C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

1 7 M AY 2 0 1 9

D AY 9 5

20

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
HEARING RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON : Good morning.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

M s S e l lo , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.

This is no t

b e c a u s e o f m e th is ti m e t h a t w e a r e s t a r t i n g a f e w m i n u t e s l a t e i t is t h e
t e c h n ic ia n s , te c h n ic a l p e o p l e w h o n e e d e d t o s o r t s o m e t h i n g o u t f o r
television.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n i t is m e I t a k e f u l l r e s p o n s i b i li ty.
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I k n o w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
Fr a n c i s C a l la r d .

W e s ta r t t o d a y w i t h th e e v id e n c e o f M r

M r C a l la r d h a s p r e p a r e d th r e e – a s t a te m e n t a n d

a n n e x u r e s . Th e y s p a n t h r e e fi le s . T h e t w o b i g a r c h l e v e r fi le s w e h a v e
t a k e n t h e li b e r t y o f m a r k i n g B B 4 [ a ] , B B 4 [ b ] t h e s e c o n d f il e a n d C h a i r
y o u s h o u l d h a v e to g e th e r w i t h t h o s e f il e s a b la c k f o ld e r m a r k e d B B 4 [c ]
I w il l t a lk to t h a t f o l d e r i n a s h o r t w h il e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B l a c k f o l d e r.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir th e b a c k i s b la c k t h a t is th e s id e I
a m u s in g to o .

I h a d n o b e t t e r w a y o f d e s c r i b i n g i t C h a ir.

And that

w o u ld b e B B 4 [ c ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h fil e c o n t a i n i n g M r C a l la r d ’s s ta t e m e n t
w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t B B 4 [ a ] a n d th e o th e r l e v e r a r c h f il e w il l b e

Page 2 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
marked Exhibit BB4[b] and
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d a t th is j u n c t u r e m a y I a d d r e s s m y s e l f t o
t h e b l a c k f o l d e r i f I m a y c a ll i t t h a t s ti ll . T h e C h a ir w il l n o ti c e t h a t th a t
is m a r k e d s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Where is – where is that?

I t i s c e r t a i n ly n o t o n t h e

outside.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

U n fo r t u n a t e l y n o t.

At page – at page – the

in d e x o f t h a t b u n d l e th e d e s c r ip t io n i s s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t o f Mr
Fr a n c i s Q u i n t i n C a l la r d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f o l d e r w h ic h h a s g o t M r C a ll a r d ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t B B 4 [ c ] .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B e f o r e I a s k f o r t h e s w e a r in g in o f M r C a ll a r d
I w o u l d l ik e t o a d d r e s s t h e C h a ir o n B B 4 [ c ] .
CHAIRPERSON :
c o r r e c t ly.

O h I a m s o r r y I m a y h a v e p r o n o u n c e d h is s u r n a m e

M r C a l la r d I a m s o r r y I t h i n k I m a y h a v e s a i d C u l l a n d .

I

a p o lo g i s e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

F il e B B 4 [ c ] t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y i t h a s g o t a

s t a te m e n t a n d a b o u t n i n e a n n e x u r e s .

I w o u ld l ik e t o p o i n t o u t t h a t

t h e r e a r e n o fa c t u a l a ll e g a t io n s a d v a n c e d
s t a te m e n t .

i n t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y

T h e p u r p o s e o f th e s t a t e m e n t i s t o in tr o d u c e f u r th e r

d o c u m e n ts t h a t M r C a l la r d h a d o m i t t e d in h is m a in s t a te m e n t .

Page 3 of 200

So we

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w i ll r e f e r to t h o s e e x tr a a n n e x u r e s a s a n d w h e n th e y a r is e i n t h e c o u r s e
o f d e l iv e r y o f h is te s t i m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Against that background

m a y I a s k f o r Mr C a l la r d t o b e s w o r n in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
REGISTRAR:
10

Fr a n c is Q u e n ti n C a ll a r d .

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r th a t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e w ill b e
t h e t r u t h ; th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u t h ; i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e
y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o h e l p m e G o d .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r C a ll a r d y o u h e a r d m e r e f e r r i n g to y o u r

v a r io u s fi le s w h e n a d d r e s s i n g th e C h a ir. Yo u s h o u l d h a v e to y o u r l e f t
t w o a r c h l e v e r fi l e s a t th e s p in e w it h y o u r n a m e a n d t h e f ir s t o n e i s
m a r k e d B B 4 [ a ] s m a ll a a n d t h e s e c o n d is m a r k e d B B 4 [ b ] s m a ll b . Yo u

Page 4 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s h o u l d h a v e th e l i tt l e f o l d e r I w il l r e p h r a s e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a f r a id t o s a y b l a c k ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I a m r e f r a in i n g f r o m g i v i n g i t a c o l o u r C h a ir.

W h i c h a s I e x p l a i n e d t o t h e C h a ir is y o u r s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t
t o g e th e r w i t h a n n e x u r e s th a t h a s b e e n m a r k e d B B 4 [c ] .

E a c h ti m e I

w a n t y o u t o r e fe r t o a p a r tic u la r d o c u m e n t I w i ll d o s o w it h r e f e r e n c e t o
t h e ir f il e t o h e l p – to a s s is t u s to l o c a t e t h e d o c u m e n t . N o w c o u l d y o u
p l e a s e t u r n to B B 4 – h a v e b e f o r e y o u B B 4 [ a ]?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I h a v e .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r C a l la r d d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t y o u h a v e

s u b m i tt e d a s t a t e m e n t t o t h i s c o m m is s i o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I d o .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d i f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 0 0 1 o f

B B 4 [ a ] i s t h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t ? If y o u – i t s h o u ld r u n u p to p a g e 5 9 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is m y s t a t e m e n t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d a t p a g e 5 9 d o y o u c o n f ir m t h e s ig n a tu r e
a p p e a r i n g a t th e e n d o f t h a t d o c u m e n t is y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is m y s i g n a t u r e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

Th a n k y o u S ir.

Now before I ask you –

a p o lo g i e s . B e fo r e I a s k y o u t o c o n f ir m t h i s s t a te m e n t y o u h a v e b r o u g h t
t o my a t t e n t io n t h a t t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f c o r r e c t io n s y o u w o u l d l ik e to
e ffe c t t o th is s t a te m e n t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e r e a r e .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

C a n w e ta k e t h is o p p o r t u n i ty t h e n to g iv e

e ffe c t t o t h o s e c o r r e c ti o n s a n d w e s h a l l b e l e d b y y o u i n th is r e g a r d .

Page 5 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
P l e a s e r e fe r t o t h e p a g e , t h e p a r a g r a p h – t h e s p e c if ic p a r a g r a p h a n d
t h e n a d d r e s s y o u r s e l f t o t h e n a tu r e o f c o r r e c t i o n y o u w o u l d l ik e
e ffe c t e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h a n k y o u . A n d f o r t h e c o r r e c ti o n s
is w e c o u l d f ir s t t u r n t o p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h 2 6 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

That date April 2012 should read

A p r il 2 0 1 3 . I n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 . 1 t h e r e is t h e p h r a s e a d d i ti o n a l 11 9 E f o r
t h e s a k e o f c la r i ty a n d to a v o i d c o n f u s io n p le a s e d e le t e th e w o r k
10

a d d it i o n a l a n d ju s t r e a d f o r 11 9 E lo c o m o t iv e s . Fu r t h e r o n i n th is …
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y t h a t s e c o n d c o r r e c ti o n is i n w h ic h

paragraph?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 6 . 1
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e s e c o n d li n e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S e c o n d li n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a d d it i o n a l is t h e …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s i t g iv e s t h e w r o n g i m p r e s s i o n
t h a t i t is a d d e d t o b u t I a m
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

B u t I a m r e fe r r i n g a c tu a l ly t o a n

o r i g in a l .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

S o – b u t a ll o f t h e s e a r e d e a lt w i t h i n t h e

supplementary or not yet?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o C h a ir t h e y a r e n o t d e a l t w i t h i n t h e

Page 6 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y a s u p p l e m e n t a r y – a n o t h e r s u p p l e m e n ta r y w il l

b e s u b m i t te d w h ic h w il l p o i n t th e c o r r e c t io n s o u t ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e w il l d o s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d m y a p o lo g ie s f o r t h e n u m b e r
of them.

A l s o in th e s a m e p a r a g r a p h I i n c o r r e c tl y s p e lt t h e n a m e

M a h o m e d y t h a t s h o u l d r e a d M - a - h - o - m - m - o - d - y. I w o u l d f u r t h e r l ik e t o
10

correct paragraph 27.1.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r C a l l a r d p le a s e e x c u s e m e . I n r e l a t i o n t o

t h e c h a n g e to M r M a h o m e d y ’s n a m e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u w o u ld lik e to c h a n g e i t fr o m M o h a –

mmody to
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

M o h o m m o d y.

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : M o h o m m o d y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M o h a m m e d M o h o m m o d y.
CHAIRPERSON : E instead of the …
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Instead of o
CHAIRPERSON : Second o.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y e a p o l o g i e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

So you have Mohommody right now and you

Page 7 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w o u ld lik e to c h a n g e i t t o M o h o m m o d y
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : D y j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s t h a n k y o u . P le a s e c o n t in u e .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Further to paragraph 27.1 please

c h a n g e t h a t 11 9 E t o 11 0 1 9 E . I f I m a y f u r t h e r g o to p a g e 9 p l e a s e a t
the bottom paragraph 40.6.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

A n d t h a t s h o u l d r e a d t o th e

s t a te m e n t p a r a 9 0 a n d n o t p a g e 9 0 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

To p a g e 1 0 0 – t o p a g e 1 5

p a r a g r a p h 6 2 t h e to p l i n e . I t is N a t a s h a M c M a h o n a n d t h e M c M a h o n is
s p e l t i n c o r r e c t ly. Th e c o r r e c t s p e l li n g is M c M a h o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

I f I m a y tu r n t o p a g e 2 0 p l e a s e .

T h e t o p p a r a g r a p h th e n u m b e r i n g is o n t h e p r e v i o u s p a g e t h e r e s h o u l d
b e a f u l l s to p o n t h e t h i r d l in e a f t e r 3 8 1 4 6 m i ll io n . T h e r e is a fu ll s t o p
20

m is s i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : That last one is on page?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P a g e 2 0 .
CHAIRPERSON : 20. And on paragraph?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th e t o p p a r a g r a p h i t is p a r a g r a p h
83.

Page 8 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B u t i t is j u s t b e f o r e p a r a g r a p h 8 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y j u s t r e p e a t th e c o r r e c t io n a g a in ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t i s fu ll s t o p a ft e r 3 8 1 4 . 1 4 –

3 8 1 4 6 m i ll io n v a r io u s a m e n d m e n t s w e r e r e q u e s t e d .

There is a full

s t o p [ in d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h 3 8 . T h a t is w h a t y o u m e a n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

3 8 .1 4 6 m i ll io n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h t h e f u l l s t o p c o m e s a f te r ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A f t e r m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y t h a n k y o u . B u t th e r e is a ls o a d o t o r p o in t
a ft e r 3 8 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e s h o u ld b e o r ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It s h o u l d r e a d 3 8 . 1 4 6 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .

20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u M r C a l la r d y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

Thank you.

P a g e 2 2 p le a s e

p a r a g r a p h 1 0 2 . F o r c l a r i t y th a t s h o u l d r e a d i n A p r il 2 0 1 3 j u s t t o a v o i d
c o n fu s i o n . P a r a g r a p h 1 0 2 r e a d s in A p r il 2 0 1 3 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

Paragraph – page 26 paragraph

Page 9 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
1 0 5 . 4 f ir s t l i n e 1 8 A p r il p l e a s e c h a n g e 2 0 1 4 t o 2 0 1 3 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Is that at page 26?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s a t p a g e 2 6 . P a g e 2 7 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Just a second.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C h a ir h a v e y o u l o c a t e d p a g e 2 6 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I h a v e d e c id e d n o t to c o n ti n u e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : To s to p . O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e t o o m a n y.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M y a p o l o g i e s th e y a r e .
CHAIRPERSON :

I th i n k w h a t w e s h o u l d d o i s a s u p p le m e n t a r y

s t a te m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t m u s t b e d o n e a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e a n d th e n o n e
m u s t j u s t fi n d a w a y to h a v e s o m e t h i n g o n t h e m a i n s ta t e m e n t t h a t w i ll
in d i c a t e th a t o n e m u s t g o to t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t t o g e t th e
c o r r e c t io n . S o – s o i f i t is – i f it is fi n e w i t h y o u h e c a n c o n ti n u e a n d
fi n i s h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O t h e r w is e I t h i n k a s a n d w h e n a s h e p r o c e e d s w i t h

h is e v i d e n c e h e c a n j u s t p o in t .
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e n h e w i ll p o in t o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a i n t h a t i n r e g a r d t o c e r ta i n p a r a g r a p h s th e r e i s a n
e r r o r a n d th e n – s o th a t w il l b e o n t h e r e c o r d a s w e l l .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e w il l d o t h a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A s w e g e t t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e a c o r r e c t io n is

Page 10 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
r e q u ir e d p a r tic u la r ly in r e g a r d t o a d a t e b e c a u s e t h a t is v e r y r e le v a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e w il l p o i n t i t o u t a t th a t j u n c tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h e n – o n M o n d a y w e w il l b r i n g a f u ll

s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

L is te d a ll t h e c o r r e c ti o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n

e ffe c t e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e w il l d o s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja okay thank you.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

W e w i ll th e n l e a v e t h e c o r r e c t i o n s a s i d e f o r

n o w M r C a l la r d a s y o u h a v e u n d e r s t o o d w e w il l a ffe c t th e m a s w e g o
a l o n g s h o u l d t h e n e e d a r is e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO : Before we get into your topic for the day could
y o u p le a s e g iv e t h e C h a ir a s e n s e o f y o u r b a c k g r o u n d , y o u r s e r v i c e in
Tr a n s n e t, p o s i ti o n s y o u h a v e h e ld a n d b a s ic a lly i n b r i e f w h a t y o u
20

functions have been over the period?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th a n k y o u . W e ll I q u a l if i e d w i th a
B a c h e l o r o f Sc ie n c e i n E l e c tr ic a l E n g i n e e r i n g i n 1 9 7 0 a n d I j o i n e d
Tr a n s n e t i n O c t o b e r 1 9 7 0 a s a n a s s is t a n t e n g in e e r.

I had some

s e r v ic e s Tr a n s n e t f o r a p e r io d o f s o m e tw e n t y – f o r ty o d d y e a r s a n d I
r e tir e d i n A p r i l 2 0 1 2 . I w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly c o n t r a c t e d b a c k t o Tr a n s n e t

Page 11 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
f o r a f u r th e r p e r i o d o f fiv e y e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I j u s t w a n te d t o s a y i t l o o k s y o u k n o w o n l y o n e
employer?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : M a n y a s p e c t s o f th a t e m p l o y e r b u t
o n e e m p l o y e r.

D u r i n g m y s o m e 4 5 y e a r s w i th Tr a n s n e t I h a d v a r io u s

p o r t f o l i o s i n Fr e ig h t R a il a n d I g a i n e d s i g n i fic a n t e x p e r i e n c e i n b o t h
r a i l w a y s i g n a ll in g , m a n a g i n g m a j o r n e w w o r k s p r o je c ts , i n f o r m a t io n
10

t e c h n o l o g y,

r a il w a y

o p e r a ti o n s ,

r a il w a y

i n fr a s tr u c t u r e

business,

r e s tr u c t u r i n g a n d e n g i n e e r i n g , b u s in e s s s t r a te g y a n d I e n d e d my c a r e e r
w i t h t h e d e v e lo p m e n t o f b u s i n e s s c a s e s f o r m a j o r c a p i t a l p r o j e c t s
c o v e r in g t h e t e c h n ic a l a n d f i n a n c ia l j u s t if ic a ti o n a n d t h e v i a b il i ty o f
t h o s e p r o j e c ts .

T h e s e b u s i n e s s c a s e s c o v e r e d i n p a r ti c u l a r t h e

r e q u ir e m e n t a n d t h e fi n a n c i a l s c o p e o f c a p it a l r e l a t e d to t h e a c q u i s i ti o n
a n d m a i n te n a n c e o f i n fr a s tr u c t u r e l o c o m o ti v e s a n d w a g o n s .

A n d th a t

w a s r e a lly t h e – w h a t o c c u p i e d m y l a s t fi v e y e a r s w i t h Tr a n s n e t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d j u s t t o c o m p le t e t h a t w h a t a r e y o u – w h a t
d o y o u c u r r e n t ly d o ? A r e y o u e m p lo y e d ?
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I a m c u r r e n tl y – I h a v e b e e n

c o n tr a c te d b y M N S A t t o r n e y s a n d I a s s is t t h e m w it h s p e c i a l is e d r a i l w a y
e x p e r t is e i n t h e c o u r s e o f th e ir i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n t o t h e a c q u i s i ti o n o f t h e
lo c o m o t iv e s a n d t h is w a s i n t e r m s o f t h e m a n d a t e g i v e n t o t h e m b y t h e
Tr a n s n e t b o a r d o f d ir e c t o r s . A n d I d i d o t h e r t r a n s – a n o th e r Tr a n s n e t
r e l a t e d in v e s t i g a t io n a t t h e r e q u e s t o f Tr a n s n e t w h ic h w i ll a p p e a r l a t e r

Page 12 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
in m y e v i d e n c e .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u . A t y o u p a r a g r a p h 1 .1 y o u p r o v id e
t h e s c o p e o f y o u r te s t i m o n y b e f o r e t h e C h a ir t o d a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s s o y e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e k n o w th a t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n t o Tr a n s n e t
a r e v e r y w i d e a n d b r o a d b u t y o u r t e s ti m o n y w il l b e l i m i te d o n l y t o t w o
m a in is s u e s . C o u l d y o u id e n ti fy t h e m f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : C e r ta i n ly a n d t h o s e t w o is s u e s a r e
t h e a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e 1 0 0 2 1 E l o c o m o tiv e s a n d t h e a c q u i s i ti o n o f t h e
10

1 0 6 4 a s w e w il l c a l l i t d i e s e l a n d e l e c tr i c l o c o m o ti v e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank you.

H a v i n g c o v e r e d th o s e a s p e c t s

t h e n M r C a ll a r d t h a t b r in g s u s to p a g e 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . A n d y o u
s t a r t a t p a r a g r a p h 11 w i th a b a c k g r o u n d t o Tr a n s n e t Fr e i g h t R a i l . W h a t
w o u ld y o u l ik e t o b r i n g t o th e C h a ir ’s a tt e n ti o n i n r e s p e c t t h e r e t o ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I w o u l d r e a l ly ju s t l ik e to b r in g t o
t h e a tt e n ti o n t h a t Tr a n s n e t is a n o p e r a ti n g c o r r e c ti o n Tr a n s n e t Fr e ig h t
R a il i t is a n o p e r a ti n g d i v is i o n o f t h e Tr a n s n e t s t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n y
L i m i t e d a n d i t i s r e c o g n i s e d a s t h e n a ti o n a l F r e i g h t R a il c a r r i e r in S o u t h
A fr ic a .
20

It i s a – a s a Fr e ig h t R a i l c o m p a n y i t is a h e a v y h a u l Fr e i g h t

R a il c o m p a n y it s p e c ia li s e s i n t r a n s p o r ta t io n o f fr e ig h t w i th a n
e x t e n s iv e r a il n e t w o r k w h ic h t h e d e t a ils a r e g iv e n t h e r e . A n d w i t h i ts
e x t e n t it c o v e r s s o m e 8 0 % o f A f r ic a ’s t o ta l r a i l n e t w o r k . F o r c o n te x t t o
w h a t w i ll f o ll o w i n 2 0 1 3 /1 4 a n d I q u o te t h e f ig u r e s fr o m t h e n w e t r a n s –
Fr e i g h t R a i l tr a n s p o r t e d 2 0 8 . 5 m il li o n t o n n e s w h i c h w a s m a d e u p o f I
w i ll r o u n d th e f i g u r e s 5 3 m il li o n to n n e s o f e x p o r t ir o n o r e t h r o u g h

Page 13 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
S a ld a h n a . W e w il l n o t b e a d d r e s s i n g th a t a t a ll . 6 2 m il li o n t o n n e s o f
c o a l t h r o u g h w h a t w e c a ll t h e e x p o r t c o a l l in e th r o u g h R i c h a r d s B a y b u t
o f p a r ti c u l a r i m p o r t a n c e w h i c h w il l f o ll o w w i ll b e t h e 8 6 t o n n e – mi ll i o n
t o n n e s o f g e n e r a l fr e i g h t a n d w h e r e t h a t m o v e s . T h is i s q u i te e x t e n s i v e
it r e p r e s e n ts s o m e 1 4 % o f S o u t h A fr ic a ’s r a i l t o n n a g e . T h e d e t a i ls o f
t h e n e t w o r k b e l o w b u t w h a t I w o u l d j u s t l ik e t o b r i n g m o r e to t h e f o r e i s
t h a t w e h a v e – Fr e i g h t R a i l h a s a p p r o x i m a t e ly 2 1 3 2 l o c o m o tiv e s a t t h a t
ti m e a n d t h a t is r e l e v a n t t o t h e 1 0 6 4 p r o c e s s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

Yo u h a v e in c l u d e d in y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y

s t a te m e n t s o m e p ic t u r e s a n d i f I m a y c a l l fo r a n n e x u r e A t o th e
s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t a n d i f y o u c o u l d e x p l a in t h a t i n r e la t io n t o y o u r
paragraphs 13 and 14 just so we have proper context before we deal
w i t h y o u r e v id e n c e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u . I f w e c o u l d …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C h a ir t h a t w i ll b e i n y o u r B B 4 [c ] a t p a g e 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . C y o u s a id h e ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: BB4[c] page 5.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 5 . J a . Th a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : We are at page 5.

20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W e a r e o n p a g e 5 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Annexure A.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Thank you.

I w o u ld li k e t o p o i n t

o u t t h a t t h is s li d e d e p i c t s t h e b r o a d ly t h e n e t w o r k a s I d e s c r i b e d it . O n
t h e l e f t h a n d s i d e w e w i ll h a v e th e ir o n o r e li n e . O n t h e r ig h t h a n d s id e
w e h a v e t h e c o a l li n e .

T h e o r a n g e n e t w o r k is t h e g e n e r a l fr e i g h t

Page 14 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
n e t w o r k a n d t h e b lu e n e t w o r k is th e b r a n c h li n e .

W h a t I w o u ld

p a r t ic u l a r ly li k e t o h i g h l ig h t fr o m t h is b e c a u s e i t b e c o m e s r e le v a n t
la t e r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Is th e c o n c e p t o f a x i l l o a d in g . T h e
ir o n o r e li n e y o u w il l s e e h a s a n a x i l l o a d i n g o f 3 0 t o n n e s a n d t h e
c o n c e p t o f t h e a x il l o a d i n g i s t h e p ic tu r e o n th e to p l e f t h a n d c o r n e r
w h e r e i t r e l a te s t o th e w e i g h t o f t h e a x il o n th e r a il a n d th e p o i n t
c o n ta c t .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR

FRANCIS

QUENTIN

C A L LA R D :

The

r a il

network,

th e

rail

in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d s u p p o r t in g i n f r a s t r u c t u r e i s d e s i g n e d t o s u p p o r t a n
axil loading mass.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

A n d t h is r e la t e s t o th e w e i g h t o f

t h e lo c o m o t iv e s a n d th e w e i g h t o f t h e w a g o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d t h is i s a – a o n e d e li n e a ti o n o f
the network.
20

T h e c o a l l in e a s y o u w ill s e e h a s a n a x il lo a d i n g o f 2 6

t o n n e s p e r a x il . T h e g e n e r a l f r e ig h t n e tw o r k w h ic h is t h e b r o w n h a s a n
a x i l lo a d i n g o f 2 0 to n n e s p e r n e tw o r k a n d th e b r a n c h li n e – s o r r y t h e
o n e in t h e s ta t e m e n t h a s a s li g h tly is b e t w e e n 1 6 t o 1 8 . 5 t o n n e s p e r
a x i l w h i c h w e w il l s e e o n th e – to w a r d s t h e b o t t o m r i g h t h a n d s i d e . O f
c r i ti c a l i m p o r t a n c e t o t h is is t h a t a l o c o m o tiv e a n d o r w a g o n m a y n o t
tr a v e r s e th a t p a r t o f t h e n e t w o r k w i t h a l o w e r a x il l o a d i n g t h a n i t h a s .

Page 15 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
S o f o r e x a m p l e a 2 6 t o n n e l o c o m o tiv e c a n n o t tr a v e r s e th e 2 0 to n n e
g e n e r a l f r e ig h t n e tw o r k . A 2 0 to n n e w a g o n o r lo c o m o t iv e fr o m g e n e r a l
fr e i g h t c a n n o t tr a v e r s e a b r a n c h li n e w i t h a n a x i l lo a d i n g o f 1 8 . 5 . Th e
c o n v e r s e o f c o u r s e i s d i ffe r e n t b e c a u s e a w a g o n o r l o c o m o t iv e w it h a
le s s e r a x i l lo a d i n g c a n n o t o f c o u r s e tr a v e r s e a n e t w o r k w i th a h ig h e r
a x i l lo a d i n g . S o y o u c a n p u t a 2 0 t o n n e w a g o n o n a 2 6 to n n e n e t w o r k
that is not a problem.

I t i s t h e g o i n g d o w n th a t is t h e p r o b le m .

A

d is t in c ti o n w h ic h i s n o t o n th e s li d e i s th a t l o c o m o t i v e s f o r t h e g e n e r a l
fr e i g h t n e tw o r k a r e a t 2 2 t o n n e s p e r a x i l .
10

T h i s is a s p e c if ic

d is p e n s a t i o n f o r t h e l o c o s o n l y i t d o e s n o t h o l d f o r th e w a g o n s .
importance

o f th is

s li d e

is i t d e l i n e a t e s s p e c if ic

o p e r a ti o n s f o r v a r i o u s c a t e g o r i e s o f r o l li n g s t o c k

boundaries

The
of

th a t b o u n d a r y

d e f in i ti o n w il l b e c o m e m o r e c le a r a n d i m p o r ta n t l a t e r. I f I m a y m o v e t o
t h e s e c o n d s l id e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h e n e t w o r k is a ls o c h a r a c te r is e d
b y t h e ty p e o f tr a c ti o n a c r o s s t h e n e t w o r k .
lo c o m o t iv e s .

W e h a v e v a r i o u s ty p e s o f

Th e p r i m a r y d is ti n c ti o n b e tw e e n a r e t h e y d ie s e l o r

e l e c tr ic a n d t h e e l e c tr ic s a r e f u r t h e r s u b - d iv i d e d i n to c a t e g o r ie s o f a r e
20

t h e y d i r e c t c u r r e n t l o c o m o ti v e s w h i c h a r e t h e o ld e r ty p e , a l t e r n a t in g
c u r r e n t l o c o m o ti v e s a r e th e n e w e r t y p e a n d e v e n t h e n e w l o c o m o t iv e s
a r e d i ff e r e n t i a t e d i n t o 2 5 k i l o v o l t a lt e r n a ti n g c u r r e n t o r 5 0 k i l o v o l t
a l t e r n a t in g c u r r e n t. O f p r i m e c o n s i d e r a t i o n h e r e fo r t h e g e n e r a l fr e i g h t
n e t w o r k i s t h e e a r li e r l o c o m o t iv e s w e r e o f o n e p a r t ic u l a r v o lt a g e . S o a
3 K V D 3 l o c o m o ti v e c o u ld o n ly tr a v e r s e w h a t w e w o u l d s e e a s t h e p u r p le

Page 16 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
li n e I – p u r p l e b l u e li n e a n d i t w o u l d b e l i m i te d to t h a t .

A 25KV AC

lo c o m o t iv e – s o r r y i f w e c o u l d – c o u l d o n ly tr a v e l a 2 5 K V n e t w o r k a n d i t
c o u l d n o t m o v e o v e r to a D C n e t w o r k .

T h e n e w e r lo c o m o t iv e s a n d

p a r t ic u l a r ly t h o s e a r e th e 1 0 6 4 th e e l e c tr i c l o c o m o ti v e s w e r e s p e c i fi e d
a s d u a l v o l ta g e l o c o m o t iv e s e n a b li n g t h e m t o t r a v e r s e b o t h t h e d ir e c t
c u r r e n t a n d t h e a lt e r n a ti n g c u r r e n t n e t w o r k s t h e D C o r t h e A C n e t w o r k
g iv i n g t h e m f a r g r e a t e r o p e r a ti o n a l fl e x i b ili ty.

I t h i n k i t g o e s w it h o u t

s a y in g t h a t a d ie s e l l o c o m o ti v e c a n g o a n y w h e r e s u b je c t t o i ts a x il
lo a d i n g .
10

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : I f I – i f I m a y g o b a c k t o y o u r A n n e x u r e A a n d
ju s t s o w e u n d e r s t a n d a s y o u g o t h r o u g h y o u r t e s t i m o n y if w e c o u l d g o
b a c k . W o u l d i t b e a c o r r e c t s u m m a t io n o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y t h u s f a r t h a t
in o r d e r t o tr a n s p o r t c o a l y o u r e q u ir e a 2 6 t o n n e a x il t o t r a n s p o r t c o a l ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Ye s a f e a t u r e o f th a t is th e m o r e

p o w e r f u l t h e lo c o m o t iv e t h e m o r e h e a v ie r it h a s t o b e . Th a t h a s t o d o
w i t h h o w i t – th e w h e e ls g r ip s th e r a il s o t h e m o r e p o w e r f u l t h e
lo c o m o t iv e t h e m o r e h e a v i e r. G iv e n t h a t t h e c o a l l i n e r u n s 2 0 0 w a g o n
tr a i n s t h e y h a v e a n a p p r o x i m a t e w e i g h t o f b e t w e e n 1 6 0 0 0 o r 1 6 5 0 0
tonnes.
20

T h e y h a v e m o r e p o w e r f u l l o c o m o ti v e s t h a n t h o s e w h ic h

o p e r a t e o n t h e g e n e r a l fr e i g h t l in e a t 2 2 t o n n e s p e r a x il . S o t h e r e i s a
v e r y d e fi n it e p o w e r d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e ty p e s o f l o c o m o ti v e s o v e r
t h e v a r io u s s e c t o r s o f th e n e t w o r k .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u . A t p a g e 4 y o u t h e n p r o v i d e a v e r y
b r i e f h is t o r y o f th e a c q u is it i o n o f l o c o m o tiv e s f o r – b y Tr a n s n e t in
p a r t ic u l a r ly f o r fr e i g h t .

Could you work

Page 17 of 200

– c o u l d y o u ta k e t h e

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C h a ir p e r s o n th r o u g h t h a t a s p e c t o f y o u r te s t i m o n y ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
t h e p a r a g r a p h s v e r y b r i e fly.

C e r t a i n l y a n d I w i ll t a lk t o th e –

A r o u n d 2 0 0 8 / 9 I w a s ta s k e d b y M r

S iy a b o n g a G a m a t h e n th e F r e i g h t R a i l C h i e f E x e c u t iv e t o d e v e l o p a
lo c o m o t iv e fl e e t p la n f o r Fr e i g h t R a il . I f I m a y a d d th a t t h e l a s t ti m e w e
h a d b o u g h t a l o c o m o tiv e f o r g e n e r a l fr e i g h t w a s i n 1 9 9 2 . S o th e r e h a d
b e e n a s i g n i f ic a n t p e r i o d b e f o r e s i n c e w e h a d b o u g h t l o c o m o ti v e s f o r
g e n e r a l fr e i g h t a n d r e p l a c e m e n t w a s b e c o m i n g q u i te u r g e n t .

And I

d e v e l o p e d th is in i ti a l f le e t p l a n w i th c o n c e p ts – f l e e t p l a n c o n c e p t w i t h
10

v a r io u s e x p e r ts fr o m F r e ig h t R a il . I n 2 0 1 0 I h a n d e d o v e r r e s p o n s ib il i ty
f o r t h is f l e e t p la n t o o n e Vi l v a N a ir a c o ll e a g u e a s e n i o r m a n a g e r w h o
d e v e l o p e d a f iv e y e a r p la n f o r l o c o m o t iv e s w h ic h w a s m a tc h e d t o
m a r k e t r e q u ir e m e n ts . Th e r e a s o n i t is m a tc h e d t o m a r k e t r e q u ir e m e n ts
t h e l o c o m o ti v e s a r e e x p e n s iv e a s s e ts y o u o n ly w a n t a s f e w a s
n e c e s s a r y t o c o n v e y t h e r e l a t e d to n n a g e . O n e d o e s n o t w a n t t o h a v e
too

many

l o c o m o t iv e s

or

too

few

so

market

r e q u i r e m e n ts

and

lo c o m o t iv e s n e e d t o b e v e r y c l o s e ly m a tc h e d . I n 2 0 1 1 , A p r i l 2 0 11 t h is
fi v e y e a r p la n w a s p r e s e n t e d to t h e Tr a n s n e t b o a r d a n d i t r e c o m m e n d e d
t h a t w e p r o c u r e 7 7 6 l o c o m o ti v e s a n d i t w a s p r e d ic a t e d th a t t h e m a r k e t
20

w o u ld t h e n b e 1 5 5 . 8 m i ll io n to n n e s o v e r t h is fiv e y e a r p e r io d .

I

c o n tr a s t th is t o th e t o n n a g e t h e G e n e r a l Fr e i g h t c u r r e n t ly c o n v e y e d
t h e n w h i c h I m e n ti o n e d in e a r li e r o f 8 6 m il li o n t o n n e s .

One can see

t h e r e w a s a s i g n i fic a n t g r o w th . T h e b o a r d a p p r o v e d t h i s m o d e r n is a t i o n
p l a n a t a c o s t t h e n o f s o m e 2 3 . 6 b il li o n s u b j e c t to s u b m is s i o n o f a
h o li s t ic f u n d i n g p la n g iv e n t h e s i g n i fi c a n t a m o u n t o f m o n e y. T h e r e w a s

Page 18 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h e n a r o u n d t h a t t i m e a c h a n g e i n t h e s tr a t e g ic th i n k i n g w i th i n t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n .

B e c a u s e t h e r a i lw a y s a r e a v e r y c a p it a l i n t e n s iv e

in d u s tr y w e h a d th e p o l ic y o r s t r a t e g y o f r e s p o n d i n g t o m a r k e t d e m a n d .
T h a t is i f a m in e w e r e t o o p e n u p a n e w m i n e f o r e x a m p l e o n t h e c o a l
li n e o n e w o u ld s a y o k a y i f y o u g o in g t o o p e n u p t h is m i n e i n f iv e y e a r s ’
ti m e w e w il l i n c r e a s e th e c a p a c i ty o f t h e r a i l w a y s a n d w e w il l p r o c u r e
t h e r o ll in g s to c k a n d t h e w a g o n s to m e e t y o u r r e q u ir e m e n ts w h e n t h e
m i n e is – i s r e a d y f o r p r o d u c t i o n .

B u t w e h a d a ls o l o s t s i g n i fic a n t

tr a ffic t o r o a d s i n c e 1 9 9 2 a n d w e w e r e – i t w a s a s tr a t e g y fr o m t h e
10

D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e t h a t w e r e tu r n r o a d tr a ffic t o r a il a n d
t h e r e w a s c o n s i d e r a b le tr a ffi c , r a il fr ie n d l y tr a ffi c t h a t w a s r u n n i n g o n
t h e r o a d . T h is l e d t o th e c h a n g e i n s tr a te g y th a t i n s t e a d r e s p o n d in g to
m a r k e t d e m a n d to c h a n g e th e s tr a t e g y c r e a t e t h e in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d
p r o c u r e t h e a s s e ts t o c r e a t e c a p a c i t y t o a b s o r b d e m a n d t h a t w a s o u t
t h e r e s o th a t w e w e r e n o t s e e n t o b e h o l d i n g u p i n fr a s tr u c tu r e o r
in d u s tr y i n c o n v e y i n g tr a ffi c b u t t o s a y w e h a d t h e c a p a c i ty t o c r e a t e
tr a ffic .

I t w a s t h i s c r e a t i n g c a p a c i ty - a s I s a id – t o c a p tu r e t h e r a i l

fr i e n d ly tr a ffi c t h a t w a s a lr e a d y c o n v e y e d b y r o a d a n d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r C a l l a r d . J u s t th e c h a n g e o f s tr a te g y …
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

The old one where you would respond to market

demand …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is p r o b a b ly a p p li e d a c r o s s t h e

B o a r d o r m o s t o f th e ti m e b u t I a m w o n d e r i n g w h e r e y o u c h a n g e i t . I

Page 19 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
m e a n in te r ms o f t h e o l d o n e a s y o u p o i n t e d o u t i f th e r e w a s s o m e b o d y
w h o w a n t e d to o p e n a c o a l m i n e y o u w o u l d r e s p o n d t o t h a t a n d t h e n
m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e a r a i lw a y l in e a n d s o o n .

So if you

c h a n g e d it h o w w o u l d th a t w o r k a t a p r a c ti c a l l e v e l ? Yo u w o u l d n o t
b u il d a r a il w a y l in e i n t h e h o p e th a t s o m e b o d y w o u l d – w o u l d o p e n …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o , n o , n o t a t th a t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h o w w o u l d i t w o r k ? A t p r a c ti c a l l e v e l h o w w o u l d i t
work?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I f I m a y t h e n d i ff e r e n t ia t e f o r – fo r
10

a c o a l m i n e f o r e x a m p l e t h e r e , t h e r e w o u l d b e j o i n t l o n g te r m p l a n n i n g
b e c a u s e a c o a l m in e a ls o t a k e s fi v e y e a r s o r t h r e e o r fo u r y e a r s t o
c o m e t o f r u i ti o n . O n e w o u ld p l a n th e r a il w a y li n k s a n d t h e a s s e ts o v e r
a s i g n i fic a n t p e r i o d a n d h a v e t h e m a ll i n p l a c e s o th a t w h e n t h e c o a l
m i n e s t a r te d p r o d u c ti o n o n e w o u l d h a v e t h e l o c o m o t iv e s a v a i l a b le a n d
t h e w a g o n s a v a il a b l e to b e a b l e to tr a n s p o r t t h e c o a l f o r e x a m p le b u t
t h e r e w a s a l o t o f c r i ti c is m f r o m i n d u s tr y o f th e o r g a n i s a t io n a t th e
ti m e . I n d u s tr y g e n e r a l – t h e m a iz e i n d u s t r y, t h e c e m e n t, t h e c o n t a in e r
in d u s tr y, th e fu e l p e t r o le u m p r o d u c t s a ll i a n c e w h ic h s a i d w e w a n t t o
m o v e tr a ffi c b y r a i l b u t y o u d o n o t h a v e s u ffi c i e n t w a g o n s a n d y o u k e e p

20

o n t e l li n g u s y o u d o n o t h a v e e n o u g h l o c o m o t iv e s . I t is t h e r e th a t th e
s tr a t e g y c a m e w e l l w e n e e d t o b u y m o r e to c r e a t e t h i s c a p a c i ty t o
a b s o r b w h a t th e m a r k e t w a s a s k i n g u s t o d o .
CHAIRPERSON : But that – that is responding to a market demand?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e w e r e s l o w to r e s p o n d t o t h e

m a r k e t d e m a n d i f I c o u l d p u t i t th a t w a y ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 20 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b e c a u s e I a m t r y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e d is t in c ti o n
b e t w e e n t h e t w o . I f y o u – i f t h e r e a r e c o m p la i n t s f r o m t h e m a r k e t t h a t
y o u d o n o t h a v e c a p a c i ty a n d t h e y w o u l d a c t u a l ly l ik e t o m a k e u s e o f
y o u r – y o u r c o m p a n y a n d s o o n a n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h o s e c o m p l a i n ts y o u
w a n t t o d o s o m e th i n g a b o u t i t to a d d r e s s t h e c a p a c i ty is s u e y o u a r e
r e s p o n d i n g to t h e m a r k e t d e m a n d – a s I s e e i t. S o – s o I a m t r y in g t o
u n d e r s t a n d h o w a c o m p a n y s u c h a s a S t a te O w n e d E n t i ty w o u ld a t a
p r a c ti c a l le v e l n o t r e s p o n d t o a m a r k e t d e m a n d – m a r k e t d e m a n d s b u t
k in d o f c r e a t e – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r c r e a te it d e p e n d s .
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I

wish

I

c o u ld

answer

your

q u e s t io n i n t h e – i n t h e d e t a i l i t r e q u ir e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B u t t h e m a r k e t d e m a n d s tr a te g y t o
c r e a te c a p a c i t y e s s e n ti a lly it s a id w e w o u ld d o u b l e o u r a v a i l a b le
c a p a c i ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In s e v e n y e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o w h e r e o u r a v e r a g e t o n n a g e h a d
20

b e e n g r a d u a ll y i n c r e a s i n g f r o m 7 0 a r o u n d t h e 7 0 s t o t h e 8 0 m i ll io n t o n s
o f g e n e r a l fr e ig h t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I s t r e s s th is w i th th e g e n e r a l

fr e i g h t tr a ff ic . T h e m a r k e t d e m a n d s tr a te g y s a i d w e a r e n o w g o i n g to
c r e a te c a p a c it y t o d o u b l e th is t o n n a g e o v e r a p e r io d o f s e v e n y e a r s .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
N o w t h a t i s a s ig n if ic a n t i n c r e a s e a n d t h a t w a s c r e a t in g c a p a c it y t o
absorb whatever was there in the market.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o w a s it t h is t h a t y o u w o u ld l o o k a t th e c u r r e n t

s i tu a ti o n a n d t h e m a r k e t a n d t h e n m a k e a p r o j e c ti o n to s a y o v e r t h e
n e x t 1 0 y e a r s w h a t is li k e ly t o b e t h e p o s i ti o n . Is t h e p o s i t io n li k e ly t o
b e t h a t th e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a lo t o f d e m a n d a n d w e m u s t th e n m a k e
s u r e th a t w h e n th a t d e m a n d r e a c h e s t h a t l e v e l w e a r e r e a d y i n te r ms o f
o u r c a p a c it y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

It is not in my statement bu t if I

m a y g iv e …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o n te x t t o t h a t ?
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I t w a s a r o u n d t h is ti m e I h a v e s a id
t h e to n n a g e s – w e r e c o n v e y i n g a b o u t 1 4 p e r c e n t o f S o u th A f r ic a ’s
volumes.

A r o u n d th is ti m e v a r i o u s s tu d i e s w e r e d o n e o f w h a t i s t h e

t o t a l tr a n s p o r t m a r k e t i n S o u t h A f r i c a a n d th a t w a s r o u n d t h a t t i m e . I t
w a s a r o u n d 9 0 0 m il li o n t o n s . Th a t m a r k e t w a s t h e n f u r th e r s u b d i v i d e d
in t o w h a t is tr a ffic e x c lu s i v e ly f o r r o a d – w h ic h r a i l c a n n o t c o m p e t e i n 20

w h a t m a r k e t is e x c l u s i v e ly r a il – w h ic h r o a d c a n n o t c o m p e t e i n – a n d
t h e n th e r e w a s t w o s e g m e n t s i n b e tw e e n .

T h a t o f th e g e n e r a l fr e i g h t

w h ic h w e w e r e d o i n g b y r a il w h i c h w e w e r e in c o m p e t it i o n w it h r o a d a n d
t h a t o f t h e g e n e r a l fr e i g h t tr a ffic w h ic h w a s c a r r i e d b y r o a d w h ic h w e
s a i d s h o u ld b e d o n e b y r a il a n d w e c o u l d c a p t u r e t h a t b y r a i l . T h i s w a s
p a r t o f t h a t h o lis t ic t h i n k in g a n d t h is i n c r e a s e – p r e d ic te d g r o w t h – fr o m

Page 22 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h e 8 0 m il li o n t o n s t o t h is 1 7 0 m il li o n to n s w a s p r e d ic a t e d o n c a p tu r i n g
t h a t r a i l fr i e n d l y t r a ff ic i n th e to t a l m a r k e t th a t w a s c u r r e n tly c o n v e y e d
b y r o a d w it h in t h i s g r e a t e r h o li s t ic tr a n s p o r t m a r k e t o f 9 0 0 m i ll io n t o n s
c u r r e n tly i n S o u t h A f r i c a a n d i n t h a t w e in c l u d e d tr a ff ic w h ic h w a s
c o n v e y e d b y p r iv a t e c o m p a n i e s . F o r e x a m p l e m a j o r r e t a il e r s h a v e th e ir
o w n tr a n s p o r t fl e e t a n d w e c o u l d n o t g e t i n t o t h a t m a r k e t b u t t h e n th e r e
w e r e r o a d t r a n s p o r t o p e r a to r s w h o w e r e o p e r a ti n g fo r o t h e r s a n d w e
w a n t e d t o c o m p e t e a n d g e t t h e ir s l ic e o f t h e p ie – i f I m a y p u t it t h a t
w a y – a n d t h a t w a s h o w t h e c h a n g e in t h e s tr a t e g y c a m e a b o u t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . H o p e f u l ly i t w i ll b e c l e a r e r la t e r o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

C h a ir i t w il l b e c le a r e r.

W e w i ll g e t t o – i f I

m a y p o in t o u t – p a g e 1 8 w h e r e w e b r i e fly t o u c h e d o n t h is m a r k e t
d e m a n d s tr a te g y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B u t h e d e a ls w i t h i t m o r e b y w a y o f c r i tic is m .
S o h o p e fu ll y i t w il l c r y s t a ll is e a t th a t p o in t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u c o u l d j u s t c o m p le t e t h e n
y o u r – t h i s s e c ti o n …
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Sure.

Thank you.

C o m in g b a c k

t h e n t h is m a r k e t d e m a n d s t r a t e g y i m p a c t e d t h e lo c o m o t iv e fl e e t p l a n
a n d i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 I p e r s o n a ll y l e a r n t t h a t M r G a m a h a d p r e s e n te d
t h is fl e e t p l a n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic E n te r p r is e s a n d t h e n u m b e r
o f l o c o m o t iv e s h a d – t h e l o c o m o ti v e fl e e t p la n w a s e x t e n d e d fr o m fi v e
y e a r s t o s e v e n y e a r s - w h i c h f o r m s th e b a s is o f th e 1 0 6 4 p l a n f le e t

Page 23 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
p l a n – i n c r e a s e fr o m 7 7 6 t o 1 0 6 4 a n d t h e to n n a g e s h a d i n c r e a s e d t o –
fr o m t h e 1 5 5 m il li o n to n s a s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 . T h e y h a d n o w in c r e a s e d
t o t h is 1 7 6 m il li o n to n s .

S o e ffe c tiv e ly o v e r a s e v e n y e a r p e r i o d w e

w e r e p r e d i c a t in g a v ir t u a l d o u b l in g o f t h e g r o w t h o f g e n e r a l fr e i g h t. A
s ig n if ic a n t h o c k e y s t ic k e ff e c t i f y o u c o n s i d e r t h e r e l a t iv e l y f l a t li n e w e
h a d b e e n o n a n d th is v e r y r a p i d i n c r e a s e t h a t w e w e r e f o r e c a s t in g .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u i n d ic a t e d t h a t y o u r te s t i m o n y b e f o r e t h e

C h a ir t o d a y c o v e r s tw o s p e c i f ic a c q u is i t i o n s .

T h e a c q u i s i t io n o f 1 0 0

a n d th e a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e 1 0 6 4 lo c o m o t iv e s ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Fr o m p a g e 5 y o u th e n s t a r t w i t h t h a t p a r t o f

y o u r e v id e n c e r e la t in g t o t h e a c q u is it i o n o f t h e 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s a n d w e
a r e n o w a t p a g e 5 p a r a g r a p h 2 3 a n d i f y o u c o u l d ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t .
W e u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u w il l d e a l w i th t h is a s p e c t
o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y u n d e r f o u r d is ti n c t iv e h e a d in g s w h i c h y o u s e t o u t in
paragraph 24.

I f y o u c o u l d t a k e th e C h a ir t h r o u g h – t h r o u g h t h e s e

is s u e s t h a t y o u w o u l d li k e to h ig h li g h t i n s o fa r a s t h e a c q u is i t io n o f t h e
1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s i s c o n c e r n e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

J a , th a n k y o u . T h e a c q u is i ti o n o f

t h e 1 0 6 4 lo c o m o t iv e s d i d n o t p r o c e e d a s s m o o t h l y a s w e h a d i n i ti a lly
h o p e d a n d t h e r e w e r e s o m e s ig n i f ic a n t d e l a y s . T h o s e d e l a y s I w il l t a l k
t o l a te r - b u t i f w e c a n a c c e p t fo r th e m o m e n t t h a t t h e p r o g r a m w a s
d e l a y e d – b e c a u s e o f th is d e l a y in t h e p r o g r a m a n d t h e r e w a s a n u r g e n t
n e e d f o r ( i n d i s ti n c t) p o w e r i t s a id w h e r e c a n w e g e t lo c o m o t iv e s fr o m .
N o w t h e r e w e r e l o c o m o t iv e s o n t h e c o a l l i n e th a t w e r e a v a i l a b l e – c o u ld

Page 24 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
b e u s e d o n a r e a s o f t h e g e n e r a l fr e ig h t n e tw o r k b u t w e s a i d t o r e l e a s e
t h o s e lo c o m o t iv e s w e n e e d n e w lo c o m o t i v e s f o r th e c o a l li n e .

These

o l d lo c o m o t iv e s o r t h e s e l o c o m o t iv e s in t h e c o a l li n e t h a t c o u l d b e
r e l e a s e d w e r e a t th e e n d o f t h e ir e c o n o m i c li f e a n d t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o
b e a te m p o r a r y s t o p g a p in t o t h e g e n e r a l f r e ig h t n e tw o r k w h il e w e
b o u g h t – w e r e a w a i ti n g f o r t h e d e l iv e r y o f t h e 1 0 6 4 . T h e a i m – th e r e
w a s a l s o a n e e d r e q u i r e m e n t – v is i o n – t o s t a n d a r d is e t h e l o c o m o t iv e
fl e e t o n th e c o a l l i n e - a n d i f I u s e th e c o a l li n e p h r a s e p l e a s e th a t is
g e n e r a l ly t h e li n e f r o m E r m e lo C o a l F i e l d s th r o u g h to R i c h a r d s B a y – t o
10

s t a n d a r d i s e t h a t fl e e t w i th d u a l v o l t a g e l o c o m o ti v e s . As w e s a w o n t h e
n e t w o r k d ia g r a m - a n d p e r h a p s I d i d n o t m a k e it c le a r. I s h o u l d h a v e –
t h a t t h e D C N e t w o r k s to p s a t E r m e l o . T h e a l t e r n a ti n g c u r r e n t n e t w o r k
t h e n g o e s fr o m E r m e lo t o R ic h a r d s B a y a n d w e h a d t o c h a n g e
lo c o m o t iv e s a t E r m e l o .
o p e r a ti o n .

T h is i n tr o d u c e d s ig n i f ic a n t d e a ls i n t h e

D u a l v o l ta g e l o c o m o t iv e s w h i c h c o u l d tr a v e l r i g h t t h r o u g h

t h e c o a l m i n e t h r o u g h t o R ic h a r d s B a y Te r m i n a l a n d b a c k t o t h e c o a l
m i n e w o u l d s i g n i fic a n tly i m p r o v e t h e e ff ic ie n c y o f o p e r a t io n s .

Hence

w e w a n te d t o s t a n d a r d is e t h e f l e e t o n d u a l v o l ta g e l o c o m o t iv e s . T h a t
w a s t h e g e n e s is a n d th in k i n g b e h i n d 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s fo r t h e c o a l
20

e x p o r t l in e a n d I w i ll s h o w in t h is o n e t h a t I p r e p a r e d a c a s e f o r t h e s e
1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s .

Th a t it w a s u n i l a t e r a lly c h a n g e d b y Tr a n s n e t G r o u p

E x e c u t iv e s a n d / o r Fr e i g h t R a il ’s S u p p l y C h a i n S e r v ic e s to f a v o u r C S R .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o r r y a n d f o r t h e r e c o r d C S R is C h in a S o u t h
R a il ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C h in a S o u t h R a il .

Page 25 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
changes

and

i m p lic a ti o n s

were

Ye s .

Th e r e w a s a m a te r i a l – th e

material

and

I

submit

that

the

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e t o t h e B A D C C o m m i t t e e i n r e s p e c t o f th e
b u s i n e s s c a s e I p r e p a r e d a s i t h a d b e e n c h a n g e d w a s m is le a d i n g i n
c e r t a i n r e s p e c t s . I t i s a l s o m y c o n s id e r e d o p i n io n t h a t t h e c o n fi n e m e n t
t o C S R w a s fl a w e d in c o n c e p t a n d e x e c u t i o n a n d t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n ts
t o C S R b e f o r e th e fi r s t l o c o m o t iv e w a s d e l iv e r e d w e r e e x c e s s iv e . T h a t
is w h e r e I w i s h t o g o to .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. Th e n c a n y o u p r o v i d e u s th e s e q u e n c e
o f e v e n ts a s y o u s e t th e m o u t f r o m y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 6 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C e r t a i n l y,

thank

you.

The

s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s – a n d i f I c o u l d g o t h e r e t o 2 6 . I p r e p a r e d a f ir s t
b u s i n e s s c a s e i n A p r il 2 0 1 3 – a n d p le a s e t h a t is 2 0 1 2 w h i c h s h o u ld
r e a d 2 0 1 3 – f o r a d d i ti o n a l l o c o m o ti v e s f o r th e – f o r t h e c o a l l in e .
T h e s e w e r e t o b e d u a l v o l t a g e l o c o m o t iv e s a n d th e i n it i a l b u s i n e s s c a s e
t h a t I f ir s t p r e p a r e d i n A p r il w a s t h a t t h e y g o o u t o n o p e n t e n d e r. T h e r e
w e r e v a r i o u s i t e r a t i o n s o f t h is b u s i n e s s c a s e . It w e n t t h r o u g h c h a n g e s
fr o m b e i n g i n it i a l ly 1 0 0 , t h e n i t w a s u p to 1 6 0 w i th o p ti o n s t o 1 6 0 a n d
20

d o w n b u t t h e k e y e l e m e n t is o f th is is t h a t in S e p t e m b e r / O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 I
w a s r e q u e s te d t o u p d a t e th is b u s i n e s s c a s e f o r 1 0 0 1 9 E ty p e e q u iv a l e n t
e l e c tr ic l o c o m o tiv e s a n d 8 0 d i e s e l e x p o r t lo c o m o t iv e s f o r th e c o a l –
c o a l e x p o r t li n e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I f I m a y i n t e r j e c t th e r e .

The 100 19E type

e q u iv a l e n t e le c t r ic l o c o m o ti v e s a r e t h o s e w h a t w e c a l l th e 1 0 0 c o a l l in e

Page 26 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
lo c o m o t iv e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Th o s e a r e

th e

1 0 0 c o a l li n e

lo c o m o t iv e s y e s . T h e p h r a s e 1 9 E e q u iv a l e n t …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : H a s p a r ti c u la r i m p o r t a n c e b e c a u s e
it w a s t h e w a y o f s p e c i fy i n g t h a t i t w a s b o t h a d u a l v o l t a g e l o c o m o tiv e .
T h a t i t h a d a p a r tic u la r a x l e l o a d i n g a s w e h a v e s e e n o n t h e s li d e o f 2 6
t o n s p e r a x l e a n d t h a t i t h a d a p a r ti c u la r p o w e r r e q u ir e m e n t g iv e n th a t
it w a s t o b e u s e d f o r t h e c o a l li n e .
10

I t n e e d e d to b e a h i g h e r p o w e r

lo c o m o t iv e t h a n t h o s e w e h a d p r e v i o u s ly u s e d o n g e n e r a l fr e i g h t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d w h y d o w e u s e t h e 1 9 E ty p e ?

What do

w e m e a n b y 1 9 E t y p e ? Is i t r e fe r e n c e t o a s p e c if ic l o c o m o tiv e b e c a u s e
y o u a r e lo o k i n g f o r 1 0 0 1 9 E t y p e e q u iv a l e n t ?

Could you explain that

phrase?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C e r t a i n l y.

T h e – w e h a d 11 0

lo c o m o t iv e s o n t h e c o a l li n e o f a 1 9 E ty p e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e s o u g h t to h a v e e q u iv a l e n c y o f

t h a t t y p e w i th fu ll i n te r o p e r a b il it y w i t h t h o s e 11 0 l o c o m o t iv e s . 11 0 p l u s
20

t h e 1 0 0 w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t u s t o 2 1 0 l o c o m o ti v e s a s a c o a l li n e fl e e t
s t a n d a r d i s e d w a s t h e o p e r a t i o n a l v is io n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t w a s t h e a i m o f t h e b u s i n e s s p la n ? O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

S o t h is m e m o r a n d u m w a s o n a –

Page 27 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
dated

1 5 O c t o b e r.

o r g a n i s a t io n .

It

went

throu gh

v ir t u a lly

everybody

in

the

I t w a s s ig n e d b y Mr G a m a , b y t h e G r o u p S u p p ly C h a i n

O ff ic e r t h e n – G a r r y P it a – b y t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C a p i t a l I n t e g r a t io n
– M o h a m m e d M a h o m e d y a n d a ls o b y t h e n t h e G r o u p C h i e f F i n a n c i a l
O ff ic e r – A n o j S in g h – a n d t h i s is r e fe r e n c e d in A n n e x u r e 1 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f w e c o u l d t h e n ju s t q u ic k ly t u r n t o A n n e x u r e
1 b e c a u s e I th in k b e y o n d t h is p o in t y o u d e a l w i t h s p e c i f ic it e m s a r i s i n g
t h e r e fr o m . A n n e x u r e 1 C h a ir w o u ld s t a r t a t y o u r p a g e 7 0 o f B B 4 A .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

W e l l I w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e th i n g b e f o r e y o u s t a r t e d .

S o y o u w il l h a v e to r e p e a t w h a t y o u ju s t s a id .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I w i ll . I w il l.
CHAIRPERSON :

I t h in k i n t h e s u p p le m e n ta r y s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u w i ll

p r e p a r e ju s t m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g th a t g i v e s t h e f ir s t
n a m e s o f t h e p e r s o n t h a t t h e w it n e s s g i v e s i n p a r a g r a p h …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I n d e e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : 26.1 because it refers to Singh …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : J u s t t o S in g h .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d w e d o n o t k n o w - h e h a s n o w s a id i t is A n o j –

M r A n o j S i n g h a n d th e n th r e e w a s M a h o m e d y a n d I w a s w o n d e r in g
20

w h e t h e r i t w a s M r M o h a m m e d M a h o m e d y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It w a s .
CHAIRPERSON :

W h ic h h e h a s n o w c o n f ir m e d b u t I t h i n k h e is

m e n ti o n i n g t h e m fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o it is i m p o r ta n t th a t t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t

Page 28 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
c la r i fi e s w h o t h e y r e a lly a r e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I w i ll d e f in i te ly d o s o C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d i f t h e n f o r t h e r e c o r d i f i n r e la t io n t o

p a r a g r a p h 2 6 . 1 I m a y r e q u e s t M r C a l l a r d t o c o n fi r m th e f u ll n a m e s o f
t h e p e o p l e r e f e r r e d t h e r e to f o r p u r p o s e s o f h is t e s t i m o n y f o r t h e
r e m a in d e r o f t h e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

Yo u r e f e r i n y o u r f ir s t li n e to G a m a .

C o u ld

y o u p le a s e p r o v i d e h is fu ll n a m e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C e r t a i n ly.

It

was

M r Si y a b o n g a G a m a – C h i e f E x e c u tiv e Tr a n s n e t Fr e i g h t R a i l a t th e
ti m e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t t h e t h i r d l in e fr o m th e b o t to m o f 2 6 . 1 y o u
r e fe r t o G r o u p S u p p l y C h a i n O ffi c e r – P i t a . C o u l d y o u p r o v id e h i s f u l l
name?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C e r t a i n l y.

Garry Pita – Group

S u p p ly – G r o u p C h i e f S u p p l y C h a i n O ffic e r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

A n d to M a h o m e d y w h e r e w e e ff e c t e d a

c o r r e c t io n c o u l d y o u p r o v id e th e fu ll n a m e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

M o h a m m e d M o h a m e d y th e n G r o u p

G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C a p i t a l In t e g r a t i o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d a s t h e C h a ir p o i n te d o u t is t h a t t h e

p e r s o n w h o t e s ti f ie d y e s t e r d a y t h e c u r r e n t A c ti n g C E O o f Tr a n s n e t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is .

Page 29 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d l a s tl y y o u r e f e r to S i n g h ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ye s a n d t h a t w a s A n o j S i n g h t h e n

G r o u p C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ffi c e r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y a n d th e n y o u r e fe r to A n n e x u r e 1 w h i c h
is w h e r e I h a d r e q u e s te d t h a t w e g o t o a n d C h a ir t h a t i s a t p a g e 7 0 –
7 - 0 – a n d th e s e p e o p le y o u h a v e n a m e d y o u s t a t e a l l s i g n e d t h i s
memorandum?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I d o .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: And if we could turn to …
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O r I d i d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : To p a g e 9 4 o f t h a t A n n e x u r e A ? I t w i ll a p p e a r
to be a signature page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n . Yo u f ir s t s a i d l e t u s g o t o p a g e 7 0 ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : 7 - 0 th a t is w h e r e t h e d o c u m e n t s t a r ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e m e m o r a n d u m , o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t i s t h e m e m o r a n d u m .
CHAIRPERSON : And then we …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a g e 9 4 w h ic h is t h e …
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.

20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h e la s t p a g e o f th a t m e m o r a n d u m i s a

s ig n a tu r e p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h e s e a r e t h e s i g n a t u r e s o f t h e p e o p le

y o u m e n t io n a t 2 6 .1 s i g n e d t h is m e m o r a n d u m ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .

Page 30 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And the memorandum was then prepared for

s u b m is s io n t o w h o ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t w a s p r e p a r e d f o r s u b m i s s io n t o

t h e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d a n d A c q u is i ti o n s a n d D is p o s a ls C o m m i t t e e w h ic h w e
r e fe r t o a s B A D C – B - A - D - C .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B - A - D - C . Fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 7 …
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y.

T h e m e m o r a n d u m s ta r t i n g a t p a g e 7 0

w h ic h is t h e o n e w e h a v e j u s t b e e n to i s i t t h e m e m o r a n d u m r e fe r r e d t o
in p a r a g r a p h 2 6 . 1 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u r n a m e d o e s n o t a p p e a r a t th e e n d o f - o f t h e

d o c u m e n t a n d th a t is w h a t I w a n t t o – t o c la r i fy b e c a u s e i f i t w a s
p r e p a r e d b y y o u n o r m a l ly o n e w o u ld e x p e c t y o u r n a m e a t t h e e n d . Yo u
p r e p a r e d i t fo r th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e g o i n g to s ig n i t a n d th e n t h e y
s ig n e d i t b u t y o u – y o u p r e p a r e d th e m e m o r a n d u m .

T h a t is w h a t y o u

mean?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t – th a t i s c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

I n – in s o m e c a s e s o u r n a m e

a p p e a r s a t t h e b o t t o m b u t g e n e r a lly i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r o n t h e b a c k
p a g e . W e p r e p a r e it f o r s ig n a t u r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : By t h e r e l e v a n t o ffi c e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h is p a r ti c u la r o n e d o e s it a p p e a r a t th e b o t to m
o r s o m e th i n g ? I j u s t w a n t t o …

Page 31 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o – n o i t d o e s n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t w a n t t o – I w a n t e d t o b e a b le t o – t o u n d e r s ta n d
b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e o n e l o o k s a t i t a n d p a g e 7 0 . I t s a y s a m e m o r a n d u m
fr o m M r Br ia n M o le f e a n d – s o o k a y.

Yo u – y o u p r e p a r e d i t f o r – fo r

them?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ye s .

I w a s t h e a u t h o r o f t h is

memorandum.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Pr i m e a u t h o r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k s C h a ir.

If I can then pro bably add

a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n to t h a t . T h e p r o c e s s is y o u p r e p a r e d t h e d o c u m e n t ,
y o u s u b m it t o t h e r e l e v a n t s e n i o r p e o p le f o r c o n s i d e r a ti o n a n d i f in
a g r e e m e n t t h e r e w it h t h e y a p p e n d t h e ir s ig n a t u r e s .

W o u l d th a t b e a

c o r r e c t ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank

you

and

for

the

record

t h is

memorandum is dated 15 October 2013. So are we to understand that
the
20

three

–

the

fo u r

p e o p le

who

signed

–

Mr Gama,

Mr Pita,

M r M a h o m e d y, Mr S i n g h – te c h n i c a ll y w e r e m a k i n g t h is p r o p o s a l to th e
BADC?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: At paragraph 27 of your statement then you –
y o u s ta r t w i t h th e v a r io u s n i t ty - g r i t ty o f t h i s m e m o r a n d u m . C a n w e s t a r t
w i t h 2 7 a n d w e w il l c r o s s r e f e r t o t h e r e le v a n t p a g e s i n t h e

Page 32 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
m e m o r a n d u m a s a n d w h e n t h e n e e d a r is e s a n d t a k e t h e C h a ir s l o w ly
t h r o u g h t h e is s u e s t h a t y o u r a is e h e r e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C e r t a i n l y, t h a n k y o u .

The key

p o i n t s fr o m t h i s m e m o r a n d u m w e r e th a t i t n o w r e c o m m e n d e d t h e
c o n fi n e m e n t t o Mi t s u i & C o A f r ic a n R a il w a y S o lu t io n s – w h ic h w e a ls o
r e fe r to c o m m o n ly a s M A R S s o m e t i m e s M i ts u i . T h o s e n a m e s a r e u s e d
in t e r c h a n g e a b ly in v a r i o u s d o c u m e n t a ti o n – M A R S a n d M i ts u i – a n d th is
c o n fi n e m e n t w a s p r e d ic a t e d o n c o m p a t ib il it y w it h th e e x i s t i n g 11 0 1 9 E
ty p e l o c o m o tiv e s t h a t w e h a d o n t h e c o a l l i n e . Av a il a b i li ty o f c u r r e n t …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e a d 11 0 is t h a t b e c a u s e o f a c o r r e c t i o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h a t w a s o n e o f t h e c o r r e c ti o n s ,

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: (Intervenes).
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W e a l r e a d y h a d a fl e e t o f 11 0 a n d
w e w is h e d t o i n c r e a s e t h e s a m e f l e e t b y 1 0 0 .

F o r th a t o r w it h t h a t

t h e r e w e r e fa c i li ti e s a v a il a b l e f o r i m m e d i a t e p r o d u c ti o n w i t h o u t h a v i n g
t o e s t a b l is h n e w f a c i li t ie s .

Because it was a known locomoti ve and

c u r r e n tly i n u s e a n d i t w a s r e l a ti v e ly n e w l o c o m o ti v e s h a v i n g b e e n
20

p r o c u r e d o n ly a f e w y e a r s p r e v i o u s l y th e r e w a s n o n e e d to d e v e l o p a
s p e c i f ic a ti o n d e s ig n a n d t o g o th r o u g h a ty p e t e s t in g p r o c e s s b e f o r e
a p p r o v a l o f th e l o c o m o tiv e a n d p r o t o ty p e t e s t i n g .

I f I m a y m e n t io n

t h e r e th a t e le c t r ic l o c o m o t iv e s o r lo c o m o ti v e s f o r f r e ig h t r a il a r e n o t
b o u g h t o ff t h e s h e l f .

E l e c tr ic l o c o m o tiv e s p a r tic u la r ly a r e b e s p o k e

lo c o m o t iv e s . Th e y a r e d e s i g n e d s p e c i f ic a l ly f o r o u r g a u g e a n d t o o u r –

Page 33 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t o o u r r e q u i r e m e n ts a n d t h e y g o t h r o u g h a n e x t e n s iv e d e s ig n , d e s i g n
r e v ie w, d e s i g n s i g n o ff p h a s e .

Fr o m th a t t h e y t h e n g o t h r o u g h t h e

m a n u f a c t u r e o f th e f ir s t p r o to t y p e f o r a n e w t y p e . T h a t f ir s t p r o to t y p e
is t h e n p u t th r o u g h e x te n s iv e p e r f o r m a n c e t e s t s . O n ly th e n is a p p r o v a l
g iv e n t o p r o c e e d w i t h f u r t h e r m a n u f a c t u r e o f tw o o r t h r e e to m a k e s u r e
a l l t h e b u g s a r e ir o n e d o u t a n d o n l y t h e n is f u ll p r o d u c ti o n e ffe c t iv e l y
authorised.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Now …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

T h i s s a v in g i n d e s i g n ty p e t e s ti n g

a n d ty p e o f a p p r o v a l t a lk s t o th a t …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

And

it

a ls o

would

g iv e

us

c o n fi n e m e n t t o M A R S t h e f a s t e s t p o s s i b l e d e li v e r y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Can we – just so we understand.

Yo u

in d i c a t e d e a r l ie r t h a t t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n tr a i n s o r lo c o m o t iv e s t h a t w e r e
r e a c h i n g t h e e n d o f th e i r e c o n o m ic l if e …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d w h i c h w o u ld h a v e t o b e – h a d to b e

r e p l a c e d . Yo u j u s t n o w p o i n te d o u t t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t y o u – y o u
20

a lr e a d y h a d 11 0 n e w l o c o m o tiv e s in fl e e t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C a n y o u e x p la i n h o w m a n y y o u r e q u ir e d t o b e
r e tir e d ? W h e n w e r e t h e s e 11 0 a c q u ir e d w h e n y o u p r e p a r e d th is m e m o ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Tw o p a r ts to th a t q u e s ti o n a n d i f I
may …

Page 34 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

F o r th e m o m e n t c a n y o u r e c a l l w h e n th e s e

11 0 w e r e a c q u ir e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e 11 0 w e r e r e q u i r e d - t h e

s p e c i f ic d a t e s a r e t h e r e . I t w a s b e tw e e n 2 0 0 9 to a b o u t 2 0 11 . I t h i n k
t h e c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d i n 2 0 0 8 b u t p l e a s e …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t i s f in e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

That

is

subject

to

a b s o l u te

c o r r e c t io n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d j u s t – j u s t s o w e a r e c l e a r.
10

Th a t i s n o t

t h e lo t th a t w a s – t h a t w a s r e a c h in g th e e n d o f i t s e c o n o m i c l if e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o , n o . T h e l o t t h a t w e r e r e a c h i n g
t h e e n d o f th e e c o n o m ic li f e w e r e w h a t w e c a ll e d t h e 7 E S e r ie s – th e
7 E 1 , 7 E 2 a n d 7 E 3 S e r i e s – a c o m p l e t e ly d i ff e r e n t t y p e o f l o c o m o ti v e . A
D C o n ly lo c o m o tiv e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. Yo u – y o u d e a l w i th a – t h e n a tu r e o f
t h is 1 9 E t y p e l o c o m o tiv e a t p a g e 7 p a r a g r a p h 2 7 a n d t h e r e l e v a n c e o f
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ty p e o f l o c o m o ti v e t o th e c o a l d iv is io n …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I a m s o r r y. P a g e 7 p a r a g r a p h 2 9 ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Paragraph 29.

20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C a n w e – c a n y o u g iv e u s a n a p p r e c i a ti o n o f
t h is 1 9 E ty p e lo c o m o t iv e a n d i ts r e l e v a n c e t o t h e c o a l d iv i s i o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C e r t a i n l y.

By ( in t e r v e n e s ) a s a

1 9 E t y p e e q u i v a l e n t l o c o m o tiv e w e w e r e i n fa c t s p e c i f y i n g t h a t i t w o u l d
b e a l o c o m o tiv e o f a 2 6 t o n a x l e l o a d i n g .

Page 35 of 200

T h a t i t w o u l d h a v e o f th e

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
o r d e r o f a t l e a s t 3 11 k il o n e w t o n t r a c t o f e ffo r t a n d t h o s e a r e t h e t w o
m a in c h a r a c t e r i s t ic s w h ic h I h a d d e a l t w it h o n th is s li d e a n d i t w o u l d b e
d u a l v o l ta g e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w y o u c o n tr a s t th a t w i t h r e f e r e n c e to – t o

your Annexure 1 - at paragraph 63 of Annexure 1 to another type of
lo c o m o t iv e . Yo u c a ll t h is o n e a 2 0 E .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Can you give us an understand ing - and your
p a r a g r a p h 6 3 o f A n n e x u r e 1 w h e r e t h is is d e a l t w i th is a t p a g e 8 1 .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Thank you.

O k a y.

Just give me those references

a g a in .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I a p o l o g is e C h a i r.

M r C a ll a r d h a s e x p l a i n e d

t o u s t h e 1 9 E a n d i ts r e le v a n c e to t h e c o a l d i v i s i o n a n d t h e f a c t th a t i t
h a s to b e a 2 6 to n lo c o m o t iv e . In t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h h e th e n c o n tr a s t s
it w i t h a n o th e r ty p e o f lo c o m o t iv e w h ic h i s a 2 0 E .

T h e d e t a i l o f th a t

c o m p a r is o n is c o n t a i n e d i n A n n e x u r e 1 a t p a r a g r a p h 6 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n n e x u r e 1 is i n th e s a m e b u n d l e ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n n e x u r e 1 s t a r t s a t p a g e 7 0 a n d t h e s p e c i f ic
p a r a g r a p h w h e r e h e d o e s th is c o m p a r i s o n is a t p a g e 8 1 o f t h a t
20

d o c u m e n t a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 6 3 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M a y I … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u c o u l d t h e n e x p la i n to u s
t h e d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n t h e t w o a n d w h y i t is n e c e s s a r y t o d o t h is
c o m p a r is o n .

Page 36 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

C e r ta i n ly, m a y I s t a r t a t t h e

b o t t o m o f p a g e 8 0 p le a s e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s , e i g h t z e r o ?

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ei g h t z e r o , a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e

80.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

A t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 8 0 u n d e r

5 8 A ty p e w e d e s c r i b e d t h e r e e s s e n t i a l ly w h a t I s a i d e a r li e r th a t th e
1 9 E R 2 6 9 a x l e a n d th is s a y s w h y it w a s n o t p a r t o f th e 1 0 6 4 p r o c e s s ,
10

b e c a u s e t h e 1 0 6 4 p r o c e s s fo r g e n e r a l fr e ig h t l o c o m o ti v e s a r e 2 2 t o n s
per axle.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
one.

It a ls o s e ts o u t d e l iv e r y.

S e t ti n g o u t w h y i t’s a d i ff e r e n t

T h e n i f t h e a r g u m e n t is a c c e p t e d th a t

o n e n e e d s th e l o c o m o ti v e s w h a t b u s i n e s s c a s e is r e q u ir e d to d o w il l
s a y fi r s t i d e n ti fy a n d w e a g r e e o n th e n e e d , w e th e n h a v e t o a s s e s s t h e
v a r io u s p r o c u r e m e n t o p t i o n s , w h ic h i s w h a t p o in t 5 9 a t t h e b o t to m o f
p a g e 11 s e ts o u t t o d o , a n a l y s i s a n d i m p l ic a t i o n s o f p r o c u r e m e n t
o p t io n s , a n d s o w e r e a s o n t o f o u r, t h e fir s t w a s g o o u t o n te n d e r, w e
20

could do nothing.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W e c o u l d c o n f in e o r e x t e n d t h e

c o n tr a c t, w e e x p l o r e d t h e o p t i o n o f e x t e n d i n g th e c u r r e n t 2 1 E c o n t r a c t
f o r 9 5 C S R l o c o m o t iv e s , o r w e c o u l d l e a s e l o c o m o ti v e s , t h o s e w e r e t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t o p ti o n s w h i c h w e s e t o u t t o e x p lo r e .

Page 37 of 200

Paragraph 60 on

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
p a g e 8 1 s p e lls o u t t h e o p ti o n s o f g o in g o u t o n t e n d e r, b e c a u s e o f th e
ti m e a n d t h e u r g e n c y w h ic h t h e r e w a s a n d th e n e e d t o c a tc h u p o n th e
1 0 6 4 w e a r g u e d a g a i n s t g o in g o u t o n t e n d e r f o r t h is . T h e d o n o t h in g
o p t io n w e c o m e p a r t ic u l a r ly i f I m a y th e n t o 6 3 , p a r a g r a p h 6 3 w h e r e w e
e x p l o r e e x t e n d t h e c u r r e n t 2 0 E C o n tr a c t to 9 5 C S R l o c o m o t iv e s a n d
e x p l a i n a t l e n g t h , i n s o m e le n g th i n th is p a r a g r a p h w h y t h e 9 5 C S R
lo c o m o t iv e s w e r e n o t s u i t a b l e n o r w a s i t a p p r o p r i a t e to e x t e n d th e
c o n tr a c t o r c o n f in e th e i r c o n tr a c t t o C S R fo r t h e ir 9 5 l o c o m o ti v e s
b e c a u s e fo r t h e p r i m e r e a s o n i t w a s n o t a 2 2 t o n p e r a x le lo c o m o t iv e , i t
10

w a s n o t a h e a v y h a u l l o c o m o t iv e , it w a s n o t d e s i g n e d fo r t h e c o a l l in e ,
it w a s s p e c i fi e d fo r g e n e r a l fr e i g h t , i n s h o r t i t w a s n o t s u it a b l e f o r t h e
c o a l l i n e , t h e r e f o r e w e c a n ’ t m o v e i n t h a t d ir e c ti o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

So would my understanding then be correct

t h a t in s o f a r – a s m u c h a s w e h a d a m a n u f a c t u r e r s u p p l y i n g u s w i th 2 0 E
o r h a v i n g r e c e n t ly s u p p li e d u s w i t h 2 0 E it ’s n o t 2 0 E w e r e q u ir e d f o r
c o a l p u r p o s e s , i t ’s s p e c i fic a l ly 1 9 E t y p e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Correct.

T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y th e n p r o c e e d w i th t h e

a r g u m e n t y o u m a d e to – l e t m e s e e t h e a r g u m e n t a d v a n c e d i n th e
20

m e m o r a n d u m r e g a r d i n g th e b a s is f o r c o n fi n e m e n t w h ic h i s w h a t y o u
s e l e c t e d a n d i n d o i n g s o p e r h a p s it m i g h t b e a g o o d p l a c e to s t a r t a t
p a g e 8 2 w h e r e y o u g iv e a d e fi n i t io n o f c o n f in e m e n t a s a p p e a r s in th e
procurement procedures manual of 2012.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

C e r t a i n l y.

Ye s .

Page 38 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

B e c a u s e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )

S o r r y i f I m a y, b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e c o u l d y o u

ju s t b r ie f ly s t a t e w h a t a r e t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s fo r c o n f in e m e n t to b e
in v o lv e d in a c q u is i ti o n ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :
were

now

m o t iv a ti n g

fo r

In the business case where we

c o n fi n e m e n t

p r o - e l e c tr ic a l

m o to r s

this

c o n fi n e m e n t h a s t o b e i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s m a n u a l
o f w h i c h a n e x tr a c t i s s e t o u t u n d e r 6 7 o n p a g e 8 2 , t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
10

CHAIRPERSON :

I’ m j u s t th i n k i n g M s S e l lo t h a t w e h a v e h a d a fe w

w i t n e s s e s t e ll u s a b o u t w h a t th e r e q u i r e m e n t s f o r c o n f in e m e n t a n d
w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d n ’ t j u s t g o a h e a d a n d t h e n h e w il l t a l k a b o u t th e m
a n d w e w o u l d k n o w.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W e w o u l d b e h a p p y to b e c a u s e w e n e e d to

g o i n t o a b i t o f d e ta il o n t h e r e q u ir e m e n t f o r c o n fi n e m e n t , w h e n w e d e a l
w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e t h a t w a s e v e n t u a l ly s i g n e d o ff a n d w h e t h e r o r
n o t i t c o m p l i e d w i t h c o n fi n e m e n t , b u t i f t h a t e v i d e n c e h a s b e e n l e d
b e f o r e w e c a n p e r h a p s g o i n to t h e v a r i o u s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Ye s , I t h i n k a t l e a s t, n o l e s s th a n t w o Tr a n s n e t

w i t n e s s e s h a v e d e a l t w it h i t y o u k n o w.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t’s m o r e t h a n e n o u g h C h a ir.

J a , s o I k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t i t is a n d w h a t t h e

r e q u ir e m e n t s a r e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
CHAIRPERSON :

W e a r e h a p p y t h e n to g o t o th e n e x t p o i n t .

O b v i o u s l y i f t h e r e i s a s p e c i f ic r e q u ir e m e n t th a t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
n e e d s h ig h li g h t in g b e c a u s e o f w h a t h e w o u l d b e s a y i n g la t e r o n t h a t
c a n b e h i g h li g h te d b u t w e d o n ’ t n e e d t o s p e n d to o m u c h ti m e o n i t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u g iv e t h e s u m m a r y o f

t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e th a t is a d v a n c e d i n A n n e x u r e 1 a n d y o u s ta t e t h e r e
t h a t th e m e m o r a n d u m r e c o m m e n d e d c o n fi n e m e n t t o M t z e w e fo r t h e
a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e 1 9 E - t y p e l o c o m o t iv e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

C o u l d y o u t h e n t a k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h t h e

b a s is o n w h i c h y o u r e c o m m e n d e d c o n fi n e m e n t t o M t z e w e ?
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
b r i e fl y

there

was

(a)

the

u r g e n c y,

C e r t a in ly, I w o n ’ t d e a l w i t h ,
w h ic h

is

addressed

in

the

m e m o r a n d u m , t h e s u p p li e r s , li m i t e d n u m b e r o f s u p p l i e r s w e a d d r e s s e d ,
f o r r e a s o n s t o M t z e w e w e ta lk e d t o th e r e a s o n s a t s t a n d a r d i s a t io n a n d
c o m p a ti b i li ty w i t h t h e e x is ti n g g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s , c o n s i d e r i n g t h a t w e
a lr e a d y h a d 11 0 a n d w e w a n te d t o j u s t e x p a n d th e c u r r e n t fl e e t , s o w e
a r g u e d , th e m e m o r a n d u m a r g u e s t h a t C w a s f u l ly m e t . D w e s p o k e to
t h e p o i n t w h e r e t h e g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s a r e h i g h ly s p e c ia li s e d a n d l a r g e ly
id e n t ic a l to t h o s e p r e v i o u s l y e x e c u t e d a n d i t tic k e d a ll th o s e b o x e s .
O n e o f t h e th in g s w h ic h w e a r g u e d , i t a ls o g e ts i n t h e 9 5 , i s n o 9 5 l o c o
20

h a d b e e n d e l iv e r e d , i t m a y h a v e b e e n o n o r d e r b u t i t h a d n o t b e e n
d e li v e r e d s o it h a d n o t b e e n e x e c u t e d , i t d id n o t t ic k t h a t b o x , b u t f o r C
a n d D p l u s t h e s p e e d w i th w h ic h t h e y c o u l d b e p r o c u r e d w it h th e
f a c i li t ie s a lr e a d y b e in g a v a i la b l e i t h a d l e s s e n e d t h e u r g e n c y i f th a t’s
s u ffi c i e n t s u m m a r y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d s o t h e b a s i s fo r c o n f in i n g t o M t z e w e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w a s t h a t li s te d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 9 a t p a g e 8 3 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

Correct.

O f th e A n n e x u r e t o s a y t h e s e a r e t h e

g r o u n d s o n w h ic h w e b e l ie v e t h a t i n a d d r e s s in g t h e u r g e n c y w e a r e
a b l e t o d o s o th r o u g h c o n fi n i n g to M t z e w e .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

C o r r e c t , a n d t h e y s p e a k t o th e

e l e m e n ts e a r li e r b e c a u s e i t w a s a k n o w n l o c o m o ti v e , k n o w n t y p e , w e
d i d n o t h a v e t h e d e s ig n te s ti n g a n d p r o t o ty p i n g is s u e s , w e h a d b e e n
t h r o u g h t h e t e a s i n g p h a s e , t h e p r o d u c t io n li n e w a s a v a il a b l e i n p o i n t B ,
10

tr u e e n d d r i v e r s w e r e a lr e a d y t r a i n e d , t h e r e w a s n o n e e d t o c r o s s - tr a in
t h e m f o r a n n e w ty p e o f l o c o m o tiv e a n d w e a r g u e d t h a t c o n fi n e m e n t
w a s t h e q u ic k e s t d e liv e r y m a k i n g u s e o f e x is ti n g f a c il it i e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Do you know – you prepared the

m e m o r a n d u m , i t w a s s i g n e d a s y o u i n d ic a t e d , d o y o u k n o w w h a t
h a p p e n e d t o th is m e m o r a n d u m t h e r e a f t e r ?
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

Ye s i t w a s a t t h e B A D C m e e ti n g

it w a s w i th d r a w n b y M r M o l e f e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t w h a t m e e ti n g w a s i t w it h d r a w n b y h i m ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r C a ll a r d , M r C a l la r d !

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M m m . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )

Ye s ?

T h e C h a ir h a s g o t a q u e s ti o n f o r y o u .

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I w a s ju s t g e tt i n g t h e d a t e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e lo o k i n g f o r i t o k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I b e l ie v e t h e B A D C m e e t i n g w a s

Page 41 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
o n t h e – y e s o n t h e 2 1 s t o f O c t o b e r w a s t h e B A D C m e e t in g , a n d
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y I t h i n k th a t ’s th e w o r d I w a s lo o k i n g f o r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

B A D C i f I m a y C h a ir, i f t h e C h a ir h a s r e g a r d

t o p a r a g r a p h 3 2 I t h i n k i t’s h o w e m p l o y e e s a t Tr a n s n e t t e n d to d e a l w i t h
– i t ’s B A D C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s B A D C y e s , o k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s a n d t h e y i n s h o r t c a l l i t b y t h a t .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
10

T h e B o a r d A c q u is i ti o n s a n d

D e v e l o p m e n t C o u n c il m e e ti n g w a s h e ld o n t h e 2 1 s t o f O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h is m e m o r a n d u m h a v i n g b e e n

s ig n e d b e f o r e h a n d t h r o u g h a l l t h e s e p a r ti e s w a s r e a d y f o r p r e s e n ta t io n
t o t h a t m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

I w a s a t t h a t m e e t i n g r e a d y,

a c t u a ll y n o t to t a l k t o t h is m e m o r a n d u m b u t t o th e 1 0 6 4 L o c o m o t iv e s ,
M r G a m a w a s n o t a t t h e m e e t i n g , M r J iy a n e w a s g o i n g t o c o m e , I w a s
o n s t a n d b y.
20

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : I f I m a y j u s t i n t e r j e c t y o u s a y M r J iy a n e a n d
w h o n o w i s Mr J iy a n e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y, M r Th a m s a n q a J i y a n e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO : And he was?
MR

FRANCIS

QUENTIN

CALLARD:

Chief

Tr a n s n e t F r e i g h t R a il .

Page 42 of 200

Procurement

O ff ic e r,

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o a r e y o u s t a ti n g th a t h e w a s t o ta lk t o t h i s
memorandum?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I did not know at the time, I was

in f o r m e d o f t h a t l a t e r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Please proceed.

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Thank you.

I w a s th e r e w h e n I

r e c e i v e d a n s m s fr o m M r G a m a w h il e I w a s i n t h e m e e t in g h a ll a n d i t
s a i d t h a t M r M o le f e , M r B r i a n M o le f e , t h e n G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u tiv e o f
Tr a n s n e t L i m i te d , h a d w i t h d r a w n th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d I w a s to p o l i te ly
10

g e t o u t o f t h a t m e e t in g , th a t is , S A B S w a s d e t a i l e d in A n n e x u r e 2 .
CHAIRPERSON : But you said you were, as far as you understood you
w e r e a t t e n d i n g th e m e e t i n g i n o r d e r t o d e a l w i th a n o t h e r m e m o r a n d u m ,
n o t t h is o n e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h e s ms fr o m M r G a m a t o y o u w h i le y o u w e r e

w a i ti n g a t t h e v e n u e w a s to – w a s th a t th e m e m o r a n d u m t o w h ic h y o u
w e r e n o t g o in g t o b e t h e o n e t a lk i n g , w a s g o i n g – h a d b e e n w i th d r a w n
b u t h e t h e n s a i d y o u m u s t n o t a t te n d t h e m e e ti n g a n y m o r e , th a t ’s w h a t
you say he said?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th a t ’s w h a t h e s a i d , m a y I r e f e r t o
p a g e 9 6 , th e s m s m e s s a g e s ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A b s o lu t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is t h a t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Page 96.

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: 96.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

But your Annexure FC2.

W e lo c a t e d it

y e s t e r d a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
m o r n in g .

T h a n k y o u , it w a s a c o n f u s i n g

T h e s ms r e a d , a n d I ’ m r e a d in g f r o m t h e to p o f p a g e 9 6 ,

p l e a s e g e t o u t t h a t b o a r d r o o m , Ta m i is c o m in g to t a lk a b o u t 1 0 6 4
lo c o m o t iv e s , t h e 1 0 6 4 h a s b e e n w i t h d r a w n s o I ’ m n o t s u r e w h y y o u a r e
there.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C o r r e c ti o n , y o u s a i d 1 6 4 , i t ’s 1 6 0 .
10

MR FRANCIS QUEN TIN CALLARD:

The 160 has been withdrawn,

thank you, so I’m not sure why you are there.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o y o u t e s ti f ie d th a t y o u w e r e s c h e d u l e d t o

s p e a k o n th e 1 0 6 4 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I w a s o n s t a n d b y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Standby to do that?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I th o u g h t I w a s g o in g th e r e

b e li e v i n g I w a s o n s ta n d b y t o s p e a k t o t h e 1 0 6 4 .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : A n d th e n

th is m e m o r a n d u m o n t h e 1 0 0 w a s

a ls o t o s e r v e b e fo r e t h a t m e e ti n g e x c e p t M r J iy a n e w o u l d a s y o u s a y
20

s u b s e q u e n t ly u n d e r s t o o d t a lk t o i t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

My . . . ( in t e r v e n ti o n )

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u t h e n g e t a m e s s a g e p e r p a g e 9 6 fr o m M r
S iy a b o n g a G a m a in s tr u c ti n g y o u t o l e a v e t h e m e e t in g a n d i n f o r m in g y o u
t h a t Ta m i w i ll s p e a k to t h e 1 0 6 4 w h ic h is th e tr a n s a c t i o n y o u w e r e
going to speak to?

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u s a i d t h a t y o u r a tt e n d a n c e w a s o n t h e

b a s is t h a t y o u w e r e o n s t a n d b y, i s t h a t r i g h t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g to

p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h e m e e t in g i f s o m e b o d y e ls e d i d n o t p i tc h u p o r w h a t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It w a s a c o n f u s i n g m o r n i n g , I d i d n ’ t
k n o w w h e t h e r I s h o u ld h a v e b e e n th e r e o r s h o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n t h e r e .
I w a s n o t a b l e to a s c e r t a i n w h o w a s g o i n g o r w h o w a s n o t g o i n g to th e
10

m e e ti n g . I k n e w th a t b o t h o f t h e s e i t e m s w e r e o n th e a g e n d a , 1 0 6 4 a n d
f o r th is 1 6 0 E ’s i t a ls o r e fe r s to t h e 1 0 0 , t h e 1 6 0 1 0 0 ’s , s y n o n y m o u s f o r
a m o m e n t , s o I s a i d i f s o m e b o d y – l e t m e g o a n d b e o n s t a n d b y, e v e n i f
I’ m o u t th e d o o r i n c a s e s o m e b o d y c a ll s .
CHAIRPERSON :

When you say you were on standby you don’t mean

that somebody had asked you to go there on the basis of being on
s t a n d b y, i t w a s y o u r o w n d e c i s i o n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M y o w n d e c is io n to .
CHAIRPERSON: Just in case.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J u s t i n c a s e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m n e e d e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t , th a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d f o r fu t u r e r e fe r e n c e s o th a t w e d o n ’ t g e t
c o n fu s e d t h a t s m s y o u r e a d o u t s t a t e s t h a t t h e 1 6 0 h a s b e e n
w i t h d r a w n , w o u ld I b e c o r r e c t i n s a y i n g th a t t h e 1 0 0 – t h e 1 6 0 r e l a t e s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t o A n n e x u r e A w h i c h w a s t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e f o r 1 0 0 e le c tr ic l o c o m o ti v e s
p l u s 6 0 d ie s e l l o c o m o ti v e s , b r in g in g th e t o ta l t o 1 6 0 , a n d th a t i s i n th e
s u b j e c t l in e o f A n n e x u r e A i t s e l f.

Yo u r e c e iv e d t h is e m a i l a n d

p r e s u m a b ly y o u t h e n l e f t t h e m e e ti n g .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d I s e e th e r e ’s a . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON :

S o m a y b e t h e t o n e o f t h is s m s fr o m Mr S iy a b o n g a

G a m a t o y o u m a y b e m u s t b e u n d e r s t o o d i n t h e c o n te x t o f t h e fa c t t h a t
h e m i g h t n o t h a v e a s k e d y o u t o a t t e n d t h e m e e ti n g , a n d y o u m i g h t h a v e
10

m a d e y o u r o w n d e c is io n to a tt e n d a n d b e h e l p f u l i f n e c e s s a r y, a n d I’ m
ju s t t h i n k i n g w h e n y o u r e d i d th e to n e s o u n d s a l i t tl e s tr o n g , h e s a y s h e
d o e s n ’t k n o w w h y y o u a r e t h e r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I c o n f e s s I w a s a l s o s u r p r is e d b u t
t h is h a p p e n s i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n , a s I s a i d i t w a s c o n f u s i n g , I d i d n o t
k n o w w h o w a s fo r m a l ly a t t e n d in g a tt e n d i n g th e m e e ti n g , i t h a p p e n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

B u t I t h i n k th e C h a ir is a s k in g y o u a s li g h t ly

d i ff e r e n t q u e s ti o n w h i c h i f y o u a r e n o t p r e s e n t i n g a n y o f th e t w o o n
w h a t a u t h o r i ty w e r e y o u a t t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g , a t th a t m e e ti n g ?
20

Who

d e c i d e d y o u m a y a tt e n d t h e m e e ti n g a n d w h a t w a s y o u r p u r p o s e f o r
a tt e n d i n g t h a t o r a u t h o r is e d .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
m e t o g o t o t h e m e e t in g .

N o b o d y s a i d g o , n o b o d y d ir e c t e d

K n o w i n g th a t t h e m a t t e r s w e r e t o b e

p r e s e n t e d a t t h e B o a r d a n d t h a t s o m e b o d y n e e d e d t o ta lk t o t h e m a n d I
c o u l d n o t a s c e r ta i n w h o w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e r e a n d I tr i e d t o , I b e li e v e I

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
tr i e d t o c o n t a c t a ll t h e r e l e v a n t p e o p l e b e fo r e h a n d s o t h a t s o m e b o d y
c o u l d ta lk to m e i f n e e d b e , I s a i d I w il l g o a n d b e a v a i l a b le .
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t w a s t h e n o r m w h e n th e r e w a s t o b e a m e e t in g

t o b e a t t e n d e d i n t e r m s o f w h o a tt e n d s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

N o r m a lly i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n M r

Gama.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e w o u l d i n d ic a t e w h o is g o i n g t o a t t e n d ?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

Either he would or he would

d e l e g a t e a r e p r e s e n t a t iv e y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b u t o n t h is o c c a s i o n y o u h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a n y b u t
y o u t h o u g h t i n c a s e y o u w e r e , y o u c o u ld b e h e l p f u l .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s , a n d if I m a y s a y th a t ta lk s t o
h is p o i n t Ta m i r e a d i n g , M r T h a m s a n q a J iy a n e , is c o m in g t o t a l k a b o u t
t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o ti v e .
CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank you.

I see then at 96 onto page 97

t h e r e ’s a s e r ie s o f o th e r s m s ’s , a r e t h e y r e l e v a n t t o t h i s c o n v e r s a t i o n
20

a n d c a n y o u u n p a c k t h a t , w h a t tr a n s p i r e d a f te r y o u r e c e i v e d th is
message?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W e ll a f te r I r e c e i v e d t h e m e s s a g e I
le f t th e m e e ti n g , I s m s ’ d M r G a m a , t h e s e c o n d s ms t h e r e “ I ’ m o u t , w a s
called I thought for the 1064, was here in case you wanted me, they
h a v e m o v e d o n f r o m 1 0 6 4 , th e 1 0 0 is c o m i n g u p v e r y s o o n , p e r h a p s te n

Page 47 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
m i n u t e s ” , M r G a m a r e p l ie d a n d t h e ti m i n g o f th e s e e m a i ls , h e s e n t m e
t h e fi r s t e m a il a t 9 . 2 8 , I r e p li e d a t 9 . 3 6 , I w a s o u t t h e b o a r d r o o m , a t
9 .4 0 M r G a m a s m s ’d “ Br i a n h a s w i t h d r a w n t h e 1 6 0 , y o u c a n c o m e b a c k
t o th e o ffi c e ” , a n d b y t h a t t i m e 1 0 .1 0 I s m s ’ d M r G a m a t o s a y th a n k s
Ta m i i s h e r e . I s p o k e to M r J iy a n e a t th e m e e ti n g a n d w e n t b a c k to t h e
o ffic e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w t h e r e a r e f u r th e r s m s ’s a t th e b o t t o m o f
page

96

onto

97,

can

you

complete

th is

c o m m u n ic a ti o n ,

sms

c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r G a m a ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : S u r e , s o t h e n M r G a m a s m s ’d m e
a n d s a y s “ s o w h a t d i d y o u t a l k t o B A D C a b o u t , I’ m h e r e n o w a n d I
r e a l ly d o n ’ t l ik e c o n f u s io n .”
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d th is i s a d d r e s s e d to y o u ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h i s i s a d d r e s s e d t o m e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d I r e s p o n d e d t o Mr G a m a a n d
s a i d “ M o r n i n g , w h a t is t h e . . .” a n d I r e s p o n d e d t h e f o l lo w i n g d a y, o n t h e
2 2 n d . “ M o r n i n g , w h a t is t h e w a y f o r w a r d w i t h t h e 1 0 0 p l u s 6 0 is th e r e
a n y th in g w e c a n d o , r e s e a r c h o r r e w r i t e , a r e t h e r e i m p li c a t io n s f o r t h e

20

B o a r d a g e n d a f o r W e d n e s d a y, t h a n k s Fr a n c i s ” b e c a u s e n o r m a lly t h e s e
– i n o r d e r o f p r o to c o l i t w o u l d g o t h r o u g h t h e B o a r d a n d Ac q u i s i ti o n s
D e v e l o p m e n t C o u n c il a n d d e p e n d i n g o n t h e l e v e l o f a p p r o v a l i t w i ll t h e n
g o t o th e B o a r d , s o t h is w il l h a v e a n i m p li c a ti o n fo r t h e B o a r d A g e n d a ,
for the value.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u ’r e s u g g e s ti n g t h e r e w a s a n u p c o m i n g

Page 48 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
B o a r d m e e t in g o n t h a t W e d n e s d a y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : And what was the response thereto?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD : The response was, and I read the
la s t s m s t h e r e “ I b e l ie v e i t r e m a i n s w i th d r a w n . I a m n o w t r y i n g t o s e e
h o w w e c a n g e t l e a s e d l o c o m o t iv e s fr o m Q u e e n s la n d . G C E s a i d t o m e
if I n e e d a n y th in g i t m u s t b e l e s s t h a n a b i ll io n i f i t ’s c a p i ta l a n d f o r a
c o n fi n e m e n t i t m u s t b e w i th in h i s a u t h o r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

I s e e th a t y o u d o n ’ t s e e m to h a v e r e s p o n d e d to h is

q u e s t io n a b o u t w h a t d i d y o u t a lk to t h e A D C a b o u t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I d o b e li e v e t h a t I p h o n e d h i m o n
t h a t o n e , i t ’s n o t i n a n s ms .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

A n d m y r e c o ll e c t i o n is t h a t I

p h o n e d h i m t o s a y, e x p l a i n e d w h y I w a s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e n o n t h e q u e s t io n o f th e C h a ir y e s i t’s n o t
in t h e s m s ’s b u t j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d b e s i d e s b e i n g p r e s e n t a t t h e
m e e ti n g b e f o r e y o u g o t a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o l e a v e th e m e e t i n g h a d y o u
20

a d d r e s s e d t h e m e e t in g a t a ll , h a d y o u d o n e a n y t h i n g i n t h a t m e e ti n g y e t
a t t h a t p o i n t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o I d id n o t a d d r e s s t h e m e e t i n g .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y, s o t h e n y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d t h a t i t

r e m a in s w it h d r a w n th e 1 6 0 p r o p o s a l a n d th e th i n k i n g is p e r h a p s t o
le a s e th is fr o m Q u e e n s la n d , I t a k e i t A u s tr a l ia .

Page 49 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

L e a s e l o c o m o ti v e s , a lt e r n a tiv e

lo c o m o t iv e s fr o m Q u e e n s la n d , A u s t r a li a y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y, a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u

r e c e i v e d th a t r e s p o n s e fr o m M r G a m a ?
MR

FRANCIS

QUENTIN

C A L LA R D :

W e ll

th e

next

s i g n i fi c a n t

development was that I prepared a updated version of the business
c a s e o r a s l ig h tl y r e v i s e d v e r s i o n o f t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e w h i c h I
p r e s e n t e d fo r M r G a m a w h i c h h e s i g n e d o n th e 2 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 ,
s o th is w a s n o w a m o n t h l a t e r.
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And what led to your revision of that

business case, what was the cause of the revision?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h e i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d d ir e c ti o n s o n
w h a t to r e v is e w e r e n o r m a ll y t e le p h o n ic a t t h e t i m e , s o I c a n ’ t s t a te
s p e c i f ic a l ly i t w a s t h is p h o n e c a ll o r – i t c e r t a i n l y w a s n ’ t a n e m a i l , o r
t h is p h o n e c a l l o r s m s w h i c h s a i d o k a y s o t h a t o n e ’s b e e n w i t h d r a w n ,
p l e a s e p r e p a r e a n o t h e r o n e , g e t i t g o i n g a g a i n th a t w e c a n s u b m i t i t
a g a in th e n e x t t i m e a n d tr y o u r l u c k a g a i n is h o w I i n t e r p r e te d i t . Th a t
w a s m y i n te r p r e t a ti o n , p r e p a r e i t a g a i n , r e a d y f o r r e s u b m is s i o n in a
m o n th ’s t i m e , m a y b e w e h a v e b e t t e r lu c k . T h a t w a s m y i n t e r p r e ta t io n
20

o f i t a t th e ti m e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u h a v e a t t a c h e d th i s s u b m i t t e d , o r th is

r e v is e d v e r s i o n a s A n n e x u r e 3 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
d i ff e r e n c e

A n d th a t s t a r ts a t y o u r p a g e 9 9 . Is t h e r e a n y

between Annexure

1, which

Page 50 of 200

is

15 th of October

2013

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s u b m is s io n a n d th is r e v i s e d v e r s i o n , i s t h e r e a n y d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n
t h e t w o d o c u m e n t s , t h a t is k e y t h a t y o u w o u ld lik e t o b r in g t o t h e
C h a ir ’s a t te n ti o n , o r is i t th e s a m e d o c u m e n t n o w r e - d a te d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I n e s s e n c e t h e d o c u m e n ts a r e t h e
s a m e , th e y a r e b o t h f o r 1 0 0 C l a s s 1 9 E e q u iv a le n t d u a l v a n ta g e e le c tr i c
lo c o m o t iv e s a n d f o r 6 0 c l a s s 4 3 d ie s e l lo c o m o ti v e s p e r t h e h e a d i n g , b u t
t h e r e w e r e m i n o r c o r r e c ti o n s y e s b e c a u s e a t t h e b o t to m l e f t h a n d
c o r n e r th e fir s t o n e o n p a g e 7 0 i ts r e v is e d v e r s i o n 11 A , a n d t h e v e r s i o n
o n p a g e 9 9 i s v e r s io n 1 2 , s o I d id s o m e m i n o r c h a n g e s , I c a n ’ t s a y
10

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e y a r e n o t m a t e r ia l y o u d o n ’ t n e e d t o b o th e r t o .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o t m a te r i a l n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y o u d o n ’t n e e d to b o t h e r t o l is t th e m .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d n o w t h is o n e i s d a t e d t h e 2 5 t h o f

November 2013.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D : Ye s , i t w a s s i g n e d b y M r G a m a o n
t h e 2 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h a t is a t p a g e 1 2 3 , I s e e t h i s d o c u m e n t

w e h a v e u n li k e t h e fir s t v e r s i o n w a s s i g n e d o n ly b y M r G a m a a n d n o t b y
20

t h e r e s t o f t h e p e o p l e w h o s e n a m e s a p p e a r th e r e w h o i n t e n d e d t o s i g n
it , d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y i n fa c t d id s i g n t h is v e r s io n e v e n t u a l ly ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t ’s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i t w a s

n o t s i g n e d f u r t h e r, I h a v e n o r e c o r d o f it b e i n g s i g n e d fu r t h e r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o , a n d d o y o u k n o w t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d to

t h is v e r s io n t h a t y o u s u b m i t te d a s a n e x tr a t h r e e s ig n e d b y M r G a m a o n

Page 51 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
the 25th November 2013?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o t d e f in i tiv e ly, n o I k n o w i t w e n t
t o G r o u p , b u t I b e li e v e i t w e n t t o G r o u p b u t I c a n n o t s a y w h e r e i t g o t
s t o p p e d i n t h e p r o c e s s , o r w h e r e it s t o p p e d i n t h e p r o c e s s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

What do you mean Group? Whose Group?

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : G r o u p a s in Tr a n s n e t G r o u p H e a d
O ff ic e w h i c h w o u l d f o r w a r d , p r e p a r e d o c u m e n ts fo r B A D C a n d fo r
Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h e p e r s o n s f o r w h o m p r o v is io n
10

had been made for them to sign on that memorandum, do you know
w h e t h e r th e a b s e n c e o f t h e ir s i g n a t u r e s m a y h a v e b e e n b e c a u s e t h e y
didn’t agree or whether the memorandum wasn’t given to them or
a n y th in g , o r y o u ju s t d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I d o n ’ t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir. S o t h i s is n o w th e 2 5 t h o f

N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 , in s o f a r a s t h i s p r o p o s a l is c o n c e r n e d d o y o u h e a r
a n y th in g fr o m a n y o n e th e r e a f t e r, a f te r t h a t d a t e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o i t w a s q u ie t a n d o n e p r o c e e d e d
20

w i t h o th e r w o r k ti ll t h e n e x t e v e n t w a s r e a l ly t h e a f t e r n o o n o f Fr id a y th e
1 8 t h o f J a n u a r y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And what happened on that day?

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t h e n r e c e i v e d t h e f o l l o w in g s ms

fr o m Mr G a m a , a n d i f I m a y r e a d i t b e c a u s e I t h in k it s e ts o u t w h a t h a d
happened.

Page 52 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
“ H i Fr a n c is a n d J D ,
G r o u p h a s a s k e d th a t w e fi n d R 5 0 m i ll io n a d d i ti o n a l r e v e n u e f o r
n e x t y e a r.”
CHAIRPERSON :

I s t h a t o n e o f t h e c o r r e c ti o n s , i t s a y s R 5 0 0 h e r e ,

R 5 0 0 m il li o n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y R 5 0 0 m il li o n , s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R 5 0 0 m ill i o n o k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h e y a ls o w a n t u s t o a d d a

t h o u s a n d w a g o n s f o r C A P E C , t o T E , t h a t’s Tr a n s n e t E n g in e e r i n g , I
10

s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e n e e d 8 0 , n o t 6 0 C l a s s 4 3 d i e s e ls , t h e y ’r e a s k i n g t h a t
w e t a b l e a b u s i n e s s c a s e f o r 8 0 b u t i t n e e d s t o b e s i g n e d o ff b y te n
o ’c l o c k o n M o n d a y i n o r d e r f o r i t to b e o n B A D C p a c k fo r n e x t Fr i d a y ’s
m e e ti n g 2 4 J a n u a r y. W h a t m ir a c le c a n y o u w o r k f o r m e , S i a . W e ll . . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s e e m e d m u c h m o r e fr i e n d l ie r t h a n t h e s m s ’s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h e r e w a s n o o ff e n c e g iv e n a n d

n o n e t a k e n a t t h e ti m e , t h e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o t h e r e q u e s t i s to t a k e t h e s a m e p r o p o s a l

e x c e p t i n s te a d o f 6 0 d i e s e l y o u m u s t m a k e p r o v i s i o n f o r 8 0 d i e s e l ?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

A n d th is y o u m u s t h a v e c o m p le t e d b y

f o ll o w i n g M o n d a y h a v i n g r e c e iv e d t h e m e s s a g e o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Fr i d a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Fr id a y.

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .

Page 53 of 200

the

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r a B A D C m e e t i n g t h e

f o ll o w i n g Fr i d a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
MR

FRANCIS

Did you respond to this sms?

QUENTIN

C A L LA R D :

Well

before

I

responded

p e r s o n a l ly, my fi r s t t h i n g w a s I c o n t a c t e d a c o l le a g u e th a t w a s
P r a g e s s a n P il l a y, w h o w a s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r L o g i s tic s I n t e g r a t i o n , o f
t h is s m s . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

M a y I in t e r j e c t , P r a g e s s a n [ s p e lt ] P il l a y ?

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

F o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s , th a n k y o u .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Thank you.

He and I were

e x tr e m e l y c lo s e c o l le a g u e s a n d a l l o u r l o c o m o ti v e i n te r a c t io n s w e –
b e c a u s e h e w a s i n c h a r g e o f th e o p e r a t io n a l a s p e c ts o f l o c o m o t iv e s w e
w e r e w o r k in g v e r y c l o s e ly p a r tic u la r ly w h e n i t c a m e t o d e s i g n i n g h o w
lo c o m o t iv e s , a n d a l l o c a ti n g h o w l o c o m o tiv e s w o u l d b e u s e d a n d
o p e r a ti o n a l c a p a b i li ti e s a n d o p e r a ti o n a l d e p lo y m e n t , s o th e b u s i n e s s
c a s e h a d t o ti e i n w i t h w h a t h e w a n te d . S o I t o l d h i m a b o u t t h i s s m s
a n d a s I s a i d h e is r e s p o n s i b le fo r a ll th e o p e r a ti o n a l a s p e c ts o f t h e
20

lo c o m o t iv e

f le e t

and

we

had

this

p a r t ic u l a r ly

c lose

working

c o l l a b o r a ti o n . J D s e n t th e s m s t o G a m a a n d c o p i e d m e “ O n c e I h a d a
c h a t w it h Fr a n c i s w e w il l b e m e e ti n g t o m o r r o w t o g e t t h e c a s e o u t . W e
d o h a v e t o n s , w e w i ll b e t r a c k i n g a b o v e t h e b u d g e t f o r n e x t y e a r, th e y
a r e c o v e r e d b y r e s o u r c e s b u t n o t r e li a b l e a s w e w o u l d l ik e t o b e . T h e r e
is o p e r a ti o n a l d e t a i l h e r e o f a ls o P o lo k w a n a n e e d s th e 3 4 2 0 0 ’s to b e

Page 54 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
r e p l a c e d , t h a t ’s a d i e s e l l o c o m o tiv e , w e p l a n t o h o ld t h e m t o g e t h e r w i th
C o p p e x . . .” I’ m n o t s u r e I n e e d t h e m e s s a g e , b u t e ffe c t iv e l y w e w e r e i n
c o n ta c t , I b e l i e v e w e m e t o n t h e S a t u r d a y t o p u t t h is t o g e t h e r a n d t h e
u p s h o t o f t h is w a s th a t o n M o n d a y t h e 2 4 t h o f J a n u a r y I e m a i le d M r
G a m a a r e v is e d b u s i n e s s c a s e f o r 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s a n d 8 0 d i e s e ls
w h ic h is – t h a t w a s r e v is e d v e r s i o n 1 4 d a t e d t h e 2 0 t h o f J a n u a r y, a n d I
s e n t a w o r d v e r s io n t o Mr G a m a ’s PA , M r S i n g h ’s PA a n d o n Tu e s d a y I
s e n t a w o r d v e r s io n t o M r J i y a n e o f th e S u p p ly C h a i n O ff ic e r. S o i t w a s
d is t r i b u t e d f a i r ly w i d e l y.
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u w e r e a b l e t o w o r k th e m ir a c le t h a t M r
Gama was hoping you would be able to by Monday?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a w e g o t a b u s in e s s c a s e o u t.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y.

N o w w e a r e n o w a t s e q u e n ti a lly

v e r s i o n 3 w h ic h y o u h a v e a n n e x e d a s A n n e x u r e 5 a n d 5 A . I f w e c o u l d
go to version 2 – annexure 5A and that is at page 129.

T h e fir s t

d i ff e r e n c e w i th t h i s i f c o m p a r e d t o o u r v e r y fi r s t b e in g a n n e x u r e 1 is t h e
s u b j e c t t i tl e .

S o w h e r e a s a n n e x u r e 1 w a s m a k i n g p r o v i s i o n fo r 1 0 0

e l e c tr ic lo c o m o t iv e s a n d 6 0 d i e s e l t h i s o n e a d j u s t e d th e d i e s e l
r e q u ir e m e n t u p t o 8 0 .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO : May we accept that the body of the document
a n d t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s r e c o g n i s e s t h a t c h a n g e a n d t h a t c h a n g e i s g iv i n g
e ffe c t t o i n th e n u m b e r s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B e s i d e s th a t c h a n g e d id a n y t h i n g e ls e c h a n g e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
in FA 1 a s c o m p a r e d to A n n e x u r e A y o u r v e r y f ir s t b u s i n e s s c a s e ?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th e l o g ic o f th e b u s in e s s c a s e , t h e
la y o u t o f t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e a n d t h e e s s e n ti a l a r g u m e n t s r e m a i n e d a ll
the same.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I t is m y r e c o l le c t i o n t h a t o f c o u r s e
I a d j u s t e d v a r i o u s fi g u r e s a n d v a r i o u s t o n n a g e s r e l a te d t o th e c h a n g e
in l o c o m o t iv e s b u t i t w a s a n u p d a te o f p r e v io u s w o r k f o r tu n a te ly i t w a s
n o t a r e w r i te c o m p l e t e ly fr o m s c r a tc h .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d A n n e x u r e 5 A s ti ll a r g u e s f o r c o n fi n e m e n t
t o M i ts u i a t th is s t a g e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d 5 A s til l a r g u e s fo r c o n fi n e m e n t
t o M i ts u i o n th e s a m e b a s is a s w e h a d b e f o r e .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

As we have had along.

Yo u – y o u i n d ic a te

y o u d i s t r i b u t e d t h i s t o th e p e o p l e y o u m e n t io n in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 3 8 a n d
t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f te r ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o t i n t h e c a s e th e r e w a s v a r i o u s
e m a i ls b e t w e e n m y s e l f , Mr S i n g h a n d M r P i ta w h e r e I h a d e m a il e d
v e r s i o n s , p r e v io u s v e r s i o n s o f b u s in e s s c a s e s a n d c o r r e c te d s o m e
20

fi n a n c e – s o m e o f t h e ir fi n a n c i a l c a l c u la t i o n s w e f o u n d a n e r r o r in th e
w o r k I h a d d o n e o v e r th e w e e k e n d a n d t h a t w a s c o r r e c t e d . B u t t h e k e y
point was that on the morning of Wednesday t he 22 January I received
t h is – a n e m a il fr o m M s L i n d i w e M d l e t s h e a ls o fr o m S u p p ly C h a i n
S e r v ic e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : M a y I s p e ll th a t f o r t h e r e c o r d ? I t i s L – fir s t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
n a m e L in d i w e , s u r n a m e , M d le t s h e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d s h e r e q u e s te d my a s s is t a n c e
o n t h e f o r m a t ti n g m y m e m o r a n d u m t h e p r e v io u s M o n d a y t h e o n e w h ic h I
h a d d i s tr i b u t e d w i d e ly o n M o n d a y. W h e n I l o o k e d a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m
s h e s e n t m e I n o tic e d t h a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m h a d b e e n c h a n g e d
s ig n if ic a n tly to g iv e t h e e ffe c t t o c o n fi n e a n a w a r d t o C S R fo r 1 0 0
e l e c tr ic l o c o m o t iv e s a n d t h e c o n f in e m e n t t h a t I h a d t o M i ts u i w a s t o t a lly
10

removed.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u a tt a c h t h e s e d o c u m e n ts a s A n n e x u r e
7 . C o u l d w e t h e n g o t o A n n e x u r e 7 a n d A n n e x u r e 7 A s o th a t y o u c a n
w o r k u s t h r o u g h t h e s e d e t a i ls ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C e r t a i n ly.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o – s o y o u s a y in g y o u p r e p a r e d o r y o u – j a y o u

p r e p a r e d a m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h m a d e o u t a c a s e f o r th e c o n fi n e m e n t t o
M i ts u i .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M i ts u i c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

And you were now discovering that it had been

c h a n g e d s i g n i fic a n tly a n d th e m e m o r a n d u m w a s n o w m a k i n g o u t a c a s e
f o r c o n f in e m e n t t o C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : Yo u r A n n e x u r e 7 s ta r t s a t p a g e 1 5 8 a n d t h e n
it is t h e r e a f t e r f o ll o w e d b y 7 A . A t 1 5 8 is t h a t t h e e m a i l y o u r e f e r r e d t o
fr o m M s M d l e ts h e ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h a t i s t h e e m a il I r e c e iv e d f r o m

M s M d l e ts h e . M a y I p o i n t o u t t h a t w h il e t h e e m a i l r e a d s : p l e a s e s e e
s li d e e v a l u a ti o n m e t h o d o l o g y t h a t n e e d s t o b e i n c o r p o r a t e d i n t o t h e
w o r d d o c u m e n ts i f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t h r o u g h p l e a s e to t h e a t ta c h m e n ts ?
T h e r e a r e t w o a t t a c h m e n ts w h ic h s h e s e n t m e .

And this was the

d o c u m e n t I w a s p u t i t i n t o [i n d is t in c t] 1 8 0 r e v is e d v e r s i o n 1 5 1 2 0
10

G P d o c e x t h a t i s t h e m e m o r a n d u m a t ta c h e d a s A n n e x u r e 7 A a n d t h e n
t h e r e w a s t h e s l i d e t h a t I w a s t o a d d i n to t h e d o c u m e n t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o y o u r e c e iv e d t w o d o c u m e n t s fr o m M s

M d le t s h e t h e s l i d e o n t h e o n e h a n d i t is o n e a t ta c h m e n t a n d y o u
r e c e i v e d t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e m a r k e d 7 A w h ic h i s a r e v is e d
version of what you had provided – the m emorandum you had provided
t o M r S in g h , Mr G a m a a n d M r P i t a ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Tw o d a y s p r e v i o u s ly ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y.

Yo u t h e n r e c e i v e t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d

w h a t d o y o u d o w i t h i t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I p u t t h e s li d e i n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I f o r m a t i t – f o r m a t te d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e b e f o r e d e a l i n g w i t h w h a t y o u d i d w it h i t . I n

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t e r m s o f t h e s i g n i f ic a n t c h a n g e s t h a t y o u s a y w e r e t h e r e m a y b e i f y o u
c a n i d e n ti f y t h o s e f ir s t ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f I m a y s u g g e s t C h a ir a c tu a lly M r C a ll a r d h a s
d o n e t h a t . T h e y a r e f a ir ly s i g n i fi c a n t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t i s A n n e x u r e 8 w h i c h is u p c o m i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h e r e h e is g o i n g to ta k e u s t o t h e – th e

c h a n g e s m a d e t o h is o r i g in a l d o c u m e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o b a s ic a lly w h a t h e d o e s h e t a k e s h is

o r i g in a l d o c u m e n t a n d h e s h o w s w h e r e t h e r e h a v e b e e n d e l e ti o n s a n d
changes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d h e m a k e s a d ir e c t c o m p a r is o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a t e x e r c i s e I b e li e v e is – is b e t t e r

a p p r e c ia t e d t h r o u g h A n n e x u r e 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h i c h i s t h e n e x t s l i d e th a t w e a r e g o i n g t o

d e a l w it h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h o u ld w e n o t h a v e t h a t b e fo r e w e h e a r w h a t h e
d i d w i th t h e d o c u m e n t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

May I say?

e x a c tl y w h a t M s M d le ts h e a s k e d m e .

Page 59 of 200

The essence – I did

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I t o o k t h e d o c u m e n t , p u t i t in t h e
s li d e
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLA RD:

A ls o to o k t h e s li d e p u t i t i n t h e

d o c u m e n t , fo r m a tt e d i t c o r r e c tl y, a n d s e n t i t b a c k t o h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON :
10

O k a y n o I t h o u g h t t h e q u e s t io n w a s m e a n t to

[i n d is t in c t] a s o p p o s e d t o w h a t y o u d i d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I m a y h a v e mi s u n d e r s to o d th e q u e s ti o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h e s u m a ffe c t is t h a t th e y r e q u e s t e d b e in g

p l e a s e a d d t h i s s l id e t o t h e b o d y o f t h e d o c u m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d M r C a ll a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u ju s t d id it .
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t i s e x a c t ly w h a t h e d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t is f in e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : It is in the course of doing so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t ly t h a t y o u r e a l is e d
t h a t th is is n o t th e s a m e d o c u m e n t .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : T h a t I h a v e s e n t o u t to in t e r a li a M s M d l e t s h e
herself.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o , n o t h a t is fi n e . S o l e t u s – l e t u s g o a h e a d
then.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

T h e n w h ic h t h e n le a d s u s t o y o u r p a r a g r a p h

4 0 a n d y o u t a lk a b o u t a c o m p a r i s o n b e t w e e n I w i ll c a l l i t y o u r v e r s i o n
a n d th e v e r s io n r e c e i v e d fr o m M s M d l e t s h e a n d y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d t h is
as Annexure 8?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d A n n e x u r e 8 C h a ir w il l s t a r t a t y o u r p a g e
186.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : Yo u l is t a n u m b e r o f c h a n g e s u n d e r p a r a g r a p h
4 0 g o i n g o n t o p a r a g r a p h 4 1 . L e t u s ta k e t h e m a s t e p a t a t i m e a n d i f
y o u c a n r e fe r t h e C h a ir to t h e s p e c if ic p l a c e s w h e r e th e s e c h a n g e s
o c c u r o r th e k e y o n e s a t l e a s t.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W e ll t h e k e y c h a n g e s w e r e 4 0 . 1

r e fe r e n c e s to 1 9 E e q u iv a le n t h a d b e e n r e m o v e d t h r o u g h o u t t h e
20

d o c u m e n t . I f o n e w e r e t o t u r n to p a g e 1 8 7 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Fir s t e x a m p l e o f th a t i s I t e m 1 B t o
a p p r o v e t h e i n v e s t m e n t in a n d p r o c u r e m e n t o f 1 0 0 a n d w h e r e w e h a d
C l a s s 1 9 E e q u iv a l e n t e l e c tr i c lo c o m o t iv e s th e C l a s s 1 9 E e q u iv a le n t
has been removed.

T h a t is I b e li e v e c o n s i s te n t th r o u g h o u t t h e

Page 61 of 200

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document.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o t h e e ff e c t o f t h a t a m e n d m e n t is t o r e n d e r
1B whereas 1B sought an approval for the procurement of 100 Class 19
E e l e c tr ic lo c o m o t iv e s t h a t e ffe c t – t h e c h a n g e r e s u l t s i n th e a p p r o v a l
s o u g h t b e in g fo r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f 1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s s i m p ly ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :
consequence
10

of

that

or

the

T h e – m a y I a d d t h a t th e

i m p li c a t io n s

of

th a t

is

th a t

the

c h a r a c te r is t ic s o f t h e l o c o m o ti v e , t h e d e s i r e d l o c o m o ti v e o f t h e 1 9 E o f
it s 2 6 t o n n e s p e r a x i l a n d t h e p o w e r e q u i v a l e n c y o f a 1 9 E l o c o m o t iv e
had been taken out of the business case.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d y o u s t a t e t h a t th r o u g h o u t t h e d o c u m e n t

r e fe r e n c e to C l a s s 1 9 E e q u iv a l e n t is ta k e n o u t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h e – I c a n n o t r e c a ll a p l a c e

w h e r e i t i s l e ft in t h e d o c u m e n t.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s [ i n d is ti n c t ] w h a t is t h e n e x t s i g n i fi c a n t

change?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

4 0 . 2 t h e m o t iv a ti o n t o c o n fi n e t o

M a r s h a d b e e n r e m o v e d a n d r e p l a c e d w i t h c o n fi n e m e n t to S C R . Th a t
appears on page 200.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W o u l d i t p e r h a p s M r C a l la r d i f w e s ta r t a t

p a g e 1 8 8 w h i c h is th e fi r s t p la c e w h e r e t h i s c h a n g e o c c u r s . 1 8 8 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M y a p o l o g i e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Paragraph 5.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : 1 8 0 – 1 8 0 – y e s 1 8 8 . F ir s t p l a c e
occurs.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s . 1 8 8 p a r a g r a p h 5 a n d h e r e i t
r e a d s – n o w r e a d s th a t t h e s u b m is s i o n p r o p o s e s a n a c c e l e r a te d
p r o c u r e m e n t to m i ti g a t e G e n e r a l Fr e i g h t M D S v o lu m e s a t r i s k a b o v e
c o n fi n i n g 1 0 0 e l e c tr ic l o c o m o t iv e s t o C S R , C h i n a S o u t h R a i l E
L o c o m o t iv e

S u p p ly

and

the

b a la n c e .

That

now

changes

th e

c o n fi n e m e n t s i g - c h a n g e s t h e c o n fi n e m e n t . W e c a n s e e th e c h a n g e s in
10

t h e tr a c k c h a n g e s i n th e d o c u m e n t . T h is i s n o w c o n f i n e m e n t t o M a r s i s
n o w c o n s is t e n t t h r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n t . Th e m o ti v a t io n f o r c o n fi n e m e n t
t o M i ts u i h a s b e e n r e m o v e d a n d b e e n r e p la c e d b y c o n fi n e d m o t iv a t i o n
t o c o n fi n e t o C h i n a S o u t h R a i l .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B e fo r e w e d e a l w i t h t h e n e x t c h a n g e I w o u ld
lik e t o t a k e y o u b a c k t o 1 8 7 w h i c h i s s o m e th in g y o u d o n o t h i g h li g h t i n
y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r u n d e r p u r p o s e p a r a g r a p h 1 F, F f o r
Fr e d d y
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

20

The original document appeared to have

p r o p o s e d th a t o n c e t h e c o n t r a c t s a r e n e g o ti a te d t o i n fo r m t h e b o a r d o f
t h e f in a l p r ic e , c o s t a n d t h e t h e n 1 G s u g g e s t e d th a t th e G C E b e
d e l e g a t e d t h e p o w e r t o s ig n .

In s o f a r a s F is c o n c e r n e d th a t

r e q u ir e m e n t to i n fo r m t h e b o a r d o f th e f in a l p r i c e a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n
taken out?
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

Correct that has been taken out

Page 63 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a n d t h e – it is m y i n t e r p r e t a ti o n t h a t th e a d d i ti o n u n d e r w h a t i s n o w w a s
G n o w F t h e p o w e r b e d e l e g a t e d to t h e G C E a w a r d in c l u d i n g p r o c e s s
a n d a p p r o v a l t a k e s u s e v e n f u r th e r, t h e i n – [ i n d is ti n c t ] p o w e r s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o t h e n if …
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t – w h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f in c l u d i n g

p r o c e s s a p p r o v a l is – d o e s th a t m e a n t h a t w h a t w a s i n te n d e d w it h t h i s
a m e n d m e n t w a s t h a t th e G C E w o u ld b e t h e o n e t o d e c i d e o n w h a t
p r o c e s s s h o u l d b e fo ll o w e d to g e t a p p r o v a l ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : B e c a u s e I d id n o t a d d th o s e w o r d s
10

I d o n o t w a n t to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I m p u t e t o th e a u t h o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W h a t h e e x a c t ly m e a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W h a t I w a s g iv in g th e r e w a s m y

in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h e w o r d s f o r p r o c e s s a p p r o v a l w a s t h a t a n e x te n d e d
p r o c e s s a p p r o v a l c o u ld b e a r g u e d to g o r i g h t u p t o a w a r d .
CHAIRPERSON : YEs.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Aw a r d th e b u s i n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

I t i s a n i n te r p r e t a ti o n o f th o s e

words.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja.

Okay

no,

no,

I

in t e r p r e t a ti o n b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y w a s q u i t e …

Page 64 of 200

just

w a n te d

your

own

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B u t I c a n n o t i m p u t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W h a t t h e a u th o r m e a n t b u t t h a t is
m y i n te r p r e t a t i o n o f t h e w o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. It h a s b e e n b r o u g h t t o m y
a tt e n ti o n t h a t i t is ti m e f o r y o u r t e a C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e
at half past eleven.
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON : We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : A l l R is e .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t u s p r o c e e d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

y o u r p a g e 9 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t .

Mr C a l la r d w e a r e s t il l a t

W e h a v e d e a l t w i t h 4 0 .1 , 4 0 . 2 a n d –

a n d t h e c h a n g e s t h a t w e r e e ff e c t e d a t p a g e 1 8 7 r e l a ti n g t o t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t f o r a p p r o v a l b y t h e B o a r d .
20

We now move onto your 40.3

a n d w e d e a l w i th t h e c h a n g e e ffe c t e d th e r e w h e n y o u a r e r e a d y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Thank you.

Under 40.3 what had

a ls o b e e n r e m o v e d w a s t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e s t a n d a r d is a ti o n s o f t h e
lo c o m o t iv e s a n d fo r t h a t i f w e c o u l d p le a s e r e fe r t o p a g e 2 - 0 – 2 0 0 …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d 2 0 1 .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. S t a r t in g a t 2 0 0 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C o r r e c ti o n .

Let us go to 201

please.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

On

s t a n d a r d i s a t io n .

201

paragraph D where we have – what has been taken out was that the
s t a n d a r d i s a t io n h a s tw o e l e m e n ts - o p e r a ti o n a l s t a n d a r d is a ti o n a n d
m a in t e n a n c e s ta n d a r d is a ti o n . W e w il l s e e t h a t w h o l e s e c t i o n h a s b e e n
d e l e t e d a n d i t h a s b e e n r e p l a c e d w i t h w o r d in g to t h e e ff e c t t h a t:
10

“ C S R h a s b e e n a d j u d ic a te d a s b e i n g th e b e s t b i d d e r
d u r i n g t h e 9 5 e le c tr i c l o c o m o tiv e p r o c e s s .”
W e r e c a l l n o w t h a t t h e 9 5 e l e c tr ic l o c o m o tiv e s w h ic h w e r e th e n c l a s s
2 0 E w e r e g e n e r a l fr e ig h t l o c o m o ti v e s . B o t h t h e s e te n d e r s n o w in c l u d e
B o a r d a p p r o v e d m e t h o d o l o g y.
“ Tr a n s n e t h a s s p e n t a h u g e – l a r g e a m o u n t o f t i m e
human

c a p i ta l

money

in

th e

recent

tenders.

P r o d u c ti o n o f th e M A R S … ”
A n d I a m r e a d i n g fr o m R o m a n n u m e r a ls II .
“ Pr o d u c ti o n o f t h e c u r r e n t M A R S c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n
20

c o m p le t e d a n d w a s b a s e d o n p r e v i o u s p r o c u r e m e n t
m e t h o d o l o g y w h e r e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t is n o t a
k e y fo c u s a r e a a n d t h e M i ts u i C o n s o r ti u m d i d n o t
f a r e w e ll in t h e t w o m o s t r e c e n t t e n d e r s i s s u e d b y
Tr a n s n e t. ”
T h a t w o u ld b e t h e 1 0 6 4 in c l u d i n g .

Page 66 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
“Therefore

a

c o n ti n u a t io n

with

M i ts u i

via

c o n fi n e m e n t w o u l d p o s e u n n e c e s s a r y r i s k t o t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n .”
E ff e c t iv e ly n o n e o f t h i s a d d r e s s e s t h e k e y p o in t th a t w a s m a d e o u t o f
s t a n d a r d i s a t io n a n d i n t e r o p e r a b il i ty a n d t h a t h a s b e e n r e p l a c e d w i t h –
m a y I p u t it – e x tr a n e o u s m a t e r i a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l o n c e w h o e v e r i t is w h o m a d e t h e d e c is io n t o s a y
it s h o u l d n o lo n g e r – th e m e m o r a n d u m s h o u l d n o l o n g e r b e t a lk i n g
a b o u t M A R S b u t C S R o n c e t h e y h a d m a d e t h a t c h a n g e w o u l d i t b e tr u e
10

t h a t th e s t a n d a r d is a ti o n t h a t g i v e n th e c o n tr a c t t o M A R S w o u l d b e n e fi t
t h a t Tr a n s n e t w o u l d g a i n i n te r ms o f s ta n d a r d i s a t io n w o u ld n o lo n g e r
a p p ly o n c e i t w a s C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e b e n e fi t o f s t a n d a r d is a t i o n

w o u ld b e n e g a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d b e n e g a te d , j a .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t p a r t h a d t o g o b u t o f c o u r s e y o u s ti ll h a v e t h e
20

q u e s t io n o f t h e m o t iv a ti o n w h y t h e y c h a n g e d fr o m M A R S t o C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b e c a u s e th e n t h e y w o u l d n e e d t o a d d r e s s t h e

q u e s t io n o f h o w – w h a t a b o u t th e b e n e f it th a t Tr a n s n e t w o u ld h a v e
g a i n e d b y g iv i n g t h e c o n tr a c t t o – t o M A R S w h i c h is w h a t y o u r o r i g i n a l
memorandum was – was about?

Page 67 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d p e r h a p s ju s t t o c o n c l u d e o n t h a t p o in t if
y o u g o a p a g e b a c k a t 2 0 0 t h is w o u l d h a v e s t a r t e d a t th e b o tt o m o f
page 199.

I t is a q u o t a ti o n f r o m t h e P r o c u r e m e n t P o l ic y r e g a r d i n g

r e q u ir e m e n t s t o b e m e t f o r c o n f in e m e n t t o b e i n v o k e d a n d a t 2 0 0 u n d e r
C it states that:
“ F o r r e a s o n s o f s t a n d a r d is a ti o n o r c o m p a ti b i li ty w it h
e x i s ti n g r u l e s a n d s e r v ic e s a c a s e m u s t b e m a d e
10

t h a t d e v i a ti o n fr o m e x is ti n g s t a n d a r d i s e d g o o d s o r
s e r v ic e s w il l c o s t m a j o r o p e r a t io n a l d is r u p ti o n .

If

n o t c o n fi n e m e n ts b a s e d o n s t a n d a r d is a t i o n w il l n o t
b e c o n s id e r e d .”
Yo u s e e t h a t p a r t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w m y q u e s t io n t o y o u i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I d o n o t s e e i t. I a m tr y i n g t o fo ll o w y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O h , I a p o l o g is e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : On page 200?
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t p a g e 2 0 0 a t t h e t o p i n b o ld …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , w h e r e it s a y s fo r r e a s o n s , o k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Where it says for reasons under C.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t i s a c o n t i n u a ti o n fr o m 1 9 9 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e r e q u ir e m e n t s fo r c o n fi n e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n fi n e m e n t , j a .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: And now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e a s p e c t t h a t M r C a l l a r d h a s j u s t d e a l t w it h .
Is i t y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t in s e e k i n g t o c o n fi n e th e a c q u i s i ti o n t o M A R S
y o u a r g u e d t h a t c o a l l i n e o r t h e c o a l d iv is i o n h a d – w a s a l r e a d y o w n i n g
a n d o p e r a ti n g 1 9 E l o c o m o tiv e s a n d th a t t h e s e w o u l d b e c o m p a t ib le w i t h
w h a t y o u a lr e a d y h a v e ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

That is correct.

T h e f le e t o f

lo c o m o t iv e s o n t h e c o a l li n e c o m p r is e d 7 E lo c o m o t iv e s a n d s e r i e s . 11 E
lo c o m o t iv e s A C o n ly a n d t h o s e w e r e q u i te o l d a n d t h e b u lk o f t h e c o a l
li n e f l e e t t h e m a j o r e le m e n t w a s t h e r e c e n tly a c q u ir e d 11 0 1 9 E
lo c o m o t iv e s .

T h e c o n f in e m e n t t o M A R S f o r t h e a d d i ti o n a l 1 0 0

lo c o m o t iv e s fu ll y m e t t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f C w h e r e f o r r e a s o n s o f
s t a n d a r d i s a t io n a n d c o m p a ti b il it y w i th e x is ti n g g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s . T h a t
b o x w a s fir m l y t ic k e d .

W e m a d e t h e c a s e w h y w e d id n o t w a n t to

d e v i a te fr o m t h a t b e c a u s e o f b o t h s p a r e s h o l d i n g a n d a m a i n te n a n c e
h o l d i n g a n d w e a l s o m e n ti o n e d a d r iv e r tr a i n i n g p lu s o t h e r f a c t o r s a n d
20

that.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A t t h a t – a t th a t t i m e d i d t h e c o a l d iv i s i o n

h a v e w i t h i n i t s f le e t a n y l o c o m o tiv e m a n u f a c t u r e d b y C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

No.

At

the

time

that

t h is

m e m o r a n d u m w a s c h a n g e d - t h i s i s n o w in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 – Tr a n s n e t
Fr e i g h t R a i l h a d n o t t a k e n d e l iv e r y o f a s in g le lo c o m o t iv e fr o m C S R .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
T h e c o n t r a c t fo r t h e 9 5 l o c o m o ti v e s h a d p r e v i o u s ly b e e n a w a r d e d t o
C S R . A l o c o m o tiv e h a d b e e n d e li v e r e d i n to th e c o u n tr y m a n u fa c t u r e d
fr o m C h i n a – i f m y m e m o r y s e r v i c e s m e c o r r e c t ly. Th is w a s r o u n d a b o u t
N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 . I g iv e o r t a k e th e e x a c t d a t e . T h e r e w a s a c e r e m o n y
a r o u n d t h a t a n d t h a t l o c o m o ti v e w a s c u r r e n tly u n d e r g o i n g p r o to t y p e a n d
p e r f o r m a n c e t e s ti n g o n t h e fr e ig h t r a i l n e t w o r k . It h a d n o t b e e n t a k e n
in t o s e r v ic e .
“ We h a d n o e ff e c ti v e ly g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s … ”
A n d I a m q u o t in g h e r e fr o m p o i n t D .
10

“ We h a d n o g o o d s o r s e r v i c e s r e a d in g lo c o m o t iv e s
p r e v i o u s ly e x e c u t e d b y t h e s u p p li e r in s e r v ic e a t
t h e ti m e t h i s m e m o r a n d u m w a s c h a n g e d .”
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o g o i n g b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n I a s k e d w h e n y o u w e r e
d e a li n g w i t h t h e r e m o v a l o r d e l e t i o n o f t h e s ta n d a r d is a ti o n p a r t o f y o u r
memorandum …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d i ts r e p l a c e m e n t b y w h a t w e h a v e l o o k e d a t i n

t e r m s o f C S R - s o s ta n d a r d is a ti o n a p a r t f r o m – a p a r t fr o m w h a te v e r
b e n e fi t Tr a n s n e t w o u ld g e t b y g i v i n g t h e c o n tr a c t to M A R S b u t a p a r t
20

fr o m t h a t s t a n d a r d is a ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n o r w a s o n e o f th e g r o u n d s
t h a t w o u ld ju s t i fy c o n f i n e m e n t . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C e r t a i n ly M r C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

If I m a y u s e a – p e r h a p s a n

a u t o m o ti v e e x a m p le …

Page 70 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

A n d m a y I m e n t io n tr a d e n a m e s

ju s t f o r – f o r s a k e o f t h e a r g u m e n t . I o w n a d e l iv e r y s e r v i c e a n d I h a v e
a 1 0 0 To y o ta tr u c k s – o n e t o n tr u c k s . I h a v e a m a i n te n a n c e f a c i li ty s e t
u p fo r t h o s e o n e t o n tr u c k s . I k e e p a s t o c k o f s p a r e s f o r t h o s e o n e t o n
tr u c k s .

I w is h n o w t o i n c r e a s e m y f l e e t .

I f I w e r e to – I g o o u t o n

t e n d e r. I f I w e r e t o i n c r e a s e to s a y n o w c h a n g i n g f r o m To y o ta t o Fo r d f o r e x a m p l e . Th e d r iv e r tr a i n i n g i n a n a u t o m o tiv e tr u c k i s n o t t h e b i g
is s u e b u t I n o w h a v e a d i ff e r e n t w o r k s h o p f a c i li ty t h a t I h a v e t o s e t u p .
10

I h a v e a d i ffe r e n t s p a r e s h o l d in g t h a t I h a v e t o s e t u p a n d t h is
c o m p le x i ty is a m p l i fi e d w h e n o n e d e a ls w i t h lo c o m o t iv e s b e c a u s e o f th e
n a t u r e o f t h e ir s p a r e s a n d t h e l o n g t e r m c a p i ta l i t e m s t h o s e s p a r e s h o w
lo n g t h e y a r e h e ld f o r a n d t h e – t h e p r ic e o f t h o s e s p a r e s . S o i t m e a n s
t h a t – a s a n e x a m p l e – I n o w h a v e t o h o l d s p a r e s fo r To y o t a . I h a v e t o
h o l d s p a r e d f o r F o r d b u t if I j u s t i n c r e a s e m y f le e t i n To y o t a - f o r
e x a m p l e - I d o n o t h a v e to d o u b l e u p o n my s p a r e s h o l d in g b e c a u s e
t h o u g h d o u b li n g my f l e e t I o n ly n e e d t o i n c r e a s e m y s p a r e s b y p e r h a p s
2 5 p e r c e n t w h e r e a s I w o u l d h a v e t o d o it c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t ly if I
c h a n g e d t h e b r a n d w h ic h I w a s ( i n d is ti n c t) e x a c tl y t h e s a m e ty p e o f

20

a r g u m e n t a n d s a v in g s h o l d t r u e i n l o c o m o t i v e s p a r e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Then if – if we are to

u n d e r s t a n d y o u b a s e d o n w h a t y o u h a v e p r e v i o u s l y s a i d y o u a lr e a d y
h a d 11 0 1 9 E l o c o m o tiv e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .

Page 71 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d i f th e p r o p o s a l w a s u p h e l d y o u w o u ld

a c q u ir e a 1 9 E t y p e e q u i v a l e n t a n d w h e n y o u c o n f in e t h a t a c q u is i t io n t o
M A R S y o u w o u l d a c t u a l ly a c q u ir e a 1 9 E b e c a u s e t h a t i s a M i ts u i
lo c o m o t iv e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d w o u l d w e b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t th e n e w
1 0 0 t o b e a c q u ir e d w o u l d b e r e p l a c in g t h e 7 E a n d th e 11 E t h a t w e r e
c u r r e n tly p a r t o f th e fl e e t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I t w o u l d c e r t a i n ly b e r e p l a c i n g t h e
10

7 E a n d i t w o u ld n o t b e r e p l a c in g t h e 11 E i m m e d i a t e ly b u t t h e b u s i n e s s
c a s e w a s a l s o t o in c r e a s e t h e t o n n a g e s c o n v e y e d o v e r th e c o a l l in e .
S o to c o n v e y t h o s e in c r e a s e d to n n a g e s w e n e e d a d d i ti o n a l l o c o m o ti v e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e n w it h t h e r e p la c e m e n t o f 7 E a n d t h e
11 0 a lr e a d y a t h a n d i f th e p r o p o s a l h a d b e e n u p h e l d t o c o n f in e t o
M A R S t h e d iv is i o n w o u l d h a v e e n d e d u p w i t h p r e d o m in a n t ly 1 9 E
lo c o m o t iv e s to r u n t h e c o a l l in e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w y o u – y o u p o i n te d u s t o p a g e 2 0 1 u n d e r
s t a n d a r d i s a t io n .

20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d – a n d r e f e r e n c e is m a d e t h e r e t o t h e

a w a r d o f 9 5 e le c t r ic lo c o m o t iv e s t o C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And you pointed out that none of these had

b e e n d e l iv e r e d . T h e r e w a s a – th e r e w a s o n l y a p r o t o t y p e t h a t w a s i n

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t e s ti n g p h a s e a t th e ti m e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Would we be correct to – to assume therefore
t h a t th e r e w a s n o t h i n g in h a n d w it h th e c o d i v i s i o n t o s t a n d a r d is e w i t h
a n y th in g t h a t C S R w o u l d – w o u l d s u p p l y i n te r ms o f t h is p r o p o s a l ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

If I m a y j u s t s a y w e – w e u s e t h e

t e r m “ c o a l l i n e ” . I t is n o t a s e p a r a t e d iv is i o n o n it s l i n e . I t is a n e t w o r k
s e p a r a t io n b u t th e r e w a s n o th i n g f o r t h e c o a l li n e th a t w o u l d b e
c o m p a ti b l e o r p r e v i o u s ly d e liv e r e d fr o m S C R .
10

So in fact we had no

S C R l o c o m o ti v e e i t h e r i n g e n e r a l fr e i g h t a t th a t ti m e o r o n t h e c o a l li n e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w i f I – I ta k e y o u a p a g e b a c k t o 2 0 0 a t

w h a t w a s i t e m o r p a r a g r a p h 6 8 y o u r o r i g in a l m e m o r a n d u m li s t e d f o u r
f a c to r s th e r e i n s e e k i n g t o a d d r e s s t h e q u e s t io n o f u r g e n c y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I s e e th a t a ll t h a t n o w – a ll th o s e h a v e b e e n –
h a v e b e e n c a n c e l le d o u t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t t h e y h a v e b e e n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Is t h e C h a ir t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t w h e r e a s y o u

w e r e a r g u i n g i f w e a c q u ir e t h e M A R S lo c o m o ti v e s Tr a n s n e t w o u l d n o t
20

h a v e d i ff ic u l t ie s w it h g o in g th r o u g h t h e t e e th in g p h a s e fir s t a n d
f o r e m o s t b e c a u s e t h e y a r e a lr e a d y r u n n in g a 1 9 E ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

S p e c i fic a lly

because

th e

new

lo c o m o t iv e s o r t h e a d d i t io n a l 1 0 0 w o u ld b e o f t h e 1 9 E t y p e - m a y b e
w i t h a m i n o r u p d a t e d v a r i a ti o n – t h e y h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h a l l – y e s t h e y
h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h t h e t e e t h in g p h a s e a n d a ll th e b u g s h a v e b e e n

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ir o n e d o u t. A ll th e p r o d u c t io n b u g s h a v e b e e n i r o n e d o u t . S e c o n d ly …
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Continue, yes.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

S e c o n d ly t h e p r o d u c ti o n li n e i s

a v a i la b le a n d i t c o u l d b e s t a r t e d i m m e d ia t e ly.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e h a v e n o c r e w w h ic h n e e d s to

b e tr a i n e d o r p a s s e d o u t o n l o c o m o tiv e s a n d b y d r a w i n g a n a n a lo g y
s i m il a r t o a n a ir l in e tr a i n d r iv e r s a r e p a s s e d o u t f o r a p a r t ic u l a r c l a s s o f
lo c o m o t iv e . T h e y c a n n o t a r b it r a r il y c h a n g e fr o m o n e c l a s s t o t h e o t h e r.
10

I t is n o t l ik e I c l i m b i n t o a c a r b r a n d A t o m o r r o w a n d I c a n d r iv e c a r
b a n d – b r a n d B t h e n e x t d a y. T h e y h a v e t o p a s s th r o u g h a p a r tic u la r
p a s s o u t p r o c e d u r e r e tr a i n i n g fo r th e c h a r a c t e r i s t ic s o f t h a t l o c o m o t iv e
w h ic h

addressed

th e

d r iv e r

one

and

perh aps

s u m m a r is i n g

th e

p r o d u c t io n w e – D e ff e c t iv e l y s u m m a r i s e d p o i n t s B - A a n d B a b o v e t h a t
c o n fi n e m e n t w o u l d b e t h e q u ic k e s t d e li v e r y w i t h th e e x is t in g fa c i li ti e s
a lr e a d y a v a i l a b le a n d p r e v i o u s ly u s e d fo r a s s e m b ly o f t h e 11 0 th a t w e
h a d o n t h e c o a l li n e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Now I see then at 68 that what you previously
h a d in t h a t p a r a g r a p h t o a d d r e s s th e q u e s ti o n o f u r g e n c y h a s b e e n
20

d e l e t e d i n i ts e n t ir e ty ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In it s e n t ir e t y y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And it does not – there does not appear to

h a v e b e e n a s u b s t i tu t io n th e r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I n d e e d . W h a t h a s b e e n p u t i n it s

p l a c e o r le f t is t h e fo ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h w h i c h is n o w 6 8 w a s c o m p l e ti n g

Page 74 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h e u r g e n c y. W e h a d a p a r a g r a p h s p e c i fi c a l ly a d d r e s s i n g th e u r g e n c y
a s to w h y i t w a s u r g e n t …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

And

then

paragraph

68

was

c o m p li m e n ti n g th e a b o v e .

I t w a s n o t t h e – i t w a s a d d in g t h e

c o m p li m e n t a r y in f o r m a ti o n .

It was not the prime de facto reasons for

the

u r g e n c y.

Th e y

have

now

–

th i s

change

has

turned

th e

c o m p li m e n t a r y r e a s o n s i n t o th e p r i m e r e a s o n s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: So then the actual document does not address
10

u r g e n c y. I t j u s t k ic k s o ff w i th a p h r a s e c o m p li m e n ti n g th e u r g e n c y t h a t
h a s n o t b e e n d e a l t w i th ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t i s a fa c t o f i t .
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m tr y in g t o m a k e s e n s e o f t h a t . A r e y o u a b l e t o

m a k e s e n s e o f th a t ?

How do you compliment urgency when you have

not addressed urgency when you have not addressed urgency?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I a m a fr a i d I c a n n o t a n s w e r t h i s

C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e i n o u r o r i g i n a l d o c u m e n t w e a d d r e s s e d t h e u r g e n c y
…
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

And

then

we

added

factors

c o m p li m e n ti n g t h e u r g e n c y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W h o e v e r c h a n g e d t h e d o c u m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 75 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ta l k t o t h a t la t e r – t h e a u th o r s o f

the changed document …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W o u l d h a v e t o a n s w e r t o …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W h y t h e y t o o k o u t th e f a c t o r s o f

urgency …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

A n d p u t i n o n l y c o m p li m e n t in g

u r g e n c y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I

can

o ff e r

that

if

one

left

addressing the urgency in …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Th e o r i g in a l p o i n t s o f u r g e n c y –

C S R - w o u l d n o t h a v e c o m p li e d w i th a d d r e s s i n g t h e u r g e n c y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Because

th e y

have

not been

t h r o u g h a te e t h i n g p h a s e .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

We do not have any on the coal

li n e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e r e is n o p r o d u c t i o n li n e in

S o u th A fr ic a a t t h e m o m e n t fo r t h o s e C S R 9 5 lo c o m o t iv e s .

Page 76 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e h a v e o n l y h a d o n e i n fr o m

C h i n a – p r o d u c ti o n li n e s ti ll h a v e t o b e s t a r t e d u p .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C r e w a n d d r iv e r s a n d a s s i s t a n c e

s t il l h a v e t o b e tr a i n e d f o r th e 9 5 lo c o m o t iv e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

A n d c o n fi n e m e n t w i ll r e a l is e th e

q u ic k e s t d e li v e r y a s w i ll b e s h o w n la t e r b e c a u s e t h e 9 5 h a s t o b e – t h e
10

w h o le p r o d u c t io n li n e h a s to b e s e t u p f o r th e c o n f in e m e n t t o 9 5
n e g a te s th e w h o l e te e t h i n g p r o t o ty p e t e s t i n g d r iv e r tr a in in g . I t n e g a t e s
a l l o f t h o s e r e a s o n s w e h a d w h i c h a d d r e s s e d – w h ic h w e r e a d d r e s s i n g
t h e u r g e n c y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n w h e n w e a r e o n t h a t
s e c t io n n o w t h a t s u r v iv e d d e a li n g w i t h c o m p l i m e n ti n g t h e u r g e n c y.

I

w o u ld l ik e u s t o h a v e p a r ti c u l a r r e g a r d to p a r a g r a p h B w h i c h r e a d s a s
t h e o r i g in a l r e a d . T h e ta il e n d o f t h a t s ta t e m e n t h a s g o t a n a d d i ti o n a l t h e o r i g in a l r e a d :
“ T h e lo c o m o t iv e s w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l w it h
20

t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p li e d .”
I w il l s t o p t h e r e f o r n o w a n d th a t s ta t e m e n t is r e t a i n e d in th e r e w o r k e d
v e r s i o n o f th is d o c u m e n t . W o u l d t h a t b e a c o r r e c t s t a t e m e n t i n s o f a r a s
the CSR …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y d i d y o u ju m p b e t w e e n d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n ts ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o , n o C h a ir. I a m a t p a g e 2 0 0 .

Page 77 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e I a m t o o .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. T h e C h a i r s e e s w h e r e th e o l d 6 8 w e r e
addressing urgencies all deleted?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t i s fo ll o w e d t h e n b y t h e n e x t s e s s i o n h e a d e d
“ C o m p l i m e n t i n g t h e u r g e n c y w h ic h … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h ic h is w h a t M r C a ll a r d h a s ju s t s p o k e n t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : U n d e r c o m p l i m e n ti n g u r g e n c y y o u h a v e A , B ,
C.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I a m a d d r e s s i n g m y s e l f to – to B t h e r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e s a y in g E . S o I w a s l o o k i n g

for E.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O h , s o r r y. B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B . O h , o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f I s a i d E I a p o l o g is e . I m i s s p o k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, B .
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I m e a n t t o s a y B C h a ir a n d - a n d o n e c a n s e e
fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t t h e f ir s t p a r t o f B is t h e o r i g in a l s t a t e m e n t a s
c o n ta in e d i n th e p r o p o s a l t o c o n fi n e to M i t s u i . C o r r e c t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d I d id p o i n t o u t th a t i t a p p e a r s t o h a v e a n
– t o h a v e a n a d d i ti o n b u t fo r n o w l e t u s c o n fi n e o u r s e l v e s to th e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
o r i g in a l s t a t e m e n t w h ic h r e a d s :
“ T h e lo c o m o t iv e s w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l w it h
t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p li e d .”
I f th a t s t a t e m e n t is r e t a i n e d i n a p r o p o s a l a r g u i n g f o r c o n fi n e m e n t t o
C S R t h a t w o u l d b e in c o r r e c t b e c a u s e C S R h a s n o t p r o v i d e d a n y
lo c o m o t iv e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t s t a t e m e n t w o u l d b e f a ls e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: It would be false?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W o u l d b e f a ls e .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It w o u ld b e f a l s e in t w o w a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a te n tl y f a ls e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P a te n tl y f a l s e b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

They

have

not

supplied

a

lo c o m o t iv e i n p r o d u c ti o n . W e h a v e a p r o t o ty p e . I t is n o t i n p r o d u c ti o n .
E q u a ll y t o t h a t i f w e r e a d t h e p h r a s e a s it h a s b e e n e x p a n d e d i n t h e
m o d i f ic a ti o n t h e l o c o m o tiv e s w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l t o t h o s e a l r e a d y
s u p p li e d a n d to b e s u p p li e d . “ To b e s u p p li e d ” t h a t p h r a s e i s i n d ir e c t
20

c o n tr a d ic ti o n w i th p o i n t D a t t h e t o p o f p a g e 2 0 0 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t t h a t p o in t D o n t h e p a g e 2 0 0 i s t h e f o u r t h
r e q u ir e m e n t f o r c o n f in e m e n t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : R i g h t a n d i f I m a y r e a d :
“ W i th t h e t o ta l s e r v ic e s b e in g p r o c u r e d a r e h i g h ly
s p e c i a lis e d a n d l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l t o th o s e p r e v i o u s ly

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
e x e c u te d b y t h a t s u p p l i e r.”
S o t h e p h r a s e “ a n d to b e s u p p l ie d ” c a n n o t b e c o m p a t ib l e w i th t h o s e
p r e v i o u s ly e x e c u t e d b y t h e s u p p l ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d w h o e v e r w a s m a k i n g t h e c h a n g e s c o u ld n o t
h a v e n e g l ig e n tly l e f t th is p a r t i n b e c a u s e d o e s i t n o t s e e m t h a t h e o r
s h e w o u l d h a v e r e a d t h is – th is p a r t :
“ T h e lo c o m o t iv e s w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l w it h
t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p li e d .”
T h e m o m e n t t h e y r e a d t h a t t h e y w o u l d k n o w t h a t f a c t u a l ly a s f a r a s
10

C S R is c o n c e r n e d t h e r e w e r e n o l o c o m o t i v e s t h a t h a d p r e v io u s ly b e e n
s u p p li e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I

–

I

have

two

possible

in t e r p r e t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h o r m a y b e t h e – th e – i f i t w a s n e g li g e n c e m a y b e

t h e y h a d a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e - o f t h i s p a r t o f t h e d o c u m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t w a s e i th e r e x tr e m e n e g l ig e n c e

…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

I n w h ic h c a s e t h e y s h o u l d n o t b e

addressing the document …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O r d e l ib e r a te m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I h a v e n o o th e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o n c l u s i o n i n m y m i n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m ; b e c a u s e th e – th e w h o l e p r o c e s s d i d a d d r e s s th e
is s u e – y o u r m e m o r a n d u m a d d r e s s e d th e is s u e o f a r e w e d e a l i n g w i t h
a n e n t i ty th a t h a s p r e v io u s ly s u p p li e d u s t h e s e l o c o m o ti v e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i n te r m s o f y o u r m e m o r a n d u m w h e n y o u s a i d th a t
w a s t h e c a s e t h a t w a s s o b e c a u s e th a t w a s f a c t u a lly t h e c a s e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M A R S h a d s u p p l i e d lo c o m o t iv e s ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M A R S h a d s u p p li e d l o c o m o tiv e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ve r y r e c e n t ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja and now if somebody was going to say well let us
t a lk a b o u t C S R a n d t h e y s e e a s t a t e m e n t t h a t s a y s :
“ T h e lo c o m o t iv e s w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l w it h
t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p li e d .”
T h e y h a v e g o t to a s k t h e m s e l v e s h a s C S R p r e v i o u s l y s u p p l ie d
lo c o m o t iv e s .

T h a t is i n c a s e t h e y t h i n k t h e y m i g h t n o t b e s u r e b u t i f

t h e y k n o w f o r s u r e t h a t C S R h a s n e v e r s u p p li e d a n y l o c o m o ti v e s
20

le a v in g i t – l e a v i n g t h a t p a r t o f t h e s t a te m e n t t h e r e is q u it e s e r io u s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In d e e d s o .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I w o u l d …
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Please.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I w o u ld s h o w l a te r th a t t h e p h r a s e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
“ la r g e l y i d e n t ic a l” a s i t r e l a te s t o C S R d o e s a l s o n o t h o l d b e c a u s e t h e
lo c o m o t iv e s th a t w e r e p e r h a p s c o n t e m p l a t e d t h e 9 0 – th e l o c o m o t iv e s
t h a t h a d b e e n s u p p l i e d - t h a t w e r e o n o r d e r fr o m C S R n o t y e t s u p p l ie d
t h e 9 5 l o c o m o t iv e s - t h a t c la s s – w e r e n o t i d e n ti c a l - w e r e n o t l a r g e l y
id e n t ic a l t o t h o s e t h a t w e r e fi n a l ly s u p p l ie d .

T h e p h r a s e “ l a r g e ly

id e n t ic a l ” d o e s n o t h o ld tr u e e it h e r.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d c o u l d i t b e t h a t s o m e b o d y c o u l d s a y w e ll

p a r a g r a p h B d id n o s a y t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p li e d n e e d e d t o b e t h o s e
a lr e a d y s u p p li e d b y C S R i f th e y w e r e g o i n g t o b e l a r g e l y i d e n t ic a l t o
10

t h o s e t h a t Tr a n s n e t a lr e a d y h a d e v e n if t h e y w e r e s u p p l ie d b y
s o m e b o d y e ls e . T h e s t a te m e n t w o u ld b e o k a y. W o u l d – w o u l d t h a t k i n d
o f a r g u m e n t a p p ly ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y Mr C h a ir c o u l d y o u ju s t - I –
I d i d n o t h e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t – j a l e t m e r e p e a t. Yo u s e e p a r a g r a p h B th a t
w e a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S a y s t o th e r e a d e r o f t h is m e m o r a n d u m w h e n y o u

r e a d i t t o g e t h e r w i th t h e c h a n g e s t h a t h a v e b e e n e ffe c te d to y o u r
20

m e m o r a n d u m . S a y s th a t :
“ C S R w il l b e s u p p ly i n g – th a t t h e l o c o m o ti v e s t h a t
C S R w o u l d b e s u p p l y i n g w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n t ic a l
w i t h t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p l ie d .”
N o w b a s e d o n y o u r m e m o r a n d u m w h e n y o u w r o t e t h i s y o u w r o t e th is i n
t h e c o n t e x t t h a t t h e l o c o m o t iv e s a l r e a d y s u p p l ie d w e r e l o c o m o t iv e s

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a lr e a d y s u p p l i e d b y t h e e n t i ty th a t w a s s o u g h t t o b e g iv e n t h e c o n tr a c t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s a y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I a m n o w s a y i n g is it – i s i t p o s s i b l e – is i t
p l a u s i b le i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h – o f p a r a g r a p h f o r s o m e b o d y
t o s a y a lr e a d y s u p p li e d – l o c o m o ti v e s a lr e a d y s u p p li e d d i d n o t h a v e t o
b e l o c o m o t iv e s a l r e a d y s u p p l i e d b y C S R a s l o n g a s Tr a n s n e t h a d
lo c o m o t iv e s t h a t i t a l r e a d y h a d e v e n i f th e y w e r e s u p p l i e d b y s o m e b o d y
10

e ls e a n d n o w C S R w a s s o m e b o d y e l s e .

I f C S R w o u ld s u p p l y

lo c o m o t iv e s t h a t w e r e l a r g e ly i d e n t ic a l t o l o c o m o ti v e s th a t Tr a n s n e t
a lr e a d y h a d th a t w o u l d – t h a t w o u l d m e a n t h a t t h is p a r a g r a p h is n o t
f a ls e .

I n o t h e r w o r d s th e lo c o m o t iv e s t h a t w e r e c o n t e m p la t e d C S R

w o u ld s u p p ly.

W e r e th e y g o i n g t o b e l a r g e ly id e n tic a l t o t h o s e t h a t

M A R S h a d s u p p li e d b e fo r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

The

l o c o m o tiv e s

that

c o n te m p l a t e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I s a y l e t m e u s e th e p h r a s e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n t e m p l a t e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P o te n ti a l ly c o n te m p l a te d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To b e s u p p li e d b y C S R …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W e r e n o t la r g e l y i d e n ti c a l …

Page 83 of 200

were

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To th o s e a lr e a d y s u p p l i e d b y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : By M A R S .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e c a t e g o r is e l o c o m o ti v e s b y

lo c o m o t iv e t y p e s . S o …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Yo u h e a r d u s s p e c i fic a lly t a l k o f a
10

1 9 E l o c o m o ti v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A 1 9 E is a d i ff e r e n t l o c o m o tiv e t o a
2 0 E lo c o m o t iv e .

I t h a s – a n d t h a t w o u l d g e n e r a l ly b e – i t h a s a

d i ff e r e n t w e i g h t.

I t h a s a d i ff e r e n t p o w e r.

It might be – have a

d i ff e r e n t tr a c t io n . I t h a s d i ffe r e n t c o m p o n e n t s a n d a ls o fr o m a d i ff e r e n t
s u p p li e r b e c a u s e t h e s p a r e s a n d t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e l o c o m o ti v e a r e
s u b tly d i ff e r e n t . S o t h e 9 5 l o c o m o ti v e s t h a t w e w e r e g e t ti n g fr o m C S R
w e r e t h e n – w e r e k n o w n i n th e o r g a n is a t i o n a s ty p e 2 0 E e v e n t h o u g h
w e h a d n o t g o t o n e o r w e o n l y h a d a p r o t o ty p e .
20

I t w a s c l a s s i fi e d

a lr e a d y a s a ty p e 2 0 E . A ty p e 2 0 E lo c o m o ti v e i s n o t l a r g e ly i d e n t ic a l t o
the 19E.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

S o t h e c o n t e m p l a te d d e li v e r y o f

t h e 2 0 E l o c o m o t iv e s – t h e 9 5 2 0 E l o c o m o t iv e s b y S C R c a n n o t b e
c o n s i d e r e d la r g e ly i d e n t ic a l to t h e 1 9 E w e a lr e a d y h a d f r o m M A R S …

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ev e n th o u g h i t w a s c o n t e m p l a te d

d e li v e r y i n th e fu t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It c a n n o t b e c o n s i d e r e d i d e n t ic a l .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h e n i f I – i f I c a n j u s t p e r h a p s f o ll o w u p o n –
o n t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : ( In t e r v e n e s ) s o r r y.
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A g a in w e a r e – w e a r e s t il l a t p a g e 2 0 0 a n d
w e a r e l o o k i n g a t t h e v a r io u s r e q u ir e m e n ts ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : R e q u ir e m e n t D a t p a g e 2 0 0 - a t t h e t o p o f t h e
p a g e - s t a t e s a s f o l lo w s :
“When the goods or services been procured are
h i g h ly s p e c i a l is e d a n d l a r g e ly i d e n t ic a l t o t h o s e
p r e v i o u s ly e x e c u t e d b y t h a t s u p p l ie r.”
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

20

N o w I w i ll s to p t h e r e .

N o w C S R i n t h is

c o n te x t w o u l d n o t b e th a t s u p p l ie r b e c a u s e it h a d n o t p r e v i o u s l y t o
Tr a n s n e t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I n d e e d , a n d a c r i t ic a l p o in t , C S R

is t h a t s u p p l i e r a n d i t h a d n o t d e liv e r e d a n y t h i n g .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s , s o t h e r e w a s n o th i n g to c o m p a r e a n d

t h e r e f o r e t o d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r i t is id e n tic a l .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Nothing to compare it to.

A n d a s t h e C h a ir, o r a s y o u p o i n t o u t t h e

a d d it i o n to th a t s ta t e m e n t i s id e n tic a l w i t h t h o s e to b e s u p p li e d , y o u
s e e t h a t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

N o w t h e r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t t h e y b e i d e n ti c a l

t o th o s e s u p p li e d w o u ld b e o u ts i d e t h e s c o p e o f D , D r e q u ir e s th a t t h e y
( in d is ti n c t) s u p p l ie d B i n h a n d i n o r d e r t o b e c o m p a r e d a n d t o
d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r th e y a r e i d e n ti c a l , w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t i n s a y i n g s o ?
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

S o r r y c o u l d y o u j u s t r e - s t a te

t h a t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I’ m l o o k i n g a t B a n d w e a g r e e d th a t B is i n

t w o p a r ts .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

I t s a y s t h a t t h e l o c o m o ti v e s w o u l d l a r g e l y

b e id e n tic a l w i th t h o s e a l r e a d y s u p p li e d a n d w e h a v e a n s w e r e d t h e
q u e s t io n s th a t t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n s u p p li e d a n d t h e r e ’s a n a d d it i o n th a t
– t h e r e t h a t s a y s , e n d to b e s u p p l i e d . N o w I ’ m a d d r e s s i n g my s e l f t o b e
s u p p li e d e v e n – n o w t h e p r o p o s i t io n I’ m m a k i n g is e v e n i f t h e y w e r e
20

id e n t ic a l t o th o s e to b e s u p p l i e d t h a t w o u l d b e b e y o n d t h e r e q u i r e m e n t
o f D – o r r e q u ir e m e n t D o f c o n fi n e m e n t b e c a u s e D s a y s t h a t th e y m u s t
h a v e b e e n p r e v i o u s l y s u p p l i e d , n o t t o b e s u p p li e d in t h e f u tu r e .
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d i t w a s th e

p o i n t I w a s m a k i n g i f I m a y r e - s t a te it .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

C S R h a d n o t s u p p l ie d a n y

lo c o m o t iv e s , w e h a d o n o r d e r, l o c o m o ti v e s fr o m C S R , th e y h a v e n o t
b e e n s u p p l ie d s o t h e y a r e i n t h e “ t o b e s u p p li e d ” a r e n a , th e y a r e t o b e
s u p p li e d , t h e y c a n n o t th e r e fo r e c o m p ly w i t h t h e r e q u i r e m e n t p r e v i o u s l y
e x e c u te d b y t h a t s u p p li e r a n d t h a t’s t h e p o i n t , th e y a r e t o b e s u p p li e d
a n d th e y ’v e n o t b e e n e x e c u t e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll d o e s n ’ t t h a t p a r t t h a t s a y “ e n d t o b e s u p p li e d ”

c o m p o u n d th e p r o b le m ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

CHAIRPERSON :

I n d e e d i t d i d Mr C h a ir m a n y e s .

B e c a u s e t h e p a r a g r a p h s a y s t h e lo c o m o t iv e s w o u ld

b e – w o u l d b e la r g e l y i d e n t ic a l w i t h th o s e a lr e a d y s u p p li e d , t h a t’s w h a t
it s a y s .

N o w t h e r e y o u ’r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e l o c o m o ti v e – t h e f ir s t

r e fe r e n c e to lo c o m o t iv e s h a s to b e a r e fe r e n c e t o t h e l o c o m o ti v e s t o b e
s u p p li e d , th e f ir s t r e f e r e n c e t h a t t h e o n e s t o b e s u p p li e d w o u l d l a r g e ly
– w o u l d b e la r g e l y i d e n ti c a l t o t h o s e t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n s u p p li e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

A lr e a d y b e e n s u p p l ie d .

Ye s , n o w t h a t m a k e s s e n s e o k a y n o w i f y o u t h e n

a d d , e n d t o b e s u p p li e d i t s e e m s t o m e w h a t th e s e n te n c e t h e n s a y s is ,
t h e l o c o m o t iv e s w o u l d b e l a r g e ly – th e l o c o m o t iv e s t o b e s u p p l i e d b y
20

CSR.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

W o u l d l a r g e l y b e – w o u l d b e l a r g e ly i d e n ti c a l w i t h

t h o s e to b e s u p p li e d w i th th o s e th a t h a v e b e e n s u p p l i e d a n d w i th t h o s e
t o b e s u p p li e d , o r a m I m i s s in g s o m e t h i n g ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I’ m s o r r y, b e c a u s e C S R h a d n o t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s u p p li e d a n y lo c o m o t iv e s y e t , t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g t o c o m p a r e t h e m t o .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o , n o le a v e t h a t p a r t w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t p a r t ,

f o c u s o n th e “ to b e s u p p l ie d ” r ig h t , t h o s e t o b e s u p p l i e d , a s I
u n d e r s t a n d i t is l o c o m o ti v e s – r e f e r s t o l o c o m o ti v e s t o b e s u p p li e d b y
C S R o n th is a m e n d e d v e r s io n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

O n t h is o n e y e s .

O k a y l e t ’s s ta r t a g a in j u s t s o t h a t w e ’r e o n t h e s a m e

page.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y.

I’ m s a y i n g i f y o u l e a v e o u t th e a d d e d p a r t w h ic h

s a y s “ a n d t o b e s u p p li e d ” i f y o u le a v e t h a t p a r t o u t , th e s e n t e n c e
m a k e s s e n s e , i t s a y s i n e ff e c t , “ t h e l o c o m o tiv e s t h a t a r e t o b e s u p p l ie d
b y t h e s u p p li e r t h a t t h e m e m o is ta lk i n g a b o u t w ill l a r g e ly b e i d e n ti c a l
w i t h t h o s e a lr e a d y s u p p l ie d ” , a n d w e k n o w f r o m D a t th e to p t h a t M s
S e ll o h a s r e f e r r e d t o th a t , t h a t m e a n s t h o s e p r e v i o u s l y s u p p li e d b y t h e
s a m e s u p p l ie r o k a y, th a t’s fi n e b u t n o w t h e y a d d th a t t h e l o c o m o tiv e s t o
b e s u p p li e d w i ll l a r g e ly b e i d e n ti c a l w it h t h o s e a n d n o w I s k i p y o u r p a r t
– with those to be supplied.

T h e l o c o m o ti v e s t o b e s u p p l ie d b y C S R

w i ll l a r g e ly b e i d e n ti c a l w i th th o s e t o b e s u p p li e s b y – t h a t s e e m s t o m e
20

to be what he says.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I ’ m s t r u g g l in g w i t h t h a t

e n o r m o u s ly if I m a y s a y t h e s e l f r e fe r e n ti a l p a r t o f t h a t b e c a u s e i f C S R
is s u p p ly i n g L o c o s o n th e 9 5 c o n tr a c t t h e l o c o m o tiv e s t h a t w il l b e
s u p p li e d u n d e r – i f t h i s c o n fi n e m e n t w e r e t o g o to C S R c o u l d n o t b e
la r g e l y id e n tic a l t o th o s e o f t h e 9 5 t h e y c o u l d n o t b e l a r g e ly i d e n t ic a l

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a s I s a i d b e c a u s e t h e 9 5 l o c o m o ti v e s w e r e f o r g e n e r a l fr e i g h t t h e y w e r e
2 2 to n a x l e lo c o m o t iv e s t h e y w e r e o f a l e s s e r p o w e r, i f C S R w e r e t o
s u p p ly t h e s e lo c o m o t iv e s a s w e k n o w t h e y e v e n t u a l ly d i d , t h e y w o u l d
h a v e t o b e h e a v i e r a n d m o r e p o w e r fu l s o th e y c o u l d n o t b e l a r g e l y
id e n t ic a l .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t th e e s s e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h B a s y o u h a d i t i n

your memo before they were supplied , I mean, that paragraph B is
li n k e d t o p a r a g r a p h D a t t h e to p o f p a g e 2 0 0 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Correct yes.

B e c a u s e i t ’s o n e o f t h e g r o u n d s o n w h i c h y o u c a n

ju s t i fy c o n f in e m e n t y o u k n o w.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

Correct y es.

T h a t w e a r e d e a l i n g h e r e w i t h a s u p p l ie r w h o h a s

p r e v i o u s ly u s w it h t h e s e k in d s o f g o o d s s o i t ’s j u s ti f ie d t o c o n fi n e t h is
a n d n o t t o g o t o o p e n t e n d e r.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja.

So now – but here now it w ould then say in regard

t o w h a t t h e y ’v e a d d e d , t h e l o c o m o ti v e s t o b e s u p p l ie d b y C S R w o u l d
la r g e l y b e i d e n ti c a l to t h o s e t o b e s u p p li e d b y C S R .
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h a t w a s m y s e l f r e f e r e n t ia l

p r o b le m s o r r y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s C h a ir w e – c le a r ly th e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

M a y b e t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e d o n ’ t – w e d o n ’ t

a l l u n d e r s ta n d t h a t s o m e b o d y, n o t i n th is r o o m m i g h t . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

P e r h a p s th a t m i g h t s h e d l ig h t b u t t h e e ffe c t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
o f w h a t t h e C h a ir is p o i n ti n g o u t is w e p r o p o s e t h a t w e s u p p l y to C S R
b e c a u s e – n o w e p r o p o s e t h a t w e c o n fi n e to C S R b e c a u s e th e
lo c o m o t iv e s t o b e s u p p l ie d b y C S R a r e i d e n tic a l t o t h o s e l o c o m o ti v e s t o
s t il l b e s u p p li e d b y C S R th a t ’s th e s u m e ff e c t o f it .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

And as I said they cannot be

id e n t ic a l b e c a u s e t h e l o c o m o ti v e s o n o r d e r to b e s u p p li e d , o n o r d e r,
c a n n o t b e i d e n t ic a l t o th e l o c o m o tiv e s i n te n d e d u n d e r t h is c o n f in e m e n t ,
t h e y a r e n o t th e s a m e l o c o m o t iv e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

B e c a u s e th e o n e s t h a t a r e o n o r d e r a r e 2 0 E

a n d w e a r e l o o k i n g f o r 1 9 E w h ic h is a h e a v ie r. . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

A n d w e a r e lo o k in g f o r a h e a v ie r

lo c o m o t iv e y e s . S o w h a t ’s o n o r d e r c a n n o t b e id e n tic a l t o w h a t ’s
in t e n d e d i n t h i s c o n f in e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e , t o c o m p a r e , y o u n e e d a t le a s t t w o t h i n g s .

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

Correct.

Yo u c a n ’ t c o m p a r e if y o u ’ v e g o t o n e th in g , th e

lo c o m o t iv e s to b e s u p p li e d a r e th e , y o u k n o w, a r e t h e s a m e l o c o m o ti v e s
t h a t th e y a r e c o m p a r i n g t h e m w i t h , y o u k n o w. J a o k a y le t ’s m o v e o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

M a y b e t h e a u t h o r o f th e c h a n g e s w i ll s h e d

s o m e li g h t C h a i r y e s . Th e n i f w e m o v e o n w e m o v e t o p a g e 2 0 1 o f th e
s a m e d o c u m e n t u n d e r, s ta n d a r d is a ti o n , y o u r e a d – y o u d e a l t w i t h i t e m
( i) , a t 2 0 1 w h ic h is w h e r e r e fe r e n c e to 9 5 E l e c tr i c L o c o s is m a d e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

N o w u n d e r D t h e r e a t p a g e 2 0 1 th e r e a r e

t w o – t h e r e a r e th r e e fa c to r s th a t a r e a d v a n c e d t o j u s t i fy a c o n f in e m e n t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t o C S R , w e ’ v e d e a l t w i t h t h e f ir s t a n d w e c a n n o t m a k e s e n s e o f i t b u t
a s y e t t h e r e ’s a s e c o n d a n d a t h ir d , I ’ m p a r t ic u l a r ly in t e r e s t e d i n t h e
s e c o n d , c a n y o u e x p r e s s a v ie w o n t h a t f a c t o r i f y o u a r e a b l e t o ?
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

M a y I ju s t p ic k u p w h e r e y o u a r e ,

are we under D.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

( ii) , n e w tw o .

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : D , n e w ( i i) ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:
10

I s t h is t h e o n e , p r o d u c ti o n o f th e

c u r r e n t M A R S c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n c o m p le t e d .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

And was based on a previous

p r o c u r e m e n t m e t h o d o l o g y w h e r e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t w a s n o t a k e y
f o c u s a n d t h e M i ts u i c o n s o r ti u m d i d n o t f a r e w e l l in t h e tw o m o s t r e c e n t
t e n d e r s is s u e d b y Tr a n s n e t , t h e r e f o r e c o n ti n u a ti o n w i t h M it s u i v ia
c o n fi n e m e n t w o u l d p o s e u n n e c e s s a r y r i s k s t o t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . I t is m y
in t e r p r e t a ti o n t h a t th is r e fe r t o t h e tw o te n d e r s t h e o n e o n w h ic h , i t i s
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g , t h a t M i ts u i – s o r r y w h i c h w a s f o r th e 9 5 lo c o m o t iv e s
w h ic h w a s a n o p e n t e n d e r p r o c e s s fo r w h ic h b o th M i ts u i a n d M A R S
20

t e n d e r e d w h i c h w a s a w a r d e d , a m o n g s t o t h e r s , w h ic h w a s a w a r d e d to
C S R a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e t e n d e r f o r th e
5 9 9 e l e c tr ic s a s p a r t o f t h e 1 0 6 4 w h e r e t h e y a r e s a y i n g – t h e a u t h o r
h e r e s t a te s t h a t M i ts u i d i d n o t f a r e w e l l in th o s e tw o m o s t r e c e n t
t e n d e r s . I f I m a y a d d , th a t w o u ld b e r a t h e r u n u s u a l t o p u t th is in h e r e
b e c a u s e t h is m e m o r a n d u m is d a t e d o r i t w a s u l ti m a t e l y d a t e d , v a r io u s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
d a t e s , it w e n t t o t h e B o a r d a n d A c q u i s i t i o n s D e v e lo p m e n t C o u n c i l o n
t h e 2 4 t h o f J a n u a r y a n d a t t h a t p o in t o n l y w a s th e s h o r t li s t i n g a n d th e
m e t h o d o l o g y w o u l d h a v e b e e n – o f t h e c o n f in e m e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
approved by the Board.

S o w h o e v e r w a s w r i t in g th is d o c u m e n t w a s

d o i n g s o w i t h p r i o r k n o w le d g e o f w h a t w a s g o i n g t o g o to t h e B o a r d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w y o u a r e v e r y f a m il ia r w i th t h e s e

d o c u m e n ts , I j u s t w a n t t o te s t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s r e g a r d s th e is s u e
r a i s e d in ( ii ) t h e e ffe c t – m y i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h a t is t h a t i t ’s s t a te d t h a t
M i ts u i d i d n o t fa r e w e l l i n t w o m o s t r e c e n t t e n d e r s i s s u e d b y Tr a n s n e t
10

a n d th a t i s t h e b a s is o n w h ic h w e c a n n o t c o n f i n e t o M i t s u i , s o w e a r e
p u n is h i n g M i ts u i f o r h a v in g f a i l e d i n t w o p r e v i o u s t e n d e r s , w o u l d I b e
correct?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t h i n k th a t i s a fa ir r e a d i n g o f

t h is p a r a g r a p h .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d b e c a u s e t h e y h a d fa il e d – d i d n o t f a r e

w e ll in p r e v io u s t w o t e n d e r s t h a t p o s e d a r is k to Tr a n s n e t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

That is how the author has

written this paragraph.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :
20

B a s e d o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a t Tr a n s n e t a n d

k n o w l e d g e w h a t r i s k c o u l d t h a t p o te n ti a l l y p o s e fo r Tr a n s n e t, c a n y o u
t h i n k o f a n y th a t p e r h a p s ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I d o n o t w is h to g o in t o t h e

realm of speculation.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

B u t I b e l i e v e a t o t a lly s e p a r a t e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a r e a o f d i s c u s s io n a n d d e b a t e w o u ld b e h o w t h i s s t a t e m e n t c a m e in t o
b e i n g a n d th e g e n e s is o f t h i s s t a t e m e n t i n t h e e v a lu a ti o n o f t h e 1 0 6 4 , I
d o n o t w is h to s a y a n y f u r th e r a b o u t i t a t t h e m o m e n t , I th in k i t n e e d s
t o b e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t c o u n s e l is a s k i n g a d i ff e r e n t q u e s t io n a n d f o r
y o u to b e a b l e to c o m m e n t i f y o u a r e a b l e t o .

I f I u n d e r s ta n d th e

q u e s t io n s h e w o u l d li k e y o u to s a y w h a t y o u t h i n k o f t h a t a r g u m e n t t h e y
p u t fo r w a r d s a y i n g M A R S h a d p e r fo r m e d p o o r ly i n t w o p r e v io u s , I t h i n k
it s t e n d e r s o r w h a t e v e r.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

Te n d e r s C h a ir.

W h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s a s to t h e

soundness of that argument.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O:

Ye s C h a ir.

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

M a y I a d d r e s s it i n t w o f o r m s ,

t e c h n ic a l ly t h e l o c o m o ti v e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n fi n e , w e h a v e g o n e
t h r o u g h v a r i o u s i t e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s i n e s s c a s e s i g n e d o ff b y v a r i o u s
p e o p l e a s w e w e n t t h r o u g h fr o m O c t o b e r t h r o u g h t o N o v e m b e r a n d t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n a n d c e r ta i n ly Fr e ig h t R a i l w a s h a p p y w i t h c o n fi n e m e n t t o
M A R S s o w e ’v e a d d r e s s e d th e te c h n ic a l i s s u e s o f th e l o c o m o t iv e . S o
20

t e c h n ic a l ly t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n n o r is k t o th e o r g a n is a ti o n . I c a n n o t
c o m m e n t a s t o w h a t r is k th e s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t m e t h o d o l o g y o r la c k
t h e r e o f p o s e d to th e o r g a n is a ti o n .

T h a t is a p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e a n d

t h a t m i g h t h a v e a – b e r e l a t e d t o th e i m a g e a n d / o r o t h e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n b u t i t w a s n o t a n o p e r a ti o n a l i s s u e , i f I m a y le a v e i t a t
that.

Page 93 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y t h a n k y o u . T h a t th e n ta k e s u s t o – i f

y o u ’v e g o t n o fu r t h e r c o m m e n ts o n y o u r p a r a g r a p h 4 0 . 3 th a t t h e n t a k e s
u s to a d i ff e r e n t i s s u e w h ic h y o u d e a l w i t h a t p a r a g r a p h 4 0 .4 .
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e j u s t s o t h a t M r C a ll a r d y o u d o n ’ t th i n k th a t

y o u a r e b e i n g p r e v e n t e d fr o m d e a li n g w i t h a n i s s u e t h a t y o u t h in k is
i m p o r t a n t y o u ju s t m e n ti o n e d w h a t y o u s a i d y o u th o u g h t t h e d e b a t e
s h o u l d b e in r e g a r d to th a t , s o i f y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t
s o m e s t a g e y o u c a n d o s o b u t i f y o u d o n ’t , y o u c a n d e a l w i t h i t n o w to
s a y w h a t w a s th e o r i g i n o f t h a t s o I le a v e i t to y o u a n d M s S e l lo
10

w h e t h e r t h a t i s d e a lt w i t h la t e r i n t h e s ta t e m e n t o r w h e th e r i t ’s
s o m e t h i n g y o u w a n t to d e a l w i th n o w.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h i s p a r t ic u la r a s p e c t is n o t d e a l t w i th

f u r th e r i n t h e s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

I t’s n o t d e a l t w i th fu r t h e r i n m y

s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s i f y o u a r e a b l e to g iv e e v id e n c e a b o u t th e o r i g i n

then do so.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLAR D:
20

T h is is a p e r s o n a l o p i n i o n b a s e d

o n m y p r e v i o u s – m y w o r k i n g – i t is n o t i n m y s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e it is
o u t s i d e o f m y b o u n d s o f p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e b u t it r e l a t e s t o
d o c u m e n ts I h a v e a c c e s s t o a n d r e a d t h a t t h e e v a lu a ti o n m e t h o d o lo g y
a s p r e s c r ib e d i n t h e – a s o r i g i n a l ly p r e s c r ib e d t h r o u g h th e D e p a r t m e n t
o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a s r e f le c t e d i n t o th e
r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a ls a s l a t e r t a k e n t h r o u g h i n t o t h e e v a lu a ti o n p r o c e s s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a n d t h e s c o r in g o f th e lo c o m o t iv e s I a m p e r s o n a l ly u n c o m f o r t a b le .

I

c a n n o t , a t th e m o m e n t s a y t h e – g i v e y o u t h e c h a p t e r a n d th e v e r s e o f
w h y I’ m u n c o m f o r ta b l e b u t fr o m e v e r y t h in g I h a v e r e a d a n d s e e n o f t h is
I a m u n c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t’s t h e e s s e n c e o f w h e r e I a m .
CHAIRPERSON :

Okay thank you.

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A s w e g o th r o u g h t h e s t a te m e n t p e r h a p s

w e ’l l h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i th s o m e o f th o s e is s u e s t h a t m a k e
y o u u n c o m f o r t a b l e a n d p e r h a p s C h a i r i t m i g h t a n s w e r t h e is s u e t h a t t h e
C h a ir r a is e s .
10

Yo u t h e n t a k e – r e fe r a t p a g e 9 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t i n

p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 4 0 .4 to p a g e 2 2 a s o n e o f t h e k e y c h a n g e s t h a t
y o u w a n te d to h i g h l ig h t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d y o u r p a g e 2 2 r e a ll y r e f e r s – 2 2 t y p e d

2 2 C h a ir th a t w o u l d b e p a g e 2 0 8 o f t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

I c a n n o t – m y c o m m e n t th e r e

w a s t h a t i f w e l o o k a t p a g e – a t th e t a b l e a t t h e to p o f p a g e 2 0 8 w h i c h
t a lk s t o th e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t c a te g o r y a n d i t h a s a – t h e w e i g h ti n g
20

w o u ld w h i c h w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d f o r v a r io u s s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t
c a t e g o r ie s , m y o n ly c o m m e n t o n t h is i s t h a t t h e w e i g h ti n g s h a v e b e e n
r e m o v e d . N o w t h e s e – I ’ m n o t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s p e c i a lis t b u t i n a l l o u r
t e n d e r s w e r e q u ir e th a t o u r t e n d e r e r s – t h e y a r e e v a l u a te d i n te r ms o f
t h e s e p a r ti c u la r w e ig h ti n g i t w a s b o th o f in t e r e s t – w e ll le t m e s a y i t
w a s o f – i t w a s u n u s u a l f o r m e t h a t h a v i n g c h a n g e d t h i s c o n fi n e m e n t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h a t t h e s e w e ig h ti n g s w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e m o v e d . I o ff e r th e c o m m e n t
o n ly i n h in d s i g h t fo r t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e h i n d s i g h t t o t h i s – t o w h e r e w e
k n o w s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t a n d l o c a l c o n t e n t h a s g o n e i n te r ms o f a ll
o u r lo c o m o t iv e b u i ld s I m a k e t h is c o m m e n t t h a t it u n u s u a l , I le a v e i t a t
that.
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

M a y I e n q u ir e t h e n , th e ta b l e a t p a g e 2 0 8

r e g a r d in g t h e w e i g h ti n g s , w h a t i s t h e – w h e n y o u p u t it in th e p r o p o s a l
w h e r e h a d y o u s o u r c e d t h a t fr o m w h a t is t h e s o u r c e o f t h a t ta b l e a n d
t h e a l lo c a t e d w e i g h ti n g s ?
10

M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

I n p r e p a r i n g th e s e d o c u m e n ts

o b v i o u s l y I r e l i e d o n m u l ti p l e s o u r c e s o f in f o r m a ti o n , b o t h fr o m m y
t e c h n ic a l c o ll e a g u e s a n d in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t m e th o d o l o g y fr o m m y
c o l l e a g u e s in S u p p ly C h a i n S e r v ic e a n d v a r i o u s o t h e r s .

I would have

g o t t h e t a b le f r o m t h e m o r t h e y w o u l d h a v e in s e r t e d t h e t a b l e w i t h m e
a n d w e m i g h t h a v e d is c u s s e d t h is b u t I c a n n o t b e c a t e g o r ic a s to s a y
t h is w a s m y e x a c t s o u r c e , e x c e p t to s a y i t w o u l d h a v e g e n e r a l ly c o m e
fr o m S u p p ly C h a in S e r v ic e s t h e m s e l v e s a n d o ft e n l if t e d o u t o f e x is t in g
( in d is ti n c t) d o c u m e n ts .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

A l t h o u g h y o u d e a l w i th i t i n a s li g h tl y

d i ff e r e n t o r d e r b u t b e c a u s e w e a r e a lr e a d y a t t h a t p a g e c a n y o u d e a l
t h e n w i t h y o u r is s u e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 0 .6 , I ’ m s k i p p i n g 4 0 . 5 w e ’l l c o m e
back.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

R i g h t.

S i m p l y b e c a u s e w e a r e a lr e a d y o n th e

relevant page.

Page 96 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

A n d lo o k in g a t t h e r e v is e d

p a r a g r a p h 9 0 s u b p a r a g r a p h D w h i c h is , Tr a n s n e t w il l r e q u e s t a Q u i n c e
r a n g e a n d th a t s h o u l d r e a d p r i c e r a n g e o f b e t w e e n 3 0 . 5 m il li o n a n d
3 2 m i ll io n f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f n e g o ti a ti o n w i t h t h e o b j e c t iv e o f c o m i n g in
a t 3 4 .4 m i ll io n p e r l o c o m o tiv e , to w h ic h w a s a d d e d t h e c o m m e n t , “ w h ic h
w i ll b e u s e d a s a g u id e a s i s d e p e n d e n t o n fo r e x f lu c tu a ti o n ” .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y n o w i n – le t ’s d e a l w i t h th a t s ta t e m e n t

in t w o p a r ts , l e t’s d e a l w i t h t h e o r i g i n a l s t a te m e n t a n d i ts m e a n i n g a n d
t h e n w e w i ll c o n s id e r t h e e ffe c t a n d i m p a c t o f th e a d d i t io n o n t h e
10

o r i g in a l s ta t e m e n t. N o w y o u r s u g g e s t io n w a s a p r ic e r a n g e o f b e t w e e n
3 0 . 5 t o 3 2 m i ll i o n c o m in g in p o s t n e g o t ia t io n s a t a r o u n d 3 4 . 3 4 m il li o n p e r
lo c o m o t iv e r i g h t . N o w m y f ir s t q u e s t i o n t o y o u is , h a d y o u r s u g g e s te d
p r i c e o f 3 4 .3 4 m i lli o n in c o r p o r a te d is s u e d r e l a ti n g t o fo r e x e s c a l a ti o n s
o r fo r e x – l e t m e j u s t – fo r e x a t a l l h a d it t a k e n i n t o c o n s id e r a ti o n fo r e x
fl u c t u a t i o n s a t a n y p o i n t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h e 3 4 . 4 m il li o n i f I m a y u s e th e

p h r a s e w a s a n “ o v e r t h e c o u n t e r ” p r ic e a s a t th e J u n e 2 0 1 3 w h e n I fir s t
d i d th is b u s i n e s s c a s e o r o n e o f th e v e r s i o n s o f t h is b u s i n e s s c a s e , th a t
w a s th e “ o v e r t h e c o u n t e r ” p r ic e o f th e l o c o m o ti v e , t h a t – j a w a s th e
20

“ o v e r t h e c o u n t e r ” p r ic e t h e n . Th e a d d i ti o n o f th e p h r a s e w h ic h w i ll b e
u s e d a s a g u i d e a s is d e p e n d e n t o n f o r e x f lu c t u a ti o n a d d s a u n c e r t a i n ty
a n d v a r i a b l e to t h e p r i c e w h ic h i s to t a l ly u n k n o w n a n d e n a b l e s o n e t o
s a y, w e ll it b e g s t h e q u e s ti o n , h o w m u c h i s t h is l o c o m o ti v e g o i n g t o
cost.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o a r e w e t o u n d e r s ta n d y o u t h a t i f a n d I u s e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a v e r y l o o s e p h r a s e , Tr a n s n e t w e r e t o g o s h o p p i n g a s a t t h e ti m e y o u
c a l c u l a te d 3 4 . 3 4 m i ll io n o v e r t h e c o u n t e r p u t t h e c a s h th e y w o u l d h a v e
r e c e i v e d a l o c o m o tiv e a t t h a t p r ic e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

A n d if t h e l o c o m o ti v e w a s t o b e a c q u ir e d ,

t h e s a m e l o c o m o tiv e , i n t h e fu t u r e a n d p a r ti c u la r ly o v e r a n e x t e n d e d
p e r i o d b e i n g a c q u ir e d in f o r e i g n c u r r e n c y t h e 3 4 . 3 4 w o u l d c h a n g e i n
ti m e t a k in g i n t o c o n s i d e r a t io n th e fo r e x f lu c t u a t i o n s ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
10

T h e 3 4 .3 4 i s m a d e u p o f t w o

c o m p o n e n ts .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

The local component and the

i m p o r t e d c o m p o n e n t . To a c q u ir e t h e lo c o m o t iv e i n t h e f u tu r e t h e p r i c e
w i ll c h a n g e , th e l o c a l c o m p o n e n t w i ll b e e s c a la t e d b y f a c t o r s C P I ,
c o n s u m e r p r ic e in d e x a n d s i m il a r t y p e f a c t o r s , h o p e t o a d d r e s s t h a t
la t e r. T h e f o r e i g n c o m p o n e n t w il l b e a ff e c t e d b y tw o fa c t o r s , p r i m a r i ly
t h e r a t e o f e x c h a n g e e i th e r t h e r a n d /d o l la r i f i t i s a d o l la r b a s e d
lo c o m o t iv e r a n d /y e n i f it w a s J a p a n e s e o r w h a t e v e r c u r r e n c y is u s e d fo r
t h is s u p p l y a n d th e e s c a la t io n in t h e f o r e ig n c o u n tr y, i n th e o v e r s e a s
20

c o u n tr y. Ty p i c a ll y t h o u g h t h a t is a v e r y s m a ll c o m p o n e n t U n i t e d S t a t e s
e s c a l a t io n w a s l e s s t h a n 2 % s o i t h a d a n e g l ig i b l e e ff e c t o n t h e p r i c e o f
t h e lo c o m o t iv e . M a jo r f a c t o r s b e i n g th e r a t e o f e x c h a n g e o n t h e fo r e ig n
c o m p o n e n t a n d S o u th A f r ic a n – a n d th e C P I e s c a la t io n o n t h e lo c a l
component.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o w o u ld it b e a f a i r c o n c l u s i o n th a t o n th e

Page 98 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
r e a d in g o f t h is p a r a g r a p h t h e p r o p o s a l a c c e p t e d th e p r ic e o f 3 4 . 3 4 i t
a d d e d th a t – e x c e p t t h a t , th a t 3 4 . 3 4 w o u ld b e s u b je c t to fo r e x – a n y
f o r e x fl u c t u a t io n s g o i n g f o r w a r d , w o u l d w e b e in t e r p r e t i n g t h a t p h r a s e
c o r r e c t ly, s o

t h e o n ly t h i n g – o n l y fa c to r t h a t w o u l d c h a n g e o r a ffe c t

t h e 3 4 . 3 4 m il li o n w o u l d b e th e fo r e x f lu c tu a ti o n ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

S o r r y i f I’ m n o t a n s w e r i n g y o u r

q u e s t io n p e r h a p s d ir e c tl y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
MR
10

FRANCIS

QUENTIN

T h a t’s f in e .
C A L LA R D :

The

statement

in

fact

is

in c o m p l e t e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Because we used as a guide

d e p e n d a n t o n f o r e x f lu c t u a ti o n a n d it ’s e x c lu d in g t h e l o c a l e s c a l a ti o n i t
d o e s n o t q u a li fy w h e r e i t ’s c o m in g fr o m i t is h a l f a n a d d it i o n i t i s n o t a
t o t a l c o m p o n e n t a t th is p r ic e i t j u s t i n tr o d u c e s a n e l e m e n t o f a m b ig u i t y
a r o u n d th is p r ic e w h ic h I c a n n o t q u a n t if y t o o f w h a t t h e a u t h o r w a s
t h i n k i n g o f w h e n h e p u t h is p r i c e i n – w h e n h e p u t t h is s t a te m e n t o n t o
t h is p r i c e . T h is p r i c e w a s g i v e n a s a n “ o v e r th e c o u n t e r ” p r ic e ,
s h o p p in g p r ic e fo r l o c o m o ti v e a t t h a t p a r ti c u la r p o in t i n ti m e .
20

If you

w a n t t o t a lk t o t h e p r i c e v a r i a ti o n s o n e h a s t o b e c o m p l e te i n o n e ’s
t a l k in g t o t h e p r ic e e s c a l a t i o n s n o t ju s t a s i n g l e c o m p o n e n t, s o i t
in tr o d u c e s a n e l e m e n t o f a m b i g u i ty b u t I c a n ’ t t a lk to . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

B u t th e p o in t I s e e k to m a k e is t h a t th is w a s

going to the BADC.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .

Page 99 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :
w h a t ’s c o m m u n ic a te d

Ar e w e c o r r e c t i n o u r i n t e r p r e ta t io n th a t

to the

BADC is

th a t i t ’s

3 4 . 3 4 m il li o n p e r

lo c o m o t iv e s u b je c t o n l y t o fo r e x f lu c tu a ti o n o n it s r e a d i n g .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

T h a t is – o n i ts b a s e r e a d i n g

t h a t ’s w h a t ’s g o in g to t h e B A D C y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

O n it s b a s e r e a d i n g t h a t ’s w h a t’s

going to BADC yes.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

N o w w e h a v e d e a l t th e n w i t h y o u r is s u e s

r a i s e d i n 4 0 .1 to 4 0 . 6 a n d o v e r le a f a t 1 0 y o u h a v e 4 0 . 7 – p a r a g r a p h
4 0 . 7 a n d f o r th a t y o u w a n t u s t o r e f e r to th e s a m e A n n e x u r e a t t y p e d
p a g e 2 0 a n d C h a i r t h a t w il l b e p a g e 2 0 6 o f th e r e c o r d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Page 206 ja.

A n d y o u w a n t e d t o d r a w t h e C h a ir ’s

a tt e n ti o n t o s o m e th i n g in p a r tic u la r a t 2 0 6 .
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

Fo r g iv e m e if th a t is t h e c o r r e c t

r e fe r e n c e I t h o u g h t p a g e 2 0 w a s c h a n g e d a s f o ll o w s , p l e a s e b e a r w i t h
m e a m o m e n t w h i le I j u s t p i c k th a t o n e u p .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

O k a y, h a v e y o u g iv e n a w r o n g r e fe r e n c e ?

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It s e e m s …
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Could – please have regard to page 198.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : R i g h t . It is …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t 6 2 a t th e b o t t o m .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is p a g e 1 2 s o r r y p a g e 1 9 8 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . T h a t is 1 9 8 .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P a g e 1 9 8 m y a p o l o g i e s
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h a t is a w r o n g r e fe r e n c e .

If I

m a y t a l k t o th a t th e n my p a r a g r a p h 4 0 .7 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W h ic h t a l k s t o t h e h e a d i n g E x t e n d
t o c u r r e n t 2 0 E c o n tr a c t fo r 9 5 C S R lo c o m o tiv e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I d id n o t p ic k t h a t u p . T h a t s h o u ld
10

r e a d r e fe r e n c e d t o p a g e 1 2 w h ic h is a t – w h i c h i s p a g e 1 9 8 a t t h e
bottom of page 198.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Oh 198, 198 yes.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Tu r n i n g t o t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 9 8
w h e n u n d e r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o p ti o n s I m e n t io n e d p r e v i o u s ly t h a t w e
id e n t i fi e d t h e n e e d t h e n w e e x p l o r e d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o p t i o n s .

T h is

p r o c u r e m e n t o p ti o n w a s e x p l o r i n g e x te n d t h e c u r r e n t 2 0 E c o n tr a c t f o r
9 5 C S R l o c o m o tiv e s . I m e n ti o n e d t h e s e a r e t h e l o c o m o t iv e s o n o r d e r.
I e x p la i n t h e r e t h a t th e c u r r e n t – t h e 2 0 E c u r r e n tly o n o r d e r is a 2 2
t o n n e a x il p e r G F E l o c o m o tiv e a n d is n o t in t e n d e d f o r a h e a v y u s e o n
20

t h e c o a l e x p o r t li n e . T h a t p h r a s e h a s b e e n d e le t e d .

W e tu r n o v e r t o

p a g e 1 9 9 . I h a d – w e h a d f u r th e r w r i t t e n : T h e f ir s t d e liv e r y is a w a i t e d
t h e l o c o m o t iv e h a s s ti ll to b e t e s t e d a n d i s a t p r e s e n t u n p r o v e n . O n l y
a ft e r e x t e n s i v e t y p e t e s t in g w i ll i t b e p o s s i b l e t o s a y w h e t h e r a n d t o
w h a t e x t e n t i t c a n r e p l ic a te t h e h e a v y h a u l c a p a b i li ti e s o n th e 1 9 E .
T h a t q u a l i fic a ti o n h a s b e e n r e m o v e d i m p o r t a n t ly. A n d th a t w i th o u t t h a t

Page 101 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
q u a li fi c a t io n m a y l e a d a r e a d e r u n f a mi li a r w i t h l o c o m o ti v e s t o s a y w e l l
thank

you

we

can

just

e x te n d

to

CSR

95.

Would

lead

that

u n d e r s t a n d in g to a r e a d e r u n f a m il ia r w it h l o c o m o ti v e c h a r a c t e r is t ic s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d d o e s i t n o t g o fu r t h e r Mr C a ll a r d i n a

s e n s e t h a t y o u s t a te d i n th e o r i g i n a l d o c u m e n t t h a t t h e 2 0 E c u r r e n tly
o n o r d e r is a 2 2 to n n e p e r a x i l l o c o m o ti v e , r ig h t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d i t i s n o t i n te n d e d f o r h e a v y h a u l ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 1 9 8 .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A t 1 9 9 i t s t a t e s th e f ir s t d e li v e r y is a w a it e d

t h e lo c o m o t iv e h a s s t il l t o b e t e s t e d a n d i s a t p r e s e n t u n p r o v e n . W h e n
y o u d e le t e t h e t w o s t a t e m e n ts I h a v e r e a d t h e e ff e c t is to c o n c e a l f r o m
t h e r e a d e r th a t t h e 2 2 t o n n e p e r a x il l o c o m o t iv e i s – h a s n o t y e t b e e n
d e li v e r e d a n d i s y e t t o b e t e s te d a n d it p r e s e n t ly r e m a i n s u n p r o v e n , is
that not the case?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . T h e s e s t a t e m e n ts
w e r e in h e r e s p e c i fic a lly b e c a u s e t h e y s p o k e t o th e p r o c u r e m e n t
c o n fi n e m e n t c o n d it i o n s w h ic h w a s t o s a y w h y w e c o u l d n o t c o n fi n e it to
CSR.
20

D e l e t i n g t h e s e s t a te m e n ts h i d e s , d is g u i s e s t h a t f a c t fr o m t h e

r e a d e r a n d m i g h t l e a d a r e a d e r t o p r e s u m e th a t c o n fi n e m e n t t o C S R i s
in o r d e r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. C a n w e m o v e o n t h e n t o y o u p a r a g r a p h
4 1 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d f o l lo w in g ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

O n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 I t a lk t h a t th e

b a s e p r ic e o f t h e l o c o m o ti v e w a s g iv e n in J a p a n e s e Ye n .

Page 102 of 200

Th is is

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
b e c a u s e M i ts u i M a r s w a s a J a p a n e s e b a s e d c o m p a n y a n d o b v i o u s l y o u r
r a te o f e x c h a n g e w a s g i v e n i n to th a t l o c o m o t io n w a s g iv e n i n J a p a n e s e
Ye n . W i th t h i s c o n fi n e m e n t t o C S R a l l th e fi n a n c i a l c o n s i d e r a t io n s a n d
d is c u s s io n s i n a m e m o r a n d u m w e r e s ti ll le f t i n J a p a n e s e Ye n .

So it

w a s m o s t u n u s u a l t o m e t h a t y o u a r e n o w c h a n g i n g t h e l o c o m o t iv e , y o u
c h a n g in g th e c o u n tr y o f s u p p l y fr o m c h a n g in g t h e c o u n tr y o f s u p p l y o n e
w o u ld c h a n g e t h e fo r e ig n e x c h a n g e r a te w h i c h w o u l d b e a p p l ic a b l e
w h ic h w a s n o w fr o m Ye n t o D o ll a r b u t t h e m e m o r a n d u m p e r s e w a s n o t
c h a n g e d a t a ll w h ic h i m p l i e s t h a t I c a n o n ly s a y t h a t d u e th o u g h t w a s
10

n o t g iv e n t o t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m w i th a f u ll u n d e r s t a n d in g
o f i ts i m p li c a t io n s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO : Now the memorandum you provided when you
w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o w o r k m ir a c l e s y o u p r o v i d e d o n M o n d a y t h e 2 1 s t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h e c h a n g e d m e m o r a n d u m c o m e s b a c k to y o u
on Wednesday the 23rd?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 1 s t , 2 2 n d , 2 3 r d c o r r e c t .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

In b e t w e e n t h e ti m e y o u s u b m i t t e d t h e

m e m o r a n d u m a s r e q u e s t e d a n d r e c e ip t o f t h e c h a n g e d m e m o r a n d u m
20

w e r e a n y c o n s u l t a t i o n s h a d w i th y o u – w e r e y o u e n g a g e d i n a n y f o r m
r e g a r d in g th e s e c h a n g e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D : N o n e w h a t s o e v e r. R e c e ip t o f th is
m e m o r a n d u m – r e c e i p t o f th e r e v is e d m e m o r a n d u m o n th e W e d n e s d a y
m o r n in g w a s th e f ir s t I b e c a m e a w a r e t h e f ir s t ti m e I b e c a m e a w a r e o f
t h e s e c h a n g e s . T h e r e w a s n o c o n s u l ta t io n w i th m e o r a s f a r a s I c o u ld

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
e s t a b li s h w i t h a n y o f m y t e c h n ic a l c o l le a g u e s w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d in
lo c o m o t iv e s . T h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e m a y a s w e ll f in d o u t n o w w h o y o u u n d e r s to o d
t o b e th e o n e w h o m a d e t h e d e c is io n th a t t h e r e m u s t b e t h e s e c h a n g e s
to your memorandum?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I c a n n o t ta lk M r C h a ir t o w h o m a d e
t h e d e c i s i o n w h e t h e r i t w a s a n i n d iv id u a l o r a g r o u p .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e r e i s a tr a c e o f e m a i ls .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

B e tw e e n m y s e l f a n d v a r io u s

parties.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In c l u d in g G a r r y P i ta .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L LA R D :

T h a t in d i c a t e v e r y s tr o n g l y –

s u g g e s t I th in k o v e r w h e l m i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t G a r r y P i t a w a s t h e a u th o r o f
20

t h e r e v is e d d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I f I m a y r e f e r y o u o n th a t s c o r e ?

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD : Please to Annexure – sorry to the
p r e v i o u s o n e , t h e o r i g in a l r e v i s e d d o c u m e n t w h ic h i s – c o u l d w e g o t o

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
o n e p a g e 1 6 1 p le a s e ?
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : We are at 161.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : P a g e 1 6 1 is th e r e v is e d d o c u m e n t
t h a t I r e c e iv e d o n t h e m o r n i n g o f W e d n e s d a y t h e 2 2 n d . I f w e lo o k a t t h e
b o t t o m le f t h a n d c o r n e r o f t h a t d o c u m e n t , th e f o o t e r o f th a t i s , Va d ic
1 8 0 r e v is e d v e r s i o n 1 5 r e c a ll th a t I s e n t i n v e r s i o n 1 4 1 0 2 0 G P d o c e x .
A n d i t is a c o m m o n p r a c ti c e t h a t w e h a v e t h a t i f w e a r e r e v i s i n g a
d o c u m e n t o r w e i d e n ti f y a d o c u m e n t b y in it i a ls .
10

I c o n te n d fr o m t h e

e m a i ls w h ic h w e h a d d is tr i b u te d w h i c h i n c lu d e d Mr G a r r y P i ta w i t h h is
in it i a ls h e r e t h a t h e w a s t h e a u t h o r o f t h i s d o c u m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Th e r e v is e d d o c u m e n t .

I cannot

s a y t h a t it w a s h is in s t r u c t i o n , h is i d e a .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c a n n o t s a y b u t I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Yo u c a n n o t s a y w h e t h e r i t w a s h i s d e c i s i o n
o r h e w a s g iv i n g e ff e c t t o s o m e b o d y e ls e ’s d e c is i o n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c a n n o t s a y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ja .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c a n n o t s a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t y o u a r e s a y in g t h e l e tt e r s G P a t th e b o t to m o f

that page refer to Mr Garry Pita as far as you are concerned?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : E v e r y tr a il o f e v id e n c e a n d l o g ic i n
t h e e m a i ls o f w h o i t is b e i n g c o m m u n i c a t e d to a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n s I h a d

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
h a d w i t h t h e i n d iv i d u a ls h i g h l ig h t t h a t i t w a s o r p o in t t o G a r r y P it a
b e i n g t h e a u t h o r o f t h i s d o c u m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O f t h e p e o p l e w it h w h o m y o u w e r e s h a r i n g t h i s
m e m o r a n d a w a s t h e r e a n y o n e o t h e r th a n M r G a r r y P i t a w h o h a d th e
in it i a ls G P ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o .
CHAIRPERSON : He was the only one?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : H e w a s t h e o n ly o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y th a n k y o u .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And if I may then enquire – rehashing a bit

w h a t w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h . A n d y o u r e c e iv e d t h e r e w o r k e d v e r s io n fr o m
M s L i n d i w e M d l e t s h e a s p e r y o u r a n n e x u r e F C 7 , is t h a t c o r r e c t? T h a t
w i ll b e a t p a g e 1 5 8 . S o m u c h a s i t b e a r s t h e i n i t ia ls o f Mr G a r r y P i t a a t
t h e b o t to m t o i d e n t if y th e f il e t h e a c t u a l d o c u m e n t is r e c e iv e d b y y o u
fr o m M s L i n d iw e M d le t s h e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t . C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : N o w c o u l d y o u i n d ic a te t o t h e C h a i r i f y o u d o
k n o w w h e th e r M s M d l e e ts h e w a s a s u b o r d in a te o f M r P i t a o r w h a t th e ir
p r o f e s s i o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a t i o n ?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

M r G a r r y P i ta a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t

a n d r e c a l l w a s a t t h a t t i m e th e G r o u p C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ffic e r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR

FRANCIS

QUENTIN

CALLARD :

Mr

Thamsanqa

Tr a n s n e t’s Fr e i g h t R a il s C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r.

G ia n i

was

Tr a n s n e t Fr e i g h t

R a il a s a n o p e r a ti n g d iv is io n o f Tr a n s n e t. E a c h o p e r a t in g d i v is i o n h a d

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
it s o w n C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r. I c a n n o t s a y e x p l ic it ly th e r e p o r ti n g
r e l a ti o n s h i p s b e tw e e n Mr G i a n i a n d M r S i y a b o n g a G a m a a s t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o b v io u s ly t h e r e w a s a h i e r a r c h y b e c a u s e th e y w e r e in
t h e o p e r a t io n a l d iv i s i o n .

However Group having a Group Chief

P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r h a d c e r t a in ly p o l i c y a n d o v e r s ig h t I b e l ie v e
a c c o u n t – a r o l e t o p l a y i n o v e r a ll p r o c u r e m e n t i t s e ts s t a n d a r d s f o r
p r o c u r e m e n t . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t w a s a f u l l li n e o r a d o t t e d l in e
r e l a ti o n s h i p i t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i t w a s a d o t t e d l in e r e l a t i o n s h ip
b e t w e e n Mr G a r r y P i t a a n d M r Th a m s a n q a G i a n i w h i l e M r T h a m s a n q a
10

G ia n i h a d a s o li d l in e r e la t io n s h i p t o Mr S iy a b o n g a G a m a .

T h a t is i n

[i n d is t in c t] . M s L i n d i w e M d l e ts h e w a s a c o n tr a c t m a n a g e r i n M r G i a n i ’s
o ffic e a n d s h e w a s t h e k e y g o t o p e r s o n if I c o u ld p u t i t f o r t h e 1 0 6 4
lo c o m o t iv e s a n d in f a c t a l l th e l o c o m o t iv e s t h a t w e w e r e d e a li n g w it h a l l
m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o l o c o m o t iv e s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

B u t b a s e d o n w h a t y o u s t a t e in y o u r

p a r a g r a p h 3 8 a t p a g e 9 a s t o w h o y o u c ir c u l a t e d y o u r o r i g i n a l v e r s io n
t o M r M d le ts h e w a s n o t o n e o f t h e a d d r e s s e e ’s t h e r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o s h e w a s n o t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

W o u ld y o u k n o w h o w s h e c a m e t o b e in

p o s s e s s i o n o n t h e d o c u m e n t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I c a n o n ly – i t w o u l d b e a r e a s o n e d
in f e r e n c e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u c a n n o t s a y. Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

That I – because I had sent

v e r s i o n s o f th e w o r d d o c u m e n t to M r A n o j S i n g h w h o h a d a n d I s a w

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
e m a i l e d – t h e e m a i l tr a i ls t h a t m y o r i g i n a l w o r d d o c u m e n t fr o m M r A n o j
S i n g h t o Mr P it a . I s e n t e a r li e r v e r s i o n fr o m t h e O c t o b e r v e r s i o n s t o M r
S i n g h . H e a ls o s e n t t h e m o n to M r P i ta . I h a d s e n t w o r d v e r s i o n s o f my
d o c u m e n t t o Mr T h a m s a n q a G i a n i a n d to M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a ’s o ff ic e . I
c a n n o t s a y I h a v e n o t tr a c e d h o w M s M d l e ts h e g o t t h i s v e r s i o n o f th e
document to send to me.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u d i d s a y e a r li e r o n t h a t th e r e w a s a p r a c tic e
t h a t y o u r n a m e o r in i ti a l s w o u l d a p p e a r a t th e b o t t o m o f a d o c u m e n t –
10

o f th e d o c u m e n t .

Now I do not know whether you said if you were

c o r r e c t in g a d o c u m e n t o r w h e th e r j u s t – a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts m a y b e t h e
o n e w h o c o m p i le d th a t is t h e n a m e t h a t – t h e i n it i a ls t h a t w o u l d a p p e a r
a t t h e b o t to m , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

I t w a s a p r a c t ic e w h ic h w a s n o t

u n iv e r s a lly e m p lo y e d Mr C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : B u t it w a s o f t e n e m p lo y e d . I f I g o t
a document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d I a m e n d e d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I w o u ld p u t m y i n i t ia ls a t t h e b a c k
o f t h e d o c u m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Th a t t h e o r ig i n a l a u th o r w o u ld

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
k n o w t h i s is m y v e r s io n a m e n d m e n t to t h e d o c u m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A n d t h a t w o u l d b e a t t h e b o t t o m o f a p a g e
in t h e s a m e w a y t h a t w e s e e G P a t p a g e 1 6 1 o n t h i s d o c u m e n t , is t h a t
in t h e s a m e w a y o r n o t?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t w o u l d g e n e r a l ly b e in t h e fi le

name.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

N o t a ll – i t w o u ld n o t a l w a y s

a p p e a r i n t h e d o c u m e n t i t w o u l d b e in t h e f il e n a m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I h a d t h e p r a c ti c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

B e c a u s e I w is h e d t o a l w a y s s e e

tr a c e a b il it y o f t h e d o c u m e n ts o f p u t ti n g th e d o c u m e n t fi le n a m e in t h e
b o t t o m le f t h a n d c o r n e r. Th a t w a s o n e o f m y o p e r a t i n g p r a c ti c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d s o c o m e s o u t h e r e th a t w e c a n
p ic k u p th e …
CHAIRPERSON :
20

B u t d o y o u – a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h e th e r Mr G a r r y

P i ta w a s a l s o in th e h a b i t o f p u t ti n g h i s i n it i a ls a t t h e b o t t o m o f a
document that he had put comments on or are you not able to say?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I c a n n o t s a y w h e t h e r h e w a s i n th e
h a b it o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t y e s j a .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C a n n o t s a y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t s o m e ti m e s h e d i d o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e e v e n
of that?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I – I c a n n o t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t s a y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c a n n o t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Th a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B u t t h e n t h e f il e n a m e w o u ld s u g g e s t th a t M r
G a r r y Pi t a d i d – e ff e c t e d th e a m e n d m e n ts j u s t l o o k in g a t t h e fi le p a th a t
the bottom.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B y i n c l u s i o n o f t h e i n i ti a ls G P ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : However you did receive this amended version
fr o m M r G a r r y P i ta y o u r e c e iv e d i t fr o m M s L i n d i w e M d l e t s h e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u . I f th e n w e m a y p r o c e e d a g a i n w e
a r e s t il l a t p a r a g r a p h 4 4 y o u – p a g e 1 0 m y a p o l o g ie s . Yo u h a v e n o w
e x e c u te d th e r e q u e s t o r th e i n s tr u c t io n g i v e n y o u b y M s M d l e ts h e a n d
t h a t y o u h a v e i n s e r t e d i n to t h e d o c u m e n t t h e p r o p o s a l , t h e s l i d e t h a t

20

s h e r e q u e s te d y o u t o d o a t p a g e 1 5 8 ?
CHAIRPERSON :

Just one second – one second.

B y t h e w a y d i d Mr

M d le t s h e s a y to y o u i n t h e e m a il w h e t h e r s h e h a d b e e n a s k e d b y
s o m e b o d y e ls e t o a s k y o u t o e ffe c t t h e c h a n g e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o i f w e g o b a c k t o 7
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Page 158?

Page 110 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Page 158.

W h ic h w a s t h e e m a il

fr o m M s M d l e ts h e . S h e j u s t s a i d :
“ H i F r a n c is , p le a s e s e e t h e a t t a c h e d s l i d e e v a l u a ti o n
m e t h o d o l o g y t h a t n e e d s t o b e in c o r p o r a t e d i n t h e
w o r d d o c u m e n ts u n d e r 8 4 .

P le a s e i n c o r p o r a t e t h e

c h a n g e s y o u d id la s t n ig h t .”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t w a s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n a b o u t t h e
f u n d a m e n t a l c h a n g e s t o th e d o c u m e n t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o th e p u r p o s e o f s h a r in g th e d o c u m e n t w i th
y o u w a s f o r y o u t o i n s e r t i n to t h e d o c u m e n t a s li d e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t w a s n o t fo r y o u t o e n g a g e w i t h t h e c h a n g e s
e ffe c t e d ?

20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

Yo u h a p p e n e d t o le a r n t h a t a s y o u w o r k e d

t h r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : One second. Thank you.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 111 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u c o n fi r m t h a t y o u d i d in s e r t t h e s li d e
a n d y o u s a y y o u d i d – d i d y o u a li g n th e d o c u m e n t I t h i n k y o u m e n ti o n e d
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P e r h a p s j u s t t o g iv e c o n t e x t to h o w
t h is a r o s e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I u s e a v e r y s tr u c tu r e d f o r m a t o f

w o r d to c o m p i l e a d o c u m e n t . I f o n e i s u n f a m il ia r w i t h t h e i n tr ic a c i e s o f
10

w o r d – o f w o r d d o c u m e n ts o f s h o r tc u t c u t k e y s a n d s t y l e s a n d s ty le
h e a d i n g s t o a c h i e v e a c o n s is te n t lo o k a n d f e e l t h r o u g h th e d o c u m e n t i t
is v e r y d i ffi c u l t f o r a n o t h e r p e r s o n t o e ff e c t t h o s e c h a n g e s n e a t ly in t h e
document.

Th a t i s w h y M s – M s M d l e ts h e c o u l d n o t i n c o r p o r a t e th e

d o c u m e n t w i th o u t m a y I s a y m e s s in g u p t h e e n ti r e l o o k a n d f e e l .

So

t h e e a s i e s t t h i n g f o r h e r t o d o a n d t h is i s a v e r y r e a s o n e d i n f e r e n c e :
Fr a n c i s y o u r d o c u m e n t – h e r e is a s l i d e p l e a s e fix i t u p . A n d t h a t is
w h y s h e s e n t i t to m e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y n o w – a n d y o u e ff e c t e d t h o s e c h a n g e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I e ff e c t e d t h o s e c h a n g e s y e s .
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 3 8 n o w le t u s r e tr a c e a
b i t . Yo u w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o w o r k m ir a c l e s . Yo u d i d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

To g e t h e r w it h y o u r t e a m a n d y o u s a y a t 3 8

t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d a r e v is e d v e r s i o n i n P D F fo r m a t t o Mr G a m a ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .

Page 112 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u g o f u r t h e r to s a y y o u t h e n p r o v id e d a

w o r d v e r s io n t o Mr G a m a ’s PA , M r Si n g h ’s PA a n d to M r T h a m s a n q a
G ia n i ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O n Tu e s d a y y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h y d i d y o u p r o v i d e th e P D F v e r s i o n i n th e

o n e h a n d a n d t h e n y o u p r o v i d e d t h e w o r d v e r s i o n t o t h o s e PA’s o n t h e
o th e r h a n d ?
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

I t is g e n e r a lly c o m m o n p r a c t ic e .

H a v i n g w o r k e d o n a d o c u m e n t lik e t h i s o v e r t h e w e e k e n d t h e r e w e r e
10

g o i n g t o b e in e v i ta b ly c h a n g e s th a t n e e d e d t o b e m a d e . I c o u l d n o t s a y
c a t e g o r ic a l ly t h a t I h a d e ff e c te d e v e r y th i n g o r th a t t h e d o c u m e n t w a s
p e r f e c t in e v e r y w a y a n d i f s o m e b o d y n e e d e d to c o r r e c t a s p e l li n g , d o t
a n I , c r o s s a t , t h a t is w h a t y o u n e e d t h e w o r d d o c u m e n t f o r
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d I c ir c u l a t e d t h e w o r d d o c u m e n t
a s w id e ly a s p o s s i b l e t o Mr G a m a a n d M r S i n g h t h a t w o u ld h a v e – th a t
w a s j u s t s t a n d a r d p r a c ti c e b e c a u s e I k n e w t h e y w a n t e d i t .

I cannot

r e c a l l w h e t h e r i t w a s a r e q u e s t o r t o s e n d it t o M r G i a n i . I a m s u r e it
w a s b e c a u s e o th e r w i s e I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h y I w o u l d h a v e s e n t i t o n t h e
20

Tu e s d a y. I a m s u r e it w a s a r e q u e s t t o s e n d i t to h i m . B u t I m u s t a d m i t
I d i d n o t t h in k a n y t h in g a b o u t it b e c a u s e w h e n w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h
d o c u m e n ts l ik e th a t in a c o ll a b o r a t iv e f o r m a t o n e s h a r e s t h e w o r d
f o r m a t o th e r w i s e y o u a r e f o r c i n g e v e r y c h a n g e t o c o m e b a c k t o y o u a s
a n in d iv i d u a l a n d y o u c a n b e a b o t tl e n e c k f o r th e c h a n g e s a n d a .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . N o w …

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a s o it is a c o ll a b o r a t iv e e ff o r t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I t a k e i t t h is w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n y o u r f ir s t

p r o p o s a l w it h in t h e o r g a n is a t i o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o n o t a t a l l .
ADV MAHLAPE S ELLO:

I n t h e p a s t w h e n y o u f in a lis e d a d o c u m e n t

a n d y o u s e n t i t o u t to th o s e m u s t r e c e iv e i t a n d th e y m a k e c h a n g e s a r e
t h e s e f in a l c h a n g e s o r a r e th e y p r o p o s e d c h a n g e s ? W h a t s u b s e q u e n tl y
h a p p e n s r e g a r d in g e n g a g e m e n t w i t h y o u o n t h e s u g g e s t e d c h a n g e s ?
O r i s i t a c a s e o f y o u fo r w a r d s i t , c h a n g e s a r e m a d e a n d th a t b e c o m e s
10

t h e fi n a l d o c u m e n t , w h a t i s t h e s ta n d a r d p r a c ti c e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M a y I a n s w e r t h a t i t d e p e n d s . A n d
it d e p e n d s o n t h e n a t u r e o f t h e c h a n g e s .

There was one document

w h ic h I h a d a n d i t w a s s i g n e d b y M r G a m a s a i d f o r w a r d , g r o u p c a m e
b a c k a n d s a i d w e h a v e ta k e n o u t h is s ig n a tu r e p le a s e r e s e n d t h e
d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e t h e y o n ly w a n te d i t s i g n e d i f I u n d e r s ta n d c o r r e c t ly
by Mr Singh and Mr Molefe.

T h a t is fi n e , t h a n k y o u .

Th a t is a n

a d m i n is tr a t iv e c h a n g e o r t h e r e m i g h t b e a s p e ll in g c o r r e c t io n o r o n e o r
two things.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D : I f t h e r e w a s a s u b s ta n ti v e c h a n g e
t o t h e m e a n i n g o f t h e d o c u m e n t o r a f la w in t h e a r g u m e n t o r t h e ta b le s
o r t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s t h e n it w o u l d h a v e c o m e b a c k to m e a n d t h e y w o u l d
h a v e s a id p l e a s e fix .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w in t h e e v e n t y o u d o n o t a g r e e w it h t h o s e
s u b s t a n t iv e c h a n g e s w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n ?

Page 114 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h is w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t t h is

happened.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d I ta k e i t y o u d id n o t a g r e e w i t h t h e

a m e n d m e n ts m a d e t o y o u r p r o p o s a l ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I l o o k e d a t t h is a n d I m u s t a d mi t I
w a s ta k e n a b a c k b y t h e s e a m e n d m e n t s a n d I s a i d t h is w i ll n o t w o r k .
W h e n I r e a d t h i s r e v is e d d o c u m e n t t h r o u g h a l l t h e a r g u m e n ts w h ic h w e
h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h h e r e I s a i d t h i s is n o t r ig h t , t h i s is f l a w e d , it i s
fl a w e d i n t h i n k i n g a n d i t i s f la w e d i n e x e c u ti o n i t w a s m y …
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Wa s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f M s M d l e ts h e ’s e m a i l to

y o u i n r e g a r d t o th e s e c h a n g e s t h a t a ll t h a t w a s c o n t e m p l a t e d w a s t h a t
y o u j u s t e ff e c t e d t h e c h a n g e s a s o p p o s e d to c o n s i d e r th e m a n d l e t u s
h e a r w h a t y o u h a v e to s a y i f y o u h a v e a n y v ie w s o n t h e m ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t . M s M d l e ts h e I –
s e n t i t t o m e ju s t t o e x e c u te t h o s e c h a n g e s a n d s e n d it b a c k to h e r a n d
t h a t w a s a ll s h e c o n t e m p l a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A n d t h a t is w h a t y o u d id ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s w h a t I d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
20

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

O k a y n o w b y – a t t h i s ju n c t u r e y o u h a v e

a p p li e d y o u r m i n d t o t h e w h o le d o c u m e n t a n d t h e c h a n g e s e ffe c t e d a n d
fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 4 a t p a g e 9 y o u s t a te w h a t y o u t h e n d i d h a v in g l e a r n t
o f t h e s e s i g n i fi c a n t c h a n g e s m a d e t o y o u r d o c u m e n t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P l e a s e t e ll th e C h a ir.

Page 115 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

If I m a y ?

As I said I was taken

b a c k b y t h e s e u n i la t e r a l c h a n g e s t h a t w a s th e W e d n e s d a y.

I had

a lr e a d y s a i d i t w a s p r io r a u th o r is e d I w a s n o t c o n s u l t e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I did not know what to make of

t h e s e c h a n g e s I d e li b e r a te d lo n g a n d h a r d . I s l e p t o n i t . O n Th u r s d a y
a ft e r n o o n I e m a i l M r G a m a a n d M r G i a n i e x p r e s s i n g m y c o n c e r n a t
t h e s e u n il a te r a l c h a n g e s i n t h is b u s i n e s s c a s e m e m o r a n d u m .

In

r e s p e c t o f t h e 1 9 E – t h a t i t i m p li e d r e a d i n g o f th e r e v is e d b u s in e s s
10

c a s e t h a t t h i s w a s c h a n g i n g a 1 9 E t y p e h e a v y h a u l l o c o m o ti v e t o a n
u n s p e c i fi e d g e n e r a l fr e i g h t lo c o m o t iv e t o b e a w a r d e d t o C S R . A n d t h a t
e m a i l is in A n n e x u r e 9 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d i f w e g o t h e n tu r n t o A n n e x u r e 9 t h a t w il l
b e a t y o u r p a g e 2 1 6 . P a g e 2 1 6 C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . Ye s w e th e r e . W e
f o u n d t h e e m a il .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W o u l d y o u l ik e m e t o r e a d it o r t a lk
t o i t?
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I w o u ld l ik e y o u to t a l k to i t a n d i f t h e r e i s

a n y th in g in p a r tic u la r y o u w o u ld li k e t o r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d y o u m a y d o
20

so.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I f I m a y t h e n t a lk t o i t b e c a u s e t h e
e m a i l is in t h e r e c o r d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

O b v i o u s ly I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t o

d o a n d I p r e f a c e d t h is – th is is a d i ffi c u l t e m a i l t o w r i t e a n d I n o ti c e d

Page 116 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h e c h a n g e s a n d I h ig h li g h t th a t t h e r e w a s a s ig n if ic a n t r is k i n t h e s e
c h a n g e s . I p o i n t o u t t h a t t h e c h a n g e s e ff e c t e d p r o j e c t S h o n g o l o l o a n d
P r o je c t S h o n g o l o l o w a s a p r o j e c t w h ic h M r Pr a g a s e n P i ll a y w a s t h e
n a m e w h ic h w e h a d g iv e n t o t h is p r o je c t f o r t h e o p t i m is a ti o n o f th e
o p e r a ti o n s o n t h e c o a l li n e w h ic h w a s d e p e n d e n t o n s t a n d a r d is in g h is
fl e e t w i th t h e 1 9 E lo c o m o tiv e s w e h a d j u s t g i v e n – i t h a d th is n a m e
P r o je c t S h o n g o l o l o a n d i t w o u l d h a v e i m p r o v e d v e r y – m a n y o f t h e
o p e r a ti o n a l a s p e c t s o f t h e c o a l li n e . I p o in t o u t t h e c h a r a c t e r i s tic s o f
t h e 1 9 E lo c o m o t iv e s , t h e 2 2 t o n n e s p e r a x i l a n d t h e ir p o w e r a n d h o w
10

t h e y i n te r c o m m u n ic a t e w it h e a c h o t h e r. I f I m a y s tr e s s a n d ju s t p o i n t
o u t t h a t th e lo c o m o t iv e s o p e r a t e in w h a t w e c a l l a c o n s is t , m a n y tr a i n s .
Yo u c o u p l e a n u m b e r o f l o c o m o ti v e s to g e t h e r to g e t th e r e q u is it e p o w e r
t o h a u l th e tr a i n .

F o r th e s e l o c o m o t iv e s to o p e r a t e i n a c o n s i s t t h e y

n e e d to t a l k t o e a c h o t h e r. T h e y n e e d to t a lk a c o m m o n l a n g u a g e o v e r
a s e t o f w ir e s w h i c h in t e r c o n n e c t s th e l o c o m o t iv e .

These 19 E

lo c o m o t iv e s u s e d a To s h i b a T I n te r n e t c a p a b il it y b u t t h a t ju s t ta lk s t o
t h e l a n g u a g e t h a t t h e y s p o k e i n t h e l o c o m o tiv e s . I h ig h li g h t e d th a t t h is
b u s i n e s s c a s e a s m o d i fi e d d i d n o t e x p l ic it ly s p e c i fi e d t h e l o c o m o t iv e
b u t I u s e d t h e p h r a s e i f a c u r r e n t a n d d e liv e r e d d e s ig n is t h e c r i t e r ia
20

t h e n i t i s t h e 2 0 E b e c a u s e th a t w a s a ll w e h a d f r o m C S R . A n d t h e n I
h i g h l ig h te d w h y t h a t l o c o m o ti v e w o u ld n o t m e e t th e r e q u ir e m e n t s
b e c a u s e i t i s a 2 2 t o n n e p e r a x il it h a s l e s s p o w e r a n d it w a s s p e c i fi e d
a s a g e n e r a l fr e i g h t l o c o m o ti v e f o r a ll t h o s e r e a s o n s .

Furthermore I

h i g h l ig h te d t h e lo c o m o t iv e s c a n n o t i n t e r o p e r a t e w i t h t h e 1 9 E u n l e s s w e
a c h i e v e s o m e s ta n d a r d i n te r o p e r a ti o n a l c a p a b il i ty w h ic h w o u l d c o s t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s o m e a d d i ti o n a l a m o u n t o f m o n e y.

I t h e n f u r th e r w e n t o n t o s a y t h a t

a n d ta lk t o a n a s p e c t o f l o c o d e s i g n . I s a id th e n e w lo c o s a r e a c o k o
d e s i g n a n d i t w o u ld h a v e a f u r t h e r i m p lic a t io n i n t h e – i n t h e d e s i g n a n d
t e s ti n g .

I t h e n a ls o s p o k e to c o n c e r n s a r o u n d Tr a n s n e t E n g in e e r i n g

a n d t h e i r a s s e m b ly o f l o c o m o ti v e s b e c a u s e t h e y h a d n o t y e t p r o d u c e d a
2 0 E lo c o m o t iv e a n d t h i s w o u l d c o m e a f t e r w a r d s e s s e n ti a lly I j u s t l is te d
a w h o l e r a n g e o f c o n d i ti o n s a s t o w h y t h i s w a s n o t g o in g to w o r k .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e s e f a c t o r s y o u lis t a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h
4 6 a t p a g e 11 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

Ye s t h e y a r e h ig h li g h t e d in

paragraph 46.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h is e m a il is d ir e c t e d t o Mr S i y a b o n g a

G a m a a n d Mr T h a m s a n q a G i a n i ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W h a t th e n t r a n s p i r e d a f t e r y o u s e n t t h i s e m a il ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : L a t e r th a t a f t e r n o o n I g o t a p h o n e
c a l l fr o m M r G ia n i t o t h e e ff e c t o f , w h y d id I s e n d t h is e m a i l?

And I

s a i d , b e c a u s e t h e s e l o c o m o ti v e s w il l n o t w o r k . T h a t w a s t h e s u b s ta n c e
o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t t h a t fr o m th e e m a i l i t is c le a r
t h a t y o u w e r e g iv i n g th e m t h e b e n e fi t o f y o u r c o n c e r n s s o t h a t t h e y
know you have certain concerns?
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

T h e e x a c t p o i n t M r C h a ir.

The

c o n v e r s a ti o n d i d n o t a d d r e s s a n y o f t h e t e c h n ic a l o r s u b s t a n tiv e p o i n ts
t h a t I h a d r a is e d n o w i n m y e m a i l. I t w a s a n d p l e a s e I p a r a p h r a s e t h i s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a ft e r m a n y y e a r s b u t i t is c o l le c t iv e l y b u r n t i n m y m e m o r y. W h y d id y o u
s e n d t h i s e m a il ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d i d y o u te ll h i m ? Yo u s h o u l d h a v e to l d h i m
it is c le a r fr o m t h e e m a i l I a m e x p r e s s i n g m y c o n c e r n s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W h a t – I s a id t h e y w il l n o t w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : A n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e c o n v e r s a t io n
e ffe c t iv e l y e n d e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

D id y o u r e c e iv e a r e s p o n s e to y o u r e m a il a t

p a g e 2 1 6 ? A fo r m a l r e s p o n s e t o t h e is s u e s y o u h a d r a is e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o t fr o m M r G i a n i .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : D id y o u r e c e iv e a r e s p o n s e fr o m M r G a m a ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s I r e c e i v e d a r e s p o n s e fr o m M r
G a m a a n d I a d d r e s s th a t o n
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a g e 11 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Is it an email you received or a – or what did

y o u r e c e iv e fr o m …
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

N o I r e c e iv e d – i t c o m e s l a t e r. I

r e c e i v e d a s m s fr o m G a m a a n d i t is i te m p a r a 6 4 o n p a g e 1 3 . B u t t h e
i m p l ic a t i o n s t h a t I w o u l d – p e r h a p s y o u h a v e s o m e th in g s b e f o r e t h a t
before we get there?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : B u t t o m y q u e s ti o n w h e th e r y o u r e c e iv e d a n y
response by email as you had sent out this email.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o , n o .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Fr o m e i t h e r o f t h e r e c i p ie n ts t h e a n s w e r is

no?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o . N o e m a il r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON : Let me go
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Fo r m a l r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON :

L e t m e g o b a c k t o y o u r l a s t c o n v e r s a t io n , t e l e p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h M r G ia n i . D i d y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o w h a t
t h e b a s is o f h i s c o m p l a i n t w a s a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e s e n t t h i s
10

e m a i l to h i m a n d M r G a m a ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L LA R D : N o t a t t h e ti m e . O n ly l a te r. W h e n
o n e c o n n e c t e d t h e d o ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a s f a r a s y o u k n e w t h e n w a s t h e r e a n y t h i n g th a t
p r e c l u d e d y o u fr o m s e n d in g a n y t h i n g d i r e c tl y t o M r G a m a a n d Mr G i a n i
if y o u h a d – y o u w a n t e d t o c o n v e y s o m e th in g ? D id y o u h a v e t o g o v ia
s o m e b o d y e ls e o r a n y th i n g lik e th a t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

N o n o t a t a ll .

T h e n a tu r e o f my

w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h i p p a r ti c u l a r l y i n t h e s e b u s i n e s s c a s e s a n d th e li k e I
h a d m a y I s a y fr e e a c c e s s to M r G a m a , M r S in g h , Mr P i ta , M r G i a n a . I
20

h a d f r e e a c c e s s v ir t u a l ly t o e v e r y b o d y i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n e x c e p t Mr
M o le f e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

B u t f o r – w i t h a l l th e r e s t a r o u n d

t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f t h e s e b u s in e s s c a s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y s .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c o u l d p h o n e , s m s a n d o r e m a il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : D ir e c t ly a n d my e m a il [i n d is t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e h a v e n e v e r b e e n a n y p r o b le m .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N e v e r a n y p r o b l e m s w i th t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b je c ti o n e x p r e s s e d b y M r G i a n i ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o . W h a t I d i d d o i f I s e n t p e r h a p s
a c o n te n ti o u s e m a il o r o n e o f c o n c e r n I w o u l d k e e p m y d i r e c t r e p o r t in g
s u p e r i o r s in f o r m e d e i th e r c o p y in g th e m o n t h e e m a il o r s a y in g th is is
10

w h a t h a p p e n e d b u t I w a s fo r t u n a t e a n d p r iv i l e g e d t o h a v e th a t d ir e c t
access.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d M r G ia n i ’s o b je c t i o n t o b e a b o u t
t h e c o n t e n t o f y o u r e m a i l o r t o b e a b o u t a n y t h i n g e l s e ? S o if y o u h a d
b e e n c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i th h i m d ir e c tly a n d w i t h M r G a m a d i r e c t ly
w h e n e v e r y o u h a d s o m e t h i n g t o c o m m u n i c a t e a n d th e r e h a d b e e n n o
p r o b le m w h y w a s i t a p r o b l e m t h is t i m e ?

Wa s i t a b o u t t h e c o n t e n t a s

y o u u n d e r s to o d i t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

A t t h e ti m e th a t I r e c e i v e d t h e

p h o n e c a ll s h o r t ly a f t e r – a l m o s t v e r y s h o r tl y a f t e r s e n d i n g t h e e m a il I
20

d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d o r h a v e c o n t e x t t o a n y r e a s o n s t o w h y M r G i a n i h a d
s a i d w h y d id y o u s e n d t h a t e m a i l , a t th a t ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

S u b s e q u e n t e v e n ts b o th th r o u g h

e m a i ls w i th w h ic h I w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h e l i k e I c a m e t o u n d e r s ta n d w h y
t h e r e w a s a c o n c e r n to t h a t e m a i l b u t I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d h is

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t e l e p h o n e c a ll to m e a t t h e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A t t h e ti m e o f h is c a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

S t r a n g e p h o n e c a l l.

W h a t is –

s tr a n g e p h o n e c a l l – d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h y – w h a t is w r o n g – i t is –
t h a t i s t h e r e a li ty, w h y y o u c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t it ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Pl e a s e I a m p a r a p h r a s i n g b u t th a t
10

is r e a lly – i t w a s my s e n ti m e n t a t ti m e . I – w h a t is w r o n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll th a t b e d e a lt w i t h l a t e r ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I w a s g o i n g to s a y C h a ir.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t a p p e a r s – i t is d r a w n t o m y a t t e n t i o n w e a r e
e n c r o a c h in g o n y o u r l u n c h b r e a k s o p e r h a p s w e w il l a d d r e s s t h o s e
is s u e s a f t e r w a r d lu n c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

If w e m a y b r e a k fo r l u n c h ?

Is t h a t s u it y o u

C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e w il l ta k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d w e w il l

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s S e l l o .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. B e f o r e w e – w e p r o c e e d a s
– a s a h o u s e k e e p i n g m a t t e r c o u l d I e n q u ir e a r e w e g o i n g u n t il f o u r –
s i tt i n g f o r a n e x t e n d e d p e r i o d t o d a y ?
10

CHAIRPERSON :

I f t h e w i tn e s s d o e s n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m a n d y o u d o

n o t h a v e a p r o b le m l e t u s g o u p to h a l f p a s t fo u r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Half past four?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Is t h a t fi n e w i th y o u ? I s t h a t f in e w i t h y o u ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t fi n e ? I t w o u l d b e fi n e w i th y o u Mr C a l la r d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It w o u ld b e f in e w i t h m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Now Mr Callard when we broke for lunch we

w e r e a t y o u r p a g e 11 – p a g e 11 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d – a n d w e h a d
ju s t fi n a l is e d t h e d is c u s s i o n o n t h e e m a il y o u h a d s e n t t o Mr G a m a a n d
M r J i y a n e e x p r e s s i n g y o u r c o n c e r n s r e g a r d in g h e a m e n d e d p r o p o s a l ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Yo u in t e r m a t e d to t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e s e e v e n t s c e r t a i n e m a il c o m m u n i c a t io n c a m e t o y o u
a tt e n ti o n r e g a r d i n g t h e s e m a t t e r s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s s o .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d – a n d t h a t c o m m u n ic a t i o n h i g h l ig h t e d

c e r t a i n th in g s t o y o u . Yo u d e a l w it h th is fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 8 a t p a g e 11 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In d e e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C o u l d y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th e d o c u m e n ts y o u
s u b s e q u e n t ly b e c a m e a w a r e o f ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Th a n k y o u a n d c e r t a i n l y C h a ir a n d
10

it w a s d u r in g t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f m y s ta t e m e n t t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n
p r o v i d e d m e w i t h t h r e e v e r y p e r t in e n t e m a i ls w h ic h a n in c r e d ib l e
b e a r in g o n w h a t I h a d p r e v io u s ly s a i d .

I h a d s e n t t h is e m a il o n t h e

a ft e r n o o n o f T h u r s d a y a f te r n o o n t h a t w a s t h e 2 3 r d to M r G a m a a n d
Mr Jiyane

but the

th r e e

e m a i ls

that

came

to

my

a tt e n ti o n a r e

r e s p e c ti v e ly a n d i f I m a y ta k e y o u p le a s e t o – to A n n e x u r e 1 0 . Th e f ir s t
o n e fr o m G a m a t o S i n g h – fr o m M r G a m a t o Mr S i n g h – a p o l o g ie s fo r
t h a t a n d t h is l a te o n t h e e v e n i n g o f t h e 2 3 r d . I t w a s a 2 2 m in u t e s p a s t
n i n e a n d e ff e c ti v e ly M r G a m a t o Mr S i n g h s a y s :
“ H i Mr S i n g h , I a m a fr a i d t h e s u b m is s i o n o n t h e 1 0 0
20

lo c o m o t iv e s

is

a

mess

and

w il l

need

to

be

w i t h d r a w n .”
The rest of that email is a restatement of my problem of what I had
e m a i l e d e a r l i e r a n d e ffe c tiv e l y a n d s u c c i n c t ly s u m m a r i s e s th e c o n c e r n s
I h a d r a is e d . T h e b o t t o m l in e o f t h i s e m a il i s t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h .
“ T h a t a n y a r g u m e n t t h e r e f o r e o n t h e 2 0 E o u g h t to

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
have

been

a

GFB

a r g u m e n t w h ic h

means

we

a c c e l e r a t e G F B b u t w e n e e d t o g o o u t o n t e n d e r fo r
1 9 E t y p e lo c o m o t iv e s .”
T h e la s t p o i n t :
“ T h e 2 0 E lo c o m o t iv e i s n o t a h e a v y h a u l l o c o m o ti v e
a n d a l e s s p o w e r f u l l o c o m o t iv e t h a n t h e 1 9 E .”
E ff e c t iv e ly t h e u p s h o t o f t h i s is t h a t M r S in g h – M r G a m a r e a l is e s th e
i m p o r t o f m y m a il i m m e d ia t e l y a n d a l e r ts M r S in g h to t h i s m a i l .

The

s e c o n d o n e a r o u n d t h is a n d t h i s is A n n e x u r e 11 w h ic h i s f r o m M r S i n g h
10

to Mr Gama and that is on Friday morning 07:02 and let us recall that
t h e B A D C M e e t in g is t a k i n g p l a c e l a te r t h a t m o r n i n g w h e r e t h is m a t t e r
is t o b e d i s c u s s e d a n d – a n d M r Si n g h t o M r G a m a . I t s a y s :
“ L e t u s d i s c u s s t h is in t h e m o r n i n g , th a n k s .”
E ff e c t iv e ly a c k n o w le d g i n g a n d – a n d a c k n o w l e d g i n g t h e i m p o r t o f t h i s
m a il . If I c o u l d th e n t a k e y o u to A n n e x u r e 1 2 w h ic h a ls o h a s r e f e r e n c e
t o t h i s a n d th is i s o n – a g a i n o n Fr id a y m o r n in g a t 7 o ’ c l o c k w h e r e
M r Si n g h

addresses

M r M o l e fe

and

forwards

Mr G a m a ’s

m a il

to

M r M o l e fe fo r y o u r i n f o r m a t io n . S o e ff e c ti v e l y t h e u p s h o t o f t h i s is t h a t
t h e t o p e c h e l o n i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n w e r e a w a r e o f my c o n c e r n s a n d
20

M r G a m a h a d e ffe c tiv e ly in t e r n a li s e d a n d a r ti c u la t e d a n d fr o m h is m a il
w a s i n f u ll a n d c o m p le t e u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f m y c o n c e r n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e l u n c h d id y o u – d id y o u d e a l w i th t h e q u e s t i o n
w h e t h e r M r G a m a r e s p o n d e d t o y o u i n a n y w a y – r e s p o n d e d to t h a t
e m a i l o f y o u r s in a n y w a y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I had no email correspondence

Page 125 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
fr o m h i m w h a ts o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l e p h o n e c a ll ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ye s .

I had a SMS message from

Mr Gama …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

A n d t h is is c o v e r e d o n – i f I m a y

ju s t ju m p t o th a t c o u n s e l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s s ir.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R :

I n a n s w e r to t h a t . Th a n k y o u . I f I

c o u l d ta k e y o u t h r o u g h t o 5 4 p l e a s e o n p a g e 1 3 – p a r a g r a p h 5 4 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

A n d I r e c e iv e d a n S M S f r o m

M r G a m a i n r e s p o n s e t o m y e m a il o f t h e 2 3 r d a n d h i s e m a il s t a ti n g :
“ I h a v e ju s t s e e n y o u r e m a il .

I w i ll e x p l a in t o y o u

t h e G C E s t h in k i n g .”
A n d th a t w a s i t . T h is w a s n o t f o l lo w e d u p . I t o o k n o t e o f t h e e m a il –
s o r r y – o f t h e S M S l e f t i t a t t h a t b u t t h e o b s e r v a ti o n w h i c h I m a k e fr o m
t h a t is h is c o m m e n t – M r G a m a ’s c o m m e n t t h a t h e – I h a v e ju s t s e e n
20

y o u r e m a i l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n n o t b e tr u e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o n t h e s a m e d a y th a t h e r e c e iv e d i t h e – h e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s e n t a n e m a il t o Mr S i n g h a b o u t i t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e e x a c t p o i n t o f 5 4 . 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d – a n d in th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts t h a t S M S
you refer to at paragraph 54 comes on 4 February?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

A n d – a n d a lo t h a p p e n e d b e t w e e n 2 3 M a y

w h ic h i s w h e n y o u g e n e r a t e d t h e e m a i l a n d t h e S M S r e c e i v e d o n
4 Fe b r u a r y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I n t h a t in t e r v e n i n g ti m e o n 2 4 M a y
w e h a d t h e B A D C M e e t i n g a n d t h e B o a r d M e e ti n g w h ic h e ff e c ti v e ly – n o
w h ic h n o t e ffe c t iv e l y – b u t w h ic h a p p r o v e d th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d t h e
c o n fi n e m e n t o f t h e l o c o m o t iv e s t o C S R b u t I t h in k t h a t y o u w il l
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e w i ll d e a l w i t h it r i g h t n o w. Th a n k y o u a n d
in f a c t t h e B A D C M e e t i n g o f t h e 2 4 t h w h ic h i f w e c o u ld – w e c o u l d
r e c o l l e c t w h e n M r G a m a a s k e d y o u to m a k e c e r t a i n c h a n g e s to t h e

20

p r o p o s a l t o i n c r e a s e th e n u m b e r o f d i e s e l lo c o m o t iv e s fr o m 6 0 t o 8 0 h e
in d i c a t e d

in

that

email

that

presentation

was

s c h e d u le d

for

2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 b e f o r e B A D C a n d t h a t i s th e d a te y o u a r e tr y i n g to
beat. Correct?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

H is – s o r r y if I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r

q u e s t io n c o r r e c t ly. H is S M S t o m e o n F r i d a y a f te r n o o n o f t h e 1 8 t h w a s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w e h a d t o m e e t t h e B A D C M e e t in g o n Fr id a y th e 2 4 h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s , s o r r y. 1 8 J a n u a r y. S o w e a r e a l l tr y i n g t o
b e a t th e B A D C M e e ti n g o f th e 2 4 t h ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t B A D C M e e t in g a t y o u r
paragraph 49 at page …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: 12?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. Yo u …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M a y I ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d p l e a s e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e B A D C M e e ti n g w a s h e l d o n

2 4 J a n u a r y a n d A n n e x u r e 1 3 a n d I c a n r e c o r d th a t th is – t h e m in u t e s o f
t h is w e r e p r o v i d e d t o m e b y th e Z o n d o C o m m i s s io n . T h e m i n u t e s o f t h e
B A D C M e e t in g o n 2 4 J a n u a r y A n n e x u r e 1 3 – i f w e m a y j u s t t u r n to t h a t
p l e a s e w h i c h is p a g e …
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: 227.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 2 7 . T h e m i n u te s t h e ms e lv e s a r e
20

on 228.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
m e e ti n g s

that

per

1.4

of

228

From 228
that

in

I n o te

p a r t ia l

from these

a t te n d a n c e

was

M r S I G a m a , M r T J iy a n e a n d i n f u l l a t te n d a n c e w a s M r – u n d e r 1 . 2 –
M r M o l e fe a n d M r S in g h w e r e i n a t t e n d a n c e a t th a t m e e ti n g .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d Mr G a r r y Pi t a o n 1 . 2 …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : G a r r y P i ta w a s …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : G P i t a t h e r e is t h a t M r G a r r y P i t a ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

That G – Mr G Pita – yes is

M r G a r r y P i ta – G r o u p S u p p ly C h a in O ff ic e r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e n w h il e w e a r e s t il l t h e n d e a l in g w it h
t h e c o m p o s i ti o n o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e w e u n d e r s ta n d Mr S h a r m a w a s t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A s p e r th e m i n u t e s , y e s .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
Mr M E Mkhwanazi

is

Ye s
l is t e d

and

as

a

the

th ir d

m e m b e r.

name
Do

you

lis t e d
know

t here
who

Mr M E Mkhwanazi was?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e o n ly M r M E M k h w a n a z i w h o I
k n o w o f t h a t n a m e w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n a t th is m e e ti n g w a s
M r M a fik a M k h w a n a z i w h o w a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y.

N o w y o u b r o u g h t u s th e n to – t o

Annexure 13.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Th e p o i n t t h e n b e y o n d th is is i f

o n e th e n g o e s t o p a g e 2 3 2 o f t h o s e m i n u te s w h e r e th e y d i s c u s s th e
20

a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e 1 0 0 c l a s s 1 9 E e l e c t r ic a n d 6 0 c la s s 4 3 d i e s e l
lo c o m o t iv e s u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 o f p a g e 2 3 2 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s a n d w h a t in p a r t ic u l a r w o u ld y o u l ik e to

d r a w t h e C h a ir ’s a t t e n t io n to a t 5 . 2 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e l l t h e f ir s t t h i n g I w o u ld li k e t o

d r a w a t te n ti o n to is t h a t d e s p i t e th e a tt e n d a n c e o f th o s e t h r e e p a r ti e s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w h o w e r e f u l ly a w a r e n o w o f t h e c o n c e r n s w h ic h I h a d e x p r e s s e d t h o s e
c o n c e r n s w e r e n o t r e fl e c t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

In the

minutes

o f th e

BADC

M e e ti n g a t a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r C a ll a r d . I c a n s e e 5 .1 . 2 b u t I t h in k y o u
a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t – y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th 5 . 2 . W h a t p a g e is th a t ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : 2 3 2 C h a ir.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 3 2 .
10

CHAIRPERSON : 232?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 3 2 .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh, okay thank you.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
p a r a g r a p h s 5 . 2 .1 is a d m in is tr a tiv e .

Thank you.

Going through the

T h e y t o o k t h e m t h r o u g h th a t .

P a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 . 2 - a t th e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e – is t h e d i s c u s s io n th a t
t o o k p l a c e a r o u n d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t . T h e p o i n t a r o u n d t h a t d is c u s s i o n
20

is th a t n o w h e r e in t h a t d is c u s s i o n w e r e t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t I r a i s e d
b r o u g h t to t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e m e e t in g a s a p o t e n ti a l r is k to t h is
tr a n s a c ti o n b y a n y o f t h e p a r ti e s p r e s e n t w h o h a d f u ll k n o w l e d g e n o w o f
t h o s e r is k s w h i c h I h a d r a i s e d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o w e k n o w w h e r e – d o w e k n o w w h e t h e r p r i o r to t h is

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
m e e ti n g th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t t h e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e h a d r e c e iv e d i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h is is s u e i n c lu d e d t h e a m e n d e d m e m o r a n d u m a n d w h e th e r i t
w a s a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t c o n ta i n e d t h e s a m e c h a n g e s th a t w e h a v e
d e a lt w it h o r w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a n y f u r t h e r – t h e r e w e r e a n y fu r t h e r
changes arising out of your concerns?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

The

memorandum

that

was

p r e s e n t e d t o th e B o a r d M r C h a i r is A n n e x u r e 1 4 p a g e 2 4 4 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d i f w e t u r n t o p a g e 2 6 7 w h ic h i s
10

t h e s ig n a tu r e s o f th a t m e m o r a n d u m r e c o m m e n d i n g c o n fi n e m e n t t o C S R
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e w i ll s e e o r n o te th a t i t is

s ig n e d b y M r A n o j S i n g h o n th e 2 1 s t – s o r r y – o n t h e 1 4 t h – c o r r e c ti o n o n 2 1 / 0 1 /2 0 1 4 i .e . t h a t w o u ld b e 2 1 J a n u a r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
2 1 J a n u a r y.

I t is s i g n e d b y M r M o l e f e d a t e d

W h a t i s in t e r e s ti n g a b o u t t h e s e s i g n a t u r e s is 2 1 J a n u a r y

was the Monday of the preceding – of the …
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W e e k b e f o r e . Th a t w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s b e fo r e y o u r - y o u r e m a il o f y o u r c o n c e r n s a s
w e ll ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Before the email of my concerns.

B e f o r e t h e e m a il – b e f o r e t h i s m e m o r a n d u m h a d e v e n b e e n fi n a l is e d .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t p r e d a t e s th e f i n a li s a t io n o f th a t

e m a i l . Th e e m a i l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I a m n o t s u r e i f I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . Yo u r e m a i l t o
M r G a m a a n d Mr J iy a n e i n w h i c h y o u e x p r e s s e d y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t
a m e n d m e n ts t o t h e m e m o r a n d u m y o u h a d c o m p il e d w a s …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Wa s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e n t o n t h e 2 3 r d . Is i t n o t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Wa s s e n t o n t h e 2 3 r d y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h ic h w o u l d b e a d a y a f t e r Mr B r i a n M o l e fe h a d
s ig n e d …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is o n e a n d t w o d a y s a f te r M r S in g h h a d s i g n e d th is
memorandum at page 267?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M a y I t a k e y o u b a c k Mr C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e r e v is e d m e m o r a n d u m – t h e

memorandum I prepared on the Monday …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Recommended

confinement

M A R S . O n t h e 2 1 s t I r e c o m m e n d e d c o n f in e m e n t t o M A R S .
CHAIRPERSON : Monday being the 21st?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M o n d a y th e 2 1 s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: If I may correct us.

Page 132 of 200

to

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I a p o lo g is e C h a ir.

I t h in k it i s M o n d a y t h e

20th.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y – t h e M o n d a y t h e 2 0 t h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M o n d a y th e 2 0 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

The

Wednesday

the

22nd the

m o r n in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

O f W e d n e s d a y t h e 2 2 n d I g e t th is

r e v is e d m e m o r a n d u m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Fr o m M s L i n d iw e M d le ts h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W h e r e w e a r e s til l th e n b u s y

r e v is i n g th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d p u tt i n g t h e d o c u m e n t i n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

A n d I o n ly s e n t t h a t d o c u m e n t t o

her later on – on the Wednesday morning.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o th i s d o c u m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n r e a d y …

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

F o r s ig n a tu r e o n t h e 2 1 s t o r t h e

22nd …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B e c a u s e i t w a s s ti ll i n p r e p a r a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Is th e p o i n t I w a s m a k i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t is n o w a s s u m i n g t h a t th is d o c u m e n t r e f le c ts t h e
changes that you were asked to make?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It d o e s in d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON : And – and you say it does?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It d o e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a n k y o u a n d m a y b e t o g o b a c k t o t h e p o i n t w h ic h

w a s t h e s u b j e c t o f m y o r ig in a l q u e s t io n t h is d o c u m e n t t h e r e f o r e b e i n g
t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e th e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e i n s u b s t a n c e
d i d i t c o n t a i n th e s a m e a m e n d m e n t s a b o u t w h i c h y o u h a d e x p r e s s e d
concern?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It c o n t a i n e d …
CHAIRPERSON : The substance.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

The

same

a m e n d m e n ts

in

s u b s t a n c e c o n fi n e m e n t t o M A R S f o r th e s a m e r e a s o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, t h a n k y o u . O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t c h e c k w i th M r C a l l a r d I a m

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
n o t s u r e i f h e u n d e r s t o o d y o u r q u e s t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

The

C h a ir ’s

q u e s t io n

was

w h e th e r

the

d o c u m e n t w h ic h i s a n n e x e d a s 1 4 …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

C o n t a i n e d t h e a m e n d m e n ts m a d e t o t h e

o r i g in a l p r o p o s e d M A R S c o n f in e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t m e p u t i t a g a i n . M r C a l la r d y o u w e r e s e n t
b y M s M d l e ts h e .
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u r m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u h a d p r e p a r e d b u t w i th

suggested changes …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r c h a n g e s th a t y o u w e r e a s k e d t o m a k e a n d y o u h a d
concerns about the changes that yo u were asked to make.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s e n t a n e m a il t o M r G a m a a n d M r J iy a n e a b o u t

your concerns?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m y q u e s t io n i n r e g a r d s to t h is w a s s i m p ly w h e t h e r
in

s u b s ta n c e

th is

document

that

was

placed

before

the

Board

C o m m i t t e e c o n t a in e d t h e s a m e c h a n g e s w h ic h h a d c a u s e d y o u t h e
c o n c e r n s w h ic h y o u h a d a r t ic u l a t e d t o M r G a m a a n d M r J iy a n e a n d m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t y o u s a y t h a t is s o .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A b s o l u te l y c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t c o n ta in s t h e s a m e c h a n g e s i n

substance …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To w h i c h I r a is e d m y c o n c e r n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To M r J iy a n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d t o M r S i n g h …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d w i t h o u t t e s t i fy i n g t o e v e r y d o t
and

T

but

it

is

e s s e n t ia ll y

th e

changes

that

I

r e c e iv e d

fr o m

M s L i n d iw e M d le ts h e i n th a t m a i l t o w h ic h I e x p r e s s e d m y c o n c e r n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d p e r h a p s b e c a u s e w e a r e
a lr e a d y o n t h is d o c u m e n t i t m a y b e a p p r o p r i a te t o d e a l w i t h i t a t t h is
ju n c t u r e . M r C a ll a r d i f y o u r e f e r t o p a g e 2 5 7 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 5 … ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S e v e n a n d s t a r ti n g a t p a r a g r a p h 6 9 .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: And …
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y Ms S e ll o .

Earlier on you made the point

M r C a l l a r d t h a t th e – I th in k i t w a s M r Br ia n – n o , n o M r S i n g h .

The

p a g e o n w h ic h h e s i g n e d t h e d o c u m e n t w e h a v e j u s t b e e n t a lk in g a b o u t
t h a t w a s p la c e d b e fo r e t h e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e . I t a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s ig n e d o n 2 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 a n d I t h i n k i t w a s i n r e g a r d t o h i m t h a t y o u
w e r e s a y in g t h e d o c u m e n t c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n s ig n e d o n th e 2 1 s t
because on the 21 st he would not – I assume you say – have received
t h e d o c u m e n t a s a m e n d e d b y – w e ll a s g i v e n e ffe c t t o t h e a m e n d m e n ts
h a v i n g b e e n g i v e n e ff e c t t o b y y o u th a t w e r e s u g g e s t e d t o y o u ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : C o r r e c t M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, the amended docume nt …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e a m e n d e d d o c u m e n t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a m e la t e r ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o th e q u e s ti o n I w a n t e d t o a s k w a s w h e th e r i t w a s

n o t p o s s i b l e t h a t – i t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n p o s s ib le f o r t h e – f o r
s o m e b o d y n o t t o w a i t fo r – f o r y o u t o e ff e c t t h e c h a n g e s b u t t o g o
a h e a d a n d m a k e t h e c h a n c e s o n t h e ir o w n c o m p u te r.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O f c o u r s e t h a t is – t h a t p o s s i b il it y
d o e s e x is t a n d i t i s a p o s s i b il it y Mr C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o m e o n e e ls e c o u l d h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

M a d e a ll th o s e c h a n g e s w i th o u t

w a i ti n g f o r m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : G i v e n th e m t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Mr S i n g h a n d M r M o l e fe t o s i g n …

Page 137 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O n t h e 2 1 s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W h i c h s h o u l d h a v e m e a n t t h a t t h e
m a il fr o m M s M d l e ts h e t o m e o n t h e 2 2 n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Wa s a w a s t e o f t i m e …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O r j u s t a t o ta l m is c o m m u n ic a ti o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c a n n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S a y t h a t i t is n o t p o s s ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f – i f th a t w a s d o n e t h e n it is p o s s i b l e b u t – b u t if
t h e y w a i t e d f o r y o u r o n e s th e n i t w o u l d n o t b e p o s s ib le ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d l e t u s t a k e t h a t d is c u s s i o n to i ts l o g i c a l

c o n c l u s i o n M r C a l la r d i f y o u p e r m i t m e . P l e a s e r e f e r t o p a g e 2 6 0 a n d
20

t h a t - th a t i s t h e s i g n e d p r o p o s a l t o B A D C ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: At 87 – just a second.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t p a g e 8 7 w h a t i s th a t ta b l e a n d h o w d i d i t
g e t t o b e p a r t o f t h i s d o c u m e n t?

Page 138 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D id y o u n o t y o u s a y w e m u s t g o t o 2 6 0 ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a r a g r a p h 8 7 . I d o a p o l o g is e .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh, not page.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Page 260.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Paragraph 87.

A t p a r a g r a p h 8 7 t h e r e is a

t a b le ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e r e i s a t a b le y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

C a n – d o y o u k n o w w h o i n s e r te d t h a t t a b l e

in t o t h e d o c u m e n t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To t h e b e s t o f m y r e c o ll e c t io n t h a t
I d i d t h a t b u t I w o u ld j u s t li k e to c o n f ir m t h a t t o t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h I
r e c e i v e d fr o m M s M d l e ts h e w h ic h I th i n k is A n n e x u r e 1 3 – s o r r y –
Annexure …
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Annexure 5 I think.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n n e x u r e 5 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o r r y, s o r r y. L e t m e n o t c o n fu s e y o u . W e a r e
lo o k in g fo r A n n e x u r e 7 w h ic h s ta r ts a t 1 5 7 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n n e x u r e 7 .

20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d A n n e x u r e 7 i t s e l f is a n e m a i l fr o m

M s M d l e ts h e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : M d l e t s h e , y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

R e q u e s t in g

you

to

fi n d

the

e v a lu a ti o n

m e t h o d o l o g y th a t n e e d s to b e i n c o r p o r a t e d i n th e W o r d d o c u m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : R ig h t . I f o n e c o u ld – t h a n k y o u –

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
if o n e c o u l d – i f I c o u l d r e fe r y o u p l e a s e t o p a g e s 1 7 7 a n d 1 7 8 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h i s i s th e d o c u m e n t r e c e iv e d fr o m
M s M d l e ts h e o n t h e W e d n e s d a y m o r n in g a n d y o u w i ll s e e s i g n i fic a n t
g a p s o n p a g e 1 7 7 a n d 1 7 8 w h e r e t h e d o c u m e n t o b v i o u s ly n e e d s t o b e
f o r m u l a t e d a n d a s li d e i n s e r t e d a n d t h a t i s w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n I
in s e r t e d t h e e v a l u a t io n m e th o d o l o g y s li d e in t o t h e d o c u m e n t .

It was

fi n e t o ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

S o b y r e a s o n o f t h a t y o u a r e a b le t o s a y th e

d o c u m e n t t h a t M r Si n g h a n d M r B r i a n M o l e fe s ig n e d th a t - w h ic h I
r e fe r r e d t o a fe w m i n u t e s a g o - y o u a r e a b l e to s a y i t is t h e d o c u m e n t
t h a t c a m e fr o m y o u a f t e r y o u h a d b e e n a s k e d t o e ff e c t c h a n g e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ye s u n l e s s a s y o u – o n e c a n n o t

e x c lu d e t h e p o s s ib il i ty t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y e l s e w i t h a l l t h e
knowledge …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Pr i n t e d i t o n th e s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O n e c a n n o t e x c lu d e t h a t p o s s i b i li ty
b u t o th e r w i s e i t is
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y o n t h e p r o b a b i li ti e s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O n t h e b a l a n c e o f p r o b a b i li ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

M a y I th e n a l s o ju s t d i r e c t o n e to

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h e f i n a l p o i n t t h a t if o n e lo o k s a t o n p a g e – a g a i n o n p a g e 2 6 0 r ig h t a t
the bottom – bottom left it says:
“ B A D C 1 6 0 f in a l .”
S o e v e n a f t e r m y d o c u m e n t w a s i n s e r t e d t h e r e w e r e s t il l s u b s e q u e n t
c h a n g e s t o t h i s b e c a u s e i t h a s n o w b e e n c h a n g e d fr o m v e r s i o n 1 5 G P …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W h ic h I a m e n d e d …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To s o m e b o d y – s o m e b o d y h a s s ti ll
10

w o r k e d o n i t t o B A D C 1 6 0 fi n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a i r a n d t o t h e q u e s ti o n w h e th e r
o r n o t th is d o c u m e n t r e fl e c t e d t h e c o n c e r n s y o u h a d r a is e d a b o u t
c o n fi n e m e n t t o C S R t h e – th e d o c u m e n t a t A n n e x u r e 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll m a y b e i f y o u s a y r e fl e c ts t h e c o n c e r n s i t m ig h t

b e a m b ig u o u s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: No, no (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is r e fl e c ts …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I w i ll r e s t a te .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : It r e fl e c t s t h e is s u e s t h a t …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t r e fl e c ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : G a v e r is e to h i s c o n c e r n s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: It is a completely wrong question I posed. It
r e fl e c ts t h e c h a n g e s m a d e t o y o u r o r i g i n a l d o c u m e n t ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In s u b s t a n c e y e s .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d n o w i n t h a t r e g a r d I w o u l d li k e t o r e f e r

you to page 256 …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d – I j u s t l a s t my p a g e .

C h a i r if y o u – i f

y o u w o u l d b e a r w i th m e – a n d w i th r e f e r e n c e t o o u r A n n e x u r e 8 p a g e
2 5 6 fr o m p a r a g r a p h 6 6 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 5 – f r o m p a r a g r a p h 6 0 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : H a v e y o u lo c a t e d i t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I h a v e 2 5 6 – 2 5 6 p a r a g r a p h 6 6 .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: From paragraph 66.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O n p a g e 2 5 6 ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A c o m p a r is o n o f th e – fr o m p a r a g r a p h 6 8 –

c o n fi n e m e n t o f 1 0 0 e l e c tr i c l o c o m o ti v e s . W i th y o u r A n n e x u r e 8 – w h i c h
is w h e r e y o u i n d ic a t e d c h a n g e s w e r e m a d e - a n d t h a t w i ll b e o n p a g e
1 9 9 a p p e a r t o b e t h e s a m e . M e a n i n g t h a t t h e l a t te r d o c u m e n t s e e m s t o
h a v e in c o r p o r a te d th e v e r y C S R c h a n g e s i n tr o d u c e d .

W o u ld I b e

correct?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t w o u ld b e c o r r e c t . I f w e l o o k
a t p a r a g r a p h 6 9 t h a t is a t t h e f ir s t r e a d i n g th e s a m e a s p a r a g r a p h 6 7 .
P a r a g r a p h 6 8 a d d r e s s i n g th e u r g e n c y is m is s i n g fr o m t h e a p p r o v e d
v e r s i o n . T h e v e r s i o n – p a r a g r a p h 7 0 – c o m p li m e n ti n g t h e u r g e n c y is i n
a n d i t is th e s a m e in s ty l e a n d s u b s ta n c e a s t h e p a g e 2 0 1 w h ic h w a s
t h e c h a n g e d d o c u m e n t I r e c e iv e d f r o m M s M d le ts h e . S o c o n f ir m in g in

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s u b s t a n c e it is th e s a m e .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A t le a s t in s o f a r a s c o n f i n e m e n t to C S R i s

concerned?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o n fi n e m e n t t o C S R y e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u w i ll r e c a l l M r C a ll a r d th a t w e w e r e d e a l in g
w i t h t h e a c tu a l m i n u t e o f t h e – o f B A D C …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

B e f o r e – b e f o r e w e d e a l t w it h t h e s e is s u e s

and we were at page 232 …
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 3 2 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d i n p a r t ic u l a r it e m 5 . 2 . 2 .
CHAIRPERSON : 232?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : 2 . 2 - 5 . 2 .2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a n n e x u r e o f t h e m i n u te s ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n n e x u r e w o u l d b e C h a ir A n n e x u r e 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON : I thought you were saying we were going there.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON :

I thought you were saying we were going to the

minutes?
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s th e m i n u te s a t – it i s A n n e x u r e 1 3 s t a r t in g
at 277.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e p a r ti c u l a r p a g e is p a g e 2 3 2 a n d y o u
w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 .2 o n p a g e …
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.

Page 143 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w I a m g o i n g t o tr y a n d - a n d d e c o n s tr u c t

t h is a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o h a v e y o u r c o m m e n ts .

Th e fir s t e n tr y th e r e

s t a te s :
“ Ma n a g e m e n t i n … ”
And I quote.
“ Ma n a g e m e n t i n fo r m e d t h e C o m m i t t e e th a t i t w a s
d e c i d e d t h a t a 2 6 h e a v y h a u l li n e b y G E w o u l d
p e r f o r m b e t te r t h a n a C l a s s 1 9 E l o c o m o t iv e b y
M i ts u i .”
10

J u s t c a n y o u c o m m e n t o n t h a t in p a r ti c u la r ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C e r t a i n ly. C o n s is t e n t …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I n r e g a r d to G E p le a s e – r e f e r e n c e t o G E .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

C o n s is t e n t

throughout

t h is

paragraph GE should have read CSR and CSR should read GE
c o n s i s te n t th r o u g h o u t t h i s a p p r o v a l o f t h e 1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u a r e s a y i n g th e y g o t m i x e d u p ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e y g o t m ix e d u p .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e y g o t s w a p p e d a r o u n d t h e r e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e y g o t m ix e d u p .
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y.

T h e n i f w e – w e w il l r e a d G E f o r

p u r p o s e s o f t h is c o n v e r s a t i o n n o t C S R fo r n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w e m u s t r e a d a s it is j a .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: It says:

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
“ Ma n a g e m e n t in f o r m e d t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t i t w a s
d e c i d e d t h a t a 2 6 h e a v y h a u l l in e b y … ”
Yo u s u g g e s t :
“ … C S R w o u l d p e r f o r m b e t t e r th a n a C la s s 1 9 E
lo c o m o t iv e b y M i ts u i. ”
M y q u e s ti o n to y o u i s d o y o u k n o w w h o a n d b y w h o m i t w a s d e c id e d
t h a t t h a t 2 6 to n h e a v y h a u l l in e b y S C R w o u ld p e r f o r m b e tt e r t h a n t h e
19E Mitsui?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

I cannot put a name to wh en you

ask by who.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d – a n d y o u s a y t h is – w h e r e t h is G E – w h e r e it

s a y s G E i n t h a t s e n t e n c e a n d in t h e r e s t o f th e p a r a g r a p h i t s h o u l d b e
s a y in g C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e r e i t s a y s C S R i t s h o u ld s a y G E ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d o n t h a t v e r y p o i n t b e f o r e I d e a l w i th t h e
o th e r is s u e s .
20

I f y o u g o f u r t h e r i n t o t h e b o d y o f th a t p a r a g r a p h

M r C a l l a r d a t l in e 6 – a t t h e e n d o f l in e 5 – a s ta t e m e n t s t a r t s :
“ Ma n a g e m e n t r e q u e s t e d f o r a c o n tr a c t e x t e n s i o n f o r
C l a s s 4 3 E d i e s e l lo c o m o t iv e s b y C S R .”
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

Which should read an extension

o r C l a s s 4 3 d i e s e l l o c o m o ti v e s b y G E , t h a t ’s w h a t i t s h o u ld r e a d .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d y o u – s o th e d i e s e l lo c o m o t iv e s w e r e to

Page 145 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
b e s u p p l ie d b y G E , a n d th e e l e c tr ic l o c o m o ti v e s b y C S R .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Correct.

But when you – you say when you read that

p a r a g r a p h t h e r e is a n i n v e r s i o n t h e r e , th e r e ’s a b i t o f c o n f u s i o n , s o
where see GE we must read CSR and conversely where we see CSR we
must read GE.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Correct.

O k a y, g e t ti n g b a c k t h e n to t h e s ta r t o f th e

d o c u m e n t th e s e c o n d p r o p o s i ti o n m a d e h e r e is a n d i t’s s t a t e d , “ fu r t h e r
10

it s e e m e d t h a t C S R , w r i t t e n G E , I ’ ll r e a d C S R , d e l iv e r s f a s t e r t h a n
M i ts u i” , d o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n t h a t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

Ye s I h a v e a c o m m e n t , t h e

c o m m e n t is c o r r e c t b u t o n e q u e s t io n s i ts r e l e v a n c e b e c a u s e C S R , a n d
it w a s k n o w n a t t h e t i m e , is a m a j o r s u p p l ie r o f l o c o m o t iv e s i n C h i n a
a n d t h e y h a v e t h e c a p a c i ty, i t w a s p a s s a g e ta lk , th a t th e y c o u ld
p r o d u c e a t h o u s a n d l o c o m o ti v e s a y e a r, t h a t is a c o n s i d e r a b l e n u m b e r
o f lo c o m o t iv e s .

S o t h e y h a v e t h e c a p a c i t y to p r o d u c e , t h e r e l e v a n c e ,

h o w e v e r, i s th e y a r e t h e n p r o d u c e d i n C h i n a a n d n o t i n S o u th A f r i c a
a n d th e n w o u l d n o t m e e t a n y o f t h e lo c a l s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t a n d / o r
20

lo c a l c o n te n t p r e s c r i p ti o n s w h ic h w o u l d b e i n p l a c e f o r t h e i m p o r t o f th e
lo c o m o t iv e s .

S o t o m a k e th e s ta t e m e n t t h a t C S R c a n p r o d u c e

lo c o m o t iv e s a t t h a t r a te , h o w e v e r, i n C h i n a , w h e n i t s h o u l d b e a p p l ie d
t o S o u t h A fr ic a i s q u e s ti o n a b l e .

F u r t h e r a t t h is ti m e th e – n o

lo c o m o t iv e f r o m C S R h a d b e e n p r o d u c e d i n S o u t h A fr i c a , t h e p r o d u c ti o n
li n e in Tr a n s n e t E n g i n e e r i n g w a s s t il l b e i n g s e t u p . W e h a v e h e a r d , a n d

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
I’ v e s p o k e n t o t h e o n e l o c o m o ti v e th a t w a s i m p o r te d f r o m C h i n a a n d
u n d e r g o i n g p r o t o ty p e t e s t in g , t h e f ir s t 1 0 lo c o m o t iv e s o f t h a t 9 5 w e r e
c o m i n g fr o m C h in a , n o t h i n g h a d b e e n d e l iv e r e d h e r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a .
S o t h e n t o p o s i t th a t w e c o u l d h a v e a r a p i d p r o d u c ti o n li n e h e r e i n
S o u th A f r i c a w h e n i t h a d n o t e v e n b e e n s e t u p w o u ld b e – w a s a f a ls e
s t a te m e n t .

T h is

s t a te m e n t t h a t

th e y

c o u ld

produce

a

hundred

lo c o m o t iv e s b u t i n C h i n a , I c o n t e n d is d e s i g n e d t o c o n fu s e a n d m is l e a d .
CHAIRPERSON :

Would it make sense what they were saying about –

in t e r m s o f lo c a l s k i lls d e v e lo p m e n t i f t h e l o c o m o ti v e s – i f y o u w e r e n o t
10

d o i n g it in S o u t h A fr ic a o r i t c o u ld m a k e s e n s e d e p e n d i n g o n c e r t a in
t h i n g s , y o u s a i d y o u q u e s ti o n – y o u s a id i t ’s q u e s t io n a b l e a n d I’ m j u s t
tr y i n g t o s e e w h e t h e r t h a t ’s a s f a r a s y o u c a n t a k e i t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
t h a t i t ’s a n i n fe r e n c e .

I m a k e a n i n fe r e n c e a n d I s tr e s s

T h e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d g e n e r a ll y a r e n o t

f a m ili a r w i t h l o c o m o t iv e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d lo c o m o t iv e s u p p ly a n d w o u l d
t a k e s ta t e m e n ts fr o m m a n a g e m e n t a t f a c e - v a l u e a s b e in g th e s e a r e t r u e
a n d c o r r e c t a n d g i v e a f u l l a n d tr u e p i c t u r e o f w h e r e w e s h o u l d b e ,
t a k i n g t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d d o in g i t .

I f a s t a te m e n t is m a d e i n t h i s

c o n te x t t o a B o a r d w h i c h is n o t i n f o r m e d o f t h e d e t a il o r k n o w le d g e a b l e
20

o f t h e d e t a il a r o u n d lo c o m o t iv e s u p p l y t h e fir s t in f e r e n c e t h a t t h e B o a r d
w i ll m a k e , w e l l t h a n k y o u t h is i s k o s h e r u n l e s s t h e y k n e w d i ff e r e n t .
T h e r e i s a fi d u c i a r y d u t y o n m a n a g e m e n t t o i n fo r m th e B o a r d o f a l l
r e l e v a n t r is k s to o u r tr a n s a c t i o n in a e n t e r p r i s e s u c h a s Tr a n s n e t . Tw o
p o i n t s a r is e f r o m h e r e , o n e , th e B o a r d a n d / o r B A D C – s o r r y B A D C i n
t h is c a s e w a s n o t in f o r m e d o f th e s ig n if i c a n t r is k s t o w h ic h m e m b e r s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
n o w w e r e a lr e a d y a l e r te d s o t h e r e w a s a f a il u r e – I c o n t e n t a s e r io u s
f a il u r e o f f id u c i a r y d u ty a t t h a t l e v e l , t h e s e c o n d , i n w h a t w a s p u t
f o r w a r d h e r e a s a r a ti o n a l e fo r c o n fi n in g t o C h in a in t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y
c o u l d d e l iv e r w a s m is l e a d i n g i n t h a t t h e B o a r d w o u l d n o t h a v e k n o w n o r
b e e n a b le t o r e a l is e th a t th is w a s C h i n a a n d n o t S o u t h A f r i c a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u M r C a ll a r d , th e n e x t i s s u e is s t il l

a t 5 2 2 a n d i t s ta t e s , I r e a d fr o m th e t h i r d li n e t h a t w o u l d b e t h e t h ir d
s e n te n c e o n t h e t h ir d li n e a n d I q u o te , “ m a n a g e m e n t m o t iv a te d f o r th e
10

c o n fi n e m e n t i n fa v o u r o f G E w e k n o w to r e a d C S R n o w, th is m o ti v a t e d
b y a s u b m i s s i o n th a t w a s p r e v i o u s l y w i th d r a w n d u e t o r e p u t a ti o n a l r i s k
is s u e s t h a t h a d e m a n a te d fr o m a n o l d n e w s p a p e r a r tic l e . M y q u e s ti o n
t o y o u is , a r e y o u a w a r e o f a s u b m is s io n m o t iv a t i n g f o r c o n fi n e m e n t t o
C S R th a t w a s w i t h d r a w n ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I k n o w o f n o m o tiv a ti o n t o a – n o

s u b m is s io n th a t m o tiv a t e d a c o n fi n e m e n t t o C S R th a t w a s w i t h d r a w n .
T h e o n e w h i c h w e d o k n o w o f i s t h e m o ti v a ti o n w h ic h r e c o m m e n d e d a
c o n fi n e m e n t

to

M it s u i

in

October

that

was

w i th d r a w n

and

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
20

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

S o i f w e r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h fu r t h e r t h e n

s k i p p i n g a l in e a n d g o in g o n t o t h e n e x t s e n te n c e I r e a d ,
“ t h e C h a i r p e r s o n s t a t e d t h a t t h e p r e v i o u s s u b m is s i o n w a s
w i t h d r a w n p r io r to th e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e 2 7 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3
m e e ti n g d u e t o c o n c e r n s th a t th e c o n fi n e m e n t w a s p r o p o s e d
f o r c l a s s 1 9 E l o c o m o ti v e s fr o m M it s u i ( w h i c h h a d w o n a

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
c o n tr a c t i n t o 0 0 6 ) ” .
I t’s a p o i n t t h a t y o u m a k e th a t th e o n e y o u k n o w t h a t w a s
w i t h d r a w n w a s c o n fi n i n g t o M i ts u i .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Correct.

S o t h e o n e t h a t w a s c o n f i n i n g t o M i ts u i

c a n n o t b e t h e o n e p r e v io u s ly r e f e r r e d t o a s h a v i n g b e e n w i t h d r a w n t h a t
w o u ld b e a s e c o n d o n e b e c a u s e t h a t c o n fi n e s t o C S R .

T h e o n ly o n e

y o u k n o w i s t h e o n e c o n fi n in g to M i ts u i?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :
10

T h e o n ly o n e I k n o w o f is t h e

o n e c o n f i n e d to M i ts u i y e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h e n i t c o n ti n u e s a n d a g a in I r e a d ,

“ t h e c o m p a n y e x t e n d e d th e c o n tr a c t o f 1 5 E lo c o m o t iv e s i n
2 0 1 0 a n d a g a i n c o n f in e d t o t h e s a m e s u p p li e r.

M e d i a r a is e d

c o n c e r n t h a t t h e c o m p a n y h a d a p p r o v e d t w o c o n fi n e m e n ts
s in c e th e 2 0 0 6 c o n t r a c t a w a r d , h o w e v e r, t h e c o m p a n y h a d
n e v e r c o n fi n e d t o C S R t h e r e f o r e t h e r e s h o u ld b e n o a d v e r s e
p u b lic i ty ” ,
a n d I’ ll s to p th e r e , d o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t t o t h a t m o t iv a ti o n
f o r c o n f in e m e n t t o C S R ?
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

M y o n ly c o m m e n t i s t h a t it ’s a n

u n u s u a l r e a s o n f o r c o n fi n i n g to a fir m o n t h e b a s i s o f p u b lic i ty i f t h e
r e a s o n s a r e s o u n d a n d c u r t a in e d t h e n o n e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e p u b li c i ty, i f
the reasons are not sound and curtained

o n e c a n n o t d e a l w i th t h e

p u b lic i ty i s t h e o n l y c o m m e n t I c a n m a k e t o t h a t.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u , if w e t h e n c o n ti n u e o n , i t

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
c o n c l u d e s b y s ta t in g ,
“The

proposed

confinement

was

in

c o m p li a n c e

to

th e

p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e a p p r o v e d p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e m a n u a l” ,
I w o n ’ t a s k f o r y o u r c o m m e n t a t t h is j u n c t u r e , I ’d lik e y o u to
c o m m e n t o n a fu r t h e r s ta t e m e n t , l a s t l in e o f 2 3 2 th e s ta t e m e n t t h a t
s t a r ts ,
“ a s s u r a n c e w a s g iv e n to t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t t h e c o n f in e m e n t
process was audited by TIA”,
W h a t is T I A ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Tr a n s n e t I n t e r n a l A u d i t .

H a v e y o u h a d s ig h t o f th e a u d it b y T I A ?

MR FRANCIS QUEN TIN CALLARD:

Ye s I h a v e a n d I b e l ie v e t h a t i s

A n n e x u r e – th a t is . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

M r C a l la r d , w h i le y o u s e a r c h , le t ’s l o o k a t

2 3 2 a n d I’ ll r e m i n d y o u w i th r e f e r e n c e t o a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t , i t s a y s ,
“ a s s u r a n c e w a s g iv e n to t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t t h e c o n f in e m e n t
process was audited by TIA”,
H a v e y o u e v e r s e e n a r e p o r t b y T I A r e g a r d i n g i ts a u d i t o f th e
c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s ?
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I have no sight of – had no sight

o f, a m u n a w a r e o f a n y r e p o r t , I s tr e s s t h e w o r d , r e p o r t, b y T I A o n th e
c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d I u s e t h e w o r d p r o c e s s d e l ib e r a te ly.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
CHAIRPERSON :

N o w.. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

Yo u s a i d e a r li e r o n t h a t w h a t e v e r C S R a p p e a r s i n

t h a t p a r a g r a p h , n a m e ly 5 . 2 .2 w h ic h s h o u ld r e a d G E d o e s t h a t a p p l y

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
a ls o th e s e n te n c e to w a r d s t h e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h 2 3 2 t h a t s a y s , h o w e v e r
t h e c o m p a n y h a s n e v e r c o n fi n e d t o C S R , w o u ld – w a s t h a t o n e a ls o
in t e n d e d t o b e G E t h a t C S R ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

M r C h a ir m a n i n m y r e a d i n g o f

t h is a n d r e a d in g o f t h i s p a r a g r a p h I b e l i e v e C S R is t h e r e u s e d i n t h e
c o r r e c t c o n te x t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In i ts c o r r e c t c o n t e x t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : In it ’ c o r r e c t c o n t e x t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Because the company had not

p r e v i o u s ly c o n fi n e d t o C S R , t h e 9 5 l o c o m o tiv e s p r e v i o u s ly r e f e r r e d t o
h a d b e e n o n e o n o p e n te n d e r, t h e r e h a d b e e n n o c o n fi n e m e n t to C S R
s o I b e l i e v e i n t h a t i n s ta n c e i t is i n i ts c o r r e c t c o n t e x t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t f o r th e r e s t i n c o r r e c t o k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CAL LARD:

And the second – the subsequent

o n e , i f I m a y o n t h e t h i r d li n e , “ C R S h a d t h e c a p a c i t y t o p r o d u c e 5 l o c o s
a d a y – l o c o m o ti v e s a d a y ” ,
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y.

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
20

is a ls o i n i t s c o r r e c t c o n te x t o f C S R .

A n d t a k i n g t h a t s e n t e n c e f u r th e r, t h a t i s

w h e r e y o u s a y t h e r e w a s a c l a i m th a t i t c a n c o n ti n u e – p r o d u c e o r h e r e
it s a y s i t c a n t h e r e fo r e p r o d u c e a h u n d r e d l o c o m o tiv e s fo r th e c o m p a n y
w i t h i n a s h o r t s p a c e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

S h o r t s p a c e o f t i m e y e s b u t t h a t is

in C h i n a .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I n C h in a , y o u s a y – y o u i n d ic a te d t h a t y o u

Page 151 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
h a v e n e v e r s e e n t h i s r e p o r t b y In t e r n a l A u d i t a u d i ti n g t h e c o n fi n e m e n t
process.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A s d a t e d h e r e , p l e a s e r e fe r t o y o u r

s u p p l e m e n t a r y B u n d l e B B 4 ( c ) t h e s m a ll B u n d l e in t h e fo l d e r a n d i n
p a r t ic u l a r I’ d li k e to r e fe r y o u t o p a g e t w o o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h 6 .

At

p a r a g r a p h 6 o f y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t y o u s e e k t o i n tr o d u c e a
f u r th e r d o c u m e n t t o y o u r s t a te m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And this you have marked Annexure 13(a).

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s .

A n d C h a ir t h a t d o c u m e n t 1 3 ( a ) i s t o b e

f o u n d a t p a g e 8 o f t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t . N o w h a v i n g r e g a r d t o
w h a t y o u s t a t e d p a r a g r a p h 6 .1 o f y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t, p le a s e
e x p l a i n t o th e C h a ir w h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t t h a t it ’s p r o p o s e d m a r k e d
A n n e x u r e 1 3 ( a ) is ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

A n n e x u r e 1 3 ( a ) is a n e m a il fr o m

A n d r e B o t h a fr o m Tr a n s n e t i n te r n a l a u d it , I d o n o t k n o w h i s th e n
d e s i g n a t io n s u ffic e th a t th e e m a i l a n d a l l th e c o n t e n ts l e a v e n o d o u b t
20

t h a t h e i s fr o m Tr a n s n e t i n te r n a l a u d it a n d it i s t o A n o j S i n g h w i t h a
c o p y to G a r y P i t a a n d i t – t h e s u b s t a n c e o f th is i s ,
“ H i A n o j , a s p e r d i s c u s s i o n a n d u p o n r e v ie w o f t h e m e m o t o
B A D C o n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t, r e q u e s ti n g p r o c u r e m e n t o f a n
a d d it i o n a l h u n d r e d e l e c tr ic a n d 4 3 d i e s e l lo c o m o t iv e s m y
c o m m e n t s a r e a s f o ll o w s ” ,

Page 152 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
I t’s n o t th e c o m m e n t s I w is h t o n e c e s s a r il y d e a l w i th b e c a u s e
t h e y a r e q u i te m u n d a n e , t h e p o i n t w h ic h I w i s h t o d r a w a t t e n t io n to is ,
a s p e r b y d i s c u s s io n a n d r e v i e w o f t h e m e m o t o B A D C , t h a t i s t o s a y
t h is p u r p o r t e d – t h i s T I A a p p r o v a l is l i mi t e d t o a r e a d in g o f th e
memorandum

in

i ts

own

right

w i t h o u t r e fe r e n c e

to

any

of

the

b a c k g r o u n d c o n t e x t o f t h e c h a n g e s a n d / o r p r o c e s s e s w h ic h i t fo ll o w e d .
S o i t is a r e v ie w o f t h e m e m o y e t i n t h e m i n u t e s i t is g iv e n – s ta t e d a s ,
a s s u r a n c e w a s g i v e n to t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t t h e c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s
w a s a u d i te d b y T I A a n d th e r e v i e w o f t h e m e m o t o a n a u d i t o f t h e
10

c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s , I c o n t e n d a r e t w o e n tir e ly s e p a r a t e m a t t e r s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d o n p a g e t w o th e n o f y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 y o u c o n c l u d e w i t h a s t a te m e n t – t h is is t h e
o n ly d o c u m e n t t h a t I c o u l d lo c a t e r e l a ti n g t o t h e r o le p l a y e d b y
Tr a n s n e t i n t e r n a l a u d it in t h e a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e h u n d r e d e le c t r ic a n d
d i e s e l l o c o m o t iv e s b e fo r e th e a c q u i s i t io n w a s a p p r o v e d b y B A D C , y o u
s e e t h a t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Correct yes.

B u t y o u w i ll n o t g o s o f a r a s t o s a y th a t

t h e r e i s n o r e p o r t o f t h e a u d i t o f t h e – th e c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s it s e l f .
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I c o n f ir m I h a v e n o t s e e n , h e a r d

nor found a report.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o m a y b e s o m e o t h e r w i t n e s s m ig h t g u id e u s

t o s u c h a p o in t .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Indeed they may do so, indeed

they may do so.

Page 153 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u l e t’s l o o k th e n , Mr C a l l a r d a t

p a g e 2 3 3 a n d I w o u l d li k e to g e t y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h e a c t u a l
r e s o l u ti o n s o f t h e B A D C a n d t h a t a r e r e fl e c t e d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 . 4 , i f
y o u c o u l d ju s t c o m m e n t – if y o u c o u ld j u s t c o n s id e r t h e m a n d t h e n
c o m m e n t i f y o u p l e a s e . S o r r y i n s o f a r i f I m a y ju s t a d d a s t h e
a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e h u n d r e d l o c o m o t iv e s i s c o n c e r n e d .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W e l l i t is c l e a r t h a t t h i s

r e s o l u ti o n g iv e s e ff e c t to th is m e m o r a n d u m t o p r o c e e d w i t h t h e
c o n fi n e m e n t o r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s t h r o u g h a
10

c o n fi n e m e n t p r o c e s s to C S R a n d p a r ti c u l a r ly i n p a r a g r a p h – s u b
paragraph G,
“ r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t th e B o a r d d e l e g a t e s a u th o r it y t o t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e t o s i g n a n d c o n c l u d e a l l r e le v a n t d o c u m e n t s t o
g iv e e ff e c t t o th e r e s o l u ti o n , i n c lu d in g t h e a w a r d a n d p r o c e s s
approval”.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And as far as that is concerned the last part

o f G , i n c lu d i n g th e a w a r d a n d

process approval we know was

in tr o d u c e d i n t o y o u r d r a f t b y w h o e v e r a m e n d e d y o u r d r a f t , w e d e a l t w i t h
t h a t e a r li e r.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Ye s , y e s .

I’ m p a r ti c u la r l y i n t e r e s te d i n th e n a t u r e o f

t h e r e s o l u ti o n , i f I r e a d B I r e a d th a t t h e c o m m i t t e e r e s o lv e d ,
“ r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e B o a r d a p p r o v e s th e i n v e s t m e n t i n a n d
p r o c u r e m e n t o f h u n d r e d e l e c tr ic l o c o m o t i v e s r e q u ir e d f o r t h e
c o a l e x p o r t li n e e s ti m a t e d a t 3 .8 b i ll i o n ( e x c lu d in g b o r r o w i n g

Page 154 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
c o s ts ) ” ,
W o u l d I b e i n te r p r e ti n g t h is c o r r e c tly i f I s a y, m y u n d e r s t a n d in g
is , w h a t w a s a p p r o v e d a s t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f l o c o m o ti v e s , t h e s iz e a n d
s p e c i f ic a ti o n o f w h i c h is n o t p r o v i d e d f o r, p r e s c r ib e a t a c o s t o f
3 .8 b i ll i o n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s a n d t h e p h r a s e o n e w o u ld u s e
t h e r e i t i s n o t in h e r e b u t t h e p h r a s e t h a t w o u ld c o m m o n l y b e u s e d w i t h
t h is , it is u s e d in t h e m e m o r a n d u m e x t e n s i v e l y, a t a t o ta l e s ti m a t e d c o s t
a n d w e a b b r e v i a t e t h a t i n m a n y d o c u m e n t s t o E T C , th e i m p o r ta n c e o f
10

t h is – o f t h a t p h r a s e is t h a t , t h a t is t h e t o ta l c o s t t o t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
o v e r th e l i fe s p a n o f th e p r o j e c t , t h e t o t a l e s ti m a t e d c o s t .

The one

e x c e p ti o n t o th a t is t h a t i t e x c l u d e s t h e b o r r o w i n g c o s t , if w e h a v e to
r a i s e m o n e y i t e x c lu d e s th e b o r r o w i n g c o s t o f r a is i n g t h a t a m o u n t b u t
o th e r w i s e i ts i n fl a ti o n , f o r e x , e s c a la t io n e v e r y t h in g to h a v e th e p r o d u c t
in i t s f in a l e n ti ty.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d s e c o n d ly t h e c o m m i t t e e – I’ ll r e p h r a s e ,

w h e r e a s y o u r o r i g i n a l m e m o s o u g h t a p p r o v a l fo r c o n fi n e m e n t to M it s u i
f o r t h e a c q u is i t io n o f 1 9 E e l e c tr ic ty p e e q u iv a l e n t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

1 9 E ty p e e q u iv a l e n t l o c o m o tiv e s .

What the Board approved was purchase of a

h u n d r e d e l e c tr ic – n o n - s p e c i fi c e l e c tr ic l o c o m o t iv e s , s o o n t h e b a s i s o f
t h is r e s o l u ti o n o n e c o u ld h a v e b o u g h t a 2 0 E o r a n y o t h e r s e r i e s t h a t i s
a v a i la b le , th e c o m m i t t e e h a d a p p r o v e d th a t .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I t is n o t s p e c i fi c in t h e ty p e o f

lo c o m o t iv e , i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n a n y e l e c tr i c l o c o m o t iv e .

Page 155 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank you, that then has taken us, I think,

t o y o u r p a r a g r a p h 5 3 a t p a g e 11 3 , y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h a ll t h o s e
matters.

So now we know that as at the 24 th of January 2014 BADC

h a d a p p r o v e d t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e h u n d r e d e le c tr i c l o c o m o tiv e s a t t h e
c o s t o f 3 .8 b i ll i o n , d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h a t d e c is i o n o f B A D C a n d
if s o w h e n ?
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t d o th e m i n u t e s r e f le c t, i n a n y

w a y M r C a ll a r d t h a t t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t y o u h a d r a is e d w i th M r G a m a a n d
Mr Jiyane about this were conveyed to the Board Committee at that
10

m e e ti n g i n o n e w a y o r o t h e r, in s u b s t a n c e ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD : I have no way of knowing whether
t h e y w e r e c o n v e y e d i n a n y fo r m w h a ts o e v e r i f t h e y w e r e i t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n u n u s u a l b u t t h e m i n u te s o f th e m e e t i n g d e a li n g w i t h th e
p r o c u r e m e n t a n d a p p r o v a l f o r t h e 1 0 0 d o n o t r e fl e c t t h e r i s k s a n d
c o n c e r n s I r a is e d o r t h e p o t e n t ia l i m p l ic a t io n s o f t h a t tr a n s a c t i o n , t h e y
a r e n o t i n i t e m 5 . 2 2 a n d t h e y a r e n o t e ls e w h e r e in t h e s e m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s I n o , n o I w a s p a r ti c u la r ly c o n fi n i n g y o u t o t h e

m i n u t e s b e c a u s e t h e m in u t e s a r e s i g n e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e
s e c r e t a r y a t th e e n d a n d t h e r e f o r e m u s t b e ta k e n t o b e – a s fa r a s t h e
20

B o a r d i s c o n c e r n e d a t l e a s t , t h e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e m u s t b e t a k e n to b e
a c o r r e c t r e f l e c ti o n o f t h e m a tt e r s d i s c u s s e d a n d t h e i s s u e s d i s c u s s e d
a t t h e m e e t in g .

S o y o u s a y, a s f a r a s y o u h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e

m i n u t e s y o u h a v e n o t p ic k e d u p a n y t h in g t h a t s u g g e s ts t h a t t h e B o a r d
C o m m i t t e e w a s a le r t e d t o t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t y o u h a d r a is e d w it h o r
w i t h o u t m e n ti o n i n g y o u r n a m e ?

Page 156 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t M r C h a ir I fi n d

n o t h i n g i n th e s e m in u t e s r e l a ti n g t o th e c o n c e r n s r a is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Thank you, and correct me if I am wrong Mr

C a ll a r d b u t t h e B A D C w o u l d i n te n d a n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o t h e
f u ll B o a r d , is t h a t h o w t h e s y s t e m w o r k e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

D e p e n d i n g o n th e l e v e l o f t h e

d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty a n d t h e v a lu e o f th e tr a n s a c t i o n c o n c e r n e d th e y
w o u ld m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n to t h e f u l l B o a r d , s o y e s , t h is s h o u ld g o t o
10

t h e – i t ’s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h is w o u l d b e – g o t o th e B o a r d a s p e r
t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e in 5 . 9 .7 a n d f u r t h e r – a g r e e d a n d f u r th e r s u b m i t t e d to
t h e B o a r d f o r i n fo r m a t i o n p u r p o s e s , t h is i m p l ie s th a t B A D C i s t a k i n g t h e
d e c is i o n .

I t ’s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t t h is i s o u t s i d e o f B A D C ’s

d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h e n y o u r e a d th e m in u te s w h a t i s r e fl e c t e d is

t h a t th e B A D C t h e ir a t t i tu d e t o w a r d s t h a t t h e m a i n B o a r d w o u l d o n l y
r e c e i v e th e s e m in u t e s j u s t f o r i n fo r m a t io n o n ly, n o t to m a k e a n y
d e c is i o n s b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d h a v e m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n t h e ms e lv e s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :
20

T h a t i s m y r e a d in g o f t h is

paragraph yes.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

L e t ’s t r y a n d b e p r e c i s e M r C a ll a r d , l e t’s g o

b a c k t o 5 2 4 , b e c a u s e m y r e a d in g w o u ld b e s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t , a t 5 2 4 a t
p a g e 2 3 3 a n d I r e a d , it r e a d s ,
“ r e s o lv e d

that

the

Committee:

B

recommended,

r e c o m m e n d s t h a t t h e B o a r d a p p r o v e s th e i n v e s t m e n t” .

Page 157 of 200

I

guess

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
S o th a t w o u l d i m p ly t h a t B o a r d a p p r o v a l w a s s ti ll r e q u ir e d .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

M y a p o l o g ie s I w a s r e a d i n g t h e

t o t a l c o s t o f o w n e r s h i p y o u a r e c o r r e c t , I r e tr a c t i t is c o r r e c t , G i s
correct.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y s o a l l th e s e r e s o l u ti o n s w o u ld t h e n b e

p u t t o – b e f o r e t h e B o a r d f o r th e B o a r d t o a p p r o v e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t – w e k n o w t h a t – w e k n o w fr o m t h e e m a il t h a t
M r G a m a s e n t to M r S in g h o n th e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y, i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tly.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

That after reading your concerns in your emai l, Mr

G a m a t h o u g h t th a t w h a t y o u h a d b e e n a s k e d t o e ff e c t t o y o u r m e m o
m a d e t h e w h o l e m e m o to b e a m e s s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s th e te r m h e u s e d .

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

Now if, in s ubstance, the document that was placed

b e f o r e th e B A D C – t h e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e t h a t d e a l t w i th t h i s i s s u e , i f
t h e m e m o t h a t w a s p l a c e d b e fo r e t h e m i n c o r p o r a t e d , in e s s e n c e , t h e
20

s a m e is s u e s w h ic h h a d c a u s e d y o u t o b e c o n c e r n e d i n t h e w a y y o u
in d i c a t e d Mr G a m a t o M r J iy a n e t h e n o n e w o u l d b e e n ti tl e d t o s a y,
u s i n g M r G a m a ’s o w n w o r d s , “ th e r e f o r e w h a t w a s p u t b e f o r e t h a t
committee was a mess”.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I a g r e e .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d o n e w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t h e w o u ld n o t h a v e

Page 158 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w a n t e d a m e m o t h a t w a s a m e s s t o b e p la c e d b e f o r e th e B o a r d
C o m m i t t e e a n d t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a m e n d e d a p p r o p r i a t e ly s o th a t
w h a t w a s p u t b e f o r e t h e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e w o u ld b e a p r o p e r t h i n g , a
proper document.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
CHAIRPERSON :

I concur yes.

Because what was

placed

before

the

Board

C o m m i t t e e c o u l d in f lu e n c e t h e c o m m i t t e e w h e th e r i t r e c o m m e n d e d o r
d i d n o t r e c o m m e n d w h a t i t w a s a s k e d to r e c o m m e n d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Indeed so.

Ye s .

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

I n t h a t s e n s e th e i n f o r m a t io n

w h ic h t h e c o m m i t te e i s g i v e n o r t h e c o m m i t te e m a k e s i t s d e c i s i o n o n is
b y a n d l a r g e a n d w i th r a r e e x c e p ti o n , i t i s b o u n d e d b y t h e in f o r m a t io n
c o n ta in e d i n th e m e m o r a n d u m . I f t h e in f o r m a t io n i n th e m e m o r a n d u m i s
in c o m p l e t e a n d / o r m is l e a d i n g a n d t h e c o m m i t t e e h a s n o fr a m e o f
r e fe r e n c e w i t h w h ic h to c h a l l e n g e t h a t in f o r m a ti o n i t c a n o n ly m a k e i t s
d e c is i o n o n th e i n f o r m a t i o n c o n t a i n e d i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m in th e b e l i e f
t h a t w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m is t r u e a n d c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Th a n k y o u .

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Now that we’ve

e s t a b li s h e d t h a t t h e d e c is io n o r r e s o l u t io n s o f t h e B A D C m u s t b e
p r e s e n t e d t o t h e B o a r d a r e y o u a w a r e o f w h e t h e r o r n o t th e B o a r d h a d
o c c a s i o n t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I h a v e n o t p e r s o n a lly s e e n a n d

f o ll o w e d u p o n th e m i n u t e s o f t h a t B o a r d m e e t in g , I h a v e to b e l i e v e th a t

Page 159 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
it

was

given

e ff e c t

to

because

we

know

that

the

necessary

a u t h o r i s a t io n s a n d w a r r a n ts a n d – w e n t fo r w a r d t o p r o c u r e t h e h u n d r e d
lo c o m o t iv e s fr o m C S R s o I tr u s t , a t t h e m o m e n t , th a t i t w e n t t h r o u g h
t h e B o a r d b u t I h a v e n o t s e e n t h e B o a r d m in u te s d e a l in g w i t h t h is o n e I
h a v e o n ly r e f e r e n c e d th e B A D C m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e – y o u h a v e n ’t h a d a c c e s s to a n y t h i n g t h a t m a y

h a v e b e e n s e n t t o t h e fu ll B o a r d i n a n y w a y a f te r th is m e e t i n g o f th is
committee that you can remember?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
10

I have seen and have had

a c c e s s t o t h e B o a r d a g e n d a s , a g e n d a a n d s o m e t i m e s t h e i n d iv i d u a l
s u b m is s io n s t o t h e B o a r d b u t t h e a c t u a l m i n u t e s o f t h e B o a r d m e e t in g
it s e l f t h a t d e a l t w i th t h i s i te m , n o I h a v e n o t s e e n o r h a d a c c e s s t o .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

G o i n g b a c k to th a t p a r a g r a p h w i th w h ic h w e

d e a lt q u it e a t s o m e l e n g t h e a r li e r o n in t h e m i n u t e s o f t h a t m e e t in g o f
t h is b o a r d c o m m i t te e w h e r e y o u s a i d r e f e r e n c e s t o G E E w e r e m e n –
s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t o C S R . I t a k e i t t h a t t h e p e o p l e w h o s p o k e t o t h is
is s u e a t t h e – a t th e – t h is m e e ti n g o f t h e b o a r d c o m m i t t e e c o u l d n o t
h a v e s p o k e n lik e th a t o r it i s u n l ik e l y t h e y c o u l d h a v e s p o k e n li k e t h a t
b e c a u s e th e y m u s t h a v e k n o w n w h a t – w h a t is C S R a n d w h a t is G E a n d
20

t h a t m a y b e th e r e mi g h t ju s t h a v e b e e n a mi s ta k e i n t h e p e r s o n w h o
p r e p a r e d t h e m i n u te s . W o u ld t h a t – w o u l d it b e f a i r t o s a y th a t ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I b e li e v e t h a t t o b e t h e c a s e Mr

C h a ir m a n I a m n o t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I h a v e s e e n a c o r r e c t io n to t h e

Page 160 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
m i n u t e s la t e r a n d a s u b s e q u e n t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u h a v e s e e n it ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W h i c h d i d r e f l e c t t h is c o r r e c t io n . I
have not included it but I…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u h a v e s e e n it ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s I h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I d o r e c a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

A n d fi r m ly b e l i e v e t h a t th a t

c o r r e c t io n e x i s t s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s .

S o t h e p e o p le w h o m a y h a v e b e e n

c o n fu s e d w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n t h e p e o p l e w h o s p o k e t o t h e – to t h e
is s u e a t th e m e e ti n g i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e c o m p i le r o f th e m i n u t e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

I – y e s I b e l ie v e t h a t t o b e t h e

case.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I f ir m ly b e li e v e t h a t t o t h e c a s e

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e – w e m o v e o n th e n t o a
m a t t e r w e h a d a lr e a d y to u c h e d o n b e fo r e I t h i n k t h e l u n c h b r e a k a t y o u r
p a r a g r a p h 5 4 w h i c h i s y o u r – th e fir s t r e s p o n s e b y M r G a m a t o y o u r

Page 161 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
e m a i l o f 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 a n d I a m – w e a r e n o w a t p a g e 1 3 . Yo u d e a l
w i t h t h is a t p a r a g r a p h 5 4 . A n d y o u h a d i n d ic a te d t h a t t h a t is t h e o n l y
c o m m u n ic a ti o n y o u r e c e i v e d i n r e s p o n s e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d y o u m a k e th e s t a te m e n t th is w a s n o t

f o ll o w e d u p . Ar e y o u s u g g e s t in g i t w a s n o t f o l l o w e d u p b y y o u r – e i t h e r
by your – neither by yourself nor Mr Gama?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

N e it h e r.

Received the sms, read

it , t h a n k y o u , f il e d a n d m o v e d o n .
10

A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

A t t h is p o in t w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t M r G a m a

h a d c o m m u n ic a te d y o u r c o n c e r n s t o Mr S i n g h ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : N o . I o n ly b e c a m e a w a r e o f th e s e
e m a i ls s h o r tly a r o u n d th e ti m e o f p r e p a r i n g m y s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e G C E a t t h a t t i m e w a s it M r Br i a n M o le f e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e c a u s e i n h i s – i n h is s m s to y o u Mr G a m a s a y s
h e w o u l d e x p l a i n to y o u t h e G C E ’s t h in k i n g . N o w th a t s u g g e s ts t o m e
a n d I j u s t w a n t to fi n d o u t w h e t h e r y o u a ls o h a v e t h e s a m e t h in k i n g .
T h a t s u g g e s ts t o m e t h a t w h a t h e i s s a y i n g is t h a t t h e s e c h a n g e s t h a t
20

y o u w e r e a s k e d t o e ff e c t t o y o u r m e m o a b o u t w h ic h y o u e x p r e s s e d
c o n c e r n to h i m a n d t o M r G i a n i in y o u r e m a i l o f t h e 2 3 J a n u a r y t h e
p e r s o n w h o k n o w s a b o u t t h e t h i n k in g w h a t th e t h i n k in g b e h i n d t h e m
w a s , w a s t h e G C E t h a t i s th e m e a n i n g I a t ta c h t o t h i s . D o y o u a t ta c h
the same meaning?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I a t ta c h t h e s a m e m e a n in g .

Page 162 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o i f t h a t in t e r p r e ta t io n is c o r r e c t m a y b e w e a r e

g e t t in g f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e t h a t th e p e r s o n w h o m a y h a v e d e c id e d w e d o
n o t w h e t h e r h e d e c id e d b u t t h e p e r s o n w h o m a y h a v e d e c id e d th a t
t h e r e s h o u l d b e t h e s e c h a n g e s m a y h a v e b e e n t h e G C E . B u t c e r ta i n ly
w e a r e to ld h e k n o w s t h e t h i n k in g b e h i n d t h e m .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

I i n t e r p r e t – I c o n c u r w i th y o u r

in t e r p r e t a ti o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Fr o m t h e r e a d i n g o f t h i s s m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e ju s t d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
CHAIRPERSON : He made the decision.
MR

FRANCIS

Q U E N T IN

C A L LA R D :

I

make

CALLARD :

To

th e

the

r e tr o s p e c ti v e

c o n n e c t io n o f d o ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR

FRANCIS

QUENTIN

w i th d r a w a l

of

the

m e m o r a n d u m o n t h e O c to b e r t o M i ts u i w h e n i t h a d g o n e t h r o u g h t h e f u ll
20

p r o c e s s a n d w a s w i th d r a w n b y t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I j u s t m a k e t h a t c o n n e c t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B u t I [ in d i s t i n c t ] n o m o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 163 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d o n th a t s c o r e h a v e y o u e v e r h a d

o p p o r t u n i ty t o d is c u s s w i t h M r S in g h t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t y o u h a d
e x p r e s s e d i n t h e e m a il t o Mr G a m a o n 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 ?
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

N o I n e v e r f o l lo w e d i t u p w i t h M r

S i n g h b e c a u s e I d id n o t k n o w o f M r G a m a ’s e m a i l to M r S in g h s o I
p r e s u m e d , a s s u m e d a t th e ti m e t h a t i t h a d d i e d w i t h M r G i a n i a n d M r
Gama.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : At the time?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :
10

A t t h e ti m e th a t w a s t h e c o n t e x t

w i t h [i n d is t in c t ] o p e r a t e t o d i s c o v e r l a t e r t h a t in f a c t i t h a d g o n e m u c h
f u r th e r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e a r e n o w o n t h e 1 8 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 a t y o u r
p a r a g r a p h 5 5 c a n y o u t a k e u s fr o m t h a t p o i n t?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : R e c a lli n g t h a t m y m e m o r a n d u m t o
M r S in g h a n d Mr G a m a w a s a b o u t th e in c o r r e c t s p e c i fic a ti o n o f t h e s e
lo c o m o t iv e s o r th e ir te c h n i c a l i n c o m p a ti b ili t y a n d t h a t th e y w e r e n o t
s u i t a b l e t h a t t h e 9 5 w a s n o t a s u i t a b le lo c o m o t iv e .

I g ot to hear

t h r o u g h e m a il s fr o m m y t e c h n ic a l c o ll e a g u e s th a t o n t h e 1 8 Fe b r u a r y M r
K u y s w h o w a s t h e n a Pr o j e c t D ir e c t o r C a p i ta l P r o g r a m m e i n Fr e i g h t
20

R a il h a d e m a il e d t h a t th e 1 0 0 h e a v y h a u l c o a l li n e lo c o m o t iv e s h a d
b e e n a p p r o v e d . A p o l o g i e s . A n d t h a t a s p e c i fi c a t i o n w a s r e q u ir e d f o r
t e n d e r i n g p u r p o s e s . T h e 2 0 E s p e c i f ic a ti o n t h a t w a s t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n
f o r t h e l o c o m o t iv e s th e 9 5 lo c o m o t iv e s fr o m C S R w a s to b e u s e d w h ic h
w a s a n d f o r g iv e m e a b o b o a t e c h n i c a l c o m m e n t to a f o u r a x il
lo c o m o t iv e a n d v a r io u s a d j u s t m e n ts w e r e d e t a i le d .

Page 164 of 200

T h e s p e c i fi c a t io n

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w a s r e q u ir e d b y t h e e v e n i n g o f t h e 1 9 Fe b r u a r y. T h e u r g e n c y o f t h is i s
in A n n e x u r e 1 5 . O n t h e 2 0 F e b r u a r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h o w a s – w a s s o m e b o d y b e i n g a s k e d to
d o t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : And was it you?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o n o t m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s n o t y o u b u t s o m e b o d y w a s b e i n g a s k e d to d o
it ?
10

MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD:

S o m e b o d y w a s b e in g a s k e d t o

p r e p a r e th e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Because I was close by my

t e c h n ic a l c o ll e a g u e s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : K e p t m e in f o r m e d o f t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W e h a v e to r e d o t h e s p e c i fi c a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I f I m a y j u s t q u ic k ly a s k y o u a q u e s ti o n ?

I

h a v e – d o y o u h a v e th e a c tu a l a n n e x u r e b e f o r e y o u i t i s a t p a g e 2 6 9 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n n e x u r e 1 5 . 1 5 w h i c h is
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : 269.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P a g e 2 6 9 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o w a t th e s e c o n d li n e o f t h a t e m a il a n d t h e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
s e c o n d s e n t e n c e it r e a d s a n d I q u o t e :
“ I t w a s d e c i d e d t h a t t h e 2 0 E s p e c i fic a ti o n b e u s e d
f o r a b o g o lo c o m o t iv e w i t h t h e fo ll o w i n g a d j u s t m e n ts
a d d e n d u m s .”
A n d I w ill g o t o i t e m 3 u n d e r t h a t s ta t e m e n t .
“ Ax i l lo a d s b e li m i t e d t o a m a x i m u m o f 2 6 t o n n e p e r
a x i l .”
Do you know who took the decision to use 20 E – I see that you are
c o p i e d i n t h i s m a i l?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO : By Mr Kuys. Do you know when Mr Kuys s ays
it w a s d e c i d e d t h a t 2 0 E s p e c i f ic a t i o n b e u s e d , w h o s e d e c is i o n th a t
was?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:
w a s p e r s e a t a n i n d iv id u a l l e v e l.

I d o n o t k n o w w h o s e d e c is i o n i t
A t a g r o u p l e v e l o r a t a c o l l e c ti v e

le v e l it w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h is t e c h n ic a l t e a m b u t t h e d e c is io n m a k e s
s e n s e o r I c o n c u r r e d w i t h – c o n c u r w i th t h is d e c is io n b e c a u s e t h e o n ly
lo c o m o t iv e w e h a d fr o m C S R w a s t h e 9 5 . So to g e t a lo c o m o t iv e fr o m
C S R s u i t a b l e f o r th e c o a l l in e o n e h a d t w o o p ti o n s . Yo u e i t h e r n o w g o
20

t h r o u g h a t o t a l b r a n d n e w d e v e l o p m e n t o f a n e w l o c o m o ti v e o r y o u t a k e
t h e ir e x is ti n g lo c o m o t iv e a n d y o u s a y w e ll h o w c a n w e n o w r e d e s i g n
t h is m o d i fy i t t o m a k e i t s u it a b l e f o r w h a t it w a s i n te n d e d t o b e f o r t h e
ty p e t h a t w e w a n t e d f o r t h e c o a l l i n e . A n d t h i s w a s t h e n th e e s s e n c e o f
t h is e m a i l . W h a t d o w e h a v e to d o t o t h a t 9 5 – t h o s e 9 5 l o c o m o ti v e s o r
t h a t ty p e t h a t 2 0 E t y p e t o m a k e i t s u i t a b l e fo r t h e c o a l li n e ?

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d b a s e d o n y o u r – I t h in k w h a t y o u t e s t i fi e d
t o e a r l i e r 2 0 E lo c o m o t iv e s w a s i t 2 2 to n n e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It w a s a 2 2 t o n n e p e r a x il y e s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d fo r c o a l h a u li n g u n i t a t a 2 6 to n n e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o i f o n e lo o k s b e l o w t h e i t e m s 1 t o 4 w h e r e i t
s t a te s a n d I q u o t e :
“ I n e ffe c t t h is w ill i m p ly t h a t th e p r e s e n t 2 0 E w il l b e
b a ll a s t e d f o r i n c r e a s e d t r a c t iv e e ff o r t .”
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y b e f o r e I o ff e r m y u n d e r s t a n d in g l e t m e

ask for yours. What does that mean?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

W h a t th a t m e a n s is t h e y w e r e

g o i n g t o t a k e t h e 2 0 E l o c o m o t iv e w h i c h i s 2 2 t o n n e s p e r a x il a n d th e y
w e r e g o in g t o a d d a l o t o f s t e e l t o it to m a k e it h e a v ie r. T h a t is w h a t
they were going to do.

T h e y w e r e th e n g o i n g t o s t r e n g th e n t h e

c o u p l e r s , s tr e n g th e n t h e s u s p e n s i o n b e c a u s e t h e y a d d i n g a l l t h is s t e e l
t o i t . T h e y w e r e g o i n g t o ta k e t h e tr a c t io n m o t o r s a n d t h e y w e r e g o in g
t o i n c r e a s e th e p o w e r o f t h e t r a c ti o n m o t o r s .
20

Th e c o n tr o l s y s t e m

e ffe c t iv e l y th e d r iv in g s y s t e m w o u l d r e m a i n la r g e l y u n a l t e r e d .

They

w o u ld in c r e a s e t h e – c h a n g e th e c o u p le r s o f th e l o c o m o t iv e s .

The

c o u p l e r s o f t h e l o c o m o ti v e s is t h a t p a r t a t t h e f r o n t a n d r e a r o f t h e
lo c o m o t iv e s p a r tic u la r ly t h e r e a r w h e r e i t p u ll s th e w a g o n s n o w n e e d s
t o b e s t r e n g t h e n e d b e c a u s e o f t h e g r e a t e r p o w e r b e c a u s e o f t h e lo n g e r
tr a i n s .

T h e s e a r e t h e m o d i f ic a t i o n s w h ic h w o u l d b e r e q u i r e d f o r th e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
lo c o m o t iv e s . O f w h ic h t h e m a i n o n e t h o u g h a d d t h is w h o le lo t o f s t e e l ,
c h a n g e t h e s u s p e n s i o n , c h a n g e t h e tr a n s f o r m e r b e c a u s e i t n o w h a s to
take in more power from the ov erhead catenary and increase the power
o f t h e t r a c t i o n p o w e r.

S o e ff e c ti v e ly y o u g o in g t h r o u g h a fa ir ly m a j o r

e x e r c is e o n t h is lo c o m o t iv e .

T h is is w h a t th e y h a d t o d o t o t h e 2 0 E

lo c o m o t iv e f r o m C S R n o w t o m a k e i t s u i t a b le f o r c o a l l in e o p e r a ti o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d th a t c h a n g e …
CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry before that.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h a t a n a t te m p t t o a d d r e s s o n e th e c o n c e r n s y o u
had made in your email?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I t a d d r e s s e d – e x a c tly i t a d d r e s s e d
t h o s e e x a c t c o n c e r n s o n m y e m a il .
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

B u t – b u t w h e th e r o r n o t i t is s u c c e s s f u lly

a d d r e s s e d i t m ig h t b e a n o th e r q u e s ti o n b u t i t w a s in t e n d e d to a d d r e s s
one of them?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o n o w y o u w il l e n d u p w i t h a 2 6 t o n n e h e a v y
20

h a u l l o c o m o tiv e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W i th th e s e s p e c i fi c a t i o n s .

And on your

p a r a g r a p h 5 5 y o u s a y th e e m a i l t h a t c a m e to y o u is d a t e d t h e 1 8 t h a n d
t h e s e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s a n d a d j u s t m e n ts h a d to b e e ffe c t e d a n d b e r e a d y
f o r t h e 1 9 t h Fe b r u a r y ?

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M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : L a s t l in e o f y o u r p a g e 5 5 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : L a s t li n e p a g e 5 5 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O : Paragraph 55 apologies.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Ye s s p e c i f ic a ti o n w a s r e q u i r e d b y
the evening of 19 February correct.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. T h e n w e g o o n to t h e 2 0 t h o n p a r a g r a p h
56 what happens next?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : W e ll o n t h e 2 0 t h M r H a r r is a n o th e r
10

t e c h n ic a l c o l le a g u e e m a i le d M r G i a n i o r s o r r y e m a i le d t h e u p d a t e d
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s f o r c o a l li n e l o c o m o tiv e s .

W h e n h e e m a il e d t h a t a n d

c o p i e d t h a t to m e a t t a c h e d w a s a l e tt e r o f i n t e r e s t . B e c a u s e a t t a c h e d
w a s a l e t te r i n d ic a te d t h a t o n t h e 1 9 F e b r u a r y a t a m e e ti n g a t t e n d e d b y
M r G i a n i a n d M s M d l e ts h e a n d r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f C S R t h a t te c h n ic a l –
a n d th e te c h n i c a l p e r s o n n e l o f Fr e i g h t R a il r e s p o n s ib l e f o r l o c o m o ti v e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s t h e y d i s c u s s e d t h e s e c h a n g e s t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d t o t h e
2 0 E l o c o m o ti v e to m a k e i t c o m p a t ib le . W h a t I t h o u g h t r a th e r s tr a n g e
a t t h e ti m e w a s th a t h e r e w a s o u r t e c h n ic a l t e a m w i t h t h e C h ie f – w i th
t h e S u p p ly C h a i n O ff ic e r, r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s f r o m t h e S u p p l y C h a i n O ffic e r
20

a n d t h e t e c h n ic a l p e r s o n n e l n o w d is c u s s in g th e t e c h n i c a l c h a n g e s
r e q u ir e d t o t h e s e l o c o m o t iv e s .

The reason for that concern was that

C S R a s I w il l a d d r e s s in a m o m e n t h a d n o t y e t b e e n f o r m e r ly in v i t e d t o
s u b m i t a p r o p o s a l f o r th e l o c o m o t iv e s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO : So if I may?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d y o u r e f e r e n c e A n n e x u r e 1 6 w h ic h a p p e a r s
a t p a g e 2 7 2 a n d t h is r e g a r d – t h e c o n c e r n y o u h a v e i s M r K u y s a n d h is
t e a m a r e r e q u e s t e d t o c o n s i d e r t h a t 2 0 E s p e c i f ic a ti o n s , m a k e t h e
necessary changes.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : To b r i n g it t o t h e le v e l o f a 1 9 E ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h a t is a 2 6 to n n e h a u l a g e c a p a c i ty a n d to

p r o v i d e t h a t b y t h e 1 9 Fe b r u a r y ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d a t y o u r A n n e x u r e 1 6 is a l e tt e r a d d r e s s e d
t o M r K u y s i t is d a t e d th e 1 9 F e b r u a r y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : T h e 1 9 F e b r u a r y y e s a n d i t is f r o m
Mr Pavit.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d th is i s a l e t t e r fr o m M r P a v i t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : N o w u n fo r t u n a t e l y a l t h o u g h t h e e m a i l c a n te ll
u s w h e n it w a s r e c e iv e d t h is le t t e r a s c u r r e n t ly s t a n d s d o e s n o t te ll u s
w h a t ti m e o n t h e 1 9 Fe b r u a r y t h is w a s g e n e r a t e d a n d r e c e iv e d ?

20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

T h a t I d o h a v e t h a t e m a il a n d it

w a s – a n d i t is a v a i l a b l e . I m u s t a d m i t I d id n o t in c l u d e t h a t o n e b u t
y e s it is a v a i la b l e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. Th e – m y q u e s ti o n i s w h e t h e r M r K u y s
h a d b e e n s u c c e s s f u l in p r o v i d i n g t h e s p e c if ic a ti o n fo r t h is n e w
lo c o m o t iv e b y t h e e v e n i n g o f 1 9 F e b r u a r y w h e n o r w h e th e r w h e n th is

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
d is c u s s io n w a s h a d t h a t w o r k w a s s ti ll u n d e r w a y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s i t w a s b e c a u s e w e – t h e r e is
t h e e m a i l fr o m Mr K u y s t o M r G i a n i w i t h t h e u p d a t e d s p e c i fic a ti o n .

I

d i d n o t p u t t h a t o n e i n h e r e b u t t h a t e m a i l e x is ts w h ic h s h o w s t h a t th e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n w a s r e v is e d a n d s e n t t o M r G ia n i o n t h e 2 0 t h – I b e li e v e
t h e 2 0 F e b r u a r y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And I see at your Annexure 16 mid -way the

d o c u m e n t a n d I t h in k y o u r e fe r r e d t o t h i s i s s u e . I t r e a d s :
“ T h e h e a d i n g o f t h e d o c u m e n t is R e q u ir e m e n ts a n d
R e v i s e d S p e c i f ic a ti o n f o r a n a d d it i o n a l 1 0 0 d u a l

10

v o l t a g e lo c o m o t iv e s .”
M i d - w a y th a t d o c u m e n t b e fo r e t h e b u ll e t p o i n ts t h e r e is a s t a t e m e n t
quote:
“ T h e m a in r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e d is c u s s e d w it h C S R i n
t h e p r e s e n c e o f M r T h a m s a n q a G ia n i a n d M s L in d i w e
M d le t s h e .”
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

N o w y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t a t l e a s t o n th e 1 9

F e b r u a r y C S R h a d n o t y e t b e e n i n f o r m e d t h a t a te n d e r s h o u l d b e is s u e d
20

c o n fi n e d t o C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d o n t h e 1 9 t h C S R is p a r t o f a d is c u s s i o n
a r o u n d s p e c i fi c a t io n o f a te n d e r t o b e is s u e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : D o y o u k n o w w h e n t h e a c tu a l R F P w e n t o u t t o

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
c o n fi n e t h i s a c q u i s i ti o n t o C S R ?
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Ye s th e R F P w e n t o u t a n d t h e

m e m o r a n d u m s i g n e d b y M r M o l e f e w h ic h is n o t p a r t o f t h is w a s d a t e d
t h e 2 6 F e b r u a r y a s k in g C S R t o p le a s e s u b m i t a p r o p o s a l f o r a 1 0 0
e l e c tr ic l o c o m o ti v e s e s s e n ti a lly a r o u n d a n d it q u o t e s th e s p e c i – t h i s
d is c u s s io n a n d t h e s e c h a n g e s a n d i t a s k s fo r t h a t p r o p o s a l t o b e
r e tu r n e d b y th e e i th e r th e 2 0 – it w e n t o u t o n t h e 2 6 t h a n d I b e l ie v e th e
r e tu r n d a t e w a s t h e 2 8 F e b r u a r y.
ADV
10

MAHLAPE

SELLO:

So

C SR

was

part

of

d e s i g n in g

the

s p e c i f ic a ti o n o n w h ic h t h e y w il l te n d e r ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

B e f o r e th e y w e r e i n f o r m e d t h a t

they were to be awarded.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : O r a s k e d to s u b m i t a p r o p o s a l o n a
c o n fi n e d e n q u ir y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e r e y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h a t e n d e r t h a t is to b e
c o n fi n e d t o o n e e n ti ty d o e s i t m a k e a n y d i f f e r e n c e t h a t t h e y g e t t o k n o w
20

a b o u t o r g e t – j a t h e y g e t t o k n o w a b o u t t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n b e f o r e t h e y
a r e i n fo r m e d w h e r e in t h e e n d t h e y a r e t h e o n ly o n e s a n y w a y w h o w il l
b e in v o lv e d i n t h e t e n d e r.
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : P e r h a p s i n th e s u b s t a n c e M r C h a ir
it m a k e s n o d i ff e r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R FR A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D :

P e r h a p s i n t h e – b u t i n th e

procedural aspect.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t i t d o e s
m a k e a d i ffe r e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B e c a u s e w h a t t h is w o u l d i m p ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d w h a t t h is – m y r e a d i n g o f th is .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T IN C A L L A R D :

Is t h a t c o m m u n ic a t i o n s w i t h t h e

s u p p li e r e v e n o n t h is n a t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

W o u l d t a k e p l a c e o n ly w h e n th e y

h a d b e e n o ff ic ia ll y i n fo r m e d t h r o u g h th e a p p r o p r i a t e c h a n n e ls w h ic h
w o u ld b e t h e l e tt e r f r o m w h ic h e v e r d e l e g a t e d a u th o r i ty in t h i s c a s e M r
M o le f e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : G iv e n th e v a l u e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n
20

t o t h e s u p p l i e r t o s a y w e a r e a s k in g y o u f o r a p r o p o s a l .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : P le a s e d e v e l o p a p r o p o s a l. T h e n
t h e d is c u s s io n s a n d e n g a g e m e n ts a r o u n d th e te c h n i c a l is s u e s w o u ld
t a k e p la c e f o r th e p r o p o s a l t o b e r e t u r n e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : I t i s n o t p o s s i b l e fo r a s u p p l ie r t o
d e v e l o p a p r o p o s a l fo r 1 0 0 l o c o m o tiv e s p r i c e d p r o p o s a l b e a r i n g i n m i n d
t h a t t h e r e a r e m a n y t h i n g s w h ic h g o in t o d e v e l o p in g a p r o p o s a l f o r a
3 .8 b il li o n tr a n s a c ti o n . O n e d o e s n o t d o t h a t i n t h r e e d a y s w h ic h w a s
the date of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f in e . Th a t is a d i ff e r e n t p o i n t.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t is a d i ffe r e n t p o in t .

Yo u s e e i t c e r t a i n l y w o u l d

b e u n a c c e p ta b le i f f o r t h e m t o h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d i n t h e – i n d e s i g n i n g
10

t h e s p e c if ic a ti o n i f i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a n o p e n te n d e r t h a t is f o r s u r e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r w h e r e a lr e a d y a d e c is i o n
h a s b e e n t a k e n t h a t a p a r t ic u l a r e n ti ty is t h e o n ly e n ti t y to w h ic h t h e
t e n d e r w o u ld b e c o n f i n e d . W h e t h e r t h e y k n o w b e f o r e t h e y – t h e y k n o w
t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n b e f o r e th e y a r e fo r m a l ly t o l d o r w h e th e r t h e y k n o w i t
a ft e r w h e th e r i t m a k e s a n y d i ff e r e n c e .

I a m th i n k i n g a l o u d I a m n o t

s u r e . I a m ju s t t e s ti n g .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is a m o o d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is s t r a n g e a b o u t i t .
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is a m o o d p o i n t Mr C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QU ENTIN CALLARD : As you say in that sense it makes
– d o e s i t m a t t e r b u t t h e – m y u n d e r s t a n d in g
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

O f t h e p o li c i e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
m a n u a l is .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W e h a v e a p p r o v a l t o c o n f in e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

A n d y o u g r a n t m e t h e r e is – w e

have that approval to confine.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I c a n n o t d i s c u s s w i t h t h e s u p p li e r.

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e d e ta ils o f w h a t h e i s t o s u p p ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : B e c a u s e w e d o n o t h a v e t h a t le t t e r
– h e d o e s n o t h a v e t h a t l e t t e r – I d o n o t h a v e t h a t l e tt e r o f a u th o r i ty to
t a lk t o h i m y e t t h a t c o m e s o n c e h e h a s b e e n i n f o r m e d , r e q u e s t e d f o r a
p r o p o s a l p e r th a t s i g n a t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Til l h e h a s th a t le t t e r, ti ll th a t

le t t e r h a s f o r m a lly b e e n i s s u e d to t h e s u p p li e r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

Th a t l e tt e r c a n b e w i th d r a w n a t

any time.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Pr o c u r a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD:

T h e r e fo r e a n y d is c u s s i o n s w h i c h

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
w e m a y h a v e a n d I m a y b e g iv i n g a p o t e n t ia l s u p p l ie r t h r o u g h t h e s e
d is c u s s io n s a f a ls e a n d a n in c o r r e c t i m p r e s s io n I m a y b e o f a le t t e r t o
c o m e w h ic h m ig h t n o t c o m e . T h e f a c t th a t in t h is c a s e i t w a s c o m in g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : B u t t h a t is t h e m o o d p o i n t a b o u t it
p r o c e d u r a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L L A R D : Th e s u p p li e r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n – I
c o n te n d s h o u l d h a v e b e e n in p o s s e s s io n o f t h e le t t e r r e q u e s t i n g t h e
10

q u o t a t i o n o r a p r o p o s a l t h e n o n e g o e s t h r o u g h t h e d e t a il te c h n ic a l
d is c u s s io n s t o t h e p r o p o s a l th e n th e s u p p li e r s u b m i t s h is q u o ta t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e m a y b e t h e p o i n t – m a y b e th e p o i n t s h o u l d b e
t h a t t h e y s h o u ld n o t b e i n v o l v e d i n t h e d e s ig n in g o f th e s p e c i fi c a t io n a t
a l l w h e t h e r i t i s b e fo r e o r a ft e r th e y h a v e r e c e iv e d n o t i - y o u k n o w
o ffic i a l n o ti f ic a t i o n .

What do you say?

So I was focussing on the

q u e s t io n o f w h a t is th e s ig n i f ic a n c e o f s a y in g t h e y s h o u l d n o t g e t
in v o lv e d in t h e d e s ig n in g o f t h e s p e c i fi c a ti o n b e f o r e t h e y r e c e i v e t h e
f o r m a l n o ti f ic a ti o n . A s o p p o s e d t o s a y i n g t h e y s h o u l d n o t g e t in v o lv e d
a t a ll in t h e d e s ig n in g o f t h e s p e c i fi c a t i o n .
20

W h e th e r in o t h e r w o r d s

Tr a n s n e t s h o u l d n o t d e s i g n t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n w i t h o u t t h e m a n d t h e n
p r e s e n t t h e c o n fi n e d t e n d e r t o t h e m w i t h t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n a n d s e e
w h e t h e r t h e y a r e a b l e t o c o m e u p w i t h s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u l d m e e t th a t
s p e c i f ic a ti o n .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD :

I w o u l d c o n c u r t h e p r o c e d u r a l ly

t h a t w o u ld b e m o r e c o r r e c t a p p r o a c h .

Page 176 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . J a o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f I c a n t h e n ju s t c o n ti n u e o n t h a t? H a v e y o u
s e e n t h e R F P f o r t h is c o n fi n e m e n t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s I h a v e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : To y o u r r e c o l l e c t io n w h a t d o e s t h e R F P i n v it e
C S R to d o ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t i n v it e s C S R to p le a s e s u b mi t a

p r o p o s a l b y X Y Z d a t e a n d i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c tl y i t w a s t h e 2 8 t h a n d i t s a id
– a n d i t lis t s t h e – i t s a y s b a s e d o n t h e r e v is e d s p e c i fi c a t io n w h ic h w a s
d e v e l o p e d h e r e – th e r e v i s e d s p e c i f ic a ti o n w h ic h w a s d e v e l o p e d i n
t e r m s o f t h i s r e q u e s t t o M r K u y s a n d i t s a y s th e s e e s s e n t i a ll y s h o u l d
in c o r p o r a t e a ll t h e m o d i f ic a t i o n s c u r r e n t ly m a d e t o th e 1 9 E t h a t h a v e
p r e v i o u s ly b e e n d is c u s s e d .

B u t h e r e a r e t h e e s s e n ti a l c o m p o n e n t s t o

it .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : S o i f I a m t o u n d e r s t a n d th e p r o c e s s t h a t I a m
tr y i n g t o – I a m g o in g t o t r y to p u t i t in a s i m p l is t ic m a n n e r a s p o s s i b l e
20

f o r m y o w n b e n e f i t. Te c h n i c a ll y w h a t h a p p e n e d h e r e w a s t h e d e c i s i o n
w a s t o g o b u y 1 0 0 e l e c tr i c l o c o m o ti v e s fr o m C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : H m .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O : A n d w e k n o w f r o m t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t w e a r e –
what we are seeking to acquire CSR does not have?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W e t h e n d e c i d e w e a r e g o in g t o d o t h is b y

w a y o f c o n fi n e m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e t h e n t a k e a d e c is i o n t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o
t a k e t h e C S R 2 0 E l o c o m o tiv e a n d w e i d e n ti f y a d j u s t m e n ts th a t a r e
r e q u ir e d o n t h a t l o c o m o tiv e .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : To b r i n g it o n p a r w i t h 1 9 E .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

In o r d e r to d o s o w e g o h a v e a d i s c u s s i o n

w i t h C S R a s t o w h a t t h e y w il l n e e d t o d o to b r i n g i t u p to 1 9 E .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H LA P E S E L L O :

Th e n w e is s u e a R F P f o r th e m t o g i v e u s a

p r o p o s a l o n t h a t w h i c h w e h a v e j o i n tl y d is c u s s e d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t i s e x a c tl y w h a t h a p p e n e d .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a t p r o c e s s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

I g u e s s C h a i r it w o u l d b e a m a tt e r f o r

argument whether that was proper or not.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o th a t i s tr u e b u t s o m e t i m e s i t is h e l p fu l to g e t
t h e p e r s p e c tiv e s o f p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d o n t h e g r o u n d o n
s o m e o f t h e s e m a t t e r s . L e t m e – l e t m e s a y t h is . I f th e d e c i s i o n h a d
n o t b e e n t a k e n t h a t t h e te n d e r w o u l d b e c o n f in e d to C S R c e r t a in ly a n y
d is c u s s io n w i t h t h e m in r e g a r d t o th e s p e c i f ic a ti o n w o u l d – w o u l d b e
improper

because

they

could

i n fl u e n c e

Page 178 of 200

th e

s p e c i f ic a ti o n

to

be

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
formulated in such a way as to favour them if and when an open tender
w a s m a d e a n d th e y p u t i n a b i d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e o n e s c e n a r io .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i f t h e d e c is io n h a s a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n t h a t th e y
a r e t h e – t h e y a r e t h e e n t i ty th a t w o u l d b e g iv e n t h i s c o n f in e d t e n d e r I
a m n o t s u r e i n w h a t w a y Tr a n s n e t w o u l d b e p r e ju d ic e d b y a d is c u s s i o n
w i t h th e m i n r e g a r d t o t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n b e c a u s e th e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o
10

h a v e a l r e a d y b e e n c h o s e n a n d le t u s a s s u m e fo r a r g u m e n t s a k e t h a t
t h e y c h o o s i n g t h e m w a s t h e c o r r e c t d e c is i o n b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e
n o r m a l ly if y o u w e r e r u n n i n g y o u r o w n c o m p a n y o n c e y o u h a d d e c id e d
t h a t t h a t i s t h e c o m p a n y t h a t is g o i n g t o a s s is t m e w i t h t h is b u s i n e s s
r e q u ir e m e n t t h e r e s h o u l d – t h e r e w o u l d b e n o t h i n g w r o n g in t a lk i n g t o
t h e m t o s a y t h i s i s w h a t I n e e d , c a n y o u d e l iv e r ?

A n d t h e n th e y c a n

s a y t o y o u , y e s w e c a n d e liv e r w e d e l iv e r t h is a l l t h e t i m e .

O r th e y

m i g h t s a y, w e c a n d e li v e r A , B , C , D b u t w e c a n n o t d e l iv e r E a n d F a n d
t h e n y o u s t a r t ta lk in g to t h e m a b o u t w h a t t h e p l a n – w h a t a n a l t e r n a ti v e
m i g h t b e b e f o r e m a y b e y o u f o r m a l ly r e q u e s t t h e m .
20

Yo u m i g h t h a v e

s o m e d i s c u s s io n w i t h t h e m e v e n i f i t i s i n f o r m a l . W e a r e n o w d e a l in g
w i t h a p u b l ic e n t it y I a m tr y in g to s e e w h e t h e r it b e c o m e s w r o n g s i m p ly
b e c a u s e i t is a p u b lic e n t i ty o r n o t .

W h e r e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d e c i d e d

t h is is t h e o n e t h a t w e a r e g o i n g to a s k t o – th is is t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w e
w i ll a s k t o h e l p u s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e m in d s e t …

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e f r a m e w o r k I h a v e in m y m i n d

M r C h a ir m a n …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Fr o m m y y e a r s i n th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O r g a n is a t io n i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d if I m a y q u o t e t h e e x a m p l e . If
10

t h e d e c is io n h a s b e e n t a k e n a n d th e l e tt e r t o t h e f ir m h a s t o b e is s u e d
b y y o u r s e l f a s th e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C h a ir to th e fir m b e f o r e t h a t l e t te r
is is s u e d I g o a n d h a v e a d i s c u s s i o n w i t h t h e s u p p l ie r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Yo u w o u ld b e a t r i g h t to s a y w h a t

d o y o u t h in k y o u a r e d o in g . W h o g a v e y o u p e r m is s io n a n d a u t h o r i ty t o
g o a n d h a v e t h o s e d is c u s s i o n s w i t h t h e s u p p li e r b e f o r e I h a v e f o r m a ll y
c o m m u n ic a te d w i t h t h e m ?
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

That would be in terms of my –

t h a t is – a b s o l u te ly m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h o w t h e p o lic i e s

and

procedures …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W o r k e d t h r o u g h th e o r g a n i s a t io n .

Page 180 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : If I h a d y o u r p e r m is s i o n t o …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : E n g a g e w i th t h e m b e f o r e h a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t w o u ld b e a d i ff e r e n t s t o r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I h a v e n o t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A s s e s s e d t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t is q u i t e p o s s i b l e t h a t i f I h a d

t h o s e d i s c u s s io n w i t h t h e s u p p l i e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : W i t h o u t y o u r p e r m is s io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Yo u c o u l d c o m e a n d s a y t o m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

W h o s a i d y o u c o u ld ta lk to th e

s u p p li e r b e c a u s e m a y b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I a m g o i n g t o c h a n g e m y m i n d …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A b o u t t h a t s u p p li e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

A n d n o w y o u h a v e c o m p r o m is e d

me …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d i t is – a n d i t i s in t h a t c o n t e x t
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a t I o ff e r e d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : It is …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , th a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O u t o f c o n t e x t .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, thank you.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f y o u r r e s p o n s e to th e

C h a ir r i g h t n o w w e w il l h a v e to d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h is m e e t i n g o f
1 9 F e b r u a r y t a k e n p l a c e w i th C S R w a s a f te r t h e B o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d
t h e c o n f in e m e n t t o C S R . Th a t is s o m e t h in g w e w il l h a v e t o i n v e s t ig a t e
f o r o u r s e lv e s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I – I w o u l d t a k e i t t h a t it w a s

b e c a u s e w e h a d th e B A D C M e e ti n g o n t h e 2 4 t h .
20

Th e B o a r d M e e t i n g

i m m e d i a t e ly f o l lo w in g . S o t h i s w a s a f te r t h e 1 9 t h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h a t – th a t i s n o t a p o i n t .

The

o n ly p o i n t I m a k e is t h a t it h a d n o t b e e n f o r ma ll y c o m m u n ic a te d t h r o u g h

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
t h e C h a ir. S o i t w a s a c o m m u n ic a ti o n p r i o r t o t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To C S R ? To C S R ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To C S R , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u – y o u d is p u t in g r e g a r d i n g s p e c i fic a ti o n is
on 19 February 2014?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : D o y o u k n o w w h e n C S R s u b m i t te d i t s p r o p o s a l
o n t h e 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s ?
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s o n 2 8 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A w e e k la t e r ? A w e e k la t e r a b o u t f r o m t h e …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e 1 9 t h / t h e 2 0 t h .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th e m e e ti n g is o n 1 9 Fe b r u a r y. Th e y s u b m i t
on the 28th?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e 2 8 t h , ja g iv e o r t a k e a w e e k

la t e r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

T h e n e x t d a t e y o u th e n d e a l w i th i n t h e

s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s is a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 o n p a g e 1 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

C a n w e – y o u d e a l w i th th e i s s u e s t h a t y o u

s e t o u t th e r e i n ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Sure.

May I just touch on 59

b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o t to u c h e d o n 5 9 if I m a y j u s t r e f e r b a c k t o t h a t o n e
…?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A b s o lu t e l y.

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To c lo s e i t ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s , y e s p l e a s e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

As

a

result

of

th e s e

design

c h a n g e s t o th e lo c o m o tiv e a n e w c l a s s f o r t h e 1 0 0 l o c o m o ti v e s w a s
c r e a te d fo r C S R th a t w a s 2 1 E t h a t c l e a r ly d i ff e r e n t ia t e s w h ic h s a y s i t i s
a d i ff e r e n t d e s ig n . I t is a d i ffe r e n t ty p e o f lo c o m o t iv e . I t is a d i ff e r e n t
( in d is ti n c t) a n d t h a t w a s t h e u p s h o t o f a l l t h e d e s ig n c h a n g e s w h ic h h a d
t a k e n p l a c e e a r li e r.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
10

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : O k a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: We are now at your paragraph 60.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

60, yes.

N o t h in g m u c h h a p p e n e d

a n d – i f I m a y s a y – li f e c a r r ie s o n p r e t ty m u c h a s b e f o r e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

When

myself

and

colleagues

r e c e i v e d a m a i l fr o m M r Yu s u f L a h e r in f in a n c e w it h s p r e a d s h e e ts o f t h e
fi n a l c a s h f lo w s a t 1 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . Th e s e s p r e a d s h e e ts g a v e t h e c a s h
fl o w s o f th e fo u r s u c c e s s fu l b id d e r s i n t h e 1 0 6 4 p r o je c t p l u s t h e C S R
1 0 0 l o c o m o tiv e s p l u s G E t h e 6 0 d i e s e l lo c o m o t iv e s .
20

W h a t I n o tic e

p a r t ic u l a r ly a b o u t th is e m a i l w a s th a t t h e a d v a n c e p a y m e n t s t o C S R fo r
t h e 1 0 0 l o c o m o t iv e s w a s a 3 0 p e r c e n t d o w n p a y m e n t o n t h e d e s ig n
r e v ie w a n d m a y I p l e a s e t a k e y o u h e r e t o A n n e x u r e 1 7 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: At page 276.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P a g e 2 7 6 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d a t 2 7 6 y o u s a y t h a t is a s p r e a d s h e e t

Page 184 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
r e c e i v e d – r e c e iv e d fr o m M r Yu s u f L a h e r a s p e r p a g e 2 7 5 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d t h is is p a r t o f th e s p r e a d s h e e t
showing

th e

( i n d is t in c t)

percentages.

It

is

not

the

complete

s p r e a d s h e e t.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

It

is

an

e x tr a c t

from

th e

s p r e a d s h e e t a n d if o n e l o o k s a t t h e t o p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r w e w il l s e e
10

t h e r e A P G 3 0 p e r c e n t.

Th a t is a d v a n c e d p a y m e n t g u a r a n t e e .

r e v ie w 3 0 p e r c e n t a c c e p ta n c e 3 7 p e r c e n t .

Design

T h e i m p li c a t io n s o f th is is

t h a t b e fo r e a s in g l e l o c o m o ti v e is r e c e i v e d o n e is p a i d 6 0 p e r c e n t o f
t h e a m o u n t o f th e l o c o m o t iv e .

T h i s is – I a m n o t q u it e s u r e w h i c h

p h r a s e t o u s e – u n u s u a l , w a y o u t o f li n e w it h a n y t h i n g w e h a v e d o n e
b e f o r e t h a t o n e p a y s 6 0 p e r c e n t o f a l o c o m o ti v e b e f o r e o n e r e c e iv e s
t h e fi r s t l o c o m o ti v e a n d t h a t m e a n t t h a t w e – t h e u p f r o n t p a y m e n t w a s
R 1 . 3 2 b il li o n f o r th e s e l o c o m o t iv e s – t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n I a s k y o u a t t h is s ta g e s e e i n g th a t y o u h a d b e e n
a t Tr a n s n e t f o r s o m e d e c a d e s ?
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON :

H a d y o u b e e n in v o lv e d i n o t h e r a c q u is i ti o n s o f

lo c o m o t iv e s b e f o r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f – a b o u t h o w m a n y k i n d o f tr a n s a c ti o n s o v e r t h e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
p e r i o d f o r e x a m p l e tw o , th r e e , f o u r ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I w a s i n v o lv e d s p e c i f ic a l ly i n t h e

a c q u is i ti o n o f t h e 1 5 E l o c o m o ti v e s f o r th e a l l l in e w h ic h a ls o w a s a
c o n fi n e m e n t o n

M i t s u i a n d t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t s f o r

that.

43

lo c o m o t iv e s fr o m G e n e r a l E l e c tr ic …
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e y o u c a n m e n ti o n t h e y e a r s i f y o u r e m e m b e r

when each one was.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e n i n e – th e 1 5 E w a s a r o u n d

2010. Please I am …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Do not hold me too closely to the

y e a r s b u t it w a s a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR FRANCIS QUENTIN CALLARD: 2010.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Because

th e

( in d i s ti n c t)

was

r u n n in g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
20

T h e c la s s 4 3 w a s r o u n d a b o u t t h e

s a m e ti m e – 2 0 1 0 /2 0 11 .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

T h e n w e h a d t h e s p e c i f ic a t i o n fo r

t h e c l a s s 9 5 w h ic h w a s a n o p e n te n d e r o n e a n d I w a s p a r ty to th a t
b u s i n e s s c a s e a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 186 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Th a t w a s 2 0 1 3 - a l s o a b o u t 2 0 11 o f
t h a t o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d i n a b o u t – w h a t – f o u r o r s o
tr a n s a c ti o n s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : ( In t e r v e n e s ) th r e e o f t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r e e o f t h e m a n d o f a l l o f th e m y o u s a y th is w a s t h e
b i g g e s t o r h ig h e s t u p fr o n t p a y m e n t in t e r m s o f p e r c e n t a g e o f th e w h o le
10

price?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

There is one other – let us leave

t h a t f o r a s p e c i a l r e a s o n – b u t y e s th is w a s w a y o u t o f li n e t o a n y t h in g
w h ic h w e h a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : ( In d is t in c t ) b e fo r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

J u s t b y c o n t e x t a n d w e w i ll – i f I

m a y – fo r r e f e r e n c e p o i n t a n d w e w il l c o m e to t h a t in t h e 1 0 6 4 .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Th e

s ta n d a r d

normal

u p fr o n t

p a y m e n t t h a t w e d e p o s i t e d w a s a 3 m i lli o n d e p o s i t t o e n a b l e t h e
s u p p li e r to s e t u p h i s p r o d u c t io n , r u n a fa c t o r y a n d t h e n w e w o u ld p a y
p e r h a p s 9 0 p e r c e n t o n t h e a c c e p t a n c e o f th e l o c o m o tiv e a n d t h e r e
w o u ld t h e n b e 5 p e r c e n t t o r e t e n ti o n a n d a n o t h e r 5 p e r c e n t w a r r a n te e
p a y a b le a t t h e e n d . S o …

Page 187 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h e 1 0 6 4 b u s in e s s c a s e fo r t h e –
1 0 6 fo r t h e 5 9 9 – fo r t h e d ie s e ls a n d th e e l e c tr i c s b o t h d e p o s i t e d a n
u p fr o n t d e p o s i t o f o n ly 3 0 0 m i lli o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
paragraph

61

where

And
you

–

and

conduct

those
this

p o in ts

c o m p a r is o n

you
to

make

at

previous

purchases?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s , y e s a n d M A R S w e h a d p a i d –
10

t h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t w a s a p p r o x i m a te ly 7 . 8 p e r c e n t .

The advance

p a y m e n t t o C S R f o r t h e 9 5 2 0 E w a s 1 0 p e r c e n t . T h e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t
f o r th e 1 0 6 4 b u s i n e s s c a s e w a s a s e t u p f e e o f 3 0 0 m i ll i o n d e p o s i te d in
t h e t e n d e r.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

S o i f – w h e r e y o u s ta t e th e M A R S u p fr o n t

p a y m e n t f o r 11 0 1 9 E l o c o m o t iv e s w a s a p p r o x i m a t e ly 7 . 8 p e r c e n t d o y o u
r e c a l l w h a t t h e t i m e l in e s w e r e f o r th e p a y m e n t o f t h e b a l a n c e o f th e
purchase price?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

It w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n d e li v e r y o f

t h e lo c o m o t iv e .
20

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d o n th a t p r i n c i p le a s w e ll w h e n C S R i n

r e s p e c t o f th e 9 5 2 0 E r e c e i v e d 1 0 p e r c e n t t h e r e m a in e d e x c lu d in g
r e te n ti o n a n d w a r r a n te e s - o f c o u r s e – w o u ld b e o w n d e l iv e r y ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t is m y – I w o u ld l ik e to c o n f ir m

t h a t o n e b u t it is m y r e c o l le c t i o n t h a t th a t is s o t h a t w e p a i d 1 0 p e r c e n t
o f t h e b a l a n c e o n d e liv e r y. I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o c o n f ir m t h a t p o i n t .

Page 188 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d in r e s p e c t o f t h e 1 0 0 l o c o m o tiv e s w e a r e
d e a li n g w i th n o w 6 0 p e r c e n t w a s p a id b e f o r e a s i n g l e lo c o m o t iv e w a s
d e li v e r e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u h a v e a t y o u r An n e x u r e 1 7 a fi g u r e o f 4 . 4
b i ll io n .

C a n y o u e x p l a i n w h a t t h a t fi g u r e is r e l a tiv e t o th e a p p r o v e d

a c q u is i ti o n c o s t o f 3 . 8 7 b i ll io n - i f m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll ?

Do you

know (intervenes)?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :
10

S o r r y, I a m o n 6 2 – s o r r y –

paragraph 62.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: No, no I am at your Annexure 17.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n n e x u r e 1 7 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Page 276.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : J u s t p a s t t h e mi d w a y p o i n t a t t h e t o p o f t h a t
d o c u m e n t i s a R a n d v a l u e o f 4 . 4 b i ll io n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I w o u ld lik e y o u t o t a lk th a t .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

20

O h , a p o lo g i e s .

T h a t 4 . 4 b i ll i o n

w a s t h e n th e – w h a t w a s s e e n a s t h e – w h a t w a s th e t o t a l e s ti m a t e d
c o s t o f t h a t p r o je c t f o r t h e a c q u i s i ti o n o f t h e 1 0 0 lo c o m o t iv e s .

Th a t

w a s a n in c r e a s e fr o m t h e 3 . 8 b il li o n th a t w a s p o s i ti v e in t h e o r i g i n a l
b u s i n e s s c a s e m e m o r a n d u m . H e r e th e c a s h f l o w g o e s u p t o 4 . 4 m i ll i o n
w h ic h w a s l a te r i n c r e a s e d w h e n t h e s u b m is s io n f o r th is w a s t a b le d . I
w e n t u p t o 4 .8 b i lli o n b u t th a t w a s t h e c a s h fl o w a t t h e ti m e fo r t h e

Page 189 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
d e li v e r y 4 . 4 b il li o n w h i c h e x c l u d e d s o m e v a r i a ti o n s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y. S o a c c o r d i n g t o p a g e 2 7 6 1 . 3 2 b i ll i o n
was paid on 1 April 2014?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t o r o n o r b e f o r e 1 A p r i l .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

On or before.

A s a t t h is d a t e d o y o u k n o w

w h e t h e r t h e – th e n e w s p e c i f ic a ti o n – t h e n e w d e s ig n fo r t h i s
lo c o m o t iv e h a d b e e n a p p r o v e d ? N o , n o t a p p r o v e d h a d b e e n c o m p l e te d .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

No, it had not been.

T h e d e s ig n

r e v ie w f o r t h e – a n d i t is n o t i n m y s t a t e m e n t – t h e d e s i g n r e v ie w f o r
10

t h is 1 0 0 l o c o m o ti v e w a s c o m p l e te d a r o u n d J u l y th e – t o w a r d s t h e e n d
o f J u ly 2 0 1 4 b e c a u s e t h a t tr ig g e r e d t h e s e c o n d p a y m e n t a l s o o f 1 . 3 2
b i ll io n w h ic h w a s p a i d o n 1 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Making a total of 3. …?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Tw o b ill i o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: 3.2.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : S o r r y, 1 . …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : N o , 2 . 6 b il li o n .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 . 6 b il li o n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a i d o v e r a p e r i o d o f s ix m o n th s .

20

M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : T h a n k y o u . O v e r le a f a t p a g e 1 5 s ta r t i n g fr o m
y o u r p a r a g r a p h 6 2 y o u d e a l w i th t h e s e p a y m e n t s a n d – a n d i s s u e s
around that.

W o u ld y o u l ik e – b r ie f ly lik e to t a l k t o t h a t ?

Fr o m

p a r a g r a p h 6 2 a t p a g e 1 5 . Is t h e r e a n y th i n g w e o mi t t e d a t p a g e 1 4 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : N o , p a g e 1 4 is fi n e .

Page 190 of 200

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Page

62

just

i ll u s tr a te s

the

s e n ti m e n t b e t w e e n m y c o ll e a g u e s in f in a n c e a n d m y s e l f a t t h a t t i m e
a r o u n d t h e lo c o m o t iv e t e n d e r s .

T h e r e a s o n t h i s e m a il c a m e o r t h is

S M S c a m e t o m e f r o m m y c o ll e a g u e s i n fi n a n c e i s b e c a u s e I w a s
p u t t in g in t o t h e c a p i t a l b u d g e t t h e c a s h f lo w s th a t w e r e r e q u ir e d t o
fi n a n c e a l l t h e s e l o c o m o ti v e tr a n s a c t io n s n o t o n l y i n t h e c a p i t a l
a c q u is i ti o n b u t t o g e t h e r w it h t h e ir m a i n te n a n c e a n d a ls o f o r t h e
w a g o n s . S o I w a s c o m p il in g t h e s e v e n y e a r b u d g e t s p r e a d f o r t h a t a n d
10

I h a d t o e n s u r e t h a t th e - t h e s e fi g u r e s a p p e a r e d c o r r e c tl y in th e
b u d g e t b u t t h i s w a s t h e in t e r e s ti n g o n e fr o m m y c o l l e a g u e – a
M s N a t a s h a M c M a h o n – w h o o n 2 7 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 – b e a r i n m i n d t h i s is
n o w i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e t e n d e r n e g o t i a t i o n p e r io d o n t h e 1 0 6 4 a n d w e
a r e a ls o a t th e s a m e t i m e n o w a s w e a r e s t a r ti n g to d e a l w it h t h e 1 0 0
a n d h e r e m a il r e a d s a n d t h i s is fr o m N a ta s h a :
“ Mr C , w o r k i n g 4 b il li o n , y e s 4 b il li o n d e p o s i t i n th e
c u r r e n t f in a n c ia l y e a r i n a ll s c e n a r i o s .”
T h i s is n o w o n 2 7 Fe b r u a r y a n d t h is is 4 b i ll io n d e p o s i t w h ic h w e n o w
h a v e t o p a y b e f o r e t h e e n d o f t h e 2 0 1 4 – s o r r y – i n t h e c u r r e n t fi n a n c i a l

20

y e a r fo r a l l s c e n a r i o s . I r e p l i e d t o t h a t:
“ Ye s , 4 b il li o n . M y g id d y h a t w h a t w il l t h e a u d i t o r s
s a y.”
I m u s t c o n f e s s t h is – I w a s – s h e s a i d :
“ We h a v e a s k e d fo r a n o p in i o n .
c o w b o y s .”

Page 191 of 200

These guys are

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
T h i s is N a t a s h a . I r e s p o n d e d t h a t ti m e :
“ I j u s t c o m p le t e d t h e F X S u r v e y.”
I d id n o t k n o w w h a t e l s e t o s a y. W e h a d a la u g h . W e j u s t s a i d w o w.
T h i s is g o in g to c a u s e u s g r i e v e b u t y e s t h a t w a s t h e s e n t i m e n t a t t h e
ti m e a r o u n d t h e s e s ig n i f ic a n t a n d u p fr o n t d e p o s i ts t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g
t o b e i n l in e to p a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

And at paragraph 63 you speak of total

u p fr o n t c o s ts o f 7 .3 7 b i ll io n …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P a y a b le b e f o r e 1 A p r il 2 0 1 4 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

Ye s .

The

u p fr o n t

deposi t

p a y m e n t s fo r t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o tiv e s – a g a i n I w il l a d d r e s s - a d d r e s s
t h o s e – p l u s f o r t h e 1 0 0 2 1 E l o c o m o ti v e s f r o m C S R p lu s th e 6 0 d ie s e ls
r e q u ir e d th a t fr o m th e t i m e o f s i g n i n g t h o s e c o n tr a c ts o n 1 7 M a r c h t o
1 A p r il w e h a d to f in d a n d p a y 7 . 3 7 b il li o n i n u p fr o n t c o s t s a n d I j u s t p u t
t h a t t h i s w a s a n – p u t a n i n c r e d ib le s tr a in o n th e o r g a n is a ti o n .

The

c a p i t a l th a t h a d t o b e r a i s e d i n t h is s h o r t p e r i o d o f t i m e . O n e d o e s n o t
r a i s e t h i s c a p it a l o v e r n i g h t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d h o w t h i s 7 . 7 b i ll io n i s s p r e a d a c r o s s th e
20

d i ff e r e n t tr a n s a c ti o n y o u c a p t u r e th a t a t y o u r A n n e x u r e 1 7 ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A t p a g e 2 7 7 . 1 7 s t a r ts a t 2 7 4 b u t i f y o u c o u l d
have regard to page 277.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

M y a p o l o g ie s .

A n n e x u r e 1 7 is c o r r e c t ly r e fe r e n c e d .

Page 192 of 200

I am no t sure that

17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : P l e a s e h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 2 7 7 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : 2 7 7 – 2 7 7 , th a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s . T h a t is p a r t o f A n n e x u r e 1 7 .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : P a g e 2 7 7 is a g a in a f u r th e r e x tr a c t
o f th a t s a m e f il e t h a t I r e c e iv e d o n 1 7 M a r c h w h ic h w a s t h e d a y t h a t th e
lo c o m o t iv e tr a n s a c ti o n s w e r e a l l fi n a l is e d a n d i n t h e to p le f t h a n d
c o r n e r y o u w il l s e e i t is a c o p y o f t h e c a s h f l o w fi n a l 1 7 M a r c h . To t a l
10

c a s h f l o w a c r o s s a ll th e l o c o m o ti v e s . I t a ls o g iv e s th e t o ta l p r ic e s t o
b e p a i d b u t th e k e y fi g u r e is t o t a l c a s h f lo w s 1 0 6 4 lo c o m o t iv e s , 1 0 0
lo c o m o t iv e s . T h e fi r s t l i n e – 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . I f o n e m o v e s th e r e t o th e
fir s t y e ll o w c o lu m n o n th e r i g h t h a n d s i d e it i s R 7 . 3 7 b i ll i o n a n d t h a t i s
what we had to pay between 17 March and 31 March.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d t h a t 7 .3 b i ll io n is m a d e u p w i th th e

f o ll o w i n g .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t i s m a d e u p o f 4 .8 b i ll io n f o r

a c r o s s th e f o u r O E M s f o r t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o ti v e s .
u p fr o n t p a y m e n t fo r C S R .
20

1 . 3 2 b i ll io n - t h e

Th a t w a s t h e ir fir s t 3 0 p e r c e n t u p f r o n t

payment.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : A n d t h e s e – th e s e a r e c u r r e n t tr a n s a c ti o n s w e
a r e d e a li n g w i th ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I t is t h e c u r r e n t tr a n s a c ti o n s w e

a r e d e a li n g w i th .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : A n d t h e r e w a s a 1 .2 b il li o n fo r 6 0
lo c o m o t iv e s fo r G e n e r a l E le c tr i c .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

Wa s t h e r e a r e a s o n g i v e n t o y o u o r d id y o u

b e c o m e a w a r e o f o n e o n w h y s u c h a s ig n if ic a n t u p f r o n t p a y m e n t s h o u ld
b e m a d e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e s e tr a n s a c t io n s ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

N o t i n r e s p e c t o f th e 1 0 0 .

There

w a s a – I w o u ld l ik e t o d e a l w i th th e 1 0 6 4 w h e n w e a c t u a l ly d e a l w i th
t h e 1 0 6 4 l o c o m o ti v e s b e c a u s e i t i s m o r e r e l e v a n t t h e r e . T h e r e w a s a
r e a s o n g iv e n f o r t h e – t h i s v e r y l a r g e u p f r o n t p a y m e n t t o – f o r t h e 6 0
10

lo c o m o t iv e s t o G e n e r a l E l e c tr ic b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a n n e x e d a n d I
u n d e r s t a n d – a n d p l e a s e I h a v e n o t s e e n a n y o ffi c i a l d o c u m e n ta t io n t o
t h i s - b u t i t w a s t h e t a lk fr o m t h o s e w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d t h a t i t w a s
b e c a u s e a p r o d u c t io n li n e w a s r u n n i n g th is w a s to a c h ie v e a n e x tr e m e ly
f a v o u r a b l e p r i c e f o r t h o s e l o c o m o tiv e s a n d i t w a s to b u y t h e m a t e r ia l
f o r t h e 6 0 l o c o m o tiv e s u p fr o n t a n d g e t i t i n s o t h a t th e l in e w a s ju s t
k e p t r u n n in g w i th o u t h a v i n g t o c l o s e d o w n t h e l in e a t a ll o r s t o p o r s ta r t
t h e li n e a n d it b e a b l e th e n – t h o s e lo c o m o t iv e s t o b e d e l iv e r e d v e r y
q u ic k ly w i th n o b r e a k i n p r o d u c ti o n .

Th a t is my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e

h i g h u p fr o n t p a y m e n t t h e r e t o G e n e r a l E l e c tr ic .
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Yo u s t a te a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 6 3 a t p a g e 1 5 i n
r e g a r d t o t h is u p fr o n t c o s ts p a y m e n t o f 7 .3 7 b i ll io n t h a t a n d I q u o te
fr o m y o u r s t a t e m e n t :
“ Tr a n s n e t h a d t o p a y u p fr o n t c o s ts o f 7 . 3 7 b i ll io n
b e f o r e 1 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 s o th a t t h e p a y m e n ts w o u ld b e
r e fl e c t e d in t h e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.”

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

A n d in t h is r e g a r d y o u r e fe r t o A n n e x u r e 1 7

w h ic h i s t h e d o c u m e n t w e h a v e j u s t w o r k e d t h r o u g h .
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : C o r r e c t .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

W h a t w a s s o i m p o r t a n t in e ff e c ti n g t h e s e

payments in the 2013/2014 year?

W h y c o u l d n o t s o m e p a y m e n ts r o ll

o v e r t o t h e n e x t f in a n c ia l y e a r ? W h y w a s i t n e c e s s a r y t o e ff e c t t h a t 7 .3
in t h a t p a r t ic u l a r fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? A r e y o u a w a r e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : I c a n r e v e r s e e n g i n e e r t h e a n s w e r
10

a t t h e m o m e n t b u t le t m e n o t s a y. I w a s n o t g iv i n g t h e …
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

I w o u l d r a t h e r n o t g o d e fi n i t iv e ly

d o w n th a t r o u t e .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : O k a y.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : B u t i t w a s – i t w o u l d – it w o u l d h a d
t o d o w i th t h e c a s h f l o w a c r o s s t h e o r g a n i s a ti o n h o w i t is p r e s e n t e d in
t h e ( in d is ti n c t) y e a r b e c a u s e i f t h i s h a d m o v e d t o t h e n e x t y e a r w it h th e
o th e r u p fr o n t p a y m e n t s it w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r e a lly s ig n i f ic a n t s p i k e i n
t h e p a y m e n ts o f th a t y e a r w h ic h w o u l d h a v e a ff e c te d t h e – t h e
20

b o r r o w in g s o f t h a t y e a r a s I w i ll s h o w l a t e r b u t – m a y I s a y th a t i s – I
r e v e r s e ly e n g i n e e r e d th a t s o l u ti o n .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
a d d r e s s y o u C h a ir.

Ye s , y e s .

C h a ir – y o u – y o u – b e f o r e I

Mr Callard you conclude by – by saying that the

s ig n if ic a n t p a y m e n t p u t a n in c r e d ib l e s tr a i n o n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a s t h i s
c a p i t a l h a d t o b e r a is e d i n a n e x tr e m e ly s h o r t p e r io d o f t i m e ?

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Wa s i t a c t u a ll y r a is e d i n t h a t ti m e ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

W e l l y e s b e c a u s e t h e p a y m e n ts

were made.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O k a y. A t 6 4 y o u d e a l – y o u s ta r t y o u r – t h e

p a r t o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t d e a l s w i t h t h e in c r e a s e i n t h e e s ti m a t e d
t o t a l c o s t o f a c q u i s i t io n o f t h e 1 0 0 l o c o m o tiv e s fr o m 3 .8 b i ll io n to 4 .8
b i ll io n . Yo u s e e t h a t ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
10

ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

C h a ir i f I m a y a t t h i s j u n c t u r e a d d r e s s y o u ?

T h a t is a f a ir ly i n v o lv e d – t h a t i s f a ir ly i n v o lv e d t e s ti m o n y. W e w i ll n o t
fi n i s h i t t o d a y i f M r C a l l a r d is t o w o r k t h r o u g h i t a l l i f w e w e r e t o g o t o
h a l f p a s t fo u r. I – I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e – i t is 1 5 :5 3 . I d o n o t k n o w h o w
t h e C h a ir – w e c o u ld s t a r t.

W e w o u l d h a v e t o s t o p i t m i d w a y w h ic h

m e a n s w h e n w e r e c o n v e n e w e h a v e t o g o b a c k i n o r d e r f o r – to b e
p r o p e r ly c o n t e x t u a li s e d a n d I k n o w C h a ir I h a d c o m m e n te d to h a l f p a s t
f o u r a n d y o u h a d – t h a n k fu ll y – a s k e d m e w h e t h e r I a m f i n e w i t h i t . I
h a d s a i d y e s . I w il l n o t a c c e p t t h a t a s a d e li b e r a t e a t te m p t t o m i s l e a d
t h e C h a ir b u t t o s a y p e r h a p s I w a s o v e r e n th u s ia s tic in m y r e s p o n s e . I
20

d o k n o w a b o u t Mr C a l la r d . I s e e – I h e a r h i m m a k i n g c e r t a i n e r r o r s a n d
I d o n o t k n o w i f h e is b e c o m in g tir e d b u t I s p e a k f o r m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l le t – l e t - I w il l – I w il l h e a r w h e th e r Mr C a l la r d
f e e ls t h a t h e c a n s t il l d e a l w it h i t . M y – I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t w h a t y o u
m e a n w h e n y o u s a y i f w e s t a r t w it h i t a n d w e h a v e to s t o p w i th o u t
fi n i s h i n g …

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t c h a p te r o r th i n g – w h e n y o u s a y w e w o u l d h a v e
to come back to it on Monday I assume that you do not mean that we
w i ll h a v e t o s t a r t a ll o v e r a g a i n b u t t h a t a l l y o u m e a n i s w e m i g h t n e e d
t o s p e n d m a y b e a n o t h e r f iv e m in u t e s to r e fr e s h o u r m e m o r y b e fo r e w e
c o n ti n u e . I s t h a t w h a t y o u m e a n o r … ?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t – d o y o u m e a n t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e t o s t a r t a l l o f
over again?
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I f t h e C h a ir w e r e t o h a v e r e g a r d to p a r a g r a p h
s t a r ti n g a t 6 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: Starting at paragraph 64 a t page 15…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W o r k in g th r o u g h t o 7 2 …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t i s o n e c o n t in u o u s n a r r a ti v e t h a t is b e s t t o l d
t h r o u g h r e f e r e n c e t o t a b l e s a n d c a lc u l a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

ADV MAHLAPE SELL O: And if we start at …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t w o u l d b e b e s t t o c o m p l e te i t.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

O th e r w i s e w h e n w e tr y to p i c k i t u p a g a i n –

you know - we …

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m i g h t b e p r o b l e m a ti c .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO: Now if …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

To c o v e r t h e 1 0 m i n u t e s b e f o r e fo u r n o w I

w o u ld b e in a p o s i t io n t o s t a r t a t 9 o ’ c l o c k i f t h e r e is a c o n c e r n a b o u t
lo s i n g ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON :

A s s u m i n g w e w e r e n o t g o in g t o s ta r t a t 9 o ’ c l o c k

a n y w a y.
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:
10

T h e n I a m i n a p o s i ti o n to s ta r t a t h a lf p a s t

e i g h t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r C a l la r d h o w a r e y o u f e e li n g ?

A r e y o u f e e l i n g s ti ll

fi n e t o p r o c e e d ?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D :

G o o d t o g o f o r a n o th e r h a l f h o u r

M r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Sorry?
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : G o o d t o g o f o r a n o t h e r h a l f h o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is g o o d t o g o f o r a n o th e r h a lf h o u r.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S e ll o y o u h e a r d . Yo u a r e t ir e d ?
20

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I a m t ir e d C h a ir a n d it is b e c a u s e a s C h a ir i s
a w a r e i t h a s b e e n q u i t e a f e w d a y s w o r k i n g w i t h Mr C a ll a r d t o p r e p a r e
h i m f o r t o d a y. It is n o t l ik e I a m c o m i n g i n ( la u g h i n g ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I t i s a c t u a l ly d u e t o t h e e x h a u s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t h i n k Mr C a l la r d w e w i ll h a v e to b e m e r c i f u l t o t h e

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
younger generation.
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : To b o t h o f u s . C h a ir if I m a y I a m
a ls o g r a t e f u l .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I a p p r e c i a t e , th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w o u l d i t b e f in e i f w e t h e n s t a r t a t n i n e o n
Monday?
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I a m in a p o s i ti o n to …
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h a t b e fi n e ?
10

A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : W e m e t e a r l ie r t o d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MAHLAPE SELLO:

To c o m e th r o u g h h e r e a n d I t h i n k i t w a s

comfortable for Mr Callard to come …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th r o u g h t h a t e a r l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : S o n i n e s h o u ld s u i t u s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

Th e n w e w il l s t o p h e r e t h e n f o r t o d a y a n d a d j o u r n

u n t il M o n d a y a t 9 o ’ c l o c k . S o w e w i ll a d jo u r n f o r to d a y a n d o n M o n d a y
w e w i ll s t a r t a 9 o ’ c l o c k .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : I a m in d e b t e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
A D V M A H L A P E S E L L O : Th a n k y o u .

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17 MAY 2019 – DAY 95
M R F R A N C I S Q U E N T I N C A L LA R D : T h a n k y o u .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S

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