w e n t to e x p o s e o u r s e l v e s t o w h a t t h e y

had.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e n in r e l a ti o n t o y o u r f a c t fi n d i n g

m is s i o n y o u s a y t h e y t o o k y o u t h r o u g h t h e c o m p a n y ’s b o o k s e t c e t e r a . I
p r e s u m e t h e s e w e r e w r i t t e n in t h e E n g lis h la n g u a g e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s i t w a s C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d y o u w e r e a b le t o s it d o w n a n d g o

t h r o u g h t h e ir s tr u c t u r e w h e th e r t h e y a r e l i q u i d e t c e t e r a ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: How much time did you spend doing that?
T h a t w o u l d n o r m a ll y b e y o u r d u e d i li g e n c e e x e r c is e j u s t t o m a k e s u r e
t h e s e p e o p l e a c tu a lly a r e w h o t h e y s a y t h e y a r e a s y o u - a s y o u h a v e
in d i c a t e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e - w e s t a r te d t h e r e C h a ir in t h e

Page 24 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
m o r n in g a n d t h e y - t h e y t o o k u s t h r o u g h th e c o m p a n y, t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
T h e n i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h a t w e - w e w e n t o n s i t e . M y - m y b i g i n te r e s t
w a s t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h e y o p e r a t e i f t h e y a r e th e r e a n d a ls o t o g o t o
t h e s it e s o t h a t I h a v e e x p o s u r e t o th e s i t e w h e r e t h e y a r e d o in g t h e
p r o c e s s in g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w y o u a ls o - th e w a y y o u p u t i t i n y o u r
a ffi d a v i t - t h i s i s t h e 2 0 1 8 a ff id a v i t w h ic h i s i n H H 1 0 a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . Yo u
s a y t h a t y o u b r o u g h t b a c k y o u r p r e s e n ta t i o n . I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d
w h a t y o u m e a n b y t h a t . S o y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 . I t is th e
10

la s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 0 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o r r y C h a ir. 2 - 3 - 8 ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s b u t th a t o f c o u r s e is t h e c o p y t h a t is
n o t v e r y c l e a r.

I f y o u w a n t t o l o o k a t a c le a r c o p y s i m p ly g o t o

p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f th a t p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o w. Th a t i s n o t i n E X H I B I T H H 1 0 . Is it ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n s o y o u r c l e a r c o p y w a s p u t - I

w o u ld l ik e t o t h i n k a t t h e - r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f y o u r fi le . I t is t h e o n l y
20

a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n p u t i n t o y o u r H H 1 0 b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s a c l e a r c o p y o f w h a t I a m r e a d in g . I
b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M y e r r o r.

Page 25 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h is i s a c tu a l ly 2 0 1 7 a ffi d a v i t th a t I a m

lo o k in g a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e n e w o n e ? T h e c l e a r c o p y ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e a ff id a v i t w h ic h h a s a c l e a r c o p y ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is a c l e a r c o p y C h a i r m a n b u t i t h a s

a l w a y s b e e n i n y o u r f il e . S o t h e r e a r e th r e e a ff id a v i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is was the last one - the 2017.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k I h a v e g o t it . 2 - 3 - 8 y o u s a i d - p a g e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I h a v e g o t i t, ja .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And it is paragraph 10.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M y e r r o r w a s in c a l li n g i t th e 2 0 1 8 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A ff i d a v i t C h a i r ma n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t is t h e 2 0 1 7 o n e . S o t h a t l a s t s e n te n c e
is r a t h e r a m b ig u o u s .

W h e n I r e a d i t I t h o u g h t th a t y o u h a d t a k e n a

p r e s e n t a ti o n to I n d i a a n d y o u w e r e n o w b r i n g i n g b a c k t o S o u t h A fr ic a
your presentation.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o r r y C h a ir. W h a t - w h a t p a r a g r a p h ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The last sentence of paragraph 10. I am

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s i m p l y c o n fi r m in g Mr T h a b e t h e t h a t t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u b r o u g h t b a c k
to South Africa …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W a s a p r e s e n t a t i o n y o u r e c e iv e d i n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Fr o m th e r e , y e s C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: India.
CHAIRPERSON: So …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s n o t o n e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is y o u r c o p y o f th e p r e s e n ta t io n th e y g a v e y o u ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: They gave me.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d y o u h a v e i d e n t i fi e d t h e d o c u m e n t w e
w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a f e w m i n u te s a g o a s t h e p a r ti c u l a r p r e s e n ta t io n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n y o u r r e t u r n t o S o u th A fr ic a - s o a g a in
w e k n o w t h a t y o u - y o u h a d d i s c u s s io n s w i t h M r K u m a r. Yo u s a y t h a t

20

y o u p r e p a r e d a r e p o r t w i th r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o n th e d a ir y p r o j e c t
concept. Did you do that?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. I d i d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

And you prepared it for purposes of

lo d g i n g t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w it h t h e M E C ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir - C h a ir o n m y r e t u r n I t h e n d id

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
a s u b m is s i o n t o t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il s o t h a t t h e y c a n o ff ic i a lly a g r e e
t h a t w e - w e in t e r a c t w i t h - w i t h th e c o m p a n y.

Al s o t o p r e s e n t m y

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o th e m i n t e r m s o f in i ti a ti n g t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u - y o u d i d n o f u r t h e r w o r k o n t h is

m a t t e r M r T h a b e th e o t h e r t h a n p r e p a r e t h i s r e c o m m e n d a t i o n ? Yo u d i d
not sit down and - and assimilate and understand and check a few more
t h i n g s . Yo u s i m p ly p r e p a r e d a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o n t h e s t r e n g th o f w h a t
y o u h a d h e a r d a n d s e e n a t P a r a s in I n d ia ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h e q u e s ti o n .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w i ll r e p e a t i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k th e q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r a p a r t f r o m t h e

o b s e r v a t i o n s y o u h a d m a d e w h e n y o u w e n t t o v is i t P a r a s a n d a p a r t
fr o m w h a t y o u h a d b e e n t o l d t h e r e a b o u t t h e ir o p e r a t i o n .

There was

a n y f u r th e r w o r k y o u d id b e f o r e - w h e n y o u a r r iv e d b a c k b e f o r e y o u
p r e p a r e d a s u b m is s io n fo r Ex c o .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. T h e r e - t h e r e w a s n o t a n y
f u r th e r w o r k b e c a u s e a n y f u r th e r w o r k t h a t I w o u ld d o w o u l d n o t h a v e
b e e n g iv e n a b l e s s i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e n c e t h e f ir s t t h in g to d o w a s to

request that.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Then you can proceed with any other
work …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.1

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : If y o u a r e g iv e n t h e a p p r o v a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ffic e r h a d y o u t a k e n a
d e c is i o n th a t P a r a s w a s t h e o n ly c o m p a n y th a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o d o
b u s i n e s s w i t h . I a m n o t t a l k i n g a b o u t a b l e s s in g fr o m a n y w h e r e e ls e . I
a m a s k i n g y o u a s t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o I a m in t e r r o g a ti n g w h y y o u a s t h e

a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r d id n o t d o fu r t h e r w o r k a ft e r th is p r e li m i n a r y v i s i t t o
10

I n d ia t o f i n d o u t if y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e o th e r o p ti o n s w i t h i n S o u t h A fr ic a
o r o u ts id e o f S o u t h A f r i c a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
before I went to India.

C h a ir - C h a ir t h a t w o r k w a s d o n e

Yo u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h a t w e h a d a lr e a d y d o n e

t h a t a s s e s s m e n t a n d w e h a d a lr e a d y o n - b a s e d o n t h a t a s s e s s m e n t
w a s t o g o a n d v is i t a n d c o n f ir m . In my r e t u r n th a t w a s c o n fi r m e d . S o
t h e r e w o u l d n o t b e a n y r e a s o n to d o a n o t h e r a s s e s s m e n t a f t e r y o u h a v e
a lr e a d y d o n e t h e a s s e s s m e n t a n d y o u h a v e p ic k e d w h a t y o u th o u g h t
w o u ld b e fe a s i b l e a n d y o u h a v e v is i te d a n d y o u h a v e c o n f ir m e d w h a t
you had checked before.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t M r Th a b e t h e t h a t
h a v i n g v is i t e d th e f a c il it y y o u w o u l d w a n t t o j u s t b y w a y o f e x a m p le
d e c i d e o n w h e th e r y o u s til l w a n t e d to h a v e t h r e e d a ir y p r o j e c ts , t h r e e
t h a t w e r e s i m il a r, s li g h t d i ff e r e n t o n e s b e c a u s e y o u h a d n o w h a d a n
e x p o s u r e to a c o m p a n y t h a t d i d t h i n g s i n a m a n n e r - y o u s a y - y o u
a p p r o v e d o f a n d t h is is w h y I a s k t h e q u e s ti o n . D id y o u n o t a p p ly y o u r

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
m i n d a fr e s h ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h a t w o u l d n o t h a v e a s s i s te d

m e t o d o b e f o r e I h a v e t h e b le s s i n g . T h a t e x e r c is e w a s a c tu a l ly d o n e
a ft e r I r e c e i v e d t h e a p p r o v a l . H e n c e a s u b m is s io n w a s a ls o m a d e t o t o Tr e a s u r y t o r e a s s e s s t h e b u d g e t b e c a u s e I h a d o r i g i n a l ly b e e n
a l lo c a t e d a b u d g e t f o r th r e e p r o je c t s . N o w I h a v e a n a p p r o v a l to d o a
b i g g e r p r o j e c t o f w h ic h t h e n I c a n m a k e a d e c is i o n to s a y w h ic h o n e d o
I s t a r t w it h .
S o t h a t w a s a c t u a l ly d o n e a f t e r t h e a p p r o v a l w a s g r a n t e d b y
10

t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h y w a s it n e c e s s a r y to g o t h e E x e c u t iv e
C o u n c il w i t h t h is p r o p o s a l ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir it is - i t is n o t o n ly t h is

proposal.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o , n o . W h y w a s i t n e c e s s a r y t o g o t o th e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l o n th is p r o p o s a l ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y - m a y b e l e t m e p u t t h e q u e s t i o n d i ff e r e n t ly.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y w a s i t n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o g e t E x c o a p p r o v a l fo r
20

t h is p r o p o s a l w h e t h e r y o u g o t i t b y g o i n g t o c o u n c il o r n o t b u t w h y w a s
c o u n c i l - Ex c o a p p r o v a l n e c e s s a r y f o r t h is p r o p o s a l ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir - C h a ir le t m e s t a r t b y

s a y in g a l l p r o je c t s g e ts a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e n d i d y o u m a k e t h a t s u b m is s i o n t o

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
Exco - the date?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I n e e d a l s o t o g o i n t o m y

d o c u m e n t s o th a t I c a n c h e c k …
CHAIRPERSON: The date?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The date …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O f - o f th e s u b m i s s i o n C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n w i ll y o u a ll o w m e t o b e o f

a s s is t a n c e b y r e p h r a s i n g t h e q u e s ti o n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J u s t t o c u t i t s h o r tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is th a t t h e p r o p o s a l y o u t o o k t o Ex c o

w h e n Ex c o in r e t u r n t h e n g a v e y o u t h e r e s o l u ti o n o f 1 3 J u n e ? N o . Th e
r e s o l u ti o n o f 1 3 J u n e is - i s a - i n a ll y o u r c o u r t p a p e r s . I c a n f in d i t . I
a m ju s t tr y i n g t o h e l p y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e m e m b e r t h e …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To r e m e m b e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te d a t e .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The date.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e - m a y b e r e m in d h i m w h a t t h e r e s o l u ti o n o f

13 June says.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th e r e s o l u ti o n o f 1 3 J u n e s a y s th a t y o u

c a n i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o j e c t . I t a ls o s a y s t h a t m o r e m o n e y m u s t b e f o u n d
t o s u p p o r t th e p r o j e c t .

T h a t i s t h e r e s o lu ti o n t h a t - t h a t c a m e f r o m

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
Exco on 13 June 2012.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h a t h e l p to y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n y o u m ig h t h a v e
m a d e t h e p r e s e n ta t io n to E x c o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

I - I remember that one

but there were - there were other presentations that I did before that
one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o o n a ft e r I r e t u r n e d fr o m I n d ia …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n I m a d e a p r e s e n ta t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d t h e n t h e o n e th a t is i n - s h e is

r e fe r r i n g t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W a s t h e o n e w h e r e I - I w a s a lr e a d y

in d i c a t in g th a t t h is p r o je c t t h a t I a m d o i n g d o e s n o t h a v e e n o u g h
m o n e y. I r e q u e s t t h a t I b e a s s is t e d o t h e r w is e i f I w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o g e t
a d d it i o n a l f u n d in g i t m a y n o t b e p o s s i b l e f o r m e to d o i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n I h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t h e r e i f i t

m a k e s s e n s e . J u s t a t l e a s t to g i v e y o u th e p a g e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A p a g e 3 - 2 - 3 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : R e f e r e n c e B u n d le A .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Reference Bundle A page 3-2-3 and I am I a m ju s t a s k i n g y o u t o c o n fir m t h a t t h i s i s n o t t h e p r o d u c t o f y o u r
r e p o r t in g b a c k to E x c o .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h is i s n o t t h e f ir s t
p r e s e n t a ti o n b u t i t is o n e o f t h e p r e s e n ta t i o n s I h a v e m a d e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

So

when

Exco

approved

your

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n d i d th e y t a k e a r e s o lu t io n o f a n y k in d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u ld - a n d y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e n ?
10

I h a v e n o t s e e n t h a t r e s o lu t io n i n a n y o f y o u r c o u r t p a p e r s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
r e s o l u ti o n s .

I - I h a d C h a ir a n u m b e r o f t h e s e

T h i s w a s n o t t h e o n ly r e s o l u ti o n th a t w a s ta k e n .

There

w a s a n u m b e r o f t h e m i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n . T h e r e c o u l d b e a b o u t th r e e
or four of them. I am not certain now but there was a number of them
in - i n t h e d o c u m e n ts o f th e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t E x c o h a d r e s o lv e d
b e c a u s e t h i s p r o j e c t h a d b e e n d is c u s s e d q u i t e a n u m b e r o f t i m e s a n d a
n u m b e r o f r e s o l u ti o n s w e r e ta k e n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Let us go past the resolutions and take

y o u r w o r d fo r i t t h a t y o u d i d m a k e t h e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d th a t t h e
20

le g i s l a tu r e r e s o lv e d o r r a th e r - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n - E x c o r e s o lv e d th a t
y o u c o u ld g o a h e a d . T h a t i s w h a t t h e y r e s o lv e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u th e n i n v it e d Mr K u m a r t o v is it S o u t h

A fr ic a ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe before we go there Ms Gcabashe.

Let us - I

ju s t w a n t to g o b a c k - n o le a v e i t h e r e fo r n o w - t o y o u r v i s i t to P a r a s .
Yo u s a id y e s te r d a y t h a t t h e k e y t h i n g th a t r e a l ly a tt r a c t e d y o u to P a r a s
w a s t h e ir c o ll e c t io n o f m i lk fr o m s m a ll f a r m e r s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w h e n y o u w e r e i n I n d ia w h a t d id y o u f in d w a s

s p e c i a l t h a t th e y w e r e d o i n g a b o u t c o ll e c t io n o f m ilk fr o m s m a ll fr y e r f a r m e r s th a t r e a l ly y o u n e e d e d t o - to k n o w t h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g ? Yo u
s e e w h e n s a y t h e c o l le c ti o n o f m i lk fr o m f a r m e r s I d o n o t s e e w h a t is
10

s p e c i a l a b o u t t h a t b u t m a y b e th a t is b e c a u s e I a m n o t a n a g r ic u l t u r is t .
I f y o u d o r e s e a r c h a n d f in d t h a t a c e r t a i n c o m p a n y c o ll e c ts
m il k fr o m s m a l l f a r m e r s a n d y o u a r e i n th e Fr e e S t a te . I w o u ld i m a g i n e
t h a t a l l y o u - y o u n e e d is o h th a t m i g h t b e a g o o d id e a . S o le t u s l o o k
a t h o w w e c o u ld d o th a t h e r e i f i t w o u ld b e v i a b l e to d o i t .

I am not

s u r e th a t t h a t is s o m e t h i n g r e a lly t h a t s h o u ld b e k e y t o a n y - a n y t h i n g .
A r e y o u a b le t o h e l p m e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t?

I mean you have

s m a ll f a r m e r s i n Th e m b a l i h l e o r T h e m b a li h le o r w h e r e v e r a n d y o u w o u l d
h a v e t h e d a ir y - t h e d a ir y f a r m s o m e w h e r e . I f y o u d e c id e th a t i t w o u l d
b e v i a b l e t h a t t h e f a r m s h o u l d c o l le c t m i lk fr o m fa r m e r s e i t h e r y o u a r e
20

g o i n g to s e n d a tr u c k o r a c a r o r w h a t e v e r t o g o a n d c o ll e c t - c o l l e c t i t
o r y o u w i ll s a y t o t h e f a r m e r s y o u b r i n g th e - y o u r m i lk t o th e f a r m s . S o
I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d w h y th a t w o u l d r e a l ly b e k e y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

T h a n k - th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Th e

m o d e l t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n u s i n g i t is - i t i s n o t o n ly c o ll e c t in g t h e m i lk
b u t th e s u p p o r t s y s t e m s a ls o t h a t g o e s t o t h e f a r m e r s b e c a u s e t h e y

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
w o u ld r e c o m m e n d t o t h e fa r m e r s t h e - t h e q u a l i ty o f t h e m ilk t o b e a t a
c e r t a i n l e v e l f o r h i g h e r b u t t e r f a t c o n t e n t . T h i s is h o w y o u n e e d t o fe e d
t h e m . T h is i s h o w y o u n e e d to m a n a g e .
S o t h e y a r e o v e r a n d a b o v e c o l le c t i n g t h e m e a t . T h e y h a v e
extended the support system to the farm .

Th e y w il l h a v e t h e ir o w n

v e t e r i n a r i a n s g o in g th e r e a s s is ti n g t h e m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. I h a v e a l s o u n d e r s to o d y o u t o b e
s a y in g - t o b e ta lk i n g a b o u t c o ll e c ti n g th e m il k …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I ju s t h e a r d n o w a s i f y o u a r e s a y in g m e a t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o . My a p o lo g i e s s ir. I t is m ilk .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M ilk ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M ilk .
CHAIRPERSON: Meat?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M ilk .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m il k ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is m il k C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. Let us …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. The - the support system - what

20

w a s v e r y i n te r e s t in g i s t h e s u p p o r t s y s te m a l s o .
ju s t d e liv e r m il k .

S o t h a t th e y d o n o t

I t is q u a l i ty m i lk t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g to b e g e t ti n g

fr o m t h e m . S o y o u - y o u - t h e y a ls o a s s is t th e m b e c a u s e t h e - t h e d a ir y
c a t tl e ( i n d i s t i n c t) th e y w il l t h e n b e a b le to a s s i s t t h e m i n - in t h e
b r e e d i n g o f t h is c a tt l e s o t h a t - a s s is t t h e m w i t h th e p r o c e s s o f a r ti fi c i a l
in s e m i n a t i o n s o t h a t y o u a ls o s e l e c t t h e b e s t o f th e b e s t i n t e r m s o f

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m il k p r o d u c ti o n .
S o th a t y o u r h e r d t h a t p r o d u c e s m i lk fo r y o u b e c o m e s to p
a n i m a ls . S o i t w a s n o t o n ly c o m i n g to s a y d o y o u h a v e m il k o r y o u d o
n o t h a v e m i lk b u t t o s e t u p a s y s t e m t h a t m a k e s s u r e t h a t y o u d o v e r y
w e ll a n d y o u a r e p r o d u c i n g h i g h q u a li ty m il k b e c a u s e fo r p r o c e s s in g
p u r p o s e s y o u d o n e e d t h a t m i l k a n d y o u n e e d y o u r h y g i e n e s y s te m t o
b e - t o b e v e r y h i g h b e c a u s e m ilk i n t e r m s o f h y g ie n e i f y o u d o n o t k e e p
t h o s e s ta n d a r d s o f h y g i e n e y o u r m ilk g e ts r e j e c t e d i n t e r m s o f t h e
b a c te r i a c o n t e n t. S o t h o s e a r e t h e s u p p o r t s y s t e ms t h a t w e r e a ls o , s o I
10

s a w th a t th e y w e r e v e r y g o o d , t h a t in t e r a c ti o n w i th t h e fa r m e r, n o t o n ly
g o i n g t h e r e , t h e i r o w n w o r d s w i ll t h e n g o to t h e f a r m e r s , m a k e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o t h e m h o w to i m p r o v e th e ir s y s t e m s o n t h e ir fa r m
s o th a t th e y h a v e g o o d q u a li ty m i lk .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t I s ti ll d o n o t s e e w h y y o u n e e d t o g o a n d – g o
t o I n d i a f o r t h a t , th a t s h o u l d b e k e y, b e c a u s e i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o
e s t a b li s h a p r o j e c t w h ic h w i ll r e q u ir e s o m e b o d y e l s e t o s u p p ly y o u w i t h
a c e r ta i n p r o d u c t o b v io u s ly y o u m u s t h a v e y o u r r e q u ir e m e n ts a s t o w h a t
r e q u ir e m e n t s m u s t t h e p r o d u c t m e e t , in o r d e r f o r i t t o b e a c c e p t a b l e t o
y o u , s o y o u m i g h t s a y w e l l t h e q u a l it y o f t h e m i lk i n t h e c a s e o f a d a ir y,

20

m il k t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o c o ll e c t fr o m t h e s m a l l f a r m e r s t h e s e a r e t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t s , a n d i f t h e y h a v e d i ffic u lt y i n m e e ti n g th o s e r e q u ir e m e n ts
in a p r iv a t e s e c t o r s i t u a t io n y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e a n y in t e r e s t i n h e l p i n g
t h e m , y o u s a y I w i ll o n ly d e a l w i th th o s e w h o m e e t m y r e q u ir e m e n ts ,
t h a t is h o w b u s in e s s o p e r a te s , t h o s e w h o c a n n o t m e e t m y r e q u ir e m e n t s
I w i ll n o t h a v e a n y th i n g t o d o w i th t h a t, b u t i n th is c a s e b e c a u s e y o u

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a r e g o v e r n m e n t a n d y o u w a n t t o a s s is t t h e s m a ll f a r m e r s y o u m i g h t
t h e n s a y w e ll w h a t w e w il l n e e d t o d o i s s e e h o w w e c a n a s s i s t th e
s m a ll f a r m e r s t o g iv e t h i s fa r m q u a li ty m i l k , t h a t p a r t I u n d e r s t a n d , b u t
it s e e ms t o m e t h a t a ll y o u n e e d r e a ll y i s p e o p le w h o k n o w w h a t
a d v ic e s s h o u l d b e g iv e n , w h o w o u l d k n o w w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e f o r
s m a ll f a r m e r s to p r o v i d e q u a li ty m i lk . I a m j u s t n o t s u r e t h a t I s e e th is
s p a ti a l k e y th i n g th a t I t h i n k y o u h a d i n m i n d P a r a s w o u ld b e

having

a b o u t th e c o ll e c ti o n o f m i lk a n d I a m t r y in g t o u n d e r s ta n d i t a n d p u t
m y s e l f i n y o u r p o s i ti o n .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. W h a t th e C h a ir

is e x p la i n i n g is e x a c tl y w h a t w e i n t e n d e d to d o , C h a ir I h a d i n d ic a te d
t h a t w e h a d s ta r t e d i n t h e c o u n tr y t o e x p l o r e t h a t id e a , b e c a u s e o u r
m a in id e a is t o s u p p o r t t h e s e f a r m e r s t h a t w e k n o w t h e y a r e g o in g to
m e e t th o s e s t a n d a r d s , a n d w e h a v e t o s u p p o r t t h e m , w e h a v e t o
d e v e l o p th e m a n d m a k e th e m o n e y a v a il a b l e f o r th e m t o b e a b l e to g e t
to that standard.
N o w i f w e d o in v i t a ti o n l o c a lly to s a y th is is w h a t w e w a n t t o
d o a n d y o u a r e n o t g e t t in g t h e s u p p o r t , b e c a u s e t h e s t a n d a r d o f t h e
s u p p ly o f t h e m i lk a r e t h e r e , i n t h e c o u n tr y, t h is is h o w y o u h a v e t o
20

d e li v e r th e m i lk f o r i t to b e c o n s u m e d .

I t is t h e r e a n d th e s e f a r m e r s

a r e s t r u g g l in g t o d o s o , s o w e c o m e i n a n d w e w a n t to s a y, w e w a n t t o
a s s is t th e m , c a n a n y b o d y w h o w a n t t o w o r k w i t h u s jo i n u s in d o i n g s o ,
a n d y o u d o n o t g e t t h a t l o c a l ly. T h e n y o u b e g in t o l o o k s o m e w h e r e e l s e
a n d s a y w h e r e e ls e c a n I g e t h e l p to a s s is t o u r o w n f a r m e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll p a r t o f w h a t y o u h a v e s a id m i g h t b e h e lp f u l in

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h e s e n s e t h a t I t h i n k y o u s a y i n t e r m s o f w h a t th e r e q u ir e m e n t s w o u l d
b e f o r t h e m i lk t o b e o f t h e r e le v a n t l e v e l o f q u a li ty, th a t y o u k n e w, y o u
k n e w w h a t is r e q u ir e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w h a t y o u n e e d e d is s o m e b o d y w h o w o u l d a s s i s t
in h e lp i n g th e s m a ll fa r m e r s to d o w h a t is n e c e s s a r y i n o r d e r f o r t h e i r
m il k t o b e a t t h e r i g h t l e v e l o f q u a li ty, is th a t r i g h t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , n o w is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t t h a t y o u s a y

y o u d i d a p p r o a c h v a r i o u s e n t it i e s o r o r g a n is a ti o n s o r c o m p a n i e s w i t h i n
t h e c o u n tr y t o s a y w e w o u l d l ik e t o h e l p a s t h e Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t ,
o r a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o h e l p s m a l l fa r m e r s h e r e in t h e Fr e e S t a te o r i n
Vr e d e t o d o w h a t is n e c e s s a r y in o r d e r f o r t h e m t o p r o d u c e q u a l i ty m il k .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y n o b o d y w a s in t e r e s te d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e t h e e n ti t ie s t h a t y o u a p p r o a c h e d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir w e h a v e o r g a n is e d m e e t i n g

w i t h a n u m b e r o f t h e m , i f I c a n m e n ti o n w e h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h N e s tl e ,
20

w e h a d d i s c u s s io n s w i t h P a r m a l a t , w e h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h C lo v e r a n d
if I a m n o t m is t a k e n w e h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h D a ir y B e l le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y w e r e n o t p r e p a r e d t o a s s is t i n y o u r e ffo r t s t o
e ffe c tiv e l y h e l p t h e s m a l l f a r m e r s t o p r o d u c e q u a l it y m i lk , t h e y w e r e n o t
p r e p a r e d t o b e i n v o lv e d in s u c h a p r o je c t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e y d i d n o t i n d ic a t e in t e r e s t C h a ir

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t o w o r k w i t h u s i n t h a t p r o je c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u w r i t e t o t h e m o r d id y o u s p e a k t o t h e m o r
both?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e s p o k e to t h e m C h a ir, w e i n v i te d

t h e m , C h a ir w i ll r e m e m b e r w e h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t w e d i d a l o t o f
c o n s u l t a ti o n b e f o r e o n t h e s e p r o je c t s a n d t o th e le g i s l a tu r e , t o a l o t o f
o th e r p e o p l e , i n v it i n g a n d c a lli n g th e m t o p a r ti c i p a t e a n d w o r k w i th u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t t h a t – a n d a r o u n d w h e n w a s th a t i n r e l a ti o n t o
y o u r tr i p to I n d i a , w a s i t b e f o r e o r a f te r, I g u e s s i t w a s b e f o r e .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s b e fo r e C h a ir.

Ar e y o u a b le to g iv e s o m e e s t i m a te , i t m u s t h a v e

b e e n 2 0 11 I g u e s s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t h i n k – it w a s 2 0 11 C h a ir, th e

p r o c e s s I th i n k w e d i d f o r t w o m o n t h s c o n s u l ta t io n , I t h in k i t e n d e d
s o m e w h e r e m i d D e c e m b e r, w h e n w e h a d s t a r te d i n O c t o b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
reasons,

for

not

A n d w h a t r e a s o n s d i d t h e y g iv e , i f th e y g a v e a n y
being

prepared

to

partner

with

th e

P r o v i n c ia l

G o v e r n m e n t t o a s s i s t s m a l l fa r m e r s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

C h a ir w h a t w e h a d b e e n d o in g w a s i n

k in d i n v it a ti o n t o t h e m , t o jo in u s , b e c a u s e w e h a d a lr e a d y r e a li s e d t h a t
s o m e o f t h e m w e r e c o l le c ti n g m i lk i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d if I a m n o t
m is t a k e n t h e r e w e r e s p e c i fic f a r m e r s th a t t h e y h a d s ig n e d c o n tr a c t w i t h
a n d v e r y fe w o f th e m w e r e s m a l l f a r m e r s , a n d th e f e w t h a t I h a d
m e n ti o n e d w h ic h w e r e i n Q w a - Q w a w h i c h w e r e a l s o i n th e o t h e r p l a c e
is i n t h e H a r r i s m it h a r e a , t h e y h a d s i g n e d c o n tr a c ts , w e h a d a s s is t e d

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t h o s e s m a ll f a r m e r s t o g e t t o a c e r t a i n l e v e l o n t h e ir f a r m s o f t h e ir
s m a ll d ia r i e s , b u t t h o s e f a r m e r s w e r e c o m p la i n i n g t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t
m a k i n g m o n e y b e c a u s e o f th e tr a n s p o r t i s s u e , s o t h e ir m a i n i n t e r e s t
w a s t o c o ll e c t t h e m i lk , t h a t is w h a t w e p i c k e d u p a n d th e d e v e l o p m e n t
p a r t o f i t b e c a m e a p r o b le m , b e c a u s e w e d id n o t w a n t o n l y t h e m t o
c o l l e c t th e m il k b u t a ls o to p a r ti c i p a t e i n d e v e l o p i n g t h e s e s m a l l
farmers.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w o n e o f th e th i n g s y o u s a i d y o u f o u n d P a r a s d i d

w a s t o s e n d t h e ir o w n v e t to t h e s m a l l f a r m e r s in I n d ia , t h e y w o u l d s e n d
10

t h e ir o w n v e t.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , t h e y h a d a t e c h n ic a l t e a m w h ic h

in c l u d e d v e ts , t h e r e a r e t h o s e t h a t w il l a ls o a s s is t th e m w i th t h e ir
g r a z i n g p a s t u r e s , s o th e y h a d a t e a m t h a t w i ll t h e n v is i t t h e m a n d
a s s is t th e m w it h th e t e c h n ic a l k n o w l e d g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is ju s t d i ffic u lt f o r m e t o u n d e r s ta n d th a t y o u w o u l d
n o t b e a b l e t o g e t p e o p l e t o a s s is t w i t h th i s k i n d o f th i n g w h e n s o m a n y
p e o p l e a c c e p t t h a t th e r e is a n e e d f o r t r a n s f o r m a t io n in v a r i o u s s e c to r s
a n d t h e r e is a n e e d to c o n tr i b u t e a n d s o o n , t h a t is p a r t o f my d i ffi c u l ty
b u t y o u r e v i d e n c e is y o u tr i e d , n o b o d y s h o w e d i n t e r e s t?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , C h a ir w e h a v e tr i e d n o t o n ly i n

t h e d a ir y i n d u s t r y b u t a l s o i n o t h e r a s p e c t s o f a g r ic u lt u r e , w e d id f in d it
v e r y d i ffi c u l t , h e n c e in d e v e lo p in g t h e s e f a r m e r s a t c e r ta in s t a g e y o u
c a n h e l p t h e m t o p r o d u c e b u t th e y m a y n o t h a v e a m a r k e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d i d y o u t e l l t h e m t h a t th e y o u k n o w t h e r e w o u l d

b e m o n e y f o r t h e m if t h e y c a m e o n b o a r d , t h e y w il l g e t m o n e y a s w e l l?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e d id C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y w e r e n o t i n te r e s t e d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
C h a ir.

Th e y d i d n o t i n d ic a t e a n y i n t e r e s t

L ik e I s a y C h a ir n o t o n ly in t h e d a ir y a ls o g o v e r n m e n t h a s

m o n e y t o a s s is t s m a l lh o ld e r fa r m e r s , b u t y o u s tr u g g l e w it h y o u r m o n e y,
y o u g iv e t h e m t h e la n d . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y I h a v e g o t m o n e y, I w il l g iv e y o u m o n e y, I a m
n o t a s k i n g y o u t o d o t h i s f o r fr e e , t h e y s ti ll a r e n o t i n t e r e s t e d ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

T h a t i s t h e p r o b l e m , y o u b u y, w e

h a v e b e e n a s s is t in g f a r m e r s w i t h f a r m s , w e h a v e th e m o n e y to a s s is t
t h e m t o d e v e l o p h e n c e t h e l a n d t h a t y o u g iv e t o t h e f a r m e r s th e
m a jo r i ty a r e i n w a s t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t i s j u s t in t e r e s ti n g y o u k n o w s o m e b o d y in S o u t h
A fr ic a is in b u s i n e s s , y o u s a y I w a n t to d o b u s i n e s s w i th y o u , y o u w i ll
g e t m o n e y f r o m m e , I a m n o t a s k i n g y o u t o d o t h is f o r f r e e , t h e y a r e n o t
in t e r e s te d , b u t s o m e b o d y i n I n d i a is in t e r e s t e d . C a n y o u s e e t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , C h a i r I m u s t a ls o m e n t i o n w e h a d

g o o d e x a m p le s o f c o o p e r a ti o n b e t w e e n b u t t h e r e w e r e p o c k e ts o f th e m ,
w h e r e y o u g e t a . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e c o u n t r y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n th e c o u n tr y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

There are areas where you get a

w h i te c o m m e r c i a l f a r m e r w i th t h e k n o w l e d g e a s s i s t i n g t h e n e i g h b o u r in g
b l a c k f a r m e r s a n d w e h a d b e e n s a y i n g i f w e h a d is s u e s l ik e t h a t w e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
w o u ld th e n s u p p o r t fi n a n c i a l ly s o th a t t h o s e f a r m e r s d e v e l o p , s o y o u
h a v e p o c k e ts o f t h e s e w h e r e y o u g e t th a t k in d o f s u p p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d w e a r e w il li n g t o m a k e m o n e y - I

a m n o lo n g e r . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] w e w e r e w il li n g t o m a k e m o n e y a v a il a b l e t o
t h o s e s y s t e ms .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n c a n I j u s t m a k e o n e s m a ll

a d d it i o n t o t h e q u e s ti o n s y o u h a v e b e e n a s k in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Th a b e t h e a l l th e t h i n g s y o u d e s c r ib e

y o u s a y t o o k p l a c e b e t w e e n A u g u s t 2 0 11 w h e n y o u a r r i v e d , A u g u s t 2 0 11
a n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 , a ll t h e s e a s s e s s m e n ts o f w h a t p e o p l e c o u l d d o ,
c o u l d n o t d o , w h a t th e y w e r e c o m p la in i n g a b o u t , w h a t t h e y w e r e n o t
c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t , t o o k p l a c e b e t w e e n A u g u s t a n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a ir I d id m e n ti o n y e s te r d a y th a t

s o m e o f th e s t u d i e s h a d b e e n d o n e b e f o r e I a r r i v e d , t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I t h i n k y o u d id m a k e t h a t p o in t .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

A n d y o u w i ll b e a b le t o a s s is t u s g e t

s o m e p r o o f o f w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I c a n – j a I c a n .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON: I guess if you are given access?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir th e D e p a r t m e n t h a s b e e n v e r y

Page 42 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
h e l p f u l, s o I t h i n k i f M r T h a b e th e j u s t g iv e s u s a n in d i c a t io n o f w h e r e
w e w ill f in d th e d o c u m e n ts h e is r e f e r r i n g t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m s u r e D r M a s it e n g , w h o i s t h e c u r r e n t

A c ti n g H e a d , w i ll a s s is t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n a p p r e c ia t e , o k a y y e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir I m u s t ju s t c o r r e c t t h e o t h e r

p l a c e w a s n o t H a r r is m i t h , it w a s Fi c k s b u r g .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h t h e o n e y o u w e r e s tr u g g li n g t o r e m e m b e r a n d

m e n ti o n e d H a r r is m i t h ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
Department to

give

you

Ye s , n o w if y o u c a n r e q u e s t t h e

th e s t u d y

that was

done

between

the

D e p a r t m e n t a n d G e r m a n y o n th e F ic k s b u r g p r o p o s a l t h e y w i ll b e a b l e t o
g iv e y o u a v e r y c o m p r e h e n s iv e s t u d y t h a t w a s d o n e , w h ic h t h e
Department has.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a r e g o i n g t o a s k t h e m t o g iv e a l l o f

them to us.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t h e l p i f y o u a r e a b l e to m e n ti o n s o m e b o d y

w h o is s t il l i n th e D e p a r t m e n t th a t w o u ld k n o w t h e d o c u m e n t th a t m i g h t
20

help.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e c u r r e n t A c t i n g H O D D r M a s i t e n g .

CHAIRPERSON: Oh he knows about it?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e k n o w s a b o u t i t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 43 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w e w i ll t a k e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a m li m i ti n g m y i n te r a c t i o n C h a ir

w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s s u s p e n d e d I w a s g iv e n s tr o n g
c o n d i ti o n s n o t to t o t a lk to t h e D e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , th a t w a s o f c o u r s e w h e n y o u w e r e s t il l i n
t h e e m p l o y o f th e D e p a r t m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

No, when I was suspended.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e ll w h e n y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d y o u w e r e s t il l in
t h e e m p l o y o f th e D e p a r t m e n t is n ’ t i t ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u

d id n ’ t

Ye s .
cease

to

be

D e p a r t m e n t w h e n y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d is n ’ t i t ?

an

employee

of

the

Yo u o n l y c e a s e d t o b e

a n e m p lo y w h e n y o u r c o n t r a c t e x p i r e d .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , y e s o k a y a lr i g h t b u t I th in k t h e b o tt o m li n e is

t h a t y o u a r e p r e p a r e d t o d o w h a te v e r y o u m a y b e p e r m it t e d t o d o to
a s s is t to o b t a in t h e in f o r m a t io n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I w ill d o s o C h a ir.

Ye s , o k a y w e w ill t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e

w i ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty f iv e t o tw e lv e .
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u , w e m a y p r o c e e d .

Page 44 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . N o w M r Th a b e t h e

b e f o r e I a c t u a ll y ti d y u p t h e v is i t o f M r K u m a r c a n I j u s t g e t a b i t o f
c o n te x t t o y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p o r th e r e a s o n th a t y o u – y o u a p p r o a c h e d
P a r a s . I a m l o o k in g p a g e 2 3 7 o f H H 1 0 w h ic h I y o u r w i t n e s s b u n d l e . It
is t h e 2 0 1 7 a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u d e p o s e d t o a n d I a m lo o k in g a t p a r a g r a p h
8 . S o it is p a g e 2 3 7 H H 1 0 a n d p a r a g r a p h 8 t h e r e o f . A r e y o u t h e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e r e y o u s p e a k o f y o u r a n a l y s i s o f In d i a
b e i n g id e n ti f ie d a s t h e h i g h e s t m il k p r o d u c e r a n d y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e r e
10

b e i n g a n e x is ti n g b i la t e r a l a g r e e m e n t o n a g r ic u l t u r e b e t w e e n S o u t h
A fr ic a a n d In d i a . T h e n y o u s a y s e e a t ta c h m e n t M P T 3 . N o w I k n o w w e
do not have those annexures but can you just elaborate on what you
w e r e r e f e r r i n g to h e r e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a i r t h e – le t m e s ta r t w it h t h e

is s u e o f t h e e x is t in g b il a t e r a l a g r e e m e n t .

T h is w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t

a g r e e m e n ts w e r e s i g n e d b e t w e e n t h e t w o d e p a r t m e n ts .

It covered a

w h o le r a n g e o f i s s u e s b u t it a ls o i n d ic a t e d th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p s b e t w e e n
t h e tw o d e p a r t m e n t s c a n b e c r e a te d r e l a ti n g t o is s u e s o f a g r i c u l tu r e
w h ic h w e r e c o v e r e d i n t h a t a g r e e m e n t .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I p o i n t y o u t o a n M O U th a t is p a r t o f
t h e C o u r t P a p e r s in fa c t t h e c o p y I a m h o l d i n g h e r e c a n b e f o u n d i n
C o u r t R e c o r d s C h a ir m a n . T h e C o u r t R e c o r d s fi le .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B – Court Records B and it is at page 659.
W h a t w e tr ie d t o d o h e r e C h a i r m a n w a s s t a y w i t h th e s a m e n u m b e r in g

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s o w h a te v e r is w r i t te n i n i n t h e b la c k k h o k i p e n w i ll b e s a m e n u m b e r
t h a t w e a s t h e c o m m i s s io n h a v e u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e j u s t tr ie d t o – i n s te a d o f c h a n g i n g t h e
n u m b e r s w e s t a y e d w it h th e ir i n d e x t o m a k e o u r l iv e s e a s i e r.
CHAIRPERSON: 659 you said?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

6 5 9 C h a i r ma n .

Have you got it Mr

T h a b e th e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t I h a v e i t C h a ir.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is t h is t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u a r e

r e fe r r i n g t o w h ic h w a s s i g n e d o n th e 4 J u n e 2 0 1 0 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is t h i s – i s t h is t h e c o r r e c t d o c u m e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t d o c u m e n t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e r e f e r r in g to .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w e c a n s a f e ly a s s u m e t h a t M P T 3 i s t h e
d o c u m e n t t h a t i s o n p a g e 6 5 9 o f th e C o u r t R e c o r d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

ADV

LEAH

“Memorandum

GCABASHE
of

SC:

u n d e r s t a n d in g

Now

the

between

th e

heading

here

government

reads
of

the

R e p u b l ic o f I n d ia a n d t h e g o v e r n m e n t o f t h e R e p u b lic o f S o u t h A fr i c a o n
a g r ic u lt u r a l c o o p e r a t io n . ” C o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h y d o y o u c a ll i t a n a g r e e m e n t – a

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
b i la t e r a l a g r e e m e n t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h i s m i g h t h a v e b e e n m a y b e t h e
c o r r e c t in g q u o ti n g b u t t h is i s t h e d o c u m e n t w e a r e r e f e r r i n g t o a s
a tt a c h e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e is s u e w i th t h a t M s G c a b a s h e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is n o t a n a g r e e m e n t C h a ir t h a t is t h e

fir s t t h i n g a b o u t i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Uh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t is n o t a n a g r e e m e n t i t is a m e m o r a n d u m
10

o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h e – o h t h e e m p h a s is w a s o n a g r e e m e n t r a t h e r

t h a n o n b i la t e r a l .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e l l y e s b e c a u s e I a m a s s u m in g t h a t t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t w a s b e i n g c a r v e d w i th P a r a s w a s b a s e d i n p a r t o n
w h a t M r Th a b e t h e u n d e r s to o d t h is d o c u m e n t e n c o u r a g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o m y – I th o u g h t t h a t w h e n y o u w e r e a s k i n g
h i m w h y h e w a s c a l li n g i t b il a te r a l a g r e e m e n t t h e e m p h a s is w a s
b i la t e r a l b u t th a t is n o t w h a t i t w a s .

It was about agreement or

memorandum.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w i t is i m p o r ta n t M r T h a b e th e t o c la r i fy
t h is b e c a u s e t h i s d o c u m e n t h a s b e e n r e l ie d o n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f
t h e s e p a p e r s a s a d o c u m e n t t h a t e n c o u r a g e s S o u th A fr ic a in c l u d i n g
o r g a n s o f s ta t e l ik e th e Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t t o

Page 47 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
e n g a g e th e G o v e r n m e n t o f I n d i a o r c o m p a n i e s i n In d i a fo r v a r i o u s
p u r p o s e s . B u t w h a t i t a c t u a l ly s a y s is fi r s t y o u w ill f i n d t h e p u r p o s e I
h a v e n o d i ffic u l t y is w i t h r a t h e r i t is to p r o m o te s c i e n t i fi c a n d
t e c h n o l o g i c a l c a p a c i ty b u i l d i n g . T h e n th e c o m p e t e n t a u th o r i ti e s i t is a
g o v e r n m e n t to g o v e r n m e n t m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S c o p e o f a p p l ic a t i o n s a y s th e c o m p e te n t
a u t h o r i ty s h a l l s u b j e c t t o th e d o m e s t ic l a w e n fo r c e i n t h e ir r e s p e c ti v e
c o u n tr i e s e n d e a v o u r t o fa c i li t a t e th e n e c e s s a r y s u p p o r t a n d fa c il i ti e s to
10

implement

joint

a g r ic u l t u r a l

development

programmes.

More

i m p o r t a n tly a r t ic le 5 s p e a k s t o a j o in t a g r i c u l t u r a l w o r k i n g g r o u p . N o w
a r ti c l e 5 . 1 a r e y o u t h e r e ? 5 .1 a r ti c l e 5 s u b 1 . T h is is i m p o r ta n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : G o t i t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t s a y s : t h e jo i n t a g r i c u l tu r a l w o r k i n g

g r o u p h e r e i n a f te r r e fe r r e d t o a s th e J AW G s h a ll b e e s t a b l is h e d t o
i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h is m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g .

Now

w h e n y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h i s d o c u m e n t in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 8 i n 2 0 1 7
w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h is d o c u m e n t h a s n o le g a l fo r c e i n t h i s c o u n tr y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

Chair if I may respond to the

q u e s t io n ?

T h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e d a ir y d o e s n o t r e l y o n t h is

document.

Th is d o c u m e n t o ffe r s p r o t e c ti o n i n c a s e i f y o u h a v e a

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h a c o u n tr y a n d y o u g e t i n to p r o b l e m s y o u a r e a b le t o
in t e r a c t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g o t a n e x i s t i n g a g r e e m e n t . S o g o v e r n m e n t
c a n a s s is t y o u t o fa c i li t a te i f y o u h a v e c h a l le n g e s .
b e i n g q u o ti n g t h i s d o c u m e n t.

Hence we then

W e h a v e n o t b e e n s a y i n g t h i s is th e

Page 48 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
d o c u m e n t th a t a ll o w s u s to t h e d o t h e p r o c e s s b u t it p r o v id e s t h e
p l a t fo r m f o r u s w h e n w e h a v e g o t p r o b l e m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

It e n a b l e s y o u n o t to b e a s k e d w h o in th e c o u n tr y

h a v e y o u e v e r s e e n d e a l i n g w i t h th a t c o u n t r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
c o u n tr y ?

H o w d id y o u c o m e a b o u t to h a v e d e a li n g s w i t h th a t

Yo u s a y w e ll i t is a c o u n tr y w it h w h ic h S o u th A f r ic a h a s a n

e s t a b li s h e d a r r a n g e m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is t h e p r e c i s e p o in t C h a ir m a n . S o u t h
A fr ic a d o e s n o t h a v e a n e s ta b l is h e d a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h I n d i a n o t i n
t e r m s o f th is d o c u m e n t . T h e r e m a y b e a n o th e r o n e b u t n o t in t e r m s o f
t h is d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: So is there no memorandum of understanding such as
t h e o n e t h a t i s r e f le c te d o n t h a t p a g e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n th e c o r r e c t in t e r p r e ta t io n o f t h is
p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t i s t h a t t h e j o in t a g r i c u l t u r a l w o r k i n g g r o u p is th e
v e h ic l e th r o u g h w h ic h th is p a r tic u la r d o c u m e n t o r t h is a g r e e m e n t r a t h e r

20

w i ll b e o p e r a t io n a l is e d . N o w
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o my q u e s ti o n is , t h a t p a g e – w h a t w a s t h e
page where that memorandum appears?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 6 5 t h e m e m o r a n d u m it s e l f C h a ir m a n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o m y q u e s ti o n is .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is o n 6 5 9 .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : M y q u e s ti o n is a r e y o u s a y i n g th a t th e r e w a s n o s u c h
m e m o r a n d u m t h i s is a f a k e t h i n g o r s o m e t h i n g – d id i t n o t e x is t , w a s i t
n o t e n t e r e d i n to b e tw e e n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d I n d i a th a t d o c u m e n t o r i s
y o u r p o in t o n t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e r e a r e t w o p o in ts C h a ir m a n . T h e l a tt e r
b u t m o r e i m p o r ta n tl y t h e m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n in th e a ff id a v i t b y c a ll i n g i t
a b il a t e r a l a g r e e m e n t .
aware

goes

through

A b il a t e r a l a g r e e m e n t a n d a s M r T h a b e th e is
various

hoops

b e fo r e

you

s ig n

a

b i la t e r a l

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t w o c o u n tr ie s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y l e t u s tr y a n d g e t t h is c l e a r.

So it is

a c c e p te d t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g b e t w e e n t h e
t w o c o u n t r i e s , i s t h a t p a r t c o r r e c t?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That there was one that was signed

C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In 2010.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s b e c a u s e t h is d o c u m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W a s s ig n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In 2010.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h a t p a r t is fi n e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e p a r t w h ic h i s i n c o n t e n t io n i s w h e t h e r i t is

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a n a g r e e m e n t , is t h a t p a r t o f w h a t is in c o n t e n t io n ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e r e l ia n c e o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: On the document?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: On the document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h a t i t i s c a l l e d w h e t h e r a g r e e m e n t o r
u n d e r s t a n d in g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o i t i s i m p o r ta n t t o h a v e t h e r i g h t l a b e l
C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e i t h a s d i ff e r e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t h a s d i ff e r e n t le g a l s t a n d in g d e p e n d in g
o n w h a t it is . A m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n n e v e r b e a b il a te r a l a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o b u t t h a t is w h y I s a i d I w a n t t o f in d o u t

w h e t h e r a n o t h e r p o in t o f c o n t e n t io n is w h e t h e r it i s a n a g r e e m e n t o r
not.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Al r i g h t . A n d th e n t h e r e li a n c e w h e t h e r r e l i a n c e
o n i t w a s j u s t i fi e d ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct Chairman.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h o s e a r e t h e p o i n ts o f c o n t e n t i o n ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir m a n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y a lr i g h t .

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A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I think you – you want to add?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o I w a s s i m p ly g o in g t o s a y c o n t e x t u a ll y
it w a s a l s o i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e Mr T h a b e t h e r e p r e s e n ts th e P r o v in c i a l
Government.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e n h e is i n t e r a c t in g w i th a p r iv a te

c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d p r o v is i o n fo r t h a t is m a d e i n t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e m e m o r a n d u m ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w i ll t a k e h i m t o i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y y o u u n d e r s t a n d – y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o in t s o f
d i ff e r e n c e s o I th i n k :
1 . I t is w h e t h e r t h a t m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g is a n a g r e e m e n t
o b v i o u s l y t h a t r a is e s th e q u e s ti o n w h e n y o u s a y b i la t e r a l ly t h e
w h o le q u e s t io n s t a r ts fr o m b e i n g a n a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e i f i t is

20

n o t a n a g r e e m e n t th e n y o u d o n o t e v e n g o to w h e t h e r o r n o t i t is
a b il a t e r a l a g r e e m e n t. B u t o f c o u r s e i t i s b e t w e e n t w o c o u n tr i e s
a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e m e m o r a n d u m .
2 . T h e s e c o n d p o i n t o f c o n te n ti o n is w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s j u s ti f ic a ti o n
f o r r e li a n c e o n it t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n
ju s t i fic a ti o n o n y o u r s i d e f o r r e l y i n g – o r t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n

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r e l i a n c e o n y o u r s i d e o n i t. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u w o u ld t h e n w a n t t o
t a k e fr o m t h e r e n o w t h a t t h e r e is c la r i ty.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w o u ld C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I j u s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t th a t a r t ic l e 6 – s o
w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h a r ti c l e 5 w h i c h is t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n a r t ic l e . Ar t ic l e
6 a t G s a y s c o o p e r a t io n s h a ll c o n s is t o f b u t n o t b e l i m i te d to t h e
10

f o ll o w i n g a n d i te m G s a y s : p r o m o t io n o f c o n t a c ts b e t w e e n th e r e l e v a n t
p u b lic a n d p r i v a t e e n t e r p r is e s , o r g a n i s a t i o n s a n d o t h e r s u c h fi e l d s a s
m a y b e a g r e e d u p o n b y th e p a r t i e s . S o y o u a r e a p u b l ic e n t it y, P a r a s is
a p r i v a t e e n t i ty. H a d th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n m e c h a n is m b e e n o p e r a t io n a l
you would be relying on G, am I correct?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Can I – can I –

c a n I m a y b e m e n ti o n s o m e t h in g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

O u r r e f e r e n c e t o th is d o c u m e n t w a s

f o r p r o te c ti o n in a n e v e n t w h e r e w e h a v e a p r o b l e m th e n w e w il l r e v e r t
20

t o t h is d o c u m e n t a n d r e q u e s t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e in I n d i a t o
a s s is t b e c a u s e t h e y – t h e f o r m s o f c o o p e r a t i o n h a v e b e e n i n d i c a t e d
t h a t d o c u m e n t th a t i t c o u l d b e p u b lic t o p u b li c o r p u b li c t o p r iv a t e a n d
s o . S o t h a t i n a n e v e n t w h e r e y o u a r e n o lo n g e r t r e a t e d f a i r ly t h e n y o u
g o b a c k t o th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d s a y, w e n e e d y o u r a s s is t a n c e i n t h i s
a r e a a n d th is a g r e e m e n t w il l th e n a s s is t y o u . B e c a u s e w e a r e a lr e a d y

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– b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e a l r e a d y s e t- u p s t h a t w e r e f o r m e d , m e e ti n g s t h a t
w e r e h a p p e n i n g b e t w e e n th e t w o c o u n tr y d e p a r t m e n ts w h e r e y o u w e r e
r a i s i n g y o u r p r o b l e ms , t h e y r a is e t h e ir p r o b l e ms a n d y o u a r e a b l e t o
r e s o l v e th o s e p r o b l e m s a n d p r o c e e d .

H e n c e th e d o c u m e n t r e f e r s to

e s t a b li s h m e n ts o f t h o s e s y s t e m s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Th a b e t h e i f y o u l o o k a t a r t ic l e 1 2 i t

reads thus:
“ T h e m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g s h a l l e n t e r i n to
f o r c e o n t h e d a te o n w h ic h e a c h p a r ty h a s n o ti f ie d
10

t h e o t h e r in w r i ti n g t h r o u g h th e d ip lo m a t ic c h a n n e l o f
it s c o m p l ia n c e w i t h t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a l r e q u ir e m e n t s
n e c e s s a r y fo r th e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n t h e r e o f . T h e d a t e
o f e n tr y i n t o fo r c e s h a ll b e t h e d a t e o f th e l a s t
n o t i fic a ti o n . ”
N o w t h o s e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t a r e n e c e s s a r y h a v e n o t
b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d y o u a r e a w a r e o f th a t a r e y o u n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir m a y b e I a m n o t r e a d in g i t

c o r r e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e q u e s ti o n i s a r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t o r n o t ? L e t
20

u s s t a r t th e r e . Ye s y o u a r e a w a r e o r n o y o u a r e n o t a w a r e a n d th e n w e
c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e .

W h a t M s G c a b a s h e is s a y i n g t o y o u i s t h a t

b e f o r e t h a t m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o u ld b e o p e r a ti o n a l – c o u ld
b e p u t in t o e ff e c t c e r t a i n t h i n g s h a d t o b e p u t i n p l a c e . Th e y a r e s e t
o u t i n th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d s h e h a s r e fe r r e d y o u t o t h e m . A n d a s l o n g
a s t h o s e t h in g s h a d n o t b e e n d o n e t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g

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c o u l d n o t b e o f u s e a n d s h e is s a y i n g y o u a r e a w a r e th a t th o s e th i n g s
h a d n o t b e e n d o n e . A r e y o u n o t a w a r e th a t t h e y h a d n o t b e e n d o n e a s
yet when this happened?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m n o t a w a r e th a t th e y h a v e n o t b e e n

d o n e C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n I – I a m – t h e r e a s o n I r a i s e d

t h is a s p e c t a s o n e o f c o n c e r n i s b e c a u s e I h a v e a s s u m e d th a t t h e
P r e m i e r a n d t h e M E C w o u l d h a v e t a k e n c o m f o r t in t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y
w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e r e is a b il a te r a l a g r e e m e n t th a t s u p p o r ts w h a t t h e y
10

w a n t t o d o w i th t h e p r iv a t e c o m p a n y i n In d i a . A n d t h a t is r e a l ly w h e r e
t h e c o n c e r n l ie s . Yo u i n te r a c t e d w i t h t h e M E C – w i t h E X C O . Yo u – I
k n o w w e w i ll g e t s o m e o f t h a t d o c u m e n ta ti o n in d u e c o u r s e y o u h a v e
n o t b e e n a b le t o p r o d u c e i t a n d w h e n t h e y c o n s id e r e d t h e m a tt e r s y o u
brought before them as I understand your paragraph 8 you would have
s a i d t o t h e m d o n o t w o r r y w e a c tu a l ly h a v e a b i la t e r a l a g r e e m e n t . S o
t h e r e is th is p r o t e c ti o n w h ic h y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o n o w th a t w e w o u l d
h a v e s h o u ld t h in g s g o t e r r i b ly w r o n g .

S o y o u a r e m is le a d i n g t h e m i n

t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u a r e g iv in g th e m e s s e n ti a l ly a n d y e t th e y a r e
t h e p e o p l e w h o s e d e c is i o n s , w h o s e v i e w s y o u h a v e r e l ie d o n .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a ir I h a d a t t a c h e d th e s e

d o c u m e n ts f o r e v e r y b o d y to s e e t o a g r e e n o t t o a g r e e . S o i t w a s a t th e
d is p o s a l o f e v e r y b o d y.

I n c l u d in g t h e p e o p l e t h a t c o u l d h a v e a d v i s e d

d i ff e r e n t ly t o s a y b u t w e d o n o t a g r e e w it h y o u .

This document has

a ls o b e e n a t ta c h e d to a n u m b e r o f o t h e r d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e h a d b e e n
le g a l ly d o i n g . H e n c e I a m s a y in g C h a ir th e r e f e r e n c e t o t h is d o c u m e n t

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w a s f o r p r o te c t i o n p u r p o s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e le t u s t a lk a b o u t th a t p r o t e c t io n b e c a u s e
in p a r t t h a t is w h a t M s G c a b a s h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t b u t s h e m a y – a t t h i s
s t a g e s h e m i g h t b e t a l k i n g a b o u t a c e r t a in a s p e c t o f t h e p r o t e c t io n . L e t
u s ta lk a b o u t a n o t h e r a s p e c t o f p r o t e c ti o n .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is a p r o te c t i o n t h a t I s a i d t o y o u , y o u m a y h a v e
b e e n th in k i n g o f a n d y o u a g r e e d . O k a y ?

Now the point – part of the

p o i n t b e in g m a d e is I w il l – o r a t l e a s t t h a t is w h a t I a m t h i n k i n g . I f y o u
10

a r e g o in g t o r e ly o n a n a g r e e m e n t o r o n t h is m e m o r a n d u m o f
u n d e r s t a n d in g a t le a s t y o u w o u l d b e e x p e c te d t o c h e c k th a t i t w a s
o p e r a ti o n a l a lr e a d y. B e c a u s e i f i t w a s n o t o p e r a ti o n a l i t c o u l d n o t g iv e
y o u a n y p r o te c t i o n , d o y o u a g r e e w i th t h e l a tt e r p a r t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o – s o d i d y o u c h e c k w h e t h e r it w a s

o p e r a ti o n a l b e f o r e r e ly in g o n i t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r t h e d o c u m e n t w a s a lr e a d y

o p e r a ti o n a li s e d b e c a u s e o n g o i n g m e e ti n g s w e r e h a p p e n in g b e tw e e n th e
t w o d e p a r t m e n ts .
20

T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d

t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e i n I n d i a .

S o t h is m e m o r a n d u m o f

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s b e i n g o p e r a t i o n a lis e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u h e a r d M s G c a b a s h e r e f e r r i n g y o u to a

c e r t a i n c l a u s e I t h i n k i t w a s 5 i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n w h ic h s e ts o u t w h a t
n e e d e d to b e d o n e b e fo r e th e m e m o r a n d u m c o u l d b e o p e r a t i o n a l .

Do

y o u n o t a g r e e t h a t t h o s e r e q u i r e m e n ts t h a t s h e d r e w y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o

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w e r e r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t h a d t o b e m e t b e fo r e th e m e m o r a n d u m c o u l d b e
o p e r a ti o n a l ?

D o y o u n o t a g r e e w i t h th a t p a r t ?

Ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h a t

m a y h a v e b e e n h a p p e n in g f a c t u a ll y n a m e l y m a y b e t h e r e w e r e m e e ti n g s
t a k i n g p la c e n o t w i t h s t a n d in g th e f a c t t h a t m a y b e t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n t s
h a d n o t b e e n m e t . L e a v e o u t w h a t m a y h a v e b e e n h a p p e n in g f a c t u a l ly.
I f y o u l o o k a t t h a t c l a u s e a n d r e q u ir e m e n t s b e i n g s e t d o y o u n o t a g r e e
t h a t t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n ts w o u ld h a v e h a d t o b e m e t b e fo r e t h e
agreement – the memorandum could be operational?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

C h a i r t h a t is th e p a r t t h a t I a m – I

w a s n o t a g r e e i n g w it h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because my …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t a l k – t a lk t o t h a t, le t m e h e a r th a t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

My u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th a t w a s y o u

c a n n o t d o b u s i n e s s w it h a c o u n tr y u n ti l th e r e is a s i g n e d b i la t e r a l
a g r e e m e n t c o u n tr y t o c o u n tr y.
agree with that one.

That is the one which I said I do not

B e c a u s e a t – u n t i l y o u g e t to t h e c o u n tr y to

c o u n tr y y o u m u s t h a v e e x a m p l e s o f c o o p e r a ti o n ’s t h a t h a v e b e e n
s u c c e s s fu l th a t y o u c a n b e p a r t o f y o u r m o tiv a ti o n f o r t h e s i g n i n g . Yo u
20

m a y n o t r e ly a l l – y o u c a n n o t s a y w e w i ll o n ly d o b u s i n e s s o n c e c o u n tr y
t o c o u n tr y h a s b e e n s i g n e d w h e r e t h e r e i s a n o b j e c t io n . U n l e s s t h e r e
is a n o b j e c t io n t h a t w e d o n o t e n c o u r a g e c o u n tr y to c o u n tr y b u t i n t h is
in s t a n c e t h e r e h a s b e e n n o o b j e c ti o n b e c a u s e t h e M i n i s te r w h e n h e
s ig n s a n a g r e e m e n t h e g e ts d e d i c a t e d t o e n te r in t o th a t a g r e e m e n t. S o
I d i d n o t s e e a n y p r o b l e m f o r th is t o h a p p e n .

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CHAIRPERSON:
o th e r.

Ye s b u t ju s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e u n d e r s ta n d e a c h

A r e y o u s a y in g th a t th e c la u s e th a t M s G c a b a s h e r e a d t o y o u

h a s r e f le c ti n g r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t h a d t o b e s a tis f ie d b e f o r e th e
m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o u l d b e o p e r a ti o n a l ?
y o u d o n o t a g r e e th a t t h a t c l a u s e s a y s t h a t ?

A r e y o u s a y in g

Or do you want to be

r e fe r r e d t o i t? M s G c a b a s h e d o y o u w a n t t o c o n t in u e f r o m t h e r e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n h is a ffi d a v i t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

C h a ir m a n c a n I – c a n I a g a in j u s t

e l a b o r a t e a li t tl e b i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is f i n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n t h e p o i n t s th a t y o u a r e r a is i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e M r T h a b e th e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t u n d e r s c o r e s m y c o n c e r n w i t h th e

m a n n e r in w h ic h y o u h a v e u s e d t h is d o c u m e n t is th e fa c t t h a t i n 2 0 1 0
w h e n t h i s a g r e e m e n t w a s e n t e r e d in t o y o u i n f a c t w o r k e d a t th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d F is h e r i e s a n d Fo r e s tr y, d id y o u n o t ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u k n e w a b o u t th is d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e
y o u w o r k e d i n th a t e n v ir o n m e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u t h e n m o v e d t o t h e F r e e S t a t e to

p r i n c i p l e s w h o k n o w t h a t y o u h a v e c o m e fr o m a p a r tic u la r n a t io n a l

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
e n v ir o n m e n t . T h e y a c c e p t y o u i n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e / th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t o n th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t w h e n y o u
b r i n g in f o r m a t io n t o t h e m s u c h a s a m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t
w a s s i g n e d in r e l a ti o n to a g r ic u l t u r e t h e y c a n tr u s t t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s
t h a t y o u a r e m a k i n g t o t h e m . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I a m s a y in g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I understand.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h is is p r e c i s e ly th e p o i n t I m a k e .

B e c a u s e y o u k n e w th a t a jo i n t w o r k i n g c o m m i t t e e fir s t h a d t o w o r k
t h r o u g h a ll t h e le g a l i ti e s , th e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l is s u e s y o u k n e w th a t th is
10

d o c u m e n t w o u l d o n ly c o m e in t o f o r c e a t a l a te r s t a g e y e t y o u r e l ie d o n
it in 2 0 1 2 a n d c o n t in u e d t o r e ly o n i t n o w i n 2 0 1 9 .
MR

MBANA

PETER

T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir

the

memorandum

of

u n d e r s t a n d in g h a d a ti m e fr a m e p e r io d a n d t h i s ti m e f r a m e p e r i o d w a s to
e s t a b li s h t h e s e c o m m i t t e e s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t b e c o m e s o p e r a ti o n a l .
O u r r e f e r e n c e t o th e d o c u m e n t w a s t o s a y t h e r e is a lr e a d y a n
e s t a b li s h e d r e l a ti o n s h i p s o t h e t w o c o u n tr i e s a r e ta lk in g t o e a c h o t h e r.
T h a t is w h a t w e w e r e s a y i n g h e r e . W e w e r e n o t s a y i n g th e c o u n t r y h a s
– g e t t o a s ta g e w h e r e w e h a v e a r e la t i o n s h i p t h a t i s n o t b o u n d b y
ti m e f r a m e s . A n d w e h a v e a t ta c h e d t h e d o c u m e n t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay just – just so that we make progress.

Fr o m

w h a t y o u s a y i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t y o u a c c e p t c o u n c il ’s p r o p o s i t io n t h a t
the

s tr u c t u r e

contemplated

by

th e

memorandum

e s t a b li s h e d , is th a t c o r r e c t ? Yo u a c c e p t t h a t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The structure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e J W.

Page 59 of 187

had

not

been

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H a d b e e n e s t a b l is h e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d b e e n e s t a b lis h e d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s i t i n o p e r a t io n ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s i n o p e r a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y it i s j u s t i m p o r t a n t t h a t w h e n a q u e s ti o n is b e i n g
p u t to y o u y o u d e a l w i t h i t fi r s t e v e n if y o u h a v e s o m e e la b o r a t i o n s o
t h a t w e k n o w w h e r e a r e a s o f d i ff e r e n c e a r e . S o y o u s a y th e s tr u c t u r e
t o w h i c h s h e r e f e r r e d h a d b e e n e s t a b l is h e d ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d o e s t h a t m e a n th a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h e r e f o r e
is t h a t t h a t m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g – le t m e r e p h r a s e t h a t .

Is

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g th e r e fo r e t h a t e v e r y t h i n g , e v e r y r e q u ir e m e n t h a d
b e e n m e t t h a t n e e d e d t o b e m e t f o r t h e m e m o r a n d u m t o b e o p e r a ti o n a l ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O t h e r w is e C h a ir t h e r e w o u l d n o t h a v e
b e e n m e e t i n g s b e tw e e n t h e t w o c o u n tr i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o l e t u s g e t i t r i g h t . Ar e – is th a t a y e s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o I a m s a y in g – I a m c o n f ir m in g
C h a ir t h a t i t h a s b e e n m e t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t th e y h a v e a ll b e e n m e t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e m e e ti n g h a s b e e n o n g o i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e it i s o u r j o b t o m a k e

e n q u ir i e s a s a c o m m i s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a c tu a lly m a d e e n q u ir i e s i n g o v e r n m e n t
a n d I h a v e a n e m a il f r o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e , F o r e s tr y a n d
Fi s h e r i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t r e a d s a s fo ll o w s :
“ T h e M O U f o r th e R S – R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A fr ic a a n d
I n d ia w a s s i g n e d b y t h e p a r ti e s o n th e 4 J u n e 2 0 1 0
a n d n e v e r c a m e t o f o r c e th o u g h t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n
m e c h a n is m i n th e f o r m o f t h e j o i n t w o r k i n g g r o u p o n
10

a g r ic u lt u r e i s o n g o in g . ”
S o a n d th is is fr o m t h e D ir e c t o r w h o h e a d s th e D ir e c t o r a te .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h is C h a ir m a n is t h a t
it n e v e r c a m e to f o r c e a n d i f a s i m p le e n q u ir y b y t h e c o m m i s s i o n c a n
e l ic i t a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e D ir e c t o r a t e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h a t p a r t o f t h e
w o r l d I d o n o t s e e w h y a f o r m e r c o ll e a g u e w h o w o r k e d i n t h a t
d e p a r t m e n t c o u l d n o t j u s t h a v e m a d e e n q u ir y b e f o r e r e ly i n g o n a
d o c u m e n t a n d a l l o w e i n g h is p r in c i p l e s to b e l ie v e th a t t h e y c o u ld r e ly o n
a p a r ti c u l a r d o c u m e n t . I – t h a t is w h e r e m y d i ff ic u l ty li e s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s - le t m e j u s t g o b a c k t o …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 6 - 5 - 9 C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: 6-5-9.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . I w o u ld l ik e t o a d d C h a ir m a n a n d t o

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
y o u Mr T h a b e t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t th a t p a r a g r a p h 8 I r e f e r t o i n y o u r

a ffi d a v i t o f 2 0 1 7 p r e c e d e s t h e v is i t t o I n d ia p a r a g r a p h .

So I am

a s s u m i n g - i t i s t h e o n ly in f e r e n c e o n e c a n r e a ll y d r a w th a t w h e n y o u
w e n t to v is i t P a r a s y o u g a v e t h e m th e s a m e i m p r e s s io n w i th r e s p e c t t o
t h e r e l a t i o n s b e t w e e n I n d i a a n d t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u th A f r i c a n a n d th a t
is o f r e a l c o n c e r n b e c a u s e t h e y t o o k y o u r w o r d f o r i t a s d i d o u r
p r o v i n c i a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s / G o v e r n m e n t r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s l a r g e ly b e c a u s e
10

o f y o u r h i s t o r y i n t h a t n a ti o n a l d e p a r t m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair can I - can I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Respond to that?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I d o n o t a g r e e C h a ir. I a m - I - I
t h o u g h t I w a s e x p l a i n i n g t o s a y p u t ti n g - p u tt i n g i t i n fo r c e w o u ld m e a n
e v e n t u a l ly t h a t t h e - t h e tw o c o u n tr i e s h a v e g o t a n a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e
d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n p u t ti n g t h is a g r e e m e n t in f o r c e .

I t m e a n s th e

s y s te m s w e r e a c t iv a t e d . Th a t - th a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g .
20

T h e s y s t e ms w e r e a c t iv a t e d a n d t h e r e s p o n s e s h e is r e a d i n g
says so. That the systems have been activated. They are ongoing.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M a y b e l e t u s - l e t u s - I m a y h a v e a ls o

c o n tr i b u t e d to s o m e o f t h e c o n f u s io n . I h a d u n d e r s to o d - n o I t h i n k m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s - w a s c o r r e c t . 5 . 1 - Ar t ic l e 5 . 1 s a y s :
“A

j o in e d

a g r i c u l tu r a l

working

Page 62 of 187

group

shall

be

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
e s t a b li s h e d to i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o v is i o n s o f t h is
Memorandum of Understanding.”
S o fr o m t h a t y o u c a n s e e t h a t w h a t i s s a i d i s th a t fo r t h e
i m p l e m e n t o f th is m e m o r a n d u m y o u n e e d t h is g r o u p .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

N o w m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h ic h m a y h a v e b e e n

w r o n g o f M s G c a b a s h e ’s q u e s ti o n t o y o u o r o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s m u c h
e a r l ie r w a s th a t s h e w a s s a y i n g t h is g r o u p h a d n o t b e e n e s t a b lis h e d
a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e r e c o u l d b e n o - th e m e m o r a n d u m c o u ld n o t b e
10

o p e r a ti o n a l .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d t h a t p a r t b u t y o u - y o u
d i d s a y r e c e n t ly th a t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e g r o u p w h o h a d b e e n e s t a b li s h e d …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I t h i n k t h e e m a il t h a t M s G c a b a s h e h a s r e a d

c o n fir m s th a t p a r t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e g r o u p h a d b e e n e s t a b li s h e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h a t is f a c t u a lly c o r r e c t i t w o u l d s e e m t h e r e f o r e th a t
t h e g r o u p th a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o i m p le m e n t t h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s t h e r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is …
CHAIRPERSON:

Whether

or

not

they

Page 63 of 187

were

i m p le m e n ti n g

th e

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
memorandum …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The mem orandum, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

M i g h t b e a n o t h e r i s s u e b u t th a t t h e y h a d b e e n

e s t a b li s h e d s e e m s to b e a c c e p t e d a s f a c tu a l ly c o r r e c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I a m h a p p y t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To j u s t g e t a n a ff i d a v i t fr o m t h i s p a r t ic u l a r
10

d ir e c t o r a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t I c a n a ls o c o n fir m t h a t w h e n y o u lo o k
a t th e D I R C O w e b s i t e - my c o l l e a g u e h a s j u s t s h o w n m e - y o u h a v e
a g r e e m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n s i g n e d .
U n d e r s t a n d in g t h e r e a s w e l l .

There are Memorandum of

T h is p a r ti c u l a r o n e is r e fl e c t e d o n th e

s i te w it h t h e o n e s th a t h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t i n to f o r c e a n o t e i s t h e r e
a g a in s t t h a t p a r tic u la r a g r e e m e n t .
W i th t h is p a r tic u l a r a g r e e m e n t t h e r e is n o n o t e t h a t s a y s i t
h a s c o m e i n to f o r c e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Well …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o I r e a l ly a m s i m p ly q u e s ti o n i n g th e

d i li g e n c e o f t h i s v e r y s e n i o r p u b l ic o ffic i a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y - m a y b e b e f o r e w e l o o k a t t h e d ili g e n c e w e
lo o k - w e n e e d t o l o o k a t w h a t i t is t h a t n e e d e d to b e d o n e i n o r d e r to
p u t i t i n f o r c e i f th e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e g r o u p w a s n o t e n o u g h to p u t i t

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
in fo r c e .

So let us cover that because maybe that is where the - the

tr i c k i s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o i f y o u t h e n l o o k a t A r ti c l e 5 . 2 i t r e a d s
a s fo ll o w s :
“ T h e h e a d s o f th e J AW G s h a l l b e s e n i o r o ff ic i a l s . ”
Sub 3 reads:
“ T h e J AW G s h a l l b e r e s p o n s i b le f o r e s t a b lis h in g
10

w o r k i n g g r o u p s , a p p r o v i n g a n d o v e r s e e in g t h e ir
work

p la n s ,

i m p l e m e n ti n g

a s s e s s in g
programs

of

th e
the

o u tc o m e s

of

Memorandum

of

U n d e r s t a n d in g , s u b m it t in g p r o p o s a l s f o r t h e f u tu r e
d e v e l o p m e n t a n d i m p r o v e m e n t a n d r e c o m m e n d in g
s o l u ti o n s t o o v e r c o m i n g p r o b l e m s a n d d i ffi c u l t ie s . ”
T h a t is w h e r e t h e p r o t e c ti o n e l e m e n t t h a t M r T h a b e t h e - t h a t
you referred to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e - w e w i ll h a v e t o c h e c k w i t h h i m …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is d o e s n o t g iv e h i m …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r t h a t is w h a t h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a , C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t - i s - a r e - is - is - a r e t h e t h i n g s m e n ti o n e d i n
A r t ic le 5 . 3 th e t h i n g s y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t w h e n y o u s a i d y o u w o u ld
r e l y o n th is m e m o r a n d u m f o r p r o te c t i o n if s o m e th i n g w e n t w r o n g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a i r.

Page 65 of 187

T h e - t h e i t e ms t h a t a r e

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
being mentioned here were programs of the working groups that they
w i ll - t h e y a r e g o i n g t o w o r k o n b u t i t - i t d o e s - i t d o e s n o t s a y a ll - a l l
in v e s t m e n t o p p o r t u n i t ie s t h a t e x is t b e t w e e n th e t w o c o u n tr i e s h a v e to
g o t h r o u g h t h is w o r k i n g g r o u p . I t - i t d o e s n o t s a y t h a t .
S o i t - it s a y s t h e s e a r e th e k e y a r e a s t h a t - t h e y w i ll b e d e a l t
w i t h a n d t h e m e e t i n g s b e tw e e n t h e t w o w o r k in g g r o u p s w i ll b e
c o n ti n u o u s ly

dealing

w it h

-

w it h

those

th in g s

and

that

is

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

J u s t a r ti c u l a t e a g a i n w h a t i t is th a t y o u r e g a r d e d a s

p r o t e c t io n th a t y o u t h o u g h t w a s n e c e s s a r y fo r y o u r - fo r a r r a n g e m e n ts a r r a n g e m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o P a r a s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h i s m e m o r a n d u m .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

P r o t e c t i o n w i ll m e a n t h e r e - t h e r e is

o n g o i n g e n g a g e m e n t b e tw e e n t h e t w o c o u n tr i e s .

I f - i f y o u w e r e to

r a i s e a c o n c e r n y o u h a v e a p la t f o r m th a t y o u c a n g e t i n to a n d r a is e
your concern.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is t h e p r o te c ti o n b e c a u s e t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

T h e - i t - it is t h e r e .

It is in

e x i s te n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is t h e p r o t e c t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e t a l k in g a b o u t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t y o u - y o u c o u ld th e n g o t o a p p r o a c h n a ti o n a l -

Page 66 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s a y w e h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t w it h a p r iv a t e e n ti t y i n
I n d ia …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e h a v e th e s e p r o b l e m s .

S e e w h e t h e r th e

G o v e r n m e n t o f In d i a c a n a s s i s t u s o r n o t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I b e l ie v e i t c a n b e c le a r e d u p b y
a n a ffi d a v it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M i g h t I j u s t p o i n t o u t t h o u g h t h a t A r t ic le 8
o f th e s a m e M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d i n g d e a l s w i t h th e d e ta il s o f
jo in t i m p le m e n t a ti o n p r o g r a m s .

S o t h a t is a c o m p l e t e ly s e p a r a t e

s e c t io n . T h e d e t a i ls o f th e j o i n t i m p l e m e n t a t i o n p r o g r a m b u t b e t h a t a s
it m a y C h a i r m a n t h e - t h e c o n c e r n r e a l l y i s w h a t Mr T h a b e t h e - th e
c o n c e r n is w h a t y o u d id g i v e n t h a t y o u t h e H e a d o f a D e p a r t m e n t a n d
a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r i n r e la t io n t o y o u r r e li a n c e o n t h i s d o c u m e n t to g iv e
20

c o m f o r t t o y o u r p r in c i p a ls a n d t o g iv e c o m f o r t t o a t h ir d p a r ty t h a t s o m e
p r o t e c t io n w o u ld b e a fo r w a r d .
S o m e - s o m e - a ff o r d e d b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a v e h i c l e fo r
r e s o l v i n g a n y d i ffi c u l ti e s t h a t m i g h t a r i s e . T h i s d o c u m e n t d o e s n o t g iv e
y o u t h a t p r o t e c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u - y o u a r e f r e e t o - t o c o m m e n t a n d d e f e n d y o u r

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
p o s i ti o n i f y o u w a n t t o d o th a t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Chair I do

n o t a g r e e t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t w i ll n o t o ff e r a n y p r o t e c ti o n b e c a u s e i t
o ffe r s y o u a p la t f o r m to r a i s e y o u r c o n c e r n b e c a u s e i f - i f t h e
G o v e r n m e n t o f t h a t c o u n tr y c a n t h e n e n g a g e a n d y o u a r e a b l e t o
e n g a g e t h e m t h e p r o b le m w il l b e w h e r e y o u d o n o t h a v e a p la t f o r m t o
engage then.
T h e n y o u h a v e a p r o b le m .

Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h o t o ta lk t o .

Therefore I say it does not mean that this document was just signed for
10

t h e s a k e o f s i g n i n g . I t - i t is f o r a s s is ti n g t h e c o u n t r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o it m i g h t - y o u - y o u s a y i t m i g h t n o t b e s t r ic t

p r o t e c t io n o r g u a r a n t e e d p r o t e c ti o n b u t y o u s a y i t p r o v id e s - i t p r o v i d e d
a c h a n n e l t h r o u g h w h ic h y o u c o u ld a s k th e G o v e r n m e n t o f In d ia t o d o
something if Paras gave you problems?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n t e r m s o f w h a t i t i s t h a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f In d ia
c o u l d d o o r c o u l d n o t d o th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja …
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t c o u l d b e th a t th e r e w a s l e g a lly n o p r o t e c t io n i t
could provide but you say at least a request could be sent through
channels?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

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A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I j u s t s a y Mr T h a b e t h e th a t o n e o f t h e
r e a s o n s t h is a g r e e m e n t - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n - t h i s M e m o r a n d u m o f
U n d e r s t a n d in g a n d i t s i n t e r p r e t a ti o n i s i m p o r t a n t t o th e m a t t e r s o f t h e
Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t i s b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a d e b a t e o n w h e t h e r y o u h a d
e s t a b li s h e d a p r iv a t e /p u b l ic p a r t n e r s h i p i n e n g a g i n g P a r a s a n d E s ti n a
o r w h e th e r s o m e o th e r f o r m o f a g r e e m e n t h a d b e e n e n t e r e d i n t o .
N o w t h e m e m o r a n d u m - t h e r e w a s th a t d e b a t e .

Maybe I

s h o u l d s to p th e r e fir s t . T h e r e w a s a d e b a t e . W a s th e r e n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

T h e - t h e r e w e r e s u s p ic i o n s C h a ir

t h a t w e h a v e e n te r e d i n t o a n il le g a l p u b l ic /p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s h i p b u t a t
t h a t s t a g e w e h a d a n a g r e e m e n t s ig n e d a n d i t w a s n o t t h a t . S o I d o n o t
u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e i t c a m e fr o m b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t o n t h e
t a b le a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t a P P P a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

N o I th i n k M s G c a b a s h e s i m p ly w a n te d y o u to

c o n fir m t h a t t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s a y i n g i s th is n o t a p u b l ic y o u
k n o w a p r i v a t e - p u b l ic / p r i v a t e p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t a n d o t h e r s s a y in g
it is n o t .

I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t s h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d y o u a r e

c o n fir m i n g t h a t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is s o .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h i s p a r tic u la r M e m o r a n d u m o f

U n d e r s t a n d in g c o u l d e i t h e r h a v e a ff o r d e d a v e h ic le o r p r o t e c t io n - t h e
p r o t e c t io n y o u s p e a k o f h a d i t b e e n i n o p e r a ti o n o r - a n d p e o p l e s h o u l d
h a v e u n d e r s t o o d it s s t a t u s o r i t w o u l d n o t h a v e a n d t h a t i s - t h a t is

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r e a l ly th e b o t t o m - t h e b o tt o m li n e . T h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h y o u h a v e u s e d
t h is d o c u m e n t . T h a t is - th a t i s r e a l ly t h e o n ly c o n te n ti o u s p o in t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Chair I do not agree.

Th e - th e

d e b a te w a s n o t o n t h e b a s i s o f th is d o c u m e n t a n d i t d id - i t h a s n e v e r
r e fe r r e d t o th is d o c u m e n t t o b e h a v e b e e n u s e d f o r t h a t d e b a t e . T h a t is
w h y I s a y I d o n o t - I d o n o t a g r e e b e c a u s e la t e r i t w a s a ls o c o n f ir m e d
t h a t i n d e e d i t i s n o t a f t e r a ll d o c u m e n t s w e r e - w e r e m a d e a v a il a b l e .
S o i t - i t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n r e f e r r e d to t h is d o c u m e n t
b e c a u s e t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s r e le a s e d l a t e r n o t b e f o r e t h e d e b a te b u t
10

w h e n t h e in q u ir i e s w e r e d o n e i t i s o n ly t h e n th a t t h e y s a w t h is
d o c u m e n t . S o i t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n u s e d o r r e li e d o n fo r t h e d e b a t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I - I am moving onto a new …
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

I w a s a b o u t to s a y w e h a v e s p e n t q u i t e s o m e

ti m e …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h i s d o c u m e n t, j a . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r G a ji n d e r K u m a r
- y o u t h e n i n v i t e d h i m to c o m e t o S o u t h A fr ic a ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n d id h e a r r iv e i n S o u t h A f r i c a ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I n e e d to r e f e r b a c k C h a ir t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . F e e l fr e e t o d o s o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 2 8 8 o f H H 1 0 m ig h t b e o f a s s is t a n c e
t o y o u . Yo u r p a r a g r a p h 1 2 .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 258.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h o p e I a m g e tt i n g - o h , n o . T h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Tw o - 2 3 8 n o t 2 8 8 , 2 3 8 . Th a t i s th e 2 0 1 7
a ffi d a v i t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u s a y
it is p a r a g r a p h - C h a ir ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

1-2 - 12.

Yo u t h e n i n v i t e d th e C h i e f

E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r o f P a r a s .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D id y o u s a y 2 3 8 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

2 - 3 - 8 C h a ir m a n a n d i t w il l j u s t b e

p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f th e - th e c l e a n d o c u m e n t .

I beg your pardon

C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. N o , n o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is page 238 period.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I t h i n k a l l t h is d is c u s s i o n a b o u t t h a t

memorandum has confused me.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is just page 238 Chairman.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m - I a m - I w a s - I w a s l o o k i n g a t th e b l a c k

numbers instead of the red numbers.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: So yes I have got it.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 th e r e o f .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 71 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

Yo u

just

needed

some

r e m in d e r

Mr Thabethe.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Look at …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I w a s - i t i s r e f e r r in g to …
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e d n u m b e r s h e y.

Have you got it?

The red

numbers page 2-3-8.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t h o u g h t i t - it w a s r e f e r r in g m e t o

t h e a tt a c h m e n t w h ic h i n d ic a te s t h e d a t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th is p a r a g r a p h d o e s n o t g i v e t h e

dates because the question was when.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I thought you might be able to remember

o n c e y o u l o o k e d a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h y o u h a d n o t e d it i n y o u r
a ffi d a v i t .

I n a n y e v e n t w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n e a r ly i n t h e y e a r, w o u l d i t

have been …
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

L a te r i n th e y e a r, w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n

towards the end of t2012?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir i n m y f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t t h o s e

d a t e s w e r e - w e r e i n d ic a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e g iv e n .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C a n I - c a n I l o o k fo r t h a t o n e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e it h a s th e d a t e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I - I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u n e e d th e p a r ti c u l a r

d e t a i l M s G c a b a s h e w h e t h e r j u s t t h e m o n t h m ig h t d o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e m o n th is in o r d e r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u r e m e m b e r - w a s i t e a r ly i n - i n 2 0 1 2 ,

February/March?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Or was it in the previous year?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u ld it h a v e … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s it s o o n a f te r y o u h a d c o m e b a c k - y o u h a d c o m e
b a c k fr o m In d ia ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t w a s - it w a s a f t e r I h a d c o m e b a c k
fr o m I n d ia .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

B u t r e a s o n a b ly s o o n o r t w o / th r e e m o n t h s l a t e r o r -

a ft e r y o u c a m e b a c k ? Yo u w i ll n o t b e h e ld t o th a t a s lo n g a s it i s m o r e
o r l e s s - g iv e s u s a n i d e a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t c o u ld h a v e b e e n a m o n th o r t w o

C h a ir. I t w a s n o t a v e r y lo n g p e r io d .
CHAIRPERSON: That might be good enough.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: But I can …

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t - is t h a t g o o d e n o u g h ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is g o o d e n o u g h C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

It is a n i n tr o d u c t io n t o a t o ta ll y d i ff e r e n t

t o p ic .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Line of questions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t - s o i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n b e f o r e y o u

s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t o f 5 J u n e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R i g h t. W h o s u g g e s t e d t h a t Es t in a p a r t n e r
Paras?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir - C h a ir d u r in g th e v is i t o f t h e t h e I n d ia n c o m p a n y …
CHAIRPERSON: Paras?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Paras. They - they indicated interest
n o t o n ly o n th e m o d e l b u t a l s o t o i n v e s t i n t o t h e p r o j e c t .
20

Then my

c o n c e r n t o t h e m w a s t h a t it - i t w o u l d b e v e r y d i ffic u lt to i n t e r a c t a n d
e n t e r in t o a n a g r e e m e n t w i th a f o r e i g n c o m p a n y. F o r u s t o b e a b le t o
d o th a t t h e y m u s t r e g i s t e r i n S o u t h A fr ic a o r h a v e a p a r tn e r i n g c o m p a n y
t h a t th e y - w e c a n o p e r a t e w i th .
T h a t - th a t i s w h a t w e i n d ic a t e d t o t h e m . T h a t w e w i ll n o t b e
a b l e t o d o s o b e c a u s e if - i f y o u e n t e r in t o a n a g r e e m e n t w i th a

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
c o m p a n y t h a t i ts l a w s d o n o t a p p ly i n S o u t h A fr ic a w e a r e g o i n g t o
s tr u g g l e .

Th e y h a d t o r e g is te r o r i d e n ti f y a c o m p a n y w h i c h th e y c a n

work with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e r e fo r e t h a t w h e n y o u w e n t t o
I n d ia E s ti n a h a d n o t b e e n id e n ti fi e d y e t a s a c o m p a n y t h a t w o u ld b e
in v o lv e d in t h i s d a ir y p r o je c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a t th a t s t a g e w h e n y o u w e n t t o I n d i a i s t h e

p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e n o t c o n te m p l a t i n g a s y e t t h a t P a r a s w o u l d n e e d
10

t o b e r e g is t e r e d in S o u t h A f r ic a o r th a t th e y w o u ld n e e d to w o r k w i t h a
lo c a l c o m p a n y. A t t h a t s ta g e is i t s o m e t h i n g t h a t o n l y c a m e u p w h e n
t h e y v is i te d S o u th A fr ic a ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

What I

c a n a l s o i n d i c a t e is th a t i t w a s a ls o o u r i n te r e s t to r a i s e th e ir in t e r e s t
f o r i n v e s t m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h ic h d u r i n g t h e v is i t t h e y i n d ic a te d

t h a t th e y c a n w o r k w i t h u s b u t t h e y h a d n o t c o n fir m e d i f t h e y w o u l d
w a n t to i n v e s t .
20

H e n c e w e th e n i n v i t e d t h e m t o s a y th is i s w h e r e w e

w a n t t o d o t h e p r o j e c t . Th is is h o w w e w a n t to d o th e p r o j e c t . Ar e y o u
in t e r e s te d ?

Can we use your - your model because we did not want

a ls o t o b e a c c u s e d o f u s i n g a m o d e l t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e p e r m is s i o n to
use?
O n - o n t h o s e b a s is t h e n I in v i t e d t h e m t o c o m e a n d w e h a d
d is c u s s io n w it h t h e m .

W e t o o k t h e m t o t h e s i te w h e r e w e i n t u r n

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h o u g h t w e w i ll h a v e th e p r o je c t p u t u p a n d t h e n t h e y i n d ic a t e d t h e t h e i n t e r e s t a n d w e - w e t h e r e fo r e i n d ic a t e d t o t h e m h o w w o u l d - w e
w o u ld w a n t th e m t o - to w o r k w i t h u s . E i t h e r t o r e g i s te r o r to h a v e a
c o m p a n y i n S o u t h A fr ic a t h a t t h e y c o u l d w o r k t h r o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n y o u w e r e i n I n d i a h a v i n g d is c u s s i o n s w i t h

t h e P a r a s o ffi c i a l s w a s y o u r c o n t e m p l a ti o n s i m p ly t h a t y o u w e r e - y o u
w a n t e d to s e e h o w th e ir m o d e l w o r k e d a n d y o u w o u l d t h e n c o m e b a c k
a n d s e e k t o a p p ly it i n s o u t h - i n S o u th A fr ic a a n d t h a t th e i r
in v o lv e m e n t in t h e p r o j e c t w o u ld b e li m i t e d t o t h e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e
10

u s i n g th e ir m o d e l a n d m a y b e w h e r e y o u h a v e p r o b l e ms y o u c o u l d
c o n s u l t th e m b u t t h a t - t h a t is w h e r e - h o w f a r t h e y w o u ld g o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t - it w a s b o th C h a ir.

In an event

they would have said no we do not want to be an investor in the
p r o j e c t . W e - w e w o u l d t h e n o n ly g e t p e r m is s i o n fr o m th e m t o u s e th e i r
model.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u - y o u w a n t e d t o u s e t h e ir - y o u r fir s t p r iz e

w a s p e r m is s i o n t o u s e t h e ir - t h e ir m o d e l …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e ir m o d e l , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e m b e in g a n i n v e s t o r i n th e p r o g r a m ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d - a n d y o u d i s c u s s e d th e s e w h il e - w h i l e y o u
w e r e in - in I n d i a w i th t h e m …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a p o s s i b i li ty ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C o r r e c t C h a ir.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e y i n d ic a t e d s o m e i n c l i n a t io n o n e w a y o r

another?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

The - the use of the model -

t h e y w e r e a c tu a l ly s a y i n g it w i ll o p e n u p f o r t h e m b e c a u s e i n - in th e i r
p r e s e n t a ti o n t h e y h a v e a l s o i n d ic a te d t o u s t h a t t h e y - t h e y w e r e
e x p o r t i n g m ilk fr o m I n d i a t o - I a m t r y i n g t o r e c o l l e c ti n g n o w w h e th e r i t
w a s N i g e r i a o r - b u t I t h i n k i t w a s N i g e r i a w h e r e th e y h a v e b e e n p u tt i n g
m il k .
T h e y w o u l d s a y t h e n i f - if y o u h a v e a s y s t e m s i m il a r to u s
10

t h e y b e l i e v e t h a t t h is m il k c o u l d t h e n b e t a k e n fr o m S o u t h A fr i c a t o
Nigeria because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

They

w o u ld

have

guaranteed

-

b e c a u s e i n th e ir p r e s e n t a ti o n t h e ir q u a li f ic a t io n s a n d t h e ir c e r t i fi c a t e
in d i c a t e d w h ic h q u a l i fi e s p a r tic u la r p r o d u c ts in t e r m s o f th e r e g i s t r a t io n
and ISO numbers.

S o th o s e w e r e t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e w a n t e d t h e m to

a s s is t u s t o g u a r a n te e th o s e l e v e ls o f q u a li ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

I - I t h i n k I m a y h a v e a s k e d y o u t h is q u e s ti o n

yesterday but I want to ask it again because I am trying to look at this
20

is s u e fr o m d i ff e r e n t a n g l e s i n c l u d i n g y o u r a n g l e o k a y.

Could you just

t e ll m e a g a in w h a t th e i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s w e r e o f t h is m o d e l o f P a r a s
t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o i m p l e m e n t i n - i n S o u t h A fr ic a in t e r m s o f t h is
p r o j e c t ? W h a t w e r e th e s p e c i a l f e a t u r e s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

C h a ir w h e r e - w h e r e - w h e n w e

d i d o u r in i ti a l r e s e a r c h w e r e a l is e d t h a t i n t h e m o d e l t h e y w e r e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
c o l l e c ti n g m i lk f r o m t h e s m a l l f a r m e r s a n d - a n d t h a t i s w h a t w e
in t e n d e d to d o v e r s u s th e o t h e r m o d e ls t h a t w e h a v e b e e n l o o k in g a t .
T h e s y s te m o f c o l le c ti n g t h e m il k p l u s t h e a d d i ti o n a l s u p p o r t t h a t t h e y
h a v e b e e n g iv e n .
So that was key for us because we have - we have not seen a
m o d e l s i m il a r t o th a t b e i n g - b e i n g i m p le m e n te d s o m e w h e r e a n d - a n d
t h a t i s w h a t w e w a n t e d t o d o . W h e n w e w e n t t h e r e w e t h e n e s ta b l is h e d
o th e r a d v a n t a g e s t h a t w e r e n o t p a r t o f o u r - o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n li k e t h e
s u p p o r t s y s t e m th a t t h e y h a v e b e e n g iv i n g to t h e f a r m e r s . T h e y w o u l d
10

n o t o n ly c o ll e c t t h e m i lk b u t t h e y h a d a s y s t e m o f s u p p o r ti n g th e m a n d
m a k i n g s u r e th a t th e s e e n t e r p r i s e s w e r e g r o w i n g .
S o th o s e - th o s e w e r e - w e r e a ls o g o o d e n o u g h f o r u s t o s a y
if - i f y o u h a d t o b e c o m e i n v e s t o r s w o u l d t h e s e f e a tu r e s a ls o c o m e w it h
y o u s o t h a t y o u a s s is t t h a t w e t h e e x p e c t e d . S o m e o f t h e is s u e s th a t
w e r e t h e r e w e r e - w e r e th e c e r ti f ic a ti o n t h a t in t e r n a t io n a l c e r t i fic a ti o n
f o r t h e ir m i lk w h ic h y o u c o u l d u s e t o e x p o r t t h e m e a t a n d s e l l i t
a n y w h e r e l ik e t h e y w e r e d o i n g s o .
T h o s e w e r e a d d i ti o n a l f e a tu r e s w h ic h i f t h e y a r e n o t p a r ty t o
y o u - y o u w o u ld n o t u s e th e m . T h e y c a n o n ly b e u s e d b y t h e m .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

No.

I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h i s t h in g th a t y o u w o u l d

r e q u ir e p e r m is s io n f r o m t h e m t o c o ll e c t m e a t fr o m t h e - fr o m t h e lo c a l
f a r m e r s . Ar e y o u a b l e to … ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t - n o t th e c o l l e c ti o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, what?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u - r e m e m b e r w h e n y o u m a r k e t m il k

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
it h a s I S O s t a n d a r d s w h i c h is a c c r e d i t e d t o y o u . C e r t a in l e v e l s o f - o f
hygiene and so on.

Yo u n e e d t h e m t o a s s is t y o u t o a c h i e v e t h a t

s t a n d a r d b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e b e e n t h e r e . T h e y k n o w h o w to d e a l w i t h i t .
T h e n t h e y w il l p r o v i d e s u p p o r t to y o u r f a r m e r s to p r o d u c e m i lk o f t h a t
s t a n d a r d o f c e r t if ic a ti o n .
T h a t is w h a t I a m t r y i n g to s a y. N o t t o c o ll e c t th e m il k . Yo u
c a n c o l le c t t h e m i lk b u t i t m a y n o t r e a c h th e s ta n d a r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h ic h th e y h a d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i n t e r m s o f a c tu a l c e r ta i n t y o f c o n t e n t w h a t w a s

s p e c i a l a b o u t w h a t t h e y d i d t o p u t t h e m i lk a t th e r ig h t q u a l it y l e v e l ?
Wa s t h a t s o m e t h in g th a t is u n u s u a l in S o u t h A f r i c a w h a t n e e d e d to w h a t th e y w e r e d o i n g t o m a k e s u r e th e i r m i lk w a s a t t h e r i g h t q u a li t y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r t h e y w i ll n e v e r te ll y o u . I t is - i t
is - t h e y - t h e y - th a t is t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t y o u n e v e r g e t t o k n o w.
T h e y w il l n e v e r te ll y o u h o w t h e y a c h i e v e d b e c a u s e t h e y a r e i n - i n t h e
c o m p e ti t io n . T h e r e a r e th i n g s t h a t t h e y d o t o g e t th e m t o a p a r tic u la r
le v e l. T h e y w i ll n e v e r t e l l y o u . I f - i f I m a y u s e a n e x a m p l e C h a ir.
K F C w ill n e v e r g i v e y o u t h e ir i n g r e d i e n ts t o g e t t o w h a t y o u 20

y o u e a t a s K F C b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t w a n t y o u to d o i t .

It i s t h e ir

in t e l le c t u a l p r o p e r t y. I f y o u w a n t i t …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

N o , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t.

I a m s o r r y.

I am

in t e r r u p t in g y o u Mr T h a b e t h e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I u n d e r s t a n d th a t b u t in S o u t h A f r ic a t h e r e a r e b ig

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
c o m p a n i e s w h ic h d e a l w i th m il k a n d t h a t m ilk m u s t b e a t a s t a n d a r d
w h ic h i s a c c e p t a b l e n a ti o n a lly in t h e c o u n t r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w e r e n o t l o o k i n g a t e x p o r t i n g th e mi lk th a t
y o u w o u ld p r o d u c e fr o m t h is f a r m .

Yo u w e r e n o t lo o k i n g a t t h a t.

So

w h a t e v e r t h e s t a n d a r d is y o u - y o u h a d n o r e a s o n t o w h a t a n y s t a n d a r d
t h a t w o u l d b e b e y o n d t h e s ta n d a r d a c c e p t e d n a t i o n a l ly i n S o u t h A fr i c a .
T h a t is m y t h i n k i n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w t h e c o m p a n i e s h e r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a m u s t
b e a b l e - m u s t b e a b l e to p u t - m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y t h is is w h a t y o u
n e e d to d o i f y o u w a n t y o u r - t h e q u a l i ty o f y o u r m i lk to r e a c h t h i s l e v e l .
W h y - w h y - w h a t is s p e c ia l a s a f e a t u r e i n th a t w i t h r e g a r d t o P a r a s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. T h i s i s t h e d e b a te th a t w e
have had.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e h a d in v i te d t h e m b u t th e y d i d n o t
r e s p o n d to u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

B u t y o u s a y y o u a r e a l s o n o t a b l e t o a r t ic u l a te a n d

y o u m u s t j u s t b e - y o u m u s t lis t e n t o m e c a r e f u lly b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t w a n t
t o p u t w o r d s in t o y o u r m o u t h , y o u m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y i f y o u s a y t h a t ’s
n o t c o r r e c t . Yo u ’ r e n o t a b l e t o s a y w h a t t h e c o n t e n t o f th e f e a tu r e is
t h a t y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r in t h e ir m o d e l i n s o f a r a s p u t ti n g th e q u a li ty o f
m il k a t a c e r t a i n l e v e l .

Yo u s i m p ly s a y t h e r e i s s o m e t h in g t h e y d o , I

d o n ’t k n o w w h a t i t is , a n d I k n o w t h e y w o n ’ t g iv e i t t o m e b u t I li k e i t

Page 80 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
a n d th a t ’s w h a t I w a n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e g e n e r a l

h y g i e n e s t a n d a r d s a r e s e t a n d th o s e g e n e r a l h y g i e n e s t a n d a r d s a r e s e t
b y A g r ic u l t u r e , b u t i n e a c h a n d e v e r y c o m p a n y t h e r e a r e f e a t u r e s t h a t
y o u ’ ll n e v e r k n o w, t h a t th e y w i ll n o t d is c lo s e t o y o u o t h e r th a n t h e
general hygiene standard that you must set but those general hygiene
s t a n d a r d s t h a t a r e s e t N a ti o n a ll y n e e d s e x p e r ti s e f o r y o u t o b e a b le t o
a c h i e v e t h a t , n o w i f y o u h a v e a g r o u p o f s m a ll f a r m e r s y o u w a n t t h e m
t o a c h i e v e t h o s e s ta n d a r d s , y o u n e e d to p r o v i d e e x p e r t is e s u p p o r t t o
10

t h e m f o r t h e m t o b e a b l e to r e a c h t h o s e s t a n d a r d s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n th e e n d i t a p p e a r s to m e , t h a t r e a ll y f o r a ll

in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s , y o u r e v id e n c e a m o u n ts t o s a y i n g , a n d I w a n t y o u
t o b e a b l e t o s a y w h e th e r y o u a g r e e o r n o t, a m o u n ts t o s a y r e a l ly, t h e
o n ly r e a s o n w h y w e fi n d o u r s e lv e s h a v in g t o w o r k w i t h P a r a s w a s th a t
t h e lo c a l c o m p a n ie s w e r e n o t i n te r e s t e d i n h e l p i n g u s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

N o w Mr T h a b e th e , Mr K u m a r a r r i v e s i n

t h e c o u n tr y a n d y o u t a l k t o h i m a b o u t a lo c a l p a r t n e r, h a d y o u n o t
20

m e n ti o n e d th e l o c a l p a r t n e r a s p e c t t o h i m … [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M s G c a b a s h e I ’ m i n t e r r u p ti n g y o u a g a in , I

t h i n k t h a t a n s w e r a ls o s a y s , in e ffe c t , th a t r e a l ly t h e r e m i g h t h a v e n o t
b e e n a n y s i g n i fi c a n c e i n t h e ir m o d e l b e c a u s e i f t h e l o c a l c o m p a n i e s
w e r e p r e p a r e d t o w o r k w i t h u s , w h a t th e y w o u l d h a v e g iv e n u s w o u ld
h a v e b e e n a d e q u a t e f o r o u r p u r p o s e s a s w e l l.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W h a t I b e l ie v e d C h a ir, w a s t h a t

b e t w e e n u s a n d th e m w e c o u ld h a v e w o r k e d a m o d e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Just repeat that.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

M y b e l ie f w a s t h a t b e t w e e n u s a n d

t h e c o m p a n i e s in S o u th A f r i c a i f w e w o u l d h a v e a g r e e d w e w o u l d h a v e
agreed on a model and our model was very simple, provide support to
the small farmers.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I t h in k i t e m p h a s i s e s th e p o i n t th a t I w a n te d

t o c la r i fy w it h y o u t h a t , a c t u a l ly t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y, o n y o u r e v id e n c e ,
10

t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y y o u e n d u p w h e r e y o u s a y y o u e n d u p w i th P a r a s
is b e c a u s e l o c a l c o m p a n i e s a r e n o t i n te r e s t e d in w o r k in g w i t h y o u .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

O k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t M r

K u m a r a n d t h e q u e s ti o n w a s w h e t h e r y o u r a i s e d t h e i s s u e o f a lo c a l
partner with him when you were in India?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

My a p o l o g i e s C h a i r … [i n t e r v e n t i o n ] .
D i d y o u r a is e th e m a t te r o f a lo c a l

p a r t n e r w i t h M r K u m a r w h e n y o u w e r e i n In d i a ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir, i f t h e y w e r e to h a v e

in t e r e s t th e n t h e y w o u ld , e i t h e r c o m e a n d r e g is t e r a s a c o m p a n y in
S o u th A fr ic a , o p e r a t in g u n d e r th e l a w s o f th is c o u n tr y a n d i f n o t t h e r e
m u s t b e a c o m p a n y in S o u t h A f r i c a th a t t h e y w o u l d b e a b l e t o w o r k
through.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

In y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 2 , a t p a g e 2 3 8 t o

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
2 3 9 , y o u t a lk a b o u t t o u r i n g w i t h Mr K u m a r, y o u c a l l h i m t h e C E O h e r e ,
t h e n e x t s e n t e n c e is ta lk in g a b o u t th e i n t e r e s t h e h a d d e v e l o p e d , t h e
f o ll o w i n g s e n t e n c e s a y s ,
“ I t i s w h e n t h a t , t h e P a r a s d a ir y C E O w a s i n f o r m e d th a t h is
in t e r e s t o f in v e s t m e n t i n S o u th A f r i c a s h o u ld b e t h r o u g h a
S o u th A fr ic a n r e g i s te r e d c o m p a n y ” ,
S o i t ’s e i t h e r y o u in f o r m e d h i m w h e n y o u w e r e b u s y t o u r i n g th e
v ic in i ty o f Vr e d e o r y o u h a d m e n t io n e d t h is t o h i m w h e n y o u w e r e i n
I n d ia , it c a n ’ t b e b o th o r i f i t is , m a y b e ju s t e x p l a i n i t to t h e C h a ir m a n ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I’ m tr y i n g t o fi n d t h e d o c u m e n t C h a ir

is i t o n H H 1 0 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 2 3 9 , Ms G c a b a s h e ?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r a ffi d a v it , t h e o n e I’ m r e a d i n g f r o m ?

Ye s s ir.

J a s a m e a ffi d a v it t h a t w e h a v e b e e n l o o k i n g a t , p a g e

2 3 9 o f H H 1 0 , t h e o n e t h a t h a s g o t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 , t h a t w e w e r e d e a li n g
w i t h a li t tl e e a r li e r, p a g e 2 3 9 t h e r e d n u m b e r s n o t t h e b l a c k n u m b e r s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

I ’ m s tr u g g li n g C h a i r b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s

b e e n a d i v i d e r h e r e , i t e n d s i n 2 3 5 … [ i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I t h i n k M s M o l e fe w i ll h e l p y o u – y o u h a v e g o t

it ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

O k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o M r Th a b e t h e , i f y o u r e a d t h e fir s t

t h r e e l in e s o f p a r a g r a p h 1 2 y o u w il l f i n d th a t y o u s a y t h a t y o u i n fo r m e d

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h e C E O o f P a r a s th a t a n y i n v e s t m e n t s h o u l d b e th r o u g h a S o u t h
A fr ic a n c o m p a n y w h e n y o u w e r e t o u r in g th e Vr e d e a r e a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a s k e d y o u e a r l ie r o n if y o u h a d

m e n ti o n e d th e s a m e is s u e t o M r K u m a r w h e n y o u w e r e in I n d i a , a n d y o u
said yes.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I’ m n o t s u r e i f I

h a d t o c a p t u r e b o t h o f t h e m , th a t I h a d s a i d i t o n b o th s i d e b u t w h a t w e
h a v e in d ic a t e d h e r e i s , t h a t w h e n h e w a s h e r e w e ’ v e in d ic a t e d t o h i m .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M u c h a s t h is i s n ’ t w r i t t e n i n t h e m o s t

e l e g a n t E n g li s h , w i t h a ll d u e r e s p e c t , w h a t’s w r it t e n h e r e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I s t u d i e d b a n tu e d u c a ti o n , t h e

E n g l is h t h a t I m ig h t h a v e w r i t te n h e r e , m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n th e b e s t
E n g l is h .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I d o u b t w h e t h e r M s G c a b a s h e i n te n d e d t o s a y

a n y th in g

the

about

q u a l i ty

of

your

E n g l is h ,

I

doubt

if

s h e … [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t ’s th e c o n s tr u c t io n , t h e f o r m u la t e d h e r e

c h a ir, a n d a l l I’ m s a y i n g i s , w h e n o n e r e a d s t h i s , M r T h a b e t h e , i t ’s g o t
20

n o t h i n g t o d o w i th B a n tu e d u c a ti o n , w h e n o n e r e a d s t h is , y o u a r e l e f t
w i t h th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t i t i s w h e n th e P a r a s D a ir y C E O w a s in f o r m e d ,
it is o n ly th e n w h e n h e w a s h e r e o n t o u r … [ in t e r v e n t i o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

No,

no,

no

Ms

Gcabashe

you

referred

E n g l is h … [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I r e a d i t to y o u C h a ir m a n ?

Page 84 of 187

to

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o h a n g o n , y o u r e fe r r e d t o E n g li s h , a n d t h e –

h is a n s w e r s u g g e s t s t h a t h e u n d e r s t o o d f r o m w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t
y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t th e E n g l is h u s e d , w a s r e l e v a n t t o w h e t h e r i t s a y s
w h a t h e is s a y i n g o r n o t a n d h e th e r e f o r e s a i d , l o o k I s t u d i e d B a n t u
e d u c a ti o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n c a n I r e a d t h e s e n t e n c e i n to

t h e r e c o r d , a s i t is w r it t e n h e r e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

T h is i s t h e r e le v a n t s e n te n c e , i t is

preceded by context.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja just read it.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Th a b e t h e , t h i s is w h a t ’s w r i t t e n h e r e ,

“ I t is w h e n t h a t, t h e P a r a s D a ir y C E O w a s in f o r m e d t h a t h is
in t e r e s t o f i n v e s t m e n t i n S o u t h A fr ic a s h o u ld b e t h r o u g h a S o u th A f r ic a n
r e g is t e r e d c o m p a n y ” ,
W h a t s h o u ld r e a lly, o n m y i n t e r p r e ta t io n b e r e f l e c te d h e r e o r
r e c o r d e d h e r e is ,
“ I t is t h e n , n o t w h e n – i t is t h e n th a t th e P a r a s C E O ” ,
S o i t ’s t h a t c o n f u s io n t h a t a r i s e s fr o m t h e u s e o f th e “ i t is
20

w h e n ” a s o p p o s e d t o “ i t is t h e n ” b e c a u s e my i n t e r p r e ta t io n is , “i t is
t h e n ” , a n d t h is is w h y I s a y i t w a s n o t d r a f t e d p a r t ic u l a r ly e l e g a n tly, a r e
y o u w i th m e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I s t il l t h a n k t h a t Mr T h a b e t h e w a s – i t w a s

le g i t i m a te f o r h i m t o m e n ti o n w h a t h e m e n ti o n e d , s o m a y b e i t ’s h o w –
you might not have intended what he said, but I think maybe what

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s h o u l d h a p p e n i s , p u t to h i m , w h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h i s t o m e a n a n d l e t
h i m a n s w e r w i t h o u t a n y r e fe r e n c e t o E n g l is h , m a y b e w e ’ll m a k e
p r o g r e s s i f w e d o i t t h a t w a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I b e li e v e I ’v e n o w d o n e t h a t C h a ir m a n .

J a w e l l d o y o u s til l n e e d a n a n s w e r fr o m h i m ?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I s ti ll n e e d a n a n s w e r fr o m h i m .

J a I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e q u e s t io n w a s , s o d o

y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e q u e s ti o n w a s M r Th a b e t h e , d o a n s w e r if y o u
do?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir, I h a d a n s w e r e d i t b y

s a y in g th a t w e h a d in d ic a t e d w h e n w e w e r e i n I n d i a a n d a ls o w h e n w e
were here.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u g o o n t o s a y, M r T h a b e t h e , in th e

next sentence,
“ I n t h e d is c u s s i o n a p r o p o s a l o f s i g n i n g a n a g r e e m e n t w it h t h e
S o u th A f r ic a n c o m p a n y w a s p u t f o r w a r d t o P a r a s , P a r a s D a i r y h a d t o
d e v e l o p a p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l w h i c h w a s p r e s e n t e d th r o u g h t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n o w n e d c o m p a n y ” ,
20

S o m y q u e s ti o n is , th a t s e c o n d l e g o f th e d is c u s s i o n , d i d i t
t a k e p la c e in I n d i a a n d in S o u t h A f r ic a ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir n o w t h i s i s a n a ffi d a v it t h a t I

h a d s i g n e d w a y a f te r, w h ic h I w a s n a r r a t in g , w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d , s o
h e r e I w a s e x p la in i n g w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d n o t … [ i n te r v e n t io n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d , le t m e j u s t g o b a c k , w a s t h e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
q u e s t io n w h e n s o m e th i n g h a p p e n e d ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s f u r t h e r d is c u s s io n , y e s C h a i r m a n .

Ye s s o , I t h i n k y o u m a y b e w a n t in g t o e x p l a i n

s o m e t h i n g b u t t h e q u e s ti o n i s w h e n a n d t h e a n s w e r m ig h t b e b e f o r e th is
a n d th a t h a p p e n e d o r a f t e r t h i s a n d t h a t h a p p e n e d a n d t h e n if y o u a r e
t h e n a s k e d w h y, y o u s a id t h a t th e n y o u c a n e x p l a i n i f i t ’s n e c e s s a r y, s o
t h e q u e s t i o n is a b o u t w h e n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

C a n s h e r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n C h a ir ?

Ye s o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e p a r a g r a p h – t h e s e n t e n c e th a t I

r e a d , r e f e r s t o d is c u s s i o n s th a t t o o k p la c e a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e
e i t h e r t o u r i n g th e Vr e d e a r e a o r a r o u n d th a t t i m e , a r e y o u a g r e e d w i th
that?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

R i g h t, th e n th e q u e s ti o n w a s , t h e s e

f u r th e r d is c u s s i o n s o n th e S o u t h A f r i c a n c o m p a n y d i d th e y t a k e p l a c e ,
b o t h i n In d ia a n d i n S o u th A fr ic a ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir t h e d i s c u s s io n o n a S o u t h

A fr ic a n c o m p a n y, e i th e r b e i n g th e m r e g is te r i n g o r b r i n g in g a n o t h e r
20

c o u n tr y t o o k p l a c e w h e n w e w e r e i n I n d ia a n d w h e n w e w e r e h e r e .
W h a t w e d i d w h e n w e w e r e h e r e w e e m p h a s i s e s a f te r h e h a s r a is e d h i s
in t e r e s t , w e th e n e m p h a s is e d o n i t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u g o o n to s a y – I’ m j u s t tr y i n g to

m a k e p r o g r e s s , r e a l ly M r Th a b e t h e , fu r t h e r d o w n i n th e s a m e p a r a g r a p h
t h a t th e P a r a s C E O l e f t t h e c o u n t r y a n d a t s o m e t i m e a p p e a r e d E s ti n a

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
c o m p a n y, p le a s e t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir a f t e r th e C E O o f P a r a s l e f t , th e

c o m p a n y c a l le d Es t in a c a m e to d is c u s s w i t h u s t h a t th e y h a v e b e e n
a p p o i n t e d , o r th e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h P a r a s , th e y w o u l d w a n t to t a k e th e
e n g a g e m e n t f u r th e r. I t h e n s a i d to t h e m t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m b u t I n e e d
c o n fir m a t io n fr o m t h e m t h a t t h e y a r e a c o m p a n y th a t h a d a g r e e d w it h
P a r a s t h a t w e ’r e g o in g to in t e r a c t w i t h , t h a t ’s w h a t I d i d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s a n d th e n y o u a s k e d f o r w r i t t e n

c o n fir m a t io n ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

D i d y o u g e t t h a t w r i t t e n c o n fir m a t i o n ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I d i d g e t a n a g r e e m e n t th a t w a s

s ig n e d b e tw e e n t h e t w o c o m p a n ie s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A g a i n c a n I r e f e r y o u t o a n o th e r

m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g ? T h is o n e y o u w il l f in d i n t h e r e f e r e n c e
b u n d l e A , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n 2 8 4 … [ in t e r v e n ti o n ].
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k h e w a s n o t p a y i n g a t te n ti o n w h e n y o u

m e n ti o n e d th e p a g e , i t’s r e f e r e n c e b u n d le A a n d p a g e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 2 8 4 C h a ir m a n .

2 8 4 , g iv e i t t o m e I’ ll fi n d t h e p a g e , t h a n k y o u .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is th is t h e a g r e e m e n t – w h a t y o u c a ll a n

a g r e e m e n t – t h is m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t’s t h e to p n u m b e r, y o u h a v e tw o n u m b e r s p a g e

n u m b e r s b u t it ’s t h e to p o n e t h e y ’ r e b o t h b l a c k t h i s ti m e , h a v e y o u
f o u n d i t?

Page 88 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’v e g o t it C h a ir.

O k a y, a lr i g h t, 2 8 4 , o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is th is t h e d o c u m e n t y o u ’ r e r e f e r r i n g to ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h is w a s n o t t h e fir s t d o c u m e n t

I g o t , t h is w a s a c o n f ir m a t io n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n e n t e r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h i s i s n o t t h e c o n fir m a t i o n t h a t y o u h a d a s k e d

f o r a n d r e c e iv e d , t h i s w a s a l a te r a g r e e m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o M P T 11 is a c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t

document?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

There should be another document

C h a ir, w h e r e – th a t s a y s , w e c o n f ir m t h a t E s ti n a is t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w e
w i ll w o r k w i t h , s o t h e r e s h o u l d b e tw o d o c u m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u ld i t b e a le t t e r o r a n a g r e e m e n t ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s a l e t t e r ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I t ’s a l e t t e r C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir.

O h o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o g a v e y o u t h a t le t t e r Mr T h a b e t h e ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h e l e t te r w a s g iv e n to u s b y

E s ti n a .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u a s k P a r a s f o r th a t c o n f ir m a ti o n ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A f te r I ’v e r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r w e th e n

c h e c k e d w i th P a r a s w h o w il l p r o v i d e u s w i t h t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f E s ti n a ,

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s o th e y c o n fir m e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o th e y c o n f ir m e d t h a t, w h a t t h e y h a d

a s k e d Es t in a to g i v e y o u a le t t e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e y h a d c o n fir m e d t h a t t h e y a r e –

t h e p a r tn e r c o m p a n y i n S o u t h A fr ic a is E s t in a . S o t h e n E s ti n a w r o t e t o
u s to c o n fir m t h a t th is i s t h e c o m p a n y o f p r e fe r e n c e b y P a r a s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o t h a t l e t t e r fr o m E s t i n a w a s e m a i le d t o

you?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

I don’t remember how it was received

C h a ir, w h e t h e r i t w a s – I c a n ’ t r e c a ll n o w b u t w e d i d r e c e iv e a le t t e r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I ’ m t r y i n g t o g e t d o c u m e n t s fr o m th e

Department because you do not have the access that we have and this
is w h y w e a s k , b e c a u s e I w a n t to c o n t a c t t h e d e p a r t m e n t f o r t h e s e
d o c u m e n ts … [ i n t e r v e n t i o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s h e c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r, h e c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r if i t w a s

e m a i l e d o r s e n t o r h a n d d e l iv e r e d o r s e n t b y p o s t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

Ye s b u t th e r e i s a l e t t e r C h a ir th a t

w e r e c e iv e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

Yo u , i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 , t a lk a b o u t a

v e r i fic a ti o n e x e r c i s e t h a t w a s d o n e … [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Are we back at 239?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e ’r e b a c k a t 2 3 9 C h a ir m a n , p a r a g r a p h

13.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Page 239, paragraph 13.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u d o a d u e d il ig e n c e o n e x a c tl y

what Estina (Pty) was?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir w h a t w e c h e c k e d w h e t h e r t h e

c o m p a n y, i n d e e d , w a s r e g is t e r e d in S o u t h A fr ic a .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Can I ask you to stop, don’t forget the

n e x t p o in t , h o w d i d y o u g o a b o u t d o i n g t h a t , w h a t d o c u m e n t d id y o u a s k
f o r i n c h e c k i n g t h a t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:
10

C h a ir w e h a v e a s y s t e m i n

G o v e r n m e n t , w e c h e c k i t o u r s e lv e s , w e g o i n to t h e r e g i s t e r o f
c o m p a n i e s a n d w e g o i n th e r e a n d c h e c k e a c h c o m p a n y a n d w e d o
c o n fir m a t io n b y d o in g s o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C o n ti n u e , s o th e f ir s t t h i n g y o u d id w a s ,

y o u d id a c h e c k t h r o u g h y o u r s y s t e m ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s a n d w e a ls o c h e c k e d c o m p li a n c e

t o t a x b e c a u s e w e m a y n o t i n te r a c t w it h a c o m p a n y t h a t i s n o t
r e g is t e r e d , s o t h e t w o k e y d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e p u ll e d fr o m th e s y s t e m i s
y o u r c o n f ir m a ti o n f o r c o m p a n y r e g i s t r a t io n w it h c o m p a n y n u m b e r a n d
a ls o t h e b u s i n e s s o f th e c o m p a n y, th a t it d o e s , t h a t w il l b e i n th e
20

c o m p a n y r e g is tr a t i o n .

T h e n w e g o in t o t h e ta x s y s t e m , w e c h e c k t h e

c o m p li a n c e o f t h a t p a r tic u la r c o m p a n y a n d t h o s e a r e th e t w o e x e r c is e s
that we do.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o y o u w e r e a b l e to e s t a b l is h th a t t h e

b u s i n e s s o f E s ti n a w a s t h e b u s in e s s o f c a r r y i n g o n c o m m e r c i a l ,
in d u s tr i a l b u s i n e s s , s e r v ic e s , s a l e s a n d s u p p o r t , t h i s y o u w i ll fi n d ,

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C h a ir m a n , in E s ti n a ’s m e m o r a n d u m o f a s s o c i a ti o n w h i c h is i n t h e C o u r t
r e c o r d s a t p a g e 5 6 5 a n d 5 6 6 – C o u r t r e c o r d , s o i t ’s t h e C o u r t r e c o r d
fi le B , f o r B e r n a r d , C o u r t r e c o r d f il e B , 5 6 6 h a s t h e m a i n b u s i n e s s o f
t h e c o m p a n y. D o n ’ t g o – y o u ’r e g o in g t o o f a r Mr T h a b e t h e , I ’ m p e e p i n g
fr o m t h i s s i d e . S o th e fi r s t d o c u m e n t y o u h a v e t h e r e is t h e c e r ti f ic a t e
o f i n c o r p o r a ti o n , a m I r ig h t , w h a t y o u h a v e th e r e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir 5 6 5 is t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f

association.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Ye s c o r r e c t , t h e n w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t

t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t , c o n t i n u e to … [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ].
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B u t t h i s is n o t th e c o m p a n y y o u g e t

fr o t h e s y s t e m , t h i s is n o t t h e d o c u m e n t y o u g e t f r o m t h e s y s te m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y m a y b e y o u s h o u ld t e ll m e w h a t y o u g o t f r o m

the system?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

T h e c o m p a n y r e g is tr a ti o n d o c u m e n t

it t e l ls y o u t h e n a m e o f th e c o m p a n y, t h e d ir e c t o r, w h a t is i t r e g is t e r e d
f o r, i t ’s th e – I’ m j u s t tr y in g t o g e t t h e c o r r e c t n a m e , i t’s t h e
C I P R O … [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

CIPRO document – CIPRO?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Ye s .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s t h e d o c u m e n t I ’ m r e f e r r in g t o

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t d o c u m e n t t o ld y o u w h a t a b o u t t h e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
business of the company?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t i n d i c a t e d t h a t th e c o m p a n y w a s

r e g is t e r e d f o r a g r i c u l tu r e , f a r m in g a n d r e l a te d a c ti v i ti e s , I t h i n k t h e r e ’s
a c o p y C h a ir, o n p a g e 5 8 6 .
CHAIRPERSON:

586?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y, y e s , t h e m a i n b u s i n e s s , m a i n o b j e c t ,

a g r ic u lt u r e , f a r m i n g a n d r e l a t e d a c t iv i ti e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Yo u a r e a w a r e t h a t w h e n t h i s c o m p a n y

w a s r e g i s te r e d , i t w a s r e g is te r e d a s a c o m m e r c i a l c o m p a n y, w h a t I’ d
r e a d o u t e a r li e r a n d t h a t it t h e n c h a n g e d , n o t o n ly th e d ir e c t o r s b u t i t ’s
m a in b u s i n e s s in o r a b o u t – a n d I ’ m d o in g t h i s f r o m m e m o r y, O c t o b e r
2 0 1 2 , I c a n s i m p ly c o n f ir m i t b u t fr o m m e m o r y, h a v i n g r e a d t h e s e
p a p e r s , O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 b u t b e fo r e O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 i t w a s a c o m m e r c ia l
c o m p a n y d o i n g b u s i n e s s , d o in g – i t h a d n o th in g t o d o w i th a g r ic u lt u r e ,
w o u ld y o u d is p u t e t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I w o u l d n o t b u t t h e d o c u m e n t

in fr o n t o f m e t e lls m e s o m e t h i n g d i ffe r e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s m a y b e t h e q u e s ti o n – m a y b e l e t ’s s a y t h is , t h i s

document was it, in 2012, that you found it, you got it in the system?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r f o r u s to b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h

a n y c o m p a n y i n G o v e r n m e n t, w e h a d t o d e a l – b e c a u s e th e f ir s t t h i n g
t h a t y o u d o , y o u c o ll e c t d o c u m e n ta t io n b e c a u s e y o u m u s t r e g is te r t h e m
in t o t h e s y s t e m i n t e r m s o f Tr e a s u r y, s o y o u c o l l e c t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n
t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e y e n t e r i n to t h e G o v e r n m e n t d a t a b a s e , s o y o u

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c a n n o t d e a l w i t h t h e m u n l e s s y o u h a v e r e g is t e r e d th e m i n t o y o u r
d a t a b a s e , s o y o u w il l n e e d t h e s e d o c u m e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t , b u t t h a t w a s n ’ t my q u e s t io n ,
I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n g iv i n g e v id e n c e s in c e y e s te r d a y, s o n o , n o m y q u e s ti o n is , w h e n w a s i t w h e n y o u g o t t h is d o c u m e n t fr o m
y o u r s y s t e m o r fr o m C I P R O , i t w a s i n 2 0 1 2 , is n ’t i t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s i n 2 0 1 2 C h a ir.

J a w h e r e a b o u t i n t e r m s o f m o n th , I’ m n o t

n e c e s s a r i ly t a lk in g a b o u t d a te s , j u s t t h e m o n t h ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I w o u l d n o t C h a ir – b e c a u s e I d o n o t

d ir e c t ly d e a l w it h i t , it ’s th e s u p p l y c h a i n p a r t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t th a t
d e a ls w i th i t, s o t h e y d o th a t a n d t h e n t h e y c o m p il e t h o s e d o c u m e n ts ,
t h e y d o n ’t n e c e s s a r i ly b r i n g i t t o m e t o s a y, t h is is w h a t w e h a v e d o n e
b e c a u s e i t is p a r t o f t h e e x e r c is e t h a t th e y d o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir c a n I b e o f a s s is t a n c e , i n t e r m o f

t h e M O U th a t h e s a y s fo ll o w e d o n a f t e r h e r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r a n d
p r e s u m a b ly a ft e r h e d id t h e v e r i fi c a t io n e x e r c is e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h ju s t p u t t h a t t o h i m s o t h a t … [ in t e r v e n t i o n ] .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

S o y o u w o u l d h a v e c h e c k e d o n o r tr i e d

t o v e r if y w h o E s t in a w a s , a f te r y o u r e c e iv e d t h e l e t te r fr o m E s ti n a
s a y in g t h a t P a r a s i s p a r tn e r, a f te r y o u h a d s e e n t h a t th e M O U b e tw e e n
E s ti n a a n d P a r a s h a d b e e n s ig n e d , t h e o n e th a t y o u s a i d w a s n o t th e
fir s t M O U , y e s o r n o ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a i r y o u d o th a t a f t e r y o u h a v e
r e c e i v e d th e c o n fir m a t io n th a t th is i s t h e c o m p a n y t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
b e w o r k i n g w i th .

Th e n y o u g o a n d y o u c h e c k th e m in t o t h e s y s t e m .

T h e n i f t h e r e is a p r o b l e m i n t h e s y s t e m t h e n y o u w o u l d k n o w b e c a u s e
t h e y w il l c o m e b a c k to t e ll y o u lo o k t h is c o m p a n y i s n o t r e g i s t e r e d . O r
t h is c o m p a n y is n o t t a x c o m p l i a n t . T h e n t h a t i s t h e d u e d i li g e n c e t h a t
we have to do.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I simply want to point you Chairman and
Mr Thabethe you too to page 563 of the Court Record. 563 of the same
Court Record.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h i c h is a n o tic e o f m e e ti n g a n d i t r e a d s
a s fo ll o w s :
“ E s ti n a

Pr o p r i e t a r y

Limited

R e g is t r a ti o n

number

2 0 0 8 /0 1 5 0 3 3 /0 7 . P l e a s e ta k e n o t ic e t h a t a m e e ti n g o f t h e
m e m b e r s o f th e a b o v e c o m p a n y w i ll b e h e ld a t t h e
r e g is t e r e d o ffic e s o f 1 4 4 C a t h e r i n e S tr e e t, Bl o c k A A , F ir s t
fl o o r G r a y s t o n R i d g e O ff ic e P a r k , S a n d to n a t 8 : 3 0 to
c o n s i d e r th e f o ll o w i n g r e s o l u ti o n .
1 . T h a t t h e m a in b u s i n e s s – th a t t h e m a i n b u s in e s s a n d
m a in o b j e c t b e c h a n g e d t o a g r ic u l t u r e , f a r mi n g a n d
20

r e l a t e d a c ti v i t ie s .
2 . T h e c h a n g e o f t h e r e g is t e r e d o ffi c e t o b e 1 4 4
C a t h e r i n e S tr e e t, B l o c k A , F ir s t F lo o r G r a y s to n
R i d g e O ff ic e P a r k , S a n d to n , 2 1 4 6 d a t e d a t S a n d t o n
o n th is [ b l a n k ] d a y o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 s i g n e d b y M r
K a m a l Va s r a m . ”

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:
t h is .

I t h in k m a y b e l e t u s – m a y b e j u s t t o g o s t r a ig h t t o

It w o u ld a p p e a r t h a t p r i o r t o O c t o b e r E s ti n a c o u ld n o t h a v e –

E s ti n a ’s b u s in e s s o r m a i n b u s i n e s s c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n r e g i s te r e d a s
a g r ic u lt u r e , f a r m i n g a n d r e l a t e d a c t iv i ti e s i f th is d o c u m e n t i s tr u e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is tr u e th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a c c e p t th a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a c c e p t i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a v e s a id th a t y o u d i d n o t s e e th e d o c u m e n t
a t 5 8 6 y o u r s e l f it w a s o t h e r p e o p le w h o w o u l d h a v e lo o k e d a t w h a t e v e r
10

d o c u m e n t n e e d e d t o b e l o o k e d a t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e q u e s t io n t h a t a r i s e s is w h e t h e r y o u w e r e to ld
b y a n y b o d y t h a t E s ti n a ’s b u s i n e s s w a s in t h e a g r ic u l t u r a l s e c t o r a t t h e
ti m e th e c h e c k i n g h a d to b e d o n e to fi n d o u t w h o is E s t i n a a n d w h a t d o
they do?

W e r e y o u to l d b y s o m e b o d y th a t o r w e r e y o u n o t t o l d

s o m e b o d y t h a t o r w e r e y o u to l d s o m e t h in g e ls e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o I w a s n o t to ld C h a ir t h e b u s i n e s s
20

o f t h e c o m p a n y b u t t h e c o m p l ia n c e h a d t o b e c h e c k e d i f th e r e w a s a
p r o b le m w i t h t h e c o m p l ia n c e th e n I w o u l d h a v e b e e n to l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – b u t w e r e y o u t o l d a n y th in g a b o u t w h e t h e r i t w a s
tax compliant?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u to ld o r w e r e y o u n o t t o ld a b o u t t h a t p a r t ?

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M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e – t h e y w o u l d t e l l y o u i f i t is
n o t c o m p li a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i f t h e y d id n o t t e l l y o u a n y t h i n g i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t
it is c o m p l i a n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is c o m p l ia n t y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t d i d y o u – w e r e y o u n o t i n t e r e s te d i n

u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t E s ti n a ’s b u s i n e s s o r m a i n b u s in e s s is a f t e r y o u h a d
b e e n t o ld t h a t t h e y w o u l d b e i n v o lv e d in y o u r D e p a r t m e n t ’s p r o j e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t r e a ll y C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y w o u l d y o u n o t b e i n t e r e s te d i n t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir m y i n t e r e s t w a s i n P a r a s

b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h e r e t h e e x p e r ti s e is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : E s ti n a w a s b e in g u s e d a s a c o m p a n y
that is local.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
with.

T h a t I w o u l d th e n b e a b l e t o d e a l

B e c a u s e m y in t e r e s t w a s w h ic h I h a d v e r i fi e d w a s P a r a s . P a r a s

w a s u s i n g E s ti n a i f I m a y m e n ti o n i t a s a c o n d u i t t o b e a b l e to d o
20

b u s i n e s s in S o u th A fr ic a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE: That has been my key understanding
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u o n ly i n te r e s t i n E s ti n a w a s w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e
tax compliant?

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M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th in g e l s e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e e x p e r t is e t h a t I w a n t e d w a s i n

Paras.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t t h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d i n y o u w e r e n o t

in t e r e s te d r e a l ly t h a t is E s ti n a ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t r e a ll y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e p e o p le w h o w e r e d o in g i ll e g a l
t h i n g s a n d s o o n y o u w e r e n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n t e r m s o f t h e ir b u s i n e s s ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir it i s a v e r y d i ffic u lt o n e to

answer but…
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I a m i n t e r e s te d .

Yo u a r e t h e h e a d o f a

government department.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t – t h is g o v e r n m e n t

department wants to engage in a very important project.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h a s i d e n t i fi e d a c o m p a n y f a r a w a y in In d ia a s th e

o n e th a t th e y w a n t to b e in v o lv e d w it h b u t i t is n e c e s s a r y t h a t t h e y
20

s h o u l d b e a l o c a l c o m p a n y w it h w h ic h t h a t I n d i a n c o m p a n y g e t s
in v o lv e d . A n d I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t th a t t o s a y th e l e a s t y o u w o u l d b e
in t e r e s te d i n w h e t h e r t h i s c o m p a n y is i n v o lv e d in th e s a m e s e c t o r a n d
e v e n i f i t is in v o lv e d in t h e s a m e s e c to r w h a t e x p e r i e n c e t h e y – t h e y
h a v e a n d w h a t ty p e o f c o m p a n y a r e t h e y a n d h o w a r e t h e y r u n , w h o a r e
t h e ir d i r e c t o r s ? W i l l y o u b e d e a l in g w it h a c r e d ib l e c o m p a n y ? W i l l y o u

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b e d e a li n g w i t h c r e d i b l e p e o p l e w h o r u n t h is c o m p a n y a s a P r o v i n c ia l
G o v e r n m e n t ? W il l y o u r a s s o c ia t io n – w il l t h e P r o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t ’s
a s s o c i a t i o n w it h t h i s l o c a l c o m p a n y n o t e m b a r r a s s th e g o v e r n m e n t ?

I

w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w o u l d b e i n te r e s t e d i n t h o s e t y p e s o f
t h i n g s t h a t is w h y I a m a s k i n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: J a t h a n k s C h a ir. W e h a v e n o t d o n e it
b e c a u s e w e h a d n e v e r d o n e i t w it h a n y o th e r c o m p a n y t h a t w e h a v e
b e e n d e a li n g w i th . W e h a v e b e e n d e a l in g w i t h c o m p a n i e s w e h a d n e v e r
g o n e t o t h a t e x te n t o f r e s e a r c h i n g r e q u i r e m e n t s w e r e t h a t y o u c h e c k
10

c o m p li a n c e . S o w e – i t d i d n o t c o m e t h a t w e n e e d to d o th a t b e c a u s e
w e h a d n e v e r e n g a g e d i n t h a t e x e r c is e b e f o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u – w h a t y o u a r e c o n f ir m i n g is t h a t e v e n i f th e y
w e r e n o t – th e ir b u s i n e s s w a s n o t i n t h e a g r i c u l tu r a l s e c t o r y o u d i d n o t
m i n d g e t t in g t h e m i n v o l v e d i n th is a g r ic u l t u r a l p r o j e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e th e y w e r e n o t my
m a in f o c u s . I j u s t n e e d e d t h e m s o t h a t w h e n – w h e n w e – i f I m a y u s e
a n e x a m p le ? I f w e li ti g a te w e li t ig a t e a l o c a l c o m p a n y i f w e h a v e g o t
p r o b le m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u d o n o t c h e c k w h a t t h e y d o o t h e r t h a n w h e th e r

20

t h e y a r e t a x c o m p l ia n t w h e t h e r th e y a r e a c r e d i b l e c o m p a n y, w h e t h e r
t h e y – t h e y a r e r u n b y c r e d i b l e p e o p l e y o u m ig h t li ti g a te w i th a n e n t it y
t h a t r e a ll y y o u d o n o t – y o u s h o u ld n o t e v e n b e in v o lv e d w it h b e c a u s e
o f t h e ty p e o f b u s i n e s s t h e y d o o r t h e ty p e o f p e o p l e w h o r u n i t. A n d
y o u m ig h t l i ti g a t e a n d fi n d t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t n o t h in g . Yo u m i g h t h a v e
lo s t a l o t o f m o n e y a n d n o w y o u l it i g a t e t o – a g a i n s t t h e m t o r e c o v e r

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a n y th in g f in d t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t n o th i n g b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t d o y o u r
homework.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir w e h a d n e v e r g o n e i n to th e e x e r c i s e
b e f o r e . T h a t i s w h y it is v e r y d i ffic u lt f o r m e t o r e s p o n d . B e c a u s e w e
h a d n o t d o n e i t b e f o r e a n d i t h a s n e v e r b e e n a r e q u ir e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t p u t a s i d e w h a t a r e q u ir e m e n t is d o e s i t n o t

m a k e s e n s e th a t y o u w o u l d n e e d to d o t h a t .

I mean if you as Mr

T h a b e th e w a n t e d t o g e t i n t o b u s in e s s w it h s o m e b o d y a n d y o u w e r e
g o i n g t o p u t a l o t o f y o u r o w n m o n e y in t o a c e r t a in p r o je c t w o u l d y o u
10

n o t w a n t t o d o s o m e h o m e w o r k o n – o n a p e r s o n t h a t w a s g o in g to b e
y o u r p a r t n e r ? W o u l d y o u n o t w a n t t o d o t h a t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y w h a t ty p e o f p e r s o n is t h i s ? W i ll I b e t a in t e d i f
I a m a s s o c ia t e d w it h h i m o r h e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a m y r e s p o n s e C h a i r w o u ld b e w e

h a d d e a l t w i t h c o m p a n i e s i n S o u t h A fr ic a b u t w e h a d d o n e t h a t
research.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u a r e n o t a n s w e r i n g m y q u e s t io n .

Would

y o u a s M r Th a b e t h e i f y o u w e r e w a n ti n g to g o o n a b u s in e s s p r o j e c t
20

and you were going to put your own money and a lot of your money in it
w o u ld y o u n o t w a n t t o d o a p r o p e r c h e c k o n a n y b o d y t h a t w o u l d b e y o u r
p a r t n e r i n t h a t p r o j e c t b e f o r e y o u s i g n e d a d e a l t o – to h a v e th a t p e r s o n
in t o y o u r p r o j e c t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a m n o t a b l e t o r e s p o n d to t h e

q u e s t io n C h a ir. I – b e c a u s e I …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a r e y o u n o t a b l e – w e ll e i th e r – y o u c a n te ll m e
t h a t n o , n o a s M r T h a b e th e I a m – if I w a n t t o g o i n to b u s in e s s a n d I
w o u ld j u s t g o i n t o b u s in e s s w it h a n y b o d y I w o u l d n o t d o a n y c h e c k . I
w o u ld n o t c h e c k w h e t h e r t h i s p e r s o n is c r e d i b l e . I w o u l d n o t c h e c k i f
t h is p e r s o n h a s s p e n t t e n y e a r s in p r is o n f o r fr a u d a n d s o o n . I w o u ld
ju s t g o i n t o b u s in e s s .

I f t h a t is w h a t y o u d o y o u m u s t t e ll m e th a t is

what you do.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair I have…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u ld n o t c h e c k i f t h is p e r s o n o w n s a n y p r o p e r ty. I
10

w o u ld n o t c h e c k a n y th i n g i f w e lo s e m o n e y b e c a u s e o f d e c is i o n s t h a t
h e m a k e s o r th i n g s th a t h e d o e s i n t h e p r o j e c t a n d I n e e d t o r e c o v e r
m o n e y fr o m h i m h e w o u l d h a v e n o t h i n g .

H e d o e s n o t o w n a n y t h in g .

Yo u m u s t t e l l m e t h a t is h o w y o u w o u l d d o – d o i t if t h a t is h o w y o u
w o u ld d o i t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir p e r s o n a l ly i n m y b u s in e s s

w h ic h I m i g h t h a v e d o n e i t . I h a v e n e v e r d o n e i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w h a t I w a n t h e r e M r T h a b e th e is y o u r

a s s e s s m e n t o f w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e b e f o r e c e r t a i n d e c is i o n s a r e
t a k e n b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r i n t h e e x a m p le t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t i f y o u
20

w e r e g o i n g to g o in t o b u s i n e s s a s M r T h a b e th e y o u w o u ld b e n e e d i n g to
protect yourself.

Yo u w o u l d b e n e e d i n g t o p r o t e c t y o u r m o n e y.

Yo u

w o u ld b e n e e d i n g to p r o t e c t m a y b e e v e n y o u r f a m i ly in t e r m s o f
fi n a n c i a l s e c u r i ty.

Here you are using tax payers’ money you are the

head of a department.

Yo u h a v e p o w e r t o u s e m i lli o n s o f t a x p a y e r s ’

m o n e y. Yo u a r e p u t in t h a t p o s i ti o n a s h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e y o u

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m u s t b e s o m e b o d y w h o h a s a c e r t a in l e v e l o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h in g s .
A c e r ta in l e v e l o f e x p e r i e n c e m a y b e j u s t i n li f e b u t a ls o a b o u t w h a t t h e
d e p a r t m e n t is a b o u t , a g r i c u l tu r e a n d y o u h a v e g o t y o u k n o w d e g r e e s i n
a g r ic u lt u r e . C a n y o u b e tr u s t e d to m a k e t h e r i g h t d e c i s i o n s a n d t o d o
t h e r i g h t t h in g s b e f o r e d e c is io n s a r e m a d e i n o r d e r t o p r o t e c t ta x
p a y e r s ’ m o n e y t h a t is w h a t i t i s a b o u t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

In government

t h e r e a r e r e g u la t io n s o n h o w d o y o u g o a b o u t d o i n g t h a t a n d w e l i m it
o u r s e lv e s t o t h a t a n d t h a t is w h a t w e d i d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: So – so you
1 . Yo u d i d n o t d o a n y s u c h c h e c k a n d b e c a u s e y o u b e li e v e t h a t i t
w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y to d o t h e c h e c k – t h a t k in d o f c h e c k .
Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o , n o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t is i m p o r ta n t th a t y o u m u s t – y o u m u s t s a y i f w h a t
I a m s a y i n g I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e t h a t y o u s h o u l d s a y n o ,
n o t h a t is n o t w h a t I a m s a y i n g . Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s I a m n o t s a y in g it w a s n o t

n e c e s s a r y C h a ir I a m s a y i n g i t w a s n o t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u s e e s o m e t i m e s t h e l a w a n d g o v e r n m e n t

a n d r e g u l a ti o n s p u t r e q u ir e m e n ts b u t s o m e ti m e s p a r t ic u l a r ly w h e n y o u
a r e in a s e n i o r p o s i ti o n t h e p e o p l e o f S o u t h A fr ic a m u s t tr u s t th a t y o u
h a v e th e r i g h t j u d g m e n t t o s a y ju s t c o m p l y in g w i th th e s e r e q u ir e m e n ts
is n o t e n o u g h . I m u s t a s k fo r m o r e p a r ti c u l a r ly w h e n t h e r e is a l o t o f
t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y t h a t m a y b e p u t i n to s o m e t h i n g .

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M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: I h e a r y o u C h a ir. M y d i ff ic u l ty i s t h a t
I c o u l d n o t s e t m y o w n r e q u ir e m e n ts I h a d t o liv e w i t h i n w h a t h a s b e e n
g iv e n .

H e n c e w e c o u ld n o t g o b e y o n d t h a t b e c a u s e th e d i ffic u lt y i n

g o v e r n m e n t y o u d o le s s y o u h a v e a p r o b l e m . Yo u d o m o r e y o u h a v e a
p r o b le m . Yo u h a v e t o s t a y w i t h i n t h e l in e d o w h a t is e x p e c t e d o f y o u .
S o y o u n e v e r k n o w w h e n y o u w i ll b e w r o n g w h e t h e r d o in g m o r e o r
d o i n g le s s s o i t i s b e tt e r t o s ta y w i th in w h a t y o u a r e r e q u i r e d to d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o le t u s g o b a c k t o n e c e s s a r y. Yo u s a id y o u d i d
n o t s a y i t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y y o u s a i d i t w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t . As y o u
10

s t a n d h e r e , a s y o u s it t h e r e n o w d o y o u s a y i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o h a v e
d o n e th e k i n d o f c h e c k t h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t o r d o y o u s a y i t w a s n o t
necessary?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m tr y i n g t o t h in k C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m tr y in g to t h i n k b e c a u s e I a m
tr y i n g t o r e c o ll e c t o n w h a t b a s is w o u l d I s a y i t w a s n e c e s s a r y o r n o t
n e c e s s a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r i n c li n a ti o n is t o s a y it w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

20

I a m tr y in g t o – y e s I a m t r y i n g to

t h i n k C h a ir o n w h a t b a s is w o u l d I – b e c a u s e i f I s a y i t w a s n o t
n e c e s s a r y w h a t in f o r m s my a n s w e r. T h a t is w h y I s a y I w o u l d n e e d t o
r e c o l l e c t p r o p e r ly a n d c h e c k w h e t h e r th e a n s w e r w il l b e y e s o r n o .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u r in c l in a ti o n is t o t h i n k i t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y

b u t t h a t i s n o t y o u r f in a l a n s w e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

N o , n o l e t m e n o t r e s p o n d t o th a t

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u w o u l d l ik e t i m e to th i n k a b o u t it ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I s e e w e h a v e g o n e b e y o n d M s G c a b a s h e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k le t u s t a k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t . W e a r e a t
t w e n ty p a s t o n e w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w e n ty p a s t tw o . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : A ll r is e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES:
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s G c a b a s h e a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s I a m C h a ir m a n . C h a ir m a n b e f o r e w e w e r e s u m e I w o u l d lik e to i n d ic a t e t h a t w h e n w e b r o k e a t l u n c h t i m e
M r T h a b e t h e ’s a t t o r n e y s - l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a p p r o a c h e d m e t o s a y
t h a t t h e y h a d o b j e c t e d o r th e y w e r e o b j e c ti n g t o m y u s e o f t h e s e n t e n c e
t h a t th e r e p o r ts - t h a t t h e s t a t e m e n t - t h a t th e a ff i d a v i t w a s n o t w r i tt e n
in t h e m o s t e l e g a n t E n g l is h .
T h e y t o o f e lt t h a t i t w a s u n n e c e s s a r y. T h e y e x p l a i n e d t h a t i n
f a c t t h e ir c li e n t h a d h i m s e l f d r a f t e d t h a t d o c u m e n t .

20

They had not

d r a f t e d i t - a l a w y e r h a d n o t d r a f t e d i t . I a c c e p te d t h e e x p l a n a t io n o n
w h o h a d d r a f te d i t C h a ir m a n . I a ls o a s k e d M r T h a b e t h e to c o m e a li t tl e
c lo s e r b e c a u s e I w a n te d to u n d e r s t a n d h o w h e h a d r e c e iv e d w h a t I h a d
said.
H e i n d ic a t e d h e h a d b e e n h u r t b y t h e c o m m e n t .
r e a c ti o n - h is o w n r e a c t i o n .

H e n c e h is

I t h e n u n r e s e r v e d ly a p o lo g i s e d t o

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M r T h a b e t h e b e c a u s e th a t w a s n o t t h e i n t e n t io n .

I t n e v e r is t o m a k e

anybody uncomfortable about the manner in which they express
themselves.

I a ls o a s k e d h i m t o p l e a s e c o n v e y m y a p o lo g i e s t o h i s

f a m ily b e c a u s e I li v e i n a c o m m u n i ty o f p e o p l e C h a ir m a n a n d I a s s u m e
h e t o o li v e s i n t h e c o m m u n i t y o f fa m i ly.
I t h e n a ls o m a d e th e o ff e r th a t w h e n w e s t a r t I w o u l d p u b l ic l y
s o th a t w h e r e h is f a m il y is a s w e l l I w o u l d a n d w h o e v e r e ls e h e a r d t h e
c o m m e n t a n d i n te r p r e t e d it in th e m a n n e r in w h ic h h e d id s h o u l d k n o w
t h a t i t w a s n o t p e r s o n a l o r in t e n d e d t o h u r t a n d a g a i n Mr T h a b e t h e m y
10

a p o lo g i e s . I h e a r y o u r s o n s a r e h e r e a s w e l l.
A p o l o g i e s b e c a u s e ( A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ) h e is - h e i s a n
( Af r ic a n la n g u a g e ) a n d r e a lly I a m - I a m n o t g o i n g t o b e s o ft a s I
in d i c a t e d t o y o u b u t th e i n t e n ti o n i s n o t to u s e i n te m p e r a t e l a n g u a g e o r
t o a ffr o n t y o u r d i g n i ty i n a n y w a y a n d p l e a s e if I d o - i f I d o p le a s e
o b j e c t M r T h a b e th e .

I c a n o n l y l e a r n f r o m i t w h e n I a m c o r r e c te d .

It

c a n o n ly b u il d m y c h a r a c t e r. I t c a n n o t d e s tr o y m e b u t I d o a p o lo g is e .
Thank you Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Gcabashe. I do not know whether you
w a n t t o s a y a n y t h i n g M r T h a b e th e o r n o t r e a l ly.
20

I ju s t d o n o t w a n t t o

c u t y o u o ff i n c a s e y o u w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e th in g i n r e s p o n s e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir I w o u ld o n ly s a y I a c c e p t h e r

a p o lo g y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k

you

Ms Gcabashe

Page 105 of 187

and

th a n k

you

to

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M r T h a b e t h e a n d h is le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s . I a m a w a r e t h a t t h e w h o l e
is s u e w a s h a n d l e d i n a v e r y c o n s tr u c t iv e m a n n e r f r o m a ll s i d e s . I j u s t
w a n t t o a c k n o w le d g e t h a t t h e r e is a lo t o f c o o p e r a ti o n c o m in g fr o m a ll
s id e s

in

regard

to

Mr Thabethe.

His

c o o p e r a ti v e th r o u g h o u t t h e p r o c e e d i n g s .

lawyers

have

been

very

S o Mr T h a b e t h e h a s b e e n

helpful as well. Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e m a y p r o c e e d th e n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B a c k t o a s k i n g y o u s o m e r o b u s t q u e s t io n s
10

M r T h a b e t h e . I k n o w y o u a r e r e a d y fo r t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a s - h e h a s n e v e r b e e n r e a d i e r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

No. He knows.

No, no I did say to him

and we agreed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e fo r e …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B a c k to b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e - b e f o r e h e - w e c o n ti n u e h e o w e s m e a n

a n s w e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h , y e s h e d o e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r T h a b e th e y o u h a v e h a d s o m e ti m e t o r e f le c t
20

o n t h e q u e s ti o n I p u t b e f o r e l u n c h . H a v e y o u g o t a n a n s w e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , t h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I - I

w o u ld a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir t h a t e v e n o v e r a n d a b o v e t h e r e q u ir e m e n t
o n e w o u l d a d d i t io n a l ly d o a d d i t io n a l s e a r c h o f i n fo r m a ti o n . S o t h e r e is
nothing stopping anybody to do so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , t h a n k s a n d lo o k in g b a c k y o u w o u ld c o n c e d e

Page 106 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h a t y o u s h o u l d t h e r e f o r e h a v e d o n e m u c h m o r e t h a n j u s t c h e c k in g
w h e t h e r E s ti n a w a s t a x c o m p li a n t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s

C h a ir.

Given

the

current

s i tu a ti o n I w o u l d c o n c e d e t h a t w e c o u ld h a v e d o n e a n a d d i t io n a l c h e c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l c o u l d h a v e d o n e is o n e t h i n g b u t s h o u l d y o u

h a v e d o n e t h a t is - th a t i s t h e m o r e - o n e I a m m o r e i n t e r e s te d i n . S o
in o th e r w o r d s d o y o u - d o y o u c o n c e d e th a t y o u s h o u l d h a v e d o n e
m o r e th a n j u s t c h e c k in g w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e ta x c o m p l ia n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d - a n d o n e r e a s o n w h y i t w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t
t o d o th a t b e c a u s e y o u - y o u r e f e r r e d to li ti g a t i o n f o r e x a m p l e e a r l ie r
o n y o u k n o w. I f y o u w a n te d t o r e c o v e r s o m e m o n e y fr o m E s t in a a s a
r e s u l t o f b e i n g i n v o l v e d w i t h t h e m i n t h e p r o je c t a n d y o u f o u n d t h a t
t h e y h a v e g o t n o t h in g . T h e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d - w i ll - w o u l d s u ffe r
a fi n a n c i a l lo s s t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n r e c o v e r a b l e i f it w a s a c o m p a n y
t h a t h a d th e r ig h t fi n a n c i a l b a s e a n d s o o n . Yo u - y o u a p p r e c i a te t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e t h e c a n I

20

ju s t a d d m y v ie w s o n e x a c t ly th e s a m e t o p i c a n d a l s o it is s o m e t h i n g f o r
y o u t o - t o r e f le c t o n a n d I h o p e g iv e u s a r e s p o n s e .

Yo u s e e f o u r

is s u e s a r is e f o r m e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e d u e d i li g e n c e o n Es t in a . T h e f ir s t
is s u e is i n t e r r o g a ti n g th e n a t u r e o f th e b u s in e s s t h a t t h e y c o n d u c t e d .
I f y o u w a n t to h a v e r e fe r e n c e t o th e d o c u m e n ta t io n y o u - y o u
fi n d t h e d u e r e f e r e n c e o n p a g e 5 - 3 - 5 o f t h e c o u r t r e c o r d . I d o n o t th i n k

Page 107 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
it is n e c e s s a r y. W e d e a l t w i t h i t e a r li e r. U n l e s s y o u r e a lly w a n t t o l o o k
a t t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d a g a in a t 5 - 4 - 1 . Th e s e c o n d is s u e th a t a r i s e s is
t h e a d d r e s s o f th e S o le D ir e c to r - M r K a m a l Va s r a m . I t is a S u n n i n g h il l
address.
S o w h e n y o u r e c e i v e d t h e - th e le t t e r c o n fir m i n g t h e y w e r e
t h e p a r tn e r s t o P a r a s . W h a t I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t w o u l d b e y o u f in d th e
C I P C d e t a i ls o r th e C e r t i fi c a t e o f I n c o r p o r a ti o n a n d f in d t h a t in f a c t t h e
a d d r e s s o f t h i s D ir e c t o r a p p e a r s t o b e o n e t h a t i s - c o u l d p o s s ib ly b e
o n e h e is r u n n i n g fr o m h o m e . I a m n o t s a y in g i t is i n f a c t o n e w h e r e h e
10

liv e s b u t t h e a d d r e s s is n o t th e s a m e a s t h e a d d r e s s t h a t a p p e a r s o n
t h e d o c u m e n t s i n O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .
T h e t h i r d is s u e Mr T h a b e t h e is t h e - o f c o u r s e th e c h a n g e i n
D ir e c t o r.

Mr K a m a l Va s r a m c h a n g e d a n d S u J o n g t o o k o v e r a s a

D ir e c t o r.

T h e s e is s u e s a r e i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e s e t u p a n

A g r i- B E E o r y o u a r e i n te n d i n g t o s e t u p a n A g r i- B E E e n t i ty t h a t w o u ld
b e n e fi t e m e r g i n g f a r m e r s .
S o i f E s ti n a is a s a c o m p a n y n o t c o m p l e te ly a b o v e b o a r d
n u m b e r o n e , i f y o u a r e p u t t in g s o m e t h i n g c lo s e t o 5 0 0 m il li o n - w e l l l e t
u s c a l l i t 3 0 0 . L e t m e t a k e t h e P a r a s b i t o ff . 3 0 0 m i ll io n i n t o a p r o j e c t .
20

Yo u w a n t to b e s u r e a b o u t w h o y o u a r e t r a d i n g w i t h , w h o y o u a r e
d e a li n g w i th . A m I m a k i n g s e n s e t o y o u a n d t h is is o n ly in t e r m s o f w h y
I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u t o i n t e r r o g a t e t h e i s s u e s . T h a t is t h e o n l y
r e a s o n I g iv e y o u t h e h is to r y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair I am - I am …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 108 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a s t a te m e n t . I h a v e n o t …
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t. I w a s - I w a s t h i n k in g w h e t h e r t o s a y

M s G c a b a s h e m a y b e y o u s h o u l d t a k e t h o s e th r e e o n e b y o n e . M a y b e i t
m i g h t b e e a s i e r t o - to f o ll o w. I w a s - I h a d fo r g o t te n w h ic h - w h i c h w a s
t h e - I - I w a s - I h a d f o r g o t t e n t h a t w h i c h a r e t h e f ir s t a n d t h e s e c o n d .
So I am wondering whether that might …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Have …
CHAIRPERSON:

Have

h e lp e d

-

that

might

have

a ls o

caused

M r T h a b e t h e s o m e u n c e r t a i n ty.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: My apologies.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t is b e c a u s e I a m n o t tr y i n g to r u s h . Th e
is s u e s y o u - y o u h a v e i d e n t i fi e d C h a ir m a n a s y o u i n te r r o g a te th e m w i t h
Mr Thabethe.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m s i m p ly c o n fir m i n g t h a t a s a n

e v i d e n c e l e a d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I make comm on cause with you.
20

CHAIRPERSON: And …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is r e a l ly a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u a r e a d d in g th e fi g u r e - t h e a m o u n t t h a t …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And - and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s - t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld p u t i t i n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ja.

Page 109 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

So

-

so

Mr Thabethe

the

-

b a s ic a lly

what

M s G c a b a s h e is s a y i n g i s w h e n y o u a s t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t w e r e
g o i n g t o t a k e s - t a k e R 3 0 0 - a n d s o m e t h i n g m i lli o n o f t a x p a y e r s m o n e y
a n d p u t i t i n t o a p r o je c t w i th t h i s e n t it y - E s t in a . S h e w o u ld a ls o e x p e c t
y o u to r e a l ly c h e c k t o a c e r ta i n - c h e c k m u c h m o r e t h a n w h a t y o u d i d
a n d s h e r e f e r s t o t h e a d d r e s s o f t h e D ir e c t o r a n d s o o n .
S o - b u t s h e - s h e i s f o l lo w in g u p o n o n w h a t y o u a n d I
d is c u s s e d e a r li e r.

I ta k e i t t h a t y o u - y o u r a n s w e r w o u l d b e h a v i n g

r e fl e c t e d y o u - y o u a g r e e t h a t w h e n y o u a r e g o i n g t o p u t s o m u c h o f
10

t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y i n t o a p r o je c t y o u s h o u l d d o a b e tt e r c h e c k th a n t h e
o n e th a t y o u d id .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r - C h a ir I - I h a v e a g r e e d o n
- o n th a t . T h e - th e o n ly in p u t I w o u l d w a n t t o m a k e is t h a t it s h o u l d
n o t s o u n d a s i f w e w e r e g o i n g t o p u t t h i s 3 0 0 m il li o n a t a g o a n d i t
d is a p p e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h a t is - th a t - th a t is a p o in t t h a t y o u - y o u a r e
e n t i tl e d t o m a k e , j a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. I w o u ld - I w o u l d o n ly s a y
if t h e r e w e r e t o b e a n y t h in g w r o n g …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t w o u l d n o t b e t h a t e n t ir e a m o u n t

because …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Yo u w o u l d p a y m o n e y, s o m e t h i n g

done …

Page 110 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : If y o u a r e h a p p y t h e n y o u p r o c e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm, hm.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o it c o u l d b e a c e r t a i n a m o u n t b u t

n o t e n t ir e ly t h e f u l l a m o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d I a c c e p t t h a t M r Th a b e t h e , j a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t le t u s g o b a c k t o p a g e 2 - 3 - 9 o f H H 1 0 .
10

T h a t is y o u r s t a t e m e n t - y o u r a ff id a v i t . P a g e 2 - 3 - 9 , y o u r s ta t e m e n t o r
a ffi d a v i t . It is th e 2 0 1 7 o n e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm, the …
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s t h e p a g e th a t f o ll o w s t h e o n e t h a t h a s

paragraph 12, hey?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n f a c t i t i s - m o s t o f p a r a g r a p h 1 2 is o n
t h is p a g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Is on that page, ja. It is the page that has got most
20

o f p a r a g r a p h 1 2 th a t w e h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i t h - p a g e 2 - 3 - 9 t h e r e d
2-3-9.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

We have dealt with 12.

with paragraph 13.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.

Page 111 of 187

We have dealt

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a r e n o w d e a li n g w i t h th e a g r e e m e n t

that Estina brought to you.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th a t is t h e a g r e e m e n t o f 5 J u n e 2 0 1 2 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Please correct me if I am wrong my

u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t th e a g r e e m e n t a s d r a f te d w a s t h e n t a k e n to t h e
S t a te L a w A d v is o r s . A m I c o r r e c t ?

10

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Yo u a r e n o t r e f e r r in g t o t h e c o n te n ts o f

the agreement.

Yo u a r e j u s t - y o u a r e o n p a g e 2 - 3 - 9 b u t y o u a r e

making reference to the agreement?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s a n d I a m a t p a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 4 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I w il l p o i n t M r T h a b e th e to t h e a c tu a l

agreement in a few minutes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s j u s t u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h o d r a ft e d i t .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir t h e - t h e p a r a g r a p h 1 4 s h e
is r e f e r r i n g t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I s - is n o t ta k i n g a l l th e - t h e s te p s

t h a t - I t h in k i t - i t i s a t th e e n d o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a t t h e e n d o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Leave …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e r q u e s t i o n i s w h o d r a f te d th e a g r e e m e n t th a t

paragraph 14 refers to.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h e - t h e o r ig in a l a g r e e m e n t

w a s d r a f t e d b y E s ti n a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w M r T h a b e th e h e l p m e w i th th is o n e . I
h a v e a lw a y s u n d e r s t o o d t h a t w h e r e G o v e r n m e n t e n t e r s in t o c o n tr a c ts in t o a g r e e m e n t s - G o v e r n m e n t w il l d r a f t i t i n a w a y - th a t a g r e e m e n t - in
a w a y t h a t w i ll p r o te c t G o v e r n m e n t .

T h e o t h e r p a r t y w il l n o t d r a f t i t .

A m I w r o n g a b o u t th a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o t a l l t h e ti m e C h a ir.

Where you

h a v e c a p a c i ty y o u d o d r a ft a n d w h e r e y o u d o n o t h a v e t h e c a p a c i ty t h e
o th e r p a r t y c a n a l s o d r a ft .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE
20

SC:

Was

there

an

agreement

between

yourselves and either Paras or Estina as to who would draft the original
a ffi d a v i t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e y h a d i n d i c a t e d C h a ir t h a t t h e y

w o u ld - t h e y w o u l d a s s is t i n d r a f t in g t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n p r e s e n t it
to us.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Where …?

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CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I g u e s s - I g u e s s t h a t m u s t m e a n n o t th a t t h e y

w o u ld a s s is t i f t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o p r e s e n t it t o y o u . T h e y w o u l d d r a f t i t
…
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: They would draft, ja.
CHAIRPERSON: And then present it to you?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w I a m in t e r e s te d in y o u r c o m m e n t t h a t
t h is w a s r e a l ly a t t h e e n d o f a p r o c e s s . I t a k e i t t h a t y o u a r e in d ic a t i n g
10

t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i th t h e m a b o u t w h a t s h o u l d g o
in t o t h e a g r e e m e n t M r T h a b e th e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th a t - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e

w e - w e a lr e a d y b o th o f u s h a d d o c u m e n ts a t h a n d .

That document

w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e n i n li n e w it h w h a t e v e r d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e - w e
were having.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e n y o u s p e a k o f h a v in g d o c u m e n ts in

h a n d y o u w o u l d h a v e h a d y o u r o w n d r a f t a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e y w o u ld
h a v e h a d t h e ir o w n b e f o r e th e fi n a l a g r e e m e n t w a s g e n e r a t e d b y
E s ti n a ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e e x p la i n Mr T h a b e t h e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Document - documents mean you -

y o u a ll h a v e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Notes?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t e s y o u m e a n . L ik e y o u r o w n n o t e s …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of what should go into the agreement?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e - w e a l l k n o w w h a t th e i n te n ti o n is
a n d i t is th e s a m e . T h e n th e - th e a g r e e m e n t c a n b e d r a f t e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d - d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r P a r a s h a d

a n y th in g a t a l l t o d o w i t h t h e d r a f ti n g o f t h is o r i g i n a l a g r e e m e n t o f
10

5 June?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir m y - i n - i n a ll o u r d o c u m e n ts

m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f i n t e r a c ti n g w i th E s ti n a w a s i n te r a c t i n g w i th P a r a s
b e c a u s e i t w a s th e i r c o m p a n y id e n ti fi e d p r e s e n t e d t o u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e q u e s ti o n i s w h e th e r y o u k n e w w h e th e r t h i s

a g r e e m e n t w a s d r a f te d b y P a r a s w i t h o u t a n y b o d y fr o m - n o - b y E s t i n a
w i t h o u t a n y b o d y f r o m P a r a s b e i n g i n v o l v e d i n t h a t d r a f ti n g o r i n - i n t h e
p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h a t d o c u m e n t o r is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w b u t
f o r y o u r p u r p o s e s a s lo n g a s it c a m e f r o m E s ti n a y o u t o o k it a s c o m in g
fr o m P a r a s .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. Yo u r l a s t e x p l a n a t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is t h e c o r r e c t o n e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is - is t h e c o r r e c t o n e y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u d id n o t k n o w w h e t h e r a n y b o d y fr o m P a r a s h a d
b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th e d r a f t in g o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b u t a s lo n g a s i t - i t
c a m e f r o m E s ti n a y o u t o o k i t th a t f o r a l l i n t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s i t w a s

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c o m i n g fr o m P a r a s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

The reason that becomes an important

c o n s i d e r a ti o n M r T h a b e t h e is b e c a u s e m y r e a d i n g o f t h e M e m o r a n d u m
o f U n d e r s t a n d i n g b e t w e e n P a r a s a n d E s t in a is th a t i t is a o n e y e a r
Memorandum of Understanding. Was that your understanding as well?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

T h e s e c o n d is s u e a r is i n g fr o m t h e

M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t E s ti n a w o u l d b e th e a g e n t o f
P a r a s . Wa s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
agreement is
in c l u d i n g

in

that
th e

E s t in a

T h e t h ir d is s u e t h a t a r is e s fr o m t h e
would

look

a g r i c u l tu r a l s e c t o r

for

for

b u s in e s s

Paras.

o p p o r tu n it i e s

Wa s

th a t

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m t r y i n g t o t h i n k C h a ir. N o t
o u t s i d e t h is a g r e e m e n t . I w o u ld n o t b e i n t e r e s te d in o t h e r b u s i n e s s e s
t h a t th e y w o u l d h a v e l o o k e d f o r P a r a s o u ts id e w h a t w e w e r e d o i n g .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

J u s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o n v e n i e n c e th e

M e m o r a n d u m o f A g r e e m e n t is i n R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e A . S o i t is r e f e r e n c e
bundle - Reference Bundle A at page 284.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( In d is ti n c t) .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r m ic M r T h a b e th e . T h a n k y o u . I a m
lo o k in g a t p a g e 2 8 9 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t w h e r e C la u s e 4 d e a ls w i t h th e

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d u t ie s a n d r e s p o n s i b ili t i e s o f E s t i n a . I w i ll n o t g o th r o u g h a l l o f th e m
b u t s i m p ly h i g h li g h t t h a t t h e f ir s t o n e s a y s :
“ E s ti n a

shall

i d e n t i fy

and

secure

o p p o r tu n it i e s

w h e r e b y th e c o m p a n y c a n p a r tic i p a t e fo r t h e p r o j e c t
i m p l e m e n ta t io n in b o t h G o v e r n m e n t a n d p r i v a t e
s e c t o r. ”
Yo u a g r e e th a t is w h a t is r e c o r d e d h e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I r e a l ly d o n o t w a n t to g o i n t o a ll o f t h e m
10

b e c a u s e I d o n o t b e li e v e i t is n e c e s s a r y. I a m ju s t il l u s tr a ti n g t h e p o in t
I m a k e a b o u t Es t in a b e in g a n a g e n t l o o k i n g f o r b u s in e s s o p p o r t u n i ti e s
f o r P a r a s - th e c o m p a n y b e i n g P a r a s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t le t u s m o v e b e y o n d t h is d o c u m e n t a n d
o f c o u r s e th is p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n Mr T h a b e t h e . I
a m lo o k in g a t p a g e 2 - 9 - 5 r i g h t n o w a n d y o u h a v e M s S a n je e v G a u ta m
w h o s i g n e d o n b e h a l f o f E s ti n a a n d y o u h a v e M r G a j i n d e r K u m a r w h o
s ig n e d o n b e h a l f o f P a r a s a n d t h o u g h m y c o p y is a p o o r c o p y I b e l ie v e
t h is d o c u m e n t w a s s i g n e d i n M a y 2 0 1 2 b u t I w il l c o r r e c t t h a t i f I a m

20

w r o n g i f w e f in d a b e tt e r c o p y. T h e c o p y I h a v e is r a th e r p o o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r T h a b e th e m i g h t b e a b l e to s a y w h e t h e r t h a t w a s

t h e c o r r e c t m o n t h . D o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o l l e c ti o n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Whether it was signed in May?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I t h i n k i t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s . Th e c o p y is v e r y p o o r b u t I - I

think it is correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I n f a c t if I m ig h t c o r r e c t m y s e l f my

colleague …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H a s ju s t p o in t e d o u t t h a t i f w e l o o k a t

p a g e 2 8 5 C h a ir m a n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

It

says

that

the

Memorandum

of

U n d e r s t a n d in g i s d a t e d 11 A p r il 2 0 1 2 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O h , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o a t l e a s t i t is in th e s a m e - m o r e o r l e s s
s a m e b a ll p a r k p e r i o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l th a t - w o u l d - w o u l d th a t n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e
b e e n t h e d a t e o f s i g n a t u r e o r i t c o u ld b e a d a te o f t h e p r e p a r a t io n o f
t h e d o c u m e n t a n d - a n d it d o e s n o t m a tt e r p r o b a b ly f o r o u r p u r p o s e s
b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h e r e m a y - m a y w e l l b e c o r r e c t if m a y b e i f t h e r e
20

a r e d i ffe r e n t d a te s f o r p r e p a r a ti o n a n d s i g n a t u r e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It r e a l ly d o e s n o t m a t t e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w ill b r in g it t o y o u r a t te n ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f w e d o f in d a b e t te r c o p y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you.

S o a g a i n m y c o l l e a g u e is

m a k i n g t h e - t h e p o i n t t h a t a t p a g e 2 8 6 j u s t to d e a l w i th t h e d a t e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A t p a g e 2 8 6 y o u h a v e u n d e r d e fi n i t io n s

M O U d a te a s m e a n i n g a n d r e fe r r i n g t o 11 A p r i l 2 0 11 b e i n g th e d a t e o f
e x e c u ti o n o f t h is M O U .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So at least we - we do not need to debate
10

t h a t d a t e . T h e a g r e e m e n t - t h e v e r y f ir s t a g r e e m e n t - I a m j u s t lo o k in g
a t t h e c o v e r p a g e w h i c h is p a g e 6 - 1 - 9 M r T h a b e t h e .

I t is c a l l e d a

P a r t n e r s h i p A g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e F r e e
S t a te P r o v i n c e S o u th A fr ic a a n d Es t in a ( P t y ) L t d . Ar e y o u t h e r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a l s o w a n t t o g e t t h e r e . 6 - 1 - 9 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Of Reference …
CHAIRPERSON: A, Reference Bundle A?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B , C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 6-1-9 of Reference B.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D i d - d i d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r w e w ill s t il l n e e d
t h e c o u r t r e c o r d b u n d le s …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s a c t u a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is a f te r n o o n ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s p l e a s e C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

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A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o n o t p u t th e m t o o f a r a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B r i n g it t o m e . I w i ll - m u s t th e - I w i ll fi n d t h e
page.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : i f - i f y o u c a n r e p e a t t h e p a g e s ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The page number is 6-1-9.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 6-1-9 on Reference Bundle B.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o r r e c t C h a ir m a n . 6 - 1 - 9 is w r i t t e n o n t h e
10

t o p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r. C a n I a s k m y c o l l e a g u e - a r e y o u g o o d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h a v e - I h a v e g o t it C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Are you good? Thank you. So I was just
r e a d in g t h e fi r s t t w o e n tr ie s t h e r e . S o i t i s a c o n f id e n ti a l d o c u m e n t . It
is a P a r tn e r s h ip A g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e Fr e e
S t a te P r o v i n c e S o u t h A fr ic a a n d E s t i n a ( P t y ) L td . I w o u l d lik e t o p a u s e
t h e r e a n d a s k w a s th is b y a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e E s ti n a ( P t y )
L td w r i t t e n h e r e r a t h e r th a n P a r a s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. R e m e m b e r m y - m y
o r i g in a l e x p l a n a t io n t h a t i f - i f y o u g o to th is k in d o f a g r e e m e n t y o u

20

w o u ld n o t t h e n i n c lu d e th e i n t e r n a t io n a l c o m p a n y.

Yo u w i ll o n l y th e n

p u t it w i t h th e l o c a l c o m p a n y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

And you explained then that because of

ju r is d i c t i o n a l is s u e s y o u w a n t t o b e s u e t h e l o c a l p a r t n e r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h a t is w h y b y a g r e e m e n t y o u t h e n

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had …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W i t h Es t i n a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F o r m u l a t e d i t th is w a y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I am going further down and you say here:
“ I n r e l a ti o n t o th e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f a d a i r y p r o j e c t
a t Vr e d e . ”
C a n I p a u s e a g a i n a t Vr e d e ? N o w I k n o w t h a t t h e - t h e b r o a d
d is c u s s io n s y o u h a d h a d i d e n ti f ie d Vr e d e .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m - th a t i s c o r r e c t ; b u t y o u h a d n o t

id e n t i fi e d t h e l a n d th a t y o u w a n t e d t o a l lo c a te t o t h i s f a r m o r h a d y o u ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e - w e h a d a lr e a d y d o n e s o C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u h a d n o t g o n e t h r o u g h th e f o r m a l i ti e s
o f a c q u ir i n g t h a t la n d a s a t J u n e 2 0 1 2 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t - n o t y e t C h a ir. It - i t h a s n o t y e t
b e e n f o r m a ll y m a d e a v a i l a b le t o u s b u t - I - I w a n t t o u s e t h e c o r r e c t
w o r d . I n - i n d is c u s s i o n t h e r e - th e r e w a s - t h e r e w e r e n o o b j e c t io n to
us having the land.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o w o u l d y o u h a v e h a d t h i s d is c u s s i o n s
w i t h M r T h a b e th e a n d p l e a s e I a s k y o u th i s b e c a u s e o n m y r e c o r d y o u r
v is it t o t h e P h u m e le l a L o c a l M u n ic ip a li ty w a s o n 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 2 ?

I do

n o t w a n t to c o n fu s e y o u . S o w h o d i d y o u h a v e th e s e d is c u s s i o n s w i t h
prior to signing this 5 June agreement?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir, w e - w e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
h a v i n g in t e r a c ti o n w i t h t h e m u n ic i p a l it y a n d th e i n te n d e d b e n e f ic ia r i e s
p r i o r t o th is b e c a u s e b y t h e ti m e w e w e r e fo r m a l is i n g w e h a d a lr e a d y
d o n e a l o t o f m e e ti n g s .

G o i n g in t o Vr e d e M u n ic i p a li ty o r g a n i s i n g

m e e ti n g s fo r u s , t a lk in g a l s o t o t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s .
S o a lr e a d y t h e - th e la n d in q u e s ti o n w a s a lr e a d y a v a il a b l e
b u t t h e f o r m a li s a t io n o f t h e r e l e a s e o f t h e l a n d h a d n o t b e e n d o n e
w h ic h w e t h e n l a t e r r e q u e s te d th a t i t b e f o r m a lis e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Tw o - t w o th in g s a r i s e M r T h a b e th e a n d I
a m g o i n g t o c h o p th e m u p .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w i ll s t a r t w i t h t h e b e n e f ic i a r y is s u e . M y
u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t a s a t 5 J u n e t h e r e w a s n o fo r m a l it y w it h r e g a r d t o
w h o t h e lis t o f b e n e fi c i a r ie s m i g h t b e . P l e a s e c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w e h a d h a d t h e - t h e li s t o f - o f
w h o w il l b e th e - t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s o f t h e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e w e h a d
in t e r a c te d w i t h t h e m .

W e h a d c a t e g o r is e d t h e m i n t o g r o u p s .

w e r e t h o s e t h a t w e r e i n te r e s t e d i n p i g s .

There

T h e r e w e r e th o s e th a t w e r e

in t e r e s te d i n v e g e t a b l e s a n d s o o n . S o w e h a d h a d m e e t i n g s b e fo r e .
S o w e h a d a lr e a d y k n o w n w h ic h o f t h o s e t h a t w o u l d h a v e in t e r e s t a n d
20

w e h a d a lis t o f a l l o f t h e m e v e n b e f o r e w e h a d fo r m a l ly w e n t b a c k to
t h e m t o s a y n o w g iv e u s y o u r n a m e s a n d I D n u m b e r s f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f
fi n a n c i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r Th a b e t h e I w a n t to i n t e r r o g a t e t h e

in f o r m a li ty o f t h a t , I a g r e e w it h y o u , y o u h a d b e e n t o T h e m b a l is h e
township.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

W i th M E C Z w a n e a t t h e ti m e a n d o t h e r

o ffic i a ls .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

To s p e a k w i t h b e n e fi c i a r ie s , I a g r e e .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That is correct.
Yo u h a v e h a d a s k e d t h e m t o in d i c a t e

t h e ir a r e a s o f in t e r e s t a s y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d , w h o w a n t e d c a t t le ,
f a r m in g , w h o w a s i n t e r e s t e d i n p o u l tr y e tc e t e r a , e tc e t e r a .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
S o th is is w h y I s a y I a m ta k i n g i s s u e

w i t h t h e in f o r m a li ty o f t h e a p p r o a c h a n d t h e s t a tu s o f t h o s e p e o p le a s
b e n e fic i a r i e s o f a r a th e r i m p o r t a n t a g r e e m e n t w h e r e t h e f o r m a li ty o f
r e g is t e r in g t h e m a s b e n e fic i a r i e s h a d n o t b e e n c o m p l e t e d . Ar e y o u w i th
me?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a , C h a ir w e h a d t h e li s t o f th e

b e n e fic i a r i e s , m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f f o r m a l ly r e g i s t e r in g t h e m s h o u l d
o n ly c o m e w h e n t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t s a y s t o u s w e a g r e e in
fi n a n c i n g t h is e n d e a v o u r w i t h y o u , p r o v i d e u s t h e n w i t h y o u r l is t o f
20

b e n e fic i a r i e s w i th t h e fo ll o w i n g d e t a i ls . I t is o n ly t h e n t h a t y o u g o a n d
c o l l e c t , i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t w e d i d n o t k n o w t h a t , w e k n e w th e m b u t
in th e fo r m r e q u ir e d w e h a d t h e n to g o b a c k a n d c o ll e c t th a t a d d i t io n a l
in f o r m a ti o n , t h e y k n e w th e m s e lv e s a l s o , s o it w a s e a s y f o r u s t o c a l l
t h e m a n d c o ll e c t t h e r e q u ir e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u s e e M r T h a b e th e m y d i ffic u lt y w i t h

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h a t p r o p o s i ti o n is t h a t f o r t u n a t e ly o n e c a n l o o k a t t h e h is t o r y n o w a n d
fi n d th a t t o d a t e in l a w t h e y h a v e n e v e r b e e n b e n e fic i a r i e s , y e t y o u r
in t e n t io n w h e n y o u w e n t t o s e e t h e m w a s t o m a k e t h e m b e n e fic i a r i e s o f
t h is p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e b e f o r e h e r e s p o n d s m a y b e t h e i n l a w p a r t
m i g h t c o n f u s e b e c a u s e h e is n o t a la w y e r, I a m s a y in g y o u a r e n o t a
la w y e r Mr T h a b e th e e v e n t h o u g h y o u d id n o t te ll m e y o u a r e n o t o n e ,
m a y b e y o u a r e , b u t c a n I ta k e i t t h a t y o u a r e n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

N o I a m n o t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o h e m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o s a y w h e th e r y o u a r e
c o r r e c t o r n o t c o r r e c t w h e n y o u s a y i n l a w th e r e h a v e n e v e r b e e n
b e n e fic i a r i e s , s o y o u m i g h t w is h t o p u t i t d i ff e r e n t ly.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I w il l d o th a t . Al l I

a m c o m m u n ic a ti n g M r T h a b e th e is t h e y h a v e n o le g a l r e c o u r s e a s
b e n e fic i a r i e s , t h e y d id n o t w h e n

you were there in June of 2012 and

e a r l ie r a c t u a ll y t o d a y t h e y d o n o t h a v e a l e g a l d o c u m e n t t h a t m a k e s
t h e m b e n e f ic i a r ie s , b u t I k n o w y o u r in t e n t i o n fr o m w h a t I h a v e r e a d w a s
t h a t y o u w a n t e d e m e r g i n g f a r m e r s t o b e b e n e f ic i a r i e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

J a C h a ir t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t s h o u ld

h a v e u n f o ld e d m a y b e t o a c h i e v e w h a t is c a ll e d in la w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e in la w p a r t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e in l a w p a r t .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

D id n o t h a p p e n b e c a u s e w e w e r e in

t h e b e g i n n in g o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d o n e o f t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s t h a t w e h a d

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
r e q u e s t e d E s ti n a to d o w a s t o r e g is te r a c o m p a n y o n th e i r b e h a l f w h e r e
y o u w il l t h e n p u t t h e m i n a n d o ff ic i a lly t h e n m a k e th e m b e n e fi c i a r i e s ,
b u t w e d id n o t g e t to th a t s t a g e . T h e in t e n ti o n w a s c o r r e c t b u t w e d i d
not get there.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u s e e M r Th a b e t h e w h e n I lo o k a t t h e

f a c e o f t h is d o c u m e n t t h e o n ly b e n e fic i a r y h e r e is E s ti n a b e c a u s e i t i s
t h e r e g is t e r e d c o m p a n y t h a t is i n b u s in e s s w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e , y o u w o u ld a g r e e w i t h t h a t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

C h a ir I w o u ld n o t a g r e e , b e c a u s e w e

h a v e j u s t a g r e e d n o w t h a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s to s t a n d f o r a y e a r, a f t e r
t h a t th e c o m p a n y o f t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s w i ll t a k e o v e r, b u t w h a t I a m
e x p l a i n in g is t h a t w e d i d n o t g e t to t h e – t h e in t e r v e n ti o n s w e r e b e f o r e
w e c o u l d g e t t h e r e , th e n th e p r o j e c ts c a m e to a s t a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t c o u n s e l is s a y in g is a s a t th e 5 t h o f J u n e
2 0 1 2 w h e n y o u o n b e h a l f o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e s ig n e d – w e l l
o n e o f y o u I th i n k m a y h a v e s i g n e d l a t e r, b u t a t a n y r a t e a s a t th e ti m e
o f th e s i g n i n g o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e
a n d Es t in a b e y o n d t h e b e n e fic ia r y i n t e r m s o f t h is a g r e e m e n t, m a y b e I
s h o u l d n o t s a y b e n e f ic ia r y.

20

T h e o n ly e n t i ty o r p e r s o n t h a t r e a l ly s t o o d t o b e n e f i t i n t e r m s
o f th is a g r e e m e n t w a s E s ti n a , a n d n o t a n y b o d y t h a t y o u m a y h a v e
c o n te m p l a t e d w o u ld u lt i m a t e ly b e n e f i t, s i m p l y o n t h e fa c e o f t h e
a g r e e m e n t , b u t I th i n k t h a t – I h o p e I h a v e p u t i t a c c u r a t e ly ,t h a t t h a t is
t h e g i s t o f t h e p r o p o s i t io n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I w o u l d a g r e e C h a ir w i th y o u r

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s t a te m e n t i f it w a s n o t c o v e r e d i n t h e a g r e e m e n t s s i d e w i th E s ti n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

But that was covered in the

a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e y w o u l d n o t b e t h e o n l y b e n e fic i a r i e s , b u t th e y w o u ld
b e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , in t h e f u tu r e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

In future yes, so it has been covered

in t h e a g r e e m e n t s i g n e d b y th a t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , f o r th e f u t u r e .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Fo r t h e f u tu r e y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u s e e M r T h a b e t h e I a m a g a i n s ti ll

lo o k in g a t t h e fr o n t c o v e r p a g e o f th e a g r e e m e n t , y o u h a v e a c o m p a n y
c a l l e d Z a n a I n v e s t m e n t s P t y L i m i te d tr a d i n g a s M a h o m a M o b u n g D a ir y
P r o je c t. I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u a r e a b le t o e x p l a in w h o Z a n a w o u l d h a v e
b e e n a n d w h a t t h e i n t e n t io n w a s in s e t ti n g o u t t h e l a s t b i t tr a d i n g
M a h o m a M o b u n g D a i r y Pr o je c t . I fa il t o u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t ly w h a t th is i s
a b o u t.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

C h a i r t h is is e x a c tly w h a t I h a v e

b e e n e x p l a i n i n g , b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d to m a k e s u r e th a t th is c o m p a n y
b e c o m e s t h e b e n e f ic i a r i e s ’ c o m p a n y s o h e n c e I w a s s a y i n g w e r e g is te r
t h is c o m p a n y s o t h a t w e in c l u d e i t , s o t h a t E s t i n a d o n o t b e c o m e t h e
s o l e s h a r e h o l d e r b u t w e a r e s a y i n g in t h is a g r e e m e n t Z a n a I n v e s t m e n t
b e c o m e t h e s t i p u la t e d a g g r e g a t e B E E w h e r e w e a r e g o i n g t o p u t th e
b e n e fic i a r i e s .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t Z a n a I n v e s t m e n t P t y L i m i t e d th a t y o u s a y

w o u ld b e t h e v e h ic l e t o b e n e fi t t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u r e c a l l Mr T h a b e t h e w h o t h e

d ir e c t o r o r d ir e c t o r s i n th e p l u r a l o f Z a n a I n v e s t m e n ts m ig h t h a v e b e e n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir i t w a s a s h e ll c o m p a n y, w e

w a n t e d i t r e g is t e r e d s o th a t o n c e w e h a v e c o m p l e t e d a l l th e p r o c e s s e s
t h e n w e w i ll ta k e a ll th e b e n e f ic i a r i e s a n d r e g is t e r t h e m i n to th e
10

c o m p a n y, s o i t – li k e w e h a v e i n d ic a t e d i t i s a s h e l l c o m p a n y, i t is n o t
yet completed.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r T h a b e t h e th e i n te r e s t I h a v e i n t h i s

s h a r e h o l d in g s t r u c tu r e r e a l ly is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t a n d i t is i m p o r t a n t
b e c a u s e f o r t u n a t e ly w e h a v e th e b e n e fi t o f th e h i s to r y w h a t is n o w –
what happened over the years.

As y o u c o r r e c t ly p o in t e d o u t e a r li e r

g o v e r n m e n t p u t i n m o n e y i n p h a s e s i n t o t h i s p r o j e c t , th a t is c o r r e c t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

That is correct.

A n d t h e i d e a w a s t o p u t 11 4 m ill i o n i n t o

t h is p a r tic u la r p r o j e c t o v e r a t h r e e y e a r p e r io d ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e b e n e f i c ia r i e s , th e 1 0 0 b e n e fic ia r i e s

o f Vr e d e , M e m e l e a n d W a r d e n w h o h a v e n o l e g a l s t a n d i n g a t a ll h a v e
n o t s e e n a n y b e n e fi t fr o m t h e 11 4 m il li o n th a t y o u p u t i n , in t h e f ir s t
y e a r o r t h e s e c o n d . Yo u w o u l d a g r e e w i th t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir le t m e g o b a c k a g a in .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h i s a g r e e m e n t i n fr o n t o f u s w a s t h e

o r i g in a l p r o p o s e d a g r e e m e n t t h a t I h a d a g r e e d o n .

We had already

in t e r a c te d w i t h t h e fa r m e r s s o th a t th e y h a v e a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t
t h e y a r e g o in g t o b e c o m e b e n e fic i a r i e s , a n d w e h a d r e g is t e r e d t h e
c o m p a n y a n d w e h a d i n c o r p o r a t e d t h e c o m p a n y in t o th e a g r e e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Za n a ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t is Z a n a . T h e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t

C h a ir, I w a n t to g e t t o t h a t .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I am happy with that.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I w a n t t o g e t to t h a t . W h e n w e w e r e

a c ti v a t in g t h e p r o c e s s t h i s a g r e e m e n t w a s t h e n g i v e n t o t h e S t a t e L a w
A d v is o r s w h ic h w e r e n o t c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h t h i s a g r e e m e n t .

A new

a g r e e m e n t w a s d r a f te d th a t I th e n s i g n e d fr o m t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s .
T h a t a g r e e m e n t d o e s n o t l o o k l ik e , I w a s v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e w it h t h i s fir s t
a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e i t c o v e r e d a ll th e e le m e n ts t h a t I w a s l o o k i n g a t ,
b u t i f th e le g a l p e o p le a d v is e y o u t h is is t h e c o r r e c t o n e t o s ig n t h e n I
s ig n e d t h a t o n e , b u t s ti ll w it h t h e in t e n t, p u r p o s e , o f a c h i e v i n g t h i s ,
b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n a d v i s e d l e g a lly th a t t h is a g r e e m e n t d i d n o t p r o te c t
20

the State, hence the second agreement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll Ms G c a b a s h e s a i d s h e w a s h a p p y t h a t y o u w e r e
g o i n g t o t h e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t a n d t h a t m ig h t b e b e c a u s e s h e p la n s t o
go there.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t i s b e c a u s e th e is s u e I w a n t t o r a is e

D C J . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o e s w it h t h a t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is r e a l ly r e l a te d to b o th a g r e e m e n ts .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , le t m e a l l o w y o u to a s k a n d t h e n – j a .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u D C J . A n d t h a t is r e a lly th e

is s u e a r o u n d t h e d e v i a ti o n , b e c a u s e t h is a r r a n g e m e n t, I a m s ti ll o n m y
p a g e 6 1 9 , t h e c o v e r p a g e , w h ic h s e ts o u t t h e p a r ti e s , t h i s a r r a n g e m e n t
w a s n o t d o n e i n t e r m s o f th e S C M p o l ic y d o c u m e n t t h a t w e d is c u s s e d
y e s t e r d a y.

Yo u r v i e w p le a s e ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

H e n c e C h a ir I w a n t e d t o o b j e c t

y e s t e r d a y b e c a u s e I s a w i t w a s c o m in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o y o u d id n o t w a n t t o o b j e c t , y o u w a n te d t o p u t y o u r
v ie w s a n d w e s a i d y o u w o u l d g e t a c h a n c e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , y e s t e r d a y I w a s t o l d I s h o u l d

not go there yet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o y o u h a v e b e e n . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o w I s e e i t ’s g o in g th e r e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u h a v e b e e n w a i ti n g f o r t h e o p p o r t u n i ty.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t is y o u r o p p o r tu n it y, u s e i t .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Please.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o t a k e

y o u th r o u g h t h i s , w e h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h a n u m b e r o f p r o c e s s e s i n th e
s u p p ly c h a i n p r o c e s s e s o f p r o v i d i n g s u p p o r t to f a r m e r s . I w il l b e v e r y
s h o r t i n t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t o n e s e c o n d , I a m d e b a ti n g i n my o w n m i n d w it h

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
myself Ms Gcabashe, whether what I wanted to deal with I should deal
w i t h n o w, b e c a u s e o n c e y o u g o to t h e is s u e o f t h e d e v i a t i o n th a t ’s q u i t e
a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p a r t a n d i t m ig h t t a k e u s s o m e ti m e , o r w h a t is y o u r
f e e li n g ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

P l e a s e a s k y o u r q u e s t io n C h a ir m a n

b e c a u s e I k n o w t h a t M r T h a b e th e h a s b e e n w a i t in g fo r m i n e s i n c e
y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w i ll g iv e y o u t h e c h a n c e to t h e d e a l w it h t h a t , b u t
le t m e a s k a f e w q u e s ti o n s o n t h e f ir s t a g r e e m e n t f ir s t . A m I r i g h t t o
10

t h i n k th a t t h i s a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 t h o f J u ly, I t h i n k o n e o f y o u s i g n e d i t
on the 7th.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o n e o f y o u s ig n e d o n th e 5 t h , t h e o t h e r o n e o n th e
7 t h , b u t I w i ll r e fe r t o i t a s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , t h e a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 t h .

I s th e p o s i t io n t h a t

y o u s ig n e d i t w it h o u t g e t ti n g a l a w y e r t o l o o k a t i t a n d s e e w h e t h e r i t is
a n o r d e r i f y o u s i g n i t f o r th e p u r p o s e f o r w h ic h y o u w e r e s e e k i n g t o
s ig n i t , t h a t w o u ld b e o k a y.
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir i n d e p a r t m e n ts y o u h a v e le g a l

p e o p l e b u t n o t a t a l e v e l t h a t y o u m a y r e q u ir e , b u t w h e n I w e n t th r o u g h
it , i t c o v e r e d t h e in t e n t o f w h a t w e h a v e b e e n lo o k i n g fo r.

We could

n o t s e e a n y m a j o r is s u e , I a ls o a s k e d t h i s t o t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s i f
t h e r e w a s a n y t h in g i n p a r tic u l a r th a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e r a is e d w h ic h w a s
a c h a ll e n g e .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
T h e o n ly is s u e t h a t t h e y r a is e d to u s w a s t h a t i t d id n o t p r o t e c t
t h e S t a t e , t h a t w a s th e i s s u e t h a t t h e y h a d r a i s e d to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e m ic C h a ir m a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e t h a t is a m a j o r i s s u e , i s i t n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t is C h a ir b u t g iv e n t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t

w e d id n o t w a n t t h is t o r u n v e r y l o n g , b e c a u s e w e w a n te d a s p e c i a l
p u r p o s e v e h i c l e w h ic h i s Za n a to e v e n tu a l l y t a k e o v e r, b e c a u s e t h a t w il l
b e t h e c o m p a n y w h e r e t h e m o n e y w o u l d g o , s o t h is w a s a b o u t i n i t ia t in g
10

t h e p r o c e s s , g e t i t g o in g , g e t t in g t h e c o m p a n y r e g is t e r e d , s o th a t w h e n
w e d o f i n a n c e s o f t h e f a r m e r s i t g o e s t o t h e c o r r e c t p la c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w a s th e r e n o m o n e y th a t th e D e p a r t m e n t w a s

g o i n g t o p u t i n to t h is b e fo r e th a t v e h ic l e w a s p u t i n p l a c e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e r e w a s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A l o t o f m o n e y is i t n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t w a s m o n e y b u t n o t a s u b s t a n t ia l

p a r t o f t h e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h w a s i t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

T h e r e w a s R 3 0 m il li o n t h a t w e w a n te d

t o p u t i n s o t h a t i t s e t s u p t h e p r o c e s s g o in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h a t i s n o t a lo t o f m o n e y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I n c o m p a r is o n w i t h t h e to t a l c o s t o f

t h e p r o j e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, a l r i g h t , y e s , b u t th e is s u e o f th e i n t e r e s t
o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t in t h e a g r e e m e n t w o u l d b e a m a jo r is s u e b e c a u s e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
w h a t i t c o u l d m e a n is th a t G o v e r n m e n t , i f t h e a g r e e m e n t w e r e t o
c o n ti n u e a s is it c o u ld m e a n t h a t G o v e r n m e n t c o u ld l o s e m il li o n s o f
m o n e y b e c a u s e t h e a g r e e m e n t d o e s n o t p r o te c t G o v e r n m e n t ’s in t e r e s ts
is i t n o t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t . .. [ i n te r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t p r o p o s i t io n c o r r e c t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e a d v ic e t h a t I w a s

g iv e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d y o u a c c e p t e d t h e a d v ic e ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a c c e p t e d t h e a d v ic e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u s a y n o w y o u a r e a t t h e p o i n t w h e r e y o u
a r e i n te r a c t i n g w i th t h e S t a te L a w A d v i s o r s a f t e r y o u h a v e s i g n e d t h e
a g r e e m e n t . I a m a t t h e t i m e w h e n – b e fo r e y o u s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t,
s o my q u e s t io n i s d i d i t n o t o c c u r t o y o u t h a t b e f o r e I s ig n s u c h a n
a g r e e m e n t t h a t c o u l d s e e G o v e r n m e n t p u t in m ill i o n s o f m o n e y I s h o u ld
g e t a d v ic e fr o m m a y b e m u c h m o r e s e n i o r l a w y e r s th a n t h e o n e s y o u
h a d , m a y b e le t m e a s k t h e i n t e r n a l l a w y e r o r le g a l p e r s o n t h a t d e a l t
w i t h t h e m a t t e r i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a r e y o u a b l e to i n d ic a t e w h a t k in d o f
s e n i o r it y h e h a d o r s h e h a d a t t h e t i m e ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e la w y e r w a s a t a D e p u ty D ir e c t o r

le v e l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A D e p u ty D i r e c to r le v e l ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

Ye s a n d t h e l a w y e r, t h e S t a t e L a w

A d v is o r s in t h e o ffi c e o f th e Pr e m i e r w a s a t th e D D G le v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e p u t y D ir e c to r G e n e r a l le v e l?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

D e p u t y D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l l e v e l y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e d i ff e r e n c e w a s q u it e h u g e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s q u i t e b ig C h a ir.

A n d t h e l a w y e r t h a t y o u h a d i n te r n a l ly w a s i t

s o m e b o d y w h o w a s a n a d m i tt e d a t to r n e y, a n a d m i t t e d a d v o c a t e , w a s i t
s o m e b o d y w h o h a d p r a c t ic e d , w h o h a d n o t p r a c ti c e d o r – d o y o u k n o w ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how long he had been or she had been a
la w y e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o r m a l l y C h a ir a l th o u g h I w il l n o t b e

p r e c i s e t h e p e o p le t h a t w i ll b e s e r v i n g i n g o v e r n m e n t w o u l d b e t h o s e
t h a t a r e fr e s h fr o m s c h o o l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o I w o u l d n o t b e f a m il ia r w i t h th e ir

process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p a r tic u la r o n e , b u t y o u – b u t i t is fa ir t o s a y t h a t
p e r s o n w o u ld h a v e b e e n q u i t e j u n io r ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

M y c o n c e r n t h e r e f o r e is w h y a s h e a d o f

d e p a r t m e n t y o u w o u l d h a v e s e e n i t a s f i n e to r e l y o n t h e a d v ic e o f s u c h
a j u n i o r p e r s o n fo r s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t p r o j e c t i n v o l v i n g m i ll i o n s o f
R a n d s a n d n o t g o t o a n e x p e r i e n c e d l a w y e r, m a y b e t h e S t a t e L a w
A d v is o r s w h o w e r e q u i t e s e n i o r ?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir e v e n th o u g h I w o u ld n o t h a v e

f o ll o w e d t h e p r o c e s s a t s o m e s t a g e y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t if a
la w y e r d o e s n o t fe e l c o m f o r t a b l e t h e y c o n s u l t , t h a t’s w h a t I k n o w, a
n u m b e r o f t i m e s th e y w i ll t e l l m e t h a t w e a r e b u s y c o n s u l ti n g ,
s o m e t i m e s t h e y w il l c o n s u l t s e n i o r a d v o c a te s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . I
w a s n o t s u r e in t h is c a s e i f th e y w o u ld h a v e d o n e t h e c o n s u l t a ti o n o r
n o t , b u t m y b e li e f is t h a t i f t h e y f e e l u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h a n y a c tiv i ty
t h e y d o c o n s u l ta t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u s e e t h a t p r e s e n ts m e w i t h a d i ff ic u l ty M r

T h a b e th e b e c a u s e i t s a y s to m e y o u m a y h a v e c o n s u l t e d s o m e b o d y w h o
m a y h a v e l e f t v a r s i ty j u s t a fe w y e a r s b e fo r e , h a d n o t p r a c t ic e d la w,
a n d t h a t p e r s o n m a y n o t e v e n h a v e c o n s u l t e d a n y m o r e e x p e r ie n c e d
la w y e r a n d y o u g a v e t h i s p e r s o n t h is v e r y i m p o r ta n t a g r e e m e n t , t h e y
lo o k e d a t it , j u s t b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t c o n v e y t o y o u t h a t t h e y w e r e
u n c o m f o r t a b l e y o u w e r e c o m f o r ta b le .
I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t th a t t h e i m p o r ta n t t h in g w o u l d n o t b e
w h e t h e r t h e la w y e r is c o m f o r ta b le , i t i s w h e th e r y o u , t h e c l ie n t , is
c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t t h i s p e r s o n is t h e ty p e o f p e r s o n w h o h a s g o t th e
k n o w l e d g e , e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r t is e t h a t w o u ld m a k e y o u c o m f o r t a b le

20

t o b a s e y o u r d e c is i o n s o n h i s o r h e r a d v ic e .
D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e I a m c o mi n g fr o m ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.

Ye s s o i n o t h e r w o r d s I s h o u l d n o t s a y l o o k a t t h is

a g r e e m e n t te ll m e i f i t i s fi n e a n d if t h e p e r s o n s a y s I t h i n k i t is fi n e
a n d d o e s n o t in d ic a t e a n y d is c o m f o r t t h e n I a m v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e .

Page 134 of 187

No, I

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
w a n t t o k n o w a b o u t h o w m u c h d o e s t h a t p e r s o n k n o w i n th is f i e l d f o r
m e t o b e a b le t o b e c o m f o r ta b le .
I f I d o n o t k n o w h o w m u c h th e p e r s o n k n o w s I h a v e n o g r o u n d s
t o b e c o m f o r t a b le , b u t i f I s p e a k t o o t h e r p e o p l e w h o s e o p i n i o n I tr u s t
in t h e a r e a a n d t h e y s a y n o , n o , s o a n d s o is a v e r y g o o d la w y e r, h e is
e x p e r i e n c e d i n t h e s e m a t t e r s , h e h a s b e e n a r o u n d f o r a l o n g ti m e , th e n
you might have comfort, or if you know more about that person, but
w h e r e it is s o m e b o d y y o u d o n ’ t k n o w, y o u j u s t k n o w th e y a r e i n t h e
d e p a r t m e n t, y o u k n o w th e y v e r y ju n io r, th a t y o u k n o w, a n d t h i s
10

a g r e e m e n t r e l a t e s t o a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p r o j e c t in t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d i n
t h e P r o v in c e , b u t y o u a r e h a p p y t o r e l y o n t h e i r a d v ic e .

Th a t is m y

d i ff ic u l ty.
I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u r ju d g m e n t w o u ld h a v e s a i d th is
is a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p r o j e c t , i f I a m g o i n g t o s ig n a g r e e m e n t I m u s t h a v e
a d v ic e fr o m s e n i o r a n d e x p e r i e n c e d la w y e r s , d o y o u w a n t to c o m m e n t
on that?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a g r e e w it h

y o u C h a ir, th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a g o o d t h i n g t o d o , i n a n u m b e r o f
in s t a n c e s w e h a d r e f e r r e d s o m e w o r k , t h e l a w y e r s h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t
20

t h e y w o u l d n e e d a n e x t e r n a l l a w y e r to a s s i s t t h e m .
T h e n I d e v e l o p e d t h is u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t th e la w y e r w o u l d
in d i c a t e to y o u i f I a m n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h t h is I n e e d a d d i ti o n a l h e lp .
A n u m b e r o f th e m w h e r e th e y h a v e b e e n c o m f o r ta b le w e p r o c e e d e d w i th
t h a t , s o I tr u s t e d t h e j u d g m e n t t h a t t h e y w o u l d t h e n p r o v i d e to m e , b u t I
a g r e e w i t h y o u I c o u l d h a v e a ls o u s e d m y o w n j u d g m e n t .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u a c c e p t , d o n ’ t y o u , t h a t lo o k in g b a c k it w a s

w r o n g t o e n tr u s t s o m e th i n g s o i m p o r t a n t o r t o b a s e y o u r d e c i s i o n s t o
s ig n o r n o t t o s i g n t h is a g r e e m e n t o n t h e b a s i s o f th e a d v ic e o f
s o m e b o d y s o j u n i o r a n d s o m e b o d y w h o s e e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r ti s e
r e a l ly i n th e l e g a l f i e l d y o u d i d n o t k n o w ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I a g r e e C h a ir, I a lr e a d y a c c e p t e d i t

w h e n th e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s a d v i s e d m e i n t h is r e g a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e t h e y o u

w e r e i n th e p r o c e s s o f g iv i n g a n e x p la n a t io n o n t h e d e v i a t io n , j u s t a s
a n o p e n in g g a m b i t, t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s t h a t a r i s e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t y o u w e r e a b o u t t o s ta r t e x p l a i n i n g

t h e d e v i a ti o n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , g o a h e a d s ir.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e t h is p r a c t ic e C h a ir w a s n o t

o n ly th e p r a c t ic e i n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y p r o j e c t , t h is w a s th e g e n e r a l
p r a c ti c e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, p l e a s e r e m i n d m e w h a t p r a c tic e y o u a r e

r e fe r r i n g t o , I m a y h a v e m is s e d s o m e t h i n g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e o n e th a t I w a n t t o e x p l a i n C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, a lr ig h t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s , y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

M o n e y g e ts a ll o c a te d t o t h e

D e p a r t m e n t t o p r o v i d e s u p p o r t t o fa r m e r s , w e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I’ m s o r r y M r Th a b e t h e , i f y o u c o u l d j u s t ,

w e k n o w th a t t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t s o u r c e s , it w il l h e lp u s i f y o u a r e
s p e c i f ic a b o u t w h ic h m o n i e s w o u l d c o m e fo r f a r m e r s , j u s t w i t h e a c h
a l lo c a t io n j u s t e x p l a i n w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m , s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e – th e r e w e r e th r e e k i n d s o f

a l lo c a t io n s C h a ir, t h e Pr o v i n c i a l e q u i t a b l e s h a r e , w h ic h w a s t e r m e d
M a h o m a M o b u n g , w o u l d b e a l lo c a t e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t f o r f a r m e r
10

support.
Fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e w e w e r e r e c e iv i n g
c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t .

Th e o n e c a l le d C A S P w h ic h w a s t h e C o n d i ti o n a l

A g r ic u l t u r a l S u p p o r t Pr o g r a m m e – C o m p r e h e n s iv e A g r ic u l t u r a l S u p p o r t
P r o g r a m m e . A n d t h e r e w a s a n o th e r c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t w h ic h w a s c a l l e d
Il i m a L e ts e m a .

Th e s e tw o w e r e p a r t o f t h e D o R A a l l o c a ti o n s t h a t w ill

t h e n c o m e w it h c o n d it i o n s t o u s .

A v e r y s tr i c t c o n d i ti o n t h a t w i ll b e

e a r m a r k e d o n ly f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e f a r m e r.

W e w o u ld t h e n i n t h e

D e p a r t m e n t a ll o c a te t h is m o n e y u n d e r tr a n s f e r s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

W h y w o u l d y o u a ll o c a t e i t u n d e r

tr a n s fe r s ? I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o l o s e y o u r t r a i n o f t h o u g h t s o r r y b u t it is
i m p o r t a n t f o r u s to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

We – we had

a l lo c a t e d t h e m o n e y b e fo r e in t h e D e p a r t m e n t u n d e r t r a n s f e r s a n d w e
w i ll t h e n r e c e i v e th e m o n e y a s a p p r o v e d b y N a ti o n a l a n d th e Pr o v in c e
t h e n w e tr a n s f e r t h e m o n e y d i r e c t ly t o t h e b e n e fi c i a r y t o i m p l e m e n t t h e

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p r o j e c t . I d o n o t w a n t t o g o in t o d e t a i ls b u t w e s t r u g g l e d . W e m o v e d t o
t h e n e x t a s a d v i s e d . W e a ll o c a t e d t h e m o n e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y – o k a y I a m s o r r y M r Th a b e t h e I d o n o t w a n t t o
– y o u to g o t o o f a r w i t h o u t m e u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h is p a r t.

There were

f u n d s th a t y o u w o u l d r e c e iv e f r o m d i ffe r e n t s o u r c e s o r m a y b e fr o m o n e
s o u r c e . T h e r e w e r e fu n d s t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m Tr e a s u r y a n d w e r e
t h e r e f u n d s t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d a ls o f r o m th e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e – C h a ir …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n e r a ll y s p e a k in g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja there were three…
CHAIRPERSON: Sources.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Sources of the funds of support of

farmers.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h i n p a r ti c u la r f u n d s p r o v i d e d t o g iv e s u p p o r t t o

farmers?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay ja three sources.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Three sources yes.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a is t h e o n e s I h a v e m e n ti o n e d Tr e a s u r y, N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y, P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y a n d N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l tu r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o o n ly t w o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n ly tw o ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e tw o w i ll c o m e f r o m t h e N a ti o n a l
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e t w o c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A n d t h e o n e th a t c o m e s fr o m t h e

P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y c o m e s f r o m t h e E q u i t a b l e S h a r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o – b u t th o s e a r e t h e th r e e s o u r c e s y o u ta lk

a b o u t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h o s e a r e t h e t h r e e s o u r c e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y a lr ig h t .

And you were saying that you would

r e c e i v e t h o s e f u n d s a n d p u t t h e m u n d e r tr a n s f e r, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s a s w e r e c e i v e th e m t h e y a lr e a d y
c o m e – t h e y a lr e a d y g e t a ll o c a t e d t o s p e c i f ic p r o je c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o y o u k n o w w h e n y o u r e c e iv e th e

lu m p s u m y o u k n o w w h e r e i t s h o u l d g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y, o k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

S o o r i g i n a ll y t h e n a s w e r e c e i v e t h e

m o n e y w e w i ll t h e n d is p e r s e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
i m p l e m e n ta t io n .

A n d s e n d i t t o th e p r o je c t fo r

I t m e a n s fr o m u s – fr o m tr a n s fe r r e d w e s e n d t h e

m o n e y to t h e a c c o u n t o f th e b e n e f ic ia r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d o u r r e s p o n s ib il it y w i ll b e t h e n t o
a s s is t th e b e n e f ic ia r y.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n t h i s – i n th is i n s t a n c e w h e n y o u s a y

b e n e fic i a r y y o u n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t a p e r s o n o r a fa r m e r y o u a r e t a lk i n g
a b o u t t h e p r o je c t f o r w h ic h i t i s i n t e n d e d o r n o t r e a l ly ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t is b o t h C h a ir.

I n s o m e i n s ta n c e s

t h e p r o j e c t w il l b e r e g i s t e r e d in t h e n a m e o f a c o m p a n y o r a C C o r
w h a t e v e r fo r m , a tr u s t a n d s o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E n t i ty j a .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

In some instances the project

w i ll b e r e g i s t e r e d i n t h e n a m e o f a n i n d iv i d u a l fa r m e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. O k a y t h a n k y o u .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t e d c la r i fic a ti o n I i n te r r u p t e d y o u . Yo u m a y
p r o c e e d u n l e s s M s G c a b a s h e w a n t s to a s k s o m e t h i n g b e f o r e b u t I k n o w
in t e r r u p t e d y o u w h i le y o u w e r e c o n t in u in g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o p le a s e c o n ti n u e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

We – we had

p r o b le m s w i th t h a t b e c a u s e t h e b e n e f ic ia r ie s w e r e n o t s t ic k in g t o t h e
b u s i n e s s p l a n . T h e n w e h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h P r o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y. W e
c h a n g e d t h e g a z e t ti n g fr o m tr a n s fe r s t o g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s .
20

Now

h e n c e y e s t e r d a y I w a s s a y in g t h e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n tr a n s f e r s
a n d – w e a l lo c a t e d th e m o n e y t o g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s .

Goods and

s e r v ic e s …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But can I – yes you are about to explain
w h a t th o s e a r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . G o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s th e n m e a n t

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t o u s t o s a y th e D e p a r t m e n t is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s ,
y o u c a n n o t tr a n s f e r t h e m o n e y.

If you want to spend the money you

have to spend the money through the Department. It means you must
d o th e p r o je c t o n b e h a l f o f th e f a r m e r a n d h a n d i t o v e r t o th e f a r m e r. I t
m e a n s y o u m u s t a d v e r t is e a t e n d e r. I f s a y f o r a n e x a m p le y o u h a d t o
b u il d a d a ir y f o r t h i s fa r m e r t h e n y o u m u s t g o a n d a d v e r tis e a t e n d e r,
y o u m u s t g e t b i d d e r s a n d th e n th e y m u s t g o a n d e r e c t th e – o n th e
f a r m e r s la n d . N o w o n c e y o u h a v e c o m p l e te d y o u m u s t e n t e r th a t i n to
t h e a s s e t r e g is t e r. I t is a r e q u ir e m e n t . A n y m o n e y y o u h a v e s p e n t i n
10

g o v e r n m e n t u n d e r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s it m u s t g o i n t o y o u r a s s e t
r e g is t e r.

N o w y o u h a v e a p r o b le m o f h a v in g a n a s s e t in a l a n d t h a t

d o e s n o t b e l o n g t o g o v e r n m e n t. Yo u h a v e t h a t p r o b le m n u m b e r 1 . A n d
a ft e r y o u h a v e d o n e s o y o u h a v e t o d i s p o s e t h a t a s s e t to th e f a r m e r
a n d y o u c a n n o t d is p o s e i t a s a g o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g a z e tt e d
t h is m o n e y u n d e r g o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s i t m e a n s y o u h a v e to d is p o s e
t h e s e a s s e ts a n y – a n y a s s e t t h a t h a s a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o f v a l u e y o u
h a v e t o d i s p o s e i t th r o u g h t h e l e g is l a t u r e .

Yo u g o th r o u g h Tr e a s u r y

a n d i t g o e s t o th e le g is l a t u r e . L o o k in g a t t h e n u m b e r o f p r o j e c ts t h a t
w e w e r e g i v i n g s u p p o r t t o t h e f a r m e r s w e fe l t t h a t i t – i t g a v e u s a
20

p r o b le m b e c a u s e w e h a d a v e r y h u g e a s s e t r e g is t e r o f a s s e t s t h a t d i d
not belong to government.

S e c o n d ly w e h a d a p r o b le m o n t h e g r a n t

it s e l f. B e c a u s e th e g r a n t w a s s a y i n g t h is i s n o t m e a n t f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f
government.

S o y o u c a n n o t t a k e m o n e y t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n t o a

farmer and you put it in the asset register of government that you
c a n n o t d o t h a t . T h e n w e m o v e b a c k t o tr a n s f e r g iv e n th o s e c h a l l e n g e s

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h a t w e h a d . Yo u c a n n o t r e g is t e r – i t w a s a c o n d i t io n o f th e g r a n t . Yo u
c a n n o t r e g i s te r th a t a s s e t i n g o v e r n m e n t .

B u t i f y o u h a v e r e g is t e r e d

t h a t m o n e y u n d e r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s y o u c a n n o t e s c a p e fr o m n o t
r e g is t e r in g t h a t a s s e t u n d e r g o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e n d is p o s e i t to th e
b e n e fic i a r y. W e h a d a h u g e p r o b le m w it h t h e a u d i t a f te r w e h a v e d o n e
– b e c a u s e th e r e c o n c il ia t io n b e c a m e a p r o b l e m .

Yo u g o t o a p r iv a te

f a r m e r, y o u h a v e b o u g h t a tr a c t o r fo r t h i s f a r m e r a n d t h is th in g i s in
your asset.

Yo u g o th e r e y o u a r r iv e t h e fa r m e r h a s s o l d th e tr a c to r.

N o w th a t is i n y o u r a s s e t b u t y o u h a v e t o ld th e fa r m e r t h i s is y o u r
10

tr a c t o r. H e h a s s o ld t h e tr a c to r a n d y o u c a n n o t a c c o u n t o n t h e tr a c t o r
b e c a u s e i t is n o t – y o u w e r e n o t in c o n tr o l o f t h a t tr a c to r.
decided we have a problem again.

So we

W e h a v e t o g o b a c k t o tr a n s f e r s .

B e c a u s e t r a n s f e r s a c t u a ll y s a y s t h is m o n e y is n o t y o u r s . W e a r e g i v i n g
it to y o u t o p a s s i t o n to th e f a r m e r. B u t t h is ti m e w e a r e n o t g o in g t o
tr a n s fe r t h e m o n e y to t h e fa r m e r. W e w i l l d e v e l o p a n a g r e e m e n t a s a
D e p a r t m e n t a n d fi n d s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s w h o w il l a s s is t th e f a r m e r.
B e c a u s e i f y o u g iv e t h e m o n e y t o t h e f a r m e r th e m o n e y d o e s n o t g e t
s p e n t w h a t w e w a n t t o d o . W e w il l g e t a s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r t h a t w e w ill
t h e n – w e w ill i m p le m e n t t h e p r o j e c t o n b e h a l f o f th e f a r m e r b u t w e
20

protect the farmer by us as government signing an agreement with the
s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y t o th e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r w e a r e a p p o i n t i n g
y o u b u t a c t u a l ly y o u a r e a c ti n g o n b e h a l f o f th e fa r m e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w w e – w e s ig n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e y o u a p p r e c i a te w h a t I a m f in d in g tr i c k y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h e a r y o u C h a ir. I h e a r y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a p p o i n t – y o u a p p o i n t r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f th e

f a r m e r s o n t h e ir b e h a l f .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: YEs.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

But they – they sign an agreement

with us that they agree.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u m a k e s u r e t h e y g iv e y o u t h e m a n d a te t o …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The mandate yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

W e s ig n t h e a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e

s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r b u t th e y s i g n a n a g r e e m e n t w i th u s t o s a y w e a r e
a g r e e th a t y o u a p p o in t s o m e b o d y t o i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o je c t o r n o t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n w e h a d th e c o n tr o l
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w t h a t is w h a t w e d id . N o w c o m i n g
20

n o w to – to t h is p r o c e s s . N o w a ll th e o t h e r p r o j e c t s t h a t w e h a d d o n e
w e a s g o v e r n m e n t w e h a d b e e n a d v e r ti s i n g a n d s a y i n g w e n e e d
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s to a s s i s t o u r f a r m e r s . Th e n th e y w o u l d t e n d e r a n d
t h e n w e w i ll th e n g o b a c k t o th e f a r m e r s a n d s a y w e h a v e t h e f o ll o w i n g
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t.

I m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t A w e b e li e v e w e c a n p u t in

t h is d is tr ic t to a s s is t th e f a r m e r s o f th is d is t r ic t a n d s o o n a n d s o o n .

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W e w i ll t h e n tr a n s fe r t h e m o n e y t o t h e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t t h e n t h e y d o
t h e w o r k a n d t h e y r e p o r t. W e w i ll n o t tr a n s f e r a l l o f i t w e w il l tr a n s f e r i t
s o th a t w e a ls o s a fe g u a r d o u r s e lv e s t h a t i f a n y t h in g h a p p e n s t o t h i s
i m p l e m e n t a g e n t w e h a v e n o t lo s t a l l th e m o n e y. S o t h e y w i ll a n d d o
t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t c a n y o u p a u s e ju s t t h e r e p l e a s e M r

T h a b e th e . T h e p r o c e s s y o u a r e d e s c r ib in g w o u l d h a v e f o l lo w e d o n in
t e r m s o f t h e S C M P o lic y in th a t t h e r e w o u ld b e a b i d p r o c e s s , a
c o m p e ti t iv e p r o c e s s e tc e t e r a , e tc e t e r a .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e – C h a ir t h e m o n e y t h a t is

a l lo c a t e d u n d e r t r a n s f e r r e d d o e s n o t r e q u ir e t h a t p r o c e s s .
m o n e y is u n d e r t r a n s f e r s y o u p a s s i t o n .

Once the

Yo u d o n o t g o th r o u g h a

b i d d i n g p r o c e s s . T h a t is t h e a ll o c a ti o n . I t i s a t r a n s f e r it is n o t – y o u
a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o g o th r o u g h th e b i d d in g p r o c e s s . S o y o u r e c e iv e a
tr a n s fe r. I t c o m e s w i t h t h e c o n d i t io n t h a t i t is f o r th is p a r ti c u l a r p r o j e c t
y o u tr a n s fe r th e m o n e y to t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p r o j e c t . W e – w e h a d – w h y
w e d i d th a t i t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e v i o u s e x p e r ie n c e . W e t h e n – w e
c a m e u p w i th a s y s t e m t h a t w i ll h e l p u s t o m a k e s u r e th a t th is m o n e y
g o e s t o t h e i n te n d e d p u r p o s e .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A g a in I a m g o i n g to a s k y o u t o p a u s e . S o
y o u a r e h e r e r e fe r r i n g s tr i c t ly t o C A S P g r a n t s a n d t o Ili m a g r a n ts . A r e
t h o s e th e o n e s y o u a r e il l u s tr a t i n g n o w ? W h e r e i t w o u l d c o m e in o n –
w i t h c e r ta i n c o n d i t io n s a n d y o u s i m p ly p a s s it o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

A ls o t h e m o n e y t h a t w e h a d

r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e Pr o v i n c i a l E q u i t a b le S h a r e w e g a z e tt e d i t u n d e r

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tr a n s fe r s b e c a u s e o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t i t w il l s e r v e e x a c t ly t h e
same purpose.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h ic h – w h i c h p a r t o f t h e P F M A / Tr e a s u r y
R e g u l a ti o n s p e r m i t t e d y o u to g a z e t t e i t ? I u n d e r s t a n d th e fir s t t w o t h e
C A S P a n d t h e I li m a . T h e th ir d o n e I d o n o t q u i t e u n d e r s t a n d . It is in
t e r m s o f w h ic h p a r tic u la r r e g u l a ti o n th a t y o u c o u ld d o th a t o r p r o v i s i o n
in t h e P F M A ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir th e a l lo c a t io n o f t h e b u d g e t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh I see.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is d o n e b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u d e c i d e h o w m u c h y o u w a n t t o p u t
w h e r e a s y o u p r e s e n t y o u r b u d g e t t o Tr e a s u r y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o i t is th e b r o a d e r e x e r c i s e o f h o w y o u

a r e a ll o c a ti n g y o u r b u d g e t a s a d e p a r t m e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A s a d e p a r t m e n t t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

So – excuse me.

L e t m e g o b a c k t o t h e tw o I t h in k

t h e y a r e g r a n ts Il i m a a n d C A S P.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e y o u s a y in g t h a t S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t

p r e s c r i p t s d o n o t a p p ly to t h o s e o n e s b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t p r o c u r i n g
s e r v ic e s o r g o o d s , is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o – o k a y s o f o r th o s e o n e s t h o s e t w o ty p e s

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h o s e g o e s t o a tr a n s fe r – I g u e s s w h e n y o u s a y t r a n s f e r i t m e a n s
tr a n s fe r a c c o u n t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a n it e m .
CHAIRPERSON: It is an item oh.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r w h e r e y o u t h e n g a z e t t e t h e
m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o – s o i t i s n o t y o u r m o n e y ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s u p p o s e d t o tr a n s f e r i t t o s o m e b o d y ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To s o m e b o d y t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a n d y o u s a y i n r e g a r d t o t h a t S u p p ly C h a i n
Management does not apply?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But the checks and balances that relate to
t h a t ty p e o f tr a n s f e r t h e C A S P a n d th e Il i m a tr a n s fe r i s th a t t h e
N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t m o n i t o r s a n d c a n w it h d r a w ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h o s e g r a n ts .

20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. W h a t – h e n c e
in th e p a s t w e h a d p r o b le m s .

W h e n t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t c o m e s

a n d s a y w e h a v e a ll o c a t e d t o t h e P r o v in c e th e a p p r o v a l o f th e s e
p r o j e c ts w e w a n t t o g o a n d s e e th e m .

Yo u s a i d t o u s y o u w e r e

s u p p o s e d t o b u y a tr a c t o r, y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p u t a w i n d m i ll o r
fences whatever that was approved can we go and see. Then when you

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
h a d d o n e a tr a n s f e r y o u g o t h e r e a n d y o u d o n o t f in d t h o s e t h i n g s . Yo u
c a n n o t e x p l a i n . T h e n w e s a id b u t t h e p r o b l e m is t h a t w e s h o u l d h a v e
p u t c o n tr o ls in p la c e a n d t h o s e w e r e th e c o n t r o ls t h a t w e h a d p u t i n
p l a c e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e m o n e y th a t h a s b e e n i n v e s t e d w e a r e u n d e r
c o n tr o l w e w il l b e a b l e t o g e t t h o s e a s s e t s . A n d I c a n c o n fir m C h a ir i t
i m p r o v e d . W e w e r e a b l e e v e n w h e n th e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e c o m e s a n d
s a y h o w f a r h a v e y o u g o n e w i t h y o u r [ i n d i s t in c t ] c a n y o u s h o w u s th o s e
p r o j e c ts w e w e r e a b l e to s h o w.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

B u t le t u s t h e n t a lk a b o u t t h e D o R A

a l lo c a t io n t h a t w o u ld c o m e in t o P r o v i n c e t h e v o t e o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t w o u ld b e Vo t e 11 , a m I r i g h t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w fr o m Vo t e 11 y o u w o u ld t h e n h a v e t o
b u d g e t a n d d e c i d e o n w h e r e y o u a r e a ll o c a ti n g w h a t y o u h a v e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a ir b y t h e ti m e t h e D o R A

a l lo c a t io n fr o m N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t c o m e s y o u – w e a s a d e p a r t m e n t
o n th e P r o v i n c e w e h a d a lr e a d y g o n e t h e r e a n d p r e s e n te d t h e p r o j e c ts
a n d t h e n a m e s a n d t h e a m o u n ts . I f t h e n t h e r e w a s w h a t w e c a ll e d t h e
N a t io n a l A s s e s s m e n t P a n e l a t N a t i o n a l .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

N o w t h e N a ti o n a l As s e s s m e n t P a n e l

w i ll th e n a p p r o v e t h o s e p r o j e c ts . T h e n m o n e y w i ll b e a l lo c a t e d t o t h e
p r o v i n c e a s p e r t h o s e a p p r o v e d p r o j e c ts . I f th e v a l u e … …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Can ..
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I f t h e v a l u e o f t h e p r o j e c t s th a t w e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
h a d s u b m i t te d a n d g o t a p p r o v e d w a s e q u i v a l e n t t o R 1 0 0 m il li o n w e w il l
t h e n r e c e iv e th e R 1 0 0 m i l li o n .

W e w o u l d t h e n h a v e g a z e t t e d th a t

m o n e y u n d e r tr a n s fe r s i n t h e P r o v i n c e . S o w h e n t h e M E C g o e s a n d
r e a d s h i s b u d g e t s p e e c h h e w il l t h e n b e a b l e t o s a y u n d e r f a r m e r
s u p p o r t w e h a v e t h i s a m o u n t o f m o n e y a n d t h i s i s th e lis t o f th e
p r o j e c ts t h a t w e a r e g o in g to s u p p o r t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

N o w t h e in t e n t io n o f S e c t io n 2 1 7 o f T h e

C o n s t i tu t io n c o m i n g d o w n t o P F M A Tr e a s u r y R e g u la t io n s a s w e
d is c u s s e d y e s te r d a y i s t o i n tr o d u c e e q u it y in t o t h e s y s t e m .
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV

LEAH

GCABASHE

SC:

Tr a n s p a r e n c y

i n to

the

system,

c o m p e ti t iv e n e s s i n t e r m s o f ju s t m a k i n g s u r e th e r e is v a lu e f o r m o n e y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W i t h D o R A g r a n t h e l p m e w i t h th a t o n e ?

B e c a u s e I t h i n k I m o r e o r l e s s g r a s p th e c o n d it i o n a l g r a n ts . H o w – w it h
t h e D o R A E q u i t a b l e p o r ti o n g r a n t h o w d o y o u m o n i t o r t h e m a n n e r i n
w h ic h th a t m o n e y is s p e n t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w h e n t h a t b u d g e t g e t s r e le a s e d
y o u a lr e a d y k n o w t o w h o m is i t g o i n g .
20

S o t h e r e is n o c o m p e t i ti o n

b e c a u s e i f th e m o n e y g e ts a ll o c a t e d t o u s a n d w e k n o w fr o m th is to t a l
a m o u n t o f t h is b u d g e t s o m u c h is f o r th a t p r o j e c t f o r s o a n d s o , th is o n e
is f o r s o a n d s o .

W e r e c e iv e d i t a n d u n d e r s tr i c t c o n d i ti o n s fr o m

N a t io n a l th a t y o u c a n o n l y u s e it fo r th e i n te n d e d p u r p o s e . N o w th a t –
t h a t is w h a t w e h a v e . N o w t h e c o r r e c t th i n g t o d o is j u s t to p a s s i t o n
t o t h e p r o je c t a n d t o t h e o w n e r b u t w e w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is

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u s e d fo r th e p u r p o s e i n te n d e d . S o w e w e r e p u t t in g s y s t e m s i n p la c e to
m a k e s u r e th a t th is m o n e y g e t u s e d fo r t h e i n t e n d e d p u r p o s e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D e s c r i b e a n y o n e o f th o s e s y s t e m s t h a t

y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o ? To h e lp – j u s t to il lu s tr a te t h e p o i n t.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e o n e t h a t I h a v e e x p l a i n e d C h a ir
w a s t h a t w e w il l t h e n i d e n t i fy a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t. W e w i ll a p p o i n t
a n i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t t h e n m a k e t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t i m p le m e n t
t h e p r o j e c t o n b e h a l f o f t h e f a r m e r a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t w il l t h e n b e
s a ti s f i e d t o b e a b l e to r e p o r t to s a y y e s in d e e d t h i s m o n e y w a s
10

a l lo c a t e d t o th is p a r t ic u l a r f a r m e r a n d th is is w h a t h a s b e e n a c h i e v e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m b a c k a t m y is s u e t h a t I r a is e d w i t h

y o u y e s t e r d a y in a d i ff e r e n t c o n t e x t a b o u t f o r m o v e r s u b s t a n c e .
form being you have done your part.
i m p l e m e n ti n g

agent.

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t .

Yo u

have

The

Yo u h a v e a p p o in t e d a n

tr a n s f e r r e d

the

money

to

the

A n d t h is is a v e r y g o o d e x a m p l e t h e a g r e e m e n t

w i t h Es t in a .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e y w e r e a n i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t.

We

c a n d e a l w i t h t h e o t h e r is s u e s la t e r.
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t in t h is a g r e e m e n t b y w a y o f e x a m p l e
y o u t h e n h a v e s u b - c o n tr a c t o r s w h o c a n b e e m p l o y e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t c o n tr o l w o u ld t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a v e

o v e r n o t o n l y th e a p p o in t m e n t o f s u b - c o n tr a c to r s b u t t h e p a y m e n t o f

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t h o s e s u b - c o n tr a c to r s ?
e tc e t e r a ?

Th e v e r i fic a ti o n o f t h e ir in v o ic e s e tc e te r a ,

Yo u s e e M r D o c to r M a s i te n g d e s c r i b e d t h i s a s a s o m e t h in g

s i m il a r to a tu r n k e y p r o j e c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Please explain I just want to understand

t h e m o n i t o r i n g h o w y o u k n o w y o u g o t v a l u e fo r m o n e y fr o m th a t
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t y o u a p p o i n t e d a n d th a t y o u r b e n e fi c i a r i e s a r e
s a ti s f i e d c u s t o m e r s o f th e D e p a r t m e n t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

J a th a n k y o u C h a ir.

We have to

r e c e i v e m o n th ly r e p o r ts f r o m t h e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e
p r o g r e s s . W e n o r m a l ly s a y – w e s a y t o t h e m y o u m u s t u s e o u r s y s te m s
b u t w e c a n n o t ta k e th o s e s y s t e m s i n t o g o v e r n m e n t . W e s a y b e f o r e y o u
b u y d o th r e e q u o t a ti o n s . D o c o m p a r e s d o n o t j u s t g o t o a s h o p a n d s a y
b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t a tr a c to r I a m t h e r e f o r e b u y in g t h is tr a c t o r a n d I a m
d e li v e r i n g t o th e f a r m e r. W e s a y t o t h e m d o y o u r d u e d i li g e n c e . W h e n
w e d o o u r m o n i t o r in g w e c o m e i n a n d w e s a y y o u h a v e b o u g h t t h is
tr a c t o r t h e f a r m e r w h e r e a r e th e q u o te s t h a t y o u h a v e g o t? T h e n t h e y
w i ll b e a b l e t h e n t o p r o v i d e i t t o u s a n d s a y w e h a v e d o n e a q u o t a t i o n
h e r e a n d h e r e h e n c e w e h a v e b o u g h t th is t r a c t o r.

20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I n t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h o s e jo b w a s it t o

m o n i t o r th a t e x p e n d i tu r e ? I k n o w i t c o u ld n o t b e th e H O D b e c a u s e h e
s i ts r i g h t a t th e to p ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O n th e g r o u n d w h o s e fu n c t io n w a s i t to

m o n i t o r th a t e x p e n d i t u r e ?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t b e c o m e s t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f th e
C h i e f D i r e c t o r b u t h e h a s g o t e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r s o n t h e g r o u n d t h a t
w o r k s d i r e c t ly w i t h th e p r o j e c t t h a t in t e r a c t o n a d a i ly b a s is w i t h t h e
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t to a s s is t t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s t o m a k e s u r e th a t
p r o j e c ts g e ts d e li v e r e d . S o o n a d a ily b a s i s w h e n t h e y d o n o t – t h e y g o
a n d d o q u o t a t i o n s th e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r is t h e r e ; is a b l e t o a d v i s e b o th
t h e fa r m e r a n d t h e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t .

I n c e r ta in i n s t a n c e s f o r a n

e x a m p l e i f y o u a r e to a c q u ir e c a tt l e f o r t h e f a r m e r t h e y a ls o b r in g th e
f a r m e r a lo n g t o lo o k a t t h e c a t tl e t h a t t h e y a r e b u y i n g f o r h i m if h e
10

a g r e e s h e s a y s y e s t h e s e a r e t h e c a t t le I w a n t t h e n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
process goes on.

So there has been checks and balances on the

g r o u n d d o n e b y t h e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r a n d a l s o th e C h i e f D i r e c t o r h a s
t h a t r e s p o n s ib il i ty. B e c a u s e h e is r e s p o n s ib l e – t h e r e a r e d ir e c t o r s i n
t h e d is tr ic t , e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r s a n d t h e n t h e C h i e f D ir e c to r o v e r s e a s t h e
w h o le p r o c e s s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I k n o w I a m m o v i n g f o r w a r d r a t h e r r a p i d ly
I a m s til l g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k to t h e t e c h n ic a li ty a r o u n d t h e d e v i a t i o n .
B u t c a n I d e b a te t h i s c h e c k s a n d b a la n c e s is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l h a n g o n Ms G c a b a s h e I a l s o s t il l w a n t t o s t a y o n
20

these.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w e c a l l i t d e v i a t io n m a y b e w e d o n o t c a ll i t

d e v i a ti o n th a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t . L e t m e a s k s o m e q u e s t io n s b e f o r e
y o u m o v e o n . W h e n y o u s a i d in r e s p e c t o f t h e t w o I t h i n k g r a n ts C A S P
g r a n ts a n d t h e o t h e r o n e .

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M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ili m a L e t s e m a C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I l i m a j a . W h e n y o u s a i d y o u w o u ld t h e n – y o u w o u ld
g e t a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w h o w o u ld th e n e ff e c ti v e ly a s s i s t th e f a r m e r b u t
y o u g e t a n a g r e e m e n t fr o m th e f a r m e r t h a t a m a n d a t e th a t y o u c a n
a p p o i n t th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r. T h a t w a s in r e g a r d t o I li m a a n d C A S P o r
d i d I m i s u n d e r s ta n d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s w i t h r e g a r d t o …
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t e x a m p l e d i d i t a p p ly to th a t o r d i d i t a p p l y to

m o r e th a n th o s e tw o ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It a p p li e d t o a l l t h e t h r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll t h e t h r e e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w th e t h i r d o n e b e i n g t h e o n e y o u g e t fr o m
Tr e a s u r y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e o n e – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is th a t th e o n e y o u s a i d i s f r o m D o R A i s D o R A ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o R A j u s t r e m in d m e I – t h e D o R A .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

20

I t is n o t t h e D o R A o n e C h a ir.

The

D o R A is th e t w o t h a t c o m e s fr o m N a ti o n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is fr o m th e d iv is io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e D o R A o n e t h is d o e s n o t a p p l y t o t h e D o R A t h i s
e x a m p l e d o e s n o t a p p ly t o t h e D o R A ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It a p p li e s to a l l o f t h e m .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : To a ll o f t h e m .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To a l l o f th e m b u t t h e o n e th a t c o m e s
fr o m t h e P r o v i n c e i s t h e P r o v in c i a l E q u i t a b le S h a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E q u it a b l e S h a r e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a it is n o t t h e o n e th a t c o m e s fr o m
N a t io n a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Now were you saying that the Supply Chain

M a n a g e m e n t p r e s c r ip ts a n d p o l ic ie s a n d p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic i e s a p p ly
w h e n y o u a r e g o i n g t o u s e t h e E q u i ta b l e t h e o n e fr o m t h e E q u i t a b l e
10

S h a r e b u t n o t t o t h o s e t h a t c o m e fr o m C A S P a n d Il i m a a n d D o R A i s th a t
w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g o r h a v e I m i s u n d e r s t o o d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. W h a t a p p l i e s is w h e r e y o u
h a v e g a z e tt e d i t . It d o e s n o t m a t te r w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m b u t w h e n y o u
d o y o u r b u d g e t g a z e t t in g w h e r e d i d y o u a l l o c a te t h e m o n e y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o y o u t a lk a b o u t g a z e tt i n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s – I t a k e i t t h a t m e a n s p u b li s h w h a t y o u s a i d i n a

g o v e r n m e n t g a z e t t e , is th a t r ig h t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th e M E C h a s –
20

y o u s u b mi t t h a t t h e M E C g o e s a n d p r e s e n t t h e b u d g e t Vo t e a n d t h e n
t h e le g i s l a tu r e m u s t p a s s i t.
CHAIRPERSON: YEs.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h e n i t g o e s t o t h e g a z e t te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in h is b u d g e t v o t e t h e M E C w o u ld i n d ic a te w h a t
w o u ld f a l l u n d e r tr a n s f e r s ?

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M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u s a y i f f u n d s fa ll u n d e r tr a n s f e r s t h e n

procurement prescripts do not apply?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u s a y in g ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

J a t h a t w a s – t h a t w a s c o r r e c t u n ti l

A p r il 2 0 1 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

T h e n N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y r e l e a s e d a

n e w i n s tr u c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n s tr u c t io n N o t e .

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s a y in g a c tu a l ly d o e s a p p l y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e n e w i n s tr u c ti o n n o t e s w a s t h e n

s a y in g t h i s is n o w th e w a y i t h a s c h a n g e d n o w s i n c e M a y 2 0 1 8 b u t t h e y
h a v e s a id i t w a s r e tr o s p e c t iv e fr o m 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h e n th a t h a s n o w c h a n g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e r e a r e s y s te m s t h a t t h e y h a v e

b e e n p u t in p la c e n o w to s a y e v e n if t h e m o n e y h a s b e e n p u t u n d e r
tr a n s fe r t h e s e a r e th e fo ll o w i n g p r o c e s s e s t h a t y o u n e e d t o f o l l o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w w h a t is i t t h a t e x c lu d e d t h e r e q u i r e m e n t f o r
p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s fr o m a p p l ic a ti o n i f fu n d s t h a t w e r e g o i n g to b e
u s e d f e l l u n d e r tr a n s fe r s w h e r e – w h a t i s i t th a t w a s t h e b a s i s f o r t h e

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v ie w t h a t i f fu n d s h a v e b e e n p u t u n d e r tr a n s f e r s t h e n p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e s s e s d o n o t a p p ly ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h e r e - t h e r e w e r e k i n d s o f

e n t e r p r i s e s th a t y o u w o u l d n o t g o a n d b i d f o r. L ik e w h e n y o u tr a n s f e r
m o n e y to a f a r m e r.

L ik e f o r e x a m p l e y o u tr a n s f e r r i n g G o v e r n m e n t

m o n e y t o a n N G O t o i m p l e m e n t a p r o c e s s f o r y o u . Yo u w i ll g a z e t te th a t
m o n e y u n d e r tr a n s fe r a n d - a n d y o u n o t e w h ic h N G O y o u w a n t to - to
tr a n s fe r t h e m o n e y.
S o y o u w il l n o t g o a n d p u b l is h a te n d e r t o s a y I - I n e e d - I
10

n e e d s o m e b o d y to c o m e a n d b i d f o r t h is m o n e y f o r t h i s p a r ti c u l a r
p u r p o s e . Yo u h a d a lr e a d y - i t is - it is fo r e x a m p l e l ik e y o u h a v e g o t - I
- I want to use another example …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l o b v i o u s ly …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Outside.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u - y o u i n v i te b id s w h e n y o u h a v e n o t m a d e a n y

d e c is i o n …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: About who the person is that you want to be involved
in t h e p r o j e c t ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i f y o u a l r e a d y k n o w t h e n g o i n g - d o i n g b i d s
e v e n i f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a r e a p p l ic a b l e w o u l d b e j u s t g o i n g
through the motions?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th a t - t h a t i s o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g s ir

b e c a u s e a s - a s t h e m o n e y c a m e w e - w e h a d a lr e a d y a p p r o v e d

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p r o j e c ts t o s a y t h is m o n e y is g o i n g t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r f a r m e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ; b u t i f y o u a r e g o i n g to a p p o in t a n i m p l e m e n t in g
a g e n t e v e n in t h e e x a m p l e o f a f a r m e r. Yo u - y o u m i g h t - th e fu n d s - i f
y o u a r e g o in g t o tr a n s fe r th e f u n d s to t h e f a r m e r y o u m i g h t n o t b e
b u y i n g g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s fr o m t h e f a r m e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f y o u a r e g o i n g to a p p o in t a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t
w h o is g o i n g to d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s in o r d e r f o r s o m e th in g t o b e
s u c c e s s fu l . Yo u a r e g o i n g t o b e g e t ti n g s e r v ic e s . Is i t n o t ?
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e r e - t h e r e i s n o d ir e c t b e n e fi t
fr o m G o v e r n m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h y d o y o u a p p o i n t th e a g e n t t h e n …
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : If - i f y o u - i f t h e r e i s n o b e n e fi t fo r - f o r y o u ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

B e c a u s e o u r p r e v io u s e x p e r i e n c e o f

g iv i n g t h e m o n e y d ir e c t ly t o th e f a r m e r w e h a d e x p e r i e n c e d p r o b l e m s .
S o w e h a d t o c o m e w i th a - a s o lu t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h y d o y o u n o t l e a v e i t t o th e fa r m e r to a p p o in t
w h o e v e r t h e y w a n t t o a p p o i n t? W h y d o y o u i n s is t t h a t y o u m u s t b e th e
20

o n e s w h o - w h o a p p o in t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir - C h a ir e x a c tly t h e p r o b l e m o f

a c c o u n t a b i li ty. N o w …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d o y o u g e t a b e n e f it o r d o y o u n o t g e t a b e n e f it

fr o m t h e a g e n t?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I - d ir e c t - t h e d e p a r t m e n t d o e s n o t

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g e t a n y b e n e f i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u c a n d o w i t h o u t th e m ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e c a n d o w i th o u t t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e w o u ld b e n o p r o b l e m ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th e r e w il l b e p r o b l e ms C h a ir b e c a u s e
y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o - t o h a v e a p r o je c t t h a t w e i n t e n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i s t h e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t y o u - y o u w a n t f a r m e r s t o
b e a s s is t e d in a c e r ta i n w a y.

Yo u w a n t t o a s s i s t t h e f a r m e r s a c t u a ll y

yourself.
10

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

In d e e d u n d e r a c e r t a i n r e g i m e y o u c o u ld h a v e

p e r s o n n e l i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t th a t y o u c a n s e n d a n d s a y g o a n d a s s i s t
t h e s e fa r m e r s t o b e s u c c e s s f u l w i t h w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g a n d y o u p a y
those people yourselves.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is o n e r e g i m e i n w h ic h y o u - y o u c o u l d d o t h i s

b u t a n o th e r r e g i m e is t h a t y o u g e t s o m e b o d y fr o m o u ts id e t h e
G o v e r n m e n t w h o h a s th e s k i ll s th a t y o u b e l ie v e a r e n e c e s s a r y i n o r d e r
t o m a k e t h e fa r m e r s s u c c e s s f u l. S o y o u - y o u s a y th is p e r s o n h a s g o t
20

g o o d s k ill s . S o t h is p e r s o n m u s t b e - m u s t p r o v i d e - m u s t p r o v i d e t h e
a s s is t a n c e a n d is th e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t y o u p a y t h e m f o r th e i r s e r v i c e s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r - C h a ir y o u a r e c o r r e c t t h a t
w e h a d p e r s o n n e l i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h w e h a v e u s e d to a s s is t t h e
f a r m e r. T h e o n ly d i ffe r e n c e i s t h a t i f y o u d o t h a t t h e n y o u m u s t g a z e tt e
t h e m o n e y u n d e r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s . Th e n ( i n te r v e n e s ) .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h y d o y o u n o t w a n t to d o t h a t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h e n w e h a d t h e p r o b l e m C h a ir o f

h a v i n g t o r e g is t e r th o s e a s s e ts y o u h a v e b o u g h t f o r t h e f a r m e r in t o y o u r
a s s e t r e g is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e th a t w e m i g h t n e e d t o - t o l o o k a t t h is l a t e r
o n m u c h m o r e b u t a s th in g s s ta n d fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t o m e . I t
does seem that you have a project which you want to be successful and
y o u n e e d c e r t a i n s e r v ic e s in o r d e r f o r i t t o b e s u c c e s s f u l a n d y o u b r in g
in a n a g e n t .
10

Yo u c a ll t h e m a n i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t .

They - they

implement your project and unto the one who pays them.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u p a y t h e m ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y - w h a t d o y o u p a y th e m f o r ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, w e - w e tr a n s f e r t h e m o n e y f o r
t h e m t o i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o j e c t . I t is - i t is n o t lik e w e a r e p a y in g t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u - y o u h a v e s o m e th in g t h a t y o u w a n t t h e m t o
do …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s p r o v i d i n g c e r t a i n s e r v ic e s …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u t r a n s f e r th e m o n e y fr o m w h ic h th e y g e t p a i d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. T h e y g e t p a i d - e v e n if i t
is t h e m o r t h e f a r m e r h a s a p p o i n t e d s o m e b o d y e ls e to c o m e a n d
i m p l e m e n t. T h a t p a y m e n t s ti ll h a p p e n s . W h o e v e r y o u h a v e a p p o i n te d

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to come and do the job.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Yo u s ti ll d o t h e p a y m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e m ig h t h a v e t o d e a l w i t h i t - a t s o m e o t h e r
ti m e .

M s G c a b a s h e le t m e a l lo w y o u t o m o v e to t h e a r e a t h a t y o u

wanted to move to.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I w a s a c t u a ll y g o in g
t o d e a l w i t h s o m e o f th e i s s u e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t y o u h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i t h b u t t h a t
is f i n e . I s ti ll h a v e m o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . S o th e fir s t o n e Mr T h a b e t h e r e la t e s
t o t h e q u e s t io n o f g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s a n d w h e r e th a t a s s e t s i ts i f y o u
a r e g o i n g t o c o m p ly w i th t h e S C M P o l ic y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

L e t u s t a k e t h e e x a m p le o n e o f t h e

w i t n e s s e s m a y h a v e m e n t io n e d i t o r I - I m i g h t h a v e r e a d a b o u t th is .
L e t u s ta k e t h e e x a m p le o f th e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: I am - I am sorry Ms Gcabashe. We forgot to mention
s o m e t h i n g . W e h a v e a r r a n g e d to p r o c e e d - c o n t in u e u n t il 5 o ’ c l o c k . I
t a k e i t y o u h a v e n o p r o b l e m M r T h a b e t h e w i t h t h is .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I j u s t w a n t e d t o m e n ti o n th a t b e c a u s e o r d i n a r il y

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
p e o p l e e x p e c t th a t w e w o u l d - w e w o u l d s t o p a t f o u r.

S o w e w il l

c o n ti n u e u n t il 5 o ’ c l o c k . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n a n d y o u w i ll c o r r e c t
m e in m y i n t e r p r e t a ti o n b e c a u s e t h i s is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d t h e s i t u a t i o n .
S o y o u - y o u h a v e th e F r e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n . W e c a l l it
the FDC.

Ta k in g o v e r t h e r u n n in g o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m .

I know

t h e r e is a l o t w e a r e s t ill g o in g t o d is c u s s b u t a ll o w m e t o u s e t h is
example.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e a s s e ts th a t s i t o n a n a n d a t th a t d a ir y
f a r m w h o d o t h o s e t h e n b e lo n g t o b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r
e v i d e n c e th e y w o u l d n o t b e l o n g t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t th e g o o d s a n d
s e r v ic e s . S o t h o s e c a t tl e , th e f e e d , t h e m a c h i n e r y, t h e e q u i p m e n t F D C
is c o m p e l le d - m y w o r d - t o r e g is t e r t h o s e it e m s a s F D C i t e m s b u t t h e y
d o n o t b e l o n g t o t h e FD C .
Is t h a t n o t a p r o b le m i n i t s e l f in - i n n o t h a v i n g a w a y o f
d e a li n g w i th t h o s e g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t - a s t h e
department that would own them?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

20

We - we would not owe them Chair

b e c a u s e o f th e c o n d i ti o n s o f t h e g r a n t . S o y o u c a n n o t d e v i a t e fr o m t h e
c o n d i ti o n o f t h e g r a n t b e c a u s e t h e c o n d i ti o n o f t h e g r a n t s a y s t h e
b e n e fic i a r y o f a l l a s s e ts t h a t c o m e s fr o m t h is a ll o c a ti o n i s th e f a r m e r.
S o y o u w o u l d n o t t h e n ta k e t h e s e a s s e ts a n d p a y - t h e c o n d i t io n s a y s i f
y o u d o th a t t h e n y o u m u s t r e p a y t h e m o n e y b a c k b e c a u s e t h e
d e p a r t m e n t h a s b e n e fi t e d .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
I t is n o t i n t e n d e d fo r t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e S t a te . I t i s in t e n d e d
f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e f a r m e r. S o y o u w o u ld n o t t a k e th o s e a s s e ts a n d
r e g is t e r th e m i n t h e a s s e t r e g i s t e r o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H o w e v e r i f y o u h a d u s e d p a r t o f th e

p r o v i n c i a l a ll o c a ti o n t o c a p i ta li s e t h e p r o j e c t .

So I accept your

e x p l a n a t io n f o r ( i n d is t in c t ) . I f y o u h a d u s e d o t h e r m o n e y t o c a p it a lis e
t h e p r o je c t t h a t m o n e y i s th e n u s e d to b u y c a t tl e a n d t r a c t o r s e t c e t e r a .
T h o s e t h i n g s w o u l d n o r m a l ly b e c a ll e d g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o o w n s - a n d I s u p p o s e I a m a ls o

lo o k in g a t th e c o n te x t o f t h e ir b e in g n o b e n e fic i a r i e s r e a l ly f o r t h e
E s ti n a P r o j e c t - w h o o w n s t h o s e i te m s M r T h a b e t h e b e t w e e n th e ti m e
t h a t t h e y a r e p u r c h a s e d a n d t h e t i m e th e b e n e fic i a r i e s a r e u l ti m a t e l y
r e g is t e r e d f o r m a lly s o a s b e n e fic i a r i e s ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir h e n c e t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t
o f A g r i c u l tu r e m a k e s i t a c o n d i t io n t h a t b e fo r e t h e y r e l e a s e t h e m o n e y
y o u m u s t p r o v i d e t h e m w i t h t h e l is t o f b e n e f ic ia r i e s .
r e q u ir e m e n t .

Th e y n e e d t o k n o w a s th e y r e l e a s e t h e m o n e y i t i s

in t e n d e d fo r t h e f o l lo w in g p e o p l e .
20

That is the

Th e n w e w il l - t h e y - t h e y h a v e a

s p e c i f ic r e q u ir e m e n t t o s a y w e n e e d t h e n a m e s .
W e n e e d th e i r I D n u m b e r s s o t h a t a s t h e y r e l e a s e t h e m o n e y
t h e n th e y k n o w t o w h o m i t b e l o n g s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h e q u e s ti o n w a s fr o m th e t i m e t h e y a r e

p u r c h a s e d t o th e ti m e t h e y - I th in k - g i v e n t o th e b e n e fi c i a r y w h o is t h e
o w n e r.

N o w y o u - y o u fr o m th e p e r s p e c ti v e o f l a w y e r s t h e y m a y b e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t h i n k i n g a l o t o f t h i n g s a r is in g fr o m t h a t q u e s t io n b u t I th in k y o u a r e
s u p p o s e d t o j u s t a n s w e r i t a s a n o n - l a w y e r.
u n d e r s t a n d in g a t a f a c tu a l l e v e l ?

W h a t w o u ld b e y o u r

W h o w o u l d c l a i m r i g h ts to t h a t - t o

t h e m d u r in g th a t p e r i o d ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e f a r m e r i s t h e o w n e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e y o u h a v e a n

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a r e y o u c a l li n g t h a t p e r s o n th e fa r m e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

No

-

no

C h a ir.

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t i s n o t th e o w n e r o f t h e a s s e t .

The

-

th e

H is j o b i s t o

i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o j e c t o n b e h a lf o f t h e fa r m e r. H e n c e w e - w e a p p o in t
t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g - s o w e h e i s n o t t h e o w n e r o f t h e a s s e t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I h e a r y o u a n d I w il l t h i n k a b o u t w h a t
y o u a r e s a y i n g . J u s t t o d ig e s t a n d - a n d tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d i t . I w i ll
g r a p p l e w it h it b e c a u s e I k n o w I c a n c o m e b a c k a n d a s k a g a in w h e r e I
s t il l d o n o t h a v e c l a r it y b u t c a n I a s k a r e la t e d q u e s t io n ? Yo u s e e t h e
d i ff ic u l ty w i th i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n ts i s th a t i t i s v e r y d i ff ic u l t - i t is v e r y
d i ff ic u l t to m o n i t o r th e m c l o s e l y b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e p e r s o n s w h o y o u
tr a n s fe r t h e l u m p s u m to . A m I r ig h t ?
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e l u m p s u m i s th e n u s e d to p a y n o t o n ly
for goods.

I w il l c a l l t h o s e th e c a t tl e , t h e tr a c t o r s e tc e te r a b u t f o r

s e r v ic e s a s w e ll .

W h e r e th o s e s e r v i c e s a r e i n fl a te d w h a t r e m e d y d o

y o u h a v e ? H o w d o y o u m o n i t o r t h e p a y m e n t o f m o n i e s fo r s e r v ic e s th a t
h a v e b e e n i n fl a t e d ? N o w y o u b e i n g t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f c o u r s e .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I a m - I a m tr y i n g t o t h in k C h a ir
o f - o f s e r v ic e s b e c a u s e t h e r e - t h e r e - a s e r v ic e c o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g
t h a t y o u w a n t s o m e b o d y t o c o m e a n d - a n d d o - s o i l s a m p l e s a n d th e
person comes on the farm and - and does soil samples and then the
p e r s o n in v o ic e s y o u t o s a y t h is is w h a t I w a n t y o u t o p a y m e f o r th e
s a m p le s t h a t I h a v e d o n e a n d t h i s is w h a t - a n d t h e s e a r e y o u r s o i l
s a m p le s .
T h e n - t h e n t h e - t h e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t p a y s t h e p e r s o n fo r
- fo r t h a t s e r v ic e . I f I w e r e a fa r m e r a n d s o m e b o d y c o m e s t o m y f a r m
10

a n d - a n d i n v o ic e s m e f o r s o il s a m p l e s I w il l h a v e a n i n d i c a t io n a n
u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t b u t I h a v e n e v e r s e e n s o i l s a m p l e s t h is e x p e n s i v e .
T h e n I w i ll b e a b l e to s a y b u t th e r e i s s o m e th in g n o t r i g h t h e r e . T h e s e
s o i l s a m p l e s a r e to o e x p e n s iv e .
S o th a t - t h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t I h a v e .

That if you

in fl a t e t h e n i t w il l b e n o . T h a t t h is is to o e x p e n s i v e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e ll l e t u s g o t o a r e a l e x a m p l e a n d a g a in
I a m s ti ll s k i r t i n g a r o u n d t h e w h o le Vr e d e D a ir y is s u e . W e - w e w i ll g e t
t h e r e . I f y o u g o to t h e r e f e r e n c e b u n d le p a g e 1 - 3 - 7 - 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: A or B?
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h . I t is D . I t is t h e la s t o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: D?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ja, D.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r D o r is .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e y o u th e r e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m - I a m tr y i n g t o fi n d i t C h a ir.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o - n o p r o b le m . I t is D f o r D o n a l d . Yo u
h a v e g o t i t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. I have got it.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 - 3 - 7 - 5 . Yo u h a v e t h a t ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e w i ll r e a d i t in a m i n u t e b u t c a n y o u

a ls o p a g e a c r o s s t o 1 - 3 - 7 - 8 a n d t h e n k e e p y o u r fi n g e r o n b o th , i f y o u
c a n k e e p th e m b o th t h e r e o p e n . I h a v e j u s t p u t m y fi n g e r s b e t w e e n t h e
p a g e s to k e e p b o t h o p e n .
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 1-3-7-5.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And 1-3-7-8.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e I w il l g o f r o m o n e t o th e o th e r.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r e c o g n i s e o f c o u r s e 1 - 3 - 7 - 8 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I s e e i t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u - y o u s e e y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n 1 - 3 - 7 - 5 ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : 1 - 3 - 7 - 8 y e s I s e e it C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

20

Ye s .

M a y b e w e s h o u l d ju s t s ta r t t h e r e

b e c a u s e i t is y o u r d o c u m e n t a n d s a y t h a t t h is d o c u m e n t w a s t h e
C o n fi r m a ti o n o f C o m p l e t i o n o f P h a s e 1 o f t h e P r o j e c t …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And what you have here I think it is better

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
t o r e a d t h is in t o t h e r e c o r d ju s t to b e a b s o lu t e ly a c c u r a te . Is y o u - y o u
w r i t e o n 1 8 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 t o Es t in a ( P t y ) L t d i n Vr e d e .
“ S u b j e c t : C o n f ir m a t io n o f C o m p le t io n o f P h a s e 1 o f
t h e Pr o j e c t .

Reference:

C o n tr a c t s i g n e d b e tw e e n

the department and Estina dated July 2012.

We

r e fe r t o t h e a b o v e c o n t r a c t s i g n e d b e t w e e n t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a w it h r e g a r d to s e t t in g u p o f
a n i n te g r a t e d d i a r y p r o j e c t i n Vr e d e P h u m e l e la
M u n i c i p a li t y.
10

W e a r e p l e a s e d t o c o n f ir m t h a t w e

h a v e b e e n r e c e iv i n g r e g u l a r ly m o n t h ly a n d q u a r t e r l y
r e p o r t s fr o m E s ti n a a n d a r e s a t is fi e d w i th t h e
progress

made

so

f a r.

With

regard

to

the

o b li g a ti o n s o f E s t in a f o r c o m p le t io n o f P h a s e 1 o f
t h e Pr o j e c t b y D e c e m b e r, t h e 3 1 s t 2 0 1 2 w e a r e a l s o
p l e a s e d t o c o n fir m t h a t a ll th e o b li g a ti o n s a s
r e q u ir e d b y th e c o n t r a c t h a v e b e e n m e t a s p e r
d e t a i ls b e l o w. ”
S o y o u s e t o u t th e d e t a i ls b e l o w. E s t i n a o b li g a ti o n s f o r Fi r s t
Phase. So you have a number of items on the left hand column one to
20

n i n e . T h e n y o u h a v e t h e o b l i g a t io n th a t r e s t e d w i t h E s t in a i n t h e n e x t
c o l u m n a n d t h e n o n th e f a r r i g h t h a n d s i d e y o u h a v e g o t r e m a r k s . W h o
m a k e s t h e s e r e m a r k s o n t h e f a r r ig h t h a n d s id e M r T h a b e t h e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir - C h a ir t h e s e r e m a r k s o n t h e

r ig h t s h o u ld b e r e m a r k s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Huh-uh.

S o y o u - y o u w o u ld h a v e if n o t

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
p r e p a r e d t h is y o u w o u ld h a v e r e a d th i s b e c a u s e y o u s i g n e d th is
document?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t y o u h a v e s a id h e r e i s in te r ms o f

la n d a c q u i s i ti o n - t h is i s J a n u a r y th e 1 8 t h 2 0 1 3 .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r r e m a r k i s :
“ L a n d h a s b e e n r e g is t e r e d a t th e D e e d s O ffi c e . ”
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F a c t u a ll y w h a t h a d b e e n r e g is t e r e d a t th e
D e e d s O ffi c e ? C a n I g i v e y o u t h e c o n t e x t j u s t t o r e m i n d y o u b e c a u s e
y o u h a v e n o t l o o k e d a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s i n a w h i le ? U n l e s s y o u k n o w you know what - you know it anyway?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I k n o w C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o . T h e n l e t m e lis t e n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s .

T h e r e g i s tr a t i o n w a s t h e le a s e

agreement.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The lease agreement between?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

B e t w e e n t h e - th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d

E s ti n a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. W e w i ll c o m e b a c k to t h a t w h e n w e
d e a l w it h t h e Vr e d e is s u e s . S e c o n d :
“ E n v ir o n m e n t a l i m p a c t a s s e s s m e n t . ”
P l e a s e r e a d t h e e n tr y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

“Environmental

Page 166 of 187

impact

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
assessment.”
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e n o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It s a y s :
“ A p p l i e d a n d c o n fir m a t i o n r e c e i v e d fr o m E D T E A . ”
W h i c h is t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff a ir s - Ec o n o m i c ,
To u r is m a n d E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff a ir s . I a m s o r r y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

What

is

meant

by

a p p li e d

and

c o n fir m a t io n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

C h a ir m y - m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f

a p p li e d a n d c o n fir m a t io n i t m e a n s t h e - t h e e n v ir o n m e n t a l i m p a c t
a s s e s s m e n t h a s - h a s b e e n r e g is t e r e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t d o e s r e g is tr a ti o n m e a n ?

Does it

m e a n it h a s b e e n c o n d u c t e d a n d c o n c l u d e d o r t h a t s i m p ly a p p l ic a t i o n
h a s b e e n f il e d t o d o a n E I A ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

A p p l ie d a n d c o n fir m a t i o n r e c e iv e d , i t

means it - it has been - it has been done by the company that was
a p p o i n t e d a n d i t h a s b e e n t a b l e d t o th e r e l e v a n t a u t h o r it y th a t n e e d s to
say yes or no.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

A n d t h a t i s t h e c o n fir m a t i o n t h a t y o u

a w a it ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t t h e r e is n o f u r t h e r w o r k to b e d o n e

u n l e s s o f c o u r s e t h e r e a r e a d v e r s e c o m m e n t s fr o m th e r e g u l a to r y
a u t h o r i ty.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ei t h e r t h e y s a y

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
n o t h e in f o r m a t io n is i n c o m p l e te .

We ne ed one, two, three or no we

d e c l in e o r y e s w e a g r e e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. T h e n t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w e w i ll w h ic h w e w i ll t a l k a b o u t in g r e a te r d e t a i l w h e n w e fi n d ti m e . T h a t h a d
b e e n r e c e iv e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

N o w w e r e f e r r e d t o th is y e s t e r d a y a n d

s a i d a s - o n o u r r e c o r d s t h e r e is t h e O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 f e a s i b ili t y s tu d y.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is t h a t t h e o n e y o u k n o w a b o u t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t is - th a t is w h a t w e w h e n w e

w e r e t a lk i n g w e r e f e r r e d t o i s a s p r e - f e a s i b ili t y s tu d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Because there was then the second

o n e w h ic h w a s d e ta il e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t is t h e d a te o f t h e s e c o n d o n e ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J u s t r o u g h ly b e c a u s e t h e o n ly o n e I h a v e
s e e n in t h e b u n d le s is t h e o n e o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 .
20

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Is i t - is t h e s m a l l o n e o r t h e b ig o n e
C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e y …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is i s a c t u a l ly i m p o r t a n t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n w e ju s t fi n d it fo r y o u a n d a s k y o u t o
lo o k a t i t?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e w e a r e g o i n g t o b e ta lk i n g a b o u t
what monies were paid …
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : F o r t h e s e s e r v ic e s th a t w e r e r e n d e r e d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M y a p o l o g ie s C h a ir.

W e w il l f in d i t in a

m i n u t e . L e t u s c o n ti n u e w h i le m y c o l l e a g u e s l o o k fo r i t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w ill c o m e b a c k to it in a m in u t e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Let us go to the next item.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e w a te r r e t ic u l a t i o n , t e l l u s w h a t t h a t i s
a b o u t in th e - j u s t r e a d - i f y o u c a n r e a d t h e e n tr y o n t h e r i g h t h a n d
s id e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t i s t h e p e r m i s s i o n C h a ir t h a t y o u
g e t t o - i t is - i t is y o u r w a t e r r ig h ts t h a t y o u r e c e iv e t o b e a b le t o u s e
w a t e r.

20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h o w o u l d b e a p p l y i n g f o r th o s e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e - t h e f a r m a p p l ie s f o r - f o r i t a n d
t h e n y o u t h e n g iv e a c o p y to th e m u n ic i p a li ty th a t y o u h a v e g o t th e
r ig h ts .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o i n t h is i n s ta n c e t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g

a g e n t w o u l d h a v e a p p l i e d f o r th e s e .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

In fact I am - I think I have seen it as a

t e r m in t h e c o n tr a c t .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n t h e n e x t i t e m is :
“ I n c lu d e … ”
Thank you.
“ I n c lu d e

i d e n t i fy i n g

b e n e fi c i a r i e s

in

A g r i- B E E

e n t i ty. ”
10

P l e a s e r e a d w h a t is o n th e r ig h t h a n d s i d e .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r c a n I a s k t o r e p e a t?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Item number …
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s h e i s a s k i n g y o u t o r e a d w h a t i s w r i tt e n o n t h e

r ig h t h a n d c o l u m n o n i t e m s ix w h e r e i t s a y s :
“ I n c lu d e

i d e n t i fy i n g

b e n e fi c i a r i e s

in

A g r i- B E E

e n t i ty. ”
T h e n t h e r e is s o m e t h in g w r i t te n u n d e r r e m a r k s . Th a t is w h a t
s h e is a s k i n g y o u to r e a d .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It s a y s :
20

“Done.”
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e e x p la i n “d o n e ” t o th e C h a ir m a n .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

“ D o n e ” it m e a n s w e - w e h a v e t h e

b e n e fic i a r i e s a n d th e A g r i- B E E c o m p a n y h a s b e e n r e g is t e r e d w h ic h is
Z a y n a tr a d i n g a s M o h u m a M o b u n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s , b u t t h e b e n e f ic i a r y - t h is is i n

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
January 2013.
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th e b e n e fic i a r i e s h a d n o t b e e n

r e g is t e r e d y e t a s a t J a n u a r y, t h e 1 8 t h 2 0 1 3 .

Yo u h a d t h e l is t b u t y o u

c e r t a i n l y h a d n o t t o l d t h e m w h a t th e ir a l lo c a ti o n s w e r e o r a n y t h i n g l ik e
t h a t . T h a t i s t h e - th e s u b s ta n ti v e is s u e I k e e p r a is i n g .
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . Th a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. L e t
m e - l e t m e g o b a c k . Yo u - y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t it w h a t w e w a n te d t o d o
b u t w e w e r e a d v i s e d b y th e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s n o t to d o it a t t h a t t i m e
10

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

What

was

their

r e a s o n in g ?

What

e x p l a n a t io n d i d t h e y g iv e y o u ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir w h e n - w h e n w e w e r e a d v i s e d

w a s t h a t t h e - t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s w o u l d g e t i n to t h e e n ti ty a s w e
c o m p le t e th e p r o j e c t .

We should not do it before the project is

c o m p le t e b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o t h in g t o h a n d o v e r t o t h e m . W e a r e s t il l in
the process of construction.
W e s h o u l d k n o w t h e m , w h o t h e y a r e b u t t h e n w e w il l e n t e r
t h e m i n to t h e - in t o t h e e n ti t y b e c a u s e y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r th a t o r i g i n a l ly
20

w e - w e e v e n w a n t e d t h a t i t s h o u l d b e th e - t h e c o m p a n y th a t s i g n s t h e
a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e i n t e n ti o n C h a ir w a s e v e n t u a ll y a ls o d is p o s e d
t h e l a n d t o t h e m th r o u g h th e L a n d R e f o r m P r o g r a m .

So that the

p r o j e c ts b e c o m e s e n t ir e ly t h e ir s .
S o w e - w e w e r e a d v is e d n o t t o p r o c e e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s . To
r e g is t e r i t u n d e r th e G o v e r n m e n t . T h e la n d f ir s t t o b e c o m e S t a t e l a n d .

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
W e i m p l e m e n t th e p r o je c t . O n c e c o m p l e t e d , w e t h e n tr a n s f e r t h e m i n to
t h e e n t it y w h i c h i s t h e - t h e f a r m e r s ’ h o l d in g c o m p a n y.

T h a t - t h a t is

w h a t I u n d e r s to o d I w a s a d v is e d t o d o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t w o u ld i t n o t h a v e b e e n m o r e c o r r e c t

t h a n to s a y s o m e t h i n g - y o u k n o w w e l ik e s a y in g w o r k i n p r o g r e s s w h e n
s o m e t h i n g is b e i n g d o n e b u t h a s n o t b e e n c o m p le t e d . Th e r e c o u ld b e a
b e t t e r - b e t te r w a y o f p h r a s i n g i t.

Would that not be more accurate

b e c a u s e d o n e m e a n s y o u k n o w I h a v e d e li v e r e d o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r
m il e s t o n e ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e w h a t r e m a i n e d

w o u ld b e p a p e r w o r k to p u t t h e n a m e s i n b e c a u s e w h a t w e h a d a s k e d
t h e m t o d o . I t h a s b e e n d o n e . W h a t r e m a i n e d w a s o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty.
R e m e m b e r w e a r e w r i t in g t h i s t o t h e m a n d s a y w h a t w e h a d a s k e d y o u
t o d o h a s b e e n d o n e . W h a t r e m a i n s b e c a m e o u r r e s p o n s ib il it y t o d o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - c a n I j u s t d e b a t e th a t w i th y o u f o r o n e
minute?

What had been done?

T h i s i s t h e e v i d e n c e th a t h a s b e e n

tendered here at the Commission.
department

had

been

to

W h a t h a d b e e n d o n e is th a t t h e

T h e m b a l ih l e

and

c o ll e c t e d

a

lis t

of

b e n e fic i a r i e s . T h e n t h e y h a d a ls o a p p o in t e d a c o m m i t t e e o f t h r e e …
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

Who

would

be

representing

the

b e n e fic i a r i e s . E s ti n a d i d n o t d o th a t w o r k . I t is th e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t d i d
t h a t w o r k b u t w h y is i t t h a t w h e n y o u ti c k d o n e h e r e i t w o u ld a p p e a r a s
if y o u a r e n o w a t tr ib u ti n g th e w o r k t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t a c t u a lly d id t o
y o u r i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d t h e n p a y i n g t h e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t fo r i t ?

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
H a v e I g o t it w r o n g ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja.

M a y b e C h a ir w e w o u l d h a v e

n e e d e d t h e - th e r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t w e s a i d E s ti n a s h o u l d d o i n P h a s e 1
b e c a u s e t h a t w i ll b e v e r y c l e a r b e c a u s e th is is in r e s p o n s e t o - t o w h a t
w e s a id t h e y s h o u ld d o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ja.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e n o n c e t h e y h a v e d o n e w h a t w e

h a v e a s k e d t h e t o d o , m a y b e t h i s m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n t h e d e t a il s o f
w h a t w e h a d s a i d th e y s h o u l d d o , t h e n i f w e c o m p a r e t h e t h e n if w e
10

c o m p a r e t h e t w o , th e n w e w il l b e a b l e t o s a y, b u t y o u g a v e t h e m th e
w o r k t h a t t h e y d id n o t d o , t h a t y o u d id . B e c a u s e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s
t h a t th e i d e n ti f ic a ti o n o f b e n e fi c i a r i e s b e c o m e s th e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f th e
D e p a r t m e n t t o g e t h e r w i th t h e M u n ic i p a l i ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s e e , a n d t h is m i g h t j u s t b e m y o w n

q u e s t io n , i t e m 6 d o e s n ’ t s a y i d e n ti f y b e n e fi c i a r ie s , i t s a y s i n c l u d e
id e n t i fi e d b e n e fi c i a r ie s in A g r i B E e n t i ty, w h a t d i d t h a t m e a n , in c l u d e
t h e m i n t h e e n ti t y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h a t m e a n s y o u m u s t t h e n t a k e

t h e n a m e s o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s i n t o th e c o m p a n y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

M a k e th e m S h a r e h o ld e r s , m a k e th e m d i r e c t o r s ,

m a k e t h e m – w h a t d o e s m e a n ta k e t h e m t o th e c o m p a n y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e r e m a r k o n t h e r i g h t- h a n d c o l u m n , “ d o n e ” , d o

you mean that you were saying it had been done?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e n c e C h a ir I w a s m a k i n g th e

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
r e q u e s t t h a t w e n e e d t o g o b a c k t o th e o r i g in a l o b l ig a ti o n th a t w a s
g iv e n , b e c a u s e t h i s m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n c o r r e c t ly c a p t u r e d , s o t h a t i f
w e c h e c k i f i t w a s i n li n e w i th w h a t w e g a v e t h e m a s a n o b l ig a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b u t h e r e i n th is l e tt e r, i n t h e le f t- h a n d c o lu m n

y o u ’v e w r i t te n – w e ll a b o v e t h a t t h o s e t w o c o l u m n s y o u w r i te E s t in a
o b li g a ti o n s fo r fir s t p h a s e a n d t h e n y o u w r i t e a t th e t o p , o b l ig a ti o n –
w e ll y o u w r i te n u m b e r a n d s a y o b l ig a ti o n a n d t h e n y o u ’v e g o t n u m b e r 1 ,
2 3 , 4 , u p t o 9 a n d u n d e r o b l ig a ti o n y o u h a v e s e t o u t w h a t th e
o b li g a ti o n is , t h e f ir s t o n e i s l a n d a c q u is i ti o n , s o t h a t m e a n s E s ti n a h a d
10

t h e o b l ig a ti o n to a c q u ir e la n d . T h e n u n d e r s ix , t h e o b l ig a ti o n u n d e r s ix ,
lik e a l l t h e o t h e r o b li g a t i o n s m u s t m e a n y o u a r e s e tt i n g o u t E s ti n a ’s
o b li g a ti o n s f o r fir s t p h a s e a n d u n d e r s ix y o u a r e , i n e ffe c t s a y in g E s ti n a
h a d a n o b li g a ti o n t o i n c l u d e i d e n ti f ie d b e n e f ic i a r i e s in A g r i B e e e n t i ty
a n d y o u r r e m a r k o n t h e r i g h t - h a n d c o lu m n i s , E s ti n a h a d d o n e t h a t . S o
it is c o r r e c t t h a t o n e o f E s ti n a ’s o b li g a ti o n s f o r t h e fi r s t p h a s e w a s t o
in c l u d e i d e n t i fi e d in A g r i B E E e n ti t y ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

H e n c e C h a ir b e f o r e I c o n f ir m o n i t, I

w o u ld w a n t t o c h e c k t h e o r i g i n a l o b li g a t i o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

C h a ir m a n , I h a v e f o u n d i t, is i n B u n d le A

it is t h e J u ly a g r e e m e n t , s o i t ’s r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A p a g e 11 a n d th e n
t h e r e ’s a n A n n e x u r e a s w e l l M r T h a b e t h e o n p a g e 2 4 , p le a s e i n d ic a te i f
t h a t ’s t h e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u t h i n k w i ll a s s is t in c l a r i f y i n g t h is m a t t e r.
P a g e 11 a n d i ts c la u s e s ix o f h e a g r e e m e n t , o f th e J u l y a g r e e m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir t h i s is n o t th e … [ i n te r v e n ti o n ] .

I t ’s n o t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r.

Page 174 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s t h e r e ’s t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s

t h e m i le s t o n e s a n d t h e p h a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

and

i t ’s

not

th e

form

of

agreement

o r … [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t ’s in a t a b le f o r m .

Can I ask you to go to page 24 because

t h is is th e a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u s ig n e d i n J u ly o f 2 0 1 2 , 5 t h a n d 7 t h o f
J u l y.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

J a C h a i r t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t t h a t w e

g a v e t h e m , w h ic h in r e s p o n s e a c o s t i n g o f a l l th o s e a c ti v i ti e s w a s d o n e ,
t h a t w a s t h e d o c u m e n t I w a s l o o k in g fo r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a i r m a n w e ’l l fi n d t h a t , i f n o t t o d a y

w e ’l l d e a l w i t h i t n e x t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But coming back to the – your letter on page 1378

a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h e th e r y o u w e r e c o r r e c t i n t h a t l e tt e r t o r e f le c t
t h a t o n e o f E s t in a ’s o b l ig a ti o n f o r p h a s e o n e w a s t o in c l u d e i d e n t if i e d
b e n e fic i a r i e s i n A g r i B E E e n t it y o r a r e y o u s a y i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e y o u
w e r e c o r r e c t in s a y i n g t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
20

I d o n ’t t h in k I w a s c o r r e c t C h a ir,

b e c a u s e a lt h o u g h t h e o r i g i n a l i n t e n ti o n o f r e g i s te r i n g t h e c o m p a n y a n d
id e n t i fy i n g t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s a s c o m p l e t e b u t th is p r o c e s s o f in c l u d i n g
t h e m i n t h e s h e ll c o m p a n y h a d n o t b e e n a c h i e v e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay had not been achieved?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Had not been achieved as we were

a d v is e d d i ff e r e n tl y b y t h e S ta t e L a w A d v is o r s .

Page 175 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y s o i t ’s a m a tt e r t h a t w il l b e d e a l t w i th o n c e

the document has been found.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
number eight.

T h e n e x t i te m i s n u m b e r e i g h t , i t e m

N o a c t u a lly w e j u s t s k ip p e d n u m b e r s e v e n , s o n u m b e r

s ix s a i d i n c lu d e id e n ti fi e d b e n e fic i a r i e s in A g r i B E E e n ti t y, n u m b e r
seven reads,
“ S e t- u p o f A g r i B E E e n ti ty a n d c l a r i fy r o le s o f s t a k e h o l d e r s ,
t h e s e b e in g th e D e p a r t m e n t th e A g r i B E E e n t i ty a n d E s ti n a .

In th e

r ig h t- h a n d s i d e , w h a t’s y o u r r e m a r k t h e r e M r T h a b e t h e ?
10

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r I t h in k t h e o n e t h a t I’ v e b e e n

r e fe r r i n g t o h a b e e n i t e m n u m b e r s e v e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h th e o n e w h e r e y o u n e e d a c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t

w h e r e y o u n e e d a c e r ta i n d o c u m e n t t o a n s w e r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o th a t m e a n s w e c a n g o b a c k t o n u m b e r s ix ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

To a n s w e r th a t o n e C h a ir.

Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O h a lr i g h t , s o l e t ’s g o b a c k t o s i x t h e n , is i t c o r r e c t

t h e n th a t o n e o f Es t in a ’s o b li g a ti o n s fo r f ir s t – fo r t h e fir s t p h a s e w a s t o
in c l u d e i d e n t i fi e d b e n e fi c i a r ie s i n A g r i B E E e n t it y ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir th a t w e w a n t e d

t h e m t o d o t h a t r e s p o n s i b ili t y b u t it w a s o u r s e lv e s t h a t p u t it o n h o l d ,
therefore the remark on the right is not correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i t w a s d o n e ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is was done.

Ye s n o w i n c l u d i n g t h e m – s o y o u s ti ll s a y in c l u d i n g

Page 176 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
id e n t i fi e d b e n e f ic i a r ie s m e a n s w h a t y o u s a id a f e w m in u t e s a g o ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Okay that had not been done?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th a t ’s tr u e C h a ir.

B e c a u s e Yo u h a d p u t i t o n h o l d ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

O k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Then we get to number eight, draw a

p r o j e c t p la n , i n li n e w i t h E s ti n a p r o p o s a ls w i t h m i le s to n e s a n d ti m e l in e s
10

f o r p h a s e t w o a s a p p r o v e d b y th e D e p a r t m e n t .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h a t i s a c tu a lly

t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t I’ m l o o k i n g f o r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

N o w is t h a t t h e p r o je c t p r o p o s a l o r t h e

project – or the business plan?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t’s a p r o j e c t p l a n w i th m i l e s to n e s

a n d d a t e s o f e a c h o f th e a c ti v i ti e s t h a t s h o u ld h a p p e n w i t h a b u d g e t
a l lo c a t io n to e a c h i t e m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e n t h e l a s t it e m , w e ’l l c o m e b a c k t o

y o u o n t h a t o n e a s w e l l, t h e l a s t i t e m , d e t e r m in e t h e d a t e s f o r c a p i t a l
20

in je c t i o n b y E s ti n a .

W h a t ’s t h e c o m m e n t o r r e m a r k o n th e r i g h t - h a n d

s id e ?
M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

C h a ir i t s a y s E s t i n a h a s a lr e a d y

commenced investment.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C o u ld y o u e x p l a i n t h a t a n d t h is is a s a t

January 18, 2013?

Page 177 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir, in th e p r e v io u s r e p o r t s

t h a t w e ’v e b e e n r e c e i v i n g o n a m o n th ly b a s is .

In t h e t a b l e s t h a t w e

h a v e b e e n p r o v id e d th e r e w e r e a l r e a d y in d ic a ti o n s o f h o w m u c h E s ti n a
h a s s p e n t , t h e y h a d a lr e a d y p r o v i d e d t h a t t o u s , s o h e n c e t h e y ’v e
a lr e a d y c o m m e n c e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e c a n d e a l w i th t h i s n o w o r l a t e r, w h a t

E s ti n a h a d s p e n t i n r e la t io n t o w h a t y o u h a d a d v a n c e d o r i n r e l a ti o n t o
t h e ir o w n c o n tr i b u t io n o f R 2 2 8 m i lli o n ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e i r o w n C h a ir.

O k a y w e ’ ll e x p l o r e th a t i n d u e c o u r s e .

W e ll l e t ’s – y o u s a y i n y o u r r e m a r k , E s ti n a h a s

a lr e a d y c o m m e n c e d i n v e s t m e n ts a n d w e k n o w t h a t o n e o f th e t w o
t h i n g s t h a t y o u s a id y o u w a n te d P a r a s f o r, w a s d ir e c t i n v e s t m e n ts .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t

I s th a t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t o r in v e s t m e n t

b e i n g u s e d f o r – i n a d i ff e r e n t c o n te x t h e r e .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r t h e y w e r e a l r e a d y p u tt i n g

m o n e y i n to t h e p r o j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

In what way?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Th e r e w a s a p h a s e i n w h ic h t h e y

w e r e t o d o th e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n b u t t h a t p h a s e , d e p e n d e n t o n th e
p r o g r e s s t h a t w e ’v e b e e n m a k i n g , a s t h e p r o g r e s s w a s m o v i n g t h e n
t h e y t h e n s t a r t e d t h e ir p a r t i n p r e p a r a ti o n w i t h t h e i n v e s t m e n t t h a t t h e y
h a d to d o .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e y w e r e s p e n d i n g t h e ir m o n e y t o a d v a n c e t h e

Page 178 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
project?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s w h a t y o u m e a n ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

But do you know by any chance, more or less, how

m u c h th e y m a y h a v e s p e n t b y t h is ti m e a r o u n d b y t h is ti m e , J a n u a r y
2 0 1 3 o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t n e e d s c h e c k in g s o m e d o c u m e n ts ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir w e h a v e m o n t h ly r e p o r ts o f t h e

a m o u n ts t h e y h a d s p e n t a n d g o i n g to t h o s e r e p o r ts w e w il l b e a b le t o
10

s e e h o w m u c h … [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t th e y h a d s p e n t ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

W h a t’s y o u r r o u g h s e n s e o f w h a t t h e y m a y h a v e

s p e n t b y t h e n b e a r i n g i n m in d w h a t y o u h a d s e e n i n t h e r e p o r t s – i n t h e
m o n th ly r e p o r ts , o b v i o u s l y I’ m n o t e x p e c ti n g y o u t o b e e x a c t , I’ m ju s t,
y o u k n o w, w a n t i n g t o h a v e a s e n s e fr o m – a r e w e t a l k i n g a b o u t
s o m e b o d y w h o h a d s p e n t s o m e m i ll io n s a lr e a d y b y J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 o r i t
w a s l e s s t h a n R 1 0 0 0 0 0 , l e s s t h a n R 5 0 0 0 0 0 , a r e y o u a b le t o g iv e m e
s o m e s e n s e o n t h a t w it h o u t h a v i n g t o g o l o o k a t th e d o c u m e n ts o r is it
20

s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u l d r e q u ir e y o u t o l o o k a t th e d o c u m e n ts ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a ir I w o u l d n e e d t o g o to t h e

d o c u m e n t , w h a t I w o u l d w a n t t o m e n t i o n h e r e C h a ir is t h a t w e h a d
d is c u s s e d , I t h i n k , y e s t e r d a y t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a n t e d t o m a k e a n
a d v a n c e p a y m e n t w h ic h d id n o t h a p p e n b u t t h e w o r k o n th e g r o u n d
c o n ti n u e d .

Th e w o r k o n th e g r o u n d t h a t w e w e r e a c k n o w l e d g i n g h a d

Page 179 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
happened.

Th e D e p a r t m e n t h a d n o t s p e n t m o n e y y e t w h ic h w e h a d

in t e n d e d to d o . T h e p a y m e n t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t c a m e l a te r b u t w h a t
w e h a d a s k e d t h e m w a s to s a y fr o m th is o b l i g a t io n y o u m u s t
d i ff e r e n t ia t e fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e , w h ic h w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e
b e e n d o n e b y u s a n d w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e w h ic h w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e
b e e n d o n e b y y o u . S o t h a t w a s c le a r ly i n d ic te d i n th a t r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I i n te r r o g a t e y o u r l a s t s ta t e m e n t,

R 3 0 m i ll io n w a s p a i d i n o r a r o u n d J u ly, i f i t ’s n o t t h e 9 t h o f J u ly i t ’s t h e
10

2 0 t h o f J u ly, d o y o u a g r e e w it h t h a t ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

2013?

N o 2 0 1 2 , t h e f ir s t R 3 0 m i lli o n w a s p a i d i n

J u l y o f 2 0 1 2 , th e r e w a s a s h o r t fa ll o f R 8 4 m i ll io n t o m a k e u p t h e
R 11 4 m il li o n , w o u l d y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

N o C h a i r I t h i n k i f y o u g o b a c k t o th e

r e p o r t o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n o f Tr e a s u r y th e y ’ v e r a is e d t h a t , t h a t i n t h e
s y s te m t h e R 3 0 m il li o n w a s c a p t u r e d b u t n e v e r p a i d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

N o , n o t h e R 8 4 m i ll io n w a s c a p t u r e d b u t

n e v e r p a i d , t h e R 3 0 m il li o n w a s p a i d b u t t h e R 8 4 m il li o n – y o u ’r e c o r r e c t
20

if y o u w e r e s a y in g th e R 8 4 m i ll io n … [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h e r e a p a g e w h ic h m i g h t r e f r e s h h is m e m o r y t h a t

y o u w a n t h i m to r e f e r h i m t o o r d o c u m e n t ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I m u s t a p o l o g is e M r C h a ir m a n , a n d r e a ll y

M r T h a b e th e I’ m s o r r y I w a s n ’ t g o i n g to b e d e a li n g w i th t h e m o n i e s n o w
b u t m y j u n i o r s a r e b u s y f e e d in g m e w i t h – h e r e w e g o , h a v e t w o

Page 180 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s o u r c e s . M r Th a b e t h e I h a v e g o t a c t u a l ly m o r e t h a n I e x p e c t e d , I t h i n k
t h e f ir s t o n e w e s h o u l d lo o k a t is r e fe r e n c e B u n d le B p a g e 4 5 8 w h ic h i s
a B C T p a y m e n t lis t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u s a y 4 5 8 ?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

4 5 8 C h a i r ma n , it ’s i n B u n d l e B , t h e

r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e , b u t B u n d le B .
CHAIRPERSON:

Have you found it Mr Thabethe?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I’ m g e t t in g c l o s e r C h a ir, t h a t ’s

c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u w il l s e e y o u h a v e a t t h e t o p E s ti n a ,

t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a i d o n t h e 1 4 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 2 w a s R 3 0 mi ll i o n a r e
y o u c o n v i n c e d n o w o r is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g y o u t h i n k is n o t q u i te r i g h t
w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t I’ m h o l d i n g .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ex a c t ly C h a ir, t h i s i s n o t th e p r o o f o f

p a y m e n t , t h i s is w h a t g e t s a p p r o v e d s o t h a t y o u r e g is t e r th e p a y m e n t
in t o t h e s y s t e m , t h e p r o o f o f p a y m e n t I a d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

And you are certain that it had not been – it wasn’t

p a i d , a ll t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g f o r is p r o o f b u t -

o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t

y o u a r e d o u b tf u l t h a t i t w a s p a i d ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n i s t h a t i t w a s n o t p a i d ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

U n ti l I ’ m p r o v e n o th e r w i s e C h a ir.

I t w a s n ’ t p a id , t h a t ’s m y r e c o l le c t i o n .

O k a y b u t t h is k i n d o f d o c u m e n t , w o u ld t h is k i n d o f

document exist if the payment had not been made?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s d o n e b e f o r e t h e a c t u a l p a y m e n t w a s m a d e ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I t’s d o n e b e f o r e t h e a c tu a l p a y m e n t

is m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t m a y h a v e b e e n d o n e i n a n t ic i p a ti o n o f

payment?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

10

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d th e n p a y m e n t m ig h t n o t a c tu a l ly h a v e f o l l o w e d ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n w it h y o u r l e a v e , w e h a v e

d iv i d e d t h e w o r k t h a t w e ’r e d o in g o n t h i s s tr e a m , M r T h a b e t h e s o w e
h a v e a r e l a te d s tr e a m t h a t w e c a ll , m o n e y fl o w s , w e h a v e n o t p u t t h o s e
d o c u m e n ts b e fo r e t h e C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e w e ’r e s ti ll w o r k i n g w it h t h e
broader concept of money flows.

H o w e v e r C h a ir m a n I’v e g o t a

S t a n d a r d B a n k e n tr y h e r e f r o m t h a t s tr e a m o f w o r k , i t ’s j u s t n o t in a n y
of our bundles.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t i t e x is ts .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t I ’ m h a p p y to s h o w is a n d t h e e n tr y to
M r T h a b e th e j u s t s o h e c a n r e fr e s h h i s m e m o r y a n d u n d e r s t a n d , i t ’s
h i g h l ig h te d M r T h a b e t h e , my c o ll e a g u e w il l b r i n g i t t o y o u , d o n ’ t w o r r y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t’s r e a lly j u s t t o a s s is t y o u .

That

w h a t ’s h i g h l ig h t e d a t t h e b o tt o m , p le a s e r e a d t h a t a t t h e b o t to m a n d w e
w i ll p l a c e i t b e f o r e th e C h a i r m a n , m o r e a p p r o p r i a t e ly n e x t t i m e w e c o m e
in . Th e s e a r e r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e s u m m o n s e d fr o m th e b a n k s a n d th a t ’s
ju s t o n e o f t h e m ?

Page 182 of 187

16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a C h a i r, I m a y n e e d to g o b a c k a n d

do the re-check.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h is m a t te r, d id c o m e o u t d u r i n g t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n , I t h i n k , b y t h e H a w k s .

W e w e n t t o t h e s y s t e m s o f th e

D e p a r t m e n t, w e w e r e n o t a b le t o f i n d it .
CHAIRPERSON:

That payment.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

T h a t p a y m e n t a n d t h a t ’s w h y I s a y I

w i ll n e e d t o g o b a c k .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o t h a t ’s f in e b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t fi n i s h i n g

t o d a y, I th i n k y o u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s w i t h li a is e w i th M s G c a b a s h e i f
t h e r e i s a n y d o c u m e n t t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n is i n p o s i ti o n o f t h a t m i g h t
a s s is t i n c la r i fy in g , i n y o u r o w n m i n d , w h a t th e p o s i ti o n is .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y a lr ig h t .

M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E:

I don’t know whether you want to

k e e p t h a t o n e … [ i n te r v e n t io n ] .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I p o i n t t o o n e m o r e n o t e C h a ir m a n

w e w o u l d l ik e t o ta k e i t b a c k – c a n I j u s t p o in t y o u to o n e m o r e e n tr y
20

w h ic h is a s u n d r y p a y m e n t a d v i c e , i t m a y n o t b e w h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g
f o r in t e r m s o f c o n fi r m a ti o n , b u t t h i s o n e , is f o u n d in – a g a i n r e f e r e n c e
B u n d l e B a t p a g e 6 5 4 – 6 5 4 r e fe r e n c e B u n d le B .

Yo u w il l s e e t h a t ,

t h a t ’s t h e c a s h a m o u n t , i f y o u l o o k a t t h e r i g h t- h a n d s i d e R 2 5 4 0 0 0 0 0
a n d t h e n a n o t h e r R 4 . 6 m il li o n s i g n e d o ff b y y o u r s e l f , y o u h a v e a
s ig n a tu r e h e r e , H O D . D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t t h is m i g h t h a v e b e e n a b o u t ?

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MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a ir t h i s i s s t il l a d o c u m e n t i n

a n t ic i p a ti o n , t h a t s u n d r y p a y m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

C h a i r w h y I ’ m h a v i n g a d o u b t is th a t

– i t ’s b e c a u s e w h e n th is in v e s t i g a t io n w a s d o n e t h e C F O , n o t t h e
p r e v i o u s C F O , t h e n e w C F O w a s r e q u e s t e d to g o a n d c h e c k in t h e
s y s te m a n d s h e c a m e b a c k a n d m a d e a c o n f ir m a ti o n t o t h e m t h a t s h e
c o u l d n o t fi n d s u c h a p a y m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S h e c o u l d n o t fi n d t h a t p a y m e n t h a d b e e n m a d e ?

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Had been made yes.

A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r s h e h a d g o n e t o t h e b a n k

t o c h e c k o r n o t, o r s h e j u s t g a v e th a t a n s w e r ?
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

Ja but the system of the Department

– b e c a u s e i f y o u p a i d y o u r s y s t e m m u s t … [ i n te r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u r s y s te m s h o u ld b e a b l e t o t e l l y o u .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

J a I ’ m n o t s u r e i f th e y d i d g o to th e

bank.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t th e d e p a r t m e n t s y s t e m , in d ic a t e d t h a t – d i d

n o t in d i c a t e th a t p a y m e n t h a d b e e n m a d e ?
20

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s h e n c e I’ m … [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ] .

Yo u ’ r e h e s i t a n t t o a c c e p t .

MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:

I ’ m h e s i ta t in g n o w t o s a y, w a s th is

paid or not paid.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t ’s fi n e , b e t w e e n n o w a n d t h e n e x t t i m e , i f i t is

p o s s i b le fr o m y o u r s id e y o u w il l tr y a n d s e e w h a t y o u c a n g e t b u t y o u

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
w i ll g e t t h e c o o p e r a ti o n f o r m t h e C o m m i s s io n i f t h e r e a r e a n y
d o c u m e n ts t h a t c o u l d a s s is t y o u t o h a v e c l a r i t y o n t h e m a t te r.
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C h a i r m a n I ’v e j u s t c o n s u lt e d w i t h t h e

t e a m a n d w e ’l l b e a b le to b r i n g th o s e o n Tu e s d a y, w e h a v e – j u s t t o
r e a s s u r e y o u M r T h a b e t h e t h a t t h e f ir s t R 3 0 m i ll io n w a s p a i d t h e n th e
R 8 4 m i ll io n w a s e n te r e d b u t n o t p a id u n ti l a la t e r d a te w h e n it w a s p a i d
in th r e e tr a n c h e s , s o I t h i n k w e ’r e g o i n g t o – w h e n w e c o m e b a c k , s h o w
y o u th a t t h e e n ti r e R 11 4 m i ll io n , R 3 0 m i ll io n p l u s R 8 4 m i ll i o n w a s i n fa c t
10

p a i d a n d w e ’ ll s h o w y o u th e d a t e s .
MR MBANA PETER THABETHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Ye s a n d m a y b e w h a t c o u ld b e d o n e is t o m a k e

a v a i la b le t o h i s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s , o n M o n d a y t h o s e d o c u m e n t s s o
t h a t b y t h e ti m e w e r e s u m e o n Tu e s d a y h e h a s h a d ti m e t o r e fl e c t o n
t h e m a n d c o n s i d e r t h e m a n d is a b l e t o s a y, y e s I a g r e e t h e r e w a s
p a y m e n t o r n o I s t ill d o n ’ t a g r e e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n I n o t ic e it ’s a m i n u t e t o f iv e , I

c a n c o n t in u e w i th t h is o n Tu e s d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y, n o th a t ’s fi n e .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I f t h a t ’s t h e d a te y o u ’v e d e c i d e d w e

s h o u l d … [i n t e r v e n t i o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o n M o n d a y w e a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a w i tn e s s w h o ’s

e v i d e n c e b e l o n g to t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t s tr e a m M r [ in d i s ti n c t ] a n d h e
m a y – h e m i g h t n o t f i n i s h o n M o n d a y a n d m i g h t g o – c o n t in u e o n
Tu e s d a y b u t I t h i n k i f h e d o e s c o n ti n u e o n Tu e s d a y i t w il l o n ly b e f o r a

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16 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 146
s h o r t , v e r y s h o r t li m i t e d t i m e b u t th e r e ’s a c h a n c e h e m i g h t fi n is h o n
M o n d a y b u t n o w I r e m e m b e r t h a t I a lr e a d y s a id i n c h a m b e r s w e ’l l s t a r t
a t h a l f p a s t e i g h t. Th e o n l y t h i n g i s , t h a t w o u l d b e fi n e i f w e fi n i s h e d
w i t h Mr N k a s a n a o n M o n d a y, if w e w il l n o t h a v e f in is h e d a n d m a y b e
h e ’s g o i n g t o ta k e a n o t h e r h o u r o r tw o , i t m i g h t n o t b e f a ir t o l e t y o u b e
h e r e e a r l ie r a n d if w e h a v e to c o n ti n u e w i t h h i m w e w i ll s t a r t e a r li e r,
t h a t i s Mr N k a s a n a , w e w il l tr y a n d s t a r t e a r li e r u n l e s s t h e r e ’s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t I c a n ’t t h i n k o f n o w t h a t w ill p r e v e n t u s fr o m d o i n g s o .
S o I t h i n k – I t h in k w e s h o u l d s a y o n e , in t h e h o p e t h a t w e w il l fi n is h Mr
10

N k a s a n a ’s e v id e n c e w il l b e f in is h e d o n M o n d a y t h e n w e w il l c o n t i n u e o n
Tu e s d a y w i t h Mr T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e a n d i n t h a t e v e n t w e w il l s ta r t a t
half past eight.

S h o u ld w e n o t f in is h Mr N k a s a n a ’s e v id e n c e o n

M o n d a y, m a y I r e q u e s t th a t y o u k e e p i n t o u c h w i th , I t h i n k M r Pr e to r i u s
w i ll b e l e a d i n g M r N k a s a n a ’s s o t h a t m a y b e w e c a n i n d ic a t e , I c a n
in d i c a t e w h a t t i m e I t h i n k w e w o u ld s ta r t w i t h M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e
a n d t h e n y o u c a n b e i n to u g h w i th h is le g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s t o s a y w h a t
ti m e t h e y r e a l ly w o u l d n e e d t o b e h e r e s o t h a t t h e y d o n ’ t d r iv e a ll t h e
w a y t o b e h e r e h a l f p a s t e i g h t o n l y to fi n d th a t w e s t a r t a t te n o r
s o m e t h i n g , is th a t fi n e ?
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s f i n e C h a ir.

O k a y, I ta k e i t , i t ’s fi n e w i th y o u a s w e l l , o k a y t h a n k

y o u . A lr i g h t t h e n w e a r e g o i n g t o s t o p a t t h is s t a g e Mr T h a b e t h e a n d
w e w il l c o n ti n u e o n Tu e s d a y, w e ’ ll w o r k o n t h e b a s is o f h a l f p a s t e i g h t
a t t h is s t a g e b u t M o n d a y a f te r n o o n t h a t m ig h t c h a n g e i f M r N k a s a n a i s
g o i n g to g o i n t o Tu e s d a y a s w e ll b u t y o u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s w i ll b e

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in f o r m e d a n d t h e n t h e y ’l l le t y o u k n o w. Ye s , o k a y w e t h e r e f o r e a d j o u r n
f o r t o d a y a n d w e ll r e s u m e o n M o n d a y b u t w it h a d i ffe r e n t w i t n e s s , w e
adjourn.
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 9 A U G U S T 2 0 1 9

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