C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 17 APRIL 2019 D AY 8 5 20 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 PROCEEDINGS HELD ON 17 APRIL 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V O C AT E PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C h a ir t h e n e x t w i t n e s s is a l s o t e s t i fy in g u n d e r t h e r u b r ic o f L a w E n f o r c e m e n t Agencies. I t is M a j o r G e n e r a l J o h a n B o o y s e n . H e w i ll b e l e d b y A d v o c a t e S e p t e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you very much. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s S e p te m b e r. 10 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir b e fo r e w e b e g i n w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty j u s t t o o r i e n t a t e th r o u g h t h e fi le s th a t y o u fi n d b e f o r e y o u . T h e r e a r e t w o le v e r a r c h f il e s . Th e f ir s t fi l e b e in g m a r k e d F i le – E x h i b i t Z A a n d th e o th e r l e v e r a r c h fi le is m a r k e d Ex h ib i t Z B . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : s m a ll b l u e f o ld e r s . C h a ir y o u w i ll a ls o fi n d f o u r T h e f ir s t i s Ex h ib i t Z 2 w h i c h c o n ta i n s t h e fir s t s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it o f th is w i t n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e n e x t is E x h i b it Z 3 w h ic h c o n ta in s a ti m e l in e a n d d i a g r a m s to o r ie n t a te t h is w i t n e s s ’ e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : E x h i b i t Z 4 c o n t a in s h is s e c o n d s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t a n d Ex h ib i t Z 5 c o n ta in s a t h i r d s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t p l u s a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n t s . Page 2 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w c o m e y o u h a v e E x h ib it 2 to E x h ib i t Z 2 t o E x h i b i t Z 5 w i th o u t E x h i b i t Z 1 ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : E x c u s e m e . CHAIRPERSON : How come you have Exhibit Z2. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : U p to E x h i b i t Z 5 w it h o u t E x h i b i t Z1 ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir I h a v e b e e n – I h a v e b e e n i n fo r m e d t h a t Z A a n d B CHAIRPERSON : Ja. 10 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : E ff e c ti v e ly c o n s ti t u te s a s E x h i b i t Z1 . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. W e w il l j u s t h a v e t o tr y a n d s o r t t h a t o u t b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e I c o u l d o r a n y b o d y c o u ld l o o k fo r w h e r e i s Z 1 , a m I m is s i n g Z 1 . O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p le a s e s C h a ir. C h a ir t h e r e i s o n e p r e li m i n a r y i s s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t u a ll y w h y d o w e n o t f ix t h a t n o w ? I f y o u h a v e g o t – if th e l e v e r a r c h f il e s a r e E x h i b i t Z A a n d Z B th is s h o u l d b e Z C t o Z w h a t e v e r is i t n o t? 20 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I a m g u i d e d b y – b y y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s m o r e lo g ic a l to m e . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. I f t h a t is s o t h e n E x h ib i t Z 2 a s y o u d ir e c t w o u ld b e c o m e ? CHAIRPERSON : ZC. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir a s a … Page 3 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d Z3 w i ll b e Z 4 . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir if I a m – i f I m a y ? CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W o u l d i t b e p o s s i b l e a t a ll to p r o p o s e t h a t t h e E x h ib i t Z A a n d Ex h i b it Z B r e f e r r e d t o E x h i b i t Z1 please? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u s e e y o u p e o p l e n e e d t o b e c o n s is t e n t . W h e n w e w e r e – w e h a d E x h i b i t Y w e h a d E x h ib i t Y, E x h ib i t YA a n d Ex h ib i t Y B s o n o w i f w e c h a n g e n o w t o h a v e Z 1 a n d Z 2 i n s te a d o f Z A a n d Z B i t is 10 n o t lo g ic a l . S o w h a t is t h e c h a n g e ? S o if y o u h a v e k e p t A B w i t h th e o th e r s it is b e t t e r to k e e p i t – t o s tic k t o t h a t . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y I a m le d b y y o u r d ir e c t io n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : U n l e s s th e r e is a n y p a r t ic u l a r p r o b l e m t h a t I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h a t y o u w a n t t o te ll m e a b o u t ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e o n ly c h a ll e n g e w h il e I a m g u i d e d b y C h a ir ’s d ir e c t io n – t h e o n ly c h a ll e n g e t h a t m a y e n c o u n te r is t h r o u g h r e f e r e n c in g t o t h e d o c u m e n ts b a s e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e a s i t is t o be presented. 20 CHAIRPERSON : A r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t r e fe r e n c in g t h a t h a s a lr e a d y h a p p e n e d i n e x is t in g s t a t e m e n ts ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a ir i t is t h r o u g h th e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f e v i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : N o w h e n w e – w e ll i f w e c h a n g e n o w t o w h a t e v e r w h e t h e r w e c h a n g e t o E x h i b it Z 1 , Z 2 a n d w h a t e v e r t h e w i tn e s s w i ll b e Page 4 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t o l d a n d h is w il l h a v e b e e n c h a n g e d to t h a t a n d h e w i ll g iv e e v id e n c e u s i n g th o s e e x h i b i t n u m b e r s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b le m . CHAIRPERSON : A l l I w a s s i m p ly s a y i n g is i t is b e t t e r t o k e e p c o n s i s te n c y. I h a v e n o p a r ti c u la r l ik in g f o r Z A , Z B o r Z 1 o r Z 2 a l l I a m s i m p l y s a y in g I m u s t n o t h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e I l o o k a t t h is a n d I t h i n k I a m m i s s in g E x h ib i t Z1 . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b le m C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n i n f a c t I d o n o t m i s s a n y th i n g . S o s h a l l w e 10 ju s t m a k e i t – w e w e r e m a k i n g t h e m Z C w h ic h is – w a s Z 2 , is t h a t r ig h t ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d Z3 b e c o m e s Z D . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n Z 4 b e c o m e s Z E . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON : A n d Z 5 b e c o m e s Z F. Okay the witness’ ones mus t a ls o b e m a r k e d l ik e t h a t s o th a t w e a r e a l l o n t h e s a m e p a g e . R e g is tr a r d o y o u w a n t t o a s s is t th e w i t n e s s ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Should the Registrar administer the oath? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : B e f o r e … CHAIRPERSON : Are you ready? A D V O C AT E VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER : a d m i n is te r e d . Page 5 of 212 Before the oath is 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I ju s t w is h to h ig h l i g h t a p o i n t a n d th a t i s i n p a r ti c u l a r r e l a t i o n t o t h e Ex h ib it Z F C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h ic h i s t h e l a s t o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir t h i s p a r t ic u l a r e x h i b i t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d to r in g - f e n c e a p r e li m i n a r y i s s u e a n d th e e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p r e l i m in a r y is s u e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o n c e r n i n g a d d i ti o n a l e v i d e n c e t h a t Mr B o o y s e n i n t e n d s t o p r e s e n t t o t h is c o m m is s i o n r e g a r d in g A d v o c a t e Mx o l is i Zo n d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o is y o u r y o u n g e r b r o t h e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . W e ll I g u e s s y o u s h o u l d n o t s a y r i n g - f e n c e d b e c a u s e i f y o u s a y r in g - f e n c e d i t is li k e it i s b e in g m a d e s e c r e t. N o b o d y m u s t h a v e a c c e s s to i t . A s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n i t is – th e – th e a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n th e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e 20 w i t n e s s is c o n c e r n e d i n t h e li g h t o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n w a s i t l a s t w e e k ? Is t h a t u n ti l I h a v e r e c e i v e d s u b m is s i o n s w i t h r e g a r d to w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n r e l a ti n g t o i n r e g a r d t o e v i d e n c e a b o u t c e r t a in d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g s t h a t Mx o lis i Z o n d o c h a ir e d w e w i l l w a i t u n til e v e r y o n e w h o h a s t h a t e v i d e n c e a s fa r a s t h e l e g a l t e a m k n o w s w h o i s g o i n g t o t e s t i fy h a s it a n d i f I a m g o in g to e n d u p h e a r in g it t h e n I w i ll h e a r i t . If s o m e b o d y Page 6 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 e ls e w i ll h e a r th e n th a t p e r s o n w i ll h e a r i t . S o I ju s t w a n t e d to s a y i t is n o t li k e r i n g - f e n c e d a s i f n o b o d y m u s t s e e i t. I t i s ju s t – i t is e v i d e n c e t h a t is b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n l ik e a n y o th e r e v i d e n c e a n d i t is n o t tr e a t e d i n a n y s p e c ia l w a y. O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n th a t – t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t h e r e f o r e a p o l o g is e f o r t h e u s e o f w o r d r i n g - f e n c e d b e c a u s e i t w a s a c t u a ll y i n t e n d e d t o m e a n t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n to t h e c o n fl ic t is s u e is to b e d e a l t w i t h s e p a r a te ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t is c e r t a in ly n o t s e c r e t . CHAIRPERSON : J a , j a , n o i t i s j u s t t h a t i t w i ll b e d e a l t w it h la t e r b e c a u s e t h e r e i s s ti ll t h e is s u e o f w h o m u s t h e a r i t t h a t m u s t b e d e a l t w i t h f ir s t . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d in l in e w it h t h e a p p r o a c h o f t h e D C J p a r ti c u l a r l y i n r e la t io n t o M c B r id e ’s e v id e n c e w e w il l t h e n a c c e p t t h a t th is – th a t p a r ti c u l a r e v id e n c e w h i c h i s c o n t a i n e d a ll i n A n n e x u r e s Ex h i b it Z F. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W i ll n o t b e d e a l t w it h … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll n o t b e d e a l t w it h a t t h is s t a g e . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : D u r in g th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t w il l b e c o n s i d e r e d a n d d e t e r m i n e d o n c e t h e c o n fl ic t i s s u e in r e l a ti o n t o Mc B r i d e ’s e v i d e n c e has been determined. Page 7 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : To s e t c l a r i t y fo r a ll o t h e r matters. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O f a s i m i la r n a tu r e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 10 I f I m a y th e n r e q u e s t t h a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r w i t n e s s b e s w o r n i n p l e a s e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e l e g a l t e a m m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e d e c id e d i t – it m a y b e i m p o r t a n t ju s t a s a n a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e a s t o w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n o f th e – o f M r M c B r i d e w a s a n d Mr S e s o k o w a s it m a y t h a t e a c h w i t n e s s w h o h a s s o m e t h in g to s a y a b o u t e v i d e n c e th a t w il l b e d e a lt w i t h l a t e r is a ls o a n n o u n c e d b u t i t c o u l d b e t h a t i t c o u ld b e a n n o u n c e d l a te r w h e n t h e e v i d e n c e i s g i v e n . S o I l e a v e th a t t o t h e le g a l te a m a n d t h e w i tn e s s e s c o n c e r n e d . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Johan Wessel Booysen. REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Page 8 of 212 No. 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r conscience? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r th a t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e w ill b e t h e t r u t h ; th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u t h ; i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So help me God. REGISTRAR: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e fo r e M s S e p t e m b e r s t a r ts I h e a r d h e r s a y i n g o r 10 r a th e r M r P r e t o r iu s s a y M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a n d M s S e p te m b e r s a i d General Booysen. I m u s t j u s t c o n fe s s t h a t I g e t v e r y c o n f u s e d w i t h p o li c e a n d m il i ta r y ti t le s s o m a y b e l e t u s s t a r t b y y o u c l a r i fy i n g i s i t M a jo r G e n e r a l , is i t G e n e r a l ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir I a m not rank conscious but you can either address me as just General or Mr B o o y s e n o r J o h a n i f y o u w a n t to t h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is a lr i g h t I j u s t t h o u g h t I w o u l d c o n fe s s m y – m y ig n o r a n c e j u s t o n a l ig h t e r n o t e t a l k i n g a b o u t M a j o r G e n e r a l Booysen and General Booysen when one of my sons was much younger 20 a n d I w a s J u d g e P r e s id e n t h e a s k e d m e w h o is h ig h e r, is i t J u d g e P r e s i d e n t o r Pr e s id e n t? S o I to ld h i m t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y is th e h i g h e s t o ff ic e . S o w i th M a j o r G e n e r a l I a ls o w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is t h e G e n e r a l o r M a j o r b u t I u n d e r s ta n d i t m u s t b e G e n e r a l I d o n o t k n o w. B u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I w a n t e d t o s a y t h a n k y o u f o r c o m i n g fo r w a r d t o a s s is t t h e c o m m i s s io n . Page 9 of 212 W e a p p r e c ia t e i t. Yo u 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p r o b a b ly k n o w t h a t w e h a v e b e e n c a ll in g f o r p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n h e a d i n g d e p a r t m e n ts o r h e a d i n g u n i ts a n d o t h e r p e o p l e t o c o m e – p l e a s e c o m e f o r w a r d a n d s h a r e w i t h th e c o m m i s s io n a n d w i t h t h e n a ti o n w h a t t h e y k n o w i n t e r m s o f th in g s t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d i n t h e p a s t in t h e ir d e p a r t m e n ts a n d e l s e w h e r e t h a t r e l a te t o s t a t e c a p t u r e , th a t r e l a t e s t o s e r i o u s c o r r u p ti o n th a t f a l ls w i t h i n o u r t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . S o I r e a ll y a p p r e c i a te i t t h a t y o u h a v e c o m e f o r w a r d . T h a n k y o u v e r y much. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. May I address you as General? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Yo u m a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . I f I c o u l d a s k y o u t o l o o k a t b u n d l e Z A w h ic h i s t h e o n e o f th e l e v e r a r c h fi le s b e f o r e y o u ? A n d i f I c a n a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 1 o f t h a t b u n d l e ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h is d o c u m e n t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c a n t h e n a s k y o u to t u r n t o 20 p a g e 7 0 o f t h e s a m e b u n d le ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h e s i g n a t u r e o n th a t page? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir t h a t i s m y s ig n a tu r e . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u d e p o s e d t o t h is a ffi d a v i t o n t h e 2 A p r il 2 0 1 9 b e f o r e a C o m m i s s i o n e r o f Page 10 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 O a th s ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T hank you. If I can now ask y o u to t u r n t o a n d p l e a s e b e a r w i t h m e o n t h e c h a n g e o f E x h i b i t n u m b e r s b u t i t w o u l d b e Z C . I n d o i n g s o c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 1 o f th is a ffi d a v i t ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h is d o c u m e n t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e id e n ti fy it ? MAJOR 10 GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN : C h a ir it is a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it t h a t I d e p o s e d t o . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f y o u t u r n to p a g e 4 o f t h a t same bundle. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And the signature that a p p e a r s t h e r e C h a ir i s m y s ig n a tu r e a n d i t w a s m a d e u n d e r o a th a t t h e G a r s f o n t e in P o lic e S t a ti o n . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : And that was on the 9 April 2 0 1 9 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 20 O k a y. T h i s p a r t ic u l a r a ff i d a v i t c o r r e c t s c e r t a i n ty p o g r a p h ic a l e r r o r s i n y o u r m a i n a ff id a v i t . If I c a n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 2 o f i t a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 3 0 o f y o u r m a i n a ff id a v i t t h e d a te w a s i n c o r r e c t ly s t a te d a s M a y 2 0 11 a n d o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n r e f le c te d M a y 2 0 1 0 ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Page 11 of 212 Is i t a l s o c o r r e c t th a t in 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p a r a g r a p h 4 0 o f y o u r m a i n a ffi d a v i t t h e d a t e o f 8 A u g u s t 2 0 11 o u g h t to h a v e b e e n 8 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : T h a t is a ls o c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : y o u t o tu r n t o E x h i b it Z E p l e a s e . T hank you. If I can now ask L ik e w is e p l e a s e tu r n t o p a g e 1 a n d k in d ly i d e n t i fy th e d o c u m e n t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir th a t i s a s e c o n d s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t t h a t I d e p o s e d t o a n d w h ic h I s i g n e d o n t h e 1 5 10 A p r il a t M i d r a n d a n d i t w a s c o m m is s i o n e d i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f a Commissioner of Oaths. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Thank you. A n d th a t – s o r r y a n d t h is p a r ti c u l a r a ff i d a v i t w a s s i g n e d o n th e 1 5 A p r il 2 0 1 9 , t h a t is correct? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c a n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 2 o f t h e s a m e a ff id a v i t a n d p a r a g r a p h 6 i n p a r tic u la r. Th e r e a r e fu r th e r ty p o g r a p h ic a l c o r r e c t i o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r e tir e d i n t h e y e a r o f 2 0 1 7 a n d n o t 2 0 1 6 a s r e c o r d e d i n p a r a g r a p h s 4 20 a n d 5 o f y o u r m a i n a ff i d a v i t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . A s y o u w o u l d h a v e h e a r d fo r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y y o u n e e d n o t r e f e r a t a ll t o E x h i b i t Z F. Tu r n i n g t o p a g e 1 o f y o u r m a in a ffi d a v i t in Fi l e Z A is i t c o r r e c t f ir s t ly t h a t y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h i c h is y o u r m a i n a ffi d a v i t y o u r f ir s t Page 12 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a n d y o u r s e c o n d s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it s a r e a ll tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Thank you. I n th a t i n s ta n c e c a n I a s k y o u t o p l e a s e i n y o u r o w n w o r d s in f o r m t h e C h a i r a b o u t y o u r c a r e e r i n t h e s e r v ic e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir I j o in e d i n 1 9 7 6 a s a c o n s t a b l e w h e r e I w a s a p a t r o l p e r s o n , a p a tr o l m a n a n d I r e t ir e d a s I s a id F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 . D u r in g m y c a r e e r I a c q u ir e d c e r ta i n a c a d e m ic 10 q u a li fi c a t io n s I d o n o t k n o w i f i t i s n e c e s s a r y t o g o i n t o t h a t? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e y o u a r e w e lc o m e t o . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I o b ta i n e d a N a t io n a l D i p l o m a i n P o l ic e A d m i n is tr a ti o n . I a l s o h a d a d e g r e e in p o lic i n g . I a ls o h a v e a P o s t G r a d u a t e q u a li fi c a t io n i n m a n a g e m e n t . I have been tr a i n e d b y th e F B I i n t h e U n i t e d S t a te s o f A m e r i c a . I have also r e c e i v e d tr a i n i n g b y t h e F B I i n S o u t h A fr ic a . P o lic e U n iv e r s it y – Fo r e n s ic U n iv e r s it y. I a tt e n d e d t h e C h i n e s e I done a number of internal c o u r s e s i n S o u th A fr ic a n r a n g i n g fr o m f o r e n s i c c o u r s e s t o i n v e s t ig a ti v e c o u r s e s to m a j o r c a s e m a n a g e m e n t a n d a ls o M a n a g e r i a l c o u r s e s . 20 h a v e a t t e n d e d a n u m b e r o f h ig h c o u r ts a l l o v e r t h e c o u n tr y. I I have t e s ti fi e d i n a n u m b e r o f h i g h c o u r t s i n th e c o u n tr y. I h a v e a ls o t e s ti fi e d a t I t h i n k t h is is m y f o u r t h c o m m i s s i o n o f i n q u ir y i n w h i c h I a m t e s ti fy in g . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c a n j u s t a s k y o u to p a u s e t h e r e . P l e a s e i n d ic a te t h e C h a ir w h i c h C o m m i s s io n s o f In q u i r y to g a v e Page 13 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 evidence at? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : C h a i r t h e f ir s t o n e I k e e p o n f o r g e t t in g th e n a m e b u t i t r e l a t e s t h e k il li n g o f e i g h t e e n A N C members at Shobas hobane in 1995. There C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y i n w h i c h I t e s t i fi e d . was a subsequent I l a t e r t e s ti f ie d a t t h e A l e x a n d e r C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y i n to t a x i v io l e n c e . A n d m o r e r e c e n t ly I te s t i fi e d a t th e M o g o r o C o m m is s i o n o f In q u ir y. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 10 During your term serving the S o u th A f r ic a n P o lic e S e r v i c e s c a n y o u j u s t a t a h i g h e r l e v e l i n d ic a te t h e r a n k s th a t y o u h a v e h e ld a n d th e c a p a c i ti e s i n p a r ti c u la r t h a t y o u h a v e held during your service? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Chair as I said I jo in e d in 1 9 7 6 t h o s e d a y s y o u h a d t o w r i t e e x a m s to b e c o m e a n o ffi c e r a s o p p o s e d t o t o d a y w h e r e y o u h a v e t o a p p ly f o r a c e r t a in p o s t s o I went th r o u g h e x a m in a ti o n s . the – th e processes of w r i ti n g the necessary I e v e n t u a l ly b e c a m e a c o m m i s s io n e d o ff ic e r i n 1 9 8 7 . S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t y o u r p r o m o ti o n s a r e a c c o r d i n g t o w h e r e y o u fi n i s h e d 20 o ff on the c a n d id a te o ffi c e r ’s course. With th e new d is p e n s a t i o n i n 1 9 9 5 th e r e w a s a d i ff e r e n t p r o c e s s . I h e l d t h e r a n k o f a L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l j u s t p r i o r to t h e n e w d e m o c r a tic in s t i tu t io n . A fe w w e e k s l a t e r I w a s p r o m o t e d t o th e r a n k o f fu ll C o lo n e l a n d s u b s e q u e n t in t h e n e w d i s p e n s a ti o n I w a s p r o m o t e d in t e r a l i a to t h e r a n k o f a B r i g a d ie r a n d a M a jo r G e n e r a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k Yo u . Page 14 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m e n t i o n e d t h a t y o u r e t ir e d fr o m th e S o u th A fr ic a P o li c e S e r v ic e s d u r i n g S e p – d u r i n g February of 2017. H o w d o e s th a t d a te c o m p a r e t o th e d a te o f y o u r r e tir e m e n t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll b e f o r e th a t I s e e i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u a ls o m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u w e r e a ls o D e p u ty Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r i n K Z N a t s o m e s ta g e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a i r i f I m a y ju s t c la r i fy t h a t ? CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : W h e n th e – w i t h t h e a d v e n t o f t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h e D P C I k n o w n a s th e H AW K S C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d s w e r e a p p o i n te d a s P r o v i n c i a l H e a d s a n d a ls o t h e y a l s o b e c a m e D e p u ty P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r s . S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t t h e r e w a s t h e G l e n i s t e r 20 is s u e in – t h a t w e n t u p t o t h e c o n s t it u ti o n a l c o u r t t h a t h a d c h a n g e d s u b s e q u e n t ly b u t d u r i n g m y t i m e I w a s a ls o t h e D e p u t y P r o v i n c ia l Commissioner for KZN. CHAIRPERSON : That p o s it i o n of being D e p u ty Provincial C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s i t li n k e d t o th e P o l ic e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r o r w a s it i n r e l a t i o n to t h e H AW K S ? I a m j u s t t r y i n g t o s e e w h e t h e r t h a t Page 15 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p u t s y o u a s e i t h e r t h e s e c o n d i n c o m m a n d o f t h e p o l ic e i n th e p r o v i n c e o r o n e o f th e D e p u ty P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r s i n th e w h o le p o l ic e s e r v ic e o r w h e th e r i t w a s s i m p ly D e p u t y Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r in r e l a ti o n t o t h e H AW K S ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir I e l u d e t o t h a t la t e r o n i n m y a ff id a v i t b u t i f I c a n e x p l a i n it n o w ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h a t h a p p e n e d is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W e w e r e a ll a p p o i n te d a s D e p u ty P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r s a n d I t h i n k t h a t w a s t o c ir c u m v e n t t h e p r o b le m w h e r e t h e r e w e r e o t h e r D e p u ty P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r s a s w e ll t h a t – s o i t o b v ia t e d u s r e p o r ti n g t o th e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOOYSEN : S o a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e w e – I h a d tw o p e o p l e th a t I r e p o r te d t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I r e p o r te d t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r a n d t o t h e N a t i o n a l H e a d o f t h e H AW K S > 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : B u t m u c h la t e r th e r e w a s t h e G l e n is t e r c h a ll e n g e i n th e h i g h c o u r t t h a t e v e n t u a l ly e n d e d u p t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t w h e r e th e c o n s t i t u t io n a l c o u r t h e l d t h a t I s h o u l d r e p o r t d i r e c tly t o th e N a t i o n a l H e a d o f th e H AW K S w h o i n tu r n w o u ld n o t r e p o r t t o t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t th e ti m e b u t t o t h e M i n is t e r Page 16 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o f P o li c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i t m a y b e h e l p f u l t o a s k t h a t s l id e 1 b e p l a c e d o n s c r e e n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h e r e a s li d e y o u w a n t t o s h o w ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Okay let us see. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h is p a r ti c u la r s l id e i s i n f a c t found in your – in bundle… 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w e a lr e a d y h a v e i t I r e m e m b e r i t j a . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Z D . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Z D i n f a c t c o n ta in s a ll o f t h e a ti m e li n e a n d d ia g r a m s th a t w il l b e r e fe r r e d t o a t d i ff e r e n t i n t e r v a l s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : D u r in g M r B o o y s e n ’s e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : G e n e r a l – G e n e r a l B o o y s e n i f I m a y ? T h e s li d e t h a t y o u s e e b e f o r e y o u , i s i t c o r r e c t th a t t h is s l id e w a s 20 g iv e n to y o u b y t h e c o m m is s i o n t o c o n s i d e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOO YSEN : I am not too sure if it is t h e s a m e o n e th a t I a l t e r e d . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s t h e r e i s c e r t a i n l y a n o t h e r s li d e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y. Page 17 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : To b e s h o w n n o w w h ic h i s … MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Okay I – A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u r o n e i n p a r t ic u l a r. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I concede this was g iv e n to m e b y t h e – b y t h e c o m m is s i o n . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y th a n k y o u . T h e s li d e is r e a l ly j u s t t o o r i e n t a t e th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a r e a b o u t to g iv e . I f I c a n t h e n a s k f o r S li d e 2 ? Is it c o r r e c t t h a t a ft e r c o n s id e r in g S l i d e 1 y o u h a d h i g h li g h t e d c e r t a in e n t it i e s w i th in t h e s tr u c tu r e th a t y o u r e v id e n c e 10 addresses? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t t o o r ie n t a te t h is p a r tic u la r d i a g r a m w h e n w e lo o k a t t h e p o lic e c l u s t e r i f I m a y ? T h a n k y o u . C a n y o u f o r t h e r e c o r d i n fo r m t h e d i ff e r e n t e n ti ti e s o r p o s i ti o n s th a t y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e d e a lt w it h a t t h i s h e a r i n g w i ll a d d r e s s ? CHAIRPERSON : W e ll y o u a s k e d h i m w h e th e r h e h i g h li g h te d c e r t a in e n t i ti e s o r s e c t io n s a n d o n th e s li d e th a t y o u w e r e s h o w i n g t h e n w e c o u l d s e e c o m e s o m e t h a t s e e m e d t o b e h i g h li g h te d o r d a r k e n e d a n d in 20 t h e o n e t h a t y o u a r e s h o w i n g n o w w e c a n s e e s o m e th a t a r e d a r k e n e d . D o y o u w a n t h i m t o j u s t t o c o n fi r m w h e t h e r t h e o n e s h e h i g h li g h te d a r e t h e o n e s t h a t h a v e b e e n s h a d e d o r s o m e th in g ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : D o y o u c o n fi r m th a t … MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : h i g h l ig h ts C h a ir. Page 18 of 212 Those are my 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . In p a r ti c u la r t h e r e is a s li g h t v a r i a ti o n to t h is p a r tic u l a r d ia g r a m a s c o m p a r e d t o t h e o n e t h a t y o u w e r e p r o v i d e d w i t h w h i c h is a t S l i d e 1 ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e i d e n ti f y t h e d i ff e r e n c e in s t r u c t u r e a n d w h y y o u h i g h li g h te d a d i ff e r e n c e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir i f o n e c o u ld g o b a c k to t h e p r e v io u s , th e p r e v i o u s s li d e . I t a c t u a l ly s h o w s t h e li n e a t i o n 10 o f t h e a c tu a l c o m m a n d s tr u c t u r e i s o l a t i n g f r o m th e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f th e H a w k s to h i s N a ti o n a l O ff ic e . U n d e r h i m a t N a t io n a l O ff ic e h e h a d c e r t a i n c o m p o n e n t h e a d s w h e r e a s i n t h e s e c o n d s li d e I d e li n e a t e d t h e r a n k s t r u c t u r e fr o m N a t io n a l H e a d to my s e l f a s a Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d a n d t h e n th e d i ff e r e n t c o m p o n e n ts i n th e P r o v i n c e t h a t r e p o r te d t o m e . CHAIRPERSON : Under you? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h i s p a r ti c u l a r s li d e ta lk s to – i f I c o u l d u s e t h e t e r m c l u s te r, v a r i o u s c lu s t e r s . 20 J u s t ic e , In t e l li g e n c e , Fi n a n c e , Governance, S u c h b e i n g P o l ic e , Parliament and the P r e s i d e n c y. To w h a t e x t e n t a r e th e s e d i ff e r e n t c l u s t e r s d e p e n d e n t u p o n e a c h o th e r in t h e c h a i n o f t h e C r i m i n a l J u s ti c e S y s t e m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Mr C h a ir i n m y v i e w t h e o n e c a n n o t d o w it h o u t t h e o t h e r. T h e y a l l f o r m v e r y i m p o r t a n t g e a r s in t h is b i g m a c h i n e r y a n d if a n y o n e o f t h o s e a r e a b s e n t t h e w h o l e Page 19 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 J u s t ic e S y s t e m w il l b e c o m p r o m is e d in m y v ie w C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . I t w a s y o u r e v id e n c e th a t you were appointed as the Pr o v in c i a l Head of the Hawks in K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a n d t h a t y o u h e l d a t th e ti m e t h e r a n k o f M a j o r G e n e r a l a n d t h a t y o u w e r e a ls o t h e D e p u ty P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r in K Z N a t t h e ti m e . T h a t is c o r r e c t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t ta lk in g to y o u r p a r ti c u l a r s li d e i t w a s p r i o r t o th is a p p o i n t m e n t o r r a th e r le t m e a s k th e q u e s t i o n . W h a t 10 p o s i ti o n d i d y o u h o l d b e fo r e t h a t p a r t ic u l a r a p p o i n t m e n t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I w a s j u s t p r i o r t o t h a t a p p o i n t m e n t t h e t h e n Sc o r p i o n s w e r e d is s o l v e d . I w a s t h e n t h e H e a d - a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t i m e I w a s t h e H e a d o f O r g a n i s e d C r i m e i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a n d p r io r t o t h a t I w a s t h e H e a d o f S e r i o u s a n d Vio l e n t Crime. S e r i o u s a n d Vi o le n t C r i m e a n d O r g a n is e d C r i m e e v e n t u a l ly a m a l g a m a te d a n d I w a s t h e n t h e H e a d o f O r g a n is e d C r i m e p r i o r to m y appointment as Head of the Hawks. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u w e r e a l s o c e a s e d w it h o th e r d e p a r t m e n ts w h ic h w e r e s u p p o r t fu n c t i o n s t o th e c o r e 20 u n i ts ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n y o u p l e a s e in d ic a t e w h a t t h o s e s u p p o r t fu n c t io n s w e r e w h i c h i s a c t u a l ly r e fe r e n c e d in p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t ? Page 20 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: c la r i fy t h a t. C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t I n p o lic e p a r l o u r w e r e f e r t o s u p p o r t f u n c ti o n s H u m a n R e s o u r c e s , F i n a n c e - F in a n c i a l D e p a r t m e n ts e t c e t e r a w h ic h I w a s a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e fo r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: But there were other s u b c o m p o n e n ts w h ic h I w o u ld r a th e r c a l l t h e m t h a t r e s o r t e d u n d e r my command. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W h ic h a r e i n t e r a li a S e r io u s C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s , S e r io u s O r g a n is e d C r i m e a n d th e A s s e t F o r fe i tu r e In v e s t i g a t io n U n i ts . A lt h o u g h t h e As s e t Fo r f e it u r e U n i ts w e r e a c t u a ll y r a n b y a n a d v o c a t e fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty t h e y a ls o h a d a n i n v e s ti g a tiv e c a p a c i ty w h i c h r e p o r t e d t o m e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. L o o k in g a t th e fo u r b l o c k s i n t h a t p a r tic u l a r d ia g r a m o n y o u r s li d e t w o u n d e r th e c l u s t e r o f P o lic e - f o r t h o s e o f u s lik e m e w h o m a y n o t f u lly u n d e r s ta n d c a n I a s k t h a t y o u ju s t e x p l a i n t h e r e la t io n s h ip i n s i m p l e t e r m s b e t w e e n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e , S A P S , t h e H a w k s a n d I P I D p l e a s e ? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: SAPS. C h a ir w i t h r e g a r d s t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e is a c o m p o n e n t o f S A P S , o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v ic e s a n d s o a r e th e H a w k s , th e D P C I . T h e y a r e a n in t e g r a l p a r t o f S A P S w h e r e s u p p o s e d t o I P I D . T h e y a r e n o t a n e n ti t y o f S A P S . T h e y a r e a n in d e p e n d e n t e n ti ty a n d th e y w o r k o n t h e ir o w n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . S o fr o m w h a t p o s i t i o n d o Page 21 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 y o u g i v e e v i d e n c e to d a y ? I s it o n e o f a c i v il ia n o r i s o n e b a s e d o n y o u r p r o f e s s i o n a l e x p e r ie n c e i n th e s e r v ic e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I r e g a r d m y e v i d e n c e t h a t I w il l g iv e to t h is C o m m i s s i o n a s b e i n g p a r t o f th e p o lic e s tr u c t u r e s f o r a b o u t 4 0 y e a r s o f m y l i f e u n ti l I r e tir e d a n d m o r e s p e c i f ic a l ly to e v e n ts m o r e r e c e n tl y f r o m a r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 1 0 . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t y o u 10 m a k e a p a r t ic u l a r a s s e r ti o n in r e l a ti o n t o t h e c a p tu r e o f i n d iv i d u a ls . C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n y o u r ? C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t h i m ju s t a r t ic u l a te i t. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Please. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir i t is m y v i e w t h a t fo r r e a s o n s th a t I w il l e la b o r a t e o n f u r t h e r in m y e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t c e r t a i n e l e m e n ts – a n d n o t a ll o f t h e m – c e r t a i n e l e m e n ts w it h in th e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t a n d th e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r i ty h a d b e e n c a p t u r e d f o r. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: For reasons of own in t e r e s t a n d i n o t h e r c a s e s t o , t o p r o m o te o r t o f o l l o w a p a r tic u la r a g e n d a o r n a r r a t iv e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : For – at the behest of Page 22 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p o li t ic a l – p e o p le w it h p o li t ic a l p o w e r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: O r in s o m e i n s t a n c e s fr o m p o li t ic i a n s w h o w e r e d i r e c t ly i n v o lv e d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm, thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Major General Booysen how would y o u e x p l a i n y o u r r e c o r d o f w o r k d u r i n g y o u r s e r v i c e s i n c e y o u s ta r t e d i n 1976? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 C h a ir I r e g a r d m y s e l f a s a b o r n p o l ic e m a n . I t w a s m y p a s s i o n m y w h o l e li f e . I t w a s n o t a j o b f o r m e . I t w a s a p a s s i o n . I h a d a n u n b l e m is h e d c a r e e r. I h a d r e c e iv e d n u m e r o u s n a t io n a l a w a r d s f r o m t h e v a r io u s N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r s i n t h e p r e v i o u s d is p e n s a t io n a n d i n t h e c u r r e n t d i s p e n s a ti o n . I have r e c e i v e d a n u m b e r o f a w a r d s a t P r o v i n c i a l l e v e l a n d I w a s a ls o r e c o g n is e d b y th e p r e v i o u s H e a d o f I n t e r p o l a n d u p u n ti l t h e e v e n t s t h a t u n f o l d e d r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 1 0 I h a d a n u n b l e m is h e d c a r e e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i n r e l a ti o n to t h e p o i n t y o u a r t ic u l a t e d e a r l i e r o n y o u s a id y o u b e li e v e t h a t th e e v i d e n c e y o u w il l g iv e w i ll s u p p o r t t h e s t a te m e n t 20 you have made about certain s e c ti o n s of the Law Enforcement Agencies being captured? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e t h a t c a m e a b o u t i n y o u r r e c o r d . W h a t w a s t h e tr i g g e r in y o u r v ie w f o r t h e c h a n g e in t h e u n b l e m is h e d r e c o r d t h a t y o u h a d d u r i n g Page 23 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 y o u r s e r v ic e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Chair I have no doubt in my m i n d th a t t h e tr i g g e r f o r t h e c h a n g e i n m y e x p e r ie n c e i n t h e p o li c e c a m e a b o u t r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 1 0 w h e n I i n i t ia t e d a c o r r u p t i o n in v e s t i g a t io n r e l a ti n g t o t h e b u s i n e s s o f a w e a l th y b u s in e s s m a n i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l b y t h e n a m e o f To s h a n P a n d a y a n d h is li n k s w it h c e r t a i n s e n i o r p o li c e o ffi c i a ls . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In t h a t in s t a n c e c a n I a s k f o r s li d e t h r e e to p l e a s e b e d is p l a y e d ? F o r y o u r e a s e o f r e fe r e n c e y o u w i ll fi n d 10 t h a t p a r t ic u l a r s li d e i n E X H I B I T Z D . CHAIRPERSON : Can you arrange for me to get a hard copy of the same thing because I do not think I have got it here? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir y o u w o u l d fi n d i t i n E X H I B I T ZD. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. I m i s s e d t h a t . T h a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t is p a g e 3 o f t h a t b u n d le . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . T h is d ia g r a m r e p r e s e n ts a ti m e li n e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n to t h e P a n d a y i n v e s ti g a t i o n o r 20 r a th e r th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n t o th e b u s in e s s m a n , M r To s h a n P a n d a y. Is that correct? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is i t a ls o c o r r e c t th a t th is d i a g r a m i n f a c t c o n s o li d a t e s i n t i m e o r d e r w h ic h m a y n o t b e e x a c t ly r e fl e c t e d i n ti m e s e q u e n c e in y o u r a ff i d a v i t , b u t th a t th e w a y in w h ic h i t is d e s c r i b e d Page 24 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 in t h e t i m e l in e i s i n f a c t c o r r e c t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o if w o u ld th e n s t a r t i n t h e f ir s t b l o c k a n d y o u c o u l d u s e th e n t h i s a s y o u r g u i d e t o g iv in g t h e e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n . P l e a s e e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d o n 2 8 A p r il 2 0 1 0 a n d i n y o u r o w n w o r d s a m p li fy y o u r evidence? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir n o r m a ll y at senior management level we have management meetings every morning 10 a t p r o v i n c ia l l e v e l. D u r in g t h o s e m e e ti n g s t h o s e m e e ti n g s a r e c h a ir e d b y th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r, s o D e p u ti e s a n d th e n a ll th e s e n i o r o ffic e r s f r o m t h e r e s p e c ti v e c o m p o n e n t s f o r i n s t a n c e t h e Fi n a n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d j u s t r e m i n d m e a g a in a s a t t h a t d a t e a s a t t h a t y e a r 2 0 1 0 w h a t y o u r p o s i t io n ? Were y o u a t th a t s t a g e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir a t th a t s ta g e I was Head of the Hawks. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e H e a d o f th e H a w k s P r o v i n c ia l O ffi c e ? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: At the rank of G e n e r a l. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . J a , y o u m a y p r o c e e d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : D u r i n g t h o s e m e e ti n g s it is fir s t a g e n e r a l m e e t in g r e g a r d i n g th e c r i m e i n t h e p r o v i n c e t h e p r e v i o u s n ig h t a n d t h e p r e v i o u s d a y a n d t h e r e a f t e r w e d is c u s s f in a n c i a l Page 25 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 is s u e s , h u m a n r e s o u r c e is s u e s , s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t is s u e s e tc e t e r a . O n 2 8 A p r il j u s t b e f o r e t h e m e e t in g c o m m e n c e d I w a s approached by a Brigadier Lawrence Kemp who was the Head of Fi n a n c i a l S e r v i c e s in K w a Z u l u - N a t a l P r o v in c e a n d h e i n d ic a t e d to m e t h a t t h e y h a d d is c o v e r e d th a t t h e r e a p p e a r s t o b e s o m e ir r e g u la r i ti e s w i t h r e g a r d s t o a n a c q u is it i o n o f c e r t a i n s e r v ic e s . So I asked him at t h a t m e e ti n g c o u l d h e p r e p a r e s o m e t h in g in w r i ti n g f o r m e a n d th e n g iv e i t to m e . T h e f o l l o w in g m o r n i n g b e fo r e t h e s a m e m e e ti n g h e c a m e u p t o m e a n d h e g a v e m e a c o p y o f a r e p o r t t h a t h e h a d c o m p i le d a n d 10 h e h a d a l s o p l a c e d o n e i n fr o n t o f - a t t h a t j u n c t u r e th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r h a d n o t a r r iv e d a t t h e m e e ti n g y e t. p l a c e d o n e i n fr o n t o f h e r – h e r e m p ty s e a t . So he had al so F o r s o m e r e a s o n I to o k t h a t o n e a w a y a n d I a s k e d K e m p t o ju s t l e t m e h a v e a l o o k a t i t b e f o r e w e , w e a c t u a l ly d is tr ib u t e t h e r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : D i d y o u s a y h e h a d a ls o g iv e n a c o p y o f t h e s a m e r e p o r t t o t h e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir h e a c t u a l ly – s h e w a s la t e th a t m o r n i n g . CHAIRPERSON : The Provincial Commissioner? 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . CHAIRPERSON : And who w o u ld have been the Pr o v in c i a l Commissioner at that time? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : That would have been Lieutenant General Mma monnye Ngobeni. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y a lr i g h t, b u t t h e m e e ti n g s th a t y o u a r e t a lk in g Page 26 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a b o u t i n t h e m o r n i n g s a r e t h e – a r e m e e t in g s t h a t i n h e r c a p a c i t y s h e w o u ld a t te n d a s w e l l? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: That p a r t ic u l a r m o r n in g s h e w a s l a t e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: And what. CHAIRPERSON : 10 S o y o u s a y y o u to o k t h e r e p o r t t h a t w a s m e a n t f o r her? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o w h i le w e w e r e s t a n d in g a r o u n d h e g a v e m e a c o p y o f th e r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And he placed one in fr o n t o f h e r e m p ty c h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So. CHAIRPERSON : And you took it? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So I took that one. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d I s a id t o h i m L a w r e n c e j u s t g iv e m e a d a y o r tw o t o s e e w h a t i s g o i n g o n h e r e b e c a u s e I q u ic k ly r e a d t h r o u g h i t a n d I s a i d j u s t g iv e m e a d a y o r t w o to s e e w h a t is h a p p e n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 27 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N e v e r th e le s s after t h a t p a r ti c u l a r m e e t i n g I w e n t b a c k t o my o ff ic e a n d I c a l l e d i n B r i g a d ie r A n d r e L a te g a n w h o w a s t h e H e a d o f C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e i n t h e p r o v i n c e a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e . S o I g a v e h i m t h e r e p o r t a n d I s a id t o him he should have the matter investigated and then inform me what, what was going on. S o h e – C h a ir a ls o w h a t w e d o is in t h e p o l ic e n o r m a l ly w h e n a c a s e g e ts r e g is t e r e d i t g o e s o n w h a t w e c a l l t h e C A S s y s te m . T h a t is w h e n a d o c k e t i s o p e n e d , b u t w h a t w e d o i n t h e p o li c e e s p e c i a l ly w i t h y o u r m o r e c o v e r t in v e s t i g a ti o n s b e c a u s e p o lic e o ffic e r s 10 h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e C A S S y s t e m t h e y c a n e s ta b l is h w h e n c o r r u p t io n c a s e s o r a n y o t h e r c a s e f o r t h a t m a t t e r i n w h ic h th e y c o u l d p o s s i b ly b e i m p l ic a t e d in i f a c a s e h a d b e e n r e g is t e r e d . S o w h a t w e s o m e t i m e s d o w e r e g i s t e r o n t h e s a m e s y s t e m a n i n q u ir y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Without, without s p e c i f y i n g w h a t it is a l l a b o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So once a ll the e v i d e n c e is e v e n t u a ll y g a th e r e d t o c o n v e r t i t to a n o ffi c i a l d o c k e t w e 20 w i ll t h e n c o n v e r t t h a t in q u ir y i n to a c r i m in a l in v e s ti g a t i o n d o c k e t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A l th o u g h t h e e n q u i r y is a c t u a l ly a ls o p a r t o f t h e c r i m in a l in v e s ti g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : And the same people who have a ccessed to what you called – did you say? Page 28 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e C A S S y s t e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d o y o u s p e ll t h a t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C-A-S. CHAIRPERSON : Oh. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So Criminal A d m i n i s t r a t io n S y s te m . CHAIRPERSON : O h , o k a y. T h e s a m e p e o p le w i t h a c c e s s t o t h a t s y s te m a ls o h a v e a c c e s s t o th e r e g is tr a ti o n o f i n q u ir ie s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 T h e y, they would C h a ir b u t w h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y d o n o t b o t h e r m o s t o f t h e ti m e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Because of th e r e q u ir e m e n t s i n r e g is te r i n g a c r i m in a l d o c k e t. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Yo u h a v e t o fi ll i n every aspect of. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O f w h a t is r e q u ir e d t o h a v e t h e d o c k e t r e g is t e r e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: As opposed to an in q u ir y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o g o in t o th a t d e t a il . S o i t i s v e r y d i ffi c u l t fo r a p o li c e m a n w h o w a n ts t o g o Page 29 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a n d s e e i f t h e r e is a c a s e b e i n g i n v e s t ig a t e d a g a i n s t h i m o r h e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : To g o a n d f is h a r o u n d t o s e e i f t h e r e is a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , th a n k y o u . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir s o . CHAIRPERSON : So you asked a? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B r ig a d i e r L a t e g a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Br i g a d i e r ? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : L a te g a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : L a t e g a n to i n v e s t ig a t e a n d r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u o n th is is s u e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: is h e b o o k e d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n o u t . S o w h a t h e d i d C h a ir A t t h a t p o i n t i t w a s to a C o l o n e l H a n s Va n L o g g e n b e r g a n d C o l o n e l Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y. T h e y w e r e t h e t w o l e a d i n v e s t ig a to r s i n th a t p a r t ic u l a r i n v e s ti g a ti o n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B e f o r e , b e f o r e y o u c o n ti n u e i f I c o u ld 20 ju s t i n t e r j e c t th e r e f o r a s e c o n d . C a n y o u ju s t g i v e c la r i ty to e x a c tl y w h a t t h is i n v e s ti g a t i o n c o n c e r n e d p le a s e ? W h a t w a s t h e n a tu r e o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir o n f a c e v a lu e a n d l o o k in g a t t h e i n it i a l r e p o r t fr o m , fr o m B r i g a d i e r K e m p . O n fa c e v a l u e i t w a s c l e a r t h a t th e r e h a d b e e n s o m e i r r e g u l a r i ti e s i n s u p p l y Page 30 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t a t p r o v i n c ia l l e v e l i n K w a Z u lu - N a ta l . CHAIRPERSON : At SAPS, S-A-P-S? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h e in d ic a t i o n s w e r e t h a t a ll tr a n s a c ti o n s d u r i n g t h e W o r l d C u p p e r io d p r e c e d i n g t h e W o r l d C u p a n d e v e n a f te r t h e a d v e n t o f t h e W o r l d C u p j u s t a b o u t e v e r y tr a n s a c ti o n h a d g o n e t h r o u g h t h e b o o k s o f o n e p a r t ic u l a r b u s i n e s s m a n in K w a Z u l u - N a t a l w h ic h w a s To s h a n P a n d a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: chain management. It was part of my I w o r k w i th s u p p ly f u n c ti o n and f i n a n c ia l management. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: a n d s u s p ic i o u s . So it just looked odd I m e a n b l a n k e ts , te l e v i s io n s e t s , a c c o m m o d a ti o n . c a n g iv e y o u p e r h a p s a n e x a m p l e . I P o l ic e h e a d q u a r t e r s – th e H i l to n H o t e l is s i tu a te d a b o u t t w o b lo c k s a w a y f r o m p o l ic e h e a d q u a r t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W h e n a s e n i o r o ff ic e r fr o m p o li c e n a ti o n a l h e a d o ffi c e h a d t o c o m e a n d v is i t i n K Z N a l th o u g h t h e h o t e l w a s r i g h t n e x t t o – w e l l t w o b lo c k s a w a y fr o m w h e r e w e w e r e it s ti ll w e n t th r o u g h th e b o o k s o f t h e b u s i n e s s m a n in U m h l a n g a R o c k s . S o i t ju s t s e e m e d o u t th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m , I a m s o r r y. I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w e n t Page 31 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 in t o t h e b o o k s o f s o m e b o d y i n U m h l a n g a R o c k s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o w h a t h a p p e n e d is C h a ir t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s is d e fi n e d i n t h e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s , o v e r a n d a b o v e a n a m o u n t y o u h a v e t o g e t te n d e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h e r e is a c e r t a i n a m o u n t w h ic h p e o p l e a t d i ff e r e n t l e v e ls c a n a u th o r is e th e m s e lv e s . CHAIRPERSON : Can approve [intervenes]. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d t h e n t h e r e is a ls o 10 a l o w e r le v e l a n d I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h a t i t is c a l l e d . I t is n o t t e n d e r s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Q u o t a ti o n s that We to is r ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: have get q u o t a t i o n s a n d t h e n y o u n e e d to – a n d t h e n a ls o t h e r e is a d a t a b a s e in t e r m s o f B E E s o i t g e ts a l l o c a t e d . S o t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p r o c e s s e s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 That must be f o ll o w e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d it a p p e a r e d fr o m t h a t i n it i a l r e p o r t t h a t th o s e p r o c e s s e s w e r e n o t f o ll o w e d . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , b u t y o u w e r e m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e a b o u t i f s o m e b o d y f r o m n a ti o n a l w a s v is i ti n g t h e p r o v in c i a l o ffi c e s o f S A P S a n d Page 32 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 y o u w e r e s a y i n g s o m e th i n g a b o u t th e H il t o n H o t e l . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: If I can g iv e a p r a c ti c a l e x a m p l e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I n m y c a p a c i ty a s H e a d o f t h e H a w k s . I f I w a n t e d to v is i t a n y p l a c e i n t h e c o u n tr y I f ill i n a n i t in e r a r y. I w i ll s e n d i t t o a t t h e ti m e t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d G e n e r a l A n w a D r a m a t . H e w i ll a u t h o r i s e i t a n d o ff I g o . M y s e c r e ta r y w il l d o m y b o o k i n g a t t h e h o te l . S h e w il l d o m y tr a n s p o r t a r r a n g e m e n ts e tc e te r a . 10 I n th is p a r t ic u l a r i n s ta n c e o ff ic e r s v i s i ti n g fr o m n a ti o n a l h e a d o ff ic e t h e ir a c c o m m o d a ti o n w a s p r o c u r e d a n d a c q u ir e d v i a th e b u s i n e s s m a n in Umhlanga Rocks. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h w a s o u ts id e o f t h e p r o c e s s e s - w h ic h w a s n o t in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h – w h ic h w o u l d n o t b e i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h th e n o r m a l processes? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a i r s tr ic t ly s p e a k in g I would not have had a pr oblem if it was one or two occasions. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B e c a u s e in v a r i a b ly w e 20 a ls o m a k e u s e o f e s p e c i a l ly w h e n i t c o m e s to tr a v e l li n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Certain agencies. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: B u t i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r in s t a n c e it a p p e a r e d t h a t e v e r y th in g fr o m b u y i n g o f t e l e v is i o n s e ts f o r Page 33 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p o li c e s t a ti o n s , b l a n k e ts f o r th e c e l ls , c e l l m a t tr e s s e s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Ac c o m m o d a t io n for p e o p l e c o m in g fr o m n a t io n a l h e a d o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: But the actual p r o b le m r e la t e d t o t h e a c q u is i t io n o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r t h e d e p lo y m e n t o f p o l ic e o ff ic e r s d u r i n g t h e W o r l d C u p , t h e W o r l d C u p S o c c e r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t w a s th e m a j o r part of. CHAIRPERSON : Of your concern? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Of the concern b e c a u s e a l th o u g h i t w e n t t h r o u g h t h e b o o k s o f o n e o r tw o c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th o s e close c o r p o r a t io n s w e r e a ll r e g is t e r e d in t h e n a m e o f o n e p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W h ic h was To s h a n P a n d y a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . I ju s t w a n t e d c l a r if ic a ti o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. General what did you do o n c e y o u c o n s id e r e d th e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s g i v e n to y o u b y B r i g a d ie r K e m p o n 3 M a y 2 0 1 0 ? Page 34 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir a t t h a t ju n c t u r e h e h a d a l r e a d y r e g i s t e r e d t h e e n q u ir y a n d I w a s c o n ti n u i n g w i th m y d a il y ta s k s a n d t h e r e w e r e d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts r e p o r t i n g t o m e . So o b v i o u s l y t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f i n v e s ti g a t i o n s w h i c h a r e r e p o r t e d t o m e b u t o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t I a m a l s o s e iz e d w i t h o t h e r m a t t e r s s u c h a s h u m a n r e s o u r c e m a n a g e m e n t li k e I h a v e e x p l a in e d b e f o r e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u a n d w h o w a s a ll o c a te d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 in v e s t i g a t o r s as I s a id was The two C o l o n e l H a n s Va n L o g g e n b e r g chief and C o l o n e l Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u a n d w h o r e g is t e r e d th e in q u ir y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir th e r e g is t r a t io n is a c t u a l ly a n a d m i n is tr a ti v e f u n c t i o n . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s L a t e g a n h i m s e l f o r e i t h e r t h e t w o in v e s ti g a t o r s b u t t h a t w a s j u s t a n a d m i n is tr a t iv e f u n c ti o n a lt h o u g h I m e n ti o n i n m y s t a t e m e n t o r t h i s d i a g r a m t h a t L a t e g a n w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h a t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 Thank you so much. What then h a p p e n e d d u r in g e a r ly M a y 2 0 1 0 a s y o u w e r e tr a v e ll in g h o m e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir I c a n r e c a ll t h is v iv id ly. I w a s d r iv i n g i n m y c a r. I j u s t e x i t e d t h e c i ty a n d I w a s o n , o n t h e fr e e w a y o n my w a y h o m e i n A m a n z i m t o ti w h ic h is o n t h e S o u t h C o a s t w h e n I r e c e i v e d a c a l l f r o m t h e t h e n P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r M m a m o n n y e N g o b e n i a n d I c o u l d h e a r f r o m h e r v o ic e s h e w a s ir r i ta t e d Page 35 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a n d s h e s a i d t o m e J o h a n w h a t is t h i s in v e s t ig a ti o n y o u a r e b u s y w i t h a n d I s a i d to w e l l G e n e r a l w h ic h o n e a r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t . T h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t w e a r e b u s y w i t h a n d t h e n s h e s a i d n o t h e s u p p ly c h a in m a n a g e m e n t o n e a n d t h e n I s t a r t e d e x p la i n i n g t o h e r b u t s h e k e p t o n i n te r r u p t in g m e a n d s h e s a id t o m e n o , n o , n o . W e a lr e a d y h a v e t h e s e p r o b l e m s a t M o u n t a i n R is e P o l ic e S t a t i o n . T h e p o li c e a r e – it is a n e m b a r r a s s m e n t t o t h e p o lic e . N o w s h e w a s r e f e r r i n g C h a ir t o a t t h a t p o in t i n ti m e th e r e w a s a n in v e s ti g a ti o n p e r t a in i n g to t h e m a n i p u l a ti o n o f p o l ic e s t a t is t ic s w h ic h e v e n t u a l ly c u l m i n a te d in t h e 10 p r o s e c u t i o n o f a n u m b e r o f s e n i o r o ffi c e r s a t M o u n t a i n R i s e a n d i t w a s q u i te p r o m i n e n t i n t h e m e d i a . S o s h e s a i d t o m e n o w e a lr e a d y h a v e t h is p r o b l e m a t M o u n t a in R is e a n d n o w f u r th e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n – w e a r e ju s t g o i n g to e m b a r r a s s t h e p o li c e m o r e a n d t h a t y o u m u s t s to p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : N o w w h e n s h e s a i d y o u m u s t s to p th is in v e s ti g a t io n w h ic h o n e w a s i t? D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d h e r to b e t a l k i n g a b o u t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: It was clear in my m i n d t h a t s h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t t h i s p a r ti c u l a r in v e s t i g a t io n a g a i n s t To s h a n P a n d a y. S h e th e n a b r u p t ly te r m in a te d th e c a l l C h a ir a n d t h a t i s 20 b a s ic a lly w h a t h a p p e n e d o n m y w a y h o m e . She told me to stop the in v e s t i g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w s h e r e fe r r e d t o i t w h e n y o u a s k e d h e r w h ic h o n e b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e l o t s o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t a r e o n g o i n g . S h e s a i d th e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t o n e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o , n o . W e ll j a t h a t is Page 36 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 what she said. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w s h e d e s c r i b e d i t , j a . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . T h a t is r ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t s t a g e w a s th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u g a v e to B r i g a d ie r L a te g a n the o n ly s u p p ly chain management one – in v e s t i g a t io n – t h a t y o u w e r e b u s y w i t h o r p e o p l e u n d e r y o u w e r e b u s y with? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 C h a ir m a y b e a t th a t p o i n t I h a d o n ly b e e n i n t h a t p o s it i o n f o r a b o u t tw o o r t h r e e m o n t h s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So that was the very fir s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s u p p l y c h a in . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: O r o n ly s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t o r in v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t I h a d b e e n in v o lv e d i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: R e l a ti n g t o o u r o w n d e p a r t m e n t. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o , s o t h e r e c a n b e n o d o u b t w h ic h o n e t h e tw o o f y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A b s o lu t e l y n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir. Page 37 of 212 A b s o l u te ly. 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D i d t h e P o li c e C o m m i s s i o n e r d u r in g t h a t c a l l a s k y o u a n y d e t a i ls a b o u t th e m a g n it u d e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n , t h e r o l e p l a y e r s i n v o lv e d o r a n y o th e r f a c t u a l d e t a i l i n r e la t io n to t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S h e d id n o t C h a ir. A s a m a t te r o f fa c t s h e h a r d ly g a v e m e ti m e t o s p e a k . As s o o n a s I w o u l d s t a r t t o t r y a n d e x p l a in s h e ju s t c u t m e o ff a n d s h e w a s a d a m a n t . S h e ju s t s a i d n o th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n m u s t s to p . 10 S h e d i d n o t a s k m e w h a t it w a s a b o u t , w h a t t h e m a g n i t u d e w a s o r w h a t i t i n v o lv e d . S h e s a id to m e I must stop. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e , y o u w e r e th e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f th e H a w k s at the time. Is that right? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d y o u - a t t h a t ti m e w a s it d u r i n g th e t i m e w h e r e y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o r e p o r t b o th to t h e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r a s w e ll a s t h e N a t i o n a l H e a d o f t h e H a w k s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . S o t e c h n ic a ll y s p e a k i n g c o u l d s h e te ll y o u t o s t o p a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n b y v ir tu e o f t h e fa c t t h a t y o u r e p o r t e d t o h e r o r is t h a t s o m e th i n g t h a t e v e n w i th h e r r a n k in g a b o v e y o u a n d t h e f a c t th a t y o u r e p o r t e d - s h e w a s o n e o f t w o p e o p le t o w h o m y o u r e p o r t e d – is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t i t w a s s h e c o u l d n o t u n d e r a n y c ir c u m s t a n c e s i n s tr u c t y o u t o s to p a n i n v e s t i g a t io n ? Page 38 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir s h e , s h e h a d t h e r i g h t t o g iv e m e i n s tr u c t io n s b u t m o s t d e fi n it e ly n o t t o s to p a n in v e s t i g a t io n . Th a t i n m y v i e w w a s a n u n l a w fu l i n s tr u c ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C e r t a i n ly i n t e r m s o f w h a t y o u h a d s e e n i n t h e r e p o r t th a t y o u w e r e g iv e n b y I t h in k B r i g a d i e r K e m p y o u s a w e n o u g h to ju s t i fy t h a t a n i n v e s ti g a t io n b e d o n e a t l e a s t p r e li m i n a r i ly a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e b u t s h e w a s s a y in g s to p th a t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s a n d y o u s a y s h e d id n o t g i v e y o u a c h a n c e t o r e s p o n d to h e r i n s tr u c ti o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o t w h e n w e h a d th e c o n v e r s a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m m e d i a t e ly, j a . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir n o t w h e n w e h a d th e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n t h e c a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: P le a s e t h e n c l a r i fy w h a t is t h e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e s a n d p r o t o c o ls to s t o p a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 C h a ir i t ’s quite s i m p l e , o n c e a d o c k e t h a d b e e n o p e n e d i t c a n o n l y, i t c a n b e c lo s e d i n v a r io u s w a y s , a n d I’ m g o i n g t o t r y a n d k e e p i t a s s i m p l e a s p o s s ib le . I f t h e r e ’s a h o u s e b r e a k in g c a s e i t g e t s i n v e s ti g a te d , fi n g e r p r in ts a r e t a k e n , w i t n e s s e s a r e in t e r v i e w e d b u t i f n o s u s p e c t s a r e i d e n t i fi e d a n d it ’s a d e a d - e n d c a s e t h e c a s e w il l b e c l o s e d b y a p o l ic e o ffi c e r a s u n d e te c t e d , a n d it r e m a in s o p e n fo r a p e r io d o f ti m e d e p e n d in g o n t h e Page 39 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n a t u r e o f th e i n v e s t ig a t io n , i f i t ’s a h o u s e b r e a k i n g c a s e a f te r f iv e y e a r s t h e y m i g h t d e s tr o y th e d o c k e t , i f i t’s a m u r d e r c a s e i t r e m a i n s o p e n in d e f i n i t e ly. W h e n th e r e ’s a s u s p e c t in th e m a t t e r l i k e i n t h is p a r ti c u la r in s t a n c e w h e r e n a m e s a r e m e n ti o n e d o f p e o p le th a t h a d o s t e n s i b l y c o m m i t t e d c r i m i n a l o ffe n c e s t h e r e i s n o a u th o r it y w i th in S A P S t o c lo s e o r s t o p a n in v e s ti g a t io n , th a t d o c k e t m u s t b e r e fe r r e d to t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r i ty to a P r o s e c u t o r w h o w i ll t h e n w e i g h t h e e v i d e n c e a n d d e c i d e w h e th e r h e i s g o in g to p r o s e c u te a p e r s o n o r a n i n d iv i d u a l or not. 10 I f h e s o f i n d t h a t t h e r e a r e r e a s o n s , la w f u l r e a s o n s w h y a p r o s e c u t i o n s h o u l d n o t p r o c e e d , fo r i n s t a n c e if t h e r e w a s a c a s e o f a s s a u l t b u t t h e p e r s o n a c t e d in s e lf d e f e n c e t h a t P r o s e c u to r m a y t h e n d e c i d e t o n o l i p r o s e c u t e o r d e c li n e to p r o s e c u te in a m a n n e r, a n d h e w i ll e n d o r s e a d o c k e t a s s u c h . T h e d o c k e t w il l b e s e n t b a c k to t h e p o li c e s t a t i o n a n d t h e Br a n c h C o m m a n d e r o f a c e r ta in r a n k w i ll t h e n c lo s e th a t d o c k e t , s o w i th r e g a r d s w i t h c l o s i n g o f d o c k e ts w h e r e t h e r e a r e s u s p e c ts i t m u s t b e b y t h e – c o n s e q u e n t t o a d e c is i o n o f a p r o s e c u t o r. N o p o li c e o ffic e r h a s t h e a u t h o r i ty t o s u m m a r i ly c l o s e a d o c k e t o r s to p a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n , u n l e s s i f t h e r e a r e s u s p e c ts in d i c a t e d in d i c a t e d i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o y o u r e c e i v e d t h is c a ll fr o m P o l ic e C o m m i s s i o n e r N g o b e n i , w h a t t h e n h a p p e n s th e n e x t d a y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir t h e n e x t d a y a ft e r th e m a n a g e m e n t m e e t i n g i n t h e m o r n i n g I c a ll e d in Br ig a d i e r L a t e g a n a n d I s a id t o h i m A n d r e w e ’v e g o t a p r o b l e m h e r e , t h e P C . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) Page 40 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : A n d t h a t m e e ti n g w a s s h e t h e r e th e Pr o v in c i a l Commissioner? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o t a t th is m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t a t t h i s o n e , o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o C h a i r s o I c a l le d in L a t e g a n t o m y o ffi c e a n d I s a id t o h i m A n d r e w e ’v e g o t a b i t o f a p r o b le m h e r e , a n d i n p o lic e p a r l a n c e w e r e f e r t o th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a s a P C , I s a i d th e P C h a s g i v e n a n i n s tr u c t io n t h a t w e m u s t s to p t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o w e n e e d t o s t o p th e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d h e 10 fr o w n e d a n d c o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d b a s e d o n w h a t a n d h e q u e s t i o n e d , a n d I s a i d w e ll A n d r e le t ’s – b r i n g b a c k t h e fi le a n d t h e n l e t ’ s s e e h o w t h i n g s d e v e lo p a n d h e le f t m y o ff ic e a n d h e w a s o b v i o u s ly n o t h a p p y, I s u s p e c t a t a l a te r s ta g e a n d I t h i n k L a te g a n a n d e v e n S o o b r a m o n e y a n d a fe w o t h e r p e o p l e a ls o t h o u g h t t h a t I w a s in c a h o o t s tr y in g t o s u p p r e s s t h e in v e s t i g a t io n , n e v e r t h e l e s s h e l e ft t h e o ffic e a n d h e la t e r o n c a m e b a c k w i t h a fi le t o my o ffi c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u a s k e d h i m t o b r i n g b a c k t h e f il e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. D i d y o u a s k h i m w h e th e r h e k n e w h o w th e 20 P r o v i n c ia l Commissioner mi g h t have got to know about th e in v e s t i g a t io n , B r i g a d ie r L a t e g a n , d i d y o u a s k h i m w h e th e r h e h a d a n y k n o w l e d g e a s t o h o w t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r g o t t o k n o w a b o u t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir I d o n ’ t h a v e a n in d e p e n d e n t r e c o ll e c t io n o f w h e th e r I a s k e d h i m t h a t o r n o t , b u t w h a t I Page 41 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d o k n o w is , w h i c h e m e r g e d l a t e r o n w a s t h a t Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g a n d S o o b r a m o n e y s t a r t e d t o m a k e e n q u ir ie s i n S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : O h t h o s e w e r e t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e a s s is ti n g Lategan? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , in t h e in v e s ti g a t io n . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t ’s r i g h t s o i t e m e r g e d d u r i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s t h a t th e y ’v e m a d e e n q u i r i e s to S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t a n d a t t h e Fi n a n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t s o w e 10 s u s p e c t e d t h a t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON : Somebody then ... MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W e l l s o m e o f th e p e o p l e a t S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t f o r m e d p a r t o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d w e s u s p e c t e d t h a t th e y p e r h a p s a le r t e d h e r t h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h t h is in v e s t i g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: B a s e d o n th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u ’v e g iv e n th a t th e p r o c e s s o f s to p p i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s i m p r o p e r w h y d i d y o u p r o c e e d t o in f o r m L a te g a n t o r e tu r n t h e f il e a n d s t o p t h e 20 in v e s t i g a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir a s I s a i d i n m y v ie w th a t w a s o b v i o u s ly a n u n la w f u l i n s tr u c ti o n a n d y o u h a v e to u n d e r s t a n d a n d I s a w M r M c Br i d e a ls o t e s t if y i n g a b o u t i t y e s te r d a y, in t h e P o li c e i f s o m e th i n g li k e t h a t is g o i n g o n a n d y o u g o in t h e o p p o s i t e d ir e c t io n y o u ’r e d e a d in t h e w a t e r. A l th o u g h in m y m i n d I w a s n e v e r Page 42 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 g o i n g t o s to p t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n , t h a t’s w h y I s a i d t o L a t e g a n l e t ’s s e e h o w t h i s t h in g d e v e l o p s b e c a u s e I a ls o k n o w t h a t t h e N a t io n a l H e a d o f the Hawks at that juncture was Dramat, Anwar Dramat, and I had no d o u b t in m y m i n d t h a t h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e p a r ty t o h a v in g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s t o p p e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o I w a s b a n k in g o n h is s u p p o r t la t e r o n , b u t in i ti a l ly I h a d t o ta k e th e fi le b a c k fr o m h i m . CHAIRPERSON : 10 S o y o u r i d e a w a s to h a v e th e fi le b r o u g h t b a c k w h i le y o u t h in k a b o u t h o w to h a n d le t h is s i t u a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : T h a t is s o C h a ir. Ye s , b e c a u s e i f t h e f il e d i d n ’ t c o m e b a c k B r i g a d i e r L a t e g a n a n d th o s e a s s is ti n g h i m c o u l d b e t a k i n g f u r t h e r s te p s a n d t h e n t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r c o u l d h e a r t h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a s n o t b e e n s to p p e d a n d s h e c o u ld c o m e b a c k t o y o u b e f o r e y o u h a d m a d e u p y o u r m in d a s to h o w t o h a n d le t h e s i t u a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir i t a c t u a l ly w e n t b e y o n d t h a t , w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n is , a n d in t h is p a r ti c u l a r i n s ta n c e i t d i d h a p p e n , p e o p l e lik e B r i g a d ie r K e m p , L a t e g a n , a n y o n e w h o h a d b e e n 20 in v o lv e d w i t h t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n w o u l d b e o s t r a c is e d b y th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d s h e w o u ld t a k e i t o u t o n t h e m a n d n o t e v e r y o n e h a s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n h a n d l e t h a t s i t u a t io n . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t ’s r ig h t C h a ir, s o I i n a w a y I h a d to p r o t e c t my i n v e s t ig a t o r s , b u t t h a t d i d n o t m e a n t h a t I Page 43 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 w a s i n a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s h o u l d s to p n o t a t a l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O n t h e 8 t h o f M a y, w h il e y o u w e r e a t h o m e , y o u r e c e i v e d a n o th e r t e l e p h o n e c a ll . C a n y o u p l e a s e s h a r e w i t h t h is C o m m is s i o n w h a t t r a n s p i r e d a n d w h o c a l l e d y o u o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r day? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I w a s i n m y d i n i n g r o o m w h e n I r e c e i v e d a c a l l o n m y c e l l u l a r p h o n e fr o m t h e s a m e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n N g o b e n i a n d s h e w a s v e r y ir r i ta t e d a n d s h e 10 a c t u a ll y s h o u t e d a t m e , s h e s a i d to m e “ J o h a n I t o l d y o u p e o p l e t o s t o p t h is in v e s t i g a t io n ” s o I s a i d t o h e r b u t G e n e r a l i t h a s b e e n s t o p p e d a n d s h e s a i d n o w h a t ’s w r o n g w i th y o u p e o p l e , o r w o r d s t o t h a t e ff e c t , a n d s h e s a id n o th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n – s o I tr ie d t o c o n v i n c e h e r n o th e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d s t o p p e d a n d t h e n I s a i d lo o k le t m e p h o n e B r i g a d i e r L a t e g a n a n d c o n f ir m w i t h h i m , s o w e t e r mi n a t e d t h e c a ll , I p h o n e d B r i g a d ie r L a t e g a n a n d I p h o n e d h e r b a c k a n d I s a i d to h e r lo o k I’ v e s p o k e n t o L a t e g a n a n d h e s a y s t h e y ’ r e n o t c o n t i n u in g w it h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d s h e a p p e a r e d t o b e h a p p y w i t h th a t r e s p o n s e . CHAIRPERSON : 20 This was, I see you say this was on 8 May 2010, a b o u t h o w l o n g a f t e r t h e fi r s t c a ll , w a s i t a w e e k o r a f e w d a y s o r t w o ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir t h e f ir s t c a l l i n m y c a r a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d c a l l? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: g u e s s , i t’s a b o u t b e t w e e n t w o a n d t h r e e w e e k s . Page 44 of 212 C h a ir I w o u l d h a v e t o 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, n o t h a t ’s f in e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: J u s t t o c la r i fy y o u m e n t io n e d t h a t t h e fir s t c a ll h a p p e n e d d u r i n g e a r ly M a y 2 0 1 0 a n d t h e s e c o n d c a ll t h e n h a p p e n e d o n th e 8 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON : That should be correct? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u n e v e r g o t t o k n o w w h a t i t is th a t m a y h a v e 10 m a d e h e r th i n k th a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s s ti ll g o i n g o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I h a d n o i d e a b u t I s u s p e c t e d a t t h a t ju n c t u r e w a s b e c a u s e c e r t a in i n d iv i d u a ls fr o m S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t , s u c h a s a C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e , w h o h a d a c l o s e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r, I s u s p e c te d th a t h e g o t w i n d o f t h e s to r y t h a t t h e r e w a s a n in v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h a t h e h a d alerted her to the i n v e s ti g a ti o n . It later emerged during the in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t th e r e w a s a p a r t ic u l a r m o t iv e f o r h e r a c ti o n s i n t h a t regard. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w h a t w a s th e in v o lv e m e n t o f L t G e n e r a l A n w a r D r a m a t , if t h e r e w a s a n y i n v o lv e m e n t o f h i m a t a ll , f o ll o w i n g t h e la s t c a l l t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: q u e s t io n . Page 45 of 212 C h a i r I d o n ’ t g e t th e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O k a y, s o a f t e r t h e la s t c a ll t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r N g o b e n i o n th e 8 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 0 d i d y o u r a i s e t h is is s u e w i th a n y o f y o u r s u p e r i o r s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No I did not i m m e d i a t e ly C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O k a y, w h e n d i d y o u r a i s e t h i s is s u e with any of your superiors? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o C h a ir w e o f te n h a v e n a t io n a l m e e t i n g s f o r v a r i o u s r e a s o n s , a n d I c a n ’ t r e c a ll t h e d a te 10 b u t i t w a s n o t t o o s o o n a f t e r w h a t h a d o c c u r r e d th a t w e h a d a N a t io n a l M e e ti n g w i t h a c o m p o n e n t, w e ll w i t h t h e P r o v in c i a l H e a d s w i th G e n e r a l D r a m a t a t t h e B u r g e r s p a r k H o te l i n P r e t o r i a a n d w e s t a r t e d t h e m e e t i n g a n d a t t h e fir s t t e a b r e a k h e c a m e a n d s t o o d n e x t t o m e a n d w e w e r e h h a v i n g t e a a n d h e a s k e d m e w h a t is t h i s s t o r y a b o u t t h is i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t ’s b e e n s to p p e d . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s th a t c o m in g to y o u t o a s k ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Dramat, General D r a m a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o I a s s u m e d a t th e ti m e t h a t , a n d I s u s p e c t , n o t t h a t I b la m e t h e m f o r th a t , t h a t i t i s e i th e r Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g o r S o o b r a m o n e y, a n d S o o b r a m o n e y l a t e r t o l d m e t h a t i t w a s in d e e d h i m , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y p h o n e d h i m o r w h e t h e r t h e y w e n t t o s e e h i m a n d to l d h i m a b o u t w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d , s o I s a i d t o h i m w e l l G e n e r a l I a m a b i t o f a p ic k l e h e r e b e c a u s e th e Page 46 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r is a d a m a n t t h a t w e s t o p t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d h e w a n t e d t o k n o w fr o m m e b u t w h y a n d I c o u l d n ’ t e x p l a i n w h y. Th e n I m a d e a s u g g e s ti o n t o h i m I s a i d , a l t h o u g h – a n d I s a id t o h i m t h e r e ’s c le a r in d i c a t io n s t h a t th e r e a r e i r r e g u l a r i t ie s a n d t h e n I s a id t h a t ’s o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d o n th e o th e r h a n d s h e is a d a m a n t th a t w e s t o p th e in v e s t i g a t io n . T h e n I m a d e a s u g g e s ti o n t o h i m t h a t w e c o n ti n u e w it h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n , t h a t – w i t h t h e s a m e in v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r s , b u t t h a t t h e y s h o u ld t h e n r e p o r t t o h i s o ffic e o s t e n s i b l y w h e r e a s I w o u ld s u r r e p ti ti o u s ly r e m a i n in v o lv e d w it h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , to w h ic h h e 10 agreed. H e th e n a p p o in t e d a B r i g a d i e r N k o s i , w h o a t th e t i m e w a s w o r k i n g a t t h e o ffic e o f S e r io u s E c o n o m i c O ff e n c e s , t o “ m o n i t o r ” t h e in v e s t i g a t io n , s o – b u t I s u s p e c t i n a n y e v e n t t h a t S o o b r a m o n e y a n d Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g h a d in a n y e v e n t c o n t in u e d w i t h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n , b e c a u s e w h e n w e g o t t o g e th e r a g a in i t w a s c l e a r t o m e t h a t t h e y h a d a c t u a ll y c o n ti n u e d w i t h i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o n o r m a l ly th e m o n i to r i n g o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n w o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e b y y o u , b u t n o w t h e r e w a s N k o s i b u t y o u s a i d h e w a s in i n v e r t e d c o m m a s , s o I a s s u m e t h a t y o u m e a n o n r e c o r d h e w a s 20 t h e o n e t o m o n i to r b e c a u s e o n r e c o r d y o u w e r e n o t g o in g to b e o ffic i a l ly o r f o r m a lly, b u t y o u w o u ld s t il l h a v e s o m e t h in g to d o w i t h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i s t h a t r i g h t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: That was the c ase C h a ir a n d t h e i d e a w i t h th a t w a s i f I h a d a n y fu r t h e r p r o b le m s w it h t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r t r y i n g to i n te r f e r e o r t o s t o p t h a t I c o u l d ju s t Page 47 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t e ll h e r lo o k i t’s n o t i n m y h a n d s , y o u h a v e t o s p e a k t o D r a m a t , a n d I k n e w s h e w o u l d n e v e r c o n fr o n t D r a m a t w i t h s o m e th in g l ik e th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u . J u s t o n e c l a r i ty o n t h e d a t e a s y o u m e n t i o n e d e a r li e r, if y o u t u r n to p a g e 1 0 , p a r a g r a p h 3 0 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t , is it c o r r e c t t h a t t h e m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d w i t h L t G e n e r a l A n w a r D r a m a t h a p p e n e d d u r in g l a t e M a y o f 2 0 1 0 ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t . As it T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. was corrected in your C h a ir i f I m a y, I u n d e r s t a n d i t ’s ti m e f o r a break? CHAIRPERSON : I t ’s ti m e f o r t h e s h o r t b r e a k , o k a y. W e w il l t a k e t h e s h o r t b r e a k a n d r e s u m e a t t w e n ty f iv e t o t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d Ms S e p t e m b e r. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. B e fo r e w e p r o c e e d w i t h t h e c o n t in u i n g e v i d e n c e o f t h is w it n e s s I n e e d t o h u m b ly 20 a p o lo g i s e t o my c o ll e a g u e s i n th e a u d ie n c e w h o h a v e n o t CHAIRPERSON : Oh yes. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l a c e d t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u o v e r l o o k e d th e m . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I h u m b l y a p o l o g is e . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s o k a y I t h i n k th e y m u s t ju s t p l a c e t h e ms e l v e s o n Page 48 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 record. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e y d id a l r e a d y m e e t w i t h m e . Th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E K AV I T H A B H E E M C H U N D : Good morning Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON : Good morning. A D V O C AT E K AV I T H A BHEEMCHUND : My name is K a v i th a B h e e mc h u n d fr o m th e D u r b a n B a r w it h d u a l m e m b e r s h ip a t t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g B a r. I r e p r e s e n t M a jo r G e n e r a l N o m f a z i N g e m b e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V O C AT E K AV I T H A B H E E M C H U N D : I n s tr u c t e d b y t h e o ff ic e s o f t h e s t a te a t to r n e y K w a z u l u N a t a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E K AV I T H A B H E E M C H U N D : M a jo r G e n e r a l N g e m b e is o n e o f t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s w h o w a s s e r v e d w i t h t h e R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E K AV I T H A B H E E M C H U N D : W e r e s e r v e o u r r ig h ts t o a p p ly to cross-examine Mr Booysen depending on the evidence presented. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E K AV I T H A B H E E M C H U N D : 20 T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : M o r n in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Morning. A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : M y n a m e i s J o h a n E k s t e e n . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : O f th e fir m B D K A t t o r n e y s . Page 49 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : W e a r e h e r e to r e p r e s e n t M a jo r General Jan Mabula. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : H e h a s a ls o r e c e iv e d a S e c ti o n 3 .3 N o t ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : A n d w e a ls o r e s e r v e t h e r i g h t f o r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o r [ in d is ti n c t ] . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. Thank you very much. A D V O C AT E J O H A N E K S T E E N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u fo r t h e i n d u lg e n c e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : General Booysen before the s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p h o n e c a l l t h a t y o u h a d w i th t h e p o l ic e c o m m i s s i o n e r o n th e 8 M a y. We are now on p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it w h e r e y o u d e s c r ib e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 a m e e ti n g 20 that you had during mid-June 2010. Please describe the events of this m e e ti n g t o th e C h a ir i n y o u r o w n w o r d s ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir I a r r iv e d a t m y o ffic e t h a t m o r n i n g j u s t a b o u t a f te r s e v e n a n d t h e n I r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m th e s e c r e t a r y o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r t o c o m e u p t o h e r o ffic e . To m e it w a s s tr a n g e i n a s e n s e t h a t s h e w a s n e v e r a t t h e o ff ic e Page 50 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h a t e a r ly. S h e w o u l d i n v a r i a b ly a r r iv e l a te a t w o r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r o u n d w h a t ti m e o f th e m o r n in g w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n more or less? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h a t w a s a b o u t quarter past seven. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : B u t i n v a r ia b ly fo r – e v e n fo r th e m a n a g e m e n t m e e t i n g s w h ic h s t a r t e d – i t w a s s u p p o s e d to h a v e s t a r t e d h a l f p a s t s e v e n w h i c h s h e c h a n g e d t o e ig h t o ’c lo c k b u t 10 s h e i n v a r i a b l y w o u l d c o m e l a te f o r e v e n th o s e m e e t in g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : T h a t p a r tic u l a r m o r n in g a b o u t q u a r t e r p a s t s e v e n I g o t th e c a ll t o c o m e t o h e r o ff ic e . I then proceeded – I was situated on the 14th floor and she was o n the 1 8 t h f lo o r. S o I p r o c e e d e d t o h e r o ffic e a n d th e n o n e n te r i n g h e r o ffi c e I f o u n d h e r th e r e a s w e l l a s M a j o r G e n e r a l B o n g a n i N t a n ja n a w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s i n t h e p r o v i n c e c o m p r is i n g s u p p ly chain management, management. 20 financial s e r v ic e s H e is n o w d e c e a s e d . and h uman resource T h e r e w a s a ls o M a jo r G e n e r a l F a n n ie M a s e m o l a . H e w a s t h e p r o v i n c i a l h e a d o f o p e r a ti o n a l r e s p o n s e d e a li n g w i t h a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s t h e d e p l o y m e n t o f p o l ic e o ffic e r s in the province. G e n e r a l M a s e m o la is c u r r e n t ly I t h i n k t h e D e p u ty N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t t h e r a n k o f L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l . Al s o s e a t e d t h e r e w a s B r i g a d i e r L a w r e n c e K e m p w h o m I r e fe r r e d to e a r l ie r o n a s t h e h e a d o f fi n a n c i a l s e r v ic e s i n t h e p r o v i n c e a s w e ll a s C o l o n e l N a v i n Page 51 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M a d h o e w h o w a s f r o m s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t . A t th e p o in t w a s o n e o f th e s u b je c t s o f th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w h o w o u ld a ll e g e d ly c o ll u d e d w i t h To s h a n P a n d a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d a t t h is m e e ti n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir i t w a s q u i te a n u n c o m f o r t a b l e m e e ti n g . G e n e r a l N g o b e n i a i m e d h e r fr u s tr a ti o n s t o w a r d s Br i g a d ie r K e m p a n d i t s o o n b e c a m e c le a r t o m e t h a t s h e h a d e i t h e r b e e n m is l e d o r th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g s e r i o u s ly w r o n g b e c a u s e 10 s h e w e n t h a m m e r a n d t o n g fo r K e m p a n d s h e a c c u s e d h i m o f b e i n g m o r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t fi n a n c e s , m o n e y t h a n t h e l iv e s o f – o f th e c i ti z e n – c i ti z e n s . A n d t h e n t h e m o r e K e m p tr i e d t o e x p l a in to h e r t h e m o r e s h e i n t e r r u p t e d h i m a n d s h e w o u l d a d m o n is h h i m a n d th e r e w a s s o m e a r g u m e n t – w e l l n o t a r g u m e n t , s o m e d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f t h e m r e l a ti n g t o s o m e r e p o r ts t h a t h e h a d s e n t t o n a t io n a l o ffi c e a n d t h a t – s h e a l m o s t o u t o f c o n tr o l a n d th e n s h e h a d a g o a t h i m fo r c o m m u n ic a ti n g d ir e c tl y w it h h e a d o ffic e w h ic h I c o u l d n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h a t i t h a d t o d o w it h w h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h . A n d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n c a r r i e d o n a n d e v e n t u a l ly s h e – I j u s t k e p t q u i e t . A n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I 20 kept… CHAIRPERSON : I a m s o r r y w h e n y o u c a m e in t o th e m e e ti n g h a d th e m e e ti n g s ta r t e d a lr e a d y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : No. CHAIRPER SON: Not yet? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o , n o C h a ir. Page 52 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : I t h a d n o t s t a r t e d b u t y o u fo u n d t h a t a ll o f t h o s e p e o p l e y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d w e r e a lr e a d y t h e r e [i n d i s t i n c t ]? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e f o r e t h e m e e t i n g s t a r t e d o r w h e n th e m e e ti n g s t a r t e d w a s i t a n n o u n c e d w h a t t h e m e e t in g w a s a b o u t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t a t a ll C h a i r I d i d n o t h a v e a – I d id n o t e v e n h a v e a n id e a w h a t w a s g o i n g t o h a p p e n w h e n I – w h e n s h e c a l le d m e . I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t s h e w a s c a ll i n g m e f o r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u – y o u d id n o t k n o w a b o u t t h is m e e ti n g u n t il y o u w e r e – y o u g o t a p h o n e c a ll f r o m h e r – s o m e b o d y in h e r o ffic e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e fi r s t t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d w a s s h e s ta r t e d s p e a k i n g a n d s h e e ffe c t iv e l y w a s s p e a k i n g to B r i g a d i e r K e m p ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : She was speaking to K e m p b u t I g o t t h e f e e li n g s h e w a s t a lk i n g t o m e a s w e l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B u t n o t d i r e c t i n g it a t 20 me. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t n o th a t i s f i n e . C o n ti n u e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Chair the main reason I d i d n o t w a n t t o s a y a n y t h i n g w a s t h e m e r e f a c t th a t o n e o f th e m a in s u s p e c ts in t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n C o lo n e l N a v i n M a d h o e w a s p a r t o f th e – o f t h e m e e t in g s o I ju s t k e p t q u i e t . T h e n s h e a t o n e s ta g e s a i d t o m e Page 53 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 J o h a n w h a t d o y o u s a y ? S o I s a i d t o h e r, G e n e r a l I f e e l u n c o m f o r t a b l e t a lk in g – I w il l t a lk to y o u l a t e r. A n d I d o n o t k n o w i f s h e s e n s e d w h y I f e l t u n c o m f o r t a b le b u t s h e th e n e x c u s e d K e m p a n d s h e e x c u s e d Colonel Madhoe. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t l e t u s – le t u s – i f y o u a r e a b le t o l e t u s g e t m o r e in t e r m s o f w h a t s h e s a i d a t t h a t m e e t in g a s fa r a s y o u a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r – w h a t w e r e – y o u h a v e s a id t h a t s h e if I c a n p u t i t i n m y w o r d s . I t s e e m s t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g s h e r e a l ly w a s a tt a c k i n g K e m p o r s h e w a s u p s e t w i t h h i m b u t I w o u l d l ik e t o h e a r e x a c t ly w h a t s h e w a s 10 s a y in g if y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JO HAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : W h a t I r e c a ll C h a ir w a s t h a t s h e – a n d t h a t is w h y I fe l t s h e h a d e i th e r b e e n m is le d b y s o m e o n e o r e ls e s h e k n e w w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d t r i e d t o m a k e t h is t h i n g o ff a s if w e – w e ll s h e w a s t a lk i n g t o K e m p b u t b y i m p l ic a ti o n to m y s e l f a s w e ll t h a t w e w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t fi n a n c e s a s s u p p o s e d – a s s u p p o s e d to th a t w e s h o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th e l iv e s o f c i ti z e n s . A n d I – i t d id n o t r e a l ly m a k e s e n s e t o m e a n d th a t is w h y I d i d n o t s a y a n y th in g . A n d th e n … CHAIRPERSON : But – 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Th e r e was a d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n h e r a n d K e m p a b o u t a r e p o r t th a t h e h a d s e n t t o n a t io n a l h e a d o ffic e . I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h a t p a r t ic u l a r r e p o r t d id n o t h a v e a n y th in g t o d o w i th o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h it h a d … MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : No. Page 54 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d t h e d is c u s s i o n h a d n o th i n g t o d o w i th t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n th a t y o u to ld u s a b o u t ? W h a t s h e w a s s a y in g a t th e m e e ti n g t o K e m p ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . CHAIRPERSON : D i d n o t c o n c e r n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t y o u t o ld u s a b o u t? T h e s u p p l y c h a in m a n a g e m e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o i t d i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : It did? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Ja I think she – I do 10 n o t k n o w w h e t h e r s h e c o n fl a t e d t w o is s u e s i n t e n t io n a l ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WES SEL BOO YSEN : Or whether – but that w h o le m e e ti n g w a s – m a d e n o s e n s e to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : B u t it w a s e v i d e n t t o m e t h a t i t r e l a t e d t o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Because we… C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y s h e w a s u p s e t? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : She was visibly upset. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: When she excused K e m p a n d M a d h o e I s a i d t o h e r, G e n e r a l I d o n o t t h i n k y o u u n d e r s ta n d what is going on here. We are not concerned about the deployment of p o li c e o ff ic e r s b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t w a s b e i n g c r e a te d Page 55 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h a t w e a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t p a y i n g f o r t h e d e p lo y m e n t o f p o l ic e o ffic e r s . I s a i d t o h e r w e a r e n o t c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e a c tu a l d e p lo y m e n t o f t h e s e p o l ic e o ff ic e r s w h a t w e a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t is w h a t c o n c e r n s u s a s i n v e s t ig a t o r s i t w o u ld a p p e a r t h a t a l l th e a c q u is i ti o n s o f – o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d o t h e r i s s u e s a s w e l l w e r e g o in g t h r o u g h t h e b o o k s o f o n e b u s i n e s s m a n I n U m h l a n g a R o c k s . A n d I s a id t o h e r i t is c le a r t h a t t h e r e is = t h e r e is s o m e t h in g a m is s h e r e . Her response to that was once again… CHAIRPERSON : So at this time yo u – you decided or you had already 10 d e c i d e d th a t i f a n o c c a s io n a r o s e y o u w o u l d – y o u w o u l d i n d ic a te y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t – y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e s e ir r e g u l a r i t ie s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : A n d t h a t is w h a t I tr i e d to e x p l a i n t o h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : Now I – I do not know w h e t h e r s h e tr i e d t o p r e t e n d t h a t s h e d i d n o t k n o w w h a t w a s g o i n g o n o r w h e t h e r s h e – w e ll t h a t w a s – t h o s e w e r e m y t h o u g h ts a t t h e t i m e 20 w h e t h e r s h e h a d b e e n m is l e d o r w h e t h e r s h e d i d n o t r e a l ly g r a s p w h a t w a s g o in g o n . T h a t is w h y I e x p la in e d to h e r. W e a r e n o t c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e a c t u a l d e p l o y m e n t w h a t w e a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t is t h e a c q u is i ti o n o f th e a c c o m m o d a t io n f o r th e d e p lo y m e n t . Because it all s e e m e d to g o th r o u g h t h e b o o k s o f To s h a n P a n d a y. H e r r e s p o n s e w a s o n c e a g a i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n m u s t s t o p a n d t h e n s h e s a i d to G e n e r a l Page 56 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 B o n g a n i N ta n j a n a w h o i s n o w d e c e a s e d t h a t h e s h o u l d c o m m e n c e w i t h a n in v e s ti g a t i o n . N o w i t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e . CHAIRPERSON : S a m e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? S a m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u o r y o u r p e o p le , y o u r t e a m , p e o p le u n d e r y o u w e r e b u s y w i th a n d n o w a c t u a ll y w e r e u n d e r G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s w e l l? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 10 B u t a t t h a t s t a g e s h e d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t D r a m a t’s a r r a n g e m e n t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : No. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t – ja o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : S o C h a ir s o s h e t o l d N ta n j a n a th a t h e s h o u l d t a k e o v e r t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n . I t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e to m e b e c a u s e G e n e r a l N ta n ja n a h a d n o t b e e n a d e t e c tiv e f o r many years number 1. N u m b e r 2 is h e d i d n o t h a v e th e c a p a c i t y t o d e a l w i t h s u c h a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n . H e d i d n o t h a v e t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s to d e a l w i t h s u c h a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n . As i t w o u l d t u r n o u t l a t e r w e h a d t o e m p l o y fo r e n s ic a u d i t o r s . S o a n d i n my m i n d i t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e t o 20 m e t h a t h e s h o u l d d o th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : But did it make sense to you that on the one hand at t h e s a m e m e e t i n g a n d b e fo r e s h e h a d s a i d a n d w a s s a y i n g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n m u s t s t o p b u t t h e n n o w s h e w a s s a y i n g th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n m u s t b e d o n e b y s o m e b o d y o t h e r t h a n t h e p e o p l e w h o h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d o n t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? Page 57 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : C h a ir I – to m e a n d m y v i e w th a t w a s a r u s e . I t w a s a r u s e t o tr y a n d p a c i fy m e to i n d ic a t e w e ll t h e r e w i ll b e a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o s w e e p t h i s u n d e r the carpet. T h a t is m y v i e w a n d it w a s a c t u a ll y m y s u s p ic i o n s w e r e c o n fir m e d l a t e r o n w h ic h I w o u l d a l lu d e t o l a t e r o n i n m y a ffi d a v it . S o r r y C h a i r a n d th e n s h e g a v e – s h e s a i d t o N t a n j a n a h e m u s t c o n c l u d e h is in v e s ti g a t i o n w i t h i n tw o w e e k s . CHAIRPERSON : O h d i d y o u th a t s tr i k e y o u a s – a s a k i n d o f n o r m a l ti m e w i t h in w h ic h to s t a r t a n d f i n is h a n in v e s t ig a ti o n li k e o r th e r e w a s 10 n o t h i n g w r o n g w i th t h a t ti m e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h e r e is n o w a y s t h a t e v e n m y s e l f w i th th e r e s o u r c e s a t my d i s p o s a l a t t h e ti m e a n u m b e r o f i n v e s ti g a to r s w h o s e s o l e f u n c ti o n is t o d o i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . Whereas Ntanjana had none of those resources. ju s t i m p o s s i b l e to conclude or f i n a li s e an Th e r e is j u s t – i t i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n of that m a g n i t u d e i n s u c h a s h o r t p e r i o d o f a ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o fo ll o w i n g t h a t m e e t in g … CHAIRPERSON : 20 Okay maybe before we talk about what happened a ft e r. Wa s – d i d t h e m e e t in g e n d o n th e b a s i s t h a t N t a n j a n a w a s g o i n g t o d o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e b a s is o n w h ic h i t e n d e d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . Page 58 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : F o l lo w in g th a t m e e ti n g w e r e y o u p r o v id e d w i t h a n y f o r m o f a n i n v e s t ig a tiv e r e p o r t fr o m o n e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s in t h e To s h a n P a n d a y in v e s t i g a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN : C h a ir a b o u t tw o w e e k s l a t e r C o l o n e l Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y t h e n p r o v i d e d m e w i th a f o ll o w - u p r e p o r t w h ic h is m u c h m o r e d e t a il e d th a n t h e in i ti a l r e p o r t th a t I h a d r e c e iv e d f r o m K e m p . A n d fr o m a r e a d i n g o f t h a t r e p o r t i t w a s – i t w a s v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h e r e w e r e ir r e g u la r i ti e s a n d I w o u l d g o a s f a r a s t o s a y t h a t th o s e i r r e g u l a r i ti e s r e l a te d to p o s s ib l e c o r r u p t io n a n d e v e n 10 fr a u d a n d p e r h a p s o th e r c r i m e s a s w e l l . S o h e p r o v i d e d m e w i th – w i th t h is r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s a b o u t h o w lo n g a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g - th e o th e r m e e ti n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir i t w a s a b o u t t w o w e e k s l a te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i l e y o u d o r e f e r t o th is p a r t ic u l a r r e p o r t m u c h l a te r i n y o u r e v i d e n c e I t h i n k it is p r u d e n t t o c o n s i d e r th e r e p o r t a t th is s t a g e . S o i n th is r e g a r d I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o 20 E x h i b i t Z E w h i c h i s a s o f t b lu e f o l d e r. A n d i n p a r ti c u l a r I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 2 o f th a t a ffi d a v i t . In p a r a g r a p h 5 o n p a g e 2 o f t h is a ffi d a v i t y o u m e n t io n e d t h a t t h e p r o g r e s s r e p o r t w h i c h w a s a t t a c h e d t o y o u r m a in a ffi d a v it w a s n o t i n fa c t t h e a c t u a l r e p o r t t h a t y o u h a d in t e n d e d t o a t t a c h a n d s o w i th th is a ff id a v i t y o u a t t a c h t h e a c tu a l r e p o r t w h ic h is t h e r e p o r t t h a t y o u n o w s p e a k o f i n y o u r e v i d e n c e a s t h e Page 59 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 R e p o r t o f C o l o n e l Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : T h is is t h e r e p o r t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I th e n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o page 5 of the same bundle, soft bundle and because of the importance o f t h i s r e p o r t t o t h e e n tir e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e e v id e n c e t h a t is y e t t o b e p r e s e n t e d I a s k y o u to r e a d t h r o u g h c e r t a in p a r a g r a p h s i n to th e record. C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d th r o u g h t h e s e c o n d , t h i r d a n d f o u r t h p a r a g r a p h s p l e a s e ? A n d b e f o r e y o u d o s o f o r t h e r e c o r d t h i s p a r tic u la r 10 r e p o r t i s ti t le d Pr e l i m in a r y R e p o r t o f I n v e s t ig a ti o n s C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e Inquiry 07/05/2010. CHAIRPERSON : A n d it a p p e a r s o r it s t a r ts a t p a g e 5 o f E x h i b i t Z E . Okay thank you. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir I j u s t w a n t t o c o n fir m t h e r e a r e t h r e e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t a r e n o t n u m b e r e d a n d t h e n t h e r e a r e o n e s e t a r e n u m e r ic a l ly n u m b e r e d . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Should I read 1? 20 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : So if I could ask you to read o u t th e u n n u m b e r e d p a r a g r a p h 2 , 3 a n d 4 w h ic h h a s t h e s u b paragraphs in them. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Paragraph 2. “ I t i s a ll e g e d th a t s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t fr o m P H Q w h ic h w il l b e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d Q u a r t e r s K w a z u l u N a ta l Page 60 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 h a s fr o m O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 to d a te u ti li s e d t h e s e r v ic e s o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g C C a n d s e t t le d c l a i m s in e x c e s s o f R 1 5 mi ll i o n . O n t h e l i tt l e i n f o r m a ti o n g i v e n b y B r i g a d ie r L a t e g a n w e w e r e r e q u ir e d to d e t e r m i n e a li n k b e t w e e n To s h a n P a n d a y a n d m e m b e r s o f s u p p l y chain management fr o m p r o v i n c ia l headquarters. H o w e v e r o n Th u r s d a y th e 6 M a y 2 0 1 0 w e w e r e in s t r u c t e d by Brigadier L a te g a n to return th e in v e s t i g a t io n fi l e t o p r o v in c i a l h e a d q u a r t e r s a f te r h e 10 h a d r e c e iv e d in s tr u c ti o n s t o h a l t t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n s . Thus fa r our i n v e s ti g a ti o n s have revealed th e f o ll o w i n g : T h e r e a r e th r e e t a r g e t s id e n ti fi e d a n d w h a t a p p e a r s to b e c a s e – w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e th e r e is a g r a m m a t ic a l e r r o r s o r r y C h a ir. A p p e a r s t o b e c a s e o f fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n n a m e ly To s h a n P a n d a y t h e D ir e c t o r s o f Gold Coast a tt a c h e d to headquarters 20 Tr a d i n g CC, s u p p ly chain and Captain Colonel N a v in management A Madhoe p r o v in c i a l Narainpesad a ls o a tt a c h e d t o s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t a t p r o v i n c i a l headquarters. To s h a n P a n d a y i s a l s o t h e d ir e c to r o f e i g h t o t h e r C C ’s r e g is t e r e d i n th e n a m e – i n h is n a m e . I n t w o o f t h e C C ’s h e h a s a p a r tn e r. Fr o m O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 t o d a t e s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t fr o m p r o v i n c ia l h e a d q u a r t e r s h a v e p a i d G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g i n e x c e s s Page 61 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o f R 1 5 m il li o n fo r s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d . O f t h e s e c l a i ms 9 9 % o n r e s p e c t o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n o b t a i n e d f o r S A P S m e m b e r s w h il s t tw o c l a i m s a r e f o r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f b l a n k e t s , o n e c l a i m f o r tw o S o n y B r a v ia 4 0 i n c h t e l e v i s i o n s , o n e c la i m f o r f li p c h a r t s ta n d s a n d o n e c la i m f o r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f a g e n e r a t o r. I t h a s a ls o b e e n e s t a b li s h e d t h a t s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t h a d m a d e u s e o f U n it e d M z a n z i Tr a d in g a n d P r o j e c t C C a c lo s e c o r p o r a ti o n o w n e d b y To s h a n P a n d a y t o h ir e 1 3 10 C Class Mercedes Benz during February 2010 at a c o s t o f R 1 9 8 0 0 0 , 0 0 .” A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . P a r a g r a p h 5 a t th e b o t t o m o f t h i s p a g e r e f e r s to a p a r t ic u l a r b e d a n d b r e a k f a s t , c a n y o u p l e a s e i d e n t i fy t h e n a m e a n d l o c a ti o n o f t h is b e d a n d b r e a k fa s t ? I t is in t h e a c t u a l h e a d i n g . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t is c a l l e d To z e r s B e d a n d B r e a k f a s t a t B e r g v il l e K w a Z u l u N a t a l C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n w h a t fo ll o w s o n th e n e x t p a g e i f y o u c o u ld s ta r t r e a d i n g fr o m t h e s e c o n d li n e w h ic h b e g i n s 20 w i t h th e fi r s t c la i m t o g iv e p a r tic u l a r i ty t o t h e n a tu r e s o f t h e c l a i m s t h a t w e r e lo d g e d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : “ T h e fi r s t c l a i m w a s fr o m 2 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9 t o 6 January 2009. Th e c la i m s s u b m i t te d a n d s e tt l e d b y S A P w a s f o r R 11 3 4 0 0 , 0 0 . H o w e v e r th e a c t u a l c o s t Page 62 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o f t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a t To z e r s B e d a n d B r e a k f a s t w a s R 2 9 4 0 0 ,0 0 . T h e s e c o n d c la i m fr o m 6 J a n u a r y 2010 to 22 January 2010 [6 nights for 6 m embers] for R 1 7 2 8 0 0 ,0 0 w a s s e t tl e d b y t h e S A P. O b v io u s ly th e p o li c e . T h e a c t u a l c o s t o f t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a t To z e r s B e d a n d Br e a k fa s t w a s o n ly R 3 3 6 0 0 , 0 0 . H o w e v e r w i th r e g a r d t o t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f t h e c la i m To s h a n Panday made use of To z e r s Bed and B r e a k f a s t t o a c c o m m o d a te t h e m e m b e r s a n d n o 10 f u r th e r m e m b e r s a r r iv e d a s a n a d d i ti o n t o t h e m a n – p r o b a b ly th e m a i n p o w e r r e q u e s t e d fo r th e d e t a c h e d d u t ie s . However in the second part of the claim he s u b m i ts t h a t t w o l a te c o m e r s w e r e a c c o m m o d a t e d a t a c o s t o f R 4 3 2 0 0 ,0 0 . Th is a m o u n t is i n c l u d e d i n t h e R 1 7 2 8 0 0 ,0 0 s e t tl e d b y t h e S A P. O u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s r e v e a l e d th a t o n ly s ix m e m b e r s w e r e d e p l o y e d a t E s k o r t fo r th e r e q u ir e d d u ti e s . I t w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t t h is c l a i m is f a ls e .” A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 20 To g iv e c r e d e n c e t o t h a t s u m m a r y y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d I a s k t h e n t h a t y o u d e a l w it h r e a d i n g paragraph 6 and 7 please. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O f t h e s a m e r e p o r t? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O f t h e s a m e r e p o r t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Paragraph 6. “ I n r e s p e c t o f t h e a b o v e d e p lo y m e n t o f s i x m e m b e r s Page 63 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t o E s k o r t th e t o t a l c o s t th a t t h e p o l ic e w o u ld h a v e in c u r r e d h a d t h e y m a d e b o o k i n g s d ir e c t ly a t To z e r s B & B w o u ld h a v e c o s t R 6 3 0 0 0 , 0 0 . A n d t h e n i t s a y s in b r a c k e ts [ R 2 9 4 0 0 , 0 0 p l u s R 3 3 6 0 0 . 0 0 ]. H o w e v e r b y m a k in g u s e o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g C C t h e S A P h a d t o fo r k o u t R 2 8 6 2 0 0 , 0 0 a n d t h e n i n b r a c k e ts [ b r e a k d o w n o f R 11 3 4 0 0 , 0 0 p l u s R 1 7 2 8 0 0 . 0 0 ] . A n over expenditure of R223 200,00. A statement has b e e n o b ta i n e d fr o m t h e o w n e r o f To z e r s B e d a n d 10 Breakfast who submitted that he had charged R 3 5 0 ,0 0 p e r p e r s o n p e r n i g h t . H o w e v e r G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g C C h a d b il l e d t h e S A P R 1 3 5 0 , 0 0 p e r p e r s o n p e r n i g h t f o r e i g h t m e m b e r s a n d n o t f o r s ix a s s u b m i tt e d b y M s To z e r.” Then paragraph 7: “ A s e c o n d c l a i m w a s s u b m it t e d a n d s e t tl e d fo r R 11 9 8 8 0 , 0 0 accommodated for s ix at members Pinetown. that According were to the a p p lic a ti o n f o r a c c o m m o d a ti o n fr o m C a p t a i n N a r a i n 20 P r a s a d a c c o m m o d a ti o n w a s r e q u ir e d f o r s i x m e m b e r s b e i n g tr a i n e r s fr o m Pr e t o r i a f o r t h e tr a in in g o f N I U m e m b e r s . N I U t h a t m e a n s t h e N a ti o n a l I n te r v e n ti o n Unit members at C h a ts w o r t h C o ll e g e fr o m 21 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 t o 1 4 M a r c h 2 0 1 0 . O u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s have revealed th a t th e tr a i n e r s Page 64 of 212 were not fr o m 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 P r e t o r i a b u t fr o m K Z N . O n e t r a i n e r s t a y e d a t h is h o u s e a n d tr a v e ll e d d a il y t o t h e c o u r s e a s h e li v e d n e a r b y. Th e c o u r s e o r g a n is e r C o lo n e l A l li e fr o m t h e D i v is io n a l C o m m is s i o n s Tr a i n i n g a t P r e to r i a w a s c o n ta c t e d a n d h e s u b m i t te d th a t a ll tr a i n e r s a n d tr a i n e e s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e a b o v e m e n t i o n e d t r a i n i n g w e r e t o b e a c c o m m o d a t e d a t t h e C h a ts w o r t h Tr a in i n g 10 C o ll e g e . N o f in a n c ia l a u th o r i ty w a s g r a n t e d f o r a n y member or trainer to be housed in private a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d a n a ll o w a n c e o f R 5 0 , 0 0 p e r d a y w a s h o w e v e r a u t h o r i s e d . C o l o n e l A ll i e in f o r m e d t h a t n o tr a i n e r fr o m P r e t o r i a tr a v e l le d t o C h a ts w o r th C o ll e g e fo r th e t r a in i n g o f t h e N I U m e m b e r s . It w o u ld a p p e a r th a t t h e e x p e n s e s m e t f o r t h e – m e t – p r o b a b ly m e a n t f o r t h e p a y m e n t o f th is c la i m w a s u til is e d from KZN Provincial budget. Fr o m my in v e s t i g a t io n s i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e tr a i n e r s w e r e accommodated despite at Ms Getz B&B b e in g in s t r u c t e d to s ta y a t C h a t s w o r t h C o ll e g e . T h e a c t u a l 20 c o s t o f th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n p a i d b y G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g C C w a s R 3 0 4 9 2 ,0 0 b u t t h e S A P w a s b il le d R 11 9 8 0 0 , 0 0 .” C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I g u e s s y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to r e q u ir e a s k in g h i m t o r e a d t h e w h o l e r e p o r t? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a ir. Page 65 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n j u s t t a l k t o i m p o r ta n t fe a tu r e s o r w h a t h e is a b l e t o m a k e o u t o f t h e r e p o r t? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f – a s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir. T h e r e is j u s t tw o m o r e p a r a g r a p h s i f I m a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e s ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a r a g r a p h 1 3 w h ic h i s o n p a g e 8. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a n d w h ic h o n e ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d p a r a g r a p h 1 6 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h o s e a r e s h o r t e r. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a r a g r a p h 1 6 a n d 1 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s f in e . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d 1 7 a n d t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e on paragraph 17. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e t h e y a r e s h o r t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : In paragraph 13. “ O u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s h a s a l s o r e v e a l e d t h a t G o ld C o a s t Tr a d in g C C h a s s u b m i t te d a t e n d e r o f R 5 5 m il li o n fo r a c c o m m o d a t i o n f o r S A P m e m b e r s f o r th e d u r a t io n o f th e 2 0 1 0 W o r l d C u p . 20 This tender needs u r g e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n . ” A n d w h ic h is t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a r a g r a p h 1 6 , 1 6 o n t h e s a m e page. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Paragraph 16. Page 66 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 “ T h e i n v o ic e s s u b m i t te d b y G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g C C d o n o t h a v e a VAT n u m b e r a n d c o u ld p o s s ib ly n o t b e r e g is t e r e d f o r VAT. T h i s m a t te r h a s t o b e r e p o r t e d to S A R S f o r i n v e s ti g a t i o n a s w e ll .” A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n th e f i r s t s e n te n c e o n paragraph 17. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : “ O u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n a ls o r e v e a l e d t h a t – t h a t G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g is n o t r e g is t e r e d a s a n a g e n t to 10 p r o v i d e a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r [ th e g r a m m a r i s n o t s o ] f o r c o - o p e r a te s t h u s q u a l i fy i n g fo r a c o m m i s s i o n . ” A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d in c o n c lu s i o n o n p a g e 9 t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s is n o t e d i n t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h . Can I ask you to just read that last paragraph please? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h ic h s t a r ts w i t h i t i s o u r s u b m is s i o n ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : “ I t i s o u r s u b m is s i o n t h a t w e w o u l d b e a b l e t o p r o v e 20 fr a u d a n d o r c o r r u p t io n i n t h i s m a t t e r. We require u n h in d e r e d i n v e s t ig a t io n i n t h is m a tt e r a n d t h e c a ll u p i n s tr u c ti o n s fo r a ll d e ta c h e d d u ti e s i n c lu d in g t h e w r i t t e n r e q u e s t f o r th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d o th e r it e m s m e n ti o n e d a b o v e t h a t w a s s o u r c e d b y G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g C C . ” Page 67 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . Is i t th u s c o r r e c t t o ju s t s u m m a r is e w h a t y o u h a v e r e a d . T h a t M r To s h a n P a n d a y w a s th e d ir e c t o r o f th e c l a i m a n t fo r a l l o f t h e s e c l a i m s f o r G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g CC? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : From reading the r e p o r t C h a ir th a t is m y i n t e r p r e t a ti o n . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t t h e r e w e r e e s s e n ti a lly t h e f o ll o w i n g p e o p le w h o w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r tr a n s a c ti o n s s u c h b e i n g Mr To s h a n P a n d a y ? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o lo n e l N M a d h o e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N a v in M a d h o e th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d C a p ta i n A N a r a in p e r s a d if I… M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t i t w a s Aswin Narainpersad. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : c o r r e c t ly. 20 I f I h a v e p r o n o u n c e d th a t Is i t t h e n a l s o e v i d e n t fr o m t h is r e p o r t t h a t t h e i s s u e s r e l a ti n g t o th e c la i m c o n c e r n e d f a ls e c l a i m s s u b mi t t e d t o th e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is it a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a n in f la t io n o f c o s t s f o r t h e c l a i m s t h a t w e r e s u b m i tt e d t o t h e S o u th Page 68 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e s f o r p a y m e n t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BO OYSEN : I w o u ld g o f u r th e r t h a n th a t C h a i r t h e y w e r e d r a s ti c i n fl a – t h o s e p r ic e s w e r e d r a s t i c a lly in fl a t e d . CHAIRPERSON : S o h a v i n g r e a d th e r e p o r t a t t h a t t i m e w h e n y o u g o t it , it w a s c l e a r t o y o u th a t t h e p e r s o n s w h o h a d c o m p il e d i t w e r e m a k i n g s o m e p r o g r e s s i n t h e ir in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e g e t ti n g t o k n o w t h a t t h e r e i n d e e d a p p e a r e d t o h a v e b e e n c e r t a i n c r i m e s th a t h a d b e e n c o m m i t t e d a n d t h e y s a y a t t h e e n d o f th e ir r e p o r t t h e y w e r e c o n f i d e n t 10 t h a t i f th e y w e r e g i v e n ti m e t o in v e s ti g a t e m o r e a n d t h e ir i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s u n h in d e r e d th e y w e r e c o n f id e n t t h a t t h e y c o u l d p r o v e c e r t a in c r i m e s in c l u d i n g fr a u d a n d m a y b e c o r r u p ti o n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . I f I c a n t h e n a s k y o u to q u ic k ly t u r n t o A n n e x u r e J W B 1 w h ic h i s i n y o u r – in f il e Z A a n d th a t i s at page 7 [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON : What page of EXHIBIT Z A? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : 72. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : 7 2 , o k a y. Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th is w a s i n f a c t a f o ll o w u p r e p o r t t h a t w a s d o n e p u r s u a n t to th e fir s t r e p o r t t h a t w a s ju s t r e fe r r e d t o n o w ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : [ I n te r v e n e s ] . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O r e a r l ie r, s o r r y. Page 69 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , b u t b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e h a v in g r e a d th e r e p o r t t h a t y o u – p a r ts o f w h ic h y o u r e a d a f e w m i n u t e s a g o d id y o u d o a n y th in g a b o u t , a b o u t t h e r e p o r t o r t h e r e q u e s t m a d e b y th o s e w h o p r e p a r e d t h e r e p o r t to s a y w e w o u ld l ik e t o h a v e a n u n h i n d e r e d in v e s t i g a t io n t o ta k e t h is f o r w a r d ? Is th e r e a n y t h i n g y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o a b o u t – is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u d i d a r i s in g fr o m b e in g a w a r e o f t h e report? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 C h a ir th e f ir s t r e p o r t t h a t I h a v e j u s t r e a d o u t fr o m . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t w a s s u b m i tt e d t o m e b y S o o b r a m o n e y t w o - a b o u t t w o w e e k s a ft e r I w a s t o l d to s t o p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h e f a c t th a t h e h a d g iv e n m e t h e r e p o r t i m p u t e s t h a t w e w e r e s ti ll o n th e s a m e s c o r e t h a t t h a t I w a s s t il l s u p e r v is in g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a lb e it s u r r e p ti t io u s ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w a s i t t w o w e e k s a ft e r th e f ir s t c a ll fr o m t h e 20 P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r w h e n y o u w e r e o n t h e r o a d o r w a s i t t w o w e e k s a f t e r th e m e e t i n g , t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u t a lk e d a b o u t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: It was two weeks, two w e e k s a f t e r th e m e e t i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 70 of 212 Where she – where 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 K e m p a n d c o m p a n y w e r e p r e s e n t a n d s h e t o l d N t a n ja n a t o i n v e s t ig a t e . So. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th is r e p o r t c a m e t w o w e e k s a f t e r th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u h a v e b e e n g iv e n t h is r e p o r t . I t c a n b e s a i d t o h a v e b e e n p a r t o f p u r s u in g t h e a r r a n g e m e n t th a t w a s m a d e w i t h G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o s a y t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s h o u ld c o n ti n u e a n d w h a t r o l e y o u w o u l d p l a y a n d s o o n . Th a t w a s p a r t o f th a t? 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I th i n k A d v o c a t e S e p t e m b e r h a d a ll u d e d t o i t e a r l i e r o n th a t w h ils t I w a s p r e p a r in g th e s ta t e m e n t o f m in e th a t I w a s w r i ti n g i t fr o m m y r e c o l l e c ti o n o f w h a t o c c u r r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d s o m e ti m e s t h i n g s a r e n o t p e r f e c tl y i n s e q u e n c e h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So I – if my memory s e r v e s m e c o r r e c tly I o n ly s p o k e t o D r a m a t a b i t la t e r. I f m y m e m o r y 20 s e r v e s m e c o r r e c tly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y. J a , I r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r a g r a p h w a s in a w r o n g , w r o n g p l a c e . A lr ig h t . J a , it w a s n o t in t h e r i g h t p l a c e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t in u e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u l d p e r h a p s a s s is t . Page 71 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Due to the change of date which was r e c t if i e d th r o u g h a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t th e d a t e b e i n g c h a n g e d f r o m M a y 2 0 11 to 2 0 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t s h i f te d i n s e q u e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: B u t i t w a s d u r in g l a te M a y 2 0 1 0 a s t h e G e n e r a l h a d g iv e n e v id e n c e t h a t h e m e t w i th D r a m a t i n Pr e t o r i a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: J u s t a s a n u p d a te t h e n i n te r ms o f w h a t th is p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s t a t e d w h ic h a ls o is n e c e s s a r y f o r t h e e v i d e n c e to f o ll o w. C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 7 5 o f th a t p a r tic u la r bundle? CHAIRPERSON : T h is is a v e r y p o o r c o p y. I f i t a ll p o s s ib l e m a y b e a r r a n g e m e n ts c o u l d b e to g e t a b e t t e r c o p y b u t i f a t te m p t s h a v e b e e n m a d e a n d t h i s is t h e b e s t w e – t h a t c a n b e o b t a i n e d t h a t is o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir. My copy is s i m il a r. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I would certainly request th e in v e s t i g a t o r s t o a s s i s t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In o b ta in i n g p o s s i b le . Page 72 of 212 a clear report if 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir if I could p e r h a p s j u s t a s s is t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e s e r e p o r ts – a n d I w i ll p e r h a p s s p e a k t o th is l a t e r o n i n m y e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts a n d s t a te m e n ts h a d g o n e m is s i n g fr o m t h e d o c k e ts . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And a number of these r e p o r t s I h a d t o a c q u ir e fr o m th e i n v e s t i g a t o r s . S o m e o f th e m w h o s u b s e q u e n t ly r e q u ir e d a n u m b e r o f t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t a r e a t t a c h e d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W e r e d o c u m e n t s th a t I d u p lic a t e d a t t h e t i m e w h ic h I k e p t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n a s a f e l o c a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o t h e o n l y w a y th a t w e w i ll b e a b l e to g e t. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th is m i g h t b e t h e b e s t th a t w e c a n h a v e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : U n l e s s t h e y g o t o th e p r o s e c u t o r w h o is c u r r e n t ly s e i z e d w i t h t h i s m a t t e r i n K Z N a n d a s k h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 73 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : But I understand even fr o m h e r t h a t v a r io u s d o c u m e n ts a n d r e p o r ts h a v e g o n e m i s s i n g fr o m t h e - t h o s e d o c k e ts . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , o k a y. I t m a y b e t h a t i n th e e n d o n e c a n r e a d e v e r y t h i n g th a t is in i t w h ic h is t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t t h i n g . O k a y. T h a t is fi n e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : If I can then ask you at paragraph 13 t o j u s t r e a d t h e fir s t s e n te n c e o f t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Paragraph 13. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S e p te m b e r I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u r v o i c e h a s b e c o m e s o f t e r th a n e a r li e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : I apologise. CHAIRPERSON : I d o n o t k n o w i f th e p e o p l e a t th e b a c k h e a r b u t m a y b e y o u c a n tr y a n d r a i s e it . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: G e n e r a l B o o y s e n if I c a n a s k y o u t o r e a d t h e f ir s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 3 a t p a g e 7 5 i n to t h e r e c o r d please? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Paragraph 13. “ I t h a s a l s o b e e n e s ta b l is h e d t h a t th e t a r g e t a t P r o v i n c ia l H e a d q u a r t e r s h a s t h e a u t h o r i t y to s ig n o ff a c q u i s i ti o n s t o t h e m a x i m u m o f R 2 0 0 0 0 0 .” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And who would this target be as r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e r e p o r t? Page 74 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t could be C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I f I c o u l d t h e n a s k y o u to r e a d f r o m t h e s e c o n d s e n te n c e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 p l e a s e t o t h e e n d o f th a t paragraph? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: P a r a g r a p h 1 4 , th e t h ir d s e n t e n c e . “ T h e t a r g e t a t P r o v i n c i a l H e a d q u a r t e r s m a n i p u l a te d t h e s y s te m b y e n s u r i n g t h a t th e c l a i ms w e r e s p li t a s 10 n o t to e x c e e d t h e R 2 0 0 0 0 0 l i m i t. In a c t u a l fa c t G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g C C s u b m i t t e d a w e e k l y c l a i m f o r lo n g d e t a c h e d d u ti e s . A s c h e d u l e o f p a y m e n ts i s a v a i la b le t o p r o v e th is t h e o r y.” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And then paragraphs 15 and 16. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Paragraph 15: “Nedbank contacted me to inform me that the D ir e c t o r o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g C C h a s i n fo r m e d t h e m t h a t i n q u ir i e s h a d b e e n m a d e i n t o h is a c c o u n t . H e s p e c i fi c a lly m e n t io n e d t h e p u r c h a s e o f h is n e w 20 F e r r a r i w h e r e h e p a i d R 5 1 0 0 0 0 d e p o s i t. The in f o r m a ti o n w a s o n ly g iv e n t o t w o s e n i o r o ffic e r s fr o m P r o v i n c ia l H e a d q u a r t e r s a n d in c l u d e d i n t h e reports According submitted to to Major General Booysen. M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n he had s u b m i tt e d th e r e p o r t t o t h e P C a n d h e h a s n o t h e a r d Page 75 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a n y th in g fr o m h e r w i th r e g a r d s t o r e t u r n i n g t h e o r i g in a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n f il e th a t w a s t a k e n fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t io n te a m . ” A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t t e a m l a s t s e n t e n c e r e f e r s to t h e e n g a g e m e n t t h a t y o u h a d t h e n w i t h t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r to w h ic h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n e v id e n c e a t w h i c h y o u p r o v i d e d h e r a n d N ta n j a n a w it h a c o p y o f th e r e p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Have we gone – have w e a c t u a ll y d is c u s s e d th a t m e e ti n g ? 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Yo u – t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u g a v e is t h a t y o u g a v e a c o p y o f t h i s r e p o r t t o t w o p e o p l e s u c h b e i n g o n e th e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r a n d t w o b e in g N t a n j a n a . O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I a m n o t s o sure. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I am not too sure if we h a v e c o v e r e d th a t y e t . CHAIRPERSON : W e ll I a m n o t s u r e i f I f o l l o w. W e a r e p r e s e n tl y d e a li n g w i th t h e r e p o r t a t p a g e 7 – s t a r ti n g a t p a g e 7 3 o f E X H I B I T Z A . 20 N o w p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t o n e o f t h e p a r a g r a p h s t a lk a b o u t a r e p o r t th a t h a d b e e n a p p a r e n tl y g iv e n t o th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. Is th a t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o w h a t is t h e q u e s ti o n ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : L e t m e r a th e r r e tr a c t t h e q u e s ti o n . Page 76 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I m a y. I f I c o u l d t h e n j u s t a s k y o u t o r e a d p a r a g r a p h 1 6 a n d p a r a g r a p h 1 8 in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Of, of the same report? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O f th e s a m e r e p o r t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Paragraphs 16 and 17? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s p l e a s e . 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Paragraph 16: “ At t h is s ta g e a l l t h e i n fo r m a t i o n n e e d e d t o c o n ti n u e w i t h th e in v e s t i g a t io n is o n ly a v a i l a b le a t s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t a n d O R S . . .” O R S w i ll b e O p e r a ti o n a l R e s p o n s e S e r v i c e s . “ …a t P r o v in c i a l H e a d q u a r t e r s . We cannot get any in f o r m a ti o n f r o m P Q … ” P r o v i n c ia l H e a d q u a r te r s I a s s u m e t h a t is . “ …o w in g t o i n te r f e r e n c e a n d o b s t a c l e s fr o m s e n i o r management. 20 TVs I n r e s p e c t o f t h e t w o S o n y B r a v ia s u p p o s e d ly purchased fo r P r o v i n c ia l H e a d q u a r t e r s th e r e a p p e a r s to b e n o r e c o r d i n t h e a s s e ts o f t h e s ta t e . Th e T V s w e r e p a id fr o m t h e …” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Not that paragraph the next one w h ic h i s p a r a g r a p h 1 8 p l e a s e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : “ I n o r d e r fo r Page 77 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a n y s u c c e s s t o b e a c h i e v e d t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n t e a m must be allowed to i n v e s t ig a t e th i s m a tt e r u n h in d e r e d a n d a l s o to r e p o r t d ir e c tl y t o L ie u te n a n t G e n e r a l D r a m a t o r a n y s e n i o r o ffic e r a p p o i n te d b y him.” A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t i s c o r r e c t t h e n th a t th is r e p o r t h a s b e e n c o m p il e d b y C o l o n e l V S o o b r a m o n e y d a te d 4 J u n e 2 0 1 0 ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 W h a t i s a p p a r e n t fr o m t h i s r e p o r t a c c o r d i n g t o th e e v id e n c e th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n r e l a ti v e t o t h e r e p o r t is t h a t u n h i n d e r e d i n v e s t i g a t io n w a s n e c e s s a r y. Is th a t c o r r e c t / M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON : The earlier report that we dealt with would have been g iv e n to y o u i n M a y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d t h is w a s b e g i n n in g o f J u n e , 4 J u n e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e r e th e r e m o n th ly r e p o r ts t h a t w e r e b e i n g g iv e n 20 t o y o u a b o u t t h e p r o g r e s s o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir t h e r e w e r e n o prescribed. C H A I R P E R S O N : P e r io d s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: t h e y. Page 78 of 212 Periods on w h ic h 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : So it. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : We – it was done in a s o l i ta r y fa s h i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. S o w h a t a r e t h e i m p o r ta n t f e a t u r e s o f t h i s s e c o n d r e p o r t – th is r e p o r t th a t y o u w a n t t o h i g h li g h t i n t e r m s o f t h e r e p o r t s w e r e t o y o u a n d o b v io u s ly s e e n w h a t p r o g r e s s w a s b e i n g m a d e . Yo u w e r e t o d e c i d e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g y o u n e e d e d t o d o o r y o u s i m p ly n e e d e d t o a ll o w t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o c o n t i n u e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I h a v e c o v e r e d th is i n m y e v i d e n c e o r n o t y e t w it h r e g a r d s t o t h e e a r l ie r r e p o r t w h i c h I r e c e i v e d tw o w e e k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I f y o u t h in k i t l in k s to t h a t - t o t h is y o u c a n t a l k about it. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o c la r i fy t h a t fi r s t b e fo r e I g o in t o t h is r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o l e t u s d o t h a t . H o w d o w e d o t h a t ? W h e r e d o w e g o in o r d e r f o r y o u to t e s ti fy a b o u t s o m e th i n g th a t y o u w a n t t o t e s ti fy o r w il l y o u b e g u i d e d ? Ms September do you know what he is t a lk in g a b o u t? 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir. T h e p a g e n u m b e r i s p a g e 7 o f h is m a i n a ff id a v i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t is p a r a g r a p h 2 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : 23. Page 79 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Please proceed. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o C h a ir t h e r e p o r t t h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o t h e r e is t h e r e p o r t in E X H I B I T Z E . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Page 5. CHAIRPERSON : S o th e r e p o r t t h a t y o u t a lk a b o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t is t h e r e p o r t t h a t w e fi n d in E X H I B I T Z E ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. G o a h e a d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o w C h a ir th a t r e p o r t w h e n Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y g a v e m e t h a t r e p o r t I w a n te d t o u s e t h a t r e p o r t t o e x e r t p r e s s u r e o n th e P C , N g o b e n i . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So I went up to her o ffic e w i t h th is r e p o r t a n d I s a i d t o h e r G e n e r a l I h a v e g o t a f o ll o w u p r e p o r t f r o m t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ffic e r s – fr o m S o o b r a m o n e y – a n d i t is c le a r fr o m t h i s r e p o r t t h a t w e c a n n o t j u s t s w e e p t h is u n d e r th e c a r p e t . S h e th e n a s k e d m e f o r a c o p y o f t h i s r e p o r t a n d I s p e c i f ic a l ly m e n ti o n 20 t h is w h ic h w i ll b e c o m e e v i d e n t l a te r w h y I a m m e n ti o n i n g t h i s n o w. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: U n l e s s t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r w a n t s m e t o d e a l w i t h th a t n o w. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 80 of 212 S o s h e s a y s to m e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 g iv e m e a c o p y o f th a t r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: g a v e m e – S o o b r a m o n e y is t h e I O . Now Soobramoney H e h a s c o m p i le d t h e r e p o r t. He g a v e m e a c o p y. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o s h e s a y s to m e s h e w a n ts a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N ta n ja n a – b y t h e n s h e a ls o s u m m o n s e d N t a n j a n a b e c a u s e I s a id t o h e r b e c a u s e I s u s p e c t e d t h a t N ta n j a n a h a d n o t d o n e a n y t h i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A b o u t th e s o c a l le d in v e s t i g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: She summonsed him t o h e r o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A s k e d h i m h o w f a r th e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d g o n e a n d h e h a d s o m e o b s c u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n s w e r. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: E x p l a n a ti o n he is w a i ti n g f o r a d o c u m e n t , b u t i t w a s c l e a r th a t a b s o lu t e l y n o th i n g h a d b e e n d o n e a b o u t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . Page 81 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e n I t o l d h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s a b o u t t w o w e e k s a f t e r t h a t m e e t in g t h a t y o u t o ld u s a b o u t? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t w o w e e k s t h a t h e h a d b e e n g iv e n , N t a n j a n a ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : J a a n d it w a s c l e a r t o 10 m e t h a t h e h a d n o t e v e n c o m m e n c e d w it h a n y th in g w h a ts o e v e r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So - and I made it c le a r t o t h e m t h a t t h is r e p o r t fr o m S o o b r a m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: We cannot just leave t h is . T h e n s h e a s k e d m e f o r a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t a n d s o d i d N t a n j a n a . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I m a d e tw o c o p ie s . I gave one to Ngobeni and one to Ntanjana. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . Yo u a s k e d to d e a l w it h t h is in r e s p o n s e t o – b e c a u s e I h a d a s k e d y o u t h e q u e s ti o n w h a t y o u d i d a f t e r r e a d i n g t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t fr o m S o o b r a m o n e y. T h e r e p o r t t h a t is i n E X H I B I T Z A s t a r ti n g I th i n k a t p a g e 7 3 . S o m y q u e s t io n w a s w h e t h e r a r is in g fr o m r e a d in g th a t r e p o r t th e r e w a s a n y th in g y o u d id . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 82 of 212 N o n o t f r o m m y s id e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : N o t fr o m y o u r s i d e , b u t th e r e p o r t w a s d ir e c t e d t o y o u . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s a n d , a n d i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n a l s o to General Dramat or you do not know? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Chair I, I suspect and I am speculating. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I t h in k S o o b r a m o n e y a t t h i s j u n c tu r e t h o u g h t B o o y s e n is a l s o in w i t h t h e P C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o h e – I s u s p e c t th a t h e g a v e t h is t o D r a m a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Because I think they s u s p e c t e d t h a t I a m a ls o i n v o l v e d i n c o v e r i n g u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e i n v e s t i g a t io n . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . O k a y, b u t w h y w o u l d y o u n o t h a v e d o n e a n y th in g a r i s i n g o u t o f i t i n t h e li g h t o f w h a t a p p e a r s to b e a r e p e a t e d plea. I th i n k s t a r ti n g fr o m t h e p r e v i o u s r e p o r t t o s a y w e n e e d to b e a ffo r d e d a n u n h in d e r e d i n v e s t ig a ti o n . I w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e w a n te d to g o b a c k t o S o o b r a m o n e y a n d I s a y h e a r t h a t j u s t lik e i n th e fir s t r e p o r t y o u g a v e m e y o u a r e s ti ll c o n c e r n e d th a t y o u a r e Page 83 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n o t g e tt i n g a n u n h i n d e r e d in v e s t i g a t io n . T h is i s w h a t I h a v e t o s a y about it. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir v a r i o u s e v e n ts u n f o l d e d a f te r t h i s w h ic h w il l b e c o m e c le a r i n m y e v i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d m y i n t e r a c ti o n s w i t h S o o b r a m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 And I do not want to p r e - e m p t w h a t m y e v i d e n c e is g o in g to b e l a te r o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: With regards to m e e ti n g s I h a d w i th t h e P C a n d i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t w e r e g iv e n w it h r e g a r d s t o , t o S o o b r a m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: But. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u d i d ta k e c e r t a i n s t e p s is t h a t r i g h t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Soobramoney knew t h a t I h a d t h e ir b a c k . A l l t h o s e i n v e s t ig a to r s k n e w t h a t I h a d t h e ir b a c k . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: And I made it a b u n d a n tl y c l e a r t o th e m . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t I w i ll , I w il l p r o t e c t t h e m i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d I t h i n k I h a v e p r o v e n t h a t Page 84 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h r o u g h o u t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : ju d g m e n t c a l l . and so on. Ye s . Well Ms September you may have to make a C e r ta i n t h i n g s b e lo n g t o c e r ta i n e v e n ts a n d t h e t i m in g S o I l e a v e i t t o y o u w h e th e r t h e t h i n g s t h a t h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h n o w o r la t e r, b u t it is l o g ic a l t h a t i f y o u g e t a r e p o r t a n d p e o p le r e p o r t to y o u , y o u s h o u l d ta lk a b o u t w h a t y o u m a y h a v e d o n e a s a r e s u lt o f th a t r e p o r t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m – y o u h a v e y o u r o w n p l a n o f h o w y o u w a n t to 10 d e a l w it h t h is . S o I a m j u s t a l e r ti n g y o u t h a t s o m e o f t h e m o s t n a t u r a l q u e s t io n s th a t a r is e m i g h t n e e d to b e a d d r e s s e d e a r l ie r th a n h o w t h e s t a te m e n t h a s b e e n a r r a n g e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I n f a c t h e is a b o u t t o a d d r e s s s o m e o f t h e q u e r i e s t h a t C h a ir h a s n o w r a i s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t o t h a t e n d i t w a s d u r in g l a t e J u n e 2 0 1 0 t h a t y o u w e r e o n c e a g a i n s u m m o n s e d t o t h e P o lic e 20 C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s o ff ic e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Can I ju s t check w h e r e a b o u t w e a r e i n m y, i n m y s t a te m e n t ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u c a n t u r n t o p a g e 8 p a r a g r a p h 2 4 . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e e x p l a i n t o th e C h a ir w h a t h a d Page 85 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e n tr a n s p ir e d a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r m e e t i n g a n d w h o w a s p r e s e n t . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. P a r a g r a p h 2 8 , d id y o u s a y p a r a g r a p h 2 8 ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Paragraph 24. C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 4 . O k a y. Te l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d s o m e t i m e i n J u n e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a i r I w a s c a ll e d t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s o ffi c e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 A n d s o I to o k th e li f t a n d I w e n t t o h e r o ffic e a n d s h e h a s a n o ffic e w i th a n a d j o u r n in g b o a r d r o o m w h ic h a r e s e p a r a te d . Th e r e is a d o o r b e tw e e n t h e t w o a n d I e n t e r e d t h e o ff ic e a n d s h e a s k e d m e t o g o w i t h h e r i n t o t h e b o a r d r o o m . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o s h e g o u p fr o m b e h in d h e r d e s k a n d I g o t u p a n d s h e o p e n e d t h e d o o r. W e w e n t in t o t h e b o a r d r o o m a n d o n e n t e r in g t h e b o a r d r o o m I n o t ic e d a la d y w h o w a s in tr o d u c e d to m e a s Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta s h a ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : G iy a p e r s a d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S h e w a s a n a tt o r n e y. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th e n there a n o t h e r g e n t le m a n w h o m I r e c o g n is e d a s b e i n g A d v o c a t e Mk h iz e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 86 of 212 was 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: If I can. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I r e c o g n is e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y, s o r r y t o i n t e r r u p t y o u , b u t j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d c a n I a s k y o u t o s p e ll Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d p l e a s e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t is G - I- Y- A- P - E- R - S A-D. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h e o n e g e n tl e m a n t h e r e I r e c o g n i s e d a s b e in g A d v o c a t e Mk h iz e a n d I h a d e n g a g e d w i t h 10 h i m b e f o r e i n p o l ic e m a t t e r s – in H i g h C o u r t m a t t e r s . S o h e o b v i o u s l y k n e w m e a n d h e s t o o d u p a n d g r e e te d m e a n d th e n I w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o a g e n t l e m a n b y t h e n a m e o f To s h a n P a n d a y. CHAIRPERSON : So the Provincial Commissioner asked that the two of y o u p r o c e e d t o th e b o a r d r o o m ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n t h e b o a r d r o o m y o u m e t t h e th r e e p e r s o n s w h o y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d . S o , s o i t w a s n o w i n t h a t b o a r d r o o m y o u r s e l f , th e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r, A d v o c a t e Mk h iz e , M s G i y a p e r s a d a n d th e r e w a s s o m e b o d y e l s e a s w e ll , P a n d a y. 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : To s h a n P a n d a y. CHAIRPERSON : To s h a n P a n d a y, ja . O k a y, j a . Proceed and what happened? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir d u r in g t h is m e e ti n g a n d I f e l t v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e d u r in g t h i s m e e t i n g b e c a u s e I n o w r e a li s e d th a t To s h a n P a n d a y w a s o n e o f t h e m a in s u b j e c ts o f t h i s Page 87 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h a n d i t w a s a l m o s t a s if h e c h a i r e d t h e m e e ti n g . H e a c c u s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : U p t o , u p t o th e t i m e y o u e n t e r e d t h e b o a r d r o o m y o u s t il l d id n o t k n o w w h a t t h e m e e t in g w a s a b o u t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y y o u w e r e c a ll e d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t a t a l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t a t a l l C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . O k a y t e ll . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t a t a l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n th e m e e ti n g s ta r t e d . AJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So a ft e r th e in tr o d u c t i o n s I w a s b a s ic a lly p e p p e r e d w i t h q u e s ti o n s fr o m P a n d a y a n d G iy a p e r s a d . T h e y a c c u s e d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s o f n o t h a v in g a m a n d a t e a n d th e y a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g u n l a w fu lly a n d t h e y w e r e a l m o s t o n a f is h i n g e x p e d it i o n t o tr y a n d I h a d t o n e g o ti a t e m y w a y t h r o u g h th is m e e t in g tr y i n g t o a v o id a n s w e r i n g c e r t a in q u e s t i o n s b e c a u s e I w a s n o t g o in g to g iv e f e e d b a c k . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h a n g o n . Yo u h a v e b e e n c a ll e d b y t h e Pr o v i n c i a l Commissioner and, and she takes you into the boardroom where there a r e t h e p e o p l e w h o y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d . T h e m e e t i n g is s u p p o s e d to o p e n , to b e o p e n e d a n d e v e r y b o d y g e ts t o ld w h a t t h e m e e t in g is a b o u t a n d o n e w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t t h e Pr o v in c i a l C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d b e th e p e r s o n – t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n w h o w o u ld Page 88 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 do that. Did she do t hat? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir th is w a s n o o r d i n a r y m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s w a s n o t a n o r d i n a r y m e e ti n g . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t is w h y I s a y i t a l m o s t li k e To s h a n P a n d a y w a s c h a ir i n g th e m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , b u t d id h e s a y w h a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t o r d i d h e ju s t s ta r t a s k i n g y o u q u e s ti o n s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 N o t h e y s ta r t e d b y – o b v i o u s l y e v e r y o n e b y n o w k n e w a b o u t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So he started by m a k i n g a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t – a n d h i s a t t o r n e y s t a r t e d ta lk i n g a n d t h e n h e w o u ld i n te r r u p t her and th e y were asking q u e s t io n s about the in v e s t i g a t io n w h a t m a n d a te d o w e h a v e a n d t h e y e v e n s a id t h a t . CHAIRPERSON : But had you been told why each one was here and so o n ? Yo u h a d n o t b e e n t o l d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t th e ir r o l e w a s ? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No. CHAIRPERSON : S o t h e r e w a s a n a tt o r n e y. There was a suspect . There was an advocate. T h e r e w a s a P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d yourself. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir I f e lt a l o t li k e I had been ambushed. Page 89 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s h o w I f e l t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e a t t o r n e y w a s P a n d a y ’s a t t o r n e y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s Mk h iz e h is a d v o c a t e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . C o n t in u e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: And they l e v e l le d t h e s e a ll e g a t i o n s a n d I w a s f o r l a c k o f a b e tt e r d e s c r i p ti o n tr y i n g t o d o 10 s o m e s h a d o w b o x i n g a r o u n d t h e a l le g a ti o n s a n d I j u s t w a n t e d t o g e t o u t there. O n e o f t h e a l l e g a ti o n s t h a t t h e y c a m e u p w i th w a s t h a t S o o b r a m o n e y w a s e x t o r ti n g m o n e y fr o m P a n d a y. S o to m y a m a z e m e n t t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r w h o h a d a lr e a d y i n s tr u c te d m e t o s t o p th is c r i m i n a l in v e s ti g a t io n n o w t e l ls m e t o i n v e s t ig a t e – s h e t e l ls m e t o in v e s t i g a t e m y i n v e s ti g a to r - S o o b r a m o n e y – fo r t h e s o c a ll e d e x t o r ti o n . S o I in d i c a t e d t o t h e p e o p l e t h a t I c a n o n l y i n v e s t ig a t e if t h e y g i v e m e a n a ff id a v i t w h i c h G iy a p e r s a d u n d e r t o o k t o s u p p l y to m e . S h e d i d s u b s e q u e n t ly – w e l l m a y b e i f I c o u l d ju s t f in is h w i t h th is , w i t h t h is m e e ti n g C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , f in is h w i th t h e m e e t in g , j a . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o d u r in g t h is m e e t in g a s I s a id I w a s p e p p e r e d w it h q u e s ti o n s a n d I h a d t o n e g o ti a t e m y w a y t h r o u g h tr y i n g to a v o i d t a l k i n g a b o u t s p e c i fi c s . I d e a l t w i th th e a c c u s a ti o n s a n d t o l d t h e m w e l l I c a n n o t s e e t h e m a c c e s s i n g b a n k s t a te m e n ts e tc e t e r a u n la w f u l ly b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o Page 90 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 u til is e t h a t a s e v i d e n c e a t a l a t e r s ta g e a n d t h a t i s a ft e r i n s tr u c t io n w a s g iv e n th a t I s h o u l d i n v e s t ig a te S o o b r a m o n e y th e m e e ti n g w a s th e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s th e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o l e t u s tr y a n d g e t t h e g is t o f w h a t w a s s a i d . T h e r e w e r e a ll e g a t io n s t h a t y o u p e o p l e w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g w i th o u t a m a n d a t e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w a s th e b a s is g iv e n fo r t h a t a l le g a ti o n , w a s t h e r e a b a s is g iv e n w h y t h a t a l le g a ti o n w a s b e i n g m a d e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir as I said P a n d a y w a s c a r r y i n g o n t h e r e li k e h e w a s t h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e C h a ir p e r s o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: The P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d h e w a s g o in g l ik e t h is a n d h e s a i d to G iy a p e r s a d , I w a n t y o u t o s u e th e m , I’ m g o i n g t o 20 s u e y o u , it w a s a c tu a lly q u i te , I w a s a c t u a ll y q u i te a n n o y e d w i t h th e w a y i n w h i c h h e c a r r i e d o n t h e r e a s i f h e w a s t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , d i d th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s a y a n y th in g d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 91 of 212 No she didn’t. 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e j u s t s a t t h e r e a n d lis t e n e d . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S h e s a t th e r e a n d lis t e n e d to a s u s p e c t i n t e r r o g a t i n g m e a b o u t a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d A d v o c a te M k i s i d i d h e s a y a n y t h i n g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I h a d q u i t e a c o r d i a l r e la t io n s h ip w i t h M k is i b e c a u s e o f o u r p r e v io u s e n g a g e m e n t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: B u t h e w a s m e r e ly a s p e c t a t o r a n d I m u s t s a y – a n d h e a ls o p a s s e d o n s u b s e q u e n t ly. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o t h e o n e a ll e g a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e w a s t h a t y o u p e o p l e w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g w i th o u t a m a n d a t e , b u t I’ m n o t s u r e if th a t m a k e s s e n s e t o m e , I m e a n th a t a l l e g a ti o n , t h e p o li c e a r e th e r e t o in v e s t i g a t e , w h o i s s u p p o s e d to g iv e t h e p o li c e th e ir m a n d a te th e y a r e t h e r e t o i n v e s t ig a t e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Chair it didn’t make s e n s e to m e , e i t h e r a t t h e ti m e a n d s t il l d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e to m e , h e – they said we had no mandate to investigate, I don’t know what he m e a n t b y t h a t, w h e t h e r w e h a d t o s e e k a u t h o r i ty fr o m t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r o r w h e t h e r w e h a d t o g e t p r io r a u t h o r i ty fr o m w h o m e v e r 20 t o in v e s t i g a t e b u t t h e y s a i d t h a t m y p e o p l e d i d n o t h a v e a m a n d a t e t o d o t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s s o t h e o n e a ll e g a t i o n w a s t h a t y o u p e o p l e w e r e in v e s t i g a t in g w i th o u t a m a n d a t e , a n o t h e r o n e w a s t h a t S o o b r a m o n e y w a s d e m a n d i n g m o n e y f o r t h e m i n o r d e r f o r t h e m t o s to p th e in v e s t i g a t io n e x to r t io n . Page 92 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t th e r e w a s a n o th e r a c c u s a ti o n a s w e ll a n d t h a t w a s t h a t m y in v e s t i g a t o r s w e r e a c c e s s i n g b a n k s t a te m e n ts u n la w f u ll y. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And I made it clear to t h e m I d o u b t t h a t t h e y w o u l d d o s o m e t h i n g li k e th a t b e c a u s e t h e y w o u ld t h e n n o t b e a b l e t o u t il is e th o s e b a n k s t a te m e n ts a s e v id e n c e i n t h e C o u r t o f L a w. CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s a n d y o u s a y th a t y o u r e s p o n d e d – y o u tr i e d t o r e s p o n d i n g e n e r a l w i t h o u t s p e c i fi c s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d th e n t h e m e e t in g w a s o v e r. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d t h e m e e t in g e n d e d o n th e b a s is t h a t i n s o f a r a s t h e y w e r e a c c u s i n g S o o b r a m o n e y o f e x t o r ti o n , y o u s a i d t h e y m u s t g iv e y o u a n a ff i d a v i t a n d th e n y o u w o u ld b e a b l e t o l o o k i n t o t h a t. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. J a a n d a f te r t h e m e e t i n g d i d y o u h a v e a c h a n c e t o s a y t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r w h a t w a s th is a l l a b o u t , w h a t ’s 20 going on? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir i t w a s s t a r t in g t o b e c o m e c le a r to m e t h a t s o m e t h i n g w a s a m is s , s o I – a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t I d i d n ’ t e v e n w a n t t o t a lk t o h e r a f t e r t h a t I ju s t e x c u s e d m y s e l f a n d w e n t to m y o ff ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . Page 93 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: On your suspicion as your evidence e n t a i ls t h a t s o m e t h i n g w a s a m is s , c a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 1 7 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t – m a i n a ff id a v i t i n B u n d l e Z A a t p a r a g r a p h 5 5 . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Paragraph? 5 5 s o i t ’s p a g e 1 7 a t p a r a g r a p h 5 5 , r e fe r e n c e t h e r e is m a d e t o a n in d e p e n d e n t f o r e n s i c r e p o r t c a n y o u p l e a s e i n f o r m t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h is i n th e c o n te x t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u ’v e g i v e n s o f a r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 C h a i r I r e f e r to a f o r e n s ic a u d it r e p o r t b y P r i c e Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s w h ic h i s a n in d e p e n d e n t f ir m o f a c c o u n t a n t s w h o m w e h a d c o m m is s i o n e d to d o a in d e p e n d e n t f o r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n i n to t h e fi n a n c i a l a s p e c ts o f th e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e m o n e y b u t e v e n b e f o r e I a c q u ir e d t h is r e p o r t fr o m P r ic e Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r th e i n v e s ti g a to r s h a d r e p o r t e d t o m e – a n d t h a t w a s d u r i n g t h e s a m e p e r io d t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s b e i n g s to p p e d a n d I t h i n k i t w a s l a te M a y t h a t t h e r e had been a b ir t h d a y p a r ty for the hus band of the Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, i t w a s a s u r p r is e b ir t h d a y p a r t y a n d th e i n v e s t i g a t o r s in f o r m e d m e t h a t th is p a r ty h a d b e e n p a i d f o r b y To s h a n P a n d a y, i t w a s 20 a l a v i s h p a r ty i n a h o te l i n U m h l a n g a R o c k s . So those reports had a l e r t e d m e t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g a m is s h e r e . C H A I E R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And according to the report what was t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y t h a t w a s s p e n t o n t h e b ir t h d a y p a r t y f o r t h e h u s b a n d o f th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t th e ti m e ? Page 94 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir the f ig u r e quoted was R30 000.00 but there were other statements in the in v e s t i g a t io n w h ic h i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e p a r ty a c t u a l ly c o s t R 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d w h e n P a n d a y p a i d f o r i t w i th h is c r e d i t c a r d h e a s k e d f o r a r e c e i p t o f R 3 0 0 0 0 .0 0 I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h is i n te n t io n s w e r e t o o b t a i n a r e c e i p t for a higher amount but it would appear that the actual amount paid was R20 000.00 whereas th e r e c e ip t o b t a in e d by him was for R30 000.00. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 CHAIRPERSON : in d e p e n d e n t Thank you. S o t h e – s o w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g is t h e r e w a s a n fo r e n s ic audit report from P r ic e Wa t e r h o u s e which r e fl e c t e d t h a t M r P a n d a y h a d p a i d a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o f m o n e y fo r a b ir t h d a y – fo r t h e b ir th d a y p a r ty o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r ’s h u s b a n d a n d t h a t t h e a m o u n t m e n ti o n e d w a s a b o u t R 3 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t b e f o r e I h a d t h is r e p o r t th e in v e s t i g a t o r s h a d a lr e a d y i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t th e r e w a s t h i s p a r ty f o r w h ic h P a n d a y h a d p a i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h is r e p o r t w a s c o n f ir m i n g s o m e th in g y o u h a d heard? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s r i g h t. CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d j u s t to c l a r i fy, t h a t b i r t h d a y p a r t y h a p p e n e d , a p p r o x i m a te ly w h e n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I th in k i t w a s to w a r d s t h e e n d o f M a y C h a i r r o u n d a b o u t th e 2 9 t h o f M a y. Page 95 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : O h i t ’s s o m e t h i n g th a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h e s a m e y e a r w h e n y o u s t a r t e d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s r ig h t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o i f I c a n j u s t q u ic k ly ta k e y o u b a c k t o t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u h a d in la t e – i f w e c a n g o b a c k n o w to p a r a g r a p h 2 4 o n p a g e 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON : I ’ m s o r r y j u s t t o c o n n e c t t h i s , i f t h e b ir t h d a y p a r t y h a p p e n e d s o m e ti m e l a te i n M a y 2 0 1 0 it m e a n s i t h a p p e n e d – i t m e a n s 10 t h a t w h e n y o u w e r e c a ll e d f o r t h e f i r s t ti m e b y t h e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r w h e n y o u w e r e o n t h e r o a d in y o u r c a r a n d w h e n t h e s e c o n d c a ll a ls o c a m e a n d w h e n t h a t m e e ti n g h a p p e n e d , i n a ll p r o b a b i li ty a r r a n g e m e n t s f o r th a t p a r t y w e r e h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e i t ’s t h e s a m e m o n th ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir w h a t I c a n s a y a b o u t t h a t th e r e ’s a n o t h e r w it n e s s w h o h a d d e p o s e d t o a n a ffi d a v i t th a t – i t’s o n e o f t h e s e c r e t a r i e s o f t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r a n d s h e m a d e a s ta t e m e n t , w h ic h I h a v e a c o p y o f a n d w h ic h s h e s a y s , I t h i n k i t w a s o n t h e 2 6 t h o f M a y, th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r, d u r in g t h e 20 m o r n in g m e e ti n g , I w a s n ’ t p r e s e n t a t th a t m e e ti n g , t h e n i n d ic a te d t h e r e w a s g o in g t o b e t h is p a r ty – s u r p r i s e p a r ty f o r h e r h u s b a n d a n d t h a t s h e w o u ld i n v i te c e r ta i n in d i v i d u a ls a n d s h e a p o lo g i s e d t o t h o s e p r e s e n t t h a t s h e c o u l d n o t i n v it e a ll o f t h e m fo r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s a n d s h e s til l in d i c a t e d to o n e o f th e b r ig a d i e r s , a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s t a te m e n t , B r i g a d i e r W in k e l m a n th a t i t ’s n o t b e c a u s e I d o n ’t li k e y o u i f I d o n ’ t i n v i t e y o u i t ’s Page 96 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 b e c a u s e o f o t h e r c o n s tr a in ts b u t th e s i g n if ic a n t p a r t o f w h a t o c c u r r e d t h e r e w a s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e m e e t in g b e c a u s e t h e s e c r e t a r y t h e n w e n t t o t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d a s k e d h e r t h o s e t h a t’s g o in g t o b e i n v i t e d , a r e t h e s p o u s e s a l s o i n v it e d a n d i t’s a t t h a t p o i n t w h e r e t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r l o o k e d a t t h e m i n u t e s a n d s a w th a t s h e h a d r e c o r d e d t h e is s u e a b o u t t h e p a r ty a n d th e n s h e r e m o n s t r a t e d w i th h e r f o r h a v in g r e c o r d e d t h a t a s p a r t o f t h e m in u te s a n d t h a t w a s o n th e 2 6 t h . S o i t w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n p r e p a r a t i o n s fo r th e p a r ty p r i o r t o t h a t. 10 CHAIRPERSON : O k a y th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I f I c o u ld t h e n ju s t q u i c k l y ta k e y o u b a c k t o p a g e 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h ic h t h e n d e ta il s – a t w h ic h y o u t h e n a d d r e s s th e e v id e n c e th a t y o u h a d a lr e a d y g iv e n i n r e l a ti o n to t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d la t e J u n e 2 0 1 0 , c a n I j u s t a s k w h a t e x a c t ly w a s t h e P o lic e C o m m i s s io n e r ’s a t ti t u d e a t t h a t m e e ti n g t o w a r d s c o n ti n u a n c e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W h ic h m e e t in g a r e w e r e f e r r in g to C h a ir ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 Th e o n e a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 a t w h i c h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n e v i d e n c e w h e r e M r P a n d a y, Mr s Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d a n d A d v o c a t e M k is i w a s p r e s e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Is n ’ t t h a t t h e o n e w h e r e h e s a i d th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s q u ie t th r o u g h o u t , is t h a t n o t th e o n e ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON : Ye s C h a ir t h a t is i n d e e d . Ye s w h a t ’s t h e q u e s t i o n t h e n ? Page 97 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M y q u e s t io n is w a s – d i d t h e P o lic e C o m m i s s i o n e r i n d ic a te h e r a tt i tu d e a t a l l to c o n t in u a n c e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Not during th e m e e ti n g C h a ir b u t b e fo r e w e m e t , a n d I o m i t te d to m e n t io n i t b e f o r e w e w e n t i n s h e c o n fir m e d w i th m e t h a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d s t o p p e d b e f o r e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : S h e c o n fir m e d t h a t t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n s h o u l d b e stopped? 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No that it had stopped. CHAIRPERSON : That it had stopped? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o I c o n fir m e d w i t h h e r th a t i t h a d s to p p e d b e c a u s e i t d i d n o t b u t t h a t’s j u s t b e f o r e w e entered the boardroom. CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y s o ju s t b e f o r e y o u g e t i n to t h e b o a r d r o o m s h e s a y s t o y o u th e i n v e s t i g a t io n h a s s t o p p e d . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : 20 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n th a t s h e w a s ta lk i n g a b o u t t h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g h a s s t o p p e d , w o u ld b e t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n b y N t a n j a n a b e c a u s e s h e h a d s a i d N ta n j a n a w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s g o i n g t o i n v e s t ig a t e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o C h a ir I t h i n k s h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h t h a t , th a t h a d stopped. Page 98 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Because we were now g o i n g to e n t e r i n to a m e e ti n g w i t h P a n d a y a n d c o m p a n y a n d I t h i n k s h e ju s t w a n t e d to g e t c la r i ty fr o m m e b e fo r e w e e n te r e d t h e r e t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d s t o p p e d . CHAIRPERSON : Oh but was she asking you whether it had stopped or w a s s h e t e l li n g y o u th a t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a d s t o p p e d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o b y th e n s h e h a d a lr e a d y t o l d m e o n m o r e t h a n o n e o c c a s io n t o s to p i t s o b e fo r e w e 10 e n t e r e d s h e a s k e d m e h a s t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n – h a s i t s t o p p e d s o I s a i d to her yes. CHAIRPERSON : Oh okay now I understand. Okay but then – okay w h e n y o u g e t i n to th e m e e ti n g s h e d o e s n ’ t t e ll th e s e p e o p l e t h a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n h a s s t o p p e d i n s t e a d t h e p e o p l e a r e b o m b a r d in g y o u w i t h q u e s t io n s b u t y o u a l s o d id n ’t s a y b u t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a s s t o p p e d , y o u d i d n ’ t s a y th a t e i t h e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o I d i d n o t s a y th a t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s b u t s h e a ls o d i d n ’ t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : No she didn’t. Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, th a n k y o u fo r c la r i fy in g th a t p o i n t a n d i t w a s th e n a t t h a t m e e t i n g th a t y o u w e r e – y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t S o o b r a m o n e y w a s – o r r a th e r a ll e g a t io n s w e r e m a d e a g a in s t h i m i n r e la t io n t o e x t o r t io n fr o m M r To s h a n P a n d a y, t h a t’s Page 99 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 correct? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. what was the P o l ic e C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s d i r e c ti o n to y o u i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t a l le g a ti o n a g a i n s t Mr Soobremoney? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir th e n s h e s a i d t o m e t h a t I s h o u l d i n v e s ti g a t e C o l o n e l Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And did you? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 I d id C h a ir, I r e q u e s t e d th e n f o r a n a ff id a v i t a n d I t h i n k i t w a s a d a y o r tw o l a t e r Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d , t h e a t t o r n e y a r r iv e d a t my o ff ic e w i t h a s ta t e m e n t, ju s t li k e a h a l f p a g e i t w a s n ’t e v e n a f u ll p a g e b u t i t w a s o n e o f t h e s e n o n s e n s ic a l s ta t e m e n ts t h a t – t a k e n fr o m P a n d a y o b v i o u s l y th a t h e h a d r e c e i v e d t h i s a n o n y m o u s c a ll a n d s o m e o n e e x t o r ti n g a m i ll i o n r a n d fr o m h i m b u t th e y c o u ld n ’t i d e n ti fy t h e p e r s o n . S o I t o o k t h a t s t a t e m e n t a n d t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g – n o - o n e e l s e t h a t I c o u l d a p p r o a c h t o c o n fir m s o I c o n fr o n t e d – w e ll i f I s a y c o n f r o n te d I s a y th a t i n i n v e r t e d c o m m a s , Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y a n d I t o l d h i m a b o u t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d I o b t a i n e d a w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t fr o m h i m a n d I p r e s e n t e d t h e d o c k e t to 20 t h e s e n i o r p u b li c p r o s e c u t o r w h o t h e n w e n t t h r o u g h t h e d o c k e t a n d h e d e c l in e d t o p r o s e c u t e th e m a t t e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h is is th e s a m e C o lo n e l S o o b r a m o n e y w h o h a d a u th o r e d t h e r e p o r t s th a t y o u h a v e s u b mi t t e d t o t h is C o m m is s i o n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 100 of 212 That was the same 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 S o o b r a m o n e y C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u , a b o u t o n e w e e k la t e r y o u w e r e s u m m o n e d to a n o t h e r m e e t in g . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : W e l l l e t h i m d o t h e t e s t if y i n g l e t h i m t e s t i fy a b o u t these events don’t – yes. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So Chair I was – a b o u t a w e e k la t e r I w a s c a ll e d t o a n o t h e r m e e t i n g t h is t i m e a r o u n d s a m e s c e n a r i o , g o t o t h e o ff ic e . . .( in t e r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w to t h e – y o u w e r e c a l le d to t h e P r o v i n c i a l 10 C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s o ff ic e a g a i n . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t ’s r ig h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is t i m e w h o c a l l e d y o u , d i d s o m e b o d y p h o n e y o u t h is ti m e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So what would h a p p e n C h a ir th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s s e c r e t a r y w o u ld p h o n e my s e c r e t a r y w o u ld t h e n t e ll m e t h e P C w a n t s t o s e e y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr ig h t y o u w e r e in t h e s a m e b u i l d i n g y o u w e r e o n t h e 1 4 t h f lo o r a n d s h e w a s o n t h e 1 8 t h fl o o r. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 She was on the 18th fl o o r s o I g e t i n t o t h e li f t , g o u p t o h e r o ffi c e , e x a c tl y t h e s a m e th i n g h a p p e n e d , g o i n to h e r o ffic e , s h e ’s a lo n e d o o r c l o s e d t o th e b o a r d r o o m s h e c o n fir m s w i th m e t h a t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d s to p p e d , I c o n f ir m th e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d s to p p e d s h e s a i d c o m e w i th m e , w e g o in t o th e b o a r d r o o m , s a m e s c e n a r i o b u t th is ti m e . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : H a n g o n , h a n g o n y o u ju s t t o ld u s a b o u t a m e e ti n g Page 101 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h a t h a p p e n e d w h e r e y o u g o t c a ll e d to h e r o ffi c e a n d y o u w e n t i n to h e r o ffic e s h e w a s a l o n e a n d s h e s a id th e t w o o f y o u h a d t o g o t o t h e b o a r d r o o m w h i c h is a d j a c e n t to h e r o ff ic e o r fr o m h e r o ff ic e y o u g o i n t o t h e b o a r d r o o m , y o u w e n t i n t o th e b o a r d r o o m w i t h h e r a n d f o u n d c e r ta i n p e o p l e t h e r e . N o w a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t n o w t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r m e e ti n g w h e r e m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e t h i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g , y o u g o i n to h e r o ffic e , t h e n s h e s a y s y o u m u s t g o i n t o t h e b o a r d r o o m , s h e a s k s y o u a b o u t th e in v e s ti g a t io n w h e t h e r i t h a s s t o p p e d , y o u c o n f ir m i t h a s stopped and then you go into the boardroom, is that what you are 10 s a y in g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s w h a t I ’ m s a y in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in - b e tw e e n fr o m t h e p r e v i o u s m e e t in g th e r e h a d b e e n n o i n t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I tr i e d t o a v o i d h e r C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s b u t d i d s h e t r y to m a k e c o n t a c t . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Not that I can recall C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m j u s t w o n d e r in g w h y w h e n y o u h a d to l d h e r b e f o r e t h a t th e i n v e s t i g a t io n h a d s t o p p e d s h e w o u l d c a l l y o u u p a n d s h e a s k e d y o u a g a in , h a s th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t o p p e d a n d y o u s a y y e s a n d th e n – it ’s lik e a r e p e a t o f t h e p r e v i o u s m e e t in g . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I suspect what could h a v e h a p p e n e d i s , P a n d a y a n d M a n d o e a r e s u b j e c ts o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n Page 102 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o b v i o u s l y h a d a n e tw o r k a n d t h e y k n e w t h a t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d n ’t stopped because witnesses are now being approached fr o m a r e s p e c ti v e b e d & b r e a k f a s t , s o a l th o u g h I’ m t e l li n g h e r th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a d s t o p p e d . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : T h e tr u th w a s i t h a d n o t s t o p p e d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d i t c o u ld n o t b e c o n c e a l e d b e c a u s e w e h a d t o a p p r o a c h – C h a ir i n t h e e n d th e r e w e r e o v e r 2 0 0 a ffi d a v i t s o b t a in e d in t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o s o m e h o w i t m u s t h a v e g o t t e n to P a n d a y a n d M a n d o e t h a t , lo o k , t h a t i n s p i t e o f th e 10 a s s u r a n c e s g iv e n b y th e P C t h i s th in g is s t il l p r o c e e d i n g a n d I t h in k i t w a s a t th e ir b e h e s t t h a t s h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON : C a l l e d t h e m e e ti n g . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t ’s r ig h t C h a ir, s h e e n te r ta in e d t h e m . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y a lr i g h t s o I s t o p p e d y o u a s y o u w e r e s a y in g y o u w e n t t o h e r o ffic e a n d th e n t h e t w o o f y o u w e n t in t o t h e b o a r d r o o m but before going to the boardroom she asked you w h e th e r th e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d s t o p p e d a n d y o u s a i d y e s a n d th e n y o u e n te r e d t h e boardroom. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: second ambush C h a ir, now th is ti m e around S o I w e n t in t o a because of my e n g a g e m e n ts w i th a n u m b e r o f H ig h C o u r t c a s e s , I k n e w m o s t o f t h e c o u n s e l in , e s p e c ia ll y D u r b a n , s o I w a lk e d in a n d t h e r e a g a i n I e n c o u n te r e d A d v o c a t e C h o u d r e e S C w h o m I k n e w a n d A d v o c a t e S ti x M d la d la w h o m I a ls o k n e w. S o w e e x c h a n g e d g r e e t in g s a n d t h e n w it h Page 103 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e m w a s a g a i n Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d t h e a t to r n e y a n d To s h a n P a n d a y. More or less the same scenario unfolded that had occurred previously b u t th is t i m e a r o u n d b y th e n t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s h a d r e p o r t e d t o m e th a t G iy a p e r s a d h a d b e e n i n t e r fe r i n g w i t h th e in v e s t i g a t io n . What had h a p p e n e d is , s ta t e m e n t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n o b t a i n e d a n d I c a n r e c a ll o n e s p e c i f ic o n e f r o m B o n g o la i t w a s a t , I t h i n k , C r o c o d i le L o d g e , C r o c o d il e C r e e k o r s o m e t h i n g c a l le d l ik e t h a t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Yo u m e n t io n i t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 9 i f I c a n d ir e c t y o u t h e r e . 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t’s r ig h t C r o c o d il e Creek Guest House, now the owner of that Guest House was Edward N g w e n y a , t h e i n v e s t ig a to r s r e p o r t e d to m e t h e r e w e r e a t le a s t t w o w i t n e s s e s – I r e c a l l th is s p e c i fi c o n e w h i c h h a d b e e n a p p r o a c h e d b y Panday and in th is p a r ti c u la r instance when we did f u r th e r in v e s t i g a t io n s o r t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s d id f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n b u t I t h e n p h o n e d a c a p t a i n i n – s o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is E d w a r d N g w e n y a h a d a lr e a d y m a d e a n a ff id a v i t t o t h e i n v e s t ig a to r s a n d th e r e w a s a n o t h e r g u y b y th e n a m e o f S in g h I c a n n o t r e c a ll s o t h e y r e p o r t t o m e t h a t t h e s e s a m e w i tn e s s e s w h o h a d a lr e a d y d e p o s e d t o a ffi d a v i ts h a v e n o w 20 b e e n a p p r o a c h e d b y G i y a p e r s a d a n d I k n o w s p e c i fic a lly w i t h r e g a r d s t o N g w e n y a th a t I s e n t a c a p t a i n t h e r e t o c o n f ir m i t a n d h e p h o n e d m e b a c k a n d h e s a i d to m e n o , h e ’ d s p o k e n to N g w e n y a a n d N g w e n y a s a i d n o , b e c a u s e o f t h e d e a li n g s t h a t h e ’ d h a d w i t h G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g , in v o ic e s w e r e c o m i n g t o a n d fr o a n d h e h a d t o s i g n d o c u m e n ts , th e y ’ d s e n d h i m a d o c u m e n t w h ic h h e h a d t o s i g n w h ic h h e d i d b u t th e Page 104 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d o c u m e n t t h a t h e h a d s i g n e d , a c c o r d i n g t o th e in v e s ti g a t o r s w a s a n a ffi d a v i t w h i c h c o n f lic t e d w h a t h e h a d s a i d i n h is a ff i d a v i t t o t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s . S o I t o o k is s u e w i t h th a t a n d I s a i d a t t h e m e e t in g – s o I t h o u g h t le t m e h a v e a g o a t th e m a n d I s a id t o G iy a p e r s a d , l is t e n , y o u ’r e n o t a t l ib e r ty t o g o a n d i n t e r v ie w w i t n e s s e s th a t m y i n v e s ti g a to r s h a d a lr e a d y i n te r v i e w e d a n d t h a t d e v e lo p e d i n to a b i t o f a h e a t e d a r g u m e n t b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d G iy a p e r s a d a n d th e n i n t h e e n d A d v o c a t e C h o u d r e e s a i d to G iy a p e r s a d I t h in k t h e g e n e r a l is r i g h t j u s t l e a v e t h i s a n d w e le f t i t a t t h a t. 10 CHAIRPERSON : S o a t th is m e e ti n g th e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, o n c e a g a in , d i d n o t s a y a n y t h in g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No she did not. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir o n e c o r r e c t i o n a t t h a t s t a g e I – a n d I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c tl y a t w h a t s t a g e I in d i c a t e – b e c a u s e w e w e r e r u n n in g t h e t h i n g o n a n e n q u ir y a n d I t h i n k t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s Vo n L o g g e n b e r g , I t h in k i t w a s Vo n L o g g e n b e r g I t h i n k t h e y w e r e g e tt i n g f e d u p a n d t h e y w e n t a n d r e g is t e r e d – c o n v e r t e d th e t h i n g t o – t h e e n q u ir y to a d o c k e t t o a n a c t u a l c r i m in a l d o c k e t . 20 CHAIRPERSON : O h in t h e m e a n ti m e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n t h e m e a n ti m e . CHAIRPERSON : W i t h o u t y o u r k n o w le d g e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: knowledge. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u d i d . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . Page 105 of 212 W i th o u t my 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : B u t t h e y t o ld m e t h a t . O h t h e y t o ld y o u j a . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d I th in k i t w a s a t t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e I s a i d t o th e P C t h a t a d o c k e t’s b e e n o p e n e d n o w it ’s b e e n c o n v e r te d t o a d o c k e t a n d t h e n s h e s a i d , w e l l t h e n s h e c a n ’ t in t e r fe r e b u t I th i n k s h e w a s m e r e l y s ta t in g th e o b v i o u s . CHAIRPERSON: J a w e l l – s o w a s s h e n o t s u r p r is e d t h a t j u s t b e f o r e y o u e n te r e d th e b o a r d r o o m y o u h a d c o n fir m e d t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d s t o p p e d b u t n o w i n t h e m e e ti n g y o u ’r e s a y i n g a c t u a lly t h e 10 in v e s t i g a t io n h a d b e e n u p g r a d e d t o t h e o p e n in g o f a d o c k e t i t w a s n o lo n g e r a n e n q u ir y. I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t if s h e h a d b e l ie v e d y o u w h e n y o u s a i d th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d s t o p p e d , i f n o w a t th e m e e t i n g y o u s a y a c t u a l ly a d o c k e t h a s b e e n o p e n e d s h e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n s u r p r is e d . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I suspect she was s u r p r is e d C h a i r b e c a u s e s h e s a i d , w e l l t h e r e ’s a d o c k e t o p e n t h e n I c a n n o t i n t e r fe r e b u t my t a k e o n t h a t w a s s h e w a s m e r e ly s ta t in g t h e o b v i o u s , s h e k n e w s h e c o u l d n o t h a v e i n t e r f e r e d fr o m t h e w o r d g o . CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s s o w h a t i m p r e s s i o n d i d y o u g e t o f w h a t th e p u r p o s e o f t h i s m e e t in g w a s fr o m w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I ’ m g o in g t o s p e c u l a te a s a d e te c tiv e i t w a s – i t w a s e v id e n t to m e t h a t t h e r e w e r e c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e tw e e n t h e P C , P a n d a y a n d M a n d o e , n o w M a n d o e b e i n g t h e m i d d l e m a n w i t h i n t h e s a m e b u il d in g t h a t w e w o r k h e ’s in v o lv e d w i th t h e d e a li n g s o f To s h a n P a n d a y, I t h i n k h e ’s t h e i n - Page 106 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 b e t w e e n p e r s o n b e tw e e n P a n d a y a n d th e P C , s o t h e y w e r e a l iv e t o t h e f a c t t h a t w e w e r e – t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s o n g o i n g . I t h i n k th e r e w e r e – it w a s e i th e r t h e y w a n te d to p u t p r e s s u r e o n u s t o s t o p w it h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d a s I w i ll e x p l a in l a te r o n in m y a ff i d a v i t t h e y w e n t t o o th e r m e a s u r e s a s w e l l. S o m e l e s s d r a s t ic o t h e r s m o r e d r a s ti c t o t r y a n d e i t h e r ( i n d is t in c t ) o r c o m p r o m is e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : S o – b u t a t th is m e e t i n g w h a t a ll e g a t i o n s o r w h a t w a s s a i d r e a l ly b y t h e P a n d a y s id e i f I c a n c a ll i t t h a t b y t h e a tt o r n e y o r t h e t w o A d v o c a t e s w e r e th e r e o r h i m . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: It was the same as at t h e fi r s t m e e t i n g , t h a t w e ’r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g u n l a w f u l ly, w e ’r e m a k i n g u s e o f u n l a w fu l m e th o d s , i t w a s r e p e ti ti o n o f th e p r e v i o u s a ll e g a t io n s . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s a n d h o w d id t h is m e e ti n g e n d o r w h a t w a s t h e b a s is o n w h i c h i t e n d e d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: O b v i o u s l y C h a ir, a f t e r m y h e a t e d d is c u s s i o n w i t h G iy a p e r s a d t h e a t m o s p h e r e w a s a b i t t h ic k a n d th e m e e ti n g w a s c a ll e d o ff b y t h e P C a n d I l e f t . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s a n d d i d y o u d o a s y o u h a d d o n e in t h e p r e v io u s m e e ti n g i n t h e p r e v i o u s s i m il a r m e e ti n g t h a t a f t e r t h e m e e t in g y o u 20 d i d n ’ t w a n t to s p e a k t o th e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r, y o u l e ft o r d id y o u h a v e s o m e d i s c u s s i o n w i t h h e r a b o u t t h is m e e ti n g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o C h a ir I d i d n ’ t b u t w h a t w a s o b v i o u s t o m e a f t e r t h o s e e n g a g e m e n t s w i t h h e r, th e P C h a d a v e r y a g g r e s s iv e b e h a v i o u r i n m a n a g e m e n t m e e t in g s a n d G e n e r a l N ta n j a n a , G e n e r a l M a s e m o lo ? , G e n e r a l J u la w h o s e a n o t h e r P C i n C a p e Page 107 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 To w n w i ll b e a r m e o u t h e r e , th e w a y s h e s o m e ti m e s s p o k e t o t h e m , I w o u ld c r in g e a n d m e b e in g t h e o n ly w h i t e g e n e r a l t h e r e I – fr o m t h a t ti m e o n w a r d I b a s ic a l ly g o t a w a y w i th m u r d e r. I w o u l d s o m e ti m e s – b e c a u s e h e r m e e ti n g s c o u l d c a r r y o n f o r h o u r s a n d h o u r s a n d I w o u l d ju s t s t a y a w a y f r o m t h e m e e t i n g s , t h e y d a r e d n o t s t a y a w a y fr o m a m e e ti n g o r c o m e la t e r a t a m e e ti n g a n d s h e w o u ld h a v e a g o a t t h e m a n d s h e b a s i c a ll y l e f t m e a n d – w h a t I s e n s e fr o m t h a t i s , I t h in k s h e was scared of what we were busy with. CHAIRPERSON : 10 O k a y th a t ’s w h y s h e tr e a te d y o u d i ff e r e n tly ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I w a s tr e a t e d m u c h b e t t e r th a n a n y o f t h e o t h e r g e n e r a ls . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , yes, she w o u ld n ’ t shout at you lik e . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o C h a ir a n d i f I s t a y a w a y fr o m a m e e ti n g s h e w o u l d n ’ t e v e n a s k m e w h e r e y o u w e r e lik e s h e w o u ld d o w it h t h e r e s t o f t h e g e n e r a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t’s q u i t e s tr a n g e y e s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: q u e s t io n t o c l o s e u p t h is p o in t . 20 Just one last Yo u m e n ti o n e d t h a t a t th is p a r ti c u l a r m e e ti n g y o u w e r e a c c u s e d o f u n l a w f u l m e t h o d s o f i n v e s ti g a ti n g . P a r a g r a p h 2 8 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a l lu d e s t o a m e t h o d o f i n v e s t ig a ti n g , c a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n w h a t y o u m e a n t b y u n l a w f u l m e t h o d s th a t y o u w e r e accused of? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: They were accusing the in v e s t i g a t o r s C h a ir, o f a c c e s s in g th e i r b a n k d o c u m e n ts a n d o t h e r Page 108 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d o c u m e n ts t h a t c o u ld p o s s i b ly i n c r i m i n a te t h e m u n la w f u l ly. N o w C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n s is i n p r a c ti c e i t d o e s h a p p e n f r o m t i m e t o ti m e w h e r e in v e s t i g a t o r s w o u l d , t h r o u g h t h e i r c o n t a c ts i n t h e b a n k s , a c q u i r e in f o r m a ti o n a n d t h e n e x p o s t f a c to o b ta i n 2 0 5 ’s . W h e n th e y a c c u s e d m y i n v e s ti g a to r s i n i t ia ll y o f d o in g th a t I e n g a g e d w i th t h e m , I c a ll e d t h e m t o m y o ff ic e a n d I s a i d to t h e m , c h a p s I d o n ’t w a n t a n y o f t h i s a n d t h e y a s s u r e d m e 1 0 0 % th a t e v e r y s i n g le c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d , b a n k s t a te m e n t t h a t t h e y h a d a c q u i r e d w e r e l a w f u l ly d o n e b y m e a n s o f S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s fr o m t h e C r i m in a l Pr o c e d u r e A c t . 10 They were s a y in g t h a t m y d e te c tiv e s d id n o t h a v e 2 0 5 ’s a n d h e n c e t h e y w e r e – b e c a u s e t h e r e p o r ts , a n d it w il l b e c o m e c l e a r l a te r w h y t h e y w o u ld s a y t h a t b e c a u s e t h e in f o r m a ti o n in t h e r e p o r ts c o n t a i n e d i n f o r m a t io n t h a t c o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n a c q u ir e d fr o m t h e b a n k s b y m e a n s , e it h e r fr o m a 205 or u n l a w f u lly b u t th e y were saying we a c q u ir e d – or my in v e s t i g a t o r s a c q u ir e d i t u n l a w fu lly. I s e e t h a t i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 7 o n e o f th e a d v o c a t e s t h a t y o u s a y w e r e p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g th a t y o u t a lk e d a b o u t j u s t n o w i s w r i t t e n a s A d v o c a te S t ix M a d la la , I th in k i t ’s M d l a d la . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 M d l a d la , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d b e M d la d l a , I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r i f h e w r i te s it w i t h o u t a n h b u t i f h e w r i te s i t w i t h a n h t h e n i t w o u l d b e M d l h a l h a , b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n is h o w i t’s w r i t t e n b u t i t ’s n o t M a d l a la , i t m u s t b e M d l a d l a . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u f o r th e c o r r e c t io n C h a ir. Page 109 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir I n o t e t h e ti m e , a n d I h a v e b e e n i n fo r m e d t h a t it m a y b e p r u d e n t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) CHAIRPERSON: O h y e s , w e n e e d t o t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t , i t ’s a lr e a d y f iv e p a s t o n e , a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o . W e a d jo u r n ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. Ms September you may proceed. 10 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. General B o o y s e n y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t th e r e i s a c e r t a i n c o r r e c ti o n t h a t y o u n e e d t o m a k e in r e l a t i o n t o e v id e n c e th a t y o u h a d g i v e n e a r l ie r o n t h e Soobramoney Report. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t i s r i g h t C h a ir i t r e l a t e s to t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e l o n g e r v e r s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e C h a ir a s k e d m e i f 20 t h a t r e p o r t w a s d ir e c t e d a t m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h ic h I c o n fi r m e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : A l th o u g h I a m n o t a hundred percent sure whether it was written for me. Page 110 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O r w r i t te n fo r D r a m a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B u t b e th a t a s i t m a y I o n ly o b t a i n e d t h a t r e p o r t a t a m u c h l a t e r s t a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Fr o m – from S o o b r a m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l o n g a ft e r i t h a d b e e n w r it t e n ? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y w h ic h m a k e s y o u t h i n k i t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n prepared with you in mind? It might have been prepared for somebody e ls e a n d t h e n th a t is w h y y o u g o t i t m u c h l a te r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I am not sure. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I w il l h a v e to s p e c u l a te C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 20 I d i d s a y e a r li e r o n i t w a s d ir e c t e d a t m e b u t I a m n o t a h u n d r e d p e r c e n t s u r e w h e th e r it w a s f o r m e o r fo r D r a m a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e l l w h e n I a s k e d y o u t h e q u e s ti o n I w a s a s k i n g y o u p r e c is e l y b e c a u s e o f t h a t b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n d i t m a y h a v e b e e n a m is t a k e n u n d e r s ta n d i n g b e c a u s e o f h o w s o m e o f th e e v e n t s a r e d e a l t w it h i n t h e n e w a ffi d a v i t . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t i t Page 111 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 – b e c a u s e o f t h e r o l e t h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to p l a y a t a f o r m a l o r o ffic i a l l e v e l a f te r y o u r d is c u s s i o n w i th G e n e r a l D r a m a t i n Pr e t o r i a th a t it m a y b e th e r e p o r t w a s m e a n t f o r G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d y o u w e r e j u s t b e i n g g iv e n i t a t a – o n a n u n o ff ic ia l b a s i s . T h a t is w h a t I w a s t h i n k i n g and you are not sure? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I am not a hundred p e r c e n t s u r e o f t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 10 I f I m a y t h e n – i f w e c o u ld g o b a c k t o w h e r e y o u e n d e d o ff ju s t b e f o r e t h e l o n g a d jo u r n m e n t. Yo u w e r e s p e a k in g a b o u t a S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a t h a t w a s s o u g h t i n r e l a ti o n t o i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s r e q u ir e d to b e o b t a in e d . Can you p l e a s e i n v e r y s i m p l e te r m s e x p l a i n to t h e p u b l ic a t l a r g e e x a c tl y w h a t is a S e c t i o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir a S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a is w h ic h w e a c q u ir e n o r m a ll y. I f – a n d I th i n k i t is o r ig i n a lly w r i t t e n fo r r e c a l c i tr a n t w i t n e s s e s w h o d o n o t w a n t t o t e s t if y s o b a s ic a l ly t h a t S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a m e a n s y o u s u b p o e n a a p e r s o n to c o m e a n d a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s to a p r o s e c u to r i n a c o u r t o f l a w. 20 B u t n o r m a l ly w e a ls o u s e t h e s a m e S e c t io n 2 0 5 t o a c q u i r e b a n k s ta t e m e n t a n d a l s o t e l e p h o n e r e c o r d s a n d w h a te v e r r e c o r d s w e m i g h t n e e d to le g i t i m is e t h e i n s ti t u ti o n h a n d i n g o v e r th o s e d o c u m e n ts o r fi l e s t o u s w e h a v e t o o b t a i n a S e c ti o n 2 0 5 c e r t if ic a te – s u b p o e n a in t e r m s o f T h e C r i mi n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . A n d th a t Page 112 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 is i n f a c t th e p r o c e d u r e t h a t w a s fo ll o w e d in o r d e r t o a c c e s s Mr To s h a n P a n d a y ’s b a n k a c c o u n ts in r e l a ti o n to t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a g a i n s t h i m ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w fo r t h e e v id e n c e g o i n g f o r w a r d I a m g o in g t o a s k y o u t o j u s t b e a r w it h m e I a m g o i n g to h o p a r o u n d a b i t i n t h e a ffi d a v i t i ts e l f w i th n o d is tu r b a n c e t o t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts o r t h e t i m e li n e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. I f I c a n t a k e y o u t o p a g e 10 1 0 p a r a g r a p h 3 2 p le a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u s t t o s u m m a r is e t o s e e w h e r e w e a r e . Yo u g o t a r e p o r t fr o m Br ig a d i e r K e m p w h i c h h e i n t e n d e d t o g iv e t o y o u a n d t o t h e p r o v i n c i a l c o m m i s s i o n e r b u t y o u to o k t h e o n e t h a t w a s m e a n t f o r t h e p r o v i n c i a l c o m m i s s io n e r b e f o r e s h e a r r iv e d a n d y o u s u b s e q u e n tl y in s t r u c t e d i s i t B r i g a d ie r L a te g a n t o in v e s t ig a t e a f t e r y o u h a d h a d a lo o k a t th is r e p o r t t h a t y o u g o t fr o m B r ig a d ie r K e m p . A n d S o o b r a m o n e y a n d K e m p w e r e t o a s s i s t L a te g a n , is th a t c o r r e c t o r o n l y S o o b r a m o n e y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : No Soobramoney – it w a s S o o b r a m o n e y a n d Va n L o g g e n b e r g . 20 S o o b r a m o n e y w a s t h e le a d in v e s t i g a t o r th a t s t a g e . CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y. Okay so Lategan was not the – the lead in v e s t i g a t o r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHA N WESSEL BOOYSEN : N o h e w a s n o t C h a ir Soobramoney was. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b u t h e r e m a i n e d p a r t o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t e a m o r Page 113 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n o t r e a l ly ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir h e w a s – h e was C o m m e r c ia l a c t u a ll y th e d ir e c t commander of th e Crime I n v e s ti g a t i o n s s o h e w a s – h e r e p o r t e d t o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So I did not at – it w a s l ik e f o l l o w in g t h e p r o t o c o l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, o k a y, o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is what you did and then they began to in v e s t i g a t e a n d a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e w h i le y o u w e r e d r i v i n g y o u g o t a c a ll fr o m t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r w h o w a s q u i t e u p s e t a n d d i d n o t g i v e y o u m u c h t i m e t o r e s p o n d t o w h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g b u t e ff e c t i v e ly s h e w a n t e d y o u t o s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n r e l a ti n g to t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t y o u h a d a s k e d L a t e g a n a n d t h e p e o p le u n d e r h i m t o i n v e s ti g a te . A n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n t ly y o u g o t o r y o u t o l d L a te g a n t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s h o u l d s t o p b e c a u s e th a t i s w h a t y o u h a d b e e n to l d b u t in y o u r o w n m i n d y o u w a n te d m o r e t i m e t o t h i n k a b o u t h o w t o h a n d le t h e s i t u a t io n . A n d t h e n – a n d t h e r e a f t e r th e f il e w a s r e tu r n e d t o y o u b y L a te g a n a n d a 20 w e e k o r t w o a f t e r t h a t y o u g o t a n o th e r c a ll f r o m t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, is t h a t r ig h t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d th a t is w h e n y o u w e r e o r o n t h a t o c c a s i o n s h e a s k e d w h e t h e r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s s t il l g o i n g o n o r th a t is w h a t s h e t a lk e d a b o u t . Page 114 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : t h a t is r ig h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u to l d h e r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d b e e n s t o p p e d a n d t h e n a f te r t h a t y o u – a w e e k o r t w o l a te r y o u g o t a c a ll y o u w e r e a s k e d t o c o m e to h e r o ff ic e t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s o ff ic e , is that right? And that is wh ere you found that she took you to the b o a r d r o o m a n d th e r e w e r e s o m e p e o p l e th e r e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir th e r e is ju s t something that I think … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u m is s e d o u t. CHAIRPERSON : I have missed out yes. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t is th e – th a t is t h e o n e m e e ti n g t h a t s h e h a d w i t h K e m p , M a d h o e , N ta n j a n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : M a s i m o l o a n d my s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t i s t h e o n e I w a n t to t a lk – I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t . Is i t b e f o r e w h e r e I a m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t m e e t in g . But it was after the s e c o n d c a ll fr o m t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : T h a t is r i g h t C h a ir, that is right. CHAIRPERSON : m e e ti n g ? Ye s , y e s , y e s . A n d t h e n – o h th a t w a s th e f ir s t A n d t h e n l a te r o n th e r e w a s a n o t h e r m e e ti n g . Page 115 of 212 Yo u w e r e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 c a l l e d t o h e r o ff ic e a n d fr o m h e r o ff ic e y o u w e n t i n t o h e r b o a r d – th e b o a r d r o o m w i t h h e r. B e f o r e y o u g o t in t o th e b o a r d r o o m s h e a s k e d w h e t h e r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d s t o p p e d . Yo u a s s u r e d h e r i t h a d s to p p e d . T h a t i s w h e n y o u m e t P a n d a y, h is a t t o r n e y a n d A d v o c a te M k e z a a n d y o u t o ld u s w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h a t o c c a s io n . w e n t a w a y. A f t e r t h e m e e ti n g y o u S o m e t i m e l a te r y o u w e r e c a ll e d a n d th e r e w a s a s i m il a r m e e ti n g . Yo u w e r e c a ll e d t o h e r o ffic e , s h e t o o k y o u t o t h e b o a r d r o o m . T h e r e w a s a s i m il a r m e e ti n g b u t t h e p a r ti c ip a n t s n o w w e r e P a n d a y, h is a tt o r n e y a n d t w o a d v o c a t e s w h o h a d n o t a t te n d e d th e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g 10 a n d A d v o c a t e Mk e z a w h o h a d a t t e n d e d t h e p r e v i o u s m e e t i n g w a s n o lo n g e r th e r e . So the advocates now were Advocate Chaudhary and A d v o c a t e S t ic k s M d l a l a . A n d y o u h a v e to l d u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d th e a r g u m e n t t h a t y o u h a d w i th M r P a n d a y ’s a t t o r n e y. Th a t is h o w f a r y o u told us so far? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. F o l lo w i n g t h e la s t m e e t i n g th a t t h e C h a ir h a s ju s t e l u d e d t o w h e r e y o u h a d a n e x c h a n g e o f w o r d s w i t h Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d d i d y o u ta k e a n y fu r t h e r 20 s t e p s s u b s e q u e n t to t h a t s p e c i fic t o Ta s h a G iy a p e r s a d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d id C h a ir. B e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d s o m e o f t h e i n v e s t ig a to r s t h a t w o r k e d w i th m e I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c t l y w h o d r a ft e d t h e l e tt e r b u t w e d i d r e p o r t h e r c o n d u c t t o t h e L a w S o c i e t y a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON : A n d d id a n y t h in g c o m e o u t o f th a t o r y o u c a n n o t Page 116 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 remember? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Chair – C h a ir s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t s h e d i d s o m e t h i n g e ls e w h i c h I p e r h a p s s e q u e n ti a l ly t a lk a b o u t l a te r o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : W h ic h w a s a l s o r e p o r t e d to t h e L a w S o c i e ty a n d i t i s n o w a c o u p l e o f y e a r s a g o I w a s in f o r m e d a b o u t a m o n t h a g o t o c o m e a n d t e s ti fy i n D u r b a n . Tw o d a y s b e f o r e I h a d t o g o t o t h a t h e a r in g I w a s t o l d n o t h e y h a v e r e m a n d e d i t 10 in d e f i n i t e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Because of the new C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c h a n g e s to t h e L a w S o c i e t y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Okay and nothing happened after that? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : N o th i n g h a p p e n e d a ft e r t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m o k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 20 I f I c a n th e n ta k e y o u t o p a g e 1 0 , p a r a g r a p h 3 2 o f y o u r m a i n a ff i d a v i t . a ffi d a v i t of c o m m i s s io n e r an engagement General Bheke that you Cele, can M e n ti o n is m a d e in y o u r had you with n a ti o n a l please p o l ic e inform t h is c o m m i s s io n a b o u t t h a t e n g a g e m e n t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir a t t h e ti m e th e current Mi n i s te r of P o lic e Mr Bheke Page 117 of 212 Cele was the National 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o lic e . I received a phone call from him and he e n q u ir e d f r o m m e a s t o t h e in t e r f e r e n c e t h a t I w a s e x p e r i e n c i n g w i t h t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n . S o I b r ie f ly t o l d h i m b u t I d i d n o t g o i n to a n y d e t a i l b e c a u s e w e w e r e s ti ll b u s y w i th t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n a n d h e s a id t o m e t h a t I s h o u l d n o t e n t e r ta i n a n y in t e r f e r e n c e a n d t h a t I s h o u ld c o n t in u e w i t h t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d h e a ls o s a i d th a t t h e r e p o r t in g l in e s s h o u l d b e th e w a y it i s d e f in e d in t h e p o l ic e s tr u c t u r e s a n d th a t t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r should report to me. I suspect that General Dramat perhaps had b r o u g h t th a t t o h i s a t te n ti o n t h a t t h e r e m i g h t b e i n t e r f e r e n c e . A n d th a t 10 – t h a t p h o n e c a l l g a v e m e a lo t o f r e a s s u r a n c e t h a t I c a n – w e c a n c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n u n a b a te d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e e ffe c t o f w h a t – o f w h a t G e n e r a l C e l e w a s s a y in g t o y o u w a s t h a t o n e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h o u l d c o n ti n u e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t w a s th e o n e th a t th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r h a d s a i d s h o u l d s to p ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s t h e s a m e . CHAIRPERSON : So you stopped? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 20 Th a t is t h e s a m e in v e s t i g a t io n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s s h o u ld report to you? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d n o t to t h e N a t io n a l o ffic e . N o t t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t? Page 118 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t – th a t w a s w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : I s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t w h a t h e w a s s a y in g i n t e r m s o f t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s r e p o r ti n g t o y o u a n d n o t t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t h e w a s i n s is ti n g th a t t h e r e p o r t i n g l in e s b e the way they are supposed to be? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : That was the i m p r e s s io n I g a i n e d C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : paragraph 33. Tu r n i n g o v e r to p a g e 11 D id M r To s h a n P a n d a y c h a l le n g e t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a ’s t h a t w e r e s o u g h t a g a in s t h i m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry and I know Ms September that you said s o m e p a r ts o f th e s t a t e m e n t a r e n o t w h e r e th e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r w h a t y o u a r e a s k in g h i m a b o u t i s a w a y fr o m w h a t h e m a y h a v e d o n e s u b s e q u e n t t o r e c e i v in g t h e s e in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m 20 C o m m i s s i o n e r – fr o m G e n e r a l C e le w h e t h e r w h a t G e n e r a l C e l e s a i d s h o u l d h a p p e n w a s e ffe c te d – i m p l e m e n t e d ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I l e a v e i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m s a y i n g I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u a r e m o v i n g a w a y f r o m t h a t b e c a u s e I w o u ld li k e t o k n o w th a t w h e t h e r a s a r e s u l t o f m a y b e l e t m e a s k h i m . A s a r e s u lt o f o r s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e i n s tr u c ti o n Page 119 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 fr o m G e n e r a l C e l e w a s h e – w e r e h is i n s t r u c t io n s t h e n i m p l e m e n t e d i n t e r m s o f 1 . T h e c o n t in u a ti o n o f th e in v e s ti g a ti o n . 2 . T h e r e p o r t in g li n e s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir the in v e s t i g a t io n b a r th e w e e k o r s o t h a t t h e fi le w a s ly in g o n m y t a b l e a n d in c o g n is a n t o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s w e r e s t il l c o n t i n u in g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n n e v e r r e a l ly s t o p p e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d n e v e r s t o p p e d ja . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Never stopped. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : But what did change w a s t h e r e p o r ti n g – t h e r e p o r ti n g li n e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : were fo r just to get the pressure o ff me But as I said those fr o m the Provincial C o m m i s s i o n e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t th e y r e p o r t e d t o B r i g a d ie r N k o s i . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : A n d th e i n s tr u c t io n fr o m M r B h e k i C e l e a t t h e ti m e w h o w a s t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r n u m b e r 1 t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n m u s t c o n t i n u e t h a t I s h o u l d n o t e n t e r ta i n a n y i n t e r fe r e n c e a n d n u m b e r 2 t h a t w e s h o u l d a d h e r e t o t h e r e p o r ti n g li n e s w i th in t h e p o l ic e . Page 120 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n th a t in s ta n c e d u r i n g t h e c o n ti n u i n g in v e s ti g a t io n d i d To s h a n P a n d a y c h a l le n g e t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a ’s a t a ll ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Ye s C h a ir a t s o m e ju n c t u r e d u r in g th e i n v e s t i g a t io n o b v i o u s ly th a t w a s a f te r t h e is s u e a b o u t t h e S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s h a d c o m e u p h e c h a l le n g e d t h e v a l i d i ty o f t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a ’s i n t h e h ig h c o u r t i n K w a Z u l u N a t a l . W e o b v i o u s l y b e tw e e n m y s e lf a n d th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r s w e 10 o p p o s e d i t i n th e h i g h c o u r t a n d t h e c o u r t r u l e d i n o u r f a v o u r t h a t t h e S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w e r e le g it i m a t e ly a c q u ir e d . U p o n t h e i n i ti a lly fi le d n o t ic e o f i n t e n t io n to a p p e a l b u t h e n e v e r p r o s e c u t e d t h e a p p e a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r th e i n s tr u c ti o n y o u g o t fr o m G e n e r a l C e l e s a y i n g t h e – a b o u t r e p o r t i n g l in e s a n d t h e c o n ti n u a ti o n o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n d i d y o u s p e a k t o t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r t o s a y I h a v e a c tu a l ly r e c e i v e d a n i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f th e P o li c e t o s a y t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n m u s t c o n t in u e o r d i d y o u t a lk t o h e r a b o u t i t n o w a t a ll ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o I d id n o t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I did not. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u l d t h e n t a k e y o u to p a g e 12 paragraph 41. D i d th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e s u l t i n a n y s e a r c h w a r r a n t s b e i n g o b t a in e d a n d i f s o a g a i n s t w h o m ? Page 121 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a i r t h a t is i n d e e d s o . S o w h a t h a p p e n e d is a s a r e s u l t o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n a c q u ir e d v ia th e S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s w e r e i n a p o s i ti o n t o o b t a in – t o a p p ly f o r s e a r c h w a r r a n t s f o r th e r e s id e n c e s o f To s h a n P a n d a y, t h e b u s i n e s s m a n , C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e , C a p t a i n A s w i n N a r a i n p e r s a d a n d a ls o f o r t h e P r o v i n c ia l h e a d q u a r t e r s i n w h ic h I w a s b a s e d n a m e ly f o r t h e fi n a n c i a l d e p a r t m e n t , f o r t h e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a n d f o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e d e p lo y m e n t o f p o li c e o ff ic e r s f o r in s t a n c e in th e W o r l d C u p s o c c e r. 10 T h o s e s e a r c h w a r r a n ts w e r e o b t a i n e d a n d I r e a li s e d t h a t i f w e w e r e g o i n g to e x e c u t e t h o s e w a r r a n t s w i t h t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d t h e b u i ld i n g th a t – t h a t a l l h e ll m i g h t b r e a k l o s e s o I – w e – w e d e v i s e d a s tr a te g y a n d C h a ir it w a s v e r y d i ffi c u l t w i t h t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n b e c a u s e in f o r m a ti o n k e p t o n l e a k in g o u t . N o m a t t e r w h a t p r e c a u t io n s w e t r i e d to t a k e . S o I i n s tr u c t e d t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s t o a s s e m b l e a te a m b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d to d o a ll t h e p r e m is e s s i m u l ta n e o u s ly. B e c a u s e o n c e y o u s t a r t w i t h o n e b y th e t i m e y o u g e t t o t h e l a s t o n e a ll t h e in c r i m i n a t in g e v i d e n c e h a d b e e n d is p o s e d o f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I j u s t i n te r r u p t y o u a n d a s k y o u t o c l a r i fy w h ic h p r e m is e s w e r e t h e n b e i n g t a r g e t e d fo r s e a r c h a n d seizure? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o i t w a s t h e b u s in e s s p r e m is e s o f To s h a n P a n d a y, h i s r e s id e n c e – h is – w h e r e h e l iv e d . Th e r e s id e n c e o f M a d h o e , t h e r e s i d e n c e o f N a r a i n Pr a s a d a n d a ls o th e ir Page 122 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o ffic e s . B u t a s I s a i d C h a i r a ls o th e f in a n c i a l d e p a r t m e n t w h e r e w e w a n t e d t o s e iz e d o c u m e n ts a n d a l s o a t t h e O R S t h a t w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e d e p l o y m e n t o f p o l ic e o ffi c e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u h a d o b t a i n e d s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n ts , i s t h a t r ig h t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : I n r e s p e c t o f t h e p e o p l e a n d th e p r e m is e s th a t y o u have talked about? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Can you please explain then t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s o f h o w th o s e s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e w a r r a n t s w e r e e x e c u te d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir a s I s a i d th a t I w a s a b i t c o n c e r n e d t h a t i f th is w h o le t e a m d e s c e n d e d u p o n P r o v i n c i a l h e a d q u a r t e r s a n d s t a r t e d s e a r c h i n g t h e o ffic e s i t – t h e r e m ig h t b e a s m a ll li t tl e n u c l e a r e x p l o s i o n i n th e b u il d in g s o w e d e v i s e d th is p l a n a n d w h a t w e d id i s w e a s s e m b l e d a g r o u p o f d e t e c ti v e s fr o m t h e D P C I a n d I i n s tr u c t e d th e in v e s t i g a t o r s n o t e v e n t o t e ll t h e m w h a t w a s g o i n g 20 t o b e s e a r c h e d t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y. T h e y a s s e m b le d th e n i g h t b e f o r e a n d w e t a r g e t e d a s p e c if ic d a y o n w h ic h t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r w a n t e d m e to a c c o m p a n y h e r t o a p a r li a m e n ta r y l e k g o t la . S o t h e p l a n was… C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e p r o v i n c i a l le g is l a tu r e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Page 123 of 212 The provincial one 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So the plan was that I w o u ld a c c o m p a n y h e r t h e f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g a n d o n e n t e r i n g t h e b u il d in g I w o u l d g e t w in d o f t h e s t o r y t h a t t h e o ffi c e s a r e b e i n g s e a r c h e d b u t t h a t w a s a p l a n th a t w e h a d d e c i d e d u p o n b e f o r e h a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u – t h e p l a n w a s t h a t a s y o u w e r e e n t e r in g t h e b u il d in g o f t h e p r o v in c i a l le g i s l a tu r e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . 10 CHAIRPERSON : That is when you would so to speak get the wind of t h e o ffi c e s b e i n g s e a r c h e d t h a t w a s t h e p l a n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t w a s t h e – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So I would then inform h e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d I k n e w b y th e n i t w o u ld b e to o l a te b e c a u s e s h e c a n n o t te ll t h e p o l i tic i a n s I a m g o i n g 20 n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : I have better things to do. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o w h a t h a p p e n e d is Page 124 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e n ig h t b e fo r e i n s p i t e o f t h e f a c t t h a t I t o l d t h e g u y s n o t t o t e l l t h e m w h o w e a r e g o i n g t o s e a r c h , w h o s e r e s i d e n c e s w e g o in g to s e a r c h th e f o ll o w i n g d a y t h e y a s s e m b l e d th e fo ll o w i n g m o r n i n g a t s ix o ’ c l o c k . T h e y w a i te d f o r m e t o g iv e t h e m t h e … CHAIRPERSON : An instruction? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : The sign that we are a b o u t t o e n t e r th e L e k g o tl a a n d t h a t is w h e n t h e y s t a r te d w i t h t h e s e a r c h . I t h e n in f o r m e d th e P C t h a t th e r e w a s a s e a r c h u n d e r w a y b u t b y th e n w e w e r e b o t h b o g g e d d o w n w i th t h e p o l i tic i a n s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : S o s h e c o u ld n o t d o a n y th in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : But in spite of the fact t h a t w e tr ie d t o k e e p i t s e c r e t s o m e h o w a n d I h a d in s t r u c t e d t h e n i g h t before that they do not tell the searchers who was going to searched a n d in s p i t e o f t h a t th e y t o ld h i m a lt h o u g h th e p e o p le w e r e s e le c t e d . T h e f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g i t w a s c le a r t h a t a t l e a s t M r To s h a n P a n d a y h a d b e e n a l e r t e d th a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a s e a r c h e x e c u t e d o n h is 20 p r e m is e s . In a n y e v e n t C h a i r a ll t h o s e p r e m is e s w e r e s e a r c h e d . W h e n t h e y c a m e t o P a n d a y ’s p r e m is e s h e w a s n o w h e r e to b e f o u n d a t h is r e s id e n c e . T h e y t h e n p h o n e d h i m a n d h e s a i d t o th e m n o h e w a s i n N e w c a s t le . C h a ir N e w c a s tl e i s p r o b a b ly a b o u t t h r e e a n d a h a l f to f o u r h o u r s ’ d r i v e fr o m U m h l a n g a R o c k s . W h e n t h e i n v e s t ig a to r s i n d ic a te d t o h i m t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g to w a i t t h e r e f o r h i m h e a r r iv e d th e r e a b o u t a Page 125 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 h a l f a n h o u r la t e r. S o h e m u s t h a v e b e e n i n t h e v ic in i ty a n d t h a t i s w h y w e s u s p e c t h e g o t w in d o f – w e l l s o m e o n e m u s t h a v e i n f o r m e d h i m t h a t w e w e r e g o in g t o d o t h o s e s e a r c h e s . B u t b e t h a t a s it m a y C h a ir a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts w e r e s e i z e d fr o m t h e r e s p e c t iv e p r e m i s e s , f il e s , d o c u m e n ts a n d c o m p u t e r f il e s w e r e c o n fi s c a t e d fr o m S A P S , f r o m t h e v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts b u t o n e o f t h e c o n c e r n i n g m a t t e r s w a s th a t t h e r e p o r t t h a t Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y g a v e m e , th e – t h a t i s n o w t h e fir s t o n e w h ic h I h a d g iv e n t o th e P C . S h e h a d a s k e d m e f o r t h e c o p y a n d I h a d a l s o g iv e n a c o p y to N t a n j a n a . Th a t s a m e d o c u m e n t w a s f o u n d o n 10 t h e – a t t h e p r e m is e s o f C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e o f t h e s u s p e c ts ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : One of the suspects C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : B u t C h a ir a s I s a i d e a r l ie r o n I w a s – S o o b r a m o n e y h a d g iv e n m e t h e CHAIRPERSON : The reports? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : H e w a s n o t g o i n g to g iv e i t to t h e s u s p e c ts . I m o s t c e r t a i n l y d i d n o t g i v e it t o t h e s u s p e c t s . T h e o n ly t w o p e o p le I g a v e it t o w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : N t a n j a n a a n d th e Pr o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : C o m m i s s i o n e r t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 126 of 212 A n d t h e P r o v i n c ia l 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN : I then f ir s t I a p p r o a c h e d t h e – N t a n ja n a a n d h e a s s u r e d m e t h a t h e h a d n o t h i n g to d o w it h i t a n d e v e n s h o w e d t h e c o p y t h a t h e s t il l h a d . I t h e n w e n t to t h e P C a n d I s a id t o h e r lo o k t h i s i s w h a t t r a n s p i r e d a n d I fe e l v e r y u n h a p p y a b o u t i t . A n d s h e w a s v e r y d is m i s s iv e a n d s h e s a i d a g a n y o n e c o u l d h a v e g iv e n i t to t h e m a n d s h e ju s t li k e d is m is s e d m e a s i f … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a s if t h i s w a s n o t h i n g s e r io u s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n t h a t r e g a r d c a n I q u ic k l y t a k e y o u t o s o f t f il e Ex h ib i t Z E . A n d i n p a r t ic u la r J B 1 . 1 w h ic h is – s t a r ts a t p a g e 5 . Is t h i s in fa c t th e r e p o r t t h a t y o u w e r e n o w r e f e r r in g t o i n y o u r evidence? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Th a t is th e r e p o r t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B y t h e w a y i s th a t t h e fir s t r e p o r t t h e o n e that you got from Soobramoney? 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. T h a t is – t h a t is t h e r e p o r t a c o p y o f w h i c h w a s f o u n d a t o n e o f th e s u s p e c t’s p r e m is e s , r e s id e n c e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o m e i m p o r ta n t fa c ts t h a t w e r e Page 127 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 in v e s t i g a t e d o b ta i n e d th r o u g h i n v e s ti g a ti o n is r e f e r r e d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 t o p a r a g r a p h 7 o f t h a t r e p o r t. A t p a g e 1 0 o f t h a t s a m e b u n d le . Some important f a c ts that were in v e s ti g a te d o b t a in e d th r o u g h in v e s t i g a t io n i s r e fe r r e d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 t o p a r a g r a p h 7 o f t h a t r e p o r t . A t p a g e 1 0 o f t h a t s a m e b u n d le . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e q u e s ti o n ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e w e r e c e r ta in f a c ts t h a t w e r e d is c o v e r e d t h r o u g h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h i c h w e n t t o t h e g r a v i ty o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i ts e l f . C a n I a s k y o u t o p l e a s e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 t o 7 10 to read that into the record? CHAIRPERSON : W e ll h e m ig h t n o t n e e d t o r e a d b u t j u s t to s a y i f h e k n o w s b u t i f h e d o e s n o t k n o w h e c a n r e a d it to s i m p ly s a y s o m e o f th e n e w f a c ts t h a t w e r e – t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o a r e t h e f o ll o w i n g 1 , 2 , 3 ,4 b u t i f h e d o e s n o t k n o w th e n h e c a n – h e c a n r e a d . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e s e fa c ts S ir ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir a s I s a i d e a r l ie r on this second report A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 20 T h is – th is a p p e a r s t o b e th e fir s t r e p o r t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Sorry? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th is is t h e f ir s t r e p o r t . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d a s w e ll . Page 128 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e p r o c e e d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y s o C h a ir w h a t is c o n ta in e d i n th is – i n t h i s r e p o r t I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e d e t a il . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : But I was aware of t h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u w e r e a w a r e o f i t . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e t h e n p l a c e t h i s detail on record by reading in paragraphs 2 to 7? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : In paragraph 2 “ Mr To s h a n P a n d a y o w in g t o t h e v a s t a m o u n t s o f p r o fi t g e n e r a t e d f r o m h is d e a li n g s w i t h t h e S A P m a n a g e d t o p u r c h a s e a 2 0 0 9 m o d e l F e r r a r i C a li f o r n i a a t a p u r c h a s e p r ic e o f R 2 m il li o n R 2 . 5 m il li o n . He paid a d e p o s it o f R 5 1 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 th e p u r c h a s e o f h is c a r w a s d o n e i n t h e f ir s t w e e k o f M a y 2 0 1 0 . A b r i e f p e r u s a l o f th e N e d b a n k b a n k s ta t e m e n ts o f Gold 20 Coast a c ti v i ti e s . Tr a d i n g obtained v ia S e c ti o n 205 reve als s t a r t li n g Th e b a n k a c c o u n t w a s o p e n e d i n 2 0 0 7 b u t t h e r e q u e s t f o r t h e s ta t e m e n ts fr o m J a n u a r y 2 0 0 9 t o 1 7 M a y w a s d o n e . Th e a c t iv i t y b e t w e e n J a n u a r y 2 0 0 9 t o O c to b e r 2 0 0 9 s h o w s t h a t G o ld C o a s t Tr a d i n g w a s a c t u a l ly s tr u g g li n g f i n a n c ia ll y w i t h s e v e r a l c h e q u e s r e tu r n e d u n p a id o r d e l i b e r a t e l y c a n c e l l e d b y t h e d r a w e r. H o w e v e r fr o m th e f ir s t p a y m e n t r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e S A P o n 2 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 th e fi n a n c i a l Page 129 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 w o e s o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g c a m e t o a n a b r u p t e n d . It a p p e a r s s o p r o f i ta b le t h a t fr o m t h e 2 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 t o th e 2 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9 t h e S A P p a id R 2 .7 5 0 4 3 m il li o n i n t o t h e a c c o u n t o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g . T h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n fo r d u r i n g t h i s p e r i o d fr o m t h e N e d b a n k a c c o u n t t o t a ll e d R 4 7 5 1 8 8 , 0 0 . O n th e 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 0 t h e S A P p a id t h e t o ta l i n o n e p a y m e n t o f R 1 3 0 3 4 6 0 th a t m u s t b e m il li o n i n t o th e a c c o u n t o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g C C . O n th e 1 M a r c h o f 2 0 1 0 th e S A P p a id a t o ta l i n one payment of… C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u m e n t io n th a t f i g u r e 10 t h e r e ? I t h i n k it is 1 8 9 4 o r i s i t 1 8 m il li o n ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Hm. CHAIRPERSON : Number 5. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir t h e n u m b e r t h a t h e s o u g h t to c la r i fy a t p a r a g r a p h . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Appears to be 1 303 460. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And the number at paragraph 5 if I a m r e a d in g c o r r e c t ly i s 1 8 9 4 . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : 200. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Thank you Then paragraph 6. “ O n 2 8 A p r i l 2 0 1 0 t h e S A P m a d e t w o p a y m e n ts i n t o Page 130 of 212 C h a ir. 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e a c c o u n t o f G o a l C o a s t Tr a d i n g f o r R 5 m il li o n a n d R 5 3 6 7 8 0 r e s p e c t iv e ly. O n 11 M a y 2 0 1 0 t h e S A P m a d e t w o p a y m e n t s o f R 1 7 9 5 m i lli o n a n d R 1 0 8 0 0 0 r e s p e c t iv e l y i n to t h e a c c o u n t o f G o ld C o a s t Tr a d i n g . T h e b a c k s t a te m e n ts h a v e to b e a n a ly s e d i n o r d e r t o tr a c e a l l t h e f u n d s r e c e iv e d a n d t r a n s f e r s a r e p a id o u t a s th e r e a p p e a r s to b e a g r e a t d e a l o f a c ti v i ty o n t h e a c c o u n t . A t t h is s t a g e t h e o n ly i n c o m e i n t o t h e a c c o u n t o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g C C h a s b e e n r e c e i v e d fr o m S A P S . A ll o th e r 10 accounts of G o ld Coast Tr a d i n g the personal a c c o u n t s o f To s h a n P a n d a y a n d h i s s p o u s e h a v e t o b e o b t a in e d a n d f u r t h e r a n a ly s e d .” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e if i t is , i f i t w a s s t a te d c o r r e c tly b u t j u s t t o e r r o n t h e s i d e o f c a u ti o n th e n u m b e r a t p a r a g r a p h 7 , th e f ir s t n u m b e r w h i c h is o n 11 M a y S A P m a d e t w o p a y m e n t s R 1 7 9 5 m i ll io n a n d R 1 0 8 0 0 0 r e s p e c ti v e ly in t o th e a c c o u n t o f G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 That is how I read it C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : Were you concerned about whether we got the – w h e t h e r h e g o t th e n u m b e r c o r r e c t ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e ll i t is w r i t t e n – t h e fir s t o n e o r t h e s e c o n d Page 131 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 one on seven? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e f ir s t o n e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h is o n e m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is R 1 7 9 5 m i lli o n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir CHAIRPERSON : 10 O k a y. T h a t is h o w – t h a t is h o w it l o o k s . W h y is t h e r e a p r o b l e m w i t h th is ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : I am [intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON : What is your leader saying? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t r e fe r e n c e w a s m a d e t o 1 7 9 5 m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON : Oh. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e w it n e s s ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y w e ll I th i n k h e d o e s s a y n o w th a t w h a te v e r 20 h e m a y h a v e s a i d th e a m o u n t i s R 1 7 9 5 m il li o n . Is th a t c o r r e c t s ir ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B R : I f I c a n t h e n ta k e y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 4 7 Page 132 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 w h ic h is o n p a g e 1 4 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t . A p o l o g i e s , y o u r a ffi d a v i t . D u r i n g t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n w e r e a n y m o n i e s p a i d t o Mr To s h a n P a n d a y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir th e in v e s t i g a t o r s i n d ic a t e d to m e t h a t th e t o t a l s u m t h a t a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n fr a u d u l e n t ly p r o c u r e d / a c q u ir e d w a s R 6 0 m i ll io n o f w h i c h R 4 5 m il li o n h a d a lr e a d y b e e n p a i d o u t t o t h e c o m p a n y o f To s h a n P a n d a y a n d th e r e w a s R 5 0 m i ll i o n w h ic h w a s a b o u t to b e p a i d o u t to h i m . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I f I c a n t h e n t a k e y o u to p a g e 1 5 paragraph 48. 10 CHAIRPERSON : I, I know that you did say that you would be jumping a r o u n d i n t h e s ta t e m e n t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t i s a li t tl e fr u s tr a t i n g b e c a u s e o n e is n o t a b l e to f o ll o w e x a c tl y w h a t t h e s to r y i s . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t i s b e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e s o m e t h in g t h a t s a y s th e s e a r e t h e e v e n t s t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o b e f o l l o w in g b e c a u s e i f t h e r e is a s t a te m e n t y o u ju s t lo o k – o n e lo o k s th e r e . I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r y o u w o u l d b e a b l e t o h e l p m e o r n o t b u t t h e j u m p i n g a r o u n d s e e m s t o b e m a k in g i t d i ffi c u l t t o f o l lo w t h e s t o r y. 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e a p p r o a c h o f j u m p in g a r o u n d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Wa s o n t h e d i r e c t i o n o f . Page 133 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. W e l l . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : F a r i d a , b u t h a v i n g s a i d t h a t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. M a y b e y o u m i g h t ju s t – I d o n o t k n o w i f i t w o u ld h e l p ju s t to s a y th e s e a r e t h e e v e n ts t h a t w e w i ll f o l l o w t h e n f r o m t h is e v e n t w e g o to t h i s a n d w e g o t o t h a t. T h a t mi g h t h e l p if I , i f I k n o w, b u t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e t h a t r e a d y. So that might make it d i ff ic u l t . D o th e b e s t t h a t y o u c a n ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A s it p le a s e s . C h a ir if I m a y t h e ti m e li n e th a t w a s p r e p a r e d w h i c h h a s b e e n E X H I B I T D Z . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n f a c t c o n s o li d a te s a l l o f t h e e v e n t s in s e q u e n ti a l o r d e r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: R e le v a n t to t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n a n d t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t s t h a t h a v e b e e n g iv e n . CHAIRPERSON : This? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 So if I could point you in the d ir e c t io n w i t h y o u r l e a v e to t h e th ir d b l o c k o n t h e fa r r i g h t h a n d s i d e . It t a lk s t o d u r i n g t h e in v e s ti g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d it b e m o r e c o n v e n i e n t i f w e g a v e th e s e b lo c k s n u m b e r s ? T h e n y o u c a n s a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : No problem. CHAIRPERSON : Yo u g o t o b l o c k to n u m b e r s o a n d s o t h e n w e a ll Page 134 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 k n o w. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : S o m e b o d y w il l n e e d – I th in k y o u n e e d to e x p l a in w h a t y o u a r e d o in g to t h e w i t n e s s b u t I g u e s s w e w il l m a r k o n e w i t h t h e fir s t o n e t h a t s a y s ti m e li n e P a n d a y i n v e s t i g a t io n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON : A n d th e n w e g o o n t h a t l i n e t o t h e l e f t . Major G e n e r a l B o o y s e n m a y b e y o u – I a m s u r e y o u w i ll b e a b l e to . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : To fo ll o w b e c a u s e w e m i g h t u s e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s t o m a k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N u m b e r s o a n d s o l a te r o n . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir m a y b e I c a n explain what happened here. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W h e n I d r a f te d th e s t a te m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A l o t o f i t c o m e s fr o m 20 r e c o l l e c ti o n a n d m y m e m o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: And in sourcing the d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 135 of 212 So I spent quite a 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p e r i o d o f ti m e p r e p a r in g th e s e s t a te m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d i t is q u i te c o m p r e h e n s iv e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d w h il e y o u a r e d o i n g th e s ta t e m e n t th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s t h a t h a p p e n s s i m u l t a n e o u s ly. CHAIRPERSON : Crop up. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So when I. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 C o n s u l t e d w i th t h e advocate. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S h e s u g g e s t e d th a t w e p u t u p t h is ti m e li n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h ic h is o u r d is p l a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o i n t h e s ta t e m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : The sequence are not e x a c tl y. CHAIRPERSON : The way it should be. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: dates. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 136 of 212 Ac c o r d in g to th e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h e r e a s th e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: This document here g iv e s t h e e x a c t s e q u e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n te r ms o f t i m e li n e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I t h in k p r o b a b l y t h is w i ll h e lp . I t is j u s t th a t I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h e n t h a t i t w o u ld – i t w o u ld f o r m t h e g u i d e o f w h a t w e s t a r t w i t h . S o - b u t I a m j u s t m a r k in g t h e m - t h e b l o c k s o n e , t w o , t h r e e 10 s o th a t y o u c a n s a y w e a r e n o w a t b lo c k w h a t e v e r. T h e n I k n o w w h i c h o n e i t is . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: So to just ensure my n u m b e r i n g i s e x a c tl y t h e s a m e i t w o u l d b e s ix b l o c k s o n t o p . b lo c k Is th a t c o r r e c t C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o it w o u l d b e o n e , tw o – o n e u p t o s i x a n d th e n t h e s e c o n d li n e s ta r t s fr o m s e v e n t o 1 2 . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : In. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e y c o n ti n u e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Would that be in reverse? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e e n d e d u p o n b lo c k 3 0 . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : 3-0? Page 137 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t c o r r e c t ? O k a y, a l r ig h t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w w e c a n p r o c e e d a t le a s t . I w il l – I s h o u l d be able to – yes. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir. So now you are on block 19. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n r e l a t i o n t o t h e R 5 0 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t b e c a u s e w e h a v e c o v e r e d a ll t h e o t h e r b l o c k s b e f o r e th a t? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Correct. In r e l a t i o n t o t h e R 5 0 m il li o n p a y m e n t th a t h a d n o t b e e n m a d e a t t h a t t i m e . D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s i n r e la t io n t o t h e p a y m e n t o f t h o s e m o n i e s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 Ye s C h a ir. What h a p p e n e d is m y s e c r e t a r y t o ld m e t h a t s h e h a d r e c e iv e d a c a ll f r o m a c c o r d i n g t o h e r t h e b r o t h e r o f th e th e n S t a te P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Z u m a who wanted to meet with me. S o I s a i d t o h e r i n c o n n e c ti o n w i th m e a n d s h e d i d n o t k n o w in c o n n e c t io n w i th w h a t . S o I s a id t o h e r w h e r e , w h e r e d o e s – w h e r e d o t h e y w a n t t o m e e t m e a n d s h e s a id k n o w s h e w i ll f in d o u t fr o m t h e m b u t i t s o u n d e d l ik e t h e y w a n t e d t o m e e t m e a w a y Page 138 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 fr o m t h e o ffi c e o r h e w a n te d to m e e t m e a w a y f r o m t h e o ffic e . S o I s a i d t o m y s e c r e t a r y l o o k i f I a m g o i n g to h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h a n y o n e it is g o i n g to h a p p e n in m y o ffic e . S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t s h e t o l d m e th a t t h e r e h a d b e e n a n o t h e r c a ll b u t s h e t h e n t o o k il l a n d s h e w a s a d m i t t e d t o h o s p i t a l a n d I th i n k s h e w a s o ff s i x f o r p r o b a b ly a b o u t a m o n t h o r s o a n d n o s o o n e r h a d s h e r e t u r n e d s h e r e c e iv e d a n o th e r c a l l fr o m w h ic h s h e s a i d w a s th e b r o th e r o f t h e t h e n S t a t e Pr e s id e n t Mr J a c o b Z u m a . S o I s a i d to h e r E l a in e lo o k i f t h e y w a n t t o s e e m e t h e y c a n m a k e a n a p p o i n t m e n t a n d i t h a s g o t c o m e t h r o u g h t h e o ffic e t o m a k e i t 10 le g i t i m a te w h i c h s h e d i d . I d o u n d e r s ta n d th a t s h e d i d r e c o r d t h a t i n h e r d ia r y a s w e l l . I t h i n k i t w a s r o u n d a b o u t th e b e g i n n i n g o f J u n e t h e n . CHAIRPERSON : 2010? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : 2 0 1 0 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S h e s e t d o w n th e m e e ti n g f o r I t h i n k i t w a s t h e fir s t w e e k i n J u n e a n d t h e n t h e g e n tl e m a n a r r iv e d a t m y o ffi c e . A n o t h e r fr i e n d o f m i n e w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e o ff ic e a t t h e t i m e . H e j u s t h a p p e n e d t o d r o p b y th is fr i e n d o f m i n e a n d th e n a g e n tl e m a n c a m e i n a n d i n tr o d u c e d h i m s e l f a s E d w a r d Z u m a w h o I t h e n 20 r e a l is e d w a s n o t t h e b r o t h e r o f th e t h e n S t a t e P r e s i d e n t . It was a c t u a ll y t h e s o n o f t h e t h e n S t a t e P r e s i d e n t, E d w a r d Z u m a . N o w a f t e r w e h a d e x c h a n g e d g r e e t in g s a n d i n c id e n ta lly E d w a r d k n e w t h e fr i e n d o f m i n e w h o h a p p e n e d t o d r o p b y i n m y o ff ic e a n d t h e y j o k e d a b o u t a f e w t h i n g s a n d s o e v e n t u a lly w e g o t d o w n t o b u s in e s s a n d w e s t a r t e d t a lk in g a n d h e s ta r t e d ta lk in g a b o u t t h e R 5 0 m i l li o n w h ic h I h a d fr o z e n Page 139 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a n d t h e n h e a s k e d m e i f it i s p o s s i b le fo r m e t o u n f r e e z e t h e m o n e y. S o I s a i d to h i m b u t w h a t is y o u r i n t e r e s t i n t h is m o n e y. H e s a id t o m e n o h e i s a s il e n t p a r tn e r w i th To s h a n P a n d a y a n d h e is n o t g e t ti n g h i s d iv i d e n d s b e c a u s e I h a d fr o z e n t h e m o n e y. S o I s a i d t o h i m b u t d i d y o u in v e s t in t o t h e b u s in e s s o f To s h a n P a n d a y a n d h e s a i d y e s . I s a i d h o w m u c h d id y o u i n v e s t . H e s a i d n o h e h a d i n v e s t e d R 9 0 0 0 0 0 . S o I s a id t o h i m lo o k l e t m e g iv e y o u s o m e a d v ic e a n d g o a n d a p p r o a c h M r To s h a n P a n d a y a n d te ll h i m y o u w a n t y o u r R 9 0 0 0 0 0 b a c k a n d t a k e y o u r m o n e y a n d w a lk a w a y a n d n e v e r l o o k b a c k a g a i n a n d w e l a u g h e d 10 a n d h e s a id n o t h a t i s w h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o d o a n d I m a d e i t c l e a r to h i m I c a n n o t u n fr e e z e t h e m o n e y b e c a u s e I w il l m a k e m y s e l f c o m p l ic it in th e c o m m i s s io n o f a c r i m e a n d t h a t w il l b e c o r r u p t i o n in it s e l f . U n l e s s i t is – th e r e i s l e g i ti m a t e d o c u m e n t s t o r e l e a s e . I c a n n o t d o t h a t a n d w e s p o k e a w h i l e a b o u t g e n e r a li t i e s a n d a f t e r t h a t h e l e f t. CHAIRPERSON : As the c o n v e r s a ti o n between you and M r E d w a r d Z u m a w a s t a k i n g p l a c e y o u r fr i e n d w a s t h e r e p r e s e n t? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H e w a s p r e s e n t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H a s t h e r e e v e r b e e n a n y is s u e s s i n c e 20 t h a t v is i t b y M r E d w a r d Z u m a a b o u t h i m a tt e n d i n g y o u r o ffic e o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir a c o u p l e o f m o n th s la t e r t h e r e w a s a t r a d i t io n a l o r c u l tu r a l / tr a d it i o n a l e v e n t a t N k a n d la a n d th is v e r y fr i e n d o f m i n e w h o h a p p e n e d to b e i n t h e o ff ic e h e w a s i n v i te d t o t h e c u l t u r a l e v e n t . I g o t a p h o n e c a ll – w e l l fr o m th e Page 140 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 e v e n t b u t I d i d n o t k n o w i t w a s fr o m t h e e v e n t a n d i t w a s t h i s fr i e n d o f m i n e a n d h e s a i d t o m e h o ld o n s o m e o n e w a n ts t o s p e a k t o y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s i t fr o m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g o t a c a ll fr o m s o m e b o d y. W h o w a s th a t ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Fr o m t h e s a m e fr i e n d of mine. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W h o w a s in m y o ff ic e o n t h e d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: When Edward Zuma v is it e d m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o i t w a s a c o u p le o f w e e k s la t e r i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a m o n t h o r t w o l a t e r. I r e c e i v e d t h is c a l l . H e s a id t o m e I h e r e a t N k a n d l a w h e r e I a m a t t e n d in g t h i s c u l t u r a l event. 20 S o h e s a i d h o ld o n s o m e o n e w a n ts to s p e a k t o y o u . So he h a n d e d th e p h o n e t o s o m e o n e e ls e a n d it w a s E d w a r d Z u m a a n d h e s a i d h e l lo B o o y s e n a n d w e l a u g h e d a n d jo k e d a n d I s a id I h o p e y o u heeded my advice and he laughed and he said no, no I heeded your a d v ic e . S o w e j o k e d a n d l a u g h e d a b o u t i t b u t i t b e c a m e c le a r a ft e r w a r d s h e n e v e r h e e d e d my a d v i c e a n d t h e n w e s a i d g o o d b y e to e a c h o th e r. Page 141 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e c a ll w a s ju s t a b o u t h i m w a n ti n g to greet you? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I do not know who in it i a t e d th e c a l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : [I n t e r v e n e s ] , ja . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I f i t w a s my fr i e n d o r w h e t h e r i t w a s h i m C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t u l t i m a te ly t h e d i s c u s s i o n w a s n o t h in g m o r e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t – n o t h in g m o r e th a n j u s t g r e e ti n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Has M r Edward Zuma ever denied h a v i n g v i s i t e d y o u o n th a t d a y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d is a t s o m e s ta g e t h is t h in g l e a k e d i n t o t h e m e d i a – t h e m a i n . So in it i a l ly the he a d m it t e d that he had been th e r e and denied c o n v e r s a ti o n . T h e n l a t e r o n h e d e n i e d e m p h a t ic a l ly t h a t h e h a d b e e n t o m y o ff ic e . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h i c h o n e o f t h e t w o b u t t h e l a s t t i m e 20 t h a t I h e a r d h i m g o in g p u b lic h e d e n i e s h a v in g b e e n to m y o ff ic e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n to p a g e 8 8 o f y o u r m a i n a ffi d a v i t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d . J u s t t o g o b a c k t o t h e R 5 0 m i lli o n . B e fo r e M r E d w a r d Z u m a ’s v i s i t t o y o u r o ffic e th e r e w a s – y o u s a id th e r e w a s a n a m o u n t o f a b o u t R 5 0 m i lli o n w h i c h y o u h a d Page 142 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d is c o v e r e d w a s a b o u t t o b e p a i d o u t b y S A P S ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d to b e p a i d o u t to M r P a n d a y ’s c o m p a n y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s a n d y o u h a d g i v e n in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t t h a t s h o u l d not happen? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t is r ig h t . I w r o t e t o o u r F i n a n c ia l D e p a r t m e n t C h a i r a n d I t o l d t h e m n o t t o r e l e a s e t h e m o n e y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: B e c a u s e i t is s u b j e c t t o a c o r r u p ti o n in v e s ti g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d I i n d ic a te d th a t i f t h e m o n e y s h o u l d b e p a i d o u t t h a t t h a t c o u l d b e a n o t h e r fo r m o f c o r r u p ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I f I c a n t a k e y o u t o p a g e 8 8 if y o u are there? 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h ic h p a g e ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 8 8 o f y o u r m a i n a ffi d a v it . I t i s Annexure JWB4. Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th is is a n a ff i d a v i t t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s in v e s ti g a t o r s o b ta in e d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e i d e n ti f y t h e d o c u m e n t. Page 143 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir i t is a s t a t e m e n t b y E la i n e R e g in a L a t c h a n a h w h o a t t h e t i m e w a s m y s e c r e ta r y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d if y o u c o u ld r e a d f r o m t h is p a r a g r a p h 3 s e c o n d s e n t e n c e w h ic h s ta r t s w i t h : “ Ac c o r d i n g t o … ” M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th is is . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w il l a p p r e c i a t e t h a t. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So th is person who is th e s t a te m e n t fr o m E l a i n e L a tc h a n a h . 10 “ Ac c o r d i n g to my r e c o ll e c ti o n a id e n t i fi e d h i m s e l f a s M r E d w a r d Z u m a r e q u e s te d a n a p p o i n t m e n t w i t h M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n . Mr Z u m a c a l l e d s e v e r a l t i m e s to s e c u r e a n a p p o i n t m e n t. A d a t e w h ic h I d o n o t r e c a ll w a s a g r e e d u p o n a f te r c o n s u l t in g w i th M a jo r General Booysen. M r E d w a r d Z u m a d i d n o t i n f o r m m e a s to w h a t th e m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t . Mr E d w a r d Z u m a d i d a r r i v e o n the day agreed upon and me with M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n in G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s o ff ic e . I d o 20 n o t r e c a ll h o w l o n g th e m e e ti n g w a s a n d a f te r th e m e e ti n g M r Z u m a l e f t. ” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: N o w t h i s is i n f a c t a n a ff i d a v i t t h a t w a s d e p o s e d to o n 2 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d E l a in e is s p e l t E - Page 144 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 L - A- I- N - E . T h e s e c o n d n a m e w h i c h is R e g i n a is s p e l t R - E - G - I- N - A a n d t h e s u r n a m e w h ic h i s s p e l t L - A - T- C - H - A- N - A - H . T h e r e w a s – o k a y. T h e r e is o n e p a r t ic u l a r e v e n t w h i c h is n o t i n c lu d e d i n th is p a r ti c u la r ti m e li n e a n d to t h a t e x t e n t I w o u l d li k e to t a k e y o u t o E X H I B I T Z C a n d in p a r ti c u l a r page 3 of this bundle. Paragraphs 7 to 10 d o c u m e n ts / e v e n ts t h a t t o o k p l a c e a f t e r M r E d w a r d Z u m a a t te n d e d y o u r o ffic e . C a n y o u p l e a s e i n fo r m t h e C h a i r o f s u c h e v e n ts ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h i s fr ie n d o f m i n e w h o I h a d m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r I r e q u e s t h i m to s e e k 10 a n a u d i e n c e w i t h th e t h e n S t a t e P r e s i d e n t t o e n li g h te n h i m t o w h a t h i s s o n w a s u p t o . S o h e a r r a n g e d th is m e e t i n g a n d I tr a v e ll e d w i t h h i m t o N k a n d la . I h a d t w o m e e ti n g s . S o I w i ll d e s c r i b e th e fir s t m e e ti n g . S o t h e fir s t m e e t in g w e a r r i v e d th e r e a t N k a n d la . I was asked to wait o u t s i d e a n d m y fr ie n d o b v i o u s l y b e i n g p r i v y to w h a t E d w a r d w a s u p t o h e w e n t i n a n d h e s p o k e t o t h e t h e n S t a te P r e s i d e n t M r Z u m a . A w h i le la t e r h e c a m e o u t a n d I g r e e te d th e Pr e s id e n t a n d I d i d n o t h a v e a n y d is c u s s io n s w i th h i m . S o w e g o t i n to m y f r i e n d ’s c a r a n d w e l e f t - d e p a r t e d f o r h o m e . S o I s a id t o m y fr ie n d w h a t h a p p e n e d . H e s a i d n o t t h e Pr e s i d e n t d o e s n o t w a n t t o g e t in v o lv e d . S o I le f t i t a t t h a t . M u c h 20 la t e r I a g a i n s a id to m y fr ie n d I w a n t to h a v e a n o t h e r m e e ti n g w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t . H e a r r a n g e d a m e e ti n g a g a in a n d if I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly I t h i n k it w a s a S u n d a y. W e l e f t v e r y e a r ly i n th e m o r n in g . S o w e a r r iv e d a t N k a n d la a n d t h is ti m e a r o u n d I e n te r e d t h e a c t u a l h o u s e w h e r e w e f o u n d t h e t h e n S t a t e Pr e s i d e n t M r Z u m a . W e e x c h a n g e d g r e e ti n g s b u t t h e r e w e r e n o d is c u s s i o n s a b o u t a n y f o r m a l is s u e s . H e a n d m y f r i e n d Page 145 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e n e x c u s e d t h e m s e lv e s . T h e y w e n t i n to a n a d j a c e n t r o o m a n d I g o t u p b u t I w a l k e d o u ts id e a n d h a d a l o o k a t t h e a r e a t h e r e . About 15 m i n u t e s l a t e r t h e y c a m e b a c k . Th e y c a l l e d m e b a c k i n t o t h e lo u n g e . I n t h e l o u n g e w e s a t a n d t h e E d w a r d Z u m a m a tt e r w a s n o t d is c u s s e d a t a l l b y my s e l f . So we sat around and once again we spoke about the p o li t ic s o f t h e d a y a n d a f e w o th e r i s s u e s a n d I t h i n k w e s til l – I th in k I s t il l p o s e d w i th a p h o t o g r a p h w it h th e , w it h t h e t h e n S t a te Pr e s i d e n t a n d w e l e f t. W h e n w e g o t in t o my fr i e n d ’s c a r h e s a i d t o m e l o o k h e h a d s p o k e n t o t h e P r e s i d e n t a b o u t i t – a b o u t h i s s o n ’s t o y s a n d w e 10 should go and speak to Khulubuse. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s t h a t , K h u lu b u s e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e n e p h e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s th e n e p h e w ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g , y e s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: But I have met K h u l u b u s e b e f o r e th a t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O n s o c i a l o c c a s io n s . I h a v e m e t h i m o n c e o r t w ic e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o I s a i d t o m y fr i e n d okay but where is Khulubuse. H e s a y s n o h e is i n o n e o f t h e p l a c e s Page 146 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 h e r e i n N k a n d la . S o w e d r o v e t h e r e a n d i t w a s lik e a b i g r o n d a v e l a n d w e k n o c k e d o n t h e d o o r a n d h e w a s b u s y a ls o w i t h a c u l tu r a l s t o r y w h e r e h e h a d t o s e c l u d e h i m s e l f f r o m , f r o m s o c ie ty. H e w a s la y i n g o n a m a t tr e s s o n t h e b e d a n d w e w a lk e d i n s i d e . W e g r e e t e d h i m a n d m y fr i e n d e x p la i n e d to h i m w h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a d s a i d a n d t h e n K h u l u b u s e s a i d l o o k h e w i ll s p e a k to E d w a r d t o s t o p h is n o n s e n s e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 But the reason why s u s p e c ts t h e Pr e s id e n t d i d n o t w a n t t o e n g a g e E d w a r d h i m s e l f is n u m b e r o n e t h e y w e r e n o t o n g o o d t e r m s a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e . F o r tw o r e a s o n s t h e o n e b e in g th a t E d w a r d w a s d r in k i n g t o o m u c h . I assume d r i n k i n g t o o m u c h a lc o h o l a n d t h e s e c o n d r e a s o n b e i n g t h a t E d w a r d h a d b o u g h t a h o u s e i n t h e D u r b a n N o r t h a r e a a n d h e h a d n o t i n v i t e d h is f a t h e r t o t h e c u l tu r a l o p e n i n g o f th e r e s i d e n c e a n d t h e n h e s a i d n o h e w i ll g o a n d s p e a k t o E d w a r d t o s t o p h is n o n s e n s e , b u t th a t is w h e r e i t ended. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 W h a t i n fo r m e d y o u r in s i s t e n c e t o s e e k a n a u d ie n c e w i t h f o r m e r P r e s id e n t J a c o b Zu m a ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I t h i n k i t w a s i m p o r t a n t. H e r e y o u h a v e t h e s o n o f a S t a t e Pr e s i d e n t g e t t in g in v o lv e d w i t h – w it h s e r io u s c o r r u p ti o n i s s u e s w i t h i n t h e p o li c e a n d I f e l t i t in c u m b e n t u p o n m y s e l f r i g h t ly o r w r o n g ly s o to a le r t t h e S t a t e P r e s i d e n t w h a t h is s o n w a s b u s y w i t h . Page 147 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . D i d y o u r fr i e n d w h o a c c o m p a n ie d y o u k n o w w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e v is i t w a s ? L e t u s t a lk a b o u t th e fir s t v is i t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : He did both – on both o c c a s i o n s h e d id C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s a n d - a n d y o u h a d a s k e d h i m t o f a c i li t a te t h e m e e ti n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d w h e n y o u le f t f o r N k a n d la y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t t h e m e e t in g h a d b e e n f a c il i ta t e d a n d t h a t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t 10 w a s e x p e c t in g y o u o r w o u ld b e e x p e c t in g y o u t o a r r iv e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , b u t w h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t h is r e s i d e n c e – i n N k a n d la – y o u s a id y o u n e v e r e n t e r e d t h e r o o m o r y o u d i d e n t e r ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e fi r s t t i m e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t ti m e y o u d i d e n t e r ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t h e f ir s t ti m e I d i d n o t e n t e r. I w a i te d o u t s i d e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e m a i n e d in t h e y a r d o r ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n th e y a r d C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e y a r d a n d y o u r f r i e n d e n t e r e d a c e r t a i n r o o m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : He entered. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e e m e r g e d la t e r o n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : And made a certain report to you about what his d is c u s s io n i n s id e t h e r o o m w a s ? H o w it w e n t ? Page 148 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u l e f t w i t h o u t m e e ti n g t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t yours elf? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d th e r e p o r t th a t y o u g o t fr o m y o u r fr ie n d w a s t h a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t d i d n o t w a n t t o g e t i n v o lv e d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: That is th e case C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d th e n s o m e ti m e l a te r y o u – th e r e w a s a n o t h e r 10 – y o u m a d e a n o t h e r tr i p to N k a n d l a a n o t h e r v is it ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t o n e h a d b e e n f a c i li t a te d b y y o u r fr i e n d a g a in a s w e ll ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: The same fr i e n d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S a m e , y e s . O n t h a t o c c a s io n y o u d id e n te r t h e r o o m . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : [ I n d is t in c t] . CHAIRPERSON : A n d a t s o m e s ta g e i n t h e r o o m w e r e y o u r s e l f , y o u r fr i e n d a n d t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t b u t f o r a s e t p e r io d o f t i m e th e f o r m e r 20 P r e s i d e n t a n d y o u r f r i e n d m o v e i n t o a n o t h e r a d ja c e n t r o o m ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e l e f t i n t h e o th e r r o o m ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d t h e n t h e y c a m e b a c k l a t e r o n a n d y o u t a lk e d a b o u t o t h e r t h i n g s b u t n o t a b o u t t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r m e e ti n g ? Page 149 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t is a n a c c u r a t e d e s c r ip t io n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : J a a n d la t e r o n y o u r fr i e n d t o ld y o u t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t d id n o t w a n t t o b e i n v o lv e d a n d s a i d m a y b e y o u p e o p l e c o u l d speak to Khulubuse? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e r e p o r t y o u g o t ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : And then you went to see Khulubuse? 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : to A n d K h u l u b u s e ’s a t t it u d e to w a r d s t h a t h e w o u ld t a lk Mr Edward Zuma b u t fr o m what you d is a p p r o v i n g o f s o m e t h in g a b o u t K h u l u b u s e . y o u s a i d s o m e t h in g l ik e n o n s e n s e . s a id it is lik e Is th a t r i g h t ? he was I thought I t h o u g h t y o u s a id s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e m u s t s to p h is n o n s e n s e o r w h a t e v e r ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Wa s t h a t c o m i n g fr o m K h u l u b u s e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 C h a ir it was a d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n u s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I m ig h t h a v e u s e d i t t h a t h e m u s t s t o p h is n o n s e n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o h e a g r e e d t o t h a t. Page 150 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t n o w y o u h a d g o n e t o – y o u h a d w a n t e d to s e e th e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t b e c a u s e y o u b e l ie v e d t h a t h e s h o u l d k n o w a b o u t t h i s – t h e in v o lv e m e n t o f M r E d w a r d Z u m a ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a s s u m e w i th M r P a n d a y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To a l e r t h i m t o . 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . CHAIRPERSON : S o y o u e n d e d u p a le r t in g K h u l u b u s e a n d h e s a i d h e w o u ld t a lk t o E d w a r d Z u m a ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t h e w a s g o i n g to ta lk to h i m w i th – w i th t h e id e a t h a t h e m u s t s t o p s o m e t h i n g o r s t o p b e i n g in v o lv e d w i th s o m e b o d y o r w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t th e p u r p o s e w a s g o i n g t o b e o f t a lk i n g t o h i m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Yo u s e e C h a i r w h a t h a p p e n e d i s i n t h a t p e r i o d th e r e w a s a l o t o f s p e c u l a ti o n i n th e m e d ia . 20 H e h a d b e e n to m y o ffic e n o h e h a d n o t b e e n . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th e n he s ta r te d m a k i n g p u b l ic s ta t e m e n ts a n d I w a n te d h i m t o b a c k o ff . T h a t w a s n o w E d w a r d a n d s t o p h is n o n s e n s e – if a n y - i f h e s ti ll h a d a n y c o n n e c ti o n w i t h To s h a n P a n d a y. Page 151 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w i t h K h u l u b u s e w a s t h a t h e w il l t e ll E d w a r d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: L e a v e th is n o n s e n s e alone. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: That was my u n d e r s t a n d in g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D i d a n y t h i n g r e s u lt fr o m y o u r v is i ts to Nkandla? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: N o C h a ir. I f y o u c a n t h e n m o v e o n d i d Mr To s h a n P a n d a y d o a n y th i n g t o tr y to d e r a i l t h e c o n t in u in g in v e s ti g a t io n , and we are now on block 20? CHAIRPERSON : I ’ m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u g e t a n a n s w e r t o th a t , I th i n k y o u h a v e g o t t h e s p e ll i n g f o r K h u l u b u s e Zu m a in c o r r e c tly t h e r e , t h e r e is n o “ a ” i n s t e a d o f t h e “ a ” t h e r e , t h e r e s h o u l d b e “ u ” a n d t h e “ h ” b e fo r e 20 the “e” at the end should not be there. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ye s t h a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir a p o lo g i e s f o r th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV VERUSHCHKA SEPTEMB ER : At paragraph 20 of our timeline my q u e s t io n t o y o u i s , d id M r To s h a n P a n d a y d o a n y t h i n g t o tr y t o d e r a il Page 152 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e c o n ti n u i n g in v e s ti g a t io n a g a in s t h i m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: H e d id C h a ir. P l e a s e p r o v i d e d e t a i ls i n r e l a t i o n to it . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s q u i t e l e a d in g w h e n y o u a s k h i m t h a t in th a t w a y b u t it ’s o k a y, w h a t d i d P a n d a y d o i n r e g a r d to t h e s e in v e s ti g a t i o n s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I w a s b u s y a tt e n d i n g a s e m in a r i n K e m p t o n P a r k o n d o m e s ti c v io le n c e w h e n I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m o n e o f th e w a r r a n t o ff ic e r s a t t h e C a to M a n o r U n i t , 10 Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r P a u l M o s te r t . M o s t e r t i n fo r m e d m e t h a t h e h a d r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m a p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f To s h a n P a n d a y w h o w a n t e d t o m e e t u p w i t h h i m a n d h e h a d t o l d To s h a n P a n d a y h e w a s a b i t b u s y, h e s a y s a n h o u r o r s o l a t e r h e r e c e i v e d a n o th e r c a l l fr o m t h is p e r s o n , in tr o d u c i n g h i m s e l f a s To s h a n P a n d a y w h o s a i d t o h i m , n o h e ’s c lo s e to th e i r o ffic e , M o s te r t ’s o ff ic e a n d t h a t h e s h o u l d m e e t h i m a t t h e g a r a g e w h i c h w a s j u s t a r o u n d th e c o r n e r, w h ic h h e t h e n d i d . H e t h e n a r r iv e d t h e r e w h e r e h e m e t t h e g e n tl e m a n , To s h a n P a n d a y. To s h a n P a n d a y t h e n s a i d t o h i m , l o o k t h e r e ’s b e e n a s e a r c h o n o u r p r e m is e s a n d t h e p o l ic e c o n f is c a t e d s o m e f il e s a n d h e r e f e r r e d t o o n e s p e c i f ic 20 fi le b e i n g t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t fi l e b u t h e k n e w e x a c tl y h o w m a n y fi le s h a d b e e n c o n fi s c a t e d a n d h e s a i d t o h i m , th e s e f il e s a r e b e i n g k e p t i n a n o ffic e i n Fi e l d S tr e e t a n d th e n h e s a i d t o M o s te r t , I w o u l d li k e y o u t o s t e a l t h o s e f il e s , fa il in g w h ic h y o u h a v e t o s e t t h e b u il d i n g a li g h t a n d i f y o u d o t h a t y o u c a n n a m e y o u r p r ic e . S o M o s t e r t s a id t o m e , h e t h e n t o l d P a n d a y n o h e c o u ld n ’t g e t i n v o lv e d i n s o m e th i n g l ik e t h i s , s o I s t il l Page 153 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 s a i d to – w e c a l l h i m M o s s ie , I s a id M o s s ie y o u s h o u l d h a v e a c t u a ll y e n g a g e d h i m a n d w e c o u l d h a v e g o t t e n S e c t io n 2 5 2 ( a ) a u t h o r i ty, b y t h a t I m e a n a u th o r i ty fr o m t h e D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s t o p r o c e e d w i t h a n o s t e n s i b l e u n l a w fu l a c ti v i ty. I s a i d t o h i m , lo o k w h y d o n ’ t y o u p h o n e h i m b a c k a n d s a y t o h i m , y o u t h o u g h t a b o u t i t , y o u ’v e g o t a p r ic e a n d th e n l e t’s s e e if w e c a n n o t o r g a n is e a S e c t io n 2 5 2 o p e r a ti o n . I t h e n i m m e d i a t e ly p h o n e d t h e D P P ’s o ffi c e , w h a t I n o r m a lly d o is , t h e C a p ta in , C a p ta in H e n n i e P e ls e r a t m y o ffi c e w h o c o - o r d i n a te s a l l t h e S e c ti o n 2 5 2 ( a ) o p e r a t i o n s i n th e p r o v in c e , s o I p h o n e d h i m a n d I 10 s a i d , lo o k y o u s h o u ld i m m e d i a t e ly g e t a u t h o r i ty, 2 5 2 a u th o r i ty fr o m t h e D P P, I ’ m f ly in g t o D u r b a n fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d t h e y s h o u l d g e t a ll the paperwork done. I t h e n a l s o p h o n e d C o lo n e l K a r l v a n d e r Vy f e r fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d I s a i d t o h i m , I’ m fl y i n g b a c k , w e ’v e g o t S e c t io n 2 5 2 a u th o r i ty, t h a t t h e y s h o u l d r i g u p o n e o f t h e v e h i c l e s , b y t h a t I m e a n , t h e y s h o u ld w i r e ta p i t s o th a t w e c a n r e c o r d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s , w h ic h th e y d id a n d t h e f o l lo w in g d a y M o s t e r t p h o n e d P a n d a y b a c k t o t e ll h i m , lo o k h e r e , h e r e - t h o u g h t h is p o s i t io n a n d h e ’d lik e t o m e e t h i m – t h e y d id m e e t a g a in b u t I t h i n k P a n d a y m u s t h a v e g o t t e n s u s p ic i o u s , h e w o u l d n ’ t g e t i n to t h e v e h ic l e a n d t h e w a y h e 20 s p o k e to M o s te r t t h e n , a c c o r d in g t o M o s t e r t w a s th a t h e w a s a l m o s t l ik e – h e c o u l d n ’ t e v e n r e m e m b e r t h a t th e p r e v io u s m e e t i n g h a d t a k e n p la c e s o I s u s p e c t h e k n e w w e w e r e u p to s o m e t h i n g , s o n o t h i n g c a m e o f th a t S e c t io n 2 5 2 o p e r a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n t h e p e r s o n y o u r e f e r r e d to , d i d y o u s a y Moses? Page 154 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: M o s te r t w e c a l l h i m M o s s i e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : O h M o s te r t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s a c o l o n e l in t h e S A P S ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A warrant o ff ic e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A w a r r a n t o ffi c e r i n G a u t e n g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 N o , n o i n K Z N a t th e Cato Manor Unit. CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y s o h e g o t a c a l l fr o m Mr P a n d a y a t a ti m e w h e n h e w a s w i th y o u ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No. CHAIRPERSON : N o h e w a s n o t w i th y o u w h e n h e g o t t h e c a ll ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: J a h e w a s a t th e o ffic e i n C a to M a n o r w h i c h i s ju s t o u t s i d e D u r b a n a n d I w a s h e r e i n Kempton Park. CHAIRPERSON : O h s o h e j u s t r e p o r t e d t o y o u a b o u t t h is c a l l? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n h e r e p o r t e d t o y o u , h e h a d a l r e a d y m e t w i th M r P a n d a y. .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : ( I n d i s t i n c t) . Oh okay so you say that after he told you what – a ft e r h is d is c u s s io n w i th M r P a n d a y h a d g o n e , y o u s a i d h e s h o u ld a c t u a ll y h a v e h a n d l e d it d i ff e r e n t ly s o t h a t y o u c o u l d p o s s i b ly d o a Page 155 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: N o , n o C h a ir w e w a n t e d t o d o a S e c ti o n 2 5 2 ( a ) o p e r a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s o k a y a n d w h a t d o e s th a t i n v o l v e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir n o r m a lly w e g e t S e c t io n 2 5 2 ( a ) a u t h o r is a ti o n to e n g a g e in a c r i m i n a l a c t iv i ty, f o r in s t a n c e i f I c a n g i v e y o u a n e x a m p le , i f w e w a n t to b u y d r u g s fr o m a d r u g d e a l e r w e h a v e t o a p p ly f o r a S e c ti o n 2 5 2 ( a ) a u t h o r i s a t io n fr o m t h e D P P – t h e r e ’s a d e s ig n a t e d A d v o c a t e f r o m t h e D P P ’s o ff ic e w h o w i ll 10 t h e n g iv e u s t h a t a u t h o r i ty a n d t h e r e a s o n fo r th a t b e i n g , p o li c e m e n w o u ld s o m e t i m e s e n g a g e i n c r i m i n a l a c t iv i t ie s a n d w h e n t h e y g e t c a u g h t th e y s a y, n o I w a s b u s y w it h a n o p e r a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s s o t h is is t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i f i t is l e g i ti m a t e there is proof. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : J a s o i t l e g i t i m is e s w h ic h .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : T h a t w h ic h o t h e r w is e i s c r i m i n a l? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s r ig h t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s , y e s o k a y b e c a u s e if y o u d o n ’ t h a v e i t t h e n y o u c a n ’ t s a y i t w a s l e g i ti m a t e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t’s i n d e e d s o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y s o – b u t – s o th a t w a s a r r a n g e d a n d i n o r d e r f o r th is t o w o r k Mr P a n d a y a n d M o s te r t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o m e e t a n d M r P a n d a y w a s s u p p o s e d to g e t i n t o t h e c a r t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n w ir e d , I Page 156 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h i n k y o u s a i d , a n d th e n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t th e y w o u l d h a v e h a d , w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e c o r d e d b u t t h a t r e c o r d i n g d i d n ’ t ta k e p l a c e b e c a u s e Mr Panday didn’t want to get into the car? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t ’s in d e e d s o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : J a a n d y o u s a y t h a t t h e y d i d e n g a g e in a c o n v e r s a ti o n o u t s i d e o f t h e c a r b u t M r Pa n d a y – M r P a n d a y w a s s p e a k i n g o n t h e b a s is t h a t h e h a d n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o f t h e p r e v i o u s d is c u s s io n . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir. J a o k a y, a lr i g h t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o i t ’s y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t Mr To s h a n P a n d a y m u s t h a v e s u s p e c te d s o m e t h i n g , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t ’s w h a t I s u s p e c t w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d th a t ’s w h y h e w o u ld n o t e n g a g e w i th M o s t e r t o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d w a s t h is a fe w d a y s a f t e r t h e f ir s t e n c o u n t e r th a t t h e t w o o f t h e m h a d , h a d w h e n M r P a n d a y h a d m a d e th is r e q u e s t t o Mostert? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 No it was the f o ll o w i n g d a y C h a ir, I i m m e d i a t e ly fl e w b a c k , I e x c u s e d my s e l f fr o m t h e s e m i n a r a n d I i m m e d i a t e ly f le w b a c k t o b e h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : S o t h e r e ’s n o w a y t h a t M r P a n d a y w o u ld h a v e g e n u i n e ly f o r g o t t e n a b o u t th a t c o n v e r s a t i o n ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 157 of 212 N o C h a ir. 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: General Booysen did . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON : A n d i f t h a t is s o c le a r ly h e h a d e i th e r g o t w i n d o f s o m e t h i n g o r h e h a d l o o k e d a t th e w h o l e t h i n g a n d th o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g t h a t M o s t e r t w a s u p to . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir l a t e r o n in m y e v i d e n c e I w i ll – P a n d a y w a s a l w a y s v e r y s u s p ic io u s o f c e r t a i n e v e n ts t h a t to o k p l a c e a n d I ’l l p e r h a p s e la b o r a te o n t h a t b i t l a te r i n m y evidence. 10 CHAIRPERSON : O k a y th a n k s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: G e n e r a l B o o y s e n d i d y o u e s ta b lis h a n y r e a s o n fo r h o w M r To s h a n P a n d a y m a y h a v e s u s p e c t e d s o m e t h i n g ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Chair what happened is – a n d d u r i n g th e in v e s t i g a t io n w e a p p li e d f o r A c t 7 0 i n t e r c e p ti o n s a n d f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f th e p u b li c Ac t 7 0 i n te r c e p ti o n s is w h e r e w e , a s in v e s t i g a t o r s t h r o u g h C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a p p ly t o t h e d e s i g n a t e d J u d g e , o f w h i c h t h e r e ’s o n e , I th in k h e ’s b a s e d i n Pr e to r i a w h e r e w e h a v e t o p u t i n a m o t iv a ti o n to l e g a lly i n te r c e p t t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s o f a s u s p e c t u n d e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . A t t h e t i m e th e r e w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s – t h e r e w a s 20 a n a p p l ic a t i o n f o r s u c h i n t e r c e p ti o n s a n d P a n d a y ’s c o m m u n i c a t io n s w e r e i n te r c e p t e d a t t h e ti m e a n d C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w h o d e a l t w i t h t h e s e i n t e r c e p ti o n s , th e n i n f o r m e d m e , t h a t a c e r t a in c o n v e r s a t io n h a d t a k e n p l a c e i n w h ic h th e y i n t e r c e p t e d a c a ll b e t w e e n a c o l o n e l t h a t h a d w o r k e d u n d e r m y c o m m a n d , C o l o n e l W S M a h l a n g u a n d I a c t u a l ly lis t e n e d t o s o m e o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n s a n d I i n f a c t , a t a l a te r s t a g e h a d Page 158 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 c o n fr o n t e d W S M a h la n g u , t h e c o lo n e l w i t h c e r t a i n d is c u s s i o n s t h a t t o o k p la c e b e t w e e n h i m a n d To s h a n P a n d a y. H e o b v io u s ly k n e w h e c o u l d n ’ t d e n y it b e c a u s e I m e n t io n e d s p e c i fi c s t o h i m a n d h e s a i d t o m e no he had phoned him because they were comrades in the ANC but as far as I’m concerned that was nonsense. So W S was one of the c o l o n e ls t h a t r e p o r t e d to m e b u t h e h a d a ls o w o r k e d i n th e s a m e b u il d in g w h e r e th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s h a d w o r k e d . Th e s i g n i fic a n c e o f t h a t C h a ir is , t h e e x h ib i ts t h a t w e r e s e iz e d , I d id n o t e v e n k n o w w h e r e t h e y were kept. 10 I o n ly e s t a b l is h e d m u c h la t e r t h a t th e y w e r e k e p t a t – b e c a u s e t h e c o l o n e l s th a t w e r e in v o lv e d w i t h th is in v e s t i g a t io n s s o m e o f t h e m w e r e e x - Sc o r p i o n m e m b e r s s o t h e y s t ill h a d a n o ff ic e i n Fi e ld S tr e e t , a n d t h a t ’s w h e r e th e y k e p t t h e e x h ib it s . S o I d id n ’t e v e n k n o w t h a t t h e e x h ib i ts w e r e k e p t th e r e u n t il M o s t e r t h a d t o l d m e th e e x h i b i t s were there. S o w e c o n c lu d e d fr o m o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t th e o n ly p e r s o n t h a t c o u l d h a v e t o l d P a n d a y w h e r e th o s e e x h i b i t s w e r e k e p t , must have been c o lo n e l W S M a h la n g u . Th e r e were other c o m m u n ic a ti o n i n t e r c e p ts b e t w e e n th e t w o a s w e ll w h ic h r e l a te d to c o m p r o m is i n g t h is v e r y i n v e s ti g a ti o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 D i d c o l o n e l M a h la n g u h a v e a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h A d v o c a t e N o m g c o b o J i b a ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir y e s , w h e n I became the head of the Hawks in KZN there was a project, and I cannot r e c a l l w h a t it w a s c a l le d e x a c tl y, w h e r e I h a d t o a u t h o r i s e h is s e c o n d m e n t t o th e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u th o r i ty w h e r e t h e y w e r e g o i n g to tr y a n d fi n d p e o p l e t h a t w e r e m u r d e r e d i n t h e A p a r th e id Page 159 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d is p e n s a t i o n w h ic h I a u t h o r is e d . S o h e s p e n t q u i t e s o m e t i m e w o r k i n g w i t h th e N PA b u t it w a s c o m m o n c a u s e a m o n g s t th e i n v e s ti g a t o r s th a t h e h a d a c l o s e r e la t io n s h i p w i th A d v o c a t e M o i p o n e N o k o w h o w a s t h e D P P o r s h e l a te r b e c a m e t h e D P P s h e w a s fi r s t a c ti n g a n d l a t e r th e n b e c a m e t h e D P P. D u r i n g – w e ll m u c h l a te r in e v e n ts t h a t w o u l d f o ll o w, a t th e ti m e t h a t A d v o c a te M x o lis i N x a s a n a w a s a p p o i n te d a s t h e N D P P I w a s i n f o r m e d t h a t W S M a h l a n g u w a s c l a n d e s t in e ly tr y i n g t o fi n d d ir t o n A d v o c a te N x a s a n a a n d th a t i n fo r m a t i o n o f m i n e w a s c o n fi r m e d i n a s t a te m e n t w h ic h I o b ta in e d fr o m a p e r s o n b y th e n a m e o f Te r r e n c e 10 J o u b e r t fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty. I f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e c o r r e c tl y, I t h i n k t h a t s ta t e m e n t w a s a t t a c h e d t o a n a ff id a v i t d e p o s e d to b y A d v o c a t e N x a s a n a i n a H i g h C o u r t m a tt e r i n t h e W e s t e r n C a p e , I s p e a k u n d e r c o r r e c t i o n b u t i n t h a t s t a t e m e n t Te r r e n c e J o u b e r t s t a te s t h a t W S M a h la n g u h a d a p p r o a c h e d h i m t o f in d d ir t o n A d v o c a t e N x a s a n a a t t h e b e h e s t o f A d v o c a t e J ib a . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In that regard could I take you then t o p a g e 7 8 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t p l e a s e – m a i n a ffi d a v i t . D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h is d o c u m e n t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I d o C h a ir. P l e a s e id e n t i fy th e d o c u m e n t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir i t ’s a n a ff i d a v i t b y Te r r e n c e J o h n J o u b e r t a n d i t w a s s i g n e d – i t a p p e a r s t o b e h is s ig n a tu r e , I d o n ’ t k n o w h i m p e r s o n a l ly, it w a s s ig n e d i n D u r b a n o n t h e 25th November 2013. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: F o r t h e b e n e fi t o f th e r e c o r d , c a n I Page 160 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a s k y o u to r e a d p a r a g r a p h 3 a n d 5 i n t o th e r e c o r d p le a s e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: P a r a g r a p h 3 , “ o n th e 1 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 I w a s o n d u ty a n d w a s s u p p o s e d to f e tc h A d v o c a t e J i b a fr o m t h e U s h a k a I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t, a f t e r m a k in g t h e a r r a n g e m e n ts I g o t a c a ll fr o m A d v o c a te J ib a ’s s e c r e t a r y t o s a y t h a t s h e w o u l d b e fe t c h e d b y c o lo n e l M h la n g u o n in s tr u c ti o n s f r o m t h e D P P K Z N . C o lo n e l M h la n g u is c u r r e n t ly s e c o n d e d t o th e N PA’s M is s i n g P e r s o n s U n i t t h a t is h e a d e d b y D e b r a Q u i n n in th e P r o v i n c e a n d b y S h a u n A b r a h a m s a t V G M . T h e i r jo b is t o a s s is t m e m b e r s o f th e N PA t o 10 obtain i n f o r m a t io n in v e s t i g a t io n s . by i n te r v i e w i n g w it n e s s e s to conclude the S h o r tly a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g b e tw e e n A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d C o l o n e l M a h l a n g u h e , C o l o n e l M a h l a n g u c a m e t o m e in m y o ff ic e a n d t o l d m e th a t t h e n e w g u y, r e f e r r in g t o t h e n e w N D P P, Mr N x a s a n a d o e s n o t li k e A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d A d v o c a t e M o g w e b e . H is a w a r e t h a t I d o h a v e a g r e a t r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h A d v o c a t e M o g w e b e a n d h e w a s p la y i n g o n m y e m o t io n s . I a s k e d w h y h e t h o u g h t s o a n d h e s a i d t h a t h e w a s s e n t b y J ib a a s s h e ’s c o n v i n c e d th a t t h is g u y is n o t t h e r i g h t p e r s o n fo r t h e j o b a n d t h a t w e s h o u l d tr y a n d fi n d s o m e th i n g o n h i m a s t h e y d i d a g a in s t M r G u m e d e . 20 M r G u m e d e w a s t h e f ir s t p e r s o n t h a t w e h a d h e a r d a b o u t w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p o i n te d t h e N D P P, t h e D P P h a d t h e n in s is t e d t h a t A d v o c a t e M a k o s i ( p r o s e c u to r ) m a k e a s ta t e m e n t a g a in s t M r G u m e d e c o n c e r n i n g t h e m a t t e r in w h i c h h e , Mr G u m e d e , h a d ill tr e a t e d h e r. T h is i n s ta n t g a v e u s i n d i c a ti o n s a s t o t h e k in d o f p e o p l e w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th a n d t o w h a t le n g th s t h e s e p e o p le w o u l d g o t o g e t t h e ir w a y. M a h la n g u w a s in s t r u m e n t a l in i m m o b i li s i n g p e o p le t o g a n g Page 161 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 u p a g a i n s t Mr G u m e d e ” . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And the last paragraph being paragraph 5 please. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: “ I t o l d h i m t h a t t h is w o u ld b e p la y i n g w i t h f ir e a s w e a l l – a r e a l l s m a l l fr ie s , w h e n e l e p h a n ts fi g h t t h e g r a s s s u ff e r s w a s m y c o m m e n t t o h i s s u g g e s ti o n . M a h l a n g u e n s u r e d m e t h a t th e ir e f f o r ts w o u l d n o t b e i n v a in a s J i b a h a d s a i d if t h i s m a n ( M r N x a s a n a ) is r e m o v e d t h e n s h e w o u l d b e a p p o i n te d a g a in . 10 T h e p la n w a s n o t w h e th e r M r N x a s a n a i s g u il ty b u t t h e m e r e fact that they wanted to embarrass him and insist that he be removed”. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you and just for th e a v o i d a n c e o f d o u b t , th is i s t h e a ff i d a v i t o f Te r r e n c e J o h n J o u b e r t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a n k y o u , m o v i n g o n to b l o c k 2 1 o f o u r ti m e li n e a n d i f I m a y p e r h a p s s ta r t o ff , m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t S e c t io n 2 5 2 ( a ) p r o c e s s e s a r e r e f e r r e d t o a “ s ti n g o p e r a ti o n s ” is th a t correct? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Okay was there – or rather what h a p p e n e d o n th e 2 4 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 11 ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I was a p p r o a c h e d b y o n e o f m y w a r r a n t o ff ic e r s a t th e t i m e , w a r r a n t o ff ic e r – w e ll h e w a s a s e r g e a n t t h e n h e ’s a w a r r a n t o ffi c e r n o w, D i n a G o v e n d e r a n d h e i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t C o l o n e l N a v i n M a d h o e , th e g u y th a t w e ’r e in v e s t i g a t in g s e e k e d a n a u d i e n c e w i t h m e , h e w a n t e d t o s e e m e . S o I Page 162 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 said to him, I don’t have a problem with him, he can come and see m e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d if I c a n i n te r r u p t y o u , C o lo n e l M a d h o e is t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d in t h e To s h a n P a n d a y in v e s t i g a t io n i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Please proceed. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So Chair th e f o ll o w i n g d a y h e a g a i n p h o n e d m e a n d h e s a id t o m e th a t C o lo n e l 10 M a d h o e w o u ld w a n t t o s e e m e , a c tu a lly h e s o u n d e d a b i t a g i ta t e d because he said that Madhoe had phoned him and accused him of not – f o r n o t w a n t in g t o f a c i li t a te a m e e t in g b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f u s , s o h e s a i d t o m e , c a n I m e e t C o l o n e l M a d h o e , I s a id n o I’ m f i n e I c a n m e e t h i m . S o I a s k e d h i m , w h e r e w o u l d t h e y l ik e t o m e e t a n d h e s a id t o m e n o a t J a i p u r P a l a c e w h ic h i s h a l f w a y b e t w e e n D u r b a n a n d D u r b a n N o r t h . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is th a t a r e s ta u r a n t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A r e s t a u r a n t , th a t ’s r ig h t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 Thank you. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So I said to him no le t ’s r a t h e r m e e t a t t h e E l a n g e n i H o t e l w h ic h is p r e t ty c lo s e – w a l k i n g d is t a n c e fr o m m y o ff ic e a n d w e a g r e e d . S o I i m m e d i a t e ly g o t i n m y c a r a n d i t to o k m e a b o u t t w o m i n u t e s t o g e t t o th e E l a n g e n i H o te l a n d o n m y a r r iv a l t h e r e t h e y h a d n ’ t a r r i v e d y e t . S o I w e n t u p s ta ir s , o n e fl o o r u p w h e r e I c o u l d s e e d o w n i n t o th e r e c e p t io n a r e a o f th e h o t e l . Page 163 of 212 I 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 w a i te d a w h il e a n d I d i d n ’ t s e e t h e m c o m i n g s o I p h o n e d G o v e n d e r b a c k – D in a G o v e n d e r b a c k a n d I s a i d t o h i m a r e y o u g u y s s ti ll c o m i n g b u t a s I w a s s p e a k i n g t o h i m h e s a id , n o w e ’v e j u s t a r r iv e d a n d I s a w t h e m coming, him and Colonel Madhoe. Mad hoe was dressed in a leather ja c k e t a n d h e h a d a la p t o p b a g i n h is h a n d . S o t h e y c a m e u p t o – u p t h e s t a i r c a s e a n d e x c h a n g e d . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON : A n d j u s t r e m in d m e a g a in , I th i n k I m a y h a v e m is s e d t h e n a m e , w h o is t h e p e r s o n t h a t w a s c o m i n g t o y o u t o g e t h e r w i t h Madhoe? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t w a s Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r D i n a G o v e n d e r, h e a ls o w o r k e d u n d e r my c o m m a n d a t th e ti m e b u t h e h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h th e m , I th i n k h e w a s fr i e n d s w i th M a d h o e . CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir s o o n c e w e h a d s a t d o w n t h e r e w a s a b e n c h a n d t h e t w o o f t h e m s a t a c r o s s fr o m m e a n d w e s p o k e f o r a w h i l e a n d t h e n M a d h o e s a id t o m e h e w a n te d to s p e a k t o m e o n m y o w n , n o w I d o n ’ t k n o w. . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : In private. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 In p r iv a t e s o I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s p r e - a r r a n g e d b e tw e e n M a d h o e a n d G o v e n d e r t h a t G o v e n d e r w o u l d th e n e x c u s e h i m s e l f b u t w h e n h e s a i d t h a t G o v e n d e r ju s t g o t u p a n d h e w a lk e d a w a y o u t o f e a r s h o t d is ta n c e fr o m w h e r e w e w e r e . M a d h o e t h e n t o o k o u t h is l a p to p a n d o p e n e d h is l a p t o p i n fr o n t o f m e , s t a r t e d s e t ti n g i t u p a n d h e s w i tc h e d i t o n a n d h e t u r n e d t h e la p to p a n d – n o w i f y o u l o o k a t fi le s , th o s e li t tl e r e d s q u a r e s t h e r e th e n Page 164 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 h e w o u l d p r o m p t o n e o f t h o s e l it t le s q u a r e s a n d u p c a m e a p i c tu r e o f a p e r s o n t h a t ’s o b v i o u s l y d e a d a n d th e n h e ’l l p r e s s a n o t h e r o n e , a n o t h e r p e r s o n d e a d b u t i t w a s o b v i o u s t o m e th a t a ll t h o s e p h o t o g r a p h s c a m e fr o m p o li c e f il e s th e y w e r e p e o p le . . .( in t e r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON : D i d y o u s a y th a t t h e p ic tu r e s th a t h e w a s s h o w i n g were pictures of dead people? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : Ye s C h a ir. O h o k a y s o h e o p e n e d t h is l a p t o p b e f o r e h e c o u ld s a y a n y th i n g a ft e r t h e o t h e r p e r s o n h a d l e f t th e tw o o f y o u ? 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir. O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So he would go to a c o u p l e o f p h o to g r a p h s li k e t h a t b u t t h e n i t d i d n ’ t m a k e s e n s e t o m e b e c a u s e a l l t h o s e p h o to g r a p h s w e r e p h o to g r a p h s t h a t c l e a r l y c a m e fr o m p o l ic e f il e s , fr o m p o l ic e d o c k e t s b e c a u s e y o u c o u ld s e e t h e p o l ic e cordoned tape was there and the cones were there and the circles and t h e s p r a y w h e r e t h e y m a r k e d e x h i b it s . CHAIRPERSON : Wa s h e o p e n i n g t h e la p to p i n s u c h a w a y t h a t y o u s h o u l d s e e t h e p ic tu r e s o r y o u ju s t h a p p e n e d to s e e t h e p i c t u r e s , th e y 20 were not meant for you to see? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No he showed me the p ic t u r e s . CHAIRPERSON : Oh he was showing you the pictures. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: p ic t u r e s . Page 165 of 212 He showed me th e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h e n I s a id t o h i m b u t t h e s e a r e n o r m a l p o lic e p h o t o s , w h a t’s t h is a ll a b o u t, t h e n h e s a id t o m e , n o , n o b u t h e c a n g e t m o r e p ic t u r e s , I s a i d , w e ll g e t m o r e p ic t u r e s a n d th e n h e s a i d to m e – h e s ta r t e d b y s a y i n g t h e r e ’s a l o t o f s tr e s s a t h o m e , o b v io u s ly r e f e r r in g t o t h e o n g o i n g i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e n h e s a i d t o m e is i t p o s s ib l e f o r m e to a s s is t t h e m i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . S o I s a i d t o h i m , h o w d o y o u m e a n a s s i s t y o u in t h e in v e s t i g a t io n – I w a s t a k e n a b a c k b e c a u s e , I m e a n , in m y p o s i ti o n fo r a 10 c o l o n e l t o a p p r o a c h m e t o – a n d h e ’s a s u s p e c t a n d t h e s u b je c t o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n t o a p p r o a c h m e t o a s s is t t h e m i n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s unheard of. S o I s a i d t o h i m a n d h o w c a n I h e l p y o u i n th e in v e s t i g a t io n . H e t h e n s a i d t o m e t h a t I’ m i n – m y s e l f , I ’ m i n p o s s e s s i o n o f a r e p o r t b y t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s , C h a ir s o w h a t h a p p e n s i n t h e p o li c e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : S o h e w a s s a y i n g th a t y o u a r e i n a p o s s e s s i o n o f a c e r t a i n p o lic e i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e p o r t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir if I c a n j u s t e x p l a i n , n o r m a l ly i n t h e p o l ic e i t ’s a p o lic e h a b it , e s p e c i a lly i f y o u ’r e i n a management position, when you get a document on your table we n o r m a l ly ta k e t h e d a te s t a m p , s t a m p i t a n d i n i t ia l i t , th a t ’s a n i n d i c a t io n in t h e f u t u r e w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d i t , w h e n i t la n d e d o n y o u r ta b l e . S o h e s a i d t o m e I ’v e g o t t h i s r e p o r t – a p r o g r e s s r e p o r t a n d h e a c t u a l ly Page 166 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n a m e d th e r e p o r t t h a t w a s t h e s a m e o n e t h a t Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y h a d g iv e n m e . CHAIRPERSON : T h e fi r s t o r t h e s e c o n d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e f ir s t o n e C h a ir, s o h e s a i d t o m e th a t d o c u m e n t h a s n ’ t g o t th a t s t a m p a n d t h a t s i g n a t u r e o f mine on. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And he said to me – a n d t h e r e p o r t i t s e l f is n o t d a t e d , h e s a i d if I w o u ld ta k e th a t r e p o r t o f 10 m i n e a n d a n t i - d a t e i t t o a d a t e b e f o r e t h e a p p l ic a ti o n fo r th e S e c t i o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w e n t i n , t h a t w o u l d m e a n t h a t th e i n f o r m a t io n i n t h a t r e p o r t w a s a c q u ir e d b e f o r e t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w e r e a u t h o r i s e d a n d a t th e s a m e t i m e th e y h a d th is – th a t w a s m o r e o r l e s s a t t h e s a m e ti m e t h a t th e y h a d th e H ig h C o u r t a p p l ic a ti o n f o r t h e 2 0 5 ’s t o b e s e t aside. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s n o w h i m a n d w h o , M r P a n d a y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: L i s te n . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h a t is w h e n t h e y h a d a n a p p li c a t io n t o s e t a s i d e th e 2 0 5 ’s ? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o I ’ m a s k i n g w h o t h e y is ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Chair I cannot r e m e m b e r w h o d e p o s e d t o . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : But he was one of them? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 167 of 212 Ja he was one of 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e m , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h o d e p o s e d t o t h e f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t a n d w h o m a d e a s u p p l e m e n t a r y I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h a t b u t b e th a t a s it m a y t h e r e w a s t h is a p p l ic a ti o n t o h a v e th e 2 0 5 ’s s e t a s i d e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : A n d Mr P a n d a y w a s o n e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e b e h in d th e a p p l ic a ti o n o r y o u d o n ’ t k n o w ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Chair as I said I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h o d e p o s e d t o t h e f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t a n d w h o m a d e a s u p p l e m e n t a r y. CHAIRPERSON : 10 O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S o C h a ir s o t h e i d e a w a s f o r m e t o a n ti - d a te th is w h ic h w o u ld h a v e i n v a l id a t e d th e a c tu a l 2 0 5 ’s a n d w h e n w e h a d t h e 2 0 5 ’s t h a t p u t t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s i n a p o s i t io n t o a c q u ir e t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n ts a n d t h e s e iz u r e o f th o s e e x h ib i ts , s o i t h a d th e p o t e n t i a l , i f I ’ d d o n e t h a t , i t h a d th e p o t e n t ia l t o c o m p r o m is e t h e e n t ir e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : B u t w a s h e n o t a s k in g y o u t o p u t a d a t e o n th e r e p o r t t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r i o r t o t h e 2 0 5 ’s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t ’s w h a t h e d i d C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : MAJOR B u t h o w w o u l d t h a t i n v a l id a te t h e 2 0 5 ’s ? GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So C h a ir the in f o r m a ti o n o n t h e r e p o r t i ts e l f w a s in f o r m a t io n a b o u t th a t y o u c o u l d o n ly h a v e a c q u ir e d b y m e a n s o f a 2 0 5 b e c a u s e i t w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OY SEN: Page 168 of 212 It w a s i n f o r m a t i o n 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p e r t a in in g t o t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y o k a y o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o i f th e y g a v e m e a p r o g r e s s r e p o r t w i t h t h e i r b a n k d e t a ils a n d I r e c e i v e d i t b e f o r e t h e d a t e o f t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r t h e 2 0 5 ’ s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : That means they a lr e a d y h a d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d th e n th e y a p p li e d f o r t h e 2 0 5 ’s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y th a n k y o u . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o I s a id t o h i m I d o n o t k n o w h o w f a r th is i n v e s t i g a t io n h a d g o n e b u t w h a t I w il l d o I w ill s p e a k t o t h e i n v e s ti g a to r o ffi c e r. A n d t h a t w a s t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n w e le f t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t w a s t h e p o i n t a b o u t t h e s e p ic tu r e s o f d e a d p e o p l e t h a t h e w a s s h o w in g y o u ? Wa s h e tr y i n g t o in t i m id a t e y o u o r threaten you, what was the point? 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir I t h i n k i t w a s a s u b tl e m e a n s o f tr y in g t o in t i m id a t e m e . H e c o m e s f r o m s u p p ly c h a in m a n a g e m e n t s o I d o n o t k n o w. I h a v e s e e n p le n ty d e a d b o d i e s I d o n o t k n o w h o w m a n y h e h a s s e e n b e in g fr o m s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t b u t I – l ik e I s a y t h e p h o to g r a p h s th a t I s a w w e r e a l l p e o p l e t h a t h a d b e e n e i t h e r s h o t b y p o lic e o r t h a t w e r e n o r m a l m u r d e r s c e n e s . Page 169 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o in t h e e n d th e r e q u e s t h e w a s m a k i n g t o y o u w a s t h a t y o u a s s is t h i m a n d w h o e v e r b y p u t t in g a d a t e o n th e r e p o r t t h a t o n t h e s e c o n d – o n t h e fir s t r e p o r t t h a t y o u g o t fr o m S o o b r a m o n e y p u t a d a t e th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r i o r t o t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 ’s a n d if y o u h a d a g r e e d t o d o t h a t t h a t c o u ld h a v e l e d t o th e i n v a li d a t io n o f t h e 2 0 5 ’s ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. B u t y o u p a r t e d o n t h e b a s is th a t y o u s a i d y o u w o u l d s p e a k t o s o m e b o d y – t o t h e in v e s t ig a t o r s ? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t o ld h i m I w il l s p e a k t o t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ffi c e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir w h e n I l e f t th a t m e e ti n g … A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : If I can just ensure I too u n d e r s t a n d t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g i v e n . Is i t c o r r e c t t h e n th a t i t w a s M r To s h a n P a n d a y ’s b a n k d e ta il s w h ic h f o u n d e d o r r a th e r w a s i m p o r t a n t t o th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a t h a n d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 20 I th i n k i t w a s b o th P a n d a y a n d M a d h o e ’s b a n k d e ta il s t h a t w a s i m p o r ta n t . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Thank you. I s i t th e n c o r r e c t t h a t a S e c ti o n 2 0 5 w a s n e c e s s a r y i n o r d e r t o o b ta in s u c h b a n k d e ta il s ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s i t t h e n a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t th e r e q u e s t t h a t w a s b e i n g m a d e t o y o u b y C o l o n e l M a d h o e to p r e d a te th e Page 170 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 r e p o r t w o u ld h a v e h a d t h e e ff e c t t o i n v a l i d a t e t h o s e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 subpoenas? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w o u l d i t t h e n b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t th e i n v a l id a ti o n o f th e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w o u l d h a v e c o m p r o m is e d t h e e n ti r e in v e s t i g a t io n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s m y v i e w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t in v a li d a t i o n a ll y o u m e a n is b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a c o u r t a p p l ic a ti o n p e n d i n g . 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Ja. CHAIRPERSON : I t w o u l d h a v e h e lp e d t h e c a s e o f t h o s e w h o w a n t e d t h e c o u r t to s e t a s id e t h e s e 2 0 5 a p p li c a t i o n s th a t is t h e p o i n t y o u a r e making? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSE N: J a th a t is o n e p o i n t C h a ir a n d a n o th e r p o i n t is i n t e r m s o f t h e d o c tr i n e o f th e fr u i t o f t h e p o is o n o u s tr e e . O n c e a 2 0 5 ’s f a i le d t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t s w o u l d h a v e f a il e d a n d t h e s e i z u r e o f t h o s e e x h i b i ts w o u ld h a v e b e e n – w e w o u ld h a v e h a d t o r e t u r n th o s e e x h i b i ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Which were vital to o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. What then tr a n s p ir e d o n c e y o u h a d t h is m e e ti n g w i th C o l o n e l M a d h o e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Page 171 of 212 C h a ir w h e n I le f t th e 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 m e e ti n g a n d a s I s a id m y o ff ic e w a s b a s i c a l ly t w o m i n u t e s a w a y fr o m t h e r e I i m m e d i a t e ly p h o n e d t h e in v e s ti g a ti n g o ffic e r w e ll t h e – S o o b r a m o n e y a n d Va n L o g g e n b e r g a n d a s k e d t h e m t o c o m e t o m y o ffic e . I a l s o p h o n e d C a p ta in P e l s e r b u t C a p t a i n P e l s e r s it s o n t h e s a m e fl o o r t h a t I – w h ic h I a m s i t t in g . H e is t h e c o o r d i n a to r f o r t h e S e c t io n 2 5 2 A a u t h o r i ti e s . S o I to l d h i m m e e t m e in m y o ff ic e I a m o n m y w a y. S o o n m y a r r iv a l a t t h e o ff ic e P e ls e r w a s a lr e a d y th e r e a n d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s j o i n e d s o o n a f te r w a r d s . I e x p l a i n e d to h i m e x a c t ly w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d a t t h e E l a n g e n i H o t e l . S o I s a id t o P e ls e r g o a n d 10 c o n ta c t t h e D P P ’s o ff ic e s o l o n g a n d g e t u s a u t h o r i ty f o r i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 2 5 2 A o f t h e C PA . N o w C h a i r w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n s w i t h s t in g o p e r a ti o n s w i th th e d r u g r e la t e d m a t t e r s w e n o r m a l ly g e t v e r b a l a u t h o r i ty a n d t h e n i n v a r ia b l y I w i ll g e t a c a l l fr o m t h e D P P ’s o ff ic e t h e y s t il l w a i ti n g f o r t h e a ffi d a v i t s . I n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r in s ta n c e I i m m e d i a te ly w e n t a n d s a t d o w n a n d d r a f te d m y a ff id a v it a s t o w h a t h a d o c c u r r e d a t t h e h o te l . I t w a s s e n t t h r o u g h t o th e D P P ’s o ff ic e A d v o c a te N e l w h o t h e n a u t h o r is e d 2 5 2 e n g a g e m e n t w it h M a d h o e o n w a r d s . I a l s o t o l d … CHAIRPERSON : 2 5 2 b e in g t h e o p e r a ti o n t h a t y o u a n d M o s t e r t tr ie d with Panday and it did not work? 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A v e r y s i m i la r o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a s i m il a r k i n d o f o p e r a ti o n . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : That is right. B e c a u s e I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t w o u l d c o m e o f th o s e i n i t ia l d i s c u s s i o n s about me assisting them. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 172 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I a ls o s a i d to t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r t h a t h e s h o u l d d o c u m e n t e v e r y t h in g t h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d a t th e h o t e l i n t h e a c tu a l d o c k e t f o r la t e r r e f e r e n c e s . Th a t s a m e a f t e r n o o n t h e D P P h a d a u th o r is e d th e S e c t io n 2 5 2 a u t h o r is a ti o n – it a u t h o r is e d t h e e n g a g e m e n t w i t h M a d h o e . C h a ir t h e f o l lo w in g d a y I h a d a m e e t in g a t N a ti o n a l h e a d o ffi c e a n d I fir s t w e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s i n P r e to r i a n o w ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s in P r e t o r ia . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : I a m n o w s ti ll in D u r b a n . S o th e f o l lo w i n g m o r n i n g I fir s t w e n t t o my o ff ic e a n d c l e a r e d m y d e s k a n d t h e n t o g o t o t h e m e e ti n g w h e n I r e c e i v e d a c a l l a n d o n e o f m y o t h e r w a r r a n t o ff ic e r s fr o m m y o ff ic e p i c k e d u p th e p h o n e – m y p h o n e – m y c e l l p h o n e a n d h e g a v e i t m e a n d h e s a id t o m e i t is Colonel Madhoe. S o I to o k t h e p h o n e a n d M a d h o e s a id t o m e I m u s t c o m e d o w n t o th e b a s e m e n t o f th e b u il d i n g w h e r e o u r c a r s a r e p a r k e d . S o I w e n t d o w n a n d w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e h e w a s t h e r e in h i s c a r. S o I g o t i n to th e c a r w i t h h i m a n d h e t h e n s a i d t o m e d i d I f in d my r e p o r t ? A n d I l ie d t o h i m , I s a i d n o I c a n n o t fi n d m y r e p o r t . T h e o n e t h a t t h e y 20 w a n t e d m e t o a l t e r. S o h e le n t o v e r b a c k w a r d s a n d t o o k a n e n v e l o p e fr o m t h e b a c k s e a t, a b i g b r o w n e n v e l o p e w h ic h h e h a n d e d t o m e a n d h e s a i d to m e t h e r e p o r t – t h a t r e p o r t t h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r is in s i d e t h is e n v e l o p e . Th e o n e I n o w h a d t o p u t t h e d a t e s ta m p o n . CHAIRPERSON : Just before you proceed. Wa s i t s tr a n g e t h a t s o m e b o d y a t h is l e v e l w o u l d c a ll y o u t o c o m e t o h i m d o w n s ta ir s o r w a s Page 173 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e r e s o m e p r e v i o u s d is c u s s i o n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t is – n o C h a ir t h a t is – i t j u s t d o e s n o t w o r k l ik e th a t i n t h e p o lic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h e r e a C o l o n e l c a ll s a General down to the basement. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h a t I th o u g h t w a s s tr a n g e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Ja. CHAIRPERSON : But you went anyway? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I p l a y e d a lo n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Because we had the 2 5 2 A’s in p l a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I a s s u m e y o u w e r e s ti ll g o i n g to c o n t a c t h i m in o r d e r fo r y o u t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts w h e r e y o u w o u l d m e e t s o t h a t y o u c o u ld e x e c u t e y o u r 2 0 5 2 A ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : J a C h a ir th e m e e t in g h a p p e n e d o n th e d a y. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN : And early the f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g I w a s p r e p a r i n g fo r a n a t io n a l m e e ti n g s o t h a t w a s n o t f o r e f r o n t i n my m i n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : h i m w h e n I g e t – w h e n I g o t b a c k fr o m P r e t o r i a . Page 174 of 212 I intended engaging 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : When you came back. Ye s s o – b u t w h e n h e c a l le d you and asked you to come downstairs you were ready t o use your o p e r a ti o n a lr e a d y o r n o t r e a ll y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W e l l C h a ir d e p e n d i n g w h a t e m a n a t e d fr o m t h e r e a l o t o f t h i n g s c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d . I d id n o t k n o w w h y h e h a d c a ll e d m e d o w n t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : But you went there. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B u t b e th a t a s it m a y w e h a d a 2 5 2 i n o p e r a ti o n s o . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : It would have covered a n y e v e n t u a li ty t h a t w o u ld h a v e f lo w e d fr o m t h e r e o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e g a v e y o u a b r o w n e n v e l o p e a n d s a i d th a t r e p o r t t h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t is i n s i d e t h e e n v e l o p e ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h e n I – w e h a d 20 a g e n e r a l d is c u s s i o n I s a i d t o h i m y o u k n o w t h i n g s d o e s n o t a lw a y s c o m e f o r f r e e o r s o – w o r d s t o th a t e ff e c t a n d t h e n h e s a id n o , n o … CHAIRPERSON : Who was saying that now? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I s a id t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Page 175 of 212 Then he said to me, 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n o P a n d a y h a d – I t h i n k h e s a i d – ja P a n d a y h a d t w o b a r a v a i la b le fo r m e f o r m y c o o p e r a ti o n . O h n o h e d i d n o t s a y t h a t a t t h a t s ta g e . Fi r s t w h a t h e s a id i s , h e s a i d t o m e h o w m u c h d o I w a n t ? N o w C h a ir i n m y w h o le p o li c e c a r e e r n o - o n e h a s e v e r a s k e d m e w h a t I w a n t o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : A n d it w a s v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o s a y t h e w o r d s . S o I s a id t o h i m l o o k w h a t I a m g o i n g t o d o is I a m g o i n g t o s e n d y o u a te x t m e s s a g e a n d t h e n I a m g o i n g t o p u t a 10 fi g u r e t h e r e a n d th e n y o u c a n a d d a c o u p l e o f n o u g h ts t o w h ic h w e a g r e e d . A n d t h e n I l e f t. I t h e n p h o n e d t h e in v e s ti g a t in g o ffic e r a n d I s a i d t o h i m t o c o m e t o m y o ff ic e i m m e d i a te ly a n d I g a v e – b e c a u s e I h a d m y r e p o r t . I h a d l i e d t o h i m a b o u t n o t h a v i n g h a d i t . S o I s a i d to t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r t h i s Va n L o g g e n b e r g I s a i d t o h i m , H a n s ta k e t h is t h i n g s e n d i t to f o r e n s ic s s e e i f y o u c a n f i n d D N A o r fi n g e r p r i n ts o n t h e e n v e l o p e o r w h a t i s i n s id e t h e e n v e l o p e w h ic h h e d id . About a w e e k la t e r Va n L o g g e n b e r g p h o n e d m e t h a t t h e f in g e r p r i n ts fo u n d o n t h e e n v e lo p e w a s n o t th o s e o f – w e l l n o w t h e f i n g e r p r i n ts fo u n d in s i d e on the document were not those of Madhoe the Colonel who had given 20 it t o m e . S o I s a i d t o h i m , l o o k w h e r e c a n w e g e t a s e t o f f i n g e r p r in ts fr o m To s h a n P a n d a y ? A n d h e s a i d t o m e c o m e t o t h i n k o f i t w h e n t h e y s e a r c h e d h is p r e m is e s e a r li e r o n t h e r e w e r e a s e t o f f i n g e r p r in ts l y i n g t h e r e b e c a u s e h e h a d a p p l i e d f o r a f ir e a r m l i c e n c e a n d t h e y h a d t a k e n t h a t . S o I s a i d to h i m w e ll s e n d t h a t t o t h e f in g e r p r i n t d e p a r t m e n t le t them compare that. A n d I th in k i t w a s a b o u t a w e e k a ft e r t h a t h e Page 176 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p h o n e d m e b a c k a n d h e s a id t o m e – i t w a s l a te i n th e a ft e r n o o n h e s a i d t o m e t h e r e p o r t h a d c o m e b a c k . Th e f in g e r p r i n ts o n t h e d o c u m e n t – m y p r o g r e s s r e p o r t w h ic h w a s i n t h e e n v e l o p e th e f in g e r p r i n ts m a tc h e d t h o s e o f To s h a n P a n d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u h a d – y o u h a d o p e n e d t h e e n v e lo p e t h a t C o l o n e l M a d h o e h a d g i v e n y o u ? A t s o m e s t a g e y o u o p e n e d i t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : No. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t o p e n i t ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 10 N o C h a ir I n e v e r o p e n e d it I g a v e it … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g a v e i t to … M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : J u s t li k e t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a s i t w a s ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Ja I never opened it. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y b u t s o m e b o d y d i d o p e n it a t s o m e s t a g e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I t w a s o p e n e d a t th e lo c a l c r i m i n a l r e c o r d c e n tr e b y th e fi n g e r p r in t e x p e r t s . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s o k a y. O k a y. S o t h e y a c t u a l ly fo u n d t h e r e p o r t t h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t in s i d e o r w h a t ? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : The same report C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s a m e r e p o r t ja o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e s a m e r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u r d is c u s s i o n w it h C o l o n e l Page 177 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M a d h o e e n t a il e d y o u p r o v i d i n g a n u m b e r c a n y o u p l e a s e g iv e m o r e d e t a i l i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t t r a n s p i r e d th e r e a f t e r ? CHAIRPERSON : D i d y o u s e n d M a d h o e th e fi g u r e t h a t y o u h a d p r o m is e d t o s e n d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : N o C h a ir s o w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e fo ll o w e d m o r n i n g I t h e n l e f t t o g o h o m e a n d b a c k m y b a g s a n d fly t o P r e t o r ia . I f l e w t o P r e t o r i a a n d t h e n t h e fo ll o w i n g m o r n in g I w a s a c t u a l ly s i t t in g w i th G e n e r a l D r a m a t a t – i n t h e v e n u e w h e r e w e w e r e h a v in g t h e m e e t in g w h e n I r e c e i v e d a te x t m e s s a g e fr o m 10 C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d h e t y p e d li k e t h e k i d s ty p e n o w a d a y s w it h th e s e s h o r t a b b r e v i a ti o n s . H i G e n e r a l d i d n o t k n o w y o u h a d g o n e w h e n y o u b a c k t h a t f u n n y l a n g u a g e a n d h e s a id – a n d t h e n h e e n d e d o ff t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h a 2 i n b r a c k e ts . A n d th e n I – b y t h e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s – h a d b e e n a l e r te d t o m y e n g a g e m e n t s w it h M a d h o e s o I s ti ll w e n t a n d s h o w e d h i m t h e t e x t m e s s a g e t h a t I h a d ju s t r e c e iv e d . And we a c t u a ll y j o k e d a b o u t i t b e c a u s e I th o u g h t t h e y – t h e y t h o u g h t I w a s c h e a p b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e g o in g to g iv e m e R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 f o r a R 6 0 m i ll io n in v e s t i g a t io n . C h a ir o k a y a f te r th a t I w e n t b a c k to D u r b a n a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t m e to p r o c e e d a f t e r th a t ? 20 CHAIRPERSON : O h y o u d i d n o t r e s p o n d i m m e d i a te ly to t h e – t o th e m e s s a g e fr o m M a d h o e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOOYSEN : C h a ir I d id a n d a ll t h o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly b e e n c a p tu r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Page 178 of 212 Between him and 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 m y s e l f i t f o r m s p a r t o f t h e e v id e n c e i n t h e d o c k e t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e a c tu a l s m s ’s , t h e ti m e li n e s h a v e a l l b e e n c a p t u r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e p r o c e e d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I a m tr y i n g t o fi n d o u t w h e r e I a m n o w. A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u a r e o n p a g e 1 2 p a r a g r a p h 10 3 9 . Al t e r n a t iv e l y w e c o u l d l o o k t o … M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y. S o C h a ir a f te r that I… A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : B l o c k 2 3 . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Sorry? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s a y i t is b l o c k 2 3 o r t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h b u t p l e a s e c o n t in u e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o C h a ir a n d a n o th e r engagement that I had with Ma dhoe and I must m e n ti o n now s i m u l t a n e o u s t o my e n g a g e m e n t w i th h i m w e a r e a l s o r u n n i n g t h e A c t 20 7 0 i n t e r c e p t i o n s . S o C o l o n e l P a d i a c h i fr o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e is t e ll in g m e e x a c tl y h o w t h e y d is c u s s i n g – h o w t h e y h a v e … CHAIRPERSON : O k a y I a m s o r r y I k n o w t h a t y o u s a id t h a t th e in t e r a c ti o n b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f y o u is c a p t u r e d a n d i s i n s o m e d o c k e t . D o w e h a v e t h a t a n y w h e r e h e r e o r i t is s o m e w h e r e e ls e a n d w e w il l g e t it s o m e o th e r s t a g e ? Page 179 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir th e d o c k e t th a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t … CHAIRPERSON : Is current? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t is th e – a n d I a m g o i n g t o ta lk a b o u t t h a t la t e r in m y e v id e n c e b e c a u s e th a t d o c k e t b e c a m e a b i g is s u e e v e n t u a l ly. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Th a t d o c k e t a s w e s p e a k i s w i th A d v o c a t e W e n d y O ’ B r ia n fr o m t h e S p e c i a lis e d C o m m e r c i a l 10 C r i m e C o u r t i n D u r b a n b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t th e y a r e n o w p r e p a r in g a f t e r s e v e n y e a r s a p r o s e c u t i o n in t h e s e m a t t e r s a n d C h a i r i t is v a s t v o l u m e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y w e l l w e – w e n e e d t o fi n d a w a y o f l e a v i n g o u t w h a t w e g e t a n d w h a t w e m ig h t n o t g e t o u t o f t h a t . W e j u s t n e e d to fi n d a w a y o f c o n n e c t i n g t h e s t o r y. Yo u h a d r e c e iv e d a m e s s a g e f r o m C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d a t s o m e s t a g e I a s s u m e y o u r e v e r t e d to h i m a n d t h e n s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d . Ar e y o u a b l e t o s a y, I d id r e v e r t to h i m a n d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t w e h a v e h a d a n o th e r e n g a g e m e n t o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t ? I ju s t w a n t t o s e e e v e n i f w e a r e n o t g o i n g in t o th e c o n t e n ts . 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O k a y. CHAIRPER SON: Of the messages. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : S o C h a ir t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g is a t t h e h o te l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g is Page 180 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e f o l lo w i n g m o r n i n g w h e r e h e g iv e s m e t h e r e p o r t i n t h e e n v e l o p e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e b u il d i n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t h e n g o t o Pr e to r i a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u g e t th e m e s s a g e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Subsequent to that we had another engagement. M o s t o f t h e e n g a g e m e n ts w e r e i n it i a t e d b y him. And at a follow up engagement when we discussed now… CHAIRPERSON : T h e e n g a g e m e n t is i n a m e e t i n g f o r m o r j u s t t a lk i n g on the phone? 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : No it is in cars. CHAIRPERSON : Sorry? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : It w a s a lw a y s i n c a r s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : C l a n d e s ti n e t h e r e i n t h e b a s e m e n t . T h e s e m e e ti n g s t o o k p la c e in t h e b a s e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : T h e r e w e r e o th e r s u b s e q u e n t m e e t in g s t h a t t o o k p l a c e a t M c D o n a l d s b u t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r 20 o n e to o k – a ls o to o k p l a c e i n t h e b a s e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : After I had returned fr o m P r e t o r ia I e n g a g e d w i t h h i m a g a i n a l s o i n t h e b a s e m e n t. H e th e n g a v e m e a n o th e r h a r d d r iv e i n w h ic h h e s a i d th e r e a r e m o r e p h o to s o n the thing. Page 181 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 CHAIRPERSON : Of dead people? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a n d I g u e s s t h is ti m e d o y o u a s k h i m w h a t is th e p o i n t a b o u t th is o r y o u s t il l d o n o t a s k h i m ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : N o , n o I w a s p l a y in g a l o n g w i t h th e r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n te r ms o f t h e 2 5 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u p r e t e n d y o u w e r e s c a r e d ? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o r r y C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u p r e t e n d y o u w e r e s c a r e d b y t h is ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : N o n o t r e a lly C h a ir I ju s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : C h a ir a n d a t o n e o f t h e s e s u b s e q u e n t e n g a g e m e n ts h e s a i d t o m e , n o To s h a n P a n d a y h a d t w o b a r a v a il a b l e f o r m y c o o p e r a ti o n i n t h i s m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o b a r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 20 Tw o b a r. So I know w h a t tw o b a r is . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h a t … M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o t w o b a r i n m y m in d is R 2 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : But I thought he does Page 182 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n o t k n o w w h a t t w o b a r is b e c a u s e I – I m e a n n o - o n e g iv e s y o u R 2 m il li o n . S o I th o u g h t m a y b e h e i s t h in k i n g R 2 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o my u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o g i v e m e R 2 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 to s ig n t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d p u t a d a te o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. CHAIRPERSON : C h a ir i t c o n ti n u e d I h a d a n u m b e r o f m e e t i n g s w it h h i m a n d th e d a y b e f o r e w e d id t h e a c t u a l s t i n g o p e r a t io n o n e o f m y 10 d e t e c t iv e s w a s s h o t a n d k i ll e d a n d I a tt e n d e d t h e f u n e r a l. H e a ls o came to the funeral. CHAIRPERSON : Around those days? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : It w a s a l l i n t h e s p a c e o f a w e e k , w e e k a n d a h a l f C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : And we are around mid-2010 or where are we now? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : The 2010 August 2010 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 ja . A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u l d … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o g o b a c k i f I m a y. T h e m e s s a g e t h a t y o u h a d r e c e i v e d fr o m C o l o n e l M a d h o e w h e n y o u w e r e w i th G e n e r a l D r a m a t w h e r e th e r e w a s a t w o is t h a t t h e o n e t h a t m a d e y o u t h in k h e w a s t a lk in g a b o u t R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e n I t h o u g h t it w a s R20,000,00, Page 183 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : Only put the 2 there C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : B u t th e n w h e n h e s u b s e q u e n t ly t o l d m e 2 b a r t h e n I t h o u g h t n o t h is m a n d o e s n o t k n o w what 2 bar is. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : M a y b e h e is m e a n in g 10 R 2 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN : J u s t o n e c o r r e c ti o n t h is is n o w i n 2 0 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h 2 0 11 j a o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSE L BOOYSEN: C h a ir o n t h e d a y b e f o r e w e d i d t h e a c t u a l o p e r a ti o n w h i c h I w ill r e f e r t o a s t h e s ti n g o p e r a ti o n o r t w o d a y s b e f o r e th a t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r I m e t h i m a t t h e f u n e r a l . W e ll h e c a m e t o t h e f u n e r a l. A n d a f t e r t h e f u n e r a l h e c a m e u p t o m e a n d h e s a i d to m e I m u s t n o t f o r g e t to w r i t e a n d h e g a v e m e t h e 20 date. C H A I R P E R S O N : To b a c k d a te t h e r e p o r t? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : s p e c i f ic d a t e . Ja but he wanted a A n d I t o o k th is v e r y p e n w h ic h I a l w a y s c a r r y w it h m e a n d I to o k i t o u t a n d I s a id to h i m g iv e m e a p i e c e o f p a p e r. S o h e t o o k o u t h is w a l l e t a n d h e g a v e m e a p ie c e o f p a p e r a n d h e g a v e m e t h e Page 184 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d a t e w h ic h I w r o te d o w n o n t h e p ie c e o f p a p e r. S o h e s a id o k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . O k a y s o n o w I w i ll n o t fo r g e t . W h e n I l e f t – w h e n h e l e f t t u r n e d t h e p i e c e o f p a p e r a r o u n d a n d it w a s a n AT M s li p fr o m h is b a n k account. CHAIRPERSON : H’m. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : So on my return back t o m y o ffi c e I c a l l e d t h e in v e s ti g a t o r a n d I s a i d t o h i m t a k e t h is AT M s li p a n d w e c a n u s e i t a s a n e x h i b i t l a te r o n b e c a u s e w h e r e w o u l d I h a v e g o t t e n h is AT M s li p ? 10 S o th e i n v e s ti g a to r s to o k t h a t . Chair the day b e f o r e th e a c t u a l s ti n g o p e r a t i o n I m e t h i m f o r t h e la s t t i m e a t M c D o n a l d s a t G a te w a y i n D u r b a n N o r th . I t h in k w e s a t i n m y c a r a n d t h e n w e h a d a d i s c u s s io n a s t o w h e r e w e g o i n g d o t h i s n o w ? Where t h e y g o in g t o g iv e m e t h e m o n e y a n d I a m g o i n g t o g iv e h i m t h is document. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b a c k d a t e d r e p o r t? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : At that stage you had no t backdated – you had not backdated it M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t y e t C h a ir, n o t y e t 20 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : S o h e w a n t e d a g a in h e s a i d to m e I th i n k h e s a i d w e s h o u l d g o to t h e J a p a n e s e G a r d e n s w h ic h is r ig h t n e x t to H y p e r b y t h e S e a w h e r e t h e J a y p o r e R e s ta u r a n t is . S o I s a i d to h i m n o l e t u s r a t h e r g o t o t h e c a s i n o i n t h e b a s e m e n t o f Page 185 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t h e c a s in o . A n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I d i d t h a t is b e c a u s e I k n o w th e p e o p l e a t t h e c a s i n o a n d I k n e w t h a t th e y w o u ld b e c o o p e r a ti v e f o r u s t o u s e t h e ir C C T V fo o t a g e . A n d h e a g r e e d to th a t. Th e n I s a i d t o h i m o k a y n o w h o w a r e w e g o i n g t o d o t h is ? N o w f ir s t o f a l l h e i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t d u r i n g o n e t h e s e d is c u s s io n s t h e y c o u l d p u t t h e m o n e y in m y k id s a c c o u n t o r p u t it i n m y fr ie n d s a c c o u n t a n d I k n e w if w e d o a s t in g o p e r a ti o n a n d m o n e y g e t s tr a n s f e r r e d t o m y a c c o u n t t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e n o – n o d i r e c t l in k . S o I s ti ll s a i d t o h i m n o I w a n t e d c a s h . A n d I s a i d t o h i m a t o n e s t a g e I w a n t i t in R 2 0 0 , 0 0 n o t e s . H e la t e r c a m e b a c k 10 a n d s a id t o m e n o th e y – t h e r e is a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e R 2 0 0 , 0 0 n o te s a t t h e b a n k w h ic h a t t h e ti m e w a s in d e e d s o b u t I e s t a b li s h e d la t e r o n t h a t t h e r e w a s a d i ff e r e n t r e a s o n w h y th e y c o u l d n o t g i v e m e R 2 0 0 ,0 0 n o t e s . S o h e s a i d n o t h e y c o u l d o n ly g e t R 1 0 0 , 0 0 n o t e s a n d R 5 0 ,0 0 n o t e s s o I s a i d i t is fi n e . A n d t h e n t h e d a y b e f o r e w e s a id o k a y h o w a r e w e g o i n g t o d o th is ? I s a i d – h e s a i d t o m e h e is g o i n g t o p u t i t in a d u ff le b a g . I s a i d n o , n o d o n o t p u t i t i n a d u ffl e b a g w h y d o y o u n o t r a th e r g e t s o m e p h o t o c o p y b o x e s fr o m y o u r o ffi c e p u t t h e m o n e y i n s id e t h e r e . A n d t h a t is w h a t w e a g r e e d t o d o . A n d th e n I s a i d t o h i m o k a y w h a t I w il l d o is I w i ll g i v e y o u t h e d o c u m e n t in t h e m o r n i n g th e n y o u g i v e m e t h e 1 5 0 20 and… C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o w h a v i n g t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n a t t h e b a s e m e n t of… M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o , n o th is is n o w a t McDonalds. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s ti ll in t h e c a r ? Page 186 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n th e c a r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o I s a id t o h i m g iv e m e – y o u g iv e m e t h e 1 5 0 I w ill t h e n g iv e y o u t h e d o c u m e n t t h e n i f y o u a r e h a p p y w i th i t y o u c a n p a y m e th e b a l a n c e o f th e 5 0 i n t h e a ft e r n o o n . Th e n h e s a i d to m e h e y I s a i d R 2 m il li o n w h a t d i d y o u t h i n k ? T h e n i t d a w n e d u p o n m e h e i s a c t u a l ly ta lk i n g a b o u t R 2 m i ll io n . T h e n I s a i d n o , n o th a t is w h a t I t h o u g h t . B u t I r e a ll y t h o u g h t i t w a s R 2 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . T h e n i t r e a l ly d a w n e d o n m e i t i s a c t u a l ly R 2 m i ll io n . S o 10 C h a ir t h e n w e d e p a r te d . I l e ft fr o m th e r e I w e n t s tr a i g h t to t h e c a s in o w h e r e I s p o k e to a Mr C h r is t o Va n R o o y e n w h o i s in c h a r g e o f s u r v e il la n c e th e r e . I t o ld h i m l o o k w e a r e b u s y w it h a n o p e r a ti o n t h e y m u s t m a k e s u r e th a t t h o s e c a m e r a s a r e a l l w o r k i n g a n d w e a g r e e d e v e r y t h i n g . C h a ir th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is n o w t h e a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f y o u th a t is y o u r s e l f a n d C o l o n e l M a d h o e w a s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o g o t o t h e c a s in o t h e f o l lo w i n g d a y ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN : So after I had a r r a n g e d w i th M r Va n R o o y e n a t th e c a s i n o I w e n t h o m e . D u r i n g th a t w e e k t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s a w a y i n Pr e t o r i a a n d I w a s t h e – being the Deputy she had appointed me as the acting Provincial C o m m i s s i o n e r s o I w a s w e a r in g t w o h a ts in t h e – d u r i n g t h a t w e e k . I h a v e t o a d d C h a ir e v e r y s i n g l e m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d w i t h M a d h o e w a s Page 187 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 d o n e b y p r io r a r r a n g e m e n t w it h th e D P P ’s o ff ic e . T h e y w e r e i n fo r m e d e x c e p t t h e o n e ti m e w h e n h e c a ll e d m e d o w n t o th e b a s e m e n t t h e r e w a s n o t t i m e t o – b u t I i m m e d i a t e ly in f o r m e d t h e m a f t e r w a r d s . But every o th e r e n g a g e m e n t b e f o r e I w o u l d g o I w o u ld in f o r m P e ls e r, C a p ta in P e ls e r he would inform the D P P ’s o ffi c e they would record it a c c o r d i n g l y a n d I w o u l d in f o r m th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ffic e r i n t h e m a i n c o r r u p ti o n d o c k e t . A f t e r I h a d e n g a g e d w i t h M a d h o e I w o u l d o n c e a g a i n p h o n e P e l s e r b a c k a n d g a v e h i m f e e d b a c k v e r b a l ly o n t h e p h o n e a n d I w o u ld p h o n e th e i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ff ic e r a n d t e l l h i m t o d i a r is e in h is d i a r y 10 e x a c tl y w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d o n t h a t d a y. O n th e d a y t h a t t h e s ti n g o p e r a ti o n w a s s e t t o b e d o n e th a t – I th i n k th a t w a s t h e o n e a n d o n ly ti m e t h a t I e n g a g e d h i m , t h e i n i t ia t iv e c a m e fr o m m e . S o I p h o n e d h i m in t h e m o r n i n g I s a id t o h i m l o o k I a m r e a d y fo r th is n o w, m e e t m e i n the basement. So I met him in the basement of Pr o v i n c i a l h e a d q u a r t e r s , p o lic e h e a d q u a r t e r s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d y o u c a n n o t a t t h is s t a g e r e m e m b e r t h e d a te o r y o u h a v e g o t th e d a t e s o m e w h e r e ? A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 40. 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BO OYSEN : J a i t is o n t h e 8 S e p te m b e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : 8 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 0 ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : 2 0 11 n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 j a o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o C h a ir n o w I – I h a d Page 188 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t o p l a y w i t h ti m e b e c a u s e I h a d t o g e t p e o p l e i n p o s i t io n a n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly – w e ll w h y I h a d t o g e t p e o p l e in p o s i ti o n w e w e r e r e a d y t o g o t o t h e c a s in o . H e t h e n t e l ls m e a l l o f a s u d d e n n o , n o , n o h e d o e s n o t w a n t to g o t o t h e c a s in o b e c a u s e t h e r e m i g h t b e c a m e r a s . S o it p u t – I w a s o ff g u a r d n o w b e c a u s e n o w I h a d t o c h a n g e m y p la n s v e r y q u ic k ly. S o h e o n c e a g a in s u g g e s t e d t h e J a p a n e s e – I s a i d – t h e Japanese Gardens. I said hey why do we not just do it here in the b a s e m e n t ? A n d h e s a i d t o m e a r e y o u o k a y w i th th a t ? I s a i d n o I a m okay with that. 10 S o I s a i d t o h i m l o o k I a m t h e a c ti n g P r o v i n c ia l Commissioner I am very busy so let me go up and just sort out the c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d th e m e e ti n g a n d t h e n I w i ll p h o n e y o u w h e n I a m r e a d y. B u t th e i d e a w a s fo r m e n o w t o g e t a l l t h e d e t e c tiv e s in p l a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a r e d e p lo y t h e p e o p l e . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. So in the building where I work if you stand across the road you can lo o k u p i n t o t h e b a s e m e n t a r e a . It is n o t c lo s e d o ff. S o I s a id t o h i m I a m g o i n g t o r e v e r s e m y c a r i n s o t h a t w o u ld m a k e i t e a s i e r f o r w h o e v e r is g o i n g to o b s e r v e u s fr o m t h e b o t to m t o s e e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . S o I said I am going to reverse my car in and then you reverse in next to 20 m e a n d t h e n w e c a n d o t h e b u s in e s s in t h e b a s e m e n t . A n d h e a g r e e d . I w e n t u p s t a i r s a t t h a t s t a g e C o l o n e l L e n S h e r i ff h e d e a l t w i th th a t p a r t ic u l a r o p e r a ti o n . I p h o n e d h i m I s a id t o h i m L e n y o u g u y s n e e d t o g e t in p l a c e w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o th e c a s in o a n y l o n g e r t h i s is g o i n g t o h a p p e n i n – a t P r o v i n c i a l h e a d q u a r te r s in t h e – i n t h e b a s e m e n t . So t h e y h u r r i e d l y h a d t o c h a n g e th e i r p l a n s . T h e y g o t p e o p le i n t o p o s it i o n Page 189 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o n th e f ir e e s c a p e , a t t h e e x it to t h e b u i ld in g a n d th e y a ls o h a d p e o p l e a c r o s s th e r o a d t o o b s e r v e n o w h o w t h e tr a n s a c ti o n ta k e s p l a c e a n d t h e n i t w a s r o u n d a b o u t 1 2 o ’ c l o c k w h e n t h e S h e r i ff p h o n e d m e a n d h e s a i d t o m e t h e y a r e i n p la c e n o w. S o I p h o n e d M a d h o e a n d I s a id t o h i m o k a y I a m r e a d y to c o m e d o w n a n d m e e t y o u a n d I t h o u g h t h e – I t h o u g h t h e w a s s t il l s o m e d i s t a n c e a w a y a n d h e s a i d to m e n o , n o , n o . I a m h e r e a lr e a d y. S o I t h o u g h t I h o p e h e d i d n o t s e e a l l th e a c ti v i ty a r o u n d t h e b u il d i n g b u t fo r t u n a t e l y i t i s a v e r y b u s in e s s / b u s in e s s a r e a . S o h e d id n o t p ic k u p t h e a c tiv i ty o f t h e p e o p l e g e t ti n g i n t o p o s i ti o n . 10 S o C h a ir j u s t b e f o r e I l e ft th e o ffi c e m y b r o th e r w h o i s a p r i v a t e d e t e c t iv e w a lk e d i n a n d h e s a i d to m e – I s a i d M a r i u s I c a n n o t t a lk n o w. I a m b u s y w i th a s ti n g o p e r a ti o n a n d h e is o n e o f t h e s e g a d g e t g u y s and he said to me have you got a camera and I said no. He said do y o u w a n t o n e . I s a id y e s a n d h e g a v e m e a k e y h o l d e r w i t h a c a m e r a i n a n d t h e r e w a s n o t i m e to d o a c r a s h c o u r s e i n h o w th e c a m e r a w o r k e d . I ju s t s a i d s w i tc h it o n a n d l e a v e it o n . S o I t o o k t h i s th i n g a n d I w a lk e d o b v i o u s ly n o w w it h th e d o c u m e n t w h ic h I h a d e n d o r s e d w h ic h I p u t i n a n e n v e l o p e . G o t i n to th e l i ft a n d o n e o f t h e G e n e r a l s w a s i n t h e li f t w i t h m e . O n e o f th e l a d i e s n o t t h e P C a n d s h e w a s t a l k i n g to m e o n 20 t h e w a y d o w n a n d m y m in d w a s s o m e w h e r e e ls e a n d w e b o th e x i te d o n t h e s a m e f l o o r a n d w e w a lk e d o u t b u t a s I w a lk e d o u t I n o t ic e d m y c a r is s ta n d i n g t h e r e a n d h is c a r i s n o t n e x t t o m i n e . S o a s I g o t in t o t h e b a s e m e n t I l o o k e d t o m y l e f t a n d h is c a r w a s s t a n d i n g t h e r e a n d h e w a s h a l fw a y o u t o f t h e c a r. S o h e a li g h t e d fr o m th e v e h ic l e a n d th e G e n e r a l w a lk e d to h e r r i g h t a n d h e s a id to m e it i s s a f e h e r e a n d I k n e w i f w e Page 190 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 w e r e g o i n g t o d o i t t h e r e th e p e o p l e a c r o s s t h e r o a d w o u ld n o t s e e u s b e c a u s e I w a s g o i n g t o t o u c h m y h e a d a s a s in g le f o r t h e m t o p o u n c e . S o I j u s t c a r r i e d o n w a l k i n g to w a r d s m y c a r a n d I s a id n o , n o c o m e a n d p a r k y o u r c a r n e x t to m i n e a n d I h a d th is c a m e r a o n th e w h o le ti m e a n d s o h e r e v e r s e d i n n e x t to m y c a r a n d h e w a i t e d f o r t h i s o t h e r G e n e r a l t o d is a p p e a r f r o m o u r s i g h t . H e t h e n g o t o u t o f th e c a r, w a l k e d t o t h e b o o t o f h is c a r, o p e n e d t h e b o o t o f h is c a r. I o p e n e d th e b o o t t o m y c a r. H e th e n t o o k o u t w h i c h a p p e a r e d t o b e a b r a n d n e w s u i tc a s e . S o h e p u t i t i n th e b o o t o f m y c a r a n d b e c a u s e th e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s t h a t 10 h e w o u ld c o m e w it h b o x e s I s t il l a s k e d h i m - a n d t h a t i s a l l r e c o d e d . I s a i d w h e r e d i d y o u g e t t h i s a n d h e s a i d I b o u g h t i t a n d th e w a y h e s p o k e I c o u l d n o t . I s a i d w h a t . H e s a id I b o u g h t i t . H e b o u g h t it . I s a i d o k a y b u t n o w I a m s c a r e d th a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g to tr y a n d b a m b o o z le m e . So I said to him he must open the sui tcase I want to s e e t h e m o n e y b e c a u s e I w a s s c a r e d th e r e m ig h t b e b r ic k s o r s o m e t h i n g e l s e i n t h e s u i t – h e h a d a li t tl e lo c k a n d h e o p e n e d i t – h e opened it and it was packed with notes. So I said to him okay close it, c lo s e d m y b o o t a n d I to o k th e e n v e l o p e a n d I o p e n e d a n d I s li d t h e p i e c e o f p a p e r o u t lik e t h a t a n d i t i s a l l o n c a m e r a a n d I a m a c t u a l ly 20 h o l d i n g t h e c a m e r a in h is f a c e n o w a n d I r e a d t h e d a t e a n d t h e s ta m p t h e r e t o h i m a n d h e s a id t o m e h u n d r e d s a s w e . CHAIRPERSON : He said/ MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: meaning 100 percent. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Page 191 of 212 He s a id hundreds 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And I handed him the d o c u m e n t . H e t h e n g o t i n to h is c a r a n d I s t a r t e d w a l k i n g t o w a r d s t h e li f t n o w a n d I w a s e x p e c t i n g – I n e v e r r e a l i s e d t h a t t h e y h a d p l a c e d d e t e c t iv e s o n t h e fi r e e s c a p e . I t h o u g h t t h e y w e r e g o i n g to a r r e s t h i m o r b l o c k h i m w h e n h e e m e r g e d f r o m t h e b u il d i n g w it h h is c a r. S o I . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n t h e in d i c a t io n . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I touched my head a n d t h e n I t h o u g h t I h o p e t h e s e p e o p l e a n d I w a s a c tu a lly s la p p i n g m y s e l f o f fr u s tr a t i o n b u t I c a r r i e d o n w a lk i n g a n d t h e n a s I a m a b o u t t o 10 g e t in t h e li f t I j u s t h e a r d t h is s h o u t w o w a n d t h e n I l o o k e d t o my r i g h t a n d t h e g u y s h a d j u m p e d fr o m t h e f ir e e s c a p e . S o t h e y t o o k h i m o u t o f t h e v e h i c l e . I c a r r ie d o n w a lk i n g . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: G o t i n to t h e li f t , w e n t u p s ta ir s . A t t h a t s t a g e I h a d n e v e r d o n e s o m e t h i n g lik e th is b e f o r e . I w a s s h a k i n g a li t tl e b i t. S o I c o m p o s e d m y s e l f a n d I w e n t d o w n a g a i n . I d id n o t g o – b y t h e n th e y h a d ta k e n h i m o u t o f h is v e h ic l e a n d t a k e n d o c u m e n ts o u t o f h is v e h i c l e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d I c a l le d - I t h i n k i t w a s S h e r i ff - a n d t h e r e w a s a b e e h i v e o f a c t iv i t y a r o u n d h i s v e h i c l e a n d I s a i d t o h i m t h e r e is t h e k e y t o m y c a r. D o a ll th e f o r e n s i c s t h a t is n e c e s s a r y in t h e c a r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d I w e n t b a c k to m y Page 192 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o ffic e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I t h i n k th e y c o u n te d t h e m o n e y t h a t e v e n i n g a n d a l t h o u g h t h e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s th a t t h e y w o u ld g iv e m e 1 . 5 m il li o n th e m o n e y a c t u a ll y c o u n t e d i n t h e – i n th e s u i t c a s e w a s 1 . 3 , j u s t u n d e r 1 . 4 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : R a n d in c a s h . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n t h a t s c o r e c a n I j u s t d ir e c t y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 4 0 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t w h ic h in f o r m s o f t h e a c t u a l a m o u n t y o u may be referring to. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Ye s C h a ir. It was R 1 3 7 2 m i ll io n i n c a s h . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: a n d j u s t o n e p o i n t f o r c l a r i ty. Yo u m e n ti o n e d n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s o n e 1 . 5 m il li o n th a t o u t t o h a v e b e e n p a i d b u t y o u r e a r l ie r e v id e n c e w a s t w o b a r w h ic h y o u u n d e r s t o o d to b e 2 m ill i o n . C a n y o u p le a s e c la r i fy ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 C h a ir a s I s a i d th e d a y b e fo r e t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s t h a t t h e y w o u l d g iv e m e 1 . 5 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I n e x c h a n g e f o r th e document. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 193 of 212 A n d th e n w h e n t h e y 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 a r e h a p p y w i th t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t s a m e a ft e r n o o n t h e y w o u l d p a y m e the balance of. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: H a l f a m il li o n R a n d . T h e R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . T h e p r o b l e m w i th t h a t s c e n a r i o w a s o n c e I h a d a ll o w e d t h e m t o g e t a w a y w it h th e d o c u m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And they did not keep t h e ir s id e o f t h e b a r g a in . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : [I n t e r v e n e s ] . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : They could have used t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d c o m p r o m is e d th e w h o le in v e s t i g a t io n . T h a t i s w h y I a r r a n g e d t h a t w e a r r e s t h i m th e r e a n d th e n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I c o u l d n o t a l lo w h i m t o g e t a w a y w i th t h a t d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Of course even if he had gone away with the d o c u m e n t a n d w h e n – a n d h e w a s n o t a r r e s t e d t h e r e a n d th e n o n th e s p o t w i t h y o u h a v i n g t a k e n p h o to s w it h – y o u h a d a c a m e r a w i th y o u . Yo u w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e to s h o w t h e c i r c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h y o u h a d b a c k d a t e d th a t d o c u m e n t a n d h is - h i s p ic t u r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n o n t h e c a m e r a w h e n h e s h o w e d y o u t h e m o n e y in t h e b a s e m e n t a n d a l l o f that. Page 194 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir t h a t i s i n d e e d what happened. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: My main concern was and I have dealt with a number of High Court cases. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: K e e p i t a s s i m p le a s p o s s i b le t o h a v e g o n e t o a s e c o n d t r a n s a c t io n . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. 10 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I knew that there was e n o u g h e v id e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: To a r r e s t h i m a t th a t ju n c t u r e . I d i d n o t w a n t t o t a k e a c h a n c e t o le t h i m g e t a w a y w i t h t h a t document. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o I u n d e r s ta n d , j a . I a m j u s t s a y i n g i t d o e s n o t l o o k l ik e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e w h o l e o p e r a t io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n d e f e a t e d b u t o b v i o u s ly y o u w e r e b e t t e r o ff h a v i n g h i m a r r e s t e d th e r e a n d th e n ? 20 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: perhaps add here. C h a ir I c o u ld j u s t S i m u l ta n e o u s to t h is w h e r e th e [ i n d is ti n c t ] is r u n n in g . S o li s t e n i n g t o t h e i n t e r c e p t s a ft e r w a r d s a n d w e h a d th is d o n e s c i e n t i fic a lly w h e r e w e p l o t te d e x a c tly w h e r e t h e y w e r e a t d i ff e r e n t Page 195 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ti m e s . S o i t is c le a r f r o m t h a t th a t To s h a n P a n d a y a n d N a v i n M a d h o e had met at the Japanese Gardens. T h a t is w h e r e t h e m o n e y w a s tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m P a n d a y t o M a d h o e ’s v e h ic le . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Madhoe then p r o c e e d s t o my o ffi c e . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A b o u t 1 0 m i n u t e s in t o t h e – i n to t h e p r o c e s s o f g o in g t o m y o ffic e a n d I w o u l d s a y a b o u t a h a l f 10 a k i lo m e t r e t o a k il o m e tr e a w a y fr o m m y o ffi c e P a n d a y p h o n e s M a d h o e a n d h e s a y s s t o p t h e v e h ic l e . S o P a n d a y s t o p s t h e v e h ic l e a n d h e s a y s o k a y I h a v e s t o p p e d h e v e h ic l e . S o h e s a y s o k a y g o a n d o p e n t h e b o o t a n d ta k e a c l o th a n d w i p e t h e s u i t c a s e . S o t h a t is o b v io u s ly to w i p e o ff h is f in g e r p r i n ts i f a n y w e r e o n . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O n t h e s u i tc a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s is n o w o n t h e s a m e d a y ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: S a m e d a y C h a ir. So w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b e fo r e h e c a m e t o t h e b u i l d i n g , b e f o r e M a d h o e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t is r ig h t C h a ir. T h a t is r i g h t. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o h e g o t th is c a ll o n h is w a y t o th e b u il d i n g ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : To m e e t y o u ? Page 196 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja, okay and you hear this c o n v e r s a ti o n s u b s e q u e n t ly ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Well subsequent when w e li s t e n t o t h e in t e r s e c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: He says to Madhoe s t o p t h e v e h ic l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W i p e t h e s u i tc a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: To w i p e a n y p o s s i b l e fi n g e r p r i n t s t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: O f h is t h a t c o u ld b e o n t h e v e h ic l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: On the – on th e suitcase. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir if I m a y. Tw o p o i n t s , m y a tt e n ti o n is b e i n g d r a w n to t h e t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h is n o w q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. I g u e s s t h a t w e s h o u ld a t l e a s t g o u p t o h a l f Page 197 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p a s t. W o u l d th a t b e fi n e w i th y o u ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I a m f in e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s g o u p t o h a l f p a s t I th i n k . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir i f I m a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e n e x t s e g m e n t o f h is e v i d e n c e w o u ld lik e ly ta k e lo n g e r t h a n 1 5 m i n u te s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : But if you – if you are happy for us to 10 p r o c e e d o n t h a t b a s is t h a t is fi n e . CHAIRPERSON : N o , l e t u s u s e t h e – le t u s th e 1 5 m i n u t e s . W e w il l s t o p w h a t e v e r a n d t h e n w e w i ll p r o c e e d to m o r r o w. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir. I h a v e a ls o b e e n h a n d e d a b e t te r c o p y o f . CHAIRPERSON : Of the second? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : [ In d is ti n c t ] . CHAIRPERSON : The second report? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h is J W B 1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e g i s t r a r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W it h y o u r l e a v e i f I m a y h a n d i t u p . Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. I j u s t w a n t to – o h t h a t is m u c h b e tt e r. S o I w il l ju s t r e p la c e t h is o n e w i t h t h e n e w o n e . T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y Page 198 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 proceed. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e n o w b lo c k 2 4 o f the timeline. On the very day that Colonel Madhoe was arrested on 8 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 a c e r t a i n t e le p h o n ic e x c h a n g e t o o k p l a c e . CHAIRPERSON : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a y S e p te m b e r. I see that in p a r a g r a p h 4 0 h e h a s g o t 8 A u g u s t 2 0 11 . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C o r r e c t C h a ir. That was in fact c o r r e c t e d t h r o u g h o n e o f h i s s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o i t i s S e p t e m b e r ? 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. I t i s S e p t e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h a t w a s a c t u a ll y c o r r e c t e d in p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 o f h is fir s t s u p p l e m e n ta r y a f fi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: EXHIBIT ZC. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I h a d m e n t io n e d th a t o n t h e v e r y d a y t h a t C o l o n e l M a d h o e w a s a r r e s te d a c e r ta in te le p h o n ic d i s c u s s i o n to o k p l a c e t o w h ic h y o u w e r e m a d e a w a r e o f . 20 C a n y o u p le a s e i n fo r m th e C h a ir a b o u t s u c h e x c h a n g e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e e n g a g e m e n t w e li s te n e d t o s o m e o f t h e t e le p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s in t e r c e p t e d c o n v e r s a t i o n s o f P a n d a y. So obviously he had now sent M a d h o e w i t h j u s t u n d e r R 1 .4 m i ll io n to m y o ffic e . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. Page 199 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d h e is n o w w a i t in g f o r M a d h o e t o r e t u r n w i t h t h is d o c u m e n t t h a t is g o i n g t o a s s i s t t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And he does not come back. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So he makes a n u m b e r o f fr a n t ic c a l ls . S o m e t o t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r w h o d o e s n o t t a k e h is c a ll a n d w e s u s p e c t s h e m i g h t h a v e b e e n b u s y i n Pr e to r i a . 10 H e p h o n e s a n u m b e r o f s e n i o r p o li c e o ffi c e r s [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is l ik e h e i s g e t ti n g w o r r i e d n o w ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: worried. Yo u c a n h e a r h e is fr a n t ic . H e i s g e t ti n g v e r y He cannot – he does not k now w h e r e M a d h o e is . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h e m o n e y o r th e report. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 20 And then one p a r t ic u l a r c o n v e r s a ti o n I th in k i t w a s l a t e i n th e e v e n i n g C h a ir w a s b e t w e e n h i m a n d a p e r s o n b y th e n a m e o f D e e b o M z o b e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : D e e b o M z o b e fr o m m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is a n e p h e w o f t h e - o r a c o u s i n – I a m n o t to o s u r e – o f t h e t h e n S t a te P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Z u m a . Page 200 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: And there is a c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n P a n d a y a n d D e e b o w h e r e D e e b o M z o b e – w h e r e P a n d a y s a y s t h a t I a m a c ti n g – B o o y s e n n o w – I a m a c t in g li k e t h e m a f ia a n d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B u t I a m n o w s t a n d in g in t h e w a y o f e v e r y t h i n g – w o r d s t o th a t e ff e c t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u l d p e r h a p s ju s t t a k e y o u th e n 10 in l in e w i th t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t y o u n o w s p e a k o f t o p a g e 8 2 o f y o u r m a in a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON : 82? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : 82. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is p a g e 8 2 o f E X H I B I T ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Z. CHAIRPERSON : ZA? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A. C H A I R P E R S O N : R a t h e r t h a n 8 2 o f h is a ffi d a v i t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . H i s a ff id a v i t g o e s u p t o 7 0 s o m e th i n g . O k a y, thank you. 82. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e d o c u m e n t a c t u a l l y s t a r ts a t 8 3 . I s t h a t r i g h t ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . O n 8 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a l ly, a t 8 2 j a . Page 201 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: On page 82 is a tr a n s c r ib e r ’s c e r t if ic a te w h i c h a p p e a r s t o b e d a t e d 8 S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 a n d i t h a s b e e n tr a n s c r ib e d b y S h w e t a Ty p i n g a n d Tr a n s c r i p ti o n S e r v i c e s . Is that correct? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A p o l o g ie s . It in fact appears to relate to. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 T h e tr a n s c r ip t io n o f a n e v e n t t h a t t o o k p la c e o n 8 S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t th a t is i n fa c t t h e s a m e d a t e o n w h ic h C o lo n e l M a d h o e w a s a r r e s te d ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : If I can then ask you to turn to page 8 3 w h i c h r u n s u n ti l p a g e 8 6 . Is t h i s i n f a c t th e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t y o u were referring to? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: That is th e c o n v e r s a ti o n I a m r e f e r r i n g to C h a ir. 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I a s k y o u t o th e n i d e n t i fy - o r r a th e r t h e d o c u m e n t t a l k s t o m a l e o n e a n d m a l e tw o – c a n I a s k y o u t o p l e a s e i d e n ti fy w h o m a l e o n e is a n d w h o m a l e tw o i s ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir m a l e o n e i n t h is Page 202 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 c o n v e r s a ti o n w il l b e To s h a n P a n d a y a n d m a l e tw o w il l b e D e e b o M z o b e . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In th a t i n s t a n c e I a m g o i n g t o a s k y o u t o r e a d th is tr a n s c r ip t i n t o t h e r e c o r d , b u t in d o i n g s o t o i d e n ti fy w h a t m a l e o n e s a y s r e la t iv e t o w h a t m a l e t w o s a y s . CHAIRPERSON : Hang on one second. Are you asking him to read t he w h o le tr a n s c r i p t ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON : 10 I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t is r e a l ly – h e s h o u l d r e a d t h e w h o le tr a n s c r i p t . H e h a d lis t e n e d to t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n a n d h e h a s r e a d t h is . H e s h o u ld ju s t t e l l u s w h a t t h e m a in fe a t u r e s o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n is a n d o n e c a n r e a d t h is l a t e r. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. Let me ask him. Yo u li s te n e d t o th e c o n v e r s a ti o n . D i d y o u n o t? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d y o u h a v e r e a d t h i s tr a n s c r i p t , h a v e y o u ? Th is tr a n s c r ip t h a v e y o u h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d it ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d i d C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t a r e th e m a in f e a t u r e s o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n th e t w o p e o p l e ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir w i th yo ur p e r m is s io n I w o u l d l ik e t o r e a d t h is b e c a u s e t h is is t h e n u b . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Page 203 of 212 Of where I think my 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 p r o b le m s t a r te d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, a lr i g h t . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I f th e C h a ir w o u l d a l lo w m e to r e a d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s f i n e t h e n , o k a y. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. R e a d i t th e n . I t i s , is i t f o u r p a g e s ? O k a y, read. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: 10 Thank you M a le o n e - t h a t is n o w To s h a n P a n d a y. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: “ H o w z a t. M a le t w o : [ in a u d i b l e ] . M a l e o n e : B u t c a n y o u ta lk ? M a le t w o : [i n d is t in c t] .” CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: O k a y. “ M a le o n e : Yo u k n o w I t o l d y o u o u r p r e s s u r e w a s d e n ie d . M a l e t w o : H m . M a l e o n e : T h e P C [ ? ] s e n t a p a r c e l w i th o n e o f t h e b o y s w h o is a C o l o n e l . 20 M a le t w o : Hm. Male one: Of some cash. Male t w o : S o r r y. M a l e o n e : 2 m il li o n c a s h . M a le t w o : Ye s ? M a le o n e : M a le tw o : S o r r y. B e c a u s e B o o y s e n w a n te d t h a t . Male one: C a n y o u ta lk ? Male t w o : Ye s , y e s . Ye s , I c a n h e a r y o u n o w. M a le o n e : T h i s is o u r s it u a ti o n r i g h t . O u r g u y w e n t to Page 204 of 212 C h a ir. 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 B o o y s e n w i t h t h e c a s h o f 2 m i ll io n c a s h . M a le t w o : Ye s . M a l e o n e : T h a t is w h a t B o o y s e n w a n t e d a n d t h e n B o o y s e n m a d e i t i n t o a tr a p . M a le t w o : [ W h i s t l e s ] . M a l e o n e : T h e y a r r e s t e d t h e g u y. M a l e t w o : D o n o te ll m e . M a le o n e : H o n e s t m y b r o t h e r t h a t is w h y I d i d n o t a n s w e r y o u r c a l ls to d a y. I w a s r u n n in g a r o u n d t o h e l p th a t b r o t h e r o u t . I got the General in Pretoria phoning me because she went s o m e s t a ts o r o u t o f c r i m e s ta ts o r w h a t e v e r 10 [i n d is t in c t] . S h e w a s b u s y. [ I n d i s t i n c t ] g o a n d h e l p t h e b r o t h e r o u t , b u t t h e b o t t o m l i n e is h o w c a n Booysen do that. M a l e t w o : H o w, h o w, h o w c o m e o n m a n h o w. M a l e o n e : Yo u s e e i f y o u a r e p l a y in g b a ll y o u a r e p l a y i n g b a l l. Yo u k n o w w h a t I a m s a y in g . H e w e n t a g a i n s t . Yo u r e c k o n n o . I m e a n I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w e n t in t o h i m . He arranged a tr a p a n d h e s o r t e d i t o u t a n d th e g u y h e to o k t h e b a g o f m o n e y. T h e r e is n o d o u b t a b o u t t h e 2 m ill i o n in R 1 0 0 n o t e s . 20 Male two: How man. I do not b e li e v e th is . M a l e o n e : Th a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d . It w i ll b e i n t h e p a p e r to m o r r o w m o r n i n g . So it is a b i g t h i n g . M a l e t w o : W h a t m e a n s t h a t y o u r n a m e is n o t th e r e ? M a l e t w o : M y la d y i s n o t t h e r e . S h e i s in J o h a n n e s b u r g b u t t h is w a s o u r b o y. M a le t w o : N o w I a m s a y in g t h a t y o u n a m e is n o t t h e r e . M a le Page 205 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 o n e : N o , m y n a m e is n o t t h e r e . N o it is n o t t h e r e , b u t o b v io u s ly t h e y k n o w m y n a m e is t h e r e b e c a u s e we arranged that you know what I am saying. [ S p e a k i n g s i m u l t a n e o u s l y th e t w o o f t h e m ] . They s u s p e c t w e d i d t h i s b u t th is t h in g is g e t ti n g o u t o f h a n d w i th B o o y s e n . B o o y s e n th i n k s h e i s a m a fi a n o w y o u k n o w. M a l e t w o : [ I n d is t in c t] . M a le o n e : I s a i d B o o y s e n t h i n k s h e i s a m a fi a n o w. M a le t w o : H m . M a le o n e : Yo u k n o w fo r h i m t o b e h a v e i n t h is 10 m a n n e r h e t h in k s h e i s a b o v e e v e r y o n e e ls e n o w. M a y b e e v e n n e e d t o c li p h i m a b i t . M a le t w o : H o w, h o w, h o w I d o n o t b e l ie v e t h is m a n . M a le o n e : J a , h e d i d th a t .” A n d I w ill n o t u s e th e w o r d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t i s b e i n g te le v i s e d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: “That w h a t e v e r W h i te b a s ta r d a n d I to l d m y s i s t e r d o n o t 20 tr u s t th is W h i t e b a s t a r d b u t s h e s a i d n o s e n d i t t h r o u g h b e c a u s e h e is g o in g t o p l a y b a l l. H e w il l d o t h is . H e w il l d o t h a t a n d w h a t e v e r. [Speaking s i m u l t a n e o u s ly th e t w o o f t h e m ] a n d t h a t i s w h a t h e d o e s . H e w a n ts , h e w a n t s . M a l e t w o : B u t y o u r a u n t s h e is n o t in v o lv e d ? Male one: Page 206 of 212 No she and I are 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 n o t i n v o l v e d . Yo u s e e w e u s e d s o m e o n e e ls e t o g o t h e r e a n d s o r t i t o u t. M a le t w o : O k a y. Yo u k n o w w h a t I a m s a y in g . M a le o n e : J a , b u t w e w i ll m e e t a n d w e w il l h a v e a b r ie f in g a n d w e w i ll d e c i d e h o w w e a r e g o i n g to t a k e c a r e o f t h is g u y b e c a u s e h e is o b v i o u s l y g o i n g t o s t a n d i n t h e w a y o f e v e r y t h in g . M a le t w o : Ja. N o , i t is f in e . N o is i t fi n e . I t is f in e . I t is f in e , b u t o k a y. Male one: [They speak o v e r e a c h o t h e r ] . I s a i d I m u s t g e t b a i l fo r t h is b o y. 10 I c a n n o t te ll h i m I s a i d n o I d o n o t w a n t w h a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is a tr a p o r n o t a tr a p , y o u k n o w. M a l e t w o : Ye s . M a le o n e : B u t th e n I p h o n e d h i m b a c k fr o m t h e c a ll box. He says no just help him whatever you can because he is a good m an. Yo u s a i d th e g u y th a t got arrested is a Colonel. He said he is a good man. Just help him wherever you can help him.” C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t is p e r h a p s t h e p a r t th a t I w o u ld lik e to . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m p o r t a n t p a r t o k a y. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. Just to reiterate, please id e n t i fy a g a i n f o r t h e r e c o r d w h o m a l e o n e is . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: M a le one w il l be To s h a n P a n d a y a n d m a l e tw o w i ll b e D e e b o Mz o b e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p is b e t w e e n To s h a n P a n d a y a n d Mr D e e b o Mz o b e ? Page 207 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir i t e m e r g e d f r o m t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s th a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s w e r e d o in g t h a t To s h a n P a n d a y a n d D e e b o M z o b e a r e tw o – a r e b o t h r e g is t e r e d p a r tn e r s t o d i ff e r e n t c lo s e c o r p o r a ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON : S o s o m e o f t h e c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n s w h ic h w e r e t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e r e – o r t w o o f th e m – w e r e c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n s i n w h i c h b o t h M r P a n d a y a n d M r Mz o b e w e r e i n v o lv e d . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : R e f e r e n c e i n th is d i s c u s s io n i s m a d e t o a p e r s o n w h o a p p e a r s to b e a w o m a n . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w h o w a s th a t woman that they were referri ng to? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h e i n e s c a p a b l e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t I c o m e to is th a t th e y w e r e r e fe r r i n g t o th e P C . CHAIRPERSON : The Provincial Commissioner? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s . Is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n p o i n t o u t i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: O h C h a ir t h e m e r e fact. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u s a y s u g g e s t th a t i t w a s t h e [ in t e r v e n e s ]? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir f o r i n t e r r u p t i n g y o u . Page 208 of 212 Because I am - sorry 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir w a s i n d e e d i n Pretoria. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: W i t h a m e e ti n g w i t h c r i m e s t a ts . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: A n d h e r e f e r s to o u r la d y b e i n g in P r e t o r ia w i t h th e c r i m e s t a ts . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e c o n v e r s a t io n a ls o r e f e r s t o “ th e guy who was arrested”. Who was the guy they refer to? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Th a t c o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n N a v i n M a d h o e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h e n m e n t io n w a s a l s o m a d e i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n o n p a g e 8 5 i n p a r t ic u l a r a n d I r e a d : “ Ma y b e w e n e e d to c li p h i m a b i t .” What does that mean? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir my in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f th a t i s t h a t I n e e d to b e c l ip p e d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I d o n o t k n o w h a v in g b e e n a m e m b e r o f th e H a w k s w h e t h e r t h e y w a n t t o c li p m y w i n g s , b u t t h e y w a n t e d t o c li p m e s o m e h o w. Page 209 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W h i c h y o u u n d e r s t o o d t o m e a n w h a t? W h a t d i d you understand them to be meaning when they say you needed to be c li p p e d ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir a t t h a t ju n c t u r e it c o u l d h a v e m e a n t a n y t h i n g , b u t s u b s e q u e n t ly i t w a s c l e a r to m e w h a t t h a t c li p p i n g m e a n t . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. S o a t th a t j u n c t u r e y o u w e r e n o t s u r e . Is that correct? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I was not sure. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s u b s e q u e n tl y y o u a tt a c h e d a m e a n in g to it ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d w h a t is t h e m e a n in g th a t y o u a t t a c h e d t o i t s u b s e q u e n t ly ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t e v e n ts u n fo ld e d th a t l e d t o my s e l f b e i n g t a r g e t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O s tr a c i s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : E v e n t u a l ly a r r e s t e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u c o u l d li n k t h a t t o th is c l ip p i n g o f w i n g s t h a t th e – t h a t w a s r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n ? M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Were any subsequent arrests made a ft e r C o l o n e l M a d h o e w a s a r r e s te d ? Page 210 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: T h a t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir. I t h i n k a b o u t a w e e k o r tw o la t e r a f t e r fu r t h e r e v id e n c e h a d b e e n g a t h e r e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s th e y m a n a g e d t o a p p ly fo r a w a r r a n t o f a r r e s t f o r To s h a n P a n d a y. c o u n tr y. A t t h e ti m e h e h a p p e n e d t o b e o u t o f t h e H e w a s fl a g g e d a t m o v e m e n t c o n tr o l a n d o n h i s r e tu r n fr o m a b r o a d – i f I s a y a b r o a d I th i n k h e h a d g o n e t o t h e D R C – a n d o n h is r e tu r n a t O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t h e w a s a r r e s t e d a t t h e a ir p o r t a n d b r o u g h t to Durban. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s s ti ll 2 0 11 , s e c o n d o f h a l f o f 2 0 11 ? 10 M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Do? CHAIRPERSON : B y th e ti m e h e w a s a r r e s t e d – th a t i s Mr P a n d a y – C o l o n e l M a d h o e w a s o u t o n b a il o r n o t y e t o r y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: C h a ir I cannot r e m e m b e r. I s u s p e c t h e w a s s ti ll i n c u s t o d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D o y o u r e c a l l t h e c h a r g e a g a in s t M r To s h a n P a n d a y f o r w h ic h h e w a s a r r e s t e d ? 20 MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: I think it was for c o r r u p ti o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. O k a y. W e a r e – w e h a v e j u s t g o n e p a s t h a l f p a s t fo u r. I t h i n k w e m a y – w e c a n – w e s h o u l d a d jo u r n n o w a n d t h e n Page 211 of 212 17 APRIL 2019 – DAY 85 t o m o r r o w M r Pr e t o r i u s s h a l l w e s t a r t a t 1 0 t o m o r r o w a s w e l l? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir w e d i d d i s c u s s i t d u r i n g t h e adjournment. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w e t a lk e d a b o u t h a l f p a s t n i n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th e c h o ic e s a r e 0 9 : 3 0 f o r tw o h o u r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O r 1 0 f o r tw o h o u r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th in k m a y b e le t u s s t a r t a t 1 0 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. W e w i ll a d j o u r n a t t h is s t a g e t h e n a n d w e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k to m o r r o w m o r n in g . W e a d j o u r n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s . REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 1 8 A P R I L 2 0 1 9 Page 212 of 212