C O M M S I O N O F I N Q U I R Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT BRAAMFONTEIN CHAMBERS 10 17 MARCH 2020 D AY 2 2 5 20 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 17 MARCH 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r S o n i , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: W e a r e s t a r ti n g a li t tl e la t e r t h a n w e s h o u l d h a v e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a m a t t e r th a t I n e e d e d t o d is c u s s w it h M r S o n i . A n d I t h i n k w e m u s t s t a r t w i th th a t Mr S o n i . W e w il l s ta r t w i t h t h a t s o t h a t everybody knows how today stands. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir p e r s o n h a v i n g r e f le c te d o n e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n l e d s i n c e l a s t w e e k a n d s o m e o f th e e v i d e n c e le d b y M s N g o y e I – w e h a v e c o m e t o th e c o n c l u s io n th a t i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y f o r u s to m a k e f u r t h e r e n q u ir ie s a n d i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n to c e r t a in m a t t e r s . I d o n o t n e e d t o d e t a i l th e m a t th is s t a g e C h a ir p e r s o n b u t t h o s e e n q u ir i e s w o u l d in f a c t g iv e y o u e s p e c i a l ly b u t th e p u b l ic a b e tt e r p ic t u r e o f w h a t is it t h a t P R A S A – t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n t o P R A S A b e revealed. We have some of the versions we do not have all of the v e r s i o n s a n d w e n e e d to p u r s u e th o s e w e s u b m it i n o r d e r f o r y o u t o g iv e y o u a c o m p l e t e p ic t u r e . S o w h a t I a m g o i n g to p r o p o s e o b v i o u s ly 20 s u b j e c t t o y o u r a p p r o v a l C h a ir p e r s o n is t h a t a f t e r M s N g o y e ’s e v id e n c e t o d a y w e a d jo u r n t h e p r o c e e d in g s i n r e l a ti o n to P R A S A a n d p e r h a p s b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o t h i n g e ls e s a i d b u t i n r e l a ti o n to P R A S A u n t il w e a r e a b l e t o g i v e y o u a m o r e c o m p l e t e p ic t u r e a n d t h a t s h o u l d n o t t a k e m o r e t h a n a b o u t t w o o r t h r e e w e e k s fo r u s t o c o m p le t e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 2 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o I t h i n k t h a t – t h a t is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e f o r e x a m p l e y e s t e r d a y t h e r e w e r e s o m e i m p o r ta n t d o c u m e n t s th a t w e – n e e d s t o b e o b ta i n e d a p a r t fr o m s o m e t h a t M s N g o y e s a i d s h e c o u l d g e t . I k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a ls o a d o c u m e n t th a t w a s r e fe r r e d t o in M r M o le f e ’s e v id e n c e ( i n d i s t i n c t) P R A S A’s t h a t a ls o n e e d s t o b e s e a r c h e d f o r a n d fo u n d i f p o s s i b l e a n d o b t a in e d . S o I t h in k – I t h in k i t w o u l d b e – i t w o u l d h e lp t h a t w h e n th e e v i d e n c e is p r e s e n t e d w e a lr e a d y h a v e a c o m p le t e p i c tu r e b y w a y o f a t l e a s t s t a te m e n t s , a ff i d a v i ts s o th a t b e f o r e t h e w i tn e s s f in is h e s t h e v e r s i o n s o f p e o p l e t h a t s h e i m p li c a t e s i n s o m e 10 w r o n g d o i n g w e w il l h a v e b e e n p u t t o h e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t s u b j e c t t o a c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n a p p li c a t i o n b e i n g g r a n t e d s u b j e c t to t h a t w h e n s h e is fi n is h e d s h e w o u l d h a v e fi n i s h e d h e r e v id e n c e a s f a r a s w e a r e c o n c e r n e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : y e s . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w o u l d b e – s h o u l d b e th e s a m e w i t h M r M o le f e b e c a u s e h e w a s g o in g to c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is n e c e s s a r y t o a l s o o b t a i n c e r t a i n a ff i d a v i ts i n 20 r e l a ti o n t o h is e v id e n c e . I a m s u r e w i t h M r D i n g is w a y o a s w e l l . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: detail. Th a t t h e r e m a y b e o th e r s th a t w e d o n o t n e e d to B u t a ls o th e r e is a p e r s o n a l m a t t e r t h a t I n e e d t o a t t e n d to w h ic h is a ls o a n o t h e r r e a s o n . S o w e w i ll t r y a n d g o u p to t h e e n d o f M s N g o y e ’s e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n w e w i ll a d j o u r n a n d t h e n w e w il l r e s u m e Page 3 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 o n c e t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n is c o m p l e t e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t a g a in f o r t h e r e c o r d w e a r e e m b o l d e n in g i n m a k i n g t h a t p r o p o s a l t o y o u b e c a u s e y o u w i ll r e c a l l a t the outset I said we intended presenting the evidence in two stages. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o t h e s e c o n d s ta g e w i ll n o w e n c a p s u la t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h is p l u s w h a t w e h a d i n te n d e d ( i n d is ti n c t) ( C h a i r s p e a k i n g o f Mr S o n i) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , n o t h a n k y o u . O k a y. M s N g o y e y o u a r e s til l u n d e r o a t h is t h a t a lr i g h t ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w M s N g o y e y e s t e r d a y w e f in is h e d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e la t i o n t o t h e Si y a y a ( i n d is ti n c t) . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d ju s t t o p u t i t i n c o n t e x t y o u w i ll r e c a ll t h a t t h e r e a s o n y o u h i g h li g h te d t h e S iy a y a m a tt e r s i s b e c a u s e t h e f ir s t o f t h e p e r s o n w h o r e c e iv e d b e n e fi ts fr o m S i y a y a o r r u n s S iy a y a – th e i d e n ti t y 20 o f t h e p e r s o n . Yo u r e m e m b e r t h a t? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h o i s t h a t p e r s o n ? M S N G O Y E : Mr M a b u n d a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : R i g h t. N o w e a r li e r y e s t e r d a y w h e n y o u g a v e evidence you indicated… Page 4 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : I a m s o r r y I th in k s h e is r e f e r r in g to M r M a b u n d a f o r t h e fir s t t i m e i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . M a y b e s h e c a n g iv e f u ll n a m e s ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fu ll n a m e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n a m e s t h a t y o u k n o w r a th e r t h a n j u s t M r M a b u n d a . MS NGOYE: I – CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot remember his name? M S N G O Y E : T h e n a m e e s c a p e s m e C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o t h a t i s f in e . O k a y. H e w i ll b e i n s o m e document. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Is i t n o t Mr M a k h e n s a M a b u n d a . MS NGOYE: Makhensa Mabunda. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S N G O Y E : Mr M a k h e n s a M a b u n d a . T h a n k y o u C o u n s e l . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y e s te r d a y w h e n y o u g a v e e v id e n c e in r e fe r r i n g to t h e m a j o r b e n e fic i a r i e s o f t h e s e c o n tr a c ts o n e t h e n a m e s y o u m e n t i o n e d w a s M r M a b u n d a w h o i s t h e o th e r p e r s o n t h a t y o u id e n t i fi e d a s a m a j o r b e n e fi c i a r y o f P R A S A c o n t r a c t s / 20 M S N G O Y E : W e l l i t is M r M o o d l e y C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t M o o d le y is h e ? M S N G O Y E : I th in k I a m h a v i n g a b a d d a y to d a y C h a ir i n r e m e m b e r i n g the names. Mr… A D V VA S S O N I S C : R o y M o o d l e y. M S N G O Y E : R o y M o o d l e y y e s . S o i t is M r R o y M o o d le y th e fi r s t o n e Page 5 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 a n d t h e s e c o n d is M r M a b u n d a t h o s e a r e t h e t w o g e n t le m e n I r e f e r r e d t o i n m y e v id e n c e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w in r e g a r d t o M r M a b u n d a a n d h is c o m p a n y, t h e S iy a y a c o m p a n ie s y o u r e f e r t o th e d is p u t e s t h a t h a d b e e n r e f e r r e d t o a r b i tr a ti o n . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A r e t h e r e a n y d is p u t e s th a t h a v e b e e n t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r o f li t ig a ti o n i n r e l a ti o n to M r M o o d l e y ’s c o m p a n i e s i f I c o u ld p u t it b r o a d ly ? 10 M S N G O Y E : W e ll y e s i n r e l a ti o n t o M r M o o d le y ’s c o m p a n i e s w e h a v e g o t y o u k n o w o t h e r m a t t e r s th a t h a v e n o t n e c e s s a r il y b e e n r e f e r r e d to h e r e . O n e o f th e c o m p a n ie s t h a t M r M o o d le y is a s s o c i a t e d w i t h a n d is a d ir e c t o r o f is t h e R o y a l S e c u r i ty C o m p a n y a n d I d o k n o w t h a t i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t s p e c i fic c o m p a n y t h e r e is c u r r e n t l i ti g a t i o n h a p p e n in g . T h a t c o m p a n y p r o v i d e s s e c u r i ty f o r P R A S A a n d I t h i n k it i s a w e llk n o w n is s u e th a t th e s e c u r i ty c o n tr a c t is w i t h P R A S A t a k i n g P R A S A t o c o u r t . S o R o y a l S e c u r i ty i s o n e o f th o s e c o m p a n ie s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h a v e t h e r e b e e n a n y m a t t e r s i n w h ic h y o u h a v e b e e n in v o lv e d w h e r e Mr M o o d l e y ’s c o m p a n i e s a r e t h e s u b j e c t o f 20 li ti g a t i o n ? MS NGOYE: S iy a n g e n a i s t h e b i g o n e C h a ir p e r s o n . Siyangena Te c h n o l o g i e s is t h e b ig o n e w h e r e M r M o o d l e y y o u k n o w i s a ls o in v o lv e d . CHAIRPERSON: I h a v e t o f in d a w a y o f n o t c o n fu s i n g S i y a y a a n d S iy a n g e n a . S iy a n g e n a r e la t e s – is a s s o c i a t e d w i t h Mr R o y M o o d l e y ? Page 6 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : A ls o y e s . S iy a n g e n a is n o t t h e … CHAIRPERSON: And who else? M S N G O Y E : I t is Mr R o y M o o d l e y a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : H is s o n . MS NGOYE: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : H is s o n . M S N G O Y E : H is s o n w a s S t r a w b e r r y W o r x . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M S N G O Y E : T h e a d v e r tis in g p o r t f o l i o . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS NGOYE: S o h e b a s ic a l ly is m o r e in v o lv e d i n t h i s o n e , t h e S iy a n g e n a C o n tr a c t . CHAIRPERSON: So – so… M S N G O Y E : A n d th e P r o d ig y o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o u t o f a ll th e n a m e s t h a t g e t m e n t io n e d i n r e g a r d t o S i y a n g e n a h e r e h e i s t h e p e r s o n a s s o c i a te d w i t h S i y a n g e n a ? M S N G O Y E : H is n a m e d o e s c o m e u p C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: B u t is t h e r e s o m e b o d y e ls e in S iy a n g e n a w h o g e ts m e n ti o n e d i n th e – w h o e ls e ? 20 M S N G O Y E : Ye s q u i t e a b i t . T h e r e is Mr G a n j o ( ? ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M S N G O Y E : T h e r e i s Mr M o n t a n a h i m s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS NGOYE: And… C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e p e r s o n t h a t – th e p e r s o n fr o m S iy a n g e n a t h a t Page 7 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 P R A S A r e a l ly i n te r a c t e d w i th m o s tly w o u l d h a v e b e e n M r R o y M o o d l e y ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y r ig h t . A n d S iy a y a ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y M r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y M r C h a ir I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o p la c e o n r e c o r d t o a s s is t t h e c o m m i s s io n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S iy a n g e n a i s a c o m p a n y t h a t d o e s n o t h a v e M r M o o d l e y a s a d i r e c to r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t i s t h e ir c o m p a n y s o th e y m u s t b e c l e a r o n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e f o l l o w t h e w i t n e s s ’s e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : T h e w i t n e s s i s f a m i li a r w i t h w h o t h e d i r e c to r s a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : As w e l l i n c l u d i n g th e s e o th e r c o m p a n i e s lik e S tr a w b e r r y W o r x a n d P r o d ig y ’s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h ils t t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n a p p e a r a n c e s i n c e r ta i n in s t a n c e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 8 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s t h e w i tn e s s c o r r e c tl y p o i n ts o u t h e r e a n d t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t u lt i m a t e ly th e s e a r e n o t h i s c o m p a n i e s a n d I p u t it in in v e r t e d c o m m a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B e c a u s e t h e w i tn e s s is f a m i li a r w i t h w h o t h e d ir e c t o r s a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s t h e H e a d o f L e g a l s h e w o u l d b e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I j u s t w a n t to c l a r i fy s o – f o r J u d g e . S o t h e n w e h a v e S iy a n g e n a w h i c h is a d i ffe r e n t c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u h a v e S iy a y a w h i c h h a s d i ff e r e n t d ir e c t o r s a n d d i ff e r e n t r o le p l a y e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h ic h i s – t h a t is ju s t t o a s s is t J u d g e o n th a t a s p e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is f i n e . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . O k a y 20 n o w a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d S iy a n g e n a is a s s o c i a t e d w i t h Mr R o y Moodley? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir t h e r e i s – t h e r e is – i n f a c t if I c a n c l a r if y t h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS NGOYE: T h e r e is a c o m p a n y t h a t w a s p a id b y S i y a n g e n a t h a t is a s s o c i a t e d w i th M r R o y M o o d l e y. Page 9 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : A n d I w il l c o m e to t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n in a m o m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w h e n – fr o m y o u r p o in t o f v i e w w h e n I h e a r t h e n a m e S i y a n g e n a I m u s t t h in k o f M r R o y M o o d l e y ? M S N G O Y E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d S iy a y a ? M S N G O Y E : Si y a y a is M r M a k h e n s a M a b u n d a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 W it h o u t g o i n g i n t o d e t a i ls y o u w e r e s a y in g th a t S iy a n g e n a p a i d a c o m p a n y w h ic h is a s s o c i a te d w i t h M r R o y M o o d le y. M S N G O Y E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t is t h e a p p r o x i m a te a m o u n t M s N g o y e ? M S N G O Y E : I t is R 5 0 0 m il li o n C h a i r p e r s o n . C h a i r I m u s t a ls o s a y t h a t t h is w a s a ls o p ic k e d u p y o u k n o w w h e n t h e m e d ia b r o u g h t t h i s t o th e a tt e n ti o n o f P R A S A . p ic k u p t h i s . however S o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t w e c o n d u c te d d i d n o t T h i s w a s a n is s u e t h a t w a s p ic k e d u p i n t h e m e d i a b u t P R A S A t h e n i n c o r p o r a t e s t h is i s s u e i n r e l a ti o n t o th e ( in d is ti n c t) y o u k n o w s u b m is s io n a n d i t i s i n c l u d e d in t h e r e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i n r e g a r d t o t h e d is p u t e b e tw e e n P R A S A a n d 20 S iy a n g e n a w h a t is th e n a t u r e o f th e d is p u t e a n d w h e r e is t h e d i s p u te ? MS NGOYE: C h a i r p e r s o n th e d is p u te b e t w e e n P R A S A a n d S iy a n g e n a is a r o u n d y o u k n o w p a y m e n ts o f m o n ie s t h a t S iy a n g e n a s a y s i t is o w e d by PRASA. B u t w h e r e P R A S A w a n ts t o r e v ie w a n d s e t a s i d e a ll t h e c o n tr a c ts th a t h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d w i t h S iy a n g e n a . S o w e w o u l d l ik e t h a t – th o s e c o n tr a c ts to b e s e t a s i d e a n d a s p a r t o f th o s e c o n t r a c ts Page 10 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h e r e h a v e b e e n a r b i tr a t io n p r o c e e d i n g s t h a t h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t b y S iy a n g e n a in r e la t io n to t h e ir p a y m e n t s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I w il l s a y t h i s b e c a u s e I w a n te d t o s a y – a s I s a i d I t h i n k w a s i t d u r i n g Mr P o p o M o le f e ’s e v i d e n c e a li ti g a n t d o e s n o t r e v ie w i t is th e c o u r t t h a t r e v i e w s a n d s e t a s i d e . M S N G O Y E : O k a y th e c o u r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A li t ig a n t a p p li e s t o th e c o u r t . M S N G O Y E : Fo r t h e r e v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a s k t h e c o u r t t o r e v ie w a n d s e t a s i d e i n c e r t a i n 10 d e c is i o n s . M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S N G O Y E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w c a n I a s k y o u t o lo o k a t B u n d le B a n d F S 3 B C h a ir p e r s o n th a t i s a t B u n d l e B p a g e 1 2 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e r e a r e – a r e y o u f a m il ia r w i t h t h e s e p a p e r s M s Ngoye? 20 M S N G O Y E : Ye s I a m C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : R ig h t . Fi r s tl y w o u l d y o u te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t t h is – w h a t t h is d o c u m e n t is ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r s o n t h is is th e a p p lic a ti o n t h a t w a s b r o u g h t b y P R A S A i n r e l a ti o n to t h e S iy a n g e n a c o n tr a c ts a p p ly in g f o r t h e r e v ie w thereof. Page 11 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w b e f o r e w e l o o k a t w h a t P R A S A i n te n d s to r e v ie w p le a s e g i v e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b r i e f b a c k g r o u n d o f t h e c o n tr a c ts t h a t a r e t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r o f t h e r e v i e w a p p li c a t io n ? M S N G O Y E : C h a ir t h e r e is q u i t e a n u m b e r o f c o n tr a c ts t h a t – t h a t a r e in v o lv e d in t h i s m a tt e r. I n f a c t y o u k n o w I w o u l d b e r e f e r r i n g to p h a s e 1 a n d p h a s e 1 e x te n s io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d th e n t h e r e w a s p h a s e 2 . S o e ff e c t iv e ly t h e r e i s a b o u t f o u r a n d t h e a m e n d m e n t th a t w a s a ls o in tr o d u c e d i n – i n y o u k n o w i n t h e p r o c e e d in g s th a t w e fo u n d o u t a b o u t w h e n w e w e r e g o in g t o c o u r t. S o t h e fi r s t p a r t o f t h e S i y a n g e n a w h e r e 10 S iy a n g e n a w a s in v o lv e d a s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r t h a t c o n tr a c t is n o t is d is p u te . I t i s o n l y i n r e l a ti o n t o w h e r e t h e r e w e r e e x t e n s io n s o f th a t c o n tr a c t w h i c h w e r e – d i d n o t f o l l o w p r o c e d u r e t h a t a r e in d i s p u t e . S o w e h a v e g o t in r e s p e c t o f th a t t h e e x t e n s i o n o f t h e p i l o t p h a s e w h ic h is t h e e x t e n s i o n o f w h a t w a s d o n e i n t h e ( i n d is t in c t) c u p p e r io d a n d t h e n the 2010 Soccer World Cup as well. Yo u k n o w t h e p r o c e s s th a t w a s f o ll o w e d i n a p p o in t in g S iy a n g e n a i n r e s p e c t o f th a t . A n d t h e n a l s o t h e e x t e n s i o n t o th a t c o n tr a c t a s w e ll a s w e ll a s th e fir s t – th e s e c o n d p h a s e w h i c h w e c a l l t h e s e c o n d p h a s e w h e r e a g a i n S iy a n g e n a w a s a p p o i n t e d to y o u k n o w w o r k o n o u r s ta t i o n s i n r e la t io n t o th e I S A M S 20 c o n tr a c t. A n d t h e f in a l o n e is t h e a m e n d m e n t , th e a d d e n d u m w h ic h w e – I – w e o n ly s a w fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n S i y a n g e n a to o k u s t o c o u r t. W h e n w e h a d r e q u e s t e d t h a t th e y s to p w o r k i n g o n P R A S A h a d r e q u e s t e d th a t th e y s to p w o r k in g o n o u r s i te s . a p p ly i n g fo r a n in t e r d i c t . T h e y to o k u s to c o u r t A n d t h a t is w h e n w e b e c a m e a w a r e o f th e o th e r a d d e n d u m in r e la t io n to t h e ir c o n t r a c ts . Page 12 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t t o p u t i t i n c o n te x t M s N g o y e . Th is a p p lic a ti o n i s a n a p p lic a ti o n b y P R A S A t o a s k t h e c o u r t t o r e v ie w a n d s e t a s i d e s o m e o f th e c o n t r a c t s y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d to ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y w e w i ll d e a l w i t h th o s e c o n tr a c ts b e c a u s e y o u d e a l w i t h i t i n t h e a ffi d a v i t s b u t l e t u s d e a l w i t h t h e m s y s t e m a ti c a lly o th e r w i s e i t is g o i n g t o b e a ll o v e r th e p l a c e M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s f i n e C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 O k a y in r e l a ti o n to t h e p a p e r s i n t h e S iy a n g e n a m a t t e r h a v e y o u n o w m a d e a d i ff e r e n t a ffi d a v i t fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e c o m m i s s io n ? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir I h a d t o b e c a u s e in m y f ir s t a ff id a v i t th e o n e t h a t I s i g n e d o n t h e 1 4 A p r il t h e o n e w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h y e s t e r d a y I d o m a k e r e f e r e n c e y o u k n o w t o t h e S i y a n g e n a c o m p a n ie s a n d th e li ti g a t i o n t h a t P R A S A i s i n v o lv e d i n . S o I n e e d e d to d o t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t s o t h a t I c a n d e a l f u r t h e r w i th t h e – t h e is s u e s t h a t P R A S A r a is e in t h e S iy a n g e n a a p p l ic a ti o n . S o t h is is w h y t h e r e i s t h is s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t w h i c h I h a v e m a d e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 P l e a s e lo o k a t B u n d le E a n d i f I c a n a s k y o u t o lo o k a t t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t is m a r k e d S S 7 C . CHAIRPERSON: Did you say SS7C? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s t h a t is r i g h t. CHAIRPERSON: C? A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t i s r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f B u n d le E . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 13 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : S o r r y C h a ir. I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W ill y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t is th e p u r p o s e o f t h i s a ff id a v i t? M S N G O Y E : S o r r y C h a ir a n n e x u r e t o ? CHAIRPERSON: A c t u a l ly b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t c a n I ju s t c h e c k p a r t ic u l a r ly w i t h t h e t r a n s c r i b e r s a r e y o u a b le t o h e a r Mr S o n i q u i t e w e ll ? I t h i n k s o m e t i m e s h e s ta n d s a l i t tl e t o o f a r fr o m t h e m ic r o p h o n e . T h e tr a n s c r i b e r s . I d o n o t t h i n k t h e y c a n h e a r m e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e y d o n o t e v e n s e e m t o b e ( in d i s ti n c t) . 10 CHAIRPERSON: W i ll s o m e b o d y f i n d o u t fr o m t h e m w h e th e r t h e y h e a r w h e n M r S o n i s p e a k s ? Th e t r a n s c r i b e r s a n d l e t u s k n o w. B u t tr y n o t t o s p e a k f r o m – f a r fr o m t h e … A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: J a I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is g o in g to p u t i t i n t h e c e n tr e o r n o t b u t a s l o n g a s y o u tr y t o – w h e r e v e r i t i s a s l o n g a s y o u tr y n o t to b e t o o l o u d . To o f a r fr o m i t . I s e e t h i n g s fa ll a p a r t. O k a y w h a t e v e r is c o n v e n i e n t a s l o n g a s w h e n y o u s p e a k y o u a r e n o t t o o f a r fr o m i t . I a m j u s t s c a r e d t h a t th e tr a n s c r i p t m i g h t h a v e t o o m a n y in a u d ib l e s i n th e e n d . I a m tr y i n g t o a v o id t h a t . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t – a s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t h i n k s o m e b o d y w a n t s t o t e ll y o u w h e t h e r t h e y can hear you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m t o l d t h e y c a n h e a r C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. I a m – I a m … A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t I w il l s ti ll a t te n d t o t h e c o n c e r n . Page 14 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y n o t h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : To th e c o n c e r n . Ms N g o y e c a n y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f – w e ll f ir s t ly d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t w h a t is c o n t a i n e d in t h i s a ff id a v i t is tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? M S N G O Y E : I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s a ff id a v i t? C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d ju s t t o c o n f ir m t h is i s o n e o f y o u r a ffi d a v it s ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h is i s o n e t h a t is m a d e o n t h e 1 5 M a r c h . M S N G O Y E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C h a ir t h e – t h e a p p li c a t io n p a p e r s in P R A S A’s r e v i e w a p p l ic a ti o n a r e – y o u k n o w a r e p a r t o f th e b u n d l e s t h a t h a v e b e e n p u t b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s io n . A n d th e p u r p o s e o f t h i s a ffi d a v i t is to r e fe r to s p e c i f ic s i n – i n t h e m a i n a ffi d a v i t o f S iy a n g e n a t h a t P R A S A h a s h i g h li g h te d . Yo u k n o w in r e l a ti o n t o t h e S iy a n g e n a a p p lic a ti o n s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i n t h is a ff i d a v i t y o u d e a l w i t h a n u m b e r o f is s u e s b u t y o u s ta r t o ff w it h i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 6 y o u s t a r t o ff w i t h t w o p r e l i m in a r y p o i n ts . 20 W i ll y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t t h e fi r s t p r e l i mi n a r y p o i n t is p l e a s e ? M S N G O Y E : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e v ie w a p p li c a ti o n t h a t is n o w b e f o r e t h e c o u r ts i s t h e s e c o n d r e v i e w a p p l ic a t i o n . P R A S A h a d a p p l i e d b e f o r e t o r e v ie w t h e c o n tr a c ts b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e 1 8 0 R u l e in t e r m s o f PA G A w e – we were obviously not successful in that regard and when the c o n c o u r t d e c id e d o n t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) c a s e y o u k n o w r e f e r r in g t o i s s u e s Page 15 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 o f le g a l it y P R A S A s a w i t f i t t o t h e n g o b a c k t o c o u r t to th e n is s u e t h e s e c o n d r e v i e w a p p li c a t io n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y b e f o r e y o u g o o n ju s t t o p u t t h i n g s in c o n te x t . T h e – y o u r e f e r t o t h is w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 o f y o u r f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v it I a m g o in g t o r e f e r t o y o u r a ffi d a v it i n t h e r e v i e w a p p lic a ti o n s a s th e f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t a n d th a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 4 1 o f S S 3 D w o u ld t h a t b e c o r r e c t? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w h o m a d e t h e a ffi d a v i t i n th e fi r s t a p p l ic a ti o n 10 f o r r e v i e w t h a t w e n t b e fo r e c o u r t t h a t w a s d is m i s s e d ? M S N G O Y E : D o c t o r P o p o M o le f e w a s s ti ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f P R A S A a t t h e t i m e s o h e m a d e t h a t a p p l ic a t i o n C h a ir. H e s i g n e d t h e p a p e r fo r t h e a p p lic a ti o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n w h e n y o u w e n t b a c k t o c o u r t o n th e b a s is o f th e p r e s e n t a p p l ic a ti o n w h o m a d e t h e f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t? MS NGOYE: I h a d to m a k e t h e f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t C h a ir p e r s o n i n m y c a p a c i ty a s t h e H e a d o f L e g a l a n d th a t is w h y my n a m e i s o n t h e papers. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Al r i g h t a n d th e n y o u in d i c a t e i n p a r a g r a p h 7 w h a t 20 t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n is a b o u t . W o u ld y o u e x p l a in t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ? M S N G O Y E : T h e a p p l ic a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n i s t o r e v i e w a n d s e t a s i d e t h e c o n tr a c ts th a t h a d b e e n … A D V VA S S O N I S C : To h a v e r e v ie w e d a n d s e t a s i d e ? MS NGOYE: Have reviewed and set aside. We are learning as we go along C h a ir. Those c o n tr a c ts of Siyangena Page 16 of 211 th a t I h i g h li g h te d 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C h a ir p e r s o n b e f o r e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d j u s t in b r i e f w h a t w e r e th e b a s is o n w h i c h PRASA had brought that up – as in just in brief? M S N G O Y E : S u r e . C h a ir t h e r e w a s – t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t a r e r e q u ir e d t o b e fo ll o w e d i n y o u k n o w a p p o in t in g s u p p li e r s i n r e la t io n t o t h e s e c o n tr a c ts w e r e n o t f o l lo w e d . S o e ff e c ti v e l y y o u k n o w t h e r e w a s n o a u t h o r i ty t o e n t e r in t o th e s e c o n tr a c ts a n d w e d i d n o t c o m p ly w it h t h e S e c t io n 2 1 7 o f T h e C o n s ti t u ti o n i n t e r m s h o w m a t t e r s o f y o u k n o w P r o c u r e m e n t n e e d t o b e d e a l t w i t h . O u r o w n S u p p ly C h a i n p r o c e s s e s 10 w e r e fl o u te d i n r e l a ti o n t o h o w th e s e c o n tr a c ts w e r e e n t e r e d i n to . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d a n y le g is l a ti o n ? M S N G O Y E : Th e r e is t h e P P P FA a s w e ll w h ic h o b v i o u s ly w a s a ls o n o t c o m p li e d w it h . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u m a k e a n o t h e r p o i n t a b o u t c e r ta in d e a li n g s b e t w e e n p e o p l e a n d P R A S A a n d a t to r n e y s f o r S iy a n g e n a . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : What – are you going to come back to those d e a li n g s ? M S N G O Y E : I w i ll c o m e b a c k t o t h o s e – t o th o s e C h a ir. 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr ig h t . N o w y o u t h e n s e t o u t h o w t h e s e c o n tr a c ts c a m e i n to b e in g a n d y o u d o t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 9 . W il l y o u s e t th a t o u t a s s i m p l y a s p o s s ib l e f o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n M s N g o y e ? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir p e r s o n i n 2 0 0 9 y o u k n o w d u r i n g t h e C o n f e d e r a ti o n s C u p P r o c e s s P R A S A i n f a c t a p p o i n te d t w o c o n s tr u c t io n c o m p a n i e s E n z a a n d R a i n b o w C o n s tr u c t io n to a s s i s t i n t h e d e v e lo p m e n t Page 17 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 o f t w o s t a ti o n s . T h i s w a s t h e N a z a r e c s t a ti o n a s w e ll a s t h e D o o r n f o n t e i n s t a ti o n . A n d in t h a t p r o c e s s t h is w a s h a n d l e d b y In t e r s i te . Yo u w il l r e c a ll C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d t h a t I n te r s i t e w a s a s u b s i d i a r y o f PRASA. A t t h e t i m e I n t e r s i t e w a s I n t e r s i te P r o p e r ty M a n a g e m e n t S e r v ic e s o f P R A S A a n d it r a n w i th t h a t p r o c e s s o f a p p o in t in g th o s e s u p p li e r s . A n d t h o s e s u p p l i e r s a p p o i n t e d S i y a n g e n a a s t h e ir s u b - c o n tr a c to r. S o a s f a r a s w e a r e c o n c e r n e d t h e r e is n o i s s u e w i th th a t c o n tr a c t. I t h i n k i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t o h i g h l i g h t i t s o t h a t y o u k n o w th e r e is c o n t e x t a s h o w S iy a n g e n a th e n is i n v o lv e d i n r e l a t i o n to t h e o t h e r 10 m a t t e r s . T h e s e c o n d is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t is b e i n g c h a ll e n g e d i s t h a t i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h a t ( i n d is t in c t) p r o c e s s P R A S A a g a i n y o u k n o w g a v e a b o u t s e v e n o f o u r s t a ti o n s t o b e d e v e lo p e d t o S iy a n g e n a w i t h o u t f o ll o w i n g p r o c e s s . Th is is – th is is o n e w h ic h w e c a l l th e P il o t P h a s e . E ff e c t iv e ly t h e e x t e n s i o n o f th e P i lo t P h a s e . So you – what we are a c t u a ll y s a y in g C h a ir is t h a t i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t p a r tic u la r c o n t r a c t n o p r o c e s s w a s f o l lo w e d . I n fa c t t h is i s o n e o f t h o s e m a tt e r s th a t w a s d e a lt w i t h b y t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r w h o a ls o fo u n d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o p r o c e s s e s f o ll o w e d p r o c u r e m e n t - w is e S C M w a s fl o u t e d a n d s o o n . S o y o u k n o w th a t i s t h e o t h e r c o n tr a c t th a t w e w is h to r e v i e w. 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : M s N g o y e s o r r y t o t r o u b le y o u . Yo u m e n ti o n e d a P il o t Pr o j e c t a n d m e n t io n e d t h e e x t e n s i o n a r e t h e t w o t h e s a m e ? In o th e r w o r d s t h e N a z a r e c a n d D o o r n f o n te in c o n tr a c t is t h a t t h e Pi l o t c o n tr a c t a n d t h e n t h e s e v e n i s t h e e x t e n s i o n o f t h a t Pi l o t C o n tr a c t . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y a n d n o w t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 Page 18 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y ( in a u d i b l e ) . M S N G O Y E : A n d C h a i r t h e o t h e r c o n tr a c t th a t w e w a n t e d t o r e v i e w is w h a t I r e f e r t o a s t h e P h a s e 1 o f t h e t e n d e r t h a t S iy a n g e n a w a s a p p o i n t e d f o r. A n d i n … A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y b e f o r e y o u g e t t o P h a s e 1 i f y o u fo ll o w e d y o u r a ffi d a v i t M s N g o y e i t is g o i n g t o h e l p b e c a u s e y o u r a ffi d a v it I a m t a lk in g a b o u t y o u r S S 7 C . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t s a y if y o u n e e d a s s is ta n c e . M S N G O Y E : I n e e d a s s is t a n c e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e b o d y c a n a s s is t y o u . M S N G O Y E : I t h i n k – I a m n o t s u r e if I h a v e g o t th e s e fi le s p r o p e r l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t s o m e b o d y w i ll c o m e th e r e . MS NGOYE: SS7. W i l l y o u h e lp m e ? May I ask Counsel are you r e fe r r i n g t o th e a ffi d a v i t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : To t h e a ff i d a v i t … M S N G O Y E : T h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Ye s . 20 MS NGOYE: O k a y. N o t c o n f u s e m y s e l f b e c a u s e r e f e r r in g t o th e a p p lic a ti o n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I s a id I w ill r e f e r t o t h a t a s t h e f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t a n d I w il l r e f e r t o th e o n e y o u a r e n o w l o o k in g a t a s t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y one. Page 19 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: O k a y, s o w e d e a l w i t h t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y o n e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: Ye s . I am with you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 9 in p a r a g r a p h 9 y o u r a is e a n u m b e r o f m a t te r s i n r e g a r d to t h e e x t e n s i o n o f th e c o n tr a c t, . . . [i n d is t in c t ] p o i n ti n g o u t t h e ir r e g u l a r i t ie s ? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir, t h e e x te n s i o n s I t h o u g h t I s a i d th a t t h e e x t e n s i o n s w e r e o b v io u s ly n o t – d i d n o t f o l lo w p r o c e s s i n t e r m s o f y o u k n o w w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e w h e n p r o c u r e m e n t o f s e r v ic e s is r e q u ir e d , 10 s o th e y w e r e ir r e g u l a r i n d e e d a n d t h i s w a s w h a t w a s f o u n d . CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y, I a m s o r r y, I m a y b e t h e o n e w h o is lo s t n o w, I a m lo o k in g a t p a r a g r a p h 9 i n – a t p a g e 3 8 8 , is t h a t w h e r e w e a l l are? A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s th a t is w h e r e w e a r e . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ms N g o y e i n t h a t r i g h t i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s a y s e c o n d , y o u m a k e a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t t h e r e , w h a t is t h a t p o in t ? MS NGOYE: 20 In paragraph 9. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: not been th e Paragraph 10 O k a y. F ir s t i t is n o t p r o c u r e m e n t , s e c o n d Si y a n g e n a h a d o r i g in a l c o n tr a c t o r b u t o n ly a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r, t h e e x t e n s i o n h a s n o l e g a l b a s is b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o p r iv i t y o f c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n S e n g e n a a n d / o r In t e r s i te o r P R A S A s o e ff e c t iv e l y C h a ir i n th e C O N F E D C u p S e n g e n a i s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r a n d t h e n t h e e x t e n s io n t o Page 20 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h a t p il o t S iy a n g e n a i s a p p o i n t e d e v e n t h o u g h t h e y w e r e s u b - c o n tr a c te d t o t h e f ir s t , s o th e y w e r e n o t e v e n a p a r ty to t h o s e c o n tr a c ts t h a t w e r e entered into with PRASA in relation to the CONFED Cup stations. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e c o n tr a c t w a s w i th o n e e n t i ty a n d S e n g e n a w a s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r to t h a t e n t i ty. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n i t c a m e to t h e e x t e n s i o n i n s t e a d o f d o i n g a n e x te n s io n w it h t h e e n t i ty w i t h w h o m – w i t h w h ic h P R A S A h a d a c o n tr a c t i t d id a n e x t e n s io n w i t h t h e s u b - c o n tr a c t o r ? 10 MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: S o m e th i n g t h a t ’s d i ff ic u l t to f o l lo w. I t d o e s n ’ t h a p p e n lik e t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Okay B u t y o u m a k e a n o th e r p o i n t in t h a t p a r a g r a p h a n d y o u s a y w h a t i m p li e d h e r e t h e C O N F E D Pi l o t C o n tr a c t w a s a c o n tr a c t b e tw e e n I n te r s i t e a n d E n z o a n d R a i n b o w a m I r i g h t ? MS NGOYE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : And in regard to the extent here who was – who w e r e n o w t h e c o n tr a c ti n g p a r ti e s . 20 MS NGOYE: In r e la t io n to t h e e x t e n s i o n C h a i r p e r s o n P R A S A w a s t h e c o n tr a c ti n g p a r ty. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: B u t w o u l d th a t b e p r o p e r a n d la w f u l ? W e l l C h a ir t h e s e s ta t io n s b e l o n g t o P R A S A a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y y o u k n o w s o e ff e c ti v e ly P R A S A w o u l d b e c o n tr a c ti n g p a r ty. I g u e s s w h e n i t w e n t t o I n t e r s it e , I n t e r s i t e w a s th e p r o p e r ty m a n a g e m e n t Page 21 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 p o r t f o l i o o f P R A S A , t h e r e a g a i n y o u k n o w t h e r a ti o n a le o f t a k i n g t h e s e c o n tr a c ts t h r o u g h t o I n te r s i t e w a s a l s o s o m e th i n g th a t w a s a n is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 11 y o u p o i n t o u t t h a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r h a d d e a l t w it h t h is m a t t e r i n h e r r e p o r t , c a n y o u t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th a t w a s ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r s o n th e P u b li c P r o te c t o r d e a l t w i t h t h i s in th e D e r a il e d R e p o r t , th e r e ’s tw o D e r a il e d R e p o r ts , s o th e fir s t d e r a il e d r e p o r t t h a t I g u e s s M r M a l e f a w a s r e f e r r in g t o , t h a t ’s t h e o n e I a m 10 r e fe r r i n g t o , s o t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r h a d – y o u k n o w w a s f o r w a r d e d in f o r m a ti o n d e a l in g w i t h t h is p a r t ic u l a r c o n tr a c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s a n d s h e s a y s th a t c o n tr a c t w a s w o r t h R 1 . 9 5 b il li o n . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o e ff e c t iv e l y w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a ir w i th t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r P R A S A g a v e t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r i n f o r m a ti o n n o t in r e s p e c t o f t h e s t a ti o n s t h a t w e r e e x p e n d e d s o – a n d th a t is w h y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r t h e n r e f e r s to a n a m o u n t o f R 1 . 9 b i ll io n . Th a t a m o u n t in f a c t w a s a n a m o u n t in r e l a ti o n t o a c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d i n th e P h a s e 1 o f 20 t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t w e c o n c lu d e d w i th P R A S A s o t h e r e w a s t h a t y o u k n o w m i s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e t o t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r b y P R A S A a n d t h a t i s w h y s h e m a k e s th a t f i n d i n g , b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t w h a t t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r w a s g i v e n to d e a l w i t h is t h e e x t e n s io n w h ic h s h e f o u n d t o b e ir r e g u l a r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t t o p u t i t i n c o n t e x t , t h e p i lo t is e x te n d e d , Page 22 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h a t i s t h e m a tt e r t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r in v e s t i g a t e d ? MS NGOYE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u s a y t h a t t h e a m o u n t o f t h a t e x t e n s io n w a s n o t R 1 . 9 5 b ill i o n ? MS NGOYE: N o i t w a s n o t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t t h e r e i s a n o t h e r c o n tr a c t w h e r e th e a m o u n t is R 1 . 9 5 b i ll i o n ? MS NGOYE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h a t’s r i g h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 MS NGOYE: Yo u a r e g o i n g to c o m e t o t h a t ? I w i ll c o m e to t h a t o n e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l te ll m e w h a t is t h e c o r r e c t n u m b e r o r th e a m o u n t f o r t h e o n e w h e r e y o u s a y it is n o t t h e c o r r e c t a m o u n t ? MS NGOYE: I a m n o t a c t u a l ly s u r e w h a t t h e n u m b e r is , w e c o u l d n e v e r p ic k u p w h a t t h e n u m b e r i s o f t h e s e v e n , i t r a n g e s b e t w e e n 8 0 0 m i lli o n C h a i r a n d s o o n . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , it is l e s s t h a n t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] I t is l e s s th a n , i t d e fi n it e l y is b e c a u s e t h i s i n c r e a s e I m e a n e x t e n s i o n r e l a te d to s e v e n s t a t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 MS NGOYE: Ye s . S o t h e o t h e r o n e o f o n e b il li o n is m o r e s t a t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t b e c a u s e M s N g o y e h a s m e n ti o n e d 8 0 0 m il li o n y o u w il l r e m e m b e r th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r i n h e r r e p o r t s a y s t h e c o m p l a i n t w a s it w a s 8 0 0 – t h e e x t e n s i o n w a s 8 0 0 m i lli o n b u t s h e s a y s i n e ffe c t i t w a s R 1 , 9 5 b i ll i o n s o i f s h e h a d b e e n Page 23 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 g iv e n t h e c o r r e c t i n fo r m a t i o n y o u w o u ld h a v e c o m e to th e c o r r e c t c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h e a m o u n t o f t h a t e x t e n s i o n w a s R 8 0 0 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y, o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr i g h t , th e n y o u ’r e s a y in g th a t i n f a c t th a t r e f e r s t o t h e P h a s e o n e , n o w in r e g a r d t o t h e e x t e n s i o n in p a r a g r a p h 1 2 y o u d e a l w i th t h e p r o b l e m s th a t y o u th in k .. . [i n d is t in c t] t h e a w a r d o f t h e extension. MS NGOYE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 MS NGOYE: C o u ld y o u te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t t h o s e a r e ? C h a i r p e r s o n i n t h is p a r a g r a p h I h i g h li g h t in r e s p e c t o f t h e S e n g e n a p r o p o s a l h o w M r G a n ts h u , I h a v e r e f e r r e d t o M r G a n ts h u b e f o r e , h a d in d ic a t e d y o u k n o w t o M r M o n t a n a t h a t y o u k n o w S e n g e n a ’s p r i c e w a s t o o e x c e s s iv e i t d id n ’t c o m p ly r e a l ly w i th t h e s p e c if ic a ti o n s t h a t w e r e q u ir e d y o u n o w f o r t h e g a t e s t h a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g f o r a n d a ls o th e g a te s t h a t S e n g e n a w a s g o i n g to p r o v i d e to P R A S A w e r e n o t s u i t a b l e , a n d h e r a is e s t h e s e i s s u e s i n a n y e v e n t i n r e la t io n t o t h a t extension. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C a n I a s k y o u t o p le a s e l o o k a t t h e f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t a t p a g e 3 8 9 , th is i s S A 7 B . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t a d i ff e r e n t a ffi d a v i t fr o m t h e o n e w e h a v e been looking at? A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n I a m l o o k in g a t t h e f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t a n d th e r e v ie w a p p lic a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, t h a t is in a n o t h e r b u n d l e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t ’s i n B u n d l e B , s o r r y B u n d l e E . Page 24 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: E? A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: B fo r B e a tr ix , B u n d le D o r B u n d le B A , j a o k a y. What page counsel? A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: ( I n a u d i b l e – m ic r o p h o n e o ff) 167. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, 1 2 6 , p a g e 1 2 6 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o r r y, s o r r y, B u n d l e B C h a ir. 1 6 7 , o h b u t t h a t’s t h e o n e s ta r t i n g a t 1 2 6 I g u e s s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: 1 6 7 C h a ir. T h a t’s r i g h t . 167. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n i f I c o u ld e x p la in i f it is g o i n g t o b e c o n fu s i n g t h e n I n e e d n ’ t d o i t, I a m j u s t c o n d u c t in g t h is e x e r c is e s o t h a t y o u c a n n a v i g a te y o u r s e l f b e tw e e n th e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t w h e n y o u a r e c o n s i d e r i n g t h e w h o l e m a t te r, s o I a m ju s t tr y i n g – b u t i f i t is g o in g to b e c o n f u s i n g w e c a n ju s t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o , n o i t is n o t c o n fu s i n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . 6 . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 167? H a v e y o u g o t it ? N o , I d o n ’t h a v e i t , I t h i n k I a m n o t l o o k i n g a t t h e r ig h t document. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Okay page 167. D id y o u s a y S S 7 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : No, SS3. Have you got that Ms Ngoye? Page 25 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: I do. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w i ll y o u r e f e r th e C h a ir p e r s o n t o t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s , o r t o th o s e s u b - p a r a g r a p h s i n w h ic h M r G a n ts h u e x p r e s s e s concerns about the extension? MS NGOYE: I t ’s p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . 6 C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: A n d w h a t d o e s h e s a y th e r e ? H e s e n t a n e m a il t o Mr M o n ta n a a n d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h 3 h e s a y s a f t e r in t e r r o g a t in g t h e o p e r a ti o n m e t h o d s a n d c o m p a r in g w it h o th e r in s ta ll g a te s e ls e w h e r e in t h e w o r l d it t u r n s o u t t h a t t h e s e g a t e s 10 w e r e n o t s u i ta b l e . H e g o e s o n in p a r a g r a p h h e s a id i n o u r e ffo r t s t o c e n t r a li s e t h is p r o c u r e m e n t w e a p p r o a c h e d E S S . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: A n d w h o is E S S ? E S S i s a g r o u p o f c o m p a n i e s – is p a r t o f a g r o u p o f c o m p a n i e s t h a t b e lo n g t o T M M H o ld i n g s . N o w T M M H o ld in g s w a s th e m a in c o m p a n y a n d S iy a n g e n a a n d E S S w e r e s u b s id i a r i e s t o t h a t c o m p a n y. I t s a y s to p r o v id e P R A S A w i th a q u o t a t i o n t o s u p p ly a ll t h e 2 0 1 0 s t a t i o n s . I t tu r n e d o u t t h a t t h e ir g a te s a r e fu lly i m p o r te d a n d v e r y e x p e n s iv e . S o h e s a y s t h a t in t h a t l e t t e r a n d th e n t h e t h i r d is s u e t h a t 20 h e r a is e s is t h a t i n a n u n n u m b e r e d p a r a g r a p h o f t h a t l e t t e r w e r e fe r r e d t o h e s a y s t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t b u d g e t e d f o r in t h e o r i g in a l s c o p e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr i g h t , t h e r e a f t e r y o u p o in t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 t h a t th e r e w a s a c h a n g e i n h e a r t , w h a t – h o w d i d t h a t c o m e a b o u t. CHAIRPERSON: N o w t h a t’s p a r a g r a p h o f ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y, o f t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 26 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O k a y. W e l l i n t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y C h a ir I s t a t e t h a t f o l lo w in g t h a t te l e p h o n e c a l l w h i c h – w i th M r M o n t a n a t h a t M r G u n ts h a m a d e y o u know he requested Mr Montana to approve the extension, so even t h o u g h y o u k n o w t h o s e i s s u e s w e r e t h e r e h e s ti ll m a d e t h e r e q u e s t f o r the extension to be approved. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I f I c o u l d j u s t s t o p y o u th e r e , t h a t c h a n g e o f h e a r t c a m e a b o u t a s a r e s u lt o f w h a t? O f th a t te l e p h o n e c a l l w a s i t not? 10 MS NGOYE: Ye s o f c o u r s e , y e s it w a s t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll t h a t h e h a d h a d w i t h Mr M o n ta n a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: A n d b a s e d o n t h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] Well I am sorry why do you say it was a result of the t e l e p h o n e c a ll ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e b e fo r e y o u k n o w th e l e t t e r t h a t h e w r i t e s h e h i g h li g h t s a ll t h e s e i s s u e s a n d y o u k n o w a f t e r m a k i n g t h e c a l l t o M r M o n ta n a y o u k n o w b a s e d o n w h a t h e s a i d t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e o f heart. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , b u t w h a t I a m a s k i n g i s w h e t h e r a r e y o u b a s i n g t h a t o n w h a t s o m e b o d y s a i d o r . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] MS NGOYE: It is j u s t p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w e w e r e a b l e t o g e t C h a ir p e r s o n i n r e l a ti o n t o th e m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O h fr o m t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] F r o m t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y o u w il l ta lk to . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] Page 27 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Ye s , Mr G a n ts h o y e s w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o th e p a p e r s C h a ir t h a t te l e p h o n e d is c u s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I k n o w w h a t th e b a s i s is for saying that. MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r h a p s I m u s t a ls o s t a t e t h a t b e c a u s e t h i s m a t te r is b e f o r e C o u r t , o b v i o u s l y w e ’r e j u s t b r i n g in g i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n j u s t t o h ig h li g h t t h e ir r e g u l a r i ti e s t h a t a r e t h e r e a n d th is w a s th e s u b j e c t o f the f o r e n s ic in v e s ti g a t io n th a t w a s c o n d u c t e d , s o a lot of the in f o r m a ti o n th a t is a v a i l a b l e t o P R A S A i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s e m a t t e r s w a s 10 o b t a i n e d t h r o u g h th e fo r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t h a t ’s f in e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s q u e s ti o n a b o u t w h y d o y o u s a y th e r e is a t e le p h o n e c a l l c a n I a s k y o u t o l o o k a t p a g e 1 6 8 n o w o f y o u r fo u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t , p a r a g r a p h 1 7 .7 1 . MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t p a r a g r a p h r e a d s t h a t M r G a n t s h o r e fe r s t o a te le p h o n e d is c u s s i o n w i t h M r M o n t a n a d u r i n g w h ic h M r M o n ta n a a d v is e d h i m t h a t th e c o n tr a c t w i t h S iy a n g e n a f o r t h e e x t e n s i o n o n t h e b a s is th a t S iy a n g e n a w a s c o n tr a c t e d a n d in s ta ll in g s i m il a r s y s te m s a t N A S R E C a n d D o o r n fo n t e i n , s t a ti o n s u n d e r t h e I n t e r s i t e 20 c o n tr a c t. S o th is is i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e a b le t o p ie c e t o g e th e r s o i n h is e m a il I g u e s s h e s p e a k s t o i t . CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y, th a n k y o u Mr S o n i ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o M r G a n ts h a n o w i s in f a v o u r o f th e e x te n s io n a s a r e s u l t o f t h is t e l e p h o n e c a ll , o r a c c o r d i n g t o h i m a s a r e s u l t o f t h is Page 28 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t e l e p h o n e c a ll , a c c o r d in g t o h i m a s a r e s u l t o f th is t e l e p h o n e c a l l w i t h M r M o n t a n a , w h a t h a p p e n s n e x t , y o u s e t th a t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 . MS NGOYE: W e l l t h r e e d a y s l a te r C h a ir p e r s o n y o u k n o w Mr M o n ta n a a p p r o v e s t h e r e q u e s t , b u t h e a p p r o v e s i t s u b j e c t t o y o u k n o w th e m a t t e r b e i n g r e f e r r e d t o f i n a n c e fo r b u d g e ta r y p u r p o s e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i n r e s p e c t o f f in a n c e ’s a t ti t u d e w h a t w a s , w h a t d i d y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s r e v e a l ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r s o n th e s e m a tt e r s w e r e n o t b u d g e t e d fo r, i n f a c t o n e o f t h e e x e c u tiv e s th a t w a s r e s p o n s ib le fo r th e s tr a t e g i c a s s e t 10 d e v e l o p m e n t s id e o f – w i t h i n P R A S A – r a is e d a n u m b e r o f q u e s ti o n s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: W h o w a s t h a t e x e c u ti v e ? I t w a s M r P ie t S i b o l a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h e r e d o y o u h ig h l i g h t t h a t i n y o u r fo u n d in g a ffi d a v i t ? MS NGOYE: I n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 , 1 6 C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Paragraph 17? 16. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A t p a g e 1 7 4 C h a ir p e r s o n . 1 6 , a t p a g e 1 7 4 , l e t’s c o m p le t e th e r e f e r e n c e M r S o n i f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e tr a n s c r i p t i o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : O h s o r r y, y e s i t i s S S 3 D p a g e 1 7 4 p a r a g r a p h 17.16. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I C S C : A n d w e n e e d n ’ t g o in t o a l l o f t h e m w i t h y o u , ju s t s u m m a r i s e w h a t t h e m a in o n e s w e r e p l e a s e Ms N g o y e . Page 29 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: C h a i r p e r s o n M r S ib o la r a i s e d i s s u e s a r o u n d y o u k n o w n o n - c o m p li a n c e f o r in s ta n c e w it h t h e C ID B p r o c e s s a n d t h a t S i y a n g e n a d i d n o t c o m p ly w i th i t , y o u k n o w r a i s e d th e is s u e s a r o u n d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d r a is e d t h e i s s u e s o f t h e r e n o t b e in g b u d g e t , in r e l a ti o n to th is m a t te r a n d a ls o y o u k n o w th e f a c t th a t t h i s ty p e o f c o n tr a c t w o u l d b e a B B B c o n tr a c t w h ic h w o u ld w a r r a n t P R A S A t o c o m p ly w i t h l e g is la t io n r e a l ly i n r e l a ti o n t o e n t e r i n g i n th e s e ty p e s o f c o n tr a c t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 I n f a c t i n r e g a r d t o t h e C ID B n o n - c o m p l ia n c e h e g o e s f u r t h e r, h e s a y s Si y a n g e n a w a s n o t c e r ti fi e d . MS NGOYE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t h e s e w e r e t h e c o n c e r n s th a t M r S i b o l a r a i s e d , w h a t – h o w w e r e th e s e c o n c e r n s a d d r e s s e d i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o f y o u r s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t y o u d e a l w it h i t t h e r e . MS NGOYE: C h a ir t h e c o n c e r n s w e r e r a i s e d a t H e a d O ff ic e , a t P R A S A , b u t h o w e v e r b e c a u s e t h e s e w e r e n o t fi n a li s e d a t P R A S A i t w a s t h e n d e c id e d t o r e fe r th e m a tt e r t o I n t e r s i te w h ic h i s a s u b s id i a r y o f P R A S A s o t h a t d e c i s i o n m a k in g p r o c e s s w a s t h e n r e m o v e d fr o m P R A S A it s e l f a n d g iv e n t o I n t e r s it e fo r I n t e r s it e to c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e p r o c e s s . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: W h y d o y o u th i n k th a t h a p p e n e d ? W e ll C h a ir I m e a n c l e a r ly t h e r e w a s n o s u p p o r t y o u k n o w o f t h is p a r tic u la r c o n tr a c t y o u k n o w a t P R A S A a n d I g u e s s i n m y o b s e r v a t i o n r e a ll y w h e n o n e l o o k s a t th is is a r o u n d t h e f a c t t h a t y o u k n o w b e c a u s e p r o c e s s e s w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e f o ll o w e d s o m e b o d y e l s e m u s t d e a l w i th i t , s o i t w a s tr y i n g t o m o v e a w a y f r o m r e a l ly h a v in g t o Page 30 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s t h a t w e r e r a i s e d b y p e o p le a t P R A S A a n d g i v i n g i n t o I n t e r s it e b e c a u s e t h e in s tr u c ti o n t o In t e r s i te c o u l d t h e n b e c o m i n g fr o m H e a d O ffi c e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u w il l r e c a ll y e s t e r d a y w h e n y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e i n r e g a r d t o th e S tr a w b e r r y W o r x m a t t e r. MS NGOYE: Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u r e m e m b e r th e r e w a s a d is p u te a b o u t w h e r e t h e c o n t r a c t s h o u l d r e s t a n d th e y h a d , y o u w e r e t h e n t h e C E O o f I n t e r s i t e a n d y o u s a id t h a t th e y t h r e a t e n e d t h a t t h e y w e r e g o in g t o t a k e 10 t h e m a t t e r fr o m I n t e r s i te t o P R A S A ? MS NGOYE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : d ir e c t io n ? A n d t h e y d i d t h a t? Is t h is a s i m i la r m a n o e u v r e i n t h e o p p o s i te I a m j u s t a s k i n g if t h a t is th e a n a l o g y t h a t o n e c a n d r a w ? MS NGOYE: I t h i n k i t is C h a ir, y o u k n o w i f it d o e s n ’ t w o r k h e r e m o v e it th e r e , a n d a ll o w t h o s e o n e s t o c o n t in u e w i t h i t, b e c a u s e I th in k f o r m e a ls o w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d is t h a t y o u k n o w I n t e r s i t e b e in g a s u b s id i a r y a n d y o u w i ll r e c a l l I d i d i n d ic a te th a t Mr M o n ta n a w a s th e C h a i r p e r s o n 20 a t I n te r s i t e , y o u k n o w a n d t h e f a c t th a t c h a l le n g i n g M r M o n ta n a w a s r e a l ly a n is s u e a t P R A S A , y o u k n o w s o m o v i n g th o s e th i n g s a c r o s s to I n t e r s i t e , t h e i n s tr u c ti o n a c r o s s to I n te r s i t e w o u l d h a v e t h e n y o u k n o w m e a n t t h a t h e h a s a l s o y o u k n o w . . . [i n d is ti n c t ] o v e r t h e m t o d e a l w i t h t h e c o n tr a c t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t i s t h e n e x t d e v e l o p m e n t t h e r e a f t e r, n o w t h a t Page 31 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h e m a t t e r is m o v e d t o I n te r s i t e ? MS NGOYE: W e l l w e ’ v e g o t a M r J a b u la n i S e n d a n i w h o w o r k e d a t Intersite, so he then made the submission you know for these c o n tr a c ts , f o r th is p r o c e s s t o b e c o n c l u d e d a t I n t e r s it e b u t w e h a d a n – a n d h a d r e q u e s t e d a Mr K u l u N x u b a to a p p r o v e t h e s e c o n tr a c ts , t h e s u b m is s io n o f t h e s e c o n tr a c ts f o r o n s t a te m e n t t o th e G r o u p C E O . W h e n M r N x u b a r e f u s e d t o d o th a t , h e r e fu s e d o n th e b a s is t h a t th e a m o u n t i n v o l v e d w a s e v e n a b o u t y o u k n o w t h e C E O o f I n t e r s i t e a n d h e n e e d e d p e r m is s i o n fr o m t h e B o a r d o f I n te r s i t e . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: A n d w a s s u c h p e r m is s io n g r a n t e d ? N o C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o – w e c o u l d n ’ t f in d a n y t h i n g th a t s h o w e d t h a t y o u k n o w th e B o a r d e v e n g r a n t e d p e r m is s io n f o r t h e s e c o n tr a c ts to b e c o n c l u d e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s f a r a s y o u – t h e i n fo r m a t i o n a t y o u r d is p o s a l i s there was no Board approval for that? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: But what nevertheless happened? W e l l t h e c o n t r a c t s w e r e e n t e r e d i n to , S e n g e n a w a s th e n y o u k n o w “ g i v e n th e te n d e r ” a n d t h e y p r o c e e d e d w it h th e s t a ti o n s . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t – I m e a n o f y o u r f o u n d in g a ff id a v i t , t h a t ’s i n t h e r e v i e w a p p li c a t io n y o u fr e q u e n t ly m a k e r e fe r e n c e to t h e r o le p l a y e d b y Mr G a n t s h o , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h y is th a t , w h y d o y o u r e f e r t o t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f y o u r f o u n d in g a ff i d a v i t ? Page 32 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: C h a i r M r G a n ts h o w a s t h e o n e th a t w a s r e a l ly c h a m p i o n i n g y o u k n o w t h i s m a t te r, s o h e w a s t h e o n e t h a t y o u k n o w w a s m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h is – a s y o u r e c a l l h e s p o k e t o M r M o n ta n a a n d c o n v i n c e d Mr M o n t a n a to a l l o w P R A S A t o e n t e r i n t o t h e s e a g r e e m e n t s , s o o n e c o u l d s a fe ly s a y th a t b e c a u s e h e c h a m p i o n e d t h i s p r o c e s s a n d t h a t ’s w h y t h e r e ’s a lo t o f r e f e r e n c e t o h i m i n th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d o f c o u r s e y o u r e fe r la t e r i n y o u r a ff id a v i t t o M r G a n ts h o a g a i n . MS NGOYE: 10 Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: T h e n t h a t w a s th e e x t e n s i o n o f t h e p il o t p h a s e . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t’s o n e s e t o f c o n tr a c t s , t h e p i lo t p h a s e a n d t h e n th e e x te n s i o n . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t is t h e n e x t c o n tr a c t t h a t is c o n c l u d e d i n r e l a ti o n o r b e tw e e n P R A S A a n d S iy a n g e n a . MS NGOYE: Th is i s w h a t w e c a l l p h a s e o n e o f t h e p r o je c ts C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 20 A n d w h a t d id t h a t e n t a i l? I t a ls o t u r n e d t o b e a o n c e a g a i n a c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s g iv e n to S iy a n g e n a i n r e la t io n to 6 9 s ta t io n s o f P R A S A . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o o r i g in a lly t h e r e w e r e s e v e n , D o r i n g f o n te i n p lu s fi v e a n d t h e n y o u s a y 6 9 w o u l d t h e n t h a t b e a n e x t e n s i o n t o 6 2 s t a ti o n s ? MS NGOYE: W e ll n o C h a ir, r e m e m b e r th e – y e s , y e s y o u a r e c o r r e c t, y o u a r e c o r r e c t , s o it ’s t h e n i n e t h a t h a p p e n e d , b e c a u s e th e tw o w a s Page 33 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 N a s r e c a n d D o r in g f o n t e i n a n d th e n t h e s e v e n w a s t h e o n e t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e e x te n s i o n o f t h e p il o t p h a s e a n d t h i s o n e w a s p h a s e o n e , i t w a s a n e x t e n s i o n o f y e s t h o s e t w o , s o t h e 6 9 in c l u d e d t h a t s e v e n t h a t w a s r e fe r r e d t o a b o v e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C a n I ju s t a g a in s t a r t o ff w i th y o u h a v e t h e p i l o t p h a s e o r tw o , D o r in g f o n t e i n a n d N a s r e c . MS NGOYE: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 10 S iy a n g e n a is n o t a p a r ty to t h o s e c o n tr a c ts . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n i t ’s e x t e n d e d t o s e v e n , S iy a n g e n a is a p a r ty to that. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t th e n is n o w e x t e n d e d t o 6 9 , o r t o a f u r t h e r 62. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o th e s e f u r t h e r e x t e n s i o n s o r i g in a t e fr o m t h e c o n tr a c t w h i c h S iy a n g e n a w a s n o t a p a r ty. MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir i f y o u l o o k a t i t , s o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: 20 B u t S iy a n g e n a e n d s u p b e i n g t h e d ir e c t b e n e f ic ia r y of extensions. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: J a , a n d t o m a n y t r a in s t a ti o n s . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e e n ti t y t h a t h a d o r i g in a l ly e n t e r e d i n to th e f ir s t c o n tr a c ts a lo n g t h e s e e x te n s io n s , w a s i t Page 34 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 p u s h e d a s i d e , w a s i t s t il l g o i n g a lo n g , w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g ? MS NGOYE: W e l l . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d R a i n b o w C h a ir w e r e t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t a p p o i n te d S i y a n g e n a s o t h e y b a s ic a l ly f e l l o ff t h e r a d a r, o n e S iy a n g e n a y o u k n o w w a s t h e n i n t r o d u c e d in t o th e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: S o t h e s u b - c o n tr a c t o r to o k o v e r ? Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: ( l a u g h i n g ) j a , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: 10 Tw o b e c o m e s 6 9 . J a , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: N o w . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] B u t t h e o r i g i n a l e n t i t y f e l l o ff c o m p l e t e ly, d id n ’ t p r o v i d e , a s fa r a s y o u k n o w e v e n a n y c a p a c i ty t h a t S iy a n g e n a m ig h t n o t h a v e h a d t o d e a l w i t h s o m a n y tr a in s t a ti o n s . MS NGOYE: N o i t w a s n o t i n v o lv e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: It was not involved. S o t h o s e t w o c o m p a n ie s w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d a t a l l, o n c e S iy a n g e n a c a m e t o t h e f o r e Si y a n g e n a b e c a m e th e m a i n p l a y e r w i th PRASA. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w h o w d id it c o m e a b o u t t h a t P h a s e o n e w a s i m p l e m e n te d , y o u d e a l w i th t h a t in p a r a g r a p h 2 0 ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir in r e la t io n t o P h a s e o n e t h e C P O a t t h e ti m e , t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r a t t h e ti m e w a s a g e n tl e m a n b y t h e n a m e o f M r C h r is N b a ta , h e t h e n g a v e i n s tr u c t io n s t o a s e n i o r m a n a g e r in t h e procurement space, Ms Mathiso Moshode to have that meeting with Page 35 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 e i g h t c o m p a n i e s t h a t h a d b e e n id e n ti fi e d t o p a r tic i p a t e i n th is n e x t p h a s e o f t h e p r o je c t, s o t h e r e w a s a b r i e fi n g s e s s i o n th a t w a s h e l d w i t h e i g h t c o m p a n i e s th a t h a d b e e n i d e n ti f ie d , a n d t h a t i s h o w t h e s t a r t o f Phase one you know comes about. A D V VA S S O N I S C : And how was that process managed, the r e s tr ic t e d p r o c e s s , w e l l b e fo r e I g e t t o t h a t w a s t h a t a n le g it i m a t e w a y o f e x t e n d i n g a c o n tr a c t ? MS NGOYE: N o i t w a s n o t C h a ir b e c a u s e y o u k n o w w h e n t h e – w h a t w e p i c k e d u p w a s w h e n th o s e e i g h t c o m p a n i e s w e r e in t h e m e e ti n g 10 n a t u r a l ly t h e y a s k e d f o r a n R F P, a r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l d o c u m e n t , a n d w h e n Ms M o s h o d e , r e m e m b e r M s M o s h o d e is g i v e n i n s tr u c t io n s b y t h e b o s s t o s a y t h i s i s a m e e t in g , g o c h a ir t h is m e e t in g a n d w i th t h e s e e i g h t c o m p a n ie s i n r e la t io n t o t h is n e x t p h a s e o f t h e p r o j e c t , s o w h e n s h e e n q u ir e s o r th e y, t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t h a d b e e n i n v it e d , e n q u ir e s a b o u t t h e d o c u m e n t , th e R F P w h e t h e r i t w a s i s s u e d o r n o t , a n d w h e n M s M o s h o d e , b e c a u s e s h e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e k n o w n , e n q u ir e d w h e t h e r there was an RFP document it came out that there clearly wasn’t an R F P d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s p r e s e n t , s o fr o m a p r o c e s s p e r s p e c t iv e C h a ir it ju s t s h o w s t h a t y o u k n o w n o p r o c e s s w a s fo ll o w e d i n th a t r e s p e c t , 20 t h a t ’s n o t h o w y o u d o th e s e ty p e o f tr a n s a c t io n s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C a n I ju s t u n d e r s t a n d i t , a n d i t is n o t e n t ir e ly c le a r a n d I k n o w y o u w i ll e x p l a i n l a te r t h a t y o u h a d a li m i t e d s e t o f d o c u m e n ts , b u t a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t u n fo ld e d is t h a t in s te a d o f a n R F P b e in g is s u e d o u t t o t h e w o r ld a s it w e r e i t w a s – a n in v i t a ti o n w a s sent to just eight companies? Page 36 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Is th e r e a n y in d ic a ti o n o f h o w t h o s e e i g h t companies were chosen? M S N G O Y E : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir h o w t h a t i n v i ta t io n c a m e a b o u t , s o I a m n o t r e a lly . . . [i n d is t in c t ] t o t h a t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : But if proper procurement processes had been f o ll o w e d w h a t w a s t h e p r o c e s s th a t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n fo ll o w e d ? MS NGOYE: W e ll C h a ir th e n o r m a l p r o c e s s w o u l d b e to in v i t e p e o p le , y o u k n o w y o u a d v e r t is e t h e t e n d e r s o t h a t y o u c a n h a v e p a r t ic ip a n ts 10 y o u k n o w c o m i n g t h r o u g h a n d r e s p o n d in g t o t h e t e n d e r t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e i n v i te d , y o u w o u l d h a v e y o u k n o w a d v e r t is e d b u t b e c a u s e th e r e w a s n o t e n d e r t h a t w a s a d v e r ti s e d s o w e d id n ’ t h a v e th e R F P t h a t t h o s e s u p p li e r s , t h e e i g h t w e r e l o o k in g f o r, s o t h e r e w e r e s t a g e s m i s s in g in the process. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A l r i g h t , t h e M s M a s h u d i c a n ’ t f in d t h e R F P w h o m d o e s s h e g o t o , t o l o c a te t h e R F P ? MS NGOYE: M s M a s h u d i th e n g o e s t o M r G a n t s h u to a s k f o r th e R F P. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 20 A n d w h a t d o e s Mr G a n ts h u d o ? W e l l M r G a n ts h u t h e n a s k e d M s M a s h o d i t o a c t u a l ly r e q u e s t th o s e c o m p a n ie s t h a t h a d b e e n i n v it e d t o p r o p o s e a b e s t s o l u ti o n f o r P R A S A , s o o n c e a g a i n y o u c a n s e e t h in g s a r e d o n e y o u k n o w b a c k w a r d , th e y a r e n o t d o n e p r o p e r ly, s o i n th a t p r o c e s s t h a t ’s w h e r e y o u th e n a s k t h e c o m p a n i e s t o y o u n o w p r o p o s e a b e s t s o l u ti o n f o r P R A S A , y o u ju s t d o n ’ t d o th i n g s li k e t h a t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I am just trying to understand then, I understand Page 37 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 y o u s a y i t is n o t p r o c e s s e d b u t w h a t w o u l d t h is w h o l e e n t e r p r is e a b o u t ? I m e a n P R A S A w a n ts t o n o w e n t e r P h a s e o n e , o r d i n a r i ly i t s h o u l d s e n d o u t a n R F P o u tl in i n g w h a t w o r k i t n e e d s t o b e d o n e , w h a t th e a p p r o x i m a te c o s t is g o in g to b e a n d s o o n , b u t i n t h i s c a s e i t s o u g h t in f o r m a ti o n f r o m t h e e i g h t p e o p l e w h o m h e h a d c h o s e n . MS NGOYE: Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d is s u c h a p r o c e d u r e c o u n t e n a n c e d b y a n y a s p e c t o f P R A S A o r P R A S A’s p r o c u r e m e n t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] MS NGOYE: 10 It is n o t c o m p li a n t C h a ir, it d o e s n o t c o m p l y w i th o u r p r o c e s s e s , o u r S E M p r o c e s s e s , s o c l e a r l y fr o m t h a t p r o s p e c tiv e t h a t process as granted. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w h a t e v e n t u a l ly h a p p e n e d , s o c o m p a n i e s a r e a s k e d t o d e a l w i t h t h i s m a t te r, o r w e ll to p r o d u c e s o l u t i o n s , w h a t t h e n happens? MS NGOYE: T h e y d o p r o d u c e t h e s o l u t i o n s C h a i r a n d a b id e v a l u a t i o n c o m m i t t e e i s th e n s e t u p t o e v a lu a te t h e r e s p o n s e s th a t c a m e fr o m t h e s e c o m p a n i e s , e ffe c t iv e l y t h e y s a t f o r t w o d a y s in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . C h a ir I t h i n k o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t o n e m u s t m e n t i o n , w h ic h is i m p o r t a n t, is th a t y o u w i ll r e c a l l t h is p a r ti c u l a r p r o c e s s w a s in t e n d e d t o 20 d e a l w i t h t h o s e s ta t io n s fo r th e 2 0 1 0 W o r l d C u p a n d w h e n y o u lo o k a t w h e n i t h a p p e n e d , th is t h in g h a p p e n e d lo n g a f t e r t h e 2 0 2 0 W o r l d C u p h a d fi n i s h e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u s a y – w h e n y o u lo o k a t – w h a t p e r i o d a r e y o u l o o k i n g , d o y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t , th a t ’s fr o m t h e b i d e v a l u a t i o n c o m m i t te e , Page 38 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 s o fr o m a p r o c e s s p e r s p e c ti v e a f t e r r e c e i v i n g t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h e b i d e v a l u a t i o n w il l t h e n e v a l u a t e th e r e s p o n s e s th a t c o m e fr o m t h e r e s p e c ti v e b i d d e r s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: And just for the record when was the World Cup? June 2010. CHAIRPERSON: Now the point you were making about when you said le t ’s lo o k a t w h e n th is h a p p e n e d , a n d s a y i n g w h e n w h a t i t w a s f o r w a s t h e p o i n t y o u w e r e s e e k i n g t o m a k e t h a t t h e n e e d , fo r t h i s h e a d f o ll o w i n g a w a y in th e li g h t o f t h e fa c t th a t t h e W o r ld C u p h a d c o m e a n d 10 gone. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Is that the point you are making? T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , i n t e r m s o f a ls o m y f o l lo w in g p r o c e d u r e , but the argument that could be put forward was there was urgency a r o u n d t h e p e r s o n , th a t ’s h o w y o u k n e w to c o n f i n e t h e p r o c e s s t o e i g h t companies. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , y e s . B u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d i t c l e a r l y d id n o t s e r v e th e p u r p o s e o f d e a li n g w i t h t h e s t a ti o n s t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d 20 for the 2010 walk-on. CHAIRPERSON: W o u ld t h e p o s i ti o n b e t h a t e v e n th o u g h o r ig in a lly t h e id e a m a y h a v e b e e n t o d o t h i s fo r th e W o r l d C u p w h e n it m a y h a v e b e c o m e c l e a r t h a t i t w a s n ’ t g o i n g t o b e r e a d y b e fo r e t h e W o r l d C u p , it w a s p r o c e e d e d w i th i n a n y e v e n t o n th e b a s is t h a t i t w o u ld b e h e l p f u l to PRASA anyway? Page 39 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir I th i n k t h a t w a s t h e u l ti m a t e i n t e n t io n , t o p r o c e e d a n y w a y w i th th is b u t a ls o C h a ir I t h i n k fr o m a p r o c e s s p e r s p e c t iv e w i th i n P R A S A t h e p la n n i n g h a s g o t t o b e d o n e p r o p e r ly, th e b u d g e t i n g h a s g o t t o b e d o n e p r o p e r l y f o r t h is ty p e o f w o r k t o b e undertaken. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , y e s . A n d n o n e o f t h a t y o u k n o w h a d h a p p e n e d a n d t h a t ’s w e s t il l h a v e p a r t ia lly d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s y o u s e e I a m a s k i n g t h e s e q u e s t i o n s s o t h a t I a p p r e c ia t e th e p o i n t y o u s e e t o m a k e . One point would be the need h a d fa ll e n a w a y . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: . . . th e r e fo r e t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r t h e m t o p r o c e e d with this project once it was clear that it wasn’t going to be ready for t h e W o r l d c u p , th a t ’s o n e p o in t . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n o t h e r p o in t w o u l d b e t o s a y e i th e r i n a d d i t io n to t h e fir s t p o i n t o r a s a s ta n d a l o n e p o i n t t o s a y p r o c e s s e s th a t o r d i n a r i ly w o u ld h a v e to b e f o l lo w e d f o r t h i s to b e d o n e , w h e th e r f o r t h e W o r l d 20 C u p o r n o t f o r t h e , w e r e n o t f o ll o w e d b e c a u s e it w a s s a i d i t i s f o r th e W o r l d C u p b a s e d o n u r g e n c y b u t o n c e i t b e c a m e c le a r t h a t t h is w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e r e a d y fo r th e W o r l d C u p t h e n i t s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n p r o c e e d e d w i th b e c a u s e t h e n t h e r e w a s n o n e e d o r b a s is to j u s ti fy . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] p r o c e s s e s i f it w a s n o w b e in g d o n e j u s t f o r P R A S A . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 40 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: B o t h p o in t s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Yo u m a k e b o t h p o i n ts ? O k a y. Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n I s e e it is j u s t q u a r te r p a s t e l e v e n n o w. CHAIRPERSON: A lr i g h t , le t u s t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , w e w il l r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t e l e v e n , w e a d jo u r n . 10 REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A IR PER SO N : L e t u s c o n tin u e . A D V VA S SO N I SC : As y o u p le a s e C ha irp e r s on . N o w Mis s N g oy e w e w e r e a t th e s ta g e wh e r e y o u s ay th e BEC h a d me t in r e g a rd to th is c o n tr ac t. W h a t w a s th e ir d e c is io n ? MS N G O YE: C h a ir p e r s o n th e BEC h a d d e c id e d to p r o c e e d w ith th e w ith – w ith th e a p p o in tme n t o f Siy a g e n a a n d th e y w o u ld h a v e to r e fe r th a t to th e BEC y o u k n o w fo r r e co mme n d a tio n th en to Mr Mo n ta n a a n d th e n to 20 th e Bo a r d . A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll if y o u lo o k a t w h a t y o u s a id a t p a r ag r a ph 2 1 , y o u – y o u ju s t, w h a t – w h a t d id th e y s a y th er e ? MS N G O YE: We ll Mr Mo n ta n a a t p a r a g r ap h 2 1 I d id s h o w th a t th is is w h e n th e BAC th e BEC s a t b u t I g u e s s wh e n th e r e co mme n d a tio n w as g iv e n to Mr Mo n ta n a h e d e c ide d h e d o es no t w a n t to p r o c e e d w ith – w ith Page 41 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 th e p r o c e ss a n y mo r e a n d o n c e a g a in y o u k no w it s h o w s in th e p a p e r s th a t Mr G a n s ho y ou k no w w a s r e le n tle ss . H e just e ffe c tiv e ly a s su r e d th e te a m n o t to b e d is c o u r a g ed a n d h e w o u ld d o s o me th in g a b o u t it. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N: C h a ir w e h a v e a s itu a tio n , s o r r y C h a ir. We ll I ma y a s w e ll ju s t s a y th is fo r w h a t it is w o r th , th e n a me Siy a n g e n a is in te r es tin g b u t I d o n o te th a t it is n o t S iy a b a n g e na . MS N G O YE: I t is a n g e n a C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th o s e w h o u n d er s ta n d Is iz u lu a n d th e c ur r en t to w n s h ip la n g u a g e w ill h a v e a c e r ta in c o n n o ta tio n I th in k Mr So n i u n d er s ta n ds it to 10 b u t if n o t s o me b o d y w ill e x p la in a n d it is q u ie t in te r e s tin g in th e c o n te x t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d h e re th e n a me h e r e , o k a y y e s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , w e h a v e a s itu a tio n w h er e Mr Mo n ta na s ay s n o y o u a r e n o t to p r o c ee d . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n Mr G a n s h o a ssu r e s th e te a m, w h a t - ho w d id th a t c o me a b o u t? MS N G O YE: We ll C h a ir e ffe c tiv e ly th e d is c us s ion s th a t we r e he ld b e tw e e n Mr Mo n ta n a a n d Mr G a ns h o ar o un d th a t th e ti me r e s u lte d in a c h a n ge o f h e a r t, I th in k h e wa s s u r e y o u kn o w Mr G an s h o th a t y o u k n o w 20 a fte r s p e a k in g to Mr Mo n ta n a , Mr Mo n t a n a w o u ld c h a n g e h is min d b e c a us e a s I s a id in itia lly h e c h a mp io n e d th is c o u rs e s o I th in k h e n e e d e d to s e e it to fin a lity. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e p o in t I a m tr y in g to ma k e h e re Mis s N go y e o n e if th e r e a s o n s th a t th e p r o c ur e me n t s ys te m, a n y p r o c ur e me n t sy s te m h a s a w h o le s e r ies o f d e c is io n ma k er s , fo r e x a mp le a n in te r an a lys is Page 42 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 w o u ld b e d o n e b y th e d e p a r tme n t in th e B EC a n d th e n th e BAC , w o u ld me a n th a t e a c h o f th e s e , e a c h o f th e m h a s a p a r tic u la r r o le to p la y a n d th e ir d e c is io ns w o u ld b e a ll fu n d a me n ta l to a fa ir p r o c e ss . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r ec t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w h a t d o e s Mr G a n s h o ’s as s ur a nc e to th e te a m o n w h a te v er th a t me a n s w h a t – w h a t d o e s th a t d o to th a t p r o c e ss ? MS N G O YE: We ll it in te r fe a r s w ith th e p r o c es s C h a ir, y o u kn o w a nd I c a n n o t a ls o ex p la in o r u n d er s ta nd w h y a c tua lly a fte r th e BEC h a d lo o k e d a t th e – a t th e r e s p o n s es th a t c a me fr o m th e v a r io u s b id d er s th a t Mr 10 Mo n ta n a h a d to b e c o n s u lte d , b e c a us e in v a r iab ly fr o m th e BEC th e p r o c es s w o u ld go to th e BAC a n d th e n if i t is w ith in h is limit, a u th o r ity w is e h e w o u ld th e n b e a b le to s a y y a y o r n a y. So , y o u k n ow th is c o n su lta tio n w ith Mr Mo n ta n a a fte r h a v in g d e c id e d th a t w e a r e g o in g to g o th r o u g h w ith th is pr o ce ss , ju s t d id n o t ma k e s e n se . It ju s t s h o w s y o u th a t n o p r o p er p r o ce ss e s w er e fo llo w e d in th is r eg a r d . A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll le t me s u g g e s t s o me th in g e lse a n d it is no t a q u e s tio n o f ju s t ma k in g se n se , it me a n s if I a m g o in g to ma k e th is s u g g es tio n to y o u a nd te ll me if y o u a g r ee . D id th e e n tir e p r o c es s in s u b ve r te d 20 MS N G O YE: O f c o u r s e , it is . I t is s u b v e r ted A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w th a t w a s o n th e in D e ce mb e r 2 01 0 . What h a p p e ns n e x t? MS N G O YE: C h a ir p e rs o n as p a r t o f th e p r o c es s es a s I e x p la ine d fr o m BEC w h ic h is th e Bid Ev a lu a tio n C o mmitte e y o u w ill g o to th e BAC w h ic h is th e Bid Ad ju d ic a tio n C o mmit te e i t is th e c o mmitte e th a t w ill th e n w o r k Page 43 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 o u t th e s u b mis s io n fr o m th e - fr o m th e BEC . W h e n th e B EC - BAC s a t o n th e 1 4 t h o f Fe b r u a r y a ll o f s u d d e n th e r e wa s a r e v iv a l C H A IR PER SO N: MS N G O YE: 2 0 11 [in te r v e n e s ]. 2 0 11 C h a ir th a t ma tte r s u dd e n ly ca me b ac k to life . Mr Mo n ta n a r e fu s es it fr o m th e BEC s id e b u t wh e r e th e BAC s its in 20 11 yo u – y o u fin d th a t th e p e r iod th e ma tte r h a d co me to life b e c a u se th e y - th ey ma d e a s u b miss io n to th e BAC fo r th e c o n c ilia tio n . A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: 10 An d Mr G a n s h o r e a ss ur a n c e th e n h as s o me b as is ? Th a t is c o r r ec t, h e c le a r ly k n ew w h a t h e w a s d o in g . A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w w h a t d id th e – e x c us e me C h a ir. W h a t d id th e BAC th e n d e c id e ? MS N G O YE: C h a ir p e r so n th e BAC h a d a p r o b le m d e a lin g w ith th e s u b miss io n s th a t w as ma d e by th e – by th e BEC , a lo t o f q u e s tio n s th a t w e r e a sk e d b y th e BAC in fa c t in a n u ts h e ll y o u k n o w th e y d id n o t a g r e e w ith th e p r o c e ss is s u es a r e wr o n g , b u d g e t is s u e s a ro u n d y ou k n ow w h y n o t g o in g o u t to a fo r ma l te n d e r p r o c e ss we r e r a is ed b y th e BAC d u r in g th a t time s o e ffe c tiv e ly th e r e wa s n o s u p po r t o f th e s u b mis s io n by th e BEC to th e BAC a n d a ls o a t th e ti me w h a t w a s r e fe rr e d to th e BAC w a s th a t th e r e w a s a c o n tes t b e tw e e n n o w Siya g e n a a nd Pr o te a a c o mp a ny 20 c a lle d Pr o te a – Pr o te a C o in . N o w if y o u lo o k a t w ha t w a s in v o lv e d Ch a ir p e rs o n fr o m a p r ic ing p e r s pe c tiv e y ou k n o w it w a s o d d th a t th e – t h e – th e - th e s u b mis s io n th a t w a s ma d e b y Pr o te a w a s s ittin g a t 1 .3 b illio n in r e la tio n to th is p a r tic u la r tr a n s ac tio n a n d b u t w h e n y o u lo o k a n d I w ill g o in to th a t e v id e n c e C h a ir p er so n u ltima te ly w h a t w a s a w a r d e d fo r Siy a g e n a th e ma th s – th e Page 44 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 n u mb e rs n e ve r lie . I me a n c le a r ly Pr o tea C o in s h o u ld h a v e b e e n th e s u cc e ss fu l p a r ty if y o u lo o k a t th e n u mb e r th a t w a s u ltima te ly fo r d e d to Siy a g e n a in r e la tio n to th is p r o c es s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w a s ub mis s ion wa s ma d e to th e BAC a nd w h a t w a s th a t s u b miss io n ? MS N G O YE: Th a t s u b mis s io n w a s re a lly th e e ffe c tiv e ly th e – th e – th e fr o m th e BEC to r e q u e s t th a t th e y c o n s id e r th e a p p o in tme n t o f Siy a g e n a . A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: 10 An d w e r e th e y to ma k e a r e c o mme n d a tio n to s o me Ye s s o a fte r th e B AC , th e BA C w o u ld th e n r e c o mme n d th e – th e – th e tr a n s a c tio n to th e FC IP w h ic h is th e r e Fin a nc e Ca p ita l In v e s tme n t C o mmitte e o f th e Bo a r d s o fr o m th a t p r o c e s s it w e n t fr o m a s u b co mmitte e o f th e Bo a r d . So th a t is th e r e c o mme n d a tio n th e y w o u ld h a v e ma d e to th e Bo a r d a s th e BAC A D V VA S SO N I SC : Bu t th e BAC in a n y c a s e to o k a d e c is io n in w h a t w a s its d e c is io n y o u d ea l w ith it p a r a g r a p h 2 3 MS N G O YE: C h a ir y e s in pa r a gr a p h 23 I d o p o in t o u t th a t w h a t w as s u b mitte d to th e FC IP w a s th e p r o p o sa l to Siy a g e n a to th e v a lu e o f 1 .9 1 .1 b illio n r a n d fo r th e e n tir e tr a n s a c tio n s o th is is w h a t th e B A – th e FC I P h a d to c o n s id er. 20 A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll if y o u lo o k a t t h e th ir d lin e o f p a r a g r a p h 2 3 y o u – yo u if y o u c o u ld jus t r e a d th a t th e n e x t s e n te nc e in to th e r e c o rd s ta r tin g w ith h a v in g d e lib er a te d MS N G O YE: R e a d s in to th e r e c o r d . “H a v in g d e lib e ra te d o n th is s u b mis s io n th e BAC d e c id e d n o t to r e c o mme n d th e a w a r d to Siy a g e n a Page 45 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 h o w ev e r PR ASA d o c u me n ts sh o w a d o c u me n t w ith a s ig n a tu r e th a t p ur p o r ts to be th a t o f th e C h a ir p e rs o n o f th e BAC Mis s Ta r a n N g u b a n i in a min u te o f th e BAC th a t r e c o r d s th e de c is io n r ec o mmen d in g th e a w a r d to Siy a g e n a fo r a n a mo u n t o f 1 .1 b illi o n ” A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h a t a r e y o u - yo u tr yin g to s u g g es t w ith – w ith th a t Mis s N g oy e th a t fr o m y o u r – y o u r fo u n d ing a ffid a v it a n d in th e r e v ie w a p p lic a tio n MS N G O YE: 10 O n c e a g a in C h a ir y o u k n o w if i t d o e s n o t p a s s ma s te r it s h o u ld n o t p ro c e ed . N o w if th e FC IP h a d d e c id e d n o t to r e co mme n d th is p a r tic u la r iss u e to – to - to th e Bo a r d fo r a p p r ov a l b e c a us e w h e n th e y c o n s ide r e d th e s u b mis s io n th e y s a id th e y d e c id e d th a t n o t to r e c o mme n d th e – th e s u b mis s io n th e y r e ce iv e d fro m th e B AC w a s th a t th e a p p o in tme n t s h o u ld n o t b e ma d e in fa v o u r o f. Bu t w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d C h a ir I g u e s s I mu s t c o n tin u e , a n d I r e fe r to th is min u te o f th a t w a s p u r p or te d a n d I s a y p u r p or te d b e ca u s e [in ter v e n es ]. C H A IR PER SO N: 23. I a m s o r r y may b e th e re is s o me mis ta k e in p a r ag r a p h O r u n le s s I a m c o n fu s e d . Th e s u b mis s io n r eq u es te d BAC to r e c o mme nd to th e FC IP th e a p p o in tme n t o f Siy a g e n a fo r th e p r o je c t 20 c a lle d ISAMS fo r a te n d e r o f 1 .1 b illio n ra n d a n d fo r a p er io d o f fiv e mo n th s . H a v in g d e lib er a te d on th e s ub mis s io n th e BAC d e c ide d n o t to r e c o mme nd th e a w a rd to Siy a g e n a o r th e po s s ib le ap p o in tme n t. So , it is n o t a t – a t FC IP le v e l a s y e t, a t th a t s ta g e . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r ec t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, o k a y, o k ay. Page 46 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: So w h e n th e B AC s a id b e c a u s e o f th e is s u e s th e y h a d r a is e d a nd th e c o n c er ns th a t c a me fr o m th a t me e tin g th e y d e c id e d n o t to r e c o mme nd it to th e BAC a n d th a t is h o w I r e fe r to th is min u te w h ic h is p u r p or te d ly s ign e d by Mis s Ta r an N g ub a ni b e c a us e th e r e w e r e is su e s a r o u n d th a t min u te b e c a u s e a ls o th a t min u te c a me lo n g a f te r th e ma tte r w a s r e fe rr e d to th e FC IP b y Mr Mb a ta . A D V VA S SO N I SC : C o u ld you- c o u ld you e x p r es s ly te ll th e C h a ir p er so n w h a t y ou a r e tr y ing to s a y th e BAC ma k e s a d e c is io n n o t to r e c o mme nd . 10 MS N G O YE: Th e y d o C h a ir, th e y ma k e [in te r v e ne s ]. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Bu t w h a t is – w h a t is th e min u te w h a t d o e s th e min u te o f th a t me e tin g r e c o r d ? MS N G O YE: Th e min u te o f th e me e tin g C h a ir p e rs o n ac c or d in g w h ic h - a c c or d in g to th e e v id e n c e w e h a v e w a s n o t e v e n s ig n ed a t th e t ime b y th e C h a ir p er so n . Th is is Mis s Ta r a n N gu b a n i a n d w h a t b ec a me e v ide n t y o u k n o w th r o ug h th e in v e s tig a tio n p r oc es s w as it w a s v e r y c lea r th a t th e BAC d o e s n o t a g r e e th a t th is p r o ce ss mu s t b e c o mp le te d . So y o u k n o w a n d th a t is w h y I ta lk to th e p u rp o r te d min u te tha t w a s n ow s ig ne d th a t h a d a s ig n a tu r e th a t w a s s ig n e d b y Mis s Ta r a n N g u b a n i w h ic h s h e o b v io us ly 20 th e n y o u k n o w o b je c te d to an d s a id it w a s no t h e r s ig na tu r e as p a r t o f th e in v e s tig a tio n p ro c es s th a t w e d id . S o c le a r ly fr o m th e p r oc e ss p e r s pe c tiv e th e BAC h ad d e c ide d w e a r e n o t g o in g to r e co mme n d th is th in g to – to - to th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N: MS N G O YE: N o w y o u s a id th e min u te s o f th e Bo a r d – o f th e B AC . O f th e B AC .. .[in te r v e n e s ]. Page 47 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: MS N G O YE: We r e n o t s ig n e d ? Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : N o w if th a t is th e c as e h o w d o y o u k n ow w h a t th e ir d e c is ion w a s? MS N G O YE: We ll w e h a v e g o t a c o p y o f th o s e min u te s C h a ir a n d th e r e w a s a r ec o r d a r ec o rd in g o f [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th a t is i t C H A IR PER SO N : 10 Yo u h a v e a r e c o r d in g? So , w h e n y o u lis te n to t h e r e c or d in g it is q u ite c le a r th a t [in te r v e n e s ]. MS N G O YE: It is v e r y c le ar. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: It w a s v e ry c le a r C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: O h o k a y. O k a y a n d th e n th e r e c or d in g h a s b e e n tr a ns cr ib e d . Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , o k a y b u t in – in in a t s o me s ta g e a d o c u me n t w a s d is c ov e re d th a t a p p e a r e d to b e s ig n ed b y th e C h a ir p er s on [in te r v e n es ]. MS N G O YE: By th e C h a ir p e r s on , ja . C H A IR PER SO N : 20 Su g g e s tin g th a t th e BA C h a d d e c id e d th a t Siy a g e n a s h o u ld b e a wa r d ed . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Bu t y o u s a y in th e s ta ti o n s s e e ms to h a v e s u g ge s te d th a t th e th e n C h a ir p e rs o n o f th e BAC s a id s h e h a d n o t s ig n e d . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s o k a y. Page 48 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , th e min u te w a s in fa c t a fo r g e ry fo r fa ls e ly r e p r es e n ta tio n . MS N G O YE: Th a t is w h a t Mis s Ta r a n N g u b a n i e ffe c tiv e ly s ay s in – in a n o th e r p r oc e ed in g w h er e s h e w a s as k ed to e x p la in y o u k no w th e e x is te nc e o f th a t min u te . Sh e in d ic a te d h e r s ig n a tu r e w a s for g e d an d sh e h a d n e v er s ig n e d th a t min u te . C H A IR PER SO N : Wa s it e s ta b lis h e d d id PR ASA c o n d u c t a ny o th e r in v e s tig a tio n to e s ta b lis h wh e th e r th a t w a s tr u e ? MS N G O YE: 10 We ll C h a ir I d o n o t th in k it w e n t fu r th e r th a n th a t b e c a u s e a s p a r t o f th e – th e – th e p r o c e ss th a t PR AS A w a s c o n d uc tin g a t th e ti me . Mis s Ta r a n N g u ba n i th e n d e c id e d n o t to y o u k n o w p r o c ee d w ith th e h e a r in gs [in te r v e n es ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . An d to r e s ig n . So PR A SA d id n o t fo llo w th r o u g h a n d c h e c k u p o n th a t v a lid - th e v a lid ity o f th a t s ig n a tu re s o w e d id n o t d o it. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w if I c o u ld ju s t d e a l w ith th a t is s u e a n d I k n o w th a t it is n o t imme d ia te ly h e r e . If th e c o n te n tio n a lle g a tio n is th a t th e min u te s w e r e fo r g ed c le a r ly a c r ime h a d b e en c o mmitte d . 20 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : H a s th is ma tte r b e e n re p o r te d to th e Po lic e w e ll th is a n d o th e r ma tte r s r e la tin g to th is c o n tr a c t? MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir th is ma t te r a n d e v e r y th in g th a t h a s tr a n s p ir e d a s fa r a s y o u k n o w th e – th e - th e ma lla r d min is tr a tio n o f th is a n d n o n c o mp lian c e w ith p r oc es s es h a s b e en r e po r te d . Page 49 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll if i t is r e p o r te d to th e Po lic e i t w o u ld h a v e to b e b e y on d ma lla r d min is tr a tio n . It w o u ld h a v e to b e c r imin a l c o n d uc t [in te r v e n e s ]. MS N G O YE: It w o u ld b e fr a u d a s w e ll a n d s o o n y e s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: Ye s , n o w w a s th a t r e p o r te d to th e Po lic e ? It w a s r e p o r te d Ch a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w h a t – w h a t is th e o u tc o me o f th o s e Po lic e in v e s tig a tio ns ? MS N G O YE: 10 We ll C h a ir th e r e h a s n o t b e e n mu c h r e a lly th a t h a s c o me fr o m th e Po lic e s id e in r e la tio n to th e ma t te r s th a t w e h a v e r e fe r r e d to y o u k n o w th r o u gh PR EC C A y o u k n o w fo r in s ta n c e ma tte r s to th e H a w ks a n d I c a n n o t re me mb e r if D oc to r Mo ta n a ga v e ev id e nc e to th e fa c t th a t y o u k n ow [in te r v e n e s ]. A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: D o c to r Mo le fe . I me a n D o c to r Mo le fe g a ve e vid e n c e to th e fa c t th a t a lo t o f w o r k th a t w as d o n e a n d r e fe rr e d fo r inv e s tig a tio n th e r e w as n o tr a c tio n r e a lly e ffe c tiv e ly to th a t. An d th a t is w h y h e th e n h a d to a ls o yo u k no w s u e th e D C PI fo r – fo r w o r k n o t d o n e . A D V VA S SO N I SC : 20 C H A IR PER SO N : An y w a y. An d w e ll k n o w in g w h o – kn o w in g w h o d id th a t s ig n a tu r e o n th a t d o c u me n t th a t p u r p o r te d to b e th a t o f th e C h a ir p e r s on mig h t th r o w lig h t o n w h o w a n te d w h a t b u t I a c c e p t th a t ma y b e fo r PR ASA’s p u r p o s es o n c e th e C h a ir p er s o n s ay s it is n o t my s ig n a tu r e th e n th e y ma y h a v e s a id w e ll th e n n o b o d y c a n c la im th a t s u c h a d e c is io n w a s ta k e n if th e p e r s o n if th e C h a ir p e rs o n sa ys it is n o t h e r s ig n a tu r e . Page 50 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : An d th e n it ma y w e ll b e t h a t fr o m o u r s id e o r o u r p la c e w e d o n o t – w e d o n o t n ee d to d o a ny th in g a b o u t it b u t it ma y w e ll b e th a t it is s o me th in g th a t c o u ld th r o w lig h t if i t w a s to b e k n o w n w h o ’s – w h o h a d p u t in th a t s ig n a tu r e . MS N G O YE: C h a ir p e r h a ps I c a n h e lp b y s a y ing th a t in th e – th e d is c ip lin ar y pr o ce e d in gs th a t Mis s Ta r a n N gu b a n i h a d to go th r o u g h . Sh e ma k e s a n a lle g a tio n th a t h e r s ig n a tu r e w a s fo r g e d b y Mr C h r is Mb a ta th a t is w h a t s h e a lle g es in th a t p r o c e e d in g [in te rv e n es ]. 10 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . a n d p e r h a p s may b e th e p a p er s r e la tin g to th a t p r o c e e d in g ma y b e h e lp fu l. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . As w e ll a s th e c o mmiss io ns s o th a t y o u ca n s ee w h a t th e C h a ir p er so n o f th e BAC s a y s . C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s – n o – n o I th in k th a t w o u ld b e imp o r ta n t a n d if th a t is th e a lle g a tio n a n d g iv e n th e r o le th a t Mr Mb a ta I th in k s e e ms to h a v e p la y e d it mig h t b e imp o r ta n t to e s ta b lis h w h e th e r in de e d it is Mr Mb a ta w h o p ur p o r te d to fo r g e th e C h a irp e rs o n sig n a tu r e . 20 So o b v io us ly th ey o u g h t to b e d o c u me n ts th a t h a v e Mr Mb a t a ’s s ig n a tu r e a t PR ASA a n d a c o mp a r is o n o f s ig n a tu r es a n d e x pe r t a n d wr itin g e x p e r t is it c o u ld th r o w lig h t o k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : So , th e n e x t s te p in th is p r o ce ss is w ha t Mis s N g oy e ? Page 51 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : I a m s o r r y. In th e p r o c ee d in g s th a t y o u h a v e r e fe rr e d to in w h ic h y ou s ay Mis s N g u b an i a lle g e d th a t it w a s Mr Mb a ta w h o h ad fo r g e d h is – h e r s ig n a tu r e a n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r s h e w a s s ay in g th a t b e c a us e s he r e co g n ise d th a t h a n d w r itin g as th a t o f Mr Mb a ta o r w h e th e r s h e k n ew s o me mo r e in fo r ma tio n a b ou t h o w th a t h a d h a p p e n e d . MS N G O YE: We ll I g u e s s C h a ir d u r ing t h e p r o c e e d in g s Mis s N g u ba n i r e a lly b e c au s e Mr Mb a ta h a d p la y e d a ma jo r r o le r e a lly in a ls o s u b mittin g th e s e p a p e rs to th e FC I P e v e n a fte r k n o w in g th a t th e B AC h a d n o t a p p r ov e d th e s e th in g s . Th e s u b mis s ion th a t s h e b e lie v e d th a t th e o n ly 10 p e r s on th a t c o u ld h a v e d o ne th a t w a s Mr Mb a ta . C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y th a n k y o u . I th in k w ith a ll th is la te s t in fo r ma tio n I th in k s o me th in g s h ou ld b e d o n e to s e e w he th e r o r w h os e s ig n a tur e th a t w a s . Th a n k y o u A D V VA S SO N I SC : Fr o m th e BAC i f th e ma tte r is to g o fo r w a r d w h ic h c o mmitte e w o u ld it g o ? MS N G O YE: It w o u ld h a v e to g o to th e F C IP C h a ir. So ma y b e I c o u ld a ls o p u t so me lig h t in to – in to e ffe c tiv e ly w ha t h a d h a p pe n e d . Th e 1 4 t h o f Fe b r u a ry th e BAC s its a n d d oe s n o t r ec omme n d th is th in g in fa c t th e y r a is e a w h o le lo t o f q u e s tio n s a n d th e e x p e c ta tio n w o u ld b e Mr Mb a ta 20 w o u ld g o b a ck to th e B AC a fte r h a v in g r e s o lv ed th e is s u es th a t w e r e r a is e d by th e BAC b u t th is d id n o t h a p p e n . Th r e e d a ys la te r o n th e 1 7 t h o f Fe b r u a r y y o u k n ow th e FC IP s its a n d Mr Mb a ta th e n s u b mits th is p r o p os a l to th e FC I P fo r r e c o mme n d a tio n to th e Bo a r d b u t y o u k n o w it h a d n o t b e en a p pr o ve d th e r e a n d th er e w as n o t a fu r th e r me e tin g o f th e Page 52 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 BAC th a t w o u ld h a v e a llo w e d Mr Mb a ta to d o th a t b u t w h a t w e fo u n d is th a t th r e e d a y s la te r o n th e 1 7 t h th is ma tte r s its b e fo r e th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N : We ll th a t is in te r e s tin g . So , y o u s a y th a t if th e BAC r e fu s es o r r e fu s e d a s it r e fu s e d to ma k e a d e c is io n th a t Siy a g e n a e v e n b e a w a r de d c o n tr ac t. Th e ma t te r s h o u ld h a v e n o t g o n e to a [in te r v e n e s ]. MS N G O YE: FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : 10 FC IP. An d w h o e ve r w as sp o n sor in g th e ma tte r I u s e th e te r m Mr Mb a ta in th is c as e . H e s h o u ld ha v e g o ne b ac k to th e BEC [in te r v e n e s ]. MS N G O YE: Th e B AC . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: MS N G O YE: An d r e c tify th e – th e – th e w h a te v er e r r or s ma yb e th e r e . It c a n n o t p r o c e ed . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: If h e is a b le to a t te n d to t h e m [in te r v e n e s ]. Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: W h a t s h o u ld h a p p en ? Th a t is i t b e c a u s e [in te r v e n es]. C H A IR PER SO N : 20 O k a y, s o th a t is [in te r v e n e s ]. Th a t w ill r a is e ...[ in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th e BAC a fte r a tte n d in g t h e q u e r ies . It c a n n o t p r o c ee d . Be c a u s e th e BAC s a id n o . Page 53 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : If h e is a b le to in h is v ie w s a tis fac to r y a tte n d to th e q u e r ies a n d ma n a g in g fr o m th e B AC w o u ld h e th e n b e e n title d to la te r o n h a v e it p la ce d b e fo re a n o th er me e tin g o f th e BAC fo r th e m to s e e w h e th er n o w th e y c a n mak e a p r o p er d e c is io n . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th a t- th a t is w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n . J a th a t is w h a t w o u ld ha v e to h a d h a pp e n e d be c au s e th e BAC s a y s n o . C H A IR PER SO N : 10 MS N G O YE: An d r a is e s q u es tio n s . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . Te ll u s w h e r e th e b a tte r e d is fo r th is . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ja. Ye s . An d y o u k n ow w hy h av e w e n o t g o n e o u t to te n d e r fo r [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ja. Su c h a b ig tr a n s a c tio n h e mu s t h a v e h a d to s a tis fy th o s e is s u es fir s t b e fo r e h e ta k e s it to th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N : 20 N o w w h e n a ma t te r c o me s b e fo r e th e FC I P w o u ld n o t th e FC IP n o r ma lly r e q u ire p r oo f th a t th e BA C h a s ma de th e r ig h t d ec is io n th e r e c o mme n d a tio n th a t ma k e s it n e c e s s a ry fo r th e ma t te r to c o me b e fo r e th e FC IP. MS N G O YE: It w o u ld h a v e to C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: It w o u ld h a v e to ? It w o u ld h a v e to . Page 54 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : Be c a u s e th e y are su p p o se d to lo o k at th e r e c o mme nd a tio n o f th e BAC . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th a t is r ig h t. Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N : N o w if Mr Mb a ta w ith i n th r e e d a y s a fte r th e B AC r e fu s e d p la c e d th e ma tte r be fo r e th e FCIP h o w w o u ld it h a v e be e n p o s s ib le in c ir cu ms ta n ce s w he r e th e r e w a s n o r e c o mme n da tio n fr o m th e BAC . 10 MS N G O YE: C h a ir th is is th e is s u e o f th a t min u te . R e me mb e r w h e n th e C h a ir p er so n o f th e B AC s ig n s o ff o n a mi n u te th a t – th a t s u p p o r ts th e a p p o in tme n t o f - o f - o f Siy a g en a th e n y o u k n o w it g iv e cr e d e nc e to th e ma tte r b e in g r e fe r r ed n o w to th e FC IP. So in th e r e p o r t th a t Mr Mb a ta a s th e C PO w o u ld ma k e – th e y w o u ld h a v e a tta c h w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t th e B AC a n d th e n th e - th e th e FC IP w o u ld th e n c o n s id e r a ll th e in fo r ma tio n th e y h a v e g e t g iv e n in th e r e p or t th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r e p ar e d b y Mr Mb a ta . C H A IR PER SO N : So in th e p o s itio n th a t Mr Mb a ta p la c e d b e fo r e th e FC IP th is min u te th a t is a lle g e d to h a v e b ee n g o t a n d s u gg e s te d th a t th e BAC h a d d e c id e d to r e c o mme nd Siy a g e n a . 20 MS N G O YE: It is o n ly e x p la n a tio n C h a ir s o h e - h e y e s . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Be c a u s e o th e r w is e th e FC IP w o u ld n o t h a v e [in te r v en e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . Wo u ld n o t h a v e e n te r ta in e d th e ma tte r. J a , y e s C h a ir. Page 55 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : Bu t y o u a r e – ar e yo u sa y in g y o u th e th a t d oc u me n t th a t is n o w a lle g e d to h a v e b ee n fo r g e d was d e fin ite ly p la c e d b e for e th e FC IP. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : Ma y I fo llo w u p w ith t w o q u e s tio ns . Ye s , y e s A D V VA S SO N I SC : We k n o w th a t a d o c u me n t w a s p r es e n te d to th e FC IP th a t is th e o n e th a t MR Mb a ta p r e s e n te d to th e m. 10 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Bu t th a t is th e o n e th a t Mis s N g u b a n i d is ta n c es h e r s e lf fr o m. Sh e s a y s th a t s h e d id n o t s ig n th a t min u te s . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : I w a n t to a s k y o u a p r io r q u e s tio n a n d th a t is in r e g a rd to th e me e tin g o f th e 1 4 t h th e BAC me e tin g o f th e 1 4 t h o f Fe b r u a ry. Th is – d id Miss N g u ba n i s ay th a t th e BAC h a d n o t in fa c t a p p r o ve d th e – th e a w a r d to Siy a g e n a . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir in fa c t Mis s N g u b an i w a s v e ry v oc a l if y o u lis te n to th e r e c o r d in g s h e jus t d id n o t ta k e it in te r ms o f th e s u b mis s io n s th a t 20 w a s ma d e b e fo r e th e BAC s h e fla tly r e fu s ed b e c a us e s h e – th e q u e s tio ns th a t y o u c a n h e ar fr o m th e r e co r d in gs r ea lly s h ow e d th a t th is is n o th e p r o c es s th a t s h e w as g o in g to s u p p or t. A D V VA S SO N I SC : So o n a n y b a s is w ha te v e r w as p r es e n te d to th e FC IP w e c a n s ay s a fe ly he r e a nd in th is c ommis s io n s o th a t th e – th e - th e Page 56 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 BAC d id n o t p r o v e th a t th e ma tte r b e s e n t to th e FC I P c o n tr a r y to w h a t w a s s a id in th a t min u te . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w th e s e c o n d iss u e a n d it a r is es fr o m w h a t C h a ir p er so n h as s a id w as . W h ils t th e r e w as th is min u te fr o m th e BAC to s a y loo k we – we th in k th e aw a r d s h ou ld be ma d e to Siy a g e na b u t th e y h a d a d iffe r e n t fid u c ia ry d u ty th e y w e r e n o t s imp ly re q u ir ed to a cc e p t th e r e c o mme nd a tio n o f th e BAC th e y w e r e r e q u ir e d to c h e c k a ll th e p r o c e s s es b e fo r e th e ma tte r c a me b e fo r e th e B AC a n d h o w th e BAC h a n d le d th e 10 ma tte r. MS N G O YE: C h a ir y o u k n o w th e th in g – th e w a y th in g s h ap p e n ed a t PR ASA th a t is s imp ly th e e x p ec ta tio n . Yo u k n o w th a t y o u sa tis fy y ou rs e lf fu lly a s to w h a t a s tr a n s p ire d b u t I g u e s s in – in y o u k n ow th e w a y th in gs w o r k is th a t fr o m th e s u b mis s ion th a t w a s ma d e b y th e BAC w o u ld n o t n e c es s ar y a lso g o b ac k wa r ds . W h e n it g e ts to th e FC IP y o u k n o w th e FC IP w ill ju s t y o u k n o w s a d d le its e lf w ith w h a t is b e fo r e it . I guess q u e s tio n s wo u ld b e a sk e d y ou k n ow, y o u k no w w h a t p r o ce ss e s w er e th e r e a n d s o o n a n d I g u e ss w h a t h a p p e ne d in th is p a r tic u lar c a se w a s is th a t Bo a r d a ss u me d y o u k n ow th a t e v er y th in g y ou k n ow w as in or d e r b u t a g a in 20 C h a ir if y o u lo o k a t th e a mo u n t o f mo n e y th a t w a s in v o lv e d it w a s a n a mo u n t th a t w a s w a y b e yo n d th e – th e - the a u th o r ity o f th e gr o u p C EO a n d I th in k I w o u ld lik e to ma k e a s u b missio n th a t s a y s fo r th a t ty p e o f ma tte r to a p p e a r b e fo r e a s u b c o mmitte e o f a Bo a r d b e fo r e it w a s y o u k n o w ta k en u p to te n d e r th e Bo a r d w o u ld h a v e h a d to a p p ro v e th a t th is p a r tic u la r tr an s ac tio n is ta k e n ou t to te n d e r s o o n e w o u ld h a v e ex p ec te d Page 57 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 th a t q u e s tio n s ma y b e a s k ed to s a y w h a t p r o c es s w as fo llo w e d in th is r e g a rd . I d o n o t th in k th a t h a p p e n e d . A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll, s o th e y w o u ld h a v e h a d to a s k th e m if th e y w e r e ac tin g in te r ms o f th e ir fid u c ia ry d u ties in te r ms o f th e PFMA b e in g th e – th e a c c o u n tin g au th o r ity o f – o f PR AS A th a t o n e w o u ld a s su me th e n th a t th e y w o u ld in q u ir e a s to w h y w a s th is ma t te r n o t b e fo r e u s p r io r to th e p r o c es s b e in g s to pp e d . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : 10 MS N G O YE: An d th e fr o m th e in fo r ma tio n y o u h a v e th a t w a s n o t. N o , it is e v id e n t C h a ir fr o m wh a t tr a n s p ir ed th a t c le a r ly th a t d id n o t h a p p e n . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An y w a y, th e ma tte r is n o w b e fo r e th e FC I P a s y o u s a y in p a r ag r a ph s 2 4 a n d 2 5 in y ou r a ffid a v it w h a t h a p p e n s th e n ? MS N G O YE: C h a ir th e s u b mis s io n th a t w a s ma d e to th e BAC , r ig h t w a s fo r Siy a n g e n a to b e a p p o in te d a n d th e v a l u e o f th e tr a n s a c tio n w a s 1 .1 b illio n r a n d . Bu t w h e n it w e n t n o w to th e F C IP th e a mo u n t w a s in c r e a s ed to 1 .9 b illio n r a n d . So i t w a s n o lo n g e r th a t 1 .1 th a t w a s s h o w n to th e BAC to c o n s id er. So y o u c a n a lre a dy s e e th a t th e r e is n o jus tific a tio n o r e x p la n a tio n o f w h y y o u w o u ld th e n ha v e the n p r o du c e d a n a mo un t o f 1 .1 20 to th e B AC , y o u th e n g o to th e FC IP a n d h y p e it u p to 1 .9 C H A IR PER SO N: So th e r e is a b o u t 8 - a n d a d d itio n a l 8 0 0 millio n r a n d ... ( in te r v en e s) MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: J u s t th r o w n in . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 58 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: An d h a v in g r e g a r d to th e d o c u me n ts th a t w e r e p la c e d b e fo r e th e BAC a n d th e d o c u me n ts th a t w e r e p la c e d b e for e th e FC IP, in w h a t d o c u me n t d o es th is c h an g e ? Is th e r e a n a lte r a tio n in s o me d o c u me n t th a t w a s b e fo r e th e BAC , a l te r a tio n o f th e n u mb e r o f th e a mo u n t o r is th e r e a n e w d o c u me n t th a t w a s n o t b e fo r e th e BAC th a t is p u t in to th e d o c u me n ts th a t w ill g o to th e F C IP? MS N G O YE: C h a ir th e d o c u me n t th a t w a s p la c e d b e fo r e th e BAC s p o k e to 1 .1 s o r e me mb e r a ls o th a t th e BAC d o e s n o t s u p p o r t th e s u b miss io n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . 10 MS N G O YE: So e ffe c tiv e ly it is a n e w d o cu me n t th a t th e n c o n ta in s th is n u mb e r o f 1 .9 . W h ic h w o u ld h a v e n o t b e e n ta k e n b ac k to th e BAC b e c a us e a ll th is h a p p en e d 3 d a ys a fte r th e BAC h a d g ive n a c le a r in d ic a tio n th a t th e y a r e n o t g o in g to s u p p o r t th is p r o c e ss . So it d o e s s h o w th a t a s e p a r a te n ew d o c u men t w a s th e n c r e a te d w h ic h r e fle c te d th e n u mb e r 1 .9 w h ic h is n o t w h a t w as ta k e n to th e BAC . A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h a t w a s th e n u mb e r in th e fo r g e d d o c u me n t? W h e n I s a y nu mb e r, w ha t w a s th e a mo u n t se t o u t in th e d o c u me n t th a t Ms N g u b a ne s a ys is a fo r g e d d oc u me n t? MS N G O YE: It is 1 .9 C h a ir. 20 A D V VA S SO N I SC : So th a t d o c u me n t h a d n o t o n ly w r o n g e d- I me a n n o t o n ly mis re p r es e n te d w h a t th e d e c is io n o f th e BAC w a s b u t a ls o mis r e p re s e n te d th e a mo u n t th a t th e c o n tr a c t w o u ld b e w o r th ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r re c t. Be c a u se if yo u lo o k a t th e min u te s C h a ir, th e min u te d o e s n o t a ls o c a p tu r e w h a t w as in th e r e c o r d in g . So y o u c a n s e e th e r e w as a lte r a tio n s o f th in g s th a t w e r e d isc u ss e d th e r e a n d it Page 59 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 b e c o mes e v id e n t th a t. An d a ls o fr o m th e fa c t th a t Ms Ta r a N g u b a n e s a y s , lo o k I d o n o t k n o w th is d o c u me n t it is n o t my s ig n a tu r e th a t is o n th e r e , s h o ws v er y w e ll if it h a d b e e n th e min u t e o f th e B AC it w o u ld h a v e r e fle c te d 1 .1 b illio n b e c a u se th a t is w h a t w a s p r es e n te d to th e m. Bu t b e c a us e th is d oc u me n t a p pe a rs fr o m s o mew h e r e w ith h e r s ig n a tu r e an d d iffe r e n t in fo r ma tio n o n th e r e s h o w s a c lea r mis in te r p re ta tio n th a t w a s th e n s e n t to th e FC I P fo r c o n s id er a tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Is it p o s s ib le to g e t th e d o c u me n ts- th e s e t o f d o c u me n ts th a t s e rv e d b e fo r e th e BEC , th e s e t o f d o c u me n ts th a t s e r v e d 10 b e fo r e th e B AC a n d th e s e t o f d o c u me n ts th a t s e r v e d b e fo r e th e FC I P? Yo u h a v e g o t th a t s o me w h e r e a t PR ASA. MS N G O YE: We g o t- y e s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. I f w e c a n g e t th o s e , it is b a s ic a lly a ll th e le v e ls , BEC , B AC , FC IP. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: So o n e c a n ha v e th e - s o I c a n h a v e th e d oc u me n ts in fr o n t o f me I c a n s e e w h er e th e d iffe r e n ce s a r e in te r ms o f w h a t w as p la c e d b e fo re w h ic h lev e l. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ar e th e r e a n a n n e x e d t o th e a ffid a v it in th e fo u n d in g 20 o f it? MS N G O YE: Ye s , th e y w ill b e p a r t o f th e d o c u me n ts th a t s u p p o r t th e r e v iew a p p lic a tio n C ha ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : It w o u ld b e e a s y to a c ce s s th o s e C h a ir pe r so n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y. As lo n g a s w e h a v e g o t th e m. Page 60 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Be fo r e th e C o mmis s io n . A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w Ms N g o y e y o u a ls o ma k e a s e co n d p o in t in p a r a gr a p h 2 6 ab o u t a n a u d ite e in r es p ec t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e FC IP me e tin g o n th e 1 7 t h o f Fe b r u a r y. W h a t is th a t? MS N G O YE: C h a ir th e o th e r is su e th a t c ome s u p as p a r t o f th e a g en d a ite m a t th e FC I P is th e a p p r o v a l o f th e b u d g e t. An d w h a t is r e fle c te d in th e r e is a n a mo u n t, fo r th is s p ec ific p r o ject fo r in s ta n c e in te r ms o f th e g a te s a n d se c ur ity p r oc es s es w as a n a mo u n t o f 3 1 7 millio n th a t w a s 10 a llo c a te d to th is p r o je c t, r ig h t. So th e s a me b o a r d c o n s id e rs th is a mo u n t fr o m a b u d g e ta r y p e r s pe c tiv e b u t h a s a p p ro v e d a tr a n s ac tio n th e FC I P in fa c t r e c o mme n d s a tr a n s a c tio n th a t is w a y a b o v e th is a mo u n t th a t th e y w o u ld h a v e c o n s ide r e d as a b u d g e ta ry a mo u n t fo r th e MTF w h e r e th is p r o d uc t w a s c o n ce r n ed . So th e r e is a n a n o ma ly th e r e C h a ir p e rs o n . Be c a u s e c le ar ly if y o u k n ow th a t th e r e is n o b u d g e t fo r th is y ou s h o u ld n o t th e n e n te r ta in a n a mo u n t th a t is g r e a te r th a n th a t w h ic h y o u h a v e b u d ge te d fo r. A D V VA S SO N I SC : A t th e r is k o f p e r h a p s b e in g to o p e d a n tic , th e s a me me e tin g in d ic a te s o r a p p r o v es a n a mo u n t o f 1 ,9 5 b ill io n r a n d in r e s p e c t o f 20 th is c o n tr a c t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d a t s o me s ta g e d u r in g th a t s a me me e tin g it is to ld th a t th e b u d g e t is 3 1 7 millio n . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 61 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Wo u ld y o u b e a b le if y o u w e r e a sk e d to e x p la in th a t s o r t o f a n o ma ly ? MS N G O YE: I d o n o t k n o w if I c a n e xp la in it. It s h o u ld n o t h a v e h a p p e n ed . I me a n i t is c o mmo n s e n s e I g u e s s w e w o n a s ittin g . Yo u h a v e g o t to a n a ly s e th e s e th in g s p r o p e r ly a n d a p p ly in g y o ur mid y o u w o u ld h a ve p ic k ed u p th a t th e r e is s o me t h in g a mis s a s fa r a s th is is c o n ce r n ed . A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h a t w e - y o u h a v e h ig h lig h te d s o me o f th e ir r e g u lar itie s in r eg a r d to th e ma tte r be fo r e th e FC IP. An d fr o m th e FC IP 10 w h e r e wo u ld th e ma tte r g o to n e x t? MS N G O YE: Th e ma tte r w e n t to th e b o a r d C h a ir. So fr o m th e FC IP it g o e s to th e b oa r d be c a us e th e FC IP r e c o mme n d s to th e b o ar d wh ic h th e n a p p r ov e s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e FC IP ’s r e c o mme n d a tio n to th e b o a r d w a s a c o n tr ac t a t 1 ,9 5 b illio n r a n d . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t b u t th e min u te s d o e s n o t s h ow C h a ir, o f th e b o a r d me e tin g C h a ir, d o e s n o t s h ow th e a m o u n t th a t th e b o a r d r e fle c te d . So th e min u te , th e b o a r d w h e n it is ta k e n th e r e e ffe c tiv e ly it s a y s to th e te a m n e g o tia te w ith Siy a n g e n a o n th is c o n tr a c t b u t it d o e s n o t ta lk to th e 20 a mo u n t. C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w h a t w a s b e fo r e th e m ... ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: Wa s 1 ,9 C H A IR PER SO N: Wa s 1 .9 ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 62 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: So if th e y s a id n e g o tia te , th e y k n e w th a t th e y w er e s a y in g n eg o tia te in r e s p ec t o f 1 .9 ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d if th e y d id n o t w a n t th e c o n tr ac t to b e c o nc lu d e d a t 1 .9 th e y w o u ld h av e s a id if- d e p e n d in g on wh a t th e y me a n t w h e n th e y s a y n e g o tia te , o n e th in g is th ey co u ld b e s ay in g , n e g o tia te a lo w er p r ic e or th e y c o u ld b e s a y in g n e g o tia te e v er y th in g an d c o n c lu de a c o n tr a c t a n d w e le a v e it u p to y o u . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t if th e y d id n o t w a n t the c o n tr ac t to b e c on c lu de d o n th e b a s is o f 1 .9 b illio n , th e y w o u ld ha v e sa id , w e ll n e g o tia te b u t if th e p r ic e d o es n o t c o me d o w n to w h a tev e r w ith a fig u r e , th e n d o n o t s ig n . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th a t is th e e x p e c ta tio n th a t o n e w o u ld h a ve h a d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: W h e n y ou lo o k a t th es e th in gs in th e ma n n er in w h ic h th e y a r e s u p po s ed to b e d o n e . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: So th e r e is a c la r ity a ll th e w a y. C H A IR PER SO N: So i f th e y s a id n e g o tia te w ith o u t p u ttin g a n y c o n d itio n s in te r ms o f w h a t a mo u n t i t me a n s th a t th e y h a d n o p a r tic u la r d is co mfo r t a b o u t a c o n tr a c t b e in g co n c lud e d o n th e b a sis o f th a t a mo u n t . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. Page 63 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Bu t a ls o C h a ir if y o u lo o k a t it , it is a h u g e a mo u n t. It is 1 .9 ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: It is a b o u t 2 b illio n . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Bu t th e - o n e w o u ld h av e ex p e c te d th a t th e re is a lso a r e q u es tin g w h e n d id th e te n d e r g o o u t, a ll th o s e q u es tio n s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . 10 MS N G O YE: It h a s to h a v e b e e n a sk e d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: An d ja , o n e d o e s n o t .. . ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t a ls o , th e is s u e o f th e b u d g e t is it n o t? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: D o w e h a v e b u dg e t fo r th is ? MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: It is th e mo s t o b v io u s q u es tio n . MS N G O YE: J a . C H A IR PER SO N: An d a s y ou s ay th e n th ey h ig h e r th e a mou n t th e n mo r e 20 c a u tio u s . MS N G O YE: Th a t is i t. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e b o a r d r u le s h o u ld b e a n d th e mo r e it s h o u ld a s k p r o b in g q u es tio n s . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d a s k fo r d o c u men ts a nd s o o n . Page 64 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . O k a y, I g u e s s w e- it w ill b e imp o r ta n t to g e t e v e n th e min u te s o f th e s e v a r io us le v e ls w he n la id o u t w ith th is is s u e , BEC , BAC , FC I P a n d b o a r d . So o n e g e ts a g o o d p ic tu r e b e c au s e it is - th e r e a r e s tr a n ge v e rs io ns . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w in r e g a r d to y ou r e v id en c e u p to 9 r e ga r d to p h a s e 1 ... ( in te r v e n e s) 10 C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y Mr So n i. A D V VA S SO N I SC : So r r y. C H A IR PER SO N: So th e p e o p le w h o s it in th e BEC , B AC a n d FC IP a r e o ffic ia ls o f e mp lo y e e s o f PR ASA , n o b o a r d me mb e r s s it th e r e ? MS N G O YE: Th e BEC a n d th e BAC a r e th e e mp lo y e es o f PR ASA . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Th e FC IP . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Is a s u b c o mmitte e o f th e b o a r d . MS N G O YE: J a . I t is a s u b c o mmitte e o f th e b o a r d . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . 20 MS N G O YE: So it is o n ly b o ar d me mb er s . Th e ma n a g e men t th a t g o e s to th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Wo u ld ju s t b e fo r p u r p o s e o f p r e s e n ta tio n th e ma tte r s to th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . Page 65 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Bu t th e y a r e n o t me mb e r s o f th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N: J a w e ll, I w a s as k ing th a t q u e s tio n b ec a us e I w as w o n d er in g w h e th e r s o me bo d y w h o ma y h a v e s it a t o n e o f th e s e le v e ls w o u ld n o t p ic k u p th e d isc r e pa n cy o n th e p r ic e w h e n th e ma tte r c a me b e fo r e th e b o a rd . Bu t if b o a r d me mb e r s w e r e o n ly a t- a d v ic e a t ... ( in te r v en e s) MS N G O YE: FC I P. C H A IR PER SO N: FC IP le v e l a n d th e y w e r e mis le d in to th in k in g th a t th is w a s th e p r ic e th a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a tta c he d to th is p r o je c t, th e y mig h t 10 n o t h a v e a n y iss u es w h e n it c a me b e fo r e th e b o a r d . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: W h e re a s if s o me bo d y w h o h av e s a t a t BAC le v e l h a p p e n ed to b e a w a r e th a t th is ma tte r w a s b e fo r e th e b o a r d a nd s a w th e fig u r e th e y w ill s a y, h a n g o n , w h e n th is th in g w a s b e fo r e u s th e fig u r e w as 1 .1 s o h o w d o y o u ex p la in th is . MS N G O YE: J a . I t is v e r y u n fo r tu n a te C ha ir a n d I th in k w h a t w e p ic k e d u p b e c a us e o f th e a n o ma lie s th a t w e r e h a p p e n in g in PR ASA a r o u n d th e s u b miss io n o f d o c u me n ta tio n to th e FC IP. Be c a u s e o f th e s e is s ue s th a t th e c h a ir p er s on fo r in s ta nc e o n th e FC IP is n o t th e p e r s o n th a t p r ep a r es 20 th e r e p o r t th a t g o e s to th e FC IP. Th e r e p o r t is p r e p a r e d b y th e C PO th e C h ie f Pr o c u re me n t O ffic e r a n d th e c ha ir p ers o n o f th e FC IP d o e s n o t h a ve s ig h t o f w h a t th e n is r e fe r r e d to th e FC IP b y th e C PO . So th e r e is th a t mis s in g lin k . C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t o r d in a r ily th e r e p o r t t h a t w ill g o to th e FC I P w o u ld h a v e b e en p r e p ar e d b y th e c h a ir p e rs o n o f th e BAC . Page 66 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t- w e ll, i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n- th a t is n o t h o w it w a s . C H A IR PER SO N: It is n o r ma lly. MS N G O YE: Th a t is i t. C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is w h a t h a p p e n s n o rma lly ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is it . Bu t it d id n o t h a p p e n th a t w a y a t PR A SA. I t w a s th e C h ie f Pr o c u r e me n t O ffic e r w h o p r e pa r e d a r e p o r t to th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Bu t w h a t I a m tr y in g to u n d e r s ta n d th e n y o u se e y o u sa y a t PR ASA. W h a t I a m tr y in g to u nd e r s ta n d is wh a t th e p r ac tic e w a s a t PR ASA g e n e r a lly ? An d th a t w h a t ha p p e n e d on th is o cc a s ion w a s 10 s o me th in g th a t d id n o t a c c o r d w ith p r ac tic e a t PR AS A. MS N G O YE: N o C h a ir, a t PR ASA in s te a d .. . ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: Is it a lw a y s p r e p a re d b y th is ... ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: Th e C PO . C H A IR PER SO N: Pr o c u r e me n t- o h , o ka y. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . So w e fo u n d o u t in o th e r tr a n s a c tio n s C ha ir th a t w e r e d o ne w h e re th e b o a r d s ta r te d q u es tio nin g c e r ta in th in g s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: We ll w e th e n w e n t b a c k to th e c h a ir o f th is o f th e C H A IR PER SO N: Th e FC IP. 20 MS N G O YE: Th e BAC . C H A IR PER SO N: Th e BAC , ja . MS N G O YE: Th e y w o u ld n o t n ec e ss a r ily ag r e e . I r e me mb er o n e ma tte r y e s w h en th e c h a ir o f th e B AC s a id , b u t th a t is n o t th e r e p o r t th a t I w o u ld h a v e sa n c tio n ed a s th e ch a ir o f th e BAC to g o to th e FC IP. Page 67 of 211 So th a t 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 c o n tin u ity w a s ju s t n o t th e r e . So y o u h a v e o n e p e r s on b e in g in c o n tr o l o f a p a r tic u la r p ro c es s b u t y o u h av e a n o th er p re p a r in g a r e po r t. C H A IR PER SO N: J a , it is q u ite s tr an g e if it is r e fe r r e d to as a re p o r t o f th e BAC to th e FC IP. MS N G O YE: N o i t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: I f it is n o t p r e p a r e d b y th e BAC o r th e c h a ir p e r s o n o f th e BAC . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir pe rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: Be c a u s e a c tu a lly it me a n s it is n o t a r e p o r t o f th e B AC . 10 It me a n s th a t s o me o n e .. . ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: It is th e r e p o r t o f th e C PO . C H A IR PER SO N: Th is r e p or t of what th e p r o c e ed in g s- how th e p r o c ee d in gs w e r e . MS N G O YE: J a . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, b u t th a t w a s PR ASA p r a c tic e ? MS N G O YE: We ll th a t is h o w w e d id th in g s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w Mr Mb a th a w a s th e C h ie f Pr o c u re me n t O ffic e r, is th a t c o r r e c t? 20 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : In th a t c a p a c ity w o u ld h e b e a me mb er o f a n y o f th e c o mmitte e s lik e th e BEC o r th e BAC ? MS N G O YE: We ll h e - n o . H e ma k e s s u bmis s io ns . So h e w o u ld b e th e o n e th a t .. . ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: H e e ffe c tiv e ly s p o ns o rs . Page 68 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is i t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Th in g s th a t c o me s b e fo r e th is c o mmitte e s . MS N G O YE: Th a t is r ig h t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w o u ld h e a tte n d th e BAC me e tin g ? MS N G O YE: H e w o u ld h a ve a tte n d e d th e BAC me e tin g C h a ir b e ca u s e ... ( in te r v en e s) 10 A D V VA S SO N I SC : ( in d is tin c t) is n o t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is i t. Be c a u s e th e q u estio n s th a t a r e p o s e d w o u ld b e p o s e d to h im. So in th is r e s p e c t h e w a s p res e n t a t th e B AC me e tin g . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th is h ig h lig h ts th e a n o ma ly r a is e d b y th e C h a ir p er so n th a t th e p e r s o n w h o h a s a n in te r e s t in w h y th e y a r e a s k in g th e BAC to s a n c tio n o r r e je c t a c o n tr a c t is th e p e r s o n w h o is th e n g o in g to d o th e r e p o r t fo r th e FC IP. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w in y o u r ev id e nc e u p to n o w r e la tin g to p h a se 1 Ms N g oy e yo u h av e d e ta ile d th e ir r eg u la r ities a n d s o o n . In p ar a g ra p h 2 8 20 y o u s u mma r ise th a t. C o u ld y o u ju s t s u mma r is e ju s t s o th a t w e h a v e a s o r t o f p ic tu r e o f h o w ir r e g u lar th e p r o c es s w a s ? MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. So e ffe c tiv e ly th e r e w a s n o o p e n te n d e r p r oc e ss . An d th e r e w a s n o t e v e n a r e q u es t to d e v ia te fr o m th e o p e n te n d e r p r o c es s . Th e r e w a s no R FP a n d th e r e w e r e n o ev a lu a tio n c r ite r ia b e c a us e th a t w o u ld b e s ta te d in th e te n d e r d o c u me n ta tio n . So e ffe c tiv e ly Page 69 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 b id d e rs w e r e a s k ed to r e a lly ma k e , I s a y a s h o t in th e d a r k , a n d h o p e th a t PR ASA w o u ld b e h a p p y w ith it . An d th a t is w h y I th e n e a r lie r o n r e fe r s to Pr o te a C h a ir. b illio n . Pr o te a C o in s u b mitte d a r e s p o ns e , th e ir a mo u n t w a s 1 .3 N o w if y o u h a d th e n lo o k e d a t th e a mo u n t th a t w a s fin a lly a w a r de d 1 .9 , th e a w a r d s h o u ld h a v e g o ne to Pr o te a C o in b e c a u s e th e y w e r e th e c h e ap e r o n es . Bu t i t d id n o t it w e n t to Siy a n g e n a . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w h a t d o y o u s a y ab o u t th a t in p a r a g r a p h 2 8 ? MS N G O YE: Pr o te a - I d id n o t me n tio n t h a t Pr o te a C o in te n d e r e d th e p r ic e o f 1 .3 b illio n w h ic h is mu s t c h e a p e r th a n Siy a n g e n a . It lo s t b e c a u s e 10 o f a fu n d in g mo d e l th a t a p pa r e n tly is pa r t o f th e s u b miss io ns th a t Siy a n g e n a ma d e , it p r o v id e d a fu n d in g mo d e l. Bu t th a t fu n d in g mo d e l w a s n o t a r e q u ir e me n t th a t e v e r y b o d y k new th e y h a d to g iv e th is p a r t o f th e r e s p o ns e s th ey ma d e to PR ASA . C H A IR PER SO N: We ll w h en y ou s ay Pr o tea C o in te n d er e d c o n tr ac t w is e w a s 1 .3 b illio n a n d it w a s mu c h c h e a p er th a n Siy a n g e n a ’s o n e . Yo u a r e c o mp a r ing th a t p r ic e w ith 1 .9 ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is 1 .9 C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s . Be c a u s e th a t w a s u ltimate ly th e a mo u n t th a t s a t a t th e 20 b o a r d a t th e FC IP. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Bu t a t- w e k n o w th a t a t . .. ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: BAC . C H A IR PER SO N: BEC le v e l .. . ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: An d BAC . C H A IR PER SO N: All th e p r ic e s w o u ld h a ve b e e n th e r e . Is th a t r ig h t? Page 70 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t d o w e k n o w w h e th e r a t BAC le v e l a ll th e p r ic e s w o u ld h a ve b e e n th e r e a n d a t FC IP a n d a t t h e b o a r d ? MS N G O YE: A ll th e p r ic e s w o u ld b e th e r e Ch a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: It w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e r e . MS N G O YE: Ye s , th e y w o u ld h a v e h ad to b e th e r e . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Be c a u s e y o u - a s p a r t o f th e r e p o r tin g y o u th e n s h o w w h o c a me w h er e a n d s o . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . J a . So b e c a u s e Siya n g e n a wa s s till c o mp e tin g ... ( in te r v en e s) MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Th r o u g h o u t th e p r o c e ss w ith Pr o te a C o in a n d s o on. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: So Pr o te a C o in ’s p r ic e w a s th e r e ? Siy a n g e n a ’s p r ic e w a s th e r e ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: 20 An d b a s ic a lly, b o th a t FC IP a n d th e b o a r d le v e l- th e FC IP a n d th e b o a r d h a d to lo o k a t 1 .9 b il lio n a n d 1 .3 b illio n ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is r ig h t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d o n e a c h - o ka y, in e a ch c a s e th e y ch o se 1 .9 b illio n ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: In s te a d o f 1 .3 b illio n . MS N G O YE: 3 , y e s . Page 71 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t in th e min u te s o f th e s e - o f th e FC IP a n d th e b o ar d a n d I k n o w Mr So n i mig h t s till h a v e b e en pla n n in g to g o th e r e , is th e r ed o e s th e FC IP a n d d o es th e b o ar d wh e n the ma tte r c o me s be fo r e it, d e a l w ith w h a t ju s tifie s ta k in g - g iv in g th e c on tr ac t to Siy a n g e n a a t 1 .9 b illio n w h e n Pr o te a C o in is a t 1 .3 ? MS N G O YE: N o C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e y d o n o t? MS N G O YE: N o . C H A IR PER SO N: H o w is th a t p o s s ib le ? 10 MS N G O YE: It is n o t r e fle c te d o n th e mi n u te s . O n e w o u ld e x p e c t y o u w o u ld s e e th a t in th e min u te s b u t th e d e lib e r a tio n s d id n o t fa c to r th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: N o b o d y s a id , b u t th e d iffe r e n c e in th e p r ic e is s o v a s t? MS N G O YE: J a . C H A IR PER SO N: D o y o u k n o w w h e th er th e r e w a s a n y th in g th a t Siy a n g e n a ha d p u t in to th e d o c u men ta tio n th a t a n y b o dy co u ld o r th a t th e y s o u g h t to u s e to s a y, in c a s e s o me b o d y e ls e h a s a lo w e r p r ic e w e ll y ou w ill s till b e ju s tifie d in a w a r d in g u s th e c o n tr a c t b e c a u se o f A B C D th a t th e y d o n o t h a v e a n d , ja ? MS N G O YE: Th is w a s th e fu n d in g mo de l th a t I r e fe r r e d to C h a ir. So a s 20 p a r t o f th e ir s u b mis s io n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: R e me mb e r a t th e time PR AS A w a s s a y ing w e d o n o t e v e n h a v e mo n ey to r u n w ith th is p r o c e ss ? C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Page 72 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: So th e y p r e p a re d a fu n d in g mo d e l w h ich w o u ld th en a ss is t PR ASA in c a r r y in g o u t th is p a r tic u la r tr a ns ac tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Pr o te a C o in d id n o t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: An d w ith th a t b e n e fit th a t th e y h a d fu r n is h e d to PR ASA, th e y w e r e th e o n e s th a t w e r e c o n s id e r ed . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Be c a u s e Pr o te a C o in re a lly los e s o n th e b a s is th a t th e r e is 10 n o fu n d in g mo d e l. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: An d it- w h e n y o u th in k a b o ut it , i t d o e s ma k e s e n s e th a t PR ASA w o u ld h a v e w a n te d s o me b o d y to s u g g es t h o w w e a r e g o in g to fu n d th is th in g . Be c a u s e th e e v ide n c e tha t h a s b e e n g iv e n sh o ws th a t th e r e w a s n o b u d g e t r e a lly fo r th is s o th is fu n d in g mo d e l w o u ld h a v e a s s is te d th e o r g a n isa tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Mm. I ma y h a v e miss e d th is b u t th e fu n d in g mo d e l, a re w e g o in g to d e a l w ith it a t s o me s ta g e Mr - h o w b e n e fic ia l wa s- w h a t w as d id it h a v e r e a l v a lu e to PR ASA. 20 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w e a r lie r in y o u r a ffid a v it, y o u r s u p p le men ta r y a ffid a v it th e o n e y o u lo o k in g a t, y o u ma de th e p o in t th a t n o b o d y k n ew w h a t a fu n d in g mo d e l w a s . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 73 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w ju s t ta k in g th a t in to a c c o u n t a n d it s e e ms to h a v e p lay e d a n imp o r ta n t r o le in ma k in g th e- in h a v in g th e a w a rd ma d e to Siy a n g e n a . E ffe c tiv e ly w h a t d id th e fu n d i n g mo d e l e n ta il in r e s p e c t o f b u d g e t? Be c a u se w h a t w e se e is a t PR AS A 1 ,9 millio n r a n d a s o p p o s ed to 1 ,3 millio n r a n d b u t to w h a t e x te n d d id Siy a n g e n a fu n d a n y th in g fo r PR ASA? MS N G O YE: We ll in th e e n d it d id n o t h a p p e n C h a ir. W h e n th e w h o le p r o c es s s ta r te d it w a s c le a r th a t PR AS A d o e s n o t h a v e mo n e y to u n d e r ta ke th is p r o jec t fr o m a b u d g e ta ry p e rs p e c tive . So Siy a n g e n a th e n 10 p r o p os e d to s a y, w e w ill g iv e y o u a fu n d in g mo d e l th a t w o u ld th e n a s s is t y o u g u ys in te r ms o f c a r r y in g o u t th is p r o je c t. Bu t w h a t h a p p e n s in th e e n d is th a t th a t fu n d in g mo d e l d o e s n o t e ve n p la y a r o le in fu lfillin g th a t c o n tr ac t th a t PR A SA h a d e n te r e d in to w ith Siy a n g e n a . So th e y d id n o t g iv e mo n e y to PR ASA a s a n e x a mp le to a s s is t PR ASA w ith c a r r y in g ou t th e p r o je c t so th a t PR ASA c o u ld th e n p a y b a c k a t th e time th a t th e y h a d th e n e c e s sa r y mo n ie s . So i t w a s a p r o p o s al th a t w a s ma d e b y S iy a n g e n a r ig h t u p fr o n t. R e me mb e r th is p r o c e ss is n ot p r o p e r C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , b u t I th in k w h a t c o u n c il is a s k in g is , te ll me th e fe a tu r e s o f th is fu n d in g mo d e l th a t Siy a n g e n a p u t fo r w a r d . I th in k y o u a r e 20 ta lk in g a t- y o u ar e ta lk in g a bo u t a fte r th e c o n tr a c t h as b e e n c o nc lu d e d th a t u lti ma te ly, th e y d id n o t d e liv e r o n th e f u n d in g mo d e l. Bu t a t th e t ime th e y p u t- w h e n it w a s s imp ly a p ro p o sa l, w h a t w a s its imp o r ta n t fe a tu r e s MS N G O YE: We ll it is a r o u n d h o w th e y wo u ld a s s is t PR ASA in fu n d in g th e p r o je c t. So th e y w o u ld p a y. Th e y w o u ld e ffe c tiv e ly .. . ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: Th e y w ill p r o v is ion a lly fu nd th e p r o je c t th e ms e lv es . Page 74 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is it . An d th e n th e y w o u ld b e p a id b y PR ASA w h e n PR ASA h a s g o t th e s u ffic ie n t fu n d s . C H A IR PER SO N: Effe c tiv e ly th e y w o u ld le nd PR ASA mo n e y. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e n la te r o n w h e n PR ASA h a d mo n e y th e n PR ASA w o u ld b a s ic a lly ... ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: Pa y b a c k . C H A IR PER SO N: R e fu n d th e m. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r re c t. Be c a us e a t th a t time it w a s v e ry c le a r th a t 10 th e r e is n o mo n e y fo r th is p r o jec t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s . An d th a t is o n e o f th e is s u es . R e me mb e r Mr G u n jo h a d r a is ed it u p fr o n t th a t it h a d o n ly b e e n o n th e b u d g e t fo r th is . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s MS N G O YE: An d w h e n y o u a ls o lo ok a t the N TF a mo u n t th a t w as p u t to th e b o a r d o f 3 1 7 millio n , it is w a y le s s th a n th a t w a s r e q u ir e d fo r th is p r o je c t. C H A IR PER SO N: I ta k e it th a t in - to th e e x te n d th a t th e y p u t u p a fu n d in g mo d e l th a t is Siy a n g e n a , th a t th e y w o u ld h a v e c h a r ge d a n in te r e s t fo r th e 20 lo a n . MS N G O YE: I a m s u r e . Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . D id y o u g e t to k n o w h o w mu c h o f th e 1 .9 b ill io n a w a r d e ffe c tiv e ly h a v e b e e n in te r es t a n d h o w mu c h r e a lly w o u ld h a ve b e e n th e c a p ita l? MS N G O YE: We ll C h a ir I d o n o t th in k I w o u ld ... ( in te r v e n e s) Page 75 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u d o n o t . MS N G O YE: Ve n tu r e in to th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Bu t w h e n y o u lo o k a t w h a t th e BAC w a s s e ttle d o n , it w a s a n a mo u n t o f 1 .1 b illio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: So th a t is w h a t . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is w ith th e fu n d in g mo d e l b e in g p ar t o f th e p r o p os a l, ja . 10 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. J a . C H A IR PER SO N: So th is e x tr a 8 0 0 millio n w a s ju s t th r o w n in ? MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w h a t I th in k Mr So n i w a n te d a n d w h a t I a m in te r e s te d in is , w h a t it is in th e p r o p o s a l th a t in th is fu n d in g mo d e l th a t ma y h a v e b e e n s o a ttr a c tiv e to th e BAC me mb e r s , n o - th e FC IP me mb e r s a n d th e b o a r d th a t th e y w o u ld th in k , it is fi n e th a t 8 0 0 millio n - a d d itio n a l 8 0 0 millio n r a n d is fin e . We g o w ith Siy a n ge n a n o t w ith Pr o te a C o in . Bu t o f c o u r s e , I th in k o n e o f th e p o in ts y o u h a v e b e e n ma k in g is w ith o u t a fu n d in g mo d e l th e r e w o u ld b e n o p ro je c t. 20 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Be c a u s e PR ASA d id n o t h a v e th e mo n e y fo r th is . MS N G O YE: We d id n o t h a v e th e mo n e y. C H A IR PER SO N: So i t s e e m th e r e fo r e th a t e ith e r th e b o a r d w o u ld s a y, w e ta k e th e o n ly p a r ty th a t h a s g o t a fu n d in g mo d e l o r w e d o n o t p r o c e e d w ith th is w h o le th in g a t a ll. Page 76 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Ye s , c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: It w a s - th a t w a s th e c h o ic e . MS N G O YE: J a . Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Be c a u s e th e b a s is o n w h ic h Siy a n g e n a r e a lly is th e s u cc e ss fu l p a r ty is o n th e fu n d in g mo d e l. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Th a t is w h y I s a y w h e n y o u c o mp a r e th e p r ic e o f Pr o te a C o in w ith th a t o f Siy a n g e na , u ltima te ly th a t w a s p re s e n te d for a p pr o va l. 10 Siy a n g e n a w as mu c h h ig h e r th a n Pr o te a C o in . Th e e x p e c ta tio n th a t y o u th o u g h h a d is th e Pr o te a C o in w o u ld th e n s u c c ee d b e c a us e it w a s a t 1 .3 b illio n a n d Siy a n g e n a ’s pr ic e as r e fle c te d in th e d o c u me n ta tio n th a t w a s s e n t to th e FC IP w a s 1 .9 . So th e fu n d in g mo d e l w o u ld h a v e h e lp e d b e e n a n a d v a n ta g e th a t th e - Siy a n g e n a h ad . Bu t a ls o r e me mb e r C h a ir, th e Pr o te a C o in w a s n o t a s k ed to p r o v id e a fu n d in g mo d e l s o th e y d id n o t k n o w th a t th e y h a d to e v e n p r ov id e a fu n d in g mo d e l. Th e is s u e o f th e fu n d in g mo d e l w a s o n ly k n o wn b y Siy a n g en a. C H A IR PER SO N: O h n o , I th in k I h a v e mis s e d th a t. MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: I th o u g h t th e y w e r e a ll a s ke d . MS N G O YE: N o , Pr o te a C o in w a s n o t a w a r e th a t it h a d to p r o v id e a fu n d in g mo d e l in r e s p ec t o f its c o n tr a c t. C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e o n ly p e r s o n w h o w o u ld h a v e a n d s h o u ld h av e ma d e th e m a w a r e , w o u ld h av e b e e n Mr Mb a th a ? MS N G O YE: Th e C PO to g e th e r w ith Mr G u n jo . Page 77 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: Mr G u n jo . MS N G O YE: J a . C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e y d id n o t. MS N G O YE: N o . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : As y o u p le a s e Mr C h a ir p e rs o n . O n e o f th e th in g s th a t y o u r e fe r r e d to e a r lie r a n d I a s k e d y ou to p le a s e lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f th e s u p p le me n ta r y a ffid a v it. Yo u m i g h t r e m e m b e r y o u r e f e r r e d t o m a t t e r s th a t Mr S e b o l a h a d r a is e d . O n e o f th e is s u e s h e r a is e d is w h a t 10 w a s b e i n g c o n s i d e r e d w a s a p u b li c p r iv a te p a r t n e r s h i p . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i n r e g a r d to p u b l ic p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s h i p s I t a k e it t h a t th e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t m e c h a n i s m s o r d i ff e r e n t p r o c e d u r e s t h a t w o u ld b e f o l l o w e d if y o u a r e a s k in g f o r t h e p r iv a te s e c to r t o b e i n v o l v e d w i t h a n o r g a n o f s t a te in a p a r t ic u l a r c o n t r a c t ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f Tr e a s u r y r u l e s P R A S A is a – is a S c h e d u l e 3 B a n d ta k e f o r i n s t a n c e Tr a n s n e t is a S c h e d u l e 2B. S o is s u e s p e r t a i n i n g to p u b l ic a n d p r i v a t e p a r t n e r s h ip P P P a r e s p e c i f i e d t o t h e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s i n r e l a ti o n to e n ti t ie s fa ll i n g 20 w i t h i n t h e S c h e d u l e 2 B a s p e c t a n d n o t 3 B . Yo u k n o w s o P R A S A c o u l d n e v e r e n t e r in t o p u b lic p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s h i p s . B e c a u s e a ls o t h e p r o c e s s is v e r y t e d i o u s . I t h i n k w h e n o n e l o o k s a t t h e r e g u la t io n s fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t is n o t – is n o t a n e a s y p r o c e s s t o f o l lo w a n d i t is a p r o c e s s t h a t r e a l ly is r u n t h e n b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a lo t o f t h i n g s th a t a r e in v o lv e d i n t h a t p r o c e s s . S o P R A S A i s Page 78 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 n o t a l lo w e d t o e n t e r i n to P P P ’s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d s o i f it c h o s e S iy a n g e n a o n t h e b a s is th a t it h a d p r o v i d e d a – a f u n d i n g m o d e l i t w o u l d i n fa c t b e e n t e r i n g i n t o a s p u b lic p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s h i p . M S N G O Y E : W e ll e ff e c t iv e ly y e s y o u k n o w a n d t h a t is w h y M r S e b o la w a s c o n c e r n e d y o u k n o w. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u f in a l is e p a r a g r a p h 2 8 M s N g o y e w i t h o th e r p o i n t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e Mr S o n i s o m e b o d y w i ll n e e d t o s p e a k a b o u t 10 t h is o n t h e m o d e l a n d e v a l u a t e i t i n t e r m s o f i ts m e r i t s a n d d e m e r i ts s o t h a t o n e c a n s e e w h e t h e r t h e F C I P a n d t h e B o a r d in c o m i n g to th e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h e y s h o u l d a w a r d th e c o n tr a c t t o S iy a n g e n a a n d n o t P r o t e a C o in t h e y d i d n o th in g m o r e t h a n j u s t a c t in g o o d f a i t h o n w h a t a p p e a r e d to b e a s e n s i b l e d e c is io n to t h e m o r w h e t h e r o n e is a b l e to s a y b u t r e a ll y w i t h e a s e I s a w f e a tu r e s in t h is k i n d o f m o d e l. N o b o d y c o u l d i n g o o d f a i t h h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t th is i s t h e w a y to g o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 S o r r y M s N g o y e I a m j u s t t h e n f in a lis in g y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 8 a n d y o u s a y t h e – y o u t a l k e d a b o u t m i n u t e s b e i n g fo r g e d c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t t h a t is a b o u t? MS NGOYE: s p e a k s a b o u t. T h e s e a r e t h e m in u t e s C h a ir fr o m t h e B A C t h a t o n e Yo u k n o w t h e f a c t th a t th e B A C m i n u t e s h a d n o t b e e n s ig n e d b u t y o u t h e n h a v e a c o p y o f t h e m i n u t e s th a t a r e n o w s i g n e d a n d t h i s is o b v i o u s l y t h e a ll e g a t io n t h a t M s Ta r a N g u b a n e m a k e s t o s a y Page 79 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 lo o k I d o n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t th o s e m i n u t e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o i t is a c le a r i n d ic a ti o n th a t y o u k n o w th e r e w a s a f o r g e r y o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w e n t t o t h e X T I P. B u t a ls o i n w h a t w e h a v e s e e n i n t h e e v id e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e m i n u t e o f th e B o a r d w h e r e th e B o a r d d o e s n o t s p e c i fy a n a m o u n t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S N G O Y E : B u t t h e e x c e r p t t h a t g e ts th e n p r e p a r e d is p r e p a r e d o n t h e b a s is o f th e r e s o l u ti o n o f th e B o a r d h a v in g a p p r o v e d R 1 . 9 b i ll io n . T h is 10 is w h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o a n d t h is is t h e e v id e n c e w e w e r e a b le t o p ic k u p y o u k n o w w h e n w e d i d th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o in a d d i t io n t o th e B A C m i n u t e s b e i n g f o r g e d a s in d i c a t e d b y M s N g u b a n e th e r e is e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e r e i s a d i s c r e p a n c y b e t w e e n w h a t t h e B o a r d d e c id e d a n d t h e r e s o l u ti o n – th e w r i t te n r e s o l u ti o n ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e m in u t e s i n r e s p e c t o f th e b u d g e t w e r e s e l f- c o n t r a d ic to r y ? 20 M S N G O Y E : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I e x p l a i n e d th a t y o u k n o w s a y it i s 3 1 7 it is R 1 . 9 . I m e a n i f y o u l o o k a t i t i n t o t a li ty it d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e t h a t y o u w o u l d a p p r o v e a tr a n s a c t i o n o f R 1 .9 b i ll io n w h e n y o u h a v e o n ly a b u d g e t o f R 3 .1 7 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o I a m j u s t a s k i n g a n d p e r h a p s t h i s – t h is m a y n o t b e s o m e th i n g y o u c a n a n s w e r. Th e B o a r d a t th a t m e e t in g s a y s o r Page 80 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h e FC I P s a y s w e h a v e o n ly g o t R 3 1 7 m il l io n b u t w e a r e a c c e p t i n g th e t e n d e r f o r R 1 .9 5 b ill i o n . D i d t h e y in th a t in d i c a t e t h a t th is is b e c a u s e S iy a n g e n a h a s p r o v i d e d a f u n d in g m o d e l w h ic h a l lo w s u s t o o v e r c o m e t h e b u d g e t a r y c o n s tr a in t ? MS NGOYE: I g u e s s o n e c o u l d e x p l a i n i t t h a t w a y C h a ir i f y o u r e a ll y t h i n k a b o u t i t b e c a u s e i t ju s t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e t h a t y o u – y o u k n o w y o u r b u d g e t is a b o u t 3 . – 3 1 7 m il li o n a n d y e t y o u a p p r o v e d a t e n d e r o f R 1 . 9 y o u k n o w o n e w o u ld t h in k t h a t t h e y a ls o r e l ie d o n t h is f u n d i n g m o d e l th a t S iy a n g e n a m a k e s . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o , n o , n o I a m a s k i n g a d i ffe r e n t q u e s t io n . I a m s a y in g i n e x p l a i n in g w h y i t a c c e p t e d t h e a m o u n t o f R 1 . – a n a m o u n t o f – a c o n tr a c t o f R 1 . 9 5 b i ll i o n d i d t h e B o a r d s a y th a t n o t w i t h s ta n d i n g t h a t w e o n ly h a v e a b u d g e t o f R 3 1 7 m i ll io n th i s a ll o w s u s t o o v e r c o m e t h a t d i ff ic u l ty ? MS NGOYE: N o I – I – t h a t is n o t r e f le c t e d C h a ir – i t d o e s n o t – t h e m i n u t e s d o n o t s h o w th a t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr ig h t s o … CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u – w e l l y o u s h o u l d k n o w. W h e n w a s th e – w h e n w a s P R A S A g o i n g to b e r e q u i r e d t o p a y b a c k t h e lo a n a s i t w e r e ? 20 T h i s R 1 .9 b i ll io n l o a n w h e n it h a d w h a t R 3 0 0 a n d ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : R 3 1 7 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : R 3 1 7 m i ll io n . M S N G O Y E : W e ll C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w a n d m a y b e I s h o u l d s a y a ls o y o u k n o w fr o m a r e g u la t o r y p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 81 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : P R A S A j u s t c a n n o t g o o u t a n d r e q u e s t l o a n s o r e n t e r i n to t h o s e ty p e o f tr a n s a c ti o n s w i t h o u t th e n e c e s s a r y a p p r o v a ls b e i n g g r a n t e d b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y b e in g o n e o f t h e – t h e i n s t it u ti o n s t h a t w o u ld h a v e h a d t o c o n s id e r P R A S A y o u k n o w a s k i n g f o r a l o a n . The r e a l it y is t h a t P R A S A i s a s u b s i d is e d e n t it y o b v io u s ly g e t s i ts m o n e y fr o m y o u k n o w g o v e r n m e n t a n d i t i s – s o t h e r e w a s r e s tr ic ti o n s r e a lly around borrowings and so on. S o P R A S A w o u l d h a v e h a d t o c o m p ly. S o I d o n o t k n o w y o u k n o w w h e n a n d h o w P R A S A w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b le t o j u s ti fy t h a t lo a n t h a t i t h a d m a d e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: D i d t h e c o n tr a c t o r th e fu n d i n g m o d e l p r o v id e d n o t in d i c a t e a s to w h e n S iy a n g e n a w o u ld b e p a i d ? Because I guess that w e a r e c a l li n g it a l o a n t h e y m a y h a v e h a d a n o th e r te r m f o r i t b u t w e a r e s a y i n g e ff e c ti v e ly it is a l o a n to P R A S A . M S N G O Y E : I t i s a l o a n ja . I c a n n o t r e c o l le c t C h a ir i f – i f – b u t w e c a n c h e c k it . W e c a n c h e c k w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r w h e th e r … MS NGOYE: That was even in… CHAIRPERSON: Whether you saw it or? M S N G O Y E : N o I c a n n o t r e c a ll s e e i n g i t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I am just wondering if in terms of how long it would t a k e f o r t h e m to b e a b le t o p a y t h a t k i n d o f m o n e y if t h e y h a d R 3 0 0 a n d s o m e t h i n g m i ll io n i n t h e b u d g e t . A n d I m e a n fir s t t h e fa c t t h a t th e FC I P a n d B o a r d s a w fi t t o a p p r o v e S i y a n g e n a ’s p r ic e a t R 1 . 9 b il li o n w h e n t h e r e w a s R 1 . 3 m i ll io n fr o m … M S N G O Y E : Pr o te a C o i n . Page 82 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: P r o t e a C o i n o n t h e f a c e o f i t s a y s b u t h o w is t h a t p o s s i b le a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e y o u e x p l a in t h a t w i th o u t t h e fu n d i n g m o d e l e v e n P r o t e a C o in w o u l d n o t – e v e n i f th e y w a n t e d t o g iv e t h e c o n tr a c t t o Pr o t e a C o in t h e y – t h e y w o u l d n o t b e a b l e to b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t have the money? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y h a d to g o t o s o m e b o d y w h o – w h o w a s g o i n g t o g iv e th e m a f u n d i n g m o d e l a n d Si y a n g e n a w a s p r o v i d in g t h a t . But s t il l y o u h a v e t o – y o u h a v e t o s a y w h e n w o u l d th e y b e r e q u ir e d t o p a y ? 10 In – on what terms because it might not make sense to say you are g o i n g t o p a y t h is a m o u n t i n a y e a r s ’ t i m e , i n t w o y e a r s ’ ti m e o r w h a t e v e r I a m n o t s u r e . S o i f t h a t is t h e c a s e t h e n i t c o m p o u n d s t h e c o n fu s i o n . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u k n o w t h e q u e s t i o n s j u s t ( i n a u d i b l e ) t o s a y w h a t was going on. M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w c o u l d t h e FC I P n o t p ic k u p th is c o n u n d r u m ? MS NGOYE: Hm. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e ir s o l u ti o n t o i t ? W h a t a b o u t t h e B o a r d ? B e c a u s e b e fo r e y o u c a n a p p r o v e t h e y h a v e g o t t o s a y w h a t is my a n s w e r i f s o m e b o d y s a y s h o w a r e y o u g o i n g to p a y t h is b a c k ? Yo u m u s t b e a b l e to s a y, t h i s is o u r a n s w e r a n d i t i s d o a b l e . M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. I g u e s s w e ll w e c a n f in d th e d o c u m e n t C h a r i. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 83 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : Fr o m t h e m o d e l . CHAIRPERSON: Ja we… M S N G O Y E : T h e r e i s a lo t o f p a p e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s i n v o l v e d i n th is ( in d i s ti n c t) . CHAIRPERSON: J a w e n e e d t o l o o k a t th a t b e c a u s e o n e n e e d s t o k n o w w h e t h e r to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y b e w r o n g t h i n g s th a t m a y have happened one needs to know who was – who may have been in v o lv e d . In w h a t w a y. W a s it n e g li g e n c e ? W a s it in c o m p e t e n c e ? O r 10 w a s i t i n te n ti o n a l ? W a s i t c r i m i n a l ? M S N G O Y E : B u t C h a ir w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e – h o w t h e m a t t e r u n f o l d e d and how the payments were made you know monies was coming out of P R A S A t o p a y t h is . S o e ff e c t iv e l y y o u k n o w i n r e l a ti o n to t h is fi r s t p h a s e o f t h e p r o j e c t P R A S A h a d p a i d a s u b s t a n t ia l a m o u n t o f m o n e y o u t o f i ts o w n c o ffe r s t o S iy a n g e n a . S o t h e n w h e n y o u l o o k a t i t r e a lly a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y t h i s f u n d in g m o d e l d i d n o t e v e n b e n e fi t P R A S A b e c a u s e i t s t il l p a i d y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e t h a t m i g h t n o t a ffe c t t h e B o a r d . M S N G O Y E : N o th a t i s c o r r e c t. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a s s u m e i t m ig h t a ff e c t t h e m a n a g e m e n t . MS NGOYE: The management ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o – w h o m a d e t h o s e p a y m e n ts . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t h a t w a s P h a s e 1 o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d w a s th a t Page 84 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h e e n d o f P h a s e 1 o r w h e r e – w a s t h e r e a n o t h e r tw is t to P h a s e 1 ? MS NGOYE: T h e r e w a s a n o t h e r tw is t to P h a s e 1 C h a ir. So Phase 1 w a s t h e n e x t e n d e d a g a i n w h e r e fr o m 6 9 t w e lv e m o r e s t a ti o n s w e r e th e n in c l u d e d . S o e ffe c tiv e ly Si y a n g e n a j u s t g o t g i v e n t w e lv e m o r e s ta t io n s t o s a y a d d o n . A n d t h e b a t a s w e ll th e e x p e c ta t io n w o u l d b e y o u n e e d t o fo ll o w p r o c e d u r e y o u k n o w i t ( i n d is ti n c t ) . It w a s j u s t a n a d d i ti o n t o t h e 6 9 t h a t i t h a d a lr e a d y h a d . S o o n c e a g a i n y o u c a n s a f e ly s e e th a t w e w e r e n o t d o i n g t h i n g s i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h h o w t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o be done. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d j u s t to il l u s tr a t e t h e – th e g r o w t h o f t h e – t h e c o n tr a c t. I t s t a r ts o ff w it h t w o w h e r e S iy a n g e n a is a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r. I t t h e n e n d s u p w i th s e v e n a s th e m a i n c o n t r a c t o r. T h e r e i s b e c o m e s 6 9 a n d n o w w i t h t h is e x te n s io n i t b e c o m e s 8 1 . M S N G O Y E : I t is 6 9 p l u s 1 2 – 7 0 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 8 1 . MS NGOYE: Is it? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s 6 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I a m n o t c o u n ti n g s o I a m l o o k in g a t 9 2 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t i s 8 1 C h a ir. 20 M S N G O Y E : O k a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 81? M S N G O Y E : I t is 8 1 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is 8 1 . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h o w m u c h d i d t h is – t h e s e t w e lv e a d d it i o n a l Page 85 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 s t a ti o n s o r – j a d i d th e y c o s t P R A S A ? M S N G O Y E : I t w a s R 3 5 0 m i ll io n C h a ir f o r t h e a d d it i o n a l t w e lv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t o n to p o f t h e R 1 .9 b il li o n ? MS NGOYE: R 1 .9 b i ll i o n . CHAIRPERSON: So it now becomes about R2.2? M S N G O Y E : R 2 . – ja . R 2 . 2 b il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: J a . W h e n i t w a s – w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t w a s o r i g i n a l ly g iv e n t o t h e e n ti ty t o w h i c h S i y a n g e n a w a s t h e s u b - c o n tr a c t o r h o w m u c h w a s t h e p r ic e th e n ? 10 M S N G O Y E : I ju s t ( i n d is t in c t ) b e c a u s e i t w a s t w o s t a t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: A t t h e ti m e y o u k n o w th e a m o u n t w o u l d n o t e v e n h a v e been… CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly w h a t t h e a m o u n t w a s b u t i t w a s n o t ( C h a i r s p e a k in g o v e r Ms N g o y e ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t w a s t w o s t a ti o n s ja ? M S N G O Y E : I t w a s o n ly t w o s t a ti o n s t h a t w e r e r e q u i r e d t o b e d o n e a t t h e ti m e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y n o t h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i n r e g a r d t o t h i s e x t e n s i o n y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t i t w a s – th a t th e r e w a s a n ir r e g u la r i t y a n d c o u l d y o u id e n t i fy th a t Page 86 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 ir r e g u l a r i ty ? M S N G O Y E : I t i s a r o u n d t h e p r o c e d u r e C h a ir. Yo u d o n o t j u s t e x t e n d . E v e n i f th e r e w a s a t e n d e r s a y y o u d o n o t e x t e n d t h e s c o p e o f t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h o u t fo ll o w i n g p r o c e s s a g a in . S o y o u k n o w n a t u r a lly i t j u s t d o e s n o t w o r k l ik e th a t . Yo u h a v e to – if y o u w a n t to e x t e n d t h e s c o p e o f t h e c o n tr a c t y o u w o u l d h a v e t o t a k e i t o u t to t e n d e r a g a i n . S o t h i s was not – this was not done. CHAIRPERSON: N o a ll o f t h e s e e x te n s i o n s i n v o lv e d i n – t h a t w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t h e r e w o u l d th e y h a v e b e e n s p o n s o r e d a s it w e r e b y t h e 10 C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r ? M S N G O Y E : H e w a s p a r t o f it C h a ir. S o h e w o u l d h a v e … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s p a r t o f i t? MS NGOYE: S o h e w a s p a r t – s o e ff e c tiv e ly b e t w e e n t h e C h ie f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r a n d t h e G r o u p C E O . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS NGOYE: Yo u k n o w a ll t h e s e t h i n g s w o u ld b e s p o n s o r e d a n d t h e y w o u ld h a v e t o b e d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o it w o u l d b e i t i s e i t h e r b o th o r o n e o f t h e m ? MS NGOYE: It had to be both. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja it had to be both. M S N G O Y E : B e c a u s e – th a t is i t C h a ir y e s . CHAIRPERSON: c o n tr a c ts O k a y. A n d – a n d a t t h e t i m e – a t t h e t i m e o f t h e s e – t h e s e e x te n s io n s you were not yet Head D e p a r t m e n t? M S N G O Y E : N o I w a s a t I n t e r s it e C h a ir. Page 87 of 211 of Legal 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a t I n te r s i t e ? M S N G O Y E : A t I n te r s i t e j a . CHAIRPERSON: How long had you been with PRASA at the time with Intersite PRASA? M S N G O Y E : I n t e r s it e I w a s a t 2 0 11 u n til 2 0 1 4 – A u g u s t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : A n d th e n I w e n t a c r o s s t o P R A S A . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n d i d y o u c o m e t o P R A S A f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e ? M S N G O Y E : P R A S A is in t h e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : P R A S A i n c lu d i n g In t e r s i t e ? M S N G O Y E : 2 0 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S N G O Y E : B u t I w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n in v o l v e d b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d ? M S N G O Y E : A n d a ls o a t t h e ti m e C h a ir I n te r s i t e w a s n o l o n g e r d o i n g w h a t th e p r e v i o u s In t e r s i te w a s d o in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 M S N G O Y E : S o i n t h is – in m y c a s e I n t e r s i te w a s a n a s s e t i n v e s t m e n t c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : A n d th e f o c u s w a s d i ff e r e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is f in e . D o y o u k n o w h o w lo n g M r M b a t h a h a d b e e n a t P R A S A a r o u n d t h is ti m e ? Page 88 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: W e ll if I r e c a ll C h a ir I m e a n th e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n Mr M b a th a i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e h a d b e e n a t P R A S A f o r m o r e th a n 2 0 y e a r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : J a . S o h e h a d b e e n a t P R A S A f o r a lo n g t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: A n d a t th e – d o y o u k n o w h o w lo n g h e h a d b e e n P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r a s a t t h a t – t h is t i m e ? M S N G O Y E : N o I w o u l d n o t k n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ? M S N G O Y E : I d o n o t k n o w. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y I m e a n h i m b e in g C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r h e m u s t h a v e k n o w n w h a t p r o c e d u r e is r e q u ir e d . MS NGOYE: Of course. CHAIRPERSON: O r r e q u ir e d to b e f o ll o w e d i f t h e y w e r e t o b e extensions? M S N G O Y E : O f c o u r s e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d t h e – a n d t h e C E O w o u ld h a v e k n o w n a ls o ? MS NGOYE: Of course. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t fi n a ll y o n t h e e x t e n s i o n i f n o p r o c e s s h a d b e e n f o ll o w e d w o u l d i t h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h e B E C , B A C a n d th e F C I P ? MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir. Yo u k n o w I m e a n t h is w a s j u s t a n a d d i ti o n a l t w e lv e s t a ti o n s t o – t o S i y a n g e n a . If it went back Chair there would o b v i o u s l y b e – h a v e b e e n y o u k n o w c o n c e r n s t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n Page 89 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 raised you know by the – by the BAC and the DEC again. have been you know e s p e c i a l ly where the BAC is It s h o u l d concerned c o n s i d e r in g th a t th e y h a v e n o t a p p r o v e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m lo o k i n g a t M r S o n i I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r i t is w h a t h e w a s lo o k in g f o r i t – j u s t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . What I would lik e to k n o w is w h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p r o c e s s ? MS NGOYE: The procedure. C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e f o l lo w e d i f t h e r e w a s to b e a n e x te n s io n ? MS NGOYE: 10 W e ll i f t h e r e w a s t o b e a n e x t e n s i o n C h a ir o f – o f t h e c o n tr a c t a g a i n w e ta lk t o th e s c o p e in c r e a s e y o u k n o w a n d th is is s u e i s a ls o r e g u la t e d b y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y to s a y y o u c a n n o t v a r y t h e c o n tr a c t a n d i n c r e a s e th e s c o p e t o m o r e t h a n a p a r t ic u l a r p e r c e n t a g e o f t h e c o n tr a c t. S o o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e h a d t o g o b a c k to t h e B A C a n d th e n t o th e S C I P f o r c o n s i d e r a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d i t n o t h a v e b e e n n e c e s s a r y to – to is s u e a r e q u e s t f o r i ts – i n o t h e r w o r d s s t a r t r i g h t f r o m t h e b e g i n n in g . M S N G O Y E : T h a t to o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Because… MS NGOYE: 20 Yo u d o n o t k n o w if … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d h a v e a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e y o u d e c i d e to g iv e t h e c o n tr a c t i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r tr a i n s ta t io n s t o a s k s o m e b o d y. M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And – and if you do not invite other people you – you a r e d e n y i n g th e m a n o p p o r tu n i t y to b i d f o r t h o s e tr a i n s ta t io n s a n d y o u d o i t b y s a y i n g w e a r e j u s t e x t e n d in g th is e x is ti n g o n e . Page 90 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. Th e v a l u e o f th e e x t e n s i o n C h a ir w o u l d p l a y a r o l e a s t o w h e th e r th e m a t te r g o e s b a c k t o p r o c u r e m e n t – a p r o c e s s to a d v e r t is in g o r n o t . S o … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MS NGOYE: B e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f – i n t e r m s o f t h e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : I f I r e c a ll I t h i n k t h e p e r c e n t a g e is i n c r e a s e d n o w t o 1 5 % . S o if a t th e ti m e i t w a s m o r e t h a n 1 0 % o f t h e v a lu e o f t h e c o n t r a c t t h e 10 v a r ia t io n t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e t o g o o u t t o te n d e r. S o t h a t – th e c o n tr a c t v a l u e a n d w h a t i t is th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a i d h e r e w o u l d determine. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : W h e t h e r t h a t p r o c e s s w o u l d h a v e t o b e fo ll o w e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : S o i t d e p e n d e d ( in a u d i b l e ) . CHAIRPERSON: No, no that does make sense because you do not w a n t to in v i t e t o o m u c h f o r a v e r y s m a l l. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Amount in value but once the value goes beyond a c e r t a i n a m o u n t y o u m ig h t t h e n b e j u s t i fi e d in s a y i n g l e t u s h e a r w h a t o th e r p e o p l e c a n t e n d e r. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d f o r th e r e c o r d th e a m o u n t b e in g R 3 5 0 m il li o n w o u ld b e e x a c tly m o r e t h a n 1 0 % o f t h e R 2 b il li o n o r a l m o s t R 2 b il li o n Page 91 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 e x t e n s i o n c o n – P h a s e 1 c o n tr a c t ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y j u s t o n th a t s c o r e M s N g o y e th e R 3 5 0 m il li o n w o u l d th a t n o t h a v e h a d t o h a v e B o a r d a p p r o v a l g iv e n t h a t Mr M o n ta n a c o u l d o n l y c o n tr a c t u p t o R 1 0 0 m i lli o n ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Mr M o n t a n a ’s a u t h o r i ty i n te r ms o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r i t y w a s l i m i te d t o R 1 0 0 m i ll io n . I t w o u l d h a d y o u k n o w t h in g s d o n e p r o p e r ly a n d g o n e to t h e – t o th e B o a r d f o r approval. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t fr o m w h a t y o u k n o w d i d th is e x te n s io n d i d n o t go to the Board? M S N G O Y E : N o i t d i d n o t g o t o t h e B o a r d C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o t h a t w o u ld b e a f u r th e r b a s is t o i m p u g n r e a lly t h e a w a r d o f t h e e x t e n s i o n to S iy a n g e n a ? MS NGOYE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I mean if you look at how things w e r e d o n e y o u k n o w i t w a s li k e d o e s it m a t t e r ? L e t u s g o a h e a d a n d d o it . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n r e f le c t e d i n t h e f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n t o f P R A S A a t t h e e n d o f t h a t y e a r t h a t i s s a y 2 0 11 / 1 2 ? 20 M S N G O Y E : S o r r y w h a t r e fl e c ts i t? W h a t is i t r e f l e c ti n g ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th e a m o u n t o f t h e e x t e n s i o n o r t h e a m o u n t o f th e c o n tr a c t? M S N G O Y E : I d o n o t w a n t t o v e n t u r e in t o t h a t C h a ir b e c a u s e I a m n o t s u r e . I h a v e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly l o o k e d a t t h e – th e f in a n c ia ls s o I d id n o t w a n t to s a y y e s t h e y w e r e . I c a n n o t r e c a ll if t h e a m o u n t w a s r e fl e c t e d . Page 92 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : I s u p p o s e w h a t w e w o u l d h a v e t o d o is t o l o o k a t t h e – t h e f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts a n d s e e w h e t h e r i n f a c t t h e s e m a t t e r s a r e r e f le c t e d a s s e t o u t in y o u r a ffi d a v i t ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n Ms N g o y e y o u g o i n to P h a s e 2 o f th e p r o j e c t. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n I s e e i t is f iv e t o o n e . I a m n o t s u r e w e w il l fi n i s h t h is i n t h e n e x t f iv e m in u t e s . I d o n o t m i n d c o n t i n u in g but… 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o I t h i n k – I t h i n k I m a y h a v e t h o u g h t th a t w e w o u ld b e a b l e to fi n is h w i th h e r b e fo r e lu n c h b u t I t h i n k w e – w e h a v e b e e n d o in g w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A b s o lu t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e w i ll h a v e t o c o m e b a c k a f t e r l u n c h . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s i t p l e a s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c o n ti n u e a n d fi n i s h . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay so I think let us take the lunch adjournment a n d w e w i ll c o m e b a c k a t t w o . W e a d j o u r n . 20 R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: O k a y l e t ’s c o n t in u e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s y o u p le a s e C h a ir p e r s o n . Ms Ngoye we’d fi n i s h e d n o w w i t h p h a s e o n e a n d t h e e x te n s i o n t o i t a n d w e w e r e g o i n g Page 93 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t o s ta r t w i t h p h a s e t w o , y o u r e m e m b e r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W il l y o u t e l l u s w h a t – w e l l w il l y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t p h a s e tw o i s a b o u t ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir p e r s o n , p h a s e t w o is a b o u t a n o th e r a w a r d , t h is t i m e t h e n u m b e r o f s t a ti o n s w a s 1 6 1 n u m b e r o f s t a t i o n s t h a t w e r e a w a r d e d t o S iy a n g e n a . S o p h a s e tw o d e a l s w it h t h e p r o c e s s t o a p p o i n t S iy a n g e n a , u l t i m a te ly, a s t h e p r e f e r r e d b id d e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS NGOYE: 1 6 1 S t a t io n s t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: T h is is s e p a r a t e fr o m p h a s e o n e ? S e p a r a te fr o m p h a s e o n e . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: So the number was 161? A n d i t ’s a l s o f o r S iy a n g e n a ? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u r e m e m b e r t h a t w e s a i d th a t t h e e a r l ie r p h a s e s i n c l u d i n g p h a s e o n e a n d a l l t h e e x t e n s i o n s b r o u g h t t o 8 1 , t h a t ’s 1 6 1 y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t is a n o t h e r 8 0 o r a n o t h e r 1 6 1 ? MS 20 NGOYE: I t ’s 161 separate from what S iy a n g e n a had b e e n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s o p h a s e o n e h a s g o t i t s o w n tr a i n s t a t i o n s , p h a s e t w o h a s i ts o w n tr a i n s t a ti o n s ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w a s i t a s m o o th p r o c e s s , t h e a w a r d in Page 94 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 respect of phase two? MS NGOYE: I t w a s a l s o n o t a s m o o th p r o c e s s C h a ir, h o w e v e r, i n r e s p e c t o f p h a s e t w o a t l e a s t t h is t i m e w e h a d a R F P t h a t w a s is s u e d a s p a r t o f t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s , s o t h e s t a r t i n g p o in t , I s u p p o s e w a s , y o u k n o w, k o s h e r i n t e r m s o f h o w t h i n g s a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e d o n e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: A n d w a s it a fa ir p r o c e s s ? No once again, it was not a fair process Chairperson b e c a u s e i n s t e a d o f P R A S A , i n i ts r e q u e s t , f o r s u p p li e r s to te n d e r a s k in g fo r f u n c ti o n a li ty i t s p e c i f ie d a p a r ti c u l a r b r a n d th a t t h e s u p p l ie r s 10 o r t h e b id d e r s w o u l d h a v e h a d t o c o m p ly w i t h o r b e a b le t o s u p p o r t a n d t h a t p a r t ic u l a r b r a n d w a s a b r a n d o n ly a s s o c i a t e d w i t h S iy a n g e n a . CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d l e t m e ju s t a s k t h is q u e s t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o p h a s e o n e . S u c h n o n - c o m p li a n c e s a s w e m a y fi n d i n p h a s e o n e w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s w o u l d t h e r e b e a n y b a s i s fo r a n y o ffic i a l w i t h i n P R A S A w h o w a s i n v o l v e d i n m a k i n g a n y d e c is io n t o s a y, it w a s j u s t n e g l i g e n c e , I d id n ’ t p a y a t t e n t io n b u t i t w a s n o t d e l ib e r a t e ? MS NGOYE: I f i n d it d i ffic u lt C h a ir p e r s o n f o r a n y b o d y t o s a y t h a t , th e p r o c e s s e s a r e c l e a r, w e h a d a s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t, y o u k n o w p o li c y t h a t r e q u ir e d u s t o d o t h i n g s i n a p a r t ic u l a r w a y a n d a n y b o d y, 20 e s p e c i a l ly i n th a t a r e a , b e c a u s e i t w a s a p r o c u r e m e n t a r e a , w o u ld t h e n w a n t to c o m e a n d s a y, y o u k n o w w e ’r e n e g li g e n t , w o u l d n o t b e tr u th f u l . CHAIRPERSON: A n d – s o a r e y o u i n a p o s i ti o n to s a y a n y n o n - c o m p li a n c e is – w h e r e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s is a r e q u ir e m e n t u n d e r p h a s e o n e , c o u l d o n l y h a v e b e e n i n t e n ti o n a l a n d d e li b e r a t e ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 95 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M a y I fo ll o w u p o n th a t , y o u a n s w e r is a n e m p h a t ic , n o i t c o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n n o n - d e l ib e r a te , y o u ’r e e m p h a tic i t was deliberate? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w is – d o y o u s a y t h a t o n a c c o u n t o f th e v a r io u s i r r e g u l a r i ti e s t o g e t h e r w i th th e n a t u r e o f t h e ir r e g u l a r i ti e s o r is t h e r e s o m e o th e r b a s is o n w h i c h y o u ’ r e m a k in g t h a t a s s e r ti o n ? MS NGOYE: 10 I t ’s a ll th e [i n d is ti n c t ] t h a t r e a l ly w e r e p r e s e n t C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u k n o w, t h e s i m p l e i s s u e o f s a y i n g p u t s o m e t h i n g o u t t o t e n d e r a n d le t it b e c o m p e te d u p o n p r o p e r l y, w e a l l u n d e r s t a n d , y o u k n o w, a s a S t a t e o w n e d e n t i ty a n d o u r g o v e r n a n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t w e s h o u ld d o in r e l a ti o n t o t e n d e r s , S e c ti o n 2 1 7 , n o - o n e c a n s a y w h o w o r k s f o r a S t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e , t h a t th e y d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f S e c ti o n 2 1 7 , f a ir p r o c e s s e s , e q u i t a b l e a n d s o o n . Yo u c a n ’ t s a y t h a t, y o u k n o w, s o i f y o u d e c i d e t o th e n h a v e a p r o c e s s t h a t d o e s n o t c o m p l y w i th t h a t w h ic h is r i g g e d , i n m y o p i n io n , y o u k n o w, t h e n c le a r ly y o u k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t y o u ’r e d o i n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 A n d i f y o u l o o k a t a l l t h e s e c o n tr a c ts a n d t h e e x t e n s i o n s s t a r t in g w i th t h e fir s t – w e l l a f t e r t h e fi r s t t w o t o E n z o a n d R a i n b o w w a s t h e r e a n y o p e n p r o c e s s t h a t w a s fo ll o w e d th r o u g h o u t t h e phase one aspect. MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir, t h e r e w a s n ’ t , t h e r e w a s n o R F P is s u e d , y o u k n o w, t h e r e w a s n o o p e n t e n d e r is s u e d . E v e n w h e n , y o u k n o w, th o s e e i g h t s u p p l ie r s w e r e c a l le d i n to t h a t m e e ti n g , w h e n th e y t h e m s e l v e s Page 96 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 asked for a RFP we couldn’t produce one. We then said to them, d e v e l o p s o m e t h in g th a t w o u ld w o r k f o r P R A S A , y o u k n o w, h o w d o e s o n e e x p l a i n th a t a n y f u r t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: I’ v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e in r e g a r d t o o t h e r p a r a s t a t a ls w h e r e i t w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t s o m e b o d y w o u l d s a y – w e l l I d id n ’ t fo ll o w t h is p r o c e d u r e b e c a u s e th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o v is i o n s a n d t h e S u p p ly C h a in Management P o li c y p e r m i ts that we don’t follow these p r o c e d u r e s u n d e r c e r t a i n c ir c u ms t a n c e s a n d t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a r e A , B , C , D , E a n d i n my v ie w t h is w a s a n A o r B o r C s i t u a t io n b u t t h o s e 10 w h o l o o k a t t h e w h o le t h i n g a n d s a y, n o it w a s li k e s e l f c r e a t e d u r g e n c y o r th e y s a y, w e l l th e r e i s j u s t n o w a y a n y b o d y c o u ld h a v e s a i d t h is fi ts in t o th is s i tu a ti o n b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s t h e y a r e a b l e t o p u t u p s o m e t h in g , w h e t h e r y o u b e l ie v e i t o r n o t is a n o t h e r th in g . Ar e y o u a w a r e o f a n y th in g t h a t th o s e w h o m a y n o t h a v e c o m p l ie d w i t h c e r ta in p r o c e d u r e s in r e l a ti o n to p h a s e o n e t h a t t h e y a r e p u t t in g u p o r h a v e p u t u p i n t h e p a s t t o tr y a n d j u s t i fy w h y t h e y d i d n ’ t c o m p ly ? MS NGOYE: N o C h a i r th e r e w a s j u s t n o j u s ti f ic a t i o n a n d t h e r e w a s n o t e v e n u r g e n c y, y o u k n o w, a t le a s t i n t h e c a s e o f u r g e n c y y o u w o u l d s a y, lo o k w e h a d t o d e a l w it h t h i n g s v e r y q u i c k ly a n d t h e r e f o r e w e h a d t o – 20 t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic y w o u ld h a v e p r o v i d e d f o r t h a t b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t, y o u k n o w, t h e w o r k t h a t w a s d o n e y o u c a n ’ t a c t u a l ly r e a d u r g e n c y t o t h a t y o u c a n ’t e v e n a t tr i b u te t h e f a c t th a t t h is p a r tic u la r c o m p a n y w a s a s o l e s u p p li e r w a s a s i n g l e s o u r c e , y o u k n o w w h e r e in t e r m s o f t h e p o li c y y o u w o u l d b e a b l e t o d o c e r ta in t h i n g s a n d j u s t i fy i t . In th is r e s p e c t y o u k n o w, th e f a c t t h a t, in t h e p h a s e o n e p r o c e s s y o u i n v i te d Page 97 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 e i g h t s u p p li e r s t o c o m e in . I t ’s a c l e a r i n d ic a ti o n t h a t y o u a p p r e c i a te t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e c o m p e ti t o r s o u t t h e r e w h o w o u l d w a n t t o p a r tic ip a t e in a n o p e n t e n d e r p r o c e s s . S o I c a n ’ t s e e a n y ju s ti fi c a t io n fr o m a n y o n e w i t h i n P R A S A w h o w o u ld b e a b le t o th e n s a y, y e s w e h a d to d o th is b e c a u s e o f u r g e n c y b e c a u s e S i y a n g e n a , f o r i n s t a n c e is a s o le s u p p l ie r a n d s o l e s o u r c e th e r e w a s ju s t n o j u s ti f ic a t io n fo r t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: In r e g a r d t o p h a s e o n e a n d a s p e c i a l r e f e r e n c e t o th e v a r io u s e x t e n s i o n s w o u l d t h e m a i n p e o p l e b e Mr M o n t a n a a n d M r M b a th a . 10 MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: S h o u l d t h e y h a v e m a d e s u r e th e r e w a s c o m p li a n c e ? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d i n r e g a r d t o Mr M b a th a a r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y o p p o r t u n i ty w h e r e h e h a s – a n y o c c a s io n w h e r e h e h a s h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty to p u t u p a j u s t i fic a ti o n , i f h e h a s o n e ? MS NGOYE: N o I’ m n o t a w a r e C h a ir M r M b a t h a … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u ’r e n o w a w a r e , n o b o d y c o n fr o n t e d h i m o r a n y th in g ? MS NGOYE: 20 W e ll w e d id C h a ir, t h e o r g a n is a t i o n d i d a s p a r t o f th e p r o c e s s o f d e a l in g w i t h c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t a n d s u b je c t i n g M r M b a th a t o a d i s c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s , t h a t p r o c e s s w a s n o t c o m p le t e d to h a v e a l l o w e d h i m to p u t t h a t j u s t i fic a ti o n f o r w a r d . In f a c t , I g u e s s b e c a u s e o f o th e r is s u e s a n d t h e r e a s o n s h e g a v e f o r n o t b e i n g a b le t o a tt e n d t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s , y o u k n o w. A n u n f a v o u r a b l e j u d g e m e n t w a s b e i n g t a k e n a g a i n s t h i m b e c a u s e h e d i d n ’ t p r e s e n t h i ms e lf t o t h e Page 98 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 h e a r in g so one would n o t, then understand, what Mr M b a th a … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: B u t i f h e w a n t e d t o p u t u p h is j u s ti f ic a t i o n , t h a t w a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty. MS NGOYE: C o r r e c t C h a ir CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 10 Ye s , w h a t a b o u t M r M o n t a n a ? W e l l M r M o n ta n a w a s o u t o f t h e p i c t u r e a t t h e t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: H e m ig h t h a v e e l e c t e d n o t t o u s e i t. J a h e w a s o u t ja . Ja. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t , b u t t h e o n e t h i n g y o u a r e s u r e o f is t h e n o n - c o m p li a n c e s t h a t y o u h a v e p o i n te d o u t i n r e l a ti o n t o p h a s e o n e , c o u l d n e v e r h a v e b e e n b a s e d o n n e g l i g e n c e o r i g n o r a n c e o f th e r e q u ir e m e n t s , t h e y w e r e d e li b e r a t e ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d j u s t f in a lly i f I c o u ld fo ll o w u p o n w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s p o i n t e d o u t , th e p h a s e o n e i n c l u d in g th e p i lo t p h a s e 20 in v o lv e d a m o u n t s e x c e e d i n g R 2 b i ll io n ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : As I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e , t h e o n ly p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d – n o t t h e d e c i s i o n m a k i n g p r o c e s s , th e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o ll o w e d w a s t h o s e e ig h t p e o p l e b e i n g i n v i te d ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e e ig h t p e o p l e t h a t h a d b e e n Page 99 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 in v i te d , b u t o n c e a g a i n , I s t il l c o n te n d t h a t i t w a s j u s t s e le c ti n g e i g h t p e o p l e a n d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly p u t t in g i t o u t, y o u k n o w, a s a t e n d e r process. CHAIRPERSON: S o a c tu a lly w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d w a s t o p u t t h e w h o l e t h i n g o u t t o te n d e r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: It was not done? N o i t w a s n o t d o n e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Th e s i tu a ti o n – the procurement p o l ic y, th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o v i s i o n s d id n o t r e q u ir e t h a t y o u j u s t p ic k a n d c h o o s e w h o e v e r y o u w a n t t o i n v it e ? MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir n o t i n th is c ir c u m s t a n c e , y o u k n o w, t h e r e m i g h t b e o th e r c ir c u m s t a n c e s b u t n o t t h is o n e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d j u s t t o f in a lis e t h e p o in t , t h a t w a s t h e o n l y d e c is i o n in w h ic h t h e B E C a n d t h e B A C p l a y e d t h e ir r o le ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 20 A n d t h e FC I P ? A n d th e F C I P y e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o a l l t h e o t h e r d e c is i o n s a n d a l l t h e o t h e r c o n tr a c t – o r th e c o n tr a c t s t h a t w e c o n c lu d e d w e r e d o n e b y P R A S A o ffic i a ls w i t h o u t a n y o f t h is b e i n g s u b j e c t t o s o m e s c r u ti n y ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w y o u s p o k e – y o u r e f e r r e d to t h e a m o u n t s h a v i n g b e e n a b o v e Mr M o n t a n a ’s d e le g a te d a u t h o r it y, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 100 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: I n r e g a r d to t h e e x t e n s i o n s ? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d is t h a t th e p o s i ti o n w i t h r e g a r d t o a l l t h e e x t e n s i o n s t h a t a r e i n v o lv e d in p h a s e o n e t h a t h e w a s i n v o lv e d in ? MS NGOYE: T h e – a l l th e a m o u n ts w a s a b o v e h is d e le g a ti o n s – a ll th e a m o u n ts i n r e l a ti o n t o p h a s e o n e a n d t h e e x t e n s i o n t h e r e o f w a s a b o v e h is d e l e g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS NGOYE: A ll t h e a m o u n ts . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A n d y o u s a i d h is l i m i t w a s R 1 0 0 m il li o n ? R 1 0 0 m i ll io n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A l l t h e a m o u n ts ? S o o b v io u s ly t h e y w e r e f a r a b o v e th a t? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d o n c e a g a i n th a t c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n o u t o f o v e r s ig h t , h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n h i s l i mi t ? MS NGOYE: 20 Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i f h e a p p r o v e d th is e x te n s i o n s , h e d id s o k n o w i n g t h a t h e w a s a c ti n g o u ts id e o f h i s d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w in r e la t io n t o p h a s e t w o n o w, y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e w a s a R F P b u t th e c o m p l a i n t m a d e w a s t h a t th e y h a d a s k e d fo r Page 101 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 certain brands of equipment to be used? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: q u e s t io n . A n d … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . I’ m s o r r y Mr S o n i, p l e a s e d o n ’ t fo r g e t y o u r n e x t I n t e r m s o f t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P o l ic y a n d i n t e r m s o f o t h e r in s t r u m e n ts a n d p r e s c r ip ts a s y o u k n o w t h e m a t P R A S A a r e th e r e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h i c h t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r w o u ld b e – o r w a s a u th o r is e d t o e x c e e d h is d e le g a te d a u t h o r i ty o n c e r t a i n c o n d it i o n s ? 10 MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir t h e r e w e r e n o n e . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: N o t a t a l l. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: N o t a t a l l? Ye s . If t h e r e w a s a n y th in g a b o v e h is d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i t y, e v e n i n te r ms o f s i g n in g o f c o n t r a c t s t h a t a r e a b o v e h is d e l e g a t i o n o f a u t h o r i ty h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n th a t p e r m is s io n b y th e B o a r d , t o s a y, w e th e n a u t h o r is e y o u G r o u p C E O t o t h e n e n t e r i n t o t h i s c o n tr a c t a ft e r t h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e , o b v i o u s l y, c o n s i d e r e d t h e i s s u e s a n d h a v e h a d s u p p o r te d t h e s u b m is s i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e t o i t b u t o t h e r w is e h e 20 ju s t w o u ld n ’t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: No. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , it w o u l d n ’ t h a p p e n . He would have to refer that to the Board? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Now in respect of the fact that certain brands had Page 102 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 b e e n id e n ti fi e d t o b e u s e d t o c o m p ly w it h t h e t e n d e r r e q u ir e m e n ts , w h a t is P R A S A’s p o li c y ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir o u r p o l ic y, y o u k n o w, d o e s n o t s u p p o r t t h e m e n ti o n i n g o f b r a n d s w h e n w e g o o u t i n t o t h e p u b l ic r e q u e s t in g f o r t e n d e r s to b e – f o r p e o p le to p a r t ic ip a t e i n o u r t e n d e r s . S o t h a t i s s u e is n o t t h e r e , y o u c a n ’ t m e n ti o n a b r a n d i n a te n d e r p r o c e s s b e c a u s e t h e n i t m a k e s i t u n - c o m p e ti t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t m e n ti o n i n g , y o u m e a n , i n t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u i s s u e t o t h e p u b l ic ? 10 MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, y o u c a n ’ t s p e c i fy a b r a n d . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , y e s y o u c a n j u s t s p e c i f y w h a t y o u n e e d . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t n o t a b r a n d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w a s t h is a c o m p l a i n t t h a t w a s m a d e b y a n y o f the tenderers? MS NGOYE: Ye s it w a s C h a ir, in fa c t , t w o o f t h e b i d d e r s , y o u k n o w, h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h i t b e c a u s e t h e b r a n d s t h a t w e r e s p e c i fi e d f a v o u r e d S iy a n g e n a t o t h e d e tr i m e n t o f t h e o t h e r b id d e r s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 N o w w h e n y o u s a y t h e b r a n d s – th o s e b r a n d s w e r e id e n ti fi e d i n t h e R F P. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i n r e s p e c t o f f a v o u r i n g S iy a n g e n a , w h y d o y o u s a y th a t t h e u s e o f t h a t b r a n d w o u l d f a v o u r S iy a n g e n a ? MS NGOYE: C h a ir t h e w a y t h i s p r o c e s s s t a r te d , i n f a c t , w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s a n u n s o lic i te d p r o p o s a l , e ff e c t iv e l y, t h a t w a s m a d e b y S iy a n g e n a i n Page 103 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 r e l a ti o n t o p h a s e t w o . S o i n t h e r e i t w a s v e r y c le a r th a t t h e ir b r a n d s a r e th e b r a n d s th a t s u p p o r t t h e B a b y lo n a n d D e l m a y a s y s t e m a n d t h a t w a s th e n , w h a t w a s u s e d e ff e c ti v e ly, y o u k n o w, t o t a k e t h e m a t t e r o u t t o t e n d e r r e fl e c t in g t h o s e t w o b r a n d s a n d i t fo ll o w e d f r o m t h e u n s o li c i t e d p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s m a d e b y S i y a n g e n a i n r e la t io n t o p h a s e two. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e s p o n s i b l e fo r th e in c l u s i o n o f t h e b r a n d s ? MS NGOYE: 10 W e l l t h e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t a r e a , in th is r e g a r d t h e C P O , th e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r a t th e ti m e w a s a g e n tl e m a n b y t h e n a m e o f M r J a s a p e t K o n g h u la [ ? ] , s o h e r a n w it h t h i s p r o c e s s , y o u k n o w, fr o m a p r o c u r e m e n t p e r s p e c ti v e . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: H a d h e r e p la c e d M r M b a t h a ? Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d in r e l a ti o n to th e is s u e o f th is R F P h o w l o n g b e f o r e th e i s s u e o f t h i s R F P h a d M r K o n g h u l a r e p la c e d M r M b a t h a ? MS NGOYE: I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r t h e t i m e s C h a ir b u t w h a t I k n o w i s th a t a t t h e t i m e th a t th is p a r t ic u l a r p r o c e s s w a s in v o lv e d M r M b a th a h a d n o 20 lo n g e r b e e n th e C P O , M r K o n g h u l a h a d c o n fir m e d th e [i n d is t i n c t] . CHAIRPERSON: N o w d i d M r M b a th a r e s ig n w h e n t h e r e w a s a d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g o r w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d ? MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir, h e g o t m o v e d to a n o t h e r a r e a w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: H e ’s s ti ll t h e r e ? Page 104 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: W e l l h e l e f t n o w b e c a u s e t h e d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s th a t c o n ti n u e d i n h is a b s e n c e , f o u n d h i m g u i lt y a n d t h e r e f o r e h e w a s d is m i s s e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y w a s t h a t d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s C h a ir e d b y a n outsider by any chance? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A la w y e r ? Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d w o u l d t h a t a b e r e c e n t d e c is i o n th a t h e o r s h e made? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y d o w e h a v e t h a t? A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: W e w i ll g e t i t. O k a y j a , s o i t’s i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e h a v e th a t a n d h e d i d n ’ t ta k e t h e is s u e a n y f u r th e r, Mr M b a t h a ? MS NGOYE: W e ll h e w e n t to t h e C C M A C h a ir t o c h a ll e n g e t h e d is m i s s a l , y o u k n o w, s o t h a t p r o c e s s h a s s ti ll n o t b e e n c o m p l e t e d . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 I t ’s s t il l g o i n g o n ? Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o ju s t s o th a t C h a ir p e r s o n h a s a n i d e a o f ti m e li n e s , M r K o n g h u la r e p l a c e s M r M b a t h a ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: A t t h e ti m e – a t t h a t ti m e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . T h e t i m e fr a m e , m a y b e t o s a y, M r M b a th a w a s m o v e d Page 105 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t m o r e o r l e s s a t th a t t i m e i n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r y e a r a n d t h e n K o n g h u l a c a m e i n , d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n th a t w a s ? MS NGOYE: If a n y th in g , I t h i n k M r M b a t h a , i f I r e c a l l C h a ir Mr M b a th a w a s r e m o v e d a s t h e C P O p e r h a p s e n d o f 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O h o k a y. Ye s , b e c a u s e t h i s p r o c e s s i s a 2 0 1 3 p r o c e s s , t h e s e c o n d phase. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g w o u ld h a v e t a k e n p l a c e when? 10 MS NGOYE: I t ’s n o t l o n g a g o C h a ir, r e m e m b e r t h is is a s u b j e c t o f a n in v e s t i g a t io n s o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is th a t – b e c a u s e a ls o t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r h a d p i c k e d t h is u p . N o w a s p a r t o f t h e r e m e d ia l a c t i o n s P R A S A o b v io u s ly h a d t o f o l lo w c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s e s t o make sure that those p e o p le that had been id e n ti fi e d in t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s is a r e c e n t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MS NGOYE: I t ’s n o t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 A y e a r o r tw o a g o . I t ’s l a s t y e a r a c tu a lly C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t in b e t w e e n , a f t e r Mr M b a t h a h a d b e e n r e m o v e d , y o u s a y h e w a s r e m o v e d , h e m o v e d to a n o t h e r s e c t io n o f PRASA? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h e r e m a i n e d a t P R A S A u n t il th e d is c ip li n a r y Page 106 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 in q u ir y. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o fr o m a b o u t 2 0 1 2 t o a b o u t 2 0 1 8 / 2 0 1 9 h e r e m a in e d a t P R A S A ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t h e w a s th e C h ie f In f o r m a t io n O ffi c e r. CHAIRPERSON: W a s h e r e m o v e d b y Mr M o n ta n a ? M S N G O Y E : N o C h a ir, i t w a s th e r e c e n t – t h e l a s t B o a r d t h a t h a d t h e B o a r d … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS NGOYE: Ms K w in a n a ? Ms K w i n a n a ’s B o a r d th a t i n it i a t e d t h e d is c i p l in a r y proceedings. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s . A n d a p p o i n te d a l a w fir m t o r u n w i t h t h o s e p r o c e s s e s , s o it w a s l a s t y e a r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O h h i s r e m o v a l a s C P O w a s a ls o a r e c e n t t h i n g ? Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 20 [ I n d is ti n c t ] m o v e d f r o m C P O … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. N o s o r r y C h a ir, C I O , C h i e f I n f o r m a t io n O ffi c e r. S o C P O b e i n g t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: N o I u n d e r s t a n d b u t in i ti a l ly I w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t h e w a s r e m o v e d a s C P O a r o u n d 2 0 11 m a y b e 2 0 1 2 , m a y b e 2 0 1 3 b u t t h e n I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e s a y i n g i t o n ly h a p p e n e d r e c e n t ly. MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir C P O a s t h e C h ie f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r w a s Page 107 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 a r o u n d 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n h e w a s r e m o v e d fr o m t h e r e , i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n d u r in g M o n ta n a ’s ti m e . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: But you say he was not removed by him? No he was not removed – he was removed by him as a C P O b u t h e w a s n o t d i s m is s e d b y M r M o n t a n a … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 10 N o I m e a n fr o m th e p o s i ti o n o f C P O . T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , h e w a s r e m o v e d b y M r M o n t a n a , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y n o t h a t’s f i n e . MS NGOYE: Ye s , s o r r y w e ’ r e a t c r o s s p u r p o s e s . CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t ’s f in e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W a s t h e r e a n y r e a s o n g iv e n f o r M r M b a t h a to b e r e m o v e d f r o m t h e p o s i ti o n a s C P O t o C I O ? MS NGOYE: I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w t h e r e a s o n s C h a ir, I m e a n , I t h i n k th e p r a c ti c e a t P R A S A w a s t h a t y o u f o u n d o u r s e lv e s b e in g m o v e d e v e r s o o ft e n s o o n e n e v e r u n d e r s t o o d t h e r a ti o n a le o f , y o u k n o w, m o v i n g p e o p l e , i t h a p p e n e d to a lo t o f u s th a t w e w e r e m o v e d . A t o n e p o i n t , I 20 t h i n k a s e m p l o y e e s w e w o u l d m a k e fu n o f t h e s l o g a n o f P R A S A t o s a y b e m o v e d , r e fe r r i n g r e a l ly t o t h e e m p l o y e e s w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W i th i n P R A S A w h a t w o u l d b e a m o r e p r e s ti g io u s p o s i ti o n , b e i n g t h e C h ie f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r o r t h e C h i e f I n fo r m a ti o n O ff ic e r ? M S N G O Y E : I w o u l d s a y … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. Page 108 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Th a t w a s a p a r a ll e l m o v e . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O r w a s i t a p a r a ll e l ? M o r e o r le s s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . J a i t ’s g o t n o s a l a r y i n c r e a s e , i t w a s a p a r a ll e l m o v e b e c a u s e , y o u k n o w, ja . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O h o k a y. B e c a u s e a t o n e - p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n t h e C P O w a s a n E x e c u t iv e p o s i ti o n r i g h t a n d t h a t ’s w h a t M r M b a t h a w a s , h e ’s a lw a y s b e e n a n E x e c u tiv e in t h e o r g a n is a t io n . 10 W h e n M r K o n g h u la c a m e o n b o a r d it w a s t h e n a G M p o s i ti o n , a G e n e r a l M a n a g e r p o s i ti o n s o h e d i d n o t h a v e t h e s a m e s t a tu s a s t h a t o f M r M b a th a . S o th e r e w e r e c h a n g e s t o t h e o p e r a ti o n a l s tr u c t u r e t h a t d i d n o p la c e M r K o n g h u la a t a n E x e c u t iv e l e v e l , h o w e v e r, Mr M b a t h a fr o m b e i n g m o v e d fr o m t h e C P O a t E x e c u t iv e level went to the CIO which was s t il l a n E x e c u tiv e a p p o i n t m e n t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w o n e o f t h e t h in g s y o u s a y i n t h e – i f y o u c o u l d r e a d th e l a s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 3 4 , M r N g o y e . MS NGOYE: Ye s I’ m s a y i n g th e r e i t ’s n o t s u r p r is i n g ly g iv e n t h a t th e s p e c s w e r e t a i l o r m a d e f o r Si y a n g e n a , i t w a s a w a r d e d t h e c o n tr a c te d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I d o n ’ t k n o w w h o d r a f t e d t h e a ff id a v i t , s p e c s , I g u e s s s h o u l d h a v e b e e n s p e c i f ic a ti o n s . MS NGOYE: O h s o r r y i t w a s a n u r g e n t p r o c e s s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t i n th e S w i f a m b o m a t te r r e l a t i n g t o th e p u r c h a s e o f t h e l o c o m o ti v e s th a t ’s – o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t t h e S C A Page 109 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 e x p r e s s ly s a i d t h e t e n d e r w a s in v a li d b e c a u s e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s f o r t h e lo c o m o t iv e s h a d b e e n t a i l o r e d m a d e f o r S w if a m b o , d o y o u r e c a ll th e ju d g e m e n t ? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h e n y o u u s e d t h e w o r d “ t a i lo r m a d e ” i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t d i d y o u h a v e t h a t i n m i n d ? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir, I m e n t io n e d e a r l ie r t h a t th e – i t w a s a n u n s o li c i t e d p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s m a d e b y S iy a n g e n a t o P R A S A f o r th e r e s t o f th e s t a ti o n s . S o e ff e c t iv e ly, y o u k n o w, t a i lo r m a k in g i t w a s m a k in g i t 10 t o s u i t t h e p r o p o s a l th a t S iy a n g e n a h a d m a d e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o th e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s t h a t w e r e p u t o u t i n th e R F P, h o w w e r e t h e y r e l a te d t o w h a t w a s o ffe r e d i n t h e u n s o l ic it e d p r o p o s a l fr o m S i y a n g e n a ? MS NGOYE: W e l l t h e m e n ti o n o f t h e b r a n d C h a ir i s a g i v e a w a y y o u k n o w, in t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s , b e c a u s e o n ly S iy a n g e n a c o u ld s u p p o r t D e l m a y a a n d B a b y l o n a n d t h e r e f o r e th e o th e r b i d d e r s w e r e e x c l u d e d fr o m p a r t ic ip a ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 W h a t b r a n d w a s t h i s t h a t w a s m e n ti o n e d ? I t ’s a b r a n d , i t ’s c a l l e d D a l m a y a a n d t h e o n e w a s B a b y lo n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h y w o u l d S iy a n g e n a b e th e o n ly o n e t h a t c o u l d a c c e s s i t? MS NGOYE: I g u e s s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t h e - th e y w e r e r e g a r d e d , l ik e the OEM, the original, you know…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, m a n u f a c t u r e r ? Page 110 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s i t . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s . J a , s o t h e y ’r e th e o n e s th a t s u p p o r t e d – th e y w e r e t h e o n ly o n e s t h a t c o u l d s u p p o r t th a t b r a n d . CHAIRPERSON: M m m o k a y th a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o c a n y o u r e c a ll w h a t t h e a m o u n t o f t h a t – o f p h a s e t w o w a s , m o r e o r le s s ? MS NGOYE: I t w a s o v e r R 2 b il li o n C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS NGOYE: O v e r R 2 b i ll io n ? Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: P h a s e o n e w a s i n i t ia ll y R 1 . 1 th e n R 1 . 9 b u t u lt i m a t e ly R2.2 or there about. MS NGOYE: Ye s w i t h th e i n c l u s i o n o f th e R 2 5 0 . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 O v e r R 2 b i ll io n . Ye s it w a s 1 6 1 s t a ti o n s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A n d th e n p h a s e t w o w a s ? O v e r R 2 b i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ja. Ye s . Ja. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, b u t ju s t t o – y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t – w e w e r e t a lk in g a b o u t t h e b r a n d n o w a n d y o u w e r e m a k in g th e p o in t t h a t o n ly S iy a n g e n a c o u l d c o m e u p w i t h t h e b r a n d t h a t w a s r e q u ir e d . S o is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t, in r e g a r d t o p h a s e o n e , o n ly S iy a n g e n a w a s t o l d th a t t h e y Page 111 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 n e e d e d t o i n c lu d e a b r a n d in g m o d e l i n t h e [i n d i s t i n c t ] o r in th e ir proposal? MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e th e y a r e t h e o n ly o n e s . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A n d th e o th e r o n e s w e r e n o t to l d ? Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: In regard to phase two then the brand was put in that e n s u r e d th a t o n ly Siy a g e n a c o u ld w in . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. Th a t is c o r r ec t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : 10 So , u n d e r p h a s e o n e b eca u s e th e o th e r s d id n o t k n o w a b o u t th e fu n d in g mo d a l th e y s to o d n o c h a nc e o f w in n in g ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: So , u n d e r p h a s e tw o is [in te r v e n es ]. Th e b r a n d . C H A IR PER SO N : Is th e b r a n d o r th e re is a r e q u ir e men t o f a p o p u la r b r a n d . Th e y a ls o s to o d n o ch a n ce o f w in n in g . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : So if I c o u ld ju s t g o b a c k to p h as e o n e , w h e n yo u s a y th a t Siy a g en a w as to ld , is it s o me th ing y o u kn o w or s o me th in g y o u 20 a s s u me b ec a us e th e y h a d inc lu d e d th e r e fun d in g mo d a l. A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h a t I u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir is th a t a s p a r t o f th e d is c us s ion s th a t h a p p e n e d y o u k n ow w h e n th e r e w a s I me a n y o u k n ow I s ta r te d b y s ay in g it w a s a s ub c on tr a c to r a n d fr o m a s u b c on tr a c to r y o u k n o w th ey g o t to b e g ive n th e s ev e n Yo u k n o w a n d th ey w er e c o mmu n ic a tin g w ith p e o p le w ith in PR ASA, y o u k n ow a n d d is c us s ing h o w Page 112 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 b e s t it is to a s s is t PR ASA in d o in g th is p r o je c t. An d th e r e fo r e , y o u k n o w w ith th o s e d isc us s io ns c a me th e iss u e o f the fu n d in g mo d a l to s a y no w e w ill h e lp y o u o u t. I f y o u c a n n o t a ffo r d it w e w ill h e lp y o u o u t a n d th e r e fo r e th e y a r e th e o n e s th a t k n e w th a t k n e w th a t y o u k n o w th a t w o u ld b e r e c e iv e d v er y w e ll by PR ASA b e c a u s e th e y h a d b e en in te r a c tin g w ith th e p e o p le in PR ASA, C h a ir, to th e e x c lu s io n o f o b v io u s ly a ll th o s e o th e r e ig h t. C H A IR PER SO N : O th e r w is e h ow w o u ld the y h a ve k n ow n th a t PR ASA w o u ld n o t h a v e th e b u d g e t to fu n d th is ? 10 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ja. Th e d is c u s s io n s w er e h a p pe n in g in te r n a lly. C H A IR PER SO N : In th e q u ie t . J a , O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d y o u s a y th a t o n th e b a s is o f th e in v es tig a tio n th a t y o u d id in p r e p a r in g fo r th e fo u n d in g a ffid a v it in th e r e v ie w ma tte r ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Alr ig h t, th e n a s s e ems to b e th e p r a c tic e th e r e is th e p h a s e tw o a nd th e n th e r e is s o me th in g a d d e d to it. C o u ld y o u te ll th e C h a ir p er so n a b o u t th a t a d d e n d u m to th a t p h a s e tw o c o n tr ac t? 20 MS N G O YE: C h a ir, th e a d d e n d u m w as a my s te ry to PR ASA . C H A IR PER SO N : I a m – I a m s o r r y Mis s N g o ye . Th a t is s o d i ffic u lt fo r me to u n d e r s ta nd . H o w an y b od y c o u ld th in k th a t a jo b fo r tw o b illio n – over tw o b illio n c ou ld r e a lly n o t g o o u t to an open te n d er in c ir c u ms ta n c es w h e re th e r e is n o ju s tific a tio n o r a lig h t u p o n th a t is p r o v ide d fo r in Pr o c ur e me n t Pr o v is io n s an d Su p p ly C h a in Ma n ag e me n t to Page 113 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 s a y w e a re ju s tifie d in n o t d o in g - fo llo w in g th is p r o c e d ur e . It is ju s t s o [in te r v e n e s ]. MS N G O YE: Biz a r r e , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : It to o k me b ig a mo u n ts a n d o b v io u s ly th e r e w ill b e q u e s tio n s a b ou t th a t. I f w e a r e ta lk in g s ma ll a mo u n ts ma y b e it mig h t n o t n o tic e . If y o u a r e ta lk in g b ig a mo u n ts y o u h a v e to kn o w th a t p e op le w ill w a n t to fin d o u t. MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : 10 An d p e o p le w ill a s k q u e s tio n s . So , I ju s t d o n o t u n d e rs ta n d w h a t a re th e a n s we r s th a t y o u th in k y o u w ill g iv e wh e n y ou a r e a sk e d q u es tio n s ? Yo u – y o u u n d e rs ta n d MS N G O YE: I – I g e t y o u C h a ir. I d o . An d I th in k y o u k n ow th a t is w h y th e in v e s tig a tio ns r e ve a le d y o u kn o w the a mo u n t o f c o r ru p tio n a n d ma la d min is tr a tio n a n d a ll s or ts th a t a n d fr a u d th a t w e r e h ap p e n in g in th e s e – in th e s e p r o c es s es . N o n c o mp lia nc e w ith le g is la tio n a n d th a t is w h y a t th e time PR AS A, th e Bo a r d o f D o c to r Po p o Mo le fe d e c id e d h e n e e d s to h a ve th e s e co n tr a c ts s e t a s ide b e c a us e th e in v es tig a tio n s r e v e a le d th e s e iss u e s th a t c o u ld n o t b e e x p la in e d , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : 20 We ll I d o n o t w a n t u s to f o r g e t Mr So n i b e fo r e w e fin is h o n p h a se tw o . L e t me g o b a c k to th e q u es tio n o f d e lib e r a te , in te n tio n a l w e ltin g o f p r oc e ss es a n d p r oc e d ur e s a s opp o s e d to ov er s ig h t, ig n o ra n ce o r a n y th in g lik e th a t to ma k e s u r e s h e c o v e rs a ll o f th o s e a s s h e s e e s th in g s a n d s o th e fa c ts th a t e me r g e d fr o m v a r io u s in v e s tig a tio ns . It is imp o r ta n t th a t th o s e b e d e a lt b e w ith h e a d o n to s a y if s o me b o d y is g o in g to c o me a n d d e fe n d n o n c o mp lia n c e th e y mu s t k n o w th a t th e – th e – th e Page 114 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 s u g g es tio n is th a t it w a s in te n tio n a l, it w a s d e lib e r a te , it w a s n o o v e rs ig h t. Ye s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ab s o lu te ly. Ye s , a n d th e y mu s t h a v e a ll th e d o c u me n ts av a ila b le . C H A IR PER SO N : All th e d o c u me n ts a v a ilable . Ye s . J a . A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, s o r r y, w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t th e a d d e n d u m a n d y o u w e r e s ay in g th e r e w a s a s tr a n ge as p e c t to th is . Ple a s e c an y o u e x p la in th e C h a irp e rs o n w h a t h a p pe n e d ? MS N G O YE: 10 C h a ir p e rs o n , w h e n th e Bo a r d o f PR ASA a t th e t ime o f D o c to r Mo le fe d ec id e w h a t w as y o u k n ow lo o k in g a t th e se c o n tra c ts we w e r e g iv e n a n in s tru c tio n by th e Bo a rd to s a y te ll Siy a g e n a to s to p w o r k in g b e c au s e we a r e n o t g o in g to p a y th e m b e c a us e o f th e s e ir r e g u lar itie s . An d Siy a g e n a b r o ug h t a n in te r d ic t a g a in s t PR ASA, th e H ig h C o u r t in Pr e to r ia a n d a s p a r t a s th e ir p a p e r s th e y p r o du c e d th is a d d e n d u m. N ow n o b o dy a t PR ASA k n e w a b o u t th e a d d e n du m. We s e a rc h e d a n d th e b u s in e ss u n it th a t w a s ma n a g in g th e c o n tr a c t o f Siy a g e n a w a s n o t e v e n a w a r e th a t th e r e w a s a d d e n d u m. We s e a r c h e d , y o u k n ow, th e d o c u me n ta tio ns w ith in PR ASA lo o k in g fo r th is a d d e n d u m it w a s n o t fo u n d . So th is a d d e n d u m w as p r o du c e d by Siy a g e n a fo r th e fir s t 20 time a t th e me e tin g , a t C o u r t in fa c t a n d w e w e r e a lar me d b ec a us e w e d id n o t k n o w w h a t th e d o c u men t w a s fo r an d w e s e ar c h ed , y o u k n ow, v ig o r ou s ly e ffe c tiv e ly to tr y fin d th is d o c u me n t a n d w e ju s t c o u ld n o t fin d it in th e r e c o r d s o f PR ASA. Bu t th i s d o c u men t w a s s ign e d by Mr Mo n ta n a . C H A IR PER SO N : An d h a v e w e g o t it h e r e ? Page 115 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : We d o n o t h a v e th a t d o c u me n t th a t Mr C h a ir, b u t w e w ill o b v io u s ly [in te r v e n es ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE : It is c r itic a l. it is p a r t o f th e b u n d le , C h a ir, fo r C o u r t b u t w e w ill h a v e to b r in g it a ls o h e r e . C H A IR PER SO N : I k n o w I th in k Mr So n i y o u w e r e tr y in g to a v o id br in g in g to o ma n y d o c u me n ts in to th e c o mmis s io n b u t s o me o f th e m a r e c r itic a l. Ja. So , if it is g o in g to b e imp o r ta n t to g o th r o u g h a g a in an d ma yb e r e v ise y o u r s e le c tio n . 10 O k a y, n o w w h a t d o y o u r e me mb e r w h a t k in d o f d a te th a t a d d e n d u m w o u ld h a ve b e e n s ig ne d? MS N G O YE : L e t me ju s t – le t me ju s t, if I a m n o t mis ta k e n if I r e c a ll C h a ir, it w a s Ap r il 2 0 1 4 . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , o k a y. I g u e s s yo u Mr So n i is s till g o in g to a sk y ou a b o u t w h a t - a b o u t its c o n te n ts . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s , w e ll c a n I ju s t s ta r t o ff b y ma k in g th is p o in t th a t a r o u n d th e 3 1 s t o f Ma rc h 2 0 1 4 Mr Mo n ta n a h a d fo r ma lly sa id th a t h e w a s g o in g to le a v e PR ASA. 20 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, c h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: So , th is d o c u me n t is s ig n e d a fte r th a t ti me ? An d Mr Mo n ta n a s ig n s o n b e h a lf o f PR A SA? Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. Page 116 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, w h a t – w h a t w a s th e – th e – th e , w h a t s e r v ic es w e r e Siy a g en a to p r o v id e in r es p ec t o f th a t a d d e n d u m? MS N G O YE : C h a ir, it w a s e ffe c tiv e ly a ty p e o f a ma in te n a n c e c o n tr ac t, y o u k n ow, w h e r e Siy a ge n a in r e la tio n to p h a s e o n e w o u ld r e p la ce , y o u k n ow, c e r ta in eq u ip me n t w ith o th e rs b ec a us e fr o m a – fr o m a – fr o m a p h a s e o n e I th in k a t th e time h a d r u n fo r a p e r io d o f th r e e y e a r s a n d so if D o c tor. if th e r e n e e d e d to b e a c h a n g e to th e e q u ip me n t th e n Siy a g e n a w o u ld th e n a g a in c o me in a n d b e a b le to p r ov id e th e ma in te n a n c e . Bu t, w h a t w e fo u n d in te r e s tin g a ls o a bo u t th is a d d en d u m w as th a t 10 y o u w o u ld h av e e xp e c te d th e re w o u ld b e se r v ice le v e l a g re e me n t to s a y th is is h o w y o u a re g o in g to d o th in g s a n d th is is y o u k n o w th e p r oc es s th a t y o u w o u ld fo llo w. We c o u ld n o t fin d th a t Se r v ic e L e ve l Ag r e e me n t th a t r e la te d to th e - to th a t a d d e n d u m. Bu t w h a t w e u n d er s to o d w a s th e r e q u ir e men t a t th e t ime w a s th a t PR A SA w ill th e n h a v e to p a y Siy a g e n a a n a mo u n t o f I th in k it is 1 0 millio n . A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: A mo n th A mo n th . Te n millio n a mo n t h fo r th o s e s e r v ic e s . So , s o w h e n Siy a g en a w as s u in g PR ASA th r o u gh th e a r b itr a tio n p r o c es s fo r mo n ie s o w e d it w o u ld in c lud e th is te n millio n . 20 C H A IR PER SO N : N o w, w e a r e d e a lin g w ith p h a s e tw o . r e la te d to a n a d d itio n a l a h u n d r e d a n d s ix ty -tw o – s ix ty - o ne . MS N G O YE: A h u n d r e d a n d s ix ty - o ne , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: A h u n d r e d a n d s ix ty - o ne tr a in s ta tio n s . Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N : An d th e r e is a n a d d e n d u m. Page 117 of 211 Ph a s e tw o is 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: An a d d e n d u m. C H A IR PER SO N : J a . Th e a d d e n d u m is fo r ma in te n a n c e . Ma in te n a nc e o f w h a t o f th e tr a in s ta tio n s ? MS N G O YE: O k a y, o f th e e q u ip me n t th a t S iy a g e n e wo u ld h a ve C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s , s o if i t n e e d e d to b e c h a n g e d th a t is r ig h t. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . So th a t a d d e n d u m r e la te d to t h e m h a v in g to th a t w o r k . C H A IR PER SO N : 10 Used. An d d o y o u r e me mb e r h ow lo n g w h a t th e d u r a tio n w a s in te n d e d to b e fo r th a t - fo r th o s e s e r v ic e s to b e p r o v id ed b y Siy a g e na ? MS N G O YE: I c a n n o t r e me mb e r, C h a ir. I c a n n o t r e me mb e r. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: O v e r a fe w y e a rs ? Ye s , i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n . Re me mb e r th a t th e p h a s e o n e p r o je c t w as a c tu a lly n e ar c o mp le tio n a t th e t ime . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: An d th e n th is a d d e n d u m c a me o u t. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE : Ye s . Th e a d d e n d u m r e la te d p ha s e o n e a n d p ha s e tw o ? I th in k it w a s p h a s e o n e a n d tw o C h a ir, b u t I s ta n d to b e c o r re c te d I w ill h a v e to c h e ck o n it. 20 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Bu t p h a s e o n e d e fin ite ly. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Bu t p h a s e o n e d e fin ite ly ? Ye s . Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : An d y o u s a y th e y w e r e to b e p a id te n millio n r a n d a mo n th ? Page 118 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : W h ic h me a n s in tw e lv e mo n th s th a t w ill b e o n e h u n d re d a n d tw e n ty millio n ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , a n d n o b o d y k n e w a bo u t th is a d d e n du m th a t is w h y y o u h a d to lo o k fo r it? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r ec t, C h a ir. We s a w it fo r th e fir s t time w h e n Siy a g e n a ’s a tto r n ey s p r od u ce d it, w e k n e w a b o u t it. C H A IR PER SO N : 10 Ye s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h e n y o u s a y th e y p r o d uc e d it th a t s u r e ly w o u ld h a v e b e en p a r t o f th e p a p e r s th e y p r es e n te d to C o u r t? MS N G O YE : Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. W h e n th e y s e r v e d u s th e p a p e r s [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: [in d is tin c t] Th a t w e h a d p a p e r s in s u pp o r t o f th e in c id e n t. Th a t is c o r re c t. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C a n I ju s t r a is e th is , th a t ma in te n a n c e a g r e e me n t w a s in r e la tio n to e q u ip me n t th a t h a d b e e n s u p p lie d in p h as e o n e ? MS N G O YE: 20 Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. D e fin ite ly p h a s e o ne a s I s a y I c a n n o t r e me mb er if it e x te n d e d to p h a s e tw o . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th a t e q u ip me n t th is g iv e n th e time s b e c a u s e th is is 2 0 1 4 th a t e q u ip me n t w o u ld b e a t le a s t tw o o r th r e e y e a rs o ld ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : L e t me ju s t a s k y o u th is a n d I w ill ju s t a s k a s a g e n e r a l p ro p os itio n , th is w a s e le c tr o n ic e q u ip me n t, w o u ld I b e c o r r e c t? Page 119 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Bu t s u r e ly in th o s e tw o y e a r s e qu ip me n t w o u ld h a v e e v o lv ed s o mu c h th a t th a t e q u ip me n t w o u ld e ffe c tiv e ly h a v e b e e n a lmo s t a n c ie n t w h e n o ne lo o ks a t te c h n o lo g ic a l d eve lo p me n t? MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. It is p o s s ib le . A D V VA S SO N I SC : H a s a n y b o dy e x a min e d w h e re th e r e is s uc h a c o n tr ac t th a t is w o r th e n te r ing in to in o th e r w o rd s s p e n d ing 1 0 millio n r a n d to ma in ta in e q u ip me n t th a t mig h t n o w b e o u td a te d te c h n o log ic a lly s p e ak in g ? 10 MS N G O YE: C h a ir, th a t is w h y, y o u k n o w, o n e is s a y in g it w a s ju s t a b iz a rr e s itu a tio n w e we r e fa ce d w ith . Es pe c ia lly, w ith th e b us in es s th a t w a s ma n a g in g th e p a r tic u lar c o n tr ac t w a s no t e v e n a w a re th a t th e r e w a s th is a d d e n d u m th a t r e la te d to ma in te n a n c e o f th e e q u ip me n t. So , y o u k n ow, w e we r e a ll s u rp r ise d to s ee th is do c u me n t a n d w e jus t d id n o t k n o w h ow it c a me a b o u t. Yo u k n o w, s o it fo r u s it w a s ju s t in fa c t w e th o u g h t th a t th is d o c u me n t w a s c r e a te d o u tsid e . C H A IR PER SO N : An d d o y o u r e me mb e r w he th e r s o me b od y w ith in PR ASA h a d w itn e ss e d Mr Mo n ta n a ’s s ig n a tur e o n th e a d d e n d u m? MS N G O YE: 20 N o , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Th e r e w a s n o w itn e ss , o r y o u c a nn o t r e me mb e r ? I c a n n o t r e me mb e r. J a , I ca n n o t r e me mb er th is w itn es s . Bu t d e fin ite ly i t w a s [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : Bu t p r o b a b ly yo u w ou ld s o me b o dy y o u kn e w th a t w itn e s se d , th a t is i t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is i t. J a . Page 120 of 211 have r e me mb er e d th a t 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Bu t y o u c a n n o t r e me mb e r w h e n it w a s ? N o , n o I c a n n o t r e c a ll. Bu t I k n o w th a t th e d oc u me n t wa s a ll I r e me mb e r C h a ir is th a t th e d o c u me n t w a s s ig n e d by Mr Mo n ta n a . C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , a n d s o me o f u s a r e n o t s o g o o d w ith te c h n o log y, Mis s N g oy e , b u t in te r ms o f th e o ld la n gu a ge I w a n t to s a y w he n yo u w e n t th r o u g h th e file to PR A SA’s file w h e r e a ll d o c u me n ts , a g r e e me n ts a n d c o r re s po n d e nc e r e la tin g to th a t p r o je c t w e re s u p p os e d to b e th e r e w as n o th a t me mo r a n d u m w a s n o t th e r e . MS N G O YE: 10 N o , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Yo u p r o b a b ly d id n o t go to a p h ys ic a l file a nd y ou [in te r v e n e s ]. MS N G O YE : We lo o k e d w e e v e n o n e o f th e c o mp a n ie s th a t w e h a d e mp lo y e d d u r ing th e in v e s tig a tio n Fa x C o n su ltin g c o u ld b a s ic a lly r e me mb e r I s p ok e a b ou t o u r c o mpu te r s b e ing ima g e d ? So c o u ld b as ic a lly g o in to th e in fo r ma tio n o f PR ASA a n d p u ll o u t y o u k no w a ny th in g th a t w e r e q u es te d . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: It w a s ju s t n o t th e r e , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : 20 Ye s . So , it d e fin ite ly w a s n o t th e r e ? Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : N o w th e in te r e s tin g th in g th a t [in te r v e n e s ]. I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. So r r y. I a m te r r ib ly s o r r y p le a s e d o n o t fo r g e t th e p o in t y o u o n . N o w y o u s ay th a t th e in v e s tig a to r s h a d ima g e d y ou r c o mpu te r s , PR ASA’s c o mp u te r s a n d th ey d id n o t fin d th is a d d e n d u m, is th a t r ig h t? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. Page 121 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : C o n s titu tio n , So , in o th e r w o r ds a s fa r a s y o u u n d er s ta n d th e th a t addendum was never e n te r e d in to any PR ASA c o mp u te r ? MS N G O YE: N o , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : An d th e r e fo r e , it c o u ld no t h a v e b e e n c r ea te d fr o m a PR ASA c o mp u te r ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : It c o u ld o n ly h a ve b ee n c r ea te d fr o m o u ts id e o f PR ASA? 10 MS N G O YE: Th a t is w h a t – w e ll, th a t is th e c o n c lu s ion w e c a me to , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , b e c a u s e o th e rw is e all d o c u me n ts th a t a r e c r ea te d w ith in PR ASA . MS N G O YE: Wo u ld h a v e b e e n fo u n d . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Wo u ld b e fo u n d w ith in PR ASA c o mp u te r s . Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, th e in te r e s tin g th in g a b o u t a n d I k n o w y o u h a v e me n tio n e d o th e r in te r e s tin g th in g s , b u t th e in te r e s tin g th in g a b o u t 20 th is a d d e n d u m is , it is c a lle d a n a d d e n d u m to p h a s e tw o , a m I r ig h t? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE : Bu t it is a c tu a lly r e la ted to p h a s e o n e . To p h a s e o n e b e c a u s e y o u co u ld n o t h a v e h a d p h a s e tw o w a s ju s t b e g in n ing , y o u k n ow, p h a s e o n e w o u ld h a ve b e e n th e o n e th a t w o u ld r eq u ir e c h a n ge s to th e ir e q u ip men t. Page 122 of 211 Bu t, ja , th a t is w h y a lo t o f 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 th in g s d id n o t ma k e s e ns e w h e n we lo o k ed a t it . O u r c o n c lu s io n w ith th e ir in v e s tig a tin g te a m a n d ou r a tto r n eys w a s th a t th e r e w a s c le a r ly s o me th in g I mis s e d h e r e . It d id n o t ma k e s e n s e . A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll in a n y c a s e , p h a s e o n e h a d p h a s e o n e th e n i t h a d a n e x te n s io n th e n it h a d a n a d d e n d um a ll in th e s p a c e o f a b o u t 6 mo n th s ? MS N G O YE: E ffe c tiv e ly, C h a ir. It is c o r r ect. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e n th r e e y e a r s la te r it w ill b e o d d to s a y th e n th a t th is is a fu r th e r a d d e n d u m to p h a s e on e? 10 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ar e y o u s u g ge s tin g in a ny w a y th a t th e r e fe r e nc e to in th e a d d e n d u m to p h a s e tw o , w h ic h w a s w ro n g fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a id , w a s d e lib er a te ? MS N G O YE: It w a s p r e ma tu r e , C h a ir. Yo u c o u ld n o t h a v e ma d e r e fe r e nc e to p h a s e tw o b e c au s e in te rms o f, r e me mb e r a ls o o n e u n d e rs ta n d s th a t th e r e is w a rr a n ty p e r io d s, y o u k n o w in r e la tio n to th e e q u ip me n t th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r o v id e d to PR A SA. So , p h a s e tw o - th e y w er e s till in th e p ro c es s I me a n p h ase tw o w as o n ly c o mp le te d in fa c t la s t y e a r. 20 C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s . N o , w h a t I a m a s k in g is it is s tr a n g e th a t y o u h a v e s a id th e a d d e nd u m is w r itte n p h a s e tw o b e c a us e p h as e tw o is ju s t s ta r tin g , a t th a t time ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ph a s e o n e g o t c o mp le ted th r e e y e ar s be fo r e . r ig h t? Page 123 of 211 Is th a t 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : So , I a m a s k in g th e q u e s tio n w h e th e r y o u th in k th e p e r s on w h o wr o te p h as e tw o o n th e a d d end u m d id s o in te n tio n a lly o r it mig h t h a v e b e e n a n o v er s igh t? MS N G O YE: I th in k it w a s a n o v e r s igh t C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: I th in k it w a s a n o v e r s igh t. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: 10 H mm? Yo u th in k it w a s a n o v e r s ig h t? Ye s . J a . I th in k it w a s a n o v e r s ig h t. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y, n o th a t is fin e . I d o n o t th in k th a t s o me b od y may h a v e th o u g h t it is g o in g to b e s tr a n g e fo r a d o c u me n t th a t c o me s u p 3 y e a rs a fte r th e c o mp le tio n o f p h a s e o n e w ill b e w r itte n p h a s e o n e in te r ms o f ma in te n a n c e a n d th e n w r o te p h as e two b e c a us e p h as e tw o is jus t s ta r tin g s o it w o u ld b e .. .[in d is tin c t] y o u th in k th a t is u n lik e ly. Yo u th in k th a t b e c a u s e p ha s e o ne h a d ju s t – p h as e tw o h a d ju s t s ta r te d w ha t w a s b e in g ta lk e d a b o u t w a s p h as e tw o a n d in th e p r o c es s a n d s o meb o d y wr o te p h a s e tw o ? MS N G O YE : We ll, C h a ir th e w h o le th in g j u s t d id n o t ma k e s e n s e to u s . Yo u k n o w, h e r e w e a r e in th e mid s t o f th e p h a s e tw o w o rk s till b e in g 20 d o n e , y o u k n ow, it h a s n o t b e e n co mp le te d a n d y o u th e n y o u k n ow c r ea te th is a d d e n d u m fo r p u r po s es o f p h a s e tw o ins te a d o f y o u c a ll it p h a s e tw o b u t y o u r e fe r to p h a s e o n e w h ic h w a s s upp o s e d to b e c o mp le te d a t th e time . It ju s t d id n o t ma k e s e n s e I me a n I m y v ie w [in te r v e ne s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : It ma y b e o v e r – o v e rs ig ht, y o u s a y. Page 124 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE : My v ie w is th a t y o u k n o w in a h a s te y o u k n o w y o u th e n d o n o t c h e c k w h a t it is y o u h a v e p u t o n th e d o cu me n t. C H A IR PER SO N : Ja. A D V VA S SO N I SC : We ll , c a n th a t b e c o r re c t a n d I a m s a y in g th is in th is th e d o c u me n t h e a d e d Ad d e n d u m to Ph a s e Tw o b u t th e s u b s ta n c e th e w o r k to b e d o n e is in r e la tio n to p h a s e o n e . MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir a n d th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g , y ou k n ow b e ca u s e w e c o u ld n o t ma k e s e n se w e c o u ld n o t fin d th is d o c u me n t th e o n ly th in g th a t w e c o u ld d e d uc e w as th a t y o u k n ow, th in g s w er e d o n e in a r us h a n d 10 th e r e fo r e p e op le d id n o t a p p ly th e ir min d s w h e n th e y w e r e pu ttin g th e d o c u me n ts to g e th er. C H A IR PER SO N : Bu t c o u n s e l is s ay in g in e ffe c t it w o u ld lo o k s tra n g e th a t s o me b o d y w ho k n ow s th a t th is d o c u men t r e la te s to w o r k th a t b e lo n g s to p h a s e o n e w o u ld wr ite a t th e to p p h a s e t w o b e c au s e o f o v e rs ig h t. MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: W h e n h e k n o ws th e o ld d o c u me n t is a b o u t p h a se o n e . Ph a s e o n e . J a . Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Th e r e mu s t b e s o mu c h t o r e min d h im th a t th is is a b o u t p h a s e – p ha s e o ne a n d th e r e fo re fo r h im to c h a n g e th is if it w a s 20 o v e rs ig h t. MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. L o o k I d o no t u nd e r s ta n d r e a lly w h a t h ap p e n ed a n d if o n e c a n e x p la in it a s I s a id y o u k n ow th is is ju s t p o u n c e d o n us . C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s . Ye s . N o , th a t is fin e . O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : I s u p p o s e th a t a ll th a t o n e c a n d o is d r a w in s u r an c es fr o m a ll th e fa c ts p u t to g e th e r ? Page 125 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : In c lu d in g th e fa c t th a t th is a b o u t th e time Mr Mo n ta n a a n d h is le a v ing . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, ju s t fin a lly o n th a t in r e s p e c t o f th a t a d d e n d u m w h e th e r it is c o r r ec tly c a lle d Ad d e n d u m to p h a s e o n e o r p h a s e tw o h a d a n y c la ims b e en ma d e by PR ASA b e tw e en Ap r il 2 0 1 4 to th e time th a t Siy a g e n a s ue d fo r th e mo n e y o w in g in te r ms o f th a t c o n tr a c t? MS N G O YE: 10 Ar e w e ta lk in g to p h a s e o n e ? A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE : N o , n o th is a d d e n d u m h e r e . Th a t is [in te r v e n e s ]. N o , th e r e w a s n o p a y me n t in r e la tio n to th e ma in te n a n c e . R e me mb e r th is w a s ma in te n a n ce . So , w e d id n o t b e c a us e w e d id n o t k n o w a bo u t th is s o n o th in g c ou ld h a v e be en a ttr ib u te d to th e p a y me n t in r e la tio n s to th e ma in te n an c e . So , th e p a y me n ts th a t w a s d o n e in r e la tio n to th e w o r k th a t Siy a g e n a h a d p e r fo r med fo r PR ASA w a s in r e la tio n to th e c o n tr ac ts th e ms e lv es a n d n o t th e ma in te n a n c e p o r tio n . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Mis s N g o y e y o u a re ma k in g a s lig h tly d iffe r e n t p o in t. Th is a g r e e me n t is c o n c lu d e d in Ap r il 2 0 1 4 ? MS N G O YE: 20 Th a t is c o r r ec t, C h a ir. We ll, it is p u r p o r te d ly. I do not k n o w wa n t to s a y th a t it is c o n c lu d ed b e c a us e I d o n o t k n o w. A D V VA S SO N I SC : MS N G O YE: Th a t is w h a t w e h a d b e fo r e . Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, th a t a g r e e me n t s a ys PR ASA mu s t p a y Siy a g e n a 1 0 millio n r a n d a mo n th fo r ma in te n a n c e o f p h a s e o n e e q u ip me n t? Page 126 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, th a t te n millio n r a n d a mo n th b e c o me s d u e a t th e time th e a g r e e me n t k ic ks in . MS N G O YE: It s h o u ld . A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : At th e time o f s ig n a tu r e o r s o o n th e r e a fte r ? A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: In d e e d , C h a ir. Is th a t s o ? A D V VA S SO N I SC : 10 We ll, I me a n [in te r v e ne s ]. Ye s . O k a y s o it w a s s ig ne d in Ap r il tw e n ty ... [in te r v e n e s ]. Fo u r te e n C H A IR PER SO N : Fo u r te e n . Th e a c tu a l p e r fo r ma n c e o f th e ma in te n a nc e w o r k by Siy a g e n a wa s s up p os e d to s ta r t imme d ia te ly ? MS N G O YE: Bu t it c o u ld n o t h a v e s ta r te d imme d ia te ly, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: It c o u ld n o t h a v e s ta r te d imme d ia te ly b e c au s e [in te r v en e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: H mm? Be c a u s e th e y w er e b u sy w ith p h a s e tw o ? We ll, y o u g o t w a r r a n tie s , y o u k n ow, th a t w o u ld h e lp y o u a t le a s t w ith y o u k n ow c h a n g in g ...[in te r v e n es ]. 20 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE : Ma in te n a n c e . Ma in te n a n c e is s u es in r e la tio n to th e p h a s e o n e s o it w o u ld th e n h a v e to k ic k in a fte r th e w a r r an ty p e r iod la p s e d . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . Ye s . Page 127 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : Bu t d o y o u r e me mb e r u p to w h e n th e w a r r a n ties w o u ld h a v e b e en v a lid ? MS N G O YE: I d o n o t r e c a ll, C h a ir. I d o n o t r e me mb e r. C H A IR PER SO N : It is th e p o s itio n th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r a t th e time o f th e s ig n in g o f th e a d d e n d u m th e w a r r a n tie s [in te r v e ne s ]. MS N G O YE: Th e w a r r a n tie s ...[in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: H a d k ic ke d in w e r e n o lo ng e r o p e ra tio n a l? I c a n n o t r e c a ll, C h a ir. I d o n o t w a n t to ma k e s u b miss io ns to th a t. 10 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Se e b e c a u s e th a t to o c r e a te s a p r o b le m a b o u t th e p r o p r ie ty a b o u t e n te r in g in to th a t c o n tr a c t. Mr Mo n ta n a is a b o u t to le a v e , if th e w a r r a n t is o n ly g o in g to e x p ir e 6 mo n th s fr o m th e n , w h a t is th e n e e d to e n te r in to th e c o n tr a c t b e fo r e h e le a v e s? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, c h a ir. I me a n I w ill s a y a g a in y o u k n ow w e fo u n d it in te r e s tin g th a t th is d o c u men t w a s ju s t p r o d uc e d a t th e time th a t it w a s p r o d uc e d an d th e fa c t th a t w e c o u ld n o t fin d it a n d th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g C ha ir in te r n a lly in r e la tio n to th e p a y me n ts fo r ma in te n a n c e w e c o u ld n o t fin d , y o u n o w, th e fa c t th a t PR A SA h a d p a id fo r ma in te n a n c e a n y wh e r e in r e la tio n to th e p h a s e o n e c o n tr a c t. Th e b u s in e ss u n it th a t 20 w a s r e sp o ns ib le fo r th is c o n tr a c t if th e y k n e w a b o u t it w o u ld h a v e k n o w n th a t th e y w o u ld h a v e h a d to p a y th is ma inte n a n c e a s we ll b u t b e c a u se th e y d id n o t k no w yo u k no w th e re w o u ld no t h a v e b e en a n y jus tific a tio n fr o m th e m to p a y. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: W h a t is th e u n it a t PR A S A th a t ... [in te r v e n e s ]. It w a s PR ASA C r e s s . It w a s th e C o r p or a te R e a l Es ta te . Page 128 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE : Ye s , y e s . Th e y d id n o t k n o w a n y th in g a b ou t it. N o , w e a s k e d th e C EO a t th e time w a s , Ta r a n N g u b a n i, a n d s h e lo ok e d w ith h er te a m a n d th e y d id no t k n o w a b ou t it. We a s k e d p r o c ur e me n t ...[in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : Th e y n e v e r a s ke d fo r a n y th in g lik e th a t, a s fa r a s y o u k n o w? MS N G O YE : N o , w h e n w e a s k e d , w e a s k e d a s w e r e c e iv ed th e d o c u me n t, s o w e w e n t b a c k a n d s a id w e n e e d to c h e c k o u r s e lv e s w he th e r th is d o c u me n t e x is ts . We w e n t to p r o c u r eme n t a n d p r o c u re me n t d id n o t 10 h a v e a r e co r d o f th e d o c u me n t. We w e n t to th e b u s in e s s u n it th a t w a s ma n a g in g th e p r o jec t to a s k if th e y k n ew a b o u t th is d o c u men t a n d th e y d id n o t k n o w a s w e ll. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : Ma y b e y o u a sk h im, a n d I w ill c o me b a c k . A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : Bu t th e g r a c e , o h s o r ry C h a ir. I d o n o t min d . I k n o w my q u e s tio n . J u s t to c o mp le te th e p ic tu r e n o w, I a m ta k in g y o u to s o me th in g e ls e , h e ma d e b y PR ASA to Siya g e n a o f th e wo rk d o n e w ith r e g a rd to p h a s e o n e o v e r th e 3 y e a r s b e fo r e th is a d d e n d u m w a s fin d w a s d id PR ASA p a y a n y th in g ? 20 MS N G O YE: Ye s , w e d id C h a ir. I th in k w e p a id o v e r 1 b illio n . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: O h , h a d y o u in th e me a n ti me fo u n d mo n e y ? Ye s , w e h a d mo n e y. We p a id o v e r 1 b illio n . I th in k in r e s p ec t o f p h a s e o n e a t th e time th e Bo a r d r e q u e s te d u s to s to p p a y in g Siy a g e n a , w e w e re o w in g Siy a g en a a b o u t s ix h u n d r ed millio n . C H A IR PER SO N : Yo u w o u ld h a v e p a id a b o ut 1 .6 b illio n . Page 129 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Fo r p h a s e o n e . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Fo r p h a s e o n e . Ja. A D V VA S SO N I SC : W h a t is a ls o in tr ig u in g is th e fir s t time y o u g e t to k n o w a bo u t th is d o c u me n t is w h e n PR ASA t e lls Siy a g e n a to s to p w o rk in g . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, if Siy a g e n a , if th e r e w as su c h a n a gr e e me n t, I a m c o min g b ac k to th e p o in t yo u ma d e . We mu s t a c ce p t w e d o no t k n ow if th e r e w a s a n y b u t if th e r e w a s s u c h a n a g r e e me n t th e n o n e w o u ld 10 e x p ec t th a t if mo n e y is d u e in te r ms o f a n a g r e e me n t Siy a ge n a w ou ld h a v e a sk e d fo r p ay me n ts in te r ms o f th a t. MS N G O YE: Th e y w o u ld h a v e in vo ic e d . De fin ite ly, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N : An d h a d th e r e b e e n a n y [in te r v e n es ]. I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. J u s t w ill y o u n o t ju s t r e p e a t th a t q u e s tio n , p le a s e ? I d id n o t fo llo w. A D V VA S SO N I SC : So if th e r e w a s s uc h a co n tr a c t th e n on e mu s t a s s u me th a t a t th e time y o u to ld h im to s top , mo n e y is o w in g to Siy ag e n a b e c a us e th a t is w h y th e y d o n o t w a n t to s to p . MS N G O YE: 20 Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w, h a d - b a s ed on th e in v e s tig a tio ns y ou h a d d o n e a n d th e te a m, h a d it b e e n fo u n d o u t wh e th e r Siy a g en a h a d s e n t a n y in v o ic es in r e g ar d s to th a t 1 0 millio n r a n d a mo n th ? MS N G O YE: C h a ir p e rs o n , w h a t h a p p e n ed is th a t in r e la tio n to p h a s e o n e th e c o n tr a c t w a s o b v io us ly n o t k n o w n s o th e r e w a s n o s u b miss io n o f a n in v o ic e in r e la tio n to th e ma in te n a nc e o f it. W h a t w e th e n fo u n d o u t w a s Page 130 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 in r e la tio n to th e ma tte r s p e r ta in in g to p h a s e 2 th a t in Siy a n g e n a ’s in v o ic es th e r e w ou ld b e r e fe r e nc e to th is ma in te n a n c e a gr e e me n t. Bu t o b v io us ly a t th e time w e h a d p u t a h o ld , th e b o a r d h a d p u t a h o ld o n p a y me n t o f th e s e a mo u n ts to Siy a n g e n a s o n o mo n ie s w o u ld h a v e b e en p a id in r e la tio n to th is a d d e nd u m fo r Siy an g e n a . Bu t th e y in c lud e d th e a mo u n t th a t PR A SA o w e s th e m. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C H A IR PER SO N: C a n I a s k - o h s o r ry, C h a ir. I a m s o r r y. J u s t I n e e d to g e t my time fr a me s r ig h t. R o u n d ab o u t w h e n in te r ms o f mo n th a n d y ea r w a s PR ASA d is co v er in g o r 10 w e r e y ou d is co v er in g - d id yo u d is co v er th a t th e r e w a s th is a d d e nd u m? It w a s s ign e d in 1 4 - in Ap r il 2 0 1 4 . MS N G O YE: Mm. C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w h e n d id y o u d is c ov er - w h en w a s it th a t Siy a n g e n a to o k y o u to c o u r t? MS N G O YE: We a s k e d Siy a n g en a to s to p I th in k it w a s in 2 0 1 6 . C H A IR PER SO N: 2 0 1 6 . MS N G O YE: Th e la te s t 2 0 1 6 , y e s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: I t c o u ld b e 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 w h e n th e b o a r d s a id , lo o k b as e d o n 20 th e in v e s tig a tio n s th a t w e h a v e s to p p ay in g Siy a n g e n a . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: So it w a s ... ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: So it w o u ld h a v e b e e n a rou n d - c o u ld h a v e b e en 2 0 1 7 . MS N G O YE: 2 0 1 6 . C H A IR PER SO N: 2 0 1 6 ? Page 131 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: 2 0 1 6 , ja C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Th e b o a r d o f D r Po p o Mo le fe w a s s till in p la c e . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . So th a t w a s a b o u t 3 , 2 a n d h a lf y e a rs o r th e r e a b o u t a fte r. MS N G O YE: Ye s a f te r. C H A IR PER SO N: Afte r th e s ig n in g . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: So d u r in g th a t p e r io d PR ASA h a d n o t ma d e a n y p a y me n t 10 in r e g a r d to th is a d d e n d u m? MS N G O YE: N o C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e ma in te n a n c e o n e . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: It h a d ma d e p a y me n ts in r e g a r d to p h a s e 1 . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: In te r ms o f th e . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: Th e w o r k th a t h a v e b e e n d o n e . C H A IR PER SO N: Th e w o r k th a t h a v e b e e n do n e . MS N G O YE: Ye s . Be c a u s e th e r e w as a p r oc e ss a ls o C ha ir. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t y o u s a y th a t Siy a n g e n a h a d in c lu d ed r e fe r e nc e s to th is a d d e n d u m a n d ma in te n a nc e w or k in th eir in v o ic es . MS N G O YE: A fte r. C H A IR PER SO N: Afte r. MS N G O YE: A fte r w e fo u n d o u t. C H A IR PER SO N: O h , a fte r y o u fo u n d o u t. Page 132 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: R e me mb e r th e y - ja , th e y s till b ill u s C h a ir. Th e y c o n tin u e to b ill u s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: In fa c t, w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a ir w ith th e in te r d ic t, w e lo s t th e in te r d ic t a n d s o th e y w er e a llo w e d to c o n tinu e to w o r k . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: An d s o , th e y c o n tin u e d ... ( in t e r v e ne s) C H A IR PER SO N: So th e y s ta r te d b illin g y ou fo r th e fir s t time in r e g a r d to th is a d d e n d u m. 10 MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: So th e y h a d th is a dd e n d um, it w a s s ig n e d in Ap r il 2 0 1 4 b u t d id n o t s a y a n y th ing a b o u t p a y men t. D id y o u kn o w- d id y o u ge t to k n o w a t a n y s ta g e w h e th e r fr o m a fte r th e s ig n a tu r e , th e s ig n in g o f th e a d d e n d u m, w h e th er th e y a c tu a lly d id th e w or k in te r ms o f th e a d d e n d u m? MS N G O YE: N o C h a ir th e r e w a s n o t a n y e v id e nc e th a t s h ow e d th a t ... ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t th e y d id th e w o r k . MS N G O YE: J a , th e r e w a s n o t. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . 20 MS N G O YE: W h a t I k n o w C h a ir is th a t th e C EO Mr Ta r a N g u ba n e - I me a n Ms Ta r a N g u ba n e wh e n h e in te r v iew e d he r in r e la tio n to w a n tin g to u n d e rs ta n d w h a t a c tu a lly tr a ns p ir e d sh e in d ic a te d th e th o r o u g h ne ss o f lo o k in g a t th e w o rk th a t Siy a n g e na w ou ld ha v e d on e b e fo re p ay me n t a n d th e y w o u ld q u es tio n o b v io us ly th in gs th a t th e y d id n o t a g r e e w ith . C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. Page 133 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: So s p e a k in g to h e r th e r e w as n o me n tio n o f th e fa c t th a t th is c o n tr a c t w as in e x is te nc e ( in d is tinc t) . C H A IR PER SO N: An d I guess th e y w o u ld not have pe r fo r me d ma in te n a n c e w or k w ith o u t th e c lie n t k n o w ing ... ( in te r v e n e s) MS N G O YE: O f c o u r s e . C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t th e y w e r e p e r fo r min g ma in te n a n c e w o rk . MS N G O YE: J a , th e y w o u ld n o t. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : 10 Bu t o n e th in g u n til th e in te r d ic t a p p lic a tio n b y Siy a n g e n a th e re is n o in v o ic e fr o m Siy a n g en a r e la tin g to th e s e 1 0 millio n r a n d a mo n th ? MS N G O YE: N o C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J u s t r e p e a t th a t. A D V VA S SO N I SC : U n til th e in te r d ic t a p p lic a tio n Siy a n g e n a b ro u g h t, th e r e is n o in v o ice fr o m Siy a n g e n a to PR AS A. MS N G O YE: Th e r e is n o in v o ic e C ha ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w h a t w o u ld y o u th e n d e d u ce fr o m th e fa c t th a t th e r e is n o in v o ic e in - w e a r e n o w lo o k ing a t 2 0 1 7 w h e n th is in te r d ic t a p p lic a tio n is b r ou g h t. 20 MS N G O YE: I t is s u s p ec t C h a ir. O n e w o n d e r s w h a t c o u ld h av e h a p p e ne d a n d o n e is th in k in g a b o u t th e is s u e s o f o n c e a g a in c or r u p tio n a n d ... ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: ( in d is tin c t) MS N G O YE: An d a ll s o r ts . Page 134 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: An d y o u - I w o u ld th in k th a t e v e n if y o u a r e v e r y r ic h if y o u h a v e d o n e w or k th a t e n title s y o u to 1 0 millio n r a n d a mo n th y o u c a n n o t fo r g e t s e n d ing a n in v o ice . MS N G O YE: N o . N o , y o u c a n n o t. Yo u c a n n o t- th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g C h a ir it w a s ju s t b a z aa r fo r u s to s a y, n o w th e r e is th is o th e r th in g . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: An d th e r e is th is o th e r e x p e c ta tio n fr o m PR ASA in te r ms o f p a y me n t r e q u ir e me n ts . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . 10 MS N G O YE: W h ic h w e d id n o t s e e m to s e e . C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u k n o w Mr So n i o r ma y b e Ms N g o y e a s w e ll, if th is h a s n o t b e e n d o ne , it is n e c e s s ar y to g e t so me b o d y in th e r e lev a n t tr a in s ta tio n s w h er e th e ma in te n a nc e w or k w o u ld h a v e b e en d o n e . W h o w o u ld h a v e k n o wn th e ma in te n a n ce w o rk wa s d o n e in th e p a r ticu la r tr a in s ta tio n ? Th a t is a p a r t fo r m s o me b o d y s ta y in g a t h e a d o ff ic e w h o - it w o u ld b e ma d e imp o r ta n t jus t to w h o sa ys , n o , I w a s he r e du r in g th os e ye a rs . Th e r e is n o w a y a n y b o dy w o u ld h a v e co me in h e r e a n d p e r fo r me d ma in te n a n c e wo r k w ith o u t me o r my s ta ff k n o w in g a n d if th e y h a d c o me in my a b s e nc e my s ta ff w o u ld h a v e to ld me . 20 A D V VA S SO N I SC : In d e e d . MS N G O YE: We w ill r e q u e s t th a t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d Mr C h a ir ma n if th a t in te r d ic t a p p lic a tio n n o w b e c o mes q u ite imp o r ta n t a s w e ll ... ( in te r v en e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Page 135 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Be c a u se o n e wo u ld th en s e e wh a t c as e Siy a n ge n a is ma k in g in r e la tio n to . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . So w e n e e d to g e t th o s e p a p er s a s we ll. A D V VA S SO N I SC : So ju s t n o w in r e sp e c t o f th e s e d iffe r e n t p h a s e s y o u in p a r a g r a p h 3 9 w is h to e mp h a s is c e r ta in ma tte r s . W ill y o u d o s o p le a s e to th e C h a ir p e r so n Ms N g oy e ? MS N G O YE: C h a ir p e rs o n in p a r a gr a p h 3 9 I s a y in r e s p e c t o f a ll th e s e c o n tr ac ts ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y, w h a t p a r a g r aph ? 10 MS N G O YE: Pa r a g r a p h 3 9 . C H A IR PER SO N: 3 9 o k a y. MS N G O YE: O f th e s u p p le me n ta r y a ffid a v it. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: I s ta te th a t in a ll th e s e c o n tr a c ts PR ASA w a s s imp ly n o t a u th o r is ed to p r o c e ed w ith th e w o r k c o n te mp la te d in p h a s e 1 a n d ph a s e 2 a n d th e a d d e n d u m. Th e s e tr a ns a c tio ns we r e n o t b u d g e te d fo r a n d n o a p p r ov a ls w er e e ve n o b ta in e d fr o m th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p or t. C H A IR PER SO N: I d o n o k n o w if y o u d e a l w ith th is e ls e w h e r e . Under w h a t c ir c u ms ta n c es w o u ld th e a p p r ov a l o f th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t b e 20 r e q u ir ed ? MS N G O YE: C h a ir pe r so n th e r e is a ma ter ia lity is s u e th a t a p p lie s w ith in s ta te - o w n ed e n te r p r is e s . So b u t a ls o ... ( in t e r v e ne s) C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w h a t is th e ma te r ia lity is s u e ? MS N G O YE: Th e ma te r ia lity in te r ms o f th e a mo u n t o f mo n e y th a t is r e g a rd e d a s ma te r ia l. Bu t w h a t I fo u n d a t PR ASA C h a ir is th a t I a m n o t Page 136 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 s u r e th a t w e a r e d o in g th e ma te r ia lity p r o c es s c or r ec tly. Ta k e fo r e x a mp le r igh t n o w th e ma te r ia lity th a t h a s b e e n id e n tifie d in te r ms o f th e a mo u n t a t PR A SA is s it tin g a t 5 8 mill io n . B u t th e n y o u h a v e th e a u th o r ity o f th e G r o u p C EO a t a 1 0 0 mil lio n . C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. MS N G O YE: H o w I u n d e r s ta nd th e s e wo rk - th e s e to wo r k es p ec ia lly in r e la tio n to my e x p e r ie n c e fr o m Tr a ns n e t wa s th a t y o u w o u ld a g r e e th e ma te r ia lity w ith th e s h a r e h o ld e r. So a n y th in g th a t is a b o v e th e ma te r ia lity th a t y o u w o u ld h a v e a g r e e d w ith th e s h a r e ho ld e r w o u ld th e n h a v e to g o to 10 th e s h a r e h o ld e r fo r a p p ro v a l. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. MS N G O YE: So i f y o u lo o k a t th e s e a mo u nts I me a n I th in k a t o n e p o in t PR ASA w a s s ittin g a t 4 8 millio n a s a ma te r ia lity fr a me w o rk , a n u mb e r th a t w a s in c lud e d in o u r fr a me wo r k . C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. MS N G O YE: Bu t th e a u th o r ity o f th e G r o u p C EO w o u ld h a v e b e e n a b o ve th a t. So e ffe c tiv e ly y o u c o u ld n o t h av e - a nd th is is my s u b mis s ion C h a ir. Yo u c o u ld n o t h a v e a ma te r ia lity fr a me w o r k o f a p a r tic u la r a mo u n t a n d a d e le g a tio n o f a u th o r ity a b o v e th a t ma te r ia lity fr a me w o r k . 20 h a v e w o rk e d lik e th a t. I t s h o u ld n o t An d in a n y e v e n t, a n y th in g a b o v e a b illio n in r e la tio n to w h a t PR ASA w o u ld h a v e in d ic a te d a s a ma te r ia lity fr a me wo rk w o u ld h a ve r e q u ire d th e min is te r ’s a p p r o va l. C H A IR PER SO N: So a r e y o u s ay in g th e po s itio n a s y o u u n d er s ta n d is th a t if a s ta te - o w n e d e n tity is g o in g to c o mmit its e lf fin a n c ia lly b e yo n d a c e r ta in a mo u n t, it n e e d s th e a p p r o v a l o f th e r e le v a n t min is te r. Page 137 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d in th e c a s e o f PR A SA th a t w o u ld b e th e Min is te r o f Tr a ns p o r t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d y o u s a y th e r e fe r e n c e to ma te r ia lity is r e a lly r e fe r s to th a t g r e y w h o le ... ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is s p e c ifie d ... ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: In th e ma te r ia lity fr a me w o r k . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: An d I g u e s s th e r e fe r e nc e to ma te r ia lity mu s t s imp ly me a n s o nc e it r e a c h es a c e r ta in p o in t th e fin a n c ia l c o mmitme n t r e a ch e s a c e r ta in p o in t, it ma t te r s fo r th e s h a r e h o ld er ... ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r e fo r e , y o u mu s t t e ll th e s h a r e h o ld er a n d g e t a p p r ov a l. MS N G O YE: An d a ls o , in te r ms o f a PFMA C h a ir it w o u ld b e .. . ( in te r v en e s) 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Als o , in te r ms o f PFMA . MS N G O YE: Ye s , it w o u ld b e a ma jo r a c q uis itio n fr o m- fo r PR ASA w h ic h h a v e e n te r e d in to th e s e ty p e s o f tr a n s a c tio n s . So PR A SA w a s a c q u ir in g a s s e ts th a t w e r e ma te r ia l. Page 138 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t th e r e q u ir e me n t th a t y o u mu s t o b ta in th e a p p ro v a l o f th e min is te r ma te r ia lity in s ta n c e , is th a t p r o v ide d fo r in th e PFMA? Is it p r o v id e d fo r in s o me o th e r le g a l in s tr u me nt? MS N G O YE: Th e PFMA ta lk s to th a t th e a c q u is itio n o f a s ig n ific a n t a s s e t, r ig h t. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. MS N G O YE: An d w h a t h a p p e n s is th a t fo r y o u to b e a b le to d e te r min e w h a t is ma te r ia l, y o u a g r e e th e fig u r e w ith th e s h a r eh o ld er. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. 10 MS N G O YE: So th a t w o u ld b e in c o r p o r a ted in th e s h a r e h o ld er s co n tr a c t w h ic h in th e a g re e me n t th a t th e min is te r co n c lu d es w ith th e b o a rd . So th a t s h o u ld th e b o a r d - s h o u ld an a mo u n t b e a b o v e th a t w h ic h is a g r e ed w ith th e min is te r a PFMA w o u ld k ic k in . C H A IR PER SO N: Min is te r a p p r o va l mu s t b e o b ta in e d . MS N G O YE: Th e PFMA w o u ld k ic k in a s w e ll C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: We ll th e PF MA ta lk s a b o u t a ma te r ia l . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: A s ig n ific a n t a s s e t, y e s . C H A IR PER SO N: A s ig n ific a n t a s s e t. O h o k a y. MS N G O YE: Ye s . An d th e n ma te r ia lity w o u ld th e n d e te r min e . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , MS N G O YE: R e a lly w h a t w o u ld th e n b e r e g a r d ed a s s ig n ific a n t in th e b ig g e s t s ch e me ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: W h e r e th e o r g a n is a tio n is c o nc e r n ed . C H A IR PER SO N: I th in k Mr So n i if w e c a n g e t th e r e le v a n t ... ( in te r v e n e s) Page 139 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: It is in Se c tio n 5 4 . C H A IR PER SO N: Pr o v is io ns , ja . MS N G O YE: J a , in Se c tio n 5 4 o f th e d o c u me n t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J a o k a y, th a n k y o u . So y o u s a y th e ma te r ia lity th r e s h o ld , if I c a n c a ll it th a t in r e g a rd to a s k be tw e e n th e min is te r a nd PR ASA w a s 4 8 millio n . MS N G O YE: A t th e time C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: At th e time . MS N G O YE: J a . Be c a u s e I th in k w e a r e s ittin g a t 5 0 o d d millio n r a n d . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: So y e s , w e a r e ta lk in g a b ou t b illio n s . MS N G O YE: Th e y w e r e ta lk in g a b ou t b illio n s . It is ju s t to o b ig a n a mo u n t fo r PR ASA n o t to e n g a g e th e min is t e r a n d g e t h is a p p r ov a l. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . O f c o u r s e , in r e g a r d to - w e ll th a t is in r e g a r d to th e w h o le c o n tra c t th e a d d e n du m w o u ld o r w e ll fo r th e w h o le y ea r a d d e n d u m w ou ld h a v e b ee n a b ov e th e - th a t th r e s h o ld . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . An d th e s e th r e s ho lds w o u ld h a ve b e e n w e ll kn o wn o b v io us ly to th e G r o u p C EO . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n Ms N g o y e in y o u r a ffid a v it y o u d e a l w ith c e r ta in fin a n c ia l d e a lin g s b e tw e en PR AS A o ffic ia ls a n d a n a t to r n e y a s s oc ia te d w ith Siy a n g e na . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 140 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : L e t u s ju s t g o b a c k to th e p o in t y o u ma d e e a r lie r a s to w h o w a s d r iv in g th e p r o ce ss ju s t p r io r to p h a s e 1 s ta r tin g . W h o w a s th e PR ASA o ffic ia l a t th e h e a d o f th a t? MS N G O YE: I s p e a k a b o u t Mr G u n jo C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e d e c is io n s th a t w e r e th e r e ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: So r r y w h a t w as Mr G u n jo ’s n a me ? D o y o u k n o w? MS N G O YE: I d o n o t k n o w. C H A IR PER SO N: I h a v e n o t s e e n th e n a me y e t. I ju s t s e e th e s u r n a me . MS N G O YE: ( in d is tin c t) 10 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Ma y b e s o me b od y will lo o k fo r it in th e me a n time . Yo u c a n c o n tin u e . I th in k . .. ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: I k n o w th e n a me b u t I fo r g o t. A D V VA S SO N I SC : C a n I . .. ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: I w ill h a v e to lo o k fo r i t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : I w ill lo o k fo r it. C H A IR PER SO N: It c a n b e fo u n d la te r. I w il l g e t it . MS N G O YE: Ye s . A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w a n d w h o is m a k in g a ll o f th e d e c is io n s in r e la tio n to th e s e c o n tr a c ts ? 20 MS N G O YE: Th e d e c is io n s we r e ma d e b y Mr Mo n ta n a . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e c o n tr a c ts o r th e tr a n s ac tio n s th a t y o u ta lk a b o u t a n d y o u s a y th e y c a u s ed a g ia n t s h a d o w o v e r th e p r o p r ie ty o f th e s e c o n tr ac ts . W h o m d o th e y c o n c er n ? MS N G O YE: Th e y c o n c er n b o th Mr G u n jo an d Mr Mo n ta n a C h a ir. Page 141 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : N o w in y o u fo u n d in g a ffid a v it in th e r e v ie w a p p lic a tio n y o u id en tify th o s e a t p a r a g r a ph 2 1 . Am I c o r r e c t? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : If y o u te ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n v er y b r ie fly - w e ll le t u s s ta r t o ff w ith y in r e g a r d s to Mr Mo n ta n a , h o w ma n y tr a ns a c tio ns d o y o u s a y a re ma tte r s o f c o n c e rn ? MS N G O YE: Fo u r p ro p e r ty tra n sa c tio n s C ha ir p e rs o n th a t w er e p ic k ed u p b y th e in v e s tig a to rs . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d in r e g a r d to Mr G u n jo ? 10 MS N G O YE: Mr G u n jo th e r e is o n e p r o p e r ty th a t w a s p ic k e d u p . A D V VA S SO N I SC : So le t u s s ta r t o ff w ith Mr Mo n ta n a . Th e r e a fo u r y o u s ay. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Bu t y o u id e n tifie d a n d y o u d o n o t h a v e to g iv e to o ma n y d e ta ils b u t if y o u c o u ld jus t te ll th e C h a ir p er so n w h a t th e e ss e nc e o f th o s e c o n tr a c ts ar e a n d w hy th e y p r o mp t c o n ce r n . MS N G O YE: We ll C h a ir p er s o n th es e- w e s ay th e y ar e pr o p er ty tr a n s ac tio n s b e ca u se th e y a r e r e la te d to th e h o u s es th a t Mr Mo n ta n a h a d b o u g h t a t th e time . Th e fir s t tr a n s a c tio n ... ( in te r v en e s) 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u s a id a t th e time . MS N G O YE: A t th e time th e Siy a n g e na c o n tr a c t w as w e w er e ... ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: Th e o r ig in a l o r th e a d d e n du m? MS N G O YE: A ll o f it . C H A IR PER SO N: D u r in g th o s e ye a rs . Page 142 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: D u r in g th o s e y e a rs . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t. MS N G O YE: So . .. ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: An d th a t is 2 0 11 to 2 0 1 5 o r th e r e a b o u t. MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s o k a y. MS N G O YE: Th e in v e s tig a tio n s p ic k u p th a t th e r e is a n u mb e r o f c o n tr ac ts th a t p r o p e r ty d ea lin g s th e Mr Mo n ta n a w a s inv o lv ed in . An d fo u r o f th e s e w e r e id e n tifie d a n d w h a t w a s b a z a ar C h a ir pe rs o n a b o u t 10 th e s e tr a n s a c tio ns w a s- is it h a s b e e n a llu d e d in th e a ff id a v it, w a s th a t y o u h a d an a tto r n e y w h o a t th e time w a s a c o n ve y er o ve r th e a tto r n ey. O n e w o u ld r e g ar d h im as th e a tto r n ey fo r Siy a n g e n a . Wa s th e p e rs o n th a t w a s a s s is tin g Mr Mo n ta n a in th e p r o cu r e me n t o f th e s e c o n tr a c ts o f th e s e p ro p e r tie s . An d w h en y ou lo ok a t th e a mo u n ts inv o lve d C ha ir yo u w o u ld r e c og n is e th a t th e y w e r e s u b s ta n tia l a mo u n ts . Fo r in s ta n c e , o n e o f th e p r o p e r tie s w a s a b o u t 11 millio n r a n d . An d w h a t th e in v e s tig a tio n s p ic k e d u p w a s th a t th e s e p r o p er tie s w er e n ot b o n d e d s o . C H A IR PER SO N: All fo u r o f th e m? MS N G O YE: Th e fir s t o n e w a s . H e b o u g h t th e p r o p e r ty fo r a b illio n - n o t 20 a b illio n , i t is 1 o d d millio n a n d h e s o ld it fo r 6 millio n . So th a t o n e . .. ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: J a , I g u e s s th a t h a s n o is su e o n . MS N G O YE: Ye s . Th e r e w a s o n e fo r a b o u t 11 b illio n ... ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: Millio n . MS N G O YE: I me a n mil lio n , s o r r y C h a ir, n o t b illio n . Millio n . Page 143 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : So r r y. Ms N g o y e ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, le t u s a n s w er th a t. A D V VA S SO N I SC : L e t u s d o it in s ta g e s . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . A D V VA S SO N I SC : O th e r w is e w e a ll- w e a r e g o in g to b e a ll o v er th e p la c e . L e t u s s ta r t o ff w ith p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .4 . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Yo u c a ll th a t th e fir s t tr a n s ac tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: D o e s n o t me n tio n a g a in wh a t .. . ( in te r v e n e s) 10 A D V VA S SO N I SC : SS3 . C H A IR PER SO N: W h ic h b u n d le so th a t if th e y p ic k u p th e tr a n sc r ip t th e y w ill k n o w. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Bu n d le B SS3 B Mr C h a ir p e rs o n a n d a t p a g e 3 5 9 . C H A IR PER SO N: 3 5 9 ? A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: O h , I w a s lo o k in g a t th e - is th a t B a s w e ll? A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s , th e r e is a B1 a n d a B2 C h a ir p e r s on b e c a us e th e Siy a n g e n a imp e ra tiv e s a re a b o u t fo u r o th e r c a s es ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: We ll th is o n e h as B s o it d o e s n o t s ay B1 o r B2 a n d th is 20 o n e is B .. . ( in te r v e n e s ) A D V VA S SO N I SC : I a m g o in g to r e tu r n to y o u a t o n c e C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: J a , w ill y o u c h a n g e th a t q u ic k ly to ma k e s u r e . s u p p os e d to b e th e o n e s th a t s a y s Co u r t App lic a tio n s C on tin u e ? A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th a t is s o . Page 144 of 211 B2 is 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: J a , w ill s o me b o d y ju s t c h e c k th is th in g s o th a t w e d o n o t h a v e to a lw a y s k e e p o n h a v in g to c o r r e c t. So th e b u n d le in w h ic h c o u r t a p p lica tio n s c o mme nc e w ill b e ma r k ed a s Bu n d le B1 . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: An d Bu n d le o r th e le v e r a r c h file w h ic h - in w h ic h c ou r t a p p lic a tio n s c o n tin u e w ill b e ma r ke d a s Bu nd le B2 . A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s , th a t is c o r r e c t C ha ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: J a , le t u s g e t th is s o r te d ou t. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a t p a g e 3 5 9 . A D V VA S SO N I SC : 3 5 9 C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : At p a g e - p a r a g r ap h 2 1.4 Ms N g o y e y o u d e a l w ith th e fir s t tr a n s a c tio n . MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : If y o u c o u ld te ll th e C h a ir p e rs o n b r ie fly w h a t th e c o n ce r n is r e la tin g to th a t tr a n s a c tio n . MS N G O YE: We ll C h a ir p e rs o n in th is tr a n s ac tio n Mr Mo n ta n a , th is r e la te s to a p ro p e r ty in Par kw o o d . Mr Mo n ta n a h a d pu r ch a s ed a p ro p e r ty 20 in 2 0 1 4 fo r 1 .8 millio n . H e th e n s e lls th e p r o p e r ty to Pr e c is e Tra d e . N o w Pr e c is e Tra d e is a c o mp a ny w h er e o n e o f th e d ir e c to rs o f Pr e c is e Tr a d e is th e la w y e r r ep r es e n tin g Siy a n g en a , Mr v a n d e r Wa lt. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm- h mm. MS N G O YE: So o n e - th e is su e s o f c o n flic t a r is e in th a t r eg a r d . Bu t a ls o , in r e s p ec t o f th is p r o p e r ty it w a s v a lu e d a t ju s t o v e r 3 millio n . Page 145 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: H e b o u g h t it fo r 1 . .. . ( in te r v e n es ) MS N G O YE: 1 .8 C H A IR PER SO N: 1 .8 millio n ? MS N G O YE: 1 .8 5 0 millio n , y e s . An d th e n h e s e lls ... ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y. MS N G O YE: It is ( in d is tin c t) o n file C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: I b o u g h t fo r 1 ,8 5 0 in J u ly 2 0 0 8 , is th a t r ig h t? MS N G O YE: O n th e 4 t h o f J u ly. C H A IR PER SO N: 4 t h o f J u ly 2 0 0 8 . 10 MS N G O YE: 2 0 0 8 . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: H e p a y s th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e n y o u s a y h e s o ld it . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: Fo r 6 .8 C H A IR PER SO N: In 2 0 1 4 . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: J a c o n tin u e . MS N G O YE: Fo r 6 .8 C H A IR PER SO N: To th e a tto r n e y w h o r e p res e n te d Siy a n g en a . 20 MS N G O YE: Ye s . Th e c o mp a n y Pr e c is e Tra d e is a c o mp a n y ... ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: So ld to a c o mp a n y. MS N G O YE: Th a t is r ig h t. W h e r e h e is a d ir e c to r. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s . Page 146 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y c on tin u e . MS N G O YE: An d th e p u r c h a s e pr ic e w as 6 .8 ... ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n .. . ( in te r v e n e s) MS N G O YE: Th e r e w a s a p r o fit o f 4 . C H A IR PER SO N: Ab o u t 6 y e a r s a fte r h e h a d b o u g h t it. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: J a o k a y. MS N G O YE: Th e p r o fit fo r th a t a mo u n t w a s ... ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e a mo u n t w a s 6 .8 n o w. 10 MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t w a s - h e ma d e q u ite a g o o d e ffo r t. MS N G O YE: Pr o fit. A D V VA S SO N I SC : 4 .9 5 millio n C h a ir p e r s on . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , a n d i t is o v e r 6 y e a r s. MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s a n d th e - I th in k y ou we r e s ay in g , yo u w an te d to te ll me w h a t th e v a lu e o f th e p r o p e r ty w a s . MS N G O YE: Th e ma r k e t v a lu e a t th e time . C H A IR PER SO N: Mm? 20 MS N G O YE: Th e ma r k e t v a lu e o f th e p r o p e rty a t th e time ... ( in te r v e n e s) C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Wa s 3 .3 millio n . C H A IR PER SO N: 3 .3 millio n . MS N G O YE: Ye s . So Pr e c is e Tr a d e b ou gh t it fo r mu c h mo r e th a n w h a t w a s th e ma r k e t v a lue . Page 147 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: An d th is w a s 5 Ma y 2 0 1 4 . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d w h a t w a s - a n d th e a dd e n d u m w as Ap r il 2 0 1 4 . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: W h e n h e s ign e d th e a d d e n d u m- th e y s ig ne d th e a d d e n d u m. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A IR PER SO N: An d th a t is th e a d d e n d u m th a t . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) MS N G O YE: ( in d is tin c t) C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u c o u ld n o t- PR ASA p e o p le c o u ld n o t fin d . D id n o t k n o w a ny th in g a b o u t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d y o u c a n n o t r e me mb er if th e r e w a s a w itn e ss w ith in PR ASA? MS N G O YE: N o , I c a n n o t r e c a ll C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Fr o m w ith in PR ASA . MS N G O YE: J a . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Mm- h mm. A D V VA S SO N I SC : So if I c a n ju s t id e n tify w h o Mr v a n d e r Wa lt w a s . Ple a s e lo o k a t SS3 B p a g e 3 6 0 - b u nd le B2 SS3 B p a g e 3 6 1 p a r a g ra p h 2 1 .1 0 C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s or r y. I w as s till tr y in g to lo o k fo r th e n a me o f th e p u r c ha s er a t- in p a r a g r ap h 2 1 .5 Page 148 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : O h , s o r r y C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: I c a n n o t s e e th e n a me . Yo u d id me n tio n th e n a me o f a c o mp a ny b u t I c a n n o t s e e it h e r e . MS N G O YE: It is Pr e c is e , Pr e c is e Tra d e C ha ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Mm? Is it in h e r e ? A D V VA S SO N I SC : It is 6 lin e s fr o m th e to p o f th e p a g e . .. ( in te r v e n e s ) C H A IR PER SO N: O h , Pr e c is e Tr a d e . MS N G O YE: Pr e c is e Tr a de C h a irp e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: 10 Ye s , th a n k y o u . An d y ou s a id o n e o f th e d ir ec to r s … ( in te r v en e s) MS N G O YE: Is Mr v a n d e r Wa lt. C H A IR PER SO N: Mr v a n d e r Wa lt. MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Wa s r ep r es e n tin g Siy a n g en a . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: In its tr a n s a c tio ns w ith PR ASA. MS N G O YE: Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d if y o u c o u ld g o to p a r a g r a ph 2 1 .1 0 y o u id e n tify 20 e x a c tly Mr v an d e r Wa lt’s r o le . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. So a t th e time o f th is p a r tic u la r tr a n s ac tio n th a t is r e fle c te d in 2 1 .1 0 in d ic ate s th a t Mr v a n d e r Wa lt w a s th e a tto r n e y fo r Siy a n g e n a . An d Siy a n g e na w a s p e r fo r min g w or k o n th e p h a s e 1 pr o je c t a n d th e n to b e a pp o in te d to p h a s e 2 . So h e w a s inv o lv ed in a d v is in g Siy a ng e n a a t th e time b u t Siy a n g e n a w as … ( in te r v e n es ) Page 149 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N: H o p in g fo r h is r u n n ing p h as e 2 . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . An d y o u s ay h e w as th e s o le d ir ec to r o f Pr ec is e Tr a d e? MS N G O YE: A t th e time C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Is th a t r ig h t? MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: O h y e s , o k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : 10 N o w in th e r e v ie w a p p lic a tio n , w h o r e pr e s en te d Siy a n g e n a ? MS N G O YE: In th e r e v ie w a p p lic a tio n w e h a d a Mr v a n d e r Me r w e , G e r t v a n d e r Me rw e , r e p r es e n tin g Siy a n ge n a . C H A IR PER SO N: We r e Mr v a n d e r Me rw e fro m a d iffe r e n t la w fir m? O r is it th e s a me la w fir m? MS N G O YE: I d o n o t k n o w if th e y w e r e to g e th e r w ith Mr v a n d er Wa lt. Bu t w h a t I k n o w is th a t Mr v a n d e r Me r w e w a s th e a tto r n e y a n d h a s b e e n th e a tto r n e y o f Siy a n g e n a . C H A IR PER SO N: Wa s- w h en y o u sa y h e wa s th e a tto r n e y fo r Siy a n g en a a n d y o u s ay y o u d o n o t k no w w h e th er … ( in te r v e ne s) 20 MS N G O YE: Th e y w e r e in th e s a me c o mp an y. C H A IR PER SO N: H e w a s fr o m th e s a me la w f ir m. In te r ms o f c o r re s po n d e nc e , d o y o u r e me mbe r w h e th er th e r e w a s a c ha n g e o f la w fir ms in r e g a r d to th e in te r d ic t? W h eth e r PR ASA s ta r te d to g e t c o r re s po n d e nc e fr o m a d iffe r e n t la w fir m o r n o t? Page 150 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: N o , th e la w fir m th a t h a s a lw a y s r e pr es e n te d Siy a n g en a … ( in te r v en e s) C H A IR PER SO N: R e ma in s th e s a me . MS N G O YE: Wa s y e s , r e p r es e n te d by th e la w y er Mr G e r t v a n d e r Me rw e . C H A IR PER SO N: An d y o u - Mr v a n d e r Wa lt o r v a n d e r Me r w e . Yo u s a y v a n d e r Me rw e ? MS N G O YE: v a n d e r Me r w e w a s th e a tto r n ey. C H A IR PER SO N: J a MS N G O YE: v a n d e r Wa lt w a s in v o lve d in a s s is tin g Siy a ng e n a . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS N G O YE: Bu t w a s n o t th e a tto r n e y. C H A IR PER SO N: Mr v a n d e r Me r w e . MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Wa s a n a tto r n e y a n d w as n o t c o u n c ilo r in th e in te r d ic t o r is th a t s o me th in g y o u a r e n o t s u re a b o u t? MS N G O YE: In th e in te r d ic t it w a s Mr v an d e r Me rw e th a t r ep r es e n te d Siy a n g e n a . C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t a s c o u n c ilo r o r as th e a tto r n e y ? MS N G O YE: As th e a tto r n e y. 20 C H A IR PER SO N: As th e a tto r n e y. MS N G O YE: As th e a tto r n e y C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O h o k a y. Bu t y o u s a y th e c o r r es p o nd e n ce r e ma in e d w ith th e la w fir m. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: o k a y. Page 151 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Ev e n to d a te . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S SO N I SC : Th e n th e s e c o n d tr a n s ac tio n y o u d ea l w ith a t p a r a gr a p h 2 1 .1 2 on th a t s a me p a g e , pa g e 3 6 1 . W ill y o u te ll th e C h a ir p er so n v e ry b r ie fly w ha t th a t tr a n s a c tio n w a s a b ou t? MS N G O YE: Th is w a s a … ( in te r v e n es ) C H A IR PER SO N: Pa r a g r a p h 2 1 A D V VA S SO N I SC : 2 1 .1 2 C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N: 1 2 , o k a y. 10 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s C h a ir p e r s on . MS N G O YE: Th is w a s a s a le o f p r o p e r ty a t Wa te rk lo o f Pr e to r ia C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d w h a t w a s th e p u r ch a s e p r ic e ? MS N G O YE: Th e p u r c h a se p r ic e wa s 1 0 .5 millio n . C H A IR PER SO N: An d w h o w a s p ur c h as in g , w a s it Mr Mo n ta n a ? MS N G O YE: We ll in te r ms o f 2 1 .1 5 C h a ir y o u r e fe r th a t th e p u r c h a s e p r ic e w as 1 0 .5 . Th e p u r c h a se p r ic e h a d to b e p a id in c a s h . C H A IR PER SO N: 1 0 ,5 millio n r a n d . MS N G O YE: Ye s . I t h a d to b e p a id in c a s h in to a tr u s t a c c o u n t. C H A IR PER SO N: It w a s p a id in c a s h . 20 MS N G O YE: Ye s . In to a tr u s t a c c o u n t o f Va n R e n s b ur g In c Atto r n e ys u p o n s ig n a tu r e o f th e c o n tr a c t. So th e y w e r e th e o n e s th a t w e r e d o in g th e c o n v inc in g o f th e tr a n s a c tio n . Th is p a r tic u la r c o n tr ac t la c ks b e c a us e Mr Mo n ta n a fa ile d to p a y th e p u r c h a s e p r ic e. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Page 152 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I SC : Ye s b u t th e n if y o u loo k a t p a r ag r a ph 2 1 .1 6 th e las t s e n te n ce th e r e . MS N G O YE: In r e la tio n to th e s a me p r o p e r ty, y e s Mr Mo n ta n a th e n a g r e e d to p a y a n o n- r e fu n da b le d ep o s it o f 3 .5 millio n w h ic h w a s s u b se q u e n tly p a id . A D V VA S SO N I SC : An d th e n 2 1 .1 7 te lls y o u w h o th e s a le a gr e e me n t w a s b e tw ee n . MS N G O YE: Ye s . So th e s a le a g r ee me nt C h a ir w as b e twe e n An ma n i r e p r es e n te d b y Ms D e Be e r a n d Min o r Pr o p e r ty Tr u s t r e p r es e n te d b y Mr 10 J o h a n Smith a tr u s te e . Th e be n e fic ia r ie s of th e Min o r Pr o p e r ty Tr u s t ar e th e c h ild r e n o f Mr Mo n ta n a . So th e p u r c h a se p r ic e w as 11 millio n . A D V VA S SO N I SC : I t w e n t u p to R 3 . 5 m i lli o n th a t h a s o r i g i n a l ly b e e n t h e e x p e c te d p u r c h a s e p r i c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I a m g e tt i n g c o n fu s e d . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n i ti a lly – w e ll t h e r e w a s a r e f e r e n c e t o R 1 0 . 5 m il li o n being the purchase. A n d th e n y o u s a i d th a t a g r e e m e n t f e ll t h r o u g h b e c a u s e M r M o y a n e – M r M o n t a n a f a i le d to p a y t h e p u r c h a s e p r ic e . B u t h e h a d a g r e e d t o p a y a n o n - r e fu n d a b l e d e p o s it o f R 3 . 5 m i ll i o n 20 w h ic h w a s p a i d . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o w t h e – 2 0 – p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 1 7 ta lk s a b o u t R 11 m il li o n a n d a s a le a g r e e m e n t . Is t h a t in r e g a r d t o t h e s a m e p r o p e r ty ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: So there was a new agreement? Page 153 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e p r e v i o u s a g r e e m e n t h a d b e e n b e tw e e n Mr M o n ta n a a n d t h e s e l le r a n d t h i s o n e i n v o lv e d tr u s t . M S N G O Y E : W e l l i t – y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t ? MS NGOYE: W e ll th is o n e b e c a u s e w a s – t h e p u r c h a s e r b e c a m e th e tr u s t . CHAIRPERSON: ja. MS NGOYE: 10 A n d w h a t w e f o u n d o u t w a s t h a t tr u s t b e l o n g e d t o M r M o n ta n a ’s c h i ld r e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : S o t h e c o n n e c ti o n t h a t is m a d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : I s t h a t y o u k n o w i t w a s in r e l a ti o n t o h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d w a s th e r e a d e p o s it t o b e p a i d f o r th is o r ( in d is ti n c t) . M S N G O Y E : T h e R 3 .5 h e r p a id . O n 2 0 1 . 1 8 C h a ir p e r s o n o n p a g e 3 6 3 w e in d ic a t e t h a t th e b a l a n c e o f t h e R 7 . 5 m il li o n w a s p a i d b y P r e c i s e Tr a d e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second. A m I r ig h t t o s a y t h e R 1 0 . 5 m il li o n w a s th e s u b j e c t o f a c e r t a i n a g r e e m e n t w h ic h in v o lv e d Mr M o n ta n a a s o n e o f th e p a r t i e s ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t la p s e d ? M S N G O Y E : I t la p s e d b e c a u s e h e c o u l d n o t r a is e t h e f u n d i n g . Page 154 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e h a d p a i d R 3 . 5 mi l li o n t h a t w a s n o t r e fu n d a b l e . M S N G O Y E : W h e n i t w a s r e v is e d . T h e tr a n s a c ti o n w a s r e v is e d . CHAIRPERSON: O h t h e y p a id w h e n a n o t h e r – a n e w a g r e e m e n t w a s entered into. M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o t h e s a m e p r o p e r ty. MS NGOYE: That is right. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o w n o t w i t h M o n t – M r M o n ta n a a s s u c h b u t w i t h a t r u s t – w i t h h is tr u s t. 10 M S N G O Y E : W i t h h is c h i l d r e n ’s tr u s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e t h e c h il d r e n w e r e b e n e fic i a r i e s . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – b u t w a s t h a t R 3 – s o h e p a i d t h e R 3 . 5 m i ll io n w h e n th e y h a v e t o d e a l w i t h th e s e c o n d tr a n s a c ti o n – w i t h t h e agreement involving his trust? MS NGOYE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d t h e n a t t h e t o p t h e fi r s t agreement was forR10.5. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : A n d th e n th is o n e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s f o r R 11 m il li o n . M S N G O Y E : W e n t u p t o R 11 – y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. So – but then 21.18 you say he says the b a l a n c e – I g u e s s th e b a l a n c e a ft e r t h e R 3 . 5 m i ll io n . MS NGOYE: That is right. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b a la n c e in a n a m o u n t o f R 7 . 5 m i ll io n w a s p a id b y Page 155 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 P r e c is e Tr a d e M r S m i t h t h e n r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t b e a l t e r e d t o r e fl e c t Pr e c is e Tr a d e a s t h e p u r c h a s e r. O k a y ta lk t o m e a b o u t th a t ? M S N G O Y E : C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: What is happening there? M S N G O Y E : T h e s e ( i n d i s t i n c t) a r e v e r y c o m p l e x C h a ir a n d I a m g o i n g t o s p e a k to w h a t i s c o n ta in e d in t h e – in t h e f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t . S o – s o w h a t i f y o u r e c a ll Pr e c is e Tr a d e o n e o f t h e d ir e c t o r s i n Pr e c is e Tr a d e is a n a t to r n e y f o r Si y a n g e n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Va n D e r W a l t . 10 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : N o w w h e n th is p a r tic u la r tr a n s a c ti o n h a p p e n s M r M o n ta n a c a n o n l y r a is e R 3 . 5 n o n - r e fu n d a b le h e a c c e p t e d i t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S N G O Y E : I t b e c o m e s b i z a r r e t h a t th e b a l a n c e o f t h e tr a n s a c t i o n is p a i d b y t h e P r e c i s e Tr a d e e n t i ty. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S N G O Y E : W h e r e y o u k n o w y o u h a v e t h e l a w y e r f o r – f o r S iy a n g e n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MS NGOYE: B e in g y o u k n o w t h e s o l e d i r e c t o r p a y i n g th e b a la n c e o f t h is p r ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS NGOYE: Yo u k n o w s o I m e a n w h e n y o u l o o k a t i t ( i n d is t in c t ) a n d t h e n a l s o y o u k n o w t h e n t h e y r e q u e s t t o h a v e th e p r o p e r t y n o w t h e p u r c h a s e r b e i n g c h a n g e d to P r e c i s e Tr a d e . Page 156 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : Mr M o n ta n a p a id R 3 . 5 . CHAIRPERSON: The deposit ja. MS NGOYE: J a a n d t h e n y o u k n o w t h e b a l a n c e is p a id a n d th a t c o m p a n y w a s – th e p r o p e r ty w a s i n t e n d e d f o r th e b e n e fic i a r y – h is b e n e fic i a r i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS NGOYE: B u t n o w y o u k n o w P r e c is e Tr a d e ta k e s o v e r t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n a n d c o m p l e t e s i t a n d i t is t h e n r e g is t e r e d a s t h e p u r c h a s e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. S o u l t i m a te ly i t w a s r e g is t e r e d a s P r e c i s e Tr a d e ’s p r o p e r ty ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d I s e e t h is w a s h a p p e n in g i n 2 0 1 4 ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e y e a r ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r S o n i . M S N G O Y E : 2 1 . 1 9 C h a ir y o u k n o w in d ic a t e s t h a t o n t h e 2 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 M s D e B e e r m e t M r M o n t a n a a t th e p r o p e r ty. M s D e B e e r a n d Mr 20 M o n ta n a d i d t h e w a lk a b o u t a n d t h e k e y s w e r e h a n d e d t o M r M o n t a n a o f t h a t p r o p e r ty w h e r e P r e c is e Tr a d e h a d p a i d t h e b a l a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p r o p e r ty t h a t w a s – t h a t w a s n o w r e g i s te r e d in t h e n a m e o f Pr e c is e Tr a d e ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e k e y w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o M r M o n ta n a .\ Page 157 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : To M r M o n t a n a y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d j u s t f o r c o m p l e t e n e s s s a k e in p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .1 8 there is a reference to Mr Smith. Who was Mr Smith? MS NGOYE: I cannot recall. A D V VA S S O N I S C : H e w a s t h e tr u s t e e . I f y o u lo o k a t … CHAIRPERSON: I think… MS NGOY E: Oh yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p r e v i o u s p a g e . 10 MS NGOYE: J a i n t h e p r e v io u s p a g e . H e w a s a tr u s te e o f t h e c h i l d r e n ’s tr u s t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n I – h a v e y o u g o t a r e a s o n a b l e p ic t u r e o f t h e s e c o n d tr a n s a c t io n h e r e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I th i n k s o i n s o f a r a s o n e c a n g e t . J a s o – s o i t e n d s – it s t a r ts b e i n g – i t s ta r t s w i t h a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e p u r c h a s e r i s M r M o n t a n a ’s tr u s t a n d t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s o f t h e t r u s t a r e M r M o n t a n a ’s children. M S N G O Y E : C h i l d r e n y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r M o n t a n a p a y s R 3 . 5 m i ll io n . 20 M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And as a deposit and then an arrangement is made in t e r m s o f w h ic h Pr e c is e Tr a d e p a y s . MS NGOYE: Pays the balance. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b a l a n c e o f R 7 . 5 m ill i o n . MS NGOYE: 5. Page 158 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s r e g is t e r e d i n M r … M S N G O Y E : I n P r e c is e Tr a d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : In P r e c is e Tr a d e ’s n a m e . M S N G O Y E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o n th e 2 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 … M S N G O Y E : T h e k e y s w e r e g iv e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e k e y s fo r t h e p r o p e r t y a r e g i v e n t o M r M o n ta n a M S N G O Y E : Mr M o n ta n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : M o n t a n a . N o w w h o k n o w s t h is ? 10 M S N G O Y E : T h is w a s p ic k e d u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o k n o w s th a t t h is i s t h e p o s i ti o n ? M S N G O Y E : T h is w a s p ic k e d u p b y th e – b y th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : W h e n t h e f o r e n s i c i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w e r e d o n e a n d th e r e w a s a f o l lo w th r o u g h o n t h e s e tr a n s a c t i o n s i t r e v e a l e d th a t t h is is w h a t h a d happened. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o w h a t I w a n t – b u t w h a t I w a n t to k n o w i s , h o w d o t h e y c o m e a c r o s s is i t b e c a u s e t h e y i n t e r v ie w e d M s D e B e e r a n d g o t a s ta t e m e n t fr o m h e r ? Is i t b e c a u s e t h e y c a m e a c r o s s a le t t e r i n s o m e 20 fi le w h e r e s o m e b o d y r e fe r s t o th e fa c t t h a t Ms D e B e e r a n d Mr M o n ta n a h a d a w a lk th r o u g h in s p e c t i o n a n d t h a t M s D e B e e r h a n d e d M r M o n ta n a t h e k e y s t h a t is w h a t I w a n t t o c o n f ir m ? M S N G O Y E : C h a ir i t is p o s .. . CHAIRPERSON: I t is u n li k e th e tr a n s a c ti o n s y o u k n o w p u r c h a s e a g r e e m e n t t h a t c a n b e fo u n d i n d o c u m e n ts a n d w h o t h e p u r c h a s e r w a s , Page 159 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 w h a t th e d e p o s it w a s ? W h o h a s t h i s k n o w l e d g e – p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f i t? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr C h a i r p e r s o n c a n I – I d o n o t w a n t t o g i v e evidence but I thought if I could… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s s is t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t w i ll s h o r te n th e i n q u ir i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : I n th e a n s w e r in g a ffi d a v i t S iy a n g e n a d e a ls w i th these matters. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o t i n d e ta il . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d I a m g o i n g t o t a k e t h e w i t n e s s to th o s e t o b e answered. B u t i n a d d i ti o n M r M o n t a n a f i le s a n a ffi d a v it w h ic h is n o t p a r t o f t h e p a p e r s s o w e w i ll lo o k a t t h a t t o s e e w h a t h is a n s w e r i s to e a c h o f t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . B u t – w e l l i f th is i s t a k e n fr o m a c e r ta in a ffi d a v it 20 t h e n i t i s f i n e if I a m to l d i t is in s o m e b o d y ’s a ffi d a v i t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o , n o i t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : It is 2 1 . 1 9 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t is p a r t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n b u t t h e p o in t I a m Page 160 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 tr y i n g t o m a k e C h a i r p e r s o n i s t h a t w e d o h a v e S i y a n g e n a ’s v e r s io n s o n these matters. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e d i s p u t e i s q u it e n a r r o w i n respect. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M a y b e le t m e g o b a c k to – t o y o u a s a w i t n e s s b e c a u s e th is is y o u r a ff id a v i t. M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. B u t t h i s is ( in d is ti n c t) a ffi d a v i t I m u s t s a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll s a y o n th is d a te M s D e B e e r m e t M r M o n t a n a 10 a t t h e p r o p e r t y. M S N G O Y E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M s D e B e e r a n d M r M o n ta n a c a r r i e d o u t a w a lk t h r o u g h i n s p e c ti o n o f t h e h o u s e a n d Ms D e B e e r h a n d e d t h e k e y s t o Mr M o n ta n a . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th is i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t. M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e li g h t o f t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t t o l d u s t h a t t h e h o u s e w a s r e g is t e r e d i n P r e c is e Tr a d e ’s n a m e . 20 M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r in i ti a l ly t h e p u r c h a s e r h a d b e e n … M S N G O Y E : Mr M o n ta n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o n t a n a o r h is tr u s t . M S N G O Y E : H is tr u s t , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: H is tr u s t . So now who – do you have personal Page 161 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 k n o w l e d g e o f th is ? M S N G O Y E : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t h a v e ? MS NGOYE: Not personal knowledge. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS NGOYE: T h i s is – t h is i s w h a t y o u k n o w w a s p a r t o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ( i n d i s t i n c t) . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is w h a t i s i n r e c o r d s th a t P R A S A h a s . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t c a m e fr o m t h e in v e s ti g a to r s . MS NGOYE: F o l lo w in g the i n v e s ti g a ti o n – th e work that th e in v e s t i g a t o r s h a d d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t d o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e ir s o u r c e o f in f o r m a ti o n w a s ? MS NGOYE: T h e in v e s ti g a t o r s w e n t o u t C h a ir t o i n te r v i e w y o u k n o w t h e v a r i o u s p e o p l e th a t t h e y p ic k e d u p a s b e i n g p e o p l e w h o w e r e m e n ti o n e d in t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e y fo u n d i n r e l a ti o n to t h e p r o p e r ti e s y o u k n o w. S o t h a t w o r k a ll o w e d t h e m t o b e a b le t o a p p r o a c h d i ffe r e n t in d i v i d u a ls a n d a s k th e m e x a c t ly w h a t tr a n s p i r e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t is n o t s a t is fa c t o r y. S o I n e e d s o m e b o d y to c h e c k w h a t w a s t h e b a s i s o n w h ic h t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s s a i d o n t h is d a t e M s D e B e e r a n d – m e t M r M o n t a n a a t t h e p r o p e r ty a n d M s D e B e e r a n d M r M o n t a n a c a r r i e d o u t a w a lk t h r o u g h i n s p e c ti o n o f th e h o u s e a n d M s D e B e e r h a n d e d t h e k e y s to M r M o n t a n a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Page 162 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: A n d I g u e s s M s D e B e e r w h o e v e r s h e is c a n b e in t e r v ie w e d o r m a y h a v e b e e n i n t e r v ie w e d t o s a y w h a t d o e s s h e k n o w a b o u t t h a t. M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : J a . C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e t o s a y y o u k n o w b e c a u s e I a m t h e deponent of t h is and o b v i o u s ly some of the in f o r m a t io n was c o m m u n ic a te d to m e s o I d o n o t h a v e d ir e c t k n o w l e d g e o f s o m e o f th e is s u e s h e r e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : A n d i t w o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h a c c o r d i n g l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : Yo u k n o w b y th e l a w y e r s in t h e m a t t e r b e f o r e c o u r t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o y o u m a y h a v e s a i d a t t h e b e g in n in g o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u a r e n o t r e l y i n g o n y o u r p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r e ly o n s o m e r e c o r d s b u t i f y o u – i f y o u w e r e a b l e t o s a y, I s a i d t h i s h e r e b e c a u s e i n t h e r e c o r d s t h a t w e h a v e a t PRASA. 20 M S N G O Y E : I n th e d o c u m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: I c a m e a c r o s s a s t a te m e n t b y M s D e B e e r o r Mr M o n ta n a th a t s a i d t h is th e n I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d th a t . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : T h e r e i s c o p ie s – t h e r e is a n n e x u r e s C h a ir. Page 163 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : To th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t in d i c a t e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : Yo u k n o w e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : T h a t w a s p ic k e d u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : T h r o u g h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Is t h e r e – is i t y o u r c o n c l u s i o n th a t y o u r e a c h e d based on … M S N G O Y E : T h o s e e m a i ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o n e m a il s e x c h a n g e d b e tw e e n w h o a n d w h o ? M s De Beer? M S N G O Y E : Ms D e B e e r. CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Montana. MS NGOYE: And Mr Montana yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h o s e – t h o s e a r e w i t h i n th e r e c o r d s o f P R A S A ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s t h e y a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e f ir s t t h i n g t o l o o k fo r a n d m a k e a v a i la b le 20 a n d – a n d b u t a p a r t fr o m t h e e m a il s I t h i n k M r – Ms D e B e e r s h o u ld b e a p p r o a c h e d fo r a n a ff i d a v i t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. T h a n k y o u . I t i s j u s t t h a t i t i s – i t is v e r y s tr a n g e b e c a u s e n o w th e k e y s g e t g iv e n t o … M S N G O Y E : To M r M o n t a n a . Page 164 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: To Mr M o n t a n a a t a ti m e w h e n in te r m s o f t h e d o c u m e n ts h e is s u p p o s e d to h a v e n o th i n g to d o w i th t h is h o u s e . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : P r e v i o u s l y i f it w a s a t a ti m e w h e n t h e p u r c h a s e r w a s the… M S N G O Y E : T h e tr u s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr u s t t h e n o n e w o u ld u n d e r s t a n d . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t h a s b e e n s u g g e s t e d t h a t P r e c is e Tr a d e . 10 M S N G O Y E : Pr e c is e Tr a d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld b e t h e p u r c h a s e r n o w. MS NGOYE: P r e c is e Tr a d e n o w is th e p u r c h a s e r – t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w o n e e x p e c ts s o m e b o d y fr o m P r e c is e Tr a d e to receive the keys. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And not Mr Montana. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 2 2 y o u d e a l w i t h th e t h ir d tr a n s a c ti o n a n d w h e r e is th a t p r o p e r ty s it u a te d ? M S N G O Y E : T h is tr a n s a c ti o n is a p r o p e r ty in S a n d h u r s t C h a i r p e r s o n . 1 9 9 E m p ir e P la c e in S a n d h u r s t . CHAIRPERSON: tr a n s a c ti o n . I a m s o r r y j u s t t o r o u n d o ff t h e – t h e s e c o n d A s t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g b u y i n g o f p r o p e r ty, Page 165 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 d e c i d i n g w h o is g o i n g t o b e th e p u r c h a s e r, M r M o n t a n a ’s tr u s t o r … M S N G O Y E : Pr e c is e … C H A I R P E R S O N : P r e c is e Tr a d e o r w h o S i y a n g e n a w a s c o n t in u in g t o d o work M S N G O Y E : Fo r P R A S A . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r P R A S A . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d j u s t a g a i n i n c o n te x t th a t w a s e n d e d i n 2 0 1 6 or 2017 Ms Ngoye? T h e – t h a t is w h e n th e i n te r d ic t c a m e w h e n h e ( in d is ti n c t) M S N G O Y E : Ye s t h a t is w h e n t h e i n te r d ic t – t h a t is r ig h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o 2 0 1 4 c e r t a i n l y … M S N G O Y E : W a s th e – w a s i n t h e p r o c e s s w h e n S iy a n g e n a w a s d o i n g w o r k fo r P R A S A . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w in r e l a ti o n to t h e t h ir d tr a n s a c ti o n s t a r ti n g a t p a r a g r a p h 3 1 . 2 2 in t h e th ir d s e n t e n c e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s e t o u t 20 w h e r e y o u g o t t h is i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C o u l d y o u t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e t h is in f o r m a ti o n is fr o m ? MS NGOYE: S o i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y C h a ir t h e f a c t s r e l a ti n g to t h i s tr a n s a c t i o n w e r e c o n t a i n e d in a s w o r n s t a t e m e n t b y a Mr Page 166 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 L o u is G r e e n a n e s t a t e a g e n t t h a t w a s e m p l o y e d b y P a m G o l d i n g I n v e s t m e n t s w h o w a s in s t r u c t e d b y Mr C o l le r a n d – t o s e l l t h e p r o p e r ty in S a n d h u r s t d u r in g a b o u t t h e m i d d le o f 2 0 1 4 . S o th a t s t a te m e n t is a tt a c h e d t o th e p a p e r s th a t a r e in c o u r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e w il l o b v i o u s ly g e t a c o p y o f t h a t s t a te m e n t . N o w in b r i e f w h a t w a s t h e is s u e i n r e g a r d t o t h is p r o p e r ty ? M S N G O Y E : M r M o n t a n a m a d e a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e in S a n d h u r s t i n th e a m o u n t o f R 1 3 . 9 m il li o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s – y o u s a y i n 2 0 – A p r il o f 2 1 .2 3 . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I n r e g a r d to t h is p r o p e r ty o n o r a b o u t 2 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 M r M o n t a n a v is i te d t h e s h o w d a y – w e l l y o u s t a r t b y s a y i n g t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r ty h a d b e e n p l a c e d o n s h o w o n s e v e r a l o c c a s io n s . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n o r a b o u t 2 6 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 M r M o n ta n a v is i te d t h e s h o w d a y a n d e x p r e s s e d a n in t e r e s t i n p u r c h a s i n g t h e a f o r e s a id p r o p e r ty. Yo u s a y M r M o n ta n a m a d e a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r ty in a n a m o u n t o f R 1 3 . 9 m il li o n . 20 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e o ff e r w a s a c c e p te d b y th e s e ll e r o n t h e 2 8 October 2014. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . Page 167 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t th a t is c o n t a i n e d in paragraph 21.24? M S N G O Y E : S o o n th e 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 M r G r e e n r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l fr o m M r Va n D e r W a l t . M r Va n D e r W a l t is P r e c is e Tr a d e . A letter fr o m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr G r e e n a g a i n is t h e – t h a t is th e e s ta t e a g e n t ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . Fr o m P a m – P a m G o ld i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m P a m G o ld i n g . MS NGOYE: 10 S o h e r e c e iv e s a n e m a i l fr o m M r Va n D e r W a l t a n d th e le t t e r i s a l s o a t t a c h e d C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e r e i s a n u m b e r o f e m a il s t h a t a r e a l s o a t t a c h e d t o t h e – t o t h e a ffi d a v i t . In th e l e t t e r t h e a t to r n e y s c o n fir m e d t h a t t h e y h a d R 5 m i ll io n in tr u s t – i n a tr u s t a c c o u n t w i t h I n v e s te c B a n k . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . MS NGOYE: A n d o n th e 7 N o v e m b e r M r G r e e n r e c e i v e d a f u r t h e r e m a i l . Th is i s t h e … . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d . H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d . T h i s Mr Va n D e r W a l t is t h a t t h e s a m e a s t h e a t to r n e y f o r … M S N G O Y E : Si y a n g e n a . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S iy a n g e n a . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o th e e s t a t e a g e n t in r e g a r d t o th e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r ty r e c e iv e s a n e m a i l f r o m M r Va n D e r Wa l t o n th e 6 N o v e m b e r. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d – a n d t h e n t h e r e i s a tr a i l o f e m a i ls a n d i n th e Page 168 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 le t t e r Mr Va n D e r Wa l t c o n f ir m e d th a t t h e y h a d R 5 m il li o n i n a tr u s t a c c o u n t w i t h In v e s t e c . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e . MS NGOYE: S o o n t h e 7 N o v e m b e r – s o e ff e c t iv e ly t h i s tr a n s a c t io n was dealt with you know… CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y I t h i n k le t u s g o to t h e e m a i ls b e c a u s e I w a n t to k n o w w h a t w a s t h e le t t e r s a y i n g a p a r t fr o m – o r i s t h a t a l l t h a t it w a s s a y in g th a t th e y h a d t h a t R 5 m i ll io n in t h a t a c c o u n t ? 10 M S N G O Y E : N o – i n t h e tr u s t a c c o u n t ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a i a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i t w a s s a y i n g M S N G O Y E : W e l l y e s th a t is w h a t w e t h o u g h t w a s i m p o r t a n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. M S N G O Y E : S o o n th e 7 t h … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t – w h a t I a m w a n ti n g t o c o n n e c t is w h o is h e a c ti n g f o r n o w w h e n h e w r i t e s t o Mr G r e e n – Mr Va n D e r W a l t ? M S N G O Y E : O u r v i e w t h a t h e is a c t in g fo r M r M o n t a n a . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o e s i t s a y i n th e l e tt e r, i n th e e m a i l o r n o t ? M S N G O Y E : W e l l C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember? M S N G O Y E : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i f it s a y s b u t i f y o u lo o k a t th e in t e r e s t w a s s h o w n b y M r M o n ta n a a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 169 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 M S N G O Y E : I n r e la t io n t o t h i s p r o p e r ty a n d w h e n y o u l o o k a t y o u k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g d u r i n g t h e t r a n s a c t io n s w i t h S i y a n g e n a a t th e ti m e y o u k n o w t h e – w h a t b e c a m e b iz a r r e w a s th a t t h e a tt o r n e y s n o w o f S iy a n g e n a w e r e y o u k n o w a s s is t in g Mr M o n ta n a i n c o n c lu d in g t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e th e s e e m a i l s h e r e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e d o n o t h a v e t h e m h e r e C h a ir. B u t w e w i ll – they are attached to – or on the… M S N G O Y E : To th e p a p e r s . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A t t a c h e d t o t h e f o u n d in g a ff i d a v i t a lr e a d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a th e y a r e n e c e s s a r y b e c a u s e t h e s e b i ts a n d p i e c e s they can become very important. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w b u t y o u s a y y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r in t h a t e m a i l Mr Va n D e r W a l t d o e s s a y e x p r e s s ly w h o h e is a c ti n g f o r ? M S N G O Y E : N o I d o n o t r e c a l l C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e c a ll th a t ? MS NGOYE: No. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t d o y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .2 5 ? 20 MS NGOYE: T h e r e w a s a n o t h e r i n s tr u c ti o n o n 2 1 .2 5 o n th e 7 t h Mr G r e e n r e c e iv e d a f u r th e r e m a il f r o m M r Va n D e r Wa l t t o w h ic h w a s a tt a c h e d a p r o o f o f p a y m e n t. S o M r Va n D e r Wa l t s e n d s t h is e m a il t o M r G r e e n i n to a tr u s t a c c o u n t o f P a m G o l d i n g f o r a n d o n b e h a l f o f M r M o n ta n a . S o i n t h e n e x t – i n th e n e x t – t h e f ir s t e m a il I w a s a l lu d in g t o t h e fa c t t h a t I – I a m n o t s u r e t h a t h e m e n ti o n e d t h a t h e w a s a c ti n g o n Page 170 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 behalf of Mr Montana. But when the payment was made you know he t h e n r e fl e c ts t h a t i t i s m a d e o n b e h a lf o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t b e c a m e c l e a r. M S N G O Y E : Ye s i t b e c o m e s c le a r e r n o w t h a t h e is a c t i n g o n b e h a l f o f Mr Montana. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S N G O Y E : S o t h e r e is a tt a c h in g th e p r o o f o f p a y m e n t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n s n e x t ? M S N G O Y E : A n d th e n o n t h e 2 5 N o v e m b e r … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d id n o t g e t – y o u d i d n o t g e t a c o p y o f t h e a g r e e m e n t i n r e g a r d t o th is o n e ? M S N G O Y E : I n r e l a ti o n t o th is p r o p e r ty ? CHAIRPERSON: I see there has not been a reference to the agreement. MS NGOYE: No, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s a lr i g h t. M S N G O Y E : A n d th e n a g a in i n th e s a m e m o n th C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e 2 4 N o v e m b e r M r G r e e n t h e e s t a te a g e n t r e c e iv e d a n o t h e r l e tt e r fr o m Mr Va n D e r W a l t c o n fir m i n g a n i n s tr u c ti o n f r o m h is c li e n t Mr M o n t a n a s o i t 20 b e c o m e s c le a r e r n o w t h a t Mr Va n D e r Wa l t i s a ls o a c ti n g f o r M r M o n ta n a w h e r e Mr M o n t a n a h a s a s k e d t h a t t h e b u y e r b e c h a n g e d t o P r e c is e Tr a d e . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o i n r e g a r d t o t h is tr a n s a c ti o n th e – t h e id e a t h a t th e p u r c h a s e r s h o u l d b e P r e c is e Tr a d e e m e r g e s … M S N G O Y E : Fr o m M r M o n t a n a . Page 171 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a in . M S N G O Y E : Ye s i t d o e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d n o w Mr Va n D e r Wa l t s a y s t h a t c o m e s fr o m Mr Montana. MS NGOYE: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: I n r e g a r d t o t h e s e c o n d tr a n s a c ti o n i t w a s s a i d t o h a v e c o m e fr o m M r S m i t h w h o w a s a tr u s te e . M S N G O Y E : Ye s w h o w a s a t r u s t e e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O f M r M o n ta n a ’s tr u s t? 10 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t o n t h e q u e s t io n o f M r M o n ta n a ’s in t e r e s t i n t h is p r o p e r ty w o u l d y o u r e a d w h a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 2 9 s a y s M s N g o y e ? MS NGOYE: “Mr Montana” A D V VA S S O N I S C : O f – s o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. W e ll t h a t la s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 21.26 seems important. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u w a n t to d e a l w it h th a t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e la s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .2 6 . M S N G O Y E : S o t h e l e tt e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : D r a f t e d b y M r Va n D e r W a l t . Page 172 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : In s tr u c te d M r G r e e n w h o w a s t h e e s t a t e a g e n t t o a ll o c a te t h e d e p o s i t p a i d o n b e h a l f o f M r M o n ta n a t o Pr e c is e Tr a d e . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e s i tu a ti o n is t h a t M r M o n t a n a v i s i t e d t h e p r o p e r ty d u r in g o n e o f t h e s h o w d a y s , lik e d i t , s u b s e q u e n t ly m a d e a n o ffe r w h ic h m u s t h a v e b e e n a c c e p t e d a n d h e p a id a n a m o u n t o f R 5 m il li o n … MS NGOYE: W h a t w e a r e to l d C h a ir is t h a t th a t a m o u n t c o m e s – y o u k n o w t h e a t to r n e y s Va n D e r W a lt . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS NGOYE: I s t h e o n e t h a t c o n fir m s th a t t h a t a m o u n t w a s s i t t in g i n t h e ir tr u s t a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s s o – b u t w h a t I a m s a y i n g i s , th is a m o u n t is p a i d e it h e r o n h i s b e h a l f o r b y h i m b u t i t g o e s v i a Va n D e r Wa l t? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Attorneys. MS NGOYE: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: B u t a t th a t s ta g e t h e p a y m e n t is b e i n g m a d e o n b e h a l f o f M r M o n ta n a b e c a u s e h e is g o i n g t o p u r c h a s e t h e p r o p e r ty ? 20 M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n l a t e r o n M r Va n D e r W a l t s a y s M r M o n t a n a h a s s a i d t h e p u r c h a s e r s h o u l d b e Pr e c is e Tr a d e ? M S N G O Y E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o m p a n y w h o s e s o l e d ir e c t o r i s M r Va n D e r Wa l t . M S N G O Y E : Mr Va n D e r W a l t . Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 173 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: And the same company that … MS NGOYE: Had been doing work. C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o t h e s e c o n d t r a n s a c ti o n . MS NGOYE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d ta k e n o v e r … M S N G O Y E : T h a t p r o p e r ty a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p r o p e r ty a s w e ll . M S N G O Y E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d t h e n n o w M r Va n D e r Wa l t s a y s t o t h e e s t a t e a g e n t, t h a t R 5 mi ll i o n t h a t – t h e y h a d a lr e a d y p a id i t o r n o t ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t th e y h a d p a i d a l r e a d y to th e e s t a t e a g e n t i t s h o u l d n o w b e t a k e n a s a d e p o s i t f o r P r e c i s e Tr a d e . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t is n o t s o m e t h in g o n e c o m p r e h e n d s u n l e s s o n e reads it over … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u h a v e g o t t o . .. MS NGOYE: Ja you have got to… 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr y fo ll o w i t h e r e . M S N G O Y E : J a y o u h a v e t o g o th r o u g h it o v e r a n d o v e r a g a i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S N G O Y E : To u n d e r s t a n d w h a t a c tu a l ly h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 2 8 y o u w i ll s e e t h a t Page 174 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e s e ll e r M r C o ll e r. M S N G O Y E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e r e is c o m m u n ic a t io n to – w i t h M r M o n t a n a . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e r e a d t h a t in t o th e r e c o r d M s N g o y e ? MS NGOYE: S o n o w th e p r o p e r t y w a s s ig n e d o n b e h a lf o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e b u t M r C o l l e r, th e s e l le r r i g h t a d d r e s s e d a n e m a il t o M r M o n t a n a a s k in g h i m t o i n d ic a te w h e th e r h e h a d a n y i n t e r e s t i n t a k i n g o c c u p a t i o n o f t h e p r o p e r t y b e f o r e tr a n s f e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n d o e s t h is h a p p e n in r e la t io n t o t h e f i n a li s a t io n 10 o f t h e tr a n s a c t io n ? M S N G O Y E : T h e s e ll e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s i s th a t a r o u n d t h e t i m e w h e n M r Va n D e r Wa l t w r i t e s a n d s a y s t a k e t h a t R 5 m il li o n t o b e a d e p o s i t fr o m P r e c is e Tr a d e o r is t h a t m o n th s l a t e r M S N G O Y E : N o i t i s i n t h e s a m e m o n t h C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a b o u t t h e s a m e m o n t h M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h is i s a f e w d a y s la t e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h is i s 2 1 . 2 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I t h i n k w h a t h a p p e n e d is th a t y o u w e n t t o o m u c h ahead of me. M S N G O Y E : O h s o r r y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e f u l l p u r c h a s e p r i c e w a s R 1 3 . 9 m il li o n f o r t h is Page 175 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 p r o p e r ty h e y ? M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t m e j u s t h a v e a l o o k h e r e . O h t h a t is q u it e in t e r e s ti n g . Ye s 2 8 . – 2 1 . 2 8 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o Mr C o l le r w a s th e s e l l e r ? M S N G O Y E : W a s t h e s e ll e r. CHAIRPERSON: He writes to… M S N G O Y E : Mr M o n ta n a . 10 CHAIRPERSON: M r M o n t a n a in a n e m a il a s k i n g h i m t o in d ic a t e w h e t h e r h e h a d a n y in t e r e s t i n t a k in g o c c u p a t io n o f th e p r o p e r ty b e fo r e tr a n s fe r. M S N G O Y E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e is w a n ti n g t o s e e w h e t h e r – s o t h a t i f h e w a n ts t o c o m e i n b e fo r e t h e tr a n s fe r s a r e d o n e . M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y c a n t a l k a b o u t o c c u p a ti o n a l i n t e r e s t a n d s o o n . Ja. M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir ja . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e n MS NGOYE: S o M r M o n t a n a c o n ti n u e s to b e i n v o lv e d i n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o r e s p o n s e is f o u n d i n t h e e m a ils t o th is l e t t e r o r t o t h is e m a il fr o m M r M o n t a n a ? MS NGOYE: W e ll h e c o n ti n u e s t o g e t i n v o l v e d i n th e tr a n s a c t i o n s o Page 176 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h e r e w a s a n e m a i l. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S N G O Y E : F o r e x a m p l e t h e e m a il a d d r e s s Mr M o n t a n a th a t w a s u s e d w a s s ti p u l a t e d a s – a s a c o n t a c t f o r t h e tr a n s f e r e e s o t h e r e w a s c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n th e s e ll e r a n d Mr M o n t a n a . I n a d d i ti o n b e c a u s e t h e c o n v e y e r s w h o o b v io u s ly w o u ld b e a c ti n g o n b e h a lf o f t h e s e l l e r i n th is r e g a r d . when Mr Montana S o t h a t – th a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s h a p p e n in g was involved. In a d d i ti o n the conveyances a d d r e s s e d r e g u la r p r o g r e s s … 10 MS NGOYE: A n d t h e s e d o c u m e n t s a r e a ls o a v a il a b l e in t h e f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t h in k w h a t w ill b e n e c e s s a r y M r S o n i is th a t a ll t h e s e a n n e x u r e s th a t a r e n o t h e r e b u t a r e s o m e w h e r e th e y w il l n e e d t o b e m a d e a v a il a b l e a n d t h e r e n e e d s t o b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t t e l ls w h o e v e r r e a d s h e r e w h e r e t o fi n d t h e m . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I a m g o i n g to p r o p o s e s u b je c t t o y o u r a p p r o v a l i s w e h a v e a s p e c i a l s e t o f d o c u m e n t s r e l a ti n g t o a ll 20 t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s w i th a l l th e a n n e x u r e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e r e a n d j u s t a s u m m a r y o f w h a t e a c h o f t h o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s e n t a il . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t h a t is fi n e . A n d i t m a y b e – i t m a y b e t h a t s o m e w a y n e e d t o b e f o u n d to h a v e s o m e t h i n g o n e a c h p a g e w h e r e a n Page 177 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 a n n e x u r e is r e f e r r e d t o w h i c h s a y s i f y o u w a n t to s e e t h a t g o to t h a t p a g e o r t h a t b u n d le . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . T h a t w o u l d … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t it is p a g e w h a t e v e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t – b e c a u s e w h e n y o u r e a d y o u i m m e d i a t e ly w a n t to lo o k … M S N G O Y E : To th o s e a n n e x u r e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 J a y o u k n o w a n d y o u a r e d is a p p o i n t e d w h e n y o u d o n o t fi n d i t . M S N G O Y E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y a lr i g h t. I s e e h e r e it A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t i s f o u r o ’c l o c k . I w a s ju s t g o i n g t o te ll y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A f e w m i n u te s p a s t – fo u r m i n u t e s p a s t f o u r. I t h i n k w e b o t h u n d e r e s t i m a te d h o w lo n g w e w o u ld ta k e . I t h o u g h t w e w o u ld fi n i s h b e f o r e l u n c h b u t – b u t n o t i m e h a s b e e n w a s t e d . It h a s a ll b e e n v e r y i m p o r ta n t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A b s o lu t e l y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Evidence. N o w h o w f a r a r e w e fr o m fi n is h i n g w i th her? A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n c a n I ju s t s a y t h a t i t is ju s t t h e – t h e o n e m o r e t r a n s a c t io n a ft e r t h is a n d t h e n M r G a n g o ’s tr a n s a c ti o n . B u t what I… C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is s ti ll t h a t fi r s t a ff id a v it o r n o t ? Page 178 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e h a d d e c i d e d C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t w e w i ll d e a l w i t h t h a t in t h e s e c o n d p h a s e a n d t h e m a in r e a s o n i s i t is a m a t t e r i n w h ic h Ms Kweyama has a major interest. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M a y b e w e s h o u l d j u s t h a v e a l l o f th a t e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t i s a v e r y s e l f- c o n t a i n e d ( in d i s ti n c t) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d o n e w o u l d b e a b l e t o d e a l w i th i t in a b o u t t w o 10 a n d a h a l f h o u r s i n a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u k n o w r a th e r th a n d e a li n g w it h i t in s t a g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o – s o t o fi n is h h e r e y o u n e e d a b o u t h o w m u c h ti m e f o r to d a y ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : A b o u t – a b o u t t w e n ty m i n u t e s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t w e n ty m i n u t e s . N o t h a t is f i n e . Ms N g o y e y o u c a n s ti ll s t a y ? M S N G O Y E : I c a n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Yo u c a n ? O k a y a lr ig h t . I t h in k c o u n s e l f o r i s a l s o a lr i g h t . O k a y I t h in k l e t u s ta k e a s h o r t b r e a k a n d th e n w e c o m e b a c k a n d th e n w e c o n ti n u e a n d th e n w e fi n i s h . M S N G O Y E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S Page 179 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 IN Q U IRY R ESU MES CHAIRPERSON: O k a y l e t ’s p r o c e e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: [ I n a u d i b l e m ic n o t o n ] . [ I n a u d i b le ] . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: [Inaudible – mic not on]. So the signed…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u r m ic i s o ff . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M y l e a r n e d fr i e n d w is h e s t o b e e x c u s e d b e c a u s e it d o e s n ’ t i n v o lv e h is c li e n t d ir e c tl y C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: S o r r y M s N g o y e I ju s t w a n te d to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Th a t ’s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e w e r e ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e p r o p e r t y b e i n g tr a n s fe r r e d to [ in d i s ti n c t ] Tr a d e . MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w th a t h a p p e n s o n t h e 6 t h o f M a r c h , w h a t happens on the 12th of March…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y, a r e y o u d e li b e r a t e l y s k ip p i n g 2 1 . 3 0 , it s e e m s i m p o r ta n t . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : O h , a s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir p e r s o n I , in f a c t , in t e n d e d t o d o i t e a r li e r. I in t e n d e d t o d e a l w i t h i t e a r l i e r b e fo r e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W o u l d y o u p l e a s e , M s N g o y e , r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d a n e m a il th a t Mr M o n t a n a a d d r e s s e s t o t h e s e l le r o f th e p r o p e r ty o n t h e 3rd of February 2015. Page 180 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: “We T h a t’s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 3 0 . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t , i t s a y s were not aware of th e delays of the payment o f … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y, I t h i n k j u s t s t a r t fr o m t h e p a r a g r a p h i ts e l f , on 3 February 2015. MS NGOYE: O n 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 , M r M o n ta n a a d d r e s s e d a n e m a i l t o M r C o l l a [ ? ] r e g a r d i n g t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e tr a n s f e r c o s t s i n r e s p e c t o f 10 t h e p r o p e r t y, a c o p y o f t h e e m a i l i s a t ta c h e d C h a ir p e r s o n t o t h e d o c u m e n ts , b e f o r e C o u r t , i n t h e e m a i l M r M o n ta n a s a is t h a t , “ w e w e r e n o t a w a r e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A n d y o u a r e q u o ti n g n o w. T h a t ’s c o r r e c t I’ m q u o t in g s o r r y C h a ir, I ’ m q u o t in g i n in v e r t e d c o m m a s , “ W e a r e n o t a w a r e o f t h e d e l a y s i n th e p a y m e n t o f f e e s a n d the consequent breach of c o n tr a c t . I’ m aware that our a tt o r n e y s w e r e b u s y w i th t h e VAT r e g is t r a ti o n o f t h e Tr u s t , t h is m a y h a v e c o n tr i b u t e d to t h e d e l a y s . I h a v e a s k e d t h e 20 a tt o r n e y t o a b a n d o n th e VAT r e g i s t r a t io n f o r n o w a n d e n s u r e tr a n s fe r is c o n c l u d e d i m m e d ia t e l y w i t h o u t f u r th e r d e la y. I h a v e d is c u s s e d th e m a t t e r w i th o u r a t t o r n e y, Mr R ia a n v a n d e r W a lt w h o h a s s i n c e b e e n in c o n t a c t w i t h T h a l it a [ ? ]. He m a d e a n u n d e r t a k i n g t o s e t t le t h e f e e s b y t o d a y o r l a t e s t tomorrow morning”. Page 181 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o w h a t d o e s th a t in d i c a t e i n r e la t io n to Mr M o n ta n a ’s a s s o c ia t io n w i t h t h e p r o p e r t y ? MS NGOYE: W e l l e ff e c ti v e ly C h a ir, h e m u s t b e t h e p e r s o n c o n c e r n e d o b v i o u s l y i n r e la t io n t o t h is p a r ti c u l a r tr a n s a c t io n b e c a u s e h e s e e m s to b e t a k in g o v e r – h e ’s i n v o lv e d i n t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n s t h a t a r e h a p p e n in g e v e n w i t h t h e E s t a te A g e n c y b u t a l s o w h a t i s i n te r e s t in g i s , h e k e e p s r e f e r r in g t o t h e a t t o r n e y, M r v a n d e r Wa l t h a v i n g t o s e t t le t h e p a y m e n t s f o r h i s . S o t h a t ’s w h a t o n e c a n d e d u c e fr o m t h is . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 And when he refers to the attorneys in what c a p a c i ty a r e t h e a t t o r n e y s a c t in g in r e l a t i o n t o t h i s p r o p e r ty, a c c o r d in g t o M r M o n ta n a ’s e m a il ? MS NGOYE: Well they’re his attorneys. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e f e r e n c e to o u r a tt o r n e y s t h e r e , i n t h e e m a i l y o u s a y is a r e fe r e n c e to M r R i a a n v a n d e r Wa l t? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Ye s , w h o is th e s o l e D ir e c t o r o f P r e c is e Tr a d e ? P r e c i s e Tr a d e . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 But nevertheless on the 6th of March that property is t r a n s f e r r e d , t o w h o m is i t tr a n s fe r r e d ? MS NGOYE: ADV VA S I ts tr a n s fe r r e d t o P r e c is e Tr a d e C h a ir. SONI SC: Now after that t r a n s f e r, to whom is c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e la t in g t o t h e p r o p e r t y a d d r e s s e d ? MS NGOYE: I t ’s a d d r e s s e d to M r M o n t a n a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W il l y o u j u s t i n d i c a t e w h a t th e n a t u r e o f t h a t Page 182 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 c o m m u n ic a ti o n is ? MS NGOYE: P a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 3 2 C h a ir o n 3 6 6 w e t a lk a b o u t , o n th e 1 2 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 t h e s e l l e r s o f t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y a d d r e s s i n g e m a i ls t o M r M o n t a n a , th e e m a i l w a s a t ta c h e d to th e d o c u m e n t a s w e l l t h a t’s b e f o r e C o u r t C h a ir i t s a y s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o s o r r y c a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d w h o t h e e m a il is a d d r e s s e d to ? MS NGOYE: Th e e m a i l is a d d r e s s e d t o M r M o n ta n a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: R e a d [ in d i s ti n c t ] . S o r r y I’ m n o t w i th y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: N o p le a s e r e a d i t , i f y o u r e a d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . Page 367 right on the top. At the top. Ye s , I w a s g o i n g t h e r e C h a ir, i t s a y s , “Hi Lucky”. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: L u c k y is M r M o n t a n a . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 T h a t ’s h is n a m e ? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: And who, in this context, would Lucky be? A n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C o n ti n u e , r e a d . It says, “ I c a ll e d E s k o m t o d a y t o l e t t h e m k n o w w e h a v e s o l d 11 9 a n d t o t r y to tr a n s f e r th e e l e c tr ic i t y a c c o u n t o u t o f J a n e t ’s n a m e , Page 183 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 h o w e v e r, t h e p r o c e s s s e e m s t o n e e d b o t h p a r t i e s . W e n e e d t o g iv e E s k o m a m o v e - o u t in s t r u c t i o n t o t e r m i n a t e o u r a c c o u n t and t h e n e w o w n e r s n e e d to g i v e t h e m th e move-in in s t r u c t i o n s a c ti v a t e th e n e w o w n e r ’s a c c o u n t . H o w e v e r, when t h e m t h e m o v e - o u t in s t r u c t i o n t h e y w i ll c u t - o ff I o b v io u s ly the don’t we then to g iv e e l e c tr ic it y s u p p ly u n t il t h e m o v e - i n o r d e r i s g iv e n . want to le a v e y o u w i t h o u t e l e c tr ic it y, t h e p o n d a n d t h e w in e c e l l a r a r e li n k e d a n d t h e w i n e c e l la r needs power to pump out water and p r e v e n t fl o o d i n g . W o u l d y o u p l e a s e l e t m e k n o w a s s o o n a s y o u a r e 10 able to do the a c c o u n t t r a n s f e r w it h E s k o m s o t h a t w e c a n c o - o r d i n a t e th e in s t r u c t i o n t o h a p p e n o n th e s a m e d a y ” . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h i s i s a ft e r t h e p r o p e r t y h a s b e e n tr a n s fe r r e d t o P r e c is e Tr a d e . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e s e ll e r s a r e n o w t a lk i n g a b o u t lo g is tic s i n t e r m s o f m o v i n g o u t a n d m a k in g a r r a n g e m e n ts w i th E s k o m to e n s u r e t h a t th e – t h e y a r e n o t b i ll e d f o r t h e e l e c tr i c i ty w h e n t h e y n o l o n g e r liv e at the house. MS NGOYE: 20 Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e y s e n t a n e m a il t o Mr M o n ta n a a n d n o t t o P r e c is e Tr a d e . M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d n o t to M r v a n d e r Wa l t w h o is t h e s o le D i r e c t o r o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e y s p e a k t o M r M o n t a n a . Page 184 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: T h e y t a lk to M r M o n ta n a o n th e b a s i s t h a t h e – t h e y u n d e r s t a n d t h a t h e is th e p e r s o n w h o is g o in g to b e li v i n g in t h e h o u s e . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n w h a t ’s th e n e x t c o m m u n ic a t i o n M s N g o y e , th a t ’s a t 2 1 . 3 3 ? MS NGOYE: S o o n t h e 1 9 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 M r L o u is G r e e n a d d r e s s e d a n e m a il t o t h e s e l l e r o f t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y r e g a r d in g t h e r e p a i r s t o t h e g a t e m o t o r, t h e s e c u r it y c a m e r a s a n d t h e tr a n s f e r o f th e e le c tr ic i ty 10 a c c o u n t , a n d o n c e a g a in t h a t e m a il i s a t ta c h e d t o t h e C o u r t P a p e r s C h a ir, w e m a k e t h a t a v a il a b l e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: A n d Mr G r e e n is w h o ? M r G r e e n w a s th e E s ta t e A g e n t . S o h e s a y s , M r G r e e n , h e w r it e s t o J a n e t a n d I q u o t e C h a ir p e r s o n , h e s a y s , “ H i J a n e t, I c h a tt e d w i t h L u c k y, L u c k y b e in g M r M o n t a n a , r e g a r d in g th e r e p a ir o f t h e g a t e m o t o r, t h e s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s a n d t h e tr a n s f e r o f t h e e l e c tr ic i t y a c c o u n t . H e h a s c o n fir m e d t h a t th e a p p o in t m e n t a t 9 h 3 0 o n Fr i d a y t h e 2 0 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d h a s r e q u e s t e d t h e y o n l y a tt e n d t o t h e g a t e m o t o r. 20 H e w i ll , a t h is e x p e n s e r e - i n s t a te t h e s e c u r i ty v i d e o s y s t e m . H e h a s a ls o r e q u e s t e d t h a t y o u h o l d o ff a s f a r a s t h e t r a n s f e r o f t h e a c c o u n t s is c o n c e r n e d . H e is e x tr e m e l y b u s y a t t h e m o m e n t a n d u n d e r ta k e s t o p a y a l l t h a t is r e la t e d t o th e b il ls u n t il th e tr a n s f e r h a s b e e n d o n e . H e h a s in d ic a t e d t h a t, s h o u l d h e b e a b le t o a t te n d to i t w i t h i n t h e n e x t f e w w e e k s , Page 185 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h a t h e s h o u ld b e a b le t o a t te n d to i t w i t h i n t h e n e x t f e w weeks. Yo u r i n d u lg e n c e in this regard w il l be much a p p r e c ia t e d . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e a d v is e w h o th e g a r d e n i n g a n d p o o l s e r v ic e s c o m p a n i e s a r e a s h e w o u ld lik e t o c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e ir s e r v ic e ” , S o th is is w h a t – o b v i o u s l y M r G r e e n r e l a y in g th is i n fo r m a ti o n to, you know – yes. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w in th e n e x t p a r a g r a p h th e r e is a f u r t h e r r e fe r e n c e t o M r M o n ta n a ’s i n v o lv e m e n t w i t h th is p r o p e r ty, c o u l d y o u 10 b r i e fl y t e ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th a t is ? MS NGOYE: I s t h i s 2 1 .3 4 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: Ye s . S o a f u r t h e r t h r e a d o f e m a i ls C h a i r r e la t in g t o th e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r ty tr a n s a c ti o n a t t h a t ti m e is a t ta c h e d t o t h e fo u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t , i n p a r ti c u la r, I w is h t o d r a w a t te n ti o n t o t h e e m a i l a d d r e s s e d b y t h e s e ll e r, t h e p o o l s e r v i c e c o m p a n y d a t e d 3 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 5 in w h ic h it s a id , a n d I q u o te , “ H i [ in d is ti n c t ] , th is is ju s t t o c o n fir m t h a t w e h a v e n o ti f ie d t h e n e w o w n e r, L u c k y, t h a t t h e p o o l c o v e r p a r t h a s a r r iv e d 20 a n d w e a r e w a i ti n g h i s in s t r u c t i o n s t o c a r r y o u t th e r e p a ir s . W e h a v e a l s o g i v e n th e P a m G o l d in g A g e n t, L o u is G r e e n y o u r c o n ta c t d e t a i ls s o t h a t t h e y c a n g e t i n t o u c h w i th y o u d ir e c t ly, if n e c e s s a r y ” . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .3 5 y o u m a k e a n i n t e r e s ti n g observation. Page 186 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir, s o i t w i ll b e n o t e d t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t w a s s o l e D i r e c t o r a n d s h a r e h o ld e r o f Pr e c is e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t i s n o t c o p i e d o n a n y o f th e a b o v e m e n t i o n e d e m a il s , t h e e m a i ls a r e d i r e c t t o M r M o n ta n a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h e n y o u s a y t h a t , w h a t d o y o u i n te n d t o convey? MS NGOYE: W e l l e ff e c ti v e ly t h a t , y o u k n o w, M r M o n t a n a , a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y w a s t h e p e r s o n th a t th e p r o p e r t y w a s b o u g h t o n b e h a l f o f . CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o i n th is l a s t e m a i l y o u r e a d w h i c h is a t th e to p o f p a g e 3 6 9 , t h i s is a n e m a il fr o m t h e s e ll e r o f th e p r o p e r ty. MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: To th e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A d d r e s s e d to – w h o i s i t a d d r e s s e d to ? To th e p o o l s e r v i c e c o m p a n y ? Th a t ’s i t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i t’s a d d r e s s e d o n 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d h e t e l ls t h e p o o l s e r v i c e c o m p a n y t h a t t h e n e w o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e r ty is t h e p e r s o n to whom he refers as Lucky? MS NGOYE: 20 C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: A n d y o u s a y t h a t p e r s o n i s M r M o n ta n a ? L u c k y M o n t a n a , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d h e s a y s t o t h e p o o l s e r v i c e c o m p a n y h e ’s a w a it i n g M r M o n t a n a ’s i n s tr u c ti o n s a s t o t h e c a r r y in g o u t o f r e p a ir s . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. Page 187 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t h e r e a f t e r th e r e f o ll o w s a r a t h e r in f e s ti n g c o m m u n ic a ti o n , w o u l d y o u t e ll u s [i n d i s t i n c t ] w h a t t h a t is ? MS NGOYE: S o o n t h e 1 0 t h o f M a y C h a ir, 2 0 1 6 Mr G r e e n s e n t a n e m a i l to M r M o n t a n a , M r G r e e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: T h is is n o w 2 0 1 6 ? Th is i s 2 0 1 6 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t ’s a y e a r a n d 2 0 1 5 h a s p a s s e d s i n c e th e s e o th e r e m a i ls ? M S N G O Y E : Ye s C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O k a y. S o M r G r e e n a d v i s e d th a t h e s e ll e r s o f t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r ty h a d f o u n d t w o e x tr a k e y s fo r t h e e l e c tr ic p o o l c o v e r. CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y – y e s o k a y, t h e y h a d fo u n d t w o e x tr a k e y s f o r t h e e l e c tr i c p o o l c o v e r. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Mr Green. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 Mr G r e e n s e n d s i t t o M r M o n ta n a ? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Mr G r e e n s e n d s th is e m a i l t o M r M o n t a n a . Ye s . Mr v a n d e r W a lt r e s p o n d e d , a c o p y o f t h e s e e m a i ls is a ls o a tt a c h e d , h e t h e n s a y s i n a n e m a i l … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: J a p le a s e r e a d th e e m a i l. He says, “ H i p le a s e e x p l a in w h y y o u h a v e c c ’d M n r L M o n t a n a , I’ m j u s t Page 188 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 t h i n k i n g t h a t M n r i s m e n e e r, i n th is e m a il , y o u a r e w e ll a w a r e o f t h e f a c t , a n d a s a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d t o y o u l a s t y e a r b e f o r e t h e p r o p e r t y w a s e v e n b o u g h t b y m y c o m p a n y th a t M n r L M o n ta n a h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h Pr e c i s e o r t h e p r o p e r t y. Please r e fr a i n fr o m t h is a c t io n in the f u tu r e , t h is is c o n fu s i n g ” , N o i t’s n o t . CHAIRPERSON: ADV 10 VA S [ L a u g h te r ] , y e s c o n ti n u e M r S o n i. SONI SC: And I’l l tell you why i ts not c o n fu s i n g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: J a i t’s n o t c o n f u s in g a t a l l. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t y o u t h e n p u t s o m e c o n t e x t to t h a t M s N g o y e a n t h a t ’s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 3 7 . MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir, s o t h e p a p e r s in t h e p r e v i o u s a p p l ic a ti o n w e r e is s u e d o n th e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r ty t r a n s a c t io n w a s m e n ti o n e d i n t h o s e p a p e r s , th e a b o v e e m a i l w a s s e n t , o n ly a f t e r M r M o n ta n a w a s c o n fr o n te d w i t h a ll e g a t io n s c o n t a i n e d i n t h o s e p a p e r s a n d t w o d a y s b e f o r e Mr v a n d e r W a l t d e p o s e d t o t h e c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 J a i t ’s n o t c o n f u s i n g a t a l l, y e s . S o M r v a n d e r W a l t n o w s a y s to M r G r e e n t h e E s t a t e A g e n t , w h a t a r e y o u d o in g w h a t d o e s t h is p r o p e r ty h a v e t o d o w i t h Mr M o n t a n a . MS NGOYE: M r M o n ta n a , j a . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d o b v i o u s ly w h a t y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 3 7 a p p e a r s to h a v e p r o m p t e d t h a t e m a il . Page 189 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: I m e a n t h a t c o m m u n i c a ti o n . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t, s o w h e n t h e a p p lic a ti o n w a s m a d e h e h a d to cover up there. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e r e a f t e r w e d e a l , a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 3 8 , w i t h th e f o u r t h tr a n s a c t i o n . MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 MS NGOYE: A n d t h is i n v o l v e d a p r o p e r t y i n w h i c h s u b u r b ? I t ’s in H u r l in g h a m C h a i r p e r s o n , it ’s s i t u a t e d a t 1 2 M o n tr o s e R o a d in H u r l in g h a m . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d Mr G r e e n a p p e a r s to b e t h e E s t a te A g e n t a g a in . MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: 20 Oh. In 21.40. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Mr G r e e n is th e E s ta t e A g e n t h e r e a s w e l l? Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: N o w v e r y b r i e f ly … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . T h a t i s w i th r e g a r d t o t h e f o u r t h tr a n s a c ti o n ? Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: H o w f a r a p a r t w e r e t h e s e p r o p e r ti e s , u s u a l ly Es t a te A g e n t s a r e r e s tr i c t e d to a n a r e a is n ’ t i t o r c e r t a in a r e a s [i n d i s t i n c t ] to o n e a n o t h e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th e y ’r e n o t t o o f a r a w a y, I k n o w b e c a u s e I s ta y Page 190 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 n e a r … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h e y ’r e n o t to o f a r a p a r t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e y o r d in a r il y w o u l d h a v e b e e n e n t a i le d t w o s e p a r a t e E s ta t e A g e n ts b e l o n g in g t o t h e s a m e c o m p a n y, t h e y ’ r e n o t t o o far apart. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, c o n t i n u e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: M u s t I c o n ti n u e t o 2 1 . 4 0 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 MS NGOYE: Ye s M s N g o y e . Ye s . S o Mr G r e e n w a s m a n d a t e d b y M r s G a v i s e r [? ] to m a r k e t a n d s e ll t h e H u r li n g h a m p r o p e r ty. S o t h e p r o p e r ty w a s p la c e d o n s h o w w h ic h M r M o n t a n a a t te n d e d o n a b o u t O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 . Mr Montana, h a v i n g v i e w e d t h e p r o p e r t y, i m m e d i a t e l y e x p r e s s e d a n in t e r e s t i n p u r c h a s i n g t h e p r o p e r ty. O n a b o u t 1 5 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 Mr M o n ta n a r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e o ff e r to p u r c h a s e b e f o r w a r d e d t o M r S m i t h . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: Th e Tr u s te e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: 20 N o w t h i s is M r S m i t h … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . T h e Tr u s te e . T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir o f t h e m i n o r p r o p e r ty Tr u s t , h i s c h i l d r e n ’s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s t h e p u r c h a s e p r i c e o f t h is p r o p e r ty, I’ m tr y i n g t o l o o k f o r i t . MS NGOYE: P u r c h a s e p r ic e is R 1 2 m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Hm? R 1 2 m ill i o n . Page 191 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: O h o k a y t h a t ’s in 2 1 . 4 1 ? O k a y. S o t h e m i n o r p r o p e r ty Tr u s t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s o r r y, t h e f ir s t – t h e s e c o n d p r o p e r ty w a s p a i d f o r t h r o u g h – b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t, i s t h a t r i g h t ? MS NGOYE: P r e c i s e Tr a d i n g , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t p r o p e r t y w a s a ls o p a i d fo r – w e l l t h e d e p o s i t o f R 5 m i ll i o n w a s s a id t o h a v e b e e n p a i d b y o r o n b e h a l f o f M r M o n ta n a 10 t h r o u g h M r v a n d e r Wa l t? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d l a t e r o n w h e n i t w a s – t h e p la n s c h a n g e d P r e c is e Tr a d e m u s t b e th e p u r c h a s e r, M r v a n d e r W a l t s a i d th a t a m o u n t m u s t b e t a k e n a s P r e c i s e Tr a d e ’s d e p o s i t . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W h ic h m e a n s i f t h e R 5 m i ll i o n h a d c o m e fr o m M r M o n ta n a h e w o u ld n o w b e o w e d m o n e y b y P r e c is e Tr a d e . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , a n d th e n o f c o u r s e , w e s e e M r M o n t a n a b e i n g in v o lv e d q u i t e t h r o u g h o u t a n d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e i n g a d d r e s s e d t o h i m . MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s the th ir d tr a n s a c ti o n and R 1 3 . 5 m il li o n . M S N G O Y E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a a n d t h e o n e b e fo r e w a s R 11 m il li o n . Page 192 of 211 th a t was 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: I t w a s R 1 0 .5 m i ll io n a n d th e n i t w e n t to R 11 m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s it w e n t t o R 11 mi ll i o n , s o t h is o n e w e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h h e r e n o w i s R 1 2 m i ll i o n . MS NGOYE: R 1 2 m ill i o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A ll th e s e p u r c h a s e s a r e h a p p e n i n g in 2 0 1 4 , is th a t r ig h t ? MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 T h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 4 2 t h e d e ta il s o f w h o s ig n e d th e o ff e r a n d s o o n a r e s e t o u t , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e s u m m a r is e t h e p o s i ti o n fo r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ? MS NGOYE: S o t h e o ff e r w a s s i g n e d b y M r S m i t h , t h e Tr u s te e C h a ir, in h i s c a p a c i ty a s t h e Tr u s t e e o f t h e m i n o r p r o p e r ty Tr u s t , h o w e v e r, b o t h M r S m i th a n d Mr M o n t a n a r e p r e s e n t e d t o M r G r e e n t h a t th e p r o p e r ty w a s b e in g p u r c h a s e d b y M r M o n t a n a a n d th e r e ’s r e f e r e n c e t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o th a t e ff e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: A n d th e o ffe r w a s r e j e c t e d b y t h e s e ll e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 MS NGOYE: A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n s th e r e a ft e r ? A n d a f t e r i t w a s r e je c t e d ? S o o n t h e 2 3 r d o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 th e m i n o r p r o p e r t y Tr u s t , t h r o u g h a n e m a il fr o m S e r e s a D a v i d , M s D a v i d , m a d e a n o th e r o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e t h e H u r l in g h a m p r o p e r ty f o r a n a m o u n t o f R 1 3 . 5 m il li o n a n d i t w a s a g a in – p r o o f o f t h a t e m a il c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is a t t a c h e d t o t h e papers before Court. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i n t h e o ffe r t o t h e – b y t h e m i n o r p r o p e r ty Page 193 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 Tr u s t i t w a s s u b je c t t o p a y m e n t o f th e d e p o s i t o f R 2 . 4 m i ll io n a n d th e p u r c h a s e r o b ta i n i n g a b o n d o f R 9 .6 m i ll io n , i s th a t c o r r e c t , th a t a p p e a r s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 .4 1 ? MS NGOYE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir – th a t i s c o r r e c t i n 2 1 . 4 1 it s a y s s o , t h e o ffe r w a s s u b je c te d to p a y m e n t o f a d e p o s i t i n t h e a m o u n t o f R 2 . 4 m il li o n a n d t h e p u r c h a s e r o b t a i n in g a b o n d o f R 9 . 6 m il li o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h e n t h e o ff e r w a s m a d e f o r R 1 3 .5 m i ll io n w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e b o n d f in a n c e c l a u s e ? MS NGOYE: 10 S o t h a t c la u s e w a s d e l e t e d C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h i s i s r e fe r e n c e d in 2 1 . 4 4 w h ic h i n d ic a t e d th a t t h e o ff e r w a s a c a s h p u r c h a s e , f u r th e r m o r e t h e s a l e w a s s u b je c t to p a y m e n t o f a d e p o s i t in t h e a m o u n t o f R 2 m i ll io n , s o t h e b o n d w a s n o l o n g e r a n is s u e h e r e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s c a s h a v a il a b l e t o p u r c h a s e t h e p r o p e r t y. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 4 1 y o u s a y a n o ff e r o f R 1 2 m i ll io n w a s m a d e to th e s e ll e r b y m i n o r p r o p e r t y Tr u s t r e p r e s e n te d b y M r S m i t h , w a s s u b j e c t t o a p a y m e n t o f a d e p o s i t in t h e a m o u n t o f R 2 . 4 m il li o n a n d t h e p u r c h a s e r o b t a in in g a b o n d f o r R 9 .6 m i ll io n , o k a y t h a t o ff e r w a s r e j e c t e d a n d th e n t h r e e d a y s la t e r m in o r p r o p e r ty Tr u s t m a d e a n o ffe r fo r R 1 3 . 5 m il li o n a n d t h a t w a s a c a s h – t h a t w a s to b e a 20 cash purchase. MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d a n i m p o r ta n t p o i n t is , i t ’s n o l o n g e r s u b j e c t t o a bond being approved. MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . Page 194 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n t h e r e is a d e v e l o p m e n t o n t h e 3 r d o f M a r c h M r N g o y e , w h a t w a s th a t ? MS NGOYE: A n e w o ff e r to p u r c h a s e w a s s u b m i tt e d w h e r e M r M o n t a n a w a s s u b s t i tu t e d f o r t h e m i n o r p r o p e r ty Tr u s t a s t h e p u r c h a s e r. CHAIRPERSON: D o e s t h i s m e a n t h i s o ffe r o f R 1 3 . 5 m il li o n w a s rejected? MS NGOYE: N o C h a ir, s o t h e y m a k e t h e o ff e r o f R 1 3 .5 m i ll i o n b u t b e c a u s e i t ’s a c a s h s a l e y o u k n o w a n d t h e b o n d r e q u ir e m e n t is n o t a n is s u e 10 anymore and one w o u l d s u r m is e t h a t i n r e l a ti o n to th a t tr a n s a c ti o n th e p u r c h a s e r w o u l d h a v e b e e n M r M o n t a n a a n d th a t ’s w h y o n t h e 3 r d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 th e y s i g n e d a n e w o ff e r, I s u p p o s e i t ’s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s a m e p r o p e r t y C h a ir p e r s o n b u t t h e y c h a n g e d th e n a m e o f t h e p u r c h a s e r h e r e to b e i n g t h e Tr u s t a n d n o t Mr M o n t a n a . CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: I t ’s t h e R 1 3 . 5 m il li o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MS NGOYE: N o w t h e n e w o ff e r i s f o r h o w m u c h ? I t ’s R 1 3 . 5 m il li o n s til l th a t o n e . Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, i t ’s t h e s a m e a m o u n t a s w h a t w a s o ffe r e d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: T h e p r e v i o u s o ff e r w a s fr o m th e Tr u s t . W h o is t h i s n e w o ff e r fr o m ? Th e n e w o ffe r t o p u r c h a s e w a s s u b m it t e d b y M r M o n ta n a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o M r M o n t a n a is n o w s u b s ti t u te d f o r t h e Tr u s t a s t h e o ffe r e e ? Page 195 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS NGOYE: Ye s , w h a t 2 1 . 4 5 s a y s C h a ir is th a t th e n e w o ffe r t o p u r c h a s e w a s s u b mi t t e d i n w h i c h Mr M o n t a n a w a s s u b s t i tu t e d fo r t h e m i n o r Tr u s t p r o p e r ty a s t h e p u r c h a s e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n – n o w i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is – to th a t o ff e r c e r t a i n p a y m e n ts w e r e m a d e a n d t h e s e a r e r e fl e c t e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 4 6 , w h a t w e r e t h o s e p a y m e n ts ? MS NGOYE: S o o n t h e 2 4 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 P r e c i s e Tr a d e C h a ir, p a i d t h e d e p o s i t o f R 2 m i ll io n i n t o t h e Tr u s t a c c o u n t o f J a n i n e Br e d e k a m p , a c o n v e y a n c e r a t t e n d in g t o th e tr a n s fe r o f t h e H u r l i n g h a m p r o p e r t y a n d 10 t h e r e ’s p r o o f o f t h a t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr i g h t a n d th e n 2 1 . 4 7 th e r e is s ti ll o b v i o u s l y a n a m o u n t o f R 11 . 5 m il li o n . MS NGOYE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MS NGOYE: W h e n is th a t p a id ? S o t h e r e w e r e v a r i o u s d e l a y s C h a ir, a s r e f l e c te d in 2 1 .4 7 r e l a ti n g to t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e b a la n c e o f t h e p u r c h a s e p r i c e i n t h e a m o u n t o f t h e R 11 .5 m i ll io n a n d a c o p y o f a l e t t e r b e t w e e n M r v a n d e r M e r w e , Mr v a n d e r M e r w e is t h e a t to r n e y f o r S iy a n g e n a … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Va n d e r W a l t . MS Sorry NGOYE: Mr van der Walt sorry and Ms Bredekamp…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe van der Merwe as well but the one who deals w i t h Si y a n g e n a th e m o s t is Va n d e r Wa l t. MS NGOYE: C o r r e c t C h a ir s o Mr v a n d e r Wa lt w r o te in q u o te s h e s ay s : Page 196 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 “We h e r e w ith c o n fir m th a t w e h o ld in s tr u c tio n s fr o m o u r c lie n t to co n fir m in w r itin g th a t h is d e la y in r e n d er in g a g ua r a n te e is n o t d u e to h is ma la fid e s , b u t d u e to u n fo r es e en c irc u ms ta nc es p e r ta in in g to th e s a le o f o n e o f h is p r o p e r tie s o f w h ic h th e p r o fits o u t o f th e s a le is e a r mar k e d to b e u tilis e d fo r p a y me n t o f th is p r o p e r ty.” Th a t is th e r e n d e r in g o f th e g u a r a n te e a n d he fu r th e r o n s a ys : “It w a s c o n v ey e d to o u r o ffic e r s th a t s u c h fu n d s w ill 10 o n ly b e av a ila b le du r in g th e las t w e ek o f May 2 0 1 5 to b e tr a n s fe rr e d to o u r o ffic e s w h er e a fte r ou r o ffic e s w ill in v e s t th e fu n d s in a n in te r es t b e a r ing a c c ou n t w ith In v e s te c to e n ab le o u r o ffic e s to r e n d er a g u a r a n te e as s tip u la te d in yo u r le tte r o f 3 0 Ma r c h 2 0 1 5 th r o u g h In v es te c .” A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: An d w a s th a t a mo u n t th e n p a id ? Ye s , th e y o u ts ta n d in g p u rc h as e p r ic e w as e ve n tu a lly p a id , C h a ir p er so n o n th e 1 5 th o f Ma y 2 0 1 5 . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : 20 N o w, in y o u r a ffid a v it, in y o u r fo u n d in g a ffid a v it in th e r e v iew p a pe r s y o u d o n o t in d ic a te th a t th a t p u r c h as e by Mr Mo n ta na h a d h a d a c tu a lly b e e n fin a liz e d b e c au s e re me mb e r Mr Mo n ta n a is n o w s u b s titu te d a s th e o ffe r r e a d s in p la c e o f th e tr u s t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. Th a t w a s h is q u es t. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Bu t o n th e in fo r ma ti o n a t y o u r d is p os a l th a t s a le d id ta k e p la c e ? Page 197 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d C h a ir p e r s o n w e w ill o b v io u s ly ma k e th e n e c es s ar y e n q u ir ies fr o m o u r s id e , s e e w h o th e o w n e r o f th e p r o p e r ty is o n th e o ffic ia l r e c o r d . So th o s e a r e th e fo u r tr a n s a c tio ns r e la tin g to Mr Mo n ta n a ? MS N G O YE: ADV VA S Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. SO N I( SC ) : N o w, th e r e is one tr a n sa c tio n r e la tin g to Mr G a n s h o ? MS N G O YE: 10 Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : N o w, c o u ld y o u e x p la in to th e C h a ir p e r s o n in s u mma r y fo r m h o w th is to o k p lac e ? MS N G O YE: We ll , Mr – in 2 0 11 C h a ir p e rs o n Mr G a ns h o a p pr o ac h e d a c e r ta in Mr Mu r p h y re g a r d in g a p r o p er ty wh ic h w a s s itu a te d in D u rb a n . Th e p u r c h as e o f th a t p r o p e r ty in th e P o in t Pr e c in c t in D u r b a n a n d Mr Mu r p h y h a d to d e p o s e to a n a ffid a v it s e a r c h in g o u t th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts th a t le d to th e s a le o f th a t u n it a n d a c o p y Mr Mu r p h y ’s a ffid a v it w a s a lso a tta c h e d to th e p a p e r s , C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : N o w, Mr Mu r p h y h ad n o th in g to d o – wa s h e th e o w n e r o f th a t p r o p e r ty ? 20 MS N G O YE : We ll, Mr Mu r p h y h a d p la c e d a u n it in c lu d in g th e fu r n itu r e a n d fittin g s , I th in k h e w as th e ow n er, C h a ir. Ap p r o a c h ed Mr Mu rp h y, if I r e c a ll C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : O h , s o r r y. It w a s o w n e d b y th e s c a tte r e d Mu r ph y Fa mily R r u s t. MS N G O YE: Th a t is r ig h t, s ir h e w a s ...[in t e r v e ne s ]. Page 198 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: W h a t w a s Mr Mu r p h y ’s r o le in th a t? L e t me ju s t fin d it h e r e , C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : I s u p p o s e g iv en th e n a me s h e w o u ld ha v e b ee n a s s oc ia te d w ith h is tr u s ts . MS N G O YE: We ll, y e s . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: It w a s th r e e millio n a n d fif ty t h o u s an d . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: 10 Ye s . W h a t w a s th e s e llin g p r ic e o f th is p r o p e r ty? N o w, th a t w a s p la c e d o n s a le ? Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d w h a t d id Mr G a n s h o d o in r e la tio n to th a t p r o p er ty ? MS N G O YE: Mr G a n s h o a p p ro a ch e d Mr Mur p h y an d in d ic a te d a n in ter e s t in p u r ch a s ing th e p r op e r ty, Ch a ir. As w e ll as th e fu r n itu r e , so me fu r n itu r e th a t w a s in th e p r o p e r ty. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: An d d id h e v is it th e p r o p e r ty, Mr G a n sh o ? Ye s , h e v is ite d th e u n it o n s e v e r a l o c ca s io ns C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d e v e n tu a lly th e n e g o tia tio n s w er e co n c lud e d , w h a t d id Mr G a n s h o d o a t th e c o n c lus io n o f th o s e n e g o tia tio n s ? MS N G O YE: 20 So , Mr G a n s h o fo r th e fir s t- time in fo r me d Mr Mu r p h y th a t h e w as n o t in fa c t th e p u rc h as e r o f th e p r op e r ty. Mr G a ns h o ad v ise d Mr Mu r p h y th a t Mr v a n d e r Wa lt w o u ld c o n ta c t Mr Mu r p h y a n d p ro v id e fu r th er d e ta ils . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: Th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t? So , Mr Mu r p h y w a s th e c o n ta c te d b y Mr v a n d er Wa lt w h o a d v is ed th a t th e p u r c h a s er w a s to b e a n e ntity c a lle d G r a n d To w e r Tr a d e Page 199 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 a n d in v e s t a ll fo u r ( Pty ) L td . Mr v a n d e r Wa lt is th e s o le D ir e c to r a n d s h a r eh o ld er o f G r a n d To w er a n d c o n fir ma tio n to th a t h e h a s a tta c he d to th e p a p e r s , C h a ir, o f d ir e c to r s h ip fr o m th e au d ito r s o f G r a n d To w e r. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : A lr ig h t. If th e s a le w a s n e go tia te d b e tw e e n Mr G a n s h o a n d Mr Mu r ph y, a m I r ig h t? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t. Th a t is c o r r ec t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d in r e g a r d to t h e p a y me n ts w h o ma d e th e p a y me n ts ? MS N G O YE: 10 Th e c h a n c e r e la tin g to th e p a y me n ts o f th e p u r c h as e p r ic e w h e n h e n e g o tia te s a nd a g r e ed w ith Mr v a n d e r Wa lt, C h a ir, a s a r e p r es e n ta tiv e o f G r a n d To w er. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d w a s th e r e th e n a n a g r e e me n t th a t w a s c o n c lud e d ? MS N G O YE : Th a t is c o r r ec t, C h a ir. So , M r Mu r p h y a n d th e G r a n d To w e r c o n c lud e d th e ir a g r e e me n t fo r th e s a le a n d p u r c h as e o f th a t u n it a n d fu r n itu r e a n d fittin g s a n d th e a gr e e me n ts ar e a ls o pr ov id e d , C h a ir. H o w c a n th e y n o t p r o v id e it? A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : In r e g a r d to , s o w e k n o w n o w th e p r o p e r ty w a s n o t in Mr G a n s h o ’s n a me b u t in th e n a me o f G r a n d To w e r s . 20 MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : W h a t is th e lin k th o u g h th a t th e in v e s tig a tio n s w e r e s till a b le to e s ta b lis h b e twe e n Mr G a nsh o a n d th a t p r o pe r ty o n th e Wa te r fr on t? MS N G O YE: Bu t, Mr v a n d e r Wa lt h a s b e en th e lin k , C h a ir. Page 200 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : N o w, in r e la tio n to M r G a n s h o a n d th e p r o p e r ty, if y o u lo o k a t p a r a gr a p h 2 1 .5 6 a nd p r o p er ty. MS N G O YE : Ye s . Th e r e w a s a n e - m a il th a t w a s a d d r e ss e d b y Mr G a n s h o to th e R e v e re n d Ma r o mo a nd in t h a t e - ma il Mr G a n s h o w r o te , “Vis it th e fo llo w in g lin k fo r in fo r ma tio n o n y o u r a c c o mmod a tio n my a p ar tme n t is C 7 to 10 . En jo y e v e ry mo me n t if a n y q u e s tio n s o r n e e d a nyth in g ju s t c a ll me .” A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : 10 MS N G O YE: W h a t w o u ld th a t a p p e a r to in d ic a te ? Th a t e - ma il? We ll , th a t e ffe c tiv e ly Mr G a ns h o y ou k n ow w a s th e ow n e r b e c a us e y o u d o n o t le a s e s o me b o d y e ls e ’s p r o p er ty C h a ir o r in v ite p e o p le to o c c u p y s o me b o dy ’s p r o p er ty if y o u a r e n o t n e c e ss a r ily th e o w n e r th e r e o f. ADV VA S SO N I( SC ) : N o w, a fte r th e in v e s tig a tio n s ta r te d , w as Mr G a n s h o in te rv ie w e d by PR ASA o r th e in v e s tig a to r s ? MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: An d w h a t d id h e s a y d u r in g th a t in te r v ie w ? Mr G a n s h o in fa c t o n th e 1 2 t h o f Au g u s t 2 0 1 6 h e s ay s w h e n I fir s t s a w th e a p a r tme n t [in te r v e n es ]. 20 A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : O h , s o r r y. Be fo r e I g o in to th a t. Wa s th e in te r v iew w ith Mr G a n s h o r ec o r de d ? MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. Th e in v es tiga to r s a nd th is is y o u k n ow o b v io us ly d u r in g th e fo r e n s ic inv e s tig a tio n th a t w a s d o n e b y W ils o ns . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d n o w w h a t y o u a re n o w r e a d in g is wh a t? Page 201 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: A tr a n s c r ip t o f th e in te r v iew with Mr G a n s h o w h ic h w as h e ld o n th e 1 2 t h o f Au g u s t 2 0 1 6 . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: W h a t d o e s h e s a y th en ? R e a d in to th e r e c o r d . “Yo u s e e , w h e n I f ir s t s a w th e a p a r tme n t, w e w e r e b u s y w ith o u r 2 0 1 0 p ro je c ts a t th e time s o a t s o me p o in t [in te r v e n e s ].” A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: 10 So r r y, th e 2 0 1 0 p r o jec ts b e in g w h a t? Wo u ld b e th o s e p r o jec ts , th e d e v e lo p me n t o f th e s ta tio n s , C h a ir, in r e la tio n to p h as e on e o f th e p ro je c t a n d th e ex te n s ion o f th e p ilo t p h a s e . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE : mis s in g . Ye s . So , h e s a y s – h e s a y s a t s o me p o in t w e w o u ld b e ma d e So r r y, a t s o me p o in t w e w o u ld b e ma d e mis s in g o u r flig h ts c o min g b ac k be c au s e o f th e d ur a tio n s o f th e me e tin g s a n d a ll th a t. O n e o f th e c o lle a g u es in D u rb a n s a id a t th e w a te r fr o n t w h er e p e o p le c a n s ta y w e u se d to s lee p in d iffe r e n t a p ar tme n ts th e r e . So w e s le p t th e r e an d a t o n e time I w e n t th e r e w ith th e fa mily a n d th e n h e lo o k e d a t th e p la c e th e I g o t c u r io us , I a s k e d w h ic h on e o f th e s e a p a r tme n ts a r e s e llin g . 20 Mr Mu r p h y sa id h e is s e llin g in th a t I th in k it i s C 1 0 . We w e n t in th e r e , w e lo o k e d a t it, if w e c a me th e r e o n a Th u r s d ay o r a Fr id a y w e s le e p o v er o n Sa tu r d a y th e n w e w ill in v ite so me o f th e g u y s wh o w e we r e w ith a t th e me e tin g s . O n e o f th e g u ys wh o w as – w h o w a n ts we n t th e r e wh o s e Mr it d o e s n o t s h ow. It d o e s n o t r e fle c t it is n o t a u d ib le I d o n o t k n o w h is n a me is h e is Alv in . H e is fro m Siy a g e na . In o n e in s ta nc e I th in k it is Page 202 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 Mr Me lle r k a mp , s o y o u r e a lly g o t in te r e s t in th is p a r tic u lar a p ar tme n t a n d th e n I a p p r o a c h ed Mr Mu r p h y to s ay I w o u ld lik e to b u y th is th e n th is Alv in g u y s a id h e is a ls o in te r e s te d , th e ir c o mp a n y is a ls o in te r e s te d a n d h e s a id y o u lo o k v er y mu c h in te r e s te d in th is a n d I s a id y e s I a m b u t I th in k it is to o s te e p fo r me to b e a c q u ir in g it . H e s a id o k a y, b u t d o y o u lik e th is fla t? An d I s a id y e s I d o , th e n h e s a id o k a y th a t is fin e a n d th e n I a p p r o a c h e d th is g u y Mu r p h y. I s a id C r a ig I a m r e a lly in te r e s te d in th is a p a r tme n t. So w e w e n t in to th e w h o le n itty - g r itty ’s o f it. Th e n e x t th in g I h e a r Alv in s a y ing y o u c a n ge t th a t fla t. 10 T h e n w h en y o u ar e r ea d y s a id o k a y y o u c a n b uy th e fla t a n d th e n w e g e t it to b e a c q u ir e d b y th e c o mp a ny h e sa id , it w ill n o t b e a p r o b le m fo r u s as th e c o mpa n y ac q u ir e th e fla t a n d th e n ma y b e a t s o me po in t w h en y o u ar e re a dy fo r it w e c a n ta lk . I s a id o k a y th a t is fin e . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : So , p u ttin g th e w h o le w h a te v er h e s a id in th a t in te r v ie w in c o n tex t w h a t s e e ms to h a v e h app e n e d ? MS N G O YE: Mr, w h a t s e e ms to h a v e h a ppe n e d a ls o h er e C ha ir p er s o n is th a t Mr G a n s h o w a s th e a ss is ta n t in p u r c h as in g th a t p r o p e r ty as w e ll. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Bu t th e Pr o p e r ty w a s p u rc h as e d in th e n a me o f G r a n d C a ny o n? 20 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r re c t, C h a ir. H e sh o w e d in ter e s t in th e pr o p er ty and yes. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: It d o e s s a y. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: An d w h o w a s th e o w n er o f th is G r a n d To w e r ? D o w e k n o w? I do not. Page 203 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Mr v a n d e r Wa lt, Mr C h a ir p er so n y o u w ill s e e th a t a t 2 1 .5 5 . C H A IR PER SO N : Fiv e - fiv e ? A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: 2 1 .5 5 , y e s , C h a ir p e rso n G r a n d To w e r, y e s . C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y. G r a n d To w e r. Mr v a n d e r Wa lt w a s th e r e p r es e n ta tiv e o f G r a n d To w er. MS N G O YE: Wa s th e r e p r es e n ta tiv e o f - Ch a ir, y e s . C H A IR PER SO N : 10 Bu t, is th e r e s o me th in g t h a t te lls u s w h e th e r h e w a s a d ir e c to r o r jus t a c tin g fo r th e m? D o y o u k n ow ? MS N G O YE: We c a n c h e ck th a t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : v a n d e r Wa lt w a s a d ire c to r o f G r a n d To w e r o r w h e th e r h e w a s ju s t a c tin g a s a n a tto r n ey fo r th e m? MS N G O YE: We w ill c h e c k th a t, C h a ir. I c a n n o t s e e m to r e me mb e r. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y. Bu t th e tr a n s ac tio n r e la tin g to Mr G a ns h o u n le ss its - it c o n n ec ts w ith PR ASA o r so me b o dy a t PR ASA , w h y w o u ld it b e r e le v an t? O r d o e s it – d o e s it c o n n e c t? L e t me a s k th e w itn e s s . MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. W h a t w e d ed u ce d fr o m th is tr a n sa c tio n yo u k n o w th e in v o lv e me n t o f Mr v a n d e r Wa lt in a s s is tin g Mr G a n s h o in 20 o b ta in in g th is p r o p e r ty a n d a ls o th e fa c t t h a t th is w a s d u r in g th a t time w h e r e Siy a ge n a w as r e a lly in v o lve d in th e t r a n s ac tio n s in PR ASA a n d y o u w ill r e c a ll Ch a ir pe r so n a s p a r t o f th e e v id en c e th a t w e g av e th a t Mr v an d e r Wa lt I me a n Mr G a n s ho w as th e o n e th a t w a s r e a lly p u sh in g th e tr a n s ac tio n s wa s fo r Siy ag e n a to b e co n c lu d ed w ith PR ASA. So c o n n ec tio n w a s th e n ma d e y o u k n o w in r e la tio n to h is p a r tic ip a tio n in th e Page 204 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 Siy a g e n a tr an s ac tio n a n d in th e in vo lv e men t o f Mr v a n de r Wa lt in th is r e s p ec t. C H A IR PER SO N : H o w mu c h w a s th is la s t p r o p er ty a g a in ? W ith r e s p e c t to th e p r ic e ? A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : MS N G O YE: Th r e e millio n C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ab o u t? A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N : 10 Ab o u t th r e e millio n . Th r e e millio n . Th r e e millio n . Ye s , b u t I a m n o t s u r e th a t I u n d e r s ta n d w h y it is r e le v a n t. MS N G O YE: We ll [in te r v e n es ]. C H A IR PER SO N : If it d o e s n o t c o n n e c t a n y b o dy fr o m PR ASA to it o r PR ASA. MS N G O YE: It c o n n e c ts to Siy a g e n a to a p e r s o n th r o ug h Mr v a n d e r Wa lt. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . So th a t is h o w y o u k n o w th e w a y w e in te r pr e te d th is p a r tic u la r tr an s ac tio n th a t w a s a fo r m o f g r a tu ity th a t Mr – Mr – Mr ... [in te r v e n e s ]. 20 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE : Gansho. Mr G a n s h o w a s r e c e iv in g in r e la tio n to h is r e la tio n s h ip to Siy a g e n a . So , th e y a s s is te d h im. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Wa s it n o t p a r t o f, I th o u g h t h e w a s p a r t Siy a g e n a ? N o , Mr G a n s h o is a n e mp lo y ee a t PR AS A, C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N : Oh. Page 205 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N : Th e n le t me , th e n I mu s t h a v e mis se d th a t p a r t c le a r ly. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N : Yo u d id , C h a ir. O h , o k a y, o k a y, o k a y, b e ca u s e h e w a s th e o n e w h o w a s a s k in g Mr Mo n ta n a fo r a p p r o v a ls o f c e r ta in , o k a y n o I th in k I g o t mix e d u p a t s o me s ta g e . MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y. No, no. So , th e th e o r y is h e is g e ttin g h is s h a r e? 10 MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d y o u w ill s ee Ch a ir p e rs o n a t p a g e 3 76 th a t w h e r e p ar t o f th e tr a n s c r ip t is h e ta lk s a b ou t a p e r s o n c a lle d Alv in fr o m Siy a g e n a . C H A IR PER SO N : I a m s o r r y. I a m a t 3 7 6 . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , a b o u t s ix lin e s fr o m th e to p Mr C h a ir. Ye s . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : I d o n o t k n o w h is s ur n a me h e is Alv in , h e is fr o m Siy a g e n a , a n d th e n a b o u t 4 lin es la te r h e sa y s th a t th is Alv in g u y s a id h e is a ls o in te r e s te d in th e c o mp an y a n d h e sa id if y o u a r e in te r e s te d th e n 20 w e c a n g e t th e p r o p e r ty. C H A IR PER SO N : O h , y e s . Ye s . O k a y. Alr ig h t. Th a n k y o u . We ll, I s e e , - I s e e th a t Mr G a n s h o w a s s us p e n de d in Ap r il 2 0 1 4 . MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Wa s th a t a fte r th e s e tr a n sa c tio n s ? Ye s , it w a s a fte r th e tr a n s a c tio n s , C h a ir. Page 206 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: O k a y. An d u ltima te ly w h a t h a p p e n e d to h im? We ll, h e w a s d is mis s e d , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Bu t th e y w e r e d isc o ve r e d . H e w a s fo u n d g u ilty fo r wh a t? Ye s , h e w a s fo u n d g u ilty o f in h is c o n d u c t a n d in r e la tio n to [in d is tin c t] C H AIR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: 10 in r e la tio n to h is p o w e r s in h is tr a n s ac tio n s Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , a n d w a s h is d isc ip lin a r y h ea r in g c h ec k e d b y a n o u ts id e r ? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: A la w y e r ? An d w e c a n g e t th e – s e e An d w e c a n g e t th e tr a n s c r ip ts . Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y, s h a ll w e ju s t g e t th a t? A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N : 20 Ye s . O k a y, a lr ig h t. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Mr C h a ir p e rs o n ma y I th e n c o n c lu d e th is w ith a n d I k n o w I h a v e ov e rs ta y e d my w e lc o me h e re b u t C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : I – I a s y o u p o in te d o u t Mr C h a ir p e r s on th e s e a r e th e s ma ll th in g s th a t p a in t a r a th e r c le a r p ic tu r e o f w h a t p r o ba b ly h a p p e n ed a t PR ASA . G o in g a b it b a c k to y o u r s u p p le men ta r y a ffid a v it. Page 207 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : I s e e Mr So n i , I a m n o t th e o n ly o n e w h o is p o o r in e s tima tin g time . I s e e w e a r e a t fiv e n o w. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N : An d tw e n ty min u te s h a s b e c o me fo r ty min u te s . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N: I k n o w. Th is w ill Bu t le t u s r o u n d o ff th a t is fin e . L e t u s ro u n d o ff p r o p er ly. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Th a t is fin e . So , y o u th e n ma k e th e p o in t w h ic h w e ma d e e a r lie r in p a r a g r a p h 4 8 r e la tin g to t h e lin k b e tw e e n th e Siy a g e n a 10 a n d Mr Mo o d ley th a t Siy a g e n a p a id fiv e h un d r e d a nd fifty millio n r a n d to R a ilw ay Tr a d ing w h ic h s ha r es is th e s a me a d d r es s as R oy a l Se c ur ity w h e n it w a s d ir ec te d to Mr Mo o d le y. MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Tw o o th e r p o in ts th a t I w a n t to ma k e a t th is s ta g e is [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: N o , I – I d o n o t h a v e th e d a te , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: 20 W h e n w a s th a t p a y me n t ma d e ? D o y o u k n ow ? D o y o u h a v e th e y ea r ? N o , I c a n n o t r e me mb e r th e y ea r, C h a ir p er so n . C H A IR PER SO N : It is imp o r ta n t b e c a u s e yo u k n o w w h en y o u p la c e so me o f th e s e tr a n s a c tio ns ma y b e imp o r ta n t. MS N G O YE: I w ill fin d o u t , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : O k a y. Page 208 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : N o w, y o u mak e th e po in t th a t th e a ll th e s e ma tte r s in c lu d in g th e s e p r o pe r tie s tr a n sa c tio ns w e re r e p o r te d to th e p o lic e , w o u ld I b e c o r r e c t? MS N G O YE: Th a t is c o r r e c t, C h a ir. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : An d a s fa r a s y o u k n o w n o a r r es ts h a v e b ee n ma d e a n d n o p r o se c u tio ns h a v e b ee n s ta r te d ? MS N G O YE: N o t y e t. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : We ll th e la s t p o in t th a t y o u ma k e is th a t y o u h a ve g r a v e d iffic u lty h e r e a n d in th e H ig h C o u r t in r e s p e c t o f th e r e v ie w 10 a p p lic a tio n in r eg a r d to p a in tin g a fu ll p ic tu r e . Wo u ld y o u te ll th e C h a ir p er so n in e s s en c e wh a t th e d iff ic u ltie s w e r e ? MS N G O YE : C h a ir, th e c h a lle n g e s th a t w e h a d in fin d in g in fo r ma tio n a t PR ASA w e r e g r a v e b e c a us e y o u k en o th e i n fo r ma tio n w a s ju s t n o t th e r e r e a lly s o w e s tr u gg le d w he n w e to o k th ese p a p e rs to C o u r t. What we u n d e rs to o d h a d tr a n s p ir ed w a s th a t a M r Mo n ta n a h a d a s p e c ia l IT s e rv ic es a n e mp lo y e e w h o w as r e a lly lo ok in g a fte r h is IT r e la te d is s ue s , Mr Tu s i, I w ill g e t h is s u r n a me n o w. H is n a me is ... [in d is tin c t] h e w a s o n e o f PR AS A’s I T s p e c ia lis ts , th a t is p a r a g r a p h 5 2 , C h a ir p e rs o n . C H A IR PER SO N : 20 MS N G O YE: Ja. W h o it w a s fo u n d th a t h e o n th e in s tr u c tio n o f Mr Mo n ta n a h a d d e le te d in fo r ma tio n a t PR ASA o n PR ASA’s s e r v ic e re la tin g to a n y th in g r e la te d to in fo r ma tio n p e r ta in in g Mr Mo n ta n a a n d a lo t o f th e in fo r ma tio n th a t w a s r eq u ir e d for th e s e tra n s ac tio n s . So w ilfu lly w h a t h a p p e n ed w a s th a t h e w a s th e n d is c ip lin ed a s w e ll a n d h e w a s fo u n d g u ilty a n d h e w a s d is mis s e d . So y o u k n o w th e s tr u g g le s w ith th e Page 209 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 in fo r ma tio n w e r e th e re b e ca u s e th ey w ere d e s tr oy e d a n d I th in k th a t C h a ir ha v in g r e fe r en c e to Mr – D r Mo lo fe ’s in fo r ma tio n e xp r es s es th e s a me y o u kn o w d iffic u ltie s a s w e ll a n d fr u s tr a tio n s a r o un d g e ttin g in fo r ma tio n a t PR AS A. So , w e w e r e a ls o s ad d le d w ith th a t p r o b le m. C H A IR PER SO N : We ll th e n p le a s e mak e a v a ila b le th a t d ec is io n in r e la tio n to Mr H o le le D in s g wa y o . MS N G O YE: Ye s , b e c a u s e th a t d is c ip lin ary h e a r ing w a s a ls o c on d u c te d b y a n e x te r na l p a r ty s o th e r e co r d ing s w ill be th e r e . C H A IR PER SO N : 10 Ye s , th a t is imp o r ta n t n o w. A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : Mr C h a ir p e r s on th a t th e n is th e e v id e n ce a t th is s ta g e , th e f ir s t s ta g e a n d a s I in d ic a te d e a r lie r to d a y, C h a ir p e rs o n . Th e n e x t s ta g e w e w ill tr y a n d wr a p up a ll th e e v id e nc e r e la tin g to PR ASA in c lu d in g th e lo o s e e n d fr o m h e r e w h ic h i s w h y w e th o u g h t it ma y b e b e tte r to a s k y o u if w e c a n th e n a d jo u r n to da y. C H A IR PER SO N : N o , th a t is fin e . We w ill f in d s o me time in th e n ex t fe w mo n th s fo r a lo t to h a v e fo r to c o n tin u e w ith th is s e c o n d s es s io n . A D V VA S SO N I( SC ) : C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s . An d Mis s N g o y e d o try to g o fin d in fo r ma tio n a s to w h e n th a t fiv e h u n d r e d a n d fifty millio n r a n d w a s p a id . 20 MS N G O YE: I w ill d o , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : Ye s , a n d th e o f c o u r s e n ex t time y o u w ill s till d e a l w ith th e q u e s tio n o f w h a t if a n y th in g h a s c h a n g ed in PR ASA . MS N G O YE: Ye s , C h a ir. Th a t is d e fin i te ly. Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: Sin c e th e s e time s . Ye s , C h a ir. Page 210 of 211 17 MARCH 2020 – DAY 225 C H A IR PER SO N : MS N G O YE: O k a y, th a n k y o u ve r y much . I t h a s b e e n a lo n g d a y It h a s . C H A IR PER SO N : An d it h a s b e e n tw o lo n g d a y s fo r y o u a n d w e w ill c o n tin u e o n th e d a y s th a t w ill b e a n n o u n ce d s o le t u s le a v e it a t th a t. Th e n w e a d jo u rn th e p r o c ee d in gs fo r th e d a y. We a d jo u r n . R EG ISTR A R : All r is e . IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S SIN E D IE 10 Page 211 of 211