C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

1 7 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 3 5

20

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 1 7 J U LY 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d m o r n i n g Mr P r e to r iu s , g o o d m o r n in g M r Zu m a ,

g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A r e y o u r e a d y M r P r e t o r iu s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Mr Z u m a I w o u ld li k e t o g o b a c k
p l e a s e j u s t to t w o b r i e f m a t te r s d e a l i n g w i t h e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y.

In

r e l a ti o n to M r M a s e k o a s th e C E O o f G C I S I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r
e v i d e n c e a n d I u n d e r s t a n d i t to b e c o r r e c t t h a t t h a t p o s t is t h e
10

e q u iv a l e n t o f a h e a d o f a d e p a r t m e n t p o s t.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
t h e r e l e v a n t le g is l a ti o n w o u ld a p p ly.

A n d t h a t c e r t a i n p r o v is i o n s o f
I d o n o t i n t e n d to d e b a t e t h o s e

p r o v i s i o n s w i t h y o u b u t I n e e d i n f a ir n e s s to a s k c e r ta i n q u e s ti o n s
a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s l e a d i n g u p to t h e t e r m i n a t io n o f M r M a s e k o ’s
e m p l o y m e n t a s h e a d o f G C I S a n d t h e tr a n s fe r t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n . A n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e
you made no decision…
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I a m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r iu s I th in k M r S ik h a k h a n e

in d i c a t e s h e w is h e s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . L e t u s a ll o w h i m .
ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE:

C h a ir a s I s a i d I a m s o r r y t o b r e a k w h a t I

p r o m is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : I d o t h in k t h i s i s p r o b l e m a tic .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE:

W e g e t a lis t o f n a m e s o f p e o p l e t h a t a r e

g o i n g t o b e – w e l l w h o s e e v i d e n c e i s g o i n g to b e d e a l t w i th , r i g h t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : A n d y my c li e n t h a s t o d e a l w it h Mr M a s e k o
and it moves to Barbara Hogan.

A n d w h e n w e d e a li n g w i th B a r b a r a

H o g a n m y le a r n e d fr ie n d g o e s b a c k t o – I t h i n k i t is a p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y is i t a p r o b l e m ?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E: B e c a u s e I t h i n k – I th i n k w e n e e d t o h a v e a
s tr u c t u r e a b o u t w h a t w e d o i n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE:

I t i s q u i t e d i ffi c u l t b e c a u s e w e th in k w e

d o n e w i t h a n a m e a n d i t is b a c k .

I ju s t – i t is a – I th i n k it is a

p r o c e d u r e [i n d is t in c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I w o u l d – I w o u l d a g r e e th a t p r e fe r a b l y w h e n w e
a r e d o n e w i th q u e s ti o n i n g th e w i t n e s s o r M r Z u m a a b o u t t h e e v i d e n c e
o f a p a r t ic u l a r w i t n e s s th e n w e a r e d o n e .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But

I

do

not

think

there

would

be

anything

f u n d a m e n t a lly w r o n g i f o n e r e a lis e s a f te r th a t w i t n e s s h a s b e e n – t h e
20

evidence of that witness has been done that maybe there was some
q u e s t io n s t h a t w e r e o v e r l o o k e d t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t p r o v i d e d Mr Z u m a is
a b l e to d e a l w it h t h e m . Th e t i m in g if n e e d b e o n e c a n l o o k a t th a t . I
c e r t a i n l y a ls o m a y h a v e s o m e t h in g i n r e g a r d to M r M a s e k o th a t I mi g h t
w i s h t o s a y b u t i t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t – p r e f e r a b ly i t s h o u l d b e s tr u c tu r e d
in a w a y a s y o u s a y t h a t w h e n w e a r e d o n e w it h o n e t h e e v id e n c e o f

Page 3 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
o n e w it n e s s t h a t s h o u ld b e s o b u t w e a ll k n o w s o m e ti m e s th a t la t e r o n
o n e m i g h t th in k s o m e t h i n g a n d t h e n s a y y o u k n o w th e r e m a y b e
u n f a i r n e s s if w e d o n o t d e a l w it h t h is . S o m y p r i m a f a c ie v ie w is th a t
a s lo n g a s M r Z u m a is a b l e t o d e a l w i t h it I m e a n fr o m m y p o i n t o f v ie w
e v e n i f i t w a s to b e s a i d w e l l m a y b e i t is n o t th e b e s t t i m e t o d e a l w i th
it w h e n w e h a v e s ta r t e d w i th M s H o g a n .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h a v e n o t f in is h e d w i t h h e r m a y b e w e m u s t f in is h
w i t h h e r a n d t h e n b e f o r e w e g o to t h e n e x t w i t n e s s …
10

A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n – t h a t f o r m e is f in e a s w e ll .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E:

W e m a y h a v e m a d e a m is t a k e C h a ir

b e c a u s e w e s a w a li s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE:

W e w e r e q u i t e k e e n to m o v e t o M i n i s te r

Gordhan.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Q u i t e q u i c k l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : B u t – a n d th e n a m e w a s s h i ft e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E:

B u t i t is fi n e w e – I t h i n k t h e C h a ir is

making a reasonable…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I m u s t a l s o s a y I w a s g o i n g t o r a i s e w i th M r – p a r t
o f w h a t y o u s a y I w a s a ls o g o i n g to r a i s e w i t h Mr Pr e t o r i u s .

Page 4 of 102

On my

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
bundle.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r w e h a d d e a l t w i th M r M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e a n d M s
M e n to r ’s e v id e n c e m y b u n d l e s u g g e s t e d t h e n e x t w i t n e s s w a s t o b e
M i n is t e r – Mr N e n e .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t – th a t is i n t e r m s o f m i n e . I a m a s s u m i n g th a t
h is is t h e s a m e a n d y o u r s is t h e s a m e .

So I was wondering why he

m o v e d to M s H o g a n b e f o r e g o in g to d e a li n g w i th M r N e n e ’s o n e . B u t –
10

b u t I w il l h e a r w h a t h e s a y s b u t t h e p r i n c ip l e o f a n is s u e a q u e s t io n
b e i n g r a is e d a f te r w e th i n k t h a t w e a r e d o n e w i th o n e w it n e s s I t h i n k
t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m w i th i t . B u t it m a y b e t h a t – t h e r e m a y b e n o th i n g
w r o n g to s a y le t u s fi n i s h w i t h th e o n e w e h a v e a lr e a d y s t a r t e d b u t
m a y b e b e fo r e w e g o t o t h e n e x t o n e t h e n l e t u s c o v e r w h a t e v e r m a y
h a v e b e e n fo r g o t te n .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Ye s [ i n d is ti n c t ] [ m u m b li n g ] s tr u c t u r e t h e r e is
n o t h i n g b u t I w il l t a k e w h a t t h e C h a i r s u g g e s ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , y e s o k a y t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y I j u s t s a y C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

In a n s w e r t o t h a t .

Ve r y o f t e n

w h e n o n e c o n s i d e r s o v e r n i g h t t h e e v i d e n c e g i v e n , t h e q u e s ti o n s a s k e d
a n d th e a n s w e r s g iv e n o n e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t i t m a y b e a p p r o p r i a t e t o
p u t c e r ta i n i s s u e s t o t h e w i tn e s s c o n c e r n e d i n t h is c a s e t h e fo r m e r
President.

N o t o n ly i n o r d e r t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e q u e s ti o n i n g h a s b e e n

Page 5 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
f u ll a n d p r o p e r a n d i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e m a n d a t e o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n
t h a t t h e c o m m i s s io n h o l d s b u t a ls o in o r d e r t o b e f a ir to th e w i tn e s s .
Because

from

the

evidence

certain

c o n c l u s io n s

may

be

drawn

p a r t ic u l a r ly i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t i n
r e l a ti o n to t h e tr a n s f e r o f M r M a s e k o w h ic h r e q u ir e s i n fa ir n e s s
c o n fir m a t io n o f c e r t a i n f a c ts o r c e r t a i n f a c ts t o b e p u t t o h i m s o th a t
w h e n l a t e r i t is s o u g h t t o d r a w c o n c l u s i o n s fr o m t h a t e v i d e n c e t h e
witness

has

had

an

o p p o r t u n i ty

to

comment on

those

possible

c o n c l u s i o n s . S o th e r e c a n b e n o u n f a ir n e s s t h a t h a p p e n s r e g u l a r l y i n
10

p r o c e e d i n g s p a r t ic u l a r ly o f th is n a t u r e w h e r e t h e r e a r e v a s t a m o u n t o f
is s u e s t o e x a m i n e . A n d I a ls o h a v e a q u e s ti o n i n r e la t io n t o M s M e n to r.
I a m n o t s u r e t h a t it i s n o t a p p r o p r i a t e n o w a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f th e d a y
t o d e a l w i t h i t b u t i f y o u s a y I m u s t w a i t u n ti l M s H o g a n is – m a tt e r s a r e
fi n i s h e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m h a p p y t o d o th a t i t is n o t a
p r o b le m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u l d n o t w a n t t o fix a h a r d a n d f a s t r u l e b u t e v e n
f o r th e tr a n s c r i p t i t m a y b e t h a t i t is c o n v e n i e n t i f o n c e w e h a v e s t a r te d

20

w i t h th e e v id e n c e o r q u e s ti o n s r e l a ti n g to t h e e v id e n c e o f a p a r tic u la r
w i t n e s s w e f in is h t h a t – th e q u e s ti o n s r e la ti n g t o t h a t w i tn e s s a n d t h e n
b e f o r e w e g o i n t o t h e n e x t o n e i f t h e r e is a n y t h in g t o c a t c h u p w i t h
r e g a r d t o p r e v io u s w i t n e s s e s w e d o t h a t . I d o n o t a s I s a y – w e d o n o t
fi x a s a h a r d a n d f a s t r u l e b u t I d o n o t t h i n k i t w o u ld p r e j u d i c e y o u
e i t h e r.

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I t c e r t a i n ly w i ll n o t C h a ir b u t

w h a t I d o fi n d p a r t ic u l a r ly d is t u r b i n g is t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h c o n tr o l is
s o u g h t t o b e e x e r c i s e d o v e r t h e w a y t h e l e g a l te a m h a s p l a n n e d a n d is
a s k in g it s q u e s ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l le t m e s a y t h i s .

I h a v e th o u g h t o f s a y in g t h is

b e f o r e b u t I a m g o i n g to s a y i t n o w. T h e l e g a l te a m o f t h e c o m m i s s io n
is th e r e t o d o a c e r t a i n j o b . T h e l e g a l te a m f o r t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t i s
t h e r e to d o a c e r t a i n j o b . I a m t h e r e t o d o a c e r t a i n j o b . A ll o f u s h a v e
o u r o w n j o b s to d o .
10

Th e l e g a l t e a m f o r t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t h a s n o

p o w e r to p r e s c r i b e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m h o w to d o t h e ir j o b
nor has the legal team of the commission has power nor has the legal
t e a m o f t h e c o m m is s i o n p o w e r t o p r e s c r i b e to t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t’s
le g a l te a m h o w t o d o t h e ir j o b .

They may have views about each

o th e r ’s w a y o f d o i n g t h e ir r e s p e c tiv e j o b s b u t in t h e e n d e a c h s i d e
n e e d s t o d o w h a t it h a s t o d o .

O n e w i t h a v i e w to a l l o w i n g t h e

p r o c e e d i n g s t o p r o c e e d a s s m o o t h ly a s p o s s ib l e h o w e v e r w it h o u t
c o m p r is in g th e ir o w n p o s it i o n . S o t h o s e a r e t h e t w o th in g s t h a t I t h in k
w o u ld g u i d e a l l s i d e s . W h a t e v e r I a ls o d o in te r ms o f q u e s t i o n s I a ll o w,
r u l i n g s I m i g h t m a k e t h e y a r e a i m e d a t 1 . E n s u r in g a s m o o t h a f lo w o f
20

p r o c e e d i n g s a s p o s s i b le .

F a ir n e s s to a l l c o n c e r n e d b u t w i t h o u t a n y

c o m p r o m is e o n m y p a r t o n t h e j o b t h a t I h a v e to d o . S o w h e n e i t h e r t h e
f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t ’s l e g a l t e a m m a k e s a n y s u b m i s s i o n s to m e w h ic h t h e y
a r e e n t i tl e d to m a k e a s to a n y o b je c ti o n t o c e r t a in q u e s ti o n s o r a n y
o b j e c ti o n t o a n y t h i n g I w il l lo o k a t it in t h e w a y t h a t I a s C h a ir p e r s o n
s h o u l d l o o k a t i t . I f t h e y a r e r i g h t I w i ll u p h o l d t h e m . I f t h e y a r e w r o n g

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
I w il l r e j e c t t h e ir s u b m is s i o n s . I w il l d o t h e s a m e w it h th e l e g a l te a m o f
the commission.

A n d i f q u e s t io n s a r e a s k e d t o th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t

t h a t I fe e l a r e u n f a i r I w i ll i n te r v e n e .

If q u e s t io n s a r e a s k e d t h a t h is

t e a m o r e v e n h e fe e ls m a y b e u n fa ir i f I fe e l t h e r e i s n o t h i n g u n fa ir w i t h
t h e m I w i ll a ll o w t h e m .

S o to t h e e x te n t t h a t t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l

t e a m m a y f e e l t h a t th e c o u n s e l f o r M r Z u m a i s tr y in g t o c o n tr o l a n y th i n g
t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n m u s t r e s is t t h a t .

T h e c o m m i s s io n ’s

le g a l te a m m u s t d o i ts jo b a n d r e s i s t a n y t h in g th a t m a y n o t b e
a p p r o p r i a t e . Mr Z u m a ’s l e g a l t e a m th e y w i ll a ls o b e tr y in g t o d o th e ir
10

jo b i n t e r m s o f p r o te c t i n g th e ir c l ie n t i f t h e y t h i n k t h e r e is a n y t h i n g
u n f a i r b u t i f t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m i s s io n b e l i e v e s t h e r e i s n o t h i n g
u n f a i r t h e y h a v e to – t o m a k e t h a t c l e a r. A n d w h e r e I n e e d t o m a k e a
r u l i n g I w i ll .

W h e r e a s y e s t e r d a y I t h i n k a d is c u s s i o n m ig h t p r o d u c e a

r e s u l t t h a t a ll o w s u s to p r o c e e d I w i ll d o t h a t . S o – s o I ju s t w a n t t o
s a y a n d I t h i n k i n r e g a r d to th a t I w a n t to p o i n t o u t th a t it i s i m p o r t a n t
to draw attention to – in terms of the role of the legal team to draw
a tt e n ti o n t o R u l e 3 . 2 o f t h e R u l e s o f th e C o m m i s s i o n . A n d I d r a w th is
ju s t s o t h a t th e r e i s n o c o n f u s io n .
“ A m e m b e r o f th e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m m a y p u t
20

q u e s t io n s to a w i t n e s s w h o s e e v id e n c e is p r e s e n te d
t o t h e c o m m i s s io n b y t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s le g a l te a m
in c l u d i n g

q u e s ti o n s

aimed

at

a s s i s t in g

the

c o m m i s s io n i n a s s e s s i n g t h e tr u t h f u l n e s s o f t h e
evidence of a witness.

S u b j e c t t o t h e d i r e c t io n s o f

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m m a y

Page 8 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
a s k le a d i n g q u e s ti o n s . ”
I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d – it is n o t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t a n y t h i n g t h a t th e
– t h a t M r Z u m a ’s l e g a l te a m h a s s a i d e it h e r i n t h e p a s t t w o d a y s o r
t o d a y. I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n y t h in g t h e y h a v e s a i d is s o m e t h in g
t h a t s u g g e s t s th a t M r Zu m a s h o u l d n o t b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s a i m e d a t
e s t a b li s h in g t h e tr u t h f u l n e s s o f a n y o f t h e is s u e s a n d th e c o m m i s s i o n ’s
le g a l te a m is fr e e t o d o i ts j o b th e w a y t h e y b e l ie v e t h e y s h o u ld c a r r y i t
o u t a n d if i n d o i n g s o Mr Z u m a ’s le g a l t e a m f e e ls th e r e i s a p r o b l e m
t h e y w i ll r a is e it a n d i f n e c e s s a r y I w il l m a k e – I w il l m a k e a r u l in g . S o
10

I th i n k th a t o n t h e i s s u e t h a t w a s r a is e d b y M r S ik h a k h a n e a fe w
m i n u t e s a g o m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h e a t t it u d e ta k e n
b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d h e m e n t io n e d s o m e th in g t h a t w a s o f c o n c e r n . I
t h i n k o n c e I h a v e e x p l a i n e d – I h a d e x p l a i n e d m y a t ti t u d e h e w a s n o t
r ig i d a b o u t i t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr Z u m a

y e s t e r d a y w h e n w e a d jo u r n e d w e w e r e d e a l in g w i th th e e v i d e n c e o f M s
H o g a n a n d s h e h a d t e s ti fi e d a s w a s p o i n te d o u t to y o u i n r e g a r d to h o w
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r s a n d b o a r d m e m b e r s o f s t a t e o w n e d e n t it i e s
w e r e a p p o in t e d i n t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e a n d s h e d e s c r i b e d a p r o c e s s w i t h
20

w h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d y o u l a r g e l y a g r e e d a n d t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 4 0 3 o f
t h e b u n d l e G G [ b ] – G G [ b ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t t h e r i g h t o n e Mr Z u m a ? Th e r ig h t f il e ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I h o p e s o . Th a t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e s p i n e i t s h o u l d b e w r it t e n G G [ b ] o n t h e s p in e .
I f i t is w r i tt e n G G [b ] it w i ll b e t h e r i g h t o n e .

Page 9 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja GG[b].
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u h a v e a p g e 4 0 3 M r Z u m a ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : 4 0 3 t h e r e d in k ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R e d n u m b e r y e s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

H a v in g s e t o u t i n h e r e v i d e n c e

the normal processes or processes that she recorded as normal she
s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 2 2 s o m e t h i n g d i ff e r e n t .
10

S h e s a y s th a t i n p r a c ti c e

h o w e v e r a n d I a m r e f e r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 2 2 th e r e w e r e p a r a ll e l b e h i n d
the scenes processes.
“ A s t h e r u li n g p a r t y th e A N C h a d e x p e c t a ti o n s th a t
t h e y w o u ld h a v e i n fl u e n c e o v e r w h o w a s a p p o in t e d t o
b o a r d s v ia t h e d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e o f t h e A N C .
When

that ANC

d e p lo y m e n t

came

c o m m i t te e

i n to
p la y e d

power
a

in

1994

useful

role

the
in

id e n t i fy i n g a p p r o p r ia t e c a n d i d a t e s fr o m a m o n g t h e
r a n k s o f p r o g r e s s i v e f o r c e s to fi ll c r u c i a l p o s i t io n s a s
t h e s ta t e a t t h a t t i m e w a s s t a ff e d e n ti r e ly b y t h e
20

p r e v i o u s a p a r t m e n t g o v e r n m e n t a p p o in t e e s . ”
A m a t t e r t h a t h a s c o n c e r n e d t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a ti o n is h o w
s e n i o r p e o p l e i n t h e b o a r d s a n d e x e c u t iv e p o s ts o f s t a t e o w n e d e n t it i e s
are appointed.

Whether those appointments are appropriate or have

r e s u l t e d i n th e a p p r o p r i a t e fu l fil m e n t o f t a s k s a n d w h e th e r t h a t h a s
in fl u e n c e d in a n y w a y w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d i n t h e s ta t e o w n e d e n t i ti e s

Page 10 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
o v e r a n e x te n d e d p e r io d . A n d o n e o f t h e is s u e s r a is e d b y M s H o g a n
w a s t h e is s u e o f d e p l o y m e n t . D o e s t h e p r a c t ic e a n d p e r h a p s y o u c a n
h e l p u s w it h y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e
d e p lo y m e n t p r o c e s s if i t e x is ts – u n d e r s t a n d w h y i t e x is ts a n d
understand

h o w i t is

e x e r c is e d

and

w h a t in f lu e n c e i t p l a y s i n

a p p o i n t m e n ts a t s ta t e o w n e d e n t it i e s a t b o a r d l e v e l a n d s e n i o r
e x e c u tiv e le v e l . C o u ld y o u t e ll u s a li t tl e p l e a s e a b o u t d e p l o y m e n t ? I f
it e x i s t s f ir s tl y a n d s e c o n d ly i f i t d o e s e x i s t h o w i t is e m p l o y e d o r
u til is e d a s a m a n n e r o f in f lu e n c i n g s e l e c t io n o f b o a r d m e m b e r s a n d
10

S O E ’s a n d s e n i o r e x e c u t iv e s i n S O E ’s ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s th e r e is a
d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e i n t h e A N C . Th e A N C t o o k a d e c i s i o n t h a t g iv e n
t h e f a c t th a t i t w a s a r u li n g p a r ty. It is g iv e n t h a t p o s i t io n b e c a u s e i t
h a s w o n e le c ti o n s . I n o th e r w o r d s p e o p l e in t h e c o u n t r y f e e l t h a t th e
A N C c a n l e a d th e m b e t t e r o n t h e b a s is o f i ts p o l ic ie s .

Now the ANC

h a s a n i n t e r e s t o n c e i t h a s p u t i ts g o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e t h e g o v e r n m e n t
w o u ld h a v e c o m e a s a r e s u l t o f t h e A N C h a v i n g b e e n a c c e p t e d b y t h e
v o t e r s t h a t t h e p r o g r a m m e s a n d p o li c i e s t h a t i t i s p u t ti n g a c r o s s w o u l d
in d e e d b e i m p le m e n t e d .
20

A n d t h e r e f o r e i t t o o k a d e c is io n t h a t t h e r e

m u s t b e s o m e a s s is t a n c e t o g o v e r n m e n t i n t e r m s o f fi n d i n g p e o p l e t o
d o s p e c i fi c th i n g s . A n d a ls o M i n is t e r s a s t h e y s e a r c h fo r p e o p l e to p u t
in t o p o s i t io n s t h e y w o u ld a l s o r e ly t o t h e p a r t y t o s a y I w a n t t o d e p l o y
s o a n d s o o r a p e r s o n i n t h is k i n d o f p o s i ti o n i s th e r e a n y p e r s o n
c a p a b le fo r th is th a t y o u c o u ld r e c o m m e n d e tc e t e r a . I n o th e r w o r d s th e
in t e r e s t o f t h e A N C i s to e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e a r e [i n d i s t i n c t ] w h o w il l

Page 11 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o g r a m m e s a p p r o p r ia t e l y.

S o t h e y i n te r a c t w i t h t h e

d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e in t h e p r o c e s s a s y o u w o u l d b e l o o k i n g f o r
s o m e b o d y y o u – w h e r e y o u h e a d h u n t a t ti m e s . A t t i m e s th e y d o n o t
h a v e to c o m e t o t h e c o m m i t t e e if th e y h a v e g o t i n d iv i d u a ls t h e y b e l ie v e
t h a t c a n d o th e j o b .

B u t o n c e t h a t is d o n e t h e n t h e p r o c e s s e s o f t h e

g o v e r n m e n t w i ll k ic k i n .

A n d a t t i m e s t h e M i n i s te r m i g h t s a y l o o k I

t h i n k I h a v e g o t a b e t te r c a n d id a t e I d o n o t th i n k t h is o n e w i ll f i t. T h e
d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e a s s i s t e d t h a t p r o c e s s b e c a u s e it s a i m is t h a t
t h i n g s s h o u l d b e d o n e . I t d o e s n o t i m p o s e t h e m w h e t h e r y o u l ik e i t o r
10

n o t i t is a d is c u s s i o n t h a t t a k e s p l a c e a n d t h e n o n c e t h a t p r o c e s s h a s
b e e n d o n e th e r e w i ll h a v e to b e a g o v e r n m e n t p r o c e s s a s w e l l w h e r e i n
p e o p l e g o t h r o u g h i n te r v i e w s .

W h e r e t h e M i n i s te r a p p o in t s o r p u t

t o g e th e r a n u m b e r o f c o l l e a g u e s t o h e lp in th e p r o c e s s o f i n t e r v ie w s . A
p e r s o n p e r h a p s t h a t t h e d e p l o y m e n t c o m m i t te e f e l t th is c o u l d b e t h e
r ig h t p e r s o n t o t h i s p o s i t io n m i g h t a c t u a l ly f a i l t h e – t h e i n t e r v ie w s . S o
it is n o t th a t o n c e y o u h a v e t a k e n t h a t d e c i s i o n t h e n i t is a f o r e g o n e
c o n c l u s i o n b e c a u s e y o u m i g h t fi n d t h a t t h e p e r s o n d o e s n o t h a v e th e
n e c e s s a r y t h in g s th a t a r e n e e d e d fo r a p a r ti c u l a r jo b . It i s a l l d o n e t o
h e l p t h a t w h e n y o u m a k e t h e - o r y o u p u t p e o p le y o u d o n o t j u s t g e t
20

r e s tr ic t e d t o o n e p e r s o n . Th e r e is a v a r ie ty o f p e o p l e t h a t y o u l o o k a t.
And that is what happens.

A n d M in is t e r s w il l g o t o t h e d e p l o y m e n t

c o m m i t t e e t o s a y I a m lo o k i n g f o r a p e r s o n o r t h e d e p l o y m e n t
c o m m i t t e e c o u l d s a y M i n is t e r w e h a v e p e o p l e t h a t y o u c o u ld lo o k a t.
S o it is a p r o c e s s th a t fi ts in t o th e p r o c e s s o f th e g o v e r n m e n t th e o n e
t h a t c o m e s f r o m t h e p o li t ic a l – a h w h a t y o u c a ll a – d e p l o y m e n t

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
c o m m i t t e e . I n o th e r w o r d s i t h e lp s t h e g o v e r n m e n t fir s t ly t o m a k e t h e
c a n d i d a t e s a v a il a b l e a n d a l s o t o lo o k a t s p e c i fi c p e o p le . A t ti m e s t h e
c o m m i t t e e h a s n o t h i n g t o d o b e c a u s e t h e r e w i ll b e n o n e e d a t a ll a n d
t h e M in is t e r c o u l d b e k n o w i n g w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g , fi n d s o m e b o d y a n d
b r i n g t h a t s o m e b o d y. I t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t e a c h a n d e v e r y p e r s o n w h o
g e t s a p p o i n t e d g o e s t h r o u g h th is p r o c e s s .

T h a t is g e n e r a lly h o w i t

works.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A s I u n d e r s ta n d i t t h e r e a r e

t h r e e is s u e s th a t y o u h a v e e m p h a s i s e d a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o u n d e r s t a n d
10

them to see if I have it correct.

T h e fir s t is t h a t t h e d e p lo y m e n t

c o m m i t t e e o f t h e r u li n g p a r t y is i n v o lv e d i n d e c is io n m a k i n g f r o m t i m e
t o t i m e i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f b o a r d m e m b e r s o f s t a t e o w n e d e n t i ti e s
a n d s e n i o r e x e c u t iv e s . D o I u n d e r s t a n d th a t c o r r e c tly ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: The deployment committee does
n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a p p o i n t . I t r e c o m m e n d s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t i s i n v o l v e d I w a s g e t ti n g t o

that.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: In the process.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

appointment either

in

h e a r in g

fr o m

I t is in v o lv e d i n t h e p r o c e s s o f
M in is te r s

what –

who

t h e ir

c a n d i d a t e s m i g h t b e a n d g iv i n g i n p u t o n t h a t o r s u g g e s ti n g c a n d id a t e s
t o t h e M i n is te r t h a t – i n th a t p r o c e s s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o a ls o s a y t h a t
t h e d e p l o y m e n t c o m m i t t e e is n o t d e c is iv e in t h a t p r o c e s s b u t t h a t th e

Page 13 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
fi n a l d e c is io n w o u l d r e s t a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u w i t h t h e M in is t e r f o l l o w i n g
t h e s e le c t i o n p r o c e d u r e s in t e r v i e w s a n d t h e li k e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Is t h a t c o r r e c t .

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t t h e d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e w o u l d
h a v e a li s t o f p e o p le w i th i n d ic a ti o n s o f w h a t t h e ir q u a li f ic a t i o n s a r e ,
w h a t t h e ir e x p e r i e n c e s a r e , i n w h a t s e c t o r s a n d s o o n s o t h a t w h e n e v e r
t h e y a r e c o n s u l te d b y a M i n i s te r in r e g a r d to a p a r ti c u l a r p o s t th e y
10

c o u l d g o t o th a t l is t a n d s e e w h o d o w e h a v e in o u r l is t w h o h a v e
q u a li fi c a t io n s t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t f o r th is p o s t a n d e x p e r i e n c e a n d t h e n
w e c o u l d – t h e y c o u ld s a y h e r e a r e s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e y o u c o u l d l o o k
a t o r is t h e r e n o li s t t h e y w o r k – s i m p ly w o r k o n th e b a s i s o f p e o p l e th a t
they know?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e y d o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly k e e p a
lis t f o r t h a t . I t h i n k i t h a p p e n s t h a t t h e A N C k n o w s – th e p a r ty k n o w s
it s p e o p l e a n d i t k n o w s s o m e o f th e m , t h e ir c a p a c i ti e s . S o m e m a y n o t
k n o w.

S o w h e n th a t s i t u a t io n a r is e s t h e y w i ll th e n l o o k a t t h o s e .

It

m i g h t b e s o m e o th e r lis t s e tc e te r a . O n c e th e y k n o w w h a t ty p e o f – o r
20

w h a t ty p e o f p e r s o n is w a n t e d t o a s s i s t t h e p r o c e s s .

Not that every

ti m e i t h a p p e n s th e y m u s t g o t o th e d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e t o l o o k a t a
lis t n o t a t a ll . A t t i m e s i t d o e s n o t h a p p e n a t a l l. B u t w h e n i t h a p p e n s
t h a t is a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e w i ll m a k e to a s s is t
t h o s e in g o v e r n m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Page 14 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o w o u l d o r d in a r ily s it o n t h e
d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e Mr Z u m a ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

W h o w o u ld o r d in a r il y s it o n t h e

D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t te e M r Zu m a ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

W h o w o u ld o r d in a r il y s it o n t h e

D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e ? I s it a p p o i n t e e s o f t h e p a r ty ? I s i t p e o p le w h o
10

f u l fi l p a r t ic u l a r p o s t s ? C a n y o u a s s i s t u s t h e r e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ye s .

T h e p e o p le – t h e r e a r e

p e o p l e w h o a r e a p p o i n te d e v e r s i n c e i t h a s e x is t e d . N o r m a l ly i t is t h e
p e r s o n w h o h a s b e e n c h a i r i n g . I t w o u l d b e t h e D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t. W h y
t h e D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t b e c a u s e t h e D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t is a D e p u ty
President of the party and Government.

He would also understand

what is needed in Government.
S o y o u d o n o t h a v e a p e r s o n w h o i s c h a ir in g t h is C o m m i t t e e
w h o k n o w s n o t h in g a b o u t w h a t is h a p p e n in g i n G o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e h e
w o u ld n o t b e a b l e t o a s s i s t t o g e t t h e k i n d o f p e o p le t h a t a r e r e a l ly
20

n e e d e d i n G o v e r n m e n t a n d – a n d t h a t i s w h y h e s i ts th e r e t o c h a ir.
S o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e w o u l d b e M in is t e r s
o f a p a r t ic u l a r ty p e .
A ls o

who

w il l

be

knowledge

about

what

happens

in

G o v e r n m e n t . S o t h e – t h e m e m b e r s a r e n o t j u s t m e m b e r s h a n d p ic k e d
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e r e . Th e y a r e p e o p l e w h o w i ll h e l p t h i s p r o c e s s .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a r e t h e y e l e c t e d o r a p p o in t e d a t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A p p o in t e d – a p p o in t e d b y t h e

s tr u c t u r e s – s e n io r s t r u c tu r e s o f t h e m o v e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d i t b e th e N E C th a t w o u l d a p p o i n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s a b s o lu t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

W o u l d t h e s i t ti n g P r e s i d e n t s i t o n

t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

No he does not sit.

He does

n o t s i t b u t c a n – i f h e h a s i d e a s a b o u t t h i n g s h e c a n a ls o i n t e r a c t w i th
t h e C h a ir w h a t e v e r b u t d o e s n o t s i t .
c h a ir s .

I t is th e D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t w h o

T h e h i g h e s t k in d o f o ffi c e r w o u l d b e in t h a t C o m m i t t e e .

Th e

President no.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o t h e y h a v e – t h a t i s t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e –

d o t h e y h a v e a t e r m lik e w h e n e v e r t h e r e is a n e w N E C th a t n e w N E C
a p p o i n ts a D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e f o r t h e d u r a t i o n o f th e li f e o f t h e
N E C o r t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d a t a c e r ta in s ta g e a n d t h e y c o n ti n u e
ir r e s p e c t iv e o f t h e c h a n g e o f t h e N E C o r w h a t is th e p o s i ti o n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a . It – i t g o e s w i t h th e te r m .
20

CHAIRPERSON: The term of the NEC?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: With the term, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Yo u m ig h t fi n d n e w m e m b e r s if

t h e r e i s a n e w t e r m b u t y o u m i g h t – y o u d o n o t h a v e t o b e a p p o i n ti n g
a n d a p p o i n ti n g i n t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e fi v e y e a r s .

Page 16 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S o th a t i s h o w i t g o e s . I t g o e s
t o g e th e r w i t h th e te r m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
in tr o d u c t i o n M r Zu m a .

One more general point by way of

D o e s t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e i n v o l v e it s e l f

with the appointment of Boards of SOEs or Board Members of SOEs,
S e n i o r E x e c u t iv e s i n S O E s a s w e ll a s a p p o i n t m e n ts i n G o v e r n m e n t
D e p a r t m e n ts ?
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A t ti m e s b e c a u s e th e y m i g h t –

t h e y m ig h t r e c o m m e n d i f t h e y k n o w s o m e p e o p l e w h o h a v e e x p e r ie n c e
in t h e B o a r d s . T h e y m i g h t r e c o m m e n d i f t h a t k i n d o f a c t iv it y c o m e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

As

well

as

Government

D e p a r t m e n ts ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n ts

in

what sense?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : W e ll a n a p p o in t m e n t t o a H e a d o f a
G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n t fo r e x a m p l e .

W o u l d t h a t b e s o m e t h in g t h a t

m i g h t f a l l w it h in t h e …
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

T h a t c o u ld a ls o – t h a t c o u ld

a ls o g o t o …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : J u r is d ic ti o n o r a m b i t o f th e a c t iv it i e s
…
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a . P a r ti c u la r ly …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O f t h e d e p lo y m e n t ?

Page 17 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

P a r ti c u la r ly a t th e le a d e r s h i p

le v e l o f th e d e p a r t m e n t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

At paragraph 23 on page 404

M s H o g a n e x p r e s s e d s o m e v i e w s - q u i t e fir m v ie w s i n f a c t o n t h e
u s e fu ln e s s o f th e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t te e a n d t h e e ff e c ti v e n e s s i n e ff e c t
o f i ts p r o c e s s . S h e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 :
“ H o w e v e r, t h e u s e f u l n e s s o f s u c h a D e p l o y m e n t
C o m m i t t e e th e s e d a y s i s d e b a t a b l e . ”
A n d s h e a s k s th e q u e s ti o n :
10

“ H o w c a n j u s t a h a n d f u l o f p e o p le p o s s i b ly h a v e th e
in s t i tu t io n a l k n o w le d g e a n d r e s o u r c e s t o p r o n o u n c e
o n s u i t a b l e c a n d id a t e s f o r e v e r y s e n io r p o s i t io n i n
G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e p r iv a te s e c t o r ? ”
Let us leave aside the word “every” there and may I ask you
t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t - t h a t o b s e r v a ti o n o f h e r s . S h e i s s a y i n g i n e ff e c t
as I understand it that people in the Committee would not have the
in s t i tu t io n a l

k n o w le d g e

and

resources

to

pronounce

on

suitable

c a n d i d a t e s f o r s e n io r p o s it i o n s i n G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e ll I d o n o t k n o w. Th is w o u l d
20

b e h e r v i e w s a s a n in d i v i d u a l b u t t h e o r g a n is a ti o n h a s ta k e n a d e c i s i o n
t o h a v e t h e s e k i n d o f s tr u c t u r e s …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Because

e x p r e s s in g h e r o w n v i e w s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o I u n d e r s ta n d .

Page 18 of 102

here

she

is

just

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: This is not accurate. The views
a r e n o t a c c u r a te b e c a u s e a s I s a i d s e t ti n g u p t h a t C o m m i t t e e th e r e a r e
M i n is t e r s w h o s e r v e th e r e w h o h a v e th e in s t it u ti o n a l m e m o r y w h o s e r v e
t h e r e c h a ir e d b y th e D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t w h o s i ts i n t h e C a b i n e t a n d
e v e r y C a b i n e t C o m m i t t e e . S o i t is n o t a c o r r e c t a r g u m e n t t h a t s h e is
p u t t in g . S h e is j u s t e x p r e s s in g h e r v i e w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

I just want to take a step back and

e x p l a i n w h y th e s e q u e s t i o n s a r e b e i n g a s k e d b e c a u s e i t is a m a t te r o f
c o n c e r n o r a m a t t e r th a t i s p a r t o f th e i s s u e t h a t t h i s C o m m i s s i o n is
10

in v e s t i g a t in g a n d t h a t is h o w s e n io r a p p o in t m e n ts in S O E s t a k e p la c e
but let us move on.

S h e s a y s t h a t – i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 in t h e s e c o n d

s e n te n c e :
“ I t c a n n o t b e th a t c lo s e n e s s t o o r M e m b e r s h i p o f
t h e A N C , o r a n y o f i ts A l li a n c e s tr u c tu r e s ( o r t o
f a c ti o n s

w i th in

the

s tr u c t u r e s ) ,

s h o u ld

be

th e

d e t e r m i n i n g f a c t o r s i n t h e s e l e c ti o n o f c a n d id a t e s
f o r s e n io r p o s it i o n s . ”
D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o . I th i n k s h e is s ti ll p u r s u i n g
20

h e r a r g u m e n t r e a l ly. H o w s h e is l o o k i n g a t th is .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h a t is h o w i t i s – i t is h e r v ie w
b u t th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h w e – w e h a n d l e t h is i s t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h I
h a v e ju s t e x p la in e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

W h a t I t h i n k s h e is s a y i n g in

Page 19 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
s u b s t a n c e is t h a t t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e w o u l d in e v i ta b l e f a v o u r fo r
a p p o i n t m e n t t o i m p o r ta n t p o s i t io n s i n S O E s p e r s o n s w h o a r e c l o s e to o r
m e m b e r s o f th e r u l in g p a r t y a n d c l o s e to o r m e m b e r s o f Al li a n c e
s tr u c t u r e s .

Th a t th e r e is a – th e r e is a b i a s in t h e ir f a v o u r in t h e

a c ti v i ti e s o f t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e i n t h e p r o c e s s . I t h i n k t h a t is
w h a t s h e is s a y in g .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
s h e th i n k s s h o u l d h a p p e n .

Well I do not know what she –

W h y t h e p e o p l e w h o m u s t b e a p p o in t e d

s h o u l d n o t c o m e fr o m t h e p e o p l e w h o e i t h e r – th e p e o p l e k n o w a n d t h e y
10

know the experiences and in the process of that the people who are
h e r e a r e p e o p le w h o w o u l d b e k n o w n e i t h e r b e c a u s e o f t h e ir p r o f e s s io n
o r t h e ir p e r f o r m a n c e b u t a l s o th a t a r e p e o p l e w h o w o u ld i m p l e m e n t th e
p o li c i e s a p p r o p r i a te ly a n d w h o – w h o m i g h t – w h o m a y n o t b e o p p o s e d
t o t h e p o l ic ie s t h a t m a d e th e p a r t y t o b e e l e c t e d t o G o v e r n m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

D o I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m w h a t y o u a r e

s a y in g t h a t t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e w o u l d c o n s i d e r a s a n i m p o r ta n t
a tt r i b u t e fo r a p p o in t m e n t to S e n i o r E x e c u t iv e p o s it i o n s a n d B o a r d s t h e
a b il i ty o r w i ll i n g n e s s o f a c a n d id a te t o i m p l e m e n t p o l ic i e s o f t h e r u li n g
p a r t y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I s e e i t s o . T h a t i s p a r t o f
t h e e l e m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r M r Pr e t o r i u s m i g h t h a v e

b e e n a c c u r a t e in s u g g e s t in g t o y o u th a t w h a t Ms H o g a n s a y s i n
p a r a g r a p h 2 3 i n th e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e t h a t s h e i s s u g g e s ti n g t h a t th e –
t h e r e m ig h t b e b ia s i n f a v o u r o f p e o p le p u t u p b y t h e D e p lo y m e n t

Page 20 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C o m m i t t e e b u t I d o s e e t h a t i n t h a t s e n t e n c e s h e s a y s a n d th is is a
s e n te n c e th a t Mr P r e t o r iu s d id r e a d .
“ I t c a n n o t b e th a t c lo s e n e s s t o o r M e m b e r s h i p o f
t h e A N C , o r a n y o f i ts A l li a n c e s tr u c tu r e s ( o r t o
f a c ti o n s

w i th in

the

s tr u c t u r e s ) ,

s h o u ld

be

th e

d e t e r m i n i n g f a c t o r s i n t h e s e l e c ti o n o f c a n d id a t e s
f o r s e n io r p o s it i o n s . ”
M y i m p r e s s i o n is th a t s h e s e e ms t o s u g g e s t th a t M e m b e r s h i p
o f th e A N C o r o f th e A ll ia n c e p a r tn e r s i s t h e d e t e r m i n i n g fa c t o r t h a t
10

e i t h e r th e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e l o o k s a t o r t h o s e i n G o v e r n m e n t w h o
are given names by the Deployment Committee taken into account.
T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f i t . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r n o w t h a t I h a v e
r e a d it t o y o u – y o u a l s o h a v e t h e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t s h e is
s a y in g b u t i f I a m c o r r e c t i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o p u t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f
w h a t th e tr u e p o s i t io n i s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h a t is w h y I w a s s a y i n g s h e is
o f c o u r s e p u t ti n g h e r o w n v i e w s o n - o n t h e m a t te r s . In o t h e r c o u n tr i e s
f o r e x a m p le w h e n o n e p a r ty w i n s e l e c t io n s a n d l e t u s s a y t o c l a r if y t h e
is s u e i t h a s b e e n th e – t h e o p p o s it i o n w i n s t h e e l e c ti o n s .

20

When they

c o m e to t h e o ffic e th e y d o n o t ta k e p e o p l e w h o a r e th e r e . T h e y r e m o v e
e v e r y b o d y o u t a n d p u t t h e ir p e o p le .
I t i s a g e n e r a l p r a c ti c e i n th e w o r l d . W e a r e n o t e v e n d o in g
t h a t . I t is a q u e s t io n o f h o w t h e p a r ty l o o k s a t n o t o n ly t o t h e m e m b e r s .
E v e n t h o s e w h o a r e n o t m e m b e r s a t a l l. T h a t is w h a t w e d o . In o t h e r
c o u n tr i e s i t i s e x tr e m e . T h e y c o m e e v e n w i t h a s w e e p e v e r y b o d y e l s e

Page 21 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
o f th e n e w p a r ty b e c a u s e th e y m u s t i m p l e m e n t th e p a r ty p o l ic ie s t h a t
w a s a c c e p t e d b y t h e p e o p le .
Yo u c a n n o t t a k e p e o p le b e c a u s e th e o p p o s i ti o n w o u ld n o t d o
s o . S o – t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y in g s h e is j u s t r a is in g m o r e - h e r v i e w s
about this.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

C h a ir a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p u r p o s e

o f c e r t a i n l y t h i s tr a n c h e o f q u e s ti o n s a n d a n s w e r s M r Z u m a is i n a
u n i q u e p o s i ti o n g iv e n h is h i s to r y a n d a s s o c ia t io n w i t h l e a d e r s h i p i n th is
c o u n tr y o v e r t h e p a s t m a n y y e a r s to a s s i s t u s i n th is a n d I w o u l d n o t
10

w a n t to c o n fi n e t h e q u e s t i o n s a n d a n s w e r s to t h e p r e c i s e w o r d i n g . It is
a n is s u e th a t is r a is e d a n d w e m ig h t n a r r o w t h e q u e s ti o n s a n d a n s w e r s
to closely if we simply …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No I …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

D e a l w i t h t h e p r e c is e w o r d i n g a n d

o p i n i o n o f Ms H o g a n .
CHAIRPERSON: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

We

are

in t e r e s t e d

in

t h is

in v e s t i g a t io n in h o w t h e P r e s i d e n t c a n – f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t c a n a s s is t u s
a n d u n d e r s t a n d in g th e i s s u e o f d e p l o y m e n t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e – I m e a n c o u n s e l f o r Mr Z u m a w il l in d i c a t e f i
t h e y h a v e a p r o b le m b u t m y – m y in c li n a ti o n is t h a t s i n c e t h e is s u e o f
t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e is b e i n g r a is e d h e r e i f y o u h a v e q u e s t io n s
r e l a ti n g to t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e o n w h ic h y o u th i n k M r Z u m a c a n
a s s is t i n e n li g h t e n i n g t h e C o m m i s s io n y o u s h o u l d b e a b le t o p u t t h o s e .
H e h a s i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e is c h a ir e d

Page 22 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
b y t h e D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t . H e w a s D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e .
I a m s u r e h e t h e r e f o r e c h a ir e d th e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e .

So he

s h o u l d b e q u i t e w e ll i n fo r m e d a t l e a s t h o w i t h a s b e e n fu n c t io n in g a n d I
a m s u r e h e w i ll – h e w il l a s s is t u s a s f a r a s h e is a b l e t o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f I c o u l d j u s t t h e n
a tt e m p t t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e in r e la ti o n t o th e a c ti v i ti e s o f t h e
D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t te e i n a p p o i n t m e n t s t h a t w e h a v e d is c u s s e d . Yo u r
e m p h a s is

is

not so

much

as

I understand

it on

closeness

or

M e m b e r s h ip o f th e A N C . Yo u r e m p h a s is i s o n a n a b i li ty a n d w i ll in g n e s s
10

t o i m p le m e n t th e p o li c i e s o f t h e r u li n g p a r t y in t h o s e p o s ts . H a v e I g o t
it c o r r e c t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s g e n e r a ll y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a g e n e r a l ly.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t is w h a t – t h a t is w h a t i t i s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

She says in the last sentence of

paragraph 23 Mr Zuma:
“ D i r e c t o r s h i p s o n B o a r d s s h o u ld n e v e r b e g r a n te d
20

t o t h e fa v o u r e d f e w a s a r e w a r d f o r lo y a l ty to a
p a r t y o r a f a c ti o n o f a p a r ty o r a s a r e tir e m e n t
b e n e fi t fo r t h e w e l l c o n n e c t e d . ”
H e r e v i d e n c e t h e r e i t s e e m s is t o s a y th a t s u c h a p p o i n t m e n t s
a s m a y b e d ir e c t e d o r s u g g e s t e d b y t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e s h o u l d
n e v e r b e g r a n te d a s a r e w a r d s i m p l y f o r l o y a l ty t o a p a r ty o r fa c ti o n o f

Page 23 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
a p a r ty. D o y o u h a v e a v i e w o n th a t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I think

o n c e a g a i n s h e is

e x p r e s s in g h e r v i e w s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

S h e i s e x p r e s s in g h e r v i e w s

b e c a u s e a s I w a s e x p l a i n in g t h e p a r ty c a n n o t ju s t a l lo w a s i tu a ti o n
w h e r e y o u t a k e a n y b o d y a n y w a y t h a t w e h a v e n o k n o w le d g e o f .

Now

t h o s e p e o p l e i n c lu d in g h e r t h e y – w h il s t t h e y a r e b e c a u s e o f t h e ir
lo y a lt y to t h e – t o th e p a r t y - to t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . T h e y b e li e v e i n th e
10

p o li c i e s o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n .
N o w w h o w il l s a y d e l ib e r a te ly l e t u s f o r g e t a b o u t t h o s e
p e o p l e a n d j u s t fi n d s o m e o t h e r p e o p le . I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e l o g ic .
CHAIRPERSON: I …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I a m e x p la in i n g t h i s b e c a u s e i t

maybe her own view because of certain cases. She may be aware of if
s u c h a t h in g h a p p e n e d . I t is n o t – i t is n o t m e a n t to ta k e y o u r fr i e n d s
t h is o n e i f y o u a r e a m e m b e r o f t h i s . Yo u d o n o t t a k e y o u r fr i e n d s . Yo u
lo o k a t – b e c a u s e t h e C o m m i t t e e d is c u s s e s i t w o u l d d is c u s s w h a t ty p e
o f a p e r s o n w e w a n t . I t is n o t g o i n g t o b e w h ic h fr i e n d w e t a k e .
I th i n k t h e p o i n t s h e i s m a k e – s h e is p u t ti n g a p o i n t h e r o w n

20

point because she might be having an experience of that nature but in
t e r m s o f t h e p r o c e s s i t i s n o t d o n e i n th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h s h e is p u t t in g
it .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e I c a n ju s t s a y M r Zu m a t h a t s o m e ti m e s a

w i t n e s s w il l b e e x p r e s s i n g h i s o r h e r v i e w b u t i t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t i f y o u

Page 24 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
k n o w – y o u h a v e k n o w l e d g e i n r e l a t i o n t o th e – t h a t i s s u e t o i n d ic a te
w h e t h e r t h a t v i e w is c o r r e c t o r i s ju s t i fi e d o r n o t b u t y o u m a y e l e c t t h a t
y o u d o n o t w a n t t o e n t e r i n to t h a t b u t I a m ju s t s a y in g t h a t b e c a u s e t h e
w a y t h i s i s p u t h e r e s u g g e s ts t h a t t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e m i g h t n o t
b e d o i n g w h a t y o u h a v e t e s ti fi e d i t i s d o i n g .
Yo u h a v e s a id t h a t t h e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e lo o k s a t p e o p l e
w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n s w h o h a v e c e r ta in s k il ls .

So that when there

a r e p o s i ti o n s i n G o v e r n m e n t t h a t n e e d t o b e f il le d th e y a r e a b l e t o s a y
t o M i n is te r s h e r e a r e s o m e n a m e s .
10

W e a r e n o t s a y in g y o u m u s t ta k e

t h e m . W e s a y t h e y m u s t g o t h r o u g h th e n o r m a l a p p o in t m e n t p r o c e s s e s
a n d – a n d u l ti m a t e l y t h e G o v e r n m e n t f u n c t io n a r i e s m a k e t h e d e c is io n s .
T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t y o u r e v id e n c e s a y s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm , yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h is s e n te n c e s u g g e s ts t h a t h e r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is
t h a t p e o p l e w h o m i g h t n o t b e d e s e r v i n g t o b e a p p o in t e d to c e r t a in
p o s i ti o n s a r e s u g g e s t e d o r p u t f o r w a r d b y th e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t te e
f o r t h e – f o r th e r e a s o n s t h a t s h e g iv e s a n d s h e s a y s :
“ I t is a f a v o u r e d f e w, a s a r e w a r d fo r l o y a l t y to a
p a r t y b y fa c t i o n o f a p a r ty, o r a s a r e tir e m e n t

20

b e n e fi t fo r t h e w e l l- c o n n e c t e d . ”
S o I – I a m j u s t p u t ti n g t h a t b e c a u s e it m a y b e i m p o r t a n t f o r
t h e b i g g e r p ic t u r e fo r t h e C o m m i s s io n t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is t h e r o l e o f
t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e a n d h a v e t w o fa c t s .

So I thought I would

ju s t e x p l a in t h a t . O b v i o u s l y y o u c a n d e c i d e w h e n y o u s a y w e ll I w a n t to
e n g a g e w i th t h a t v ie w b e c a u s e I th i n k i t is n o t c o r r e c t o r i t i s n o t

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
ju s t i fi e d a b o u t th e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e o r a b o u t w h a t e v e r o r y o u
m i g h t s a y lo o k I d o n o t – I d o n o t – I h a v e n o c o m m e n t o r s o m e t h i n g
b u t y o u d o n o t h a v e t o a d d a n y t h i n g n o w t h a t I h a v e s a id t h i s u n le s s
you want to.
I w a s j u s t w a n ti n g to m a k e s u r e t h a t a s w e m o v e fo r w a r d y o u
– y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t m a y b e i m p o r ta n t s o m e ti m e s to e n g a g e o r g i v e
a view in regard to another view but you – you might say no I do not
w a n t to . I h a v e n o c o m m e n t . O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

T h a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

t h i n k th e – t h e la s t s e n te n c e i s v e r y c l e a r.

S h e h a s v ie w s .

I

She –

m a y b e s h e h a s s o m e e x p e r i e n c e a n d th e n s h e i s s a y in g lo o k w h e n w e
d o t h i s s e l e c ti o n i t m u s t n o t b e b a s e d o n - o n t h e s e t h i n g s th a t s h e is
t a lk in g a b o u t b u t fo r e x a m p l e t h e w a y s h e is p u tt i n g i t m u s t n o t b e a n
a w a r d fo r l o y a l ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u m ig h t s a y y o u a g r e e w i t h th a t o r n o t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o C h a ir I a m – I a m ju s t

making the point.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I f y o u s a y i t m u s t n o t b e l o y a lt y
20

t o t h e p a r ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W h y s h o u l d y o u n o – n o t ta k e

p e o p l e w h o a r e n o t lo y a l to t h e p a r ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: If they have …

Page 26 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S k i lls a n d e v e r y t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Yo u k n o w t h e m .

They are

p e o p l e w h o i n t e r a c t a ll th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Why must we say no because

y o u a r e l o y a l t o th e p a r t y w e a r e n o t t a k in g y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e l l y o u – y o u m ig h t s a y i t w o u ld b e w r o n g t o s a y

s o m e b o d y m u s t b e a p p o i n te d s i m p ly o n t h e b a s i s o f lo y a l ty t o t h e p a r ty
a n d o n n o o t h e r b a s is …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i f l o y a lt y to t h e p a r ty is o n e o f a n u m b e r o f

f a c to r s in c l u d i n g q u a l if ic a ti o n s , e x p e r i e n c e a n d w h a te v e r t h e n y o u –
you might have – you might have – you might say there is nothing
w r o n g w i t h t h a t. I a m n o t s u r e .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ye s a b s o l u t e ly t r u e .

I am not

n e c e s s a r i ly s a y in g a l l o t h e r e le m e n ts t h a t s h e is p u t t in g h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Yo u s h o u ld .

T h e fa c t t h a t s h e

s h o u l d – it s h o u l d n o t a ls o b e lo y a l ty t o t h e fa c t i o n e t c e t e r a .
e x p r e s s in g a v i e w.

S h e is

S h e m u s t b e h a v in g a p a r ti c u l a r e x p e r i e n c e

b e c a u s e i n d e e d y o u - y o u c a n n o t h a v e a – a k in d o f a G o v e r n m e n t
w h ic h i s b a s e d o n f a c t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 27 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t is n o t t h e is s u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I a m n o t s a y i n g t h e s t a te m e n t is
wrong …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: But …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: It is her view because she must
h a v e c o m e a c r o s s s o m e th i n g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I am sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I am saying those people look

a t t h e c a p a b i li t ie s a n d s u i t a b il i ty ’s o f p e o p l e n o t w h e th e r t h i s p e r s o n
a g r e e s w i t h m e p o li ti c a ll y o r w h a t e v e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

J u s t t o s u m m a r is e t h e n .

As I

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d Mr Z u m a a b o u t t h e is s u e o f l o y a l ty i s
t h a t l o y a l ty i s a n in d i c a t o r o f th e w il li n g n e s s a n d a b i li ty to i m p l e m e n t
t h e p o li c i e s o f t h e r u l in g p a r t y.
20

Do I understand your evidence

c o r r e c t ly ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o I – I a m n o t s a y i n g lo y a l ty

c o v e r s a ll o f t h o s e e l e m e n ts .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I s i t p a r t o f it ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h a t is w h y – t h a t is w h y I m a d e
a v e r y b r o a d p o in t a s a n e x a m p le th a t t h e r e is n o p a r ty i n t h e w o r l d

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
t h a t w i n s e le c ti o n s a n d t h e n fo r g e ts a b o u t th e s u p p o r t e r s a n d t h e
p e o p l e a n d lo o k f o r o th e r p e o p le w h o d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y a r e
going to sabotage your work in order to make you to lose the next
e l e c ti o n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

A lr i g h t .

C a n w e m o v e o n th e n t o

w h a t i s s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h s 2 4 a n d 2 5 ? I a m n o t s u r e i t is a p p r o p r ia t e
t o e n t e r in t o a n h i s t o r ic a l d e b a t e a b o u t t h e is s u e s r a is e d b y M s H o g a n
in p a r a g r a p h s 2 4 a n d 2 5 a n d I w il l tr y a n d s u m m a r is e i t a n d i f y o u w is h
t o ta k e y o u r ti m e t o r e a d t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s p le a s e d o s o b u t w h a t s h e
10

h a s s a i d is t h a t a f te r t h e P o l o k w a n e C o n f e r e n c e w h i c h s h e d e s c r ib e s a s
d iv is iv e th e r e w e r e f a c t io n s w i th i n t h e A N C a n d t h e s e f a c t io n a l b a tt l e s
a s s h e c a lls t h e m i n t h e A N C h a d a n e ff e c t o n w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d . S h e
says her own words are:
“ T h e s e f a c t io n a l b a t t le s i n th e A N C o n ly s e r v e d to
e n c o u r a g e a n d e n tr e n c h n e p o tis m a n d p a tr o n a g e
fr o m w i t h i n t h e r a n k s o f th e A N C a n d t h e Tr i p a r t i te
A ll i a n c e ,

and

this

w o u ld

have

very

d a m a g in g

c o n s e q u e n c e s fo r S O E s a n d o u r e c o n o m y. ”
I f o n e t a k e s – e x p r e s s e d i n a m o r e n e u tr a l f a s h i o n I t h i n k
20

w h a t s h e is s a y i n g a n d w o u l d i n v i t e y o u r c o m m e n t o n M r Zu m a is t h a t
t h e r e w e r e f a c ti o n s i n t h e A N C a ft e r P o lo k w a n e a n d t h a t m e m b e r s h i p o f
o r l o y a l ty t o o n e o r o t h e r f a c ti o n w a s a f a c to r in t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f
p e o p l e t o S O E B o a r d s a n d p o s i t io n s a n d t h a t w a s d a m a g i n g t o t h o s e
S O E s a n d t h e e c o n o m y. T h a t is s a n i t is e d o f t h e l a n g u a g e w h a t I t h in k
is b e i n g s a i d .

Page 29 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Well Chair I am not sure how

d e e p w e g e t i n to t h e s e i s s u e s .

I w a s t r y i n g t o in d i c a t e t h a t s h e i s

e x p r e s s in g h e r o w n v ie w s h e r e .

I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I s h o u ld n o w

d e b a te t h o s e v i e w s b e c a u s e i t is n o t tr u e a f t e r P o l o k w a n e .

I t is n o t

tr u e t h a t p e o p l e e n tr e n c h e d t h e ir o w n s id e s . It is n o t tr u e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

There

is

evidence

that

c o m r a d e s t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n o p p o s i te s i d e s i n te r ms o f
s u p p o r t in g a c a n d i d a t e .
10

T h e y w e r e p u t i n t h e s e s tr u c t u r e s o f

G o v e r n m e n t a n d o th e r p la c e s . I t is n o t tr u e . I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I
a m k e e n to d e b a t e h e r v i e w s .

I w a s t r y i n g t o r u n a w a y fr o m t h i s

because …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S h e is e x p r e s s i n g h e r v i e w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l le t m e s a y t h is t h a t a s y o u w il l h a v e s e e n w h e n
y o u r e a d h e r s t a te m e n t …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

L a te r o n s h e t a lk s a b o u t m a y b e t o p u t n e u tr a l ly

c e r t a i n c h a ll e n g e s t h a t s h e s a y s s h e m e t w i t h i n t r y i n g t o h a v e C E O s
20

a p p o i n t e d t o c e r ta i n S O E s a n d – a n d B o a r d s a n d i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t i n
s a y in g t h i s s h e is tr y i n g to i n d ic a te t h a t t h e s e p r o b l e m s o f f a c t io n s
a ffe c te d - u l ti m a t e l y a ff e c t e d m a y b e g o v e r n a n c e i n S O E s a n d s o o n .
S o I – I a m j u s t s a y in g t h a t a t t h i s s t a g e b u t I a m – I a m q u i te
happy to leave it to you when you are given a chance to comment to
m a k e y o u r j u d g m e n t a t t h i s s t a g e i f y o u d o n o t t h i n k i t is – i t i s

Page 30 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
i m p o r t a n t b u t a n d – a n d M r Pr e to r i u s i f h e f e e l s th a t h e – h e – i t is
i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e y o u r v i e w s h e – h e w il l i n d ic a t e b u t t h e f ir s t
o p p o r t u n i ty i s t o g e t – fo r y o u t o g e t a c h a n c e t o s a y o h t h is is w h a t
t h is w it n e s s is s a y i n g a n d t h is i s w h a t I h a v e to – I h a v e t o s a y a b o u t
t h a t i f I h a v e a n y th in g .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o my p r o b l e m C h a ir i s t h a t

h e r e is a r e p o r t to – to t h e C o m m i s s io n . I t g e ts in t o s o m e h a p p e n in g s
10

in t h e p a r ty a n d th e y a r e n o t a c c u r a t e . T h e y a r e n o t a c c u r a te . W e w il l
e n d u p n o w d is c u s s i n g t h e A N C p o li t ic s b e c a u s e I d o n o t - if – i f y o u
p u t t h a t s t a te m e n t g e n e r a l ly y o u h a v e g o t t o d o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Yo u r s e l e c t io n fa ir l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : P a r tl y i t c a n n o t b e t h a t a s – a s
f o r a n e x a m p l e th e D e p l o y m e n t C o m m i t t e e i t is a C o m m i t t e e .

Yo u

c a n n o t h a v e t h a t C o m m i t t e e w it h a l m o s t e v e r y b o d y c o m i n g fr o m a
p a r t ic u l a r f a c ti o n . I t c a n n o t b e . P e o p l e t h e r e a r e – t h e y – t h e y a r e n o t
20

appointed on the basis of that.

T h e y a r e a c t u a ll y a p p o i n t e d b y t h e

s tr u c t u r e s .
Yo u k n o w f ir s t ly t h e – t h e r e is a w o r k i n g C o m m i t t e e t h a t t h is
lo o k s a t t h is t h e n t h e N E C th a t a p p o i n ts th e s e p e o p l e o f th e
D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e . Yo u c a n n o t s a y t h e w h o l e N E C is a f a c ti o n a n d
t h e r e f o r e it h a s a p p o in t e d it s f a c t io n . I a m n o t s u r e w e w a n t t o g e t in t o

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t h o s e d i s c u s s io n s . T h a t is w h y I k e p t o n s a y in g l o o k in g s h e is m o r e o r
le s s e x p r e s s i n g h e r o w n v ie w s . S h e w a s p a r t o f th e p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I am not sure we want to debate
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l le t m e – le t m e s a y – s a y t h i s . T h e – th e A N C is
t h e r u li n g p a r t y a n d h a s b e e n th e r u l i n g p a r t y s in c e 1 9 9 4 .

It may be

t h a t c e r t a i n th in g s t h a t i t d o e s o r c e r ta i n t h i n g s i t d o e s n o t d o m a y b e
s a i d t o a ff e c t G o v e r n m e n t in c e r t a in w a y s . W it h t h a t u n d e r s t a n d in g i t is
10

p o s s i b le t h a t th e r e a r e c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h a t a r e r e a ll y p a r t y th i n g s . T h a t
a r e A N C t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n m i g h t h a v e t o lo o k – l o o k a t i n s o f a r a s it
c a n b e s a id t h a t t h e y m a y h a v e h a d o r th e y m a y h a v e a b e a r in g o n h o w
G o v e r n m e n t h a s b e e n w o r k i n g o r h o w i t h a s d e a l t w it h c e r t a i n th in g s .
S o I ju s t w a n t t o m e n t i o n th a t .

I t m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t .

There

m i g h t b e d i ff e r e n t v i e w s a s t o w h i c h o n e f a l ls le g it i m a t e ly w i t h i n th a t
a m b i t w h ic h o n e f a l ls o u ts id e b u t I ju s t w a n t to s a y i t m i g h t b e t h a t ju s t
b e c a u s e c e r t a i n t h i n g s a r e th i n g s th a t h a p p e n w i t h i n t h e A N C i t m a y b e
t h a t t h e y c a n n o t b e e x c l u d e d c o m p l e te ly b e c a u s e o f t h e s t a tu s o f t h e
A N C b e i n g t h e r u l in g p a r ty b u t o b v i o u s ly s o m e w h e r e o n e m u s t d r a w –
20

d r a w t h e li n e .
S o I – I t h in k th a t I w o u l d l e a v e it t o M r P r e to r i u s t o s e e h o w
it d e a l s w i t h i t b u t I t h i n k w h a t – w h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n – w h a t o n e
w o u ld b e l o o k i n g a t is t h a t a n d w h a t e v e r y b o d y w o u l d b e l o o k i n g a t is
that

as

the

former

P r e s id e n t

of

the

ANC

you

would

be

very

k n o w l e d g e a b le a b o u t i ts s tr u c t u r e s a n d p r o c e s s e s a n d th e r e fo r e y o u

Page 32 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
a r e i n a p o s i ti o n to e n li g h te n th e C o m m i s s i o n o n a n y t h i n g .
I f t h e r e a r e v i e w s th a t a r e e x p r e s s e d w h i c h d o n o t c o r r e c tl y
r e fl e c t t h e A N C y o u a r e i n a p o s i ti o n to s a y n o th a t is n o t t h e A N C .
T h i s is t h e A N C ’s p o s i ti o n a n d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t th e A N C – w h e r e y o u
t h i n k th e A N C n e e d s t o b e d e fe n d e d i n r e g a r d t o h o w i t is i m p a c ti n g o n
Government it maybe that you would do that.

Maybe that it is

s o m e b o d y e ls e . I a m n o t s u r e .
S o I w o u l d l e a v e i t to M r Pr e to r i u s to s e e h o w f a r h e ta k e s i t
b u t a s l o n g a s y o u k n o w t h a t w h e n e v e r t h e s e q u e s ti o n s a r e p u t t o y o u
10

fir s t a n d fo r e m o s t i t i s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m m e n t i f y o u – y o u t h i n k y o u
should and if you do not think you want to comment then you can say
that.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Fo r a n e x a m p l e s h e q u o t e s a

p a r t ic u l a r c o n fe r e n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o w i t i s n o t tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A ls o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Th is p r o c e s s is v e r y t h o r o u g h .

I f fo r e x a m p le y o u t a l k a b o u t s e le c ti n g o th e r H e a d s o f D e p a r t m e n t

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
w h a t e v e r - w h a t e v e r a r e th e p r o c e s s e s e v e n i f th e p r o c e s s s ta r t e d w i th
t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e o n c e t h e M i n i s t e r i f y o u t a k e t h e D G h a s
g o n e t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s .

Fir s t ly i t i s a C o m m i t t e e t h a t s i ts to

in t e r v ie w a n d th e r e w o u ld b e s c o r i n g a t th e p o i n ts a s th e y i n t e r v i e w a n d
y o u c a n n o t s a y s o m e b o d y w h o h a s s c o r e d v e r y p o o r l y b e c a u s e h e is m y
– h e i s i n m y f a c ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o s o r r y a b o u t h is w o r k w o u l d I
w a n t t h is o n e . I t is n e v e r d o n e . It is t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e
10

s i tt i n g th e r e w h o m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r ily b e in o n e g r o u p in g p o l i tic a lly
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e lo o k in g a t a r e w e g e t ti n g t h e r i g h t p e r s o n .
p r o c e s s is ta k e n t o t h e – t h i s C o m m i t t e e is s m a l l .

Th a t

W h a t th e n t h e y

r e c o m m e n d fi n a l ly i s t a k e n t o t h e C a b i n e t C o m m i t t e e a n d th e C a b in e t
Committee is – is a big Committee.
T h e Pr e s i d e n t , t h e D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t p a r ti c i p a te s i n t h o s e
d is c u s s io n s d i s c u s s in g th e s e v e r y in d iv id u a ls .

T h e n t h e C a b in e t

C o m m i t t e e r e c o m m e n d s t o t h e C a b i n e t t h a t – th a t p e r s o n w h e r e v e r th a t
p e r s o n s t a r t e d w il l e n d u p b e i n g d is c u s s e d b y th e C a b in e t to t a k e t h e
fi n a l d e c is io n .
20

So I do not know how do you succeed to have your

c li q u e w i th y o u b e c a u s e t h e s e p e o p l e w h o a r e m e e ti n g h e r e t h e y m a y
h a v e d i ff e r e n t v i e w s a b o u t t h e s e m a t t e r s .
T h e y a r e l o o k i n g a t t h e c a p a b il it y o f t h e c a n d i d a t e a n d i t i s
d is c u s s e d t h e r e n o w w i th th e e n ti r e C a b in e t. I n f a c t th e r e is a s e r i o u s
d e b a te e v e n d is c u s s i n g i n d i v i d u a ls i n t h e C a b in e t . S o m e p e o p l e w o u ld
s a y lo o k t h i s c a n d i d a te is n o t r i g h t .

I know these are the witnesses’

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
e tc e t e r a .

A t ti m e s t h e C a b i n e t w i ll s a y w e a r e n o t a c c e p t i n g t h is

c a n d i d a t e . I t is n o t j u s t l ik e a s y o u – y o u p ic k a n d w a lk . Th e p r o c e s s
is t h o r o u g h . Th a t i s t h e p o i n t I a m j u s t m a k in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I – I t h i n k – I th in k t h a t w a y o f r e s p o n d i n g

p r o b a b ly i s i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i n e ff e c t I t h i n k y o u – y o u a r e s a y i n g s h e
m a y b e s a y i n g th e s e th in g s b e c a u s e o f c e r ta i n s p e c i fic i n s t a n c e s t h a t
she knows of but you are – you are saying your understanding and your
e x p e r i e n c e o f h o w t h e D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e a n d G o v e r n m e n t h a n d le s
t h e s e t h i n g s is t h e f o l l o w in g . S o y e s th a n k y o u . M r Pr e to r i u s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I a m a b o u t to m o v e t o a n e w t o p ic .
I t is 1 4 m i n u te s p a s t . I s t h i s a c o n v e n i e n t ti m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t h a l f
p a s t 11 . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e Mr P r e t o r i u s p r o c e e d s I j u s t w a n t t o g o b a c k

t o a n is s u e t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h e a r li e r a b o u t l o y a lt y to a p a r ty a n d
a p p o i n t m e n ts .
20

Yo u p o s e d a q u e s t i o n a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u

e x p r e s s e d a v i e w, a n d I w a n t t o e s t a b l is h t h a t , y o u p o s e d a q u e s t io n a s
t o w h y l o y a l ty t o t h e p a r t y s h o u l d n o t c o u n t i n a n a p p o in t m e n t , w h e t h e r
s o m e b o d y s h o u l d b e a p p o in t e d .

D id I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t p a r t c o r r e c t ly

t h a t y o u p o s e d a q u e s t io n a l o n g t h o s e li n e s , o r d i d I m is u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I d i d n o t p o s e a q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h d id y o u e x p r e s s a v i e w ?

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I w a s j u s t e x p l a in in g w h a t

happens.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

B e c a u s e th a t ’s a u n iv e r s a l

thing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : P a r ti e s c a n n o t t a k e p e o p le w h o
h a v e - w h o d o n o t li k e p a r t y t o c o m e a n d w o r k f o r th e g o v e r n m e n t o f
t h a t p a r t y, t h a t ’s a p o in t I w a s j u s t m a k in g .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , m a y b e l e t m e j u s t a s k i s it y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g

t h a t lo y a l ty t o th e r u li n g p a r ty o r a p o l i ti c a l p a r ty s h o u l d b e a f a c t o r in
a p p o i n t m e n ts th a t a r e m a d e i n g o v e r n m e n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I a m n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s a y i n g
t h a t s h o u l d b e t h e c a s e , I a m s a y i n g p o li ti c a l p a r t ie s , g lo b a l ly, o n c e
t h e y w i n e le c ti o n s t h e y t a k e t h e ir p e o p l e t o t h e g o v e r n m e n t t o p l a c e
t h e m , b e c a u s e t h o s e p e o p le a r e e x p e c t e d t o i m p l e m e n t th e p o lic i e s , s o
lo y a lt y g o e s w i t h o u t s a y in g , i t i s n o t th e o n ly, b u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n y o u
c a n n o t t a k e s o m e b o d y w h o is a p r o f e s s io n a l , w h o i s w i ll in g t o
p a r t ic ip a t e in g o v e r n m e n t .
20

I w a s j u s t d e a li n g w i t h i t in s o f a r a s it

appears here as a point that was made.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o I t h i n k I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o s a y l o y a l ty t o a

p a r t y s h o u l d n e v e r b e th e o n ly fa c t o r.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p a r t I u n d e r s t a n d . T h e q u e s t io n I a s k is w h e t h e r
it s h o u l d b e a f a c t o r a t a l l , w h e t h e r y o u . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )

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M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o t h a t ’s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , a n d I’ m s i m p ly a s k i n g i t b e c a u s e y o u a n d I h a d a n
e n g a g e m e n t e a r l ie r o n a r o u n d t h a t , a n d I t h o u g h t y o u h a d a s k e d t h e
q u e s t io n w h y s h o u ld i t n o t b e – w h y s h o u ld it n o t b e c o n s i d e r e d , b u t I
t h i n k y o u h a v e s a i d n o y o u w e r e n o t a s k i n g a q u e s ti o n , s o th e n I t h in k
m a y b e i t mi g h t b e g o o d b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y e ls e m ig h t h a v e u n d e r s t o o d
t h e w a y th a t I u n d e r s t o o d , i t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t if y o u h a v e v i e w o n
t h a t t o m a k e i t c l e a r w h a t y o u r v ie w is a n d – b e c a u s e i t l e a d s t o t h e
q u e s t io n o f w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e x p e c t e d o f g o v e r n m e n t m in is t e r s ,
10

a n d t h e P r e s id e n t h i m s e l f , a n d t h e D e p u t y P r e s id e n t w h o s i ts o n t h e
D e p lo y m e n t C o m m i t t e e , w h e n a m o n g t h e n a m e s th a t th e y s e e f o r a
p a r t ic u l a r p o s t th e y s e e s o m e b o d y t h a t c o m e s f r o m t h e d e p l o y m e n t
c o m m i t t e e , w e r e th e y e x p e c t e d t o t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t t h a t t h i s m u s t b e a
lo y a l – th is m u s t b e s o m e b o d y w i t h l o y a l ty to th e p a r t y o r w e r e th e y n o t
s u p p o s e d to , a n d y o u c a n a n s w e r in t e r m s o f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w h ic h
m a y b e r i g h t, w h i c h m a y b e w r o n g b u t y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g w i t h th e
e x p e r i e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e b o t h i n th e A N C a n d i n g o v e r n m e n t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No what I was saying, I was not
s a y in g t h a t it s h o u l d b e o n e o f th e th i n g s th a t y o u s a i d fo r i t d o e s n o t

20

e v e n a r is e g e n e r a lly in t h e d i s c u s s i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts y e s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e p r o b l e m s t h a t i t is h e r e a s
if it is a b ig f a c t o r, it is n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h a t’s w h y I – r a t h e r t h a n t o g e t

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
in t o t h e d e ta ils I w a s s a y i n g a l l p a r ti e s i n t h e w o r ld w h e n t h e y w i n
e l e c ti o n s t h e y b r i n g p e o p l e th e y tr u s t , p e o p l e w h o a r e l o y a l to t h e
p a r t y, p e o p l e w h o h a v e g o t p r o f e s s i o n s , it ’s n o t a fa c t o r, i t ’s n o t th e
o n ly f a c t o r. I n f a c t i n th e d i s c u s s io n s y o u w il l fi n d th a t th is is s u e h a s
n e v e r a r is e n a r e y o u l o y a l t o t h e A N C , y o u c a n ’ t .

Th a t ’s w h y I w a s

s a y in g t h e s e a r e i n d i v i d u a l v i e w s p e r h a p s e m a n a t i n g fr o m i n d iv id u a l
e x p e r i e n c e s I d o n ’ t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y w e l l a s y o u e x p l a i n e d n o w I h a d s o m e

t h i n g s t o t h e e ff e c t , i t’s n o t t h e o n ly f a c to r, s o I g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n
10

w h e t h e r a s f a r a s y o u k n o w w i t h y o u r e x p e r i e n c e in t h e A N C , w i t h y o u r
e x p e r i e n c e i n g o v e r n m e n t, i s i t s o m e th i n g – w a s i t o n e o f th e f a c t o r s
t h a t a t l e a s t t h e A N C a s t h e r u li n g p a r ty e x p e c t e d g o v e r n m e n t m i n i s te r s
a n d th e Pr e s i d e n t a n d D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t , t o h a v e r e g a r d t o w h e n t h e y
s e l e c t w h o s h o u l d f il l c e r ta i n p o s it i o n s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t n e c e s s a r i ly ?
MR

JACOB

GEDLEYIHLEKISA

ZUMA:

When

for

an

e x a m p le

a d v e r t is e m e n ts a r e m a d e f o r a p a r ti c u la r p o s i ti o n , m a n y c it iz e n s i n t h e
c o u n tr y, s o m e o f w h o m w e d o n ’ t e v e n k n o w t h e y b e l o n g t o w h i c h p a r ty
20

o r th e y b e li e v e i n w h a t p o li c y, t h e y a p p ly a n d t h e y g o t h r o u g h t h e
p r o c e s s , n o o n e in th a t k i n d o f i n t e r v i e w a s k t h e p o li t ic a l is s u e s , i t
d o e s n o t f e a t u r e , i t i s a s a g iv e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . O k a y th a n k y o u . M r P r e to r i u s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Thank you.

Mr Zuma on page

4 0 5 , p a r a g r a p h 2 8 a n d f o l l o w in g M s H o g a n r e la t e s h e r e x p e r i e n c e s i n

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r e l a ti o n t o Tr a n s n e t , a n d a p p o in t m e n ts w i t h i n Tr a n s n e t a n d c e r ta in o f
t h e d e t a i l o f h e r n a r r a t iv e m e n t io n s e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h y o u r s e lf a n d I
t h e r e f o r e n e e d t o p u t t h e m t o y o u fo r y o u r c o m m e n t .

Just by way of

b a c k g r o u n d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 M s H o g a n r e f e r s t o th e r e s i g n a ti o n o f M s
M a r i a R a m o s a s C E O o f Tr a n s n e t in F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 9 . S h e t h e n s a y s th a t
t h e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d , a f te r a c a r e f u l s e l e c t io n p r o c e s s , a n d e x te n s iv e
e n g a g e m e n t w it h t h e t h e n Mi n is te r o f P u b lic E n t e r p r is e s , Br ig i t te
M a b a n d l a , r e c o m m e n d e d Pr a v i n G o r d h a n .

D o y o u k n o w o f th o s e

e v e n t s , i t ’s n o t n e c e s s a r y to g o i n t o a n y d e ta il b u t j u s t b y w a y o f
10

b a c k g r o u n d t o w h a t fo ll o w s ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k t h a t h a p p e n e d j a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , a n d s h e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h
3 0 a w e e k l a te r M r G o r d h a n w i t h d r e w h is c a n d i d a tu r e a n d s e v e r a l
m o n th s la t e r h e b e c a m e th e M i n is te r o f F i n a n c e . T h a t a g a in b y w a y o f
background.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w h a t s h e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h
3 0 is th a t w h a t s h e d e s c r ib e s a s a f ic ti o n a r o s e a t t h e t i m e w h ic h w a s
u n tr u e t h a t S iy a b o n g a

20

G a m a , Mr

Gama, then CEO

o f Tr a n s n e t

Fr e i g h tr a il w a s s e c o n d o n t h e l is t o f p r e fe r r e d c a n d i d a te s fo r th e
p o s i ti o n o f Tr a n s n e t C E O . S h e s a y s t h e r e w a s n o s u c h p r e fe r e n ti a l li s t.
D o y o u k n o w a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e r e w a s n o ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Pr e fe r e n ti a l lis t . S h e s a y s t h a t
a t t h e ti m e t h e r e w a s a b e li e f o r a n u n d e r s t a n d in g a m o n g s t s o m e , a

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fi c t i o n s h e s a y s , t h a t t h e r e w a s a lis t o f p r e fe r r e d c a n d i d a t e s a n d t h a t
s e c o n d o n t h a t li s t w a s M r G a m a , d o y o u k n o w a n y th in g a b o u t t h a t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s , I r e m e m b e r t h a t ja .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I ’ m s o r r y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I s a y I r e m e m b e r t h a t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o w d o y o u s a y t h e r e w a s s u c h
a li s t, s h e s a y s th e r e w a s n o s u c h l is t .

If you let me just ask you to

lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 3 0 a n d r e a d to y o u w h a t s h e s a y s .
“ A f ic t io n a r o s e a t th a t t i m e w h ic h w a s u n tr u e t h a t S i y a b o n g a
10

G a m a , Mr G a m a , t h e n C E O o f T F R [t h a t’s Tr a n s n e t Fr e ig h tr a i l ]
w a s s e c o n d o n th e li s t o f p r e f e r r e d c a n d i d a te s fo r t h e p o s i ti o n
o f Tr a n s n e t C E O . T h e r e w a s n o s u c h p r e f e r e n t ia l l is t . ”
Do you have a comment?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

W e ll I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r t h e

d e t a i ls o f w h o w a s in t h e li s t o r n o t b u t a ll I k n o w i s th a t G a m a h i m s e l f
h a d a ls o a p p li e d a n d I k n o w t h a t Mr G o r d h a n a s w e l l s o w h e n h e
w i t h d r e w h is c a n d id a t u r e , a n d I t h i n k t h e d i s c u s s i o n w a s t h i s – t h e
s e c o n d o n e , i n s t e a d o f s t a r t in g a n o t h e r p r o c e s s , b e c a u s e G a m a w a s
k n o w n , h e h a d w o r k e d t h e r e f o r a lo n g t i m e , h is c a p a b il it i e s a n d
20

e v e r y t h i n g , a n d i n th e p r o c e s s t h o s e w h o w e r e d o i n g th e p r o c e s s f e l t
t h a t h e r e is a m a n w h o w i ll fi t i n i n t o th is k in d o f s i tu a ti o n . T h e r e w a s
t h e n I th i n k a b i t o f a d i s c u s s i o n , y o u k n o w p e o p l e w h o w a n t e d t h a t w e
s h o u l d h a v e a n o t h e r r o u n d o r s o m e t h in g , b u t a t t h e e n d t h e – t h i s
p r o c e s s t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t th a t m a n y p e o p l e g e t in v o lv e d th e v i e w
– th e v i e w i n th e p r o c e s s w a s t h a t b u t t h is m a n w e k n o w h i m , h e h a s

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b e e n w o r k in g h e r e , h e is c a p a b l e e n o u g h , a n d th e n a t th e e n d I t h i n k
t h e r e w a s k i n d o f a s tr o n g e r v i e w t h a t n o le t u s t a k e th e d e c i s i o n th a t
w e s h o u l d ta k e h i m .
I t w a s a p r o c e s s o f t h e d is c u s s i o n , p a r t ic u la r ly fr o m I t h i n k t h e
C a b in e t C o m m i t t e e e v e n to t h e C a b i n e t , s o i t w a s a d is c u s s io n , i t w a s
n o t o n e p e r s o n ta lk in g to t h e o th e r, i t w a s t h a t p r o c e s s I t a lk e d a b o u t
t h a t p r o d u c e d t h a t r e s u l t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t , t h a t w o u l d h a v e o c c u r r e d
s h o r tl y b e fo r e o r a f t e r M a y 2 0 0 9 . Yo u s a y t h e r e w a s d is c u s s i o n a b o u t
10

t h e n e x t i n li n e , M r G a m a , b e i n g a p p o i n t e d t o t h e p o s i ti o n .

But she

s a y s s o m e t h in g i n p a r a g r a p h 3 1 , a s f o ll o w s :
“ A f t e r M r G o r d h a n ’s w i t h d r a w a l . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M r P r e t o r i u s , y o u s a id h e s a id t h e n e x t in

li n e t h a t m i g h t s u g g e s t a s i f y o u a r e s a y i n g h e s a i d t h e n e x t o n t h e l is t ,
w h e r e a s h e s a i d h e d i d n ’ t – h e w o u l d n ’ t k n o w d e t a ils a b o u t t h e li s t s o
y o u m ig h t w is h to – y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e i n t e n d e d t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll w h a t d i d y o u s a y a b o u t Mr
G a m a b e i n g d i s c u s s e d in th e a b s e n c e o f Mr G o r d h a n ?

I understood

y o u s a i d t h a t h i s c a n d id a t u r e w a s r e c o m m e n d e d b y s o m e a s b e i n g t h e
20

n e x t p e r s o n f o r c o n s i d e r a t io n ? I d o n o t w a n t to g e t in t o a d e b a t e a b o u t
in l i n e o r l is ts o r a n y t h in g . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

B e c a u s e h e h a d a p p li e d

himself.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : . . . th a t’s d is tr i c ti n g . S o r r y ?
MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja, he as far as I remember he

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
h a d a p p l i e d a s w e ll fo r t h e jo b , s o i n a s e n s e in t h e s e l e c t i o n
committee I think he was one of those who had applied.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d d id s o m e f e e l t h a t h e s h o u ld
in t h e a b s e n c e o f M r G o r d h a n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : . . . b e a p p o i n t e d t o t h e p o s t?
MR

JACOB

GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ye s , y e s , th a t ’s

what I

r e m e m b e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. T h e s e l e c t io n c o m m i t t e e
10

y o u ’r e r e fe r r i n g t o w h a t s e l e c ti o n c o m m i t te e a r e y o u r e f e r r in g t o ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e M in is t e r, t h e M i n is te r i f h e
o r s h e w a n t s to a p p o i n t a D G , s h e th e n f o r m s a p a n e l t h a t w i ll b e
in t e r v ie w in g p e o p l e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d – w o u l d t h a t b e , y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a D G
n o w, M r G a m a w a s n ’ t g o i n g t o b e a D G b u t y o u a r e m a k in g a n
example?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja, an example yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

I n t h e c a s e o f a D G w o u l d th a t s e l e c t io n c o m m i t t e e ,

t h a t t h e r e le v a n t m i n is t e r c r e a t e s o r e s t a b li s h e s w o u l d i t in c l u d e
c a b i n e t m i n i s te r s ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s , y e s , c a b i n e t m in is t e r s a n d
d e p u ty m in is t e r s a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w o u ld i t c o n s is t o n ly o f m e m b e r s o f t h e E x e c u t iv e
o r i t c o u l d i n c lu d e p e o p le o u ts i d e o f th e E x e c u tiv e ?

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

N o g e n e r a l ly p e o p le o f th e

E x e c u t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P e o p le o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e , o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n th e c a s e o f a D G ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o t o n ly t h e D G , e v e n b o a r d

members.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n b o a r d m e m b e r s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Even board members.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d C E O ’s . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B u t th e p r o c e s s i s t h e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d C E O ’s o f S O E ’s ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . Ye s M r Pr e t o r i u s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 3 1 , a g a i n b y w a y o f
b a c k g r o u n d Mr Z u m a , a n d t h a t is o n p a g e 4 0 6 , M s H o g a n s a i d :
“ A f t e r Mr G o r d h a n ’s w it h d r a w a l t h e B o a r d h a d d i ffi c u l ti e s
g e t t in g a f ir m d ir e c ti o n fr o m G o v e r n m e n t .

T h e y w a n te d t o

c o m m e n c e w i t h a n e w s e a r c h b u t c o u l d n o t g e t a n u n e q u iv o c a l
20

e n d o r s e m e n t t o d o t h i s . A t th is p o i n t t h e e le c t io n h a d b e g u n . ”
She does say that:
“ M i n i s t e r M a b a n d l a d id h o w e v e r a p p r o v e t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f
t h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o f Tr a n s n e t, M r C h r is W e l ls , a s th e
A c ti n g C E O o f Tr a n s n e t a n d A r n o t S i n g h , a Tr a n s n e t e m p l o y e e
a s th e Ac t in g C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ffi c e r o f Tr a n s n e t . ”

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A g a i n b y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t , d o y o u r e c a ll
t h is h a p p e n i n g ?
MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I’ m n o t s u r e b e c a u s e t h e

w i t h d r a w a l o f P r a v in b r o u g h t s o m e a c t iv it i e s , a n d I m i g h t n o t h a v e – I
m a y n o t r e m e m b e r e v e r y th i n g , b u t t h e r e w a s a c t iv i t ie s , th is m a y b e s o ,
it m a y n o t , b u t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e f u r th e r s e a r c h
10

it is s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h 3 2 o n p a g e 4 0 6 :
“ T h e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d n e v e r t h e l e s s e m b a r k e d o n a fu r th e r
s e a r c h a s t h e y f e l t t h a t t h e y c o u ld n o t a b a n d o n t h e ir f i d u c i a r y
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s .

O n t h e 1 8 t h o f J u n e 2 0 0 9 t h e Tr a n s n e t

C h a ir p e r s o n , Mr P h a s w a n a , m e t w i th m e a n d s u b m i t te d a
m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d 9 J u n e 2 0 0 9 , w h ic h w a s a n n e x e d to t h e
o r i g in a l s t a t e m e n t , w h ic h a m o n g s t o th e r t h i n g s r e c o m m e n d e d
t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a c a n d i d a te f o r t h e p o s i ti o n o f C E O . T h i s
w a s a h i g h l y c a p a b le a n d e x p e r i e n c e d b l a c k c a n d id a t e w h o
had
20

the

requisite

experience

and

a d m ir a b l e

managerial

c a p a b il it i e s . ”
I t s e e m s t h a t in t h i s n a r r a ti v e b e i n g r e l a te d h e r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a
f u r th e r s e a r c h e m b a r k e d u p o n b y t h e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d a n d t h i s r e s u l te d
in a m e m o r a n d u m b e in g s u b m i t t e d t o t h e M i n is t e r fo r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t
o f a h i g h l y e x p e r i e n c e d – c a p a b l e a n d e x p e r i e n c e d b l a c k c a n d id a t e . I t
a p p e a r s th a t th a t p e r s o n w a s S i p h o M a s e k o , d o y o u k n o w o f th a t ?

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W e l l I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly

n o w w h e t h e r – b u t th e n a m e S i p h o M a s e k o I r e m e m b e r, I c a n ’ t j u s t
r e m e m b e r t h e b a c k g r o u n d , t h e d e ta il s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s h e s a y s :
“ I t is i m p o r ta n t to n o t e th a t th e B o a r d h a d n o m i n a t e d o n ly o n e
c a n d i d a t e fo r t h e a p p o in t m e n t , t h a t is M r M a s e k o . ”
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hmm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t i f w e c o u l d g o t h e n
t o p a r a g r a p h 3 3 b e c a u s e t h i s n o w b e c o m e s d i r e c t ly r e l e v a n t t o y o u r
10

o w n i n v o lv e m e n t M r Z u m a . S h e s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 3 3 a t t h e b o t to m o f
page 406:
“ A p p r o x i m a te ly a m o n t h a f t e r my a p p o i n t m e n t a s t h e M i n i s t e r
o f D P E I m e t w i t h P r e s id e n t Z u m a a n d g a v e h i m a f u l l
b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t t h e d e v e lo p m e n ts in Tr a n s n e t .

I in f o r m e d

h i m t h a t t h e Tr a n s n e t A G M w a s c o m in g u p v e r y s o o n a n d t h a t a
G C E O a n d a C h a ir p e r s o n o f Tr a n s n e t w o u ld h a v e t o b e
a p p o i n t e d a s a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y.

I b r i e fe d h i m a b o u t th e

B o a r d ’s c a n d i d a t e o f c h o i c e w h o m I to o e n d o r s e d a n d t h e
e n q u ir y p o t e n t ia ll y i m p l ic a ti n g Mr G a m a . ”
20

Do you recall that engagement?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I d o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Is that a fair summary of what

w a s d is c u s s e d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Then in paragraph 34 on page

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
4 0 7 M s H o g a n s a y s t h e f o ll o w i n g :
“I

was

shocked

and

d is a p p o in t e d

when

P r e s id e n t

Zuma

in f o r m e d th a t h e w a s a d a m a n t th a t M r G a m a w a s h is o n l y
c h o ic e fo r G C E O .

I in f o r m e d h i m t h a t th a t w a s n o t p o s s i b l e

a n d t h a t M r G a m a w a s n o t t h e B o a r d ’s c h o ic e a n d I c o u ld n o t
o v e r r id e t h e B o a r d a s t h e y h a d u n d e r g o n e a v e r y p r o f e s s i o n a l
selection process.”
Do you have any comment about that?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : M a y I j u s t r e a d it .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P l e a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I don’t remember myself saying
these things.

H o w c o u l d I h a v e s a i d th is w h e n s o m e b o d y is b e i n g

c h a r g e d w i t h s e r io u s c h a r g e s , a n d I w o u l d s a y n o t a k e t h e p e r s o n , I
d o n ’t r e m e m b e r m e in s i s t i n g o n t h i s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e ll p e r h a p s i n fa ir n e s s w e

s h o u l d t a k e i t s t e p b y s t e p M r Z u m a . W h a t s h e s a y s i s a t t h a t m e e ti n g
y o u i n fo r m e d h e r t h a t Mr G a m a w a s y o u r o n ly c h o ic e f o r G C E O .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Was?
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r c h o i c e f o r G C E O .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o , I c a n ’ t r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t ju s t c h o i c e , y o u w e r e r i g h t , y o u r o n l y c h o ic e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t c o u l d n ’ t b e l ik e t h a t , w e d o n ’ t
w o r k l ik e t h a t .

As I s a y th e r e i s a p r o c e s s t h a t d e t e r m in e s h o w

b e c o m e s e it h e r t h e w i n n i n g c a n d i d a t e . W h e n – o r w h a t t h e M i n i s te r s a t

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
ti m e s d o t h e y w il l c o m e to t h e P r e s i d e n t ju s t t o b r i e f t h e Pr e s id e n t, a n d
o n ly t o d i s c u s s w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d d o t h i s o r n o t , a n d I a m n o t e v e n
f o n d o f m a k i n g s u c h d e te r m in e d s t a te m e n t s , I w o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d t h is ,
n o t a t a ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I j u s t w a n t to s a y t h is is o n e o f t h o s e p a r ts o f

h e r s t a t e m e n t w h e r e i t is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t t h a t y o u r a n s w e r b e th e
a n s w e r t h a t is r e a l ly t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o l le c ti o n b e c a u s e th e w a y
s h e h a s p u t i t is q u i t e e m p h a ti c a n d s o it is i m p o r ta n t to d is ti n g u is h
b e t w e e n y o u d o n ’ t r e c a ll a n d I d id n ’ t s a y it o r I c o u l d n ’ t h a v e s a i d i t , s o
10

t h a t o n e c a n u n d e r s ta n d i t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I t h i n k I w i ll s a y I c o u l d n o t

h a v e s a id t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d t h is ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B e c a u s e it m e a n s I w o u ld a ls o
b e u n d e r mi n in g t h e p r o c e s s i t s e l f, a t a le v e l w h e n t h e M in is t e r c o n s u l ts
y o u m i g h t e x p r e s s a v i e w o r n o t , b u t i t d o e s n o t d e t e r m i n e t h e fi n a l
d e c is i o n , b e c a u s e th e fi n a l d e c is io n m u s t b e a p r o d u c t o f th e p r o c e s s .
20

I w o u l d n o t h a v e s a id th is b e c a u s e I w o u l d h a v e b e e n s a y in g th is is m y
p e r s o n , fi n i s h e d , i t d o e s n o t w o r k l ik e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t c e r t a i n l y t h a t ’s t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t c o m e s o u t o f
that paragraph.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Not at all.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t o n e g e t s w h e n o n e r e a d s

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
t h a t p a r a g r a p h , t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h i s i s m y o n ly c h o ic e a n d y o u
w e r e n o t p r e p a r e d t o l o o k a t a n o th e r c a n d id a te . T h a t ’s m y i m p r e s s i o n
of what she is saying.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I c o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d s o ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , I u n d e r s t a n d t w o t h i n g s

fr o m y o u r a n s w e r Mr Z u m a , fi r s tl y t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d th a t ,
10

s e c o n d ly a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u s a i d t h a t a s t a te m e n t s u c h a s t h a t
w o u ld s h o w t h a t t h i s w a s a c o m p l e t e d e v ia ti o n f r o m t h e p r o p e r p r o c e s s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u te ly b e c a u s e I w o u l d b e
s a y in g t h e r e w a s n o n e e d fo r d is c u s s io n s . T h is i s a c h o ic e I ’v e m a d e
fi n i s h e d . N o . Th e p r o c e s s d o e s n ’t w o r k l i k e th a t
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I t f o ll o w s t h a t th e s e c o n d

s e n te n c e w o u l d a ls o n o t h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n b u t l e t m e
n o t m a k e a n y a s s u m p t i o n s a n d l e t m e p u t i t to y o u .

I informed him,

t h a t is M s H o g a n i n fo r m in g y o u r s e l f , t h a t t h a t w a s n o t p o s s ib l e a n d th a t
M r G a m a w a s n o t t h e B o a r d ’s c h o ic e a n d I c o u l d n o t o v e r r id e th e B o a r d
20

a s t h e y h a d u n d e r g o n e a v e r y p r o f e s s io n a l s e l e c ti o n p r o c e s s . D o y o u
r e c a l l th a t b e i n g s a i d a t t h e m e e ti n g ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n ’ t r e c a ll t h i s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

And then do you recall being

in f o r m e d t h a t Mr G a m a w a s t h e s u b je c t o f a n e n q u ir y ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?

Page 48 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u r e c a l l b e i n g i n fo r m e d b y
M s H o g a n a t t h a t m e e t in g th a t Mr G a m a w a s th e s u b j e c t o f a n i n q u i r y ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A : Ye s th e r e w a s a ti m e w h e r e Mr
G a m a w a s a c c u s e d , I r e m e m b e r t h e p e r io d . I ’ m n o t v e r y s u r e w h e t h e r
w e d is c u s s e d t h is , I t h i n k i t c a m e a s ju s t a r e p o r t a b o u t M r G a m a , n o t a
d is c u s s io n w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d t a k e h i m o r n o t.

Th a t ’s w h y I ’ m s a y i n g

these answers that are put here that I said them I don’t remember
having said this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s a y i n g y o u d o h a v e a r e c o l le c ti o n o f t h e f a c t
10

t h a t a t s o m e s ta g e y o u g o t t o k n o w t h a t M r G a m a w a s f a c i n g s o m e
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s b u t y o u c a n ’ t s a y w h e th e r y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t in a
m e e ti n g w i th M s H o g a n ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I n f a c t i t w a s a w e l l k n o w n fa c t
t h a t G a m a fa c e d c h a r g e s , e v e r y b o d y k n e w in t h e c o u n t r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , a n d i s y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n th a t t h a t w a s k n o w n
a t t h e t i m e w h e n a n a p p o i n t m e n t o f G C E O o f Tr a n s n e t w a s s u p p o s e d to
happen.

20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B e c a u s e t h e a ll e g a t io n s a g a i n s t
G a m a to o k a l o n g t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I n th e la s t fo u r li n e s o f th a t

p a r a g r a p h M s H o g a n s a y s t h e fo ll o w i n g . S h e s a y s :
“ P r e s i d e n t Z u m a s a i d t h a t if t h a t w a s m y v ie w n o a p p o i n t m e n t
w h a ts o e v e r w a s t o b e m a d e a t Tr a n s n e t u n ti l M r G a m a ’s
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s w a s o v e r. W e a g r e e d t h a t I w o u l d p r o v i d e
h i m w i t h m o r e d e t a i le d in f o r m a t io n f o r h i m t o fu r t h e r a p p ly h i s
mind to.”
D o y o u r e c a ll a n y t h i n g o f t h a t n a t u r e b e in g s a id a t t h a t c o n s u lt a ti o n
10

with yourself?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I ’v e g o t d i ff ic u l t ie s w i t h t h is

r e p o r t b e c a u s e a c o n s u l t a t i o n t h a t t h e M i n is t e r s d o t h e y w i ll b e
r e p o r t in g , t h e y w i ll b e s a y i n g t h is is w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d , a n d m e a s a
M i n is t e r t h i s is w h a t I t h i n k o r t h e B o a r d t h is is w h a t t h e B o a r d t h i n k s ,
a n d t h e n is t h e r e a n y o t h e r p r o c e s s t h a t is g o i n g f o r w a r d y o u r e p o r t
t h a t , a n d fr o m t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t y o u s a y fi n e g o a h e a d ,
w h e n th in g s a r e o k a y y o u w o u ld c o m e b a c k .

I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r

d is c u s s in g a n i n d iv i d u a l l ik e G a m a t o s a y t h is c a n n o t h a p p e n , t h is is
m y c h o ic e . I c o u l d n o t h a v e s a id s o .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e I c o u l d s a y t h is a n d m a y b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t

c o m e s l a t e r in h e r s ta t e m e n t.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s a y i n g I w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a y b e c o m e s
la t e r i n h e r s t a t e m e n t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e n o is e o f th e a ir c o n m i g h t b e a ff e c t in g u s ,
w e w il l s e e w h a t w e c a n d o i f i t in t e r f e r e s . I t h i n k a t s o m e s t a g e i n h e r
s t a te m e n t w h e n o n e r e a d s i t o n e g e t s t h e i m p r e s s io n , a n d I w a n t t o p u t
it n o h ig h e r t h a n t h a t , g e ts th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t s h e m a y i n r e g a r d t o
t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n ts w h e th e r o f a C E O o f a n S O E o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f
a B o a r d th a t s h e w o u ld b e p u tt i n g f o r w a r d t o c a b i n e t t h a t s h e w o u l d
w a n t fir s t t o h a v e a n i d e a w h e t h e r t h e P r e s id e n t h a s n o p r o b le m w i th t
h e p a r ti c u la r c a n d i d a te . T h a t’s t h e i m p r e s s i o n I g e t , s h e m i g h t n o t b e
s a y in g th a t , a n d i n a w a y w h e n I r e a d t h a t I th o u g h t w e l l m a y b e i f y o u
10

a r e g o i n g t o a c e r t a in m e e ti n g a n d y o u w a n t t o p u t i n a p r o p o s a l y o u
m i g h t w a n t t o c h e c k w i t h c e r t a i n p e o p l e w h o a r e i m p o r ta n t i n t h a t
m e e ti n g i f th e y h a v e a n y p r o b l e m w i t h y o u r p r o p o s a l , b e c a u s e i f t h e y
h a v e a p r o b le m y o u mi g h t w i s h to r e th in k , b u t i f th e y a r e fi n e y o u w i ll
c o n fi d e n t to t h e n ta k e i t f o r w a r d t o a b i g g e r m e e ti n g .
T h a t ’s w h a t I w a s th i n k i n g . S o i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t t o t h e e x t e n t
– i f s h e d i d c o m e t o y o u w it h t h e n a m e s m a y b e t h a t t h e i d e a w a s to
check whether you had any problem with the names. Would that sound
lik e s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u ld h a p p e n a t c a b i n e t m i n is te r s ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

20

N o , n o r m a ll y m i n is t e r s w o u l d

c o m e to th e P r e s id e n t b e f o r e , it ’s n o t j u s t a th in g w h i c h p e r h a p s d o e s
not happen, it does.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It d o e s h a p p e n y e s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ja, to say the DG I am

r e c o m m e n d i n g th is o n e o r w h a te v e r f o r th e Pr e s i d e n t to k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

T h e y c o u l d a ls o e n g a g e i n t h e

d is c u s s io n , i t i s p o s s i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

And the President might have

v ie w s a n d s a y w e w il l c h e c k t h i s o r w h a t e v e r, b u t w h a t I a m s a y i n g th e
P r e s i d e n t c a n ’ t s a y y o u c a n ’t d o t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B e c a u s e t h a t d e c is io n m u s t b e
t a k e n b y th e c o l l e c ti v e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d d o y o u r c o m m e n ts a p p l y

e q u a l ly to a n S O E a s w e l l a s a G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t ’s j u s t b e e n b r o u g h t to m y

a tt e n ti o n t h a t y o u r c o m m e n t s m i g h t h a v e b e e n d ir e c t e d a t g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts , r a t h e r th a n S t a t e O w n e d E n ti ti e s .
MR

JACOB

GEDLEYIHLEKISA

ZUMA:

Even

the

S t a te

Owned

E n t e r p r is e s t h e y c o m e a s w e ll .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

She proceeds in paragraph 35

M r Zu m a t o s a y t h e p r o b l e m w a s th a t P r e s i d e n t Z u m a , t w o o f m y
c a b i n e t c o l le a g u e s a n d e l e m e n ts w it h in t h e A N C a n d t h e Tr i p a r ti t e
A ll i a n c e , i n c l u d i n g t h e S e c r e ta r y G e n e r a l G w e d e M a n ta s h e , w e r e v e r y
v o c a l t h a t th e c a n d id a t e o f t h e ir c h o ic e , M r G a m a , w o u l d b e c o m e t h e
n e x t G C E O o f Tr a n s n e t , d e s p i t e t h e fa c t th a t th e b la c k d o m in a te d b o a r d
o f Tr a n s n e t a f te r a r i g o r o u s a n d p r o f e s s i o n a l s e l e c t io n p r o c e s s w e r e

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c le a r ly o f th e v i e w t h a t Mr G a m a w a s n o t a n a p p r o p r ia t e c a n d id a t e .
H e r c o m m e n t s th e n a r e e x te n d e d i n s o f a r a s th e y r e l a t e t o s u p p o r t f o r
M r G a m a t o a r r a n g e w i t h o th e r p e r s o n s a n d e n t i ti e s , o r p e r s o n s r a t h e r,
d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Well I’m not sure here because
s h e is n o w in c l u d i n g m a n y p e o p le .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A r o u n d t h is n a m e , s h e k n e w

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If I may just put it to you on a

b a s is t h a t is fa ir to y o u , s h e s a y s th e y w e r e v e r y v o c a l a b o u t i t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t’s w h a t s h e i s s a y i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e
of that?
MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I d o n ’ t k n o w, I d o n ’ t k n o w

b e c a u s e y o u d o n ’ t m e e t a s a n a ll ia n c e t o d is c u s s t h o s e m a t t e r s , t h o s e
a r e j u s t g o v e r n m e n t m a t t e r s . S o I a m n o t s u r e , a s y o u c a n s e e t h is is
r e a l ly p u l li n g e v e r y b o d y t o a n i s s u e o f a s p e c i fi c g o v e r n m e n t p u t ti n g
t h e S e c r e ta r y G e n e r a l a n d e v e r y b o d y e ls e , w e n e v e r d i s c u s s t h i s w i t h
20

t h e S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l o r o t h e r A ll ia n c e p e o p le .

A s a M in is t e r m a y b e

fr o m t h e h u m a n p o in t o f v ie w p e o p l e m u s t h a v e b e e n c o m i n g t o h e r, I
d o n ’t k n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

She said there was vocal

s u p p o r t a n d w i d e s p r e a d v o c a l s u p p o r t fo r M r G a m a t o b e a p p o in t e d a s
t h e n e x t G C E O o f Tr a n s n e t . I t m a y b e t h a t s h e i m p l ie s , m a y b e n o t b u t

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p e r h a p s I s h o u l d p u t i t t o y o u t h a t i t w a s w e ll k n o w n t h a t m a n y p e o p l e
supported Mr Gama.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I ’ m s u r e a s M in is t e r b e c a u s e

t h e y a ls o d o c o n s u l t w i t h t h e U n io n s , b e c a u s e a t ti m e s U n io n s h a v e
v ie w s a b o u t p e o p l e w h o a r e a p p o i n t e d f o r t h e f a c t t h a t s h e s a id p e o p l e
a r e v o c a l , i t m e a n s s h e h a s m a y b e b e e n c a n v a s s in g o r t a l k i n g to m a n y
people.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s t h a t a m o u n ts t o s a y in g y o u c a n n e it h e r a d m i t
o r d e n y t h a t , th a t ’s w h a t s h e s a y s a n d i t ’s p o s s i b le .
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t w a s y o u r v i e w Mr Z u m a

a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r G a m a a s G C E O o f Tr a n s n e t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h a t?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

What was your view as to

w h e t h e r h e s h o u ld b e a p p o in t e d o r n o t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I t h i n k I w a s lo o k i n g a t t h e

process that whatever happened at the end that would be the decision,
I d i d n o t p u t my p r e fe r e n c e s o n G a m a o r w h o e v e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w o u l d y o u h a v e – w h a t d o y o u th i n k w o u l d h a v e
b e e n y o u r v i e w i f s h e to ld y o u , a s s h e s a y s s h e d i d , th a t th e r e w a s a
r ig o r o u s s e l e c t io n p r o c e s s t h a t h a d b e e n f o l lo w e d b y t h e B o a r d
c o n s i d e r in g a n u m b e r o f c a n d i d a t e s , o n e o f w h o m w a s M r G a m a , b u t
t h a t a f t e r c o n s id e r in g a ll t h e c a n d id a t e s t h e B o a r d h a d r e c o m m e n d e d
M r – is i t M a s e k o ?

Page 54 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Maseko, do you have an idea what your normal

r e a c ti o n w o u l d b e w h e n a M i n i s te r c o m e s w i th n a m e s a f t e r a p r o c e s s
lik e t h a t, w o u ld y o u r n a tu r a l o r n o r m a l r e a c ti o n b e i f t h a t i s w h a t th e
B o a r d w a n ts a n d y o u a r e h a p p y t h e n i t ’s f i n e o r w o u ld y o u r p o s i ti o n b e
ju s t g iv e m e s o m e m o r e in f o r m a t io n a b o u t th is c a n d i d a t e o r a l l th e s e
c a n d i d a t e s , I w a n t t o lo o k a t t h e m , I w a n t to s c r u t i n is e th e m o r ta k e it
t o c a b i n e t a n d w e w ill s e e w h a t c a b i n e t s a y s .

What would be your

n o r m a l r e a c ti o n w h e n a M i n is t e r c o m e s w i t h c a n d i d a t e s – a c a n d id a t e ’s
10

name after such a process?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
c a s e s th a t is w h a t th e M in is t e r s d o .
b o a r d l o o k e d a t t h is .

N o in fa c t in t h e m a jo r i ty o f
To s a y h e r e is a p r o c e s s .

T h e y p r e fe r t h i s o n e .

The

T h e M i n is t e r m ig h t g iv e

s o m e d e t a i ls a n d i t m i g h t n o t g iv e s o m e d e t a il s t o s a y t h e r e f o r e th e
process

is

m o v in g

fo r w a r d .

Boards

recommend.

Th e

boards

t h e m s e l v e s k n o w t h a t t h e ir r e c o m m e n d a ti o n c o u ld b e a c c e p te d o r n o t
a c c e p te d b y c a b i n e t . A n d t h a t t h e r e is n o p r o c e s s t h a t c a n b e s to p p e d
h a l fw a y.
happened.
20

I t w o u l d ju s t b e t o a l e r t t h e P r e s i d e n t a b o u t w h a t h a s
P a r t ly b e c a u s e i n t h e c a b i n e t t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u l d b e

c h a ir i n g m o s t o f t h e ti m e . Th e d e b a t e w o u l d b e a m o n g t h e M i n is t e r s .
J u s t m a k i n g th e P r e s i d e n t a w a r e t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e i s s u e s a n d th e
M i n is t e r c o u ld a ls o e x p r e s s h e r o w n p r e fe r e n c e a n d t h e r e a s o n s w h y h e
o r s h e f e e ls t h is w o u l d b e th e r i g h t p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e I c o u l d a s k t h is a s w e ll ? D o y o u h a v e a n y
r e c o l l e c ti o n w h e t h e r i n s u c h a p r o c e s s w h e n a M in is t e r c o m e s t o

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
c a b i n e t w i t h a n a m e w h e t h e r h e o r s h e w o u l d i n c l u d e in f o r m a t io n a b o u t
o th e r c a n d id a t e s w h o w e r e n o t s u c c e s s f u l a c c o r d i n g t o t h e b o a r d o r i t
w o u ld j u s t b e i n – fo r t h e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e c a n d id a t e t h a t i s b e i n g
r e c o m m e n d e d , i s t h a t s o m e th i n g th a t y o u a r e a b le to r e m e m b e r o r i s
that something you do not remember?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A t ti m e s – a t t i m e s t h e M i n i s t e r
w o u ld g iv e i n fo r m a t i o n a b o u t o th e r s f o r a n e x a m p l e y o u m i g h t s a y t h e r e
w e r e s o m a n y c a n d id a t e s , t h is o n e is o n e . Th e c o n c e n tr a ti o n w o u l d b e
on this one.
10

In t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e d is c u s s i o n p e o p l e c a n s a y, l e t u s

h e a r n u m b e r 2 , w h a t w a s h e – w h a t w a s th e k in d o f th in g ?
M i n is t e r c o u l d m e n t i o n i t e v e n a t t h e b e g i n n in g .

Or the

In other words it

v a r ie s h o w t h e y p r e s e n t th e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV

PA U L

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S :

In

r e la t io n

to

SOE

board

a p p o i n t m e n ts d o I u n d e r s ta n d i t c o r r e c t ly …
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I a m s o r r y I t h in k M r S ik h a k h a n e h a s g o t

something.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Th is i s – t h i s is p o o r. Th is i s r e a lly p o o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Please come forward so I can hear you.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E:

I k n o w y o u s a i d C h a ir I c a n n o t t e ll y o u

a b o u t y o u r jo b s b u t I w i ll n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o , n o . I s a id y o u c a n m a k e s u b m is s io n s a n d
e v e r y o n e m u s t d o t h e ir jo b .

Page 56 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : C h a ir t h i s is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : I m u s t s a y th is is p o o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E:

Th is w i t n e s s r ig h t c o m e s h e r e – y o u h a v e

A n n e x u r e D w h ic h te ll s y o u w h a t th e p r o c e s s i s .

T h is i s n o e x p e r t in

t h o s e p r o c e s s e s . Yo u h a v e i t i n A n n e x u r e D in y o u r d o c u m e n t a n d y o u
a r e t o l d b y t h e M in is t e r.

I d o n o t th i n k i t i s f a i r t o a s k s o m e o n e w h o

w a s h e a d o f s t a te to e x p l a i n to y o u t h e p r o c e s s o f s e l e c ti n g p e o p le
10

w h e n y o u h a v e th e d o c u m e n t t h a t t e ll s y o u fr o m t h e r ig h t p e r s o n . I d o
n o t t h i n k i t is fa ir to t h is w i t n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M r S i k h a k h a n e s o m e ti m e s y o u h a v e a l a i d d o w n
p r o c e s s a n d y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f p e r s o n s o f w h a t th e
a c t u a l p r o c e s s w a s t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d . S o m e t i m e s a l a i d d o w n p r o c e s s
is

not

fo ll o w e d

so

the

q u e s ti o n

was

meant

to

get

what

h is

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s o f w h a t t h e p r o c e s s w a s a s o p p o s e d t o w h a t t h e
p r o c e s s w a s t h a t w a s p r e s c r i b e d b y l a w.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Th e n C h a ir i f I m a y a s k ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE:

W h a t h a s t h a t g o t t o d o w it h fr a u d a n d

c o r r u p ti o n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is h a s g o t to d o w i th w h e t h e r w h e r e i t i s a l le g e d

t h a t a s i t is h e r e t h a t h e s a i d h e h a d o n l y o n e c h o i c e o f a c a n d id a t e .
W h e t h e r i t is p o s s ib le t h a t t h e – h is u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e p r o c e s s i s
d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t i s l a i d d o w n . G e n u i n e u n d e r s t a n d in g .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w. Th is is r e a lly p o o r. H e
– he has told you what he – that he could not have said it. We have
s p e n t 3 5 m i n u t e s o n a q u e s ti o n my c li e n t h a s a n s w e r e d a n d h e i s – y o u
a r e a s k i n g h i m – y o u a r e n o t a s k i n g h i m w h a t – w h e th e r h e w a n t e d a
d e v i a ti o n . H e is b e in g a s k e d a b o u t h o w d o e s t h e p r o c e s s u n fo l d . Yo u
h a v e a d o c u m e n t th a t te lls y o u th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M r S ik h a k h a n e I h a v e ju s t s a i d t o y o u – y o u c a n
h a v e a la w t h a t s a y s t h is i s t h e p r o c e s s a n d y o u c a n h a v e p e o p l e w h o
a r e s u p p o s e d t o a p p l y t h a t p r o c e s s h a v i n g a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
10

A n d th e q u e s t io n i s a i m e d a t e s t a b li s h i n g w h e t h e r h is u n d e r s t a n d in g –
w h a t h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s o f t h e p r o c e s s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : O k a y t h a n k s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

C h a ir t o j u s t m a k e o n e c o m m e n t

fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m ’s p o in t o f v i e w o n t h is is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A t t h e b e g in n i n g o f th is c o m m i s s i o n
y o u m a d e i t p u b lic t h a t it s t a s k a n d t h e t a s k o f t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s a n d
t h e l e g a l t e a m w a s t o tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d i n r e l a ti o n t o i ts t e r m s o f
20

r e fe r e n c e w h a t h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

To t r y a n d u n d e r s t a n d h o w i t

happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

A n d t o m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n

Page 58 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
r e g a r d t o t h e c o r r e c ti o n o r a s s u r a n c e th a t i t – w h a t e v e r is f o u n d t o
h a v e h a p p e n e d u lt i m a t e ly i n y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w o u ld n o t h a p p e n
a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f p e r s o n s t o s t a t e
o w n e d e n ti t ie s i s a n in t e g r a l p a r t o f a ll t h r e e l e g s o f th a t i n q u ir y. I t is
s o m e t h i n g w h i c h i s b e i n g d e b a t e d in t e n s e ly u p t o n o w b y o th e r
w i t n e s s e s a n d i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t w it h h is
k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e c a n a s s is t w i t h a n d I a m q u it e s u r e h e i s
10

w i ll in g to a s s is t w i th i t .

H e is n o t b e in g a c c u s e d o f a n y th i n g i n th a t

process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a g a in M r Zu m a I j u s t w a n t to s a y t h a t w h e r e y o u
d o n o t k n o w f e e l fr e e t o s a y t h a t I d o n o t k n o w. Th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S :
c o n ti n u e .

I n a n y e v e n t M r Zu m a i f w e m a y

I n p a r a g r a p h 3 6 t h e d e p o n e n t t o th is a ff i d a v i t Ms H o g a n

r a i s e s a n o t h e r c o n c e r n a b o u t Mr G a m a ’s c a n d id a c y a n d i t w a s a r e p o r t
t h a t h e h a d b e e n e n g a g e d i n a c o n tr a c t u a l r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h a c a b in e t
colleague Mr Nyanda.

D i d y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h i s a l le g a ti o n a t

t h e ti m e ?
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ye s I r e m e m b e r s li g h tly th a t

t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e t w e e n t h e t w o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

A n d d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t t h e r e w e r e

a l le g a ti o n s a b o u t t h e p r o p r i e ty o r la w f u l n e s s o f t h o s e e n g a g e m e n ts

Page 59 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
between Mr Nyanda and Mr Gama.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : D o y o u r e c a ll a n y t h i n g a b o u t – y o u
do?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I r e m e m b e r t h a t . I d o n o t
r e m e m b e r t h e d e t a i l b u t I r e m e m b e r t h e i n c id e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S h e g o e s o n in p a r a g r a p h 3 7 t o s a y :
“ N o t w i th s t a n d i n g
c la i m e d
10

he

a ll

was

t h is

being

Mr

G a m a ’s

v ic ti m i s e d

by

supporters
an

a n ti-

tr a n s fo r m a t i o n w h i te c a b a l t h a t h a d in s t i tu t e d i n q u ir y
a n d l a t e r d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s t o p r e v e n t h i m
fr o m b e i n g a p p o i n t e d t h e G C E O . ”
D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h o s e s e n t i m e n t s e x p r e s s e d b y M r G a m a ’s
s u p p o r t e r s ? N o t fr o m – n e e d d w e ll t h e r e t o o m u c h b u t …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
a b o u t t h e v ic ti m i s a t io n w h a te v e r.

I t h i n k th e r e w e r e m u r m u r s

I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d e t a i ls b u t I

k n o w t h a t t h is a s I s a id t h e G a m a t h in g w a s a w e l l- k n o w n t h i n g in t h e
c o u n tr y. T h e p r o b l e m s t h a t h e h a d w i t h t h e – w i th t h e c o m p a n y. B u t I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e d e t a i ls .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A lr i g h t . S h e d o e s n o t e i n p a r a g r a p h
3 9 o n p a g e 4 0 8 t h a t M r G a m a w a s l a te r fo u n d g u il ty o f u n w a r r a n t e d
c r i ti c is m o f Tr a n s n e t e x e c u t iv e s a c h a r g e s e r i o u s e n o u g h t o w a r r a n t
d is m i s s a l .

I d o n o t w h a t t o g o i n t o th e d e ta ils o f t h e i n q u ir y a n d th e

c h a r g e s b u t th a t i s w h a t s h e s a y s . D o y o u r e c a l l th a t th e r e w a s a g u i l ty
fi n d i n g i n r e la t io n t o M r G a m a ’s i n q u ir y ?

Page 60 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I th in k t h e r e w a s s o m e

c o n c l u s i o n b u t I d o n o t c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly h o w – w h a t w a s – h o w
t h e fi n a l c o n c lu s i o n w a s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

I th i n k t o a s s i s t y o u it w ill b e c o m e

c le a r e r la t e r s o w e c a n p a r k t h a t f o r th e m o m e n t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

She says in paragraph 40 on page

408.
“ O n o r a b o u t 2 8 J u ly 2 0 0 9 I s e n t P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a
10

c o m p r e h e n s iv e r e p o r t a t ta c h e d h e r e t o m a r k e d D w it h
a n n e x u r e s d e t a i li n g th e s e l e c t io n p r o c e s s .
s tr o n g

m o t iv a ti o n

for

th e

appointment

The
of

th e

c a n d i d a t e th a t h a d b e e n r e c o m m e n d e d t o m e b y t h e
Tr a n s n e t

board.

D e t a i ls

of

th e

procurement

ir r e g u l a r i ti e s u n d e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n b y t h e Tr a n s n e t
A u d i t C o m m i t te e . T h e C o r p o r a t e G o v e r n a n t a s p e c ts
o f C E O a p p o i n t m e n ts i n i n c l u d i n g t h e l e g a l o p i n io n s
p r e p a r e d b y Mr M ic h a e l K a t z a n d A d v o c a te W i m
Tr e n g r o v e S C in th is r e g a r d .
20

H o w e v e r Pr e s id e n t

Zuma did not respond.”
D i d y o u r e c a ll r e c e iv i n g s u c h a r e p o r t?

Would you have read it or

w o u ld a s u b o r d in a t e o f y o u r s h a v e r e a d i t a n d a d v is e d y o u ?

What

w o u ld t h e p o s i t io n h a v e b e e n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I r e c e iv e d t h e r e p o r t. I t w a s
ju s t a r e p o r t l ik e a ll o th e r r e p o r t s f o r m e t o k n o w.

Page 61 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t . A n d d i d y o u n o t e i t , d i d y o u
r e a d it o r d i d y o u a s k s o m e b o d y to a d v i s e y o u a b o u t it .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I r e a d i t. I r e a d i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B u t i t w a s a r e p o r t l ik e a ll o t h e r
reports.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S:

R ig h t .

Paragraph 40 – the report

it s e l f is a t p a g e 4 2 2 o f b u n d le G G [ b ] , E x h i b i t G G [ b ] a n d i t is h e a d e d
Decision Memorandum.
10

I t i s a d d r e s s e d t o y o u a s P r e s i d e n t fr o m M s

B a r b a r a H o g a n . I t i s d a t e d t h e 2 8 J u ly 2 0 0 9 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: What page are you in?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 4 2 2 – r e d 4 2 2 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 4 –
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Pr e t o r i u s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

I am sorry I thought you were

lo o k in g a t i t.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I have…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u .
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I have got it.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : L e t u s l e a v e a s i d e t h e l e g a l a d v ic e
c o n ta in e d i n th e r e p o r t f o r t h e m o m e n t .

W e m a y r e t u r n to i t i f i t is

necessary or you want to but there is a summary of the report at page
4 2 3 w h ic h s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1
“ F o l l o w in g th e r e s i g n a t io n o f M s R a m o s t h e b o a r d

Page 62 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
in it i a t e d

a

CEO

recruitment

process

to

ensure

c o n ti n u i ty i n Tr a n s n e t b u s in e s s o p e r a ti o n s . As a
consequence

of

the

w it h d r a w a l

of

the

boards

u n a n i m o u s ly r e c o m m e n d e d p r e f e r r e d c a n d i d a t e M r
Pravin Gordhan it says it should not be the board
e x t e n d e d i ts s e a r c h f o r a s u i t a b l e c a n d i d a t e a n d h a s
n o w r e c o m m e n d e d a fu r t h e r p r e f e r r e d c a n d i d a t e w i t h
two

other

short

li s t e d

p r e fe r r e d

c a n d id a te s

for

appointment as CEO.”
10

In paragraph 2.2 she says or the report says:
“ T h e r e c r u i t m e n t a n d s e l e c t io n p r o c e s s c o n d u c t e d b y
t h e b o a r d r a is e d q u e s ti o n s r e g a r d i n g t h e a p p r o p r i a t e
a u t h o r i ty t o a p p o i n t t h e C E O a s w e ll a s t h e c o r r e c t
p r o c e s s t o f o l l o w. ”
L e t u s l e a v e t h a t a s i d e f o r th e m o m e n t . I t s a y s i n 2 . 3 :
“The

recruitment

process

unfortunate

ti m e

when

undertaking

i n v e s ti g a ti o n s

was
th e

i n it i a t e d
board

into

at

was

a l le g e d

an
also

corrupt

a c ti v i ti e s a g a i n s t s o m e o f t h e s e n io r e x e c u tiv e s a t
20

Tr a n s n e t .

T h is

time

overlap

may

have

r a is e d

c o n c e r n s r e g a r d i n g t h e p r o c e s s a n d c r i t e r ia fo ll o w e d
in t h e r e c r u it m e n t a n d s e l e c t i o n o f c a n d i d a te s . T h e
p r o c e s s c o n d u c te d b y t h e b o a r d h a s b e e n a s s e s s e d
a n d f o u n d to b e r o b u s t in s o f a r a s i t w a s r e fe r e n c e d
t o l a b o u r l a w c o m p l i a n t a n d i n t e r n a ti o n a ll y r e c o g n is e

Page 63 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
c a n d i d a t e p r o f ili n g . ”
T h e i m p o r ta n t p o in t i n t h is s u m m a r y a t l e a s t i s m a d e a t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 4 .
“ D u e t o t h e d e l a y in t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e C E O a n d
m e d i a s p e c u l a ti o n i t h a s n o w b e c o m e c r i ti c a l f o r t h e
s h a r e h o l d e r t o r e s o lv e o n t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f th e
CEO

and

Tr a n s n e t .

to

r e - e s ta b l is h

le a d e r s h i p

s t a b il it y

at

T h is m e m o r a n d u m s e r v e s t o a d d r e s s

q u e s t io n s

and

concerns

r a is e d

w i th

a

view

to

a g r e e m e n t o n t h e w a y f o r w a r d i n a p p o i n t in g a C E O
f o r Tr a n s n e t a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e . ”

10

D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t i n r e l a ti o n t o 2 . 4 ?

I w o u ld a s s u m e b u t

p e r h a p s I s h o u l d n o t t h a t – t h a t i t w o u l d b e i n a n y s ta t e o w n e d e n t it y
c r i ti c a l f o r t h e r e t o b e le a d e r s h i p s ta b i li t y a t a ll ti m e s a n d th u s w o u ld
in c l u d e Tr a n s n e t a n d t h a t u n d u e d e l a y i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a s u i t a b l e
candidate

to

CEO

p o s i ti o n

w o u ld

in

general

c ir c u m s t a n c e s

be

u n d e s ir a b le . W o u l d y o u a c c e p t th a t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : H e is s t ill r e a d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s n o t s u r e – I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r …
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S :

I a m s o r r y d id y o u n o t – I m is s e d

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

That was an answer – whether there was an answer

or not?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I was saying yes there was.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u .

Page 64 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I thought I – I thought I nodded
[i n d is t in c t] .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

S o r r y.

I t is j u s t t h a t th e r e c o r d

w o u ld n o t p i c k u p a n o d .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O h o k a y, o k a y, o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : W e m a y b e f il m e d f o r o t h e r r e a s o n s
10

b u t n o t f o r t h a t r e a s o n . I n p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 3 s h e s u m m a r is e s t h e o b j e c t
o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m it is a t p a g e 4 2 6 M r Z u m a s h e s a y s :
“ I n v i e w o f th e a f o r e m e n ti o n e d i t is c o n s i d e r e d
prudent that the board …”
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry where are you?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : P a g e 4 2 6 p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 3 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 426.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I a m s o r r y I …
CHAIRPERSON: 426.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 4 2 6 , r e d 4 2 6 p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 3 .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : D o y o u h a v e i t M r Z u m a ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . S h e s a y s :
“ I n v i e w o f th e a f o r e m e n ti o n e d i t is c o n s i d e r e d

Page 65 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
p r u d e n t t h a t t h e b o a r d i n c o n s u lt a ti o n w i th th e
relevant

M in is t e r

conducts

selection

process

fo r

a

a

CEO

recruitment
and

and

recommends

s u i t a b l e c a n d i d a t e s to th e M in is t e r f o r c o n s i d e r a ti o n
a n d a p p o i n t m e n t s u b je c t t o a p p r o v a l b y C a b i n e t . ”
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is i n v e r y, v e r y b r o a d s u m m a r y
the process.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A n d I t h in k y o u h a v e a g r e e d t o t h a t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S h e t h e n d e t a ils th e r e c r u i t m e n t a n d
s e l e c t i o n p r o c e s s o f t h e C E O o f Tr a n s n e t t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d a n d s h e
g o e s i n t o s o m e d e ta il i n p a r a g r a p h 3 . 2 . 2 o f t h e t y p e o f p r o c e d u r e s
c o n d u c t e d i n s u c h a p r o c e s s b y t h e b o a r d ’s c o r p o r a te g o v e r n a n c e a n d
n o m i n a ti o n s c o m m i t t e e .

P r o b a b ly n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o i n to a n y d e t a i l

b u t ju s t t o r e m a r k th a t th e r e i s a t h o r o u g h p r o c e s s o f e x a m i n a t i o n o f
c a n d i d a t e s o n a n u m b e r o f c r i t e r ia . Yo u n o te t h a t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h a t i s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h y o u r
o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . Ye s .
ADV

PA U L

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S :

The

paragraph

3 .2

various

c a n d i d a t e s a r e m e n t i o n e d in c l u d i n g Mr G a m a a n d s e v e r a l o t h e r s a n d
t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 . 2 . 4 b y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d t h e r e is a r e c o r d a l t h a t

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
t h e b o a r d u n a n i m o u s ly r e c o m m e n d e d M r P r a v i n G o r d h a n . B u t I w o u ld
lik e t o g o t o t h e n e x t p a g e i f I m a y ?

B e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t h is

c a n d i d a t e h e r e w a s w it h d r a w n t o t h e t o p o f p a g e 4 2 8 w h e r e i t s a y s :
“ T h e p r e f e r r e d in t e r n a l c a n d id a t e Mr S iy a b o n g a G a m a w a s th o r o u g h ly
c o n s i d e r e d b u t th e b o a r d is o f a v i e w th a t h i s a s s e s s m e n t s h o w e d t h a t
t h e r e a r e i m p o r t a n t g a p s r e l a ti v e to t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts f o r t h e p o s i t io n .
According to the independent assessment and board evaluation he
c u r r e n tly

r e q u ir e s

greater

c o g n i t iv e

development

to

handle

th e

c o m p le x i ty o f t h is p o s i ti o n . ”
10

Yo u s a y y o u w o u l d h a v e h a d r e g a r d t o t h is r e p o r t . D o y o u r e c a ll th a t
observation being conveyed to you?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h ic h o n e ? I w a s ju s t l o o k i n g
at the – at page.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I a m s o r r y. P a g e 4 2 8 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Be cause I mean paragraph.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I f y o u w a n t t h e fi r s t p a r a g r a p h .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Pa ge 30 – 3.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 2 8 I th i n k . D id y o u s a y 4 3 8 ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 4 2 8 .

20

CHAIRPERSON: At the top.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 428.
CHAIRPERSON:

428 at the top.

Must I ask somebody to come and

a s s is t y o u ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Yo u c a n d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o u l d – L e r a t o . G o a n d l o o k fo r p a g e 4 2 8 a t t h e
top.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Is i t p a g e – e v e n o n t h e r i g h t

w h a t y o u c a ll it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e r ig h t o n e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . E a c h t i m e w e t a lk a b o u t a p a g e it w il l b e t h e r e d
numbers at the top.
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

F in e I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h e

paragraphs.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A r e y o u h o ld i n g m e t o t h a t D C J ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u h a d to d e v ia t e y e s t e r d a y a t s o m e s t a g e . J a
o k a y. D o y o u w a n t t o r e a d i t a n d th e n p u t y o u r q u e s ti o n a g a i n ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ye s m a y I r e a d i t t o – p e r h a p s I

should go…
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d in g i t fr o m p a g e 2 7 u p t o 2 8 – 4 2 8 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th e p a r a g r a p h h e is g o i n g t o r e a d M r Z u m a

s t a r ts o n t h e p r e v i o u s p a g e w h ic h is 4 2 7 a t t h e b o t t o m a n d c o n ti n u e s a t
the top of page 428.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : P a r a g r a p h 3 .2 . 5 o n p a g e …

Page 68 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
CHAIRPERSON: Page 427.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R e d 4 2 7 . I a m g o in g t o r e a d i t .
“ I n a d d i ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I th in k h e m u s t s e e i t a s w e ll .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u s e e i t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h a t is t h e p a r a g r a p h ?
CHAIRPERSON: 42 – 32…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 3 . 2 . 5 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 3…
CHAIRPERSON: At the bottom.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 3.2.5.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O n t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e r e d 4 2 7 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s , y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : D o y o u h a v e i t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I t r e a d s :
“ I n a d d i t io n t h e b o a r d d is c lo s e d t h e n a m e s o f a l l t h e

20

c a n d i d a t e s s h o r t li s te d fo r f in a l in t e r v i e w s . T h e li s t
w a s n o t p r e s e n te d in o r d e r o f p r i o r it y a n d c o m p r is e d
o f th e f o l lo w in g n a m e s :

Ms Moses, Mr Gama, Mr

Tl o t i, M r K e ts o G o r d h a n a n d M r P r a v i n G o r d h a n .
R e g a r d i n g t h e a s s e s s m e n t o f th e o t h e r c a n d i d a t e s
t h e b o a r d r e p o r t e d to t h e M i n i s te r t h a t “ t h e o t h e r

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
c a n d i d a t e s w e r e fo u n d t o b e le s s s u i t a b l e f o r th e
p o s i ti o n o r n o t s u i ta b le a t a l l . ”
in t e r n a l

candidate

Mr

S iy a b o n g a

T h e p r e fe r r e d
Gama

was

t h o r o u g h ly c o n s i d e r e d b u t th e b o a r d is o f a v i e w t h a t
h is a s s e s s m e n t s h o w e d t h a t t h e r e a r e i m p o r ta n t g a p s
r e l a ti v e

to

the

r e q u ir e m e n ts

for

the

p o s i ti o n .

A c c o r d i n g to th e i n d e p e n d e n t a s s e s s m e n t a n d b o a r d
e v a l u a t i o n h e c u r r e n t ly r e q u i r e s g r e a t e r c o g n i t iv e
development
10

to

handle

the

c o m p l e x it y

of

t h is

p o s i ti o n . ”
I n s h o r t t h e b o a r d ’s p o s i t io n w a s t h a t a f te r c o n s i d e r a t io n o f h is
a s s e s s m e n t in c l u d i n g a n in d e p e n d e n t a s s e s s m e n t it d e t e r m i n e d t h a t h e
w a s n o t s u i t a b l e f o r a p p o in t m e n t t o t h e p o s t . W h e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t
s e n ti m e n t a n d t h a t t h a t w a s t h e s e n ti m e n t o f t h e b o a r d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I t h in k s o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

T h a t s e n ti m e n t i s r e p e a t e d i n

p a r a g r a p h 3 .2 . 7 o n p a g e 4 2 8 w h i c h r e a d s :
20

“ O n 9 M a r c h 2 0 0 9 t h e Tr a n s n e t b o a r d p r o v i d e d t h e
M i n is t e r w i th a s u m m a r y o f a s s e s s m e n ts o f a ll t h e
s h o r t li s te d c a n d i d a te s a n d in a d d i ti o n in f o r m e d t h e
M i n is t e r o f a ll e g a t i o n s o f m is c o n d u c t in v o l v in g o n e o f
t h e s h o r t l is t e d c a n d i d a t e s M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a . T h e
b o a r d c i te d t h e r e a s o n s w h y Mr S i y a b o n g a G a m a w a s

Page 70 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
n o t r e c o m m e n d e d fo r a p p o i n t m e n t i n th e fi r s t p l a c e
a n d th e i n h e r e n t p e n d in g u n c e r t a i n ty r e g a r d i n g t h e
o u t c o m e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a g a i n s t h i m a s w h y –
a s to w h y i t s h o u l d r e a d h e s h o u ld n o t n o w b e
a p p o i n t e d t o t h e p o s i ti o n o f C E O . ”
W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th o s e s e n t i m e n ts ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

A n d t h e n i t c o n c l u d e s – w e ll a

c o n c l u s i o n in p a r a g r a p h 3 . 2 . 1 2 o n p a g e 4 2 9 .
10

“ A f t e r t h e i n te r v i e w s w e r e c o n d u c t e d t h e c o r p o r a t e
governance

and

n o m in a ti o n s

committee

recommended three preferred candidates who could
fi ll t h e p o s i t io n o f C E O n a m e ly Mr S i p h o M a s e k o , M r
Ta u M o r w e a n d Mr K g o m o ts o P h ih le l a w i t h f u l l a n d
unanimous

support

of

th e

Tr a n s n e t

board

r e c o m m e n d e d M r S i p h o M a s e k o f o r a p p o in t m e n t a s
CEO.”
A n d th e n i t g o e s in t o th e r e a s o n s w h y h e w a s r e c o m m e n d e d . W e r e y o u
a w a r e o f t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k s o y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h e n th e r e is a s e c t i o n o f th e r e p o r t
a d d r e s s e d t o y o u d e a l i n g w it h t h e fu r t h e r p r o c e s s e s p a r ti c u l a r l y th o s e
c o n d u c t e d o n Tr a n s n e t ’s b e h a l f b y E r n s t a n d Yo u n g a n d o t h e r s in
r e l a ti o n t o v a r i o u s m a t t e r s r e l e v a n t t o t h e b o a r d ’s c o n c l u s i o n .
o n e g o e s t o p a g e 4 3 3 if I m a y ? P a r a g r a p h 3 . 4 . 1 t h e r e p o r t r e a d s :

Page 71 of 102

And if

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t h i m g e t t h e r e fir s t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : P a r a g r a p h 4 – p a g e 4 3 3 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : P a r a g r a p h 3 .4 . 1 . D o y o u h a v e i t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
“As

e x e c u t iv e

a u t h o r i ty

and

shareholder

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f t h e s t a te it is i n c u m b e n t u p o n t h e
M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s t o e x e r c is e th e r i g h ts
10

o f th e s h a r e h o ld e r t o a p p o in t t h e C E O o f Tr a n s n e t i n
g e n e r a l m e e ti n g .

I n k e e p i n g w i th c o m p a n y l a w a n d

c o r p o r a t e g o o d g o v e r n a n c e c o d e s s u c h a s Ki n g 3 i t is
important

th a t

the

shareholder

engages

in

a

m e a n i n g f u l a n d c o n s tr u c t iv e f a s h io n w i t h t h e b o a r d in
s e l e c t i n g a C E O to th e l e a d a c o m p a n y – t o le a d t h e
c o m p a n y. ”
D o y o u h a v e c o m m e n t o n t h a t ? W o u l d y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t s e n ti m e n t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “ I n t h is r e g a r d … ”
20

T h e p a r a g r a p h c o n ti n u e s :
“…finding a suitable candidate for appointment as
Tr a n s n e t’s C E O c o n s id e r in g t h e c o m p a n y ’s i m p a c t
o n th e e c o n o m y t h e m a g n i t u d e o f i ts i n fr a s tr u c t u r e ,
b u il t p r o g r a m a n d g lo b a l e c o n o m i c c o n t e x t i s a t a s k
w i t h h ig h i m p a c t a n d p o te n ti a l r is k . ”

Page 72 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
W o u l d y o u a g r e e w it h th a t s e n t i m e n t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n i f w e m a y p r o c e e d t o p a g e
4 3 4 th e c o n c lu s i o n s o f th is s e c t io n r e l a ti n g t o th e p r o c e s s fr o m a
f a c tu a l p o i n t o f v i e w a r e s e t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 3 . 4 . 5 o n p a g e 4 - 3 - 4 . D o
y o u h a v e th a t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e f ir s t b u ll e t – i f I m a y

s u m m a r i s e m e n ti o n s th a t :
“ T h e r e c r u it m e n t p r o c e s s c o n d u c te d b y t h e B o a r d

10

h a s b e e n r o b u s t i n a s s e s s i n g b o t h in t e r n a l a n d
e x t e r n a l c a n d i d a te s . ”
The second bullet says:
“ T h e in v e s t i g a t io n o f a ll e g e d m i s c o n d u c t o n t h e p a r t
o f M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a is n o t tr u m p e d u p o r tr iv ia l
b u t p o te n ti a lly s i g n i fi c a n t a n d t h e B o a r d w i ll b e
f a il i n g i n i t s fi d u c i a r y d u ty i f i t d o e s n o t c o m p l e t e
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h d u e p r o c e s s . ”
Yo u
20

would

have

been

informed

then

of

both

those

observations I take it?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e – t h e m ic r o p h o n e m u s t b e a b l e t o c a tc h t h e

response.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 73 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y, o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Was your answer yes?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e th ir d b u l l e t r e a d s :
“ T h e B o a r d is c o n f i d e n t th a t th e s u b s t a n c e a n d
m e t h o d o f t h e r e c r u i t m e n t a n d s e le c t i o n p r o c e s s
w e r e k e p t d is c r e e t f r o m t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . ”
Discreet in that sense means separate from as I understand
10

the sentiment there.

A t p a g e 4 - 3 - 5 t h a t is o v e r t h e p a g e t h e t h ir d ,

f o u r t h a n d fi f th b u l le ts i f I m a y r e a d t h e f ir s t b u ll e t :
“ A t n o s t a g e d i d t h e B o a r d in d i c a t e t h a t i t h a s
s h o r tl is t e d M r G a m a a s s e c o n d in li n e p r e f e r r e d
candidate

to

embarked

on

Mr P r a v i n G o r d h a n
an

extended

and

the

search

Board

a ft e r

the

w i t h d r a w a l o f M r Pr a v in G o r d h a n a s i t w a s n o t
c o n fi d e n t

that

the

other

c a n d id a t e s

a v a i la b le

in c l u d i n g M r S i y a b o n g a G a m a w e r e s u it a b le fo r t h e
p o s i ti o n . ”
20

T h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e c o m m u n ic a t e d o r t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n
c o m m u n ic a te d to y o u i n th e r e p o r t . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k s o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n e x t b u l le t r e a d s :
“I

have

had

an

o p p o r tu n it y

to

peruse

the

in d e p e n d e n t a s s e s s m e n ts in r e s p e c t o f a ll t h e

Page 74 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
c a n d i d a t e s in t e r v i e w e d b y t h e B o a r d a n d h a v e
c o n fi d e n c e in t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b y th e B o a r d th a t
M r Si p h o M a s e k o ,

Ta u M o r w e

and

K g o m o ts o P h i h l e la a r e i n o r d e r o f p r e f e r e n c e th e
m o s t s u it a b l e c a n d id a t e s fo r a p p o in t m e n t a s C E O . ”
T h a t a l s o w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o m m u n ic a t e d t o y o u r s e l f i n t h e r e p o r t …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t t h is

had

th e

B o a r d ’s

a p p r o v a l a n d E x e c u tiv e a u t h o r i ty a p p r o v a l ?
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d th e n i n t h e la s t b u ll e t t h e

u r g e n c y o f th e a p p o i n t m e n t is s tr e s s e d . I t r e a d s :
“ I n th e i n t e r e s t o f e s t a b li s h in g le a d e r s h i p s t a b il i ty
a t Tr a n s n e t , a n a p p o i n t m e n t o f a C E O b e m a d e
w i t h o u t u n d u e d e l a y a n d th a t t h e u l ti m a t e c r i t e r i a
s h o u l d b e t h e c o n fi d e n c e t h a t th e B o a r d a n d t h e
s h a r e h o l d e r h a s in t h e c o m p e te n c e o f t h e c a n d i d a t e
t o l e a d th e o r g a n i s a t io n . ”
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t o b s e r v a ti o n ?
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No, no comment.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D o y o u a g r e e w i th i t?

Do you

d is a g r e e w it h i t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S o r r y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o – d o y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l h e s a y s n o c o m m e n t. N o c o m m e n t s a y s h e h a s

Page 75 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
n o o p i n i o n o n th e …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u d o n o t w i s h t o c o m m e n t o r

b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o i s s u e w it h i t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I said no comment.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is w h a t I w a n t e d to c l a r i fy.
D o y o u h a v e a n y is s u e w i t h t h a t … ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I d o n o t h a v e a n is s u e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

And

then

f i n a ll y

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is a t p a g e 4 - 3 - 6 .
10

“ I t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t n o t e s t h e
c o n te n ts o f th is m e m o r a n d u m ; a n d a p p r o v e s th e
s u b m is s io n

of

a

Cabinet

Me morandum

r e c o m m e n d i n g t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f Mr S i p h o M a s e k o
a s Tr a n s n e t ’s C E O . ”
I t s e e ms – b e f o r e I a s k y o u t o c o m m e n t M r Zu m a t h a t t h e
p r o c e s s h e r e w a s t h a t t h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e u n d e r ta k e n it s s e l e c t io n
p r o c e s s , r e c o r d e d t h a t s e l e c ti o n a n d p r e s e n t e d i t to y o u i n t h i s
memorandum.

I d o n o t k n o w w h a t o t h e r p r o c e s s e s m ig h t h a v e b e e n

f o ll o w e d a n d a s k e d y o u to a p p r o v e t h e s u b m is s i o n o f a C a b in e t
20

M e m o r a n d u m r e c o m m e n d in g t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f M r S ip h o M a s e k o ’s
Tr a n s n e t C E O .
S o y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d p r i o r t o it g o i n g t o C a b i n e t
a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t h e r e a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t w h a t e v e r th e o t h e r p r o c e s s e s
m i g h t h a v e b e e n . D i d y o u r e s p o n d to t h is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k s o . I th i n k I r e s p o n d e d i f

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
I r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
move

on

to

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u m a k e a fi n a l a n s w e r o n t h a t o r

th is

I

see

that

in

–

at

the

end

of

that

report

M s B a r b a r a H o g a n w a s a s k i n g y o u t o n o t e t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e r e p o r t …
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t o a p p r o v e t h a t t h e – t o a p p r o v e th e s u b m is s io n
o f a C a b i n e t M e m o r a n d u m r e c o m m e n d i n g t h e a p p o in t m e n t . I a m – I a m
s a y in g – I a m m e n t i o n i n g it b e c a u s e e a r li e r o n I t h i n k y o u d i d e m p h a s is
t h a t M i n is t e r s w o u l d c o m e t o th e Pr e s i d e n t fo r t h e P r e s id e n t t o n o t e …
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e c e r ta in m a t t e r s w h e r e t h e y w o u l d t h e n b e

taken to Cabinet.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

J u s t b e fo r e w e l e a v e t h e r e p o r t

M r Zu m a a g a i n t h i s is r e a l ly a – a r e q u e s t f o r s o m e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d
a s s is t a n c e fr o m y o u . If o n e g o e s t o p a g e 4 4 6 t h is is p a r t o f a n o p i n i o n
…
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k I m a y h a v e in t e r r u p t e d b o t h y o u a n d M r Zu m a .
Yo u h a d a s k e d h i m a q u e s ti o n w h e th e r h e h a d r e s p o n d e d to t h is r e p o r t
a n d I t h in k h e h a d i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e t h o u g h t h e h a d …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

Page 77 of 102

I w il l c o m e b a c k t o th a t

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e f i n is h e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e c a u s e I j u s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D o n o t w a n t to l e a v e t h e r e p o r t

now and I am (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll I w a n t – I w a n t to k n o w t h e a n s w e r
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l lo w m e t o d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t I w a n t t o k n o w t h e a n s w e r.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Mr Z u m a d id y o u r e s p o n d t o t h is m e m o r a n d u m i f
y o u r e m e m b e r – t h is r e p o r t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

There

were

so

many

memorandums.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Yo u k n o w – i f th e y c o m e l ik e

t h is u n l e s s t h e r e is a p r o b l e m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Where you could say this – no I
20

c a n n o t m o v e g e n e r a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

They – because you are not

d e c i d i n g t h e fi n a l th in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : L e t u s a ll o w t h e p r o c e s s to g o .

Page 78 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o n o r m a ll y y o u w o u ld a l lo w …
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u ld g r a n t th e a p p r o v a l th a t a M in is t e r is a s k in g
for unless there was a problem?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

A t ti m e s M in is t e r s d o n o t e v e n

c o m e . A t t i m e s t h e y s e n d th e d o c u m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A n d lo o k a t th e d o c u m e n t .

W h a t i s i m p o r ta n t is t h a t if a t a l l t h e r e is a p r o b l e m I w i ll t h e n i n d i c a t e
that no do not take it to the Cabinet right now …
CHAIRPERSON: As yet?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

U n ti l w e d is c u s s b u t g e n e r a l ly

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t i s ju s t – i t i s j u s t a f o r m a li ty.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s t o w h a t y o u d id w it h r e g a r d t o t h is o n e y o u a r e
not able to remember or you are able to remember?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I a m s a y i n g I a m n o t a b le t o
remember …

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Because they come all the time
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : To r e m e m b e r o n e i n th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ma ny of them …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B e c a u s e i t is n o t c o m i n g – i t is
10

n o t c o m i n g f o r m e to d i s c u s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t i s t o s a y t h i s is w h a t w e h a v e
done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

The process has come up to

t h is p o i n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

We

are

now

g o in g

to

the

C a b in e t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o r m a lly i f I d id n o t f o r a n

e x a m p l e s a y a n y th in g t h e m e m o r a n d u m g o e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I f th e r e i s a n y t h i n g th a t i s

p a r t ic u l a r I w o u l d t h e n s a y M i n is t e r, m e m o r a n d u m s o a n d s o t h e r e i s a

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
p r o b le m I w o u l d l ik e t o d is c u s s w i t h y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O r I w il l d is c u s s t h e p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I t d o e s n o t m e a n if f o r a n

e x a m p l e I d id n o t r e s p o n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

T h e n th e – th e m e m o r a n d u m

does not go. It goes a process …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

P a r ti c u la r ly t h e o ff ic ia ls t h e y

w i ll b e t a l k i n g m o r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

F o r e x a m p le t h e o ffic i a l fr o m

t h e M i n i s t e r w i ll s a y t o t h e o ff ic ia l w h o d e a ls w i th t h e C a b i n e t t h i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Is – is – h a s th e Pr e s i d e n t s a i d
a n y th in g o n t h i s o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

H e w il l s a y n o , n o n o t h in g n o

p r o b le m . I t g o e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I a m j u s t s a y in g a n d t h e r e a r e

m a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Where that happens.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k i f w e ta k e t h a t p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I t d i d n o t n e c e s s a r il y – e v e n i f

y o u d o n o t a g r e e w i th i t o r n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: It must go to Cabinet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f – i f e v e r t h e Pr e s id e n t w e r e to s a y to a M i n is te r
n o d o n o t t a k e t h i s o n e to C a b i n e t a s y e t I w a n t t o d i s c u s s s o m e t h i n g
w i t h y o u a b o u t i t . I t w o u ld b e s o m e t h in g q u i t e i m p o r t a n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s a b s o lu t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f it i s n o t s o m e t h i n g s o i m p o r t a n t t h e – t h e id e a

w o u ld b e t o s a y ta k e i t t h e r e w e w il l d is c u s s a t C a b i n e t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t i n t h e Pr e s id e n c y w o u l d t h e r e b e r e c o r d s o f

a n y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i f f o r e x a m p le - y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w – b u t i f
20

y o u d id r e s p o n d b y w a y o f a m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e M i n i s t e r o r a l e t te r
w o u ld y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h e r e w o u l d b e s u c h a r e c o r d i n t h e
P r e s i d e n c y o r y o u w o u ld n o t k n o w ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I n t h is p r o c e s s w e d o n o t

n e c e s s a r i ly w r i t e to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To M i n is t e r s ?

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : To t h e M i n i s t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

E i t h e r y o u a s k t h e M i n is te r t o

c o m e t o s a y I s e e k t h e c l a r i f ic a t i o n o r s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O r y o u t a lk to th e – e v e n t o t h e
o ffic i a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: From the Presidency …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Or the people who are in charge
o f t h e C a b i n e t it s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e S e c r e ta r i a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Yo u s a y te ll M i n is t e r s o a n d s o
t h e r e i s t h is k in d o f a n is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

20

M a y b e w e w il l c la r i fy i t in t h e

m e e ti n g o r w h a t e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

U n l e s s t h e m a t te r i s m o r e

s e r io u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t f e e ls t h is –

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
t h is c a n n o t p a s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

S i m p ly b e c a u s e t h e d e e p e r

d is c u s s io n a b o u t a n y t h i n g h e r e w il l b e i n t h e C a b i n e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e Pr e s id e n t a t ti m e m i g h t f e e l
t h is o n e b u t I s h o u ld n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t o p it ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : D e l a y th is …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B u t in t h e m e e ti n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t
w i ll s a y a t h is o w n ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : M i n is te r j u s t c l a r if y t h is o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: It depends how it goes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

May

I

ask

Mr Zuma

the

m e m o r a n d u m h a v i n g b e e n s u b m i t t e d t o y o u w i th a r e c o m m e n d a t io n w h o
20

w o u ld h a v e in y o u r o ff ic e h a d t o e n s u r e t h a t i t w e n t f u r th e r to C a b in e t ?
W o u l d t h e r e b e a r e s p o n s i b il i ty w i t h i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y t o d o t h a t ? H o w
w o u ld ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ye s .

I t i s – i t is t h e C a b i n e t

S e c r e t a r i a t w h o d o th e u p a n d d o w n w h e t h e r t h e th i n g m u s t g o o r n o t
g o a n d w h a t e v e r. F o r t h e Pr e s i d e n t is t o lo o k a t t h e t h i n g . H e w o u l d

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
b e a w a r e o f w h a t is h a p p e n in g . A l s o w i t h a n a i m o f g u i d i n g t h e m e e t in g
p r o p e r ly a n d th e S e c r e t a r i a t i f th e r e i s s o m e t h i n g f o r a n e x a m p le
b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w t h e p r o c e s s th a t th e y d o n o t t h in k i t is f in e .
T h e y c o u ld e v e n d e a l w i t h t h e d e p a r t m e n t o n t h e ir o w n to s a y
p l e a s e p u t t h is r i g h t o r s o m e t h i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O r a l e r t th e Pr e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

B e f o r e w e le a v e t h e r e p o r t o r

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s g iv e n t o y o u I w o u l d j u s t l ik e to a s k y o u o n e
q u e s t io n to a s s is t y o u . I f y o u h a v e n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o r a b ili t y t o a n s w e r
t h a t is a ls o f in e b u t i f o n e g o e s t o p a g e 4 4 6 r e d 4 4 6 . A t t h e b o t t o m o f
t h e p a g e p a r a g r a p h 5 y o u w i ll s e e r e fe r e n c e to a P r o t o c o l a n d u n d e r
the heading “General” at 5.1 it reads:
“ T h e P r o t o c o l w a s p u b l is h e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
P u b l ic

E n te r p r is e s

in c u lc a ti n g

good

in

1997

governance

w i th
in

a c c o r d a n c e w i th K i n g C o d e o f 2 0 0 2 .

a

v ie w

to

the

SOEs

in

The Protocol

t h u s d o e s n o t h a v e l e g is l a t iv e e ff e c t b u t s e ts o u t
20

t h e p r in c i p l e s o f c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e f o r S O E s .
T h e Pr o t o c o l a ls o d e a ls w i t h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t ,
d is q u a l if ic a ti o n a n d r e m o v a l o f D i r e c t o r s . ”
D o y o u k n o w a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t p r o t o c o l ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I r e m e m b e r i t s l ig h tl y, j a . I
t h i n k th e r e i s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d e t a ils in it .

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e r e w a s a p r o t o c o l .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
paragraph

quoted

in

th e

next

T h e r e is j u s t a n i n te r e s ti n g

paragraph

under

the

h e a d in g

“ A p p o i n t m e n t o f D ir e c t o r s . ” P a r a g r a p h “ 5 . 1 .6 . 1 ” . I t r e a d s :
“ T h e p e r fo r m a n c e o f th e S O E d e p e n d s o n th e
c a p a b il it i e s a n d p e r f o r m a n c e o f i ts B o a r d .

It is

t h e r e f o r e i m p e r a ti v e t h a t w h e n a p p o i n ti n g D ir e c t o r s ,
t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s h o u ld e n s u r e th a t t h e B o a r d is
10

p r o p e r ly c o n s ti t u t e d .

In this regard, the Board

s h o u l d , a t a ll ti m e s , c o m p r is e o f in d i v i d u a ls w i th
in t e g r i ty a n d a c c o u n t a b i li ty, c o m p e te n c e , r e l e v a n t
a n d c o m p l i m e n ta r y s k il ls , e x p e r ie n c e a n d e x p e r t is e .
T h i s is a i m e d a t a v o i d in g p o s s i b l e d o m i n a n c e b y
a n y o n e D i r e c t o r o r b lo c k s o f D ir e c to r s a n d , a b o v e
a l l, e n s u r i n g c o m m i t m e n t t o th e s u c c e s s o f t h e S O E
a n d th e s a ti s f a c t i o n o f t h e s h a r e h o l d e r. ”
W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t o r d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t in
r e l a ti o n t o t h a t ?
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No. No comment.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – y o u p u t t w o q u e s ti o n s a t th e s a m e t i m e

M r Pr e to r i u s . T h e o n e w a s w h e th e r h e w a s a w a r e o f t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e o t h e r w a s w h e t h e r h e h a s c o m m e n ts .

He has

a lr e a d y s a i d h e h a s n o c o m m e n t . W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t a t t h e ti m e ?

Page 86 of 102

17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I t h in k t h e r e w a s th is …
CHAIRPERSON: That paragraph?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : P r o v is io n , j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e h a v e h e a r d t h is m o r n i n g i n

r e l a ti o n t o th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f B o a r d M e m b e r s o f S t a te O w n e d E n ti t ie s
y o u r c o m m e n ts M r Z u m a a n d I t h in k y o u s a id it w a s n o r m a l o r h a p p e n e d
10

m o s t o f t h e ti m e .

C o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g b u t t h e M i n is t e r w o u ld

e n g a g e w i t h t h e p r e s i d e n t fr o m ti m e t o t i m e t o d is c u s s c a n d id a t e s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I s a i d s o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D id t h i s a p p l y t o H e a d s o f

G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n ts a s w e ll ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja, it …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t p r a c t ic e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t w o u ld . I t w o u l d a p p ly a s w e ll .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
the

s ta t e m e n t

of

Ms Hogan.

C h a ir I a m a b o u t t o g o b a c k t o

Perhaps

I

should

just

conclude.

Paragraph 40 on page 408.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Paragraph?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 0 o n 4 0 0 - a n d – p a g e - r e d 4 0 8 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 400-and …?

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 4 4 8 b u t t h e p a r a g r a p h M r P r e to r i u s y o u s a i d

what paragraph?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 0 – 4 - 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: I cannot see 4-0 at page 448.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 - 0 - 8 . C h a ir h a v e I … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 4 - 0 - 8 o r p a g e 4 - 4 - 8 ? L e t u s t a lk a b o u t th e p a g e
fir s t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 - 0 - 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

I m a y h a v e mi s l e d M r Zu m a .

I thought you

said 4-4-8.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O h , 4 - 4 - 8 I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m f o ll o w i n g i n s tr u c t io n s . R e d
4-0-8.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 - 0 - 8 , o k a y. Th a t i s t h e p a g e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 4 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g e t t h e r e f ir s t . L e t u s g e t t h e r e f ir s t t h e n w e
c a n ta lk a b o u t th e p a r a g r a p h .

I am at page 4-0-8 and I can see

p a r a g r a p h 4 0 . Ar e y o u t h e r e M r Z u m a ?
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja, I am there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n t h a t p a r a g r a p h s h e s a id th a t

she sent the memorandum to you. She describes it as comprehensive
r e p o r t o n o r a r o u n d 2 8 J u ly 2 0 0 9 a n d t h e n s h e s a y s i n t h e la s t
s e n te n c e :

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
“ H o w e v e r, Pr e s id e n t Zu m a d i d n o t r e s p o n d . ”
I p r e s u m e s h e m e a n s t o h e r.

D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r y o u d id

r e s p o n d to h e r o r n o t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No

I

do

not

–

I

do

not

r e m e m b e r. A s I s a i d e a r li e r i f t h e r e p o r t c o m e s i n th e m a j o r it y o f c a s e s
f o r t h e Pr e s id e n t t o – t o u n d e r s ta n d a n d r e a d t h e r e p o r t b u t n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly t o r e s p o n d a t a l l m a te r i a l ti m e s b e c a u s e t h a t – t h e r e p o r t
d o e s n o t e n d w i th th e Pr e s id e n t.

T h e r e p o r t s a r e - t h e fi n a l a r e a o f

lo o k in g a t t h e r e p o r t is t h e C a b i n e t .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

C h a ir w o u l d t h a t b e a

c o n v e n i e n t ti m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e w i ll t a k e th e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t n o w a n d w e
w i ll r e s u m e a t 2 o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s p r o c e e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Z u m a i f w e
c o u l d g o t o p a g e 4 0 8 , w e h a d d e a l t w it h p a r a g r a p h 4 0 b e f o r e th e lo n g
20

adjournment, do you have that paragraph?
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t is i t , ju s t r e p e a t f o r m e th e p a g e M r P r e to r i u s

a n d th e p a r a g r a p h ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 0 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Paragraph?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 0 , w e h a d c o m p l e t e d p a r a g r a p h

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
4 0 a n d I w o u l d l ik e to g o o n fr o m t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

C h a ir I’ m s o r r y, I’ m s o r r y t o

m a k e t h is in t e r r u p ti o n . I h a v e a p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I h ave a problem because I am
b e i n g m a d e t o g o th r o u g h t h e d e t a ils t h a t a r e t h e d e ta il s o f t h e o ff ic i a ls
a n d e x p e c t e d t o r e m e m b e r e v e r y o t h e r d e t a i l o n t h e w o r k t h a t g e n e r a l ly
is d o n e b y t h e D G ’s a n d t h e o ffi c i a l s .
10

T h e , t h e , t h e q u e s ti o n t h i s

m o r n in g , w e h a v e g o n e i n to t h o s e d e ta ils . I h a v e a p r o b le m b e c a u s e I
a m n o t a n o ff ic e r o r c a b i n e t s e c r e ta r y, t h o s e w h o t a k e m i n u t e s
e tc e t e r a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hmm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e m a n n e r in w h i c h I t h i n k I ’ m
b e i n g a s k e d q u e s t io n s o n th e d e t a ils t h a t I c a n n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r
p r o p e r ly, b e c a u s e I w a s n o t w o r k in g w i t h t h o s e d e ta il s . N o w n a t u r a ll y
t h is w il l h a v e i ts o w n r e s u lt s , th e r e s u l t s th a t w o u ld m a k e th e
C o m m i s s i o n t o t a k e s o m e c o n c l u s i o n s . N o w I th o u g h t t h e r e a r e s e r i o u s
is s u e s o r p o l ic y i s s u e s t h a t o n e c o u l d b e b o g g e d d o w n t o d e a l w i t h .

20

N o w i f w e t a k e t h is d o c u m e n t e it h e r t h e D G o r th e S e c r e ta r y f o r
C a b in e t o r s o m e th i n g th e y w o u ld k n o w e v e r y b o d y – t h e y w o r k e d o n it ,
a n d I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t th e p u r p o s e o f m e h a v i n g t o r e m e m b e r w h e r e
t h e i’s w e r e d o t te d a n d th e t ’s w e r e c r o s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t is fa ir t o s a y t h a t a s P r e s i d e n t th e r e w o u l d
b e c e r t a i n t h in g s th a t y o u m i g h t n o t k n o w b e c a u s e t h e y w ill b e d e a l t

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w i t h b y o ff ic i a ls a n d o t h e r p e o p l e a n d t h a t th e r e w il l b e c e r t a i n t h in g s
t h a t y o u w o u ld b e e x p e c te d to k n o w, I t h in k t h a t ’s fa ir, f a i r c o m m e n t .
W h e r e t h e r e m a y b e d i ff ic u l ty, a n d I th in k w e c a n h a v e a l o o k , a n d I d id
s a y e a r l ie r o n y o u a r e fr e e t o s a y l o o k I d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t, I w o u ld n ’ t
h a v e k n o w n t h a t y o u k n o w, a n d I t h i n k M r P r e t o r iu s m a y g o in g f o r w a r d
h a v e t o m a y b e a p p ly h is m i n d m o r e i n t e r m s o f w h a t is i m p o r ta n t th a t
y o u a r e l ik e l y t o h a v e k n o w n o r t o h a v e d e a lt w i t h to th e e x t e n t th a t
m a y b e s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s m ig h t b e q u e s ti o n s t h a t m ig h t n o t h a v e
f a ll e n w i t h i n w h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n , b u t I t h i n k w h a t h e m a y b e
10

tr y i n g to d o i s t o m a k e s u r e th a t i n t h e li g h t o f t h e a l l e g a ti o n s t h a t M s
B a r b r a H o g a n h a s m a d e f o r e x a m p le t h a t y o u i n te r f e r e d w i t h t h e
p r o c e s s e s o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f fo r e x a m p l e t h e C E O , G r o u p C E O f o r
Tr a n s n e t , a n d s h e g o e s i n to d e ta il s i n to h e r i n te r a c t i o n s w i th y o u o n
her version.
I t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t f o r th e C o m m i s s i o n t o u n d e r s t a n d fo r
e x a m p l e w h e n y o u g o t o th a t r e p o r t t h a t M r Pr e t o r i u s t o o k y o u th r o u g h
t o s a y d o y o u r e m e m b e r h a v in g r e c e iv e d t h is r e p o r t , d id y o u n o t e s o m e
o f t h e s e p o i n ts t h a t s h e m a d e fo r e x a m p l e t h a t t h e B o a r d h a d m a d e a
c e r t a i n r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .

20

Some of those may be important because

w h e n a d e c i s i o n h a s to b e m a d e a s t o w h e th e r w h a t s h e s a y s y o u s a id
w a s a c t u a l ly s a i d o r w h e t h e r y o u s a i d i t o r n o t , i t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t to
h a v e t h a t f u ll p ic t u r e , b u t a t a n y t i m e fe e l fr e e t o s a y t h o s e k in d o f
d e t a i ls w o u ld n ’t h a v e b e e n p a r t o f w h a t I w o u ld d e a l w i th , a n d I w o u ld
s i m p l y s a y t o M r P r e t o r iu s a s w e g o f o r w a r d d o h a v e a lo o k in t e r m s o f
w h a t ’s i m p o r t a n t fo r p u r p o s e s o f M r Z u m a in te r ms o f w h a t y o u a r e

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lo o k in g a t, s o in p r in c i p l e I a c c e p t t h e p o in t th a t t h e r e m a y b e d e t a i ls
t h a t a s p r e s i d e n t y o u w o u l d n ’ t k n o w b u t I th in k t h a t m a y b e t h a t M r
P r e t o r i u s d o e s n ’t w a n t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e h e d o e s n ’t p u t c e r t a i n t h i n g s
t o y o u o n ly to f i n d th a t la t e r o n t h e y b e c o m e r e l e v a n t i n t e r m s o f w h a t
e x a c tl y h a p p e n e d a n d th e n y o u h a v e n o t b e e n g i v e n a c h a n c e , t h a t ’s
m y t h in k i n g o f w h a t h e is d o i n g , b u t I t h in k g o in g fo r w a r d i t m a y b e t h a t
h e m i g h t w is h t o b e a r y o u r c o n c e r n in m i n d a s h e g o e s f o r w a r d .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I h e a r y o u C h a ir, I h e a r y o u , b u t
m y p r o b l e m d o e s n o t g o a w a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

F o r a n e x a m p l e t h e a ll e g a t io n

a s p u t fo r w a r d b y th e M in is t e r i s t h a t I i n t e r f e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

I don’t know what does that

m e a n , I d o n ’ t k n o w, b e c a u s e a Pr e s id e n t ta lk s t o h i s m i n is te r s a b o u t
the work they do.

I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is i t , i f f o r e x a m p le t h e r e

w e r e t o b e a n a p p o in t m e n t o f a n o ffic e r, t h e y c o n s u l t w it h th e Pr e s i d e n t
t h e Pr e s id e n t m i g h t h a v e v i e w s i n s o fa r a s d is c u s s in g t h a t th i n g . I d o n ’ t
u n d e r s t a n d t h is v e r y b r o a d w o r d “h e i n t e r f e r e d ” , in w h a t w a y ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e a r e n o t g e t t in g f o r e x a m p l e
t h a t p o in t .

W e a r e g o i n g t o p a r a g r a p h o n e l in e I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d ,

t h a t ’s m y p r o b l e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l to a c e r t a in e x t e n t w e a r e a t t h a t p o i n t b e c a u s e
w e h a v e d e a l t w i th a p o in t w h e r e s h e s a y s s h e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h y o u ,

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
w h e r e s h e b r i e f e d y o u o n t h e p r o c e s s fo r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e G r o u p
C E O a t Tr a n s n e t, a n d s h e s a y s a t t h a t m e e t in g s h e t o ld y o u t h a t t h e
B o a r d h a d r e c o m m e n d e d a c e r t a i n c a n d i d a t e a ft e r c o n s i d e r i n g a
n u m b e r o f c a n d id a t e s i n c l u d i n g M r G a m a , a n d s h e s a y s s h e w a s
s h o c k e d a n d d is a p p o i n te d w h e n y o u s a i d , a c c o r d in g t o h e r, y o u h a v e
o n ly o n e c h o ic e , th a t i s M r G a m a .
N o w t h a t s e e m s to m e i f it is tr u e w h a t s h e s a y s h a p p e n e d m a y
w e ll b e a n i n t e r fe r e n c e , I a m n o t s a y i n g i t is , i t m a y w e l l b e a n
in t e r fe r e n c e , I a m n o t s u r e .
10

Yo u m i g h t b e a b l e a s y o u s a y t o s a y a

P r e s i d e n t a n d a M i n i s t e r w o u l d d is c u s s s u c h is s u e s a s – a M i n i s t e r o f
P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s w o u l d d is c u s s is s u e s a s t o c a n d i d a t e s t o b e
c o n s i d e r e d b u t th e Pr e s id e n t if h e h a s a v i e w w o u ld e x p r e s s a v ie w b u t
w o u ld n o t b e s a y i n g h is v ie w is th e o n l y v ie w o r th e d e c is i v e v ie w a n d
t h a t g iv e s m e a t le a s t a n o t h e r v e r s i o n t o s a y w e ll s h e s a y s t h is is w h a t
w a s s a i d b u t y o u s a y t h i s is w h a t h a p p e n s , n o t w h a t s h e is s a y in g .
S o i n t e r m s o f t h a t r e p o r t Mr Pr e t o r i u s w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h it
b e c a u s e h e is s t ill l o o k i n g a t th a t is s u e a n d I d i d i n d ic a te e a r l ie r o n
t h a t in t e r m s o f h e r s t a te m e n t o f – i n te r ms o f a c c u s a t i o n s th a t s h e
m a k e s th a t ’s o n e o f t h e v e r y i m p o r t a n t a c c u s a ti o n s t h a t s h e m a k e s t h a t

20

m u s t b e d e a l t w i t h p r o p e r ly, s o i t m a y b e t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a in d e t a i ls
w h e r e y o u s a y lo o k I r e a l ly d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t p a r t , a n d I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w it
a s P r e s i d e n t a n d t h a t ’s l e g i ti m a t e , s o I a m s a y in g I h e a r y o u r c o n c e r n
a n d I w a n t t o u r g e M r Pr e t o r i u s t o b e a r i t i n m in d a s w e g o fo r w a r d t o
tr y a n d a v o i d d e t a i ls th a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e k n o w n a b o u t a s P r e s i d e n t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : C h a ir t h e a l le g a t i o n is t h a t t h e

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P r e s i d e n t i n t e r f e r e d , a n d s h e m a k e s t h e s t a t e m e n t w h ic h I h a v e – I
m e a n r e s p o n d e d to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

I would have never said so,

b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t a s a P r e s i d e n t , I c a n ’ t s a y I w a n t th is a n d i t s u c c e e d s
b e c a u s e i t is g o i n g t o g o t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s e s , e v e n i f I t a lk e d t o h e r.
N o m a t t e r w h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e d i s c u s s io n , th e m a t te r is g o in g to a
d is c u s s io n w h i c h w il l d e te r m i n e e v e n i f – j u s t f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e I h a d a
v ie w t h a t v i e w m ig h t n o t w o r k a t t h e e n d .
10

Now I have answered the

q u e s t io n th a t I n e v e r s a i d th a t . T h a t m u s t b e t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e
Commission.
N o w i f w e g o th r o u g h t h e d e t a il s I j u s t h a v e a p r o b l e m ,
b e c a u s e I a m n o l o n g e r d e a li n g w i th t h a t a ll e g a ti o n a s i t w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll l e t m e m a k e t h i s o th e r p o in t a n d s o m e o f t h i s

m i g h t b e s o m e t h in g t h a t I n e e d t o e x p l a in , i f f o r e x a m p le a s w e h a v e i n
r e l a ti o n to t h i s a c c u s a ti o n t h a t s h e m a k e s t h a t y o u i n t e r fe r e d w i t h th e
a p p o i n t m e n t p r o c e s s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e G r o u p C E O o f Tr a n s n e t s h e s a y s
y o u in t e r fe r e d a n d y o u s a y n o I n e v e r in t e r fe r e d a n d a c tu a l ly i t is n o t
tr u e t h a t I s a i d I h a d a c h o i c e o f t h e c a n d i d a t e s , n o t e v e n to s p e a k
20

a b o u t o n e – o n ly o n e c h o ic e , o r i f I s a id a n y t h i n g a b o u t c a n d id a t e s a ll I
m a y h a v e s a i d w a s m a y b e M r G a m a m i g h t h a v e b e e n o k a y b u t le t ’s g o
a n d t a lk a t C a b i n e t , o r y o u m i g h t s a y I d o n ’t th i n k I e x p r e s s e d a n y
p r e f e r e n c e i n e i th e r w a y a n d th a t ’s n o t h o w I n o r m a lly d e a l t w i th t h e s e
m a t t e r s a n d t h a t ’s n o t h o w a s f a r a s I k n o w a P r e s i d e n t d e a ls w i th
these matters.

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
A t a c e r ta i n s t a g e s h e m ig h t h a v e t o b e c a ll e d b a c k t o d e a l
w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e s a i d y o u c o u l d n ’ t h a v e s a i d th a t a n d
b e c a u s e i n t h e e n d I m a y h a v e t o m a k e a fi n d i n g a s t o d id t h e m e e t in g
t h a t s h e t a l k s a b o u t t a k e p l a c e b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u , a n d is i t tr u e
t h a t y o u s a i d w h a t s h e s a y s s h e s a id , a n d w h e n I lo o k a t t h a t I c a n ’ t
lo o k j u s t a t t h a t , I h a v e g o t t o l o o k a t a n u m b e r o f f a c t o r s r e l a ti n g t o
t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s o f t h e w h o le m a tt e r.

Th a t ’s w h e r e s o m e o f t h e

t h i n g s m ig h t b e r e l e v a n t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : C h a ir m y p r o b l e m y o u s e e i f s h e
10

s a i d I c a m e a n d I s a i d ( i n d is t in c t ) w it h t h is o n e , i t i s m y o n ly c a n d i d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A n d I d id n ’ t d o s o , t h e s e

m a t t e r s w h e r e y o u ta k e t h e d e c is io n i t is a t th e c a b i n e t. I n th e C a b in e t
a l l m e m b e r s i n c lu d i n g t h e P r e s id e n t h a s a r ig h t t o e x p r e s s a v i e w i n t h e
C a b in e t . N o w t h a t’s w h y I ’ m s a y in g I h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h th e – i f I ’ m
lo o k in g f o r th a t o r t h e C o m m is s i o n is lo o k i n g fo r t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g , th a t
n o w I m u s t g o t h r o u g h t h e d e t a i le d p a g e b y p a g e , p a r a g r a p h b y
paragraph.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e t h e p a r a g r a p h b y p a r a g r a p h m i g h t n o t b e
20

t h e b e s t w a y, i t m a y b e th a t Mr P r e t o r iu s m u s t l o o k a t t h e g i s t o f c e r t a i n
p o r t i o n s o f h e r s t a te m e n t a n d b e a b le t o p u t t h o s e to y o u r a t h e r th a n
paragraph by paragraph there.

T h e r e I t h i n k y o u m a y h a v e a p o in t

t h e r e , y o u k n o w M r P r e t o r iu s w i ll r e s p o n d b u t i t m a y b e t h a t h e n e e d s
t o lo o k a t a n u m b e r o f p a r a g r a p h s a n d g e t t h e g is t a n d p u t it ,
p a r t ic u l a r ly b e c a u s e y o u r v e r s io n is I c o u ld n o t h a v e s a i d t h i s , t h is i s

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n o t h o w t h i n g s h a v e w o r k e d a n d th e r e fo r e i t m i g h t n o t b e h e l p f u l t o g o
in t o c e r t a i n d e t a i ls b e c a u s e m y v e r s i o n is i t c o u l d n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d
a n d I a m n o w p u t t in g my o w n w o r d s – i t m a y b e t h a t y o u s a y c o u ld n ’ t
h a v e h a p p e n e d t h is w a y b e c a u s e i f it h a p p e n e d th is w a y i t w o u ld h a v e
b e e n i m p r o p e r a n d I w o u l d n ’ t h a v e d o n e t h a t k i n d o f th in g .
S o i f i t i s f in e w i th y o u I w a n t to u r g e M r Pr e t o r i u s to lo o k a t
tr y i n g th i n g s t h a t w a y a n d le t u s s e e h o w i t g o e s a n d i f t h e r e is s ti ll a
c o n c e r n t h e n y o u c a n r a is e i t a g a i n .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

Chair I hear you and I

a p p r e c ia t e w h a t y o u s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I a m b e in g r e a l ly c r o s s -

e x a m in e d , v e r y t h o r o u g h ly o n th e d e t a i ls a n d I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t w i ll b e
t h e o u t c o m e o f th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll – w e r e y o u s ti ll i n t h e m id d l e o f s a y i n g

s o m e t h i n g , I d o n ’t w a n t t o i n t e r r u p t y o u .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e y o u i n th e m i d d le o f m a k i n g a c e r t a i n p o i n t , I

d o n ’t w a n t t o i n t e r r u p t y o u ?
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o I w a s ju s t m a k i n g t h e v e r y

s a m e p o in t th a t i f w e a r e l o o k i n g o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r a l l e g a ti o n y o u k n o w
a s I w a s – l ik e d e a li n g w i t h h e r r e p o r t i n s o fa r a s w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e
c o n fe r e n c e o f t h e A N C fo r a n e x a m p l e a b o u t g r o u p s o r c l iq u e s o r
w h a t e v e r. I s a i d s h e i s e x p r e s s i n g h e r o w n v i e w s h e r e , a n d t h e s e a r e
m a t t e r s t h a t e v e n a n y o r d i n a r y A N C m e m b e r w il l t a k e i s s u e w i t h t h a t , i n

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t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h s h e h a s w r i tt e n h e r s t u ff h e r e .
N o w I ’ m s a y in g if I g o th r o u g h a l l o f t h a t a n d t h e C o m m i s s i o n
is n o t t a k i n g m y a n s w e r to t h e q u e s ti o n w h e t h e r I i n t e r fe r e d o r n o t,
e v e n i f I ’v e g iv e n th e a n s w e r w e w il l s t il l g o t o t h e d e t a i ls .

For me

w h a t o th e r a n s w e r m u s t I g i v e t h a t w il l m a k e t h e C o m m i s s io n t o b e
s a ti s f i e d , i s i t to g o t o th e d e t a i ls i n o n e fo r m o r t h e o t h e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u s e e w h e n Ms B a r b r a H o g a n g a v e h e r v e r s i o n
t o s a y y o u i n t e r f e r e d t h e C o m m i s s io n d i d n ’ t a c c e p t w h a t s h e s a i d a s
tr u e , a s n e c e s s a r i ly t r u e , t h a t ’s h o w I s h o u l d p u t i t . E q u a lly w h e n y o u
10

s a y w h a t s h e is s a y in g is n o t tr u e , t h e C o m m i s s io n d o e s n ’ t n e c e s s a r il y
a t t h is s t a g e s a y w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is tr u e , a t th is s t a g e t h e
Commission is

h e a r i n g d i ff e r e n t w it n e s s e s s a y i n g w h a t t h e y h a v e to

s a y o n c e r t a i n is s u e s , t h e r e w ill c o m e a t i m e w h e n t h e C o m m i s s i o n
m u s t w e i g h t u p a ll th e e v i d e n c e a n d s e e a n d d e c i d e w h a t i t d e c i d e s is
tr u e , b u t a t t h is s t a g e i t – j u s t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e s a id w h a t s h e s a y s
h a p p e n e d is n o t t r u e t h e C o m m is s i o n c a n n o t s a y t h a t is t h e e n d o f t h e
m a t t e r, i t m u s t s t il l lo o k a t a ll r e l e v a n t c i r c u m s t a n c e s s o t h a t w h e n a t
t h e e n d o f i ts w o r k i t h a s t o w e i g h u p a n d d e c i d e i t h a s a f u l l p i c t u r e ,
t h a t is t h e a t te m p t , t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t h a s a fu ll p ic t u r e fr o m a ll s i d e s
20

b e f o r e th a t t i m e c o m e s .
M a y b e I s h o u l d a ll o w Mr . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

B u t t h e d e t a i ls C h a ir t h e y w il l

in c l u d e m e n o t r e m e m b e r i n g th e s e d e t a il s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t e v e n
m i n d a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t w o u ld y o u d o w h e r e I p e r h a p s a m s a y i n g I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r, I c a n n o t c o m m e n t , y o u w i ll w e ig h a ll o f t h a t , th a t is

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17 JULY 2019 – DAY 135
m y p o in t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I f y o u m a d e m e to g o t h r o u g h

e v e r y o t h e r th i n g h e r e w h ic h it c o u l d n o t b e m y, ( i n d is ti n c t) o f m y
a c ti v i ti e s , a n d t h a t i s w h y I h a v e g o t a w o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , le t m e h e a r w h a t M r Pr e t o r i u s h a s to s a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l C h a i r i f Ms H o g a n

i m p l ic a t e s i n h e r e v id e n c e Mr Z u m a d i r e c t l y w e a r e n o t o n l y d u ty - b o u n d
t o p u t i t , b u t i t is fa ir t o p u t i t in a l l i ts r e l e v a n t d e t a il .
10

I f M r Zu m a

c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t is th e e n d o f t h e s t o r y, b u t i f a r e p o r t d e a l in g
w i t h a p a r ti c u l a r r e q u e s t a n d s tr e s s in g t h e u r g e n c y o f t h e r e q u e s t is
a d d r e s s e d to M r Z u m a a n d Mr Z u m a s a y s h e r e c e i v e d th e r e p o r t a n d h e
c o n s i d e r e d i ts c o n t e n t s t h e n it s c o n te n ts m a y o r m a y n o t b e r e l e v a n t
b u t c e r t a in ly s h o u l d b e p u t i n t h e s e n s e t h a t M r Z u m a h a s a c h a n c e t o
c o m m e n t , s o t h a t w h e n s u b m is s i o n s a r e m a d e a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y o n e
ju s t d o e s n o t s a y h e r e ’s t h e r e p o r t , Mr Zu m a a c k n o w le d g e d r e c e iv in g i t,
h e is i n a s e n s e – m u s t b e a c c e p t to h a v e a g r e e d t o i ts c o n t e n t s . T h a t
w o u ld b e u n fa ir.
B u t I u n d e r s t a n d th e c o m p l a i n t i n r e l a ti o n to s t r e s s i n g d e t a i l

20

a n d I a m a b o u t to g e t t o t h e g i s t o f t h e m a tt e r n o w, i n w h i c h I w il l p u t
a s u p t o t h i s p o i n t a t l e a s t i n b r o a d s u m m a r y w h a t M s H o g a n is s a y i n g
t o e n a b le M r Zu m a t o a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h in k m a y b e w h a t y o u s h o u l d tr y a n d d o is t o tr y
a n d a v o i d th e k i n d o f d e t a i ls t h a t m i g h t n o t h e l p i n d e c i d i n g w h a t
a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d w i th r e g a r d to t h is in c i d e n t , a n d j u s t b e a r i n m i n d h is

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c o n c e r n s , h is c o n c e r n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e w ill b e a r i t i n m i n d . I f t h e a t te m p t th a t w i ll b e
m a d e a f t e r s o m e ti m e i t l o o k s l ik e i t s ti ll d o e s n o t m e e t y o u r c o n c e r n
p l e a s e f e e l fr e e t o r a is e i t a g a i n . S o m e ti m e s i t is n o t a s e a s y a s i t i s
b u t M r Pr e to r i u s w i ll tr y. O k a y.
M r Zu m a is n o t a g r e e – o h I’ m s o r r y, Mr S i k h a k a n e , I d id n ’t s e e
your hand.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E:
10

C h a i r I a m g o i n g t o b e v e r y c a u ti o u s , y o u

r a i s e d y o u r v o i c e l a s t ti m e I r a is e d t h i s c o m p la i n t , s o I a m g o i n g t o
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E:

I th i n k I a m g o i n g t o h a v e t o r e p e a t w h a t I

s a i d t o y o u a n d M r P r e to r i u s i n a p r iv a t e p la c e in c h a m b e r s , I d o n ’ t
w a n t t o d o t h a t , b u t w h a t I n e e d t o d o n o w I w o u l d li k e to h a v e a n
a d j o u r n m e n t , I h a v e a v i e w t h a t m y c l ie n t w a s b r o u g h t in h e r e u n d e r
f a ls e p r e t e n c e s , a n d n o w I a m n e e d h i m t o ta k e , t o m a k e u p h i s m in d
w h e t h e r h e w a n t s t o b e c r o s s - e x a m i n e d , b e c a u s e it i s c l e a r, i t h a s ju s t
b e e n c o n f ir m e d h e is b e i n g c r o s s - e x a m in e d . A ll I a m a s k i n g C h a ir, a ll I
20

a m a s k i n g , I a m g o i n g to r e p e a t t h e th in g s I s a i d t o b o t h y o u a n d Mr
P r e t o r i u s , b u t f o r n o w b e c a u s e I a d v is e d m y c l ie n t t o r e s p e c t t h i s
p r o c e s s , c o m e h e r e , c o o p e r a t e w it h i t , I w a n t h i m t o c o n s i d e r th a t
p o s i ti o n , b e c a u s e I t h i n k I a d v i s e d h i m i n b o n a f id e b u t I d o n o t t h i n k I
w a s r i g h t, a n d I w o u l d l ik e h i m t o c o n s i d e r h is p o s i t io n , b e c a u s e n o w i t
is c le a r t o m e h e is b e i n g c r o s s - e x a m i n e d o n t h e v e r s io n , n o t h i s

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version, on what people said.

I do think I need an adjournment with

him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h o w m u c h ti m e d o y o u n e e d ?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E:

C h a i r i f y o u g i v e m e 3 0 m in u t e s , I w i ll c o m e

b a c k a t t h r e e , s o th a t .. .( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h r e e o ’c l o c k ?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I w i ll g i v e y o u , w e w il l a d j o u r n f o r 3 0 m i n u t e s ,
w e w ill r e s u m e a t t h r e e . T h a n k y o u , w e a d jo u r n .
10

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a d s a i d w e w o u l d r e s u m e a t t h r e e o ’c l o c k i t d id n o t
h a p p e n . T h a t w a s b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e s t il l d is c u s s i o n s th a t w e r e g o i n g
on.

As y o u k n o w w e a d j o u r n e d b e c a u s e t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t h a d

e x p r e s s e d c e r ta i n c o n c e r n s w i th r e g a r d t o th e d e t a i ls o r q u e s t i o n s o r
s o m e o f t h e q u e s t io n s th a t h e w a s b e in g a s k e d a n d h is c o u n s e l
expressed those concerns as well and requested an adjournment so
t h a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t a n d h is l e g a l t e a m c o u l d r e f le c t o n t h e
s i tu a ti o n .
20

T h e – th e r e h a s b e e n a d is c u s s io n i n v o lv i n g m e a n d t h e

le g a l te a m o f th e c o m m i s s i o n a s w e l l a s t h e le g a l t e a m f o r t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t . T h e y – b o t h s i d e s m a d e a c e r t a i n s u g g e s t i o n w h ic h I h a v e
agreed to.

T h is c o m m i s s i o n w o u ld li k e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a s f a r a s

p o s s i b le i t t a k e s e v e r y b o d y o n b o a r d . A t l e a s t i t s h o u l d m a k e a t t e m p ts
a s fa r a s p o s s i b l e to d o s o .

T h e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t h a s e x p r e s s e d

c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s a n d w h a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d is th a t th e r e s h o u ld b e a n

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o p p o r t u n i ty fo r b o th t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s le g a l t e a m a n d th e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t ’s l e g a l t e a m t o lo o k a t t h e c o n c e r n s a n d s e e w h e t h e r a w a y
c a n b e f o u n d i n w h ic h t h e y c a n b e a c c o m m o d a t e d w i th o u t t h e
c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m c o m p r o m is in g th e ir j o b th a t t h e y n e e d t o d o i n
t e r m s o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . I t h a s b e e n d e c id e d t h a t w e s h o u ld a d jo u r n
the proceedings for the day and we should not sit tomorrow in order to
g iv e a f u ll o p p o r t u n i ty to t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m a n d th e fo r m e r
P r e s i d e n t ’s l e g a l t e a m w h ic h w o u l d in v o lv e t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t a s w e l l
b e c a u s e h e is c o n c e r n e d in t h e m a t te r t o s e e w h e t h e r a w a y c a n b e
10

f o u n d i n w h i c h h is c o n c e r n s a r e a d d r e s s e d w i th o u t t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s
le g a l t e a m c o m p r o m i s i n g a n y p a r t o f t h e ir o b li g a ti o n s .

We – I must

t a k e t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y th a t I s a i d y e s t e r d a y I t h i n k I s a i d i t
y e s t e r d a y t h a t I b e l ie v e d t h a t a l l s i d e s w e r e tr y i n g to fi n d s o lu t io n s t o
w h a t e v e r is s u e s a r o s e a n d I in d ic a te d y e s t e r d a y f o r e x a m p l e t h a t th e
f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t ’s c o u n s e l o r l e g a l t e a m i n d ic a t e d th a t th e y d i d n o t
w a n t M r Pr e to r i u s t o b e l o o k i n g o v e r h i s s h o u l d e r a s h e w a s a s k in g
q u e s t io n s . T h e y d i d n o t w a n t to k e e p o n r a i s i n g t o r a is e o b j e c ti o n s .
T h e y w e r e g o i n g t o r a i s e o b j e c t io n s o n l y i f it w a s s o m e th i n g r e a lly
s e r io u s . S o t h e r e h a v e b e e n a n is s u e n o w t h e y w i ll c o m e t o g e t h e r a n d
20

t h e y h a v e d is c u s s e d a n d a d e c is i o n h a s b e e n t a k e n t h a t l e t t h e r e b e
ti m e t o l o o k a t i s s u e s a n d s e e i f c o m m o n g r o u n d c a n b e f o u n d s o t h a t
t h e n w e c a n c o n t in u e .

S o w e a r e th e r e fo r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e

p r o c e e d i n g s u n t il Fr i d a y m o r n i n g . I a m c o n fi d e n t t h a t a w a y t h a t th e r e
a r e r e a s o n a b le p r o s p e c ts t h a t a w a y w il l b e fo u n d t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e
c a n p r o c e e d w i th a c e r t a i n u n d e r s t a n d i n g . S o w e w il l h a v e to w a i t u n t il

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Fr id a y b u t to m o r r o w a l l s i d e s w il l b e in t e r a c t in g w i th o n e a n o th e r – w i t h
e a c h o th e r t o tr y a n d s e e h o w o r t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t h a v e b e e n r a i s e d b y
t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t c a n b e a c c o m m o d a t e d .
o u g h t to b e p o s s i b l e t o fi n d a w a y.

I a m c o n fi d e n t t h a t i t

U n l e s s t h e r e is a n y t h i n g t h a t

c o u n s e l fo r th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t o r M r P r e t o r i u s w a n ts to s a y I a m
h a p p y t h a t w e a d j o u r n . I t h in k b o th in d ic a te t h a t t h e y h a v e n o t h i n g t o
s a y. W e th e r e f o r e a d j o u r n u n t il Fr i d a y 1 0 : 0 0 a m . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 9 J U LY 2 0 1 9
10

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