C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

18 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 6 6

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 18 SEPT EMBER 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

m o r n in g

Ms

S e p t e m b e r,

good

m o r n in g

e v e r y b o d y,
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s w e a r e C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d C h a ir t h e r e i s

o n e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e w h o b y y o u r le a v e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W o u ld li k e t o p l a c e h i m s e l f o n

record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI: Morning Judge.
CHAIRPERSON: Morning, morning.
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI:

M y n a m e is K g a u g e l o B a lo y i I c o m e fr o m

K g a u g e l o B a lo y i A t to r n e y s i n Pr e to r i a . J u d g e I a m c o m i n g o n r e c o r d f o r
G e n e r a l M p h e g o . J u d g e m y i n s tr u c ti o n s a t t h is s t a g e t h a t t h e r e is a n
a ffi d a v i t th a t is g o in g t o b e f il e d b u t f o r n o w J u d g e w e r e s e r v e o u r
20

r ig h ts J u d g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI:

Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

G o o d m o r n i n g M r R o e l o fs e .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.

Page 2 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Are you ready?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c e e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir y e s t e r d a y w e e n d e d o n p a g e

3 0 o f t h e a ff i d a v i t w h ic h is in b u n d l e K K 2 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t i t th a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u s t t o c o n t e x t u a l is e M r R o e lo fs e I

a s k t h a t y o u p le a s e lo o k a t E x h i b it K K 2 . 3 a n i n p a r ti c u l a r d i a g r a m 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t d o e s n o t l o o k li k e I h a v e g o t th e d i a g r a m s – t h e

d i a g r a m f il e h e r e . Th a t – t h a t c a n n o t b e y o u r f a u l t. I th in k w e w i ll j u s t
h a v e to a d j o u r n a n d le t th e m c h e c k .

I t i s d i a g r a m – I th i n k y o u s a i d

d i a g r a m f i le a n d t h e o th e r o n e . O h h a v e y o u g o t a s p a r e o n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e d o h a v e a s p a r e o n e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J u s t r e m e m b e r t o c h e c k w it h th e m d u r i n g t h e
break. Okay thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So diagram 2 of Exhibit KK2.3. Mr

R o e lo fs e is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h i s d i a g r a m t a lk s t o p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t
y o u p r o v i d e d y e s t e r d a y i n t h a t t h e f ir s t i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t y o u w e r e
in v o lv e d i n f o r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r e v id e n c e c o n c e r n e d t h e R ic h a r d –
20

G e n e r a l R ic h a r d M d lu li Vo s l o o r u s c a s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d t h a t w a s a n in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t

y o u l e d w h ic h r e s u lt e d in c e r ta in m e m b e r s fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d
t h e p o l ic e t o a p p r o a c h y o u t o p r o v id e y o u w i t h in f o r m a t io n r e la t iv e t o
t h e a b u s e o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t a n d t h e fu n d s i n t h o s e

Page 3 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
accounts?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i s it a l s o c o r r e c t t h a t o ff t h e

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m a c e r ta i n M r – c e r ta in C o l o n e l
N a i d o o t h e – t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t h a v e b e e n o u tl i n e d i n d i a g r a m 2
n o t d ia g r a m 1 . Th e e le v e n in v e s ti g a t io n s t h e r e a r e b u t s o m e o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n b u t t h e s e a r e th e e l e v e n
in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t y o u p la c e b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And then to take us to page 30 of –

w h ic h t a k e s u s t o p a g e 3 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it y o u n o w d e a l w i t h
in v e s t i g a t io n n u m b e r 5 a n d y o u h a v e t i tl e d t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b u s e
o f S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t p u r c h a s i n g o f v e h ic le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t lo o k s …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

We at paragraph 94.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t lo o k s li k e 4 . I s t h a t n o t r o m a n f i g u r e i v ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

It is a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 3 0 C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u a r e a t th e b o t t o m . I th o u g h t y o u w e r e – o k a y,
a lr i g h t .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s w e h a v e

c o m p le t e d t h e p r e v i o u s i n v e s ti g a t i o n y e s t e r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay – oh that is the abuse of the safe house?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

U n le s s y o u w is h u s t o a d d r e s s a n y

…
CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

Page 4 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n y o t h e r a s p e c t in r e l a ti o n to .

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t is fi n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e h o w d i d i t c o m e

a b o u t t h a t y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d o f a ll e g a t io n s i n t h e – i n r e la t io n t o t h i s
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir o n c e a g a in i t w a s – I w a s

in f o r m e d b y C o l o n e l N a i d o o r e g a r d i n g c e r ta i n a l le g a ti o n s a n d t h e n
b a s e d o n t h a t I t r i e d t o f o ll o w u p t o e i t h e r c o r r o b o r a t e – t o p r o v e – I
mean to corroborate what he said to me. And then …
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t d i d C o lo n e l N a i d o o i n fo r m

you?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Well he…

W h ic h r e s u l t e d in t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o in f o r m e d m e i n

b r o a d te r ms t h a t v e h ic l e s e s p e c ia lly l u x u r y v e h ic l e s w e r e u s e d t o – a n d
I w i ll u s e

th e

word

in f lu e n c e v e r y

b r o a d ly

to

in f lu e n c e

senior

management to pose no obstacle when it comes to what General
Lazarus as part of his agenda.

I n o t h e r w o r d s a s I s a id y e s te r d a y

t h e s e a r e m e t h o d s t h a t w a s e m p l o y e d t o p u t p e o p l e in a – i n a d i ffi c u l t
20

s i tu a ti o n – in a c o m p r o m is i n g p o s i ti o n a n d t h e n b a s e d o n t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b a s ic a lly t h e y w e r e b e i n g m a y b e i n d ir e c tl y m a y b e
d ir e c t ly b r i b e d s o t h a t th e y w o u ld n o t s a y a n y t h i n g a g a i n s t G e n e r a l
Lazarus.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

The

p r o b le m w i t h t h e – t h e p r o b l e m w i th t h e – th a t is h o w i t s t a r te d . T h e

Page 5 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
u n f o r t u n a t e p a r t is i t d id n o t s t o p t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

When – at that point when that

in d i v i d u a l a r e c o m p r is e d h e is n o t in a p o s i ti o n t o a c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o t h e n th is i s b a s ic a l ly w h a t –

w h a t I a m r e f e r r in g t o w h e n w e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e v e h ic l e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
10

A n d w h e n is i t t h a t y o u d i s c o v e r e d

t h is i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s u s i n g f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t to p r o c u r e v e h ic l e s f o r s e n i o r m a n a g e r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n in t h e

ti m e f r a m e w h e n I s p o k e to C o lo n e l N a id o o s o i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a f t e r
t h e 2 0 t h o r o n o r a b o u t t h e 2 0 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n ta k e y o u t o p a g e 3 1 o f y o u r

a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t b e fo r e t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 9 4 t h e s e n i o r p o l ic e a n d
o th e r g o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a l s r e f e r r e d to i n p a r a g r a p h 9 4 w o u ld t h e y h a v e
been senior to him
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

To G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir t h e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n .

S o t h a t w o u ld – I t a k e it t h a t s in c e a s I u n d e r s ta n d

t h e p o s i t io n o n ly G e n e r a l M d l u d l u w a s s e n i o r to h i m .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I n te r m s o f C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .

Page 6 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct about that?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct about that?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Ye s . I f w e t a lk a b o u t C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . S o i t m e a n s t h a t i f t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s
s e n i o r t o h i m t h e y f e ll o u ts i d e – s o m e o f th e m f e ll o u ts id e C r i m e
10

I n t e lli g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a i is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h e tr ie d t o i n f l u e n c e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t m a y b e I

s h o u l d ju s t c o r r e c t m y s e l f . T h e r e – t h e s e n i o r w a s G e n e r a l M d lu d lu th e
o th e r G e n e r a l s w e r e o n a M a j o r - G e n e r a l l e v e l .

S o in th a t s e n s e t h e y

w e r e o n t h e s a m e l e v e l b u t h e h e l d t h e p o s i t io n w i t h i n t h e S S A a s t h e
Fi n a n c i a l – th e C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ffi c e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

So he might be on the same level

in t e r m s o f s e n i o r it y w i t h th e o t h e r m e m b e r s a t C I w h o w a s a ls o
G e n e r a ls .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o – s o – b u t a l l o f th e m t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g

a b o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 9 4 w e r e p e o p le w h o w e r e – h e h a d i n C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e n o t a n y b o d y o u ts id e o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a s f a r a s I c a n r e m e m b e r

Page 7 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h e r e a r e p e o p le o u t s i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O u ts id e C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w h o

a ls o r e c e i v e d a v e h ic l e y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . N o I j u s t – w e c a n d e a l w i th t h e m la t e r.
I j u s t w a n t e d t o h a v e a n i d e a w h e t h e r i t w a s c o n f i n e d to C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e o r it w e n t b e y o n d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o i t w e n t b e y o n d C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a g e 3 1 y o u t a lk a b o u t a

d is c o v e r y th a t y o u h a d i n M a y 2 0 11 .

Pl e a s e c l a r if y w h a t t h a t r e l a te s

to?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair this is – when I –when I am

r e fe r r i n g to t h is I a m r e fe r r i n g t o t h e o th e r m e m b e r s t h a t c a m e f o r w a r d .
N o t C o l o n e l N a id o o . S o w h a t I a m t r y in g t o c o n v e y h e r e th is is w h e n
m e m b e r s c a m e fo r w a r d a n d m a d e a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t v e h ic l e s w e r e u s e d i n
t h is fa s h i o n b u t w i th o u t a n y s p e c i fi c d e t a il w h i c h I c o u ld fo ll o w u p . S o
t h a t – it b e c a m e k n o w n t o m e a t t h a t ti m e b u t t h e m e a t o f t h e
in f o r m a ti o n – th e m o r e a c c u r a t e i n f o r m a ti o n c a m e fr o m N a i d o o a f te r I
20

s p o k e t o h i m a f t e r h e w a s – a f t e r O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u t h e n ta lk s p e c i fi c a ll y t o a

m o n e t a r y t h r e s h o l d th a t w a s p e r m i t t e d f o r u s e i n o b t a i n i n g a v e h ic l e
a n d y o u d o s o w i t h s p e c i fic r e g a r d t o s e n i o r m a n a g e r s . C a n y o u p l e a s e
e l a b o r a t e o n th is a l le g a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h is a ll e g a ti o n – w h i l e I w a s

Page 8 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t a lk in g to G e n e r a l H a n k e l a t th e t i m e w h e n h e w a s t h e i n t e r m e d ia r y.
H e i n f o r m e d m e a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r if it w a s – i f h e w a s s p e c i f ic t o
t h a t ti m e f r a m e o r w a s i t a l i t tl e b i t l a te r – a f t e r – a t t h e t i m e w h e n I
t o o k h is a ffi d a v it .

H e r e f e r r e d m e t o a c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t h e h a d w i th

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h o p h o n e d h i m a n d t o l d h i m t h a t h e i s e n ti t le d t o a
v e h ic l e

fr o m

the

SSA

account

to

the

v a lu e

of

a p p r o x i m a te ly

R 5 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . H e s a i d n o I d o n o t w a n t a v e h ic l e I d o h a v e m y v e h ic le
w h ic h is in o u r t e r m s ; S A P S t e r m s w e ta lk a b o u t a S M S v e h ic l e ; s e n i o r
m a n a g e m e n t v e h ic le s f o r w h ic h t h e y g e t a s u b s i d y.
10

H e s a id h e d o e s

not want – he does not need one, he does not want one. He then – he
t h e n r e l a y e d t o m e t h a t h e t h e n a f t e r t h a t h e r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m
General Mdluli.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I m is s e d – w h o w a s s a y i n g h e d i d n o t w a n t
it ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

General Hankel.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e w a s r e l a y in g th e s t o r y t o m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

O k a y. T h e n …

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e g o t a c a l l fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

M d lu li c o n f ir m in g w h a t G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s ’ h a s s a i d t h a t y o u a r e e n t i tl e d t o t h is v e h ic l e . A n d h e a g a in
r e fu s e d h e s a i d I d o n o t w a n t t h e v e h i c l e . S o – a n d – w e a r e a w a r e o r I
a m a w a r e o f t h e fa c t t h a t s e n i o r m a n a g e r s d id i n fa c t d r iv e w it h s t a t e
v e h ic l e s f r o m t h e S S A a c c o u n t c o n tr a r y t o t h e S M S p a c k a g i n g b e c a u s e

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h e y a lr e a d y g o t t h a t . T h e y a lr e a d y h a v e t h a t a d v a n t a g e t h a t f i n a n c i a l
advantage.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And your awareness of these

p a r t ic u l a r in d iv i d u a ls t h a t y o u r e fe r t o a r e t h o s e t h e i n d iv id u a ls t h a t y o u
w i ll n o w t a lk t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s s o m e o f t h e m y e s C h a ir.

W h o w a s t h e fir s t i n d i v i d u a l th a t w a s

d is c o v e r e d i n y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a ir d u r in g m y i n v e s ti g a t i o n I

d is c o v e r e d th a t t h e f o l lo w in g v e h ic le s a s I m e n t io n e d in p a r a g r a p h 9 5
w e r e i n – w e r e b o u g h t th r o u g h t h e S S A a c c o u n t f o r t h e u s e o f G e n e r a l
M d lu li a n d h i s o ff ic e .

A n d w h e n I s a y h i s o ffi c e I u s e th a t te r m a ls o

lo o s e l y b e c a u s e i t w a s u s e d b y h i m . A n d i n th a t r e g a r d w e w e r e a b le t o
id e n t i fy a M e r c e d e s B e n z E C l a s s S e d a n .

A Mercedes Benz 300 –

350CDI. BMW 350D Sedan. A Mercedes Benz …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

5 3 0 to c o r r e c t y o u .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So it is a BMW 540D Sedan.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Thank you.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
Lexus.

Sorry?

A Mercedes Benz ML350 and a

T h e t o t a l v a l u e o f th o s e v e h ic l e s a m o u n t s t o m o r e t h a n R 3

m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

R 3 .1 5 3 7 3 0 . 0 0 .

Page 10 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e – t h o s e a m o u n ts a r e f o r n e w h e y f o r a s t h e y w e r e
w h e n th e y w e r e b o u g h t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A n d n o w t h i s i s a b o u t w h a t f iv e v e h ic l e s ,
t h is i s fi v e v e h ic l e s . W o u l d t h a t b e s e p a r a te fr o m h is S M S v e h i c l e a s
y o u p u t i t o r t h is w o u l d i n c lu d e h is S M S v e h ic l e ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Th a t i s s e p a r a t e f r o m h i s S M S

v e h ic l e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Yo u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h a t I t e s ti f ie d

t h a t h e s o ld h i s S M S v e h ic le a s p a r t o f t h e tr a d e i n d e a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h is is s e p a r a t e fr o m th a t .

B u t n o w d i d y o u e s t a b li s h w h e th e r h e h a d a l l t h e s e

fi v e v e h ic le s a v a il a b l e t o h i m a t t h e s a m e ti m e o r w h e t h e r h e u s e d o n e
– h e h a d o n e a v a il a b l e t o h i m f o r a y e a r a n d t h e n b r o u g h t a n o t h e r o n e
a n d g a v e t h a t o n e t o s o m e b o d y e ls e o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h a t i s c o r r e c t .

He used

t h e s e v e h i c l e s o v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o h e w o u ld n o t n e c e s s a r il y h a v e

t w o o r th r e e o f t h e – o f t h e s e v e h i c l e s i n h is p o s s e s s i o n a t t h e s a m e
ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It w o u l d h a v e b e e n u s e d a n d t h e n

Page 11 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
g iv e n b a c k t o a m e m b e r o f C I t o b e u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

F o r – t o b e u t il is e d f u r t h e r y e s

that is what happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . D o h a v e a n y r e c o l le c t io n o f w h a t t h e m in i m u m

p e r i o d w a s w h e n a n y o n e o f th e s e v e h i c l e s w e r e u s e d b y h i m b e f o r e i t
w a s g iv e n a w a y t o s o m e b o d y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d o n o t h a v e t h a t d e t a i l

w i t h m e b u t i t w o u ld b e p a r t o f t h e – o f th e c a s e d o c k e t w h ic h w e
10

in v e s t i g a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

B e c a u s e I h a v e th e a c t u a l

d o c u m e n ts t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w e a r e n o t ta lk in g a b o u t li k e a w e e k , a m o n t h
w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t q u it e a lo n g – m u c h l o n g e r t i m e o r y o u a r e n o t
sure?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t d e p e n d s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

A n d i n r e s p e c t o f e a c h v e h ic le .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W h e r e s o m e o f t h e m w e r e l o n g e r,

s o m e w i ll b e a b i t s h o r t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B u t I m i g h t – w h a t I c a n in f o r m

t h e C h a ir i s t h a t in r e s p e c t o f t h e L e x u s v e h ic l e .

Page 12 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t I w il l s p e a k la t e r

o n a b o u t a – p r iv a t e p r o p e r ti e s l e a s e d f o r p r i v a t e u s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o w w h e n w e d id t h e s e a r c h a n d

s e i z u r e a t o n e o f th o s e p r o p e r ti e s I f o u n d t h e L e x u s v e h i c l e i n t h e
g a r a g e . T h e v e h ic l e w a s u s e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i. I t w a s p a r k e d t h e r e
in – a t t h e ti m e w h e n h e g o t a r r e s t e d . I t w a s l e f t t h e r e f o r m o r e t h a n
s e v e n – i t w a s l e ft th e r e f r o m A p r il 2 0 11 u n til N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 w h e r e th e
10

car was not used. It was just left in the garage. So …
CHAIRPERSON: Was he – was he on suspension during that time?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

He was on suspension during that

ti m e j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d i t is th is C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e

v e h ic l e t h a t – th e v e h ic l e is n o t b e i n g u ti li s e d . I t w a s b o u g h t f o r h is –
f o r h is u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

S o t h a t is a n d th e o t h e r i n s t a n c e

w h e n w e s e a r c h – w h e n w e lo o k e d f o r M r M d l u l i p r i o r t o h is a r r e s t w e
a ls o f o u n d a M e r c e d e s B e n z E - C l a s s M e r c e d e s a t h is p r e – a t h is
p r o p e r ty w h ic h i s t h e t o p o n e t h a t I a m r e f e r r in g to . T h e v e h i c l e a t t h a t
ti m e w a s n o t e v e n r e g is te r e d . T h a t is h o w n e w i t w a s . S o i t w a s o v e r a
p e r i o d o f ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m e h e u s e d f o r l o n g e r t i m e s th a n o t h e r s .
D o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c ti o n w h e t h e r th e r e c o u l d

Page 13 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
h a v e b e e n t i m e s w h e n th e r e i s a n o v e r la p ? In o th e r w o r d s a n e w o n e
comes but an old one stays for some time before it is…
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a s f a r a s I c a n r e m e m b e r

t h e r e w e r e o v e r la p s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

M r M d l u l i a f t e r h is m a r r i a g e h e

u s e d t o g o t o C a p e To w n q u i t e a lo t . S o h e h a d a v e h ic l e t h e r e fo r h is
u s e a s w e l l a s a v e h i c l e i n G a u t e n g fo r h is u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Mr R o e lo fs e y o u m e n t i o n e d t h a t

t h e s e v e h ic le w e r e t h e o u tc o m e o f a n in v e s ti g a ti o n th a t y o u c o n d u c t e d
in d e p e n d e n tly. Is th a t to b e u n d e r s to o d c o r r e c t ly ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is – t h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
A n d t h e s e f iv e v e h ic le s o v e r w h a t

p e r i o d w a s – d id y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n c o v e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h is c o v e r e d t h e p e r io d

b e t w e e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s s u s p e n s io n w h ic h h a p p e n e d o n – w h ic h
h a p p e n e d o n th e d a y o f h i s a r r e s t w h i c h w a s th e 3 0 t h M a r c h i f I a m n o t
m is t a k e n a n d – 2 0 11 a n d – a n d – i n o t h e r w o r d s f r o m h is a p p o in t m e n t
20

in J u ly 2 0 0 9 u p u n ti l th e ti m e t h a t h e w a s s u s p e n d e d . T h e c a r t h a t I a m
r e fe r r i n g t o t h a t w e f o u n d i n t h e g a r a g e w a s o b v i o u s ly o n ly fo u n d
a ft e r w a r d s a t s ix o v e r s e v e n m o n t h s a f t e r w a r d s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is t h a t t h e n t h e p e r i o d r e f e r r e d t o in

p a r a g r a p h 9 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t w h ic h is 0 1 J u ly 2 0 0 9 u n t il 3 1 M a r c h
2 0 11 ?

Page 14 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d y o u r d is c o v e r y o f t h e L e x u s w a s

t h e n o u ts i d e t h a t ti m e p e r i o d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a t h e v e h ic l e w a s b o u g h t w i th in

t h a t p e r i o d b u t t h e d is c o v e r y w a s o u ts i d e t h e t i m e p e r io d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u t h e n d e a l w i th a n o th e r p o l ic e

m e m b e r w h o a l s o b e n e f it t e d f r o m v e h ic le s th a t w a s p u r c h a s e d t h r o u g h
t h e u s e o f s t a te f u n d s b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s Ac c o u n t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Can you please address this

in d i v i d u a l i n s o fa r a s y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n c o n c e r n e d t h is g e n e r a l .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t t h is

v e h ic l e .

T h is w a s – t h i s w a s i n f o r m a t i o n g iv e n t o m e b y C o l o n e l

Naidoo.

It was a Q5 Audi that was bought through the SSA funds for

t h e u s e o f G e n e r a l M o n o k o M p s h e I a s I – i n th e a m o u n t o f
R 5 5 7 0 7 9 .9 6 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t p o s i t io n d i d th is G e n e r a l h o l d ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t th e ti m e s h e w a s t h e D i v i s i o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r i n te r ms o f H u m a n R e s o u r c e s i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n a n d i n
20

t h a t r e g a r d s h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n o r s h e w o u l d h a v e p l a y e d a r o l e in th e
2 5 0 a p p o i n t m e n t p r o c e s s w i th i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e b e c a u s e o f h e r
p o s i ti o n a s t h e – a s t h e – a s a g e n e r a l in c h a r g e o f p e r s o n n e l .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th a t t h e 2 5 0 r e c r u it m e n t d r i v e y o u

a l lu d e d y e s t e r d a y t h a t o c c u r r e d d u r i n g 2 0 – t h e y e a r o f 2 0 1 0 f o r C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e i n p a r ti c u l a r ?

Page 15 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
p o s i ti o n

within

Crime

S o d i d th is G e n e r a l h o l d a n y

I n t e ll i g e n c e ?

Or

how

e x a c t ly

w o u ld

her

in v o lv e m e n t h a v e b e e n a s t h e H e a d o f H R in t h a t p r o c e s s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d s h e

d i d n o t h o ld t h e p o s i t io n w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e b u t s h e d o e s p l a y a
r o l e i n – w i th t h e – d e c i d i n g h o w m a n y p o s ts – h o w m a n y p o s t s w ill b e
a v a i la b le ?

H o w m u c h m o n e y th e b u d g e t in t e r m s o f t h a t ?

So she

w o u ld h a v e p l a y e d a r o l e i n t e r m s o f t h a t a n d t h a t is w h e r e h e r e r o le
10

b e c o m e s i m p o r t a n t a n d h e r b u y i n i n to t h is p r o c e s s b e c o m e s i m p o r t a n t .
W i th o u t t h a t t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a b l e t o – to p u s h th e s e t h in g s
through.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t w o u ld t h i s G e n e r a l n o t b e

e n t i tl e d t o r e c e iv e a v e h ic l e p u r c h a s e d th r o u g h t h e S S A ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir n o s h e w o u ld n o t b e

e n t i tl e d . I n f a c t s h e a l r e a d y h a d – b e c a u s e o f h e r p o s i ti o n s h e h a d a
S M S v e h i c l e to w h i c h s h e w a s e n ti t le d . S h e h a d f u r t h e r h a d – t o t h a t
s h e h a d a n o ffi c i a l v e h ic l e a n d th a t a ll o w h e r n o t o n l y t o h a v e t h e
v e h ic l e b u t a ls o a d r i v e r t h a t is a t ta c h e d t o t h a t v e h ic le .
20

S o in h e r

p o s i ti o n s h e a lr e a d y g o t t h o s e k in d o f – t h a t is p a r t o f h e r – t h e p o s t
t h a t s h e w a s o c c u p y i n g a t t h e ti m e i t c a m e w i t h th a t p o s t.
a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d th o s e b e n e fi ts .

So she

S h e is n o t e n t i tl e d to t h i s v e h ic le .

S h e is n o t d o i n g C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e b u s in e s s . S h e is n o t d o i n g o ff ic i a l
– a n o ff ic ia l fu n c t io n o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w h a t e x a c t ly w e r e y o u a b l e t o

Page 16 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
in d e p e n d e n tly v e r i fy t h r o u g h y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s f r o m t h e a l l e g a ti o n s
t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m C o l o n e l N a id o o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I n r e s p e c t o f t h is s p e c i f ic

v e h ic l e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Correct.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w a s a b l e to o b ta in t h e

a c t u a l m o ti v a t i o n f o r t h e v e h ic l e th is [ i n d i s t in c t ] – t h is s p e c if ic v e h ic l e
a n d I w o u l d l ik e to q u o t e fr o m t h e m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h a ll o w e d t h e m t o
buy the vehicle.
10

T h i s is n o w a m e m o r a n d u m f r o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e

a p p ly i n g o r m o t iv a ti n g f o r th is s p e c if ic v e h i c le . I t s a y s t h e f o l lo w in g ”
“ T h e r e a r e ti m e s – t h e r e a r e t i m e v e h i c l e s a r e b e i n g
procured

for

a p p lic a ti o n s .

various

o p e r a ti o n s

but

without

R e a s o n b e i n g th a t t h e s e v e h ic le s a r e

b e i n g u s e d i n h i g h ly s e n s i ti v e o p e r a ti o n s . Th e s e
v e h ic l e s a r e u ti lis e d b y a g e n ts . T h is h a p p e n s d u r in g
t h e c o u r s e o f t h e y e a r w h e n th e n e e d a r is e s . ”
T h a t c le a r ly h a s g o t a b s o l u te ly n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h G e n e r a l M p s h e . A s I
– a s I s t a te d r i g h t n o w G e n e r a l M p s h e w a s n e v e r a m e m b e r o f C I. S h e
w a s n e v e r i n th e a g e n t p r o g r a m a s fa r a s I k n o w a n d s h e n e v e r
20

u n d e r t o o k h ig h ly s e n s i t iv e o p e r a ti o n s w i t h i n C I .

S o i n r e s p e c t o f th e

a p p lic a ti o n o r t h e m o t iv a ti o n th e r e is a lr e a d y a m is r e p r e s e n t a t i o n m a d e
t o t h e s t a t e i n r e g a r d s t o t h e – to th e – to b u y i n g – t o t h e b u y i n g o f th is
v e h ic l e .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

Was

there

any

other

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e t h a t y o u w e r e – t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f

Page 17 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
in r e l a ti o n t o t h is v e h i c l e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I a m a w a r e o f t h e

f o ll o w i n g m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i t w a s a ls o m a d e . I h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o
s e e C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a t th e o ffi c e o f G e n e r a l H a n k e l . H e m e n ti o n e d to
m e o r h e a c t u a ll y m e n t io n e d t o G e n e r a l H a n k e l – I w a s j u s t p r e s e n t t h a t
t h is s p e c i fi c v e h i c l e is r e g i s t e r e d o n t h e ir S R r e g is te r – th e ir a s s e t
r e g is t e r a s a Q 4 – s o r r y a n A 4 A u d i . A n d t h e r e a s o n h e – h e a d v a n c e d
f o r th a t i s t h a t t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l w i ll p ic k u p t h i s a n o m a ly o f a Q 5
a n d t h a t w i ll r a is e a fl a g fr o m t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l a n d t h e y w i ll a s k –
10

t h e y w i ll a s k q u e s t io n s r e g a r d i n g th e p u r c h a s e o f t h i s v e h i c l e . T h a t i s
w h y i t w a s r e g is te r e d a s a n A 4 w h i c h w o u l d n o t r a i s e t h a t r e d fl a g fr o m
t h e A G ’s o ffic e .

Th e A G i s n o t – d o e s n o t a u d it e a c h a n d e v e r y

tr a n s a c ti o n s o t h e y w o u l d l o o k f o r fl a g s f o r th in g s t h a t s t a n d o u t a n d
t h is w o u ld h a v e b e e n o n e .

S o t h i s w o u ld th e n n e g a t e t h e a u d i ti n g

p r o c e s s o f t h e A u d it o r G e n e r a l .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e r e a n y d is c i p li n a r y s t e p s t a k e n in

r e l a ti o n t o t h is m a t t e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir. G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s

– w a s f o u n d g u il ty a s p a r t o f t h e d i s c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s i n r e s p e c t o f t h is
20

s p e c i f ic m a t t e r. G e n e r a l M p s h e w a s i n fo r m e d th a t a d is c i p l in a r y a c t i o n
w i ll b e t a k e n a g a in s t h e r a n d s h e a f t e r b e i n g i n f o r m e d s h e r e s ig n e d t h e
n e x t d a y. I d o n o t k n o w if a n y t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o C o l o n e l B a r n a r d I a m
n o t – I a m n o t a w a r e w h e t h e r h e w a s c h a r g e d fo r th is i n a d is c ip li n a r y
m a t t e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n w h a t is t h e s t a tu s o f th e

Page 18 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n r e la t io n t o t h i s m a t te r i f a n y ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i s d o n e

b u t I – b u t t h e u n fo r t u n a t e p a r t is I c a n n o t u s e t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n a
c o u r t o f l a w b e c a u s e i t i s n o t d e c la s s i f ie d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If w e c a n t h e n tu r n to p a g e 3 3 o f

y o u r a ff i d a v i t w h e r e y o u s t a r t w i t h t h e n e x t i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u p l a c e
b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n a n d th a t is t it l e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s u s e o f S e c r e t
S e r v ic e s – S S A t o f u n d u p g r a d e s t o p r iv a t e p r e m i s e s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d l i k e y o u d i d i n r e la t io n t o th e

p u r c h a s i n g o f v e h i c l e s w h e r e y o u s p o k e t o p a r tic u la r i n d i v i d u a ls t h a t
y o u d i s c o v e r e d i n y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o to o a r e t h e r e c e r t a i n i n d iv i d u a l s
t h a t y o u – t h a t y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s r e v e a l e d r e g a r d i n g u p g r a d e s t o
p r i v a t e p r e m i s e s , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

If I may

t h is a ls o e m a n a t e s fr o m C o l o n e l N a id o o w h ic h I f o l l o w e d u p a n d i n a n
e ffo r t t o c o r r o b o r a te w h a t h e s a y s . H e i n f o r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i
r e c e i v e d c o m p r e h e n s i v e – r e c e iv e d a c o m p r e h e n s iv e s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e
a t h is p r iv a t e r e s id e n c e .
20

W h e n I w a s a b le t o r e tr i e v e s o m e o f t h o s e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e w h ic h w a s h a n d e d t o m e t h e
value of that upgrade was valued at R190 735.00.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t w a s i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u

v e r i fi e d t h r o u g h y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I h a v e t h e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n s h o w i n g t h is tr a n s a c t io n . U n fo r t u n a t e l y a ls o c l a s s i fi e d .

Page 19 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W a s t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s p r i v a t e

h o m e – o ffic i a l r e s id e n c e p r iv a te h o m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t w a s h is p r iv a t e h o m e w h ic h

is s i t u a t e d i n D a w n P a r k , B o k s b u r g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e n e x t s e c u r i t y u p g r a d e r e l a t e s t o

a p a r t ic u l a r L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l c a n y o u p l e a s e a d d r e s s t h e n e x t
in d i v i d u a l t h a t y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s u n v e i le d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
Monoko Mpshe.
10

C h a ir t h is i s a g a in G e n e r a l

S h e r e c e i v e d a g a in a c c o r d i n g to C o lo n e l N a i d o o s h e

r e c e i v e d a s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e a t h e r p r i v a t e r e s i d e n c e t o th e v a l u e o f
a b o u t R 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . I d id r e q u e s t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s I w a s n o t – I w a s n o t
p r o v i d e d t h e d o c u m e n t s fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e . B u t w e w e r e a b l e t o
id e n t i fy s o m e o f t h e i n d iv i d u a l s , p r i v a t e i n d i v i d u a ls w h o a c t u a lly
in s t a l l e d t h e s e c u r it y u p g r a d e s . S o t h a t is w h y I a m – I a m d e a l in g w i t h
a n a p p r o x i m a t e a m o u n t o f R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 b e c a u s e I c a n n o t c o n f ir m fr o m
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e s id e w h a t th e a c t u a l a m o u n t w a s t h a t w a s p a i d t o th e
s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w e r e y o u th e n a b le t o v e r i fy

whether or not the SSA was used to fund these renovations?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s a b l e t o v e r i fy th a t

a n d th r o u g h t h e p a y m e n ts a n d th e b a n k s t a te m e n ts .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Payments and bank statements of

whom?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O f t h e – o f t h e – o f th e s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r.

Page 20 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e n e x t in d i v i d u a l t h a t y o u r e f e r t o

is a M i n i s t e r w h o r e c e i v e d u p g r a d e s t o p r i v a t e p r e m is e s .

Can you

p l e a s e a d d r e s s th a t p a r t o f y o u r e v id e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir.

A g a i n a c c o r d in g t o -

( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t) s o r r y - a c c o r d in g to C o l o n e l N a i d o o h e i n fo r m e d m e
a b o u t s e c u r i ty r e n o v a t i o n s t h a t h e h a d u n d e r t a k e n o r th a t w a s
u n d e r t a k e n a t a p r iv a t e r e s id e n c e o f t h e th e n M i n i s t e r o f P o l ic e
M r M t h e t h w a in K w a M b o n a m b i i n K w a Zu l u - N a t a l .
T h e r e w a s a r i s k - t h e r e w a s a r is k a s s e s s m e n t d o n e o n
10

3 1 M a y 2 0 1 0 o n t h e p r e m i s e s o n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i.
C o l o n e l N a i d o o s u b m i t te d t h e c l a i m s t o t h e v a l u e o f R 1 9 5 5 8 1 , 4 5 o n
1 4 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d th e n I l is t t h e o t h e r - t h a t i s th e t o ta l a m o u n t .
S o i t w a s th r e e - th r e e p a y m e n ts t o t h e v a l u e o f 1 9 5 5 8 1 ,4 5 .
The

one

was

s u b m i tt e d

on

14 September 2010,

1 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d 3 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 t o t a ll i n g t h a t a m o u n t . G e n e r a l
- C o l o n e l N a id o o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e c la i m s i n t h is r e g a r d .

He

w o u ld p u t in t h e c l a i m a n d h e w o u l d - i n r e s p e c t o f th e w o r k t h a t h a s
been done …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Has your …
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: And I was …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

H a s y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n e s t a b lis h e d

w h e t h e r M in is t e r M t h e t h w a w a s a w a r e o f t h e s o u r c e o f t h e fu n d i n g fo r
t h e - f o r t h e r e n o v a ti o n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir t h a t I c a n n o t s a y. I d o k n o w
t h a t - t h a t is a g a i n a c c o r d i n g to N a i d o o - C o l o n e l N a id o o .

Page 21 of 134

He was

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
p r e s e n t w h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d t h e M i n i s t e r w a s a t t h e - h is p r e m is e s
a t - in N a t a l - K w a Z u l u - N a ta l . S o w h e t h e r h e a c t u a ll y k n e w w h e r e t h e
m o n e y c a m e fr o m o r n o t t h a t I c a n n o t - I w il l s p e c u l a te i f I - i f I s a y
that.
W h a t I d o k n o w is th a t t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t d i d m a k e
p a y m e n t f o r t h is a n d t h e r e w a s a s e c u r it y r i s k a s s e s s m e n t d o n e a n d i t
w a s a p p r o v e d b y G e n e r a l - G e n e r a l M d lu li .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And this risk assessment that you

r e fe r to is t h a t i n r e la t io n t o t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u s p o k e o f y e s t e r d a y
10

in s o f a r a s w h e r e t h e r e i s a n e e d fo r a s e c u r i t y u p g r a d e t o t h e p r iv a te p r i v a t e p r e m is e s o f a m e m b e r a n d th a t t h e t h r e a t a s s e s s m e n t is d o n e i n
o r d e r t o e s t a b li s h t h e n e e d a n d e x t e n t o f a s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e t o b e
f u n d e d b y P u b l ic W o r k s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I n - i n a l l o f
t h e s e i n s t a n c e s t h a t is w h a t s h o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d . I n r e s p e c t o f t h e
M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e a t t h e t i m e i f I a m n o t m is ta k e n t h e - P a r li a m e n t s e ts
a s i d e I t h i n k i t i s - i t is r o u n d a b o u t R 1 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 f o r a - fo r a M in is t e r
f o r s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e s o n h is p r iv a te r e s id e n c e .
A n y a d d i t io n a l a m o u n t is - is f o r h is o w n - a t h is o w n c o s t . I

20

c a n n o t s p e c u l a te a s t o w h a t t h e M in is t e r k n e w o r d i d n o t k n o w. I k n o w
t h a t t h e a m o u n t w a s m o r e th a n t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 t h a t w a s n e e d e d f o r
t h e - f o r t h e s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e . I d id n o t s e e a n y - a n y r is k a s s e s s m e n t .
It

was

done

on

th e

home

of

G e n e r a l M d lu li

in

terms

of

th e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s p r o v i d e d t o m e .
I cannot speculate on General Mche (?) because I did not

Page 22 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
r e c e i v e t h e a c tu a l d o c u m e n ts to s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a r is k
assessment done or not.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
Colonel Naidoo

in f o r m e d

you

It
that

was
he

was

your

e v id e n c e

responsible

fo r

that
the

s u b m is s io n o f c l a i m s i n r e l a ti o n t o th e s e r e n o v a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

of

and

General Mdluli,

General Mche

the

then

In

regard

to

fo r

the

In r e s p e c t

P o l ic e

M i n is t e r,

M i n is t e r M t h e th w a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Colonel Naidoo

submitted

the

c la i m s

r e n o v a t io n s

th a t
to

M i n is t e r N a t h i M t h e t h w a ’s h o m e d i d h e in f o r m y o u a b o u t t h o s e c l a i m
d o c u m e n ts h a v i n g a n y p a r tic u la r p u r p o s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. H e i n f o r m e d
m e t h a t h e h a d c o p i e s o f t h o s e c la i m s i n h is o ff ic e w h e r e h e w o r k e d a t
t h e ti m e .

I w e n t w it h h i m .

I - I w e n t t o fe tc h th e c o p ie s o f t h e

d o c u m e n ts . H e t h e n r e l a y e d t o m e th e s t o r y a s to w h y h e h a d c o p i e s w h y h e w a s a s k e d t o m a k e c o p ie s o f th e d o c u m e n t s .
A c c o r d i n g - ( b a c k g r o u n d n o is e ) s o r r y C h a ir - a c c o r d i n g t o
C o l o n e l N a i d o o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s r e q u e s t e d h i m - s o r r y - t o m a k e c l a i ms
20

a ft e r

it

became

apparent

th a t

General Bheki Cele

th e

then

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f - o f S A P S a n d M in is t e r M t h e th w a h a d lo s t t o u c h w it h
e a c h o th e r.
A c c o r d i n g t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h e d o c u m e n t s w e r e to b e g iv e n
t o G e n e r a l C e le to e n s u r e t h e - th a t t h e M in is t e r c o u ld n o t a c t - a c t
a g a in s t h i m . T h i s i s h o w e v e r a ls o a n e x a m p le o f a n in v e s ti g a t io n w h i c h

Page 23 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
w a s n e v e r f i n a li s e d d u e t o S A P S ’ fa il u r e t o a s s is t a n d p r o v i d i n g
i m p o r t a n t i n v e s ti g a tiv e d o c u m e n ts .
S o - a n d th is f a l ls w i t h i n t h e c a t e g o r y o f w h a t I d e s c r ib e d
e a r l ie r p l a c i n g p e o p le a t - p u t t in g t h e m i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e th e y c a n n o t
g e t o u t fr o m a n d p u t ti n g th e m a t r is k a n d i t w a s a c o m m o n t h e m e t h a t
c a m e a p p a r e n t t h r o u g h o u t th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n fr o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w e d o u n d e r s ta n d th a t t h is

in v e s t i g a t io n i s o n g o in g ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair it is ongoing in the sense

t h a t i t c o n t in u e o n c e w e w e r e - o n c e w e a r e g iv e n a c c e s s t o
d e c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o - to t h i s e v e n t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e n e x t i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n p a g e 3 4 is
ti t le d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d I c a n n o t p r o n o u n c e t h e fir s t n a m e w i t h
r e s p e c t C h a ir b u t i t is M r P M a r i m u t h u .
CHAIRPERSON:

P a n g a n a th a n

I

t h in k ,

but

that

is

my

own

p r o n u n c i a ti o n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Mr R o e lo f s e m i g h t k n o w …
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I …
CHAIRPERSON: How it is pronounced.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I have it the same way Chair as

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Panganathan …

Page 24 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : M a r i m u th u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

Please give us insight

in t o h o w y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n i n t o t h is i n d iv i d u a l s t a r te d …
MR KOBUS DEMEY ER ROELOFS E: Once …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And progressed.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O n c e a g a i n C h a ir i t w a s - it w a s

s t a r t e d th r o u g h th e - t h e in f o r m a ti o n p r o v i d e d b y C o l o n e l N a i d o o . Th e
p r e m is e th is - a c c o r d in g t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o - t h e p r e m is e u n d e r w h i c h
10

t h is t o o k p la c e is b e c a u s e i n l a te 2 0 1 0 C I w e n t t h r o u g h a r e s tr u c tu r i n g
p r o c e s s w h ic h w o u l d h a v e a n i n fe c t - a n e ffe c t o n a p p o i n t m e n ts w it h in
C I a n d p o s it i o n s a n d w h e r e p e o p le a r e b e i n g p l a c e d o r n o t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h o w a s u l ti m a t e ly r e s p o n s i b l e

f o r t h e s i g n o ff f o r th a t r e s t r u c t u r i n g p r o c e s s i n y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s a s
y o u u n d e r s to o d i t to b e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r th a t w o u l d b e t h e S A P S

N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r w h ic h - w h ic h w o u ld h a v e b e e n B h e k i G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e a t th e ti m e . N o w a c c o r d i n g t o N a i d o o a s p a r t o f t h e
r e s tr u c t u r i n g G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a s t h e C F O w a n t t o - w a n t e d t o r e t a i n
20

a n d a u g m e n t a n o p e r a t i o n a l c a p a b i li ty w h ic h - w i th in C I w h ic h f e l l w h ic h fe ll o u t s i d e h is m a n d a t e .
T h i s w a s c o n t r a r y t o th e w o r k i n g m e th o d o lo g y w i t h i n C I
b e c a u s e h is u n i t b e i n g t h e S S A is c o n s i d e r e d t o b e a n o p e r a t i o n a l u n i t.
I t is - it is o p e r a ti o n a l s u p p o r t u n i t . C h a i r if I m a y e l a b o r a t e o n th a t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e .

Page 25 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W h a t i t - w h a t i t m e a n s is th a t

C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e h a v e a n o p e r a ti o n a l - h a v e o p e r a ti o n a l u n i ts w h ic h
needs to be supported.

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s i n t h e p o s i ti o n a s t h e

H e a d o f t h e S S A t o p r o v id e t h a t s u p p o r t .

I f h e - if h e h a s a n

o p e r a ti o n a l c a p a b i li t y w i th in h is - w i t h i n h is u n i t h e b e c o m e s t h e
r e fe r e e a n d th e p l a y e r.
H e i s s u p p o s e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t o n e o f h i s ta s k s i s
s u p p o s e d to m a k e s u r e th a t fu n d s a r e s p r e a d e v e n ly a n d t h a t g i v e - a n d
g iv e n a c c o r d i n g t o n e e d s .
10

I f h e h a s th i s k i n d o f p o w e r h e is i n th e

p o s i ti o n to - t o d e c i d e w h o g e ts w h a t a n d h e c a n a ls o t h e n a ls o r e w a r d
h i m s e l f i n r e s p e c t o f w h a t e v e r h e w a n ts t o d o a n d t h is i s l a r g e l y th e
r e a s o n w h y w e h a v e t h e s e i n s t a n c e s o f p e o p le b e i n g p l a c e d i n a v e r y
d i ff ic u l t s i tu a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e s e c la i m s a n d t h e s e tr a n s a c t i o n s w e r e
d e a lt

with

within

th a t

o p e r a t io n a l

unit

w h ic h

was

run

by

General Lazarus.
H e c o u ld n o t g o o u ts i d e th a t tr u s t c ir c l e fo r t h is k i n d o f
a r r a n g e m e n t. S o th a t i n e s s e n c e is w h a t - w h a t th is m e a n s . I t is n o t it i s n o t a w o r k i n g id e o l o g y t h a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e h a d b e f o r e t h a t .
T h e r e n e e d s t o b e a C h i n e s e w a l l b e t w e e n th e t w o .
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o w h a t is t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e r o l l
o f M r M a r i m u th u i n t h e c o n te x t o f th e r e s tr u c t u r i n g p r o c e s s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir a c c o r d i n g - a s I s a i d t h is is
a c c o r d i n g t o C o l o n e l N a id o o .

Mr M a r i m u th u w a s s e e n a s a c l o s e

c o n fi d e n t , c lo s e f r i e n d o f G e n e r a l C e l e d a ti n g b a c k to h is ti m e a s th e
M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t - t h e M E C f o r Tr a n s p o r t i n K w a Zu lu - N a t a l .

Page 26 of 134

I do

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
n o t h a v e p r io r - I d i d n o t h a v e p r i o r k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t .
I d i d n o t k n o w Mr M a r i m u t h u .

I knew about General Cele

b e c a u s e h e w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e - th e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r. In a n y
event

according

General Lazarus

to

General

approached

-

according

Mr Marimu thu

to

to

C o lo n e l N a i d o o

assist

him

-

by

in tr o d u c i n g h i m t o G e n e r a l C e le .
H e w a n te d a d ir e c t r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h G e n e r a l C e l e .

T h is is

n o w G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d a c c o r d i n g t o m y i n fo r m a t i o n a s I s ta t e d
e a r l ie r h e h a d - h e w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e , t h e M E C
10

f o r Tr a n s p o r t i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l w h e r e t h is r e l a t i o n s h ip w a s - w a s
formed

between

him -

b e tw e e n

Bheki -

General Bheki Cele

and

Mr Marimuthu.
H e t h e n w e n t fu r th e r. H e s a y s t h a t Mr M a r i m u th u f a c i li t a te d a
s e r ie s

of

m e e ti n g s

in

w h ic h

General Cele

agreed

to

-

to

th is

r e s tr u c t u r i n g p r o p o s a ls m a d e b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n r e s p e c t o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e .

C o l o n e l N a id o o a ls o a l le g e s t h a t G e n e r a l C e le w a s p a i d

in

secure

cash

to

th e

support

in

r e l a ti o n

to

General Lazarus

r e s tr u c t u r i n g p r o p o s a l a l lo w in g o p e r a ti o n a l c a p a b i li t y.
Mr Marimuthu
20

r e l a ti o n s h i p

as

also

r e c e iv e d

Mr Marimuthu

was

some

b e n e fi t s

r e g is t e r e d

as

fr o m
a

his

contact

p e r s o n / in f o r m e r a t C I a n d h e w a s - in t h a t p r o c e s s h e w a s p a i d la r g e
s u m s o f m o n e y to i n fl u e n c e G e n e r a l C e l e t o s u p p o r t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C o l o n e l N a i d o o a l s o in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e p e r s o n a ll y p a i d R 5 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 t o
M r M a r i m u t h u o n o n e o f s u c h o c c a s i o n a n d t h e n I r e f e r to F M 0 8 w h ic h
w a s Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s m a i n h a n d le r a t th e ti m e .

Page 27 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If we can pause there then for a

m o m e n t . T h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u p r e s e n t n o w b e fo r e t h is C o m m is s i o n
is i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t y o u - y o u s o u r c e fr o m C o l o n e l N a id o o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To w h a t e x t e n t h a v e y o u b e e n a b le to
v e r i fy a n y a s p e c ts o f t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I c a n - a t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e I
- I c a n v e r i fy t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 p a y m e n t t h a t w a s m a d e . I h a v e a c o p y o f
that document.
10

T h a t is th e c o p y o f t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w a s n o t

d e c l a s s i fi e d b y S A P S a n d t h a t w a s p l a c e d i n a - i n a n e n v e l o p e a n d
a g r e e d b y t h e m th a t i t c o u l d b e h a n d e d u p t o - t o y o u r s e l f C h a ir.
S o t h a t is t h a t d o c u m e n t . T h a t c o n f ir m s t h e p a y m e n t a n d it
was dealt with if I am not mistaken by Naidoo.

It a ls o c o n t a i n s a

m e m o r a n d u m e x p l a i n i n g t h e r e a s o n w h y M r M a r i m u t h u h a d to b e p a i d
f o r th e p e r i o d o f a y e a r. I t h i n k i n th e a m o u n t o f R 5 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 a m o n t h .
A l th o u g h I w a s o n ly a b le to r e t r i e v e t h e o n e - t h e o n e p a y m e n t . I d o
n o t h a v e t h e o th e r d o c u m e n t a t i o n r e l a ti n g t o t h a t . I t w a s n o t p r o v i d e d
to me.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir t h e e v i d e n c e th a t is p r e s e n t e d
20

in r e l a ti o n t o th a t s e a le d d o c u m e n t i s t h e n i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e
a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h is w it n e s s i s i n n o w a y s t o p p e d fr o m p r e s e n ti n g t h e
e v i d e n c e s a v e f o r t h e d o c u m e n t n o t b e i n g p r e s e n t e d t o th e C o m m i s s i o n
a s s u c h w h ic h a t th is s t a g e w e d o n o t i n te n d t o r e ly o n .
I n r e g a r d to M r M a r i m u t h u y o u h a v e n o w th r o u g h y o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n s v e r i fi e d c e r t a in p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e m a d e to h i m a n d

Page 28 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h o s e v e r if ic a ti o n s w e r e d o n e i n d e p e n d e n tl y. H a v e y o u e s t a b l is h e d a n y
o th e r c o n d u c t a c ti o n u n t o w a r d b e h a v i o u r i n r e l a ti o n t o M r M a r i m u t h u
a n d a p p o i n t m e n t s o f i n d i v i d u a ls ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I d i d .

I ju s t w a n t t o

r e c t if y s o m e t h i n g q u ic k ly. I - I t h i n k I h a v e a m is t a k e . W h e n I - w h e n I
r e fe r r e d t o th e R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 to - p a i d t o M r M a r i m u t h u i t w a s a c c o r d i n g
t o C o l o n e l N a id o o p a i d b y h i m . I d o n o t h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t r e l a t i n g t o
t h a t b u t I d o h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t r e l a ti n g t o t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 t h a t w a s
p a i d b y F M 0 8 w h ic h c o n t a i n s t h e m o ti v a t i o n f o r t h a t p a y m e n t a n d a ls o
10

e x p l a i n s th a t t h e r e w il l b e a y e a r l y - m o n t h l y p a y m e n t fo r - f o r 1 2
m o n th s o f R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 .
Ye s C h a ir. T h e r e i s a ls o th e n th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f f a m il y a n d
fr i e n d s w h ic h h a s h a p p e n e d i n te r m s o f Mr M a r i m u t h u .

Mr - M r -

C o l o n e l N a i d o o g a v e m e n a m e s . I t h e n tr i e d to v e r if y t h o s e n a m e s a n d
c o n fir m w h e t h e r i t i s a c t u a ll y tr u e o r n o t a n d th e n i n t e r m s o f - a n d a n d i n t e r m s o f t h e l is t th a t I p r o v i d e d t o t h e - to t h e C h a ir f a m il y a n d
fr i e n d s o f Mr M a r i m u t h u fr o m F M 1 3 t o F M 2 3 w a s a p p o i n t e d w i t h i n t h e
S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e .
O h , s o r r y w i th in C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a s p a r t o f t h e 2 5 0
20

appointment process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o a l l t h o s e - a l l th e p e o p l e i n v o lv e d i n r e g a r d t o
t h a t c o l u m n f e l l u n d e r C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u n o w r e f e r r in g t h e n to th e t a b l e 4
o n p a g e s 3 5 a n d 3 6 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?

Page 29 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Just by way of - by way of summary
is i t c o r r e c t th a t th e r e a r e t h e n 11 in d iv i d u a ls th a t y o u w e r e a b l e to
v e r i fy a s h a v in g b e in g a p p o i n t e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I t h in k I -

t h e r e is o n e i n d iv id u a l i n t h e r e w h ic h - h e w a s a c tu a lly - l e t m e s a y h e
o r s h e w a s a c t u a l ly a - a p o li c e m a n b e f o r e t h e t i m e . H e w a s b r o u g h t i n
u n d e r d i ff e r e n t c ir c u m s t a n c e s b u t h e w a s a ls o p a r t o f t h a t s p e c if ic c li c k
o f i n d iv i d u a ls .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i s i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t th e

c o n s tr u c t o f t h is t a b l e is n o d i ff e r e n t t o t h e c o n s t r u c t o f t h e t a b l e
r e fe r e n c e d

before

in

r e la t io n

to

a p p o in t m e n ts

in

that

it

ta b l e s

r e l a ti o n s h i p s , s ta t u s , d a te o f a p p o i n t m e n t i n r a n k , r a n k l e v e l , d a te o f
p r o m o ti o n / a p p o in t m e n t i n r a n k , r a n k a n d l e v e l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I t is

p r e c i s e ly t h e s a m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is

it

a ls o

correct

th a t

the

a p p o i n t m e n ts l is te d i n t h is t a b l e c o n s is ts o f c iv il ia n s w h o w e r e
a p p o i n t e d in t o p o s i ti o n s a s w e l l a s p r o m o t i o n s o f e x i s ti n g m e m b e r s ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d i t i s

e s p e c i a l ly t h e c i v i li a n s t h a t w e r e p r o m o t e d a t - th a t is - t h a t is m o r e
c o n tr o v e r s i a l t h a n t h e o t h e r s .

T h e s e a r e i n d iv id u a ls w it h o u t a n y

e x p e r i e n c e in p o l ic i n g n o r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o r i n te ll ig e n c e g a t h e r i n g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

To l o o k a t s o m e o f th e li s t i n g s .

If

y o u l o o k a t th e fi r s t l in e i te m o n p a g e 3 5 m a r k e d F M 1 3 - 1 - 3 . C a n y o u

Page 30 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
please take us through that?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h is p e r s o n is c u r r e n tl y s ti ll

in t h e S o u t h - i n - i n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a c c o r d i n g to a s I s t a te d e a r l ie r
a c c o r d i n g t o t h e r e c o r d s w h ic h I l o o k e d a t j u s t p r i o r t o fi n a l is in g m y
a ffi d a v i t . W h e t h e r t h a t p e r s o n is s ti ll a c t iv e t o d a y I - I c a n n o t s a y. T h e
person

was

-

this

person

was

a

c i v ili a n .

Was

a p p o in t e d

on

1 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 i n t h e r a n k o f a C o l o n e l w h ic h i s - w h ic h is a L e v e l 1 2 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And we are then to understand that

fr o m b e i n g a c iv il i a n th is p a r ti c u la r in d i v i d u a l w a s a p p o in t e d d ir e c t ly t o
10

a Level 12 …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h is a l e v e l o f C o l o n e l?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e t h e n l o o k t o t h e n e x t l i n e i te m

w h ic h i s F M 1 4 . C a n y o u p le a s e ta k e u s t h r o u g h th a t i n d iv i d u a l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a s I i n d ic a t e d h e r e t h is

in d i v i d u a l r e s ig n e d o n t h e - o n 4 J u l y 2 0 1 6 .

Th is in d iv i d u a l w a s a

c iv ili a n . A p p o i n t e d o n 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 i n t h e r a n k o f L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l
o n t h e le v e l - o n t h e L e v e l 1 0 .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u s t b y w a y o f a n o th e r e x a m p l e

r e l a ti v e t o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s y o u w e r e a b l e t o e s ta b lis h . I f w e lo o k a t on page 36 FM1-7.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t
li n e it e m ?

Page 31 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r th is p e r s o n w a s r e t ir e d o n

t h e 3 1 s t - 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 . F ir s t a p p o i n t m e n t in t o S A P S w a s th e 2 3 r d 23 May 2003.

H e w a s a C o n s t a b le o r s h e w a s a C o n s t a b l e a n d

appointed at a level - Level 5.

O n 1 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 t h is p e r s o n w a s

p r o m o te d fr o m a C o n s ta b le t o a C a p t a i n w h ic h i s a L e v e l 8 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank

you.

What

was

the

in t e l li g e n c e th a t y o u r e c e i v e d f r o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o i n r e la t io n to th e s e
in d i v i d u a ls a n d t h e ir k n o w l e d g e f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e p o s i t io n s th a t t h e y
w e r e a p p o i n t e d in t o ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

a c c o r d i n g t o C o lo n e l -

C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h e r e w a s n o p r o p e r p r o c e d u r e s f o l l o w e d in t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t.

Th e i n d iv id u a ls d i d n o t h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e o r i n t e l li g e n c e g a t h e r i n g .

T h e y c a m e fr o m a c i v i li a n li f e

a n d t h e r e i s n o v a l u e t h a t t h e y c o u l d a d d t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a t t h e
ti m e .
H a d t h e y b e e n a p p o in t e d - t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m in a p p o i n ti n g
them.

T h e y s h o u l d h a v e t h e n ju s t g o n e t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g

a p p o i n t e d c o r r e c t ly a n d th e n a s w e c a l l i t c o m e th r o u g h t h e r a n k s f o r
t h e m t o g e t t o a s it u a ti o n w h e r e th e y a r e b e i n g a p p o in t e d in t h o s e
20

s e n i o r l e v e ls o r a t th o s e s e n i o r l e v e l s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A r e t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n t s a li g n e d a t a l l
t o t h e 2 5 0 a p p o in t m e n t p r o c e s s i n 2 0 11 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th a t is p a r t
of that - that process.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h o w o u ld h a v e a p p r o v e d t h e s e

Page 32 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a p p o i n t m e n ts /p r o m o t io n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir it w o u l d b e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
b u t I s i n c e - w e l l d u r i n g t h e in v e s ti g a t io n i t b e c a m e v e r y d i ff ic u l t w h o
a c t u a ll y a p p o in t e d t h e m b e c a u s e t h a t p e r s o n h a s r u n a w a y. S o w e s i t
w i t h th e s i t u a t io n t h e s e - I d o n o t h a v e t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n - a ll o f th e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n r e la t in g to t h e a p p o in t m e n ts b u t a c c o r d i n g t o N a i d o o Colonel Naidoo

it

is

General Lazarus

that

-

that

made

th e s e

a p p o i n t m e n ts .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

What

is

a

p r o d u c ti o n

f il e

M r R o e l o fs e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir w h e n I - w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t
a p r o d u c t io n f il e a n d I a m s ti ll - a m n o w u s in g a g a i n t h e l a n g u a g e u s e d
b y C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e .

A p r o d u c t io n fi l e i s i f y o u a m e m b e r o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e y o u e i t h e r a n in f o r m e r o r a n a g e n t . Yo u w o u ld - y o u r - y o u r
c o r e fu n c t io n i s t o - i s t o g a t h e r i n te ll ig e n c e .
B a s e d o n th a t i n te ll i g e n c e y o u w o u l d w r i t e a r e p o r t .

Now if

t h e in f o r m a n t d o e s n o t w r i t e a r e p o r t t h e n h is h a n d le r o r a n a g e n t w h ic h
is h is h a n d le r w il l w r i t e a r e p o r t o n h is b e h a l f . T h a t r e p o r t w o u l d t h e n
b e p l a c e d i n h is p r o d u c ti o n fi l e . B a s e d o n t h a t r e p o r t a n a m o u n t w o u l d
20

be - would be decided upon and if the amount becomes a - a large
a m o u n t - I d o n o t h a v e t h e - t h e n u m b e r w it h m e - b u t i t d e f in i te ly - i f i t
is m o r e t h a n R 1 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 th e n t h e r e is a C o m m i t t e e t h a t n e e d s t o s i t
a n d t o d e c id e w h e t h e r th is i s v a l u e f o r m o n e y i n f o r m a ti o n a n d th e n
b a s e d o n t h a t t h e p a y m e n t w o u l d b e m a d e t o t h e i n f o r m e r.
I n t h is r e g a r d t h e r e w e r e n o p r o d u c ti o n fi le s w h e n w e a s k e d

Page 33 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
f o r t h e m . T h e r e i s n o - t h e r e w a s a b s o l u t e ly n o p r o o f t h a t t h e y d i d a n y
w o r k f o r C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e a n d I a m t a lk i n g n o w a b o u t t h e t i m e w h e n
t h e y s t il l h a d a c c e s s to th o s e d o c u m e n ts . I n t h a t p e r i o d t h e y c o u l d n o t
fi n d i t s o t h e y c o u l d n o t g iv e i t to m e .
S o a n d - a n d a f t e r w a r d s it w a s p r o v i d e d t o m e in a n y e v e n t
a ft e r - a f t e r G e n e r a l H a n k e l w a s - w a s tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m - f r o m C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e .

S o i n t e r m s o f t h a t p r o c e s s i n te r m s o f th e f il e s -

p r o d u c t io n fi le s w e d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y a l t h o u g h w e d i d a s k f o r t h e m a t
t h e ti m e a n d G e n e r a l H a n k e l in f o r m e d m e t h a t h e c o u ld n o t f in d a n y
10

a n d I h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d th e m i n a n y e v e n t u p t o - u p to n o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Who

was

ta s k e d

with

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n i n to th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f - a s y o u h a v e - a s y o u h a v e
r e fe r r e d t o - f a m il y a n d f r i e n d s o f C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e m e m b e r s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir a - y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h a t I
t e s ti fi e d y e s t e r d a y a b o u t G e n e r a l M o t h i b a t h a t c a m e t o v is i t m e i n C a p e
To w n .

H e w a s i n c h a r g e o f d is c ip li n a r y a c ti o n s t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d -

d is c i p l i n a r y i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o ta k e p l a c e . A s s i s ti n g
h i m a B r i g a d ie r M a d o n s e l a a n d a C a p t a i n H ir a l e l w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d I
r e q u e s t e d t h e m a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r i t w a s t h r o u g h
20

G e n e r a l D r a m a t o r w h e t h e r i t w a s th r o u g h d i r e c t c o n ta c t w i t h t h e m to
a s s is t m e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e g a r d in g C o l o n e l N a id o o ’s a l l e g a ti o n s
a s t o w h a t i s g o in g o n i n K w a Zu l u - N a ta l s p e c i f ic a l ly r e l a ti n g to
M r M a r i m u t h u a s I d i d n o t h a v e t i m e a t th e ti m e .
I w a s b u s y i n G a u t e n g a s I s t a te d e a r li e r a n d t h e y c o n ti n u e d
w i t h th a t in v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h e y d i d c e r t a i n i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d w e o n a

Page 34 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
c o n ti n u e d b a s i s w e e x c h a n g e d in f o r m a ti o n a n d a ff id a v i ts r e g a r d i n g
that.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w h a t w a s y o u r r o l e r e l a tiv e to

t h e ir s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts o f - a s y o u h a v e te r m e d f a mi ly
a n d fr i e n d s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I w a s m o r e c o n c e n tr a ti n g o n
t h e a p p o i n t m e n t s t h a t w e r e d o n e u p i n - u p i n G a u t e n g r e l a ti n g t o
General Mdluli

and

General Lazarus.

A l th o u g h

we

in v e s t i g a t io n r e g a r d in g t h a t b u t t h a t w a s m y fo c u s a r e a .
10

shared

the

T h e y - t h e ir

f o c u s w h e n b e y o n d j u s t K w a Zu l u - N a t a l . T h e ir f o c u s w e n t to t h e a c tu a l
p r o c e s s it s e l f a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n in t o th a t p r o c e s s .
S o I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n th e c o m p l e t e p r o c e s s o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n o f th e t w o - 2 5 0 - 2 5 0 p r o c e s s . T h e y w e r e a p p o i n te d t o
do

that.

My

General Mdluli.

in v o lv e m e n t

related

to

General Lazarus

and

T h a t is h o w I k n o w a b o u t t h i s a n d a s - a s I s ta t e d

e a r l ie r I r e q u e s t e d M a d o n s e l a e i t h e r t h r o u g h D r a m a t o r d ir e c t c o n t a c t
t o - to d o t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n r e g a r d i n g M r M a r i m u t h u a n d w e tr a d e d
in f o r m a ti o n a s w e l l a s a ff id a v i ts i n th a t r e g a r d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A s a r e s u l t o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o

t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f fa m i ly a n d fr i e n d s o f Mr M a r i m u t h u w h a t o t h e r
a l le g a ti o n s o r c o n c e r n s o r c o m p l a in ts d id y o u e s t a b li s h ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir o n e o f th e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t

w a s - t h a t w a s v e r y c o n c e r n in g t o m e w a s a n a ll e g a t io n o f s e x u a l
m is c o n d u c t a g a i n s t Mr M a r i m u t h u . I h a v e - to t h a t e ffe c t I - I r e c e iv e d
a - a n - a s w o r n a ff id a v i t e x p la i n i n g e x a c t l y w h a t h a p p e n e d . T h i s w a s -

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h is w a s b r o u g h t u n d e r in t e n ti o n - a t t e n t io n o f n o t o n ly p o l ic e
m a n a g e m e n t b u t a ls o u n d e r t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e th e n In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l
o f I n te ll i g e n c e M s F a it h R a d e b e .
I t w a s a t t h a t p o in t i n ti m e th a t i t w a s d e c id e d - w e l l i t w a s
d e c i d e d i t s h o u l d b e i n v e s ti g a te d b u t M s R a d e b e h a s - h a s i n d ic a t e d
t h a t th a t e v e n t a l s o s h o c k e d h e r a n d s h e in d ic a t e d t h a t it s h o u l d b e
in v e s t i g a t e d t h o r o u g h ly.

S o i t w a s k n o w n a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h is h a s

h a p p e n e d a n d t h e r e q u e s t w a s th a t it w a s - t h a t i t s h o u l d b e
in v e s t i g a t e d .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D i d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n c o n ti n u e i n to

t h e s e a l le g a ti o n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o C h a ir. It d id n o t. N o t a s fa r a s
I k n o w. I d id n o t r e c e iv e a n y o t h e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e la t in g - r e la t in g t o
t h is in v e s t i g a t io n . T h is in v e s ti g a t io n w a s s t o p p e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

But having said that in that the

in v e s t i g a t io n w a s s to p p e d a r e w e t o a c c e p t t h e n t h a t t h e a ll e g a t i o n s o f
s e x u a l m is c o n d u c t a r e n o m o r e th a n a l l e g a ti o n s b e c a u s e it w a s n o t
v e n til a t e d in a n y l e g a l p r o c e s s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir w e h a v e t h e

a ffi d a v i t w h i c h is u n d e r o a t h b u t t h a t i s a s f a r a s i t w a s t a k e n . I t h i n k
a t t h e t i m e f u r t h e r a ffi d a v i t s w e r e a ls o t a k e n t o c o r r o b o r a t e w h a t h a d
t a k e n p l a c e o f w h ic h I a l s o d o h a v e a c c e s s b u t it d id n o t g o fu r t h e r t h a n
t h a t . S o i t h a s n o t b e e n v e n t il a t e d i n C o u r t t h e r e is n o d e c i s i o n b e e n
m a d e r e g a r d i n g t h i s , n o t a s f a r a s I k n o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And as such it remains to be

Page 36 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a l le g a ti o n s a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Pardon?

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And as such it remains to be

a l le g a ti o n s a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a i r t h i s r e m a i n a n

a l le g a ti o n a c c o r d in g to m y i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e a r e o n p a g e 3 7 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t

w h ic h d o c u m e n ts a d d it i o n a l a l l e g a ti o n s th a t y o u r e c e iv e d o f – o r
c o m p la i n t s o f w r o n g d o in g a g a in s t M r M a r i m u th u c a n y o u p l e a s e g iv e
10

u s a n o v e r v ie w o f s u c h c o m p l a i n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i n – a s I s t a te d e a r li e r

B r i g a d ie r M a d o n s e ll a a n d I e x c h a n g e d a ff id a v i ts a n d i n fo r m a t i o n
r e g a r d in g h is i n v e s t i g a t io n th a t w a s i n N a t a l , n o in t e r m s o f th o s e
a ffi d a v i ts t h a t is in m y p o s s e s s i o n it i n d i c a t e s n e p o t is m i n r e l a ti o n t o
M r M a r i m u t h u , it in d i c a t e s a le a d i n g r o le a t M r M a r i m u th u p l a y e d i n th e
a p p o i n t e d o f fa m i ly a n d fr ie n d s t o s u c h a n e x t e n t t h a t h e w o u ld c a ll
p e o p l e in , h e w o u l d m a k e t h e m s i g n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t d o c u m e n ts t h a t
t h e y a r e a p p o i n t e d . T h e r e ’s n o i ll u s io n t h a t h e m a d e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t
w i t h i n d i v i d u a ls in v o lv e d h e w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h a t t h a t c a n n o t b e ,
20

h e ’s n o t a m e m b e r o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e , h e is n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o d o
that.

Th e n t h e r e is t h e b l a ta n t n o n - c o m p li a n c e w it h s e l e c t io n a n d

r e c r u it m e n t p r o c e d u r e s w it h in S A P S , i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e s e in d iv i d u a ls
w e r e r e c r u i t e d i n t o S A P S w i t h o u t t h e n e c e s s a r y s k il ls to f u lf il th a t
f u n c t i o n t h a t t h e y w e r e a p p o i n te d fo r a n d t h e n t h e i n fi lt r a t io n o f M r
M a r i m u t h u a n d o t h e r r o l e p la y e r s i n v o l v e d in fr a u d , c o r r u p t i o n a n d

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
o th e r c r i m e s in t h e K Z N L e g is l a t u r e a n d K Z N p r o v in c e a n d th e n
o b v i o u s l y, a s I s t a t e d e a r li e r t h e s e x u a l e x p l o i t a ti o n b y M r M a r i m u t h u o f
a C I e m p l o y e e . C o p ie s o f th e a ff i d a v i ts a r e i n my p o s s e s s i o n a n d w i ll
b e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o th e C o m m i s s i o n if n e c e s s a r y.

I d o n o t a t ta c h

t h e s e a ffi d a v i t s d u e t o t h e p o s s ib le e x p o s u r e o f a g e n ts w h o s e n a m e s
a r e m e n t io n e d t h e r e i n a n d n o t i n t h e p u b l ic i n t e r e s t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Now what relevance do all of the

a ffi d a v i ts w h ic h p r e s e n ts a ll o f t h e s e – a l l o f t h i s e v id e n c e a g a i n s t Mr
M a r i m u t h u , h o w d o e s t h a t li n k to t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t?
10

MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

the

f in a n c e

t h a t ’s

r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h is c o m e s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e ’s A c c o u n t a p a r t fr o m
s a l a r y p a y m e n ts – a n d t h e r e I’ m n o t e x a c t ly s u r e b e c a u s e I c a n ’ t
r e m e m b e r i f th e a g e n t ’s p a y m e n ts c o m e s fr o m th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s
A c c o u n t a n d th e b e i n g r e i m b u r s e d b y S A P S o r v is a v e r s a b u t t h e m o n e y
c o m e s t h r o u g h t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t fo r a n y o t h e r e x p e n s e s
r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e i n d iv i d u a ls . I n o t h e r w o r d s , v e h ic le s , o ffic e fu r n i tu r e
a n d th a t k in d o f t h i n g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e n e x t a s p e c t t h a t y o u r e f e r to

r e l a ti v e t o Mr M a r i m u t h u c o n c e r n s r e n t a l o f p r o p e r ti e s .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C a n y o u p le a s e e l a b o r a t e ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r a s I s t a t e d e a r l ie r t h is a l s o

comes from Colonel Naidoo relating to properties leased to the State by
M r M a r i m u t h u a s s a fe h o u s e s .

A c c o r d i n g to C o lo n e l N a id o o , M r

M a r i m u t h u r e c e i v e d i n fl a te d r e n t a l s u p t o R 2 5 0 0 0 0 a m o n t h f o r th e s e

Page 38 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
p r e m is e s .

U n fo r t u n a t e l y, I w a s n o t i n a p o s it i o n t o c o r r o b o r a te t h is

a l le g a ti o n a s I w a s n o t p r o v i d e d th e d o c u m e n t s t o d o s o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W a s t h e r e a n y a s p e c t o f th is t h a t

y o u w e r e a b le t o v e r i fy ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s t h a t is tr u e C h a ir, I w a s a b le

t o v e r i f y th e u s e o f a M r J o h n A p p a l s a m i a n d h is c o m p a n y D e a z Tr a d i n g
w h o w a s u s e d a s a c o n d u i t t o l e a s e p r o p e r t ie s o n b e h a lf o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e t o b e u s e d a s s a fe h o u s e s . W h a t I c a n s t a te i n t h is r e g a r d
is th a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e d o h a v e a p r o c e s s th a t th e y g o th r o u g h w h e n
10

t h e y a r e c o n t e m p l a t i n g le a s in g a p r o p e r ty b e c a u s e t h a t c o m e s w it h a 1 2
y e a r – a 1 2 - m o n t h c o n tr a c t a n d a ll t h e le g a l th in g s t h a t is a s s o c i a t e d
w i t h th a t .

S o t h e y h a v e a p r o c e s s th r o u g h w h ic h t h a t g o e s , i n t h i s

r e g a r d w i t h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f D e a z Tr a d i n g i t d i d n o t g o t h r o u g h t h a t
process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is t h e r e a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p

b e t w e e n D e a z Tr a d in g , w h ic h f o r t h e r e c o r d i s D e a z Tr a d i n g a n d th e
r e n t a l o f Mr M a r i m u t h u ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir h e w a s

in s t r u m e n t a l i n – a s th e l e a s i n g a g e n t t h a t s i g n e d th e l e a s e a g r e e m e n t
20

o f p r o p e r t i e s b e lo n g i n g t o M r M a r i m u t h u o n b e h a l f o f M r M a r i m u t h u a s a
le a s in g a g e n t w it h C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a s th e l e s s o r in t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h o is J o h n A p p a ls a m i , f o r t h e

record spelt Appalsami?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir Mr J o h n A p p a l s a m i

a c c o r d i n g t o m y i n f o r m a t io n a n d a c c o r d i n g to o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s is a

Page 39 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
fr i e n d o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , th e y g o t o t h e s a m e c h u r c h t o g e t h e r a n d h i s
w i f e a s w e ll a s M r A p p a ls a m i ’s w i fe a t s o m e s t a g e – a n d I k n o w I h a v e
n o t m e n ti o n e d th is in t h e a ffi d a v it s a s a t , j u s t p r i o r to t h i s w e r e c o m e m b e r s o r d ir e c t o r s o f e i th e r a c o m p a n y o r a C C .

So there were

p e r s o n a l in t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n M r A p p a ls a m i a n d Mr L a z a r u s o n a – a n d
I r e g a r d th e m a s fr ie n d s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And have now addressed Deaz

Tr a d in g y o u ’ r e t a k i n g u s to t h e n e x t i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h ic h y o u ’v e t i tl e d a s
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , Mr J o h n A p p a l s a m i o f D e a z Tr a d in g C C s a f e h o u s e s .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
I n t h i s r e g a r d y o u r e fe r t o v a r i o u s

p r o p e r ti e s w h ic h w e r e r e n t e d a s s a fe h o u s e s , c a n y o u p l e a s e t a k e th e
C h a ir t h r o u g h t h e e v id e n c e i n t h is r e g a r d , n o t o n ly in s o f a r a s w h e r e y o u
o b t a i n e d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m b u t w h i c h p a r t s o f t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n y o u
v e r i fi e d , i f y o u c a n s t a r t w i t h t h e f ir s t p r o p e r ty c a ll e d C l e a r W a t e r
E s ta t e ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir t h is p r o p e r t y w a s a ls o

le a s e d t h r o u g h D e a z Tr a d i n g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

W h e n w a s th is ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e l e a s e w a s – t h e m o n th ly

r e n t a l fo r th a t p r o p e r ty w a s R 2 0 0 0 0 a n d th e l e a s e – i t w a s l e a s e d
d u r i n g N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , a s f a r a s I c a n r e m e m b e r t h a t’s w h e n t h e
c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d f o r t h a t p r o p e r t y.

T h a t s p e c i fic p r o p e r ty w a s f o r

t h e e x c lu s iv e u s e o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i, , h e h a d a p r iv a te r e s id e n c e i n
B o k s b u r g a s I s t a te d e a r l ie r b u t h e a l s o u s e d th is p l a c e a s a r e s id e n c e

Page 40 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a n d t h a t i s a l s o – t h is is a ls o t h e p r o p e r ty w h ic h I s t a t e d w h e r e t h e
L e x u s v e h ic l e w e r e f o u n d s ix t o e ig h t – t h i s is N o v e m b e r s o w e – e i g h t
m o n th s , s i x m o n t h s a f t e r h i s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s – is t h a t a d i ff e r e n t o n e fr o m t h e p r e m i s e s

w h e r e y o u g o t t h e L e x u s o r th e s a m e o n e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th is is t h e p r e m i s e s y e s C h a ir.

O k a y.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o w t h is i n f o r m a ti o n w a s

p r o v i d e d t o m e b y C o l o n e l N a id o o a n d w e w e r e a b le t o c o r r o b o r a t e
10

w h a t h e s a id t o t h i s e x t e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you, the next property you

r e fe r t o i s c a ll e d G o r d o n Vil la s .
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, th is

p r o p e r ty b e lo n g s t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i it w a s a ls o le a s e d t h r o u g h t h e
c o m p a n y c a ll e d D e a z Tr a d i n g a n d th e c o n tr a c t t h a t I h a d s h o w e d t h a t
t h e l e a s e - t h a t th e e n d o f t h e l e a s e w a s s u p p o s e d to b e S e p t e m b e r
2 0 11 a n d C o l o n e l N a i d o o s a i d th a t h e p a i d t h e m o n t h ly r e n ta l in c a s h o f
t h is p r o p e r ty t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i.

N o w o n t h e o u ts e t t h e r e is n o –

p o li c e m e n a n d n o t p r e c l u d e d a t th e t i m e p o l ic e m e n o r s t a t e o ffi c i a l s a r e
20

n o t p r e c l u d e d fr o m d o i n g b u s i n e s s w it h t h e S t a te b u t t h e c a v e a t is , y o u
n e e d to d e c la r e s u c h a n d i n fo r m y o u r e m p l o y e r. N o fi n a n c i a l d is c l o s u r e
w a s d o n e r e g a r d i n g th is a n d t h a t is w h y t h e – a c c o r d i n g to C o l o n e l
N a i d o o th a t i s w h y p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e in c a s h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e n e x t p r o p e r ty y o u r e f e r to w a s

c a l l e d M o r g a n R id g e .

Page 41 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOF SE:

C h a ir t h is i s a – t h is is a ls o a

p r o p e r ty t h a t w a s le a s e d fr o m t h e M a r x f a m ily a n d i t i s b a s e d o n t h e
s a m e p r e m is e a s I e x p l a in e d e a r l ie r r e g a r d in g M r M a r x ’s s o n , t h e r e w a s
t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n Mr M a r x a n d h is c o m p a n y a n d G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s a n d a c c o r d i n g to C o lo n e l N a id o o t h e m o n th ly r e n t a l f o r th a t
s p e c i f ic p r o p e r ty w a s i n f l a t e d b y R 2 0 0 0 p e r m o n th w h ic h w a s d iv i d e d
between himself and General Lazarus.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
and
10

Morgan

Ridge

what

A n d i n r e s p e c t o f b o t h G o r d o n Vil l a s

did

your

i n v e s t ig a ti o n s

corroborate

w i t h … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h a t t h e s e l e a s e s d id i n f a c t

t a k e p l a c e , t h a t p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e a n d t h a t th e l e a s e a g r e e m e n ts
w e r e w i t h D e a z Tr a d in g , w e h a v e t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n r e l a t i n g to th a t
a l t h o u g h w e d o n ’ t h a v e t h e c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts t h a t s a y s t h a t s e t s
t h is o u t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W e r e y o u a b l e to e s t a b l is h w h e th e r

M s C L D ic k s b e i n g th e d a u g h t e r o f M r M a r x w a s a w a r e o f t h is
s i tu a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir I w o u ld n o t k n o w w e d i d n ’ t

a p p r o a c h h e r b e c a u s e i t is o n e o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t w e c o u l d n ’ t
fi n a l is e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Why?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

D u e to t h e f a c t t h a t w e d i d n ’ t

h a v e a ll t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a s p r o v id e d – t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e
p r o v i d e d b y C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .

Page 42 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e n e x t p r e m is e s y o u r e fe r t o is

O ff ic e A c c o m m o d a ti o n , p le a s e e l a b o r a t e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir in r e s p e c t o f – t h is ti e s

c lo s e ly w i t h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f f a m il y a n d fr i e n d s s p e c i f ic a l ly G e n e r a l
M d lu li .

T h e s e i n d iv id u a l s w e r e e m p l o y e d b y th e S t a te a s a g e n ts a n d

t h e y w o r k e d f r o m t h is s p e c i f ic o ff ic e a c c o m m o d a ti o n t o d o t h e ir
functions.

S o a p a r t fr o m th e f a c t t h a t, o n m y a s s e r t i o n th a t t h e s e

m e m b e r s o r t h e s e i n d iv id u a ls w e r e n o t o n ly a p p o i n t e d i m p r o p e r l y a n d
ill e g a ll y f u r th e r f in a n c ia l i m p l ic a ti o n s f o r t h i s S t a t e a r e t h a t t h e s e
10

p e o p l e h a d t o b e h o u s e d a n d f o r t h a t o ffi c e a c c o m m o d a t io n t h e r e w a s a
r e n t a l f o r o ffic e a c c o m m o d a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
the

m o n th ly

rental

th a t

was

W a s t h e r e a n y c o n c e r n i n r e l a ti o n t o
payable

in

respect

of

th is

o ff ic e

a c c o m m o d a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, C o l o n e l N a id o o i n t h is

r e g a r d a l s o s a y s th a t t h e m o n t h ly r e n t a l w a s in f la t e d , I ’ m n o t i n a
p o s i ti o n t o v e r i fy w h e t h e r s u c h i n fl a ti o n d id t a k e p la c e a n d I j u s t w a n t
t o c l a r i fy, i n t e r m s o f t h e p r e v io u s o n e w h e n – r e g a r d in g M o r g a n R i d g e
it is w h a t C o l o n e l N a id o o to l d m e , I a m n o t in a p o s i ti o n t o s a y w h e t h e r
20

it w a s in f la t e d o r n o t o r w h e th e r t h e R 2 0 0 0 w a s p a id o r n o t.

I t is

i m p o s s i b le t o v e r i fy t h a t a p a r t fr o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t t h e n t o b e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t in

r e l a ti o n t o t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n D e a z Tr a d i n g w a s u s e d a s th e e n ti ty
t h r o u g h w h ic h c e r ta i n p r o p e r t ie s w e r e r e n t e d f o r p u r p o s e s o f s a fe
houses?

Page 43 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M o s t o f w h ic h w e r e a t m o n t h l y

r e n t a ls th a t w e r e in f la t e d b u t s o m e o f t h a t in f o r m a ti o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t
y o u w e r e n o t a b le t o v e r i fy d u e t o d o c u m e n ta t io n n o t b e in g a v a i la b le ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a i r t h a t is tr u e a n d a l s o

d u e t o t h e f a c t t h a t s o m e o f t h e s e a ll e g a t i o n s is C o l o n e l N a id o o ’s w o r d
a g a in s t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ w o r d s o I w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o k n o w w h e t h e r
t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n b e t w e e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o r C o lo n e l N a i d o o d i d t a k e
place or not.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h e n e x t i n v e s ti g a ti o n s ta r t s o n

p a g e 3 9 a n d i t’s ti t le d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a u th o r is e d t r i p s a b r o a d f o r
G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d f a m il y.

Yo u r e v i d e n c e s p e a k s s p e c i fi c a ll y t o t w o

tr i p s , c a n y o u … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e t h a t m ig h t b e a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e t o t a k e t h e

t e a a d j o u r n m e n t s o t h a t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k h e c a n th e n s t a r t o n t h a t
one.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

A s is p l e a s e s C h a ir.

W e ’l l t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t h a l f

p a s t e le v e n , w e a d j o u r n .
20

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Mr R o e l o fs e w e a r e o n p a g e 3 9 o f

Page 44 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
y o u r a ffi d a v i t a t w h ic h y o u n o w d e a l w i t h t h e n e x t i n v e s t ig a ti o n ti tl e d
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s A u t h o r i s e d tr ip s a b r o a d f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d f a m il y.
I n p a r t ic u l a r y o u r e fe r t o t w o t r i p s . C a n w e d e a l w i th t h e fir s t tr i p w h ic h
is r e fe r e n c e d a s Tr i p t o C h in a ?

P l e a s e s w it c h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e .

Thank you.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir. T h i s a g a i n w a s o n th e

b a c k o f in f o r m a t io n p r o v i d e d t o m e b y C o l o n e l N a id o o a n d b a s e d o n
t h is in f o r m a t io n I w a s a b le t o e s t a b l is h t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h is –
h is t h e n w i f e Ms V L M d l u l i f le w b u s i n e s s c l a s s a n d d e p a r t e d fr o m
10

O liv e r Ta m b o I n t e r n a t io n a l A ir p o r t t o H o n g K o n g I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t
and returned

fr o m H o n g

Kong

I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t o n t h e 1 4 t h

November 2009. According to General – Colonel Naidoo General Mdluli
in f o r m e d h i m t h a t t h e M d lu li w e r e v is i ti n g t h e i r d a u g h t e r B o n s is w e
M d lu li i n C h i n a . H e w a s a b l e t o s u b – I w a s a b l e to e s ta b l is h t h a t t h e
d a u g h t e r d i d in f a c t s t u d y i n C h i n a a n d s h e w a s p r e s e n t i n C h i n a a t th e
ti m e a c c o r d i n g t o h e r tr a v e lli n g r e c o r d s d u r in g t h is tr i p – w h e n t h is tr i p
was undertaken.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d V L M d l u l i is t h a t

Vu s i – M s Vu s i w a n e L ily M d u li ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Thank you. Please proceed.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s w i f e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H is w i f e a t t h e ti m e y e s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

Page 45 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s th e …

T h e h e a d in g t h e r e s a y s a u t h o r is e d tr ip s .

Is t h a t

c o r r e c t – a u t h o r is e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

In …

CHAIRPERSON: The heading?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i t d e p e n d s o n th e d e fi n it i o n

– d e f i n i ti o n o f a u t h o r i s e d . T h e p a p e r w o r k w a s d o n e a n d t h e s ig n a t u r e s
were there.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f i t is n o t a u t h o r i s e d b y th e r i g h t p e r s o n it i s n o t
authorised.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

I f t h a t is th e d is ti n c t io n C h a ir

t h e n i t w a s n o t a u t h o r is e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b e c a u s e w h e n y o u s a y a u t h o r is e d it g iv e s t h e

i m p r e s s io n th a t i t i s p r o p e r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o – s o i t is a c t u a ll y u n a u th o r is e d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I f y o u l o o k a t th e f a c ts it is

u n a u th o r is e d y e s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

We were able – I was able to

e s t a b li s h th a t t h e tr i p a m o u n te d t o R 11 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 o f w h ic h R 6 0 0 0 0 . 0 0
w a s f u n d e d t h r o u g h th e S S A a c c o u n t . I t w a s b a s e d o n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s
tr a v e l li n g c o s ts a n d a c c o m m o d a ti o n .

A f u r t h e r R 5 0 0 0 0 .0 0 w a s

a l le g e d ly d o n a te d b y A t la n ti s M o t o r s v i a th e B e ir u t [? ] a c c o u n t .

Page 46 of 134

Th e

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
m o t iv a t i o n p r o v i d e d f o r t h e f u n d s to b e u ti l is e d f r o m t h e S S A a n d t h is is
n o w th e – t h e m o ti v a t i o n i n r e s p e c t o f G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s a i r ti c k e t a n d
a c c o m m o d a ti o n . In t h e c a s e th a t G e n e r a l M d lu li w o u l d o v e r – w e n t to
C h i n a in h is o ffi c i a l c a p a c i ty. T h a t is w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s e e k – s e e k s
t o p r e s e n t to th e a u th o r. I m e a n t o t h e r e a d e r o f th e d o c u m e n t . I w a s
a b l e t o c o n fir m t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u li d id n o t s u b m i t a n y l e a v e fo r m s – I
a m s o r r y. H e s u p p l ie d l e a v e f o r m s fo r t h a t t i m e fr a m e . I n o t h e r w o r d s
h e w a s o n le a v e . H e …
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry did you say he did submit leave forms?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

He did submit leave forms.

CHAIRPERSON: So he could not have been on – at work.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
v a c a ti o n l e a v e y e s .

So he was on – he was on

In t h a t ti m e f r a m e f o r th is s p e c if ic tr i p .

General

M d lu li a ls o d id n o t i n f o r m G e n e r a l D r a m a t w h o w a s h i s d ir e c t h e a d a t
t h e ti m e . H is – o f h is i n t e n t io n t o t a k e – t o u n d e r t a k e a n o ffi c i a l tr i p .
T h e – t h is is c o n f ir m e d b y G e n e r a l D r a m a t in a n a ff id a v i t w h ic h I t o o k
fr o m h i m .

Th e r e w a s a ls o n o a p p l ic a ti o n m a d e v i a t h e o ff ic e o f th e

N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r w h i c h is th e n o r m .

If you go – if you go

o v e r s e a s y o u h a v e t o m a k e a n a p p li c a t i o n t h r o u g h t h e o ffi c e o f th e
20

N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r w h ic h t h e n w o u l d f o r w a r d i t t o th e M i n is te r o f
P o lic e w h e r e a p p r o v a l w il l b e th e n a t ta c h e d to t h a t d o c u m e n t .

Th is

s p e c i f ic d o c u m e n t w a s a p p r o v e d b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h is s p e c i fi c t r i p i n
t e r m s o f th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s p r e s e n te d to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e w o u l d n o t b e th e r ig h t p e r s o n to a p p r o v e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e c a n n o t b e t h e r ig h t p e r s o n t o

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a p p r o v e th a t – t h a t e x p e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [I n d i s t i n c t ].
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d a s I s ta t e d e a r li e r I w a s a b l e

t o c o n fir m t h a t B o s i s w e M d lu li w h o i s t h e d a u g h t e r s h e d e p a r t e d S o u t h
A fr ic a o n th e 2 9 t h A u g u s t 2 0 0 9 a n d s h e r e tu r n e d fr o m C h i n a to S o u t h
A fr ic a o n th e 3 0 t h J a n u a r y 2 0 1 0 . T h a t f a l ls w i th i n t h e p e r i o d th a t t h is
tr i p t o o k p la c e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d w h a t i s th e r e l e v a n c e o f t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t s h e w a s i n Ms B o s is w e M d l u li w a s i n C h i n a a t th e ti m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e r e le v a n c e o f h e r – o f

h e r a c c o m p a n y i n g G e n e r a l M d lu li a t t h e ti m e a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d
g iv e s c r e d e n c e to th e i n f o r m a t io n g iv e n b y C o l o n e l N a i d o o th a t t h e y
w e n t th e r e to v is i t t h e ir c h il d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

But you – sorry I did not mean to

in t e r r u p t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I ju s t w a n t t o c o m e b a c k t o t h e

R 6 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t h a t w a s – o r th e R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 th a t w a s a d v a n c e d t h r o u g h
20

t h e B e ir u t [ ? ] a c c o u n t A t l a n t is M o t o r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e l l t h e n b e f o r e w e a d d r e s s th a t

R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 c a n I ju s t g e t c la r i ty fr o m y o u b e c a u s e y o u m e n ti o n t h a t M s
B o s is w e M d l u l i ’s t r a v e l a r r a n g e m e n t s w e r e a ls o a r r a n g e d t h r o u g h a
W e s t v i ll e Tr a v e l t o w h ic h y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t y e s t e r d a y.
r ig h t ?

Page 48 of 134

Is t h a t

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I c o u l d n o t

fi n d a n y i n d ic a ti o n o f p a y m e n t b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t in te r m s
h e r a ir t r a v e l w h e n s h e w e n t o v e r t o C h in a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

O k a y.

If y o u c o u l d t h e n p l e a s e

elaborate.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I th i n k y o u w a n te d to d e a l w i t h w h a t – is i t

R60 000.00 or R50 000.00?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

R 5 0 0 0 0 .0 0 y e s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u w i ll

r e m e m b e r t h a t I te s ti fi e d e a r l ie r I d o n o t k n o w i f I h a v e d e a l t w i t h i t i n
d e t a i l b u t th e r e w a s a n a c c o u n t o r a j o u r n a l a c c o u n t o r g e n e r a l l e d g e r
a c c o u n t d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t y o u w a n t t o c a l l i t w it h in t h e b o o k s o f
A t la n ti s M o t o r s . M o n e y w a s s e t a s id e in t o t h a t a c c o u n t f o r tr a n s a c ti o n s
r e l a ti n g t o b e n e fi ts th a t is p a i d t o c e r t a in i n d iv id u a ls . T h e a c c o u n t i s
f u n d e d t h r o u g h p a y m e n ts t h r o u g h tr a n s a c t io n s w i th A t l a n t is M o t o r s a n d
C o m p a n y X . T h e p e r i o d c o n c e r n e d t h a t I h a d – th a t I l o o k e d a t w a s
a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s a n d t h e v a l u e o f t h e v e h ic le s b o u g h t fr o m A t l a n tis
M o t o r s w a s a b o u t R 6 1 m i ll io n .
CHAIRPERSON: 61?

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

M i ll i o n .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e t o ta l a m o u n t fo r v e h ic l e s

b o u g h t fr o m t h a t c o m p a n y d u r i n g t h a t ti m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r th r e e y e a r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O v e r th r e e y e a r s y e s C h a ir.

Page 49 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h i c h y e a r s o r n o t r e a ll y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w a s 2 0 0 9 to 2 0 1 2 .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O r e n d 2 0 11 .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e r e a b o u t s .

CHAIRPERSON: And do you remember how many cars those were that
w e r e b o u g h t d u r i n g t h a t t i m e to c o s t R 6 1 m i lli o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a ir i t w a s q u i t e a l o t o f c a r s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s q u it e a l o t o f c a r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a , j a . I d o n o t th i n k t h e is s u e is

t h e f a c t t h a t t h e c a r s w e r e n o t d e liv e r e d o r a n y th i n g li k e t h a t th e c a r s
w e r e a c t u a ll y s o l d t o S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I m e a n t o C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e . T h e

– h o w e v e r th e a m o u n t o f tr a n s a c t i o n s t h a t t o o k p l a c e o r t h e v a lu e o f
t h e t r a n s a c t io n s th a t t o o k p l a c e a ll o w e d A t la n ti s M o t o r s to s e t a s i d e
f u n d s w h ic h w a s u t il is e d t h e n b y m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e fo r
t h e ir o w n b e n e f i t a n d f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f o t h e r s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t m e j u s t u n d e r s t a n d . Th e o ff ic ia l p o s i ti o n is
t h e o ffi c i a l p o s i t io n t h a t t h e s e t ti n g a s i d e o f c e r t a i n fu n d s fo r t h a t
p u r p o s e a n d t o b e p u t in w h a t y o u c a l l th e g e n e r a l l e d g e r a c c o u n t t h a t
w a s – t h a t is in o r d e r ? T h e r e i s n o th i n g w r o n g w i t h th a t o n it s o w n ? O r
t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g w r o n g w i t h t h a t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h e r e w a s e x te n s iv e

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
e v i d e n c e l e d b e c a u s e t h is s p e c i f ic i s n o t t h e tr i p t o C h i n a b u t t h e B e i r u t
account.

T h e r e w a s e x t e n s iv e e v i d e n c e le d i n t h e tr i a l w h ic h is s t ill

c o n ti n u i n g a g a i n s t M r B a r n a r d a n d M r – a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . W e a r e
n o w a w a it i n g ju d g m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O n t h is s p e c i fic a c c o u n t.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Th e r e w a s – t h e r e is n o t – t h e

is s u e o f a – o f a – o f th e B e ir u t a c c o u n t i s a ls o c a l le d w i th i n t h a t tr a d e
10

a p r o v i s i o n a c c o u n t a n d h o w i t w a s e x p l a in e d i s th a t i f y o u – w h e n a
v e h ic l e is s o l d t o a th ir d p a r ty t h e c o m p a n y s e ll s a v e h ic le to a
c u s t o m e r a p o r ti o n o f t h e p r o f i t is p l a c e d i n to t h e p r o v i s i o n a c c o u n t . I f
s o m e t h i n g h a p p e n s t o t h e v e h i c l e t h e y w o u ld u s e f u n d s fr o m t h e
p r o v i s i o n a l a c c o u n t to d e a l w i th t h a t s p e c i fic v e h i c l e .

W h a t e v e r th e

c a s e m a y b e t h e n fu n d s i f th e r e – if it is – i f i t is n e c e s s a r y t h e n t h e y
w i ll u s e f u n d s f r o m t h a t p r o v i s i o n a c c o u n t .

A f t e r t h e w a r r a n ty o r

w a r r a n ty o r g u a r a n t e e p e r i o d i s o v e r t h a t f u n d s w il l t h e n g o b a c k t o t h e
– i n t o t h e b o o k s a s – a s a p r o f it t o t h e c o m p a n y. I t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y
t o c r e a t e a B e ir u t a c c o u n t .
20

T h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t w a s e x tr a a n d i t w a s

s e p a r a t e fr o m th e p r o v is i o n a c c o u n t .

I t o n l y r e l a te d t o tr a n s a c ti o n s

b e t w e e n C o m p a n y X a n d N is s a n M o t o r s o r A t la n ti s M o to r s a n d b a s e d
o n t h a t a c c o r d in g t o th e te s ti m o n y o f Mr J a n Ve n te r w h o w a s t h e d e a l e r
p r i n c i p a l a t t h e c o m p a n y a p o r t i o n o f t h e p r o fi t o f t h e v e h ic le w a s
p l a c e d i n to t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t a s p a r t o f a b o o k e n t r y. A n d t h a t – a n d
fr o m th a t a m o u n t – t h a t b o o k e n tr y t h e y w o u l d t h e n p a y c e r t a i n

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
in d i v i d u a ls a n d b e n e f i ts to m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: So the – the – would the wrong part be the payment
t o i n d i v i d u a ls o r is th a t s o m e t h in g y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e
w h o le t h i n g o f h a v i n g t h a t a c c o u n t is a ls o ill e g a l o r t h e – o r h a v i n g t h a t
a c c o u n t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n w r o n g b u t i t m i g h t – m a y b e i t is t h e a c t u a l
p a y m e n t s t o i n d i v i d u a ls th a t m a y h a v e b e e n w r o n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t is t h e u s e o f t h e m o n e y

t h a t w a s – t h a t i s w h e r e t h e – th e il l e g a l p a r t i s i n t e r m s o f – in t e r m s
of that fund.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A s I s a id M r Ve n t e r t e s t if i e d i t is

h is f u n d s . H e c a n d o w i t h i t w h a t h e w a n ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e p la c e d it i n to a B e ir u t a c c o u n t

a s p a r t o f a – a s a p o r t i o n o f t h e – t h e – t h e p r o f i t a n d h e is e n ti tl e d t o
u s e th a t m o n e y a s h e – b u t t h e m o n e y w a s u s e d b y – n o t b y h i m h e w a s
in s t r u c t e d b y B a r n a r d a n d b y L a – m a i n l y b y B a r n a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

O n t h e u s e o f t h e fu n d s . I n o th e r

w o r d s t h e y w o u l d t e ll h i m o r h e w o u l d h i m h e w il l b e u s i n g t h e f u n d s f o r
t h is , t h a t a n d th e o t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o w t h i s is w h e r e th is m o n e y

c o m e s fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 52 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h is m o n e y w a s p a i d v i a E F T

t o N e w W o r ld M o t o r s a n d a c c o r d in g t h e a ffi d a v i t fr o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o
h e r e c e i v e d a n e n v e l o p e fr o m C o lo n e l B a r n a r d to th e v a l u e o f
R50 000.00.

H e d o e s n o t k n o w – i t w a s t o l d t o h i m i t c a m e fr o m J a n

Ve n t e r a t A tl a n tis M o t o r s b u t h e d o e s n o t – h e c a n n o t s a y t h a t – h e
c a n n o t – h e c a n n o t v e r i fy t h a t . T h a t is t h e tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t I w a s a b l e
t o v e r i fy a l t h o u g h I d o n o t h a v e t h e l a s t p a r t b e t w e e n N e w W o r l d M o to r s
a n d t h e m o n e y g e t t in g t o G e n e r a l – C o lo n e l B a r n a r d . Th a t is h o w t h is
tr a n s a c ti o n t o o k p l a c e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Having addressed the scheme that

w a s d e v e l o p e d a t A t l a n t is M o t o r s i s i t t o b e u n d e r s to o d t h a t t h i s
s c h e m e w a s th e n b o r n e f r o m t h e s a l e o f v e h ic l e s fr o m A tl a n tis M o t o r s
t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir th a t is w h a t

– w h e n I s a i d t h a t t h e t o t a l – t h e t o ta l a m o u n t o f s a l e s w a s t o t h e – w a s
a n e s t i m a te d R 6 1 m il li o n o v e r t h a t p e r i o d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I w o u ld l ik e t o r e fe r y o u th e n i n t h a t

r e g a r d a l th o u g h w e w i ll a d d r e s s i t a li t t le b i t l a t e r a s w e ll to p a g e 4 2 a t
20

paragraph 138.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir.

I d o s e e it is R 6 9

m il li o n I m a d e a m is t a k e i t is n o t R 6 1 m i l li o n i t is a c t u a ll y R 6 9 m i ll io n
o v e r a p e r i o d o f fo u r y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d I h a v e th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n – I

Page 53 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
r e c e i v e d t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h e g e n e r a l le d g e r d o c u m e n ta t io n fr o m
C o m p a n y X s h o w i n g t h e c o m p le t e v a l u e o f th e tr a n s a c ti o n s r e g a r d in g
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And i t was this separate account

t h e n w h ic h is c a ll e d t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t w h i c h w a s e n t e r e d a n d
a c c o u n t e d fo r a s a jo u r n a l e n t r y i n t o w h i c h t h e s u r p lu s m o n i e s w e r e
paid.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Ye s t h a t is tr u e – t h a t i s tr u e

C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d o n w h o s e in s t r u c t i o n w e r e

m o n i e s p a i d o u t fr o m o r r a t h e r o n w h o s e in s t r u c t i o n w e r e m o n i e s fr o m
t h is a c c o u n t u s e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w a s u s e d i n th e i n s tr u c t io n o f

C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a n d t o a le s s e r e x t e n t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . Ac c o r d in g t o
t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr J a n Ve n te r C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w a s t h e p e r s o n t h a t h e
k n e w a n d t h e p e r s o n t h a t h e in t e r a c t e d w it h . A l t h o u g h h e h a s s p o k e n
to – he has met General Lazarus.

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a s b e e n to h is

o ffic e a n d t h e y h a v e – a n d c e r t a in b e n e fi ts d i d g o t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
20

w h ic h i s p a r t o f t h a t s p e c i f ic m a t te r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o t h e u s e o f th is – o f th e s e

m o n i e s w e r e p a i d to t h ir d p a r t i e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Some of whom or some of whom

w e r e o u t s i d e t h e C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e D e p a r t m e n t?

Page 54 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i f I c o u ld th e n t a k e y o u b a c k t o

p a g e 3 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u r e fe r t o th e R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w h ic h w a s
d o n a te d b y A t l a n t is M o t o r s v i a B e ir u t a c c o u n t . Is t h is t h e n o n e o f t h e
t h ir d p a r t ie s t o w h o m t h i s m o n e y w a s p a id ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a c c o r d i n g to

– a c c o r d i n g t o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t I h a v e d o n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

H o w w a s t h e R 6 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 r e f e r r e d to

o r r a th e r y o u r e v i d e n c e is th a t t h e t o ta l c o s t w a s R 11 0 0 0 0 .0 0 o f w h ic h
10

R 6 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s p a i d w i t h th e u s e o f S S A f u n d s .

R50 000.00 was

tr a n s fe r r e d o r a s y o u h a v e r e c o r d e d i t d o n a t e d b y A t l a n t is M o t o r s v ia
t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
H o w w a s t h e R 6 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 o b t a in e d

fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t , d o y o u k n o w t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Ye s I d o .

I th i n k I d i d t e s ti f y

a b o u t i t e a r l i e r. I t w a s – i t w a s a c l a i m f i r s t in a d v a n c e I a m n o t s u r e
w h e t h e r I h a v e e x p la in e d h o w y o u w o u l d r e c e iv e c a s h f r o m C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w h e n y o u d o a n a c t u a l tr a n s a c ti o n .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

No you have not. Please do.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B e c a u s e o f t h e a m o u n ts i n v o l v e d

t h e in d i v i d u a ls fr o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e , t h e p o l ic e o ff ic e r s th e y w o u ld
n o t h a v e th a t k i n d o f c a s h . S o th e r e is a s y s te m i n p la c e b u t n o t o n l y
t h r o u g h t h e C r i m e – n o t o n ly th r o u g h t h e S S A a c c o u n t b u t a l s o t h r o u g h
t h e O p e n a c c o u n t th a t y o u c a n d r a w i n a d v a n c e b e f o r e y o u le a v e f o r a

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
tr i p f o r in s t a n c e .

W h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t C o lo n e l N a i d o o d r e w a n

a d v a n c e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e a ir t ic k e t w h ic h h e is n o w s u p p o s e d to
p a y i n g . H e t h e n w o u l d t a k e t h a t a d v a n c e , t h e c a s h h e w o u l d g o to th e
c o m p a n y in v o lv e d , b u y t h e a ir t ic k e t a n d if t h e r e i s a n y m o n e y t h a t i s
s u p p o s e d to g o b a c k t o th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e Ac c o u n t h e w o u ld t h e n p a y
t h a t b a c k t o g e t h e r w i th t h e i n v o ic e t h a t w i ll c a n c e l o u t th e a d v a n c e
p a y m e n t . S o th a t is – th a t is h o w t h is w o u l d w o r k . In r e s p e c t o f th is
t h is is e x a c tly w h a t h a p p e n e d h e r e .

Colonel Naidoo went, took an

a d v a n c e , w e n t th e c o m p a n y, b o o k e d a ti c k e t a n d th e n = a n d t h e n l a t e r
10

o n h e – h e p u t a n a p p li c a t io n f o r t h e – f o r t h e e x p e n d i t u r e . I t h i n k i n
t h is in s ta n c e n o m o n ie s w a s p a i d b a c k to t h e S S A . I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e
– t h e a d d i t io n a l a m o u n t th a t w a s n o t u s e d w a s g iv e n t o G e n e r a l M d l u li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o y o u d i d s a y t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u li h a d p u t i n a
le a v e a p p lic a ti o n o r h e o b ta in e d l e a v e ?

O r d id I m i s u n d e r s t a n d t h a t

part?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is …

CHAIRPERSON: Or he did not?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th e l e a v e

was signed by General Dramat.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w a t a n o ff ic i a l l e v e l w o u l d n o t t h e f a c t t h a t
h e t o o k t h is m o n e y i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e p a p e r w o r k in d ic a t e d h e
w a s n o t o n o ffi c i a l d u t y w o u l d it n o t r a i s e q u e s ti o n s a s t o w h y h e to o k
that money if he was on leave?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a n d I – y e s i t w o u l d a n d I

t h i n k t h i s is w h e r e th e – t h is is w h e r e s m o k e a n d m ir r o r s s ta r t s t o p l a y

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a p a r t. Th e m o n e y w a s n o t – w a s n o t – t h e r e w a s n o t a n a d v a n c e o n
h is n a m e . I t w a s i n t h e n a m e o f C o lo n e l N a i d o o . S o t h e r e is n o th i n g
ty in g h i m t o th e e x p e n d i t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w a s ti e d t o C o lo n e l N a id o o a n d

h e h a d t o d e a l w i th th a t e x p e n d it u r e a n d – a n d t h a t is w h y h e w o u ld n o t
– th a t w o u ld n o t r a is e t h e fl a g i n r e s p e c t o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h e n a n
in t e r n a l a u d i t h a d to b e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h a n d a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n C o l o n e l

Naidoo knew the whole scheme?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a c c o r d i n g to

him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c c o r d in g to h i m .
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

A n d in t e r m s o f th e c o r r o b o r a ti o n

t h a t I c o u ld – w a s f o r m e p o s s ib le t o f i n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d f i n d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w o u ld t h e n i n d ic a t e th a t

C o l o n e l N a i d o o a t l e a s t i n s o m e o f th o s e r e s p e c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

In terms of the corroboration is

a c t u a ll y t e l li n g t h e t r u t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u u n d e r s t a n d fr o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o w h y h e

w o u ld a l l o w a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e p a p e r w o r k w o u ld p o i n t to h i m h a v i n g
t a k e n t h e m o n e y w h e n a c t u a l ly it w a s t a k e n b y M d lu li w h y h e w o u l d
a l lo w th a t to h a p p e n ?

Page 57 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir o n c e a g a i n i t p o in ts – i t

g o e s b a c k t o t h e s c e n a r i o w h e r e p e o p le a r e b e i n g u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C o l o n e l N a id o o r e c e iv e d a – h e

w a s – h e w a s a p p o i n te d a s a L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l w i t h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h ic h w a s a n ir r e g u l a r a p p o in t m e n t .

H e a ls o

u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t. T h e r e i s u n d e r t h o s e c i r c u m s ta n c e s h e is n o t g o i n g to
– h e i s n o t g o i n g t o q u e s t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d i n s tr u c ti o n l ik e t h a t .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h a t is e x a c tl y th e r e a s o n

w h e n I s p o k e a b o u t t h e o p e r a ti o n a l te a m o r o p e r a t i o n a l u n i t w i th i n t h e
S S A . T h a t is w h a t t h o s e i n d iv i d u a l s w e r e u s e d f o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So they were part and parcel and

t h is – th is p l a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

A n d t h e y w e r e a ll i n a s it u a ti o n

w h e r e th e y c o u l d n o t a c t u a ll y s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t o n e a n o t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O n p a g e 4 0 y o u d e a l w i t h th e n e x t

tr i p t h a t R ic h a r d – G e n e r a l R i c h a r d M d l u l i a n d h is f a m ily b e n e f i t te d
fr o m . C a n y o u p l e a s e g iv e u s d e t a il s i n r e l a ti o n t o i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h e s e c o n d tr i p t h a t I a m –

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h a t I a m r e fe r r i n g to is a ls o o n t h e b a c k o f t h e i n fo r m a t i o n g iv e n to m e
b y C o lo n e l N a i d o o . I n th a t – in t h a t I w a s a b l e t o e s ta b lis h th a t t h e r e
w a s i n d e e d a tr ip t o S in g a p o r e b e t w e e n 2 1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d 2 8
N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . T h a t i s s ix d a y s a f t e r r e t u r n i n g f r o m C h i n a . I a m n o w
r e fe r r i n g t o G e n e r a l M d lu li .

In t h is in s ta n c e G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s c u r r e n t

w i f e w h ic h is M s L y o n s s h e a c c o m p a n i e d h i m to S i n g a p o r e . A t t h e t i m e
she was not a member of SAPS. She was a clerk at the Department of
H o m e A ff a i r s .

T h e tr a v e l c o s t in r e s p e c t o f Ms Ly o n s w a s fu n d e d

t h r o u g h th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t a n d h e t ic k e t w a s u p g r a d e d fr o m
10

e c o n o m y c l a s s t o b u s i n e s s c l a s s a n d t h e t o ta l c o s t f o r t h a t a ir ti c k e t
w a s R 4 6 8 0 9 . 0 0 . I n r e s p e c t o f b o t h o f t h e s e – th e s e t r i p s w h ic h I h a v e
n o w j u s t d is c u s s e d w e h a v e i n v e s ti g a t e d th is q u it e e x te n s iv e l y.

I t is

p a r t o f a c h a r g e s h e e t t h a t is – t h a t is s t ill n o t b e f o r e c o u r t – a c a s e
t h a t is n o t – s t il l n o t b e fo r e c o u r t b e c a u s e o f t h e fa c t t h a t w e c a n n o t
u til is e t h e c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts i n m y p o s s e s s i o n . F o r t h i s t o c o n ti n u e
f u r th e r o r t o g o fu r t h e r i t n e e d s t o b e d e c la s s i f ie d . I c a n n o t o n l y r e ly
o n d o c u m e n ta t io n fr o m s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r s b e c a u s e w h a t is i m p o r ta n t
h e r e is t h e r e a s o n s g iv e n f o r t h e a c tu a l e x p e n d it u r e w h ic h a s f a r a s I
a m c o n c e r n e d i s f r a u d u le n t i n n a t u r e . I t i s a m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

H o w w a s t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s F u n d s

t h e n u n l a w f u l ly o r il le g a l ly s p e n t i n r e l a t io n to t h is tr i p f o l lo w in g t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n th a t y o u c o n d u c t e d ?
MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

in

respect

of

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h e in f o r m a t io n g iv e n t o m e b y C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h e r e
w a s a t le a s t n i n e p e o p l e o n t h is s p e c i fic tr i p . I t w a s C o l o n e l B a r n a r d

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a n d h i s w i fe , C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ’s w i f e ’s a ir t ic k e t w a s p a i d fo r h i m – w a s
paid by him.

It w a s n o t p a id t h r o u g h t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t .

The…
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o C o l o n e l B a r n a r d p a i d fo r h i s

w i f e ’s tic k e t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e p a i d fo r h i s w i fe ’s ti c k e t. T h e

s a m e a p p l i e s t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h e p a i d f o r h is w i fe ’s ti c k e t .

In this

regard…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y h a v e y o u m o v e d t o a n o th e r tr i p ?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a i r. I t i s …

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s t il l o n th e s a m e tr i p ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

I am just explaining the –

C h a ir I a m j u s t e x p la i n i n g t h e p e o p le t h a t w e n t w i t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h e r e a s o n s w h y. I n r e s p e c t

o f a – t w o o th e r i n d iv i d u a ls C o l o n e l Ve n te r, C o l o n e l N a i d o o w h o h i ms e lf
w e n t o n th e tr i p . T h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n f o r th e m t o g o o n th e tr i p . Th e y
c o u l d n o t a d d a n y v a lu e a n d th a t i s a c c o r d in g to C o l o n e l N a id o o
20

h i m s e l f . Th e q u e s ti o n r e g a r d in g M s Ly o n s a c c o r d in g t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o
s h e w a s th e g ir l fr i e n d o f G e n e r a l M d l u li a t t h e t i m e .

They were not

m a r r i e d y e t a n d t h a t is th e r e a s o n w h y s h e a c c o m p a n i e d th e m o n t h e
tr i p . T h e r e w a s n o o t h e r r e a s o n f o r h e r t o a c c o m p a n y th e m . S h e d i d
n o t a d d v a l u e t o th e tr ip .

S o in t h a t r e g a r d t h e m o tiv a ti o n fo r t h e ir

p a r t ic ip a n ts – p a r t ic ip a ti o n w a s m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e e m p lo y e r.

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T h i s – t h i s s p e c i fic tr ip w a s a p p r o v e d t h r o u g h t h e c o r r e c t c h a n n e l s ,
w e n t t h r o u g h t o th e c o m m i s s i o n e r ’s o ffic e , w a s r e c o m m e n d e d a n d w a s
a p p r o v e d b y t h e M i n i s t e r.

S o t h e a c tu a l tr i p , o ffic ia l tr i p th e r e w a s

n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h i t; i t w a s a b o u t t h e p e o p le th a t a c c o m p a n ie d t h e m
a n d th e r e a s o n s g iv e n a s t o w h y t h e y s h o u ld a c c o m p a n y th e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e – in t e r m s o f t h e o ff ic ia l – s o in t e r m s o f

p a p e r w o r k a l l t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e o n t h e tr ip w e r e r e f le c t e d o n t h e –
o n p a p e r w o r k b u t t h e r e a s o n g i v e n to – t h e r e a s o n s g iv e n t o j u s ti fy
t h e ir b e in g p a r t o f t h e t r i p w e r e fa ls e , is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir n o t …

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w e r e n o t ju s t i fi a b l e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir n o t a l l o f t h e m .

It was

s e p a r a t e tr a n s a c t i o n s w h e n i t c a m e t o G e n e r a l B a r n a r d a n d G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s i n t e r m s o f t h e ir s p o u s e s . S o th a t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e –
w i t h t h e e x p e n d i t u r e in t e r m s o f t h e S S A .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I a m t a lk in g a b o u t t h e e x p e n d i t u r e

r e l a ti n g t o M s Ly o n s , Ve n t e r a n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t t h a t t r i p t o – t o S in g a p o r e – th a t o n e y o u
20

s a i d i t w a s o ff ic ia l , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Hm?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s o ff ic ia l – i t w a s j u s t t h e p a r t ic u l a r in d iv i d u a ls .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s a n d th e r e a s o n g i v e n .

Page 61 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a s o n s g iv e n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

For them to – to go with.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

We

now

turn

to

the

t e n th

in v e s t i g a t io n th a t y o u h a v e h i g h l ig h t e d t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h ic h i s
r e fl e c t e d fr o m p a g e 4 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
p r o m o ti o n s

and

a p p o i n t m e n ts

of

I t is ti tl e d G e n e r a l M d l u li

fa m i ly

and

fr ie n d s

to

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e . H o w d i d y o u l e a r n a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e – I a m s o r r y le t u s – l e t m e j u s t g o b a c k . Yo u
10

s a i d t h a t t h e c a s e s th a t is i n r e g a r d to t h e tr ip th a t w e h a v e ju s t
fi n i s h e d d is c u s s i n g w a s t h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e c a s e h a s n o t
m o v e d t o fi n a li t y b e c a u s e c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e
c a s e h a v e n o t b e e n d e c l a s s i fi e d , is th a t r i g h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h is is p a r t
o f t h e - o f t h e c o m p r e h e n s iv e - t h e s e t w o a ll e g a ti o n s a r e p a r t o f a
c o m p r e h e n s iv e c h a r t s h e e t t h a t w a s d r a w n u p .

U n f o r tu n a te ly w e

c a n n o t r e ly o n s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h is m e n t io n e d i n t h e
c h a r g e s h e e t b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t th e d o c u m e n ts a r e s ti ll c l a s s i fi e d .
S o w e c a n n o t g o t o c o u r t w i t h - w e c a n n o t - d e f e n c e c a n n o t d is c o v e r
20

the documents.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e s e a r e 2 0 0 9 tr i p s th a t m a k e s th e m 1 0 y e a r s

old?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now when - when - how long ago were the cases

s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n h a d if t h e r e h a d b e e n n o p r o b l e m a b o u t la c k o f

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n ? I f y o u a r e a b le t o r e m e m b e r.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir t o c o m e b a c k t o th e s p e c i fic
c a s e w h ic h I - w h i c h f a l ls u n d e r t h e - t h e l o o t in g o f t h e S S A a c c o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e s p e c i fi c d o c k e t w a s o p e n e d i n
- i n 2 0 11 …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B u t i t d i d n o t c o n t a i n a ll t h e

a l le g a ti o n s b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e I d id n o t - h a v e n o t s p o k e n t o - to
10

Colonel Naidoo.

L a t e r o n w h e n w e s p o k e t o h i m f u r t h e r a ll e g a t io n s

were made …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d b a s e d o n th a t s o m e o f t h o s e

a l le g a ti o n s w e r e - w e w e r e a b l e to - to f i n a li s e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n t o
t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e y w e r e a d d e d t o t h a t s p e c i f ic

m a t t e r. T h e c a s e - t h e S S A l o o t in g o f th e - lo o ti n g o f t h e S S A F u n d a n d
it w a s s u p p o s e d to in t e r m s o f t h e j u d g m e n t b y t h e S C A t o b e p l a c e d
20

b a c k o n t h e r o ll . I t w a s p la c e d b a c k o n th e r o ll . I t h a d to b e w i th d r a w n
a g a in b e c a u s e w e w e r e n o t a b le to s u p p ly t h e d e f e n c e w i t h t h e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n b e c a u s e th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w a s n o t d e c l a s s i fi e d a s - a s
w a s r e q u e s te d fr o m S A P S .
CHAIRPERSON: What was the issue that had gone to the SCA - but it
w a s n o t a b o u t f o r c i n g th e r e l e v a n t a u th o r it i e s t o d e c la s s if y t h e

Page 63 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
about that no.

No.

That was not - that was not

T h a t o n ly c a m e a b o u t l a t e r a n d I t h i n k it i s - i t i s a

m a t t e r b e t w e e n th e I P I D a n d th e S o u th A f r ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e in c a s e s
t h a t t h e y h a v e u n c o v e r e d . Th e y a r e s i t ti n g w i t h e x a c tl y t h e s a m e - t h e
s a m e p r o b le m .
S A P S d o n o t w a n t t o d e c l a s s i fy t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t is
n e e d e d f o r th e c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d I t h in k o n th e b a c k o f th e
e x p e r i e n c e s th a t I h a d t h e y d e c i d e d t o f o l lo w t h e r o u t e th r o u g h t h e
10

court system.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o I - s o th e r e is p e n d i n g li t ig a ti o n t o - t o c o m p e l
w h o e v e r i s s u p p o s e d t o b e c o m p e l le d t o d e c l a s s i fy t h e d o c u m e n t s s o
t h a t th a t - th a t i s u n d e r w a y o r w h a t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r th a t i s i n te r ms o f th e - t h a t
is i n t e r m s o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s t h a t - t h a t I P I D a r e c o n d u c t i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W h i c h d o e s n o t - a l th o u g h t h i s

m a t t e r f a ll s w i t h i n t h e p u r v i e w a t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e w i t h - w it h - a t t h e
IPID and the ID.
20

Th is - t h e a p p l ic a t i o n t h a t w e n t t o c o u r t r e la t e d t o

a n o t h e r i n v e s ti g a t i o n w i t h i n - w i t h i n I P I D …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B u t I p r e s u m e i t w i ll h a v e a n e ff e c t
o n t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n a s w e ll w h e n - w h e n t h a t li ti g a ti o n is fi n i s h e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Well I - I would not know at what stage your

Page 64 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
in s t i tu t io n w o u l d h a n d o v e r m a t t e r s o r w o u l d - t o t h e N PA o r w o u l d
in v o k e t h e a s s is t a n c e o f t h e N PA b u t i t j u s t s e e m s to m e t h a t - th a t
t h e r e w o u l d n o t b e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e a m a t t e r i s d r a g g i n g o n f o r 1 0
y e a r s b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y is n o d e c l a s s i fy i n g d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e
i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e m a t t e r.
I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i f th e r e a r e n o o t h e r w a y s o f d e a li n g w i t h
t h e m a t t e r. C o u r t s s h o u ld b e a p p r o a c h e d b e c a u s e th e n th e y c a n d e a l
w i t h th e q u e s t io n w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e p r o p e r g r o u n d s t o r e fu s e t o
d e c l a s s i fy.
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I - I a g r e e b u t u n f o r tu n a te ly
I a m - I a m s ti ll w i t h i n t h e S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o th e S A P S - I d o n o t t h in k t h e

S A P S is g o i n g t o t a k e t h e S A P S t o c o u r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . I u n d e r s t a n d th a t. T h a t is w h y I a m - I a m
b r i n g i n g i n t h e is s u e o f th e N PA . Th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g I d o n o t k n o w
a t w h a t s ta g e y o u w o u l d h a n d o v e r m a t te r s t o t h e N PA o r i f y o u a r e
f a c e d w i th a s i tu a ti o n lik e t h a t a n d y o u fe e l t h a t m a y b e t h e N PA a s t h e
p r o s e c u t i n g a u t h o r i ty s h o u ld s e e w h e t h e r t h e y w o u l d n o t g o to c o u r t
20

w h e t h e r th e y - t h e y w o u ld n o t b e t h e p e o p l e t o - t o a s k t o g o t o c o u r t
b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e y o u c o u ld e a s il y h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o is a c t u a l ly w h o
- w h o fr a u d u le n tl y c la s s i f ie d d o c u m e n t s t h a t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n
c la s s if i e d a n d is - m a y h a v e c la s s i f ie d th e m fo r il le g a l p u r p o s e s a n d a n d th e n th e r e is n o a c c o u n t a b il it y.
T h e y a r e n o t c h a r g e d b e c a u s e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s a r e c r it ic a l

Page 65 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a n d th e y j u s t s a y n o w e a r e n o t d e c l a s s i fy i n g t h e m a n d t h e y m i g h t h a v e
a b s o l u t e ly n o - n o l e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n to r e f u s e to d e c l a s s if y t h e m a n d i t
is u n t e n a b l e i f a m a t t e r th a t s h o u ld h a v e g o n e t o c o u r t m a y b e fiv e
y e a r s a g o m i g h t s ti ll ju s t b e li n g e r i n g b e c a u s e t h e r e is t h is is s u e y o u
k n o w. Yo u - y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h e r e I a m c o m i n g fr o m ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e i n g in th e S A P S y o u - y o u m i g h t u n d e r s t a n d c e r ta in
things that I might not understand but where - where I am is
in t o l e r a b l e .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i f I m a y I a g r e e f u l ly w i t h

what you said.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Yo u w il l s e e l a t e r o n in t h e

a ffi d a v i t I d e a l w i th h o w w e tr ie d to g e t t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n d e c l a s s if i e d
a n d th e e ffo r t s t h a t w e p u t i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

To g e t h e r fr o m S A P S s i d e a s w e ll

a s th e N PA’s s i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S h o r t o f g o i n g t o c o u r t t o fo r c e t h e
S A P S t o - to m a k e a d e c is i o n o n t h i s m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o - a n d y o u w il l - I a m - in a l l

h o n e s ty I h a v e s o m e ti m e s f e lt li k e t h e v i ll a g e i d i o t r u n n i n g fr o m b r i c k o r
r u n n in g i n t o t h is b r ic k w a l l a n d i n to t h e n e x t b r i c k w a ll …

Page 66 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B e c a u s e th e r e w a s o n ly o n c e t h a t
I a m a w a r e o f th a t t h e r e w a s a - a d e fi n it e n o w e w i ll n o t d e c l a s s i fy
fr o m t h e S A P S ’ s i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A ll t h e o t h e r s w e r e y e s g iv e u s t h e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n . W e w i ll l o o k a t i t a n d t h e n y o u f in d y o u r s e l f s ix m o n th s
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S i x m o n t h s t o a y e a r d o w n th e l in e
a n d th e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

No I do not know what you are

t a lk in g a b o u t a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d t h e n - t h e n th e r e i s a c h a n g e
of command.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o t h a t is t h e k i n d o f s c e n a r i o t h a t
20

h a s t a k e n p l a c e o v e r t h e y e a r s w h ic h I d e e m a s - i t w a s d o n e
d e li b e r a t e ly a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

With

d e c l a s s i fy in g th e d o c u m e n ts b u t t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 67 of 134

th e

view

of

-

of

not

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t w i ll - i t c o m e s o u t l a t e r in - in
m y t e s t i m o n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm, hm.

O k a y.

I think you - the legal team must

a p p ly t h e ir m i n d s t o t h is k in d o f i s s u e b e c a u s e i f a m a t t e r r e la t e s to
s o m e t h i n g t h a t is r e l e v a n t fo r o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e - w e h a v e a n
in t e r e s t i n s e e i n g th o s e d o c u m e n t s fo r p u r p o s e s o f a n y i s s u e s o f
c o r r u p ti o n t h a t w e m a y b e l o o k i n g a t .

S o t h e l e g a l t e a m m u s t a p p ly

t h e ir m in d s t o - t o t h a t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
could proceed then.

A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir.

W il l d o .

If we

O n p a g e 4 0 M r R o e lo fs e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e 1 0 t h

in v e s t i g a t io n w h ic h is G e n e r a l M d l u li a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d - p r o m o ti o n s
a n d a p p o in t m e n ts o f fa m i ly a n d f r i e n d s t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e . H o w d i d
y o u l e a r n o f t h is i n fo r m a ti o n a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t d i d y o u v e r i fy it ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r p e r s o n I le a r n t o f t h i s a l s o

t h r o u g h C o l o n e l N a id o o . C o lo n e l N a i d o o i n h is - w h a t h e h a s i n f o r m e d
m e is th a t h e r e c e i v e d a l is t o f n a m e s w h i c h in c l u d e d f a m il y a n d fr i e n d s
o f G e n e r a l M d l u li .
20

H e w a s t h e n t o ld t h a t h e w il l b e h a n d li n g t h o s e

a g e n ts a n d - a n d b a s e d o n t h a t o n t h e b a c k o f h i s i n f o r m a ti o n I w a s
a b l e to e s ta b lis h t h a t a s fr o m F M 2 4 t o F M 2 9 f i t t h a t c a t e g o r y o f f a m il y
a n d fr i e n d s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And once again …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y … ? S o r r y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y.

Page 68 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: FM24 to FM29?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d o n c e a g a i n t h is ta b l e i s n o

d i ff e r e n t t o t h e p r e v io u s t a b le s y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o w h ic h c o n c e r n s
a p p o i n t m e n ts o f - a n d t h e p r o m o ti o n s o f f a m il y a n d f r i e n d s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

By way of example can I ask you to

a d d r e s s li n e i t e m 2 p le a s e o n t a b l e 5 p a g e 4 0 .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It is a m e m b e r th a t is s t il l a c tiv e .

T h e a p p o in t m e n t r a n k i n S A P S - in o t h e r w o r d s th is p e r s o n w a s i n - w a s
in S A P S p r io r t o t h e - h i s o r h e r a p p o i n t m e n t .
Constable.

The rank was a

H e r l e v e l w a s fiv e a n d o n 1 J u n e 2 0 1 0 th is p e r s o n w a s

a p p o i n t e d a s a L ie u t e n a n t - C o lo n e l a t a l e v e l o f 1 0 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t i s t h e n a d i ff e r e n c e o f fiv e

ranks?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - fi v e le v e ls y e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Fi v e le v e ls , s o r r y.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 4 1

a n d p l e a s e a d d r e s s l in e i t e m w h i c h s t a r ts w i t h F M 2 9 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h is is a - a s I s a i d t h is is

t h e s a m e a s t h e o t h e r s . T h is p e r s o n is s t ill i n S A P S . A c c o r d i n g t o m y
v e r i fic a ti o n t o j u s t p r i o r t o f i n a li s i n g m y a ffi d a v i t .

This person was a

c iv ili a n . A p p o i n t e d o n 1 J u n e 2 0 1 0 a n d a p p o i n t e d o n a L e v e l 8 w h ic h i s

Page 69 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r a t t h e t i m e - w h ic h is a Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e r e f o r e y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s

r e v e a l e d t h a t i t w a s a d ir e c t a p p o i n t m e n t t o a L e v e l 8 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e l a s t in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t y o u p la c e d
b e f o r e t h i s C o m m is s i o n r e l a t e s t o A t la n ti s M o t o r s w h ic h y o u h a v e
a lr e a d y g iv e n e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I j u s t m a y
in t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 1 th e t a b l e in 1 3 2 I h a v e t e s t if i e d e a r li e r
10

r e g a r d in g C o l o n e l N a id o o a n d t h e p r o d u c ti o n f il e s . T h is is e x a c t ly t h e
s a m e a s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d h e r e . I n t h i s s p e c i f ic in s t a n c e h e w a s t h e
h a n d l e r. H e h a d n o p r o d u c t io n fi le s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d lik e w is e j u s t t o c o m p le t e t h a t

s e c t io n t h i s p r o c e s s w a s r e l a ti n g t o t h e 2 5 0 a p p o in t m e n t p r o c e s s in
2010?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so at page 41 where you deal

w i t h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n w h ic h y o u h a v e t i t le d “ A t l a n tis M o t o r s ” a n d t o
w h ic h y o u h a v e a l r e a d y e v id e n c e l e t u s d e a l w i t h th a t p a r t s w h ic h y o u
20

have not addressed as yet.

Yo u h a v e a l r e a d y g iv e n e v i d e n c e th a t a

M r J a n Ve n t e r w a s t h e p r i n c i p a l d e a l e r o f A t la n ti s - o f A t l a n t is M o to r s in
Centurion?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What

i n f o r m a ti o n

did

Mr Ve n t e r

p r o v i d e t o y o u r e g a r d i n g t h e b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n A t la n ti s

Page 70 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
Motors and Company X?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

M r Ve n t e r p r o v i d e d m e w i t h t h e -

w i t h d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h s e e k s t o s u b s t a n t ia t e w h a t h e is - w h a t h e
a l le g e s i n t e r m s o f w h e r e a n d t o w h o m p a y m e n t t o o k p la c e .

He

p r o v i d e d m e w it h a c o p y o f t h e g e n e r a l l e d g e r a c c o u n t r e f le c t i n g
B e ir u t ( ? ) a n d b a s e d o n th a t tr a n s a c t i o n s o r b a s e d o n t h a t a c c o u n t w e
w e r e a b l e t o id e n ti fy t h a t - a s t h e t r a n s a c t io n s w e r e o n ly a v a il a b l e
a l t h o u g h t h i s a c c o u n t e x i t e d b e f o r e 8 A p r il 2 0 0 8 .
H e o n ly h a d r e c o r d s a s fr o m 1 A p r il 2 0 0 8 a n d o n t h a t d a y a n
10

a m o u n t o f R 1 7 5 0 4 0 , 0 0 - R 1 7 5 0 4 5 ,1 5 r e f le c t e d o n t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t
a s a v a il a b l e a n d t h e n in t h e p e r i o d - i n t h e p e r i o d 8 A p r il 2 0 0 8 t o
1 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 a n a d d i ti o n a l a m o u n t o f R 1 5 2 7 6 0 1 , 6 1 a m o u n t w a s
a l lo c a t e d t o t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t fo r t h e u s e o f m e m b e r s o f C I a n d - a n d
f o r t h e u s e in t e r m s o f th e ir b e n e f i t a n d t h i r d p a r t ie s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y.

D id M r Ve n t e r p r o v i d e y o u

w i t h a n y in f o r m a t io n i n r e g a r d i n g h o w th is B e ir u t a c c o u n t w a s c r e a te d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair he did.

I w o u l d li k e t o

e x p l a i n t h e n a m e B e ir u t b u t u n fo r t u n a t e ly t h a t w i ll - t h a t w i ll p u t
Company X at risk.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o I a m n o t g o in g t o e x p l a i n t h e t h e n a m e - t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B u t t h e a c c o u n t i ts e l f t h e n a m e i s
d ir e c t ly r e l a te d to C o m p a n y X .

Page 71 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n ta k e y o u b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h

1 3 4 y o u e x p la in s o m e m o r e d e t a i ls a s t o h o w t h e a c c o u n t w a s c r e a te d .
Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e e la b o r a t e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It w a s - a c c o r d in g to M r Ve n t e r i t

w a s c r e a t e d in 1 9 9 4 a n d h e b e c a m e a w a r e o f C o m p a n y X a n d t h e r o l e
t h a t C o m p a n y X p l a y s w i th i n th e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e e n v ir o n m e n t.
10

He

became friends with Colonel Barnard and then in 2006 - according to
M r Ve n t e r in 2 0 0 6 / 2 0 0 7 h e a p p r o a c h e d h i m w i t h a n i d e a t o c r e a t e a n
a l t e r n a t iv e a c c o u n t w h ic h c o u l d b e o p e r a t e d o u t s i d e t h e a m b i t o f t h e
S S A a c c o u n t a n d w h ic h h e a g r e e d t o a t t h e ti m e .
H e t h o u g h t a t t h e t i m e t h a t h e - h e c o u l d p l a y a r o l e in t h e
c o m b a t ti n g o f - o f c r i m e . H e s u b s e q u e n t l y r e a li s e d th a t i t w a s - i t w a s
n o t b e in g u s e d a s e n v i s a g e d b u t to t h e b e n e fi t o f c e r ta in p o li c e
o ffic i a ls . A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e h e w a s n o t i n a p o s i t io n to g e t o u t o f it
b e c a u s e h i s c o m p a n y w a s b e n e fi t ti n g f r o m - f r o m t h e tr a n s a c t i o n s fr o m t h e t u r n o v e r in t e r m s o f t h e s a le s o f c a r s .

20

S o h e h a d t o k e e p t h e b u s in e s s a n d h e te s t if i e d a s m u c h i n in t h e h e a r i n g o r i n th e tr i a l. H e …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And when you explained - sorry I did
not mean to interrupt you yet.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o th a t is fi n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n y o u g a v e e v id e n c e e a r l i e r y o u

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
e x p l a i n e d a b o u t t h e s c h e m e o f o p e r a ti o n o n - o f th e - t h e B e ir u t
account?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i t w a s a ls o y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t

c e r t a i n th ir d p a r ti e s h a d b e n e fi t t e d fr o m t h a t a c c o u n t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n e o f w h ic h r e l a t e d t o t h e b e n e fi t o f
R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 o n t h e t r i p t o C h i n a b y G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d fa m i ly ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 0 o n p a g e 4 2 y o u t a lk
t o o t h e r t h i r d p a r t i e s th a t y o u e s t a b li s h e d b e n e fi t te d …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Fr o m t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n y o u p l e a s e p r o v i d e t h e C h a ir

w i t h d e t a il s o f y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir b e f o r e I - b e f o r e I d o s o I

ju s t w is h to - to m e n t i o n t h a t t h e i n v e s t i g a ti o n i n to A t l a n t is M o t o r s d id
n o t o r i g in a te fr o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
20

It originated from the search and

s e i z u r e t h a t w e h a d a n d I d i d l o o k a t t h e d a te .

I t w a s 1 5 A p r i l 2 0 11

w h e n w e d i d t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e a t t h e h o u s e o f - o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i
in - i n C a p e To w n . I t e m a n a t e d fr o m t h a t .
B a s e d o n t h a t w e w e r e a b l e t h r o u g h M r J a n Ve n te r t o
e s t a b li s h v a r i o u s tr a n s a c t io n s t h a t t o o k p l a c e . C o l o n e l N a id o o ’s r o l e i n
t h is i n v e s ti g a t i o n r e g a r d i n g A t l a n t is M o t o r s h e c o n t r i b u t e d to t h e f a c t

Page 73 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h a t t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t h e k n e w o f a n d t h a t h e w a s
p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f - i n w h i c h h e p la y e d a r o l e .
S o h e h i g h l ig h t e d c e r t a i n e v e n t s f o r u s b u t i n t h e m a i n th is
in v e s t i g a t io n w a s d o n e w i t h o u t - w a s d o n e e v e n b e f o r e I g o t t o k n o w
h i m . I n r e s p e c t o f t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t i f I c a n c o m e b a c k t o t h a t . Th is
is n o t a n e x te n s iv e lis t . I a m j u s t h ig h li g h ti n g a f e w o f th o s e - o f t h o s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s . T h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t i n c l u d e d a t o ta l a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a i d
to

New

World

Motors

via

an

e l e c tr o n ic

tr a n s f e r

of

460 000

-

R 4 6 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 .
This

10

-

as

far

as

I

am

concerned

t h is

c o n fir m s

C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s a s s e r t io n th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d t o c r e a te c a s h i n
o r d e r t o c o v e r i n te r a li a t h e s h o r t f a l ls …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r R o e l o fs e . W h e r e a r e y o u r e a d i n g fr o m ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : 1 4 0 .1 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . O h , j a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It

c o n fir m s

th e

a s s e r ti o n

by

C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d t o c r e a te c a s h i n o r d e r t o
c o v e r in t e r a l i a th e s h o r t fa ll s i n th e S S A a c c o u n t. C o lo n e l N a i d o o w a s
n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e s e tr a n s a c t i o n s to o k p la c e in t h i s m a n n e r. T h a t w a s 20

w e f o u n d th a t o u t s e p a r a t e ly.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d h o w d i d y o u e s t a b li s h th is

detail?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h is

detail

was

e s t a b l is h e d

t h r o u g h b a n k a c c o u n ts th a t w e h a v e s u b p o e n a e d a n d t h e - a n d t h e
a u d it o f t h o s e a c c o u n t s w h e r e w e a r e a b l e t o e s ta b lis h t h e s e tr a n s fe r s

Page 74 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
that took place.

T h e s e c o n d i n s t a n c e t h a t w e - th a t w e w e r e a b l e t o

uncover was an amount of R143 621,78.
I t w a s p a i d t o - it w a s p a i d fr o m t h e A t l a n t is M o t o r s b u s i n e s s
account to

WesBank

Ve h i c l e

Fi n a n c e A c c o u n t i n

the

s e t tl e m e n t

a g r e e m e n t o f a v e h i c l e r e g is t e r e d i n th e n a m e o f M s R a n j e n i M u n u s a my
a n d a s f a r a s I k n o w s h e is a j o u r n a lis t .

T h i s a m o u n t r e f l e c te d a s

r e c e i v e d - r e fl e c t e d a s r e c e iv e d o n th e s a m e d a t e i n t h e W e s B a n k WesBank

Ve h ic l e

Fi n a n c e

Ac c o u n t

held

in

the

name

of

R a n je n i M u n u s a m y.
T h i s a m o u n t w a s d e b i t e d - d e b i t e d a g a i n s t A t l a n t is M o to r s

10

B e ir u t a c c o u n t o n 3 0 J u ly 2 0 0 8 .

In other words what had happened

h e r e a c c o r d i n g t o Mr Ve n te r is h e w a s r e q u e s te d t o p a y o v e r a n a m o u n t
o f m o n e y i n t o t h is W e s B a n k Ve h i c l e F i n a n c e A c c e s s A c c o u n t o r a c c o u n t
a n d a t a l a t e r s t a g e h e t h e n d e b it e d t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t a g a in s t h is a g a in s t t h e c o m p a n y a c c o u n t t o s e t t le t h e a m o u n t w h ic h h a s b e e n p a i d .
S o e ff e c t iv e ly w h a t i t m e a n s is t h a t t h e a m o u n t w a s c o v e r e d
b y t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t w h i c h i s f u n d e d th r o u g h t h e s a l e o f v e h ic l e s to
t h e S S A - to C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d C h a ir w e h a v e

received

w h ic h

a

letter

of

sorts

c o r r e c te d

the

name

of

R a n je n i M u n u s a m y to N a v a r e n j a n i M u n u s a m y w h ic h i s s p e l t N - A - V- A - R A - N - J - E - N - I . S u r n a m e M- U - N - U - S - A- M - Y. M r R o e l o fs e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e u p s h o t o f th a t ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Excuse me.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t is t h e u p s h o t o f t h a t ?

Page 75 of 134

I s i t t h a t th e n a m e a s

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
appears here is a wrong name for the account?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: It - it appears to be …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s M r R o e l o fs e k n o w a b o u t t h e l e tt e r ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I h a v e i n f o r m e d h i m o f t h e l e t t e r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair - ja.

I w a s in f o r m e d o f t h e

le t t e r b u t I d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t th e n a m e - t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n n a m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e - th e d i ffe r e n c e i n t h e n a m e s y o u d i d n o t k n o w

a b o u t t h a t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o m a y b e y o u w il l c h e c k l a te r a n d t a lk a n d c h e c k
with him.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l d o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a t t h is s ta g e w e - w e a r e n o t s u r e e x a c tly w h o t h e
p e r s o n is .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t w a s a q u e r y t h a t I w a n t e d to
r a i s e w i t h th is w i t n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n ti l - u n t il M r R o e l o fs e h a s h a d a lo o k a t t h e l e t t e r
a n d m a y b e d o n e w h a t e v e r in v e s t i g a t io n t o c h e c k w h e th e r th e o r ig in a l
in f o r m a ti o n is c o r r e c t o r t h e n e w in f o r m a t i o n is c o r r e c t .

20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e w il l c h e c k t h a t a n d r e v e r t o n th is
part …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O f th e e v id e n c e l a te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th e r e w e r e c e r t a i n

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d is c o u n ts t h a t w e r e g i v e n to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d o t h e r C I m e m b e r s o n
p u r c h a s i n g o f v e h ic le s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d h o w w a s th e d i ffe r e n c e t h e n

f u n d e d b e t w e e n t h e p u r c h a s e p r ic e a n d t h e d is c o u n t e d p r ic e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A r e w e r e fe r r i n g t o v e h ic l e s t h a t

they - that they bought? I am - I just want to …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: At paragraph 139.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Correct.

T h i s is - C h a ir t h is is

c o r r e c t . W h e n a - a n d I w i ll u s e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a s a n e x a m p l e a n d I
w i ll c a ll i t s t il l a n a l l e g a ti o n a l t h o u g h t h is c a s e is b e fo r e c o u r t a n d w e
a r e a w a i ti n g ju d g m e n t.

Judgment must be given.

So I cannot say

w h e t h e r i t is - w h a t t h e ju d g m e n t is g o in g t o b e .
T h e a ll e g a ti o n i s t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s r e c e iv e d a - a d i s c o u n t
o n - a n d I w i ll j u s t u s e o n e e x a m p l e - o n a p r iv a t e v e h i c l e w h i c h h e
b o u g h t . T h e d is c o u n t a m o u n te d to a p p r o x i m a te ly R 1 6 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 a n d th e
d i ff e r e n c e o r t o c o v e r t h e d is c o u n t b e c a u s e t h e a c t u a l v a l u e o f t h e
v e h ic l e w a s R 4 0 0 - a n d - I th in k i t w a s 4 5 0 0 0 0 .
To c o v e r t h e d i ff e r e n c e - t o m a k e u p t h e fu ll a m o u n t t h e
20

p u r c h a s e a m o u n t a n a m o u n t w a s t a k e n fr o m th e B e ir u t a c c o u n t to c o v e r
t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n te r m s o f th e - t h e d i s c o u n t th a t w a s g iv e n t o - t o
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . S o th a t is m o n e y t h a t M r Ve n t e r u s e d fr o m h is B e i r u t
a c c o u n t t o b e n e f it G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t d a te 2 1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 9 m u s t b e w r o n g - a t

1 - 4 1 . W h e n j u d g m e n t w a s r e s e r v e d . Yo u m i g h t s t il l b e g o in g th e r e . I

Page 77 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ju s t d o n o t w a n t t o fo r g e t i t .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s a y i n g I d o n o t w a n t to f o r g e t m e n t io n t h e - t h e
p a r a g r a p h y o u m i g h t s ti ll b e g o i n g t o i t .

Paragraph 1-4-1, you say

ju d g m e n t w a s r e s e r v e d o n 2 1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 9 .

I am saying that must

be - the year must be wrong.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r a c t u a ll y w h a t I - w h a t I

m e a n i n g o r w h a t I m e a n t t o s a y i s t h a t j u d g m e n t is r e s e r v e d f o r t h a t
d a t e . S o t h e r e w il l b e j u d g m e n t w il l ta k e p la c e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I t - i t w il l b e h a n d e d d o w n o n th a t d a t e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o r r y.

That

is

my

-

my

R u s s ia n / E n g l is h s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

N o , n o , n o . A c t u a lly n o , n o . Yo u r - y o u

a r e r ig h t . Yo u d i d s a y fo u r. S o , j a . N o , n o . Yo u - I t h in k y o u - y o u a r e
r ig h t . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t o a m p l if y o n t h a t j u d g m e n t

w h ic h i s d u e t o b e h a n d e d o n 2 1 N o v e m b e r t o w h ic h i n v e s t ig a ti o n d o e s
20

that relate?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

That

relates

to

a

separate

in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w a s in i ti a l ly - C h a ir m a y b e it - it n e e d s a l it t le b i t
e l u c id a ti o n fr o m m y p a r t i n te r ms o f th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

When

Colonel Barnard - I mean Colonel Naidoo came to me and we started
t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e c a u s e o f t h e v a r io u s l e g s th a t w a s in v o lv e d i n

Page 78 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t e r m s o f h is in f o r m a ti o n .
W e - I - I t o o k th e c a s e t o t h e S S C U a s p a r t o f t h e A n t iC o r r u p t io n Ta s k Te a m . I w a s t h e n i n f o r m e d t h a t p r o s e c u t o r s S - a t th e
S S C U i s n o t g o in g to o r t h e y g o t a r e lu c t a n c e o f g e t ti n g in v o lv e d .

I

w a s th e n - I w a s th e n r e f e r r e d - n o t r e f e r r e d . A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l w a s
t h e n b r o u g h t o n b o a r d b y t h e N PA a n d h e - a n d h e s a i d h e w il l - h e w i ll
d o t h e p r o s e c u ti o n p r o v id e d t h a t h e is n o t p r o s e c u t in g G e n e r a l M d lu li
b e c a u s e o f a p r i o r i n c i d e n t th a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e p a s t .
I w a s n o t p r iv y t o a l l o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n - p r i o r to t h a t .
10

I

k n e w s o m e o f i t b u t n o t a ll o f i t a n d t h e n G e n e r a l - A d v o c a t e N e l s a i d
t h a t h e w o u l d t a k e p a r t o f t h a t t r a n s a c t i o n s w h ic h f a ll s - w h i c h f a l ls
w i t h i n t h e a b u s e o f t h e B e ir u t a c c o u n t w i t h i n A t la n ti s M o t o r s .

H e w il l

t a k e t h a t a n d h e w il l t a k e th a t to c o u r t .
S o w e h a d t o s p li t t h a t s p e c i f ic le g fr o m t h e - le t u s c a l l it t h e m a i n i n v e s t ig a ti o n . S o t h a t th e y c a n a t le a s t g e t t h a t o n t h e c o u r t
roll.

T h e o t h e r a d v a n t a g e w a s - is t h a t A d v o c a t e N e l r e p o r t e d t o

A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i th e D P P o f N o r t h G a u t e n g a n d n o t A d v o c a t e M r w e b i
w h o w a s H e a d o f th e S S U a t t h e t i m e .
S o th a t - th a t i n i ts e lf a l l o w e d f o r t h i s m a tt e r t o g o fo r w a r d
20

a n d t h a t i s w h y it w a s d o n e s o r t o f p ie c e m e a l a n d t h a t is w h y th is o n e
w e n t - w e n t to c o u r t a n d n o t t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d th e n l a s t ly th e B e ir u t a c c o u n t d i d
it o p e r a t e w i th in o r o u t s i d e t h e p u r v ie w o f t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h i s - t h is o p e r a t e d o u ts i d e

t h e - t h e p u r v i e w o f t h e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l a n d I a c t u a ll y fo r g o t t o in f o r m

Page 79 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e s a m e a p p li e s t o W e s t v il l e Tr a v e l a n d O n e S t o p Tr a v e l
a n d To u r s . Th e s e a c c o u n ts a r e h e ld w i t h i n t h e a c c o u n t o f th e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r. I t i s n o t a u d i t e d b y th e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l .
T h e y w o u ld n o t k n o w a b o u t t h is a c c o u n t a n d it w a s n o t
d is c l o s e d t o th e m a n d t h e - my a s s e r t i o n - I a m o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t t h e
r e a s o n w h y i t w a s d o n e t h a t w a y is e x a c t ly t o a v o i d a u d i ti n g b y th e - b y
t h e A G ’s O ff ic e a n d i t a ll o w s t h e n th e a b u s e o f th o s e f u n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e e x c l u s io n o f t h e a c c o u n t fr o m t h e o v e r s ig h t
o f t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l i s t h a t b y la w ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir y o u c a n n o t e x c l u d e t h e

A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l w h e n i t c o m e s to t h e f u n d s o f t h e S t a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . N o th e r e a s o n w h y I a m a s k in g …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h is i s C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .

I

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w h e n i t c o m e s to in t e l li g e n c e e v e n i n P a r l ia m e n t th e
r e l e v a n t p o r t fo li o c o m m i t t e e d o e s n o t a ll o w t h e p u b l ic to a t te n d . T h e r e
a r e a l l k in d s o f s e c r e t th i n g s a b o u t l e t t e r r e la t in g t o in t e l li g e n c e .

So

t h a t - t h a t is w h y I a m a s k i n g w h e th e r - b e c a u s e i t is C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
w h e t h e r t h e r e - t h e r e m ig h t b e a n o ffic ia l p o s i t io n t o s a y t h e r e is
20

a n o t h e r w a y o f - o f m a k i n g s u r e th a t t h i n g s a r e - m o n e y is a r e n o t
a b u s e d o r t h e r e i s j u s t - t h e r e a r e j u s t n o m e c h a n is m s b u t y o u a r e
s a y in g it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d is c lo s e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t is a d i ffi c u l t q u e s ti o n t o

answer because it could not have been disclosed, because the moment
y o u d is c lo s e i t y o u ’ r e s a y i n g t o t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l t h a t I a m

Page 80 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
c o m m i t t in g a c r i m e . S o i t c a n n o t b e d i s c l o s e d b y t h e p e o p le in v o lv e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o b u t fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g , a r e n ’ t y o u s a y i n g th a t

s o m e b o d y d e c i d e d , o r s o m e p e o p l e d e c i d e d n o t to b e s u b j e c te d t o th e
o v e r s ig h t o f th e – o r d is c l o s e i t t o t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l b u t i t s h o u ld b e
s u b j e c t to t h e o v e r s i g h t o f t h e A u d it o r G e n e r a l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

If i t is a ll o w e d fo r it s h o u ld b e

s u b j e c t e d t o t h e o v e r s ig h t o f th e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l C h a ir.

W h a t I’v e

t e s ti fi e d r e g a r d i n g t h a t is w h a t w a s s a i d to Mr J a n Ve n t e r a s t h e r e a s o n
f o r t h e s e t t in g u p o f t h is a c c o u n t , th e a d d i ti o n a l a c c o u n t , t h a t it w i ll
10

a s s is t t h e m i n a d v a n c i n g t h e w o r k o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e . I n o t h e r w o r d s
h e t h o u g h t a t t h e ti m e h e is g o in g t o b e o f a s s is t a n c e in f ig h ti n g c r i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a , t h e n t o r e a l is e l a t e r th a t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It w a s n ’ t fo r – w e l l i t m ig h t h a v e

started up that way but it did not end that way and that is where the
d i ff ic u l ty a n d th e d a n g e r li e s w i th t h is k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n ts b e c a u s e
t h e r e ’s n o o v e r s i g h t o n i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

In

summary

then

of

the

in v e s t i g a t io n s c a n I – o f th e 11 i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e p r e s e n t e d
20

h e r e t o t h e C o m m is s i o n c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to B u n d l e K K 2 . 3 , d i a g r a m
5 . S o a t d i a g r a m 5 o f K K 2 . 3 is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h i s is a r e fl e c t io n o f th e
s t a tu s o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a s a t y e s t e r d a y, w h ic h i s t h e 1 7 t h o f S e p te m b e r
2019.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And can I then ask you to address

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h e s t a tu s i n r e s p e c t o f e a c h o f t h e s e in v e s t ig a ti o n s p l e a s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir l e t m e s ta r t w i t h th e o n e s

t h a t ’s n o t – o r l e t m e s t a r t a t t h e t o p o f t h i s d i a g r a m .

When I am

r e fe r r i n g h e r e to M d l u l i c o n v ic t e d t h a t is i n r e s p e c t o f t h e Vo s l o o r u s
case.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n r e s p e c t o f ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e Vo s lo o r u s c a s e w h ic h s ta r t e d

o ff t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h e n I h a v e i f y o u g o fr o m

c lo c k w i s e t h e n I h a v e fl ig h t r e s e r v a ti o n s , O n e S t o p Tr a v e l & To u r s ,
W e s t v i ll e Tr a v e l , t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n w a s n e v e r f in a l is e d b e c a u s e w e d id
n o t r e c e i v e a ll t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n .

Th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f v e h ic l e s , J o e

M a r k s a n d N e w W o r l d M o t o r s w a s n e v e r fi n a li s e d f o r th e s a m e r e a s o n .
L a z a r u s ’ p r o m o ti o n a n d a p p o i n t m e n ts n e v e r f in a lis e d f o r t h e s a m e
r e a s o n , L a z a r u s a b u s e o f s a fe h o u s e w a s – i t w a s fi n a l is e d to a c e r t a i n
e x t e n t b u t I c a n n o t c o n t in u e w i t h i t b e c a u s e th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n i s n o t
a v a i la b le in t h e s e n s e th a t i t h a s b e e n c la s s i fi e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
20

A r e w e to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t it h a s

b e e n p a r t ia lly f in a lis e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t h a s b e e n p a r t ia ll y f in a lis e d y e s .

Thank you.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e n I h a v e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y w h a t d o e s i t m e a n i t is p a r t i a l ly fi n a li s e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir m a y b e y o u s h o u l d a s k th e

Page 82 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
e v i d e n c e l e a d e r, b u t I a g r e e d w i th t h e a n s w e r s s o . l . .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a n in v e s t i g a t io n is e i t h e r fi n a l is e d o r n o t

fi n a l is e d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir u n f o r t u n a t e ly it d o e s n o t

a l w a y s w o r k l ik e t h a t b e c a u s e a s f a r . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

U n l e s s y o u ’r e d e a li n g w it h d i ff e r e n t i n d i v i d u a ls

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

D i ff e r e n t in d i v i d u a ls th a t i s

c o r r e c t y e s a n d y o u s it w i t h fr o m my p o in t o f v i e w a s in v e s t i g a t o r t h e
10

in v e s t i g a t io n is o n l y fi n a l is e d n o t e v e n a f t e r – e v e n i f t h e c o u r t c a s e
s t a r ts b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s a lw a y s s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u h a v e t o f o l l o w u p o n
s o a n in v e s t i g a t io n is – y o u c a n g e t t h e b u lk o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n
fi n a l is e d b u t t h e r e a l w a y s p o p u p s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u n e e d to fo ll o w u p
on.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So I would place it in that

c a t e g o r y, i t h a s b e e n fi n a li s e d b u t I d o n o t – t h e r e i s c e r t a i n th i n g s t h a t
is s ti ll o u t s t a n d i n g , b u t t h e m a j o r i ty w o r k h a s b e e n d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e n L a z a r u s a n d th e p u r c h a s i n g

o f v e h ic l e s w a s n e v e r f in a l is e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Fo r w h a t r e a s o n ?

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

I t is f o r th e s a m e r e a s o n w e d i d

n o t r e c e iv e a l l t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n r e l a t i n g t o t h e p u r c h a s e s , a s w e ll a s
t h e n o n - d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f t h o s e d o c u m e n t s .

Page 83 of 134

L a z a r u s u p g r a d e to

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
p r i v a t e p r e m is e s , th a t i s – t h e s a m e a p p li e s t h e r e . L a z a r u s M a r i m u t o
t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s s to p p e d , w a s n e v e r fi n a li s e d .

Lazarus safe

h o u s e s th e s a m e a p p l i e s t h e r e , i t w a s n e v e r f in a l is e d , w e w e r e n ’ t a b l e
t o d o it , a p a r t f r o m o n e i n s t a n c e w h e r e it d e a ls w i th t h e h o u s e i n
G o r d o n s B a y w h i c h b e l o n g t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t is t h e s t a t u s o f t h a t

in v e s t i g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t fo r m s p a r t o f t h e c a s e t h a t

n e e d s to b e r e - e n r o l l e d a n d t h e n i n te r m s o f w h a t n e e d s to b e r e 10

e n r o ll e d is t h e L a z a r u s tr i p s a b r o a d f o r M d lu li , M d l u li p r o m o t io n s a n d
a p p o i n t m e n ts , A tl a n tis M o t o r s , a n d th o s e c a s e s a r e p e n d i n g . I t w a s i n
t e r m s o f th e S C A ju d g m e n t it w a s r e - e n r o ll e d . U n f o r t u n a t e ly d u r i n g t h a t
ti m e f r a m e S A P S w a s r e q u ir e d to d e c la s s if y d o c u m e n ts p u r p o s e s o f t h e
tr i a l, t h e y d i d n o t a n d t h e m a g is tr a te d e c i d e d to r e m o v e t h e c a s e fr o m
t h e r o l l, a n d u n fo r t u n a t e l y w e c a n n o t p la c e it b a c k o n t h e r o l l u n t il th e
o u t s t a n d i n g m a t t e r s h a s b e e n d e a l t w i th .
CHAIRPERSON:

It was removed from the roll because there were

s o m e m a t t e r s th a t s ti ll n e e d e d to b e a tt e n d e d t o b e f o r e i t c o u ld
proceed?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a , t h e m a t te r th a t – t h e m a t t e r s

that

is

needed

to

be

attended

to

the

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n

of

th e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n , s o i t h a d to b e h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e d e f e n c e w h ic h w e
could not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . W e l l t h i s is s u e o f d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n n e e d s t o
b e s o r t e d o u t w i th o u t d e l a y b e c a u s e it ’s h o ld in g u p t o o m a n y m a t t e r s .

Page 84 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. W e c a n n o t

u s e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n a s a m e a s u r e to – n o t t o b e in v e s t i g a t e d , f ir s tl y a n d
s e c o n d ly n o t t o b e p r o s e c u t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t i s t h e s ta t u s o f t h e la s t

in v e s t i g a t io n w h ic h is n a m e d A t la n ti s M o to r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e i n v e s t ig a t io n is f in a l is e d –

s o r r y th e r e w o u l d b e t w o , I s e e t h e r e a r e t w o b u b b l e s t h a t g o e s fr o m I
d i d n ’ t – I m is s e d th a t n o w, t h e M d l u l i , t h e r o l e o f M d l u li a n d in r e s p e c t
10

o f th e in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t is f i n a li s e d t h a t l e g n e e d s t o b e e n r o l l e d a n d i t
is p a r t o f t h a t c h a r g e s h e e t . Th e L a z a r u s / B a r n a r d w h i c h is p e n d i n g is
t h e o n e t h a t ’s b e i n g d e a l t w i t h a n d i t is a li m i te d , i t i s o n ly l i mi t e d t o a
p o r t i o n o f t h e A t l a n t is M o t o r s tr a n s a c ti o n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is it therefore to be understood that

t h e f in a l is a ti o n o f t h e s e m a t t e r s o r t h e s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d m a t t e r s
d e p e n d s o n d o c u m e n ts r e q u ir e d t o b e d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, I a m n o t a

p r o s e c u t o r b u t t h a t is w h a t I a m a l s o a d v i s e d b y t h e p r o s e c u t o r s i n th e
m a t t e r, a n d I t h in k i t is c le a r t o m e a s w e ll th a t t h e r e is c e r t a i n t h in g s
20

that you do need to place before a court of law in order to prove your
case.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

F o r t h e b e n e fi t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e

g o i n g f o r w a r d t h e n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e c la s s if ic a ti o n o r r a t h e r t h e
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n ts a n d th e d o c u m e n t s th a t a r e r e q u ir e d f o r
p u r p o s e s o f y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n c a n w e j u s t c la r i fy c e r t a i n m a t t e r s f o r

Page 85 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h e r e c o r d a s y o u a c tu a lly e x p l a i n e d t o u s . I t is u n d e r s to o d t h a t t h e r e
a r e c e r t a in d o c u m e n ts , a s y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d n o w, w h ic h a r e
c la s s if i e d

and

w h ic h

are

r e le v a n t

for

purposes

of

f i n a li s i n g

in v e s t i g a t io n s , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o w t h e s e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h a r e

c la s s if i e d w h o h o l d s th e s e d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i f I m a y e x p l a i n i t i n t h e

f o ll o w i n g w a y, d u r in g t h e p e r io d t h a t G e n e r a l H a n k e l w a s a v a i la b le a n d
10

a s s is t e d m e I r e c e i v e d q u i te a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts fr o m h i m , a s p a r t
o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . In t h a t p r o c e s s a n d a s m o r e i n fo r m a ti o n c a m e o u t
I a s k e d f o r – I w o u ld r e q u ir e fr o m h i m f u r t h e r d o c u m e n ta t io n t o e i th e r
p r o v e o r d is p r o v e th e a ll e g a t io n t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e .

So he then

p r o v i d e d m e w i t h t h o s e d o c u m e n t s o n a c o n t in u o u s b a s is , u p u n ti l t h e
p o i n t t h a t h e w a s tr a n s fe r r e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h e n w a s h e tr a n s f e r r e d , i f I

c o u l d d ir e c t y o u r a t t e n t io n to p a r a g r a p h 1 4 4 o n p a g e 4 3 , a s t h e d a t e
you have informed us it to be.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir h e w a s tr a n s f e r r e d o n o r

a b o u t th e 2 2 n d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 , o u t o f C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e to g e th e r
w i t h M a jo r G e n e r a l M t s h a t s i w a s t h e a c ti n g h e a d o f C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e
a t t h e ti m e . H e – i n o t h e r w o r d s I h a d d o c u m e n t s , c l a s s i f ie d d o c u m e n ts
in m y p o s s e s s i o n w h ic h w a s p r o v id e d to m e b y G e n e r a l H a n k e l . T h e n I
a ls o r e q u e s t e d m o r e d o c u m e n t a ti o n , I r e c e iv e d s o m e o f th e m , b u t m o s t
o f t h e m I d i d n o t r e c e iv e , a n d I d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n ts ,

Page 86 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
c la s s if i e d d o c u m e n ts o r o t h e r w is e fr o m C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e s in c e th a t
p e r i o d a p a r t fr o m a n a ffi d a v i t th a t I t o o k fr o m s o m e o n e b u t i t d i d n o t
in c l u d e a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n , i t in c l u d e d t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e a c c o u n t b u t
t h e r e w a s n o d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n v o lv e d i n r e s p e c t o f t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t I
h a v e t a k e n fr o m h i m .
S o I – t h e r e a r e t w o s e ts o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t i s r e le v a n t h e r e ,
t h e o n e s th a t I d o h a v e , t h a t n e e d s to b e d e c l a s s i f ie d , a n d t h e o n e s
t h a t is s ti ll in p o s s e s s io n o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t h a t n e e d s t o b e
c la s s if i e d a n d t h e n h a n d e d o v e r i n a d e c la s s i fi e d fa s h i o n f o r m e t o u s e
10

in a c o u r t o f l a w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d s o is i t th e n t o b e u n d e r s to o d

t h a t t h e – a n d I h o p e I a m u n d e r s t a n d i n g y o u c o r r e c t ly, t h e d o c u m e n ts
t h a t y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d th r o u g h G e n e r a l H a n k e l a n d d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u
h a v e r e q u e s te d fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e in a d e c l a s s if i e d f o r m s o m e o r
a l l o f t h o s e d o c u m e n t s a r e r e le v a n t fo r p u r p o s e s o f fi n a li s i n g y o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, b u t t h e r e i s

a ls o I m e a n I h a v e i d e n ti f ie d m o r e d o c u m e n ta t io n a s w e w e n t a l o n g
w i t h t h e c o n t in u e d i n v e s ti g a t i o n b u t y e s t h a t is w h a t th e s i tu a ti o n is .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d ju s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c l a r i ty h a v e

y o u r e c e i v e d a n y c o o p e r a t io n s i n c e G e n e r a l H a n k e l le f t t h e p o s i ti o n h e
held in CI?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir I d i d n o t – t o m e i t

c u l m i n a te d in n o c o o p e r a t io n a t a l l fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , n o r fr o m
SAPS

management

in

respect

of

my

Page 87 of 134

request

to

d e c la s s i f y

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d o c u m e n t a ti o n , a n d a s y o u w il l s e e l a t e r o n in t h e t e s ti m o n y y o u w il l
s e e th e e ff o r ts t h a t w e h a v e d o n e o r m a d e to g e t d o c u m e n t a ti o n
d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d t h e b a r r ie r s th a t w e r e p u t u p e v e r y t i m e t h a t y o u a s k e d
f o r d o c u m e n ta t io n to b e d e c la s s if i e d , o r a s k e d f o r d o c u m e n ts t o b e
p r o v i d e d in a d e c l a s s i fi e d f a s h i o n , u n c la s s if ie d f a s h i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t a ll th e d o c u m e n ts th a t h a v e
n o t b e e n d e c l a s s i fi e d w h i c h a r e r e s p o n s i b le f o r c e r t a i n o f t h e s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s n o t b e in g fi n a li s e d o r t r i a ls n o t p r o c e e d i n g a r e t h e y a ll
h e l d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
10

MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

in

te r ms

of

the

m a jo r i ty

of

the

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: Or most?
MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

No

the

d o c u m e n t a ti o n r e la t in g t o th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w h e r e I s a i d i t is fi n a li s e d
p e n d i n g t h e d e c l a s s i fic a t io n o f t h e d o c u m e n t s , m o s t o f th o s e c l a s s i fi e d
d o c u m e n ts a r e i n m y p o s s e s s i o n s o I n e e d to h a v e t o d e c l a s s i fy i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
fi n a l is e d
20

it

is

d o c u m e n ta t io n

s t ill

In respect of the ones that is not
in

th e

p o s s e s s io n

of

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e , th e y h a v e n o t p r o v i d e d t o m e , w h ic h w e r e r e q u e s t e d o n
p r e v i o u s o c c a s io n s b u t i t w a s n ’ t p r o v i d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d d id y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u d o n ’ t
h a v e t h e d o c u m e n ts is t h a t in r e g a r d to s o m e p e o p le t h a t y o u h a v e
d e a lt w i th i n r e g a r d t o th e is s u e o f d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n t h e y h a v e t o l d y o u
t h a t th e d o c u m e n ts w il l n o t b e d e c l a s s i fi e d , b u t i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r s t h a t

Page 88 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e y n e v e r g a v e y o u a n o u tr i g h t n o , y o u w o u l d s e n d
s o m e t h i n g a n d t h e n s ix m o n t h s la t e r n o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d , i s th a t t h e
p o s i ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a i r i f I m a y a n s w e r i t t h i s w a y,

m y – t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I r e q u e s t e d a d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o n fr o m t h e
o n s e t r e la t e d to t h e m a t t e r s t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o a s fi n a l is e d . I r e q u e s te d
t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o o t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s , i t w a s n ’ t g i v e n t o
m e , s o a t th a t p o i n t in ti m e I a lr e a d y k n e w I a m n o t g o i n g t o g e t t h e
d o c u m e n ts , b e c a u s e C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e s a id t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o g i v e
10

me the documents.
S o m y f o c u s w a s o n t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n th a t I h a d i n m y
p o s s e s s i o n to g e t i t d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
t h a t I s e n t t o S A P S a n d C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e i t d e a ls w i t h t h o s e
d o c u m e n ts t h a t h e ld o r t h a t d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t t e r s t h a t h a s b e e n
fi n a l is e d a n d is s u p p o s e d t o g o t o c o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e m a tt e r s t h a t h a v e n o t b e e n f in a lis e d b e c a u s e
d o c u m e n ts h a v e n o t b e e n d e c la s s i f ie d is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t i n r e g a r d t o
t h o s e m a t t e r s w h i c h h a v e n o t b e e n f in a li s e d w h ic h a r e r e f le c te d u p o n
d i a g r a m 5 is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t t h e r e is a s t a l e m a t e , t h e r e is n o t h i n g

20

h a p p e n in g in t e r m s o f a p r o c e s s th a t m a y le a d to t h e d o c u m e n ts b e i n g
d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is t h e p o s i ti o n C h a ir a n d t h e

s a m e p o s i ti o n a p p l i e s t o t h e d o c u m e n ts i n my p o s s e s s i o n t h a t n e e d s t o
b e d e c l a s s i f ie d , t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s t h e t w o t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w is i t th e H e a d o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w h o

Page 89 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d o e s t h e , w h o m a k e s t h e d e c is io n s w h e t h e r t o c l a s s i fy o r d e c l a s s if y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i n te r m s o f t h e m is s e d

d o c u m e n t a n d th e p r o c e d u r e s t h a t t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s
f o ll o w it is t h e a u t h o r o f t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h in t h is in s t a n c e I c a n n o t
a s k , th e a u th o r o f th e d o c u m e n t a r e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s in th e
c r i m i n a li ty, o r th e a l le g e d c r i m i n a l i ty, a n d t h e o t h e r p e r s o n is t h e
N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

I have seen in some of the

d o c u m e n ts , t h e c o n f i d e n ti a l d o c u m e n t s w h ic h w a s s e n t t o n o t o n ly t h e
M u g o l lo C o m m i s s i o n a s w e ll a s t h i s C o m m i s s io n t h a t B r i g a d i e r Va n
G r a a n w a s d e le g a t e d o n b e h a l f o f th e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r t o
d e c l a s s i fy th o s e d o c u m e n ts , s o I w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t t h e N a ti o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r h a s th a t d e l e g a t i o n p o w e r t o d e l e g a t e s o m e o n e t o d o i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t h a s n o t h a p p e n e d in t h i s

in s t a n c e , n o t in a n y o f t h e d o c u m e n ts , o n ly t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t w a s
r e q u ir e d b y t h e t w o c o m m i s s i o n s w h ic h d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r ily t a k e t h e
c r i m i n a l m a t t e r a n y f u r t h e r, i t p o i n ts t o t h e n o n - c o o p e r a t io n o r th e
20

in a b i li ty o f b o t h t h e S A P S a n d e n d p l a y e r n o t t o i n v e s ti g a te a n d t o
p r o s e c u t e , i t r e l a t e s m o r e t o th a t t h a n a n y t h i n g e ls e , n o t t o t h e c o n t e n t
o f t h e d o c u m e n ts u s e d , n e e d e d fo r t h e c r i m i n a l m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

But where you

needed

document eight to

be

d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d th e y r e f u s e d b u t f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e t h e C o m m i s s io n
a p p r o a c h e s t h e m a n d t h e y d e c la s s i f y it , i s n ’ t t h e p o s it i o n th a t i t c a n b e

Page 90 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
u s e d f o r th e p u r p o s e o f t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d y o u c a n u s e i t f o r
p u r p o s e s o f t h e c r i m i n a l m a t t e r a s w e l l o n c e i t h a s b e e n d e c l a s s if i e d ,
in o th e r w o r d s th e r e i s n o s a y i n g it h a s o n ly d e c l a s s i fi e d fo r t h e
C o m m i s s i o n , i t c a n ’ t b e u s e d in th e c r i m in a l fi le , i f . . . [i n d is t in c t ]
c la s s if i e d it i t is s t il l c l a s s i fi e d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r a s I u n d e r s to o d i t o n c e i t is

d e c l a s s i fi e d i t is d e c la s s if i e d , th e r e is n o p r o v i s i o n in th is d o c u m e n t o f
a d o c u m e n t b e i n g p r o v i s i o n a ll y d e c l a s s i fi e d , I h a v e n o t s e e n t h a t , I
have not ready it anywhere.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So I would assume that if it is

d e c l a s s i fi e d t h e n i t is o p e n fo r u s e i n a n y – a t a n y f o r u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

But – yes.

B u t in r e g a r d t o y o u r m a tt e r s h a s t h e N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o l ic e b e e n a p p r o a c h e d a n d h a s h e r e f u s e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h e r e is n o t a s h o r t a n s w e r

t o t h a t , I d e a l w i t h i t i n m y e v i d e n c e l a te r o n , b u t t h e s u m t o ta l o f m y
e v i d e n c e c o m e s d o w n t o t h e f a c t t h a t a ll t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s ,
20

e v e n t h e a c t i n g N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r s w e r e a p p r o a c h e d a n d n o n e o f
t h e m h a s d e c l a s s i fi e d t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n n e e d e d f o r th e p r o s e c u t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , m m m . O k a y, n o w th a t ’s fi n e . I t h i n k i t w il l b e
i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n b e f u r n i s h e d w it h in f o r m a ti o n th a t s a y s
w h a t d o c u m e n ts th e y a r e , a t le a s t i n s o fa r a s t h e y a r e r e l e v a n t to t h e
w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d i f th e y a r e r e l e v a n t fo r t h e w o r k o f t h e

Page 91 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C o m m i s s i o n a n d th e y h a v e n o t b e e n d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d th e C o m m is s i o n
n e e d s t h e m t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i ll a p p r o a c h t h e r e l e v a n t a u th o r i ti e s to
g e t t h e m , a n d if th e y g e t c l a s s i fi e d , d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d y o u n e e d th e m I
k n o w o f n o r e a s o n w h y y o u c a n ’ t h a v e th e m .

If there is a reason we

w i ll d e a l w i t h – w e w il l lo o k a t i t a t th a t s t a g e i f s o m e b o d y s a y s th e r e is
a p r o b le m , b e c a u s e I t h in k w h e n it i s g iv e n , w h e n i t is g iv e n t o u s m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g i s a s l o n g a s i t is d e c l a s s i f ie d a n y b o d y c a n h a v e a l o o k
a t i t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

T h a t i s h o w I u n d e r s t a n d it a ls o

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , j a , o k a y I th in k t h e n t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n w o u ld b e

u s e fu l t o t h e l e g a l te a m .

T h e y w i ll i n d i c a t e to y o u i n t e r m s o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o t h e w o r k o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a g e 4 3 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t y o u n o w

t u r n t o t h e e v e n ts fr o m M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a n d i n s p e c i f ic y o u d e a l w it h
d is c i p l i n a r y a n d c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s w h ic h w e r e r e f e r r e d t o th e
I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f I n te ll ig e n c e .

What happened on the 29th of

F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 M r R o e l o fs e ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir o n t h a t d a t e a n d th e s e

e v e n t s i f I m a y d e a ls n o w m o r e w i th t h e a c ti o n s th a t w e u n d e r to o k t o
get

the

documents

d e c l a s s i fi e d

and

the

r o a d b lo c k s

that

we

e x p e r i e n c e d , a n d I h a v e a d a te t h e r e t h e e v e n ts fr o m M a r c h 2 0 1 2 .
O n t h e 2 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l J u l i u s M a l e f e
in s t r u c t e d h a l ti n g o f a l l d is c i p l i n a r y m a t te r s r e la t in g t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

Page 92 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i. H e a ls o i n s tr u c te d t h a t a ll t h e d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g
t o t h e d is c ip li n a r y m a t t e r s b e h a n d e d t o t h e I G I .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I G I b e i n g b e i n g t h e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f

I n t e lli g e n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

M a y b e I s h o u l d j u s t p u t t h a t i n to

c o n te x t , G e n e r a l – t h i s w a s o n b a c k o f a d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s m a d e b y t h e
t h e n Ac t in g N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t h e n a c ti n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e t h e n a c ti n g N a t io n a l

Commissioner who was General Nkunazi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

H e , o n o u r r e q u e s t, a n d w h e n I ’ m

t a lk in g a b o u t o u r r e q u e s t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e D P I ’s r e q u e s t , w e
asked

h i m , I a s k e d h i m t h r o u g h G e n e r a l J a m a t t o r e f e r t h e q u e s ti o n

w h e t h e r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h o u l d b e d e a l t w it h i n I G I o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n
s h o u l d b e d e a l t w i t h b y t h e I G I o r t h e S o u th A f r ic a n P o lic e S e r v i c e t o
r e fe r i t t o t h e I G I s o th a t s h e c a n m a k e a d e c is i o n a s to w h e r e th is t h e
20

m a n d a t e fo r t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n li e s .
A n d th is f o l lo w s fr o m t h e d e c is i o n t h a t A d v o c a t e M a g o b i m a d e
t h a t th e r e i s n o c a s e t o a n s w e r a n d t h a t i t f a lls w i t h i n th e m a n d a t e o f
t h e I G I . T h a t is w h y t h is r e q u e s t w a s m a d e , s o b a s e d o n t h a t r e q u e s t
G e n e r a l M o l e f e th e n a s k e d t h a t th e d o c u m e n ts r e l a t in g t o t h e v a r io u s
d is c i p l i n a r y a c t io n s a s w e ll a s t h e n th r o u g h G e n e r a l J a m a t I w a s

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
r e q u e s t e d t o p r o v i d e t h e I G I w i t h t h e d o c k e ts r e l a ti n g t o th e l o o ti n g o f
the SSA fund.
I t – t h is w a s t h e n r e f e r r e d to – th e d o c u m e n t s w e r e , t h e a c t u a l
d o c u m e n ts , b e c a u s e I h a d to g iv e t h e a c t u a l d o c k e t t o t h e I G I , i t w a s
r e fe r r e d to th e I G I a n d a f t e r t h e r e f e r r a l w a s d o n e a n d w e r e c e iv e d a n
a n s w e r fr o m t h e I G I w h ic h b a s i c a lly s a i d th a t th e y d o n ’ t h a v e t h e
m a n d a t e to d o t h e c r i m in a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n , i t d o e s n o t f a ll w i t h i n th e ir
mandate,

it

–

the

documents

were

r e tu r n e d

to

us

for

f u r th e r

in v e s t i g a t io n a s w e ll a s t o a p p r o p r i a t e d i s c i p l in a r y a c t i o n a g a i n s t th e
10

m e m b e r s i n v o lv e d , a n d a c c o r d i n g t o my k n o w l e d g e n o d e p a r t m e n t a l
in v e s t i g a t io n s

t o o k p la c e , a p a r t fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

who

was

s u b s e q u e n t ly d is m i s s e d a f te r a d e p a r t m e n t a l h e a r in g .
I h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d th a t th e r e w a s a d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g t h a t
d e a lt w it h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d , I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e o u t c o m e w a s o f th a t
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g , I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s f in a lis e d a n d I d o n o t
k n o w i f i t w a s fi n a l is e d w h a t t h e s a n c ti o n w a s , C o l o n e l B a r n a r d i s s ti ll
in t h e e m p l o y o f S A P S , a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d o e s i t l o o k l ik e t h e o u tc o m e w a s k e p t s e c r e t

e x c e p t m a y b e f o r p e o p l e t h a t w e r e c l o s e ly in v o lv e d ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w o u ld p r e s u m e s o , I d o

n o t k n o w w h a t t h e o u tc o m e w a s , n o b o d y – I h a v e a s k e d b u t n o b o d y is
in a p o s i ti o n t o t e ll m e o r n o b o d y w a n t s t o s a y a n y th i n g . I d o n ’ t k n o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M r R o e lo fs e y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e

e a r l ie r t h a t i t w a s B r i g a d ie r M a d o n s e l la a n d C a p t a i n H ir a la l w h o w e r e
in v o lv e d i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s r e l a ti n g t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t s o f t h e 2 5 0

Page 94 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
r e c r u it m e n t p r o c e s s i n 2 0 1 0 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

And that it was through that process

t h a t i t w a s – t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n fa m i ly a n d f r i e n d s w h o w e r e a p p o i n t e d ,
w h o w e r e s o r e la t e d to G e n e r a l M d l u l i , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d M r
Marimuto.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is a ls o c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D i d – w h a t i n f o r m a ti o n d i d y o u

r e c e i v e fr o m B r i g a d i e r M a d o n s e l l a o r C a p t a i n H ir a l a l in r e la t io n to t h e
10

o u t c o m e s o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir a s I e x p l a i n e d e a r li e r w e

e x c h a n g e d a ff i d a v i ts a n d i n f o r m a ti o n o n a r e g u la r b a s is .

I have – I

h a v e a l r e a d y d e a lt w it h t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t w a s i n v e s t ig a t e d b y
M a d o n s e ll a a t a n e a r li e r s t a g e i n m y t e s ti m o n y.
in v e s t i g a t io n s

i n to

the

250

appointme nt

process

A s p a r t o f t h e ir
I

was

a ls o

in

p o s s e s s i o n o f c o p i e s o f fo u r t e e n d o c u m e n t s , f o u r te e n c r i m i n a l c a s e
d o c k e ts .

N o w t h e s e c r i m i n a l c a s e d o c k e ts c a m e i n t o m y p o s s e s s i o n

a ft e r it w a s s e n t b a c k fr o m th e I G I t o m y o ffi c e , I th e n s a w t h e c r i m i n a l
c a s e d o c k e t s , I m a d e c o p i e s o f th o s e 1 4 c r i m i n a l c a s e d o c k e ts , a n d I
20

s e n t t h e o r i g i n a ls b a c k to S A P S .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What did these criminal case

d o c k e ts c o n c e r n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h o s e c a s e d o c k e t s w a s

o p e n e d b y C a p t a in H ir a l a l in r e s p e c t o f t h e n o n - d i s c lo s u r e o f c r i m in a l
c o n v i c ti o n s a n d c iv il j u d g m e n ts b y t h e a p p lic a n t s f o r e m p l o y m e n t . T h e

Page 95 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r is e m p o w e r e d t o c o n d o n e a d is c lo s u r e o f
c r i m i n a l c o n v i c t i o n s o r c iv il j u d g m e n ts to f a v o u r t h e e m p l o y m e n t o f t h e
a p p lic a n t.

I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n y p r i o r c o n d o n a t i o n b y th e N a t io n a l

Commissioner regarding these appointments.

I h a v e s u b s e q u e n tl y

b e e n in f o r m e d t h a t a c o n d o n a ti o n h a s t a k e n p l a c e .

B u t u n fo r t u n a t e l y

t h a t c o n d o n a ti o n c a n n o t i n c lu d e t h e m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n m a d e a s i n – a s
– a s r e f e r r e d to b y C a p t a i n H ir a l a l i n th e c a s e d o c k e ts t h a t h e h a s
o p e n e d . A n d I h a v e – I h a d a c h a n c e t o lo o k o n t h e c r i m i n a l C A S t h e
c r i m i n a l a d m i n i s tr a t io n s y s t e m w h i c h is t h e p o l ic e ’s C A S s y s t e m i n
10

r e s p e c t o f t h e s e 1 4 d o c k e ts .

I t d id n o t fa ll w i t h i n m y [i n d is t in c t ] in

t e r m s o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n b u t I w a s in t e r e s t e d in te r ms o f w h a t t h e
outcome was.

A n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e S A P S c r i m i n a l a d m i n is tr a ti o n

s y s te m t w o o f th o s e d o c k e ts w e r e c l o s e d a s u n d e t e c t e d , o n e w a s
w i t h d r a w n a n d e lv e n w e r e c l o s e d a s f a l s e . A n d a s f a r …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Would – sorry what does the – what

d o e s u n d e t e c te d , w i t h d r a w n a n d f a l s e m e a n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t is u s e d i n d i ff e r e n t – i n

d i ff e r e n t – i n e s s e n c e i t r e m a i n s – i t is th e s a m e t h i n g in th e s e n s e t h a t
t h e r e is n o i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t is g o i n g t o c o n ti n u e o n th e b a c k o f c l o s i n g
20

of a docket with these headings.

W i t h d r a w n – a d o c k e t th a t i s

w i t h d r a w n w o u ld m e a n t h a t a d o c k e t w a s w i t h th e N PA a n d t h e d e c is i o n
was made whether to prosecute or not. In terms of a docket that has
b e e n c l o s e d a s fa ls e i t w o u l d b e a p o li c e o ff ic e r t h a t w o u l d c l o s e t h a t
d o c k e t a s f a ls e in o t h e r w o r d s t h e r e is n o s u b s t a n t ia t io n fo r th e – fo r
t h e a l l e g a ti o n th a t w a s m a d e . A n d th e s a m e a p p li e d to u n d e t e c t e d . I n

Page 96 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h is i n s ta n c e t h e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n a s u b s t a n t ia t io n f o r th e a l l e g a ti o n
b u t t h e y c a n n o t f in d a n y t h i n g o r t h e y c a n n o t fi n d t h e p e r s o n th a t w a s
i m p l ic a t e d in th is m a t te r.

I h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly – I h a v e g iv e n t h is – I

h a v e g iv e n th is i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d I w a s i n f o r m e d a ft e r
e n q u ir y I t h in k o n M o n d a y t h e r e f o r e t h e r e i s n o – th e r e is n o m e n ti o n o f
t h is t h a t th e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s d i d in f a c t g iv e c o p ie s t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n w h i c h t h e n c h a n g e s s o m e o f t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t I h a v e o n
m y – i n my a ffi d a v i t h e r e . A s I w a s n o t p r i v y t o th e – t o t h e d o c k e ts
b e f o r e i t c a m e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n . I d id n o t – I d i d n o t r e c e iv e th e m .
10

A n d I w ill h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h t h e m t o s e e w h e t h e r p a r a g r a p h 1 4 6 . 3 i s
s t il l r e l e v a n t .

A l t h o u g h t h e o n e s t h a t I d i d s e e t h e r e is c e r t a i n

q u e s t io n s t h a t I h a v e a s t o w h y t h a t m a t t e r w a s w i t h d r a w n i n t h e fir s t
p l a c e . B e c a u s e m o r e t h a n j u s t t h e o n e d o c k e t a s – a s i n d ic a t e d i n t h e
C A S a d m i n is tr a ti o n s y s t e m h a s b e e n w i t h th e N PA f o r a d e c is io n a n d
n o t o n ly t h e o n e . S o I w i ll h a v e t o g o b a c k a n d h a v e a l o o k a t e x a c t ly
what had happened there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n I t a k e y o u b a c k t o t h e m a t t e r s t h a t w e r e r e fe r r e d
t o t h e I G I a n d t h e y s u b s e q u e n t ly c a m e b a c k t o y o u . As I u n d e r s to o d
y o u ; y o u s a i d i s i t C o lo n e l B a r n a r d ?
20

Yo u u n d e r s t o o d th a t h e w a s

s u b j e c t e d t o a d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r in g b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w t h e o u tc o m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I do not

k n o w t h e o u tc o m e . I f – J a I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r a d is c ip li n a r y w a s –
h a d ta k e n p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w a s to l d o n e w a s t a k e n – I w a s

Page 97 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
told that one took place.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o I d o n o t – I c a n n o t c o n f ir m

t h a t o n e h a s t a k e n p la c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t s a y fo r s u r e , y e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

But I do not know about the

outcome either yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t w i t h – is i t w it h r e g a r d t o G e n e r a l M d lu li

t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g th e r e w a s n o d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g th a t h a p p e n e d ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g h a d

h a p p e n e d i n – w i t h r e g a r d s to G e n e r a l M d l u l i C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So that one you know?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s t h a t o n e I k n o w b e c a u s e …

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w a s n e v e r a s k e d f o r th e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n b y t h e S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

To p r o v e o r d is p r o v e h is

in v o lv e m e n t s i n c e r ta in o f th e s e i n c id e n ts .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So they could not have done it

w i t h o u t th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t I h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . B u t in r e g a r d t o h i m w h o w o u ld h a v e b e e n
t h e p e r s o n to m a k e th e d e c is io n th a t h e m u s t f a c e a d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u i r y
or hearing?

Page 98 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a t t h e ti m e it w o u l d h a v e

b e e n t h e A c t in g N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a t th a t ti m e w a s it G e n e r a l M k w a n a z i ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A n d in r e g a r d to B a r n a r d is i t th e s a m e
p e r s o n – t h e A c ti n g N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r w h o w o u l d h a v e h a d t h e
d e c is i o n – th e p a r t t o m a k e t h e d e c is io n a s w e ll ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair with regards to him it would

h a v e b e e n t h e D iv is i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r it w o u ld h a v e b e e n s u ffic i e n t a t
10

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e i ts e l f j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir I h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d th a t w e

h a v e e x c e e d e d th e ti m e o n o n e o ’c l o c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t g u i d e d b y y o u C h a ir.

Ms R o e lo f s e I m e n t i o n e d to M s S e p t e m b e r t h is

m o r n in g t h a t I h a v e s o m e m a t t e r t h a t I n e e d t o a t te n d t o a n d w o u ld l ik e
u s t o a d j o u r n e a r li e r t h a n n o r m a l .

N o r m a lly I a d jo u r n a t f o u r.

I

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t to m o r r o w is s ti ll a n o t h e r d a y th a t is s c h e d u l e d f o r y o u r
20

e v i d e n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t M s S e p t e m b e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s C h a ir.

I w a s th i n k i n g t h a t if i t i s f in e w i th y o u t h e n

m a y b e w e c o u ld a n d a ls o w i t h M s S e p t e m b e r w e c o u ld t a k e t h e l u n c h
b r e a k a t t w o a n d c o n t i n u e a n d c o v e r s o m e g r o u n d a n d t h e n ta k e th e –
a d j o u r n fo r t h e d a y a t t w o o ’c l o c k a n d t h e n c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w. B u t i t

Page 99 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
m a y w e l l b e t h a t t h e r e is m o r e th a n e n o u g h ti m e t o m o r r o w I a m n o t
s u r e y o u w o u l d h a v e a b e t t e r id e a . W h a t is y o u r s e n s e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

My sense is that we could.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e m ig h t n e e d – o r m a y b e w e s h o u l d …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e m a y – w e m a y fi n i s h t o m o r r o w.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w e m a y e v e n n e e d t o s t a r t e a r ly to m a k e u p f o r …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Fo r t h e t i m e .

Ye s I w o u l d a p p r e c i a te t h a t C h a ir.
M r R o e l o fs e h o w d o e s t h a t s o u n d t o

y o u , is t h a t fi n e w i th y o u ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir p e r s o n I a m a c iv il s e r v a n t .

I f t h e b o s s s a y I c a n g o h o m e e a r ly I g o h o m e e a r ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is it f in e i f w e …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t i s f in e w i th m e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : If w e c o n ti n u e u n ti l t w o o ’c l o c k ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is f i n e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t fi n e w it h y o u ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n o t s t a r v in g t o o m u c h ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Sorry?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n o t s t a r v in g t o o m u c h ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o t a t a ll .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

I f w e c a n s t a r t e a r ly to m o r r o w I

w o u ld a p p r e c i a t e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ja , j a . O k a y a l r i g h t t h e n le t u s – le t u s c o n ti n u e

Page 100 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
if t h a t is fi n e t h e n u n t il t w o o ’ c l o c k .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M r R o e lo fs e y o u m e n t i o n e d t h a t t h e

N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r is e m p o w e r e d t o c o n d o n e a d is c lo s u r e o f
c r i m i n a l c o n v ic t io n o r c i v i l j u d g m e n t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a n o n d is c lo s u r e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

N o n d is c lo s u r e o f c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n

o r c iv i l j u d g m e n t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o I t h in k i t is t h e d i s c l o s u r e o f

c r i m i n a l c o n v ic t io n i n t h e a p p lic a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y. A n d s o to j u s t t h e n u n p a c k

t h a t to m a k e s u r e w e u n d e r s t a n d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I f o ll o w. Is i t a
condonation of …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e d is c l o s u r e o f …

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n e a r l i e r n o n d is c l o s u r e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o th e r w o r d s a d is c l o s u r e is h a p p e n i n g l a t e r t h a n
it s h o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t i s a d i s c l o s u r e o f a

c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n i n t h e a p p l ic a ti o n fo r a c u r r e n t jo b w it h in t h e S o u th
A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s . I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e p e r s o n w o u ld d is c l o s e h is
p r e v i o u s c o n v ic t io n i n t h a t a p p li c a t io n t o g e t – t o b e a p p o in t e d w it h in a

Page 101 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
s p e c i f ic p o s t w it h in t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n S e r v i c e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o – s o i t is – i t is – i t is n o t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e

s o m e b o d y w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e d i s c l o s e d a t a n e a r li e r s t a g e t h a t t h e y
h a v e a c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n f o r e x a m p l e a n d o n l y d i s c l o s e i t la t e r. It i s a
s i m p l y t h a t y o u – w h e n y o u a r e a p p l y i n g f o r a j o b y o u d is c l o s e t h a t y o u
h a v e a c r i m in a l c o n v ic ti o n a n d t h e n y o u a s k th e c o m m i s s i o n e r t o
condone …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h e n y o u g e t a p p o i n t e d C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n d o n e I g u e s s n o t t h e d is c lo s u r e b u t c o n d o n e t h e
10

f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e a c r i m in a l c o n v ic t io n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d i n t h is

in s t a n c e t h e r e w a s n o d i s c l o s u r e . I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e y w e r e a p p o i n te d
w i t h o u t th e – w i th o u t t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d is c lo s u r e o f …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

E m p l o y e r.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

K n o w i n g a b o u t th e c r i m in a l

c o n v i c ti o n a n d t h a t i s t h e c a s e d o c k e t t h a t w a s o p e n e d b e c a u s e t h e
s e c u r i ty – t h e v e t ti n g w a s d o n e o n t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts t h is – t h e s e w e r e th e
a n o m a li e s t h a t w a s i d e n ti f ie d p e o p l e h a v i n g a c r i m in a l c o n v ic ti o n b u t
n o t d i s c l o s i n g o n t h e ir a p p lic a ti o n f o r m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o t h e n th e r e h a s t o a d is c l o s u r e i n

Page 102 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
o r d e r f o r th e r e to b e s o m e t h in g to c o n d o n e ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d th e n

b a s e d o n th a t t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r c a n a p p ly h i s o r h e r m i n d
w h e t h e r t h is p e r s o n is s t ill a fi t a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n t o b e a p p o in t e d
w i t h i n th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t i f t h e r e is n o d is c lo s u r e s u c h

nondisclosure cannot be condoned?
MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

W e ll

it

means

that

the

n o n d i s c l o s u r e is n o w – i s n o w c o n d o n e d I p s o F a c t o i t is n o w c o n d o n e d
10

a ft e r th e fa c t . I t d o e s n o t e r a s e t h e m is r e p r e s e n t a t i o n th a t w a s m a d e
o n t h e a p p l ic a ti o n i ts e l f o f t h e n o n d is c l o s u r e a n d th a t i s w h e r e t h e
p r o b le m l ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P r o b a b ly t h e c o n d o n a t i o n m i g h t b e th e t e r m t h a t th e y
u s e b u t e ffe c t iv e l y fr o m w h a t I h e a r it s e e m s t h a t i t is a w a iv e r m a y b e .
S o n o r m a ll y y o u w o u l d n o t b e e m p l o y e d if y o u h a v e a c r i m in a l
c o n v i c ti o n
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

And – but if the National Commissioner says I have

c o n s i d e r e d e v e r y t h in g i t i s f i n e t h e n y o u c a n b e e m p l o y e d ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B u t w i t h o u t t h e – th a t i n f o r m a t i o n

t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r c a n n o t a p p ly h i s / h e r m in d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e h e o r s h e w o u l d n o t k n o w.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

D id n o t k n o w a n d i t w a s n o t

Page 103 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d is c l o s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n r e la ti o n to t h e f o u r t e e n c r i m in a l

d o c k e ts y o u h a v e h ig h li g h t e d t w o m a t te r s i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 6 .4 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n y o u p l e a s e t a k e t h e C h a ir

through these two that you have highlighted?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e t w o t h a t I h i g h li g h te d

d e a ls w i t h Mr N k o s a m a X i m b a a s w e ll a s M s – I d o n o t w a n t t o b e
10

d is r e s p e c t f u l b u t I a m g o in g t o b u tc h e r t h i s – t h e f ir s t n a m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Nonhlanhla.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o n h l a n h l a P o r t ia M h la t lo z i [ ? ] .

T h e s e t w o in d i v i d u a ls a r e r e l a t e d . M r X i m b a w a s p r o m o te d – r e s ig n e d
fr o m S A P S h e w a s a p p o i n te d o n t h e 6 t h A p r i l – s o r r y h e r e s i g n e d fr o m
S A P S o n th e 2 6 t h A p r i l 2 0 1 8 . H e w a s p r o m o t e d fr o m C o n s ta b le L e v e l 4
t o C o l o n e l L e v e l 1 2 in t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts – 2 5 0 a p p o in t m e n t p r o c e s s .

He

d i d n o t d i s c l o s e h i s c r i mi n a l c o n v ic ti o n o r t h e c iv il j u d g m e n t th a t h e h a d
in h is a p p l ic a ti o n . H is – a s I s a id h is s is t e r M s M h la t lo z i [ ? ] s h e w a s –
s h e a l s o h a d a c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n a n d s h e d i d n o t d is c l o s e s a m e .
20

However I want to refer back to 140 – paragraph 146.3.

Th is is n o w

s u b j e c t to m e h a v in g a l o o k a t th e a c tu a l – b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t b e e n
a b l e t o – h a v e n o t h a d t i m e to h a v e a lo o k a t t h e a c tu a l d o c k e ts . I t w a s
s e n t t o S A P S . I s e n t t o th e c o m m i s s i o n t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e s e t w o c a s e
d o c k e ts w a s a c t u a l ly r e f e r r e d to t h e N PA f o r th e d e c is io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t w h e r e i s th e u n d e r ly i n g

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d o c u m e n ts r e l e v a n t t o th e s e t w o – o r r a t h e r w h e r e a r e t h e d o c k e ts ?
T h e s e a r e c r i m in a l d o c k e ts , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I am – I

b a s e d my a ff i d a v i t o n t h e c o p i e s o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n o f t h e d o c k e ts
t h a t I h a d i n my p o s s e s s i o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d y o u r e c e i v e d th o s e d o c k e t s –

when did you receive those documents?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I r e c e iv e d – I m a d e c o p i e s o f

t h o s e d o c k e ts a t th e t i m e w h e n i t w a s r e tu r n e d fr o m t h e I G I to m y o ffi c e
10

f o r th e I G I t o m a k e a d e c is io n w h e t h e r t h i s – w h e t h e r th e m a n d a t e f o r
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n l i e s w i t h t h e S A P S o r w it h t h e I G I , t h e C r i m i n a l
I n v e s ti g a t i o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so the…

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So I had copies of that – those

d o c k e ts i n m y p o s s e s s i o n f o r t h a t ti m e fr a m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so the current status of the

in v e s t i g a t io n in r e la t io n t o C o l o n e l N k o s a n a X i m b a a n d M s N o n h l a n h la
P o r t ia M h l a t l o z i [ ? ] is u n c l e a r t o y o u a s a t t o d a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

E x a c tly C h a ir.

A s I s a id I

p r o v i d e d t h e c o m m i s s i o n w i t h th e r e le v a n t c a s e n u m b e r s .

They

r e q u e s t e d i t fr o m S A P S a n d I w a s a d v is e d t h a t it w a s g iv e n to t h e
c o m m i s s io n s o I j u s t w a n t to h a v e a l o o k a t i t to m a k e s u r e t h a t th e
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I h a v e n o w is t h e s a m e a s t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t I h a d a t
t h e ti m e w h e n I c o p i e s th e s e d o c k e t s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n t h i s r e g a r d w h a t is t h e c u r r e n t

Page 105 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
s t a tu s o f th e s e i n v e s t i g a t io n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : W e l l C h a ir fr o m t h e li t tl e b i t t h a t I
s e e I o n ly s a w th e fr o n t p a r t o f th e d o c k e t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It w o u l d s e e m t h a t a s I s a id I w il l

h a v e to g o t h r o u g h e a c h o n e n o w t o s e e w h a t t h e o u t c o m e w a s b u t i t
w o u ld s e e m fr o m w h a t I – fr o m m y f ir s t g l a n c e th a t m o r e d o c k e t s w e n t
t o t h e N PA f o r a d e c is i o n t h a n – t h a t w a s i n – th a t h a s b e e n i n d ic a t e d
in t h e S A P S C r i m i n a l A d m i n is tr a ti o n S y s t e m .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o th e q u e s ti o n r e g a r d i n g t h e

m a t t e r b e in g w i t h d r a w n is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i f it w a s b e f o r e th e N PA a
d e c is i o n m i g h t h a v e b e e n t a k e n r e g a r d i n g th e f a c t t h a t t h e r e is n o t
s u ffi c i e n t e v id e n c e t o c o n t i n u e w h ic h t h e n d e a ls w i t h t h e a p p l ic a t i o n
it s e l f. I n te r m s o f t h a t m is r e p r e s e n t a t i o n . S o I w il l h a v e t o h a v e a l o o k
at that.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you. We are on page 45 now

o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u n o w fo c u s t w o s p e c i fi c in v e s ti g a t io n s . T h e
r o a d m a p h o w e v e r to t h e r e s t o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t r e a l ly t a lk s t o t h e
20

in t e r fe r e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e e n c o u n t e r e d i n y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s , is t h a t
r ig h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d is i t t o b e u n d e r s to o d t h a t t h is

in t e r fe r e n c e w a s n o t o n ly t h r o u g h i n d iv id u a ls r e p r e s e n t in g in s t i tu t io n s
b u t a l s o t h r o u g h p e o p le t h a t y o u w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g a t th e ti m e ?

Page 106 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Is i t a l s o t o b e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e

in t e r fe r e n c e w a s s p e c i f ic to c e r t a in m a t t e r s o r in t o th e b i g g e r m a tt e r o f
y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n t o t h e a b u s e o f S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t w a s – i t r e la t e d t o t h e

b i g g e r m a t t e r o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e – i n v e s ti g a ti o n to t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t a n d I – a n d I a m o f th e o p in i o n t h a t th e r e a s o n w h y
t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is t h e f a c t th a t i f i t w a s o n ly – o n l y a ff e c t e d G e n e r a l
M d lu li a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s I d o n o t t h in k w e w o u l d h a v e h a d t h e
10

p u s h b a c k t h a t w e h a d i n t e r m s o f t h is in v e s ti g a ti o n .

Because it goes

b e y o n d t h o s e tw o i n d i v i d u a ls .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e c a n t h e n l o o k to t h e f ir s t

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th a t is a t p a r a g r a p h M w h ic h i s t i tl e d T h e S p e c ia li s e d
C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s U n i t , C r i mi n a l Pr o c e e d i n g s , G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
Colonel Barnard.

Pl e a s e r e m i n d t h e C h a ir t o w h i c h i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h i s

r e fe r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w i ll d o s o . C h a ir j u s t b e f o r e I

a n s w e r t h a t q u e s ti o n I j u s t w a n t to in f o r m t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e a ll e g a ti o n s
t h a t I r e f e r to i n t h e p r e v i o u s p a r t w h a t I t e s ti f ie d n o w is in d o m a i n – is
20

in t h e d o m a i n o f t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e . I h a v e w r i t te n m a n y
memorandums.

I i n f o r m e d t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t r e g a r d i n g th e s e

a l le g a ti o n s . I t i s n o t a q u e s t io n t h a t th is i s n e w. T h e s e a l le g a ti o n s a r e
k n o w n t o th e m . S o i t – th a t is w h y th is is – to m e i t is a v e r y i m p o r ta n t
is s u e .

I t is t h e f a c t t h a t t h is h a s b e e n k n o w n i t n o t s o m e t h i n g n e w

w i t h i n th e c ir c le s o f th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e F o r c e .

Page 107 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d I t h i n k t h i s is j u s t – th is is

t h e p r e c u r s o r f o r th e e v id e n c e t h a t I a m g o i n g to – to g iv e n o w
r e g a r d in g w h a t w e d i d a n d w h a t w e tr i e d t o d o to g e t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n
o r th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s fi n a l is e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e .

N o I t h i n k th e l e g a l t e a m w i ll

n e e d to g e t a ll t h e i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m y o u i n te r ms o f w h e r e e x a c tl y y o u
h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n c o o p e r a ti o n o n m a t t e r s t h a t a r e y o u k n o w y o u
s h o u l d b e g e t ti n g c o o p e r a t i o n a n d a s lo n g a s t h e y a r e d e fi n i t e l y
10

r e l e v a n t f o r u s th e c o m m i s s io n w il l s e e k t o g e t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts a n d i f
s o m e b o d y b e li e v e s t h a t t h e r e a r e p r o p e r l e g a l g r o u n d s w h y t h e
c o m m i s s io n s h o u l d n o t g e t th e m t h e n t h e y w i ll h a v e t o t e l l u s t h o s e
g r o u n d s . J a . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e c o n te x t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e n o w i s

s p e c i f ic to t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d y o u a r e a b o u t t o ju s t c la r i fy

w h a t th is i n v e s t ig a t io n c o n c e r n e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir i f I m a y ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u d o t h a t m a y I j u s t c h e c k w h e t h e r t h i s f a l ls
u n d e r t h e – th a t ju d g m e n t o f J u d g e M u r p h y t h a t is i n t h e – i n t h e
bundle.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w e n t u p t o t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

Page 108 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir i t fa ll s u n d e r t h a t ja .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s . I n f a c t t h a n k s to y o u J u d g e i f

w e c o u l d t h e n ta lk to w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m s o r r y.

C h a ir …
T h o s e m a t te r s w h e r e t h e r e a r e

ju d g m e n t s th e r e w o u ld b e c e r t a i n fi n d i n g s t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n m a d e
w h ic h s t a n d – I th i n k th e w a y y o u d e a l w i t h t h e m n e e d n o t b e a s i f i t i s
a new matter that has not gone through the courts.
10

There may be

c e r t a i n p e r s p e c t iv e s t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t m a y n o t
have been important for the courts.

B u t I t h in k i t is i m p o r t a n t j u s t t o

k n o w w h e r e th e r e a r e fi n d i n g s t h a t h a v e m a d e a n d t h e r e is n o
c o n tr o v e r s y a b o u t t h o s e fi n d i n g s s o t h a t w e d o n o t s p e n d t o o m u c h ti m e
o n m a t t e r s w h e r e fi n d i n g s h a v e b e e n m a d e a n d t h e r e is n o c o n tr o v e r s y
about them.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

As

it

pleases

C h a ir.

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h is p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e is s p e c i f ic t o t h e i n te r f e r e n c e
t h a t M r R o e l o fs e e n c o u n t e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h is m a t te r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

But now…

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e fo c u s is m o r e o n t h e in t e r f e r e n c e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O n t h e i n te r f e r e n c e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 109 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

s p e c i f ic a l ly

th a t

th a t

in t e r fe r e n c e w a s b o r n e o u t o f th e o ff ic e o f t h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s c o m p a r e d t o in t e r f e r e n c e s h e

e n c o u n te r e d e ls e w h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t i s f i n e . T h a t i s fi n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

An d so thank – through your

d ir e c t io n C h a ir is i t c o r r e c t t h a t o n t h e 1 7 t h N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 G e n e r a l
M d lu li m a d e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t o A d v o c a t e L a w r e n c e Mr w e b e w h o w a s
10

t h e H e a d o f t h e S p e c i a li s e d C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e U n i t a t t h e t i m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th a t is c o r r e c t . H e m a d e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o A d v o c a te M r w e b e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

And did you have sight of…

I a m s o r r y I th i n k i n o r d e r s o t h a t e v e r y b o d y

u n d e r s t a n d s a n d t h o s e w h o w i ll r e a d t h e t r a n s c r i p t u n d e r s t a n d . I t h i n k
ju s t c o n n e c t t h e is s u e .

W h a t w a s – w h a t c h a r g e s w e r e p e n d in g o r –

b e f o r e th e M r M r w e b e – A d v o c a t e M r w e b e in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h M r M d l u li
w a s – J e r o m e M d l u l i w a s m a k i n g r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s . L e t u s h e a r t h a t fi r s t
t h e n w e c a n u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s w e r e a b o u t .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
c a t e g o r ie s ?

C h a ir i f I m a y b r e a k i t i n t o th r e e

Th e fir s t c a te g o r y r e l a te s t o t h e Vo s l o o r u s c a s e w h ic h is

the murder case.

It s ta n d s s e p a r a t e .

T h e s e c o n d c a te g o r y is th e -

w h a t I w o u l d c a l l t h e l o o t in g o f t h e S S A f u n d .
CHAIRPERSON: The?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e l o o t in g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s

Page 110 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
Account.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, ja.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

B u t t h a t o n e is – i s s p li t i n to tw o .

I n i ti a l ly w h e n w e s t a r t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n in t o t h i s – i n t o t h e a c c o u n t i t
r e l a t e d to t h e v e h i c l e – t h e v e h ic l e th a t G e n e r a l M d lu li – h is p r iv a te
v e h ic l e t h a t w a s s o ld a n d tr a d e d i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a d e d in .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Tr a d e d in .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o t h e – th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r t h e

c r i m i n a l m a t te r w a s fo c u s e d i n te r ms o f th a t s p e c i fic tr a n s a c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h a t is w h a t w e n t t o c o u r t s o

t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t w e ta lk in g a b o u t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e l a t i n g
t o t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n o n l y a n d t h e – a n d t h e t r a d e in o f t h e v e h ic le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Because we did not have at that

ti m e t h e c o m p l e te p i c t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o th e r m a t t e r s .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B e c a u s e w e h a v e n o t s p o k e n to

Naidoo at that point in time.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

O k a y.

A n d – a n d in r e g a r d t o t h a t

tr a n s a c ti o n w a s i t a c h a r g e o f fr a u d o r w h a t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

The charges were as far as I can

r e m e m b e r fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n C h a ir.

Page 111 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e t h e n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

S o i t is o n th e

1 7 t h N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 t h a t th e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e to A d v o c a t e
Lawrenc Mrwebe?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t r ig h t ? A n d i t is c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t A d v o c a t e
M r w e b e r e c o m m e n d e d o r r a t h e r d ir e c te d t h a t t h e c h a r g e s b e w i t h d r a w n
w h ic h w a s t h e s u b je c t o f c o u r t d e c i s i o n s th a t w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly t a k e n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I d o n o t k n o w if c o m m o n c a u s e is a c c u r a t e o r d o
y o u n o t w a n t t o s a y i t w a s a fi n d i n g m a d e b y th e c o u r t s ?

Because I

t h i n k M r M r w e b e w a s s a y i n g s o m e t h in g e ls e i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t w a s – t h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e n t o

c o r r e c t f o r t h e r e c o r d i t w a s a f i n d in g t h a t t h e d e c is i o n to w i th d r a w w a s
in f a c t o v e r t u r n e d b y th e c o u r ts .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e lo o k t o A d v o c a t e Mr w e b e ’s

m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h s u b s t a n t ia t e s t h e d e c i s io n t h a t h e to o k t o w i t h d r a w
t h e c h a r g e s c a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 1 4 0 p le a s e .
20

Is t h is t h e

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s d r a ft e d b y A d v o c a t e M r w e b e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
It does inform that the date of this

m e m o r a n d u m is d a te d 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Is i t a l s o c o r r e c t th a t t h e r e w a s a n

Page 112 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
is s u e

around

this

date

w h ic h

was

interrogated

in

the

Mokgoro

Commission?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

The 4th

D e c e m b e r is o n a S u n d a y a n d a s fa r a s I c a n r e m e m b e r th e t e s ti m o n y
o f A d v o c a t e M r w e b e i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n o n th e 5 t h w h i c h is t h e
M o n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Oh.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t t h e r e w a s a ls o a n i n t e r r o g a t i o n

during the Mokgoro Commission.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
O n w h e th e r o r n o t t h e c o n s u l ta t io n

h e d i d w a s d o n e s o ti m e o u s ly ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
I f I c o u ld a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e o r

r a th e r j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d t h a t t h e – t h is m e m o r a n d u m s u b je c t ti t le i s
C o n s u lt a ti v e N o t e in t e r m s o f t h e S e c t io n 2 4 .3 o f t h e N a t io n a l
P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i t y A c t 3 2 o r 1 9 9 8 N PA A c t o n t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o f
L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M d l u l i c a s e n u m b e r 111 // 1 3 7 / 2 0 11 . I f I a s k y o u t o
turn to page 141.
20

S e c o n d p a r a g r a p h th ir d l in e . C a n y o u p l e a s e r e a d

t h a t – t h e r e s t o f th a t p a r a g r a p h i n t o t h e r e c o r d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t s t a r ts w i t h th e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s ?

Correct.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
“ T h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a r e f o r th e w i th d r a w a l o f t h e
c r i m i n a l c a s e a g a i n s t th e i r c li e n t b a s e d o n th e

Page 113 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
g r o u n d s t h a t t h e i n s ti t u ti o n o f a n i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d
p r o s e c u t i o n a g a in s t h i m is a n a b u s e o f t h e C r i m i n a l
J u s t ic e Sy s t e m . C o n s ti t u te s a g r o s s a b u s e o f p o w e r
a n d a u t h o r i ty a n d t h a t t h e ir c li e n t w il l n o t r e c e i v e a
f a ir tr i a l . T h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s d o c u m e n t t h e r e f o r e is
t o d e a l w i t h a n d r e c o r d a d e c is io n o n t h e m a t t e r. I t
is t h e f u r th e r a i m th a t t h e d o c u m e n t s h a ll s e r v e a s a
c o n s u l t a tiv e d o c u m e n t w i t h t h e D i r e c t o r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s N o r t h G a u te n g a s r e q u ir e d b y S e c ti o n
2 4 . 3 o f t h e N PA A c t . ”

10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 3 i t is d o c u m e n t e d th a t

a c e r t a i n L ie u te n a n t C o lo n e l P e te r J a n s e V ilj o e n w a s t h e i n v e s ti g a to r i n
t h is m a t t e r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair he was one of the members

– h e w a s t h e m e m b e r th a t – th a t c a m e w i t h m e to G a u t e n g . H e w a s t h e
o n e t h a t d r a f t e d t h e a ff i d a v i t i n r e s p e c t o f w h a t Mr M r w e b e – A d v o c a t e
M r w e b e a r e r e fe r r i n g t o y e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o t h i s is c e r ta in ly a m a t t e r t h a t y o u

w e r e in v o lv e d i n a s w e l l?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s , y e s C h a ir t h a t is – t h a t is

o u r m a t t e r i f I c a n – i f I c a n p u t i t li k e t h a t .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

After

d e a li n g

then

with

the

b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e m a t t e r to w h ic h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g i v e n s o m e o f t h a t
e v i d e n c e a n d a f t e r a d d r e s s in g th e b a s is f o r t h e r e q u e s t f o r th e
w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e s w h ic h y o u h a v e j u s t s u m m a r is e d A d v o c a te

Page 114 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
M r w e b e d e a l s w i t h th e p r o s e c u to r ’s r e p o r t a n d d o c k e t b e f o r e t u r n i n g to
a n a n a ly s is a n d h i s c o n c l u s i o n a t p a g e 1 4 5 o f t h i s d o c u m e n t. C a n I a s k
y o u t o r e a d p a r a g r a p h 1 3 a n d 1 4 p le a s e i n t o t h e r e c o r d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 1 3 :
“ T h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s i n t h e fir s t p a r t s u g g e s t th a t
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d p r o s e c u ti o n o f M d l u l i i n t h e
m a t t e r is f o r - is fo r a n u lt e r io r p u r p o s e .

I n t h is

r e g a r d a n d w i th o u t e x p r e s s in g a n y o p i n i o n w h e r e
t h is h a s to b e t r u e o r n o t I th in k o u r la w is v e r y
10

c le a r i n t h is r e g a r d a s t h e c o u r t s h a v e s ta t e d t h a t i n
t h e - th a t t h e m o tiv e b e h i n d t h e p r o s e c u ti o n is
ir r e l e v a n t a n d s u c h a n i m p r o p e r o r u l t e r i o r - u l te r i o r
m o t iv e d o e s n o t a ff e c t t h e p r o s e c u ti o n a g a in s t
person.

S u c h p r o s e c u ti o n w i ll b e w r o n g fu l i f i n

a d d it i o n th e r e a r e - th e r e a r e n o r e a s o n a b l e a n d a n d p r o b a b l e g r o u n d s fo r s u c h p r o s e c u ti o n - i f i n
a d d it i o n t h e r e a r e n o r e a s o n a b l e g r o u n d s - n o
r e a s o n a b l e a n d p r o p e r g r o u n d s f o r s u c h i n th e
p r o s e c u t i o n . I r e fe r i n t h is r e g a r d to t h e c a s e o f t h e
20

N D P P v s Z u m a ( S C A ) 5 7 3 / 0 8 - ( p a r a g r a p h s 3 7 to
38).

T h e s e c o n d p a r t / b a s i s o f t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s

w h ic h r e la t e s t o f a ir n e s s o f t h e tr ia l i s o n e - is t h e
o n e t h a t s e e m s t o s u g g e s t th a t t h e r e w e r e n o
reason

and

-

and

probable

prosecution against Mdluli.

grounds

for

such

I n m y v ie w t h is is t h e

Page 115 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
p a r t t h a t m e r it s c l o s e a t te n t io n .

Clearly from the

a ffi d a v i t f r o m L Vi lj o e n w h ic h w a s u s e d a s t h e b a s is
for the warrant of arrest as well as in the docket
t h e r e is n o e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t M d l u li . T h e o n ly th in g
o n e fi n d s is th e o p i n i o n e x p r e s s e d b y Vi lj o e n in h i s
a ffi d a v i t

th a t

the

inference

is

ir r e s is t ib le

that

B a r n a r d a n d M d lu li tr a n s p ir e d to u s e t h i s m o n e y t o
c o v e r M d l u li ’s d e b t . T h i s in i t s e l f a m o u n t s - th is t h is in it s e l f a m o u n ts to fr a u d a n d t h e f t . ”
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d o f i m p o r t a n c e is p a r a g r a p h 1 7

w h ic h I a s k y o u t o r e a d a s y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y r e f e r r e d t o in y o u r
a ffi d a v i t a s w e ll .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir it s t a t e s th e fo ll o w i n g :
“ H o w e v e r b e c a u s e o f t h e v ie w I h o l d o f t h e m a t te r I
d o n o t p r o p o s e t o tr a v e r s e th e m e r it s o f t h e c a s e
a n d t h e o th e r q u e s ti o n s - a n d o t h e r q u e s t io n s
f u r th e r.

W h e t h e r t h e r e w a s e v id e n c e in t h e m a t te r

o r n o t is i n my v i e w n o t i m p o r t a n t f o r my d e c i s i o n in
t h e m a t t e r. T h e p r o p o s i t io n w h i c h I a l lu d e - a ll u d e
20

t o b e l o w s h o u l d a lo n e a n d w i t h o u t a n y f u r t h e r a d o
b e d i s p o s i ti v e o f t h e m a tt e r. ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n la s t ly a t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 . I t is
w i t h y o u r l e a v e it r e a d s :
“ M d l u li a n d B a r n a r d a r e m e m b e r s o f t h e C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e D i v i s i o n o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o lic e

Page 116 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
S e r v ic e w h ic h is p a r t o f t h e i n t e lli g e n c e s tr u c t u r e s
o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d a s th e i r c o n d u c t a n d a c t iv i ti e s
a r e s u b je c t to t h e l a w s , r e g u l a ti o n s , p o l ic i e s a n d
p r o c e d u r e s g o v e r n in g t h e in t e l li g e n c e c o m m u n i t y. ”
A t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 th e fi n a l d e c is i o n in t h i s r e g a r d is r e c o r d e d
to be that:
“ I t w il l b e n o t e d t h a t t h e o ff e n c e s f o r M d lu li a s
c h a r g e d f a ll s q u a r e l y w i t h i n th e m a n d a t e o f t h e
I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l a s q u o te d . ”
10

A n d p a r a g r a p h 2 1 t a lk s a b o u t :
“ T h e p r a c ti c a l a n d p o l ic y c o n s id e r a ti o n s f o r t h e
I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l t o b e t h e o n e t o d e a l w it h t h e
m a t t e r. ”
I f I c a n a s k y o u la s tly o r r a t h e r o n t h is p o i n t w h a t w a s y o u r
c o n c e r n i n r e l a t i o n to th e o ffi c e o f th e I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l o r r a th e r w h a t
was

your

concern

in

r e la t io n

to

th e

involvement

of

the

I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l i n th is m a t t e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair I had no concern about the

in v o lv e m e n t o f t h e I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l i n t h is m a tt e r.
20

I n f a c t th e

I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l a f t e r t h i s in f o r m a t io n c a m e t o li g h t w e - I w a s
in t e r v ie w e d e x t e n s i v e ly b y th e In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l b u t th is w a s a f te r
N a i d o o - C o lo n e l N a i d o o ’s i n fo r m a ti o n c a m e t o li g h t b u t p r io r t o th a t I
did not have a - a view on the Inspector-General itself or whether it is
t h e ir m a n d a t e o r n o t .
F o r m e i t w a s a q u e s ti o n is t h is g o i n g t o b e in v e s ti g a t e d a n d

Page 117 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a r e - t h e p e o p l e a r e g o i n g t o b e h e l d a c c o u n t a b l e . S o w h e n M r M d lu li M r - A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i s ta t e d t h a t i t f a l ls u n d e r t h e - th e a u s p ic e s o f t h e
Inspector-General I did not agree with that because I thought it was
w r o n g . I t - i t d o e s n o t s ta t e w i t h i n th e I G I Ac t o r t h e O v e r s i g h t A c t th a t
t h e m a n d a t e to in v e s t i g a t e a c r i m i n a l m a t t e r l ie s w i th t h e I G I .
So - but I - I did not have a problem that the matter be
r e fe r r e d to th e I G I f o r a d e c is io n a n d h e n c e t h a t w e r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e
I G I b e in v o lv e d a n d th a t - a n d t h a t s h e m a k e - m a k e s a d e c is i o n o n - o n
the
10

assumption

that

or

on

the

-

based

on

the

reason

that

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a d v i s e d a n d t h a t i s w h y th e d o c u m e n ta t io n o r t h e
d o c k e ts w a s r e f e r r e d t o th e I G I f o r - f o r e x a c tl y t h a t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If I can ask you at page 1-4-8

p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . N o t w i t h s ta n d i n g y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e in v o lv e m e n t
o f t h e I G I A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i d i d n o t s h a r e y o u r v i e w in th a t a t p a r a g r a p h
2 2 s i x li n e s d o w n b e g in n in g w i t h a n y i n v e s ti g a ti o n c a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d
t h a t p a r t in t o th e r e c o r d p le a s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : “ A n y in v e s t i g a t io n o f t h e
c r i m e a s i n t h e p r e s e n t c a s e w o u l d b e f u ti l e w it h o u t
t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f t h e I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l a s th e
20

tr a n s a c ti o n s w h ic h M d l u l i i s c h a r g e d w i th c a n o n ly
b e e x p la i n e d in t e r m s o f th e i n t e r n a l a p p lic a b l e
p r o c e d u r e s , p o l ic i e s , p r o c e s s e s a n d s y s te m s w h ic h
t h e o r d i n a r y in v e s ti g a t o r h a s n o a c c e s s t o .

One

m a y a s k w h y t h e p o l ic e f a il e d t o e x e c u t e s e a r c h
w a r r a n ts . ”

Page 118 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

then

at paragraph 1-4-9 -

paragraph - page 1-4-9 paragraph 26.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
face

of

it,

it

“ I a m a f r a id t h a t o n t h e

appears

th a t

the

manner

th e

in v e s t i g a t o r s w e n t a b o u t d e a li n g w it h t h is m a t t e r
a s s is t e d

by

the

members

of

the

N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r i ty m a y p o s s ib ly b e i n b r e a c h o f
t h e S e c u r i ty L e g is l a t i o n .

However as it appears

that everybody concerned in this matter must have
c o m m i t t e d a b o n a fi d e e r r o r o f l a w i n t h i s r e g a r d . I t

10

is n o t t o o l a te t o r e m e d y t h e s i t u a t i o n b y r e f e r r i n g
t h e m a t te r t o t h e I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l i n t e r m s o f
S e c t io n 7 o f th e Ac t . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
in s t r u c t i o n

th a t

th e

charges

A n d a c c o r d in g ly t h e - i t w a s h is
be

w i th d r a w n

against

b o th

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d i m m e d i a t e ly ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Did

you

have

sight

of

G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s r e p r e s e n ta t io n s ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I d i d h a v e s ig h t o f th o s e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And we are back at page 45 of your
a ffi d a v i t .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I ju s t n e e d t o c la r i fy I d id n o t h a v e
- I d id n o t h a v e s i g h t o f t h e r e p r e s e n ta t i o n s a t th e ti m e .

Page 119 of 134

I o n ly h a d

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
s ig h t o f i t a f te r w a r d s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And were there any …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u o n ly - I a m s o r r y. Yo u o n l y h a d s i g h t o f … ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O f t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s a ft e r w a r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h l a t e r.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A f t e r a d e c is i o n w a s ta k e n a lr e a d y
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s t h e o n ly t i m e I - I h a d s ig h t
10

of those …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : R e p r e s e n ta t io n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e - I a m s o r r y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h e - is t h e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e n o t t h a t b e fo r e t h e

N PA w o u l d m a k e a d e c is i o n s u c h a s t h a t t h e y w o u l d fa v o u r y o u w i th
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d a s k f o r y o u r c o m m e n t o r d o e s th a t s o m e t i m e s
happen but sometimes does not happen?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i t - i t h a p p e n s s o m e ti m e s

b u t I m e a n t h e r e i s s ti ll a d e c is i o n t h a t - t h a t h a s t o b e m a d e b y t h e
N PA . I c a n - I c a n m e r e l y c o m m e n t o n i t b u t w h a t I d o e x p e c t a n d t h a t
is - th a t i s - t h a t n o r m a lly - t h a t is w h a t n o r m a lly h a p p e n s . I s t h a t i n a
m a t t e r l ik e th is w h i c h is a - a h i g h p r o fi le m a t t e r t h a t a t le a s t t h e
p r o s e c u t o r a s w e ll a s t h e in v e s ti g a t i n g o ffi c e r in t h e m a t t e r n e e d s to b e

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
c o n ta c t e d a n d n e e d s t o b e - w h a t is t h e w o r d I a m l o o k i n g fo r. N o t t a l k
t o . I t n e e d s t o b e in t e r v i e w e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s f e r r e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : J a . I t n e e d s to b e c o n s u lt e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, consulted. Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W i th r e s p e c t t o a d e c is io n t h a t is

g o i n g t o b e m a d e in t h is r e g a r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B e c a u s e th e - t h e p r o s e c u to r

a lr e a d y m a d e it s d e c i s i o n th a t t h e r e a r e e n o u g h g r o u n d s t o p r o s e c u t e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d i t is a p r i m a f a c ie c a s e a n d h e
h a s d r a w n u p a - a c h a r g e s h e e t to e ff e c t t h a t a n d th e n y o u g e t a
fi n d i n g l ik e t h is a n d i t h a s n o t b e e n d is c u s s e d w i t h y o u b e c a u s e
b a s ic a lly w h a t A d v o c a te M r w e b i is s a y i n g is t h a t b o t h m y - b o th
A d v o c a t e S m i th w h o w a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r a n d m y s e lf c o m m i t t e d a - a
crime.
20

W e d i d s o m e t h i n g ill e g a l a n d s o I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d h i m t o
d is c u s s th a t w i t h u s . I t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u r

consideration

of

th e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a t a l a te r s t a g e d i d i t h i g h l ig h t a n y - d id y o u - d o y o u
h a v e a n y o b s e r v a t io n s w h e n c o m p a r i n g o r r e c o n c i li n g t h e m e m o r a n d u m
o f A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d G e n e r a l M d l u li ?

Page 121 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
observations.

C h a ir

there

-

I

made

two

T h e o n e is t h a t G e n e r a l - G e n e r a l M d lu li in h is

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n n e v e r r e fe r r e d t o t h e I G I a s h a v in g o v e r s i g h t a n d t h e
mandate

to

i n v e s ti g a te

th e

m a t te r

and

s e c o n d ly

the

-

t h e ir

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n d e a l t w it h th e f a c t t h a t h e i s b e i n g le t u s c a l l i t t a r g e te d
a n d h e is b e in g v ic ti m i s e d i n te r ms o f t h is s p e c i f ic i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
T h a t h e is t h e t a r g e t o f a - a p lo t a n d i t d id n o t - i t d o e s n o t
d e a l w it h th e I G I . S o w h e n Mr M r w e b i s t a te s t h a t t h a t w a s p a r t o f t h e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i t w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s th a t I s a w a n d
10

w h ic h h e b a s e d h is d e c i s i o n o n .

S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e h e a c t u a ll y

g e t t h a t fr o m . I c a n n o t - I c a n n o t c o m m e n t .
W h a t I d o k n o w is t h a t t h e q u e s t io n o f t h e I G I w a s r a is e d i n
the

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s

made

to

SAPS

w it h

regards

to

d is c i p l in a r y

p r o c e e d i n g s . S o i t m i g h t b e t h a t A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i h a d s i g h t o f b o th . I
d o n o t k n o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t d i d y o u a s t h e in v e s ti g a t o r d o

t h e n o n c e y o u r e c e iv e d t h e d e c is io n o f A d v o c a te M r w e b i ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I a c t u a l ly d id n o t e v e n - I

w a s i n fo r m e d o n th e - I t h i n k t h e d a y b e f o r e t h a t t h e m a t te r h a d to g o
20

b a c k t o t h e c o u r t f o r f u r t h e r - h a d to a p p e a r - G e n e r a l - G e n e r a l M d lu li
h a d t o a p p e a r i n c o u r t. H e a n d C o l o n e l B a r n a r d . I t h i n k i t w a s t h e d a y
b e f o r e th e y a p p e a r e d .
I was informed that the matter is going to be withdrawn.

I

w a s n o t g i v e n a r e a s o n b e c a u s e I t h i n k a t t h e t i m e t h e p r o s e c u t o r a ls o
d i d n o t h a v e a r e a s o n b u t w h a t d id tr a n s p ir e a n d th is I l e a r n t

Page 122 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
a ft e r w a r d s .

I s th a t A d v o c a t e M r w e b i h a s a lr e a d y i n fo r m e d t h e l e g a l

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f G e n e r a l M d l u li th a t th e m a tt e r w i ll b e w it h d r a w n .
T h a t w a s p r i o r to h i m h a v i n g a c o n s u l ta t io n w i th t h e D P P A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t A c t s a y s . H e m u s t h a v e - h e
m u s t d o - i t is a c o n s u l t a tiv e p r o c e s s w it h h i m .

So he informed him

a lr e a d y p r i o r t o t h a t. S o a t t h e - t h e y h a d a d e c is io n a s I w a s i n fo r m e d
t h e d e c i s i o n w a s m a d e to w it h d r a w t h e m a t te r a n d t o p l a c e i t la t e r b a c k
o n t h e r o l l b e c a u s e t h e y - th e d e f e n c e a l r e a d y h a d a l e t t e r s t a ti n g t h a t
t h e m a t t e r w il l b e w i t h d r a w n .
10

S o w e - th e N PA d i d n o t h a v e c h o ic e b u t to w i t h d r a w t h e
m a t t e r o n th a t d a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d a s t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r w h a t d i d y o u
d o w h e n y o u r e c e i v e d th e d e c is io n o f A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i ?

Did you

in t e r r o g a t e

of

any

a u th o r i ty

in

r e la t io n

to

the

O ff ic e

the

Inspector-General?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r a s I - I t h i n k I h a v e a lr e a d y
t e s ti fi e d t o t h is .

I - I r e q u e s te d G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o a p p r o a c h th e

N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o r t h e Ac t in g N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t th e ti m e
s o th a t t h e m a t t e r c a n b e r e fe r r e d t o t h e I G I fo r a d e c i s i o n w h e t h e r i t
20

f a ll s w i th i n t h e ir m a n d a t e o r n o t .
I s tr o n g ly b e li e v e t h a t i t d id n o t f a l l w i th i n t h e ir m a n d a t e b u t I
w a s n o t g o in g t o g i v e t h is - I w a s - I w a s g o i n g t o - I w a s s t il l g o i n g t o
r e fe r i t b e c a u s e i f i t is a n is s u e t h e n w e n e e d t o d e a l w i t h i t a n d n e e d
t o d e c i d e w h o is - w h o i s a c t u a ll y in v o lv e d in th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n o r w h o
a c t u a ll y h a s th e m a n d a t e .

Page 123 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d o n p a g e 4 6 p a r a g r a p h 1 5 3 . Is i t
c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e I G I o r r a t h e r th e I G I
r e s p o n d e d t o G e n e r a l M k h w a n a z i ’s le t t e r o n 1 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e I G I d i d
r e s p o n d t o t h a t l e t te r. Th e I G I a d v is e d th a t t h e r e a s o n in g f o l lo w e d b y
t h e - a n d - a n d i n th is r e g a r d A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i w a s f u n d a m e n t a l ly
w r o n g a n d t h a t t h e S A P S m u s t r e fe r t h e m a tt e r - t h e m a t t e r b a c k t o t h e
N PA .

A c o p y o f t h e l e t te r is a t t a c h e d t o th is a ffi d a v it a s A n n e x u r e

KDR09.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 1 - 5 - 7

p l e a s e ? Is th is t h e le t t e r th a t y o u r e f e r t o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: For the record can I ask you to read
paragraphs 2.1, 2.2 and 2.3 into the record please?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir it s t a r ts a t 2 . 1 :
“The

In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l

of

In t e l li g e n c e

( “ I G I ”)

d e r iv e s a m a n d a te f r o m t h e C o n s t it u ti o n o f th e
R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A f r ic a 1 9 9 6 a n d th e I n t e ll i g e n c e
S e r v ic e s O v e r s i g h t A c t o f 1 9 9 4 A c t 4 0 o f 1 9 9 4
20

w h ic h p r o v i d e s f o r th e m o n i t o r i n g o f th e - o f th e
in t e l li g e n c e a n d c o u n t e r i n t e ll ig e n c e a c t iv i t ie s o f
the

i n te ll ig e n c e

s e r v ic e s .

Any

in v e s ti g a ti o n

c o n d u c t in g b y t h e In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l is f o r th e
p u r p o s e o f i n te ll ig e n c e o v e r s i g h t w h ic h m u s t w h ic h m u s t r e s u l t i n a r e p o r t c o n t a i n i n g fi n d i n g s

Page 124 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
and recommendations.

T h e m a n d a te o f t h e I G I

d o e s n o t e x t e n d t o c r i m i n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s w h ic h a r e
c o u r t d r iv e n a n d n e i t h e r c a n t h e I G I - a n d n e i t h e r
c a n th e I G I a s s i s t t h e p o li c e i n c o n d u c t i n g c r i m i n a l
in v e s t i g a t io n s .

Th e

m a n d a te

of

a

c r i m in a l

in v e s t i g a t io n l a y s o le ly w i t h t h e p o lic e . A s s u c h w e
a r e o f t h e o p i n i o n t h e r e a s o n s a d v a n c e d b y t h e N PA
in s u p p o r t o f t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f th e c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s
a r e i n a c c u r a t e a n d l e g a l ly fl a w e d .
10

W e th e r e f o r e

r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h is m a t t e r b e r e fe r r e d t o t h e N PA
f o r t h e i n s ti t u ti o n o f c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s . ”
Signed by Ambassador Advocate F D Radebe.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d th u s i t w a s a s a t 1 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 2
a n d f r o m t h a t d a t e g o i n g fo r w a r d t h a t t h e r e o u g h t to h a v e b e e n n o
m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r q u e r y in r e la t io n t o w h a t t h e m a n d a te is o f th e
I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f I n te ll ig e n c e ’s O ffi c e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d fu r t h e r t h r o u g h t h e c l a r it y o f t h e
o ffic e o f th e I G I it a ls o o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n - it w a s c l a r i f ie d t h a t i t fe ll

20

w i t h i n th e m a n d a t e o f th e p o li c e t o i n v e s ti g a te c r i m i n a l m a t te r s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is c o r r e c t t h a t t h is le t t e r r e f e r s - is
a r e s p o n s e t o th e l e t te r r e c e iv e d fr o m L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l Mk h w a n a z i.
Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 125 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d th a t l e t te r is t o b e fo u n d a t p a g e
1 - 5 - 4 . Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n p a r t ic u l a r o n p a g e 1 - 5 - 5 i n th e

s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h m e n ti o n i s m a d e o f t h e i m p o r ta n c e o f t h is c l a r i ty a s
to who holds what mandate.

C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d th e s e c o n d

p a r a g r a p h in t o t h e r e c o r d p le a s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e o n e t h a t s t a r ts w i t h :
“ I t m u s t b e m e n ti o n e d … ”
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
that

an

“It must be mentioned

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

in

respect

of

Major-

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h ic h m a y r is e - w h i c h m a y r is e
fr o m s a m e - fr o m t h e s a m e c o n c e r n s a s i n t h e
M d lu li m a t te r h a s a l s o b e e n f in a l is e d a n d i t is
proposed that we are - that we also engage on that
m a t t e r in t h e s a m e f a s h io n a s i n - a s i s p r o p o s e d in
r e s p e c t o f th e M d lu li m a t t e r. ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d t h e n t h e la s t s e n t e n c e o f t h e

n e x t p a r a g r a p h . I t - w h ic h b e g i n s …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“ It is h o w e v e r i m p o r t a n t

t h a t y o u e x p r e s s y o u r s e l f c le a r ly o n t h e c o n t e n t s o f
t h e a r g u m e n t s c o n t a in e d i n t h e l e tt e r o f t h e S p e c i a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s a s i t n o t o n l y
r e l a t e s to t h e m a t t e r s a t h a n d b u t a l s o h o w s i m il a r

Page 126 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
s i tu a ti o n s n e e d t o b e d e a l t w it h i n f u t u r e . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n y o u r c o n s i d e r a ti o n o f th e

le t t e r th a t w a s r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e O ff ic e o f t h e I G I d i d th is - d id t h e
c o n te n ts o f t h i s l e t t e r g i v e t h e c l a r i ty s o r e q u e s t e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir. T h e r e is n o c o n f u s i o n
a s to w h a t t h e ir m a n d a t e s a r e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If we could go back to page 46.

O n c e th is c la r i ty w a s r e c e i v e d b y l e t te r o f th e I G I w h a t s te p s d i d y o u
take on 23 March 2012?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair I asked that the matter be

r e fe r r e d b a c k t h r o u g h t h e O ff ic e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o t h e O ff ic e o f t h e
A c ti n g N a t i o n a l - Ac t in g N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s th e
N D P P w h i c h w a s i n A d v o c a te N o m g c o b o J i b a a t t h e ti m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Nomgcobo Jiba.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o m g c o b o J ib a .

I a m tr u l y s o r r y

a n d t h e S S U f o r a d e c is i o n f o ll o w i n g t h e o p i n i o n o f t h e I G I . A c o p y o f
t h is l e t te r i s a tt a c h e d a s A n n e x u r e K D R 1 0 w i th o u t th e a n n e x u r e w i t h o u t th e a n n e x u r e r e f e r r e d t o th e r e i n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d w i t h o u t r e f e r r i n g to i t C h a ir.

It

d o e s a p p e a r a t - a t p a g e 1 6 0 . U n l e s s y o u w is h u s t o r e f e r t o t h e l e tt e r
it s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h a t?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e l e tt e r t h a t w a s r e q u e s te d b y M r b y G e n e r a l - b y C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e t o b e s e n t to t h e N D P P ’s O ff ic e Advocate Nomgcobo Jiba.

Page 127 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is i t?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is o n p a g e 1 - 6 - 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: 1-6-0?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

This letter is dated 23 March 2012.

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

in f o r m s

to

attach

th e

A t p a r a g r a p h 2 o f t h is l e t te r i t

response

fr o m

the

Inspector-General

of

I n t e lli g e n c e ’s O ffic e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th a t th e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u h a d

r e fe r r e d to e a r li e r w h ic h is d a te d 1 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a n d w h ic h y o u r e a d
in t o t h e r e c o r d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
of

the

l e t te r

is

S o t h e n a t le a s t in s o f a r a s th e d a t e

concerned

on

receipt

of

this

l e tt e r

A d v o c a t e N o m g c o b o J i b a w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f t h e c l a r i t y o n
20

mandate?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t is w h y
I s p e c if ic a l ly a s k e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o w r it e t o t h e - th e A c ti n g N D P P
due

to

the

fact

th a t

she

has

to

r e v ie w

a

d e c is i o n

made

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d t h a t is w h y i t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o h e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o r e s p o n d e d t o t h i s l e tt e r ?

Page 128 of 134

by

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
t o t h i s l e t t e r.

C h a ir A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i r e s p o n d e d

I d o n o t k n o w - t h e r e i s a c o p y.

H e w a s a ls o a n

addressee on - on the letter itself but he responded and not - not
Advocate Jiba.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And if I can then take you to page

1 - 6 - 2 is th is t h e le t t e r th a t y o u r e f e r t o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h is is th e l e t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t b y
A d v o c a t e L S Mr w e b i
10

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l D r a m a t

d a te d
and

30 March 2012

copied

to

to Advocate G Breytenbach,

A d v o c a t e S M z i n y a th i .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e s u b je c t t i tl e b e i n g S i lv e r t o n C A S
1 5 5 / 0 7 / 2 0 11 , i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a g a i n s t L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l R N M d l u li ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : It is c o r r e c t t h o u g h th a t a l th o u g h i t i s
s p e c i f ic to G e n e r a l M d l u li th e r e w a s a n o t h e r a c c u s e d in t h i s m a t t e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d w h a t is th e e s s e n c e o f t h i s

le t t e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i f I m a y I w il l s t a r t w i th

p a r a g r a p h 2 a n d I w i ll r e a d i n t o th e r e c o r d :
“ I w i s h t o a d v i s e t h a t th e O ff ic e o f t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f I n t e l li g e n c e h a s n o o v e r s i g h t f u n c ti o n s
a n d p o w e r s o f r e v i e w w i th r e g a r d t o p r o s e c u t o r i a l

Page 129 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
d e c is i o n s . I a ls o w is h t o r e m in d t h a t t h e N PA i s a n
in d e p e n d e n t in s t i tu t io n a n d p r o s e c u to r i a l d e c is i o n s
a r e i ts s o l d p r e r o g a tiv e . ”
Paragraph 3:
“ T h e v i e w o f th e I G I fo ll o w i n g y o u r s o l i c i ta t io n s o l ic i ta t io n o f a n o p i n io n o n t h e N PA d e c is io n o n
t h e m a t t e r b a s e d o n a d o c u m e n t w h i c h t h e p o l ic e o r
a n y b o d y w e r e n o t e v e n le g a l ly e n t it l e d t o p o s s e s s
is f o r y o u r c o n s u m p ti o n a n d d o e s n o t a ffe c t t h e
10

d e c is i o n t a k e n o n t h e m a t t e r.
principle

decision

-

T h e N PA to o k a

p r i n c ip l e

and

considered

d e c is i o n o n th e m a t t e r w i t h f e a r o r f a v o u r o r
p r e j u d ic e a s i t - a s it is r e q u i r e d to d o s o i n t e r m s
o f t h e la w. T h a t d e c i s i o n s t a n d s a n d t h is m a t te r is
c lo s e d . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is

t h is

le t t e r

addressed

to

Advocate Jiba?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
Advocate Jiba.
20

m e n ti o n e d

N o C h a ir.

I t is n o t a d d r e s s e d t o

I t is o n ly a d d r e s s e d t o t h e a d d r e s s e e s th a t y o u h a v e
e a r li e r.

It

is

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l D r a m a t ,

A d v o c a t e Br e y t e n b a c h a n d A d v o c a t e M z i n y a th i .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r o r n o t t h is

le t t e r e v e r c a m e t o th e a t t e n t i o n o f A d v o c a t e J i b a ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: If I could ask you to go back to then

Page 130 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
p a g e 4 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o r r y. To p a g e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

47.

D id y o u r e c e iv e a n y i n t e r n a l

m e m o r a n d u m s t h a t w e r e p r e p a r e d i n r e l a ti o n to t h e d e c is io n o f
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I d i d .

I received an

in t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m d a te d 1 3 A p r il 2 0 1 3 - 2 0 1 2 th a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y
A d v o c a t e Br e y t e n b a c h a n d A d v o c a t e J a n F e r r e ir a D e p u ty D ir e c t o r S S U
P r e t o r i a b o th fr o m t h e S S U i n P r e t o r i a . T h e m e m o r a n d u m is a d d r e s s e d
10

t o A d v o c a t e J i b a , A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d o t h e r s .
It

requests

Advocate Jiba

to

review

the

d e c is i o n

of

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d t o - t o a l l o w t h e m t o r e e n r o l t h e m a t t e r. A c o p y
o f t h is in t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m i s a t t a c h e d t o t h is a ffi d a v i t a s A n n e x u r e
KDR12.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And then can I ask you to turn to

p a g e 1 - 6 - 5 p l e a s e ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 - 6 - 5 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
memorandum

that

was

prepared

I
by

do

C h a ir.

T h is

is

th e

A d v o c a t e s Br e y t e n b a c h

and

F e r r e ir a .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t a r e t h e k e y o b s e r v a t io n s

t h a t y o u h a v e in r e l a ti o n t o t h is d o c u m e n t b e f o r e t h e r e a r e c e r t a in
a s p e c ts to b e h i g h l i g h t e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
observations

would

-

w o u ld

be

C h a ir t h e k e y o b s e r v a ti o n o r
th a t

they

do

not

concur

with

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i t h a t t h e r e i s n o p r i m a f a c i e c a s e a n d s e c o n d ly t h a t

Page 131 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
t h e m a t t e r m u s t b e p l a c e d b a c k o n t h e r o l l f o r p r o s e c u ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: If I can …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e m e m o a t 1 - 6 - 5 ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m G Br e y t e n b a c h a n d F e r r e ir a ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

For

the

record

th is

-

this

m e m o r a n d u m is d a te d 1 3 A p r il 2 0 1 2 ?
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 1 - 6 - 8

p l e a s e ? Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h is m e m o r a n d u m r e c o r d s t h a t ?
“ W e w o u ld a r g u e t h a t t h e r e i s n o e m p o w e r i n g
p r o v i s i o n in th e N PA A c t t h a t g a v e t h e S D P P t h e
power

to

ta k e

the

d e c is i o n

to

withdraw

the

prosecution.”
I f o n e t h e n c o n ti n u e s o r r a t h e r t h e m e m o r a n d u m c o n ti n u e s t o
a d d r e s s t h e w it h d r a w a l o f th e c a s e a g a i n s t M d lu li a n d B a r n a r d a n d i n
s o d o in g a t p a g e 1 - 7 - 0 p a r a g r a p h 1 4 i t r e c o r d s i n th e fir s t li n e t h a t:
20

“ W e h o l d th e v i e w t h a t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n t o w i t h d r a w
the case against the two accused was bad in law
a n d i n fa c t il l e g a l . ”
T h r e e li n e s f r o m t h e b o t t o m th e s e n te n c e b e g i n s th a t :
“In any event the agreement at the time was a
p r o v i s i o n a l w i t h d r a w a l w i th a d is ti n c t in t e n t io n o f

Page 132 of 134

18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
r e - e n r o ll in g t h e m a t t e r o n c e th e c o n c e r n s o f t h e
SDPP had been addressed.

I t h a s n o w t r a n s p ir e d

t h a t th e S D P v i e w s t h e m a t t e r a s c l o s e d . ”
H a v i n g c o n s id e r e d t h e m e r i ts o f th e m a tt e r c o m p r e h e n s iv e l y is i t
c o r r e c t th a t a t p a g e 1 8 7 p a r a g r a p h 4 2 t h i s m e m o r a n d u m c o n c l u d e s t o
c a l l f o r t h e d e c is i o n o f t h e a c ti n g N D P P to c o n s i d e r t h e w i th d r a w a l
d e c is i o n o f A d v o c a t e M u g w e b e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, to

r e c o n s i d e r th is i s s u e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

R e c o n s id e r a n d t h e a c ti n g N D P P a t

t h e ti m e w a s w h o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Advocate Jiba.

C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S e p te m b e r to th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h
t h e c o n t e n ts o f a d o c u m e n t s u c h a s t h is i t i s n o t g o in g to b e
c o n tr o v e r s i a l w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s a y s s o y o u d o n ’ t r e a lly h a v e t o g e t
h i m t o c o n f ir m w h a t h e s a y s b e c a u s e w h a t h e s a y s i t s a y s w e c a n s e e ,
y o u c a n ju s t t e ll m e w h a t th e c o n c l u s io n i s a n d u n l e s s y o u w a n t h i m t o
c o m m e n t o n s o m e t h in g th a t i s t h e r e b u t n o t j u s t t o c o n f ir m w h a t h e
says.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

W e a r e a t o n e m i n u t e t o t w o , d o y o u s t il l h a v e a

q u e s t io n ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m h a p p y to s t o p a t t h is s t a g e .

I f y o u w a n t t o fi n i s h i t i s fi n e , i f i t i s o n e o r tw o

q u e s t io n s .

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18 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 166
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e r e i s s ti ll a b i t , th e r e is s t il l a b i t

o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t le a s t t o w o r k t h r o u g h o n t h is a s p e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e n m a y b e w e s h o u ld s to p h e r e a n d t h e n w e w i ll
c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e a t p a g e 4 6 o f h is a ffi d a v i t n o w ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e a r e o n p a g e 4 7 C h a ir, a n d w e

h a v e ju s t c o m p l e te d p a r a g r a p h 1 5 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y a n d h is a ffi d a v i t g o e s to p a g e 7 2 s o w e ’ r e le f t

w i t h a b o u t w h a t , i s i t 3 2 p a g e s o r 2 2 p a g e s ? H o w is y o u r a r i t h m e tic ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry?

H o w i s y o u r a r i th m e t ic , a r e w e l e f t w it h 2 2 o r 3 2

pages?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Not great at this time of the day

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, Mr R o e l o fs e w e w ill s t o p a t th is s ta g e , a n d w e
w i ll c o n t in u e t o m o r r o w, m a y b e w e s h o u ld s a y h a l f p a s t n i n e t o m o r r o w
r a th e r t h a n n i n e o ’c l o c k , s o le t u s s t a r t a t n i n e t h i r t y t o m o r r o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

N i n e t h i r ty it is .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y. W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 9 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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