C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

17 FEBRUARY 2020

D AY 2 1 3

20

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 17 FEBRUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir I – I p r o p o s e t h is m o r n i n g t o d o a f e w

t h i n g s in a n ti c i p a t i o n o f s t a r ti n g w i t h t h e f ir s t w i t n e s s . A n d th e f ir s t is
ju s t t o g iv e a n i n tr o d u c t io n t o w h e r e w e a r e i n t h e e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n to
10

d e a l w it h a n a p p li c a t io n a n d c e r t a i n p r o c e d u r a l m a t te r s .
If I may begin then with where we are in the course of the
e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e I i n d ic a te d a t t h e o u t s e t o f t h is s e s s io n t h a t m y
p r o p o s a l w a s t o d o a s h o r t in tr o d u c ti o n a t t h e b e g in n i n g o f e a c h n e w
in v e s t i g a t io n a r e a .
C h a ir t o d a y w e t a k e a s l i g h t d e t o u r fr o m a v i a ti o n m a t t e r s a n d
w e f o c u s th e a t te n ti o n o f th e c o m m i s s i o n t o R i c h a r d s B a y in f a c t a n d
t h e M h la t h u z e W a te r B o a r d . C h a ir w e w il l b e e x p lo r i n g t h e c o n d u c t o f
t h e W a te r B o a r d p a r ti c u l a r l y d u r in g t h e p e r io d 2 0 1 5 a n d 2 0 1 6 . D u r i n g
t h is p e r i o d M s D u d u z i le M y e n i w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b o t h o f t h e

20

M h la t h u z e W a te r B o a r d a n d S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s .

T h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n

h a s r e v e a l e d C h a ir w h a t a p p e a r s to b e a n e la b o r a te s c h e m e o f l o o ti n g
d e s i g n e d to s i p h o n m o n ie s o u t o f th e W a te r B o a r d f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f
e m p l o y e e s a n d o ff ic i a l s w i t h i n th e W a te r B o a r d .

A n d th e r e w i ll b e

e v i d e n c e o v e r th e n e x t t w o d a y s t e s ti fy i n g t o t h o s e fe a t u r e s o f th e
in v e s t i g a t io n .

Page 2 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C h a ir a ls o d u r i n g t h e p e r io d t h a t w e w il l b e fo c u s i n g o n t h e
M h la t h u z e W a te r B o a r d t h e r e w a s a n R D P h o u s i n g p r o j e c t th a t w a s
u n d e r w a y in Vr e d e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e . C h a i r s o m e o f th e m o n ie s f o r t h a t
p r o j e c t h a d b e e n p a id f r o m t h e s ta t e ’s c o ff e r s t o t h e F r e e S t a t e – t h e
Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n w h i c h is a c o r p o r a ti o n w e h a v e
h e a r d a b o u t p r e v i o u s ly i n t h e e v id e n c e in t h i s c o m m i s s io n p a r ti c u l a r l y
in t h e a v ia t io n s tr e a m .
A g a i n i n 2 0 1 5 i t w a s a t a p o in t i n t i m e g o i n g t o b e s e c u r in g
f u n d i n g o f R 1 5 b i ll io n fo r S A A .
10

T h o s e a c ts o n t h e p a r t o f th e Fr e e

S t a te D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n y o u h a v e p r e v i o u s l y h e a r d e v i d e n c e
w a s s t o p p e d in i ts tr a c k s w h e n N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n te r v e n e d . B u t i t is
a g a in a p l a c e w h e r e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n a p p e a r s i n
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o f t h e c o m m is s i o n . B e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e
R D P h o u s in g p r o je c t w a s t h a t th e Fr e e S t a te D e v e lo p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n
r e c e i v e d c e r t a i n f u n d s a n d p a i d c e r t a i n c o n tr a c to r s fr o m t h o s e fu n d s
w h o w e r e a p p o in t e d to t h e h o u s i n g p r o j e c t .

A n d a m o n g s t th o s e

c o n tr a c to r s C h a ir w a s a n e n t i ty tr a d in g a s V N A C o n s u l ti n g .
N o w p a r t o f w h a t t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s ti g a t io n s h a v e s o u g h t
t o e x p l o r e is w h e t h e r t h e r e is a n y li n k b e tw e e n , o n th e o n e h a n d a n
20

a l le g e d R 2 m il li o n t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n p a i d s o th e
a l le g a ti o n g o e s a s a t h a n k y o u f e e to fo r me r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a fo r h is
r o l e i n f a c i li t a ti n g t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f c e r ta in o f t h e s e c o n tr a c to r s t o t h e
R D P h o u s i n g p r o je c t.

A n d t h e q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a li n k

b e t w e e n t h a t a ll e g a t io n a n d i n th a t p e r i o d th e a c t iv i t ie s o f th e
M h la t h u z e W a te r B o a r d , M s M y e n i a n d th o s e c o n n e c t e d w it h h e r.

Page 3 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C h a ir t h e e v i d e n c e w il l c o m m e n c e w i th t e s ti m o n y fr o m M r
T h a l e n t e M y e n i w h o is t h e s o l e m e m b e r o f a C l o s e d C o r p o r a ti o n c a ll e d
P r e m i e r A t t r a c ti o n 1 0 1 6 . Pr e m i e r A t tr a c t i o n i s t h e e n t i ty t o w h i c h V N A
C o n s u lt i n g p a i d R 2 m il li o n i n J u n e o f 2 0 1 5 .
C h a ir th e e v id e n c e w i ll a l s o i n c l u d e t h a t o f M r M b o n is e n i
M a jo l a . M r M a j o l a w a s th e P r o g r a m M a n a g e r o f M h l a t h u z e W a te r d u r in g
t h e p e r i o d t h a t w e a r e fo c u s i n g o n th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

Mr Myeni has

b e e n s u m m o n e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t o d a y a n d Mr M a jo l a t o m o r r o w.
C h a ir b e t w e e n t h e i r e v i d e n c e th e l e g a l te a m i n t e n d s t o p r e s e n t
10

t h e e v id e n c e o f a n o t h e r w i tn e s s . T h is w i t n e s s b r i n g s a n a p p li c a t io n t o
g iv e h is e v id e n c e i n a m a n n e r t h a t s il l p r o t e c t h is n a m e a n d h is
a p p e a r a n c e fr o m b e i n g p u b li c ly d i s c lo s e d . H is e v id e n c e w il l b e h e a r d
b y t h e p u b l ic i f h is a p p l ic a ti o n i s g r a n t e d a n d h e a r d b y e v e r y o n e i n th is
r o o m b u t i f h e s u c c e e d s in h is a p p li c a t io n h e w i ll n o t h a v e h is n a m e o r
h is a p p e a r a n c e p u b li c ly r e v e a l e d .
C h a ir t h e w i t n e s s is u n r e p r e s e n t e d . H e w a s r e p r e s e n t e d a t a
p o i n t o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s e n g a g e m e n t s w i th h i m b u t n o t fo r s o m e
p e r i o d o f t i m e a n d i t is f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t t h e le g a l t e a m o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n w i ll m o v e h is a p p l ic a ti o n .

20

I a m g o i n g to r e f e r b r o a d ly t o

t h e a p p l ic a ti o n a s h is i n - c a m e r a a p p li c a t i o n b u t i t is i m p o r t a n t th a t I
e m p h a s is u p fr o n t t h e r e a r e o n ly t w o r e s p e c ts i n w h ic h th e w it n e s s
s e e k s n o t t o h a v e h is i d e n ti t y p u b lic ly d is c lo s e d . H e d o e s n o t w a n t t o
g iv e – h e d o e s n o t s e e k to g i v e t h e c o n t e n t o f h is e v i d e n c e p u r e ly i n
camera.
C h a ir th e r e i s a c h a l l e n g e w i th q u i t e h o w t o r e f e r t o a w i t n e s s

Page 4 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
w h o b r in g s s u c h a n a p p l ic a ti o n .

T h e w i t n e s s is c u r r e n t ly d e p o s i n g t o

a n a ffi d a v i t s e e k i n g t o c l a r i fy th is .

W h a t h e s e e k s is th a t h e b e

r e fe r r e d t o a s M r X in h is e v i d e n c e . A n y r e p o r t in g a b o u t h is e v i d e n c e
s i m il a r ly r e f e r to h i m i n th a t m a n n e r a n d t h a t a ff i d a v i t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t
is c u r r e n t ly b e i n g d e p o s e d t o a s a s u p p l e m e n t t o th e a p p lic a ti o n th a t h e
fi n a l is e d a n d s e e k s t o m o v e t h i s m o r n i n g . H e fi n a l is e d t h a t a p p lic a ti o n
o n ly y e s t e r d a y.
C h a ir ju s t a b i t o f b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e p r o c e s s e s f o ll o w e d in
r e l a ti o n t o t h a t a p p lic a ti o n a n d w h y i t w a s o n ly a v a i la b l e y e s t e r d a y.
10

Fi n a l is in g t h e w it n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e h a s n o t b e e n a n e a s y fe a t C h a ir a n d
t h e r e a s o n f o r t h a t i s t h a t q u i t e s i m p ly h e f e a r s f o r h is li f e in g iv in g t h i s
evidence.
T h e t h r e a t to h i m a n d h i s f a m il y in g i v i n g t h i s e v i d e n c e h a s
b e e n a s s e s s e d b y t h e S e c u r i ty P r o t e c t i o n S e r v i c e s o f t h e C o m m is s i o n
a n d h a s b e e n f o u n d t o b e r e a l a n d c r e d i b le . As w it h S a t u r d a y h e w a s
p l a c e d i n t h e c u s to d y o f t h o s e s e r v ic e s a n d h e w a s o n ly a b l e t o m e e t
w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m f o r th e fir s t t i m e y e s te r d a y.
A f t e r th a t m e e ti n g h is m a in a ff id a v i t w a s f in a l is e d a n d h is
a p p lic a ti o n t o b r i n g t h is e v i d e n c e in c a m e r a w a s a l s o fi n a l is e d .

20

C h a ir w i th i n m in u te s o f t h a t fi n a l is a ti o n a n d a n a p p r o p r ia t e
r e d a c t i o n o f t h e a ffi d a v i t n o tic e w a s g i v e n t o th e p e r s o n s w h o w il l b e
i m p l ic a t e d

in

h is

e v id e n c e .

That

was

done

by

way

of

e m a il

c o m m u n ic a ti o n y e s t e r d a y a n d t h e n o ti c e w a s g i v e n to M r Th a le n t e
M y e n i w h o w il l b e a p p e a r i n g t o g i v e e v id e n c e t o d a y.

M s D u d u z il e

M y e n i , M r M a jo la w h o w il l g iv e e v i d e n c e t o m o r r o w a n d to fo r m e r

Page 5 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
P r e s i d e n t Zu m a . A l l o f t h a t n o t i fic a ti o n w e n t to t h e ir l a w y e r s b e c a u s e
they

are

on

record

as

being

r e p r e s e n te d

by

la w y e r s

with

th e

c o m m i s s io n a t t h is s t a g e .
T h e y w e r e a le r t e d t o th e f a c t t h a t t h e a p p li c a t io n w o u l d b e
m a d e t h i s m o r n i n g a n d t h e y w e r e p r o v id e d w i th a c o p y o f t h e
a p p lic a ti o n .

In a f u r th e r e ff o r t t o e n s u r e t h a t t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n w a s

r e c e i v e d C h a ir th is m o r n i n g t h e S e c r e t a r ia t o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n m a d e
t e l e p h o n ic c o n t a c t w i t h a l l o f t h o s e la w y e r s a n d th e y h a v e a l l in d i c a t e d
r e c e i p t o f t h e a p p li c a t io n .
I n s o f a r a s M r Th a le n te M y e n i is c o n c e r n e d h e is p r e s e n t a n d

10

h is l a w y e r s a r e p r e s e n t h e r e w i t h h i m .

I h a v e n o t b e e n a d v is e d t h a t

t h e y h a v e a n y r e s p o n s e t o t h e a p p li c a t io n b u t I a m s u r e i f th e y a r e
a ffo r d e d a n o p p o r tu n i t y t h e y w i ll m a k e th a t c le a r.
C h a ir w i t h y o u r le a v e t h e n I w o u l d l ik e t o m o v e t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n
if I m a y a t t h e o u ts e t t o d a y b e c a u s e d e p e n d in g o n t h e r u li n g c e r t a i n
a r r a n g e m e n t w i ll n e e d t o b e p u t i n p la c e f o r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e
m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t a r e y o u a b l e t o p l a c e o n
r e c o r d w h a t i t is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h ?
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d I c a n d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In s o f a r a s y o u a r e a b l e t o ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d i t is c u r r e n t ly b e in g d e p o s e d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 6 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t a n i n v e s ti g a to r o f th e c o m m i s s io n h a s

c o n fir m e d w i t h t h e w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t h e is h a p p y w i t h i t s c o n t e n ts a n d t h a t i t is
underway to be deposed to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e e s s e n c e o f i t is t h a t h e e x p la i n s th a t h e

fi le d a n a p p li c a t io n y e s t e r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To g i v e h is e v id e n c e i n c a m e r a in t h e r e s p e c ts
t h a t I h a v e d e s c r ib e d . H e i n d ic a t e s t h a t h i s n a m e w a s d is c lo s e d i n t h a t
a ffi d a v i t p r i o r t o i t b e i n g r e d a c te d .

H e th e n i n d i c a t e s t h a t in o r d e r to

n a v i g a t e th e e v i d e n c e t o d a y a n d in o r d e r f o r i t t o b e c l e a r w h o b r in g s
t h e a p p l ic a ti o n h e r e q u e s t s t h a t h e b e r e fe r r e d t o a s M s X i n t h e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s a n d g o in g fo r w a r d i n a n y p u b li c a t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is
m a t t e r.
A n d h e m a k e s i t c le a r t h a t h e w i ll s ig n th is s u p p le m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i t b u t t h a t h e – h e tr u s ts t h a t s te p s w i ll b e ta k e n a g a in t o r e d a c t
it b e f o r e t h e r e is a n y p u b lic a ti o n o f t h e a ffi d a v i t b y t h e c o m m is s i o n o n
20

it s w e b s i t e o r o t h e r w is e .
A n d I w i ll b e u p d a t e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m o r n in g a s s o o n a s
a c o p y o f th a t h a s b e e n s e c u r e d a n d w e w ill h a n d i t u p t o y o u C h a ir a t
the appropriate point.
CHAIRPERSON:

W i ll – d o w e n e e d t o fi n a li s e t h is a p p li c a t io n b e f o r e

y o u r fir s t w it n e s s g i v e s e v i d e n c e o r c a n i t b e d e a l t w i th la t e r w h e n w e

Page 7 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
h a v e g o t t h a t s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t w i th u s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c o u ld c e r t a i n ly d o it la t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Let us …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s d o i t w h e n th e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t i s

a v a i la b le .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e lo o k e d a t t h e p r a y e r s s o u g h t i n t h e a p p l ic a ti o n
m a y b e I c a n s a y t h i s , i f I a m s a t is fi e d t h a t I s h o u ld g r a n t a n o r d e r
10

e s s e n ti a l ly p r o t e c ti n g h is i d e n ti t y a n d h is n a m e b e i n g d i s c l o s e d I th i n k
w e c o u l d f o r m u l a t e a m u c h s h o r te r o r d e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R o u g h ly s o m e t h i n g a l o n g th e s e l i n e s .
1 . T h e a p p li c a n t ’s n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i th – t h e n y o u c a n s p e c i fy t h e
rules as hereby condoned.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
2 . T h e a p p l ic a n t , - t h e a p p l ic a n t is t o b e r e fe r r e d t o d u r i n g h is
e v i d e n c e a n d a f te r h is e v id e n c e in s o f a r a s t h e c o m m i s s i o n is
c o n c e r n e d a s Mr X .

20

3 . T h e a p p li c a n t ’s n a m e s h a l l n o t b e d is c l o s e d o r p u b l is h e d in a n y
w a y.
4 . N o b o d y m a y ta k e p ic t u r e s o f t h e a p p l ic a n t n o r h a v e h is p ic tu r e s
o r i m a g e o r a p p e a r a n c e p u b li s h e d in a n y w a y.

T h e a p p lic a n t

n e e d n o t b e p r e s e n t a t th e v e n u e o f t h e h e a r i n g o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n w h e n g iv in g h i s e v i d e n c e a n d m a y g iv e h is e v id e n c e

Page 8 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
fr o m a s e c r e t l o c a ti o n .

N o b o d y o t h e r t h a n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o r

m e m b e r s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l te a m o r t h e s e c u r i ty a d v i c e o f
t h e c o m m i s s i o n m a y a p p r o a c h t h e s e c r e t – s e c r e t lo c a t io n fr o m
w h ic h th e w i t n e s s w i ll g iv e e v i d e n c e w i t h o u t p r i o r w r it t e n
p e r m is s io n o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
I t h i n k m o r e o r l e s s s o m e t h i n g a l o n g th o s e li n e s i t c a n b e – w h e n i t is
d r a f t e d i t c a n b e d e a l t w i t h m o r e e l e g a n t ly t h a n I h a v e b e e n d o i n g . J a I
t h i n k th a t m a y c o v e r e v e r y t h i n g b u t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o g o b a c k to th e N o ti c e o f M o t i o n i f t h e r e a r e th i n g s
t h a t I h a v e n o t c o v e r e d w h ic h y o u t h i n k a r e i m p o r t a n t th e n y o u c a n ju s t
r e ta i n t h e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k t h e f o r m u l a ti o n s h o u l d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r le s s b e a l o n g t h e li n e s t h a t I h a v e i n d i c a t e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e th a t th e a r r a n g e m e n t o f t h e v a r io u s o r d e r s
o r p r a y e r s m a y a ls o b e r e a l ig n e d .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n i n c l u d e t h e a u d i o li n k p a r t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

W h a t w e w il l d o i n

p r e p a r a ti o n f o r m o v i n g th a t a p p l ic a ti o n l a t e r o n c e w e a r e i n r e c e i p t o f

Page 9 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Is w e m a y j u s t p u t t h is i n t h e f o r m o f a d r a f t

o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r y o u r c o n s i d e r a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

F o l lo w i n g t h e g u i d a n c e y o u h a v e g iv e n i n

r e l a ti o n t o th e f o r m u l a ti o n o f t h e p r a y e r s . B u t w e w il l c h e c k i f t h e r e is
10

a n y th in g t h a t i n o u r v i e w is s t il l n e c e s s a r y t o b e i n c lu d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I h a d s o m e c o n c e r n s a b o u t 4 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr a y e r 4 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e e m s t o m e u n n e c e s s a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f – i f th e a p p lic a n t’s c o n c e r n is m o r e a b o u t – I m e a n
p r a y e r 4 w o u ld a l l o w t h a t a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n g e ts to k n o w h i m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o o n – m u s t u n d e r s t a n d th a t h e u n d e r s t a n d s

that – that may have to be done.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t th a t – t h a t h e u n d e r s ta n d s th a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n th e r e m a y b e n o p r o b l e m . Yo u c a n ju s t …

Page 10 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l c o n f ir m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e a l o o k a t i t a g a in .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d w e a r e i n d e b t e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w i s e w e c a n d e a l w it h i t a t a l a t e r s ta g e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If I may then just deal with two procedural

m a t t e r s b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e w i t h Mr M y e n i’s e v i d e n c e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , ja .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h e fir s t is i n r e l a ti o n t o

a n o t h e r w it n e s s w h o w a s in f a c t s c h e d u le d t o g iv e o r a l e v i d e n c e t o d a y.
T h a t w a s M r K h a n w h o w a s o n e o f t h e e n g i n e e r s a p p o i n te d o n a n
e n g in e e r i n g p r o je c t f o r M h la t h u z e in 2 0 1 5 .
C h a ir d u r i n g M r K h a n ’s e v id e n c e it w a s t h e i n te n ti o n o f t h e
le g a l te a m o f th e c o m m i s s i o n t o r e fe r t o a n o t h e r a ff id a v i t o f o n e o f t h e
C l o s e d C o r p o r a t i o n s w h o w a s d o i n g c o n s t r u c t io n w o r k o n o n e o f th e s e
p r o j e c ts fo r M h la t h u z e Wa t e r. T h a t w a s a n a ffi d a v it d e p o s e d to b y M r
S h a n g e w h o is t h e m a n a g i n g m e m b e r o f M d i m a C iv ils .

Now Mr

S h a n g e ’s a ff id a v i t i m p lic a t e d o r m a y h a v e i m p l ic a t e d c e r t a in p e r s o n s in
20

a c ts o f w r o n g d o in g a n d s o n o t ic e w a s g iv e n o n t h e 3 1 J a n u a r y t o t h o s e
p e r s o n t o a le r t t h e m t o t h e f a c t t h a t r e f e r e n c e w o u l d b e m a d e to M r
S h a n g e ’s a ff i d a v i t .
C h a ir a m o n g s t t h e p e r s o n s to w h o m n o tic e w a s s e n t w a s
S t e fa n u t ti S t o c k s w h i c h w a s a l s o a c o m p a n y i n v o lv e d i n s o m e o f th e
c o n s tr u c ti o n w o r k s fo r M h l a t h u z e a t t h e ti m e .

Page 11 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
S t e fa n u t ti S t o c k s r e c e iv e d n o ti c e o n Fr i d a y t h e 3 1 J a n u a r y.
T h a t is m o r e t h a n 1 4 d a y s p r io r to t o d a y.

B u t d e s p i te t h a t S t e fa n u t ti

S t o c k s r e s p o n d e d to t h e n o t ic e t h r o u g h a le t t e r s e n t to t h e c o m m i s s io n
o n Fr id a y a f t e r n o o n a n d i t c l a i m s t o , i n t h a t l e t te r t o h a v e b e e n
p r e j u d ic e d d e s p it e t h e f a c t t h a t i t h a d b e e n a ff o r d e d t h e fu ll 1 4 d a y s i n
w h ic h t o r e s p o n d t o Mr S h a n g e ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d i t s e e k s in e s s e n c e m o r e
ti m e t o b r i n g a n y a p p li c a t i o n t h a t i t m a y w i s h t o b r in g in t e r m s o f R u l e
3 .3 . 6 .
The
10

l e t te r

a ls o

n o t i fi e d

th e

S e c r e ta r i a t

that

le g a l

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s f o r S t e f a n u t t i S t o c k s w o u l d b e p r e s e n t t o d a y – t h e y a r e
in d e e d h e r e .

I h a v e c o n f ir m e d t h a t .

A n d t h a t th e y w o u l d w a tc h t h e

e v i d e n c e , t a k e n o t e o f i t i n s o fa r a s S t e f a n u tt i w a n t e d t o p u t b e f o r e th e
c o m m i s s io n a n y v e r s i o n o f i ts o w n in t h e a ffi d a v it o f M r S h a n g e a n d
n o t i fic a ti o n o n t h e 3 1 J a n u a r y w a s t h e fi r s t t i m e t h a t it w a s d i s c lo s e d t o
S t e fa n u t ti S t o c k s w h a t a ll e g a t i o n s w e r e b e in g m a d e a g a in s t i t a n d w h a t
t h e d e t a i ls o f t h e a ff id a v i t c o n t a i n e d .
A n d t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e ir r e q u e s t is t h a t th e y s a y t h e y n e e d
m o r e t i m e t o c o n s id e r t h e a ffi d a v it – t h e a ll e g a t i o n s c a r e fu ll y, to
id e n t i fy p e o p l e w i t h i n S t e fa n u t t i w h o n e e d to b e c o n s u l te d . T h e y r a i s e
20

t h e f a c t th a t s o m e o f th o s e p e o p l e m a y n o l o n g e r b e i n th e e m p l o y o f
S t e fa n u t ti . T h e y s a y t h e ir l a w y e r s n e e d t o t a k e in s tr u c ti o n s a n d t h e ir
c li e n t n e e d s t i m e t o s o u r c e d o c u m e n ts .
C h a ir t h e o n e t h in g th a t th e y d o n o t s a y in t h e ir l e t te r t o t h e
S e c r e t a r i a t o n F r i d a y is t h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s i n v e s ti g a t o r s h a v e b e e n
e n g a g e d w i t h S t e f a n u t ti S t o c k s s in c e O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 9 .

Page 12 of 156

They do not

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
m e n ti o n t h a t th e r e w a s a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s ti g a to r
a n d S t e f a n u t ti S t o c k s a n d it s l a w y e r s o n t h e 2 2 O c to b e r 2 0 1 9 .

And

t h e y d o n o t d i s c lo s e t h a t p u r s u a n t t o th a t m e e ti n g a n d a t t h a t m e e t in g
t h e a r e a s o f in v e s t i g a t io n w e r e d is c l o s e d t o S t e fa n u t t i .

They do not

d is c l o s e t h a t a f t e r t h a t m e e t i n g th e r e h a v e b e e n n u m e r o u s f o ll o w u p s
b e t w e e n O c t o b e r a n d J a n u a r y b y t h e in v e s ti g a to r s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n
s e e k i n g a n a ffi d a v i t fr o m S t e f a n u tt i S t o c k s g iv i n g i ts v e r s io n o f t h e
e v e n t s t h a t a r e g o i n g to r e v e a l e d in t h e e v i d e n c e o v e r t h e n e x t t w o
days.
10

C h a ir t h e r e f o r e to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e q u e s t f o r t h is e x t e n s io n
s e e k s to p a i n t a p ic tu r e t h a t S t e f a n u t ti w a s o n l y a l e r t e d t o t h e s e
m a t t e r s w h e n i t f ir s t r e c e iv e d Mr S h a n g e ’s a ffi d a v i t o n t h e 3 1 J a n u a r y i t
is s i m p ly f a l s e .
S t e fa n u t ti h a s b e e n w e l l a w a r e o f th e s e m a t t e r s a n d th a t th e y
w e r e b e i n g i n v e s t ig a te d s i n c e O c t o b e r o f l a s t y e a r a n d h a s a s a m a tt e r
o f f a c t m i s s e d e v e r y p r o p o s e d d e a d l in e f o r s u b m i s s i o n o f a n a ffi d a v it t o
t h e c o m m i s s io n .
To t h a t e x t e n t th e r e fo r e t h e l e g a l te a m d o e s n o t s u p p o r t t h e
r e q u e s t f o r a n e x te n s i o n b e c a u s e i t is n o t a d e q u a t e l y m o ti v a t e d a n d it

20

o m i ts m a te r i a l f a c ts .
H a v i n g s a i d th a t t h o u g h C h a ir t h e l e g a l t e a m s e e s n o r e a s o n
w h y S t e f a n u t t i S t o c k s s h o u l d n o t g iv e i ts v e r s io n to t h i s c o m m i s s i o n i f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t is o u r s u b m is s io n t h a t i t s h o u l d .

We have

b e e n a s k i n g f o r i t fo r s o m e ti m e . A n d if a l l t h a t t h e y s e e k t o d a y i s a n

Page 13 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
o p p o r t u n i ty t o b e a r w i t n e s s t o t h is e v i d e n c e a n d g iv e a n a ffi d a v it i n d u e
c o u r s e c e r t a i n l y th e le g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m i s s io n w o u l d h a v e n o
d i ff ic u l ty w i t h t h a t .

B u t th e n o ti o n t h a t t h e y g e t m o r e t h a n s i n c e

O c t o b e r l a s t y e a r t o p r e s e n t th e ir v e r s i o n a n d m a k e a n a p p li c a t io n
u n d e r R u l e 3 . 3 . 6 t h e le g a l te a m o f th e c o m m is s i o n c e r t a i n l y d o e s n o t
support that.
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e if t h e y s o u g h t a n e x t e n s i o n o f a n y p e r i o d

t h e y w o u l d h a v e h a d to b r i n g a s u b s t a n t iv e a p p l ic a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y h a v e n o t b r o u g h t a n y s u b s ta n ti v e a p p li c a t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t a s k fo r a n e x t e n s i o n b y s i m p ly s e n d i n g a
le t t e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t h o w th in g s a r e d o n e h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e d o n o t p r o p o s e t o ta k e i t f u r t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O t h e r t h a n t o r e c o r d t h e ir e ff ic ie n t – t h e ir

p o s i ti o n p u b l ic ly a s w e a l w a y s d o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d fu r t h e r m o r e t o i n v i te t h e m i n d u e c o u r s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I f t h e y w is h t o g iv e a v e r s io n t o t h is

Page 14 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
c o m m i s s io n to d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r t h e fi n a l a s p e c t o f p r o c e s s i s a m a t t e r

r e l a t e d t o M r K h a n ’s e v id e n c e .
evidence

y e s te r d a y

th e

S i n c e th e fi n a li s a t io n o f M r X ’s

legal team

has

evaluated

the

proposed

w i t n e s s e s w h o w o u l d b e – h a v e b e e n a p p e a r i n g fo r t h e c o u r s e o f t h i s
w e e k ’s e v i d e n c e a n d i t is o u r p r o p o s a l C h a ir th a t i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y i n
f a c t t o r e c e i v e o r a l t e s ti m o n y fr o m M r K h a n .
L e t m e j u s t b e c l e a r a n d t h is w i ll u n f o l d i n th e n e x t t w o d a y s .
10

M r K h a n ’s e v id e n c e , M r S h a n g e ’s e v i d e n c e a n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f a M r
P a t o n a r e a ll i n a s e n s e c o r r o b o r a ti v e v e r s io n s o f th e e v i d e n c e t h a t M r
X w i ll g iv e i f h e is p e r m i t t e d t o g i v e i t i n t h e t e r m s t h a t h e h a s
requested.

A n d i n th e i n t e r e s t o f ti m e a n d e ffi c i e n c i e s in t h i s

c o m m i s s io n th e l e g a l te a m d o e s n o t b e l ie v e i t is n e c e s s a r y a ls o to
p r e s e n t M r K h a n ’s e v i d e n c e o r a l ly i n t h e c o m m is s i o n .
O f c o u r s e C h a ir t h a t is d o n e a s i t a l w a y s i s d o n e p r o v is io n a l ly.
I f a n a s p e c t o f h is a ffi d a v it ’s e v i d e n c e w h ic h w i ll t h e n b e p u t t o t h e
w i t n e s s e s w h o d o t e s t i fy b e c o m e s c o n te n ti o u s th e r e w o u l d a lw a y s b e
a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e v is i t th e n e e d f o r h i m t o c o m e a n d g i v e o r a l
20

e v i d e n c e . B u t i t i s o u r p r o p o s a l t h a t it is u n n e c e s s a r y a t t h is s t a g e a n d
p u r s u a n t to t h a t w e w o u ld r e q u e s t th a t y o u r e l e a s e h i m f r o m g iv i n g o r a l
e v i d e n c e t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Mr S h a n g e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr K h a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr K h a n ?

Page 15 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u p r o p o s e t o h a n d u p h is a ffi d a v i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t s o m e s ta g e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

Mr Khan is released

fr o m t h e

p r o c e e d i n g s t o d a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n w e c a n p r o c e e d w i t h M r M y e n i ’s

e v i d e n c e i f a ll is i n o r d e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s d o t h a t . W il l s o m e b o d y c a l l h i m ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I th in k h e i s p r e s e n t i n t h e r o o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e w il l b e c o m i n g f o r w a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Alright.

Ta k e a s e a t t h e r e M r M y e n i .

P le a s e

a d m i n is te r t h e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R M Y E N I : T h a l e n t e C y r il M y e n i.
20

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MR MYENI: No I do not.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e

Page 16 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R M Y E N I : S o h e lp m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A s a m a t te r o f h o u s e k e e p i n g
M r M y e n i ’s a ff id a v i t a n d d o c u m e n ts r e la t e d to h is e v i d e n c e h a v e b e e n
p u t t o g e t h e r i n B u n d le D D 2 7 .

M a y I r e q u e s t f o r th e r e c o r d th a t w e

enter it as Exhibit DD27?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M r Th a le n te C y r i l M y e n i ’s a ffi d a v i t t o g e t h e r w i t h

a n n e x u r e s w i ll b e a d m i t t e d a s E x h i b i t D D 2 7 . T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r My e n i in fr o n t o f y o u is a
fi le c o n t a in in g w h a t w e w il l b e r e fe r r i n g t o i n t h i s h e a r i n g a s E x h i b i t
D D 2 7 . Yo u w il l s e e a t t h e to p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r o f e a c h p a g e is p a g e
n u m b e r s p r in t e d in r e d . S o w h e n I m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o a p a r t ic u l a r p a g e
t h a t is w h e r e y o u w il l l o o k in o r d e r to fo l lo w i n y o u r o w n c o p y o f th e
fi le . A n d t h e o t h e r th i n g ju s t t o m e n ti o n i s ju s t t o m a k e s u r e th a t th a t
m ic r o p h o n e is c l o s e e n o u g h to y o u s o t h a t y o u r v o i c e is s u ffi c i e n t ly
a m p l i fi e d i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e . M r M y e n i c a n y o u c l a r i f y f o r u s
y o u r p o s i ti o n i n t h e C lo s e d C o r p o r a ti o n Pr e m ie r A t tr a c t io n 1 0 1 6 ?

20

M R M Y E N I : I a m t h e s o l e s h a r e h o l d e r a n d m a n a g in g m e m b e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

A n d h o w lo n g h a s t h e C l o s e d

C o r p o r a ti o n b e e n in e x is te n c e ?
M R M Y E N I : I t w a s r e g is t e r e d i n 2 0 0 0 m a y b e 2 0 0 7 s o m e w h e r e t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w o r k d o e s it d o ?
M R M Y E N I : M o s t ly c o n s u l ti n g w o r k i n v a r i o u s f i e l d s .

Page 17 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u g i v e u s a s e n s e o f th o s e fi e ld s ?
MR MYENI:

P r o p e r t y, p r o p e r ty d e v e l o p m e n t , ju s t v a r i o u s – i t i s – I

m e a n it is – w h e n I r e g is te r e d t h e e n ti ty r e a ll y i t w a s y o u k n o w m y fi r s t
s o r t o f e n tr y i n to b u s in e s s s o I h a v e d o n e a l o t o f t h in g s o v e r t h e y e a r s
u s i n g th e s a m e e n t it y. H o s p i t a l it y, e v e n ts e tc e t e r a . M a n y t h in g s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you. And what sort of annual turnover

d o e s t h e b u s in e s s h a v e ?
M R M Y E N I : Fl u c t u a t e – i t h a s fl u c t u a t e d o v e r t h e y e a r s s o it i s d i ff ic u l t
t o g iv e a n u m b e r. S o m e y e a r s h a v e b e e n b e t t e r th a n o t h e r s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u g i v e u s a r a n g e ?
M R M Y E N I : I t is d i ff ic u l t to s a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w m a n y s ta ff a r e e m p l o y e d ?
M R M Y E N I : A t d i ffe r e n t p o i n ts d i ff e r e n t s t a ff w a s e m p l o y e d a n d a g a i n
t h e r e is n o c o n s t a n t s t a n d a r d a m o u n t o f s t a ff t h a t is e m p l o y e d . I t w i ll
b e – j u s t d e p e n d s . A n d a ls o i n c e r t a i n – s o m e o f t h e p r o je c t s w e d o
n o t n e e d t o e m p l o y fu ll ti m e s t a ff s o w e s o r t o f s u b - c o n t r a c t o r y o u
k n o w g e t c o n s u lt a n ts i n o r w h a te v e r i t is .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n 2 0 1 5 h o w m a n y s t a ff d i d i t e m p l o y ?
MR MYENI: I cannot say for sure.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w w o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o s a y fo r s u r e ?
MR MYENI: Maybe I would need to check SARS records for maybe Pay
A s Yo u E a r n o r s o m e t h in g l ik e t h a t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R M Y E N I : A n d m a y b e – ja t h a t w o u ld b e – I d o n o t r e a lly h a v e th e
records.

Page 18 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e a s e n s e o f 1 , 2 , 2 0 , 3 0 ?
MR MYENI:

N o n o t 2 0 , 3 0 m a y b e – I d o n o t k n o w.

I c a n n o t – i t is

d i ff ic u l t to s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e b i g g e s t n u m b e r t h a t t h e c lo s e c o r p o r a ti o n
h a s h a d o v e r t h e y e a r s in t e r m s o f s t a ff? T h e h ig h e s t n u m b e r th a t y o u
remember that it reached.
M R M Y E N I : I - I c a n n o t s a y C h a ir. As I s a i d y o u k n o w w e - w e w o u ld
e m p l o y p e o p l e o n a p r o j e c t b y p r o j e c t b a s is .
permanent.
10

Some not.

Some would be

S o i t is - a n d I m e a n i t is 2 0 1 5 .

I - I r e a l ly

cannot recall what … (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o - n o . I a m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t 2 0 1 5 . I j u s t t a lk
a b o u t t h e e n t ir e p e r i o d s i n c e i t w a s r e g i s t e r e d .

W h a t is th e h i g h e s t

number that you can remember to say well the - the highest number of
s t a ff t h a t I h a v e e v e r h a d is 1 0 o r 2 0 o r …
M R M Y E N I : I t is d i ff ic u l t .
CHAIRPERSON: Or seven?
M R M Y E N I : I t is d i ffi c u l t t o s a y C h a ir, b e c a u s e a ls o I - y o u k n o w I r u n
a n u m b e r o f b u s i n e s s e s . S o t o - t o p i n p o i n t w h o is e m p l o y e d w h e r e a t
a n y g iv e n p o i n t is q u i t e d i ff ic u l t . S o I d o n o t w a n t t o s a y a n u m b e r a n d
20

then …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R M Y E N I : T h a t is n o t t h e n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u ld y o u r s t a ff u n d e r t h i s C C a ls o h e lp i n o th e r

b u s i n e s s e s t h a t y o u h a v e o t h e r th a n t h is …
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .

Page 19 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is C C ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Th a t i s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm …
MR MYENI: And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t - a n d w h a t is t h e l o w e s t n u m b e r it h a s e v e r
h a d i n te r ms o f … ?
MR MYENI:

I t w o u l d a l w a y s - i t w o u ld a l w a y s h a v e o n e .

Which is

myself?
CHAIRPERSON: One?
10

M R M Y E N I : W h i c h is m y s e l f a s a m a n a g i n g m e m b e r a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : S o i t w i ll a l w a y s h a v e a t l e a s t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h a t - th a t is o n e o th e r th a n y o u r s e lf a s a

member of the CC?
M R M Y E N I : N o . I a m s a y i n g i t w il l a l w a y s h a v e m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Okay …
M R M Y E N I : In t h e e m p lo y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s o m e t i m e s y o u w o u l d h a v e s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . S o m e t i m e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M Y E N I : T h e r e is o t h e r p e o p l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o m e ti m e s i t w o u l d j u s t b e y o u r s e l f ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .

Page 20 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M Y E N I : T h a n k s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e a r e i ts o ffic e s ?
M R M Y E N I : O k a y. C u r r e n tl y w e a r e in S a n d t o n . B a s e d i n S a n d t o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e w e r e y o u p r e v i o u s ly ?
M R M Y E N I : I t h a s a l w a y s b e e n in S a n d to n , b u t w e j u s t m o v e d v a r io u s
o ffic e s w it h in t h e S a n d to n a r e a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a v e y o u e v e r h a d o ff ic e s a t D e s ig n Q u a r t e r in
Fourways?
10

MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h a v e y o u e v e r e m p l o y e d a M r M o k o to n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o s p e ll t h a t n a m e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C e r ta in ly C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u f o r t h e r e m in d e r.

T h a t is M- O - K- O - T- O - N - G .
M R M Y E N I : C a n y o u s a y t h e fir s t n a m e p l e a s e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M o e k e ts i.
MR MYENI: Oh yes. No. Never employed him. No …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y.
M R M Y E N I : B u t w e w e r e i n a b u s i n e s s r e la ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e m a t s o m e
20

point.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l c o m e t o t h a t.
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Mr M y e n i y o u r e c e i v e d a R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 6

d ir e c t iv e fr o m t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e C o m m i s s io n .

R e q u ir in g y o u to

g iv e t h e C o m m is s i o n o n a ff i d a v i t a ll t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d

Page 21 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
a v a i la b le t o y o u .

Yo u r k n o w l e d g e o f a n d y o u r r e c o r d s o f t w o s e ts o f

tr a n s a c ti o n s . D o y o u r e c a l l th a t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . I d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t I w o u l d l ik e to d o i n y o u r e v i d e n c e is
f o c u s o n th o s e t w o s e ts o f t r a n s a c t io n s …
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d I t a lk a b o u t t h e m a s tw o s e t s , b e c a u s e

t h e r e i s a tr a n s a c t io n . Th e o n e th a t I r e f e r r e d t o i n t h e o p e n in g o f th e
e v i d e n c e w h e r e V N A C o n s u l ti n g p a id R 2 m ill i o n t o P r e m ie r A t t r a c t i o n .
10

MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t o c c u r r e d in J u n e 2 0 1 5 . A r e y o u a w a r e o f
that?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you and then

the second set of

tr a n s a c ti o n s a r e p a y m e n ts m a d e l a t e r i n 2 0 1 5 a n d e a r l y 2 0 1 6 f r o m
P r e m i e r A t t r a c t i o n to a n e n ti ty c a l le d I s i b o n e l o . A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h o s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . I a m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Thank you.

S o l e t u s s ta r t w i th t h e f ir s t s e t .

T h a t i s t h e p a y m e n t f r o m V N A C o n s u l ti n g t o P r e m i e r A t t r a c ti o n . D o y o u
r e c a l l th e d a t e o n w h ic h t h a t p a y m e n t w a s m a d e ?
MR MYENI:

No.

I - I k n o w r e c e i v e d th e - b u t I d o n o t r e c a ll w h a t -

w h a t d a t e i t w a s n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e a c t u a lly …
MR MYENI: Sometime in 2015 though.

Page 22 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I t w a s 1 9 J u n e 2 0 1 5 .
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y.
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w i f w e g o t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d
t o th e C o m m is s i o n i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e d ir e c ti v e .

Yo u w i ll f in d t h a t a t

page 1 of EXHIBIT DD27.
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld lik e to p i c k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 3 t h e r e .
10

C o u ld y o u p l e a s e in d i c a t e t o t h e C h a ir a n d t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h a t y o u r y o u i n d i c a t e d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h is y o u r b e s t r e c o l le c t i o n a b o u t t h a t
payment?
M R M Y E N I : S o r r y. P l e a s e s a y t h a t a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C o u l d y o u p l e a s e i n d i c a t e to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n

w h a t y o u s ta t e i n p a r a g r a p h 3 is w h a t y o u r b e s t …
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R e c o l l e c ti o n w a s …
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e l a ti o n t o th a t p a y m e n t ?
20

M R M Y E N I : Ye s . I t i s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And what was that?

W h y d i d y o u r e c e iv e t h e

payment?
MR MYENI: Must I read what I said or …?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n r e a d i t o r y o u c a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n r e a d o r y o u c a n ju s t s a y i t.

Page 23 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYENI: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MYENI:

So it - we were involved in a housing development in

M p u m a la n g a - p r iv a t e h o u s i n g d e v e l o p m e n t - a n d w e w e r e r e n d e r i n g
s o m e s e r v ic e s - c o n s u lt i n g s e r v ic e s t h r o u g h P r e m ie r A t tr a c t io n a n d w e
r e c e i v e d th a t p a y m e n t f o r w o r k d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

And the reference to Mpumalanga is a reference to

t h e M p u m a la n g a P r o v i n c e ?
M R M Y E N I : Pr o v i n c e . Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y.

No.

In K Z N t h e r e is a t o w n s h ip c a l l e d

M p u m a la n g a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . R i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: So …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e - w e a r e ta l k in g a b o u t t h e p r o v in c e h e r e .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. C o u l d y o u t e l l u s a l it t le b i t m o r e ? W h a t
- w h a t w a s t h e p r o je c t a b o u t ?
MR MYENI:
20

W e ll i t w a s a - a p r o j e c t s p e c i fic a lly to b u il d o r

d e s i g n / b u i ld h o u s in g f o r - I d o n o t k n o w h o w y o u c l a s s i fy, b u t i t w a s
w o r k e r s - s o r t o f G o v e r n m e n t w o r k e r s f o r - l ik e n u r s e s a n d t e a c h e r s
e tc e t e r a . T h a t k in d o f l e v e l a n d t h e y w o u l d t h e n b e a s s i s t e d t o s e c u r e
b o n d s t o b u y th o s e p r o p e r ti e s , b u t t h e y w e r e b e in g d e v e l o p e d w i t h a
s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e t o l o o k i n g a t t h e ir a ff o r d a b il i ty e t c e t e r a a n d I t h in k i n
t h a t a r e a th e r e - t h e r e w a s a s h o r t a g e o f - o f p r o p e r ti e s o f t h a t n a t u r e .

Page 24 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
S o th a t - th a t i s r e a l ly w h a t - w h a t i t w a s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t p a r t ic u l a r a r e a ?
M R M Y E N I : I fo r g o t t h e n a m e o f th e - t h e a r e a n o w in M p u m a la n g a . I
do not want to guess the name. It might have been Emzinoni. Maybe.
I h a v e - I h a v e fo r g o t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f th e p r o j e c t ?
M R M Y E N I : I d o n o t th i n k i t h a d a s p e c i f ic n a m e . It c o u l d h a v e b e e n
t h e n a m e o f th e a r e a . H o u s i n g d e v e l o p m e n t. S o i f i t w a s E m z i n o n i . I t
w o u ld b e E m z i n o n i H o u s i n g d e v e lo p m e n t . I w o u l d …
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t e x te n s i o n o f E m z i n o n i?
MR MYENI: No. I do not.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e w a s i t l o c a t e d ?

D i d y o u e v e r v is i t

t h e s i te ?
M R M Y E N I : I n M p u m a la n g a . N o . O u r w o r k d id n o t r e q u ir e u s to r e a l ly
v is it t h e s i t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d ju s t g i v e u s a l it t le b i t m o r e in s i g h t . W h a t
p a r t ic u l a r s e r v ic e s d i d P r e m i e r r e n d e r to V N A i n r e l a ti o n t o th e p r o j e c t?
MR MYENI:

M o s tl y d e s i g n w o r k f o r t h e a c t u a l s tr u c t u r e s . T h e a c t u a l

houses.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h o w m a n y p e o p l e d id y o u h a v e w o r k i n g o n
the project?
MR MYENI:

T h e r e w a s a lo t o f p e o p le w o r k in g o n t h e p r o j e c t .

A

c o m b in a ti o n o f p e o p le fr o m V N A a n d P r e m i e r A t tr a c t io n . I c a n n o t r e c a l l
t h e n u m b e r n o w, b u t t h e r e w a s a c o u p l e o f p e o p l e t h a t w e r e b r o u g h t in .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r r o l e ?

Page 25 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R M Y E N I : I w a s m a n a g i n g t h e w o r k fr o m th e P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n s i d e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o d i d y o u d e a l w i th a t V N A ?
M R M Y E N I : I d e a l t w i t h M r N a ic k e r m a y b e - th e s u r n a m e . Mr Vi k a s h I k n o w h is s u r n a m e i s Vik a s h . M r Vik a s h N a ic k e r. I - I s u s p e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k h i s s u r n a m e is N a r s a i .
MR MYENI: Oh Narsai.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e r e c o r d th a t i s s p e lt N - A - R - S- A - I .
10

M R M Y E N I : Ye s . A p o l o g i e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a l l a n d a n y o n e e l s e ?
M R M Y E N I : J a . T h e r e w e r e a c o u p l e o f p e o p le t h a t w e w o r k e d w i th . I
c a n n o t r e c a l l w h o t h e y a r e n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h o w l o n g h a d y o u k n o w n Mr N a r s a i ?
M R M Y E N I : I c a n n o t r e c a ll .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d y o u k n o w n h i m b e fo r e t h is w o r k ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Ye s . D e f in i te ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s b e f o r e th a t?
MR MYENI:

20

I - I c a n n o t r e c a ll .

I do not know if it was a number of

y e a r s . M a y b e n o t y e a r s , b u t i t h a d b e e n s o m e ti m e p r i o r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d h a d y o u w o r k e d t o g e t h e r b e f o r e th is

project?
M R M Y E N I : N o . I d o n o t - n o . I d o n o t th i n k s o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w a t p a r a g r a p h 4 o n p a g e 11 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t
you say:

Page 26 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
“VNA

C o n s u lt i n g

was

the

main

independent

c o n tr a c to r a n d / o r c o n s u l t a n t f o r t h e s a i d p r o j e c t . ”
MR MYENI: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t p a r a g r a p h 5 y o u s a y :
“ P r e m i e r A t tr a c t io n w a s s u b c o n tr a c te d b y V N A . ”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u g o o n a n d y o u d e s c r ib e in p a r a g r a p h 5
w h a t Pr e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n w a s c o n t r a c t e d t o d o .
10

Yo u s a y t h e r e a n d I

quote:
“ I t w a s s u b c o n tr a c te d b y V N A a s c o n s u l t a n t s t o
“c a r r y o u t s o m e o f V N A’s s e r v ic e s o r s c o p e o f w o r k
in r e s p e c t t o t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d p r o j e c t . ”
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d I t h i n k th e e v id e n c e y o u g a v e a m o m e n t

a g o w a s th a t t h e w o r k t h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g w a s d e s i g n w o r k o n
s tr u c t u r e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
20

M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s th e a r r a n g e m e n t i n s o f a r a s f e e s
w e r e c o n c e r n e d f o r Pr e m i e r ’s w o r k ?
MR MYENI:
ja .

Well we agreed on scope of work and I mean I assume -

We would have agreed on scope of work and then he fee for that

w o r k . Th e r e w a s n o fo r m u l a .

Page 27 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t - w h a t w a s t h e a r r a n g e m e n t ?
MR MYENI:

T h e r e w a s n o fo r m u l a .

When you say arrangement what

do you mean?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e f e e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t w h a t r a t e w a s y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t io n g o i n g t o b e
paid …
M R M Y E N I : O h . S o w e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o o n ? W h a t w a s t h e - th a t is w h a t s h e i s t a lk i n g
a b o u t.
10

M R M Y E N I : O h y e s . S o - a p o l o g i e s . S o w e d id n o t h a v e lik e a n h o u r l y
k in d o f - i t w a s n o t l ik e t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t . S o w e h a d a s e t a m o u n t o f
m o n e y t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o r e c e i v e a n d a s e t o f s e r v ic e s t h a t w e h a d t o
do and that was it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h e a m o u n t t h a t y o u w e r e to r e c e i v e ?
M R M Y E N I : R 2 m i ll io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R 2 m il li o n a n d h o w w e r e y o u g o i n g to a c c o u n t
f o r t h a t R 2 m il li o n ?
M R M Y E N I : Ac c o u n t i n w h a t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u g o i n g t o … ?

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w e r e y o u g o in g to d o ? H o w m u c h - h o w m u c h
w o r k w e r e y o u r e q u ir e d to d o in o r d e r t o e a r n t h e R 2 m il li o n ?
MR MYENI:

Ja.

S o i t w a s t h e s c o p e o f s e r v ic e s t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e

h a d a t t h e t i m e w h ic h I - I o b v i o u s ly c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c t ly n o w w h a t i t
w a s , b u t t h a t is - s o t h a t is h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o a c c o u n t . W e a r e g o i n g
t o d e l iv e r o n t h e w o r k th a t w e h a d t o d o .

Page 28 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u h a v e n o r e c o l le c ti o n o f p r e c is e l y w h a t
that work was?
M R M Y E N I : M a i n l y it w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d d e s ig n , s p a c e p l a n n i n g ,
p l a n n in g w h e th e r t o h a v e s i n g l e s t o r e y, d o u b l e s t o r e y h o u s e . J a . I t is
- I c a n n o t r e a lly r e c a ll e x a c tly w h a t it w a s , b u t i t w o u ld a r o u n d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o v e r w h a t … ?
MR MYENI: That.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And over what period were you going to be

d o i n g t h is w o r k t h a t w o u ld e a r n y o u R 2 m i l li o n ?
10

M R M Y E N I : W e l l i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a s q u ic k l y a s w e c o u l d f in is h t h e
work I guess.

I t w a s n o t - th e r e w a s n o r e a ll y d e fi n e d p e r io d , b u t I

m a d e s u r e t h e d e v e l o p m e n t it s e l f a s a w h o l e h a d a p e r i o d - d e fi n e d
p e r i o d o f w h e n it n e e d e d to r e s e t m i le s to n e s , b u t f o r u s a n d m a y b e a t
t h e ti m e w e d i d h a v e a - I - I r e a lly c a n n o t r e c a l l th e e x a c t d e ta il s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e a s e n s e o f w h e n y o u s ta r t e d t h i s
work?
M R M Y E N I : N o . I - I d o n o t h a v e a s e n s e o f t h e t i m e s e x a c tl y, b u t i t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e d e v e l o p m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n w a s t h a t ?
20

M R M Y E N I : I d o n o t k n o w. I c a n n o t r e c a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e p a y m e n t w a s i n 2 0 1 5 . Is i t n o t?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u n e 2 0 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: June 2015.
MR MYENI:

Ye s , b u t C h a ir i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n - i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n

e v e n in 2 0 1 4 th a t th e d e v e lo p m e n t w o u l d h a v e o r t h e d e v e l o p e r …

Page 29 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M Y E N I : W o u ld h a v e s a i d t o V N A h e r e is a c o n tr a c t . T h i s is w h a t
w e a r e l o o k in g f o r, b e c a u s e i t is q u i t e i n v o lv e d C h a ir.

Th is t h in g

in v o lv e s b u lk w o r k s . Yo u h a v e to f ig u r e o u t w h e r e t h e p i p e s a r e g o i n g
t o r u n a n d it is q u i te a lo t o f w o r k . S o - ja . I c a n n o t r e a lly s a y w h e n
and how long and all of that.
CHAIRPERSON:

So do you - do you know whether at the time when

y o u r e c e iv e d t h e p a y m e n t y o u c o m p l e te d y o u r p a r t o f t h e w o r k ?
MR MYENI: I would have - I would assume yes.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : W e w o u ld h a v e c o m p l e te d o u r w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot remember when - when you may have
c o m p le t e d - w h i c h m o n t h a n d s o o n ?
M R M Y E N I : N o . I c a n n o t - I c a n n o t r e c a l l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
n o t e M r My e n i .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I - I h a v e ju s t b e e n s e n t a

I f y o u w o u l d n o t m i n d r a i s in g a v o ic e a b i t w h e n y o u

speak.
MR MYENI: Sure.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is j u s t n o t b e e n r e c o r d e d a s w e ll a s it s h o u ld
be.
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u h e l p t h e n Mr M y e n i w i th w h a t t h e

SACPCMP is?
M R M Y E N I : I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h a t is ?

Page 30 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
A fr ic a n

C o u n c il

for

Yo u a r e n o t s u r e .
Pr o je c t

and

D o y o u k n o w th e S o u t h

C o n s tr u c ti o n

Management

Professionals?
M R M Y E N I : N o t r e a l ly. N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No.

D o y o u k n o w t h a t t h e y a r e a b o d y th a t

p u b lis h e s g u i d e l in e s f o r t h e s c o p e o f s e r v ic e s o n t h e s e t y p e s o f
h o u s i n g p r o j e c ts ?
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d o n o t k n o w t h a t?
10

MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r.

M r M y e n i,

fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d in y o u r a ffi d a v it i t a p p e a r s th a t e ff e c ti v e ly y o u
s a y y o u w e r e s u b c o n tr a c t e d b y V N A . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u s u b c o n tr a c t t h e w o r k f u r t h e r t o s o m e b o d y

e ls e o r d i d - d id y o u d o i t y o u r s e l f ?
MR MYENI:

Ja.

S o w e w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t in o t h e r c o n s u l t a n t s t o

c o m e i n a n d d o c e r ta i n a s p e c ts m a y b e o f w o r k t h a t w e c o u l d n o t d o i n
20

h o u s e o r w h a te v e r i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n , b u t - j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e s u b c o n tr a c te d i t a s s u c h .
Yo u w o u ld h a v e b r o u g h t i n p e o p l e t o …
MR MYENI: Ja. So - so …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To h e l p y o u d o t h e w o r k ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . S o s i m il a r l y e v e n w i t h t h is s u b c o n tr a c t in g . I d o n o t

Page 31 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t h i n k i t i s - y o u m u s t d e f in e i t a s - a s s tr o n g ly a s s u b c o n tr a c t in g p e r s e ,
b u t w e w e r e b r o u g h t i n t o p r o v id e c e r ta i n s k i lls a n d t o d o c e r t a in w o r k
t o w a r d s t h e p r o j e c t . S o s i m i la r ly i f w e n e e d e d to a l s o b r i n g i n c e r ta i n
y o u k n o w s k il ls o r e x p e r t is e w e w o u l d d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

So you say your arrangement might not have been

s u b c o n tr a c t in g i n t h e tr u e s e n s e ?
MR MYENI:

Ye s .

Ja.

I m e a n i t - i t i s s u b c o n tr a c t in g i n p r a c t ic e ,

because …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR MYENI:

T h e y a r e t h e m a i n c o n tr a c to r.

T h e y r e c e iv e th e c o n tr a c t

a n d t h e n t h e y f a r m o u t w o r k t o w h o m e v e r it is t h a t t h e y fe e l th e y w a n t
t o b r in g o n b o a r d t o t h e p r o je c t . S o i n a s e n s e i t is s u b c o n tr a c t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

Did you conclude any written

a g r e e m e n ts to c a p tu r e t h e a r r a n g e m e n t th a t y o u h a d w i t h V N A ?
MR MYENI:

I c a n n o t r e c a l l , b u t I w o u l d t h i n k t h a t w e w o u ld h a v e

c a p tu r e d s o m e th i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M R M Y E N I : J a . I t h i n k w e s h o u l d h a v e . W e w o u ld h a v e .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w r it t e n r e c o r d ?
MR MYENI: There - there would have maybe.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u h a v e n o r e c o r d s y o u r s e l f th o u g h o f t h a t.

Do you?
MR MYENI:

No.

W e a c tu a l ly h a v e n o r e c o r d s o f y o u k n o w t h e - t h e

p r o j e c t . I m e a n o f - w e h a v e - w e h a v e l o o k e d . W e h a v e tr ie d t o f in d

Page 32 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
d o c u m e n ts .

W e c a n n o t fi n d t h e m .

W e h a v e m o v e d o ffi c e s e tc e t e r a .

S o I d o n o t h a v e a n d I m e a n i t is fr o m 2 0 1 5 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR MYENI: We do not keep the records that long.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u d o n o t ?

Why - why do you not keep

r e c o r d s th a t l o n g ?
M R M Y E N I : W e ll I g u e s s o n e d i d n o t a n t i c ip a t e t h a t i t w o u l d b e a s k e d
q u e s t io n s a b o u t i t f iv e y e a r s l a t e r. I m e a n if I h a d t o k e e p r e c o r d s o f
e v e r y t h i n g fr o m 2 0 1 7 t h a t w o u ld b e q u i t e - q u i te a lo t o f r e c o r d s to
10

keep.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e r e is u s u a l ly a s ta t u to r y r e f e r e n c e -

c e r t a i n l y f o r c o m p a n i e s . T h a t t h e y k e e p r e c o r d s fo r f iv e y e a r s . I s t h a t
n o t a p r o v is io n t h a t y o u h a v e p u t i n p l a c e i n y o u r b u s i n e s s ?
M R M Y E N I : N o . N o t n e c e s s a r il y, b e c a u s e m o s tly th e l in e o f w o r k t h a t
w e - w e d o . W e - I d o n o t t h i n k i t f a l ls w i t h i n th a t . Th a t th e r e a s o n w h y
we should keep them that long.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a ls o s a i d i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u h a v e n o
e m a i l c o m m u n i c a t io n s e i th e r.

Yo u w i ll s e e a t p a g e 2 .

Yo u s a y a t

paragraph 7:
20

“ I d o n o t h a v e a n y e m a i l c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e l a ti n g t o
t h e s e p a y m e n ts a s I d i d n o t k e e p a n y r e c o r d s i n
respect thereof.”
MR MYENI: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u j u s t h e l p m e w it h w h a t th a t m e a n s ?

T h a t y o u d i d n o t k e e p a n y r e c o r d s o f e m a il c o m m u n ic a ti o n s .

Page 33 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R M Y E N I : I t h in k m a y b e t h a t is n o t c a p t u r i n g w h a t w e w e r e tr y in g to
s a y c o r r e c t ly …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR MYENI:

B u t I w a s a n s w e r i n g t o a q u e s ti o n a r o u n d “ d o y o u h a v e

a n y e m a il s ? ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
MR MYENI: “Do you have any records?”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m .
M R M Y E N I : E tc e t e r a . S o I t h in k w e j u s t s o r t o f g r o u p e d it in t o o n e b u t
10

b a s ic a lly w h a t I w a s s a y in g is t h a t I w e n t t h r o u g h m y e m a i ls .
s in c e c h a n g e d l a p to p s a n d c o m p u t e r s m u l ti p le ti m e s .

I have

I do not have

t h o s e e m a i ls a n d I d o n o t h a v e a n y p h y s i c a l r e c o r d s o f - o f a n y o f th e
d o c u m e n ts w h e t h e r i t w o u l d b e t h e a g r e e m e n t I j u s t s p o k e o f e tc e t e r a
… ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d .
MR MYENI: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Can you just help me with another acronym?

D o y o u k n o w w h o P R O C S A is ?
MR MYENI: No. I do not.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w o u ld - i t w o u ld b e n e w to y o u t o l e a r n
that

they

are

the

Pr o fe s s io n a l

Consultants

S e r v ic e s

Agreement

C o m m i t t e e . W o u l d i t?
M R M Y E N I : S u r e . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w o u l d b e n e w s t o y o u if y o u h a d s ig n e d a n
agreement that had been designed by PROCSA if you did not know

Page 34 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
PROCSA?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a g a i n ju s t to tr y a n d g e t th e c h r o n o l o g y a
b i t c le a r e r h e r e . T h e p a y m e n t w a s i n J u n e 2 0 1 5 . R i g h t . C a n y o u g i v e
u s s o m e i d e a o f w h e n V N A fi r s t e n g a g e d y o u t o s u p p ly s e r v i c e s fo r t h e
project?
MR MYENI:
10

I do not know what to say except it would have been for

t h e p a y m e n t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l th a t w o u ld c e r t a i n l y b e t h e c a s e . W o u l d i t
not?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a s s u m e fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u i d e n t i fi e d
V N A w a s th e m a in c o n tr a c to r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - w e ll I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y w e n o t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e h a v e h a d l o ts o f e v i d e n c e c o m e s b e f o r e w o r k is

done.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

It i s tr u e .

I t is tr u e , b u t I u n d e r s ta n d

M r My e n i ’s - h e - h e c a n n o t b e m o r e s p e c i fi c t h a n t o s a y th e a g r e e m e n t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o n c l u d e d p r i o r t o t h e p a y m e n t .

Ar e y o u - a r e y o u

c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h a t e v i d e n c e ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e o t h e r t h i n g I w a n t to d o ju s t t o t r y a n d

Page 35 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
h e l p w i th t h e c h r o n o lo g y is .

If VNA was the main contractor and you

were brought in by them.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I a s s u m e th e i r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e c li e n t

w o u ld h a v e b e e n e s t a b l is h e d f ir s t . Th e n t h e y w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t y o u
in a n d a t s o m e l a te r p o i n t y o u w o u ld h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e p a y m e n t .

Is

t h a t a f a i r d e s c r i p ti o n o f th e c h r o n o lo g y ?
M R M Y E N I : S o r r y. P l e a s e s a y t h a t a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

S o w e h a v e a lr e a d y e s t a b l is h e d in y o u r

e v i d e n c e y o u r a g r e e m e n t w it h V N A w o u l d h a v e p r e c e d e d t h e p a y m e n t
on 19 June 2015.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then I said your evidence before the

C o m m i s s i o n h a s b e e n t h a t V N A w a s t h e m a i n c o n tr a c t o r …
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p p o i n t e d t o t h e c l ie n t …
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t y o u w e r e th e n b r o u g h t i n b y V N A . Is
that correct?
MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . E x p la i n w h y.
MR MYENI: Because I know the client.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R ig h t .

S o r r y.

I th o u g h t th a t y o u r e v i d e n c e

Page 36 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
e a r l ie r w a s th a t V N A h a d c o n t r a c t e d y o u .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t w a n t t o u s e t h e f o r m a l t e r m o f …
M R M Y E N I : S u b c o n tr a c t o r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u b c o n tr a c t o r.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So

th a t

led

me

to

conclude

that

th e ir

a r r a n g e m e n t w i th t h e c li e n t w o u l d h a v e p r e c e d e d y o u r b e in g i n v o l v e d …
MR MYENI: No.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t is th a t n o t th e c a s e ?
M R M Y E N I : N o , b e c a u s e I k n e w t h e c li e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h o w d id y o u b e c o m e in v o lv e d ?
M R M Y E N I : In v o lv e d i n w h a t e x a c t ly ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To p r o v i d e t h e s e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p r o j e c t . I n th e p r o je c t .
M R M Y E N I : In - o k a y. To p r o v id e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. How did you …?
M R M Y E N I : T h e r e a r e tw o th i n g s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R M Y E N I : Tw o p r o v i d e t h e s e r v ic e s a n d t h e n p r o j e c t a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t
things.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MYENI:

S o i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o je c t I k n o w t h e c li e n t .

I k n o w th e

p r o j e c t o w n e r a n d t h r o u g h a s e r i e s o f c o n v e r s a ti o n s a n d d is c u s s i o n s
w h ic h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r h o w th e y r e a l ly w e n t a n d m a y b e a s - a s y o u

Page 37 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
h a v e s a i d Ms H o f m e y r. T h e s e b o d ie s t h a t y o u ta lk o f t h a t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n w h y V N A w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e c o n tr a c t o r t o t h e c li e n t - t o t h e
project.
To f u l f il a l l t h o s e t h i n g s w h ic h I a s s u m e t h e y h a d . Th e n th e y
b r o u g h t u s in s e p a r a t e ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y b e i n g V N A ?
M R M Y E N I : V N A , b r o u g h t u s i n s e p a r a te ly, b u t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : I h a v e a l w a y s - I k n e w th e p r o je c t o w n e r - t h e d e v e l o p e r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h a t is fi n e , b u t t h a t i s a s e p a r a t e m a t te r.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m tr y i n g t o d e a l w i t h c h r o n o l o g y …
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e y o u r c o n s i s te n t t e s ti m o n y h a s b e e n

V N A is t h e m a i n c o n tr a c t o r a n d th e n t h e y b r i n g y o u i n .

R i g h t.

So in

t e r m s o f c h r o n o l o g y I w a n t t o c l a r i fy w i t h y o u . T h e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n
a p p o i n t e d a s t h e m a i n c o n tr a c t o r. T h e n t h e y b r o u g h t y o u in a n d th o s e
t w o e v e n t s m u s t h a v e h a p p e n e d b e fo r e 1 9 J u n e 2 0 1 5 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYENI:
20

Ye s , b u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t i t w i ll f o l lo w t h a t . I k n o w

t h e c li e n t. S o it - i t - V …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c o u ld y o u h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t i n b e f o r e V N A
was the main contractor?
MR MYENI:

So - so when I say brought in.

s u b c o n tr a c t u s o r t o c o n tr a c t w i t h u s .

V N A b r o u g h t u s in t o

W h a t e v e r w e w il l c a l l i t , b u t i t

d o e s n o t m e a n I d id n o t k n o w t h e c l i e n t p r i o r.

Page 38 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u h a v e a n y i n v o lv e m e n t i n t h e p r o j e c t o t h e r

t h a n y o u r i n v o lv e m e n t a t t h e r e q u e s t o f V N A ?
M R M Y E N I : N o o th e r in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r o n l y i n v o l v e m e n t i n th e p r o j e c t w a s v i a y o u r
a r r a n g e m e n t w i th V N A ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t is c o r r e c t t o s a y V N A b r o u g h t y o u i n t o t h e

project. Is that right?
MR MYENI: Not into the project, because I already knew of the project
10

a n d I k n e w t h e d e v e lo p e r o f th e p r o j e c t . I ju s t d id n o t h a v e a - a r o l e i n
t e r m s o f s e r v ic e s to p l a y a t t h e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, no when - when we - when I say brought you
in .

F ir s t ly y o u w e r e th e o n e w h o u s e d t h a t t e r m in o lo g y th a t V N A

b r o u g h t y o u in .

I mean for purposes of doing the work that you - we

are talking about.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Th e y - t h e y b r o u g h t y o u i n fo r p u r p o s e o f d o i n g
that work?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w a s t h e c li e n t ?
M R M Y E N I : I f o r g o t th e c o m p a n y n a m e , b u t M o e k e ts i w o u l d h a v e b e e n
one of them.

Page 39 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M o k o t o n g ?
MR MYENI: Mr … yes. Moeketsi Mokotong.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o k o to n g .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s a n d h e h a d a p a r tn e r a t t h e t i m e a s w e l l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h e n d o y o u r e c a ll y o u r fi r s t in t e r a c ti o n s

w i t h h i m a b o u t t h e p r o je c t?
M R M Y E N I : I c a n n o t s a y, b u t I h a v e d e f in it e l y k n o w n t h e m l o n g e r th a n
10

I k n e w V N A C o n s u lt i n g , b u t I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e n I w o u ld h a v e s t a r te d
t a lk in g t o t h e m a b o u t t h e p r o je c t . I c a n n o t r e c a l l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Mr M y e n i , th e C o m m i s s io n h a s a ls o e n g a g e d

Mr Narsai …
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d V N A C o n s u l ti n g a b o u t t h is p a y m e n t.
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d Mr N a r s a i ’s r e c o l l e c ti o n o f t h e e v e n ts

a r o u n d t h e p r o je c t is d i ff e r e n t t o y o u r s .
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o e s th a t s u r p r i s e y o u ?
M R M Y E N I : I t w il l d e fi n i t e l y s u r p r is e s m e , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s e e w h a t M r N a r s a i s a y s is h e s a y s

P r e m i e r w a s in i ti a l ly t h e d e v e l o p m e n t m a n a g e r t o O p t ic s a n d h e s a y s
y o u a p p o i n t e d v a r io u s c o n s u l ta n ts .

Yo u b e i n g P r e m i e r.

A p p o in t e d

v a r io u s c o n s u l t a n t s t o d o w o r k o n t h e p r i v a te h o u s i n g d e v e l o p m e n t a n d

Page 40 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t h a t i n e a r ly 2 0 1 5 y o u a p p r o a c h e d V N A to t a k e o v e r m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e
project and Mr Narsai has provided the Commission with a pack of
d o c u m e n ts t h a t m a k e u p t h e f il e i n fr o n t o f y o u .
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h h e s a y s is a l l o f t h e r e p o r ts th a t y o u a s
P r e m i e r h a d a r r a n g e d th r o u g h th e p e o p l e t h a t y o u h a d b r o u g h t in t o
a s s is t y o u .

R e m e m b e r y o u s a i d e a r l ie r y o u w o u ld s o m e ti m e s b r i n g

p e o p l e i n f o r s k il ls . S o h e s a y s w h e n V N A w a s g o in g t o b e ta k i n g o v e r
fr o m Pr e m i e r y o u p r o v i d e d t o h i m t h is w a d o f d o c u m e n ts w h i c h a r e
10

r e p o r t s o n a ll s o r t s o f s c o p i n g a s p e c ts f o r t h e h o u s i n g d e v e l o p m e n t .
T h e r e is e l e c tr i c i ty p l a n s . Th e r e i s w a te r a n d s a n i ta t io n a n d
h e s a y s - I a m s u m m a r i s i n g n o w - th e e s s e n c e i s . It i s y o u f ir s t th e r e
a s P r e m ie r a s t h e d e v e l o p m e n t m a n a g e r.

R ig h t .

I t is y o u g e tt i n g a ll

t h e s e c o n tr a c t o r s to d o th is w o r k a n d t o p r e p a r e t h e s e r e p o r t s , b u t th e n
a t a p o in t in e a r l y 2 0 1 5 y o u n e e d V N A t o t a k e o v e r t h e r o ll fr o m y o u .
S o y o u in a s e n s e g i v e t h e m - g iv e V N A a l l t h e r e p o r t s a n d i t
is b e c u e y o u h a n d o v e r t h a t V N A o w e s y o u t w o m il li o n . D o y o u a c c e p t
t h a t th a t i s d i ffe r e n t t o th e v e r s i o n y o u h a v e g iv e n t h i s m o r n i n g ?
M R M Y E N I : I t - i t is v e r y d i ffe r e n t y e s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t is . Ye s . D o e s i t - h e - h e o f c o u r s e h a s a

w a d o f d o c u m e n ts …
MR MYENI: Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To s u p p o r t th e v e r s io n t h a t h e h a s p r o v i d e d .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o e s t h is b e c o m in g fa m i li a r w i t h h is v e r s i o n

Page 41 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
help to jog your memory at all?
MR MYENI: Ja. I do not need my memory jogged per se, but you know
it is d i ffi c u l t t o s a y t h a t M r N a r s a i is b e i n g d is h o n e s t , b u t i t u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h a t i s w h a t i t i s . S o t h o s e d o c u m e n t s w h ic h e v e r t h e y a r e
m u s t b e s i g n e d o ff i f t h e y a r e r e p o r ts . If t h e y a r e a ll o f t h a t . S o t h a t
s h o u l d t e l l u s w h o s i g n e d t h e m o ff , o n e .
Tw o , m y r e c o ll e c t io n t e l ls m e th a t th o s e d o c u m e n ts a c t u a l ly
c a m e fr o m t h e d e v e l o p e r th e m s e lv e s , b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d h a v e h a d t o
d o p r e li m i n a r y w o r k t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e p r o j e c t o r t h e d e v e l o p m e n t
10

w o u ld t a k e o ff o r w o u l d w o r k a n d t h e n w e c a m e in l a te r.

So as to

w h e t h e r y o u k n o w t h e y k n e w th e c li e n t b e f o r e m e . N o . T h a t is n o t t h e
c a s e , b u t i n te r ms o f o u r i n v o lv e m e n t .
O u r in v o lv e m e n t c a m e i n t h r o u g h V N A C o n s u l t in g a n d th e r e is
n o w o r k t h a t w e d id p r i o r.

Th e r e is n o w o r k t h a t w e d i d p r i o r t o u s

b e i n g i n v o lv e d w i t h V N A C o n s u lt i n g . A g a i n y o u c a n c h e c k th o s e - t h o s e
r e p o r t s . I c a n a s s u r e y o u . M y s i g n a t u r e is n o t o n th e m o r a n y o f t h e
p e o p l e t h a t I h a v e e v e r w o r k e d w i t h o r s u b c o n tr a c t e d o r b r o u g h t i n to
consult. That I …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w … ?
20

MR MYENI: That I can be sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

How do you know your signature is not on

those documents?
MR MYENI: Because I did not do those reports.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But how do you know what reports I am

r e fe r r i n g t o ?

Page 42 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYENI:

Yo u - y o u m e n ti o n e d e l e c tr i c i ty s o m e t h in g a n d w h a t e v e r

e ls e th a t y o u m e n ti o n e d . S o w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h o s e t h i n g s t h a t is w h a t
I a m s p e c i f ic a ll y r e s p o n d i n g t o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ar e y o u a b l e t o s a y t h a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n y

r e p o r t t h a t b o r e y o u r n a m e i n r e la t io n to t h is p r o je c t?
MR MYENI:

No.

I c a n n o t s a y th e r e w a s n e v e r a n y r e p o r t , b e c a u s e

o b v i o u s l y w e h a d t o d o w o r k a r o u n d t h e p r o j e c t , b u t I a m s a y in g
e l e c tr ic i t y a n d w h a t e v e r y o u w o u l d h a v e m e n ti o n e d .

That would not

have been our - part of our scope.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u h a v e n o r e c o r d s a t a ll o f t h a t w o r k
t h a t y o u d id ?
M R M Y E N I : N o . U n f o r t u n a t e ly, I d o n o t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d V N A’s v e r s i o n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n is

t h a t a ll o f th e s e v a r i o u s p la n s th a t I w i ll t a k e y o u to n o w w e r e p r o v id e d
b y y o u t o th e m . Is t h a t fa ls e ?
M R M Y E N I : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p o s s ib l e t h a t t h e d e v e l o p e r w o u ld h a v e
g iv e n m e t h e in f o r m a ti o n t o p a s s o n .

I t - I t i s a p o s s i b i li ty.

I do not

w a n t to d e n y t h a t o u tr i g h t w it h o u t r e a l ly r e m e m b e r in g , b u t - j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

L e t u s g o t o s o m e o f t h o s e r e p o r ts i f w e m a y.

Yo u w i ll fi n d t h e f ir s t s e t c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e 1 3 o f D D 2 7 .
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u ju s t h e l p u s w i t h w h a t t h o s e a r e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r.

w a s n o t s e e i n g . S o i t i s f i n e . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 43 of 156

O k a y.

I have seen what I

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: What page are we on to?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e o n p a g e 1 3 o f D D 2 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h a t - w h a t a r e t h e s e - 1 3 r u n s to a b o u t

p a g e 4 2 o r s o . W e l l l e t u s s ta r t b e f o r e t h a t t o 3 8 . T h e y a p p e a r t o b e
d i a g r a m s a n d p l a n s . C a n y o u h e l p u s w i t h w h a t th e y a r e ?
MR MYENI: No, no, no.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u s a y a t p a g e 3 8 ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e p a g e y o u w a n t u s t o l o o k a t r ig h t is ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

What are these?

Yo u c a n ’ t s e e w h a t i t i s .

J a , i t’s n o t c l e a r

CHAIRPERSON:
20

O n e th r e e C h a ir.

I d o n ’ t k n o w, I c a n ’ t s e e w h a t i t i s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

It is 13 indeed.

Is 13?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

Ye s it r u n s fr o m 1 3 t o 3 8 .

J a , t h a t c o p y i s q u i t e b a d , i t’s v e r y p o o r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t w a s th e c o p y t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n

r e c e i v e d fr o m , t h e r e is a b e tt e r c o p y o f t h e s a m e b u t I a m w o r r i e d y o u
m a y h a v e t h e s a m e a n s w e r M r M y e n i b u t m a y b e ju s t a s s i s t u s i f y o u
m a y, g o t o p a g e 2 7 3 i n t h e s a m e b u n d le , D D 2 7
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u s a y 2 7 3

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

2 7 3 in d e e d C h a ir.

Page 44 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

I t s a y s t h e s e w e r la y o u t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

S o w h a t is th a t ?

Is this a document you have seen before?

I d o n ’t r e c a l l I h a v e s e e n t h is o n e , b u t y e s I h a v e s e e n a

s i m il a r d o c u m e n t b e f o r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

J a , I w o u ld h a v e s e e n s o m e t h i n g li k e t h i s y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

MR MYENI:

For the developm ent?

B u t y o u c a n ’ t r e c a ll s e e i n g t h i s o n e ?

T h is o n e e x a c tl y n o .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h is is o n e o f th e o n e s t h a t M r N a r s a i s a i d y o u

p r o v i d e d t o h i m w h e n V N A t o o k o v e r t h e w o r k fr o m y o u a s d e v e l o p m e n t
m a n a g e r, w h a t’s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th a t ?
MR MYENI:

W e ll t h e y d i d n ’ t t a k e o v e r fr o m m e , I w a s n e v e r

d e v e l o p m e n t m a n a g e r, a n d a s I s a i d it is p o s s ib le I w o u l d h a v e s e n t
h i m i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m t h e d e v e l o p e r o r fr o m th e c li e n t , it is p o s s i b le .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

N o , n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t y o u d o n ’ t r e c a ll th is d o c u m e n t ?
Ye s C h a ir.

A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t i t i s p o s s i b le t h a t y o u d id p r o v id e

t h is d o c u m e n t t o h i m a ft e r y o u h a d o b t a i n e d i t fr o m t h e d e v e lo p e r ?
MR MYENI:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, is i t a l s o p o s s i b l e t h a t o th e r d o c u m e n t s t h a t h e

m a y b e r e f e r r i n g t o m a y b e d o c u m e n t s th a t y o u d i d p r o v i d e t o h i m a f t e r
o b t a i n in g th e m fr o m t h e d e v e l o p e r ?
MR MYENI:

Ye s C h a ir

Page 45 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

Mr M o k o t o n g , I j u s t fo r g o t th e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

And who was the developer?

O c te x ?

O h y e s , O c te x I r e m e m b e r n o w y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Wa s i t O c te x ?

So just explain to me why

w o u ld t h e d e v e l o p e r O c te x g iv e y o u d o c u m e n t s t o g iv e to V N A ?
MR MYENI:

D e p e n d in g o n w h e n th e y w o u l d h a v e g iv e n i t t o m e i t is

b e c a u s e w e w e r e w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t s o u n d s li k e y o u w o u ld b e r e c e iv i n g th e m i f

y o u w e r e t h e m a n a g e r, d o e s n ’ t i t? W h y e l s e w o u l d y o u r e c e iv e t h e m t o
g iv e t h e m o n to a m a i n c o n t r a c to r ?
MR MYENI:

W e ll b e c a u s e I k n e w th e d e v e l o p e r p r i o r, I t h i n k w e h a d a

lo n g - s t a n d i n g r e la t io n s h ip o r b e tt e r r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t V N A , s o i t is n o t a
s u r p r is i n g t h in g a n d a ls o a l th o u g h V N A a r e o b v io u s ly i n J o h a n n e s b u r g ,
they

are

based

in

Durban,

so

the

developer

was

based

in

J o h a n n e s b u r g , I a m b a s e d i n J o h a n n e s b u r g , s o I th in k i t w o u l d b e
e a s i e r t o s h a r e in f o r m a ti o n a n d s o m e ti m e s in f o r m a t io n i s q u it e t h ic k to
b e e m a il e d e tc e te r a , s o i t i s – I d o n ’ t s e e . . .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r M y e n i I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i f y o u a n d O c te x

a r e l o c a te d in J o h a n n e s b u r g i t m i g h t b e e a s ie r s a v e fo r t h e a d v a n c e s o f
email

t e c h n o lo g y

for

Octex

to

share

documents

with

you

in

J o h a n n e s b u r g , b u t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t w h y y o u w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e
o n e t o g iv e d o c u m e n ts t o V N A i n D u r b a n i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e th e
m a in r e la t io n s h i p i s b e t w e e n O c t e x a n d V N A .

Page 46 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYENI:

W e w e r e p a r t o f th e p r o j e c t m a ’a m , I d o n ’ t s e e w h a t w o u l d

b e w r o n g w i t h s h a r i n g o f i n fo r m a ti o n ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I a m p r o b in g th e lo g ic o f i t M r My e n i , y o u r

e v i d e n c e is t h a t V N A w a s th e m a i n c o n tr a c t o r t o O c t e x .
MR MYENI:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O n w h a t p o s s ib l e b a s is w o u ld O c t e x g i v e y o u

d o c u m e n ts r e l e v a n t t o t h e p r o j e c t w h e n y o u p la y e d a s u b o r d i n a t e r o l e
to VNA?
MR MYENI:
10

A s I s a i d I c a n ’ t a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t io n b u t m a y b e t o s a y

b e c a u s e th e d o c u m e n ts a r e th ic k , a s I t h i n k w e c a n s e e , t o e m a il th e m
is a b i t d i ffic u lt s o m a y b e t h e y w o u l d h a v e s a i d s e n d i t t o m e a n d I
w o u ld h a v e th e n m e t w i t h V N A a t t h e ir o ffi c e s w h e n e v e r t h e y w e r e i n
J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d t o d i s c u s s t h e m o r t o w o r k t h r o u g h th e m , I h a v e n o
id e a , I c a n n o t te ll y o u w h y b u t t h e r e is n o th in g a b o u t t o s a y w h y d id
t h e y s e n d th e d o c u m e n ts t o m e , I w a s p a r t o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d a s I s a i d I
h a d a n e s t a b li s h e d r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e d e v e l o p e r p r i o r a n d e v e n
o u t s i d e o f t h is d e v e lo p m e n t , s o I d o n ’t s e e a n is s u e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M r M y e n i I n e e d t o p u t i t t o y o u t h a t it is h i g h ly

i m p r o b a b l e t h a t t h e c l i e n t i n th is a r r a n g e m e n t w o u ld h a v e h a d d i ff ic u l t y
20

e m a i li n g r e p o r ts t o t h e ir m a i n c o n tr a c t o r a n d a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f th a t
g a v e t h e m t o y o u to g i v e to t h e m a in c o n tr a c t o r w h e n t h e m a in
c o n tr a c to r h a p p e n e d to tr a v e l u p t o J o h a n n e s b u r g f o r a m e e t in g t o l o o k
a t t h e r e p o r ts , d o y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o t h a t ?
MR MYENI:

S o a s a n e x a m p le w i t h d o c u m e n t l ik e t h a t , s o t h is

d o c u m e n t h a s b e e n r e d u c e d to A 4 s i z e , n o r m a lly t h e s e d o c u m e n t s y o u

Page 47 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
la y o u t o n a t a b l e , s o m a y b e th a t ’s th e r e a s o n w h y I w o u ld h a v e
r e c e i v e d s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s b e c a u s e y o u c o u l d n ’ t e m a il t h e m , a s I
a m t r y i n g t o s a y, b u t ja , o t h e r th a n t h a t I c a n ’ t s a y w h y th e y w o u l d h a v e
s e n t i t to m e e x c e p t f o r t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s p a r t o f th e p r o j e c t a n d I
w o u ld h a v e h a d t o b e p r i v y to s o m e o f t h e s e d o c u m e n ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Why?

Yo u s a i d y o u h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i th

s e w e r w o r k s o r e l e c t r ic i ty ?
MR MYENI:

J a , I n e v e r . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

S o w o u l d y o u h a v e t o h a v e s e e n th e s e

d o c u m e n ts ?
MR MYENI:

B u t y o u h a v e t o b e p r i v y t o d o c u m e n ts – w e ll o k a y o k a y,

so when you have to design a development or you put together your
s tr u c t u r e s e tc e te r a , a s I h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u h a v e t o d e c i d e w h a t
t h e s tr u c t u r e s m u s t lo o k lik e e tc e t e r a , e t c e t e r a , y o u h a v e t o u n d e r s t a n d
w h e r e y o u r s e w e r l in e s r u n , y o u h a v e t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e t h e y ’r e
p l a n n in g th e r o a d s to b e , s o y o u h a v e to b e , y o u h a v e t o a t l e a s t s e e
t h e d o c u m e n ts .

A l l I s a i d I d i d n o t c o m p i le t h e s e r e p o r ts a n d

d o c u m e n ts , it d o e s n ’ t m e a n I n e v e r s a w th e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

MR MYENI:

It is p o s s i b le y e s t h a t I w o r k e d w i th t h e m .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

So you worked with them?

D o y o u r e c a ll w o r k in g w i t h t h e s e d o c u m e n ts ?

I r e c a ll w o r k i n g w i th a l o t o f d o c u m e n ts y e s , w i t h a lo t o f

d o c u m e n ts o n t h e t a b l e th a t w e w o u ld lo o k a t a n d d e c i d e c e r ta in t h i n g s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d ju s t t o b e c l e a r a g a i n y o u s ti ll , y o u h a v e

a b s o l u t e ly n o r e c o r d s o f y o u r d e s i g n w o r k o n t h e s e s t r u c tu r e s ?

Page 48 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYENI:

Maybe Mr Narsai has but I don’t.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MR MYENI:

I beg your pardon, maybe?

M a y b e V N A C o n s u l ti n g h a s , b e c a u s e w e w o u l d h a v e s o r t

o f s e n t e v e r y th in g t o t h e m , t h e y w o u l d h a v e th e n c o m p il e d th e f in a l s o r t
of document and so maybe they have, but I don’t have any records on
hand.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d j u s t to g o b a c k t o w h a t V N A h a s s a i d to

t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d M r N a r s a i , s o y o u r e c a ll t h e o n e b o n e o f
c o n te n ti o n o r c o n fl ic t is y o u s a y t h e y w e r e th e m a in c o n tr a c to r a n d y o u
10

were brought in by them, they say the reverse was the case, you were
in it i a l ly a p p o i n t e d a s t h e d e v e l o p m e n t m a n a g e r b u t h a n d e d o v e r t o
them at a point in 2015.
MR MYENI:

Sure.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n I j u s t b e c le a r y o u r te s ti m o n y to d a y is

V N A is i n c o r r e c t i n it s d e s c r i p ti o n o f th e e v e n t s ?
MR MYENI:

Ye s a n d I w o u ld u r g e a n y o n e to b r i n g a d o c u m e n t t o

r e fl e c t t h a t I w a s t h e m a in c o n tr a c t o r a n d p a s s e d i t o n to th e m .
A n y b o d y w h o h a s t h a t in f o r m a t io n p l e a s e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

B u t y o u w i ll d o r e c a l l a n a g r e e m e n t b e in g

concluded, is that right?
M R M Y E N I:

I s a i d I a m n o t 1 0 0 % s u r e w h e th e r w e c o n c l u d e d a n a c t u a l

a g r e e m e n t a n d w h a t i t w o u l d h a v e lo o k e d li k e , I ju s t k n o w t h a t w e
w o u ld h a v e r e c e i v e d a s c o p e o f s e r v i c e s a n d w e w o u ld h a v e a g r e e d a n
a m o u n t to b e p a i d , b u t b e tw e e n t h e d e v e l o p e r, O c t e x a n d P r e m i e r
A t tr a c t io n th e r e i s n o a g r e e m e n t a p p o i n ti n g u s a s a m a i n c o n tr a c to r.

Page 49 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h a t a g r e e m e n t w a s t h e r e b e t w e e n O c te x

and Premier?
M R M Y E N I:

I d o n ’ t k n o w, I d o n ’t r e c a ll w h a t a g r e e m e n t th e r e w o u ld

have been.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I – M s H o f m e y r m a y b e m e a n i n g a g r e e m e n t

r e a c h i n g o r o r a l , in o th e r w o r d s w h a t w e r e t h e t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t
a s y o u r e m e m b e r t h e m , w h e t h e r i t w a s o r ig i n a l a g r e e m e n t o r a n o r a l
a g r e e m e n t , w h a t i s y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n o f t h e m a in t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s
of your engagement by VNA?
10

MR MYENI:

Th e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a s c o p e o f s e r v ic e s C h a ir a n d

t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n a m o u n t a g r e e d , I c a n ’ t s a y e x a c tl y
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n h e r e is t h e s c o p e o f t h e w o r k t h a t

y o u m u s t p e r f o r m a n d i f y o u d o t h a t m a y b e if y o u fi n is h i t w i th i n a
c e r t a i n ti m e t h e n y o u w il l b e p a id R 2 mi ll i o n .
MR MYENI:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t w a s t h e p e r i o d o f ti m e y o u h a d t o

c o m p le t e th e w o r k s ?
20

MR MYENI:

I c a n ’t r e c a ll .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h is is th e a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n y o u r s e l v e s

a n d th e d e v e l o p e r, O c t e x i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYENI:

N o , w i t h V N A C o n s u l t in g , a s p e r t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Apologies.

Ye s .

I w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t V N A a n d h is c lo s e

Page 50 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
c o r p o r a t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R ig h t , a n d y o u r r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h O c t e x h o w

was that agreed?
MR MYENI:

Agreed in what sense?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e l l d i d y o u h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t a b o u t t h e r o le

y o u w o u l d p l a y d ir e c tl y t o O c t e x ?
MR MYENI:

I d o n ’ t th in k I w o u l d h a v e h a d a n a g r e e m e n t w it h O c t e x .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D e s p i te t h e f a c t th a t th e m u s i n g y o u t o g e t

d o c u m e n ts t o V N A ?
10

MR MYENI:

Th e y w e r e n o t u s i n g m e t o g e t d o c u m e n ts t o a n y b o d y

m a ’a m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I th o u g h t y o u r t e s ti m o n y a m o m e n t a g o h a d

b e e n th a t t h e r e a s o n w h y O c t e x d i d n ’ t ju s t g iv e th e s e d o c u m e n t s
d ir e c t ly t o i ts m a i n c o n tr a c to r V N A , w a s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e u ti li s e d t o
g iv e t h e d o c u m e n t s t o V N A . D i d I h a v e t h a t e v i d e n c e i n c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I:

I w a s s i m p l y j u s t tr y in g t o g iv e y o u a p i c tu r e o f t h e

p o s s i b il it i e s . As I s a i d I d o n ’ t r e c a l l, a l l I s a i d t o y o u th o u g h i s t h a t –
b e c a u s e I k n o w w h a t I w o u l d o r w o u ld n o t h a v e d o n e in te r ms o f w o r k , I
k n o w m y li m i t a ti o n s , s k i ll l e v e l , e x p e r t is e e tc e te r a , s o I w o u l d h a v e
20

n e v e r b e e n a m a i n d e v e lo p e r o r d e v e l o p m e n t m a n a g e r, b e c a u s e I h a v e
n e v e r p r o v id e d th a t s e r v ic e a s a c o m p a n y i n my e n t ir e s o r t o f c a r e e r.
S i m il a r ly th e r e p o r ts t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d to a b o u t t h e e le c tr i c i ty
e tc e t e r a , e t c e t e r a , w e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e d o n e th a t , s o th a t ’s w h a t I w a s
s i m p l y s a y i n g , a n d t h e n in t e r m s o f t h e m u s i n g m e t o g e t d o c u m e n t s I
d o n ’t t h in k th a t is p u t t in g i t c o r r e c tl y. I w a s s i m p ly s a y i n g a p o s s i b i li ty

Page 51 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
w o u ld b e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e b a s e d i n D u r b a n d o c u m e n t s w il l b e s e n t t o
u s b e c a u s e w e a r e a l l w o r k in g to g e th e r. A ls o s o m e o f t h e s e d o c u m e n t s
a s a c t u a l ly n o t A 4 a s y o u s e e t h e m th a t ’s w h y i t ’s d i ff ic u l t t o e v e n s e e
a n d r e a d t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly m u c h b ig g e r th a n t h is .
S o j a , th a t is w h y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O c t e x ju s t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t f r o m y o u r

e v i d e n c e w a s t h e c li e n t i n t h i s a r r a n g e m e n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MYENI:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

W h y t h e n w a s y o u r a r r a n g e m e n t n o t d ir e c tly

with the client?
MR MYENI:

In w h a t w a y m u s t i t b e d ir e c t w i t h t h e c l i e n t ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e l l y o u h a v e e x p l a in e d t h a t p u r s u a n t to t h e

q u e s t io n t h a t I a s k e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f
a n d O c t e x , s o I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h y t h a t w a s n o t t h e c a s e .
MR MYENI:

M a y b e th e r e w e r e s o m e s e r v ic e s th a t ju s t d id n ’t h a v e t h e

e x p e r t is e t o p r o v i d e a n d i f t h e r e w a s c e r t a i n e x p e r i e n c e t h e y w o u l d n ’ t
h a v e s o t h a t ’s w h y w e w o u ld h a v e g o n e , o r t h e y w o u l d h a v e g o n e w i t h
V N A , w h o h a s g o t , w h o h a s d o n e p r o j e c ts o f t h i s s c a l e , s o w e w e r e a
s m a ll e m e r g i n g b la c k c o m p a n y ju s t b e i n g g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty r e a ll y,
20

s o y o u k n o w w e d i d n ’ t h a v e y e a r s a n d y e a r s o f e x p e r ie n c e i n th is .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o I a m n o t s u g g e s ti n g Mr M y e n i t h a t y o u

c o n tr a r y t o V N A’s c a s e w e r e t h e d e v e l o p m e n t m a n a g e r, b e c a u s e I
u n d e r s t a n d y o u to s a y y o u r e j e c t M r N a s a i ’s v e r s io n t h a t y o u p l a y e d
that role.
MR MYENI:

J a , d e fi n i t e l y.

Page 52 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I a m i n te r e s t e d i n w h y f o r y o u r s p e c i fic s c o p e

of services there wasn’t an agreement between yourself and Octex?
MR MYENI:

B e c a u s e o u r w o r k w a s b a s e d o n th e s c o p e t h a t w o u l d

h a v e b e e n g iv e n to V N A , s o V N A w o u ld h a v e g i v e n u s a p o r ti o n o f th e ir
s c o p e o f w o r k , s o th e r e w o u l d h a v e n o t b e e n a n e e d p e r s e t o h a v e a n
a r r a n g e m e n t w i th O c t e x , I d o n ’ t k n o w.

Maybe we might have, you

k n o w I r e a ll y c a n ’ t r e c a ll w h a t w e w o u l d h a v e h a d a n d n o t h a d w i th
O c t e x b e c a u s e a s I s a i d I h a v e k n o w n M r M o k o t o n g a n d h is p a r t n e r fo r
s o m e ti m e s o w e h a v e h a d m a n y d e a l in g s a n d d is c u s s io n s a n d I m e a n
10

y o u s ta r t c o m p a n i e s a n d t h e y d o n ’ t w o r k o u t , a n d s o th e r e c o u l d b e a
lo t o f i n fo r m a ti o n f lo a ti n g a r o u n d o u t th e r e , t h a t I c a n n o t r e c a ll t o d a y,
b u t s p e c i fic a l ly in r e g a r d s to t h i s p r o je c t , t h a t i s w h a t I’ m a n s w e r i n g ,
but

I

don’t

want

to

answer

g e n e r a l ly

and

b r o a d ly

and

then

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o I a m c e r ta i n ly n o t r e q u e s t in g a g e n e r a l

a n s w e r, I a m r e q u e s ti n g a v e r y s p e c i fic a n s w e r a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e
w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d O c t e x .
MR MYENI:

It is p o s s i b le .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

MR MYENI:

It is possible, you don’t recall.

I c a n ’t s a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w e r e d o in g w o r k t o e a r n a f e e o f

R 2 m i ll i o n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYENI:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o e s i t n o t , is t h a t n o t s o m e th in g y o u w o u ld

w a n t t o h a v e c o m m i t t e d t o w r i ti n g , t h e t e r m s o n w h ic h y o u w o u l d b e

Page 53 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
p a i d e tc e t e r a .
MR MYENI:

Ja, sure.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M R M Y E N I:

Ye s . B u t y o u d i d n ’t c o m m i t i t t o w r i t in g .

A s I a m s a y i n g i t is p o s s i b l e w e d i d , b u t I c a n n o t r e c a ll

a n d I d o n ’ t h a v e th a t d o c u m e n t w it h m e , b u t i t is v e r y p o s s ib le t h a t w e
did.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

10

R i g h t . L e t u s th e n g o , if w e m a y to a f e w m o r e

o f t h e s e r e p o r ts .

Yo u w il l f i n d a t p a g e 4 7 . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e t h i s is t h e r ig h t ti m e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y e s , C h a ir.

Ye s ., w e w il l ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l

resume at half past eleven.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, le t u s c o n tin u e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr My e n i ju s t b e fo r e th e b r e a k

I w a s g o in g to ta k e y o u to a n o th e r o f th e r e p o r ts th a t Mr N a r s a i a n d V a n d
20

A h a v e in d ic a te d to th e C o mmis s io n y o u p r o v ide d to th e m , b e c a u s e o f
s u b -c o n tr ac to r s y o u h a d s ec ur e d to d o v a r io u s wo r ks o n th e p r o je c t.
Be fo r e I ta k e y o u th e r e ca n I ju s t c la r ify, yo u r e v ide n c e to d ay is th a t y o u
d id n o t s u b -c o n tr ac t th e s e va r io us e n titie s w h o p r ov id e d r e p or ts . Is th a t
c o r re c t?
MR MYEN I:

W h ic h v a r iou s e n titie s ?

Page 54 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e o n e s th a t w e , I th o u g h t y o u s a id p re v io us ly

y o u d id y o u r o wn w o rk a s Pr e mie r, y o u d id n o t s u b - c on tr a c t to a n y p e o p le
d o in g s e we r o r e le c tr ic ity o r q u a n tity s ur ve y in g o n th e p r o je c t.

Is th a t

r ig h t?
MR MYEN I:

Se w e r, e le c tr ic ity, q u a n tity s u rv e y in g? N o .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , o k a y, le t u s g o th r o u g h e a c h o f th e m s o w e

c a n b e a b so lu te ly c lea r ab o u t y o ur ev id e nce , r ig h t? L e t u s go to Ex h ib it
D D ( 27 ) a t p a g e 4 7 , fo u r, s e v e n . Fo r ty -s e ven . D o y o u s e e th a t?
MR MYEN I:
10

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

It a p p e a r s to b e a b u d g e t r e p o r t p r e p ar e d b y

Q S C o n s u lt Afr ic a , d o y o u s e e th a t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

20

An d c a n y o u h e lp us w ith w h a t th is d o c u me n t is ?

It s a y s it is th e b u d g e t r e p o r t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Is th a t a n e n tity k n o w n to y o u ?

Is th is a d o c u me n t y o u h a d s ee n p r ev io u s ly ?

It is p o s s ib le .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t th e n le t u s ju s t c la r ify, y o u r r e la tio n sh ip w ith

Q S C o n s u lt Afr ic a , d id y o u h a v e a ny r e la tio ns h ip w ith th e m?
MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , th e y w e r e n o t b r o u g h t in to th e p r o je c t a t

y o u r b e he s t?
MR MYEN I:

No.

Page 55 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t y o u ma y h a v e s e e n th is b u d g e t r e p o r t

b e fo r e , is th a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

L e t u s g o to th e n e x t o n e a t p a g e 50 , fiv e z e r o .

W h a t is th a t d o c u me n t?
MR MYEN I:

It s a y s Th e Pr o fe s s ion a l Se r v ic e s C on tr a c t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

It is p o s s ib le , I d o n o t k n o w.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

Is th is a d o c u me n t y o u h a ve s e e n b e fo re ?

D o y o u r e c a ll h a v in g p r o v ide d it to V a n d A

C o n su ltin g ?
MR MYEN I:

U s p r o v id ing it to th e m?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

N o , w e w o u ld n o t h a v e p r o v id e d th e m b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t

th e e mp lo y e r, s o I d o n o t th in k s o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
is a fu r th e r r ep o r t.

Th a n k y o u . An d th e n if w e g o to p a g e 1 4 8 th er e
Th is is s till in Exh ib it D D ( 2 7) .

W h a t is th a t

d o c u me n t?
MR MYEN I:

It s a y s Sc o p e o f Wo r k fo r Pr o je c t Wo r k s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

MR MYEN I:

Is Pr o je c t Wo r k s a n e n tity k n o w n to y o u ?

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

No.

So , d id y o u p r o c u r e Pr o jec t Wo r k s to

p r e p ar e th is r e p o r t?
MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Is it a r e p o r t y o u h a d s e e n p r ior to to d a y ?

It is p o s s ib le .

Page 56 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t a g a in , y o u r e v id e n ce is yo u d id n o t g e t

Pr o je c t Wo r ks in v o lve d o n th is p r o jec t, c o r re c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s . Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d y o u d id n o t s u b mit th is r e p o r t th e n to

V a n d A a s e v id e nc e o f th e w o rk th a t y ou h a d d o n e o n th e p r o jec t,
c o r re c t?
MR MYEN I:

So r r y p le a s e r ep e a t th a t?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u d id n o t p r ov id e th is r e po r t to V a n d A a s

e v id e nc e o f th e w o r k th a t y o u h a d d o n e o n th e p r o je c t?
10

MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

No.

An d a s e v id e n c e o f w o r k th a t y o u h a d

a r r a ng e d to h a v e d o n e o n th e p r o je c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ar r a n g e d ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I a m d r a w in g a d is tin c tio n b e tw e e n Pr e mier its e lf

d o in g th e w o r k a n d y o u o r g a n is in g fo r Pr o je c t Wo r k s to d o th e w o r k . D id
y o u o r g an is e fo r Pr o je c t Wo rk s to d o th is s co p e o f w o r ks ?
MR MYEN I:

N o , I d o n o t th in k s o . I d o n o t th in k s o .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We ll u n til th is p o i n t y o u h a v e b e e n v er y c lea r

th a t th e p r e v io u s re p o r ts y o u we r e n o t r esp o n s ib le fo r pr o cu r in g . Is th e
20

s itu a tio n d iffe r e n t in r e la tio n to Pr o je c t Wo r k s ?
MR MYEN I:

So , w h a t I a m c le a r a b o ut is in r e la tio n to Pr e mie r

Attr a c tio n , b u t a n y o th e r w o rk th a t w o u ld ha v e b e en o u ts o ur c ed I a m n o t
c le a r a b ou t th a t?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t Pr e mie r Attr a c tio n d id n o t o u ts o u r ce th a t

w o r k , is th a t c o r r ec t?

Page 57 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYEN I:

W h ic h w o rk ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e w o r k o f Pr o je c t Wo r k s th a t w e s e e in th is

r e p o r t.
MR MYEN I:

N o , I d o n o t, th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g I d o n o t th in k s o . N o .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Yo u d o n o t th in k s o ?

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u r e v id e n ce is n o t r ig h t. L e t u s g o to th e n e x t

one.
C H A IR PER SO N:
10

I th in k Mis s H o fme yr w an te d to e s ta b lis h w he th e r yo u

a r e a s c a te g o r ica l in r e g a r d to th is w o r k , th is r e p o r t a s y o u h a v e b e e n
w ith r e g a r d to th e o th e r s . I n o tic e th a t y o u s a y y o u d o n o t th in k y o u d id ,
is th a t b e c a u s e y o u ar e n o t s u r e o r a r e you q u ite c le a r th a t y o u d id n o t
p r o v ide s u ch w o rk ?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s - y e s Sir, s o I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th is r e p o r t is fo r. I d o

n o t k n o w w h a t th e w o rk th a t w a s d o n e h e re .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

So , I, w h e n s h e lis te d s e we r, dir e c t.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:
20

Ye s , o k a y, y e s o ka y.

So , I c a n n o t s a y fo r s u r e w h e th e r w e w o u ld ha v e o r n o t.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , y o u w e r e c le ar a b o u t th a t.

Ye s , s o I d o n o t k n o w w h a t Pr o je c t Wo r k s d id .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

O h o k a y.

Th a t is fa ir e n o u g h .

So me time s y o u .. .[in te r v e n e s ].

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We ll, d o e s it n o t fo l lo w th o u g h if y o u d o n o t k n o w

w h a t Pr o je c t Wor ks d id , th a t y o u th e n d id no t p r o v id e th is a s e v id en c e o f

Page 58 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
th e w o r k th a t y o u a r ra n g e d b e d on e o n th e p r o je c t b y Pr o je c t Wo rk s .
MR MYEN I:

Ple a s e r e p e a t th a t Ma ’a m?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ap o lo g ie s . I a m ju s t tr y in g to g e t a s e ns e as th e

C h a ir is fo llo w in g u p o n , p r ec is e ly w h a t y ou a r e c e r ta in a b o u t a n d w ha t
y o u a r e n o t c e r ta in a b o u t, o k a y ?
Se w e r

Wo r ks , Pr e mie r Attr a c tio n

I u n d e rs ta n d y o u to b e c e r ta in th a t
was

n o t r e s p o ns ib le

fo r

g e ttin g

c o n tr ac to r s to d o th a t w o r k , is th a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

An d th e n w e lo o k e d a t th e b u d g e t th a t w a s

p r e p ar e d b y Q S C o n s u ltin g a n d a g a in yo u w e r e q u ite c le a r in y o u r
e v id e nc e . Pr e mie r Attr a c tio n d id n o t e n g age Q S C o n su lt Afr ic a to d o th a t
w o r k , c or r ec t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u .

Yo u mu s t g iv e th e a n s w e r, s o th e

r e c or d r e fle c ts it.
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o w w e mov e to a n o th e r se t o f th e d o c u me n ts

th a t V a n d A s a y s y o u p r ov id e d to th e m a s e v id e nc e o f a ll th e ma n y
c o n tr ac to r s , Pr e mie r w a s e n ga g in g to d o w o r k o n th e p r o je c t, r ig h t? Yo u
20

h a v e a lr e ad y g iv en e v id e nc e th a t th a t a c c o u n t b y V a n d A is fa ls e , is th a t
c o r re c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s . I t is – i t is fa ls e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

R ig h t. So n o w le t u s g o to th is o n e wh ic h is th e

Pr o je c t Wo r k s r e p or t.

W h a t is y o u r e v id e n c e in r e la tio n to th e Pr o je c t

Wo r ks r e p o r t? D id Pr e mie r s u b -c o n tra c t to p r o je c ts wo r ks , to p r e p a r e th is

Page 59 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
r e p o r t?
MR MYEN I:

N o , I d o n o t th in k w e w o u ld ha v e su b -c o n tr ac te d to p r o jec ts

w o r ks , b e c a us e th e e n tity is n o t c o min g to me . So , I d o n o t th in k s o . I
c o u ld s ay it is h ig h ly u n lik e ly le t me p u t it th a t w a y b u t it d o e s n o t me a n
th a t I w o u ld n o t h a v e h a nd e d th e d oc u me n t o v e r to V a n d A fr o m th e
c lie n t. Th a t is tw o d iffe r e n t th in g s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e y

are

in d e e d .

So ,

I

u n d e r s ta n d

y o ur

e v id e nc e to b e it mig h t h a v e b e e n th a t y o u h a n d e d o ve r th e s e
d o c u me n ts?
10

MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t is it y o u r e v id e n c e in d o in g s o it w a s n o t

b e c a us e y o u h a d s u b -c o n tr ac te d Pr o je c t Wo r ks to d o th is w o r k fo r th e
p r o je c t. Is th a t c o r r e c t Mr My e n i?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s - y e s

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u th a t d o e s c la r ify ma tte r s . L e t u s g o to

th e n e x t r e p o r t it is a t p a g e [ In te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

J a , I a m s o r r y. So if y o u d id h a n d o v er th is d o c u me n t

to V a n d A is th e p o s itio n th a t y o u w o u ld h a v e d o n e s o s imp ly b e c a us e
y o u w o u ld h av e b e en a s ke d b y th e d e v e lop er to h a n d it o v e r ?
20

MR MYEN I:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

An d n o t b e c a u s e y o u r C lo s e C o rp o r a tio n w as in v o lv e d

in g iv in g Pr o je c t Wo r ks a n y w or k to d o ?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u a n d le t u s g o to th e n e x t r e po r t th a t is

Page 60 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
o n p a g e 1 5 3 o f D D ( 27 ) . W h a t is th is d o c u me n t?
MR MYEN I:

It s a y s Wa te r a n d Se w e r Infr a s tr u c tu re , it is a s c o p in g

r e p o r t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Sa fa r g o C a p ita l In v e s tme n ts .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

An d w h o p r e p a r ed it?

Is th a t e n tity k n o w to y o u ?

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D id y o u b r in g th em in to th e p r o je c t to d o th is

w o r k?
10

MR MYEN I:

Br in g th e m in to th e p r o je c t to d o th e w o r k ? N o . I d o n o t .

N o , th is th e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n b r o ug h t in b y O p tic s b e c a us e th is a
s e p a ra te , a s I s a id w e w e r e n o t in v o lve d in s e w er.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

C o r r e c t.

So , it w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n O p tic s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n le t u s d e a l w ith th e la s t o n e w h ic h

r e la te s to e lec tr ic ity.

Yo u w ill fin d th a t a t p a g e 1 99 .

W h a t is th a t

d o c u me n t? Ap o lo g ies Mr My e n i.
MR MYEN I:

O k a y. Ye s - y e s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

Pa g e

199.

Can

you

a s s is t u s

w ith

what

d o c u me n t th a t is ?
MR MYEN I:

Sc o p e o f Se r v ic e s , o k ay. It is a b u lk e le c tr ic ity. So me th in g

a b o u t b u lk e le c tr ic ity. It is n o t q u ite c le a r.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d w h o h a s o n th e fa c e o f th is d o c u me n t

[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll It a p p e a r s to b e a le tte r fr o m a Mr R o b e r t

Page 61 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
Zie tz ma n a d d r es s ed to O c tic s ( Pty ) L imite d , a n d th e s u b je c t ma tte r is
Pr o p o s ed Sc o p e O f O u r Se r v ic e s For To w n sh ip D e v e lop me n ts Pr o jec ts , is
th a t r ig h t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s - y e s C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Ja.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:
10

D o y o u k n o w Mr Zie tz ma n ?

D o y o u k n o w th e e ntity G e o - Po w e r ?

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d a g a in , w a s G e o Po w e r a c o mp a n y th a t

Pr e mie r w as r es p o ns ib le fo r br in g in g in to th e H o u s in g D ev e lo p men t
Pr o je c t?
MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

H a v e y o u s ee n th is d o c u me n t b e fo r e ?

I c a n n o t r e c a ll n o w, it is p o s s ib le .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d a g a in I ta k e it y o u w ill g iv e th e s a me a n sw e r

it ma y h a v e b e e n th a t y o u h a v e p r o v id e d th is d o c u me n t to V a n d A, is th a t
c o r re c t?
MR MYEN I:
20

Ye s , th a t is c o r r e c t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t y o u w o u ld b e d o in g s o o n b eh a lf o f O c tic s , is

th a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , it is c o r r ec t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , a n d th en c a n I ju s t c la r ify, s o w e a r e

o n th e s a me p a ge a b o u t y ou r p re v io us te s timo n y.

Yo u r e v id e n ce w as

th e r e w as n o a g re e me n t d ir ec tly b e tw e en Pr e mie r a n d O c tics is th a t

Page 62 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
c o r re c t?
MR MYEN I:

N o , I s a id th e r e w as n o a gre e me n t b e tw e e n Pr e mier a n d

O c tic s r e la tin g to u s b e in g o r ma n a g in g th e d e v e lo p men t o r b e in g th e le a d
w h a te v er it w o u ld h a ve b e e n b u t I a m n o t s a y in g th er e is n o ag r e e men t
b e tw e e n

Pr e mie r

and

O c tics

b e c a us e

I

s a id

th e

D ir e c to r s

and

s h a r eh o ld er s ar e kn o w n to b e a nd w h o h a ve e n g a ge d in ma ny o r tr ie d to
d o ma n y b us in es s op p o r tu n itie s to g e th er, so th e r e c o u ld v er y we ll b e a n
a g r e e me n t s o mew h er e flo a tin g a r o u n d b u t in r e la tio n to th is p r o je c t n o .
C H A IR PER SO N:
10

So r r y, in r e g a r d to th is p r o je c t th e r e w a s n o a g r ee me n t

b e tw e e n th e tw o ?
MR MYEN I:

Be tw e e n u s a n d O c tic s a s th e le a d [in te r v e n es ].

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

As th e le a d to th is p r o je c t

Ye s , w ith b e in g th e le a d .

C H A IR PER SO N:

O r w o u ld th e r e h a v e bee n a n y o th e r a ny a g re e me n t

b e tw e e n y ou a n d th e m in r e g a r d to a n y r o le a t a ll in th e p r o je c t
MR MYEN I:

It is p o s s ib le C h a ir, b u t I c a n n o t r e c a ll a n d [in te r v e ne s ].

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Yo u c a n n o t r e c a ll, o k ay.

I d o n o t th in k th e r e w o u ld hav e b e e n a n e e d . Th e re w o u ld

n o t h a v e b e e n a n e e d [in te r v en e s ].
20

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

Be c a u s e o u r r o le s a nd s er v ic e s we r e sp e c ific a lly c o min g

V a n d A C o n s u ltin g , s o I d o n o t th in k s o .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Okay

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We r e

you

e v er

R e p r es e n ta tiv e ?

Page 63 of 156

a p p o in te d

as

O c tics

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYEN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d ju s t to b e c le a r y o u w e r e c on tr a c te d b y

V a n d A?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Is th a t c o r r e c t?

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

O k a y, I w o u ld lik e t o ta k e y o u to th e v e r s io n th a t

V a n d A h a s p r o v id e d to th e C o mmis s ion . Fo r th a t y o u n e e d to g o to , in
th e s a me b u n d le to D D ( 2 7) a n d it c o mme n c es a t p a g e 8 .
10

MR MYEN I:

O k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Pa g e 8 ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Eig h t o f Ex h ib it D D ( 2 7 ) C ha ir.

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C h a ir

ju s t

to

give

th e

b a c k g r ou n d

to

th is

d o c u me n t. Th e r e w as a s u mmo ns is su e d to V a n d A in r e la tio n , s e e k in g
d o c u me n ts re la te d to th is p a y me n t a n d th e r e s po n s e th a t y o u se e a t
p a g e 8 is th e r e s p o n s e fr o m V a n d A ‘s a t t o r n e ys . Pu r s u a n t to r e c e iv in g
th e r e s p o n se th e C o mmis s io n w a s in c o n ta c t w ith V a n d A’s a t to r n e y s a n d
r e q u es te d th a t th e fa c ts s e t o u t in th is le tte r b e d e p o s e d to in a n a ffid a v it
20

b y Mr N a r s a i a n d w e r e q u e s te d th a t th a t b e p r o v id e d b y a t th e la te s t
Fr id a y o f la s t w e e k .

We r e c e iv e d c o mmun ic a tio n o n Fr id a y to in d ic a te

th a t th a t w o u ld n o t b e p o s s ib le a s Mr N a r sa i w a s tr a v e llin g a n d o n
b u s in es s a n d th e u n d e r tak in g h a s b e e n tha t h e w ill p r o v id e it, I th in k i t
w a s by th e la te s t Th u r s da y th is w e e k . So th a t is w h e r e we a r e . Th a t is
w h y I a m n o t r e fe r r in g Mr My e n i to a n a ffid a v it.

Page 64 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t w e a r e in th e p r o c es s o f s e cu r in g o n e th a t

w ill a tte s t to th e fa c ts s e t o u t in th is le t te r.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o w Mr My e n i w h a t h a p p e n ed in r es p o ns e to th e

s u mmo n s is th a t th is le tte r w a s fu r n is h e d w ith V a n d A’s a c c o u n t o f th e
w a y in wh ic h th is p ay me n t c a me ab o u t, a nd th e n a ll o f th o s e d o c u men ts
th a t I h a v e ta k e n y o u to a r e w h a t V a n d A p r o v id ed to th e C o mmis s io n , a s
e v id e nc e o f th e r e p o r ts . It s a y s it r e c e iv e d fr o m Fe mie r.
10

MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

As th e b a s is fo r th e p a y me n t ma d e to Pr e mie r.

O k a y, s o I w o u ld lik e to ta k e y o u to w h a t V a n d A s a y s ab o u t its
u n d e rs ta n d in g o f th is a r r a n g e me n t a n d y o u w ill fin d th a t o v e r th e p a g e a t
p a g e 9 . So , a t p a g e 9 w h a t is r e co r d ed he r e , a n d I a m g o in g to r ea d it
in to th e r e c o r d a nd th e n I a m g o in g to a s k fo r y o u r c o mmen t a t v a r io u s
p o in ts . W h a t is s ta te d a t th e to p o f p a g in a te d p a g e 9 is :
“In o r d e r to g iv e c o n te x t to th e a b o v e - me n tio n e d d o cu me n ts w e
a r e in s tr uc te d to a d v is e d th e fo llo w in g :
a ) V a n d A c o n s u ltin g w a s a p p r o ac h e d b y Pre mie r Attr a c tio n
1 0 1 6 ( Pty ) L imite d ”

20

I th in k th a t is a n e r r o r b e ca u s e y o u a r e n o t (Pty 0 L imite d a r e y o u ?
MR MYEN I:

CC.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u a r e a C C . D u r in g th e e a r ly c o ur s e – d u r ing

th e c o u r s e o f e a r ly 2 0 1 5 w h e re in it a d v is e d a n d th e n th e r e is a s e r ie s o f
th in g s th a t V a n d A s a y s Pr e mie r s a id to it. Th e fir s t is th a t Pr e mie r w a s

Page 65 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
th e p r o je c t, w as th e D ev e lo p men t ma n a g e r a n d r e pr e se n ta tiv e o f O c tics
H o ld in gs in r e sp e c t o f a p r iva te ly o wn e d p r o je c t d es cr ib e d as Mz in o n i
Ex te n s io n e le ve n Be th a l Mp u ma la n g a , d o y ou s e e th a t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Now

your

p r ev iou s

e v id e nc e

as

I

have

it

Mr My e n i is th a t y ou w er e n e ith e r th e De v e lo p me n t Ma na g e r n o r th e
r e p r es e n ta tiv e o f O c tic s , is th a t c o r r ec t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s c o r r e c t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

So , th is s ta te me n t is fa ls e in th os e tw o r e sp e c ts ,

is th a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

V and A goes on and says,

“Th a t i t u n d e r s to o d fr o m Pr e mie r th a t in it ’s a fo r c e d
me n tio n e d c a pa c ity, Pr e mie r ha d a lr ea d y a tte n d e d to
th e

in itia l

phases

o f th e

p r o je c t in c lu d in g

e s ta b lis h me n t o f th e to w n s h ip .

th e

Th e w o r k th a t h a d

b e e n d o n e a n d d is bu r se me n ts in c ur r e d w a s tw o
millio n R a n d .”
Th a t I ta k e it fr o m y o u r p r e v io u s te s timo ny is a ls o fa ls e , is th a t c o r r e c t?
20

MR MYEN I:

Ye s , w e ll a n d th e r e p o r ts s h o ws th e r e is n o Pr e mie r

Attr a c tio n r e p o r t p r io r.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n th e y g o o n a n d

V a n d A r e c o r d s th a t “ Pr e mie r in d ic a te d to i t th a t th e
p r o je c t h a d r e a c h ed a s ta g e w h e r e it r e q u ir e d
V a n d A to ta k e o v e r th e ma n a g e me n t o f t h e p r o je c t

Page 66 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
a n d to p r o v ide p r o fe ss io n a l s e rv ic es in c lu d in g th a t o f
a r c h ite c tur e , q u a n tity su r ve y in g , en g in e er in g a n d
p r o je c t ma n a g e men t.”
Is th a t a ls o fa ls e ?
MR MYEN I:

J a , I me a n , it d o e s n o t e v e n ma k e s e n se .

If w e h a d th e

p r o je c t a n d w e h a d a lr e a dy d o n e a ll th e s e r e p o r ts , w h y w ou ld w e h a n d it
o v e r to s o me b od y e lse ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:
10

So , y o u r a n sw e r is it is fa ls e ?

Ye s . Fa ls e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d a t fo u r o n th a t p a g e ,

“( iv ) . Th a t th e c lie n t O c tic s w a s p r e p ar e d to a p p o in t
V a n d A c o n s u ltin g to p r o v id e th e a fo r e me n tio n e d
s e rv ic es .”
h o s e on e s w e h av e jus t r e fe r r ed to w ith Pre mie r c o n tin u ing to a c t a s th e
c lie n t’s r e p r es e n ta tiv e . Is th a t a ls o fa ls e ?
MR MYEN I:

W h ic h p a r t?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

We ll, y o u te ll me a n y p a r t o f it th a t is fa ls e .

We ll, O c tic s c le a r ly wa s pr e p a re d to a p p o in t V a n d A

b e c a us e th e y d id a n d to p r o v id e th e s e rv ic es a b o v e w h ic h , w ith o u t s e e in g
20

th e Sc o p e o f Se r v ic e , I a s s u me th a t is w h a t it in c lu d e d , b u t a s Pr e mie r w e
n e v e r ac te d a s th e r e p re s e n ta tiv e . [In te r v en e s ]
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Th e c lie n t’s r e p r e se n ta tiv e .

O f th e c lie n t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N :

Th a n k y o u . So [ In t e r v e ne s ]

An d . An d .

Page 67 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

At la s t. [In te r v e n es ]

I a m s o r r y.

An d y o u d id n o t te ll V a n d A th a t O c tic s

w a n te d y o u to c o n tin u e to a c t a s th e ir r e pr es e n ta tiv e ?
MR MYEN I:

I d e fin i te ly d id n o t te ll th e m th a t. Ma y b e th e o w n e r o f O c t, I

me a n , V a n d A a s s u me d .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Ja.

As I a m s u r e w e c a n as s u me if I a m g e ttin g d o c u me n ts a n d

p a s s ing th e m, y o u mig h t th in k I a m a r e p r e s e n ta tiv e , b u t, n o , th a t w a s
n e v e r th e c as e .
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

O k a y. I w o u ld th e n lik e to le a v e th is p a g e . We

w ill r e tu r n to it in a mo me n t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Su r e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Be c a u s e a mo n g s t th e d o c u me n ts th a t V a n d A

p r o v ide d to th e C o mmis s io n is a n a g r e e ment th a t w a s c o n c lud e d b e tw e en
its e lf a n d O c tic s , a n d I w o u ld lik e to ta k e u s th e r e if w e ma y. Yo u w ill
fin d it in th e s a me Ex h ib it D D ( 2 7 ) a n d y o u will fin d i t a t p a g e 2 1 3 .
MR MYEN I:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Fe e l fr e e to p a g e t h r o u g h th e a g r ee me n t if i t w ill

a s s is t in r e fr e sh in g yo u r me mo ry. My q u estio n is w h e th e r y o u ha v e s e e n
20

th is a g r e e me n t b e fo r e ?
MR MYEN I:

It is p o s s ib le , b u t I d o n o t th in k so b e ca u se th e r e w o u ld

h a v e b e en n o n e e d fo r me to .
C H A IR PER SO N:

D o y o u wa n t to p a g e thr o u g h a little b it a n d se e if

a n y th in g r e min ds y o u o r n o t, o r y o u a re q u ite c le a r ?
MR MYEN I:

I a m q u ite c le a r, C h a ir I d o n o t.

Page 68 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

O k a y.

I d o n o t th in k I w o u ld h a v e h a d a n y p a r t in th is a g r e e me n t.

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Se e , th is is th e a g r e e me n t th a t V a n d A p r o v id e s

to th e C o mmis s io n a s e v id e n ce o f th e b a s is fo r its tw o millio n R a n d
p a y me n t to Pr e mie r. O k a y ? Th e fir s t th in g th a t is n o te w o r th y a b o u t th e
a g r e e me n t a t p a g e 2 13 , b u t b e fo r e I g e t th e r e c o u ld y o u jus t te ll u s w h o
th e p a r tie s a r e to th is a g r e e me n t o n th e fa c e o f it Mr My e n i?
MR MYEN I:
10

O k a y.

Th e p a r tie s .

C lie n t , O c tic s H o ld in gs C o n su lta n t,

V a n d A C o n s u ltin g .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d w h a t s e r v ic e s w a s V a n d A C o ns u ltin g g o in g

to p r o v id e in a c co r d an c e w ith th is a g r ee me nt?
MR MYEN I:

Pr o fe s s io n a l s er v ice s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n th e r e is a , a s o r t o f s u mma r y in

b r a ck e ts th e r e . C a n y o u h e lp us d e c iph e r th a t?
MR MYEN I:

It is n o t q u ite c le a r.

C H A IR PER SO N:

So , w h a t s e e ms to b e w r itte n is PM, Ar c h ite c t, Q S a n d

th e n C # En g ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

C iv il En g in e e r in g ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

In d e e d .

I th in k s o .

Ja.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n S/En g , ma y b e Se w e r En g in e e r in g .

E/En g , Ele c tr ic a l En g in e e r in g , M/En g , Me c h a n ica l En g in e e r in g , W /En g ,
ma y b e Was te En g in e e r in g . C h a ir, w e a re sp e c u la tin g .

Page 69 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m Mr My e n i, y o u d o n o t h a v e

k n o w led g e o f th is a g r e e me n t?
MR MYEN I:

N o , I d o n o t. I d o n o t . I d o n o t I d o n o t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Te ll .

C o u ld y o u ju s t a s s is t u s w ith w ha t is

r e c or d e d o n th e fr o n t p a g e a s th e a g r e e me nt d a te ?
MR MYEN I:

2 4 /0 7 /2 0 1 5 .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a t w a s a fte r V a n d A h a d p a id y o u th e tw o

millio n , w a s it n o t?
10

MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

D o e s th a t s tr ik e y ou a s o d d ?

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o ? W h y w o u ld it n o t b e o d d th a t th e a g r e e me n t

in te r ms o f w h ic h V a n d A w a s a p p o in te d to th is p r o je c t o n ly o c c u rr e d
a fte r it h a d ma d e p a y me n t to y o u ?
MR MYEN I:

I c a n n o t a n s w e r fo r V a n d A a n d O c tic s s o I d o n o t k n o w.

Ma y b e th is w a s a s e c o n d a g r e e me n t th a t th e y h a d s ig n e d . W h o k n o w s ? I
d o n o t k n o w. So , w e c a n n o t r e ly o n it b e in g th e o n ly o n e .
C H A IR PER SO N:
20

Ye s . N o , I th in k Mis s H o fme y r e x pe c te d y o u to s ay y o u

fin d it o d d th a t th e y c o me u p w ith a n a g re eme n t th a t w a s s ig n e d a fte r y o u
had

been

p a id

b ec a us e

Mis s H o fme y r c a nv as s ed

you

wo u ld

ha v e

ex p ec te d ,

and

I

th in k

th a t w ith y o u e a r lie r o n th a t th e ir a g r e e me n t,

V a n d A’s a g r e e me n t o n y o ur v e rs io n w ith th e d e v e lo p er w o u ld ha v e
p r e c ed e d y ou r b e in g br o u g h t in .

So , i f n o w th e y c o me u p w ith a n

a g r e e me n t th a t h a p p e n e d a fte r th e p a y men t, o n e w o u ld h a v e e x pe c te d

Page 70 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
y o u r a ns we r to b e , “y e s , I fin d th is o d d .” Bu t y o u s a id n o , y o u d o no t fin d
it o d d . [In te r v e n e s ]
MR MYEN I:

We ll, C h a ir if y o u , fo llo w th e l o g ic a s p e r th e d o c u men ts th a t

a r e h e r e , ye s , I fin d it o d d . Bu t I d o n o t fin d it o d d b e c a u se o f my
u n d e rs ta n d in g o f th e p r o je c t. [In te r v e n e s ]
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

My a n s w e r is ye s . [In te r v e n e s ]

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:
10

So , is it a q u e s tio n o f y o u r a n s w er is y es a n d n o ?

At th e fa c e o f it, it is o d d .

Ye s , it is n o t o d d .

At th e f a c e o f it, i t is o d d , b u t my

u n d e rs ta n d in g o f th e p r o je c t a n d w h e r e th e p r o je c t c a me fr o m w ith th e
little li mite d in fo r ma tio n th a t I h a v e , fo r i n s ta n c e , my u n de r s ta nd in g is
th a t O c tic s ac tu a lly h a d a d iffe r e n t c o ns u ltin g c o mp an y pr io r to V a n d A
e v e n c o min g in . A lo t o f r e p o r ts a s y o u c a n s e e , th e y a r e 2 0 1 4 e t c e te r a .
So , a lo t o f w o r k w o u ld ha v e b ee n d o n e pr io r s o to r e ly on a n a g r ee me n t
s ta r te d th e 2 4 th , th is a g r e e me n t c o u ld h a ve b e e n ma k in g a me n d me n ts to
th e o r ig in a l a g r e e men t. I d o n o t k n o w, b u t w h a t I d o k n o w is th a t a s o f
2 0 1 4 th e r e w a s a lr e ad y w or k b e in g d o n e he r e , s o I w o u ld h a v e a s s u me d
th a t th e r e w o u ld h a v e be e n a n a gr e e me n t, w h e th e r wr itte n o r v e r ba l, b u t
a t th e v e r y le a s t th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a Sc o p e o f Se r v ic e s a n d

20

e v e ry b o dy w ou ld k n ow ex a c tly w h a t th e y wo u ld ma k e o u t o f it. So , I d o
n o t w a n t to r e ly o n a d o c u me n t th a t I d o n o t h a v e c o n te x t, I c a n n o t s a y.
[In te r v e n e s ]
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ex c e p t

th a t

V and A

p u ts

th is

up

as

th e

a g r e e me n t th a t b r o u g h t it in to th e p r o je c t.
MR MYEN I:

Th a t is w h a t th e y a r e s a y in g . Th e y a ls o s a y I w a s a le a d .

Page 71 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
[In te r v e n e s ]
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d

a

r e p r e s e n ta tiv e

and

you

w er e

n o t.

[in te r v e n e s ].
MR MYEN I:
th a t.

Bu t th e y c a n n o t. Bu t th e y c a n n o t p r o v id e a n a g r e e men t to

So a t le a s t if th e y w e r e p r ov id in g ag r e e me n ts , I w o u ld s a y fin e ,

th e y a r e c o rr ec t. Bu t I a m a c tu a lly, w a s eve n s ay in g to yo u th a t s o me o f
th e s e r e p or ts th a t y o u h av e me n tio n e d , I w a s q u ite c le ar.

I was not

in v o lv ed . So , y o u k n o w. Pe o p le c a n , p e o p le w ill s a y w h a t th e y h a v e to
s a y.
10

C H A IR PER SO N:
it o d d .

I a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta nd w h y y o u s a y y o u d o n o t fin d

I w o u ld u n d e r s ta n d , I u n d e r s ta nd w h e n y ou s a y y o u fin d it o d d

th a t th e y p u t u p a n a g r e e me n t th a t th e y s a y b r o u g h t th e m in to th e p r o je c t.
Th a t a g r e e me n t h a v in g b e e n s ig n ed a fte r p a y me n t h a d b e e n ma d e to y o u .
W h e n y o u fin d th a t o d d , I u n d e r s ta n d . I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w hy y o u d o
n o t fin d it o d d b e c a u s e y o u s ay y o u fin d it b o th o d d a n d n o t o d d .
MR MYEN I:

So , a ll I a m s a y in g , C h a ir is th a t th is ma y n o t b e th e o n ly

a g r e e me n t th a t w a s s ig ne d . U n fo r tu n a te ly, I ju s t d o n o t h a v e th e r e c o r d s
s o in th a t s e n se , b e c au s e , y es , it is o d d th a t I w o u ld b e p a id p r ior to a n
a g r e e me n t be in g s ig n e d , b u t I a m s ay in g th a t n e v er h a p pe n e d . Th a t is
20

n o t h o w I c o n d u c t my s e lf s o [In te r v e n e s ]
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , b u t i f th is is , if th e y a r e c o rr e c t [In te r v e n e s ]

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a t th is is th e a g r e e me n t th a t b r o u g h t th e m in to th e

p r o je c t [In te r v e n es ]
MR MYEN I:

An d th e n it w ill b e o d d .

Page 72 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Th e n it w o u ld b e o d d .

O k a y.

It w o u ld b e v e r y o dd .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u r e v id e n ce a mo me n t a g o w a s y o u d o n o t

r e c e iv e p a y men ts p r io r to a g r e e men ts b e in g in p la c e . Yo u d o n o t c o n d u c t
y o u r b us in es s th a t w a y. Is th a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

MR MYEN I:

So , w h e r e w as th e a g r e e me n t? [In te r v e n es ]

So r r y, I d o n o t.

So r r y y o u s a id I d o n o t r e c e iv e p ay me n ts

p r io r to ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

N o . I n e v e r s a id , “a g r e e me n ts b e in g in p la c e .”

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Th e a g r e e me n ts b ein g in p la c e .

Ap o lo g ie s . W h a t w a s y o ur e v id e nc e ?

Bu t th e r e h a d to b e a r e a s on fo r a p a y me n t, s o I d o n o t ju s t

r e c e iv e p a y me n t fo r n o r e a s o n .

So , th e r e a s on c o u ld h a v e b e en , fo r

in s ta n c e , we h a ve a v er b a l ag r e e men t a nd a n a r ra n g e men t, w e h a v e a
s c o pe o f s e r v ice th a t is s e n t to u s w h ic h is n o t n e c e ss a r ily a n a gr e e me n t.
We e x e c u te th e n w e g e t p a id .
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Is th a t th e b a s is fo r y o u r r e c e iv in g th e tw o

millio n R a n d p a y me n t fr o m V a n d A?
MR MYEN I:

W h a t d o y o u me a n ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e e v id e n c e yo u h a v e ju s t g ive n .

A verbal

a g r e e me n t in te r ms o f w h ic h y ou g o t a Sc o p e o f Se r v ic e s a t s o me p o in t.
Yo u d e liv e r e d w or k o n it a n d y o u g o t p a id tw o millio n R a n d b y V a n d A.

Page 73 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYEN I:

So , I a m n o t s a y in g it is a v e r b a l a g r ee me n t b e c au s e I

c a n n o t r e ca ll, b u t I a m s a y in g th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n a g r e e men t o f
s o r ts w he th e r v er b a l o r w r itte n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

So , it c o u ld … [ In te r v e n es ]

N u mb e r tw o , th e r e w o u ld h a ve b e e n a Sc o p e o f Se r v ic e s ,

a n d th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n a gr e e me n t p r io r o f th e a mo un t o f mo n e y
th a t w ill b e p a id fo r th o s e w o r ks .

So , y o u k n o w, a t th a t p o in t th e n w e

w o u ld h a ve .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

O k a y, le t u s u np a ck th a t a litt le b it . I u n d e r s to o d

y o u r pr e v io u s ev id e nc e to b e th e re w as no w r itte n a g r ee me n t b e tw e e n
y o u rs e lve s a n d V a n d A?
MR MYEN I:

I s a id I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e th e r th e r e is a w r itte n a g r e e me n t

o r n o t. It is p o s s ib le th a t it c o u ld h a ve b ee n , o r it c o u ld n o t h a v e b e en .
Po s s ib le th a t it w a s ve r b a l, p os s ib le th a t it w a s wr itte n . I c a n n o t s a y fo r
s u r e r igh t n o w.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t th e r e is a le g a lly b in d in g a g re e me n t in te r ms

o f w h ic h y o u w er e to b e p a id tw o millio n R a n d fo r th e w o r k th a t y o u d id o n
d e s ig n fo r th e s tr u c tu re s . Is th a t c o r r e c t, Mr My e n i?
MR MYEN I:
20

Ye s . L e g a lly b in d in g .

C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll, e x a c tly, y o u mig h t n o t k n o w a b o u t le g a lly b in d in g ,

b u t a s fa r a s y o u a r e co n c er n e d th e re w a s an a g r e e me n t.
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Th a t is w h y y o u d id th e w o r k .

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u w o u ld n o t d o th e w o r k if th e r e w a s n o a g r e e me n t.

Page 74 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

10

An d a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o nc e r n ed , y o u d id th e w o r k .

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

O r it w a s v e r ba l.

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

W h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w is w h e th e r it w a s w r itte n .

An d y o u g o t p a id .

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, a n d to g o b a c k to t h e s c o p e o f th e w o r k , I d o n o t

th in k y o u c a n b e in do u b t th a t th e r e w as sc o p e o f w or k fo r y o u b ec a us e
w h a t w o u ld y o u b e d o in g .
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , C h a ir. Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

If y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e re y o u r limits a r e .

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

So , y o u .

So , y o u a r e ab le to s a y th er e w o u ld h av e

b e e n a n a g r ee me n t o n th e s c o p e o f w o rk .
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
20

MR MYEN I:

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR MYEN I:

Th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e en a n a g r e e me n t o n th e p a y me n t.

Th e a mo u n t.

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

An d y o u a r e s a y in g th a t b y th e time y o u g o t p a id y o u

w o u ld h av e d o ne th e w o rk a n d y o u wo u ld h a v e fin is h ed th e w o rk . Am I
r ig h t?

Page 75 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR MYEN I:

Ye s , C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR MYEN I:

An d y o u h a v e n o r ec o r ds o f a n y o f th a t, c o r r ec t?

D o y o u th in k O c tic s mig h t h a v e r e c o r ds ?

I a m h o p in g s o me o n e do e s so th a t th e y c a n s o r t o f c la r ify

th is , b u t I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , th a t w o u ld b e h e lp fu l.

L e t u s g o to

p a g e 2 1 6 . We a r e s till in th e a g r e e me n t th e r e .
10

MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I w o u ld lik e to lo o k a t th a t p a g e a t C la u se 1 .1 .4 .

C o u ld y o u re a d in to th e r e c o rd w h a t is d e fin e d th e r e , p le a s e ?
MR MYEN I:
“C lie n t’s

r e p r es e n ta tiv e

me a ns

a

r e p re s e n ta tiv e

d e s ig n a te d b y th e c lie n t a n d s o n a me d in th e
s c h ed u le to ac t w ith c o mp le te au th o r ity o n h is b e h a lf
a n d w h o s ha ll b e a v a ila b le a t a ll r e a s o na b le time s .”
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u .

I w o u ld th e n lik e to g o to th e

s c h ed u le th a t is r e fe r r e d to th e r e a n d le t u s s e e w h o is in d ic a te d a s th e
20

c lie n t r e p r es e n ta tiv e in th is a g r e e men t. Yo u w ill fin d th a t a t p a g e 2 2 7 .
MR MYEN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h o is in d ic a te d a t th e to p o f th e p a g e a s th e

c lie n t r e p r es e n ta tiv e u n de r th is a g r e e men t?
MR MYEN I:

It s a y s ,

“N a me : Pr e mie r At tr a c tio n .”

Page 76 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t y o u d e n y th a t y o u w e re th e r e p r es e n ta tiv e

u n d e r th is a g re e me n t, c o r r ec t?
M R M Y E N I:

M a y b e t h e r e w a s a n e r r o r m a ’ a m b e c a u s e t h e a d d r e s s is

n o t o u r a d d r e s s . T h a t c a n b e v e r i f ie d a t C I P C i t h a s n e v e r b e e n . T h e
n u m b e r - c e ll p h o n e n u m b e r, i t is n o t my n u m b e r, i t h a s n e v e r b e e n .
T h e e m a i l m o e k e ts i m o k o t o n g @ y a h o o . c o . u k th a t is o b v i o u s l y n o t m e .
S o , I d o n o t k n o w w h o w o u ld h a v e d o n e t h is a n d p u t t h i s t o g e t h e r b u t
w e c a n n o t j u s t r e ly o n Pr e m i e r A t t r a c t i o n w h e n e v e r y t h i n g e l s e i s n o t
correct.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So, in other words you are saying that you know- you
c a n s e e th a t o n t h i s p a g e y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t i o n i s r e c o r d e d a s h a v i n g
b e e n th e c li e n t’s r e p r e s e n t a t iv e . B u t y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t t h a t w a s n o t
d o n e w i th y o u r p e r m is s io n o r c o n s e n t .
M R M Y E N I : N o C h a ir, I a m s a y i n g I a m n o t s u r e w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o
P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n w a s a s h e l f c o m p a n y j u s t m a y b e t o g iv e y o u
b a c k g r o u n d a s w e l l . S o , th e r e a s o n w h y m i n e i s 1 0 1 6 i s b e c a u s e t h e r e
is a P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n 1 2 3 - a ll t h e w a y, r i g h t.

S o , th is j u s t s a y s

P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n , i t d o e s n o t s a y 1 0 1 6 w h ic h y o u h a v e t o b e s p e c if ic
t o b e ta lk in g a b o u t m y e n ti t y, n u m b e r o n e .
20

Number two, I am then

s a y in g t h e a d d r e s s , th e e m a i l , th e c e ll p h o n e n u m b e r, a ll o f th a t
in f o r m a ti o n

has

never

been

my

in f o r ma t io n

or

my

c o m p a n y ’s

in f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : S o , w e m i g h t b e c o n f u s in g Pr e m ie r A t tr a c ti o n w i t h P r e m ie r
A t tr a c t io n 1 0 1 6 .

T h a t c a n b e v e r i fi e d w i t h C I P C , t h e r e a r e m a n y o f

Page 77 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t h e m . S o , w i t h o u t t h e 1 0 1 6 I th i n k it b e c o m e s d i ffi c u l t to a t tr ib u t e i t t o
m y c o m p a n y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , is t h i s a f a b r i c a t e d p a g e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t ,
d o y o u th i n k ?
M R M Y E N I: I c a n n o t s a y w h e t h e r i t is f a b r ic a te d m a ’ a m . I h a v e n e v e r I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e

under

But you played no role as

the

agreement

between

O c tic s

th e c l ie n t
and

VNA

C o n s u lt i n g . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
10

MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h e a n s w e r is y e s i f y o u a g r e e w it h m e .
MR MYENI: Sorry if?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I f y o u a g r e e w i th m e y o u r a n s w e r h a v e t o b e

y e s f o r th e r e c o r d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u a g r e e w i th h e r.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , I a g r e e w i t h y o u y e s . I a g r e e w i t h y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.

L e t u s g o o v e r to w h e r e e l s e y o u a r e

r e fe r r e d t o i n t h i s a g r e e m e n t . Yo u w i ll fi n d th a t a t p a g e 2 2 9 .
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p a g e 2 2 9 t h e r e is a c l a u s e th e r e A 5 a b o u t a
t h ir d o f t h e w a y d o w n h e a d e d d o c u m e n ts . D o y o u s e e t h a t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
agreement.

A n d i t l is ts t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t c o m p r is e t h e

It is t h e A g r e e m e n t , t h e r e i s A n n e x u r e A T h e s c h e d u le ,

t h e r e is A n n e x u r e B S c o p e o f S e r v i c e s a n d t h e n t h e r e is A n n e x u r e C

Page 78 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
a n d w h a t h a s b e e n w r i t te n t h e r e i n h a n d is a s p e r t h e b r ie f a n d
d o c u m e n t s u b m it t e d b y Th a le n t e M y e n i . D o y o u s e e t h a t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e n u n d e r t h a t it s a y s ; s ig n e d o r i g i n a l

d o c u m e n ts h e l d b y a n d t h e n w h a t h a s b e e n w r i t t e n i n th e r e V N A
C o n s u lt i n g - a s h a n d e d o v e r b y T M y e n i .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u h a v e a n y i n v o lv e m e n t i n th e s e

r e c o r d a ls in t h is a g r e e m e n t ?
10

MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I h a v e y o u r p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e t o b e , it i s
f a ls e t h a t y o u h a n d e d o v e r t h e s e d o c u m e n ts to V N A C o n s u lt i n g i n s o
f a r a s t h a t w a s t h e b a s i s f o r th e p a y m e n t y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m V N A .

Is

that correct?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s . S o , a r e y o u s u g g e s t i n g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o I h a v e to u n p a c k it ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k le t m e c l a r i fy t h a t .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I t h i n k w h a t s h e s a i d M s H o f m e y r is h e m a y h a v e

h a n d e d o v e r to V N A v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n b e h a lf o f th e d e v e lo p e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O c ti c s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.

Page 79 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t n o t- s o r r y i t w a s a c o m p o s i t e q u e s t i o n s o I
d o a p o l o g is e .

I understand your evidence Mr Myeni and you must

correct me if I am wrong, to be at some point you may have handed
o v e r d o c u m e n ts t o V N A .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t n o t a s t h e b a s is u p o n w h ic h y o u w e r e t o b e
p a i d t h e 2 m il li o n r a n d .
MR MYENI: No.
M R M Y E N I : Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
10

MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o , w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n p u tt i n g th e s e

r e c o r d a ls i n t o t h i s a g r e e m e n t w i th o u t y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d b a s e d o n
f a ls e fa c ts ?
M R M Y E N I : I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r w h e n y o u s a y f a l s e f a c ts b u t I a m
not sure we would have also done the agreement. I would assume that
t h e p a r ti e s li s t e d w o u ld h a v e d o n e t h e a g r e e m e n t .

But I do not see

f a ls e fa c ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll w e h a v e a lr e a d y e s t a b l is h e d o n e w h ic h is
t h a t y o u w e r e n o t th e c li e n t ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e a n d t h a t is . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
20

M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R e fl e c t e d a t p a g e 2 2 7 , c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I: A s I h a v e p o i n te d o u t t h a t is P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n , i t d o e s n o t
r e fe r to 1 0 1 6 s o l e g a ll y in f a c t t h a t d o e s n o t e v e n t a lk t o m y e n ti ty. I t
w a s a d i ff e r e n t e n t i ty a l l t o g e t h e r i f i t j u s t s a y s P r e m ie r A t tr a c t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w o u ld y o u a g r e e t h a t i f y o u h a v e a c l o s e

Page 80 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
c o r p o r a t io n w h o s e n a m e i n c l u d e s Pr e m i e r A t tr a c t io n .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n i f th a t is n o t o ff ic i a l ly t h e c o m p l e t e n a m e .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

you

are

th e

sole

member

of

th a t c lo s e

c o r p o r a t io n .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t r e f e r e n c e t o P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n a n d th e

d o c u m e n t s a y s t h e c li e n t ’s r e p r e s e n t a t iv e i s P r e m i e r A t t r a c t i o n a n d
10

la t e r i n th e s a m e d o c u m e n t t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e - l e t m e t r y - th e r e i s a
r e fe r e n c e - w h a t d o e s it s a y h e r e ?

Th e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e to T h a le n t e

Myeni.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e m a y b e fo r g iv e n to t h i n k t h a t t h e P r e m ie r

A t tr a c t io n th e y a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t is y o u r o n e .
M R M Y E N I : I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e ? O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d s o r r y, y o u p a u s e d o n m y d e s c r i p ti o n o f

s o m e o f th e f a c t s r e c o r d e d i n t h is a g r e e m e n t a s b e in g fa ls e . I w o u ld
20

lik e t o d r a w y o u r a t te n ti o n a t 2 2 9 to th e r e c o r d a l a g a i n s t A n n e x u r e C
ju s t b e fo r e t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e .

I t s a y s t h e r e ; A s p e r b r ie f a n d

d o c u m e n ts s u b m i t te d b y T h a l e n t e My e n i . R i g h t .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m in t e r e s t e d in th e r e is “ b r ie f ” b e c a u s e
t h e r e fe r e n c e t o b r i e f ti e s i n w i th t h e V N A a c c o u n t o f h o w i t c a m e i n t o

Page 81 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t h is a r r a n g e m e n t , t h e a c c o u n t t h a t y o u s a y i s f a ls e . A n d l e t m e e x p l a i n
w h y t h a t is .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
you,

P r e m ie r A t t r a c t i o n

manager role.

V N A s v e r s i o n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n is th a t
were

o r i g i n a ll y

playing

the

development

Yo u w a n t e d o u t b u t b y t h a t s t a g e y o u h a d i n c u r r e d

c e r t a i n e x p e n s e s . Yo u h a d c o n tr a c te d a c e r t a i n s u b - c o n tr a c t o r a n d s o
y o u n e e d e d t o b e p a id o u t e ffe c t iv e l y b y V N A w h e n t h e y c a m e in t o y o u
p o s i ti o n . S o , i t is i n t h a t c o n t e x t th a t t h e b r i e f is t h e b r i e f i n g fr o m y o u ,
10

p r e v i o u s p r o je c t m a n a g e r to V N A n e w p r o je c t m a n a g e r.

But I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e t h a t t h a t d i d n o t t a k e p la c e .

Is t h a t

correct?
MR MYENI:

Ja I think maybe you are referring to brief maybe in the

le g a l s e n s e o f w h e n y o u c li e n t b r i e f s b u t t h is m a y b e c o u l d h a v e j u s t
b e e n a d o c u m e n t t o s a y .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o b u t i t s a y s ; a n d d o c u m e n ts .

S o , i t is

something other than the documents.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , s o I a m s a y in g i t c o u ld h a v e - s o t h e d o c u m e n ts y o u
r e fe r t o w a s a s e w e r r e p o r t e tc e t e r a , e tc e t e r a .
20

CHAIRPERSON: What is your understanding of brief in this context?
M R M Y E N I : J a t h a t i s w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o e x p l a i n C h a ir. I a m s a y in g a
b r i e f c o u l d h a v e j u s t b e e n a t w o - p a g e r fr o m t h e d e v e lo p e r t o s a y ; t h i s
is w h a t w e w a n t to b e d o n e e tc e t e r a , e t c e te r a .

Now me passing that

d o c u m e n t o n d o e s n o t m e a n I a u t h o r e d th a t d o c u m e n t .
( in t e r v e n e s )

Page 82 of 156

S o I . ..

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f b r i e f
in t h is c o n te x t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t i t r e fe r s t o th e m a n d a t e b e i n g g iv e n b y th e

c li e n t f o r th e w o r k to b e d o n e b y V N A .
M R M Y E N I : I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t C h a ir. M a n d a te . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t t h a t w a y ?
M R M Y E N I : C a n y o u p le a s e r e p e a t i t p l e a s e C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
10

M R M Y E N I : I d o n o t th i n k I . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W h a t- r e m e m b e r I a s k e d y o u w h a t y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e m e a n i n g o f b r i e f i n th is c o n t e x t .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f i t a n d I w a n t to c h e c k w i t h
y o u i f y o u h a v e t h e s a m e u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is th a t i t r e f e r s t o th e m a n d a t e t h a t V N A w a s b e i n g

g iv e n b y t h e c li e n t t h a t th is b r i e f c a m e v ia y o u t h a t V N A g o t th e b r i e f o r
t h e d o c u m e n t o r th a t c o n t a i n e d t h e m a n d a t e o r t h e y w e r e t o l d - m a y b e it
20

was verbal the brief ... (intervenes)
MR MYENI: Ja so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : By y o u w h a t t h e y w e r e r e q u ir e d t o d o .
M R M Y E N I : J a s o C h a ir I d o n o t h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g b e c a u s e I d o
not have context.
CHAIRPERSON: So, you do not ... (intervenes)

Page 83 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R M Y E N I : I d o n o t k n o w t h i s d o c u m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M Y E N I : I t is d i ff ic u l t to s a y w h a t h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : I c a n n o t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d y o u w il l s e e t h e o t h e r

p l a c e w h e r e t h e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e m a d e to P r e mi e r A t t r a c t i o n is a t t h e
b o t t o m o f th a t p a g e 2 2 9 w h e r e t h e p r o f e s s io n a l f e e s th a t a r e b e i n g
10

a g r e e d b e t w e e n V N A a n d O c t ic s a r e s e t o u t .

Yo u w i ll s e e t h e r e ,

p r o f e s s i o n a l f e e s f o r t h i s p r o j e c t s h a ll b e 2 0 . 3 1 % i n c l u s i v e o f 2 5 %
d is c o u n t o n ta r i ff a n d th e a m o u n t o f 2 m il li o n p a i d to P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n .
Do you see that?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , I s e e i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e p r i o r t o t o d a y th a t
t h is i s h o w th e p a y m e n t o f y o u r 2 m il li o n r a n d w a s r e c o r d e d b e t w e e n
O c t ic s a n d V N A ?
MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e a d t h i s i n t h e s a m e w a y a s I d o w h ic h
20

is t o s u g g e s t th a t V N A is g o i n g t o h a v e a c la i m a g a i n s t O c ti c s f o r t h e 2
m il li o n r a n d th a t i t p a id t o y o u ?
MR MYENI: A claim?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M m .
M R M Y E N I:

I w o u ld a s s u m e s o y e s b e c a u s e w e w e r e a ll p r o v i d i n g

s e r v ic e s t o O c ti c s s o O c ti c s w o u l d h a v e h a d t o p a y e v e r y b o d y i n v o lv e d .

Page 84 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M m .
M R M Y E N I : In c l u d i n g P r e m ie r A t tr a c t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e l l i t d i d n o t p a y Pr e m i e r A t t r a c ti o n .

The

a r r a n g e m e n t w a s V N A w o u l d p a y i t a n d th e n V N A w o u l d b e r e i m b u r s e d
b y O c t ic s . Is th a t a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h is r e c o r d a l?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t e ll m e . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

L o o k i n g a t t h e r e f e r e n c e to P r e m i e r

A t tr a c t io n a t t h e b o t to m o f t h a t p a g e n a m e ly 2 2 9 , t h e o n e w e w e r e
10

lo o k in g a t ju s t n o w.

L o o k i n g a t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e i s r e fe r e n c e t o

P r e m i e r A t t r a c ti o n o n th a t p a g e s a m e r e f e r e n c e n a m e ly Pr e m i e r
A t tr a c t io n o n p a g e 2 2 7 . I t s e e m s to m e t h a t o n e c a n n o w a c c e p t t h a t
w h e n w h o e v e r w r o t e P r e m i e r A t tr a c t io n a n d I t h i n k t h e h a n d w r i ti n g i s
t h e s a m e a t p a g e 2 2 7 a s c li e n t’s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e , m u s t h a v e b e e n
m e a n i n g y o u r P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n .
M R M Y E N I : I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d a c c e p t t h a t ?
M R M Y E N I : A g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M y e n i , I w o u l d lik e t o g o b a c k to p a g e 9 o f
Exhibit DD27 because I said I would return there. That is where VNA
s e ts o u t it s a c c o u n t o f t h e s e f a c ts fo r t h e C o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I p i c k i t u p t h e r e M r M y e n i a t p a r a g r a p h 2
B b e c a u s e i t is h e r e t h a t V N A a f te r s e t ti n g o u t t h e b a c k g r o u n d e x p l a i n s

Page 85 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r.

D i d y o u d e l ib e r a te ly l e a v e

our V?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d - w e ll y o u d id . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r m y p u r p o s e s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t r e f e r t o i t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d n o t r e fe r t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t t o k n o w t h a t i t is n o t o v e r s i g h t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s n o t o v e r s i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It w a s n o t p e r ti n e n t a t th e t i m e b u t I a m h a p p y
t o i n c l u d e i t f o r c o m p le t e n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y b e w e s h o u l d j u s t r e a d i t i n t o t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a m a y b e t o c o m p l e t e n e s s ja .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e s e g o t t o I V M r M y e n i b e fo r e w e

m o v e d to t h e a g r e e m e n t .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t w h a t V N A a ls o r e c o r d s a t V o n p a g e 9 o f

E x h i b i t D D 2 7 is a m o n g s t t h e t h i n g s th a t i t a l le g e s Pr e m i e r t o ld it is
that;
I t w a s e x p e c t e d o f V N A t o p r o v i d e t h e a fo r e s a i d s e r v ic e s a n d t h a t V N A
w o u ld s ta r t r e c e iv i n g p a y m e n t f o r t h e s a i d s e r v ic e s o n c e f u n d in g f o r t h e
d e v e l o p m e n t h a d b e e n s e c u r e d a s i s t h e n o r m in p r o j e c ts o f t h is n a t u r e .

Page 86 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A n d t h e n a t B is w h e r e V N A r e c o r d s . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe for the sake of completeness again. I take it
y o u d e n y th a t y o u t o l d V N A w h a t is r e fl e c t e d in V ? T h e r e t h e y s a y y o u
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
MR MYENI: Oh yes, no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y o u d e n y t h a t ja .
M R M Y E N I : I w o u l d n o t h a v e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f w e g o t o 2 B , th a t is w e r e
10

V N A e x p l a in s t h e b a s is fo r i t p a y in g P r e m i e r 2 m i ll io n r a n d . It s a y s ;
V N A a c c e p te d t h e a f o r e m e n t i o n e d a p p o i n t m e n t o n a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g
t h a t it V N A w o u l d p a y P r e m i e r t h e a f o r e m e n t io n e d 2 m i ll io n r a n d f o r a l l
t h e r e p o r ts , d o c u m e n t a t i o n a n d w o r k c o m p le t e d th a t h a t b e e n f u r n i s h e d
t o P r e m ie r b y t h e v a r i o u s c o n s u l ta n ts th a t it h a d a p p o i n t e d .
Do you see that?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , I s e e i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u r e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s i o n is t h a t

y o u d id n o t a p p o in t t h o s e c o n s u l t a n t s , c o r r e c t ?
MR MYENI: No.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d i d n o t p r o c u r e t h e r e n d e r i n g o f t h o s e
r e p o r t s , c o r r e c t?
MR MYENI: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o V N A p a id y o u 2 m il li o n r a n d f o r w o r k o n

y o u r v e r s io n th a t y o u d id n o t d o , c o r r e c t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s p u t i t t h i s w a y. To t h e e x te n d t h a t V N A s a y s i t

Page 87 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
p a i d y o u t h e 2 m il li o n r a n d b e c a u s e y o u h a d p r o v i d e d c e r t a i n r e p o r ts
a n d d o c u m e n t a ti o n , t h a t is n o t tr u e a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir, b u t f o r w o r k c o m p l e te d y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r w o r k c o m p l e t e d , t h a t y o u s a y t h a t w a s tr u e .
M R M Y E N I : A n d a ls o C h a ir if I m a y ju s t p o i n t o u t I t h i n k s o m e t h i n g th a t
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR MYENI:

Is q u i te o b v i o u s .

I t s a y s t h a t V N A C o n s u l ti n g t h e n

commenced work on the project during or about March 2015.

So ...

( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MYENI:

B u t t h e y h a v e g iv e n u s a c o n tr a c t fo r J u ly o f t h a t y e a r.

T h e y a r e s a y in g t h e y s t a r t e d th e w o r k a n d t h a t is w h y I w a s s a y in g i t
w a s n o t o d d t h a t a n a g r e e m e n t c o u ld b e s h o w in g a n o th e r d a t e w h e r e a s
o u r p a y m e n t- b e c a u s e w e d i d s t a r t w o r k p r i o r t o u s g e t ti n g p a id a n d I
t h i n k th a t l in e th e r e j u s t c o n fir m e d w h a t I w a s s a y i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t e ls e w h e r e o n t h i s d o c u m e n t . . .

( in t e r v e n e s )
M R M Y E N I : J u s t o n C C h a ir, j u s t b e l o w w h e r e y o u a r e r e a d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MYENI: Same page but C.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .

Page 88 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR MYENI: So, we commenced work on March.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , t h e p o in t y o u a r e m a k in g is th a t o n t h e ir v e r s i o n it
a p p e a r s th a t th e y s a y t h e y s t a r te d th e w o r k in M a r c h 2 0 1 5 .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e d o k n o w th a t i f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e y h a v e
p u t u p a s t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e m s e lv e s a n d t h e d e v e lo p e r, t h a t
a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t c o n c lu d e d i n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
M R M Y E N I : J u l y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J u ly 2 0 1 5 .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M Y E N I : S o , th e y c a n c o m e e x p l a i n t h a t w h y t h a t is th e c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , I j u s t w a n t t o b e c l e a r a b o u t t h i s . V N A a s
r e c o r d e d i n 2 B o n p a g e 9 o f Ex h ib i t 2 7 p a i d Pr e m i e r A t t r a c t i o n 2
m il li o n r a n d f o r w o r k t h a t it b e li e v e d P r e m i e r h a d d o n e b u t Pr e m i e r h a d
n o t d o n e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M R M Y E N I:

O r M a y b e h e w a s m is ta k e n .

M a y b e h is m e m o r y a l s o . . .

( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m n o t s u r e i f y o u i n tu r n s a y i n g w h a t y o u h a v e
ju s t s a i d b e c a u s e y o u q u a l if i e d y o u r a n s w e r e a r l i e r o n i n r e l a ti o n t o 2 B
b y s a y in g t h a t i t is n o t tr u e t h a t th e y p a i d - th e y m a d e t h a t p a y m e n t f o r

Page 89 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
r e p o r t s t h a t y o u h a d p r e p a r e d . B u t w h a t y o u d i d s a y is t h a t t h e y p a i d
y o u f o r w o r k th a t y o u h a d c o m p l e te d .
M R M Y E N I: Ye s C h a ir, I t h in k y o u s a id t h e s a m e t h i n g . Yo u s a i d r e p o r t
that were prepared.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : S o y e s , s o th e w o r k t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e p r e p a r e d y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MYENI:

B u t t h e r e p o r ts h e r e - a r e a c t u a lly i n d ic a t e w h o p r e p a r e d

them.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MYENI:

S o t h o s e o n e s , w e w o u l d n o t b e p a i d f o r w o r k th a t w e

w o u ld n o t h a v e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MYENI:

W e w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a i d f o r w o r k t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e

done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : B u t I w a s s a y i n g t h a t I m a y h a v e p a s s e d t h e d o c u m e n ts o n
to them.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e c h a ll e n g e M r M y e n i w it h t h a t is , i s th a t
20

t h o s e a r e n o t t h e r e p o r ts t h a t V N A s a i d i t w a s p a y i n g 2 m il li o n fo r.
T h e s e r e p o r ts t h a t y o u h a v e n o r e c o r d s o f th a t y o u s a y d e a lt w it h t h e
s tr u c t u r a l d e s i g n o f th e h o u s e s .
MR MYENI: Ja, I cannot answer for VNA.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

V N As v e r s i o n is t h e y p a i d 2 m i ll io n b e c a u s e

t h e y r e c e iv e d a w h o l e l o t o f r e p o r ts t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d t o th e m f r o m s u b -

Page 90 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
c o n tr a c to r s w h o w e r e o w e d m o n i e s b e c a u s e o f t h e w o r k s t h a t th e y h a v e
b e e n d o i n g fo r y o u a s p r o j e c t d e v e l o p e r. A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t th a t
is f a ls e .
M R M Y E N I : I a m s u r e if y o u a s k e d t h o s e c o m p a n i e s , t h e y d o n o t e v e n
know me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e a s k e d t h e c o m p a n i e s a n d t h e y d o n o t
k n o w y o u . Yo u a r e a b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t a b o u t th a t .
MR MYENI: So?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h a t I a m i n t e r e s te d i n i s t h a t V N A s a y s i t
10

p a i d y o u 2 m il li o n r a n d f o r a s e r i e s o f r e p o r ts th a t i t b e li e v e d y o u h a d
p r o c u r e d a n d w e r e o w e d f o r.

A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e s a y s t h a t i s f a ls e ,

correct?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e y a ls o d id n o t p a y y o u f o r th e r e p o r t s
t h a t y o u h a v e n o r e c o r d s o f th a t y o u r e v id e n c e to d a y in d i c a t e s d e a l t
w i t h d e s ig n o f t h e s tr u c tu r e s o f th e h o u s e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR MYENI:

Ye s .

S o , w i t h o u t t h e s e l li n g r e p o r ts s o f o r in s t a n c e w e

w o u ld m e e t a t th e ir o ffic e s a n d w e w o u l d w o r k o n t h o s e d e s i g n s . S o , i t
is n o t n e c e s s a r il y t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o f in d a n a c tu a l r e p o r t b u t y o u
20

m i g h t fi n d d r a w i n g s . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w m a n y t i m e s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
M R M Y E N I : Yo u m i g h t fi n d a ll ty p e s o f t h i n g s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w m a n y t i m e s d i d y o u m e e t ?
M R M Y E N I:

I d o n o t k n o w, m a n y ti m e s .

ti m e s .

Page 91 of 156

I cannot recall how many

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fiv e o r t e n ?
M R M Y E N I:

I cannot recall, many times.

I c a n n o t r e c a ll h o w m a n y

ti m e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o r e t h a n t e n ?
M R M Y E N I : I c a n n o t r e c a ll m a ’a m . M a n y ti m e s , t h o u g h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll I j u s t n e e d s o m e i n d ic a ti o n o f w h a t m a n y
ti m e s is b e c a u s e y o u w e r e p a i d 2 m il li o n r a n d fo r t h i s w o r k M r M y e n i .
A n d I w o u l d li k e to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w e n t i n t o t h e w o r k th a t p r o d u c e d
t h e p a y m e n t o f 2 m i ll io n r a n d .
10

S o , c a n y o u g iv e m e a n o r d e r o f

magnitude?
MR MYENI: I cannot say how many times we met.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: So, did you provide VNA with any report that related
t o w o r k t h a t y o u r Pr e m i e r A t tr a c t io n h a d d o n e in r e g a r d s t o t h is
project?
M R M Y E N I : O k a y s o n o t t h e r e p o r t m a y b e i n th e s e n s e t h a t y o u s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A w r i t te n r e p o r t .
M R M Y E N I : N o t a r e p o r t i n th is s e n s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

MR MYENI: But we would have provided them work that we have done
w h ic h r e q u ir e d u s t o m e e t o r n o t to m e e t , i t d id n o t r e a lly m a t t e r. W e
w o u ld h a v e p r o v i d e d t h a t t o t h e m a n d I i n d ic a t e d e a r li e r t h a t t h e y w o u ld
t h e n c o m p i le a ll t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n , p u t i t t o g e t h e r a n d fi n a ll y s u b m i t t o
the client.

S o , t h e r e m a y b e n o t b e a s p e c i f ic r e p o r t s a y i n g t h is h a s

b e e n c o m p i le d e t c e t e r a b u t w e w o u l d h a v e d o n e o u r s e r v i c e s a n d

Page 92 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
h a n d e d o v e r w h a te v e r i t is t h a t w o u l d h a v e n e e d e d to t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s t h a t a n s w e r m e a n o n e , P r e m ie r A t tr a c ti o n d i d

n o t p r o v i d e V N A w i t h a n y r e p o r t o f t h e w o r k t h a t- a n y w r i t t e n r e p o r t o f
t h e w o r k th a t th e y h a d d o n e .

Or does it mean that you are not sure

w h e t h e r s o m e w h e r e t h e r e m a y b e a r e p o r t ly i n g th a t r e l a y s t o w o r k t h a t
y o u d i d a n d a r e p o r t th a t y o u m a y h a v e p r o v id e d to V N A . Yo u ju s t d o
n o t k n o w, y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , C h a ir s o s o m e w h e r e t h e r e c o u ld b e a r e p o r t l y i n g b u t
y o u k n o w o u r s e r v ic e s w e r e s u p p o r t s e r v i c e s t o V N A a n d w h a t t h e y h a d
10

t o d o . S o , w e w o u l d n o t h a v e c o m p i le d a n a c t u a l r e p o r t p e r s e . B u t w e
w o u ld h a v e d o n e w o r k a n d h a n d e d i t o v e r t o th e m f o r t h e m t o t h e n
c o m b in e w i t h w h a te v e r o t h e r a s p e c t s a n d th e n t h e y w o u ld s e n d th a t
in f o r m a ti o n t o t h e c li e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th a t b e s o m e t h i n g i n w r i t in g w h e t h e r y o u c a ll i t
a r e p o r t o r a n e m a il o r a l e t te r t h a t w o u l d h a v e c o m e f r o m P r e m i e r
A t tr a c t io n t o V N A th a t s a y s ; th is i s h o w f a r w e a r e n o w w i t h t h e w o r k
the we are supposed to do.

A n d m a y b e o n c e y o u h a d c o m p l e te d th e

w o r k m a y b e a n e m a i l o r a l e t te r t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e s e n t t o t h e m to
s a y ; w e h a v e n o w c o m p l e te d t h e w o r k .
20

M R M Y E N I: I t is p o s s i b le C h a ir b u t a ls o a s I s a i d w e u s e d t o m e e t s o
t h o s e w e r e t h e s t a t u s u p d a te s t o m e e t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M Y E N I:

A n d to s a y t h is i s w h e r e w e a r e .

T h is is w h a t w e h a v e

d o n e e tc e t e r a . A l th o u g h I c a n n o t r e a l ly r e c a l l e x a c tly b u t t h a t is w h a t
w o u ld h a p p e n a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )

Page 93 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M y e n i , d o y o u h a v e a c l e a r r e c o ll e c ti o n t h a t s o m e
o f y o u r p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts w o u l d h a v e b e e n v e r b a l o th e r s in w r it i n g b y
w a y o f a n e m a il o r l e tt e r o r a r e y o u n o t s u r e ?
MR MYENI:

O h y e s , t h e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n v e r b a l b e c a u s e Mr N a r s a i

w a s b a s e d i n D u r b a n s o h e w o u l d o n ly c o m e u p f o r t h e b i g g e r
m e e ti n g s . T h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n m a y b e p h o n e c a ll s t o h i s t e a m t h a t
w a s b a s e d in J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n e m a il s a s w e l l, I
cannot.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d I t a k e i t th e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n v o ic e s t h a t

P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n s e n t to V N A ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , I w o u ld d e f in i te ly h a v e i n v o ic e fo r t h e 2 m i ll io n r a n d ,
yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ms H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u i n v o ic e a l o n g th e w a y a s y o u w e r e

d o i n g t h is w o r k a n d h a v i n g t h e m e e t in g s ?
M R M Y E N I : N o , w e w o u l d h a v e in v o ic e d p r o b a b ly a t t h e e n d . W h e n i t
w a s t i m e fo r u s t o b e p a i d . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d id y o u k n o w w h e n i t w a s t i m e f o r y o u t o
be paid?
20

M R M Y E N I : W h e n t h e w o r k w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o m p l e t e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u m a d e a p o i n t e a r li e r i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y
in r e s p o n s e t o t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e p a i d fo r w e r e
t h e s u p p o r t s e r v ic e s t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d to V N A . D i d I h a v e t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I:

W h a t I w a s s a y i n g is o u r s e r v ic e s w e r e s u p p o r ti n g w h a t

V N A w a s d o in g .

Page 94 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR MYENI: So not providing support services per se.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e c h a l le n g e I h a v e w i t h t h a t M r M y e n i is V N A
d o e s n o t b e l ie v e i t w a s p a y i n g y o u fo r t h a t r e a s o n , c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M m , it b e li e v e d i t w a s p a y in g y o u fo r w o r k y o u
did not do, correct?
10

M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w o r k t h a t y o u s a y V N A a s k e d y o u t o d o , w o u l d it
h a v e b e e n w o r k th a t t h e y d i d n o t h a v e c a p a c i ty t o d o ? I n o t h e r w o r d s ,
w h y d id t h e y b r i n g y o u i n ?
MR MYENI:
the

Ye s .

S o y e s , c a p a c i ty b r o a d ly C h a ir c o u ld h a v e b e e n a t

ti m e s k i ll , e x p e r ti s e , i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n

consultants.

ti m e , n o t e n o u g h

I t c o u ld h a v e b e e n a r a n g e o f t h i n g s d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t

t h e y n e e d e d t o d e liv e r a t t h a t t i m e s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n c a p a c i ty o r s k i lls o r e x p e r ti s e
20

t h a t P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n h a d ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir, h a d o r c o u ld s o u r c e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat the last part.
MR MYENI: Had or could source.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .

Page 95 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

I d o h a v e a fo ll o w u p

q u e s t io n o n t h a t. I u n d e r s to o d y o u p r e v io u s l y to s a y y o u r t e s t i m o n y - in
y o u r t e s ti m o n y th a t t h e s c o p e o f s e r v ic e s t h a t P r e m ie r w a s r e q u ir e d to
f u l fi l r e l a te d to d e s i g n w o r k f o r s tr u c t u r e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MYENI:

J a s o w h a t I w a s e x p l a i n i n g is t h a t i t w o u l d n o t h a v e

r e l a t e d t o t h e w o r k t h a t y o u h a v e s p o k e a b o u t s e w e r f o r in s t a n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : B e c a u s e t h a t is b e l o w t h e g r o u n d .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : S o , I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t h e w o u ld h a v e s p o k e n d ir e c tl y
t o t h e a c t u a l s tr u c t u r e t h a t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n y th in g e ls e i n y o u r s c o p e o f s e r v ic e s ?
M R M Y E N I : Ar e y o u a s k i n g m e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MR MYENI:

O h , I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h a t t h e s c o p e o f s e r v ic e w a s t h a t I

m e n ti o n e d b u t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d t h e t o p s t r u c t u r e .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M y e n i , I h a v e t o in d ic a t e to y o u t h a t I h a v e
a c o n c e r n w it h a s i tu a ti o n i n w h ic h y o u r c o m p a n y w a s p a id 2 m i ll io n
r a n d f o r a s c o p e o f s e r v ic e s t h a t y o u c a n n o t n o w r e c a ll w h a t i t
in c l u d e d . H o w d id y o u c o m p il e y o u r i n v o i c e f o r 2 m il li o n r a n d if y o u a s
you sit here today do not know what the scope of services was for that
work?

Page 96 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R M Y E N I : M a ’ a m w e c o m p i l e d o u r i n v o i c e a f te r w o r k d o n e i n 2 0 1 5 , i t
is fiv e y e a r s a g o .

I c o n d u c t m y - I c o n d u c t a l o t o f b u s in e s s e s C h a ir

a n d I d o a l o t o f tr a n s a c ti o n s .
tr a n s a c ti o n .

I c a n n o t r e c a l l a 2 - m i ll io n - r a n d

I t i s - I j u s t s i m p l y c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e d e t a i ls o f w h a t w a s

h a p p e n in g a t t h e t i m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o , a s y o u s i t h e r e t o d a y y o u h a v e n o c e r t a i n ty
a s to w h a t w o r k y o u d id t o m e r i t t h e p a y m e n t o f 2 m i ll io n r a n d ?
MR MYENI:

I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n s u l ti n g w o r k a r o u n d t h e t o p

s tr u c t u r e .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e t o p s tr u c t u r e .
M R M Y E N I : T h e h o u s i n g , t h e a c t u a l h o u s in g d e s i g n e tc e t e r a . T h a t i s
w h a t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d . I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r ta i n w h a t i t w a s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n I w a n t t o p u t i t to y o u Mr M y e n i th a t i t i s
h i g h ly u n l ik e l y t h a t th a t ty p e o f w o r k w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e w i t h o u t
t h e r e b e i n g a s in g l e w r i tt e n r e c o r d o f th e w o r k y o u p e r fo r m e d o n t h e
t o p s tr u c t u r e s . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , I a c c e p t i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e w e r e t o g o b a c k t o O c t ic s a n d V N A ,
w e h a v e a l r e a d y g o n e t o y o u r s e lf f o r r e c o r d s a n d n o o n e h a s a s i n g le

20

s h r e d o f p a p e r r e f e r r i n g t o t h is w o r k t h a t y o u d i d .
MR MYENI: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

E n t it li n g y o u t o 2 m i ll io n r a n d o n t h e t o p

s tr u c t u r e s . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t th a t w o u l d b e c o n c e r n i n g ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , i t w il l b e c o n c e r n i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M m . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o m o v e t o th e s e c o n d

Page 97 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
s e t o f p a y m e n t s t h a t w e w e r e g o in g to l o o k a t t o d a y. A n d t h a t i s t h e
p a y m e n t s t h a t Pr e m ie r m a k e s to a n e n ti ty c a l l e d Is i b o n e l o .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o g e t u s r ig h t i n t h e c h r o n o l o g y Mr M y e n i ,
y o u r e c e iv e d t h e 2 m i ll io n r a n d fr o m V N A o n t h e 1 9 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 . I s
that correct?
M R M Y E N I : C o r r e c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e a f te r P r e m i e r m a d e t h r e e p a y m e n ts to
Is ib o n e l o . D o y o u r e c a l l t h e d a t e s o f t h o s e p a y m e n ts ?
10

M R M Y E N I : N o n o t - I k n o w y o u s e n d t h e m to u s b u t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d id s e n d t h e m t o y o u .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I d o n o t t h i n k i t is c o n t e n ti o u s s o I w i ll j u s t

r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y t h e n . O n t h e 2 4 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 P r e m ie r p a i d 1
m il li o n . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h a t p a g e a r e y o u r e a d in g ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I a m r e a d in g fr o m m y n o te s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , is i t y o u r n o t e s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t is in f a c t r e c o r d e d . I c a n g iv e i t to y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is r e c o r d e d i n t h e r e g u l a ti o n 1 0 ( 6 ) th a t w a s
is s u e d t o M r M y e n i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o , b o t h o f y o u c a n f o l lo w. Yo u c a n fi n d i t
at Exhibit DD27 at page 234.

Page 98 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m m - h m m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w il l s e e th e r e M r My e n i u n d e r p a r a g r a p h

1 .1 B w e s ta r t t o r e c o r d t h e r e t h e p a y m e n t s . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s o m e t i m e s h e a r li k e y o u a r e s a y in g M s My e n i .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h , I d o a p o l o g i s e . I m u s t b e v e r y c l e a r t h a t i t
is Mr M y e n i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M y e n i , a m I h e a r i n g r ig h t? D o y o u h e a r th e s a m e
thing?
M R M Y E N I : I w a s n o t r e a l ly l is t e n i n g C h a i r. I a m n o t s u r e .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o a p o l o g is e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w il l b e v e r y c le a r.

And just for the

tr a n s c r ib e r s , t o d a y ’s e v i d e n c e is g iv e n b y M r My e n i s o if I e v e r m a k e a n
e r r o r i n m y p r o n u n c i a t i o n t h e tr a n s c r i p t w il l r e fl e c t c o r r e c t ly.
R i g h t s o w e p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 1 B o n p a g e 2 3 4 b e c a u s e
t h a t i s w h e r e w e d e a l w i th t h e t h r e e p a y m e n ts m a d e o u t f r o m P r e m i e r
to Isibonelo?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e fi r s t o f t h o s e i t is r e c o r d e d a t B o c c u r r e d
20

o n t h e 2 4 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d t h a t w a s a R 1 m i ll io n p a id t o I s i b o n e l o .
T h e s e c o n d p a y m e n t w a s a n a m o u n t o f R 1 1 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d th a t w a s
p a i d o n th e 11 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 t o I s i b o n e l o . A n d t h e th ir d p a y m e n t w a s
a p a y m e n t m a d e o n th e 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d t h a t w a s a n a m o u n t o f R 1
m il li o n t o I s i b o n e l o . N o w y o u r e s p o n d e d i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t a n s w e r i n g t h e
d ir e c t iv e r e c e i v e d t h a t w e h a v e j u s t lo o k e d a t a b o u t t h e s e p a y m e n ts

Page 99 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e y o u th e r e . I t is a t p a g e 2 o f t h e b u n d le in fr o n t
o f y o u Ex h i b it D D 2 7 . C o u l d y o u p le a s e r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d w h a t y o u
s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 8 o n t h a t p a g e o f y o u r a ff id a v it ?
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
“In

respect

C o n s tr u c t i o n

of

–

the

or

in

respect

tr a n s a c t i o n s

to

made

I s i b o n e lo

by

P r e m ie r

A t tr a c t io n 1 0 1 6 w e r e b u s i n e s s tr a n s a c ti o n c a r r i e d o u t
in t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e o f P r e m i e r A t tr a c t io n s b u s i n e s s
a c ti v i ti e s . H o w e v e r I d o n o t h a v e a n y r e c o l le c t i o n o f
t h e n a t u r e o f t h e s a i d b u s i n e s s tr a n s a c ti o n s d u e t o

10

t h e f a c t th a t a s i g n i fi c a n t p e r io d o f t i m e h a s p a s s e d
s in c e d o i n g b u s in e s s w i th t h e s a id c o m p a n y. ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 9 ?
MR MYENI:
“ I d o n o t h a v e a n y fo r m o f d o c u m e n t a t i o n r e l a t i n g t o
the

business

tr a n s a c ti o n s

made

w i th

the

s a id

c o m p a n y d u e t o t h e s ig n i f ic a n t p e r io d o f t i m e t h a t
has passed.”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

M r M y e n i g iv e n t h e s i g n i fi c a n t p e r i o d o f ti m e

w h y c a n y o u b e s u r e th a t th e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s r e l a t e d t o th e b u s i n e s s o f
P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n 1 0 1 6 ?
MR MYENI:

To b u s i n e s s – t o c o m p a n y a n d I w a s c o n d u c t i n g it t h a t

w a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d …
M R M Y E N I:

S o I w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t i t is a b u s i n e s s r e l a t e d

Page 100 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
tr a n s a c ti o n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t e ls e c a n y o u a s s i s t u s w i th in r e la t io n t o
t h e p a y m e n t t o Is i b o n e lo C o n s t r u c ti o n ? W h a t c o u l d i t h a v e r e la t e d t o i n
t h e c o u r s e o f P r e m i e r ’s b u s i n e s s ?
M R M Y E N I : W e ll n o t h i n g b u t b u s in e s s r e l a te d tr a n s a c t i o n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r t o b e

t h e b u s i n e s s r e l a t e d t o p r o p e r ty. I d i d n o t g e t m a n y o t h e r s p e c i fi c s s o
w h a t p a r t o f P r e m ie r ’s b u s i n e s s w o u ld t h i s p a y m e n t h a v e r e l a t e d to ?
MR MYENI: So…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k h e s a i d e a r l ie r t h a t P r e m ie r A t tr a c ti o n d o e s a
lo t o f t h i n g s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : I t h a s o v e r th e y e a r s . O v e r th e y e a r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o v e r t h e y e a r s ja .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i n 2 0 1 5 …
CHAIRPERSON: But …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

2 0 1 6 w h a t p a r t o f P r e m ie r ’s b u s i n e s s w o u ld

h a v e a s s o c i a te d i t w i t h I s i b o n e l o ?
MR MYENI:

I c a n n o t s a y f o r s u r e b e c a u s e a s I s a id w e h a v e d o n e

m a n y th i n g s . I m e a n a n o p p o r t u n i ty c a n c o m e t o d a y i n e n e r g y I w i ll g o
for it.

S o I c a n n o t s a y w h a t i t w a s a t t h a t ti m e .

Is ib o n e l o

was

c o n s tr u c ti o n

–

as

c o n s tr u c ti o n

A l l I k n o w is t h a t
company

or

is

a

c o n s tr u c ti o n c o m p a n y s o I w o u l d a s s u m e it w o u l d b e a r o u n d t h a t I d o

Page 101 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
n o t k n o w. I c a n n o t s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s P r e m i e r A t t r a c t i o n – o r d i d P r e m ie r A t tr a c ti o n

o v e r th e y e a r s a t s o m e s t a g e o r a n o t h e r d o c o n s t r u c t i o n a s w e ll ?
M R M Y E N I:

Ye s w e h a v e d o n e a n d a t t e m p t e d c o n s t r u c t i o n p r o j e c ts ,

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r to b e , i t
m u s t h a v e h a d t o d o w i t h P r e m i e r ’s b u s i n e s s a c tiv i ti e s b e c a u s e P r e m ie r
d o e s n o t m a k e p a y m e n t s o t h e r th a n p a y m e n ts a s s o c i a t e d w i t h i ts
10

b u s i n e s s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MYENI: Ja I guess.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Hm. Mr Myeni the witness who seeks to give

e v i d e n c e i n c a m e r a l a t e r to d a y w i ll s a y i n h is e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e r e h a s
n e v e r b e e n a b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n P r e m ie r a n d Is ib o n e l o a n d
t h a t t h e s e p a y m e n t s h a d n o th in g t o d o w it h a n y s e r v i c e s r e n d e r e d t o
P r e m i e r. D o y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e t o t h a t?
M R M Y E N I:

I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n w h a t t h e w it n e s s w il l b e s a y in g o r

has said.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n M s H o f m e y r t e l ls y o u w h a t t h e w i tn e s s w il l s a y
20

s h e is g iv i n g y o u ’r e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y w h a t t h e w i t n e s s w ill b e
s a y in g w i ll b e t r u e o r w h a t th e w i t n e s s w i ll b e s a y i n g is n o t – w i ll n o t b e
tr u e .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i t is n o t p r o b a b le b e c a u s e o f t h i s a n d t h a t . H e i s
g iv i n g y o u a c h a n c e t o d e a l w it h th a t .

Page 102 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R M Y E N I : O h y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W i t n e s s ’ e v id e n c e b e c a u s e t h a t e v i d e n c e m a y b e

i m p l ic a t i n g y o u o r y o u r c l o s e C lo s e d C o r p o r a ti o n i n s o m e w r o n g d o i n g .
M R M Y E N I: O h . N o i t – t h a n k y o u f o r c l a r if y i n g C h a ir. I t i s j u s t th a t i t
is a b i t d i ffi c u l t t o s p e a k t h e w a y o f s o m e o f t h e s e p e o p l e b e c a u s e I
h a v e a l o t o f r e s p e c t f o r th e m b u t w h a t t h e w i t n e s s w il l b e s a y in g i s n o t
tr u th f u l . Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u h a v e a n y e v i d e n c e o r d o c u m e n ts to

s u p p o r t t h a t h is v e r s i o n is f a ls e a n d y o u r s is t r u e ?
10

MR MYENI: Which version?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e v e r s i o n t h a t – y o u r v e r s io n i s I p a id t h e s e
t h r e e tr a n c h e s o f R 1 m il li o n a n d a b i t m o r e i n r e l a ti o n to t h e b u s i n e s s
a c ti v i ti e s o f Pr e m i e r, c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H e w i ll c o m e a n d s a y th e r e is a n d h a s n e v e r

b e e n a b u s i n e s s r e la t io n s h ip b e t w e e n Is ib o n e lo a n d Pr e m i e r a n d w h a t
y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d t o t h e C h a ir i s y o u s a y h i s v e r s i o n is f a ls e a n d s o
m y f o ll o w u p is , d o y o u h a v e a s i n g l e d o c u m e n t a v a i l a b le t o y o u t o
s u p p o r t y o u r v e r s io n th a t th e s e a m o u n ts w e r e p a i d p u r s u a n t t o t h e
20

b u s i n e s s a c ti v i ti e s o f Pr e m i e r ?
M R M Y E N I : N o I d o n o t h a v e a d o c u m e n t C h a ir b u t y o u k n o w i t is q u i t e
d i ff ic u l t b e c a u s e h e is n o t b e i n g tr u t h f u l in s a y i n g w h a t h e i s s a y i n g .
A n d in a c tu a l fa c t t o p r o v e th a t t h e r e w a s a b u s in e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p a
m o r e r e c e n t t r a n s a c t io n w h ic h I h a v e r e c o l l e c ti o n o f a c t u a l ly w a s a
d e v e l o p m e n t a n d c o n s tr u c ti o n p r o j e c t i n E s ik h a w in i a n d a l t h o u g h I h a v e

Page 103 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
n o t – I m e a n I h a d n o t th o u g h t a b o u t i t s o I h a d n o t b e e n a b l e to lo o k
f o r d o c u m e n ts w h i c h c o u l d b e t h e r e , c o u l d n o t b e t h e r e b u t i t w e n t a s
f a r a s h i m s e n d i n g u s q u o t a t i o n s , d e s i g n s a n d a ll o f t h e s e t h i n g s . S o i t
is u n t r u e t h a t w e h a v e n e v e r h a d a b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p .

I t is

c o m p le t e l y u n tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s n o t h is e v i d e n c e . L e t m e b e c l e a r. H is
e v i d e n c e is a t th e ti m e o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s th e r e w a s n o b u s i n e s s
r e l a ti o n s h i p .
10

M R M Y E N I : O h . O k a y t h a t is fi n e . I t i s u n tr u e b u t t h a t i s f i n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d I s i b o n e lo h a v e s e n t P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n s s o m e

in v o ic e b e fo r e P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n p a id t h e s e a m o u n ts to t h e m ?
M R M Y E N I : T h e y s h o u ld h a v e , t h e y w o u l d h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I:

I a s s u m e s o C h a ir b u t y o u k n o w u n fo r t u n a t e l y I d o n o t

h a v e i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Es p e c ia ll y i f i t w a s b u s i n e s s ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s , y e s . Th e y w o u l d h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u s a y y o u – y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t i t
20

is e x a c t ly th a t I s i b o n e l o w o u ld h a v e d o n e fo r P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n t o b e
e n t i tl e d to p a y m e n t o f a t le a s t o n e t h e p a y m e n ts is a b o u t a m ill i o n o r
more.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e p a i d s u c h a l o t o f m o n e y.
M R M Y E N I : J a C h a ir I – y o u k n o w s p e c i fi c a ll y w i t h th o s e p a y m e n ts I

Page 104 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
c a n n o t r e c a ll . A s I s a i d t h o u g h w h a t I c a n r e c a l l is t h a t th e r e w a s t h a t
E s i k h a w i n i p r o j e c t w h ic h w e e n g a g e d o n .

H o w m u c h o r h o w fa r t h a t

went but…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y t h a t is m u c h l a t e r, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M Y E N I : I t w o u l d – ja I th i n k th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M u c h l a te r ?
M R M Y E N I : J a b e c a u s e i t i s s o m e t h in g th a t I h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n r e m e m b e r.
M R M Y E N I : T h e r e is a b i t o f a m e m o r y o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M Y E N I : B u t j a I d o n o t k n o w. I d o n o t w a n t to .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d P r e m ie r A t tr a c t i o n n o t b e a r e l a ti v e ly s m a ll

e n t i ty s o t h a t i f i t p a i d a n y b o d y a m i ll i o n r a n d i t w o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g to
r e m e m b e r o r is i t n o t s o s m a l l ?
M R M Y E N I : I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t th i n k y o u t o l d m e t h a t i n t e r m s o f s t a ff

s o m e t i m e s i t i s j u s t y o u o n l y.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e ti m e s y o u a n d o n e p e r s o n .
20

M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t g a v e m e t h e i m p r e s s io n i t is a s m a l l e n ti ty.
MR MYENI: So what I was explaining.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t i f a s m a ll e n ti ty p a y s
a n y b o d y R 1 m i ll io n th a t w o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g t o r e m e m b e r.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .

Page 105 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON: What it was about?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir. S o w h a t I w a s e x p la in i n g i n r e g a r d s t o t h e s t a ff
is s u e .

F o r i n s t a n c e i f y o u g o t o m y o ffi c e s n o w y o u w i ll f i n d p e o p l e

there.

They work.

S o m e p e o p le a r e e m p l o y e d b y C o m p a n y X , o t h e r

t h r o u g h C o m p a n y Y e t c e te r a d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t t h e y a r e t h e r e t o d o .
S o w h a t I w a s s p e c if ic a l ly t a l k i n g a b o u t w a s n o t t h a t I d o n o t h a v e
e m p l o y e e s o r I h a v e n e v e r h a d e m p l o y e e s . I w a s s i m p ly s a y i n g o n th e
b o o k s o f P r e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n y o u k n o w I c a n n o t r e c a ll h o w m a n y t h e r e
w o u ld h a v e b e e n o r – b u t a t t h e ti m e th e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n j u s t m e a s
10

a s o l e m e m b e r w h ic h i s t h e c a s e n o w if I a m – j a i f I a m c o r r e c t .

And

t h e n s p e c i f ic a l ly r e l a ti n g t o t h e p a y m e n t o f R 1 m il li o n w e h a v e
s u b m i tt e d

some

bank

s t a t e m e n ts

that

were

requested

on

these

tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d th e a m o u n ts d o g o a b i t h i g h e r t h a n t h e R 1 m i ll io n i n
t h e – i n th o s e s t a te m e n ts s o I w o u l d n o t s a y it w a s a b ig c o m p a n y C h a ir
b u t t h e a m o u n t s d id g o a b i t h i g h e r t h a n R 1 m ill i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d y o u p r o t e s t i f i t w a s d e s c r i b e d a s a s m a ll

e n t i ty ?
M R M Y E N I : N o i t is d e f in i te ly a s m a ll e n t it y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y.
20

M R M Y E N I : D e f in i te ly a s m a ll e n t it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MYENI: Ja but –
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : T h e a m o u n ts d o g o a b i t h ig h e r th a n R 1 m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t d o e s – i t d o e s – i t d o e s h a n d l e la r g e r

Page 106 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a n …
M R M Y E N I : T h a n ju s t R 1 m il li o n ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R 1 m il li o n .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M y e n i – M r M y e n i a p o lo g ie s i t w a s n o t j u s t
R 1 m il li o n . It w a s in e x c e s s o f R 3 m i ll io n b e t w e e n O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 5 a n d
F e b r u a r y o f 2 0 1 6 . I ju s t w a n t t o b e c le a r a s to y o u r e v id e n c e t o d a y. I s
it th a t d e s p i t e th e f a c t t h a t P r e m i e r A t t r a c ti o n p a i d R 3 m il li o n o v e r t h a t
10

p e r i o d t o I s i b o n e l o a s y o u s it h e r e t o d a y y o u c a n n o t t e l l u s w h a t th a t
work was?
M R M Y E N I : J a I c a n n o t s a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h a v e n o r e c o r d s o f a n y in v o ic e s fr o m
Is ib o n e l o o r a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n t a r y e v i d e n c e o f t h e w o r k t h a t y o u
a l le g e w a s d o n e b y Is i b o n e lo t o m e r i t t h o s e p a y m e n ts .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d t h e n lik e t o j u s t a s k w h a t y o u r r e la …

20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I ju s t w a n t e d t o s a y th a t th a t c o m e s a c r o s s t o

m e a s q u it e e x tr a o r d i n a r y if a n e n ti ty a s – a s m a ll e n ti t y I th i n k w e
a g r e e d w e c a n d e s c r i b e i t a s s m a l l e n ti ty.
M R M Y E N I : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

P a y s to a n o t h e r c o m p a n y o v e r a f e w m o n t h s R 3

m il li o n b u t t h e o w n e r o f th e b u s i n e s s c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t w o r k t h e y

Page 107 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
– w a s d o n e fo r t h e m to ju s ti fy p a y i n g t h a t a m o u n t .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th a t ?
M R M Y E N I : C h a ir i t w a s 2 0 1 5 a n d a s I h a v e s a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I : S in c e t h e n w e h a v e d o n e a l o t o f tr a n s a c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M Y E N I : I c a n n o t s p e c i fic a lly r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e w i th la r g e a m o u n t s .
10

MR MYENI:

M a y b e i f w e a r e t a lk i n g a v e r y b ig a m o u n t t h e n I w o u l d

m a y b e r e c a l l b u t I r e a l ly C h a i r r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a O k a y.
M R M Y E N I : I c a n n o t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t to s a y t h a t y o u a r e s a y in g
t h a t p a y m e n t o f R 3 m i ll io n b y P r e m ie r A t t r a c t io n o v e r t h o s e m o n th s a t
t h e ti m e w i th e v e r y t h i n g t h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d a f t e r w h ic h m i g h t
h a v e i n v o lv e d Pr e m i e r A t tr a c ti o n b e in g in v o lv e d i n la r g e tr a n s a c t i o n s –
la r g e r tr a n s a c t i o n s is n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u – y o u c a n r e m e m b e r w h a t
it w a s a b o u t ?
20

M R M Y E N I:

W e ll I c a n n o t s a y w h e t h e r it w a s i n v o lv e d in l a r g e r

tr a n s a c ti o n s o r n o t b u t I a m s a y i n g C h a ir fr o m t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e
s u b m i tt e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M Y E N I : Yo u c a n c l e a r l y s e e t h a t t h e r e w e r e l a r g e r a m o u n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 108 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R M Y E N I:

T h a t – t h a t w e r e m o v in g i n t h e a c c o u n t .

So – I mean –

a n d i t is o v e r f iv e , s i x m o n t h s o r s o t h e s e t r a n s a c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Y E N I: I t is n o t lik e it is a o n c e o ff l u m p s u m o f R 3 m i ll io n . S o it
is v e r y d i ff ic u l t to tr a c k b a c k a n d s a y w h a t it w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M y e n i y o u h a v e d r a w n a t t e n t io n t o t h e s t a t e
o f t h e b u s i n e s s a t th e ti m e t h a t th e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s w e r e m a d e fr o m a
s o r t o f t u r n o v e r o r c a s h f l o w p e r s p e c tiv e .
10

T h a t is w h y I b e g a n t h e

q u e s t io n in g t o d a y t o a s k y o u fo r a n i n d i c a ti o n o f t h e t u r n o v e r o f t h e
b u s i n e s s b u t y o u w e r e n o t a b le t o g i v e m e a n i n d ic a ti o n o f th a t , i s th a t
correct?
M R M Y E N I : J a I c a n n o t s a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u k n o w t h a t b e f o r e th e R 2 m il li o n w a s

p a i d fr o m V N A t o P r e m i e r t h e b a l a n c e in t h e a c c o u n t w a s R 1 4 4 9 . 7 9 ?
M R M Y E N I : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
MR MYENI: I can accept it yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d t h e n o v e r th e p e r i o d w h e r e y o u p a i d
20

t h e R 3 m i lli o n t h e h ig h e r a m o u n t i n th e a c c o u n t w a s R 9 7 4 4 6 0 8 .0 0 . D o
y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
MR MYENI: Sure. Sure.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t R 3 m il li o n i s q u i te a

s u b s t a n t ia l p r o p o r ti o n o f th a t?
M R M Y E N I: J a b u t y o u – y o u a r e l o o k i n g a t t h r e e b a n k s t a te m e n ts t h a t

Page 109 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
a r e h ig h l i g h t in g th e s p e c i f ic tr a n s a c t i o n s o v e r a s ix m o n t h p e r i o d . W e
d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t h e a c c o u n t w a s in b e t w e e n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I o n l y h a v e t h e s e d o c u m e n ts t o g o w i t h M r
M y e n i b e c a u s e y o u w il l n o t t e ll t h i s c o m m i s s io n w h a t y o u r g e n e r a l
t u r n o v e r is i n th e b u s i n e s s .
MR MYENI:

I t is n o t I w il l n o t .

I t i s – I a m s a y in g I c a n n o t s a y.

I

c a n n o t r e a ll y r e c a ll w h a t w e w e r e m a k i n g i n 2 0 1 5 . I c a n n o t s a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I w il l le a v e th a t q u e s ti o n t h e r e . I w o u l d
t h e n l ik e t o k n o w w h a t y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p is t o M s D u d u z il e My e n i .
10

M R M Y E N I : S h e is m y m o t h e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

The witness who has applied to

g iv e e v i d e n c e i n c a m e r a l a te r w i ll s a y t h e f o l lo w i n g a b o u t t h e m o n i e s
t h a t w e r e r e c e iv e d i n to t h e a c c o u n t , th e Is ib o n e l o a c c o u n t w h ic h th e
w i t n e s s s a y s h a d n o th i n g t o d o w i t h a n y b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p a t t h e
ti m e w it h P r e m i e r.
MR MYENI: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d I a m g o i n g t o te ll y o u t h i s b e c a u s e I d o

n e e d t o k n o w i f y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e a b o u t th e s e fa c ts .
MR MYENI: Hm.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e w i tn e s s w il l s a y th a t y o u r m o t h e r M s M y e n i
c a l l e d h i m a f t e r t h o s e d e p o s i t s w e r e m a d e a n d i n s tr u c t e d h i m w h a t to
d o w i t h t h e m o n e y.

F o r th e fir s t tr a n c h e t h e r e w e r e a s e r i e s o f

in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t c a s h b e w i th d r a w n a n d m a d e a v a i l a b le t o h e r a n d in
r e l a ti o n t o th e s e c o n d tw o p a y m e n ts t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n s tr u c t io n t h a t
t h o s e m o n ie s b e p a i d l e s s a VAT p o r t io n t o t h e J a c o b Z u m a F o u n d a ti o n .

Page 110 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
D o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f t h o s e fa c t s ?
MR MYENI: No I do not have any knowledge. It does not make sense.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n o n e m o r e p o i n t th a t w il l c o m e u p i n
h is e v i d e n c e . T h e c o m m i s s i o n f ir s t c o m m u n ic a te d w it h y o u r l a w y e r s o n
t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y th is y e a r, i t w a s a Fr i d a y, d o y o u r e c a l l th a t a t a l l?
M R M Y E N I : I t is p o s s ib le , y e s . Ye s , s u r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p u r s u a n t to th e c o m m i s s io n m a k i n g c o n ta c t
w i t h y o u r l a w y e r s a n d a s k in g y o u q u e s ti o n s a b o u t t h e s e tr a n s a c t i o n s
t h e w i t n e s s w il l in d ic a t e t h a t h i s d a u g h te r r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a l l fr o m
10

y o u r m o th e r M s M y e n i . M y q u e s t io n to y o u is , a f t e r y o u w e r e a l e r t e d t o
t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s q u e s t io n s d i d y o u r e l a y t h a t t o y o u r m o t h e r ?
M R M Y E N I : Ye s I d id .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M y e n i .
M R M Y E N I : Ye s I d id .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a i r t h o s e a r e o u r q u e s ti o n s . I
s e e t h a t w e h a v e a f e w m i n u t e s b e fo r e t h e te a b r e a k i t m a y b e
a p p r o p r i a t e s u b je c t t o q u e s ti o n s y o u m a y h a v e f o r Mr M y e n i t h a t w e
move

the

a p p lic a ti o n

now

fo r m a l ly.

We

have

received

th e

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t a n d t h e n a r r a n g e m e n t s c a n b e m a d e o v e r l u n c h
20

d e p e n d in g o n y o u r r u l in g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w i s e y o u a r e d o n e w i t h Mr M y e n i?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r My e n i t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
M R M Y E N I : O h t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r c o m i n g to g iv e e v i d e n c e . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . I f a

Page 111 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
n e e d a r is e s f o r th e c o m m i s s io n to a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k w e w il l a s k y o u
to come back.
M R M Y E N I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very much.

Yo u a r e – y o u a r e e x c u s e d .

Ye s l e t u s d e a l w i th t h e a p p li c a t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I in d ic a t e d t h i s m o r n i n g t h a t
t h a t s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t w a s b e i n g p r e p a r e d b y t h e w i t n e s s . I b e g
le a v e to h a n d th a t u p i f I m a y ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir b e f o r e I m o v e t o th e s u p p le m e n t a r y

a ffi d a v i t i f I m a y ju s t h ig h l i g h t t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e b a s is u p o n w h ic h t h e
p e r s o n w h o I w i ll n o w r e f e r t o a s M r X b r i n g s a n a p p li c a t io n fo r h is
e v i d e n c e t o b e g iv e n i n s u c h a w a y th a t n e i th e r h is n a m e n o r h is
a p p e a r a n c e b e r e v e a l e d . C h a ir t h a t is t h e a p p lic a t io n s u p p o r t e d b y th e
m a in a ff i d a v i t a n d s u p p le m e n t e d b y t h e a ff id a v it th a t I h a v e j u s t h a n d e d
u p t o y o u . C h a i r t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e a p p l ic a ti o n is a s fo ll o w s :
M R M Y E N I : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e w i tn e s s i n d ic a t e s t h a t h e w il l g iv e e v id e n c e
t h a t w il l i m p li c a t e t h e p e r s o n s to w h o m n o t ic e o f to d a y ’s a p p l ic a ti o n
20

h a s a lr e a d y b e e n g iv e n .

I i n d ic a te d t h i s m o r n in g t h a t t h o s e p e r s o n s

in c l u d e d M r M y e n i w h o h a s j u s t g i v e n e v i d e n c e . M s M y e n i , M r M a j o l a
w h o w ill g iv e e v i d e n c e to m o r r o w a n d fo r me r Pr e s id e n t Z u m a .

The

w i t n e s s e x p l a i n s i n h is a p p lic a ti o n t h a t o n t h e a ft e r n o o n o f t h e 2 4
J a n u a r y – th is i s t h e p o i n t I p ic k e d u p w i t h M r M y e n i a t t h e e n d o f h is
evidence.

T h e w i t n e s s ’s d a u g h t e r r e c e iv e d a t e l e p h o n e c a ll fr o m M s

Page 112 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M y e n i a n d t h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h e a f t e r n o o n o f th a t d a y a n d w h a t M s
M y e n i r e l a y e d to t h e w i t n e s s ’s d a u g h t e r o n th a t c a ll w a s t w o q u e s t io n s .
S h e a s k e d w h y h e r f a t h e r w a s t e ll in g e v e r y o n e a b o u t t h e f u n d s t h a t
w e r e f a c il i ta t e d t h r o u g h h i s c o m p a n y.

A n d a s k e d w h y h e r f a th e r w a s

s e l li n g t h e m o u t . T h a t w a s a f e w h o u r s a f te r t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a d fir s t
m a d e c o n t a c t w i t h M r M y e n i a b o u t t h e m a t t e r s b e i n g i n v e s t ig a te d .
C h a ir th is is n o t i n th e w i t n e s s ’s a p p lic a ti o n b u t M r M y e n i h a s
c o n fir m e d to u s m o m e n ts a g o t h a t h e d id r e l a y t o h is m o t h e r M s M y e n i
t h a t h e h a d b e e n a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e c o m m is s i o n a b o u t t h e s e m a t te r s .
10

C h a ir M r X f u r t h e r s u p p o r ts h is a p p l ic a ti o n o n t h e b a s is t h a t M s M y e n i
a n d M r M a jo la w h o m h e w il l i m p li c a t e in s e r io u s w r o n g d o i n g i n h i s
e v i d e n c e a r e b o t h i n fl u e n ti a l m e m b e r s o f t h e ir c o m m u n i ty.

He does

a c c e p t th a t i t is lik e ly t h a t t h e y w i ll k n o w h is i d e n t i ty w h e n h e g iv e s t h is
e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e h e q u i te s i m p l y c a n n o t g iv e t h e e v i d e n c e b u t fo r
m a k i n g c l e a r h i s r e l a t i o n s h ip t o v a r i o u s e n ti ti e s a n d h is e n g a g e m e n ts
w i t h b o th M s M y e n i a n d M r M a jo l a . H o w e v e r h e s t il l m o t iv a te s f o r s o m e
m e a s u r e o f h i s id e n t i ty n o t t o b e r e v e a l e d b e c a u s e h e i n d ic a t e s i n h is
a ffi d a v i t t h a t t h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e i n t h e c o m m u n i ty i n w h ic h h e fi n d s
h i m s e l f w h o a r e d e p e n d e n t o n M s M y e n i a n d Mr M a j o la a n d h a v e b e e n
20

a s s is t e d p a r tic u l a r ly b y Ms M y e n i e c o n o m i c a l ly o v e r s o m e p e r io d . A n d
t h o s e p e o p l e w i ll n o t n e c e s s a r ily b e a b le t o id e n ti fy h i m w h e n h e g iv e s
t h is e v id e n c e .

B u t h e is c o n c e r n e d a b o u t a c t s o f r e ta li a ti o n b y t h o s e

in d i v i d u a ls w i t h in t h e c o m m u n i ty i f h e is id e n ti fi e d a n d p u b l ic l y
a s s o c i a t e d w it h q u o te “ s e ll in g o u t ” th e s e i m p o r t a n t a n d i n fl u e n t ia l
persons.

H e th e r e fo r e a s k s f o r a r u l in g t h a t e n d e a v o u r s t o b e a s

Page 113 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
f a i t h f u l t o t h e p u b l ic i n q u ir y n a t u r e o f th e s e p r o c e d u r e s b u t a ls o g i v e
h i m t h a t m e a s u r e o f p r o t e c ti o n o v e r w h ic h h e h a s a n y c o n tr o l a n d th a t
is t o n o t h a v e h is n a m e o r h is a p p e a r a n c e r e v e a l e d w h il e h e g iv e s h is
e v i d e n c e h e r e t o d a y. S o C h a ir i t is a g a i n s t t h a t b a c k d r o p t h a t th e l e g a l
t e a m o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n m o v e s t h e a p p l ic a t i o n o n h is b e h a l f .

I

e x p l a i n e d t h e o n ly r e a s o n w e d o th a t i s b e c a u s e h e is n o t l e g a ll y
represented.

W e d o h o w e v e r s u p p o r t t h e a p p li c a t io n a n d th e b a s is

g iv e n f o r i t .

W e h a v e p r e p a r e d t h e d r a ft o r d e r C h a i r a l o n g t h e l i n e s

t h a t y o u d e s c r i b e d t h is m o r n in g . A n d I b e g l e a v e j u s t to h a n d th a t u p .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll h is a ff i d a v i t s h o u l d a s k f o r l e a v e t o b e r e f e r r e d
to as Ms X.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s h o u l d i n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is o k a y w e – i t is o k a y. I t is n o t – i t is n o t a b i g
thing.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h in d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O h I th in k – I t h i n k – i t s h o u l d b e le a v e .

He

s a y s h e r e q u e s ts t h a t h e is r e f e r r e d to in t h a t m a n n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e r e q u e s ts .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o i n d e e d b u t le a v e w o u l d h a v e b e e n

appropriate.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y I t h i n k w h a t – w h a t w e s h o u l d d o i s I w il l –
I w il l d e a l w i t h i t w h e n I c o m e b a c k – w h e n w e c o m e b a c k .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h in k t h e o r d e r m u s t r e fl e c t t h a t t h e a p p li c a n t is

Page 114 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
Mr. X .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r W it n e s s X .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e – th e o r d e r m u s t h a v e a p a r t y. S o t h a t is
t h e – t h a t is w h a t s h o u l d b e t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l m a k e t h a t a m e n d m e n t c e r t a i n l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o n th e fa c e o f i t th e d r a f t o r d e r a p p e a r s t o c o v e r
b u t I w il l l o o k a t it f u r t h e r d u r i n g t h e l u n c h b r e a k .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t f r o m a lo g i s ti c s p o i n t o f v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e w i tn e s s h a s r e q u e s te d t h a t t h e r e b e a n

in t e r p r e t e r f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f h i s e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e w il l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a k e a ll o f t h o s e a r r a n g e m e n ts .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O v e r th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h th e r e q u e s t f o r t h e
in - c a m e r a p r o c e e d in g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 115 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n m o v e s tr a i g h t i n t o t h e e v id e n c e i f t h a t
is c o n v e n ie n t /
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o th a t – th a t is fi n e . A n d a r r a n g e m e n ts m u s t b e
m a d e t o o b t a i n th e c o r r e c t c e r ti f ic a te f o r t h e i n te r p r e t e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I a m e n c o u r a g e d b y t h e fa c t t h a t I a m t o l d
t h e in t e r p r e t e r h a s p r e v i o u s l y i n t e r p r e te d i n t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e w il l m a k e s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A l l o f th e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t s a r e a v a i la b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u r j u n i o r h a s d e a l t w i t h t h a t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And Reverend Stemela knows.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t fo r m a t t h e c e r ti fi c a t e m u s t t a k e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t I a m c o m f o r t a b le w i t h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s .

O k a y a lr i g h t .

S o I w i ll d e a l w i t h i t w h e n w e

resume.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O t h e r w i s e w e a d j o u r n f o r l u n c h a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t
two.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .

Page 116 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e a n o r d e r w it h t h e n a m e o f t h e a p p l ic a n t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d o i n d e e d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I b e g le a v e to h a n d t h a t u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

C h a ir o t h e r th a n t h e c o r r e c t i o n t o a c c u r a te ly

r e fl e c t t h a t it is M r X w h o b r i n g s t h e a p p lic a ti o n th e d o c u m e n t b e f o r e
y o u is t h e s a m e a s t h e p r io r d r a f t o r d e r th a t w e h a d h a n d e d u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u h a v e n o t p ic k e d u p a n y th i n g t h a t is n o t
covered?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d i d g o o v e r th e i n d i c a t io n t h a t y o u g a v e u s
t h is m o r n i n g a n d t h e r e w e r e o n e o r tw o a d d i ti o n s t h a t w e m a d e ju s t t o
d r a w y o u r a t t e n ti o n t o t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r p a r a g r a p h 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e e q u i v a l e n t t o p a r a g r a p h 6 h a d n o t i n c l u d e d
p e r s o n s n e c e s s a r y t o a s s is t o r p r o te c t t h e w i t n e s s w h e n h e g iv e s t h e
evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 117 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m t h e l o c a ti o n . W e d i d a d d t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th a t p e r s o n s i n t h e r o o m w i t h h i m fr o m t h e
P r o t e c ti o n S e r v ic e s w h o w i ll j u s t a s s is t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n o r ie n t a t i n g h i m w i t h t h e f il e s a n d th a t c a n b e
accommodated.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b e y o n d th a t I d o n o t r e c a l l t h e r e b e i n g –
10

w e d i d a d d t h e a u d io li n k , y o u w i ll s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 7 .

And then in

p a r a g r a p h 8 w e s o u g h t t o c a p t u r e a l l p o s s ib l e n e c e s s a r y a m e n d m e n ts
t h a t m a y f lo w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To t h is o r d e r i r r e s p e c tiv e o f – fr o m w h o m t h e y
come.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h e t h e r i t is n e c e s s a r y f o r th e w i t n e s s ’s

p r o t e c t io n o r i n d e e d t o e n s u r e f a ir n e s s t o a n y i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h o s e w e r e t h e a d d i ti o n s t o w h a t C h a ir y o u h a d
in d i c a t e d t h i s m o r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t .

I n r e s p e c t o f t h e a p p l ic a ti o n b r o u g h t

t h is m o r n in g b y Mr X I g r a n t t h e f o l lo w in g o r d e r.

Page 118 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
1 . T h e A p p li c a n t ’s n o n - c o m p l i a n c e w i t h a n o t ic e p e r i o d p r o v i d e d fo r
in te r m s o f R u l e 11 . 1 o f th e R u l e s g o v e r n in g p r o c e e d i n g s o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n i s c o n d o n e d .
2 . T h e A p p l ic a n t is to r e f e r r e d t o d u r i n g h is e v id e n c e – t h e
A p p l ic a n t / W i tn e s s is to b e r e f e r r e d t o d u r i n g h i s e v i d e n c e to t h e
c o m m i s s io n a n d a f te r h is e v id e n c e i n s o fa r a s t h e c o m m is s i o n is
c o n c e r n e d a s Mr X .
3 . T h e A p p li c a n t ’s n a m e s h a ll n o t b e d is c l o s e d o r p u b li s h e d i n a n y
m a n n e r.
10

4 . N o p e r s o n m a y t a k e o r p u b l is h a n y p h o t o g r a p h , i m a g e o r
a p p e a r a n c e o f t h e A p p lic a n t n o r h a v e h i s p h o t o g r a p h , i m a g e o r
a p p e a r a n c e p u b lis h e d in a n y w a y n o r b r o a d c a s t a n y v i d e o o f t h e
A p p l ic a n t .
5 . T h e A p p l ic a n t n e e d n o t b e p r e s e n t a t t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s h e a r in g
v e n u e w h e n g iv in g e v id e n c e a n d m a y g i v e h is e v i d e n c e f r o m a
s e c r e t l o c a ti o n .
6. No

person

o th e r

th a n

the

C h a ir p e r s o n ,

members

of

the

c o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m , t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s s a f e ty a n d s e c u r i ty
a d v is o r, t h o s e n e c e s s a r y to a s s i s t o r p r o te c t t h e w i t n e s s w h e n h e
20

g iv e s e v id e n c e o r a n o t h e r p e r s o n s p e c if ic a l ly d e s ig n a te d b y t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n w il l b e p e r m i tt e d t o e n te r t h e s e c r e t l o c a ti o n w i t h o u t
t h e p r i o r w r it t e n p e r m is s i o n o f th e C h a i r p e r s o n .
7 . A n a u d i o li n k fr o m t h e s e c r e t l o c a ti o n w i ll b e p r o v i d e d s o t h a t th e
A p p l ic a n t ’s e v i d e n c e c a n b e h e a r d i n th e h e a r in g r o o m w h e n h e
g iv e s – g iv e s i t.

Page 119 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
8 . T h i s o r d e r m a y b e a m e n d e d o r s u p p l e m e n t e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
a t a n y ti m e i f i n h is o p in io n t h a t i t is n e c e s s a r y t o e n s u r e t h e
p r o t e c t io n o f t h e w it n e s s o r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n in c o n n e c t io n w i th
t h e w i t n e s s ’ e v id e n c e o r t o e n s u r e fa ir n e s s t o a n y i m p l ic a te d
person.
T h a t is th e o r d e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W e a r e n o w i n a p o s i t io n

s u b j e c t t o th e i n te r p r e t e r b e i n g s w o r n i n a n d s u b j e c t t o – I u n d e r s ta n d
t h e o a t h n e e d s to b e a d m in is t e r e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g t h a t w a s m is s i n g i n th e

wording.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e c e r ti fi c a t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I h a d b e e n t o ld t w o m i n u te s w o u l d b e e n o u g h t o d o

that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k th a t th e r e w a s a n i s s u e w i t h th e p r i n te r.
I h a d s o m e m e s s a g e c o m e t o m e o f t h a t o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w e a r e h o p i n g t h a t t h a t w i ll b e r e s o lv e d

i m m i n e n tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
swearing of the witness.

C h a ir b e f o r e w e r e t u r n t h e o n e is s u e is t h e
M y p r o p o s a l i s th a t t a k e s p l a c e s s i m i la r ly

b e f o r e w e r e tu r n .

Page 120 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh yes.

Yo u r e m e m b e r – w e ll m a y b e y o u w e r e n o t

in v o lv e d . W it h r e g a r d to t h e o t h e r w it n e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t a k e n c a r e o f i n a c e r t a in w a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t n e e d t o r e c a ll h o w t h a t w a s d e a l t w i t h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e d o n e e d to a d j o u r n f o r a f e w m i n u te s t o g e t t h e

c e r t if ic a te s o r t e d o u t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I t h i n k w e w il l a d jo u r n a n d t h e n o n c e t h a t h a s

b e e n t a k e n c a r e o f th e n w e w i ll r e s u m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I th i n k w e a r e fi n a l ly in a

p o s i ti o n to p r o c e e d w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r X .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t h e h a s b e e n s w o r n i n
a n d th e n e x t m a t t e r f o r m e is ju s t t o a s k th a t h is a ffi d a v i t b e e n te r e d
in t o t h e r e c o r d o f th e e v i d e n c e a s E X H I B I T D D 3 1 .

C h a ir, t h e fi le i n

fr o n t o f y o u l a b e ll e d D D 3 1 c o m p r i s e s t h e w i t n e s s ’ a ffi d a v it a n d i ts

Page 121 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
annexures.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r X a n d th e a n n e x u r e s w il l b e

m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 3 1 a n d a d m i tt e d i n to t h e p r o c e e d in g s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e is g o in g to b e a n in t e r p r e te r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

F o r th e r e c o r d M s K h u m a l o w i ll b e th e

in t e r p r e t e r. S h e w il l i n t e r p r e t fr o m i s i Z u l u t o E n g l is h a n d f r o m E n g l is h
t o is i Z u l u a n d s h e h a s t a k e n th e r e q u ir e d o a t h a n d s h e h a s p r e v i o u s l y
10

in t e r p r e t e d i n p r o c e e d i n g s o f th is C o m m is s io n . Th a n k y o u Ms K h u m a lo .
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t b e g in w i th a n a u d io c h e c k t o
t h e w it n e s s . C a n - M s K h u m a lo , c o u l d y o u c o m m u n ic a te w i th M r X a s
t o w h e t h e r h e c a n h e a r u s a t th e m o m e n t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s . I c a n h e a r y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A lr ig h t .

M r X , d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t y o u h a v e

taken the prescribed oath?
20

M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r X , w h e n y o u m e t w i t h th e
le g a l t e a m a n d i n v e s t ig a t o r o f t h e C o m m i s s io n y e s te r d a y. Yo u s a i d t h a t
it w a s n o t e a s y fo r y o u to g i v e e v id e n c e t o d a y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : T h a t i s c o r r e c t .

Page 122 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u p l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir w h y i t i s n o t e a s y
f o r y o u t o g iv e e v i d e n c e to d a y ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s . I c a n t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . Is t h a t
m y s e l f a n d m y f a m il y w e a r e n o t s a f e . I t h i n k my fa m i ly a n d I w e a r e
not safe.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d o y o u f e e l u n s a fe ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Th e t r u t h t h a t I a m g o i n g t o r e v e a l t o d a y
is n o t a c c e p t a b l e to t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e i m p l ic a t e d i n i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y d o y o u g iv e t h e e v i d e n c e t o d a y ?
10

M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h I w a s a p p r o a c h e d

b y t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s i n t h i s m a t t e r.
that.

Th e r e w a s n o w a y I c o u l d c h a n g e

W h a t e v e r w a s b r o u g h t fo r w a r d to m e I c o u l d n o t c h a n g e t h a t

w h ic h w a s b r o u g h t b y t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w w il l y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y a ff e c t y o u r

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M s M y e n i , M r X ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I w o u ld s a y t h a t t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip b e t w e e n
m y s e l f a n d h e r w o u ld b e o v e r, b e c a u s e h e r w is h w o u ld b e f o r m e t o s a y
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w il l f a v o u r h e r, b u t u n f o r t u n a t e l y w h a t I h a v e o r w h a t I
a m g o i n g t o s a y is t o th e c o n tr a r y o f w h a t s h e is e x p e c ti n g m e t o s a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r X , a r e y o u a fr a id a b o u t g iv in g t h is e v i d e n c e
today?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

I w il l g iv e th e e v i d e n c e , b e c a u s e i t is

a b o u t t i m e I d o . Th o u g h it is n o t e a s y, b u t I w il l d o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r, I fo r g o t t o r a is e w i t h y o u th e q u e s ti o n o f
w h e t h e r t h e r e i s n o p r e v io u s w i t n e s s w e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a s Mr X . S o

Page 123 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
m a y b e y o u r j u n i o r c o u ld c h e c k .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e - in t h e m e a n ti m e w e c o n ti n u e u s in g M r X .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l d o th a t . C e r ta i n ly C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Just - because X is quite common.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Q u i te c o m m o n .

W h e n id e n ti ti e s a r e n o t to b e

d is c l o s e d . I n d e e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e - w e m u s t m a k e t h a t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s s o o n a s I h a v e a n a n s w e r i f n e c e s s a r y
w e w ill c h a n g e th e r e fe r e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A lr i g h t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

M r X , I w o u ld li k e y o u t o p l e a s e

lo o k i n th e f il e t h a t is m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 3 1 a n d i f y o u c o u l d g o t o
p a g e 1 in t h a t fi l e .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s . I h a v e - I a m o n p a g e 1 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u c a n g o t o t h e la s t p a g e o f
t h a t a ffi d a v i t . Yo u w i ll f in d th a t a t p a g e 2 8 . Mr X , c a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t
20

t h is is th e a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u d e p o s e d to y e s t e r d a y ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s . I t is in d e e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u c o n f i r m u n d e r o a th t o d a y t h a t a ll
o f t h e f a c ts s e t o u t in t h is a ffi d a v it a r e t r u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s . I c o n f ir m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

I w o u l d th e n li k e t o tu r n o v e r to

Page 124 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
p a g e 2 a n d I w o u l d l ik e to b e g in a t p a r a g r a p h 6 o n t h a t p a g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t M s H o f m e y r.

Yo u m ig h t

wish to …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Deal with paragraph 5.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I - I a m i n d e b t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e h e is - h e is t e s ti fy in g in is i Z u lu , b u t h i s

a ffi d a v i t i s i n E n g li s h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I n d e e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr X …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d le t u s m a k e s u r e th e

in t e r p r e t e r h a s g o t th e s a m e p a c k …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: Because when she interprets she might need to have
a l o o k a t th e p a g e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l m a k e t h a t a v a i la b le t o h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r X , a t p a r a g r a p h 5 o n p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t
y o u e x p l a i n w h y t h e a ffi d a v i t is i n E n g l is h , b u t y o u r e v id e n c e i n is i Z u lu .
C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n th a t to t h e C h a ir ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : M y e x p l a n a ti o n is C h a ir. Is t h a t I w a n t to
b e c o m f o r ta b le i n w h a t I a m g o i n g t o s a y b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s io n . S o

Page 125 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t h a t I c a n n o t th in k i t t w i c e i n E n g li s h , b e c a u s e I a m n o t c o n v e r s a n t i n
E n g l is h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u in d ic a t e i n t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u c a n r e a d

a n d u n d e r s t a n d E n g l is h . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s - M s In t e r p r e te r, a ff id a v it w i ll b e - s ta t e m e n t i s

( is i Z u lu w o r d ) .
I N T E R P R E T E R : O h . T h a n k s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In is i Z u l u . O k a y. A lr i g h t . A lr i g h t . L e t u s p r o c e e d .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r X , I w o u l d lik e t o p ic k i t
u p a t p a r a g r a p h 6 t h e n o n p a g e 2 . C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir
what …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y - m a y b e - I a m s o r r y. M a y b e b e fo r e h e - y o u g o
there.

M r X , a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y - to c o n fir m t h a t a l t h o u g h y o u r

a ffi d a v i t i s i n E n g li s h y o u u n d e r s ta n d e v e r y t h in g th a t y o u - t h a t i s
w r i t t e n in i t?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

20

O k a y.

I c a n r e a d a n d u n d e r s ta n d

E n g l is h .

T h e o n l y p r o b l e m is w h e n I a m s u p p o s e d t o s p e a k E n g l is h

myself.

T h a t i s w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m i s , b u t r e a d i n g a n d u n d e r s ta n d i n g

a n d h e a r in g E n g l is h C h a ir. I c a n u n d e r s t a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r X , p l e a s e c a n y o u t e ll u s
w h a t Is i b o n e lo C o n s tr u c ti o n C C is ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

M a y I c l a r i fy ?

Yo u m e a n w h a t w o r k o r

w h a t i s i t t h a t is d o n e i n th a t c o m p a n y o r t h a t C C ?

Page 126 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It is a c o n s tr u c ti o n c o m p a n y th a t b u il d s

houses.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t r o l e d o y o u p la y i n t h a t c o m p a n y -

t h a t Is ib o n e l o ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

I a m n o t s u r e if I a m r i g h t i f I s a y I a m

t h e o w n e r o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d I f u r th e r w o r k o n th e s i t e s u p p l y i n g s k i ll
- on the site.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Thank

you

and

when

was

Is i b o n e l o

e s t a b li s h e d ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I t w a s e s ta b l is h e d i n 1 9 9 7 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u r e v id e n c e h a s b e e n i t is i n v o l v e d i n

t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n i n d u s t r y a n d p a r t ic u l a r l y i n h o u s i n g . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t w o r k t h a t Is ib o n e l o h a s

d o n e p r e v i o u s ly f o r M h la t h u z e W a te r B o a r d ?
INTERPRETER: Can I get …?
CHAIRPERSON: Water Board.
I N T E R P R E T E R : C h a ir, I d id n o t h e a r p r o p e r l y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A s k h i m t o s t a r t a fr e s h .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : A t M h l a t h u z e W a t e r B o a r d I g o t t h e w o r k
t o s u p p l y - I a m n o t s u r e i f I a m c o r r e c t i f I c a l l i t ta n k - w a t e r t a n k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is - i t i s …
I N T E R P R E T E R : B u t h e r e f e r r e d t o i t a s J o jo Ta n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h e y a r e r e fe r r e d t o a s J o j o Ta n k s , j a .

Page 127 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
I N T E R P R E T E R : O k a y.
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : J o j o Ta n k s a t N k a n d l a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n w a s t h a t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I f I a m n o t m is ta k e n 2 0 0 7 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then at paragraph 10 on page 2 of the

a ffi d a v i t y o u t a l k a b o u t a p a r ti c u l a r i n v o i c e d a t e d 2 7 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .
W h a t d i d t h a t i n v o ic e r e la t e to ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M s In t e r p r e te r y o u
may well use paragraph …
10

I N T E R P R E T E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I a ls o d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e Z u l u w o r d is .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I w a s s u p p ly in g w a t e r o r J o j o Ta n k s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t h e v a l u e o f t h a t i n v o ic e - i f y o u
g o o v e r t h e p a g e to p a g e 3 ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : 2 5 0 1 5 1 i n c l u d i n g VAT.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e r e - w a s Is i b o n e l o p a id f o r th a t i n v o i c e ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

In d e e d s o .

I was paid.

Is ib o n e l o w a s

paid.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e l o o k a t t h a t i n v o i c e . Yo u w i ll fi n d i t
20

at page 30 of EXHIBIT DD27.
INTERPRETER: Page 30?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 3 - 0 .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I s e e i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h e w o r k th a t I s i b o n e l o d id r e l a t e d to
t h is in v o ic e ?

Page 128 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : W e s u p p li e d w a t e r t a n k s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e w e r e t h e y s u p p li e d ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : A t N k a n d l a u n d e r t h e C h i e f ta in S h a n g e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you and how did you come to be

a p p o i n t e d b y M h la t h u z e W a te r t o p r o v i d e t h e s e J o jo Ta n k s ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I w e n t a n d s p o k e t o M s My e n i . I to ld h e r
t h a t I d o n o t h a v e w o r k t h a t I w a s d o i n g a t t h a t ti m e . T h e y c a n h e lp m e
b y b e in g a b l e t o q u o te f o r w o r k t h a t I c a n d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A n d j u s t to b e c le a r f o r t h e r e c o r d is t h a t

M s D u d u z i le M y e n i ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d i d s h e h o ld a t t h e t i m e a t

t h e Wa t e r B o a r d ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

What I knew is that she was the

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e W a te r B o a r d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s H o f m e y r.

D id w e o v e r l o o k t o h a v e s o m e l e g a l

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s p la c e d o n r e c o r d o r n o t r e a l ly ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
W e ll t h e o n ly …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t r e a ll y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o , b e c a u s e in - t h e y a r e in a w a tc h i n g

c a p a c i ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

To d a y a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t .

Stock.

Page 129 of 156

O n l y f o r S t e f a n u t ti

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i n t h a t c a p a c it y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e n o t g e n e r a l ly p u t p e o p l e o n r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

If I can then move to

p a r a g r a p h 1 3 Mr X , b e c a u s e y o u t a l k i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h a b o u t y o u r
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M s M y e n i a t t h a t ti m e .

C a n y o u e x p l a i n th a t t o t h e

C h a ir p l e a s e ?
10

INTERPRETER: Paragraph 13?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: 1-3.
I N T E R P R E T E R : O k a y.
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
f o r a w h il e .

I k n e w h e r f o r - fr o m a v e r y l o n g ti m e -

The reason why I know her or we met.

We met through

w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h e r e a r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u r f a m il i e s ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
sort of became related.
20

W e g o t v e r y c lo s e to a n e x te n t t h a t w e

W h e n e v e r t h e r e w a s a n e v e n t o r a n y th i n g i n

h e r f a m il y I w o u l d g o t h e r e a n d v i c e v e r s a . S h e w o u l d a ls o c o m e t o m y
f a m ily.

S o o u r fr i e n d s h ip g r e w v e r y s tr o n g .

T h a t w e e n d e d u p li k e

r e l a ti v e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is - i s t h a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u a n d

M s My e n i a s t w o p e o p le o r is th a t th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u r f a m i ly
a n d M s My e n i ’s f a m ily ?

Page 130 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
I N T E R P R E T E R : Yo u m e a n b e t w e e n - s o r r y - C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e tw e e n t h e t w o f a m il i e s .
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Our relationship resulted in both our

f a m ili e s g e t ti n g c l o s e a s i f w e w e r e r e l a t iv e s .

S o w e b o n d e d - b o th

f a m ili e s b o n d e d a s r e la t iv e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r X , if y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 4 o f y o u r
a ffi d a v i t . Yo u w il l s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e p a y m e n t t h a t
y o u r e c e iv e d f r o m M h l a t h u z e a n d w h a t y o u d i d w i th t h e p r o c e e d s o f t h a t
p a y m e n t . C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n th a t to t h e C h a ir ?
10

M R X ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : W h a t h a p p e n e d i s I p l a c e d a n o r d e r a n d
t h e m o n e y w a s p a id i n to m y a c c o u n t . W i t h t h a t m o n e y I t h e n p a i d f o r
t h e J o jo Ta n k s a n d t h e n t h e r e m a i n in g m o n e y w a s th e n l e f t fo r m e , b u t I
p a i d fo r th e J o jo Ta n k s . T h e l i tt l e a m o u n t t h a t w a s r e m a i n i n g w a s l ik e
r e m a in in g fo r m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u s h a r e a n y o f t h o s e p r o c e e d s w it h
M s My e n i ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : N o . S h e d i d n o t a s k f o r a n y t h i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

T h e n I w o u ld l ik e t o m o v e t o t h e

n e x t t o p ic t h a t a p p e a r s i n a h e a d i n g o n p a g e 4 .
20

T h e h e a d i n g is t h e

“ M h l a t h u z e W a t e r Fu n d s ” .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I s e e th a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o n p a g e 4 y o u t a lk a b o u t

events that happened in early 15 - 2015.

C a n y o u p le a s e d e s c r i b e

those for us?
INTERPRETER:

C h a ir, m a y I a s k fo r c l a r i t y w h e n h e s a y s ( i s i Z u l u

Page 131 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
word).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : O k a y. 2 0 1 5 th e r e i s a fr i e n d o f m in e . I
k n o w h i m a l l t h e w a y fr o m - a t R i c h a r d s B a y. H e a p p r o a c h e d m e a n d
h e r e q u e s t e d to p a r t n e r w it h m e .

H e m e n ti o n e d t h a t h i m s e l f a n d h is

b o s s th e r e a r e f u n d s t h a t t h e y w a n t t o r e l e a s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w a s t h is p e r s o n .
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : H is n a m e is M b o n is e n i M a jo l a .
CHAIRPERSON: Just …
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e p e a t w h a t h e s a id t o y o u .

No.

Just repeat

w h a t y o u r fr i e n d s a i d t o y o u in - i n e a r ly 2 0 1 5 a b o u t m o n ie s o r fu n d s . I
think maybe (isiZulu word).
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : W h a t h e s a i d t o m e is t h a t h e is l o o k i n g
for a company and a person that can be trusted so that he and his boss
t h a t - b u t h e d i d n o t m e n t io n t h e n a m e o f th e b o s s - th a t t h e r e a r e
f u n d s t h a t t h e y w a n t t o r e l e a s e o r i n v e s t in a c o m p a n y.
INTERPRETER: I am not sure if I left.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t i n v e s t i n .
20

M R X : ( is i Z u l u ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
INTERPRETER: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e j u s t r e p e a t w h a t y o u - w h a t …
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r fr ie n d s a i d t o y o u o n t h a t o c c a s i o n .

Page 132 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

O k a y.

A c c o r d i n g to w h a t h e s a y s i n

t e r m s o f t h e la n g u a g e t h a t is u s e d i n t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n c o m p a n y. Is t h a t
t h e y h a v e a c o n s tr u c ti o n c o m p a n y o n s i te a t N s e z i , b u t t h e r e a r e f u n d s
t h a t th e y w a n t t o r e le a s e t h r o u g h t h i s c o m p a n y a n d t h e n t h i s c o m p a n y
w i ll p a y t h o s e f u n d s i n to m y c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u - d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u r fr ie n d w a s

s a y in g t o m e a n t h a t s o m e m o n e y w a s g o - t h e y w e r e g o in g t o p a y s o m e
m o n e y t o t h e ir c o m p a n y a n d t h e ir c o m p a n y w o u l d t h e n p a y t h a t m o n e y
in t o y o u r c o m p a n y ?
10

I N T E R P R E T E R : M e a n in g d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e m e a n t b y … ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : N o . T h e c o m p a n y i s n o t t h e ir c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay Mr X.

Ms - Mr X , ( is i Z u l u ) .

I have just asked

M r X to p le a s e e x p l a i n t o m e w h a t h is fr i e n d s a i d t o h i m . O k a y. O k a y.
A lr ig h t . S t o p th e r e .
M R X : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t o p t h e r e . Ar e y o u a b l e to tr a n s l a t e t h a t?
M R X ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

T h is g e n tl e m a n a p p r o a c h e d m e a n d h e

s a i d h e n e e d s s o m e o n e w h o is tr u s t w o r th y. T h e r e i s m o n e y t h a t th e y
w a n t to r e le a s e i n t o a c o m p a n y t h a t w il l b e p a id in t o m y c o m p a n y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Who did you understand was or where did you

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t m o n e y to c o m e fr o m - w a s g o in g to c o m e fr o m ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

He works for Mhlathuze.

So my

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h e c o m p a n y th a t w a s g o i n g t o g e t w o r k w a s g o i n g
t o w o r k - g e t w o r k a t M h l a t h u z e . S o w h a t w il l h a p p e n i s t h is c o m p a n y
t h a t g o t w o r k a t M h l a t u z e a n d I p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d C h a ir t h a t t h is fr ie n d

Page 133 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
o f m i n e is a n e n g i n e e r in g – is a n e n g i n e e r a t M h la t u z e , s o t h i s fr i e n d o f
m i n e i s g o in g t o p a y e x t r a o r m o r e m o n e y t o t h is c o m p a n y a n d t h e n th is
c o m p a n y w il l g iv e th e m o n e y t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t m o n e y w o u l d b e p a i d

b y M h l a t u z e W a te r B o a r d t o t h e c o m p a n y t h a t h e w a s ta lk in g to y o u
a b o u t a n d th a t c o m p a n y w o u ld th e n p a y t h e s a m e m o n e y i n to y o u r
company or a portion of that money?
MR X

( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Fr o m t h e w a y I u n d e r s t o o d h i m Yo u r

W o r s h i p I s a w i t t h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e e a s y b e c a u s e h e w a s g o in g t o
10

b e t h e o n e w h o is d o in g t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o r d o i n g t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t th e q u e s ti o n i s w h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d , d i d y o u

u n d e r s t a n d th a t M h l a tu z e Wa t e r B o a r d w o u l d p a y c e r t a i n f u n d s t o t h a t
c o m p a n y a n d t h a t c o m p a n y w a s g o i n g t o p a y o v e r th e s a m e a m o u n t to
y o u r c o m p a n y o r th a t , t h a t c o m p a n y w a s g o i n g t o p a y a p o r ti o n o f w h a t
it w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a i d o v e r t o y o u r c o m p a n y ?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

H e j u s t p u t a s t a te m e n t t o m e a s t o

h o w m u c h w a s g o in g t o b e – o r w h a t m o n e y w a s g o i n g t o b e p u t i n to m y
a c c o u n t , I d i d n ’ t k n o w b u t h e j u s t m a d e a s t a te m e n t t h a t m o n e y w il l b e
paid into my account.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, Mr H o f m e y r ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id M r M a j o l a – o h C h a ir, j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d I

d i d w a n t to s p e l l th e n a m e s i n , i t ’s M b o n is e n M a jo la , M r X w h e n M r
M a jo l a a p p r o a c h e d y o u a b o u t t h is , d i d h e e x p l a in w h y h e w a s
a p p r o a c h i n g y o u … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a s h e t o l d u s i t w a s M r M a jo la ?

Page 134 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

I think he did.

I didn’t hear that.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I a s k e d w h o t h e fr ie n d w a s .

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O h o k a y, o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, s o t h e q u e s t io n w a s , d i d h e

e x p l a i n to y o u w h y h e w a s a p p r o a c h i n g y o u ?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ) :

H e is a r e s p e c t e d m a n t h e r e i n

R i c h a r d ’s B a y a n d s o I d id n o t a s k h i m t h e r e a s o n w h y h e a p p r o a c h e d
10

me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e p r e v io u s ly, M r X ,

t o b e t h a t h e d i d s a y t h a t h e tr u s te d y o u , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s th a t i s tr u e .

A n d Mr X h o w d i d t h is s c h e m e th a t M r M a j o l a

d is c u s s e d w it h y o u , h o w d id h e e x p l a in it w a s g o i n g to w o r k ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I d i d n o t a s k h i m b e c a u s e h e ’s m o r e

e d u c a t e d t h a n m e a n d h is p o s i ti o n a s w e l l t h a t h e ’s o c c u p y i n g a t w o r k ,
s o I d id n o t a s k h i m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

If w e g o o v e r th e p a g e , w e w e r e a t p a g e 4 M r

X , i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e – w e l l l e t m e p i c k i t u p f ir s t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7
t h e r e , b e c a u s e y o u s t a r t to e x p la in t h e r e h o w i n v o ic i n g w a s g o i n g t o b e
d e a lt w i t h , w h a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e – ju s t o n e s e c M s H o f m e y r, w h a t w a s y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g Mr X o f w h y i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t h a t m o n e y p a id t o t h e
p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y t h a t M r M a j o la t a lk e d t o y o u a b o u t , s h o u l d b e p a id

Page 135 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
t o y o u r c o m p a n y, w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o w h y i t w a s
n e c e s s a r y t o h a v e th is a r r a n g e m e n t ?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

H o n e s tl y C h a i r I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

P l e a s e r e p e a t y o u r a n s w e r, a s k h i m t o r e p e a t h i s

answer?
M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

H e w a s r e q u e s ti n g m e to r e c e iv e t h i s

m o n e y f o r h i m b u t i t w a s n o t e a s y fo r m e t o a s k h i m w h y w a s i t
n e c e s s a r y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u a s k h i m o r y o u d id n o t a s k h i m w h y s o m e

m o n e y n e e d e d t o b e p a i d t o y o u r c o m p a n y fr o m t h i s o t h e r c o m p a n y w i t h
w h ic h y o u h a d n o th in g to d o ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

W e ll I d i d a s k h i m a s to w h e t h e r t h e y

w o u ld g iv e m e d o c u m e n t s to g o a n d u p g r a d e m y s t a n d a r d a t C I B B s o
w h a t a c t u a ll y m a d e m e h a p p y a b o u t t h is m o n e y w a s to g e t t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty to g o a n d u p g r a d e t h e s ta g e a t C I B B .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e y o u g o i n g to u s e th a t m o n e y t o u p g r a d e t h e

s t a tu s o f y o u r c o m p a n y ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
20

Not money as such but CIBB looked at

t h e v a lu e o f t h e w o r k t h a t y o u h a v e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t w h a t I w a n t t o fi n d o u t i s , w h e t h e r y o u h a d a n

u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o w h y Mr M a j o la w a s g e tt i n g y o u r c o m p a n y i n v o l v e d
in t h is a r r a n g e m e n t?
M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

W e l l i t d i d n o t c r o s s m y m in d th a t I a s k

h i m a s t o w h y is h e in v o lv in g m e o r my c o m p a n y i n th is .

Page 136 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d h e e x p la in t o y o u a t th a t s t a g e , w h e n h e s p o k e

t o y o u f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e , a b o u t t h is a r r a n g e m e n t w h a t y o u w e r e
s u p p o s e d to d o w i t h t h e m o n e y o n c e i t h a d b e e n p a id i n t o y o u r
company?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:
MR X

Ye s I d id a s k h i m th a t q u e s t io n .

And what did he say?

( t hr o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

H e t h e n s a i d t o m e h e w i ll g iv e m e

a n o t h e r a c c o u n t n u m b e r w h e r e I ’ m s u p p o s e d t o d e p o s i t th is m o n e y to .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

And was your understanding that you were going to

p a s s t h e w h o l e a m o u n t t h a t y o u r c o m p a n y r e c e iv e d o v e r i n to th e
a c c o u n t t h a t h e w o u l d g iv e y o u ?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

W e ll w h a t I a s k e d h i m w a s a b o u t , i f

t h e r e ’s m o n e y d e p o s i t e d i n t o a c o m p a n y ’s a c c o u n t th e r e ’s VAT s o I
n e e d t o l e a v e m o n e y f o r VAT i n o r d e r to b e a b l e t o p a y f o r VAT.

So

t h a t ’s t h e e n q u i r y I m a d e to h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k h e s a id h e a s k e d h i m w h e t h e r h e k n e w

t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
MR X

( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) :

O h h e k n e w w h e t h e r t h e r e s h o u ld b e

m o n e y fo r VAT p a y m e n t y e s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u , M s H o f m e y r I t h i n k a t le a s t t h e r e ’s

b e e n s o m e c l a r i fic a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In d e e d I’ m in d e b t e d C h a ir. Mr X w h a t w a s t h e

a r r a n g e m e n t a b o u t th e VAT t h a t y o u r a is e d w i t h M r M a jo la ?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ) :

H e d i d p r o m is e th a t a s s o o n a s th e

m o n e y is d e p o s i te d i n t o m y a c c o u n t , w e w ill t h e n d e d u c t t h e m o n e y fo r

Page 137 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
VAT p a y m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w a s i t t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t Is ib o n e l o

w o u ld th e n r e t a i n t h e VAT a m o u n t a n d t h e r e m a i n d e r w o u l d b e p a i d
over?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d i d y o u k n o w th e c o m p a n i e s fr o m w h o m

y o u w e r e r e c e iv i n g t h e f u n d s o r t h e c o m p a n i e s t o w h o m y o u w e r e
paying the funds?
MR X
10

( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) :

N o h e d i d n o t m e n t io n w h o a r e t h e

o w n e r s o f t h o s e c o m p a n ie s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d i d Is i b o n e l o e v e r r e n d e r s e r v ic e s t o t h e

c o m p a n i e s fr o m w h o m i t r e c e iv e d t h e s e p a y m e n ts ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o I ’v e n e v e r d o n e a n y w o r k fo r t h e m .

And when Isibonelo paid monies to the

c o m p a n i e s th a t Mr M a jo la g a v e t h e d e t a ils o f , h a d th o s e c o m p a n ie s
e v e r r e n d e r e d s e r v ic e s t o I s i b o n e lo ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No they didn’t.

T h a n k y o u , I’ d t h e n l ik e t o p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 4

a g a in , b e c a u s e a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 4 in p a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u e x p la i n
20

h o w t h e in v o ic in g w a s g o i n g t o w o r k . C a n y o u t e ll u s h o w i n v o i c i n g w a s
handled?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) : W h e n ti m e c o m e s f o r u s to s u b m i t o r – ja
p u t in t h e i n v o ic e , h e w o u ld c o m e t o m y o ffic e s t o g e t h e r w i t h m y
s e c r e t a r y h e w o u l d t h e n a s s is t m y s e c r e ta r y t o c r e a t e th e i n v o ic e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Wa s t h e i n v o i c e fi c t i ti o u s ?

Page 138 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

B e c a u s e I w a s n o t i n t h e s id e I w o u l d

n o t k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e r e s o h e w o u ld b r i n g t h e s c o p e o f
work himself.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Wa s t h e s c o p e o f w o r k th a t w a s i n c lu d e d o n

t h e in v o ic e w o r k t h a t Is i b o n e l o a c tu a l ly d i d ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o I ’v e n e v e r d o n e i t .

If w e t h e n g o t o p a g e 5 M r X , in th e fir s t

p a r a g r a p h o n t h a t p a g e y o u s e t o u t t h e c o n c e r n y o u r a is e d i n r e l a t i o n
t o VAT b u t y o u ’v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d a b o u t t h a t .
10

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

I’ d li k e t o a s k a b o u t t h e d is c o m f o r t t h a t y o u

d e s c r ib e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 t h a t y o u c o n v e y e d t o M r M a j o l a w h e n h e h a d
t h is c o n v e r s a t i o n w i th y o u , c a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t c o n c e r n y o u
raised with him?
M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Yo u m e a n t h e i s s u e t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g

a b o u t r i g h t a w a y … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e le t ’s p u t i t t h is w a y, a t s o m e s t a g e y o u w o u l d

h a v e – d i d y o u b e g i n to i m p l e m e n t t h e s c h e m e th a t M r M a j o l a
in tr o d u c e d to y o u ?
20

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) : W o u l d y o u p l e a s e r e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u , a t s o m e s t a g e , b e g i n to i m p l e m e n t t h e

a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t M r M a jo la in tr o d u c e d t o y o u ?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

M e a n i n g r e c e iv i n g t h e m o n e y o n h is

behalf?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d p a y i n g i t o v e r t o a n o t h e r c o m p a n y.

Page 139 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I d id .

H o w d i d y o u f e e l a b o u t p l a y in g t h i s r o l e i n r e g a r d t o

t h is a r r a n g e m e n t?
M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

At that stage I wanted to see me as a

p e r s o n t h a t c a n b e t r u s t e d o r c a n b e tr u s t w o r t h y t o h i m b u t it ’s d i ff e r e n t
n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m w h e n t o w h e n d i d y o u p a r ti c i p a t e i n t h is

a r r a n g e m e n t?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ) : T h o u g h I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e m o n t h a n d
10

t h e d a t e s p r e c is e ly b u t t h e y e a r i s b e t w e e n 2 0 1 3 h e f u r t h e r s a id 2 0 1 4
to 2016.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h r o u g h o u t t h a t p e r i o d h o w d id y o u f e e l a b o u t

p l a y in g t h e r o l e t h a t M r M a jo l a h a d a s k e d y o u t o p l a y i n t h i s
a r r a n g e m e n t?
MR X

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

W h a t h a p p e n e d is , w h e n th e y w e r e

d e a li n g w i t h t h e s e m o n i e s i t w il l b e b e t w e e n m y s e c r e t a r y a n d h i ms e l f
a n d i t h a p p e n e d i n m y o ffic e a n d w h e n t h e r e ’s m o n e y c o m i n g in – th e
m o n e y w o u ld c o m e i n a t t h e s t a g e w h e n I d o n o t h a v e m o n e y a n d I
w o u ld n o t h a v e m o n e y s ti ll w h e n I e v e n s a w t h a t th e r e w a s m o n e y t h a t
20

c a m e in .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u s a y y o u d id n ’ t f e e l g o o d a b o u t i t w h e n t h i s

m o n e y c a m e a t a ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e b r o k e ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ye s v e r y m u c h s o .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e r e y o u c o m f o r ta b l e p l a y in g t h i s r o l e t h r o u g h o u t
t h e p e r i o d fr o m a r o u n d 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 t o 2 0 1 6 ?

Page 140 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR X

( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I d id n o t g e t t h e fi r s t p a r t C h a ir.

I

d e c i d e d t o l e t i t c o n t in u e h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e s h o u ld I r a i s e a n y c o n c e r n
o r d is c o m f o r t a b o u t i t to h i m it w il l b e , lik e , I’ m b e in g je a lo u s , lik e b l a c k
p e o p l e b e in g j e a l o u s o f e a c h o t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y Ms H o f m e y r I w a s tr y i n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e

e x tr a c t th e i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m h i m i n r e l a ti o n to t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m not sure if I succeeded.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

I n d e e d C h a ir.

W e l l I ’ m c e r t a i n l y i n d e b t e d t o y o u f o r th a t . M r

X , I k n o w th a t t h e C h a ir h a s a s k e d a f e w q u e s t io n s a r o u n d th is t o p i c , I
w o u ld lik e , j u s t , o n e f in a l q u e s ti o n in r e la t i o n t o i t . A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e
a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t y o u ’v e d e s c r ib e d , y o u r c o m p a n y w o u l d b e p a i d m o n e y
f o r w o r k i t d i d n o t d o a n d th e n i t w o u ld p a y o u t a p o r t i o n o f t h a t m o n e y,
le s s t h e VAT p o r ti o n t o c o m p a n i e s w i t h w h o m it d i d n o t h a v e a
r e l a ti o n s h i p , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I c a n h e a r h i m .

L e t ’s s ta r t a fr e s h , le t M s H o f m e y r s t a r t , I t h i n k h e

w o u ld lik e th e q u e s t io n r e p e a t e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

C e r t a i n l y, M r X th is a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h M r

M a jo l a , a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t , i n v o lv e d y o u r c o m p a n y b e i n g p a i d m o n i e s
f o r w o r k i t d id n o t d o a n d t h e n y o u r c o m p a n y b e in g r e q u i r e d t o p a y a
p o r t i o n o f t h a t m o n ie s t o o t h e r c o m p a n ie s t h a t i t h a d n o r e l a ti o n s h i p
w i t h , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

T h e r e is a n i m p o r ta n t p a r t th a t y o u l e f t o ff M s

Page 141 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
I n t e r p r e te r, t h a t i s h is c o m p a n y w a s b e i n g m o n e y fo r w o r k it d i d n o t d o .
INTERPRETER:

I a p o l o g i s e s ir.

M R X ( t hr o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ) :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r i t w o u l d b e p a i d

m o n i e s f o r th e w o r k t h a t i t d i d n o t d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u r e g a r d i t a s w r o n g to r e c e iv e t h o s e

monies for work you did not do?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

T h o u g h I d i d n o t lo o k a t it t h e w a y y o u

a r e p u t t in g i t t o m e n o w, b u t t o m e I s a w i t a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o a s k h i m
t o t a k e m e to t h e s i t e f o r e x p e r i e n c e a n d h e p r o m is e d to t a k e m e t h e r e ,
10

h e k e p t o n p r o m i s i n g t o ta k e m e t o t h e s i t e to g e t e x p e r i e n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id h e e v e r d o t h a t?

M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

N o h e k e p t o n p o s t p o n in g i t th a t h e w il l

c a l l m e , h e w i ll c a l l m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W a s t h e r e a n y o n e e ls e p r e s e n t w i th y o u w h e n

y o u h a d t h is d is c u s s i o n w i th M r M a j o l a ?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And did you tell anyone about it afterwards?

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

I’ m a m a n w h o ’s a b l e t o k e e p s e c r e ts .

W a s th is a r r a n g e m e n t a s e c r e t ?

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no-one.

W h y n o t?

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o i t w a s j u s t th e tw o o f u s .

I t w a s j u s t b e t w e e n th e t w o o f u s .

W a s i t a s e c r e t?

M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

At that stage yes, it was a secret that I

s h o u l d n o t t e ll a n y o n e e ls e a b o u t i t .

Page 142 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a r e y o u a b le t o s a y t h a t M r M a j o l a a ls o

r e g a r d e d t h i s a r r a n g e m e n t a s a s e c r e t b e t w e e n th e tw o o f y o u ?
M R X ( t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I th i n k t h e t w o o f u s w e r e i n v o lv e d i n a n

a c ti v i ty t h a t w e d i d n o t k n o w h o w i t w a s g o in g to e n d u p .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h e q u e s ti o n i s , w h e th e r, a s f a r a s y o u k n o w, M r

M a jo l a a l s o r e g a r d e d i t a s a s e c r e t b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u , n a m e l y t h i s
a r r a n g e m e n t?
M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

I th i n k s o , I th in k h e w a s a ls o r e g a r d i n g

it a s a s e c r e t.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r X , I ’d l ik e t o n o w g o i n t o th e d e t a i l o f o n e o f
t h e s e s e ts o f tr a n s a c t io n s . C h a ir w h a t I p r o p o s e to d o i n th e e v i d e n c e
is g o t o o n e o r t w o o f t h e tr a n s a c t i o n s fo r w h ic h t h e r e a r e r e c o r d s b u t I
d o s o b e a r i n g i n mi n d th a t M r X h a s c o n fi r me d t h e f u l l c o n t e n t s o f t h e
a ffi d a v i t u n d e r o a t h t o d a y a n d h e ’s c o n s i d e r e d i t p r io r t o t o d a y. S o i t ’s
n o t m y i n t e n t io n t o t a k e h i m t o e v e r y o n e b u t t o ta k e h i m t o a f e w t h a t
w i ll h i g h li g h t t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s b e in g f o l lo w e d b u t I d o s o w i t h y o u r
le a v e , i f t h e r e ’s a n e e d a t a n y p o i n t t o b e m o r e d e t a il e d I ’ m h a p p y t o d o
so.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k w e s h o u l d m e n ti o n a ll o f t h e m e v e n i f y o u

d o n ’t e l a b o r a t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d it , th e b a s is o f t h e

tr a n s a c ti o n w a s th e s a m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Indeed.

Page 143 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t s h o u l d g o q u i t e q u ic k .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Indeed.

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t I p r o p o s e t o d o is s p e n d q u i t e a b i t o f

ti m e o n th e f ir s t o n e , th e n w e c a n ju s t r e c o r d a l l o f t h e r e m a i n in g w i th
your leave.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t w il l b e in o r d e r b u t b e f o r e y o u d o th a t M r X

d i d y o u s a y t h a t y o u d id n ’t s e e t h i s a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d
Mr Majola as wrong?
10

M R X ( t hr o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :
CHAIRPERSON:
MR X

I d i d s e e it a s s o m e th i n g w r o n g .

W h y d id y o u s e e i t a s w r o n g ?

( t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ) :

I t w a s s c a r y, t h o u g h I d id n o t k n o w

e x a c tl y h o w t h e t r a n s a c t io n w e r e g o in g t o t a k e – o r h o w it w a s g o in g t o
h a p p e n , t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s , b u t b y ju s t th in k i n g o r h e a r i n g a b o u t i t , it w a s
s c a r y.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u s a id th a t w h e n Mr M a jo la s p o ke to y o u fo r th e fir s t

time a b o u t th is a r r a n g e me n t, h e to ld y o u th a t th is a r r a n g e men t w a s
s o me th in g th a t h e a n d h is b o s s wa n te d , is th a t r ig h t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

Be fo r e

Th a t is c o r r ec t.

you

s ta r te d ,

b e fo r e

th e

a r r a n g e me n t

was

imp le me n te d d id y o u g e t to k n o w w h o h is b os s w as ?
MR X ( t hr ough i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

N o , I n e v e r g o t th e o p p o r tu n ity to k n o w

w h o it w a s b e c a u s e th e r e th e y w o u ld c h an g e , h e r e fe r r e d to th e m a s
C O O ’s e v e ry n o w a n d th e n s o y o u w o u ld n o t k n o w w h o e x a c tly it w a s , s o I
d id n o t g e t th e o p p o r tu n ity to k n o w.

Page 144 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A IR PER SO N:

D id y o u k n o w th e p o s iti o n th a t w a s o c c u p ie d b y th e

p e r s on th a t Mr Ma jo la s a id w a s h is b o ss ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

H e w a s n o t r e p o r tin g d ir ec tly to th e C O O .

Th e r e w as a n o th e r pe r so n s o th e r e w e r e two p e o p le th a t h e w a s r ep o r tin g
to b u t n o t d ir e c tly to th e C O O .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u h a v e r e fe r r ed to C O O o r C EO ? C EO o r C O O ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e o n e in th e s e n io r p os itio n , it is C EO .

O k a y, n o w d id y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t th e b o s s th a t

Mr Ma jo la w a s ta lk in g a bo u t w a s so me bo d y w h o w a s oc c up y in g th e
10

p o s itio n o f C EO ? Wa s th a t y o u r u n d er s ta n din g ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

H e d id n o t s p e c ify ex ac tly w h o w a s th e

b o s s . I c o n c lu d ed th a t it w a s th e C EO .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , d id y o u a t a n y s ta ge a fte r th e c o mme n c e me n t o f

th e imp le me n ta tio n o f th is a r r a n g e me n t c ome to k n o w w h o th e b o s s w as
th a t Mr Ma jo la w a s ta lk in g a b o u t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , I d id n o t e v e n b o th e r to a sk h im.

As y o u te s tify to d a y, do y o u kn o w w h o th a t b os s w as

th a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , I d o n o t k n o w.

Th a n k y o u Mis s H o fme yr.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u Ch a ir. Mr X a t p a g e 5 p a ra g r ap h 1 9

y o u d e a l in th e s ec o n d h a lf o f th a t p a ra g r a p h a b o u t s o me th ing th a t
Mr Ma jo la s a id r e g a r d in g th e tr u s t th a t th e y p u t in y o u to d o th is . D o y o u
s e e th a t?
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ma y b e Mis s H o fmey r sh o u ld ju s t r ea d th e r e lev a n t

Page 145 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
s e n te n ce o r s e n te nc e s a nd th e n s h e c a n in te r p r e t?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , le t me d o th a t . I a m r e a d in g n o w fr o m th e

s ix th lin e o f p a r a g r a ph 1 9 a n d w h a t is r ec o rd e d th e r e is ,
“H e , th a t is a r e fe r e n c e to Mr Ma jo la , fu r th e r
in d ic a te d th a t I a m th e o n ly p e r s o n th e y c an tr u s t to
p u ll th is th r o u g h .”
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , I s e e th e p a r a g ra p h .

D o y o u r ec a ll Mr Ma jo la s a y ing th a t s p e c ific a lly

to y o u in y o u r c o nv e rs a tio n ?
10

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , I d o .

D id y o u e n q u ir e a t a n y p o in t w h o th e ‘ th e y ’ w a s

w h o h e w as r e fe r r ing to ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

Fr o m th e w a y I u n d e r s to o d h im, h e w a s n o t

a lo n e in th is s c h e me , b u t h e d id n o t w a n t to me n tio n th e o th e r p e o p le ’s
n a me s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u a n d a t a n y p o in t d id yo u c o me to

le a r n w h o th e y we r e ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

We ll, th e r e w a s a time w h e n th in g s w e re

g e ttin g lik e s e r iou s ba d , th e n I w a s a ls o lik e w as in s is tin g to g e t th e
20

d o c u me n ts to th is w h o le p r o jec t.

I w a s a s k ing h im to g iv e me th e

d o c u me n ts a n d a t th a t s ta g e I d o b e lie v e t h a t y o u w e r e n o w in v o lv e d in
th is b e c a us e h e w a s s a y in g th e r e ar e o r th er e is a g ro u p o r a g a n g th a t is
ta lk in g to s o me W h ite p e o p le a b o u t th is , an d I w a s a ls o ins is tin g th a t h e
g iv e s me d o c u me n ts to th is p r o je c t, b u t h e w o u ld th e n , a t th a t s ta g e h e
w o u ld me n tio n n a me s .

Page 146 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
IN TER PR ETER :

Ye s I in te r p r e te d c o r r ec tly.

C H A IR PER SO N:

J a o k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

C a n I ju s t c la r ify fo r my o w n p u r p os es ?

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Is th a t a r e fe r e n c e to e n g a g e me n ts w ith th e

C o mmis s ion ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

C o r r e c t.

So – s o w h e n y o u sa y yo u w e re a sk in g Mr Ma jo la for

d o c u me n ts a nd y o u sa y y ou w e r e a lr ea d y in v o lv e d y ou me a n th e
10

C o mmis s ion w a s in vo lv e d in in ve s tig a tin g th is a n d y o u w er e a w ar e o f it?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a t is e x a c tly w h a t I a m e x p la in in g C h a ir.

Th a n k y o u , I th e n l ik e to mo v e o v e r to p a g e 6 if

w e c a n , s u b jec t to a n y fu r th e r q u e s tio n s fr o m th e C h a ir, b u t th is is w h e r e
w e s ta r t to g e t in to th e d e ta il o f th e in v o ic in g a n d th e p r o c e ss . So Mr X i f
w e g o , fir s t o f a ll, to th e in v o ic e th a t th e C o mmis s io n s In ve s tig a to r
s h o we d y o u o n th e 1 5 J a nu a ry, s o r ry h e d id n o t s h o w it to y o u o n th e
1 5 J a n u ar y 2 0 1 5 , it is a n in v o ic e d a te d 1 5 J a n u a ry 2 0 1 5 , a n d th a t y o u w ill
fin d a t p a g e 3 2 , th r e e tw o o f Ex h ib it D D ( 3 1 ) .
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h a t is th is d o c u me n t?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MR X

( t hr ough

Ye s , I a m th e r e .

I t is th e in v o ic e fr o m my o ffic e .

An d w h o is it ma d e o u t to ?

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

It

is

an

C o n s tr uc tio n , p a id o u t to C lo ma x En g in e e r ing .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I – I th in k [in te r v e n e s ].

Page 147 of 156

in v o ic e

fr o m

Is ib o n e lo

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
C H A IR PER SO N:

C lo ma c k , ma d e to ja .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u a n d w h a t is th e a mo u n t o f th e

in v o ic e?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

R 2 9 4 0 0 0 .0 0 [in te r v e n e s ].

I th in k Mis s H o fme y r y ou ju s t h a v e to s a y th e a mo u n t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I c a n s e e it is n o t p a r tic u la r ly c le a r o n th is p a g e .

Th e r e a p p ea r s to b e a n in vo ic e a mo un ts w ith o u t VAT o f 2 .1 millio n r a n d .
. Th e n th e r e is a ta x e s lin e w h ic h I r e a d a s R 2 9 4 0 0 0 .0 0 a n d th e n I th in k
th e to ta l in th e b lo c k a t th e b o tto m is r e fle c t e d a s R 2 3 9 4 0 0 0 .0 0 . Is th a t
10

c o r re c t Mr X?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s . I s e e th o s e a mo u n ts .

An d c a n y ou te ll u s w h a t th e d es cr ip tio n o f th e

Wo r ks is o n th is in v o ic e , w h a t w e r e yo u to ld to in c lu d e ? W h a t w a s th e
d e s cr ip tio n o f th e Wo r k s , le t u s s ta r t th e r e .
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

L ik e I s a id i n itia lly th e s c o p e o f w o r k h e

w o u ld b r in g th e sc o p e o f w o rk w ith h im.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d h o w w o u ld th is in v o ic e b e g e n er a te d ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

H e w o u ld c o me a n d fe tc h it fr o m my o ffic e .

An d h o w w o u ld y o u b e to ld w h a t w o r k to in c lu d e

in it?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

H e w o u ld c o me w ith a p ie c e o f p a p e r w ith

th e d e s c r ip tio n o f w h a t is to b e c o n ta in e d o n th e a n d g iv e i t, a n d th e n
g iv e it to my Se c r e ta r y, th e n my Se c r e ta r y w ill ju s t h a v e to c o p y w h a t is
o n th e p ie c e o f p a p e r a n d w r ite it o n th e in v o ic e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

At th e time o f t h is in v o ic e , w h ich w a s th e

Page 148 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
1 5 J a n u ar y 2 0 15 , h a d y o u e v er me t a n y o n e fr o m C lo ma c En g in e e r in g?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

N o , I h a v e n e v e r me t a n yo n e I d o n o t e v e n

k n o w th e m.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e d e s c r ip tion th a t a p p e a r s o n th is in v o ic e

s e e ms to in d ic a te th e r e is a lin e ite m fo r P ’s a n d G ’s , th e r e is a lin e ite m
fo r C r a n e in s t. An d I th in k th a t is s u p p o se d to b e s h o r t fo r in s ta lla tio n
a n d c o mmis s io n . Th e r e is a lin e ite m fo r r o a d s u r fa c in g . A lin e ite m fo r
Ma n h o le s a n d a lin e i te m fo r e le c tr ific a tio n . D id Is ib o n e lo c o n d uc t a n y o f
th e w o r k
10

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , n o n e o f t h e m.

An d th e r e a p p e a rs to b e a s ta mp o n th is p a g e

r e fle c tin g Mh la tu s e Wa te r, is th a t c o r r e c t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , I s e e th e s ta mp .

H o w w o u ld th a t s ta mp b e a p p lie d to th e in v o ic e ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

W h e n th is in v o ic e le ft my o ffic e th e r e w a s

n o s ta mp o n it. Th e f ir s t time I s a w th a t th e r e is n o w a s ta mp o n th is
in v o ic e it w a s w he n I w a s a p p ro a c he d b y the C o mmis s io n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D o y o u k n o w Mr Majo la ’s s ig n a tu r e ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , I d o n o t.

Th a n k y o u .

Is th e r e a n y o f th o s e tw o s ig n a tu r e s th a t a r e o n th a t

s ta mp a t p a g e 3 2 th a t y o u a r e a b le to id e n ti fy ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , n o n e , I d o n o t r e c o g n ise a n y.

O k a y, y o u o bv io u s ly k n ew y o u r Sec r e ta ry ’s s ig na tu r e ,

b u t I a m s a y in g o b v io u s ly, ma y b e I s h o u ld n o t s a y o b v io u s ly. D id y o u , d o

Page 149 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
y o u , a r e y o u a b le to id e n tify y o u r Se cr e ta r ies s ig n a tu r e?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , I d o , I k n o w it.

H e r s ig n a tu r e is n o t o n e o f th e s e ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , i t is n o n e o f th e m .

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , Mr X I w o u ld th e n lik e to u n d er s ta n d

p r e c is e ly h ow th is in v o ice w o u ld b e g e ne r ate d . Yo u in d ic a te d p r e v io us ly
in y o u r te s timo n y th e r e w o u ld b e s o me in te ra c tio n b e tw e e n Mr Ma jo la a n d
y o u r Se cr e ta r y. Is th a t c o r r e c t?
10

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Wo u ld y o u p le a s e r e pe a t th e q u e s tio n ?

Ye s , I a m, i t is a p r e fa c e to u n d e rs ta n d in g h ow

th e p r o c es s wo r ke d a n d I u n d er s to o d fr o m MR X’s p r e v io us te s timo n y th a t
th e r e w o u ld b e s o me in te r a c tio n b e tw e e n Mr Ma jo la a n d h is Se c r e ta r y. Is
th a t c o r r e c t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C o r r e c t.

An d h o w d id th a t w o r k ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

Mr Ma jo la w o u ld th e n in te r a c t w ith my

Se c r e ta ry lik e I h a v e s a id . H e wo u ld c o me w ith a p ie c e o f p a p er w ith th e
a mo u n t a n d th e s c o p e o f w o r k , g iv e it t o my s e c r e ta r y a n d th e n my
20

s e cr e ta r y w o u ld th e n g iv e th e in vo ic e th e n e x t n u mb e r a n d g en e r a te it
u s in g th e p iec e o f p a p er th a t w a s g iv e n to h e r b y Mr Ma jo la , a n d Mr
Ma jo la w ill a ll th e time s ta n d n e x t to my s e c r e ta ry a s s he is g e n e r a tin g
th e in v o ic e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n a fte r th e in v o ic e is

g e n e r a te d?

Page 150 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

H e w ill th e n l e a v e w ith th e in v o ic e .

An d w h a t d o y o u u n d e rs ta n d h e w ou ld th e n d o

w ith th e in v o ic e ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

My u n d e r s ta n d in g is th a t h e w a s ta k in g it

to th e p e o p le th a t h e w a s w o r k in g , th e W h ite p e o p le th a t h e w a s w or k in g
w ith fr o m C lo ma c . Th a t w a s my u n d e rs ta n d in g o f it.
C H A IR PER SO N:

I a m s o r r y. D id y o u u n de r s ta n d th a t th e r e w e r e , s o me

p e o p le th a t h e w a s w or k in g w ith in r e g a r d to th is p r o je c t, in r e g a r d to th is
a r r a ng e me n t?
10

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

Th a t is c o rr e c t.

Th e a r r a n g e me n t w a s

a c c or d in g to th e w a y I u n d e r s to o d it, it w a s b e tw e e n h ims e lf a n d C lo ma c
En g in e e r in g .
C H A IR PER SO N:

So , a r e y o u s ay in g th a t y o u u n d e rs to o d th a t h e w a s , h e

w o u ld ta k e th e in v o ice to C lo ma c ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

Ma y b e b e fo r e Mis s H o fme y r p r oc e ed s , if y o u lo o k a t

th e in v o ic e a t p a ge 3 2 th e r e is a b r e ak d own o f w h a t th e v a r io us a mo u n ts
a r e fo r o n th a t p a g e , d o y o u s e e th a t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

N o w d id y o u s a y th a t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n Mr Ma jo la w h o

w r o te th e a mo u n ts th a t a r e c la ime d in th a t i n v o ic e , in d iv idu a l a mo u n ts a s
w e ll a s th e d iffe r e n t ite ms o f th e wo r k th a t w a s pu t in th e in v o ic e as w or k
th a t Is ib o n e lo C o n s tr uc tio n h a d d o n e ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a t is c o r r ec t.

Th a n k y o u .

Page 151 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , a n d th e n I w o u ld lik e to ta k e y o u n e x t

to y o u r b a n k s ta te me n t, w e ll a t le a s t th e b a n k s ta te me n t o f Is ib o n e lo ,
Mr X, a n d y o u w ill fin d th a t a t p a g e 3 4 , Ex h i b it D D ( 3 1 ) .
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , I a m th e r e .

Th a n k y o u , c a n y o u c o n fir m th a t th is is a b a n k

s ta te me n t fr o m th e a c c o u n t o f Is ib o n e lo ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , it is .

An d y o u w ill s e e th e r e is a b a la n ce b r o u gh t

fo r w a r d a t th e to p lin e u n d e r th e in tr o d u c to r y p a r t o f th a t d o c u me n t th a t
10

s e e ms to r e fle c t R 2 2 1 6 8 .0 2 , d o y o u s e e tha t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , I s e e it.

An d w h a t is th e n e x t lin e in d ic a tin g o n th a t

page?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , c o r r ec t.

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h e r e th e r e is a h ig h lig h t?

Th is is a v e r y b ig n u mb e r, a mo u n t s o .

N o , in d e e d , w e ll fir s t o f a ll I a m in te r e s te d in th e

le ft h a n d s id e o f th e p ag e , w h o it in d ic a tes th e r e pa id th a t a mo u n t in to
th e a c c o u n t?
20

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C lo ma c En g in e r in g C C , ja .

An d th e n th a t a mo u n t a p p e a rs to ac c or d w ith th e

a mo u n t o f th e in v o ic e th a t w e lo ok e d a t – a t p a g e 3 2 b e ca u se th e in v o ic e
a mo u n t a t p a g e 3 2 is R 2 3 9 4 0 0 0 .0 0 a n d it a p p e a r s n e x t to C lo ma c
En g in e e r in g o n th e le ft o f y o u r b a n k s ta te me n t, a n d a mo u n t o f
R 2 3 9 4 0 0 0 .0 0 w as p a id , is th a t c o r r e c t?

Page 152 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a t is c o r r ec t.

An d w h a t h a p p e ne d a fte r Is ib o n e lo r e ce iv e d

th e s e a mo u n ts , th e s e p a y me n ts , w h a t d id y ou d o ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

I th e n w a ite d fo r h is in s tr u c tio n o n w h a t is

to b e d o n e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h o is h e ?

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ib o n is e la Ma jo la .

We c a n r e tu r n Mr X to y o u r a ffid a v it b e c a u s e a t

p a g e 7 o f th a t a ff id a v it y o u d e ta il w h a t th e n tr a n s p ir e d .
10

Yo u s a y a t

p a r a gr a p h 2 9 o f th a t p a g e th a t y o u in fo r me d Mr Ma jo la th a t y o u h a v e
r e c e iv e d th e fu n ds fr o m C lo mac En g in e erin g a n d h e ga v e me a b a nk
a c c ou n t th r o u g h a h a n d w r itte n n o te th r o u g h w h ic h I h a d to p a y th e fu n d s ,
is th a t c o r r e c t?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :

O k a y I o mitte d to me n tio n th a t I p h o n e d

h im to in fo r m h im th a t th e mo n e y is n o w in to my b a n k a cc o un t. So th a t is
th e p a r t C h a ir th a t I h a v e o mitte d to me n tio n , th a t I p h o n e d h im.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u me a n a s a p ra c tic e p h o n e h im o nc e th e a mo u n t

h a d c o me in to Is ib o n e lo ’s a cc o u n t o r d o y o u me a n yo u p h on e d h im o n
th is p a r tic u la r oc c as io n ?
20

MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I t w a s a p r a c tic e .

C h a ir I s e e w e a r e c lo s e to th e 4 o ’c lo c k b r e a k -

time . Th e r e a r e a fe w r e ma in in g ite ms o n , w e ll a c tu a lly I n e e d to g o in to
th e d e ta ils o f w h a t th e n p r e c is e ly h a p p en e d. So , it ma y b e a c o n v e n ie n t
time to ta k e th e a d jo u r n e me n t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u wo u ld lik e to , u s to

Page 153 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
s to p h e r e o r w h e th e r d e pe n d in g o n h o w muc h time y o u n e e d w ith h im, i f
w e n e e d e d a n h ou r ma y be w e c o u ld co v er, g o u p to fiv e [in te r v e n e s ].
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , w e s h o u ld co v e r qu ite s o me s ub s ta n tia l

g r o u n d if it is c o n v e n ie n t fo r u s to c o n tin u e .
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll w e c a n g o u p to fiv e fr o m my p o in t o f v ie w b u t

d o in g th a t is a lso c on v e n ie n t fo r e v er yb o dy in c lu d in g Mr X b u t a lso w e
h a v e to lo o k a t w h a t d iffe r e n c e th a t w o u ld ma k e a s fo r to mo r r o w b ec a us e
if in th e e n d it w ill n o t ma k e a n y d iffe r e n ce w e ma y as w e ll ad jo u r n an d
th e n c o n tin u e to mo r r ow.
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C h a ir my v ie w is th a t it w ill ma k e q u ite a n imp a c t

to b e a b le to h a v e a fu r th e r h o u r. I r e a lly d o th in k I c o u ld g e t th r o u g h
q u ite a b it o f th e d e ta il o f th e tr a n s a c tio n s a n d it w o u ld b e us e fu l to g e t
th a t o u t o f th e w a y e v e n if w e h a v e to r e tu rn fo r a s h o r t p e r io d to mo r r ow.
Sp e a k in g fo r my s e lf I – I mig h t ju s t r e q u est a s h o r t c o mfo r t b re a k if w e
a r e g o ing to g o o n fo r a n o th e r h o ur, I w ill b e in d e b te d to th a t o th e r w is e I
th in k w e c o u ld us e fu lly u s e a n h ou r.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , Mr X w o u ld y o u b e a b le to c o n tin u e u n til a b o u t 5

o ’c lo ck ?
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , w e c a n t r y.

Mis s In te r p r e te r a r e y ou a b le ? O r h av e y ou g o t a

c h a lle n g e?
IN TER PR ETER :

Ye s , b e c a u s e I d id n o t h av e tr a n sp o r t to g e t h e r e , y es , I

h a d a p r o b le m w ith my c a r.
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y th e n w e ju s t h a v e to a d jo u r n .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We d o , In d e e d .

C h a ir I th in k w e d id d is c u s s

Page 154 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
p o s s ib ly s ta r tin g e a r ly to mo r r ow, is th a t s till c o n v e n ien t?
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e W i tn e s s fo r to mo r r o w h o w lo n g d o y o u th in k w e w ill

b e w ith h im? H o w ma n y W itn e s s es d o y o u ha v e ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We o n ly h a v e Mr Ma jo la s c h ed u le d fo r to mo rr o w

s o th e id e a w o u ld b e to c o n c lu d e w ith MR X a n d th e n mo v e to Mr Ma jo la ,
a n d I d o e n v is a g e th e d a y w ith Mr Ma jo la
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ya , o k a y, o k a y, ma y b e if w e a n d if Mr Ma jo la w ill n o t b e

n e e d in g a n in te r pr e te r, d o y o u kn o w ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

N o , w e h a v e n o t b e e n a le r te d to a n y s u ch n e e d ,

no.
C H A IR PER SO N:

If w e a r e g o in g to , o r w e c a n n o t g o u p to fiv e to mo rr o w

b e c a us e o f th e o th e r c o mmitme n t. So ma y b e w e s ho u ld th e n s ta r t e ar ly
to mo r r o w, it is a p ity w e c a nn o t c o n tin u e a n d c ov e r so me mo r e g ro u n d
to d a y. W h a t time w e r e y o u s u g ge s tin g th a t w e s ta r t to mo r r o w ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W ith h e s ita tio n I s u g g es t n in e , b u t e v e n n ine -

th ir ty w o u ld g iv e u s a b it mo r e time .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ya – y a , s h a ll w e d o n in e th ir ty ? I w a s g o in g to d o 9

o ’c lo ck b u t th e r e is s o me th in g e ls e th a t I n e e d to a tte n d to . L e t u s s a y
9 H 3 0 , le t u s s a y 9 H 3 0 a n d i f n e e d b e , w e w ill s e e w h e r e e ls e w e c a n
20

ma k e s o me mo r e time .

I th in k ma y b e w h en w e s ta r t to mo r r o w it w o u ld

h e lp if y o u ha v e a b e tte r p ic tu r e in te r ms o f h o w mu ch time y o u n e e d in
o r d e r to fin is h Mr Ma jo la ’s e v id e nc e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Of course.

Ya , N o th a t is fin e a n d t h e n I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s

w r o n g to d ay w ith th e a ir c o n , it is lik e a - i t i s h o t, it is n o t ma k in g u s c o o l

Page 155 of 156

17 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 213
s o s o me b o dy mu s t p le a s e a tte n d to th a t fr o m to mo r r o w. O k a y Mr X w e
a r e g o ing to a d jo u rn th e p ro c e ed in g s fo r tod a y. We a re g o in g to r e su me
a t 0 9 h 3 0 to mo r r o w mo r n in g .
MR X ( t hr ough int e r pr e t e r ) :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a n k y o u .

O k a y w e a d jo ur n .

IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S TO 1 8 FEB R U ARY 2 0 2 0

10

Page 156 of 156