C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

19 AUGUST 2019

D AY 1 4 7

20

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
PROCEEDINGS ON 19 AUGUST 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s M r N x a s a n a w il l g i v e

evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e h a s r e t u r n e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e
f o ll o w i n g t h e i n te r v e n t io n o f s e v e r a l w e e k s . M a y h e b e s w o r n ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t h i m b e c a u s e t h e r e h a v e b e e n q u i t e a n u m b e r
o f w e e k s t h a t h a v e la p s e d a l th o u g h i t is a c o n ti n u a ti o n o f h i s e v i d e n c e .
REGISTRAR:

P le a s e s t a t e y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

M x o l is i S a n d i le O li v e r

Nxasana.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n i n t a k in g t h e p r e s c r ib e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No I do not.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g i v e

s h a l l b e th e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p le a s e
20

r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffi r m .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t r u ly a ffir m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r P r e t o r iu s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e h a v e ta k e n t h e l ib e r ty C h a ir
a n d i f I m a y d e a l w i th t w o h o u s e k e e p i n g m a tt e r s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 2 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f t r a n s fo r m in g y o u r o r i g i n a l f il e
in t o a la r g e r fi le w h ic h y o u h a v e i n fr o n t o f y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r i g i n a l ly w e d e a l t w it h E x h i b i ts
EE1 and EE2.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e y h a v e b e e n t a k e n fr o m y o u r
o r i g in a l f il e a n d p la c e d i n th a t l e v e r a r c h fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o e v e r y t h i n g is h e r e ?
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Ye s .

We have added further

d o c u m e n ts . E E 3 i s a n a ffi d a v i t o f t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t w h i c h c o n t e n ts
n e e d t o b e c o m m e n t e d o n b y M r N x a s a n a d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f h i s
evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

E E 4 i s a ti m e li n e o f e v e n t s

r e l e v a n t t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r N x a s a n a c o v e r in g th e p e r i o d t o w a r d s t h e
e n d o f 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e b e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 1 5 . A t t a c h e d t o t h a t t i m e l in e a r e
d o c u m e n ts r e l e v a n t t o it e m s o n t h e ti m e l i n e . T h e y a r e d u p li c a t e s , th e y
can be
20

e x tr a c te d fr o m t h e f il e o r o n e c a n

g o t o t h e o r i g in a l

d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h is r e f e r e n c e d in t h e t i m e l in e .

And EE5 just for

c o n v e n i e n c e i s th e t r a n s c r i p t o f M r N x a s a n a ’s e v i d e n c e w h e n h e w a s
r e c e n t ly b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I w o n d e r w h e th e r E E 5 s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n

s e p a r a t e b e c a u s e i t is ju s t t o r e mi n d – t o r e m in d u s w h a t is t h e r e b u t
m a y b e th a t c a n b e d e a l t w i th la t e r.

Page 3 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t c a n b e s e p a r a te d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Q u i t e c o n v e n i e n tly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e c a n d o t h a t d u r in g th e

c o u r s e o f t h e d a y. I t i s n o t s e p a r a te ly in d e x e d o r p a g i n a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y n o th a t is f i n e . Yo u mi g h t w i s h to c o n s i d e r
w h e t h e r i f y o u d o n o t a lr e a d y h a v e i n t h i s b u n d l e y o u s h o u l d h a v e – y o u
s h o u l d i n c l u d e a m e m o r a n d u m th a t I t h i n k M r N x a s a n a s e n t t o t h e
10

M i n is t e r o f J u s tic e s o m e t i m e i n I t h i n k J u ly 2 0 1 4 o r A u g u s t I a m n o t
s u r e w h e r e h e w a s a s k in g t h e f o r m e r – t h e M in is t e r o f J u s tic e a n d
C o n s t i tu t io n a l D e v e l o p m e n t o r C o r r e c ti o n a l S e r v ic e s t o a s k t h e f o r m e r
– t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e ti m e t o c o n s i d e r s u s p e n d in g Ms J i b a , M r M r w e b i
a n d M r M z in y a t h i a n d s e t ti n g o u t i n v e r y g r e a t d e t a il w h a t t h e b a s is w a s
in h i s v ie w o n w h i c h t h e Pr e s i d e n t s h o u ld c o n s id e r a c t in g .

T h a t is

a ffi d a v i t – t h a t a ffi d a v i t is s o m e th in g t h a t is in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n .
mean that memorandum.

I

It was part of the record in the Corruption

Wa t c h m a t t e r, C A S A C M a t t e r t h a t w e n t a l l t h e w a y fr o m t h e h ig h c o u r t
t o th e c o n s t it u ti o n a l c o u r t a n d t h e n a ls o t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r d o c u m e n t s
20

b u t I t h i n k th a t m ig h t b e i m p o r ta n t . S o th a t is j u s t f o r y o u – f o r y o u t o
c o n s i d e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u h a v e
r e fe r r e d t o is r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e e v i d e n c e .

Page 4 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t it is n o t a t t a c h e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e s h a l l g e t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th e n t h e r e i s a s e c o n d m a t te r

C h a ir b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e . O n th e 2 4 J u n e a R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e w a s s e n t
10

t o a t t o r n e y s w h o m in o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g r e p r e s e n t e d Mr M r w e b i,
A d v o c a t e M w e b i a n d t o a p r iv a t e e m a il a d d r e s s . T h e n o n th e 3 0 J u l y
o n t h e 3 1 J u ly a n d a g a i n o n t h e 8 A u g u s t 3 n o ti c e s w e r e s e n t t o
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i i n fo r m in g h i m o f th e c h a n g e o f d a t e a n d t h is
a p p e a r a n c e t o d a y o n th e 1 9 A u g u s t . In c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t th is t i m e i t
e m e r g e d th a t i t w a s A d v o c a t M r w e b i ’s c o n t e n t i o n th a t h e d id n o t
r e c e i v e t h e o r i g i n a l e m a i ls s e n t o n 2 4 J u n e w it h t h e 3 .3 N o tic e .
d is c o v e r i n g t h a t I a s k e d fo r t h e m a t t e r t o b e i n v e s ti g a t e d .
N o t ic e h a s n o w b e e n s e n t .

On

The 3.3

T h e q u e s ti o n a r i s e s w h a t w e d o in t h e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s b u t a s I a m a s s u r e d b y th e in v e s t i g a t o r s w h o h a v e
20

c o l l a t e d a l l t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h a t e v e r y t h i n g th a t is g o i n g t o b e s a id
b y M s N x a s a n a is a m a t te r o f p u b lic r e c o r d a n d th e r e fo r e th e r e s h o u l d
b e n o p r e j u d i c e b u t i n s o f a r a s t h e r e is w e c a n h e a r fr o m M r Mr w e b i a n d
d e a l w it h i t a t t h a t s ta g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

H e k n o w s t h a t M r N x a s a n a is g iv in g e v id e n c e

today?

Page 5 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e d o e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. And …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t h a s b e e n c o n f ir m e d th r e e

ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d M s J i b a a ls o k n o w s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e – i n r e s p e c t o f M s J ib a y o u w il l r e m e m b e r t h a t

w h e n Mr N x a s a n a c a m e t o g i v e e v id e n c e l a s t ti m e M s J i b a ’s c o u n c il
c a m e a n d w e – c e r t a i n a r r a n g e m e n ts w e r e m a d e . I w o n d e r w h e t h e r in
10

t h e m e a n ti m e t h e r e h a s b e e n a n y a p p l ic a t io n f o r l e a v e to c r o s s e x a m in e M r N x a s a n a t h a t h a s c o m e fr o m M s J i b a ? D o y o u k n o w ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n y s u c h
correspondence.

T h i s is s i m p ly t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n fr o m M r N g a lw a n a

t h a t h e w a s n o t o n r e c o r d a s r e p r e s e n ti n g b u t d i d i t s i m p l y o n r e q u e s t
at the last hearing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

To r e p r e s e n t A d v o c a te J i b a ’s

r e p r e s e n t e d b y a tt o r n e y s a n d c o m m u n ic a ti o n s h a v e b e e n m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To t h o s e a t to r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . N o t h a t i s f i n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y w e t h e n p r o c e e d ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t m a y b e b e fo r e w e d o s o M r N x a s a n a y o u

e x p r e s s e d a c o n c e r n l a s t t i m e h a s i t b e e n s o r t e d o u t i n r e l a ti o n t o
b e i n g a s o l e p r a c t i ti o n e r ?

Page 6 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o t y e t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

But were you informed of the legal provisions that

m a k e i t p o s s i b l e f o r a n y w i tn e s s a p p e a r i n g b e fo r e t h e c o m m is s i o n t o
get witness fees?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o I t h i n k I s a w th a t C h a ir
w h e n I th i n k th e C h a ir m a d e a p r o n o u n c e m e n t a f te r I h a d g iv e n
t e s ti m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

During the subsequent

p r o c e e d i n g s . I d o n o t k n o w w h o w a s t e s t i f y in g o n t h a t d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh but have you had time to put in a request for

p a y m e n t o r c la i m o r a n y th in g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No I have not.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t o l d m y s e lf I w il l d o th a t
a ft e r t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh okay no – no I was just concerned because you

r a i s e d th a t c o n c e r n a s a s o l e p r a c t i ti o n e r.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o – s o th a t c a n b e – y o u c a n p u r s u e th a t i n d u e
course.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Ye s o u r in f o r m a ti o n i s th a t t h e

p a r t ic u l a r p r o v i s i o n h a s b e e n c o m m u n ic a t e d t o M r N x a s a n a b u t …

Page 7 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e c a n t a lk a b o u t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h o w f a r w e h a d g o n e la s t t i m e b u t
I k n o w t h a t i t m a y b e t h a t c e r t a in p a r a g r a p h s w e r e b e i n g s k i p p e d
b e c a u s e o f t h e a r r a n g e m e n t o r w h a te v e r. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s w h a t w e d i d a t t h e l a s t

h e a r in g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d w e w il l r e f e r a g a in t o t h o s e
m a t t e r s b r i e fly i n c o u r s e o f e v i d e n c e t o d a y w a s t o h a l t j u s t b e f o r e t h e
lo n g a d j o u r n m e n t a t a s t a g e w h e r e t h e r e w a s m e n ti o n o f a r e c o r d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d i t w a s y o u r in s tr u c ti o n t h a t
w e s h o u l d l is t e n t o th e r e c o r d i n g t o s e e i f it w a s o f a n y v a lu e a n d
a d d e d s ig n if ic a n t ly t o t h e e v id e n c e .

O u r c o n c l u s i o n b y th e w a y h a s

b e e n t h a t i t d o e s n o t a n d w e d o n o t h a v e t o p u t th e r e c o r d i n g b e f o r e –
before you.
20

A l th o u g h th e r e h a s b e e n a r e q u e s t f o r i t a n d w e w il l

provide it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u s a y y o u h a v e t a k e n th e v i e w th a t i t d o e s n o t
admit much?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I t d o e s n o t a d d m a te r i a l ly t o

the…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 8 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To t h e a c t u a l e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G iv e n b e c a u s e i t is i n d ir e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. B u t i t is a v a il a b l e ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s a v a i la b le i f a n y o n e w a n t s t o
h e a r it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e h a v e h a d a r e q u e s t a n d
w e w ill a c c e d e t o th a t r e q u e s t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h a t w a s th e s ta g e a t w h ic h
we halted evidence.

T h e n t h e r e w a s t h e in t e r v e n t i o n o n b e h a l f o f

A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d a t t h a t s t a g e w h a t w e d i d w a s w e w e n t to th e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t j u d g m e n t a n d d e a l t w i t h m a t t e r s a l r e a d y i n th e
p u b lic d o m a in t h a t w e r e o n a ffi d a v i t a n d h a d b e e n a d j u d ic a t e d b y th e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l

court

and

we

went

through

the

judgment

of

the

c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t i n r e la t io n t o i s s u e s r e l e v a n t t o t h e e v i d e n c e a n d
then we stopped.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

So we are going to go back by

y o u r l e a v e C h a ir t o p a g e 7 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t . M r N x a s a n a w o u l d y o u
p u t t h e m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r t o y o u p l e a s e a n d p e r h a p s s p e a k u p a li t t le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t t o o c lo s e I t h in k m o v e i t b a c k a g a in . J a I t h in k
then it should be fine.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d if w e c o u ld r e w i n d a l i t tl e

Page 9 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
and go to paragraph 33.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h e r e y o u s a id i n e v i d e n c e o n

t h e p r e v io u s o c c a s i o n y o u w e r e h e r e a n d y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 3 3 t h a t
a l m o s t i m m e d i a t e ly a ft e r y o u w e r e a p p o in t e d y o u r e c e iv e d i n f o r m a ti o n
fr o m t w o N PA o ffi c i a l s t h a t A d v o c a t e s J ib a a n d Mr w e b i w e r e p l o t ti n g t o
o u s t y o u , d o y o u s e e t h a t in p a r a g r a p h 3 3 ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir I s e e t h a t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u c o m m e n t th e r e t h a t t h is
10

in f o r m a ti o n w a s v o l u n te e r e d t o y o u b y t h e s e p e r s o n s o f t h e ir o w n
accord?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u te ll th e C h a i r p l e a s e
o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n g i v e n to y o u b y Mr Te r e n c e J o u b e r t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o is h e fir s tly a n d t h e n w h a t
d i d h e te ll y o u ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

M r J o u b e r t i s a r is k

s p e c i a lis t a t N PA a t t a c h e d to t h a t u n i t b a s e d i n D u r b a n a t th e N PA
20

o ffic e s i n D u r b a n .

I h a d n o t m e t h i m w h e n h e s e n t m e a n e m a il .

s e n t m e a n a ff id a v i t v ia e m a il .

He

In that email he told me of the

a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t h e h a d w h e r e h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o g o a n d p ic k u p
A d v o c a t e J i b a f r o m t h e a ir p o r t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t b e fo r e y o u c o n ti n u e th a t
a ffi d a v i t w o u ld y o u l o o k a t A n n e x u r e M N 1 a t p a g e 3 0 p l e a s e o f t h e E E 1 .

Page 10 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I s e e i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Is t h a t t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t h e s e n t
to you?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . B r i e f ly w h a t d i d h e s a y
in t h e a ffi d a v i t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Br ie f ly C h a ir h e s a i d t h a t

h e r e c e i v e d a t e l e p h o n e c a ll a f t e r a r r a n g e m e n t s w e r e m a d e fo r h i m t o
g o a n d p ic k u p A d v o c a te J ib a fr o m t h e a i r p o r t.
10

H e s a i d h e g o t a c a ll

fr o m A d v o c a te J i b a ’s s e c r e t a r y th a t i t w a s n o t g o in g t o b e h i m J o u b e r t
w h o w a s g o i n g to p ic k u p A d v o c a t e J ib a fr o m t h e a ir p o r t a n d t h e
a r r a n g e m e n t w a s t h a t it w a s n o w g o in g t o b e C o l o n e l W S M h lo n g o w h o
w a s g o i n g t o p ic k h e r u p fr o m t h e a ir p o r t. Th e n th e – i n a n u ts h e l l th e
a ffi d a v i t w e n t o n t o s a y t h a t C o l o n e l M h l o n g o to ld J o u b e r t th a t
A d v o c a t e J i b a h a d s a id t o h i m t h a t I a m n o t a g o o d p e r s o n to b e
a p p o i n t e d a s a – a s a N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r a t N PA a n d t h a t t h e y m u s t tr y –
h e m u s t tr y a n d g e t a n y d ir t a b o u t m e a n d t h e n I t h i n k t h a t w a s th e
w h o le p l a n i f I m a y r e f r e s h m y m e m o r y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y d o t h a t .

20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 3 6 . 3 it

may not be clear on the record.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Who said what to whom

according to the report made by Mr Joubert to you according to the
r e p o r t m a d e b y M r J o u b e r t to y o u ?

Page 11 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

H e s a i d C o lo n e l M h lo n g o

d is c l o s e d t o – t o J o u b e r t th a t A d v o c a t e J i b a h a d t o l d h i m t h a t s h e d i d
not think that I was the correct person for the job of the NDPP and
a c c o r d i n g t o M h l o n g o J i b a s a id C o lo n e l M h l o n g o – h e to ld C o l o n e l
M h lo n g o t h a t A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d M r w e b i s h o u ld tr y – t h e y t o l d h i m t h a t
h e s h o u ld tr y t o fi n d s o m e d ir t o n m e a s t h e y h a d d o n e i t a g a i n s t M r
Stanley Gumede.

M r S t a n d ly G u m e d e i s a r e g i o n a l c o u r t m a g is tr a t e

b a s e d i n D u r b a n w h o w a s t ip p e d fo r – to b e c o m e t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r
o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s b e f o r e a w a s a p p o i n te d a n d t h i s a ff id a v i t te ll s u s
10

t h a t th e y – a c c o r d in g w h a t J o u b e r t s a i d in t h e a ffi d a v i t J ib a a n d M r w e b i
w e r e i n s tr u m e n ta l i n m a k i n g s u r e t h a t M r G u m e d e d id n o t – w a s n o t
a p p o i n t e d a t t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u ti o n s b e c a u s e h e
w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y f lo o d e d w i t h c o m p l a i n ts a n d w a s t h e n i n v e s t ig a t e d b y
t h e M a g is tr a t e s c o m m i s s io n a n d th e Pr e s i d e n t a s a r e s u lt o f t h a t
d e c i d e d n o t t o a p p o in t h i m . T h e n t h e – it a ls o w e n t o n t o s u g g e s t t h a t
M h lo n g o – C o l o n e l M h l o n g o d is c l o s e d t o J o u b e r t t h a t t h e y h a d
a p p a r e n t ly – th e y h a d t o fo ll o w u p t o s o m e in f o r m a t io n t h a t I h a d
e m b e z z le d o r m i s a p p r o p r i a te d c l i e n ts tr u s t m o n i e s w h ic h w e r e p a i d b y
t h e R o a d A c c i d e n t F u n d a n d t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n i t s u r f a c e s d u r i n g t h e

20

c o n v e r s a ti o n i n t h e r e c o r d in g t h a t th e – Mr Pr e t o r i u s h a s r e f e r r e d to .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n a n y e v e n t t h i s is w h a t M r

J o u b e r t s a y s o n o a t h i n h is a ff i d a v i t a n n e x e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e s u m m a r is e d i t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .

Page 12 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w h a t y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t
now is attested to on oath by Mr Jourbert in Annexure MN1?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u ju s t r e f e r r e d n o w t o t h e r e c o r d i n g .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t h e r e c o r d in g is it M r J o u b e r t a n d C o lo n e l M h lo n g o
w h o w e r e t a lk i n g ?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – a n d t h a t – t h a t i s – t h a t is a l s o i n J o u b e r t ’s

a ffi d a v i t o r i t – d o e s i t – d o e s t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n g o b e y o n d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n t h e
r e c o r d i n g is t h a t i t is A d v o c a t e – i t is C o l o n e l M h l o n g o ta lk in g to
Joubert. He was not aware that Joubert was recording him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e n J o u b e r t s e n t m e t h a t
recording.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I n th e r e c o r d i n g M h l o n g o

w a s t e l li n g h i m t h a t J ib a w a n t e d t o b e c o m e t h e – w a n t e d m e o u t o f th e
– o f m y p o s i ti o n a n d t h a t t h e y m u s t w o r k h a r d a n d – t o g e t s o m e t h in g
on me.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E s p e c i a l ly th e is s u e o f t h e

Page 13 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
R o a d A c c i d e n t Fu n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d J o u b e r t h a d p r o m is e d
h i m t o h o o k h i m w i th p e o p l e fr o m t h e R o a d A c c id e n t F u n d w h o w e r e
g o i n g t o g iv e h i m i n f o r m a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A b o u t m y m is a p p r o p r ia t io n
o f tr u s t fu n d s w h ic h s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d . I h a v e n e v e r
e v e n h a d a c o m p la i n t o f m is a p p r o p r i a t i o n o f tr u s t m o n ie s a r is i n g fr o m
10

t h e R o a d Ac c i d e n t F u n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr P r e t o r i u s y o u h a v e t o l d m e w h a t th e v i e w is t h a t

the legal team has taken of the recording.

U n le s s – u n l e s s t h e r e is

s o m e r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t h a s n o t b e e n m e t p r o c e d u r a l r e q u ir e m e n t in
t e r m s o f p e o p l e I w o u l d li k e t o h e a r th a t – t h e r e c o r d i n g .
A D V J U L I E A N N H O WA R D : S u r e w e h a v e g o t it a v a i l a b le .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja – yes.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I a s k e d f o r a tr a n s c r i p t t o b e

made.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t s h o u ld b e a v a il a b l e a s w e l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e r e c o r d i n g is l e s s d ir e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th o u g h th a n th e a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 14 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e h a v e c h o s e n t o r e ly o n
t h e a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t I – I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e l ig h t o f w h a t h a s j u s t b e e n
s a i d p e r h a p s i t i s a d v is a b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e w il l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts
10

to do that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Let us then move on to your

a s s u m p t io n o r b e l ie f e x p r e s s e d in p a r a g r a p h 3 8 c o n c e r n i n g t h e
in t e n t io n t h a t w a s a t tr i b u t e d t o y o u i n r e g a r d t o r e i n s t a ti n g c r i m i n a l
c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t . W o u l d y o u t e ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t
t h a t a n d w h a t y o u b e l ie v e t h a t A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d Mr w e b e a d v i s e d in
that regard?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir m y b e l ie f – I

b e li e v e d t h a t A d v o c a t e J i b a a n M r w e b i i n r u n n i n g t h e ir [i n d is ti n c t ] to
20

g e t m e r e m o v e d fr o m t h e N PA t h e y a ls o p e d d l e d s o m e m is in f o r m a t io n
t o t h e Pr e s id e n t t h a t I in t e n d e d t o r e i n s t a t e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m . T h a t
I s a y b e c a u s e e v e r y c o r n e r t h a t I w e n t t o I w a s c o n fr o n te d b y th e s a m e
q u e s t io n .

In D u r b a n h e r e i n G a u t e n g e v e r y w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e a s k in g

m e th a t t h e y h e a r t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e Pr e s id e n t w a n t s m e o u t i t is
b e c a u s e I – h e w a s to l d t h a t I i n te n d e d t o r e i n s t a te c h a r g e s a g a in s t h i m

Page 15 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w h ic h i s s o m e th i n g t h a t I h a d n o t e v e n f o r m u la t e d t h e i n te n ti o n to d o
b e c a u s e I h a d n o t e v e n s e e n t h a t d o c k e t i ts e l f . Th e d o c k e t a t t h e ti m e
s t il l r e m a i n e d w i t h A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d s h e h a d n o t g iv e n t h e d o c k e t t o
me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th is is n o w w h a t m o r e t h a n e ig h t m o n t h s s i n c e a f te r
y o u h a d s ta r t e d a s N D P P y o u s ti ll h a d n o t b e e n g iv e n t h a t d o c k e t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Had you asked for it or you did not – had not

a s k e d f o r it ?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I n e v e r e v e n a s k e d fo r t h e
d o c k e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I d i d n o t e v e n s e e th e

d o c k e t m y s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Because it was very

s tr a n g e b e c a u s e s o o n a f t e r I w a s a p p o i n t e d i t w a s v e r y s t r a n g e o f th e
P r e s i d e n t to b e h a v e in t h e m a n n e r th a t h e b e h a v e d .

B e c a u s e a ll o f a

s u d d e n h e h a d a n a t t i tu d e a g a i n s t m e h e d i d n o t w a n t t o s e e m e a t a ll
20

a n d I g o t th a t fr o m r e li a b l e s o u r c e s .

P e o p l e v e r y c lo s e t o h i m .

B e c a u s e e v e r y o n e w a s n o w o ff e r i n g to h o o k m e u p w i t h t h e Pr e s i d e n t
w h ic h I f o u n d i t v e r y s tr a n g e a n d t h is i s w h a t I g o t f r o m a l l t h o s e
p e o p l e w h o w e r e o ffe r i n g t o h o o k m e u p w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t . A n d s o m e
o f t h e p e o p l e w e r e v e r y c l o s e t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t . J a . A n d th a t is a ls o –
a ls o – is a ls o e v id e n c e b y th e fa c t t h a t w e w il l s e e a s w e c o n ti n u e w i t h

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
o u r – w it h t h e e v id e n c e th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s r e lu c ta n t , h e d i d n o t
w a n t t o s e e m e u p t o t h e p o i n t t h a t I h a d t o b r in g a n i n te r d ic t w h e n h e
w a n t e d t o s u s p e n d m e a n d I in s is t e d t h a t I w a n t e d t o s e e h i m s o t h a t
w e c a n d is c u s s b e f o r e h e c a n t a k e t h is d r a s t ic s t e p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is a – s t r a n g e w h y – s t r a n g e w h y p e o p l e w o u l d w a n t
t o h o o k y o u u p w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d b y t h e
President.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d i f h e n e e d e d to d i s c u s s a n y th i n g w i th y o u h e

c o u l d a s k y o u t o s e e h i m a n y ti m e a n d i f y o u w a n t e d to d is c u s s a n y t h i n g
w i t h h i m y o u c o u l d a ls o r e q u e s t t o m e e t h i m .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir it w a s – i t w a s
v e r y s tr a n g e a n d i t w a s a v e r y t r y i n g m o m e n t f o r m e b e c a u s e s o o n a ft e r
I g o t t h is r u m o u r t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a n te d to – t h a t I w a n t e d to
r e i n s t a te c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h e P r e s id e n t a n d th a t t h e P r e s id e n t h a d t h i s
a tt i tu d e . I c o n ta c t e d t h e p e r s o n w h o – w h o w a s t h e l e g a l a d v i s o r th e
ti m e M r H u ll e y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

20

And I remember I had to

chase him also.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

At one point I even –

b e c a u s e I l iv e i n M i d r a n d I h a d to s t o p h i m a t t h e – o n N 1 t h a t is w h e r e
t h e r e is t h a t r e s ta u r a n t t h e B r i d g e R e s t a u r a n t .

W e h a d t o s to p – I

s t o p p e d h i m t h e r e a n d I r e l a t e d t o h i m t h a t I a m – I h a v e a p r o b le m .

Page 17 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
T h e t h i n g s th a t I a m h e a r i n g t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t d o e s n o t w a n t t o s e e m e
a n d c a n y o u p l e a s e a r r a n g e a m e e ti n g t h a t – s o th a t y o u c a n m e e t w i th
t h e Pr e s i d e n t a n d a ll t h e t i m e e v e n w h e n I m e t h i m in D u r b a n I w o u ld
a ls o m e e t h i m i n D u r b a n a n d I w i ll te ll h i m th e s a m e th in g . A n d h e w i ll
a s s u r e m e t h a t n o t h e P r e s i d e n t is v e r y c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h y o u r w o r k .
T h e r e is n o t h i n g . D o n o t w o r r y a b o u t th o s e r u m o u r s . A n d s tr a n g e l y h e
w a s t h e s a m e p e r s o n w h o t h e n a p p r o a c h e d m e – I w a s h o s ti n g a
d e l e g a ti o n – A fr ic a n d e l e g a t io n o f P r o s e c u to r s i n – in S a n d t o n a n d h e
w a s th e o n e w h o t h e n c a m e t h a t n i g h t to b r e a k t h e n e w s t h a t lo o k t h e
10

P r e s i d e n t h a s d e c id e d t o i n s t i tu t e c o m m is s i o n o f i n q u ir y in t o y o u r
fi t n e s s t o h o l d o ff ic e .

W i t h o u t h a v in g m e t t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h a t ti m e .

T h e n I s a i d w e ll i f h e h a s d e c id e d – i f h e h a s ta k e n a d e c i s i o n th e r e is
n o t h i n g t h e n th a t I c a n s a y. A n d t h a t m e e ti n g l a s t e d n o t e v e n m o r e –
n o t e v e n m o r e t h a n 5 m in u te s t h e n w e p a r t e d w a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 3 9 M r N x a s a n a y o u
r e fe r t o a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t a t a fl a t i n
Durban.

W o u l d y o u t e l l th e C h a ir p l e a s e w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th a t

m e e ti n g ?
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : It is n o t a m e e ti n g a t a fl a t
in D u r b a n b u t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o a f la t i n D u r b a n h e r e . A t t h e m e e ti n g
t h a t I h a d w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s a f t e r I s u b s e q u e n tl y
h a d m e e ti n g s w it h h i m t h a t w a s a f te r I h a d in s t i tu t e d th a t in t e r d i c t . A n d
w e a g r e e d to h a l t th e i n te r d ic t a n d w e t h e n s ta r t e d t h e n e g o t ia t io n s . I t
is o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s t h a t w e h a d – I h a d w i t h h i m w h e r e h e – a f t e r I

Page 18 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
explained myself to him that I am aware of all this campaign. I told him
o f a ll t h is c a m p a ig n . Th is c a m p a ig n s t a r t e d b e f o r e I e v e n c a m e t o t h e
o ffic e a f t e r h e h a d m a d e t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t t h a t I w a s a p p o i n te d a s t h e
N D P P.

Th e n I r e m e m b e r h e s a id t o m e y o u k n o w o n e o f t h e t h in g s

p e o p l e h a v e to l d h i m a b o u t m e i s t h a t I w a s m e e t in g M r N g c u k a ,
N g c u k a – B u l e l a n i N g c u k a w h o is th e fir s t N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b lic
P r o s e c u t io n s a n d h e s a id t h e i n f o r m a t io n th a t h e h e a r d i s t h a t I w a s
m e e ti n g N g c u k a a t a c e r t a i n f l a t i n D u r b a n a n d t h o s e p e o p l e w e r e e v e n
p r e p a r e d t o g o a n d s h o w h i m t h e fl a t w h e r e N g c u k a a n d I w o u l d m e e t .
10

A n d h e t h e n s a i d to m e y o u k n o w [ A f r ic a n la n g u a g e ] o n c e a p e r s o n
m e n ti o n s t h e n a m e o f t h a t p e r s o n – o f N g c u k a I s i m p ly g o c r a z y
b e c a u s e th a t p e r s o n r e f e r r in g t o Mr N g c u k a h e h a te s h i m – N g c u k a
hates the President.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – I a m s o r r y M r P r e t o r i u s . A r e y o u s a y in g t h a t a t
t h a t m e e ti n g …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a c tu a lly to l d t h e P r e s id e n t a b o u t t h e c a m p a i g n

w h ic h y o u c a m e t o k n o w a f t e r a s s u mi n g d u ty a s N D P P t h a t y o u s a y w a s
20

being pursued by Ms Jiba and Mr Mrwebi?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Including - did you also tell him about what

M r J o u b e r t’s a ff id a v i t s a y s …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Or not in detail?

Page 19 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir I w o u l d h a v e to l d

h i m a s w e l l e v e r y th in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And because I - remember
t h a t I g a v e h i m a ls o - th e r e c o r d i n g I g a v e h i m . T h e r e c o r d in g t h a t w e
are talking about.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you gave him a recording?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th e - t h e - y e s .

The

a ffi d a v i t I g a v e h i m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr J o u b e r t ’s a ffi d a v it ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I gave him a - a lever arch
fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h i s m e e ti n g th a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a r e y o u

a b l e t o r e m e m b e r r o u n d a b o u t w h e n i t - it w a s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

C h a ir I w i ll n o t b e in a

p o s i ti o n to r e m e m b e r t h a t m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e m e m b e r, j a .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Because - and I - I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e - y o u b r o u g h t th e a p p l ic a t i o n t o i n te r d ic t y o u r
- I th in k y o u r s u s p e n s i o n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 20 of 192

Ye s b e f o r e I - b e f o r e I

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u b r o u g h t t h a t a p p li c a t io n s o m e ti m e i n 2 0 1 4 ?
Is i t n o t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . I n 2 0 1 4 , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h e y e a r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h h i m w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n

the second half of 2014?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o if w e m a y j u s t s u m m a r is e fo r
t h e r e c o r d M r N x a s a n a . D u r i n g t h e l a t t e r m o n th s o f 2 0 1 4 y o u m e t w i t h
the former President?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t t h a t m e e t in g y o u w o u ld h a v e
in f o r m e d h i m o f d e t a i ls o f w h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e c a m p a i g n t o h a v e
you

removed

or

not

a p p o i n te d

as

N a ti o n a l

Director

of

P u b l ic

P r o s e c u t io n s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A m o n g s t th o s e d e ta il s w o u l d

h a v e b e e n t h e i n fo r m a ti o n g iv e n t o y o u b y M r J o u b e r t t o w h i c h y o u
h a v e ju s t t e s t if i e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

One of the matters that was

d is c u s s e d a t th e m e e t i n g w i th th e Pr e s id e n t i s r e f e r r e d to i n p a r a g r a p h

Page 21 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
3 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d it is a p p a r e n t t h a t t h e

P r e s i d e n t h a d b e e n to l d t h a t y o u h a d b e e n m e e ti n g w i th t h e f o r m e r
D ir e c t o r o f t h e N D P P - A d v o c a te B u le l a n i N g c u k a ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u to l d t h e Pr e s id e n t

c o r r e c t ly a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h a t t h i s w a s fa ls e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d th e
P r e s i d e n t w a s b e i n g m is l e d b y s o m e o n e ?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That

is

correct

C h a ir.

E v e n m o r e s o b e c a u s e e v e n to t h i s d a t e I h a v e n e v e r e v e n t a l k e d w i t h
Mr Ngcuka. We have never even met. We have never even exchanged
- e x p l a i n - p l e a s a n tr ie s f o r t h a t - f o r t h a t m a tt e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. W h a t d i d y o u c o n c l u d e i n
r e l a ti o n to t h e c o n d u c t o f A d v o c a t e s J ib a a n d M r w e b i a n d y o u r
a p p o i n t m e n t o r c o n ti n u e d o c c u p a t io n o f t h e p o s t o f N D P P ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M r P r e to r i u s .

I a m i n te r r u p ti n g y o u .

B e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e I a m s t ill in t e r e s t e d in y o u r m e e t in g w i t h t h e
President …
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Pr e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e . Yo u a r e t e l li n g th e s e t h i n g s a n d - a n d
h e t e lls y o u t h a t h e h a d b e e n t o ld t h a t y o u w e r e m e e ti n g w i th
M r N g c u k a i n a f la t in D u r b a n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u - y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n t h a t y o u h a d h e a r d

Page 22 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
rumours …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a d b e e n t o l d th a t y o u w e r e g o i n g
t o r e in s ta t e c h a r g e s a g a in s t h i m .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t to l d y o u a t

t h a t m e e t in g n a m e l y th a t h e h a d b e e n t o l d t h a t y o u w e r e m e e ti n g w i t h
M r B u l e l a n i N g c u k a i n a f l a t i n D u r b a n a p p e a r s to m e t o s u g g e s t th a t h e
m a y h a v e b e e n t o ld i n d e e d th a t y o u w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g r e i n s t a ti n g
10

c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h a t Mr B u l e l a n i N g c u k a w a s
t h e N D P P w h e n - w h o h a d - w a s th e fir s t N D P P …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e r e h a d b e e n ju d g m e n t s t h a t d e a l w i t h t h i n g s

r e l a ti n g to h i m a n d t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t a n d s o o n . S o d i d h e i n d ic a te
w h e t h e r h e h a d a ls o b e e n t o l d t h a t y o u w e r e c o n s i d e r i n g r e in s t a ti n g
charges against him or did he not go that far?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

N o h e d i d n o t g o t h a t fa r

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . It s e e m s t o m e t h a t i f y o u - i f h e - i f h e
20

w a s t o l d t h a t y o u w e r e m e e ti n g w i t h M r N g c u k a a n d i f h e d id n o t li k e
t h a t i t is p o s s i b l e t h a t h e mi g h t h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t m a y b e y o u w e r e
c o n s i d e r in g s o m e th i n g lik e th a t o r i t m a y b e th a t a s p a r t o f th e s t o r y.
O t h e r w is e w h y w o u l d i t b e r e l e v a n t t h a t h e b e t o l d t h a t y o u w e r e
m e e ti n g w i th N g c u k a ? Ar e y o u a b l e to s a y a n y t h in g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 23 of 192

T h a t w a s m y c o n c lu s i o n

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: That was your conclusion?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That

-

that

was

my

c o n c l u s i o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I n fa c t t o m e w h e n h e s a i d
t h a t t o m e i t a p p e a r e d a s a c o n fi r m a ti o n o f w h a t I w a s t e ll i n g h i m . T h a t
I w a s - I w a s a w a r e o f t h e - o f t h e r u m o u r t h a t is m a k in g r o u n d s
b e c a u s e I t o l d h i m t h a t I a m a w a r e o f t h e r u m o u r t h a t is m a k in g r o u n d s
10

a n d I k n o w t h a t i t is A d v o c a t e s J ib a a n d M r w e b i w h o t o l d h i m t h a t h e
w o u ld - t h a t I i n te n d e d t o i n - t o r e i n s t a te c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u d i d te ll h i m t h a t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e - p a r t o f th e r u m o u r s t h a t y o u h a d h e a r d …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th a t h e h a d b e e n to ld t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o

r e i n s t a te c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d i d t e l l h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d w h a t w a s h is r e a c ti o n t o th a t p a r t ?
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A n d o n e o f th e r e a c t i o n s

w a s - w a s t h a t h e w a s t o ld t h a t - y e s - t h a t h e w a s t o l d t h a t I a m
m e e ti n g w it h M r N g c u k a - w i t h M r N g c u k a i n a c e r t a i n fl a t i n D u r b a n
a n d th o s e p e o p l e a r e e v e n p r e p a r e d t o - t o g o a n d s h o w m e .

In fact

C h a ir t h e w h o l e s c e n a r i o b r a n d e d m e a s a p e r s o n w h o w a s p r e p a r e d t o
even do anything.

Page 24 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
I r e m e m b e r w h e n w e t r i e d to h a v e a - a n o t h e r m e e t in g - a
f o ll o w u p m e e t in g . I th in k s o m e p e o p l e p i c k e d u p t h a t w e w e r e m e e t in g
b e c a u s e th e f ir s t m e e t i n g th a t w e h a d w e h a d th e m e e t in g i n t h e K i n g ’s
house in Durban …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And I think some people

m u s t h a v e p ic k e d u p o r t h a t in f o r m a t io n m u s t h a v e l e a k e d t h a t h e
a c c e d e d t o m e e ti n g m e a n d I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t th e r e w e r e p e o p l e
w h o w e r e p u t t in g p r e s u m e o n h i m t h a t h e s h o u ld n o t m e e t w i t h m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I remember at one point

t h a t w h e n h e w a s r e l u c ta n t t o m e e t w i t h m e I s a id t o o n e o f th e p e r s o n s
that was close to him that he must not worry because he - he was told
t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n th a t I w a s t o l d - I w a s g iv e n is t h a t I w il l c o m e
t h e r e w ir e d a n d I w o u l d b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e c o r d h i m ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

To r e c o r d h i m a n d I e v e n

jo k e d a n d s a i d to - t o t h a t p e r s o n g o a n d t e ll h i m t h a t I d o n o t m i n d
m e e ti n g h i m n a k e d b e c a u s e I w il l n o t h a v e w ir e s w i t h m e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. S o - b u t w h e n y o u s a i d t o h i m y o u h a d b e e n

t o l d t h a t h e h a d b e e n to ld o r y o u h e a r d a r u m o u r th a t h e h a d b e e n to l d
that you were going to reinstate charges against him.

Did he deny

h a v i n g b e e n t o l d t h a t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

He - he did - he neither

d e n ie d n o r a d m it i t. H e d id n o t d e n y o r ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

Page 25 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e n e i th e r d e n ie d n o r a d m i t i t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e r e s p o n d e d b y s a y in g h e h a d b e e n to l d th a t y o u
w e r e m e e ti n g w i th M r N g c u k a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

I a m m e e t in g w i t h

Mr Ngcuka.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In a f l a t in D u r b a n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, a lr ig h t .

Thank you.

I i n te r r u p t e d y o u

M r Pr e to r i u s w h e n y o u w a n t e d t o …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta lk a b o u t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C l e a r l y fr o m th e e x c h a n g e n o w i t
a p p e a r s c l e a r t h a t th e mi s i n f o r m a ti o n c o n c e r n i n g t h e r e i n s t a te m e n t o f
c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a n d t h e m i s i n fo r m a ti o n a s a ll e g e d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e
m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e fo r m e r N D P P a r e i n d e e d r e l a t e d a n d c o n s is t e n t a s i n
m is in f o r m a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e j u s t to r o u n d t h is o ff I a m n o t s u r e i f I

u n d e r s t o o d c o r r e c t ly.
20

W h e n y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g t o h i m - t h a t is th e

P r e s i d e n t - a n d t e ll in g h i m a b o u t t h e r u m o u r /r u m o u r s t h a t y o u h a d
h e a r d d id y o u s a y - a f e w m i n u t e s a g o d id y o u s a y th a t y o u to l d h i m
that you knew who was - who had told him that?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d id - w h o d i d y o u s a y y o u k n e w h a d t o l d h i m

that?

Page 26 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I told him that I knew it

w a s J i b a a n d Mr w e b i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s h is r e a c ti o n t o th a t p a r t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : H e - h e d id n o t - h e d i d n o t
deny …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d n o t s a y a n y t h in g ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Yo u

make

some

c o m m e n ts

e x p r e s s in g y o u r o w n v ie w s a b o u t th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s in p a r a g r a p h 4 0 .
Wa s t h e r e a n y r e a s o n y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e w o r k e d t o g e th e r w i t h
Advocate Jiba in the NDPP?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir e v e n n o w - a n d

p e o p l e t h a t a r e v e r y c l o s e to m e I a lw a y s t e l l th e m t h a t my v i e w w a s
t h a t - a n d I h a v e t o l d J ib a h e r s e l f t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t r e a s o n th a t J ib a
a n d I c o u ld n o t w o r k t o g e th e r p r o f e s s io n a l ly a n d I s ti ll h o l d t h e s a m e
v ie w e v e n t o t h is d a y b u t t h e - I c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n th a t th e r e a s o n
w h y t a k i n g in t o c o n s i d e r a t i o n t h e a ffi d a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y J o u b e r t a n d
t h e r e c o r d i n g s i t b e c a m e v e r y c le a r t o m e t h a t J i b a w a s r e s e n t f u l
20

b e c a u s e i n t h a t a ff id a v i t y o u w i ll s e e t h a t C o l o n e l M h l o n g o s a y s t h a t i t
is n o t - J ib a s a id i t is n o t t h a t h e h a te s m e o r s h e h a te s m e o r s h e is
a g a in s t m e b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t k n o w m e a n d I a l w a y s t e l l p e o p l e t h a t
s h e h a d n o t r e a s o n to h a t e m e .
I do not hate Jiba. She does not hate me because we did not
k n o w e a c h o t h e r b u t th e p r o b le m is t h a t s h e w a s a c ti n g i n t h a t p o s it i o n

Page 27 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
f o r a l o n g p e r i o d . I th i n k o f a y e a r a n d th e h o p e s h a d b e e n c r e a t e d a n d
I t h e n g o t i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t w h e n I w a s a p p o i n te d t h e M in is t e r o f J u s t ic e
t h e n M i n i s t e r R a d e b e - Mr R a d e b e - J e ff R a d e b e - h a d p r o m is e d h e r
t h a t s h e w i ll - h e w a s - s h e w o u l d b e r e c o m m e n d - h e w a s g o i n g t o
recommend

her

such

that

I was

t o ld

that he

had

prepared

a

memorandum to the President.
I n fa c t th a t in f o r m a t io n I w a s t o ld b y M r H u ll e y h i m s e l f t h a t
t h e r e a s o n w h y J ib a i s a c t in g th e w a y s h e is a c t in g i s b e c a u s e
M r R a d e b e h a d p r e p a r e d a n a ffi d a v it . H e w a s …
10

CHAIRPERSON: A memorandum.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A m e m o r a n d u m - s o r r y. A
memorandum - a memorandum …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e c o m m e n d in g .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Recommending

A d v o c a t e J i b a f o r t h e p o s i t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u s a y t h i s in f o r ma t io n y o u w e r e g iv e n b y

M r H u l l e y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : M r H u l le y h i m s e l f y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s a d v is o r to - le g a l a d v i s o r t o t h e Pr e s id e n t?
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To t h e P r e s i d e n t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H u h - u h . S o a m I c o r r e c t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u
t o b e s a y i n g t h a t y o u d o n o t t h i n k n o w a n d y o u d i d n o t th in k t h e n t h a t
w h a t e v e r Ms J i b a m i g h t h a v e d o n e a g a i n s t y o u i n te r m s o f t h e
campaign that you say she was pursuing …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .

Page 28 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y i t w a s n o t b e c a u s e s h e h a te d y o u ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. It - i t …
CHAIRPERSON:

It w a s s i m p l y b e c a u s e s h e w a s - s h e w a n te d t h e

p o s i ti o n to w h ic h y o u h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h s h e h a d h o p e d w o u l d b e g iv e n to h e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . I t w a s n o t p e r s o n a l .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t p e r s o n a l ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t w a s n o t p e r s o n a l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t w a s n o t p e r s o n a l a t a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I th in k a ll t h a t s h e w a s

d o i n g i n - i n f a c t i n t h e a ff id a v i t i f - i f o n e r e a d s th e a ffi d a v it - th e
a ffi d a v i t o f - o f J o u b e r t.

He says that Colonel Mhlongo told him that

J ib a s a id t h e y w il l d o w h a t t h e y h a d d o n e t o - t o M r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr S t a n l e y G u m e d e .
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To M r G u m e d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

She did not know me.

I

d i d n o t k n o w h e r. S h e h a d n o r e a s o n r e a ll y t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 29 of 192

Dig.

T h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
s h e w a s i n t e r e s te d i n a n d t h e a ff id a v i ts e v e n s a y s o th a t i f I a m - in
f a c t i n th e a ffi d a v it o f J o u b e r t h e s a y s A d v o c a te J i b a s a id i t w a s n o t h e r
in t e n t io n t o e m b a r r a s s m e b u t t o g e t to fi n d d ir t a g a i n s t m e s o t h a t th e
P r e s i d e n t w i ll t a k e a d e c is i o n to r e m o v e m e a n d s h e w i ll s t a n d a
c h a n c e t o - t o g e t a p p o i n t e d o r to c o n ti n u e a c ti n g a s t h e N D P P.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . W e w il l c o m e b a c k t o t h a t
a ft e r t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t C h a ir.

W e h a v e n o w a tr a n s c r i p t o f a

p o r t i o n o f t h e - t h e r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e w i ll p l a y it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

And come back to these issues

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f t e r t h e s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

H o w in y o u r m i n d d i d t h is

c a m p a i g n a s y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d to i t c u l m i n a t e ? In w h a t e v e n t d i d t h i s
c a m p a i g n c u l m i n a t e ? Yo u r e f e r t o t h a t in p a r a g r a p h 4 1 .
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th is w h o l e c a m p a i g n C h a i r
c u l m i n a te d i n t h e P r e s i d e n t t a k i n g a d e c i s i o n t o e s ta b l is h a C o m m i s s i o n
o f I n q u ir y t o l o o k i n t o my f i tn e s s t o h o l d o ffi c e o f th e N a t i o n a l D ir e c to r
o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d d u r i n g y o u r o ffic e - p e r i o d o f
o ffic e - a s N D P P w h a t w a s t h e s t a t e o f a ff a ir s w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
a n d w h a t s t e p s d id y o u ta k e t o d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u f o u n d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir a s a r e s u l t o f a l l

w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d t h is c a m p a i g n I - I f e l t a ls o t h a t th e - s o m e s ta ff
- s e n i o r s t a ff m e m b e r s o f s t a ff - N PA s t a ff w e r e b e i n g u s e d to - t o
p u r s u e th is c a m p a i g n w h ic h I - I f o u n d u n a c c e p t a b l e a n d th is w a s - I
r e m e m b e r th e r e w a s a - a ti m e a l s o w h e r e I lis t e n e d o n R a d io 7 0 2 a
g u y w h o w a s e m p lo y e d a t N PA .
H i s n a m e w a s - I t h in k i t is P r in c e M o k o t e d i - w h o w a s t h e n
t e ll i n g t h e - t h e w o r l d t h a t th e r e a r e t w o f a c ti o n s a t N PA a n d h e t h e n
10

said that he and others - I think Jiba and - and Mrwebi and others that I
do not know - I - I regarded as the Zuma people and I - I found that
d is t a s t e fu l b e c a u s e I h a v e n e v e r b e l o n g e d to a n y f a c ti o n a t N PA a n d I
w a s n o t a w a r e o f a n y fa c ti o n b u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w h e n th e y w e r e
u s i n g - e s p e c i a l ly h i m a l s o h e w a s u s e d .
M r M o k o te d i i n - i n m y p u r s u it b e c a u s e a t o n e s t a g e h e c a m e
u p w i t h i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t h e w a s in v e s ti g a ti n g m e o f t w o m u r d e r
charges. I - I did not even know what he was talking about. We asked
h i m a b o u t t h a t a n d I s a i d t o h i m I d i d n o t w a n t t o i n te r f e r e w i t h w h a t h e
w a s d o i n g b e c a u s e i t w a s p a r t o f h i s in v e s ti g a ti o n s b u t I f o u n d - I fe l t -

20

I e x p r e s s e d my c o n c e r n t h a t I d o n o t th in k t h a t h e - h e w a s s u it a b l e t o
c o n d u c t a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h a t n a tu r e a g a i n s t m e a s th e h e a d o f t h e
in s t i tu t io n b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s I s a i d t o h i m I d i d n o t w a n t to i n te r f e r e w i t h
him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h o w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t w a s M r P r in c e M o k o t e d i .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W h o w a s l a t e r o n - I t h in k
- w a s la t e r o n - h e l a te r r e s ig n e d a t N PA w h e n h e w a s h a u l e d b e fo r e a
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g . H e r e s i g n e d a n d w a s l a t e r o n a p p o i n te d a s I s a w I r e a d i n t h e - t h e m e d i a t h a t h e w a s a p p o i n te d a s h e a d o f t h e H a w k s in
G a u t e n g . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e i s s ti ll t h e h e a d o f t h e H a w k s th e r e .
T h e n I - I b e c a m e w o r r i e d w h e n m e m b e r s o f t h e - t h e s t a ff o f
t h e N PA w e r e a ls o u s e d a n d I t h e n d e c i d e d t o c o n d u c t i n v e s ti g a t i o n s a t
- a t N PA b e c a u s e I f e l t t h a t t h is w a s in t e r f e r i n g w i t h t h e s t a b il i ty o f t h e
10

N PA .

I - e s p e c i a l ly a t t h e s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t l e v e l .

I t h e n o b ta i n e d

t h e - th e o p in i o n fr o m S e n i o r C o u n s e l , P a tr ic k E ll is - r e g a r d in g th e
v a r io u s c r i tic is m s b y t h e H i g h C o u r ts a n d t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l
a g a in s t A d v o c a t e J i b a , A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i .
I a ls o t h e n a p p o i n t e d t h e F a c t Fi n d i n g C o m m i s s io n h e a d e d b y
t h e r e ti r e d J u s t ic e o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t J u s t ic e Ya c o o b t o l o o k
in t o t h e i n s t a b il i ty a n d t h e l e a k a g e o f i n fo r m a t i o n a t N PA .

I also

prepared the memorandum that …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o th e Ya c o o b i n q u ir y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u g i v e a n y i n s tr u c t io n s t o
A d v o c a t e s J ib a a n d Mr w e b i ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I g a v e i n s tr u c ti o n s t o
e v e r y o n e . I g a v e i n s tr u c ti o n s t o e v e r y o n e to c o o p e r a t e w i th t h e - t h a t

Page 32 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
in q u ir y o f J u s tic e Ya c o o b e v e n m y s e l f b u t w e - J u s t ic e Ya c o o b f o u n d
r e s is t a n c e w i t h A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d A d v o c a te J i b a .

They refused to

p a r t ic ip a t e d e s p it e m y r e p e a te d c a lls t h a t t h e y s h o u l d d o s o .

They

fl a tl y r e f u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t i n q u ir y d i d y o u s a y w a s t o
e s t a b li s h w h a t t h e c a u s e s o f t h e i n s t a b i li ty a n d a t t h e N PA w e r e .

Is

t h a t w h a t y o u s a id ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

Th e r e w a s

s o m e in s ta b i li t y a t t h e N PA a t t h e t i m e a n d t h e r e w e r e ( i n d is t in c t) a t t h e
10

ti m e a n d I w a n t e d t h e - J u s t ic e Ya c o o b t o i n v e s t ig a t e w h o - w h o a r e
b e h in d a l l o f t h is a n d a ls o t o c o m e u p w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t io n s w h a t
should be - what should happen.

A l s o i n c lu d in g th e c r i tic is m s

o b v i o u s l y b y t h e c o u r t s - w h a t a c t io n h a d t o b e t a k e n o v e r a n d a b o v e
t h e o p i n i o n t h a t o n e h a d s o u r c e d f r o m t h e - fr o m s e n i o r c o u n s e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y th e r e w e r e c e r ta i n j u d g m e n ts o f H i g h

C o u r ts a n d t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l w h e r e t h e t h r e e a d v o c a te s n a m e ly J i b a , M r w e b i a n d M z i n y a th i - d i ff e r e n t c o u r ts o f t h e th r e e h a d
c r i ti c is e d s o m e - s o m e o f t h e m .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Each

one

c r it ic is i n g

c r i ti c is i n g a ll t h r e e o r c r i t ic i s i n g t w o .

either

where

maybe

one

A n o th e r o n e c r i ti c is i n g a n o th e r

o n e a n d th e n t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l a n d y o u to o k t h e s e
ju d g m e n t s . Yo u g a v e t o s e n i o r c o u n s e l a n d a s k e d fo r a n o p i n i o n a s t o
w h e t h e r t h e r e is a n y th in g th a t s h o u ld b e d o n e a b o u t t h a t. Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 33 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g o t th a t o p in i o n …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n y o u a s k e d J u s ti c e Ya c o o b t o l o o k a t th e

in s t a b i li ty a t th e N PA a n d th e le a k s i n - o f in f o r m a ti o n th a t w a s h a p p e n
- t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n t h e N PA a n d e s t a b li s h t h e c a u s e t h e r e c a u s e s t h e r e o f a n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a s to w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e
t o d e a l w i t h t h e i n s ta b il it y a n d t h e l e a k s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n y o u w e r e a b o u t t o r e f e r t o
a m e m o r a n d u m p r e p a r e d b y A d v o c a t e N e l?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t p o s i ti o n d i d A d v o c a t e N e l

occupy at the time?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Advocate Gerhard Nel was
a l e g a l a d v is o r i n my o ffi c e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d w a s t h a t m e m o r a n d u m
s ig n e d b y s o m e o n e e ls e o t h e r t h a n A d v o c a t e N e l ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

Ye s .

I h a d in s t r u c te d -

( b a c k g r o u n d n o i s e ) s o r r y - I h a d i n s tr u c t e d M r - A d v o c a t e G e r h a r d N e l
t o p r e p a r e t h a t m e m o r a n d u m o n m y b e h a l f b u t s h o r tl y a f te r h e h a d
p r e p a r e d i t I l e f t.

I t o o k l e a v e o f o ff ic e - I t h i n k - f o r t w o d a y s .

I

a p p o i n t e d M r H o f m e y r t o a c t w h ils t I w a s o n l e a v e a n d M r H o f m e y r
s ig n e d o ff th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d s e n t it t o t h e M i n i s te r M r M a s u th a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

Page 34 of 192

Is th a t m e m o r a n d u m

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
a tt a c h e d t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Would you look at page 34

please?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e a n a ffi d a v i t o n p a g e 3 4 Mr P r e t o r iu s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . T h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u
r e fe r r e d t o w a s t h a t tr a n s p o s e d i n to a n a ff i d a v i t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir t h e - t h e a ff id a v i t

t h a t M r P r e to r i u s i s r e f e r r in g m e t o is a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t w a s d e p o s e d t o
10

b y M r H o f m e y r i n t h e H i g h C o u r t W e s te r n C a p e D i v is i o n b u t i t r e f e r s
la r g e l y o n t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t h e s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c o n ta i n s th e s a m e i n f o r ma t io n th a t w a s i n …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th e s a m e in f o r m a t io n i n

here.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m e m o r a n d u m ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 . 3 :
“ T h e a ff id a v i t A n n e x u r e M N 2 w h ic h a p p e a r s a t p a g e
3 4 a n d f o l lo w in g d e a ls w i t h c ir c u m s ta n c e s r e l e v a n t

20

to the memorandum.”
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
The

memorandum

prepared

by

S o d o I u n d e r s t a n d it c o r r e c tl y.
A d v o c a te N e l

contains

c e r t a in

in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h w a s t a k e n t h e n b y M r W il li e H o f m e y r a n d t h e n p u t

Page 35 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
in t o h is a ffi d a v i t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Would you look at page 34?

Is

t h a t th e a ffi d a v i t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

W e w i ll d e a l w i th

e x c e r p ts fr o m t h a t t o t h e e x t e n t n e c e s s a r y l a t e r. D i d y o u h a v e d e a li n g s
w i t h th e G e n e r a l C o u n c i l o f t h e B a r c o n c e r n i n g t h e c o n d u c t o f
A d v o c a t e s J ib a , Mr w e b i a n d a ls o M z i n y a th i ?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir b a s e d o n t h e

o p i n i o n th a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m S e n i o r C o u n s e l , P a tr ic k E l lis .

Then I

r e fe r r e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e to t h e G e n e r a l C o u n c il o f t h e B a r a s k i n g th e m
t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e c o n d u c t o f t h e - o f i ts m e m b e r s - A d v o c a te s J i b a ,
M r w e b i a n d A d v o c a te M z i n y a t h i b a s e d o n th e c r it ic is m s l e v e l le d b y a g a in s t t h e m b y th e v a r i o u s c o u r ts .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d s ti ll e n u m e r a t in g t h e s t e p s

t h a t y o u to o k to a d d r e s s th e i n s t a b il it y w i t h i n t h e N PA a s y o u d e s c r i b e
it .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d y o u ta k e a n y s t e p s to

i m p r o v e th e r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d A d v o c a te s J i b a , M r w e b i
a n d M s Mz i n y a t h i?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

I - I did.

I

r e m e m b e r e v e n a t o n e s t a g e I tr ie d t o - r e a ll y t o - t o b e o p e n to t h e m .
I tr ie d t o r e a c h o u t t o t h e m .

A d v o c a t e J i b a a t o n e s ta g e I e v e n

Page 36 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
s u g g e s t e d to h e r th a t p e r h a p s w e - w e ju s t n e e d e d t o g o o u t j u s t m e a n d
h e r.

O u t fo r - fo r t e a o r c o ffe e a n d j u s t d i s c u s s a n d h a v e a f r a n k

d is c u s s io n a b o u t o u r s e lv e s a n d A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i I tr ie d m y b e s t t o
reach out. I …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll w h a t - w h a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s e f r o m M s J i b a

before you go to (intervenes)?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o s h e s m il e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : S h e j u s t s m il e d C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : S h e s m il e d a n d s h e …
CHAIRPERSON: She - she did not …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a y a n y t h in g o t h e r th a n j u s t s m il e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

She did not say anything.

S h e j u s t s m i le d , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ja.

Advocate

-

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i I - I r e m e m b e r w e e v e n h a d a - a tr ip t o L o n d o n .
20

T h e r e I w o u l d w i t h o u t f a il e v e r y m o r n i n g c o m e t o th e b r e a k f a s t , g o a n d
g r e e t h i m p e r s o n a lly. W e w o u ld e a t to g e th e r w i t h o th e r m e m b e r s o f - o f
the - that were …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d e l e g a t io n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

O f th e d e l e g a t io n a n d h e

w i ll s i t a l o n e . I w i ll a p p r o a c h h i m . I w i ll e x c h a n g e p le a s a n t r i e s . I t r i e d

Page 37 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t o a c c o m m o d a t e h i m b u t t o my d is m a y I - I th o u g h t t h a t t h i n g s w e r e w e r e o k a y - w e r e g e t t in g o n v e r y w e ll b u t t h e n I s u b s e q u e n t le a r n t th a t
h e c a s t ig a t e d o n e o f t h e d e l e g a t e s - d e l e g a ti o n w h o - w h o h e h a d s e e n
in m y c o m p a n y a r o u n d th e r e .
H e c a s t ig a t e d h i m f o r s u c k i n g u p t o m e a n d I - b u t I d i d n o t
e v e n t a k e n a n is s u e a b o u t - a b o u t t h a t b u t I c o n ti n u e d t o tr e a t h i m a s a
- a s a p r o f e s s i o n a l a n d a ls o a s a c o ll e a g u e . A t n o s t a g e d id I s h o u t a t
him.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e n y o u a p p r o a c h e d h i m e v e r y m o r n in g w h i l e y o u

w e r e in L o n d o n a t b r e a k f a s t a n d y o u w o u ld g r e e t h i m a n d a s y o u s a y
e x c h a n g e - I d o n o t k n o w - e x c h a n g e p l e a s a n tr ie s .

W e l l t h a t is h o w

you put it but what was the response from him?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i is s u c h a v e r y n i c e p e r s o n .

C h a ir

-

Chair

S u c h th a t I w o u ld a s k

m y s e l f w h a t w o u ld - w h a t r e a l ly w o u l d h a p p e n a f te r I t h o u g h t w e w e r e
g e t t in g o n v e r y w e ll a n d a ft e r I w o u l d h e a r s o m e s t o r i e s - t h i n g s t h a t h e
w a s d o i n g to g e th e r w i th A d v o c a te J i b a b e c a u s e w h e n h e w a s w it h m e
h e w o u l d b e a v e r y n ic e p e r s o n .
S a m e a s J ib a .
20

Th e y w e r e t h e n ic e s t p e r s o n s e v e r a n d

Advocate …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In fr o n t o f y o u ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In fr o n t o f m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e ll A d v o c a te M z in y a t h i i s
e x c e p ti o n a l.

H e is s u c h a n ic e p e r s o n a l s o a n d I - I r e m e m b e r I t o l d

Page 38 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
h i m t h a t I - u n f o r tu n a te ly t h is is w h a t I - I h a v e t o d o . W e w o r k e d v e r y
w e ll b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n A d v o c a t e Mz i n y a t h i ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i.

Ja.

We get on very well with him.

With

-

with

H e is s u c h a - a

v e r y h u m b l e v e r y p r o fe s s i o n a l p e r s o n . W e h a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I d o n o t k n o w w h y I t h o u g h t A d v o c a te M z in y a t h i
w a s a - a l a d y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o , n o . I t is a - i t i s a …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a m a l e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : H e is a - t h e X h o s a t h e y t h e y a r e n a m e d S i b o n g i le . It is a …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I think …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A m a l e . H e i s a m a le , j a .
CHAIRPERSON: No I - I think that must be …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Because …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B e c a u s e o f t h e f ir s t n a m e ,
ja .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : J a . P e o p le c o n f u s e . T h e y
think …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e y th in k i t i s a fe m a l e .
CHAIRPERSON: I think now I understand.

Page 39 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is a c t u a lly a m a le , j a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Because you are right.

W i t h - I m e a n is i Zu lu a n d

is i X h o s a a r e v e r y c l o s e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d is i X h o s a t h a t is w h e r e
the problem lies.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o m e o f t h e n a m e s o f p e o p l e a r e th e s a m e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u w o u ld fi n d th a t a p a r t ic u l a r n a m e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In is i X h o s a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex is t a m o n g t h e Z u l u s …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e x is t a m o n g th e A m a X h o s a a n d b u t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d p a r tic u la r ly S i b o n g i le .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w i th - w i t h A m a X h o s a t h a t n a m e w o u l d b e f o r a

female or would be used …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d b o th …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r b o th .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : F o r f e m a l e s a n d f e m a le s .
CHAIRPERSON: Whereas with AmaZulu …
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is o n ly f o r f e m a le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d o n l y b e f o r m a l e s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e Fik il e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n S i b o n g il e .

F o r t h o s e tw o a m o n g A m a Z u l u

Page 40 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w o u ld a l w a y s b e f e m a le .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Female, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o it is a n a m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h i n k t h a t m u s t b e w h a t a l s o m a d e m e t h in k …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a f e m a le b u t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In f a c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d i t i s a m a n , j a .
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I n f a c t h e is t h e D ir e c t o r o f
P u b l ic Pr o s e c u t io n s in t h e N o r th G a u te n g D i v is io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A d v o c a te M z i n y a t h i .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

Ye s .

S o y o u s a y h e w a s - h e is a v e r y

n ic e p e r s o n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A very nice person.

We

had …
CHAIRPERSON: And you got on very well?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e g o t o n v e r y w e ll . E v e n
20

t o t h i s d a y. W e a r e g e t t in g - w e g e t o n v e r y w e l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n t o d a y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ja,

but

I

think

u n d e r s t a n d - h e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t i t is - it is th e j o b t h a t I h a d t o d o …

Page 41 of 192

he

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And - and I do not pass

any judgment …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: On any of them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I w a s m e r e ly d o i n g m y

work. I think he understood that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: At no stage did he feel that
I - I w a s p a i n t i n g h i m i n a n y w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s b u t y o u - y o u s a y - y o u s a y Mr M r w e b i a n d
M s J i b a a t le a s t i n y o u r p r e s e n c e th e y w e r e a ls o v e r y n ic e p e o p l e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e y w e r e v e r y n ic e . T h e y
p r e s e n t e d t h e ms e lv e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is j u s t th a t a f t e r w a r d s y o u w o u l d h e a r o t h e r th i n g s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Other things, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir is t h is a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e ?

20

W e w i ll …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

M a k e p r e p a r a ti o n s to p la y th e

recording.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. W e w i ll ta k e t h e s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t a n d
r e s u m e - is i t fi n e i f w e r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t o r s h o u l d w e m a k e m o r e

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
ti m e w it h th e p r e p a r a ti o n s th a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o m a k e a t t e a ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I w o u l d l ik e t o l o o k a t t h e

r e l e v a n t e x tr a c t a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

So

perhaps

an

e x tr a

fi v e

minutes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o w e w il l r e s u m e a t 2 5 t o 1 2 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n
10

R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

DCJ we have – we engineered

t h e b u n d le , E X H I B I T E E 5 i s n o lo n g e r th e tr a n s c r i p t o f th e e v i d e n c e
g iv e n p r e v i o u s l y b y M r N x a s a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t is o n y o u r d e s k , o r o n y o u r

t a b le in a s e p a r a t e f o l d e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

EXHIBIT EE5 now is the

tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e r e c o r d i n g a t p a g e 1 9 7 a n d f o l lo w in g , 1 9 7 is s i m p l y a n
a ffi d a v i t o f t h e p e r s o n w h o d id t h e tr a n s c r i p ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Page 43 of 192

A n d t h e tr a n s c r ip t io n I a m

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
in f o r m e d o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n th e r e is o t h e r m a te r i a l w h i c h i s ir r e l e v a n t
o n th e r e c o r d in g , i t is a t p a g e 2 0 1 a n d f o l l o w i n g . I m u s t s a y C h a ir th a t
I h a v e l o o k e d a t i t d u r i n g t h e a d j o u r n m e n t a n d fo r t h e li f e o f m e I d o
n o t f o l lo w th e r e fe r e n c e s b u t if M r N x a s a n a c a n h e l p t h e n h e c a n h e l p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n th e tr a n s c r i p t ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n t h e tr a n s c r ip t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I h a v e n ’ t lis t e n e d t o t h e

r e c o r d i n g , b u t I a m a s s u r e d t h a t t h e tr a n s c r i p t a c c u r a t e l y r e f le c ts w h a t
10

w a s s a i d i n m o r e t h a n o n e la n g u a g e o n th e r e c o r d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

So in accordance with your

r e q u e s t i t is n o t l o n g C h a ir, p e r h a p s w e c a n p la y t h e r e c o r d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u c o u ld i n d ic a te , o r t h e

w i t n e s s c o u l d i n d ic a t e w h e r e i t n e e d s t o b e s to p p e d f o r c o m m e n t a r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y n o th a t ’s a lr i g h t , m y in c l in a ti o n i s I d o n ’ t

k n o w h o w lo n g – h o w lo n g is t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

I t is a fe w m in u t e s , f o u r

minutes.
CHAIRPERSON:

M y in c li n a ti o n w o u l d b e t o l is te n t o th e w h o l e o f i t,

u n l e s s e i th e r y o u r o r M r N x a s a n a w i s h e s t h a t w e s t o p s o m e w h e r e fo r
s o m e c l a r i f ic a t i o n t o b e g iv e n a n d th e n i f w e d o n o t h a v e t h a t t h e n th e
c la r i fi c a t io n s c o u l d b e g i v e n a ft e r w a r d s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , w e ll i n t h e li g h t o f th a t

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C h a ir i t a ls o is m y o w n p r e f e r e n c e t h a t w e h e a r t h e w h o l e t h i n g a n d
t h e n a s k Mr N x a s a n a to e x p l a i n w h e r e th e c o n f ir m a ti o n is th a t h e
a tt e s t e d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B e c a u s e I – t h e r e fe r e n c e s a r e

o b s c u r e s o I d o n o t s e e i t , m a y b e h e w i ll b e a b l e to e x p la in t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Mr Nxasana have you followed

w h a t th e C h a ir h a s n o w s a id .
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .
We are going to play the

recording.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

Ye s C h a ir, I w a s

f o ll o w i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

We are going to play the

r e c o r d i n g fr o m b e g in n in g t o e n d , t h a t r e c o r d i n g o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n
between Mr Joubert and Colonel Nklongu[?].
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

Once that has been concluded

y o u c a n te ll u s w h e r e i n t h a t r e c o r d in g t h e r e is c o n fir m a t i o n o f t h e
p a r t s o f th e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u g a v e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

O k a y, I w il l d o th a t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B e c a u s e q u i te f r a n k ly i t is n o t

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
i m m e d i a t e ly a p p a r e n t fr o m t h e tr a n s c r i p t, o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J a , a n d i f in o r d e r t o – i f i t w o u l d a s s is t to l a t e r o n

p l a y c e r t a in p a r ts o f t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t c a n b e d o n e a s w e ll , o k a y
a lr i g h t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

S o i n s h o r t w e w il l p l a y t h e

w h o le r e c o r d i n g , w e w il l a s k y o u t o c o n fir m w h a t w a s s a i d a s y o u
t e s ti fi e d e a r l ie r, o r n o t s a i d , a s y o u t e s ti f i e d t o e a r l i e r, a n d th e n i f y o u
r e q u ir e c e r t a in p o r ti o n s t o b e r e p l a y e d a s t h e C h a ir i n d ic a t e s w e c a n
10

f a c i li t a te t h a t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

N o p r o b le m C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A U D I O R E C O R D IN G P L AY E D
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y, y e s b e c a u s e I c o u l d n o t h e a r e a r l i e r o n a n d I

a m n o t s u r e i f I c a n h e a r n o w th e a c tu a l w o r d s , I ju s t h e a r s o m e n o i s e
a n d th e n s o m e b o d y s p e a k i n g b u t n o t th e a c t u a l w o r d s .
V I D E O R E C O R D I N G P L AY E D
CHAIRPERSON:

I s th a t t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n a l r e a d y w it h M r J o u b e r t ?

I

s e e m t o h e a r s o m e Zu lu , w h a t a p p e a r t o b e Zu lu w o r d s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e c o n v e r s a t io n y e s .

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A U D I O R E C O R D IN G P L AY E D
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, ju s t s to p , j u s t s t o p . I c a n n o t h e a r a w o r d , I
h e a r t h a t th e r e is s o m e b o d y s p e a k in g , m a y b e m o r e t h a n o n e p e r s o n . I
d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is t h e n o is e o r w h a t i t is b u t th e c l a r it y t h a t is

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
s u p p o s e d t o b e t h e r e s o t h a t I c a n h e a r th e a c t u a l w o r d s b e i n g s p o k e n
is n o t t h e r e .

I do not know whether it is because maybe I am at a

c e r t a i n d is t a n c e a w a y fr o m t h e in s tr u m e n t o r w h a t.

I d o n o t k n o w if

o th e r p e o p l e a r e a b l e t o h e a r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l c e r ta in ly I c a n n o t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , M r N x a s a n a a r e y o u a b le t o h e a r f r o m w h e r e y o u
a r e , o t h e r t h a n w h a t y o u m a y h a v e lis t e n e d t o i t p r i v a t e l y ?

Are you

able to hear now?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

I c a n n o w h e a r, I d o n o t

k n o w w h e t h e r p e r h a p s t h a t is b e c a u s e I .. . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u k n o w . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I know the – ja, but we

h a v e n o t c o m e t o th e a c tu a l c o n v e r s a t io n r e l e v a n t t o t h e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , d o y o u t h i n k w h e n w e g e t th e r e i t m i g h t b e

c le a r e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

P e r h a p s , I d o n o t k n o w,

t h a t is w h y I w a s s i g n a ll in g t o h i m t h a t h e m u s t j u s t f a s t f o r w a r d i t , a n d
I w il l te ll h i m w h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , o k a y m a y b e le t h i m f a s t f o r w a r d to w h e r e t h e

r e a l c o n v e r s a t io n s s ta r t s th a t w e a r e i n te r e s t e d i n a n d le t ’s s e e i f o n e
m i g h t b e a b le to h e a r t h a t , a n d th e t e c h n i c ia n m a y b e w i ll b e a r i n m i n d
w h a t I h a v e s a i d , m a y b e t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e
t e c h n ic a l ly to m a k e s u r e o n e c a n h e a r. I t h i n k w e d i d h a v e s o m e th i n g
lik e t h a t w h e n I w a s

h e a r i n g e v id e n c e o r a r e c o r d i n g r e l a ti n g to th e

Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g , a n d I t h i n k I t o o k f i v e m i n u t e s a d jo u r n m e n t a n d

Page 47 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w h e n I c a m e b a c k w e w o u l d h e a r b e t t e r, I c o u ld
know if that is the same problem.

h e a r b e tt e r.

I don’t

L e t ’s s t a r t a n d l e t ’s s e e w h e t h e r

there was improvement.
A U D I O R E C O R D IN G P L AY E D
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s t o p . A r e w e a lr e a d y o n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

C h a ir I a m in f o r m e d th a t th e

r e c o r d i n g c o n t a i n s a p o r ti o n w h e r e C o l o n e l N k lo n g u [ ? ] w a s s p e a k i n g
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n a d i ffe r e n t c o n v e r s a t i o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h i ls t Mr J o u b e r t w a s a s i t

were holding on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o p e r h a p s w e c a n g e t to t h a t

p o r t i o n , i t ’s n o t l o n g a n d s e e i f a t t h a t p o r ti o n w h e r e t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n
t a k e s p l a c e i t is c l e a r e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , l e t ’s g e t t o th e r e a l c o n v e r s a ti o n w e a r e

in t e r e s te d i n .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D o y o u k n o w w h e r e i t is ?

A U D I O R E C O R D IN G P L AY E D
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

J u s t s t o p . T h i s p o r ti o n C h a ir

a p p e a r s a t p a g e 2 0 0 3 , i n o t h e r w o r d s in t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f th e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e tr a n s c r i p t , 2 0 0 3 .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

M S0N2003 at line 15.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C a r r y o n p le a s e .

A U D I O R E C O R D IN G P L AY E D
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s t o p . J u s t s to p . T h e r e is v e r y l i tt l e i m p r o v e m e n t
b e t w e e n w h a t I w a s h e a r i n g e a r li e r a n d w h a t I a m h e a r i n g n o w. I s ti ll
c a n n o t h e a r a fu ll s e n t e n c e , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r h a s y o u r h e a r in g
i m p r o v e d M r Pr e to r i u s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

No, no better or worse than

y o u r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t it m a y b e t h e r e c o r d in g

it s e l f, w h ic h c o u ld b e t e c h n ic a l ly e n h a n c e d .

It may be how the

r e c o r d i n g is b e i n g p l a y e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

B e c a u s e i t is b e i n g p la y e d o v e r

speakers over there and I am not sure it is coming across on the
s p e a k e r s a n d p e r h a p s o v e r t h e l o n g a d jo u r n m e n t w e c a n d e a l w i th t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ja . A n d I w o n d e r w h e th e r p e o p l e a t th e b a c k a r e
20

h e a r in g b e t te r t h a n u s , t h e y s h a k e h e a d s , it l o o k s li k e r e a ll y n o b o d y
h e a r s , s o t h e r e is n o p o in t i n c o n ti n u i n g w it h i t .

M a y b e e it h e r t h e

c u r r e n t t e c h n i c i a n o r w h o e v e r m a y a s s is t c a n l o o k a t w h a t n e e d s to b e
d o n e t e c h n i c a ll y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e c a n h e a r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s I s u s p e c t i t m a y h a v e

s o m e t h i n g to d o – m a y h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o d o w it h h o w i t i s b e i n g

Page 49 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
b r o a d c a s t fr o m t h e r e c o r d i n g , b e c a u s e I d o n o t h e a r i t o v e r a l l th e s e
speakers.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , m a y b e , s o t h e t e c h n ic ia n c a n l o o k a t t h a t a n d

d e f in i te ly m a y b e a f te r l u n c h w e c a n r e v e r t t o i t i f h e o r s h e , I d o n ’t
k n o w, I c a n ’ t s e e if i t ’s a h e o r a s h e if h e o r s h e n e e d s a s s is t a n c e f r o m
c o l l e a g u e s w h o a r e t e c h n i c i a n s p e r h a p s y o u c a n d o th a t , b e c a u s e i t
w o u ld b e – I w o u l d l o v e to h e a r i t i f i t i s a t a ll p o s s i b l e .
O k a y, I th in k w e w i ll h a v e t o c o n ti n u e a n d o th e r p e o p l e w il l tr y
a n d l o o k i n t o th a t is s u e w i t h a v i e w t h a t if p o s s i b le a f t e r lu n c h w e c o u l d
10

tr y a g a in .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Mr Nxasana can we go then

b a c k to p a g e 1 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

At paragraph 43.6.

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir.

Yo u h a v e to l d t h e C h a i r w h a t

s t e p s y o u to o k to a d d r e s s w h a t y o u r e f e r t o a s in s ta b i li t y w i t h i n th e
20

N PA .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d y o u h a v e t o ld t h e C h a ir i n

p a r t ic u l a r a b o u t y o u r r e la t io n s h ip w i t h A d v o c a t e s J ib a , M g w e b i a n d
M z i n y a t h i i n th is r e g a r d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 50 of 192

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D id y o u m a k e a n y r e q u e s ts t o

h o l d a m e e ti n g w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d w h a t w a s – i f s o w h a t w a s t h e
p u r p o s e o f t h o s e r e q u e s t s ? Yo u d e a l w i th t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 . 6
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

Ye s C h a i r a s I h a v e

in d i c a t e d e a r li e r I w a s m o r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h a t I w a s h e a r i n g , t h e
r u m o u r t h a t w a s g o i n g a r o u n d a n d I w a n te d t o s e e t h e P r e s i d e n t . I w a s
n o t g e t t in g a n y j o y, I m a d e a ll a t te m p t s , i n c l u d i n g t o c o n ta c t M r H a r l e y
a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d , w h ic h I m a n a g e d o n o n e i n s t a n c e I m a n a g e d to
m e e t h i m o n N 1 in M i d r a n d a n d s u b s e q u e n tly h e th e n I t h i n k h e w r o t e
10

m e l e tt e r s to w h e r e h e w a s t e l li n g m e t h a t h e i n te n d e d t o i n s ti t u te a n
in q u ir y o r m a y b e b e f o r e t h a t I t h in k I r e c e iv e d l e tt e r s w h e r e I w a s
a s k e d t o c o m m e n t b y c e r ta in p a r t ic u l a r d a t e s t h e c o m m e n t s th a t a r e
a tt r i b u t e d to m e , w h ic h a r e i n th e m e d i a a m o n g s t o t h e r th in g s , m y
in v o lv e m e n t in a m a t te r w h e r e I w a s c h a r g e d a n d a c q u i t te d o f m u r d e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If I m a y a s k y o u t o p a u s e t h e r e

M r N x a s a n a , I t h in k y o u a r e g o in g a h e a d , a n d i f y o u c o u l d g o b a c k
p l e a s e to p a r a g r a p h 4 3 .6 .

I n o th e r w o r d s b e fo r e w e d e a l w it h t h e

c h a r g e s th a t w e r e c o n te m p l a te d a g a in s t y o u r s e l f I w o u ld li k e y o u j u s t to
fir s t d e a l w i t h t h e c o n t e n t s o f p a r a g r a p h 4 3 .6 a n d f o l lo w i n g .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

O h , o k a y I u n d e r s ta n d .

Ye s I a ls o m a d e r e q u e s t s to t h e P r e s i d e n t a s w e l l , a f t e r I h a d t o s e n d
him

the

memorandum

I

requested

him

to

consider

in s ti t u t i n g

d is c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n , t o ta k i n g d is c ip li n a r y a c t io n a g a in s t A d v o c a t e s J ib a ,
M g w e b i a n d Mz i n y a t h i.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Page 51 of 192

S o y o u r d e c is i o n w a s t o

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
in s t i tu t e

disciplinary

a c ti o n

a g a in s t A d v o c a t e s J i b a , M g w e b i a n d

Mzinyathi?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

That is correct.

Yo u r e q u e s te d a m e e ti n g w i t h

t h e P r e s i d e n t to d i s c u s s t h i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s , I t h i n k t h e t w o o f y o u g o t

m ix e d u p , y o u s a id h i s d e c is io n w a s t o i n s t it u t e d is c i p li n a r y a c t io n a n d
h e s a i d y e s b u t I t h i n k h i s d e c is i o n w a s t o r e q u e s t t h e Pr e s i d e n t t o
in s t i tu t e n o t fo r h i m to in s ti t u t e h i m s e l f .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B e c a u s e t h e p o w e r v e s t e d – w a s v e s t e d w i th t h e

P r e s i d e n t , is i t n o t Mr N x a s a n a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u c o u ld n o t i n s t it u te a n y d i s c ip li n a r y a c ti o n

yourself?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s , n o n o t m y s e l f, y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u a r e q u i t e c o r r e c t C h a ir,

y o u r d e c is io n w a s t o i n it i a t e a p r o c e s s .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

As you say in paragraph 43.7

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

That is correct.

O f c o u r s e y o u c o u ld n o t m a k e

t h e fi n a l d e c i s i o n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 52 of 192

Ye s .

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u w is h e d t o d is c u s s th is

w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t y e s .

Was there any response to your

request?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t I

r e c e i v e d if m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e l l I t h i n k I r e c e i v e d a r e s p o n s e
fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r o f J u s tic e , Mr M a s u t h a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

W h a t d id h e t e l l y o u ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B a s ic a l ly h e t h r e w t h e b a l l

b a c k a t m e a n d a s k e d m e t o e x p l a i n w h a t m e a s u r e s I h a d ta k e n i n
a d d r e s s i n g a ll t h o s e is s u e s , a n d I w r o te b a c k t o h i m a n d i n d ic a te d t h a t
I had caused a memorandum to be submitted to him for onward
tr a n s m is s io n t o t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d w e a r e s t il l w a i t in g fo r t h e Pr e s id e n t
t o i n t e r v e n e a n d t a k e a d e c i s i o n t o i n s t it u t e t h e d is c i p l in a r y a c ti o n
a g a in s t t h e a d v o c a te s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k i t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t , m a y b e a ft e r lu n c h M r

Pretorius, you know the sequence, the sequence and the actual
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e d e a l in g w i t h t h o s e t h in g s i s a t t a c h e d to e it h e r M r
20

H a t h o r n ’s a ff i d a v i t o r N a i d o o in t h e c o r r u p ti o n .. . [ in d i s ti n c t ] a p p l ic a ti o n ,
t h e y c a n b e , I th i n k t h e y c o u l d b e v e r y u s e fu l i n t e r m s o f t h e te r ms o f
t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a s w e ll .

S o I t h i n k h e c a n c o n ti n u e a n d g iv e

e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n d u r i n g t h e l u n c h b r e a k m a y b e h e c o u l d lo o k a t t h a t
a ffi d a v i t . I t h i n k t h o s e r e c o r d s a r e a v a i la b le t h a t is s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s
– t h a t w e n t u p t o C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t .

Page 53 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n – s o h e c a n g i v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t it a n d t h e n
la t e r o n w e c a n g o in t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s w e h a v e t h e a ff id a v i t h e r e .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

To p u t i t to M r N x a s a n a , b u t

p e r h a p s to g e t c o p i e s a n d s p e a k to h i m a b o u t it o v e r th e lo n g t e r m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , g e t c o p ie s , y e s , y e s a n d t h e a n n e x u r e s b e c a u s e
t h e m e m o r a n d u m a ls o i s t h e r e , i t is a tt a c h e d i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

We now have that memorandum,

a n d th a t c a n a ls o b e p r e s e n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

D o y o u r e c a l l a m e e ti n g a t

E m p e r o r ’s P a l a c e , a m e e ti n g o f w h a t y o u r e fe r t o i n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 . 8 a s
t h e N PA m e e ti n g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
in M a r c h 2 0 1 4 o r M a r c h 2 0 1 5 ?

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W e ll d i d t h a t m e e t i n g t a k e p la c e

O r w h e n d i d i t ta k e p l a c e ?

Yo u s a y

h e r e it t o o k p l a c e i n M a r c h 2 0 1 5 .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

C h a ir I t h i n k i t w o u ld h a v e

b e e n i n M a r c h 2 0 1 4 i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lr i g h t .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t h i n k t h a t is a n e r r o r.

S o . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 4 3 . 8 is t h a t w h e r e y o u a r e ?

Page 54 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o t h a t 2 0 1 5 y o u s a y m u s t b e a n e r r o r Mr
Nxasana?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

It m u s t b e a n e r r o r y e s , i f

I l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 4 4 w h a t f o l lo w s t h e r e a f t e r i t m u s t h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

B u t I s ta n d t o b e

corrected.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d Mi n is te r M a s u th a s a y

a n y th in g to y o u a b o u t y o u r r e q u e s t t o th e P r e s id e n t t o i n te r v e n e , a s
y o u h a v e te s t i fi e d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir, h e t o l d m e t h a t

t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d a g r e e d t o i n te r v e n e , a n d to i n t e r v e n e a s I h a d
requested, but he never did.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y, i f t h i s is M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a m I c o r r e c t in

u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h a t m e e t i n g a t E m p e r o r ’s P a l a c e t h a t is r e f e r r e d t o
a t p a r a g r a p h 4 3 .8 w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d a ft e r y o u h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e
20

President to consider suspending Ms Jiba, Mr Mgwebi and sending the
m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h g a v e h i m t h e b a s is , o r w h a t y o u t h o u g h t w a s t h e
b a s is f o r h i m t o a c t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y s o t h a t w a s m u c h e a r li e r, I t h i n k e a r l ie r o n I

m a y h a v e s a i d J u l y, A u g u s t , s o t h a t w a s m u c h e a r l ie r.

Page 55 of 192

It was much

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
e a r l ie r t h a n th a t , i t w a s b e fo r e M a r c h , t h e r e q u e s t fo r t h e P r e s i d e n t t o
do something?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

I t h in k C h a ir I c a n v e r i fy

t h is i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e E m p e r o r ’s P a l a c e w h e n w a s t h a t m e e t i n g . I
r e m e m b e r t h e m e e ti n g v i v i d l y b u t I c a n n o t r e c a l l th e d a te n o w b u t a t
t h a t m e e ti n g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t a ls o i t m a y b e t h a t b e c a u s e p a r a g r a p h 4 3 .8

t a lk s a b o u t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a v i n g , th e M i n is t e r s a y i n g to y o u t h e
President had agreed to intervene.
10

Maybe did you at some stage

s i m p l y r e q u e s t h i m t o i n t e r v e n e a n d t h a t r e q u e s t b e in g s e p a r a te fr o m
r e q u e s t in g h i m t o c o n s id e r s u s p e n d in g M s J i b a a n d M r M g w e b i a n d
in s t i tu t in g d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d in g s a g a i n s t t h e m .

C o u ld t h o s e h a v e

b e e n s e p a r a te a n d d i ff e r e n t r e q u e s t s a t d i ff e r e n t ti m e s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I t w a s a t d i ff e r e n t ti m e s

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h e m e e t in g a t E m p e r o r ’s

P a la c e I th i n k i t w a s a w o r k s h o p o r g a n is e d b y t h e – I t h in k i t d e a l t w i th
c o r r u p ti o n , i t w a s o r g a n i s e d b y th e N PA , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h ic h u n i t .
20

I a t t e n d e d th a t m e e ti n g a n d Mi n is t e r M a s u th a w a s a ls o p r e s e n t a t t h a t
m e e ti n g b u t w h a t h e w a s c o n fir m i n g t o m e is t h a t a f te r I h a d s u b m i t t e d
t o h i m t h e m e m o r a n d a a n d t h e – a n d e v e r y t h i n g th e fi l e w h e r e i n I h a d
a s k e d t h e P r e s i d e n t to c o n s i d e r t a k in g d is c i p li n a r y a c ti o n a g a i n s t
A d v o c a t e s , J i b a , M g w e b i a n d M z in y a t h i t h a t w a s h is r e s p o n s e o n th a t
d a y, t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s fi n a l ly a g r e e d t o in t e r v e n e a n d w a s

Page 56 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c o n s i d e r in g m y t a k in g a c ti o n a g a i n s t th e A d v o c a te s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d o e s th a t m e a n t h a t y o u a r e c le a r i n y o u r o w n

m i n d th a t t h e m e e ti n g a t E m p e r o r ’s P a la c e t o o k p la c e a f t e r y o u h a d
r e q u e s t e d th e P r e s i d e n t t o c o n s id e r s u s p e n d i n g M s J i b a a n d M r M g w e b i
a n d a ft e r y o u h a d s u b m i t t e d a m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h y o u b e li e v e d s e t o u t
t h e b a s i s f o r h i m t o a c t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Ye s , l e t ’s j u s t p la c e y o u r

e v i d e n c e n o w in c o n te x t M r N x a s a n a , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h e c o n d u c t o f A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M g w e b i a n d A d v o c a t e
M z i n y a t h i y o u h a d to r e ly o n i n fo r m a ti o n p r o v i d e d t o y o u b y o t h e r N PA
o ffic i a ls , a n d t h a t is w h y y o u o b ta i n e d a m e m o r a n d u m fr o m A d v o c a te
N e l a n d Mr W il li e H o f m e y e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

R i g h t , C h a ir i n s o f a r a s i t is

n e c e s s a r y to d e a l w i th t h a t d e t a i l t h a t w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h d ir e c tly, it ju s t
s e e m s t o m e t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g to t h e C h a ir n o w
is t o s a y t h a t b a s e d o n i n fo r m a ti o n y o u h a d r e c e iv e d , w h i c h w e c a n
20

p l a c e b e f o r e t h e C h a ir in d u e c o u r s e , y o u h a d t a k e n a d e c i s i o n t o a t
le a s t i n i t i a t e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t th e A d v o c a t e s i n v o lv e d .
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t .

And you had requested a

m e e ti n g w i th t h e M i n i s t e r – w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t t o d e a l w i t h t h a t?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Page 57 of 192

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

A n d th a t is t h e

b a c k g r o u n d to t h e e v i d e n c e w h ic h y o u a r e g o i n g t o g iv e n o w a s t o w h a t
h a p p e n e d t o y o u a t th a t s t a g e ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .

S o C h a ir in s o f a r a s t h e c o n te n t

o f t h o s e m e m o r a n d a a n d a ff i d a v i ts a r e c o n c e r n e d t h e y a r e th e r e , b u t
t h e d ir e c t e v i d e n c e s h o u l d p e r h a p s b e g i v e n b y o t h e r s b e c a u s e i t d o e s
i m p l ic a t e p e o p l e q u i te s e r io u s ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e l l w h i l e y o u w e r e a s k in g q u e s ti o n s I w a s t h in k i n g

a b o u t th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts t h a t w e ta l k e d a b o u t a f e w m in u t e s a g o
and I see he on some of the things about the sequence he is not – his
r e c o l l e c ti o n m i g h t n o t b e g o o d t h a t m i g h t b e b e c a u s e h e m i g h t r e fr e s h
– n e e d t o l o o k a t d o c u m e n t s t o r e fr e s h h i s m e m o r y.

I was wondering

w h e t h e r w e s h o u ld n o t b r e a k f o r lu n c h a l i tt l e e a r l i e r t h a n n o r m a l s o
t h a t h e g e ts a c h a n c e t o l o o k a t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h ic h is a t t a c h e d
t o M r H a w t h o r n e ’s a ff id a v i t a n d w h e n w e c o m e b a c k h e c a n t h e n d e a l
w i t h t h o s e v e r y e a s i ly – t h e r e i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t is i m p o r t a n t .

It

g iv e s th e d a te s o f h i s a tt o r n e y s w r i ti n g t o t h e P r e s i d e n c y a n d th e
P r e s i d e n c y t o th e P r e s i d e n t ’s l e g a l a d v is o r w r i ti n g to h e r. I t h i n k i t i s
20

v e r y i m p o r t a n t a n d a u s u a l s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts .

As I s a y i t is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s a lr e a d y i n c o u r t r e c o r d s i n a m a t t e r th a t w e n t u p to
t h e – c o r r u p t io n m a t t e r a n d t h e C A S A C m a t te r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e w i ll d o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e w e – m a y b e w e s h o u l d lo o k a t b r e a k i n g a t
h a l f p a s t t w e lv e to g iv e m o r e t i m e f o r l u n c h a n d l o o k i n g a t t h e

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k t h e n w e c a n j u s t [i n d is t in c t] .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t to e s t a b li s h t h e s e q u e n c e ?
CHAIRPERSON: The sequence and the…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s t h a t d o e s n o t o b v i a te t h e

n e e d t o g e t t h e d i r e c t e v id e n c e f r o m e ls e w h e r e
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no it does not.

It does not.

It is j u s t th a t i t is

i m p o r t a n t I t h i n k fr o m t h e p e r s p e c tiv e th a t h e m a d e a c e r t a i n r e q u e s t a s
t h e N D P P t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t th a t t h e P r e s id e n t s h o u l d c o n s id e r t a k in g
c e r t a i n a c ti o n a g a i n s t c e r t a i n p e o p l e w i th i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . If h e h a d
10

t h e p o w e r I a m s u r e h e w o u l d h a v e ta k e n t h e d e c is i o n h i m s e l f.

And

w h a t w e t h e n s e e is c e r ta i n s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts a n d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
a n d th e n th e ti m i n g c a n b e i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e i f a ll o f t h a t h a p p e n e d
b e f o r e a n d t h e n n o a c t io n w a s t a k e n a g a i n s t th e t w o b u t i n s t e a d a c t io n
was taken against him.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s e q u e n c e is – c a n b e v e r y i m p o r t a n t . W h a t d i d
t h e P r e s i d e n t k n o w a b o u t b o t h h i m a n d a b o u t M s J i b a a n d Mr M r w e b i
a n d – a n d w h e n t h e Pr e s i d e n t is g iv e n a c h a n c e t o d e a l w it h t h i s m a t t e r
h e m a y h a v e t o i n d ic a t e , j u s t if y, ta k i n g a c ti o n a g a in s t t h e o n e a n d n o t
20

t h e o th e r a n d s o o n . S o i t i s i m p o r t a n t th a t h e c a n d e a l w i t h i t p r o p e r l y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w h a t w e k n o w s o f a r C h a i r is
w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d o n p a g e s 9 a n d 1 0 th a t m e m o r a n d a , a ff i d a v i t ,
d o c u m e n t a ti o n w a s p r e p a r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d tr a n s m i tt e d t o t h e M i n is t e r

Page 59 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
for…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Fo r o n w a r d tr a n s m i s s i o n to t h e

President.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

That was accompanied by a

r e q u e s t f o r m e e t in g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a n e x p e c ta t io n t h a t it w o u l d
10

b e f o l lo w e d u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

And that the report we now

p r e s u m e is in M a r c h 2 0 1 4 b u t i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y to c l a r i fy t h a t ; t h a t
t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a d a g r e e d t o i n t e r v e n e – f a il u r e t o i n te r v e n e a n d t h e n
s t e p s ta k e n . Th a t i s t h e s e q u e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

As I u n d e r s ta n d i t b u t I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r c o n c e r n is t h a t t h e r e is f u r th e r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o
t h a t s e q u e n c e i n t h e a ff i d a v i t o f A t t o r n e y H a w t h o r n e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d w e w i ll p u t th a t t o th e

witness.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O v e r t h e lo n g a d j o u r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o t h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u .

Page 60 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n – le t
u s a s s u m e f o r t h e m o m e n t a n d w e w i l l c h e c k th is o v e r t h e l o n g
adjournment Mr Nxasana.

L e t u s a s s u m e th a t t h e E m p e r o r ’s P a l a c e

m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e i n M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h e r e y o u w e r e in f o r m e d t h a t

t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a s a g r e e d t o in t e r v e n e a s r e q u e s t e d o r p r o p o s e d b y
yourself?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y t h a t th e r e w a s a f a i lu r e
t o a c t in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h w h a t y o u h a d b e e n t o l d w o u l d h a p p e n .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e – m a y b e – s o r r y M r Pr e to r i u s . In t h e – i n y o u r
a ffi d a v i t y o u h a v e u s e d th e w o r d i n t e r v e n e is t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t
y o u w e r e t o ld b y Mr – b y t h e M i n is te r t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t h a d a g r e e d to
in t e r v e n e o r d i d h e t e l l y o u t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t a g r e e d to i n i t ia t e
d is c i p l i n a r y – a d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s b u t y o u – i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u h a v e
s i m p l y s a i d h e a g r e e d t o i n te r v e n e o r i s t h a t t h e w o r d s t h a t w a s u s e d

20

b y t h e M i n is te r ?

B e c a u s e t h e n i f t h a t is t h e w o r d s t h a t t h e M in is t e r

u s e d I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s o f w h a t
in t e r v e n i n g in t h a t s i t u a t io n m e a n t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I – a l t h o u g h I c a n n o t
r e c a l l p r e c i s e ly w h a t t h e M i n i s te r s a i d b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g d u r i n g o u r
d is c u s s io n w a s th a t h e – h e s a i d t o m e t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d a c c e d e d t o

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
m y r e q u e s t a n d h e w a s g o i n g t o a c t . T h a t is t h e [i n d is ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh that is what he said.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

What then happened a

f e w m o n t h s a f t e r M a r c h 2 0 1 4 i n J u ly 2 0 1 4 a n d th is is n o w d ir e c t
e v i d e n c e fr o m y o u r s e l f?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t h i n k in J u ly 2 0 1 4 I th e n
r e c e i v e d c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t.
10

I remember it was very

la t e a t n i g h t. I t c a m e t h r o u g h m y e m a il . H e w a s a d v is in g m e t h a t h e
h a d ta k e n a d e c is i o n t o i n s t it u t e a c o m m is s i o n o f i n q u ir y i n t o – to
d e t e r m i n e m y f i tn e s s to h o l d o ffic e a s t h e N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b l ic
P r o s e c u t io n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . W h e n y o u s a y y o u w e r e
in f o r m e d ; h o w w e r e i n f o r m e d ? W a s i t d ir e c tl y b y th e Pr e s id e n t o r w a s
it t h r o u g h h is l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

N o i t w a s t h r o u g h h is

p e r s o n a l a s s is ta n t I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e n a m e o f th e – o f t h i s y o u n g m a n
– h is p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t h e s e n t m e t h e e m a il a n d I r e c e iv e d i t o n my
20

h a n d s e t.

I responded by acknowledging receipt of it and noted the

c o n te n ts .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d i n J u ly t h a t s a m e m o n t h

t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e m o n t h d i d y o u r e c e i v e a n o th e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d i d r e c e iv e a n o th e r
c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t a ls o f r o m th e s a m e g u y.

Page 62 of 192

I have

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
f o r g o t t e n h is n a m e b u t h e w a s h is p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t o r h e w a s a i d e –
h is a id e a d v is i n g m e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t i n t e n d e d s u s p e n d i n g m e
p e n d i n g t h e i n q u ir y a n d t h a t th e t e r m s a n d t h e d a t e s a n d t i m e a n d
v e n u e o f t h e s a i d i n q u ir y w a s g o i n g t o b e c o m m u n ic a te d to m e in d u e
c o u r s e . A n d I w a s t h e n c a l le d u p o n t o m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s w h y I s h o u ld
n o t b e s u s p e n d e d p e n d i n g t h e s a id in q u i r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now how – how long after the Emperors Palace

m e e ti n g w a s t h is m o r e o r l e s s w h e n y o u w e r e t o l d th a t th e Pr e s i d e n t
in t e n d s – w a s g o i n g t o s u s p e n d y o u ?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair I – I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y m a y b e a f te r lu n c h i t s h o u l d b e p o s s i b l e a f t e r
lu n c h b e c a u s e th e r e is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n t h e r e c o r d a b o u t a ll o f t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W o u l d y o u g o to p a g e 1 3 5

please.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y p a g e 1 3 5 ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e to p p a g e o f c o u r s e . N o t t h is – n o t th e o th e r o n e .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m s o r r y M S O N 0 4 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 6 ? Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e th a t ? To p r i g h t h a n d
c o r n e r Mr N x a s a n a t h e r e is s o m e l e t te r s f o ll o w e d b y n u m b e r s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is p a g e ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 6 .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Oh page 46.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s A n n e x u r e M N 3 .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I h a v e i t w i th m e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t i s a – it i s a l e t te r d a t e d
t h e 4 J u ly 2 0 1 4 w h i c h I r e c e iv e d fr o m P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a .

I t is a

n o t ic e o f i n s t i tu t io n o f in q u ir y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t i s d a te d 4 J u ly 2 0 1 4 n e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n i f y o u w o u l d g o to p a g e
48 please.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

P a g e 4 8 i s a le t t e r I

r e c e i v e d fr o m P r e s i d e n t Zu m a d a t e d th e 3 0 J u l y 2 0 1 4 t it l e d N o ti c e o f
in t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d in t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 6 ) A o f th e N a t i o n a l
P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y A c t 3 2 o f 1 9 9 8 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . P a r a g r a p h 2 o f t h a t le t t e r
reads:
“ Yo u

are

no

doubt

aware

that

th e

N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y is a n i m p o r t a n t c o n s ti t u ti o n a l
20

in s t i tu t io n in t h e a d m i n i s t r a t io n o f j u s ti c e a n d t h a t
m a in t a i n in g p u b l ic c o n fi d e n c e in t h e i n s ti t u ti o n is o f
n e c e s s it y.

In

c o n s id e r a ti o n

of

maintaining

th e

in t e g r i ty o f t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r i t y a n d i n
p a r t ic u l a r

i ts

good

a d m in is tr a ti o n

I

am

g iv in g

c o n s i d e r a ti o n t o s u s p e n d i n g y o u o n f u ll p a y p e n d i n g

Page 64 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t h e f in a lis a ti o n o f t h e i n q u ir y t o w h i c h I h a v e
r e fe r r e d . ”
I t r e a d s fu r th e r :
“ T h e in q u ir y w il l e x a m i n e y o u r f i tn e s s t o h o l d t h e
o ffic e a s N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s
h a v i n g r e g a r d t o w h e t h e r. ”
A n d w h a t w a s c o n t e m p la t e d b y th e P r e s i d e n t a t th a t ti m e i n r e l a ti o n t o
t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f th e i n q u ir y. Yo u c a n r e a d if y o u w is h .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: It was – he said:
10

“ T h e in q u ir y w il l e x a m i n e m y f i tn e s s t o h o l d t h e o ff ic e a s
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s h a v i n g r e g a r d t o
whether
1 . T h e c r i m in a l c o n v i c ti o n s w h ic h I p o s s e s s f o r v i o l e n t
conduct.
2 . R e p o r t e d c o m m e n t s in t h e m e d i a a r e u n b e c o m in g o f
a N a ti o n a l D i r e c to r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s d iv is iv e
and

have

th e

e ff e c t

of

bringing

the

N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y i n to d i s r e p u te . A n d l a s tl y
3 . T h e l a c k o f d i s c lo s u r e o f t h e f a c ts a n d c ir c u m s t a n c e s
20

o f p r o s e c u ti o n s w h ic h I fa c e d a r e c o n s o n a n t w i th t h e
c o n te n ti o u s n e s s a n d i n t e g r it y o f a n i n c u m b e n t to t h e
o ffic e o f N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s a s
r e q u ir e d b y t h e A c t . ”
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

Page 65 of 192

T h e n I w a s r e q u ir e d t o

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
f u r n is h t h e P r e s i d e n t w i t h w r it t e n r e p r e s e n ta t io n s i n t h is r e g a r d b y n o
la t e r th a n 1 5 0 0 h o u r s o r 1 6 0 0 h o u r s o n Fr i d a y 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is a d a y o r s o l a t e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Tw o d a y s l a te r. B u t i f y o u c o u l d
g o b a c k p l e a s e . I t i s n o t o u r in t e n t i o n t o h o l d Tr i a ls - W i t h i n - A - Tr i a l b u t
d i d y o u h a v e c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n s fo r v i o l e n t c o n d u c t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I h a d c r i m i n a l c o n v ic ti o n s
for assault common.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Right.

Had these been

d is c l o s e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n r e p o r t e d c o m m e n t s i n
t h e m e d ia . D o y o u k n o w t o w h a t c o m m e n ts r e fe r e n c e w a s h e r e b e i n g
made?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To t h i s d a t e C h a ir I d o n o t
k n o w w h a t th e P r e s i d e n t w a s r e f e r r i n g t o a s t h e m e d i a c o m m e n ts
b e c a u s e w e – I p e r s o n a ll y w r o te a l e t te r a s k in g h i m t o f u r n i s h m e w i t h
t h e p a r ti c u la r s o f w h a t h e m e a n t a b o u t t h e m e d i a c o m m e n ts a n d h e
20

f a il e d to d o t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e a ll e g e d la c k o f

d is c l o s u r e o f fa c t s a n d c ir c u m s t a n c e s o f p r o s e c u t i o n s . A n d I p r e s u m e
t h a t is s o m e t h i n g d i ffe r e n t fr o m c o n v ic ti o n s w h ic h y o u fa c e d .

Do you

k n o w w h a t w a s b e in g r e fe r r e d to h e r e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

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I n t h e s a m e le t t e r C h a i r

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
b e f o r e I a p p l i e d f o r a n i n t e r d i c t a g a in s t t h e P r e s i d e n t w e h a d m a d e t h a t
r e q u e s t to th e Pr e s id e n t t o e x p la i n – t o g i v e m e p a r ti c u la r – p a r ti c u l a r s
o f w h a t h e m e a n t a b o u t th a t m a t t e r s w h i c h h e d i d n o t d o . A n d I s ti ll d o
n o t k n o w w h a t h e w a s r e f e r r in g to .

I n h i s r e s p o n s e I t h in k h e s a i d I

s h o u l d k n o w w h a t h e w a s r e f e r r in g to in a n u t s h e l l .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a s s a u lt t h a t y o u – y o u t a lk a b o u t t h a t y o u h a d a
c o n v i c ti o n f o r, is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n h a d th a t c o n v ic t i o n h a p p e n e d o r – a n d w h e n

h a d th e i n c i d e n t th a t g a v e r is e t o i t h a p p e n e d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

C h a ir i t w a s i n I t h i n k i n

1986 at Nongoma.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA : And I remember even when
I – I a p p l i e d t o – t o r e g is te r f o r m y a r t ic le s o f c l e r k s h ip a s a n a t to r n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That was one of the

r e q u ir e m e n t s b e c a u s e I d i s c l o s e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B u t I e v e n w e n t to

N o n g o m a c h a r g e o ffi c e a n d N o n g o m a c o u r t a n d I c o u l d n o t f in d t h o s e
r e c o r d s – t h e r e c o r d s b e c a u s e o f th e – t h e v e r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l a p s e o f ti m e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

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Because of the lapse of

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
ti m e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h i s w a s th e r e f e r e n c e t o v io l e n t c o n d u c t i n s o fa r

a s i t r e la t e d to y o u r c o n v ic ti o n f o r a s s a u l t . I t r e l a t e d to s o m e th i n g th a t
h a d h a p p e n e d w h a t m o r e th a n 3 0 y e a r s a g o o r p r e v i o u s ly a s a t t h e ti m e
y o u w e r e b e in g a s k e d a b o u t th is .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th a t i s w h a t o n e c o u l d

o n ly a s s u m e b e c a u s e t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s n o t fo r t h c o m i n g a b o u t w h a t h e
meant about my violent conduct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o y o u n e v e r g o t i n f o r ma t io n fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t .
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: What he…
CHAIRPERSON:

G i v i n g y o u fu ll i n fo r m a ti o n w h e t h e r w h a t y o u w e r e

t h i n k i n g h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t w a s e x a c tly w h a t h e w a s ta lk i n g a b o u t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s p e c u la t e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t o w h a t i t m i g h t r e fe r t o ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A t o n e p o i n t h e in t h e

s a m e l e t t e r h e r e f e r r e d t o m y p r e v i o u s c o n v i c ti o n s o f a s s a u l t a n d t h e n
in a n o t h e r p o i n t h e r e f e r r e d to m y v i o le n t – to m y p r e v i o u s c o n v ic ti o n s
20

in v o lv i n g v i o le n t c o n d u c t th e n I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t h e m e a n t .
CHAIRPERSON: He was talking about?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

H e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t

h e n c e I w r o t e to h i m a n d a s k e d h i m t o g iv e m e f u ll p a r t ic u l a r it i e s o f
w h a t h e m e a n t a n d h e f a il e d t o d o th a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t I t h i n k w h a t t h e C h a ir is

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
a s k in g a b o u t i n y o u r k n o w l e d g e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W a s t h e r e a n y o t h e r c o n v ic ti o n

o r p r o s e c u t io n o t h e r th a n t h e o n e t h a t y o u r e c a l l ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h o s e a r e t h e o n ly

c o n v i c ti o n s t h a t I – I k n e w a n d t h e p r o s e c u ti o n o f t h e m u r d e r c h a r g e fo r
w h ic h I w a s a c q u i t t e d in 1 9 8 5 t h a t is o n e th a t I k n o w. A n d t h e r e w a s
a ls o r e fe r e n c e to a n in c i d e n t w h e r e I w a s – w h ic h I d is c lo s e d a s w e ll
w h ic h h e a l s o a s k e d m e a b o u t w h e r e I w a s s t a lk e d b y p o l ic e i n – I w a s
10

d r i v i n g a c a r a n d t h e y s t o p p e d m e a n d th e y s a i d I w a s d r iv i n g
in c o n s id e r a te ly a n d t h e m a tt e r w a s – I d i d n o t e v e n a p p e a r i n c o u r t i t
w a s n o t p l a c e d o n t h e r o ll . Th a t w a s in I t h in k 2 0 1 3 o r 2 0 1 2 b e f o r e I
was appointed.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r ig h t le a v e th a t o n e a s id e f o r
the moment.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d l e t u s r e s tr i c t o u r s e lv e s t o
c o n v i c ti o n s o r p r o s e c u ti o n s . Is i t y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e o n ly i n c i d e n t s
w h ic h c o u l d h a v e f o r m e d – f e a s i b l y f o r m e d t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r o f s u c h

20

a n i n q u ir y b y th e P r e s i d e n t o r s u c h a s t a t e m e n t h a p p e n e d y o u s a y
when?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In 1 9 8 5 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 9 8 5 .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : 1 9 8 4 a n d 1 9 8 5 ja .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n l e t u s g o t o p a r a g r a p h 5 0

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
please.

U n d e r th e h e a d m y r i g h t t o a fa i r h e a r i n g y o u d e a l a t l e n g t h

w i t h y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th e n o t ic e o f s u s p e n s io n .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O r th e n o ti c e o f i n t e n t io n to

s u s p e n d o r th e n o ti c e t o c o n s i d e r s u s p e n d i n g y o u .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M r Pr e t o r i u s w h a t p a g e i s t h a t?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h o k a y.

I t h i n k m a y b e w e s h o u l d ta k e t h e

a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J a w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h 4 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B y r e fe r e n c e to t h e a n n e x u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o t h a t is f in e .

I t h i n k w e s h o u l d t a k e th e

a d j o u r n m e n t n o w s o t h a t h e c a n g e t a c h a n c e to lo o k .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t th o s e a ff id a v i ts a n d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d t h e n
w e c a n th e n r e s u m e a t t w o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

Ye s .

C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t r a is e

o n e i s s u e b e fo r e w e a d j o u r n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n p a g e s 1 2 th r o u g h t o p a g e 1 7
t h e s t a te m e n t s u m m a r i s e s p r o c e d u r a l m a t t e r s i n r e l a ti o n t o
s u s p e n s i o n a n d t h e C a s s i m I n q u ir y.

th e

I t is o u r v i e w t h a t a s n e i th e r t h e

s u s p e n s i o n n o r th e i n q u ir y e v e r t o o k p la c e .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

These are procedural matters

t h a t w e c a n s u m m a r is e v e r y b r ie f ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a s k in g i f y o u c a n d o t h a t b e f o r e w e t a k e t h e
adjournment.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . L e t u s d o t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , n o n o t b e fo r e a ft e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a ft e r.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I h a v e j u s t …
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .

I mean if you wanted to do it

n o w w e c o u l d d o i t b u t t h e n a d d m o r e ti m e a ft e r t w o b e f o r e w e r e s u m e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o C h a i r i t w i ll b e v e r y, v e r y

brief.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W i t h y o u r le a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f in e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I d o n o t i n t e n d to g o i n t o a n y

detail.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f in e . Th a t is f i n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n w e w il l s t a r t a t p a g e 1 8
a g a in .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y n o t h a t i s fi n e .

W e w i ll t a k e t h e l u n c h

a d j o u r n m e n t th e n a n d w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y Mr P r e t o r i u s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. To r e p o r t b a c k
in r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g .
10

T h e e n g i n e e r s h a v e tr i e d t h e ir b e s t t o

p r o d u c e a b e t te r m o r e a u d i b l e v e r s io n w i t h o u t s u c c e s s . T h e f a u l t li e s
w i t h th e r e c o r d i n g i ts e l f . T h e r e a r e w a y s o f e n h a n c in g r e c o r d i n g s b u t
t h o s e m u s t b e d o n e t e c h n ic a l ly a n d w e w i ll tr y t o d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

S e c o n d ly

C h a ir

we

have

e s t a b li s h e d t h a t th e d a t e in p a r a g r a p h 4 3 .8 - a s o r ig in a lly p l a c e d in
t h a t p a r a g r a p h - M a r c h 2 0 1 5 i s t h e d a t e a t l e a s t i n te n d e d b y th e
w i t n e s s M r N x a s a n a b u t w h a t w e w o u ld l ik e t o d o f o ll o w i n g y o u r a d v ic e
a n d h a v e r e c a s t is E X H I B I T E E 4 w h ic h is t h e t i m e l in e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h d i d y o u s a y i n r e g a r d t o 4 8 - 4 3 . 8 th a t i s th e d a t e
t h a t h e h a d in t e n d e d ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o k a y. S o it w a s n o t a n e r r o r …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f w h a t h e i n t e n d e d to s a y ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 2 0 1 5 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e i n te n d e d to s a y a n d h e w il l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Te l l u s a b o u t t h a t in d u e c o u r s e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o th e ti m e li n e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

M r N x a s a n a w o u l d y o u g o to

E X H I B I T E E 4 w h i c h i s a f te r t h e E E 4 d iv i d e r i n y o u r f il e ? D o y o u h a v e
that?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I h a v e i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t i s a t i m e li n e r e c a s t b y t h e

le g a l t e a m d u r i n g th e l o n g a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e h a v e a t t a c h e d r e l e v a n t
d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m o t h e r s o u r c e s . T h e r e a r e v a r i o u s s o u r c e s f o r t h i s
ti m e li n e a n d I w ill r e f e r to t h e m i n d u e c o u r s e in c l u d i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e a ffi d a v i t o f H a w t h o r n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e c o r r u p ti o n w a tc h m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r is i t t h e fr e e d o m a n d t h e l a w
m a t t e r ? I f y o u c o u l d g o to t h e ti m e li n e a t t h e p o i n t w h e r e it s a y s i te m 1

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- do you see that?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I s e e th a t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n 4 J u l y y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d b y
t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t t h a t h e h a d t a k e n a d e c i s i o n t o i n s ti t u te a n i n q u ir y
in t o y o u r f it n e s s t o h o ld o ffi c e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t h a s b e e n y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

O n 7 J u l y y o u o b t a in e d a n

o p i n i o n fr o m A d v o c a t e El li s S C . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. Th a t is - t h a t is o n p a g e
37 of your papers.

Th e s o u r c e o f t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n - t h a t d a te is th e

a ffi d a v i t o f M r H o f m e y r. I t is r e f e r r e d t o o n p a g e 3 7 . D o y o u s e e t h a t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Does that accord with your own

memory?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

made

certain

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s

A n d i n t h a t o p i n io n M r E ll is

including

a

recommendation

that

M s J i b a b e p r o v i s i o n a lly s u s p e n d e d p e n d i n g a n i n q u ir y i n t o h e r fi t n e s s
to

hold

o ff ic e .

T h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

c o n t in u e d

that

a

criminal

in v e s t i g a t io n fo r p e r ju r y b e o p e n e d a g a i n s t M s J i b a a n d fi n a l ly a
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s th a t t h e f i n d in g s a g a i n s t M s J i b a s h o u l d b e
r e fe r r e d t o t h e G e n e r a l C o u n c il o f t h e B a r f o r t h e ir c o n s id e r a ti o n .

Page 74 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t - th a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Then

on

1 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4

the

m e m o r a n d u m s ig n e d b y M r H o f m e y r w a s f o r w a r d e d t o M in is t e r M a s u th a .
T h a t m e m o r a n d u m a p p e a r s a n n e x u r e - a s a n a n n e x u r e t o t h is t i m e l i n e
C h a ir a t p a g e 1 - 8 - 4 .2 - 4 . I t i s a m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d 1 8 J u l y 2 0 1 4 fr o m
M r W A H o f m e y r a c ti n g
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u f in d i t M s ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

A s N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic

P r o s e c u t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A d d r e s s e d to M r M a s u th a .
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k h e i s s t il l l o o k i n g f o r t h e m e m o r a n d u m - I

think.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 1 - 8 - 4 . 2 - 4 a t t h e t o p . M S O N 1 - 8 - 4 .2 4 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A r e y o u a t th e ti m e li n e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G o t o t h e t i m e li n e .
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . T h e r e i s t h e t i m e l i n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t is j u s t a f e w p a g e s o n fr o m t h e
ti m e li n e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s , o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C a n y o u fi n d i t ? P a g e 1 - 8 - 4 . Yo u m u s t n o t b e
c o n fu s e d w i t h t h e b ig g e r n u m b e r s w h e r e t h e r e is 5 - 8 - 8 w h i c h is b i g g e r.

Page 75 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No I have got - I have got
t h e ti m e l in e . I a m b a t t li n g t o l o c a t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t i s a - i t is a m e m o r a n d u m o n t h e l e t te r h e a d o f
t h e N PA . T h a t p a g e is a ls o m a r k e d 5 - 8 - 8 i n b i g g e r n u m b e r s th a n 1 - 8 4 .2 4 . M a y b e s o m e b o d y s h o u ld …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I am on it, ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o a n d a s s is t h i m .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I found it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I found the memorandum.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir i s s u g g e s ti n g th a t y o u

ig n o r e t h e b o ld ty p e c l e a r n u m b e r i n g a n d y o u l o o k fo r t h e o t h e r
numbering.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e f o u n d i t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja, I found it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

W h e n e v e r th e r e i s a n y r e f e r e n c e - w h e n e v e r

M r Pr e to r i u s r e f e r s t o p a g e n u m b e r s a n d w h e n e v e r I d o t h e s a m e w e
w i ll b e u s in g t h e M S O N p a g e n u m b e r s …
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Oh yes. I - I see …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e w il l n o t k e e p o n s a y in g M S O N .

W e w il l j u s t

s a y 1 - 8 - 4 p o i n t w h a te v e r …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: (Intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r 1 - 8 - 4 . O k a y. S o i g n o r e th e b i g g e r p a g e n u m b e r s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y C h a ir.

Page 76 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I h a v e - I h a v e g o t i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. Yo u h a v e i t . T h e o r i g i n s
o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m - f ir s tl y is th a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m f o r w a r d e d b y
M r H o f m e y r t o Mr - t o M in is t e r M a s u th a o n 1 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u g o b a c k t o p a g e 3 7 - n o w
w e a r e b a c k i n t h e a ffi d a v i t o f W i ll ia m A n d r e w H o f m e y r w h ic h s t a r ts a t
page 34.
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : P a g e 3 7 . Ye s I a m b a c k a t
37.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u g o t th a t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 1 6 r e a d s :
“ I t w a s o n t h e b a s is o f t h i s o p i n io n … ”
T h a t is th e E ll is S C o p in i o n .
“ … t h a t t h e N D P P i n s tr u c t e d h is l e g a l a d v i c e a n d
M r G e r h a r d N e l t o d r a f t th e c o n fi d e n ti a l m i n is t e r ia l
m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d 1 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 . ”

20

Yo u h a v e t e s ti f ie d to t h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “ T h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s
approved by the NDPP …”
T h a t is y o u r s e l f ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 77 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

“ … s h o r t ly b e f o r e h e

d e p a r t e d o n l e a v e t o tw o d a y s s u b je c t t o a f e w
m i n o r c h a n g e s t h a t h e r e q u ir e d . S in c e h e r e g a r d e d
t h e m a t te r a s u r g e n t h e r e q u e s t e d m e t o s i g n t h e
memorandum once the changes had been made as I
w o u ld b e a c t in g a s N D P P d u r i n g h is a b s e n c e . ”
C o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

A n d s o t h a t i s h o w Mr H o f m e y r

c a m e t o s i g n t h i s m e m o r a n d u m a s A c t i n g N D P P b u t o n y o u r i n s tr u c t io n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t m e m o r a n d u m m a y - a n d -

a n d w a s i t s e n t w i t h y o u r a p p r o v a l a n d o n y o u r i n s tr u c t io n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O n my in s tr u c ti o n y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

The memorandum on page 37

p a r a g r a p h 1 7 m a d e a n u m b e r o f c o n c lu s i o n s a n d r e c o m m e n d a t io n s :
“ N a m e l y t h a t t h e N PA a n d t h e N D P P s h o u l d r e p o r t
t h e a d v e r s e f in d i n g s t o t h e M i n is t e r a n d P r e s i d e n t .
R e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t s h o u l d c o n s i d e r to
20

p r o v i s i o n a lly s u s p e n d M s J ib a a n d M r M r w e b i a n d
M s Mz i n y a t h i p e n d i n g a n i n q u ir y i n to t h e ir fi t n e s s t o
h o l d o ff ic e . ”
Over the page, page 38:
“ R e f e r t h e m a t te r a n d fi n d i n g s t o th e c o u r t s to o p e n
c r i m i n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s fo r p e r ju r y a g a i n s t t h e a b o v e

Page 78 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
m e n ti o n e d m e m b e r s o f t h e N PA a n d fo u r, s u b m i t t h e
fi n d i n g s o f t h e c o u r ts a g a in s t t h e th r e e m e m b e r s o f
t h e N PA t o t h e G e n e r a l C o u n c il o f t h e B a r. ”
S o t h o s e w e r e t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s m a d e b y y o u r o ffi c e ,
a p p r o v e d b y y o u a n d i n s tr u c te d b y y o u t o b e fo r w a r d e d to - t o t h e
M i n is t e r o f J u s tic e a t t h e t i m e - M in is t e r M a s u th a ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
ti m e li n e .
10

Right.

So to go back to the

O n 3 0 J u ly 2 0 1 4 - a n d I a m s ti ll o n t h e fi r s t p a g e o f t h e

ti m e li n e - y o u r e c e iv e d a n o ti c e o f i n t e n ti o n to s u s p e n d fr o m t h e fo r m e r
P r e s i d e n t . D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u h a v e t e s t if i e d t o t h a t .

The

r e fe r e n c e s a r e t h e r e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I s e e th a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O n 3 0 J u ly i t e m f iv e o v e r t h e

p a g e - M in is t e r M a s u th u - M a s u t h a r a t h e r - a c k n o w l e d g e d r e c e ip t t o
M r H o f m e y r o f h is m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d 1 8 J u ly.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I - I r e c a l l th a t .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

And then on 31 July 2014

C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t J u s t ic e Ya c o o b w a s a p p o in t e d to C h a ir a f a c t
fi n d i n g i n q u ir y in t o a l le g a t i o n s o f u n e t h i c a l c o n d u c t b y s e n i o r m e m b e r s
o f t h e N PA .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t ?

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e n o n 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 - a n d w e
w i ll c o m e t o th is i n d u e c o u r s e - y o u m a d e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i n r e p ly t o
t h e n o t ic e o f i n t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r P r e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o c l e a r u p s o m e th i n g . I t h i n k e a r li e r o n b e f o r e
lu n c h I m a y h a v e u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t y o u
10

h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h th e M i n is te r - M i n is t e r M a s u t h a a n d w i t h t h e
P r e s i d e n t o r m a y b e o n ly w it h t h e M i n is te r w i t h a v i e w to h i m c o n v e y in g
t h a t t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e c o n d u c t o f M s J i b a a n d
M r Mr w e b i a n d t h a t y o u h a d a s k e d t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t s h o u ld c o n s i d e r
s u s p e n d in g t h e m a n d i n i t ia t in g d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s a n d t h a t in s te a d
t h e P r e s id e n t i n s ti t u t e d t h e i n q u ir y a g a i n s t y o u a n d s ta r t e d c o n s i d e r i n g
t h e p o s s ib il i ty o f s u s p e n d i n g y o u b u t w h e n I lo o k a t th is ti m e l in e i t
a p p e a r s t h a t a c t u a l ly I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d a n d y o u m i g h t h a v e n o t
u n d e r s t o o d m y q u e s ti o n .
I t a p p e a r s th a t th e P r e s i d e n t n o ti fi e d y o u o f h is d e c i s i o n t o

20

in s t i tu t e a n i n q u ir y a n d t h e - y o u r a p p r o a c h to t h e M i n i s t e r a n d to t h e
P r e s i d e n t h a p p e n e d a f t e r a n d n o t b e fo r e h e i n i t ia t e d a n in q u ir y. I s - is
t h a t - d o y o u - d o y o u s e e t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
t a lk in g a b o u t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 80 of 192

Ye s I s e e w h a t y o u a r e

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . I t h in k C h a ir b e c a u s e
of the lapse of time …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B u t w e h a v e n o w v e r i fi e d

a s th e C h a ir h a s - h a d - h a d r e q u e s t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W it h th e s p e c i f ic d a t e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

B u t i n a n u ts h e ll o n - I

t h i n k t h e - th e c o n s p e c tu s o f m y e v id e n c e w a s th a t w h e n I a p p r o a c h e d
t h e P r e s id e n t t o i n s ti t u te d is c i p li n a r y s te p s a g a i n s t th e s e i n d iv id u a ls
w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s th e o t h e r w a y r o u n d . H e i n s ti t u te d - h e i n s t it u t e d
t h e - t h e C o m m is s i o n o f In q u ir y a g a i n s t m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t th e - t h e p o i n t I a m - I a m tr y in g t o m a k e a n d
I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e th a t w e u n d e r s ta n d e a c h o t h e r is th a t w h e r e a s
t h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d .

It is clear

fr o m t h is t i m e l in e th a t o n 4 J u ly 2 0 1 4 - th a t is i te m 1 …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u s a y :

th e f o r m e r - fo r m e r P r e s id e n t Z u m a

in f o r m e d y o u t h a t h e h a d t a k e n a d e c i s i o n t o in s t i tu t e a n i n q u ir y i n
t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 6 ) o f t h e N PA A c t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d 7 J u l y t h e r e is a n - t h e r e i s t h e E l lis

opinion.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e E ll is o p i n i o n h a d

b e e n r e q u e s t e d p r i o r t o 4 J u ly b u t t h is i s w h e n i t s e e m s t o e i th e r h a v e
b e e n r e c e iv e d b y y o u r s e l f o r h a v e b e e n s ig n e d b y c o u n s e l - t h e 7 t h 7 J u ly a f t e r y o u h a d b e e n in f o r m e d t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d d e c id e d t o
c o n s ti t u te a n i n q u ir y a g a i n s t y o u .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I th in k t h e - I t h in k t h e

o p i n i o n w a s s ig n e d o n 7 J u ly ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
requested it?
10

O f J u ly y e s , y e s .

Did you recall when you had

Wa s i t p r io r t o 4 J u l y o r w a s i t a f t e r th a t ?

Is t h a t

s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n r e c a ll o r n o t r e a l ly ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I - I cannot recall …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e c a ll , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O f th a t , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - a n d t h e n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f J u s ti c e Ya c o o b

h a p p e n s m u c h l a te r - e n d o f J u l y a n d s o o n . S o - s o w h a t I a m s a y i n g
is th e i m p r e s s io n I g e t n o w w h e n I l o o k a t t h is t i m e l i n e is d i ff e r e n t fr o m
t h e i m p r e s s io n I h a d b e f o r e lu n c h .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: (Intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i m p r e s s io n I h a d b e fo r e lu n c h w a s t h a t y o u h a d
20

a lr e a d y a p p r o a c h e d t h e P r e s i d e n t a s k i n g h i m t o t a k e a c ti o n o r c o n s id e r
t a k i n g a c t i o n a g a in s t M s J ib a a n d M r M r w e b i …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h il e y o u w e r e w a i t i n g f o r h i m t o a c tu a lly d o t h a t
w h a t y o u g o t w a s th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t d e c id e d t o t a k e a c t i o n a g a i n s t y o u
a s i t w e r e i n t e r m s o f - b y w a y o f a n i n q u ir y a n d c o n s i d e r i n g

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
s u s p e n d in g y o u b u t I a m - I a m s a y i n g t h a t i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t ’s d e c i s i o n t o i n s t i tu t e a n in q u ir y c a m e f ir s t b e f o r e y o u a s k e d
h i m t o ta k e a c t io n a g a i n s t M s J ib a .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t /
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t - th a t is t h e p o s i ti o n ,
yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. N o I t h o u g h t i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o c l e a r …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It u p .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I th i n k w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g
b e f o r e t h i s t h e r e w e r e th e s e c o m m u n ic a t i o n s b y w a y o f le t t e r s w h e r e
t h e P r e s i d e n t c a l l e d u p o n m e to r e s p o n d b y a p a r t ic u l a r d a t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A b o u t th e - th e m e d i a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And

th e

-

and

the

a l le g a ti o n s o f ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Security clearance?
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

S e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e a n d -

a n d th e c r i m i n a l c a s e s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

To p la c e t h a t i n i ts p r o p e r

Page 83 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c o n te x t a n d p e r h a p s t o a ll o w t h e C h a i r t o c o n s i d e r t h e - th e fu ll
c o n te x t . B e f o r e 4 J u l y h a d y o u a n y c o n t e m p la t io n a b o u t t a k i n g a c ti o n
o r i n i t ia t in g a c ti o n a g a i n s t M s J i b a a n d o t h e r s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir b e fo r e t h e n I w o u l d

h a v e c o n te m p l a t e d g e tt i n g l e g a l o p i n io n a n d a ls o a p p o in t in g t h e F a c t
Fi n d i n g C o m m i t t e e h e a d e d b y J u s t ic e Ya c o o b .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. I n t h a t r e g a r d w h a t w o u ld
y o u s a y to t h e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t y o u r d e c i s io n to in i ti a te a c t io n a g a i n s t
M s J i b a , M r w e b i a n d M z i n y a th i w a s m o ti v a t e d a n d p r o m p t e d b y t h e
10

r e c e i p t o f th e n o t ic e b y y o u f r o m t h e P r e s id e n t o f 4 J u l y t o i n s t it u t e a n
in q u ir y t o y o u r f i tn e s s t o h o ld o ffi c e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th a t w a s n o t th e p o s i ti o n

b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n a ft e r a s p e c i a l E x c o
m e e ti n g a r i s i n g f r o m w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g .

E s p e c i a ll y t h e m a t t e r

in v o lv i n g t h e c r i ti c i s ms o f t h e s e a d v o c a t e s . I c a m e t o le a r n a b o u t i t i n
the media and we were very much concerned. I remember that we had
a s p e c i a l E x c o t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e is s u e s a n d a s E x c o w e to o k a
d e c is i o n t h a t t h is is th e w a y t o - t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e is s u e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

t h a t E x c o m e e ti n g .

A lr ig h t .

We have not learnt of

Do you know more or less when that would have

t a k e n p l a c e ? W e c a n g e t a m in u te o f th a t C h a ir.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Yo u c a n g e t a - a m i n u t e o f
that.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t m a k e a n o te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I t h i n k i t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t t o - t o h a v e s i g h t o f

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w h e n th e b r ie f w a s s e n t t o c o u n s e l fo r a n o p i n io n o n w h e t h e r t h e
c r i ti c is m s o f M s J ib a a n d M r M r w e b i i n v a r io u s j u d g m e n ts w a r r a n t e d
d is c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n . P a r t ly fo r t h e p o i n t th a t M r P r e t o r i u s is m e n ti o n i n g
b e c a u s e i t m a y b e - w e d o n o t k n o w - i t m a y b e t h a t t h e p o s i ti o n m a y
b e t a k e n th a t w h e n y o u r e a l is e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s c o n t e m p l a ti n g o r
h a d d e c i d e d to c o n s ti t u te a n i n q u ir y a g a in s t y o u y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s
t h e n to e ff e c tiv e ly s a y w e ll I c a n n o t b e th e o n ly o n e to b e d e a l t w i th .
Let me ask him to also deal with Ms Jiba and Mr Mrwebi.
There may - there may be nothing wrong with that but it - it might be
10

d i ff e r e n t fr o m a s i t u a t i o n s u c h a s t h e o n e I t h o u g h t w a s t h e c a s e b e fo r e
lu n c h w h e r e y o u s a y t o t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t o t h e M i n i s t e r h e r e is
e v i d e n c e o f w h a t I b e li e v e is m is c o n d u c t b y M s J i b a a n d M r M r w e b i .
Ta k e a c ti o n a n d t h e n n o a c t i o n is b e in g ta k e n a g a i n s t t h e m .
I n s te a d a c ti o n i s b e in g t a k e n a g a i n s t y o u . S o t h a t is - th a t is
w h a t w e n e e d to lo o k a t to - t o u n d e r s ta n d b u t I t h i n k y o u m a y e v e n
a ft e r t o d a y n e e d t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y o n - o n e v e r y t h i n g .

So that

la t e r o n i f t h e r e i s a n y t h i n g y o u m i g h t w is h t o c l e a r u p i n y o u r e v i d e n c e
w h ic h y o u m i g h t h a v e s a id b e c a u s e w i t h o u t t h e b e n e fi t o f r e fr e s h i n g
y o u r m e m o r y o n o t h e r t h in g s t h e n y o u c a n c le a r u p . O k a y.
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I u n d e r s ta n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t a lr i g h t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is t h e o n l y c o m m e n t in

r e l a ti o n t o t h a t th a t w e n o w k n o w is t h a t …

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e o p i n i o n w a s r e c e iv e d o n th e
7th …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f J u ly.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f J u ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o h e s a id i t w a s s ig n e d o n t h e 7 t h - I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f - o f J u ly.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I - I found - I found

s o m e t h i n g h e r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is o n p a g e 1 - 8 - 4 . 2 - 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 - 8 - 4 . 2 - 7 ? Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In p a r a g r a p h 1 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y e s . Yo u w a n t t o r e a d t h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
“On
20

26 June

2014

th e

N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u ti n g

A u t h o r i ty b r ie f e d A d v o c a t e P a tr i c k E ll is S C to f in is h
a l e g a l o p i n i o n o n t h e fo ll o w i n g q u e s ti o n s :

a, the

d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e d u r e s a v a il a b l e r e s p e c t o f s e n i o r
p e r s o n n e l a t t h e N PA ; b , w h e t h e r d i s c ip li n a r y s te p s
o u g h t t o b e ta k e n a g a i n s t A d v o c a t e s J i b a , M r w e b i,
M z i n y a t h i a n d M b o y n i ( ? ) p r i m a r il y a s a r e s u l t o f

Page 86 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t h e fi n d i n g s m a d e i n th e j u d g m e n ts r e f e r r e d t o i n
paragraph 10 above and the judgment of Gorven J
in B o o y s e n v s A c t i n g N a t i o n a l D i r e c t o r of P u b l i c
P r o s e c ut i o n s a n d O t h e r s . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A t le a s t t h a t s e e m s t o in d ic a t e t h a t a t le a s t

a s k in g fo r - b r i e fi n g c o u n s e l fo r a n o p i n i o n h a p p e n e d b e f o r e y o u w e r e
in f o r m e d o f t h e Pr e s id e n t’s d e c i s i o n to i n s ti t u te d is c i p li n a r y - a n
in q u ir y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a n k y o u f o r t h a t M r N x a s a n a .

I w a s g o in g t o c o m m e n t o n t h e i m p r o b a b ili ty o f s e n i o r c o u n s e l fi n i s h i n g
a n o p i n i o n i n t h r e e d a y s b u t I t h o u g h t t h e b e t t e r o f it .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l th e - th e o n e t h i n g w h ic h I w a n t t o a s k a r i s i n g

o u t o f t h i s i s w h e th e r y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y M r N x a s a n a w h o o t h e r th a n
y o u r s e l f a n d t h e s t a t e a t t o r n e y i n v o lv e d i n th e m a t t e r a n d c o u n s e l m a y
h a v e - w h o e ls e m a y h a v e k n o w n th a t y o u h a d s o u g h t c o u n s e l ’s o p in i o n
o n th is m a t te r ? W o u ld t h e r e h a v e b e e n a n y b o d y e ls e th a t k n e w b e fo r e
4 J u ly ?
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s b e c a u s e th e r e q u e s t

went

CEO

under

th e

-

the

hand

of

the

th e n

Ms Karen

-

A d v o c a t e K a r e n Va n R e n s b u r g w a s th e C E O o f t h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e t h e o n l y o t h e r p e r s o n o r w a s th e m a t t e r

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
h a n d l e d i n s u c h a w a y t h a t a l o t o f o th e r p e o p le m a y h a v e b e e n a w a r e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And advocate - Mr Hofmeyr
a ls o w a s a w a r e , A d v o c a t e G e r h a r d N e l w a s a l s o a w a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But as far as you know Ms Jiba and Mr Mrwebi did not
know?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: When?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e 4 J u ly ?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I w il l n o t - I w ill n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o b a s is to …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr ig h t ; b u t a t t h a t s t a g e y o u r c o m m u n i c a t io n s

w i t h th e - w i t h t h e M i n i s te r o r t h e Pr e s id e n t w o u l d t h e y h a v e i n c lu d e d
y o u s a y i n g a n y t h i n g a l o n g th e li n e s t h a t y o u w e r e c o n t e m p l a ti n g
s e e k i n g a n o p i n i o n a b o u t d is c i p l in a r y a c t io n a g a i n s t th e m o r n o t r e a l ly ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

corrected.

C h a ir I a ls o s t a n d t o b e

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t I - I w a n t to b e l ie v e t h a t t h e

m e e ti n g s th a t w e s u b s e q u e n tly - t h a t I s u b s e q u e n t ly h e l d w i th t h e
P r e s i d e n t t h o s e m e e t in g s t o o k p l a c e b e f o r e t h e - b e f o r e J u ly o r - o r
June.
I t h i n k i t w a s a r o u n d M a y i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n a n d I w a n t to
b e li e v e t h a t d u r i n g o u r i n te r a c ti o n I h a d in f o r m a lly t o ld h i m - n o t in

Page 88 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w r i t in g - t h a t h e h a s b e e n m is l e d a n d in f a c t i t is th e v e r y p e o p le w h o
a r e d r iv i n g t h is a g e n d a b e fo r e I s e n t t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t I a s k e d
G e r h a r d N e l to s e n d t o h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:
the

Pr e s id e n t

Ye s b u t m y q u e s t io n w a s s p e c i fic a l ly a b o u t w h e t h e r
may

have

known

fr o m

been

t o ld

by

you

b e fo r e

4 J u ly 2 0 1 4 th a t y o u c o u l d b e - y o u c o u l d b e w a n ti n g t o h a v e
d is c i p l i n a r y a c t i o n t a k e n a g a i n s t Ms J i b a a n d M r Mr w e b i .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That - that is what I am

s a y in g C h a ir. T h a t is w h a t s h e c o u ld h a v e k n o w n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t d u r i n g o u r i n t e r a c ti o n
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t - b u t h o w w o u l d h e h a v e k n o w n ? D id y o u s a y
s o s p e c i f ic a l ly to h i m ? H o w w o u l d h e h a v e k n o w n th a t i s w h a t y o u w e r e
c o n te m p l a t i n g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir a l t h o u g h I c a n n o t

r e c a l l n o w b u t I w a n t to b e li e v e t h a t I h a v e r e a s o n to b e li e v e t h a t I - I
must

have

c o m m u n ic a te d

th a t

to

him

d u r in g

our

-

during

our

engagement.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f w e c o u ld g o b a c k t o i t e m f iv e
o n 3 0 J u ly 2 0 1 4 i t a p p e a r s th a t M i n is te r M a s u t h a t o l d M r H o f m e y r t h a t
h e h a d r e c e iv e d M r H o f m e y r ’s s i g n e d m e m o r a n d u m o f 1 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 .
T h a t i s a p p a r e n t f r o m t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n . W e h a v e n o t g o t a r e f e r e n c e
t h e r e y e t b u t th a t is i te m f iv e …

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e t i m e li n e . I t e m s i x r e a d s it e m s ix a c c o r d in g to y o u r o w n a ffi d a v i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr P r e t o r iu s . I t h in k I h a v e l o s t t h e p a g e
f o r t h e t i m e li n e n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. I t is - i t i s b e h i n d d iv i d e r
EE4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

I have got it.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a g e 2 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I h a v e g o t i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If we could go to item 6 on

3 1 J u ly J u s t ic e Ya c o o b w a s a p p o i n te d to C h a ir a F a c t F in d i n g I n q u ir y in q u ir y - a c c o r d in g t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n i te m 7 o n 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 i t
is a p p a r e n t th a t y o u m a d e r e p r e s e n ta t i o n s in r e p ly t o t h e n o tic e
c o n te m p l a t i n g y o u r s u s p e n s i o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S
20

SC:

Then

on

8 August

former

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w r o te to y o u t o ju s ti fy h is r e fu s a l t o p r o v id e p a r t ic u l a r s
o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s a g a in s t y o u ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d o n 8 A u g u s t i n a d d i t io n

M i n is t e r M a s u t h u - M a s u th a r a t h e r - m y a p o l o g i e s - a c k n o w l e d g e
r e c e i p t o f 1 8 J u ly 2 0 1 4 H o f m e y r m e m o r a n d u m i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w it h

Page 90 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
you?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
acknowledged

receipt

to

Mr Hofmeyr

I n o th e r w o r d s h e h a d a lr e a d y
himself

on

3 0 J u ly

but

in

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i th y o u o n 8 A u g u s t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W i th m e o n - o n 8 A u g u s t .
T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e s a i d h e - h e h a d r e c e iv e d i t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Then on the 8th of August item

1 0 y o u s u b m it t e d a f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t i n a n a p p li c a t io n i n t h e H i g h
C o u r t t o c o m p e l t h e f o r m e r p r e s i d e n t t o p r o v i d e y o u w i t h f u r th e r
p a r t ic u l a r s p u r s u a n t t o h is i n te n ti o n to h o l d a n i n q u ir y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .
Yo u d e a l w i th th is i n y o u r

a ffi d a v i t , t h e n o n t h e 11 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 y o u r e p l ie d t o M in is t e r
M a s u t h a , n o w w e s h o u l d p e r h a p s d e a l w it h t h a t 1 8 4 5 1 . 3 . C h a ir I
h e s i t a te t o m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e b ig b o l d n u m b e r s b u t t h e r e ’s a y e ll o w
o r a n o r a n g e m a r k e r i n t h e d o c u m e n t s f o ll o w i n g th e t i m e li n e , h e a d e d
20

“ le t t e r s ” . N o w i t’s a t E E 4 , j u s t b e f o r e E E 5 Yo u ’l l s e e a n o r a n g e s t ic k e r,
is t h e r e n o o r a n g e s t ic k e r in y o u r fi l e , o h d e a r … [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e y o u g o t a n o r a n g e s ti c k e r o n y o u r f il e Mr

Nxasana?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e fir s t o n e w i th l e tt e r w r i t t e n

o n i t.

Page 91 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I f o u n d th e l e t te r t h a t y o u

a r e r e f e r r in g m e to .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Have you?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

18451.4?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s w i th t h e b u l le t n u m b e r

618.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

W h a t i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r, 1 8 4 ?

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

5 8 .1 , it ’s n o t i n a n y s e q u e n c e

C h a ir b e c a u s e th e r e a r e o t h e r d o c u m e n ts i n te r v e n in g b u t if o n e g o e s to
t h e 1 8 4 n u m b e r s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’v e g o t 1 8 4 .5 1 . 1 w i th o u t a y e ll o w s tic k e r.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s t h a t i s th e o n e , t h a t is t h e

le t t e r a d d r e s s e d t o y o u b y M r M a s u th a , d o y o u s e e t h a t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I s e e th a t o n e .

T h e l e t t e r i s s i g n e d b y t h e M i n i s te r o n 8 A u g u s t

2014.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

D o y o u s e e th a t ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s I s e e i t .
N o w i n t h a t l e t t e r, M i n i s t e r

M a s u t h a s a y s to y o u , a s I r e a d it ,
“I

acknowledge

receipt

of

your

memorandum,

or

the

m e m o r a n d u m o f 1 8 J u l y 2 0 1 4 m a k i n g c e r t a i n r e c o m m e n d a t io n s
t o t h e P r e s id e n t ” .

Page 92 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M r Pr e t o r i u s w h e n w e h a v e d i ffic u lt y l o c a ti n g th e s e

d o c u m e n ts b e t t e r t o r e a d w h a t is th e r e o t h e r w is e t h e o n e w h o l o o k s f o r
it la t e r o n t h i n k s I t ’s th e w r o n g o n e . M y o n e s a y s s o m e t h i n g li k e ,
“I am in receipt of a memorandum”,
T h a t ’s t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e a r e w e lo o k i n g a t t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ’r e l o o k in g a t t h e s a m e o n e .

I t ’s j u s t t h a t y o u s a id , “ I a c k n o w l e d g e ” a n d I d i d n ’ t

s e e a c k n o w l e d g e a n d b e g in t o t h in k t h a t w e ll , la t e r o n s o m e b o d y w il l
10

s a y I’ m l o o k i n g a t t h e w r o n g l e t t e r, it d o e s n ’ t s a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s p e r h a p s th e d e s c r i p ti o n i n

t h e ti m e li n e is i n c o r r e c t . Ye s b u t i n th a t l e tt e r d a t e d t h e 8 t h o f A u g u s t
2 0 1 4 , M in is t e r M a s u th a s a y s th a t h e h a s r e c e iv e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m
s ig n e d b y W il li e H o f m e y e r.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d h e n o t e s t h a t , th a t

m e m o r a n d u m r e c o m m e n d s t h a t h e , t h a t is t h e M i n i s t e r a p p r o a c h e d t h e
P r e s i d e n t w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r r e q u e s t t o s u s p e n d A d v o c a t e s
J ib a , M g w e b i a n d M z in y a t h i ?
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

But he says to that before he

d o e s t h a t h e w a n t s c e r ta in in f o r m a t io n fr o m y o u ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is s o .

A n d y o u r e p ly t o t h a t le t t e r a t

1 8 4 . 5 1 . 3 to s a y,

Page 93 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
“ W e h a d n ’ t h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o m e t , le t ’s m e e t ” .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

And then over the page and on

t h e 1 2 t h o f A u g u s t t h e M in is t e r s a y s o n p a g e 1 8 4 . 5 1 .4 ,
“ I n o te t h a t y o u w a n t t o m e e t b u t g i v e m e t h e i n f o r m a ti o n
anyway”.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H

P R E TO R I U S

T h a t is s o .

SC:

So

that exchange

of

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t a k e s p le a s e b e t w e e n t h e 8 t h a n d t h e 1 2 t h o f A u g u s t
10

2014.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e n o n t h e 1 7 t h o f S e p te m b e r

2 0 1 4 , y o u s u b m i t a m e m o r a n d u m t o M i n is t e r M a s u th a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s r e s p o n d i n g t o w h a t h e

h a d r a i s e d i n h is le t t e r d a t e d t h e 8 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t m e m o r a n d u m is a t 1 8 4 . 1 .

T h e r e ’s s o m e t h in g w r o n g w i th t h a t n u m b e r in g is n ’ t

it ? E a r l ie r w e h a d 1 8 4 . 4 9 a n d s o o n a n d t h e n m u c h la t e r w e h a v e
1 8 4 . 1 . M r Pr e t o r i u s ?
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

T h e s e w e r e a ll p a g i n a t e a n d

n u m b e r e d in th e b r e a k C h a ir b u t 1 8 4 . 1 is i n f a c t t o w a r d s th e e n d o f th e
bundle

in

EE4.

It

s h o u ld

have

been

marked

with

a

–

perhaps…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

J a i f w e d o n ’ t c o r r e c t i t n o w, t h e n i n th e tr a n s c r i p t i f

w e r e f e r i t to - c o u l d c a u s e c o n f u s io n .

Page 94 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s i t is n u m b e r 1 8 4 . 1 – p a g e

1 8 4 . 1 b u t i t ’s o u t o f s e q u e n c e a n d w e c a n e a s il y p u t i t b a c k i n to
sequence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n t h e m e a n ti m e h o w w i ll y o u r e f e r t o i t?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B y i t ’s p a g e n u m b e r w h ic h i s

in d e l ib ly m a r k e d o n t h e p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 8 4 .1 ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k th a t is w h a t w i ll c a u s e c o n fu s i o n , o r y o u m e a n
10

y o u w il l t a k e i t b a c k to t h e r i g h t p l a c e l a t e r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Would

that

Ye s C h a ir.

work,

I’ m

just

tr y i n g

to

look

w h e t h e r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

It should because anyone

r e a d in g t h is b u n d l e w i ll g o t o 1 8 4 .1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o i t w a s ju s t l o c a t e d i n th e w r o n g p a r t o f th e

bundle?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e ll I ’ m s u r e t h e p e r s o n w h o

d i d i t w i ll s a y i t ’s c o r r e c t b u t …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i f t h a t w ill w o r k t h e n th a t ’s fi n e b e c a u s e t h e n

r e fe r r i n g i t t o p a g e 1 8 4 . 1 w o u ld b e f in e , o k a y, a lr i g h t i t l o o k s l ik e th a t
s h o u l d b e fi n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I h a d h o p e d th a t th e s t ic k e r s

Page 95 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w o u ld a p p e a r th e r e b u t fo r s o m e r e a s o n t h e y d i d n ’ t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n y w a y d o y o u h a v e 1 8 4 .1 ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

D o y o u h a v e i t C h a ir ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t ’s i m m e d ia t e l y a f te r t h i s

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w e ’ v e ju s t r e f e r r e d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w I f o u n d i t a l o n g ti m e a g o .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d th a n k y o u C h a ir.

J a i t w a s j u s t t h e p a g e n u m b e r s t h a t w e w o u ld u s e

t h a t I w a s c o n c e r n e d w h e t h e r i t w o u ld n ’t c a u s e m o r e c o n fu s i o n u s i n g
t h e m . I t h i n k i f it ’s ju s t a … . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir, y o u ’r e

f a ir ly m o r e s k i ll e d a n d e x p e r ie n c e d i n fi n d i n g p a g e n u m b e r s th a n o u r
witnesses and myself.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , l e t’s c o n t in u e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

1 8 4 . 1 , y o u ’v e g o t i t

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I’v e g o t it C h a ir.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t ’s th e m e m o r a n d u m th a t

y o u ’v e ju s t r e f e r r e d t o d a t e d 1 7 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 4 . H o w d i d – i f w e c a n
ju s t d e a l w i t h it b r i e fl y, h o w d id i t c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u th e n s e n t t h i s
memorandum to Minister Masutha?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

That was because after

M r H o f m e y e r – a f t e r th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s s i g n e d o ff b y M r

Page 96 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
H o f m e y e r w a s d e l iv e r e d to th e M i n is te r. T h e M i n i s t e r i n h is le t t e r, in h is
r e s p o n s e in h i s l e tt e r d a t e d t h e 8 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 r a i s e d s o m e i s s u e s
t h e n I w r o te b a c k to h i m o n t h e 11 t h o f A u g u s t a n d s a id t o h i m , I t h i n k i t
w i ll b e b e t te r f o r u s t o m e e t a n d d i s c u s s a l o t o f is s u e s p e r t a i n in g to
N PA b e c a u s e t h e M i n is te r h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d fo r a b o u t – f o r a p e r i o d
o f t w o m o n t h s , h e w a s i n o ffi c e f o r tw o m o n th s w i th o u t – w e h a d n o t
m e t b y th e n b u t t h e M i n i s t e r t h e n in s is t e d , I t h i n k th a t , i n p r i n c ip l e
u n d e r s t a n d th a t w e h a d t o m e e t b u t h e n e v e r th e l e s s f e l t I m u s t
respond, hence I then responded by way of that memorandum dated
10

t h e 1 7 t h o f S e p t e m b e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

A lr ig h t a n d y o u th e n s e n t th is

memorandum?
MR

MXOLISI

SANDILE

OLIVER

NXASANA:

Ye s

and

in

that

m e m o r a n d u m I b a s ic a l ly r e i t e r a te d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m
t h a t w a s s e n t o ff b y M r H o f m e y e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O k a y i f w e c a n c o n ti n u e w it h

t h e ti m e li n e f o r t h e m o m e n t , w e a r e g o in g t o c o m e b a c k t o o n e o r t w o
o f t h e s e i s s u e s i n d u e c o u r s e , o n th e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 a g a in s t
it e m n u m b e r 1 4 y o u th e n , t h r o u g h y o u r a t t o r n e y s a n d M r H a l l e y o f y o u r
20

agreement to a mediation process.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

N o w, g e n e r a ll y a s a m a t t e r o f

p r i n c i p l e h o w d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d m e d i a ti o n , d o e s i t i n v o l v e a n y
c o n c e s s i o n o n a p a r t o f a – o r a d m is s io n o n a p a r t o f a p e r s o n e n t e r in g
in t o a m e d i a ti o n p r o c e s s ?

Page 97 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Concession in…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e ll d i d y o u m a k e – w h e n y o u

a g r e e d t o a m e d i a t i o n p r o c e s s , d i d y o u in t e n d to c o n c e d e a n y t h i n g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

What was the purpose of the

m e d i a ti o n p r o c e s s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I f my m e m o r y s e r v e s m e

w e ll I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a s u g g e s ti o n , I th in k i t w a s – fr o m t h e
P r e s i d e n c y, I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i f i t w a s f r o m B o n s i w e M o k e n e , o n e o
10

t h e le g a l a d v is o r s a ft e r w e ’ d h a d t h o s e m e e ti n g s , t h a t th e y ’d s u g g e s te d
t h a t th e r e s h o u ld b e a m e d i a ti o n b u t I th i n k i n th e to n e o f th e i r le t t e r
s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e m e d i a ti o n s h o u l d b e c o n f id e n ti a l a n d w e r e s p o n d e d
b y s a y i n g I a g r e e i n p r i n c ip l e t h a t a m e d ia ti o n s h o u l d – t o a v a i l m y s e lf
t o a m e d i a ti o n b u t t h a t i t s h o u l d n o t b e c o n f i d e n ti a l b e c a u s e I
u n d e r s t a n d it .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e p o in t is a s o m e w h a t

d i ff e r e n t o n e , th e is s u e w h i c h w e w il l c o m e t o i n a m o m e n t i s w h e t h e r
y o u r e q u ir e d o r r e q u e s te d th a t y o u b e a ll o w e d t o v a c a t e y o u r o ff ic e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

N o I d id n o t m a k e t h a t

request.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I ’ m n o t s a y in g th a t y o u d i d ,

I’ m s a y i n g t h a t ’s a n is s u e t h a t w e w il l l o o k a t i n a m o m e n t , i t ’s a n i s s u e
o f s o m e c o n tr o v e r s y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Page 98 of 192

Ye s .
B y a g r e e i n g t o s e t tl e , t h e

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
d is p u te b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d w h o m e v e r e ls e , e v e n o n m o n e t a r y te r m s
c a n i t n o t b e i m p l ie d th a t y o u w e r e , i n f a c t , r e q u e s ti n g to le a v e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o t a t a ll .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Why not?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B e c a u s e I m a d e it c le a r, I

t h i n k y o u ’l l s e e in t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a ls o – th e e x c h a n g e o f
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n o u r m e e t in g s I m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s
t h is a t t it u d e t h a t I m u s t l e a v e o ffic e a n d I r e m a in s t e a d fa s t, s a y in g t h a t
t h e r e ’s n o r e a s o n f o r m e t o l e a v e o ffi c e b e c a u s e I s ti ll c o n s i d e r m y s e l f
10

fi t a n d p r o p e r t o h o l d o ff ic e , a n d d u r i n g th e e x c h a n g e o f t h e
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n m y a tt o r n e y s a n d t h e Pr e s id e n c y w e m a d e i t
v e r y c le a r – I m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r t h a t w e h a v e n e v e r, o n e , i n i t ia t e d t h e
d is c u s s io n s , t w o , e v e n t h e d i s c u s s io n s a r o u n d t h e s e t t le m e n t o f
w h a t e v e r is s u e th a t w a s t h e r e a n d t h e r e w a s n o w a y, w e m a i n t a i n e d
t h a t I s t il l – t h e r e ’s n o b a s is in l a w a n d i n f a c t fo r m e t o r e l in q u is h m y
p o s i ti o n a s t h e N a ti o n a l d i r e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u ti o n , b u t t h e n w i t h
t h e r ig h t th a t i f t h e y w a n t a s o u l , a n d I m a d e i t c l e a r i n t h a t l e t t e r, I
t h i n k t h e le t t e r d a t e d t h e 1 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , w e m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t
u n l e s s th e n I a m p a i d t h e

20

r e m a i n d e r o f m y c o n tr a c t th e n I w i ll

r e l i n q u i s h t h e p o s i ti o n a s t h e P r e s id e n t w o u ld w a n t m e t o v a c a te m y
o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e m e d i a ti o n , w h o c a m e u p w i t h

t h e id e a o f m e d i a ti o n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
P r e s i d e n c y, I t h i n k t h e le g a l a d v is o r s .

Page 99 of 192

It was – I wold say the

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON:

It was the Presidency?

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u t h i n k i t w a s th e Pr e s id e n t’s l e g a l a d v is o r ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

Ye s in o n e o f th e

correspondence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o Ms M o k e n e , B o n z i

M o k e n e , s h e w a s a - w a s s h e a l e g a l a d v is o r i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d th e n o f c o u r s e w e k n o w y o u d i d r e f e r e a r l ie r o n

t o M r H u ll e y, w a s h e a ls o a l e g a l a d v i s o r t o t h e Pr e s id e n c y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

H e w a s a ls o a l e g a l

a d v is o r t o t h e Pr e s id e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t a s b e t w e e n t h e t w o le g a l a d v is o r s a n d

m a y b e a n y o th e r s t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n t h e r e , a r e y o u c l e a r a s t o
w h ic h o n e c a m e u p w i t h t h e i d e a o f m e d i a t io n o r a r e y o u n o t s u r e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e l e t t e r s … [ i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

O h w a s i t i n a le t t e r ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: It was in a letter because
w e r e s p o n d e d i n a l e t t e r, w e r e s p o n d e d a n d r e fe r r e d t o s p e c i fi c a ll y th e
20

le t t e r t h a t h e h a d s e n t t o m y a tt o r n e y s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o I ’ m s u r e th a t l e tt e r I’ m s u r e w il l b e fo u n d .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If you would go to page 185 in

E E 4 . T h a t is a g a in t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h a t b u n d l e , p a g e 1 8 5 , y o u ’ ll s e e
t h e le t t e r o f 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 t h e r e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.

Page 100 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u h a v e i t th e r e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I have it with me/

It reads:

“ W e r e f e r t o t h e te l e p h o n ic c o n v e r s a t io n b e t w e e n t h e w r it e r
h e r e o f a n d y o u r s e l f o n th e 3 0 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 ” ,
A n d t h e w r i t e r is M r M a b u n d o o f y o u r a t t o r n e y s , c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
“We
10

c o n fir m

that

you

have

raised

concerns

about

th e

in o r d i n a t e t i m e t h e m a t t e r is ta k i n g a n d t h a t y o u r v i e w t h e
d e l a y i s a t tr i b u ta b l e t o o u r c li e n t . ”
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Ye s a n d t h e l e t t e r is

a d d r e s s e d to . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : To M r H u l l e y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , a n d Mr H u l le y is t h e r e

a c ti n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e P r e s i d e n t , I t h in k w e k n o w th a t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th e Pr e s id e n t a t t h e t i m e .

Yo u , Mr M a b u n d o s a y s h e w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y, h e s a y s fu r t h e r :
20

“ W e h a v e h o w e v e r u r g e n t ly a n d s u b s e q u e n t to o u r t e l e p h o n i c
c o n v e r s a ti o n c o n s u l t e d w i t h c li e n t w h o h a s i n s tr u c te d u s to
r e s p o n d a s fo ll o w s . ”
I t a p p e a r s t h a t t h is l e t te r w a s w r it t e n i n r e s p o n s e t o is s u e s r a is e d in a
t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n o f th e 3 0 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 , c o r r e c t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 101 of 192

O h y e s I s e e th a t h e r e .

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e r e s p o n s e i s a s f o l lo w s :

“ O u r c l ie n t i s w i lli n g t o p a r t ic i p a te i n t h e m e d i a ti o n p r o c e s s a s
y o u r c li e n t h a s p r o p o s e d . ”
Is t h a t a c o r r e c t s u m m a t io n o f e v e n t s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Ye s .
It

s ta t e s

here

th a t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I’ m – M r P r e to r i u s I m e a n y o u w a n t h i m t o

c o n fir m w h e t h e r i t w a s Mr H u ll e y ’s c li e n t w h o h a d p r o p o s e d t h e
10

m e d i a ti o n b e c a u s e – y o u h a v e n ’ t fi n i s h e d th e s u m m a t i o n , y o u w a n te d
h i m t o c o n f ir m w h e t h e r th a t ’s th e c o r r e c t s u m m a t io n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lr i g h t p e r h a p s l e t m e g o

t h r o u g h a ll fo u r fi r s t . P o i n t 2 :
“ A l t h o u g h c l ie n t w o u l d h a v e p r e f e r r e d t o h a v e t h e m a t te r
r e s o l v e d b y w a y o f i n q u ir y h e i s o f t h e v ie w t h a t i t is i n t h e
b e s t in t e r e s ts

of the

N PA t o h a v e t h e

m a t t e r f i n a lis e d

e x p e d it i o u s ly b y e x p l o r in g th e m e d i a ti o n r o u te . ”
P o in t 3 :
“It should be put on record that our client does not in any way
20

w a iv e a n y r i g h ts h e h a s in l a w b y a g r e e i n g t o e x p l o r e t h e
m e d i a ti o n p r o c e s s a n d a s s u c h th e p r o p o s a l s o f t h e m e d ia t o r
s h a l l n o t b e b in d i n g o n h i m u n l e s s e x p r e s s ly a g r e e d to i n
w r i t in g . ”
A n d t h e n t h e l e t t e r c o n t i n u e s o v e r th e p a g e w i t h a r e q u e s t t o i n i ti a t e
t h e m e d ia t io n p r o c e s s . N o w th e C h a ir a s k e d y o u d ir e c tl y w h e th e r t h e

Page 102 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
m e d i a ti o n i d e a o r p r o p o s a l e m a n a t e d f r o m y o u o r fr o m t h e s id e o f t h e
P r e s i d e n t o r t h e Pr e s id e n t’s a d v is o r s a n d y o u r e s p o n d e d a s y o u d i d b u t
does this assist you?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s i t d o e s b e c a u s e i t

s a y s th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 t h a t I w a s w i ll in g t o p a r t ic ip a te i n th e
m e d i c a t io n p r o c e s s a s p r o p o s e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I n d e p e n d e n t ly o f t h is l e tt e r d o

y o u r e c a ll w h e r e t h e p r o p o s a l c a m e f r o m ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:
10

Ye s , b e c a u s e I n e v e r

p r o p o s e d a n y m e d i a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y it c o u l d o n ly h a v e c o m e fr o m t h e s i d e o f
the Presidency?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O f th e Pr e s i d e n c y, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

In fa c t t h e le t t e r is v e r y

c le a r th a t I w o u ld h a v e l o v e d t o h a v e t h e m a t t e r r e s o lv e d b y w a y o f a n
in q u ir y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , is th a t l a t e r i n t h e l e tt e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

It i s in p a r a g r a p h 2 o f th e

le t t e r o n th e fir s t p a g e :
“ A l t h o u g h c l ie n t w o u l d h a v e p r e f e r r e d t o h a v e t h e m a t te r
r e s o l v e d b y w a y o f a n i n q u ir y h e i s o f t h e v ie w t h a t i t is i n t h e
b e s t in t e r e s ts

of the

N PA t o h a v e t h e

e x p e d it i o u s ly. . . ”
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.

Page 103 of 192

m a t t e r f i n a lis e d

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
“ . . .b y e x p lo r i n g t h e m e d ia t io n p r o c e s s . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is t h a t a s u g g e s ti o n t h a t y o u r p r iz e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t le t ’s g o t o th e i n q u ir y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e c a u s e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

They had proposed

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y p r o p o s e d m e d i a ti o n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e w i ll in g to p a r tic ip a te in i t.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

A s lo n g a s t h e p r o c e s s

w o u ld b e e x p e d i ti o u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n e x t l e t t e r w h ic h is a n

i m p o r t a n t le t t e r a p p a r e n tly i n t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts is a g a i n s t i t e m 9
on the next page of the chronology and it appears at page 187
i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h e l e t t e r o f th e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r a n d th a t ’s t h e l e t t e r
20

o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d i t ’s a d d r e s s e d b y y o u r a t to r n e y M r M a b u n d o
t o B o n is i w e M o k e n e , w h o i s t h a t , B o n is i w e M o k e n e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

Is t h a t t h e p e r s o n y o u r e f e r r e d

to earlier?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

Page 104 of 192

Ye s a s t h e l e g a l a d v i s o r

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
to President Zuma at the time.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right, and it says:

“ W e r e fe r t o t h e a b o v e m a t te r a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly t o t h e m e e t in g
w e h e ld o n t h e 8 t h i n s t a n t [ t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e 8 t h o f
D e c e m b e r ] a t t h e r e s id e n c e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t , w h e r e i n it w a s
d is c u s s e d , a d v i s e d a n d a g r e e d a s f o l lo w s . ”
N o w b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e w e r e y o u a t t h a t m e e t in g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s I w a s a t t h a t m e e ti n g .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

What happened at that

m e e ti n g , b r ie f ly ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s I w a s a t t h a t

m e e ti n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
b r i e fl y ?

W h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e t in g ,

W e ll fir s t ly w h o a tt e n d e d ?

MR MO XOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASA NA:

A t t h e m e e ti n g w a s t h e

P r e s i d e n t , my s e l f , M r M a b u n d a a n d th e p r o f e s s i o n a l a s s is t a n t w a s
t h e r e , th e a t t o r n e y, M s S h e l le y – I h a v e th e s u r n a m e , N t a n d a n i ,
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ja , a t t h a t m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w h o s e a t to r n e y w a s th a t ?
20

MR MO XOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

S h e w o r k e d i n th e o ff ic e

o f M r M a b u n d a a n d s h e w a s i n v o lv e d i n th i s m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a b u n d a h i m s e l f w a s n o t t h e r e ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

M r M a b u n d a a n d h e r s e lf .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e t w o o f th e m w e r e t h e r e .
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 105 of 192

Ye s t h e tw o o f t h e m

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
were there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h is .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

A n d w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d , I th in k th a t w a s th e

q u e s t io n , b r i e fly w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d a t t h i s m e e ti n g ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir it w a s t h e s a m e

is s u e a b o u t t h e i n q u ir y o r n o t th e in q u ir y, t h e s a m e i s s u e t h a t i f I p u t
m y f o o t d o w n th a t i f I – i f t h e y w a n t m e t o le a v e b e c a u s e I s t il l b e li e v e d
it w a s n o t n e c e s s a r y, t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n f o r m e to l e a v e , t h e y m u s t
10

b e p r e p a r e d to p a y m e fo r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f m y c o n tr a c t, o f m y p e r i o d
w h ic h i t w a s t e n y e a r s , a n d t h e n w e s t a r t e d m a k i n g s o m e c a lc u l a ti o n s
a n d a t th a t m e e ti n g I w a s t h e n a s k e d t o p r o v i d e B o n is i w e m y l e a v e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s M s M o k e n e ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t ’s M s M o k e n e y e s .

I w a s a s k e d to p r o v i d e – w e w e r e a s k e d t o p r o v id e t h e m w i th m y le a v e
d a y s a n d a ls o I t h in k m y t a x , s o m e t h i n g lik e t h a t , m y t a x d e t a i ls a n d my
s a l a r y d e ta il s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

T h is d is c u s s i o n t h a t t o o k p l a c e

a n d t h e s e tt l e m e n t p r o p o s a l fr o m w h o m d i d t h e s e t t le m e n t p r o p o s a l
c o m e , t h i s m e e t i n g w a s t a k i n g p la c e a t t h e r e s i d e n c e o f t h e f o r m e r
President.
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir I r e m e m b e r th a t

b y s e t t le m e n t p r o p o s a l , a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f ig u r e s o r t h a t w e s e tt l e i f I
m a y j u s t g e t c l a r i ty.

Page 106 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h i n k m a y b e M r P r e to r i u s y o u m i g h t w is h to , I

t h i n k y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t th e f a c t th a t s u b s e q u e n tl y t h e r e w a s a
s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a l m a d e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l I w i ll t e l l y o u w h y I a s k e d

the question.
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

B e c a u s e i t is a p p a r e n t fr o m t h e

c o n te n ts o f t h i s l e t t e r t h a t a s e t t le m e n t p r o p o s a l w a s m a d e t o y o u
b a s e d o n c e r t a i n l e g i s l a tiv e p r o v i s i o n s i n t h e N PA A c t .
10

MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

I n o th e r w o r d s i t w a s m a d e t o –

w e ll y o u te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t w a s t h e b a s i s o f t h e s e t t le m e n t p r o p o s a l
made to you.
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

L e t m e b e f a ir to y o u , r e a d t h e

le t t e r f ir s t a n d th e n a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n fo r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e C h a ir
p l e a s e , b e c a u s e i t g o e s t o c e r t a in a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t I s t il l n e e d t o p u t t o
y o u e m a n a ti n g fr o m t h e Pr e s id e n t h i ms e lf .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e s a m e l e t te r o f th e 1 0 t h ?
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e l e tt e r o f 1 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r.

MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s t h a n k s .

H a v e y o u r e a d t h e l e tt e r ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s b e fo r e M r P r e t o r iu s a s k y o u a
q u e s t io n b a s e d o n th a t l e t te r le t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e m e e t in g o f t h e 8 t h o f
D e c e m b e r a n d th is le t t e r s e e k s t o c o n f ir m s o m e t h i n g s e m a n a t in g fr o m

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t h a t m e e ti n g .
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o h a d c o m e u p w i t h t h e i d e a t h a t th e r e s h o u l d b e a
m e e ti n g h e l d o n t h e 8 t h , o r w h o c a m e u p w i t h th e i d e a o f th a t m e e t i n g ?
D o y o u r e m e m b e r o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I t h i n k th e i d e a o f t h e

m e e ti n g w o u l d h a v e c o m e u p w i t h I th in k i t w a s c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n
M r M a b u n d a , m y a t t o r n e y, a n d M r H u ll e y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, it m a y h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h d is c u s s i o n s a m o n g

them.
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h r o u g h d i s c u s s io n s

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. W h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t m e e ti n g a s
y o u u n d e r s to o d i t ? W h y w a s t h a t m e e ti n g c a l l e d a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e
p o s i ti o n ?
MR MOXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g

w a s t h a t w e w e r e s ti ll g o i n g to d is c u s s t h e is s u e o f w h e t h e r o r n o t ,
b e c a u s e w e a r e t r y i n g t o c o n v i n c e , to p e r s u a d e t h e Pr e s i d e n t , th a t is
o u r v i e w, w e a r e tr y i n g t o p e r s u a d e h i m t h a t t h e r e is n o n e e d f o r h i m t o
20

h o l d th e in q u ir y i n t h e fir s t p l a c e , a n d t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r m e t o
v a c a t e t h e o ffic e o f th e N D P P, w h i ls t o n t h e o t h e r h a n d i t w a s c le a r
fr o m th e m e e t in g t h a t th e y h a d a lr e a d y m a d e u p th e ir m i n d t h a t t h e y
wanted me to leave.
CHAIRPERSON: Now [excuse me] that – that – I was about to ask the
q u e s t io n .

Prior to this meeting had – did – had anybody from the

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P r e s i d e n c y e i t h e r t h e Pr e s i d e n t h i m s e l f o r t h o s e w h o w e r e a c ti n g o n h i s
behalf had – had they said or anybody said they wanted you to leave
y o u r p o s i ti o n o f N D P P e i t h e r i n a l e t t e r o r i n d i s c u s s io n s ?

I n o th e r

w o r d s I a m t r y i n g t o s e e w h a t w a s t h e – t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e s e m a y
h a v e b e e n n e g o t ia t io n s a i m e d a t r e s o lv i n g s o m e th i n g o r s o m e d i s p u t e .
W h a t w a s th e d is p u te t h a t w a s s o u g h t t o b e r e s o lv e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f th e r e w a s a d is p u te ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

C h a ir e x c e p t t o s a y

a c c o r d i n g to m y r e c o ll e c t io n w h e n e v e r I – I s p o k e t o P r e s i d e n t Z u m a
w e w o u l d s p e a k a n d I w o u l d c o n v in c e h i m I w o u l d p u t m y s id e o f th e
s t o r y to h i m i n fo r m a l ly a n d I w o u l d p e r s u a d e h i m I w i ll te ll h i m t h a t h e
w a s m is l e d b u t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y h e w o u ld s e e m t o b e g e t t in g t o
u n d e r s t a n d in g m e b u t t h e n a t t h e e n d w o u l d t h e n c o m e s a y s o m e t h in g
a b o u t [ A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ] I th i n k b u t y o u – I th i n k w e m u s t ju s t s e tt l e
t h is y o u h a v e t o l e a v e a n d y o u h a v e t o s o r t o u t y o u r i s s u e s .

The

is s u e s w i th m y l e g a l – w it h m y l e g a l t e a m o f y o u v a c a te t h e o ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id t h a t e v e r c o m e fr o m h i m ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: And are you sure about that?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I am sure about it.
CHAIRPERSON: That he said he wanted you to leave?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w – in t e r m s o f t h e t i m e fr a m e a r e y o u a b le t o
in d i c a t e a r o u n d a b o u t w h e n h e m a y h a v e s a i d t h a t f o r t h e fir s t t i m e to

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
you?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir a l t h o u g h I c a n n o t

remember the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t s t il l 2 0 1 4 o r w a s i t i n 2 0 1 5 ? Wa s i t a r o u n d m i d
– w a s i t a f t e r – w a s i t a f t e r h e h a d n o t i fi e d y o u t h a t h e w a s – t h e r e w a s
g o i n g t o b e a n i n q u ir y o r w a s i t e v e n b e f o r e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E v e n – e v e n b e f o r e C h a ir
b e c a u s e i n o u r e n g a g e m e n t s b e f o r e h e e v e n s e n t th a t l e t t e r d a t e d J u l y
2 0 1 4 w h e r e h e in d i c a t e d th a t h e i n t e n d e d e s t a b li s h in g a c o m m i s s i o n o f
10

in q u ir y. I w a s u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n th a t h e h a d c h a n g e d h i s m in d . H e
w a s n o l o n g e r g o in g t o i n s ti t u te b e c a u s e o f t h e i n t e r a c ti o n s t h a t w e h a d
t o g e th e r. Th e n i t c a m e a s a s u r p r is e w h e n h e t h e n s o m e r s a u l te d a n d
c h a n g e d h is m i n d a n d s e n t m e t h a t l e t te r t h a t h e – h e – h e in t e n d e d to
– t o e s ta b lis h th e c o m m i s s i o n o f i n q u ir y. T h e n w h e n w e e n g a g e d a n d
t h e r e w a s th e s e e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h m y a t to r n e y s a n d Mr H u l le y a n d
B o n s il e a n d h i m s e l f I t h i n k w e tr ie d e v e n i n t h o s e m e e ti n g s to p e r s u a d e
t h e m t h a t th e r e w a s n o t h i n g r e a l ly t h a t w a r r a n t e d m e t o le a v e t h e o ffi c e
a n d w e p o i n te d o u t th a t e v e n a t t h e in q u ir y I w il l – t h e in q u ir y w il l n o t
e v e n fi n d t h a t I w a s n o t fi t a n d p r o p e r t o c o n ti n u e h o l d in g o ff ic e . B u t

20

t h e n I t h i n k t h e – th e d e c i s i o n m u s t h a v e b e e n ta k e n b e c a u s e a t t h e
e n d w e w o u ld t a lk a n d t a lk b u t a t t h e e n d t h e n h e w i ll s a y b u t y o u k n o w
I t h i n k y o u – y o u h a v e t o – to s te p a s id e a n d y o u m u s t t h e n fo r m a l is e
t h e is s u e o f h o w y o u a r e g e t t in g p a i d a n d y o u w i ll m e e t w it h t h e – w i th
m y l e g a l t e a m t o d is c u s s t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t d is c u s s i o n s o r th e – e i th e r

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d is c u s s io n s i n p l u r a l o r t h e d i s c u s s io n s i n g u la r w h e r e t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t s a i d t h a t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e th e – y o u r e c e i v e d th e l e tt e r
s a y in g t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a n i n q u ir y i n t o y o u r f it n e s s t o h o ld o ffi c e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE O LIVER NXA SANA:

Ye s i n – i n s o m e o f t h e

d is c u s s io n s b e f o r e th a t a n d e v e n a f t e r t h a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E v e n a f t e r th e l e t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e r e h e – h e s a id y o u n e e d t o l e a v e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was your response?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir I – I r e m a i n e d

s t e a d f a s t a n d I r e m a in e d – I a lw a y s t o l d h i m t h a t t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n
f o r m e to l e a v e a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I k e p t o n r e p e a ti n g m y s e l f t h a t t h i s
w a s a c a m p a i g n a g a i n s t m e b y th e s e i n d i v id u a l s a n d t h e y m i s l e d h i m
a n d t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n fo r m e to l e a v e a n d e v e n a t t h e i n q u i r y I to l d
h i m – I t o l d th e P r e s i d e n t e v e n t h e i n q u ir y t h a t t h e y h a v e – h e h a d
c o n s ti t u te d I t o l d h i m t h a t t h a t in q u ir y w il l n o t fi n d a n y t h i n g a g a i n s t m e .
20

That…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I t w a s n o t g o i n g t o fi n d

t h a t I a m n o t fi t a n d p r o p e r t o c o n t in u e h o l d i n g t h e o ffi c e . A n d th e r e
w e r e n e g o t ia t io n s a ls o . W e w o u ld m e e t e v e n a f t e r h e h a d is s u e d t h e s e
le t t e r s w e a ls o m e t . I r e m e m b e r w e m e t a g a i n l ik e w e – I s a y w e m e t a t

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M h la m b a n d l o v u th a t w a s a f te r t h e – th e 4 J u l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e t h e o n e s c e n a r i o i s t h a t t h e d is c u s s i o n s

c o u l d h a v e b e e n a t le a s t a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e b e e n a b o u t w h e t h e r o r n o t
y o u w e r e fi t to h o l d o ff ic e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o r d e r f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t t o d e c id e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s
a n e e d fo r a n in q u ir y. T h a t is t h e o n e s c e n a r i o . A n o t h e r s c e n a r i o a n d
t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h a t s c e n a r i o t h e P r e s i d e n t c o u l d h a v e a d o p te d t h e
a tt i tu d e th a t I d o k n o w w h a t t h e o u tc o m e o f th e in q u ir y w i ll b e i f t h e
10

in q u ir y is h e l d b u t i f y o u w a n t to p e r s u a d e m e t h a t y o u a r e fi t a n d – to
h o l d o ff ic e a n d t h e r e is n o n e e d f o r a n i n q u ir y I a m h a p p y t o l is t e n a n d
if y o u p e r s u a d e m e I w i ll t e r m i n a t e t h e i n q u ir y. T h a t is o n e s c e n a r i o .
A n o th e r s c e n a r i o m a y h a v e b e e n t h a t h e m a y h a v e b e e n s a y in g I
b e li e v e y o u a r e n o t f it a n d I b e l i e v e th a t t h e i n q u ir y w il l fi n d t h a t y o u
a r e n o t fi t t o h o ld o ffi c e i n w h ic h c a s e y o u w i ll h a v e to g o . R a t h e r t h a n
u s r e a c h i n g t h a t p o in t w h y d o y o u n o t – w h y d o w e n o t f in d a n o t h e r
w a y.

T h a t – m a y b e t h a t is a n o th e r o n e .

M a y b e t h e r e is a t h ir d o n e

w h ic h m a y h a v e b e e n I w a n t y o u t o l e a v e b u t l e t u s r a t h e r a g r e e o n th e
b a s is o n w h ic h y o u w i ll le a v e .
20

S o a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y c a t e g o r ic a lly

w h ic h o n e o f t h o s e fi t t e d i n t o h is s i t u a t io n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir w h a t I a m c e r t a i n o f
d u r i n g o u r d is c u s s i o n s w i t h P r e s id e n t Z u m a i t b e c a m e c l e a r t o h i m t h a t
t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t w h ic h h e c o n c e d e d t o m e t h a t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t
h e w a s g iv e n a b o u t m e h e w a s m is l e d . B u t I d o n o t k n o w w h y th e n h e
decided because I do not know who he was talking to and who are

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t h e s e p e o p le t h a t w e r e p r e s s u r is i n g h i m a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t h e w a s
b e i n g p r e s s u r i s e d . I d o n o t k n o w b e c a u s e I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t h e
w a s g e t ti n g p r e s s u r e s o m e w h e r e t o g e t m e o u t o f – o f m y o ff ic e .
B e c a u s e w h e n w e s p o k e u lt i m a t e ly h e c o n c e d e d t h a t h e w a s m is le d a n d
t h e is s u e o f my f i tn e s s o r o th e r w i s e i t d i d n o t f e a tu r e . A ll t h a t h e w a s
tr y i n g i n a n u t s h e ll j u s t t o s u m m a r is e a l t h o u g h I c a n n o t r e c a ll th e
d e t a i ls o f t h e m e e t in g s o n v a r i o u s d a te s b u t t h e c o n s p e c tu s o f t h e
m e e ti n g s w a s to tr y a n d p e r s u a d e m e t o r e s i g n w h ic h I r e m a i n e d
s t e a d f a s t a n d r e f u s e d to d o it . A n d I s a i d b e c a u s e t h e y a r e s o c o n t e n t
10

o n s e e i n g m e o u t o f t h e N PA t h e n th e y m u s t b e p r e p a r e d t o p a y m e t h a t
is – t h a t w a s th e b a s is o f t h o s e m e e t in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o d o y o u – d i d y o u s a y t h a t h e c o n c e d e d th a t
h e h a d b e e n m is l e d a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u w e r e f it o r n o t fi t t o h o l d o ff ic e
o r i n te r m s o f t h e t h in g s t h a t m a y h a v e m a d e h i m d e c i d e o n t h e i n q u ir y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e – t h a t is – t h a t is m y
v ie w C h a ir. B e c a u s e h e c o n c e d e d . B e c a u s e o n e o f t h e t h i n g s w h e n h e
s a i d y o u k n o w t h e s e p e o p l e th e t h i n g s th a t t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e t e l li n g
h i m o n e o f th e th i n g s t h a t p e o p le w e r e te ll in g h i m t h a t I n e e d Mr
N g c u k a fo r in s t a n c e w h i c h h e c o n c e d e d I t o l d h i m t h a t w a s a b l u e li e .

20

T h e o t h e r th i n g is t h e o n e t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r o n b e f o r e t e a b r e a k
t h a t a f t e r w e h a d m e t – I h a d m e t w i t h h i m a t K i n g s H o u s e in D u r b a n . I
t h i n k s o m e p e o p l e p ic k e d u p o r t h e i n f o r m a ti o n le a k e d t h a t w e a r e
m e e ti n g w e a r e n o w t a lk in g b e c a u s e i n it i a l ly h e w a s r e l u c t a n t t o e v e n
meet with me. He did not want to meet with me. I think my – I – these
p e o p l e w h e n t h e y f o u n d o u t t h a t w e a r e n o w t a lk i n g t h e y w e r e n o t

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h a p p y s u c h t h a t th e y s ta r t e d – th e y t r i e d to b l o c k o u r m e e ti n g ; th e
m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d w i t h o u t m y a t t o r n e y s , w i t h h i m a t M a h la m b a n d l o v u .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O n e s – a t o n e s ta g e th a t is
w h e r e I e v e n – I h a d e v e n s a i d t o th e p e r s o n w h o s a i d th e P r e s i d e n t
w a s s c a r e d t h a t I m i g h t b e r e c o r d in g h i m . Th e n I s a id n o I w o u l d c o m e
t h e r e n a k e d i f i t n e e d s b e . A ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s I – i t – a ll o f t h o s e th i n g s
t h e y c o n v i n c e d th a t h e w a s n o w – h e h a d c o n c e d e d th a t h e w a s m i s l e d
in – b y b e i n g – b y b e in g g iv e n a ll t h e i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e w r o n g
10

in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t m e a n d t h a t h e s h o u ld n o t h a v e t a k e n t h is d e c is i o n .
B u t I d o n o t u n d e r – I d o n o t k n o w f o r s o m e s tr a n g e r e a s o n s th e r e w a s
– t h a t is m y – m y v i e w th e r e w a s s o m e p r e s s u r e s o m e w h e r e t h a t h e =
h e h a s to t a k e t h is d e c is io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e l e g a l b a s i s o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t
proposal that was made to you on the 8 December 2014 did you
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th a t w a s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair I understood what it
was. It was based on the fact that because they wanted me to resign

20

t h e y w e r e ta lk i n g t h a t I s h o u l d l e a v e . Th e n I h a d s a i d I w il l o n ly l e a v e
if I a m p a id t h e f u l l a m o u n t o f m y c o n tr a c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

A n d t h e n t h e s e t t le m e n t

t h a t – p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s m a d e b y M s M a k h e n e h e th e n – s h e t h e n
r e fe r r e d to th e p r e s c r ip ts o f t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e A c t a n d t h e N PA Ac t a n d

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c a l c u l a te d i t a c c o r d in g t o th o s e p r e s c r i p ts th e n w e d i s a g r e e d th e r e .
B e c a u s e o u r v ie w a n d m y v i e w w a s t h a t I w a s – i f I w a s l e a v in g I w a s
n o t l e a v in g N PA i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 9 ) o f t h e N PA Ac t . Th a t w a s o u r
argument. The argument was that…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W a s th a t y o u r c o n s i s te n t v i e w

t h r o u g h o u t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

T h a t w a s m y c o n s is t e n t

v ie w t h r o u g h o u t . B e c a u s e i n te r m s o f t h a t p r o v is i o n t h e N D P P m a k e s a
r e q u e s t to t h e P r e s i d e n t . T h e n w e a r e s a y in g a n d r e m e m b e r th e r e w a s
10

li ti g a t i o n t h a t I h a d i n i ti a t e d a g a in s t t h e P r e s id e n t .

B a s e d o n th e

li ti g a t i o n f o r m e n o t c o n ti n u e w i th t h e li ti g a ti o n a n d n o w w e s a y w e a r e
s e t tl in g a n d I a m n o t le a v i n g in t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 8 ) . Yo u w a n t m e t o
le a v e th e n y o u m u s t b e p r e p a r e d to p a y. I t is a b r e a c h o f c o n t r a c t. I t
is c o n s t r u c tiv e d is m i s s a l i n o t h e r w o r d s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

C a n I j u s t t a k e t h is

o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e a d o n t o t h e r e c o r d t h e p r o v is i o n s o f S e c t io n 1 2 ( 8 ) o f
t h e N PA A c t? I t r e a d s :
“ T h e P r e s i d e n t m a y a l l o w th e N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o r a
D e p u ty N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r a t h is o r h e r r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e
20

h is o r h e r o ff ic e .
i. O n a c c o u n t o f c o n ti n u e d i ll h e a lt h .
ii . F o r a n y o t h e r r e a s o n w h i c h t h e Pr e s i d e n t d e e m s
s u ffi c i e n t . ”
S u b - S e c t io n B r e a d s :
“ T h e r e q u e s t i n te r m s o f p a r a g r a p h A 2 s h a ll b e

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a d d r e s s e d to th e Pr e s i d e n t a t l e a s t s i x c a l e n d a r
m o n th s p r io r t o t h e d a te o n w h ic h h e o r s h e w is h e s
t o v a c a te h is o r h e r o ffic e u n l e s s t h e Pr e s i d e n t
g r a n ts a s h o r te r p e r i o d i n a s p e c if ic c a s e . ”
A r is i n g o u t o f t h e p r o v is i o n s o f th a t s e c t io n d i d y o u e v e r r e q u e s t o r
in t e n d to r e q u e s t o f th e Pr e s i d e n t t o p e r m i t y o u t o v a c a t e o ffic e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir I n e v e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i s i t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t
t h e s e tt l e m e n t p r o p o s a l m a d e to y o u w a s m a d e o n th e b a s is o f t h a t
10

s e c t io n t h a t i t w o u ld b e t h e n t a k e n t h a t y o u h a d r e q u e s t e d y o u r
t e r m in a ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V J U L I E A N N H O WA R D : A lr i g h t t h e n y o u d e a l w i th t h a t in …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y w o u ld – c a n y o u ju s t r e p e a t Mr Pr e t o r i u s

t h e q u e s t io n . I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e a n s w e r c o r r e c tl y. I t h i n k I m a y
have missed something.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Did you understand that the

s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a l m a d e t o y o u w a s l e t m e p u t i t s li g h t ly d i ffe r e n tly
in t e n d e d t o b e a n i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f S e c t i o n 1 2 ( 8 ) .
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

In other words you are

r e q u e s t in g

Pr e s id e n t

your

te r m i n a ti o n

asking

the

to

a l lo w

your

t e r m in a ti o n i n t e r m s o f t h a t s e c t i o n ?
MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:
a n d th is w h y w e r e j e c t e d i t .

Page 116 of 192

Th a t i s c o r r e c t S ir C h a ir

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

R i g h t a n d y o u r r e je c ti o n i s

explained…
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h a t is …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e le t t e r [i n d is t in c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

That is what I do not understand.

M r P r e to r i u s h a s

ju s t r e a d t o y o u S e c t i o n 1 2 ( 8 ) .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i t c o n t e m p la t e s t h a t t h e N D P P m a y r e q u e s t t h e

P r e s i d e n t to p e r m i t h i m o r h e r t o l e a v e o ffi c e y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w M r P r e t o r i u s a s k e d y o u e a r li e r o n d i d y o u e v e r

r e q u e s t th e P r e s id e n t t o p e r m i t y o u t o l e a v e o ffic e a s N D P P a n d I
understood you to say no you never m ade such a request.

Did I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h i s l a s t q u e s t io n th a t M r

P r e t o r i u s p u t t o y o u a n d h e i s g o i n g to te ll m e i f I m is u n d e r s t o o d i t a n d
y o u a r e g o i n g to t e l l m e if y o u h a d t h e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d i n g – a d i ffe r e n t
u n d e r s t a n d in g . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t h e p u t t o y o u i s w h e t h e r y o u r
20

u n d e r s t a n d in g

was

that

th e

s e t t le m e n t

agreement

was

an

i m p l e m e n ta t io n o r th e s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a l w a s a n i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f
S e c t io n 1 2 ( 8 ) a n d I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y y e s t h a t is c o r r e c t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a i r I u n d e r s to o d Mr

P r e t o r i u s t o b e s a y i n g – h is l a s t q u e s ti o n w a s t h a t t h e p r o p o s e d
s e t tl e m e n t I u n d e r s t o o d t h e p r o p o s e d s e tt l e m e n t t o b e in t e r m s o f

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S e c t io n 1 2 ( 8 ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e n I s a id y e s I – th a t is
h o w I u n d e r s t o o d a n d th a t is w h y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r o p o s e d – th e p r o p o s a l ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s p r o p o s e d t h a t is th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

T h a t is t h e – th a t is t h e

w o r d . T h a t is w h y w e r e j e c t e d i t b e c a u s e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e o f th e v ie w t h a t I h a v e
n o t r e q u e s t e d – I h a d n o t m a d e a r e q u e s t t o l e a v e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o m a y b e I a m – I th e n m is – o r m a y b e i t is
w h e n w e g o t o t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s w e w il l c o m e t o t h e

document in a moment.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h is is j u s t b y w a y o f

in tr o d u c t i o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To w h a t i s m a d e v e r y c l e a r i n t h e
le t t e r.

M y q u e s t i o n w a s i n t e n d e d to f o c u s o n t h e in t e n t io n o f t h e

p r o p o s a l r a t h e r t h a n t h e i n t e n ti o n o f a n y s u b s e q u e n t a g r e e m e n t a n d I
t h i n k M r N x a s a n a u n d e r s to o d i t t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r s to o d j a . O k a y.

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A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e

in t e n t io n b e h in d th e p r o p o s a l m a d e t o y o u t o b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d s o p e r h a p s th a t is a b i t

c le a r e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 th e n o n
p a g e 1 8 7 . T h is is y o u r a tt o r n e y ’s s t a te m e n t t o t h e P r e s i d e n c y i n r e g a r d
to the proposal made to you.
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s t a te s :
“ F o l l o w in g o u r d i s c u s s i o n s o f t h e 8 t h i n s t a n c e a n d t h e
s u b s e q u e n t in s tr u c ti o n s

fr o m c li e n t r e g a r d in g

the

p r o p o s e d s e t tl e m e n t w e w o u ld l ik e to p la c e t h e
f o ll o w i n g o n r e c o r d .
2 .1 W e a r e o f t h e fir m v i e w th a t t h e p r e s c r i p ts w h i c h
y o u s o u g h t t o r e ly o n p e r t a i n i n g t o s e t t le m e n t a r e n o t
a p p lic a b l e in t h e p r e s e n t c a s e f o r t h e f o ll o w i n g
reasons.”
20

Wa s t h a t le t t e r s e n t w i t h y o u r k n o w l e d g e ? I t h i n k y o u s a y e l s e w h e r e i n
y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t y o u h e l p e d d r a f t t h is l e tt e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is w h y I

k n o w t h e s e p r o v is i o n s b e c a u s e I h e l p e d – I w a s i n v o lv e d i n d r a f t in g
t h is le t t e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
“ 2 .1 . 1 Th e p r o v is i o n s o f t h e N PA A c t w h ic h y o u s e e k
t o r e ly o n d e a l w it h t h e s c e n a r i o w h e r e t h e N D P P i s
r e m o v e d fr o m o ff ic e i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 6 ) A . Th e
p r o c e d u r e t h e r e o f i s s u c c in c t ly s p e l t o u t i n S e c ti o n
1 2 ( 6 , 7 , 8 a n d 9 ) o f th e N PA A c t . ”
T h e n c o n ti n u e s t o r e a d :
“ W e w o u ld c o n s e q u e n t ly l ik e t o d r a w th e f o l lo w in g to
your attention.
3 .1

Th a t i t h a s n e v e r b e e n th e N D P P ’s i n te n ti o n t o

r e s ig n fr o m h is p o s i t io n s i n c e h e c o n s i d e r s h i m s e l f t o

10

b e a fi t a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n to h o l d t h is p o s i ti o n . ”
T h a t is w h a t is s t a t e d w a s th a t y o u r v i e w a t th e ti m e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That was my view at the

ti m e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
“4.

T h e p r o p o s e d s e t tl e m e n t w a s tr i g g e r e d b y t h e

d is c u s s io n s w h ic h t h e N D P P h a d w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t
f o ll o w i n g t h e l a t te r ’s ’ a n n o u n c e m e n t o f h i s d e c is io n
t o h o l d a n in q u ir y i n to t h e N D P P ’s fi t n e s s t o h o l d
20

o ffic e a n d t h e p o s s ib l e s u s p e n s i o n p e n d in g t h e
in q u ir y. ”
5.

O u r in s t r u c t i o n s f u r th e r a r e th a t t h e m e e ti n g

b e t w e e n th e N D P P a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t o n l y to o k p l a c e
a ft e r n u m e r o u s a t t e m p ts b y t h e N D P P t o s e e k
a u d ie n c e w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t w it h o u t s u c c e s s . ”

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T h e a l l e g a ti o n s i n th o s e t w o p a r a g r a p h s a r e t h e y c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 6 .
“ I t m u s t b e r e m e m b e r e d th a t t h e o n l y ti m e th e
President agreed to meet the NDPP was after the
la t t e r h a d l o d g e d a c o u r t a p p li c a t io n i n t e r a li a
in t e r d ic t in g t h e P r e s i d e n t fr o m s u s p e n d in g th e N D P P
b e f o r e t h e Pr e s id e n t p r o v id e d f u r t h e r a n d s u ff ic ie n t
p a r t ic u l a r i ty t o e n a b le th e N D P P t o r e s p o n d o r t o
10

s h o w c a u s e w h y h e s h o u ld n o t b e s u s p e n d e d . ”
Is t h a t a c o r r e c t a ll e g a t io n a n d fa c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is a c o r r e c t a ll e g a t io n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 7 .
“ W e a r e a d v is e d t h a t d u r i n g t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h e
N D P P h a d w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t t h e N D P P m a d e it v e r y
c le a r t h a t h e w i ll o n ly c o n s i d e r s t e p p i n g d o w n f r o m
o ffic e i f h e is fu ll y c o m p e n s a te d fo r t h e r e m a in d e r o f
h is

e n ti r e

c o n tr a c t

as

head

of

the

National

P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y. ”
20

Yo u d i d m a k e t h a t c l e a r ? Yo u h a v e s a i d a l r e a d y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t m a y b e a f in e le g a l p o i n t b u t
y o u r s ta t e m e n t t o t h e P r e s i d e n t s a y in g y e s I w il l s t e p d o w n , w il l v a c a t e
o ffic e , w i ll v o l u n t a r i ly l e a v e o ff ic e i f y o u p a y m e f o r t h e r e s t o f m y
c o n tr a c t. Is t h a t n o t a k in t o a r e s ig n a ti o n i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 8 ) ?

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M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o it is n o t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h y d o y o u s a y t h a t?

And I

u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e m a y b e l e g a l a r g u m e n t a b o u t th is a n d I a m s u r e t h e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t ju d g m e n t c o n s id e r e d t h a t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I a m s u r e t h a t w ill – i f y o u
c o n ti n u e r e a d i n g t h e le t t e r p a r a g r a p h 1 0 t h e r e w il l b e t h e a n s w e r t o
y o u r q u e s ti o n C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t le t u s g o t h e n t o 8 a n d 9 .
Yo u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 8 :
10

“ W e r e i t e r a te o r y o u r a t t o r n e y s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 8
w e r e i te r a t e th a t th e r e i s n o f a c t u a l o r l e g a l b a s i s f o r
o u r c l ie n t to s t e p d o w n fr o m h i s p o s i ti o n . ”
Paragraph 9:
“ I t is o u r c o n s i d e r e d v i e w in th e li g h t o f t h e a b o v e
t h a t th e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e N PA A c t r e a d w i th t h e
p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e P u b lic S e r v ic e A c t w h ic h y o u h a v e
a l lu d e d t o d o n o t a p p ly to t h is p r o p o s e d s e t tl e m e n t. ”
A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 to w h ic h y o u h a v e n o w r e fe r r e d :
“ I n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s o u r c l ie n t w il l o n l y c o n s i d e r t h e

20

o p t io n o f l e a v i n g o ffic e a s t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u ld w a n t
h i m t o i f h e w a s – i s fu ll y c o m p e n s a t e d f o r t h e
r e m a in d e r o f h i s c o n tr a c t . ”
N o w th a t is w h a t w a s s a id a n d i t w a s y o u r v ie w t h a t y o u – t h e
p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e N PA A c t p a r t ic u l a r l y t h e o n e w h ic h w e h a v e j u s t r e a d
d i d n o t a p p l y t o th is .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That was my …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P r o c e s s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That was my view at the

ti m e C h a ir y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B a s e d o n w h a t r e a s o n i n g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE O LIVER NXA SANA:

Based on the reasoning

t h a t m y l e a v in g th e o ffi c e w a s n o t a t m y i n s t a n c e – a t m y r e q u e s t . I t
w a s t h e Pr e s id e n t w h o w a n te d m e to le a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I s e e t h a t e x a c t ly o n th e is s u e o f w h o – w h e t h e r
10

t h e Pr e s id e n t w a n t e d y o u t o le a v e w h i c h I a s k e d y o u a b o u t e a r li e r o n
and you said that indeed he had said that he wanted you to leave.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And you said he had said that even before you

r e c e i v e d t h e le t t e r fr o m h i m s a y in g t h a t – o r t h e l e t te r s a y i n g t h e r e
w o u ld b e a n i n q u ir y i n t o y o u r f it n e s s t o h o ld o ffi c e .

I see that in

p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f th is le t t e r d a t e d 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 fr o m y o u r a tt o r n e y s
t o M r H u ll e y it d o e s s a y
“ A s th e Pr e s i d e n t w o u l d w a n t h i m t o . ”
It says:
20

“ I n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s o u r c l ie n t w il l o n l y c o n s i d e r t h e
o p t io n o f l e a v i n g o ffic e a s t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u ld w a n t
h i m t o i f h e is fu ll y c o m p e n s a t e d . ”
I t s e e m s th a t th is is i n s o m e w a y p la c e d o n r e c o r d t h a t it is t h e
President who wanted you to leave.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u r a t t o r n e y s w e r e p l a c in g o n r e c o r d t h a t y o u

w o u ld o n ly a c c e d e to t h a t w is h o n h is p a r t i f y o u w e r e f u l ly
c o m p e n s a t e d fo r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e p e r i o d o f y o u r c o n tr a c t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

T h a t is s o C h a ir.

And –

C h a ir I c a n e v e n s a y t h a t th is p a r a g r a p h w a s i n s e r te d s p e c i fi c a ll y a t m y
in s is t e n c e b e c a u s e I w a s p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f d r a f ti n g t h is l e t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u – y o u h e lp e d d r a ft s o m e o f th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e

fr o m y o u r a t t o r n e y s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

T h a t is – th a t i s c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e y o u a r e a n a tt o r n e y y o u r s e l f.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A n d th a t is h o w I w a s

tr a i n e d t h a t w h a t e v e r d is c u s s i o n y o u m a y h a v e h a d y o u f o l l o w i t u p w i t h
a w r i t te n c o n f ir m a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

W h i c h is e x a c tl y w h a t w e

did.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I a m s u r e M r P r e to r iu s w i ll s t il l t a k e y o u to a n y
subsequent correspondence.

D i d Mr H u l le y t o w h o m th is l e t te r w a s

a d d r e s s e d d i d h e e v e r s a y s u b s e q u e n t t o t h i s l e t te r n o , n o , n o , w h a t
a r e y o u p e o p l e t a l k i n g a b o u t ? T h e Pr e s id e n t h a s n e v e r w a n te d – s a id

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
h e w a n ts M s N x a s a n a t o l e a v e i t is n o t h i s p o s i t io n t h a t M r – h e w a n t s
M r N x a s a n a t o l e a v e ? D i d th e y d e n y t h is p a r t o f th e l e t t e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a i r t h e le t t e r w a s

a d d r e s s e d to M s B o n is i w e M a k h e n e n o t M r H u ll e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A l r i g h t , o k a y I a m – i t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o th e

P r e s i d e n c y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r t h e a t te n ti o n o f M s B o n is iw e M a k h e n e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M s M a k h e n e w a s a s y o u s a i d le g a l a d v is o r t o t h e
President?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i n t h e Pr e s id e n c y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Ye s .

She responded

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B y w a y o f a le t t e r d a t e d

t h e 1 2 t h D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w h ic h i s A n n e x u r e – p a g e 1 9 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I a m s o r r y M r P r e t o r iu s I r e a l is e t h a t I a m – I a m

ju m p i n g t h e g u n b u t m a y b e w e w i ll d e a l w i t h t h a t a n d t h e n y o u c a n
c o n ti n u e n o w th a t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e r e i s a l e t te r o f 1 2 D e c e m b e r
2014.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u w a n t t o s a y a n y th in g o n i t i n r e g a r d t o
t h is p a r tic u la r p o i n t Mr N x a s a n a ?

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir t h e r e is n o d e n i a l i n
h e r r e s p o n s e e x c e p t t o s a y – t o r e f e r t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e – t o t h is
le t t e r a n d s h e s a y s i t is n o t h e r i n te n ti o n to tr a v e r s e e a c h a n d e v e r y
a l le g a ti o n

or

averment

contained

in

her

correspondence

n o t w i t h s t a n d in g c e r t a in g la r i n g i n a c c u r a c i e s a n d m i s s t a te m e n ts o r f a c t .
T h e n h e s a i d h e r e s e r v e s – s h e r e s e r v e s h e r r i g h t to d o s o i n th e e v e n t
t h a t i t b e c o m e s e i t h e r n e c e s s a r y o r a p p r o p r ia t e b u t s h e d id n o t
v e h e m e n t ly d e n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o – s o s h e – s h e s a i d s h e d id n o t i n t e n d t h i s
10

le t t e r to b e a r e s p o n s e to e a c h a n d e v e r y t h i n g th a t h a d b e e n w r i t te n in
t h e le t t e r o f t h e 1 0 t h D e c e m b e r.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d r e s e r v e d th e r i g h t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To d o s o l a te r b u t p o i n t e d o u t th a t a c c o r d in g t o h e r

t h e r e w e r e g l a r in g i n a c c u r a c ie s …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m is s t a t e m e n t s o f f a c t b u t d i d n o t g o t o s a y w h ic h
ones …
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : S h e d id n o t …
CHAIRPERSON: Those were.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: She - she did not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E x t r a p o l a te t h e m …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And then …
CHAIRPERSON:

And

as

fa r

as

you

know

did

anybody

e i th e r

M s M a k h e n e o r th e Pr e s i d e n t o r Mr H u l le y s u b s e q u e n t ly c o m e b a c k to
t h e i s s u e o f t h is s t a te m e n t th a t y o u s a i d y o u r a tt o r n e y s a i d t h e
President wanted you to leave?

D i d t h e y c o m e b a c k to s a y a c tu a l ly

that is - was not the case?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

It was not the case Chair

e x c e p t f o r th e P r e s i d e n t ’s a ffi d a v i t w h ic h h e f il e d i n t h e H i g h C o u r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e H i g h C o u r t , j a .
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d - a n d s u b s e q u e n tl y i n
t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W h e r e h e m a i n ta i n e d t h a t I
m a d e a r e q u e s t b u t s p e c if ic a l ly d e a l i n g w i t h t h is l e t te r n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e r e h e

s p e c i f ic a l ly d is p u t e d t h e c o n te n ts o f t h is l e tt e r. T h a t is w h y th is l e t te r
e v e n i n t h e - i n t h e H i g h C o u r t a n d in t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t th e
J u d g e s t h e - t h e c o u r t f o u n d t h a t m y v e r s i o n b a s e d o n th is l e t te r …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

W a s th e m o s t p la u s ib l e

one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . T h a n k y o u . I a m s o r r y. I - I i n te r r u p t e d y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n i ts c o n t e x t .

SC:

Just

to

place

th is

Yo u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t y o u h a d

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
d is c u s s io n s w i t h th e Pr e s i d e n t a b o u t y o u r h o l d i n g o ffi c e a s N D P P ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d s o m e o f th e s e d i s c u s s io n s

t a k e p la c e b e f o r e 4 J u ly 2 0 1 4 ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n o t ic e o f th e i n q u ir y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r t h e n o tic e o f t h e i n t e n t io n t o
consider suspension?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e to l d t h e C h a i r t h a t
a t t h e s e m e e ti n g s t h e P r e s i d e n t e x p r e s s e d a v ie w t h a t y o u s h o u l d l e a v e
o ffic e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e a ls o to l d th e C h a ir
that your response was there is no need to do so because there is a
c a m p a i g n a n d i t is b e i n g f e d w i th m is i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t y o u .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?

20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e s u b s e q u e n t e v e n ts s h o w

t h a t d u r in g J u ly t h e P r e s i d e n t a c te d o n w h a t y o u t o ld th e C h a ir h a d
b e e n h is in t i m a ti o n e a r ly in r e g a r d t o th e t e r m i n a t io n o f y o u r s e r v i c e s i n
whatever manner?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . O n t h e - y e s , b y h i s

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
le t t e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Dated 4 July 2014.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s th e r e e v e r a n y o c c a s i o n o n
w h ic h t h e t e r m i n a t io n o f s e r v ic e s o r t h e t e r m i n a t io n o f y o u r h o l d i n g o f
o ffic e w a s a t y o u r i n s t a n c e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o t a t a n y s t a g e C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Did you ever come to the

c o n c l u s i o n t h a t d e s p i t e y o u r a t t e m p ts t o p e r s u a d e t h e Pr e s i d e n t to
10

a b a n d o n t h i s id e a t h a t y o u s h o u l d l e a v e o ffi c e - w h ic h y o u s a y y o u d id .
T h e r e w a s n o p o i n t i n c o n ti n u i n g th a t a v e n u e b e c a u s e h e s e e m e d
u n w il li n g t o c h a n g e h i s m in d . D id y o u e v e r c o m e to t h a t r e a l is a ti o n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

No.

To a b a n d o n t h e id e a

…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t y o u s h o u l d l e a v e o ff ic e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t i s - a t a p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t
I t h e n a g r e e d t o - t o e n te r in t o a s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e y
w e r e n o w w i ll i n g t o p a y m e t h e r e m a in d e r o f m y c o n tr a c t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s b u t a t w h o s e i n s ta n c e w o u l d
20

t h a t te r m in a ti o n h a d b e e n - h a v e b e e n y o u r s o r t h e P r e s i d e n t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

No it was - it was the

P r e s i d e n t ’s i n s t a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t w i ll - th a t - t h a t l e t te r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r t h a t w e

t a lk e d a b o u t a l i tt l e e a r li e r r e fe r r e d t o t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t th a t
c a m e fr o m - ja , p a r a g r a p h 2 .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
“ F o l l o w in g o u r d is c u s s io n s o f t h e 8 t h a n d t h e
s u b s e q u e n t i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e c l i e n t r e g a r d in g
t h e p r o p o s e d s e t t le m e n t … ”
T h e p r o p o s e d s e tt l e m e n t th a t is - th a t t h e - y o u r a t t o r n e y is
t a lk in g a b o u t th e r e d i d i t c o m e t o t h e m i n w r i t te n f o r m ?

Wa s t h e r e a

le t t e r t h a t c a m e f r o m t h e P r e s i d e n c y s a y in g h e r e is o u r s e t tl e m e n t
p r o p o s a l o r is h e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e - t h e d is c u s s io n s a t th e m e e ti n g o f
the 8th?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I m u s t h a v e p e r h a p s
10

m is p l a c e d th a t l e t te r. T h e r e w a s a t th a t m e e t in g M s M a k h e n e p r o d u c e d
a - a d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s a s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a l p r o p o s i n g a s e t t le m e n t
a m o u n t o f a b o u t R 6 m i lli o n a n d s o m e s o r ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I remember we had that -

t h a t le t t e r - t h a t l e tt e r b u t th e p r o b l e m C h a ir is t h a t w h e n - w h e n t h e
m a t t e r w e n t fo r li t ig a ti o n a n d I w a n te d t o r e s p o n d t o a ll t h e s e is s u e s
w h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t s a id th a t I h a d m a d e a r e q u e s t m y fi le s a t m y - a t a t m y a t t o r n e y ’s o ffi c e s h a d d i s a p p e a r e d .

T h a t w a s a s tr a n g e th in g

that happened.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Unfortunately I had rely on
- b e c a u s e I u s e d t o i n s is t t h a t w h a t e v e r t h a t t h e y s e n d o u t t h e y m u s t
send …
C H A I R P E R S O N : G i v e y o u a c o p y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 130 of 192

G iv e m e a c o p y.

Then I

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
h a d p u t th e - th e c o p i e s a s i d e .

I m a n a g e d to r e c o n s tr u c t t h e - t h e

e v i d e n c e . S o t o e n a b le - w h ic h e n a b l e d m e t o r e s p o n d a d e q u a t e ly t o t o t h e P r e s id e n t ’s a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t I m a d e a r e q u e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e M r P r e t o r i u s a s k e d y o u s o m e q u e s t i o n s a n d
y o u a n s w e r e d in r e la t io n to w h e t h e r t h e s e tt l e m e n t w a s i n te r ms o f t h e
N PA A c t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w if t h e r e h a d b e e n a l e t t e r t h a t p r e c e d e d - t h a t

c a m e w i t h t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t I w o u l d h a v e l o v e d t o s e e t h a t
10

b e c a u s e th e r e is t h is is s u e o f w h e th e r o r n o t y o u m a d e a r e q u e s t t o t h e
P r e s i d e n t a n d h e r e in th is l e t te r o f t h e 1 0 t h i t is m a d e q u i t e c l e a r t h a t
as far as you and your attorney are concerned what you are looking at
is n o t s o m e th i n g in t e r m s o f th e N PA A c t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t it - t h e N P - w h a t t h e y m a y h a v e w r i t t e n m a y b e

m i g h t h a v e - if w h a t th e y w e r e lo o k i n g a t w a s in t e r m s o f t h e A c t i t
p r o b a b ly w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 1 2 . 8 w h ic h n e c e s s a r il y
r e q u ir e s a r e q u e s t fr o m y o u r s i d e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f w h a t t h e y h a d s e n t t o y o u o r y o u r a tt o r n e y w a s
a l e t t e r w h ic h c o n t e m p l a te d t h a t th e ir u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e t w o
p a r t i e s w e r e e n g a g e d i n a p r o c e s s th a t r e q u ir e s y o u r r e q u e s t . T h e n t h e
f a c t t h a t i n t h i s le t t e r y o u a n d y o u r a t to r n e y a r e s a y i n g l o o k w h a t w e
a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t i s s o m e th in g t h a t i s n o t i n t e r m s o f t h e A c t .
I t m ig h t m a k e it q u i t e c le a r t h a t y o u d e f i n i t e ly r e j e c te d a n y

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
concept of any - concept of a request that you may have made and it
w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t t o lo o k a t t h e ir r e a c t i o n t o t h a t . Yo u - y o u c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r t h e l e t t e r t h a t m a y h a v e c o m e fr o m t h e m w it h a
s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e i f - i f i t w a s a l e t t e r m a d e a n y r e fe r e n c e t o t h e
request?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir i t - i t d id n o t - i t
d i d n o t t a lk a b o u t th e r e q u e s t .

I - I r e m e m b e r i t v i v i d l y.

It was a

s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a l t h a t I r e l i n q u i s h e d th e - m y p o s i t io n a n d I w o u ld b e
p a i d t h i s - s o m u c h m o n e y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That was it.

Th e n w e

r e j e c t e d i t o u tr i g h t b y t h i s l e tt e r o f t h e 1 0 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

D id i t r e f e r to t h e A c t i ts e l f ?

To - it m i g h t h a v e

r e fe r r e d e x p r e s s ly t o t h e r e q u e s t b u t d i d i t r e f e r to S e c t i o n 1 2 . 8 b y a n y
c h a n c e i f y o u a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I a m - I a m n o t a b l e
to …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

No I am not able

to

remember …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e c o n t e n t s o f th e l e t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is f i n e . T h a n k y o u . M r Pr e to r i u s .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . Th e s i t u a t io n is c l a r if i e d a
li t tl e fu r th e r in t h e n e x t l e t te r o f 1 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a t p a g e 1 - 9 - 2 .
you would go there.
c a l c u l a ti o n s .
purposes.

If

T h e i n t e r v e n i n g l e t te r s a r e ju s t m o n e t a r y

I a m n o t s u r e th a t th o s e a r e r e l e v a n t f o r p r e s e n t
I f w e c o u l d g o t o th a t l e tt e r a d d r e s s e d t o y o u b y

A d v o c a t e B o n is iw e M a k h e n e l e g a l a d v is o r t o t h e P r e s i d e n t t o M a b u n d a
I n c o r p o r a t e d . It r e a d s :
“I

refer

to

your

correspondence

dated

1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a d d r e s s e d t o t h e Pr e s i d e n c y a n d
10

r e s p o n d th e r e to a s fo ll o w s :

one, it is not my

in t e n t io n to tr a v e r s e e a c h a n d e v e r y a l l e g a t io n o r
averment

c o n ta i n e d

in

your

correspondence.

N o t w it h s t a n d in g c e r ta in g l a r i n g i n a c c u r a c ie s a n d
m is s t a t e m e n t s o f f a c t . I r e s e r v e th e r i g h t t o d o s o
in t h e e v e n t t h a t i t b e c o m e s e i th e r n e c e s s a r y o r
appropriate.”
T h e n t h e r e i s a - a n i n t e r e s t in g c o m m e n t w h ic h f o ll o w s :
“ Tw o , w h il s t a n y n e g o t i a t e d s e t t le m e n t p e r t a i n i n g t o
y o u r c l ie n t ’s e m p lo y m e n t a s N D P P o u g h t p r o p e r ly t o
20

b e h a d w i th t h e M in is t e r o f J u s ti c e a n d C o r r e c t io n a l
S e r v ic e s t h e P r e s i d e n t a s s u m e d th is r o l e m i n d f u l a s
h e w a s o f c e r ta i n r e s e r v a t io n s w h ic h h a d b e e n
e x p r e s s e d r e g a r d i n g t h e M i n is te r. ”
T h a t s t a t e m e n t is f a ir ly c l e a r t h a t w h a t is n o w b e i n g s a i d is
t h a t a n e g o t ia t e d s e t t le m e n t i s t h e j o b o f t h e M i n i s te r.

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Correct; but we know that

S e c t io n 1 2 . 8 i s n o t t h e f u n c ti o n o f t h e M i n i s t e r b u t o f t h e P r e s i d e n t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

So

this

seems

to

be

an

a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f t h e f a c t th a t i f t h e r e is to b e a n e g o t ia t e d
s e t tl e m e n t i t s h o u ld n o t b e t h e n i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 . 8 b u t s i m p l y a
n e g o ti a te d s e t tl e m e n t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

T h a t is s o - t h a t w a s m y

v ie w C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t y o u h a d p o i n t e d o u t in
y o u r l e t te r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s o o n t h is b a s i s it a p p e a r s
w h a t is s a id i n p a r a g r a p h 3 o r p e r h a p s I fi r s t s h o u l d g o t o t h e l a s t
paragraph and paragraph 2.
“ N o t w i th s t a n d i n g s u c h i n t e r v e n ti o n t h e P r e s i d e n t i s
n o t a t li b e r ty to d e p a r t fr o m a c c e p t e d p r e s c r i p t s
w h ic h r e g u la t e G o v e r n m e n t c o n d u c t . ”

20

Paragraph 3:
“ W h a t n o w a p p e a r s a p p a r e n t i s t h a t t h e p a r ti e s a r e
in c a p a b le o f r e s o lv in g th e m a t te r a lo n e a n d I m u s t
t h e r e f o r e t o t h is - th e i n i t ia l s u g g e s ti o n o f m a k i n g
u s e o f t h e s e r v ic e s o f a n i n d e p e n d e n t m e d i a t o r in
o r d e r t o fi n d a s e tt l e m e n t t o t h e m a t te r. ”

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
Do you see that?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I s e e i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n a r e q u e s t is m a d e a g a i n .

Then on 15 January …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e fo r e th a t M r Pr e to r i u s i f y o u l o o k a t t h e
la s t s e n te n c e o n p a r a g r a p h 2 M r N x a s a n a …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Of

the

l e t te r

of

12 December 2014

fr o m

A d v o c a t e B o n is iw e M a k h e n e i t s a y s t h a t :
“ … t h e P r e s i d e n t i s n o t a t li b e r ty to d e p a r t fr o m

10

a c c e p te d

prescripts

w h ic h

regulate

Government

conduct.”
Yo u s e e t h a t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I s e e th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i th i n th e c o n te x t i t s e e m s to b e s a y i n g t h a t th e y a r e
taking the view that whatever is done must be in terms of the - of - of
t h e N PA A c t .

W a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s w e ll ?

Is th a t y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h e y a r e s a y in g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

T h a t w a s th e i r a r g u m e n t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e n t h e f o ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h o r th e f o ll o w i n g
t w o o r t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o r t h e f o l lo w in g t w o p a r a g r a p h s th e y th e n t a l k
a b o u t g o in g t o m e d i a ti o n to s e t t le t h e m a t t e r.

D o e s t h e N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty A c t m a k e p r o v i s i o n f o r m e d i a ti o n s i n s u c h a
case?

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e y p r o p o s e d m e d i a ti o n t h e y

t h e m s e l v e s w e r e p r o p o s i n g s o m e th in g t h a t w a s o u ts i d e o f t h e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O u ts i d e o f th e Ac t .
CHAIRPERSON: Of the - of the Act.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l a s t h e C h a ir h a s p o i n t e d

o u t y o u a r e a n a t to r n e y …
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u o b v io u s ly a n d a s y o u

h a v e s a id t o t h e C h a ir w e a r e a w a r e o f a ll t h e r e le v a n t p r o v is i o n s
g o v e r n in g a n y t e r m i n a t i o n o r e n d i n g o f y o u r s e r v ic e s a s N D P P …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u w e r e c a r e f u l to h a v e

r e g a r d t o t h o s e w h e n d r a ft i n g o r a t t e n d in g t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e d r a f t e d
on your behalf?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

P e r h a p s y o u c a n h e l p u s th e n

b e c a u s e p a r a g r a p h 2 a n d p a r a g r a p h 3 s e e m t o b e a l it t l e c o n f u s in g a t a t f ir s t g l a n c e b e c a u s e o n t h e o n e h a n d t h e y a r e s a y i n g a n e g o ti a te d
s e t tl e m e n t m u s t in v o lv e th e M i n i s te r o f J u s ti c e a n d C o r r e c t io n a l
S e r v ic e s a n d n o t t h e P r e s i d e n t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d o n th e o t h e r h a n d t h e y a r e

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
s a y in g t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t c a n o n l y a c t i n t e r m s o f a c c e p te d p r e s c r i p ts
w h a t e v e r th o s e m i g h t b e .

W e k n o w t h a t S e c t io n 1 2 . 8 i n v o lv e s t h e

P r e s i d e n t d i r e c tly. I t i s h e t h a t m u s t e x e r c is e h i s d is c r e t i o n i n t e r m s o f
S e c t io n 1 2 . 8 a t y o u r r e q u e s t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
w i s h in g t o r e s ig n .

Or at the request of the NDPP

N e v e r th e le s s t h e r e is a s t a te m e n t h e r e t h a t a

n e g o ti a te d s e t t le m e n t p e r t a i n i n g t o y o u r e m p l o y m e n t s h o u ld n o t b e a t
t h e h a n d s o f t h e P r e s id e n t b u t a t th e h a n d s o f t h e M in is t e r.
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C a n y o u e x p la in w h a t is g o in g o n
here?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir I u n d e r s t o o d t h i s

p a r a g r a p h t o b e s a y i n g t h a t w h ils t i t w a s t h e r e s p o n s i b il it y o f t h e
M i n is t e r t o d e a l w i th th is - w it h t h e is s u e o f - o f m y is s u e t h e - t h e
P r e s i d e n t a s s u m e d u n t o h i ms e lf to d e a l w i t h t h i s is s u e .

It - it was

c o n fu s i n g t o m e .
I - I must - I must admit but I thought she was just saying that
it w a s t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f th e M i n i s te r t o d e a l w i th t h is n o t t h e
20

P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e M i n i s te r m u s t a f t e r d e a li n g w it h a n y i s s u e s t h e n t h e
M i n is t e r a s t h e M e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r w h o e x e r c is e fi n a l
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f o u r N PA s h o u l d th e n c o m m u n ic a te i t t o th e P r e s i d e n t
a n d th e - f o r t h e p r e s i d e n t to t a k e a d e c i s i o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s b e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t

S e c t io n 1 2 o f t h e N PA A c t y o u m a y r e c a l l s a y s t h a t :

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
“ N o t e r m i n a t i o n o f s e r v ic e m a y ta k e p l a c e o t h e r
t h a n i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e p r e s c r ip ts o f S e c t io n
12.”
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t - t h a t is s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Had you expressed any reservations about the

M i n is t e r t o t h e P r e s i d e n t ?

I a s k t h a t b e c a u s e th e y - t h e y r e fe r t o

s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s . I t s e e m s t h a t w h a t th e y a r e s a y i n g is t h e
P r e s i d e n t w a s a w a r e th a t y o u h a d e x p r e s s e d c e r t a in r e s e r v a t io n s a b o u t
t h e M i n i s t e r o f J u s tic e .
I d o n o t k n o w i n r e g a r d to w h a t b u t y o u h a d e x p r e s s e d c e r t a i n

10

r e s e r v a ti o n s a n d t h a t is w h y h e th e r e fo r e p l a y e d t h is r o l e h i m s e l f w h ic h
t h e y s e e m t o s u g g e s t o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n p l a y e d b y t h e M i n i s te r o f
J u s t ic e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I h a d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir

I

had

v e r b a ll y

e x p r e s s e d m y - m y d i s s a tis f a c ti o n a t t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h th e M in is t e r
20

o f J u s tic e h a n d l e d m y m a t t e r e s p e c ia ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M in is t e r M a s u th a o r … ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Fi r s tl y - f ir s t ly i t w a s

M i n is t e r R a d e b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I a ls o - I a m o n r e c o r d . I

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w r o t e a l e t t e r a n d e x p r e s s e d m y d is c o m f o r t a n d d is s a ti s f a c t io n i n th e
m a n n e r in w h i c h h e - h e t r e a t e d m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B e c a u s e h e is t h e fir s t

p e r s o n w h o to l d m e a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o a d v is e th e
P r e s i d e n t to in s ti t u t e th e …
CHAIRPERSON: An inquiry?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h e i n q u ir y.

What - what

d o e s n o t a p p e a r i n th e s e p a p e r s C h a ir - j u s t b r i e fl y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Is

that

before

M i n is t e r R a d e b e w a s r e m o v e d o r r e s h u ffl e d fr o m th is p o s it i o n o f
M i n is t e r o f J u s tic e h e c a ll e d m e t o a m e e ti n g i n Pr e to r i a i n h is o ffic e .
P r e s e n t th e r e w a s h i m s e l f a n d th e D G t h e n M s S in d a n e a n d a t th a t
m e e ti n g h e th e n c o n fr o n te d m e w i t h a ll t h e s e a l le g a t i o n s o f m y p r e v i o u s
c o n v i c ti o n s , o f m y m a tt e r s t h a t w e r e - t h e c o m p l a i n ts th a t w e r e l a id
a g a in s t m e i n t h e - i n th e K w a Z u lu - N a ta l L a w S o c i e t y a n d t h a t I d i d n o t
d e c l a r e a ll o f th o s e w h ic h w a s n o t c o r r e c t a n d I to l d h i m a t th a t m e e ti n g
t h a t I k n o w th e c a m p a i g n a n d t h a t w a s t h e fi r s t p e r s o n I t o l d t h a t t h e
20

c a m p a i g n - I a m a w a r e o f t h e c a m p a i g n w a g e d b y A d v o c a te s J i b a a n d
M r w e b i a g a in s t m e .
I tr i e d t o e x p l a i n m y s e l f . H e d i s m is s e d m e b y s a y in g th a t th a t
w a s a f i g m e n t o f m y o w n i m a g i n a t io n - i m a g i n a t i o n a n d t h e n h e
s u g g e s t e d t o m e a n d th a t I m u s t r e s i g n b e c a u s e o f a l l o f t h e s e . I - i n
f a c t h i s tr u m p c a r d w a s th a t - b u t n o w y o u d o n o t h a v e t h e s e c u r i t y

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c le a r a n c e c e r t i fic a t e a n d I f o u n d i t o d d b e c a u s e I a m t h e o n e t h a t
a p p li e d fo r th e s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e c e r ti f ic a t e a n d I h a d n o t b e e n t o l d b y
t h e s t a t e s e c u r i ty a g e n ts t h a t m y s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e h a s b e e n d e c l i n e d
a n d w h ic h w a s - w h ic h I s u b s e q u e n t ly le a r n t i t w a s n o t e v e n t h e c a s e
and I refused …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e a n t h a t - th a t i t h a d n o t b e e n d e c li n e d .

Yo u

s a y it n o t t h e c a s e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: It was not the case. It was
n o t t h e c a s e . It h a s n e v e r b e e n - i t w a s n e v e r d e c l in e d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
M i n is t e r R a d e b e to l d m e .

It was not the case.

But

th a t

is

what

T h a t w a s t h e in i ti a l

p u s h . T h e y tr ie d t o p u s h m e t h e n I r e f u s e d a n d t h e n h e s a i d t o m e I
m u s t r e s i g n a n d t h e y a g r e e d w i t h t h e D G S in d a n e .

I told them that I

w a s n o t g o i n g to d o th a t . T h e n h e s a i d t o m e th e n t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t
w i ll h a v e t o a p p o i n t t h e C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y.
T h e n I le f t t h e m e e t in g a n d t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y I a d d r e s s e d th e
le t t e r t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e th e f o l lo w in g d a y a r e y o u a b le to
20

in d i c a t e r o u n d a b o u t w h e n th is w a s ? T h e r e w a s a n e l e c ti o n i n 2 0 1 4 …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I th i n k t h a t m a y b e w h e n h e m i g h t h a v e c e a s e d t o
b e M i n i s te r o f J u s ti c e …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I remember …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n M r M a s u t h a c a m e in .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I remember he was going was it - was it in December or January 2014. December 2013/January
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll h e - h e - I t h i n k h e - h e w a s n o t M in is t e r o f

J u s t ic e a f t e r t h e e l e c ti o n o f 2 0 1 4 .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h h i m w h il e h e w a s

M i n is t e r o f J u s tic e i t c o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n b e f o r e th e e l e c ti o n …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Before the elections.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O r - o r a t le a s t b e f o r e t h e i n a u g u r a t io n o f t h e

P r e s i d e n t b e c a u s e M i n is te r s c o n ti n u e d t o o p e r a te a s M in is t e r s e v e n
a ft e r t h e e l e c t io n a s l o n g a s t h e P r e s id e n t h a s n o t b e e n i n a u g u r a te d
yet.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir I k n o w t h a t h e w a s

c o m i n g fr o m t h e - h e w a s t h e - P a r l ia m e n t w a s s i t t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e e l e c ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d M a y I t h i n k

more or less - 2014.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

2014, but I know that he

w a s c o m in g fr o m C a p e To w n …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And immediately after our

m e e ti n g I t h i n k - i m m e d ia t e l y a f t e r - th e r e a f t e r h e w a s th e n r e m o v e d
fr o m t h a t p o s i ti o n a n d h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : H e w e n t t o t h e P r e s id e n c y.

Page 141 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f h e i s - h is d e p a r tu r e f r o m t h e M in is tr y o f J u s ti c e
w a s b e c a u s e o f - w a s a f t e r th e e l e c ti o n th e n y o u r m e e t in g w i t h h i m
m u s t h a v e b e e n c l o s e t o th e e l e c ti o n o r b e t w e e n th e e le c ti o n a n d th e
in a u g u r a ti o n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir I - I d o - I d o h a v e

t h e - I d o h a v e t h e - t h e d a te a t h o m e b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I - I have the copy of that
…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That I - I wrote to him

c o n fir m i n g w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d o n th a t d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o I t h i n k th e n w h a t c a n h a p p e n is t h a t l a te r
o n y o u c o u l d d o a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t a n d / o r s ta t e m e n t a n d a t ta c h
t h e le t t e r a n d i n d ic a te t h a t y o u a r e a b le t o s a y w h a t d a te t h e m e e ti n g
t o o k p la c e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s , b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t y o u w e r e s a y i n g th a t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f o l lo w in g d a y y o u w r o te a l e tt e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
w h a t - w h a t tr a n s p ir e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 142 of 192

C o n fir m i n g - c o n fir m i n g

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h e p r e v io u s n i g h t, y e s

a n d I d id n o t g e t a n y r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y - t h e g is t o f w h a t y o u s a id i n

y o u r l e tt e r w h a t y o u r e c o r d e d o r w h a t y o u s a i d ? W h a t d id y o u c o n v e y
to him?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I c o n f ir m e d th a t h e - h e

c a l l e d m e t o a m e e ti n g a n d t h a t t h i s is w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u h a v e te s t i fi e d t o m e n o w ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

A s I h a v e t e s t i fi e d a n d I

c a l l e d t h e - th e - I c a ll e d E x c o a n d I e x p l a i n e d t o E x c o w h a t h a d
happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I t is - i t i s m i n u t e d .

It i s

there …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A t N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A n d t h e n I th in k t h e - t h e

c o m m e n t s - t h e - th e r e m a r k s t h a t h e - t h a t s h e m i g h t b e r e f e r r i n g t o
20

h e r e is I - I a ls o m a d e r e m a r k s - v e r b a l r e m a r k s a b o u t M in is t e r M a s u t h a
a t - I t h i n k a t t h e m e e t in g o f t h e 8 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m e e t in g o f 8 D e c e m b e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O f D e c e m b e r.

Page 143 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
w o u ld

u n d e r s ta n d

that

after

I

had

C h a ir I w a s - w h e n - y o u

had

that

i n te r a c t i o n

w i th

M i n is t e r R a d e b e - y o u w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d m y a t ti t u d e . T h e n w h e n i t w a s
a n n o u n c e d t h a t w e - w e w e r e g o i n g - w e w e r e h a v in g a n e w M i n is t e r.
To m e - I s a i d to m e it is a r e li e f .
T h e n I a m h a v in g a n e w M i n is t e r w i t h fr e s h i d e a s a n d h e w i ll
b e a b le t o - n o t t o p la y a ll t h e s e N PA p o li t ic s a s I p e r c e iv e d
M i n is t e r R a d e b e w a s d o i n g b u t s tr a n g e l y M i n is t e r M a s u t h a - I t h e n s a w
10

h i m o n t h e n e w s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e i s s u e - m y i s s u e w i th o u t e v e n h a v in g
h a d t h e d e c e n c y o f m e e t in g m e a n d e v e n f in d i n g o u t fr o m m e o r g e t t in g
m y v e r s i o n o f t h e e v e n ts a n d h e w a s a lr e a d y m a k i n g s t a t e m e n t s a b o u t
m e in t h e m e d i a a n d I t o l d h i m - h i m s e l f a t th e m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d w i th
h i m a t th e - a t t h e h o te l i n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t m e e t i n g y o u h a d w i th h i m ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

W i th - w it h M a s u t h a a n d

r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h M in is t e r M a s u th a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

Masutha.

We

had

a

m e e ti n g - t h e r e w a s a n e v e n i n g m e e ti n g a ls o t h a t I h a d w i th h i m a t t h e
S h e r a to n H o t e l a n d I t o l d h i m t h a t I a m v e r y c o n c e r n e d i n t h e m a n n e r i n
w h ic h h e w a s b e h a v in g b e c a u s e I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n - I to ld h i m t h a t h e
w a s ta k i n g s i d e s b e c a u s e - a n d th e n h e a s s u r e d m e t h a t h e d i d n o t
k n o w e i t h e r J ib a o r m y s e l f.
T h a t is w h a t h e - b u t I th in k i n t h i s l e t te r t h a t is t h e r e m a r k

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t h a t M s B o n is iw e M a k h e n e i s r e f e r r in g to b e c a u s e I s a id I h a d s o m e
r e s e r v a ti o n s

about

the

-

the

i m p a r ti a l i ty

of

the

M i n is t e r

-

M i n is t e r M a s u t h a in - in t h i s w h o l e m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th is is - t h is l e t t e r i s d a te d 1 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 o r
is t h a t t h e - j a 2 0 1 4 …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i t r e s p o n d s t o a l e tt e r t h a t r e c o r d e d w h a t h a d

tr a n s p ir e d a t th e m e e ti n g o f 8 D e c e m b e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m y q u e s ti o n i s p r i o r t o 8 D e c e m b e r - p r i o r t o t h a t
m e e ti n g - h a d y o u c o n v e y e d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t o r a n y b o d y a c ti n g o n th e
P r e s i d e n t y o u r r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t M i n is t e r M a s u t h a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Chair

my

-

C h a ir

my

r e s p o n s e is th a t a t t h e m e e t in g o f 8 D e c e m b e r b e f o r e t h e y r e s p o n d e d
o n th e 1 2 t h I m u s t h a v e c o n v e y e d m y - m y r e s e r v a t i o n s a b o u t
M i n is t e r M a s u t h a a t t h a t m e e t in g o r e v e n b e fo r e t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t - b u t y o u s e e t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d i n t e r a c t e d

with you …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

P r io r t o 8 D e c e m b e r i f I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n

c o r r e c t ly.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M s M a k h e n e is tr y i n g to j u s ti f y w h y th e P r e s i d e n t
p r e f o r m e d f u n c ti o n s t h a t s h e s a y s s h o u ld h a v e b e e n p e r f o r m e d b y t h e
M i n is t e r o f J u s t ic e .

N a m e ly n e g o t ia t in g w i t h y o u a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
p o s i ti o n .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h a t h e m a y h a v e d o n e p r io r t o 8 D e c e m b e r

c a n n o t b e u s e d t o j u s ti fy h i m h a n d li n g t h is m a t t e r h i m s e l f i f h e o n ly g o t
t o k n o w a b o u t y o u r r e s e r v a t io n s o n t h e 8 t h o r a f t e r. S o m y q u e s t io n i s
w h e t h e r y o u h a d c o n v e y e d t o t h e P r e s id e n t o r th r o u g h t o p e o p l e
r e p r e s e n ti n g

him

much

e a r li e r

th a t

you

had

r e s e r v a ti o n s

about

M i n is t e r M a s u t h a .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

Th a t - t h a t is t h e p o s i ti o n

C h a ir. To - t o th e Pr e s i d e n t a n d to M r H u l l e y a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

C h a ir

it

is

10

past

fo u r.

M r N x a s a n a is d u e t o f ly s u b j e c t to w h a t y o u s a y a t fiv e p a s t e ig h t . W e
c o u l d a t te m p t to f i n is h b y 6 o ’ c lo c k w h e n I t h i n k Mr N x a s a n a s h o u ld
le a v e a t t h e la t e s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

B u t I c a n n o t g u a r a n te e w e w i ll

fi n i s h in t h a t t i m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A t t h e r a p i d p a c e a t w h ic h w e

a r e g o i n g . Ev e n t h a t m i g h t n o t - a l t h o u g h w e a r e - o n c e w e fi n is h t h e
ti m e li n e w e w i ll g o q u i t e q u i c k l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e ll w e - w e s a i d - w e c e r t a i n l y c a n g o u p t o

Page 146 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
fi v e .

W h e t h e r w e c a n g o b e y o n d t h a t m a y b e w e c a n d e a l w i th t h a t

c lo s e t o fiv e o r a r o u n d 5 o ’ c l o c k . S o l e t u s - le t u s s e e h o w i t g o e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s s e e h o w f a r w e c a n g e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B y 5 o ’ c l o c k .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s s e e t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n s ? O k a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

O k a y, i t ’s p r o b a b l y n e c e s s a r y

t o p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d b e c a u s e y o u d id m e n ti o n a n is s u e c o n c e r n i n g th e
s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e c e r t i fic a t e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

T h a t is d e a l t w i t h o n p a g e 1 8 9

in t h e le t t e r o f y o u r a t t o r n e y s to t h e P r e s i d e n c y o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

I f I c a n j u s t r e a d p a r a g r a p h s 11

t o 1 3 o n t o t h e r e c o r d a n d y o u c a n c o n fir m w h e t h e r t h a t ’s c o r r e c t o r n o t .
20

“ W e c o n fi r m , [s a y s M r M a b u n d u o n y o u r b e h a l f ] , th a t th e
P r e s i d e n t a d v is e d u s t h a t t h e M i n i s te r o f t h e S t a te S e c u r it y
A g e n c y, t h e M i n i s te r, h a s c o n f ir m e d t h a t h e h a s u p h e l d t h e
N D P P ’s a p p e a l a g a i n s t th e r e fu s a l to g r a n t h i m t h e s e c u r i ty
c le a r a n c e a n d h e h a s a lr e a d y i s s u e d b u t h e i s w a i t in g to h a n d
it o v e r t o t h e N D P P u p o n fi n a l is a t i o n o f t h e s e tt l e m e n t b e tw e e n

Page 147 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t h e p a r ti e s . ”
Paragraph 12:
“ W h il e w e d o a p p r e c i a te a n d w e lc o m e t h e M i n i s te r ’s d e c is io n
t o u p h o l d th e N D P P ’s a p p e a l it is o u r r e s p e c tf u l v ie w t h a t t h e
g r a n t in g o f th e s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e c e r t if i c a t e to t h e N D P P is
a n d / o r s h o u ld n o t b e a c o n d i ti o n f o r a n y p r o p o s e d s e tt l e m e n t . ”
Paragraph 13:
“ W e a r e a c c o r d i n g ly b r in g in g it t o y o u r a t te n ti o n th a t w e a r e
d e s p a tc h i n g a le t t e r t o t h e M i n is t e r t o r e l e a s e t h e s e c u r i ty
c le a r a n c e c e r ti fi c a t e to t h e N D P P. ”

10

N o w I d o n ’ t th i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y to g o i n t o w h e t h e r i t ’s a v a l i d r e a s o n
f o r w i t h h o l d i n g th e c e r ti fi c a t e t h a t t h e r e i s n o s e tt l e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e
p a r t i e s , I t h i n k t h e a n s w e r t o t h a t q u e s t io n i s f a ir l y o b v io u s , b u t a r e t h e
f a c ts h e r e c o r r e c t ?
MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

T h e fa c ts a r e c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A l r ig h t th e n l e t’s g o t h e n to t h e

le t t e r o f t h e 1 2 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w h i c h is th e P r e s i d e n c y ’s r e s p o n s e
t o th e l e tt e r w e h a v e j u s t d e a l t w i t h , th a t’s t h e l e t te r o f th e 1 0 t h o f
20

D e c e m b e r a d d r e s s e d b y y o u r a t t o r n e y s t o t h e P r e s id e n c y.

T h e fir s t

p a r a g r a p h a n d it is s ig n e d b y . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t l e t te r, I r e m e m b e r, I
t h i n k I r e m e m b e r y o u r e a d i n g t h e fi r s t p a r a g r a p h a n d w e h a v e c e r t a i n l y
d e a lt w it h t h e p a r a g r a p h t h a t s a y s i t is n o t m y i n t e n t io n t o t r a v e r s e
e a c h a n d e v e r y a l le g a ti o n , a n d t h e n w e d e a lt w i t h t h e o n e t h a t s a y s

Page 148 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
w h il s t a n y n e g o ti a t e d s e t tl e m e n t p e r t a in in g t o o u r c l ie n t ’s e m p l o y m e n t,
I th in k w e h a v e d e a lt w it h a l l o f i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

M y r e c o l le c t i o n is w e d e a l t w i th

a n o t h e r l e t t e r C h a ir, b u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

No it was this one, but there may be one or other

p o i n t th a t y o u w a n t t o m a k e b u t I th in k w e – y o u r e m e m b e r i n r e g a r d to
p a r a g r a p h – t h e la s t t w o p a r a g r a p h s w e l o o k e d a t th e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f
paragraph 2.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Ye s w e d id .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I want to get to paragraph 3

h o w e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Paragraph 3 reads:

“ W h a t n o w a p p e a r s a p p a r e n t is t h a t t h e p a r ti e s a r e in c a p a b l e
o f r e s o lv in g th e m a t te r a lo n e a n d I m u s t t h e r e f o r e r e v e r t t o t h e
in it i a l s u g g e s ti o n

of making

th e

use

o f s e r v ic e s

of an

in d e p e n d e n t m e d i a t o r. ”
I th in k t h a t’s w h e r e w e l e f t t h e l e t t e r.
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , c o r r e c t.

A n d th e n o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J a n u a r y

y o u r a t t o r n e y o n c e m o r e e n t e r th e fr a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

A n d fir s t ly y o u a c k n o w le d g e

r e c e i p t o f a l e tt e r d a t e d 9 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d r e c e iv e d b y o u r o ff ic e o n

Page 149 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
the 9th of January 2015.

N o w t h a t m a y b e a m is t a k e , it m a y b e

r e fe r r i n g t o th e l e t t e r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r, o r i t m a y b e r e fe r r i n g to a l e t te r
t h a t w e c o u ld n o t f i n d a n d y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d t h a t ’s th e l e tt e r s e tt i n g
o u t a s e t t le m e n t p r o p o s a l , c a n y o u h e l p u s th e r e ?

Do you know of any

le t t e r o f 9 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , a s o p p o s e d t o t h e l e t t e r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r
2014.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I c a n n o t r e c a ll C h a ir.

A l r ig h t , w e ll w e d o n ’ t h a v e a n y

le t t e r o f 9 D e c e m b e r a n d it m a y b e t h a t t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly r e fe r r i n g to
10

y o u r l e t te r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Chair I think there must

h a v e b e e n a l e t t e r o f t h e 9 t h D e c e m b e r b e c a u s e th e l e t t e r t h a t o n th e
1 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r is a l e t te r fr o m o u r s e lv e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n t h e o n e t h a t b r o u g h t t h e

s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a l .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

P e r h a p s C h a ir. I t is t h e

le t t e r t h a t w a s c o m i n g fr o m t h e m .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

A lr ig h t , w e ll p e r h a p s i n t h e

f u ll n e s s o f ti m e w e c a n fi n d t h a t l e t t e r, b u t l e t ’s g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 ;
20

”we

place

on

c o r r e s p o n d in g

record
w i th

Mr

that

we

Michael

have
H u ll e y

been

li a i s i n g

before

you

and
were

in tr o d u c e d to u s a s th e l e g a l a d v is o r t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t . ”
Paragraph 3:
“ A t a ll m a t e r ia l ti m e s Mr H u l l e y h a s a l w a y s r e p r e s e n te d t o u s
w h ic h w e a c c e p t t h a t h e w a s t h e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f t h e

Page 150 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
P r e s i d e n t . I t w a s a t h is i n s t a n c e a n d r e q u e s t th a t t h e f o r m a l
e n g a g e m e n t w h ic h b e a r s r e fe r e n c e w a s i n i ti a t e d . ”
T h e fo r m a l e n g a g e m e n t r e fe r r e d t o t h e r e d o y o u k n o w w h a t it is ?
P e r h a p s a m e d i a ti o n ?
MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I think the formal

e n g a g e m e n ts t h a t w e h a d b e t w e e n t h e e n g a g e m e n ts t h a t w e h a d o n t h e
8 t h , 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r, w h e n M s M c K e n n a w a s a v a i la b l e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right, paragraph 4 reads:

“ W e a r e n o ti n g t h e t o n e o f y o u r l e tt e r w h ic h is s o m e w h a t
10

u n s a v o u r y a n d u n - r e c o n c il i a t o r y.

W e w o u l d li k e t o b r in g to

y o u r a t te n ti o n t h a t o u r c o m m u n ic a ti o n to M r H u l le y d a t e d t h e
3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 is s ti ll o f r e le v a n c e i n th is c a s e a n d
e q u a l ly r e m a i n s o n r e c o r d . W e e n c l o s e h e r e w i th a c o p y o f t h e
s a i d l e t te r r e c e i v e d a n d r e a d b y M r H u l le y f o r th e e a s e o f y o u r
r e fe r e n c e . ”
And then paragraph 5:
“ Yo u w il l n o t e fr o m t h e s a id l e tt e r t h a t o u r c li e n t h a d a l w a y s
b e e n , a n d s ti ll r e m a in s a m e n a b l e t o th e p r o p o s e d m e d i a t i o n .
I t is h o w e v e r a p p o s i t e t h a t y o u a tt e n d to t h e p r o p o s e d t e r ms o f
20

r e fe r e n c e f o r t h e m e d i a ti o n f o r c o n s id e r a ti o n a n d a c c e p t a n c e
b y o u r c l ie n t . ”
W e c a n l e a v e t h e r e s t. P a r a g r a p h 6 o n p a g e 1 9 4 w e m u s t r e c o r d t h a t
o u r c li e n t is a m e n a b l e to a p r o p o s e d i n d e p e n d e n t m e d ia t io n a n d n o t a
c o n fi d e n ti a l o n e y o u s e e m t o b e p r o p o s i n g .
Then paragraph 7:

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
“ W e fu r t h e r w is h t o r e c o r d th a t o u r c l i e n t h a s a t n o s ta g e
in it i a t e d t h e d is c u s s i o n s r e g a r d i n g s e t t l e m e n t p r o p o s a l.

In

t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 2 o f y o u r le t t e r y o u s e e m to b e c r e a ti n g a n
i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e M i n is t e r, a n d n o t t h e P r e s i d e n t , s h o u l d
h a v e b e e n th e o n e l ia is in g w i t h o u r c l i e n t r e g a r d i n g t h e is s u e
in q u e s t io n .
regard.

W e v e n tu r e n o t to e x p r e s s a n o p in io n i n th is

W e a r e e q u a l ly u n a w a r e o f a n y f o r m a l m e e t in g

b e t w e e n th e M i n is t e r a n d o u r c l ie n t .
Tr u s ti n g y o u fi n d t h e a b o v e i n o r d e r. ”
10

T h a t is th e l e t te r y o u s e n t t h e n t o t h e Pr e s id e n c y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .
W h e r e y o u p la c e d y o u r s e l f

c le a r ly o n r e c o r d . N o w t h e r e w a s a s p a c e o f ti m e b e t w e e n t h e 1 0 t h o f
December and the 15th of January 2015.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

I t s e e m s fr o m th e l e tt e r o f 1 5

J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 th a t th e r e w a s s o m e h ia t u s i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n th a t
period.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is s o .

D u r i n g th a t p e r i o d d i d y o u e v e r

m e e t p e r s o n a ll y w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t , o r w e ll l e t m e fir s t a s k , i s t h e r e a n y
o th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o f w h i c h y o u m i g h t b e a w a r e t h a t w o u ld a l te r
w h a t is c l e a r ly s e t o u t i n t h e l e tt e r, y o u r le t t e r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4
a n d 1 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 , d i d th a t e v e r c h a n g e i n th e i n t e r i m p e r io d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Page 152 of 192

N o C h a i r th e r e w a s

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
nothing.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e r e t h e r e a n y m e e ti n g s

b e t w e e n y o u a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t i n t h a t in t e r v e n i n g p e r io d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A l t h o u g h I c a n n o t r e c a ll

b u t I w o u l d s a y – n o I c a n n o t r e c a l l h a v i n g a m e e ti n g w i th h i m , I
cannot.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

In a n y m e e ti n g w it h th e

P r e s i d e n t o r th e Pr e s id e n t’s le g a l a d v is o r a t a n y s t a g e o r e v e n w it h Mr
H u ll e y fo r th a t m a t t e r, d i d y o u e v e r a b a n d o n o r q u a li fy t h e p o s i t io n t h a t
10

y o u w e r e n o t a fi t a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n , o r t h a t y o u w e r e i n d e e d a fi t a n d
p r o p e r p e r s o n t o c o n t in u e h o l d in g o ff ic e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

A t n o s ta g e C h a ir d i d I

a b a n d o n m y v i e w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :
anybody

in

the

P r e s i d e n c y,

th e

D i d y o u e v e r c o m m u n ic a t e to
P r e s id e n t

or

r e p r e s e n ti n g

th e

P r e s i d e n c y t h a t y o u w i s h e d a t y o u r i n s t a n c e t o v a c a te o ffi c e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o C h a ir.

Yo u d i d h o w e v e r s a y t h a t i f y o u

w e r e f u l ly c o m p e n s a t e d f o r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f y o u r te r m o f o ffic e y o u
20

w o u ld le a v e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e th e y

were pushing me to leave and I could see they had taken a decision.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Had you left at whose instance

w o u ld y o u r d e p a r tu r e h a v e b e e n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 153 of 192

Had I left?

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s h a d y o u – w e l l y o u d id

le a v e e v e n t u a ll y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s I d i d .

B u t a t t h e s t a g e i n D e c e m b e r,

b e c a u s e w e ’r e g o i n g to d e a l w i th w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r w a r d s n o w.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

I w o u l d h a v e le f t a t t h e

in s t a n c e o f th e P r e s i d e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is g o in g t o b e i m p o r t a n t th a t y o u tr y a n d r e m e m b e r
10

w h e t h e r i n D e c e m b e r o r J a n u a r y y o u d i d h a v e a m e e t i n g p e r s o n a lly
w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t , b e c a u s e i n t h e c o r r u p t io n .. . [ in d i s ti n c t ] m a t t e r I
t h i n k t h e r e i s a n a ffi d a v i t i n h is a n s w e r a ff id a v it o r o n e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t s
b y t h e Pr e s i d e n t , h e s a y s i t w a s b e t w e e n t h e e n d o f D e c e m b e r a n d t h e
b e g in n i n g o f 2 0 1 5 , h e s a y s b e t w e e n th e e n d o f D e c e m b e r a n d t h e
b e g in n i n g o f 2 0 1 5 t h e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s a n d h e s a y s i t w a s d u r in g
m a y b e o n e o f th o s e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t y o u m a d e t h e r e q u e s t .

Now we

k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g w h ic h i n v o lv e d b o t h o f y o u a n d o t h e r
p e o p l e o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , a n d w e k n o w th a t o n t h e 1 0 t h o f
D e c e m b e r y o u r a t t o r n e y s w r o t e a l e t t e r w h ic h y o u d r a f t e d y o u r s e l f to
20

r e c o r d w h a t h a d b e e n d i s c u s s e d a t th e m e e ti n g o f t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: We know that Ms Mokene wrote a letter on the 12th of
D e c e m b e r r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e l e t te r o f t h e 1 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r i f I r e c a l l
c o r r e c t ly, b u t w e – a n d I t h in k t h e n t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r le t t e r i f I a m n o t
m is t a k e n fr o m y o u r a t t o r n e y s , o r m a y b e y o u r a t to r n e y s t h e n w r o t e i n

Page 154 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
J a n u a r y, n o w s o th e r e fo r e i t s e e m s t h a t t h e r e q u e s t t h a t th e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t s a y s y o u m a d e t o h i m i f e v e r i t w a s m a d e w a s m a d e b e tw e e n
t h e e n d o f D e c e m b e r a n d th e b e g in n i n g o f J a n u a r y, s o it w ill b e
i m p o r t a n t f o r y o u t o r e m e m b e r, n o t n e c e s s a r il y n o w i f y o u c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r, i f t h e r e a r e o t h e r d o c u m e n ts t h a t m i g h t a s s is t a t h o m e t o
r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u d id h a v e s u c h a m e e ti n g t o b e a b l e t o p r e p a r e a
s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t t h a t d e a l s w i t h w h e th e r y o u h a d a n y m e e ti n g o r
t e l e p h o n e d i s c u s s io n o r a n y d i s c u s s io n a t a l l w i th h i m d u r in g th a t ti m e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir t h a t t h e

. . .[ i n d is ti n c t – mi c r o p h o n e o ff ] is n o w i n t h e b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t is in t h e b u n d l e , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t is n o w in t h e b u n d l e a n d M r

Nxasana has been given a copy to consider and I had intended to ask
him about it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.

S o y o u – if y o u w a n t t o r e s p o n d t o

w h a t I h a v e ju s t s a i d y o u m a y d o s o , i f y o u w a n t to g o a n d c h e c k
c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts a n d tr y a n d r e m e m b e r t h a t ’s fi n e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir I w a s g o in g t o

r e s p o n d i n t h is w a y, m y r e s p o n s e i s i n a s m u c h a s I w o u l d n o t – I
20

c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e t h e r w e h a d a n y in t e r a c t io n , b e i t a m e e ti n g o r
t e l e p h o n e d i s c u s s io n o r o t h e r w i s e b u t t h e f a c t I t h i n k w h a t M r Pr e t o r i u s
w a n ts to k n o w i s t h a t d id I a t a n y s ta g e m a k e a r e q u e s t a n d my a n s w e r
is a b i g n o , I n e v e r m a d e a r e q u e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l n o I u n d e r s t a n d th a t , b u t y o u s e e if i n d e e d th e r e
w a s a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t d u r i n g t h a t

Page 155 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
ti m e t h a t m ig h t g i v e a c e r t a i n f l a v o u r m a y b e to th e is s u e b u t i f t h e
p o s i ti o n is th e r e w a s n o m e e t in g a t a ll , o r a n y d i s c u s s io n a t a ll i t m ig h t
g iv e a d i ff e r e n t fl a v o u r, y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I m e a n , s o y o u m ig h t s a y
y e s w h a t e v e r m e e ti n g I h a d w i t h h i m if I d i d h a v e a m e e t in g w h a t I d o
k n o w is t h a t I n e v e r m a d e s u c h a r e q u e s t , t h a t is f i n e , b u t h e s a y s
t h e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s d u r i n g t h a t t i m e a n d i f t h e p o s it i o n is t h e r e w e r e
n o d i s c u s s i o n s t h a t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t a s w e ll , y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a l r i g h t , th a n k y o u .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Of course the possible

s c e n a r i o t h a t th e r e w a s s u c h a m e e ti n g a t w h ic h r e s i g n a ti o n w a s
r e q u e s t e d i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 8 2 w o u l d b e g th e q u e s t io n o f w h y
n e g o ti a ti o n s f e l l t h r o u g h a t t h a t s ta g e , b u t t h a t ’s a m a t t e r t h a t w e c a n
d e a l w i th in s u b m is s i o n s C h a ir, b u t i f w e m a y t h e n g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2
a n d 3 o f p a g e 1 9 5 w h ic h i s a l e t t e r o f t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y Mr P r e to r i u s I w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e th i n g a t

p a r a g r a p h o n e , a t p a g e 1 9 4 , M r N x a s a n a I s e e t h a t i n th is l e t te r o f 1 5
J a n u a r y, p a r a g r a p h s e v e n t h e r e o f s a y s w e f u r t h e r w is h to r e c o r d th a t
20

o u r c li e n t h a s a t n o s t a g e i n i t ia t e d th e d is c u s s io n s r e g a r d i n g s e t tl e m e n t
proposals.

T h is s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h e s e t tl e m e n t p r o p o s a ls o r

s e t tl e m e n t n e g o ti a ti o n s t h a t w e r e t a k i n g p l a c e w e r e in i ti a te d b y t h e
P r e s i d e n c y a n d n o t b y y o u r s e l f , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u n e v e r in i ti a te d a n y n e g o t ia t io n s ?

Page 156 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

I n e v e r i n it i a t e d a n y

n e g o ti a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

A n d a s fa r a s y o u k n o w t h is

w a s n e v e r d e n i e d in a n y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t t h e y w e r e th e o n e s w h o
in it i a t e d , o r t h a t y o u n e v e r in i ti a te d th e s e t tl e m e n t d is c u s s i o n s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

N o b e c a u s e i n t h e l e tt e r

o f t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y, t h e n e x t p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

A d v o c a t e . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ]

d o e s n o t e v e n r e fe r, s h e d o e s n o t d is p u te t h a t , s a v e to s a y th a t t h e r e
h a s b e e n in s u ff ic ie n t p r o g r e s s in r e s o lv i n g th e m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And paragraph 2 is very

important because it talks about there has been – she says it appears
a p p a r e n t t h a t i n s u ffi c i e n t p r o g r e s s h a s b e e n m a d e in r e s p e c t o f
r e s o l v i n g y o u r c li e n t ’s c u r r e n t s ta t u s a s N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic
P r o s e c u t io n s .

T h a t is w h y I w a s s a y i n g t h e d i s c u s s io n s w e r e a r o u n d

e v e r y t h i n g a b o u t – n o t j u s t a b o u t th e s e tt le m e n t p r o p o s a ls i n te r m s o f
t h e m o n e y, i t w a s a b o u t e v e r y t h i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
your

c l ie n t ’s

P r o s e c u t io n s ” ?

Ye s .

W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t p a r t t o b e “r e s o lv i n g
current

s ta t u s

as

N a ti o n a l

D ir e c to r

of

P u b l ic

W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e m t o b e ta lk in g a b o u t i n

regard to that?

Page 157 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I understood it to mean

t h a t t h e r e w a s i n s u ffi c i e n t p r o g r e s s in r e s o lv i n g t h e m a t t e r w h e t h e r o r
n o t I r e m a i n i n o ffic e o r t h a t I a m le a v i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

L e t ’s d e a l w i t h p a r a g r a p h s –

m y a p o l o g i e s – l e t’s d e a l w i t h p a r a g r a p h s 2 a n d 3 o f t h e l e t te r, i t s a y s ,
w e ll a n d p a r a g r a p h 1 i n fa c t, p a r a g r a p h 1 r e a d s :
“ I [ a n d th a t ’s t h e le g a l a d v is o r t o t h e P r e s id e n t ] r e fe r t o y o u r
r e c e n t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n r e s p e c t o f th is m a t te r a n d r e s e r v e
o u r r i g h t s t o d e a l w i t h c e r t a i n a s p e c ts c o n t a i n e d t h e r e in . ”

10

N o t a b ly t h e r e ’s n o r e fe r e n c e t o a n y m e e ti n g t h a t h a s t a k e n p l a c e in t h is
period.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

L e t a l o n e a m e e ti n g a t w h i c h

y o u r e q u e s t t o r e s ig n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Paragraph 2 reads:

“ I t a p p e a r s a p p a r e n t t h a t i n s u ffic i e n t p r o g r e s s h a s b e e n m a d e
in r e s p e c t o f r e s o lv i n g y o u r c li e n t ’s c u r r e n t s t a t u s a s N a ti o n a l
20

D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s . ”
Yo u h a v e a n s w e r e d th e C h a i r ’s q u e s t io n i n th a t r e g a r d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

Paragraph 3:

“ I m u s t a c c o r d i n g ly a d v is e th a t a f te r c o n s i d e r a t io n o f t h e
m a t t e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a h a s ta k e n a d e c is io n t o p r o c e e d w i th

Page 158 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t h e in q u ir y i n t o M r N x a s a n a ’s f i tn e s s t o h o l d o ff ic e . ”
A n d t h e n o v e r t h e p a g e o n th e 2 6 t h o f J a n u a r y y o u r a tt o r n e y s a d d r e s s a
le t t e r t o th e P r e s i d e n c y s a y i n g :
“ W e n o t e th e Pr e s id e n t’s i n t e n ti o n t o p r o c e e d w i t h t h e in q u ir y
in t o o u r c l i e n t ’s fi t n e s s t o h o ld o ffic e . K i n d ly a d v is e u s w h e n
w e c a n e x p e c t t o r e c e i v e th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e fo r th e
in q u ir y. ”
I f w e c a n th e n g o b a c k , th a t ’s p r e tt y s e l f- e x p l a n a t o r y, is t h e r e a n y
c o m m e n t t h a t y o u w is h t o m a k e ?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

I t h i n k i t e x p l a i n s th e –

t h is e x c h a n g e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e x p l a i n s , i t fa ir ly e x p l a in s t h a t t h e r e
w a s n o p r o g r e s s r e a c h e d a n d m y a t t i tu d e a n d th e a t t it u d e w a s t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n c y t h e n d e c i d e d t o p r o c e e d w i th t h e i n q u ir y a n d I s a i d b r i n g it
o n . T h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t I s a i d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Perhaps had there been a

r e q u e s t f o r y o u t o r e s ig n m a d e d ir e c tl y t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t i n t e r m s o f
S e c t io n 1 2 ( 8 ) o f t h e N PA A c t, a n d th e o n ly q u e s ti o n t h e n r e m a in i n g w a s
t h e f in a n c ia l c o n s e q u e n c e s o f th e P r e s i d e n t a c c e p t in g y o u r r e q u e s t to
r e s ig n , w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n p r o g r e s s i n t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d
20

in – p r o g r e s s in t h e s e n s e o f g e t ti n g c l o s e r t o fi n a l is a ti o n , n o t p r o g r e s s
in r e s p e c t o f b e i n g s a ti s fa c t o r y t o y o u ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

S u r e ly i f I h a d m a d e a

r e q u e s t C h a ir in f a c t i f I h a d m a d e a r e q u e s t t o r e s ig n it d o e s n o t m a k e
a n y s e n s e th a t I w i ll m a k e a r e q u e s t t o r e s ig n a n d a t th e s a m e ti m e
e x p e c t to b e p a i d th e f u l l a m o u n t o f t h e c o n tr a c t .

Page 159 of 192

I mean it does not

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t a k e a r o c k e t s c i e n tis t t h a t i t is n o n s e n s ic a l , i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e a t
a l l.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u h a v e m a d e t h a t p o i n t y e s .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Is th e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k in g t h is t h a t i f y o u y o u r s e l f

m a d e t h e d e c is i o n t h a t y o u w a n t t o r e q u e s t t h e P r e s id e n t t o a l lo w y o u
to leave and then it would be – it would not be expected that you
h a v i n g d e c i d e d th a t y o u w a n t to b e a ll o w e d t o l e a v e th a t y o u w o u l d
t h e n w a n t t o b e p a id fo r t h e f u l l r e m a i n d e r o f t h e f u l l c o n tr a c t , t h e f u l l
10

r e m a in in g p e r i o d o f y o u r c o n t r a c t . W h a t is c o n s i s te n t w i t h t h a t d e m a n d
t h a t y o u p a i d f o r t h e fu ll r e m a i n i n g p e r i o d o f y o u r c o n tr a c t i s i f t h e
o th e r s id e w a n t e d y o u to le a v e a g a i n s t y o u r w i ll . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A g a in s t m y w i ll .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u s a y . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Pay me.

S i n c e I a m n o t t h e o n e w h o w a n t s to l e a v e , y o u a r e

t h e o n e s w h o w a n t m e to l e a v e t h e n p a y m e , b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n
p r e p a r e d t o s t a y o n u p t o t h e e n d o f m y p e r io d o f c o n tr a c t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

T h a t is th e p o s i ti o n C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p o in t y o u a r e m a k in g is t h a t th e f a c t t h a t t h e y
a c c e d e d t o th a t y o u a r e s a y i n g m e a n s th a t o r s h o w s th a t t h e y – i t w a s
t h e o th e r s i d e t h a t w a n t e d y o u to le a v e a n d n o t y o u ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t is s o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e p o in t y o u a r e m a k i n g .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Page 160 of 192

T h a t is th e p o in t I a m

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
m a k i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

If we could go back Mr

N x a s a n a t o t h e t i m e li n e , w e h a v e d e a l t w it h a l l th e it e m s u p to i t e m 1 4 ,
t h e f u r t h e r i t e m s a r e d e a l t w it h i n y o u r e v id e n c e a n d w e w i ll d e a l w i t h
t h e b r ie f ly b u t i t a p p e a r s t h a t o n t h e 5 t h o f Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 y o u w e r e
in f o r m e d t h a t A d v o c a te C a s s ie m , a s s is t e d b y A d v o c a te N k o s i T h o m a s
a n d S K D M a d l a la w o u ld c h a i r t h e i n q u ir y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M d l a d l a n o t M a d l a l a Mr P r e t o r iu s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

What should it be?

CHAIRPERSON: Mdladla not Madlala.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O h M d la d l a .

T h e n it e m 1 6 is a

r e fe r e n c e t o a p u b lic a ti o n in t h e G o v e r n m e n t G a z e t te o f t h e te r ms o f
r e fe r e n c e in t h e i n q u ir y a n d th e n i t e m 1 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 t h e N PA w o r k s h o p
a t E m p e r o r s P a l a c e a t w h i c h y o u w e r e a p p a r e n tl y to l d b y t h e M i n is t e r
t h a t th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t w o u l d a t t e n d t o y o u r a d v i c e o r r e q u e s ts i n
r e l a ti o n t o A d v o c a te s J i b a a n d o t h e r s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u t h e n fi le d s u b m is s io n s o r

s o r r y s u b m i s s i o n s o n b e h a l f o f t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d t h e M i n is te r w e r e f il e d
o n t h e 4 t h o f M a y, y o u a ls o fil e d s u b m i s s i o n s d i d y o u ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I d id n o t f il e s u b m is s io n s

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O r y o u p r e p a r e d s u b mi s s io n s .

Page 161 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR

MXOLISI

SANDILE

OLIVER

NXA SANA:

I

prepared

the

s u b m is s io n s b u t b e f o r e fi li n g t h e m t h e n w e r e a c h e d s e t t le m e n t a n d I
d i d n o t , I e n d e d u p n o t fi li n g t h e m .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d t h a t s e tt l e m e n t w a s

c o n c l u d e d i n M a y 2 0 1 5 , s ig n e d b y y o u r s e l f o n t h e 9 t h o f M a y a n d s i g n e d
b y th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t o n th e 1 4 t h o f M a y t o g e th e r w i t h th e M i n is t e r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

I think signed by the

M i n is t e r o n b e h a l f o f th e Pr e s id e n t o n t h e 1 4 t h o f M a y if I a m n o t
m is t a k e n .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Is t h a t h o w i t o c c u r r e d ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If I a m n o t m is t a k e n y e s .

A lr ig h t , w e ll w e c a n h a v e a

lo o k a t t h a t, w e d o n ’ t h a v e t h e s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t a t ta c h e d , b u t is
t h e r e a n y t h i n g s ig n i f ic a n t i n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w a s
s ig n e d b y y o u fir s t a n d o n ly la t e r o n b e h a lf o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir

b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t I s ig n e d i t a t
U m h l a n g a , it is d a te d a t U m h l a n g a in D u r b a n , a t t h e o ff ic e s o f Mr
H u ll e y.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I see, who prepared the

document?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

I suppose it was Mr

H u ll e y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

But not you?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 162 of 192

Not me.

In fact just to

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c la r i fy t h e r e w a s th e – h e s e n t m e I t h i n k i t a ls o i t is th e r e i n t h e b u n d le
o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t c a m e u p b e f o r e th e C o n c o u r t , I t h i n k t h e n t h e H i g h
C o u r t a n d t h e C o n c o u r t th a t h e i n i t ia ll y s e n t m e a p r o p o s e d s e t t le m e n t
o f a c e r ta in a m o u n t o f m o n e y a n d t h e n I r e j e c t e d i t , t h e n h e s e n t m e
a n o t h e r s e t tl e m e n t w i th o u t a n y a m o u n t a n d h e a s k e d m e t o i n s e r t t h e
amount.

T h e n I c a l c u l a t e d t h e s a l a r y th a t I w a s e a r n i n g a t t h e ti m e ,

a n d m u lt i p l ie d i t b y th e n u m b e r o f m o n t h s t h a t w e r e r e m a i n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r Pr e to r i u s I t h i n k th a t w e – I w il l b e a g r e e a b l e t o

g o i n g b e y o n d f iv e o ’ c l o c k if – i n o r d e r t o t r y a n d h e lp u s t o fi n i s h b u t I
10

t h i n k w e m u s t t h e n t a k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t n o w, b e c a u s e I h a d a m e e ti n g
p l a n n e d f o r f iv e o ’c l o c k a n d I n e e d to c h a n g e th a t , b u t i n a n y e v e n t i t
m i g h t b e g o o d to h a v e a b r e a k n o w.
Is th a t fi n e , s o i n o t h e r w o r d s fr o m m y s id e y o u m e n ti o n e d s ix
o ’c l o c k , w e c o u ld g o u p t o s ix o ’c lo c k if w e d o n ’ t fi n is h b e f o r e t h a t fr o m
m y s id e . Yo u a r e f in e w i t h t h a t ? H o w lo n g d o y o u t h i n k w e m ig h t s t il l
be?

O r m a y b e y o u m u s t t e ll m e t h a t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k f r o m t h e

break.

M r N x a s a n a . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e m a y fi n i s h b e c a u s e t h e r e

a r e s e c ti o n s t h a t w e c a n s u m m a r is e a n d w e h a v e d e a l t a lr e a d y w i th t h e
20

c o n te n ts o f t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t ju d g m e n t a n d th e c o n fir m a t io n b y
Mr Nxasana of what was said there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t is f in e , b u t w e w il l t a k e a b r e a k n o w a n d
w h e n I c o m e b a c k w e c o n t in u e .

O b v i o u s l y i f w e fi n i s h b e f o r e s ix

o ’c l o c k a l l t h e b e t te r. I t a k e i t t h a t i s f i n e w i t h y o u M r N x a s a n a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 163 of 192

It is fi n e w it h m e C h a ir.

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y, le t ’s t a k e a te n m i n u t e b r e a k , w e w i ll

r e s u m e a t t e n t o fiv e , o r s h o u l d w e t a k e f i f t e e n m in u t e s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n y o u r h a n d s C h a ir, p e r h a p s

fi f t e e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , m a y b e fi f t e e n , o k a y, w e w ill r e s u m e a t f iv e to fi v e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

M y a p o lo g ie s C h a ir.

Yo u h a v e

t o l d th e C h a ir th a t b y l e t t e r d a t e d f o r J u ly 2 0 1 4 y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d th a t
a d e c is i o n h a d b e e n t a k e n t o i n s t it u t e a n i n q u ir y i n to y o u r f i tn e s s to
h o l d o ff ic e . C o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Yo u a ls o t o l d th e C h a ir t h a t y o u
20

r e c e i v e d a n o t ic e th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s c o n s i d e r i n g s u s p e n d i n g y o u o n
f u ll p a y a n d th a t w a s o n t h e 3 0 J u l y 2 0 1 4 ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u t o o k c e r t a i n s te p s i n r e g a r d
t o t h e s u s p e n s io n i s s u e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 164 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e u p s h o t o f it a l l w a s t h a t y o u
were never suspended?
MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

I was never suspended

that is correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

In p a r a g r a p h 5 0 a n d fo ll o w i n g

y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r r ig h ts t o a f a ir h e a r in g a n d y o u r s t a te m e n t in
p a r a g r a p h s 5 2 , 5 3 a n d 5 4 f o c u s o n t h e p o i n t th a t r e a l ly y o u r r i g h ts t o a
f a ir h e a r i n g w e r e p r e ju d ic e d b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n o t g i v e n s u ff ic ie n t
p a r t ic u l a r s o f w h a t t h is i n q u ir y w a s to b e a b o u t ?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
paragraph

52

that

you

were

not

So for example you say in
g iv e n

p a r tic u la r s

of

c r i m in a l

c o n v i c ti o n s . Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 5 3 y o u w e r e n o t g iv e n d e ta il s o f t h e
a l le g e d c o m m e n ts i n t h e m e d i a w h ic h w e r e d iv is iv e a n d h a d th e e ff e c t
o f b r in g in g th e N PA in t o d is r e p u t e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u w e r e n o t g i v e n d e t a ils
o f th e a ll e g e d p r o s e c u ti o n w h ic h y o u h a d f a il e d t o d i s c l o s e a t t h e t i m e
of your employment, correct?
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u r v i e w w a s a s p l a c e d o n
r e c o r d i n p a r a g r a p h 5 5 th a t i t w a s n o t f o r y o u to s p e c u la t e a b o u t t h e s e
m a t t e r s d e t a i ls s h o u l d b e p r o v i d e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u – y o u t o o k a c ti o n i n

Page 165 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
t e r m s o f th e s e c o n t e n ti o n s o f y o u r s , c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l n o t fo r m a l a c t i o n y o u – y o u
c o m m u n ic a te d th e s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t g iv e n c l a r i t y w it h r e g a r d
t o t h e m e d i a c o m m e n t s to w h ic h r e fe r e n c e w a s m a d e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d id r e a d s o m e w h e r e I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r – I
10

t h i n k i t w a s a le t t e r th a t y o u d i d s e n d t o th e Pr e s id e n c y w h ic h w o u ld b e
m a y b e in t h e r e c o r d r e la t in g t o t h e C o r r u p ti o n Wa t c h M a t t e r o r C A S A C
M a t t e r w h e r e a t s o m e s ta g e y o u s a y i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly a l t h o u g h y o u
s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t m e d i a t h e Pr e s i d e n t m a y h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g
t o y o u s a y b u t w h a t w a s s a i d w a s a c c u r a te – w a s c o r r e c t.

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u s a i d i t is e i t h e r i n a le t t e r o r i n a n a ff id a v i t
is w h e r e y o u w e r e s a y i n g e ff e c ti v e ly I h a v e n o t s e e n m a y b e t h e
n e w s p a p e r if i t w a s a n e w s p a p e r w h e r e I a m a ll e g e d to h a v e s a id –
m a d e th o s e r e m a r k s o r w h a t e v e r t h e s o u r c e o r t h e m e d i a w a s . B u t y o u
s a y b u t t h a t is a c tu a l ly c o r r e c t . D o e s t h a t r in g a b e l l a t a l l?
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

It does not ring a bell

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: It does not.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Ja but Chair I – I know

t h a t w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d is i n t h is – i n t h e le t t e r th a t I s e n t t o th e
P r e s i d e n t o r in t h is a ffi d a v i t I s a id t h a t I e n d e d u p s p e c u la t in g b e c a u s e

Page 166 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
I w a s r e q u ir e d t o – t o r e s p o n d .

B u t to b e p r e c is e – to s a y p r e c i s e ly

t h a t th is is t h e m e d i a c o m m e n t t h a t I m a d e w h ic h th e Pr e s id e n t is
r e fe r r i n g t o a s th e m e d i a c o m m e n t t h a t is d iv is iv e a n d b r i n g s t h e N PA
in t o d is r e p u t e I e x p e c t e d t h e P r e s i d e n t t o t e ll m e w h ic h o f th e m e d i a
r e p o r t s h e w a s r e f e r r in g to .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Pr e t o r i u s is th e l e t t e r t h a t Mr N x a s a n a o r h is

a tt o r n e y s I th i n k r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t h a t h e m a d e is it h e r e b e c a u s e i t
m i g h t b e t h e o n e w h e r e m y r e c o ll e c t io n s o r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t l e a s t i s
t h a t h e w a s s a y in g i n e ffe c t w h a t is a ll e g e d is c o r r e c t . I m ig h t n o t k n o w
10

w h e t h e r t h i s w a s in t h i s o r t h a t m e d i a b u t i t is tr u e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t is a n n e x e d a s M N 5 is th e
d r a f t s u b m i s s i o n s m a d e b y th e N D P P t o t h e C a s s i m I n q u ir y a n d a
n u m b e r o f t h e s e m a t t e r s a r e d e a l t w i t h i n t h o s e s u b m i s s i o n s . B u t th e
le t t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o th is w o u ld b e …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t t h e l e tt e r a s I u n d e r s t a n d it
is n o t . .
CHAIRPERSON: It would have been…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

20

I n o th e r w o r d s t h e r e s p o n s e t o

t h e l e t t e r a t p a g e 4 8 t h e l e t te r o f 3 0 J u ly 2 0 1 4 is n o t i n c l u d e d i n th e
bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Not included?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t is – i t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e c o u l d a tt e m p t t o o b t a i n i t o f

Page 167 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
course.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

t h in k

you

were

–

Mr

Nxasana

making

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e Pr e s id e n t a s t o w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t b e

suspended.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k – I th i n k th e – I th i n k t h a t t h a t is t h e le t t e r

b e c a u s e i n r e g a r d to t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e i n q u i r y y o u w e r e n o t
10

a s k e d t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w h e t h e r t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n i n q u ir y o r
not. But in regard to whether you should or should not be suspended
y o u w e r e a s k e d t o m a k e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

I

think

in

response

you

then

asked

for

p a r t ic u l a r s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n – b u t y o u – y o u w e r e n o t g iv e n p a r t ic u l a r s a n d I
cannot

remember

whether

you

responded

when

you

made

your

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e t h e r y o u h a d a l r e a d y b e e n t o ld t h a t
20

y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e g i v e n p a r t ic u l a r s o r w h e t h e r b e c a u s e th e r e
s e e m e d t o b e n o r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t t o y o u a s k i n g f o r m o r e
ti m e o r w h a te v e r y o u t h e n d e c i d e d t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n y w a y.
B u t I th i n k it is in y o u r r e p r e s e n ta t io n s o n w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t b e
s u s p e n d e d w h e r e I s a w w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t. S o i f w e d o n o t h a v e
t h o s e h e r e t h e n – b u t I t h in k t h e r e is s o m e w h e r e w h e r e o n m y r e a d i n g

Page 168 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
y o u s e e m t o s a y w h a t i s a l le g e d is t r u e . B u t y o u w e r e q u e r y in g I t h i n k
m a y b e th e m e d i a w h e r e i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n r e p o r t e d .

Yo u c a n n o t

remember?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t i n t h e s a m e s p ir i t h e r e
I t h in k t h e p o i n t I w a s m a k i n g h e r e is t h a t t h a t d id n o t ta k e a w a y t h e
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e P r e s i d e n t t o g i v e m e p a r t ic u l a r s o f w h a t h e w a s
a l le g in g .
10

I m a y h a v e m a d e m e n ti o n o f m e d i a r e p o r ts s p e c u l a t i n g b u t

p r e c i s e ly w h ic h m e d i a c o m m e n t th a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g to it r e m a i n e d a –
h e w a s e x p e c t e d t o t e l l m e w h i c h o n e w a s it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h i n k …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

[ In d is ti n c t ] c o n s i d e r e d

d iv is iv e a n d b r i n g t h e N PA i n t o d is r e p u te .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k y o u m a y w is h a s I i n d ic a te d e a r li e r o n a ft e r

t o d a y t o j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e r e c o r d o f th a t C A S A C a n d – a n d C o r r u p t io n
Wa t c h .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C o r r u p ti o n W a tc h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a t t e r b e c a u s e t h e r e is a lo t o f m a t e r i a l t h e r e . Yo u
20

k n o w a n d y o u w e r e n o t – y o u – y o u r p a r t i c ip a ti o n i n t h o s e p r o c e e d i n g s
w a s l i m it e d .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O t h e r p a r t ie s p a r ti c i p a t e d v e r y fu ll y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : [ In d i s ti n c t ] [ m u m b l in g ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – a n d t h e y a t ta c h e d t o t h e ir a ffi d a v i ts s o m e o f th e

Page 169 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t t h e p a r t i e s e x c h a n g e d a n d a t a c e r ta in s t a g e t h e
P r e s i d e n c y s u b m i t t e d t o th e c o u r t th e r e c o r d o f t h e d e c i s i o n s th a t
s o u g h t – w a s s o u g h t t o b e r e v ie w e d a n d t h e n t h e y g o t m o r e
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t h a d b e e n e x c h a n g e d b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e
P r e s i d e n c y a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t . S o – s o I a m
r a i s i n g t h a t p a r t ly b e c a u s e y o u o u t o f n o t r e m e m b e r i n g y o u m i g h t s a y
o n e t h in g b u t w h e n y o u r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y y o u w i ll – y o u m i g h t h a v e
a b e t te r r e c o ll e c ti o n o f w h a t th e p o s i t io n w a s .
ADV
10

PA U L

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

[Not

s p e a k in g

in t o

th e

m ic r o p h o n e ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

In a n y e v e n t Mr N x a s a n a y o u

s a y in p a r a g r a p h 5 6
“ B e c a u s e I d i d n o t h a v e t h e e s s e n ti a l p a r ti c u l a r s o f
t h e a ll e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t m e I c o u l d n o t s a y w h e t h e r
t h e y w e r e t r u e o r w h e th e r t h e y w e r e s u ffi c i e n t ly
s e r io u s t o w a r r a n t s u s p e n s io n o r w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e
such that it is not possible for me to interfere with an
in v e s t i g a t io n in t o th e m o r w i t h w i tn e s s e s w h o m a d e
20

them.”
P e r h a p s I a m l e a d i n g y o u u n f a ir ly b u t d o e s t h a t c o r r e c tl y r e fl e c t y o u r
p o s i ti o n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir i t

r e fl e c ts m y p o s i ti o n . I t h i n k i t i s – i t is s a y in g e x a c tly w h a t I – b e c a u s e
I – I fir m l y b e l ie v e d th a t I w a s n o t g e t t in g a f a ir h e a r in g i f I w a s n o t

Page 170 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
in f o r m e d p r e c is e l y o f w h a t th e P r e s i d e n t w a s r e fe r r i n g t o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e r e s p o n s e t o
y o u r c o m p la i n t s b y th e P r e s i d e n t w e r e t o th e e ffe c t th a t i t a p p e a r s
a p p a r e n t fr o m y o u r in i ti a l r e s p o n s e t h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f t h e m a t t e r s
t o w h i c h t h e Pr e s i d e n t w a s r e f e r r i n g a n d t h a t y o u h a d s u ff ic i e n t
in f o r m a ti o n in o r d e r to e n a b l e y o u to m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s . T h a t w a s
t h e p o s i t io n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t w a s th e p o s it i o n o f

the President yes.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e w ill l o o k a t t h e r e s p o n s e
t o th e n o tic e w h e n w e g e t i t . O v e r t h e p a g e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e C a s i m
I n q u i r y.

C h a i r I a m n o t s u r e t h a t t h e fa c t t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s

c o m p la i n t s in th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e d i ff e r e d fr o m t h e c o m p l a i n ts in th e
s u b m is s io n s n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h i n a n y d e ta il . T h e fa c t is t h a t t h a t
in q u ir y d i d n o t c o m m e n c e .

W h a t is o f m o r e c o n c e r n is w h e t h e r y o u

r e q u ir e Mr N x a s a n a t o g o t h r o u g h h i s d r a f t s u b m is s io n s b e c a u s e t h o s e
d e a l i n d e ta il w i t h m a n y o f t h e is s u e s t h a t h a v e b e e n d is c u s s e d in
evidence.

B e c a u s e i f t h a t is s o a n d if w e c a n n o t j u s t h a v e i t a s a

m a t t e r o f r e c o r d w e w i ll t a k e c o n s id e r a b l e a m o u n t o f ti m e to c o m p le t e
20

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e – i f t h e s u b m is s i o n s a r e h e r e i t i s n o t

n e c e s s a r y t o g o i n to t o o m u c h d e ta il . I t m ig h t b e i m p o r t a n t t o j u s t d e a l
w i t h t h e m a i n f is s u r e s a n d t o c o n f ir m th a t t h e – t h e s u b m is s i o n s r e fl e c t
w h a t h e – h is v ie w s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

L e t u s f ir s t d e a l w i t h t h e

Page 171 of 192

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c o m p la i n t s

you

r a is e d

on

page

14

and

15

of

your

statement.

E s s e n t ia ll y w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g h e r e is t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s c o m p la i n t
a s e x p r e s s e d i n th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e d i ff e r e d f u n d a m e n ta ll y f r o m t h e
c o m p la i n t s t h a t w e r e p u t u p t o A d v o c a te C a s i m i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e
in q u ir y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u c a n h i g h l ig h t fo r t h e C h a i r
t h e e s s e n t i a l d i ffe r e n c e s b e t w e e n th e t w o . I a m n o t s u r e th a t t h a t is a
f a ir q u e s t io n t o y o u b u t in w h a t r e s p e c t d i d t h e y d i ff e r fu n d a m e n t a l ly a s
10

o p p o s e d t o i n fo r m a l d e t a i l ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

C h a ir t h e c o m p la in t s th a t

h e h a d – t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d m e n ti o n e d i n h is te r ms o f r e fe r e n c e s o m e o f
t h e m w h e n h e in s ti t u t e d – w h e n h e a p p o i n t e d t h e C a s i m I n q u ir y h e d i d
n o t p u t t h e m a s t h e – a s t h e c o m p l a in ts . I th i n k th a t is th e p o i n t t h a t I
w a s m a k in g a n d t h e n I m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o – to t h e – t o th o s e h e r e in –
fr o m p a r a g r a p h – fr o m p a g e 1 4 to p a g e 1 5 .

I t h i n k a ls o p a g e 1 6 a s

w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll y o u c a n m e n ti o n o n e o r t w o – t w o o r th r e e

f u n d a m e n t a l d i ffe r e n c e s a n d th e n – t h e n w e c a n m o v e o n .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair the complaint …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s w h a t t h e i n q u ir y w a s r e q u i r e d t o d o is t o

d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r y o u w e r e f i t t o c o n t i n u e i n o ffic e a s th e N D P P.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s th e f a c t u a l b a s is o n w h ic h i t w a s s u p p o s e d
t o d e t e r m i n e t h a t is s u e o r w e r e th e f a c t u a l b a s is t h e i s s u e o f t h e

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
a s s a u l t c o n v i c ti o n a n d t h e m u r d e r a c q u it t a l a n d t h e a b s e n c e o f a
c le a r a n c e c e r t i fic a t e .

What was the context of that – of that – that

f u n c t i o n , th a t b r i e f o n th e p a r t o f t h e i n q u ir y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y. C h a ir t h e le t t e r th a t
I r e c e iv e d f r o m t h e Pr e s id e n t o r t h e m i n u te s d a t e d t h e 3 0 J u l y 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is o n p a g e 4 8 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a g e w h a t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 48.
10

CHAIRPERSON: 48.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 4 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And the last paragraph.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s b u t th a t is t h e n o t ic e o f

in t e n t io n to s u s p e n d . H e r e w e a r e l o o k i n g a t th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e a s
o p p o s e d t o th e s u b mi s s io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . It s a y s t h e i n q u ir y w il l e x a m in e y o u r f it n e s s
t o h o ld t h e o ffi c e a s N a ti o n a l D i r e c to r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u ti o n s h a v i n g
r e g a r d t o w h e t h e r – s o it is e x a c tl y w h a t w e a r e l o o k in g fo r.
20

1 . T h e c r i m i n a l c o n v i c ti o n w h ic h y o u p o s s e s s fo r v i o l e n t c o n d u c t .
2 . R e p o r t e d c o m m e n ts in t h e m e d ia a r e u n b e c o m in g o f a N a t i o n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s d iv i s iv e a n d h a v e th e e ff e c t o f
b r i n g i n g t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty i n t o d is r e p u t e .
3 . T h e l a c k o f d i s c lo s u r e o f t h e f a c ts a n d c i r c u ms t a n c e s o f
prosecutions

w h ic h

you

fa c e d

are

Page 173 of 192

consonant

with

th e

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
c o n s c i e n t io u s n e s s a n d i n te g r it y o f a n i n c u m b e n t to th e o ff ic e o f
N D P P. ”
S o th e f a c tu a l b a s is fo r t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e i n q u ir y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e r e th e s e th r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th e – i t w a s t h e s e t h r e e g r o u n d s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o i f I m i g h t j u s t c l a r if y C h a ir.

I n p a r a g r a p h 6 0 a n d 6 1 w h a t th e – w h a t M r N x a s a n a is s a y i n g h e r e i s
10

t h a t t h e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e p u b l is h e d o n t h e 9 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 d e a l w i t h
t h e is s u e s in p a r a g r a p h 6 1 a n d in c o n tr a s t to t h a t t h e s u b mi s s io n s o n
b e h a l f o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t t h e M i n is te r f il e d o n M o n d a y f o r M a y 2 0 1 5 w e r e
d i ff e r e n t to t h e c o m p la in t s in t h e te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e .
c o m p a r in g t w o d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s .

So he is

And perhaps if we just look at

paragraph 61.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B e c a u s e th e le t t e r to w h i c h w e

h a v e r e f e r r e d w a s th e l e t t e r i n v it i n g h i m to m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i n
r e g a r d t o s u s p e n s io n . A n d m a y b e t h a t is a t h ir d d i ff e r e n c e b u t n o t t h e
20

d i ff e r e n c e s r e f e r r e d t o h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t – w e ll f o r m e i t i s h e l p fu l i n s o f a r a s i t t e l ls m e
w h a t th e P r e s i d e n t th o u g h t a s a t 3 0 J u ly 2 0 1 4 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i n q u ir y w o u l d lo o k i n to a n d o n w h a t g r o u n d s b u t
o f c o u r s e t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e s a m e is s u e is d e a l t w i th e ls e w h e r e w e

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m u s t lo o k – l o o k a t o th e r – o t h e r d o c u m e n t s a s w e ll .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

So is it correct that the

t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e i n s u m m a r y r e f e r r e d t o t w o p r e v io u s s e p a r a t e
c o n v i c ti o n s o n c h a r g e s o f a s s a u l t r e f e r r e d t o c o m p la i n t s o f p r o fe s s i o n
m is c o n d u c t l a i d a g a i n s t y o u w i th t h e K w a Z u l u N a t a l L a w S o c i e t y.
R e f e r r e d t o y o u h a v i n g f a c e d c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s f o r a c t s o f v io l e n c e .
R e f e r r e d t o y o u r a r r e s t a n d d e t e n ti o n o n c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a lb e i t
u n s p e c i fi e d a n d r e fe r r e d t o th e m e d i a s t a te m e n ts b r i n g i n g t h e N D P P
a n d N PA in t o d is r e p u t e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s a n d a n y o t h e r m a t t e r
yes.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s th a t is i m p o r ta n t . A n d t h e

t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a l s o r e f e r r e d to a n y o th e r m a t t e r a s m i g h t b e
r e l e v a n t to t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d i s s u e s a n d y o u r fi t n e s s a n d p r o p r i e ty t o
h o l d o ff ic e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o t h a t is a n o p e n d o o r f o r

f u r th e r a l le g a ti o n s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e c o m p l a i n ts i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3
y o u s u m m a r is e t h e c o m p l a i n ts i n t h e s u b m is s io n a n d y o u s a y t h a t w h a t
w a s c o m p l a i n e d o f i n t h e s u b m is s io n s a g a in s t y o u w a s f ir s tl y t h a t
b e f o r e y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t y o u h a d fa il e d to d is c l o s e to t h e Pr e s id e n t o r
h is a d v is o r s th a t y o u h a d t w o p r e v io u s c o n v ic ti o n s fo r a s s a u l t, c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t s e c o n d ly y o u h a d fa il e d t o
t a k e s t e p s t o e x p e d i te th e f in a lis a ti o n o f a c o m p la i n t to th e L a w S o c i e t y
by Mr Jabulani Mtshali against you in 2008.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t e m p h a s is

fr o m w h a t h a d b e e n r a is e d e a r l i e r.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Fr o m w h a t – y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d t h ir d ly t h a t i n y o u r s e c u r it y
c le a r a n c e a p p l ic a ti o n y o u f a i le d t o d is c l o s e t h a t d u r i n g 1 9 8 5 y o u h a d
10

b e e n a c q u i t te d o n a c h a r g e o f m u r d e r a n d t h a t d u r i n g O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 y o u
h a d b e e n a r r e s t e d b u t n o t c h a r g e d fo r in c o n s i d e r a te d r i v i n g .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

B u t C h a ir I t h i n k m o s t

i m p o r t a n tly w h a t y o u h a v e o m i t t e d t o r e a d t h a t i n th a t s e c u r it y
c le a r a n c e

a p p lic a ti o n

q u e s t i o n n a ir e

in

answers

to

the

f o ll o w i n g

q u e s t io n “
C H A I R P E R S O N : A D V J U LI E A N N H O WA R D : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

“Have you ever been

c o n v i c te d o r a r e th e r e a n y p e n d i n g c a s e s f o r a c r i m in a l o r d e p a r t m e n t
case?”
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : D e p a r t m e n t a l c a s e . Th e n
– b e c a u s e t h is is v e r y i m p o r t a n t . T h i s is w h a t t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a it is i m p o r t a n t. Yo u a r e r i g h t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t

b e c a u s e t h e s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e is w r i t t e n i n t h is fa s h io n .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE O LIVER NXA SANA: And he says that I failed to
d is c l o s e th is . B u t i f y o u lo o k a t i t i t i s n o t t h e – i t i s n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s y o u f a il e d to d i s c l o s e a n a c q u i tt a l.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n a c q u i tt a l w h ic h is n o t –
w h ic h i s n o t w h a t is a s k e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c tu a lly – a c tu a lly y o u – y o u – if y o u – i f y o u h a d s a id
I w a s a c q u i tt e d b la , b l a , b l a a n y b o d y r e a d i n g t h a t w o u l d h a v e s a i d w h a t
is t h is p e r s o n ta lk in g a b o u t. T h e q u e s ti o n w a s a b o u t c o n v ic ti o n .
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is – t h a t is it C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d s e c o n d ly t h e s a m e l o g ic

a p p li e s t o t h e fa c t th a t y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d b u t n o t c h a r g e d f o r
in c o n s id e r a te d r iv i n g d u r in g O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ex a c t ly.

B u t I t h in k i n

s i m p l e l a y m a n ’s t e r m i f y o u a r e a r r e s te d n o t c h a r g e d y o u a s g o o d a s
y o u a r e n o t c o n v ic te d y o u a r e n o t p r o s e c u t e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:
20

I m e a n t h e – th e r e is n o

is s u e . I d o n o t k n o w w h y [i n d is t in c t] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t if t h e q u e s t i o n w a s h a v e y o u

ever been arrested.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ar r e s t e d y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 177 of 192

It would have been

19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
d i ff e r e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n y o u w e r e a ls o c h a r g e d
h e r e w i th f a ili n g t o d is c l o s e w h e t h e r y o u h a d t a k e n a n y s t e p s t o r e s o l v e
y o u r c o m p l a in t a g a in s t t h e t w o p o l ic e o ff ic e r s w h o a r r e s t e d y o u
u n l a w f u l ly d u r i n g O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 f o r in c o n s i d e r a t e d r iv i n g . I a m n o t s u r e
t h a t th a t i s c o v e r e d b y th e s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e q u e s t io n e i t h e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o it is n o t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o t a t a ll .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t th e r e d o e s a p p e a r
t o b e a d i ff e r e n c e i n d e ta il a n d e m p h a s is .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In d e ta il a n d e m p h a s is y e s
C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u p o i n t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 4 o n
p a g e 1 6 t h a t c e r t a i n c o m p la in t s d id n o t f a l l w i t h i n th e te r ms o f
r e fe r e n c e .

T h a t is a n a n a ly s i s t h a t o n e c o u l d d o in d u e c o u r s e w it h

r e fe r e n c e to w h a t y o u s a y h e r e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

My c o n c e r n C h a i r is i n r e l a ti o n

t o t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h e s u b m is s i o n f o r t h e C a s i m I n q u ir y.

In t h a t

s u b m is s io n M r N x a s a n a s e ts o u t i n s o m e d e ta il s th e m e r i ts o f t h e
c o m p la i n t s a g a in s t h i m .

N o w th e m e r i t s o f th e c o m p l a i n t a g a i n s t h i m

m a y b e r e le v a n t to a d i ffe r e n t i n q u i r y a s t o w h e th e r t h e r e w a s m e r i t . I n
r e l y i n g o n t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s a s t h e y w e r e w i t h t h e t i m e l a p s e a n d f o r
t h a t r e a s o n I h a v e t a k e n a s l i g h t ly d i ffe r e n t v ie w fr o m th e v i e w I h a d

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
e a r l ie r t h a t o n e c o u l d j u s t s i m p l y p l a c e t h e m o n r e c o r d .

So my view

s u b j e c t t o w h a t y o u s a y C h a ir is t h a t w e s h o u l d d e a l w i th t h e m a lb e i t b y
h i g h l ig h ti n g . O t h e r w i s e w e c a n ta k e th e m a s r e a d i f M r N x a s a n a s i m p l y
c o n fir m s b u t I d o s u s p e c t t h a t i f w e a r e t o g o t h r o u g h t h e m i n a n y d e t a il
in f a c t I m o r e t h a n s u s p e c t I a m q u i t e c e r t a i n w e w i ll n o t fi n is h b y s ix .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f th e i n q u ir y w h e r e a s –

d i d y o u s a y w e r e s u c h th a t a n y t h in g c o u l d b e a d d e d a s t h e i n q u ir y w a s
going on?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is s o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w i t – t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e r e a d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e – a n y o th e r m a t te r ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: Any other matter as might
b e r e le v a n t b u t to t h e a b o v e m e n t io n e d is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

To t h e i s s u e s th a t w e r e

m e n ti o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e – w h ic h …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:
20

The one two previous

c o n v i c ti o n s , c o m p la in t s o f p r o f e s s i o n a l m is c o n d u c t .
c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s fo r a c ts o f v io l e n c e .

M y h a v in g f a c e d

M y a r r e s t a n d d e te n ti o n o n

c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s , m e d i a s t a te m e n ts e i th e r is s u e d b y m e o r o n m y
in s t r u c t i o n th a t u n d e r m i n e d o r b r o u g h t t h e o ffi c e o f th e N D P P o r t h e
N PA in t o d is r e p u t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e r e m a y b e a ll e g a ti o n s th a t w e r e m a d e w h i c h

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h a v e n e v e r b e e n s u b s t a n t ia t e d b y a n y b o d y i n a n y f o r u m .

A ll e g a t io n s

m a d e – t h e r e m a y b e a ll e g a t io n s t h a t w e r e i n c lu d e d i n th e s u b m is s i o n s
a g a in s t M r N x a s a n a w h ic h w e r e n e v e r s u b s t a n t ia t e d b y a n y b o d y o r b y
a n y e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e t h e C a s i m I n q u ir y d i d n o t p r o c e e d . A n d i t m a y
w e ll b e th a t a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h e r e is t h e is s u e o f t h e s e t t le m e n t
agreement.

T h e t e r m s o f t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t w h e r e t h e

P r e s i d e n t a s I r e c a l l th e t e r m s t h e r e o f s p e c i fi c a ll y a c k n o w l e d g e s t h a t
M r N x a s a n a w a s s u i t a b l e t o h o l d a s I r e c a l l a n y s e n io r p u b l ic s e r v ic e
p o s i ti o n . I t h i n k a t s o m e s t a g e I t h o u g h t i t s a y s s p e c i f ic a l ly t o h o ld t h e
10

p o s i ti o n o f N D P P.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I t h i n k – I t h in k th a t m ig h t b e M r Vu s i P ik o l i’s

s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e th e r e w a s s o m e s i m i la r i ty b e tw e e n t h e
t w o s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t s . I t h i n k M r N x a s a n a ’s o n e s a y s a n y s e n i o r
p o s i ti o n i n t h e p u b lic s e r v ic e . M r N x a s a n a is th a t y o u r r e c o l le c ti o n a s
w e ll ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th a t is m y r e c o ll e c t io n

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir i t i s t h e r e o n p a g e –
o n p a r a g r a p h 8 2 .1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 82.1?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

8 2 . 1 th a t i s th e l a s t

paragraph on page 22. The last sentence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s o u r c e o f t h e d i s p u t e w a s e ff e c t …

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th e l a s t s e n t e n c e I s a i d .

T h e la s t fr o m t h e b o t to m l in e .
“ M y fi t n e s s a n d p r o p r i e t a r y w a s a g r e e d to a n d
r e c o r d e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d M i n i s t e r i n th e
s e t tl e m e n t

agreement

and

did

not

c o n te n d

o th e r w i s e b e f o r e c o u r t. ”
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h a t I a m s a y in g is I s e e m t o h a v e - my

u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t i n y o u r s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w h a t w a s s a i d w a s
t h a t th e y c o n s i d e r e d t h a t y o u w e r e fi t to h o l d a n y s e n i o r p o s i ti o n in th e
10

P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d m a y b e t h e y c a n t h e n a r g u m e n t t h a t a n y s e n io r
p o s i ti o n i n th e P u b l ic S e r v ic e w o u l d i n c lu d e t h e p o s i ti o n o f N D P P.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y I r e a d i t C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e , j a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lt h o u g h i t i s n o t b e f o r e y o u .

Mr Nxasana may recall the wording.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e , ja .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th e w o r d i n g t h a t w e h a v e o n

r e c o r d M r N x a s a n a w h ic h y o u m a y r e c a ll a n d c o m m e n t o n n o w is t h e
f o ll o w i n g :
20

“The

Pr e s i d e n t

r e c o g n is e s

that

the

NDPP

is

p r o f e s s i o n a ll y c o m p e te n t , s u ff ic ie n tl y e x p e r i e n c e d
a n d c o n s c i e n t io u s a n d h a s th e r e q u is it e in t e g r i ty t o
h o l d a s e n i o r p u b li c p o s i ti o n b o th i n t h e p u b li c a n d
p r i v a t e s e c t o r. ”
Is t h a t th e r e c o l l e c ti o n ?

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t is

- t h a t is

the

r e c o l l e c ti o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Does that accord with your

r e c o l l e c ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. T h a t d o e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e r e f e r e n c e t o c o n s c i e n t i o u s n e s s a n d

in t e g r i ty is th a t t a k e n fr o m t h e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Fr o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N a t io n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty A c t a s r e q u ir e m e n t s t o
10

be made by an NDPP?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

I t i s - i t is a c t u a ll y

t a k e n fr o m S e c t i o n 1 7 9 o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k t h a t n e e d s t o
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

R e a d t o g e t h e r w i th - I

t h i n k - S e c t io n 2 2 o f t h e N PA A c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k th a t - t h a t m a y b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e q u e s t i o n y o u
w e r e r a is i n g Mr P r e t o r iu s b e c a u s e i f a t th e ti m e o f s e t tl e m e n t t h e
20

P r e s i d e n t e ff e c ti v e ly a c k n o w l e d g e d th a t M r N x a s a n a w a s - h a d a l l t h a t
w a s r e q u i r e d fo r h i m to b e a n d c o n ti n u e t o b e t h e N D P P.
Then maybe whatever he may have said or may have been
s a i d i n s u b m i s s i o n s o n h is b e h a l f m ig h t b e n e it h e r h e r e n o r th e r e
b e c a u s e i t m a y r e fl e c t t h a t a t t h e t i m e o f t h e s u b m is s i o n s h e m a y h a v e
b e e n t h in k i n g in a c e r ta in w a y b u t a t th e t i m e o f t h e s e t t le m e n t h e h a d

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a c e r ta in v i e w a n d t h a t v i e w w a s th a t h e m e e t s t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ju s t d e p e n d s w h e t h e r t h e t e r m s w h i c h y o u h a v e

r e a d c a p t u r e th e r e q u i r e m e n ts i n th e A c t f o r - fo r s o m e b o d y w h o is
N D P P.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s C h a ir w e c a n e x tr a c t th o s e

n o w fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty A c t .

W h a t a r e th e ir

r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r a p p o i n t m e n t ? W e c a n d e a l w i th t h a t b r i e fl y. I f C h a ir
t h e a s s e s s m e n t t h a t y o u u l t i m a te ly w i ll m a k e o f a l l t h e s e f a c ts i s
10

d e t e r m i n e d b y th e u l ti m a t e c o n c e s s io n th a t t h e r e w e r e i n d e e d n o
g r o u n d s a s c o n c e d e d b y t h e P r e s id e n t i n t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t t h a t
is o n e a p p r o a c h b u t i t m a y b e o f i n t e r e s t t o d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r t h e
g r o u n d s r a is e d i n th e i n q u ir y w e r e a t th e o u ts e t s p u r io u s o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A d v i s e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th a t th is w a s m e r e ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : ( I n d is ti n c t) .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , m a y b e it is b e t t e r to d e a l - t o b e o n t h e s a f e s id e .
I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m n o t r u li n g . I a m …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir a s lo n g a s I c a n l a y it a t

y o u r d o o r. N o C h a ir I …

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e f a c t o f t h e m a t te r is w h y w o u l d t h e - w h y

w o u ld t h e i n q u ir y b e t e r m i n a t e d i f t h e r e w e r e g r o u n d s f o r i t t o c o n ti n u e
a n d m a k e a d e te r m in a ti o n ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P r e c is e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e - w e ll o f c o u r s e I t h in k t h e s e tt l e m e n t

a g r e e m e n t s a y s t h e p a r t ie s r e c o g n i s e t h a t p r o t r a c t e d l i ti g a t i o n w a s n o t
in t h e in t e r e s t o f a n y b o d y a n d a l l o f th a t . S o …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t is i t a m a tt e r o f p r i n c ip le

t h a t s h o u l d b e s e t t le d i n t h a t m a n n e r …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t h i n k th a t i s s o m e t h in g th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e . J a th a t m a y b e a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t w a s c o n s id e r e d b y t h e

C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t . C a n y o u s e e th e s e m a tt e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: I - I …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f p r in c i p l e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k i t m i g h t b e s a fe r t o l e t h i m d e a l to a l i m i t - to
s o m e e x t e n t w i t h t h e m e r i ts o n a b a s is th a t i f a n y b o d y d o e s c o m e a n d
g iv e e v i d e n c e h e m i g h t h a v e t o b r o u g h t b a c k , g iv e e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e if
20

- i f a n y b o d y c o m e s a n d g iv e s d e t a i ls to t h e c o m p la in t s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o i f w e m a y th e n g o to

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
Annexure MN5 that is at page 51.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I h a v e i t h e r e . Ye s I h a v e
it .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d i f w e c o u ld g o t o p a g e 5 7

paragraph 20.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr P r e t o r iu s . I s e e a t p a g e 5 1 w h a t m a y
h a v e c a u s e d y o u to r e fe r to Mr M d l a d l a a s Ml a la . I s e e t h e r e i s - th e r e
is a m is p l a c i n g o f t h e s u r n a m e h e r e . S o p r o b a b l y t h a t is w h e r e y o u g o t
t h a t fr o m b u t it is M d l a d l a b u t I t h in k t h is i s w h e r e y o u g o t i t fr o m .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u c o u l d t h e n g o t o p a g e 5 7 .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e r e y o u d e a l w i t h th e m e r it s o f
t h e is s u e s r a i s e d e i t h e r i n t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o r i n t h e c o m p l a i n t a s
s u b m i tt e d t o A d v o c a te C a s s i m . C o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d b r ie f ly i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e tw o
c o n v i c ti o n s f o r a s s a u lt m e a n i n g t h a t y o u a r e n o t f i t a n d p r o p e r t o b e

20

t h e N D P P. W h a t w a s y o u r s u b m is s i o n b r ie fl y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k y o u s a id e a r l ie r o n t h a t y o u h a d d is c lo s e d th e
c o n v i c ti o n f o r a s s a u l t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : As s a u lt ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u a p p li e d f o r a d m is s i o n a s a n a t to r n e y to th e

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L a w S o c i e t y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u w a n t to d e a l w it h th a t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u - I t h i n k y o u m a d e th a t p o in t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I a m - I d o n o t th i n k th a t i s t h e c o m p l e t e p o i n t

that you made.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

P e r h a p s i f th a t c a n b e

e x p l a i n e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

T h e c o n v ic ti o n o f a s s a u l t , w a s th e -

was …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D e a l w i th th e a ll e g a t i o n s in

paragraph 24.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W a s t h e f a c t t h a t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d b e e n c o n v ic t e d o f a s s a u lt in 1 9 - is it 8 5 ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 85.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

1 9 8 5 , w a s t h a t a g r o u n d t o r e n d e r y o u u n fi t t o h o l d

o ffic e a s N D P P ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir I - I m a d e t h e

s u b m is s io n th a t m y - m y v i e w w a s t h a t i t - i t w a s n o t a g r o u n d - a
g r o u n d to r e n d e r m e u n fi t . I s a y t h a t I w a s v e r y y o u n g . I t h i n k I w a s
a b o u t 1 7 o r 1 8 y e a r s o l d w h e n I w a s c o n v ic t e d o f t h o s e a s s a u l ts a n d
t h e - th e c o n v ic t io n s o c c u r r e d a l m o s t m o r e t h a n 3 0 y e a r s b e fo r e m y

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a p p o i n t m e n t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e n y o u w e r e 1 7 a n d 1 8 ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d i s c l o s e d t h is t o - w h e n y o u a p p li e d f o r - f o r
admission as an attorney?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d I
d is c l o s e d a ls o - f ir s t ly I d is c lo s e d w h e n I r e g is t e r e d m y a r tic le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t o th e L a w S o c i e t y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

To t h e L a w S o c ie t y a n d I

a ls o d i s c l o s e d i t w h e n I a p p li e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

To b e - t o b e a d m i t t e d a s

a n a t to r n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m . W a s i t h e ld t o b e s o m e t h i n g th a t r e n d e r e d y o u

u n f i t t o b e a n a t to r n e y ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: No?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No. I was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e H i g h C o u r t a d m i t te d y o u a s a n a t t o r n e y …
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e H ig h C o u r t a d m i t t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n t h o u g h it w a s a w a r e y o u h a d a c o m m o n a s s a u l t
…
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n v ic ti o n t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d s o m e ti m e b e f o r e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I t h i n k I m u s t p a u s e
h e r e a n d m e n t io n t h a t t h e - th e w a y t h e s e p r e v i o u s c o n v ic ti o n s w e r e s o
old …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I -

I could

not even

r e m e m b e r t h e d e t a i ls o f t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

P r e v io u s c o n v ic t io n s a n d

w h e n I a p p li e d to t h e L a w S o c i e ty - i n fa c t h o w I a ls o c a m e to k n o w t h a t
t h e r e w e r e t w o c o n v ic ti o n s i s w h e n a l a d y a t N PA . S h e w a s a t th e - I
t h i n k s h e w a s a t t h e r is k a n d w h a t- w h a t u n i t.

She then asked to

c o n d u c t s o m e v e t ti n g a n d t h e n s h e c a m e b a c k to m e a n d s a i d I h a v e
t w o p r e v io u s c o n v ic ti o n s o f a s s a u lt a n d i n m y m in d I - I o n l y k n e w o n e
a n d th e n I w a s w o r r ie d w h ic h w a s - w h ic h o n e w a s s h e t a lk i n g a b o u t
a n d i t w a s - i t w a s t h e r e o n m y r e c o r d a n d i t a s s is t e d m e a lo t b e c a u s e
w h e n I c o m p le t e d t h e s e c u r it y c l e a r a n c e c e r ti fi c a t e I m e n ti o n e d i t a n d I
s a i d a l th o u g h I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t - w h a t i t w a s a b o u t b u t b e c a u s e
of the passage of - of age and yes those were - because I remember
20

t h a t I t h i n k t h e - th e r e c o r d s a y s i n - t h e o n e t h a t I k n o w v e r y w e l l w a s
t h e c o n v i c t i o n a t N g e n g o m a ( ? ) w h e r e I - I w a s s e n te n c e d t o p a y I t h i n k
a f i n e o f R 5 0 , 0 0 o r 3 0 d a y s i m p r is o n m e n t .
T h e n I p a i d a f in e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r i t - it w a s 3 0
d a y s , i t w a s R 3 0 , 0 0 o r 5 0 b u t t h a t is w h a t I - I - t h e r e c o ll e c t io n t h a t I
have.

T h e n t h e o t h e r o n e s a id I w a s c o n v i c te d in D u r b a n f o r a s s a u lt

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common in 1984 or 85. I cannot remember what - what was that about
b u t it s a id I w a s c a u t io n e d a n d d i s c h a r g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n t o d a y y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It lo o k s li k e t o m e w e c a n n o t fi n i s h b y s ix .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e r e i s a l i tt l e w a y t o g o .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja.

M u s t y o u g o b a c k t o D u r b a n t h is e v e n i n g

Mr Nxasana?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a I k n o w. W e - w e c a n n o t f i n is h .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n f a ir n e s s t o a ll p a r t i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n c lu d in g t h o s e w h o w is h to

ju s t i fy th e i n q u ir y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

S o I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e f o r e w e m a y a s w e ll

a d j o u r n n o w b u t a ls o a d jo u r n in g m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t fr o m t h e p o i n t o f
v ie w o f a ffo r d in g M r N x a s a n a ti m e t o g e t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts th a t h e m a y
20

w i s h t o u s e to r e fr e s h h is m e m o r y o n s o m e o f th e th i n g s . Yo u k n o w d o
y o u h a v e - d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u h a v e g o t a f u ll s e t o f th e
p a p e r s t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h e c o r r u p t io n w a tc h m a t t e r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e c a n p r o v i d e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b e c a u s e y o u m ig h t w is h - s o m e o f th e th i n g s w e w e m i g h t b e t a k i n g l o n g a b o u t s o m e o f th e t h i n g s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e to

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tr y a n d r e m e m b e r.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Whereas if you have had a chance to go through most
o f t h o s e - s o m e o f t h o s e t h in g s it w o u ld b e e a s ie r. W e l l w e - o n e , w e
c a n - w e c a n a d j o u r n b u t w h a te v e r is le f t I d o n o t i m a g in e w e w o u l d
need more than two hours?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o C h a ir.

Tw o h o u r s w o u l d d o

it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I n w h ic h c a s e w e c a n a r r a n g e to c o n t in u e o n t h e
10

d a y o n w h ic h w e c o n ti n u e w e c o u ld s ta r t e a r l ie r th a n n o r m a l - e a r li e r
than 10 o’ clock.

I f w e s t a r t fo r e x a m p le a t n i n e t h e n w e w o u l d -

h o p e fu ll y w e w o u ld b e d o n e b y 11 a n d t h e w i t n e s s f o r t h e d a y w h o
w o u ld h a v e s ta r t e d a t 1 0 w i ll j u s t b e d e l a y e d b y o n e h o u r. T h a t is o n e
o p t io n .
A n o th e r o p t i o n is th a t w e - w e c o u l d e v e n d o t h e d a y s w i tn e s s
a n d th e n m a y b e s t a r t l a t e a f t e r th a t w i tn e s s .

M a y b e t h e m o r n in g o n e

m i g h t b e b e tt e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s o u n d s s o , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s o u n d s b e t t e r. S o - s o b u t i t - i t s h o u l d i f p o s s i b l e
20

n o t b e t o o f a r fr o m n o w. M r N x a s a n a d o - d o y o u k n o w w h e n y o u m i g h t
h a v e t h a t tw o h o u r s in t h e m o r n i n g - w h e n n e x t y o u m i g h t h a v e t h a t
ti m e ? O f c o u r s e c o m i n g f r o m D u r b a n i t w il l n o t b e t w o h o u r s f o r y o u .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t - it w o u ld - i t w o u l d m e a n h a l f a d a y w i t h t h e

tr a v e l li n g .

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19 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 147
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

I - I w i ll h a v e

t o c o n f e r w i th m y - I d id n o t b r in g m y d ia r y w i t h m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A lr i g h t . I th i n k l e t u s l e a v e i t o n th e b a s is
t h a t M r N x a s a n a w il l - y o u w i ll t a lk t o e a c h o t h e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To a d a t e t o b e a r r a n g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir c a n I - m a y I j u s t r e a d f o r
c o m p le t io n o f t o d a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S e c ti o n 9 t o w h i c h r e f e r e n c e w a s
m a d e e a r l i e r o f t h e N PA A c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

R e g a r d in g t h e q u a l i fic a ti o n s f o r

o ffic e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S e c ti o n 9 . 1 r e a d s :
“ A n y p e r s o n to b e a p p o i n te d a s N a t i o n a l D ir e c t o r,
D e p u ty

National

D ir e c t o r

or

D ir e c t o r

must

a,

p o s s e s s l e g a l q u a li fi c a t io n s t h a t w o u ld e n ti tl e h i m
20

o r h e r t o p r a c t ic e in a ll c o u r ts i n t h e R e p u b li c a n d
b , b e a fi t a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n w i th d u e r e g a r d to h is
o r h e r e x p e r i e n c e , c o n s c ie n ti o u s n e s s a n d i n t e g r i t y
t o b e e n tr u s t e d w it h t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o f t h e
o ffic e c o n c e r n e d . ”
S o th e r e i s a c o in c i d e n c e i n l a n g u a g e .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a . J a . N o t h a t i s f i n e . O k a y. I t h i n k w e - w e
m u s t a d jo u r n a n d t h e n a n o t h e r d a t e s h o u l d b e a r r a n g e d . I h o p e it w il l
n o t b e b e y o n d n e x t w e e k i f p o s s i b l e b u t i t i s s u b j e c t to M r N x a s a n a ’s
p r a c ti c e a s w e l l a n d w h a t h e h a s i n h is d i a r y b u t l e t u s tr y a n d s e e
w h e t h e r b y e n d o f t h is w e e k th e d a te h a s b e e n fi n a l is e d .

O k a y.

M r N x a s a n a s o w e w il l a d jo u r n o n - o n t h a t u n d e r s t a n d in g .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

On that understanding,

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M r Pr e t o r i u s w e w ill a d j o u r n t h e n o n t h a t
10

b a s is .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . To m o r r o w w e w i ll b e s t a r ti n g a t h a l f p a s t e i g h t
a n d w e w i ll b e r e s u m in g t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r T h a b e t h e , th e H e a d o f
D e p a r t m e n t - o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l t u r e i n th e Fr e e S t a t e i n
r e g a r d t o t h e Vr e d e D a i r y m a t te r. W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 0 A U G U S T 2 0 1 9

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