C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

19 FEBRUARY 2020

D AY 2 1 5

20

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 19 FEBRUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e w e r e a d y ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e in d e e d . C h a ir th is m o r n in g t h e r e i s f ir s t
a m a tt e r o f a n a p p l ic a ti o n f o r th e fir s t w i t n e s s to g i v e h i s e v i d e n c e i n camera.

I u s e t h a t te r m l o o s e ly a g a in a s I d id p r e v i o u s ly t h is w e e k

b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e o n l y s p e c if ic r e s p e c t s i n w h ic h th e w it n e s s s e e k s n o t
t o h a v e h is i d e n t i ty d is c l o s e d .
10

H e i s h o w e v e r l e g a ll y r e p r e s e n t e d a n d I w o u l d lik e t o o ff e r a n
o p p o r t u n i ty fo r m y le a r n e d fr i e n d to i n t r o d u c e h i ms e lf a n d m o v e t h a t
a p p lic a ti o n i f I m a y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

M o r n in g C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

My n a m e i s A d v o c a t e D a v id M ts w e n i I

p r a c ti c e w i t h t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r a is e y o u r v o ic e
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
20

M y n a m e i s A d v o c a t e D a v i d M ts w e n i I p r a c ti c e

w i t h t h e Pr e t o r i a S o c ie ty o f A d v o c a t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

O n b r i e f b y t h e o ffi c e o f t h e S t a te A t t o r n e y o n

b e h a l f o f a w i t n e s s to b e k n o w n a s M r Y f o r t h e r e c o r d p u r p o s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:

C h a ir – C h a ir p e r s o n i n a n u ts h e ll t h e r e a s o n s

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
f o r w h y t h e – Mr Y ’s e v i d e n c e o u g h t to b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll b e f o r e t h a t I h a v e g o t a n – I h a v e g o t – i s t h i s a
d u p lic a ti o n o r w h a t ?

O h ja I h a v e g o t t w o fi l e s t h a t a p p e a r to b e t h e

s a m e o n t h e o u ts i d e . L e t m e s e e .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

C h a ir I a m t o l d t h a t t h e o t h e r o n e h a s g o t th e

– is r e d a c te d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

T h e o t h e r o n e is u n - r e d a c t e d – t h e u n -

r e d a c t e d v e r s io n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i t s h o u ld h a v e a l m o s t …

It is ju s t t h a t I h a v e g o t w h a t I t h o u g h t w o u l d h a v e

b e e n a r e f e r e n c e b e i n g t h e s a m e S E Q 0 2 . 2 0 2 0 f o r b o t h o f th e m . B u t t h e
o n e y o u a r e m o v in g is I th in k t h i s o t h e r o n e t h e i d e n t it y o f – o h w e ll th e
p e r s o n h a s d e p o s e d t o t h e f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t t h e r e h a s g o t a n a m e .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e n t h e r e is t h is o n e w h ic h h a s g o t a n a ff id a v i t w i t h
t h e n a m e a n d c e r t a in p a r tic u la r s b lo c k e d o u t.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
20

Ye s t h a t is t h e u n – t h a t is t h e r e d a c t e d

version.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w – s o th e a p p li c a t io n is b e i n g b r o u g h t b y t h e

S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s o n …

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

The reasons

C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u s e e – i t i s tr ic k y b e c a u s e t h e a p p li c a t io n i s
b e i n g b r o u g h t b y t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y a n d n o t b y th e p e r s o n
h i m s e l f o r h e r s e l f. B u t th e f o u n d in g a ff id a v i t i s b y t h e p e r s o n h i m s e l f .
I n t h e f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t i t d o e s n o t s a y t h a t t h e A p p l ic a n t is th e S t a te
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.

It is ju s t t h a t i n th e h e a d i n g i t s a y s :

The State

S e c u r i ty A g e n c y o f th e R e p u b li c o f S o u th A fr i c a A p p l ic a n t .
10

A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W e – C h a ir p e r s o n w e u s e d t h e a g e n c y b y

v ir t u e o f th e a g e n c y b e i n g h i s e m p l o y e r b u t th e b e s t p e r s o n t o – c a n
e x p l a i n to y o u C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e a s o n s w h y h e e v id e n c e o u g h t t o b e –
s h o u l d b e i n - c a m e r a w o u ld b e t h e d e p o n e n t h i m s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I a m n o t th e r e y e t . I a m n o t o n t h e m e r it s o f th e
a p p lic a ti o n .

I a m o n t h e A p p l ic a n t .

I a m s a y in g th a t I n e e d t o k n o w

w h o t h e A p p l ic a n t i s fi r s t . N o w t h e – th e o n e t h a t I d e a l t w i t h t w o d a y s
a g o – t w o d a y s a g o t h e A p p li c a n t w a s M r X .
a p p lic a ti o n .

N o w h e r e t h e h e a d i n g s u g g e s ts th a t t h e a p p li c a n t is th e

S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
20

S o M r X b r o u g h t th e

Now you cannot just decide that because you

a r e e m p l o y e d b y t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y y o u a r e g o in g t o b r in g
p r o c e e d i n g s i n t h e n a m e o f th e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y.
T h e r e h a s g o t t o b e m o r e t h a n th a t .

Yo u k n o w.

A r e y o u a u t h o r i s e d to b r i n g t h e

a p p lic a ti o n o n b e h a l f o f t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:

H e t e ll s y o u t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 3

o f t h e a ff id a v i t.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l w h a t h e s a y s t h e r e i n 1 . 3 i s a ls o – r e a d s v e r y

s tr a n g e ly. I h a v e th e n e c e s s a r y l o c u s s t a n d i a n d a u t h o r it y t o d e p o s e t o
t h is a ff i d a v i t a n d t o la u n c h t h e p r e s e n t a p p l ic a t i o n . N o w i t d o e s n o t d o
w h a t is n o r m a l ly d o n e .

I b r in g th is a p p l i c a ti o n o n b e h a l f o f t h e S t a t e

S e c u r i ty A g e n c y a n d I a m d u ly a u t h o r i s e d b y r e a s o n o f b l a , b l a , b l a ,
b l a , b l a . S o w h e n y o u r e a d p a r t o f 1 . 3 i t i s l ik e h e is b r in g in g i t h i m s e l f
b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e i f th e a p p l ic a ti o n is b e i n g b r o u g h t b y th e S t a te
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y h is – h e d o e s n o t h a v e t o t a lk a b o u t h i s l o c u s s t a n d i .
N o h e t a lk s a b o u t h is l o c u s s t a n d i i f h e is b r i n g i n g i t h i m s e l f.
10

A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:

W e d o – w e d o a p p r e c i a t e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n

b u t w e d e a l t w i th i t – I t h i n k o n e o f t h e th i n g s w a s th e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts
w i t h i n w h ic h w e h a d t o b r in g t h e a p p l ic a ti o n . B u t a t t h e t i m e w h e n w e
d e c i d e d t o b r in g t h e a p p l ic a ti o n i n t h e a g e n c y ’s n a m e w a s b e c a u s e w e
t h o u g h t t h a t i t w o u l d b e b e s t b e c a u s e t h e a g e n c y – i t i s h is e m p l o y e r
a n d h e is r e q u e s te d t o a p p e a r b e fo r e y o u C h a ir p e r s o n b y v ir t u e o f h i m
being employed by the agency not him, himself.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s u n f o r tu n a te ly I c a n n o t t a lk a b o u t – w e c a n n o t t a lk
a b o u t w h a t h i s p o s i ti o n is i n t h e a g e n c y b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d r e v e a l …
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

H i s i d e n ti ty.

H is i d e n t i ty.

S o t h a t a ls o m a k e s i t tr ic k y b e c a u s e

w i t h o u t k n o w in g th a t i t c o u l d b e s o m e a d m in is tr a ti v e o ffic e r o r
s o m e b o d y n o t s o h i g h u p i n t h e a g e n c y w h o t h e n d e c i d e s I a m b r in g i n g
t h e a p p l ic a ti o n o r r a t h e r I a m – t h e – m y e m p l o y e r is g o in g t o b e th e
a p p lic a n t.

W h e r e a s i t i s t h e e m p lo y e r w h o m u s t d e c i d e w h e t h e r t h e y

a r e g o i n g to b e th e – th e a p p lic a n t i n th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a n d h e s a y s h e

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
h a s t h e a u t h o r i ty. I d o n o t t h in k h e s a y s h e a t t a c h e s a n y t h i n g .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
CHAIRPERSON:

No we do not do that.

Yo u k n o w v e r y o ft e n p e o p l e s a y I a m a u t h o r i s e d .

Sometimes you suspect they do not even know what that means. So I
a m n o t s u g g e s t in g h e d o e s n o t k n o w b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g h is is o n e o f
t h o s e a v e r m e n ts t h a t p e o p l e ju s t p u t i n s o e a s i ly i n a ffi d a v i ts .

I am

a u t h o r i s e d t o d o t h i s a n d th a t a n d t h a t , y o u k n o w. S o I a m – I a m ju s t
r a i s i n g t h e s e a s c o n c e r n s a t t h is s t a g e . I a m n o t s a y i n g t h a t t h e y a r e
n e c e s s a r i ly s ta n d i n g in t h e w a y b u t I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th e m , y o u
10

k n o w.

I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e p l a n is f o r h i m t o g i v e e v id e n c e

i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e a p p lic a ti o n o r h e c o u ld c o m e
la t e r.

B e c a u s e i t m a y b e t h a t y o u m i g h t n e e d t o j u s t r e c t if y s o m e

t h i n g s i n t h e a p p lic a ti o n . Is t h e – is t h e p la n t h a t h e w o u l d b e t h e n e x t
witness?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h a t w a s th e o r i g in a l p l a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t h i s e v id e n c e w o u l d b e r e c e iv e d fi r s t .

I

w i ll j u s t n e e d t o c o n f e r w i th M r M b ik i w a a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e is a n y t h i n g
lo s t in a r e v e r s a l o f t h e o r d e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o m e o f t h e p l a n n i n g o f t o d a y e n v is a g e d h is

e v i d e n c e f ir s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n th e m o v e to t h e s e c o n d w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H a v i n g s a i d th a t t h o u g h th e r e i s a f u r t h e r

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t t h a t I k n o w m y le a r n e d fr ie n d w a s g o i n g t o
h a n d u p to y o u to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e a l in g w i t h a t l e a s t t h e id e n t i fi c a t io n o f M r Y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t k n o w – h e w i ll m a k e s u b m is s io n s o n i t .
I t is n o t c l e a r t o m e th a t i t r e s o l v e s t h e c r i s p i s s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t y o u h a v e r a i s e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But maybe he m ust address that and we see

where we go.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c o u l d j u s t t a k e a m o m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

To j u s t c o n s i d e r w h e t h e r t h e r e c o u ld b e a

r e v e r s i o n o f t h e o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e c h a t t e d to m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d . W e – w e
a r e o f th e v ie w th a t w e c o u l d r e v e r s e th e o r d e r.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t i t is n o t e s s e n ti a l t h a t w e h a v e Mr X

b e f o r e M s D l a m i n i – M r Y – m y g o o d n e s s t h a t i s – I a m s o g la d m y
le a r n e d fr i e n d is d o in g Mr Y ’s e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e i t is le s s l ik e ly t h a t h e
w i ll m a k e t h is e r r o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e c o u l d c e r ta i n ly r e v e r s e t h e o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . Th a n k y o u . W e l l y o u s e e
y o u m ig h t h a v e t o c h o o s e w h e th e r y o u s ti c k t o b r i n g i n g t h e a p p l ic a ti o n
10

– y o u s ti c k t o th e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y b e i n g t h e a p p lic a n t o r w h e t h e r
y o u d e c id e t o c h a n g e a n d m a k e t h e w i t n e s s t h e a p p li c a n t .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

C h a ir …

C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u – i f y o u d e c id e t o c h a n g e th e n y o u c o u l d h a v e
M r Y a s t h e a p p li c a n t i n th e h e a d i n g .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Y.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n h e b r i n g s t h e a p p li c a t io n a s Mr Y.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:
20

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e i n d ic a te s – m i g h t – i n d ic a te s t h a t Y i s n o t h is
r e a l n a m e b u t i t i s fo r p u r p o s e s o f th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s . I t is i m p o r t a n t
t h a t h is id e n ti ty b e n o t d is c lo s e d .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e a s k s fo r l e a v e t h a t h e b e r e f e r r e d to in t h e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s a s M r Y.

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A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:

Ye s . N o w C h a i r p e r s o n I h a v e d i s c u s s e d t h is

w i t h m y i n s tr u c t in g a t t o r n e y.

W e h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n – w e h a v e n o

p r o b le m i n s u b s ti t u t i n g M r Y a s t h e a p p lic a n t a n d g i v e n n o w th e c h a n g e
in s e q u e n c e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s m a y t h a t – m a y w e t h e n s t a n d d o w n f o r
t h a t p u r p o s e s o t h a t w e c a n r e c t i fy t h e e r r o r in t h e m e a n t i m e w h i le M s
D l a m i n i g iv e s h e r e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a n o th a t is fi n e . W e w ill s ta n d t h e a p p li c a t io n
d o w n s o t h a t y o u c a n a t t e n d t o t h a t a n d t h e n a t a l a t e r s ta g e t h e n I c a n
d e a l w it h t h e a p p lic a ti o n .
10

A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h is a p p l ic a ti o n w il l s ta n d d o w n . O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d o n o t n e e d to d o a n y – to a d j o u r n n e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I d o n o t t h i n k s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d o n o t – j a . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e w i t n e s s i s p r e s e n t w it h u s i n th e r o o m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p r o v i d e d I j u s t g e t t h e r i g h t fi l e s i n fr o n t o f
m e w e w ill b e r e a d y t o g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r i f I m a y c a ll M s D l a m i n i t o t a k e u p h e r

p o s i ti o n i n th e w i t n e s s a r e a ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Yo u c a n a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r

a ffir m a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o k u n q o b a G lo r i a D la m i n i.

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R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I d o n o t h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n s .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M S D L A M I N I: S o h e l p m e G o d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y b e s e a te d . Ye s M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M s D la m i n i y o u h a v e in fr o n t
o f y o u a s o f t f il e a n d y o u w i ll s e e th a t i t is p a g in a t e d i n t h e t o p r ig h t
h a n d c o r n e r w i th r e d p a g in a ti o n n u m b e r s . T h o s e w il l b e t h e n u m b e r s I
w i ll b e r e f e r r in g t o t o d a y i n th e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v id e n c e .

C h a ir f o r

r e c o r d p u r p o s e s i f w e c o u ld e n t e r a s E x h i b i t D D 2 4 M s D la m i n i’s
a ffi d a v i t a n d a c c o m p a n y i n g a n n e x u r e s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms

Nokunqoba

G l o r ia

D la m i n i ’s

a ff id a v i t

and

a n n e x u r e s to t h a t a ffi d a v it w ill b e a d m i t te d a s E x h i b it D D 2 4 a n d w i ll b e
m a r k e d a c c o r d i n g ly.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir j u s t fo r t h e tr a n s c r i p t i o n p u r p o s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s D la m i n i ’s n a m e is s p e l t a s f o l lo w s : H e r fi r s t
n a m e N o k u n q o b a is N - o - k - u - n - q - o - b - a . S e c o n d n a m e G l o r ia , G - l - o - r - ia . A n d s u r n a m e D l a m i n i , D - l - a - m - i- n - i .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Page 10 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s D l a m i n i I w o u ld l ik e t o b e g in o n p a g e 1 o f
y o u r a ffi d a v i t i f w e m a y.

B e c a u s e y o u i n d ic a t e i n th e fi r s t l in e w h e r e

y o u a r e e m p l o y e d . W h e r e is t h a t ?
MS DLAMINI:

I a m e m p l o y e d b y S t a t e S e c u r it y A g e n c y b a s e d i n

P r e t o r i a H e a d O ffi c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s D l a m in i c a n I j u s t s u g g e s t t h a t
y o u b r in g t h e m i c r o p h o n e e v e n j u s t a b it c lo s e r. I t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e
– w e g e t y o u r t e s t i m o n y a s c le a r a s p o s s ib l e fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e
10

tr a n s c r ip t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k y o u r v o i c e is q u i te s o f t s o …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d o m a k e a n e ff o r t t o r a is e i t .
M S D L A M I N I: R a is e i t o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: I w i ll d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n w h a t p o s i ti o n a r e y o u e m p l o y e d t h e r e ?
M S D L A M I N I: I a m a n a n a ly s t a n d e v a l u a t o r.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e
agency?
MS DLAMINI:

I t m e a n s I i n t e r p r e t a n d a n a ly s e r e p o r t fr o m t h e

in f o r m a ti o n o b t a i n e d fr o m t h e v e t ti n g f i e l d w o r k .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a r e y o u r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s p a r ti c u la r ly d ir e c te d
t o v e t t in g e x e r c i s e s c o n d u c t e d b y th e a g e n c y ?

Page 11 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ve r y m u c h t h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And do you – do you have any other role

o u t s i d e o f v e t t in g ?
MS DLAMINI:

Ye s I h a v e b e e n a s s i g n e d a r o l e o f a P r o je c t M a n a g e r

w h e n th e v e tt i n g o f e x e c u t iv e s o f S A A w a s u n d e r t a k e n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t d o e s t h a t r o l e r e q u ir e o f y o u , t h e

P r o je c t M a n a g e r r o l e ?
M S D L A M I N I: Yo u m e a n i n te r ms o f t h e s k ill s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
10

M S D L A M I N I: O r t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e ll w h a t – w h a t r o le y o u p la y a s P r o je c t

Manager?
M S D L A M I N I:

O k a y.

A s t h e P r o j e c t M a n a g e r I w a s r e s p o n s i b le to

o u t li n e t h e p r o j e c t o v e r v i e w, d e f i n e t h e o b je c t iv e s o f t h a t p r o j e c t , m a k e
s u r e th a t w e a r e w i th i n t h e s c o p e a n d t h e n o u tli n e th e b u d g e t f o r th e
project.

T h e m il e s t o n e s , m a k e s u r e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f p e r s o n n e l

w i t h i n th e p r o j e c t – th e p r o j e c t te a m a r e c le a r ly d e f i n e d a n d a ls o t o
e n s u r e t h e c o m m u n ic a t i o n li n e s b e t w e e n u s a n d t h e c li e n t a r e c l e a r a n d
t h e n a ls o m a k e s u r e t h e r e is r e s o u r c e s a n d f a c il i ti e s fo r t h e t e a m .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H a v e y o u p l a y e d t h a t r o le o f P r o j e c t M a n a g e r

f o r v e t t in g p r e v i o u s ly – p r io r t o t h e S A A v e t ti n g o r s u b s e q u e n t ly ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I have been amongst the team who were on projects

w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n p r i o r to m y a p p o i n t m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t i s t h e a p p o i n t m e n t a s P r o j e c t M a n a g e r
o f t h e s p e c i fi c v e t t in g o p e r a ti o n a t S A A , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

Page 12 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d s i n c e t h e n h a v e y o u b e e n t h e P r o je c t

M a n a g e r o f a n y o t h e r v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n s ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h is w a s m y fi r s t a p p o in t m e n t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t h a v e y o u b e e n i n th a t
p o s i ti o n s in c e t h e n ?
MS DLAMINI:

Ye s , y e s .

I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e to m a n a g e t h e p r o j e c t o f

G o v e r n m e n t P r i n ti n g W o r k s a s w e l l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d i n t e r m s o f y o u r q u a l i fic a ti o n s
10

w h a t q u a l i fic a t io n s d o y o u h o ld ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I h a v e g o t a M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e i n P u b l ic A d m i n is tr a t i o n

fr o m th e U n i v e r s i t y o f P r e t o r ia , S e n i o r M a n a g e m e n t Pr o g r a m fr o m
U n iv e r s i ty o f P r e t o r i a .

I a ls o h o ld a P r o je c t M a n a g e m e n t – Pr a c t ic a l

P r o je c t M a n a g e m e n t c o u r s e fr o m U N I S A B u s i n e s s S c h o o l .

New

M a n a g e r s P r o g r a m f r o m W I T S a n d S e c u r it y A d v is in g C o u r s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

A n d w h e n d i d y o u jo i n t h e S t a t e

S e c u r i ty A g e n c y ?
M S D L A M I N I: I h a v e b e e n w i th t h e a g e n c y fo r t h e p a s t 1 6 y e a r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

A n d h a v e y o u a l w a y s b e e n i n v o lv e d in t h e

v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n s id e ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s , y e s v e r y m u c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

M s D l a m i n i y o u in d i c a t e a t th e

o u t s e t i n t h e f ir s t f e w p a g e s o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t th e r e q u e s t t h a t w a s
r e c e i v e d f r o m t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d y o u d e ta il th e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u
w e r e r e q u ir e d t o p r o v i d e . T h a t is in – b y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e n

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
y o u a c t u a l ly c o m m e n c e a t p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t t o p r o v i d e th a t
in f o r m a ti o n .

S o I w o u ld lik e to m o v e u s t h e r e i f w e m a y ?

Page 6 of

Exhibit DD24.
M S D L A M I N I: O n th e a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: P a g e 6 , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w il l s e e a t t h e b o tt o m t h e r e y o u h a v e a
h e a d i n g c a ll e d T h e Ve t ti n g o f S A A E x e c u ti v e s a n d S u p p o r t S t a ff .

Ms

D l a m i n i j u s t b e f o r e w e m o v e i n t o t h a t ju s t to o r ie n ta t e o u r s e lv e s i n t h e
10

e v i d e n c e . C h a ir y o u w il l r e c a l l th a t w h e n w e h a d th e p r e v io u s a v i a ti o n
s e s s i o n th e r e w a s s o m e e v i d e n c e r e c e iv e d a b o u t s e c u r it y v e t ti n g th a t
h a d b e e n c o n d u c t e d w i t h i n S A A . Yo u h e a r d e v id e n c e in tw o r e s p e c t s in
r e l a ti o n t o t h a t .

Th e r e w a s e v i d e n c e o f M s N h a n ts i w h o t o w a r d s th e

e n d o f h e r te s t i m o n y in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n a p a r t ic u l a r
in t e r a c ti o n th a t s h e h a d h a d w i t h M s My e n i a f t e r s o m e o f th e r e s u l ts o f
t h is v e t t in g e x e r c is e h a d b e e n m a d e k n o w n to M s M y e n i . I w i ll c o m e t o
t h a t i n t h e c o u r s e o f M s D l a m i n i ’s e v i d e n c e .

But the other respect in

w h ic h t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s a lr e a d y h e a r d a b o u t t h is v e t t in g w a s i n t h e
e v i d e n c e o f M s T h u li M p s h e .
20

B e c a u s e s h e g a v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t th e

concerns that had been expressed by ma nagement of SAA at the time
t h a t th is v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n to o k p l a c e . A n d s o t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n s u b s e q u e n t t o th a t e v id e n c e h a s b e e n to e n g a g e th e S t a te
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y a n d o b t a in m o r e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t h o w t h a t v e t t in g
o p e r a ti o n c a m e a b o u t a n d w a s c o n d u c te d . A n d s o i t i s my i n t e n ti o n t o
d e a l w i th t h a t a s p e c t to d a y w i t h Ms D la m in i.

Page 14 of 190

Ms Dlamini you start at

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 6 a n d y o u e x p l a in fir s t o f a l l h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t
t h is v e tt i n g o p e r a ti o n w a s c o n d u c t e d a t S A A .

Can you please tell us

a b o u t t h a t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s t h e r e w e r e e n g a g e m e n t s b e t w e e n th e t w o M in is t e r s ,
f o r m e r M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e , H o n o u r a b l e N e n e a n d o u r f o r m e r M i n is t e r,
H o n o u r a b le M a h l o b o .

I w a s n o t p r iv y o f t h o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s o r

m e e ti n g s b u t t h e y a r e a t ta c h e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o th a t a s th e y e n g a g e
o n t h e n e e d a n d t h e d e c is i o n t h a t th e e x e c u tiv e s o f S A A m u s t b e
v e t te d .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w o u l d li k e t o g o t o t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e

b e c a u s e a s y o u in d ic a t e y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d it t o y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d y o u
w i ll fi n d t h e f ir s t le t t e r a t p a g e 1 7 , 1 7 o f D D 2 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 7 C h a ir, 1 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 7 o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e t h a t p a g e ? 1 7 .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s t h i s d o c u m e n t?
MS DLAMINI:
20

I t h i n k t h is is t h e l e t t e r fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r o f S t a t e

S e c u r i ty th e n H o n o u r a b l e M a h l o b o t o M r – t o M i n is te r N e n e a t a ti m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

M a h l o b o i s s p e l t M- a - h - l- o - b - o .

A n d j u s t fo r t h e tr a n s c r i b e r s

That is Mr David Mahlobo who was

t h e n th e M i n is t e r o f S t a t e S e c u r i ty, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w t h is l e t t e r d i d y o u s e e it a t t h e ti m e th a t i t

Page 15 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
was prepared?
M S D L A M I N I: N o , n o , n o . I d i d n o t s e e i t a t t h e t i m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id y o u s e e i t b e f o r e y o u c o m m e n c e d t h e

v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n ?
MS DLAMINI:

N o I s a w th e le t t e r t h a t w a s a tt a c h e d to t h e l is t o f

o ffic i a ls a n d e x e c u ti v e s t h a t w e r e t o u n d e r g o t h e v e t ti n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y w e w i ll c o m e t o t h a t le t t e r i n a m o m e n t .

Let us just deal with the letter at 18.

W h a t i s t h e d a te o f t h e le t t e r

according to the second page?
10

M S D L A M I N I: W h e r e a r e y o u n o w ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m o n p a g e 1 8 o f E x h ib i t D D 2 4 .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h i s th e s e c o n d p a g e o f t h e le t t e r w e a r e
lo o k in g a t . A n d I w a s a s k i n g w h a t d a te is i n d ic a te d o n t h a t p a g e ?
M S D L A M I N I: 1 3 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u i n d i c a t e d t h a t i t w a s a l e t t e r w r it t e n b y
M i n is t e r M a h l o b o – f o r m e r M i n is t e r M a h lo b o t o fo r m e r M i n is te r N e n e , i s
that correct?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o s a y y o u d id n o t s e e

t h is a t a n y s t a g e b e f o r e y o u c o n d u c te d t h e v e t ti n g o p e r a ti o n , is t h a t
r ig h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: I g o t to s e e th e l e t te r t h a t w a s a t t a c h e d t o t h e l is t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s s o le t u s j u s t b e c le a r. T h i s le t t e r d id y o u
s e e i t a t t h e ti m e ?

Page 16 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o .
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d y o u fir s t s e e t h is l e t te r ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s I g o t a w a r e o f t h e l e t te r b u t I c a n n o t h a v e t h e e x a c t
date.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t w a s i t a t s o m e p o i n t d u r in g t h e v e t t in g

o p e r a ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id y o u r e a d t h e le t t e r w h e n y o u c a m e t o b e

a w a r e o f i t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s , y e s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P l e a s e c o u ld y o u in d i c a t e w h a t is s t a t e d i n t h e
le t t e r a t p a r a g r a p h 2 ?
M S D L A M I N I:
“ I t h a s c o m e t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y
A g e n c y t h a t t h e r e is a n u r g e n t n e e d fo r v e t ti n g a n d
r e - v e t ti n g o f s t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s g i v i n g s e n s it iv e
in f o r m a ti o n r e c e iv e d o n a n o n g o i n g b a s is . ”
20

A n d I t h i n k t h a t is t h e p a r t t h a t w a s a l s o in d i c a t e d o n th e l e t te r w h e r e
t h e lis t o f e x e c u ti v e s a n d s u p p o r t s ta ff t h a t I r e c e iv e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w i ll g o t o th a t le t t e r i n a m o m e n t . A n d – s o
t h a t is p a r a g r a p h 2 o f M i n is t e r M a h lo b o ’s l e tt e r t o M i n is t e r N e n e . W h a t
d o e s M i n i s te r M a h lo b o r e c o r d in p a r a g r a p h 3 ?
MS DLAMINI:

H e is in d ic a t i n g t h e n e e d to v e t t h e o ffi c i a l s a t S O E

Page 17 of 190

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b e c a u s e o f t h e h u g e i m p a c t t h a t t h e – o k a y le t m e s t a r t a g a i n . H e i s –
“ S O E ’s a s g o v e r n m e n t e n ti ti e s h a v e a h u g e i m p a c t
on

the

economy

of

the

c o u n tr y

and

th e r e fo r e

e x tr e m e l y i m p o r ta n t f o r s ta t e s e c u r i ty t o c o n d u c t
v e t ti n g a s p e r th e m a n d a t e o f S S A . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y l e t u s r e a d w h a t h e p r e c is e ly s a y s t h a t

m a n d a t e i s . I f y o u c o u l d r e a d fr o m t h e th i r d li n e . A s I h a v e i t i t s t a r ts
“ a s p e r ” w il l y o u r e a d fr o m “ a s p e r s e c ti o n 1 ” ?
M S D L A M I N I:
“As

10

per

S e c t io n

1

of

th e

National

S t r a t e g ic

I n t e lli g e n c e Ac t 3 9 o f 1 9 9 4 a s a m e n d e d b y A c t 6 7 o f
2 0 0 2 s t a te s th a t t h e N a ti o n a l I n te ll ig e n c e A g e n c y h a s
t h e m a n d a t e t o v e t a l l o t h e r N a t io n a l , Pr o v in c i a l a n d
Local

Government

D e p a r t m e n ts ,

P a r a s t a ta ls

and

t h e ir s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u k n o w t h e Pr o v is io n s o f t h e N a ti o n a l

S tr a t e g ic I n t e lli g e n c e A c t t h a t d e a l w i t h v e t ti n g ?
M S D L A M I N I: I a m – c o m e a g a i n ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

D o y o u k n o w t h e Pr o v is io n s o f t h e N a ti o n a l

S tr a t e g ic I n t e lli g e n c e A c t t h a t d e a l w i t h v e t ti n g ?
MS DLAMINI:

I a m a w a r e t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h e s tr a te g i c o b je c t iv e s o f

c o u n t e r in t e l li g e n c e i t is t h e m a i n o b je c t iv e is t o e n s u r e t h a t c o r r u p ti o n
in s t a te o w n e d e n ti t ie s is r e d u c e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A r e y o u f a m il ia r w i t h th e P r o v i s i o n s o f t h i s

A c t?

Page 18 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s . I d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e ? O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

I t s ta t e s t h a t v e t ti n g s h o u ld b e c o n d u c te d t o

p e r s o n s w h o a r e e m p l o y e d b y t h e S t a t e o r w h o a r e t o r e n d e r s e r v ic e s
t o t h e S t a te a n d h a v e a c c e s s t o c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a t io n o r th e N a ti o n a l
Key Points.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

D o e s th e - d o e s S e c t io n 1 o f t h e A c t - a s

M i n is t e r M a h l o b o r e c o r d s h e r e - s a y w h a t is i n q u o t a ti o n s i n p a r a g r a p h
3?
M S D L A M I N I: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Yo u w i ll s e e M s D l a m in i a t

p a r a g r a p h 3 M in is t e r M a h l o b o i n d i c a t e s t h a t S e c ti o n 1 …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e N a ti o n a l S tr a te g i c In t e l li g e n c e A c t s t a te s
that:

and then there is a quotation.

O n t h e fa c e o f th e p a r a g r a p h i t

a p p e a r s to b e a q u o t a ti o n fr o m S e c ti o n 1 o f t h e N a ti o n a l S t r a t e g ic
20

I n t e lli g e n c e A c t . D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p a r a g r a p h i n th e s a m e w a y a s
I do?
M S D L A M I N I: ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pl e a s e s a y y e s . T h e n o d is n o t r e c o r d e d .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u a n d I a m a s k i n g y o u is t h a t w h a t

Page 19 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
S e c t io n 1 o f th a t Ac t s a y s ?
M S D L A M I N I: I t - i t - o n t h is p a r a g r a p h …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I:

I t is n o t c l e a r l y s t a te d t h a t t h e s e e m p l o y e e s a r e

e m p l o y e d b y t h e S ta t e - b y - b y S O E s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms D la m i n i . J u s t l is t e n t o t h e q u e s ti o n c a r e f u l ly …
M S D L A M I N I: O k a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a n s w e r ju s t t h e q u e s ti o n . T h e q u e s ti o n is d o e s
S e c t io n 1 o f t h i s Ac t s a y w h a t M r M a h l o b o q u o t e d h e r e . D o y o u k n o w ?
I know that …
M S D L A M I N I: I th i n k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e c ti o n 1 u s e d t o b e t h e d e f in i ti o n s e c ti o n …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of an Act.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s t il l is u n f o r t u n a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t s o m e o f th e d e f i n i ti o n s n o w a r e a t t h e e n d o f

20

t h e A c t . S o d o - d o - a r e y o u a b l e to s a y w h e t h e r h e h a s g o t i t r i g h t?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d n o t g e t i t r ig h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d a n y o n e p ic k t h a t u p ? T h a t h e w a s q u o ti n g

Page 20 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
a S e c ti o n 1 o f t h e A c t t h a t d o e s n o t r e a d l i k e th a t .
M S D L A M I N I: I d i d n o t p ic k i t u p .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: I h a v e t o b e h o n e s t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a n y o n e e ls e p i c k i t u p ?
M S D L A M I N I: I a m n o t a w a r e . I a m n o t a w a r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t w o u l d b e in t e r e s t in g t o k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e is
a n y s e c ti o n i n t h e A c t t h a t s a y s t h a t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is n o t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . A l a s . I t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h a t w o u l d b e v e r y i n te r e s t in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I t is i n te r e s t i n g . I t is p a r t o f w h a t I in t e n d
t o p r o b e w i t h M s D la m i n i t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h a t i s q u o t e d y o u c o n f ir m is n o t w h a t

S e c t io n 1 s a y s o f t h e Ac t a n d l e t m e a s k y o u . Ar e y o u a w a r e o f a n y
s e c t io n o f th e A c t t h a t r e a d s w it h th e w o r d s i n t h e q u o t a ti o n s r e f e r r e d
20

to in paragraph 3?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . I a m n o t a w a r e . I a m a w a r e t h a t it is S e c t io n 2 A .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d i t i s . Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: I t is S e c ti o n 2 A t h a t c o v e r s …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: T h e m a n d a t e …

Page 21 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: To v e t t h e e m p lo y e e s o f t h e S t a te O w n e d E n ti t ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t d o e s n o t s a y w h a t h e h a s q u o te d h e r e ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . I t d o e s n o t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e w h a t is q u o te d h e r e I w a n t t o
s u g g e s t to y o u i s f a r b r o a d e r t h a n w h a t S e c ti o n 2 A o f t h e A c t a c tu a l ly
says.
10

W h a t is q u o t e d h e r e is t h a t a s e c t io n o f t h e N a ti o n a l S tr a te g i c

I n t e lli g e n c e A c t s ta t e s t h a t q u o t e :
“ T h e N a t i o n a l I n t e ll ig e n c e A g e n c y ( “ N I A ”) - h a s t h e
m a n d a t e t o v e t a ll o t h e r N a ti o n a l / Pr o v i n c i a l a n d
L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n ts , p a r a s t a t a l s o r th e i r
s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s . ”
Do you see that?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I d o . Ye s . I s e e th a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u k n o w w h a t S e c ti o n 2 A p r o v i d e s .

Do

y o u n o t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I t is - i t i s q u i t e s p e c i f ic …
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: To s a y i t i s - i t is th e in d i v id u a l s w h o a r e e m p l o y e d b y
t h e S t a t e o r t h o s e t h a t a r e t o r e n d e r s e r v ic e t o th e S t a t e a n d h a v e
a c c e s s t o N a t io n a l K e y P o i n t s o r c l a s s i fi e d i n f o r m a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s g o to th e s e c ti o n t o w h ic h y o u r e f e r.

C h a ir, f o r t h a t p u r p o s e y o u w il l n e e d th e l e g is l a ti o n b u n d le .

Page 22 of 190

I trust

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M s D l a m in i h a s a c o p y o f t h e l e g is l a ti o n b u n d l e .

I f n o t c o u ld I j u s t

r e q u e s t t h a t o n e b e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o h e r ?
M S D L A M I N I: I d o h a v e a p a r t o n t h e l e g i s la t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t i s fi n e , b u t I w o u l d li k e u s t o b e o n - o n

t h e s a m e p a g e i n t h e b u n d l e t h a t I w i ll b e r e fe r r i n g t o . S o w e w il l ju s t
m a k e a v a i la b le t o y o u th e l e g i s l a ti o n b u n d l e a n d y o u w i ll t u r n u p p a g e
3-6-1.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l s o m e b o d y m u s t ju s t g o a n d c h e c k …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r i t is a m o n g t h e f il e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t m a y b e n e x t t o y o u t h e r e M s D l a m in i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te ll h e r w h a t is …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t - w h a t i s w r i t te n o n th e s p i n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O n t h e s i d e i t s h o u ld s a y “ l e g is la t io n ” .

Can

y o u j u s t c h e c k th e s p i n e ?
CHAIRPERSON: On the spine.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e s p in e . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n - o n th e s p i n e o u ts id e . O n t h e s p in e . D o e s i t s a y
20

le g i s l a ti o n o n - o n th e …
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
CHAIRPERSON: On the opposite side?
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no. At the back. Ja.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .

Page 23 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: Av i a ti o n L e g i s l a ti o n R e fe r e n c e B u n d le .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t is p r e c is e ly w h a t w e n e e d t o b e w o r k i n g

with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h a n d if y o u w ill t u r n u p p a g e
3-6-1.
M S D L A M I N I: 3 - 6 - 1 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e t h a t?
10

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s . I a m - I a m t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h a t is t h e fir s t p a g e o f th e N a t i o n a l

S tr a t e g ic I n te ll ig e n c e Ac t 3 9 o f 1 9 9 4 .

T h a t is t h e o n e w e h a v e b e e n

t a lk in g a b o u t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t M s D l a m in i ? Yo u w i ll n e e d to s a y y e s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s . T h a t is t h e o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o n o t n o d . Yo u …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . T h a t i s t h e o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t g i v e t h e a n s w e r …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So that it can be captured.
20

M S D L A M I N I: C a p t u r e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S D L A M I N I: O k a y. Ye s . T h a t i s t h e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I - I s e e M s H o f m e y r t h a t S e c ti o n 1 is t h e

d e f in i ti o n s e c ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

It is.

Ye s .

S o o n e is t h e d e fi n it i o n .

Page 24 of 190

So that

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
could not have been a correct reference in paragraph 3, but now we are
m o v i n g t o a s M s D la m i n i h a s p o i n te d o u t . T h e r e i s a s e c ti o n o f t h e A c t
d e a li n g w it h v e t ti n g . I t i s n o t S e c t io n 1 . I t is S e c ti o n 2 A a n d w h a t w e
a r e lo o k i n g a t n o w i s t h a t S e c t i o n 2 A d o e s n o t s a y w h a t is q u o te d i n
M i n is t e r M a h l o b o ’s p a r a g r a p h 3 .
S o l e t u s g o to 2 A . Yo u w i ll fi n d th a t a t p a g e 3 - 6 - 5 . D o y o u
s e e S e c ti o n 2 A t h e r e M s D l a m in i ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I s e e S e c t io n 2 A - c a p it a l A A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Thank you and could you read for us what

s u b s e c ti o n o n e o f th a t s e c ti o n p r o v i d e s ?
M S D L A M I N I: “ W h e n p e r f o r m in g a n y f u n c t io n r e f e r r e d to … ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I th in k w e a r e a t th e w r o n g . Yo u n e e d to
go a bit further down the page ….
M S D L A M I N I: O h . Ye s . Ye s . S o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To in b o l d 2 A a n d t h e n th e h e a d i n g i s “ Ve tt i n g
I n v e s ti g a t i o n s ” .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d y o u r e a d t h e r e s t o f t h a t s u b s e c ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: Yo u m e a n j u s t th e A - j u s t t h e A ?

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 A .
M S D L A M I N I: O k a y.
“ T h e r e l e v a n t m e m b e r o f th e N a t i o n a l I n t e ll i g e n c e
S tr u c t u r e m a y c o n d u c t a v e t ti n g i n v e s ti g a t io n i n t h e
prescribed
c o m p e te n c e

manner

to

d e te r mi n e

of a person if such

Page 25 of 190

the
a

s e c u r i ty
person

is

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
e m p l o y e d b y o r is a n a p p l ic a n t t o a n o r g a n o f S t a t e
o r i s r e n d e r in g a s e r v ic e o r h a s g iv e n n o t ic e o f
in t e n t io n t o r e n d e r a s e r v ic e t o a n o r g a n o f S t a t e
w h ic h s e r v ic e m a y g iv e h i m o r h e r a c c e s s to
c la s s if i e d

i n f o r m a ti o n

and

in t e l li g e n c e

in

possession of the organ of State or give him or her
a c c e s s t o a r e a s d e s i g n a t e d N a t io n a l K e y P o i n ts i n
t e r m s o f t h e N a ti o n a l K e y P o i n t A c t 1 9 9 0 A c t 1 0 2 o f
1980.”
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . D o y o u a g r e e t h a t th a t S e c t i o n 2 A
is

d i ff e r e n t

to

the

words

that

appear

in

paragraph

3

of

M i n is t e r M a h l o b o ’s l e t t e r ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e w il l l o o k a t t h e d e t a ils o f w h a t S e c ti o n 2 A

e n v is a g e s in a m o m e n t , b u t I w o u ld l ik e t o ju s t fi n i s h w i th th e l e t t e r o f
M i n is t e r M a h l o b o - if w e m a y. S o i f y o u w i ll g o b a c k t o D D 2 4 a n d t h a t
is th e e x h i b i t c o n ta i n i n g y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d t u r n to p a g e 1 8 , b e c a u s e
t h a t is t h e s e c o n d p a g e o f M i n is t e r M a h l o b o ’s l e t t e r ?
paragraph 4 there?
20

Can we go to

Could you read into the record what paragraph 4

says?
M S D L A M I N I:

“ T h is

should

be

understood

fr o m

the

b a c k g r o u n d o f c h a l l e n g e s a ff e c ti n g m o s t o f t h e
S t a te O w n e d E n t it i e s . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k it s a y s c o m p a n ie s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: C o m p a n ie s . Ye s .

Page 26 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d p a r a g r a p h 6 .
M S D L A M I N I:

“ T h e C h a ir p e r s o n ( S A A ) w i ll b e r e q u ir e d t o

p r o v i d e a l is t o f a l l E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t a n d
s u p p o r t s t a ff . ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Right.

u n d e r s t a n d in g

th is

of

what

Ms Dlamini,

le t t e r

was

can

s e e k in g

I
to

get

your

convey

to

M i n is t e r N e n e , b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e it i s b e c a u s e o f
t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n t h e t w o M in i s t e r s . T h a t y o u w e r e c h a r g e d
w i t h u n d e r t a k i n g t h e v e t ti n g o p e r a t i o n . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
10

M S D L A M I N I: A s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e I d i d n o t s e e t h is l e tt e r p r i o r
t o m y r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I th o u g h t y o u h a d n o t s e e n i t p r i o r t o i t s t a r t in g
…
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But

you

saw

it

in

the

course

of

th e

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s .
M S D L A M I N I: I n t h e c o u r s e o f th e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u r a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e th is C o m m i s s i o n s a y s
t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e v e tt in g u n d e r t a k in g a t S A A a t a ll
is b e c a u s e M i n is t e r M a h l o b o e n g a g e d w i t h M i n is t e r N e n e a b o u t i t.

Is

that correct?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s e v i d e n c e o f t h a t y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d t h is

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
le t t e r t o y o u r e v i d e n c e . C o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s a n d t h e l e t t e r t h a t I s a w fi r s t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l d e a l w i t h t h a t in a m o m e n t …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h i s c o m e s f ir s t i n t h e c h r o n o l o g y. S o
w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g b a s e d o n t h is l e t t e r a t t h e ti m e o r in
t e r m s o f b r i e fi n g s t h a t y o u w e r e g i v e n a s to w h y v e tt i n g n e e d e d t o b e
undertaken at SAA?
M S D L A M I N I:
10

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s th a t t h e E x e c u ti v e s o f S A A a r e

e m p l o y e d b y a S t a te O w n e d E n t i ty a n d i n t e r m s o f o u r m a n d a t e th e y
h a v e t o b e v e t te d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o - w h o c o n v e y e d t h a t t o y o u o r w a s th a t
your understanding?
M S D L A M I N I: I - w e - I e n g a g e d w i th m y E x e c u t iv e B o s s a t t h e ti m e …
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w a s t h a t?
M S D L A M I N I: G e n e r a l D l o d lo . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n I ju s t b e c le a r. W h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d
w a s b e c a u s e t h e s e m a n a g e m e n t p e r s o n s a n d t h e ir s u p p o r t s t a ff w e r e

20

e m p l o y e d a t a S ta t e O w n e d C o m p a n y.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e y w e r e r e q u ir e d t o b e s e c u r i ty v e t t e d .

Is

that correct?
M S D L A M I N I:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e w o r k in g fo r a S t a t e

O w n e d E n ti ty in t e r m s o f t h e la w …

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: A n d i n t e r m s o f o u r m a n d a t e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Is th a t t h e o n ly r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t t h e y ju s t

n e e d e d to b e e m p lo y e d t h e r e a n d t h e n th e y n e e d e d t o b e s u b j e c t e d t o
s e c u r i ty v e tt i n g ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I n t e r ms o f S e c ti o n 2 A t h a t is o n e o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s

a n d i f th e y h a v e - a c c e s s t o c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a ti o n o r th e y h a v e a c c e s s
t o a N a t io n a l K e y P o i n t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
10

M S D L A M I N I:

B u t I w o u ld g o w i th th e fi r s t o n e w h e r e i t s a y s :

e m p l o y e d b y a S t a te O w n e d E n t it y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o is - is th e f a c t th a t t h e y a r e e m p lo y e d

e n o u g h t o tr i g g e r t h e n e e d fo r s e c u r i ty v e t t in g ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ve r y m u c h s o . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y t h a t t h e y i n a d d i t io n t o

b e i n g e m p l o y e d h a v e a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n fo r m a t i o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: I t - i t c o u l d b e , b u t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t is n o t r e q u ir e d ?
M S D L A M I N I:
20

I t - i t i s r e q u ir e d , b u t b e i n g e m p l o y e d b y a s t a te

in s t i tu t io n o n it s o w n i t is e n o u g h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h e n M in is t e r M a h l o b o m o ti v a t e s fo r t h is

v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n in h i s l e tt e r t o M in is t e r N e n e .

Yo u w il l s e e t h a t a t

p a r a g r a p h 2 h e s e e m s t o p la c e s o m e e m p h a s is o n th e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t

Page 29 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
these people who are going to be vetted have access to, because you
w i ll s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 h e s a y s :
“ I t h a s c o m e to t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y
A g e n c y t h a t t h e r e is a n u r g e n t n e e d fo r v e tt i n g a n d
r e v e t ti n g o f s t a t e o w n e d e n te r p r is e s g iv e n s e n s it iv e
in f o r m a ti o n r e c e iv e d o n a n o n g o i n g b a s is . ”
Do you see that?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I d o s e e t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u d i ff e r fr o m h i m i n s o f a r a s y o u r e g a r d i t
10

o n ly b e in g n e c e s s a r y th a t th e p e r s o n v e tt e d is e m p l o y e d b y th e S t a te
O w n e d E n ti ty ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I d o n o t r e g a r d i t a s t h e o n ly r e q u ir e m e n t , b u t I a m

s a y in g b y v ir t u e o f b e i n g e m p l o y e d y o u h a v e to b e v e t te d b y a e m p l o y e d i n a S t a t e O w n e d E n ti ty.

A ls o i f y o u h a v e g o t a c c e s s to

c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n . S o I d o a g r e e w i t h h i m t o a c e r t a in e x t e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t n o t - s o i f h e w e r e t o s a y, n o . Yo u h a v e t o
h a v e a c c e s s to c la s s i f ie d i n fo r m a t i o n to b e v e t t e d . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to
s a y y o u w o u l d d is a g r e e , b e c a u s e t h e m e r e f a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t is
s u ffi c i e n t . Is t h a t r ig h t?
20

M S D L A M I N I: N o . T h a t is n o t r i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s y o u r e v id e n c e ?
M S D L A M I N I: I a m s a y i n g y o u h a v e t o b e e m p l o y e d a s p e r S e c ti o n 2 A
a s i t s t a te s t h a t i f y o u a r e e m p lo y e d b y a - a n o r g a n o f S t a t e y o u h a v e
to be vetted.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Yo u - y o u …

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is t h e f ir s t p a r t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d p a r t s t a t e s t h a t if y o u h a v e g o t
a c c e s s to c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a ti o n o r a c c e s s t o a N a t io n a l K e y P o in t y o u
h a v e t o b e v e t te d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I t i s q u i te i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e j u s t g e t t h i s
c le a r, b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u e a r li e r t o s a y t h e - o n i t s o w n t h e f a c t
t h a t y o u a r e e m p lo y e d b y a n o r g a n o f S t a t e s u c h a s a S ta t e O w n e d
C o m p a n y is e n o u g h to r e q u ir e y o u t o b e s e c u r i ty v e t te d .
10

Is that

correct?
M S D L A M I N I:

I t - i t c o u l d b e a c o m b i n a ti o n o f t h e t w o .

Yo u c a n b e

e m p l o y e d a n d n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n fo r m a t i o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w o u l d s ti ll n e e d t o b e v e t te d ?
M S D L A M I N I: A n d y o u s t il l n e e d t o b e v e tt e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e s e e i f I c a n a s s i s t . Ms D l a m i n i …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is a d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n s o m e th i n g t h a t m u s t b e
20

done.

Yo u s a y t h a t t h in g is c o m p u ls o r y a n d a s it u a ti o n w h e r e

something

does

not have

to

be

done, but maybe

done.

Yo u

understand?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is c o m p u ls o r y t h a t w h e n y o u c o m e

Commission you be dressed …

Page 31 of 190

to

th e

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t is n o t c o m p u ls o r y t h a t y o u p u t o n y o u r b e s t

d r e s s . O k a y, b u t i f y o u li k e y o u c a n p u t o n y o u r b e s t d r e s s . O k a y. S o
n o w w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t i f s o m e b o d y is e m p lo y e d b y a - a n
o r g a n o f S t a t e s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g is c o m p u ls o r y …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d in g t h a t i f y o u a r e e m p lo y e d

b y a n o r g a n o f S t a t e . I t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y u n d e r c e r ta i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s
t h a t y o u b e s u b j e c t e d to s e c u r it y v e t t in g , b u t i t i s n o t c o m p u l s o r y.
10

W h i c h o f t h e tw o a r e y o u s a y in g w a s …
M S D L A M I N I: I a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

C h a ir p e r s o n , I a m s a y i n g i f y o u a r e e m p l o y e d b y

a n o r g a n o f S t a t e y o u s h o u l d b e v e t te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is c o m p u ls o r y ?
M S D L A M I N I: I t is c o m p u ls o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o e s t h a t m e a n a ll t h e m il li o n s th a t a r e e m p l o y e d
b y G o v e r n m e n t m u s t a ll b e v e t te d a n d th e y w o u l d a l l h a v e b e e n v e t t e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:
v a r io u s

Ir r e s p e c ti v e o f y o u r p o s it io n ?

Government

D e p a r t m e n ts .

They

T h e c l e a n i n g s ta ff in
also

have

u n d e r s t a n d in g th e y m u s t b e s u b j e c te d t o s e c u r i t y v e t t in g .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

Page 32 of 190

on

your

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON: That has always been your understanding?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

I am indebted.

I have

h i g h l ig h te d t h a t M i n is t e r M a h l o b o - a n d I a c c e p t M s D l a mi n i i t is
M i n is t e r M a h l o b o ’s l e t t e r. I t i s n o t y o u r le t t e r …
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M i n i s te r M a h lo b o s e e m s in t h e le t t e r t o p a y
s o m e e m p h a s is o n t h e fa c t t h a t t h e s e p e r s o n s w h o a r e g o in g t o b e
10

v e t te d h a v e a c c e s s t o s e n s it iv e i n fo r m a ti o n . D o y o u s e e t h a t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I s e e th a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o p r o b e t h a t a l i t tl e b i t

w i t h y o u . W h a t i s t h e a g e n c y ’s u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h a t li n k b e tw e e n t h e
e m p l o y e e s a n d s e n s i ti v e i n f o r m a ti o n ?

M u s t i t b e th e c a s e t h a t t h e

e m p l o y e e s h a v e a c c e s s t o s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n t o b e v e t t e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: C a n y o u c o m e a g a i n p l e a s e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Is i t a r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t a n e m p l o y e e w h o is

g o i n g t o b e v e t t e d m u s t h a v e a c c e s s to s e n s i ti v e i n fo r m a t i o n o r is t h a t
not a requirement?
20

M S D L A M I N I:

I f w e lo o k a t t h e l a w i t - i t s t a te s th a t i f y o u a r e

employed by the State you have to be vetted and at least - or if you are
r e n d e r in g a s e r v ic e to a S t a t e O r g a n i s a t io n a n d y o u - y o u h a v e a c c e s s
t o c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a t i o n . Yo u h a v e t o b e v e tt e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u a d d t h e r e q u ir e m e n t o f a c c e s s t o

c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n fo r t h o s e w h o a r e r e n d i n g s e r v ic e s . Is th a t r i g h t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I

understand

that

d is t in c ti o n .

Is

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t y o u d e s c r i b e n o w c o m m o n ly t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g
a m o n g s t t h e p e o p l e i n t h e Ve t t in g D iv is i o n o f t h e S ta t e S e c u r i t y
Agency?
M S D L A M I N I: L e t m e n o t t a l k f o r t h e r e s t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y.
10

M S D L A M I N I: O f t h e p e o p l e . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . T h a t i s f i n e .
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o - d o y o u h a v e b r i e fi n g s a b o u t t h i s ? D o y o u
…?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s . W e d o . Ye s . W e d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I - I f u l ly a p p r e c ia t e th a t m a n y o f y o u m a y
n o t b e la w y e r s , b u t a t s o m e p o i n t h a s t h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t y o u
d e s c r ib e to d a y b e i n g d i s c u s s e d a m o n g s t c o l le a g u e s a n d u n d e r s t o o d ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ve r y m u c h . Ve r y m u c h . Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

I w o u l d t h e n li k e t o b a c k - i f w e

m a y - t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t p a g e 6 a n d y o u c a n a c t u a ll y t u r n o v e r t h e
p a g e t o p a g e 7 , b e c a u s e w e a r e n o w g o i n g t o d e a l w i th w h a t y o u r
a ffi d a v i t s a y s a b o u t t h e e x c h a n g e s b e t w e e n M in is t e r M a h l o b o a n d
M i n is t e r N e n e a n d w h a t f o l l o w e d .
A t p a r a g r a p h 3 .2 y o u d e a l w i t h w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
e x c h a n g e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . C a n y o u te ll u s w h a t t h a t w a s ?
M S D L A M I N I: 3 .2 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
M S D L A M I N I:

A f t e r t h e e x c h a n g e s t h e n t h e lis t w a s f o r w a r d e d to o u r

M i n is tr y a t t h e t i m e - H o n o u r a b l e M a h l o b o - a n d t h e n it h a d to b e
d ir e c t e d t o th e r e l e v a n t s t r u c tu r e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: Fr o m h is o ff ic e . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

L e t u s j u s t b e c l e a r.

W h a t w a s t h e l is t a l is t

o f?
M S D L A M I N I:

I t w a s t h e l is t - it w a s a s w e r e c e iv e d it .

It said

E x e c u t iv e a n d s u p p o r t s ta ff .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o c o m p il e d t h a t l is t ?
M S D L A M I N I: I w a s n o t t h e r e w h e n t h e l is t w a s c o m p il e d , b u t w h e n t h e
- w e r e c e iv e d t h e li s t i t w a s w r i t t e n E x e c u ti v e a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o s e n t t h e l is t t h r o u g h ?
M S D L A M I N I: I r e c e i v e d i t f r o m m y Ex e c u ti v e a n d t h e n it w a s fr o m o u r
M i n is tr y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

R i g h t . L e t u s g o t o th o s e l e tt e r s - i f w e m a y.

Yo u w i ll fi n d t h e f ir s t o n e a t p a g e 1 9 o f E X H I B I T D D 2 4 .
M S D L A M I N I: P a g e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 9 - 1 - 9 .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t is th is le t t e r ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h i s i s t h e l e t t e r t h a t f o r m e r M i n i s t e r N e n e w r o te t o o u r

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f o r m e r H o n o u r a b le M a h l o b o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d a t e is i n d ic a te d a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e
le t t e r ?
M S D L A M I N I: I th i n k i t i s 2 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i t a p p e a r s t o b e - a s y o u d e s c r ib e - a

r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e tt e r w e w e r e j u s t l o o k i n g a t .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D a t e d 1 3 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u s e e i n th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h t h a t

M i n is t e r N e n e q u o t e s th e s a m e S e c t io n o f t h e A c t t h a t M i n is t e r M a h l o b o
quoted?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e N a ti o n a l S tr a t e g ic In t e l li g e n c e Ac t 3 9 o f 1 9 9 4 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

He

q u o te s

it

in

the

same

terms

th a t

M i n is t e r M a h l o b o q u o t e d i t . D id h e n o t?
20

M S D L A M I N I:

H e q u o t e s i t i n t h e te r m s o f s a y in g t h e s e E x e c u ti v e s

h a v e a c c e s s to s e n s it iv e i n fo r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a n t e d t o s a y M s H o f m e y r m a y b e th e y p u r p o r t t o …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Quote it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t is f a r m o r e a c c u r a t e C h a ir.

Page 36 of 190

Far more

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
a c c u r a te . L e t m e u s e t h a t e x a c t d e s c r i p ti o n . I n th e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e
o f t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h M s D l a m in i .

W h a t M i n is t e r N e n e a p p e a r s t o

d o t h e r e is t o p u r p o r t t o q u o t e th e S e c t io n 1 o f th e N a t io n a l S t r a t e g ic
I n t e lli g e n c e A c t a n d h e p u r p o r t s to q u o t e it in t h e v e r y s a m e l a n g u a g e
t h a t M i n is t e r M a h l o b o q u o t e d i t . D o e s h e n o t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e s o l v e d is n o t w h a t
the Act says. Does it?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t w e h a v e r e s o l v e d . Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d i t g o e s o n a t p a r a g r a p h 3 t o t a lk a b o u t
t w o s e p a r a t e l e t t e r s d a t e d t h e 2 n d a n d 5 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 fr o m t h e S A A
B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n M s D M y e n i w h ic h li s t s a l l E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t
a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff a s p e r y o u r r e q u e s t . D o y o u s e e t h a t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o is th is th e l e tt e r th a t y o u w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t
t o w h i c h t h e lis t s w e r e a t t a c h e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h i s is t h e le t t e r t h a t I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e r e t h e li s t
w a s a t t a c h e d . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s g o to t h a t li s t, b e c a u s e i t is p r e c e d e d

20

b y a l e t t e r o n t h e n e x t p a g e w h i c h is a t p a g e 2 0 …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

T h i s is th e l is t n o w o f t h e E x e c u t iv e s th a t w e r e to

u n d e r g o a v e tt i n g a s s e s s m e n t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t a n d th is i s th e l is t - a l e tt e r d a t e d

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
2 November 2015.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w y o u s e e in t h a t l e t te r t h e r e is a lis t o f

E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t M e m b e r s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e v e t t e d .

Is th a t

correct?
M S D L A M I N I: I t i s t h e l is t o f E x e c u t iv e M e m b e r s th a t a r e g o i n g t o b e
v e t te d . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h o w m a n y n a m e s a r e i n d ic a t e d t h e r e ?
M S D L A M I N I: O n th e fr o n t t o p p a r t i t is 1 3 n a m e s …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M S D L A M I N I:

A n d t h e n y o u w o u l d p r o c e e d w i t h th e w h o l e l is t o f

names.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t - w h y d o y o u s a y t h e w h o l e li s t o f n a m e s
p r o c e e d th is ?
M S D L A M I N I: I a m s a y in g b e c a u s e i t - i t s t a r ts fr o m t h is p a g e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: A n d t h e n t h e r e is t h e lis t t h a t c o n ti n u e s w h e n y o u l o o k
20

at 22, 23, 24, 25 m…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

see.

M S D L A M I N I: 2 6 , 2 7 , 2 8 , y e s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o j u s t s o w e u n d e r s t a n d t h e d o c u m e n t o n th e
s a m e te r ms .

W h a t I u n d e r s t a n d M s My e n i to b e s a y i n g a t p a g e 2 0 -

a n d c o r r e c t m e i f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a t t h e ti m e w a s d i ff e r e n t .

Page 38 of 190

Wa s

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
t h a t t h i s l e t te r w o u l d in c l u d e - I a m n o w a t p a r a g r a p h 1 .

S h e w r i te s

there:
“ I r e f e r t o t h e l e t te r fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r d a t e d
2 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 r e q u e s ti n g f o r a l is t o f a l l S A A
E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff .

T h e li s t

o f s u p p o r t s ta ff w i ll b e f o r w a r d e d t o t h e M in is te r o n
Wednesday 4 November 2015.”
She goes on.
“ T h e li s t o f E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t M e m b e r s is
g iv e n b e lo w. ”

10

A n d t h e n w e h a v e a li s t o f 1 3 n a m e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e th e r e is a

f u r th e r l e t t e r. W h o w r i te s t h a t l e t t e r ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I t is t h e l e t te r t h a t w a s w r it t e n t o f o r m e r M i n is te r N e n e

fr o m t h e f o r m e r C h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A - M s M y e n i .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h a t is d a te d 5 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 .

Is t h a t

correct?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is t h e - y e s . I t is - i t i s 5 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i n t h e s e c o n d li n e o f t h a t l e t te r s h e

in d i c a t e s - w e l l f ir s t o f a ll s h e r e fe r s t o t h e p r e v i o u s l e tt e r o n t h e 2 n d
a n d th e n s h e s a y s :
“ P l e a s e f in d a t t a c h e d a l is t w i th d e t a i ls o f a l l
E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e r s a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff. ”
A n d t h e n i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e is t h is t h e l is t t h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
to?
M S D L A M I N I: T h is i s t h e li s t t h a t I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u t a k e n o t e o f w h e t h e r t h e 1 3 n a m e s t h a t
h a d b e e n i n c l u d e d o n t h e f ir s t li s t o f - a s E x e c u tiv e M a n a g e r s w h o
w o u ld b e v e t t e d e n d e d u p b e in g in c r e a s e d in t h is m o r e le n g t h y li s t ?
M S D L A M I N I: I n c r e a s e d in w h a t s e n s e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M o r e t h a n 1 3 M a n a g e r s w e r e n o w g o i n g to b e

v e t te d p u r s u a n t t o t h e lis t c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e 2 2 .
M S D L A M I N I:
10

W h e n I r e c e i v e d th is i t w a s th e e n ti r e d o c u m e n t .

So I

w o u ld n o t s e p a r a t e th e 1 3 n a m e s to t h e r e s t o f t h e n a m e s . S o I - I d i d
not separate it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t th is l is t t h a t

c o m m e n c e s a t p a g in a t e d p a g e 2 2 to p a g i n a t e d p a g e 2 8 c o m p r is e d a l l
t h e p e o p l e th a t y o u n e e d e d t o c o n d u c t …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e c u r i ty v e t ti n g o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u g o t h r o u g h a n y p r o c e s s o f w o r k in g
o u t w h o o n t h is li s t w a s i n E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t p o s i t io n a n d w h o w a s
20

in s u p p o r t s t a ff p o s i ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I:

N o . N o t a t t h e t i m e , b u t a s s o o n t h e y w e r e s u b m i t ti n g

t h e f o r m s t h a t t h e y h a d f il le d . W e - I w a s a b l e t o - t o - t o m a k e t h a t
d is t in c ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t t h a t p o in t d i d y o u w o r k o u t w h e t h e r t h e
E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e r s w e r e c o n fi n e d t o t h e o r ig i n a l li s t o f 1 3 o r n o t ?

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: W h a t d o y o u m e a n ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e - t h e o r ig i n a l l is t th a t M s M y e n i p r o v i d e s

on 2 November …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d a lis t o f o n l y 1 3 M a n a g e r s …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e li s t t h a t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 2 2 e n d s u p
w i t h - I t h i n k - it is 11 8 p e o p l e …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o a r e g o i n g t o b e v e t t e d .
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u e s t a b li s h o n c e y o u h a d w o r k e d o u t

t h e ir p o s i ti o n s w h e th e r t h e o r ig in a l li s t o f 1 3 M a n a g e r s h a d in c r e a s e d
to include other Managers as well?
M S D L A M I N I: W h e n I l o o k e d a t th e l is t I l o o k e d a t i t i n t o t a l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I t h i n k t h e a n s w e r is n o . Yo u d i d n o t …
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o . J a . I lo o k e d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ta k e s t e p s …
M S D L A M I N I: A t i t in t o ta l .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M S D L A M I N I:

S o t h e fir s t 1 3 a n d t h e r e s t o f t h e n a m e s to m e i t w a s

ju s t a l is t o f t h e p e o p l e - th e o ffic i a ls t h a t h a d to b e v e t t e d a t th e ti m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d - a n d w h o s e d e c i s i o n w a s i t to v e t

E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff ?

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
MS DLAMINI:

I w a s n o t g iv e n r e a s o n s a n d I w a s n ’ t t h e r e w h e n th e t w o

m i n is t e r s w e r e e n g a g in g o n t h a t , s o I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w w h o s e d e c is i o n i t
was.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A lr i g h t , d id y o u c o n s i d e r a t a l l t h e q u e s t io n

w h e t h e r t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s o f S A A s h o u l d n o t a ls o b e s u b j e c t t o
s e c u r i ty v e tt i n g ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Not at the time no.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:
10

No.

No.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If I ask you now whether you think if the

E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff o f S A A a r e b e i n g s e c u r i ty
v e t te d t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s s h o u l d a ls o b e s e c u r it y v e t t e d , w h a t w o u l d
your answer be?
M S D L A M I N I:

M y a n s w e r w o u ld y e s , t h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e t o b e

v e t te d , b u t r e m e m b e r A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r th e B o a r d is v e t te d i n t e r m s o f
t h e ir c o n tr a c ts , d o t h e ir c o n tr a c t s c a t e r f o r t h a t o r i f it i s a r e q u e s t fr o m
the President.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:
20

Ac c o r d i n g t o t h e M I S S . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

S o r r y, j u s t e x p l a i n th a t to m e .

W h a t is M I S S ?

I t is M i n i m u m I n fo r m a ti o n S e c u r i ty S t a n d a r d , C h a p t e r 5

w e v e t t h e B o a r d i f th e r e is a r e q u e s t to v e t th e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t I t h o u g h t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e A c t

w a s t h a t a n y o n e e m p lo y e d b y a n O r g a n o f S t a te s h o u l d b e v e t te d .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

S o w h y a r e n ’ t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

O r r e n d e r in g a s e r v ic e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O r r e n d e r i n g a s e r v ic e , b u t l e t ’s l o o k a t th e –

t h o s e w h o a r e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

R e n d e r i n g a s e r v ic e i f t h e y a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a c c e s s

t o c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a t i o n .
M S D L A M I N I:

To c l a s s i fi e d i n f o r m a t i o n y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
access
10

to

A n d i t s e e m s t h a t if E x e c u ti v e s a r e g o i n g t o h a v e

e x e c u ti v e

–

t o c la s s i f ie d

i n fo r m a t i o n

d e fi n i t e l y

Board

M e m b e r s w o u l d a ls o h a v e a c c e s s .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o e v e n i f y o u d o n ’t s a y B o a r d M e m b e r s a r e

e m p l o y e e s b u t th e y a r e p e o p le w h o a r e r e n d e r in g a s e r v i c e a n d w il l
h a v e a c c e s s to c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a t i o n i f t h e E x e c u tiv e M a n a g e r s a ls o
have access.
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s . S o t h e y s h o u ld b e v e t t e d o n t h a t n o t e .

CHAIRPERSON:
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

S o ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h a t t h e o th e r i n s tr u m e n t i s t h a t

y o u r e f e r r e d t o o n t h e b a s i s o f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e A c t , S e c ti o n
2A.
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y s h o u ld h a v e b e e n v e t te d i f th e ir r e s p o n s ib il it i e s

r e q u ir e d t h e m t o h a v e a c c e s s to c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a ti o n .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s a n d c o n s i d e r i n g t h e S e c t io n 2 A .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y. H a s t h a t h e l p e d ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I n d e e d C h a ir, I a m in d e b t e d . D i d a n y o n e r a i s e

t h is w i t h th e r e s p e c t iv e m in is t e r s a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e r o ll in g o u t
y o u r v e tt i n g o p e r a ti o n i n S A A ?
M S D L A M I N I:

No.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

I d i d n ’ t t h i n k a b o u t i t a t t h e ti m e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:
10

D o y o u t h i n k t h a t o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n r a is e d ?

And as you sit here now today?

I w il l h a v e to t h i n k a b o u t i t .

CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I a m s o r r y, w h a t w o u l d y o u h a v e to th i n k a s

you sit there today?
M S D L A M I N I:

N o s h e is a s k i n g m e i f t h e M i n i s t e r s w e r e e n g a g e d i n

t e r m s o f t h e B o a r d h a v i n g to b e v e t te d , I a m s a y i n g n o o n e e n g a g e d
w i t h t h o s e m in is t e r s a t t h a t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o I t h o u g h t s h e a s k e d y o u th e q u e s t i o n

w h e t h e r a s y o u s i t th e r e n o w y o u w o u l d t h i n k t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s
s h o u l d a ls o h a v e b e e n v e t t e d , a n d I th o u g h t y o u h a d g iv e n a n a n s w e r
w h ic h w a s y e s .
M S D L A M I N I:
20

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

A s y o u s i t h e r e , b u t a t th a t t i m e y o u d id n ’ t t h in k

about it.
M S D L A M I N I:

N o a t th a t t i m e I d id n ’t t h i n k a b o u t i t .

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay but the answer you gave her was not the same,

M s H o f m e y r d id I m is u n d e r s t a n d s o m e t h i n g ?

Page 44 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o n o t a t a ll . S o w e h a v e c la r i fi e d n o w a s I

u n d e r s t a n d i t, j u s t to b e c l e a r o n y o u r e v id e n c e M s D l a m i n i is a s y o u s it
h e r e t o d a y y o u t h in k t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e S A A B o a r d s h o u ld a ls o h a v e
b e e n s e c u r i ty v e t t e d ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

I w o u ld l ik e t o r e t u r n to y o u r

a ffi d a v i t a t p a g e 7 , a n d a t p a g e 7 y o u p ic k u p a t p a r a g r a p h 3 .3 th e f a c t
t h a t y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d Pr o j e c t M a n a g e r . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M a y b e ju s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e t e n e s s a n d I t h i n k

w e h a v e b o t h t o u c h e d o n t h i s , w o u ld y o u k n o w o r w o u l d y o u n o t k n o w
w h e t h e r E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e r s o f S A A w o u ld h a v e a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d
in f o r m a ti o n ?

I s th a t s o m e t h i n g y o u w o u l d k n o w o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g

you would not know?
M S D L A M I N I:

N o , I w o u l d n o t k n o w, I w o u ld n o t C h a ir p e r s o n , I

w o u ld n ’t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t a r e y o u a b le t o s a y w e ll i f e x e c u tiv e

m a n a g e r s o f S A A w e r e g o in g t o h a v e a c c e s s to c l a s s if i e d i n f o r m a ti o n
t h e n th e B o a r d w o u l d a ls o h a v e a c c e s s to c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n , i s t h a t
s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e a b l e to s a y i n t e r m s o f y o u r .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
20

M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s , i t w o u l d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , it ’s l o g ic a l .

It would make sense yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I d o a c tu a lly h a v e a fo ll o w

u p q u e s t i o n fr o m t h a t b e f o r e w e g o t o M I S S .

Page 45 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r v e t ti n g o p e r a ti o n d i d y o u

a t a n y p o in t a s s e s s w h e th e r t h e E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e r s a n d S u p p o r t s t a ff
t h a t y o u w e r e v e t t i n g h a d a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n fo r m a ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I:

N o , n o , w e d id n o t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t ’s g o t o – y o u m e n t io n e d M I S S , t h a t ’s th e

Minimum Information Security Standards document.

It has been

in c l u d e d in th e l e g is l a ti o n b u n d le t h a t w e w e r e j u s t l o o k i n g a t , a n d y o u
r e fe r e n c e d C h a p te r 5 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t , y o u w i ll f in d t h a t a t p a g e 4 6 5 o f
10

t h e le g i s l a ti o n b u n d le . D o y o u h a v e it in fr o n t o f y o u ?
M S D L A M I N I:

465?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

Ye s , y e s I d o .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t h i n k y o u w e r e r e fe r r i n g t o C la u s e 1 .5 o n t h a t

p a g e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
“ P o li t ic a l

S o le t u s s e e w h a t th a t c l a u s e s a y s .

a p p o in t e e s ,

D ir e c t o r s ,

G e n e r a ls ,

It says:

Ambassadors,

e tc e t e r a , w i ll n o t b e v e t t e d u n l e s s t h e P r e s i d e n t s o r e q u e s t s
20

o r th e r e l e v a n t c o n tr a c t s o p r o v i d e s . ”
It then goes on and says:
“ Fr o m t h e l o w e s t l e v e l u p t o D e p u t y D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a ll s t a ff
m e m b e r s a n d a n y o t h e r in d iv i d u a ls w h o s h o u ld h a v e a c c e s s
t o c l a s s i fi e d

in f o r m a ti o n

must be subjected

v e t ti n g . ”

Page 46 of 190

to s e c u r i ty

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
Do you see that?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o f o l l o w in g o n fr o m t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n s

e a r l ie r d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i f i t w a s e s t a b l i s h e d t h a t t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e
B o a r d o f S A A h a d a c c e s s t o c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a t i o n t h e y w o u ld b e
r e q u ir e d t o b e s u b j e c t e d t o s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g ?
M S D L A M I N I:

A b s o l u t e ly, a b s o l u t e ly.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t th e y a r e n o t a m o n g t h e p o l it ic a l

a p p o i n t e e s w h o w o n ’t b e v e t t e d u n le s s r e q u ir e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t o r
10

t h e ir c o n tr a c t p r o v id e s , a r e t h e y ?
M S D L A M I N I:

T h e y a r e n o t f u l l m e m b e r s w h o a r e e m p lo y e d b y S A A .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w h a t I a m a s k i n g is a r e th e y p o li ti c a l

appointees?
M S D L A M I N I:

No they are not.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o , s o th a t fir s t s e n t e n c e c o u ld n ’ t a p p ly to

t h e m , w h a t d o e s a p p ly t o t h e m is th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h ic h i s ir r e s p e c ti v e o f y o u r l e v e l i f y o u h a v e

a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n f o r m a ti o n y o u m u s t b e v e t t e d .
20

M S D L A M I N I:

Yo u m u s t b e v e t t e d .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

Is that correct?

T h a t’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h e c o n d u c t o f t h is v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n w a s

n o t c o m p li a n t w it h M I S S w h e n i t w a s c o n d u c t e d a t S A A w a s i t ?

Page 47 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
MS DLAMINI:

I t w a s b e c a u s e th e E x e c u ti v e s w h o w e r e v e t te d a r e

employees of SAA.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w h a t I a m i n t e r e s t e d in is th is p a r a g r a p h o f

M I S S t o w h i c h y o u d r e w o u r a t te n ti o n s a y s th a t ir r e s p e c t iv e o f th e l e v e l
y o u a r e a t i f y o u a r e a p e r s o n w h o h a s a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d in f o r m a ti o n
y o u m u s t b e s u b j e c t to s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I see that.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e h a v e a lr e a d y c o n f ir m e d th a t th e B o a r d

m e m b e r s o f S A A w o u l d h a v e h a d t h a t a c c e s s , i f a n y o n e h a d it .
10

M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , a n d w h a t I s a y fo ll o w i n g o n fr o m t h a t i s

t h e y w e r e n ’ t v e t t e d i n y o u r s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g o p e r a ti o n a t S A A w e r e th e y ?
M S D L A M I N I:

No they were not.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h a t v e tt i n g o p e r a t io n d id n o t c o m p ly w i th

t h is p a r a g r a p h o f M I S S d i d i t?
M S D L A M I N I:

N o , n o i t w a s n o t o n t h i s , i t w a s o n S e c ti o n 2 A .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

M s D l a m i n i- o h C h a ir w e a r e a t

q u a r t e r p a s t , I a m g o i n g t o m o v e to a n e w to p ic , s o i t m a y b e
c o n v e n i e n t t o t a k e th e b r e a k .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o t h a t is f in e , w e w il l a d jo u r n fo r t e a a n d

resume at half past. We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, le t u s c o n tin u e .

Page 48 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mis s D la min i w e w e r e b e fo r e

th e b r e a k a t p a g e 7 o f y ou r a ffid a v it a n d I h a d in d ic a te th a t a t p a r ag r a ph
3 .3 y o u r e c o r d th e r e th a t y o u w e r e a p p o in t e d a s th e p r o je c t ma n a g e r o f
th e b e ttin g p r o c e ss , y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n e v id e n c e th is mo r n in g to th a t
e ffe c t, is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , th a t is c o r r e c t Ad v oc a te H o fme y r.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d y o u s a y a t p a ra g r a p h 3 .4 th a t y o u d es ig n ed

a p r o je c t p la n , is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I:
10

Ye s th a t is c o r r ec t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I w o u ld lik e to g o to th a t p r o je c t p la n b e c a u s e

y o u a tta c h it a s a n An n e x u r e to y o u r a ffid a v it. L e t u s ju s t g o to th e fir s t
p a g e to s ta r t w ith , th a t is a t p a g e 3 0 , th r e e z e r o o f Ex h ib it D D ( 2 4) .
C H A IR PER SO N:

D id y o u s a y p a ge 2 0 ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

3 0 C h a ir, th r e e z e r o .

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C a n y o u c o n fir m Mis s D la min i th a t th e d o c u me n t

th a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 3 0 a n d r un s to p a ge 4 2 o f Ex h ib it D D ( 2 4 ) is th e
p r o je c t p la n th a t y o u c o mp ile d .
MS D LA MIN I:
20

Ye s Ad v o c a te H o fme yr, it is th e p r o je c t p la n th a t I

d e s ig n ed .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I w o u ld lik e to p ic k it u p th e n a t p a g e 3 4 , th r e e

fo u r.
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

A t p a g e 3 4 y o u ha v e a h e a d in g th e r e a g a in s t

p a r a gr a p h n u mbe r 1 .3 , w h ich r e a ds p r o je c t g o a ls a n d ob je c tiv es , d o y o u

Page 49 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C o u ld y o u p le a s e r e a d in to th e r e c o r d w h a t y o u

r e c or d e d in th is p r o jec t p la n , w e r e th e p r o jec t g o a ls a n d o b jec tiv e s ?
MS D LA MIN I:
“Th e ma in g o a l o f th e p r o je c t is fo r SSA t o s u p p o r t
th e g o v e r n men t o f R SA in s e c u r in g its so v e r e ig n ty
and

p r o te c tin g

its

in te g r ity,

th r o u g h

co n d u c tin g

v e ttin g to a ll e x e c u tiv e ma n a g e me n t a n d s up p o r t s ta ff
10

a t S AA, in a p r e s c r ibe d ma n n e r a s ma n d a te d b y th e
N a tio n a l In te llig e n c e Ac t a s a me n d e d b y Se c tio n 3 o f
th e G e n e r a l In te llig e n c e Ame n d me n t Ac t 11 .”
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n e x t s e n te n c e ?

MS D LA MIN I:
“Th e o b je c tiv e is to e n s u r e th a t a ll c la s sifie d a n d
s e n s itiv e d oc u me n ts w ith in SSA a r e a s s e s s ed b y
p e r s on n e l w ith v a lid s ec u r ity c le a r a nc es .”
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We ll c a n I a s k fir s t o f a ll, it s e e ms to me th a t

th a t is a n e r r o r in th a t s e n te n c e to r e fe r to S SA, s h o u ld th a t n o t b e a
20

r e fe r e nc e to SAA?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s – y e s th a t is a n e r r o r.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , i t is a n e r r o r w e h a v e ma d e n u mer o us time s

in o u r in v e s tig a tio n s b e c a us e w e c o n fu s e th e A a n d th e S, b u t is i t c o r r e c t
th a t w h a t y o u me a n t to r e c o r d h e r e is th e o b je c tiv e is a ll c la s s ifie d a n d
s e n s itiv e d o cu me n ts w ith in SAA a r e a cc es s e d b y pe rs o n n e l w ith v a lid

Page 50 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
s e c ur ity c le a ra n ce s , is th a t c o r r ec t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Th a t is c o r r e c t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d h o w w e r e y o u g o in g to d o th a t if y o u h a d n o t

e s ta b lis h ed a t a ll in th is v e ttin g o p e r a tio n w h e th e r a n y on e a t SAA h a d
a c tu a lly h a d a cc es s to c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

I th in k in a n id e a l s itu a tio n w ill b e c o n d u c te d p r io r to

e mp lo y me n t s o th a t wh e n y o u h av e ac ce ss to c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n yo u –
y o u h a ve a lr e a dy g o n e th r o ug h th e b a c kg r ou n d s cr e e n in g .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

N o w I u n d e r s ta n d th a t is a n id e a l, w ha t I a m

a s k in g is h ow c o u ld it h a v e b e e n a n o b je c tiv e o f th is v e ttin g e x e r c is e th a t
w a s g o in g to b e c o n d u c te d in r e s p e c t o f e x is tin g e mp lo y e es to e n s u r e
th a t th e y o n ly h a d a c c e ss to c la s s ifie d a n d s e n s itiv e d o c u men ts if th e y
h a d v a lid s e c u r ity c le ar a nc e s in a s itu a tio n w h e r e n o - o n e h a d a t in a n y
p o in t in th is v e ttin g o p e r a tio n a c tu a lly fo u nd o u t w h e th e r a ny o n e a t SAA
d id h a v e a cc e ss to c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

O u r r o le w a s to id e n tify th e r is k p o se d b y th e e x ec u tiv es

w h o a r e a lr e a dy e mp loy e d a t th a t e n tity a n d th e n a d v is e th e c lie n t, th e
e n tity a c c o rd in g ly
C H A IR PER SO N:
20

We ll w h a t Mis s H o fme y r is p u ttin g to y o u o r is a s k in g

y o u Miss D la min i is ac tu a lly fu n d a me n ta l to th is p r o je c t th a t y o u we r e
v e ttin g . Th is s e n te n c e sa ys th e o b je c tiv e o f th is p r o je c t, o f th is v e ttin g is
to e n s u r e th a t c la s s ifie d a n d s en s itiv e d o c u me n ts w ith in SAA a r e
a c c es se d b y p er s o nn e l w ith v a lid s ec u r ity cle a r a nc e s . N o w s he is s ay in g
to y o u th e s ta r tin g p o in t, s h o u ld th e s ta r tin g p o in t n o t h a v e b e e n th e
p e o p le th a t y o u a r e re q u ir ed to v e t, d o th e y h a v e a cc e ss to c la ss ifie d a n d

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
s e n s itiv e in fo r ma tio n o r d o c u men ts in te r m s o f th e ir jo b s b e c a u se if y o u
d o n o t a s k th a t q u e s tio n f ir s t b e fo r e d o in g th e p r o je c t, y o u ma y b e
w a s tin g ev e ry b o dy ’s time a n d mo n e y, ve ttin g p e o p le wh o w ill n o t h a ve
a c c es s

to

c la ss ifie d

in fo r ma tio n

and

s e n s itiv e

d oc u me n ts .

Yo u

u n d e rs ta n d th e q u e s tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

I g e t th e q u e s tio n C h a ir p e rs o n b u t r e me mb er w e s tar te d

b y s a y ing o ffic ia ls w h o a r e e mp lo y e d b y a n o r g a n o f s ta te n e e d to
u n d e r go v e ttin g , a s p e r s e c tio n 2 ( A) o f t h e L a w. R ig h t?

N o w th o s e

p e r s on s if th e y ha v e ac ce ss to c las s ifie d in fo r ma tio n a s p ar t ( B) n ow o f
10

Se c tio n 2 ( A) , th e y ha v e to be v e tte d s o if yo u a r e e mp lo y ed b y a n or g a n
o f s ta te y o u h a v e to b e v e tte d .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Bu t th a t is n o t th e q u e s tio n .

th e o b je c tiv e o f th is p r o je c t.

Th e q u e s tio n r e la te s to

Th e o b je c tiv e o f th is p r o je c t w a s n o t to

ma k e s ur e e ve r yb o dy e mp lo y ed a t SAA w a s s e c ur ity v e tte d , th a t w a s , th a t
is n o t th e o b je c tive th a t is s ta te d h er e . Wh a t is s ta te d h e re is th a t th e
r e a s on w hy y ou w er e h av in g th is pr o je c t w a s to ma ke s ur e th a t p e o p le
w h o h a d ac ce ss to s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n w ou ld b e p e o p le w h o h av e v a lid
s e c ur ity c le ar a nc e s , a nd th e q u e s tio n is h ow d o y ou u n d er ta k e a pr o jec t
w h ic h h a s s uc h a n o b je c tiv e if y o u d o n o t k n o w th a t th e p e o p le th a t y o u
20

a r e g o in g to s p e n d time o n v e ttin g , a r e p e o p le w h o d o h a ve a c c es s to
s u c h in fo r ma tio n .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s w e d id n o t a cc e ss th e jo b d e sc r ip tio ns o f th e

e x e cu tiv e s th a t I c a n s ay p r ior to v e ttin g b u t th e a p p r o ac h w a s to s a y a t a
s tr a te g ic le v e l as e x ec u tiv es th e y h a v e to be v e tte d .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u w a n t to ta k e it fr o m t h e r e Mis s Ho fme y r ?

Page 52 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Mis s D la min i y o ur ev id e n ce h a s be e n c lea r a t th e

le v e l o f fa c t a t n o s ta g e in th is v e ttin g o pe r a tio n d id y ou o r yo u r te a m
e s ta b lis h w h e th e r th es e ex ec u tiv es o r th e ir s u p p or t s ta ff h a d a c ce ss , is
th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , th a t is c o r r e c t, y e s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Mis s D la min i I a m g o in g to s h o w y o u in du e

c o u rs e th a t th a t is a le g a l r e q u ir e me n t fo r a n y la w fu l v e ttin g to b e
c o n d uc te d a t a n y Sta te - O w n e d En te r p r is e . I a m g o in g to te ll y o u th a t n o w
a n d I w ill ta k e y o u th e r e la te r, b u t I a m n o t c o n c e rn e d w ith th a t fo r th e
10

mo me n t. W h a t I a m c o n c e r n ed w ith fo r th e mo me n t is y o u r o w n p r o je c t
p la n a n d y o u r o w n p r o je c t p la n s a ys th e r e a s o n w h y w e a r e d o in g th is is
b e c a us e w e w a n t to e s ta b lis h a n d fin d p e op le th r o u g h a s e c ur ity v e ttin g
p r o c es s w ho h a v e th e r e q u is ite c le a r a nc e to a c c e ss a ty p e o f in fo r ma tio n
th a t w e d id n o t ta k e a n y s te p s to e s ta b lis h w h e th e r th e y w e r e a c c es s in g
a t a n y p o in t.
MS D LA MIN I:

O k a y le t me c o me in th e r e , i n th a t, th e r e a s o n th a t I h a v e

g iv e n to s a y th e p e rs o n , th e o ffic ia ls w h o a r e e mp lo y e d b y a Sta te O w n e d
En tity n e e d s to u n d e r g o a v e ttin g a s s e s s men t. In th is c a s e w e a r e ta lk in g
a b o u t e x ec u tiv es th a t a r e a lr e a dy e mp lo yed s o we n e e d to min imiz e th e
20

r is k no w to sa y th is pe r so n , th e s e pe o ple , th is o ffic ia ls a r e a lr e ad y
e mp lo y e d .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t y o u ma y n o t n e e d to v e t th e m, th a t is th e

o th e r o p tio n a v a ila b le to y o u is it n o t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Why?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Be c a u s e if y o u d o n o t e s ta b lis h w h e th e r th e y

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h a v e ac c es s to th e v er y in fo r ma tio n th a t y o u s ay th e y n ee d s ec u r ity
c le a r an c e fo r ma y be th e n y o u s h ou ld n o t v e t th e m a t a ll?
MS D LA MIN I:

We w o u ld v e t th e m b e c a u s e th e y a r e e mp lo y e d by a Sta te

En tity.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

We w ill c o me to th a t in d u e c o u r s e .

Ye s , y o u s e e Mis s D la min i, if th e o b je c tiv e o f th e

p r o je c t w as to v e t e v er y bo d y a t SAA w h o w a s e mp loy e d th e r e , th e n it
w o u ld b e o p e n to y o u to s a y w e ll w e d id n o t h a v e to c h e c k w h e th e r
p e o p le , th e p e o p le w e w e r e ve ttin g h a d a c c e ss to c la s s ifie d in fo r ma tio n
10

b e c a us e we w e re s imp ly v e ttin g e v er y b od y w h o w a s e mp lo y ed th e r e ,
o k a y?

Bu t th a t is n o t w h a t th e o b je c tiv e s a y s a s I u n d e r s ta n d it.

It

s e e ms to s ay w e v e ttin g p e o p le so th a t w h e n th e y h a ve a cc e ss to
c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n , s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tion th e y w ou ld b e ha v in g v a lid
s e c ur ity c le a r an c es a n d th e w h o le q u e s tio n th a t Mis s H o fme y r w a s a s k in g
a n d I w a s c o min g in o n , is o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d th a t if th a t is th e ,
th a t w a s th e o b je c tiv e o n e w o u ld e x p ec t th a t y o u w o u ld s e e k fir s t to
e s ta b lis h w h o h a s in th e c o u r s e o f th e ir r e s p o ns ib ilitie s , in th e c o u r s e o f
th e ir d u tie s , w h o h a s a cc e ss to c la s s ifie d in fo r ma tio n a n d s e n s itiv e
in fo r ma tio n , s e n s itiv e do c u men ts , g iv e us th o s e p e o p le , th o s e a re th e
20

o n e s w e a re g o in g to - to d e a l w ith .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s C h a ir p e r so n if I ma y e la b o r a te to s a y flo w in g fr o m th e

Se c tio n 2 ( a ) o f th e la w, c o n s id e r in g th a t th e s e o ffic ia ls w e r e a lr e a d y
e mp lo y e d by a Sta te O w n e d En tity, th a t w o u ld b e a b ig c o ns id er a tio n fo r
th e m to b e v e tte d .
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , n o n o , Mis s D la min i I d o n o t w a n t u s to w a s te time

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o n th is .

We h av e d e a lt w ith th a t a n d y o u h a v e ag r e ed th a t is n o t th e

b a s is o n wh ic h th e , th is p r o je c t w as d o ne .

Th e b a s is o n w h ic h th is

p r o je c t w as d o n e is s ta te d in th e o b je c tiv e [in te r v e n es ].
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s

C H A IR PER SO N:

An d th a t d o e s n o t ta l k a b o u t e v er y bo d y th a t is

e mp lo y e d it ta lk s a b o u t s o me b o dy w h o may h a v e ac c es s to c la ss ifie d a n d
s e n s itiv e d oc u me n ts . Yo u mig h t b e a b le to a n s we r, y o u mig h t n o t b e a b le
to a n s w e r b u t o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d th at i f th a t w a s th e o b je c tiv e y o u
w o u ld s ay to SAA o r w h o e v e r w e do n o t w a nt to w a s te time v e tt in g p e o p le
10

w h o ’s jo b s d o n o t r e q u ir e th e m th e m t o h a v e a cc e ss to s e n s itiv e
in fo r ma tio n . We d o n o t w a n t to w a s te time v e ttin g p e o p le w h o r e a lly h a v e
n o th in g to d o , w h o d o n o t c o me c lo s e to s e n s itiv e o r c la s s ifie d
in fo r ma tio n .

G iv e u s th e o n e s ‘w h o s e r e s p o ns ib ilitie s p u t th e m in a

p o s itio n w h e re th e y c o u ld h av e a cc es s .
MS D LA MIN I:

C h a ir p e r s on if w e w e re to re fe r to th e le tte r s b e tw e e n th e

tw o Min is te r s it s ta te s th a t th e s e o ffic ia ls h a v e a cc e ss to s e ns itiv e
in fo r ma tio n .

Ma y b e th e q u e s tio n w o u ld b e , d id th e tw o Min is te r s w h o

e n g a g e d o r co mmu n ic a te d p r ior to th e p r o je c t b e in g imp le me n te d , w h a t
w a s th e r e , w h a t e x ac tly d id th e y d o to e n s u r e th a t th e s e p e o p le h av e
20

a c c es s to s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n ?
C H A IR PER SO N:

W h e r e d o e s it s a y th a t in th e le t te r ? O r w h ic h le tte r is

it? Th e fir s t o n e th a t w a s b y Min is te r Ma h lo b o ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , y e s , th e fir s t o n e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

I th in k it is p a g e 1 7 C h a ir.

Ye s .

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MS D LA MIN I:

It is p a g e 1 7 . I t s a y s , le t m e ju s t r e fe r, o k a y if y o u c a n g o

to 1 9 [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll le t u s s ta r t w ith 1 7 .

O n p a r a g r a p h 2 I ju s t s e e

w h e r e it s a y s g iv e n s en s itiv e in fo r ma tio n r e c e iv ed o n a n o n g o in g b a s is .
N o w I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u k no w, I d o n o t k n o w w h o is s u p p os e d to
r e c e iv e th a t s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n th a t h e is ta lk in g a b o u t, w h e th er h e is
ta lk in g a b o u t th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y re c e iv ing s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n
a b o u t SAA? O r w h e th e r h e is ta lk in g a b o u t a n y b od y e ls e?
MS D LA MIN I:
10

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

I d o n o t k n o w.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

D o y o u k n o w? I d o n o t k n o w.

O k a y, a lr ig h t.

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Is th e r e a n y th in g e ls e in th a t le tte r th a t y o u th in k

s u p p or ts y o ur n o t c h e ck in g w h e th er th e y h ad a c c es s to ?
MS D LA MIN I:

I a m ju s t d r iv in g C h a ir p er so n th e p o in t th a t in th e tw o

Min is te r s w ho e n g a ge d p r ior to th e p r o je c t be in g imp le me n te d , it is s ta te d
o n th e s e le tte r s to s a y th e se e x ec u tiv es h a v e ac c es s to s e ns itiv e
in fo r ma tio n o n a n o n g o in g b a s is [in te r v e n es].
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

L e t u s s ta r t o n th e le tte r d a te d o r o n , a p p e a r in g o n

p a g e 1 7 , is th er e an y th in g th a t yo u re ly o n th e r e to s ay th e se Min is te rs
s a id th e s e e xe c u tiv es h a ve a c ce ss to s e n s itiv e in fo r ma tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

L e t me r e a d p a r a g r ap h 2 .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

Ya .

It h a s c o me to th e a tte n t io n o f th e S ta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y

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th a t th e r e is a n ur g e n t n e ed fo r ve ttin g a n d r e - ve ttin g o f th e Sta te O w n e d
En te r p r is es g iv e n s en s itiv e in fo r ma tio n r ec e iv e d o n a n o n go in g b a s is .
N o w th e qu e s tio n th a t Ad v o c a te H o fme y r is p o s in g in te r ms o f ac c es s to
s e n s itiv e in fo r ma tio n , I a m s a y in g I w a s n o t p r iv y o f w h a t th e tw o
Min is te r s c o mmu n ic a te d o n a n d if th e r e w a s a n y r e as o n o r in fo r ma tio n
s h a r ed r e la tin g to th a t a c c e s s o f s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , y o u s e e it is n o t g o in g to h e lp if w e a r e g o in g to

lo o k a t th e s e le tte r s if y o u d o n o t k n o w if t h e le tte r s h e lp y o u a n s w e r th e
q u e s tio n . I f y o u – if y o u k n o w th a t th e y c o n ta in s o me th in g th a t h e lp s y o u
10

a n s we r th e q u e s tio n th e n it is fin e b u t i f y o u d o n o t k n o w th e n th e r e is n o
p o in t in lo o k in g a t th e m
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s

C H A IR PER SO N:

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r if th e y p r o v id e a n a ns we r fo r

you?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s to a n e x te n t th a t th e tw o Min is te r s mig h t h a ve

e n g a g e d w ith SAA to o b ta in , to h a v e t h e r e a s o ns a s to d o th e s e
e x e cu tiv e s h av e a cc e ss to c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ya , b u t th a t is s p e c u latio n , is th a t r ig h t, y o u a r e

s p e cu la tin g ?
20

MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , s o it is k n o w n fr o m th a t c o n te x t, th a t is w h a t I a m

tr y in g to e x p la in .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Bu t – b u t o th e r th a n s p e c u la tio n y o u a r e n o t a b le to

p o in t to a n y th in g to s a y it s h o ws th a t it s u p p or ts th e d e c is io n to v e t
p e o p le w ith o u t c h ec k in g wh e th e r th e y h ave a c c es s , th e y h a d a cc es s to
s e n s itiv e in fo r ma tio n , is th a t r ig h t?

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MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s C h a ir p e rs o n b u t I w ou ld g o w ith p a r ag r a p h 2 to

s u p p or t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s b u t r e me mb e r p a r ag r a p h 2 y o u a gr e e d w ith me

e a r lie r o n th a t wh e r e it r e fe rs to s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n w e d o n o t kn o w
w h o th e y a re ta lk in g a b ou t, th e Min is te r s is ta lk in g a b o u t, w h e th er h e is
ta lk in g a b o u t s e ns itiv e in fo r ma tio n r e c e ive d b y Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y
a b o u t SAA?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ab o u t SA A

C H A IR PER SO N:
10

O r w h e th e r it is , w e d o n o t k n o w w h o r e c e iv ed th e

in fo r ma tio n th a t h e is ta lk in g a b o u t, o k a y ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Alr ig h t. If y o u fe e l th a t y o u h av e n o t, if y o u w a n t to

c h e ck s o me th in g b e for e w e le a ve th is p o in t y o u ma y h av e a lo o k .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s I d o .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Bu t o th e r w is e if th e r e is n o th in g e ls e Mis s H o fmey r c a n

mo v e o n .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s I q u ic k ly w a n t to c h e c k s o me th in g . O h y e s I th in k th e

la te r d a te d 2 0 1 5 , N o v e mb er 2 6 [in te r v e n es ].
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

MS D LA MIN I:

Pa g e 1 9 – p a g e 1 9 .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

C h a ir it is p a g e 1 9 .

Ye s ?

Fr o m fo r me r Mr N e n e , I th in k th e is s u e o f s e n s itiv e

in fo r ma tio n o n a n o n g o in g b a s is c o mes u p a g a in .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

So r r y ?

Th e is s u e o f s e n s itiv e in fo r ma tio n r e c e iv e d o n a n o n g o in g

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
b a s is is co min g u p a g a in .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Bu t h e , a ll h e is d o in g is ju s t r e fe r r in g to w h a t Min is te r

Ma h lo b o s a id in h is le tte r.
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

H e is n o t s a y in g a n y th in g o f h is o w n .

Ye s . Ye s . Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Mis s H o fme y r ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u C ha ir, I w o u ld lik e to th e n g o b a ck to

y o u r pr o je c t p la n . We w er e lo o k in g a t fir s t o f a ll th e o b je c tiv e s th a t y o u
10

id e n tifie d , th a t w a s a t p a g e 3 4 I w ou ld lik e to g o to p a g e 3 5 if w e may ?
Th a t is o f Ex h ib it D D ( 2 4 ) .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o w y o u w ill s e e th e r e is a h e a d in g th e r e a g a in s t

th e , n u mb e r 1 .5 , d o y o u s e e th a t? R e a d in g “C r itic a l Su c c e ss Fa c to rs .”
MS D LA MIN I:

W h e r e a r e y o u n o w?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

We a r e a t p a g e 3 5 .

O h 3 5 . Ye s ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th is is s till in th e p r o je c t p la n th a t y o u

d e v is ed a n d I w as d r aw in g yo u r a tte n tio n to th e h e a d in g a g a ins t ite m 1 .5
20

w h ic h r ea d s “C r itic a l Su c ce ss Fa c to rs ,” d o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s I s e e th a t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d y o u h a v e r e c o rd e d th e r e :

“Th e fo llo w in g a r e c r itic a l fa c to r s limte d to th is
p r o je c t”
An d th e n th e fir s t b u lle t is :

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“Ma n a g e me n t Bu y In a n d Su p p o r t,”
D o y o u s ee th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s I s e e th a t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D id y o u h a v e a s e n s e a t th e ti me th a t y o u w e r e

c o n d uc tin g th is v e ttin g e x e r c is e , w h a t th e le v e l o f Ma n a g e me n t Bu y - In
a n d Su p p o r t w a s?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:
10

We r e y o u s a tis fie d w ith it?

Ye s – y e s – y e s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u d id n o t h a v e a n e e d a t s o me p o in t to g o a n d

me e t Mis s My e n i d o w n in C a pe To w n to s a y y o u w e r e n o t r ec e iv ing
a d e q u a te s up p o r t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Yo u me a n , c a n y o u ju s t e la b o r a te a b it?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I a s k e d y ou w h e the r y o u w e r e s a tis fie d w ith th e

le v e ls o f Ma n a ge me n t Bu y - In Su p p or t fo r th e v e ttin g e x er c is e a n d y o u , I
u n d e rs to o d y o ur a n sw e r to b e y e s , y ou w e r e s a tis fie d ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n I s a id , I , w e ll I a m r e ly in g on w h a t y o u

s a id in y o ur a ffid a v it, I th o u g h t y o u s a id th e r e w a s a p o in t th a t y o u h a d to
20

g o me e t Mis s My e n i d o w n in C a p e To w n b e c a us e y o u w er e c o n ce r n ed
a b o u t th e le v e l o f s u p p o r t a n d b u y- in y o u we r e r e ce iv in g?
MS D LA MIN I:

O k a y le t me e x p la in o n th a t , in te r ms o f th e b u y - in a n d

th e s u p p o r t, r e me mb e r w e h a d b r ie fe d th e b o a r d w h en w e r o lle d o u t th e
p r o je c t b u t th a t d id n o t me a n th a t a n y is s u es a r is in g fr o m th e time th a t w e
b r ie fe d th e m, I c a n n o t r a is e th e m, a n d th a t d id n o t me a n th a t I d o n o t

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h a v e th e b u y- in .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So w e r e y o u s a tis fie d y o u d id g e t th e ir b u y- in in

th e c o u r se o f th e v e ttin g o p e r a tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

In a s e n s e b e c a us e th e y w e r e b r ie fe d , e v e r yb o dy w a s

b r ie fe d a n d th e r e w e r e n o , I d id n o t g e t a n y in d ic a tio n to s a y th e y d o n o t
s u p p or t w h a t w e h a v e to d o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So w h e n th e s e v e n e x e c u tiv e ma n a ge r s r es ig n ed

b e c a us e o f th e v e ttin g p r o c e s s w a s th a t n o t a n in d ic a tio n th a t y o u d id n o t
h a v e th e ir s u pp o r t?
10

MS D LA MIN I:

N o , it w a s n o t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

W h a t d id th a t in d ic a te ?

R e me mb e r th e e x e cu tiv e s wh o r e s ign e d wo u ld wr ite th e ir

le tte r s to th e ir e mp lo y e r n o t to me . I t c o u ld b e o f d iffe r e n t r e a s o ns b u t I
h a d to e n g a g e on th a t to s a y c ou ld it b e a n yth in g r e la tin g to th e w o r k th a t
w e a r e d o in g th e re . So in te r ms o f th e s u p p o r t th e b o a r d , th e a c tin g C EO
a t th e ti me , th e r e w a s n ev e r a ny in d ic a tio n to s a y th e y a r e n o t o n b oa r d .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , I fu lly u n d e r s ta n d th e b o a r d b e in g o n b o ar d

b e c a us e th e y we r e n o t b e ing v e tte d , w h a t I a m c o n c e r n ed a b o u t is th e
11 8 ma n a g e rs a n d s u p po r t s ta ff w h o m y o u v e tte d in a s itu a t io n w h e r e
20

s e v en o f th o s e e x ec u tiv e ma na g e rs re s ig ne d d u r ing th e c ou r se o f th is
v e ttin g o p e r a tio n a n d w e h a v e h e a r d e v id e n c e b e fo r e th is C o mmis s io n
p r e v iou s ly, th a t th e r e w a s g r e a t u n h a p p in e s s a mo n gs t th e e x e c u tiv e
ma n a g e rs a b o u t th e fa c t th a t th e y w e r e b e in g s u b je c te d to s ec u r ity
v e ttin g in jo b s th a t th e y h a d n e v e r b e e n fo r e w a r n e d w o u ld h av e th is
r e q u ir e men t a n d in c ir c u ms ta n c es w h e re th e y h a d to g iv e d e e p ly p e r s o n a l

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in fo r ma tio n o v e r to th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag en c y, w h er e th o se n o t ma tte r s
th a t c a me to y o u r a tte n tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Mis s , Ad v o c a te H o fme yr, y o u w ill r e c a ll th a t I w o u ld

a r r a ng e th e me e tin g s o th a t w e e n g a g e o n a n y o f th e is s u e s a r is in g a t
th a t p a r tic u la r time a n d a t n o s ta g e d id a n y o f th e b o a r d me mb e r s , a n y o f
th e e x e c u tiv e in d ic a te d to me o r to th e o r g a n iz a tio n I r e p r es e n t to s a y
th e y a r e u n h a p py o r th e y a r e n o t g o in g , th e r e a r e a n y is s u es th a t n e e d to
b e d isc u ss e d . I w ill b e th e o ne to e n g ag e th e m to s a y th es e ar e th e , th is
is th e s itu a tio n w h e r e we a r e a n d pr o v id e sta tu s r e p o r tin g in th a t r e g a rd ,
10

s o in th a t s e n s e I w o u ld s a y I w a s o f th e id e a th a t I s till h a v e th e b u y - in
fr o m th e m.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
y o u a r e ta lk in g a bo u t?

C a n I ju s t c la r ify w h o w a s a t th o s e me e tin g s th a t
Yo u me n tio n th e b o a r d , y o u me n tio n e d s o me

me mb e r s o f th e ex ec u tiv e , p r ev io us ly y o u h a d in d ica te d th e Ac tin g C EO ,
is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Th a t is c o r r e c t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Wa s th e in te r im, I th in k h e r p os itio n a t th e time

w a s a ls o Ac tin g C FO in th os e me e tin gs , Mis s Nh a n ts i? Was s h e a ls o in
th e s e me e tin g s w h er e y o u we r e r ec e iv in g fe e d b a ck ?
20

MS D LA MIN I:

No.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , s o a r e w e ju s t ta lk in g a b o u t th e b o a r d a n d

th e Ac tin g C EO ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , a n d I h a v e to in d ic a te t h a t I w a s s ta tio n e d a t A ir w a y s

Pa r k th e w h o le time s o I w o u ld e n g ag e th e C EO a t a n y g iv e n p o in t, s o
Ad v o c a te H o fme y r a t n o s ta g e d id th e fo r me r Ac tin g C EO in d ic a te d to me

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o r to th e o r g a n iz a tio n to s a y th e r e a r e is s u e s o r d is tur b in g is su e s
p e r ta in in g to th e v e ttin g o f e x e c u tiv e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I u n d e r s ta n d th a t, b u t y o u w e re r e lia n t o n h im fo r

th e in fo r ma tio n a b o u t w h a t th e o th e r ex ec u tiv e s w e r e fe e ling , is th a t
c o r re c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

I w a s p r e p a r ed to b r ie f th e m a t a n y g iv e n s ta g e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , I a m a s k in g a b o u t w h o y o u w e r e r e ly in g o n to

te ll y o u w h e th e r th e r e w e r e o th er ma n a ge r s w h o we r e u n co mfo r ta b le ,
u n h a p py o r d is sa tis fie d a b o u t th is v e ttin g o p e r a tio n . W h a t I u n de r s ta nd
10

y o u to s a y is y o u r p o in t o f c o n ta c t w a s th e Ac tin g C EO a n d i t w a s w ith
h im, a n d th a t w a s Mr Zw a n e a t th e time . Is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Th a t w a s Mr Zw a n e a t th e ti me .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h o y o u w e r e e n g a g in g s o y o u r e lie d o n h im to

g iv e y o u th is in fo r ma tio n c or r ec t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , I w ou ld th e n lik e to g o to pa g e 38 o f

y o u r p ro je c t p la n a n d p ic k it u p th e r e a t it e m 2 .3 o n th e p a g e w h ic h is
d e a lin g w ith ma jo r p r o jec t mile s to n e s , d o y ou s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:
20

Ye s I d o .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o w th e fo u r th lin e w ith in th a t ta b le a fte r th e

h e a d in g in d ic a tes th a t y o u g a v e a b r ie fin g to th e C h a ir p e rs o n o f th e SA A
b o a r d a nd p r es e n te d th e p ro je c t p la n a nd th e d a te fo r th a t is th e 1 3
J a n u ar y 2 0 16 , d o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s I s e e th a t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n th e n e x t lin e ite m is th a t th e r e w a s a

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b r ie fin g to th e S AA b o a r d a n d p r e s e n tin g th e p r o je c t p la n o n th e 1 4
J a n u ar y 2 0 16 , d o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , y e s , I s e e th a t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h y w a s th e r e a n e e d to b r ie f th e C h a ir p e r s on

o n th e d a y b e fo r e th e b r ie fin g o f th e b o a r d ?
MS D LA MIN I:

I h a d r e q u e s te d th e me e tin g to me e t th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f

th e b o a r d a n d fr o m my s id e it w a s s imp ly to o b s e r v e p r o toc o l. If s h e w a s
p r e s en t a t th e b o a r d me e tin g th e n e x t d a y I w o u ld h a v e b r ie fe d h e r
to g e th e r w ith th e b o a r d a t th e s a me time .
10

Th e v e r y sa me p r o jec t p la n

th a t w a s p r e s e n te d to h e r o n th e 1 3 t h w a s t h e v e r y s a me p r o jec t p la n th a t
w a s p re s en te d to th e b o a r d in Mid r a n d Pr o te a H o te l o n th e 1 4 t h . So fr o m
my s id e it w a s s imp ly to o b s e rv e p ro to c o l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

J u s t h e lp me w ith th a t.

W h e r e d id th e me e tin g

o n th e 1 3 J a nu a ry 2 0 1 6 ta k e p la ce w ith Mis s My e n i?
MS D LA MIN I:

In D u r b a n .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

In D u r b a n ?

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So y o u tr a v e lle d t o D u r b a n to me e t w ith Mis s

My e n i to g iv e h e r th e s a me b r ie fin g th a t w ou ld b e g iv e n th e fo llo w in g da y
20

to th e b o a r d , is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

L e t me in d ic a te th a t th e b o a r d s ittin g o n th e 1 4 t h , I w a s

n o t a w a r e th a t th e b o a r d is s ittin g o n th e 1 4 t h . We g o t th a t in fo r ma tio n
fr o m th e C h a ir p e rs o n h er s e lf to s a y lo ok th e b o a r d is s ittin g to mo r r ow in
Mid r a n d it w o u ld be e a s ie r fo r yo u to me e t th e m th e r e b ec a us e s he is in a
p o s itio n to k n o w in te r ms o f th e s c h e d u le for th e b o a r d .

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So r r y, th e n w e w e r e c r os s- p ur p o se s b ec a us e

w h e n y o u d e s ig ne d th e p r o je c t p la n y o u in c lu d e d th a t me e tin g , r e me mb e r
we were at page 38?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : H o w c o u ld y o u h a ve in c lu d e d th is in th e p r o je c t
p la n if y o u d id n o t k n o w a b o u t th e me e tin g b e fo r e ?
MS D LA MIN I:

I th in k th e d a te s - I ju s t a d d e d th e d a te s a fte r it h a d

o c c ur r ed .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , th is w a s n o t a p la n p r e p a r e d in a d v an c e o f
10

th e p r o je c t.
MS D LA MIN I: It w a s b u t I th in k th a t th e d a te - th o s e tw o d a te s I ju s t p u t
th e m a s w e w e n t a lo n g .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O h , s o it w a s r e v is ed a fte r its in it ia l.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O k ay. So , le t me g e t th a t r ig h t. Yo u a r r a n g e a
me e tin g w ith Ms My e n i d o w n in D u r b an .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Be c a u se s h e is th e c h a ir pe rs o n o f th e b o a r d ,

r ig h t.
20

MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o w if w e g o b a ck to y o u r a ffid a v it a t p a g e 8 ...
( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Be fo r e y o u d o th a t Ms H o f me y r.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ap o lo g ie s C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ms D la min i it lo o k s lik e th a t d a te o n p a g e 3 8 th e fir s t

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d a te 8 D e c e mb er 2 0 1 6 is w ro n g . Sh o u ld it n o t b e 2 0 1 5 ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s .
MS D LA MIN I: N o , i t is c o r r e c t, it is 2 0 1 6 .
C H A IR PER SO N: Mm?
MS D LA MIN I: I t is 2 0 1 6 .
C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t th e n y o u a r e ta lk in g ab o u t- h o w c a n y o u s ta r t w ith 8
D e c e mbe r 2 0 1 6 a nd c o me to 11 J a n u ar y 2 0 16 ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : It mu s t b e a 2 0 1 5 .
MS D LA MIN I: O h , y o u me a n th e s e c o n d d a te .
10

C H A IR PER SO N: N o , th e fir s t- w e ll, e i th e r t h e fir s t d a te a r e w r o n g o r th e
o th e r d a te s a r e wr o n g .
MS D LA MIN I: I th in k th e s e c o n d d a te is w ro n g .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ms D la min i c a n I a s s is t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I d o n o t th in k th e s e c on d d a te c a n b e th e wr o n g
o n e . Th a t is b e c a u s e y o u c los e d th e p r o jec t .. . ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O n th e 3 0 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 6 .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .

20

C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V K ATE HO FMEYR :

So , y o u co u ld n ot h a v e h a d y o ur s tak e h o ld er

e n g a g e me n t a fte r y o u h av e c los e d th e p r o jec t.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Is it n o t th e e r r or th a t it s h o u ld b e 8 D ec e mb e r

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2015?
MS D LA MIN I: O h 2 0 1 5 , y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS D LA MIN I: Yo u a r e c o r r ec t, it is 2 0 1 5 .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d s o , d e s p ite th e fa c t th a t y o u p r e s e n te d th is
p r o je c t p la n jus t fo llo w in g o n fr o m th e C ha ir ’s q u e s tio n , o n th e 11 t h o f
J a n u ar y 2 0 1 6 , y o ur e v id en c e h as b e e n th is a c tu a l d o c u me n t w a s r ev is ed
s u b se q u e n tly a n d th a t is h o w w e g e t th e in s e r tio n o f th e 1 4 t h o f J a n u a r y.
Is th a t r ig h t?
10

MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

O ka y.

So , le t me ju s t g e t it r ig h t.

Yo u w e r e

p la n n in g th e n o n ly to me e t w ith Ms My e n i on th e 1 3 t h o f J a n ua ry. Is th a t
r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d y o u me t w ith h e r in D u r b a n a n d wh e n y o u me t
in D u r b a n , s h e th e n in d ic a te d ; o h , th e r e is a b o a r d me e tin g to mo r r o w in
Mid r a n d .
MS D LA MIN I: Th a t is r ig h t.
A D V K ATE HO FMEYR : So ma y b e y o u s h ou ld a tte n d th a t. Is th a t h o w it
20

u n fo ld e d ?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , th a t is h o w it u n fo ld e d .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O k a y. So , th e n I w o u ld lik e to g o b a c k to w h a t
y o u s a id in yo u r a ffid a v it w a s d isc us s ed a t th a t me e tin g w ith Ms My e n i.
Yo u w ill fin d th a t a t p a g e 8 o f Ex h ib it D D 2 4 .
MS D LA MIN I: Pa g e 8 . Ye s .

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , a t p a g e 8 p a r a gr a p h 3 .5 y o u ind ic a te th a t y o u
h a d th is me e tin g o n th e 1 3 t h o f J a n u a r y an d y o u in d ic a te h a lfw ay d o w n
th a t p a r a g r a p h wh a t th e p u r p o s e o f th e me e tin g w a s .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : J u s t te ll u s w h a t th e p u r p o s e wa s .
MS D LA MIN I: Th e p u r p o s e o f th e me e tin g w a s to p r e s e n t th e p r o je c t p la n
a n d to - a n d h o w it is g o in g to b e r o lle d o u t a n d a ls o to r e q u e s t h e r to
ma k e av a ila b le th e ne c es s ar y r e so u rc e s . Su c h a s p a rk in g , a cc es s c a r d ,
p o ly g ra p h s u it, n o d a l p o in t o ffic e s a n d th e n o p e r a tio n a l c en tr e .
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Is th a t n o t s o me th in g th a t y o u w o u ld h a v e to g e t
th e b o a r d o r a t le as t th e e x e cu tiv e me mb e rs o f th e b o a r d to a ss is t w ith ?
H o w c ou ld Ms My e n i fa c ilita te a ll o f th is o n h e r o w n ?
MS D LA MIN I: I w a s o f th e id e a th a t w h a te v e r w e h a v e d is cu ss e d w ith h e r
a n d th e b o a r d to g e th e r th e y w ill b e a b le to a tte n d to i t a n d g e t to u s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o in d e e d .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : If y o u d is c u s s it w ith th e m to g e th e r.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

20

Bu t I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r ev id e nc e to b e y o u h ad

in te n d e d o n ly to me e t w ith Ms My e n i o n th e 1 3 t h .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : It w a s o n ly in th e co u r s e o f th a t me e tin g th a t y o u
w e r e to ld a b o u t th e b o a r d me e tin g th e n e x t d a y.
MS D LA MIN I: Th e b o a r d s ittin g .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So , y o u we n t to h e r o n th e 1 3 t h to d isc us s

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a s p ec ts w ith h e r th a t s h e c o u ld n o t h e rs e lf h a v e e xe c u te d . Is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u . So , th e r e w o u ld o f c o u rs e h av e b e e n
a n e e d n o tw ith s ta n d in g th a t me e tin g to me e t w ith th e b o a r d , c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I: O f c o u r s e , b u t I w a s n o t a w a re w h e n is th e b o a r d me e tin g .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I u n d e r s ta n d th a t.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

L e t u s th e n g o to th e s ta g e s o f th e v e ttin g

p r o c es s a n d yo u p ick th a t u p a t p a g e 9 o f y o u r a ffid a v it.

So r r y, ju s t

b e fo r e I g o th e r e . I d id w a n t to c la r ify o n e th in g . Wa s Ms My e n i a t th e
me e tin g o n th e 1 4 t h ?
MS D LA MIN I: N o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o t.
MS D LA MIN I: Sh e w a s n o t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O k a y.
MS D LA MIN I: J a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

So , y o u s a w h e r o n th e 1 3 t h a n d th e b o a r d

e x c lu d in g h e r y ou s a w o n th e 1 4 t h . Is th a t r i g h t?
MS D LA MIN I: We me t th e b o a r d , th e bo a rd w a s d o w n in Mid r a nd o n th e
14th, yes.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t. O k a y. So , y o u d e sc r ibe fr o m p a r a gr a p h
3 .8 th a t th e r e a r e v a r io u s s ta g es o f a v e tti n g p r o je c t o r o p e r a tio n . C a n
y o u p le a se ta k e u s th r o u gh th o s e th r e e s ta ge s ?

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MS D LA MIN I: O k a y th e .. . ( in te r v e n e s )
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Fo u r, a p o lo g ie s fo ur. Th e r e a r e fo u r s ta g es ?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , th e r e a r e fo u r s ta g es th a t w e fo llo w in te r ms o f th e
v e ttin g e x e r c ise . Th a t is th e a d min is tr a tio n s ta g e , th e v e ttin g fie ld w o r k
s ta g e , p o ly g r ap h e x a mina tio n a n d th e a n a lys is s ta g e w h ic h is th e la s t p a r t
w h e r e th e in fo r ma tio n is in te r p r e te d , a n a ly s e d a n d a r e c o mme n d a tio n is
done.
O k a y,

le t

me

s ta r t

w ith

th e

a d min is tr a tio n

s ta g e .

Th e

a d min is tr a tio n s ta g e it is w h er e a n o ffic ia l w ill fill in a v e ttin g fo r m Z2 0 4
10

fo r m, a t ta c h th e r e q u ir e d d o c u me n ta tio n a n d w e w ill lo a d th a t in o u r
s y s te m a n d v e r ify it, r ig h t.

Ba s ic a lly, th a t is i t in te r ms o f th e

a d min is tr a tio n .
An d th e n th e v e ttin g fie ld w o r k s ta g e n ow th e file fr o m th e
a d min is tr a tio n u n it w ill mov e to th e v e ttin g u n it. Th a t is w h e r e n o w th e
v e ttin g o ffic e r w h o h a s b e e n a s s ig n e d th a t p a r tic u la r c as e w o u ld mak e th e
n e c es s ar y a r ra n g e men t to c o n d u c t in te r v ie w s w ith th e r e fe r e n c es th a t
h a v e b e e n id e n tifie d fr o m th e fo r m a n d a d d itio n a l o n e s th a t s h e w o u ld g o
o n to r e c r u it, if I ma y u s e th a t w o r d . An d th e n a t th is s ta g e th e v e ttin g
o ffic e r w o u ld a fte r ma k in g th o s e a r r a n g e me n ts w o u ld g o o n th e fie ld to
20

c o n d uc t th e in te r v ie w s a n d th e n h e o r s h e w ill c o mb in e a r e p o r t. An d th a t
r e p o r t w ill b e mo v e d to th e p o ly g r ap h e x a min e r.
N o w a t th a t s ta g e it is p o ly g r a p h e x a min atio n a n d le t me a ls o
in d ic a te th a t th e r e a r e s ta n d a r d - th e r e a re g u id in g q u e s tio n s th a t th e
v e ttin g o ffic e r u s e s o r fo llo w s w h e n th e y co n d u c t th o s e in te r v iew s . Bu t
h e o r s he c an a d d a ny q u es tio n s be in g g u id e d b y th e p er so n th a t h e o r

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s h e is v e ttin g b e c a u s e e a c h in d iv idu a ls v e ttin g is d i ffe r e n t fr o m a n o th e r.
So , th e in fo r ma tio n w o u ld b e d iffe r e n t. So , th e v e ttin g o ffic e r w o u ld b e mu s t p r o b e fu r th e r. So th o s e q u e s tio n s c an b e c h a n g ed o r th e r e c a n b e
a d d itio n a l q u e s tio ns b y th e v e ttin g o ffic e r.
N o w th e p o ly gr a p h s ta g e wh ic h is th e th ir d s ta g e . N o w th a t is
w h e r e th e p o lyg r a ph e x a min a tio n w ill ta k e pla c e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Mm- h mm.
MS D LA MIN I: Ar e y o u fo llo w in g me ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I a m.
10

MS D LA MIN I: Ye s . It is c o n d u c te d to ... ( in te r v e n es )
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C a n I ju s t s a y it is mo s t imp o r ta n t th a t th e C h a ir
fo llo w s , n o t me s o . If I c a n ju s t . .. ( in te r v e ne s )
MS D LA MIN I: O k a y. N o w a t th is s ta g e n o w th e p o ly g r a p h is to d e te r min e
th e r e lia b ility o f in fo r ma tio n .

So , h e o r s h e c on d u c ts v e ttin g o f th a t

p a r tic u la r o ffic ia l, c o mp ile a r e p or t. H e o r s h e c a n r e fe r th e file b a c k to
th e v e ttin g o ff ic e r o r th e file c a n mo v e to th e n e x t s ta g e , th e a n a ly s is .
An d th e n th e la s t s ta g e is th e a n a ly s is p a r t w h er e th e
in fo r ma tio n is c o ns o lid a te d , in te r pr e te d , a na ly s e d fro m th e a d min is tr a tio n
s ta g e to th e v e ttin g s ta ge to th e p o ly gr a p h s ta g e . So , th is is th e a n a ly s t
20

n o w w h o is c o n s o lid a tin g a n d in te r p r e tin g a ll th a t in fo r ma tio n to ma k e th e
fin a l c o n c lu s ion s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I w o u ld lik e to p ic k u p o n a fe w a s p e c ts o f e a ch
o f th e s ta g e s .

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MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o w in th e fir s t s ta g e th e r e is a fo r m th a t h a s to
be

c o mp le te d

by

th e

p e rs o n

be in g

ve tte d

and

th e r e

is

ce r ta in

d o c u me n tar y in fo r ma tio n th a t h a s to b e p r o vid e d . Is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a t in fo r ma tio n tha t h a s to b e p ro v id ed is q u ite
e x te n s iv e is it n o t?
MS D LA MIN I: Q u ite e x te n s iv e , y e s , it is .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

Ye s . We h a v e a n a ffid a v it in y o u r file fr o m Ms

O litz k i. Ms O l itz k i w a s C h a ir th e p e r s o n w ho Ms N h a n ts i te s tifie d s h e h a d
h a d a c o nv e rs a tio n w ith Ms My e n i a b o u t. Th e e v id e n c e p re v io us ly wa s
th a t w h e n Ms My e n i r ec e ive d fe e d b ac k o n Ms O litz k i’s s ec u r ity ve ttin g , it
w a s d ra w n to h e r a tte n tio n th a t s h e h a d d u a l c itiz e n s h ip . An d Ms My e n i
e n g a g e d Ms N h an ts i to ta k e s te p s to h av e Ms O litz k i r e mov e d a n d w a n te d
to u s e a c c o r d in g to Ms N h a n ts i’s e v id e n c e th e fa c t o f h e r d u a l c itiz e n s h ip
a s a b a s is fo r r e mov a l.
So , w e h a v e o b ta in e d a n a ffid a v it fr o m Ms O litz k i w h o d e s p ite a ll o f th is
s till is e mp lo y e d b y SAA. An d s h e h a s g ive n u s s o me in d ic a tio ns o f h o w
mu c h in fo r ma tio n ne e d s to b e p ro v id ed in o r d e r to c o mp le te th es e fo r ms

20

a n d y o u w ill fin d th a t a t p a g e 7 0 o f Ex h ib it D D 2 4 .
MS D LA MIN I: 7 0 ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s 7 0 .

J u s t fo r th e r e c o r d , th e a ffid a v it

c o mme n ce s a t p a g e 6 8 o f Ex h ib it D D 2 4 .

It is a n a ffid a v it b y L in d s e y

Sh a r o n O litz k i. I w ill s p e ll O litz k i O - L - I- T- Z- K- I. An d w h e r e I w a n t to p ic k
it u p is a t p a g e 7 0 b e c a us e th e r e a t p ar a g r ap h 1 2 Ms O litz k i in d ica te s th e

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ty p e o f in fo r ma tio n , s h e h a d to s u p p ly in o r d e r to c o mp le te th e fo r m. At
p a r a gr a p h 1 2 s he s a ys th e r e ;
12.

Th e fo r m r e q u ir e d a s ig n ific a n t a mo u n t o f in fo r ma tio n r e

p e r s on a l p a r tic u lar s , e d u c a tio n , h e a lth , in c lu d in g q u e s tio ns r e p s yc h ia tr ic
tr e a tme n t, a lc o h o l a n d d r u g a b u s e a n d p r e v io u s ma rr ia g e o r c o h a b itin g
a r r a ng e me n ts .
13.

In a d d itio n , d e ta ils o f fa mily me mb e r s , r ela tiv e s w as r eq u ir ed

in c lu d in g d e ta ils r e la tin g to th e c o u n tr y o f b ir th a n d n a tio n a lity. N a me s
a n d c o n ta c t d e ta ils o f p e r s o n w h o h a d k n ow n y o u fo r 5 to 2 0 y e a r s w as
10

a ls o r e qu e s te d .

Plu s , a fu ll e mp lo y me n t h is to r y as w e ll as a ll v is its

o u ts id e th e c o u n tr y, SAA me mb e r p lu s s p o us e fo r th e p a s t 5 y e a r s . Als o
c o p y o f p a ss p or t p a g e s .
14.

Ad d itio n a l in fo r ma tio n r e q u ir e d w a s a 3 m o n th h is to r y o f b a n k

a c c ou n ts , c r e d it c ar d a cc o u n ts , v e h ic le a nd h o me lo a n s p lu s a mo n th ly
in c o me a n d e x p e n d itu r e b u d ge t a n d d e ta ils o f p r o p e r ty o w n e d a n d o th e r
s o u rc e s o f in c o me .
Ms D la min i, I d id h a v e y o u r e v id e nc e e a r lier to b e y o u a c c e p t
th is is a s u b s ta n tia l a mo u n t o f in fo r ma tio n th a t n e e d s to b e h a n d ed o v er.
Is th a t c o r r e c t?
20

MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d it in c lu d e s p e rs o n a l a n d p r iva te in fo r ma tio n
o f p e r s o ns , c o r r ec t?
MS D LA MIN I: Fin a n c ia ls y e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Pe r s o n a l a n d p r iv a te .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C o r r ec t.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So th a t is th e fir s t s ta g e . Th e y h a v e to h a n d o v e r
a ll o f th is in fo r ma tio n . An d th e n th e y g e t t o a n in te r v iew, is th a t c o r r ec t,
th a t is th e n e x t s ta g e ?
MS D LA MIN I: Th a t is th e n e x t s ta g e , y e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t. An d y o u h a v e in d ic a te d to u s th a t th e r e
a r e s o me g u id e line q u e s tio ns th a t mu s t b e c o v e re d in th a t in te r v ie w. Is
th a t c o r r e c t?
10

MS D LA MIN I: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d y ou p r ov id e d u s a s a n An n e x u re to y o ur

a ffid a v it w ith s o me o f th o s e q u e s tio n s .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e to b e th a t th e y a r e

g u id e lin e s . Th e y c a n b e d e pa r te d fr o m. Is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Or is it fa ir to s ay th a t th e y p r ov id e th e b as e fr o m
w h ic h q u es tio n s a re a s ke d ?
MS D LA MIN I: Th e y p r o v id e th e b a s e fr o m w h ic h th e q u es tio n s a r e as k e d .
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . An d th e n d e p e n d in g o n a n s w e rs y o u mig h t
w a n t to p r o b e fu r th e r ... ( in te r v e n e s )
MS D LA MIN I: To p r o b e fu r th e r o b v io us ly.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O r a s k a d d itio n a l q ue s tio n s . Is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ex a c tly.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I w o u ld lik e to g o to ty p e o f q u e s tio n s th a t a r e

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a s k ed o f p e o p le s u b jec te d to s e cu r ity v e tting . An d y o u w ill fin d th a t fr o m
p a g e 4 3 o f y o u r Ex h ib it D D 2 4 . Pa g e 4 3 , d o y o u h a ve th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s . I a m o n p a g e 4 3 , y e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , Ms D la min i, I a m ju s t g o in g to h ig h lig h t s o me
o f th e q u e s tio n s .

Th is is a fa ir ly d e ta ile d d o c u me n t c o mp r is in g I th in k

s e v en p a g es . Bu t w h a t I w a n t to h ig h lig h t in th e c o u rs e o f th is an d h av e
y o u c o mme n t o n a fte r w ar ds is th a t n o t o n ly is a ll th a t d o c u me n ta ry
in fo r ma tio n r e q u ir e d to b e p r o v id e d to th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y.

Bu t

w h e n yo u a rr iv e fo r y o ur in te r v iew y ou a r e g o in g to b e a sk e d a s e r ie s o f
10

q u e s tio n s th a t e ng a g e de e p ly p r iva te a n d pe r s o na l ma tte r s . An d I w o u ld
lik e to h ig h lig h t th e q u e s tio n s fo r y o u th a t I s a y a re o f th a t q u a lity.
O k a y.

So , o n p a g e 4 3 y o u g e t a sk e d a w h o le lo t a b o u t y o u r fa mily

b a c kg r o un d a n d u p b r ing in g a n d a mo n gs t th e q u e s tio n s mid w ay d o w n th a t
p a g e is w h e th e r a ll th e c h ild r e n in th e fa mily w e r e tr e a te d fa ir ly w h ile
g r o w in g u p . D o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I t is s o r t o f in th e mid d le o f th e p a g e . We r e a ll
th e c h ild r e n tr e a te d fa ir ly w h ile g ro w in g u p?
MS D LA MIN I: O h y e s .
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : D o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , I s e e th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th a t is q u ite a p e r s o n a l

q u e s tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , I d o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d fu r th e r d o w n a b o u t tw o th ir d s o f th a t w a y

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d o w n yo u a ls o g e t a s ke d ; w e re a n y o f yo u r p a r e n ts or b r o th er s or s is ter s
a b u s in g a lc o h o l, d r u gs o r s u bs ta n c es ? An d if th e a n s w e r is y e s , y o u h av e
to te ll th e v e ttin g o ffic e r w h a t th a t w a s . Do y o u ag r e e th a t th a t is q u ite
p e r s on a l?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , b e c a u s e th e in te r v ie w is q u ite p e r s o n a l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Mm?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , i t is q u ite p e r s o n a l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : It is .
MS D LA MIN I: So , I w o u ld s a y th e e n tir e q ue s tio n in g it is q u ite p e r s o n a l.
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : L e t u s lo o k a t s o me o f th e o th e r ite ms . Yo u g e t
a s k ed th e q u e s tio n a fte r th a t; d id a n y o f y o u r imme d ia te fa mily r e c e iv e
c o u ns e llin g o r ps yc h o th e r ap y ?

An d if th e y d id , y o u h a ve to te ll th is

me mb e r o f th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n cy a b out th e p s y c h o log ic a l tr e a tme n t
th a t o n e o f th e me mb e r s o f y o u r fa mily r e c e iv e d . Is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Fr o m th e q u e s tio n s th a t y o u h a v e th e q u e s tio n s is lik e ,

y e s , it is a s k in g th a t, y e s ... ( in te r v e n e s )
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Yo u th e n g e t a s k e d a t th e b o tto m o f th a t p a g e to
20

d e s cr ib e y ou r s p ou s e ’s p er s on a lity. D o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th a t a ls o is a p e r s o na l ma tte r. Is i t n o t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th e n o v e r th e p a g e a t p a g e 4 4 .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u g e t a sk e d as th e fo u r th q ue s tio n o n th is

p a g e ; if y o u h a d y o u r liv e o ve r a g a in wo u ld y o u ma r ry y o ur s p o us e ?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s . Yo u a c c e p t th a t is a fu n d a me n ta lly p e r s o na l
q u e s tio n ? A q u es tio n th e a ns w er to w h ic h y o u pr o b a b ly wo u ld n o t h av e
e v e r co mmu n ic a te d to y o ur s p o us e .
MS D LA MIN I: As I h a v e s a id I th in k th e e n ti r e ... ( in te r v e n e s )
C H A IR PER SO N: D e p e n d in g o n wh a t th e a n s w e r is .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d . C o r r e c t. I a m a n tic ip a tin g w h e n y o u d o
10

n o t w a n t to a n s w e r th e q u e s tio n . So tr u e . D e e p ly p er s on a l.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ad v o c a te H o fme y r as I h a v e s a id I th in k th e e n tir e ...

( in te r v en e s)
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s .
MS D LA MIN I: In te r v ie w is p e rs o n a l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O f c o u r s e , b u t th is . .. ( in te r v e n e s )
MS D LA MIN I:

I k n o w y o u wa n t to p ic k u p c er ta in q u es tio n s ...

( in te r v en e s)
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d , b e c a u s e th is w a s a n o p e r a tio n th a t w a s
c o n d uc te d a t SAA .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

In w h ic h a 11 8 p e o p le w e r e a s k ed th e s e

q u e s tio n s . R ig h t. Bu t fu r th e r o f th e w a y d ow n . W h a t k in d o f r e la tio n s h ip
w a s th e r e b e twe e n y o ur p a r en ts ? Ag a in , th a t is p e r s o n a l, is it n o t?

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MS D LA MIN I: All th e q u e s tio n s a r e p e rs o n al. I s till . .. ( in te r v e n e s )
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In th e mid d le o f th e p a g e . W h a t k in d o f in flu e n c e
d o r e la tio n sh ip s ha v e on th e ma r r iag e ? The y a r e ta lk in g th e r e ab o u t h o w
y o u r e la te to y o u r p ar e n ts in la w. D o y o u s ee th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , I s e e th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n y ou a re a s ke d .

D o yo u b e liev e in

h a v in g mo r e th a n o n e p ar tn e r a t a time ? An d y o u a r e a sk e d to e x p la in
y o u r a ns w er, c o rr e c t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ag a in , d e e p ly p e r s on a l. An d y o u a r e e v e n a s k ed ;
if y o u h a v e lo s t y o u r s p o u s e , a t th e b o tto m o f th e p a g e , h o w y o u r c h ild r e n
c o p e d w ith th e d e a th o f y o u r s p ou s e? D o y o u s e e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ar e th e s e p e o p le g iv e n a n y c o u ns e llin g b e fo r e o r
a fte r th e y a n s w er th e s e q u es tio n s in a v e ttin g o p e r a tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I: N o , th e y a r e n o t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o . Bu t th e y k n o w it is g o in g to b e fo llo w e d b y a
p o ly g ra p h te s t, d o th e y n o t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .

20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , th e y d a r e n o t a n s w er a n y o f th e s e q u e s tio n s
fa ls e ly d a r e th e y?
MS D LA MIN I: I w o u ld n o t s a y th a t e x a c tly b u t y o u w o u ld g e t th e a n s w e rs
th e r e s p o ns e s d ep e n d ing o n w h a t th e p e r s on h a v e s a id .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We ll if th e y w a n t to s u c c e e d a n d g e t th e ir

s e c ur ity c le ar a nc e , th e y b e tte r g iv e tr u th fu l a n s w e rs to th e s e q u es tio n s .

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Is th a t n o t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I: I b e lie v e s o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s . L e t u s g o to p a g e 4 5 . Yo u a r e a s k e d a ll

a b o u t y o u r e mp loy me n t b e h av io u r a nd th e n tw o th ir d s o f th e w a y d o w n
y o u a r e as k e d a bo u t y o u d e a l w ith s tr es s a nd p r e ss u r e . D o y o u se e th a t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , I s e e th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a t is a ls o p e r s o n al, is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , a d v o c a te H o fme yr.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u .
10

MS D LA MIN I: Th a t e n tir e in te r v ie w is p e r son a l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O k ay. L e t me r e a d th e fin a l q u e s tio n s b e c au s e I
th in k y o u r a ns w er is g o in g to b e th e s a me . An d th e n I w ill ju s t r e c o r d
th e m fo r th e r e c o r d a n d y o u w ill te ll me if y o u a c c e p t th a t th e y a r e a ll
p e r s on a l. A t p a g e 4 6 y o u a r e a s k e d a b o ut w h e th e r y o u a r e s o c ia l a n d
w h e th e r y o u g o to b a r s a n d c lu bs . Yo u a r e a s k ed w h e n y o u a tte n d p a r tie s
o r s oc ia ls w ha t y o u ta lk a b o u t. Yo u a r e a s ke d w h e th e r y o u h a ng o u t w ith
me n o r w ith w o men . Yo u a r e a sk e d wh a t y o u se e a s lux ur ie s . Yo u a r e
a s k ed w h e th e r y o u a r e th e ty p e o f p e r s o n to ma k e imp u ls iv e d e c is io ns
w ith r e g a r d to b u y in g th in gs .

20

At p a g e 4 7 , y o u ar e as k ed a b o u t w h e th e r y ou b o r ro w mo ne y o n a
r e g u la r b as is fr o m y o u r fr ie n d s o r fa mily a n d w h e th e r y o u p a y it b a c k o n a
r e g u la r b as is .

Yo u a r e a s k e d w h a t s to r e s y o u h a v e a c c o u n ts w ith a n d

w h e th e r y ou a r e in v o lv e d in a n y fo r m o f g a mb lin g . An d if s o , y o u mu s t
e x p la in ho w o fte n yo u d o s o . Yo u a r e as k ed a b o u t w he th e r yo u b e lon g to
a c h u rc h . W h e th e r it g u id e s y ou in y o u r life. W h a t p r in c ip le s y o u live b y.

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Yo u a r e a s k e d a b o u t w h e th e r y ou b e lo n g to a r e lig io n .

Yo u a r e a s k e d

a b o u t w h e th e r yo u a r e a me mb e r o f a p o litic a l o r g a n is a tio n a n d w he th e r
th e o r g a n is a tio n is w h a t y ou b e lie ve in . Yo u a r e as k ed a b ou t w h e th e r y o u
th in k it is w r o n g to c h a n g e y o u r b e liev e s on a r e g u la r b a s is a n d to g iv e
th e r e a s o ns fo r th a t.
At p a g e 4 8 , y o u a r e a s k e d a b ou t w h a t y o u fe e l a b o u t th e
g o v e rn me n t o f th e d a y a n d w h e th e r y o u a r e h a p p y w ith th e c u r r e n t
s itu a tio n o u r la n d . Yo u a r e as ke d w ha t r o le in p o litic a l o r ig in a tio ns - wh a t
y o u r r o le is in p o litic a l o rg a n isa tio n s a nd h o w yo u a tte n d to th a t r o le .
10

Yo u a r e a s k e d h o w yo u fe e l a b o u t th e e x is te n c e o f r a d ic a l o r ga n is a tio ns .
An d th e y o u a r e a s k e d a b o u t y o u r p e r s on a lity.

Yo u a r e a s k e d a b o u t

w h e th e r yo u a r e pr e d ic ta b le . W h a t y o u d o w h e n yo u a r e a ng r y. H ow y o u
d e a l w ith it. An d w h a t y o u d o a fte r a n a r g u me n t.
An d o n th e la s t p a g e , p a g e 4 9 , y o u a r e a s ke d th a t i f y o u w e r e a if th e p e r s o n q u e s tio n ing y o u we r e yo u fr ien d . Th e y s a y, c o u ld th ey tr u s t
y o u w ith th e ir se c re ts . Yo u a r e a s k ed w h a t y o u th in k a b ou t ma n ip u la tio n .
Yo u a r e a sk e d w h e th er y ou a re b r ib ab le . A n d y o u a r e a sk e d wh a t y o u w ill
d o if y o u a r e e v e r b r ibe d o r b la ck ma ile d .
Ms D la min i, I h a v e n o t r e a d a ll th e q u es tio n s . I h a v e r e a d the
20

o n e s w h ich w h e n I w e n t th r o u g h th is , I th o u g h t h ig h lig h te d th e e x tr e me ly
in v a s iv e n a tu r e o f th e s e qu e s tio ns . An d th e e x te n d o f y o u r pe rs o n a l life
th a t y o u h a v e to d is c lo s e w h e n y o u a r e s u bje c te d to s e c u r ity v e ttin g . D o
y o u a cc e p t th a t a ll o f th e s e q u e s tio n s a re o f th a t n a tu r e ?
MS D LA MIN I:

J u s t lik e I h a v e s a id Ad v o ca te H o fme yr, th e e n tir e

in te r v iew, it is a p e r s o n a l in te r v ie w.

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e a n s w e r is ye s ?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , th e a n s w e r is y e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

R ig h t.

L e t u s t h e n r e tu r n if w e ma y to th e

p o ly g ra p h s ta ge b e ca u se a s I u n d er s ta nd it, w e a r e n o w a t s ta ge th r e e .
Yo u h a v e b e e n a s ke d a ll o f th o s e q u e s tio n s in th e in te r v ie w s ta g e a n d
n o w y ou a r e g o ing to p r o ce e d to th e p o ly gr ap h s ta g e . An d th a t is a t p a g e
10

1 0 o f y o u r a ffid a v it in Ex h ib it D D 2 4 .
N o w Ms D la min i w h a t y ou s a y h er e a t p a ra g r a p h 3 .8 .3 is th a t
a n d I a m ju s t g o in g to r e a d if I ma y th e fir s t tw o s e n te n c es .
D u r in g th is s ta ge th e o ffic ia l w ill b e s u b je cte d to a p o ly g r a p h in o r de r to
d e te r min e

th e

r e lia b ility

of

th e

in fo r ma tio n

g a th e r e d

d u r ing

th e

in v e s tig a tio n . It is ma in ly c o n d uc te d in re sp e c tiv e To p - Se cr e t c le ar a nc e s ,
h o w ev e r in c e r ta in in s ta n c es it ma y b e u s e d in o th e r le v e ls o f c le a r a n c es
w h e r e th e in v e s tig a tio ns r e q u ire th e d e te r min a tio n o f th e r e lia b ility o f th e
in fo r ma tio n g a th e r e d . Afte r th e in te r v ie w th e o ffic e r w r ite s a r e p o r t.
O k a y. W h a t I a m in te r e s te d in is h o w d id t h e d e c is io n- h o w w as
20

th e d e c is ion ta k e n in r es p e c t o f th e SAA o ff ic ia ls wh e th e r to su b je c t th e m
to p o ly g r a p h te s t?
MS D LA MIN I: Be c a u s e th e y w e r e ve tte d a t a To p - Se c r e t le v e l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So h o w d id y o u d e c id e to v e t th e m a t a To p -

Se c r e t le v e l?
MS D LA MIN I: It is s ta n d a r d p r ac tic e fo r s en io r ma n a g e me n t to b e v e tte d

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a t a To p - Se c r e t L e v e l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Bu t d o yo u n o t h av e to k n ow w h e th er th e y ar e

e v e r g o ing to b e in r e c e ip t o f To p - Se c r e t in fo r ma tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Be c a u se th e r e qu e s t s ta ted th a t th e y a r e ex ec u tiv e s s o

th e y a r e v e tte d a t a To p - Se c r e t le v e l.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , le t me ju s t u n d e r s ta n d th a t. J u s t b e c a u s e th e
p e o p le y ou w e re v e ttin g w e re e x ec u tiv es o f a s ta te - o w n e d c o mp a ny, is
th e r e a n a u to ma tic a p p lic a tio n th e n th a t t h e y mu s t r e c e iv e To p - Sec r e t
c le a r an c e ?
10

MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : R ig h t. An d a t n o p o in t p r io r to th is d o e s a n y o n e
e v e r fin d o u t w h e th e r th e y ac tu a lly e ve r g o in g to g e t To p - Se c r e t
in fo r ma tio n . Is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I: Th a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e y ’r e s u pp o r t s ta ff, w h y d id th e y g e t

p o ly g ra p h e d?
MS D LA MIN I: I n o te d th a t fr o m th e fo r ms o r th e s u b mis s ion s th a t w e g o t
it w a s ma in ly th e e x e c u tiv es th a t s u b mitte d .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o , I th in k th e q u e s tio n is d iffe r e n t. I u n d e r s ta n d
20

th a t th is o p e r a tio n a t S AA in v o lv e d in te r v iew s a n d th e n p o lyg r a ph s o f a ll
th e p e o p le in te r v ie we d . Is th a t c o r r ec t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s .

Amo n g s t th e p e o p le in te r v ie w e d w e r e

n u me r o us s u p po r t s ta ff. W h y w e r e th e y p o ly g r a ph e d ?
MS D LA MIN I:

As I a m s a y in g Ad v o c a te H o fme y r fr o m th e s u b mis s io ns

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th a t w e r e ce iv e d it wa s th e ex ec u tiv e s th a t s u b mitte d b a ck th e fo r ms a n d
th e s u p p o r tin g d oc u me n ts .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: N o , th e q u e s tio n is , d id yo u n o t s u b jec t s ta ff w h o w e r e
n o t e x e c u tiv e ma n ag e rs to a p o ly g r a p h te s t?
MS D LA MIN I: N o .
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u d id n o t?
MS D LA MIN I: N o .
C H A IR PER SO N:
10

D id y o u s u b - w a s it o n ly th e e x e c u tiv e ma n a g e rs th a t

y o u s u b jec te d to a p o ly g r ap h te s t?
MS D LA MIN I: I t w a s o n ly th e e x e c u tiv e man a g e rs , y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e C o mmis s ion e ng a g e d w ith th e Sta te Se c u r ity
Ag e n c y b e fo re th is e v id e nc e a b o u t th e r e p o rts th a t h a d b e e n g e n e r a te d .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th o s e r e p o r ts w e r e n o t p r ov id e d . Bu t p a r t o f
w h a t w a s r e q ue s te d w as th a t in y o u r a ff id a v it y o u w o u ld h a v e h a d a lo o k
a t th o s e r e p o r ts a nd y o u w ou ld g iv e us a n in d ic a tio n in s o fa r a s th e
p o ly g ra p h q u e s tio ns w e r e c o nc e r n ed w h a t th e

20

s ta n d a r d p o ly g ra p h

q u e s tio n s w er e th a t e me r g e d fr o m th o s e r e p o r ts . D o y o u r e me mb e r th a t
r e q u es t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , I r e me mb e r th a t r e q u e s t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I d id n o t fin d th a t i n y o u r a ffid a v it. C a n y o u h e lp
u s to d a y w ith th e a n s w er to th a t q u e s tio n ?
MS D LA MIN I: W h a t w o u ld b e th e q u e s tio n ?

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h a t- w h e n y o u lo o k e d a t th e r e p o r ts o f th e

p o ly g ra p h s , r ig h t.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : As y o u w e r e r e q ues te d to d o . Th e C o mmis s io n
w a s in te r es te d to k n o w w h a t ty p es o f q u e s tio n s o v er a n d a b ov e th o s e
s ta n d a r d q u es tio n s w e re b e in g a s k e d o f th o s e p e r s o n s s u b jec te d to
p o ly g ra p h s?
MS D LA MIN I: O h y e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ar e y o u a b le to a s s is t u s w ith th a t?
10

MS D LA MIN I: Yo u a r e q u ite c o r r e c t. I r e m e mb e r in th e me e tin g th a t w e
h a d y o u d id in d ic a te .

I w a s h o p in g I w o u ld h av e th e c o p y o f th e

q u e s tio n s jus t lik e y o u h av e g o ne th r o u g h th e v e ttin g q u e s tio n in g .

We

w e r e ho p in g to pr o v ide y ou w ith th o s e q u es tio n s a nd th e n in d ic a te w h a t
w e r e th e a d d itio n a l q u es tio n s . So , I th in k th a t c a n b e p r o v id ed .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O k a y.
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : My u nd e rs ta n d in g wa s it w a s g o ing to b e c ov e r ed
in th e a ffid a v it. Is it th e c a s e th a t y o u w e re n o t a b le to d o s o a t th e time
o f p r o v id in g th e a ffid a v it?
20

MS D LA MIN I: I th in k it w a s ju s t a s lip o f th e min d a t th e time .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I u n d e r s ta n d .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d as y o u s it h e r e to d a y y o u ha v e n o t d on e th a t
e x e rc is e?
MS D LA MIN I: N o , I h a v e n o t.

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : So , y o u w ill n e e d to g o b a c k .
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , I c a n d o th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I u n d e r s ta n d .

Th a n k y o u .

So , I h a d

mis u n d e rs to o d th a t a n d I a m g r a te fu l fo r th e c la r ific a tio n . So , it w a s o n ly
e x e cu tiv e ma n ag e rs , n o t th e y ’r e s u p po r t s ta ff w h o w e r e po ly gr a p h ed . Is
th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s , th a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d I u n d e r s ta nd yo u r e v ide n c e to b e th e r e as o n
fo r th a t is b e c a u s e a s s o o n a s y o u a r e a n e x e c u tiv e ma n a g e me n t in a
10

s ta te - o w n ed c o mp a ny y o u mu s t b e c le a re d fo r To p - Se c r e t.

Is th a t

c o r re c t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th a t is th e d e fa u lt p o s itio n ir r e s p ec tiv e o f

w h e th e r a ny p a r tic u lar e x ec u tiv e ma n ag e r is e v e r ac tu a lly g o in g to s e e
To p - Se c r e t in fo r ma tio n . Is th a t r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d d o e s th a t s tr ik e y o u a s o d d Ms D la min i?
MS D LA MIN I: N o t a t a ll.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O h , e x p la in w h y ?
20

MS D LA MIN I: Be c a u s e I k n o w wh e n it c o me s to th e is s u e o f th e le v e ls o f
c le a r an c es . Th e s e c u r ity ma n a g e rs w ill in d ic a te in te r ms o f th e r e q u e s t
to s ta te th a t th e s e p a r tic u la r p e r s o ns s h o u ld b e v e tte d a t th is le v e l, r ig h t.
Bu t in th is c a s e fr o m th e r e q u e s t th a t w e r e c e iv ed fr o m th e e n tity i t w a s
n o t s p e c ifie d . So , w e ju s t to o k th e s ta n d a r d a p p r o ac h to s a y th e y w ill b e
v e tte d a t a To p - Se c r e t le v e l.

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A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u s e e it is th e To p - Se c r e t le v e l th a t r e q u ire s

th e p o ly g r a ph , r ig h t?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Is To p - Se c r e t th e h i g h e s t le v e l?
MS D LA MIN I: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

W h y w o u ld y o u a pp ly th e h ig h e s t le v e l a n d n o t

th e lo w e s t le v e l i f y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t in fo r ma tio n th e y a c tu a lly a r e
a c c es s ing ?
M S D L A M I N I: L e t m e c o m e b a c k t o t h a t. L e t m e c o m e b a c k t o t h a t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t –
M S D L A M I N I: Yo u s a y i n g t o m e – ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e q u e s ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u d o . O k a y s h e w i ll r e p e a t i t .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s c a n y o u r e p e a t th e q u e s t io n ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a s k e d is , i f y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t ty p e s
o f i n f o r m a t io n .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

Th e e x e c u ti v e s h a v e a c c e s s t o w h y d o y o u

d e c i d e t o c l e a r t h e m fo r t h e to p s e c u r i t y c le a r a n c e a n d n o t t h e l o w e s t
s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e ?
M S D L A M I N I:

O h n o w I g e t t h e q u e s ti o n a n d I h a v e s a i d A d v o c a t e

H o f m e y r a t S M S l e v e l w e v e t a t t h e t o p s e c r e t c le a r a n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s S M S l e v e l ?
M S D L A M I N I: S e n i o r M a n a g e m e n t . Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e r e is s o m e r u l e s o m e w h e r e ?
M S D L A M I N I : T h e r e is n o r u l e s o m e w h e r e . A t S M S l e v e l w h e n w e g e t
t h e r e q u e s t i t is i n d ic a te d th a t t h i s p e r s o n m u s t b e v e t t e d a t t h is l e v e l.
B u t a t t h is p a r tic u la r t i m e t h e r e q u e s t t h a t c a m e d i d n o t i n d ic a te w h a t
le v e l s h o u ld t h e y b e v e t t e d a t .

B u t b e c a u s e i t w a s s ta t e d th a t th e y

h a v e a c c e s s t o s e n s i ti v e i n fo r m a ti o n w e v e tt e d t h e m a t t h e t o p s e c r e t
c le a r a n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l w e h a v e a lr e a d y tr a v e r s e d t h a t M s D l a m in i
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is n o t c le a r th a t it w a s e v e r s ta t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o b o d y e v e r s a i d t h a t.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t w e – y o u s a i d y o u c o n s id e r e d t h a t.
M S D L A M I N I: I a m s t a ti n g fr o m t h e l e t t e r s fr o m th e t w o M i n i s t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e d e a l t w i t h t h a t .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e n o t a b l e to p o i n t o u t a n y t h i n g th a t s a y s

that.
M S D L A M I N I: S e n s i tiv e i n f o r m a ti o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Remember I gave you time to say where does it say
t h e r e t h a t th e e x e c u tiv e s w o u ld r e c e iv e s e n s i t iv e i n fo r m a ti o n .
M S D L A M I N I:

O n t h e le t t e r C h a ir p e r s o n it s a y s ; “ G iv in g th e s e n s i t iv e

in f o r m a ti o n t h e y r e c e i v e o n a n o n g o i n g b a s is . ”
CHAIRPERSON: No.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

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CHAIRPERSON:

M s D la m i n i y o u c a n a c c e p t th a t i t d o e s n o t s a y th a t

and we looked at it, both – I gave you chance to look and we – I asked
you and you conceded. Let us move on.
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is e a s y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I ju s t a s k w h e n th e m a n a g e r s w e r e b r ie f e d
w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d in t h a t b r i e f i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d i n I t h in k i t w a s
January 2016?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I w a s n o t p r e s e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o c o n d u c t e d t h a t b r ie f in g ?
10

M S D L A M I N I: W e h a v e g o t a s tr u c t u r e d e d ic a t e d t o d o in g th a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e r e – d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e e x e c u t iv e s

w e r e t o l d th a t t h e y c o u l d r e f u s e t h e p o ly g r a p h ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s y o u k n o w t h a t th e y w e r e to l d t h a t th e y

could refuse it?
M S D L A M I N I : N o I w a s n o t p r e s e n t w h e n t h e – th e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e
conducted.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u f in d o u t a f t e r w a r d s w h a t w a s

c o m m u n ic a te d t o m a n a g e r s a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e y c o u l d r e fu s e t h e
20

p o ly g r a p h ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I d i d n o t fi n d o u t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u c o m e t o h a v e a n y s e n s e o f w h e t h e r
t h e m a n a g e r s w h o w e r e s u b j e c te d t o th e p o ly g r a p h w e r e to ld t h a t th e y
h a d to t a k e th e p o ly g r a p h ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o [ m u m b l in g ] .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Do you accept that they ought to have been

t o l d t h a t t h e y a r e e n ti tl e d t o r e fu s e it ?
M S D L A M I N I:

T h e – I th i n k t h e a w a r e n e s s p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t w e r e

p r e s e n t e d w e w il l h a v e to e s t a b li s h i n t e r m s o f t h e d e t a il s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a q u e s t io n a b o u t w h e t h e r i t h a p p e n e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m in t e r e s t e d i n is d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i n
10

a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e a p p l ic a ti o n o f t h e p r o p e r v e tt i n g p r o c e d u r e s t h e y
s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t o l d th a t th e y a r e e n ti t le d t o r e fu s e t h e p o ly g r a p h ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s o f c o u r s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s o f c o u r s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s O li tz k i ’s a ffi d a v i t s a y s t h a t t h e y w e r e t o l d

t h a t t h e y n e e d e d to d o t h e p o ly g r a p h .

D o y o u h a v e a n y b a s is t o

d is p u te w h a t s h e s a y s t h e y w e r e to ld ?
M S D L A M I N I: I w o u l d n o t t e l l.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I t h i n k t h e a n s w e r is n o ?
20

M S D L A M I N I: I w o u l d n o t t e l l.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

I w o u ld t h e n l ik e t o g o t o t h e

v a l u a ti o n s ta g e t h a t is – y o u d e a l w i th a t p a g e 11 .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y :
“ D u r i n g t h is s t a g e ”

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
T h i s is a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . 8 .4 .
“ A l l i n f o r m a ti o n c o n ta i n e d i n c l u d i n g t h e r e p o r t s b y
t h e v e t t in g a n d p o ly g r a p h o ffi c e r s a r e s t u d ie d a n d
in t e r p r e t e d i n o r d e r to d e t e r m i n e r i s k s . ”
A n d t h e n m o v i n g o n a b it :
“ T h e r e a f t e r t h e e v a l u a t o r w il l m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s
whether or not clearance ought to be granted or
d e c l in e d . ”
Do you see that?
10

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s I s e e t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e v e t ti n g r e g u l a ti o n s s a y
t h a t a n a p p l ic a n t m u s t b e n o t i fi e d in w r i t in g o f t h e o u tc o m e o f a v e t ti n g
o p e r a ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u t a k e s te p s t o e n s u r e a ll o f th e p e o p l e
w h o w e r e v e t t e d a t S A A r e c e iv e d t h a t f e e d b a c k i n w r i t in g ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s , y e s I d id .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d y o u e s t a b li s h a b o u t th a t ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e fe e – y o u m e a n t h e o u t c o m e ?

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS DLAMINI:

Ye s .

T h e o u t c o m e y e s i t w a s r e c e iv e d b y th e a c ti n g

C E O a t t h e t i m e , Mr Z w a n e , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o – s o r r y – s o w h a t d i d h e s a y ? D i d h e s a y to
y o u th a t t h e o u tc o m e s h a d b e e n c o m m u n ic a te d t o t h e r e s t o f t h e
e x e c u tiv e m a n a g e m e n t a n d s ta ff ?

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M S D L A M I N I: I d id n o t g e t t h a t fe e d b a c k fr o m h i m . B u t fr o m o u r s id e
it w a s r e c e iv e d b y t h e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y I j u s t n e e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e a c t in g C E O ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Or by – you gave it to the acting CEO?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n th a t i s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n o t s e n d th e i n fo r m a t i o n t o t h e in d i v i d u a l

e x e c u tiv e m a n a g e r s ?
10

M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay so whether or not he passed it on you do not

know?
M S D L A M I N I: W h e th e r o r n o t h e p a s s e d i t o n I d o n o t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh would he – would he be meant to pass it on?
M S D L A M I N I: H e w o u l d b e m e a n t t o p a s s it o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

And do you know whether the correspondence that

w a s a d d r e s s e d to h i m w i t h t h a t – w i th th e o u t c o m e a s k e d h i m t o c o n v e y
t h e o u t c o m e t o th e m a n a g e r s o r n o t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : It d i d a s k h i m ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C o u l d y o u p r o v i d e th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o u s

a ft e r t o d a y ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o i t w a s n o t in w r i ti n g .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s w a s a v e r b a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h is w a s a v e r b a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e r e g u la ti o n s r e q u ir e th e a g e n c y t o
e n s u r e t h a t th is in f o r m a t io n is g i v e n t o t h e p e r s o n w h o h a s b e e n
v e t te d , i s t h a t n o t c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a m I t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u t h a t in p e r f o r m a n c e
of

that

d u ty

you

tasked

th e

a c ti n g

CEO,

Mr

Zwane

with

th e

r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r c o m m u n ic a t i n g it ?
10

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W o u ld y o u b e s u r p r is e d t o l e a r n t h a t a t l e a s t

t w o o f t h e c u r r e n t S A A m a n a g e r s w h o w e r e s u b j e c t e d t o t h a t v e t ti n g
w e r e n o t e v e r t o l d t h a t o u tc o m e ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s I w o u l d b e s u r p r is e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w o u l d y o u b e c o n c e r n e d a s w e ll a s

s u r p r is e d ?
M S D L A M I N I : I w o u l d b e s u r p r i s e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n e v e r i n d ic a ti o n
fr o m o u r s i d e t o s a y o r t o a p p r o a c h u s i n t e r m s o f th o s e o u tc o m e s . S o
I w a s o f t h e i d e a t h a t t h e a p p lic a n ts d i d r e c e i v e t h e f e e d b a c k .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Were you the one who – who asked Mr Zwane

v e r b a l ly to in f o r m t h e o t h e r e x e c u ti v e m a n a g e r s o f th e o u tc o m e ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s I a m t h e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Did he undertake to do so?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n I w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o p a g e
1 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it i f w e m a y ? A t t h a t p a r a g r a p h , t h is i s a c tu a lly t h e
p o i n t I w a s r e f e r r i n g to e a r li e r M s D l a m in i a b o u t y o u r m e e t i n g w it h M s
M y e n i . B e c a u s e y o u s a y a t p a g e 1 2 p a r a g r a p h 3 .1 0 :
“During

th e

r a n g in g

fr o m

process

we

r e s i g n a t io n s

e x p e r ie n c e d
by

some

c h a l le n g e s
e x e c u tiv e s ,

v a r io u s e n q u ir i e s b y t h e o ff ic i a ls fr o m M a n g o A ir li n e s
o n w h e t h e r t h e s c o p e o f v e t t in g h a d b e e n e x t e n d e d
t o t h e e x e c u t iv e s o f M a n g e a n d t h e e x e c u ti v e s n o t
10

b e i n g c o - o p e r a tiv e .

A ll t h e s e c h a l l e n g e s h a d th e

p o t e n t i a l o f t a i n ti n g th e i n t e g r i t y a n d p r o l o n g in g t h e
process.”
S o it w a s t h e r e t h a t I h a d p ic k e d u p t h a t I h a d a t le a s t t h o u g h t t h a t
d u r i n g t h i s v e tt i n g o p e r a t io n it h a d b e e n c o m m u n ic a t e d to y o u t h a t
t h e r e w e r e e x e c u tiv e s w h o w e r e n o t h a p p y a b o u t c o m p ly in g w it h t h e
r e q u ir e m e n t o f v e t t in g . D i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u h a d s a i d h e r e ?
M S D L A M I N I:

R e m e m b e r w e h a d r e c e i v e d th e l is t s o I w a s a b l e t o

tr a c k i n t e r m s o f w h o h a s s u b m i tt e d a n d w h o h a s n o t s u b m it t e d .

So

ju d g i n g fr o m t h a t I w o u ld t e l l h o w m a n y n u m b e r s a r e s ti ll o u t s t a n d i n g .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u t a k e s t e p s t o fi n d o u t th e r e a s o n s
w h y in r e s p e c t o f t h o s e w h o w e r e o u t s t a n d in g t h e y h a d n o t b e e n
s u b m i tt e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t t h e n y o u a r r a n g e a n u r g e n t m e e ti n g w i t h

M s My e n i , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?

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M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y d id y o u s c h e d u le t h a t m e e ti n g ?
MS DLAMINI:
3 .1 0 .

To a d d r e s s th e c h a l l e n g e s t h a t I h a v e h i g h li g h te d i n

B e c a u s e a s s t a t e d t h e y h a d a p o t e n ti a l o f t a i n ti n g t h e i n t e g r it y

a n d p r o l o n g in g th e p r o c e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d j u s t t e l l m e h o w w o u l d th e y t a in t t h e

in t e g r i ty o f th e p r o c e s s i f t h e y d id n o t w a n t to s u b j e c t t h e m s e lv e s to
s e c u r i ty v e tt i n g ?
M S D L A M I N I: B e c a u s e t h e n i t w il l m e a n t h e o ff ic ia ls t h a t w e r e o n t h e
10

lis t i f th e y a r e n o t c o m p l y i n g i t m e a n s w e w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e a b le t o
r e a c h o u r t a r g e ts a n d w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o c o m p l e t e t h e w o r k th a t w e
w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w e r e th o s e ta r g e ts ?
M S D L A M I N I : To e n s u r e t h a t t h e e x e c u tiv e s a s t h e y r e f e r t o t h e m , t h e
top 100 are vetted.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e to p 1 0 0 in c lu d e d s u p p o r t s t a ff , is t h a t

r ig h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e y c a l l th e m s e lv e s t h e t o p 1 0 0 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , y e s .
20

M S D L A M I N I: S o I u s e d t h a t te r m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t t h e y w o u ld n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e to i n c l u d e

s u p p o r t s ta ff . I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e r e t o b e 1 0 0 m a n a g e r s a t S A A o r
am I wrong?
M S D L A M I N I : Yo u – I a m j u s t r e f e r r in g t o t h e t e r m t h a t t h e y w o u l d u s e ,
yes.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u – y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t e r m t o in c l u d e s u p p o r t
s t a ff , d id y o u n o t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s I d id . Ye s I d id .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s Ms My e n i ’s r e s p o n s e w h e n y o u
r a i s e d th e s e c h a l le n g e s w i th h e r ?
M S D L A M I N I:

O n t h e i s s u e o f – l e t m e ju s t g o b a c k .

Remember

a m o n g s t t h e c h a ll e n g e s – y e s h e r in d ic a t i o n w o u l d b e th e y w o u ld tr y t o
a s s is t a n y w a y – i n a n y w a y p o s s i b l e .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d o y o u k n o w w h a t s t e p s w e r e ta k e n t o

a s s is t ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d o s a y la t e r i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h e r e w a s
a g r e a t i m p r o v e m e n t a f t e r th a t p o in t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s ju d g i n g fr o m t h e – t h e s u b m i s s io n s .

Ye s b u t i n

t e r m s o f th e a c tu a l s te p s , n o I w a s n o t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

I understand that.

Th e r e w a s j u s t th e p o in t

a b o u t th e q u e s ti o n s t h a t w e r e a s k e d M s D l a m i n i a t t h e p o l y g r a p h .

I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u s a y y o u h a v e n o t d o n e t h e e x e r c is e t o c o n s i d e r.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h o s e r e p o r t s . B u t a s y o u s i t h e r e to d a y w o u l d
y o u h a v e a n y b a s i s f o r d is p u t in g w h a t M s O li tz k i h a s i n d ic a t e d w e r e t h e
ty p e o f q u e s ti o n s s h e w a s a s k e d ?

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M S D L A M I N I:

I w o u ld p r e fe r n o t t o e n g a g e o n t h a t p a r tic u la r c a s e

b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t h a d ti m e t o l o o k a t it . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d
o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a t e . S o …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a t t h e t i m e y o u c o m p il e d y o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n
a t t h e e n d o f th is v e t ti n g e x e r c is e .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H a d y o u a t t h a t s ta g e l o o k e d a n d s e e n t h e

e v a l u a t i o n o f t h e v a r io u s r e p o r ts t h a t h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d fr o m y o u r
v e t ti n g o ff ic e r s ?
10

M S D L A M I N I: L o o k i t is – w e a r e t a l k i n g o f m o r e th a n 1 0 0 n a m e s t h a t
had to be vetted.

So I think Advocate Hofmeyr to ask me on a

p a r t ic u l a r c a s e n o w …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I a m a c tu a lly n o t i n t e r e s te d i n a p a r t ic u l a r
c a s e . W h a t I a m in t e r e s t e d i n is w e o n ly h a d a c c e s s to M s O li t z k i a n d
a Mr M o o n s a m y w h o s e a ff i d a v i t w i ll b e r e f e r r e d t o l a t e r to d a y. A n d t h e y
t o l d u s t h e ty p e o f q u e s ti o n s t h e y w e r e a s k e d a n d M s O li t z k i s a i d s h e
c h e c k e d w i t h tw o o th e r o f t h e m a n a g e r s w h o h a d b e e n s u b j e c te d t o
s e c u r i ty v e tt i n g . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m u c h b e t t e r fo r u s o f c o u r s e i f w e
h a d g o t it fr o m t h e a g e n c y. B u t w h a t I a m s a y in g t o y o u is h e r e v id e n c e
20

a n d th a t o f h e r c o ll e a g u e s w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e o n ly a s k e d f o u r o r f iv e
q u e s t io n s i n t h e p o ly g r a p h t e s t .

Is t h a t c u s t o m a r y to a s k s u c h a f e w

n u m b e r o f q u e s ti o n s ?
M S D L A M I N I:

L e t m e ju s t s a y – c a n – m a y b e I p a y a t t e n t i o n to t h a t

b e c a u s e I a m n o t a p r o f e s s io n a l p o l y g r a p h e r s o I t h in k o n e w o u l d h a v e
t o l o o k w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e . I t h i n k th a t i s w h a t I c a n s a y f o r n o w.

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CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s p u t t h e q u e s t io n l ik e t h is .

Do you

c o n d u c t p o ly g r a p h te s t s a s p a r t o f y o u r d u ti e s o r h a v e y o u d o n e t h a t in
t h e p a s t?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I d o n o t.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h e r e is – t h e r e a r e s ta n d a r d

q u e s t io n s t h a t a r e a s k e d a t – a t a p o ly g r a p h t e s t ?
M S D L A M I N I: O f c o u r s e y e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S D L A M I N I: T h e r e a r e s t a n d a r d q u e s ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I:

T h a t a r e a s k e d a t a p o l y g r a p h e x a m i n a ti o n . Ye s t h e r e

are.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do – do you have an idea how many the standard

q u e s t io n s a r e m o r e o r le s s ? 1 0 , 2 0 , 5 0 , 2 0 0 ?
M S D L A M I N I: L e t u s lo o k a t a b o u t 7 / 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
M S D L A M I N I: L e t u s lo o k a t a b o u t 7 / 8 .
20

CHAIRPERSON: About 7/8?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: 7 or 8?
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Those would be the standard questions.
M S D L A M I N I: T h o s e w o u l d b e t h e s t a n d a r d – y e s .

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CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e p e r s o n c o n d u c ti n g t h e te s t c o u ld a s k

a d d it i o n a l q u e s ti o n s ?
M S D L A M I N I: E x a c tl y y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i n te r ms o f a s k i n g a d d i ti o n a l
q u e s t io n s t h o s e c o n d u c t in g t h e t e s ts n o r ma ll y a s k n o t m o r e t h a n a
c e r t a i n n u m b e r o f a d d it i o n a l q u e s t io n s o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u w o u ld
not know?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I w o u ld n o t k n o w. I w o u ld n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w.
10

M S D L A M I N I: B u t a l l I c a n s a y i s e a c h c a s e i s tr e a te d o n m e r i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n i ts o w n ?
M S D L A M I N I: O n i ts o w n y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e s ta n d a r d q u e s t io n s a b o u t 7 o r 8 ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e s t a n d a r d s q u e s ti o n s a r e t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: A s g u i d in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S D L A M I N I: A s t h e q u e s ti o n s fr o m v e t ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

M S D L A M I N I:

So the polygraph examiner concerned would treat that

case on merit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir I a m i n d e b t e d .

M s D l a m in i

a ft e r to d a y i t w o u ld b e u s e f u l fo r th e c o m m i s s io n a ls o t o b e p r o v i d e d

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w i t h t h o s e s t a n d a r d p o l y g r a p h q u e s ti o n s .
M S D L A M I N I: Q u e s ti o n s y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d it t h e o n e s y o u h a v e
g iv e n u s a r e t h e g u i d e li n e q u e s ti o n s fo r t h e i n i ti a l i n te r v i e w, c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I th i n k t h o s e a r e t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t w e g a v e t o y o u .

T h o s e a r e th e q u e s ti o n s I a m r e f e r r i n g t o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Oh because those are about more than 100

q u e s t io n s . S o – a n d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e a t th e p o l y g r a p h
s t a g e t h e r e a r e o n l y 7 o r 8 , is th a t r i g h t?
10

M S D L A M I N I: S t a n d a r d o n e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s ta n d a r d o n e s .
M S D L A M I N I: S t a n d a r d o n e s .
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p e r s o n c o n d u c ti n g t h e t e s t is a ll o w e d …
M S D L A M I N I: C a n g o f u r t h e r.
M S D L A M I N I: To a s k m o r e ?

20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e is a l i m i t a s
to how many?
M S D L A M I N I: N o I – th e r e is n o li m i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: T h e r e is n o li m i t .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d n o t fi n d i n t h o s e g u i d e l in e q u e s t io n s a n y
q u e s t io n

r e l a te d

to

whether

the

person

had

leaked

c o n fi d e n t ia l

in f o r m a ti o n – S A A i n f o r m a ti o n t o o t h e r p a r ti e s . Ar e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t
b e i n g a s t a n d a r d q u e s ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: I a m n o t a w a r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s h o u l d h a v e a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n d i ff e r e n t ly. I s
t h a t a s ta n d a r d q u e s t i o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
10

M S D L A M I N I: I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w a n t t o s u g g e s t to y o u i t c o u l d n o t b e

b e c a u s e i t i s s p e c i fi c t o S A A c o n fi d e n t i a l in f o r m a ti o n . S o it c o u l d n o t
b e a s t a n d a r d q u e s ti o n f o r p o ly g r a p h s , c o u ld i t ?
M S D L A M I N I : L o o k I a m t r y in g t o – t o r e c a l l t h e q u e s t io n s n o w a s y o u
a s k in g m e . S o I d o n o t w a n t t o s a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o th a t i s …
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is s t a n d a r d th a t i s n o t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l …
M S D L A M I N I: B e c a u s e th e n y o u g o i n g t o s a y, I s a i d i t i s s ta n d a r d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o , n o , n o .
M S D L A M I N I: A n d i t d o e s n o t c o m e u p y o u s e e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms D l a m in i m i g h t I m a k e t h e s u g g e s ti o n . W e

v e r y c l o s e to t h e lu n c h b r e a k .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y b e I c o u l d a s k if y o u w o u l d d u r i n g t h e lu n c h
b r e a k j u s t g o o v e r t h o s e g u id e l i n e q u e s t i o n s a g a i n .
M S D L A M I N I: D o w e h a v e t h e m h e r e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o in d e e d . T h e y a r e t h e o n e s t h a t w e – I
u n d e r s t a n d y o u s a i d w e r e t h o s e t h a t w e r e a tt a c h e d fr o m p a g e 4 3 , is
that correct?
M S D L A M I N I: P a g e 4 3 . A r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t th e v e t ti n g q u e s ti o n s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
10

M S D L A M I N I: O h n o t th e p o ly g r a p h q u e s t i o n s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o I t h o u g h t t h a t is w h a t w e j u s t r e s o lv e d .

I

u n d e r s t o o d t h e s e n o t t o b e th e p o ly g r a p h q u e s ti o n s , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o t h e s e a r e n o t p o ly g r a p h q u e s t io n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s s o t h a t i s w h y I s a i d c o u l d y o u p l e a s e

p r o v i d e t h o s e to u s a f t e r t o d a y.
MS DLAMINI:

O h y e s I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d t h e p o ly g r a p h q u e s ti o n s a r e

here because I was going to go through it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w e w e r e a t c r o s s p u r p o s e s . T h a n k y o u s o
much.
20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t th e n j u s t o v e r t h e l u n c h b r e a k i f y o u c a n
r e fl e c t o n i t a n d w h e t h e r th e q u e s t i o n o f l e a k i n g S A A c o n f i d e n ti a l
in f o r m a ti o n is a s t a n d a r d p o ly g r a p h q u e s t i o n . W e w o u ld b e i n d e b t e d i f
y o u c o u ld a s s is t u s a f t e r t h e lu n c h b r e a k w it h th a t .
M S D L A M I N I: H o w ? C o u l d y o u g iv e m e m o r e t i m e ?

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I u n d e r s ta n d i f y o u c a n n o t d o i t .
M S D L A M I N I: A lr i g h t j a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja it …
M S D L A M I N I: N o I c a n n o t d o it n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u c a n n o t d o i t I th o u g h t I w o u l d a s k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i f y o u s a y y o u w o u ld n o t b e a b l e to …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

G e t th e a n s w e r w i t h i n a n h o u r – w i t h i n t h e l u n c h

b r e a k t h a t is fi n e .
10

M S D L A M I N I: N o A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r I w i ll …
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t – w h a t y o u h a v e a c c e s s to

and what you do not have access to.
M S D L A M I N I: A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r I w o u ld – I a m n o t i n t h e p o s i ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r s to o d .
M S D L A M I N I: To o b ta i n t h a t i n f o r m a t io n n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I u n d e r s ta n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u c a n p r o v i d e i t l a te r ?
M S D L A M I N I: I c a n p r o v id e i t la t e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o e x p l a i n m y u r g e n c y i n r e l a ti o n to t h i s .
20

I t w a s t h e m a t te r t h a t w e a s k e d b e tr a v e r s e d i n th e a ffi d a v i t t o d a y a n d
w e d o n o t h a v e a g r e a t d e a l o f ti m e in t h is c o m m i s s i o n .
understand

your

understand that.

evidence

to

be

it was

o v e r lo o k e d

and

And I
I f u ll y

B u t i f a f te r t o d a y y o u c o u l d p r o v i d e u s w i th t h a t

in f o r m a ti o n w e w o u ld b e g r a te f u l .
M S D L A M I N I: O k a y.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

I s i t t h e k i n d o f in f o r m a t io n y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o

provide tomorrow?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir I i n d i c a t e d – w e a l m o s t a t th e lu n c h

break.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t w e h a v e a lo t o f l o g is ti c s f o r th e n e x t

w i t n e s s . C a n I s a y i n r e s p e c t o f M s D l a m i n i w e w o u l d n e e d t o r e tu r n a
b i t a f te r l u n c h b u t n o t f o r v e r y lo n g I a m r e a lly i n t h e c o n c l u d i n g
s e c t io n s o f t h e q u e s ti o n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e f a ir ly c o n f id e n t t h a t w e w o u l d c o m p l e te
t h e s e c o n d w it n e s s s t il l t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t t h e r e is t h e a p p l ic a ti o n fo r th e s e c o n d

witness’ evidence to be given in-camera. My proposal was that we deal
20

w i t h i t b e f o r e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t s o t h a t l o g is ti c s r e la t e d t o h i m
could be dealt with over lunch.

I a m j u s t s l i g h t ly c o n c e r n e d f r o m a

m e s s a g e I h a v e g iv e n t h a t w e m a y n o t h a v e t h e a ff id a v i t a t t h is p o i n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja if they are ready I can deal with it now?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h w e s e e m t o h a v e a v e r s i o n t h a t h a s n o t y e t
been redacted.

I t is q u it e a p r o c e s s t o r e d a c t .

Page 103 of 190

B u t fo r t h e p u r p o s e s

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
n o w – d o w e h a v e a c o p y t h a t – C h a ir w e h a v e a n u n - r e d a c t e d c o p y
w h ic h i f a ll w e d o is h a n d i t u p t o y o u a n d i t i s m o v e d u n - r e d a c t e d m a y
n o t b e a p r o b l e m i n o r d e r t o f a c i li t a te i t n o w. B u t if w e d o r e q u ir e t h e
r e d a c t e d c o p i e s I – I j u s t u n d e r s t a n d l o g is t ic a ll y t h a t h a s n o t h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w a s t h e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e o n e t h a t w o u ld r e f e r t o
him as Mr Y?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I – I am going to have to hand over to my

le a r n e d fr i e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e i t is th e ir a p p lic a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja let me …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e a r w h a t h e h a s t o s a y. Ms D l a m in i y o u m a y le a v e
t h e w i t n e s s s t a n d f o r n o w. Yo u w i ll c o m e b a c k a f te r lu n c h .
M S D L A M I N I: F o r n o w ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s f o r n o w. O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

20

C h a ir

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W h a t w e h a d d o n e w a s t o p r e p a r e th e

a p p lic a ti o n i n Mr Y ’s n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

His real name.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

B u t w h a t w e h a d s o u g h t i n t h e N o t ic e o f

M o t io n w a s t h a t h e b e r e f e r r e d to a s Y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

S o t h e a p p lic a ti o n is in M r X ’s f u ll n a m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Y ’s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

M r Y ’s f u l l n a m e a s C h a ir p e r s o n i n d ic a te d

e a r l ie r t h a t i t s h o u l d b e b r o u g h t i n h is n a m e . B u t t h e c o u r t – th e o r d e r
t h a t w e p r o p o s e d to h a n d u p r e fe r s to h i m a s M r Y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o w h a t I m e a n t w a s I d id n o t w a n t a n a p p li c a t io n
10

w i t h o u t a n y n a m e b u t I d i d n o t m e a n th a t y o u h a v e g o t t o p u t in t h e
a p p lic a ti o n h is r e a l n a m e .

I – when I said Mr Y I meant that in the

h e a d i n g i t c o u l d s a y M r Y – A p p l ic a n t . A n d th e n i n th e a ffi d a v i t w h a t I
w a s s a y i n g h e c o u ld s a y, I , t h e u n d e r s ig n e d M r Y b la , b la , b la a n d t h e n
i m m e d i a t e ly e x p l a in t h a t M r Y is n o t m y tr u e n a m e .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t fo r p u r p o s e s o f t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s I a s k fo r l e a v e
t h a t I b e r e f e r r e d to a s M r Y b la , b l a , b l a . T h a t is t h e k in d o f th in g I
w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
20

C a n I p r o p o s e g iv e n t h e lo g is ti c a l is s u e s ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W e h a v e o f c o u r s e in th e N o ti o n o f M o ti o n

s o u g h t th a t h e b e r e f e r r e d t o a s M r Y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

A n d I b e l ie v e th a t C h a ir p e r s o n ’s c o n c e r n s c a n

b e d e a l t w i th b y w a y o f t h e r e d a c te d v e r s io n a s i t w a s th e i n te n ti o n

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
m u c h e a r l ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

B u t t h e a ff id a v it i n t h e s e n s e is i n h is f u l l

name.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:

T h a t is t h e a p p l ic a t io n – t h a t is t h e a ffi d a v i t

t h a t w i ll n o t b e m a d e a v a il a b l e to t h e p u b li c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:
10

B u t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e – o f th e o r d e r

d e a li n g w i t h h is a p p l ic a ti o n – w i t h h i s – w i t h h o w h is e v i d e n c e w o u l d b e
d e a l w it h w e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o h i m a s M r Y t h e A p p l ic a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

S o th e c o n c e r n w h e r e y o u – C h a ir p e r s o n s a y s

it s h o u l d r e f e r a s M r Y w e c a n s i m p ly ju s t d e a l w i t h t h a t b y w a y o f t h e
r e d a c t e d v e r s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h a t – w h a t I c a n d o – b u t t h e in f o r m a t io n i n th e
a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t h a n d e d u p i s i t t h e s a m e a s th e in f o r m a ti o n
in t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a n d e d u p i n th e m o r n i n g ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I:
20

Ye s . Ye s b u t w h a t w e h a d d o n e b e c a u s e w e

h a d p r e p a r e d a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t d e a l in g a m o n g s t o th e r s t h e f a c t
t h a t Mr Y u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t a l t h o u g h h i s i d e n t it y a n d d e t a ils w i ll b e
p r o t e c t e d t h a t p r o t e c ti o n d o e s n o t c o v e r t h e v e r s i o n t h a t is e x p l a i n e d i n
h is s t a t e m e n t o n w h ic h h e w i ll b e l e d .

W e j u s t s i m p l y d e a l t w i th th a t

a n d w e a ls o a d d e d a r e q u e s t t h a t h e s h o u l d j u s t b e r e f e r r e d t o a s M r Y
f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s a l t h o u g h Mr Y i s n o t h i s f u l l n a m e .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w y o u w o u ld k n o w t h a t I d e a l t w i t h a n a p p l ic a ti o n

w h ic h m i g h t b e a lo n g th e s a m e li n e s tw o d a y s a g o . T h e o r d e r t h a t y o u
had put up in the morning seemed to be wider than the order that I
granted two days ago.

B u t I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n g i v e n a

copy of the order that I made two days ago.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: And has the draft order that you have put up now ..
10

A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

T h a t is t h a t …

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t – is i t e x a c tl y t h e s a m e a s th e o t h e r o n e o r n o t ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

N o i s a s w e r e c e iv e d i t fr o m t h e e v id e n c e

le a d e r s w h ic h is in li n e w i th M r X ’s – w i t h t h e o n e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n
m a d e i n r e la t i o n t o M r X .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W e h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n t o th a t b e in g m a d e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u – y o u e s s e n ti a l ly s e e k t h e s a m e k i n d o f
order?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
20

Ye s M r C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

T h a t w o u l d f a c il i t a te t h e r e s o lu t io n o f t h is .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

I t c o v e r s a l l o u r c o n c e r n s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J u s t to b e – m a y b e I t h i n k – I t h i n k m a y b e I –
if t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a v e p u t u p is e s s e n t ia ll y th e s a m e a s t h e o n e

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
t h a t y o u h a d g i v e n m e i n th e m o r n in g – i f t h e y a r e t h e s a m e I a m q u i t e
h a p p y n o t t o u s e t h e o n e t h a t h a s g o t h i s n a m e a n d u s e t h e o n e th a t
d o e s n o t h a v e h i s n a m e o n t h e b a s i s th a t i t w i ll b e a m e n d e d
a p p r o p r i a t e ly a f te r I h a v e – I h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e a p p l ic a t i o n .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

That can be done Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That can be done?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W e w i ll ju s t s i m p l y ju s t …

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
10

C o r r e c t i t l a te r o n a n d ta k e o u t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e t h i s b a c k t h e n t o – t o h i m . S o b a s ic a l ly y o u w i ll
e n s u r e t h a t t h e a p p lic a ti o n – t h e a p p li c a n t is Mr Y i s r e f le c te d a s Mr Y.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W e w i ll d o s o C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t c e r ta in ly n o w t h e a p p li c a t io n c a n b e ta k e n t o b e
b r o u g h t b y M r Y.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

A n d w e w o u ld – i f y o u a r e s o i n c l i n e d w o u l d –

w e w o u ld m o v e f o r t h e o r d e r a s h a s b e e n p r o p o s e d b y t h e e v i d e n c e
le a d e r s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
CHAIRPERSON:

It does cover all the…

L e t m e s e e – w h a t t h e b a s is s i m p ly th a t – w a s th e

b a s is f o r th is k i n d o f o r d e r a r is i n g fr o m M r Y ’s e m p lo y m e n t ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d g iv e n is n a t u r e o r th e

n a t u r e o f h i s – o f h i s w o r k w it h in t h e a g e n c y.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I : I t h i n k t h a t i s c o v e r e d a t p a r a g r a p h 3
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

We have just handed up to you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o I r e m e m b e r. I t h i n k t h a t th e – t h e is s u e
o f N o t ic e is i t d e a l t w i t h in t h e a ffi d a v i t n o tic e t o i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s ?
10

H o w is i t d e a l t w i t h ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

C h a ir w e h a d l e ft t h a t t o t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s

s e e i n g t h a t t h e y w o u ld b e t h e o n e to n o t if y a s t h e r u l e s r e q u ir e t h a t
t h e y w o u l d n o ti f y a n y o n e i m p l ic a te d .

W e d o n o t a d d r e s s th e i s s u e o f

i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s b u t w e b e l i e v e t h a t s h o u l d t h e r e b e a n e e d fo r t h e
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s t o – w o u l d lik e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e M r Y th e y w o u l d
f o ll o w th e p r o c e d u r e o u t li n e d in t h e r u l e s a n d t h a t lo g i s tic a l is s u e s c a n
b e d e a l t w i th b e t w e e n t h e m a n d t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r s b u t f o r t h e
p u r p o s e s o f t h a t I t h i n k t h a t c o u l d a ls o b e a d d r e s s e d b y t h e – b y th e Y
a p p lic a ti o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H m .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t. L e t m e ju s t c h e c k w h o w il l a d d r e s s t h e
is s u e o f n o ti c e w i t h m e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d m a y I ju s t b e f o r e I d o t h a t r a is e o n e p o i n t
b e c a u s e m y l e a r n e d f r i e n d d o e s n o t k n o w t h e p r e c is e t e r m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e o r d e r w e g a v e i n r e s p e c t o f Mr X .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e o n e a d d i ti o n i f I c o u l d j u s t b e – p a s s a

c o p y. C h a ir i f y o u ju s t l o o k a t t h e d r a f t o r d e r t h a t h a s b e e n h a n d e d t o
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n d e d u p . Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e – t h e p a r a g r a p h 2 o n Mr X ’s o r d e r o n ly

r e q u e s t e d t h a t h i s n a m e n o t b e d is c lo s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t b u t th e r e q u e s t o f th is w i tn e s s is th a t h is
n a m e a n d o t h e r id e n ti fy in g fe a t u r e s a ls o n o t b e d i s c l o s e d .

So I just

w a n t e d t o d r a w to y o u r a t t e n ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : My – th e t w o I h a v e o n t h is d r a f t o r d e r r e a d s :
“The

w i tn e s s

name

s h a ll

not

be

d i s c lo s e d

or

p u b lis h e d in a n y m a n n e r. ”
T h a t is th e o n e .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n u m b e r 2 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a n d I h a v e t h e w r o n g v e r s io n th e n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e th a t w a s ju s t h a n d e d u p n o w.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e – le t m e ju s t c la r i fy.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is w r i t t e n M r Y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a p p lic a n t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h e n u m e r o u s v e r s i o n s t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u g g e s ts y o u a n d I h a v e g o t t h e w r o n g o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d I j u s t r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d w e w i ll m a k e
10

s u r e th a t t h e r e a r e c o p i e s s u ff ic i e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is t h e r e n o t a n o t h e r c o p y fr o m th e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a n o th e r c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t it r e f e r s to t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y a s

t h e a p p lic a n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e h a v e r e s o l v e d t h a t .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . If I c a n s i m p ly h a n d y o u u p
t h e c o r r e c t w o r d i n g fo r p a r a g r a p h 2 ?

B u t w e w i ll a f t e r t h i s C h a ir

e n s u r e t h a t it c o r r e c t ly r e fl e c ts t h e a p p li c a n t a s M r Y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r t h i s w a s t h e d r a f t o r d e r th a t w a s h a n d e d

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
t o m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d t h i s m o r n i n g fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr io r t o y o u r e n g a g e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t M r Y n e e d i n g t o b e t h e a p p li c a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o a ll I w o u l d lik e to d r a w y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o
is t h a t p a r a g r a p h 2 is b r o a d e r t h a n i t w a s f o r Mr X .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e t h e r e it is – t h e w it n e s s ’ n a m e , h i s
p o s i ti o n w i th in t h e a g e n c y a n d t h e n a tu r e o f h is d u t ie s s h o u l d n o t b e
d is c l o s e d i n h is e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I n e e d e d t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o – j u s t to
t h a t d is c r e p a n c y s o th a t t h e r e w a s n o m is u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o it s b e i n g
a r e p lic a o f M r X ’s o r d e r. B u t t h e n o n th e q u e s t io n o f n o tic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e – th e …
CHAIRPERSON: So other than that part…

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e th e s a m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e n o n t h e q u e s t io n o f N o ti c e to i m p l ic a t e d

p e r s o n s . Th e s te p s th a t w e r e t a k e n b y t h e le g a l te a m o n r e c e i p t o f M r

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Y ’s m a in a ffi d a v i t p lu s t h i s a p p li c a t io n w a s to s e n d R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e s t o
a l l p e r s o n s i m p l ic a t e d i n t h e m a i n a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d a ll t h a t w e d i d i n t h e N o t ic e w a s w e

c o n ti n u e d to m a i n t a in t h e c o n fi d e n t ia li ty a b o u t t h e w i tn e s s ’ i d e n ti t y.
A n d s o r a th e r t h a n r e f e r r i n g to h i m b y n a m e w e i n d i c a t e d in th e N o t ic e
t h a t a w i tn e s s w h o w i ll m a k e a p p lic a ti o n to h a v e h is i d e n t it y n o t
d is c l o s e d w il l i m p lic a t e y o u i n th e fo ll o w i n g r e s p e c t s .

S o th a t p r o c e s s

h a s t a k e n i ts c o u r s e a n d i t w a s d o n e ti m e o u s l y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d I c a n t e l l y o u t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d n o

responses.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e n u n le s s c o u n s e l f o r M r Y h a s a n y th in g e l s e I a m
q u i te h a p p y t o m a k e a n – m a k e t h e o r d e r h e r e ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

C h a ir p e r s o n w e w o u l d h a p p y a s w e l l.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :
20

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I n r e s p e c t o f t h e a p p lic a ti o n b r o u g h t b y Mr Y I
g r a n t t h e f o l lo w i n g o r d e r.
1 . T h e w i tn e s s i s t o b e r e f e r r e d to d u r in g h is e v i d e n c e t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n a n d a f te r h is e v id e n c e i n s o fa r a s t h e c o m m is s i o n is
c o n c e r n e d a s Mr Y.
2 . T h e w i t n e s s ’ n a m e , h i s p o s i ti o n w i t h i n t h e S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
a n d t h e n a t u r e o f h i s d u ti e s s h a l l n o t b e d i s c l o s e d o r p u b lis h e d i n
a n y m a n n e r.
3 . N o p e r s o n m a y t a k e o r p u b l is h a n y p h o t o g r a p h , i m a g e o r
a p p e a r a n c e o f t h e w it n e s s n o r h a v e h is p h o t o g r a p h o r i m a g e o r
a p p e a r a n c e p u b lis h e d in a n y w a y n o r b r o a d c a s t a n y v i d e o o f t h e
witness.
4 . T h e w i tn e s s n e e d n o t p r e s e n t – n e e d n o t b e p r e s e n t a t t h e
c o m m i s s io n ’s h e a r in g v e n u e w h e n g i v i n g e v id e n c e – h i s e v i d e n c e
a n d m a y g i v e h i s e v i d e n c e fr o m a s e c r e t l o c a ti o n .
10

5. No

person

o th e r

th a n

the

C h a ir p e r s o n ,

members

of

the

c o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m , t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s s a f e ty a n d s e c u r i ty
a d v is o r, t h o s e n e c e s s a r y t o a s s is t t h e w i t n e s s w h e n h e g iv e s
evidence or

a n o th e r

p e r s o n s p e c if ic a l l y d e s i g n a t e d b y

th e

C h a ir p e r s o n w il l b e p e r m i tt e d t o e n te r t h e s e c r e t l o c a ti o n w i t h o u t
t h e p r i o r w r it t e n p e r m is s i o n o f th e C h a i r p e r s o n .
6 . A n a u d i o li n k fr o m t h e s e c r e t l o c a ti o n w i ll b e p r o v i d e d s o t h a t th e
w i t n e s s ’ e v id e n c e c a n b e h e a r d i n th e h e a r in g r o o m w h e n h e
g iv e s i t.
7 . T h i s o r d e r m a y b e a m e n d e d o r s u p p l e m e n t e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
20

a t a n y t i m e i f i n h is o p i n io n t h a t is n e c e s s a r y to e n s u r e th e n o n d is c l o s u r e o f t h e w i t n e s s ’ n a m e a n d a p p e a r a n c e o r t o e n s u r e
f a ir n e s s t o a n y i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n .
T h a t is th e o r d e r.
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u w i ll m a k e t h e n e c e s s a r y a m e n d m e n ts

O k a y.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
o n p a g e 1 i n t e r m s o f t h e – o f w h o t h e a p p l ic a n t i s ?
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

W il l d o s o C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V D AV I D M T S W E N I :

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We are going to adjourn. I am tempted to
say maybe we should resume at quarter past two.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h a t w i ll b e h e l p f u l C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Because of…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L o g is t ic s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : L o g i s t ic s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e w i ll a d j o u r n n o w a n d w e a r e g o i n g t o r e s u m e
a t q u a r te r p a s t t w o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

M s D l a m i n i , b e f o r e w e b r o k e fo r

t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t w e w e r e o n p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t - E X H I B I T
D D 2 4 . D o y o u h a v e t h a t i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s . I d o .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t w e h a d b e e n d e a li n g w i t h w a s y o u r

f o ll o w u p w i t h M s My e n i w h e n y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i m p a c ts o n t h e
in t e g r i ty a n d p r o g r e s s o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d t h e n y o u i n d i c a t e d t h a t th e r e
h a d b e e n q u i t e a n i m p r o v e m e n t a f te r t h a t . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u in d ic a t e o n p a g e 1 3 - t o w a r d s t h e

b o t t o m a t p a r a g r a p h 3 .1 5 . Th a t f in a l a r e p o r t w a s p r e p a r e d . I a s s u m e
t h a t i s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e v e t t in g . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t A d v o c a t e M e y r - H o f m e y r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And

it

was

-

and

it was

p r e s e n te d

to

M i n is t e r M a h l o b o in J a n u a r y 2 0 1 7 . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is r i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w th a t w a s a t t a c h e d to y o u r a ffi d a v it .

So I

w o u ld li k e t o j u s t t a k e y o u t o t h a t p r e s e n ta t io n a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t
page 50 - 5-0.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h is a p r e s e n t a ti o n y o u p r e p a r e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . T h is is th e p r e s e n t a ti o n I p r e p a r e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

A n d i t s a y s o n th e fir s t p a g e - p a g e 5 0 t h e r e

that:
“ I t w a s p r e s e n t e d b y Pr o j e c t L e a d e r … ”
A n d I t a k e th a t t o b e a r e fe r e n c e t o y o u r s e lf . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ … o n 1 7 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 7 . ”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u p r e s e n t th i s p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I - i t w a s f o r w a r d e d t o t h e o ff ic e o f o u r M i n is tr y b y

m y s e l f . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d y o u - d i d y o u e v e r a c t u a l ly p r e s e n t i t a t
a n y m e e t in g a t S A A o r o t h e r w i s e ?
M S D L A M I N I: A t S - a t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S A A .
M S D L A M I N I: S A A ? N o . N o .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . S o w h a t w a s t h is p r e p a r e d fo r ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e B o a r d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e B o a r d ?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e B o a r d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d e s p i te it s a y i n g “ p r e s e n te d b y ” …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t a c t u a l l y p r e s e n t it . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . I d i d n o t a c t u a l ly p r e s e n t i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s p r e s e n t e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . I d o n o t k n o w.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, b u t th is w a s y o u r f i n a l …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y. W o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t to s a y p r e s e n te d b y

w a s m e a n t to b e p r e p a r e d b y ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s h e l p f u l . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is h e l p fu l . T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w a s p r e p a r e d b y y o u …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h is is a t t h e c o n c l u s io n o f th e v e t ti n g

e x e r c is e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: A b s o lu t e l y. Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I w o u l d li k e t o j u s t t a k e y o u t o a f e w i te m s
w i t h i n t h is . M s D l a m i n i , w e h a v e a lr e a d y t r a v e r s e d th e r e s p e c t i n w h ic h
10

y o u r p r o je c t p l a n h a d i d e n t if i e d th e o b je c t i v e o f t h e v e t t in g e x e r c i s e . I
do not suggest that we go over that again.
M S D L A M I N I: O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u h a v e h a d a l o t o f q u e s t i o n s , b u t I d o ju s t

w a n t t o n o t e f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d t h a t t h e s a m e o b je c tiv e is
r e c o r d e d w h e n y o u c a m e t o f i n a lis e t h i s r e p o r t o n th e v e t t in g e x e r c is e
a n d y o u w i ll fi n d th a t a t p a g e 5 3 .

D o y o u s e e t h e r e th e s e c o n d

p a r a g r a p h r e a d s i n t h e s a m e t e r m s th a t y o u r p r o j e c t p l a n r e a d ? S o r r y.
Yo u m i g h t - p a g e 5 3 - 5 - 3 .
M S D L A M I N I: 5 - 3 , o h . Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e t h a t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I h a v e t h a t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h t h e r e r e a d - I t h i n k i n
e x a c tl y t h e s a m e w o r d s .
“ T h e o b j e c ti v e i s t o e n s u r e t h a t a l l c l a s s i fi e d a n d
s e n s i t iv e d o c u m e n ts w i t h i n …

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“ I th i n k i t i s a g a i n s u p p o s e d t o b e …
“ … S A A a r e a c c e s s e d b y p e r s o n a l w i t h v a l i d s e c u r i ty
c le a r a n c e s . ”
Do you see that?
M S D L A M I N I: I s e e t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o b o th a t t h e i n c e p t io n a n d a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n
o f t h e v e t t in g p r o c e s s y o u d e s c r i b e i ts o b j e c ti v e in t h e s e t e r m s . I s t h a t
correct?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n I w o u l d li k e to g o t o p a g e 6 0 - 6 - 0 .
M S D L A M I N I: I a m w i t h y o u . I a m w it h y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o a t th e to p o f t h a t p a g e y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e

p r o j e c t ’s s u c c e s s a n d y o u r e c o r d th e r e :
“ T h e p r o je c t’s s u c c e s s c o n t r i b u t e s i m m e n s e ly t o t h e
a g e n c y m e e ti n g i ts o b je c t iv e s .

In e s s e n c e 7 0

p e r c e n t o f E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t a n d s u p p o r t s ta ff
h a v e b e e n v e t t e d . C u r r e n tly th e r e a r e 8 5 c a s e s o f
20

w h ic h c l e a r a n c e h a v e b e e n c o n c l u d e d .

The cases

t h a t a r e n o t c o n c lu d e d a r e s ti ll u n d e r f u r t h e r
in v e s t i g a t io n s .

Th e r e w e r e n o s tr i k e s o r s e r i o u s

d is t u r b a n c e s r e p o r te d s in c e t h e p r o j e c t s t a r t e d . ”
Do you see that?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I s e e th a t .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ar e s t r ik e s a n d s e r io u s d i s tu r b a n c e s t h i n g s th a t
s o m e t i m e s d o o c c u r w h e n v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n s a r e c a r r i e d o u t?
M S D L A M I N I: I t h a s n e v e r o c c u r r e d A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r, b u t I w a s q u i t e
c a u ti o n s , b e c a u s e w i t h t h e S A A a n y t h i n g c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d . T h e r e
a r e u n i o n s i n v o lv e d . T h e r e m ig h t h a v e b e e n a - E x e c u t iv e s t h a t w o u ld
a p p r o a c h t h e u n i o n s t o s t a te w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s . S o t h a t i s w h y I h a d t o
in d i c a t e i t th e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Were - were you alerted to the fact that there

w a s d is s a ti s fa c t i o n o r c o n c e r n a m o n g s t t h e Ex e c u ti v e s t h a t m i g h t h a v e
10

le d th e m t o r a is e th e s e i s s u e s w i th t h e u n i o n s ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o ?
M S D L A M I N I: H m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u s t il l t h o u g h t i t n e c e s s a r y t o r e c o r d

that?
M S D L A M I N I:

Of course, because in terms of the work that we were

d o i n g t h e r e i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t n o t t o p u t t h e e n t it y u n d e r a n y u n d u e
s tr e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m .
20

M S D L A M I N I: S o it - i t c o m e s fr o m t h a t th in k i n g …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n th e p e n u l t i m a t e b u l l e t o n t h a t p a g e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Well

b e fo r e

you

move

away

fr o m

that

is s u e

M s H o f m e y r. I - I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d M s D l a m i n i w h a t th e r e l e v a n c e is

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o f t h a t s e n t e n c e in t h e c o n t e x t o f y o u r r e p o r t . T h e r e w e r e n o s tr ik e s o r
s e r io u s d is t u r b a n c e s r e p o r t e d . Yo u s a y s in c e t h e p r o j e c t s t a r t e d . S o
you

are

looking

at

during

th e

ti m e

-

d u r in g

th e

l i fe

of

the

p r o j e c t . M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e n o w a t t h e e n d . Yo u a r e p r e p a r i n g y o u r

report.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

P le a s e

h e lp

me

u n d e r s ta n d

why

s t r ik e s

and

d is t u r b a n c e s w o u l d b e r e l e v a n t t o p u t i n …
10

M S D L A M I N I: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is k i n d o f r e p o r t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

W e i n v it e d th e M e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t i n 2 0 1 5 a n d w e

e x p e r i e n c e d t h e - th e u n i o n w h o c i t e d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h
c e r t a i n is s u e s . S o t h a t d id h a v e a n i m p a c t in d e la y i n g th e w o r k . S o i t
w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r m e t o s t a te t h a t in t h i s i n s t a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i f y o u r - i f y o u h a d s a i d s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e
li n e s t h a t y o u a r e n o t a w a r e o f a n y b o d y w h o w a s u n h a p p y a b o u t t h e
p r o j e c t . T h a t - t h a t I w o u ld u n d e r s t a n d . Yo u r - y o u r r e f e r e n c e t o w h a t
h a p p e n e d i n P a r l ia m e n t I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d i t , b u t i n P a r l i a m e n t y o u a r e
20

n o t s a y i n g t h e r e w e r e s tr i k e s a n d d is t u r b a n c e s o r a t l e a s t y o u a r e n o t
s a y in g th e r e w e r e s tr ik e s . I t s e e m s t h a t s o m e u n h a p p i n e s s w a s t h e r e
…
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s tr i k e s .
M S D L A M I N I: A n y t h i n g p o s s i b l e m ig h t h a v e h a p p e n e d .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t - t h a t is t h e t h i n k in g th a t I h a d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S D L A M I N I: B e c a u s e i f e m p l o y e e s - a n y o t h e r p e r s o n e m p l o y e d i n a
S t a te o r g a n w h o i s n o t h a p p y.

T h e f ir s t c o n ta c t w o u ld b e t h e u n i o n s

a n d w h a t h a p p e n s a f te r t h a t t h e c o m p l a i n t s , t h e - t h e s tr ik e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W e ll I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t s tr ik e s .
10

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k le t u s m o v e o n .
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M s D la m i n i , t h e s e c o n d la s t
b u ll e t o n t h a t p a g e .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r e c o r d t h a t :
“ S A A r e p o r te d a n i m p r o v e m e n t o n t h e ir r e v e n u e
( a b o u t tw o b il li o n tu r n o v e r ) a s a r e s u lt o f t h e
v e t ti n g p r o j e c t . ”

20

W h e r e d i d y o u o b t a i n t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n fr o m ?
M S D L A M I N I: A s I i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e I h a d c o n ti n u o u s e n g a g e m e n t w i t h
t h e Ac t in g C E O a t t h e t i m e a n d I d i d a s k h i m t o s a y s i n c e th e i n c e p t io n
o f t h e p r o j e c t w h a t h a s b e e n th e d e v e l o p m e n t s .

Ar e th e r e a n y

i m p r o v e m e n t o r a n y o t h e r is s u e t h a t m u s t b e - t h a t w e m u s t t a k e n o t e
o f. S o i t c o m e s f r o m - f r o m t h a t .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u m a k e th a t r e q u e s t t o h i m v e r b a ll y ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d h e c o m m u n ic a t e t h is i n f o r m a ti o n t o y o u
v e r b a l ly ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d h e s p e c i fi c a l ly s a i d t h a t t h e r e w a s a R 2

b i ll io n tu r n o v e r th a t S A A h a d a c h ie v e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h i s v e t t in g
project?
M S D L A M I N I: H e d i d n o t s a y “ a s a r e s u l t ” , b u t h e s a id t h e y h a v e s e e n
10

s o m e s h if t - a p o s i tiv e s h i f t i n te r ms o f th e r e v e n u e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id - w e r e y o u t h e o n e w h o t h e n w h e n y o u
d e s c r ib e d i t h e r e r e l a te d i t t o t h e v e t t in g p r o j e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s D la m i n i , o n w h a t p o s s i b le b a s i s c o u l d a

m o v e m e n t i n t h e t u r n o v e r o f S A A b e c a u s a l ly l i n k e d b a c k t o t h e v e t ti n g
project?
M S D L A M I N I: I m u s t s a y t h a t I d i d n o t h a v e a c c e s s to t h e f i n a n c i a ls a t
t h a t ti m e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
20

M S D L A M I N I:

B u t I k n o w t h a t i t i s in d i v id u a l s t h a t m a n i p u l a te s t h e

s y s te m . It i s in d i v i d u a ls t h a t a r e e n g a g e d i n m is m a n a g e m e n t o f f u n d s .
S o a n y p o s i tiv e s h i f t d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d I w o u l d s a y …
CHAIRPERSON:

N o Ms D l a m i n i p le a s e .

No.

No.

Please.

Please.

A r e y o u g o i n g t o p e r s is t i n s a y i n g t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h i s v e t t in g p r o c e s s
s u d d e n l y S A A g o t i t a R 2 b i ll i o n …

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M S D L A M I N I: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tu r n o v e r ?
M S D L A M I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n , c a n I e x p l a in p l e a s e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S D L A M I N I: C a n I e x p l a i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o s a y ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
CHAIRPERSON: That as a result of …
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is p r o j e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . I a m j u s t s a y in g t h e r e w a s a p o s it iv e s h i f t . M a y b e
it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n s ta t e d t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p o s i ti v e s h i ft ?
M S D L A M I N I: To s a y t h e r e w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: What happened as a result of this project?
M S D L A M I N I: T h e r e w a s s o m e r e v e n u e g e n e r a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e v e n u e g e n e r a ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is y o u r t h i n k i n g ?

20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O v e r th e p a g e y o u li s t s o m e o f th e o t h e r

i m p a c ts o f t h e p r o j e c t . Th e f ir s t o f th o s e a t p a g e 6 1 is th e r e s i g n a t io n
o f s e v e n E x e c u t iv e s M a n a g e r s . D o y o u s e e t h a t?
M S D L A M I N I: P a g e ?

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 1 .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o s e v e n E x e c u tiv e M a n a g e r s r e s i g n e d . Is t h a t
correct?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n o n t h e t h ir d b u l l e t o n t h a t p a g e y o u

record:
“ T h e g r e a t s u c c e s s o f th e S A A Ve t t in g Pr o j e c t h a s
r e s u l t e d in th e p r o je c t b e i n g e x t e n d e d t o o t h e r
e n t i ti e s w i t h i n S A A . ”

10

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h w e r e th o s e o th e r e n t i ti e s ?
M S D L A M I N I: W e n e v e r g o t t o v e t a n y o t h e r Ex e c u ti v e s w i th in t h e N N D T, b u t m y t h i n k in g w a s t h a t r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n fr o m
t h e fo r m e r C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w e m u s t v e t t h e p i lo t s . S o m y t h i n k in g w a s
in t e r m s o f t h e w o r k t h a t w e d i d th e r e it w a s o f h i g h s ta n d a r d t o a n
e x t e n t th a t th e r e - th e r e w a s a n e e d f o r u s t o a ls o v e t t h e o th e r g r o u p .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l l e t u s u n p a c k th a t a b i t .
M S D L A M I N I: H u h - u h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s a y t h e g r e a t s u c c e s s o f t h e S A A Ve t t i n g

P r o je c t. W h a t - w h a t w a s th e g r e a t s u c c e s s a b o u t i t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

T h e f a c t th a t w e w e r e a b le to a d v i c e in te r ms o f t h e

r is k s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w e r e y o u a b l e t o a d v ic e ?
M S D L A M I N I: O n - i n te r ms o f t h e r i s k s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t r is k s ?

W h a t a d v ic e w e r e y o u a b l e t o

g iv e ?
M S D L A M I N I: I t h i n k i t i s ta b l e d o n t h i s r e p o r t in t e r m s o f o u r fi n d i n g s
and recommendations.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. Ta k e m e to t h o s e if y o u w il l .
M S D L A M I N I:

I t i s o n p a g e - j u s t g i v e m e a s e c o n d . J u s t - j u s t g iv e

me a second.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u r e .
M S D L A M I N I:

B e c a u s e I s w e a r t h a t i s w h e r e t h e ir fi n d i n g s a n d

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . T h a t is w h e r e I a m t r y i n g t o g e t to .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fi n d i n g s o f th e p r o j e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where it is Ms Hofmeyr?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I - I m u s t s a y I d o n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is a c t u a ll y w h y …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e a s k e d f o r M s D l a m i n i ’s a s s is t a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a n i n d e x ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o .
M S D L A M I N I: J a . I t h i n k - ja . I t h in k m a y b e t h e r e is a …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a - t h e r e i s a …

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: T h e r e is s li d e . Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o r t o f c o n te n ts p a g e , b u t i t d o e s n o t g i v e a

r e fe r e n c e p o in t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To - t o - y e s .
M S D L A M I N I: J a . J a . I th i n k th e r e - th e r e is a l is t i n s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f - if t h e c o n te n t p a g e d o e s n o t h a v e f in d i n g s a s
a n it e m .

I d o n o t th in k y o u w i ll fi n d f i n d i n g s - a n y h e a d i n g s a y i n g

“ F in d in g s ” i n th e r e p o r t , b e c a u s e fi n d i n g s w o u l d h a v e b e e n q u i t e
important …
10

M S D L A M I N I: J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n c lu d e d i n t h e c o n te n t I

w o u ld i m a g i n e .
S D L A M I N I:

Hm.

Hm.

No.

I t h i n k I m u s t a c k n o w l e d g e th e m is t a k e

fr o m m y p a r t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I:

B e c a u s e t h e y - t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n th e r e .

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: B e c a u s e th a t i s w h a t I w a s r e fe r r i n g t o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I t h i n k it is th e m is t a k e f r o m t h e a t t a c h m e n t s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t w a s s u p p o s e d to b e i n . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o j u s t h e lp m e a g a i n .

great success of the project?

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W h a t th e n w a s t h e

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: T h e r e w e r e - t h e r e - th e r e i s a s l id e w h e r e w e a d v is e t h e
c li e n t in t e r m s o f t h e r is k s i d e n ti f ie d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . S o r r y. N o . T h a t I d o k n o w w h e r e t h a t is .
T h a t is a t p a g e 6 2 .
M S D L A M I N I: Is it p a g e 6 2 ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y. I h a d a ls o th o u g h t w e w e r e l o o k i n g f o r
fi n d i n g s , b u t t h is i s - I - is th is p a g e w h e r e th e ir r i s k s i d e n t i fi e d ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o . I t is n o t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e h e a d in g s a y s “ R is k s I d e n t i fi e d ” .
10

M S D L A M I N I: N o . D u r i n g t h e - t h e c o u r s e o f t h e p r o j e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . T h e s e w e r e t h e r is k s …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
M S D L A M I N I: B u t th e fi n a l …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I h a v e n o t s e e n t h a t .
M S D L A M I N I: J a . It is n o t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o …

20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n t h i s p r e s e n t a ti o n
s o m e r e c o r d a l o f t h e r is k s th a t y o u h a d …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d e n t i fi e d .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. Te l l u s n o w w h a t w e r e t h o s e r is k s ?
M S D L A M I N I: L e t m e t h i n k n o w. T h e y w e r e i n d i c a t io n s o f Ex e c u ti v e s
w h o h a d - le t m e t h i n k . C a n I p r o v i d e th o s e p le a s e ? C a n - c a n I g e t a
c h a n c e t o p r o v i d e t h o s e ? I a m t h in k i n g o u t o f m y h e a d . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

I t - i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n h e l p fu l f o r th e m t o b e

provided today …
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t le t u s j u s t g e t t h e e v id e n c e a s a t to d a y.
M S D L A M I N I: H u h - u h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u c a n n o t r e c a l l w h a t th e g r e a t s u c c e s s w a s

…
M S D L A M I N I: H m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e S A A Ve t t i n g E x e r c i s e ?
M S D L A M I N I: I w a n t to b e m o r e a c c u r a t e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
20

M S D L A M I N I: I n t e r m s o f w h a t I h a d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ta b le d d o w n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: R a t h e r th a n t a lk i n g fr o m m y h e a d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I t h i n k it is - i t is b e t te r t h a t w a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y a n d y o u s a y a t t h a t s a m e b u l le t :
“ T h e g r e a t s u c c e s s o f th e S A A Ve t t in g Pr o j e c t h a s
r e s u l t e d to t h e p r o j e c t b e i n g e x te n d e d t o o th e r
e n t i ti e s w i t h i n S A A . ”
T h a t w h e n I r e a d i t s u g g e s t s t o m e i t - i t i s s o m e t h in g th a t
has happened.

I t h a s r e s u l t e d i n th a t e x t e n s i o n .

Do you understand

t h a t i n th e s a m e w a y a s m e ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
M S D L A M I N I:

I u n d e r s t a n d i t i n a s e n s e t h a t I r e c e iv e d a - a n

in d i c a t io n to s a y w e a r e g o i n g t o r e q u e s t t h a t y o u v e t t h e o th e r - fo r
in s t a n c e t h e p il o ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . S o i t c o m e s fr o m t h a t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s e e .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w a s a n ti c i p a t in g a r e q u e s t t h a t w o u ld t h e n
be acted upon.
20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u t h o u g h t t h a t t h a t w o u l d b e a p o s i ti v e

r e s u l t o u t o f t h is p r o c e s s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ve r y m u c h .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: Ve r y m u c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M S D L A M I N I: J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u ld t h a t b e ? W h y w o u l d y o u w a n t t o v e t
p i lo ts ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o t s p e c i fic a lly p i l o t s … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s t h e r e q u e s t . W a s i t n o t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Th a t w a s th e r e q u e s t , b u t I a m s a y i n g m y t h i n k in g
10

is b e c a u s e th e t e a m w a s a b o v e b o a r d i n t e r m s o f o u r p r o c e s s e s .
t e r m s o f t h e w o r k t h a t w e s u p p o s e d to d o th e r e .

In

J u d g in g b y t h e f a c t

t h a t th e r e w e r e n o is s u e s th a t w e r e r a i s e d w it h th e o r g a n is a ti o n o r
m y s e l f d u r i n g t h e p e r io d t h a t w e w e r e t h e r e a n d t h e n i f n o w w e g e t a n
in d i c a t io n to s a y c a n w e e x t e n d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m .
M S D L A M I N I:

To v e t th is .

S o fr o m m y p a r t i t w o u l d s a y :

jo b w e l l

done.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m .
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t w a s m y th in k i n g .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w a s t h a t r e q u e s t fr o m t o v e t th e p i lo ts ?
M S D L A M I N I: I t c a m e fr o m t h e fo r m e r C h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M y e n i ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u i n te n d a t a n y p o i n t to d e te r m in e

w h e t h e r y o u c o u l d l a w f u l ly v e t t h e p il o ts o r w o u l d h e r r e q u e s t h a v e

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been enough?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . W e n e v e r g o t to d e li b e r a te o n t h a t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I:

P a r t ic u l a r is s u e , b e c a u s e m y f o c u s w a s m a i n l y o n - o n

the work at hand.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f w e g o t o p a g e 6 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g o in g b a c k t o t h e - t o p a g e 6 1 .
10

“ T h e g r e a t s u c c e s s o f th e S A A Ve t t in g Pr o j e c t h a s
r e s u l t e d to t h e p r o j e c t b e i n g e x te n d e d t o o th e r
e n t i ti e s w i t h i n S A A . ”
A r e y o u s a y in g t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e to t e l l u s w h a t t h e g r e a t s u c c e s s
w a s o f t h e p r o j e c t?

Yo u w a n t t o g o a n d h a v e a l o o k a t i t - a t s o m e

document?
M S D L A M I N I:

I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n i n t e r m s o f t h e fi n d i n g s a n d

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e a tt a c h e d t o th is r e p o r t .
T h e y a r e n o t h e r e t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No. Leave out the findings …
20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .

Here you say the great

s u c c e s s o f th e S A A Ve t t in g P r o j e c t h a s r e s u l t e d b la h , b l a h , b l a h .

So

t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t M s H o f m e y r a s k e d e a r li e r o n w a s w h a t is t h a t s u c c e s s
t h a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t h e r e a n d I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y y o u w a n t to
have a look at some document. So I am wondering whether you were

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
t h e le a d e r o f th is p r o j e c t …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t t e ll u s th is w a s th e - th e g r e a t s u c c e s s …
M S D L A M I N I: T h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e p r o je c t .
M S D L A M I N I:

I a m s a y i n g a s I k n o w t h e m , b u t it w o u l d b e b e t t e r t o

r e a d fr o m t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: C o n t a i n s t h a t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l m e t h e g r e a t s u c c e s s a s y o u k n o w i t e v e n i f i t is
n o t g o i n g t o b e e x a c tly a s d o c u m e n t e d s o m e w h e r e .
M S D L A M I N I: H u h - u h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s a - t h i s w a s a b ig p r o j e c t …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a n i m p o r ta n t p r o j e c t . Is i t n o t ?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . O f c o u r s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t i t i s g r e a t s u c c e s s

was if it had a great success.
M S D L A M I N I: F o r e x a m p le C h a ir p e r s o n w e w o u l d a d v is e S A A t o r e v is i t
20

t h e ir r e c r u i t m e n t s tr a t e g y, b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d fi n d th a t t h e E x e c u ti v e s
t h a t a r e a lr e a d y i n t h e s y s t e m t h e r e w a s n o c l a u s e i n t h e c o n tr a c t t o
s a y t h e y - t h e y w il l h a v e to u n d e r g o v e t ti n g . S e c o n d ly, i n te r ms o f t h e
m e a s u r e s s u c h a s t a k i n g a n o a th , d e c l a r a t io n o f - o f s e c r e c y s u c h a s le t m e t h i n k . T h o s e w e r e n o t u n d e r t a k e n w h e n t h e p e o p l e e n t e r e d th e
s y s te m .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is t h e …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Great success?
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t is t h e g r e a t s u c c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: I t m e a n s - b y th a t I m e a n w e h a v e b e e n a b le t o i n fl u e n c e
p o li c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C o u ld

you

not

have

given

those

two

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w i th o u t c o n d u c ti n g t h e v e tt i n g ?
M S D L A M I N I: N o . N o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Well let us take each of them.

s u g g e s t to y o u t h a t a ll y o u n e e d e d to d o w a s g o t o S A A .
m e e ti n g w i th t h e B o a r d a n d M a n a g e m e n t .

I want to
Have a

As k th e m w h e t h e r in t h e

t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c ts o f e m p l o y m e n t o f t h e e x is ti n g Ex e c u t iv e s th e y
h a d a c l a u s e t h a t r e q u ir e d t h e m t o b e s u b j e c t e d t o v e t t in g a n d i f t h e
a n s w e r i n th a t m e e ti n g w a s , n o . T h e r e a r e n o t . T h e n y o u c o u l d h a v e
20

g iv e n th a t a d v ic e o n th a t d a y. C o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I: I b e li e v e A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r y o u a r e t a k i n g a n a p p r o a c h
t h a t w o u ld b e s o r t o f a d h o c .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: I n t h is c a s e t h e r e w a s a p r o je c t in p l a c e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: A n d w e h a d t o d o a n i n v e s ti g a tiv e s y s te m a t ic a p p r o a c h
t o th e in d i v i d u a ls t h a t a r e a l r e a d y a t th e s tr a t e g ic l e v e l .

S o i n th a t

sense you are saying there was no need …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: To t h e v e t t h e o ffi c i a l s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I: I w o u l d h a v e w a lk e d i n th e r e . C h e c k o n e , t w o , t h r e e …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S D L A M I N I:
10

A n d m a k e f i n d i n g s w h ic h - I - I d o n o t th i n k …

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . W h a t I a m p r o b i n g M s D l a m i n i .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I s w h e th e r y o u h a v e t o s u b j e c t 11 8 M a n a g e r s

a n d s u p p o r t s t a ff a t S A A t o in v a s iv e s e c u r it y v e t ti n g p r o c e d u r e s i f y o u
t e ll u s t h a t t h e t w o g r e a t s u c c e s s o f t h i s p r o j e c t w e r e t h i n g s y o u c o u ld
h a v e d o n e w i th o u t v e t ti n g a s i n g l e p e r s o n a n d l e t m e ju s t b e c l e a r
about it.
T h e f ir s t o n e y o u g a v e u s w a s t h a t y o u w e r e a b l e to a d v i s e
S A A a b o u t r e v is i ti n g t h e ir r e c r u it m e n t .
20

M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t t h e y c o u l d in c l u d e i n th e ir c o n tr a c t s …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

With

e m p lo y e e s

t h e m s e l v e s t o v e tt i n g .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

Page 135 of 190

th a t

they

must

subject

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w a n t to p u t i t t o y o u . Yo u c o u l d h a v e g i v e n

that advice after one engagement with M anagement and the Board of
S A A . E s t a b li s h t h a t i t i s n o t in th e c o n t r a c ts a n d a d v is e th e m t o p u t i t
in . W h a t i s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th a t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

I do not agree with you, because now we are talking

a b o u t t h e p r o je c t t h a t h a d t o b e u n d e r ta k e n . S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

N o Ms D l a m i n i .

W h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s p u t to y o u is

s h e is q u e s t i o n in g th e n e e d f o r t h is p r o j e c t o f v e t ti n g t o h a v e h a p p e n e d
a n d p a r ti c u l a r l y m a y b e a t t h e s iz e a t w h ic h i t h a p p e n e d .
10

S o s h e is

d r a w i n g y o u r a tt e n ti o n to s a y h e r e is a n o t h e r w a y in w h ic h y o u c o u l d
h a v e a c h ie v e d w h a t y o u c a l l a g r e a t s u c c e s s w i th o u t th is v e t ti n g p r o je c t
t h a t s u b j e c t e d p e o p l e t o a v e r y in v a s i v e p r o c e s s .
T h a t is w h a t s h e is s a y in g . S h e is q u e s t i o n i n g t h e n e e d f o r
t h e v e t ti n g p r o je c t t o h a v e b e e n e m b a r k e d u p o n …
M S D L A M I N I: L e t m e ju s t i n d ic a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e i s i n v i ti n g y o u t o s a y w h e t h e r y o u a g r e e t h a t
y o u d i d n o t n e e d t o d o th e v e t t in g e x e r c is e in o r d e r t o e s t a b l is h
w h e t h e r t h e c o n tr a c ts …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O f e m p lo y m e n t o f t h e Ex e c u tiv e s h a d a c l a u s e s a y i n g
they should undertake that.

Yo u o b v i o u s l y d i d n o t n e e d t h e - t h e

v e t ti n g p r o c e s s t o e s ta b lis h w h a t is in t h e c o n tr a c t.
M S D L A M I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is w h y I s a i d i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n b e t t e r
t o r e f e r to t h e f in d i n g s a n d r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s h e r e a n d … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . W h y r e f e r t o t h a t? W e a r e n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a s t y o u r m i n d b a c k t o b e f o r e t h e p r o je c t s t a r t e d . If
y o u w a n t t o - i f o n e o f t h e t h in g s y o u w a n te d t o c h e c k is w h e th e r t h e
E x e c u t iv e s c o n tr a c t s o f e m p lo y m e n t h a d a c e r ta in c la u s e . Yo u d i d n o t
n e e d th e b e t t in g p r o c e s s f o r t h a t - to e s t a b lis h t h a t .

Yo u n e e d e d t o

c h e c k w i t h m a n a g e m e n t o r s a y le t m e s e e t h e c o n tr a c ts .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Do you - do you agree?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . I a g r e e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u w o u ld - i f y o u w e r e g iv e n t h e c o n tr a c t s
you would know whether they have got …
M S D L A M I N I: T h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c l a u s e s t h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g fo r.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S D L A M I N I:

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t , b u t t h a t i s t h e - n o t t h e o n ly f o c u s o r

the outcome … (intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: No. No. That is fine.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S h e is ta k i n g t h e th r e e p o i n t s w h i c h y o u - y o u g a v e

us great success one by one.
M S D L A M I N I: I s e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t s h e is d o in g .
M S D L A M I N I:

A n d l e t m e a ls o h ig h li g h t t h a t in t e r m s o f th e s tr a te g ic

g o a ls o f v e t ti n g .

I t is to e n s u r e t h a t c o r r u p t io n is r e d u c e d i n a S t a t e

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
O w n e d E n ti ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s H o f m e y r.
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W e w ill a c t u a ll y c o m e t o t h e p o i n t
a b o u t c o r r u p t io n …
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u g a v e a s e c o n d g r e a t s u c c e s s a n d t h a t
w a s t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s y o u m a d e r e g a r d i n g t h e r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t
t h e r e b e a d e c la r a t io n o f s e c r e c y u n d e r ta k e n b y E x e c u tiv e s . D i d I h a v e
10

that correct?
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S D L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a g a i n I w a n t t o s u g g e s t t o y o u t h a t th a t w a s
a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n m a d e w i th o u t t h e n e e d t o
c o n d u c t a n y p a r t o f t h e v e t t in g e x e r c i s e .
M S D L A M I N I: I t h i n k A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g n o w y o u a r e
s a y in g y o u a r e g o i n g t h r o u g h w h a t I a m s a y in g a n d y o u a r e tr y i n g t o
s a y t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r v e t ti n g .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s p r e c is e l y w h a t I a m … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S h e - s h e h a s to ld y o u t h a t i s w h a t s h e - s h e is
c h a l le n g i n g .
M S D L A M I N I: A n d I d o n o t a g r e e w it h h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t s h e i s g iv i n g y o u a c h a n c e t o - to s a y w h y …
M S D L A M I N I: O k a y.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t a g r e e .
M S D L A M I N I:

I w a s e x p l a i n i n g t h a t in t e r m s o f t h e g o a l w e h a d to

m a k e s u r e th a t c o r r u p t io n i s r e d u c e d t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m .
M S D L A M I N I: I n o r d e r fo r u s t o r e a c h t h a t g o a l w e w o u ld h ig h li g h t a n y
o th e r is s u e . I t c a n b e s m a l l o r b i g . I t c a n b e s m a l l o r b i g , b u t t h e m a i n
g o a l is t o e n s u r e t h a t c o r r u p t io n i s r e d u c e d t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t s p e c i fi c a ll y o n …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o I g u e s s M s D l a m in i g o i n g b a c k to t h e d i s c u s s io n

w e h a d e a r li e r o n th a t a l l th e m il li o n s o f S t a te e m p l o y e e s w e h a v e i n
S o u th A f r ic a a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e s e c u r i ty v e t te d , i f t h e y h a v e a l l b e e n
v e t te d a n d d e s p i te th a t w e h a v e t h e h i g h l e v e ls o f c o r r u p t i o n t h a t w e
a r e h a v in g th e n t h is s e c u r i t y v e t t in g d o e s n ’t h e l p r e d u c e c o r r u p t io n .
M S D L A M I N I:

We have not vetted all of them Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
M S D L A M I N I:

We have not vetted all of them Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
M S D L A M I N I:

W h y n o t?

T h e m a g n it u d e o f th e w o r k is t o o m u c h .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

Mmm?

( l a u g h i n g ) Ms H o f m e y r ” ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms D la m i n i y o u d o r e fe r t o c o r r u p ti o n

c o m b a ti n g a t p a g e 6 5 o f y o u r r e p o r ts .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

Could you go there?

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I n th e p e n u l t i m a t e b u l l e t o n p a g e 6 5 y o u

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
r e c o r d S A A h a s e x p r e s s e d s a ti s f a c t io n r e g a r d i n g t h e s i g n i fi c a n t r o le
t h e A g e n c y c o n t i n u e s t o p la y i n c o m b a t in g c o r r u p ti o n , d o y o u s e e t h a t?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w d i d y o u r v e t t in g o p e r a t i o n a s s is t in

c o m b a ti n g c o r r u p t io n a t S A A ?
M S D L A M I N I:

P e r s o n a l s e c u r it y v e t t in g is t h e f ir s t p o i n t o f e n s u r i n g

t h a t t h e p e o p l e , th e E x e c u tiv e s t h a t a r e t h e r e a r e m e n a n d w o m e n o f
in t e g r i ty.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

M s D la m i n i I a m g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k t o

w h e t h e r th a t is t h e fir s t s t e p , b u t I w a n t to f o r t h e p r e s e n t s e t o f
q u e s t io n s a c c e p t w h a t y o u ’v e s a i d t h a t t h e fir s t s t e p t o w a r d s c o m b a t i n g
c o r r u p ti o n is to d o s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g a n d e n s u r e th a t t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e
e m p l o y e d i n t h e s e S t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n i e s a r e p e r s o n s o f i n te g r i ty,
h a v e I c a p t u r e d t h a t c o r r e c tl y ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Yo u h a v e c a p t u r e d t h a t c o r r e c t ly.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y w h e n p e o p l e w h o w e r e v e tt e d d i d n ’ t g e t

s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e w h y w e r e t h e y a ll o w e d t o r e t a i n t h e ir j o b s ?
M S D L A M I N I:

B e c a u s e l e g a lly w e a r e n o t c o v e r e d in t e r m s o f t h a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

MS DLAMINI:

W h a t d o e s th a t m e a n ?

I t m e a n s i t is u n c l e a r a s t o s a y d o y o u d is m i s s t h e

p e r s o n , d o y o u s ti ll k e e p t h e p e r s o n i n t h e e n t i ty.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t Ms D l a m i n i t h a t m e a n s y o u r s e c u r i ty

v e t ti n g e x e r c is e c a n h a v e n o i m p a c t o n c u r b i n g c o r r u p ti o n .
e x p l a i n t o y o u w h y.

Let me

I f s e c u r it y v e t ti n g is a n e c e s s a r y s t e p t o w a r d s

s e c u r in g a g a i n s t c o r r u p ti o n i n a n e n ti t y t h e n i t h a s to b e e ff e c t iv e , y o u

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h a v e t o b e a b l e t o d o y o u r s e c u r i ty v e t t i n g , d e t e r m i n e th a t s o m e b o d y
s h o u l d n ’ t b e g i v e n c l e a r a n c e a n d t h e n b e a b l e to g e t r id o f t h e m .

If

y o u r e v id e n c e t o d a y i s y o u c a n ’ t ta k e th a t s t e p t h e n t h e e n t ir e e x e r c is e
has no purpose.
M S D L A M I N I:

I d o n ’ t th in k t h a t i s c o r r e c t A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r, b e c a u s e

a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d b e f o r e a n y r is k t h a t c a n b e r e d u c e d a t t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r t i m e a n d i n t e r m s o f a d v is in g o n th e m e a s u r e s th a t n e e d s t o
b e a d d r e s s e d b y t h a t p a r ti c u l a r i n s t it u ti o n i t d o e s m a k e a d i ffe r e n c e .
Ye s y o u c a n n o t f ir e a p e r s o n o n t h e s p o t t o s a y t h e y m u s t le a v e t h a t
10

p a r t ic u l a r o r g a n is a ti o n , b u t y o u w o u l d – w e w o u l d h a v e a d v is e d th e
e n t i ty to s a y o n e , t w o , t h r e e n e e d s to b e t a k e n c a u t io n o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d y o u r a d v ic e h a v e i n c l u d e d w h e t h e r t h e y

s h o u l d d is m is s p e o p le w h o d i d n ’ t r e c e i v e s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e ?
M S D L A M I N I:

A t t h is p o in t b e c a u s e t h e la w d o e s n o t c o v e r th a t p a r t

w e h a v e n o t i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a d is m is s a l.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e s h o r t a n s w e r is y o u w o u l d n o t a d v is e a n

e n t i ty to d i s m is s p e o p l e w h o fa il t o g e t a s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e ?
MS DLAMINI:

E s p e c i a l ly C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e L a b o u r

R e l a t i o n s is s u e s r e l a ti n g to t h a t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o m e b o d y th i n k s t h a t i t w o u l d n o t b e a g o o d

g r o u n d t o d is m i s s s o m e b o d y w h o is n o t a b l e to g e t s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e
in a n e n t i ty th a t e m p h a s iz e s o n f ig h ti n g c o r r u p ti o n ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o if y o u d id s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g in a n e n ti ty a n d y o u d i d

s u b j e c t 1 0 0 p e o p l e to t h e s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g a n d 5 0 o f t h e m d i d n o t g e t

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
c le a r a n c e y o u w o u l d s ti ll n o t b e a b l e t o a d v i s e t h e e n ti ty t o g e t r id o f
the 50?
M S D L A M I N I:

N o w e w o u l d n ’ t s a y th e y m u s t d is m is s t h e m .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , s o th e y w o u l d s ta y w i t h th e p r o b le m t h a t h a l f o f

it s s ta ff h a v e f a i l e d t o g e t s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e ?
M S D L A M I N I:

F o r i n s t a n c e w e w o u ld a d v is e o n p r o g r a m s t h a t n e e d to

b e u n d e r t a k e n t o d e a l w i t h th e i s s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But did I misunderstand your evidence when I

t h o u g h t i t w a s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t y o u n e e d to h a v e y o u r s t a ff s e c u r it y
10

c le a r e d in o r d e r t o r e d u c e c o r r u p t i o n o r p o t e n t i a l f o r c o r r u p t io n , d i d I
u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u a g r e e t h a t i n t h e e x a m p le I a m g i v i n g

t h e n t h e e n ti t y w o u l d r e m a i n w i t h q u i te a s e r i o u s r is k a s f a r a s S t a te
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y is c o n c e r n e d ?
MS DLAMINI:

I t w o u ld m e a n f o r in s ta n c e y o u w o u l d h a v e to g iv e

a c c e s s t o t h a t p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv i d u a l t o in f o r m a ti o n t h a t i s n o t o f h i g h
s e n s i t iv it y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ms H o f m e y r ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M s D l a mi n i I p r o m is e d

e a r l ie r i n t h e e v i d e n c e I w o u l d t a k e y o u to t h e la w, b e c a u s e I s u g g e s t e d
t h a t t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t y o u d e s c r i b e o f w h e n s e c u r i ty v e t ti n g c a n
t a k e p l a c e in S t a te O w n e d E n t e r p r i s e s i s n o t c o r r e c t .

I w a n t to b e

c le a r a b o u t w h y I a m d o in g t h i s , I a m n o t s u g g e s ti n g t h a t y o u a r e
la w y e r, w h a t I a m – w h a t is r e l e v a n t f o r t h is p r o c e e d i n g is w h a t y o u r

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e l a w i s , a n d w h a t t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f y o u r
c o l l e a g u e s a r e w h o c o n d u c t v e t ti n g e x e r c i s e s .
Yo u h a v e m a d e it c le a r in y o u r e v i d e n c e to d a y t h a t y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g , a n d I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e it i s a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g
s h a r e d in t h e v e t ti n g d e p a r t m e n t o f th e S t a t e S e c u r it y A g e n c y, i s t h a t
y o u c a n v e t a ll e m p lo y e e s o f S t a t e O w n e d C o m p a n ie s , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Employed yes.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:
10

Ac c o r d i n g t o S e c ti o n 2 . .. [ i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

N o t y o u c a n M s H o f m e y r, y o u m u s t.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s .

O h y o u m u s t , a p o l o g i e s , i t ’s a m u s t.

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u h a v e a ls o c o n f ir m e d th a t y o u d o n ’ t

n e e d t o c h e c k b e fo r e y o u d o th a t w h e th e r t h e y h a v e a c c e s s t o
c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n o r n o t , c o r r e c t?
M S D L A M I N I:

I a m m o v in g i n te r ms o f S e c t io n 2 A .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o b u t t h e a n s w e r, I h a v e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

S h e is a s k i n g w h e t h e r s h e u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e

e a r l ie r c o r r e c t ly ?
20

M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y, l e t ’s g o t o S e c t io n 2 A i f w e m a y, i t is i n

t h e le g i s l a ti o n b u n d le a t p a g e 3 6 5 .
M S D L A M I N I:

Which one?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e l e g i s l a ti o n b u n d l e , y e s , i t is t h e b i g o n e i n

fr o n t o f y o u a n d i t is p a g e 3 6 5 .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o I j u s t w o u l d li k e t o r e a d fo r t h e r e c o r d a n d

f o r y o u r b e n e fi t w h a t s u b - s e c ti o n 1 o f S e c t io n 2 A s a y s .

It says:

“ T h e r e le v a n t m e m b e r s o f t h e N a t i o n a l I n t e l li g e n c e S tr u c t u r e s
m a y c o n d u c t a v e t t in g i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n t h e p r e s c r i b e d m a n n e r
t o d e t e r m i n e t h e s e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e o f a p e r s o n i f s u c h
p e r s o n i s e m p lo y e d b y o r i s a n a p p l ic a n t t o a n O r g a n o f
S t a te . ”
Do you see that?
10

M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o w a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , i t is t h a t s e c t io n o n

w h ic h y o u r e ly fo r t h e e v id e n c e to d a y th a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t
y o u c a n – y o u m u s t v e t e v e r y o n e w h o is e m p lo y e d a t a n O r g a n o f S t a t e ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms

D la m i n i I w o u ld

agree

w i th

that

u n d e r s t a n d in g . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll M s H o f m e y r I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r I ’ m h e a r i n g

things that you are not saying, but I think it is the second time I hear
20

y o u a s i f y o u s a y M s M y e n i.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h m y g o o d n e s s , it is e n ti r e ly p o s s i b le .

D id a n y b o d y h e a r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No?

C h a i r i t h a p p e n s a t a r o u n d t h r e e o ’ c l o c k in t h e

a ft e r n o o n .

Page 144 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o a l o t o f p e o p le s a y – a l o t o f p e o p le s a y

y o u d i d n ’ t s a y t h a t , s o m a y b e it is j u s t m e . M s D l a m in i y o u d i d n ’ t h e a r
a n y th in g l ik e th a t ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

No.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D D L A M I N I:

I t h i n k , I t h in k , I t h i n k . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh goodness, maybe I did.

Yo u th in k ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Th a t I c a ll e d y o u M s My e n i ?

Yo u s e e t h is s id e o f th e r o o m a r e my

s u p p o r t e r s , I d o n ’ t th i n k th e y a r e n e c e s s a r i ly . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I c a n t e l l y o u t h i s s id e t o o y o u h a v e s u p p o r t e r s .

O k a y, a lr i g h t , m a y b e I ju s t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o a n d c a n I ju s t s a y f o r t h e tr a n s c r ip t

p u r p o s e s i f I d i d m a k e t h a t e r r o r p l e a s e i t is M s D l a m in i w h o is g i v i n g
e v i d e n c e t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , i t is j u s t th e p a s t t w o d a y s w e h e a r d a l o t o f M s

M y e n i a n d M r M y e n i.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , a n d M r My e n i a n d t h e r e w a s th a t

c o n fu s i o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
M S D D L A M I N I:

M s D l a m i n i w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t S e c t io n 2 A .

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u w e r e e x p l a i n i n g th a t t h a t’s w h e r e

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g i s d e r iv e d f r o m .

N o w w h a t I a m a b o u t to s a y i f th a t

s e c t io n r e a d a s f o ll o w s a n d s a i d t h e r e l e v a n t m e m b e r s o f t h e N a ti o n a l

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
I n t e lli g e n c e S t r u c tu r e s m a y c o n d u c t a v e t t in g i n v e s ti g a ti o n . . . a n d t h e n
it l e f t o u t t h e w o r d s t h a t f o l lo w .. . a n d c o n ti n u e d .. . i f s u c h a p e r s o n i s
e m p l o y e d b y o r a n a p p li c a n t t o a n O r g a n o f S t a t e , t h e n I c o u l d s e e i t
h a v i n g t h e m e a n in g th a t y o u a t tr i b u te t o i t .
M S D D L A M I N I:

D o y o u s e e th a t ?

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r th a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , b u t th e p r o b le m M s D la m i n i is t h a t t h o s e

words do appear there, the words “in the prescribed manner to
d e t e r m i n e t h e s e c u r i t y c o m p e t e n c e o f a p e r s o n ” i s t h e r e , a n d w h a t th a t
m e a n s is w e h a v e t o g o i n th e A c t t o th e d e f i n i ti o n o f s e c u r i ty
10

c o m p e te n c e , to k n o w w h e n i t is t h a t v e tt i n g in v e s t i g a t io n s c a n b e
c o n d u c t e d b y m e m b e r s o f t h e N a t io n a l In t e l li g e n c e S tr u c t u r e s , a n d y o u
w i ll fi n d t h e d e fi n it i o n o f s e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e a t p a g e 3 6 3 .
M S D D L A M I N I:

3 6 3 . Ye s I a m w i th y o u .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

S o y o u w i ll s e e a d e fi n i t i o n o f

s e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e th e r e , j u s t b e lo w h a l fw a y d o w n t h e p a g e , th e
d e f in i ti o n r e a d s a s fo ll o w s :
“ S e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e m e a n s a p e r s o n ’s a b i li ty t o a c t i n s u c h
a m a n n e r t h a t h e o r s h e d o e s n o t c a u s e c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a ti o n
o r m a t e r i a l t o f a ll i n t o u n a u t h o r is e d h a n d s t h e r e b y h a r m in g o r
e n d a n g e r in g th e s e c u r it y o r in t e r e s ts o f t h e S ta t e . ”

20

A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n t o d e s c r i b e h o w y o u m e a s u r e th a t .
a g a in s t

three

th in g s ;

th e

p e r s o n ’s

s u s c e p ti b ili t y

Yo u m e a s u r e i t
to

e x t o r ti o n

or

b l a c k m a i l, t h e p e r s o n ’s a m e n a b il it y t o b r i b e s a n d s u s c e p t i b il i ty to b e i n g
c o m p r o m is e d d u e to h i s o r h e r b e h a v i o u r a n d t h e p e r s o n ’s l o y a l t y t o th e
S t a te a n d t h e r e le v a n t i n s t it u ti o n .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M s D l a m in i t h e i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f t h a t d e fi n i t io n i s t h a t i t is
c o n c e r n e d w i t h a p e r s o n ’s a b ili t y to c a u s e c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a ti o n o r
m a t e r i a l t o f a ll i n t o u n a u th o r is e d h a n d s .

D o y o u a g r e e t h a t t h a t’s a n

i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f t h a t d e f in i ti o n ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s I a g r e e t h a t s e c u r it y c o m p e t e n c y i s m a i n l y t o

e n s u r e t h a t in f o r m a ti o n d o e s n o t l a n d i n t o u n a u th o r is e d h a n d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , s o w h e n y o u r e a d S e c ti o n 2 A w i t h t h a t

d e f in i ti o n I w a n t to t e l l y o u th e m e a n i n g I g iv e i t a n d t h e n I w o u ld lik e
y o u to t e ll m e w h e th e r y o u h a v e a d i ffe r e n t u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f i t .
10

Yo u

s e e 2 A is a n e m p o w e r in g p r o v i s i o n , it s a y s m e m b e r s o f t h e N a ti o n a l
I n t e lli g e n c e S t r u c tu r e s m a y c o n d u c t a n in v e s t ig a ti o n i n t h e p r e s c r i b e d
m a n n e r t o d e te r m i n e t h e s e c u r i ty c o m p e te n c e o f a p e r s o n , a n d i n o r d e r
t o k n o w w h a t m a y l a w fu ll y b e in c l u d e d i n a s e c u r it y v e t ti n g o p e r a t io n
you

have

to

know

what

s e c u r i ty

c o m p e te n c e

is,

and

s e c u r i ty

c o m p e te n c e is a p e r s o n ’s a b i li ty to d iv u l g e c o n fi d e n t ia l in f o r m a t io n . D o
y o u a c c e p t th a t th a t ’s th e m e a n i n g o f s e c u r it y c o m p e t e n c e ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w a n t t o p u t it t o y o u , a n d y o u c a n te ll m e i f

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is d i ff e r e n t, t h a t w h a t is r e q u ir e d f o r la w f u l v e t t in g
20

o f in v e s ti g a t io n s t o b e c o n d u c t e d a t O r g a n s o f S t a t e is t h a t y o u h a v e t o
d e t e r m i n e f ir s t w h e th e r t h e r e i s a p e r s o n w h o h a s a n a b i li ty t o c a u s e
c o n fi d e n ti a l in f o r m a t io n o r m a t e r ia l t o f a ll in t o u n a u t h o r is e d h a n d s , a n d
o n c e y o u h a v e i d e n t i fi e d t h a t t h e r e a r e p e r s o n s w h o h a v e th a t a b il it y
t h e n y o u c a n c o n d u c t v e t ti n g i n v e s ti g a t i o n s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D D L A M I N I:

N o A d v o c a te H o f m e y r, I a m n o t o f t h e s a m e t h i n k i n g

as you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u a c c e p t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g r e q u ir e s

c e r t a i n w o r d s in S e c t i o n 2 A to b e d e l e t e d ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

I w o u l d w a n t t o s ti c k to S e c t io n . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h a t m i g h t r e q u ir e t o b e a la w y e r.

M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O n a p u r e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e l a n g u a g e I

t h i n k w e a c c e p t e d t h a t t h o s e w o r d s c o u ld b e r e m o v e d i n o r d e r f o r y o u r
10

m e a n i n g t o a p p l y, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

L e t m e j u s t s ti c k to m y m e a n in g .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

M S D D L A M I N I:

I t h i n k it is s a fe f o r m e t o s a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, l e t m e a s k y o u t h i s q u e s ti o n , i f y o u a c c e p t t h a t

t h e p u r p o s e o f c o n d u c t in g a v e t ti n g in v e s ti g a t io n i n t e r m s o f S e c t i o n 2 A
is t o d e t e r m i n e t h e s e c u r it y c o m p e te n c e o f a p e r s o n , i f y o u a c c e p t t h a t
t h a t ’s t h e p u r p o s e .
M S D D L A M I N I:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I’m with you yes.
A n d y o u a c c e p t th a t t h e s e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e o f a

p e r s o n r e l a te s t o t h e a b ili t y o f t h a t p e r s o n t o c a u s e c o n fi d e n t ia l
in f o r m a ti o n t o l a n d i n u n a u t h o r is e d h a n d s .

I f y o u a c c e p t t h a t is n ’ t t h e

p o s i ti o n t h e r e f o r e t h is , t h a t t h e r e a r e a l o t o f p e o p l e th a t c a n b e
e x c lu d e d fr o m t h e n e e d f o r a v e t ti n g i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e c a u s e b y v ir t u e o f

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
t h e ty p e o f j o b t h e y d o , t h e y a r e f a r a w a y fr o m b e i n g a b le t o a c c e s s
c o n fi d e n ti a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e i f th e y c a n ’ t a c c e s s i t t h e y c a n ’ t c a u s e it t o

la n d i n u n a u t h o r is e d h a n d s , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

A b s o lu t e l y.

CHAIRPERSON:
M S D L A M I N I:

A b s o lu t e l y, a b s o l u te ly.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir I a m in d e b t e d . M s D la m i n i t h e r e i s o n e

p o i n t a n d I m a d e t h e e r r o r a n d I g o t a fu r i o u s n o te fr o m my c o l l e a g u e s
w h e n I m a d e i t, w h e n w e l o o k a t t h e d e fi n i ti o n o f s e c u r it y c o m p e te n c e I
d o n ’t w a n t u s t o n o t u s e t h e l a n g u a g e th a t is r e c o r d e d t h e r e , it is n o t
a c t u a ll y – i t d o e s n o t a c t u a ll y s a y a c c e s s t o c o n f i d e n ti a l i n f o r m a ti o n , i t
t a lk s a b o u t a c c e s s t o c l a s s i fi e d i n f o r m a t i o n , w h ic h h a s a v e r y p a r tic u l a r
m e a n i n g in a s e c u r it y s e t t in g .
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h a t I w o u l d li k e to e m p h a s iz e is th a t o n

t h e d e s c r i p ti o n th a t t h e C h a ir h a s j u s t g iv e n y o u , i t i s n o t s i m p ly – t h e
20

r e l e v a n t q u e s t io n is n o t s i m p ly w h e t h e r a p e r s o n h a s a c c e s s t o
c o n fi d e n ti a l i n f o r m a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e th e r e m ig h t b e r e a m s o f c o n fi d e n t ia l

in f o r m a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s c l a s s if i e d .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t is a c t u a ll y c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a t io n , d o y o u

a c c e p t t h a t ? T h a t t h a t ’s w h a t s e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e is c o n c e r n e d w i t h ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t , a n d t h e n i f I te ll y o u th a t n o m a n a g e r a t

S A A h a s e v e r a c c e s s e d c l a s s i f ie d i n f o r m a t io n , w o u l d y o u h a v e a n y
b a s is o n w h i c h t o d is p u t e t h a t ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

I ’ m s u r e y o u w o u l d p r o v i d e m e w i th a – t h e

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t i n fo r m s w h a t y o u s a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Indeed, but you never checked whether they

d i d h a v e a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n f o r m a ti o n o r n o t ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

No, no, no.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e M is s O l it s k i [ ? ] in h e r a ff id a v i t m a k e s

it c le a r s h e h a s b e e n a t S A A a t t h e ti m e o f d e p o s i n g to h e r a ff i d a v i t f o r
e i g h t y e a r s , s o t h a t m e a n s s h e s t a r te d in 2 0 1 2 a n d i n th o s e e i g h t y e a r s
s h e h a s n e v e r, s h e is th e h e a d – le t m e ju s t g e t t h is r i g h t , b e c a u s e I
g o t t h i s w r o n g th e o t h e r d a y w h e n I r e f e r r e d t o s o m e o n e a s th e H e a d ,
b u t s h e is a t p a g e 6 8 t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t f o r F in a n c ia l A c c o u n t in g
a t S o u t h A f r i c a n Ai r w a y s .
In
20

her

a ff i d a v i t s h e

says

the

fo ll o w i n g

a b o u t c l a s s i f ie d

in f o r m a ti o n ; y o u d o n ’ t n e c e s s a r il y h a v e t o g o t h e r e , y o u c a n j u s t a s k
m e t o g iv e y o u t h e r e f e r e n c e f o r w h e r e I m a k e t h is c l a i m . I t is a t p a g e
7 2 i n E X H I B I T D D 2 4 , fe e l fr e e to g o t h e r e i f y o u w i s h , b u t I w il l r e a d i t
in . Ms O li t s k i s a y s :
“ I d i d n o t t h i n k i t w a s a r e q u i r e m e n t f o r a fi n a n c e m a n a g e r i n
a n a ir l in e t o h a v e s u c h c le a r a n c e a n y w a y. In t h e y e a r s I h a d

Page 150 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
worked at SAA I had never seen a document that could be
deemed

c la s s if i e d ,

C o m m i s s i o n ’s

as

secret

i n v e s t ig a t o r s

or

have

to p

secret.

i n d ic a te d

to

me

The
that

c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n w o u ld u s u a l ly b e i d e n ti f ie d b y w a y a
c la s s if i e d s e c r e t o r to p s e c r e t s t a m p o r m a r k i n g . ”
A n d s h e c o n f ir m s t h a t t h a t is n o t s o m e t h i n g s h e e v e r c a m e a c r o s s in
h e r e ig h t y e a r s .
I f t h a t w a s s o a n d g iv e n w h a t y o u h a v e a c c e p t e d a b o u t t h e
p u r p o s e a n d t h e s tr u c t u r e o f th is A c t w o u ld y o u a c c e p t th a t i t w a s n o t
10

la w fu l f o r t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y t o c o n d u c t th is v e t t in g w i th o u t
e s t a b li s h in g w h e t h e r t h e p e o p le t h a t w a s v e tt i n g . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . [ In d is ti n c t ]

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u a c c e p t o r l e t m e a s k d i ff e r e n tly

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e a n o th e r w a y o f a s k i n g i t w o u l d b e t h i s w i th o u t

r e q u ir i n g y o u t o h a v e l e g a l k n o w le d g e .
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I f w e a c c e p t , a n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u to a c c e p t , th a t

t h e p u r p o s e o f s e c u r i ty v e tt i n g i s t o d e t e r m i n e t h e s e c u r i ty c o m p e t e n c e
20

w o u ld y o u n o t a g r e e th a t t h e r e f o r e s e c u r i t y v e tt i n g w h e r e t h e p e r s o n o r
persons

who

are

being

vetted

d o n ’t

have

access

to

c l a s s if i e d

in f o r m a ti o n d o e s n ’ t s e r v e t h e p u r p o s e t h a t is – t h a t s e c u r i t y v e t ti n g is
s u p p o s e d to a c h i e v e ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

W i t h a ll d u e r e s p e c t C h a ir I d o n ’ t a g r e e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h y d o y o u n o t a g r e e ?

Page 151 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
M S D D L A M I N I:

O n a n o te t h a t a s p e r th e S e c ti o n 2 A if y o u a r e

e m p l o y e d y o u h a v e t o b e v e t te d .
CHAIRPERSON:
M S D L A M I N I:

N o , n o , n o y o u m u s t l is t e n t o my q u e s ti o n c a r e f u l ly.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s

go

back

and

you

must

t e ll

me

if

I

m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u .
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

E a r l ie r o n I t h o u g h t y o u a g r e e d w it h m e t h a t i f y o u

lo o k a t S e c ti o n 2 A t h e p u r p o s e o f c o n d u c t in g a v e t t in g i n v e s t ig a ti o n i s
10

to determine the security competence of a person.

I u n d e r s to o d y o u

c o r r e c t ly, y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t p a r t ?
M S D L A M I N I:

Ye s , f u l ly, fu ll y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

Then Ms Hofmeyr took you to the

d e f in i ti o n o f s e c u r i t y c o m p e t e n c e , y o u r e m e m b e r ?
M S D D L A M I N I:
CHAIRPERSON:

C o m p e te n c e y e s s ir.
A n d I t h in k w e a r e a l l a g r e e d t h a t w h a t i t – w h a t th e

A c t s a y s i t is , is t h a t i t r e fe r s t o t h e a b i l it y o f a p e r s o n o r a c c e s s t o
c la s s if i e d i n f o r m a ti o n b y a p e r s o n a n d t h e a b il i ty t o a ll o w c l a s s i fi e d
in f o r m a ti o n t o l a n d o n u n a u t h o r is e d h a n d s , a r e w e a g r e e d o r w e a r e n o t
20

agreed?

L e t ’s g o t o 8 , w h a t w a s t h e S e c ti o n M s H o f m e y r ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

S e c u r i ty C o m p e t e n c e is a t p a g e 3 6 3 .

O k a y, l e t’s g o t o 3 6 3 , I j u s t w a n t t o , if y o u s a y y o u

d o n ’t a g r e e I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u d o n ’ t a g r e e ,
okay?
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

Page 152 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

S e c u r it y c o m p e t e n c e m e a n s a p e r s o n ’s a b i li ty t o a c t

in s u c h a m a n n e r t h a t h e o r s h e d o e s n o t c a u s e c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a ti o n
o r m a t e r ia l t o f a l l i n t o u n a u th o r is e d h a n d s , t h e r e b y h a r m i n g o r
e n d a n g e r in g th e s e c u r it y o f i n t e r e s t o f th e S t a te . O k a y, i t is th e a b il it y
o f a p e r s o n t o a c t i n a m a n n e r t h a t h e o r s h e d o e s n o t c a u s e c l a s s i fi e d
in f o r m a ti o n o r m a t e r ia l to f a l l i n t o u n a u th o r is e d h a n d s .
S o t h a t p e r s o n , a s I r e a d t h is , m u s t b e s o m e b o d y w h o h a s
a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n f o r m a ti o n o r w h o c a n h a v e a c c e s s to c l a s s i fi e d
in f o r m a ti o n b y v ir tu e o f t h e d u ti e s o r r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o r w o r k t h a t h e o r
10

s h e is d o i n g , a r e w e a g r e e d o n t h a t o r a r e w e n o t?
M S D L A M I N I:

W e a g r e e o n t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I w a n t t o p u s h y o u

f u r th e r t o s a y . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l l e t m e f ir s t p u t th is , s o w e a g r e e o n th a t .

M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n , a n d y o u s h o u ld

k n o w b e t t e r, c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a ti o n is n o t in f o r m a ti o n y o u a r e g o i n g t o
g e t a ll o v e r, c l a s s i fi e d i n f o r m a ti o n i s s t o r e d a n d k e p t s o m e w h e r e , a m I
r ig h t ?

20

M S D D L A M I N I:

N o t a ll t h e t i m e .

CHAIRPERSON:

N o t a ll t h e t i m e ?

M S D D L A M I N I:

N o t a ll t h e t i m e y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h e n i t i s n o t w h e r e i t i s s u p p o s e d t o b e is it n o t

b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y h a s d o n e s o m e t h i n g , h a s a ll o w e d i t t o la n d in
u n a u th o r is e d h a n d s ?
M S D D L A M I N I:

It could be.

Page 153 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t m o s t o f th e ti m e w o u l d i t n o t , in a n o r g a n is a ti o n

is n ’ t t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t o n ly v e r y f e w p e o p l e w o u l d h a v e a c c e s s to
c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n ?
MS D DLAMINI:

I t h i n k t h e n t h e d e b a te w i ll g o o n to s a y C h a ir p e r s o n

if y o u s a y i t is i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t m u s t b e s t o r e d s o m e w h e r e , b e c a u s e
t h a t i s t h e s e n s e I a m h a v i n g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s i m p ly s a y in g , a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w, I a m s a y i n g

y o u m i g h t k n o w b e t t e r, I a m u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n th a t w h e n i n fo r m a ti o n
is c l a s s i fi e d , w h e n a d o c u m e n t is c l a s s i fi e d w h e r e i t is k e p t is
10

s o m e t h i n g q u i te i m p o r t a n t, y o u d o n ’t w a n t i t l ie a r o u n d .

Th a t is my

u n d e r s t a n d in g , a n d o n l y a fe w p e o p le i n a n o r g a n i s a t io n w o u l d h a v e
a c c e s s t o c la s s i f ie d i n f o r m a ti o n .
I m a y b e w r o n g b u t t h a t ’s t h e p i c t u r e t h a t I h a v e , b e c a u s e y o u
d o n ’t w a n t , y o u w a n t o n ly a f e w p e o p le to k n o w a b o u t t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n ,
a u t h o r i s e d p e o p l e . Is n ’t i t?
MS D DLAMINI:

I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n i t m e a n s o n e w o u ld h a v e t o h a v e

a d i s c u s s i o n o r d e l ib e r a te t o s a y i s t h i s c l a s s i fi e d , i s t h i s n o t , b e c a u s e
t h a t o n i ts o w n if o n e w o u l d s a y t h is d o c u m e n t is c la s s i f ie d t h e
q u e s t io n i s w h a t i n f o r m s y o u t o s a y it is c l a s s i fi e d ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I th o u g h t th a t t o h a v e a d o c u m e n t c l a s s i f ie d

m e a n s s o m e b o d y m a k e s a d e c i s i o n . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
M S D D L A M I N I:

To m a k e i t c l a s s i fi e d .

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i t is c l a s s i f ie d .

M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s .

Page 154 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:
it s o w n .

I t d o e s n ’ t g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g b e c o m e c l a s s if i e d o n

S o m e b o d y n e e d s to h a v e – t o k n o w w h a t i t c o n ta in s a n d

s h o u l d ta k e a v ie w t h a t th is is s o m e th i n g t h a t s h o u l d b e c l a s s i fi e d , s o if
t h a t is c o r r e c t I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t i n a n y o r g a n i s a t io n th e r e m u s t b e
v e r y f e w p e o p le w h o h a v e a c c e s s to c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a ti o n , b e c a u s e
t h a t ’s i n f o r m a ti o n y o u d o n ’ t w a n t e v e r y o n e to k n o w.
M S D D L A M I N I:

B u t t h e n C h a ir p e r s o n i n o r d e r to e n s u r e th a t o n e

m i g h t a r g u e to s a y w e l o c k i t a w a y b u t . .. [ i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s .
Ye s , b u t w h a t h a p p e n s is w h a t h a p p e n s i f y o u a r e

w o r k i n g o n c la s s i f ie d i n f o r m a ti o n a n d s o m e b o d y w a lk s i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b u t y o u a r e t h e r e , s o y o u k n o w t h is is c l a s s i fi e d

a n d y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t h e p e r s o n to s e e i t .
M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s b u t i t w il l d e p e n d o n th e b e h a v io u r . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o le a v e c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a t io n

u n a t te n d e d , i f t h e r e a r e p e o p le w h o c a n c o m e in .
MS D DLAMINI:

B u t d o e s it h a p p e n lik e t h a t ? T h a t ’s a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n

t o s a y d o p e o p l e d o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e ll I w o u ld th in k t h a t t h o s e p e o p l e w h o a r e

r e s p o n s i b l e f o r c l a s s i fi e d i n f o r m a ti o n t a k e s s t e p s a n d m e a s u r e s t o
m a k e s u r e o n ly p e o p l e w h o h a v e t h e r e l e v a n t c l e a r a n c e o r w h o a r e
a u t h o r i s e d c a n s e e t h e i n f o r m a ti o n o n t h e d o c u m e n ts , n o t a n y b o d y c a n
s e e i t , b u t a r e y o u s a y i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t is l ik e th a t ?
M S D D LA M I N I:

I a m s a y i n g C h a i r p e r s o n i f I w e r e t o s ta t e t o y o u th a t

it is n o t a l w a y s th e c a s e .

Page 155 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is i t s u p p o s e d to b e t h e c a s e ?

M S D D L A M I N I:

Ye s , y e s , i t is s u p p o s e d t o b e th e c a s e .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , y o u s e e t h a t ’s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e i f t h a t is h o w i t

is s u p p o s e d t o b e b u t m a y b e th e r e a r e b r e a c h e s o f s e c u r it y.
M S D D L A M I N I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm.
T h a t is n o w a n o t h e r i s s u e b e c a u s e t h a t m ig h t b e

b e c a u s e o f o t h e r t h i n g s , b u t i f y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t io n o n c e
c la s s if i e d is s u p p o s e d t o b e k e p t s o m e w h e r e a n d o n ly a fe w p e o p l e
h a v e a c c e s s t o i t i n a n o r g a n is a t io n t h a t h a s g o t m o r e t h a n 1 0 0 0
10

e m p l o y e e s I w o u l d n ’ t s e e w h y y o u w o u ld n e e d t o v e t 5 0 0 e m p lo y e e s
w h o h a v e n o c h a n c e o f h a v i n g a c c e s s t o t h is i n f o r m a ti o n , d o y o u
understand what I mean.
M S D D L A M I N I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n b u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
B u t t h o s e w h o m a y b e c l o s e b e c a u s e o f t h e ir

p o s i ti o n s t h e n I w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d .
M S D D L A M I N I:

J a , b u t i t is n o t a l w a y s t h e c a s e t h a t t h e p e o p le t h a t

w o r k s w i t h t h a t c l a s s i fi e d in f o r m a t io n s a f e g u a r d i t a n d m a k e s u r e th a t i t
is w h e r e i t is s u p p o s e d to b e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y, Ms H o f m e y r ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r, I n e e d e d t o ta k e a b r e a k a t

t h r e e , I k n o w I w o u ld h a v e li k e d u s t o f in i s h w i t h M s D la m i n i b e f o r e w e
– I t a k e t h e b r e a k b u t I t h i n k I m u s t t a k e it b e c a u s e w e a r e a t q u a r t e r
p a s t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C e r t a i n ly.

Page 156 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s ta k e a te n mi n u t e s b r e a k , I ju s t h a v e s o m e

urgent document that I must sign.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Of course.

W e a r e g o in g to ta k e a te n m in u t e s b r e a k .

We

adjourn.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
REGISTRAR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
10

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y le t u s c o n tin u e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u C h a ir jus t b e fo r e w e c o n tin u e I h a v e
b e e n a sk e d to g e t s o me in d ic a tio n o f th e p la n n in g fo r th e r e min d e r o f th e
a fte r n o o n , ju s t b e c a us e it d o e s h a v e a n imp a c t o n a r r a ng e me n ts th a t a r e
b e in g ma d e fo r th e s e c o nd w itn e s s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

I d o n o t th in k w e c a n g o b e y o n d 1 7 H 00 b u t w e c a n g o

b e y o nd 1 6 H 0 0 , ma y b e to 1 6 H 3 0 ma y b e u p t o 1 6 H 4 5 , o r e v e n 1 7 H 0 0 . H o w
is th e s itu a tio n fo r to mo r r o w lo o k in g ?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

To mo r r o w w e h av e a n e w s ch e d u led w itn e ss to

c o mme n ce b u t I h a v e b e e n d is cu ss in g th e s itu a tio n w ith Mr Mb ik iw a w h o
20

w ill b e p r e s e n tin g th e e v id en c e o f th e s e c on d w itn e s s to d ay, o u r s e ns e is
th a t e v e n if w e d o g o to 1 6 H 3 0 o r 1 7 H 0 0 w e w ill n o t q u ite c o mp le te h is
e v id e nc e so w e w o u ld n ee d th e se c o nd w itn e s s o f to d ay to c o n tin ue
to mo r r o w a n d th e r e w ill b e a b it o f a k n o c k o n e ffe c t fo r to mo r r o w s
w itn e s s a nd p o ss ib ly th e w itn e ss o n Fr id a y b u t w e ma y b e a b le to w o r k
th a t in , y e s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A IR PER SO N:

J a , o h o k a y, o k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So c a n I ta k e it t h a t w e w ill lik e ly s it b e y o n d

1 6 H 0 0 to a p o in t. O u r g r e a t in te n tio n is fo r u s to c o mp le te M is s D la min i
a n d a t le a s t s ta r t th e s e c o n d w itn e ss w h ich w ill b e h e lp fu l.
C H A IR PER SO N:

J a o k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u . Mis s D la min i ju s t in in c o n c lu s io n o n

th is p o in t a b o u t s e c u r ity c o mp e te nc e a n d w h a t r o le it p la y s in v e ttin g
in v e s tig a tio ns , I w o u ld lik e to a sk y ou th e fo llo w in g q u es tio n , If n o o n e a t
SAA a t a n y p o in t h a d a c c e ss to c la s s ifie d in fo r ma tio n d o y o u a c c e p t th a t
10

th e s e c u r ity v e ttin g th a t y o u c o n d u c te d w as th e n n o t d e s ig n e d to a s s e s s
th e ir s e c ur ity c o mp e te nc e ? If y o u w ill ju s t tu r n o n y o u r micr o p h on e .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

Ya .

C a n y o u r e p e a t p le a s e ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

If th e fa c ts a r e th a t n o - o n e a t SAA h a d a c c e s s to

c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n , th e n th e v e ttin g e x er c is e th a t yo u a n d y o u r te a m
c o n d uc te d , c o u ld n o t h a v e as s es se d th e ir se c u r ity co mp e te n ce ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ad v o c a te H o fme y r if I ma y s a y th a t, a s p er o u r ma nd a te

w e v e t a n a p p lic an t, w e v e t a p er s on w h o is to e n te r th e s ys te m. N o w, o n
y o u r po in t, y o u sa y in g , yo u s ta tin g th a t it me a n s th a t p e rs o n w h o is a n
20

a p p lic a n t to b e a n o ffic ia l in a Sta te O w n e d En tity, s h o u ld n o t b e ve tte d .
I th in k th a t is th e s e n s e I a m g e t tin g to y o u u n le s s th e y h a v e c la ss ifie d
[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , n o , n o d o n o t w o r ry a b o u t th is s e ns e yo u a r e

g e ttin g . D o n o t w o r r y a b o u t th e s e n se y ou a r e g e ttin g , ju s t a n s w e r th e
q u e s tio n . L e t me , I b e lie v e y o u h a v e a n sw e r e d th e q u e s tio n p r e v iou s ly

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b u t I a m g o in g to p u t a g a in a n d s e e w h e th e r y o u a r e d ev ia tin g fr o m th a t
a n s we r.

O k a y.

Th e p u r p o s e o f c o nd u c tin g a v e ttin g in v e s tig a tio n in

te r ms o f Se c tio n 2 ( A) is to d e te r min e t h e s e c ur ity c o mp e te nc e o f a
p e r s on , y o u a g r ee ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

J a . N o w, w h e n yo u g o to , o r le t me p u t it th is w a y, if

y o u c o n du c t a v e ttin g in v e s tig a tio n , a s e c u r ity v e ttin g p r o ce ss , w h ic h
d o e s n o t d e te r min e th e s e cu r ity c o mp e te nce o f th a t p e r s o n , th e n y o u a r e
n o t c o n d u c tin g a v e ttin g p r o c es s th a t c a n a c h ie v e th e p u r po s es s ta te d in
10

th e Ac t, is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

My r e s p o n s e C h a irp e rs o n , Ad v o ca te H o fme yr, w o u ld b e , I

w o u ld b e v e ttin g a p e rs o n th a t is an a p p lica n t a c c or d in g to Se c tio n 2( A)
w h o h a s n o t h a d a a cc e ss to c la ss ifie d in fo r ma tio n a s y e t.
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

Yo u a g r e e w ith me C h a ir p e r so n ?

C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll, I d o n o t h a v e to a g r e e w ith y o u n o w, b u t y o u a r e

a n s we r in g a q u e s tio n th a t y o u w a n t to a n s w e r, y o u a r e n o t a n s w e r in g th e
q u e s tio n th a t I a m p u t tin g to y o u .
MS D LA MIN I:
20

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

O k a y le t u s g o a g a in .

L e t u s g o a g a in .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e p u r p o s e o f a v e ttin g , s e c u r ity v e ttin g e x e r c ise in

te r ms o f Se c tio n 2 ( A) is to d e te r min e t h e s e c ur ity c o mp e te nc e o f a
p e r s on .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, d o y o u a g r ee w ith me th a t if y o u c o n d uc t a

v e ttin g , s e c u r ity v e ttin g p r o c es s wh ic h c a nno t o r is n o t g o in g to d e te r min e
th e s e c u r ity c o mpe te n c e o f th a t p e r s o n , th e n y o u a r e c o n d u c tin g a
s e c ur ity v e ttin g p r o ce ss th a t w ill n o t a c h ie v e th e p u r p os e s ta te d in th e
la w ?
MS D LA MIN I:

My r e s p o n s e C h a irp e rs o n wo u ld b e , c o nd u c tin g v e ttin g o n

its e lf is to d e te r min e th e s e c u r ity c o mpe te n c e , s o my a ns w er is , y o u
r a th e r n o t c o n d uc t v e ttin g a t a ll b e c a u s e on c e y o u e mb ar k o n co n d uc tin g
v e ttin g y o u w a n t to d e te r min e s e c ur ity c o mpe te n c e .
10

C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll, w e ll y o u a r e r ig h t.

I f y o u a r e n o t g o in g to

d e te r min e , if y o u a r e n o t u s in g a v e ttin g p r o c e ss fo r th e p u r p o s e s ta te d in
th e la w, th e n y o u s h o u ld n o t c o n du c t it a t a ll . Yo u a g r e e ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ex a c tly. I a g r e e C h a ir p er s on, y e s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, Mis s H o fme y r d o you w a n t to ta k e it fr o m h e r e ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
mo v e o n if I ma y.

N o I a m n o t to u c h in g th a t to p ic a g a in , le t me

Mis s D la min i I w o u ld li k e to p u t c e r ta in c o n c lu s io ns

th a t I d r a w fr o m th e e v id e n c e to d a y a n d I w o u ld lik e to g iv e y o u a n
o p p o r tu n ity to c o mmen t o n th e m.

I a m g o in g to lo o k a t b o th , w h a t

h a p p e n ed in th e c o u r s e o f th e v e tt in g o p e r a tio n a s w e ll a s its r e s u lts
20

a fte r w a r ds .
MS D LA MIN I:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

O k a y.

Mis s D la min i d o y o u a c c e p t th a t th e

s e c ur ity v e ttin g o f SAA e x e cu tiv e s an d su p p o r t s ta ff to o k p la c e in a
s itu a tio n a t w h ic h n o p o in t d id a ny o n e fr om SSA in v e s tig a te w h e th e r th e
p e r s on s th e y w er e v e ttin g in fa c t h a d a c c ess to c la s s ifie d in fo r ma tio n ?

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MS D LA MIN I:

I w o u ld n o t s ta te th a t my s e lf b e c a u s e I w as n o t p r ivy to

w h a t o c c ur r ed o r tr a n s p ir e d b e tw e en th e tw o Min is te r s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

As fa r a s y o u r c o n d u c t o f th e o p e r a tio n w a s

c o n ce r n ed , y o u a t n o p o in t e s ta b lis h ed wh e th e r th e p e o p le w ho w e re
b e in g v e tte d h a d a cc e ss to c la s s ifie d in fo r ma tio n . C o r r e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

We n e v e r o b ta in e d th e ir jo b d e s cr ip tio n , th e ir d a ily d u tie s ,

y e s , I n e v e r o b ta in e d th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , a n d y o u h a d n o b a s is to d is p u te th e

e v id e nc e o f Mis s O lits k i w h ic h w as to th e e ffe c t th a t th e y w e r e n o t to ld
10

th a t th e y h a d a n o p tio n to n o t ta k e th e p o ly g r ap h te s t, d o I h a v e y o u r
te s timo n y c o rr e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

I s a id I a m n o t in a p o s ition to r e s p on d to th a t p a r tic u lar

c a s e b ec a us e I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p en e d th e r e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

In d e e d .

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d Mis s D la min i a s a re s u lt o f th e ve ttin g th a t

w a s c on d uc te d , s e v e n ex e cu tiv e ma n a g er s re s ig n e d , is th a t c o r r ec t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , d u r in g th e v e ttin g ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

Ye s , a n d a s a c o n s e q u e nc e SAA lo s t th o s e s k ills

o f th o s e s e v e n ex e cu tiv e ma n a g er s , c o rr e c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

L o o k , a n y e x e c u tiv e w o u ld r e s ig n , p a r tic u lar ly fr o m SAA

So u th Afr ic a n Air w a ys .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

Th e y n e v er fo r w a rd e d th e ir r e s ig n a tio n le tte r s to Sta te

Se c u r ity, s o I a m n o t in a p os itio n to s ay w h a t w as s ta te d on th o s e

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le tte r s , s o o n e w o u ld h a v e to h a v e a lo o k a t th o s e le t te r s a n d s e e w h a t
w a s th e ir r e as o ns to r e s ig n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D o y o u a c ce p t th a t if th e r e w e r e p eo p le in

p o s itio n s b e fo re th e v e ttin g o p e r a tio n a n d th o s e p e op le s r es ig n ed d u r in g
it, SAA lo s t th e s k ills th a t th o s e p e o p le b r o ug h t to th e ir p o s itio n s .
MS D LA MIN I:

I w o u ld n o t s a y th a t Ad v o c a te H o fme y r b e c a u s e I d o n o t

h a v e th e r e a s o ns w h y th e y r e s ig n ed . A p e r s o n c a n r e s ig n to d a y w h e th e r I
a m th e r e o r n o t, s o y e s it h a pp e n e d du r in g th e time th a t w e w e re
c o n d uc tin g v e ttin g a t a n e n tity b u t th e m r e s ig n in g , I n e v e r g o to
10

u n d e rs ta n d o r s ee th e ir r e s ig na tio n le tte r s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , I fu lly u n d e r s tan d th a t. Yo u d o n o t, y o u w er e

n o t p r iv y to th e ir r e a s on s .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

I a m a s k in g a d iff e r e n t q u es tio n .

I a m s a y in g

w h e n p e op le r e s ign fr o m Sta te O w n e d En te r p r is es , d o y o u ac c e p t th a t
th o s e Sta te - O w n e d En te r p r is e s los e th e s k ills o f th o s e p e o p le ?
MS D LA MIN I:

It d e p e n d s in te r ms o f th e a r e a s w h e r e th e y a r e e mp lo y ed ,

w h a t s k ills d o th ey p os s es s ?

We r e th ey a n a ss e t to th a t p a r tic u la r

o r g a n is a tio n ? So it c o u ld b e a n u mb e r o f th in g s s o I c a n n o t r e a lly s a y.
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

In th e c o u r s e o f the v e ttin g o p e r a tio n , p er s o na l

a n d p r iv a te in fo r ma tio n o f a b o u t a 11 8 e mp l o y e es o f S AA w e r e d iv u lg e d to
th e In te llig e n c e Se r v ic es o f So u th - Afr ic a , d o y o u a c c ep t th a t?
MS D LA MIN I:

D u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th e v ettin g a s s e ss me n t e x e rc ise a s

p e r [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

I g u e s s th e s h o r t a n s w er is y e s , c a n o n ly b e y es .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d w h e th e r o r n o t a p e r s on p as s e d o r fa ile d th e

v e ttin g e x e rc is e , in fa c t h a d n o imp a c t a t a ll o n th e ir jo b s , d id it?
MS D LA MIN I:

We n e v e r g o t to d is c u ss w ha t w o u ld b e th e w a y fo r w a r d in

te r ms o f th a t?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

So it d id n o t?

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Mis s D la min i I w o u ld lik e to p u t it to y o u a s a

c o n se q u e nc e o f th a t a n s w e r th a t th e r e w a s n o le g itima te p u r p o s e th a t
10

w a s th e n s e rv e d by th e s ec u r ity v e ttin g , b e c a u se if it h a d b e e n le g itima te
a n d if it h a d s o ug h t to a c h iev e th e ob je ctiv e y o u ide n tifie d , th e n a n y
p e r s on w h o d id n o t r ec e iv e c le ar a nc e o u g h t n o t to h a v e b e e n p e r mitte d to
r e ma in in th e ir jo b s .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ad v o c a te H o fme y r le t me s t a r t b y c o n g ra tu la tin g y o u fo r

c o mp ly in g w ith th e v e ttin g p r o c e ss . I th in k y o u a r e th e e v id e n ce le a d e r
to d a y b e c au s e y o u h a ve c o mp lie d w ith th e p r o c es s a n d th a nk y o u ve r y
mu c h fo r th a t. In te r ms if w h a t y o u ju s t s a id n o w [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll y o u ju s t n e e d to a n s w e r th e q u e s tio n Mis s D la min i

w e d o n o t n e e d a n y o th e r th in g .
20

MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s , w e w e r e , I w a s a lw a y s a v a ila b le a n d th e o r g a n is a tio n

is a lw a ys o p e n to e n g ag e w ith th e le a d e rs h ip o f SAA in te r ms o f th e w o r k
th a t h a s b e e n d o n e th e r e , w h a t n e e d s to be d o n e mo v in g fo r w ar d a n d a t
th is s ta g e we h a ve n ev e r r e c e iv e d an y in dic a tio n fr o m th e ir s ide to s ay
th is is th e w o r k th a t h a s b ee n d o n e th er e , ca n w e me e t a n d d e lib e ra te o n
th a t? So I th in k i t w ill b e v e r y mu c h u n e th ic a l to s a y a n o r g a n isa tio n th a t

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is ma n d a te d to e x e c u te th o s e r e s p o ns ib ilitie s a n d s ta te s e c u r ity h a d
in v e s te d a lo t o f r e s ou r ce s o n th is p a r ticu la r p r o jec t b e ca u se w e ha d to
e x e cu te it a c c or d in g to ou r ma nd a te , I th in k it w ill b e r e a lly u n fa ir to s ta te
th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d s h o u ld p r o je c ts a c h iev e th e pu r p os es th a t

th e y a r e d e s ign e d to a c h iev e ?
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:
10

D o y o u a c c e p t th a t th is p r o je c t d id n o t?

I d o n o t a c c e p t it .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

L e t u s ta lk a b o u t w h a t d id h a p p en a fte r th e

v e ttin g , b e c a u s e y o u s a id Sta te Se c u r ity w o u ld h a v e b e e n a va ila b le to
e n g a g e w ith ma n ag e me n t a n d th e Bo a r d on fu r th e r p r o ce ss e s an d I w a n t
to k n o w w h e th er y o u a r e aw a r e o f th is , th e s e fa c ts a n d if n o t I w ill a s k
y o u c er ta in fo llo w u p q u e s tio n s .
MS D LA MIN I:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

We h e a r d in e v id en c e in th is C o mmis s ion th a t

Mis s My e n i th e fo r mer C ha ir p er s on o f th e Bo a r d o f SAA w a n te d to u s e th e
fa c t th a t Mis s O lits k i c ou ld n o t g e t c lea ra n c e be c a us e s h e h ad d u a l
c itiz e n s h ip to r e mo v e h er fr o m th e fin a n c e r o le s h e o cc u p ie d be c a us e sh e
20

w a s n o t d o in g w h a t Mis s My e n i w a n te d h e r to d o . We r e y o u a w a r e o f
th o s e fa c ts ?
MS D LA MIN I:

I a m n o t a w a r e o f th o s e fa c ts .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d if y o u a r e n o w a w a r e o f th e m w o u ld it c a u s e

y o u c o nc er n th a t th e o u tc o me o f th e v e ttin g e x e rc is e wa s b e in g us e d fo r
a n imp r o p e r p ur p os e ?

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
MS D LA MIN I:

I th in k I a m h e a r in g it fo r th e fir s t time Ad v o c a te H o fme yr

a n d o n e w o u ld h av e to r e a lly th in k a b o u t th at, y a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

L e t u s lo o k a t w h a t h a p p e n e d to Mis s Th u li

Ms h e , y o u s e e , Mis s Ms h e in d ic a te d th a t s h e w a s n o t w illin g to p r o v id e
th e r e q u ir e d in fo r ma tio n to th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e nc ie s , a n d on th e ,
Ag e n c y, a n d o n th e 1 9 t h J a n u ar y s h e r ec e ive d a s u s p e ns io n le tte r a n d o n e
o f th e c h a r g es s he fa c e d wa s h er r e fus a l to p r o v id e th e r e q u ir e d
in fo r ma tio n to SS A. Wo u ld y o u b e c o n c er ne d th a t th a t w a s a n imp r o p e r
u s e o f th e v e ttin g e x e r c ise c o n du c te d a t SA A?
10

MS D LA MIN I:

I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n y o f th e in s ta n c e s th a t y o u o u tlin in g

to d a y, s o I a m n o t in a p o s itio n r e a lly to c o mme n t o n th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

L e t me ju s t g iv e yo u th e fa c ts n ow.

So me b o d y

w h o w a s in th e Ac tin g C EO p o s itio n a t S AA a t a p o in t in time , r e fu s e d to
p r o v ide th e in fo r ma tio n r e q u ir e d b y th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n cy a n d th e
c o n se q u e nc e o f th a t is th a t o n e o f th e c h ar g e s s h e fa c ed w h en s h e w a s
s o u g h t to b e d is c ip lin e d , w as th a t s h e h a d n o t p r o v id e d th a t in fo r ma tio n
to th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y. As y o u s it h e r e to d a y d o y o u th in k th a t is
a n imp r o p e r us e o f th is v e ttin g e x e r c is e ?
MS D LA MIN I:
20

Ad v o c a te H o fme y r lo o k , n o w y o u a r e d r a w in g me to th e

is s u es o f SAA b e tw e e n th e C h a ir p e r so n o f SAA a n d th e o th e r e x e c u tiv es
w h ic h I th in k re a lly is n o t fa ir to me b e c aus e I a m h e a r ing w h a t yo u a re
s a y in g fo r th e fir s t time .

My jo b a n d my d u tie s w as to e n su r e th a t we

e x e cu te th e ma n d a te o f th e o r g a n is a tio n a n d I h a v e d o n e th a t to th e b e s t
o f my a b ility to r e p r e s e n t s ta te s e c u r ity. W h a t I c a n s a y, w e w e r e a b o ve
b o a r d in te r ms o f o u r p r o c e ss e s , in te r ms o f th e w o r k , in te r ms o f th e

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
te a m th a t w a s d e p lo y e d a t SAA a t th a t t ime .
in d iv id u a ls o n th e p r o je c t.

We h a d h ig h ly s k ille d

Th e p o ly g r a p h e x a min e rs , w e h a d th r e e

p o ly g ra p h e x a mine r s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , n o , n o M is s D la min i, Mis s H o fme y r h a s n o t a sk e d

y o u a b o u t a n y o f th o s e th in g s . It is a s imp l e q u e s tio n a n d I th o u g h t y o u –
y o u h ad p r ev io us ly g iv e n a n a n sw e r may b e in d ir e c tly, yo u sa id e a r lier o n ,
y o u w ill n o t a dv is e an e n tity to d is mis s pe op le w h o fa ile d se c ur ity v e ttin g ,
d id I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r re c tly ?
MS D LA MIN I:
10

Ye s – y e s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , a n d y o u s a id , y o u k n o w, I th in k y o u s a id

s o me th in g a lo n g th e lin e s th a t y o u k n ow th e r e a r e la b o ur la w s .
MS D LA MIN I:

In te r ms o f th a t y e s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

W h ic h g a v e me th e imp r e s s io n th a t y o u w e r e s ay in g a s

fa r a s y o u a r e c o nc e rn e d s o me bo d y sh o uld n o t b e d is mis s e d b e c a us e
th e y h a v e fa ile d s ec u r ity v e ttin g , is my u n d e r s ta n d in g o f y o u r ev id e nc e
c o r re c t?
MS D LA MIN I:

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t, b u t w h a t I a m tr y in g to e x p la in is to s a y

[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
20

MS D LA MIN I:

Ya , n o , h a n g o n .

Ye s .

C H A IR PER SO N:

W h a t Mis s H o fme y r is no w s ay in g to y o u , is a g a ins t

th a t b a c k g r o u nd , th e b a c k g ro u n d o f th a t e v id e n c e th a t y o u g a v e , h e r e is
s o me b o dy w h o re fu s e d to ta k e p a r t o r d is c los e in fo r ma tio n fo r v e ttin g
p u r p os e s a n d sh e w a s b e in g c ha r g ed w ith mis c o n du c t fo r – fo r th a t. D o
y o u r e g ar d th e c h a r g in g o f s o me b o d y be c a us e th e y r e fu s e to g iv e

Page 166 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
in fo r ma tio n to th e Se c u r ity Ag e n c y fo r v e ttin g p u r p o se s a s a cc e p ta b le o r
a s imp r o p er ?

Th a t is w h a t s h e is a s k ing , a n d I th in k s h e is a sk in g

a g a in s t th e b ac k gr o u nd th a t y o u ha d p re vio u s ly g iv e n ad v ic e th a t, y o u
k n ow, th e r e a r e la b o u r la ws a n d y o u w ill n o t a d v ic e th a t s o me b o dy s h o u ld
b e d is mis se d . Ar e y o u a b le to s ay w h e th er y o u w o u ld r e g ar d it a s p r o p er
o r imp r o pe r, ac c e p ta b le o r un a cc e p ta b le for s o me b o dy to b e c h ar g e d w ith
mis c o n du c t fo r r e fu s in g to g iv e in fo r ma tio n to S ta te Se c u r ity Ag e n cy fo r
v e ttin g p u r p o se s ?
MS D LA MIN I:
10

Th a n k y o u v e ry mu c h C h a ir p e rs o n fo r c la r ify in g th a t, I

th in k I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y ou s a y ing n o w. Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

MS D LA MIN I:

th in k ,

I

my

a p o lo g ie s

b e c a us e

I

th o u g h t

at

fir s t

[in te r v e n e s ].
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS D LA MIN I:

N o t a t a ll .

I th in k i t w o u ld b e v e r y imp ro p e r to d o th a t, y a .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , a n d do y o u Miss D la min i a cc e p t th a t

th e p e o p le w h o c on d uc te d th is v e ttin g o p e r a tio n a t SAA , h a d n o t b e e n
p r o p er ly in fo r me d a b o u t th e r e q u ir e me n ts of th e le g is la tio n , in s o fa r a s
s e c ur ity c o mp e te n ce is a r e q u ir e me n t fo r th e p u r p o s e o f v e ttin g to b e
20

a c h ie ve d ?
MS D LA MIN I:

N o I d o n o t a c c e p t th a t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C h a ir, I ju s t h a v e o n e o r tw o c o nc lu d in g as p ec ts

b u t r e a lly to a d d r e ss to y o u a b o u t a s u mma ry a t th e e n d o f th e e v id e n c e .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ya , th a t is fin e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ma y I p r o c e e d to th a t a n d th e n Mis s D la min i I a m

Page 167 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
s u r e w ill b e h a p py to b e e x c us e d .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

C h a ir, w e w ill ma k e s u b mis s io ns in d u e c o ur s e to

th is C o mmis s ion th a t th e ty p e o f s e c u r ity v e ttin g th a t w a s c o nd u c te d a t
SAA a n d c o n tr a r y to th e v ie ws , it a p p e a r s o f b o th fo r me r Min is te r s , a n d
in d e e d p os s ib ly th o s e w h o ex ec u te d th e v ettin g o p e r a tio n , th a t th a t ty p e
o f s e c u r ity v e ttin g ma y n o t la w fu lly b e u n d e r ta ke n u n le ss it is fir s t
e s ta b lis h ed th a t th o s e wh o a re to b e ve tte d h a ve a cc e ss to c las s ifie d
in fo r ma tio n in a ma n n e r in w h ic h th e y ma y b e a b le to d iv u lg e it to
10

u n a u th o r iz e d p e r so n s .

C h a ir w e w ill a l s o lik e ly in o u r s u b mis s io ns

r e c o mme nd th a t th is c la r ific a tio n o f th e le g a l p o s itio n fin d i ts w a y
s o me w he r e in to a n y r e p o r t p r e p a r e d b y th is C o mmis s io n b e c au s e it h a s
g r a v e imp lic a tio n s in a ll S ta te O w n e d En te r p r is es if w h a t is b e in g
c o n d uc te d b y th e Sta te Se c ur ity Ag e n c y is v e ttin g w h ic h d o e s n o t c o mp ly
in te r ms o f th e la w. C h a ir in c lo s u r e I w o u l d ju s t lik e to e mp h a s iz e w h y in
o u r s u b mis s io n th e e v ide n c e to d ay is in fa c t r e le v a n t to th e ma n d a te o f
th e C o mmis s io n , a n d w e ma k e tw o p o in ts in th a t r e g a r d .

C h a ir th e

C o mmis s ion is ta sk e d no t o n ly w ith e s ta b lis h in g wh e th e r Sta te C a p tur e ,
C o r ru p tio n a n d Fr a u d o c c ur r e d w ith in th e P u b lic Se r v ic e Se c to r. It is a ls o
20

r e q u ir ed to e x p lo r e ho w, if it d id h a p p e n , it h a p p e n e d a n d wh a t
r e c o mme nd a tio n s to mak e in d ue c o urs e in o rd e r to pr e v en t its
r e c ur r e nc e .

C h a ir it w ill b e o u r s u b mis s io n th a t u s in g th e In te llig e n c e

Se r v ic es o f th is c o u n tr y to c o n d u c t u n la w fu l v e ttin g o p e r a tio n s a t Sta te
O w n e d En te r pr is es a n d w h e re th a t v e ttin g o p e r a tio n is th en e mp lo ye d fo r
u lte r io r p u r p os es , ma y w e ll b e s h o w n to b e o n e o f th e w a y s in w h ic h Sta te

Page 168 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C a p tu r e , C or r up tio n a n d Fra u d is a llo w e d to ta k e p la ce in e n titie s s uc h as
SAA.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ya , n o I th in k th a t p a r tic u la r ly th e q u es tio n o f w h y w as

it u s e d , w ill b e v e r y imp o r ta n t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

In d e e d C h a ir.

Be c a u s e th e , it h a s b e e n s a id th a t c e r ta in in s titu tio n s ,

s ta te in s titu tio n s , ma y h a v e b e e n u s e d o r w e r e u s e d to a d v a n c e Sta te
C a p tu r e a n d to a d v a n ce c o r ru p tio n . So – s o it b e c o me s imp o r ta n t, I me a n
th e lo s s o f s ev e n ex e cu tiv e s , it w ill b e imp o r ta n t a ls o to s e e wh e th e r it is
10

c o n n ec te d w ith th e v e ttin g , th e o b je c tio n to th e v e ttin g , b u t a ls o wh e th e r
th e v e ttin g p r o c es s may h av e b e en u s ed in o r d e r to p us h ce r ta in p e o p le
o u t o f S AA, s o a ll o f th o s e th in g s w ill n e e d to b e e x p lo r ed .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

In d e e d C h a ir. Th a n k y o u .

Mis s D la min i th a n k y o u v e ry mu c h fo r co min g to g iv e

e v id e nc e w e a p p r ec ia te it. If w e n e e d y o u w e w ill a s k y o u to c o me b a c k
a g a in .
MS D LA MIN I:

I h o p e n o t.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Yo u h o p e n o t? Th a n k y ou v e r y muc h Mis s D la min i a n d

y o u a r e ex c us e d .
20

MS D LA MIN I:

Th a n k y o u v er y mu ch C h a ir pe r s o n .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS D LA MIN I:

Th a n k y o u .

Th a n k y o u Ad v oc a te H o fme yr.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u Miss D la min i.

my le a r n e d fr ie n d Mr Mb ik iwa .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , o k a y.

Page 169 of 190

If I ma y h a n d o v e r to

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
C H A IR PER SO N:

G o o d a fte r n o o n C h a ir.

G o o d a fte r n o o n .

D o fe e l fr e e to r is e a n d le a v e Mis s

D la min i.
MS D LA MIN I:

O k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a n k y o u . Ye s Mr Mb ik iw a . At lo n g la s t.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
C H A IR PER SO N:

A t lo n g la s t.

Ye s .

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

C h a ir c a n I b e g in b y a sk in g th a t th e file

c o n ta in in g Mr Y' s [in te r v e n es ].
10

C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll w e a r e n o w go in g to d e a l, h e a r th e ev id e nc e o f

Mr Y.
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

In d e e d C h a ir.

Yo u w o u ld lik e th a t h is a ffid a v it a n d a n n e x u re s

th a t to b e a d mi tte d a n d th e y b e ma r k e d Ex h ib it D D ( 2 3 ) ?
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a t is c o r r e c t Ch a ir, th a n k y o u .

It is s o o r d e r e d .

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

Th a n k y o u C ha ir.

C a n w e ju s t s ta r t w ith a

s o u n d ch e ck C h a ir? Mr Y a r e y o u a b le to h e a r me ?
MR Y:
20

Ye s I a m.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Fo r th e r e c or d I ju s t w ant to s ta te , Mr Y h a s ta k e n th e

p r e sc r ib ed o a th a s h e h a s b e en s w or n in , d o y o u c o n fir m th a t Mr Y?
MR Y:

I c o n fir m th a t C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a n k y o u .

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

Mr Y in fr o n t o f y o u th e r e s h ou ld b e a file

ma r k e d DD ( 23 ) , d o y o u h a ve th a t?

Page 170 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
MR Y:

I d o h a v e it.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

C a n I a s k y o u to o p e n th a t file a n d g o to p a g e

1 ? If y o u lo o k a t th e r e d n u mb e r s in th e to p r ig h t- h a n d c or n e r th os e a r e
th e p a g e n u mb e r s th a t I w ill r e fe r y o u t o d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f y o u r
e v id e nc e .
MR Y:

Ye s I a m th e r e .

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
MR Y:

I d o , it is a a ffid a v it d e p o s e d to b y my s e lf.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
10

D o y o u r e c o g n ise th a t d o c u me n t?

An d th a t a ffid a v it r u n s to p a g e 2 2 , s o r r y it

r u n s to p a g e 1 4 .
MR Y:

C o r r e c t.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

C a n y o u c o n fir m th a t th e c o n te n ts o f th e

a ffid a v it a r e tr u e a n d c o r r ec t?
MR Y:

I d o c o n fir m.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

Th a n k y o u .

Mr Y c a n y o u te ll u s w h e re y ou

a r e e mp lo y ed ?
MR Y:

I a m e mp lo y e d a t th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

An d I a m , I a m , I a m c a u tio u s n o t to a s k yo u

q u e s tio n s th a t w ill r e q u ir e y o u to r ev e a l y ou r id e n tity b u t yo u w ill te s tify
20

to d a y a b o u t a r a n g e o f fa c ts th a t r e la te to a Sp e c ia l O p e r a tio ns U n it.
MR Y:

Th a t is c o r r e c t.

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :
MR Y:

C a n y o u te ll u s h o w y o u kn o w a b ou t th a t u n it?

We ll w ith in th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y th e k n ow le d g e a bo u t th e

Sp e c ia l O p e r a tio ns U n it [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

One - one second.

Page 171 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
MR Y:

O k a y C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

I k n o w Mr Y th a t o f a ll o f u s , th a t y o u w o u ld b e th e o n e

p e r s on w h o w o u ld b e ve r y c a re fu l n o t to s a y a n y th in g th a t mig h t in d ir ec tly
r e v e a l yo u r id e n tity.
MR Y:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Bu t I d o ju s t w a n t to me n tio n th a t if y o u me n tio n y o u r

r e s p on s ib ilitie s , y o u r d u tie s , it ma y w e ll b e , th a t th a t c o u ld r e v e a l y o u r
id e n tity, s o a s y o u g iv e e v id e n ce ju s t k e e p an e y e o n th a t.
MR Y:
10

Th a n k y o u C h a ir I w ill.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MR Y:

Alr ig h t.

Th e k n o w le d g e a b o u t th e s p e c ific u n it I a m s p e a k in g a b o u t, w o u ld

b e k n o w led g e th a t th e Bo a r d me mb e r s h ip wo u ld b e a w a r e o f.
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR Y:

O k a y.

In a h ig h - le v e l r e v ie w- p a n e l r ep o r t, me n tio n is a ls o ma d e a b o u t

th e n e c es s ity o f su c h a u n it. So th a t in fo r ma tio n w o u ld a lso b e p ub lic ly
a v a ila b le in th e r e d ac te d v e rs io n .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR Y:

O k a y.

An d g e n e r a lly a u n it lik e th a t w o u l d d e a l w ith s tr a te g ic p r o jec ts

w h ic h a r e n o r ma lly v e ry s e n s itiv e a n d w ou ld in v o lv e th e u tiliz a tio n o f
20

u n d e rc o ve r me mb e rs o f th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n cy.
C H A IR PER SO N:
MR Y:

Ye s .

Th a t w a s th e p o s itio n u n til 2 0 1 2 w h e n th e ma n d a te o f th e

s tr u c tu re w as c h an g e d an d it b e c a me mo re o f a n a cc o u n t in te llig e n ce ,
c o mb in a tio n o f VIP p r o te c tio n a n d s u pp o r t to th e fo r me r Pr e s ide n t. I d o
n o t k n o w if I s h o u ld go fu r th e r a n d ind ic a te w h o w as a p p o in te d in c h ar g e

Page 172 of 190

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
a t th a t s ta g e ?
C H A IR PER SO N:

Mr Mb ik iw a w ill a s k y o u q u e s tio n s bu t y o u h av e ju s t

ma d e a r e fe r e n ce to th e fo r me r Pr e s id e n t. We h a v e q u ite a fe w fo r me r
Pr e s id e n ts in th e c o u n tr y w h o a r e s till a liv e , w h ic h o n e a r e y o u ta lk in g
a b o u t?
MR Y: Fo r me r Pr e s id e n t Zu ma .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t. Mr Mb ik iw a .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Th a n k y o u Mr Y. Be fo r e w e g e t th e r e , I w o u ld
ju s t lik e to u n d e rs ta n d b e fo re th is c h an ge o f ma n d a te th a t y o u h a v e
10

d e s cr ib e d , te ll u s a b ou t w h a t Sp e c ia l Op e r a tio n s w a s pr io r to th a t
d iv e rs io n . An d th e k in d o f th in g s th a t it d id ?
MR Y: R ig h t , a s I a llu d e d to y o u th e H ig h - L e v e l R ev ie w Pa n e l R e p o r t a
s tr u c tu re lik e th a t w ill d e a l w ith v e r y s e nsitiv e o p e r a tio n s in w h ic h th e
lin k s b e twe e n th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y o r g o v e rn me n t w o u ld n e e d to b e
h id d e n a n d p la u s ib le d e n ia b ility b e p r o v ide d .

So c la s s ica lly y o u w o u ld

lo o k a t c o u n te r te r r or is m o p er a tio n s o r tr a nsn a tio n a l o r g a n is e d c r ime .
If I h a d to q u a n tify th e fo c u s g iv e n w ith in t h e in te llig e n c e c o mmu n ity, w e
s p e ak a b o u t be tw e e n 80 % to 9 0 % o f in fo r ma tio n b e in g a va ila b le th r ou g h
o p e n s ou r ce . Th a t w o u ld le a v e b e tw ee n 1 0% a n d 2 0 % w h ic h w o u ld n e e d
20

c o n ve r t me a ns a n d o f th a t 1 0 % to 2 0 % a n e v e n s ma lle r po r tio n w ou ld
r e la te to a s tr uc tu r e lik e Sp ec ia l O p er a tio ns . U s in g un d e rc ov e r me mb er s
a s it is e x p e n s iv e d e p en d in g w he r e yo u a re o p e r a tin g y o u ha v e to ma k e
s u r e y o u c o mp ly w ith a ll th e r u le s a n d r e g u la tio n s r e la tin g to b u s in e s s
e n titie s a n d s o o n . Th a t w a s th e s itu a tio n u p u n til 2 0 1 2 .
C H A IR PER SO N: O n e s e c o nd . Th a n k y o u . Ye s .

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr Y, y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d o n a
fe w o c c a s io n s to th e H ig h - L e v e l R e po r t. I ju s t w a n t to f la g th a t th a t is
s o me th in g w e a r e g o in g to c o me to in d u e c o u r s e .
MR Y: Alr ig h t .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Bu t c a n y o u te ll u s w h o th e me mb e r s o f a u n it
lik e th is w o u ld h av e b e e n ?
me mb e r s .

An d I d o n o t me a n th e id e n tity o f th e

I ju s t me a n th e le v e l o f s pe c ia lis a tio n a nd tr a in in g th a t

me mb e r s o f a u n it lik e th is w o u ld r e c e iv e .
MR Y:
10

We ll, th e y w o u ld b e fu ll me mb e r s o f th e Sta te Se c u r ity Ag e n c y

h o w ev e r th e y ’re id e n titie s w o u ld b e p r o tec te d . So , th e y w o u ld n o t d e c la r e
to p e o p le - to th e p ub lic th a t th e y ar e me mb e r s o f th e Sta te Se c u r ity
Ag e n c y. H ow e ve r, th e y wo u ld s ha r e th e same b e n e fits in te r ms o f s a la ry,
me d ic a l a id , p e n s io n b e ne fits .
Ma y b e I mu s t jus t d r a w d is tin c tio n b e tw e e n w h a t w e r e fe r to as
u n d e rc o ve r me mb e r s a n d th e d iffe r e n c e w ith in a c r ime in te llig e n c e
e n v ir on me n t.

We r e fe r to a g e n ts th a t a r e n o t me mb e r s o f th e Sta te

Se c u r ity Ag e n cy a n d a re n o r ma lly r ec r u ite d to p r o v id e u s w ith in fo r ma tio n .
W h e r e as w ith in th e c r ime in te llig e n c e a n d Po lic e u n d e r c ov er o p e r a tio n s ,
a g e n t th e r e r e fer s to a me mb er.
20

So , w ith r e g a r ds to Sta te Se c u r ity

Ag e n c y y ou w o u ld h a v e fu ll me mb e r b e in g p a r t o f s u c h a u n it a n d in th e
c o u rs e o f th e ir w o r k th e y w o u ld in te r act w ith a g e n ts w h o a r e n o t
me mb e r s .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

Th a n k y o u .

I f w e c a n p ic k it u p a t y o u r

a ffid a v it a t p a g e 9 . Th a t is in D D 2 3 .
MR Y: O k a y.

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d p a r tic u lar ly fr o m p a r a g r ap h 3 .4 y o u b e g in
to ta lk a b o u t th e d iv e r s io n in th e ma n d a te o f th e Sp e c ia l O p e r a tio n s u n it.
MR Y: C o r r e c t.
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C a n y ou te ll u s h o w th is - th e u n it’s ma n d a te
w a s c ha n g e d?
MR Y: We ll th e imme d ia te i mp a c t w o u ld h a v e b e e n th a t th e u n d e r c o v e r
me mb e r s w h o w er e p a r t o f th a t s tr u c tu r e w o u ld h a v e n o w b e e n e xp o se d to
th e p r o te c tio n d e ta il o f th e fo r me r Pr e s id e n t Mr Zu ma . Th e y w o u ld s ta r t
d o in g p a r a lle l du tie s w ith s tr uc tu r e s lik e th e Pr e s id e n tia l Pr o te c tio n u n it
10

w h o a r e r e s p on s ib le fo r th e p r o te c tio n o f t h e Pr e s id e n t. So a lr e a d y th e
fa c t th a t th e y a r e n o w b e in g ex p os e d to oth e r me mb e r s o f th e s ec u r ity
c lu s te r me a ns th a t th e y c a n n o lo n g e r go fu n c tio n in a n u n d e r c ov e r
c a p ac ity.
Th e s e c on d a p p r oa c h wo u ld h a v e b ee n th a t th e y w o u ld n o lo n g e r b e
w o r k in g o n me d iu m to lo n g - te r m o p er a tio ns .

Bu t w o u ld b e d e a lin g w ith

imme d ia te ta c tic a l s itu a tio n s w h e r e th e y w ou ld d e p lo y to w o r k a r ou n d th e
s e c ur ity o f th e Pr e s id e n t.

So , y o u lo o k ing a t t ime fr a me s o f b e tw e e n a

mo n th to th r e e mo n th s ve rs u s inv es tin g in p e o p le th a t n e ed to b e in
p o s itio n fo r a n y th in g b e tw e en th r e e to 1 5 y ea r s fo r a r g u men t s a k e .
20

A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA:

An d h o w p r ac tic a lly wa s th is c h a n ge in th e

ma n d a te o f a Sp e c ia l O p e r a tio n s u n it c a r r ied o u t?
MR Y:

I t h a p p e n e d w ith th e a p p o in tme n t o f Mr Th u la n i D lo mo a s

me n tio n e d in p a r a g r a p h 4 .1 o f my a ffid a v it a n d a ll th e me mb e r s o f th e
s tr u c tu re w e r e in fo r med th a t th e y w e r e n o lo n g e r g o ing to b e w o r k ing o n
id e n tifie d fo c u s a r e as fo r in s ta n c e tr a nsn a tio n a l o r g a n is e d c r ime or

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
c o u n te r te r r or is m.

Bu t th e y w o u ld n o w b e d o in g mo r e r is k a ss e ss me n t

a n d s e cu r ity d ir ec tly r e la te d to th e Pr e s id e nt, Mr Zu ma a t th e time .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d w h a t p o s ition d id Mr D lo mo h o ld ?
MR Y:

H e wa s ap p o in te d th e G en e r a l Ma n a g e r o f th e ne w Sp ec ia l

O p e r a tio n s u n it in 2 0 1 2 .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

An d w h o w o u ld h e h a v e r e p o r te d to in th a t

p o s itio n ?
MR Y: Pa r t o f th e c h a n g e w as th e s h iftin g o f th e Sp e c ia l O p s u n it fr o m
o n e D e p u ty D ir e c tor G e n e r a l re s p on s ib le fo r d o me s tic o p e ra tio n s to a
10

D e p u ty D ire c to r G e ne r a l r es p o ns ib le fo r c o un te r in te llig e n c e o p e ra tio n s .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d c a n y o u g iv e u s a s e ns e o f th e s iz e o f th is
u n it?
MR Y: I t w o u ld b e d i ffic u lt b e c a u s e p a r t o f th e c h a lle n g e w e fa c e d w ith a t
th e mo me n t is th a t o b v io u s ly a lth o u g h th e s tr u c tu re w as n o t u n d er c ov er,
th e y s till- th e ir o p er a tio n s we r e on a ne e d - to -k n o w b a s is .

So , th e

k n o w led g e I h a v e h a s a ls o b e e n r e q u ir e d t h r o u g h c er ta in in v e s tig a tio n s .
Th e s tr u c tur e e n d ed u p w ith a p pr o x ima te ly 3 0 me mb e rs b u t a lto g e th e r
th e y w o u ld h a ve d e p loy e d in e xc e ss o f a 100 . So , y o u w o u ld h a v e h a d 30
me mb e r s an d th e n th e r e s t wo u ld h av e bee n a g e n ts d e p loy e d to d o th e
20

s a me w o rk .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA :

An d h o w w o u ld th e s e me mb e r s a n d a ge n ts

h a v e b e en r e cr u ite d ?
MR Y: Th e y w e r e r e c r u ite d d ire c tly b y th e Sp e c ia l O p e r a tio n s s tru c tu r e .
N o t th e n o r ma l H R p r o c e ss th a t a n y o n e e ls e a p p ly in g to Sta te Se c u r ity
Ag e n c y. Th e y w e r e id e n tifie d a n d th e n th e n a me s w e r e g iv e n th r o u gh a n d

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
in d ic a tio n s we r e th a t, p le a s e a p p o in t th e s e me mb e r s w ith in th e s tr u c tu re .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d w e r e th e y f o r me r ly me mb e rs o f th e S ta te
Se c u r ity Ag e nc y ?
MR Y: N o , th e r e w a s a h a n d fu l o f me mb e r s - I w o u ld n o t lik e to g iv e a
s p e c ific n u mbe r b u t it w o u ld b e a ny th in g be tw e e n fiv e a n d 1 0 th a t w e re
fo r me r ly me mb e rs o f th e p r e v io u s s tr uc tu r e w h o w e re r e s ur fa c es a n d th e n
w e r e u tilis e d to c o n tin u e w ith th e ir n e w a c tiv itie s . An d th e n th e r e s t w e r e
n e w r e cr u its th a t w a s s o ur ce d b y Mr D lo mo h ims e lf.
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d if y o u g o to p a r a g ra p h - s o rr y, to p a g e 1 0
10

o f y o u r a ffid a v it y o u d e a l w ith s o me o f th e fu n c tio n s th a t th is u n it
p e r fo r me d .
MR Y: Ye s .
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : C a n y o u ta lk us th r o u g h th o se fu n c tio n s ?
MR Y: Alr ig h t. Yo u w ill s e e th a t in p a r a g r ap h 4 .4 I u s e th e w o r d p a ra lle l.
I th in k it is a tr e n d th a t y o u w ill se e be c a us e th e s tr uc tu r e ac tu a lly
d u p lic a te d fu n c tio ns th a t w e r e e ith er p a r t o f o th e r u n its w ith in Sta te
Se c u r ity Ag e n cy o r o th er s tak e h o lde r d epa r tme n ts th a t w e wo u ld wo r k
to g e th e r w ith .
So ,

20

fo r

in s ta n c e

you

w o u ld

h av e

th e TSC M

w h ic h

is

Te c h n ic a l

Su r v e illa nc e C o u n ter Me a s u re s w h ic h w ere b r o u g h t to g e th e r u n d er th e
c o mma n d o f Mr D lo mo a lth o u g h th e fu n c tio n a c tu a lly r e s o r te d u n d er
a n o th e r SSA s tr uc tu r e .

Th e y w e r e d e d ic a te d to d o in g th is fu n c tio n

d ir e c tly fo r th e Pr e s id e n t.
A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA: Mr Y, I a m s o r r y to d o th is b u t c a n I in te r r u p t
y o u th e r e . C h a ir I a m in fo r me d th a t th e r e is a te c h n ic a l is s u e w ith th e

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s o u n d fe e d a n d to a sk if w e c o u ld a d jo u r n for 5 min u te s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. L e t u s a d jo u r n th e n fo r 5 min u te s . We a d jo u r n .
R EG ISTR A R : All r is e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a k e i t th e p r o b le m h a s b e e n s o lv e d .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s e e ms t o h a v e b e e n s o lv e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te c h n i c a l p r o b l e m .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r Y, a r e y o u s ti ll t h e r e ?
M R Y : I a m h e r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let us proceed.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r Y w e le f t o ff w i t h y o u e x p l a i n i n g t o u s th e
f u n c t i o n s t h a t t h e S p e c ia l O p e r a ti o n s u n i t p e r f o r m e d a f t e r t h e d iv e r s i o n
of its mandate.

A n d y o u w e r e t e l li n g u s w h a t p a r a ll e l t e c h n ic a l

s u r v e il la n c e c o u n t e r m e a s u r e s w e r e , I b e l i e v e .
M R Y : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f I c o u l d a s k y o u t o s t a r t a t th e b e g i n n in g o f
where you were just in case it was not recorded?
20

MR Y:

A lr i g h t.

S o , t h e T S C M f u n c t io n w h ic h i s t h e Te c h n i c a l

S u r v e il la n c e C o u n te r M e a s u r e f u n c t i o n w a s d u p l ic a te d .

So, what you

w o u ld h a v e i s w e h a v e a s tr u c tu r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th a t w h i c h w o u ld
p r o v i d e s e r v ic e s to g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts t o m a k e s u r e t h a t m e e t in g
v e n u e s a r e c l e a n i n t e r m s o f i n te r c e p t i o n s .

B u t y o u t h e n h a d th e

c a p a c i ty c r e a te d w i th in S p e c ia l O p e r a t i o n s t h a t o n ly s e r v i c e d th e

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
P r e s i d e n t w h e r e v e r h e w o u ld tr a v e l.
I f y o u lo o k fu r t h e r in t o t h e a ffi d a v i t t h e u n it to o k o v e r fu n c t i o n s r e l a t e d
t o o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts .

O n e w o u ld b e t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n

M il i ta r y H e a l th S e r v ic e s w h o a r e r e s p o n s i b le f o r t o x ic o l o g y. T h e P o l ic e
S e r v ic e w h o a r e t h e o n l y d e p a r t m e n t w i t h a m a n d a te t o d o t h e p h y s ic a l
p r o t e c t io n b u t th e s p e c i a l o p e r a t io n m e m b e r s w e r e tr a i n e d a s V I P
protectors.

I f y o u l o o k a t t h e D e f e n c e F o r c e a n d s p e c i fi c a ll y t h e A ir

Force, Special Operations members were designated to guard the
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ’s a e r o p la n e . S o , a ll o f t h e s e a r e f u n c t i o n s t h a t w e r e
10

e i t h e r d u p li c a t e d f r o m w i th i n S S A o r o n b e h a l f o f o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e - w h a t y o u d e s c r ib e d e a r l ie r a s V I P
p r o t e c t io n s e r v ic e s , a r e t h o s e s e r v ic e s t h a t t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y
w o u ld o r d i n a r i ly p e r f o r m ?
M R Y:

N o , t h e m a n d a te f o r t h a t li e s w it h t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e

S e r v ic e s .

H o w e v e r, m a y b e j u s t a c a v e a t w e w o u l d u t il is e V I P

p r o t e c t o r s t o p r o t e c t p e o p l e w it h in th e S t a te S e c u r it y A g e n c y, v i s i t o r s
fr o m f o r e i g n i n te ll i g e n c e s e r v ic e s . W e w o u l d a ls o a l l o c a t e t h e m o n e o f
our protectors.

B u t t h a t w o u ld b e o n a n a g r e e m e n t b a s i s w i t h t h e

S o u th A f r i c a n P o li c e S e r v ic e . N o m e m b e r s o f P a r l ia m e n t , M i n i s te r s , a l l
20

o f t h e ir p r o te c t i o n f a l ls u n d e r s p e c i fi c u n i t s w i t h i n th e P o lic e S e r v ic e .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . I w o u l d lik e to th e n t u r n t o y o u r
e v i d e n c e i n r e s p e c t o f th e p r o v i s i o n o f p r o t e c ti o n s e r v i c e s to M s M y e n i.
A n d w e p ic k t h a t u p - s o r r y C h a ir, I s e e y o u r e a c h i n g f o r t h e
m ic r o p h o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I- b e fo r e w e h a d th e b r e a k , I th o u g h t I w o u l d a s k

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M r Y. Mr Y, a t s o m e s t a g e y o u w e r e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e n u m b e r s
of the people in this unit.

A n d y o u w e r e m e n t io n in g a m u c h l o w e r

n u m b e r t h a n th e n u m b e r t h a t I s e e a t 4 .3 . I s t h e r e a n y s i g n i f ic a n c e t o
the discrepancy?
M R Y : C h a ir p e r s o n . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : In 4 .3 y o u s a y . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
M R Y : Ye s 2 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja you say you understand that it was about 200

a g e n ts .
10

M R Y : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I t h i n k e a r li e r y o u t a lk e d a b o u t 2 0 o r s o m e t h i n g

lik e th a t .
MR Y:
SSA.

Th e l o w e r n u m b e r t h e 2 0 t o 3 0 w o u ld b e f u l l m e m b e r s o f th e
T h e 2 0 0 I a m r e fe r r i n g t o h e r e a r e n o t m e m b e r s o f t h e S t a te

S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o it is tw o d i ff e r e n t c a t e g o r ie s .
M R Y : Ye s . In P o li c e t e r m s t h e s e w o u l d b e c l a s s i fi e d a s i n fo r m e r s f o r
la c k o f a b e t te r w o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , f o r th e 2 0 0 ?
20

M R Y : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. H a s h e c o v e r e d t h a t p a r t? O r y o u p l a n to
d e a l w it h i t la t e r
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C h a ir h e d i d d e a l w it h t h e is s u e o f

r e c r u it m e n t a n d w it h t h e is s u e o f t h e m e m b e r s fr o m w it h in S S A .
asked him whether there were members within SSA.

Page 180 of 190

I

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

I a m g r a t e f u l t o y o u f o r th e c l a r i fic a ti o n o f

the 200.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d t h e q u e s t io n o f w h e r e t h e y s e e m t o h a v e

b e e n r e c r u i t e d m a i n ly fr o m a s w e l l, h e d e a lt w i t h th a t ?
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : H e d i d n o t g iv e t h e p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

Yo u i n d i c a t e i n y o u r a ff id a v i t w h e r e th e

a g e n ts w e r e r e c r u it e d f r o m M r Y. C o u ld y o u e x p la i n t h a t?
10

M R Y : Ye s . M o s t o f th e r e c r u i ts w e r e r e c r u i t e d fr o m K w a Z u l u N a t a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R Y : I c a n n o t g i v e y o u fa c t u a l r e a s o n f o r th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR Y:

O t h e r t h a n to m a k e c e r t a i n a s s u m p t io n s a n d d e d u c ti o n s g iv e n

t h e s u p p o r t b a s e o f th e p e o p l e i n v o l v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y w e r e g iv e n - w e r e t h e y g iv e n a n y tr a i n in g ?
M R Y : Ye s , C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly p r o v id e d tr a i n in g w h i c h i s
n o r m a l ly o n ly r e s e r v e d f o r m e m b e r s o f th e S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR Y:

S o , th e y w e r e p r o v i d e d tr a i n i n g i n fo r e i g n c o u n t r i e s a n d th o s e

c o u n tr i e s w o u l d n o t k n o w t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e n o t f u ll m e m b e r s o f t h e
S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
t h a t a s p e c t.

A n d o b v i o u s ly t h e r e is s e n s i t iv i ty in t e r m s o f

S o , w h a t y o u h a d w a s p e o p le w h o w e r e n o t m e m b e r s o f

t h e A g e n c y b u t h o w e v e r w e r e h i g h l y t r a in e d a s c o u n te r i n t e ll ig e n c e
o ffic e r s b o t h i n V I P p r o t e c ti o n , t h e g a t h e r i n g o f i n t e ll i g e n c e a n d

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
a s p e c ts l ik e t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Y, if w e c a n t h e n t u r n
t o p a g e 11 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
M R Y : O k a y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

W h e r e y o u d e a l w i th th e p r o v is io n o f

s e c u r i ty p r o t e c ti o n s e r v ic e s to M s M y e n i .
M R Y : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u t e ll u s h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t th is
10

u n i t p r o v i d e d s u c h s e r v ic e s to M s M y e n i?
MR Y:

W e l l C h a ir, I m u s t h o n e s t w e h a v e fo u n d n o p a p e r w o r k t h a t

w o u ld in d ic a t e e i t h e r a r e q u e s t o r a n in s t r u c t io n fr o m w i t h i n th e A g e n c y.
A n d t h e f ir s t in d i c a t io n s t h a t w e g o t t h a t th is o c c u r r e d w a s fr o m t h e
H i g h - L e v e l R e v i e w P a n e l R e p o r t w h e r e i t m e n ti o n s n o t o n ly M s M y e n i
b u t c e r t a i n o t h e r p o li ti c a l l e a d e r s .
O b v io u s ly a s w e h a v e b e e n in v o lv e d i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s , w e a r e a w a r e
t h a t th e s e a g e n t s , t h e g r o u p o f th e 2 0 0 , w e r e a ll o c a te d to s p e c i f ic
p e o p l e w h o c o u ld b e s e e n a s b e in g s u p p o r t e r s o f th e - o f f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w h o m a y h a v e b e e n f a c in g c e r t a i n d i ffi c u l ti e s .
20

And

w o u ld n o t b e e li g i b l e f o r o ff ic i a l p r o t e c ti o n fr o m t h e S A P S .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . Yo u h a v e r e f e r r e d a g a i n to t h e
H i g h - L e v e l R e v i e w P a n e l a n d I t h i n k i t i s a p p r o p r ia t e n o w t h a t w e g o t o
t h a t . I f I c a n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 1 6 8 o f y o u r b u n d le .
M R Y : O k a y C h a ir, I a m th e r e .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

Yo u a r e t h e r e q u ic k e r th a n I a m .

Page 182 of 190

Yo u w i ll

19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
s e e t h e r e t h a t o n t h e c o v e r p a g e i t s a y s H ig h - L e v e l R e v i e w P a n e l
R e p o r t o n t h e S ta t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . A n d i f y o u lo o k
in t h e f o o t e r i t s a y s , R e p o r t o f t h e H i g h - L e v e l R e v ie w P a n e l o n th e
SSA.
MR Y: Correct.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th a t d o c u m e n t y o u w il l s e e r u n s t o p a g e
2 7 3 i n th e b u n d l e .
M R Y : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 1 7 3 . I j u s t w a n t t o r e a d
10

t h e s e t w o p a r a g r a p h s i n t o th e r e c o r d C h a ir t o g iv e s o m e c o n t e x t t o
w h a t th is P a n e l w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s a y s ;
T h e H i g h - L e v e l R e v i e w P a n e l i n to t h e S t a te S e c u r it y A g e n c y S S A o r
A g e n c y w a s e s t a b li s h e d b y Pr e s i d e n t C y r il R a m a p h o s a i n J u n e 2 0 1 8
b e g a n i t s w o r k in J u l y 2 0 1 8 a n d w a s g i v e n 6 m o n t h s t o s u b m i t it s
report.
T h e k e y o b j e c ti v e fo r t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h e P a n e l w a s t o e n a b l e t h e
r e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f a P r o fe s s i o n a l N a ti o n a l I n t e lli g e n c e C a p a b i li ty fo r

20

S o u th A fr ic a t h a t w i ll r e s p e c t a n d u p h o ld th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d t h e
r e l e v a n t l e g is la t iv e p r e s c r i p ts .
The Panel was chaired by Dr Sydney Mufamadi and included 9 other
m e m b e r s w i th a w i d e r a n g e o f s e n i o r l e v e l e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r ti s e in
la w, s e c u r i ty s t u d y, c iv il s o c i e t y, a c a d e m ia , t h e i n t e l li g e n c e a n d
s e c u r i ty c o m m u n it y a n d o t h e r a r m s o f g o v e r n m e n t.

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T h e P a n e l w a s s u p p o r t e d b y a s e c r e t a r i a t p r o v i d e d b y t h e A g e n c y.
M r Y, c a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 2 3 6 b e c a u s e t h a t i s
t h e p o r ti o n o f t h is r e p o r t th a t d e a l s w i th S p e c i a l O p e r a ti o n s ?
M R Y : A lr i g h t .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e a t 9 - p a r a g r a p h 9 . 3 .5
t h e h e a d i n g is S p e c i a l O p e r a t io n s .
MR Y: Correct.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s a y s ;
A c c o r d i n g t o i n f o r m a t io n p r o v id e d t o th e P a n e l a S O u n it ( S p e c i a l
10

O p e r a t io n s U n i t) w a s fir s t s e t u p in th e t h e n N I A in o r a r o u n d 1 9 9 7 .
Wa s s u b s e q u e n t ly s h u t d o w n d a te n o t k n o w n a n d r e o p e n e d a g a i n i n o r
a r o u n d 2 0 0 2 a n d a p p a r e n t ly c a r r i e d o v e r i n to t h e S S A .
D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i th y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e o r i g in s o f t h is
S p e c ia l O p e r a ti o n s U n i t?
M R Y : Ye s c o r r e c t . T h is p a r a g r a p h w o u ld r e fe r t o th e , i f I c a n s a y t h e
le g i t i m a te m a n d a te o f t h e s tr u c t u r e . A n d i t is t r u e w h a t is m e n t io n e d
here.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

Indeed.

T h i s i s - i n y o u r e v id e n c e e a r li e r

w h a t y o u d e s c r i b e d a s th e p o s i ti o n p r i o r to 2 0 1 2 .
20

MR Y: Correct.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i t s a y s ;
T h e n o t io n o f t h e S p e c i a l O p e r a ti o n s u n i t i n I n te ll ig e n c e , M i li t a r y a n d
P o lic e s e r v i c e s is n o t a t a ll u n u s u a l .

N o r m a l ly i t e n t a ils u n it s w h o

w o r k s u n d e r d e e p e r c o v e r o f t h e s e r v ic e a n d w h o w o r k o n p a r tic u l a r ly
s e n s i t iv e o p e r a ti o n s a g a i n s t p a r ti c u la r ly s e r i o u s t a r g e t s o r is s u e s a n d

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u s u a ll y a t a N a t i o n a l l e v e l. M e m b e r s o f s u c h u n i ts a r e s u p p o s e d to b e
h i g h ly tr a i n e d a n d p a r tic u la r ly c o m p e t e n t .
I n t h e c a s e o f N I A a n d S S A s u c h a u n i t w o u l d b e b a s e d a t H e a d O ffi c e
a n d w o r k o n N a ti o n a l p r o je c t s o f p a r tic u l a r s e r io u s n e s s t h a t c a n n o t b e
a s s ig n e d t o a p r o v in c i a l o r o t h e r s tr u c t u r e .
MR Y: Correct.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

Again, is that part of what you have

d e s c r ib e d a s t h e l e g i ti m a t e m a n d a t e o f a S p e c i a l O p e r a t i o n s U n i t .
M R Y : Ye s , c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C a n I th e n a s k y o u t o r e a d th e t h ir d

paragraph?
MR Y: Right.
T h e P a n e l p r o b e d r e l a ti v e ly d e e p ly a n d w i d e ly in t o t h e is s u e o f S O .
To w a r d s th e e n d o f i ts li b e r a ti o n s i t r e c e i v e d a b r ie f in g fr o m t h e O ff ic e
o f th e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f In t e l li g e n c e o n a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n i t is
c u r r e n tly c o n d u c t in g i n to S O t h a t i t h o p e s t o c o n c lu d e b y th e e n d o f t h e
c u r r e n t f in a n c ia l y e a r.
T h e P a n e l w i ll m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s r e g a r d in g t h i s b e l o w.

For the

p u r p o s e s o f t h is c h a p t e r o f o u r r e p o r t w e h ig h l i g h t k e y e l e m e n ts o f w h a t
20

w a s p r e s e n te d t o t h e P a n e l o n S O p a r t ic u la r ly i n r e l a ti o n t o th e n a k e d
p o li t ic i s a t io n o f i n t e lli g e n c e i n r e c e n t y e a r s .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A r e y o u a b l e t o s h e d a n y l ig h t
o n t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e f e r r e d to b y t h e O f fi c e o f t h e In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l
o f I n te ll i g e n c e ?
M R Y : I a m C h a ir, i t w a s b a s e d o n c e r ta i n c o m p l a in ts t h a t c a m e fr o m

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s o m e o f t h e a g e n ts t h a t- t h e ir c o m p l a in t w a s t h e ir s a l a r ie s w a s
s t o p p e d . W h a t t h e y c a l le d s a l a r i e s a n d t h e y o p e n e d u p c o m p l a i n ts w i th
t h e O ffi c e o f t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l . I n t h e c o u r s e o f i n t e r v i e w i n g t h o s e
a g e n ts o b v io u s ly th e In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l ’s o ffic e th e n b e c a m e a w a r e o f
t h e c e r ta in o p e r a ti o n s t h a t w e r e r u n n i n g t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n u n l a w fu l .
A s f a r a s I k n o w t h e r e p o r t h a s n o t b e e n f in a l is e d y e t a n d i t is r u n n in g
p a r a ll e l w i t h a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n th a t is t a k i n g p l a c e in t o t h e s a m e is s u e s
b u t fr o m w i t h i n S S A i ts e lf .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 2 3 7 .
10

It says;
T h e P a n e l w a s a b l e t o i d e n t if y th e k e y p l a y e r in t h e p o li t ic i s a t io n o f S O
a n d t h e S S A i n g e n e r a l. T h e m e m b e r is c u r r e n tly s e r v i n g g o v e r n m e n t
in a s e n i o r c a p a c it y. A c c o r d in g t o r e p o r ts h e w a s d e p l o y e d to S S A b y
t h e t h e n P r e s i d e n t v i a t h e M in is t e r a t t h e ti m e t o h e a d u p t h e S p e c i a l
O p e r a t io n s C h i e f D ir e c t o r a t e .
A r e y o u a b le t o s h e d a n y l i g h t o n w h o is b e in g r e fe r r e d t o
there?
M R Y : T h a t is Mr T h u l a n i D l o m o .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

20

R ig h t .

Yo u r - in t e r m s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e

e a r l ie r w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e d i v e r s i o n o f th e m a n d a t e o f t h e u n i t .
MR Y: Correct.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

I w o u l d l ik e t h e n t o g o t o t h e p a r a g r a p h

s t a r ti n g w i th , i t is c le a r.
MR Y: Right, yes.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s c l e a r to t h e P a n e l th a t t h e S S A S O u n i t

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e s p e c i a l ly u n d e r t h e w a t c h o f th e m e m b e r m e n t io n e d a b o v e w a s a la w
o n t o i ts e lf a n d d ir e c tly s e r v e d t h e p o l i tic a l i n t e r e s t o f t h e E x e c u tiv e . It
a ls o

u n d e r to o k

in t e l li g e n c e

o p e r a ti o n s

which

were

c l e a r ly

u n c o n s t i tu t io n a l a n d i ll e g a l .
I n f o r m a t io n m a d e a v a il a b l e to t h e P a n e l in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e s e o p e r a t io n s
in c l u d e d i n t e r a li a t h e t r a in i n g o f u n d e r c o v e r a g e n ts in V I P p r o t e c ti o n
a n d a s s i g n i n g s o m e o f th e s e to p r o v i d e p r o te c t i o n to th e t h e n P r e s i d e n t
a s w e ll a s t o o t h e r s w h o w e r e n o t e n t i tl e d t o s u c h p r o t e c ti o n s u c h a s
t h e f o r m e r c h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s B o a r d .
D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e - w h a t y o u

10

d e s c r ib e d a s th e d iv e r s i o n o f th e m a n d a t e o f t h e S p e c i a l O p e r a t i o n s
U n i t?
M R Y: C o r r e c t . I w o u l d j u s t w a n t to c l a r i fy t h e tr a i n i n g o f u n d e r c o v e r
a g e n ts .

T h e u n d e r c o v e r t h e r e s h o u l d n o t b e s e e n a s i m p ly i n g t h a t

t h e s e a g e n ts w e r e m e m b e r s o f th e S t a te S e c u r i t y A g e n c y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n o v e r t o
p a g e 2 3 8 a n d j u s t t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h a b o v e Ex e c u ti v e in v o lv e m e n t i n
o p e r a ti o n s ?
M R Y : Ye s .
20

A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s a y s t h e r e ;
I t is c l e a r f r o m t h e a b o v e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d o th e r i n f o r m a ti o n a v a il a b l e to
t h e P a n e l t h a t S p e c ia l O p e r a ti o n s h a d l a r g e ly b e c o m e a p a r a l le l
in t e l li g e n c e s tr u c t u r e s e r v i n g a fa c t i o n o f t h e r u li n g p a r ty a n d i n
p a r t ic u l a r t h e p e r s o n a l p o li t ic a l i n t e r e s t o f t h e s i t ti n g Pr e s id e n t o f t h e
p a r t y a n d c o u n tr y.

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I w il l p a u s e t h e r e . D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h a t ?
M R Y : I w o u l d a g r e e w it h th a t .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t th e n s a y s ;
T h i s is i n d ir e c t b r e a c h o f th e C o n s ti t u ti o n , t h e w h it e p a p e r, th e
r e l e v a n t l e g is la t io n a n d p l a i n g o o d g o v e r n m e n t i n te ll ig e n c e f u n c t io n i n g .
I w i ll n o t a s k f o r y o u r o p i n i o n a s to w h e t h e r i t b r e a c h e s t h e l a w
but would you agree that it is in breach of plain good government
in t e l li g e n c e f u n c t i o n i n g ?
M R Y : D e fi n it e ly.
10

A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

I t h e n M r Y w o u l d l ik e to a d d r e s s w i t h y o u

t h e q u e s t io n o f th e p r o t e c ti o n s e r v i c e s t h a t w e r e p r o v id e d t o Ms M y e n i.
A n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e , I w o u l d li k e t o g o b a c k t o y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d p ic k
it u p a t p a g e 1 2 .
M R Y : O k a y.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y, i n fa c t p a g e 11 a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 .
M R Y : A lr i g h t .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u t e ll u s i f M s M y e n i w a n te d s e c u r i ty
p r o t e c t io n ?

W h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p r o p e r p r o c e s s t o h a v e

f o ll o w e d ?
20

M R Y: T h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s w o u l d h a v e b e e n w e h a v e a fu n c t i o n w i th in
t h e A g e n c y c a l le d S e c u r i ty A d v is i n g . Yo u w o u ld h a v e a s e c u r i ty a d v i s o r
a l lo c a t e d t o a g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t o r s t a t e - o w n e d e n ti ty a n d a n y
r e q u e s t h i g h l i g h t in g f o r i n s t a n c e th a t M s M y e n i th o u g h t h e r l i fe w a s i n
d a n g e r c o u l d h a v e b e e n c h a n n e ll e d v ia t h e a d v is o r a n d t h e S o u th
A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e s .

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T h e S S A s m a n d a t e is in t h e a r e a o f c o u n t e r i n t e l li g e n c e s o o b v io u s ly
o n e w o u l d h a v e in t e r n a ll y d o n e a n a s s e s s m e n t t o s a y f o r a r g u m e n t
s a k e i f th e r e w e r e c e r ta in c r i m in a l s y n d ic a te s th a t w e r e b e i n g t a r g e t e d
f o r n e u t r a li s a t io n b y t h e c h a ir p e r s o n a n d th e y w e r e u n h a p p y w i th u s .
A n d w e p ic k e d u p i n f o r m a ti o n l ik e t h a t w e w o u l d c o m p il e a n d
a s s e s s m e n t p r o v id e i t t o t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o li c e S e r v ic e w h o w o u l d
c o m b in e i t w i t h t h e ir m a n d a t e to d e te r m in e is t h e t h r e a t o f s u c h a
n a t u r e th a t s h e w o u ld n e e d to h a v e V I P p r o te c t i o n .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e w a s a n y s u c h
10

process undertaken?
MR Y: No, it was not.
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C h a ir, I i n te n d t o m o v e o n to a s li g h tly

d i ff e r e n t t o p ic a n d t o d e a l w i t h th e a ffi d a v i t o f M r M u n t s a m i w h o w a s
in v o lv e d i n s e c u r i ty a t S o u t h A fr ic a n A i r w a y s i ts e l f .

I t m ig h t b e a n

a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e to a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y a n d p ic k t h a t u p i n t h e m o r n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , t h a t is f i n e . A r e th e r e - is t h e r e a n y r e q u e s t
t h a t w e s t a r t e a r li e r o r w e s h o u l d b e fi n e , w e a r e s t a r ti n g n o r m a l t i m e ?
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA :

C h a ir, I t h i n k w e s h o u l d b e f i n e s t a r ti n g

n o r m a l ti m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o r m a l ti m e .
A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I d o n o t a n ti c i p a te t h a t Mr Y ’s e v i d e n c e w i ll
t o o m u c h lo n g e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. N o , t h a t is fi n e . T h i s is th e l a s t w e e k o f t h e

a v i a ti o n w e e k s ? T h a t lo o k e d v e r y f a r a t s o m e s t a g e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e a r e w a i t in g f o r i t w i t h g r e a t a n tic i p a t io n

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19 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 215
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d

t o m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t n o r m a l t i m e . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 0 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0

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