C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 1 7 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 D AY 1 8 2 20 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 1 7 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Gcabashe, good morning e v e r y b o d y. I a m s o r r y w e a r e s t a r ti n g 6 m i n u t e s la t e . A D V G C A B A S H E : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f s o m e u r g e n t s tu ff I h a d t o a tt e n d t o . A r e you ready? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s , y e s I a m C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. G o o d m o r n i n g Ms R o c k m a n . M S R O C K M A N : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y. L e t u s c o n ti n u e . ADV GCABASHE: Th a n k – th a n k y o u . Ms Rockman yesterday when w e a d jo u r n e d w e w e r e d i s c u s s i n g w h a t p r o v is io n h a d b e e n m a d e fo r t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e 11 4 m i ll io n to Es t in a a s a n i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t o v e r t h e t h r e e y e a r p e r i o d t h a t th is 11 4 p e r a n n u m h a d to b e p a id . Yo u w e r e g o i n g to h a v e a l o o k a t y o u r d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d j u s t a s s i s t u s i n lo c a ti n g th e fo r m i n w h ic h t h is a ll o c a ti o n h a d b e e n m a d e f o r E s t i n a . I j u s t f o r c o n v e n ie n c e s a k e I a c t u a lly d id th e e x e r c i s e la s t n i g h t a n d I w o u ld p o i n t y o u t o E R 4 3 w h i c h i s i n H H 1 3 B a t p a g e 5 6 3 . W e h a v e d e a l t w it h th is le t t e r b e f o r e . S o it is E R 4 3 . I t is p a r t o f y o u r 20 o r i g in a l s u b m is s i o n . A n d I j u s t a c t u a l ly t h o u g h t t h a t q u i t e a f e w o f t h e n u m b e r s a r e – a r e v e r y w e ll s u m m a r is e d in E R 4 3 . p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e d id y o u s a y i t i s ? A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s p a g e 5 6 3 C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Page 2 of 68 I n a n y e v e n t fo r 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 A D V G C A B A S H E : O f th e o r i g i n a l b u n d l e . B u t i t is b u n d l e B b e c a u s e i t is a n n e x u r e it is i n b u n d l e B . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t . ADV GCABASHE: And… CHAIRPERSON: Have you found it Ms Rockman? Not yet? MS ROCKMAN: Not yet. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t is E x h i b i t H H 1 3 B o n t h e s p i n e . A D V G C A B A S H E: A p p a r e n t ly t h e t h r e e fi le s t h a t a r e o n th e t a b l e – yes. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k y o u m a y h a v e c o n fu s e d h e r b y s a y i n g p a r t o f h e r o r ig in a l s u b m is s i o n . I thought when you said that you meant the b u n d l e w h ic h h a s g o t h e r m a in a ff id a v i t w h ic h i s A n o t B . So – so m a y b e s h e g o t c o n f u s e d b e c a u s e o f t h a t. A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n . I f t h o s e a r e th e o t h e r [i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Have you found it? M S R O C K M A N : I th in k s o – 5 6 3 ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: It is Annexure ER43 at page 563. 20 M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I a m t h e r e . ADV GCABASHE: If t h o s e a r e t h e o t h e r b u n d l e s y o u m i g h t w a n t t o b r i n g t h e m a li t tl e c lo s e r. I a m n o t s u r e i f th o s e – t h a t i s A a n d C t h a t y o u l e ft . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: I t h i n k j u s t b r i n g t h e m a l i tt l e c lo s e r t o th e e x t e n t Page 3 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 that we might need them. N o t t o o c lo s e b u t a t l e a s t t h e y s h o u ld b e somewhere where you can reach them without having to get up. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a m a y b e h e r c h a ir i s t o o f a r a w a y fr o m … A D V G C A B A S H E : F r o m t h o s e . Yo u m ig h t … C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e m i g h t w is h t o b r i n g i t c l o s e r. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o w h a te v e r m a k e s y o u c o m f o r t a b l e . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s th e o t h e r C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh 10 MS ROCKMAN: Th e p e r s o n is u s e d a s s t o r a g e o r [i n d is t in c t] w e w i ll manage it is fine thanks. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V G C A B A S H E: T h a n k y o u . A n d r e a l ly a t p a r a g r a p h 6 a n d 7 is w h a t I ju s t w a n t e d to b r i n g to y o u r a tt e n ti o n . T h a t is E R 4 3 p a g e 5 6 3 paragraph 6 and 7. M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A s y o u s p e a k t o t h e is s u e s m a y b e y o u c a n j u s t s a y t h a t is a c o r r e c t s u m m a r y o f w h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e d e a li n g w i t h . T h e n I a ls o w o u ld lik e t o j u s t b e f o r e y o u s ta r t p o i n t y o u t o i n v e r y 20 s p e c i f ic te r ms t o p a r a g r a p h 7 a n d c o n fir m t h a t t h e R 1 2 m i ll io n th a t i s r e c o r d e d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 w a s g o in g to b e d r a w n fr o m th e M o h u m a M o b u n g a ll o c a ti o n , d o y o u c o n fi r m th a t ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: E x c e ll e n t . T h e n w h a t is – w h a t a c t u a l ly h a p p e n e d in p r a c t ic e is r e c o r d e d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h 7 o f E R 4 3 . T h e n e x t p o in t – Page 4 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 r e a l ly t h e s e a r e ju s t p o i n ts I a m m a k i n g i n j u s t s u m m a r i s i n g w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d o f y o u r e v id e n c e y e s te r d a y. S m a l le r p r o j e c ts w h i c h w e r e t o b e fu n d e d u n d e r t h e M o h u m a M o b u n g a l lo c a t io n w e r e s a c r i f ic e d in o r d e r t o f u n d th e Vr e d e D a ir y Farm Project. Is that correct? M S R O C K M A N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E: 10 S o t h e 3 0 m i lli o n t h a t w a s p a i d t o Es t in a o n t h e 9 J u l y w a s d r a w n fr o m t h e 3 5 m il li o n t h a t h a d b e e n a l lo c a t e d t o M o h u m a M o b u n g fr o m th e M T F a ll o c a ti o n o f 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t. A D V G C A B A S H E: A n d t h is is – t h is i s a c t u a lly j u s t a li n k I w o u ld l ik e to make. W h e n M s A n n a Fo u r ie w a s h e r e s h e t o ld u s t h a t w h e n th e C F O o f D A R D a p p r o a c h e d h e r f o r t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e 3 0 m il li o n s h e in f o r m e d h e r th a t a l l th a t w a s le f t in t h e P r o v i n c i a l R e v e n u e F u n d w a s 5 m il li o n . A n d I a m r e a l ly ju s t tr y i n g t o f i n d o u t if t h e 5 m il li o n t h a t A n n a F o u r i e s p o k e o f i s t h e b a la n c e o f t h i s 3 0 o r is it a t o t a lly d i ff e r e n t a m o u n t ? T h a t i s t h e o n l y – I a m j u s t tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d t h e e v i d e n c e . 20 M S R O C K M A N : N o I th in k M s F o u r i e w o u l d h a v e m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e c a s h a v a i la b l e i n th e P r o v i n c ia l R e v e n u e F u n d . ADV GCABASHE: I see. MS ROCKMAN: Not n e c e s s a r ily a v a i la b le for t h is p r o je c t or A g r ic u l t u r e . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k s . T h a t c le a r s i t u p f o r m e b e c a u s e th e n th e r e Page 5 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 is n o l in k b e t w e e n t h e tw o . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: I f th e r e h a d b e e n I w o u l d h a v e a s k e d a c o u p l e o f o th e r q u e s t io n s . MS ROCKMAN: T h e r e w a s c l e a r ly n o c a s h a v a il a b l e to a c c o m m o d a t e a r e q u e s t f r o m a n y d e p a r t m e n t o v e r a n d a b o v e 5 m il li o n . ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . A b s o l u t e ly, t h a n k y o u . T h e n i f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 5 6 5 t h e r e y o u h a v e a b r e a k d o w n o f th e b u d g e ts . I th i n k I a m g o i n g t o a ll o w y o u n o w t o – a n d I a m s i m p ly u s in g E R 4 3 a s a r e f e r e n c e 10 document. M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: S o w h e r e y o u th i n k t h e r e c o r d in g is n o t c o r r e c t t h e r e fo r i n s t a n c e t h e r e i s t h a t t a b le th a t t e lls u s w h a t w a s a ll o c a te d . P l e a s e a s s is t a n d t e ll u s t o c o r r e c t th a t d o c u m e n t a s w e l l a s y o u g iv e u s th e c o r r e c t fi g u r e s . M S R O C K M A N : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: Simply because I think ER43 is a very useful s u m m a r y. T h a n k y o u . M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t h in k y o u in d i c a t e d y e s t e r d a y th e 20 in f o r m a ti o n is a l m o s t s p li t b e t w e e n – t h e r e is a p a r t in t h e m a i n a ffi d a v i t and e s s e n ti a l ly another fo r part 2013/2014 in the th e supplementary fu n d i n g was a ffi d a v i t . 53.950 C o m p r e h e n s i v e A g r ic u l t u r a l S u p p o r t G r a n t, th e C A S P g r a n t . ADV GCABASHE: So under CASP? MS ROCKMAN: There was 53.950. Page 6 of 68 fr o m But the 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 A D V G C A B A S H E : [ I n d is t in c t ] 5 3 – j u s t o v e r 5 3 , c o r r e c t ? MS ROCKMAN: Ja. A n d th e n fr o m i n fr a s tr u c tu r e e n h a n c e m e n t a l lo c a t io n t h a t i s t h e p r o v i n c ia l f u n d i t is 6 0 m il li o n . Th e n a t t h e ti m e A g r ic u l t u r e Fis h e r y a n d F o r e s tr y w i t h h e ld t h e f u n d in g . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: 2 4 m ill i o n o f th a t 5 3 . 9 w a s a l r e a d y s p e n t. S o th e y e ffe c tiv e l y w i t h h e ld 2 9 .9 5 0 m i lli o n t h e n . I n th e a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t t h a t y e a r w e r e d u c e d A g r i c u l tu r e ’s o v e r a ll a ll o c a ti o n w i t h 1 0 . 9 6 2 m il li o n . Then 10 there was a s e p a r a t e s u b m is s i o n made b y A g r ic u l t u r e in December 2013. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: W h ic h w a s t h e n a u t h o r i s e d f o r p a y m e n t b y H O D Tr e a s u r y a n d t h a t f u n d i n g w a s t h e n a p p r o p r i a t e d i n th e s p e c i a l A d ju s t m e n t A p p r o p r ia t io n Ac t w e p r o v id e d f o r 2 5 m i ll io n w h ic h c a m e fr o m a l l o t h e r u n c o m m i t t e d f u n d s a t th e ti m e a n d t h e r e w a s a n i n t e r n a l r e p r i o r it is a ti o n w i th in t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e t h a t m a d e u p t h a t balance of 4.9. A D V G C A B A S H E: S o j u s t – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . I f y o u j u s t r e p e a t th e la s t s e n te n c e th e n I w il l a s k my q u e s t i o n ? 20 MS ROCKMAN: T h e 3 0 m il li o n t h a t w a s a u th o r is e d f o r p a y m e n t i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 b y t h e H O D i t w a s t h e n a p p r o p r i a t e d in t h e s p e c i a l A d ju s t m e n t A p p r o p r i a ti o n A c t . T h e 4 . 9 5 0 m il li o n c a m e fr o m i n t e r n a l r e p r i o r it is a ti o n i n A g r ic u l t u r e a n d 2 5 m i ll io n w a s a d d i t io n a l f u n d in g t h a t w e to o k fr o m a ll o t h e r u n c o m m i t t e d fu n d s a n d m a d e a v a il a b l e in th a t s p e c i a l A d j u s t m e n t A p p r o p r i a ti o n A c t. Page 7 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 ADV GCABASHE: N o w c a n I j u s t u n d e r s t a n d th is c l e a r ly. S o th e 2 5 m il li o n y o u l o o k e d o f i t w i t h i n t h e m o n ie s a v a i l a b l e t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t . MS ROCKMAN: No, no. A ll d e p a r t m e n t s i n t h e p r o v in c e . Everyone w h o h a d u n s p e n t f u n d s . T h a t is o u r s t a n d a r d p r o c e d u r e c o m e J a n u a r y. B e c a u s e i n t h e f ir s t a d ju s t m e n t – s o r r y – I th i n k th e fi r s t A d j u s t m e n t A p p r o p r i a ti o n d e p a r t m e n ts a r e d e f e n s iv e s a y i n g n o w e h a v e c o m m i t t e d t h e f u n d s , y o u c a n n o t ta k e o u r fu n d . S o y o u g iv e th e m t h e b e n e f i t o f the doubt. 10 C o m e J a n u a r y w e d o n o t l is t e n to a n y o n e . c o m m i t t e d o n th e s y s t e m y o u r m o n e y g o e s . I f i t is n o t I t i s a ll Tr e a s u r y ’s u n f o r t u n a t e ly w o r k l ik e th a t . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t is f in e . B u t a t le a s t w e k n o w t h a t i n D e c e m b e r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e , t h e y w e r e c o n s id e r e d a n d y o u w e r e a b l e t o fi n d a n a d d i t io n a l 2 9 . 9 . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : R e a l ly 3 0 m il li o n . MS ROCKMAN: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y. MS ROCKMAN: 20 – ja. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d th is i s i n 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o w h a t w e r e y o u r t o ta ls t h a t w e r e a v a il a b l e ? W e r e y o u a b l e t o m e e t th e 11 4 m il li o n f o r t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 ? M S R O C K M A N : I th in k m o r e o r le s s w e d i d y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E: T h e q u e s t io n I h a v e is r e a l ly r e la t e d t o t h e p l a n n i n g Page 8 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 function of the department. Th e y o b v i o u s ly d id n o t h a v e t h is m o n e y. T h e y h a d n o t – t h e y h a d n o t a s k e d f o r i t o r i g i n a l ly in t h e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 a l lo c a t io n . A n d I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d th e r e g u la r i ty o f w a i ti n g f o r p e o p l e to s c r a m b l e a r o u n d i n D e c e m b e r o f 2 0 1 3 l o o k i n g f o r m o n e y. H o w r e s p o n s ib l e i s t h a t o f a n a c c o u n t i n g o ffi c e r o r is t h e s t a n d a r d I a m s e t ti n g t o o h ig h ? D o e s i t h a p p e n i n t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e t h a t p e o p l e w il l b e s c r a m b l i n g a r o u n d t o tr y a n d fi n d m o n e y f o r s o m e b o d y ? MS ROCKMAN: No. A t t h e s t a r t o f 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 i f y o u g o b a c k t o t h e A n n u a l P e r fo r m a n c e P l a n a n d t h e B u d g e t Vo t e S ta t e m e n t . Th e y d i d 10 p r o v i d e f o r i t . T h e C A S P f u n d i n g o f t h a t 5 3 .9 5 0 a n d t h e 6 0 m il li o n t h a t w o u ld g iv e y o u a l m o s t th e 11 3 m i l li o n t h a t w a s r e q u i r e f o r t h e ir commitment. ADV GCABASHE: I see. M S R O C K M A N : Th e c r i s is c a m e w h e n D O V E s t o p p e d t h e f u n d i n g a n d t h e r e w a s t h a t s h o r tf a ll o f th e 2 9 . 5 s o t h e y h a d n o o p ti o n b u t in a d j u s t m e n t t o c o m e b a c k to u s t o a s k . G u y s w e n e e d t o m a k e u p t h is s h o r t fa ll b e c a u s e t h e C A S P f u n d in g w a s w i t h h e l d . ADV GCABASHE: what did happen. 20 N o I a m s a tis f ie d I t h in k I n o w u n d e r s t a n d c l e a r ly C a n w e t h e n lo o k a t t h e n e x t f i n a n c ia l y e a r 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5 ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s th e [i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t p r o v is i o n w a s m a d e ? MS ROCKMAN: F r o m I n fr a s tr u c t u r e E n h a n c e m e n t A ll o c a ti o n w e m a d e p r o v i s i o n f o r 3 5 m i ll i o n . Th a t w a s i n t h e B u d g e t Vo t e S t a t e m e n t . T h e n g o i n g to w a r d s t h e A d j u s t m e n t A p p r o p r i a t io n t h e r e w a s 1 0 m il li o n in Page 9 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 r e p r i o r it is e d fu n d s a n d p r o v in c i a l o w n r e v e n u e t h a t w a s m a d e a v a i la b le . I n f r a s t r u c t u r e E n h a n c e m e n t A l lo c a t io n w e i n c r e a s e d w i t h t h a t 1 0 m ill i o n f o r fa r m e r s u p p o r t a n d v e t e r in a r y s e r v i c e s w a s d e c r e a s e d w i th 4 m il li o n . B u t f u r t h e r i n th e S p e c ia l A d j u s t m e n t A p p r o p r ia t io n A c t w e r e d u c e d th e In f r a s t r u c t u r e E n h a n c e m e n t A ll o c a t i o n w i t h a f u r t h e r 3 . 8 0 3 m il li o n . ADV GCABASHE: S o y o u r s h o r t a n s w e r is p r o v is i o n w a s m a d e a n d w i t h t h e u s u a l s t a n d a r d w a y o f fi n d i n g m o n e y t h a t w a s a p p l i e d e v e n i n 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5 ? 10 MS ROCKMAN: Ye s . A l t h o u g h i t w a s s h o r t o f th e - w h a t e v e r commitment they had. W h a t th e y h a d f o r e s e e n i n t h e o r ig in a l a g r e e m e n t a s s tr u c tu r e d . A D V G C A B A S H E : N o s a y t h a t a g a i n ? I a m s o r r y I d id n o t – I d id n o t q u i te u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . MS ROCKMAN: I n – f o r e x a m p le i f y o u u s e 11 3 m il li o n w a s t h e c o m m i t m e n t fo r 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: W e c o u ld o n ly m a k e 3 5 m i ll io n a v a i l a b le i n t h e n e x t fi n a n c i a l y e a r. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: For 2014//2015. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: S o i t w a s f a r s h o r t o f – if i t w a s s u p p o s e d to b e 11 3 m il li o n i t w a s f a r s h o r t o f th a t . A D V G C A B A S H E : P l e a s e s to p t h e r e . T h i s is – t h i s is p r e c i s e ly w h a t I Page 10 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e I j u s t h a v e S e c t i o n 3 8 . 2 in m y m i n d a n d S e c t io n 3 8 . 2 o f t h e P F M A s a y s : “ D o n o t c o m m i t a d e p a r t m e n t t o a li a b i li t y th a t y o u h a v e n o t p r o v id e d f o r. ” A n d I t h i n k w h a t w e a r e t e a s i n g o u t n o w is w h a t d o e s p r o v id e d f o r m e a n in r e a l t e r m s . S o i f y o u k n o w y o u a r e o n ly g o i n g t o h a v e 3 5 m i ll io n fr o m a p a r tic u l a r s o u r c e o f f u n d i n g d o e s w h a t t h e H O D s i g n e d u p t o o n t h e 5 J u n e a n d t h e n a g a in o n t h e 5 J u ly c o n s ti t u t e p r o v i d i n g f o r a s s e t o u t in S e c t i o n 3 8 . 2 ? 10 MS ROCKMAN: N o t a t t h e p o i n t o f t h e fi r s t s ig n a tu r e o f th e c o n t r a c t that was then redone. B u t w h e n Tr e a s u r y s i g n e d o ff u l ti m a t e l y w h e n t h e y a s k e d f o r t h a t f ir s t 3 0 m i ll i o n a n d p a r t o f t h e c o n d it i o n s w a s t h e c o n tr a c t m u s t b e r e v i e w e d a n d s o f o r t h I t h i n k t h e M E C s i g n i n g o ff a t t h a t p o in t f u l fi ll e d t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e P F M A t h e R e v e n u e F u n d w a s then committed. A D V G C A B A S H E: O k a y. That helps. That does help. I – I did not r e a l ly w a n t to g o a ll t h e w a y to 2 0 1 8 b e c a u s e I w a s m o r e in t e r e s t e d in w h a t m ig h t h a v e h a p p e n e d u p to t h e t i m e t h a t th e a g r e e m e n t w i th E s ti n a w a s c a n c e ll e d . U n l e s s t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g p a r t ic u l a r ly i m p o r ta n t 20 y o u w a n t t o b r i n g t o t h e C h a ir m a n ’s a tt e n ti o n in r e la t io n to t h e n e x t f e w y e a r s s o 2 0 1 5 /2 0 1 6 , 2 0 1 6 / 2 0 1 7 , 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 y o u m a y – y o u m a y w is h t o d o s o i f y o u r e a l ly th in k i t is i m p o r ta n t f o r t h e C h a ir m a n t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t – w h a t w a s g o in g o n . M S R O C K M A N : I t h in k th e d e ta il s a r e s e t o u t i n t h e – i n t h e a ff i d a v i ts a n d t h e a n n e x u r e s e x c e p t to s a y t h a t f r o m – a t t h e t i m e F D C w a s t h e n Page 11 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 a p p o i n t e d t o ta k e o v e r t h e p r o j e c t t h e r e i s a p o r t i o n t h a t w e n t t o th e s e t tl e m e n t o f E s ti n a b u t a n o t h e r p o r t io n t h e n w e n t to F D C f o r th e o n g o i n g p r o je c t m a n a g e m e n t o f Vr e d e D a i r y. B u t I t h in k t h o s e d e ta il s are set out. ADV GCABASHE: O n e t h e s e c t i o n s t h a t I w o u ld lik e to c o v e r t h is m o r n in g h o w e v e r b r i e fl y i s t h e F D C a p p o i n t m e n t a n d m o n ie s th a t w e r e p a i d t o t h e F D C p a r tic u la r ly b e c a u s e i t i s a n is s u e t h a t h a s c o m e u p a t t h e h e a r i n g s . S o w h e n w e g e t to t h a t y o u m a y f i n d a s p a c e s o m e w h e r e in t h a t . 10 M S R O C K M A N : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: I n t h o s e q u e s t io n s t o e l a b o r a t e o n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r point. M S R O C K M A N : T h a t is fi n e . ADV GCABASHE: Can I then go back to general questions? I have – I h a v e a l w a y s w o n d e r e d w h e t h e r E X C O a t a n y p o in t a n d e s p e c i a l ly i f y o u a tt e n d e d t h o s e m e e t i n g s c o n s i d e r e d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w e r e o t h e r p r o j e c ts t h a t r e q u ir e d fu n d i n g – o t h e r d a i r y p r o j e c ts . S o w e k n o w a b o u t t h e Q w a - Q w a Pr o j e c t . W e k n o w a b o u t t h e S e ts o t o D a ir y P r o j e c t b e c a u s e t h o s e w e r e m e n t io n e d i n t h a t s u b m is s i o n t o t h e P r e m i e r. T h e 20 s u b m is s io n o f t h e 2 8 F e b r u a r y. D id E X C O e x p r e s s a v ie w a t a ll o n h o w those w o u ld b e f u n d e d i f a ll t h e Mohuma Mobung money was e s s e n ti a l ly b e in g c h a n n e l le d to t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t ? MS ROCKMAN: I th in k i t w a s i n c lu d e d in a l l o f t h e d e p a r t m e n ts ’ p r e s e n t a ti o n s w h e n w e w e r e d o i n g t h e b u d g e t p r o c e s s . h a v e b e e n fl a g g e d . So it would But as much as we made provision for Mohuma Page 12 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 Mobung th e n fr o m i n i ti a lly it was set out that we would be s u p p l e m e n t in g fr o m p r o v i n c ia l f u n d in g a n d Vr e d e D a ir y w o u l d b e b r o u g h t i n t o t h e C o n d i ti o n a l G r a n t F u n d i n g . When DOVE stopped I t h i n k th e r e v e r s e d th a t m o s t o f t h e o t h e r p r o j e c t – o t h e r a g r ic u l t u r a l p r o j e c ts w a s f u n d e d t h r o u g h C A S P a n d Il i m a L e ts e m a a n d o u r o w n f u n d i n g f o c u s s e d o n a c c o m m o d a ti n g Vr e d e D a ir y. S o th e o t h e r p r o j e c t s c o n ti n u e d w i th t h e C o n d i ti o n a l G r a n t F u n d i n g . A D V G C A B A S H E: Ye s I w i ll a c c e p t th a t a n d i n te r r o g a te th a t w it h Mr T h a b e th e b e c a u s e I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e v o r a c i ty o f w h a t y o u a r e 10 s a y in g b u t t h a t i s f in e . T h a t i s y o u r in f o r m a t io n o n th e i s s u e . I h a v e o ft e n w o n d e r e d a s w e l l w h y t h e G l e n A g r ic u l t u r a l C o l le g e w a s n o t r e q u e s t e d q u i te e a r ly o n to a s s is t a t th e Vr e d e D a i r y F a r m P r o je c t. Because it would have been a cost saving and what they do at the Glen A g r ic u l t u r a l C o ll e g e I k n o w i n p a r t d e a ls w i th w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a t t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m . D o y o u k n o w – d o y o u h a v e a v i e w o n t h i s ? M S R O C K M A N : N o I h a v e n o – I h a v e n o v ie w. ADV GCABASHE: O k a y. T h a t is fi n e . Then you know – the – a q u e s t io n th e C h a ir m a n h a s a s k e d a c o u p l e o f w it n e s s e s is – c a n a n y b o d y e x p la i n t h e u r g e n c y i n g e tt i n g t h is p a r t ic u l a r p r o je c t o ff t h e 20 g r o u n d in th e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f in a n c ia l y e a r w h e n m o n i e s h a d o b v io u s ly n o t b e e n p r o p e r ly s e t o u t o r p r o v i d e d fo r – f o r t h is p a r ti c u la r p r o j e c t . Yo u d e a l w it h th e s e m a t t e r s a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 2 4 , 2 . 2 .4 t o 2 . 2 .1 3 . S o w e a r e a t Vo lu m e A o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t p a g e 1 7 t o 2 2 . A n d I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o ju s t s p e a k t o t h o s e p o in t s b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e i f y o u c o u ld f i n d – h a v e you found those pages? Page 13 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir m a n . ADV GCABASHE: N o w i f y o u c o u l d a l s o fi n d R e f e r e n c e B u n d le D – R e f e r e n c e B u n d le D ? I t m u s t b e – i t m a y ju s t b e o n e t h a t is u p a t t h e t o p b e c a u s e it is a r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e . M S R O C K M A N : O h o k a y. A D V G C A B A S H E: N o t a n a ffi d a v it b u n d l e . S o i t is R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e – s o i t is E x h i b i t H H R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D . A n d t h e p a g e s th a t c o r r e l a t e to w h a t y o u a r e a b o u t t o d e a l w i t h a r e p a g e s 1 3 6 4 , 1 3 6 – l e t m e g o s l o w ly. M S R O C K M A N : Ye s I a m t h e r e . 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : A r e y o u th e r e ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: S o i t is 1 3 6 4 w h i c h i s a l e t te r b y M r M o s e s e x p r e s s in g c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s . T h e n e x t o n e is 1 3 6 6 – p a g e 1 3 6 6 w h ic h is t h e le t t e r fr o m A d v o c a t e D i t ir a a l s o e x p r e s s in g c o n c e r n s a n d th e l a s t o n e is t h e m o r e i m p o r ta n t o n e o f t h e th r e e . I t is a – i t i s a n e m a il f r o m y o u t o M r B e r t u s Ve n t e r t h a t w i ll b e f o u n d a t 1 3 6 7 . A n d I – I s i m p l y w a n t w i t h o u t g o i n g in t o t h e d e t a il o f t h e s e w a n t t o s a y i f y o u lo o k a t t h e v e r y la s t li n e o n y o u r e m a il y o u s e e m t o b e li e v e th e r e – y o u to o s e e m t o b e l ie v e th e r e is s o m e u r g e n c y in g e t t in g t h i s p r o j e c t o ff t h e g r o u n d . 20 Can you just speak to these issues for us? M S R O C K M A N : I th in k w e n e e d t o g o b a c k t o t h e s t a t e o f th e p r o v in c e a d d r e s s o f t h a t y e a r F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 . T h e p r o j e c t is a n n o u n c e d . T h e n i t is t a k e n u p in t h e Pr o v i n c i a l B u d g e t S p e e c h t h e r e i s r e f e r e n c e t o it . T h e n t h e b u d g e t s p e e c h o f th e d e p a r t m e n t t h e r e is r e fe r e n c e t o i t . N o w that process concludes by March. S o in t h e n e w f in a n c ia l y e a r y o u Page 14 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 e x p e c t d e p a r t m e n ts a r e b e g i n n i n g t o i m p l e m e n t . N o w w e c o m e t o J u n e . Nothing has happened. S o t h e fir s t u r g e n c y is c r e a t e d i n t h e E X C O d e c is i o n t o s a y th a t w a s t h e m e e ti n g o f 1 3 J u n e 2 0 1 2 t h e o n e t h a t w e – t h e r e s o lu t io n is E R 7 w h e r e it s a y s w e k n o w n o w th e b u d g e t p r o v is io n that was made. We know what comes to EXCO was a request for 84 m il li o n . Th e r e s o lu t io n c l e a r l y s a y s th e m a t t e r m u s t g o to Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e a s a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y. I a m t h e n i n f o r m e d b y Mr Ve n t e r o n 1 8 J u n e t h a t is a f t e r t h e E X C O m e e t in g th a t h e h a s r e c e iv e d t h is r e q u e s t fr o m A d v o c a t e D i tir a h e w a s a t t h e ti m e o n le a v e . T h e y th e n 10 s e e t h a t b u t t h e r e is a lr e a d y a n a g r e e m e n t c o n c l u d e d . Th e r e h a s t o b e – th e y h a v e t o l o o k a t i t a n d a d v ic e . I t h e n in f o r m h i m I have also b e e n in f o r m e d t h e r e is a Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e o n t h e 1 9 J u n e o n – a l s o o n a Vr e d e D a ir y m a t te r. N o w w h e n I jo i n e d t h a t Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t te e m e e ti n g t h e - h a d my o w n m e e ti n g a s D G s o I w a s n o t t h e r e fr o m t h e s t a r t . S o I j o in e d t h e m l a te r. S o I – I a m n o t a b le to s a y w h a t w a s th e e x t e n t o f th e d is c u s s i o n s . B u t a t t h e ti m e I j o in e d it b e c a m e v e r y c l e a r t o m e t h a t Tr e a s u r y w a s n o t i n p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t e v e n t h e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s h a d . They – they did not have enough in f o r m a ti o n t o m a k e a n y k i n d o f i n fo r m e d d e c is i o n a n d w e t h e n h a d t o 20 g o t h r o u g h th a t p r o c e s s t o s a y l e t a s A g r ic u l t u r e m a k e a v a il a b l e in f o r m a ti o n t o a l l o f u s s o t h a t w e c a n s e e w h a t is i t t h a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t . B e c a u s e y o u a r e t a k i n g u s b y s u r p r is e b u t e q u a ll y y o u a r e p r e s s u r i n g t h is th i n g m u s t – m u s t s t a r t b e in g i m p l e m e n te d . Our c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h e n w i t h M r Ve n t e r is n o t t h e u r g e n c y t o g e t t h e p r o j e c t i m p l e m e n te d . It i s t h e u r g e n c y to g e t f in a li ty o n c a n w e g e t t h e Page 15 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 fr a m e w o r k d o c u m e n ts in p l a c e s o th a t w e a r e a b l e to r e p o r t t o t h e n e x t E X C O ? C a n w e r e s o lv e t h e m a t t e r o r n o t ? T h a t w a s t h e u r g e n c y I w a s r e fe r r i n g to h i m t o . Yo u w o u ld – y o u w o u l d s e e th a t fr o m t h e la s t e m a i l that you make reference to the one on 1367. Yo u c o u l d s e e I h a d t o g e t c la r i ty fr o m th e H O D A g r ic u l t u r e . I a l s o d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d a l l t h e c o m p le x i ti e s to e n a b l e t h e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s t o s a y, a s w e s t a r t t o tr y t o fi g u r e o u t c a n w e r e d r a f t a n d a d v is e Tr e a s u r y ? A r e w e a b l e t o g e t t o s o m e k in d o f c la r i ty w h e r e w e a r e ? A n d i n t e r m s o f u r g e n c y le t u s tr y t o f in a lis e e n a b l e u s to s a y y e s w e c a n p r o c e e d , n o w e a r e g o i n g t o g o 10 b a c k t o E X C O to s a y w e a r e n o t a b l e t o p r o c e e d . B u t in t e r ms o f t h e u r g e n c y o f s t a r ti n g t o i m p le m e n t i f i t h a s a g r ic u lt u r a l d y n a m ic s w h e t h e r it w a s s e a s o n a l , w h e th e r i t w a s a g r ic u l t u r e w il l b e b e t t e r p l a c e d t o g i v e t h a t o p in i o n . A D V G C A B A S H E: Ye s b e c a u s e I t h i n k w h a t is i m p o r ta n t a s w e l l a b o u t t h is e m a il t h a t y o u w r o t e is i t is w r i tt e n o n th e 2 J u ly b e fo r e t h e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t w a s s i g n e d . A n d a f t e r l is t e n i n g to y o u r t e s ti m o n y y e s te r d a y I r e a l ly w o n d e r e d w h y y o u s i m p ly a n d w h e n I s a y y o u , y o u a s g o v e r n m e n t w o u ld n o t h a v e s a i d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t s c a l e b a c k i t i s o n e o f th e o p t io n s y o u g a v e 20 y e s t e r d a y a s y o u d e s c r i b i n g w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n o r ju s t p o s t p o n e t h is . A n d n o t s i g n t h e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 t h a n d 7 t h J u ly. A n d h e n c e m y q u e s ti o n r e l a ti n g t o w h y y o u s i m p l y d i d n o t s a y a s M o s e s h a d in d i c a t e d in h is e m a i l y o u h a v e n o t p r o v i d e d , y o u c a n n o t d o th is , s to p it . MS ROCKMAN: I th in k w e a r e – w e w e r e a ll fu n c t io n in g th e s a m e Page 16 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 e n v ir o n m e n t a t t h e t i m e . N o w w e h a v e b e e n th r o u g h t h e b u d g e t p r o c e s s . W e h a v e b e e n th r o u g h L e k g o t a l a s . W e k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t i s in t h e b u d g e t . N o w d a y s b e fo r e k n o w in g w h a t t h e b u d g e t is t h e r e i s a s u b m is s io n to E X C O t o s a y, w e w a n t to u p s c a l e t h is p r o je c t. EXCO p r o n o u n c e s i t s e l f. N o w w o u l d i t b e r e a li s ti c t h e n t o e x p e c t w e w o u l d g o b a c k t o s a y n o s c a l e d o w n t h i s th in g y o u d id n o t m a k e b u d g e t p r o v i s i o n f o r i t . M r M o s e s s h a r e d h is c o n c e r n s b u t t h is d o e s n o t r is e to t h e le v e l o f is s u i n g a w r i t t e n a d v ic e fo r a d ir e c ti v e f r o m e x e c u t iv e a u t h o r i t y h a v i n g fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s a s p r o v i d e d f o r in t h e P F M A . 10 c o n c e r n s I t h in k e v e r y o n e w a s in a g r e e m e n t w i t h h i m . H is Everyone had t h e s e c o n c e r n s . Th a t t h e a ff o r d a b ili t y o f t h is w e d i d n o t f o r e s e e a t t h e ti m e of c o m p i li n g the budget for 2012/2013 nor the fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a t i o n s g o in g f o r w a r d g iv e n th e b r o a d e r f is c a l fr a m e w o r k w i t h i n w h ic h w e w e r e o p e r a t in g . A D V G C A B A S H E: N o t h a n k y o u . T h a n k s fo r c l a r i fy i n g th a t . I w o u ld lik e to m o v e o n I a m tr y i n g t o c o n c e r t in a m a tt e r s t h i s m o r n i n g . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E: To m o v e o n to th e n e x t a s p e c t a n d th a t r e la t e s to th e c a n c e l la t io n o f th e Es t in a c o n t r a c t . D id y o u v e r i fy t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s 20 c la i m e d b y Es t in a o n c a n c e l la t io n o f t h a t c o n tr a c t ? MS ROCKMAN: Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w a s n o t i n v o lv e d a t a l l in th e c o n s u l t a ti o n p r o c e s s o f r e a c h in g t h o s e f u n d i n g – th o s e p r o v i s i o n s . A D V G C A B A S H E : A g a in y o u s a y i t i s n o t a n a r e a o f o v e r s ig h t t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e b e e n e x p e c te d to d i s c h a r g e ? MS ROCKMAN: No. We were just not involved. Page 17 of 68 We were not 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 c o n s u l t e d t o s a y t h is is w h e r e w e a r e , t h i s is g o in g t o b e th e fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a t i o n s a r is i n g f r o m a c a n c e l la t io n . W e s u b s e q u e n tl y a s k e d t h e s t a te la w a d v i s o r s h o w d i d – w h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t t h e s e c o n c l u s io n s o n t h e a m o u n t s o w e d w h a t w a s th e p r o c e s s ? A n d t h e y – t h e y c o n f ir m e d t h a t A g r ic u l t u r e c o n f ir m e d to t h e m t h a t t h e r e w e r e o u ts t a n d i n g g o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s i n v o ic e s a n d t h a t t h e y h a d v e r i fi e d i t . So we were not in v o lv e d i n th e p r o c e s s o f q u a n ti f y i n g o r v e r i f y i n g . It was between A g r ic u l t u r e a n d t h e s ta t e l a w a d v is o r s . ADV GCABASHE: 10 O k a y b e c a u s e fr o m w h a t w e h a v e s e e n o f t h e – o f t h e e v id e n c e a n d c e r t a i n l y w h a t M r J a n k ie l s o h n s a i d a s w e l l th is m o n e y w a s n o t d u e . T h i s a m o u n t i s n o t th e a m o u n t th a t w a s d u e . B u t i f y o u s a y y o u h a d n o o v e r s i g h t r o l e i n r e l a ti o n to t h e 2 8 0 m ill i o n t h a t w a s p a i d to E s ti n a w e w il l d e a l w it h it w i th M r T h a b e th e b e c a u s e t h a t is r e a l ly w h e r e w e a r e r ig h t n o w in t h e l e a d i n g o f h i s e v i d e n c e . I now w o u ld lik e to m o v e o n to t h e F D C . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: A n d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e F D C . T h e FD C b e in g t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n . I n o te t h a t y o u s t a te t h a t j u s t o v e r R 3 11 m il li o n w a s n o t e d a s p o s s i b l e i r r e g u la r e x p e n d i tu r e r e g a r d in g 20 Vr e d e D a i r y i n th e f in a n c ia l y e a r 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 . In th e s a m e y e a r t h e r e w a s ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e r e g a r d i n g i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: Th a t c a m e t o 8 1 5 m i lli o n . s u p p l e m e n t a r y b u n d le p a g e 4 - 1 . So if you go to your T h a t is w h e r e y o u - y o u s e t o u t a t a b le s h o w in g t h i s ir r e g u la r e x p e n d i t u r e . I - I g iv e y o u t h e s e f a c ts j u s t Page 18 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 f o r t h e s a k e o f c o n t e x t . W e w i ll c o m e b a c k to t h e m ; b e c a u s e t h o s e … CHAIRPERSON: What is the page on the supplementary? A D V G C A B A S H E : I t i s p a g e 4 1 i n t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y … CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV GCABASHE: D o c u m e n t C h a ir m a n . N o w fir s t t h e r e s o lu t io n o f 1 3 J u n e 2 0 1 2 m a k e s r e f e r e n c e t o th e F D C … M S R O C K M A N : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: D a ir y P r o j e c t . 10 A n d th e F D C p a r t ic i p a ti n g s o m e h o w i n t h is Vr e d e Th e n o n c a n c e ll a ti o n th e r e i s a s p e c i fi c r e s o l u ti o n p a s s e d b y E x c o . T h a t is i n 2 0 1 4 t h a t s a y s th e FD C s h o u ld ta k e o v e r. Yo u w o u ld h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e s e c o n d d e c is io n . I t a k e i t . M S R O C K M A N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: r e q u ir e d to P l e a s e e x p l a in w h y th e F D C w o u ld h a v e b e e n assist because as I understand matters th e ir core c o m p e te n c y is n o t a g r i c u l tu r e . MS ROCKMAN: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t is h o w t h e e x - t h e m e m o r a n d u m c a m e t o E x c o w i t h - w i t h t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . I h a v e n o in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t w h a t s p e c i f ic c a p a c i ty F D C w o u l d h a v e h a d a t th a t ti m e t o b e a b l e t o t a k e o v e r th a t p r o j e c t o n b e h a lf o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f 20 A g r ic u l t u r e b u t t h a t is h o w t h e m a t t e r w a s c o n c l u d e d . ADV GCABASHE: Yo u k n o w I h a v e a c t u a l ly lo o k e d a t th e F r e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n A c t 6 o f 1 9 9 5 a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o b o t h e r y o u a b o u t g o i n g t o lo o k a t t h a t a n d I h a v e lo o k e d a t th e p o w e r s o f B o a r d s o f D ir e c t o r s . I t i s C h a ir m a n i n t h e L e g i s l a tiv e B u n d l e b u t t h e r e is n o p a r t ic u l a r r e a s o n t o - t o p u ll it o u t r i g h t n o w a n d I h a v e l o o k e d … Page 19 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 CHAIRPERSON: B u t j u s t t o r e m e m b e r t h a t s o m e o f i ts s e s s i o n s a r e p h r a s e d v e r y f u n n ily. ADV GCABASHE: Ye s C h a ir m a n b u t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y i t s a y s n o t h i n g a b o u t r u n n i n g a n a g r i c u l tu r a l p r o je c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV GCABASHE: It says a lot about … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : A s s is ti n g p r o je c t s s o u r c e fu n d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . 10 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s I t h i n k o n e o f t h e ir c o r e c o m p e te n c i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV GCABASHE: T h e r e m a y j u s t b e i n th e i n te r p r e t a ti o n o f t h e s e p o w e r s u n d e r S e c ti o n 4 A b e p o w e r s t o a s s is t in m a n a g i n g a p r o j e c t b u t I w o u ld h a v e li k e d t o t h i n k t h a t th a t m a n a g e m e n t m u s t b e t i e d u p w it h t h e c o r e s k il l o f t h e - o f t h e FD C b u t y o u s a y y o u c a n n o t a s s is t u s … MS ROCKMAN: No. I cannot. ADV GCABASHE: In explaining? MS ROCKMAN: In broader background many years before - I cannot e v e n - I - I w o u l d b e g u e s s i n g i f I h a v e to p u t a d a t e to i t . T h e r e u s e d 20 t o b e a - a n e n ti ty c a l l e d A g r i E c o i n t h e Fr e e S t a te a n d th a t w a s a n a g r ic u lt u r a l d e v e l o p m e n t e n ti ty. I t f o c a lis e d - i t fo c u s e d o n s p e c i a l is i n g in a g r ic u lt u r a l p r o j e c ts . T h r o u g h t h e y e a r s I t h i n k i t g o t - i t w a s - in i ti a l ly i t w a s d is b a n d e d a n d b r o a d ly p e o p l e w e r e th in k in g o n e d a y i t w i ll - i t w i ll e v o lv e d p o s s ib ly fr o m F D C a s a - o n e o f t h e ir s tr e a m s o r b u s in e s s u n i ts Page 20 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 but it was not - at the time FDC was appointed I am not aware that t h e r e w a s a n y s p e c i fic a g r ic u l t u r a l e x p e r t i s e o r d e v e l o p m e n t f i n a n c in g e x p e r t is e in F D C t h a t w o u ld m a k e t h e m s u i t a b l e t o ta k e o v e r t h is project. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h is i s - th is r e a lly i s t h e c o n c l u s i o n I h a v e c o m e t o h a v i n g lo o k e d a t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n b o th i n y o u r d o c - i n y o u r s u b m is s io n s a n d h a v i n g l o o k e d a t t h e A c t . I w o u l d l ik e y o u to p le a s e ju s t p ic k u p E R 1 3 w h ic h is i n Vo lu m e A o f w h a t I h a v e b e e n c a l li n g y o u r - y o u r o r i g i n a l s u b m is s io n . It is p a g e 4 - 1 - 4 . 10 M S R O C K M A N : Is it p a g e ? A D V G C A B A S H E : 4 - 1 - 4 . H a v e y o u f o u n d it ? M S R O C K M A N : I a m a t 4 - 1 - 4 . I h o p e i t is th e s a m e 4 - 1 - 4 . ADV GCABASHE: I a m s u r e i t is . N o w t h a t - i f y o u lo o k d o w n a t p r o b a b ly t h e fi f t h o r s ix t h p a r a g r a p h . Th e y s p e a k h e r e to t h e r e s tr u c t u r i n g o f t h e F D C . CHAIRPERSON: Does your 4-1-4 start with th e word “Merger P r o je c ts ” ? A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s t h e c o r r e c t p a g e C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : S o a t p a r a g r a p h - i f I s t a r t w i t h m a j o r a n d c a ll t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h e fi r s t … M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : P a r a g r a p h . I t is o n e , t w o , th r e e , f o u r, f iv e , s ix a n d I r e a l ly w o u ld l ik e y o u t o s p e a k t o a g a in t h e r e a s o n th a t E x c o w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t i t p r u d e n t fo r t h e F D C w h ic h o b v i o u s l y h a d h a d i ts o w n Page 21 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 d i ff ic u l ti e s a n d q u i t e r e c e n t d i ff ic u l t ie s t o b e c o m e in v o lv e d i n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . MS ROCKMAN: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A s - a s y o u in d ic a t e d e a r l ie r I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h e e x t e n t o f c o n s u l t a ti o n s t h a t th e r e m a y h a v e b e t w e e n b e e n b e t w e e n A g r ic u lt u r e a n d F D C a t t h e o n s e t o f t h e p r o j e c t . M r R a m a e m a a t t h e ti m e w a s t h e C E O o f - o f F D C . By th e n h e h a d l e f t a s H O D ( i n d is ti n c t ) . H e f o u n d h i m s e l f i n F D C . S o I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e e x t e n t o f th e s c o p e o f d is c u s s i o n s was. 10 W h e th e r th e r e w e r e a n y d is c u s s i o n s a r o u n d F D C ’s p o s s ib le in v o lv e m e n t b u t a ls o t h e - t h e c o n c l u s io n o f A g r ic u lt u r e t o m a k e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t FD C w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a te n o w to ta k e o v e r t h e p r o j e c t . I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e w a s s p e c i fi c c o n s u l t a t i o n s . I a m - I a m n o t r e a l ly a b le t o g iv e y o u m o r e d e t a i ls t h a n t h a t. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t i s fi n e . W h a t I t h o u g h t I s h o u ld a ls o j u s t - a t le a s t e v e n i f it i s ju s t fo r p u r p o s e s o f p u t ti n g i t o n t h e r e c o r d - i s p o i n t to you ER1-0-7 at page 1-0-3. I beg your pardon. At page 1-3-0-5 to 1-3-0-6. S o t h a t w o u l d b e Vo l u m e C - Vo l u m e C . A t p a g e 1 - 3 - 0 - 5 t o 1-3-0-6. MS ROCKMAN: 1-3-0-5? 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . T h e q u e s t io n is - I a m lo o k in g a t t h e v e r y l a s t p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 1 - 3 - 0 - 5 a n d I w o n d e r i f y o u h a v e i n fo r m a ti o n o n w h e t h e r th e F D C w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t o r a s a m a n a g in g a g e n t o r a s b o th a n d I r e a lly w o u l d l ik e y o u t o h a v e r e g a r d to t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h o f 1 - 3 - 0 - 5 a s y o u r e s p o n d g o i n g a c r o s s to 1 - 3 - 0 - 6 . M S R O C K M A N : C h a ir I a m n o t a b l e to a s s is t y o u … Page 22 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 A D V G C A B A S H E : A s s is t ? M S R O C K M A N : W i th - d e a l w i th c l a r i ty o n th a t . I a m … A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a t i s f in e . M S R O C K M A N : I j u s t d o n o t h a v e e n o u g h in f o r m a ti o n o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S R O C K M A N : H o w t h is a r r a n g e m e n t w a s s tr u c t u r e d b e tw e e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S R O C K M A N : A g r ic u l t u r e a n d F D C . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 M S R O C K M A N : C e r t a i n l y I k n o w F D C t h e n s u b s e q u e n tly a p p o i n te d a n i m p l e m e n ti n g o r a Pr o j e c t M a n a g e r. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: Ja. Let me not confuse it. A Project Manager … ADV GCABASHE: Hm. M S R O C K M A N : To m a n a g e th e d a ir y fa r m o n i ts b e h a l f . T h a t i s a s f a r as I can go. A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u c a n g o b u t c a n I a s k y o u th is g e n e r i c q u e s ti o n ? W o u l d t h e F D C b e e n t i tl e d t o a m a n a g e m e n t f e e ? Yo u k n o w I a m a l w a y s tr y i n g t o tr a c e th e m o n i e s t h a t h a v e b e e n p a id t o i n s t i tu t io n s . 20 T h a t is p a r t o f w h a t w e h a v e t o d o a s t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d - a n d I w a n t t o f in d j u s t i fic a ti o n f o r t h e p a y m e n t o f m o n i e s to a p a r t ic u l a r i n s t it u ti o n . MS ROCKMAN: I think if they do manage a project on behalf of any o th e r d e p a r t m e n t . O b v i o u s l y th e y w o u l d h a v e o p e r a ti o n a l e x p e n d i t u r e w h e t h e r i t is a d m i n is tr a t i o n c o s ts e tc e t e r a . S o I - I w o u l d t h i n k t h a t y e s t h e y - t h e y m a y b e e n t it l e d t o - t o r a i s e a m a n a g e m e n t f e e . Page 23 of 68 If it is 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 in t e r g o v e r n m e n t a l l ik e i n t h is c a s e i t s h o u ld o b v i o u s ly b e a c o n v e n i e n t f e e t o a t le a s t c o v e r e x p e n s e s t h e y w o u l d n o t m a k e m o n e y f r o m i t b u t a t l e a s t t o c o v e r w h a t e v e r o p e r a t i o n a l e x p e n d i t u r e - e x p e n s e s th e y t h e y m a y i n c u r. ADV GCABASHE: S o y o u r e a l ly s u g g e s ti n g t h a t I s h o u l d ta k e t h i s p a r t ic u l a r m a t t e r u p w i t h Mr T h a b e t h e ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : H e is t h e b e tt e r p e r s o n t o a n s w e r ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t h i n k th e H O D a n d m a y b e th e - t h e C E O o f FD C 10 w i ll b e a b l e t o … ADV GCABASHE: Respond? M S R O C K M A N : To r e s p o n d in m o r e d e ta il o n t h e a r r a n g e m e n t b e tw e e n them. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t is f a ir e n o u g h , b u t c a n I t h e n ta k e y o u b a c k t o t h a t v e r y f ir s t p r o p o s i ti o n I p u t t o y o u a b o u t t h e ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i tu r e o f 3 11 m il li o n w h i c h y o u - y o u m e n t io n i n y o u r p a r a g r a p h … ? MS ROCKMAN: Can you just repeat the reference to that paragraph? A D V G C A B A S H E : I t w a s y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t . MS ROCKMAN: Oh, yes. 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : O n p a g e 4 1 y o u h a v e a t a b l e a n d I t h o u g h t th a t w a s r a th e r c o n c e r n in g l o o k i n g a t th o s e a m o u n ts b e c a u s e i t is - e s s e n ti a l ly r e fl e c ts fo r t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 ir r e g u la r e x p e n d i t u r e o f o v e r a b i ll io n R a n d . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . Th is e x tr a c t c o m e s fr o m t h e a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n t s f o r th a t p a r ti c u l a r f i n a n c i a l y e a r. N o w t h e p o s s ib l e Page 24 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 ir r e g u l a r m il li o n . expenditure regarding i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts th e 815.966 Th is h a s n o t h i n g to d o w i th e i th e r Vr e d e D a ir y o r w i t h F D C . T h e s e a r e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts u s e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e t o i m p le m e n t a g r ic u l t u r a l p r o j e c ts o n b e h a l f o f b e n e fic i a r i e s . M o s t ly u t il is i n g t h e C O N D I T I O N A L G R A N T F U N D IN G o f C A S P a n d I li m a / L e t s e m a . S o t h e r e is - t h e r e i s n o d ir e c t li n k t h e r e . T h e s e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts t h e y w e r e i n t r o d u c e d in th e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 fi n a n c i a l y e a r a ft e r t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d r e a l is e d a n d it w a s i n t h e a u d i t r e p o r t s o f t h e p r i o r fi n a n c i a l y e a r s th a t th e r e w e r e p r o b le m s a s th e d e p a r t m e n t 10 w a s p r o c u r i n g o n b e h a lf o f b e n e f ic ia r i e s . T h e r e w e r e th r e e fi n a n c i a l y e a r s t h a t t h e A u d it o r - G e n e r a l m e n ti o n s t h a t w a s u n d e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n . The - the actual services or g o o d s r e n d e r e d , t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s d i d t h e y e x is t ? D id t h e y n o t e x i s t ? S o th e d e p a r t m e n t b r o u g h t i n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts a s a m e c h a n i s m o r t o i m p r o v e e ff ic ie n c y. They were appointed through a tender process a n d I k n o w o f - o f t h r e e t h a t w e r e a p p o i n te d f o r - t h e r e w e r e t h r e e m a in i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts . There seemed to also have been then one or two other i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts i n t h e y e a r s b e t w e e n 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 20 2 0 1 8 /2 0 1 9 a n d a f t e r th e f ir s t te n d e r p e r i o d t h e c o n tr a c t p e r i o d a s e c o n d t e n d e r w a s a d v e r ti s e d a n d a w a r d e d b u t th e y h a v e n o th in g - t h e y - th e y d e a l w it h a l l o t h e r a g r ic u l t u r a l p r o je c ts . N o w th e s e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n ts th e f u n d i n g a l lo c a t e d f o r C A S P a n d I l i m a /L e ts e m a P r o j e c ts w e r e a l r e a d y - 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 th e y w e r e b u d g e t e d a s tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts . S o w h e n i t c a m e t o E s ti n a it w a s Page 25 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 e x a c tl y th e s a m e a r r a n g e m e n t . Th a t p r e c e d e n t h a s - h a d a l r e a d y b e e n c r e a te d t h a t s a y i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t A is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h i s 1 0 p r o j e c ts . I f i t is 1 0 m i ll io n w e t r a n s f e r t h e 1 0 m il li o n t o t h e m . The a g r e e m e n ts w e r e s tr u c t u r e d i n a w a y th a t th e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t w a s a c ti n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r y. S o e q u a lly t h e m o m e n t t h e - t h e f u n d s w e r e t r a n s f e r r e d it b e c a m e u n r e q u i t e d fu n d s . Ceased to be p u b lic m o n e y. S o n o o n e fo ll o w e d i n a u d it a ls o - t h a t a u d it tr a i l . ADV GCABASHE: 10 C a n I a s k y o u t o p a u s e t h e r e b e c a u s e th a t i s p r e c i s e ly w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m s i ts fo r - f o r u s a s a C o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y h a s a n o v e r s i g h t r o l e . Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y is responsible for ensuring that funds that have been allocated are used in a p a r ti c u l a r m a n n e r. I a m r e a l ly j u s t g i v i n g - p u t ti n g i t a s a g e n e r a l s t a t e m e n t . Yo u t h e n c o m e t o a p r o j e c t s u c h a s t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t w h i c h is n o t o n t h e s a m e l e v e l . Yo u c a n n o t d r a w p a r a l le ls b e t w e e n th a t p r o je c t a n d o th e r p r o j e c ts w h e r e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts w e r e a p p o in t e d . Yo u r g e n e r a l s t a te m e n t o n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s I r e a lly h a v e n o d i ffi c u l t w i th b e c a u s e th e r e th e b e n e f ic ia r y d o e s p l a y a p a r t i n a p p o i n t i n g t h e 20 i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t . Th is is r e a ll y y o u r e v id e n c e . A m I c o r r e c t ? M S R O C K M A N : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e b e n e f ic i a r y o r t h e f a r m e r a s M r T h a b e th e c a l ls t h e m w o u l d b e a s s is ti n g i n a p p o i n t i n g t h e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t . M S R O C K M A N : To m y k n o w l e d g e t h a t n o - n o r o le in th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t . Page 26 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 ADV GCABASHE: W e ll I k n o w t h a t M r T h a b e th e ’s v i e w w a s c e r t a i n ly t h a t th e fa r m e r o r t h e b e n e f ic i a r y a s s i s t s i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t b u t i t w a s d i ff e r e n t w i t h - w i t h E s t i n a . W i th E s ti n a t h e r e w a s n o b e n e fi c i a r y. S o t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t w a s a p p o i n t e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t . S o if t h e department has some supervisory role in making sure that monies tr a n s fe r r e d to t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t I u s e d fo r t h e p u r p o s e s t h a t t h o s e m o n i e s w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d f o r. I w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t t h a t t h e w a tc h d o g P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y w o u ld b e c h e c k in g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t in d e e d th is is w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d . 10 T h a t is w h e r e y o u fi t in f o r my p u r p o s e s i n t o t h is e q u a t i o n . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . In t h e s e n s e d i d t h e d e p a r t m e n t m a k e p r o v i s i o n f o r th e b u d g e t ? Is t h e tr a n s f e r s t h a t t h e y h a v e m a d e w i th in t h e p r o j e c t e d - p r o j e c te d s c h e d u le s t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e p r o v i d e d to u s a n d w a s t h e m o n e y tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e e n t i ty a p p o in t e d b u t f u r t h e r t h a n t h a t w h a t th e i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t d id w it h t h e m o n e y ? H o w t h e y h a n d l e d t h e m o n e y, h o w t h e y p r o c u r e d a n d s o f o r t h t h a t i s n o t Tr e a s u r y ’s r o le . ADV GCABASHE: B u t d o y o u n o t i n te r r o g a t e th e a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l p l a n s , t h e a n n u a l p e r f o r m a n c e p l a n s , t h e a n n u a l f in a n c ia l s t a te m e n t s 20 t h a t a p a r ti c u l a r d e p a r t m e n t p r e p a r e s ? MS ROCKMAN: No. A n n u a l p e r fo r m a n c e p la n s a r e d r a f t e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: Yo u g o t h r o u g h n o r m a l ly a s t r a t e g ic p l a n n i n g s e s s i o n o r s o m e k i n d o f s t r a t e g y s e s s i o n . Yo u h a v e y o u r q u a r t e r ly r e v ie w s . I t Page 27 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 b u il d s u p . T h e n y o u f o r m u la t e y o u r a n n u a l p e r f o r m a n c e p l a n . I t g e t s t a b le d in t h e L e g is l a t u r e . It n e v e r g e t s t a b l e d i n th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l f o r e x a m p le . I t - i t g e ts ta b l e d i n t h e L e g is la t u r e b e fo r e th e b u d g e t vote speech of a department. Fr o m th e r e it g e ts referred to the C o m m i t t e e o f t h e L e g is la t u r e t h a t c o n s i d e r s i t . r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b a c k t o t h e L e g is la t u r e . r o l e i n th a t p r o c e s s . relevant P o r t fo li o It r e p o r ts a n d m a k e s Tr e a s u r y d o e s n o t p l a y a T h e r o l e w e w i ll p l a y i s t o e n s u r e th a t w h a t is t a k e n u p i n t h e a n n e x u r e s t o t h e A P P w h e r e y o u b r in g in a n d s e t o u t 10 t h e d e ta ils o f y o u r i n fr a s tr u c t u r e p r o je c ts t h a t t h o s e p r o j e c t s t h e n t a lk to your table. B e fi v e p r o j e c ts t h a t i s i n t h e a d ju s t - in t h e A p p r o p r i a ti o n A c t o r th e A d j u s t m e n t A p p r o p r i a ti o n A c t . A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e t h e d i ff ic u l ty I h a v e w i t h y o u r e x p l a n a t io n is y o u a ls o w e a r th e h a t o f b e i n g a m e m b e r o f t h e L e g is l a t u r e . So not o n ly a r e y o u H e a d o f Tr e a s u r y - Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y. Yo u a ls o h e a d y o u a ls o a m e m b e r o f t h e L e g is l a t u r e a n d w h e n p e o p l e c o m e a n d p l a c e t h e ir b u d g e t s - I w il l c a l l t h e m t h a t j u s t i n a g e n e r a l te r m - a s k i n g f o r m o n i e s o r p a r t ic u l a r i t e m s th a t t h e y h a v e s e t o u t. 20 Yo u a m e m b e r o f t h e L e g is la t u r e . Th e i m p r e s s i o n I a m le f t w i t h w h ic h y o u - y o u m u s t p l e a s e c o r r e c t i f i t is w r o n g - i s t h a t t h e L e g is l a t u r e s i m p ly r u b b e r s ta m p s . D o e s n o t m a k e i n q u ir y a s t o w h y m o n i e s t h a t w e r e s e t o u t in t h e p r e v i o u s y e a r h a v e g o t - h o w t h o s e w e r e u s e d a n d w h y p e o p l e a r e c o m i n g b a c k t o a s k fo r c e r t a i n a m o u n ts . W h y it is th a t i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n ts a r e p e r f o r m i n g t h e w a y Page 28 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 they are performing? W h y it is t h a t t h e A u d it o r - G e n e r a l i s fo r e v e r c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h m o n i e s a r e a c c o u n t e d f o r. W h a t - w h a t is th e r o l e o f t h e L e g is la t u r e i n t h o s e c i r c u ms t a n c e s ? M S R O C K M A N : M e m b e r s o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l d o n o t p a r t ic i p a te i n P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e s . c o m e a n d r e p o r t. T h e y c a n a t te n d a n d w h e n t h e y a r e in v i t e d t o F o r e x a m p l e Tr e a s u r y w o u l d g o a n d r e p o r t t o t h e Fi n a n c e C o m m i t t e e o r t o P u b l ic Ac c o u n t s C o m m i t t e e o n e x p e n d i tu r e tr e n d s , r e v e n u e , a u d i t o u t c o m e s a n d s o f o r t h b u t in t e r m s o f s e p a r a t io n o f p o w e r s th e m e m b e r s o f th e L e g is l a t u r e s e r v i n g in a s p e c if ic P o r t f o l io 10 C o m m i t t e e - fr o m a l l p a r ti e s o b v i o u s l y. T h e y d o t h a t d e t a i le d in t e r r o g a t io n o f th e a n n u a l p e r fo r m a n c e p l a n . T h e r e w o u ld b e r e p o r t s t h a t w e n t b a c k t o t h e L e g is la t u r e i n - in a s i tt i n g o f t h e L e g is l a t u r e t h a t w o u l d h a v e g o t t e n a d o p t e d . Those r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o m m u n i c a t e d to t h e - t o t h e P r e m i e r. Th e n i t g e ts d i s b u r s e d to r e le v a n t d e p a r t m e n t s . E a c h o n e d e a l s w i t h h i s o r h e r - h e r o w n s e c ti o n . We must a g a in r e s p o n d . W h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e a u d it r e p o r ts th a t b e lo n g s t o th e P u b l ic A c c o u n ts C o m m i t t e e . So as you table your annual report with t h e a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts i t g e ts r e f e r r e d f o r c o n s id e r a ti o n t o t h e 20 P u b l ic Ac c o u n ts C o m m i t t e e . A ll d e p a r t m e n ts e v e r y y e a r g e t s c a ll e d i n . Auditor-General a r e p a r t o f t h o s e s e s s io n s . Tr e a s u r y i s p a r t o f t h o s e s e s s io n s a n d t h e y in t e r r o g a t e t h o s e r e p o r ts . E q u a l ly t h e y f o r m u l a t e r e s p o n s e s o r th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o t h e L e g is la t u r e . I f t h e L e g is la t u r e a p p r o v e s fo r e x a m p l e u n a u th o r is e d e x p e n d i t u r e . Page 29 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 T h e y m a y r e c o m m e n d it w i t h f u n d i n g o r w i t h o u t f u n d i n g . If u n a u th o r is e d e x p e n d i t u r e is r e c o m m e n d e d w i t h f u n d i n g i t m e a n s w e h a v e t o f in d t h e m o n e y in t h e b u d g e t t o f u n d . I t is a u th o r is e d w i th o u t f u n d i n g t h e d e p a r t m e n t m u s t a c c o m m o d a t e th a t f u n d in g fr o m w i th in i ts own budget. W e t h e n f o r m a li s e t h a t in t o a fi n a n c e b il l i n a n y p a r tic u l a r fi n a n c i a l y e a r b u t a s w e s i t th e r e I a m n o t a b l e t o s a y t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r A g r i c u l tu r e s a i d X , Y, Z a b o u t t h e s e A P P s , a b o u t t h e e x e c u t io n o f t h e p r o j e c t , a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e y c o n d u c t e d s i te 10 v is it s a n d s o f o r t h . T h e r e - t h e r e a r e p e o p l e r e l e v a n t in t h e L e g is la t u r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e P u b l ic Ac c o u n ts C o m m i t t e e . T h e y m a y b e a b l e t o s h e d l ig h t o n th e L e g is l a t u r e ’s h a n d l in g o r p r o c e s s in g o f m a t t e r s r e l a t e d t o a g r i c u l tu r e in c l u d i n g Vr e d e D a ir y a n d i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s d u r i n g th e p e r i o d . A D V G C A B A S H E : S o y o u a r e s a y in g in y o u r t e r m a s M E C a t n o s t a g e d i d a n y o f th e r e l e v a n t P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e s a s k y o u t o c o m e i n a n d a d d r e s s t h e m o n t h e is s u e s t h e y w e r e p ic k in g u p ? MS ROCKMAN: 20 No. I t h in k I - I h i g h li g h t in - it is e i th e r t h e m a i n a ffi d a v i t o r t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t t h a t I th in k is i t to w a r d s 2 0 1 8 I w a s i n - i t w a s t h e fir s t t i m e w e w e r e i n v i t e d t o a c o m m i t t e e m e e ti n g t o c o m e a n d e x p la i n a n d th e d a t e o f t h a t m e e t in g c o i n c id e d w i t h a b y - e l e c t io n i n my c o n s ti t u e n c y a n d w e s e n t a r e p o r t a n d w e s a i d o ffic i a ls w il l b e a b l e if th e y c o n t in u e t o g o a n d p r e s e n t b u t I h a d r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s i n t h e c o n s t i tu e n c y f o r th e b y - e l e c t io n . Page 30 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 I w a s la t e r i n f o r m e d t h a t t h a t m e e t in g w a s p o s tp o n e d . So I d o n o t - t h a t w a s th e o n ly m e e ti n g - I a m n o t ta lk in g a b o u t t h e n o r m a l P u b l ic A c c o u n ts C o m m i t t e e M e e t i n g s a n d Fi n a n c e C o m m i t t e e M e e ti n g s where we - we would be reporting on Pr o v i n c i a l In c o m e and E x p e n d i t u r e - t h o s e t h i n g s w e w o u l d h a v e r e p o r t e d b u t o n Vr e d e D a ir y s p e c i f ic a l ly. T h a t is t h e o n ly P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e s p e c if ic a l ly th a t I w a s in v i te d t o . A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d o n t h a t o c c a s io n y o u c o u l d n o t a tt e n d ? MS ROCKMAN: 10 Ye s ; a n d i t w a s t o w a r d s I t h i n k 2 0 - s o m e w h e r e in 2018. ADV GCABASHE: M a y b e t h is is a - a g o o d ti m e b e c a u s e w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t t h e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l a n d t h e P u b l ic Ac c o u n ts C o m m i t t e e . M a y b e t h is i s a g o o d ti m e j u s t t o - t o h e l p t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d t h e C h a ir m a n u n d e r s ta n d h o w tr a n s f e r f u n d s w e r e in t e n d e d t o b e r e p o r t e d a n d - a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r i n r e la t io n t o i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts w h i c h is w h y I a m ju s t p u t t in g t h e t w o is s u e s to g e th e r. W e h a v e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n ts w h o a r e g iv e n a l u m p s u m . H o w d o t h e y a c c o u n t f o r t h a t? I know there has been a long debate. Just take us through that debate. 20 MS ROCKMAN: T h a n k s C h a ir. T h a t i s t h e tw o y e a r d e b a t e t h a t w e - t h a t w e h a d o n th e a c c o u n ti n g tr e a t m e n t o f tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts . As it a p p e a r s n o w i n a l l t h e - a ll t h e a n n u a l r e p o r ts . I t is i n t h e r e p o r t o f th e A c c o u n ti n g O ffic e r. I t g e ts d i s c l o s e d a s tr a n s f e r p a y m e n t t o e n ti ti e s o th e r t h a n p u b l ic e n t it i e s . S o a n y o n e e ls e t h a t t h a t y o u tr a n s fe r r e d m o n e y to w h e t h e r i t Page 31 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 is u n iv e r s i ti e s , p r iv a te b u s in e s s , s p o r ts c l u b s a n y o n e e ls e . Yo u d e c la r e it a s s u c h . S o i n t h is c a s e I - I h a v e e x tr a c t e d t h e r e l e v a n t s e c t i o n s fr o m a l l th o s e a n n u a l r e p o r ts t o s a y i t w a s d is c l o s e d . I t i s a tr a n s fe r t o Vr e d e D a ir y. I t h i n k th e f ir s t y e a r i t w a s t o E s ti n a a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly i t w a s Vr e d e D a i r y a n d t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s d is c lo s e d a n d t h e p u r p o s e a n d t h e p u r p o s e w o u l d b e p r o j e c t i m p l e m e n t a t i o n a n d t h e a m o u n t w o u ld b e r e fl e c t e d a n d i t e n d s th e r e . T h e r e w e r e n o f u r t h e r d e ta il s t h a n th a t a n d t h a t w a s w h a t t h e A G w a s r a is i n g t o s a y it is f i n e . Yo u t e ll u s s a y f o r e x a m p l e y o u h a v e tr a n s f e r r e d 1 0 m il li o n . 10 H e w a n t e d to k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e 1 0 m i ll io n a n d b e c a u s e i t w a s c la s s if i e d a s a tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t t h e r e w a s n o r e q u ir e m e n t t o f u r t h e r s e t o u t t h e d e ta ils o f th e 1 0 m i ll io n . It w a s n o t b r o k e n d o w n f u r th e r in t o g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s … ADV GCABASHE: Hm, hm. MS ROCKMAN: O r a n y o th e r c a t e g o r y o f - o f y o u r s t a n d a r d c h a r t o f accounts. CHAIRPERSON: P l e a s e j u s t r e f r e s h m y m e m o r y o n h o w a tr a n s f e r p a y m e n t c o m e s a b o u t . N o w le t u s g o b a c k t o t h e b a s is . W h a t - w h a t is 20 a transfer payment? How does it come about? MS ROCKMAN: W e - w e - e s s e n ti a l ly it i s w h e n y o u d o n o t in t e n d t o p r o c u r e g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s y o u r s e l f - o n - f o r - b y y o u r s e l f a s a d e p a r t m e n t. Yo u d o n o t g o t h r o u g h y o u r o w n t e n d e r p r o c e s s o r a q u o t e - process of quotations. Yo u ta k e th e 1 0 m il li o n a n d y o u h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t . Yo u tr a n s f e r th e m o n e y a s is t h e r e . S o … Page 32 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n a g r e e m e n t w it h w h o m ? W i t h t h e p e r s o n to w h o m you want to … M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s f e r th e m o n e y ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . W h e th e r i t is a p r i v a t e b u s i n e s s y o u w i ll s a y I a m g iv i n g y o u 1 0 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS ROCKMAN: Th e r e - t h e s e s h o u l d b e a n S L A o r a - s o m e k i n d o f c o n - c o n tr a c t u a l a r r a n g e m e n t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: T h e tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts u s u a l ly g e ts r e f le c t e d a s i f i t r e l a t e s to in fr a s tr u c t u r e f o r e x a m p l e . It w o u l d b e i n fr a s tr u c tu r e . C a p it a l e x p e n d i t u r e w o u ld b e n e w i n fr a s t r u c t u r e . C a p i ta l e x p e n d i t u r e c u r r e n t w o u l d b e m a in - m a in t e n a n c e . S o t h e r e is a - I h a v e s e t o u t in d e t a i ls … C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in - ja , I k n o w y o u … M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D e a l t w i t h - w i th t h e is s u e q u i t e a t le n g th . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I d i d r e a d - r e a d th a t b u t I j u s t - th a t w a s a b o u t t w o d a y s a g o i f n o t t h r e e , b u t w h a t - w h a t in s tr u m e n t m a k e s p r o v is i o n f o r t r a n s f e r p a y m e n t s i n G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts o r i n Tr e a s u r y ? MS ROCKMAN: I t h i n k b r o a d l y p r o v is i o n is m a d e i n th e P F M A , t h e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s , y o u r s t a n d a r d c h a r t o f a c c o u n ts . I t is p r o v id e d f o r b u t o b v i o u s l y w i th c e r ta in c o n d i t io n s t h a t h a s t o b e m e t w h e n y o u Page 33 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 m a k e s u c h t r a n s f e r p a y m e n ts . I t i s f o r e x a m p l e - y e s te r d a y I m a d e r e fe r e n c e t o t h e tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts w e m a k e t o n o n - p r o f i t o r g a n is a ti o n s through social development. C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t w o u ld b e s a y fo r e x a m p l e y o u a r e D e p a r t m e n t o f Social Development. M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d t h e p o s t o ff ic e o r y o u n e e d c a s h p a y m a s te r s e r v ic e s o r y o u n e e d s o m e e n ti ty to p l a y a r o l e th a t w il l f a c il it a t e t h e e x e c u ti o n o f fu n c t io n s th a t y o u h a v e t o d o a s a d e p a r t m e n t . Is t h a t a 10 good example? MS ROCKMAN: Ye s C h a ir I w il l r a t h e r u s e a n e x a m p l e i n o u r provincial context. CHAIRPERSON: MS ROCKMAN: Ye s . W e h a v e e a r l y c h i l d h o o d d e v e l o p m e n t c e n t r e s th a t r e n d e r s s e r v i c e s , b a s i c a ll y o n b e h a l f o f g o v e r n m e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w h a t d i d y o u s a y, w h a t c e n tr e ? MS ROCKMAN: E a r ly c h i ld h o o d d e v e lo p m e n t c e n t r e s [i n d i s t i n c t ] fo r e x a m p l e o r o r p h a n a g e s o r c h i l d r e n i n d is t r e s s . So those are all tr a n s fe r p a y m e n ts w e – t h e r e ’s a f o r m u l a t h a t ’s s e t o u t i n w h a t e v e r 20 relevant to say X amount per day per child you get to an amount so that amount g e ts simply tr a n s f e r r e d to that n o n - p r o fi t o r g a n is a ti o n . O b v io u s ly th e y m u s t b e r e g i s te r e d , t h e y m u s t c o m p ly w i t h c e r t a in r e g u la t io n s a n d c o n d i ti o n s b u t n o o n e f o l lo w s th a t m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: B u t d o n ’ t t h e y h a v e t o a c c o u n t t o y o u a n n u a l ly a s to h o w th e y u s e d t h e m o n e y y o u g a v e t h e m b e f o r e y o u g iv e th e m a n o t h e r Page 34 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 amount next year? MS ROCKMAN: T h e r e w o u l d b e a r e p o r ti n g m e c h a n is m t o s a y t h e y m u s t s u b m i t r e p o r t s to S o c i a l D e v e lo p m e n t n o t t o Tr e a s u r y a n d i n t e r m s o f N P O A c t th e y w o u l d p r o b a b ly s u b m i t f i n a n c ia l s ta t e m e n ts t o t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f S o c i a l D e v e l o p m e n t , s o it ’s r e g u l a te d b u t i t b e c o m e s i m p o s s ib l e fo r u s o r t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l to g o – i m a g i n e h o w m a n y o f t h e s e s m a ll e n t i ti e s h e w o u ld h a v e t o a u d i t b e c a u s e n o w w e ’r e t a lk in g h u n d r e d s o f m il li o n s o f r a n d s . S o tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t s a s s u c h i s n o t a p r o b l e m , i t ’s t h e u ti li s a t io n th e r e o f . I t b e c a m e a p r o b l e m t h a t I 10 d o n ’t t h i n k a n y o n e f o r e s a w th a t i t is g o i n g t o r e a c h t h e s t a g e w h e r e q u e s t io n s w o u l d b e a s k e d o n t h e u t il is a t io n a n d th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts o n b e h a l f o f b e n e fi c ia r i e s a n d I t h i n k A d v o c a t e m e n ti o n e d y e s t e r d a y, i t to o k u s a s i g n i fic a n t p e r i o d o f t i m e , t w o y e a r s b a s ic a lly t o g e t t o fi n a l i ty a r o u n d c l a s s i fi c a t io n a n d u lt i m a t e ly i t a ffe c te d t h e w h o l e c o u n tr y it w a s n o t a F r e e S t a t e is s u e . I t a ff e c t e d e v e r y o n e e q u a lly o n h o w w e ’ v e b e e n d e a li n g w i t h c l a s s i f ic a t i o n o f tr a n s fe r p a y m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l t h e e x a m p l e y o u m a k e o f e a r ly c h i ld h o o d c e n tr e s w o u l d th o s e e n ti t ie s b e r e g a r d e d a s i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts o r 20 n o t , i n o t h e r w o r d s d o y o u a s s o c i a te t r a n s f e r p a y m e n ts n e c e s s a r il y w i t h i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts o r n o t n e c e s s a r i ly ? MS ROCKMAN: N o t n e c e s s a r il y o n ly a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t i n t h e s e n s e th a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h i t i n a g r ic u lt u r e b u t w h e n t h e y r e n d e r a s e r v ic e o n b e h a l f o f g o v e r n m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t is a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t , i t ’s a c ti n g o n b e h a l f Page 35 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 of Government? MS ROCKMAN: Ye s I t h i n k t h a t w o u ld b e b r o a d l y m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t in t h e e x a m p l e th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n o f e a r l y c h i l d h o o d c e n tr e y o u w o u ld n o t v i e w t h e c e n tr e in t h a t w a y w o u l d y o u ? MS ROCKMAN: T h e y e s s e n ti a l ly r e n d e r a s e r v ic e o n b e h a l f o f g o v e r n m e n t t h e y a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly i m p l e m e n ti n g s o m e t h i n g o n b e h a l f of government. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s s o – b e c a u s e I’ m tr y i n g to s e e w h e th e r, w h e n y o u m a k e t h a t tr a n s f e r to a n e n ti ty s u c h a s a n e a r ly c h il d h o o d c e n tr e w h e t h e r y o u a r e m a k i n g a d o n a t io n b e c a u s e th e y p e r f o r m t h e k i n d o f f u n c t i o n s t h a t y o u r e c o g n is e a r e i m p o r t a n t i n s o c i e ty a n d t h e r e fo r e , b e c a u s e y o u h a v e m a d e a d o n a ti o n m a y b e th e r e m i g h t n o t b e a n e e d f o r c e r ta i n t h in g s o r a r e t h e y i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s o r is it n o n e o f th e above? MS ROCKMAN: T h e a c c o u n t in g tr e a t m e n t , C h a ir o f d o n a t io n s a n d g i f ts is s e p a r a t e a g a in . A n y d o n a t io n / g i f t a b o v e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 y o u n e e d a u t h o r i s a t io n o f t h e l e g is la t u r e i t ’s d is c l o s e d s e p a r a te ly s o w e ’r e n o t g iv i n g t h e m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t ’s n o t a d o n a t i o n ? MS ROCKMAN: It ’s n o t a d o n a t i o n n o b u t u l ti m a t e l y a t th e c o n c l u s io n o f th is p r o c e s s t h e tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts t o – d o w e c a ll th e m N P O ’s o r in t h a t s e c t o r w a s e x e m p t e d fr o m t h e c l a s s i fi c a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what you have just said. MS ROCKMAN: A t t h e e n d o f t h a t p r o c e s s o f t h i s c l a s s i fi c a t io n is s u e Page 36 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 b e t w e e n tr a n s fe r p a y m e n ts a n d g o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s f o r i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts , a l th o u g h w e s a i d w e w e r e o f t h e o p i n io n th a t th e p r i n c i p l e a p p li e d t h e y w e r e e x e m p te d fr o m t h e c la s s if ic a ti o n t h a t m e a n t t h a t t h e y h a d t o – a l l th e d e p a r t m e n ts h a d t o r e - c la s s i fy fr o m tr a n s f e r p a y m e n t s to goods and services. T h e s o c ia l d e v e l o p m e n t s e c to r w a s e x e m p t e d fr o m t h a t , s o th e r e w a s a r e c o g n i ti o n i t’s n o t e x a c tl y t h e s a m e a s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t . CHAIRPERSON: MS ROCKMAN: 10 CHAIRPERSON: MS ROCKMAN: CHAIRPERSON: E a r l y c h il d h o o d c e n tr e s ? Ye s . Ye s , s o t h e y w e r e e x e m p te d fr o m th a t . They were, at the end of the process exempted. O r d i d t h a t m a k e a p a r t ic u l a r i n s tr u m e n t t o be…[intervenes]. MS ROCKMAN: I th i n k th a t w a s i n t h e f in a l g u i d a n c e is s u e d b y N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y it w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d t h a t t h e e x e m p t io n a p p li e s to t h i s , t h i s a n d t h i s c a t e g o r i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o t h e c o n c e p t o f t r a n s fe r p a y m e n ts , y o u s a y is p r o v i d e d f o r i n th e P F M A i n o t h e r i n s tr u m e n ts ? MS ROCKMAN: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s Tr e a s u r y r e g u l a ti o n s , y e s C h a ir. A s s u c h w i t h i n g o v e r n m e n t i t ’s a c c e p t e d w h a t d id c a u s e s o m e p r o b l e m o r d e b a t e s w a s h o w i t w a s u t il is e d i n c e r ta i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h i c h t h e n g a v e r i s e t o th e t w o y e a r d e b a t e o r d is c u s s io n th a t y o u t a l k e d a b o u t , is th a t r i g h t ? MS ROCKMAN: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s , n o w w i th r e g a r d t o i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts in – Page 37 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 w h e r e y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t y o u h a v e t o u s e tr a n s fe r p a y m e n ts o r is t h e r e a n o t h e r w a y o f tr a n s fe r r i n g m o n e y t o t h e m o t h e r t h a n t h r o u g h th e tr a n s f e r p a y m e n t m e c h a n is m ? MS ROCKMAN: I n t h is c o n t e x t t h a t w e a r e d e a l i n g w i th , o f a g r ic u lt u r e t h a t i s h o w i t w a s s t r u c t u r e d , t h e f u n d i n g w a s t r a n s f e r r e d t o th e m , t h e y p r o c u r e d o n b e h a l f o f b e n e f ic ia r i e s a n d t h e a r g u m e n t t h e n w a s t h a t t h e y d id n o t n e e d to f o l lo w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS ROCKMAN: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Pr o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s . Pr o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s o r p r o c u r e m e n t p o lic i e s . Ye s , y e s b u t t h a t w a s w r o n g w a s i t n o t ? MS ROCKMAN: I t h i n k th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l c o n s is t e n t ly r a i s e d t h e is s u e f o r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s u n til t h e c la r i fi c a t io n w a s fi n a l is e d t o s a y, n o t h e y s h o u ld u s e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m u s t t e l l m e w h a t y o u r o w n o b s e r v a t io n s o f – y o u w e r e t h e M E C f o r fi n a n c e o r I ’ m n o t k e e p i n g u p w i t h w h e n y o u w e r e D G w h e n y o u w e r e M E C f o r f i n a n c e b u t th e i m p r e s s io n I g e t fr o m w h a t I h a v e b e e n t o l d a b o u t th e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t s in th e Vr e d e D a ir y c o n te x t gives me the impression that c ir c u m v e n ti n g p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s . 20 th is was ju s t a way of T h a t ’s t h e i m p r e s s i o n I h a v e , it ’s n o t t h e f i n a l i m p r e s s i o n , I ’l l h e a r m o r e e v i d e n c e , m a y b e I’ ll c h a n g e t h e w a y I’ m t h in k i n g a b o u t i t n o w b u t w h a t c a n y o u s a y to m e a b o u t t h a t , i f y o u a r e a b le t o s a y a n y t h in g ? MS ROCKMAN: I t h i n k b e c a u s e w e h a v e k n o w n th is a r r a n g e m e n t o f i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts fr o m b e f o r e Es t in a a t t h e t i m e i t w a s i n tr o d u c e d i t wasn’t new but we were very aware of the concerns raised by the Page 38 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 A u d i t o r G e n e r a l in t e r m s o f f o l lo w th e m o n e y t h a t y o u c o u l d n o t fo ll o w t h e m o n e y, w h e n t h e tr a n s f e r w a s m a d e it w a s m a d e . There was no f u r th e r tr a c e a n d I t h in k w e d id s h a r e h is c o n c e r n s a b o u t v a l u e f o r m o n e y w it h a ll i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t s , n o t o n ly t h e [i n d is t in c t ] a d d i t io n a l g r a n ts [ i n d is t in c t ] b u t a l s o E s t in a . I t is a c o n s is te n t p a t t e r n t h a t w e s h o u l d b e e n s u r in g t h a t th e s e v a l u e fo r m o n e y t h a t g e t’s t r a n s f e r r e d . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e s o m e h o w, a p a r t f r o m t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h e t h e r a d e p a r t m e n t lik e th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e s h o u ld n ’t – d o e s n ’t h a v e o r d id n ’t h a v e p e o p le w it h t h e r e l e v a n t s k il ls a n d 10 q u a li fi c a t io n s t o d o w h a t w a s n e c e s s a r y, l e a v i n g t h a t a s i d e a n d assuming that they didn’t have. If t h e r e ’s a n o b l i g a t io n o n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e to e n s u r e th a t y o u k n o w t a x p a y e r s m o n e y a l lo c a t e d to i t i s u s e d p r o p e r l y a n d t h a t - a n d t h e y j u s t a p p o in t a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h i t s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n d o n e h e r e , i t s e e m s t h a t, in e ff e c t y o u a r e t a k i n g ta x p a y e r s m o n e y j u s t g iv i n g i t t o s o m e b o d y w i t h o u t b e i n g a b l e t o e n s u r e t h a t, t h a t s o m e b o d y w i ll u s e t h a t m o n e y p r o p e r l y a n d f o r w h a t i t i s s u p p o s e d t o b e u s e d fo r, t h a t ’s t h e i m p r e s s i o n I h a v e , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u a r e a b le t o c o m m e n t o n that? 20 MS ROCKMAN: Ye s C h a ir, I t h i n k w e h a d n o o th e r in s i g h t o n h o w E s ti n a , s p e c i f ic a ll y w a s i d e n ti f ie d a s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n ’ t a p u b l ic p r o c e s s . W h a t w a s ill u s tr a t e d o r p r o v id e d to u s t o s a y i t is a s i m i la r t y p e o f a r r a n g e m e n t , th e y w e r e o n a m u c h b i g g e r s c a le , a g r ic u lt u r e s a i d t o u s w e h a v e p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n ts , f o r e x a m p l e w i t h V K B w h a te v e r i t is t h a t V K B d o e s b u t t h a t is h o w i t w a s Page 39 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 c o n te x t u a l is e d t o s a y i t i s n o d i ff e r e n t f r o m o t h e r e x i s t i n g p a r tn e r s h i p a g r e e m e n ts , th o u g h i t m ig h t b e a t a b i g g e r l e v e l b u t th e c o n c e r n w a s c o n s i s te n t th a t t h e w a y in w h i c h w e d e a l w i t h m o n e y fo r v a l u e is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts h a s b e e n a c o n c e r n fo r th e b e t t e r p a r t o f a t l e a s t s e v e n /e i g h t fi n a n c i a l y e a r s . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u g e t t o k n o w, e i t h e r a t s o m e s t a g e d u r in g t h o s e y e a r s o r a f te r t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a d s t a r t e d h e a r in g e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g to E s ti n a th a t E s ti n a a c t u a l ly, a s a c o m p a n y h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i t h f a r m in g a n d a g r ic u l t u r e a t t h e ti m e i t w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d t h a t 10 a c t u a ll y a t th e ti m e i t w a s a p p o i n t e d i ts f in a n c e s o n w h a t w e h a v e b e e n t o l d , I t h i n k i t h a d 1 6 c o m m a s o m e t h in g r a n d in i ts a c c o u n t in c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s c o n c lu d e d w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e r e q u ir e d i t t o c o n t r i b u t e m il li o n s i n t o t h e project. D i d y o u g e t t o k n o w a b o u t t h a t a t s o m e s t a g e d u r in g t h o s e y e a r s o r o n ly w h e n t h e C o m m i s s io n w a s h e a r i n g e v i d e n c e ? MS ROCKMAN: N o , n o s u c h i n f o r m a t i o n w a s m a d e a v a il a b l e t o e i t h e r m y s e l f a s D G a t t h e ti m e , t h i s p r o j e c t s t a r te d o r t o Tr e a s u r y in t h a t Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t te e m e e t i n g a n d t h e e x c h a n g e o f d o c u m e n ts t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g th a t s u g g e s t e d th a t a d u e d i li g e n c e e x e r c is e w o u ld h a v e 20 p r o v i d e d u s w it h t h is in f o r m a t io n . I t h in k t h a t w a s r e l a tiv e ly n e w to u s w h e n s u c h i n fo r m a ti o n w a s p r o v i d e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n , t h a t w a s n o t k n o w n t o u s a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: O f c o u r s e w h a t i t d o e s r a is e i s t h e i s s u e o f o v e r s i g h t o n th e p a r t o f th e Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y w e t a lk e d a b o u t t h a t y e s te r d a y, w e t a l k e d a b o u t th e l i m i ta t io n s a n d s o o n b u t i t m u s t b e c o n c e r n in g o r i t Page 40 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 m u s t h a v e c o n c e r n e d y o u q u i t e a lo t w h e n y o u d i d h e a r t h a t b e c a u s e y o u m u s t h a v e th o u g h t , w e ll w h a te v e r l i m it a ti o n s w e m u s t h a v e , w e m a y h a v e h a d , t h e r e m u s t b e a w a y o f p ic k in g u p s o m e t h in g l ik e th a t i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r. T h a t’s my t h i n k in g n o w, w h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t ? MS ROCKMAN: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d a g r e e t h a t i t r a is e s c o n c e r n s b u t a t t h a t ti m e , t h i s w a s b e f o r e t h e i n tr o d u c ti o n o f t h e c e n tr a l s u p p ly d a t a b a s e s y s t e m w i t h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, s o I t h i n k r e g i s t e r in g a n e n ti ty o n t h e d a ta b a s e w a s a l m o s t m u c h e a s i e r t h a n i t is to r e g i s te r o n C S D in t e r m s o f w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d . 10 S o I t h i n k t h e in tr o d u c ti o n o f C S D b y N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s b r o u g h t i n a l o t o f a d d i ti o n a l i n te r n a l c o n tr o ls . I t w o u ld h a v e p r o b a b ly b e e n w i s e t o s a y i f w e u n d e r t a k e th is k i n d o f p r o j e c t , li k e i n m a n y o t h e r ty p e o f p r o j e c t s a t e n d e r w o u l d b e a d v e r t is e d t o s a y a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r o r a b id d e r m u s t il l u s tr a t e fi n a n c i a l c a p a c i ty w i th a b a n k a c c o u n t s t a te m e n t , h e m u s t h a v e R 1 0 i n t h e b a n k . S o I t h in k th e m e c h a n is m s e x i s te d i t i s i n h o w w e u ti li s e d t h e m t h a t e x p o s e d u s t o a n u n n e c e s s a r y r is k p r o b a b ly, in t h i s c a s e . I t h i n k th e r e w e r e v a r io u s o th e r th i n g s t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t c o u l d h a v e d o n e t o m i ti g a te a g a i n s t p o s s i b le r i s k s , to e m b a r k o n th is p r o j e c t b u t a s th e A u d i t C o m m i t t e e i ts e l f o f a g r ic u l t u r e r e f le c t s i n a n u m b e r o f a u d it 20 r e p o r t s , t h e r is k c o m p o n e n t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s v e r y n e w a n d v e r y u n d e r c a p a c i t a t e d , I t h i n k b o t h i n te r m s o f n u m b e r s a n d i n te r ms o f a b il i ty to e x e c u te . T h e r e a r e o b v i o u s c h a l l e n g e s w i t h t h e p u b li c p r iv a te p a r t n e r s h i p a r r a n g e m e n ts i n g o v e r n m e n t p u r e ly b e c a u s e t h e y ta k e – i t ’s a g e n e r a l p e r c e p t i o n t h a t th e y t a k e f o r e v e r to g e t o ff t h e g r o u n d a n d t o g e t p r o j e c t s m o v in g . S o t h e r e ’s a l w a y s a r e l u c t a n c e a g a i n s t t h e P P P Page 41 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 f o r m a t w h e n y o u w a n t t o s t a r t i m p le m e n t in g a p r o j e c t b u t I w o u l d a g r e e t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e p r o b a b ly h a v e b e e n o t h e r w a y s to m i t i g a t e a g a in s t t h e f in a n c ia l r i s k s th a t th e p r o j e c t b r o u g h t w it h i t . CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y, h a d th is b e e n p u t t o t e n d e r th is w o u ld h a v e – E s ti n a , i f i t ’s fi n a n c i a l s i t u a t i o n w a s th e w a y i t h a s b e e n d e s c r i b e d t o t h i s C o m m is s i o n a n d i f i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i th f a r m in g o r a g r ic u l t u r e i t ’s u n lik e l y t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p o in t e d ? MS ROCKMAN: O n i ts o w n w i t h o u t h a v i n g t h e b a c k g r o u n d , tr a c k r e c o r d o r c a p a c i ty i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n c h a l le n g i n g to b e a p p o i n t e d o n 10 it s o w n t h o u g h i t c o u l d h a v e g o n e in t o a s p e c i a l p u r p o s e k i n d o f v e h ic le t h r o u g h a j o in t v e n t u r e o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t d o y o u s a y t h e t e n d e r – i f th is h a d b e e n s u b j e c t e d to a te n d e r p r o c e s s t h e s e i s s u e s w o u ld h a v e c o m e o u t i n t e r m s o f w h e r e – in w h i c h s e c to r d o e s i t o p e r a t e , w h a t e x p e r i e n c e d o e s it h a v e , w h a t i s i ts fi n a n c i a l m u s c l e p a r t i c u l a r ly i f t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s g o i n g t o r e q u ir e t h a t w h ic h e v e r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r is a p p o in t e d w o u ld h a v e t o m a k e a c o n tr i b u ti o n o f m il li o n s i n t o t h e p r o je c t? MS ROCKMAN: Ye s y o u r b i d s p e c i fi c a t i o n s w o u ld h a v e g o n e i n to f a r m o r e d e t a i ls t o s a y t h e t y p e o f b id d e r th a t w e a r e lo o k in g f o r o r t h e 20 ty p e o f p a r tn e r t h a t w e a r e lo o k i n g fo r m u s t h a v e t h i s c e r t a i n l e v e l o f e x p e r t is e , t h e y m u s t h a v e p r o v e n fi n a n c i a l m u s c le t o a c e r ta in q u a n tu m , y o u r b id s p e c i f ic a ti o n p r o c e s s w o u l d h a v e n a r r o w e d d o w n a n d m i ti g a te d in i ts e lf a g a i n s t t h e r is k th a t y o u w o u ld expose the department to. CHAIRPERSON: But you would agree, would you not that even if we Page 42 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 w e r e d e a l in g w i t h c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h i c h j u s ti f ie d n o t p u t ti n g th is t h r o u g h a t e n d e r p r o c e s s a n y h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t o u g h t to h a v e d o n e th e n e c e s s a r y h o m e w o r k to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y d id n ’t a p p o i n t a c o m p a n y t h a t h a d R 1 6 i n i ts b a n k a c c o u n t a n d r e q u ir e d t o p a y m i lli o n s o f r a n d s in t o t h e p r o je c t. MS ROCKMAN: C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d s a y t h a t i s r e a s o n a b le . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV GCABASHE: C h a i r p e r s o n j u s t t o a d d o n e l it t le p i e c e to w h a t y o u ’v e b e e n d e a l in g w i th n o w, t h e r e le v a n t s e c ti o n i n t h e P F M A is 10 s e c t io n 3 8 1 J t h a t s p e a k s to t h e t h i n g s th a t y o u ’r e r a is i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: B e f o r e f u n d s c a n b e tr a n s fe r r e d c e r ta i n t h i n g s m u s t b e in p l a c e i n t h e e n t i ty o f t h e tr a n s fe r s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: To w h ic h t r a n s f e r i s b e i n g m a d e y e s . A D V G C A B A S H E: Ye s t h e o t h e r p r o v i s i o n w o u ld b e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n 8 . 4 . 1 , s o i t ’s s e c t io n 3 8 1 J r e a d w i t h Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n 8 .4 . 1 w h ic h s p e a k s to t h e c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s th a t y o u h a v e b e e n summarising. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A D V G C A B A S H E: Thank you. A n d t h e q u e s t io n t h e n s t il l r e m a i n s a s w h a t is th e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y ’s r o le i n e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e s e p a r ti c u l a r p r o v i s i o n s a r e c o m p l ie d w i t h . CHAIRPERSON: ADV GCABASHE: Ye s . C h a ir m a n I s e e t h a t w e h a v e g o n e b e y o n d q u a r te r p a s t, I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to p u s h u n ti l t w e lv e b e c a u s e i f w e d o , w e Page 43 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 w i ll b e d o n e o r i f y o u w o u l d r a t h e r t a k e a s h o r t b r e a k n o w ? CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, I t h i n k l e t ’s t a k e t h e s h o r t b r e a k s o w e m ig h t e n d u p g o i n g t o q u a r te r p a s t o r t h e r e a b o u t . ADV GCABASHE: I ’ v e t a k e n n o te o f y o u r r e q u e s t y e s t e r d a y C h a i r m a n a n d e d i te d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: J a a s lo n g a s y o u d o n ’t f e e l th a t t h e r e a r e i s s u e s t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o d o j u s t ic e t o , s o i m p o r t a n t i s s u e s . ADV GCABASHE: CHAIRPERSON: 10 N o t a t a ll C h a ir. J a , o k a y a lr i g h t w e w i ll t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w it ’s t w e n ty f o u r m i n u t e s p a s t w e w i ll c o m e b a c k a t t w e n t y to t w e lv e , w e adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: M s R o c k m a n y e s t e r d a y I w a s tr y i n g t o h a v e a n i d e a a b o u t h o w m u c h th e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t w a s p a y i n g p e r d a y f o r th e N e w A g e m u s t h a v e s e e m e d t o h a v e fo u n d t h a t a t t h e r e l e v a n t t i m e w h ic h w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d o r w h e n i t s t a r te d a r o u n d J u n e 2 0 1 0 i t w a s a c o p y o f th e N e w A g e w a s R 3 .5 0 w h i c h m e a n s – o f c o u r s e w e – I 20 d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r a n y b o d y h a s e s t a b l is h e d e x a c t ly h o w m a n y c o p i e s were = the Provincial Government agreed to buy per day but if it was 4 0 0 0 t h a t w o u l d b e 4 0 0 0 x R 3 .5 0 a n d l e a v in g o u t 5 0 c e n ts th a t m e a n s p e r d a y it w o u l d 3 x 4 0 0 0 t h a t is I t h in k R 1 2 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a d a y. A m I r i g h t? I th i n k ju n i o r c o u n s e l is m u c h m o r e c l u e d u p o n t h e s e t h i n g s R 1 2 0 0 0 0 .0 0 a d a y i n fi v e d a y s t h a t w o u ld R 6 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 H m ? Page 44 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 A D V G C A B A S H E: I a m a d v is e d i t w o u l d b e R 1 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 C h a ir m a n . L ik e y o u I d i d n o t d o t h e m a t h s o n t h i s o n e . T h e b r a i n s h a d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I a m n o t g o i n g to c o n t in u e . J u s t s h o w s i t w a s a g o o d d e c i s i o n to ta k e l a w n o t – n o t a n y t h i n g e ls e . So about R 1 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 . S o i n fiv e d a y s th a t w o u l d w h a t a b o u t R 6 0 0 0 0 .0 0 ADV GCABASHE: 60. CHAIRPERSON: O r t h e r e a b o u t a n d s o o v e r a m o n t h y o u c o u ld b e lo o k in g a t a b o u t j u s t u n d e r R 2 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 o r R 1 8 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 o r th e r e a b o u t . T h a t is w h a t y o u c o u l d b e lo o k in g a t . 10 ADV GCABASHE: Per month. CHAIRPERSON: A month hm. O k a y. Yo u m i g h t b e m u c h b e t te r o ff w i t h – w i t h fi g u r e s I a m n o t s u r e . MS ROCKMAN: Th e l a t t e r p a r t C h a ir p e r s o n s o u n d e d m o r e – m o r e a c c u r a te b u t I t h i n k w e d i d i n d ic a te y e s t e r d a y w e w il l e x tr a c t th a t in f o r m a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll e x tr a c t – y e s , y e s . M S R O C K M A N : I n f o r m a t i o n a n d p r o v i d e i t to t h e c o m m i s s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . A n d i t m a y b e – i t m a y b e t h a t i t d o e s a lr e a d y e x i s t w it h in t h e r e c o r d s o f th e c o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e o f t h e 20 e v i d e n c e a b o u t G C I S a n d Mr M a n y e a n d i t m a y b e t h a t it e x is ts b u t it w o u ld b e c o n v e n i e n t i f i t c o u l d b e e x t r a c te d a g a i n . J a s o – b u t i t i s n o t a s m u c h a s th e fir s t f ig u r e th a t I m e n t io n e d . Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M s R o c k m a n ju s t o n e o r t w o q u e s t io n s s ti ll r e la t e d to tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts t h a t I j u s t w a n t t o e i th e r c la r i fy o r c o n f ir m w it h y o u . Page 45 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 1 . N o t a l l tr a n s fe r p a y m e n ts c o n t a i n c o n d i t io n s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Some do other do not. MS ROCKMAN: C h a ir I th i n k in g e n e r a l t h e r e w o u ld b e c o n d i ti o n s w h e t h e r i t is a n a ti o n a l c o n d it i o n a l g r a n t o r w h e t h e r i t is l ik e I n f r a s t r u c t u r e E n h a n c e m e n t A ll o c a ti o n t h a t w o u l d a l s o s t ill c o m e w i t h c o n d i ti o n s . A D V G C A B A S H E: O k a y s o y o u s a y t h e g e n e r a l r u le i s t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e c o n d i ti o n s ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . 10 ADV GCABASHE: Attached with it. MS ROCKMAN: W h e t h e r i t i s a n a t io n a l o r a p r o v in c i a l ty p e o f g r a n t a n d t h e n b e t w e e n t h e r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t h e c o n d i ti o n s a r o u n d p a r t ic u l a r tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t fo r p a r t ic u l a r p u r p o s e s w o u ld b e s e t o u t in a S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t a t th e v e r y l e a s t . A D V G C A B A S H E : H m o k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . I d i d n o t r e a l is e t h i s w a s o n . ADV GCABASHE: Ye s I w a s w o n d e r i n g if I s h o u l d s a y s o o r n o t. I le a r n t a t m y p e r il th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is n o t h in g c o n c e r n i n g s e c u r i ty. Ye s t h a n k y o u . 20 A D V G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: I j u s t h a v e a n a p p o in t m e n t t o k e e p w h ic h I s e e w e – I a m n o t – I w il l n o t b e a b l e t o k e e p u n ti l – I t h o u g h t w e w o u ld f in is h b y t w e lv e b u t l e t u s c o n ti n u e . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e n th e n e x t is s u e r e a l ly i s j u s t t o p o i n t o u t m o r e f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s t h a t t h e Fr e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e A p p r o p r i a ti o n A c t o f Page 46 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r d e f i n e s tr a n s f e r s a n d s u b s i d i e s a s a n d I quote: “ A n y p a y m e n ts m a d e b y P r o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t t o a n o t h e r o r g a n o f s t a te o r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h t h e r e le v a n t d e p a r t m e n t d o e s n o t r e c e i v e a n y th in g o f s i m il a r v a lu e d ir e c t ly i n r e tu r n a n d in c l u d e s t h e p a y m e n t o f c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n ts . ” I j u s t t h o u g h t i t is a p p o s i te t o p u t t h a t i n fo r p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d C h a ir m a n . Yo u a r e h a p p y e n o u g h w i t h t h a t ? 10 M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a n k s C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E: Th e q u e s ti o n r e a l ly w o u l d t h e n b e – I k n o w t h i s w a s t h e A p p r o p r i a ti o n Ac t o f 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 b u t t h e d e f in i ti o n w o u l d n o t c h a n g e o v e r th e y e a r s ? M S R O C K M A N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. It w o u ld – t h e r e m i g h t b e m i n o r a m e n d m e n ts b u t t h e e s s e n c e o f i t w o u l d r e m a in . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . N e x t q u e s ti o n . I s i t c o r r e c t th a t w h e r e tr a n s fe r o f f u n d s a r e n o t u s e d fo r th e in t e n d e d p u r p o s e o r w h e t h e r is a f a il u r e to a c c o u n t f o r th e ir u s e t h e y c a n b e r e c la i m e d ? M S R O C K M A N : I th in k t h a t w o u l d b e th a t g e n e r a l r u l e . 20 ADV GCABASHE: It is the general rule? M S R O C K M A N : T h e g e n e r a l u n d e r s ta n d i n g j a . ADV GCABASHE: But reclaimed by whom? M S R O C K M A N : B y t h e tr a n s f e r r i n g d e p a r t m e n t . A D V G C A B A S H E : A g a in P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y in t h is in s ta n c e w o u ld n o t h a v e a r o l e – a d ir e c t r o l e ? Page 47 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 MS ROCKMAN: No. A D V G C A B A S H E : I n th a t r e c l a i m in g p r o c e s s . MS ROCKMAN: No. ADV GCABASHE: observation. T h e n t h e l a s t q u e s ti o n r e a lly is r e a lly m o r e o f a n A n d t h a t is th a t t h e 2 0 1 8 d e c is i o n o r g u i d e l in e s fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y h a v e r e s o lv e d h o w tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t s s h o u l d b e c la s s if i e d w h e r e g o o d a n d s e r v ic e s a r e b e in g p r o c u r e d t h a t w o u ld g e n e r a l ly fa ll w i t h i n th e – t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a n d if n o t t h e r e is s ti ll a c a te g o r y f o r s tr a i g h t f o r w a r d tr a n s f e r p a y m e n ts ? 10 M S R O C K M A N : T h a t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d b y i m p li c a t io n i t n o w means that with the r e c l a s s i fi c a t io n e x e r c is e th e depart – all d e p a r t m e n ts a ffe c te d h a v e t o g o b a c k i n t i m e a n d s ta r t r e c l a s s i fy in g a n d s t a r t c le a r i n g o u t w h a t e v e r t h e is s u e s w e r e . So if you had c la s s if i e d a tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t o f 1 0 m il li o n y o u w il l h a v e to r e c l a s s i fy n o w th a t 1 0 m il li o n a n d b r e a k i t u p i n t o g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s a n d y o u m u s t p r o v i d e y o u r r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t s – s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ta t io n to ju s t i fy th e a ll o c a t io n o f t h a t 1 0 m i ll io n a c c o r d i n g ly. A D V G C A B A S H E: Ye s b u t i t – th e – t h e g u i d e o r t h e i n s tr u c t io n w a s backdated to 2016 if I am not wrong. So it is as of 2016? 20 M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e y w o u l d h a v e to g o t h r o u g h t h a t e x e r c is e . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: O k a y. C a n I th e n j u s t b r i n g y o u b a c k to w h a t s t a r t e d th is d is c u s s io n w h ic h w a s t h e s c h e d u l e y o u h a d p u t o n y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t p a g e 4 1 . W e w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ir r e g u la r Page 48 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 e x p e n d i t u r e a n d t h e fi r s t o n e y o u t h e n d e a lt w i th w a s p o s s i b le ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e r e g a r d i n g i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t s . T h a t w a s th e 8 1 5 m il li o n ju s t o r a l m o s t 8 1 6 m i ll i o n a n d y o u e x p l a i n e d t h a t i t d id n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n i t is o n ly in r e la t io n to Vr e d e b u t i t c o u l d b e f r o m a n y w h e r e e l s e . M S R O C K M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n y e s I e x p l a i n e d t h i s w a s e x c lu d in g Vr e d e . A D V G C A B A S H E : I t e x c lu d e d Vr e d e ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A D V G C A B A S H E: Good. T h e o n e I a m n o w i n t e r e s te d i n is t h e p o s s i b le i r r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e r e g a r d in g Vr e d e D a ir y o f 3 11 m ill i o n . 10 N o w 3 11 m i lli o n r e p r e s e n ts j u s t t h a t o n e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 7 t o 2 0 1 8 o r does it go beyond that? M S R O C K M A N : Th a t is a le v e l o f d e t a i l I d o n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o a t t h i s s t a g e . T h i s is a c a lc u l a ti o n d o n e b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t. I t is a u d i te d b y t h e A G s o I w o u l d n o t h e r e b e a b le to s a y h o w t h a t 3 11 m il li o n is broken down. W h e th e r it is o n ly E s t in a , w h e t h e r i t i n c l u d e s e v e n th e tr a n s fe r p a y m e n ts t o F D C a s w e ll . S o t h a t is a d i ffe r e n t l e v e l o f d e t a ils t h a t I d id n o t h a v e a t m y d is p o s a l h e r e . A D V G C A B A S H E: I u n d e r s t a n d th a t a n d I w o u l d h a v e a s s u m e d th a t i t in c l u d e s m o n ie s t h a t w e r e p a i d to F D C b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s 20 of 2014. M S R O C K M A N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: B u t m y q u e s ti o n w a s t h a t t h a t fi g u r e s r e p r e s e n t s ir r e g u l a r – p o s s ib le ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e r e g a r d in g Vr e d e D a ir y i n t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 . M S R O C K M A N : T h a t i s a ll ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e u n d e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . I t Page 49 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 m i g h t n o t b e o n l y f o r th a t p a r t ic u l a r fi n a n c i a l y e a r. A D V G C A B A S H E: Ah so – are you sure about that because I mean w h e n y o u l o o k a t th is s c h e d u le t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r i t c l e a r l y s a y s 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 ? W h y w o u l d i t in c l u d e o t h e r s y e a r s i f t h e n o te h e r e s a y s 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 ? A n d i f y o u l o o k a t y o u r – y o u r a ff id a v i t i n f a c t y o u fi n d t h a t t h e r e a r e o th e r i r r e g u l a r it i e s t h a t y o u h a v e n o te d i n t h e s a m e a ff id a v i t. I j u s t d i d n o t w a n t t o g o in t o a ll t h a t d e t a i l . S o t h is i s p a g e 4 1 . M S R O C K M A N : I a m j u s t t r y in g t o fi n d t h e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n t i ts e lf . I t i s d is c l o s e d 1 7 / 1 8 i n t h i s i n s t a n c e m e a n s i t is d is c l o s e d a s a t t h e 10 fi n a n c i a l y e a r e n d in g 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 8 . A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . B u t i t c o v e r s – a l l I w a n t t o e s t a b l is h is th a t i t c o v e r s t h a t 1 2 – p r e c e d i n g 1 2 m o n th p e r i o d o r d o e s i t g o b e y o n d t h a t ? Is i t a c u m u l a ti v e a m o u n t ? M S R O C K M A N : I t m ig h t b e a c u m u l a tiv e . ADV GCABASHE: Over the years. ADV GCABASHE: Amount ja. ADV GCABASHE: It might be you say? MS ROCKMAN: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ar e y o u a b l e t o e s ta b l is h t h a t f o r u s a n d j u s t s e n d 20 u s th e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ta t io n th a t s u p p o r t s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? B e c a u s e I w i ll t e l l y o u w h y t h is is o f i n te r e s t c e r t a i n ly t o u s a s e v id e n c e le a d e r s is b e c a u s e i f i n o n e f i n a n c ia l y e a r th e r e w a s ir r e g u la r e x p e n d i t u r e r e g a r d in g Vr e d e D a ir y o n l y o f R 3 11 m i ll io n t h a t i s a l a r g e s u m o f m o n e y. MS ROCKMAN: T h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g C h a ir t h a t i s – i t is Page 50 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 a c c u m u la t iv e . I k n o w t h e ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d it u r e r e g a r d i n g i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts t h e d is c lo s u r e o f 8 1 5 i s a c c u m u l a tiv e fr o m th e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 fi n a n c i a l y e a r. ADV GCABASHE: I – I t h i n k th a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n w o u ld r e a ll y a p p r e c ia t e a li t e r a l ly one pager if you would with supporting d o c u m e n t a ti o n s o t h a t w e a r e l e f t w i t h t h e c o r r e c t i m p r e s s i o n a s t o w h e t h e r a ll t h i s w a s s p e n t i n o n e y e a r p a y in g f o r s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d a t Vr e d e D a i r y o r i f i t w a s a c u m u la t iv e a m o u n t g o in g b a c k to s a y 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 ? 10 M S R O C K M A N : W e w i ll c e r t a i n l y b e a b le t o e x t r a c t t h a t C h a ir. A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e o t h e r – o t h e r ir r e g u l a r it i e s r e a l ly I d o n o t t h in k I w a n t t o to u c h o n C h a ir m a n t h e y a r e i n t h e a ffi d a v it a n d th e y r e a l ly c o n c e r n l a r g e ly fa il u r e to c o m p ly w i t h . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P r o c e d u r e s a n d th e l ik e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e l l if t h e y a r e y o u k n o w y o u w o u l d h a v e h e a r d m e say to Ms Rockman yesterday part of my concern was that in her a ffi d a v i t s h e d i d n o t s e e m t o d e a l w it h t h e q u e s ti o n o f n o n - c o m p li a n c e s a n d w h o d i d n o t c o m p ly w i t h w h a t . 20 S o i f t h e r e a r e – i f t h e y r e la t e t o n o n - c o m p li a n c e s m a y b e y o u c a n j u s t d e a l b r i e fl y w i th t h e m . A D V G C A B A S H E : C e r t a i n l y S ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : I n fa c t i f I c o u l d j u s t t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a g e 4 1 I j u s t f o u n d i t q u it e c u r i o u s t h a t t h e s e c o n d i t e m o n t h a t i n c id e n t l is t t h e 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 o n e s e c o n d i t e m r e a d s : Page 51 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 “ D e v i a ti o n s a p p r o v e d b y t h e A c c o u n t in g O ffi c e r n o t a c c e p t e d . ” T h e i m p r e s s i o n I w a s l e f t w i th a n d i t p r o b a b ly is m y fa u lt n o t Mr T h a b e th e ’s is t h a t o n c e a n A c c o u n t i n g O f fi c e r h a s d e c id e d t o d e v i a t e n o b o d y c a n q u e s t io n i t. B u t i t is o b v io u s t h a t w h e n o n e r e a d s t h i s l i n e it e m R 2 m i ll io n w o r t h o f m o n e y s p e n t o n a d e v i a ti o n th a t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e A c c o u n t in g O ff ic e r b u t n o t a c c e p t e d i s s o m e th in g t h a t w o u l d b e noted. MS ROCKMAN: Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. u l ti m a t e ly n o t a b s o l u t e . 10 I t – th e d e c is io n is I t is s ti ll s u b j e c t t o r e v i e w. It must be r e a s o n a b l e , t h e n a t u r e o f th e d e c is io n m u s t r e a s o n a b le , j u s t if i a b le . W e h a d a v e r y l o n g p a r t o f t h e e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h t h e A G o v e r p r o b a b ly a t w o p e r i o d w a s t h e i m p l ic a ti o n s o f a u d i ti n g t h e d is c r e ti o n o f a n A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r. A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s M S R O C K M A N : B u t t h a t d i s c r e ti o n i s n o t a b s o l u te . I t h i n k w e h a v e – w e r e a c h e d c o m m o n g r o u n d o n t h a t a n d I w a s in f o r m e d b y t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s th a t a j u d g m e n t o f t h e c o n s t i t u ti o n a l c o u r t in Ta s i m a a ls o b r o u g h t fi n a l c la r i ty a r o u n d w h a t is a n a d m in is tr a tiv e a c t a n d h o w i t r e m a in s i n e ff e c t u n t il i t i s s e t a s i d e . S o I t h i n k a l l p r o v i n c ia l , n a ti o n a l 20 g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts o r th e b r o a d e r p u b l ic s e c t o r h a s to in t e r n a l is e t h e i m p l ic a ti o n s o f t h a t a c t a n d h o w it g e ts p e r m e a t e d t h r o u g h s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s th a t i f s o m e t h i n g i s f o u n d ir r e g u l a r h o w d o w e d e a l w i th i t . Yo u c a n n o t – it c a n n o t b e f o u n d ir r e g u l a r a n d it is ju s t l e f t t h a t w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I m u s t c o n f e s s t h a t w h e n I r e a d y o u r a ffi d a v i t o n Page 52 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 t h is i s s u e I w a s s u r p r i s e d t h a t y o u a n d w h o e v e r fr o m t h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y, t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d I t h i n k t h e A c c o u n t a n d G e n e r a l o r I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l a s w e ll w e r e a l l c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h e t h e r t h is w a s a d m i n i s tr a t iv e a c ti o n o r not and – I did not understand that because you people are not a court. Yo u k n o w i t i s a c o u r t t h a t h a s t o d e c id e w h e t h e r a n a d m i n i s t r a t iv e a c ti o n is r e a s o n a b l e o r ju s ti fi a b l e o r n o t. Yo u p e o p l e a r e n o t c o u r t s . S o y o u r o w n r o le a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t w o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t a n d I g a i n t h e i m p r e s s io n a n d y o u m u s t ju s t fe e l f r e e t o m a k e y o u r o b s e r v a t io n s a r e i t 10 s e e m e d t o m e I g a i n e d t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t s o m e b o d y w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o u n j u s ti fi a b l y p r e v e n t p e o p le fr o m s c r u ti n is i n g a c t io n th a t th e y a r e e n t i tl e d t o s c r u ti n is e . M S R O C K M A N : I th i n k C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s t h e b a s is f o r d i s c l o s i n g t h e e x p e n d i t u r e a s p o s s i b l e ir r e g u l a r o r n o t . I t h i n k th a t w a s t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t … M S R O C K M A N : W h e r e t h e m a t t e r s t a r t e d fr o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e q u e s ti o n … MS ROCKMAN: A n d c e r t a i n ly i f – i f t h e e x p e n d i tu r e w a s d e c la r e d ir r e g u l a r y o u w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t s o m e o n e … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Something must be done. M S R O C K M A N : J a s o m e o n e w o u l d h a v e t o g o t o c o u r t t o s e t a s i d e th e agreement. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll – w e l l I d o n o t k n o w w h y y o u w o u ld n e c e s s a r ily think about going to court. Because I mean you – you agreed y e s t e r d a y t h a t P r o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y p l a y s a n o v e r s i g h t r o l e – p e r fo r ms Page 53 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 a n o v e r s ig h t r o le . T h e r e m i g h t b e l i m it a ti o n s b u t y o u – t h a t i s p a r t o f it s fu n c t io n . N o w m o n i to r i n g m u s t m e a n y o u a r e c h e c k i n g w h e th e r t h i n g s h a v e b e e n d o n e p r o p e r l y o r a r e b e i n g d o n e p r o p e r ly. And o b v i o u s l y t h e r e m u s t b e s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e a b l e t o d o i f y o u p ic k u p t h a t s o m e t h in g is n o t b e in g d o n e p r o p e r l y. And I would just be s u r p r is e d i f w h a t it m e a n t i s t h a t y o u m u s t n o w g o t o c o u r t e a c h t i m e y o u p ic k u p s o m e t h i n g i n th e e x e r c is e o f y o u r m o n i to r i n g e x e r c is e . E a c h ti m e y o u m u s t g o t o c o u r t in s te a d o f s i tt i n g d o w n w i th t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t w h o e v e r a n d s a y, b u t t h i s i s n o t r ig h t . A n d g e t ti n g i t s o r te d 10 o u t . I m e a n h o w m u c h m o n e y w i ll e n d u p b e i n g u s e d fo r g o i n g t o c o u r t if e a c h t i m e y o u p ic k u p s o m e th in g th a t i s – th a t is n o t b e i n g d o n e p r o p e r ly y o u m u s t g o to c o u r t . I t h i n k l a w y e r s w i ll b e v e r y r i c h . M S R O C K M A N : Ye s I th i n k C h a i r p e r s o n i f y o u – i f y o u r e a d t h r o u g h t h e a u d it a n d a c c o u n t i n g tr e a t m e n t s e c ti o n I t h i n k w e d e t a il e d t h e r e s p o n s e o f th e H O D to t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l t h a t s e ts o u t t h a t b a s is a n d i f y o u r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tly – w h e r e th is s ta r t e d J u n e 2 0 1 2 w h e n t h e m a t t e r fir s t w a s b r o u g h t t o th e P r o v i n c ia l A c c o u n t a n d G e n e r a l s h e h a d a lr e a d y a d v is e d a t t h a t p o in t th a t t h i s m a y b e i r r e g u l a r. S o i t is n o t li k e i t w a s n o t k n o w n . B u t t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty i n t h is c a s e w a s w i t h t h e Ac c o u n ti n g 20 O ff ic e r. N o tw i th s ta n d i n g m a n y y e a r s o f a d v is o r s to s a y b o t h A u d it o r G e n e r a ls s a y i n g t h e s e a r e o u r a u d i t fi n d i n g s . B u t h e v e r y f ir m ly s e t o u t t h e g r o u n d s o n w h ic h h e d is a g r e e s w i t h t h e A u d it o r G e n e r a ls f i n d in g s . N o w t h e r e is n o b a s is fo r Tr e a s u r y t o t h e n s a y w e a r e i n s tr u c ti n g y o u t o d e c l a r e t h is i s ir r e g u la r. U l ti m a t e ly. CHAIRPERSON: No, no. Page 54 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 M S R O C K M A N : I t is h is a c t io n b u t in t h e b r o a d e r c o n t e x t it s h o u l d b e t h e A c c o u n t in g O ff ic e r t h e n t h a t r e v e r s e s h is o w n d e c i s i o n . T h a t w o u l d b e th e r e a s o n a b le e x p e c t a ti o n . I t – I a g r e e w i t h y o u i t s h o u l d n o t b e n e c e s s a r y f o r Tr e a s u r y o r a n y o n e e ls e t o h a v e to a p p r o a c h c o u r t . s h o u l d b e t h e Ac c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r ta k i n g t h e c o r r e c ti v e a c t i o n . It But in t h is c a s e t h e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t t h a t h e – t h a t h e d i d n o t f o l lo w t h e correct procedure. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t a ls o I w o u l d h a v e i m a g i n e d t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e m e c h a n is m s t h a t c a n b e – c o u l d b e i n v o k e d i f th e r ig h t a u t h o r i ty 10 w h e t h e r y o u s a y th e r i g h t a u t h o r i ty i s th e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l o r Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y s a y s b u t t h is i s n o t r ig h t . W e a r e g iv e n t h e o b li g a t i o n t o m o n i t o r. Yo u a r e n o t g i v e n t h e o b li g a t io n t o m o n i t o r y o u r s e l f. W e a r e t h e o n e s w h o a r e g iv e n t h e o b l ig a ti o n t o m o n i t o r y o u . W e lo o k a t t h i s , w e s a y th is is ir r e g u la r. I f i t is q u i t e c l e a r w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e a s f a r a s P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y is c o n c e r n e d a n d h e d is a g r e e s th e r e m u s t b e a m e c h a n is m . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w o u l d in c l u d e a p p r o a c h i n g t h e M E C , a p p r o a c h i n g t h e P r e m ie r o r w h a t e v e r b u t t h e r e s h o u l d b e – t h e r e s h o u l d b e a w a y i n w h ic h s o m e b o d y ’s a u th o r it y is a c c e p t e d b y t h a t f u n c t i o n a r y t o s a y w e ll o n c e th is a u t h o r it y h a s s a i d t h is s h o u l d b e 20 c h a n g e d th e n I m u s t d e c i d e . should go. I f I d o n o t w a n t to c h a n g e i t m a y b e I I f I f e e l s o s t r o n g ly a b o u t i t b u t o n c e t h e r i g h t a u th o r it y s a y s i t is n o t r i g h t a n d t h e y h a v e h e a r d m y s id e th e y a r e n o t p e r s u a d e d t h e r e s h o u ld b e f in a l i ty. S o I a m j u s t s h a r in g w i th y o u t h e i m p r e s s i o n I h a d w h e n I r e a d y o u r – t h a t p a r t o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . A n d M r T h a b e th e i s s t il l c o m in g b a c k h e r e a n d I w il l g iv e h i m a c h a n c e t o – t o t e l l m e w h a t Page 55 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 h e t h in k s . B u t t h a t is t h e i m p r e s s io n I g o t t h a t s o m e b o d y w a s ju s t tr y i n g u n j u s t i fi a b ly to p r o t e c t h i s d e c i s i o n fr o m s c r u t i n y b y a u t h o r i ti e s t h a t a r e a ll o w e d to s c r u t i n is e th a t d e c is io n . M S R O C K M A N : T h e w a y p r a c ti c a ll y w e a l s o d e a l w i th i t C h a i r p e r s o n i s if t h e s e ty p e o f m a t t e r s e m e r g e w h e t h e r i t is d u r i n g a f in a n c ia l y e a r o r d u r i n g a u d i t p e r i o d w e s h a r e w i th t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l – a g j a w e s h a r e w i t h t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l th e a d v is e s is s u e d . W h e t h e r i t w a s in a C F O f o r u m , w h e th e r it w a s o n a n i n d iv i d u a l b a s is . O f t e n w e – o r l e t m e s a y m o s t o f ti m e w e a r e i n a g r e e m e n t w it h t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l . 10 T h e r e is v e r y s e l d o m h u g e d i s c r e p a n c ie s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S R O C K M A N : T h a t n e e d in t e r p r e t a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M S R O C K M A N : I t h i n k o n e o f t h e p o s i t iv e d e v e l o p m e n t s is t h e P u b l ic A u d i t A m e n d m e n t A c t. MS ROCKMAN: Hm. M S R O C K M A N : T h a t w il l e n fo r c e c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MS ROCKMAN: 20 Because it does not help. We have reached that stage. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S R O C K M A N : W h e n y e a r a n d a f te r y e a r t h e s a m e o r s i m il a r f in d i n g s are made. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS ROCKMAN: And we go through the same processes. Page 56 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 CHAIRPERSON: H. M S R O C K M A N : W e is s u e t h e s a m e a d v ic e a n d n o t h i n g c h a n g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is i g n o r e d . MS ROCKMAN: S o I t h i n k t h e P u b l ic A u d i t A m e n d m e n t Ac t a n d th e C o n s e q u e n c e M a n a g e m e n t th a t w il l c o m e t h r o u g h a s t h e u l t i m a te l a s t r e s o r t a l m o s t i f a ll o t h e r m e c h a n is m s i n te r n a l ly i n g o v e r n m e n t h a s f a il e d . I t h i n k t h a t is g o i n g t o m a k e a s u b s t a n t ia l d i ff e r e n c e t o t h e e n v ir o n m e n t i n w h i c h w e w o r k . I m e a n t h e r e a r e b a s ic o th e r r e q u ir e m e n t s i f y o u s i g n o ff a d e v i a ti o n . Yo u a r e s u p p o s e d t o r e g is t e r 10 it a n d s e n d i t t o Tr e a s u r y, s e n d i t to A G , s e n d it h e r e , s e n d i t t h e r e . T h a t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y m e a n … CHAIRPERSON: And that was not done. MS ROCKMAN: Anything happens to it. We can say yes we have n o t e d a n d w e a d v is e y o u t h a t w e a r e n o t in a g r e e m e n t w i th y o u . A n d t h e n w h a t ? S o I t h i n k th e – in r e c e n t t i m e s t h e r e h a v e b e e n s u b s t a n t ia l d e v e l o p m e n ts l ik e w i t h t h e P u b l ic A u d i t A m e n d m e n t A c t th a t w ill s ig n if ic a n tly b r i n g th e s e th i n g s u n d e r c o n tr o l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S R O C K M A N : T h a n ju s t l e a v i n g i t a n d … 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I h o p e t h e y w il l b u t o n e c o n t i n u e s t o b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t a p u b l ic s e r v ic e , g o v e r n m e n t h a s g o t lo ts o f la w s , l o ts o f p o l ic ie s , l o ts o f m e c h a n is m s f o r d e a l in g w i th s i t u a ti o n s b u t th e y d o n o t g e t u s e d . I m e a n I o f t e n s a y y o u k n o w th e w a y p u b l ic s e r v ic e d o e s n o t d e a l w i t h is s u e s o f p o o r p e r f o r m a n c e b y s t a ff a n d s o o n i t i s l ik e p e o p l e w h o w o r k f o r g o v e r n m e n t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w il l b e n o Page 57 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 c o n s e q u e n c e s u n l e s s I a m g u i l ty o f fr a u d b u t e v e n t h e n I c a s e t h e y c a tc h m e w h ic h is u n li k e ly. M S R O C K M A N : E x a c tly. C H A I R P E R S O N : P e o p le j u s t d o n o t – m a n y p e o p l e j u s t d o n o t d o t h e ir jo b t h a t is w h y t h e r e a r e s u c h p r o b l e ms a b o u t s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y. P e o p l e a r e s u p p o s e d t o s u p e r v is e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o t h e ir jo b t h e y d o n o t s u p e r v i s e t h e m . A n d i f t h e y d o n o t d o t h e i r j o b th e r e are no consequences. s e r v ic e d e liv e r i e s . 10 T h a t i s w h y a l o t o f p e o p l e c o m p la i n a b o u t N o t l ik e t h e m e c h a n i s ms a r e n o t t h e r e , t h e y a r e t h e r e b u t t h e y d o n o t g e t i m p l e m e n te d a n d t h o s e w h o a r e s u p p o s e d to implement them and fa il t o i m p le m e n t th e m d o n o t s u ffe r any c o n s e q u e n c e s y e a r in , y e a r o u t . I k n o w I a m j u s t – y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s a y a n y t h in g I a m j u s t – y e s . M s G c a b a s h e . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C h a ir m a n j u s t f o r th e r e c o r d it m i g h t b e u s e fu l w h e n w e g e t t o r e a d in g o u t tr a n s c r i p ts j u s t t o m a k e a n o t e o f t h a t p a r ti c u l a r j u d g m e n t th a t d i d I t h i n k c h a n g e th e a t t i tu d e o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e g o v e r n m e n t a n d t h a t is th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d o th e r s v e r s u s Ta s m i n a s p e l t T- a - s - m- i- n - a P T Y L i m i te d 2 0 1 7 Vo lu m e 2 S A 6 2 2 C C C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t d e c is i o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n I w il l v e r y q u ic k l y j u s t r u n th r o u g h s o m e o f t h e o t h e r ir r e g u la r i ti e s t h a t I a c t u a l ly n o t e d in t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV GCABASHE: Ms Rockman. And if you do not mind me doing – Page 58 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 g o i n g fr o m b a c k t o fr o n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e . ADV GCABASHE: At page 37 for the 2014/2015 year you have non- c o m p li a n c e w i t h S C M P o lic ie s t h e v e r y is s u e y o u d e a l in g w i t h n o w a t R17 708 000.00. A t p a g e 3 6 f o r t h e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 fi n a n c i a l y e a r a g a i n n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i t h S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P r o c e d u r e s t h e r e t h e a m o u n t w a s R 2 1 3 8 6 y o u w il l f in d th a t o n p a g e 3 6 o f th e s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t C h a ir m a n . A n d th e n fo r t h e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 I th in k th a t is a n – M s R o c k m a n I th i n k th a t s h o u l d b e 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 I t h in k th a t – b e c a u s e th e 10 la s t o n e w e d id j u s t n o w w a s 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 . S o I t h i n k t h is s h o u l d a c t u a l ly b e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 C h a ir m a n n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i t h S C M P r o c e d u r e s w a s i n t h e a m o u n t o f R 2 3 3 0 9 0 0 0 .0 0 . S o t h e s e a r e s i g n i fi c a n t a m o u n ts e s p e c i a l ly i f y o u l o o k a t t h e m o v e r t h e y e a r s a n d th e c o m m e n ts y o u make about consequence manager – management and people taking r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r d e c i s i o n s th a t th e y t a k e r e a ll y f e e d s i n to t h e s e fi g u r e s . A n d h o w t o i m p l e m e n t w h a t p e o p l e i n a u th o r it y t e l l u s t o d o c e r t a i n l y f i ts a g a i n i n to t h i s p a r a d ig m . C h a ir m a n I w o u ld lik e to ju s t fi n i s h o ff w i t h j u s t a c o m m e n t . I j u s t w a n t to b r i e f ly g o b a c k t o th e M M – F D C a n d th r e e is s u e s th e r e a g a i n a r i s i n g fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v it a n d t h is 20 ti m e I lo o k e d a t E R 9 9 . 4 a t p a g e 1 - 1 - 4 - 1 t h a t w o u ld b e B u n d l e C , b u t r e a l ly th e - a n d a ls o E R 9 8 p a g e 1 - 1 - 1 - 0 . A g a i n Vo lu m e C a n d t h o s e a r e r e a l ly j u s t c o m m e n t , o n e fr o m t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l . T h e o t h e r r e la t in g t o - fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t r e l a ti n g t o m o n ie s t h a t w e r e p a i d t o th e F D C , M s R o c k m a n a n d i t w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t i n 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 2 0 m il li o n w a s p a i d t o t h e F D C a n d i n p r i o r y e a r s 5 1 .2 m il li o n a c c u m u l a tiv e ly w o u l d h a v e Page 59 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 b e e n p a id t o t h e FD C . T h e s e a r e s ig n i f ic a n t a m o u n ts a n d t h e q u e s ti o n r e a ll y i s w h ic h w e w i ll d is c u s s w i th M r T h a b e t h e - is t h e e x t e n t to w h ic h th e s e ty p e s o f s u ms w e r e a c c o m m o d a t e d i n h is p r o v is io n in g s y s t e m f o r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t b u t t h e o t h e r c o m m e n t I w o u l d l ik e t o m a k e is I lo o k e d a t y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y b u n d l e a n d a t ta g 2 3 A . S o i t is A n n e x u r e 2 3 A - 2 3 A i n t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y - A i n t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y b u n d l e . T h e r e is a c tu a lly a n i n t e r e s ti n g l e t te r fr o m th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a p p o in t e d b y t h e F D C t o r e n d e r s e r v ic e s a t t h e Vr e d e 10 D a ir y F a r m Pr o j e c t a n d i t i s a - a le t t e r fr o m th e a t t o r n e y s w h e r e th e y t h e y l a m e n t t h e f a c t t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 3 o f t h a t l e t te r t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t p r o p e r ly p a id . S o th e y s a y : “ A l t h o u g h t h e r e i s n o o b l i g a t io n t o p r o v i d e r e a s o n s f o r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n … ” O r c a n c e l li n g t h e ir c o n tr a c t w i th F D C . “ … o u r i n s tr u c ti o n s a r e t o r e c o r d th a t t h e m a i n r e a s o n s f o r t e r m in a ti n g th e a g r e e m e n t i s d u e t o y o u r l a c k o f c o o p e r a ti o n ; fa il u r e t o p r o v i d e o u r c li e n t w i t h in s t r u c t i o n s ( in c l u d i n g b u t n o t li m i te d t o 20 y o u r fa il u r e to p r o v i d e in s tr u c ti o n w it h r e s p e c t t o t h e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y s u b m i t t e d t o y o u r s e lv e s a n d d e s p i t e s e v e r a l r e m in d e r s o v e r th e p a s t y e a r ) a n d a b o v e a l l f a i lu r e t o m a k e p a y m e n t o f a m o u n ts d u e t o o u r c li e n t s . A s a r e s u lt o u r c l i e n t h a s b e e n unable to make payment to employees and other Page 60 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 c r e d i t o r s . T h e a g r e e m e n t w il l th e r e fo r e c o m e to a n e n d o n th e 1 3 t h d a y f o l lo w i n g t h e d a te o f d e l iv e r y o f t h is le t t e r. ” S o t h i s is E ’ ts h o a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r a p p o i n te d b y FD C w r i ti n g t o FD C a n d t h e r e a s o n I b r i n g t h i s to y o u r a tt e n ti o n a n d t h e C h a ir m a n ’s a tt e n ti o n is a g a i n i t s p e a k s t o t h e c o m p e t e n c i e s o f t h e F D C . W e r e t h e y r e a l ly t h e b e s t e n t it y t o t a k e o v e r t h e r u n n in g o f t h e Vr e d e D a i r y F a r m ? W h e n o n e , w e h a v e a lr e a d y l e d e v i d e n c e t h a t th e y th e m s e lv e s w e r e i n tr o u b le a n d w e r e b e i n g r e s t r u c t u r e d . 10 W e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h a t a n d a t th e ta il e n d i n 2 0 1 8 t h e r e a r e r e a l d i ff ic u l t ie s t h a t t h e y s e e m n o t t o b e a b l e t o r e s o l v e . I d o n o t k n o w if y o u w a n t t o c o m m e n t o n t h i s . M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t t o s a y a f t e r t h e a c ti o n t a k e n to p l a c e th e fa r m u n d e r a p r e s e r v a ti o n o r d e r A D V G C A B A S H E : ( I n d i s t i n c t) . MS ROCKMAN: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : W h e n t h e - w h e n t h e c u r a to r w a s a p p o i n t e d ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . Th e c o n t in u a ti o n o f E ’ ts h o w a s w i t h t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e c u r a t o r b u t w e w e r e c o n s is t e n t ly a s k e d t o i n t e r v e n e in t h e d e l a y 20 o f p a y m e n ts b e t w e e n F D C a n d A g r i c u l tu r e . S o A g r ic u l t u r e w o u l d d e l a y p a y - p a y m e n ts t o F D C s a y i n g th e y r e q u ir e in f o r m a t io n . F D C w o u l d s a y w e h a v e g i v e n y o u th e in f o r m a t io n . W e w a n t p a y m e n t . In t h e p r o c e s s n o o n e p a i d E ’ ts h o . S o E ’ ts h o e n d e d u p a l m o s t c a r r y i n g t h e c o s t s o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m o n i ts o w n i n t h e h o p e t h a t G o v e r n m e n t w i ll n o w o n e d a y s o r t o u t w h a t e v e r b u r e a u c r a c y p r o b l e m s s t o o d in t h e w a y o f Page 61 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 p r o c e s s in g p a y m e n ts a n d I th i n k a t t h is s t a g e t h e y r e a c h e d t h a t p o i n t t o s a y w e w il l r a th e r w a l k a w a y a n d le a v e y o u t o - t o d e a l w i t h t h e f a r m o n y o u r o w n . W h e th e r i t is F D C o n i ts o w n o r F D C h a n d i n g i t b a c k th e n to A g r ic u l t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V G C A B A S H E : I - I th in k it i s a c t u a ll y c o n v e n i e n t j u s t t o o a g a in j u s t s o l ic i t y o u r v ie w o n e v e n E ’ t s h o i ts e l f . I t s c o m p e t e n c y t o - t o o p e r a t e a n d r u n a d a ir y fa r m b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e i r c o m p e te n c i e s . It i s in t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n , p r o j e c t m a n a g e m e n t a r e a . 10 A g a i n th e r e i s n o p a r t ic u l a r d a ir y o r a g r i c u l tu r a l c o m p e t e n c e t h a t s i ts i n E ’ ts h o . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e to t h a t . M S R O C K M A N : I - I k n o w E ’t s h o a s a p r o j e c t m a n a g e m e n t … ADV GCABASHE: Hm. MS ROCKMAN: I n t h e - i n o t h e r i n d u s tr i e s . Not - not related to a g r ic u lt u r e b u t I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n w h a t c a p a c i ty th e y h a d a t th a t p o i n t in t i m e t o t a k e u p t h e - th e a p p o i n t m e n t . ADV GCABASHE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V G C A B A S H E : Th e n … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Are we almost there? A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV GCABASHE: T h e l a s t o n e r e a l ly is M r D h l a m i n i ’s c o m m e n t . He s u g g e s t e d t o th e C h a ir t h a t Vr e d e t h e D a ir y P r o je c t s h o u ld b e s h u t d o w n b e c a u s e i t h a s b r o u g h t n o t h i n g b u t a n g s t a n d p a i n a n d d is c o r d t o Page 62 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 t h e ir c o m m u n i t y. I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o g iv e th e C h a ir m a n a v i e w on that. MS ROCKMAN: I - I h a v e a l o t o f a p p r e c i a ti o n a n d e m p a t h y f o r t h e f e e li n g s a n d t h e s e n t i m e n t s o f t h e in t e n d e d b e n e fi c i a r ie s w h o h a v e g a i n e d n o th in g fr o m t h is p r o je c t . I d o n o t t h i n k i t i s t o o l a te . I t h i n k t h e p r o j e c t t o s o m e e x te n t i s v ia b l e w i t h th e c o r r e c t s k i ll s a n d k n o w l e d g e a b le p e o p l e . M a y b e n o t a t t h e l e v e l t h a t i t w a s e n v i s a g e d b u t c e r t a in ly t h e r e is b e n e f i t. 10 Th e r e - th e r e is i n h e r e n t b e n e fi t t o in v o lv e b e n e fic i a r i e s i n th e - o n a p r o j e c t o f t h i s n a tu r e . I d o n o t th i n k it s h o u l d s i m p l y b e c l o s e d d o w n c o m p le t e l y. I t h i n k th r e e - th e r e is s ti ll s o m e t h i n g t h a t - th a t c a n b e s a l v a g e d fr o m t h e p r o j e c t a n d s l o w ly b u il t a n d t o b e e x p a n d e d i n t o a b e t t e r - b e t t e r in c o m e o p p o r t u n i ti e s fo r k n o w l e d g e a b le p e o p l e w h o h a v e in t e r e s t i n a g r ic u l t u r e . N o t r a n d o m p e o p le t h a t - t h a t d o e s n o t h a v e a g r ic u l t u r e - a lo v e f o r a g r ic u l t u r e a t h e a r t . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . Th e - t h e l a s t a r e a I w a n t u s t o to u c h o n is e v i d e n c e g iv e n t o t h is C o m m i s s io n b y Mr M o r e m i w h o a t - a t t h e r e l e v a n t ti m e in 2 0 1 2 w a s th e M u n ic ip a l M a n a g e r a t P h u m e l e la L o c a l 20 M u n i c i p a li t y. D o y o u k n o w M r M o r e m i ? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I d o . ADV GCABASHE: I - I - M r M o r e m i o f c o u r s e i n h is s t a te m e n t d e a ls w i t h a te l e p h o n e c a l l h e s a y s y o u m a d e t o h i m a d v is in g h i m t h a t a n I n d ia n d e l e g a t io n w o u ld b e c o m i n g to t h e f a r m . T h e y w e r e r e a ll y n e g o ti a ti n g P h u m e le l a around the lease of land Page 63 of 68 by the Local 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 M u n i c i p a li t y. T h e is s u e h e r e is h e s a y s h e c a l le d y o u . I k n o w y o u d e a l w i th t h is in y o u r s t a te m e n t . Yo u d is p u te t h a t . P l e a s e s p e a k to t h a t i s s u e . MS ROCKMAN: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I h a v e - I h a v e tr ie d t o c l a r i f y m y s e l f . S o I a m n o t e n t ir e ly s u r e i f - i f y o u a r e t a lk i n g a r o u n d t h e s a m e in c i d e n t b u t i n - M r M o r e m i’s i n it i a l e v id e n c e h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t a p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g w a s o r g a n is e d t h r o u g h t h e M a y o r. I th in k i t w a s w i t h M r N a r a y a n a n d a l a w y e r. I n a s u p p le m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t h e t h e n s a y s I t h in k I c a ll e d 10 h i m . W h a t I r e m e m b e r i s r e c e iv in g th e c a ll fr o m h i m s a y i n g t h a t h e is u n d e r p r e s s u r e t o s i g n a c e r ta in a g r e e m e n t a n d h e w a s r e l a t iv e l y n e w in t h e L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t e n v ir o n m e n t a n d I s a i d t o h i m I w o u l d a d v is e d o n o t s ig n a n y t h i n g e s p e c i a lly r e l a ti n g t o m u n i c i p a l l a n d b e c a u s e i t - it is a - it is r e a ll y a c o m p l e x is s u e w i t h o u t g e tt i n g le g a l a d v ic e . Ta lk t o t h e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s . m u n i c i p a li t y. P h u m e l e l a is a v e r y s m a l l I t d o e s n o t h a v e i ts o w n l e g a l - in t e r n a l l e g a l c a p a c i ty. S o i n s t e a d o f g e t ti n g a p r iv a t e l a w f ir m w h o w i ll c h a r g e c o s t s w h o m a y a ls o n o t h a v e t h e n e c e s s a r y e x p e r t is e t o d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o municipal land. 20 I th o u g h t it - i t i s - i t w o u l d b e t h e w i s e r t h i n g t o d o t o s e e k a d v ic e fr o m t h e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s . There was - there were c o n v e r s a ti o n s a n d t h a t is s u b s e q u e n t ly w h a t - w h a t w e d i d . I t h i n k h e a ls o s e n t m e a n e m a i l t h a t I f o r w a r d e d to t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s a n d I a ls o s p o k e to M r Ve n t e r t o s a y c a n w e p le a s e a s s is t P h u m e l e la b e c a u s e t h e y - t h e y a r e i n a d i ff ic u l t p o s i ti o n w it h o u t h a v i n g i n te r n a l Page 64 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 le g a l c a p a c i ty. ADV GCABASHE: A s I r e c a ll h is e v id e n c e th e s e a r e t w o d i ffe r e n t in c i d e n c e . I a m - I a m q u i t e h a p p y w i t h y o u r a c c o u n t o f t h e a s s i s t a n c e y o u tr i e d to g iv e h i m i n r e l a ti o n to t h e l e a s e a n d - a n d t h e a d v ic e y o u g a v e h i m t o s p e a k to t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s . T h a t is c o n s i s te n t w i t h w h a t h e s a i d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n b u t h e a ls o s a id t o t h e C o m m is s i o n th a t th e fi r s t t i m e h e h e a r d a b o u t a n I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n c o m i n g d o w n t o Vr e d e t o ta lk a b o u t t h e l a n d a n d th e fa r m w a s w h e n h e r e c e i v e d a t e le p h o n e c a l l f r o m y o u . H e t h e n r u s h e d a n d 10 m a d e s u r e h e g o t t o th e m e e ti n g o n t i m e … MS ROCKMAN: I have … ADV GCABASHE: And I have understood your version to be that he is t h e o n e w h o c a ll e d y o u . Yo u d id n o t t e ll h i m t h e r e i s a n I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n t h a t is c o m in g t o Vr e d e . M a k e s u r e y o u a r e th e r e to ta lk to them. M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k s C h a ir. I h a v e n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o f m e c a l li n g h i m t o s a y th e r e is a n In d ia n d e l e g a t io n c o m i n g . P h u m e l e la . He is fr o m Vr e d e . The MEC Th e M E C w a s fr o m would have made a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h t h e M a y o r. I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n e a s ie r. I t w o u l d - i t 20 w o u ld n o t r e a ll y m a k e s e n s e f o r th e m t o c o m e v i a m e n o w b a c k t o P h u m e l e la . S o h e - h e m a y h a v e a d i ffe r e n t r e c o l l e c ti o n b u t m y r e c o l l e c ti o n is d e f in i te ly th e p h o n e c a ll th a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m h i m t h a t h e was under pressure. ADV GCABASHE: A n d w h e n y o u s p e a k o f th e M a y o r y o u a r e t a lk i n g Page 65 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 about Mr John Motaung? M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV GCABASHE: L a s t q u e s ti o n I t h i n k C h a ir m a n . Mr T h a b e t h e u l ti m a t e ly e n te r e d i n t o a 9 9 y e a r l e a s e a g r e e m e n t in r e s p e c t o f th a t Vr e d e la n d w i t h Es t in a a n d i t w a s a r e n e w a b l e 9 9 y e a r l e a s e . D i d y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t th is b e f o r e t h a t l e a s e w a s s i g n e d ? M S R O C K M A N : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . ADV GCABASHE: S a m e q u e s ti o n w h e n d i d y o u h e a r a b o u t t h a t 9 9 y e a r l e a s e t h a t h a d b e e n s ig n e d b e t w e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t u n d e r t h e 10 a u t h o r i ty o f t h e Mr T h a b e t h e a n d E s ti n a ? MS ROCKMAN: I - I got to know about that 99 year lease agreement or t h e is s u e s a r o u n d t h e l a n d a t t h e ti m e M r M o r e m i c a ll e d m e in i ti a l ly a n d t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s h a d a d v is e d t o s a y h o w th is t h i n g s h o u l d b e s tr u c t u r e d … ADV GCABASHE: Hm. M S R O C K M A N : B u t w e d id n o t k n o w p r io r to th a t p r o c e s s . W e k n e w in p r i n c i p l e t h e r e is l a n d . P h u m e le la is g o in g t o m a k e a v a i la b l e l a n d b u t t h e 9 9 y e a r l e a s e a g r e e m e n t w a s a s e p a r a te m a t te r a n d - a n d w e d id h a v e c o n c e r n s j u s t i n p r in c i p l e a b o u t t h e is s u e o f 9 9 y e a r le a s e 20 a g r e e m e n ts . At that stage I was aware but I was aware because of P h u m e l e la ’s f in a n c i a l p o s i ti o n t h a t p a r t o f th e l i tt l e r e v e n u e t h a t t h e m u n i c i p a li t y is a b le t o g e t c o m e s fr o m e x i s t in g l e a s e a g r e e m e n ts fr o m m u n i c i p a l l a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e r e n t in g to f a r m e r s . A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t is fi n e . W e w il l t a k e th e r e s t o f t h e m a tt e r w i t h Page 66 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 M r T h a b e t h e . I r e a l ly j u s t w a n t e d t o e s ta b l is h t h e e x t e n t t o w h ic h y o u w o u ld h a v e k n o w n th a t t h i s l e a s e w a s e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h E s ti n a o r w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d h a v e f a c il i ta t e d t h e e n te r i n g o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r 9 9 y e a r l e a s e w i th E s ti n a . Yo u r s h o r t a n s w e r is n o ? MS ROCKMAN: No. A D V G C A B A S H E : I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e a r e a n y o t h e r m a t t e r s th a t y o u w o u ld lik e to b r in g to t h e C h a ir m a n ’s M S R O C K M A N : N o t a t t h is s t a g e C h a ir. ADV GCABASHE: 10 C h a ir m a n t h o s e a r e t h e q u e s t io n s w e h a v e f o r t h i s witness. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Thank you very m u c h Ms R o c k m a n f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g i v e e v id e n c e a n d t o s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t th e E s ti n a Pr o j e c t w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n . I f th e r e i s a n e e d t o a s k y o u to c o m e b a c k th e C o m m is s i o n w i ll a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v in g c o m e t o g iv e e v id e n c e . F o r now you are excused. M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n a n d w e w i ll c o n ti n u e t o c o o p e r a t e a s w e h a v e b e e n d o in g . CHAIRPERSON: 20 t h e d a y. Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . We are going to adjourn for T h e r e w i ll b e n o h e a r in g t o m o r r o w. N e x t w e e k th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s s c h e d u l e d to a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n fo r t h e w h o le w e e k . H e i s n o lo n g e r g o i n g t o a p p e a r n e x t w e e k . H e is l a w y e r s h a v e i n d ic a t e d th a t a r is i n g o u t o f th e j u d g m e n t a ff e c t in g h i m i n t h e P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g H i g h C o u r t h e a n d th e l a w y e r s a r e s u p p o s e d t o d e a l w i t h c e r ta i n m a t t e r s n e x t w e e k . Page 67 of 68 17 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 182 S o t h e h e a r i n g o f h i s e v id e n c e n e x t w e e k h a s b e e n o p p o s e d b u t h e i s s t il l g o in g t o a p p e a r b e f o r e th e C o m m is s i o n fr o m 11 N o v e m b e r t o th e 1 5 t h . H e h a s a g r e e d t o a p p e a r b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n d u r in g t h a t w e e k . S o th a t w e e k s ta n d s . I w il l d e t e r m in e o t h e r d a te s w h e n h e w i ll a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n o t h e r t h a n th e d a t e s o f t h e 11 t h t o 1 5 N o v e m b e r a n d a t t h e r ig h t ti m e t h o s e w i ll b e m a d e k n o w n to t h e p u b lic a s w e ll . A s th in g s s ta n d t h e r e w il l b e n o h e a r i n g n e x t w e e k b e c a u s e o f th is c h a n g e b u t s h o u l d th e C o m m is s io n b e a b le t o m a k e s o m e 10 a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r s o m e w i tn e s s e s to b e c a l le d t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e w e e k t h e p u b lic w il l b e i n f o r m e d b u t a t t h is s ta g e t h e r e w ill b e n o h e a r in g n e x t w e e k b u t t h e r e w il l b e a h e a r i n g t h e w e e k a f t e r. adjourn. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS SINE DIE Page 68 of 68 We