C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 18 JUNE 2019 D AY 11 4 20 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 PROCEEDINGS ON 18 JUNE 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ar e y o u r e a d y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f t o d a y t h e i n t e n t io n i s t h e r e c e iv e e v i d e n c e fr o m t w o w it n e s s e s , M s N h a n t s i a n d M r M a h l a n g u t h e y a r e b o th p r e s e n t. 10 T h e y a r e a ls o l e g a l ly r e p r e s e n t e d s o I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e a m o m e n t if I m a y to a ll o w t h e ir le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s t o p la c e t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let them do so. A D V S A N D A N AT H I G W I N A : Th a n k y o u M r C o m m i s s i o n e r m y n a m e S a n d a n a t h i G w i n a fr o m G w in a A t to r n e y s I a c t fo r M r M a h l a n g u . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr G w i n a . ADV NOSANDISO SO VITI ZWEDALA: Thank you Mr Commissioner my n a m e is A d v o c a te N o s a n d is o S o v i t i Z w e d a l a I a c t o n b e h a l f o f P h u m e z a N h a n ts i . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 20 ADV NOSANDISO SO VITI ZWEDALA: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e a r e a f e w p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts ju s t t o d e a l w it h i n a d v a n c e o f t h e w i tn e s s b e i n g s w o r n in if I m a y. Page 2 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e f ir s t o f t h o s e ju s t r e l a t e t o t h e t i m e fr a m e s w i t h i n w h ic h w e h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e s ta t e m e n t s o f t h e w i tn e s s e s y o u w il l h e a r fr o m t o d a y. Ms N h a n ts i’s s t a t e m e n t w a s r e c e iv e d in e n o u g h ti m e t o fo ll o w t h e R u l e 3 . 3 p r o c e s s e s a n d s o t h o s e h a v e b e e n f o l lo w e d i n r e l a ti o n t o h e r s ta t e m e n t. I n s o fa r a s M r M a h l a n g u i s c o n c e r n e d h is s t a te m e n t w a s r e c e iv e d o n Fr i d a y a f t e r n o o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h a t is ju s t b e f o r e t h e l o n g w e e k e n d . The c o n s e q u e n c e o f th a t is t h a t i t h a s n o t y e t b e e n p o s s i b le . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To f o ll o w a R u l e 3 .3 p r o c e s s i n r e l a ti o n t o M r Mahlangu. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e h a v e a p r o p o s a l i n th a t r e g a r d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e fir s t p o i n t t o n o t e is t h a t a l m o s t a ll o f t h e p e r s o n s w h o a r e i m p l ic a t e d a t a ll o n th e b a s is o f t h e s t a te m e n t o f Mr M a h l a n g u h a v e b e e n p r e v io u s ly i m p li c a t e d i n t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s 20 S t i m p e l a n d M s N h a n t s i s o th e y h a v e r e c e i v e d n o ti f ic a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e l a ti o n t o th e f a c ts o f t h i s e v i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n m a n y r e s p e c ts o v e r l a p w i th t h e r e s p e c ts in w h ic h t h e y a r e r e fe r e n c e d in Mr M a h l a n g u ’s s t a t e m e n t . Page 3 of 266 C h a ir t h e 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s e c o n d p o i n t w e w is h t o m a k e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t is t h a t i t w o u ld b e o u r p r o p o s a l i n r e l a t i o n t o M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t it b e r e c e i v e d to d a y a n d th a t i f i n d u e c o u r s e i t b e c o m e s n e c e s s a r y t o is s u e 3 . 1 0 o r R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 . 6 D ir e c t iv e s a r is i n g fr o m h is e v id e n c e th a t w i ll th e n b e a p r o c e s s t h a t c a n b e f o l l o w e d b y t h e c o m m i s s io n i f th e r e a r e p a r t ic u l a r a s p e c ts o f h i s e v i d e n c e w h i c h r e q u ir e t h e c o m m is s i o n to k n o w w h a t t h e v e r s i o n is o f o t h e r p e r s o n s i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t e v i d e n c e . W h a t I c a n s t a t e o n r e c o r d th o u g h is t h a t t h o s e p e r s o n s w h o h a v e a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d 3 . 3 N o ti c e s i n r e la t io n to M s N h a n t s i a n d M s S t i m p e l ’s 10 e v i d e n c e h a v e n o t a p p li e d t o c r o s s - e x a m in e b a r t h e t w o a p p l ic a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n a l e r te d to C h a ir t h a t i s t h e a p p li c a t io n f r o m M r Zw a n e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M s S ti m p e l a s w e l l a s Ms N h a t s i t o c r o s s e x a m in e M s S t i m p e l b u t w e h a v e a lr e a d y d e a lt w i t h th e p r o c e s s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t a s p e c t. S o C h a ir th a t i s o u r p r o p o s a l f o r t h e w a y f o r w a r d to d a y b u t o f c o u r s e w e s e e k y o u r d ir e c t io n i n th a t r e g a r d . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll o b v io u s ly fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d th e r e is n o p r o b le m a r i s i n g f r o m M s N h a n t s i ’s o n e b u t t h e r e a r e c o n c e r n s i n r e g a r d t o M r M a h l a n g u . W h e n I r e a d M r M a h l a n g u ’s s ta t e m e n t – w e l l I d i d n o t h a v e i n f o r m a ti o n a s t o w h e th e r th e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s h a d b e e n s e n t o u t 20 o r n o t a n d w h e n t h e y h a d b e e n s e n t o u t b u t I h a d a c o n c e r n a s to w h e t h e r s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t a p p e a r to b e i n d is p u t e b e tw e e n h i m s e l f a n d M s S t i m p e l w h e th e r th e y m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n r e s o lv e d i f t h e r e h a d b e e n ti m e f o r M s S t i m p e l t o l o o k a t M s M a h la n g u ’s s t a te m e n t a n d a p p ly h e r m i n d to c e r t a i n is s u e s b e c a u s e o f th e m m a y b e – m i g h t b e b a s e d o n s o m e m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g j u s t s o t h a t w e k n o w w h a t is r e a ll y Page 4 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s e r io u s ly c o n te s te d b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f t h e m . I h a d th a t c o n c e r n s o o n e th e r e i s t h a t c o n c e r n a n d tw o w h il e t h e r e m a y b e – i t m i g h t b e a n i m p o r t a n t f a c t o r in t e r ms o f w h a t is to b e d o n e t h a t th e p e r s o n s th a t h e m a y b e i m p l ic a ti n g a r e p e r s o n s w h o h a v e b e e n i m p l ic a t e d b y o th e r w i t n e s s e s a n d t h e y h a v e n o t a p p li e d f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e . We h a v e t o c o n – w e h a v e t o a l w a y s k e e p o u r e y e s o n c o n s is te n c y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: L a s t w e e k w h e n M r N x a s a n a w a s t e s ti fy in g c o u n s e l f o r M s J i b a a p p r o a c h e d t h e c o u r t a n d e x p r e s s e d M s J i b a ’s c o n c e r n t h a t 10 s h e h a d n o t b e e n s e r v e d w it h a 3 . 3 . N o ti c e . A n d t h e r e s u l t w a s t h a t I d e c i d e d t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w o u l d i m p lic a te M s J i b a a n d o t h e r s in m a t t e r s t h a t w e r e n o t a lr e a d y i n th e p u b l ic d o m a i n i n th e s e n s e o f b e i n g i n a ffi d a v it s in m a t te r s t h a t a r e p e n d in g i n c o u r t o r t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n d e c i d e d i n c o u r t o r i n ju d g m e n ts s h o u l d n o t b e c o v e r e d u n t il a t a l a te r s t a g e . N o w in d o in g s o a v e r y i m p o r ta n t f a c t o r in my m i n d w a s t h e f a c t t h a t M s J ib a h a s a p p a r e n tly n o t b e e n n o ti fi e d a t a l l o f n o t n o ti f ie d in t i m e e v e n o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a w i tn e s s w h o w a s g o i n g to b e g iv i n g e v id e n c e a n d i m p li c a t in g h e r. A n d t h a t t h in k i n g w a s in t h is c o n te x t t h a t 20 1 . T h e R u l e 3 .3 . p r o c e s s c o n t e m p l a t e s t h a t i f a p e r s o n is g o in g to b e i m p li c a t e d o r i s i m p l ic a te d in a s t a t e m e n t o r i n e v i d e n c e t o b e g iv e n b y a w i t n e s s t h a t p e r s o n m u s t b e g iv e n a R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e t h a t t e l l h i m o r h e r o f t h a t f a c t o r p o s s i b i li ty a n d i t g iv e s t h a t p e r s o n – i t a ls o t e l ls t h a t p e r s o n t h a t h e o r s h e m a y a t t e n d t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o n t h e d a t e w h e n t h a t w i t n e s s g iv e e v i d e n c e o r h a v e Page 5 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o u n s e l a n d th a t h e o r s h e m a y a p p ly fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e t h e w i tn e s s o r t o l e a d e v i d e n c e h i ms e lf o r h e r s e l f o r t o c a ll witnesses. N o w th e r e is a p r o v is i o n i n t h e – in th a t R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e w h i c h s a y s : I f a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n o r a p e r s o n w h o h a s b e e n s e r v e d w i th a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e b e li e v e s th a t th e ti m e t h a t h a s b e e n a ff o r d e d h i m o r h e r b e f o r e the witness comes before the commi ssion to g iv e e v id e n c e is in a d e q u a t e th e n th e y m a y a p p l y t o th e c o m m is s i o n f o r s u c h r e li e f a s m a y b e n e c e s s a r y t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e y a r e n o t s e r i o u s ly p r e ju d i c e d . 10 N o w t h e w a y t h a t t h i n g s h a v e h a p p e n e d s in c e A u g u s t h a s b e e n s u c h t h a t n o w i tn e s s h a s b e e n c r o s s - e x a m i n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y t h a t t h e y g iv e e v i d e n c e s o a r r a n g e m e n ts h a v e t o b e m a d e a ll th e ti m e a n d p e r s o n s w h o n e e d t o a p p l y fo r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e h a v e h a d a m p l e ti m e – h a v e b e e n g iv e n a m p l e ti m e t o m a k e th a t a p p lic a ti o n a n d s o o n . B u t w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d is t h a t s o m e t i m e s t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s h a v e b e e n s e r v e d o n i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s in c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h o s e p e r s o n s w il l n o t g e t 1 4 d a y s w i th i n w h i c h to a p p ly a n d – b u t w h e r e n e v e r t h e l e s s t h e y r e c e i v e d t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s a n d th e r e f o r e t h e y k n o w t h a t th e y w i ll b e i m p l ic a te d b y s o m e b o d y t h e y k n o w w h e n t h a t 20 p e r s o n w i ll b e g iv in g e v i d e n c e . O n e o f t h e f a c to r s t h a t h a s w e i g h e d w i t h m e is t h a t a t l e a s t t h e y w e r e a w a r e t h a t s o m e b o d y is g o i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d i m p li c a t in g th e m . Th e y w e r e a w a r e i n a d v a n c e . T h e y c o u l d c o m e a n d s i t a n d h e a r a n d l is te n . T h e y c o u ld b r i e f c o u n s e l , in s t r u c t i n g a t t o r n e y t o c o m e a n d s i t a n d l is t e n . A t l e a s t th e y w i ll n o t b e – t h e y w ill n o t h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e th e y m a y b e d r iv in g a n d f in d t h a t Page 6 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 o n t h e n e w, o n r a d i o t h e y h e a r s o m e b o d y i s i m p lic a ti n g t h e m o f s o m e t h i n g a n d t h e y h a d n o id e a w h a ts o e v e r. So part of the concern la s t w e e k w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e m a t t e r r e l a t i n g t o M s J i b a w a s t h a t a s I u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s it i o n s h e h a d n o t e v e n b e e n a l e r te d th a t s o m e b o d y w i ll b e g iv i n g e v id e n c e . N o w c o m in g th e n to M r M a h la n g u ’s s i t u a t io n i t s e e m s t h a t e x c e p t f o r o n e is s u e h i s s i t u a t io n m a y b e i n th e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s t h a t o f M s J i b a . T h e o n e i s s u e w h i c h m i g h t d is t in g u is h th e t w o i s t h a t a s y o u s a y t h e p e r s o n s t h a t Mr M a h l a n g u i m p li c a t e s a r e p e r s o n s w h o h a v e b e e n i m p l ic a te d b y o t h e r w i t n e s s e s a n d t h e r e f o r e 10 h a v e b e e n – o r a r e a w a r e o f a ll e g a t io n s a g a i n s t th e m h a v i n g b e e n made. S o t h a t is t h a t. B u t I s t il l r e m a i n c o n c e r n e d if t h e y a r e n o t a w a r e e v e n b y w a y o f a p h o n e c a ll t h a t s o m e b o d y w i ll b e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e a n d m a y b e s o m e b o d y d i ff e r e n t m a y b e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e . S o I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th a t a n d th e o th e r – t h e o th e r m a t t e r t h a t I r a i s e d n a m e ly t o w h a t e x te n t w e s h o u l d h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e o th e r p e r s o n s w h o h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e o r is i t o n e – o h i t is t w o I t h in k , w h o h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e i f t h e y g e t t o s e e M r M a h l a n g u ’s s ta t e m e n t a n d m a y b e s o m e b o d y i n th e l e g a l t e a m ta k e s t h e m t h r o u g h to s e e i n r e g a r d t o w h i c h is s u e s m a y b e t h e r e c o u l d b e c o m m o n g r o u n d . 20 Yo u k n o w s o m e t i m e s y o u s a y o n e th in g a n d t h e n s o m e b o d y b r i n g s i n a d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c t iv e a n d y o u s e e i t fr o m a d i ff e r e n t a n g l e y o u s a y o k a y n o w I u n d e r s t a n d th a t a n d t h e n – s o t h a t w e c a n r e m a in w i t h o n l y t h o s e th a t a r e s e r i o u s ly c o n t e s t e d . S o th o s e a r e m y c o n c e r n s . I do not know w h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e to s a y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r i f I m a y a d d r e s s e a c h o f th e i s s u e s t h a t Page 7 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 you have raised? I f w e c a n s t a r t w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n o f th e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t i fi e d w h o m a y b e r e f e r e n c e d i n t h e Mr M a h l a n g u ’s s t a te m e n ts . C h a ir it is u n fo r t u n a t e th a t t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s o n l y r e c e i v e d l a s t Fr i d a y. T h e r e h a d b e e n d e ta il e d e n g a g e m e n ts w i th Mr M a h l a n g u i n a d v a n c e o f t h a t a n d t h is p o i n t i n p a r tic u la r w a s p u t t o M r M a h l a n g u b e c a u s e t h e d i s a d v a n t a g e i f w e g o t i t l a t e r th a n t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s S t i m p e l a n d M r Va n D e r M e r w e w a s p r e c is e l y t h a t w e w o u l d n o t b e a b l e to p u t c o n tr a r y v e r s i o n to h i m . S o t h a t – th a t c e r ta i n ly w a s made known. 10 I n s o f a r a s h o w t o m a n a g e i t h o w e v e r C h a ir i t is o u r s u b m is s io n t h a t c e r t a in ly in r e l a t i o n t o M s S t i m p e l I w il l c h e c k a g a in b e f o r e Mr M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e b u t I d o n o t r e g a r d a n y t h i n g t h a t h e s a y s a b o u t th e p r o c e s s e s in S A A r e q u ir i n g h e r r e s p o n s e . M r … C H A I R P E R S O N : A t le a s t I s e e s h e i s h e r e I t h in k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d s h e is s o t h a t – s h e c a n a ls o in d i c a t e t o us in due course. CHAIRPERSON: Ja at least she is attending. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e is a t t e n d in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Va n D e r M e r w e i s d i ff e r e n t. Th e r e is a – t h e r e is a c o n tr a r y v e r s i o n i n r e l a ti o n t o s o m e a s p e c t s o f w h a t M r Va n Der Merwe s a id correspondence. and there are a ls o one or tw o p ie c e s of Yo u w i ll r e c a l l i n t h e c o u r s e o f M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s t e s ti m o n y w e a s k e d h i m i f h e c o u l d g o b a c k a n d c h e c k h is r e c o r d s f o r Page 8 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 correspondence. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e u n d e r t o o k to d o s o b u t w e h a v e n o w f o u n d another source. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f s o m e o f th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s c e r t a i n ly o u r s u g g e s t io n i n th a t r e g a r d th a t a ft e r M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v id e n c e w e e n g a g e a g a i n w i th M r Va n D e r M e r w e . 10 W e p u t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts t o h i m a n d w e a s k h i m f o r a n a c c o u n t. A t t h a t s t a g e o n a ffi d a v it s o w e c a n a s s e s s i t a n d i f n e c e s s a r y t h e r e c a n b e a recall of witnesses. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t c e r t a in ly th a t a s p e c t CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e f a c t th a t M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e i s c o m in g la t e r th a n th o s e t w o w it n e s s e s i t is o u r s u b m is s io n t h a t t h e r e is a process. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : By w h ic h th a t c a n b e d e a l t w i th . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I m a y t h e n g o t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f M r M a g l a n g u ’s e v id e n c e t o d a y ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . L e t m e – l e t m e ju s t m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d w i t h r e g a r d t o M r Va n D e r M e r w e ? Page 9 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a h l a n g u ’s s t a te m e n t y o u s a y d o e s i m p li c a t e h i m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y i m p li c a t e h i m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t g i v e s a v e r s i o n C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t l e a s t in r e la t io n to c e r t a i n i n t e r a c ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e t w e e n G r is s a g A G a n d B N P. 10 CHAIRPERSON: YEs. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h i c h w e r e n o t a b l e t o b e p u t t o M r Va n D e r Merwe. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h i s a c c o u n t o f w h e t h e r in d e e d c e r ta i n m e e ti n g s t h a t a r e r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e d i d o r d i d n o t t a k e place. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t h a s – t h a t h a s n o t b e e n p u t to M r Va n D e r M e r w e b e c a u s e t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n c a m e t o u s o n F r i d a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e w o u l d – i t is n o t s o m u c h i m p li c a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s it is a r e s p o n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s r e s p o n s e a n d g e tt i n g t o t h e t r u t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e f a c ts Page 10 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w o u l d n e e d h is a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r w h a t M r M a h l a n g u tr a v e r s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i t i s a r e s p o n s e t o w h a t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h a t M r Va n D e r M e r w e m a y h a v e s a i d . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u r e c e i v e d M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s s t a te m e n t i n a d v a n c e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f h i m p r o v i d i n g h i s s t a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e w a s a b l e to r e s p o n d to i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr o v id e fu r t h e r i n s ig h t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o c u m e n t s w h ic h w e r e n o t p r e v i o u s ly i n t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s p o s s e s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h a t c a m e in li t e r a l ly C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 11 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h il e Mr Va n D e r M e r w e w a s g iv in g th e e v i d e n c e o n Fr i d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o o u r s u g g e s t i o n t h e r e is t h a t w e w il l n e e d t o a s k f o r Mr Va n D e r M e r w e ’s r e s p o n s e CHAIRPERSON: Ja, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To th e e x t e n t th a t th a t a p p l ie s t o M s S ti m p e l s i m il a r ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then we can make an assessment about w h e t h e r f u r t h e r o r a l t e s ti m o n y is r e q u ir e d a t a ll . CHAIRPERSON: S o w h a t i s y o u r s u b m is s io n o n w h e t h e r in r e g a r d t o t h a t M r M a h la n g u – M r M a g la n g u s h o u l d c o v e r th a t to d a y o r s h o u l d le a v e i t fo r l a t e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e m a y le a v e i t f o r l a t e r. CHAIRPERSON: What – because he would come back – he may have t o c o m e b a c k a n y w a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . T h a t is c e r t a in ly s o m e t h in g t h a t w e can do. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e l a ti o n t o th a t a s p e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c o u l d c a r v e o u t – i t is a fa ir l y s m a ll r e s p e c t in w h ic h h e r e fe r e n c e s M r Va n D e r M e r w e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e – y o u h a v e a b e t t e r id e a o f h o w s e r i o u s a n Page 12 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 i m p l ic a t i o n it is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i t i s a p o i n t o f d is c r e p a n c y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In r e l a ti o n t o c e r t a i n f a c t s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t in t h e s c h e m e o f M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e t h e y a r e fa ir l y m in o e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . O k a y. W e l l i n r e l a ti o n t o M r M a h l a n g u – Mr Va n D e r M e r w e 10 1 . Yo u s a y M r M a h l a n g u ’s s ta t e m e n t is a r e s p o n s e t o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s s t a t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is 1 . 2. Yo u s a y it is r e a ll y a m i n o r k i n d o f d is c r e p a n c y i n th e ir v e r s io n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I r e a d h is s t a te m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d – a n d i s i t b u t o n e is s u e ? 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e o r t w o is s u e s ? O n e o r tw o i s s u e s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It i s – o n ly o n e o r t w o a n d i t is p r i n c ip a l ly about engagements between Grissag C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d B N P C a p i t a l . Page 13 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Ys. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o t h o s e e n g a g e m e n ts w e r e w it h . Yo u w i ll r e c a l l p a r t o f M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e w a s h e c o u l d n o t r e c a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o h e w a s s p e a k in g to a n y p o in t i n ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t M r M a h l a n g u h a s p r o v i d e d u s w i t h is some correspondence. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e t w e e n M r M g a d i . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r Va n D e r M e r w e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M g a d i is s o m e b o d y w h o w il l f e a t u r e in t h e e v i d e n c e t o d a y b o th o f Ms N h a n ts i a n d Mr M a h l a n g u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is o f t h a t o r d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i t is a f e w d e t a i ls a b o u t m e e ti n g s th a t were going to be arranged. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A f t e r t h e d a t e o f t h e 8 t h J u n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s Page 14 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e r e a lly s t o p p e d o n t h e 8 t h J u n e . T h a t i s w h e n h e a tt e n d e d a t S A A a n d t h a t t e r m s h e e t w a s s ig n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e te n d s t o i n d ic a te t h a t th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n la t e r i n t e r a c ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o t h a t w o u l d n e e d t o b e p r o b e d w i t h M r Va n D e r M e r w e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s t h e g is t o f i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t th e i m p li c a t io n m ig h t b e n o t h i n g m o r e th a n t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n t v e r s i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e m ig h t n o t h a v e been true. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s o r a c c u r a te in s o m e r e s p e c ts . CHAIRPERSON: Not – or accurate. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th in g m o r e th a n th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Not as I read the statement. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f M r M a h l a n g u t h i n k s t h a t t h e r e is m o r e CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e i m p l ic a t i o n h e c a n te ll u s . Page 15 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t c e r t a i n l y a s I h a v e r e a d it t h o s e a r e t h e is s u e s o f d is c r e p a n c y in v e r s i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e l l w i th r e g a r d t o M r S t i m p e l I th i n k th a t c a n b e s o r t e d o u t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e s h e is h e r e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i t c a n . T h e p r in c i p l e is s u e th e r e a g a i n a s I r e a d th e s t a t e m e n t r e l a t e s t o t h e q u e s t i o n o f th e s u c c e s s f e e t h a t w a s g o i n g to b e m a d e p a i d t o b e B N P h a d t h e y s u c c e s s f u l ly s o u r c e d t h e f u n d s . Th a t is a n is s u e t h a t w a s e x te n s i v e l y d e a l t w i th b y Mr S t i m p e l b e c a u s e M s N h a n ts i h a s a c o n tr a r y v e r s io n o n t h a t. A n d s o t h a t i s s u e h a s b e e n d e b a t e d b u t a g a in M s S t i m p e l is h e r e a n d i f t h e r e is n e e d fo r r e s p o n s e w e c a n – w e c a n c e r t a in ly p u r s u e th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h is r e g a r d t o M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v id e n c e i n r e la t io n t o M s S t i m p e l I t h i n k I c a n a l lo w th a t b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y Ms S t i m p e l i s a w a r e th a t Mr M a h la n g u is g iv i n g e v id e n c e to d a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is h e r e . S o th a t c o n c e r n w h ic h I t a lk e d a b o u t is t a k e n c a r e o f . A n d w i t h r e g a r d t o M r Va n D e r M e r w e y o u s a y t h i s i s a r e s p o n s e t o h is o w n s t a te m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t – a n d th a t is a ls o a f a c t o r. Page 16 of 266 But let us see 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 h o w w e d e a l w i t h it . M a y b e th a t o n y o u r f e e t y o u m i g h t ju s t h a v e t o e x e r c is e y o u r m i n d a b o u t c o v e r i t o r n o t c o v e r in g i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : U n t il h e c o m e s b a c k b u t t h e r e i s s o m e t h in g to b e s a id if it is a r e s p o n s e . I t i s j u s t a d i ff e r e n t v e r s io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: J a , ja s o – s o l e t u s p r o c e e d a n d y o u c a n e x e r c is e y o u r d is c r e t i o n a s t o w h e t h e r to – y o u w a n t t o a s k if I – if i n th e process … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e s h o u l d e x c l u d e i t I w il l l e t y o u k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t th e f a c t t h a t it i s a r e s p o n s e t o M r Va n D e r M e r w e ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d i t i s a m i n o r is s u e a t le a s t a s y o u s e e i t is a n i m p o r t a n t f a c t o r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m i n d e b te d t o y o u C h a ir f o r t h a t d ir e c t io n I w i ll b e a r it m i n d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 M a h l a n g u ’s e v id e n c e If I c a n t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n o f M r and i m p lic a t e d persons p o te n ti a l and the a p p r o a c h t h e r e . C h a ir a s I h a v e i t t h e r e a r e r e a l ly t h r e e r e a s o n s w h y R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s a r e g iv e n . T h e y a r e g iv e n to a l e r t w i t n e s s e s t h a t t h e y a r e to b e i m p l ic a te d – a t l e a s t p e r s o n s t h a t t h e y a r e t o b e i m p li c a t e d i n evidence. I t is t o g iv e t h e m a n o p p o r t u n i ty to a t te n d a n d t o m a k e a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a m in e . T h o s e a r e r e a ll y a s I s e e i t th e th r e e Page 17 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r i n c i p l e r e a s o n s . I w o u l d l ik e t o a d d r e s s e a c h o f t h e m a n d s u b m i t t o y o u C h a i r th a t th o s e a r e n o t c o m p r o m i s e d i f w e w e r e t o p r o c e e d w i t h M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e t o d a y. T h e r e a s o n f o r t h a t i s t h e fo ll o w i n g : T h e P e o p l e w h o a r e p r i n c i p a l ly i m p lic a t e d in Mr M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e h a v e p r e v io u s ly r e c e i v e d R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s . T h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t is t h a t t h e y k n e w e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e m a t t e r s c o m m e n c e d o n T h u r s d a y la s t w e e k t h r o u g h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s S t i m p e l a n d th e n M r Va n D e r M e r w e . In th e c o u r s e o f t h a t h e a r i n g la s t w e e k C h a ir th e r e w a s m e n t io n m a d e o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s i o n s t h a t M r M a h la n g u w o u l d 10 b e t e s t i fy i n g t o d a y t h a t w a s s p e c if ic a l ly r e f e r e n c e I t h in k i n t h e c o u r s e o f Fr i d a y ’s h e a r i n g . S o a n y o n e w h o h a d b e e n a le r t e d t o M s S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e w o u l d b e a w a r e a n d w e r e w a t c h i n g M s S ti m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e w o u ld b e a w a r e th a t Mr M a h la n g u w a s t e s t if y i n g t o d a y. Of course at t h e p o in t t h a t t h a t s ta t e m e n t w a s m a d e i t w a s b e c a u s e M r M a h l a n g u had been summonsed. W e s ti ll w e r e n o t in r e c e i p t o f th e s ta t e m e n t. B u t t h a t f a c t h a s b e e n p u b l ic l y m a d e k n o w n . C h a ir t h e s e c o n d a s p e c t is i n t h e w o r l d o f t e c h n o l o g ic a l a d v a n c e t h e r i g h t to b e p r e s e n t i n th is r o o m is n o t a s c r it ic a l a s i t m ig h t o t h e r w is e b e . C h a i r a s y o u w e l l k n o w t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a r e v id e o - ta p e d , t h e y a r e a v a i l a b le o n li n e . T h e 20 tr a n s c r ip t g o e s u p t h e n e x t d a y a n d s o t h e a b i li ty t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t is g iv e n is n o t a s c r i t ic a ll y n e e d e d t o b e c o m p li e d w it h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : By p r e s e n c e in t h e r o o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir i n s o fa r a s … . A n d C h a ir i n s o fa r a s … Page 18 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k – I th in k t h e – t h e – o n c e t h e p e r s o n is a w a r e t h a t s o m e b o d y w il l b e g iv in g e v id e n c e o n a c e r t a i n d a te i m p li c a t in g t h e m I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e m o s t c r i tic a l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e e v e n i f y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b le to a t t e n d – i f y o u a r e a w a r e y o u m ig h t b e a b le to h a v e a c c e s s t o th e p r o c e e d i n g s in o th e r w a y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: 10 But of course as one says that one has to bear in m i n d t h a t t h e r e a r e s ti ll l o ts o f p e o p le w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e a c c e s s to … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : To a lo t o f t h i n g s th a t o t h e r s h a v e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A g r e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t i n a ll p r o b a b il it y t h e p e o p l e w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t h e r e d o n o t fa ll in t o th a t c a te g o r y. B u t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e j u s t h a v e t o k e e p t h a t y o u k n o w in th e b a c k o f o u r minds. Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I m a y m a k e a p r o p o s a l in t h a t r e g a r d ? 20 B e c a u s e y o u r e f e r e n c e p a r ti c u la r ly t h e p o s s i b i li ty o f a t le a s t a t e l e p h o n e c a ll t o a l e r t p e r s o n s . M r M a h l a n g u is n o t d u e t o t e s ti f y fir s t t o d a y. M s N h a n ts i w il l a n d s h e w i ll t a k e s o m e p o r t io n o f t h e d a y. In t h a t r e g a r d m y s u g g e s ti o n is t h a t w e t a k e s t e p s d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h is m o r n i n g t o n o ti fy th e p e r s o n s . T h e r e a r e p e r s o n s f o r w h o m th e c o m m i s s io n h a s g o t c o n ta c t d e t a i ls b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e b e e n p r e v i o u s Page 19 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e c ip i e n ts o f e a r l ie r R u l e 3 .3 N o tic e s a n d w i t h y o u r l e a v e I s u g g e s t w e m a k e t h o s e a t te m p t s a n d I c a n r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u a t a n a p p r o p r i a t e ti m e a s t o t h e s u c c e s s o f th a t n o ti f ic a t i o n . B u t m y p r i n c i p l e s u b m i s s i o n is th a t th o s e r e c ip i e n ts o f p r e v i o u s 3 .3 N o ti c e s k n o w t h a t t h is e v i d e n c e w a s s t a r ti n g l a s t w e e k . K n o w th a t M r M a h la n g u w a s c o m i n g . T h e o n ly q u e s t io n w o u l d b e w e ll t h e y e v e n k n o w t h a t h e w a s c o m i n g t o d a y s o t h a t – t h e y w o u l d b e a w a r e o f t h a t f a c t a s w e ll C h a ir. B u t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y w e c a n m a k e e n d e a v o u r s to m a k e t h a t c o n ta c t in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m o r n i n g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t – t h a t is fi n e . I th in k f o r w h a t i t is w o r th le t t h o s e e n d e a v o u r s b e m a d e b u t fr o m w h a t y o u s a y i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t i t is a m a t t e r w h e r e w e c a n p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m n o t c u t ti n g y o u s h o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o c e r t a i n ly. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h a n k y o u . C h a ir th e n j u s t i n r e l a ti o n t o o n e o r t w o o t h e r p r o c e d u r a l m a t t e r s . Th e r e a r e a fe w d o c u m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n h a n d e d u p t h i s m o r n in g t o m e b y M s N h a n ts i i n r e l a t i o n t o her te s ti m o n y and one a d d i ti o n a l document in relation to Mr M a h l a n g u ’s . I b e g l e a v e a t th e a p p r o p r i a t e p o i n t t o h a n d t h o s e u p to Page 20 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 y o u C h a ir. T h e r e i s a l s o a q u e s t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o d o c u m e n t s t h a t Mr M a h l a n g u r e c e i v e d o v e r t h e w e e k e n d fr o m t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h ic h w e r e r e l e v a n t a f t e r w e h a d r e c e iv e d t h e s ta t e m e n t . T h e r e is a n a s p e c t t h e r e I h a v e d e a lt w it h h i s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e a n d h i m a b o u t t h a t t h is m o r n in g a n d I w ill p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d b u t I p r o p o s e t o d o t h a t j u s t in a d v a n c e o f Mr M a h la n g u ’s e v id e n c e a n d n o t a t th e o u t s e t n o w i f t h a t is c o n v e n i e n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. N o t h a t is fi n e . Th e r e is a p e r s o n th a t M r M a h l a n g u m e n t i o n s fr e q u e n tly i n h is s ta t e m e n t t h a t a p p e a r s t o h a v e 10 p l a y e d q u i t e a n i m p o r t a n t r o le in h i s c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e g a r d to B N P a n d S A A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h a t o n e is a w a r e t h a t M r M a h l a n g u w il l b e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e ? They were working on the same s id e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : D u r i n g th o s e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 C h a ir h e r e c e i v e d n o t ic e o f M s N h a n ts i ’s evidence. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a s r e c e i v e d t h e f u l l s ta t e m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f M s N h a n ts i ’s e v id e n c e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 21 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e fe a t u r e s p r o m i n e n tl y i n h e r e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e w o u ld a l s o h a d h e b e e n – h e w a s a l s o i m p l ic a t e d i n M s S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o – n o I – I s ta n d c o r r e c te d th e r e . He w a s n o t i m p li c a t e d i n M s S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e b u t h e d i d r e c e iv e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e d i d r e c e i v e d n o t i fic a ti o n o f M s N h a n ts i ’s 10 evidence … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t h e w a s ta k i n g n o te o f the proceedings last week. He would have been a le r t e d to M r M a h l a n g u ’s a p p e a r a n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t in s o f a r a s th o s e c a ll s w il l b e m a d e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : My s u g g e s t i o n is t h a t w e s ta r t w i t h th e m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is m o r n in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . O f c o u r s e M r M a h l a n g u ’s s t a t e m e n t s u g g e s t s t h a t h e w a s t h e o n e w h o w r o te le t te r s a n d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d – p l a y e d a c e r t a i n r o le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . Page 22 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Th e r e m a y b e – t h e r e m a y b e r o o m f o r i n te r p r e t a ti o n t h a t M r M a h la n g u is n o t n e c e s s a r ily s a y i n g h e w a s i n v o l v e d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : In a n y th in g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Wr o n g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e is s a y in g t o t h e e x t e n t th a t h e m a y h a v e b e e n in v o lv e d in a n y th i n g w r o n g M r M a h l a n g u w a s u n a w a r e … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Of it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h in k m a y b e h e m u s t b e o n e o f th o s e w h o m u s t b e n o t i fi e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w e w il l t a k e th o s e s t e p s a n d I w il l r e p o r t back in due course. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay thank you. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y ju s t t a k e a m o m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s N h a n t s i to b e s w o r n in . Page 23 of 266 C h a ir i f I m a y t h e n a s k f o r 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ff ir m a t io n . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e f o r t h e r e c o r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: P h u m e z a N h a n t s i . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n s . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l g iv e w i ll b e th e t r u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e lp m e G o d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o h e lp m e G o d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s ) REGISTRAR: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 M s N h a n ts i just in r e l a ti o n to some h o u s e k e e p i n g m a t t e r s y o u h a v e b e f o r e y o u a f il e w h ic h c o n ta i n s y o u r s t a te m e n t , a n n e x u r e s and a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n t s p r e v i o u s ly b e e n p r o v id e d w i th . which you have C h a ir f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d m a y I r e q u e s t t h a t t h i s b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 2 a s is r e fe r e n c e d o n t h e s p i n e o f t h e fi l e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in in g Ms N h a n ts i ’s s ta t e m e n t Page 24 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 2 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e w i ll a l s o b e c a u s e i n t h e c o u r s e o f M s N h a n t s i ’s e v id e n c e to r e f e r to o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts o f th e s t a te m e n t o f Mr M a h l a n g u a n d s o f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s i f w e c o u l d j u s t e n t e r t h a t i n a s E X H I B I T D D 4 a s is r e f e r e n c e d o n t h e s p i n e . CHAIRPERSON: The lever arch f il e containing M r P h o li s a n i D a n i e l M a h l a n g u i s t o b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d M s N h a n t s i ju s t t o o r i e n ta t e y o u – y o u h a v e a b o x o f fi le s n e x t to y o u . T h o s e c o n t a in th e 10 b u n d l e s o f w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n ts a n d e v i d e n c e o t h e r t h a n y o u r o w n . At a p p r o p r i a t e p o i n ts I w il l a s k y o u t o – t o t a k e t h e m o u t a n d I m a y r e fe r you to aspects of them. J u s t t o o r i e n t a t e y o u . M s S t i m p e l ’s s t a t e m e n t i s r e p r e s e n te d o v e r t h r e e fi l e s . T h e y a r e c a l le d D D 1 A , B a n d C . S o I w il l m a k e t h a t r e fe r e n c e to y o u t o k n o w w h ic h fi le t o l o o k a t – a t a n y p o in t a n d th e n y o u h a v e j u s t b e e n a le r t e d to t h e f a c t t h a t M r M a h l a n g u ’s e x h i b i t w il l b e DD4. I f y o u h a v e a n y c o n c e r n s l e t u s k n o w i n th e c o u r s e o f th e evidence. M s N h a n t s i i f w e c o u l d t h e n g o t o y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h is i n 20 E X H I B I T D D 2 a n d i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 1 o f t h a t s ta t e m e n t – a t l e a s t t h a t b u n d l e . Th a t i s t h e f ir s t p a g e o f t h e s t a te m e n t a s I h a v e i t a n d t h e n if y o u tu r n o n p a g e 2 3 th a t is t h e l a s t p a g e a s I h a v e i t . C a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t th a t i s y o u r s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r i n g o n t h a t p a g e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I c a n c o n fi r m th a t i t is m y s ig n a tu r e . Page 25 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i I k n o w t h a t y o u w a n t t o m a k e o n e c o r r e c t io n in r e la t io n t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t w h ic h I w i ll a l lo w y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty n o w t o d o . I th e n w i ll a s k y o u a f t e r t h a t c o r r e c t io n is m a d e w h e t h e r y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o r r e c tn e s s o f th e f a c ts a s t h e y a r e s e t o u t i n t h e s t a te m e n t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : s o i f w e c o u l d b e g i n w i th t h e c o r r e c t i o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e c o r r e c t i o n w h ic h I w ill a p o l o g is e is t h e s p e l li n g o f M s S t i m p e l . I t is s u p p o s e d t o 10 b e M - P - E- L i n s t e a d o f S t ip e l. I a p o l o g i s e f o r th a t . I d o h a v e a s e c o n d c o r r e c t io n C h a i r b u t I a m tr y i n g t o o r ie n t a t e m y s e lf w i t h y o u r v e r s i o n o f – o f t h e s t a t e m e n t e s p e c i a lly w i t h t h e p a g i n a t i o n . J u s t g iv e m e o n e s e c o n d . T h e r e is a – t h e r e is a c o r r e c t i o n t h a t I w a n t t o m a k e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. O n m y s t a t e m e n t it is P N 0 1 4 . It is i n p a r a g r a p h 4 9 C h a ir. Th e s e n t e n c e s ta r t s w i th : “I had d is c u s s e d my concerns about the c a n c e l la t io n fe e w i t h o t h e r … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u s a y p a r a g r a p h 4 9 ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: P a r a g r a p h 4 9 C h a ir y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t o n m y p a g e 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 4 C h a ir, 1 - 4 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is p a g e 1 - 4 . CHAIRPERSON: 1-4? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o r r y, 1 - 4 y e s . Page 26 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . Th e s e n te n c e s ta r t s w i th : “I had d is c u s s e d my concerns about the c a n c e l la t io n fe e w i th o t h e r t w o B o a r d M e m b e r s : M s Ya k h e K w i n a n a a n d D r Ta m b i . In return they v o t e d a g a in s t t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n . ” I w o u l d li k e t o m a k e a c o r r e c ti o n t h e r e . T h e y a b s t a i n e d . Th e y d i d n o t 10 vote against. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th o s e a r e t h e c o r r e c t io n s t h a t I wanted to make. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you Ms Nhantsi. s h o u l d j u s t m a k e c le a r. One other point I – I T h e p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r s o n y o u r s t a te m e n t w e r e i n fa c t - o t h e r t h a n p a r a g r a p h 1 a n d t w o - w e r e a d d e d b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n a f t e r r e c e i p t o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t b e c a u s e w e h a d t o h a v e a w a y t o n a v i g a te w i th i n it p a r t ic u l a r ly f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s . I – I t a k e i t y o u d o n o t ta k e is s u e w i t h t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o . I d o n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I s e e th a t a t t h e e n d o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 2 3 a f te r s i g n i n g y o u s a i d y o u r s fa i th f u l ly. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B e c a u s e I a m n o t l e g a lly a c u t e I a m n o t – w a s - I s u p p o s e d t o s a y y o u r s s i n c e r e l y. Page 27 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: N o n o t – n o t r e a l ly. I t is j u s t t h a t i t i s a s t a t e m e n t a n d n o t a l e tt e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h . CHAIRPERSON: So I was wondering. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A p o l o g is e C h a ir. I a m a n a c c o u n t a n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a n a c c o u n ta n t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. N o , n o I m e a n t h e r e is n o is s u e . It j u s t caught my – my eye. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s N h a n t s i I w o u ld l ik e t o ju s t b e g in w i t h f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s n o t i n g t h a t y o u h a v e m a d e a n a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M s S ti m p e l . T h a t w il l b e d e a l t w i t h in d u e c o u r s e b y t h e C h a ir. D i d y o u h a v e a n o p p o r tu n it y t o w a tc h o r o t h e r w is e f o ll o w th e e v i d e n c e o f Ms S t i m p e l a n d M s – M r v a n d e r M e r w e l a s t 20 week? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s I d i d h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to w a t c h b o t h M s S ti m p e l a n d M r v a n d e r M e r w e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h a t i s j u s t h e lp f u l fo r m e to k n o w b e c a u s e I c a n m a k e r e f e r e n c e th e n t o s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts o f w h a t w a s c o v e r e d i n t h a t t e s t i m o n y. I w o u l d lik e t o b e g i n M s N h a n ts i w i t h r e a l ly Page 28 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 y o u r s t a r t a t S A A a n d f o r th a t p u r p o s e i f w e c o u l d tu r n t o p a g e 2 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d p ic k i t u p a t t h e s ta r t o f th a t p a g e . It is t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f p a r a g r a p h 4 w h ic h b e g in s o n t h e p r e v io u s p a g e b e c a u s e t h e r e I have it that you commenced at SAA on 27 November 2015. Is t h a t correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t h o w y o u c a m e t o b e a p p o i n t e d a t S A A o n t h a t d a te ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. I w a s – I a m P h u m e z a N h a n ts i. A 10 q u a li fi e d c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t . I w a s w o r k i n g a t S iz w e N ts a l u b a G o b o d o . I t i s th e a c c o u n t in g fir m . I h a d a n a u d i t t h a t I w a s d o i n g – t h e jo in t a u d i t – i n fa c t i t w a s s u b c o n tr a c t in g w i t h K w i n a n a & A s s o c i a te s D e n e l . S o S iz w e N ts a l u b a G o b o d o w a s t h e – t h e m a i n a u d i to r s . T h a t is h o w I k n e w M s K w in a n a . O n e o f t h e d a y s s h e a s k e d m e t h a t i f I w o u l d b e i n t e r e s te d in a v ia t io n b e c a u s e I d o h a v e e x p e r i e n c e in a v i a ti o n a s I w a s a u d i ti n g D e n e l . I s a id i t w o u ld b e a n ic e e x p e r i e n c e t o e x p l o r e t h e c o r p o r a te w o r l d a n d – b u t s h e to l d m e t h a t t h e y n e e d t o fo ll o w th e – th e p r o c e s s a s t h e B o a r d b e c a u s e my p r e d e c e s s o r – Mr W o l f – l e f t t h e c o m p a n y. 20 T h e y a r e l o o k in g fo r secondment at the time. S h e th e n e n g a g e d w i t h th e C E O o f S N G . Vic t o r S e k e s e . H is n a m e is O n e o f t h e d a y s l a t e r i n t h e y e a r – I th i n k e a r ly - N o v e m b e r I w a s c a l l e d b y M r S e k e s e m y C E O t o a s k if I w o u ld b e in t e r e s te d . T h e r e i s a n o p p o r tu n i t y f o r s e c o n d m e n t . I s a id y e s . W h i ls t I w a s h a p p y w i t h w o r k in g a t S N G I a ls o w a n t e d – I w a s c u r i o u s in Page 29 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w a n ti n g to e x p l o r e th e c o r p o r a t e w o r ld . S o I s a id y e s . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d b a s e d o n t h e b u n d le t h a t I s a w t h e r e were three CVs that were sent to SAA an d my – my CV was selected a n d I w a s t h e n c a l le d b y C E O Vi c t o r - Mr S e k e s e – t o c o m e a n d s i g n t h e S e c o n d m e n t A g r e e m e n t w h ic h m a d e m e t o t h e n s t a r t a t S A A o n 27 November 2015. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u o c c u p i e d a n In t e r i m C F O p o s i t io n . Is that correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A t t h e ti m e y e s . I w a s t h e I n t e r i m C F O b u t I 10 w a s a s e c o n d e e b e c a u s e I w a s s t il l p a id b y S N G . Th e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S N G a n d S A A o n th e p a y m e n t a r r a n g e m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d i d y o u r s ta t u s c h a n g e fr o m I n t e r i m CFO? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M y s ta t u s c h a n g e d e ff e c t iv e 1 M a y 2 0 1 7 . T h e r e w a s a r e c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s th a t w a s d o n e b y t h e – t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h e B o a r d a t t h e ti m e . I f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e r i g h t t h e – th e h e a d h u n te r a g e n t s th a t t h e y u s e d w e r e M i n d c o r. I a p p l ie d lik e a n y o th e r c a n d i d a t e a n d I t h e n q u a li f ie d . I w a s t o l d th a t I a m t h e o n e w h o – w h o w a s s u i ta b le a n d w h o w o n th e p o s i ti o n . 20 So I then became p e r m a n e n t C F O e ff e c ti v e t h e 1 s t - 1 M a y 2 0 1 7 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t h a t u n t il t h a t p o i n t y o u w e r e in t h e s e c o n d m e n t p o s i t io n a n d y o u r t it le w a s In t e r i m C F O ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s N h a n t s i y o u r e fe r e n c e d t h e fa c t t h a t y o u a r e a q u a li fi e d c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t . Page 30 of 266 T h a t is a ls o a p p a r e n t 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 fr o m y o u r s ta t e m e n t o n p a g e 2 . Ms Nhantsi I take it then that you w o u ld h a v e a g o o d u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th e fi d u c i a r y d u t i e s o f D ir e c t o r s t o c o m p a n i e s o n w h ic h th e y s e r v e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e fi d u c i a r y d u ti e s to comprise? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t k n o w th e m o ff b y h e a d C h a ir b u t o n e o f t h e m is I a m r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h e c o m p a n y t o s a fe g u a r d t h e a s s e t s o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d t o a c t i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y. T h e o t h e r s 10 I w o u l d h a v e t o r e f e r C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . F o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s t h e o n e s I w o u l d lik e to f o c u s o n a r e : “ A c ti n g i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f th e c o m p a n y. ” S o c a n I u n d e r s t a n d it t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e u n d e r s to o d a t th e ti m e a n d d o n o w t h a t t h a t is a k e y r e q u ir e m e n t o f a D ir e c t o r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e o th e r o n e t a k e n f r o m S e c ti o n 7 6 . 3 o f th e C o m p a n ie s A c t is : “ To a c t i n g o o d f a it h a n d fo r a p r o p e r p u r p o s e . ” 20 W o u l d y o u a c c e p t t h a t th o s e a r e d u ti e s a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f t h o s e a t th e ti m e t h a t y o u to o k u p t h e C F O p o s i ti o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I w a s a w a r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Ms N h a n ts i y o u r s t a t e m e n t a ls o in d i c a t e s th a t y o u – y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e p r o c e s s e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t b y S t a te O w n e d E n t e r p r is e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? Is th a t a f a ir s t a te m e n t fo r Page 31 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 me to make? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is . I f a i r ly u n d e r s to o d th e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s i t p a r t o f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t t h e g e n e r a l p o s i t io n f o r s t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n ie s w h e n t h e y p r o c u r e s e r v ic e s is t h a t t h e y m u s t d o s o p u r s u a n t t o a n o p e n a n d c o m p e ti t iv e t e n d e r process? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. W h e n i t i s p r a c t ic a b l e to d o s o yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d a n d s o I t a k e i t t o a l s o h a v e b e e n p a r t 10 o f y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t th e r e m i g h t b e e x c e p t i o n a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e th a t i s n o t p o s s i b l e . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h o s e w o u l d h a v e t o b e ju s t i fi e d . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e y w o u l d h a v e t o b e ju s ti fi e d w it h in th e s y s te m t h a t h a s d e v e l o p e d w i th i n th a t c o m p a n y f o r d e p a r t u r e s fr o m t h e d e f a u l t p o s i ti o n . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: F u l ly a g r e e C h a i r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Thank you. I w o u l d t h e n lik e t o m o v e M s N h a n t s i to M r M a s o ts h a M n g a d i . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Because he is a person who features p r o m in e n t ly i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o j u s t g e t s o m e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s w it h h i m , w h e n th e y c o m m e n c e d , h o w y o u c a m e to i n t e r a c t w i t h h i m . If we can start with when they Page 32 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o m m e n c e d . Yo u i n d ic a t e in y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d w e c a n g o t o p a g e 1 2 f o r t h is a t p a r a g r a p h 4 0 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y in t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h r i g h t a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e . Yo u s a y t h e r e : “ I m m e d i a t e ly w h e n I j o i n e d S A A t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d g a v e m e M r M n g a d i ’s n u m b e r s a n d t o ld m e t h a t h e i s a n a d v is o r a n d a l s o i f I h a v e a n y q u e s t io n s i n t h e s u b m is s i o n s t h a t I w a s b u s y w i t h f o r th e s w a p d e a l I s h o u l d c o n t a c t h i m . 10 He was a ls o g iv e n my n u m b e r b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e Board because he contacted me.” S o c a n w e ta k e it t h a t t h a t o c c u r r e d s h o r tl y a f te r 2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. I c a n c o n f ir m . If I am not m is t a k e n I a m s u r e i t h a p p e n e d t w o d a y s a ft e r I h a d j o i n e d . Th e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d – M s M y e n i – g a v e m e t h e n u m b e r o f M r M n g a d i. A t t h e ti m e t h a t I j o i n e d S A A t h e – th e B o a r d a n d E x e c u tiv e s w e r e b u s y w i t h t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n th e M i n i s te r a t t h e t i m e a b o u t t h e s w a p d e a l. 20 So I did not even have a clue of the swap deal but there was a letter that was needed to be prepared as a response to the – to the M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e . S o in p r e p a r a ti o n f o r th a t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e A c ti n g C E O M s M y e n i g a v e m e t h e n u m b e r s o f M r M n g a d i s a y in g M r M n g a d i is h is a d v is o r. H e is fu ll y a w a r e o f th e tr a n s a c t io n . I f I h a v e a n y q u e s ti o n s o r a ft e r I h a v e d r a f t e d th e l e t te r I c a n Page 33 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 touch base with him. H e k n o w s t h e – t h e tr a n s a c ti o n . So before I c o u l d c o n ta c t h i m h e c o n t a c t e d m e . H e n c e I a m s a y i n g M s M y e n i g a v e h i m m y n u m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d a n d c a n I t a k e it th a t y o u s a v e d th o s e d e t a i ls i n t o y o u r p h o n e a t t h e ti m e s h o r t ly a ft e r y o u a r r iv e d a t S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . I s a v e d th e m C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d id M r M n g a d i c o n t a c t y o u o n y o u r c e ll p h o n e a s o p p o s e d t o th e w o r k l a n d li n e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H e c o n t a c te d m e o n m y c e ll p h o n e C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. S o t h a t is w h y y o u s a y it w o u l d h a v e b e e n M s My e n i w h o w o u ld h a v e g iv e n h i m y o u r c e l l n u m b e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t w o u l d b e t h e p h o n e t h a t y o u s a v e d h is d e t a i ls i n t o . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o t h a t is – p e r h a p s t o c o n c l u d e th a t is t h e fir s t t i m e th a t … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I s ta r t e d e n g a g i n g w i t h h i m . I d i d n o t k n o w h i m b e fo r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : a d v is o r. And you – you referenced that he was an H a d h e b e e n a p p o in t e d t h r o u g h a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s in t o that role? Page 34 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d i d n o t a s k t h a t q u e s t io n t o – t o M s M y e n i a t t h e t i m e . I t o o k i t th e p r o c e s s w a s d o n e b e f o r e my ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u e v e r m a k e i n q u ir ie s a b o u t th a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I m a d e i n q u ir i e s th r o u g h y o u C h a ir a n d I th e n r e a l is e d o r c o n c lu d e d t h a t h e is – M r M n g a d i is h is p e r s o n a l a d v is o r b e c a u s e w h e n I m a d e i n q u ir ie s t o M s - M s K w in a n a s h e t o l d m e th a t i t is – it is M s M y e n i ’s p e r s o n a n d b e c a u s e I w a s m a k in g i n q u ir ie s b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a l s o a n o th e r p e r s o n w h o w a s t h e a d v is o r w h o w a s M r ( i n d is t in c t) N e l a n d I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t h e w a s a p p o in t e d th r o u g h a 10 process. S o I w a s c u r i o u s to u n d e r s ta n d h o w M r M n g a d i w a s t h e n a p p o i n t e d . S o Ms K w i n a n a t o ld m e t h a t it i s – i t i s M s M y e n i ’s p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t c l a r if y ? D o e s th a t s u g g e s t th a t t h e r e w a s n o t th e n a f o r m a l p r o c e s s t o a p p o i n t M r M n g a d i ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t h e w a s t h e r e s i m p ly a s a n a d v is o r t h a t M s My e n i u ti lis e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n a b o u t d i d y o u m a k e t h a t in q u ir y ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B e g i n n i n g o f J a n u a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f 2 0 1 6 ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o r r y, s o r r y. I s t a r t e d 2 7 N o v e m b e r. I m a d e t h a t m i d o f D e c e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u – y o u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e to l d t h a t M r M n g a d i is Page 35 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 h is p e r s o n a l a d v is o r. Yo u m e a n M s My e n i ’s p e r s o n a l a d v is o r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t is w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t – w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. T h a t i s w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M s K w i n a n a to l d m e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o a s d i s ti n c t f r o m b e i n g a n a d v is o r t o th e company? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: To t h e B o a r d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e B o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W o u l d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e – w h a t y o u w e r e b e i n g t o l d w a s th a t M r M n g a d i w a s M s My e n i ’s a d v is o r i n h e r c a p a c i ty a s C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d a s o p p o s e d t o m a y b e t o b e i n g a d v is o r t o t h e B o a r d o r th a t h e w a s M s M y e n i ’s p e r s o n a l a d v i s o r i n w h a te v e r m a t te r s t h a t th e t w o o f t h e m d e c i d e d h e w o u l d a d v i s e h e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H o w I u n d e r s t o o d i t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Is b e c a u s e w i th th e e n g a g e m e n ts th a t I h a d w i t h Mr M n g a d i h e k n e w a l o t a b o u t S A A … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t I w o u l d n o t s a y h e w a s – p e r h a p s h e w a s h is p e r s o n a l b e c a u s e h e w a s n o t p a i d v ia a p a y r o ll o f S A A . Page 36 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o h e n c e I a m s a y i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t h in k Mr M n g a d i w a s h is … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e r p e r s o n a l a d v is o r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Wa s h e r p e r s o n a l – y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t a n d t h a t – a n d t h a t h e w a s n o t p a i d t h r o u g h S A A – t h a t is M r M n g a d i – i s s o m e th i n g y o u w o u l d k n o w o f course because you were the Interim CFO? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v id e n c e a m o m e n t a g o M s N h a n t s i y o u w e r e - y o u w e r e t o l d b y M s M y e n i to e n g a g e h i m i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r y o u a r r i v e d a t S A A b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a l e t te r t h a t n e e d e d t o b e p r e p a r e d i n r e s p o n s e t o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e s w a p d e a l. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id h e a s s i s t y o u i n c r a ft i n g t h a t le t t e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s h e d i d . H e g a v e m e th e in p u t to i n c l u d e 20 in t h e le t t e r a n d t h e n w h e n I fi n a l is e d t h e l e tt e r t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e Ac t in g CEO we then sent it to the Board. They reviewed it and the letter went t o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id th a t n o t s tr ik e y o u a s s tr a n g e a t th e t i m e t h a t s o m e t h ir d p a r ty to S A A w h o w a s n o t b e e n r e m u n e r a t e d b y S A A a t a l l w a s g o i n g t o b e a d v is in g y o u o n w h a t le t t e r s t o w r i te a n d t h e ir Page 37 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o n te n ts b a c k to N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t d id r a is e a b e ll b u t M s M y e n i s a i d M r M n g a d i i s m y p e r s o n f o r a n y is s u e t h a t I n e e d t o g e t c l a r i t y o n . I f M r Zw a n e is n o t a w a r e o f a n y M n g a d i k n o w s v e r y w e l l a b o u t S A A . H e h a s b e e n w o r k in g w i t h h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e is n o t a n e m p lo y e e o f S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: No. To b e h o n e s t I n e v e r a s k e d M s M y e n i h o w M r M n g a d i is p a id . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u l a t e r e s t a b li s h e d t h a t – a p o l o g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k w e h a v e t h e s a m e q u e s ti o n i n m i n d . Yo u c o u l d proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u e s t a b l is h e d l a t e r h e w a s n o t p a id b y SAA? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d li k e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is q u it e – s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is – t h a t is q u i te s tr a n g e t h a t – y o u k n o w – I a s k e d y o u e a r li e r o n w h e th e r y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w h e n i t w a s s a i d t h a t M r M n g a d i w a s M s M y e n i ’s p e r s o n a l a d v i s o r w h e t h e r w h a t w a s m e a n t t h a t h e w a s M s My e n i ’s a d v is o r i n h e r c a p a c i ty a s a M e m b e r o r a C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d y o u s a i d n o . Yo u u n d e r s t o o d th a t h e w a s j u s t h e r o w n p e r s o n a l a d v is o r Page 38 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a n d i n s u p p o r t o f th a t y o u s a i d h e w a s n o t b e i n g p a i d b y t h e B o a r d a n d – a n d i t is – i t is q u i te a s tr a n g e s i t u a t io n a n d – a n d I s a i d I m e a n y o u obviously checked as the Interim CFO you would know who – who is p a i d w h o is n o t p a i d b y t h e – b y S A A . S o s o m e b o d y w h o i s a n a d v is o r t o s o m e b o d y w h o h a p p e n s t o b e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d o r a M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d b u t is a p e r s o n a l a d v is o r is a s k e d t o a d v ic e y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir p e r h a p s I s h o u ld h a v e a t t e m p t e d t o a n s w e r in t w o – i n tw o w a y s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: By s a y in g o n e , h e w a s n o t p a id v ia S A A p a y r o l l a n d t w o h e w a s – h e w a s a d v is i n g M s M y e n i . I am not sure a b o u t o t h e r t h i n g s b u t h e w a s a d v is i n g Ms M y e n i o n S A A m a t t e r s b e c a u s e M s M y e n i s a i d i f t h e r e a r e a n y q u e r i e s o r a n y q u e s ti o n s th a t I h a v e M r M n g a d i h a d a d e e p u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f S A A . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u a li f ic a t i o n t h a t y o u – y o u a r e m a k i n g a n d i t is a l e g i ti m a t e q u a l i fic a ti o n b u t w h a t d o e s r e m a in is w h y w o u l d s h e – a n d t h i s i s s o m e th in g y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e a n a n s w e r f o r. W h y w o u ld s h e w a n t s o m e b o d y t o d o w o r k t h a t a s s is ts t h e 20 I n t e r i m C F O o f S A A o r th a t a s s is ts S A A b u t th a t p e r s o n – b u t S A A d o e s not pay that person? T h a t i s – th a t i s s t r a n g e b e c a u s e i f S A A n e e d s a d v is o r s – a d v is o r s m u s t b e s e c u r e d o r p r o c u r e d i n a c e r t a i n m a n n e r a n d t h e y g e t paid by SAA. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Page 39 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. H e n c e I i n q u ir e d w it h M s K w i n a n a a n d M s K w in a n a s a i d t o m e M r M n g a d i is – i s a – s h e p u t it r o u g h ly t o s a y M r M n g a d i is D u d u ’s p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. (IsiZulu). M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: ( Is i Zu l u ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( I s i Z u l u ) . W e ll I – I ju s t u s e d i s i Z u l u b e c a u s e I c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y w h e n s h e w a s s p e a k i n g i n E n g lis h w h a t m u s t h a v e been said … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S a i d i n Zu l u . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In is i Z u l u a n d s h e h a s c o n fir m e d . S o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I w o u l d l ik e t o ju s t p r o b e a l i t tl e b i t f u r th e r p u r s u a n t t o t h e d e b a t e – th e d i s c u s s i o n th a t y o u h a v e b e e n h a v i n g w i t h t h e C h a ir. I t s o u n d s t o m e fr o m y o u r d e s c r i p ti o n a s t h o u g h t h e r e w a s a t h ir d M e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t Te a m o f S A A b e c a u s e a s I h a d y o u r e v id e n c e e a r li e r y o u w e r e t o l d i f t h e r e w e r e m a t t e r s i n r e l a ti o n t o S A A a ff a ir s t h a t M r Z w a n e – w h o w a s t h e A c ti n g C E O a t t h e t i m e – w o u l d n o t a s s is t o n . 20 T h e n y o u w e r e t o l d to g o Mr M n g a d i w h ic h p u t s h i m a s o n e o f t h e th r e e p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n t h e E x e c u ti v e p o s i t io n a t S A A . Is t h a t a f a ir s u m m a r y o f h o w y o u i n t e r a c te d w i t h h i m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t r e a ll y b u t y o u a r e r i g h t a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o s a y y o u a r e r ig h t a n d w r o n g b u t h a l fw a y t h e r e . T h e o n ly i s s u e s t h a t I w o u ld g e t c l a r i ty p e r h a p s fr o m M r M n g a d i w o u l d b e t h e o n e s r e l a ti n g Page 40 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t o t h e B o a r d . S o I w o u l d n o t s a y h e w a s th e th ir d Ex e c u ti v e b e c a u s e o n o t h e r m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g to th e d a y t o d a y r u n n i n g o f th e b u s in e s s I w a s n o t e n g a g in g M r M n g a d i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n S A A w a s w r i ti n g l e t te r s t o N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i n w h a t c a p a c i t y w e r e y o u p r e p a r i n g t h o s e l e t t e r s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: p r o t o c o l. I w a s p r e p a r in g th e l e t t e r s in t e r m s o f t h e Th o s e l e t t e r s n e e d t o g o – t h e y n e e d to b e s i g n e d b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d g o to N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. S o h e w a s th e n a s s is ti n g i n g iv i n g i n p u t a n d I a n d M r Z w a n e w o u l d w r i t e t h e l e t t e r s , 10 g iv e th e l e t te r s t o t h e B o a r d fo r t h e B o a r d to r e v ie w a n d fo r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d t o s i g n t h e l e tt e r a n d s e n d t o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e B o a r d a n d t h e C h a ir w o u l d r e l y o n t h e ir E x e c u t iv e Te a m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e i n p u t i n to t h a t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h o s e le t t e r s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s in a c c o r d a n c e w i th p r o p e r c o r p o r a t e governance? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a g r e e th a t i t i s s tr a n g e th a t a t h i r d Page 41 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p a r t y w h o is n o t a M e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u t iv e o f S A A is m a k in g i n p u t in t o t h a t w h ic h th e Ex e c u t iv e p la c e s b e fo r e t h e B o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t is s tr a n g e C h a i r a n d a l s o w e n e e d to be mindful or perhaps I need to highlight that those days I was week or two weeks old at SAA. S o I w a s n o t r e a l ly a c c u s t o m e d t o h o w S A A worked. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . T h a n k y o u Ms N h a n ts i . W e w il l c o m e b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f a t w h a t p o in t i n t i m e y o u m a y h a v e b e c o m e m o r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e r o l e o f M r M n g a d i . I w o u l d li k e to g o – y o u 10 m e n ti o n e d t h e s w a p tr a n s a c t io n . F o r t h o s e u n i n i ti a t e d i n r e l a ti o n to t h e s w a p tr a n s a c ti o n c o u ld y o u p l e a s e a s s is t u s w i t h w h a t t h a t r e l a t e d t o . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I c a m e a t a v e r y la t e s t a g e o n th e s w a p d e a l tr a n s a c ti o n . I d o n o t h a v e m u c h m e m o r y o n i t b e c a u s e I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e t r a n s a c ti o n b u t m y r e c o ll e c ti o n . I c a m e a t t h e t i m e w h e n t h e r e w e r e l e tt e r s b e t w e e n t h e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e B o a r d . I r e c a ll a le t t e r w h e r e i t w a s s a y in g t h e C h a ir – t h e M i n i s t e r o f Fi n a n c e w a s g i v i n g a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o th e B o a r d t o s to p th e s w a p d e a l . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h e r e – m a n y y e a r s a g o S A A o r d e r e d a ir c r a f t s t h a t w e r e w h i t e b o d y a ir c r a f ts . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e r e w e r e 20 1 0 o r 2 0 th e n . N o w th e y w a n t e d to s w a p t h o s e a i r c r a f t. S o t h e – t h e d e b a te o r t h e – t h e d i s c u s s io n s w e r e a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s . S o I c a m e a t a s t a g e w h e r e t h e r e w e r e t h o s e l e t te r s w e r e t h e n a n i n s tr u c t io n fr o m t h e Fi n a n c e M in is t e r s a y in g s t o p t h e tr a n s a c t io n a n d a ll t h a t . S o t h a t is t h e background that I have. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u Ms N h a n ts i . C h a ir th is is a n a s p e c t Page 42 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h a t w i ll c o m e u p i n a l l l ik e li h o o d in t h e s e c o n d e v i d e n c e s e s s i o n f o r a v i a ti o n b u t j u s t f o r th e a s s is ta n c e o f u n d e r s t a n d in g Mr M n g a d i ’s r o l e . H e w a s p a r ti c u la r ly i n v o lv e d o n th a t A ir b u s s w a p t r a n s a c t io n . Is th a t correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir h e w a s i n v o lv e d b e c a u s e h e k n e w he was the one who was giving me the background - myself and M r Zw a n e – b a c k g r o u n d o n – o n t h a t s w a p d e a l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C o u l d I a s k y o u t o g o to p a g e 2 0 0 in t h e b u n d le i n fr o n t o f y o u ? T h a t is D D 2 . I t c o n t a i n s y o u r s t a te m e n t 10 a n d i t is a n a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: What page again? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 0 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u j u s t g o – a p o l o g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u tu r n t o t h e l a s t p a g e o f t h a t l e t t e r t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 2 0 2 c a n y o u te ll u s w h o s i g n s t h a t l e t t e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 Ye s C h a ir i t’s s i g n e d M a s o ts h a m M n g a d i E x e c u t iv e C li e n t C o v e r a g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Is th a t th e s a m e M r M n g a d i w e h a v e b e e n speaking about? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. T h i s r e la t e s , t h is i s a le t t e r th a t r e l a t e s to t h e a ir b u s s w a p tr a n s a c t i o n , is t h i s a l e tt e r t h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f a t t h e Page 43 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 ti m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o C h a ir, I w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h e l e tt e r. Thank you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: P e r h a p s to s u b s ta n ti a t e i t ’s d a t e d 3 0 t h October 2015. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d w h a t I w a s i n t e r e s t e d i n w a s w h e th e r, in y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h M r M n g a d i a f t e r y o u r a r r iv a l w h ic h i s o f c o u r s e l a te r t h a n t h is d a t e , w h e th e r t h is le t t e r w a s e v e r p r e s e n t e d t o y o u o r y o u c o n s id e r e d it , y o u ’ ll s e e th a t i t d e a ls w i t h t th e r o l e f o r th e 10 a s s is t a n c e o f t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n A i r w a y s i n i t’s p r o c u r e m e n t o f n e w a ir c r a f t a n d it s e t s o u t a g r e a t d e a l o f d e t a il a b o u t w h a t t h e a d v a n t a g e s w o u ld b e f o r S A A if i t w e r e t o c o n c lu d e a l e a s e tr a n s a c t io n i n r e la t io n t o t h e s e a ir c r a f t . So when you were working on this matter and e n g a g i n g w i t h Mr M n g a d i w a s t h i s le t t e r b r o u g h t t o y o u r a t te n ti o n a t a l l? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o C h a ir it w a s n o t a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , I t h i n k t h i s l e t te r i s s t ill , p e r h a p s s u b s t a n t ia t in g o r m o t iv a ti n g th e a d v a n t a g e s s o I c a m e a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h e M i n is t e r w a s s a y i n g s t o p the swap deal. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , i n s o f a r a s y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i th M r M n g a d i in r e l a ti o n to B n P i s c o n c e r n e d , w h e n d id t h o s e o c c u r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I ’ m tr y i n g t o g o b a c k b e c a u s e t h is is f o u r y e a r s a g o a n d I w o u ld li k e t o b e a s a c c u r a t e a s I c a n , t h e r e w e r e e n g a g e m e n t , a s I s a id I s ta r t e d i n e n g a g i n g M r M n g a d i i n 2 0 1 5 , t h e N P c a m e in t h e p i c t u r e a f t e r th e tr a n s a c t io n a l a d v is o r, I t h i n k a t t h e Page 44 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 ti m e I w a s a ls o e n g a g in g w i t h h i m o n t h e B n P tr a n s a c ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l le t m e m a y b e j u s t a s s is t w it h th e c h r o n o lo g y, B n P t h e b i d f o r th e tr a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r s e r v i c e s w a s i n t h e m i d d l e o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 , m y q u e s ti o n w o u ld b e , d o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r y o u e n g a g e d w i t h M r M n g a d i i n a d v a n c e o f th a t o r o n ly a f te r t h a t i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ar e y o u s a y i n g i n te r ms o f th e b i d t o a p p o i n t t h e tr a n s a c t io n a l a d v i s o r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s . N o t h e b i d w a s d o n e – I d id n ’t e n g a g e Mr M n g a d i o n th a t , t h e b id w a s d o n e b y t h e b i d a d ju d ic a t i o n , t h e b i d e v a l u a t i o n a n d t h e b i d s e l e c t io n c o m m i t t e e s , w h ic h I d o n ’ t s i t in a n y. S o t h e o n l y ti m e t h a t t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n c a m e t o m e w a s a f t e r a ll t h o s e c o m m i t t e e s h a v e c o n c lu d e d t h e w o r k th a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e a n d B n P w a s m o tiv a t e d a s t h e p r e fe r r e d b i d d e r f o r t r a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n e n g a g e m e n t s w i t h Mr M n g a d i a b o u t t h o s e tr a n s a c t i o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s d id t h a t o c c u r o n l y a f te r th e ir a p p o i n t m e n t? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: 20 Ye s i t d i d , I w o u l d a ls o l ik e t o h i g h l ig h t a n d s a y a c c o r d i n g t o m y r e c o ll e c t io n – b e c a u s e th e r e a s o n w h y I’ m s a y i n g s o i s , t h e r e w a s i n te r a c t io n i n a w a y, s o m e t i m e s r e g a r d i n g B n P t h e r e w o u ld b e Mr M a h la n g u w r it i n g t o m e a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e M r M n g a d i c a l li n g m e . S o i f y o u a s k m e , I s e e Mr M n g a d i a ls o a s a t e a m p l a y e r in t h e B n P C a p i t a l c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , t h e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e to a m e e ti n g Page 45 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h a t w a s h e l d w it h S A A i n M r M a h la n g u ’s s ta t e m e n t , I c a n t a k e y o u t h e r e in a m o m e n t b u t le t m e j u s t te ll y o u w h a t i t is . There were m e e ti n g s h e l d o n t h e 2 5 t h o f A p r il a n d t h e 2 6 t h o f A p r i l w h ic h M r M a h l a n g u s a id , M r M n g a d i a t t e n d e d o n b e h a l f o f B n P, w o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o c o n f ir m w h e t h e r y o u w e r e p r e s e n t a t t h o s e m e e t in g s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 25th and 26th? O f A p r il y e s . C h a ir I w o u l d lik e t o g o t h e r e , t h e r e a s o n f o r th a t is th e r e w a s a m e e ti n g t h a t I a t t e n d e d a n d M n g a d i w a s t h e r e 10 b u t it w a s w i t h M r v a n d e r M e r w e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n t h e 8 t h o f J u n e , s o w h a t I’ m in t e r e s t e d in w a s , p r io r t o t h a t – l e t m e t a k e y o u t o M r M a h l a n g u ’s s t a te m e n t s o w e c a n p l a c e i t i n c o n t e x t , th a t i s E x h i b it D D 4 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Yo u ’l l fi n d i t a t p a g e 1 8 in t h a t s t a te m e n t . Ye s . S o a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 8 o n p a g e 1 8 , th e f o ll o w i n g is r e c o r d e d , “ D u r i n g t h e p r o c e s s o f d o i n g a f i n a n c ia l a n a ly s is o f S A A’s 20 b a l a n c e s h e e t a n d m e e t in g s , M r M n g a d i h e l d w i th S A A o n t h e 25th and the 26th of April 2016 we became aware of the fact t h a t S A A c o u l d n o l o n g e r w a i t f o r t h e fi n a n c i a l a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s to b e c o m p l e t e d a s S A A w a s i n d ir e n e e d o f fu n d i n g b e c a u s e o f, a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s ” , A n d t h e n th r e e r e a s o n s fo r t h a t p o s i ti o n o f u r g e n c y a r e Page 46 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 tr a v e r s e d , if y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t h o u g h t o p a g e – p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 9 i t records, “ A s a r e s u l t o f th e a b o v e fi n d i n g s M r M n g a d i a d v i s e d t h a t th e c o n s o r ti u m , t h a t is a r e fe r e n c e t o t h e c o n s o r t iu m b e t w e e n B n P C a p it a l a n d I n - L i n e Tr a d i n g , h a d b e e n a s k e d t o s u b m i t a p r o p o s a l in t h i s r e g a r d ” . M s N h a n t s i i f w e ju s t s t e p b a c k w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d t h e s e t w o p a r a g r a p h s t o b e s a y i n g is t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g a t S A A o n t h e 2 5 t h a n d 2 6 t h o f A p r i l w h i c h M r M n g a d i a t t e n d e d a n d a t w h i c h t h e d ir e s i t u a t i o n 10 o f S A A w a s d is c u s s e d a n d a t w h i c h h e w a s a s k e d t o s u b m i t a p r o p o s a l f o r t h e s o u r c i n g o f fu n d s . D o y o u r e c a ll h a v i n g b e e n a t t h o s e m e e t i n g s on those two days? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o C h a ir, I w a s n o t in t h e s e m e e t in g s . W h o w o u l d h e t h e n h a v e b e e n m e e ti n g w i th ? T h e c o n t e n t o f – o n t h e s e m a t u r it y d a te s and the amounts of the loans that were maturing I’m aware of but I n e v e r h a d a m e e ti n g a t S A A w i th M r M n g a d i a n d d i s c u s s e d t h is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Would those not have been the obvious things t h a t y o u w e r e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r i n y o u r p o r t f o l io ? 20 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s , h e n c e I’ m s a y i n g I’ m f a m il ia r w i t h t h e c o n te n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w o u l d i t s tr ik e y o u a s o d d th a t t h e r e w o u l d b e a m e e ti n g a r r a n g e d b e t w e e n S A A a n d M r M n g a d i t o d is c u s s m a t t e r s d ir e c t ly i n y o u r p o r t f o li o t h a t y o u d id n o t a t t e n d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I w o u ld s a y it ’s o d d C h a ir. Page 47 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a r e y o u q u it e s u r e o f t h e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e n ’t a t t h o s e t w o m e e ti n g s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m a h u n d r e d p e r c e n t s u r e C h a ir. Thank you. Would there have been anyone under you who may h a v e a t te n d e d w i t h o u t y o u r k n o w l e d g e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I’ m n o t a w a r e I n e v e r g o t a n y feedback. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: O f h e m e e ti n g t h a t h a p p e n e d f o r t w o d a y s d is c u s s in g th e s e p o in t s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d a r e y o u in a p o s i ti o n t o s a y i t ’s u n l ik e l y th a t s o m e b o d y u n d e r y o u w o u l d h a v e a t t e n d e d a m e t in g o f t h a t n a t u r e w i t h o u t m e n ti o n i n g i t to y o u in o n e a y o r a n o t h e r w i t h o u t y o u b e c o m i n g aware. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir, I ’ m c e r t a i n t h a t i f t h e y a t te n d e d a m e e ti n g , e s p e c i a l ly a m e e ti n g th a t t a k e s t w o d a y s I w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w a r e th a t t h e y a r e a tt e n d i n g a t w o - d a y m e e t in g a n d I w o u ld h a v e b e e n b r i e f e d w h e n th e y ’r e b a c k fr o m t h e m e e t in g . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Unless maybe if they didn’t want you to know that t h e y a t te n d e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e C h a ir, th a t’s a p o s s i b il it y b u t j a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I ’d li k e to t h e n a s k y o u to g o b a c k in y o u r fi le w h ic h i s E x h i b it D D 2 t o p a g e 2 8 5 . Page 48 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t b a c k t o t h e …( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m t h e r e – s o r r y C h a ir. B a c k to D D 2 a n d it ’s a t p a g e 2 8 5 . 285 thank you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I ’ m th e r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i c a n y o u h e l p u s w i th t h e m a il a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e , c a n y o u t e l l u s w h o i t’s fr o m a n d w h o it ’s t o ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t ’s fr o m M a s o ts h a M n g a d i t o P h u m e z a – t o myself. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e c o n te n t , w o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: “Good afternoon madam, please find a tt a c h e d u n d e r c o v e r h e r e o f o f a le t t e r f o r y o u r k in g a t t e n t io n , lo o k in g f o r w a r d t o e n g a g i n g w i t h y o u o n t h i s is s u e , t h a n k s , k in d e s t r e g a r d M a s o ts h a M n g a d i ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u t u r n o v e r tw o p a g e s , j u s t t o g e t t h e a t t a c h e d l e t te r, y o u ’l l s e e th a t , t h a t is a l e t te r fr o m B n P C a p i ta l d a t e d t h e 2 9 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 6 , c a n y o u t e l l u s w h o t h a t is fr o m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 I t is fr o m D a n ie l M a h la n g u t h e C E O o f B n P C a p it a l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t ’s a d d r e s s e d t o w h o ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: It ’s a d d r e s s e d to t h e C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ff ic e r o f S A A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Is t h a t y o u r s e l f a t th e ti m e ? I t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e i n te r i m , y e s . Page 49 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d if y o u ’ ll ju s t r e a d t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e there? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: “ F u r t h e r t o o u r m e e ti n g s o f 2 5 a n d 2 6 A p r i l r e g a r d in g S A A’s fi n a n c i a l s t a te o f a ff a ir s a n d o u r in t e r r o g a t io n o f t h e S A S f i n a n c i a l i n f o r m a t io n in c l u d i n g i t ’s b a l a n c e s h e e t and i n c o m e s ta t e m e n t i t is o u r c o n s id e r e d v ie w t h a t a tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r m a n d a te h a s b e e n a u g m e n t e d f o r t h e f o ll o w i n g r e a s o n s ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h a n k y o u th e r e ’s n o n e e d t o g o o n fo r now…(intervention). CHAIRPERSON: H a s to b e a u g m e n t e d h e y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Indeed. Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i d o y o u r e c a ll r e c e iv i n g t h is e m a i l? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s I d o , e v e n t h o u g h it w a s a l o n g ti m e a g o , y e s I d o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e c a ll th a t a t t a c h e d le t t e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s b u t I s t il l d o n ’t r e c a ll th e m e e ti n g , t h e t w o - d a y m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Did you then go back to him and say I don’t k n o w w h a t m e e ti n g s y o u ’r e r e fe r r i n g t o ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d o n ’ t r e c a l l g o i n g b a c k C h a ir b u t a l l I c a n s a y t h a t I k n o w, th a t I d i d w a s t o s e n d t h e in f o r m a t io n – t h e d e b t p r o f il e o f t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e a lr e a d y a t t h is t i m e t h e y w e r e appointed. B n P C a p i t a l w a s a lr e a d y a p p o in t e d a s a tr a n s a c ti o n a l Page 50 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a d v is o r, s o t h e i n f o r m a ti o n o f t h e d e b t p r o f il e o f t h e c o m p a n y w a s g i v e n t o t h e m b u t a t w o - d a y m e e t in g I d o n ’ t r e c a l l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h i s is a l e t te r r e la t e d t o e x p a n d i n g t h e s c o p e o f th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r s e r v ic e s , is n ’t i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t’s l o o k s l ik e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPESON: Ye s a n d i t s e e m s to . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . S o r r y M s H o f m e y r h a s s h e h a d a c h a n c e to r e a d h e w h o le le t t e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 CHAIRPERSON: A p o l o g i e s l e t ’s g i v e h e r t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty. H a v e y o u h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d t h e w h o le le t t e r ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t w a s a l o n g ti m e a g o C h a ir, i f I c a n b e g iv e n a c h a n c e … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: N o I m e a n r e c e n t ly to r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y i t m i g h t b e n e c e s s a r y th a t – i f y o u f e e l t h a t y o u n e e d to g e t th e c o n t e x t , j u s t in d i c a t e , I w o n d e r M s H o f m e y r w h e t h e r th e r e a r e n ’t p a r ti c u l a r l e t te r s o r d o c u m e n t s th a t y o u m ig h t w a n t t o h a v e a l it t le b i t o f ti m e t o l o o k a t p r o p e r l y b e c a u s e i t ’s b e e n a l o n g ti m e a n d s h e m ig h t j u s t r e fr e s h h e r m e m o r y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w e h a v e n o d i ffi c u l ty w i th th a t , ju s t i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o c e d u r e , a ll o f t h e s e d o c u m e n t s w e r e s e n t t o M s N h a n ts i a b o u t …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: O h th e y w e r e s e n t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed about a week or so ago, so she has b e e n i n r e c e i p t o f th e m f o r th a t p e r i o d . Page 51 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s o n t h e b a s is o f t h a t e n g a g e m e n t t h a t I h a d a s s u m e d th a t w e c o u l d w o r k w i th i t b u t M s N h a n t s i , a t a n y p o i n t t h a t y o u ’d l ik e t o g o o v e r a d o c u m e n t t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y, o f c o u r s e y o u s h o u l d i n d i c a t e th a t . CHAIRPERSON: No I thought she might not have had that chance so it ’s fi n e if s h e h a s h a d t h a t c h a n c e , b u t i f, i n o r d e r t o r e s p o n d y o u ju s t w a n t to h a v e a l o o k a g a in a t a n y d o c u m e n t , j u s t l e t u s k n o w. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 Ye s C h a ir, i f I c a n b e g iv e n t w o m in u t e s j u s t t o r e a d t h is o n e s p e c i fi c a ll y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: I’m done Chair thank you. O k a y ju s t b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d , y o u d i d r e c e iv e t h e s e d o c u m e n ts a b o u t a w e e k a g o o r s o . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERON: Did you get a change to read them? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir. J a o k a y I ’ m ju s t w a n t i n g to a le r t y o u th a t I’v e a l lo w e d y o u w i t h th is o n e b u t I w o n ’ t a l l o w y o u t o g o t h r o u g h e v e r y o n e i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u d id h a v e a c h a n c e . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W h e n I s a y I w o n ’t a l lo w y o u t o g o t h r o u g h e v e r y o n e t h a t i s t o r e a d fr o m b e g i n n i n g t o e n d b u t o b v i o u s l y i f y o u w a n t to ju s t h a v e a lo o k a t a p a r t ic u l a r p a r t th e n th a t’s fi n e , I w a s g e t t in g t h e i m p r e s s io n e a r li e r o n t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o l o o k a t t h e le t t e r r e c e n tl y, s o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . Page 52 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u C h a ir, fo r y o u r in d u l g e n c e . S o t h e c h a n g e – th e i d e a is t o t r y a n d b e f a ir t o y o u b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e w e w a n t t o u s e o u r t i m e p r o p e r ly. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y C h a ir, t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ms Nhantsi can I just c o n fir m , y o u r e v i d e n c e i n d ic a te s t h a t y o u d id n o t a t t e n d a m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 5 t h a n d 2 6 t h o f A p r il w i t h Mr M n g a d i , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. D i d y o u a tt e n d a m e e ti n g o n t h o s e d a y s w it h Mr Mahlangu? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o I n e v e r a t t e n d e d a m e e ti n g w i t h M r M a h l a n g u I’ v e n e v e r s e e n h i m , I’ v e b e e n s e n d in g i n f o r m a ti o n t o h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u f o r t h a t . I n r e l a ti o n t o t h is l e t te r t h o u g h t , I w o u l d lik e t o p r o b e i t a b it f u r t h e r b e c a u s e i t c o m e s t o y o u o n t h e 2 9 t h o f A p r i l a n d it r e fe r s t o m e e ti n g s o n th e 2 5 t h a n d t h e 2 6 t h o f A p r il , r e g a r d i n g S A A’s fi n a n c i a l s t a te o f a ff a ir s , t h a t ’s y o u r p o r tf o li o is it n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. W e r e y o u n o t s u r p r i s e d t o l e a r n o f m e e ti n g s h a p p e n in g w i t h i n y o u r p o r t fo li o th r e e d a y s a n d f o u r d a y s p r i o r t o r e c e i v i n g t h i s l e tt e r w h ic h y o u d id n o t a t te n d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir c h a n c e s a r e I w o u l d h a v e b e e n s u r p r is e d b u t t h i s l e t t e r d a t e d 2 9 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 6 c o m e s a t a ti m e w h e r e w e – a ll o w m e t o g o b a c k , w e r e c e i v e d a n u p d a te o n n e w s fr o m F D C Page 53 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h a t w e w i ll n o l o n g e r b e fu n d i n g t o th e t u n e o f 1 5 b i ll io n b e c a u s e o f t h e d ir e c t iv e t h a t th e y r e c e i v e d f r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t th e y s h o u ld s t o p g iv i n g S A A f u n d in g . S o w e h a d t h e n , a m e e ti n g w i th – a t e l e c o m w i t h t h e B o a r d u p d a t in g th e a b o u t t h is s o t h e B o a r d th e n a s k e d u s o n t h e 2 1 s t o f A p r i l t h a t w e n e e d t o e x p lo r e e x p a n d in g t h e s c o p e o f B n P to in c l u d e t h e s o u r c in g o f f u n d s . S o t h i s i s n o w 2 9 t h o f A p r i l , th is is a f t e r t h a t d a t e , s o t h i s i s th e d a t e w h e r e w e r e c e i v e d – w e a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d a r e s o lu t io n fr o m t h e B o a r d t o e x p a n d t h e s c o p e o f B n P t o i n c lu d e t h e s o u r c in g o f fu n d s . S o t h e c o n te n t o f – t h a t a r e o n t h e l e t te r is w h a t w e 10 d is c u s s e d a ls o w i t h th e B o a r d a n d r a i s i n g c o n c e r n s o n t h e u r g e n c y o f t h e lo a n s t h a t a r e m a t u r i n g a t t h e e n d o f J u n e t o t h e tu n e o f 7 . 3 b il li o n . S o m e o f th e c o n te n t o f th e l e t t e r ta lk s a b o u t w h a t w a s th e r e o n t h e s c o p e o f th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d N h a n ts i t h a t B o a r d r e s o lu t io n o f t h e 2 1 s t o f A p r il , y o u w i ll f in d in M s S t i m p e l’s b u n d le , b u n d le B a t p a g e 4 4 1 , it ’s n o t p a r t ic u l a r l y n e c e s s a r y th a t y o u g o t h e r e , I j u s t w a n t y o u to b e a s s u r e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a B o a r d r e s o lu t io n b y r o u n d - r o b in o n t h e 2 1 s t o f A p r il r e s o lv in g t o a p p r o v e th e e x t e n s io n o f s c o p e o f a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r to i n c l u d e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d in g o f 1 5 b il li o n f o r S o u t h A f r ic a n 20 A ir w a y s , i s t h a t t h e o n e y o u ’r e r e f e r r in g to ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. M y q u e s t io n s t ill r e m a i n s t h o u g h M s N h a n ts i, h o w c o u l d i t b e th a t Mr M a h l a n g u o r Mr M n g a d i a n d B n P C a p it a l w e r e h a v i n g m e e ti n g s p u r s u a n t t o t h a t B o a r d d i r e c ti v e o n t h e 2 5 t h a n d 2 6 t h o f A p r il a t w h ic h t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a t e o f a ff a i r s o f S A A w e r e b e i n g d i s c u s s e d Page 54 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a n d y o u , a s t h e C F O o f S A A h a d n o k n o w l e d g e t h a t th o s e m e e t in g s were taking place? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir. A n d y o u h a v e n o i n s i g h t f o r u s a s t o w h o th e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n m e e ti n g w i th if i t w a s n ’ t y o u o r y o u r d e p a r t m e n t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o w I w o u l d h a v e t o s p e c u l a te , I d o n ’t k n o w C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o d i d y o u r e s p o n d to t h i s le t t e r w h i c h s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u w e r e p a r t o f m e e ti n g s o f 2 5 a n d 2 6 A p r i l 2 0 1 6 , d id y o u r e s p o n d 10 t o i t a n d p o i n t o u t th a t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t th e y w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir I d i d n o t r e s p o n d h e n c e I ’ m s a y in g t h e l e t te r d a te d 2 9 , c a m e a t t h e ti m e w h e r e w e w e r e b u s y t h e n tr y i n g to d o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s b a s e d o n t h e – a n d c h e c k t h e c o n fi n e m e n ts , b a s e d o n t h e f a c t th a t th e r e a r e l o a n s th a t a r e u r g e n tl y c o m i n g t o m a t u r e . S o c h a n c e s I w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e l e t te r m a y b e I w o u ld n ’t h a v e e v e n g iv e n t h e a tt e n ti o n o n t h e d e ta il o f th e l e tt e r b e c a u s e w e w e r e u r g e n tly tr y in g to th e c o n f in e m e n t – w o r k i n g w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t t o c o n fi n e a n d s o u r c e t h e f u n d s b e c a u s e t h e l o a n s w e r e about to mature. 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r y o u r e a d t h e l e t te r a t t h a t ti m e , a f te r r e c e iv i n g i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: I d o n ’ t r e c a ll i t C h a ir. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r y o u d i d r e c e iv e t h e le t t e r a t t h a t ti m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s o n m y m a il b o x C h a ir, s o y e s I d i d Page 55 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e c e i v e t h e le t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u d i d r e c e iv e i t b u t y o u … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t I d o n ’ t r e c a l l i t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u r e a d i t a t a l l? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t o f c o u r s e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t C h a ir l e t m e a ls o c o n t i n u e , a s I ’ m s a y in g s o m e o f t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e le t t e r i s w h a t i s t h e m a n d a te o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r w h ic h B n P C a p i ta l w a s a p p o i n te d to d o . 10 CHAIRPERSON: N o I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g , I ’ m c o n c e r n e d t h a t y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r y o u r e a d t h e l e tt e r, a m I c o r r e c t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r e v i d e n c e in t h a t w a y t h a t y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u r e a d it o r n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: N o I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r C h a ir. Ye s b e c a u s e I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t w h e n y o u r e a d it n o w, y o u w o u l d r e m e m b e r i f i t ’s a l e tt e r t h a t y o u h a d r e a d b e f o r e b u t y o u d o r e m e m b e r th a t y o u d i d r e c e i v e i t , th a t y o u h a v e n o p r o b l e m with? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s is it p o s s ib l e t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e i g n o r e d i t a n d n o t r e a d i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir i t ’s p o s s i b l e t h a t I m i g h t n o t h a v e d e li b e r a t e ly ig n o r e d i t b u t – b e c a u s e w e w e r e t o o b u s y, I w o u l d h a v e , p e r h a p s fo r g o t t o r e a d it a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s M s H o f m e y r ? Page 56 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i I’ ll c o m e b a c k t o t h a t p o in t i n d u e c o u r s e i f I m a y w h e n w e d e a l w i t h y o u r m o tiv a ti o n f o r t h e e x te n s io n o f t h e s c o p e b e c a u s e c e r t a i n ly s o m e o f th e m o t iv a t i o n t h a t is c o n ta i n e d i n t h is l e t te r i s w h a t u lt i m a t e ly fi n d s i t’s w a y i n to y o u r m o ti v a t io n w h i c h I’ ll s u g g e s t t o y o u i n d u e c o u r s e , is a t le a s t a n in d ic a t o r t h a t y o u w e r e f a m ili a r w i th t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e l e t te r b u t I ’ m h a p p y t o g o t o th a t in d u e course. B e f o r e w e le a v e th e t o p i c o f i n t e r a c ti o n s w i th M r M n g a d i , I ’d lik e t o j u s t t a k e y o u t o s o m e o f th e W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n s t h a t y o u ’v e p r o v i d e d to th e C o m m i s s io n o f y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n 10 yourself and Mr Mngadi and for that purpose if we can maybe just go to – i n t h a t s a m e b u n d le p a g e 1 0 1 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m t h e r e C h a ir. W h a t is t h a t M s N h a n ts i ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: It ’s a W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e f r o m M a s o t s h a Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i s t h i s fr o m t h e p h o n e t h a t y o u s a v e d h is d e t a i ls i n t o a s y o u d e s c r ib e d e a r li e r i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d a s i s r e f le c t e d a t t h e t o p t h e r e , is t h a t h o w y o u s a v e d h i s d e ta il s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. Masotsha Mngadi SAA/Nedbank. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i n l a te N o v e m b e r, t w o d a y s a f t e r y o u a r r iv e d a n d y o u g o t h is d e t a ils y o u w e r e a w a r e th a t Mr M n g a d i w a s Page 57 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a s s o c i a t e d w i th N e d b a n k , is t h a t c o r r e c t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir h e t o l d m e . He told you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o g o n e x t – w e ll w h a t I’ d l ik e to d o M s N h a n ts i i s j u s t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f n a v ig a ti n g y o u r e v i d e n c e , i n d ic a te t h a t th e r e a r e fiv e d e c is io n s th a t w e r e t a k e n i n r e l a ti o n t o th e B – a t l e a s t th e 1 5 b i ll io n c a p i t a l r a is i n g w h ic h a r e o f p a r t ic u l a r i m p o r t a n c e a s w e tr y t o u n r a v e l w h a t h a p p e n e d in r e l a t i o n t o 10 t h is f u n d r a i s i n g a t S A A . I ’ d l ik e to t a k e y o u , in i ti a l ly t h r o u g h t h o s e f iv e d e c is i o n s a n d h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n to w h e t h e r y o u , to d a y, s t a n d b y t h o s e d e c is io n s th a t w e r e ta k e n a n d I d o M s N h a n ts i b e c a u s e – a n d y o u ’ll c o r r e c t m e i f t h i s i s n o t a f a i r r e a d in g o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t b u t a s I r e a d y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u m a y w e ll h a v e s u p p o r te d d e c is i o n s a t t h e ti m e , k n o w in g w h a t y o u k n e w b u t y o u r a is e s e r i o u s c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e m n o w, is th a t a f a ir r e a d i n g o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. S o f o r i n tr o d u c t o r y p u r p o s e s I’ d lik e to j u s t g o t h r o u g h t h e fi v e I’ d l ik e t o g e t o n r e c o r d w h a t y o u r p o s i ti o n is i n 20 r e l a ti o n t o th o s e f iv e i n b r o a d t e r m s a n d t h e n m y p r o p o s a l f o r th e r e s t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e i s to d e lv e i n to s o m e o f th e m i n a b i t m o r e d e t a i l w h e r e i t b e c o m e s r e le v a n t t o d o s o . I f w e c a n s t a r t w i t h t h e d e c is io n t o appoint the Free State D e v e lo p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n to source the 1 5 b il li o n , Ms N h a n ts i y o u w i ll r e c a ll t h a t , t h a t o c c u r r e d i n a D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 m e e t i n g o f t h e B o a r d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? Page 58 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. W e ’v e l o o k e d a t t h a t r e s o l u ti o n i n s o m e d e t a il in M s S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e b u t I’ d l ik e y o u t o h a v e i t b e f o r e y o u f o r t h i s p u r p o s e , y o u ’ ll f i n d i t in A o f h e r E x h ib i t w h ic h is D D 1 a n d y o u ’l l fi n d i t a t p a g e 2 8 9 o f t h a t b u n d le . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I ’ m t h e r e C h a ir. Is t h a t a n e x c e r p t o f t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e m e e ti n g h e l d o n 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 o f w h ic h y o u a r e fa m i li a r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir I’ m f a m ili a r. A n d y o u ’ ll s e e in C o n t h a t p a g e is w h e r e t h e d e c is i o n in r e l a ti o n t o t h e Fr e e S t a te D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n is c o n ta in e d a n d w h a t I r e a d i t a s , m a n d a ti n g y o u a n d t h e a c t in g C E O t o d o , I to u r g e n tl y ta k e t h e n e c e s s a r y s t e p s t o n e g o ti a te , c o n c lu d e , e x e c u te a n d s i g n a n d / o r d i s p a tc h a l l d o c u m e n ts a n d n o ti c e s r e l a te d t o t h e 1 4 b i ll io n lo a n o ff e r r e c e iv e d f r o m a p o t e n t i a l f u n d e r, Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n a s p e r th e l e t t e r c ir c u la t e d a t t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g , y o u s e e t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s C h a ir. D o y o u s t a n d b y t h e d e c is i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n b y t h e B o a r d o n t h a t d a y t o m a n d a te y o u t o c o n c lu d e th a t tr a n s a c ti o n w i t h Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Please guide me, you want me to perhaps fir s t s u b s ta n ti a t e w h y I s ta n d b y I t th e n a n d w h y n o w I ’v e c h a n g e d my mind …(intervention). A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I’ m in t e r e s t e d in y o u r c u r r e n t p o s it i o n a n d Page 59 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w e ’l l g o in t o g r e a t d e t a i l i n th e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a t th e ti m e , w h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f , b u t y o u r c u r r e n t v ie w. W h a t I’ m in t e r e s t e d i n t h e m o m e n t , b e c a u s e i t w il l a s s is t m e in th e e v i d e n c e , i f y o u s ta n d b y c e r t a i n d e c is io n s e v e n n o w, t h e n i t m a y b e necessary to probe them in more detail, if now you regard them as b e i n g ir r e g u la r o r th e p r o d u c t – t o u s e s o m e o f t h e w o r d s in y o u r s t a te m e n t a b ig g e r s c h e m e o r a s c a n d a lo u s tr a n s a c ti o n , t h a t w i ll a s s is t m e in n a v ig a ti n g w h e r e t o fo c u s i n t h e e v id e n c e . S o in s o f a r a s t h i s d e c is i o n t o m a n d a te y o u t o c o n c l u d e t h is tr a n s a c t i o n w i t h Fr e e S t a te 10 D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n , d o y o u r e g a r d – d o y o u s ta n d b y i t to d a y ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: The answer would be yes and no, when I’m s a y in g y e s , i f th e c o m p a n y c o n ti n u e d w i t h t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a t t h e ti m e , t h e c o m p a n y w a s g o i n g t o s a v e o n in t e r e s t b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e t h e c o m p a n y w a s p a y i n g a n i n t e r e s t o f 1 .2 b i l li o n p e r y e a r j u s t to s e r v ic e t h e d e b t a n d n o t t o p a y t h e c a p i ta l p o r ti o n . S o i f y o u l o o k a t t h e te r m s h e e t t h a t w a s s u b m i t te d b y G r is s a g , l o o k i n g a t t h a t I w o u ld s a y i t w o u ld h a v e s a v e d t h e c o m p a n y b u t l o o k in g in d e ta il n o w a f t e r th e in q u ir y a t th e l e t t e r t h a t I r e c e i v e d f r o m F D C a n d a n a ly s i n g i t i n d e t a i l , it l o o k e d lik e t h e r e w e r e p r e v i o u s d is c u s s i o n s th a t w e r e d o n e b y F D C to 20 t h e e x te n t t h a t , a lr e a d y t h e y h a d a p o t e n ti a l i n v e s t o r, f o r e i g n in v e s t o r w h ic h a t t h e ti m e I d id n o t r e a d in d e t a i l b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d a ls o u n d e r s t a n d th a t I w a s t h r e e d a y s o r f o u r d a y s i n t h e o ffi c e . To d a y I w o u ld s a y – th e r e a s o n w h y I a m s a y i n g t h e r e w a s a b i g g e r s c h e m e i t lo o k s lik e th e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s b e f o r e t h e d is c u s s i o n . By s a y i n g t h a t it m e a n s , a lr e a d y t h e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s to fo r m w i th F D C , a j o in t Page 60 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 v e n tu r e , th e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n a l r e a d y w it h a p o t e n t ia l fu n d e r o f t h a t s o – w h ic h h a p p e n s to b e th e s a m e f u n d e r o f S e a C r e s t . S o to d a y t h e n I’ m n o t s t a n d i n g n e x t t o i t I ’ m s a y in g th e r e w e r e b ig g e r s c h e m e s a n d p e r h a p s t h e r e w e r e p e o p le w h o s t o o d t o b e n e fi t fr o m t h e tr a n s a c ti o n u s i n g m e to c o n c lu d e t h e t r a n s a c t io n . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l m a y b e l e t’s g e t t h is c la r i fi e d . I th in k w h a t Ms H o f m e y r i s – w h a t h e r q u e s t io n is a i m e d a t is t w o t h in g s , t h e f ir s t is w h e t h e r k n o w i n g w h a t y o u k n o w t o d a y a b o u t t h a t d e c is i o n t h a t w a s m a d e b y th e B o a r d d o y o u s u p p o r t i t, t h e d e c is i o n a n d in a n s w e r in g 10 t h a t q u e s ti o n y o u m a y h a v e r e g a r d t o a n u m b e r o f t h in g s b u t p a r t o f i t in c l u d e s p r o c e s s e s th a t m a y h a v e b e e n f o l lo w e d o n o r n o t fo ll o w e d o r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n f o ll o w e d . S o i f y o u lo o k a t t h a t d e c i s i o n , h o w i t w a s t a k e n a n d e v e r y th i n g th a t y o u k n o w t o d a y, d o y o u s u p p o r t t h a t – d o y o u s a y it w a s th e c o r r e c t d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s ta k e n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir i t w a s n o t th e c o r r e c t d e c is i o n , i t w a s n o t i n th e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. If w e t h e n g o t o th e d e c is io n t o a p p o i n t B n P C a p i t a l a s a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r, a s I h a v e it fr o m y o u r s t a te m e n t , y o u d o s u p p o r t t h a t d e c i s i o n I ta k e t h a t fr o m – a t p a g e 7 20 paragraph 23. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 7? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 7 in d e e d C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 2 3 . Ye s I ’ m th e r e C h a ir. I w o u l d li k e t o c l a r i fy t h o u g h b e c a u s e w h a t y o u s a y h e r e i n th is p a r t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e d e c i s i o n o n th e Page 61 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r a n d y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e fa c t t h a t th e r e w a s a d e c is i o n to a p p o in t a tr a n s a c ti o n advisor and then a la t e r i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h a t d e c is io n a n d y o u s a y in t h e t h ir d l in e a t paragraph 23, “ I d i d n o t f o r e s e e a n y th i n g u n t o w a r d w h e n I i m p l e m e n te d th e B o a r d ’s i n s tr u c t io n b e c a u s e b a s e d o n t h e h is t o r ic a l i n f o r m a t io n m y p r e d e c e s s o r u s e d t o t a k e i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e B o a r d a n d s u b m i t a m o ti v a t io n a f t e r w a r d s ’ , I’ m g o in g t o e x p l o r e t h a t f u r t h e r w i t h y o u in y o u r e v id e n c e b u t 10 in t h e p a r t t h a t w e ’ r e a t , a t t h e m o m e n t w h e r e I’ m s i m p l y a s k i n g y o u a s t h e C h a i r h a s i n d ic a te d t o y o u to te ll u s w h e t h e r t o d a y, k n o w i n g a ll y o u k n o w, y o u s ti ll s u p p o r t th a t d e c is io n , w h a t is y o u r a n s w e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I s t il l s u p p o r t t h e d e c is i o n C h a ir. T h a n k y o u , t h e n e x t o n e i s t h e d e c is io n t o e x t e n d th e s c o p e o f B n P C a p i ta l fr o m t h a t o f tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r to s o u r c e r o f f u n d s , k n o w i n g w h a t y o u k n o w n o w, d o y o u s u p p o r t t h a t d e c is i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 N o C h a ir, I d o n ’ t s u p p o r t i t . T h e n th e r e i s th e r e q u e s t f o r th e a p p r o v a l o f a c a n c e l la t io n f e e t o b e p a id to B n P C a p it a l p u r s u a n t to th a t e x t e n d e d s c o p e d o y o u t o d a y, s u p p o r t t h a t d e c i s i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I n e v e r s u p p o r t e d it C h a ir. W e w i ll h a v e t o g o t o y o u r … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . I g u e s s t h a t m e a n s , t h e r e f o r e y o u s t ill d o n ’ t s u p p o r t it ? Page 62 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w ill p ic k t h a t u p M s N h a n ts i i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t y o u w r o t e t o th e B o a r d to s u p p o r t th e p a y m e n t o f t h a t c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . C h a ir t h a t g iv e s m e a g o o d b a c k g r o u n d fo r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e e v i d e n c e . I s e e w e ’r e ju s t b e fo r e t h e t e a b r e a k b u t i f it ’s a p p r o p r i a te p o s s i b ly w e ta k e i t n o w a n d th e n w e can return. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s l e t ’s t a k e i t n o w a n d – w e ’ ll t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k and resume at half past eleven. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: make it on time. B o t h t h is m o r n i n g a n d j u s t n o w I h a v e s t r u g g l e d to W e – b e c a u s e o f m e e t in g s b u t w e w il l tr y a n d improve. Let us proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i a s I in d i c a t e d b e f o r e th e b r e a k I w o u ld l ik e t o n o w g o in t o s o m e d e t a i l in r e l a t i o n to t h e s e v a r i o u s 20 d e c is i o n s t h a t I h a v e g o t y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r c u r r e n t p o s i ti o n o n t h e m I w o u l d l ik e to s ta r t w i t h t h e d e c is i o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e lo p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n a t t h e 3 D e c e m b e r b o a r d m e e ti n g a n d w e lo o k e d a m o m e n t a g o a t th e a c tu a l r e s o l u ti o n w h i c h y o u fo u n d in M s S ti m p e l ’s fi l e A a t p a g e 2 8 9 . I w o u ld lik e u s ju s t t o l o o k a t i t f o r a m o m e n t i f w e m a y ? T h a t i s 2 8 9 o f E x h i b it Page 63 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 D D 1 [ a ]. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s S t i m p e l – a p o l o g i e s M s N h a n ts i I w o u ld l ik e t o ju s t u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s to o d t h i s r e s o lu t io n i n t h e s a m e w a y t h a t i n t h e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e l a s t w e e k it h a d b e e n u n d e r s t o o d b y Ms S t i m p e l . A t C w h a t is r e c o r d e d t h e r e is th a t y o u a n d t h e a c ti n g C E O m u s t u r g e n t ly t a k e s t e p s t o n e g o t ia t e , c o n c lu d e , e x e c u te , s i g n a n d o r d is p a tc h a ll d o c u m e n ts a n d n o tic e s r e l a te d t o t h e 1 4 b i ll io n l o a n o ffe r 10 r e c e iv e d fr o m a p o t e n t ia l fu n d e r Fr e e S t a te Development C o r p o r a ti o n a s p e r t h e l e t te r c i r c u l a te d . W h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o r e q u ir e o f y o u ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I u n d e r s t o o d th a t a s a m a n d a t e t h a t w e w e r e g iv e n b y t h e b o a r d b a s e d o n th e l e t te r t h a t w a s c ir c u l a t e d o n t h a t d a y a l lo w m e t o g iv e a b i t o f b a c k g r o u n d a s w e l l. W h e n I jo in e d S A A o n t h e 2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 o n t h e 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 w h ic h i s li t e r a l ly fo u r d a y s a ft e r I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m M r M o y o – M r S h e p h e r d M o y o w h o is th e C F O a t F D C w h o fi r s t c o n g r a tu l a t e d m e o n t h e m o v e t h a t I m a d e t o S A A a n d s e c o n d l y a s k e d m e i f S A A s ti ll n e e d s t h e f u n d i n g . Fi r s tl y I w o u ld l ik e t o d e c l a r e w h i c h I d i d o n m y s t a te m e n t 20 t h a t I d id a r ti c l e s , I s e r v e d a r ti c l e s a t S iz w e N ts a lu b a G e b o d o w i t h S h e p h e r d M o y o w e w e r e b o t h a u d it m a n a g e r s , s e n io r a u d i t m a n a g e r s . B y th e ti m e h e l e f t h e w a s t h e s e n i o r a u d i t m a n a g e r, I w a s t h e a u d i t p a r t n e r. S o I s a w n o th i n g u n t o w a r d h i m 1 . C o n g r a tu la t in g m e o n t h e m o v e 2 . A s k in g if S A A s ti ll n e e d s fu n d i n g b e c a u s e i t w a s o n th e p u b li c Page 64 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 domain that SAA at some point there was a tender out there that n e e d e d f u n d i n g fo r S A A . S o I r e s p o n d e d t o s a y y e s S A A is s t il l in n e e d o f fu n d i n g . H e t o l d m e t h a t t h e y c a n a s s is t . S o I a s k e d , h o w c a n t h e y a s s is t? He said they can … 1. I asked how can you assist because my understanding is you r e c e i v e g r a n t fr o m g o v e r n m e n t . 2 . D o y o u h a v e a m a n d a te f o r th a t ? H e r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g y e s t h e y a r e i n t a lk s w i th f o r e i g n i n v e s to r a n d 10 t h e ir FD C A c t a l l o w s t h e m t o d o t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s o I r e q u e s t e d h i m to p u t i t i n w r i t in g a n d I t h e n t o ld h i m t h a t b e c a u s e i t w a s th e 1 s t I s a i d to h i m , p u t i t i n w r i ti n g t h e r e i s a b o a r d m e e ti n g o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r I w i ll t h e n d is c u s s i t w i t h th e b o a r d w h i c h h e d id o n t h e 2 n d o f … - t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y I t h e n r e c e i v e d a l e tt e r fr o m M r M o y o . I am not sure w h ic h p a g e C h a ir it is o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a p a g e b a c k . I f y o u j u s t g o b a c k i n Ms S t i m p e l ’s b u n d l e y o u w il l f in d i t t h e r e a t p a g e 2 8 7 , i s t h a t t h e l e t t e r y o u a r e r e f e r r in g to ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: 20 Ye s C h a ir. T h i s is t h e l e t te r t h a t I a m r e fe r r i n g t o . B a s ic a l ly i t – i t s a y s w h a t w e s a i d o n t h e c a ll b e c a u s e I a s k e d h i m t o p u t i t i n w r i ti n g . I a m n o t s u r e i f I s h o u l d r e a d i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e s e e n it b e fo r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is – C h a ir a s l o n g a s y o u a r e h a p p y w i t h t h a t? Page 65 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o w e h a v e s e e n i t . W e h a v e r e a d i t j a . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o I t h e n o n t h e – o n th e 2 n d – o n th e 1 s t a ft e r I r e c e i v e d a c a ll o n t h e f o l lo w in g d a y – m o r n i n g I u p d a te d t h e a c ti n g C E O M r Z w a n e a n d I r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r. I s h a r e d t h e le t t e r. I m a d e a c o p y. I s h a r e d i t w i t h h i m . H e a ls o a g r e e d t h a t l e t u s t a k e it to t h e b o a r d th e fo ll o w i n g d a y a n d t h e p r o c e s s t o d o th a t is t o g iv e t h e s u b m is s io n to t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y w h i c h w e d i d . S h e m a d e c o p i e s a n d o n t h e d a y t h e le t t e r w a s c i r c u l a te d . T h e r e w e r e m a n y i t e ms o n t h e – 10 on the agenda i te m but the l e tt e r was discussed a f te r the d e li b e r a t i o n s – l o n g d e li b e r a t i o n s th a t w e r e d o n e o n th e s u b m is s i o n t h a t w a s m a d e o n t h e d a y. T h e r e w a s a s u b m is s io n t h a t w a s d a te d – s ig n e d 2 7 N o v e m b e r. I t h i n k it w a s w r i t t e n 2 0 – o n t h e 2 6 N o v e m b e r r e c o m m e n d e d a c o m p a n y c a l le d S e a c r e s t b y M s S ti m p e l . S o t h e – a f te r t h e lo n g d e li b e r a t io n s o n th e b o a r d o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t w a s m a d e b y Mr S t i m p e l r e c o m m e n d i n g S e a c r e s t t o b e a p p o in t e d a s a f u n d e r f o r R 1 5 b i ll io n t h e c o m p a n y – th e b o a r d r a i s e d c o n c e r n s o n e w a s t h e r a te th e y fe l t i t is a b i t h ig h w h i c h w a s 5 . 8 % . T h e s e c o n d o n e t h e r e w a s a ls o o n e o f th e a t ta c h m e n ts o n th e d u e d i li g e n c e w h e r e i t w a s s a i d th a t S e a c r e s t r e f u s e d to g i v e in f o r m a ti o n f o r t h e c o m p a n y t o 20 d o th e d u e d i li g e n c e a n d a l s o t h e p r o o f o f f u n d s . T h e y r e f u s e d w i t h th e p r o o f o f fu n d s . S o th e b o a r d a f te r d e l ib e r a te d o n i t fe l t t h a t b e c a u s e – t h e y f e l t t h a t i t l o o k s l ik e i f t h e y d o n o t w a n t t h is d u e d i li g e n c e t o b e d o n e i t w a s a b i t o d d b e c a u s e t h e y f e l t a s i f i t l o o k s l ik e S e a c r e s t w a n ts t o g e t th e le t t e r o f a w a r d a n d g o a n d s o u r c e f u n d i n g p e r h a p s t h e y b e l i e v e d t h a t m a y b e S e a c r e s t d o e s n o t h a v e th e fu n d s . T h e r e f o r e Page 66 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 it w a s d e c li n e d . T h e s e c o n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t w a s o n th a t s u b m is s io n w a s t h e c o n s o r ti u m o f b a n k s . If my memory serves me c o r r e c t I a m n o t t h e r e C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e w h i c h p a g e b u t i t w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g th e c o n s o r ti u m o f b a n k s to t h e t u n e o f 4 . 3 b il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e b o a r d f e l t it d e f e a ts th e p u r p o s e . T h e p u r p o s e o f d e b t c o n s o l i d a t io n w a s t o m a x i mi s e a n d g e t – a n d p a y th e lo w e s t i n te r e s t b e c a u s e o n a v e r a g e a t t h e ti m e t h e – i n fa c t t h e a c c u r a te a m o u n t t h e c o m p a n y w a s p a y i n g a n i n t e r e s t o f 1 . 2 b il li o n s o 10 t h e y fe l t i f t h e y c a n p u t i t o n e h o u s e t h e y c a n p a y a b e t t e r r a te . S o i t w a s t h e n d e c l in e d . T h e c o n s o r t iu m o f l e n d e r s a n d e v e n t h e r a te s t h a t t h e le n d e r s w e r e g iv in g w e r e t h e s a m e r a t e s t h a t t h e y w e r e s e r v i c i n g – t h a t w e r e – th e y s e r v ic i n g t h e c o m p a n y a t. defeats the purpose. S o t h e b o a r d f e l t th a t i t S o t h e y w e n t th r o u g h th e l e tt e r. One of the t h i n g s th a t I n o t ic e d o n t h e b o a r d w h ic h I d i d n o t a t t h e t i m e b e c a u s e I w a s s ti ll n e w s p e c i fi c a ll y th e C h a ir o f t h e b o a r d it l o o k s l ik e s h e k n e w a b o u t t h e - a b o u t t h e F D C a n d w e w e r e t h e n to ld o r m a n d a t e d m y s e l f a n d a c ti n g C E O t o u r g e n t ly f a c il i ta t e a n d r u n w i t h th e l e tt e r a n d d o a ll t h e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n ts b e c a u s e th e c o m p a n y u r g e n t ly n e e d s t h e 20 funds. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u M s N h a n t s i . S o i s i t f a i r to s a y y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t y o u r m a n d a t e w a s t o c o n c l u d e t h e tr a n s a c ti o n w i t h FDC? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . A s m u c h a s t h a t w a s t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n I j o i n e d t h e c o m p a n y I a l w a y s w o r e t h e Page 67 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 h e a d s o f e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e p r o c e s s e s a r e f o l lo w e d . So subsequent to t h is a f t e r th e b o a r d m e e t in g I t h e n c a ll e d – I th i n k it w a s F r i d a y if I a m n o t m i s ta k e n t h e 3 r d b u t I c a ll e d th e le g a l t e a m – t h e p r o c u r e m e n t t e a m w h ic h w a s c o m p r is e d o f M r L e s t e r P e t e r a n d S i la s M a ts a u d z a w h o w a s t h e c o m m o d i ty m a n a g e r a t t h e t i m e . I t h e n to l d t h e m t h a t t h e b o a r d h a s d e c l in e d b a s ic a l ly t h e r e s o lu t io n a s w e h a v e r e a d a n d t h e y – I a s k e d t h e m h o w c a n w e g o a b o u t e n s u r i n g th a t w e i m p l e m e n t t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n b u t t h a t t h e s a m e t i m e w e a r e in li n e w i t h th e s u p p ly c h a in m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s . W e d i s c u s s e d i t fi r s t ly M r P e te r ’s r e s p o n s e w a s 10 m o r e li k e t h is is a b o a r d r e s o lu t io n w e s h o u l d i m p l e m e n t i t b e c a u s e th e b o a r d h a s t a k e n a d e c is i o n . B u t w e d is c u s s e d i t b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a t th e e n d w e a c t i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f th e c o m p a n y a n d M r M a t s a u d z a e v e n w e n t t o h i s o ffic e t o b r i n g t h e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t P o lic y a n d t h e r e w a s a c la u s e t h a t t h e y r e f e r r e d m e t o w h ic h is C l a u s e o n t h e S E M P o li c y. I a m n o t s u r e w h i c h – w h a t p a g e is t h e S E M P o li c y C h a i r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w i ll g e t t h a t f o r y o u n o w. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t i s s o m e w h e r e i n y o u r o w n s ta t e m e n t a s w e l l . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is . CHAIRPERSON: I think you referred to it in your statement. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is o n p a g e 4 a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . P a r a g r a p h ? S o r r y p a g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h is r i g h t a t t h e Page 68 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b e g in n i n g o f y o u r E x h i b i t D D 2 b u n d l e a n d y o u w ill f in d it a t p a g e – paragraph 13 on page 4. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A lr ig h t l e t m e g o t h e r e . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s th e S C M P o l ic y o f 2 0 11 h a d C h a p t e r 1 4 . 4 o n th e a lt e r n a tiv e o ff e r s a n d th e s u b c l a u s e 1 4 . 4 . 1 s t ip u l a t e d a s f o l lo w s : “ R e g a r d l e s s o f w h e th e r t h e b i d d e r s s u b m i ts a n o ffe r c o n fo r m i n g s t r ic t ly t o t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n a l t e r n a t iv e o ffe r s m a y b e c o n s id e r e d a n d a c c e p t e d p r o v i d e d t h a t t h e o th e r b i d d e r s a r e n o t p r e j u d ic e d . ” 10 S o t h is is th e c la u s e th a t w e u s e d t o e n s u r e t h a t w e a r e in li n e w i th t h e S C M P o li c y b e c a u s e th e o t h e r b id d e r s a r e n o t p r e ju d i c e d i n th is c a s e b e c a u s e t h e b o a r d a lr e a d y d e c l in e d S e a c r e s t t h a t w a s r e c o m m e n d e d . T h e b o a r d a lr e a d y d e c li n e d th e c o n s o r t i u m o f t h e b a n k s . S o th e S C M P o lic y o f S A A a ll o w e d t h a t w e c a n u s e th is p a r a g r a p h – s o r r y t h is c la u s e t o e n s u r e t h a t w e c o m p ly w i th t h e S C M P o l ic y a n d a ls o w e d o w h a t i s n e e d e d b y t h e b o a r d , t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n . A f t e r t h a t m e e t in g f o ll o w i n g d a y I th e n c a l l e d t h e l e g a l te a m – th e tr e a s u r y t e a m w h ic h is m a d e u p o f M r S t i m p e l a n d M ik e – M r M ic h a e l K l e i n . I t h e n e x p l a in w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h e b o a r d th a t t h e b o a r d d e c li n e d S e a c r e s t a n d th e 20 c o n s o r ti u m o f t h e l e n d e r s a n d t h e b o a r d t h e n m a n d a te d my s e l f a n d th e a c ti n g C E to e n g a g e u r g e n t ly a n d c o n c l u d e w i t h t h e FD C . A n d th e n I t o l d t h e m t h a t I e n g a g e d w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t t e a m a n d t h e y a d v is e d t h a t it is a l l o w e d i n te r ms o f th e S C M P o l ic y. I r e c a l l th a t M r Kl e in e v e n w a n t e d a c o p y o f t h e – o f th e s p e c i f ic c l a u s e o f S C M a n d h e m a d e a c o p y. In th e d is c u s s i o n M s S ti m p e l t h e n w a s s h o u ti n g i f I a m a ll o w e d Page 69 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t o u s e t h a t n a m e , s h o u ti n g , a n d s a y i n g t h is is n o t a l l o w e d . Th e F D C w a s n o t i n t h e li s t o f t h e b i d d e r s t h a t b i d d e d a n d th is is a g a in s t t h e p o li c y a n d w h y d i d I g o to p r o c u r e m e n t fo r f u n d i n g , fu n d i n g is e x c lu d e d fr o m t h e p o li c y. I t is g u id e d b y I th i n k h e s a i d b y s o m e – t h e f in a n c i a l r is k fr a m e w o r k . S o w e t h e n d is c u s s e d t h a t a n d t h e n I w a n te d t o u n d e r s t a n d f r o m h e r w h e r e is t h e e x c l u s i o n o n t h e S C M P o li c y ? W h e r e is it e x c lu d e d th a t t h e f u n d i n g is n o t p a r t o f th e S C M ? I h a d a r e a s o n t o a s k th a t q u e s t i o n . I t is b e c a u s e w h e n w e a t te n d e d th e b o a r d m e e ti n g o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s t o ld m e t h a t in t h e p a s t 10 t h e y m a d e in f a c t I a ls o r e a d i t o n t h e p a c k . T h e y m a d e t h e tr e a s u r y d e p a r t m e n t t o g e t h e r w i th m y p r e d e c e s s o r t o c a n c e l t h e t e n d e r t h a t w a s d o n e b a s e d o n th e fi n a n c i a l r is k fr a m e w o r k b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t fo ll o w i n g t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d i t w a s n o t c o m p e ti t iv e . I t w a s n o t f a ir a n d it w a s n o t t r a n s p a r e n t . So she could not answer me where the e x c lu s i o n is b u t s h e k e p t o n s a y in g t h a t th e b o a r d w a s w r o n g i n e x c lu d in g – in d e c l in in g s p e c i f ic a l ly S e a c r e s t b e c a u s e th e c o m p a n y n e e d s f u n d i n g w h ic h I a g r e e d th a t th e c o m p a n y n e e d s fu n d i n g b u t t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t I r a is e d to h e r w a s t h e b o a r d h a d r e a s o n s . S h e w a n t e d t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n w h ic h I s a id s h e c a n g e t fr o m c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y 20 a n d t h e n I e x p la i n e d t h a t t h e b o a r d h a d r e a s o n s w h y t h e y d e c li n e d a t t h e ti m e b e c a u s e t h e c o m p a n y r e f u s e d th e d u e d i li g e n c e . T h e c o m p a n y d i d n o t w a n t to s h o w th e p r o o f o f f u n d s . S o I th e n e x p l a i n e d t o t h e m a n d I g a v e t h e m t h e c o p y a n d th e n t h e y – t h e m e e t i n g w a s e n d e d a t t h e ti m e . B u t w e – t h e y t h e n u p d a te d m e b e c a u s e I s a id t h is is t h e r e s o l u ti o n t h a t w e n e e d to i m p le m e n t . W e t h e n d e c id e d t o g e t h e r w i t h Page 70 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r o c u r e m e n t a n d tr e a s u r y te a m t h a t t h e b e s t w a y t o d o i t is t o s e n d t h e t e r m – a r e y o u s to p p i n g m e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n o t a t a l l s o r r y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h s o r r y. I s t o s e n d t h e t e m p l a t e o f th e t e r m s h e e t a n d a ls o t o s e n d t h e R F P th a t w a s s e n t t o t h e o t h e r b id d e r s , t o F D C . Th e y r e q u e s t e d m e fo r c o n ta c t d e t a i ls w h i c h I g a v e M ic h a e l Kl e in – Mr K l e i n a n d Ms S t i m p e l t h e c o n t a c t d e ta ils , t h e c e ll n u m b e r o f M r Shepherd Moyo and the – they were sent. And we – Mr Shepherd Moyo w e r e g i v e n – w a s g iv e n a d e a d li n e o f 2 4 D e c e m b e r t o c o m p le t e t h e 10 t e r m s h e e t w h ic h h e d i d . Th e t e r m s h e e t w a s r e c e i v e d b a c k fr o m F D C o n t h e 2 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d i t w a s e v a l u a te d e a r ly i n 2 0 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A p o l o g i e s p l e a s e c o n t in u e i f t h e r e is m o r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . O n e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t I h i g h li g h te d – t h a t I n o t ic e d o n t h e t e r m s h e e t w h a t – w a s – i t is c o m i n g fr o m th e s a m e – t h e f u n d e r is t h e s a m e G r is s a g t h a t w a s – th a t w a s a p r o p o s a l for Seacrest. S e a c r e s t a s w e l l w h e n i t w a s r e c o m m e n d e d t h e fu n d e r w a s G r is s a g e A G P T Y LT D . N o w w i th F D C a s w e l l i t w a s G r is s a g A G P T Y LT D . S o I r e m e m b e r o n e d a y w h e n M s S t i m p e l a g a i n c a m e t o m y 20 o ffic e s til l s h o u t i n g t h a t th e b o a r d t o o k a w r o n g d e c i s i o n b e c a u s e n o w t h e c o m p a n y is g o i n g t o b e i n d e f a u l t. She does not understand how t h e b o a r d w a s m e d d li n g w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s t h e y s h o u l d have accepted and approved Seacrest. S o o n e q u e s t io n t h a t I a s k e d M s S t i m p e l w a s , i f y o u l o o k a t th e r a t e s t h a t t h e s a m e fu n d e r i s g iv in g w h e n it w a s S e a c r e s t i t w a s 5 . 8 % t h e i n te r e s t r a t e fi x e d . W h e n i t w a s Page 71 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 F D C t h e in t e r e s t r a t e w a s s t il l f ix e d b u t a t 4 % . S o I a s k e d M s S t i m p e l d i d s h e c o n s i d e r th e – I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t it w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e – F D C w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e b i d d e r s th a t s u b m it t e d a n d f o l lo w e d t h e p r o c e s s . A s m u c h a s n o w i t i s a c c o m m o d a te d o n S C M b u t d id h e c o n s id e r t h a t s h o u l d th e c o m p a n y h a v e ta k e n S e a c r e s t t h e c o m p a n y w a s g o i n g t o p a y 1 .8 % m o r e th a n i f i t t a k e s F D C a n d 1 . 8 % o f 1 5 b il li o n is a b o u t R 2 7 0 m il li o n . S o w e – t h a t i s w h y I l o o k e d a t - b e c a u s e C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e t o s a y a t t h e t i m e t h a t I w a s r u n n i n g t h e tr a n s a c t io n I t h i n k t h e e n d r e s u l ts w a s w h a t I h a d i n m i n d w a s t h e r e a r e l o a n s t h a t a r e m a tu r i n g a n d w e 10 h a d w e e k l y m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e b a n k s t o g e th e r w it h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d o n a l l t h o s e m e e ti n g s t h a t b a n k s b o t h lo c a l a n d i n te r n a ti o n a l t h e y e x p r e s s e d th e i r a n x i e t y. T h e y w a n t e d t h e ir e x p o s u r e t o b e r e d u c e d t o t h e e x te n t t h a t t h e y e v e n w r o t e t h e D G o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y w a n t in g – b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d a t t h e t i m e t h e y w e r e r a is i n g t w o is s u e s . Th e y w e r e r a i s i n g t h e fa c t t h a t t h e c o m p a n y – t h e c o m p a n y ’s p e r f o r m a n c e is d e t e r io r a ti n g a n d to th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y fe e l th a t a r e f u n d i n g th e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s i n e s s – th e d a y t o d a y o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s i n e s s a n d t h e y w e r e s a y i n g it is n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e l ik e t h a t . A n d t h e y w e r e tr u e b e c a u s e i f y o u g o a n d lo a n m o n e y ju s t t o – t o p a y s a l a r ie s i t is n o t 20 s u s t a i n a b l e . S o t h e y – t h e y e v e n s a id to t h e l e t te r to N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y in th e m e e ti n g s t h e y a r e n o w f e e li n g a s i f th e y a r e t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s o f S A A . T h e y w a n t s h a r e h o l d e r t o c o m e to t h e p a r ty. T h e s e c o n d is s u e t h a t th e y r a is e d w a s a r o u n d g o v e r n a n c e w h e r e th e y s a id t h e r e a r e s o m a n y p e o p l e i n a c ti n g p o s it i o n s b a s ic a l l y t h e y f e lt t h a t t h e r e is n o a c c o u n t a b i li ty b e c a u s e w h e n y o u a r e a c ti n g y o u a r e a c ti n g – th e r e i s n o Page 72 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e a l ly a c c o u n ta b i li t y. Th e t h i r d c o n c e r n t h a t t h e b a n k s c o n s i s t e n tl y r a i s e d a t t h e t i m e w a s t h e – th e – I u s e d t o s a y t h e t h r e e m e n b o a r d b u t t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s t h e y w e r e – t h e r e w e r e o n ly t h r e e b o a r d m e m b e r s s o t h e y f e l t if t h e b o a r d c o u ld b e b e e f e d u p t h e y b e l ie v e d t h a t th e n i n t e r m s o f g o v e r n a n c e t h a t w o u ld b e d o n e . S o a t t h e b a c k o f m y m i n d I h e a r d th a t a n d t h e b a n k s a t t h e t i m e th e y w e r e n o t – t h e y to l d u s t h a t t h e y w il l n e v e r – u n t il a ll t h e s e a r e r e s o lv e d i n c l u d in g c a p i t a l is a ti o n fr o m t h e s h a r e h o ld e r t o S A A t h e y w il l n o t e x t e n d o r r o ll o v e r th e l o a n s b e y o n d th r e e m o n t h s . 10 A n d i n t h e t h r e e m o n th s t h a t t h e y w e r e g i v i n g t h e c o m p a n y C h a ir e v e r y – e v e r y e x p ir y o f t h r e e m o n t h s t h e y w e r e in c l u d i n g a m a r g i n m e a n i n g t h e i n t e r e s t r a te w a s i n c r e a s i n g . So the in t e r e s t r a t e w a s i n c r e a s i n g , t h e in t e r e s t r a te w a s in c r e a s i n g n o w to b e b e y o n d t h e 1 . 2 s o t h e r e w o u ld b e p o i n t w h e r e t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d n o t e v e n b e i n a p o s i ti o n to s e r v ic e t h e d e b t . S o a t th e b a c k o f m y m in d being appointed as an interim CFO I had that in mind that one of my d u t ie s w a s t o p a y d e b t s a s a n d w h e n t h e y a r e d u e . S o w e h a d t h is 1 . 2 b i ll io n th a t is s e r v ic i n g t h e d e b t . S o w h e n I l o o k e d o n e t h in g th a t c a u g h t my e y e o n th e tw o b e f o r e I e v e n a s k e d w h o is G r is s a g o n e t h i n g t h a t c a u g h t m y e y e w a s th e d i ff e r e n c e o n t h e in t e r e s t r a t e s fr o m t h e 20 s a m e f u n d e r. 1. I f w e to o k 5 . 8 % a n d th e o t h e r o n e i s 4 % a n d t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d h a v e b e e n – w o u l d h a v e p a id R 2 7 0 m il li o n . S o a t t h e ti m e t h o s e w e r e th e t h i n g s th a t I w a s l o o k i n g a t . In f a c t I e v e n d i d a c a lc u l a ti o n w h ic h I p r e s e n t e d t o t h e – t o t h e b o a r d w h e r e h i g h l e v e l I t h e n lo o k e d a t t h e r a t e s th a t w e r e – t h e c o m p a n y w a s Page 73 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c u r r e n tly p a y i n g a n d n o w i f w e p a y 4 % I t h i n k th e i n t e r e s t o n s a v i n g w a s R 7 0 0 m i ll io n s o t h a t w a s th e u lt i m a t e g o a l to s a y i f w e d o t h i s a ls o if w e d o i t w it h in th e a m b i t o f la w to g e t h e r i n li n e w i t h t h e S C M P o li c y t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d p a y 5 0 0 m i l li o n o n i n t e r e s t a n d s a v e 7 0 0 m il li o n o n in t e r e s t C h a ir. S o t h e – w e r e c e iv e d t h e t e r m s h e e t . T h e tr e a s u r y t e a m , t h e c o m m i t t e e t h e n e v a l u a te d b e t w e e n n o w t h e p r e f e r r e d b id d e r w h ic h is S e a c r e s t a n d F D C . F D C w a s t h e n w a r n e d b e c a u s e o f t h e r a te . I r e c a ll I h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e FR S t e a m w h e r e t h e y t o l d m e n o w t h i s is i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i d o y o u mi n d i f w e p a u s e t h e r e j u s t for a moment. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e r e is a n e x tr e m e a m o u n t t h a t y o u have covered. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n r e la t io n t o ju s t a c r is p q u e s ti o n i n i t ia ll y a n d I w o u ld lik e to u n p a c k i t b e f o r e w e g e t to J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 R i g h t. L e t u s s t a r t w i th P r o c u r e m e n t P o li c y n e e d i n g t o b e f o l lo w e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u g a v e u s b a c k g r o u n d a s to th e b o a r d ’s v i e w t h a t it s h o u l d b e fo ll o w e d n o t w it h s t a n d in g M s S t i m p e l ’s v i e w t h a t f u n d i n g m ig h t h a v e fe ll o u ts i d e i t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . Page 74 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d o I h a v e i t th a t y o u r e g a r d i t a s a p p ly i n g t o t h is p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o r r y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r e g a r d e d t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P o lic y a s a p p li c a b le . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To th e s o u r c in g o f f u n d s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r. Yo u m e n t io n e d t h a t e a r li e r o n w h a te v e r h a p p e n e d i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 y o u w e r e s t il l q u i te n e w a t S A A a n d s o o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I ju s t w a n t t o a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n . A t t h a t ti m e h o w lo n g h a d y o u b e e n a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Fo r – t h a t 2 0 1 5 – I q u a li f ie d i n 2 0 0 7 C h a i r so… C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o i n 2 0 1 5 … 20 CHAIRPERSON: O h s o i t i s fr o m 2 0 0 7 a b o u t w h a t – s e v e n t o e ig h t years? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: E i g h t y e a r s . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S e v e n – e ig h t y e a r s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d d u r in g m o s t o f t h o s e y e a r s y o u w e r e a t S i z w e Page 75 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 N th a l u b a G e b o d o ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t i s f i n e . I j u s t w a n t e d t o g e t th a t c o n t e x t . Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u i n d ic a te d in y o u r a n s w e r t h a t y o u w e r e a d v is e d b y t h e c o m m o d i ty m a n a g e r a n d L e s te r – A d v o c a t e L e s t e r P e t e r th a t y o u c o u l d u s e C l a u s e 1 4 . 4 .1 o f t h e S u p p l y C h a in M a n a g e m e n t P o li c y f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f n o w i m p le m e n t in g t h e in s t r u c t i o n t h a t y o u h a d r e c e iv e d f r o m t h e b o a r d o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r t o 10 c o n c l u d e t h e t r a n s a c t io n w i t h F D C , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e t o ju s t d e b a te t h a t c l a u s e w i t h y o u . I k n o w t h a t y o u a r e n o t a l a w y e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I n e e d t o p u t t o y o u t h a t t h e r e is a n e n tir e ly d i ff e r e n t in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h a t c la u s e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w o u l d n o t h a v e s u p p o r te d th e e x t e n s io n t o F D C a t t h a t p o i n t. 20 Yo u w i ll fi n d th e f u l l S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P o lic y i n M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e b u t I a m h a p p y t o w o r k o ff t h e e x c e r p t t h a t y o u h a v e in y o u r s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o t h i n g e ls e i n t h a t c la u s e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll a s I s a y t h a t I r e a l is e a c t u a ll y l o c a ti n g i t in t h e p o li c y i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t . Page 76 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s g o t o i t . I t i s in M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d le a n d i t is C . I t is E x h i b i t D D 1 b u t Fi l e C o f t h a t b u n d l e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: I s i t i n t h e l e v e r a r c h f i le t h a t h a s g o t M s S t i m p e l ’s s t a te m e n t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is i n d e e d C h a ir b u t in d i v is i o n C o f t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : D iv i s i o n C . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e l a s t o f t h e m . S o y o u w il l b e lo o k i n g f o r 10 D D 1 [c ] . A n d y o u w il l fi n d i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is E x h i b i t D D 1 [ c ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And what page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o o r i e n ta t e e v e r y o n e t h e p o l ic y b e g in s a t 8 6 8 b u t t h e r e l e v a n t c l a u s e is a t p a g e 8 9 4 . CHAIRPERSON: 894? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i j u s t t o o r ie n t a t e y o u t h i s S u p p l y C h a in M a n a g e m e n t P o li c y g o e s th r o u g h – i t tr a p s in e s s e n c e t h e v a r io u s s t a g e s o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , a r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A : Ye s b e c a u s e a s I h a d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l i e r y o u s a i d y o u r r o l e a t S A A w a s to e n s u r e th a t p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s w e r e Page 77 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 f o ll o w e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . S o y o u w o u l d b e f a m i li a r w i t h t h is . I t g o e s t h r o u g h th e v a r i o u s s ta g e s o f t h e e v a l u a t i o n a n d – p r o c e s s f o r b i d s a n d t h e n y o u g e t a t p a g e 8 9 4 to a h e a d i n g c a ll e d E v a l u a t io n P r o c e s s , d o y o u s e e th a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s is e v a lu a ti o n o f b i d s th a t h a v e b e e n r e c e i v e d a n d f o r w h i c h t h e r e a r e r e q u ir e m e n t s in th e p r e c e d i n g c l a u s e s 10 o f t h e S C M P o l ic y, d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So when you get to 14.4 which talks about a l t e r n a t iv e o ff e r s a n d it r e a d s a s f o ll o w s : “ R e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r a b i d d e r s u b m i t s a n o ff e r c o n fo r m i n g s tr i c t ly to th e s p e c i f ic a t i o n a l te r n a te o ffe r s m a y b e c o n s id e r e d a n d a c c e p t e d p r o v i d e d t h a t o th e r b i d d e r s a r e n o t p r e j u d ic e d . ” Now FDC was not a bidder in the prior procurement process that was e m b a r k e d u p o n b y S A A w a s i t? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o i t w a s n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t R F P h a d a n o p e n i n g d a t e a n d a c l o s in g d a t e b y w h ic h b id s h a d t o b e s u b m it t e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . Page 78 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So when I want to suggest to that when this c la u s e o f t h e S C M P o l ic y is t a lk i n g a b o u t a l te r n a ti v e o ff e r s fr o m bidders it is e n v is a g i n g bidders who have c o m p l ie d with the p r o c u r e m e n t r e q u ir e m e n t s w h ic h a r e th a t t h e y b id w it h in t h e t i m e p e r io d a n d t h e n i t m a k e s a v a il a b l e th e p r o s p e c t t h a t y o u c o u ld a c c e p t a n a l t e r n a t iv e o ff e r f r o m s u c h a b i d d e r t h a t d i d n o t c o m p ly w i th t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s o f t h e b id p r o v id e d i t d i d n o t p r e j u d ic e o th e r s , d o y o u s e e t h a t a s a p o s s i b le r e a d i n g o f t h a t c l a u s e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A s y o u h a v e r i g h tf u lly s a id I a m n o t a l a w y e r 10 a n d p r o c u r e m e n t a d v is e d m e th a t t h i s is t h e a l t e r n a t iv e b e c a u s e h o w I r e a d i t a s I h a v e d e c la r e d t h a t I a m a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n ta n t f o r m e i t r e a d s a n d s a y a l te r n a ti v e o ff e r s m a y b e c o n s id e r e d a n d a c c e p t e d p r o v i d e d t h a t t h e o t h e r b id d e r s a r e n o t p r e ju d ic e d . How it was in t e r p r e t e d to m e a n d h o w I u n d e r s ta n d i t i s e v e n i f y o u d i d n o t f o r m p a r t – y o u d i d n o t s u b m it b u t i f i t is a n a lt e r n a tiv e o ffe r i t c a n b e a c c e p te d b y t h e b o a r d p r o v i d e d i t d o e s n o t p r e j u d ic e o t h e r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I understand that that is what you were in f o r m e d o f a t t h e ti m e b u t d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i n t h e s c h e m e o f p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t w h e r e t h e r e a r e o p e n i n g d a t e s a n d c l o s in g d a te s fo r b i d s 20 a n d p e o p l e h a v e t o g e t t h e ir b i d s i n i n t h a t ti m e w h ic h t h e p r e c e d i n g p a r t s o f th is p o li c y r e fe r s t o . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n i t is n o w ta lk in g a b o u t b i d d e r s i t i s t a lk in g a b o u t b id d e r s w h o p a r tic ip a t e i n t h a t p r o c e s s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is n o t c l e a r C h a ir. Page 79 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. W e l l t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: D o – d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i f th e – i f y o u in t e r p r e t t h e c la u s e t o m e a n th a t y o u c o u ld a c c e p t a p r o p o s a l fr o m s o m e b o d y w h o d i d n o t s u b m i t a b i d w i t h i n th e t i m e s ti p u l a te d d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h a t in t e r p r e t a ti o n c o u l d d e fe a t t h e p u r p o s e o f h a v i n g a d a t e w h e n i t is o p e n f o r b i d d e r s t o p u t i n th e ir b i d s a n d a d a t e w h e n e v e r y b o d y i s t o l d is t o l d it is n o w c lo s e d . I f y o u c o m e a f t e r y o u a r e to o l a te . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t - t h a t in t e r p r e t a ti o n c o u ld d e fe a t t h a t e n tir e p u r p o s e ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t a ls o h o w I – I i n te r p r e t e d i t i s n o w th a t p r o c e s s o f b id o p e n i n g a n d c l o s i n g c a m e a n d g o n e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Because the recommendation came to the Board … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d t h e B o a r d t h e n d e c l in e d . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o I th e n – w h e n t h e B o a r d s a i d t h e n e n g a g e w i t h FD C . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H o w I i n te r p r e t e d i t is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is w i t h i n th is a m b i t o f t h i s c l a u s e … Page 80 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t i t i s in li n e . W e c a n g o a n d e n g a g e t h e FDC. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r – y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f i t w a s th a t i t a l lo w s – it a ll o w e d S A A t o t a k e p r o p o s a l s o r b i d s f r o m e v e n p e o p l e w h o d id n o t p u t in b i d s w i t h i n th e ti m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t is – t h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t is h o w I u n d e r s to o d i t C h a i r a n d a ls o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h a t I a ls o c h e c k e d a s – a s I w a s d o in g – I w a s r e a d i n g t h is w a s t o c h e c k w h a t t h e m a n d a te is o r w h a t t h e r o le is of the Board … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O n t h e S C M . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h i c h is c a te r e d o n th e s a m e S C M P o li c y … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S e c t io n 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I f y o u a l lo w m e t o g o th e r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O n p a g e 8 8 1 . Page 81 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Page 881 under 6.2.2. It ta lk s a b o u t th e B o a r d – 6 .2 . 2 .3 i t t a l k s a b o u t : “ T h e B o a r d w i ll a p p r o v e a ll S C M t r a n s a c ti o n s w h ic h a r e in li n e w i t h t h e i r d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r i ty a n d o n r e q u e s t a n y o t h e r tr a n s a c ti o n o f lo w e r v a l u e a s i t d e e m e d fi t . ” S o r e a d i n g t h a t t h e B o a r d w il l – th is tr a n s a c t io n w a s w i t h i n t h e – t h e p u r v i e w o f th e B o a r d a n d n o w i t i s t h e B o a r d t h a t i s a c c e p t in g a n 10 a l t e r n a t iv e o ff e r a n d m y i n t e r p r e ta t io n w a s i t i s i n l in e . ( Ba c k g r o u n d n o i s e ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is m e . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i y o u w i ll a c c e p t t h a t w h a t t h e B o a r d d e c i d e d o n 3 D e c e m b e r w a s n o t to fo ll o w a n y p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . Wa s i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : They ju s t w a n te d you to conclude the tr a n s a c ti o n w it h F D C ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir y o u a r e r i g h t b u t I d e c i d e d t h a t f o r – f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d to a c t in t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y I w o u ld f o l lo w th e p r o c e s s e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t th e a c c o u n t i n g a u th o r i ty o f S A A w a s n o t Page 82 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o n c e r n e d w i t h p r o p e r p r o c e s s b e i n g f o ll o w e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll – I a m s o r r y. Yo u – y o u j u s t a c c e p t e d a p r o p o s i ti o n t h a t th e B o a r d d i d n o t f o l l o w a n y p r o c e s s b u t t h a t m i g h t b e s o b u t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e p o l ic y a l lo w e d t h e B o a r d t o d o e x a c tl y th a t? W a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o r t h a t w a s n o t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A t th e ti m e – 3 D e c e m b e r – I w a s – I w a s n o t 10 a w a r e o f w h a t t h e p o li c y c a te r s a n d w h a t t h e p o lic y d o e s n o t c a te r. H e n c e C h a ir a f te r t h e B o a r d M e e t i n g I c o u l d n o t t e ll th e B o a r d t h a t d o n o t g i v e m e t h is m a n d a t e a n d w e n e e d t o g o – f o l l o w t h e p r o c e s s f ir s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t a f te r t h e m e e ti n g I c a l l e d th e – t h e P r o c u r e m e n t Te a m a n d s a id t h i s i s w h a t th e B o a r d is s a y i n g w e m u s t d o – we must implement. H e n c e I s a id M r – Mr L e s te r P e t e r s a id le t u s ju s t i m p l e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d h a s ta k e n a d e c i s i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t I w a s a d a m a n t a n d I fe l t u n c o m f o r t a b l e C h a ir. I w a n t e d t o f o ll o w t h e – th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h r o u g h o u t th is tr a n s a c t io n I d i d – I d id t h i n g s i n r e v e r s e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 83 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B e c a u s e t h e t r a n s a c ti o n i ts e l f f a ll s w i th i n t h e ambit of the Board. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: They take a decision but I – I went back e v e r y ti m e t o fo ll o w t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w o u l d th e n l ik e t o j u s t p a u s e in r e la t io n t o y o u r e v i d e n c e in – o n S e a c r e s t a n d i t s m a r g i n o n t h e G r is s a g o ff e r b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y i n y o u r e v id e n c e a n d 10 y o u w i ll c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g t h a t y o u a c c e p t t h a t a t t h e ti m e t h a t M s S ti m p e l i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 r e c o m m e n d e d a s H e a d o f Tr e a s u r y a t t h e ti m e t h a t S e a c r e s t b e a p p r o v e d s h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h e u n d e r l y i n g G r is s a g p e r c e n ta g e . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h e n y o u a r e s a y in g u n d e r l y i n g p e r c e n t a g e y o u m e a n s h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h e FD C s a n d th e o th e r s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n o t FD C . I a m s a y i n g i n s o f a r a s th e Seacrest bid was concerned. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e a c r e s t w a s g o i n g t o r e c e iv e i ts f u n d i n g fr o m 20 G r is s a g . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a t t h e ti m e – 2 7 N o v e m b e r – a l l t h a t h a d b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o th e – th o s e e v a l u a t i n g t h e b id s th a t h a d c o m e t h r o u g h w a s a S e a c r e s t b id a t 5 . 8 p e r c e n t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t, y e s . Page 84 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o s h e d i d n o t k n o w a t t h e t i m e w h a t p o r ti o n o f t h e 5 .8 p e r c e n t w a s g o in g to b e p a i d to G r i s s a g . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . I a g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o s h e c o u ld n o t b e c r i t ic is e d fo r b e in g c o m f o r t a b l e w it h 1 . 8 p e r c e n t a t t h e t i m e b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t k n o w a t t h e ti m e t h a t t h e S e a c r e s t m a r g i n w a s 1 .8 p e r c e n t . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Yo u a r e c o r r e c t b y s a y in g a t t h a t ti m e , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e d o n o t s i t t o o f a r fr o m t h e m ic r o p h o n e o r b r i n g 10 it c l o s e r i f y o u w a n t t o s i t b a c k . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w h a te v e r y o u s a y w i ll b e r e c o r d e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i j u s t f o r th e r e c o r d … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: P e r h a p s c a n I e x p a n d w h e n I a m s a y i n g y o u a r e r i g h t w h e n y o u s a y a t th e ti m e ? M s S t i m p e l y e s e v e n my s e l f in – i n January because the reason why I said in January I raised the concern o f th e r a t e i n J a n u a r y a n d i n J a n u a r y i t w a s a f t e r w e r e c e iv e d t h e – t h e FDC term sheet … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d t h e F D C te r m s h e e t h a d 4 p e r c e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d b u t y o u d i d n o t a c t u a ll y k n o w w h a t t h e G r is s a g p e r c e n ta g e w a s o n t h e S e a c r e s t d e a l . D id y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I k n e w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b e c a u s e w h a t y o u h a d s e e n a t th e t i m e - a s Page 85 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 I h a v e i t – is t h e G r is s a g t e r m s h e e t w h e n t h e y w e r e t o j o i n fo r c e s w it h FDC. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W i th Seacrest. On th e – on the m e m o r a n d u m i t s e l f th e o n e t h a t w a s s u b m i t te d t o th e B o a r d t h e r e w a s a t a b le … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H u h - u h . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t w a s s h o w i n g t h e r a t e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d th a t o n l y r e f e r e n c e d S e a c r e s t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d 5 . 8 p e r c e n t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a g r e e w i th y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u lik e t o g o t o i t b e c a u s e th e o n e p o i n t I w o u l d l ik e t o m a k e in r e l a ti o n to it … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a i d t h a t o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s u n c o m f o r ta b le w i t h S e a c r e s t w a s th e r a t e o f 5 . 8 p e r c e n t . D o y o u r e c a l l s a y i n g th a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 T h a t is n o t r e c o r d e d a s o n e o f th e ir g iv e n reasons. Do you accept that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . I t w a s i n t h e d is c u s s i o n i t e m . I n f a c t i t w a s t h e – t h e p o i n t t h a t w a s r a i s e d b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r a i s e w i t h h e r w h e n s h e m a d e t h a t p o i n t t h a t S e a c r e s t w a s t h e c h e a p e s t a t 5 . 8 p e r c e n t o f a l l th e b i d s t h a t h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d ? Page 86 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d i d n o t r a i s e a n y is s u e a t th a t t i m e a s I d i d n o t h a v e t h e i n fo r m a t i o n a t h a n d i n t e r m s o f w h a t i s th e a v e r a g e r a te s t h a t t h e b a n k s a r e c h a n g i n g a t th e ti m e b e c a u s e I w a s o n d a y f o u r of my job. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l i t w a s n o t th e a v e r a g e a t th e ti m e . I t w a s t h e s u b m is s i o n fr o m G r o u p Tr e a s u r y … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To w h ic h y o u m a d e r e fe r e n c e … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D a t e d 2 7 N o v e m b e r t h a t is s e r v e d b e f o r e t h e B o a r d a t th a t m e e ti n g . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e B o a r d p a c k . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o to i t j u s t s o t h a t w e c a n l o o k a c r o s s at that table. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is in M s S t i m p e l ’s E X H I B I T D D 1 A a n d i t – y o u w i ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 2 - 5 - 6 . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: 2-5 …? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Si x . C H A I R P E R S O N : S ix ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . Page 87 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll t h is t a b l e M s N h a n ts i? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e a t t h e p r ic i n g s e c ti o n t o w a r d s th e b o t to m t h e b a s e r a t e o f t h e v a r i o u s b i d d e r s is s e t o u t there. W h e n I s a i d S e a c r e s t w a s th e c h e a p e s t I s h o u ld h a v e b e e n s li g h t ly c l e a r e r. I t i s t h e c h e a p e s t w h o w e r e o ffe r i n g t h e 1 5 b ill i o n w h ic h s e e m e d t o h a v e b e e n a c o n c e r n b o t h f o r y o u a n d t h e B o a r d . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o o f t h e b i d s t h e y r e c e iv e d S e a c r e s t w a s t h e c h e a p e s t . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e r e w a s n o c o n f ir m e d i n te r e s t r a t e t h a t w o u ld b e c h a r g e d b y F D C a t t h e p o i n t i n t i m e t h a t t h e B o a r d d e c id e d to r e j e c t t h e S e a c r e s t o ffe r o r t h e a l t e r n a t iv e o ffe r. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 B u t i t is t h e p o i n t t h a t w a s r a i s e d b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d i n th e m e e ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r s to o d . W h a t I w a s t r y i n g t o c la r i fy w a s w h e t h e r a n y o n e in t e r r o g a t e d i t w h e n it w a s r a i s e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d i d n o t i n te r r o g a t e i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n I w o u l d li k e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A r e – a r e y o u s a y i n g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f Page 88 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h e B o a r d in f o r m e d th e B o a r d M e e ti n g w h a t t h e in t e r e s t r a t e w o u l d b e that FDC would charge? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is n o t w h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h a t I a m s a y i n g is s h e s a id s h e r a is e d a c o n c e r n t h a t t h e 5 .8 m i g h t b e h i g h b u t s h e d i d n o t s a y c o m p a r e d to what. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i b u t y o u w i ll a c c e p t c o m p a r e d to t h e b i d s t h a t w e r e b e f o r e th e m … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s t h e c h e a p e s t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s t h e c h e a p e s t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I th e n w o u ld l ik e t o j u s t d e a l w i t h t h e – t h e f ir s t r e a s o n th a t t h e B o a r d i s r e c o r d e d a s h a v in g g iv e n f o r r e j e c t in g t h e S e a c r e s t b i d . Th a t h a d t o d o - a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d is r e f le c te d i n t h e d o c u m e n ts – w i t h t h e ir u n w il li n g n e s s t o 20 p r o v i d e t h e ir s o u r c e o f f u n d s a n d c o n c e r n s a r o u n d th e D u e D il ig e n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id a n y o n e r a is e w i t h t h e B o a r d t h a t L e g a l h a d lo o k e d in t o t h i s a n d h a d c r e a t e d a s e r ie s o f p r o t e c t io n s f o r S A A i n t h e c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n t t h a t h a d b e e n d e s i g n e d f o r t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t Page 89 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w o u ld b e c o n c l u d e d w i th S e a c r e s t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s d is c u s s e d . It was raised but the B o a r d w a s n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h e f a c t th a t y o u w i ll e n t e r in t o a n a g r e e m e n t y e t t h e c o m p a n y d o n o t k n o w t h e c o m p a n y t h e y a r e r e f u s in g w i t h th e i n f o r m a t io n . H e n c e th e y f e l t t h a t i t l o o k s lik e S e a c r e s t d o e s n o t h a v e m o n e y. They want the letter of award so that they can go and source the funds. S o t h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y w it h t h e c o n d i ti o n p r e c e d e n t b e c a u s e i t w a s th e r e t o s a y S e a c r e s t m u s t b e a c c e p t e d w it h t h e 10 c o n d i ti o n p r e c e d e n t t h a t t h e y s u b m i t t h e – t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n . S o t h e B o a r d w a s n o t c o m f o r t a b le w i t h a p p r o v in g y e t t h e D u e D il i g e n c e is n o t yet completed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Wa s t h e r e a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f S A A L e g a l a t th a t m e e ti n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t r e c a ll C h a ir w h e t h e r h e – t h e l e g a l p e r s o n w a s c a ll e d o r Ac t in g C E O t o o k th i s – d i s c u s s e d t h i s b u t i t w a s not me. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e th e n u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th is d e t e r m i n a t i o n b y th e B o a r d o f th e i n a d e q u a c y o f t h e c o n d it io n s p r e c e d e n t … 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t h a d b e e n p r o p o s e d b y th e l e g a l r e v i e w … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s n o t c a n v a s s e d w i t h a n y o n e fr o m t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h e n y o u a r e s a y i n g w a s n o t c a n v a s s e d y o u Page 90 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 m e a n n o b o d y w a s – w a s c a l le d i n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s n o b o d y w a s c a l l e d i n . T h e A c t i n g C E O t o o k t h e m th r o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Do you have a view on whether those c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a d e q u a t e a n d ju s t b e fo r e y o u a n s w e r t h a t i f I m a y ju s t g i v e t h e b a c k g r o u n d ? W e w e n t t h r o u g h th e m in s o m e d e t a i l w i t h M s S t i m p e l b u t w h a t th e y a p p e a r t o d o is t o a l lo w a n a g r e e m e n t t o b e c o n c l u d e d w i th S A A s u b je c t t o c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n t 10 t h a t w o u l d h a v e r e q u i r e d a l l o f th a t in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h w a s n o t f o r th c o m i n g p r io r t o th a t p o in t to t h e n h a v e to b e p r o v id e d b e f o r e t h e a g r e e m e n t w o u l d t a k e e ff e c t . D id y o u c o n s id e r t h a t a t a l l i n t h e a d v ic e y o u g a v e to t h e B o a r d o n t h e d a y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir fir s t I d i d n o t g i v e a d v i c e t o th e B o a r d o n t h e d a y b u t t h e B o a r d a s I a m s a y in g t h e B o a r d w a s n o t c o m f o r t a b l e s p e c i f ic a l ly a s i t is w r it t e n o n t h e B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n . They were not comfortable because of those two instances and they did not call a Legal person to come in and explain. They declined it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 J u s t o n e m o r e c l a r i f ic a ti o n . D id t h e y r a is e a t a l l t h e c o n d i t io n s p r e c e d e n t th a t h a d b e e n p r o p o s e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t r e c a ll . I th i n k w h a t w a s – w h a t w a s o n d e b a te o n t h e d a y o r w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d is t h e f a c t th a t S e a c r e s t is r e fu s i n g w i t h t h e p r o o f o f fu n d s a n d t h e – t h e r e – t h e r e i s c e r t a i n in f o r m a ti o n f o r L e g a l t o c o m p l e t e t h e D u e D i li g e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware at that time yourself of those Page 91 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n t t h a t h a d b e e n s u g g e s t e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I w a s n o t a w a r e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm and do you – do you know whether the documents s e t ti n g t h e m o u t h a d b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e th e B o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t r e c a l l t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e c a ll ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: D r a f t A g r e e m e n t C h a i r o n th e p a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t w a s s u b m it t e d t o t h e B o a r d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h – o h , a l r i g h t . I n t e r m s o f w h a t t h e B o a r d w a s to l d about Seacrest do you know whether there was a memorandum or a d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s s p e a k in g to S e a c r e s t b i d i n d e t a i l? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e r e w a s a m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And was it a memorandum that you had had a chance t o r e a d b e fo r e y o u c a m e to t h e m e e ti n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u – y o u s a y i t d i d n o t h a v e t h e s e c o n d i t io n s … 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D r a f t A g r e e m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e c e d e n t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir. I f I r e c a ll t h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s e x p l a i n in g t h e p r o c e s s th a t h a s b e e n fo ll o w e d fr o m t h e R F P a n d w a s e x p l a i n in g th e – t h e b id d e r s t h a t h a v e s u b m i t te d th e ir b id s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 92 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d t h e e v a l u a ti o n w a s d o n e a n d b a s e d o n t h is t a b l e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s – w a s S e a c r e s t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d i t w a s a l s o - t h e s a m e m e m o r a n d u m w a s t h e n h i g h li g h ti n g t h e u r g e n c y o f t h e f u n d s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: That the com pany needs. It w a s e v e n h i g h l ig h ti n g t h e li q u i d it y r is k s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Th a t c o m p a n y t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e c a t a s tr o p h ic r is k s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: That the company would face should the c o m p a n y n o t g e t th e f u n d i n g , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I w o u l d lik e t o a s s i s t – if I m a y – i n t h is r e g a r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m th e e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n p r e s e n te d t h u s f a r is t h a t b o th 2 7 N o v e m b e r s u b m is s io n 20 fr o m t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r w a s b e fo r e t h e B o a r d b u t s o t o o w a s th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n h a d r e q u ir e d b e d o n e b y t h e L e g a l R i s k a n d C o m p li a n c e S e c ti o n . I w il l t a k e y o u to th o s e d o c u m e n ts n o w - to w h ic h a n a n n e x u r e i s t h e d r a f t a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e c o n d it i o n s p r e c e d e n t . So m a y b e t h a t w il l h e l p r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y a s to w h e t h e r t h a t s e r v e d Page 93 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b e f o r e th e B o a r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w il l f in d t h a t in D D 1 a t p a g e 2 - 4 - 4 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: D D 1 A ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 A - a p o l o g ie s y e s , A . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: P a g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 4 - 4 – a p o lo g ie s I t h i n k I g o t t h a t w r o n g a s w e ll - 2 - 4 - 4 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k th a t is th e m e m o r a n d u m y o u a r e r e c a l li n g . Is t h a t r ig h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th is is t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r m e m o r a n d u m o f 2 7 N o v e m b e r. I t is w r i tt e n – w e l l t o g e t t h e c h r o n o l o g y e x a c t ly r i g h t . T h e r e is o n e t h a t p r e c e d e s t h is w h i c h r e c o m m e n d e d a D D b e d o n e . T h e r e w a s a D D d o n e a n d it is d a te d – y o u w il l s e e i t a t 2 - 7 - 4 – i t i s d a t e d 2 6 N o v e m b e r b e c a u s e C h a ir y o u w i ll r e c a l l fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e there was concern … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 CHAIRPERSON: I j u s t w a n t to s a y t h e r e a r e s o m a n y o f t h e s e a c r o n y m s . T h a t is D u e D i li g e n c e y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is – it i s . DD for present purposes means D u e D i li g e n c e n o t t h e e x h i b it n u m b e r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e c u r r e n tly d e a li n g w i th . Page 94 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M s N h a n ts i … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l s e e a t 2 - 7 - 4 t h a t is t h e S A A E x c o s u b m is s io n p r e p a r e d b y L e g a l R is k a n d C o m p li a n c e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll s e e i n g t h a t a t t h e t i m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n t h e B o a r d M e e ti n g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e t h i s is w h a t c o v e r s a l l o f th e c o n c e r n s 10 … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t a b o u t th a t D u e D i li g e n c e . It – i t d e a l w it h … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , yes I saw it. It was part of 2 7 N o v e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. W e l l t h e n y o u w i ll s e e a t p a g e 2 - 7 - 5 … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e s e c o n d li n e t h e s e n te n c e s t a r ts th e r e : “ A D r a f t A g r e e m e n t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d f o r th e 20 p r o p o s e d t r a n s a c t io n w i t h S e a c r e s t . A copy is a tt a c h e d m a r k e d A n n e x u r e 2 . ” T h a t is th e o n e th a t c o n t a i n s t h e c o n d i ti o n s p r e c e d e n t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u a r e s a t is f ie d th a t w a s a ls o b e f o r e th e Board then? Page 95 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t I d o n o t r e c a l l i t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I w o u ld li k e t o t h e n j u s t a s k a f e w c o n c l u d i n g q u e s ti o n s o n t h e F D C d e c is io n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i a s I – a s I h a v e y o u r t e s ti m o n y e a r l ie r y o u e v e n r a is e d o n t h a t c a ll w it h M r M o y o o n 1 D e c e m b e r a n is s u e a r o u n d th e m a n d a t e o f t h e F D C . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e h e t o l d y o u in n o u n c e r t a in t e r m s i t w a s w i th i n th e ir m a n d a t e t o e n g a g e i n th is f u n d i n g . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e t h e n i n f o r m e d a n d I d i d in t e r r u p t y o u e a r l ie r – a p o l o g i e s f o r t h a t – b u t I w a n t e d t o m o v e i n s e q u e n c e t o … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 b e c a u s e y o u w e r e a b o u t to g e t there … 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s w e h a v e Ms S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e o n 6 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 s h e r e la y e d t o y o u t h e o u tc o m e o f a m e e ti n g t h a t h a d b e e n h a d b e t w e e n th e Tr e a s u r y D e p a r t m e n t o f S A A a n d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a t w h ic h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d i n d ic a t e d th a t t h i s f u n d in g w a s b e y o n d t h e m a n d a t e o f th e F D C . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? Page 96 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I r e c a ll . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r e c a ll h e r m a k i n g t h a t k n o w n t o y o u o n 6 January? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s a n d a l s o I – I t h e n s a i d i w il l c o m e b a c k to her … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O n t h a t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h a t y o u s e e m t o b e a g r e e d in y o u r evidence. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d t h a t n o t w o r r y y o u ? W h a t d i d y o u d o w h e n y o u s a i d y o u w o u ld c o m e b a c k t o h e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . I d i d c a l l t h e – t h e C F O o f F D C . A s I s a i d t o M s S ti m p e l th a t I w i ll g o a n d – a n d f i n d o u t a n d th e n I e v e n s p e c i f ic a l ly a s k e d M r M o y o w h i c h s e c ti o n o n t h e A c t o f F D C a r e t h e y mandated to do. H e r e f e r r e d m e t o S e c ti o n 4 ( A) ( h ) w h i c h is o n th e P o s e r s o f th e B o a r d o n th e F D C A c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l l e t u s lo o k a t t h a t i f w e m a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w e d o h a v e i t i n th e b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : In – i n w h ic h b u n d le w o u ld i t b e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t h a v e t o r e m i n d m y s e lf . Ye s i t i s i n D D 1 C . CHAIRPERSON: I have got EXHIBIT DD1C. Page 97 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w il l f in d t h e A c t b e g i n s a t p a g e 9 - 0 - 4 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J u s t h a n g o n . CHAIRPERSON: 9-0-4. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o r r y w h a t is t h e p a g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 9-0-4. M s N h a n t s i c a n I j u s t a s k a li t tl e b i t m o r e a b o u t th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n ? W h e n h e r e fe r e n c e d t h a t s e c ti o n o f t h e A c t d id y o u g o a n d l o o k a t i t y o u r s e l f a t th e t i m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d id . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u – y o u s a i d t h a t h e h a d in d ic a t e d S e c ti o n 4 ( F) . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 4 ( A) ( h ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 4 ( A ) … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 4 ( A) ( h ) . I t s ta r t s b y s a y in g : “ T h e B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s s h a ll h a v e a l l th e p o w e r s t o achieve all the m a in o b j e c ts for w h ic h the c o r p o r a t io n is e s ta b lis h e d a n d w i th o u t d e tr a c t in g fr o m t h e g e n e r a l i ty o f t h e s e c ti o n t h e P o w e r s o f t h e B o a r d s h a l l in c l u d e t h e f o l lo w in g : t o e n te r i n to a n d 20 fi n a n c e jo i n t v e n t u r e s o r a c t a s a n a g e n t . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I w il l p r o b e t h a t a b it f u r t h e r w i t h you but can I just check. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r u n t h i s p a s t a n y o n e i n L e g a l a t S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I discussed it with the Head of Legal Page 98 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 U r s u l a Fi k e l e p i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n w a s t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o m e t i m e in J a n u a r y a f t e r I d is c u s s e d i t w i th – w i th M r M o y o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id s h e a g r e e w i th y o u r i n te r p r e t a t i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s s h e d id b u t it w a s n o t – I d id n o t a s k f o r a – a l e g a l o p i n io n . W e w e r e j u s t d is c u s s i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l c o m e b a c k t o w h y a l e g a l D u e D i li g e n c e w a s n o t d o n e b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a c t u a l ly r e q u e s te d i n D e c e m b e r b y 10 s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms Nhantsi I accept that you are not a lawyer in d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t c a n I e x p l a i n w h y I a c c e p t e d t h i s a n d t h e d is c u s s io n th a t I h a d w it h M s Fik e le p i ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B e c a u s e th e B o a r d h a s g o t p o w e r s t o e n te r in t o f i n a n c e , j o i n t v e n t u r e s o r a c t a s a n a g e n t. T h e d is c u s s io n th a t I h a d w i th t h e C F O o f FD C I a s k e d h o w a r e t h e y g o in g t o b e n e f i t o r h o w 20 a r e th e y a c t i n g . H e s a id t h e – i n t h is t r a n s a c t io n t h e y a r e g o in g t o a c t as an agent because they do not have the funds. T h e f o r e i g n in v e s t o r i n th is c a s e is G r is s a g A G w il l – w il l g iv e t h e f u n d s b u t t h e y w il l c h a r g e a m a r g i n a t S A A . S o b a s i c a ll y t h e y a r e a c ti n g a s a n a g e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t m e j u s t g e t t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s r i g h t . Page 99 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e to l d o n 6 J a n u a r y th a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d t a k e n t h e v i e w th a t t h is w a s b e y o n d th e mandate of the FDC. Correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u t h e n w e n t to e n g a g e FD C y o u r s e l f . C o r r e c t? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e t o l d b y F D C t h a t i t – t h a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y w a s w r o n g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i n fa c t i t d i d f a l l w i t h i n t h e ir m a n d a t e – 4 ( A) ( h ) . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Yo u h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h s o m e b o d y in t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t b u t d i d n o t a s k fo r a n y f o r m a l r e v i e w to b e d o n e o f t h is q u e s t i o n . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A t th e ti m e C h a i r I d i d n o t a s k f o r i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It did not worry you that the advice you were b e i n g g i v e n w a s d ir e c tly c o n tr a d ic ti n g w h a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d s a i d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t – n o t r e a ll y C h a ir a t t h e t i m e b u t n o w Page 100 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 lo o k in g b a c k a n d h a v i n g h e a r d w h a t I h a v e h e a r d u p to s o fa r it w o u ld worry me but at the time it did not. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms Nhantsi I accept you are not a – a lawyer b u t I m u s t p u t th is to y o u i n f a ir n e s s . The Powers of the Board of D ir e c t o r s o f a c o m p a n y c a n n o t b e g r e a t e r t h a n t h e c a p a c i ty o f th e c o m p a n y. T h a t is w h y a l a w y e r l o o k in g a t th is w o u l d f ir s t s t a r t a t th e c a p a c i ty o f t h e c o m p a n y w h i c h is S e c t io n 4 . W e d i d t h i s t h e o th e r d a y w it h M s S t i m p e l i n h e r e v i d e n c e . Yo u m a y h a v e s e e n th a t . T h e c a p a c i t y o f th e c o r p o r a t io n in S e c t i o n 4 10 is d e fi n e d w it h r e fe r e n c e to it s m a i n o b je c ts w h ic h i s i n t h r e e a n d n o n e o f th o s e S e c ti o n s 3 i n c l u d e le n d i n g b e t w e e n S t a t e O w n e d E n t it i e s . T h e y a r e a ll s p e c i fi c a ll y c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e P r o v i n c e o f th e Fr e e S t a te . Do you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I s e e th a t b u t a s I h a v e s a id – a s I a m s a y in g s h e – h e a ls o r e f e r r e d m e t o th is s e c t io n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h ic h I r e a d a n d i t – i t m a d e s e n s e to m e a n d I d i s c u s s e d i t w i th U r s u l a F ik e l e p i b u t a t th e t i m e I d i d n o t t h i n k o f – o f g e t ti n g th e – t h e l e g a l o p i n i o n … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t a s y o u a r e r ig h t fu ll y s a y i n g i t s h o u ld n o t h a v e e x c e e d e d t h e c a p a c i ty. I d o n o t k n o w a n d th a n k s f o r t h a t . I d i d n o t k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . L e t u s … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D id i t c r o s s y o u r m i n d th a t i t w a s s tr a n g e Page 101 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h a t a n e n ti ty t h a t i s s u p p o s e d t o o p e r a t e w i t h i n a p r o v in c e – Fr e e S t a te – w a s s e e k i n g to i n v o lv e it s e l f o u ts id e o f t h e p r o v i n c e a n d w i t h SAA? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t s o m e t h i n g t h a t c r o s s e d y o u r m i n d a s … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t d id . C H A I R P E R S O N : R a t h e r s tr a n g e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t d i d C h a ir. I e v e n a s k e d a n d a l lo w m e t o p u t in la y m a n ’s t e r m s b e c a u s e h e is a ls o n o t a l a w y e r. I a s k e d o n e , I 10 s a i d t o h i m i t is – i t is p u b l ic k n o w l e d g e t h a t FD C g e ts g r a n ts fr o m Government. W h e r e a r e y o u g o i n g to g e t 1 5 b il li o n fr o m a n d t h e n h e t o l d m e a b o u t t h e – th e fo r e ig n i n v e s t o r ? I t h e n s a id h o w i s – h o w is F D C g o i n g t o b e n e fi t . H e s a id n o in t e r m s o f th e i r F D C A c t – th a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g a l lo w m e t o p u t i t in la y m a n ’s te r ms b e c a u s e h e t h e n s a i d th e – t h e A c t a ll o w s t h e m t o t h i n k o u t s i d e th e b o x a n d g e t m o n e y f o r – f o r F r e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n a n d h o w th e y a r e g o in g t o g e t m o n e y f r o m t h is i s th e r e w ill b e t h is in t e r m e d i a r y a n d – I t h i n k h e s a i d 0 .5 p e r c e n t w il l b e e a r n e d b y F D C d o i n g t h i s t r a n s a c t io n . T h e r e f o r e F D C is g o in g t o b e n e f i t. 20 S o it m a d e s e n s e to m e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i h o w lo n g a ft e r N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y r a i s e d th is c o n c e r n o f t h e m a n d a t e o f th e FD C – F D C c o n t in u e d t o b e e n t e r t a i n e d a s a p o s s i b l e s o u r c e o f f u n d s b e c o m e s q u i te i m p o r t a n t in r e l a ti o n to t h e u r g e n c y w i t h w h i c h f u n d s e v e n tu a l ly h a v e t o b e s o u r c e d Page 102 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w h e n FD C a n d t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n f e l l t h r o u g h . I a m g iv i n g y o u t h a t b a c k g r o u n d b e c a u s e I – I w a n t t o p u t t o y o u t h a t i f M r L u s e n g a ’s q u e r y o n 11 D e c e m b e r t h a t a L e g a l D u e D i li g e n c e n e e d e d to b e d o n e o n F D C h a d b e e n d o n e – d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t h e m a d e t h a t r e q u e s t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u l ik e to g o t o t h e e m a i l c o n t a i n i n g i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I r e m e m b e r i t b u t w e c a n g o i f y o u … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I t i s i n D D 1 A a t p a g e 3 - 0 - 3 . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D D 1 A p a g e 3 - 0 - 3 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I ’v e g o t i t , th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, t h i s is a n e m a il w e l o o k e d a t in la s t w e e k ’s e v i d e n c e . T h i s is a ft e r t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is io n o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r t o tr a n s a c t w i th F D C a n d th e n a s I h a v e i t y o u r e ff o r ts t h e n t o r u n a p r o c e s s f o r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f F D C d e s p i te th e f a c t t h a t th e B o a r d h a d a lr e a d y t a k e n i ts d e c is io n a n d i n r e s p o n s e to t h e s e n d i n g o u t o f t h e R F P t o F D C M r L e s e n g a , w h o I u n d e r s ta n d L e s e n g a , w h o I 20 u n d e r s t a n d is fr o m t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t i n S A A , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , c o r r e c t . H e s e n d s a n e m a il o n t h e 11 t h o f D e c e m b e r a d d r e s s e d to M ic h a e l K le i n : “Dear Michael A r e w e g o i n g t o c o n d u c t a l e g a l a n d f in a n c ia l d u e d il ig e n c e o n F D C . ” Page 103 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 Do you see that? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I d o C h a ir. M s N h a n ts i I c a n ’ t r e s is t s a y th a t d o e s c o m e a s s o m e t h i n g o f a n ir o n y t o m e t h a t q u e s ti o n a s k e d o n t h e 11 t h o f D e c e m b e r b e c a u s e y o u w ill r e c a l l o n e o f t h e p r i n c i p le r e a s o n s f o r t h e B o a r d n o t b e i n g w i ll in g t o g o w i th S e a c r e s t w a s th a t i t w a s n o t s a t is fi e d t h a t a n a d e q u a te d u e d il ig e n c e h a d b e e n c o m p l e t e d a n d y e t i t a p p r o v e d F D C w it h o u t a n y d u e d il i g e n c e o f a n y s o r t b e in g d o n e , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th o s e a r e t h e f a c t s ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s t h a t is a f a c t . B e c a u s e th e fir s t t i m e th is is a s k e d is o n t h e 11 t h o f D e c e m b e r, s o h e a s k s f o r i t t o b e d o n e o r w h e t h e r i t ’s g o i n g to be done and your response at the top of that page as I have it is: “ Ye s w e w i ll p e r fo r m t h e le g a l d u e d i li g e n c e a n d I w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t w e g i v e t h a t m a n d a t e to U r s u la a t t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t . ” MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t th a t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n fo r m a l ly d i d i t , according to your evidence? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 I d o n ’t r e c a l l g e tt i n g a n y l e g a l d u e d i li g e n c e report. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , a ll y o u h a d w a s t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h h e r, is t h a t r i g h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t c o n v e r s a t io n , t h is i s a m a n d a t e g iv e n Ursula. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o a p o l o g ie s , y o u r p r e v io u s e v i d e n c e w a s Page 104 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h a t y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a t io n w it h h e r i n e a r ly J a n u a r y to c h e c k w h a t y o u ’v e b e e n to ld b y F D C , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h , n o b u t t h a t o n e w a s m o r e r e l a ti n g to t h e m a n d a te b u t i t w a s n o t s a y i n g s h e m u s t n o t d o d u e d il ig e n c e , I w a s ju s t a s k i n g a b o u t th e F D C m a n d a t e , s o t h is o n e is m a n d a te d t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t t o d o t h e d u e d i li g e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , m a y b e w e a r e a t c r o s s - p u r p o s e s , I a s s u m e o n e o f th e q u e s t io n s t h a t t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t w o u ld h a v e lo o k e d a t , h a d i t d o n e t h i s d u e d i li g e n c e is w h e t h e r i t fe ll w it h in t h e 10 F D C ’s m a n d a te t o b e e n g a g in g i n t h is tr a n s a c t io n a t a l l ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s , a s I a m s a y in g I a m n o t s u r e I d i d n ’ t g e t a r e p o r t fr o m l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t s o I a m n o t s u r e w h a t w a s c o v e r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t, b u t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) B u t i t w a s d o n e a t l e g a l C h a ir. Indeed, but at least in January 2016 you were h a p p y t o p r o c e e d w i t h FD C a s I h a v e i t , b a s e d o n w h a t Mr M o y o h a d t o l d y o u a b o u t t h e c a p a c i ty o f F D C a n d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t y o u h a d w i t h t h e h e a d o f th e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t a t S A A , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , I w a s h a p p y t o . A n d t h o s e e n g a g e m e n ts w i th F D C a s I h a v e t h e e v id e n c e c o n t in u e d r i g h t u p u n t il A p r il o f 2 0 1 6 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. Ms N h a n t s i d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i f a p r o p e r le g a l d u e d i li g e n c e h a d b e e n d o n e e a r l y i n J a n u a r y, o r i n d e e d N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s p o s i ti o n o n t h i s h a d b e e n a c c e p t e d th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n Page 105 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a n o p p o r t u n i ty th e n a n d t h e r e t o g o o u t f o r a n o th e r s o u r c e o f f u n d s ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I a g r e e . S o w h e n t h e F D C h a s c o n ti n u e d to b e e n t e r t a i n e d u n t il A p r il a t le a s t t h e m o n th s o f F e b r u a r y a n d M a r c h a r e lo s t f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f s o u r c i n g f u n d s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir c a n I a ls o e la b o r a te o n t h a t is – it is n o t j u s t a b o u t e n te r t a i n in g F D C , i t w a s m o r e a b o u t a l s o c a lc u l a ti n g a s I s a id t h e in t e r e s t r a t e t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o g e t fr o m F D C w h i c h w a s 4 % s o w h e n w e c o n t i n u e d w i t h FD C I th i n k i n m y m i n d I s a w – I 10 w a s a c t i n g in t h e b e s t i n te r e s t s o f t h e c o m p a n y, l o o k i n g a t th e i n t e r e s t r a te th a t w e a r e g o i n g t o g e t , l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t w a s d o i n g t h e ir p a r t b u t fr o m th e n u m b e r s p e r s p e c tiv e f o r m e i t m a d e s e n s e t o c o n t in u e w it h them. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d M s N h a n ts i b u t w h e th e r t h e F D C h a d le g a l c a p a c i ty t o e n t e r i n t o th is i s a f u n d a m e n ta l r e q u ir e m e n t f o r th is t o h a v e b e e n a s u c c e s s f u l s o u r c e o f f u n d s f o r S A A , i s n ’ t i t? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o I j u s t r e it e r a te t h e p o i n t i f t h e w o r k h a d b e e n d o n e e a r ly o n i n J a n u a r y o r i f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s v ie w h a d b e e n 20 a c c e p te d th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e e n d t o th e e n g a g e m e n t w i t h FD C w o u ld it n o t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I agree, agreed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u ld t h e n l ik e t o g o t o t h e s e c o n d d e c i s i o n w h i c h is th e d e c is i o n o n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Perhaps before you leave that on my Page 106 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s t a te m e n t i f y o u a ll o w m e C h a ir t o c o n c l u d e b e c a u s e m y a n s w e r w a s n o , n o i n w h a t I k n o w t o d a y, I w o u l d l ik e t o s a y w h y b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t y o u w o u l d a s k th is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: W h y t o d a y I f e e l th a t d e c is i o n w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e m a d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d e a l w i th t h a t p l e a s e . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s , C h a ir i n my d is c u s s i o n w it h Mr M o y o a t t h e ti m e h e m e n ti o n e d th a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e ir B o a r d , i n th e 10 F D C B o a r d w a s th e b r o th e r o f – w a s t h e s is t e r o f M r A c e M a g u s h u l e a n d a t t h e ti m e I c o u l d n o t li n k a n y th in g b e c a u s e c le a r ly I w a s c o m in g t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l b a c k g r o u n d w h e r e w e ’r e d o i n g t h e a u d i ti n g a n d t h a t s o I w a s n o t r e a l ly c l u e d u p w i t h p o l i ti c s b u t n o w lo o k i n g b a c k a n d k n o w i n g w h a t I k n o w, h a v i n g e s p e c ia ll y t h e te s t i m o n y o f Mr v a n d e r M e r w e I s e e t h a t i n a w a y I w a s u s e d a s c a p e g o a t o r a s a v e h i c l e f o r p e o p le to e n r ic h t h e m s e l v e s , b e c a u s e k n o w i n g w h a t I k n o w n o w a n d a ls o r e a d i n g a g a in a n d a g a i n t h e l e tt e r t h a t – t h e o n e p a g e l e t t e r th a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m F D C i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t th e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s b e fo r e t h e d is c u s s io n s . I t l e a v e s m e w it h n o c h o i c e b u t t o c o n c lu d e t h a t p e r h a p s 20 t h e y u s e d M r M o y o to c o m e t o m e b e c a u s e I w o u l d n o t q u e s ti o n a l e t te r t h a t i s c o m in g fr o m M r M o y o b e c a u s e i f i t w a s a n y b o d y e ls e th a t I n e v e r k n e w b e fo r e I w a s n o t g o i n g t o e n t e r t a i n i t , s o I fe e l C h a ir t h a t k n o w i n g w h a t I k n o w n o w w it h Mr v a n d e r M e r w e I w a s u s e d i n t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n a n d t h e f o l l o w in g tr a n s a c ti o n b u t I w i ll ta lk a b o u t th e f o l lo w in g tr a n s a c ti o n a t t h e ti m e a s w e l l b u t o n e I w a s a c ti n g i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s ts Page 107 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 o f t h e c o m p a n y, r u n n i n g li k e a h e a d l e s s c h ic k e n t o s a v e m o n e y f o r th e c o m p a n y b u t n o t k n o w i n g th a t a t t h e e n d t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p e o p l e th a t w i ll h a v e r ic h p o c k e t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th is d e c is i o n o f th e S A A B o a r d t h a t y o u a n d th e C E O , w a s i t Ac t in g C E O , y o u w e r e i n te r i m C F O a n d t h e r e w a s a n a c ti n g C E O . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: A c ti n g C E O y e s C h a ir. T h a t y o u g o a h e a d a n d t a k e a ll t h e n e c e s s a r y s t e p s a n d c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t w i th F D C . I k n o w t h a t y o u d o n ’ t s u p p o r t i t n o w a s y o u s i t t h e r e , y o u s a y i t w a s n o t c o r r e c t , b u t a t t h a t ti m e , I j u s t 10 want to make sure I understand it, at that time did you feel that it was a correct decision? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir a t t h e t i m e I f e l t i t w a s a c o r r e c t d e c is i o n , e s p e c i a l ly a l s o b a c k e d u p b y t h e n u m b e r s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d w h e n y o u l o o k – a n d y o u r r e a s o n s a t t h e ti m e f o r ta k i n g t h e v i e w t h a t i t w a s t h e c o r r e c t d e c is io n w o u ld b e w h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e r e a s o n s C h a ir a t t h e t i m e n u m b e r o n e w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e l e t t e r t h a t w e r e c e iv e d , s o r r y th e t e r m s h e e ts t h a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m F D C a n d y o u c a lc u l a te h o w m u c h s a v in g s w o u l d t h e c o m p a n y b e n e f i t n u m b e r o n e t h e c o m p a n y w a s g o i n g t o b e n e f it 20 7 0 0 m i lli o n . N u m b e r t w o I w a s a ls o c o m f o r ta b le w i th t h e f a c t t h a t o n e t h is is t h e B o a r d tr a n s a c t i o n , b u t I w a s c o m f o r ta b le t h a t i t w a s a c c o m m o d a t e d o n t h e S C M p o li c y, w e f o l l o w e d th e p r o c e s s , s o a t t h e ti m e I t h o u g h t w e ’r e d o i n g a v e r y g o o d t h i n g a n d i n fa c t w i th i n t h e b o o k s o f th e c o m p a n y th a t w e s a v e d R 7 0 0 m il li o n i n a y e a r. CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e ti n g o f t h e B o a r d d i d n ’ t Page 108 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u o n ly f o u n d o u t a b o u t t h is c l a u s e o f t h e p o l ic y a ft e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o a t t h e ti m e t h e d e c i s i o n w a s t a k e n y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a c l a u s e t h a t s e e m e d t o , o r t h a t w a s g o in g t o b e s a i d t o a u th o r is e t h a t t h e B o a r d m a k e s a d e c i s i o n i n t h e w a y i t m a d e i t , b u t a t th a t ti m e d i d y o u t h i n k t h a t th e B o a r d w a s c o r r e c t in m a k i n g th e 10 d e c is i o n t h a t i t m a d e n a m e ly g o a h e a d a n d c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t w i th F D C f o r th e p r o v i s i o n o f th is fu n d i n g w i th o u t a n y p r o c e s s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t s ta g e a s y o u w e r e s i t ti n g a t t h e m e e ti n g . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A s I w a s s i t t in g i n t h e m e e t in g C h a ir I k n e w t h a t I a m g o i n g t o f o l lo w t h a t p r o c e s s a n d e n s u r e t h a t i t is i n li n e w i t h t h e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t, s u p p ly c h a i n p o l ic y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a s y o u w e r e s i t ti n g a t t h e m e e t in g y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s in li n e o r it w a s n o t i n l i n e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 N o I w a s n o t a w a r e C h a ir, h e n c e I c a ll e d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a f te r t h e m e e ti n g t o s a y t h i s is th e d e c i s i o n t h a t h a s b e e n t a k e n b y t h e B o a r d , t h e B o a r d is s a y i n g y o u m u s t i m p l e m e n t t h is , i s i t c a t e r e d , is i t in l in e w i t h th e p o l ic y, b e c a u s e i f i t w a s n o t C h a i r I w a s g o i n g t o t a k e i t b a c k to t h e B o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: S o w o u ld it b e c o r r e c t th a t th e r e f o r e y o u c o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n in s u p p o r t o f t h e d e c i s i o n a s a t t h e ti m e y o u a t t e n d e d t h e Page 109 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 m e e ti n g b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h in f o r m a ti o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h in f o r m a ti o n C h a ir. A n d a t t h e ti m e I d id n o t h a v e a ls o a n y r e a s o n s to d o u b t t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e y a r e n o t t a k i n g t h e d e c is i o n t h a t is in t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t w h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t a n y d e c is i o n b e i n g i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f a c o m p a n y t h e r e m a y b e t w o c o m p o n e n t s to t h a t , t h e r e m ig h t b e a d e c i s i o n t h a t i n p r in c i p l e m a y b e i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y b u t t h e r e m i g h t b e a ls o t h e is s u e o f p r o c e s s e s , w h e th e r 10 the right process is followed, so I guess that you would look at both b e f o r e y o u c o n c l u d e w h e t h e r y o u s a y t h is d e c i s i o n is i n t h e b e s t in t e r e s ts o f t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e if t h e r ig h t p r o c e s s e s a r e n o t f o ll o w e d t h a t m i g h t n o t b e i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s ts o f t h e c o m p a n y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Agree. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t a s y o u w e r e s it t in g a t t h e m e e ti n g y o u d i d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t d e c is i o n w a s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e p r o c e s s e s b u t y o u a s s u m e d t h a t t h e B o a r d w o u ld n o t t a k e a d e c is i o n t h a t w a s n o t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h p r o c e s s e s o r w h a t i s y o u r evidence? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I assumed number one, one thing that I k n e w a t t h e t i m e C h a ir w a s i n t e r m s o f th e d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r i ty t h is tr a n s a c ti o n i s th e B o a r d ’s d e c is io n b e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t a n y t r a n s a c t io n t h a t is a b o v e R 5 0 m il li o n th e B o a r d n e e d s t o t a k e a d e c is io n , s o w h e n t h e y t o o k a d e c i s i o n in d e c li n in g t h e S e a c r e s t a n d t h e C o n s o r t iu m o f t h e B a n k s a n d ta k i n g a d e c i s i o n o f u s e n g a g in g w i t h F T C I t h o u g h t a t Page 110 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h e t i m e t h e B o a r d , I d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y r e a s o n t o b e l i e v e th a t t h e r e is a n y th in g u n t o w a r d . CHAIRPERSON: S o a t w h a t s ta g e o r w h e n w o u l d y o u s a y y o u h a d r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e y o u s a i d n o th i s d e c is i o n o f th e B o a r d is correct? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A f t e r I e n g a g e d w it h th e p r o c u r e m e n t t e a m a n d t h e y s a i d t h e r e is c l a u s e t h a t a ll o w s t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f t h e FD C le t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 A r e n ’ t t h e – s h o u ld n ’t t h e r e h a v e b e e n c e r t a i n in f o r m a ti o n b e f o r e t h e B o a r d a b o u t F D C th a t w a s c r i t ic a l f o r i ts d e c is i o n t h a t w a s n ’ t t h e r e , d i d t h e B o a r d h a v e a ll th e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t i t n e e d e d t o h a v e b e f o r e i t , b e f o r e i t c o u ld m a k e a d e c i s i o n th a t w e a r e c h o o s i n g F D C t o b e t h e o n e to p r o v i d e f u n d i n g , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s a y in g g o a h e a d a n d c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t, is n ’ t i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d id t h e y h a v e a l l t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u i n th e p o s i ti o n i n w h ic h y o u o c c u p i e d t h o u g h t t h e y n e e d e d t o h a v e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e a ll t h e in f o r m a ti o n C h a ir, t h e o n ly d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s i n th e p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e B o a r d w a s 20 t h e l e t t e r t h a t w e c ir c u l a t e d t h a t m o r n i n g , th a t w a s t a lk in g a b o u t F D C a n d t h e l e tt e r t h e r e a s o n w h y I t h o u g h t t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g u n t o w a r d b e c a u s e t h a t ’s u n s o lic i te d p r o p o s a l , s o th e u n s o l ic it e d p r o p o s a l s b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o c o m m i t m e n t o n t h a t le t t e r th e y w e r e s a y in g if y o u a r e in t e r e s t e d th e r e ’s n o th i n g , th e r e ’s n o fir m c o m m i t m e n t b u t w e c a n e n g a g e i t f u r t h e r h e n c e a f te r t h e B o a r d , y e s I a g r e e w it h y o u m a y b e th e Page 111 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 B o a r d t o o k th e d e c is i o n w i t h n o t e n o u g h i n f o r m a ti o n o n th e i r h a n d s . CHAIRPERSON: But I take it that you not being a member of the Board b u t b e in g in t e r i m C F O th a t y o u a r e b e i n g a t t h e m e e ti n g o f th e B o a r d o n t h a t o c c a s i o n in c l u d e d th a t y o u c o u l d a d v i s e t h e B o a r d o r a l e r t t h e m t o a n y d a n g e r s i n m a k in g a d e c is i o n o n e w a y o r a n o th e r o n a m a t te r such as this. m e e ti n g ? d e c is i o n Would – did it – was that not part of your job at that M a y b e t o b e a b l e to s a y to t h e B o a r d b e f o r e y o u m a k e a n y on these matters i t’s n e c e s s a r y t o h a v e t h e f o ll o w i n g in f o r m a ti o n a n d I n o t e t h a t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e th a t i n fo r m a ti o n . M y a d v ic e 10 is th a t y o u d o n ’ t m a k e a d e c i s i o n u n ti l y o u h a v e t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n , wasn’t that part of what you were supposed to do? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t w a s C h a ir b u t c o n s i d e r i n g t h a t I w a s n e w t h e y t o o k t h e d e c is i o n b u t h e n c e I a m s a y i n g I w e n t b a c k t o th e t e a m a s f a r a s g e t ti n g t h e t e r m s h e e t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is F D C o ff e r i n g b u t y o u a r e r i g h t I d id n ’t r a i s e a c o n c e r n w i t h t h e B o a r d b u t i n t h e ir f a ir n e s s a n d i n my f a i r n e s s a s w e ll t h e f a c t th a t t h e c o m p a n y n e e d e d f u n d i n g u r g e n tl y I t h o u g h t t h e d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n o n a n u r g e n t b a s i s t h a t g o a n d e n g a g e t h is p r o c e s s t h a t t h e c o m p a n y h a d e m b a r k e d o n h a d f a i l e d n o w t h is i s th e u n s o l ic it e d p r o p o s a l g o a n d e n g a g e a n d 20 c o n c l u d e i f t h e i n fo r m a ti o n s u r f a c e , th a t w a s h o w I i n te r p r e t e d it . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll th a t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e I n o t e d w h e n w e lo o k e d a t t h is e x tr a c t f r o m t h e m i n u te s o f t h e m e e t i n g o f t h e B o a r d t h a t p a r t 3 o f t h e r e s o lu t io n , o f t h e m i n u t e s t h a t w e lo o k e d a t , a t 2 8 9 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t o g o t h e r e . Page 112 of 266 D id n ’t s a y s o m e t h i n g 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a l o n g th e s e l in e s t h e I n t e r i m C F O a n d t h e A c ti n g C E O a r e a r e m a n d a t e d t o lo o k i n t o t h e f o l lo w in g is s u e s a n d i f t h e y a r e s a t is fi e d t h a t t h o s e is s u e s a r e i n o r d e r g o a h e a d a n d c o n c l u d e . I t s a i d y o u m u s t g o and conclude. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t s tr u c k m e a s s tr a n g e in c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e it s e e m e d a l l t h a t th e y h a d o n b e f o r e t h e m i n r e g a r d t o F D C w a s j u s t t h a t l e t te r, b u t fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d y o u a g r e e t h a t th e y d i d n ’ t h a v e a ll t h e in f o r m a ti o n th a t t h e y n e e d e d t o h a v e i n o r d e r t o m a k e t h a t d e c is i o n . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: A g r e e C h a ir. And you should have advised them, do you agree? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d id n ’ t a d v is e t h e m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h y is t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e o n e , a n d I d o n ’ t w a n t i t t o b e s e e n a s i f i t is a n e x c u s e t h a t o n e I w a s n e w, a n d i t w a s t h e f ir s t b o a r d m e e ti n g t h a t I a t t e n d e d , a n d I d i d n ’ t k n o w h o w t h e y o p e r a t e , h e n c e I d i d n o t j u s t t a k e i t C h a ir a n d i m p le m e n t , I t o o k i t a n d 20 d is c u s s e d w i th t h e t e a m s a n d fi n d w a y s o f w o r k i n g o n i t a n d i f th e r e w e r e a n y p r o b le m s I w o u ld g o b a c k to t h e B o a r d a n d s a y y o u a r e m a n d a t e d a s t o r u n w i t h t h is , b u t h e r e a r e t h e c h a l le n g e s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w a s n o t b e fo r e t h e B o a r d t h a t y o u b e li e v e w a s i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e b e e n b e fo r e t h e B o a r d , b e fo r e th e y m a d e the decision to say conclude an agreement with FDC? Page 113 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: S p e c i fi c a ll y t h e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s n o t in fr o n t o f t h e m w a s th e q u a n t u m , w a s th e a m o u n t t h a t F D C b e c a u s e th e le t t e r is s il e n t o n h o w m u c h F D C w o u l d b r in g o n th e ta b le , s o t h e f ir s t o n e is th a t a n d th e s e c o n d o n e i s p e r h a p s i f t h e y w e r e m o r e tr a n s p a r e n t o n t h e f u n d e r a n d p e r h a p s if t h e y w o u l d a ls o b e m o r e tr a n s p a r e n t o f w h e t h e r t h e F D C h a d m a n d a te s th e n to d o t h is . I t w o u l d h a v e a l s o s a v e d ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n te r m s o f d u e d i li g e n c e w a s t h a t a p p li c a b l e o r n o t a p p lic a b l e . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t a t t h a t p o in t C h a ir. T h e d u e d i li g e n c e w a s g o in g t o b e d o n e a f te r, b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r th is is t h e d a y t h a t w e in tr o d u c i n g FDC w i th the u n s o l ic i t e d proposal, so s i t ti n g in d o c u m e n t a ti o n w o u l d t h e n c o m e l a te r, b u t a t a m i n i m u m . O n t h a t d a y t h e l e tt e r s h o u ld h a v e in c l u d e d t h e q u a n tu m , t h e l e t t e r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m o r e o p e n o n t h e ir p o t e n t i a l f o r e i g n i n v e s t o r a n d p e r h a p s t h e t e n u r e o f o r th e i n t e n ti o n h o w l o n g w o u l d t h e y g iv e , h o w m u c h is t h e lo n g e v i ty o f t h i s d e b t , t h e i n te r e s t r a te s a n d a ll th a t , b u t d u e d i li g e n c e at the time Chair was going to be done later on. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I m i g h t n o t u n d e r s t a n d th is , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is 20 t h a t t h a t p a r a g r a p h 3 o f th e e x tr a c t fr o m t h e m i n u te s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t i t – i s t h a t i t in c l u d e s t h a t y o u a n d – i t i n c l u d e d t h a t y o u a n d t h e A c ti n g C F O , C E O , s h o u ld c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t w i th F D C , is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t , i s i t t h e s a m e a s y o u r s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: It ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, it is c o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t d u e d il ig e n c e is Page 114 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s u p p o s e d to h a p p e n b e f o r e y o u c o n c lu d e a n a g r e e m e n t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o s u r e I h e a r y o u C h a ir, I t h o u g h t y o u a s k e d m e w h a t i n f o r m a t io n s h o u l d h a v e b e e n b e f o r e t h e B o a r d o n t h a t d a y, f o r th e m t o d e c i d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o , I a s k e d y o u t h a t q u e s t io n e a r li e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y. A n d t h e n y o u to ld m e w h a t i n f o r m a ti o n y o u t h o u g h t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n b e f o r e t h e B o a r d , th e n I a s k e d y o u th e q u e s t io n w h e t h e r d u e d il ig e n c e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e b e f o r e t h e B o a r d c o u l d 10 m a k e t h a t d e c is i o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I th o u g h t y o u w e r e s a y i n g n o n o t a t t h a t s t a g e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h s o r r y C h a ir, y e s , d u e d i li g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n d o n e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w a s n ’ t d o n e a t th a t s t a g e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s n o t d o n e a t t h a t s t a g e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i s t h a t q u it e a c r i ti c a l t h i n g to h a v e d u e d i li g e n c e d o n e b e fo r e a c o m p a n y s u c h a s S A A c o u l d s a y g o a h e a d a n d c o n c l u d e 20 a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h a p a r t ic u l a r e n t i ty ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t i s C h a ir, i t i s a c r i t ic a l t h i n g b e c a u s e y o u n e e d t o k n o w t h e c o m p a n y t h a t is g o in g t o b e b r i n g i n g m o n e y t o t h e c o m p a n y, i t i s c r i t ic a l . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o th e r w is e y o u w o u l d b e p u t t in g S A A a t g r e a t r is k ? Page 115 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir, h e n c e a s w e ll t o e m p h a s i z e o n t h a t h e n c e S e a c r e s t o n th e p r e v i o u s , o n t h e s a m e e x tr a c t w a s d e c li n e d , it w a s d e c l in e d b a s e d o n t h e – o n e o f th e r e a s o n s w a s t h e d u e d i li g e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: A n d o f c o u r s e M s H o f m e y r m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r to y o u t h a t i t w a s s tr a n g e t h a t o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y th e B o a r d r e je c te d S e a c r e s t w a s t h a t d u e d il i g e n c e h a d n o t b e e n d o n e , b u t w h e n i t c a m e t o FD C t h e y a p p r o v e d FD C d e s p i t e th e f a c t t h a t d u e d il ig e n c e h a d n o t b e e n d o n e in r e g a r d t o FD C e i t h e r. 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w o u l d y o u h a v e b e e n a liv e to a l l o f th e s e th in g s a t t h e t i m e o f t h a t m e e ti n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t w i t h d u e d il i g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I f , f o r m e C h a i r in m y c a p a c i ty I w o u l d h a v e a d v is e d t h e B o a r d , I d i d n ’ t , b u t I s h o u l d h a v e a d v is e d t h e B o a r d a t le a s t t o k n o w t h e q u a n t u m , t o k n o w t h e p o t e n t ia l fu n d e r a n d th e t e n d e r a n d a l l th a t . I d o n ’ t t h i n k a t t h e t i m e th a t I w a s a t t e n d i n g t h a t m e e t in g I w o u ld h a v e b e e n a l iv e t o s a y d u e d i li g e n c e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d it b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t p e o p l e w h o a r e f a m ili a r w i th b u s i n e s s e s a n d s o o n a n d c e r t a i n l y c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n ts s h o u l d w h e n to l d t h e B o a r d f o r S A A a p p r o v e d t h a t a n a g r e e m e n t b e c o n c l u d e d w i t h F D C in v o lv in g b i ll io n s o f r a n d w i t h o u t d u e d i li g e n c e b e i n g m a d e w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t w o u l d s a y h o w c o u l d t h e y d o t h a t ? T h a t t h a t w o u ld b e t h e r e a c t io n . W o u l d t h a t Page 116 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b e c o r r e c t t o s a y, t h a t’s w h a t o n e w o u ld e x p e c t fr o m a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t r e a l ly C h a i r n o , t h a t ’s a . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t r e a ll y, i t’s n o t a s b a d a s th a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o , n o C h a ir . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s s o m e t h i n g th a t c a n b e e n te r ta in e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t e n te r t a in e d b u t if f o r e x a m p l e o n e w o u l d hear that perhaps the Board has approved and there was no quantum, there was no interest then you would say as a chartered accountant 10 w h y, w h y is t h a t, b u t a d u e d i li g e n c e is m o r e in t h e l e g a l s p a c e s o t o speak. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e e n ti ty w i t h w h o m S A A , t h e S A A B o a r d w o u l d b e s a y in g g o a h e a d a n d c o n c lu d e a n a g r e e m e n t , c o u l d w e b e p r o v e d to b e c o m p l e t e ly d e fi c i e n t i n te r ms o f t h a t, i t ’s n o t th e ty p e o f e n t it y th a t c a n p r o v i d e w h a t y o u a r e l o o k in g fo r is n ’ t i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d C h a ir, h e n c e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d is c o v e r t h a t if y o u d o d u e d il i g e n c e i s n ’ t i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir h e n c e o n m y e m a i l o n t h e 11 t h o f D e c e m b e r I w a s m a n d a ti n g th e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t to d o t h e d u e 20 d i li g e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o y o u r id e a w a s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o d o i t n e v e r t h e l e s s , y o u w e r e g o i n g t o g o fo r d u e d il i g e n c e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Even though you accept that it is something that p r o b a b ly s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e b e f o r e a n d t h a t y o u – t h e B o a r d Page 117 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 m a y b e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a d v i s e d th a t w a it u n t il t h e r e i s d u e d il ig e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, w e a r e a t o n e o ’c l o c k , I h a v e o n e o r tw o fo ll o w u p q u e s t io n s o n t h i s a s p e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , m a y b e ju s t a s k t h o s e t w o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d C h a ir, I h a v e a l s o b e e n to l d t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a d e l a y o n t h e lu n c h a n d th a t is o n ly a v a i la b l e a t o n e t h ir ty, I d o n ’t k n o w i f t h a t s h o u l d b e t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t i n th e d e c is i o n a b o u t 10 w h e n w e b r e a k b u t I w a s a s k e d t o m a k e th a t k n o w n . M y s e n s e is i f w e t a k e t h e h o u r a n d i t’s o n ly a v a i la b l e m i d w a y th a t s h o u ld s ti ll b e f i n e , b u t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f w e ta k e t h e h o u r a n d t h a t s ti ll s h o u l d b e fi n e t h e n l e t u s t a k e th e h o u r, b u t I t h i n k y o u c a n a s k t h e t w o q u e s ti o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ms N h a n ts i I w o u l d ju s t li k e t o g e t c l e a r o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s i n t h a t m e e ti n g o n th e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r. Yo u w e r e t h e in t e r i m a l b e i t C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o f S A A , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w e r e t h e r e t o lo o k a f t e r t h e fi n a n c i a l b e s t i n t e r e s ts o f S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . Yo u h a v e i n d ic a te d to t h e C h a ir a li s t o f i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n b e f o r e th e B o a r d , b e f o r e i t decided to mandate you and t h e A c t in g C E O Page 118 of 266 to conclude this 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 tr a n s a c ti o n , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m o n g s t th e m I r e c a l l y o u s a y i n g t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a n a c t u a l i n d ic a ti o n o f h o w m u c h w a s g o i n g t o b e f u n d e d , correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s n o t i n t h e l e tt e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o i t w a s n o t in t h e le t t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t is a ll th a t s e r v e d b e f o r e t h e B o a r d o n 10 t h a t d a y, c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a t e r m to th e l o a n fi n a n c i n g , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e a ls o M s N h a n t s i I w a n t t o s u g g e s t t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a c le a r in d i c a t io n o f t h e r a te , s h o u l d t h e r e n o t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Because you cannot assess whether this is g o i n g to b e i n t h e f in a n c i a l in t e r e s ts o f S A A u n l e s s y o u k n o w w h a t t h e 20 r a te is , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M s N h a n t s i I w o u l d l ik e t o a s k y o u w h y y o u d i d n ’ t r a is e a n y o f t h a t w i t h t h e B o a r d o n t h a t d a y, g iv e n t h a t i t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s i b il i ty to lo o k a f te r t h e f in a n c i a l i n t e r e s ts . MS PHU MEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir a s I h a v e a g r e e d th a t I d i d n o t r a is e Page 119 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h is a n d I w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e r a is e d t h e m , h e n c e I f o l l o w e d t h e p r o c e s s o f g e t ti n g t h i s in f o r m a t io n w h i c h w e d id g e t i t o n t h e 2 4 t h o f D e c e m b e r a n d if t h e r e w a s a n y c h a l le n g e o n t h is , f o r e x a m p l e i f th e t e r m s h e e t c a m e b a c k w i t h l e s s t h a n t h e 1 5 b il li o n , b e c a u s e o n th e d a y t h e B o a r d a s s u m e d t h a t S A A – F D C w il l g iv e u s e it h e r fo u r t e e n o r fi f t e e n b i ll io n . I t a k e th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h a t I s h o u l d h a v e h ig h li g h t e d th is a n d I d i d n o t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir t h o s e a r e t h e q u e s ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w e w i ll t a k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l 10 resume at two. We adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r I h o p e t h e t i m e w a s e n o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . It w a s , i t w a s th a n k y o u C h a ir. W e h a v e r e p l e n is h e d o u r s e l v e s a n d r e a d y t o g o . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e . I n t e r m s o f w h a t t i m e w e fi n is h t h is a f t e r n o o n w e d i d s p e a k a b o u t th e p o s s i b i li ty o f g o i n g b e y o n d f o u r o ’c l o c k w o u l d th e s e c o n d w i tn e s s b e – I m e a n a b l e h e k n o w s a b o u t t h e 20 p o s s i b il it y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e d o e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d id d i s c u s s t h a t o v e r t h e b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t i s i n o r d e r I u n d e r s t a n d . Page 120 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . T h a t is f in e . T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir i n t h e i n te r e s t o f ti m e a n d M s N h a ts i m y p r o p o s a l is f o r th e r e m a in d e r o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h is a ft e r n o o n o n o c c a s io n to s e e k to s u m m a r i s e fo r y o u o n o c c a s i o n w h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n d o c u m e n ts j u s t s o t h a t w e c a n s p e e d u p t h e p r o c e s s b u t a t a n y p o in t if y o u w a n t t o h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t i n f r o n t o f y o u f e e l fr e e t o a s k th a t th a t b e t h e c a s e . W i t h y o u r le a v e C h a ir i f t h a t w i ll b e c o n v e n i e n t j u s t t o s p e e d u p th e p a c e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o n o th a t is f in e . S o w h a t M s H o f m e y r is s a y in g 10 t h a t in l e a d i n g y o u r e v i d e n c e s h e m i g h t e i t h e r s u m m a r is e t o y o u w h a t a p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t s a y s o r s h e m ig h t a s k y o u t o j u s t a r t ic u l a t e t h e p o i n t s t h a t a r e c o n t a i n e d i n t h e p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t a s y o u r e m e m b e r them. B u t s h o u l d y o u f e e l th a t y o u w o u ld r a t h e r h a v e a l o o k a t th e d o c u m e n t fir s t b e fo r e a n s w e r i n g f e e l fr e e t o s a y s o . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s N h a n ts i I w o u l d l ik e t o m o v e t o t h e n e x t d e c is io n w h ic h i s t h e – s o r r y w a s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g y o u w a n t e d to say? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir w i t h y o u r p e r m i s s i o n I w il l b e v e r y q u ic k ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I w o u l d lik e t o – to h ig h l i g h t s o m e t h i n g i n c lo s i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s Page 121 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: F D C . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o s a y C h a ir a s I h a v e s ta t e d t h a t I ta k e f u l l r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f n o t h i g h li g h t i n g t o t h e b o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e q u a n t u m a n d t h e i n te r e s t r a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: B u t a t o p e r a ti o n a l l e v e l C h a ir a s y o u h a v e s e e n t h a t I d i d n o t t a k e t h e d e c i s i o n a n d r u n w i th it . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W e w e n t a t a n o p e r a ti o n a l le v e l a n d e n s u r e that processes are done. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d t h e c o n tr a c t C h a i r b e tw e e n S A A . CHAIRPERSON: Hm MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A n d F D C w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e c o n c lu d e d w i t h o u t th e d u e d i li g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I j u s t w a n t e d t o ju s t … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i f a n y o f th e t h i n g s th a t y o u s t il l w a n te d to lo o k a t w e r e n o t w h a t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e y o u w e r e g o i n g t o r a i s e that with the board? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I f w e t h e n g o t o t h e d e c is io n i n Page 122 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e l a ti o n t o th e tr a n s a c t io n a d v is o r. M s N h a n ts i t h i s a c t u a l ly b e g i n s o n t h e 2 1 A p r il 2 0 1 6 b e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n t o e x t e n d t h e s c o p e o f th e t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r. Yo u r e f e r t o t h a t i n y o u r o w n s t a te m e n t . I f w e g o to t h a t a t p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o f h e r s t a t e m e n t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f h e r s ta t e m e n t w h ic h is b u n d l e D D 2 I t h i n k . Ye s . S o w e a r e i n E x h ib i t D D 2 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h c o n t a in s M r N h a n ts i’s s ta t e m e n t a n d w e are at page 6 paragraph 21 and as I have it there you – apologies. I m a d e a n e r r o r M s N h a n ts i . A t p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h 2 1 y o u m a k e th e p o i n t t h a t i t w a s a t t h e 3 D e c e m b e r m e e ti n g th a t fa m o u s o n e w h e r e t h e F D C d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n t h a t t h e r e is a d e c i s io n n o w t h a t a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r m u s t b e a p p o i n t e d to – i n r e la ti o n t o th e 1 5 b i ll i o n d e b t c o n s o l id a ti o n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u h a d a m e e t in g w i th M s S t i m p e l o n t h e 6 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 w h e r e i n te r ms o f h e r e v i d e n c e s h e – y o u r e l a y e d to 20 h e r a t t h e e n d o f t h a t m e e t in g – r e m e m b e r t h a t is t h e m e e t in g a t w h ic h s h e r e c o u n ts t o y o u w h a t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s a t ti t u d e i s i n r e la t io n to t h e m a n d a t e o f F D C a n d o n h e r e v i d e n c e y o u s a i d to h e r a t t h e e n d o f t h a t o h a n d b y t h e w a y th e b o a r d w a n ts t o a p p o i n t a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r a n d s h e s a i d b u t w e d o n o t n e e d i t b e c a u s e th a t w o r k h a s a lr e a d y b e e n d o n e . D o y o u r e c a ll th a t ? Page 123 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u h o w e v e r s t a n d b y th e d e c i s i o n t o a p p o i n t a tr a n s a c t io n a d v is o r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I r e a d y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u s a i d t h a t t h e r e w e r e t h r e e r e a s o n s g iv e n a n d y o u w ill s e e t h e m o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a g e 7 . I t i s th e s e c o n d p a r t o f p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . T h e r e a r e t h r e e r e a s o n s t h e r e C h a ir y o u w il l r e c a l l w e w e n t th r o u g h t h e m w i th M s S t i m p e l f o r her comment. 10 I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u M s N h a n ts i t h r o u g h t h e m fo r y o u r c o m m e n t . Th e f ir s t t h a t y o u w e r e g i v e n w a s t h a t M s S t i m p e l w a s in e x p e r i e n c e d i n t h e p o s i t io n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? That was one of the m o t iv a t i o n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e t o h a v e y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h a t . Ms S t i m p e l g a v e e v id e n c e l a s t w e e k t o s a y th a t s h e d is a g r e e d w i t h t h a t a s b e i n g a l e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n . She explained that she had been in the tr e a s u r y d e p a r t m e n t f o r t e n y e a r s . T h a t s h e h a d o f t e n d e p u t is e d f o r t h e t h e n C F O ’s o v e r p e r i o d s a n d t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r s a n d in t h a t c o n te x t s h e d i d n o t b e li e v e t h a t s h e l a c k e d t h e e x p e r i e n c e to b e a b l e t o 20 a d v is e o n t h e d e b t c o n s o l id a t io n . W h a t is y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M y c o m m e n t C h a ir y e s t h e b o a r d r a is e d a c o n c e r n t h a t th e r e is a la c k o f e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r ti s e a t th e i n t e r n a l tr e a s u r e r a t S A A a n d I a g r e e d w i t h t h e m m o r e b e c a u s e a s m u c h a s i n c o n tr a r y t o w h a t M s S t i m p e l s a i d t h a t s h e h a d e x p e r i e n c e o f te n y e a r s in t h e tr e a s u r e r – a s a tr e a s u r e r s h e h a d o n l y e i g h t m o n th s in a c ti n g Page 124 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a n d o n l y a m o n t h in th e p e r m a n e n t p o s i ti o n . S o I b e li e v e d a s w e ll a s t h e b o a r d r a is e d c o n c e r n s t h a t s h e m ig h t n o t h a v e t h e k i n d o f e x p e r t is e . A ls o i f y o u a ll o w m e t o c o m b i n e w i t h t h e o t h e r r e a s o n th a t t h e b o a r d a ls o s a id i n t h e p a s t t r e a s u r y o f S A A a n d fi n a n c e i g n o r e d t h e S e c t io n 2 1 7 f o r e x a m p l e o f t h e c o n s t i tu t io n w h e r e t h e y w o u ld n o t f o ll o w t h e p r o c e s s e s a n d a ll th a t s o th e y w o u l d lik e t o g e t a n i n d e p e n d e n t o p i n i o n o f a n e x p e r t c o n s id e r in g t h a t th is i s t h e 1 5 b il li o n m a g n i tu d e a n d th e y h a v e t o b e a c c o u n ta b l e fo r t h a t . I d i d n o t h a v e a r e a s o n n o t t o a g r e e w i t h t h e m a t t h e ti m e C h a ir b e c a u s e in d e e d w h e n I c h e c k e d 10 t h e G r o u p Tr e a s u r e r l e ft S A A in F e b r u a r y a n d t h e n M s S ti m p e l s t a r t e d a c ti n g a n d s h e w a s p e r m a n e n t f o r j u s t a m o n t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s fo c u s o n th a t th ir d r e a s o n th a t y o u w e r e g iv e n w h ic h i s t h a t th e b o a r d w a n t e d e x t e r n a l a d v i s e in r e la t io n t o th e d e b t c o n s o li d a ti o n t r a n s a c t io n . I s t h a t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e r a ti o n a l e t h a t w a s g iv e n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s th e – i n t e r m s o f t h e – y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : That as I understand your evidence was a d e c is i o n t a k e n a t t h e s a m e m e e t i n g t h a t t h e F D C l o a n o ffe r w a s s u p p o r t e d b y th e b o a r d a n d y o u w e r e m a n d a t e d t o e x e c u t e , is t h a t 20 correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir it i s c o r r e c t I w a s m a n d a t e d t o e x e c u te b u t I th e n m a d e a s u b m i s s i o n b a c k to th e b o a r d m o r e b e c a u s e o n t h e e x tr a c t o r o n th e r e s o l u ti o n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r p a r t w a s n o t r e fl e c t in g s o I w a n t e d a r e s o l u t io n to s a y a s s u c h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e j u s t s e p a r a te tw o t h in g s . I t h in k a t t h e Page 125 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 m o m e n t y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s e s th a t f o ll o w t h e 3 D e c e m b e r m e e ti n g w e w il l c o m e to t h o s e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e i t is p a r t o f t h e tr e n d t h a t d e v e l o p s t h r o u g h y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t o f t e n t h e b o a r d t a k e s a d e c i s i o n a n d th e n t h e r e a r e s t e p s ta k e n th e r e a f t e r. I w i ll p r o b e th a t w i th y o u b u t w h a t I a m in t e r e s t e d in is i t is a t t h e v e r y s a m e m e e ti n g t h a t t h e b o a r d m a n d a t e s y o u t o c o n c l u d e t h e 1 5 b il li o n d e b t c o n s o li d a t io n w i t h FD C . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t t h e y s a y w e n e e d a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r t o a d v is e u s o n th e v e r y t h in g t h a t t h e y h a v e ju s t to l d y o u t o g o a n d e x e c u te , i s t h a t r i g h t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s e x c e p t t h a t i t is tw o t h i n g s . The tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r w a s g o in g to a s s i s t t h e c o m p a n y in r e v i e w i n g t h e lo a n s , t h e s c o p e is t h e r e o n t h e le t t e r. T h e F D C w a s g o in g t o g i v e t h e funding. S o b a s i c a ll y t h e t r a n s a c t io n a l a d v is o r y s e r v i c e s w e r e o n ly g o i n g t o b e d o n e a t th e r e c e i p t o f 1 5 b i ll io n . S o it is t w o t h i n g s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o j u s t h e l p m e w it h t h a t . Th e r e w a s n o n e e d t h e n t o p r o c u r e a tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r u n t il th e r e h a d b e e n t h e 1 5 20 b i ll io n fu n d s s e c u r e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: process even if the Ye s . No I do not want to say yes. tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r for an example Th e the tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r p r o c e s s in t e r m s o f p r o c u r e m e n t w a s d o n e i n March the 20th but u n ti l the funds are in S A A’s account tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r w a s g o i n g t o d o n o t h i n g m u c h , n o t h in g r e a ll y. Page 126 of 266 the 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l h a v e to lo o k a t t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t d o e s n o t c o m e o u t in t h e m o t iv a t i o n s t h a t I h a v e s e e n . B u t w e w il l g o t o them in a moment. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I ju s t b e c l e a r s o i t w a s n o t t h e c a s e t h a t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r w a s g o i n g t o b e a d v i s i n g o n th e d e b t p o s i ti o n , t h e m e r i ts o f t h e d e b t c o n s o li d a ti o n , t h e p o s i t io n in r e la t io n t o t h e l o a n s b e c a u s e a ll o f t h a t h a d b e e n t a k e n c a r e o f o n 3 D e c e m b e r. Yo u w e r e g o i n g t o c o n c l u d e w i t h FD C , i s t h a t r i g h t ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : T h e F D C w a s g o i n g t o s o u r c e – g iv e S A A t h e funding. T h e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r w a s g o i n g t o r e v ie w t h e d e b t l o a n b o o k o f S A A a n d a d v i s e w h ic h l o a n s t o p a y fi r s t a n d w h i c h o n e s n o t t o p a y. O n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t t h e y r a is e d – th e b o a r d – w a s fo r a n e x a m p l e fr o m t h e n a k e d e y e I a m n o t s u r e i f I a m a ll o w e d to n a m e t h e b a n k s C h a ir. T h e r e w a s a l o a n t o t h e t u n e o f 1 . 3 b i ll io n t h a t w a s w i th Nedbank. Th e r a t e t h e r e w a s h ig h b u t fr o m th e n a k e d e y e y o u w o u l d t h i n k t h a t is th e lo a n th a t y o u w o u l d i m m e d i a te ly n e e d t o p a y b u t i t w a s a s t r a t e g ic l o a n b e c a u s e o n S A A’s b a la n c e s h e e t t h a t l o a n w a s c la s s if i e d a s a n e q u i t y a n d i t w a s s tr e n g t h e n t h e b a la n c e s h e e t o f S A A . 20 S o o n e o f t h e d u ti e s o f th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r w a s t o r e v i e w th e l o a n b o o k a n d a d v ic e th e b o a r d – w a s t o r e v ie w th e b a la n c e s h e e t a n d a d v ic e o n h o w t o r e s tr u c t u r e t h e b a l a n c e s h e e t . T h a t o f c o u r s e i f a f t e r t h e r e c e i p t o f 1 5 b il li o n . A n d a ls o l o o k a t t h e l o a n – t h e l e a s e s – t h e le a s e b o o k in t e r m s o f h o w t o m in i m is e a n d r e d u c e th e e x p o s u r e o f t h e e x c h a n g e r a te a n d a ll t h a t . F D C w a s j u s t g o in g t o b e b r i n g i n g 1 5 Page 127 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b i ll io n a n d t h e r e s t o f th e a n a ly s is a n d t h e w o r k o f a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s was going to be done by the company that they requested that we appoint. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e d e b t c o n s o l id a ti o n d e c is i o n w a s n o t a p r o d u c t o f th a t v e r y a n a ly s is t h a t y o u d e s c r i b e h a v i n g b e e n d o n e t h e previous year? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: No. T h e d e b t c o n s o l i d a t io n d e c i s i o n w a s b a s e d o n t h a t f a c t t h a t t h e c o m p a n y w a s p a y i n g 1 5 b i ll io n – s o r r y 1 . 2 b i ll io n i n t e r e s t i n a y e a r a n d i t w o u l d – t h e l o a n s – t h e c o m p a n y o w e d 10 lo a n s to v a r i o u s f i n a n c ia l i n s t it u t io n s t o s e v e n o f th e m s o t h e d e c is io n w a s m o r e t a k e n t o s a y c a n w e c o n s o l id a te t h e d e b t a n d p u t it i n t o o n e pot. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d s o t h a t w e c a n m a x i m is e th e b e n e f i t o f t h e in t e r e s t t h a t y o u a r e p a y in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So you do not accept that the work in a s s e s s i n g t h e e x i s t i n g l o a n s , t h e ir i m p a c t o n t h e b a la n c e s h e e t , a l l o f t h a t h a d b e e n d o n e t h e p r i o r y e a r b y th e tr e a s u r y d e p a r t m e n t. The o u t c o m e o f w h ic h w a s th is d e c i s i o n o f a s a v in g b y c o n s o l i d a t in g t h e 20 d e b t . I n y o u r v i e w t h e r e w a s s t il l m o r e w o r k t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n m y v ie w a n d i t is in b o a r d ’s v i e w a s w e l l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l m y t h in k i n g h a d b e e n th a t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a l Page 128 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a d v is o r s t h a t t h e ir r o l e w o u l d d ic t a te lo g ic a lly t h a t t h e y c o m e e v e n b e f o r e y o u g e t t h e m o n e y a n d lo o k a t y o u r s i t u a t io n th a t is S A A’s s i tu a ti o n a n d b e a b le t o a d v i s e e v e n i n te r ms o f w h i c h e n ti ty is p r o v i d in g y o u o r S A A w i t h th e b e s t a r r a n g e m e n t l o a n i n t e r m s o f t h e t e r m s a n d e v e r y t h i n g b a s e d o n S A A’s o w n s i t u a t io n o f d e b t . Th a t h a d b e e n m y t h i n k in g . M y t h i n k i n g h a d b e e n t h a t e v e n b e f o r e t h e d e c is io n is m a d e a s t o w h o d o w e g o w it h t h a t th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r s w o u l d h a v e h a d a r o l e b e f o r e t h a t b u t I h a v e n e v e r b e e n i n v o lv e d i n s o m e t h i n g a s b ig a s t h a t a n d a n y t h in g a s b ig a s t h a t , is t h a t 10 u n d e r s t a n d in g w r o n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g is c o r r e c t C h a i r h e n c e b e f o r e th e r e c e ip t o f th e 1 5 b il li o n w e s t a r te d s h a r in g t h e i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h a tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r a f t e r t h e p r o c e s s e s w e r e d o n e a n d it w a s a p p o i n t e d – w e s t a r t e d s h a r i n g t h e i n f o r m a t io n b u t I b e li e v e m in i m a l w o r k w a s d o n e b e c a u s e t h e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t t h e y r e q u e s te d w a s th e d e b t p r o f il e s o t h e y h a v e n o t – th e y n e v e r r e q u e s t e d t h e l o a n a g r e e m e n ts a n d w i th t h e b a n k s s o t h a t th e y c a n t h e n a d v i s e t h a t s tr a t e g ic a l ly t h is o n e is – y o u s h o u l d n o t t o u c h i t . T h is o n e y o u s h o u l d t o u c h i t . T h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t w e g a v e t h e m w a s t h e d e b t p r o f il e o f t h e 20 c o m p a n y, h o w m u c h w e o w in g w h o m , w h e n a r e t h e y m a t u r i n g , h o w m u c h a r e th e g u a r a n t e e s t h a t w e s t il l h a v e u n u til is e d , h o w m u c h u til is e d , t h a t is th e k in d o f i n f o r m a t io n t h a t w e a lr e a d y g a v e t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t t h e r e a s o n I a m a s k i n g t h is i s b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e s p o n s e t o M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t io n s t o b e t h a t th e tr a n s a c t i o n a l a d v i s o r s d i d n o t n e e d t o c o m e b e fo r e t h e m o n e y Page 129 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 fr o m F D C w a s i n S A A’s b a n k a c c o u n t . T h e y n e e d e d t o a d v is e w h e n th e m o n e y w a s a lr e a d y i n S A A’s a c c o u n t a n d – d i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : T h e y d id s o m e m i n i m a l w o r k C h a ir. I th in k I w a s m o r e tr y i n g t o a tt e m p t t o d is t in g u i s h b e t w e e n t h e f u n d r a is in g a n d t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Th e y h a v e s t a r t e d s o m e w o r k a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m s a y in g e v e n t h e w o r k t h a t t h e y d i d w a s m i n i m a l a n d y o u a r e r ig h t in s a y i n g t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o s ta r t b e f o r e – h e n c e w e g i v e t h e m 10 t h e i n fo r m a ti o n b u t th e w o r k w a s s o m i n i m a l t h a t th e y n e v e r e v e n in v o ic e d t h e c o m p a n y t h e m s e l v e s . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I w o u ld h a v e r e a ll y t h o u g h t th a t i f y o u a r e g o i n g to n e e d a d v i c e y o u n e e d i t b e f o r e y o u m a k e th e d e c is io n a s t o who? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s h o u l d e n t e r i n to a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h y o u m i g h t n e e d a d v ic e e v e n a f t e r fo r o t h e r a s p e c t s b u t i t s e e m s t o m e th a t t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t – m a y b e n o t t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t b u t c e r t a i n l y b e fo r e y o u c h o o s e th a t y o u m ig h t n e e d a d v ic e o n v a r io u s a s p e c t s s o t h a t y o u d o 20 n o t c h o o s e a n e n ti ty th a t is n o t a p p r o p r i a te i n t e r m s o f i ts t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s a n d r a t e s t h a t is n o t a p p r o p r ia t e f o r y o u r o w n s i t u a t i o n . I s that more or less your own … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m n o t s u r e if I a m g e t t in g t h a t l a s t o n e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A l r i g h t m a y b e I a m c o n f u s i n g y o u . Page 130 of 266 But I am 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s i m p l y s a y i n g m y e x p e c t a ti o n w o u l d b e th a t S A A w o u l d s a y w e n e e d to h a v e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r s w h o c a n l o o k a t o u r s i t u a t i o n a s a c o m p a n y. L o o k a t t h e d e b ts , lo o k a t l o n g t e r m c o m m i t m e n ts , s h o r t t e r m c o m m i t m e n ts , lo o k a t e v e r y t h i n g a n d l o o k a t w h a t is m a t u r in g w h e n a n d s o o n a n d s o o n a n d o u r i n v e s t m e n ts o r w h a t e v e r a n d s a y, a s y o u a r e lo o k in g f o r a le n d e r fo r t h i s p u r p o s e t h i s is t h e ty p e o f le n d e r y o u should be looking at. Or maybe not the type of lender but the lender w h o w o u l d b e m o s t a p p r o p r ia t e f o r y o u r s it u a ti o n is o n e t h a t c a n g i v e y o u a t le a s t t h e f o ll o w i n g t e r m s b l a , b la , b l a i n t e r m s o f m i n i m u m y o u 10 k n o w. A n y t h in g th a t d o e s n o t c o n t a i n t h e s e w o u l d n o t b e g o o d fo r y o u . T h a t i s m y e x p e c t a ti o n o f w h a t a t r a n s a c t i o n a l a d v i s o r s w o u l d d o b u t I may be wrong. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I g e t y o u C h a ir. Ye s C h a i r t h a t w a s t h e in t e n t io n f o r t h e m t o r e v i e w h e n c e w e g a v e t h e m t h e i n fo r m a ti o n . B u t I s h o u l d a d mi t th a t c e r ta in th i n g s w e r e o v e r ta k e n b y e v e n t s C h a ir. B e c a u s e i m m e d ia t e l y w h e n th e FD C c o u l d n o t g iv e t h e f u n d i n g a n d a ls o t h e ir lo a n s m a tu r i n g I n e v e r m a d e a f o ll o w u p w i t h th e m in t e r m s o f h o w f a r a r e y o u o n t h e a d v is o r y s e r v i c e ? Th e l a s t ti m e I s p o k e t o t h e m w a s w h e n I g a v e t h e m t h e in f o r m a t io n o n th e m a t u r i n g o f t h e d e b t s a n d t h e 20 in v e s t m e n ts a n d a ll t h a t . S o I n e v e r f o ll o w e d u p o n g e t t in g t h e r e p o r t b e c a u s e n o w w e w e r e b u s y c h a s in g t h e 1 5 b il li o n i ts e l f . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s N h a n t s i th e u p s h o t o f m y q u e r y i n g is t h e r e a s o n a b le o f a b o a r d o f S A A t a k in g a d e c i s i o n o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 to m a n d a t e y o u to c o n c l u d e a t r a n s a c t io n w i th F D C t o Page 131 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s e c u r e t h e 1 5 b il li o n d e b t w h ic h w o u l d t h e r e b y b e c o n s o l i d a t e d a n d i n t h e s a m e b r e a t h a p p o in t in g a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r t o a d v i s e o n t h e v e r y thing that they have decided to mandate you to implement. Can I have your comment on that? Do you regard that as unreasonable? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C a n y o u r e p e a t i t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M y d i ffi c u l ty is t h a t o n th e 3 D e c e m b e r a s I understand your evidence. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e b o a r d s a id w e g o in g w i t h FD C w e w a n t y o u 10 a n d th e a c t i n g C E O to c o n c l u d e th a t t r a n s a c ti o n w h ic h is g o in g to e n a b l e u s to c o n s o l id a t e t h e d e b t a n d b r in g 1 5 b il li o n i n to t h e c o m p a n y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: R i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n th e s a m e b r e a th t h e y d e c id e th a t a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r n e e d s t o b e a p p o i n t e d t o r e v ie w a ll t h o s e p a r t s o f S A A f i n a n c ia l p o s i ti o n w h ic h a r e s e c u r e d t h r o u g h th e v e r y a g r e e m e n t y o u h a v e b e e n a s k e d to e x e c u t e . D o e s th a t n o t s tr ik e y o u a s u n r e a s o n a b le a s t h e C h a ir w a s in d ic a t i n g e a r li e r i t s e e m s a s t h o u g h t h a t w o r k n e e d e d to b e d o n e b e fo r e t h e d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r. 20 O n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r t h e y h a d t a k e n t h e d e c is io n a n d t h e y w a n t t h e p e r s o n t o a d v ic e o n t h e v e r y t a k i n g o f th e d e c i s i o n t h e y h a v e taken. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o C h a ir I d o n o t s e e i t a s u n r e a s o n a b l e b e c a u s e o n o n e h a n d t h e c o m p a n y is g o in g t o g e t 1 5 b i ll io n , o n t h e o th e r h a n d t h e b o a r d s w a n ts s u r e ty t h a t t h e 1 5 b i ll io n is u s e d a s p e r t h e p u r p o s e o f i t. S o I s e e i t a s t w o d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s b e c a u s e t h e Page 132 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r w a s g o in g t o a d v is e t h a t p a y A , B , C d o n o t p a y t h is , r e s tr u c t u r e b a l a n c e s h e e t l ik e t h is a n d a ll t h a t s o I d o n o t s e e i t u n r e a s o n a b le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I understand your answer but your view was t h o s e r e s o u r c e s d i d n o t l iv e i n s id e i n S A A w e n e e d e d t o g o e x te r n a lly for them? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d – a n d y o u – y o u v i e w t h e d e c is i o n a s n o t u n r e a s o n a b le e v e n b e a r i n g in m in d t h a t i t w a s t a k e n o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e le t t e r a t p a g e 2 8 9 th a t w e l o o k e d a t w h e r e th e r e w a s n o r a t e s p e c i fi e d a n d t h e l e tt e r s a i d th is is n o t a c o m m i t m e n t a n d a l o t o f in f o r m a t io n t h a t y o u s a i d w a s i m p o r ta n t to b e b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n w a s n o t th e r e . S o y o u r e g a r d t h e d e c is io n a s h a v i n g b e e n r e a s o n a b l e n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g a l l o f th o s e th i n g s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I r e g a r d it a s r e a s o n a b l e o n t h e b a s is t h a t t h e l e t te r w a s u n s o l ic i t e d p r o p o s a l . S o t h e r e w a s s til l s o m e p r o b in g t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e a t o p e r a t io n a l le v e l . S o t h e r e w a s w o r k t h a t w a s s t il l n e e d s t o b e d o n e . I t h in k fo r m e t h e r e a s o n w h y I s a y it 20 w a s r e a s o n a b le is t h e b o a r d u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t th e r e i s 1 5 b il li o n c o m i n g in . A t t h e s a m e ti m e t h e b o a r d i s a c c o u n t a b l e a n d r e s p o n s i b le t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e m o n e y is u s e d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s p e c i fic a t io n b e c a u s e a t t h e e n d t h e y h a v e t o a c c o u n t . S o i t is – f o r m e i t is m o r e r e a s o n a b l e o n t h a t b a s i s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t is i t n o t th e n o r m a l p r o c e s s th a t y o u g a th e r Page 133 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 in f o r m a ti o n b e f o r e y o u m a k e a d e c is i o n ? Yo u d o n o t m a k e a d e c i s i o n fir s t a n d g a th e r in f o r m a ti o n a f t e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t is t h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: H e n c e – h e n c e a f t e r t h e d e c is io n t h a t w a s t a k e n b y t h e b o a r d a t o p e r a ti o n a l l e v e l w e f o l l o w e d th e p r o c e s s a n d g a t h e r e d t h e in f o r m a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t in t e r m s o f w h a t w a s b e f o r e th e b o a r d – i n te r m s o f FD C t h a t le t t e r r e a l ly h o w m u c h in f o r m a ti o n d i d t h a t l e t te r g iv e th e m 10 t h a t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r t h a t d e c is i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W it h o u t t a l k i n g o n b e h a lf o f t h e b o a r d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o n o t o n b e h a l f o f th e b o a r d y o u w e r e a t th e m e e ti n g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h a t w a s b e f o r e t h e m a n d w e k n o w i t w a s t h a t l e t te r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t l e tt e r o n l y i n t e r m s o f d o c u m e n ts i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly. S o t h a t l e t te r w a s – t h a t – it s e e m s t o m e t o h a v e b e e n t h e 20 k in d o f l e t te r t h a t d id n o t g iv e y o u – g iv e t h e b o a r d e n o u g h i n fo r m a ti o n t o j u s ti fy m a k i n g a fi n a l d e c is i o n lik e th a t o n s u c h a n i m p o r ta n t i s s u e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir b u t t h a t le t t e r w a s a n u n s o lic i te d p r o p o s a l h e n c e a p o l o g ie s i f I s o u n d a s if I a m r e p e a ti n g my s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: H e n c e a t o p e r a ti o n a l le v e l . Page 134 of 266 C h a i r if t h e 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 d e c is i o n f o r t h e b o a r d I w o u ld h a v e j u s t i m p l e m e n te d i t . A f t e r th a t m e e ti n g I w o u ld h a v e j u s t g iv e n F D C th e l e t te r o f a w a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I u n d e r s ta n d th a t a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u h a v e s a i d fr o m y o u r p o in t y o u w a n te d to c h e c k c e r ta i n t h i n g s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u r e a d t h e d e c is i o n o f th e b o a r d i t d o e s n o t s e e m t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h e r e is t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f i ts d e c i s i o n is d e p e n d e n t o n a n y t h i n g th a t w a s y e t t o b e – t h a t w a s s ti ll t o b e c h e c k e d . I t s e e m s t o b e fi n a l . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a g r e e w i th y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t i s w h a t s tr i k e s m e b e c a u s e if y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o m a k e a d e c is io n a n d h e r e w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a v e r y b i g d e c is i o n i n v o lv i n g b i ll i o n s o f r a n d f o r a c o m p a n y t h a t w a s i n s e r io u s debt. I f y o u a r e g o i n g t o m a k e a d e c i s io n l ik e t h a t I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a l l t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t y o u n e e d t o h a v e i s p la c e d b e f o r e y o u fir s t b e fo r e y o u m a k e t h e d e c is i o n . B u t w h a t w e s e e h e r e is a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e e v e n o n y o u r o w n e v i d e n c e c e r ta i n i m p o r t a n t i n fo r m a t i o n w a s n o t b e fo r e t h e b o a r d . N e v e r t h e l e s s th e b o a r d s s a y s g o a h e a d , c o n c lu d e a n a g r e e m e n t . 20 It d o e s n o t s a y, i t p r i n c i p le w e th i n k w e a r e in c l in e d t o g o w it h F D C in t e r i m C F O a n d a c t in g C E O lo o k a t A B C D . I f A B C D i s in o r d e r g o ahead. It does not say that, you agree? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t j u s t s a y s t a k e s te p s a n d c o n c l u d e . T h a t is w h a t c o n c e r n s m e a b o u t t h e d e c i s i o n b u t y o u h a v e m a d e – y o u h a v e s ta t e d Page 135 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 y o u r v i e w s u n l e s s t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g e ls e y o u w a n t t o a d d t h a t s h o u l d b e f in e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t h e r e is n o t h in g C h a i r t h a t I w a n t to a d d . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I m e n ti o n e d t h a t w e w o u l d g o t o t h e q u e s t io n o f p r o c e s s a g a i n b e c a u s e y o u r e c a l l t h e F D C d e c i s i o n i s t a k e n b u t t h e n y o u g o t h r o u g h a p r o c e s s t h e r e a f t e r. In relation to the tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r a p p o in t m e n t a s i m i la r t h i n g o c c u r r e d , d i d i t n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e g o t o y o u r m o t iv a t i o n y o u w il l fi n d i t a t p a g e 4 7 o f y o u r b u n d l e w h ic h is D D 2 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e w h a t s tr i k e s m e a s o d d a b o u t th is s u b m is s io n is a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e o n th e 3 D e c e m b e r t h e b o a r d d e c i d e s to a p p r o v e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r b u t t h e n a s y o u s e e o n t h e d a t e o f th is m o t iv a ti o n t h is 1 5 J a n u a r y t h e f o ll o w i n g y e a r y o u w r i t e a m o t iv a ti o n to t h e b o a r d a n d I q u o t e u n d e r p u r p o s e “ To r e q u e s t b o a r d t o a p p r o v e th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a t r a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r r e g a r d in g t h e 1 5 b i ll io n c o n s o l id a ti o n d e b t r e s tr u c t u r i n g e x e r c is e . ” H o w 20 can that be regular? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: When you say how can that be regular you a r e a s k i n g w h y d i d I d o th e m o ti v a t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A f te r t h e v e r y d e c i s i o n t h a t y o u a r e a s k i n g t h e m t o a p p r o v e h a s a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s . A s I h a v e h ig h li g h t e d C h a i r t h e Page 136 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 d is c u s s io n o n a p p o i n ti n g t h e tr a n s a c t io n a l a d v is o r w a s d is c u s s e d o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r b u t i t w a s n o t o n th e b o a r d r e s o lu t io n . I w a n te d i t to b e o n th e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s o t h a t t h e p r o c e s s e s c a n b e r u n . P r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t fo r a n e x a m p l e t o l d m e t h a t m o s t ly t h e y r u n e s p e c i a l ly i f I w o u l d s a y i t is a b o a r d d e c is io n I n e e d a b o a r d r e s o l u t i o n a n d i t w a s d is c u s s e d 3 D e c e m b e r b u t t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n a s w e h a v e r e a d i t i t d i d n o t r e f le c t i t. S o I w a s m o r e – t h is is m o r e a fo r m a l i ty t o t h e b o a r d fo r m e t o g e t th e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 A r e y o u a w a r e t h a t th e r e w a s a n o t h e r b o a r d m e e ti n g o n th e 9 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s th e r e w a s I t h i n k I a m a w a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I – if y o u g o i n D D 1 [ a ] – [c ] a p o l o g i e s t h a t is M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l s e e … C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y D D – Ex h ib i t D D [c ] ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And what page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e a r e a t p a g e 9 1 5 . 2 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: 1 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 9 1 5 . 2 CHAIRPERSON: 1915. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is u n d e r Ta b A 3 i f th a t a s s i s ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e t h o s e a r e t h e m i n u t e s o f th e S A A Page 137 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b o a r d o f d ir e c t o r s m e e ti n g h e l d o n W e d n e s d a y t h e 9 D e c e m b e r a t E m p e r o r s P a la c e . I s e e r e fl e c t e d a s i n a tt e n d a n c e i n c l u d e s y o u r s e l f , i f that correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o a ll t h e w a y t o p a g e 2 0 o f 2 1 w h ic h is t h e – it is a v e r y l o n g r e c o r d o f t h a t m e e ti n g y o u w il l f i n d i t a t p a g e 915.21. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e ju s t g o b a c k a p a g e t o 9 1 5 . 2 0 y o u w i ll s e e 10 a heading “Eleven Governance” there. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w il l s e e u n d e r 11 B t h e r e is R o u n d R o b in R e s o l u ti o n s a n d t h e n th e S A A b o a r d o f d i r e c t o r s n o te d a n d r a ti fi e d t h e R o u n d R o b i n R e s o lu t io n s a n d th e n a l l o f th e m a r e li s te d . A n d th e n if y o u g o to 9 1 5 . 2 1 y o u w i ll s e e ju s t a f t e r h a l f w a y d o w n th e p a g e t h e r e is a n e n tr y a p p o i n t m e n t o f tr a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r. Yo u w i ll s e e there: “The Board by round robin as of 23 October 2015 resolved to approve the engagement of a competent 20 tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r t o d e l iv e r, v a l id a t e o r e n h a n c e t h e A 3 2 0 / A 3 3 0 s w a p tr a n s a c ti o n a n d th e 1 5 b ill i o n f u n d i n g r e q u i r e m e n t a n d R F P. ” Is engagement that of a not th e Board competent R e s o lu t io n tr a n s a c ti o n r e q u ir e m e n t ? Page 138 of 266 of a d v is o r – approving on the the fu n d i n g 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is C h a ir b u t a ls o I th i n k f o r m e I w a s n o t h e r e a t th e ti m e b u t i t w a s a ls o d is c u s s e d o n 3 D e c e m b e r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r. S o I d i d n o t h a v e a r e s o l u ti o n . S o I w a n te d a r e s o l u t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll o n 9 D e c e m b e r d o y o u a c c e p t th a t t h e r e w a s a r e s o lu t io n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I s e e i t C h a ir. I d o n o t r e c a l l it th o u g h h e n c e I did this again. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 O k a y b e c a u s e y o u th e n w il l a g r e e t h a t i f t h e y d i d a p p r o v e it o n th e 5 t h – o n 9 D e c e m b e r i t w o u l d b e i n e x p li c a b le t o t h e n g o t o t h e m in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d a s k t h e m t o a p p r o v e t h e v e r y t h i n g t h a t is a lr e a d y b e e n a p p r o v e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a g r e e w i t h y o u b u t t h e y d id a p p r o v e i t a g a i n even the company … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S e c r e t a r y ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d t h e y d i d b u t w h a t I a m p r o b i n g w i t h y o u is w h y y o u w o u ld g o to a s k fo r a p p r o v a l o f s o m e t h in g t h a t h a s a lr e a d y taken place. 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t th e y w e r e r a t i fy i n g the – the round robins that happened. F o r e x a m p le t h i s s u b m is s io n was 23 October 2015. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H u h - u h . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: It was before my time. S o – a n d it w a s d is c u s s e d a s – a s I a m e m p h a s i s i n g o n 3 D e c e m b e r. Page 139 of 266 I t h in k t h e 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r u d e n t t h i n g th a t p e r h a p s c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d w a s th e B o a r d o r t h e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y to a l e r t m e to t h is to s a y h a n g o n th is d e c is io n h a d a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: But a memorandum was taken – taken back t o t h e B o a r d a n d I g o t th e – t h e a p p r o v a l … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O f th e tr a n s a c t i o n a d v i s o r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I n y o u r s t a t e m e n t Ms N h a n ts i y o u g i v e a d i ff e r e n t j u s ti f ic a t i o n f o r y o u r m o t i v a t io n i n J a n u a r y. I f y o u g o t o p a g e 7 at paragraph 23 … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a it . B e f o r e t h a t M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a r d o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o i t s e e m s t h a t t h e – w h e n t h e B o a r d m a d e th e d e c is i o n o n 3 D e c e m b e r t o g o w i th F D C t h e y h a d a n u m b e r o f w e e k s b e f o r e t h a t . T h e y h a d a lr e a d y t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f tr a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h o s e t r a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r s w e r e n o t appointed. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e n t h e q u e r y r e m a in s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the query remains. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e g e t t o 3 D e c e m b e r … Page 140 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e s a m e d a y t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e F D C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y w a n t a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r a p p o i n te d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s t a n d M s N h a n ts i’s e v i d e n c e s h e d i d n o t h a v e a r e s o l u ti o n t o th a t e ffe c t y e t. Th a t is w h y I t o o k h e r to 9 December … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To s u g g e s t t h a t t h e n r e fl e c ts th e r e s o l u ti o n o f the Board … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And what we are now probing is well does it m a k e s e n s e t h e n in J a n u a r y t o g o a n d a s k t h e m f o r t h e a p p r o v a l a n d I in d i c a t e d to M s N h a n ts i a s I r e a d y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u j u s ti f y th a t c o n d u c t in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 o n t h e b a s is t h a t t h a t is s o m e th i n g y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r h a d d o n e a s w e ll . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h e r e … ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o t o th a t if w e m a y. I t is p a g e 7 o f y o u r 20 b u n d l e w h ic h is D D 2 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: D D 2 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h , m i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s y o u r s t a t e m e n t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. Page 141 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u p ic k i t u p t o w a r d s t h e b o t t o m o f p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . Yo u s a y t h e r e i n a s e n t e n c e j u s t b e f o r e p a r a g r a p h 2 3 : “ B a s e d o n t h e i n s tr u c t io n a n d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n of the Board I compile the submission d a te d January 2016.” That is a reference – as I have it – to the document we were ju s t lo o k i n g a t. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n y o u s a y a t 2 3 : “Then the Board at t h e ir m e e t in g held on 1 6 J a n u a r y r e s o l v e d u n d e r I t e m 1 4 . 11 t h a t t h e B o a r d a p p r o v e s th e r e q u e s t fo r a n a p p o i n t m e n t o f tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r to a d v ic e r e g a r d i n g t h e 1 5 b i ll io n d e b t c o n s o li d a ti o n r e s tr u c t u r in g e x e r c is e . ” And then you – as I read your statement g iv e your ju s t i fic a ti o n fo r d o i n g i t in w h a t I a m g o i n g t o s u g g e s t t o y o u is t h e r e v e r s e o r d e r. 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y : “I did not foresee anything untoward when i m p l e m e n ti n g th e B o a r d ’s i n s tr u c t io n b e c a u s e b a s e d o n t h e h is t o r i c a l i n fo r m a ti o n my p r e d e c e s s o r u s e d t o a ls o ta k e i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e B o a r d a n d s u b m i t Page 142 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a m o tiv a ti o n a f t e r w a r d s . ” Do you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r M r M e y e r u s e d to d o a s i m i l a r t h i n g ? T h e r e w o u ld b e a B o a r d d e c is i o n a n d t h e n h e w o u ld s u b m it a m o t iv a ti o n f o r t h e v e r y d e c is i o n t h a t t h e B o a r d h a d j u s t ta k e n p r e v io u s ly ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I t h i n k h e r e w h a t I w a s tr y i n g t o – t o s a y a n d t o j u s t if y I t h in k w h e n I m e t w i t h t h e – in c l u d i n g y o u r s e l f 10 M s H o f m e y r - y o u i n s in u a te d t h a t i t l o o k s lik e I w a s j u s t i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s o f t h e B o a r d – ju s t ta k e t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d – a n d g o with them. I t h i n k h e r e w h a t I w a s – I w a s d o in g is to s h o w y o u th a t I d o n o t s e e a n y t h in g u n t o w a r d b e c a u s e e v e n t h e – t h e M e m o r a n d u m o f I n c o r p o r a ti o n d o e s s a y t h a t t h e C E O is t o i m p l e m e n t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e B o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o h e r e b a s i c a l ly I a m s a y in g t h e B o a r d d is c u s s e d o n 3 D e c e m b e r a n d I a m d o i n g t h e s u b m is s i o n t a k i n g – 20 t a k i n g i t b a c k t o th e m f o r th e m t o fo r m a l is e . S o I w a s tr y i n g t o s a y e v e n m y p r e d e c e s s o r d i d th e s a m e a t s o m e p o i n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l I w o u ld l ik e t o f o l lo w u p o n t w o a s p e c ts . L e t u s g o t o w h a t y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r d i d b e c a u s e y o u d o o ff e r a s ju s t i fic a ti o n t h e fa c t t h a t M r M e y e r d i d a s i m il a r t h i n g … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. Page 143 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u g iv e a s a n e x a m p le o f th a t th e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 5 2 o f y o u r b u n d le - i f w e c a n g o there. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 5-2? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 5 - 2 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Ms N h a n ts i j u s t a s a p r e f a c e to m y q u e s ti o n I d o n o t w a n t m y q u e s ti o n t o m is u n d e r s t o o d . I ta k e n o is s u e w i th t h e B o a r d ta k i n g d e c is io n s a n d m a n a g e m e n t e x e c u t i n g t h o s e d e c is io n s a ft e r w a r d s . Th e fo r c e o f th e c o n c e r n is th a t t h e B o a r d ta k e s a d e c i s i o n a n d th e n a s u b m is s i o n is m a d e t o i t r e q u e s ti n g t h a t i t t a k e th e v e r y d e c is i o n i t h a s ta k e n . D o y o u c o n te n d t h a t th e s e e m a i ls a t p a g e 5 2 s h o w t h a t M r M e y e r d id t h e l a t te r ? I n o t h e r w o r d s r e c e iv e d – w a s a w a r e o f a d e c is i o n ta k e n b y t h e B o a r d a n d th e n w e n t b a c k t o t h e B o a r d t o a s k t h e B o a r d t o ta k e t h e v e r y d e c is io n th e y h a d t a k e n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 Ye s C h a ir i f – i f y o u f ir s t l o o k a t t h e fi r s t e m a i l o n p a g e 5 2 i f y o u a ll o w m e t o r e a d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: “ D e a r C h a ir … ” I t is c o m i n g fr o m M r M e y e r. “ D e a r C h a ir, f o l l o w i n g th e d e c is i o n o f t h e B o a r d t o w i t h d r a w t h e R F P w e f o r m a ll y i n w r it i n g a d v ic e a l l Page 144 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 the recipients of th e RFP that it has been withdrawn. We shall work on and provide the Board w i t h a f o r m a l p a p e r o n d e b t c o n s o l id a t io n a s a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y. ” S o h o w I i n te r p r e t e d t h is is M r M e y e r w a s g iv e n in s t r u c t i o n b y t h e B o a r d t o c a n c e l th e R F P b e c a u s e t h e R F P d i d n o t fo ll o w t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d a l l t h a t a n d – a n d h e w a s t h e n i n s tr u c t e d t o p r o v i d e a f o r m a l p a p e r o n d e b t c o n s o l id a ti o n a s a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y. S o t h is e m a il c o n f ir m s th a t h e w a s g iv e n a n in s tr u c ti o n a n d t h e n h e is 10 a g r e e i n g h e r e t h a t o k a y I a m t a k i n g t h e i n s tr u c ti o n a n d I a m g o in g to c o m p il e th e d e b t c o n s o li d a t i o n r i g h t u p . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : v e r y d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s . M s N h a n t s i I p u t it t o y o u th a t t h o s e a r e t w o T h e o n e is a d e c i s io n o f t h e B o a r d t o w i t h d r a w t h e R F P w h ic h M r M e y e r is i n s tr u c t e d to i m p le m e n t a n d h e d o e s . T h e o th e r is th a t t h e y w a n t a fu r t h e r p a p e r o n d e b t c o n s o li d a ti o n w h ic h h e g e t s h is te a m t o w o r k o n . W e u n d e r s t a n d fr o m M s S ti m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e th a t in d e e d t o o k p l a c e . I p u t i t t o y o u th a t t h a t is n o t a s i t u a ti o n i n w h ic h t h e B o a r d t o o k a d e c is i o n t o w i t h d r a w t h e R F P a n d Mr M e y e r t h e n m a d e a s u b m is s i o n 20 t o t h e B o a r d r e q u e s t in g t h e m t o t a k e a d e c i s i o n t o w i t h d r a w t h e R F P. Do you accept that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a c c e p t th a t a n d I w o u l d a ls o l ik e t o a d d a n d s a y p e r h a p s t h e r e a s o n w h y i t l o o k s d i ff e r e n t in th e p a s t a f u n d i n g a s M s S ti m p e l t e s ti f ie d t h a t i t w a s e x c lu d e d fr o m t h e p r o c u r e m e n t – fr o m t h e S C M P o l ic y. W h a t w e w e r e d o i n g h e r e i s t o e n s u r e th a t t h e f u n d i n g Page 145 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b e c a u s e i t is n o t e x e m p te d fr o m th e S C M P o lic y. S o p e r h a p s w h a t y o u m i g h t s e e i t d i ff e r e n t is b e c a u s e n o w w e a r e f o ll o w i n g t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . T h e B o a r d w i ll t a k e a d e c is i o n a n d I w o u l d w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is in li n e a n d i t is a li g n e d w i t h t h e S C M P o l ic y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i j u s t t o b e c le a r s o t h a t th e r e i s n o d is c r e p a n c y o n t h e r e c o r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I a m n o t d e b a t in g a t a l l t h e m e r i ts o f w h e t h e r there should have been a procurement process followed. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m i n t e r e s t e d i n is a d e v e l o p i n g t h e m e … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In the management of SAA that appears to be e v i d e n c e d in y o u r s t a t e m e n t . T h a t t h e B o a r d t a k e s d e c is i o n s a n d t h e n t h e r e a f te r t h e y g e t m o ti v a t io n s fr o m m a n a g e m e n t t h a t t h e y ta k e t h e v e r y d e c is i o n t h a t t h e y h a v e ta k e n a n d I s u b m i t t o y o u t h a t e m a i l is n o t e v i d e n c e th a t M r M e y e r e n g a g e d i n t h a t b u t th a t y o u r m o t iv a ti o n o f 20 1 6 J a n u a r y is e v id e n c e o f t h a t p r o c e d u r e b e i n g a d o p t e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I g u e s s th r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s i t m ig h t b e s e e n a s a t h e m e b u t I th i n k g o i n g fo r w a r d i t is – i t is h o w i t is e s p e c i a l ly i f i t is a B o a r d tr a n s a c t i o n . A B o a r d w i ll ta k e a d e c i s i o n a n d a t o p e r a t io n a l le v e l w il l e n s u r e th a t t h e p r o c e s s e s a r e fo ll o w e d . CHAIRPERSON: I am not – I am not entirely sure that you are not at Page 146 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 cross purposes. Maybe – maybe you are not at cross purposes. Let m e tr y t h i s . W h a t M s H o f m e y r i s s a y i n g t o y o u is t h is . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . CHAIRPERSON: S h e s a y s w h e n s h e l o o k s a t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n – s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s h e s e e s th a t w h a t y o u d id i s t h a t a f t e r t h e B o a r d h a d m a d e a c e r t a in d e c is i o n y o u w o u l d a p p r o a c h t h e B o a r d a n d a s k th e B o a r d t o m a k e t h e s a m e d e c i s i o n a g a in a n d t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t y o u s e e m to – y o u m a y s e e m t o h a v e s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r u s e d to d o t h e s a m e . 10 Is th a t y o u r – d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I th i n k th e c o n te x t is th a t o n 3 D e c e m b e r c e r t a i n d e c is io n s w e r e t a k e n b u t o n 9 D e c e m b e r a c e r t a i n d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n a ls o r e l a ti n g t o tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s a n d t h e r e h a d b e e n a r o u n d r o b i n r e s o lu t io n o n 2 3 O c t o b e r a b o u t tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s b u t i n January you approach the Board – January 2016 – and – and ask them t o m a k e a d e c is i o n th a t t h e y h a d a lr e a d y m a d e . T h a t i s – t h a t i s t h e c o n c e r n . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: ( N o a u d i b l e r e p l y ) . 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d s h e i s s a y i n g th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o w h ic h r e fe r e n c e h a s b e e n m a d e a t 5 2 d o e s n o t r e fl e c t – d o e s n o t s u p p o r t a n y th in g y o u m a y b e s a y i n g a l o n g th e l in e s th a t y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r u s e d t o a p p r o a c h th e B o a r d a n d a s k i t t o m a k e d e c is i o n s t h a t i t h a d a l r e a d y made. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir th a n k y o u f o r – fo r c l a r it y. C h a ir I Page 147 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h i n k o n e I a g r e e w i t h y o u t h a t – a n d I a g r e e w i t h M s H o f m e y r – th a t I w o u ld t a k e i t b a c k t o th e B o a r d . Th e r e a s o n fo r m e t o t a k e i t b a c k t o t h e B o a r d w o u l d o n ly – i t is o n i n s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e B o a r d R e s o lu t io n does not reflect it and – and the second one maybe what it might be s e e n a s a b n o r m a l i ty is b e c a u s e i n t h e p a s t th e f u n d i n g w a s e x c l u d e d fr o m S C M P o l ic y. S o i t w a s d e r i v e d fr o m th e Fi n a n c i a l R is k Fr a m e w o r k . M a y b e h o w i t w a s d o n e w a s t h e – t h e Tr e a s u r e r w o u ld – w o u l d c o m p il e d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e n t a k e t h e m t o t h e B o a r d . S o w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g 10 o n t h i s o n e w a s fi r s tl y w e to o k it a s t h i s is a B o a r d tr a n s a c ti o n a n d t h e B o a r d h a s t o m a k e d e c is i o n s o n t h e m . S o o n i n s ta n c e s w h e r e f o r a n e x a m p l e t h e r e i s a n e x tr a c t fr o m th e B o a r d lik e w h e n t h e y d e c l i n e S e a c r e s t . W h e n t h e y m a n d a t e d m y s e l f a n d t h e A c ti n g C E t o – t o c o n c lu d e w it h F D C I d i d n o t t a k e i t back to the Board but on instances where I do not have the Board R e s o l u t i o n I w o u l d t a k e i t b a c k t o th e B o a r d . I t m ig h t h a v e b e e n a n e w t h in g a t S A A C h a ir b u t a ls o I w o u l d e x p e c t i f th a t w a s n o t t h e n o r m a li ty b e c a u s e I w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t f o r a n y i n s tr u c t io n fr o m t h e B o a r d i t h a s to h a v e a B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n b u t 20 t h e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y a s w e l l a ll o w e d m e to d o t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n s w e r t o i n v o lv e t h e p r o p o s i t io n t h a t t h e B o a r d n e e d e d t o t a k e a d e c is io n in r e l a t i o n t o t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r t h a t is w h y y o u n e e d e d to g o b a c k to t h e m a g a i n to g e t a r e s o l u ti o n . Is t h a t r ig h t ? Page 148 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ar e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e y d i d n o t m a k e a n y d e c is i o n i n r e la t io n t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r ? T h a t e n d e d a t th e C E O l e v e l. I t n e v e r w e n t to t h e B o a r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s t h e r e is a r e a s o n f o r t h a t C h a ir. After t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s – w a s c o n d u c te d b y a ll t h e c o m m i t t e e s t h e a m o u n t o f t h e – t h e a m o u n t t h a t t h e – th e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r w a s 2 .6 in c l u d i n g VAT. I t h in k i t w a s 2 .8 m i ll io n . S o b e c a u s e it w a s t h e a m o u n t it s e l f w a s – i t w a s f a l li n g w i t h i n th e – t h e a m b i t o f C E O w e w e r e 10 a d v is e d t h a t w e c a n t a k e b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d h a s a lr e a d y a p p r o v e d t h e c o n c e p t t h a t a n d y o u m u s t g o u p o n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r n o w t h e a m o u n t is l o w. Th e C E O c a n s i g n it . S o t h e r e s o l u ti o n is s i g n e d b y th e A c ti n g C E O . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t d i d n o t h a v e t o g o b a c k t o th e B o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o th a t o n e b e c a u s e a lr e a d y th e B o a r d t o o k a d e c is io n o n i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d i n r e l a t io n to t h is t h e m e t h a t I h a v e d e s c r ib e d d o y o u a g r e e fr o m a c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e p o i n t o f v i e w t h e c h a l le n g e t h a t m ig h t p r e s e n t i ts e l f w h e n t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e d e c i s i o n 20 m a k i n g o f S A A is m a y b e l o o k e d a t fr o m th e o u ts id e mi g h t b e t h e f o ll o w i n g : i f t h e B o a r d t a k e s a d e c is i o n b u t t h e n m a n a g e m e n t t h e r e is o n r e c o r d a s k in g fo r t h a t v e r y d e c is io n to b e t a k e n a g a i n . T h e r e is a t le a s t a n a p p e a r a n c e t h a t t h e o r i g i n a t o r o f t h e p e r c e iv e d n e e d is m a n a g e m e n t i n th e c o m p a n y a n d n o t t h e B o a r d . D o y o u s e e t h a t b y p r e s e n t in g y o u r s u b m i s s io n t h a t is w h a t it m a k e s i t l o o k Page 149 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 lik e ? T h a t i t w a s m a n a g e m e n t w h o i d e n t if i e d th e n e e d f o r a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a g r e e a n d I w o u l d s a y p e r h a p s th e o n ly s h o r t fa ll o n t h e s u b m i s s i o n w o u ld b e o n th e b a c k g r o u n d . I t h i n k w h e r e I fe ll s h o r t w a s p e r h a p s o n t h e b a c k g r o u n d – o n t h e s u b m i s s i o n fo r e x a m p l e I s h o u l d h a v e s a id t h i s d e c is io n w a s – w a s a lr e a d y t a k e n b y t h e B o a r d o n 3 D e c e m b e r. W e a r e ju s t m a k i n g t h i s s u b m is s i o n t o g e t t h e – th e B o a r d Resolution. 10 M a y b e I – g o i n g fo r w a r d a s w e ll w h a t I h a v e l e a r n t I w i ll t h e n i m p r o v e t h e – t h e w r i ti n g b u t I w i ll s ti ll t a k e i t b a c k t o t h e B o a r d if t h e – I d o n o t h a v e t h e B o a r d R e s o lu t io n b u t I w o u l d b e e f u p - a s y o u r ig h t fu ll y s a y – th a t th e o u t s i d e r w i ll r e a d a s if i t i s u s a s m a n a g e m e n t w h o i s r e q u e s ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e o r d in a r ily t h o s e d e c i s i o n s w o u l d c o m e fr o m m a n a g e m e n t . W o u ld t h e y n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: If it is w i th i n th e a m b i t o f m a n a g e m e n t, agree. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t t h e c o m p a n y n e e d s to o p e r a t i o n a l is e it s e l f, w h a t s o r t o f e x p e r ti s e i t n e e d s t o a s s is t i t . 20 T h a t is u s u a l ly s o m e t h i n g f e e d fr o m t h e b o tt o m u p . I s i t n o t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B o t h s i d e s b e c a u s e th e B o a r d a s w e l l n e e d s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e – w h a te v e r d e c i s i o n s th a t a r e t a k e n b y th e B o a r d e s p e c i a l ly i f t h e y fa ll w i th i n th e i r d e l e g a ti o n o f a u th o r i ty t h e y n e e d t o b e c o m f o r t a b le . S o i t w o u ld b o t h b e c o m in g - th o s e d e c is i o n s w il l b e c o m i n g fr o m b o th s i d e s . Page 150 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t d o t h e y n o t r e ly o n m a n a g e m e n t t o g u i d e them? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h a t d o y o u m e a n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e B o a r d s h o u ld g e t e x t e r n a l p e o p l e to a d v is e i t o n d e c is i o n s t h a t f a l l w i th i n i ts d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty. M u s t it n o t r e ly o n m a n a g e m e n t f o r t h a t p u r p o s e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t d e p e n d s i f t h e y d o n o t fe e l c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t i n t e r n a lly w e h a v e g o t th e e x p e r t is e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e y - i t is w i t h i n t h e ir r i g h t to r e q u e s t th a t e x t e r n a l s o u r c e s – r e s o u r c e s b e o b t a in e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Do – are you aware that the Board is r e s p o n s i b l e fo r a p p o in t in g th e C F O a n d t h e C E O o f S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e B o a r d is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a p p o i n ti n g t h e C E O w i t h – i n c o n s u l ta t io n w i t h t h e M in is t e r. T h e C E O i s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r d o in g th e r e c r u it m e n t p r o c e s s o f t h e C F O b u t r e c o m m e n d e d t o th e Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u – d o y o u t a k e is s u e w i th t h e f a c t t h a t i f the 20 SAA Board had any m i s g iv in g s about th e e x p e r tis e w it h in m a n a g e m e n t o f S A A t h e y c o u l d s t e p s t o r e s o lv e t h a t a n d g e t n e w p e o p l e i n th o s e p o s i ti o n s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o m e a g a i n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s u g g e s t e d in y o u r a n s w e r t h a t B o a r d s c a n go outside … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . Page 151 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r e x p e r t is e t h a t I a m s u g g e s t in g t o y o u s h o u l d c o m e f r o m m a n a g e m e n t a n d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n s w e r to b e w e ll if t h e r e a r e n o t t h o s e e x p e r t is e i n m a n a g e m e n t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I f t h e y fe e l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y c a n g o o u t s i d e , y e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I f – i f t h e y f e e l C h a ir. I f t h e y fe e l th a t is n o t e n o u g h e x p e r t is e e s p e c i a l ly o n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t fa ll w i t h i n t h e ir d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty. I f t h e y fe e l t h e r e i s n o t e n o u g h e x p e r t is e i t is w i t h i n t h e ir r ig h t a n d i t is c a t e r e d o n t h e S C M P o l ic y f o r t h e m to g o a n d 10 s e c u r e th e – t h e w o r k o u t s i d e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e y s h o u l d n o t b e r e q u ir e d t o b e e f u p t h e ir m a n a g e m e n t t e a m f o r th a t p u r p o s e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s t h e y w o u l d – th e y a r e r e q u ir e d to b e e f u p th e ir e x p e r tis e b u t a l l I a m s a y i n g i s t h e y a r e n o t c o n fi n e d . O n l y t h e B o a r d h a s g o t a r i g h t a s w e ll t o fe e l – if t h e y fe e l t h a t t h e r e is n o e x p e r t is e fo r t h is tr a n s a c ti o n i n t e r n a l ly th e y d o h a v e a r ig h t t o s o u r c e i t e x t e r n a lly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I g u e s s t h e p o i n t i s i f th e y f e e l – w e ll – it w o u ld b e a j u s t if i e d d e c is io n i f a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t t h o s e e x p e r ti s e w e r e 20 la c k i n g w i th in S A A . Is t h a t n o t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t w o u ld b e j u s ti f ie d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If t h e y w e r e a v a i l a b l e i n t e r n a l ly th e n th e d e c is i o n t o g o e x te r n a l ly w o u ld n o t b e j u s ti fi e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w o u l d n o t b e j u s ti f ie d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Page 152 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t a l s o c a n I c l a r i f y t h a t? A s w e – y o u t o o k m e t o th e m i n u t e s o f 9 D e c e m b e r w h e r e t h e B o a r d w a s r a ti fy i n g t h e – t h e r e s o l u ti o n s t h a t w e r e t a k e n v i a r o u n d r o b i n . T h i s tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r w a s o n e o f t h e – l e t a l o n e t h a t I r e p e a t e d i t – b u t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r w a s o n e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t t h e B o a r d – th e d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n b y t h e B o a r d in O c t o b e r. S o i t m e a n s e v e n i n O c to b e r t h e B o a r d f e lt th a t t h e r e a r e n o e x p e r t is e to r u n w i th t h is tr a n s a c ti o n i n te r n a l ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . Th e o n ly p o i n t is e i t h e r t h e y w e r e r i g h t 10 or wrong about that. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . Let us now move to the actual s e l e c t i o n o f B N P C a p i t a l a s t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r if w e m a y. Yo u – y o u r s t a t e m e n t d o e s n o t d e a l i n m u c h d e t a i l w i th t h is a p p o in t m e n t b u t both you and assessment M s S ti m p e l a g r e e d w i th of th e bids th a t were th e s u p p ly received and m a n a g e m e n t ’s supported the appointment of BNP Capital. Did you not? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s w e – I s u p p o r te d i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 M s S ti m p e l’s evidence Can I understand from your evidence because was that she r e li e d s o l e ly on the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t w a s p r o d u c e d b y G l o b a l S u p p ly M a n a g e m e n t a n d d i d n o t l o o k a t t h e u n d e r ly in g te n d e r d o c u m e n ts . W e r e y o u in t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s h e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I w a s in t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s h e r a n d a ls o t h e r e i s a r e a s o n fo r t h a t C h a ir. I g u e s s t h e o n e r e a s o n – t h e Page 153 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e a s o n w h y I d o n o t g iv e m u c h d e ta il o n th e p r o c e s s is b e c a u s e I n e v e r s a t in a n y o f t h e c o m m i t t e e s . I d id n o t s i t in B A – B i d A d j u d i c a t io n . I d i d n o t s it in E v a l u a t i o n a n d t h e S e le c ti o n C r i t e r ia . I w a s m a d e a w a r e w h e n I j o i n e d S A A t h a t w e a s t h e b u s in e s s u n i ts w e t e l l th e p r o c u r e m e n t o r t h e G S M t h e n e e d s t h a t t h e c o m p a n y – t h e n e e d s f o r – f o r y o u r b u s i n e s s b u t y o u w o u ld b e m e d d li n g i f n o w y o u w a n t th e - a n d th e d e t a i ls a s i n o k a y y o u a r e r e c o m m e n d in g A . Give m e a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts s u p p o r ti n g A . S o th e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t y o u a r e g iv e n a n d I w a s g i v e n a s 10 s u r e ty t h a t a l l t h e – a ll t h e m e m b e r s th a t a r e s i t ti n g i n th o s e c o m m i t t e e s t h e y s i g n e d a c o n fi d e n t ia li ty a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e c o m m i t t e e s a r e c o m p r i s e d o f v a r i o u s e x p e r tis e i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . S o I a ls o r e li e d o n t h e – o n t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t I w a s g iv e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e g o to t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n d o c u m e n t ? I t is in M s S t i m p e l’s b u n d l e w h i c h i s E X H I B I T D D 1 a n d it i s t h e A B u n d l e o f D D 1 a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t – i t is t h e l a s t d o c u m e n t i n t h a t fi le a t page 4-2-7. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is t h e la s t d o c u m e n t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 fi n d 4 - 2 - 7 . Ye s . Yo u g o a l l t h e w a y t o th e b a c k y o u w i ll Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t is w h e r e t h e d o c u m e n t c o m m e n c e s a n d t h e n i f y o u g o to p a g e 4 3 6 I s e e t h a t a s y o u r s i g n a t u r e c o n f ir m i n g t h a t y o u r e c o m m e n d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f B N P C a p i ta l . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h e r e is m y s i g n a t u r e ? O n p a g e 4 - 3 - 6 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 4-3-6 you w i ll see at th e top it says “r e c o m m e n d e d b y ” th e r e is a s p a c e f o r C y n th i a S t i m p e l a n d th e n a Page 154 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s p a c e f o r P h u m e z a N h a n ts i t o s i g n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ar e w e o n D D 1 A ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s w e a r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 4-3 – oh 4-3-6. Oh, sorry I was on 4-3-6.1 s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n o t a p r o b l e m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . O k a y, y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u c o n fir m t h a t is y o u r s ig n a t u r e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t i s mi n e C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u i n d i c a t e t h e r e t h a t th e b u d g e t i s g o in g t o b e c a t e r e d f o r u n d e r y o u r c o s t c e n tr e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s t h is a d o c u m e n t t h e n t h a t y o u c o n s i d e r e d in d e te r m i n in g w h e th e r t o s u p p o r t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t B N P C a p i t a l b e a p p o in t e d f o r t h e s e s e r v ic e s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A p o lo g ie s C h a ir. C a n I – I j u s t w a n t t o s e e t h e fr o n t o f t h e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a t 4 - 2 - 7 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I t a k e i t y o u w o u l d h a v e c o n s id e r e d t h is d o c u m e n t b e f o r e y o u d e c i d e d t o s u p p o r t th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o t h r o u g h i t j u s t i n tw o r e s p e c ts . I a m in t e r e s te d a t p a g e 4 - 2 - 9 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. Page 155 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o 4 - 2 - 9 t e ll s y o u a m o n g s t o th e r th in g s – s o r t o f m i d o f t h e w a y d o w n – t h e n a m e s o f t h e b id d e r s w h o w e r e r e s p o n d e d t o th is b i d f o r tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v i c e s a n d y o u w il l s e e th e r e t h e fir s t b u ll e t is N e d b a n k a n d t h e la s t b u ll e t is B N P C a p i ta l . D o y o u s e e that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n if y o u g o o v e r t o p a g e 4 - 3 - 4 y o u w il l s e e a t p a g e 4 - 3 - 4 t h e c o n s o l i d a t e d s c o r e s fo r p r ic e a n d B B B E E a r e s e t o u t u n d e r 11 . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h o s e s h o w t h e d i ff e r e n t s c o r i n g s o f N e d b a n k , R e g i m e n ts , N is e l a C a p i t a l , B P S a n d B N P. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So at the time that you supported the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t B N P C a p it a l b e a p p o i n te d I t a k e i t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a r e t h a t o n e o f th e o t h e r b i d d e r s w a s N e d b a n k . Is th a t r i g h t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n j u s t a t th e b o tt o m t o – to c o n c l u d e o n a p o in t w e m a d e e a r li e r. T h e a p p r o v a l r e q u ir e d h e r e w a s B A C s u p p o r t 20 a n d C E O a p p r o v a l . N o t B o a r d a p p r o v a l. I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e t h a t is b e c a u s e th e a m o u n t w a s o n l y 2 . 6 m ill i o n . Is th a t r i g h t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o M s N h a n ts i y o u l ik e Ms S t i m p e l w e r e r e ly i n g o n th a t d o c u m e n t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. Page 156 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f r e c o m m e n d i n g B N P. Is t h a t r ig h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e r e w e r e i r r e g u l a r i ti e s i n t h e B N P b i d s u c h t h a t i t o u g h t n o t t o h a v e q u a l i fi e d o r i n d e e d b e e n selected w o u ld you then r e v is e your p r e v io u s answer at the c o m m e n c e m e n t o f to d a y t h a t y o u s u p p o r t e d th e d e c i s i o n to s e l e c t B N P a s th e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e q u e s ti o n i s if I – i f I k n e w a t t h e ti m e – i f 10 I was told … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t th e r e a r e ir r e g u l a r i ti e s w i t h th e B N P – n o I w o u ld n o t h a v e s u p p o r te d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f I t o l d y o u a b o u t t h o s e i r r e g u l a r i ti e s n o w a n d w e w e n t th r o u g h t h e m a n d t h e y w e r e t h i n g s l ik e fa il u r e s t o p r o v i d e a c o n s o l id a t e B B B E E c e r ti fi c a t e f o r t h e J V t h a t B N P C a p i ta l w a s e n t e r in g i n to a n d I t o l d y o u t h a t t h a t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f th e te n d e r. W o u l d y o u r e g a r d t h a t a s ir r e g u la r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f I t o l d y o u t h a t i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e t e n d e r t h a t t h e r e b e a J V A g r e e m e n t p r o v i d e d i n a n y c ir c u m s t a n c e w h e r e th e b i d d e r w a s b i d d i n g i n a J V a n d n o a g r e e m e n t w a s p r o v i d e d with the bid would you regard that as irregular? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I w o u l d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f I t o l d y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s n o p r ic i n g Page 157 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 s c h e d u l e t h a t i d e n t if i e d w h a t w o r k B n P C a p i t a l w o u l d d o a n d w h a t w o r k it s J V p a r t n e r w o u ld d o d e s p i t e t h a t b e i n g a r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e b i d . I t a k e it y o u r a n s w e r w o u l d s i m i l a r l y b e t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n ir r e g u la r t o a p o i n t th e n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r e s p e c i a lly i f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t w a s s a y in g t h e y m u s t h a v e th o s e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d b u t I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f th o s e f a il in g s i n t h e b i d s u b m is s io n o f B n P C a p i t a l a t t h e ti m e ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I w a s n o t a w a r e C h a ir. Thank you. B u t w o u ld y o u – w o u l d i t h a v e – w o u ld i t n o t h a v e f a ll e n w it h in y o u r r e s p o n s i b ili t ie s t o s a t is f y y o u r s e l f w h e th e r t h e r e w a s – w h e t h e r th e r e w e r e a n y ir r e g u la r i ti e s in te r ms o f t h a t b i d d e r, w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h in g t h a t f e l l – w o u l d h a v e f a l le n o u t s i d e o f y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s t o c h e c k t h o s e t h in g s b e f o r e y o u s a y, o k a y I s u p p o r t t h is ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir th e r e a r e c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w e a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o s e e i t s ta y s i n t h o s e c o m m i t t e e s s o C h a ir, 20 if i n t h i s s u b m is s i o n t h e r e w e r e i r r e g u l a r i t ie s t h a t w e r e h ig h l i g h t e d b a s ic a lly t h a t a r e b e i n g b r o u g h t t o m y a t t e n t io n , i t i s t h e n m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o a c t u p o n t h e m a n d t h a t is w h y I’ m t h e n s a y in g , if a t t h e ti m e I w a s to l d t h a t t h e r e w e r e t h o s e ir r e g u la r i ti e s , y e s m y r e s p o n s e w o u ld b e d i ffe r e n t f r o m t h e a p p r o v a l . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t y o u s a y t h e r e w a s s o m e d o c u m e n t s th a t Page 158 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 d i d n ’ t c o m e to y o u o r t h a t w o u l d n ’ t c o m e t o y o u ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N s N h a n t s i I’ d j u s t l ik e t o p r o b e t h a t a b i t f u r th e r t h is w a s g o in g to c o m e o u t o f y o u r c o s t c e n tr e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o o t h e r b u d g e t f o r i t , is t h a t r ig h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. Would that not heighten your level or r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h e n to a s k t o s e e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s ? 10 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o n o t to s e e th e c o n fi d e n t ia l d o c u m e n ts C h a ir, i n t e r m s o f th e b u d g e t in g p r o c e s s a t S A A t h e r e a r e c o s ts t h a t a r e b u d g e t e d o n C E O c o s t c e n tr e , o n C F O c o s t c e n tr e a n d a ls o o n C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y c o s t c e n tr e . M o s t o f th o s e c o s t c e n t r e s a r e u s e d w h e n th e B o a r d , f o r e x a m p le , h a v e r e q u e s t e d t h e l ik e s o f a n e x te r n a l s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a n d I lo o k e d i n to m y b u d g e t , w h ic h is th e C F O ’s a l lo c a t io n a n d I h a d m o n e y o n i t, t h a t i s w h y I s a id i t w i ll b e c a te r e d o n m y b u d g e t b e c a u s e a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e y e a r w h e n th e b u d g e t w a s d o n e , th is d e c i s i o n w a s n o t y e t m a d e , s o I w a s g o in g t o a c c o m m o d a te i t o n m y – s o i t w a s n o t g o i n g t o – to a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t io n s tr a i g h t, 20 C h a ir, th e b u d g e t o f 2 .6 m i ll io n w a s n o t g o i n g t o tr i g g e r m e to r e q u e s t t h e c o n fi d e n t ia l d o c u m e n ts th a t I’ m t o l d I’ m n o t s u p p o s e t o s e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i w h y w o u ld th e y b e c o n fi d e n ti a l v is a vis you? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir t h e c o m m i t t e e s , I w a s t o ld w h e n I jo in e d S A A a n d w h e n I j o i n e d S A A a s w e ll I w a s a l s o m i n d f u l a n d Page 159 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c a r e fu l o f n o t m e d d li n g w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . I w a s t o l d th a t t h e m e m b e r s o f th o s e c o m m i t t e e s , t h e y s ig n c o n f id e n ti a l i ty a g r e e m e n t s a n d a l l t h a t , s o fo r m e I w o u l d s e e a s if I ’ m m e d d li n g a n d w h e n th e y ’r e r e c o m m e n d i n g t h is c o m p a n y, i t ’s li k e I ’ m q u e s ti o n w h y o th e r s s o b a s ic a lly I s h o u ld h a v e s a t o n o n e o f t h e c o m m i t t e e s . S o I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u p e r h a p s c h e c k i n g i f – I s h o u ld h a v e c h e c k e d a l l t h e s u b m is s io n s t h a t w e r e d o n e b y t h e b i d d e r s a n d h o w d id t h e y s c o r e t h e m a n d h o w d i d t h e y c o m e t o th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , I r e li e d o n t h e ir e x p e r t is e a n d t h e ir q u a l i fi c a t io n s th a t t h e y ’r e q u a li f ie d to b e i n th o s e 10 c o m m i t t e e s a n d t h e y ’r e q u a li f ie d t o r e c o m m e n d a n d w e r e ly o n t h e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i , I’ v e g o t n o d i ff ic u l ty w i t h t h e p r o p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e r e ly i n g o n t h is s u b m i s s i o n a n d y o u d id n ’t l o o k a t d o c u m e n ts t h a t u n d e r l a y t h is s u b m is s i o n , w h a t I a m p r o b i n g i s w h y y o u t h in k y o u w e r e n ’t a ll o w e d to s e e th o s e d o c u m e n ts , th a t th e y w e r e s o m e h o w c o n f id e n ti a l . Yo u a r e a s k e d t o s u p p o r t t h i s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , you do support it correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e y o u d i d it o n t h e b a s i s o f th is d o c u m e n t a l o n e a n d n o t t h e u n d e r ly i n g d o c u m e n ts . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Agreed. H o w c o u l d i t p o s s ib ly b e t h a t i f y o u w a n t e d t o r a i s e a q u e s ti o n , I’ m n o t s u r e a b o u t th is o r t h e r e ’s a p o i n t h e r e I w a n t t o f o l l o w u p o n , y o u w o u ld n ’t b e a ll o w e d to s e e t h e s u b m is s i o n s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t h in k i f I w o u ld h a v e a q u e s ti o n , I t h i n k I w a s g o i n g t o b e – t h e C h a ir o f t h a t c o m m it t e e w o u l d g i v e m e c la r i ty, I Page 160 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 d o n ’t t h i n k I’ d b e a l l o w e d t o s e e th e s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n t s , I’ v e n e v e r p r o b e d i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d o n ’ t k n o w, y o u d o n ’ t a c t u a ll y k n o w a s a m a tt e r o f f a c t t h a t y o u a r e n o t a l lo w e d t o s e e t h o s e d o c u m e n ts ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I w a s t o ld th a t I’ m n o t a ll o w e d b u t in t h is in s t a n c e I d i d n ’ t p r o b e a n y q u e s ti o n t o s e e th e u n d e r l y i n g d o c u m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o t o ld y o u th a t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I n p r o c u r e m e n t I t h i n k i t ’s a g e n e r a l u n d e r s t a n d in g a t S A A t h a t y o u d o n ’ t m e d d le w i t h – to th e e x te n t t h a t I 10 w a s t o ld t h a t i f y o u s i t i n th o s e c o m m i t te e s , o n e y o u s i g n t h e c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a g r e e m e n t , s e c o n d ly t h e m e m b e r s o f t h o s e c o m m i t t e e s t h e y l e a v e t h e d o c u m e n ts . If I’ m th e C h a ir, le t ’s s a y f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e I’ m t h e C h a ir o f B A C t h e o th e r m e m b e r s o f B A C , w h e n a d e c is i o n o r a n e v a l u a t i o n is d o n e t h e y l e a v e a ll t h e d o c u m e n ts to t h e C h a ir o f B A C . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t th a t w o u l d n ’ t – fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d o f y o u r d e s c r i p ti o n p r e c l u d e y o u fr o m lo o k i n g a t t h e d o c u m e n ts yourself, to s a t is fy y o u r s e lf before you recommend the…(intervention). M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I a s k fo r i t m a y b e . Th a n k y o u . I’ d t h e n l ik e t o j u s t a s k y o u B n P g e t s a p p o i n t e d a s a h a b i t f in a lly o n th e 2 0 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 6 , d o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. A n d c a n y o u t e l l u s , h o w s o o n t h e r e a f te r y o u s t a r t e n g a g in g w i t h B n P C a p i ta l ? Page 161 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir I w o u l d n o t k n o w t h e e x a c t d a t e b u t it w o l d b e t h r e e w e e k s , t w o w e e k s a f te r t h e y r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r o f award. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r p r e v i o u s e v id e n c e , a t n o p o i n t s i n c e B n P C a p i t a l w a s i n f a c t a p p o i n t e d d id y o u h a v e a n y f a c e - to - f a c e i n t e r a c ti o n s w i th M r M a h l a n g u , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. E v e r y p i e c e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , w e ll f o r m a l p i e c e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m B n P C a p it a l h o w e v e r c a m e fr o m M r 10 Mahlangu, didn’t it? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s v i a e m a i l C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d t h a t n o t c o n c e r n y o u , d i d y o u n o t t h in k y o u s h o u l d e n g a g e w i t h Mr M a h l a n g u d ir e c tl y ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: things were overtaken N o t a t t h a t ti m e C h a ir, a s I s a i d c e r ta i n by events because we a p p o in t e d th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r 2 0 M a r c h a n d in 2 0 A p r il F D C – t h e f u n d in g fr o m F D C f e l l o ff t h e ta b le , s o w e w e r e t h e n b u s y e n s u r in g t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o g e t m o n e y to s e t t le t h e lo a n s t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o m a t u r e i n t h e n e x t t w o m o n th s . S o i n t h a t o n e m o n t h , n o i t d i d n ’ t b o t h e r m e b e c a u s e 20 t h e r e w a s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d a l s o I’ d li k e t o h i g h l ig h t t o s a y, I t h i n k I h a d o n e d is c u s s i o n w i t h M r M n g a d i o n t h i s , a s I ’ m s a y in g I s a w h i m a s p a r t o f t h e te a m o f B n P. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ d lik e t o f o l l o w t h a t u p b u t b e f o r e t h e n I j u s t w a n t t o g e t th e c h r o n o l o g y r i g h t , y o u c o r r e c t i n s o m e r e s p e c t to r e f e r to 2 0 M a r c h a s a r e l e v a n t d a te to t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r Page 162 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b u t a s a m a t t e r o f fa c t , a s I u n d e r s t a n d M r M a h la n g u ’s e v id e n c e t h a t w a s a n i n c o r r e c t d a t e o n t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f th e tr a n s a c t io n a d v is o r, t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r w a s o n ly i n f a c t , a p p o in t e d o n th e 2 0 t h o f A p r i l a n d th a t m u s t b e s o b e c a u s e y o u r p r o c e s s e s in v o lv in g S M G o n l y o c c u r r e d l a t e r i n A p r i l, d o y o u w a n t to h a v e a l o o k a t i t , j u s t t o s a t is fy yourself? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s p l e a s e . I f y o u j u s t g o b a c k t o th e p a g e w e w e r e a t 4 2 7 y o u ’ ll s e e t h e s u b m is s i o n fr o m G lo b a l S u p p ly M a n a g e m e n t t h a t y o u 10 r e l i e d o n t o r e c o m m e n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f B n P C a p i ta l – s o r r y I ’ll w a i t f o r y o u t o g e t t h e r e , 4 2 7 , it s d a t e 1 5 A p r i l. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o y o u ’r e r i g h t C h a ir s o r r y t h a t 2 0 M a r c h w a s a ty p o a n d i t w a s c o r r e c t e d 2 0 A p r i l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t , I ju s t w a n t e d th a t t o b e c l e a r, s o i t ’s c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t t h e y w e r e a p p o in t e d o n t h e 2 0 t h o f A p r il , y o u s a id t h a t i t d id n ’ t w o r r y y o u t h a t y o u w e r e n ’ t h a v i n g e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h M r M a h l a n g u b u t y o u d i d s a y y o u h a d in t e r a c t io n s w i th M r M n g a d i w h o y o u u n d e r s t o o d t o b e p a r t o f B n P C a p it a l is t h a t r i g h t? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: 20 A g r e e d C h a ir b u t i t w o u l d b e a f t e r th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d s o s o m e p o i n t a f te r 2 0 A p r il , y o u d o n ’ t m e e t w i th M r M a h l a n g u b u t y o u d o m e e t w i t h M r M n g a d i. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And you understood Mr Mngadi to be a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f B n P C a p it a l, is th a t c o r r e c t ? Page 163 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. D i d it c o n c e r n y o u a t a l l th a t h e w a s e m p l o y e d at Nedbank at the time? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a s k e d my s e l f t h a t q u e s t io n C h a ir b u t I d o n ’t r e c a ll i t a s k i n g h i m t h a t q u e s ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Because you were aware Nedbank was a c o m p e ti t o r b i d d e r, w e r e n ’ t y o u ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s I w a s a w a r e b e c a u s e i t ’s o n t h e s u b m is s io n . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d y o u r a is e w it h h i m , h o w h e c o u l d p o s s i b ly c o m e u p in B n P C a p i t a l ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I v i v i d l y r e m e m b e r a s k i n g h i m C h a ir, b u t I t h e r e a s o n w h y, I ’ m r e l u c ta n t t o s a y I d i d b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r h i s r e s p o n s e , I t h in k h e j u s t l a u g h e d o n i t b u t I d i d a s , h o w c o m e y o u a r e in N e d b a n k a n d a l s o y o u a r e a t B n P b u t I d o n ’t h a v e a fir m – a n d I d i d n ’ t a s k i t o n W h a ts A p p s o I d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o o f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Do you accept that his appearance in BnP C a p it a l d e s p it e b e i n g e m p l o y e d a t N e d b a n k w h o w a s a c o m p e t i tiv e b i d d e r w o u l d b e ir r e g u l a r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir. B u t y o u d id n o t p r o b e i t f u r t h e r w i th h i m a t t h e ti m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d id n ’ t C h a ir. Page 164 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e s p i t e k n o w i n g o f th is c o n f lic t i n h i m o c c u p y in g b o t h p o s i ti o n s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d i d n o t C h a i r. O n e o f t h e r e a s o n s , I t h in k C h a ir, n o I d i d n ’ t I r e m e m b e r I a s k e d h i m b u t I t h i n k th e d e c e n t t h i n g t h a t I s h o u ld h a v e d o n e p e r h a p s w a s t o a s k t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d , b e c a u s e h e w a s ( i n d is ti n c t) b u t I d i d n o t C h a ir p r o b e it f u r th e r. CHAIRPERSON: But I might have missed something, did you say you d i d a s k h i m , h o w c o m e y o u a r e in b o t h p l a c e s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 Ye s b u t I th i n k h e ju s t l a u g h e d it o ff , h e d i d n ’ t g iv e m e a c o n c r e t e a n s w e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w h e n y o u a s k e d h i m , i t m u s t h a v e b e e n b e c a u s e y o u f o u n d i t s tr a n g e is n ’ t i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s b e c a u s e h e w a s – I f o u n d i t s tr a n g e , I a s k e d – I f o u n d i t s tr a n g e C h a ir b e c a u s e I th in k t h e r e w a s o n e m e e t in g t h a t w e h a d w i t h th e b a n k s w h e r e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: He was there. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: A n d n o w h e w a s a ls o i n v o l v e d w i t h B n P ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 CHAIRPERSON: He was there with Nedbank. Ye s C h a ir. Yo u s a y t h a t y o u th i n k y o u – m a y b e y o u s h o u l d h a v e a s k e d th e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h i s , is t h a t w h a t y o u j u s t s a i d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I t h i n k C h a ir i f I h a d th e ti m e , a n d i t ’s n o t a n e x c u s e , b e c a u s e w e h a d l o a n s m a t u r i n g , c e r ta in th i n g s I w o u ld n ’t h a v e fo ll o w e d th e m t h r o u g h b e c a u s e t h e d e c e n t t h in g t o d o , I t h i n k w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o f o ll o w - u p w it h t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d g e t a Page 165 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r o p e r a n s w e r t h a t w h y is h e i n v o l v e d i n N e d b a n k a n d a ls o i n B n P. CHAIRPERSON: O r m a y b e e v e n – n o t e v e n w i th th e C h a i r p e r s o n , m a y b e y o u s h o u l d h a v e i n s is t e d o n a c l e a r a n s w e r fr o m h i m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I a g r e e … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) To s a y, I a s k e d y o u a q u e s ti o n h o w c a n y o u b e i n b o t h , a t N e d b a n k a n d B n P, s o - b e c a u s e t h is w a s s o m e th in g th a t w a s r a i s i n g s o m e c o n fl ic t o f in t e r e s t . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir, I a g r e e a n d I s h o u l d h a v e p r o b e d i t fu r t h e r y e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u l d y o u h a v e g o n e to t h e C h a ir a b o u t it ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: B e c a u s e h e ’s t h e o n e w h o i n tr o d u c e d m e – s h e is t h e o n e w h o in tr o d u c e d m e a n d g a v e t h e n u m b e r s o f Mr M n g a d i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e a ls o a w a r e o f h i m e n g a g in g w i th h e r i n t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e n c o m in g t o y o u w i th f e e d b a c k a b o u t w h a t s h e h a d o r h a d n o t s a i d to h i m , is t h a t correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o m e a g a in C h a ir. I u n d e r s t a n d l a te r i n y o u r s t a te m e n t , p a r t ic u l a r ly w h e n y o u d e a l w i t h t h e W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n s y o u w e r e a w a r e th a t M r M n g a d i w a s d e a li n g w i th t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e y w e r e h a v i n g c o n v e r s a ti o n s a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a n d t h e n h e w a s f e e d i n g b a c k to y o u s o m e o f t h e in p u t fr o m th o s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s , i s t h a t r ig h t ? Page 166 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o h e w a s fa i r ly t e r m e d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s person, is that right? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. B u t y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h is c o n fl ic t you asked him but you did not take that further? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d n o t ta k e it f u r th e r C h a ir. Did you not think it was a reason to sound an a l a r m a n d s a y w e c a n n o t c o n ti n u e w i t h th e e n g a g e m e n t w i th B n P 10 C a p it a l b e c a u s e th e y ’r e r e p r e s e n te d b y a p e r s o n w h o ’s i n a c o n fl ic t e d p o s i ti o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: A t t h a t p o i n t n o C h a ir. W e h a v e h a d a f e w o c c a s io n s in y o u r e v i d e n c e w h e r e y o u a r e a b le t o a d m i t t h a t y o u s h o u l d h a v e r a is e d a n is s u e a n d m a y b e fo ll o w e d i t u p – r a is e d a n is s u e b u t y o u d id n ’t d o s o i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u s h o u l d h a v e , o n e , w e h a d th e m e e ti n g o f t h e B o a r d w h e r e y o u s h o u l d h a v e r a i s e d c e r ta in is s u e s b e f o r e t h e d e c i s i o n w a s ta k e n , y e t y o u d i d n ’ t , I d o n ’ t k n o w if t h e r e i s a n o th e r o n e b u t t h i s is a n o th e r o n e w h e r e t h e r e ’s a c o n f li c t i n v o lv i n g M r M n g a d i, y o u d o s e e 20 t h e c o n fl ic t , y o u d o r a is e th e is s u e w i t h h i m b u t y o u a l lo w h i m t o n o t r e a l ly c o m e o u t c l e a r ly a n d g iv e y o u a c l e a r a n s w e r a n d y o u d o n ’t t a k e it u p w i t h a n y b o d y. W h y d o y o u t h i n k y o u h a d th e s e s i t u a t io n s w h e r e y o u s h o u l d h a v e r e a ll y r a is e d i s s u e s a n d t a k e n t h e m u p b u t d id n ’ t w h y w h a t i s – w h a t d o y o u t h in k w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h is o n y o u r p a r t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O n th e – t h a n k s C h a ir, o n th e fir s t o n e , a s Page 167 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 I’ v e s a i d I s h o u ld h a v e b r o u g h t i t u p to t h e B o a r d , o n e I w a s n e w i n th e c o m p a n y a n d I k n e w t h a t I w o u l d f o l lo w t h e p r o c e s s e s a s w e h a v e d is c u s s e d t h a t C h a ir. O n t h i s o n e , to b e h o n e s t I a s k e d it a n d I d id n ’t – I w o u l d b e h o n e s t C h a ir I d id n ’t t a k e i t t o o s e r i o u s to f o l lo w - u p o n t h e c o n fli c t o f i n te r e s t a n d I d o n ’ t t h i n k I h a v e a r e a l r e a s o n , I t h in k a t th e b a c k o f my m in d I j u s t to l d m y s e l f t h a t t h is i s D u d u ’s p e r s o n a n d I moved on. S o o n t h is o n e I d o n ’ t h a v e a r e a l r e a s o n C h a i r b u t m o s t i m p o r t a n tly, a s m u c h a s I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e r e a l r e a s o n h e r e C h a ir, t h e f a c t t h a t M r M n g a d i w a s i n v o l v e d i n th is tr a n s a c ti o n , it m a d e m e t o l o o k 10 a t i t w i t h th e h a w k e y e h e n c e a t t h e e n d I’ m t h e o n e w h o p u s h e d d e s p i te a ll th e p r e s s u r e s t h a t I w a s g e t ti n g fr o m t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t t h is tr a n s a c ti o n m u s t b e c a n c e l le d y e s . CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t o a s k y o u t h is q u e s ti o n , b u t I’ m g o i n g t o a s k y o u s o th a t y o u k n o w w h a t ’s g o i n g o n in m y m i n d . Is i t p o s s i b le t h a t m a y b e – I t h i n k fr o m w h a t w e h a v e s a i d w h e n y o u s ta r t e d a t S A A i n 2 0 1 5 y o u h a d b e e n a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t f o r a b o u t 7 /8 hears or there about. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s C h a ir. I s i t p o s s i b l e t h a t m a y b e t h is w a s a s it u a ti o n th a t n e e d e d s o m e b o d y m a y b e t o b e m u c h m o r e e x p e r i e n c e d t o d e a l w it h s o m e o f th e s e c h a l le n g e s . I s a id I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e th e r t o a s k i t , I’ m j u s t b e i n g h o n e s t w i t h y o u , it m a y b e t h a t - I ’ m j u s t w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r, f a c e d w i t h a l l o f t h e s e c h a ll e n g e s y o u fo u n d i t e a s y t o t a k e u p is s u e s t h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e li e v e d s h o u l d b e – o r y o u b e li e v e s h o u l d b e t a k e n up? Page 168 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A l s o C h a ir, I’ m n o t s u r e i f I’ m g o i n g to g iv e y o u t h e r i g h t a n s w e r b u t l e t m e a t t e m p t …( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s it ’s g o o d i f w e a r e b o t h n o t s u r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir l o o k in g – e s p e c ia ll y a f t e r t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n a n d l o o k i n g a t t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t I f a c e d w h e r e s o m e ti m e s I fe l t I ’ m s w i m m i n g a g a i n s t th e ti d e , w h e r e I f e e l – f o r e x a m p le , l e t m e g iv e a p r a c tic a l e x a m p l e , t o w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n w h e r e it was clear that BnP for example misled us as SAA where they didn’t tell u s t h a t th e r e F S B li c e n s e w a s s u s p e n d e d a n d y e t th e y k n e w t h a t i t w a s 10 a c r i t ic a l c r i te r i a a n d w h e n I r a i s e d t h a t w i th t h e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d t o g e th e r w i t h a c ti n g C E O r a is i n g t h o s e a n d s h e w o u l d i n s is t t h a t l e t ’s c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e m , th e y ’r e g o i n g t o - l e t’s n o t c a n c e l t h e y ’r e g o in g to s u e u s a n d a ll t h a t, p e r h a p s m a y b e n o w, l o o k i n g b a c k , m a y b e j u g g l i n g w i t h th e p o l it ic s a n d j u g g li n g w i th t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a n d t h e p o li c i e s a n d r u n n i n g th e d a y - t o - d a y o p e r a ti o n s C h a ir, w it h o u t m e d d li n g w i t h w h o ’s ( A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ) a n d a ll t h a t, I t h in k it ’s a n e a s y j o b t o d o , I c a n s t il l d o i t t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: P r o v i d e t h e tr a n s l a t i o n f o r ( A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ) . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: 20 T h e tr a n s l a ti o n is w h o s e p e r s o n i s t h is , s o I f e lt m y p l a t e w a s f u l l w h i ls t I’ m j u g g l i n g w i t h l o a n s t h a t a r e m a t u r in g , I’ m j u g g l i n g w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a n d a ll t h a t b u t t h e r e a r e a ls o u n d e r l y i n g p o l i tic s w h e r e t h e r e ’s c e r t a i n p r e s s u r e s th a t a r e coming. I w o u ld t h e n s a y m y p l a t e w a s t o o f u l l , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o s a y C h a ir - I d o n ’ t w a n t t o s a y I w a s n o t t h e r ig h t p e r s o n t o d o t h e j o b , b u t I th in k t h e p o l i ti c s th a t c a m e a b o u t w e r e … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) . Page 169 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Were too much. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: One, perhaps I would say at the end lo o k in g n o w a f te r t h is tr a n s a c t i o n m a y b e I w o u ld s a y I w a s t o o n a ï v e to t h i n k th a t a l l t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s o f t h e in s t i tu t io n s a l w a y s a c t i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N h a n ts i , I’ d l i k e t o m o v e t o t h e d e c is i o n t o e x t e n d t h e s c o p e o f t h e tr a n s a c t i o n a d v is o r to s o u r c e f u n d s , i f w e m a y a n d I p ic k t h is u p a t p a g e 8 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t , p a r a g r a p h 2 4 . I n 10 paragraph 24… M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir, I ’ m th e r e . At paragraph 24 as I have it you talk about t h e t e le c o n f e r e n c e a t w h ic h t h e u n a v a i la b i li ty o f F D C to fu n d t h e 1 5 b il li o n is d i s c u s s e d a n d y o u r e c o r d th e r e t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , d u r in g t h e te l e c o n f e r e n c e th a t w e h a d o r g a n is e d t o g iv e th e B o a r d a n u p d a te o n t h e F D C , in s t r u c t e d a n d r e c o m m e n d e d th a t w e a p p r o a c h t h e s a m e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t h a t w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a t r a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r t o s o u r c e t h e f u n d i n g fo r S A A a n d th e n – t h a t is w h e n I m a d e t h e e r r o r a t t h e b e g in n i n g w e g e t t h a t B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n , i f w e c a n j u s t g o t o i t y o u ’l l fi n d 20 it i n M s S t i m p e l’s b u n d l e , s o t h a t’s D D 1 B , i t’s t h e fir s t d o c u m e n t t h e r e , I t’s p a g e 4 4 1 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. Yo u ’l l s e e t h a t i s a B o a r d r e s o lu t io n a s o f 2 1 A p r il t o a p p r o v e t h e e x te n s i o n o f s c o p e o f a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r t o in c l u d e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d i n g f o r 1 5 b il li o n f o r S o u t h A fr i c a n A ir w a y s , d o Page 170 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u m a k e t h e p o i n t i n y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t t h e r e ’s n o d e b a t e a b o u t w h o t h is tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r is a t t h e ti m e i t w a s B n P C a p i ta l w a s n ’ t i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. S o w h e n t h e B o a r d p a s s e d t h is r e s o lu t io n o n t h e 2 1 s t o f A p r il t h e y a r e a p p r o v in g t h e e x t e n s io n o f s c o p e o f B n P C a p it a l to s o u r c e fu n d s f o r 1 5 b il li o n fo r S o u t h A fr ic a n A i r w a y s , is t h a t 10 r ig h t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. S o a tr a n s a c t i o n a d v is o r w a s a c tu a l ly n o t c o r r e c t it w a s th e – i t w a s a p a r ti c u l a r tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r th e y w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t, B n P i n o th e r w o r d s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w a t t h i s p o i n t , d id y o u r a is e y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t M r M n g a d i ’s c o n f lic t b e c a u s e a t t h i s p o in t B n P C a p it a l s t a n d s t o e a r n 2 . 6 m il li o n fr o m S A A b u t if t h e ir s c o p e is e x t e n d e d t o s o u r c e f u n d s 20 f o r S o u th A f r i c a n A ir w a y s , t h e r e ’s a p o s s ib il it y t h a t , t h a t i n c r e a s e s in m a g n i t u d e , h u g e l y. D i d y o u r a is e t h e c o n c e r n a b o u t h is c o n f lic t a n d h is c o n ti n u e d i n v o l v e m e n t i n B n P ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d i d n o t C h a ir. Do you regret that now? I d o , d e e p ly. Page 171 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e y s t o o d to b e n e fi t i n th e o r d e r o f – w e ’ ll c o m e t o th e fi g u r e s 3 2 5 m ill i o n i f a ll h a d g o n e a c c o r d in g t o p la n . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: H a v in g w h a t I’ v e h e a r d w i th t h e t e s ti m o n y e s p e c i a l ly o f M r v a n d e r M e r w e , I d o r e g r e t i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll l e t’s s e e w h a t h a p p e n s a ft e r th e 2 1 s t o f A p r il b e c a u s e t h a t d e c is i o n is t a k e n , b u t y o u a g a i n , t h e n f o l l o w i t w it h a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n f o r th e s a m e d e c is i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Ye s C h a ir. Ye s a n d y o u ’ll h a v e t h e s e n s e o f t h e q u e s t io n t h e r e , w h e t h e r th a t is n ’ t t h e i n c o r r e c t o r d e r i n w h ic h t h e s e e v e n ts s h o u l d t a k e p l a c e , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t is ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t is in th e o r d e r, m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n is a p p r o v i n g th a t w e e x t e n d t h e s c o p e o f tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r b u t in t e r n a ll y w e h a d t o d o – w e h a d t o f o l l o w t h e procurement process. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d i d g o b a c k t o th e B o a r d f o r t h e d e c is i o n t h a t t h e y ’ d ta k e n d i d n ’ t y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s C h a ir. A n d i n s o fa r a s e x t e n s i o n o f s c o p e is c o n c e r n e d , I w o u ld ju s t l ik e t o p a u s e o n t h a t , t h e o n ly r e a s o n B n P C a p it a l w a s a s e r v i c e p r o v id e r t o S A A a t t h is p o i n t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r s e r v ic e s it h a d b e e n p r o c u r e d – c o n tr a c t e d t o p e r f o r m , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. I t w a s a c r i tic a l c r i t e r ia o f t h a t b i d t h a t th e y Page 172 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 h a v e a F S P l ic e n s e , w a s n ’ t i t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. S o I w a n t t o s u g g e s t t o y o u t h a t th e e x t e n s i o n w o u ld o n ly h a v e b e e n la w f u l i f t h e y m a i n ta i n e d t h a t r e q u ir e m e n t , d o y o u accept that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: A g r e e d C h a ir. Thank you. T h is e x t e n s i o n o f th e s c o p e d i d i t m e a n th a t t h e y w e r e t h e o n e s w h o w e r e n o w w e r e r e q u ir e d to s e e k a n d fi n d t h e 10 1 5 b il li o n r a n d ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir, i f y o u a ll o w m e j u s t b r i e f ly o n t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w e j u s t d is c u s s i n g w i t h M s H o f m e y r, t h e B o a r d , o n t h e 2 1 s t o f A p r i l w e g a v e t h e m a n u p d a te t h a t F D C c a n n o lo n g e r p r o v i d e t h e f u n d i n g t o S A A a n d w it h a c o n c e r n a n d th e c o n c e r n o f t h e l o a n s m a t u r i n g , t h e B o a r d th e n a p p r o v e d t h a t w e e x t e n d th e s c o p e t o th e a lr e a d y a p p r o v e d tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r t o g o s o u r c e t h e fu n d s b u t w e d i d n ’ t i m m e d i a te ly d o t h a t C h a ir, w e f o ll o w e d th e p r o c e s s . Again I e n g a g e d w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t te a m t o u n d e r s t a n d if – h o w c a n w e i m p l e m e n t th e B o a r d r e s o l u t i o n b u t a l s o t o b e i n li n e w i t h t h e 20 procurement process. T h e r e a r e c l a u s e s o n t h e s u p p ly c h a i n C h a ir, o n e i s t h e e m e r g e n c y, t h e s e c o n d o n e is t h e c o n fi n e d b i d d i n g . When w e e n g a g e d t h o s e t w o , t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n t o b e p a r t ic u l a r b e c a u s e e v e n o n M s S t i m p e l ’s s u b m is s i o n o n t h e 2 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r, s h e h ig h l i g h t e d h o w u r g e n t t h e fu n d s a r e a n d s h o u l d t h e c o m p a n y n o t … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s l e t m e i n t e r r u p t y o u , s h e p r o b a b ly w i ll t a k e y o u Page 173 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h e r e , t h e r e a s o n w h y I a s k e d f o r c la r i fi c a ti o n i n r e g a r d t o w h e t h e r t h is r e s o l u ti o n o f th e B o a r d m e a n t t h a t B n P s h o u ld fi n d t h e f u n d s a s w e ll , w a s th a t th e b e i n g tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r s I w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t t h a t t h e r o l e s s h o u l d n o t b e c o m b in e d i n o n e e n t i ty n a m e ly o f l o o k i n g f o r fu n d s , g e t t in g the funding providing the funds and a d v is i n g on that tr a n s a c ti o n , d o I m is u n d e r s t a n d s o m e t h in g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o C h a i r t h e r e ’s n o t h in g th a t p r o h ib i ts th e m fr o m p r o v id in g t h e f u n d i n g a n d a ls o a d v is i n g o n w h ic h l o a n s to b e p a id , t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g th a t e x c l u d e s t h e m t o d o th a t, t h e r e ’s n o c o n f lic t i n t h a t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: B u t i f t h e y ’ v e g o t t h e f u n d s , a r e n ’ t t h e y g o in g to w a n t y o u to ta k e th e f u n d s t h a t th e y ’v e g o t a n d n o t s o m e b o d y e l s e ’s funds? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n t h is c a s e C h a ir t h is i s e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d e s p e c i a l ly w i t h th e e m e r g e n c y a n d t h e c o n f i n e d b i d d i n g . W e d i d n o t g o o u t o n a n o p e n t e n d e r b e c a u s e o f u r g e n c y o f th e fu n d s . S o t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n w e r e q u e s t e d t h e m t o g o g e t t h e f u n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o r d in a r ily w o u l d i t n o t b e s e e n a s u n d e s ir a b l e in t e r m s o f m a y b e g o v e r n a n c e t o s a y i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o a d v is e o n a tr a n s a c ti o n o f o b ta in i n g f u n d s y o u s h o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e p e r s o n 20 w h o m u s t lo o k fo r t h e fu n d s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e in a n i n te r e s t i n y o u r c li e n t o b t a i n i n g t h e fu n d s t h a t y o u h a v e g o t a n d y o u m ig h t n o t b e o b j e c ti v e in a d v i s i n g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : N o C h a ir o r d in a r ily i f w e w e n t o u t o n a n o p e n t e n d e r t h e y w o u ld b e e l i g i b l e to a p p ly a s w e ll if t h e y h a v e c a p a c i ty to s o u r c e – t o g iv e S A A t h e f u n d i n g . T h e r o l e s a r e d i ff e r e n t. Page 174 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i c a n I j u s t u n d e r s t a n d . A t t h is p o in t in ti m e h a d B N P d e liv e r e d a t a l l o n it s tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s mandate? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o , n o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y w e r e y o u c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h t h e m n o w b e i n g c h a r g e d w i t h m o r e w o r k fr o m S A A i n c lu d in g s o u r c in g o f f u n d s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Fi r s tly w h a t I d i d a f t e r t h e b o a r d r e s o l u t i o n I e n g a g e d w i th t h e m r e q u e s ti n g a n d c h e c k in g i f t h e y h a v e c a p a c i ty t o 10 s o u r c e th e fu n d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w e r e t h o s e e n g a g e m e n t s w i th ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e y w e r e – I w r o t e a n e m a i l t o D a n ie l Mahlangu. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u n e v e r s p o k e t o h i m ? D i d y o u e n g a g e w i t h Mr M n g a d e a b o u t t h i s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t h in k I d i d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If we could go back to the 21st April because that is the board resolution. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . W h a t i s i n t e r e s ti n g fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r Va n D e r M e r w e i s t h a t o n t h e 2 2 A p r il s o j u s t t h e d a y l a t e r B N P C a p it a l s t a r t e n g a g i n g w i th h i m a b o u t s o u r c i n g fu n d s t h a t is w h e n G r is s a g a p p e a r s a g a in i n th is f u n d i n g e n d e a v o u r o f S A A . Did you in f o r m B N P o f t h e d e c is i o n t a k e n o n th e 2 1 A p r i l ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o n o t i m m e d i a te ly. Page 175 of 266 W e fir s t f o l lo w e d t h e 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t o c h e c k w i th B A C a n d a ll t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d i d n o t i m m e d i a te ly i n f o r m [i n d i s t i n c t ]. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u w e n t t h r o u g h a w h o le p r o c e s s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e i t t h a t e v e n tu a l ly t a k e s y o u t o th e 2 4 M a y w h e n t h e b o a r d a g a in a p p r o v e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Th a t w h ic h t h e y p r e v i o u s l y a p p r o v e d th a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 2 4 M a y a n d a s I h a v e t h e e v id e n c e o n t h e 2 5 M a y a le t t e r c o n g r a t u la t in g B N P o n b e i n g s e l e c t e d t o s o u r c e th e f u n d s g o e s t o B N P, d o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o if y o u d i d n o t t e l l B N P o n t h e 2 2 n d o r t h e 2 1 s t A p r il t h a t t h e y h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a p p o in t e d t o s o u r c e fu n d s w h o d o y o u t h in k m i g h t h a v e d o n e t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d m i g h t h a v e d o n e that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w i t fo r a f a c t o r d o y o u s p e c u la t e ? 20 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I s p e c u la t e b e c a u s e M r M n g a d e is h is person. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d t h e n li k e t o j u s t m o v e to t h e q u e s ti o n o f the emergency procurement. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d e a l w i th t h i s M s N h a n ts i a t p a g e 1 0 o f Page 176 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 y o u r s ta t e m e n t a n d y o u in p a r tic u l a r fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 1 t h a t is w h e r e y o u t a lk a b o u t th e p r o v is io n s o f t h e S C M P o l ic y t h a t a l lo w e d a n e m e r g e n c y p r o c u r e m e n t i n e x c e p t io n a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll b e a w a r e I t a k e i t t h a t t h a t p a r tic u la r c la u s e o f th e S C M P o l ic y h a s a p r o v i s o b e c a u s e i t s a y s th a t b a d p l a n n in g w i ll n o t b e a j u s ti f ic a t i o n f o r e m e r g e n c y p r o c u r e m e n t , a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t p r o v is i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m a w a r e o f i t C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I t h e n w o u l d lik e t o ju s t r e tu r n to s o m e o f t h e e v id e n c e w e tr a v e r s e d e a r l ie r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e u r g e n c y th a t is c r e a te d b y A p r i l i f t h e r e w a s i n d e e d u r g e n c y 2 0 1 6 i s a p r o d u c t o f n o t h a v i n g d e te r m in e d e a r ly o n i n J a n u a r y t h a t F D C w a s a n o g o ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o m e a g a i n A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It c o u l d h a v e b e e n d e t e r m i n e d th a t F D C h a d n o 20 le g a l c a p a c i ty t o e n te r i n t o th is tr a n s a c ti o n , c o u l d i t n o t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : N o d u e d i li g e n c e w a s s ti ll g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f the process that the company was embarking on. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d t o ld y o u o n th e 6 J a n u a r y t h a t F D C d i d n o t h a v e th e m a n d a t e , r i g h t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y f o r m a l c o m m u n i c a t io n Page 177 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 fr o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y t e ll i n g m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i th M s S t i m p e l t h a t y o u h a v e c o n fir m e d a lr e a d y i n y o u r e v id e n c e i n w h ic h th a t w a s c o n v e y e d t o y o u t h a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s v ie w w a s t h a t i t w a s b e y o n d t h e m a n d a t e o f F D C t o fu n d t h is ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : A g r e e e x c e p t t h a t t h e f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d S A A i s v i a t h e c h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d . T h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y w i ll w r i t e t o S A A s o o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y p e r h a p s w e e n g a g e d a n d w e d i d n o t s to p a t t h a t ti m e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y 10 n e v e r w r o t e t o u s a n d i n fo r m e d u s t h a t F D C d o e s n o t h a v e a m a n d a t e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u n e v e r f o l l o w e d u p i n S A A t o g e t a l e g a l v ie w o n t h a t – a f o r m a l l e g a l v i e w, d i d y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s I d id n o t g e t a fo r m a l l e g a l v i e w b u t I g o t a v i e w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u h a d d e t e r m in e d i n J a n u a r y t h a t FD C d i d n o t h a v e t h e m a n d a t e t h e n y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n in th e u r g e n t s i tu a ti o n y o u w e r e in A p r il w o u ld y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I w o u l d n o t b e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k y o u a g r e e d w i t h m e t h e r e is t h a t r ig h t ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A b o u t w h a t I a m n o t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t – t h e r e m i g h t – I m i g h t – th e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n a n e g a t iv e i n m y q u e s t io n s o I j u s t w a n t t o b e c l e a r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u h a d e s ta b l i s h e d i n J a n u a r y t h a t F D C d i d n o t h a v e t h e m a n d a te t o f u n d t h is tr a n s a c ti o n y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e h a d Page 178 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t o g e t t o A p r i l t o u r g e n tl y p r o c u r e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s e x c e p t th a t I a g r e e e x c e p t th a t w e w e r e f o ll o w i n g t h e p r o c e s s e s to e n s u r e t h a t 1. W e i m p l e m e n t a b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n a n d 2 . N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i f t h e y f e l t s tr o n g l y a b o u t i t t h e y c o u ld h a v e written to SAA to say FDC does not have a mandate. So I e n g a g e d w it h FD C a n d a t t h a t p o in t i n t i m e I s t il l b e li e v e d t h a t FDC had a mandate. So… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o F D C d id n o t t e ll y o u a b o u t th e i r m e e ti n g w i t h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n D e c e m b e r o f 2 0 1 5 w h e r e t h e y w e r e to ld t h e y did not have the mandate? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h e m e e ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. Yo u d i d n o t t a k e s te p s t h o u g h i n J a n u a r y t o c l a r if y t h e l e g a l p o s it i o n , c o r r e c t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I g o t t h e d i s c u s s i o n o f – w i t h th e l e g a l person. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y b u t b y A p r il i t is u r g e n t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e lo s t o u t o n t h r e e m o n t h s w h e r e y o u c o u ld h a v e g o n e t o t h e m a r k e t fo r s o u r c in g fu n d s , c o r r e c t ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a i r p e r h a p s i f y o u c a n g o b a c k a s w e l l t o t h e – a n d c h e c k h o w m u c h t i m e d i d S A A t a k e d u r i n g t h e ti m e t h e n t h e y r e c o m m e n d e d S e a c r e s t b e c a u s e i t is n o t t h r e e m o n t h s C h a ir I t h in k it is lo n g e r t h a n th a t . So the procurement process even if we went to the m a r k e t is n o t th r e e m o n t h s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Sorry my three months is January to April Page 179 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b e c a u s e I a m s a y i n g y o u c o u ld h a v e d o n e s o m e th i n g i n A p r i l t o r e a lis e t h a t F D C w a s n o t a v a il a b l e a n d t h e n y o u c o u l d h a v e u s e d th o s e th r e e m o n th s u p t o A p r i l to g o to t h e m a r k e t a n d s e e i f t h e r e w a s a n o th e r p r o v i d e r fo r a s o u r c e r o f f u n d s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a g r e e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a g r e e w i t h y o u a n d I a m a ls o s a y i n g I a m n o t s u r e i f t h r e e o r f o u r m o n th s is e n o u g h t o s t a r t t h e te n d e r p r o c e s s fr o m t h e b e g in n in g u p u n t il t h e e n d . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H e n c e m y r e f e r e n c e is S e a c r e s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e h e l p y o u w it h th a t . Th e p r e v i o u s te n d e r process. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e S e a c r e s t w a s r e c o m m e n d e d to o k a week. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o , n o , n o t h e a d v e r t – th e a d v e r t a n d everything a week? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t o p e n e d – w e c a n g o to t h e d o c u m e n t b u t w e w e n t th r o u g h it w i t h M s S t i m p e l i t w a s o n e o f th e c o n c e r n s s h e h a d a t t h e ti m e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k it w a s v e r y s h o r t l e t m e j u s t g e t i t f o r Page 180 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t c a n n o t b e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : d o c u m e n ts . A p o l o g i e s I ju s t h a v e t o m o v e in t h e s e N o a p o lo g ie s it w a s t w o w e e k s I s t a n d c o r r e c te d o n a w e e k . T h e w e e k a c t u a l ly r e l a te d to t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r. I f y o u g o to DD1[a]. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l fi n d i t a t p a g e 2 2 0 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e t h a t. S o y o u w ill s e e t h a t w h e n th e r e q u e s t f o r l o n g t e r m f u n d i n g w e n t to t h e b a n k s a s w e ll a s a ll o f th o s e e n t i ti e s t h a t th e b o a r d m e m b e r s h a d r e q u ir e d b e y o n d t h e lis t – I c a n s e e y o u d o i n g t h e c a lc u l a ti o n I a ls o w a s t o o a d v e n t u r o u s o n t w o w e e k s I th in k t h e s t a r t d a te w a s 2 3 S e p te m b e r a n d t h e c l o s i n g d a t e w a s 1 3 O c t o b e r s o th a t w o u l d b e i n th e o r d e r o f th r e e w e e k s , a r e y o u h a p p y w i t h t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I a m … CHAIRPERSON: S h e w ill g e t t h e n u m b e r o f w e e k s m u c h b e t t e r th a n y o u a n d I c o u l d g e t s h e is a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir I a m c o u n ti n g i n fa c t t h e d a te t h a t i t w e n t t o t h e b i d d e r s o n 2 2 S e p t e m b e r a n d t h e s u b m is s i o n r e c o m m e n d i n g t o t h e b o a r d w a s o n t h e 2 7 N o v e m b e r. I th in k … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h I s e e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m n o t ta lk in g a b o u t … Page 181 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p e r i o d i n w h i c h y o u c o u l d [i n d is t in c t ] M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s a d v e r tis e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o th e r e w e h a v e – l e t u s t a k e i t t h e n y o u r fu ll e r p e r i o d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e i t is – t h e o p e n i n g is 2 3 S e p te m b e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u w i ll r e c a l l t h e c u l m in a ti o n o f i t is a r e p r e s e n ta t io n to t h e b o a r d o n t h e 2 7 N o v e m b e r / M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is t w o m o n t h s g iv e o r t a k e a f e w d a y s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t is t w o m o n t h s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u c o u l d h a v e d o n e i t b e t w e e n J a n u a r y a n d A p r il ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir e x c e p t t h a t o n t h i s b e c a u s e w e f u ll y th o u g h t th a t w e w e r e g o in g t o g e t m o n e y fr o m F D C I w o u l d n o t r e a l ly ta k e r e s p o n s i b il it y a n d s a y w e w e r e n e g l ig e n t o n t h is . 20 We t h o u g h t s tr o n g ly t h a t F D C w a s – w o u l d g iv e u s t h e f u n d in g a n d a ls o b e i n g q u o t e d th e s e c t i o n t h a t t h e y a r e – th a t m a k e s t h e m t o d o – t o a c t a s a n a g e n t o n t h e F D C A c t I b e l ie v e d t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o g e t th e m o n e y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i b u t y o u d i d n o t g o a n d g e t t h a t le g a l d u e d i li g e n c e t h a t th e m e m b e r o f y o u r le g a l d e p a r t m e n t s a i d w a s Page 182 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e q u ir e d o n t h e 11 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 d i d y o u ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: L e g a l d e p a r t m e n t w a s d o i n g i ts o w n w o r k a n d I a m n o t s u r e h o w f a r t h e y w e r e o n th e p r o c e s s . T h is o n e I c o n ta c t e d – a f te r t h e – m y m e e t i n g w i t h M s S ti m p e l I c o n ta c te d th e C F O t o a s k i f i n d e e d w h a t s e c t io n a l l o w s t h e m t o b e a b l e t o g iv e S A A t h e f u n d i n g o f 1 5 b i ll io n h e n c e I s a id I a s k t h e p e r m is s io n fr o m th e C h a ir to s a y u s in g la y m a n ’s l a n g u a g e h e t o l d m e t h a t t h e y a r e a l lo w e d t o t h i n k o u t s i d e t h e b o x a n d b r i n g m o n i e s t o t h e Fr e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t Ms N h a n ts i in te r m s o f p r o p e r p r o c e s s y o u 10 w o u ld h a v e n e e d e d y o u r l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t ’s f o r m a l v i e w o n t h is t o s i g n o ff o n th e l e g a l c a p a c i ty o f F D C w o u l d y o u n o t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s . C h a ir t h e y w e r e s t il l b u s y w i t h t h e ir p r o c u r e m e n t . U r s u l a Fik e le p i w a s s t il l b u s y w i t h th e d u e d il i g e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So did you follow up regularly with her to e s t a b li s h w h a t th e l e g a l s t a tu s w a s o f F D C ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d i d n o t fo ll o w u p r e g u l a r ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u g o in g t o g o b a c k to t h e m a b o u t t h e is s u e o f d u e d i li g e n c e i f t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t c a m e t h r o u g h w a s n o t t h a t F D C 20 w a s n o t a n o p t io n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s C h a ir d e f in i t e ly I w a s g o i n g t o g o b a c k t o t h e m . C h a ir o n e t h i n g f o r s u r e w e w e r e n o t g o i n g t o s ig n a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h FD C w i t h o u t p a s s i n g t h e d u e d il ig e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i y o u s i g n e d th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o Page 183 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 e x t e n d th e s c o p e o f B N P t o s o u r c e f u n d s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h i c h p a g e i s t h a t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m g o i n g t o a s k y o u t o g o t o is a c t u a l ly in Ms S ti m p e l ’s b u n d l e b e c a u s e t h e r e is o n e i n y o u r s b u t I t h i n k i t is a c t u a ll y n o t t h e s i g n e d o n e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s g o to b u n d l e B o f D D 1 a n d i t is p a g e 450. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n th a t p a g e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i t i s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. N o w Ms N h a n t s i a s I h a v e i t y o u a c t u a ll y r a is e d t h e q u e r y a b o u t w h y y o u n e e d e d t o s i g n i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e th e r e w a s a lr e a d y a b o a r d d e c is i o n . C a n w e g o t o t h a t in y o u r s t a te m e n t i t is a t p a g e 11 p a r a g r a p h 3 3 ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e it a t p a r a g r a p h 3 3 y o u s a y th e r e : “GSM Global Supply Management through Advocate Lester gave me a c o n fi n e m e n t f o r t h a t is t h e o n e w e w e r e j u s t l o o k in g a t . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e f o r e s u b m i tt i n g t o t h e B A C a n d w h e n I a s k e d why I should be the one to sign he stated that because the board had a lr e a d y a p p r o v e d t h e n t h e C F O s h o u l d s i g n a n d i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a s e e j u s t f o r n o t in g s i n c e B A C w a s b e l o w t h e b o a r d i n te r ms o f D O A a n d t h e n y o u s a y th e B A C i n d e e d n o te d t h e s u b m is s io n a n d r e fe r r e d i t b a c k Page 184 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 to the board. Do you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o is i t t h e f a c t t h a t th e B A C w a s j u s t n o ti n g w h a t th e b o a r d h a d a lr e a d y d e c id e d t h a t y o u d i d n o t h a v e a n y m is g i v i n g s a b o u t i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y m is g iv i n g s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l o t h e r w is e I s u s p e c t it is p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u w e r e s a y i n g to h i m w h y m u s t I s i g n i t i f t h e b o a r d h a s a lr e a d y taken the decision, right? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t r e a l ly I w a s m o r e a s k in g w h y is t h is f o r m not signed by GSM why me? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y a n d h i s e x p l a n a ti o n w a s it is j u s t g o in g to g o t o B A C f o r n o ti n g s o t h a t is n o t a n is s u e , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n s w e r t h a t he gave you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : D id it m a k e s s e n s e t o i n t e r m s o f y o u r q u e r y ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t r e a l ly C h a ir m o r e t h a n a n y t h i n g I w a s a s k in g w h y a m I s i g n i n g b e c a u s e i t is j u s t a p a g e o f a c h e c k li s t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : S o I w a s a s k i n g w h y a r e t h e y m a k in g m e s i g n t h is a n d t h e n I w a s t o l d th a t I c a n s ig n i t b e c a u s e t h e b o a r d h a s a lr e a d y t a k e n a d e c i s i o n t o c o n f i n e . Page 185 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: J a b u t I a m tr y i n g t o c h e c k w h e t h e r th a t a n s w e r whether you were able to make sense of that answer in terms of the q u e s t io n y o u h a d p u t t o h i m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t r e a l ly C h a i r b u t I m o v e d o n . CHAIRPERSON: But then you signed? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Because… M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : I s i g n e d m o r e b e c a u s e I w a s c o n f ir m i n g th a t it is fo r b u s in e s s r e a s o n s w h y y o u c o n fi n i n g … 10 CHAIRPERSON: H m b e c a u s e I – w h e n I l o o k a t t h e c a p a c i ti e s u n d e r n e a t h t h e r e w h e r e y o u s i g n e d y o u r p o s i t io n d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e t h e r e , i s i t n o t o r i s i t? I n o t h e r w o r d s i t i s a d o c u m e n t a s I u n d e r s ta n d it a t p a g e 4 5 0 if t h a t is w h e r e w e a r e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m t h e r e C h a ir I a m t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: It is a … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m t h e G M . I a m t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh you are the General Manager? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y t h e n I u n d e r s ta n d . S o t h a t G e n e r a l i s m e a n t 20 G e n e r a l M a n a g e r R e g i o n a l is m e a n t R e g i o n a l M a n a g e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C o u n t r y M a n a g e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d C o u n t r y th e r e is a ls o C o u n tr y M a n a g e r s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o u n tr y M a n a g e r y e s . Regional Manager a n d S t a ti o n M a n a g e r. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. S o y o u r q u e r y h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i th t h e Page 186 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c a p a c i ty in w h ic h y o u w e r e s i g n i n g i t w a s s i m p ly o n t h e n e e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: For anybody to sign? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i I a m n o t g o i n g t o ta k e u s t h e r e w e h a v e b e e n th r o u g h it a l r e a d y b u t o n e o f t h e d i ffic u lt i e s I h a v e w i th t h is p r o c e s s a g a i n i s t h a t d e s p i t e t h e b o a r d d e c is i o n o n t h e 2 1 s t t h a t is f o ll o w e d b y m o t iv a ti o n t h a t th e y ta k e t h e d e c is i o n th a t t h e y h a v e 10 p r e v i o u s ly t a k e n . T h a t i s a m o tiv a ti o n t h a t c a m e o n t h e 11 M a y. T h e n t h e r e is y o u r s ig n i n g o f t h e c o n f in e m e n t t h a t t a k e s p l a c e s i m il a r l y o n t h e 11 M a y. A n d t h e n i t g o e s t o B A C . T h e r e i s o n e p o i n t I w a n t t o p ic k u p w i th y o u o n t h a t th o u g h . Yo u s a y it w a s o n l y g o in g t o t h e B A C f o r n o t in g , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f w e g o to t h a t a c t u a l b id a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e d e c is io n r e c o r d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e y d i d n o t n o t e t h e y r e c o m m e n d e d t h e d e c is i o n b e ta k e n t h a t h a d a l r e a d y b e e n t a k e n . I w i ll t a k e y o u th e r e i t is i n D D 1 w h ic h is M s S ti m p e l ’s b u n d le B a t 4 5 3 . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 4 5 3 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o r r y i t is i n B y o u w i ll n e e d t o b e in t h e n e x t f il e . A p o l o g i e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t th a t is t h e b i d a d ju d i c a t io n c o m m i t t e e d e c i s i o n r e c o r d o f t h e 1 3 M a y t o r e q u e s t fo r B A C s u p p o r t to Page 187 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o n fi n e a n d a w a r d t h e c o n tr a c t fo r s o u r c in g fu n d s fo r S A A G r o u p to B N P C a p i t a l a n d t h e n y o u w i ll s e e d o w n th e p a g e th a t i t is n o t r e c o r d e d a s n o t e d i t is r e c o r d e d a s r e c o m m e n d e d , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n t h e ti c k . S o a g a in w e h a v e a f te r t h e f a c t e n t i ti e s w i th i n S A A c o n f ir m i n g t h a t th e p r o c e s s e s o f g o i n g u p t o t h e b o a r d fo r a p p r o v a l a r e f o l l o w e d a lb e it t h a t th e b o a r d h a s a lr e a d y m a d e t h is d e c i s i o n o n t h e 2 1 A p r i l , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 Ye s C h a ir to f o l l o w th e p r o c e s s e s t o b e a l ig n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t a f te r t h e f a c t Mr N h a n ts i . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t d o in g i t a f t e r t h e f a c t i s p r o b le m a t ic ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir i t is y e s a n d n o i n t h is w a y. If a d e c is i o n is ta k e n b y t h e b o a r d a n d w e d o h a v e th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty to g u i d e t h e b o a r d o n t h e o p e r a ti o n a l m a t te r s . N o t j u s t to t a k e t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s a n d i m p le m e n t th e m a s t h e y a r e h e n c e w e a r e – w e a r e t h e r e e v e r y d a y. S o o n e a s m u c h a s I a g r e e a n d I a c c e p t t h a t i t is a 20 b o a r d – i t i s w i th i n t h e b o a r d ’s a m b i t it d o e s n o t e x c lu d e th a t e v e r y – a l l t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s th e r e is n o w h e r e in t h e S C M w h e r e i t s a y s th is i s a b o a r d tr a n s a c ti o n b e c a u s e i t is a b o v e 5 0 m il li o n t h e r e f o r e y o u w i ll n o t f o ll o w t h e p r o c e s s . S o w h a t w e a r e d o i n g h e r e o n a l l t h e s e i n s t a n c e s because 1. I t w a s th e f ir s t t i m e t h a t f u n d i n g f o ll o w e d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t Page 188 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 process at SAA. 2 . W e n e e d e d t o e n s u r e t h a t i t is i n l i n e w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . S o th e b o a r d y e s w o u ld t a k e a d e c i s i o n b u t w e n e e d t o r u n i t t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s e s a n d m a k e s u r e th a t i t i s a li g n e d b e c a u s e a t t h e e n d a s th e o p e r a t io n m a n g e r s w e n e e d t o b e a c c o u n t a b l e . W e n e e d t o s a y p r o c e s s e s w e r e f o ll o w e d a n d th e y w e r e in li n e w it h t h e S C M P o l ic y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i j u s t a c o r r e c t io n . It was not the fir s t ti m e th a t i t h a d fo ll o w e d p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s f o r f u n d in g r e c a ll 10 in 2 0 1 5 th e r e w a s a n e n t ir e R F P p r o c e s s f o r fu n d i n g t h e p r o d u c t o f w h ic h w a s t h e S e a c r e s t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o t h i s w a s th e s e c o n d ti m e , correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a g r e e e x c e p t t h a t a s w e ll y o u l o o k a t h o w i t s t a r t e d . I t s t a r te d t h e b o a r d t a k in g a d e c is io n a n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d a b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n t o s a y g o a n d c a n c e l a n d s ta r t t h e p r o c e s s a n d f o ll o w t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . S o t h e b o a r d t o o k t h a t d e c i s i o n a n d t h e n th e m a n a g e m e n t t h e n w e n t t o d o t h e p r o c e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t M s N h a n ts i t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n by the board in about August or September 2015 was to go out on RFP 20 a n d th e n t h a t w h o le p r o c e s s w a s f o l l o w e d . T h e p r o c e s s w a s fo ll o w e d , t h e y g o t t h e g u i d a n c e t h a t y o u s p e a k o f a n d th e n i t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e m i n D e c e m b e r w h a t th e y s h o u l d d o , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m n o t fo ll o w i n g y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e b o a r d m a d e a d e c is io n in A u g u s t o f 2 0 1 5 t h a t th e y w a n t e d t o g o o u t o n R F P f o r t h i s f u n d i n g . Page 189 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e p r i o r t o t h a t p o i n t it h a d b e e n d o n e p u r e ly i n a li a is o n w i t h th e b a n k s c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pursuant to that decision an RFP was d e s i g n e d , i t h a d to b e e v a lu a te d b y th e b o a r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e b o a r d t h e n c o n fir m e d i ts t e r m s . It then w e n t o u t t o t h e m a r k e t . T h e n b i d s w e r e r e c e iv e d . A w h o l e e v a l u a t io n 10 p r o c e s s w a s f o ll o w e d . A recommendation was made by the Group Tr e a s u r e r o n t h e 2 7 N o v e m b e r a n d t h a t s e r v e d b e f o r e th e b o a r d o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r, c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : A g r e e w h ic h is th e s a m e p r o c e s s t h a t I a m tr y i n g t o e x p la in . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t w h e n y o u d id i t it w a s th e fir s t t i m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h s o r r y a p o lo g i e s . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right let us go back to the guidance of the b o a r d b e c a u s e I a b s o lu t e l y a c c e p t t h a t b o a r d s n e e d t o b e g u id e d b y 20 m a n a g e m e n t a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t is y o u r j u s t if ic a ti o n f o r f o ll o w i n g t h is p r o c e s s a f t e r 2 1 A p r il 2 0 1 6 ’s d e c is i o n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h o w d o y o u g u i d e t h e b o a r d if y o u d o y o u r p r o c e s s e s a ft e r t h e y h a v e m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : N o C h a i r th e d e c is io n n u m b e r 1 t h e d e c is i o n Page 190 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 li e s w i t h t h e b o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w i t h o u t a n y g u id a n c e . O n th e 2 1 A p r il w h e n t h a t d e c i s i o n w a s ta k e n b y t h e b o a r d o f S A A t h e y h a d r e c e iv e d a b s o l u t e ly n o g u i d a n c e fr o m m a n a g e m e n t o n t h a t q u e s t i o n , h a d th e y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Tw o t h i n g s t h a t th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. t h i n g s t h a t c o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d C h a ir. Tw o On the 20 April when we r e c e i v e d t h e n e w s t h a t FD C c o u l d n o lo n g e r g iv e t h e fu n d i n g a s m a n a g e m e n t t h r o u g h m y g u id a n c e a n d a c ti n g C E O w e c o u l d h a v e ju s t k e p t q u i e t a n d n o t u p d a t e t h e b o a r d a n d f o ll o w th e p r o c e s s a n d s e e if i t 10 is p r a c tic a l to c o n f in e o r t o g o o u t o n a t e n d e r a n d u p d a t e t h e m a t a la t e r s t a g e w h e n w e a r e d o n e w i t h th a t p r o c e s s . O r w e c o u ld i m m e d i a t e ly a r r a n g e a t e l e c o m b e c a u s e th i s i s t h e tr a n s a c t io n t h a t is i n t h e ir p e r v ie w c o u l d i m m e d i a t e ly e n g a g e t h e m a n d s a y t h e n e w – n e w s on this we are back on square one. W e n o lo n g e r h a v e t h e f u n d in g . T h i s i s th e s i t u a t io n r i g h t n o w. S o e i t h e r w e c o u l d h a v e o n t h e 2 0 A p r il n o t u p d a t e t h e b o a r d a n d n a v i g a t e a n d e x p lo r e w h a t is t h e p o s s i b il it y to g e t t h e f u n d in g o r w e c o u ld h a v e – w e c o u l d h a v e d o n e w h a t w e h a v e d o n e . B e c a u s e w h a t w e h a v e d o n e i n d is c u s s io n a n d i n a g r e e m e n t w i th t h e a c ti n g C E O w a s l e t u s e n g a g e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y. L e t u s h a v e a 20 t e l e c o m w i t h t h e m a n d g e t – a n d u p d a t e th e m o n t h i s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i d o n o t ta k e is s u e w i th t h e u p d a ti n g o f t h e b o a r d o n th e 2 0 A p r il w h e n e v e r it is . T h e d i ff ic u l ty fr o m a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s p o in t o f v ie w i s t h a t t h e y d e c i d e d o n t h e 2 1 A p r il t o a p p o i n t B N P t o s o u r c e t h e f u n d s b e fo r e y o u h a d d o n e a n a l y s i s o f w h e t h e r t h e c o n f in e m e n t c o u ld b e j u s ti fi e d , w h a t t h e S C M P o l ic y Page 191 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r o v i d e d , w h a t t h e r a t e w o u l d b e w i th B N P C a p it a l, w h e t h e r t h o s e t e r m s w e r e a d e q u a t e to p r o te c t t h e f in a n c ia l p o s i ti o n o f S A A , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s o n t h e 2 1 s t w e h a v e n o t n a v i g a t e d a l l those options. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : F S P l ic e n c e . Th a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o m o v e t o t h e C h a ir I n o te w e j u s t b e f o r e f o u r I d o n o t k n o w if it is a p p r o p r i a t e t o ta k e a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u m a y h a v e lo s t i n t h e p r o c e s s a p o in t th a t y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I m ig h t b e t h i n k in g I k n o w w h a t th e p o i n t w a s b u t I may be mistaken. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is e n ti r e ly p o s s i b l e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e I w il l a s k y o u a q u e s ti o n t h a t I w a n t e d t o a s k . I s ti ll h a v e s o m e c o n c e r n a b o u t w h y i t w a s th o u g h t n e c e s s a r y to a s k t h e b o a r d t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n t h a t i t h a d a lr e a d y m a d e ? Because we have a few of these of instances. I can understand if you are not a w a r e t h a t t h e b o a r d h a s a l r e a d y m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n th a t i f y o u d e a li n g w i t h a m a t t e r a n d y o u t h i n k a b o a r d d e c is io n i s n e c e s s a r y t h a t y o u 20 a p p r o a c h t h e b o a r d w h i c h y o u m a y h a v e s a i d w a s th e c a s e w i t h r e g a r d to when in January you approached the board. But I am not sure w h e t h e r e a c h ti m e th e r e h a s b e e n a n i n s t a n c e o u t o f th e i n s t a n c e s t h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s d e a lt w i t h in h e r q u e s t io n s . E a c h ti m e th e r e h a s b e e n a n in s t a n c e w h e r e y o u a s k i n g t h e b o a r d f o r a d e c is i o n w h e r e it h a s a lr e a d y m a d e a d e c i s i o n w h e t h e r i t w a s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e u n a w a r e th a t Page 192 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 it h a d m a d e a d e c i s i o n ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir i t m i g h t b e – t h i s r e a s o n m i g h t – t w o r e a s o n s . T h e fir s t o n e w o u l d b e p e r h a p s w h e n th e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y is c a p t u r i n g fr o m th e m i n u te s t h e r e s o l u ti o n s is n o t t a k i n g a ll t h e r e s o l u ti o n s b e c a u s e w h e n y o u g o t o t h e b u s i n e s s a n d g iv e u p d a t e a f t e r t h e m e e t in g t h a t t h e b o a r d h a s r e s o lv e d A B C D t h e y w a n t a b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n . S o i f it i s – i f t h e r e i s n o b o a r d r e s o lu t io n w e t h e n fo r c e d to d o t h e s u b m is s i o n a n d g i v e i t b a c k t o th e b o a r d s o t h a t w e c a n h a v e t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s . S o t h a t is w h y I a m s a y in g i t t w o th i n g s . E i t h e r a s a 10 c o m p a n y w e a r e f ix a te d t h a t w e c a n d o t h i n g s b y s e e in g th e R o u n d R o b in – th e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n i ts e lf o r p e r h a p s t h e r e is a n i m p r o v e m e n t t h a t i s n e e d e d o n t h e c a p tu r i n g o f t h e r e s o l u ti o n s e x t r a c t i n g t h e m fr o m t h e m i n u t e s o r fr o m th e d is c u s s io n s t h a t h a p p e n e d i n th e b o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: A r e y o u s a y in g t h a t s o m e ti m e s y o u c o u l d h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e y o u d o k n o w t h a t th e b o a r d d i d m a k e a d e c is io n b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g o t th e m i n u t e s b u t y o u d o n o t h a v e a d o c u m e n t s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n t s a y i n g t h is i s a r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e b o a r d a n d t h e r e f o r e o n s o m e o f t h e o c c a s i o n s it m a y b e th a t y o u a s k e d t h e b o a r d f o r a r e s o lu t io n n o t b e c a u s e y o u a r e u n a w a r e th a t t h e y h a v e m a d e t h e 20 d e c is i o n b u t th a t y o u p a r t ic u l a r l y w a n t a s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n t m a r k e d R e s o l u t i o n o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : N o t b e c a u s e C h a ir I w a n t a p a r ti c u l a r – o n e I w o u ld b e a w a r e t h a t a d i s c u s s io n w a s h e ld i n t h e b o a r d . B u t n o w w h e n I a m g iv in g t h e d i s c u s s io n o r th e d e c is i o n t o t h e b u s i n e s s f e e d in g i t b a c k to t h e b u s i n e s s f o r u s to i m p l e m e n t - t h e y w a n t a b o a r d r e s o l u t i o n Page 193 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . I a c c e p t t h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e i n a m e e t in g th e b o a r d d is c u s s e s a n i s s u e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o e s n o t m a k e a d e c is io n . I a m n o t d e a l in g w i t h t h a t s it u a ti o n . I a m d e a l in g w i t h a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e a – t h e b o a r d h a s d is c u s s e d a n is s u e a n d h a s m a d e a d e c i s io n a n d w h e n y o u r e a d t h e m i n u t e s i t i s c le a r t h a t i t m a d e a d e c is io n w h e t h e r i n t h a t s i t u a t io n w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t y o u w o u ld s ti ll a p p r o a c h t h e b o a r d a f te r w a r d s a n d a s k f o r a r e s o lu t io n o r a d e c i s i o n o n t h e m a tt e r ? 10 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a i r a n e x a m p l e is th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s d is c u s s e d i n th e – a n d r e s o lv e d t h a t w e n e e d to a p p o in t a t r a n s a c t io n a l a d v is o r o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ys. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t i t w a s n o t o n t h e r e s o l u ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: S o I n e e d e d a r e s o lu t io n h e n c e t h e r e s u b m is s io n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : S o m o r e I a m s a y i n g C h a ir c e r t a i n d e c is i o n s w o u ld b e t a k e n i n th e – i n th e b o a r d m e e ti n g t h r o u g h d is c u s s i o n s a n d t h e r e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a s u b m is s io n fr o m t h e b u s in e s s u n i ts a n d a l l that. S o a d is c u s s i o n w o u l d b e i n it i a t e d b y th e b o a r d a n d a d e c is io n w o u ld b e t a k e n b y t h e b o a r d . Page 194 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : B u t it w il l n o t tr a n s p ir e w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e r e s o l u ti o n s i t is n o t th e r e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o - s o i f y o u n e e d e d a d e c is io n o f t h e b o a r d to b e u n d e r th e r e s o l u ti o n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e m in u t e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f i t w a s – it is c l e a r f r o m t h e m i n u t e s a s p a r t o f – it is 10 o n e o f t h e r e s o lu t io n s o f th e b o a r d t h e n i t i s fi n e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W e w i ll n o t g o b a c k . Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d b e c o n t e n t w i t h t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t g o b a c k to th e b o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e – w h e n y o u d o t h e a u d it CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : O n e o f th e t h in g s w h e n y o u s t a r t s a y i n g t h e b o a r d h a s r e s o lv e d , h a s a p p r o v e d t h a t y o u m u s t d o A B C . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Yo u m u s t h a v e t h e b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o w h e r e y o u w o u l d g o b a c k t o t h e b o a r d is w h e r e e i t h e r t h e m i n u te s r e f le c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n b u t o n a n Page 195 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 is s u e b u t t h e r e is n o r e s o l u ti o n o r t h e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n a n d a d e c is i o n b u t th a t d e c i s i o n d o e s n o t fa ll – i s n o t r e fl e c t e d a s p a r t o f th e r e s o l u ti o n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Then in that case too you would feel the need. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I w il l g o b a c k y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To a p p r o a c h t h e b o a r d f o r a r e s o l u t i o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 I n th e la t t e r c a s e w h e r e i t w a s c le a r is th e d e c is i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n y o u w o u ld n o t n e e d t o j u s t g o to t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y t o p r e p a r e a r e s o l u t i o n b e c a u s e t h a t i s c l e a r – i t is c l e a r t h e b o a r d t o o k a d e c is io n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: L a t t e r c a s e b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n e e d t o g o b a c k . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: L a t t e r c a s e b e in g t h e w h ic h o n e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a m j u s t t a lk i n g i n g e n e r a l . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: M o s t ly c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y w o u l d n o t – w e h a v e tr ie d t h a t b u t t h e y v e r y s tr ic t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: They want to go to get the approval of the board. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i j u s t t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w e s h o u l d ta k e it a t q u a r te r p a s t? Page 196 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t fi n e u n l e s s – w e w i ll t a k e t h e b r e a k a t q u a r te r p a s t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i s o if a d e c is i o n ju s t to fo ll o w u p la s t ly o n t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n s . I f a d e c i s io n h a d b e e n t a k e n a t t h e b o a r d a n d y o u d i d n o t h a v e a r e s o l u ti o n y e t y o u w o u ld j u s t n e e d to g o a n d g e t t h a t p i e c e o f p a p e r r e c o r d i n g t h e r e s o l u ti o n , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Yo u w o u l d n o t h a v e t o g o th r o u g h a w h o l e process. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f m a k i n g s u b m i s s io n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e d e c is i o n t h a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d l ik e t o n o w m o v e t o t h e F S P l ic e n c e is s u e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 B e c a u s e t h i s is s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o m e s u p i n r e l a ti o n t o B N P ’s a p p o in t m e n t o n a n e x t e n d e d s c o p e t o s o u r c e f u n d s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d e a l w i th t h is a t p a g e 1 5 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t if w e c a n g o t h e r e . M s N h a n t s i a n d i t i s r e a l ly a r o u n d p a r a g r a p h s 5 0 and 51 on page 15 as I read your statement. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. Page 197 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d e a l w i t h th i s q u e s ti o n a b o u t t h e ir fa il u r e t o h a v e u p d a t e d S A A a b o u t th e f a c t t h a t t h e ir F S B l i c e n c e h a d b e e n suspended, correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w M s N h a n t s i I ju s t w a n t t o c l a r i fy w h e n y o u w e r e n o t if i e d th a t t h e ir F S P l ic e n c e h a d b e e n s u s p e n d e d ? B e c a u s e a s I r e a d t h e s e tw o p a r a g r a p h s y o u d o n o t a c t u a ll y g iv e a d a t e t o i t b u t y o u d o l o c a te i t in t i m e in s o f a r a s t h e r e w a s a l e t te r fr o m W e b b e r W e n tz e l , y o u s e e t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 5 1 y o u s a y : “ I n d e e d a l e tt e r fr o m W e b b e r W e n tz e l a c ti n g o n 10 behalf of O U TA was sent to our a c t in g CEO d e m a n d i n g t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t n o t b e c o n c lu d e d w i th B N P C a p it a l a n d a n y i n te n ti o n to p a y t h e m a n y m o n e y s h o u ld b e p u t t o a s to p . ” Yo u s a y : “ D u r i n g t h is ti m e w e w e r e n o t p l a n n i n g t o p a y a n y th in g t o B N P C a p it a l. A f t e r h e a r i n g o f th is I c a l l e d F S B m y s e l f a n d a s k e d i f B N P C a p it a l w a s i n g o o d s t a n d i n g th a t is w h e n I r e c e i v e d a l e t t e r t h a t 20 s h o w s B N P C a p i ta l w a s s u s p e n d e d in A p r il a lr e a d y b u t t h e y f a i l e d t o d is c l o s e t h i s i n fo r m a t i o n . ” Do you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f I t o l d y o u t h e W e b b e r W e n t z e l le t t e r w a s d a t e d t h e 7 J u ly a n d I t o l d y o u t h a t t h a t le t t e r w a s d a t e d t h e 8 J u l y I Page 198 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c a n t a k e y o u t o b o th o f t h o s e w o u l d i t b e c o n s i s te n t w it h y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t t h a t is t h e fi r s t t i m e a t w h ic h y o u w e r e a l e r t e d t o t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f t h e lic e n c e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y t h a t is f a ir ly i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e w i ll b e t h a t h e n o ti f ie d y o u a s e a r l y a s t h e 1 3 M a y about that fact. Okay? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s C h a ir. A ll o w m e – t h e r e is a l e t te r w h e n w e r e c e i v e d t h a t l e t te r t o M r M a h l a n g u t h a t r e fe r s a n d s a y t h e y t o ld u s 10 o n th e 11 – o n th e 1 3 M a y I r e s p o n d e d a n d s a id t h e y m u s t t e l l u s w h o t h e y s e n t th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o b e c a u s e w e n e v e r r e c e iv e d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h le t u s l o o k a t t h a t t h e n p l e a s e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s p l e a s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h a t is s o m e t h i n g I w a s u n a w a r e o f . I f you go… M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : S o i t w o u l d b e m y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a f t e r th e ir le t t e r. F ir s t ly I w o u l d lik e t o c o n f ir m y e s i t w a s b e t w e e n th e 7 t h a n d t h e 8 t h J u ly a n d it w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t w e k n e w a b o u t t h e ir F S B l ic e n c e being suspended. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : T h e y th e n w i t h – w e t h e n w r o te t o t h e m t h e y r e s p o n d e d a n d t h e y s a i d e x a c t ly w h a t y o u s a y i n g b u t I a m tr y i n g t o navigate to your… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t le t m e t a k e y o u t h e r e . i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e m a y b e s ta r t w i t h th e 1 3 M a y l e t t e r. Page 199 of 266 I think it is 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e o n e th a t M r M a h la n g u s a id w a s w h e n h e g a v e y o u t h e o r ig i n a l n o ti f ic a ti o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll f in d t h a t in M r M a h la n g u ’s b u n d l e a n d t h a t is D D 4 a n d y o u w il l f in d i t a t p a g e 1 4 3 o f t h a t b u n d l e . I t i s r i g h t t o w a r d s t h e e n d u n d e r Ta b 2 1 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. Ye s I a m t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o u n h e l p f u l ly o f t e n B N P C a p i ta l ’s l e t te r s 10 a r e n o t t h e m s e l v e s d a t e d s o y o u a l w a y s h a v e to s e a r c h a r o u n d t o s e e t h e c o v e r i n g e m a il . W e h a v e n o t b e e n p r o v i d e d w it h t h a t b y M r M a h l a n g u w e w i ll a s k h i m a b o u t i t i n t h e c o u r s e o f h i s e v i d e n c e . B u t t h is is th e l e t te r t h a t h e s a y s w a s s e n t o n th e 1 3 M a y. Is t h is o n e y o u r e c a l l l a t e r b e in g s h o w n o r c a n y o u r e c a l l h a v in g r e c e iv e d it o n th e 1 3 May? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir j u s t o n e s e c o n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Of course take your time. Can I ask you in p a r t ic u l a r t o lo o k a t t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e w h a t th is le t t e r is d o i n g it is te ll in g y o u a b o u t w e ll a n in t e n t i o n t o s u s p e n d w h ic h I w i ll d e a l w it h 20 q u e s t io n in g o f M r M a h l a n g u o n b e c a u s e t h e F S B a t t h a t s ta g e h a d n o t in d i c a t e d a n in t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d th e lic e n c e i t h a d in f a c t s u s p e n d e d t h e l ic e n c e . B u t i f y o u l o o k a t th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h w h a t B N P is s a y in g i s t h e y h a v e g o t a n o t h e r p a r tn e r C r e e d C a p i t a l P a r tn e r s w h o c a n ta k e o v e r th e ir r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s . D o y o u r e m e m b e r g e t ti n g t h is n o t if ic a ti o n o f the 13 May? Page 200 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I d o C h a i r b u t I a m tr y in g to l o c a t e w h e r e t h e y a r e s a y i n g b e c a u s e I a ls o r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e y s a i d t h e y i n fo r m e d u s i n M a y b u t I a m tr y in g t o l o c a t e i t in t h is s p e c i f ic l e t te r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i t w i ll n o t b e i n th is l e t t e r. T h i s i s th e le t t e r t h a t c o n s ti t u te s i n f o r m in g y o u i n M a y. O k a y l e t u s t a k e Mr M a h la n g u a t h is w o r d t h a t t h is w a s s e n t to y o u o n t h e 1 3 M a y r i g h t ? Yo u w i ll s e e it is t h e d a y a f t e r t h e d a t e r e f e r r e d t o i n t h e s e c o n d li n e b e c a u s e i n th e s e c o n d li n e t h e y s a y : “ I w o u l d l ik e to c l a r i fy t h e is s u e o f t h e F S B l ic e n c e . ” 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ B N P C a p i t a l r e c e iv e d a l e t te r fr o m t h e F S B d a t e d 1 2 May 2015.” M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ I n d ic a ti n g i ts i n te n ti o n t o te m p o r a r y s u s p e n d B N P ’s lic e n c e f o r a p e r io d o f t h r e e m o n th s b a s e d o n th e r e a s o n t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o P h a s e A c t S e c t io n 1 0 th e k e y i n d i v i d u a l h a s f a i l e d to s u c c e s s fu ll y c o m p le t e t h e 20 fir s t l e v e l r e g u la t o r y e x a m i n a t io n s . ” I t g o e s o n a n d i n th e la s t p a r a g r a p h i t s a y s ; “ T h e c o n d i ti o n s o f s u s p e n s i o n r e q u ir e d a t B N P w o r k w i t h a n o th e r a u th o r is e d f in a n c ia l s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r u n t il i t h a s f u lf il l e d a ll i t s s u s p e n s i o n c o n d i ti o n s . A c c o r d i n g ly w e h a v e e n g a g e d C r e e d C a p i t a l P a r t n e r s Page 201 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 o f w h i c h it s l ic e n c e is b e in g a t t a c h e d . ” M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C h a ir t h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s a s k i n g t h e d a t e o f t h is le t t e r w h e n w e r e s p o n d – w h e n w e w r o te a l e t te r in J u ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : To B N P w e a s k e d t h e m in t h a t l e t t e r t o s a y w e n e v e r r e c e iv e d b e c a u s e t h e ir l e t t e r w a s s a y in g w e in f o r m e d y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : O n th e 1 2 M a y a n d i n o u r r e s p o n s e w e s a i d w e n e v e r r e c e iv e d i t c a n y o u s p e c i fy a n d c a n y o u p l e a s e g i v e i t t o u s a n d th e y n e v e r r e s p o n d e d o n t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o i t s h o u l d b e o n m y b u n d l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e n o t s e e n i t i n y o u r b u n d le . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w il l b e u s e fu l i f w e c a n s o u r c e t h is a t some point. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S u r e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l m a y b e w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e te a – th e b r e a k n o w s o th a t c o u l d h e l p a ls o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h l o c a t i n g a n y d o c u m e n t t h a t i s n e c e s s a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – s h a ll w e t a k e te n m in u te s ? Page 202 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is t e n p a s t f o u r w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w e n ty p a s t f o u r. W e a d j o u r n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a n k y o u . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir ju s t to u p d a t e y o u . W e – w e u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e r e n o t a b l e t o s o u r c e th e d o c u m e n t o v e r th e b r e a k 10 b u t M s N h a n ts i in d ic a t e s s h e m a y w e l l h a v e a c o p y o f it a t h o m e a n d s h e w il l p r o v i d e it t o u s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O v e r th e c o u r s e o f th e e v e n i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r th e r e a ft e r b u t I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m M s N h a n ts i s h e w il l j u s t g iv e u s t h e e v i d e n c e a s s h e r e c a l ls i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e c a n fo ll o w t h a t u p w i t h th e d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i t h e k e y q u e s ti o n is d id y o u r e c e i v e o n 1 3 M a y i n S A A t h e le t t e r th a t a p p e a r s a s 1 - 4 - 3 i n M r M a h la n g u ’s bundle? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Th a n k y o u C h a i r. N o , w e n e v e r r e c e iv e d it C h a ir to t h e e x t e n t t h a t o n t h e l e t t e r t h a t I w i ll – I w i ll c ir c u la t e to t h e – t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t e a m l a te r o n – o n t h e l a te r d a t e d 1 3 J u ly c h a ir w e Page 203 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 e v e n – th e r e i s a p a r a g r a p h t h a t s a y s : “ P l e a s e n o t e t h a t t h e l e t te r th a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t is s a y i n g y o u in f o r m e d u s o n 1 2 M a y. n e v e r r e c e iv e d i t. We C a n y o u c o n fi r m w h o d id y o u send it to and can you provide us with a copy of that?” S o w e n e v e r r e c e i v e d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m t h e m . T h i s w a s 1 3 J u ly C h a ir a n d w e th e n g a v e t h e m s e v e n d a y s t o r e s p o n d . F ir s t i m m e d ia t e l y w h e n w e r e c e i v e d t h e l e t te r f o r – in f a c t b e fo r e – o n t h e 6 t h M s H o f m e y r 10 h a s t h a t e m a il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s le t u s g o t h e r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o a i d y o u r e v id e n c e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e g o i n M s S ti m p e l ’s b u n d le - t h i s is D D 1 B – a n d y o u t u r n u p t h e r e p a g e 5 - 7 - 3 w h ic h is u n d e r Ta b 6 2 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: ( C o u g h i n g ) s o r r y C h a ir. 5 - 7 - 3 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h r e e , c o r r e c t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i t h a t i s a l e t te r b u t th e e m a il t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o y o u w il l j u s t s e e o v e r t h e p a g e a t 5 - 7 - 5 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s a n e m a il fr o m M r Iv a n M o y o w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d – w h o I u n d e r s t a n d to b e a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f B N P C a p i t a l . Is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? Page 204 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t is s e n t t o M s U r s u la F ik e l e p i a n d yourself. Correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o p i e d t o Mr M a h l a n g u . D o y o u s e e th a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o n t h is 6 J u ly w h a t is b e i n g c o m m u n ic a t e d t o S A A i n t h i s e m a il ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 T h e y a r e c o m m u n i c a t in g th a t a s B N P t h e y a r e i n g o o d s t a n d in g . T h e y s ti ll h a v e – c a n I r e a d i t C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: “ D e a r U r s u l a , w e c a n c o n f ir m th a t t h e f u n d in g e n t it y h a s a n F S B L ic e n c e a n d is a u t h o r i s e d u n d e r S o u t h A fr ic a n l a w t o p r o v i d e t h is fi n a n c i a l p r o d u c t . S e e a t t a c h e d F S B L ic e n c e . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t o 5 - 7 - 6 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . T h e y t h e n a tt a c h t h e – t h e F S B L i c e n c e o f B N P a n d i t i s c e r ti f ie d a s w e ll a s – a s a tr u e c o p y. T h e d a t e o f th e c e r t if ic a ti o n is 2 3 J u n e 2 0 1 6 . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I j u s t h a v e it . As a t t h is d a t e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m l o o k i n g f o r th e c e r ti fi c a t e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a t t h e b o tt o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. R i g h t a t t h e b o t to m . Page 205 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o t it . CHAIRPERSON: J a , c e r t if i e d b y a C o m m is s i o n e r o f O a t h s . Is t h a t r ig h t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a s a tr u e c o p y o f t h e o r ig i n a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a t r u e c o p y o f t h e o r i g i n a l . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o … CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e j u s t b e c le a r o n t h e e v i d e n c e . On 6 J u ly y o u r e c e i v e c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m B N P C a p it a l in w h ic h t h e y s a y 10 t h e y h a v e a F S B L i c e n c e a n d th e li c e n c e t h a t is a t t a c h e d is th e o n e w e h a v e j u s t lo o k e d a t. S o t h e r e is n o s u g g e s t io n in t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t a n y t h in g h a s b e e n s u s p e n d e d . C o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . I n fa c t C h a ir – a ll o w m e o n p a g e 5 - 7 - 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e e m a il fr o m U r s u l a Fi k e l e p i t o m y s e l f . I t is s a y i n g : “ D e a r P h u m e z a , p l e a s e c o n f ir m t h a t t h e l e n d e r h a s F S B L i c e n c e a n d is a u t h o r is e d u n d e r S o u t h A fr i c a n 20 la w t o p r o v i d e t h is fi n a n c i a l p r o d u c t. P l e a s e a ls o send as us a copy of such li c e n c e well as c o n fir m a t io n fr o m th e F S B a n d o t h e r a p p lic a b l e r e g u la t o r s o f th e l a t te r ’s g o o d s ta n d i n g . ” S o t h is is t h e ir r e s p o n s e t o th is q u e s t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n a s k e d b y M s Fi k e le p i a n d t h e y a r e c o n fi r m in g o n t h e e m a il o f Ir v i n M o y o th e y a r e c o n f ir m i n g a n d t h e y a t t a c h in g t h e F S B L i c e n c e a n d t h e y a r e Page 206 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c o n fir m i n g a g o o d s ta n d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n – s o t h a t is 6 J u l y. Then as I have t h e c h r o n o l o g y o n 7 J u ly y o u g e t t h e O U TA o r t h e W e b b e r W e n t z e l le t t e r … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then if you go back to 5-7-3 you have a le t t e r t h a t is d a t e d 8 J u ly th a t is a t 5 - 7 - 3 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e w e g e t th e r e w h e n y o u w e r e 10 d e a li n g M s N h a n t s i w i t h t h e le t t e r a t fiv e – p a g e 5 - 7 - 4 – t h e e m a il fr o m – d id y o u s a y i t is U r s u l a ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is U r s u la F ik e l e p i . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, U r s u l a Fi k e l e p i. She says to you – she is a s k in g y o u t o s e n d t h e m a c o p y o f t h e l ic e n c e … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And says: “ … a s w e ll a s c o n fi r m a ti o n f r o m t h e F S B a n d o th e r a p p lic a b l e r e g u la t o r s o f t h e l e n d e r s g o o d s t a n d i n g . ” That suggests that what they want to know apart from just saying 20 s e e i n g t h e l ic e n c e t h e y w a n t to k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t lic e n c e is s ti ll i n o r d e r. It is o p e r a ti o n a l . I t c a n b e r e li e d u p o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th is w a s b e i n g s e n t t o y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is y o u r – a r e y o u s u g g e s t in g th a t w h e n B N P s e n t t h e Page 207 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 le t t e r to w h ic h y o u h a v e ju s t r e f e r r e d o r t h e e m a il f r o m M o y o t h a t t h e y w e r e a w a r e t h a t w h a t w a s r e q u i r e d i n c l u d e d s o m e th in g th a t s a id B N P was in good standing with FSB? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I w o u l d s a y s o C h a ir b e c a u s e o n t h e s a m e email on page 5-7-4 … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Iv a n fr o m B N P i s c o p i e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is w h a t I w a n t e d t o e s t a b l is h . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e y g e t a s k e d f o r t h a t c o n fir m a t io n o n t h e 6th. L e s s t h a n a n h o u r l a t e r - I h a v e i t i n t i m e – t h e y p r o v id e t h a t a n s w e r t h a t w e s e e a t 5 - 7 - 5 a t t a c h i n g t h e c o p y o f t h e l ic e n c e t h a t w e h a v e lo o k e d a t . Th e n e x t d a y y o u g e t t h e q u e r y fr o m W e b b e r W e n tz e l a n d th e n i f w e ju s t g o b a c k t o 5 - 7 - 3 th a t i s t h e le t t e r th a t I u n d e r s t a n d c a m e t o y o u o n 8 J u l y 2 0 1 6 . C a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . I t d i d C h a i r. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h is l e t t e r b e a r s a s tr i k i n g r e s e m b la n c e t o th e o n e o f 1 3 M a y e x c e p t t h a t t h e r e a r e s o m e i m p o r t a n t d i ff e r e n c e . I d o n o t p r o p o s e t o d e a l w i th th e m w i t h M s N h a n ts i. W e w ill d e a l w i t h t h e m w i th M r M a h l a n g u . CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is fine. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a s y o u h a v e t h e f a c ts M s N h a n ts i y o u d id Page 208 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 n o t r e c e iv e 1 3 M a y l e t t e r. Even on 6 July you were told by BNP that they had a valid FSB Licence … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t is o n ly o n 8 J u l y t h a t t h a t is c o r r e c t e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o d e a l w i t h t h e s u c c e s s fe e – i f w e m a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h e s u c c e s s f e e i s t h e n e x t d e c i s i o n in t h e c o n ti n u u m o f d e c is io n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e w e h a v e lo o k e d a t F S – t h e F D C . W e h a v e l o o k e d a t tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r a p p o i n t m e n t . We have looked at sourcer of funds appointment and the next thing that happens after BNP is a p p o i n t e d a s a s o u r c e r o f fu n d s o n 2 5 M a y 2 0 1 6 is o n t h a t v e r y s a m e d a y t h e y w r i t e a l e tt e r to S A A a s k in g – a p o l o g i e s – I a m n o t d o i n g t h e c a n c e l la t io n fe e y e s . I a m d o in g t h e s u c c e s s f e e . L e t u s d e a l w it h – w h e n I s a y s u c c e s s f e e I m e a n th e f e e t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o c h a r g e f o r s o u r c i n g 20 these funds. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e is a d e b a t e b e t w e e n y o u a n d M s S t i m p e l a b o u t t h e a p p r o p r i a t e n e s s o f a 1 . 5 p e r c e n t fe e . Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I r e a d y o u r s t a t e m e n t Ms N h a n ts i a n d w e Page 209 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 c a n g o to p a g e 1 9 o f i t - i f w e m a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 6 4 o n t h a t p a g e y o u a r e d e a l i n g w it h t h e j u s t if ic a ti o n o f t h e 1 .5 p e r c e n t w h ic h w a s th e n e g o ti a te d r a te t h a t h a d b e e n a g r e e d w i t h B N P. C o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : understand your A n d y o u a r e a ls o a n s w e r i n g h e r e - a s I statement – the a c c u s a ti o n that was made in M s S ti m p e l’s s t a te m e n t t h a t d e s p i te h e r g i v in g y o u i n f o r m a t i o n f r o m t h e 10 b a n k s th a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e s o u r c e d t h e s e f u n d s f o r m u c h l e s s . Yo u d id n o t t a k e t h a t i n f o r m a t io n t o t h e B o a r d . Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : As I understand your paragraph 64 what you a r e s a y i n g th e r e i s y o u w e r e e n ti tl e d to d is c o u n t th e q u o t a t i o n s t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m M s S t i m p e l b e c a u s e – a n d I a m r e a d i n g fr o m t h e m i d d l e o f th a t p a r a g r a p h : “ T h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n a r e q u e s t y o u h a d m a d e …” 20 W e w i ll c o m e t o t h a t r e q u e s t. “ … a n d t h a t o f M s S t i m p e l w a s th a t s h e w a s a s k i n g o n a h y p o t h e t ic a l p o i n t o f v ie w a n d I w a s fo c u s i n g o n a fa c t u a l p o i n t o f v ie w. ” Do you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. Page 210 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Wa s t h a t y o u r r e a s o n f o r d is c a r d in g th e a l t e r n a t iv e q u o t e s t h a t s h e p r e s e n t e d t o y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s – C h a ir a l l o w m e t o – t o ju s t g iv e f u r th e r in f o r m a ti o n th e r e . I s a i d w i t h Ms S t i m p e l – n o w w e a r e t a lk i n g t h e s u c c e s s r a te ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I – I th i n k i t w a s 6 M a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 W e d i s c u s s e d a n d i n c o n tr a r y to – t o h e r s t a te m e n t a s w e ll w h e r e s h e s a i d I g a v e h e r a s u b m is s io n t o s i g n a n d s h e r e f u s e d th a t h a d 3 p e r c e n t . I n e v e r g a v e h e r a s u b m is s i o n b u t w h a t I d i d w a s t h e d is c u s s i o n w i t h h e r t o s a y I e n g a g e d w i t h S N G – S iz w e N ts a l u b a G o b o d o C o r p o r a te Fi n a n c e a n d th e – I a s k e d f o r t h e – t h e in d u s tr y n o r m . T h e y s a id i t i s t w o t o 3 p e r c e n t . S o s h e to l d m e th a t 3 p e r c e n t is h i g h . I t h e n a s k e d M s S ti m p e l t o g o a n d d o th e a n a ly s is a n d – a n d r e v e r t b a c k t o m e . M s S ti m p e l w a s a w a r e o f th e – o f t h e u r g e n c y o f – o f th e s e fu n d s th a t a r e n e e d e d f o r t h e c o m p a n y t o s e t t le t h e l o a n s . S h e t o l d m e t h a t s h e is g o i n g a w a y o n le a v e a n d s h e w o u l d a s k 20 M r Kl e y n to d o t h e a n a l y s i s w h i c h – w h ic h I a g r e e d . O n t h e d a y - p e r h a p s l e t m e b e c a u s e s h e s a id i t o n – o n t h e p u b lic t h a t s h e m a d e i t a s i f M r J a c o b Z u m a w h e n h e w e n t t o S A A h e w a s h a v i n g a m e e t in g w i t h m e . I w o u l d lik e t o p u t it o n r e c o r d t h a t C h a ir M r J a c o b Z u m a w h e n h e w e n t t o S A A h e w e n t to a d d r e s s t h e e n t ir e e m p lo y e e s o f S A A . Page 211 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 S o t h e r e w a s n o w a y I c o u l d n o t h a v e a t te n d e d b e c a u s e e v e n t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s w e r e th e r e . T h a t is n u m b e r o n e . S e c o n d ly, M r Kl e y n d id n o t d o t h e a n a ly s is a n d w e f o r g e d a h e a d b e c a u s e o f t h e u r g e n c y t h a t w e h a d o f t h e lo a n s . W e p r e p a r e d t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s t a r ti n g f r o m B A C . A s y o u h a v e s a id w e f o ll o w e d t h e p r o c e s s e s . S h e c a m e b a c k a n d w r o t e to m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I a m s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u t h e r e b u t I w o u l d j u s t l ik e to a s k a fo ll o w u p q u e s t io n i n t h e c h r o n o l o g y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . Yo u m e e t w it h h e r o n 6 M a y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e s a y s s h e is g o i n g o n l e a v e a n d s h e i s g o i n g t o g e t Mr K l e y n t o d o t h e s e a l t e r n a t i v e q u o te s f o r y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y h e d i d n o t p r o d u c e th e m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id h e – d i d y o u f o ll o w u p w i th h i m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I h a v e a s k e d M r K le y n . H e s a i d h e h a s d o n e a n y th in g . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s i t n o t v e r y i m p o r t a n t fo r y o u t o g e t s o m e a l t e r n a t iv e q u o te s a t th a t p o i n t ? S h o u ld y o u n o t h a v e i n s tr u c t e d h i m t o do so? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I – I h a d a – t h e r e a s o n w h y I – I a s k e d f o r – fo r S N G C o r p o r a t e F i n a n c e o n th e s u b m is s io n th a t Mr K l e y n h a d – sorry – Ms Stimpel had on the 27th. T h e fa m o u s s u b m is s io n – Page 212 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 2 7 N o v e m b e r. Th e r e w a s a l is t o f – o f b id d e r s a n d p o t e n ti a l b i d d e r s a n d a l is t o f t h e o n e s t h a t h a v e r e s p o n d e d a n d t h e o t h e r s th a t h a v e n o t responded. T h e f in a n c i a l i n s ti t u ti o n s s p e c i f ic a ll y t h e o n e s t h a t s h e r e q u e s t e d s o m e n e v e r r e s p o n d e d s o m e d id n o t s h o w u p . Some were g iv e n t h e r a t e s o f – o f 7 p e r c e n t a n d a l l t h a t. S o I f e l t th e r e is n o n e e d t o g o a n d p r o b e th e b a n k f u r t h e r b e c a u s e w h a t s h e h a s d o n e i s t o ju s t e n g a g e t h e b a n k s a n d t h e s a m e b a n k s t h a t l a s t w e e k s h e d id t e s ti f y i n s a y in g t h e r e a r e m o r e c a u ti o u s . T h e y c a n n o t – t h e y w il l n o t p u t a l l t h e i r r e s o u r c e s i n o n e p o t . 10 S o t h e – I c o u ld n o t a s k t h e b a n k s a n d t w o , th e r e a s o n w h y I d id n o t e n g a g e f u r t h e r w h e n s h e c a m e b a c k th e h y p o th e ti c a l q u o t e s i s b e c a u s e t h o s e w e r e h y p o t h e tic a l q u o t e s a n d t o q u o t e o n e fr o m R N B i t e v e n s a id w i t h o u t t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t o th e r i n f o r m a t io n h y p o th e ti c a ll y t h i s is th e r a te . S o th e – t h e r a t e s t h a t M s S ti m p e l g o t fr o m t h e b a n k s n e e d e d s o m e w o r k to b e d o n e f o r – f o r th o s e r a te s to b e c o m p a r e d to t h e a c t u a l r a te s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e – i f I m a y – j u s t t o b r e a k t h a t d o w n 20 a bit. I h a d n o t j u m p e d y e t t o 2 0 M a y w h i c h is w h e n y o u g o t t h e h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o t e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y, s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e s t il l i n a b o u t 11 M a y o r th e r e a b o u t s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r s u b m is s i o n t o t h e B o a r d w a s o n 1 8 M a y. Page 213 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . S o w h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d in i s th e d a t e s b e t w e e n 6 M a y a n d 1 8 M a y w h e n Ms S t i m p e l l e a v e s t o s a y I a m g o i n g t o g e t y o u s o m e a l t e r n a t iv e q u o t e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e le a v e s i t t o h e r D e p u ty to d o s o . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e d o e s n o t d o s o . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m i n te r e s t e d in w h y y o u d id n o t s e e k fu r t h e r q u o t e s a t t h a t p o in t . I t i s n o t r e l e v a n t to w h a t y o u d o g e t fr o m M s S ti m p e l a t th e ti m e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y a r e y o u n o t g o i n g f o r m o r e th a n t h e S N G – it is a r o u n d t w o t o 3 p e r c e n t c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t y o u h a d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir t h e r e a s o n w h y I d i d n o t g o o u t f o r more in fact I thought I did very well because when I sat with M s S ti m p e l o n 6 M a y S N G t o l d m e th a t th e – th e g o in g r a te is t w o t o 3 20 p e r c e n t a n d th e r a te t h a t I n e g o t i a t e d w i t h B N P w a s 1 . 5 p e r c e n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So your view was you needed no more than that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: My v i e w w a s 1 . 5 p e r c e n t i s e v e n l e s s th a n t h e – t h e m i n i m u m o f – o f t h e i n d u s tr y n o r m a n d – a n d a l s o h i g h l e v e l c a l c u l a ti o n s w e r e o n c e o th e r f a c t o r s a r e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t o n h e r Page 214 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o t e s – a ll o w m e t o l i n k th e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O n h e r h y p o th e t ic a l q u o te s i t w o u ld g o t o th e s a m e r a te s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id th e i n f o r m a t i o n y o u r e c e i v e fr o m S N G g i v e y o u c l a r i ty a s t o w h a t th e in d u s tr y n o r m w a s o r w h a t S N G w o u l d charge? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Th e – th e y g a v e m e t h e i n d u s tr y n o r m b e c a u s e C o r p o r a te F in a n c e a t S N G t h e y d o d e a l w i th t h e s e k i n d s o f 10 tr a n s a c ti o n s . S o S N G i ts e lf d o e s n o t g i v e f u n d i n g b u t th e y g e t i n v o l v e d in t h e a d v i s o r y o f – o f th e s e k in d s o f tr a n s a c ti o n s ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e y a l s o s o u r c e fu n d s . D o th e y n o t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: They also assist the companies in sourcing funds. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h i s t h e e x a c t p o s i ti o n t h a t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t B N P w o u l d o c c u p y h e r e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r F o n y a i s t h e p e r s o n y o u d e a l t w i t h a t S N G . 20 Is i t n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u i n c l u d e d a s t a t e m e n t o f h is t h a t w a s unsigned in your evidence. Did you not? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e a w a r e t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n f o l l o w e d u p Page 215 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 with him? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t t h a t s ta t e m e n t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a n u n s i g n e d s t a te m e n t w e n e e d e d t o e x p l o r e f u r t h e r. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e b e e n s e n t a c o p y o f th e a ff id a v i t t h a t h e p r o v id e d f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n . C o r r e c t? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e s a y s in t h a t a ffi d a v i t th a t – l e t u s g e t i t C h a ir - i f w e m a y - a t p a g e 3 - 1 - 4 o f y o u r b u n d le w h ic h i s D D 2 . CHAIRPERSON: 3-1-4? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t to w a r d s th e e n d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 I w o u l d li k e t o p i c k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 8 . says at paragraph 8: “During 2016 …” S h e t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e t o y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : telephone. “ … c a ll e d me one I w a s i n t h e o ffi c e . Page 216 of 266 day on the I do not recall He 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 p r e c i s e ly w h e n t h is w a s in 2 0 1 6 b u t I c a n c o n fir m that it was before the news broke in the media a b o u t t h e B N P tr a n s a c ti o n w i th S A A . ” C h a ir j u s t fo r r e f e r e n c e t h a t o n ly o c c u r s l a t e r i n J u ly. “ T h e p h o n e c a l l d i d n o t la s t m o r e t h a n f iv e mi n u te s . S h e a s k e d m e w h a t S N G w o u ld c h a r g e t o s o u r c e f u n d s fo r S A A o n a n u r g e n t b a s is . I r e s p o n d e d t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n s f o r s o u r c i n g f u n d s c a n r a n g e b e t w e e n t w o t o t h r e e p e r c e n t o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n d e p e n d in g o n t h e s iz e o f t h e d e a l . ” 10 11 : “ S h e d i d n o t g iv e m e f u r t h e r d e ta il s a b o u t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o r f u n d i n g r e q u i r e d b y S A A . ” Ms Nhantsi do – do you accept that what Mr F o n y a u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e a s k i n g w a s w h a t S N G w o u l d c h a r g e t o s o u r c e th e funds? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a s k e d f o r th e i n d u s tr y n o r m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a g r e e t h a t t h a t is n o t c o n s i s t e n t w i t h what he says you asked him? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: ( W i tn e s s r e a d i n g t o h e r s e l f) . C H A I R P E R S O N : U n le s s S N G c h a r g e d i n d u s tr y n o r m s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s u s p e c t t h e y a r e a n a v i d c o m p e t i to r i n t h a t market. So … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir t h e c a ll t h a t I h a d w it h Mz u y a n d a I a s k e d w h a t w o u l d th e i n d u s tr y n o r m – w h a t w o u l d b e c h a r g e d in t h e Page 217 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 m a r k e t fo r 1 5 b ill i o n o n a n u r g e n t b a s is b e c a u s e S A A n e e d s m o n e y in t w o m o n th s o r I r e m e m b e r I s a id t w o a n d a h a l f m o n t h s . So he said between two to – between two to 3 percent. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t t h a t is n o t c o n s i s t e n t w i t h w h a t h e s a y s o c c u r r e d o n t h a t c a ll ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I s e e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n o t e i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o a s s u m i n g M r F o n y a ’s r e c o l le c ti o n o f t h a t c a l l is a c c u r a te d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i f y o u o n ly h a d t h e S N G r a t e a v a i la b le to y o u i t w o u l d h a v e m a d e s e n s e t o a t l e a s t t e s t t h a t in t h e m a r k e t – g e t a f e w a lt e r n a t iv e s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i f – i f m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t th e t i m e w a s t h is i s S N G r a t e . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h is is t h e i n d u s tr y n o r m w h ic h is w h y o n m y s u b m is s i o n a s w e ll it t a l k s a b o u t t h e in d u s tr y n o r m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n l e t u s m o v e f o r w a r d t o 2 0 M a y b e c a u s e a t t h a t d a t e y o u g e t “ E v id e n c e o f H y p o t h e tic a l Q u o te s ” th a t th e h e a d i n g o n t h e e m a i l – c o r r e c tly s o – fr o m R N B a n d t h e n l a t e r A b s a i n d ic a ti n g t h a t t h e y w o u l d c h a r g e m u c h l e s s t h a n th a t t o s o u r c e t h e s e f u n d s . 20 M s N h a n t s i w h y a t th a t p o i n t d id y o u n o t e n g a g e t h e B o a r d a n d s a y I h a v e c o m e t o y o u p r e v i o u s l y fo r 1 . 5 b u t I h a v e j u s t r e c e i v e d t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e b a n k s w i ll d o t h i s f o r m u c h le s s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir as – as I have M s S ti m p e l a s k e d t h e b a n k s fo r t h e h y p o th e tic a l q u o t e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Page 218 of 266 indicated that 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I f t h e s e w e r e t h e a c tu a l q u o te s I w o u ld d e f in i te ly h a v e d o n e t h e s a m e o r m a y b e i f I k n o w w h a t I k n o w t o d a y b u t a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e I – I f e lt w e a r e n o t c o m p a r i n g a p p l e s w i th a p p l e s . W e a r e c o m p a r in g t h e a c t u a l r a t e s w i t h t h e h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o te s b e c a u s e th e y e v e n o n th e r e s p o n s e f r o m t h e l e n d e r s t h e y d o s a y w i t h o u t ta k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t o th e r i n f o r m a ti o n . T h e u r g e n c y i s c r i t ic a l C h a ir i n – in s o u r c in g th e f u n d s b e c a u s e i t m e a n s t h e – t h e f u n d e r s w o u l d h a v e to g o a n d b r e a k th e in v e s t m e n ts . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y a r e y o u – w h y y o u m o r e c o m f o r ta b l e w i th t h e t e l e p h o n ic c o n v e r s a ti o n y o u h a d h a d w it h M r F o n y a ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t is b e c a u s e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s n o t a f o r m a l q u o t e . W a s i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . It i s b e c a u s e h is – I c a ll e d h i m o n e , I w a s – I w a s – b e c a u s e I w a s s t il l a s e c o n d e e a t – a t S A A s o b a s ic a l ly S N G w a s m y s u p p o r t s tr u c t u r e n u m b e r o n e . N u m b e r t w o , I d i d n o t th i n k a t th a t t i m e t h a t I s h o u l d g e t a fo r m a l q u o t e e s p e c i a lly a f t e r I - I t h o u g h t I d e s e r v e d t o – a w e l l d o n e b e c a u s e I m a n a g e d to n e g o ti a te a r a te t h a t is l e s s t h a n t h e in d u s tr y n o r m . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i I s ti ll s tr u g g l e w it h w h y e v e n i f y o u h a d a l l t h o s e r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t t h e h y p o th e ti c a l q u o te t h e y w e r e c o m i n g i n u n d e r h a l f a p e r c e n t. Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t – t h e h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o t e s t h a t M s S ti m p e l h a d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . T h e y w e r e s o m e w h e r e o n 0 .7 5 b a s i s points yes. Page 219 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B a s i s p o i n ts w h ic h i s a p e r c e n t a g e o f a p e r c e n t a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e l in g o . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e w a s s a y in g t o y o u i t i s c o n s i d e r a b ly c h e a p e r i f w e g o t o th e b a n k s . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u r r o l e a t S A A i s t o a c t in it s f i n a n c ia l b e s t in t e r e s ts ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o a n d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u l d y o u n o t th e n tr y a n d c h a n g e th o s e h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o t e s in t o a c tu a l q u o te s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e y o u r G r o u p 10 Tr e a s u r e r s a y i n g t o y o u I c a n g e t th is f o r m u c h , m u c h l e s s . s a v e th e c o m p a n y h u n d r e d s o f m il li o n s . We can W h y w o u ld y o u n o t th e n g o and ask for a formal quote if necessary? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Tw o t h i n g s C h a ir. O n e w e w e r e a c t in g o n a c o n fi n e m e n t a n d e m e r g e n c y b a s is . So for me to open and go to the b a n k s a n d e n g a g e o n h y p o th e ti c a l q u o t e s it w o u l d m e a n I a m n u l li f y i n g t h e e m e r g e n c y a n d th e c o n f i n e m e n t t h a t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d . T h a t is o n e . Tw o , a s I h a v e h ig h l i g h t e d n o w t h a t w e a r e n o t c o m p a r i n g a p p le s w i t h a p p le s . T h r e e , th e q u e s ti o n th a t I h a d i n m i n d is o n e o f t h e 20 t h i n g s i f a l s o M s S t i m p e l a c t e d in t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y a s s h e is s a y i n g t h e s e h y p o t h e tic a l q u o t e s a s w e l l s h e s h o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d i t w h e n s h e r e c e iv e d t h e S e a c r e s t t e n d e r a n d th e S e a c r e s t t e r m s h e e t a n d i f y o u c o m p a r e t h is w i th t h e S e a c r e s t te n d e r a s w e l l th e c o m p a n y w a s g o i n g t o p a y a m u c h , m u c h h ig h e r r a t e o n S e a c r e s t . S o I h a d q u e s t i o n s . T h e S e a c r e s t o n e w a s a t th e b a c k o f m y Page 220 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 m i n d e s p e c i a l ly w h e n e v e r y t i m e I m e a t w i th M s S t i m p e l s h e a l w a y s t a lk s a b o u t h o w t h e B o a r d to o k a w r o n g d e c is io n b y – b y n o t t a k i n g Seacrest. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Tw o , t h e h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o t e s I f e l t a s w e ll w h il s t w e p u s h i n g f o r t h e c o m p a n y to g e t t h e f u n d in g s o t h a t w e a r e VAT t h e d e f a u l t o n t h e l o a n s . M s S t i m p e l is - o r is s t il l f ix a te d o n S e a c r e s t a n d n o w s h e i s c o m i n g o n t h e v e r y l a s t h o u r w i th h y p o t h e t ic a l q u o t e s th a t a r e n o t a c t u a l q u o te s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i I w o u l d li k e to ju s t p ic k u p t h e f ir s t o f th e a n s w e r s t h a t y o u g a v e t h e r e . Yo u s a i d y o u c o u l d n o t g o t h e b a n k s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e w o r k i n g w it h t h e d e c is i o n o f th e B o a r d to a w a r d th is s o u r c in g o f f u n d s t o B N P. I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: On the basis of – of emergency and c o n fi n e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d b u t y o u w i l l a c c e p t t h a t w h e n t h e B o a r d g a v e t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n a n d d e c i s i o n t h a t i t t o o k o n 2 1 A p r il i t h a d n o i d e a w h a t th e c o s t w o u ld b e t o i t … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: ( I n te r v e n e s ) . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f s o u r c i n g t h e s e f u n d s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: D e fi n i t e l y b u t m y p o i n t C h a ir i s w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n th e a m b i t o f e m e r g e n c y a n d c o n fi n e m e n t a n d i n te r ms o f S C M w e w e r e c o n fi n e d t o w o r k - b e c a u s e o f u r g e n c y w e w e r e l e f t w i t h t w o m o n th s . W e w e r e c o n fi n e d t o w o r k w i t h B N P a n d k n o w i n g w h a t I k n e w a t th e ti m e I th o u g h t 1 . 5 a n y w a y is – is a g o o d r a te . Page 221 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 T h e c o m p a n y is g o in g to s a v e m o n e y e s p e c i a l ly C h a ir th a t even if you look at the term sheet of BNP the rate was even now much le s s t h a n t h e o n e t h a t t h e y g a v e f o r FD C . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll d i d y o u t a k e t h e v i e w th a t i t w a s u n lik e ly th a t th e b a n k s w o u l d g iv e y o u a l o w e r r a t e t h a n t h e r a t e t h a t B N P w a s p r o v id in g if – e v e n i f y o u a p p r o a c h e d t h e m f o r a n a c t u a l r a t e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o m p a r i n g i t t o 1 .5 C h a i r I t o o k th e v i e w t h a t w i t h g i v i n g a n d fa c t o r in g o t h e r f a c t o r s i t w o u l d c o m e t o 1 .5 p e r c e n t e s p e c i a l ly t h e in d u s tr y n o r m b e i n g t w o t o 3 p e r c e n t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m n o t s u r e if t h a t a n s w e r s m y q u e s ti o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H u h - u h . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u t h i n k a b o u t a s k i n g f o r a n a c tu a l r a te fr o m t h e b a n k s e i th e r y o u r s e l f o r a s k in g M s S t i m p e l to d o t h a t f o r y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A t t h e t i m e n o – n o C h a ir. I d i d n o t a s k h e r b e c a u s e in m y m i n d I t h o u g h t t h e r a t e – a f te r t h e fa c t o r e d th e u r g e n c y o n – o n t h e h y p o t h e tic a l q u o t e i t w i ll c o m e t o t h e 1 . 5 p e r c e n t a n y w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w lo n g w o u l d i t t a k e t o g e t a n a c t u a l r a te fr o m th e b a n k s ? H o w l o n g w o u ld t h a t p r o c e s s t a k e ? W o u l d i t b e a q u e s t io n o f p ic k i n g u p a p h o n e a n d / o r s e n d i n g a n e m a il a n d w it h in t h e f e w d a y s 20 you would get an answer? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Yo u w o u l d s e n d a n e m a i l C h a ir d e p e n d in g i f y o u o n e , y o u s e n d th e e m a i l to t h e G e n e r a l L i a is i n g B a n k e r o r y o u a r e s e n d i n g t o t h e – b e c a u s e t h e c o m m u n i c a ti o n w o u l d b e y o u s e n d i t t o t h e l i a is in g p e r s o n w h o y o u n o r m a l ly d e a l w i t h a t t h e b a n k a n d t h e n t h a t p e r s o n n e e d s t o s e n d i t to t h e C o r p o r a te F in a n c i e r s . Page 222 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i ff e r e n t b a n k s , ja . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t a r e d e a l in g w i t h t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s w h ic h w a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s C h a ir t h a t I t h o u g h t th e p e o p l e w h o r e s p o n d e d th e y d i d n o t s a y t h e C o r p o r a t e F in a n c ie r s a r e s a y i n g t h is . T h e y – t h e y r e s p o n d e d fr o m t h e i r k n o w l e d g e a s t h e li a i s o n p e o p l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h o w l o n g w o u l d it t a k e t o g e t a n a n s w e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A m i n i m u m o f a w e e k C h a ir I t h i n k w o u l d b e r ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: A minimum of a week. 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t t h a t s t a g e w a s t h a t t o o lo n g , w o u l d t h a t c a u s e t o o lo n g a d e l a y ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir i t w a s g o i n g t o b e to o lo n g o f a d e l a y n o w w e ’r e t a lk i n g , w e a r e a t th e d a t e s o f 2 4 t h o f M a y a n d w e ’ v e g o t lo a n s th a t a r e m a t u r i n g 3 0 t h o f J u n e y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o p ic k u p o n e p o i n t th e r e M s N h a n ts i I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e y o u w o r k e d o u t t h a t if th e b a n k s h a d b e e n g iv e n th e f a c t o f u r g e n c y w h ic h i s th e o n ly f a c t a s I c o m p a r e w h a t 20 M s S t i m p e l w e n t to t h e b a n k s o n t h e b a s is o f a n d y o u w e n t to M r F o n y a o n th e b a s is o f , t h a t ’s th e o n l y p o i n t o f d is c r e p a n c y, t h a t if th e y h a d b e e n t o ld a b o u t u r g e n c y y o u s u r m is e d t h a t t h e ir r a te s t h a t w e r e le s s t h a n h a lf a p e r c e n t w o u l d t h e n g o u p t o 1 . 5 % , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a i r th e e m a ils , I ’ m s u r e w e c a n g o b a c k t o t h e m , t h e y d i d n ’ t g iv e , t h e o th e r b a n k , b e c a u s e s h e w e n t t o t w o o r Page 223 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h r e e , t w o th i n g s i s th e u r g e n c y a n d i t is t h e fa c t t h a t t h e m o n e y th a t t h e S A A n e e d e d s h o u l d b e i n l o c a l d e n o m i n a t o r s . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t M s N h a n ts i y o u d i d n o t g iv e t h a t f a c t to Mr Fonya? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: T h a t i s w h a t h e is s a y i n g o n h is a ffi d a v i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e d o e s n o t s a y t h a t y o u s p e c i fi e d t h a t i t m u s t be rand denominated. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m s u r e t h a t I d i d C h a ir. B u t h e d o e s n ’t s a y t h a t i n h is a ff id a v i t d o y o u accept that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s h e d o e s n ’ t s a y t h a t I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. W e a r e n o w M s N h a n ts i a t t h e l a s t p o i n t o n th e s u c c e s s fe e w h i c h i s t h a t y o u c o n c lu d e d o n y o u r o w n e s ti m a t i o n t h a t t h e u l t i m a te f e e w o u l d g e t a r o u n d 1 . 5 , y o u d i d n ’ t c h e c k that with anyone at the banks did you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I d id n ’ t C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o m o v e t o t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e w h ic h i s w h e r e I t h o u g h t w e w e r e p r e v i o u s l y, I d o 20 a p o lo g i s e f o r t h a t, t h e c a n c e ll a t io n f e e i s i n fa c t t h e l a s t d e c is i o n i n t h is s e q u e n c e a n d th a t y o u d e a l w i th a t p a g e 1 2 M s N h a n ts i o f y o u r s t a te m e n t i f w e c a n g o t h e r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. S o t h e r e s t a r ti n g a t p a r a g r a p h 3 8 y o u ’r e d e a li n g w i th t h e m o tiv a ti o n fo r t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e . Page 224 of 266 Yo u g a v e u s 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 evidence e a r l ie r t h is morning that you no longer support the c a n c e l la t io n f e e b u t y o u r e v i d e n c e a s I h a v e i t w a s a ls o t h a t y o u n e v e r s u p p o r t e d i t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t h e n c l a r i fy f o r u s w h y y o u r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e th e c a n c e l la t io n fe e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r th e c a n c e l la t io n f e e C h a ir o n t h e 2 5 t h o f M a y w h e n w e s e n t s ig n e d b y M r L e s t e r P e te r s t h e l e t t e r o f a w a r d to B n P t o s o u r c e t h e f u n d s f o r th e c o m p a n y, w h e n th e y 10 a c k n o w l e d g e d t h e r e c e i p t o f t h e l e t te r o f a w a r d t h e y th e n i n c l u d e d a n e w c l a u s e t h a t s a y s s h o u ld S A A c a n c e l f o r w h a te v e r r e a s o n th e y a r e o b li g e d o r e n ti t le d t o p a y 5 0 % o f th e to t a l f e e s w i th i n f iv e d a y s o r seven days if I’m not mistaken. Th is w a s th e n e w t e r m o r th e n e w c la u s e a lt o g e t h e r. W h e n w e d i s c u s s e d w i t h th e B o a r d t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w a s n o t t h e r e , s o w e t h e n , I th e n e n g a g e d w i th B n P in tr y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i s t h e b a s is o f R 1 2 8 m il li o n b e c a u s e 5 0 % o f 2 5 6 in c l u s i v e o f VAT is 1 2 8 m i ll io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t , w h o w e r e y o u d e a li n g w it h , w i th B n P i n t h e s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: With the – the correspondence was with Mr M a h l a n g u a n d t h e r e w e r e a ls o I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a t e l e p h o n e c a l l w i t h Mr Mngadi A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o b o th o f t h e m I e n g a g e d w i t h t h e m o n t h is . I w a n te d t o u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e c l a u s e i t ’s n o t a Page 225 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 n e w c la u s e i n t h e b u s in e s s e n v i r o n m e n t , b u t I fe l t i t w a s t o o h ig h a n d i t n e e d s t o b e j u s t i fi e d , w h y w o u l d o n e – i t w a s n e v e r d is c u s s e d w i th u s as management it came as a shock, numb er one, because it was never d is c u s s e d w it h u s a s m a n a g e m e n t s o t h a t w e c a n ta k e i t t o th e B o a r d , i t c a m e i n a l e t t e r s a y in g s h o u l d f o r a n y r e a s o n , a n d a t t h a t p o i n t I w a s n o t a n t ic ip a ti n g a n y c a n c e l la t io n s , c a n c e l la ti o n o f t h e m a n d a t e , b u t I w a s a w a r e , in t h e b a c k o f m y m i n d I w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a t e n d e r t h a t w a s d o n e a n d w h ic h w a s d e c li n e d . W h y w o u ld a c o m p a n y p a y t o t h e m a g n i t u d e o f R 1 2 8 m i ll io n . I e n g a g e d w it h t h e m , t h e y g a v e m e a n o t h e r s u b m is s io n , 10 s o m e t i m e in M a y, s o m e ti m e in J u n e I t h i n k C h a ir, f ir s t o n t h e 2 5 t h if y o u a l lo w m e t o t a k e y o u t h r o u g h th e c h r o n o l o g y. O n t h e 2 5 t h a ft e r w e ’v e r e c e i v e d t h i s a s I a m s a y i n g I w a s s h o c k e d w i th t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e . The acknowledgement was we had an attachment of a term sheet. I w a s – I th e n , I r e m e m b e r I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m M r M n g a d i, t h e r e w a s a ls o , I ’v e a t ta c h e d o n m y s ta t e m e n t h i s W h a ts a p p m e s s a g e p u tt i n g p r e s s u r e o n m e t o a c k n o w l e d g e th e r e c e i p t o f t h e le t t e r a n d t h e te r m sheet. On the 2nd of J une I then responded to say we ack nowledge y o u r – th e te r m s h e e t a n d a ls o a c k n o w l e d g in g t h e n e w t e r m o f t h e 20 c a n c e l la t io n f e e , p l e a s e b e a w a r e t h a t I n e e d t o ta k e t h i s t o t h e B o a r d , s o I th e n s i g n e d – I s i g n e d t h e t e r m s h e e t a n d I p u t a c l o s e w i th t h e a d v ic e fr o m L e g a l b e c a u s e w e d is c u s s e d t h is w i t h A c ti n g C E O a n d a l s o M s F ik il e p e . T h e a d v i c e th a t I g o t w a s i f w e j u s t s ig n e d th e t e r m s h e e t it w o u l d b e li k e w e a r e a c c e p ti n g t h i s n e w c l a u s e o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , b u t y e t w e s t il l n e e d t o t a k e i t t o th e B o a r d b e c a u s e t h is is a B o a r d Page 226 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 tr a n s a c ti o n a n d t h is n e w t e r m th e y n e e d t o b e a w a r e . I s ig n e d th e te r m s h e e t a n d I i n c lu d e d a h a n d w r i t t e n n o t e t o s a y t h is i s n o t b i n d in g u n ti l w e r e c e i v e b o a r d a p p r o v a l o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . Th is i s t h e 2 n d o f J u n e C h a ir, fr o m a f te r th e p r e s s u r e th a t I r e c e i v e d fr o m M r M n g a d i . T h e W h a ts a p p s I h a v e a tt a c h e d C h a ir, I a m n o t s u r e i f y o u w a n t u s to g o t h r o u g h b u t b e t w e e n t h e 2 n d – w h e n I s ig n e d t h e n o n - b i n d i n g t e r m s h e e t u p u n til t h e 8 t h I w i ll c o m e t o t h e 8 t h b e c a u s e a l s o M r v a n d e r M e r w e t e s t i fi e d o n t h e 8 t h , th e r e w a s a l o t o f p r e s s u r e t h a t I w a s r e c e i v i n g , th e r e w e r e l o t s o f W h a ts a p p s fr o m Mr M n g a d i, t h e r e w e r e 10 lo ts o f c a l ls fr o m t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d a n d th e w o r d s th a t s h e u s e d t o u s e is I a m b e h a v i n g a s if i t is b u s in e s s a s u s u a l , a n d i t is n o t b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l , t h e c o m p a n y is g o i n g d o w n i f w e d o n ’t g e t t h e funding. I r e s is t e d , I w r o t e t h e a c k n o w le d g e m e n t a n d I s a i d I a m g o in g t o ta k e i t to t h e B o a r d . O n th e 8 t h – b e f o r e t h e 8 t h t h e r e w a s a b o a r d m e e ti n g , t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g th a t w e h a d a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e 3rd of June. I w o k e u p w i th a W h a ts a p p f r o m M r M n g a d i s a y in g i f i t lo o k s lik e o n e , i t’s s a y i n g t h e y a p p o in t e d m e to le a d t h e m , t h e r e f o r e I m u s t l e a d t h e m , I s h o u l d n o t s a y I a m w a i ti n g fo r L e g a l o n c e r t a i n 20 t h i n g s a n d i f I d o n ’ t w a n t t o c o o p e r a te o r b e f o r e I g o t o th e m e e ti n g o f the 3rd I should sign that term sheet and take out the Landbank deal or I s h o u l d t e l l h i m b e c a u s e h e n e e d s t o e n g a g e a n d in f o r m t h e s t a k e h o ld e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s s a y in g th a t , I m is s e d t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Mr M n g a d i , o n t h e W h a ts a p p . Page 227 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e w a s s a y in g th e y a p p o i n t e d y o u ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: H e s a i d w e h a v e a p p o in t e d y o u t o l e a d u s , so lead us. CHAIRPERSON: But he was not part of SAA? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H e w a s n o t p a r t o f S A A h e n c e C h a ir . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h o w c o u l d h e h a v e b e e n p a r t o f a p p o in t in g y o u , d o you know? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 C h a ir a f t e r t h e – a f t e r h e r e a d t h e W h a t s a p p fr o m M r M n g a d i I c a ll e d M s Ya k i K u n a n a to s a y t h is i s n o t w h a t I s ig n e d u p f o r, i t l o o k s l ik e n o w I’ m t a p p i n g i n t o d a m a g i n g t h e in t e g r i ty a n d m y n a m e , i f I a m a s k e d t o s i g n t h in g s t h a t a r e b e y o n d m y m a n d a t e t h a t a r e t h e B o a r d ’s m a n d a te , t h i s is n o t w h a t I s i g n e d u p f o r a n d th e n .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t to g o b a c k , I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c t ly. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . He sent you a Whatsapp message or was it a t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s a W h a ts a p p C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s a y i n g w e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W e a p p o in t e d y o u t o l e a d u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : .. . l e a d u s , w e a p p o in t e d y o u t o l e a d u s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Th a t ’s w h a t i t ’s s a y i n g t h e W h a ts a p p C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s , o k a y c o n t in u e . Page 228 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t h e n c a ll e d w i t h fr u s tr a ti o n M s Ya k i K u n a n a a s I h a v e r e l a te d e a r li e r C h a ir t h a t I w o r k e d w it h h e r a t D e n e l t o s a y t h i s i s ta n t a m o u n t t o t a r n is h i n g m y r e p u t a ti o n b e c a u s e i f n o w I a m a s k e d to d o – t o s i g n t h i n g s t h a t a r e b e y o n d m y m a n d a te t h a t a r e t h e B o a r d I w il l n o t b e a b l e to d o th a t . Her response was if you feel t h a t y o u r in t e g r i t y is g o i n g t o b e t a r n i s h e d a n d y o u r n a m e d o n ’t – h e r w o r d s w h e r e “d o n ’ t e v e n w a l k a w a y r u n a w a y ” s o I e v e n r e s p o n d e d o n t h a t W h a t s a p p , n o r m a lly I d o n ’ t r e s p o n d o n s o m e W h a ts a p p , I r e s p o n d o n s o m e , I r e s p o n d e d t o M r M n g a d i o n t h a t d a y to s a y t h is is t h e B o a r d 10 m a n d a t e , i f I a m e x p e c t e d t o ta k e d e c i s i o n s t h i s is b e y o n d m y m a n d a te a n d u n f o r tu n a te ly w h e n I j o in e d S A A I w a s t o l d t h a t L e g a l n e e d s t o b e in v o lv e d , n o w b a s ic a l ly h i s W h a t s a p p w a n t e d m e n o t t o i n v o l v e L e g a l , b u t I n e v e r q u e s ti o n e d t h e p a r t o f w e a p p o in t e d y o u t o le a d u s , s o le a d us. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I j u s t w a n t t o g o t o t h a t W h a ts a p p m e s s a g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d , l e t’s g o t h e r e C h a ir, if I m a y s u g g e s t c a n w e d o t h e m i n c h r o n o l o g i c a l o r d e r, t h e W h a t s a p p s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s fi n e , t h a t’s f i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 S o w e w i ll s ta r t a t – o f M s N h a n ts i ’s b u n d l e page 84. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y I j u s t s u g g e s t e d to y o u t o s e e t h e p r o g r e s s i o n i n t i m e , b e c a u s e M s N h a n ts i’s e v i d e n c e is t h a t t h e r e w a s in c r e a s i n g p r e s s u r e p l a c e d o n h e r a n d i f y o u r e a d t h e s e W h a ts a p p s i n c h r o n o lo g y y o u s e e t h a t p r e s s u r e m o u n t i n g . Page 229 of 266 I f w e b e g i n a t 8 4 i t’s a 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 W h a t s a p p I h a v e a t 3 1 M a y s o t h a t’s s i x d a y s a f t e r th e y h a d b e e n a w a r d e d th e s o u r c i n g o f fu n d s , s ix d a y s a f te r t h e f ir s t l e tt e r s a y in g w e w a n t a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e o f 5 0 % o f o u r t o ta l fe e s . I t ta lk s a b o u t o n p a g e 8 4 a s t h e y h a v e i t a w h o le lo t o f r e a s o n s w h y t h e y s h o u l d b e g e t t in g t h is c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , i t ’s a b o u t c o s ts t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n i n c u r r in g e tc e t e r a , b u t w h a t I t h i n k i s u s e f u l i s i f w e g o o v e r to 8 5 , y o u w i ll . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e ju s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e te n e s s I d i d n ’ t s e e t h i s , m a y b e to th e e x te n t t h a t s o m e o f t h e m h a v e g o t s o m e 10 s e n te n c e s in is i X h o s a o r is i Zu l u , i f a r r a n g e m e n ts c a n b e m a d e f o r a tr a n s l a ti o n a n d – o f t h o s e p a r ts w h ic h a r e n o t in E n g l is h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Indeed. J a , I w il l u n d e r s t a n d it b u t s o m e b o d y e l s e m i g h t n o t understand. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , I h a v e p r e v io u s ly b e e n a s s i s t e d w i th a tr a n s l a ti o n b y o n e o f o u r i n v e s ti g a t o r s b u t w e w ill d o t h a t fo r m a l ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t’s f i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Th a n k y o u . W e w i ll d o t h a t a n d w e w i ll ju s t s u p p l e m e n t t h e b u n d le w i t h t h o s e tr a n s l a t i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t ’s f in e j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f w e g o to p a g e 8 5 I w o u l d l ik e to p ic k i t u p in th e m id d le o f t h e p a g e , M s N h a n t s i w h a t y o u s e e t h e r e is j u s t a li t tl e b i t a b o v e t h e m i d d l e , t h is is t h e s o r t o f c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e ju s t i fic a ti o n : Page 230 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 “ W h e n S A A’s c u s t o m e r s c a n c e l o r c h a n g e ti c k e t s S A A c h a r g e s c a n c e l la t io n f e e . W e w a n t e d 7 5 % c a n c e l la t io n f e e s b u t i n d e a li n g i n g o o d f a i t h w i t h S A A s o w e n e g o ti a t e w e e n d a t 5 0 % . W e a s k f o r B n P ’s a c t u a l c a n c e ll a ti o n c o s ts a r e . ” M s N h a n ts i y o u w i ll h a v e h e a r d t h e e v id e n c e o f M r v a n d e r M e r w e d i d y o u n o t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e a w a r e t h a t h e d e n i e s a n y o f t h o s e c o s ts h a d b e e n i n c u r r e d . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n ’ t k n o w th a t a t t h e t i m e th o u g h d i d you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d id n ’t k n o w C h a ir. If we go to point 2 it says: “ R a y y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u t a k e i n s t r u c t io n s fr o m Ya k i, u n l e s s Ya k i a n d t h e C h a ir c o m e s u p w i th a u n a n i m o u s p o s i t io n with respect ....” Yo u w i ll h a v e t o a s s i s t m e t h e r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n ’ t k n o w. Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w ? W e ll w e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) T h a t’s w h a t h e ’s s a y i n g , ( i n d is ti n c t) m e a n s I d o n ’ t k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O h I s e e , I d o n ’ t k n o w. Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t’s e i th e r I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) Page 231 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: E it h e r I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d o r I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u r e a d o n th e r e , h e g o e s o n t o say? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: “ Yo u r a l l e r g e n s I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e a p a r t o f o u r c o ll e c t iv e t e a m . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 C o u l d y o u j u s t s t o p th e r e , w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o b e , w h a t t e a m w e r e y o u a m e m b e r o f w i th M r M n g a d i? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I d id n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir, t h i s is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t I d i d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d o n h is p r e s s u r e , h e n c e I e n d e d u p c a l li n g Ya k i t o s a y m a y b e I g o t t h e w r o n g m e m o w h e n I s i g n e d u p w it h S A A , t h is is n o t w h a t I s i g n e d u p fo r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i i n t h e s e W h a t s a p p s th a t y o u ’v e p r o v i d e d t o u s w e o f t e n s e e w h a t M n g a d i s a i d b u t n o t w h a t y o u ’v e s a id e i t h e r p r io r o r a f te r t h e s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s , c a n I t a k e i t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a d i ff ic u l ty p r o v i d in g th o s e to t h e C o m m i s s i o n ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o m e o f t h e m I n e v e r r e s p o n d e d , th e o n e s t h a t I h a v e I w il l g iv e i t to y o u C o m m i s s io n . ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: Thank you. I’ m just i n t e r e s te d . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y, I th i n k s h e m u s t ju s t c o m p le t e t h a t message. Page 232 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Indeed. Please c o m p l e te t h is message because you u n d e r s t a n d t h e i s i X h o s a o r is i Zu lu t h e r e , y o u p r o v i d e w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: J a , ( in d is ti n c t) m e a n s m y a p o l o g ie s i f I m is u n d e r s t o o d , h a v e a g o o d d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n i f w e g o o v e r to 8 7 . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : S o . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. .. . h e r e th is l a s t s e n te n c e s o r tw o o f t h a t W h a t s a p p m e s s a g e h e c o n v e y s t o y o u th a t h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t y o u w e r e p a r t o f w h a t h e c a l ls o u r c o ll e c t iv e t e a m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. And you say you didn’t understand what he was t a lk in g a b o u t . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s , I d i d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir b u t o n th e 3 1 s t o f M a y b e c a u s e i t w a s t h e f ir s t W h a ts a p p t h a t t a l k s a b o u t th e t e a m I d id n ’t d o a n y th i n g a b o u t i t , I w il l c h e c k i f I r e s p o n d e d , b u t n o w a s th e 20 p r e s s u r e m o u n t e d w h e r e n o w h e w a s t e ll i n g m e t o d o th i n g s , i f I d o n ’ t d o I m u s t in f o r m h i m b e c a u s e h e n e e d s t o i n fo r m t h e s t a k e h o l d e r s w h ic h I d id n ’ t k n o w w h o th e s ta k e h o l d e r s w e r e , t h a t’s w h e n I d e c i d e d to c a l l Ms K u n a n a , to s a y I a m n o t s u r e if t h is is w h a t I s ig n e d u p f o r, b e c a u s e i t l o o k s l ik e n o w w e a r e t a p p i n g i n to m y in t e g r i ty a n d i n h o w I d o t h i n g s , b e c a u s e I w o u ld n e v e r s i g n u p f o r a n y t h i n g , t h e tr a n s a c t io n s Page 233 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h a t b e l o n g s t o t h e B o a r d I r e s p e c t e d a n d th r o u g h o u t m y e v id e n c e I h a v e b e e n r e s p e c t in g th e fa c t t h a t th e y a r e t h e b o a r d ’s tr a n s a c ti o n . S o n o w h e w a n t e d m e t o ju s t s i g n t h e t e r m s h e e t a n d ta k e o u t n o n - b i n d i n g w i t h o u t a d d r e s s i n g t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e , y e t o n B n P ’s a c k n o w l e d g m e n t o f t h e s o u r c i n g o f fu n d s th e y in c l u d e d th is c a n c e l la t io n fe e . S o t h a t i s w h y o n t h e f ir s t p a r t o f t h e W h a ts a p p h e s a y s w h y a m I c o m b i n i n g t w o is s u e s , w h y a m I c o m b i n i n g th e t e r m s h e e t a n d t h e c a n c e l la t io n fe e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B y t h e ti m e y o u g o t t h is m e s s a g e y o u – w e r e y o u s ti ll 10 f e e li n g c o m f o r t a b l e a b o u t M r M n g a d i’s r o l e i n th e s e S A A m a t t e r s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I w a s n o t c o m f o r t a b l e a t a ll , i n fa c t t h e p r e s s u r e C h a ir I w a s n o t o n ly g e t ti n g i t fr o m M r M n g a d i , I w a s a ls o g e t t in g c a l ls fr o m t h e C h a i r o f t h e B o a r d , m a y b e I m is s e d th is a t th e b e g in n i n g to s a y w h e n I f ir s t j o in e d S A A I w o u l d s a y w e w e r e s t il l o n g o o d t e r m s w it h ( i n d is t in c t) , s h e o n c e t o l d m e t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y n o b o d y c a n fi n d a n y th in g o n h e r i s b e c a u s e s h e d o e s n o t w r it e a n y t h i n g d o w n , s o s h e w o u ld h a r d ly s e n d t h e s e W h a t s a p p s b u t s h e w o u l d g i v e m e a c a ll t o s a y y o u a n d M o s s a th in k t h is i s b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l, it is n o t b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l , y o u n e e d t o s ig n th e s e t h in g s u r g e n tl y, t h e f u n d e r s 20 a r e i n P a r i s a n d s o m e w h e r e a n d w a it i n g fo r t h e t e r m s h e e t a n d y e t I a m p l a y in g a r o u n d . CHAIRPERSON: So how soon after you had commenced your work at S A A d i d s h e m a k e th is s ta t e m e n t to y o u t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y n o th i n g c o u l d b e f o u n d o n h e r is th a t s h e d i d n o t s i g n a n y th i n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I ’ m s u r e i t w a s a w e e k o r tw o C h a ir, w e w e r e Page 234 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 ju s t c h a t ti n g o u t s i d e t h e b o a r d m e e t in g C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: A n d t h e n it s ta r t e d , s h e a s k e d m e i f I k n o w a n y – s h e s a i d s h e is p o p u l a r in t h e m e d i a a n d h a v e I r e a d a n y t h i n g . I s a i d I’v e r e a d a b o u t S A A a n d i n t h e a c c o u n t in g s p a c e w e a r e n o r m a ll y very busy but I have heard about her name and then she said, she la u g h e d a n d t h e n s h e s a i d t h e r e a s o n w h y n o b o d y c a n f in d a n y t h i n g p o i n t i n g t o h e r is b e c a u s e s h e d o e s n o t w r it e a n y t h i n g d o w n . I u s e d i t t o my a d v a n t a g e l a te r o n C h a ir w h a t s h e t o l d m e b e c a u s e I ju s t l a u g h e d 10 a n d t h e n I s a id s e r i o u s ( i n d is t in c t ) s e r io u s C h a ir a n d t h e n s h e s a i d y e s , b u t I u s e d i t t o my a d v a n t a g e a s th e ti m e g o e s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e c o u l d t h e n t u r n o v e r to 8 7 M s N h a n ts i b e c a u s e th is is a W h a ts a p p , i t’s n o t o b v i o u s f r o m t h e p a g e w h a t d a t e i t w a s o n b u t I t a k e i t t o b e th e 2 n d o f J u n e b e c a u s e i t’s r e fe r r i n g to t h a t le t t e r t h a t y o u ’d s e n t o n t h e 2 n d o f J u n e w h i c h d i d n ’ t i n c l u d e th e b i n d i n g , it h a d t h a t c a v e a t a b o u t b e i n g n o n - b i n d i n g , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s C h a ir. I r e a l ly w o u l d lik e u s t o u n p a c k t h o s e fi r s t f e w s e n te n c e s o n t h e p a g e , l e t ’s s t a r t w i th t h e fir s t S i s W a m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M y s is t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M y s is t e r. T h is l e t t e r y o u h a v e s e n t w i t h r e s p e c t m e a n s n o th i n g , a n d I’ m r e a lly i n t e r e s te d i n th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e a n d y o u r h e l p w i t h t h a t. I t r e a d s : “ I t is o f n o u s e t o th e fu n d e r s , to m e , t o e v e r y o n e . ” Page 235 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 W h o is t h e e v e r y o n e t h a t is g o i n g to b e n e fi t fr o m a c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e f u n d i n g a r r a n g e m e n t a n d a g r e e m e n t o n th e c a n c e l la t io n fe e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M y – t h e o n ly p e r s o n a t t h is p o i n t C h a ir t h a t I k n e w n o w e s p e c ia ll y g e t t in g u n c o m f o r ta b l e a t t h is p o i n t I w o u l d s a y is th e C h a i r o f th e B o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t th e n g o e s o n t o s a y : “ W e m i g h t a s w e l l h a v e w a i t e d fo r y o u t o g e t B o a r d a p p r o v a l f o r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e c l a u s e . ” W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t o m e a n ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B a s ic a lly h e e x p e c t e d m e C h a ir t o s ig n t h e t e r m s h e e t a n d n o t in c l u d e th e n o n - b i n d i n g , I w a s tr y i n g t o r e a d t h e e n t ir e , b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s s o m e w h e r e h e s a y s w h y a m I m i x i n g t h e t w o , t h e te r m s h e e t a n d th e c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e b e c a u s e h e s a i d h e w a s u n d e r p r e s s u r e fr o m t h e f u n d e r s a n d th e f u n d e r s a r e n o w t h e ir v i e w is th e y a r e n o t t a k i n g , th e y t h i n k S A A i s n o t s e r i o u s in g e t t in g th e f u n d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hmm. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s s a y in g h e w a s u n d e r p r e s s u r e , M r M n g a d i. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Mr M n g a d i . But why would he be, have any contact with the f u n d e r s o f S A A s i n c e h e w a s o u ts i d e o f S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H e w a s w o r k i n g w it h B n P. H e w a s w o r k in g w i t h B n P C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h fr o m t h a t c a p a c it y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 236 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r M n g a d i C h a ir a t th is p o i n t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e c h r o n o l o g y i s s e e k i n g t o m o t iv a t e f o r t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e b e c a u s e i f i t s p a i d t o B n P i t h e i s s i t ti n g a s s o c ia t e d w i t h B n P a t t h a t p o in t . I f w e c a n t h e n g o o n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – I’ m s o r r y a g a i n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e – th e p ic t u r e w e h a v e is o f M r M n g a d i w h o a t t h e t i m e y o u a r r iv e d a t S A A y o u w e r e t o l d w a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s person? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d y o u e s ta b lis h e d t h a t h e w a s n o t b e i n g p a i d f o r h is s e r v i c e s b y S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o n e v e r th e l e s s w a s v e r y i n v o lv e d i n S A A m a t t e r s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n a t t h e s a m e s t a g e y o u e s t a b l is h e d th a t h e was part of Nedbank? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n la t e r o n y o u f o u n d t h a t h e w a s in v o lv e d w it h 20 BnP? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s b e c a u s e h e s t a r t e d g i v i n g m e p r e s s u r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t th r o u g h o u t o r a s a t t h e t i m e o f t h i s W h a ts a p p m e s s a g e a s fa r a s y o u k n e w h e w a s s t i ll i n v o l v e d w i t h a ll o f th e s e p e o p l e , h e w a s s ti ll in v o lv e d w i th N e d b a n k a n d s t il l i n v o l v e d w i t h B n P Page 237 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 a n d w a s s ti ll a s y o u w e r e t o ld t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s p e r s o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a s s u m e d C h a i r t h a t h e w a s .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i w e r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y p e r s o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n Mr M n g a d i a n d a n y o n e i n Ms N e n e ’s fa m i ly ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: F a m ily ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir I w a s n o t u n ti l I r e a d o n e o f t h e a ffi d a v i ts t h a t I g o t fr o m t h e C o m m i s s io n t h a t – a n d a l s o t h e tr a n s c r ip t t h a t M s K u n a n a h a d w i t h O U TA th a t h e is f r ie n d s w i t h – I j u s t f o r g o t h is n a m e , b u t i t’s Ms C h a i r ’s s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ta l e n t e M a j e n i ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s , y e s M r Ta l e n t e M a je n i, s o I k n e w i t , l a s t w e e k I t h i n k o n Fr id a y w h e n I g o t .. .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n ’ t k n o w th a t p r io r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u e v e r s e e h i m a r r iv e a t S A A w i t h M r 20 M a je n e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I n e v e r s a w h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir w e w il l r e t u r n to t h a t i n t h e c o u r s e o f M r M h la n g u ’s e v i d e n c e , b u t in r e l a ti o n to w h a t c a r r i e s o n , o n p a g e 8 7 I w o u l d ju s t l ik e t o p ic k u p a p o i n t m i d w a y d o w n w h e r e M r Mngadi says: Page 238 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 “ I th o u g h t t h e B o a r d R e s o lu t io n w a s c ir c u l a te d y e s te r d a y t o b e d e a lt w i t h to d a y. ” W e r e y o u t e l li n g h i m w h e n b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s w e r e b e in g c ir c u l a t e d within SAA? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o c e r ta i n i n fo r m a t i o n M r M n g a d i w o u l d k n o w a n d t h e n I a s s u m e d t h a t h e w a s g e t t in g t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n fr o m C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s c e r t a i n l y t h a t s e e m s t o b e a p p a r e n t fr o m t h e W h a t s a p p m e s s a g e s . Th e o t h e r o n e I c a n th in k o f is th e o n e t h a t 10 h e s e n d s y o u o n th e 2 3 r d o f M a y. R e m e m b e r t h e 2 3 r d o f M a y is b e f o r e t h e b o a r d h a s a p p r o v e d th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f B n P t o s o u r c e t h e fu n d s , w e ll t h e s e c o n d t i m e l e t m e b e c l e a r t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e i t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e W h a ts a p p c o m m u n i c a t io n w i th Mr M n g a d i h a s h i m s a y i n g to y o u : “ I k n o w t h e C h a ir h a s a p p r o v e d b u t w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t o t h e o th e r t w o . ” D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t W h a ts a p p ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I w o u ld s u g g e s t t o y o u th a t ’s a fu r th e r in d i c a t io n t h a t h e w a s r e c e iv in g in f o r m a t io n a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w i t h i n th e d e c is i o n m a k i n g o f S A A . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d n o t fr o m y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t fr o m m e C h a ir. Page 239 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . If w e t h e n g o o v e r to p a g e 8 9 , th is is a W h a ts a p p w h e r e a s I r e a d i t th e r e w a s a r e fe r e n c e d ir e c t ly t o th e C h a ir, t h i s i s g o in g o n M s N h a n ts i a b o u t w h y y o u h a v e t o s ig n t h is t e r m s h e e t a n d w h y t h i s is n e e d e d f o r S A A , a n d th e n i t g o e s , t h is i s t h e o n e , s o r r y y o u w e r e l o o k i n g fo r i t – w h y li n k t h e s e i s s u e s w i t h th e t e r m sheet. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s a t t h e b o t to m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t th e o n e I’ m in t e r e s te d i n is c a n y o u j u s t r e a d f o r u s t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e a n d t r a n s la t e i t t h e r e ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t i s s a y i n g p l e a s e t a l k to t h e C h a ir . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, a r e y o u a t 8 9 ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 8 9 ? Is i t p a g e 8 9 t h a t y o u a s k e d u s t o b e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m tr y i n g t o – I d i d n ’ t s e e w h a t s h e h a s j u s t r e a d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t o n p a g e 8 9 ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s th e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s t h e la s t t w o s e n te n c e s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e l a s t tw o s e n t e n c e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e la s t t w o li n e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, I’ m l o o k i n g a t t h e t o p , o k a y, y e s . Page 240 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t is s a y in g p l e a s e ( A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ) m e a n i n g p l e a s e c a n y o u t a lk t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s h e is e x p e c t i n g y o u r call. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u t a k e t h a t to m e a n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A s a – I t h i n k n o w I t a k e t h is a s m o r e h e ’s g iv e n u p n o w, h e ’s g iv in g m e – h a n d i n g m e b a c k t o t h e C h a ir t o t a lk t o t h e C h a ir o f th e B o a r d . I w il l c h e c k t h e d a te s C h a ir, I t h i n k t h is is t h e 8 t h o f J u n e . S o I a m w i t h a ll t h is b a c k w a r d s a n d fo r w a r d s w a it i n g f o r t h e B o a r d n o w s h e i s h a n d in g m e , t h is is th e – t h is is th e th is i s a l s o 10 li n k e d to t h e e m a i l t h a t I g o t fr o m h i m o n t h e 8 t h o f J u n e . I t w a s f o r t h e e m a i l fr o m M r M o g a d i t o m e a n d M o o s a a n d th e o n ly b o a r d m e m b e r t h a t w a s c o p ie d w a s t h e C h a ir, M s My e n i( ? ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’ v e in c l u d e d th a t e m a il ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , I d i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , w e c a n g o t o t h a t i n a m o m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: A t th is s t a g e , I’ m s o r r y. A t t h is s t a g e , h o w m a n y B o a r d m e m b e r s d i d th e B o a r d h a v e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h r e e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S ti ll t h r e e ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S t il l t h r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : In c l u d i n g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n t h e n g o t o b u t t o 9 1 . C h a ir th is i s t h e W h a t s A p p y o u w e r e p a r tic u la r ly k e e n t o t a k e a l o o k a t . Page 241 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is is t h e o n e M s N h a n ts i , a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u g o t e a r ly o n t h a t m o r n i n g t h a t y o u w e r e s c h e d u l e d t o m e e t a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e y o u h a v e t h e r e fe r e n c e a f t e r h i m in d i c a t in g h e h o p e d y o u h a d a r e s tf u l e v e n i n g , w h e r e h e s a y s y o u h a v e b e e n c h o s e n to l e a d S A A t o le a d u s . I h a v e fa i th in y o u t o p l e a s e d e m o n s t r a t e y o u r l e a d e r s h i p q u a l i ti e s , y o u t a k e d e c is io n s n o t l e g a l . D o 10 you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n h e g o e s o n t o e x p l a i n a g a i n w h y h e n e e d s a s i g n e d o ff t e r m s h e e t w i th o u t c o n d it io n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h e e n d s o ff s a y i n g t h a t h e w a n t s to i n fo r m a l l t h e s ta k e h o l d e r s . W h o a r e a ll t h e s e s t a k e h o l d e r s h e w a n ts t o i n f o r m a b o u t t h e s u c c e s s f u l c o n c l u s i o n o f th e t e r m s h e e t, d o y o u t h i n k ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a s s u m e d i t w o u l d b e t h e C h a ir a n d a ls o th e G r is s a g 20 Fu n d e r s because on all th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s h e ’s been c o n s i s te n t in s a y i n g th e F u n d e r s i s o u t in C a n a d a , i n P a r is a n d e v e r y w h e r e a w a i ti n g f o r th e te r m s h e e t s t h a t d o e s n o t h a v e t h e n o n e b i n d i n g b e c a u s e h e e v e n o n t h e o th e r S M S o n t h e o th e r W h a ts A p p s a i d t h e y ’r e e x p e c ta t io n - a ll o w m e t o j u s t o n p a g e 8 9 . He said the i m p r e s s io n c r e a t e d is t h a t S A A d o e s n o t w a n t t h is f u n d i n g , t h e f u n d i n g t e r m s h e e t y o u s a y i s n o t b i n d i n g i s s u b j e c t t o i s s u e s th a t h a v e n o th i n g Page 242 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 to do with a term sheet. I don’t know what to say to the Funders ( Af r ic a n L a n g u a g e ) m e a n s I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t o s a y to th e Fu n d e r s n o w. P l e a s e l e t u s w i th d r a w t h e l e t te r. S o t h i s is t h e W h a t s A p p w h e r e h e is in s t r u c t i n g m e e v e n t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h a t W h a ts A p p h e s a y s i f w e d o n ’t l e a d t h is a i r l in e , s o m e o n e e l s e w ill l e a d i t fo r u s . w h e n I s a y w e d o n ’ t h a v e ti m e . B e li e v e m e If y o u c a n ’ t e x e c u t e m y r e q u e s t b y la t e s t 9 o ’c l o c k t h is m o r n i n g , p l e a s e le t m e k n o w in t h e m o r n i n g s o t h a t I c a n in f o r m a ll th e s t a k e h o ld e r s a c c o r d i n g ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i , a t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e r e c e i v i n g 10 these WhatsApps were you concerned about the closeness of his r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M s M y e n i? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , I w a s a n d I w a s a l w a y s i n d i s c u s s i o n w i t h a ll w h a t is h a p p e n i n g w i t h Mr Z w a n e . I u s e d t o e v e n a s k is th is how the Corporate world works? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e ’ v e h a d s o m e r e f e r e n c e s to te a m s a n d t h e c o l le c t iv e i n th e s e W h a ts A p p s . W a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t th e p e r s o n s w h o s t o o d t o b e n e f it fr o m t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e in c l u d e d Ms M y e n i ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s , I d i d b e c a u s e o n t h e b a s is th a t t h e M r 20 M o g a d i w o u l d k n o w w h a t w e d is c u s s i n th e B o a r d m e e t in g a n d w it h o u t m e in f o r m i n g h i m . S o I t h e n u n d e r s to o d t h a t h e i s w o r k i n g w i th M s Myeni. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i, w h y d i d n ’ t y o u s o u n d th e a l a r m then? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : C h a ir, I w a s g o i n g to - w e d i s c u s s e d t h is w i t h Page 243 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M r Z w a n e t o s a y th is is s t a r ti n g to s u g g e s t s o m e t h in g e ls e . A n d I e v e n a s k e d M r Z w a n e w h a t is t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e w h is t le b l o w e r a n d a ll t h a t . H e t h e n s a i d , n o le t ’s s e e h o w t h i s g o e s b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d is n o t g o in g t o a p p r o v e th e c a n c e l la t io n f e e . E v e n C h a ir a ll o w m e t o s a y, e v e n t u a l ly a ft e r I s ig n e d t h e t e r m s h e e t a n d t o o k o u t , i t w a s o n th e d a y w h e n M s M y e n i c a ll e d m e . I t o l d h e r t h a t I w il l o n ly t a k e i t o u t if s h e a g r e e s w i t h m e t h a t I w i ll s til l- I ’ m s ti ll g o i n g to d e a l w i t h t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . I c a n ta k e o u t t h e n o n b i n d i n g s o t h a t th e F u n d e r s c a n g o a n d g i v e m o n e y b u t t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e I ’ m s ti ll g o in g t o t a k e i t t o t h e B o a r d . I 10 r e c a l l th a t fr o m o u r c o n v e r s a t io n , M r Zw a n e g o t a c a ll fr o m t h e C h a i r t o a s k h o w m u c h is h is D O A , h o w m u c h c a n h e s i g n u p to . M r Z w a n e s a i d u p t o 5 0 m il li o n . A n d t w o d a y s l a te r w e r e c e i v e d a r e v is e d c a n c e ll a ti o n le t t e r fr o m B N P C a p i ta l s a y in g t h e y ’r e tr y i n g t o p u t u s a t e a s e b e c a u s e w e ’v e b e e n s a y i n g th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e is h i g h . N o w t h e y ’v e r e d u c e d i t t o 4 9 .9 m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: Th is w a s a f te r y o u h a d i n s is te d to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t y o u w a n t e d th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o r a i s e t h e i s s u e o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e w i th th e B o a r d e v e n i f y o u t o o k o u t o r c a n c e l l e d th e n o n b i n d i n g s t a te m e n t . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a f t e r th a t t h e a m o u n t w a s r e d u c e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: To 4 9 .9 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: S o w h i c h w a s s u s p i c i o u s C h a ir o n e B N P f a il e d to d e m o n s tr a t e th e m a k e - u p o f 1 2 8 m il li o n . Page 244 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I f I r e c a ll o n t h e ir l e t t e r t h e r e ’s s o m e w h e r e w h e r e , I t h i n k t h e s e c o n d l e tt e r o f j u s ti fy i n g t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . T h e y s a i d , G r i s s a g is g o in g t o c h a r g e t h e m 5 m i lli o n U S d o ll a r s i f t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n is c a n c e ll e d . S o t h is i s j u s t a d ir e c t fi l te r a s t h e y g e t t h e p e n a l ty fr o m G r i s s a g , th e y th e n s e n d i n g i t t o S A A . Fr o m t h e r e C h a i r it ’s t h e n r e d u c e d t o m i r a c u lo u s a m o u n t o f 4 9 . 9 m il li o n w h i c h I k n e w a t t h e t i m e a n d a ls o t h e a c t in g C h a ir k n e w t h a t M s M y e n i is b e h i n d i t . B e c a u s e h e c a ll e d h i m , I t h i n k t h e r e a s o n w h y h e c a l le d h i m w a s h e 10 w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n d o e s n o t g o t o t h e B o a r d . B e c a u s e it w a s a f t e r I s a i d t o h e r, I ’ m g o in g t o ta k e t h e c a n c e la t io n f e e t o th e B o a r d s t il l e v e n i f I t a k e o u t t h e n o n b i n d in g . So I then did a s u b m is s io n f o r r o u n d - r o b i n b e c a u s e C h a ir a g a in t h is w a s i n th e p u r v i e w o f t h e B o a r d a n d i n t e r m s o f t h e S C M p o l ic y te r m , n o w th is w a s a n a d d it i o n a m o u n t to t h e 2 5 6 m il li o n i n c l u s i v e o f v a t . So what she was n o t a w a r e o f n o n e t h e l e s s I ’ m g o i n g to t a k e i t t o , w e ’r e g o i n g to t a k e i t to the Board. S o I d id th e s u b m i s s i o n C h a ir t o th e B o a r d a n d t h e n I c a l l e d D r T h a m b i a n d I a l s o c a ll e d M s M y e n i to s a y t h e r e ’s a r o u n d r o b i n t h a t r o u t e s t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y is g o i n g to s e n d , I ’ m n o t 20 c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h e a m o u n t b u t C h a i r is p u s h i n g i t . I r e m e m b e r I e v e n s a i d to M s K w i n a n a t h a t I ’ m s c a r e d n o w o f e v e n p u s h i n g t h is f u r th e r. C a n t h e y ta k e a d e c is i o n b e c a u s e I ’v e b e e n - C h a ir h a s b e e n c a ll in g m e d a y a n d n i g h t a b o u t t h is , c a n t h e B o a r d t a k e a d e c is io n , I a m s c a r e d . I a b s ta in e d I th in k C h a i r th e i n t e n t io n w a s n o t t o a b s t a in b u t I w a s v e r y b u s y b u t I k n e w t h a t I’ m n o t g o in g t o a p p r o v e i t, I w a s g o i n g t o r e j e c t Page 245 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 b u t I a b s t a in e d . A n d D r Th a m b i a b s t a i n e d a f te r m y c a l l , Ya k h e a b s ta in e d , Mr Z w a n e r e j e c te d a n d M s M y e n i a p p r o v e d i t . I t h i n k b e fo r e s h e a p p r o v e d i t s h e g a v e m e a c a l l to a s k w h y a m I t a k i n g th i n g s t h a t a r e n o t c o n c e r n in g t h e B o a r d t o t h e B o a r d . I to l d h e r th a t i t i s p a r t o f t h e i t ’s a n a d d i t io n a n d e s p e c i a l ly i t’s a n e w t e r m t h a t I n e e d e d t o g i v e t o th e B o a r d a n d t h e B o a r d m u s t d e l ib e r a te o n it b e c a u s e th is is t h e B o a r d t r a n s a c t io n s o s h e s a i d o k a y a n d t h e n s h e r e s p o n d e d . T h e n a s M s H o f m e y r a s k e d M s T h e m b i le t o r e a d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I s e e w e ’r e a t 1 7 h 3 0 . T h e r e a r e a f e w f o ll o w u p q u e s t io n s b u t I’ m h a p p y t o r a i s e th e m t o m o r r o w. T h e r e ’s n o t m u c h m o r e o f M s N h a n ts i ’s t e s t i m o n y. Th e r e ’s t h i s a s p e c t o n t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e w h i c h w e ’ ll c o n c lu d e s h o r tl y a n d th e n o n e o r tw o o th e r a s p e c t o f h e r e v id e n c e t o tr a v e r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f it ’s g o i n g t o fi n i s h w it h i n t h e n e x t 1 0 1 5 m i n u t e s o r e v e n u p t o s i x i f y o u a r e s ti ll s tr o n g e n o u g h a n d i f Ms N h a n ts i is s ti ll a v a i la b le t o c o n ti n u e , I a m p r e p a r e d t o c o n ti n u e u n til a t l e a s t 6 o ’c l o c k if t h a t w i ll h e l p u s t o m a k e s u r e s h e i s d o n e . W o u l d t h a t b e e n o u g h o r w o u ld t h a t n o t b e e n o u g h ? 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, m y f e a r is t h a t i t w il l b e a b it m o r e t h a n h a l f a n h o u r b u t th a t ’s n o t a r e a s o n n o t t o u s e i t n o w. A n d t h e n i f w e h a v e t o p ic k i t u p b r i e fly t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g to d o s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u s t ill f e l l s tr o n g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m s tr o n g e n o u g h C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M s N h a n ts i , a r e y o u a b le t o c o n ti n u e to tr y a n d s e e if Page 246 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w e c a n fi n i s h ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir, I a m s tr o n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l r i g h t , le t ’s g o a t le a s t u p t o s ix a n d l e t ’s l o o k a t t h e s i t u a t io n a t t h a t t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. M s N h a n t s i , w h a t I ’d l ik e t o p ic k u p o n i n r e l a t i o n to y o u r la s t a n s w e r i s w e w e r e a t a b o u t t h e 8 t h o f J u n e w h e n y o u t o l d u s y o u h a d th a t c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h th e C h a ir, y o u 10 s a i d o k a y I’ ll s ig n . .. ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, I’ m ju s t w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r s e e in g th a t w e w o n ’t g e t to M r M a h l a n g u w h e t h e r y o u w a n t t o m a k e a n y a r r a n g e m e n ts for about him. I’ m a s s u m i n g h e ’s h e r e b e c a u s e h e w a s m e a n t t o c o n ti n u e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e i s i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye a h , i n te r ms o f c o n t i n u i n g I ’ m ju s t t h in k i n g p e o p le might have had other plans. T h e y d i d n ’ t k n o w w e w o u l d g e t , o h h e ’s c a n c e l li n g t h e c a s e t h e n t h e r e ’s n o p r o b l e m . O k a y, n o t h a t ’s a lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s c o n t in u e th e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So on the 8th of June you signed a binding v e r s i o n o f t h e te r m s h e e t , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e y o u d i d s o a f t e r a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h t h e C h a ir, c o r r e c t ? Page 247 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n w h i c h y o u s a i d t h a t y o u w e r e s t ill g o i n g to t a k e t h e is s u e o f t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e t o t h e B o a r d , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b y th is s t a te y o u ’v e h a d a l l o f t h is p r e s s u r e in t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h M r M o g a d i . Now as I understand your e v i d e n c e , y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d th a t t h e C h a ir is u n d u ly i n v o lv e d in t h is , correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s t a n d s t o b e n e fi t fr o m it i n s o m e m e a s u r e , correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d o n ’ t y o u b l o w t h e w h i s tl e th e n ? W e s til l in J u n e , y o u o n l y g e t to y o u r s u b m is s i o n t o t h e B o a r d t o r e c o m m e n d t h is a p p r o v a l o n th e 4 t h o f J u ly. W h y n o t b lo w th e w h is tl e i n t h o s e t h r e e weeks? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir, b lo w in g t h e w h i s t l e I w a n te d t o b u t I m u s t a ls o a d m i t t h a t I w a s n o t f a m i li a r. T h i s w a s t h e fir s t ti m e th a t I le f t t h e a c c o u n t i n g p r a c tic e a n d I’ m i n t h e r e in th e C o r p o r a t e s p a c e . 20 S o b l o w i n g t h e w h i s t l e w il l n o t b e th e fir s t t h i n g t h a t c o m e t o my m i n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a d h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h M r Z w a n e a b o u t t h a t, h a v e n ’ t y o u t h o u g h ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I h a d a n d I a s k e d i n t e r m s o f r e p o r t in g t h i n g s lik e t h is w h a t th e n h a p p e n s . A n d h e to l d m e t h a t th e r e ’s a p o li c y t h e c u s t o d i a n i s th e C h i e f in t e r n a l a u d i t o r t h a t w e c a n r e p o r t th is t o . B u t I Page 248 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t w e s a id le t ’s - h e u s e d t o s a y i s i t k it f o r k a t , h e s a i d le t ’s ta k e i t o n e d a y a t a ti m e a n d s e e w h a t h a p p e n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t a k i n g i t o n e d a y a t a ti m e a s I h a v e i t t h e n c u l m i n a te s o n t h e 4 t h o f J u ly w h e r e y o u s e n d a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , t h i s w a s a ls o a f t e r l o ts o f p r e s s u r e . N o w t h e p r e s s u r e w a s a ls o c o m in g fr o m B N P i f I ’ m n o t m i s t a k e n . Th e y w r o t e a l e tt e r a s w e ll t o m e a b o u t t h e c a n c e l la t io n fe e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 B u t M s N h a n ts i , y o u o w e B N P n o t h i n g d o n ’ t you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , I d e fi n it e l y o w e B N P n o th i n g b u t I f e e l t h a t th e d e c is i o n n e e d s t o b e ta k e n b y th e B o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But why recomm end it? y o u a r e s a y i n g t o th e B o a r d , I s t a n d b e h i n d t h is . If you recommend it I f w e g o t o i t, le t ’s ju s t lo o k a t i t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye a h s u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e g o t o , it s S t i m p l e ’s b u n d l e t h a t ’s e x h ib i t DD1B. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s a t 5 5 5 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s , I ’ m t h e r e C h a ir. C h a ir, th is is I g u e s s I’ m a n s w e r i n g w h y I ’ m r e c o m m e n d i n g t o t h e B o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b e c a u s e c a n w e ju s t l o o k a t th e d o c u m e n t b e f o r e y o u g iv e u s t h e a n s w e r b e c a u s e i t ’s a m o t iv a ti o n fo r t h is c a n c e l a ti o n f e e t o b e a p p r o v e d . A n d i t i s y o u r m o t iv a ti o n , c o r r e c t? Page 249 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d o y o u m o t iv a te f o r a c a n c e la t io n f e e t h a t y o u a r e h i g h ly s u s p ic i o u s o f a t th is s t a g e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : C h a ir, f ir s t t h i s is t h e te m p l a te th a t S A A u s e t o c o m m u n ic a t e t o t h e B o a r d a n d i f y o u a s k m e t o d a y w h o e v e r c o m p a n y I’ ll b e w o r k i n g f o r, w h a t w o u l d I c h a n g e , i s th e l a s t p a g e w h e r e it ’s s a y in g r e c o m m e n d a t io n o r n o t r e c o m m e n d o r n o t r e c o m m e n d . T h i s is h o w t h e te m p l a te is b a s ic a l ly I’ m n o t s a y in g I’ m r e c o m m e n d in g t o th e B o a r d . I ’ m s a y in g th is is th e B o a r d fo r t h e ir c o n s id e r a ti o n h e n c e a f t e r I 10 e v e n w r o t e i t I c a ll e d D r T h a m b i a n d M s K w i n a n a t o s a y o n e I ’ m s c a r e d , t w o I ’ m - th e p r e s s u r e is m o u n t in g . I c a n ’ t e v e n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t o d o . C a n th e y n o w a s th e b o a r d d e a l w i t h t h e c a n c e la t io n f e e a n d t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f it . S o t h i s is a ll t h e m e m o s C h a ir t h a t w e ’v e d e a l t w i th t o d a y. To d a y th is is th e te m p l a te t h i s is t h e f o r m a t t h a t is u s e d b y S A A . T h e r e a r e c e r t a i n m e m o s t h a t w e a ls o t o o k t o t h e B o a r d t h a t a r e s a y i n g r e c o m m e n d t o a p p r o v e b u t th e B o a r d h a d d e c li n e d . S o t h is is t h e t e m p l a te f o r th e B o a r d f o r t h e ir c o n s i d e r a t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i , w i th r e s p e c t I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e f a c t t h a t i t i s a t e m p l a t e i s a n a n s w e r t o m y q u e s ti o n . Yo u t o o k a d e c is i o n 20 t o r e c o m m e n d to th e B o a r d o n t h e 4 t h o f J u ly m o ti v a t e d i n t h e te r ms r e c o r d e d h e r e f o r a c a n c e l a ti o n fe e to b e p a i d , c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : I to o k a d e c is i o n t o d o a m e m o t o t h e B o a r d f o r t h e ir c o n s id e r a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t c o n t a in e d . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, m a y b e l e t m e h e l p . I n t h a t m e m o , d i d y o u Page 250 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e c o m m e n d th a t th e B o a r d a p p r o v e t h e c a n c e l a ti o n fe e ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir a n d t h e r e a s o n f o r th a t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: No, is it yes? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u d i d a p p r o v e . Yo u d i d r e c o m m e n d . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I d i d r e c o m m e n d b u t i n c o n tr a r y .. . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r i s th e n a s k i n g t h e q u e s ti o n , w h y d id y o u 10 r e c o m m e n d th a t t h e B o a r d a p p r o v e t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e b e c a u s e y o u w e r e s u s p ic i o u s o f t h i s w h o l e th in g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir, i t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e o n e o f u s h a v e a g r e e d t h a t I’ v e d o n e t h e s u b m is s i o n r e c o m m e n d i n g t o t h e B o a r d . C h a ir it w a s t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t I w a s g e t ti n g fr o m M r M o g a d i , i t w a s th e p r e s s u r e th a t I w a s g e t t in g fr o m t h e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d M s M y e n i t o th e e x t e n t I r e m e m b e r t h i s is o n e o f th e th in g s th a t I d i s c u s s w i t h my h u s b a n d to s a y, I’ m n o t s u r e i f t h e d e c is io n t o j o in S A A w a s a g o o d o n e . B e c a u s e I’ m v e r y s c a r e d n o w w it h t h e d e c is i o n s t h a t n e e d s t o b e t a k e n b u t I e v e n s a i d I w i ll fo ll o w m y g u ts a n d c a l l t h e o t h e r B o a r d 20 m e m b e r s a n d a l e r t t h e m t h a t I ’ m c o n c e r n e d . B u t I w a s s c a r e d C h a ir a s w e ll to p u t i t o n w r i ti n g h e r e t o s a y, h e y I’ m s c a r e d a n d I ’ m n o t i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h is 4 9 . 9 m il li o n . B u t I w a s h o p i n g a n d I k n e w t h a t M r Z w a n e is n o t g o i n g t o a p p r o v e i t b e c a u s e w e ’v e b e e n d is c u s s i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o n e y o u a g r e e th a t t h e m e m o t h a t y o u s e n t t o t h e B o a r d r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e y s h o u l d a p p r o v e th e c a n c e l a t i o n f e e . Page 251 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 W e ’v e a g r e e d o n t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t i s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i n s e n d i n g i n m a k i n g t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t i o n , y o u w e r e u n e a s y a b o u t m a k in g t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n . But you made it because you were under p r e s s u r e , is t h a t p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u ta lk a b o u t y o u h a v i n g c a ll e d m e m b e r s o f t h e Board or having planned to call the me mbers of the Board or some 10 m e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d , is th a t r i g h t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Is th a t a d e c is io n y o u m a d e b e f o r e y o u m a d e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r b e f o r e y o u s e n t it t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o c a l l m e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I p la n n e d to c a ll m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d a s I w a s d o i n g t h e s u b m i s s i o n . I th e n t o o k t h e s u b m is s i o n a ft e r b o t h m y s e l f a n d a c t in g C E s ig n e d , w e f o l lo w e d th e p r o c e s s o f r o u n d - r o b i n a n d s e n t it t o c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y. O n c e i t w a s s ti ll w i t h c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y, I t h e n c a l le d t w o o th e r m e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d t o s a y . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o o u t o f t h e t h r e e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Tw o o u t o f th e t h r e e b e c a u s e t h e f ir s t o n e is M s M y e n i , i t’s t h e o n e w h o ’s g iv i n g m e p r e s s u r e . S o t h e r e ’s t h e o t h e r t w o m e m b e r s , I t h e n s a id t o th e m t h e r e ’s a r o u n d - r o b i n c o m in g . By t h e n c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y h a s n o t s e n t i t . T h e r e ’s a r o u n d - r o b i n c o m i n g , I’ m c o n c e r n e d . I e v e n s a i d I’ m s c a r e d a t b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t Page 252 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 I’ m g e t ti n g fr o m t h e C h a ir. I’ m c o n c e r n e d , th e a m o u n t is h i g h b u t c a n t h e B o a r d t a k e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d t h e a c c o u n ta b i li t y. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say to them when they see- did you say to t h e m t h e y w i ll r e c e i v e fr o m t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y a m e m o f r o m y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Fr o m t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y b u t t h e m e m o w o u l d b e written by you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u s a y t o t h e m i n t h a t m e m o y o u w i ll r e a d 10 t h a t I’ m r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t y o u a p p r o v e t h e c a n c e la t io n f e e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u t h e n s a y to t h e m t h a t ’s n o t m y tr u e v i e w. I ’v e w r i t t e n it l ik e t h a t b e c a u s e I’ m u n d e r p r e s s u r e . I’ m a c t u a ll y n o t in s u p p o r t o f t h e c a n c e la t io n fe e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I s a i d th a t , C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : To b o t h o f t h e m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: To b o th o f t h e m C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M s K w i n a n a s a id o k a y, s h e h e a r s m e . S h e w i ll w a i t f o r t h e m e m o t o c o m e t h r o u g h . D r T h a m b i s a i d t h e m e m o is n o t y e t w it h h i m , h e w ill c h e c k h i s i n b o x . S o I d i d n ’ t t h e n m a k e a f o l l o w u p b u t t h e y a b s t a i n e d fr o m v o ti n g fo r th i s d e c is i o n . S o C h a ir, I a ls o a b s ta in e d , M r Z w a n e r e j e c te d a n d C h a i r w a s t h e o n l y p e r s o n w h o Page 253 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 approved the cancelation fee. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i, I’ d l ik e t o j u s t c l a r if y s o m e a s p e c ts o f t h o s e c o n v e r s a t io n s y o u h a d w i th D r T h a m b i a n d M s K w i n a n a . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id t h e y g iv e y o u a n u n d e r ta k i n g o n t h a t c a ll t h a t th e y w o u l d v o t e a g a i n s t it ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o , t h e y d i d n o t. T h e y d i d n o t t e l l m e h o w t h e y w il l v o t e o n it . I r a is e d a ll m y c o n c e r n s , I r a is e d e v e r y th in g , th e y 10 s a i d t h e y h e a r m e . M s K w i n a n a s a i d s h e w i ll a p p ly h e r m i n d w h e n s h e g e t s i t . D r T h a m b i a s w e l l lis t e n e d t o m e a n d th e n s a id h e w il l c h e c k , h e w il l b e o n th e o u tl o o k t o c h e c k t h a t s u b m is s i o n th a t I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e y g a v e y o u n o g u a r a n te e a s to t h e w a y they would vote? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: D r T h a m b i g a v e m e n o g u a r a n te e b u t I c o u ld s e n s e f r o m t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t Ya k h e w o u l d n o t v o t e f o r i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t w a s f o r e s e e a b l e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, y o u s t o p t o s p e a k o f D r T h a m b i a n d Ya k h e . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o r r y, M s K w in a n a . S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, j u s t r e p e a t w h a t w h o in r e s p e c t o f w h o m d i d y o u g e t t h e s e n s e t h a t h e o r s h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o v o te in f a v o u r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir, I g o t t h e s e n s e fr o m Ms K w i n a n a a f t e r I r a is e d a ll m y c o n c e r n s t h a t s h e w i ll n o t s u p p o r t i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 254 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t w a s a s e n s e , i t w a s n ’ t a n u n d e r t a k in g correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I t w a s n o t a n u n d e r t a k i n g a t t h e t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w a s a f o r e s e e a b l e p o s s ib il it y th a t s h e m a y c o n s i d e r a n d v o t e i n f a v o u r o f i t? Ye s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: No, it was probably it was more probable t h a n n o t th a t s h e w ill n o t v o t e fo r i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s i t r e a s o n a b le f o r e s e e a b l e t h a t D r Thambi could vote either way? 10 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: H e d id n o t , I c o u l d n ’ t s e n s e a n y t h i n g . He s a i d h e w a s g o in g t o w a i t fo r t h e e m a il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e c o u l d h a v e v o t e d f o r, h e c o u l d h a v e v o t e d a g a in s t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ar e y o u a w a r e o f t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n s a r e p a s s e d b y m a j o r i ty v o t e o f t h e v o t e s c a s t . Are you a w a r e o f t h a t p r o v is i o n o f th e m e m o r a n d u m o f i n c o r p o r a t io n o f S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , I a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t ’s n o t t h e m a j o r it y o f t h e v o t e s a v a i l a b le , 20 it ’s t h e m a jo r i ty o f t h e v o te s c a s t w h ic h m e a n s t h a t i f B o a r d d ir e c t o r s a b s ta in , t h e y d o n ’ t c o u n t fo r t h e t o t a l n u m b e r t h a t y o u h a v e to g e t a m a jo r i ty v o t e o n . D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o , c o m e a g a in . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, l e t ’s ju s t g o t o th e m e m o r a n d u m o f in c o r p o r a t i o n . I t’s i n y o u r b u n d l e a t p a g e 1 5 2 . Page 255 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 1 5 2 , s o r r y. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’ ll s e e .. . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W h il e M s H o f m e y r y o u a r e lo o k in g a t th a t , c a n I j u s t a s k t h i s . A t s o m e s t a g e w h e n y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e m e m o t o t h e B o a r d t h a t w e a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t fr o m y o u t h a t w a s g o in g t o g o v i a t h e company secretary to Board members. Yo u s a i d th e o n ly t h i n g y o u ’ d c h a n g e in i t is t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n p a r t w h e r e i t s a y s r e c o m m e n d e d o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : C h a ir, I w a s m o r e s a y i n g t h e te m p l a te s g o i n g 10 f o r w a r d k n o w i n g w h a t I k n o w t o d a y, I w o u l d g iv e m y s e l f a s p a c e w h e r e I s t a te m y v ie w a s th e a u t h o r o f t h e d o c u m e n t w h e r e I s a y a m I r e c o m m e n d i n g i t o r a s t h e a u t h o r w h a t i s my v ie w. B e c a u s e if t h a t ’s t h e c a s e o n t h i s o n e b u t n o t h a v i n g a ll t h e p r e s s u r e s th a t I w a s u n d e r a t t h is c u r r e n t tr a n s a c ti o n , I w o u l d s a y t h e a m o u n t is to o h i g h . I a m n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i th it . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l , I’ m n o t s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d th a t . That s u g g e s t t o m e t h a t y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t t h is t e m p la t e d i d n o t g i v e y o u r o o m to s a y y o u a r e n o t r e c o m m e n d i n g i f i n f a c t y o u a r e n o t recommending. 20 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir, i t w a s n o t g iv i n g r o o m a n d c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y i n s i s t e d t h a t w e d o n ’ t c h a n g e t h e t e m p l a t e s . T h e r e w e r e t w o t e m p l a te s o f S A A t h is o n e a n d t h e o t h e r o n e . So you were n o t s u p p o s e d to t e m p e r w i th t h e t e m p l a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , but th e r e under three where it says r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , o b v i o u s ly y o u m u s t h a v e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e r e y o u Page 256 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 w r i t e w h a t y o u s u p p o r t s h o u l d b e d o n e b y th e B o a r d . r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e , y o u w r i te t h a t . If you say you B u t e q u a l ly i t m u s t b e that if you don’t approve, if you don’t recommend that they approve t h a t ’s w h e r e y o u w r i te t h a t a s w e ll . Wa s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g d i ffe r e n t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir, b e c a u s e I w a s p a r t o f t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s b e c a u s e I h a v e t o ta k e it t o t h e B o a r d a t t h e s u b m i s s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t n o w i f I ’ m s a y i n g t h a t I’ m r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t t h e B o a r d s h o u l d n o t a p p r o v e i t , m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s w h y a m I 10 t a k i n g i t th e r e ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t i f y o u a r e n o t t h e o n e w h o ’s s u p p o s e d t o d e c i d e a r e n ’t y o u p u t ti n g e v e r y t h i n g b e f o r e t h e m ? And then you e x p r e s s in g y o u r v i e w b u t y o u r v i e w is n o t b i n d i n g o n t h e m ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o , I a g r e e C h a ir, h e n c e I a m s a y in g d i ff e r e n t ly i f i t w a s n o t th is k i n d o f tr a n s a c ti o n w h e r e I w a s u n d e r p r e s s u r e , I w a s s c a r e d . I c o u ld n ’ t p u t i t C h a ir e v e n th o u g h I k n e w a t t h e t i m e th a t I w a s w r i t in g t h is t h a t I ’ m n o t in s u p p o r t a n d I’ m n o t g o in g t o s u p p o r t i t. B u t I h a d t o w r i t e th e s u b mi s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t I w o u l d - I t h o u g h t y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s i t 20 y o u a c c e p t t h a t i n t h i s m e m o y o u r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h e B o a r d approves the cancellation fee. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a t’s w h a t I s a i d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e w i th t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I t h o u g h t y o u a g r e e d w i t h t h a t . Page 257 of 266 A n d th e n I 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h o u g h t w h a t y o u m e a n t w a s y o u d i d i n t e n d to r e c o m m e n d th a t t h e y a p p r o v e b u t y o u r i n t e n ti o n to r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e b u t t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e b u t y o u r i n t e n t io n to r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e w a s based on pressure. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u w e r e g e t ti n g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Not because had you’d been given another space to s a y r e c o m m e n d o r n o t r e c o m m e n d y o u w o u l d h a v e s a id n o t r e c o m m e n d 10 w h ic h i s w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u n o w t o b e s a y i n g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : O h n o C h a ir, t h is i t w a s j u s t a n e x a m p l e f o r o th e r t h i n g s to s a y th e l e s s o n t h a t I’ v e l e a r n e d h e r e o n t h e t e m p l a t e . But you are right I was under pressure to recommend. CHAIRPERSON: And when you recommended you knew that you were r e c o m m e n d i n g . Yo u k n e w t h a t i f y o u d i d n ’t w a n t t o r e c o m m e n d i t , y o u w o u ld s a y, I d o n o t r e c o m m e n d i t . ( A u d i o M ic r o p h o n e is o ff) M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t b e c a u s e o f th e ( i n a u d i b l e ) y o u r e c o m m e n d e d . ( Mic r o p h o n e is o ff) 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, s o r r y t o i n t e r r u p t . J u s t y o u r m i c r o p h o n e h a s g o n e o ff , t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s j u s t d o t h a t a g a in s o t h a t i t ’s c a p tu r e d o n t h e tr a n s - o n t h e r e c o r d in g . S o w h e n y o u s i g n e d t h e m e m o y o u k n e w you knew that you were recommending that the Board should approve Page 258 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 t h e c a n c e l a ti o n f e e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t ’s w h a t y o u i n t e n d e d th e m t o k n o w ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But you did so because of pressure. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f th e r e w a s n ’ t p r e s s u r e , w h a t w o u l d y o u h a v e w r i t t e n here? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 I w o u ld h a v e w r i t t e n C h a i r to s a y f o r t h e B o a r d t o c o n s i d e r a n d fo r th e B o a r d t o n o t e th a t I a m n o t c o m f o r ta b le , the amount is too high therefore I’m not recommending the Board to approve it. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w o u l d h a v e s a i d y o u a r e n o t r e c o m m e n d i n g t h e approval? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o h a d a p p li e d t h e p r e s s u r e i n t h e le d u p t o t h e 4 t h o f J u ly ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 T h e C h a ir - I’ m s o r r y. Ms Myeni the C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d M r M o g a d i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d in w h a t f o r m d i d t h e p r e s s u r e c o m e fr o m M s My e n i ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Vi a p h o n e c a l ls , I w o u ld g e t m o r e t h a n t w o o r t h r e e c a l ls a d a y, C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d is t h a t s o o v e r t h e p e r i o d f r o m a b o u t t h e Page 259 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 8 t h o f J u n e w h e r e y o u s i g n th e t e r m s h e e t to t h e s u b m i s s i o n o n th e 4 t h o f J u ly ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t j u s ti f ic a ti o n d i d s h e g iv e y o u f o r i t e a c h ti m e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: E a c h t i m e s h e s a i d th e r e a r e t h e B N P i s n o t m a k i n g p r o fi t . Th e r e w a s a p o in t w h e r e s h e s a i d m a y b e I’ m o f t h e v i e w t h a t B N P is p r o f i ti n g f o r th is . B N P is n o t p r o f it i n g , B N P is t a k i n g t h e c o s t f il t e r i n g t h e c o s t fr o m G r is s a g a n d t h e y c a n ’t i n c u r l o s s e s b e c a u s e 10 t h e y a r e a s s is ti n g a S A E . S o h e s a i d t h o s e a r e t h e d ir e c t c o s t t h a t a r e c o m i n g fr o m G r is s a g A G . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i , w e n o w k n o w fr o m t h e e v id e n c e o f M r v a n d e r M e r w e t h a t t h a t i s f a ls e , c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : We were at the memorandum of incorporation b e c a u s e I w a n t e d to p r o b e w i th y o u w h a t y o u k n e w i n r e l a ti o n to t h i s v o t e r e l a ti v e to w h a t i t w o u ld ta k e to c a r r y i t . And I directed you to p a g e 1 5 2 , t h a t ’s a p a r t o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f i n c o r p o r a t i o n t h a t w a s o p e r a ti v e a t t h e t i m e . 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’l l s e e j u s t a b o v e th e m i d d l e o f th a t p a g e i t d e a ls w i th 1 3 . 11 . 7 a n d i ts s e tt i n g o u t th e r e t h e v o t e s th a t e a c h d ir e c to r w i ll h a v e . It r e a d s th a t e a c h d i r e c t o r s h a ll h a v e o n e v o te o n a m a t te r b e f o r e th e B o a r d a n d s a y f o r o th e r w i s e p r o v id e d i n t h is M O I I a m a j o r it y o f th e v o t e s c a s t o n a r e s o l u ti o n is s u ff ic ie n t to s u p p o r t t o a p p r o v e t h a t Page 260 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 r e s o l u ti o n . D o y o u s e e th a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m y q u e s t io n t o y o u w a s , i t ’s r e l e v a n t h o w m a n y v o t e s a r e c a s t b e c a u s e i t ’s t h e m a j o r it y o f t h e v o t e s c a s t t h a t w il l c a r r y a r e s o l u ti o n . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I s e e t h a t n o w, C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t a t t h e t i m e ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: N o C h a ir, I w a s a w a r e o f t h e fa c t fo r t h e B o a r d r e s o lu t io n t o b e a p p r o v e d o r t o g o a h e a d , w e h a v e t o g e t th e 10 m a jo r i ty a n d th e m a jo r i ty w o u ld b e 5 0 p l u s 1 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o o u t o f a B o a r d o f f iv e i t w o u l d b e t h r e e , correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir, y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u n o w s e e t h a t w a s r e le v a n t w a s h o w many votes were cast, correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f o n ly t h r e e p e o p l e v o t e fo r e x a m p l e th e r e s o l u ti o n w il l b e a p p r o v e d if o n l y t w o o f t h o s e th r e e a p p r o v e i t , correct? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t, t h a t ’s t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d id n ’t s e e k c l a r i ty a s t o t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t th e B o a r d m e m b e r s w o u l d t a k e o n w h e th e r th e y ’ d a b s t a i n o r v o t e , correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o , I s a i d th e s e n s e t h a t I g o t w a s fr o m M s Ya k h e . S o i n m y c a lc u la t io n I w a s l ik e m e , i t ’s Mr Zw a n e a n d Ya k h e . Page 261 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 S o e v e n i f D r T h a m b i g o e s t h e o t h e r w a y, i t w il l n o t g o a h e a d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s i t h a p p e n e d y o u d id n ’t v o t e t h o u g h , d i d y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A t t h e t i m e I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t t o a b s t a i n in g d o e s n o t c o u n t, C h a ir. ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: But you d id not vote against this r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o t h e B o a r d , d i d y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o , I d i d n o t I a b s t a i n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . A n d D r T h a m b i a b s t a i n e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u m a d e a c o r r e c ti o n t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u s a id t h a t M s K w i n a n a v o te d a g a in s t i t b u t y o u w a n t e d t o c h a n g e i t t o t h e f a c t t h a t s h e a b s t a in e d . Is that correct? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t, i t w a s a ty p o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e i t s h e d id a c t u a l ly v o t e a g a i n s t i t . I c a n t a k e y o u to t h a t r e s o l u ti o n if i t ’s n e c e s s a r y. B u t b e c a u s e s h e v o t e d a g a in s t i t a n d b e c a u s e M r Z w a n e v o t e d a g a i n s t i t , M s M y e n i’s v o te d id n o t c a r r y t h e d a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 20 through th e in t e r n a l C h a ir, I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t a ll a lo n g e v e n d is c i p l i n a r y hearings, I th in k th e company s e c r e t a r y s a id s h e a b s t a i n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’l l fi n d y o u th e r e s o l u ti o n , w e d o h a v e it i n t h e w e ll , h e r v o t e o n i t . B u t t h e fo r c e o f t h e p o i n t M s N h a n ts i is t h a t i t ’s o n ly b e c a u s e M r Z w a n e a n d M s K w i n a n a v o te d a g a in s t i t th a t it d id n o t c a r r y. Yo u a c c e p t th a t ? Page 262 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d i d n ’ t t a k e a s te p t o v o t e a g a i n s t i t yourself? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir, a s I’ m s a y in g a t t h e p o i n t in t i m e I c a l c u l a te d , m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t t h e t i m e w a s w e a r e fi v e B o a r d m e m b e r s a n d i f t h r e e v o t e a g a i n s t it d o e s n ’t g o a h e a d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l , y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e g u a r a n te e s a s t o t h e o th e r v o t e s , d id y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d i d n o t g u a r a n t e e s b u t I g o t a s e n s e fo r M s 10 K w in a n a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y n o t ju s t v o t e a g a in s t it M s N h a n ts i because then you would have had a definite one vote against. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s c h a ir, th is is th e m is t a k e t h a t I m a d e C h a ir. A s I’ m s a y i n g a t c h a n c e s I w e r e v e r y b u s y b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e o th e r t h i n g s th a t w a s k e e p in g m e a w a k e a t n i g h t w a s t h e li q u i d it y c r is i s a t S A A w h e r e I h a d t o h a v e e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e s u p p l ie r s a n d n e g o ti a te w i t h t h e s u p p l ie r s b e c a u s e w e d i d n ’ t h a v e e n o u g h m o n e y t o p a y th e m a n d a l l th a t . S o I ’ m s u r e in t h a t p r o c e s s a n d i n th a t c r a z i n e s s if y o u a ll o w m e to s a y s o , I t h e n f o r g o t t o v o te . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t o v o te a g a in s t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: To v o t e a g a i n s t , C h a ir. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t d id y o u fo r g e t w i th th e a p p r e c ia t io n th a t v o ti n g a g a in s t a t th a t p a r ti c u la r s i g n i fic a n c e c o m p a r e d to a b s t a in i n g o r a r e y o u s i m p ly s a y i n g y o u d id n ’ t a p p r e c ia t e w h a t e v e r d is ti n c t io n t h e r e m i g h t b e in t e r m s o f t h e e ffe c t o f a b s t a in in g a n d v o t i n g a g a in s t ? Page 263 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n f a c t s ir, t o b e h o n e s t I t h o u g h a b s t a in in g a n d v o ti n g a g a i n s t i s t h e s a m e w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d a m o u n t t o th e s a m e t h in g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i , l e t m e j u s t g iv e y o u t h e r e c o r d o f M s K w i n a n a ’s d e c i s i o n . Yo u ’l l fi n d i t i n M s S ti m p l e ’s b u n d l e B , s o i t ’s DD1B. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u ’ ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 5 6 0 . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I’ m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’l l s e e i t ’s a n e m a il fr o m M s K w i n a n a t o a m o n g s t o th e r s t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d i n c l u d i n g y o u r s e lf a n d i t r e a d s , d e a r M a d u ( ? ) , th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n in c l u d e d a s p a r t o f t h e b i d . S o r r y, s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d a s p a r t o f t h e b i d a n d t h e a m o u n t b e i n g i n c lu d e d a s o n e o f t h e fa c to r s to c o n s i d e r in g e v a l u a t io n a n d a d j u d i c a t io n a n d b e c o m p a r e d w i t h a l l o t h e r b i d s w h ic h m a y w i th t h is in c l u s io n b e c h e a p e r. I n v i e w o f t h is I d o n o t s u p p o r t t h is r o u n d - r o b i n . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I s e e i t C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e h e r r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o m p a r is o n w i th t h e o th e r b id s is o f c o u r s e n o t correct, is it? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r b e c a u s e . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e w e r e n o o t h e r b i d s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , t h is w a s c o n fi n e m e n t . Page 264 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o b a c k o n e p a g e t o 5 5 9 , y o u s e e M s M y e n i’s a p p r o v a l th e r e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: Again, g iv in g some credence to your a s s u m p t io n s a b o u t th e d r o p i n t h e c a n c e l a ti o n fe e a m o u n t b e c a u s e M s M y e n i’s e m a i l r e a d s , d e a r M a d u , d o e s th is n e e d B o a r d a p p r o v a l? I f s o , I approve it. Regards. Do you accept that she is querying whether B o a r d a p p r o v a l is r e q u ir e a t a ll f o r a c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e o f le s s t h a n 5 0 m il li o n ? 10 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir, a n d a s i s a i d I’ m n o t s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e i m m e d ia t e l y a ft e r i t w e n t t h r o u g h th e r o u n d - r o b in , s h e c a ll e d m e t o s a y w h y is th is g o i n g t o t h e B o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a m a t t e r o f i n t e r e s t I s e e th a t in t h a t e m a i l a t 5 5 9 , u n d e r h e r n a m e i s w r i tt e n E x e c u tiv e C h a ir p e r s o n . Was she an E x e c u t iv e C h a ir p e r s o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t t o m y k n o w l e d g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t s h e w a s n o n E x e c u tiv e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e w a s n o n Ex e c u tiv e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S h e w a s n o n a c t u a ll y, n o t t o my k n o w l e d g e . 20 S h e w a s n o n E x e c u t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: O h , b u t i t ’s w r i t t e n E x e c u ti v e C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e . Okay alright. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, w e a r e a t 6 o ’ c l o c k , I o n ly h a v e t w o f u r th e r to p ic s b u t t h e y d o tr a v e r s e s o m e o f th e l a s t a s p e c ts o f M s N h a n ts i ’s s t a t e m e n t . P a r t ic u l a r o t h e r d e a li n g s i n h e r t i m e w i th M s Page 265 of 266 18 JUNE 2019 – DAY 114 M y e n i a n d t h e n s o m e fi n a l c o n c l u d i n g r e m a r k s t h a t I r e q u ir e M s N h a n ts i ’s c o m m e n t o n . My s u g g e s ti o n is th a t w e t a k e th a t u p b r i e fl y tomorrow morning. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I t h i n k w e s h o u ld a d j o u r n n o w. I think I may h a v e m a d e y o u b e l i e v e t h a t w e c o u l d s t a r t e a r ly t h i s w e e k b u t I h a v e r e a s o n t o s a y to m o r r o w le t ’s s t a r t a t t h e n o r m a l t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w m u c h m o r e ti m e d o y o u th i n k w e n e e d w i t h her? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o m o r e th a n h a l f a n h o u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o m o r e t h a n h a lf a n h o u r. N o , t h a t ’s f in e . W i ll y o u b e a b l e t o c o m e b a c k to m o r r o w, M s N h a n t s i? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir, d e fi n i t e ly. W h a t t i m e i s th e n o r m a l ti m e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s 1 0 o ’c l o c k . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. W e a r e g o i n g to a d j o u r n fo r t h e d a y a n d w e ’l l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . W e a d jo u r n . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 9 J U N E 2 0 1 9 20 Page 266 of 266