C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 19 JUNE 2019 D AY 11 5 20 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 PROCEEDINGS ON 19 JUNE 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r b e f o r e w e c o n t in u e w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s N h a n ts i I w o u ld li k e i f I m a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t j u s t s a y th a t w e w e r e s u p p o s e d to s ta r t a t t e n 10 b u t b e c a u s e u r g e n t m a t t e r s t h a t n e e d e d to b e d e a l t w i t h r e l a ti n g t o t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o d o s o t h a t is w h y w e a r e s t a r ti n g n o w. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir b e f o r e w e c o n t in u e w i th M s N h a n t s i ’s e v i d e n c e I w o u l d li k e t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d c e r ta i n f a c t s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e endeavours to c o m m u n ic a t e with i m p l ic a t e d persons that were u n d e r t a k e n y e s te r d a y a f te r y o u r d ir e c ti o n t h a t t h o s e s t e p s s h o u ld b e taken. 20 C h a ir t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f ta k i n g s o m e o f t h o s e s t e p s is th a t c o n ta c t w a s s o u g h t to b e m a d e w i t h M r M n g a d i w h o w a s i m p l ic a t e d i n M s N h a ts i ’s e v id e n c e a n d w a s t o b e i m p lic a t e d in M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e . T h o s e e ff o r ts w e r e m a d e a n d n o te le p h o n ic c o m m u n ic a ti o n s – s p o k e n c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s s u c c e s s f u l w i t h M r M n g a d i . B u t t h e r e w a s c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e c e iv e d fr o m h i m t h is m o r n i n g t o o u r i n v e s t ig a t o r s w h o h a d m a d e t h e e ff o r ts y e s t e r d a y t o c o n t a c t h i m . O u r m o v e i n t o w h a t t h a t Page 2 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c o m m u n ic a ti o n i n d i c a t e s i n a m o m e n t b u t ju s t to r e c a p t h e p o s i t io n w e w e r e i n y e s t e r d a y. Ye s t e r d a y ’s p o s i ti o n a s I r e la y e d i t t o y o u C h a i r w a s t h a t a t l e a s t i n r e l a t i o n t o M s N h a n t s i ’s e v id e n c e t h e r e h a d b e e n R u le 3 .3 N o ti c e s s e n t t o i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s i n c l u d i n g M r M n g a d i . The c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t w a s r e c e iv e d f r o m h i m t h i s m o r n i n g in d i c a t e s t h a t o n h is s i d e h e d i s p u t e s h a v i n g r e c e i v e d a n y o f th a t n o t i fic a t io n p r i o r t o M s N h a n ts i ’s e v i d e n c e . C h a ir t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f th a t is th e n e e d f o r f u r th e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n p a r t ic u l a r ly o n o u r s id e t o u n d e r s ta n d p r e c is e ly w h a t d i d h a p p e n w h e n . B u t i n th e c o n s e q u e n c e – i n a c o n s e q u e n c e i n 10 w h ic h t h e r e is c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m M r M n g a d i i n w h ic h h e d is p u te s h a v i n g r e c e i v e d a n y n o ti f ic a ti o n p r i o r to t h e e v i d e n c e a t a l l. I t is o u r p r o p o s a l t h a t w e ta k e s te p s t o u n c o v e r w h a t th e f a c t u a l s t a t e o f a ff a i r s is a n d t a k e a l l s t e p s n e c e s s a r y t o e n s u r e t h a t M r M n g a d i r e c e i v e s c o p i e s o f t h e r e l e v a n t s t a te m e n ts a n d a ffi d a v it s a n d i n p a r tic u l a r i n r e l a ti o n t o M r M a h la n g u t h a t w e s ta n d d o w n h is e v i d e n c e u n t il w e c a n r e p o r t b a c k to y o u o n th e s t a t u s t h a t h a s b e e n e s t a b li s h e d in r e la t io n t o Mr Mngadi. CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a t is f i n e . L e t u s p r o c e e d o n th a t b a s is . Th e c o m m i s s io n w i ll c o n t in u e t o d o w h a t i t c a n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i m p l ic a t e d 20 p e r s o n s a r e n o t if i e d a n d t h a t t h e y g e t R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e s b u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t w h e n w e h a v e d o n e a l l t h a t i s r e a s o n a b ly r e q u ir e d a n d w e s t il l c a n n o t – a n d s o m e b o d y s ti ll d is p u te s h a v i n g r e c e iv e d n o ti fi c a t io n t h a t w e w il l n e v e r p r o c e e d . T h e r e w i ll b e c i r c u ms t a n c e s w h e r e if I a m s a ti s f i e d th a t a ll th a t w e a r e r e q u ir e d to d o h a s b e e n d o n e I m a y g iv e t h e g o a h e a d t h a t w e p r o c e e d b u t i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c a s e I t h in k i t is in Page 3 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 o r d e r t h a t w e d e fe r M r M a h la n g u ’s e v id e n c e u n t il w e k n o w e x a c tly w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d o r u n ti l fu r t h e r a t t e m p ts h a v e b e e n m a d e t o g i v e – t o e n s u r e th a t Mr M n g a d i h a s r e c e iv e d n o tic e . I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t a l l a lo n g t h e c o m m i s s i o n w a s u n d e r t h e – a t l e a s t t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s w e r e u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n th a t h e h a d r e c e i v e d a R u l e 3 .3 N o t ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: B u t h e h a s n o w in d i c a t e d t h a t h e h a s n o t a n d i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o e s t a b l is h w h a t th e p o s i ti o n i s . S o th a t w il l b e in o r d e r. S o M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e w i ll b e d e fe r r e d u n til y o u r e v e r t . T h a n k y o u . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e b te d t o y o u C h a ir. Then just in t e r m s o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s o u r p r o p o s a l is t o c o n c lu d e th e e v i d e n c e o f M s N h a n ts i a n d t h e n t o m o v e t o th e n e x t i n v e s t ig a ti o n a r e a a c tu a l ly C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n t h e f o r t u n a t e p o s i t io n t h a t w e h a d a n t ic i p a te d w i t h s o m e o p ti m i s m I e x p e c t t h a t w e w o u l d b e a b le t o g e t there today in any event. W e h a v e r u n l o n g e r w i th s o m e o f th e w i t n e s s e s b u t w e w i ll j u s t – o u r p r o p o s a l is t o j u s t m o v e s e a m le s s l y in t o t h a t a r e a o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n w i th t h e t w o w i tn e s s e s w h o w il l s ta r t o ff the second focus area. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n o r d e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir i f w e m a y th e n c o m m e n c e w i t h t h e f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s f o r M s N h a n ts i? M s N h a n ts i o v e r n i g h t y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o tr y a n d fi n d t h e l e tt e r s t h a t y o u h a d r e f e r r e d t o w h e r e y o u h a d f o l lo w e d u p w it h B N P a b o u t t h e F S P l i c e n c e . Yo u h a n d e d th o s e t o m e t h is m o r n in g , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? Page 4 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u ld l ik e t o t a k e a n o p p o r tu n it y to hand them up Chair if I may? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p r o v i d e y o u w i t h a c o p y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i a n d t h e n w e w i ll g o t h r o u g h t h e m . C h a ir m y p r o p o s a l is t h a t w e a d d i t a t t h e e n d o f M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d l e . I f w e w e r e t o d o s o it w o u ld c o m m e n c e w i t h t h e p a g i n a t io n 3 3 0 . 10 We c a n t a k e s t e p s o v e r t h e b r e a k t o p a g in a t e y o u r f il e a c c o r d i n g ly i f t h a t i s in o r d e r ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n o r d e r. B u t I t h i n k I h a v e j u s t p a g in a te d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u w e a r e i n d e b te d to y o u fo r t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 3 3 0 a n d 3 3 1 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n t h e r e i s a 3 3 2 . Yo u s h o u l d h a v e a t h ir d p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n 3 3 2 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M s N < ä Ø = i f y o u w ill j u s t m a k e t h o s e p a g in a ti o n n o t e s a s w e l l s o w e c a n b e li t e r a l ly o n t h e s a m e p a g e w h e n 20 w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h i t . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t a p r o b l e m C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o Ms N h a n ts i i f w e c a n ju s t s ta r t t h e r e . T h i s – y o u r e fe r r e d in y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y t o c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i th B N P C a p it a l o n I t h i n k i t w a s t h e 1 3 J u l y i n w h ic h y o u r a is e d a q u e r y a b o u t t h e ir s ta t e m e n t a t t h e ti m e t h a t t h e y h a d p r e v i o u s ly a le r t e d y o u t o th e Page 5 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s u s p e n s i o n o f th e th e ir F S P l ic e n c e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t t h i s l e tt e r t h e n c o n ta in s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s c e r t a i n ly. C h a ir y e s t e r d a y I t e s ti fi e d t h a t w h e n M s F ik e l e p i w a s d o in g t h e p r o c e s s in t e r m s o f e n g a g i n g o n t h e agreement he sent on the 6th we deal with it yesterday on the email where she wanted FSP… CHAIRPERSON: That was 6 May? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 6 J u n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f J u ly ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u ly. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 6 J u ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : J u ly o k a y. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s . S h e s e n t a n e m a i l w h e r e s h e w a n te d B N P t o c o n f ir m t h a t th e F S P l i c e n c e is in o r d e r a n d w e n e e d a c o p y a n d a ls o a c o n fir m a t i o n t h a t i t i s i n g o o d s t a n d i n g . Yo u r e c a l l C h a i r th a t y e s t e r d a y w e s a w F S P a c o p y t h a t w a s c e r ti f ie d d a te d 2 3 J u n e . W h e n w e r e c e iv e d q u e r ie s s p e c i fi c a ll y t h e le t t e r t h a t c a m e fr o m W e b b e r 20 W e n tz e l o n t h e 1 3 t h w h a t w e d is tr ib u t e d t o d a y C h a ir is th e le t t e r th a t w e w r o t e t o B N P. A l l o w m e t o r e a d i t b e c a u s e y o u j u s t c ir c u l a t e d t o d a y C h i a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : T h e le t t e r i s d a t e d 1 3 J u ly 2 0 1 6 a tt e n ti o n t o t h e C E O M r D a n i e l M a h la n g u . I t s a y s : Page 6 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 “ W e n o t e w i t h c o n c e r n y o u r l e t t e r s th a t c o n fir m s t h a t a t t h e ti m e o f S A A a p p o in t in g B N P C a p i ta l t o s o u r c e f u n d s o n it s b e h a l f y o u h a d c o m m u n i – y o u h a v e r e c e i v e d c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m F S B o f i t s i n te n ti o n t o s u s p e n d B N P ’s F S B li c e n c e . As y o u a r e a w a r e th e c r i ti c a l c r i te r i a o f R F P i n c l u d e d a F S B l i c e n c e . Th e s u b s e q u e n t c o n f in e m e n t o f s o u r c in g o f f u n d s w a s b a s e d o n B N P h a v i n g s u c c e s s f u ll y m e t th e R F P criteria 10 p a r ti c u l a r holding a FSB l ic e n c e . F u r th e r m o r e S o u t h A f r i c a n L a w r e q u ir e s a f i n a n c i a l s e r v ic e s p r o v i d e r t o h o l d o n – a F S B li c e n c e i n o r d e r t o p r o v i d e a u t h o r is e d s e r v ic e s . H o ld i n g s u c h v a li d lic e n c e i s a m a te r i a l c o n d i t io n f o r t h e p r o v is i o n o f t h e f in a n c i a l s e r v ic e s t o S A A . I n t h e l e t t e r d a t e d – i n t h e l e t t e r r e c e iv e d fr o m y o u v i a e m a i l b y o u r a c ti n g C E O o n t h e 11 J u l y 2 0 1 6 y o u i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a c o m m u n i c a t io n s e n t t o S A A o n t h e 1 3 M a y 2 0 1 6 r e l a ti n g t o th e i n t e n t io n to s u s p e n d y o u r F S B lic e n c e . Pl e a s e b e a d v i s e d t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e t h a t 20 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d c o u l d y o u k i n d ly s e n d it t o u s a n d a l s o in d ic a t e t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n th a t y o u h a v e s e n t t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o . In th e l ig h t o f t h e a b o v e S A A h e r e b y g i v e s y o u a n o t ic e t o r e c t if y t h e s i tu a ti o n a n d p r o v i d e u s w it h a v a l id F S B l ic e n c e a n d c o n fir m a t io n o f g o o d s t a n d i n g fr o m F S B b y n o l a te r Page 7 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h a n W e d n e s d a y t h e 2 0 J u l y 2 0 1 6 f a il in g w h ic h y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t i n c l u d i n g th e a p p o i n t m e n t to s o u r c e f u n d s o n b e h a lf o f S A A m a y b e t e r m in a t e d . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i c a n I c la r i fy t h a t y o u d i d n o t t h e n r e c e i v e t h e c o n fi r m a ti o n t h a t a p r i o r c o m m u n i c a t io n h a d b e e n s e n t o n t h e 1 3 M a y a f t e r th is l e t te r w a s s e n t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t w e d id n o t r e c e i v e a n y c o m m u n ic a t i o n o r a n y c o n fir m a t io n a s w e h a v e r e q u e s t e d in t h e le t t e r t h a t t h e y m u s t g i v e u s th a t p r o o f t h e y m u s t e v e n t e ll u s 10 w h o d id t h e y s e n d t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n t o . So we never received it C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s y o u h a v e t h e f a c ts t h a t w a s n o t r e c e iv e d on the 13 May by SAA? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. M s N h a n ts i I w o u l d t h e n li k e t o c o n c l u d e o n s o m e a s p e c ts in r e la t io n to t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e b u t b e fo r e w e g e t t h e r e I w a n te d to j u s t b e c l e a r o n s o m e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y. O n e o f th e q u e s ti o n s w e p r o b e d w a s y o u r k n o w le d g e o f M r M n g a d i ’s a s s o c i a ti o n w i t h N e d b a n k w h ic h y o u in d ic a t e d y o u w e r e a w a r e 20 o f fr o m e a r l y e a r l y o n . W h a t I w a s n o t c l e a r o n i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r e v i d e n c e is w h e n p r e c i s e ly i n t i m e t o th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u k n o w i t M s M e y e n e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a r e t h a t Mr M n g a d i w a s a s s o c ia t e d w i th B N P C a p i ta l ? W h e n a b o u t w o u l d t h a t h a v e o c c u r r e d ? A n d ju s t t o h e lp y o u o n th e c h r o n o lo g y B N P C a p i t a l g e ts a p p o i n te d a s tr a n s a c t i o n a d v is o r o n t h e 2 0 A p r i l . Page 8 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y a r e t h e n a p p o i n te d to s o u r c e fu n d s o n th e 2 5 M a y. W h a t I a m i n t e r e s t i n t o t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u k n o w i t a l l is w h e t h e r p r i o r t o o r i n t h a t p e r io d Ms M e y e n e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n th a t M r M n g a d i w a s r e p r e s e n t in g B N P C a p i t a l ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. I r e a ll y d o n o t k n o w. I w i ll r e a l ly b e s p e c u l a ti n g a t th is p o in t in ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s o n e e m a il c o m m u n ic a ti o n h o w e v e r M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d u s w i t h . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e c a n f in d i t in y o u r fil e . W e l l c e r t a i n ly t h e s ms – t h e W h a ts a p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n s r e f e r to e n g a g e m e n t s th a t M r M n g a d i is h a v i n g w i th M s M e y e n e a r o u n d t h e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a t l e a s t a t th a t p o in t a n d a s I h a v e i t th o s e b e g in a r o u n d t h e 3 1 M a y w o u ld y o u r e g a r d it a s th e c a s e th a t Ms Meyene would have known of his involvem ent then? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I w o u ld . I t h i n k t h e e m a il t h a t y o u 20 r e fe r r i n g t o i s i t t h e o n e d a t e d t h e 8 J u n e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t i s a n e m a i l to y o u r s e l f a n d t o M s M e y e n e fr o m M r M n g a d i is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d a c t in g C E O y e s . Page 9 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e a c t in g C E O . I t i s t h e f o u r o f y o u a n d i t r e l a t e s to t h e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h a t t h a t s t a g e o r w a s c o n t r a c t e d to B N P ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w o u ld y o u b e c o m f o r ta b le w it h t h e a s s e r t io n t h a t a t le a s t a t t h o s e p e r i o d s i n ti m e e n d o f M a y a n d c o n ti n u i n g t h e r e a f te r M s M e y e n e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f h is r o l e i n B N P ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I w il l b e c o m f o r t a b l e C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d o n o t k n o w f o r a f a c t w h e th e r s h e w a s a w a r e o f t h a t p r io r t o t h a t p o i n t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d I t a k e i t t h a t w h e n t h o s e d e c is i o n s w e r e m a d e in r e l a ti o n to t h e e x te n s i o n o f s c o p e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r t o s o u r c e f u n d s a n d t h e b o a r d v o te d o n t h a t M s M e y e n e d i d n o t d e c l a r e a n y c o n f li c t o f in t e r e s t i n r e la t io n t o th a t d e c is i o n ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t r e c a l l a n y c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t t h a t M s M e y e n e d e c la r e d i n th e m e e ti n g s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . If we may then just return to the c o n c l u s i o n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e o n t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e M r N h a n ts i . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e o f y e s te r d a y y o u r e g a r d e d t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e a s a s c h e m e p e r p e tr a te d b y M s M e y e n e w i t h t h e a s s is ta n c e Mr M n g a d i to e n r ic h t h e m s e l v e s , i s t h a t a c o r r e c t Page 10 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e fl e c t io n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I t is C h a ir. I t is a c o r r e c t r e fl e c ti o n e s p e c i a l ly k n o w i n g w h a t I k n o w n o w a n d a ft e r t h e t e s ti m o n y o f M r Va n Der Merwe e s p e c i a l ly h a v in g said that he never claimed any c a n c e l la t io n f e e fr o m t h e m y e t t h e l e tt e r s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n r e c e iv i n g fr o m B N P a s w e ll t h e r e w a s o n e t h a t w a s e v e n s a y i n g t h a t t h e 5 m i lli o n U S d o ll a r s is t h e – i s t h e m o n e y t h a t t h e y w i ll fi l te r i t d o w n t o S A A b e c a u s e i t is c la i m e d b y G r is s a g A G P T Y LT D . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a l s o w e r e r e c e i v i n g s u s t a i n e d p r e s s u r e t o 10 p u s h t h r o u g h t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And you accept I take it that if it had been a p p r o v e d i t w o u ld h a v e c o s t S A A R 5 0 m ill i o n i f t h e fu n d i n g h a d n o t c o m e t o b e a r f r u i t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir w i th a l l t h e m e a n s t h a t I tr i e d t o d o b e h i n d t h e s c e n e s to m a k e s u r e t h a t i t d o e s n o t g e t a p p r o v e d . B u t i f i t d i d g o a h e a d i t w a s g o in g t o c o s t t h e c o m p a n y R 5 0 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U m … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : U m I a m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d I m e a n t to a s k y o u y e s t e r d a y. Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d a lo t o f p r e s s u r e fr o m Ms Meyne. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u ld li k e y o u t o a r ti c u l a te in a s c l e a r a m a n n e r a s y o u c a n e x a c tly w h a t i t i s t h a t s h e w a s s a y in g to y o u w h i c h y o u Page 11 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e g a r d e d a s p u t t i n g p r e s s u r e o n y o u o n d i ff e r e n t o c c a s io n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. O n d i ff e r e n t o c c a s i o n s a s I h a v e h i g h l ig h te d y e s t e r d a y t h a t e a r li e r in – a f t e r I jo in e d S A A s h e s a id s h e d o e s n o t w r i t e a n y t h i n g d o w n . I w o u l d r e c e iv e c a ll s C h a ir a m i n i m u m o f t h r e e a d a y fr o m t h e c h a i r p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d . O n e t h i n g t h a t w a s c o n s i s te n t in h e r m e s s a g e s is t h e p a c e th a t I a m m o v in g i t i s a s i f it i s b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l a n d i t is n o t b u s in e s s a s u s u a l w e n e e d to m o v e w e a r e d e l a y in g t h in g s , w h y a r e w e t a k i n g u n n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n ts to th e b o a r d , w h y a m I – t h e b o a r d h a s g iv e n u s a p p r o v a l t o g o a h e a d w i th t h e 10 tr a n s a c ti o n y e t I w a n t t o k e e p o n s e n d in g b a c k th e d o c u m e n t s t o t h e b o a r d . S o a l l t h e ti m e th e p r e s s u r e w a s m o r e o n w h a t a r e y o u w a i ti n g f o r a p p r o v e . C e r t a i n th i n g s a r e u n d e r y o u r d e l e g a ti o n a n d a c t in g C O ’s a r e d e le g a ti o n s o w e m u s t a p p r o v e . S p e c i f ic a ll y o n t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e C h a ir e s p e c i a l ly w h e n I s e n d t h e te r m s h e e t a n d I i n c lu d e d t h e n o n b i n d i n g t h a t is w h e r e th e p r e s s u r e w a s t h e n m o u n ti n g t o s a y s h e e v e n a ls o s a i d I w a s a p p o in t e d a n d th e y th o u g h t I w o u l d b e i n t h e t e a m t h a t is t u r n i n g a r o u n d t h e c o m p a n y i t l o o k s l ik e I d o n o t a p p r e c i a t e th e p r e s s u r e t h a t th e y a r e i n a s th e b o a r d i n t e r m s o f g e t ti n g t h e fu n d i n g . M y p a c e i s v e r y s l o w. I t r e a t t h e b u s i n e s s a s i f it i s b u s i n e s s a s u s u a l. 20 T h e r e is n o n e e d f o r m e t o b e – t o b e i n c l u d i n g c e r t a in c l a u s e s th a t d o n o t h a v e a n y th in g to d o w i t h t h e f u n d e r s . S o o n e p r e s s u r e w a s ta k e o u t t h e n o n - b i n d i n g b e c a u s e th e f u n d e r s n o w h a v e g o t t h e p e r c e p ti o n t h a t S A A d o e s n o t n e e d m o n e y. So the pressure where along those li n e s C h a i r a ls o a ll o w m e p e r h a p s b e c a u s e it is o n e o f m y e v i d e n c e w h e r e s h e w i ll r e q u e s t c e r t a i n t h i n g s C h a i r. F o r a n e x a m p l e t h e r e w a s Page 12 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a n e v e n t w h e r e s h e s a i d t o m e s h e t h o u g h t I w a s c o mi n g fr o m r u r a l a r e a s w h ic h I a g r e e d b e c a u s e I a m C h a ir c o m i n g f r o m r u r a l a r e a s . S h e s a i d b u t u n d e r m y le a d e r s h i p S A A P r o c u r e m e n t s p e n d is s ti ll 2 % o f t h e 2 4 b i ll io n . S o I th e n e n d e a v o u r e d to g e t t h e in f o r m a t io n f o r h e r t o s a y C h a ir i f y o u lo o k a t t h e t o ta l e x p e n d i tu r e o f S A A w h ic h a t th e ti m e w a s 2 4 b il li o n a t t h e b i g g e s t 6 0 % o f t h a t e x p e n d i tu r e C h a i r w a s m a d e u p o f je t f u e l , o f s a l a r i e s , o f l e a s e r e n t a l s b e c a u s e S A A o n l y o w n e d 9 a ir c r a f t s b u t h a d a f le e t o f 6 6 s o th e r e s t i s le a s e r e n ta ls w h e r e y o u p a y in d o ll a r s . T h e o th e r o n e w a s t h e m a i n t e n a n c e r e s e r v e s . S o I t h e n s a i d 10 a s m u c h a s y o u c a n g iv e th e b l a c k p la y e r s t h e jo b b u t i f y o u d o n o t p l a y in t o t h is b i g f iv e o f th e b i g tic k e t it e m s i t w i ll n o t r e a ll y m a k e a m a r k a n d I d o n o t b e li e v e t h a t t h e r e i s a b l a c k p l a y e r f o r e x a m p l e I d i d s a y w e h a v e n o t t e s t e d th e m a r k e t b u t w h o w i ll b u y t h e a ir c r a f t f o r a n e x a m p l e ? S h e t h e n f o l lo w in g m e e ti n g s h e g a v e m e f o r a n e x a m p le t w o n a m e s o f t h e – o f t h e c o m p a n i e s a n d th e n s h e s a id n o w t h a t y o u s a i d b l a c k p e o p le d o n o t h a v e m o n e y t o b u y a ir c r a f t s d o y o u t h i n k b l a c k p e o p l e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y t o e v e n i n s u r e t h e a ir c r a f ts ? I s a id I c a n lo o k i n to t h a t C h a ir b e c a u s e i n s u r in g o f t h e a ir c r a f ts a ls o – is li n k e d w i t h t h e le a s e r e n t a l s b e c a u s e n o r m a l ly t h e r e i s a c l a u s e o n t h e l e a s e 20 r e n t a ls th a t w il l d ic ta t e w h o c a n in s u r e t h e a i r c r a ft . And then myself a n d my te a m th e f l e e t c o m m i t te e l o o k e d a t t h e – w e t h e n l o o k e d a t t h e d i ff e r e n t a ir c r a f t ty p e s w i th t h e i n s u r a n c e c la u s e s a n d m o r e – a ll o f them C h a ir were s a y in g the a ir c r a f t should be insured by an in t e r n a t io n a l ly r e c o g n i s e d i n s u r a n c e c o m p a n y a n d t h a t is t h e c l a u s e t h a t i s d ic ta t e d b y t h e le s s o r s t h e m s e l v e s b e c a u s e t h e y o w n t h e Page 13 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a ir c r a f t . S o I w e n t b a c k t o h e r t o s a y C h a i r I w i ll n o t b e a b l e to d o – t o c h e c k a n d to i n c lu d e th e l o c a l in s u r e r s b e c a u s e th e y w il l b e i n b r e a c h o f th e c o n tr a c tu a l a g r e e m e n t . S h e t h e n s a i d s h e s a w i t in m y e y e – in m y e y e s th a t I w il l n o t d o it . S o I a s k e d , w h a t d o y o u m e a n C h a ir a n d t h e n s h e s a i d s h e r e l a te d a s t o r y t o s a y s h e d o e s h a v e a c h il d w h o i s a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n ta n t . S h e d o e s n o t s a y a l o t l ik e I d o b u t s h e s e e s i t i n t h e e y e i f s h e i s n o t g o in g t o d o s o m e t h i n g . S o s h e s a id s h e s a w th a t in m y e y e s w h e n s h e w a s g i v i n g m e a n in s tr u c t io n t h a t I a m n o t g o i n g t o d o i t . S o t h o s e w e r e th e ty p e o f p r e s s u r e s th a t I w a s g e t ti n g C h a ir. 10 S o m e o f t h e e x a m p l e s I h a v e i n c lu d e d t h e m i n m y s t a te m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o t h a t is f i n e th o s e t h a t y o u h a v e i n c l u d e d . N o w o f c o u r s e t h e – t h e tr u t h is t h a t t h e r e w a s a c e r t a i n d e g r e e o f u r g e n c y i n fi n a l is in g – in g e t ti n g f u n d s f o r S A A b e c a u s e a s y o u s a i d y e s t e r d a y t h e m a tu r i ty d a t e s f o r c e r ta i n l o a n s w e r e c o m in g u p s o o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ja. N o w i f s h e w e r e to s a y y e s s h e d i d p u t p r e s s u r e o n y o u b u t th e p r e s s u r e s h e p u t o n y o u w a s l e g i t i m a te b e c a u s e a s c h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d s h e n e e d e d to m a k e s u r e t h a t S A A d i d n o t fi n d it s e l f i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h o s e m a t u r i ty d a t e s a r r iv e d a n d 20 t h e r e w e r e n o f u n d s a n d d is a s t e r w o u l d th e n h a p p e n . W h a t w o u ld y o u say? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I w o u ld a g r e e a n d s a y y e s a n d n o C h a ir. M o r e b e c a u s e o n e th in g w e w e r e w o r k i n g t o g e th e r in t e r m s o f a l l o f u s k n e w th a t t h e r e a r e l o a n s t h a t a r e m a t u r i n g b u t t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t s h e w a s m o r e p u tt i n g w a s s h e w a n t e d u s n o t t o t a k e th e t h in g s t o t h e b o a r d Page 14 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a n d t h a t w a s th e b o a r d tr a n s a c ti o n . S o a l l t h e d e c is io n s n e e d e d t o b e t a k e n b y th e b o a r d s o s h e w a s t h e n p u tt i n g p r e s s u r e t h a t t h e r e is n o n e e d w e a r e b o m b a r d in g th e b o a r d w i th u n n e c e s s a r y a p p r o v a ls . s h e d i d n o t w a n t u s t o t a k e d o c u m e n ts t o t h e b o a r d C h a ir. So I am in a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e l o a n s t h a t w e r e a b o u t t o m a tu r e a n d I h a d a p p r e c ia t io n o f t h a t a s w e l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e q u e s t io n I w a s a s k i n g y o u is b e c a u s e – is t h a t it is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I k n o w i f t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t s h e p u t o n y o u w a s fo r y o u to d o s o m e t h i n g w r o n g s o m e t h i n g i ll e g a l, 10 s o m e t h i n g u n - p r o c e d u r a l , s o m e t h i n g a g a i n s t th e p o li c y o f S A A o r m a y b e i t w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly p r e s s u r e t o m a k e y o u d o w r o n g t h i n g s b u t it w a s p r e s s u r e t h a t y o u d o t h e r i g h t t h in g b u t y o u a c t m a y b e w i t h m o r e h a s te i n th e l ig h t o f th e e m e r g e n c y. S o it i s i m p o r t a n t th a t I g e t t h e p ic t u r e a s t o w h ic h p r e s s u r e y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t . W a s it t o d o s o m e t h i n g w r o n g ? To d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g a n d – a n d t o w h a t e x te n t a r e you basing what you say on what she said and to what extent you are basing what you are saying on your own impressions. T h a t is w h y I w a n t e d t o k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t s h e s a i d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So – so what do you say? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I : Ye s C h a ir I a m s a y i n g c e r t a i n p r e s s u r e w a s b a s e d o n t h e p e r fo r m a n c e b e c a u s e lo a n s w e r e m a t u r in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B u t t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t s a y s d o n o t t a k e th i n g s t o t h e b o a r d y e t t h is is a b o a r d tr a n s a c ti o n . S o b a s i c a ll y I n e e d e d – i t Page 15 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w a s b e y o n d m y m a n d a te a n d b e y o n d a c t i n g C E O ’s m a n d a te C h a i r t h a t d e c is i o n s a n d t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty a n d t h e a c c o u n t a b i li ty n e e d e d to b e t a k e n b y t h e b o a r d b e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f D O A t h i s i s th e b o a r d tr a n s a c ti o n s o n o w s h e – i n h e r w a y s h e w a s a s k in g u s t o d o il le g a l t h i n g s t h a t I f e e l i f y o u d o th e m s h e w il l a g a in c o m e b a c k t o y o u a n d s a y y o u d i d t h i n g s t h a t w e r e ill e g a l . CHAIRPERSON: And would you – would you be able to say or what w o u ld y o u s a y i f s h e w e r e to s a y I g e n u i n e ly b e l ie v e d th a t th o s e t h i n g s d i d n o t n e e d t o b e t a k e n to t h e b o a r d . I w o u l d n o t h a v e a s k e d y o u t o – 10 n o t t o ta k e t o t h e b o a r d t h in g s t h a t I k n e w s h o u l d g o t o t h e b o a r d . W h a t w o u l d y o u s a y if s h e w e r e t o c o m e h e r e a n d s a y t h a t? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I w o u l d s a y C h a ir s h e w i ll b e – b e in g n o t tr u th f u l e s p e c i a l ly th a t th e r e c e n t d e le g a ti o n o f a u th o r i ty w a s a p p r o v e d a ft e r I jo in e d S A A s o i t w a s v e r y f r e s h t o e v e r y o n e ’s m i n d i n t e r ms o f h o w m u c h is t h e a u t h o r i ty f o r C E O , f o r C F O h o w m u c h is th e d e le g a ti o n – things that you need to take to the board. So it was not an old d o c u m e n t . I t is o n th e p a c k – i t w a s a p p r o v e d w h e n I w a s t h e r e C h a ir – yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y s h e k n e w th a t s h e w a s – t h a t t h e th in g s 20 t h a t s h e w a s s a y in g y o u s h o u ld n o t ta k e t o th e b o a r d w e r e t h in g s t h a t s h o u l d b e ta k e n to t h e b o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i j u s t a f e w fo ll o w u p q u e s t io n s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e C h a ir i f I m a y. Page 16 of 196 Do you know 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w h e t h e r M s M e y e n e k n e w a b o u t t h e p r o v is io n s o f S e c ti o n 6 6 o f th e P u b l ic Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t w h ic h r e q u ir e t h e A c c o u n t in g A u t h o r i t y of any SOE to approve any borrowing by that SOE? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: P l e a s e c o m e a g a i n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e c ti o n 6 6 . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e P F M A . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S a y s b o r r o w i n g d e c i s i o n s b y a n y p u b lic e n ti ty m u s t b e d o n e b y t h e A c c o u n ti n g A u th o r i ty a n d i n t h e c a s e o f S A A t h a t is t h e b o a r d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e b o a r d is th e a c c o u n t in g a u t h o r i t y. W o u l d M s M e y e n e d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r M s M e y e n e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n o f th a t le g a l p r o v is io n ? I t is r e f e r e n c e d in th e fu n d i n g p o li c y o f S A A a m o n g s t o th e r p l a c e s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t s h e k n e w th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s i t e v e r d is c u s s e d a t t h e m e e ti n g s th a t t h e b o a r d a l w a y s w o u ld h a v e t o a p p r o v e b o r r o w i n g s ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d o n o t r e c a ll it h a v i n g d is c u s s e d b u t h a v i n g a p p r e c ia t e d th e f a c t t h a t s h e h a s b e e n t h e c h a i r o f t h e b o a r d o f S A A f o r q u i te s o m e ti m e a n d b e f o r e b e c o m i n g th e c h a ir o f th e b o a r d s h e w a s t h e b o a r d m e m b e r o f S A A I w o u ld r e a s o n a b ly a s s u m e t h a t s h e k n e w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t c e r ta i n ly o n e o f h e r d u ti e s a s a b o a r d m e m b e r. Page 17 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To k n o w o f t h e a p p lic a b l e l e g is la t io n , i s i t n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r I a g r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d m a y I a s k a ls o i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t w a s la w fu l o r n o t a t th e t i m e a b o u t th e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s in s tr u c ti o n n o t e o f 3 o f 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 . M s N h a n ts i y o u g a v e t o m e y e s t e r d a y m o r n i n g b e f o r e y o u r t e s ti m o n y a n e x tr a c t f r o m i t . O v e r n i g h t I w a s a b l e t o s o u r c e t h e f u l l n o t ic e C h a ir a n d M s N h a n ts i y o u w i ll f in d i t i n y o u r fi l e a n d i t – that is DD2 and it commences at page 324. 10 CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 - 2 - 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir th is is a n o t e t h a t a c t u a l ly c a m e u p i n t h e E s k o m e v i d e n c e in r e l a t i o n t o B r a k fo n t e i n . S o t h a t i s w h y I h a v e a n y f a m ili a r i ty w i t h i t . It is a n i n t e r e s t in g p r a c t ic e n o t e b e c a u s e i t c o m e s o u t i n A p r i l 2 0 1 6 . I t is m a d e o p e r a ti v e f r o m 1 M a y b u t y o u w i ll s e e fr o m t h e h e a d i n g w h a t i t w a s d ir e c t e d a t w a s P r e v e n ti n g a n d C o m b a t ti n g A b u s e i n S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t Sy s t e m . S o th is is N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n m i d - 2 0 1 6 d ir e c t in g a l l p u b li c 20 e n t i ti e s a n d d e p a r t m e n ts u n d e r th e P F M A a b o u t c e r t a i n c o n s tr a i n ts t h a t t h e y w e r e p l a c i n g o n t h e d e c is i o n m a k i n g t h a t B o a r d s o f S O E s f o r e x a m p l e c o u l d t a k e a n d o n e o f t h o s e c o n s tr a in ts y o u w i ll f in d a t p a g e 3 - 2 - 7 . I t is u n d e r S e c t io n 9 . T h i s w a s a ls o t h e p r o v is i o n t h a t w a s r e l e v a n t i n th e Es k o m evidence. W h a t i t r e q u ir e d is t h a t i f th e r e w a s to b e a n e x t e n s io n o f Page 18 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a n y e x i s t i n g c o n tr a c t a b o v e 1 5 p e r c e n t o f t h e v a l u e o f t h a t c o n tr a c t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e t o b e p r i o r w r i tt e n a p p r o v a l f r o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y f o r t h a t e x p a n d e d c o n tr a c t t o b e c o n c l u d e d . M s N h a n ts i w a s th e B o a r d m a d e a w a r e o f t h i s a t t h e t i m e th a t t h e y d e c id e d to e x p a n d t h e s c o p e o f B N P t o in c l u d e s o u r c in g o f f u n d s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir th is p r o p o s a l – I m e a n – t h e I n s tr u c ti o n 3 fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a s y o u r i g h t f u l ly s a y i t w a s e ff e c tiv e A p r il 2 0 – May 2016. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 M a y, y e s . 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 1 M a y. I t – i t t a lk s a b o u t a n y t h i n g a b o v e 1 5 p e r c e n t h a s t o b e ta k e n t o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y p r io r. I t w a s n o t - C h a ir t h is w a s n o t i m p l e m e n t e d a t S A A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w a s i t k n o w n t o t h e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d t h a t th is w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m n o t a w a r e C h a ir i f i t w a s k n o w n a t t h e ti m e . A l s o I t h i n k I b e c a m e a w a r e o f i t l a t e r i n t h e y e a r. I a m n o t s u r e if w e r e c e iv e d a t th e – a t th e s a m e d a t e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll i t i s a N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n s tr u c ti o n to a ll a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r s o f d e p a r t m e n ts a n d c o n s ti t u t i o n a l i n s ti t u ti o n s . 20 So y o u – y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r S A A w a s a l e r te d t o t h e e x is te n c e o f t h i s n o t ic e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a m n o t – I a m – I d o n o t k n o w C h a i r a n d a ll t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n s t h e y c o m e v i a in t e r ms o f th e p r o to c o l v ia t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d . So I am – I am not aware. w h e n s h e r e c e iv e d t h is fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. Page 19 of 196 I am not sure 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f a n y o n e r e c e iv e d it – i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Are y o u s a ti s fi e d that the e x p a n s i o n o f th e s c o p e o f B N P C a p i ta l’s c o n tr a c t w o u l d h a v e b e e n w i t h i n t h e a m b i t o f t h is p r a c tic e n o te a n d c o n s e q u e n tly o u g h t t o h a v e o b t a i n e d th e w r it t e n a u t h o r i ty a n d a p p r o v a l o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y b e f o r e it w a s c o n c l u d e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: B a s e d o n th is y e s C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i if w e c a n th e n g o b a c k – I w a s c o n c l u d i n g o n y o u r e v i d e n c e in r e l a t i o n t o th e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e . The p r e s s u r e th a t y o u – w a s e x e r te d o n y o u a n d w h ic h y o u h a v e c l a r if i e d t o t h e C h a ir a n d y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t t h e t i m e t h a t it w a s u n to w a r d t h e in s is t e n t o f t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e . M s N h a n t s i w e r e y o u a w a r e a t t h e t i m e o f y o u r o b li g a t io n s u n d e r th e Pr e v e n ti o n a n d C o m b a tt i n g o f C o r r u p t A c t iv i ti e s Ac t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o m e a g a i n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Were you aware at the ti m e that you r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e t h a t 20 y o u h a d c e r t a in o b li g a t io n s u n d e r t h e P r e v e n t io n a n d C o m b a t ti n g o f C o r r u p t A c ti v i t ie s A c t t o r e p o r t a n y k n o w le d g e o f o r s u s p ic io n th a t a c t s o f c o r r u p ti o n , f r a u d o r t h e f t w e r e t a k i n g p l a c e i n a c o m p a n y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I w a s a w a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u a r e a – i n a p o s it i o n o f a u t h o r i ty in r e la t io n to S A A ? Page 20 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y d i d y o u n o t t a k e th o s e s t e p s t h a t a r e r e q u ir e d o f y o u t o b e ta k e n u n d e r S e c ti o n 3 4 o f t h a t A c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I c o n s i d e r e d t h a t C h a i r b u t I w a s s t il l g o in g t o t a k e t h o s e s t e p s a n d i t is o n e o f th e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e I w o u l d s a y i t w a s o v e r t a k e n b y e v e n ts . W h i ls t y o u – y o u s u s p e c t th a t o n t h is – o n t h is c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e th e r e – t h e r e a r e fo u l p l a y s a n d a l l t h a t y o u th e n r e c e i v e d – w e r e c e i v e d c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m – fr o m W e b b e r W e n t z e l a n d w e h a v e – w e c o m m u n i c a t e d w it h – w i th B N P. 10 S o t h e r e w e r e l o ts o f th i n g s h a p p e n i n g C h a ir. O n e th in g t h a t kept me – kept my focus was to ensure that if BNP does not have the – t h e F S B L ic e n c e a s i t w a s a c r it ic a l c r i te r ia m y m a in c o n c e r n w a s t o s a f e g u a r d t h e a s s e ts o f th e c o m p a n y. I n e e d e d t o e n s u r e th a t I c a n c e l t h e tr a n s a c ti o n w it h B N P. S o w h il s t I w a s a w a r e o f t h e c o m b a t a n d p r e v e n t io n o f c o r r u p t a c ti v i ti e s C h a ir I w a s - I w a s m o r e f o c u s i n g o n p r o t e c ti n g th e a s s e t s o f t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o c a n c e l w i t h th e p r e s s u r e a s w e ll b e c a u s e d u r in g t h e ti m e t h a t w e g a v e B N P o n 1 3 J u ly a n d t h e 2 0 t h t h e c a l ls k e p t o n c o m i n g fr o m t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d s a y i n g w e 20 s h o u l d n o t c a n c e l w i th B N P b e c a u s e B N P w i ll s u e u s . S o in m y e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h h e r I u s e d t o a s k w h a t w o u l d b e t h e ir b a s i s t o s u e u s a n d s h e w o u l d s a y n o w e n e e d t o g iv e th e m t h e c a n c e l la t io n f e e . W e n e e d t o a p p r o v e t h i n g s . W e p r o m is e d th e m t h a t t h e y m u s t g o s o u r c e f u n d s fo r u s . T h e f u n d e r s a r e o u t t h e r e g e t ti n g m o n e y fo r u s a n d n o w w e a r e c a n c e ll i n g . Page 21 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 S o I t h e n s a i d n o C h a ir b u t t h e c r i ti c a l c r it e r i a w h e r e o th e r c o m p a n i e s w e r e d i s q u a l if i e d w a s th e F S B L i c e n c e . So yes Chair as m u c h a s t h e c o m b a t a n d t h e p r e v e n t io n o f c o r r u p t a c t iv i t ie s I k n e w a b o u t i t. I t w a s o n – n o t o n t h e to p o f m y a g e n d a . My fo c u s w a s t o e n s u r e th a t I c a n c e ll e d t h e tr a n s a c ti o n w i t h B N P s h o u l d t h e y n o t h a v e t h e F S B L ic e n c e e s p e c i a l ly a f t e r s t a r ti n g t o s u s p e c t a s w e l l t h a t B N P a s w e ll l o o k s l ik e h e i s m i s r e p r e s e n ti n g to u s b e c a u s e o n 6 J u ly t h e y g a v e u s a c o p y o f t h e F S B L ic e n c e a n d n o w t h e y a r e n o t r e s p o n d i n g t o u s . S o I a g r e e b u t th e f o c u s t o p r o t e c t t h e a s s e ts o f t h e c o m p a n y 10 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So you accept that you breached your legal o b li g a ti o n u n d e r S e c t i o n 3 4 o f th a t A c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I a c c e p t C h a ir b u t a s I h a v e h ig h l i g h t e d t h a t I w a s lo o k i n g a t t h e b i g g e r p ic t u r e in te r ms o f – o f – b e c a u s e a t t h e e n d nothing happened. I s a fe g u a r d th e a s s e ts o f t h e c o m p a n y. The c o m p a n y w a s n o t in a n y f i n a n c ia l p r e ju d ic e . I t h in k t h a t is w h a t I w a s in – i n te r e s t e d i n o r f o c u s in g o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u d i d n o t a c t in t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f S A A w h e n y o u r e c o m m e n d e d a p p r o v a l o f t h e 20 c a n c e l la t io n fe e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W e – w e d is c u s s e d t h i s C h a ir y e s t e r d a y t h a t I a c t e d in t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y b y – b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e s s u r e I r e c o m m e n d e d i t b u t I d id w o r k b e h in d t h e s c e n e s i n t e r m s o f t a lk in g t o t h e o t h e r B o a r d M e m b e r s to e n s u r e th a t t h e – t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o r th e a p p r o v a l d o e s n o t g o th r o u g h . Page 22 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 S o I a c te d w i th th e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t I h a d a t t h e ti m e . I b e li e v e th a t t o t h e b e s t o f m y a b ili t y I a c t e d in t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f th e c o m p a n y to s a v e i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i i t is – in fa ir n e s s I m u s t p u t th is to y o u fo r y o u r c o m m e n t . W h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e d o n e I w o u ld lik e t o suggest to you to protect the best interest of SAA was to prepare that s u b m is s io n o n 4 J u l y t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d t o n o t i fy t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n t h is r e q u e s t fo r a c a n c e l la t io n f e e fr o m B N P t o s e t o u t u n d e r P o in t 2 o f th a t t e m p la t e h o w i t h a d b e e n m o t iv e d a n d u n d e r P o i n t 3 o f 10 t h a t t e m p l a t e h e a d e d “ R e c o m m e n d a ti o n ” a c ti n g in t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d h a v e b e e n to r e c o m m e n d t h a t it n o t b e a p p r o v e d . A , b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o b a s is fo r i t . B , b e c a u s e i t w o u l d b e a c o s t th a t w o u ld n o t j u s ti fi a b l y b e b o r n e b y t h e c o m p a n y i n i ts precarious fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n and C, because you were s u s p i c i o u s a t t h a t s t a g e o f th e c i r c u ms t a n c e s s u r r o u n d i n g it . h ig h l y W h a t is your comment in response? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W h il s t I – w h il s t I a p p r e c ia t e t h e f a c t th a t I d i d n o t p u t t h e – t h a t I a m n o t r e c o m m e n d in g I t h i n k I a l s o c a m e t o th e C o m m is s i o n m o r e to – t o – f o r th e S o u t h 20 A fr ic a n s t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t w a s m o u n ti n g o n u s . The e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t w e w e r e w o r k i n g u n d e r a n d I a ls o s ti p u l a t e d y e s te r d a y t h a t w h i ls t w e w e r e u n d e r p r e s s u r e I d i d n o t a c t n e g li g e n tl y b y j u s t a c c e p ti n g w h a t t h e C h a ir i s s a y i n g a n d d o it . I d i d u n d e r t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s a n d a l s o i f – if th e C o m m i s s io n c a n a p p r e c ia t e th e p r e s s u r e C h a ir th a t w e a r e u n d e r a n d a t s o m e p o in t Page 23 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 I was even scared. I u n d e r s ta n d the – the fa c t that th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i s s a y i n g a p p r o v e b u t I w o u ld a ls o a p p r e c i a t e if th is C o m m i s s i o n c a n a l s o a p p r e c i a t e t h e s t e p s t h a t I d id i n t e r m s o f c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i t h t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s a n d e n s u r in g th a t e v e n tu a l ly t h e tr a n s a c ti o n d o e s n o t g o th r o u g h . S o m e o f th e th i n g s a r e d i ff ic u l t C h a i r b u t I r e a l ly w a n t to p a i n t a p ic t u r e t o s a y w e w e r e r e a l ly u n d e r a l o t o f p r e s s u r e . I f i t w a s according to me I would not have even taken the – the submission to t h e B o a r d b u t w e w e r e w o r k in g u n d e r p r e s s u r e to a p o i n t w h e r e I e v e n 10 s a i d i t y e s t e r d a y th a t th e r e w a s a p o in t I w o u l d b e s c a r e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I w a n t t o h e a r m o r e a b o u t w h a t y o u w e r e s c a r e d o f. W h a t – w h a t w e r e y o u – w h a t w e r e y o u th in k i n g w a s g o i n g to h a p p e n ? What were you scared of? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir w h e n I j o i n e d – p e r h a p s l e t m e s t a r t b y s a y in g w h e n I j o i n e d S A A I w a s v e r y e x c i t e d t o b e p a r t o f t h e t e a m t h a t w i ll t u r n a r o u n d th e c o m p a n y. I b e li e v e d t h a t I d o h a v e t h e s k i ll a n d t h e c o m p e te n c y t o – t o w o r k a t S A A b u t w h e n I w a s o n th e g r o u n d I r e a l is e d t h a t t h e w o r k i s d o a b l e b u t t h e r e a r e t h e s e p o li ti c a l t h i n g s w h e r e t h e s e u n d u e p r e s s u r e s th a t a r e c o m i n g e s p e c i a l ly fr o m t h e 20 Board. S o w h e n I jo i n e d S A A I w o u l d h e a r c e r ta i n t h i n g s . Fo r e x a m p l e th e r e w o u l d b e – th e r e w e r e c e r ta i n p e o p l e w h o w e r e s u s p e n d e d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e – s o m e t i m e s t h e y w e r e s a y in g n o to t h e d e c is i o n o r th e i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m t h e C h a ir. S o I – I d e c i d e d t h a t I w il l stand my ground but as the pressure was mounting – as I said Page 24 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 yesterday I even one day told my husband that I do not know what I got m y s e l f i n t o w h e n I j o in e d S A A . M a y b e I j o in e d S A A a t t h e w r o n g ti m e b e c a u s e t h e p r e s s u r e s a r e c o m in g le f t , r ig h t a n d c e n tr e C h a i r w h e r e y o u a r e g iv e n th is in s t r u c t i o n t o d o t h is . Yo u a r e g i v e n a n i n s tr u c t i o n t o d o t h is a n d c e r t a i n t h in g s a r e n o t l a w fu l . F o r e x a m p l e y o u w il l j u s t b e g i v e n a C V t o s a y a p p o in t th is p e r s o n i n th e p r o c u r e m e n t s p a c e a n d w h e n t h e p r o c e s s e s a r e d o n e f o r e x a m p l e i f I c a n g i v e y o u t h a t e x a m p le . W h e n – C h a ir o n e o f t h e d a y s t o l d m e t h a t t h e r e is a g u y w h o 10 – w h o s tr u g g l e s a n d d o e s n o t h a v e a j o b a n d t h is p e r s o n w h e n s h e w a s – when this person was praying he saw a vision from God that the p e r s o n w h o w il l a s s i s t y o u i n y o u r p r o b le m s i s – i s M s M y e n i . S o I s a i d o h w o w C h a ir a n d t h e n s h e t h e n s a i d p r o c u r e m e n t a r e a is in s h a m b le s . A p p o i n t t h i s – a p p o i n t th is p e r s o n i n p r o c u r e m e n t. A t t h e e n d o f t h a t d i s c u s s i o n t h a t I h a d C h a ir w i t h th e – w i t h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d I h a d a m i s s e d c a l l – I h a d a m e s s a g e a n d a ls o a C V f r o m t h is p e r s o n . S o w h i ls t w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g w i t h th e C h a ir p e r s o n I th e n a s s u m e d t h a t s h e g a v e m e h is d e t a i ls . S o th r o u g h t h e – t h e p r o c e s s - t h e r e c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s w h e n I s p o k e to t h e A c ti n g 20 C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r b e c a u s e i t w a s h is a r e a . H e k n e w a b o u t i t b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t a s k m e q u e s ti o n s . S o i t m e a n s C h a ir s p o k e t o h i m a s w e ll . S o t h e in t e r v ie w s w e r e s e t C h a i r b e c a u s e th e r e a s a – a v a c a n t – t h e r e w e r e v a c a n c i e s i n th e procurement space. T h e – t h e p e r s o n w h o c a m e i n o n t h e in t e r v i e w s h e f a il e d d is m a lly. I d i d n o t a t te n d C h a ir t h e i n t e r v ie w s b u t I w a s t o ld Page 25 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 b y th e – M r L e s te r P e t e r s t h a t h e f a i l e d d i s m a lly. W h e n I c a ll e d th e C h a ir p e r s o n t o g i v e a n u p d a te t h a t C h a i r u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h is p e r s o n f a i le d d is m a ll y. C h a i r s u m m o n e d m e to t a k e t h e – I t o ld h i m in th e a f t e r n o o n . He summoned me to go to Durban a n d ta k e a fir s t f li g h t t h e f o l lo w in g d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w f a r – h o w f a r t o c o m e a n d t a lk t o y o u a b o u t t h e – t h a t i n t e r v ie w ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And you – you did so? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d id s o C h a i r. I t o o k a fir s t f li g h t t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: W e m e t a t S i b a y a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s i n D u r b a n . A fir s t q u e s ti o n th a t s h e a s k e d m e w a s h o w a p e r s o n w i t h L L B c a n f a i l a n i n t e r v i e w. I w a s s ti ll c a s u a l a b o u t i t C h a ir th e n a n d t h e n I s a id n o – n o C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n ta n t f a i ls a n in t e r v ie w a n d t h e n s h e s a i d d o e s t h is m e a n y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to t a k e in s t r u c t i o n s o r i m p l e m e n t i n s tr u c t io n s 20 fr o m t h e B o a r d . A g a i n c a s u a l ly I s a i d C h a ir d i d t h is h a v e a B o a r d R e s o l u t i o n a n d t h e n I c o u l d s e e f r o m – fr o m h e r fa c e C h a ir t h a t I t h i n k m y a n s w e r is w r o n g a n d th e n I th e n c h a n g e d t o s a y – b e c a u s e n o w I w a s n o t f e e li n g c o m f o r ta b l e a n d I a m n o t i n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d I – I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. Page 26 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 I ju s t f e l t u n c o m f o r t a b l e a n d t h e n I t h e n s a id n o p e r h a p s C h a ir I n e e d t o g o b a c k a n d w e a r e g o i n g to l o o k i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a r e a w it h a te a m . M a y b e t h e r e a r e o t h e r v a c a n c i e s t h e r e t h a t a r e lo w e r t h a n w h a t w e i n te r v i e w e d th e g u y f o r. M a y b e t h i s p o s i t io n w a s v e r y h i g h fo r – f o r h i m a n d t h e n h e a s k e d m e a r e y o u g o i n g t o d o t h a t a n d t h e n I s a id y e s C h a ir I w i ll d o i t a n d th e n – t h a t i s h o w I g o t o u t o f i t C h a ir a n d I n e v e r i m p l e m e n t e d t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: A n d is t h a t a l l th a t y o u w e r e c a l le d t o D u r b a n t o d is c u s s w i t h h e r ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e – t h e – th e r e w e r e t h r e e i t e ms C h a ir. T h e s e c o n d o n e t h a t w e d is c u s s e d : d u r in g th e ti m e I j o in e d S A A … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Th e r e w a s a d e c is io n t h a t w a s t a k e n b y t h e B o a r d . I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t w a s c o m i n g f r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: To v e t a l l t o p 1 0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u – I a m s o r r y. Yo u d o n o t n e e d to g o – to d e a l w it h t h o s e u n l e s s … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o t h i s is … 20 CHAIRPERSON: They are examples of … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . Th is is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e s s u r e t h a t w a s p u t o n y o u . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r th is is a n o t h e r e x a m p l e . o n e o f t h e t o p ic s t h a t w e d is c u s s e d o n t h a t d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Page 27 of 196 This is 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Th e v e t ti n g p r o c e s s b y S e c u r i ty S t a t e A g e n c y w a s – w a s i n – in p r o g r e s s a t S A A . S h e t o ld m e t h a t th e r e w e r e - s o m e c a n d i d a t e s h a v e b e e n v e t te d a lr e a d y. Some have not but in my Fi n a n c e D e p a r t m e n t t h e r e is o n e p e r s o n w h o h a s f a i le d t h e v e t t in g a n d I c a n n o t h a v e a – a p e r s o n w h o h a s f a il e d th e v e t ti n g in th e f in a n c e a r e a b e c a u s e it is s e n s i t iv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n – i n w h o s e s e c t io n w a s t h a t ? I n t h e C h a i r ’s - S A A C h a ir ’s s e c t i o n o r i n y o u r s ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n m i n e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In y o u r s e c ti o n , o h . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S h e s a i d i n f i n a n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , in f in a n c e o k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d - a n d f in a n c e w a s - w a s h e a d e d b y m e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o s h e – I t h e n s a id o k a y w h a t a r e th e r e s u l t s a n d t h e n s h e d i d n o t g i v e m e t h e r e s u l ts b u t s h e s a i d t h e person who f a i le d the – th e v e t ti n g in your area is – is M s L i n d s a y O li t z k i . S o I s u g g e s t t h a t y o u g o b a c k . To m o r r o w h a v e a 20 m e e ti n g w i th L i n d s a y a n d – o ff li n e m e e t i n g – a n d y o u m u s t g iv e L i n d s a y two options. E i th e r s h e m u s t c h e c k w h e r e e ls e c a n y o u p l a c e h e r i n t h e – in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n o r y o u m u s t fi r e h e r. I t h e n r a is e d c o n c e r n s C h a ir b e c a u s e i t w i ll tr i g g e r t h e – t h e l a b o u r d is p u t e s e s p e c i a l ly i f i t w a s n o t p a r t o f – o f a n e m p lo y e e ’s c o n tr a c t . S o I a ls o t o o k th a t a n d I c a m e Page 28 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 back. I d i s c u s s e d t h a t w i th th e A c ti n g C E O a n d r a i s e d m y c o n c e r n s t o s a y w e n e e d t o h a v e a – a u n i fo r m o f d o i n g – o f d e a l i n g w i th t h e r e s u l t s th a t a r e c o m i n g fr o m S S A a n d th is is w h a t t h e C h a i r h a s s a id I m u s t d o o n m y s i d e . S o A c ti n g C E O a s w e l l a g r e e d w it h m e t o s a y le t u s w a i t u n ti l t h e e n tir e p r o c e s s i s c o n c l u d e d a n d w e w il l d is c u s s i t w i th E x c o a n d c o m e u p w it h a p o lic y o n h o w t o d o t h e – o n h o w t o h a n d l e t h e o n e s t h a t h a v e p a s s e d a n d th e o n e s t h a t h a v e f a il e d t h e v e t t in g . T h a t d a y C h a ir I g o t a c a l l fr o m C h a ir i n t h e a ft e r n o o n a s k in g 10 if I s p o k e to L i n d s a y a n d I s a i d n o I d i d n o t ta lk t o L in d s a y b u t I s p o k e t o t h e A c t in g C E b e c a u s e – a n d I – I t h e n e x p l a i n e d w h a t w e d is c u s s e d a n d w h a t w e a g r e e d a n d t h e n s h e w a s f u r i o u s t o s a y s h e g iv e s m e in s t r u c t i o n s a n d I d o n o t f o l lo w in s t r u c t i o n s . I n s te a d I g o a n d d is c u s s w i t h A c ti n g C E O . I f – i f s h e w a n t e d t o d is c u s s w i t h A c t in g C E O s h e s h o u l d h a v e d o n e s o . I s a id b u t C h a ir h e is a ls o m y d ir e c t r e p o r t a n d w e a r e a ls o p r o t e c t in g th e c o m p a n y fr o m t h e l a b o u r d i s p u t e s a n d - a n d a l l th a t . I t h e n e v e n s u g g e s t e d to h e r t o s a y m a y b e s h e n e e d s t o ta lk t o th e A c t i n g C E O a n d t h e n w e f o r m u l a t e a – a v i e w o n h o w t o t r e a t t h e s e a n d a ls o p e r h a p s c h e c k w it h t h e L e g a l 20 D e p a r t m e n t a n d e n s u r e th a t t h e c o m p a n y w o u ld b e p r o t e c t e d fr o m t h e la b o u r d i s p u t e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o t h o s e a r e t h e m a t te r s t h a t y o u – y o u d is c u s s e d a t l e a s t w h ic h r e la t e s t o … M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: J a . CHAIRPERSON: Some of the pressure … Page 29 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: That you say she put – put on you? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i j u s t t w o f o l lo w u p q u e s ti o n s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y v e tt i n g . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d t h a t o c c u r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I th in k i t o c c u r r e d b e t w e e n J u n e – I s t a n d to 10 b e c o r r e c te d . I c a n – I c a n c h e c k . I t h i n k fr o m J u n e 2 0 1 6 b u t I c a n – I can – I do not know the exact – but it was in 2016. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o i n S A A w a s v e t te d b y t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: T h e – t h e m e e ti n g t h a t w e h a d w a s a l l t h e t o p 1 0 0 E x e c u tiv e s w i ll b e v e t t e d . I h e a r d fr o m – fr o m th e p a s s a g e s t h a t s o m e d i d n o t s u b m i t t h e in f o r m a t io n a n d s o m e d i d . I a m o n e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o s u b mi t t e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u r e g a r d i t a s s tr a n g e t h a t 1 0 0 p e o p le a t S A A w e r e b e i n g v e t t e d b y th e S t a te S e c u r i ty A g e n c y ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I r e g a r d e d i t a s s tr a n g e C h a ir b e c a u s e th a t is t h e – in m y u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t is t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u d o w h e n e s p e c i a l ly t h e t o p s e c r e t s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: top secret s e c u r i ty Because the – the SS - SSA was doing the clearance. So it Page 30 of 196 is s tr a n g e because my 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 u n d e r s t a n d in g i s a t E x e c u ti v e s w e a r e a d i ff e r e n t le v e ls a n d w e w i ll b e e x p o s e d to d i ff e r e n t c o n f i d e n ti a l in f o r m a t i o n . So we would not – you w o u ld n o t t a k e t h e e n ti r e 1 0 0 … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d v e t fo r to p s e c r e t s e c u r i ty. S o m e w i ll b e v e t te d fo r t h e – th e c l e a r a n c e s t h a t a r e l o w e r t h a n th a t . S o it w a s s tr a n g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r p o s i t io n e v e r r e q u i r e y o u t o r e c e iv e t o p s e c r e t d o c u m e n ts ? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I d id n o t b e li e v e s o b u t I d i d b e c a u s e I w a s in s t r u c t e d t o d o i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I h a v e it fr o m y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u w e r e t o l d t h e b a s is o n w h ic h M s O l i tz k i h a d f a i l e d h e r s t a t e s e c u r it y v e t t in g . I f y o u g o t o p a g e 2 1 y o u r e c o r d th e r e th a t : “ M s M y e n i t o l d y o u t h a t s h e h a d fa il e d i t b e c a u s e o f d u a l c i ti z e n s h ip . ” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u r e g a r d t h e r e a s b e i n g s o m e th in g m o r e 20 b e h in d M s M y e n i’s in s t r u c t i o n to u s e a d u a l c i t iz e n s h i p i s s u e to r e m o v e M s O l i tz k i f r o m t h e Fi n a n c e D e p a r t m e n t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. W h e n – w h e n s h e g a v e m e t h is in s t r u c t i o n i t w a s w h e n I w a s s u s p e c t in g t h a t t h e r e – t h e r e a r e th in g s t h a t M s My e n i is d o in g b e c a u s e fi r s t s h e a s k e d m e t o a p p o in t s o m e b o d y in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a r e a a n d – a n d I a s s u m e d th a t s h e w a n te d Page 31 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s o m e b o d y t o b e h e r e y e s a n d e a r s in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s p a c e . Maybe n o w s h e w a n t e d – s h e h a d s o m e b o d y in m i n d t h a t s h e w a n te d t o p u t o n – o n M s O l it z k i ’s p o s it i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u r a is e t h a t a l l w i th h e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I n e v e r r a is e d i t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n j u s t t o o c l a r i fy i n g r e l a ti o n t o th e C h a ir ’s e a r l ie r q u e s ti o n . H e w a s e n g a g i n g w i t h y o u a b o u t h o w – in w h a t r e s p e c ts y o u fe l t s c a r e d a n d th e n y o u to l d u s a b o u t t h i s in c r e a s i n g p r e s s u r e a n d t h e d i ff e r e n t i n s t a n c e s o f i t. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e r e a d i n g m y m i n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I w a n te d to g o b a c k t o i t b e c a u s e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I r e a lis e d s h e t o l d m e a l o t o f t h in g s b u t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d i d n o t g e t t o th a t b u t c o n ti n u e . I t h i n k y o u k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t I w a n t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C a n y o u c la r i fy f o r u s w h a t c o n s ti t u t e d y o u r f e a r b e c a u s e th e r e s e e m e d t o b e a r a n g e o f o p ti o n s ? I t m a y h a v e 20 b e e n th a t y o u – y o u r jo b w o u ld h a v e b e e n o n th e l i n e . It may have b e e n d i ffe r e n t t y p e s o f f e a r t h a t y o u w e r e e x p e r i e n c i n g . In o n e o f y o u r answers you referenced not being in Johannesburg and fe e l i n g u n c o m f o r t a b l e . C a n y o u p l e a s e tr y a n d e n a b le u s t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h a t fe a r w a s l ik e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a i r I … Page 32 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d w h a t i t is y o u w e r e s c a r e d o f a s w e l l. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I w a s s c a r e d . W h e n I w a s in D u r b a n I w a s – I w a s s c a r e d . I w il l p u t i t b l u n tly C h a ir. I w a s s c a r e d o f m y l if e a n d I a m n o t s a y in g C h a i r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Wa s g o i n g t o d o a n y t h in g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o m e t h i n g c a m e t o m y m i n d t h a t I n e e d to b e c a r e fu l . I w a s s c a r e d o f my li f e . I w a s n e v e r s c a r e d o f – o f l o s in g m y 10 jo b C h a i r b e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I b e l ie v e d t h a t I w o r k h a r d . I a m d e d ic a t e d . M y w o r k e t h ic s t a lk fo r i ts e l f . I c a n g e t a n o th e r j o b . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n i f y o u s a y y o u c a n g e t a n o th e r j o b i t m e a n s y o u w o u l d l o s e th is o n e a n d g e t a n o t h e r o n e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. I t w a s c l e a r to m e t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o e v e n t u a l ly lo s e e s p e c ia ll y a f t e r t h e c a n c e l la t io n o f th e – o f th e B N P. I t w a s c l e a r t h a t I w a s g o in g t o l o s e i t b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t C h a i r w o u l d g i v e m e w o u l d s a y y o u a r e n o t p e r f o r m i n g 20 because you do not have KPIs. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. So when you say you are not scared of losing t h e jo b i t is b e c a u s e y o u d id n o t t h i n k t h a t y o u c o u l d l o s e y o u r j o b a t S A A b u t y o u a r e s i m p ly s a y i n g lo s i n g t h e S A A j o b w a s n o t s o m e t h i n g y o u w e r e w o r r ie d a b o u t b e c a u s e g e t t in g a n o t h e r j o b w o u l d n o t b e a p r o b le m . I s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? Page 33 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir. W h a t I a m – w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o p a i n t is I w a s d o i n g my w o r k t o t h e b e s t o f m y a b i li ty a n d w i th d e d ic a t i o n a n d – a n d a ll th a t . I t w a s n e v e r i n my fo r e fr o n t t h a t I s h o u l d p l e a s e c e r ta in p e o p le b e c a u s e I n e e d t o p r o te c t m y j o b . To c la r i fy o n – o n t h e o n e f o r – f o r - e s p e c i a l ly a f t e r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o f B N P. I k n e w a f te r w e c a n c e ll e d t h e – t h e B N P C o n tr a c t t h a t C h a ir m i g h t d o w h a t M s K w i n a n a to l d m e e a r li e r b e c a u s e M s K w in a n a u s e d t o r e l a t e th a t y o u – y o u h a v e g o t a s h e l f li f e - t h a t i s w h a t s h e u s e d t o s a y – y o u h a v e g o t a s h e l f li f e w i t h – w i th M s My e n i . 10 If you do not do c e r t a i n in s t r u c t i o n s a n d th e n s h e r e l a te d i n s t a n c e s w h e r e s h e w il l g o t o S u n n y s id e C a f é a n d d is g u is e h e r s e l f a n d w r it e w h is t le b l o w i n g e m a il s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is s h e n o w ? W h o – w h o w a s s h e – w h o is s h e t h a t w e n t to – u s e d to g o t o S u n n y s id e ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M s My e n i . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: M s M y e n i u s e d t o g o t o – t h is is t h e – w h a t w a s r e l a te d b y M s K w in a n a a n d i t w a s a ls o i n t h e a r ti c l e in 2 0 1 7 in t h e M a il & G u a r d i a n w h e r e Ms K w i n a n a s ta t e d t h is to s a y Ms M y e n i i f y o u a r e n o t – if s h e w a n t s to g e t r id o f y o u s h e - s h e s o m e t i m e s g o e s – 20 e v e n g o e s t o th e e x t e n t o f g o i n g t o th e S u n n y s id e C a f é a n d d is g u is e h e r s e l f a n d w r i t e w h is tl e b l o w i n g e m a il s a n d t h e n fr o m t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e c u s t o d i a n o f – o f w h is t le b l o w e r a t S A A w a s t h e C h i e f I n t e r n a l A u d it s h e w o u ld c o m e a n d t h e n p u t p r e s s u r e o n th e C h i e f I n te r n a l A u d it t o e i t h e r s u s p e n d y o u o r to d is m i s s y o u o r a p p o i n t – th e r e - t h e r e is s o m e – s o m e f ir m s to d o t h e w o r k . Page 34 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o i n th e e n d w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u w e r e s c a r e d o f there? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I n – i n D u r b a n I w a s s c a r e d o f m y li f e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u – y o u t h o u g h t t h a t y o u c o u l d b e k i ll e d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d o n o th e r o c c a s i o n s w h e n y o u s a y p r e s s u r e w a s p u t o n y o u a n d y o u w e r e s c a r e d w h a t w e r e y o u s c a r e d o f? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: H m . CHAIRPERSON: 10 W h a t d i d y o u t h i n k w o u l d h a p p e n a n d w h o w o u ld d o w h a t ? W h a t is i t t h a t y o u w e r e s c a r e d o f ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I w a s – o n a l l t h e o c c a s i o n s – l e t m e s a y I w a s s c a r e d o f my li f e C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A n d – a n d w i t h a l l t h e s e p r e s s u r e s a n d a l s o w i t h Mr M n g a d i a n d e v e r y o n e – p r e s s u r e c o m in g fr o m e v e r y w h e r e I w a s s c a r e d o f m y l i fe . CHAIRPERSON: A n d d i d y o u t h i n k t h a t i f y o u d i d n o t g iv e – y o u d i d n o t c a r r y o u t c e r t a i n i n s tr u c ti o n s o r y o u d id n o t d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h a t you were opposed to doing you could be harmed? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o m e a g a i n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u t h i n k t h a t i f y o u d i d n o t c a r r y o u t c e r t a i n in s t r u c t i o n s w it h w h ic h y o u d i d n o t a g r e e o r i f y o u d i d n o t d o c e r t a i n things in regard to which pressure was being put on you – you would be harmed? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s C h a ir I – I d i d . Th o s e c a m e a c r o s s m y Page 35 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 m i n d . A l s o C h a ir o n e t h i n g t h a t I h a d i n m i n d in te r ms o f – o f d e a li n g w i t h C h a ir o f th e B o a r d . W h e n I j o i n e d S A A I h e a r d a s to r y w h e r e my – m y p r e d e c e s s o r - in f a c t I th in k M s S t i m p e l ’s te s ti m o n y s a id s o t h a t t h e r e w a s a p o i n t w h e r e M r W o l f h a d a p e n a n d – a n d th e n h e r e c o r d e d M s My e n i . S o y o u t h i n k t h o s e t h i n g s t h a t t o t h e e x t e n t o f p e o p l e t h i n k in g of even recording you. S o w h a t – t h e k in d o f p e r s o n y o u a r e th a t p e o p l e n o w a r e tr y i n g t o b u il d e v i d e n c e a n d e v e n r e c o r d i n g y o u a n d a ll t h a t . I w a s s c a r e d C h a ir t h a t I c o u l d b e h a r me d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t t o c l a r if y w a s t h e r e e v e r a d ir e c t t h r e a t to y o u to h a r m y o u ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n t s i I w o u l d l ik e to g o t o th e q u e s t i o n o f M s S ti m p e l’s s u s p e n s i o n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I p r o p o s e t o d e a l w i t h i t b r i e f ly. It occurred on 5 July 2016 and the reason that you gave Ms Stimpel in h e r s u s p e n s i o n n o t ic e o n t h e d a y f o r s u s p e n d in g h e r w a s th a t s h e h a d 20 been involved in and I am quoting here: “ T h e r e m o v a l o f c o m p a n y c o n fi d e n t i a l d o c u m e n t s w i t h o u t p e r m i s s i o n fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t . ” D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : My fi r s t … Page 36 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is t h a t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r y o u w i ll f in d i t i n t h e S t i m p e l b u n d l e it ’s D D 1 B a n d i t’s a t p a g e 5 7 0 . CHAIRPERSON: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i y o u ’ll s e e t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h , y o u n o ti fy h e r t h a t s h e ’s s u s p e n d e d fr o m w o r k fo r a n in v e s t i g a t io n a n d /o r t h e o u tc o m e o f a d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g w h i c h in c l u d e s , a m o n g s t o t h e r s , t h e s ta t e d r e a s o n a t th e ti m e w a s r e m o v a l o f 10 company c o n fi d e n ti a l te n d e r documents w i th o u t p e r m is s i o n fr o m procurement, you see that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir, I d o . D id y o u ta k e t h is d e c is i o n o n y o u r o w n o r w e r e y o u i n s tr u c t e d t o ta k e it , t o s u s p e n d M s S ti m p e l? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I c o n s u l te d b e f o r e I t a k e th e d e c is io n , c o n s u l t e d w i th H R a n d a ls o t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t , b e f o r e t h e d e c i s i o n w a s t a k e n w e a s s e s s e d t h e s e r io u s n e s s o f t a k i n g t h e c o n fi d e n t ia l d o c u m e n ts th a t b e lo n g e d t o p r o c u r e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 M s N h a n ts i in y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y, y o u m a d e s o m e r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r c o n c e r n s a r o u n d c o n fi d e n t ia li t y o f procurement documents, do you recall that? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I made concerns? Yo u m a d e s o m e c o m m e n t s a b o u t t h e c o n fi d e n ti a li ty o f p r o c u r e m e n t d o c u m e n ts , d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I do. Page 37 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s in t h e c o n te x t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e w h e r e w e were probing whether you could have asked for the underlying bid s u b m is s io n s w h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d t o r e c o m m e n d the appointment of B n P a f t e r th e te n d e r, d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: I r e c a ll i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I r e c a ll i n y o u r e v id e n c e , y o u s a i d , y o u t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s a p r o v is i o n o f th e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t P o lic y t h a t s e t- o u t t h a t t h o s e d o c u m e n t s a r e c o n fi d e n t ia l a n d s o y o u c o u l d n ’ t have seen them, do you recall that? 10 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I d o . B u t w e p r o b e d it a n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u a c c e p te d t h e f a c t t h a t i f y o u h a d w a n t e d to s e e t h e m a s s o m e b o d y w h o ’d b e e n a s k e d t o r e c o m m e n d t h a t d e c is io n y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n e n t i tl e d t o s e e t h e , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I s a i d I n e v e r a s k e d f o r th e m b u t I a s s u m e d th a t th o s e w o u l d b e g i v e n to m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t a n d t h a t’s u s e f u l b e c a u s e t h e n w e d o n ’t n e e d t o g o to t h e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t P o lic y, I d i d t h a t o v e r n i g h t a n d I c e r t a i n l y c o u l d f in d n o p r o v is i o n t h a t s a i d a d e c is i o n 20 maker in SAA who is asked to make a decision on a procurement p r o c e s s c a n n o t h a v e a c c e s s to t h e b id d o c u m e n ts , s o w e a g r e e o n that? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir th a t is w h a t I w a s t o l d a t S A A t h a t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts , n o b o d y e x c e p t th e p r o c u r e m e n t c a n h a v e th e m , t h a t is w h y I w a s r e la t in g a n a r r a tiv e t h a t s a y s e v e n t h e m e m b e r s o f t h o s e Page 38 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c o m m i t t e e s , t h e y s ig n e d a c o n f i d e n ti a l i ty a g r e e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s M s N h a n t s i t h e y s ig n e d c o n fi d e n t ia li ty a g r e e m e n ts b e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f t h e p o li c y th e y m a y n o t d iv u lg e t h e c o n te n ts o f a n y b id to a n y b i d d e r, in o t h e r w o r d s , e x t e r n a l p a r ti e s t o SAA. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: E v e n t o – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g e v e n t o S A A s t a ff . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll t h a t is n o t in t h e p o lic y a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u r e g a r d e d y o u r r o l e a s t o b e r e s p o n s ib l e 10 f o r e n s u r in g p r o p e r p r o c e s s i n S A A i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s c o r r e c t . S o d i d y o u c o n s i d e r t h e p o l ic y y o u r s e l f? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I w a s a d v is e d a t th a t ti m e , I d id n ’ t r e a d th e p o li c y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o w i ll y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e p o l ic y d o e s n o t s a y, a n y w h e r e , t h a t p e o p le in a d e c i s io n m a k i n g r o le w i t h i n S A A m a y n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o th e u n d e r l y i n g b id s u b m is s io n s in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h th e y a r e a s k e d t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: 20 I t m ig h t s a y t h a t C h a ir b u t i t is a k n o w n f a c to r a t S A A t h a t t h o s e b i d d o c u m e n ts a r e v e r y c o n f id e n t i a l a n d t h e y stay at the procurement department and they don’t leave th e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w a s it t h a t u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t m o t iv a te d y o u t o s u s p e n d M s S ti m p e l o n th e 5 t h o f J u ly o n th a t b a s is ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s I w a s a d v i s e d t h a t it i s v e r y s e r io u s Page 39 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a n d i f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts c a n l e a k to t h e m e d i a o r a n y w h e r e i t h a s g o t d ir e c o n s e q u e n c e s f o r t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e t h o s e d o c u m e n ts a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o l e a v e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a t a ll . I w o u l d a ls o c l a r i f y C h a ir, t o e v e n s a y, w e h a d to f ir m u p t h e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t i n t e r m s o f e n s u r in g th a t w e l i m it t h e a c c e s s o f o t h e r s t a ff m e m b e r s e n t e r in g i n t o p r o c u r e m e n t . A f t e r M s S t i m p e l t o o k t h e d o c u m e n ts o n t h e fl o o r w it h o u t p e r m i s s io n , s o w e h a d t o n o w c u r r e n tl y, a ft e r M s S t i m p e l t o o k t h e d o c u m e n ts a t p r o c u r e m e n t w e h a d t o ti g h te n u p th e s e c u r i ty, s o n o t a ll t h e S A A e m p lo y e e s c a n e n t e r n o w i n t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t 10 d e p a r t m e n t, p e o p le t h a t a r e w o r k i n g t h e r e h a v e t o o p e n f o r y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t y o u i n s tr u c t e d h e r n o t t o a t t e n d a N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y m e e ti n g o n th e d a y b e c a u s e y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g to s h a r e th o s e d o c u m e n t s w i th N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, d i d y o u s a y t h a t t o h e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o I d id n o t s a y th a t t o h e r, I w a s in s t r u c t i n g h e r to c o m e b a c k a n d n o t a t t e n d th e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e I w a s e v e n t o ld t h a t I ’ m w it h S i la s a n d ( i n d i s t i n c t) in m y o ffi c e a n d h e is r e l a ti n g th a t s h e to o k t h e d o c u m e n ts . I wanted her to come back so t h a t w e c a n l e v e l t h e g r o u n d a n d I c a n u n d e r s t a n d fr o m h e r s i d e a s w e l l 20 w h y d i d s h e ta k e th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t s h e k n o w s th a t s h e is n o t s u p p o s e to have them. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d Ms S t i m p e l ’s e v i d e n c e is th a t s h e a s k e d f o r a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p l a i n th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h s h e t o o k t h e d o c u m e n ts o n t h e d a y, a n d y o u d i d n o t a ff o r d h e r t h a t o p p o r tu n it y. Do you accept that? Page 40 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t r e c a ll s a y in g th a t to h e r. B u t y o u d o n ’ t d is p u t e th a t y o u m i g h t h a v e ? N o I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r th a t I s a i d t h a t C h a ir. M s N h a n t s i t h e r e ’s o n e s m a ll fi n a l a s p e c t a n d t h e n my c o n c l u d i n g p r o p o s i ti o n s to p u t t o y o u . C h a ir I ’ m r e c e i v i n g n o t e s t h a t w e h a v e s u r p a s s e d t h e t e a t i m e , I w a s n ’ t o n tr a c k b e c a u s e o f o u r s l ig h t ly l a t e r s t a r t , it s h o u l d n ’ t b e m a n y m o r e m i n u t e s w i t h M s N h a n ts i , I ’ m in y o u r h a n d s , w e m a y w a n t t o c o m p l e te i t a n d t h e n t a k e the tea break. 10 CHAIRPERSON: L e t s – h o w m u c h ti m e d o y o u … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Te n m i n u t e s . A b o u t t e n m i n u t e s , o k a y l e t’s s e e i f w e c a n fi n is h a t q u a r t e r to t w e lv e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w i ll b e h e lp f u l C h a ir, t h a n k y o u , w e ’r e in d e b t e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w ill b e a n e w w i t n e s s a n d w e c a n u s e t h e t e a ti m e t o c h a n g e o v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N h a n ts i , in y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u d e a l t w i t h t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a r o u n d t h e s u s p e n s io n o f D r D a r w a ? , I w o u l d l ik e t o 20 ju s t d e a l w i th i t b r ie f ly. Yo u s u s p e n d e d h i m a fe w d a y s a ft e r y o u j o i n e d S A A i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d I t a k e i t a c o n s e q u e n c e o f y o u d o in g i t s o s h o r tl y a f t e r y o u a r r i v e d , th a t y o u d i d n ’ t a t t h e s t a g e t h a t y o u s u s p e n d e d h i m k n o w w h e t h e r t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m w e r e v a l id o r Page 41 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 not? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C o m e a g a in ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : When you suspended Dr Darwa, had you in v e s t i g a t e d w h e t h e r th e c h a r g e s a g a in s t h i m w e r e v a l i d o r n o t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a i r I d i d n ’ t i n v e s ti g a t e , in fa c t w h e n I jo in e d S A A I w a s t o l d b y t w o B o a r d m e m b e r s , M s M y e n i a n d Ms K w in a n a a lr e a d y a t th e t i m e w h e n I j o i n e d a l e g a l fi r m w a s a lr e a d y a p p o i n t e d t o d e a l w i t h a l le g a ti o n s a g a in s t D r D a r w a a n d t h e c h a r g e s w e r e d r a f t e d a lr e a d y, h ig h l e v e l , w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d w a s o n e o f t h e 10 c h a r g e s t h a t w a s l e v e ll e d a g a i n s t D r D a r w a w a s t h e y a t te n d e d r o a d s h o w s – t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s a t t e n d e d r o a d s h o w s to g e th e r w i t h th e e x e c u tiv e s o f S A A , s p e c i fic a lly w h e r e t h e y w e r e e x p la i n i n g t o b l a c k s u p p li e r s t h e p r o c e s s o f h o w to d o t e n d e r s a n d s u b m i t to S A A w i t h t h e v ie w o f 3 0 % s e t a s i d e . T h e r e w a s a r e s o l u ti o n th a t w a s t a k e n b y th e B o a r d b e f o r e I j o i n e d o f 3 0 % s e t a s i d e , m e a n i n g a l l th e t e n d e r s t h a t a r e g o i n g o u t a t S A A , t h e b i d d e r s s h o u ld p u t a s id e 3 0 % f o r w o m e n , f o r p e o p l e w i th d is a b i li ty, fo r r u r a l – b u t i t ’s f o u r c a t e g o r ie s C h a ir. S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is , w h e n t h e y c a m e b a c k fr o m a l l th e r o a d s h o w s t h e y g a v e a l is t t o D r D a r w a o f th e s u p p li e r s t h a t h e s h o u l d i n c lu d e i n t h e 20 d a t a b a s e a n d d o b u s in e s s w i th a n d D r D a r w a w a s – d id n ’t i m p l e m e n t t h o s e . S o h ig h l e v e l i t ’s o n e o f th e c h a r g e s th a t h e h a d b u t I g a v e h i m t h e s u s p e n s i o n l e t te r a n d a f te r t h e p r o c e s s e s w e r e d o n e , g a v e h i m t h e d is m i s s a l l e t t e r m o r e b e c a u s e it w a s a d ir e c t li n e , h e w a s r e p o r t i n g t o me. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M s N h a n t s i , t h a t’s a l l w e w a n te d to Page 42 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 g e t c la r i ty o n , D r D a r w a w il l b e o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s b u t y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f th e v e r a c it y o f th e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m w h e n y o u h a n d e d h i m t h e s u s p e n s i o n le t t e r ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u , M s N h a n ts i I w o u l d t h e n , i n c o n c l u s i o n s i m p ly l ik e to d r a w o u t t h e e s s e n c e a s I w i ll s u b m i t i t i s o f y o u r e v id e n c e a n d g iv e y o u a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o c o m m e n t , i t w i ll b e b r ie f I t h i n k m y n o t e i s t h a t t h e r e ’s a b o u t s e v e n s tr a n d s o f i t w h i c h a r e o f p a r t ic u l a r i m p o r ta n c e i t w i ll b e o u r s u b m is s i o n t o t h e w o r k o f t h e 10 C o m m i s s i o n s o i f I m a y d o th a t . M s N h a n t s i y o u r e v i d e n c e I s u g g e s t to y o u f o r y o u r c o m m e n t i n d i c a t e s th a t t h e r e w a s e x tr o d in a r y p r e s s u r e b r o u g h t to b e a r o n y o u t o s u p p o r t d e c is i o n s i n t h e fi n a n c i a l i n te r e s t s o f a t h ir d p a r ty, d o y o u a c c e p t th a t ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a c c e p t t h a t c h a ir. Yo u r e v id e n c e a l s o s e e m s t o i n d i c a t e t h a t there was a behind the scenes scheme between Mr Mngadi of Nedbank a n d M s My e n i t o e n r ic h t h e ms e lv e s a t t h e e x p e n s e o f S A A . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A g r e e d C h a ir. Yo u r e v i d e n c e a l s o s e e m s t o in d ic a t e t h a t M s M y e n i s h a r e d c o n f id e n ti a l c o m p a n y i n f o r m a ti o n w i t h M M n g a d i . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A g r e e d C h a ir. Th a t M s M y e n i u s e d S t a t e s e c u r i ty v e t t in g t o s e e k to r e m o v e e m p lo y e e s t h a t s h e d id n o t w a n t i n c e r ta i n p o s it i o n s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t M s M y e n i i n s tr u c te d t h a t p e r s o n s b e Page 43 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a p p o i n t e d in p o s i t io n s w i t h o u t fo u n d a t io n . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A g r e e d C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t y o u h e a r d fr o m M s K w in a n a t h a t M s M y e n i u s e d t o m a k e fa ls e w h i s tl e b l o w in g r e p o r ts a g a i n s t e m p lo y e e s t h a t s h e w a n t e d o u t o f t h e w a y. M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A g r e e d C h a ir. Ms N h a n t s i i f Mr v a n d e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e i s c o r r e c t a n d G r is s a g h a d o c c u r r e d n o c o s t s w h a ts o e v e r in th e ir w o r k o n t h e f u n d i n g o p p o r t u n i ty a t S A A d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th e e n t ir e m o t iv a ti o n 10 fr o m B n P t o b e p a i d th e c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e a m o u n t e d to a f r a u d o n S A A ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir I d o . A n d I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t y o u a c c e p t th a t y o u fa il e d to r e p o r t a c o r r u p t a c ti v i ty o r a s u s p ic io n t h a t o n e h a d ta k e n p l a c e i n r e l a ti o n t o th e c a n c e l la t io n fe e a t S A A . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s I a c c e p t it C h a ir, s a y in g i t w a s o v e r ta k e n b y e v e n ts , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, u n l e s s th e r e i f fu r th e r fr o m you. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Thank you, yes. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir i f y o u m a y a ll o w j u s t o n e s e c o n d t h e c o n c l u d i n g r e m a r k s fr o m m y s id e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b e f o r e h e c o n c lu d i n g r e m a r k t h a t y o u – o r remarks that you wish to make. Yo u s a id th a t a c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e is c o m m o n in t h is k i n d o f t r a n s a c t io n , i f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c tly in r e l a ti o n t o t h e r a i s i n g o f fu n d s , d i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y ? Page 44 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I w a s – C h a ir y e s I s a i d th e c a n c e l la t io n f e e is c o m m o n b u t I w a s n o t s p e c i fi c a ll y s a y i n g to th is k i n d o f tr a n s a c ti o n …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, w e l l I t h o u g h t t h e q u e s t i o n y o u w e r e b e in g a s k e d w a s m o r e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e r a is i n g o f fu n d s , w h e t h e r a c a n c e l la t io n fe e t o y o u k n o w l e d g e , is c o m m o n i n th e i n d u s tr y. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e is c o m m o n t o t h e in d u s tr y a n d I t a k e t h a t f r o m t h e e x p e r ie n c e t h a t I h a v e in a u d i ti n g t h is s p a c e , s o th e c l a u s e s o f p e n a l ty a n d c a n c e l la t io n f e e s a r e n o r m a l 10 b u t th e y a r e s u b s ta n ti a t e d a n d t h e y g e t q u a n ti f ie d . T h e r e a s o n w h y I a s k e d B n P f o r th e q u a n ti fi c a t io n i s – f o r e x a m p l e i f w e t a k e a n e n v ir o n m e n t o f a c o n s u l ti n g s p a c e b e f o r e y o u p r o d u c e a l e g a l o p i n i o n o r b e f o r e w e p r o d u c e a n a u d it o p i n io n t h e r e ’s a lo t o f w o r k t h a t y o u d o b e h in d th e s c e n e s , y o u r m a n h o u r s , y o u r d is b u r s e m e n ts a n d a ll t h a t . S o s h o u l d y o u c a n c e l, t h e p e r s o n t h a t h a s d o n e t h e w o r k is e n ti tl e d t o s o m e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e , s o i t w a s i n th a t c o n t e x t w h e r e I s a i d it ’s c o m m o n in t h e i n d u s tr y, h e n c e I w a s p r o b i n g B n P a n d w a n ti n g t o understand the basis of the c a n c e ll a ti o n fee because I would u n d e r s t a n d i f th e y g iv e m e t h e i n v o ic e – t h e f li g h t c o s ts , t h e m a n h o u r s 20 o f th e e x p e r t is e t h a t t h e y u s e d , t h e y t o o k o u t o f t h e o t h e r p r o je c ts t o g o a n d n e g o t ia t e t h e in v e s t m e n ts . S o i t w a s – fo r m e th e a m o u n t w a s e x o r b i t a n t b u t I u n d e r s t o o d th e p r i n c ip l e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l a s I u n d e r s t a n d c a n c e ll a ti o n – t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e t h a t B n P w a s ta lk in g a b o u t , a n d i f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is d i ffe r e n t y o u m u s t t e l l m e , a s I u n d e r s t a n d it w h a t t h e y w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t w a s Page 45 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 that if S A A c a n c e ll e d t h e i d e a o f t h e m r a is i n g fu n d s f o r SAA, and I s e e m t o t h in k t h a t t h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t e v e n b e f o r e a n y c o n tr a c t c o u l d b e c o n c l u d e d b e t w e e n th e m s e lv e s a n d S A A t h e n S A A w o u ld h a v e t o p a y a c e r ta in p e r c e n t a g e w h i c h t h e y g a v e . I f th e c a n c e l la t io n w a s d u e t o f a c to r s b e y o n d t h e ir c o n tr o l , i s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a s w e ll . o th e r w o r d s , o n e , In th e y w e r e n o t s a y i n g p a y u s fo r t h e w o r k t h a t w e h a v e a c tu a lly d o n e a n d f o r th e t i m e w e h a v e s p e n t o n t h e w o r k a n d w e w i ll g i v e y o u o u r ti m e s h e e ts , h o w m u c h ti m e w e s p e n t d o in g th is o r d o i n g t h a t i n o r d e r t o t r y a n d g e t f u n d s f o r y o u b u t th e y w e r e s i m p l y 10 s a y in g , w e d o n ’ t w a n t y o u to l o o k a t h o w m u c h w o r k w e h a v e a c t u a l ly d o n e , y o u ’l l j u s t h a v e to a c c e p t th a t w e h a v e d o n e s o m e w o r k , h o w m u c h i t t o o k u s t o d o i t is n e i th e r h e r e n o r t h e r e b u t i f y o u c a n c e l a n d it ’s b e c a u s e o f r e a s o n s b e y o n d o u r c o n tr o l a s B n P t h e n y o u m u s t p a y s u c h a n s u c h a p e r c e n ta g e . Th a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t , is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g d i ff e r e n t ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir s li g h t ly b e c a u s e w h e n I a s k e d th e m t o s u b s t a n ti a te t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , w h ic h a t t h e e n d I d i d n ’ t a g r e e w i th it , t h e y s a i d , t h e y a tt e m p t e d to g iv e a b r e a k d o w n o f - I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e r e i s i t o n th e fi le … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . 20 CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e e v e n b e f o r e y o u g o th e r e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir t h e y g a v e t h e b r e a k d o w n o f th e m a n h o u r s , t h e e x p e r i e n c e th a t th e y a r e u s i n g t o n e g o ti a te t h e f e e s , t h e y lis t e d a ls o th e fl ig h t c o s ts , t h e ir a c c o m m o d a t io n a n d o n t o p o f t h a t t h e y t h e n s a i d i n t h a t l e t te r t h a t G r is s a g A G s h o u ld S A A c a n c e l w ill c h a r g e t h e m 5 m i ll io n U S D o ll a r s . Page 46 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: S o th e s e t h r e e , t h a t ’s w h y I’ m s a y i n g s li g h t ly C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l n o r m a lly i f s o m e b o d y i s g o in g t o d o s o m e w o r k f o r y o u , n o r m a lly y o u w o u ld a g r e e t h a t t h e y w il l b e p a i d p e r h o u r o r p e r day or per month or per week or per year for doing that work and you a g r e e o n th e r a t e a n d t h a t p e r s o n w o u l d t h e n d o th e w o r k a n d th a t p e r s o n w il l n o t b e p a i d i f t h e y h a v e n o t – f o r a n h o u r t h a t t h e y d i d n o t u s e to d o y o u r w o r k o r f o r a m o n t h w h e n t h e y w e r e n o t d o in g y o u r w o r k 10 u n l e s s t h e y a r e o n l e a v e i f th e y a r e e m p lo y e d b u t i f i t ’s a n i n d e p e n d e n t c o n tr a c to r t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e p a i d i f t h e y a r e n o t d o in g t h e ir w o r k okay but you can have another arrangement. T h a t is a n a r r a n g e m e n t w h e r e th e p a y m e n t – t h e ir p a y m e n t is n o t d e p e n d a n t o n h o w m u c h w o r k t h e y h a v e p u t i n , i t i s d e p e n d a n t o n th e r e s u l t s , li k e a c o m m i s s io n t o s a y, y o u a s k e d m e t o g e t y o u 1 5 b ill i o n r a n d , i f I g e t y o u 1 5 b i ll io n r a n d y o u w il l g iv e m e 5 % o f 1 5 b il li o n r a n d . Ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h e t h e r i t h a s t a k e n m e a w e e k to g e t y o u t h e 1 5 b il li o n r a n d o r a m o n t h . I r r e s p e c t iv e o f w h e th e r I j u s t m a d e o n e c a ll a n d g o t s o m e b o d y to g iv e y o u 1 5 b il li o n r a n d y o u w il l g iv e m e 5 % o f t h a t, y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e d is ti n c ti o n ? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d o C h a ir, y e s . N o w m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t B n P w a s ta lk in g a b o u t w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t i s a l o n g t h e l in e s o f a c o m m i s s i o n t h a t – t h a t’s w h y it w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r th e m t o ta lk a b o u t a p e r c e n ta g e . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s ir. B e c a u s e i f y o u b a s e t h e p a y m e n t o n h o u r ly r a te s Page 47 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 y o u h a v e g o t to t a lk a b o u t a n h o u r l y r a te n o t a p e r c e n t a g e , y o u understand? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d o C h a ir. Ye s , s o – n o w m y q u e s t i o n is w h e th e r th is u n d e r s t a n d in g I h a v e o f h o w t h e y w a n t e d t o b e p a i d , o f c o u r s e w i t h your understanding as well. MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s i t d o e s C h a ir b e c a u s e w h e n w e d is c u s s e d h e s u c c e s s f e e r a t e i t ’s e x a c tl y t h a t , t o s a y t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s , y o u g o g e t 1 5 b i ll i o n a n d w e ’ ll p a y y o u th e s u c c e s s f e e o f 1 . 5 % , 10 h e n c e w h e n th e y i n tr o d u c e d t h i s n e w t e r m a n d t h i s n e w c la u s e o f c a n c e l la t io n f e e , w h ic h w a s n e v e r p a r t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w h e n w e g a v e t h e m t h e l e tt e r o f a w a r d , w e h a d t o t a k e i t b a c k t o t h e B o a r d b e c a u s e it ’s a n e w c l a u s e a n d i t n e e d s t o b e d e li b e r a t e d b y t h e B o a r d b e c a u s e it ’s a n a d d i t io n , b a s i c a ll y, t o w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d s o i t lo o k l ik e , a s y o u ’r e r i g h t f u l ly s a y i n g , i f t h e y m a k e a p h o n e c a l l a n d t h e n t h e y w i ll a n d w e c a n c e l b e c a u s e a ls o S A A is a p u b l ic e n ti ty th e y ’v e g o t c h a l le n g e s , w e m ig h t c a n c e l s o a t t h e b a c k o f my m in d C h a ir, i f y o u a s k m e , I a g r e e w it h y o u b u t m y q u e s t io n t h a t I h a d o r m y s u s p ic i o n , w h ic h w a s e v e n tu a l ly t h e n c o n f ir m e d t o b e c o r r e c t , m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s B n P 20 k n e w t h a t a t t h e ti m e – k n e w th a t t h e ir F S B l ic e n s e w a s c a n c e ll e d o r w a s s u s p e n d e d b y F S B a n d th e y w a n t e d t o g e t m o n e y o u t o f S A A ir r e s p e c t iv e , w h e th e r i t ’s 2 5 6 m il li o n o r w h e th e r i t’s 4 9 . 9 m il li o n b e c a u s e o n e , t h e y m is le d u s o r th e y m is r e p r e s e n t e d a n d g a v e u s s ti ll th e F S B lic e n s e y e t t h e y k n e w t h a t i t’s s u s p e n d e d b u t n o w t h e y t h e n w a n t e d a n o t h e r w a y o f g e t ti n g m o n e y o u t o f S A A b y – b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w th a t Page 48 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 F S B l ic e n s e is s u s p e n d e d a n d s h o u ld S A A k n o w t h a t th e c o n t r a c t w il l b e c a n c e ll e d a n d t h e n n o w th e y r o p e d i n a n e w c l a u s e o f th e c a n c e l la t io n fe e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t I j u s t g o b a c k t o w h a t y o u k n o w to b e th e n o r m a n d I w a n th is b e c a u s e Mr v a n d e r M e r w e w a s a s k e d w h e t h e r a c a n c e l la t io n fe e is a n o r m i n t h e s e c to r a n d m y r e c o ll e c t io n is th a t h e s a i d i t w a s n o t . S o I ’ m t r y i n g t o e s ta b lis h t h a t – s o w h e n y o u s a id a c a n c e l la t io n fe e i s a n o r m i n t h is s e c t o r d i d y o u – w e r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t a s u c c e s s – w h a t y o u c a ll a s u c c e s s o r w h a t h a s b e e n r e f e r r e d to 10 a s s u c c e s s f e e o r y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t a fe e t h a t w o u l d b e p a i d u n d e r th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t B n P w a s p u t t in g fo r w a r d ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: C h a ir I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e s u c c e s s f e e b u t I w a s th e n g e n e r a li s i n g o n t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e t o s a y i t i s t h e n o r m if y o u c a n c e l a n d y e t th e r e ’s g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s , I w a s n o t s p e c i fi c t o t h is tr a n s a c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: S o n o w t h a t I t h in k y o u h a v e a g r e e d w e h a v e t h e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t B n P w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n th e y w e r e t o l d a b o u t a c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e , w h a t is y o u r e v id e n c e is i t t h a t i t ’s a n o r m fo r t h a t k in d o f f e e t o b e c h a r g e d o r is it n o t? 20 M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: I t is n o t a n o r m ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: I t ’s n o t a n o r m C h a ir. Ye s . O k a y n o w y o u a ls o – y o u to l d m e h o w M s M y e n i w o u ld s p e a k t o y o u a b o u t t h e e m p l o y m e n t a n d d is m is s a l o f c e r t a in employees, somebody must be employed, Page 49 of 196 somebody must be 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 d is m i s s e d , y o u ta lk e d a b o u t th e d is m i s s a l in t h e c o n te x t o f th e e m p l o y e e w h o a p p a r e n t ly h a d f a il e d s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a n d s h e w a s t h e o n e w h o r a is e d th a t is s u e – M s M y e n i , w it h y o u . W a s t h a t a n is s u e t h a t y o u e x p e c t e d t o b e r a is e d w i t h y o u b y t h e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d o r w o u ld th a t b e a n is s u e t h a t y o u w o u l d e x p e c t t h e p e r s o n y o u r e p o r t e d t o , n a m e l y th e a c ti n g C E O t o r a i s e a s f a r a s y o u k n o w is t h a t a m a t t e r t h a t t h e C h a ir o f a B o a r d w o u l d r e a l ly b e i n v o lv e d in , in a n i n s ti t u ti o n s u c h a s S A A P a r a s ta t a l ? M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: 10 C h a ir t h a t ’s t h e m a t t e r t h a t I e x p e c t e d to b e r a is e d b y t h e a c ti n g C E O h e n c e I c a m e b a c k a n d d is c u s s e d i t w i t h h i m b e c a u s e th e d a y - t o - d a y r u n n i n g o f t h e b u s in e s s , t h e a c ti n g C E O i s t h e o n e w h o s e r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h a t a n d a ls o i f y o u l o o k a t th e s tr u c t u r e o f S A A t h e B o a r d g e t s in v o lv e d in a p p o in ti n g t h e C E O a n d a l s o i n r e c o m m e n d i n g o r – i n r e c o m m e n d i n g a n d a p p r o v i n g t h e C F O o n ly, a l l t h e o th e r s tr u c t u r e s b e l o w t h a t t h e B o a r d d o e s n ’ t g e t i n v o l v e d . CHAIRPERSON: r e c o m m e n d a ti o n W o u ld i t b e f a ir to s a y th a t w h e n y o u m a d e th e that you made to the Board, to approve the c a n c e l la t io n f e e i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e y o u w e r e a g a i n s t t h e a p p r o v a l o n y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d y o u w e n t t o th e e x t e n t o f c o n t a c ti n g s o m e o f th e 20 members of the Board with a view to influencing them not to approve t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n f e e , w o u l d i t b e fa ir t o s a y, y o u s o u g h t t o b a l a n c e – to s tr ik e a b a l a n c e b e tw e e n th e i n te r e s t s o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d th e i n te r e s t s o f y o u r o w n - y o u r o w n i n t e r e s ts i n te r ms o f w h a t y o u w e r e s c a r e d o f? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s C h a ir i t w o u ld b e fa ir e s p e c i a l ly i f y o u s a y t h e b a l a n c e w o u l d b e t o p r o t e c t t h e c o m p a n y a n d a ls o to p r o te c t m y Page 50 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w e ll - b e i n g , w e ll- b e i n g b e i n g – I w a s s c a r e d n o t to b e h a r m e d a n d a ll w h a t w e ’v e d i s c u s s e d , y e s C h a i r b u t a l s o t h e f o c u s , a s I ’v e b e e n s a y i n g is , m y w o r k e t h i c s a r e k n o w n C h a ir i n t h e i n d u s tr y a n d I’ v e a l w a y s w o r k e d t o w a r d s a c ti n g i n th e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d p r o t e c t in g t h e a s s e ts o f t h e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: W h a t d i d y o u t h in k w o u l d h a p p e n i f y o u w r o te th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s t h a t th e c a n c e ll a ti o n – t h e B o a r d s h o u ld n o t a p p r o v e t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e a n d a l l th e B o a r d m e m b e r s s a w t h a t , th a t w a s y o u r s t a n c e ? 10 MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: C h a ir I w o u l d d is c u s s t h is w i t h t h e a c t in g C E O , I th i n k e v e n t u a ll y w e a g r e e d t h a t, le t ’s j u s t p u t it t h e r e a n d t h e n engage them behind the scenes. CHAIRPERSON: it in w r i t in g D i d y o u n o t w a n t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o k n o w – t o s e e that you were saying th e Board should not a p p r o v e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s I d i d n ’ t w a n t h e r to s e e t h a t a n d a l s o I d i d n ’ t – I w a s n o t c o m f o r t a b le a n d I d i d n ’ t w a n t h e r t o e v e n k n o w t h a t b e h in d t h e s c e n e s I ’ m t a lk i n g t o th e o th e r B o a r d m e m b e r s , r o p i n g t h a t they must not approve it. 20 CHAIRPERSON: When you spoke to the other Board members did y o u a s k t h e m t o k e e p th e c o n v e r s a t io n b e tw e e n y o u r s e l v e s a n d e a c h o n e o f th e m o r th e u n d e r s t a n d i n g – t h e y d i d u n d e r s t a n d , t h e c o n t e x t was such, they did understand that you would not want them to tell the C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t y o u h a d s a id t o th e m ? MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: I d id n ’ t a s k t h e m C h a ir, I a s s u m e d t h a t t h e Page 51 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c o n te n t is u n d e r s t o o d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b e c a u s e y o u d id s a y w h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d s a i d t o y o u a n d y o u d id s a y w h a t y o u r v ie w w a s . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a l r i g h t a n y th i n g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. N o t h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u , I th i n k th e r e is c o u n s e l f o r, I d o n ’ t k n o w w h o t h a t w a n ts t o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: 10 M a y b e C h a ir b e fo r e th a t y o u f o r g o t t o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I f o r g o t y o u w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e t h i n g y e s . MS PHUMEZA NHANTSI: Ye s p l e a s e C h a ir. Th a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir I r e a ll y a p p r e c i a t e th is o p p o r t u n i ty t h a t w e g e t in t h i s C o m m i s s io n I a p p r e c i a t e i t m o r e e s p e c ia ll y fr o m t h e e x e c u ti v e p o i n t o f v i e w, f o r u s t o b e h e a r d o f t h e f r u s t r a t io n s th a t w e g o t h r o u g h o n a d a y - to - d a y b a s is a n d I ’d li k e t o s a y, I t h i n k y o u tr i e d t o a s k m e a q u e s t i o n y e s te r d a y a n d I a t t e m p te d t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n w h e r e y o u a s k e d i f I w a s t h e r i g h t p e r s o n , p e r h a p s , fo r t h e j o b I w o u l d w a n t t o r e - a ffi r m t h a t I s tr o n g l y b e li e v e t h a t I w a s t h e r i g h t p e r s o n fo r t h e jo b a n d – b u t I n e v e r fo r e s e e 20 t h e p r e s s u r e s t h a t w o u l d c o m e w h ic h w e r e b a s i c a ll y n o t p a r t o f y o u r d a y - to - d a y r u n n i n g o f t h e b u s i n e s s . S o w h e n I j o i n e d S A A I w a s v e r y e x c i te d t o b e i n t h e t e a m th a t w il l t u r n a r o u n d t h e c o m p a n y b u t t h e c h a l le n g e s C h a ir h a v e m a d e m e a b e t t e r p e r s o n , l e t a l o n e t h e fa c t th a t I e n d e d u p n o t h a v i n g a j o b b u t I b e li e v e t h a t I ’v e le a r n t a l o t fr o m S A A a n d a n y c o m p a n y t h a t I ’l l b e j o i n in g , I ’l l b e u s i n g a l l th e w is d o m . O n e Page 52 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I ta k e o u t is , w h e n I j o i n e d I w a s v e r y n a ïv e , t h i n k in g a l l t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s w i ll a l w a y s a c t i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n i e s , th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v in g c o m e t o g i v e y o u r e v i d e n c e , I w il l s t il l h e a r m o r e e v id e n c e a n d th e r e m a y b e e v i d e n c e t h a t w il l c o n tr a d ic t t h e e v id e n c e y o u h a v e g i v e n a n d I w il l m a k e f in d in g s t h a t I w i ll c o n s i d e r a p p r o p r i a te t o m a k e i n d u e c o u r s e b u t I d o w a n t y o u t o k n o w t h a t w e a p p r e c ia t e t h a t y o u c a m e t o g iv e evidence. 10 T h e r e h a v e b e e n o th e r s e n i o r m a n a g e r, e x e c u tiv e s fr o m P a r a s t a ta ls a n d p e o p le w h o w e r e e m p lo y e d i n h i g h p o s it i o n s in g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts w h o c a m e a n d g a v e e v id e n c e a n d s h a r e d w i th t h e C o m m is s i o n t h e e x p e r ie n c e s t h e y h a d – t h e y w e n t t h r o u g h w h e n t h e y i n s is t e d th a t t h e r ig h t t h i n g s b e d o n e a n d r e s is t e d a t t e m p ts fo r w r o n g t h i n g s t o b e d o n e a n d w e w a n t to h e a r f r o m t h e m b e c a u s e w e w a n t to k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t th e y m a y h a v e g o n e th r o u g h s o th a t w e c a n s e e a t th e e n d o f t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m is s io n w h a t w e m a y n e e d t o r e c o m m e n d s h o u ld b e p u t i n p l a c e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t p e o p le w h o in s i s t o n t h e r ig h t t h i n g s b e in g d o n e a r e p r o te c t e d a n d w il l n o t b e v ic t i m is e d in a n y w a y. 20 So do encourage others that you know may have s o m e t h i n g t h a t ’s r e le v a n t t o th e te r ms o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o c o m e fo r w a r d a n d t o s h a r e w i th t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d w i t h t h e n a ti o n w h a t th e y k n o w. I s t il l b e li e v e th e r e a r e m a n y o u t th e r e w h o k n o w a lo t that happened d e p a r t m e n ts , and past th e y and include present, s e n io r th e y p e o p le in c l u d e in government M i n i s te r s , deputy M i n is t e r s , D G ’s , C E O ’s o f P a r a s t a t a l s , C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ffi c e r s a n d Page 53 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 m a n y o t h e r s , I b e li e v e t h e r e a r e m a n y w h o a r e s t il l n o t c o m i n g fo r w a r d w h o k n o w a l o t th a t th e y s h o u l d b e c o m i n g f o r w a r d t o s h a r e w i t h th e Commission and we just need everybody to urge them to do the right t h i n g , t o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d s h a r e a l l th e in f o r m a ti o n a n d e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t t h e y h a d . S o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h b u t b e f o r e I r e le a s e y o u , I w a n t t o h e a r w h a t c o u n s e l h a s t o s a y in c a s e i t n e e d s y o u , y e s t h a n k y o u . ADV NOSANDISO SO VITI ZWEDALA: T h a n k y o u Mr C o m m is s i o n e r, w h e n I r a i s e d t h e h a n d a t t h e ti m e t h e r e is a c r i ti c a l a s p e c t o f Mr M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e w h ic h I w a s o f t h e v ie w th a t i t w o u l d e n r ic h t h e 10 C o m m i s s i o n ’s e n g a g e m e n t w i t h th is w i tn e s s i f it w a s p u t t o th is w i tn e s s b e f o r e s h e le a v e s t h e s t a n d b u t o n c o n f e r r in g w i t h h i m , h e i s h a p p y t h a t h e w i ll d e a l w i t h it i n h i s te s t i m o n y, a n d g iv e n th e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts a s w e ll w e w il l a d d r e s s i t t h e n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M s N h a n ts i , y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M S P H U M E Z A N H A N T S I: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u . W e ll i t ’s a b o u t 1 2 o ’ c l o c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: 20 I t ’s m y p l e a s u r e , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t is in d e e d C h a ir. T h e t e a b r e a k i s l ik e l u n c h b r e a k , w e ’ ll t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k u n ti l q u a r te r p a s t tw e l v e , w e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir w e n o w m o v e th e f o c u s o f th e e v i d e n c e i n t h e a v i a ti o n s tr e a m to a tr a n s a c ti o n th a t t o o k p la c e Page 54 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 b e t w e e n S o u th A f r ic a n E x p r e s s a n d th e N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . A n d w e w i ll h e a r e v i d e n c e o v e r t h e n e x t n u m b e r o f d a y s fr o m w it n e s s e s r e l a te d t o th a t f o c u s a r e a o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n . O u r f ir s t w i t n e s s is M r Ti m o t h y N g w e n y a . P r i o r to c a l li n g h i m u p C h a ir i f I m a y r e q u e s t a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s o f c e r t a in p a r ti e s w h o h a v e a n i n t e r e s t in t h e e v id e n c e p la c i n g t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s d o t h a t . U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : T h a n k Yo u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . 10 UNKNOWN COUNSEL: M r C h a ir I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f t h e M a f ik e n g A ir p o r t M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y a s c o u n s e l . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV XOLANI NOKA: T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir. M y C h a ir I X o l a n i N o k a b r i e f e d b y [ i n d is ti n c t ] A t to r n e y s I a p p e a r o n b e h a lf o f M s D l u d w a n o th e C F O w h o w il l b e i m p l ic a t e d i n th e e v i d e n c e . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 T h a n k y o u C h a ir if I m a y c a l l M r N g w e n y a t o t a k e u p a s e a t a t th e w i t n e s s ta b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u l e t h i m d o s o . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r ju s t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s M r N g w e n y a ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s c a n b e fo u n d i n E x h i b i t D D 5 i f w e m a y g iv e i t t h a t r e fe r e n c e fo r t h e r e c o r d ? CHAIRPERSON: T h e l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n t a i n i n g M r Ti m o t h y N h la n h l a Page 55 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 N g w e n y a ’s s ta t e m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s w ill b e m a r k e d E x h i b it D D 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r i f I r e q u e s t f o r t h e w i t n e s s t o be sworn in? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? MR TIMOTH Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I am Ti m o t h y Nhlanhla Ngwenya. REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o t a ll a l l M a ’ a m . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s I d o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S o h e l p m e G o d . REGISTRAR: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r N g w e n y a j u s t o r ie n t a t e y o u i n fr o n t o f y o u o n t h e t a b l e is t h e f il e c o n t a in in g y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s . I t w il l b e t o t h a t f il e t h a t I w i ll r e f e r in th e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e . A n d w h e r e r e l e v a n t i f a t a n y p o i n t y o u n e e d a s s is t a n c e w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o a d o c u m e n t y o u c a n i n d ic a te t h a t t o m e a n d I w il l a s s i s t y o u w i t h th a t . B u t m y p r o p o s a l f o r r e c e iv i n g y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y i s t o Page 56 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e a l ly t a k e y o u t h r o u g h th e a ff i d a v i t b u t a s k y o u t o a c c o u n t th e s t o r y a s a c c u r a te ly a s y o u c a n a n d w h e r e r e l e v a n t w e c a n g o i n t o th e d o c u m e n ts . M r N g w e n y a i f w e c a n s t a r t w i t h y o u r b a c k g r o u n d . Yo u s e t t h a t o u t i f w e g o t o p a g e 1 o f t h e f il e . Yo u w il l s e e t h e p a g in a ti o n i n t h e to p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r o f t h e p a g e s . A n d y o u t a l k i n p a r a g r a p h 1 i n p a r t ic u l a r a b o u t y o u r b a c k g r o u n d w it h in S o u th A f r i c a n E x p r e s s . Can y o u p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t th a t c o m p r is e s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I t t a lk s to m y p o s it i o n C h a ir. I a m e m p l o y e d a s t h e D iv is i o n a l M a n a g e r S e c u r i ty M a n a g e m e n t . 10 I am a c t u a ll y s o l e l y r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e s e c u r i ty a n d i n v e s ti g a t i o n f u n c ti o n w i t h i n th e e n t it y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r a is e y o u r v o ic e a li t tl e h i g h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a m a y b e b r i n g t h a t e v e n c l o s e r. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f t h a t w o u ld b e o f a s s is t a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I a m s a y i n g C h a ir I a m e m p l o y e d a s t h e D iv is i o n a l M a n a g e r S e c u r i t y M a n a g e m e n t . 20 I am r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e o v e r a ll s e c u r i t y f u n c ti o n a n d i n v e s t ig a ti o n w it h in th e e n t i ty. I a c tu a lly jo i n e d S A E x p r e s s i n 2 0 1 4 o n th e 6 J a n u a r y a s a S e c u r i ty C o m p li a n c e O ff ic e r a n d I o p e r a t e d a s t h a t u n t il A p r i l 2 0 1 5 w h e n I s t a r t e d a c ti n g a S e c u r it y S p e c ia li s t / M a n a g e r. I w a s in t h a t p o s i ti o n u n t il A p r il 2 0 1 8 w h e n I w a s a p p o in t e d D iv is i o n a l M a n a g e r S e c u r i ty M a n a g e m e n t a n d my a p p o i n t e d w a s d a t e d b a c k t o Fe b r u a r y o f Page 57 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h a t y e a r. I s ti ll r e p o r t t o t h e I C E O M r – M s S iz a M z i m e l a a n d j a th a t is b a s ic a lly i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : purposes you have Thank you Mr Ngwenya. produced an a ffi d a v i t fo r Just for record the commission. O r d in a r ily w h e n w i t n e s s e s p r e p a r e s t a t e m e n t s w e b e g i n b y a s k i n g th e m t o c o n f ir m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s b u t t h i s i s a n a ffi d a v i t a n d i n th a t c a s e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d o n e s o b y d e p o s i n g t o i t b e f o r e a c o m m is s i o n e r o f o a th s . I d o h o w e v e r u n d e r s ta n d fr o m y o u th a t t h e r e a r e o n e o r tw o c o r r e c t i o n s y o u w o u l d l ik e t o m a k e in th e a ff id a v i t a n d m y p r o p o s a l is t o d e a l w i th 10 t h e m w h e n w e g e t t o t h e m i n t h e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a a t p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u t a l k a b o u t y o u r r e p o r ti n g li n e s w it h in S A E x p r e s s c a n y o u p le a s e t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Yo u m e a n a t t h e ti m e M a ’a m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t i m e i n d e e d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. D u r i n g 2 0 1 5 a c t u a ll y p r i o r t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n I w a s r e p o r t in g t o M s M e r r i a m M o c h o e le w h o w a s t h e l e g a l w h o w a s t h e le g a l r is k a n d c o m p l i a n c e g e n e r a l m a n a g e r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r I k n o w t h a t s o m e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s h e l p w i t h t h e s p e ll i n g o f s o m e o f th e s e n a m e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To a s s i s t t h e t r a n s c r i b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t m a y b e u s e f u l. CHAIRPERSON: So that might be useful ja. Page 58 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . J u s t t o g i v e i t is M e r r i a m , M e r r ia m a n d t h e n th e s u r n a m e M o c h o e le is M o c h o e le . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : manager legal r is k and c o m p l ia n c e Ye s s h e w a s th e g e n e r a l w h ic h means th e s e c u r i ty m a n a g e m e n t f e l l u n d e r h e r w i n g a s w e l l . S h e w a s a ls o r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h a t . D u r in g th e ti m e w h e n th e i n v e s t ig a – I s t a r t e d t h is in v e s ti g a t io n in p a r ti c u l a r a r o u n d J u n e t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y w h o w a s b r o u g h t in – a p p o i n t e d a s a d iv is io n a l m a n a g e r s a f e t y a n d s e c u r i ty b y th e n a m e o f 10 M s Br e n d a M b la n e n e . I t h i n k a t t h e ti m e w h e n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ta r t e d o r w h e n I – y o u k n o w I s t a r te d t h i s i n v e s ti g a t io n I t h i n k s h e w a s a b o u t a m o n t h o l d w i th i n S A E x p r e s s h e n c e i n m o s t o f o r r a t h e r t h r o u g h o u t s h e is n o t e v e n m e n t io n e d . B e c a u s e w h e n th is w h o le t h i n g – t h is in v e s t i g a t io n w a s o r r a t h e r th e w h is t le b l o w i n g – w h e n I w a s c a l le d I d i d n o t e v e n s p e a k t o h e r b e c a u s e o f tr u th o f t h e m a t t e r is t h a t th e m a t t e r w a s n o t t o d is r e s p e c t b u t a b o v e h e r p a y g r a d e . S o I h a d b y p a s s h e r a n d g o b a c k t o Ms M o c h o e l e a n d t h e C E O . I n f a c t w h a t a c tu a l ly h a p p e n e d C h a ir th a t w a s th e 2 4 J u n e 2 0 1 6 th e a f t e r n o o n ju s t a f te r t h r e e I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m a la d y w h o c l a i m e d th a t s h e w a s fr o m t h e 20 N o r t h W e s t a n d s h e w a n t e d t o r e p o r t c o r r u p t io n a g a i n s t o n e o f th e G M ’s w i th in S A E x p r e s s w h o m a t th e ti m e s h e a l l e g e d t h a t t h i s p e r s o n w a s i n te r f e r in g w i t h h e r c o m p a n y a n d s h e w a n te d to – h e w a n t e d t o a c t u a ll y t a k e o v e r t h e c o m p a n y. A n d s h e w a s p r e p a r e d t o g o t o m e d i a in p a r ti c u la r M a i l a n d G u a r d i a n t o r e p o r t t h is . I w a s r e a lly c o n c e r n e d a n d I f e l t t h a t y o u k n o w fa c t s m a y b e m is c o n s tr u e d s o m e h o w a n d y o u Page 59 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 k n o w I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e c o m p a n y ’s r e p u t a ti o n y o u k n o w g e t ti n g t a i n te d . A n d I r e q u e s te d t h e l a d y t o g i v e m e a n o p p o r tu n i ty t o m e e t w i t h h e r s o I c a n u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t ly a s w h a t w a s t h e is s u e a ll a b o u t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a i f I m a y j u s t i n t e r j e c t t h e r e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d y o u g iv e u s c la r i ty a s t o w h o th e p e o p l e are that you are referring to? S o w h o w a s th e w o m a n w h o c o n ta c t e d y o u o n th e 2 4 J u n e 2 0 1 6 ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 10 Okay it was Ms Babadi Tl a ts a n a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o i n te r r u p t t h e r e I d o a p o l o g i s e b u t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d t h a t is B a b a d i a n d Tl a ts a n a is T la t s a n a . S o s h e c o n ta c t e d y o u a n d s h e – a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e w a n t e d t o r e p o r t c o r r u p ti o n r e la t e d t o s o m e b o d y w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s . W h o w a s th a t p e r s o n t h a t s h e i d e n ti f ie d ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : M r B r i a n Te b o g o Va n W y k w a s t h e G M C o m m e r c ia l a t S A E x p r e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h a t is Br i a n , Br ia n , Te b o g o , Te b o g o a n d Va n W y k , Va n W y k . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . I therefore pleaded with h e r n o t t o g o o n a n d I r e q u e s t e d th a t w e m e e t a n d th e m e e t in g t o o k p l a c e t h e f o l lo w in g in M a f ik e n g M a l l w h e r e y o u k n o w o n th e v e r y s a m e Fr id a y w e a g r e e d w e w o u l d m e e t b e t w e e n e i g h t a n d h a l f p a s t e i g h t . S o t h e f o l lo w in g d a y w h i c h w a s a S a t u r d a y I l e f t my h o u s e v e r y e a r ly a t a p p r o x i m a te ly fo u r o ’c lo c k a m a n d d r o v e t o t h e N o r th W e s t to m e e t w i t h Page 60 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h is l a d y. B e c a u s e o f – o n t h e d a y s h e h a d – g a v e m e h e r d e s c r i p ti o n y o u k n o w t o s a y s h e l o o k s l ik e t h i s a n d s h e w i ll b e w e a r i n g 1 2 3 . S o I w e n t t o th e N o r t h W e s t a n d I g o t t h e r e a n d I m u s t s a y t h a t I w a s p u s h i n g t o g e t t h e r e fi r s t s o I c a n id e n ti fy h e r a s y o u k n o w s h e w a lk e d in a n d i n d e e d i t h a p p e n e d lik e th a t . B e c a u s e w h e n I g o t th e r e s h e w a s n o t r e a l ly t h e r e a n d I s a w h e r th r o u g h t h e w i n d o w a s s h e w a s c o mi n g in . I s u s p e c t e d t h a t i t c o u l d b e h e r a n d w h e n s h e w a lk e d i n s h e l o o k e d a r o u n d a n d I c o u l d y o u k n o w w h e n o u r e y e s m e t w e c o u ld s e e th a t i t w a s h e r a n d t h e n s h e a p p r o a c h e d m e , i n tr o d u c e d h e r s e l f t o s a y M s 10 B a b a d i T la t s a n a th e o w n e r o r d ir e c to r o f K o r e n e k a Tr a d i n g a n d P r o je c ts a n d Tr a d i n g s o m e t h in g lik e t h a t – th a t c o m p a n y o k a y w h ic h i s th e h a n d l in g c o m p a n y fo r S A E x p r e s s . T h e n I in tr o d u c e d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s M a ’a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c o u l d ju s t in t e r r u p t th e r e s o m e t i m e s y o u w i ll h a v e a l o t o f b a c k g r o u n d k n o w le d g e t h a t w e m a y n o t h a v e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So do forgive me. But you say she was K e r e n e k a w a s th e h a n d l in g c o m p a n y. 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : F o r S A E x p r e s s c a n y o u j u s t e x p l a in t o u s w h a t that means? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y a s a n a ir li n e w h e n w e f ly t o p a r ti c u la r d e s ti n a ti o n s , a ir p o r t s y o u w o u ld h a v e a c o m p a n y d o i n g t h e g r o u n d h a n d l i n g fo r u s b e c a u s e o f w e a r e n o t d o i n g t h e g r o u n d Page 61 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 h a n d l in g w e o n l y d o i n g th e a ir s e r v ic e s , fl y in g p a s s e n g e r s a n d a l l th a t . T h e r e f o r e w e w o u l d s o u r c e o r r a th e r o u ts o u r c e t h e f u n c ti o n t o s p e c i fi c c o m p a n i e s t h a t w o u l d p r o v i d e y o u k n o w [ i n d is ti n c t ] o u r p a s s e n g e r s y o u k n o w t h e l o g is t ic s o n th e g r o u n d . S o in t h is i n s ta n c e K o r e n e k a w a s doing the checking which means they were processing passengers as t h e y w e r e c h e c k i n g i n , l o a d in g b a g g a g e y o u k n o w a n d s o f o r t h b u t th e ground services. S o t h i s K o r e n e k a w a s p r o v i d in g t h a t s e r v ic e to S A Express which means there was an agreement of some sort between SA E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a f o r th is s p e c i fi c s e r v ic e w h e r e S A E x p r e s s w a s 10 e x p e c te d o f c o u r s e t o r e m u n e r a t e K o r e n e k a f o r t h e s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d to SA Express. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a w h e r e w e r e th o s e s e r v i c e s b e i n g p r o v i d e d , t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h a t ti m e K o r e n e k a w a s p r o v i d in g t h e s e r v i c e s i n tw o a i r p o r ts . O n e w h ic h w a s Pi l a n e s b u r g a n d t h e o th e r o n e w a s M a fik e n g a ir p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B o t h l o c a t e d in t h e N o r t h W e s t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B o t h l o c a t e d i n t h e N o r th W e s t yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e h a n d li n g p a r t o f t h e b u s i n e s s r e f e r s t o th e c h e c k i n g in o f p a s s e n g e r s a n d w h a t e ls e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I t w a s th e c h e c k i n g i n , t h e b a g g a g e l o a d i n g , t h e b o a r d in g o f p a s s e n g e r s i t is a c t u a l ly a p r o c e s s . I t is a v a l u e c h a in o f s o m e s o r t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Is i t l ik e ta k i n g t h e p a s s e n g e r fr o m w h e n h e o r s h e Page 62 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c h e c k s i n u p to … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Where he and she … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : U p t o t h e – b o a r d th e a ir c r a f t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e l u g g a g e g e ts p u t i n th e p l a n e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t t h a t p r o c e s s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir, C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d a g a i n K o r e n e k a w h i c h is n o t a n o b v io u s w o r d t o s p e ll is K o r e n e k a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o Mr N g w e n y a y o u i d e n ti fy M s Tl a ts a n a o n t h a t S a t u r d a y m o r n i n g a n d s h e i n tr o d u c e s h e r s e l f a n d t h e n a s I h a v e y o u r s t a t e m e n t w e n o w a t p a g e 3 a t l e a s t y o u r a ff id a v i t a t p a g e 3 y o u t h e n g o o n to r e c o u n t w h a t M s T la ts a n a t o l d y o u i n th a t m e e t in g . A n d can you summaries for us what that was? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 20 O k a y f ir s t ly I h a d t o p r o b e h e r p e r t a in in g t h e a l le g a ti o n t h a t s h e r a i s e d t h e p r e v i o u s d a y a b o u t M r B r i a n Va n W y k . M r Tl a ts a n a t o l d m e t h a t lik e I s a i d t h a t s h e w a s t h e o w n e r – t h e s o l e o w n e r o f – s h e w a s t h e o w n e r o f K o r e n e k a Tr a d in g a n d P r o je c ts w h ic h w a s p r o v id in g t h is g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s t o S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e n s h e i n f o r m e d m e t h a t s h e h a d th e d e a li n g s w i t h S A E x p r e s s in p a r t ic u l a r M r Va n W y k b e c a u s e o f – s h e g o t th r o u g h to Page 63 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 E x p r e s s v i a Mr Va n W y k . W h a t s h e e x p l a i n e d t o m e w a s t h a t i n i ti a lly w h e n t h is w h o l e th i n g s t a r t e d a b o u t t h e p r o j e c t th e r e w a s a m e e t i n g s o m e w h e r e i n t h e N o r t h W e s t w h e r e s h e g a v e a p r o p o s a l t o r e v iv e th e a ir s e r v ic e s o r r a t h e r th e a ir p o r t s w i t h i n t h e N o r t h W e s t . Yo u k n o w th a t s h e w a s in t e r e s t e d in r e v iv i n g t h a t a n d t h e n a t t h a t t i m e I t h e r e w e r e t a lk s b e t w e e n – a c c o r d in g t o h e r C h a ir – t h e r e w e r e t a lk s b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r th W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t y o u k n o w t o h a v e a d e a l to h a v e S A E x p r e s s y o u k n o w f l o w n i n to t h e a r e a a n d a l l t h a t . A n d s h e s a id s o m e h o w s o m e b o d y r e fe r r e d h e r to M r Va n W y k to s a y 10 s h e c a n s p e a k to M r Va n W y k w h o i s t h e g e n e r a l m a n a g e r f o r S A E x p r e s s a n d I m u s t s a y a t t h e ti m e M r Va n W y k ’s d e p a r t m e n t w a s s p e a r h e a d i n g th e p r o je c t f o r – t h is p r o j e c t i n t h e N o r th W e s t . S h e s a i d t o m e s h e p r o v i d e d t h e d o c u m e n ts to M r Va n W y k w h ic h m e a n s t h a t w a s t h e c o m p a n y p r o fi le a n d t h e s t a t u t o r y d o c u m e n t y o u k n o w t o p r o v i d e t h a t s e r v i c e a s i t w a s a p r o p o s a l. T h e n M r B r i a n Va n W y k s h e s a i d t o o k t h a t s tu ff a n d l a te r o n c o n f ir m e d t o h e r t h a t s h e s t a n d s a c h a n c e o f g e t t in g y o u k n o w t h e j o b . F o r t h e s i m p le r e a s o n th a t s h e w a s a w o m a n n u m b e r 1 a n d s h e w a s fr o m th e v e r y s a m e a r e a w h ic h is N o r t h W e s t o f w h i c h t h e g o v e r n m e n t w a s a c tu a lly i n te r e s t e d i n g iv i n g lo c a l 20 p e o p l e e m p o w e r in g – e m p o w e r in g th e m i n f a c t . S o Mr Va n W y k to ld h e r t h a t t h e o n ly d is a d v a n t a g e w a s t h a t s h e w a s t h e s o l e o w n e r o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n o f th a t c o m p a n y a n d t h e r e f o r e o n t h o s e b a s is t h a t w o u l d li m i t h e r c h a n c e s o f b e i n g a w a r d e d th e w o r k . H e th e n a d v is e d h e r t o g e t s o m e b o d y y o u k n o w t o b e p a r t n e r e d w it h h e r a n d s h e s u g g e s te d a t t h e t i m e t o Mr Va n W y k t h a t s h e w o u l d p r e f e r t o h a v e h e r s i s t e r o n Page 64 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 b o a r d a s a p a r tn e r. M r Va n W y k t o l d h e r t h a t i t c a n n o t w o r k b e c a u s e it w o u ld b e s e e n a s n e p o tis m . Yo u k n o w f a m ily m e m b e r s a n d a ll t h a t . A n d M r Va n W y k s u g g e s te d t h a t h e c a n b r in g t w o in d i v i d u a ls t h a t c a n a c t u a ll y a s s i s t h e r a s s h e d i d n o t h a v e th e e x p e r i e n c e y o u k n o w p e r t a in in g t o t h e s e r v ic e th a t s h e w a n t s t o p r o v i d e . H e s a i d h e w o u ld b r i n g t w o p e o p l e t h a t c a n a c tu a l ly c r e a t e m o r e o p p o r t u n i t ie s fo r h e r g o i n g f o r w a r d a n d t h e y w o u l d a s s is t h e r w i t h t h e m a n a g e m e n t a s t h e y a r e k n o w le d g e a b l e y o u k n o w i n r e l a t i o n t o w h a t s h e w a s t o p r o v i d e – t h e s e r v ic e th a t s h e w a s t o p r o v i d e . A n d s h e a g r e e d to t h a t . A n d th e n 10 la t e r o n M r Va n W y k b r o u g h t t w o in d iv i d u a ls t o th is – t o h e r t o s a y s h e n e e d e d t o a d d th e s e p e o p l e a s p a r t o f t h e o w n e r s o f t h is o r g a n is a ti o n . S o th e n a m e s th a t Mr Va n W y k b r o u g h t I t a k e i t t h a t a l s o w i t h t h e i r id e n t i ti e s a n d e v e r y th i n g e ls e th a t n e e d e d to b e d o n e w a s a M r Vic t o r T h a b e n g w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a p a r t n e r a n d M s J o y c e P h ir i a n d h e b r o u g h t t h e t w o a n d th e y h e l d a b o u t 6 6 % , 3 3 /3 3 w h ils t s h e w a s th e m a jo r i ty s h a r e h o ld e r o f 3 4 % . S o t h a t is h o w t h e K o r e n e k a o w n e r s h i p w a s a c t u a l ly a l te r e d t h e n t h e y b e c a m e p a r t o f K o r e n e k a . S h e s a i d t h a t t h e y – t h e y p r o v i d e d s e r v i c e s o f c o u r s e b u t t h e o t h e r t h in g t h a t s h e m e n ti o n e d t o m e w a s t h a t s h e w a s n o t a c t iv e ly i n v o lv e d . 20 I may have o m i tt e d t h is i n f o r m a ti o n C h a ir o n m y a ffi d a v i t I a m t h in k i n g b e c a u s e o f – t h e r e w e r e q u i t e a l o t o f t h i n g s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g a r o u n d t h a t ti m e . S o s h e s a id s h e w a s n o t a c tiv e ly p a r t ic i p a t i n g a n d th is c o u l d b e s u p p o r t e d b y o n e o f t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s w h e r e th e y w e r e s i t ti n g I t h i n k a t th e S p u r r e s t a u r a n t w h e r e s h e m e n t io n e d t h a t I a m n o t k n o w n a s th e o w n e r o f t h is o r g a n is a ti o n y o u th e o n ly o n e M r Va n W y k t h a t is k n o w n Page 65 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 b u t I w i ll d e a l w i th t h a t a s y o u k n o w I c o n t in u e l e a d in g w i t h th is – I m e a n w i t h t h is – g o in g th r o u g h m y a ffi d a v i t o r m y t e s t i m o n y. Yo u k n o w a s w e w e r e s i t ti n g th e r e s h e s a id t o m e th e r e w a s p l e n ty t h a t s h e w a n t e d t o g iv e m e i n t e r m s o f th e e v id e n c e y o u k n o w d o c u m e n t a r y e v i d e n c e t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e w h o l e t h i n g h o w it s t a r t e d , h o w t h e y w e n t o n a n d w h o w a s a c t u a lly y o u k n o w p a r t o f t h is e n ti t y a n d s h e e v e n w e n t o n to m e n t i o n th a t y o u k n o w f o r t h a t m a t t e r s h e d id n o t e v e n a p p o i n t a s in g le p e r s o n in h e r e n t i ty r e la t in g t o t h i s g r o u n d h a n d li n g . Now Mr C h a ir y o u k n o w w e w e r e a t t h r e e p l a c e s a r o u n d t h a t d a y b e c a u s e o f w e 10 h a d t o m o v e fr o m W i m p y w h e r e I w a s h a v i n g b r e a k fa s t w h e n s h e a r r iv e d a n y w a y. W e h a d to m o v e fr o m th e r e t o h e r h o u s e t h a t is w h e n I g o t to s e e h e r h o u s e . W e f e tc h e d s o m e d o c u m e n ts a n d s o m e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s . I t w a s q u i t e a lo t o f s t u ff w e t h e n w e n t t o h e r o ff ic e w h e r e y o u k n o w K o r e n e k a w a s a c tu a l ly o p e r a ti n g w i t h i n M a fik e n g C B D . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M g w e n y a i f I m a y j u s t c o m e in th e r e . B e f o r e w e g e t to y o u r m o v e m e n ts o n t h e d a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I w o u l d li k e t o j u s t t o c o n c l u d e w i t h is th e f u ll e x te n t o f t h e s t o r y t h a t s h e to l d y o u a b o u t w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d a f te r 20 K o r e n e k a w a s a p p o in t e d t o d o t h is g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e a t t h e t w o a ir p o r ts . B u t C h a ir j u s t fo r th e r e c o r d p u r p o s e s M r N g w e n y a ’s e v i d e n c e r e l a y s w h a t Ms T la t s a n a t o l d h i m b u t M s Tl a ts a n a w il l b e g i v i n g e v i d e n c e i n d u e c o u r s e s o t h e r e w i ll n o t b e a c o n c e r n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t a h e a r s a y a s p e c t th e r e . Page 66 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f w e c a n ju s t g o b a c k Mr N g w e n y a if I c a n lo c a t e y o u a t p a g e 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : P a g e 5 o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u w il l s e e a t t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h t h e r e y o u c o v e r t h e p o in t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g i v e n i n e v i d e n c e a b o u t M r Va n W y k s a y i n g t o h e r t h a t s h e w o u l d n o t b e s u c c e s s fu l i n t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t u n l e s s s h e h a d m o r e p e o p l e i n th e c o m p a n y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e h e p r o p o s e s M s J o y c e P h i r i a n d Mr Vic t o r Th a b e n g . A n d i f y o u t h e n g o t o p a r a g r a p h 1 5 y o u t a lk t h e r e a b o u t t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t a s s h e r e l a y e d it y o u a n d t h e le v e l o f h e r i n v o l v e m e n t a f t e r th a t p o i n t i n t h e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s o f t h e c o m p a n y. C o u ld y o u d e a l w i t h t h o s e tw o a s p e c ts ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : O k a y. Th a n k y o u . C h a ir fr o m p o i n t 1 5 o f t h i s a ffi d a v it s h e c o n fi r m e d t o m e t h a t s h e s ig n e d a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A E x p r e s s t h a t r e l a t e s t o th e P il a n e s b e r g a n d M a f ik e n g a i r p o r ts a n d th a t M r Va n W y k d i d n o t g iv e h e r a c o p y o f t h e c o n tr a c t. S h e a l s o s a id t o m e t h a t in a c t u a l fa c t t h e p l a n w a s t h a t M r 20 Va n W y k w a s s u p p o s e d to h e l p h e r u n ti l s h e f in d h e r f o o ti n g t o b e a b l e t o m a n a g e th a t c o n tr a c t . H o w e v e r a ft e r y o u k n o w a p p o in t in g th e tw o d ir e c t o r s s h e c l a i m e d – o r – s h e t o l d m e t h a t M r Va n W y k b r o u g h t a p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f M r D a v i d K a l is i li r a w h o w a s t h e – s u p p o s e d t o b e t h e c o m p a n y ’s a c c o u n ta n t a s th e y a l s o h a d t o a g r e e t h a t s h e w o u ld r u n w it h y o u k n o w th e r u n n in g o f t h e f in a n c e s y o u k n o w. Page 67 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n te r ms o f o t h e r a p p o in t e e s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 y o u ta lk a b o u t th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r K a l is il ir a t h a t is K a lis il ir a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a n o t h e r a p p o i n t m e n t th a t y o u r e f e r t o in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 a n d th a t r e l a te s to M r P h ir i a n d w h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o 10 d o a n d M s D u b e . C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t s h e r e c o u n te d t o y o u about those two people? M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y th a n k s . I w a s a c t u a ll y g o i n g t h e r e M a ’ a m . C h a ir a s I s a id t h a t s h e b r o u g h t M r K a lis il ir a fir s t a s a fi n a n c i a l y o u k n o w a c c o u n t a n t t h e n s h e b r o u g h t a l s o a p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f Mr L e v y S ip h o P h ir i w h o t h e n a p p o i n t e d M s N o th a n d o D u b e t o r u n w i th t h e o p e r a ti o n a s a m a n a g e r y o u k n o w, K o r e n e k a ’s m a n a g e r t o r u n w i t h t h e y o u k n o w a d m in is tr a ti v e a n d o p e r a t io n a l s id e o f t h i n g s w i t h i n K o r e n e k a w h il e M s Tl a ts a n a w a s n o t r e a lly i n v o l v e d . S h e w a s a c t u a ll y h a n d s o ff . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a w h o d id s h e r e l a y t o y o u a p p o i n t e d t h e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s ta ff ? M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : S h e s a i d t h a t Mr S ip h o P h ir i w a s a ls o i n v o l v e d i n th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e v e r y s a m e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s t a ff . Th a t o b v i o u s l y y o u k n o w th e y h a v e d o n e t h e c h e c k in a n d a l l t h e o th e r f u n c t i o n s w it h y o u k n o w th a t a r e r e la t e d t o t h e c o n tr a c t . Page 68 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then if you turn over the page to page 6 y o u t a l k t h e r e – y o u e n q u i r e d f r o m h e r a s I h a v e y o u r a ff id a v i t a b o u t t h e i n v o ic i n g u n d e r th e a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e e x t e n t o f h e r in v o lv e m e n t i n t h a t . C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t s h e r e l a y e d t o y o u a b o u t th a t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C a n y o u r e p e a t th a t M a ’ a m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : A n d t h e p a r a g r a p h t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o w i t h i t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e I a m p ic k i n g i t u p is i n th e m i d d l e o f t h a t paragraph. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e y o u s a y s h e f u r t h e r m e n ti o n e d t h a t s h e d i d n o t p u t a n y c l a i m s e it h e r t o S A A – s o r r y S A E x p r e s s n o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I r e m e m b e r l o n g a f te r I h a d m e t h e r s h e a s k e d m e a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s o f i n v o ic i n g a t S A E x p r e s s . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : Ye s . A s I w a s s p e a k in g t o h e r i t b e c a m e a p p a r e n t t o m e t h a t s h e d id n o t r e a ll y k n o w t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e a s w e w e r e t a lk i n g s h e k e p t o n r e fe r r i n g t o M r Va n W y k te ll in g h i m t h a t th i s n e e d e d t o b e d o n e a n d h o w a n d w h e n a n d t h a t t h e r e is m o n e y th a t n e e d s to b e p a i d fr o m t h a t a c c o u n t I m e a n fr o m – b y K o r e n e k a y o u k n o w a s t h e f a c il i ty m a n a g e r. Page 69 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M a y b e I n e e d t o c l a r i fy q u ic k ly th is . W e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t a [i n d is t in c t] r e l a ti o n s h i p h e r e w h e r e t h e r e w a s t h e N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . Th e r e w a s S A E x p r e s s . T h e r e w a s K o r e n e k a . Now K o r e n e k a w a s th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t o b o t h e n ti t ie s . K o r e n e k a w a s th e f a c i li ty m a n a g e r f o r t h e N o r t h W e s t g o v e r n m e n t a n d w a s a p p o i n t e d f o r t h a t s p e c i fic f u n c t io n b y S A A – b y S A E x p r e s s o n b e h a l f o f t h e N o r t h W e s t g o v e r n m e n t. I a m s a y i n g th is j u s t t o c la r i fy m a t t e r s s o w e c a n n o t c o n fu s e is s u e s . O n t h e o t h e r h a n d K o r e n e k a w a s p r o v i d i n g t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v i c e s fo r S A E x p r e s s . S A E x p r e s s a p p o in t e d K o r e n e k a t o 10 provide that service. N o w b e c a u s e o f h e r e I a m t a lk in g a b o u t t h e C C T V, I a m ta lk in g a b o u t fu n c t io n s t h a t h a d a b s o lu t e l y n o t h in g t o d o w i t h S A E x p r e s s t h a t is t h e r e a s o n I a m g i v in g t h is c l a r it y. S o w e – y o u u n d e r s t a n d C h a i r a s t o w h e r e I a m c o m i n g fr o m . N o w i n t h is r e g a r d I a m s a y i n g s h e d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e c o n t e n t o f th e c o n tr a c t . I w o u ld s a y b o t h c o n t r a c t s b e c a u s e s h e s ta t e d c l e a r ly t o s a y s h e d i d n o t – M r Va n W y k d id n o t g iv e h e r a n y c o n tr a c t . S h e s i g n e d b u t s h e d id n o t r e c e i v e th e c o p ie s o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d t h e n s h e r e li e d o n h i m . I n t h is r e g a r d w h e r e w o u l d – I s p e a k a b o u t t h e C C T V, I s p e a k a b o u t a n y t h i n g t h a t h a s t o d o w i t h th e a ir p o r t r e f u r b i s h m e n t w h a ts o e v e r h a d a b s o l u t e ly 20 n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e S A E x p r e s s s e r v ic e le v e l a g r e e m e n t b u t th e North West. N o w s h e r e l ie d o n M r v a n W y k a n d s h e s a i d t o m e b e c a u s e o f – M r C h a i r – o u t o f t h e b u n d l e th a t s h e g a v e m e t h e r e w e r e i n v o i c e s , e x p e n s e a u th o r is a ti o n , m o n e y – y o u k n o w – a m o u n t i n g t o R 5 1 m i lli o n t h a t w a s p a id to K o r e n e k a a n d o n t h o s e i n v o ic e s s h e s a id s h e d i d n o t Page 70 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 p r e p a r e e v e n a s i n g l e in v o ic e – y o u k n o w – t o – t o c l a i m t h e r e m u n e r a t io n fr o m e i t h e r e n ti ty o f w h ic h w i t h S A E x p r e s s s h e n e v e r e v e n s u b m i t te d a s i n g l e i n v o i c e a t t h a t p a r ti c u la r t i m e . T h e r e f o r e s h e s a i d i t c l e a r ly to m e th a t s h e d i d n o t r e a l ly s u b m i t a n y t h i n g a n d t h o u g h t h e m o n e y w e n t i n to h e r a c c o u n t – y o u know … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 M r N g w e n y a y o u a t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 t h e n r e la y h o w s h e e x p la in e d t o y o u t h a t a c o n f li c t a r o s e a t a p o i n t in h e r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h Mr v a n W y k . C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t c o n f lic t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : At some stage of this whole – w h o le t h i n g a s I s a i d t h a t M s – M s D u b e w a s t h e M a n a g e r m a n a g i n g K o r e n e k a . T h e – M s T l a t s a n a a c tu a lly d i s m is s e d M s D u b e – y o u k n o w – a s t h e M a n a g e r fo r K o r e n e k a . M a y b e b e c a u s e o f t h e ir d i ff e r e n c e s o r s h e d id n o t r e a l ly r e p o r t t o h e r. S h e w a s i n f a c t r e p o r t in g to M r v a n W y k . H e th e n d i s m is s e d h e r a n d th a t s ta r t e d t h i s w h o l e fr ic ti o n b e t w e e n h e r a n d - I m e a n M s Tl a ts a n a - a n d M r v a n W y k w h e r e Mr v a n W y k w a s n o t r e a l ly h a p p y 20 a b o u t t h e d i s m is s a l o f – o f M s D u b e . I would assume that because M s D u b e w a s b r o u g h t M s – M r S i p h o P h ir i w h o w a s b r o u g h t b y Mr van Wyk. H e n c e s h e w a s n o t r e a l ly p e r h a p s – h e w a s n o t r e a ll y s a ti s f i e d a n d th e n h e t h r e a t e n e d Ms T l a t s a n a t o s a y h e w i ll ta k e t h e c o n tr a c t a n d g iv e i t t o s o m e b o d y e l s e a s h e w a s t h e o n e w h o a c t u a ll y Page 71 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 b r o u g h t th is a n d t h a t Mr C h a ir c a n b e c o n fir m e d v i a e it h e r t h e – t h e a u d io r e c o r d i n g s o r t h e S M S ’ – y o u k n o w – e x c h a n g e d b e tw e e n M s Tl a ts a n a a n d M r Br ia n v a n W y k . A t t h a t ti m e M r B r i a n v a n W y k w a s u t il is i n g h is o w n p e r s o n a l c e l l p h o n e a n d a l s o w h a t e v e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t w a s b e t w e e n t h e m v i a e m a i l i t w a s n o t o n S A E x p r e s s – y o u k n o w – e m a il a c c o u n t b u t o n h is p e r s o n a l G m a il a c c o u n t . So strange that you run - you know – c o m p a n y b u s i n e s s b u t y o u – y o u a r e p u t ti n g y o u r o w n ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: When … 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n M s Tl a ts a n a s a i d t o y o u s h e h a d n o t b e e n a c ti v e in t h is g r o u n d h a n d li n g b u s in e s s o f h e r s w h a t p e r i o d w a s s h e t a lk in g a b o u t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t t h e p e r io d to h e r m e e ti n g w i t h y o u o r w a s s h e s a y in g e v e n a s a t t h e t i m e t h a t s h e w a s m e e t in g w i th y o u s h e w a s s t il l n o t a c ti v e in t h e b u s in e s s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h e – i t w a s a c t u a l ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u u n d e r s ta n d h e r. 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s p r io r b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y a s s h e g e n e r a t e d t h e s t o r y to s a y t h e s e w e r e - w e r e th e is s u e s – t h e c o n fli c ts t h a t – y o u k n o w – h a p p e n e d . It w a s a c tu a lly p r i o r b e f o r e – I m e a n – p r i o r o u r m e e t in g . CHAIRPERSON: So when … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S o … Page 72 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: When you met … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A lr e a d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t – w a s t h a t s h e w a s a c ti v e in the business? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h a t ju n c t u r e w h e n w e m e t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S h e – s h e t o o k c h a r g e b e c a u s e – s h e h a d f ir e d M s N o t h a n d a D u b e a n d I t h i n k a t t h a t t i m e r e p l a c e d h e r w i t h – w i t h s o m e b o d y e ls e – a Ms ( i n d is ti n c t) L e w is . 10 S o m e t h in g l ik e that. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a t i s f i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n Mr N g w e n y a a t p a r a g r a p h s 1 8 a n d 1 9 y o u i n a s e n s e j u m p fo r w a r d … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d o v e r ti m e w h e n s t e p s w e r e t a k e n t o r e p la c e K o r e n e k a w i t h o th e r e n ti t ie s i n r e l a t i o n to g r o u n d h a n d li n g ? C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t a n d t h e n w e w i ll g o t o 20 t h e t o p ic o f t h e r e c o r d i n g s th a t y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d t o p o i n t s i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y a lr e a d y b u t j u s t t o c o m p l e te t h e p ic t u r e a t 1 8 I h a v e t h a t s h e s a y s c o n f lic t d e v e l o p s b e t w e e n Mr v a n W y k a n d h e r s e l f a f te r s h e d is m i s s e s Ms D u b e a n d t h e n if y o u c a n t a k e u s fu r t h e r i n t i m e f r o m t h a t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e p l a c e m e n t o f K o r e n e k a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. O b v i o u s l y C h a ir – n o i t i s Page 73 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 n o t o b v io u s – b e c a u s e o f t h e c o n fl ic t C h a ir b e tw e e n Mr v a n W y k a n d M s Tl a ts a n a a n d t h r e a t e n i n g t o – t o t a k e h e r o u t I t h i n k M r v a n W y k t o o k a d r a s ti c s t e p t o a c t u a ll y tr y a n d r e p l a c e K o r e n e k a . N o w M r C h a ir I m u s t b r i n g t h i s to y o u r a t t e n t io n t o s a y t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s s i g n e d i t w a s f o r a p e r io d o f 5 y e a r s . N o w K o r e n e k a w a s p r o v id i n g l ik e t w o d i ffe r e n t k i n d o f s e r v ic e s to t w o d i ff e r e n t e n ti t ie s . H o w e v e r Mr v a n W y k d e c i d e d to s a y n o h e w o u ld te r m in a t e a s p r o m i s e d t h e n Va l o te c k c a m e i n t o th e p ic t u r e . T h i s Va l o t e c k h o w i t c a m e i n t o t h e p ic tu r e M r … 10 CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e t h e Va lo t e c k j u s t r e m i n d m e w h a t w a s M r v a n W y k ’s p o s it i o n a t S A E x p r e s s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : M r v a n W y k ’s p o s i t io n a t S A E x p r e s s w a s t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o m m e r c ia l . C H A I R P E R S O N : In N o r th W e s t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o , n o S A E x p r e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S A E x p r e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N a ti o n a ll y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Ja, you may proceed. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e w a s t h e H e a d … Page 74 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O f t h e C o m m e r c i a l D e p a r t m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e to Va l o t e c k . I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o b e n a m e o f a c o m p a n y. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t is t h e n a m e o f t h e c o m p a n y m a ’a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Th e fu ll n a m e is r e f le c te d o n o n e o f t h e a g r e e m e n ts a t ta c h e d to y o u r a ff id a v i t. I t i s Va l o te c k a n d t h a t is V- A- L O - T- E - C - K F a c il it i e s M a n a g e m e n t C C . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t m a ’a m c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e a t s o m e p o in t K o r e n e k a is r e p l a c e d b y Va lo t e c k … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P u r s u a n t t o a d e c i s io n b y M r v a n W y k . T h a t is w h a t i s r e l a y e d t o y o u . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t m a ’a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n s t h e r e a f te r ? I s Va l o t e c k th e n 20 t h e r e a f te r r e p l a c e d i ts e l f ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h e t i m e - r e m e m b e r th e - t h e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n K o r e n e k a a n d – a n d E x p r e s s a s w e l l a s t h e N o r th W e s t w a s a c t u a ll y s t ill o n . I t w a s s ti ll e ffe c tiv e b u t b e c a u s e o f t h i s m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g M r v a n W y k w a n te d to t a k e K o r e n e k a o u t . H e t h e n a p p o in t e d Va l o t e c k a n d w h e n Va l o te c k c a m e in t o t h e Page 75 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 p ic t u r e t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o t a k e o v e r fr o m – fr o m K o r e n e k a b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e w h e n s h e t o l d m e s h e s a id - it w a s J u n e - a n d s h e s a id Va lo t e c k w a s a p p o i n te d e ff e c t iv e M a y – I t h i n k - 1 M a y b u t w h e n t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to t a k e o v e r t h is – t h is Va lo t e c k t a k e o v e r f r o m – f r o m Koreneka at that time Koreneka – you know – involved – you know – t h e ir l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t io n . T h a t is M s T la t s a n a w h o - w h o d i d e x a c t ly th a t b e c a u s e a t t h a t t i m e s h e w a s t h e s o l e o w n e r o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . S o s h e t o ld m e t h a t s h e – s h e t h r e a te n e d S A E x p r e s s w i t h th e la w y e r s t o s a y th e r e i s 10 g o i n g – y o u k n o w – th e y w o u ld ta k e S A E x p r e s s o n – o n t h e b a s i s t h a t t h e y w e r e b r e a c h i n g t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d th e n a f t e r Va lo t e c k – a t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u r l a t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s in d i c a t e d t h a t Va l o te c k h a d b e e n p a i d a n a m o u n t o f 1 5 m il li o n b y th e d e p a r t m e n t b u t h a d r e n d e r e d n o s e r v ic e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t m a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u c o n c l u d e p a r a g r a p h 1 9 b y i n d ic a ti n g w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e e n d to Va lo t e c k . W h a t – w h a t w e r e y o u a b le to e s t a b li s h in r e l a ti o n t o Va lo t e c k ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A s I s ta t e d t h a t Va l o t e c k d i d n o t conduct any management. services either fo r ground h a n d li n g H o w e v e r I r e c e iv e d in f o r m a t io n . or for f a c ili t y I w a s t o l d th a t t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t p a id o r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t – t h e N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t p a i d a n a m o u n t a r o u n d t h e r e g i o n o f 1 5 m i ll io n t o – t o Va l o t e c k – y o u k n o w – f o r – c l e a r ly p r o v i d i n g t h e Page 76 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s e r v ic e th a t th e y d i d n o t r e a ll y d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : s e r v ic e t o S A Ex p r e s s . Va l o te c k d i d n o t p r o v i d e a n y Th e r e is n o r e c o r d w it h in S A E x p r e s s t h a t w o u ld i n d ic a t e t h a t Va l o t e c k p r o v i d e d a s e r v ic e a n d a s f a r a s I k n o w t h e y d i d n o t p r o v id e a s e r v ic e t o t h e N o r t h W e s t b e c a u s e o f K o r e n e k a h u n g o n t o t h e c o n tr a c t u n t il s u c h ti m e th e y w e r e t a k e n o u t w h e n M A M C O m o v e d i n w h ic h i s a n o th e r c o m p a n y ( in d i s ti n c t) b u t w h a t I a ls o e s t a b li s h e d w a s th a t Va l o t e c k a ft e r r e c e i v i n g t h e m o n e y th e y li q u i d a t e d 10 – a f t e r r e c e iv in g t h a t 1 5 m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t s e r v ic e s d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d Va l o t e c k to h a v e b e e n r e q u i r e d to r e n d e r in o r d e r t o b e e n t i t le d to t h is R 1 5 m i ll io n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : In a c tu a l f a c t t h e v e r y s a m e s e r v ic e s t h a t w e r e p r o v id e d o r r e n d e r e d b y K o r e n e k a a s t h e c o n tr a c t s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : It i s a c u t a n d p a s te fr o m K o r e n e k a t o Va l o te c k w i t h d i ffe r e n t f i g u r e s … CHAIRPERSON: But … 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I n t e r m s o f r e m u n e r a t io n fr o m the SA Express side. CHAIRPERSON: B u t h a s – h a d t h e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a b e e n te r m in a t e d a t t h e t i m e th a t Va lo t e c k w a s … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o , n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : G i v e n th e c o n t r a c t ? Page 77 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : No. H e n c e I s a id t h a t w h e n I s t a r t e d th e in v e s ti g a t i o n i t w a s J u n e a n d t h e c o n tr a c t w a s s t il – y o u k n o w – o n g o i n g - th e K o r e n e k a o n e . Va l o t e c k w a s a p p o in t e d e ff e c ti v e M a y o f t h e v e r y s a m e y e a r. S o Va l o t e c k d id n o t r e a ll y ta k e o v e r f r o m – fr o m K o r e n e k a . I n a c tu a l f a c t M s T l a t s a n a t o l d m e t h a t M s N o t h a n d a D u b e w a s s p r e a d i n g r u m o u r s th a t K o r e n e k a w a s to l e a v e t h e a i r p o r t a n d b e – y o u k n o w – b e r e p l a c e d Va lo t e c k . S o Va l o te c k w a s g o i n g t o t a k e o v e r fr o m K o r e n e k a b u t t h a t d i d n o t m a t e r i a lis e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B e c a u s e Va lo t e c k – I m e a n – K o r e n e k a - y o u k n o w – h u n g o n to t h e – to t h is c o n tr a c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr … CHAIRPERSON: But you said the – you suggested that there was a c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d Va l o t e c k a n d y o u s a i d i t w a s a c u t a n d p a s t e o f t h e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d - a n d K o r e n e k a . Is t h a t – is t h a t w h a t th e p o s i ti o n w a s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u t e l y C h a ir. A t t h e ti m e w h e n I w a s a c t u a l ly in v e s ti g a t in g I d i s c o v e r e d t h a t K o r e n e k a – I m e a n – 20 Va lo t e c k w a s a p p o i n te d b y S A E x p r e s s t h r o u g h a n R F Q p r o c e s s w h e r e t h r e e q u o te s w e r e r e q u e s t e d fr o m t h e m a r k e t – y o u k n o w – fo r th e p r o v i s i o n i n f a c t o f la b o u r b r o k i n g - y o u k n o w – l a b o u r b r o k e r a g e s e r v ic e s . S o th a t is h o w Va l o te c k w a s b r o u g h t i n t o E x p r e s s a n d i f I my m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll Va l o te c k w a s t h e o n ly e n t it y t h a t r e s p o n d e d t o Page 78 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h a t r e q u e s t w h ic h w a s s e n t o u t – y o u k n o w – f o r q u o ta t io n . So the c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a t th e ti m e w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t a v a i l a b le . T h e r e w a s ju s t a n a w a r d l e t te r – y o u k n o w – f o r Va lo t e c k t o p r o v i d e t h e l a b o u r b r o k e r a g e s e r v i c e s . T h e c o n tr a c t – l e t m e p u t it t h i s w a y. T h e r e w a s n o s i g n e d c o n tr a c t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h e t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I did not see any s ig n e d c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d e v e n d u r i n g m y i n v e s t i g a t io n w h e n I w e n t t o d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts t o tr y a n d e s t a b l is h a s t o w h e t h e r w e h a v e a c o p y o r n o t I w a s a c t u a l ly t o ld t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e a s i g n e d c o n tr a c t a t th e ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d Va lo t e c k ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S A E x p r e s s a n d Va l o t e c k y e s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h a t is t h e c u t a n d p a s t e t h a t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g about – cut and paste … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ta c t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. Maybe I am too forward C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B u t if y o u l o o k a t t h e Va l o t e c k c o n tr a c t – th e a c t u a l c o n tr a c t – t h a t w a s … Page 79 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h h a p p e n e d a f te r w a r d s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r m a y b e c o n t i n u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e c h a l le n g e s w i th t h is p a r t o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n is th e r e a r e n u m e r o u s c o m p a n i e s th a t r e p l a c e e a c h o t h e r w i th i n a b li n k o f a n e y e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w e w il l d o i s w e w il l g o t h r o u g h e a c h o f t h o s e a g r e e m e n ts … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t – w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d o f y o u r e v id e n c e M r N g w e n y a a n d C h a ir I n o t e t h a t w e a r e a t t h e lu n c h b r e a k b u t i f w e c o u l d j u s t c o n c l u d e o n t h is p o in t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e f o r e d o in g s o . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ngwenya. Th e r e a r e j u s t t w o t h i n g s I w a n t to c la r i fy Yo u – I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e th e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t f o r g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v i c e s c o n c l u d e d b e t w e e n S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a . Page 80 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s i n a b o u t A p r il 2 0 1 5 . C o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t w h e n t h e r e – a f te r t h e r e is t h is c o n f li c t th a t d e v e l o p s b e tw e e n M r v a n W y k a n d M s Tl a ts a n a a r e p l ic a a g r e e m e n t is s i g n e d a n d c o n c l u d e d n o w b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d th is c o m p a n y c a l l e d Va lo t e c k . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w l e t u s j u s t b r i n g l a b o u r b r o k i n g s e r v ic e s i n b e c a u s e i t g e t s q u i t e c o n f u s in g . A s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e in t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h e o n ly e v id e n c e y o u c o u l d f in d w i th in S A E x p r e s s o f a n a c t u a l a w a r d o f a n y c o n tr a c t t o Va l o t e c k a t a ll r e la t e d to s o m e q u o t a ti o n t h a t w a s s o u g h t f o r la b o u r b r o k e r i n g s e r v i c e s . Is t h a t correct? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n m y f i n a l p o in t o f c l a r if ic a ti o n . Yo u m e n ti o n M s D u b e i n th e c o n t e x t o f Va l o te c k … 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e n e e d t o u n p a c k th a t a l i tt l e b i t b e c a u s e w e h a d h e a r d a b o u t Ms D u b e i n K o r e n e k a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e i t w a s w h e n M s Tl a ts a n a d i s m is s e d h e r … Page 81 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m K o r e n e k a th a t th e c o n fli c t b e tw e e n M r v a n W y k a n d M s T la t s a n a a r o s e a s s h e r e c o u n t e d i t t o y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t – w h a t h a p p e n s to M s D u b e ? Where d o e s s h e fe a t u r e a g a i n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Thank you. Ms Dube was the o w n e r o f Va l o t e c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f Va l o t e c k ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O f Va lo t e c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Yo u k n o w I m a y h a v e to g o b a c k a n d fo r t h i n r e l a ti o n t o t h i s . L i k e I s a i d t h a t in a c t u a l f a c t i f y o u l o o k a t it C h a ir M s D u b e w a s a p p o i n te d a s a M a n a g e r – y o u k n o w – f o r K o r e n e k a b y s o m e b o d y t h a t w a s b r o u g h t i n b y M r B r ia n v a n W y k . N o w w h e n M s D u b e g o t fir e d b y M s T l a t s a n a – y o u k n o w – a t K o r e n e k a s h e s t a r t e d a c o m p a n y w h i c h w a s Va l o t e c k . N o w i n t h i s c o m p a n y t h e r e w e r e tw o . I t h i n k i t w a s – s h e w a s a 5 0 p e r c e n t h o l d e r – y o u k n o w – o f t h e s h a r e h o ld in g a n d t h e r e w a s 20 a n o t h e r p e r s o n b y th e n a m e o f – I t h i n k – K e f il w e M o g o d i r i . T h is K e fi l w e M o g o d ir i a ls o h e ld a 5 0 p e r c e n t p a r t o f t h e s h a r e s . N o w t h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g t h e r e is a c o n ti n u a t i o n w i t h Ms - M s D u b e . N o w M r v a n W y k w a s n o t s a t is fi e d w i th h e r d is m i s s a l a n d s h e a p p o i n t – h e a p p o in t e d Va l o t e c k . N o w t h is e l e m e n t – M s D u b e – y o u k n o w – c o n ti n u e d to b e p a r t o f t h i s w h o le t h in g . S h e w a s fir e d t h e r e . Page 82 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 T h e n Va lo t e c k s u r f a c e d a n d M s D u b e w a s a c t u a ll y t h e o w n e r o f th a t e n t i ty. To m e i t w a s w e l l o r c h e s tr a t e d t o s a y y o u k n o w w h a t w e w il l c o n ti n u e w h e r e w e – y o u k n o w – y o u le f t o ff . S o th e y tr i e d t o t a k e o u t K o r e n e k a b y u ti lis i n g t h is Va l o t e c k a n d i t d id n o t m a t e r i a lis e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u M r N g w e n y a . W e r e y o u a b l e to e s t a b li s h a n y r e la t io n s h ip b e tw e e n M s D u b e a n d M r v a n W y k o th e r t h a n h e r a p p o in t m e n t i n i t ia ll y i n K o r e n e k a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 10 N o t r e a ll y m a ’ a m in t h a t r e g a r d b e c a u s e t h e o n ly t h i n g th a t I c a n s a y I c o u l d s e e j u s t – y o u k n o w – M s D u b e m o v i n g fr o m o n e e n t it y t o t h e o t h e r u p t o – y o u k n o w – y o u r p r i m e g o a l . S o I c a n n o t r e a l ly – I d o n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g t a n g ib l e t o s a y – y o u k n o w – th e r e i s – t h e y h a d t h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p o r w h a ts o e v e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir j u s t t o a s s is t t h o s e w h o a r e n o t a s f a m ili a r w i t h th e fa c ts a s Mr N g w e n y a is . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e h a s m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o M A M C O a n d PA M C O . 20 They are subsequent companies … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o r e c e iv e d t h e s a m e g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s a g r e e m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e w i ll c o m e t o th e m i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e Page 83 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 evidence. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w i ll t a k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t 1 0 p a s t t w o . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir, th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r ju s t o n e p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t b e f o r e w e r e tu r n t o Mr N g w e n y a ’s e v i d e n c e i f I m a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O u r s e c o n d p l a n n e d w i t n e s s fo r to d a y is Mr P ir i. W e h a v e e n g a g e d w i th h i m a b o u t th e p o s s i b i li ty o f a n e a r l y s ta r t t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h h e c a n c o n v e n i e n t ly m a k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 It is m y e s ti m a t io n th a t h e w o n ’ t s ta r t t o d a y t h a t t h e id e a w o u l d b e t o c o m p l e t e Mr N g w e n y a ’s e v id e n c e a n d i n th e li g h t o f t h a t w e r e q u e s t t h a t h e b e e x c u s e d to r e t u r n t o m o r r o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t h a t ’s f in e , h e is e x c u s e d h e c a n r e t u r n t o m o r r o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d h e r e t u r n s to m o r r o w a t e i g h t ? Page 84 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t e i g h t o ’c lo c k , t h a t ’s t h e a r r a n g e m e n t, t h a n k you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a w e w e r e ju s t a b o u t t o tu r n t o p a g e 7 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t b e f o r e t h e l u n c h b r e a k , s o I w o u ld lik e u s t o s t a r t th e r e i f w e m a y. T h is is w h e r e y o u s t a r t t o d e ta il t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s a n d d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u w e r e p r o v id e d w i t h b y M s T la t s a n a , c a n y o u t a k e u s th r o u g h w h a t y o u w e r e h a n d e d b y h e r o n t h a t d a y t h a t y o u m e t o v e r t h e w e e k e n d in J u n e ? O h M r N g w e n y a if y o u w il l t u r n o n 10 t h e m ic r o p h o n e , j u s t p r e s s t h a t . O h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e s s t h e o t h e r o n e . T h e r e a r e tw o b a r s th e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e y o u g o . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h , e is h , I a m o l d s c h o o l . Thank you Mr Ngwenya, not at all. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : C h a ir s h e h a n d e d m e a b u n c h o f d o c u m e n ta r y e v id e n c e w h ic h c o n s i s t e d o f th e c o n tr a c ts , th a t i s th e c o n tr a c t b e tw e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h w e s t G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e c o n tr a c t between S A Express and Koreneka, and th e sms c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e tw e e n M s T l a t s a n a a n d M r v a n W y k . S h e a ls o h a n d e d 20 m e t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n t , th e K o r e n e k a b a n k s t a t e m e n t t h a t d e p i c te d a s t o h o w m u c h w a s p a i d in t o K o r e n e k a b y S A Ex p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h w e s t G o v e r n m e n t a n d h o w i t w a s d is b u r s e d a f t e r y o u k n o w i t w a s r e c e iv e d . Yo u k n o w t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t to o k p l a c e a ft e r. W h a t e ls e d i d s h e g i v e m e , c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n h e r a n d M r v a n W y k a n d t h e r e w a s o n e b e tw e e n h e r a n d t h e – w h e r e s h e s e n t Page 85 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a n e m a il t o t h e G M L e g a l R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e , i t w a s q u it e a n u m b e r o f t h o s e a n d th e a u d i o r e c o r d in g s q u i t e a n u m b e r o f th o s e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s , s o m e o f t h o s e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s w e r e r e c o r d e d o v e r th e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n , s o m e i t w a s o n t h e r e c o r d e r y o u k n o w w h e r e t h e y w e r e s i t t in g i n a p a r tic u la r r e s t a u r a n t a r o u n d t h e N o r t h w e s t , s o t h a t ’s b a s ic a lly w h a t s h e h a n d e d o v e r t o m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I h o p e I d id n o t l e a v e a n y th i n g ? No I was checking, I would have referred you t o i t i f th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g i n y o u r a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u ’ d n e g le c t e d t o m e n ti o n . M r N g w e n y a a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o n p a g e 7 y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e s u m t o t a l o f th e a m o u n ts t h a t t h o s e b a n k s t a te m e n ts r e f l e c te d h a d b e e n r e c e i v e d b y K o r e n e k a . W h a t a r e t h o s e a m o u n ts ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : R 3 1 m i ll io n w a s r e c e i v e d fr o m S A E x p r e s s , h o w e v e r i t w a s n o t a l u m p s u m , it w a s i n tr e n c h e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w i ll g o i n t o t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , a n d t h e n t h e R 2 0 m il li o n t h a t w a s c o mi n g fr o m t h e N o r t h w e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o in t o ta l R 5 1 m i lli o n is t h a t r i g h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R 5 1 m i ll io n , c o r r e c t . And if we then move to paragraph 21, in p a r a g r a p h 2 1 y o u s t a r t t o r e c o u n t t h e e v e n t s t h a t th e n u n fo ld e d a f te r t h a t w e e k e n d fr o m M o n d a y t h e 2 7 t h , c a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t s t e p s you took on that Monday? Page 86 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : The Monday of course let me ju s t s a y t h e S u n d a y I w e n t t h r o u g h th e r e c o r d i n g b u t I d i d n o t li s te n to a l l o f t h e m , t h e n th e M o n d a y b e c a u s e a lr e a d y I h a d e s t a b l is h e d t h r o u g h t h e r e c o r d in g C h a ir a s t o h o w m u c h w a s M r v a n W y k i m p l ic a te d a n d a ll y o u k n o w t h e a m o u n t s t h a t w e r e i n v o l v e d a n d t h a t , a n d th a t o n o n e o f t h e r e c o r d i n g s Mr v a n W y k h a d i m p l ic a t e d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e S A E x p r e s s B o a r d a s w e l l a s t h e C E O a n d . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) CHAIRPERSON: The chairperson of? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S A E x p r e s s B o a r d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N ts h a n g a . A s w e l l a s t h e C E O , M r I n a ti By th e w a y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A E x p r e s s B o a r d , t h o u g h h e d i d n o t m e n t io n th e n a m e , h is n a m e is Mr – t h e t h e n C h a ir p e r s o n M r G e o r g e M u t h e m a . H e a l s o i m p l ic a te d p r o m in e n t p e o p le w i t h i n t h e N a ti o n a l a n d P r o v i n c ia l g o v e r n m e n t , M in is t e r s y o u k n o w a n d t h e r e s t t h a t I w o u l d m e n ti o n a s w e g o a lo n g , o n h is w h a t y o u c a l l it . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e r e c o r d in g . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O n t h e r e c o r d i n g y e s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Th e n t h e M o n d a y I c a l le d . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: W h a t d a y o f t h e w e e k w o u ld i t – w a s i t a S a t u r d a y when you met with her? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I m e t w it h h e r o n a S a t u r d a y. Page 87 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I l e ft t h e N o r th w e s t a t n i g h t , I got home just before midnight. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : Th e n t h e S u n d a y I w e n t th r o u g h t h e r e c o r d i n g s in p a r t ic u l a r t h e o n e t h a t s h e p l a y e d fo r m e w h e r e t h e s e in d i v i d u a ls w e r e i m p li c a t e d . S o I l is t e n e d o n t h a t o n e , I p l a y e d t h a t o n e r e p e a t e d ly s o , s o a s t o u n d e r s ta n d a s t o y o u k n o w w h a t w a s t h e w h o le s t o r y. T h e n m y a p p r o a c h th e f o ll o w in g d a y w a s t h a t I n e e d e d to 10 g e t th e C E O a n d t h e G M L e g a l R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e t o g e t h e r s o I c a n d e li v e r t h e n e w s , T h e n th e M o n d a y m o r n i n g I r e m e m b e r o n t h a t M o n d a y t h a t w a s t h e 2 7 t h o f J u n e t h e r e w a s a n Ex c o m e e t i n g t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o ta k e p l a c e o n t h a t d a y, s o I w e n t t o w o r k , a r r iv e d e a r ly o f c o u r s e , I tr i e d to g e t h o l d o f M s M o c h o e l e a n d w i t h o u t a n y s u c c e s s , I tr i e d Mr I n a t i N ts h a n g a , t h e C E O , I c o u ld n ’t r e a c h h i m . When I was at work I think s h e w a s o n h e r w a y t o w o r k , I m a n a g e d t o r e a c h h e r a n d I to l d h e r th a t y o u k n o w w h a t I n e e d e d to s e e h e r u r g e n t ly a n d t o g e t h e r w i th t h e C E O b e c a u s e I’v e g o t s o m e n e w s to d e li v e r to th e m a n d y o u k n o w i t ’s 20 p e r t a in in g t h e c o n tr a c t in th e N o r t h w e s t w h e r e i t is a ll e g e d t h a t t h e G M Commercial, Mr Brian van Wyk you know to a certain extent was m a n i p u l a ti n g th is t h i n g , y o u k n o w c o r r u p t i o n a n d I i n d i c a t e d to h e r t h a t I h e a r d e v id e n c e s u p p o r t in g t h e a ll e g a t i o n a n d y o u k n o w I s a t in m y o ffic e . O n a r r iv a l s h e c a m e d ir e c tl y t o m y o ff ic e to lis t e n t o w h a t I h a d t o s a y. Page 88 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s th a t n o w ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : S o r r y, s o r r y C h a ir, t h a t’s M s Mochoele. CHAIRPERSON: The GM? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Th e G M L e g a l R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR TIMOTHY N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : The boss of s e c u r i ty m a n a g e m e n t s o to s p e a k . S o I d e l iv e r e d t h e n e w s t o h e r t o s a y t h i s i s 10 w h a t I h a v e b u t I w o u l d a l s o w a n t to s e e i t to b e p a r t o f t h is , p l e a s e ju s t g e t th is , s h e l e f t m y o ffic e a n d s h e w e n t , a t th a t t i m e th e C E O w a s a lr e a d y y o u k n o w a t w o r k . S h e s p o k e to t h e C E , a d v is e d h e r to s a y h e y t h e r e ’s th is t h i n g t h a t i s h a p p e n i n g a n d Ti m w a n ts t o s e e u s a n d a ll t h a t . N o w th e C E e x c u s e d h i ms e lf fr o m t h e E x c o m e e ti n g o f w h ic h t h e G M L e g a l d i d s a y, s o w e w e n t a n d s a t in t h e C E ’s o ff ic e , e x c u s e m e – in t h e C E O ’s o ff ic e , Mr I n a ti N ts h a n g a a n d w h e n w e g o t t h e r e I a c t u a ll y e x p l a i n e d to th e m y o u k n o w a s t o w h y I w a n te d t o s e e t h e m , I t o l d t h e m t h a t I r e c e iv e d a c a ll o n Fr id a y fr o m a p e r s o n w h o i s b a s e d y o u k n o w i n t h e N o r t h w e s t a n d t h is p e r s o n a ll e g e d t h a t M r B r ia n v a n W y k w a s 20 c o r r u p t a n d i n a w a y h e w a s t r y in g t o t a k e o v e r h e r c o m p a n y a n d t h a t p e r s o n is a c t u a ll y t h e o w n e r o f t h e c o m p a n y K o r e n e k a w h ic h i s t h e g r o u n d s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r f o r S A E x p r e s s i n t h e N o r t h w e s t A ir p o r ts a n d I s a i d to th e m I h a d r e q u e s t e d t h i s p e r s o n n o t to g o to t h e m e d i a , b e c a u s e s h e w a n t e d t o r e p o r t t h i s a n d I a l s o p r o m is e d h e r t h a t I w o u ld e n s u r e th a t t h e C E g iv e s h e r a c a l l s o a s t o c o n fir m t h a t th e m a t te r w a s Page 89 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e p o r t e d t o th e h i g h e s t o ffi c e w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n a s p r o m is e d . S o w h e n I g o t t h e r e I e x p l a in e d a ll t h a t to s a y I ’v e g o t th e a u d io r e c o r d i n g s , y o u k n o w t h is – I a c t u a lly h a d t h e e v i d e n c e w i t h m e a n d t h e s e a u d io r e c o r d i n g s , I e x p l a in e d t h e a u d i o r e c o r d in g s t o s a y s o m e o f t h o s e w e r e r e c o r d e d o v e r y o u k n o w t h e t e l e c o n b e t w e e n Mr v a n W y k a n d M s Tl a ts a n a a n d o t h e r o ffi c ia ls f r o m t h e N o r th w e s t , y o u k n o w a n d a l s o t h e r e w a s o n e th a t I f o c u s e d s p e c i fic a lly o n b e c a u s e i t t o u c h e d o n t h e S A E x p r e s s i n d iv id u a l w h e r e i t i m p li c a t e d t h e C E – I t o l d h i m s tr a i g h t t o s a y i t i m p lic a t e d , M r v a n W y k a c t u a ll y i m p lic a t e d 10 y o u o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r r e c o r d i n g a n d th e B o a r d C h a ir p e r s o n Mr M o t e m a , a n d th a t . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a i f I m a y j u s t th e r e t o l o c a t e y o u i n y o u r a ff id a v i t , w e a r e a t p a g e 8 , a n d i t ’s p a r a g r a p h 2 4 , b e c a u s e th e r e y o u a r e r e c o u n t in g w h a t w a s s p e c if ic a l ly s a id i n r e la t io n t o t h a t r e c o r d i n g t h a t y o u ’r e d e a li n g w i th a t t h e m o m e n t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I w o u ld li k e y o u t o j u s t b e c l e a r a b o u t is w h e n y o u s a y t h e r e c o r d in g s i m p l ic a te d p e o p l e i n w h a t c o n d u c t w e r e t h e y i m p lic a t e d ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : O k a y o n e h o w h e , M r v a n W y k , i m p l ic a t e d th e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e C O o f S A E x p r e s s , h e s a i d th e y w e r e t h e o n e s w h o a c t u a l ly i n i t i a t e d t h e d e a l , w h o w e r e i n c h a r g e o f t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s p e r t a i n i n g t h is w h o l e d e a l a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e a w a r e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t w e r e t a k i n g p la c e y o u k n o w t h e m o v e m e n t o f m o n e y a n d a ll t h a t , s o t h e y w e r e p r i v y t o e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a n d Page 90 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h a t h e s a id h e w a s a c t i n g o n – b a s e d o n in s t r u c t i o n s h e w a s n o t M r v a n W y k , th a t ’s Mr v a n W y k , b u t h e w a s n o t d o in g th i n g s o n h is o w n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a th e r e w e r e o t h e r p e o p le m e n ti o n e d o n t h a t a u d i o r e c o r d i n g , C h a ir j u s t to f a c il i ta t e th e r e m a in d e r o f t h e e v i d e n c e w e d o h a v e t h e r e c o r d in g s a n d t h e p r o p o s a l is to h a v e t h e m p l a y e d d u r i n g th e e v id e n c e o f M s T la ts a n a b e c a u s e s h e w a s in t h o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e ’r e g e t ti n g in a s e n s e t h e b i g g e r p ic tu r e 10 o f th e s t o r y t h r o u g h M r N g w e n y a ’s e v id e n c e , a n d s o M r N g w e n y a if w e c a n ta k e y o u to p a r a g r a p h 2 4 y o u l is t th e r e th e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e i m p l ic a t e d i n th e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g , c o u ld y o u p le a s e r e a d f o r u s w h o t h o s e in d i v i d u a ls a r e ? MR TIMOTHY N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y, apart fr o m the C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e C E O o f S A Ex p r e s s t h e o t h e r in d iv i d u a ls t h a t w e r e i m p l ic a t e d w a s t h e th e n M i n is t e r o f t h e D P E , L y n n e B r o w n , a n d t h e th e n M i n is t e r o f D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t , M i n i s t e r D ip u a P e t e r s , t h e P r e m i e r o f th e N o r th w e s t , M r S u p r a M a h u m a p e lo , t h e H O D o f t h e N o r t h w e s t w h ic h I a s s u m e t h a t w a s M r B a i le y M a h l a k o l e n g a n d t h e C F O o f w h i c h I 20 d o n ’t k n o w t h e n a m e it w a s n o t m e n t io n e d a s to w h o th e p e r s o n w a s , t h e M E C fr o m t h e N o r t h w e s t a n d a M r W o l m a r a n s w h o m s h e a ll e g e d t h a t w a s m o r e lik e a r i g h t h a n d m a n o f t h e Pr e m i e r. Th o s e w e r e t h e in d i v i d u a ls th a t w e r e i m p l ic a t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t p a r t ic u la r r e c o r d i n g w h e r e d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d it w a s ta k e n ? Page 91 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I n o n e – a c c o r d i n g t o h e r i t w a s s o m e w h e r e i n th e – it ’s a r e c o r d i n g , i t w a s n o t a te le c o m , b u t s h e r e c o r d e d w h i le t h e y w e r e s i t ti n g , y o u k n o w s h e h i d t h e r e c o r d e r s o m e h o w a s t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g s h e r e c o r d e d t h e w h o l e c o n v e r s a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a ju s t t o b e c le a r h o w w e r e t h e s e i n d iv i d u a l s i m p l ic a te d i n t h e r e c o r d i n g , b e c a u s e I u n d e r s to o d y o u t o s a y t h e C E O a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d b e e n i m p li c a t e d a s h a v i n g g iv e n i n s tr u c ti o n s i n r e la t io n to th e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s , h o w w e r e th e s e o th e r i n d i v i d u a ls i m p li c a t e d o n th e r e c o r d . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y, o n t h is r e c o r d i n g , m a y b e it ’s o n e th i n g th a t I d i d n o t r e a ll y m e n ti o n , I o m i tt e d , o n t h i s r e c o r d in g C h a ir a s M r v a n W y k w a s e x p la i n i n g t o M s Tl a ts a n a y o u k n o w a s to w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e - t o g e t p a id y o u n o w o n a ll th e m o n i e s , h e s c r i b b l e d o n a p a r ti c u la r, o n a d o c u m e n t he scribbled the names, b e c a u s e a t s o m e s t a g e h e s a id I d o n ’ t h a v e t o m e n ti o n n a m e s , b u t i f y o u l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t I a m a c t u a ll y a b o u t t o t a lk a b o u t a n d y o u lis t e n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g y o u w o u l d r e a li s e th a t i t ’s th e v e r y s a m e d o c u m e n t t h a t a s h e w a s t a lk in g h e w a s s c r i b b li n g . H e m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e s a n d t h e ti t le s t o s a y a l l o f t h e m th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e p a i d , 20 in a c t u a l f a c t t h e r e w a s a b i t o f a d is a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n h e r M s Tl a ts a n a i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e a m o u n t s to b e p a i d t o t h e s e i n d iv id u a ls . O n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r r e c o r d i n g h e m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r s t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o g e t 2 0 / .2 0 a n d Ms T l a t s a n a o b je c t e d t o th a t t o s a y b u t in it i a l ly y o u s a i d i t ’s 1 0 , y o u ’ r e c h a n g i n g fr o m ti m e t o ti m e , y o u k n o w i n t e r m s o f h o w m u c h th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e p a id . Page 92 of 196 B u t a ll o f i t 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a I d o a p o lo g is e fo r in t e r r u p t i n g . C h a ir w e h a v e b e e n t o ld t h a t th e r e is a n e e d f o r s o m e t e c h n ic a l m a t t e r t o b e a t te n d e d t o , I w o n d e r if a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t m i g h t b e p o s s ib l e , p a r t ic u l a r ly i f i t r e la t e s to t h e r e c o r d in g , w e n e e d t o g e t t h a t r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y I w i ll t a k e a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l b e t o l d a s s o o n a s th e te c h n ic a l p r o b le m h a s b e e n s o r te d o u t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . 10 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r N g w e n y a w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h h o w p r e c i s e ly th e p e r s o n s r e f e r r e d t o o n t h e r e c o r d i n g w e r e i m p li c a t e d in t h e d e a li n g s b e t w e e n th e N o r th W e s t a n d S o u t h A f r ic a n E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a a n d a s I h a v e it j u s t b e f o r e th e b r e a k y o u w e r e d e t a i li n g h o w t h e r e h a d b e e n s o m e d is c u s s i o n o f t h e a m o u n ts th a t w e r e t o b e p a i d t o 20 t h e s e in d i v i d u a ls , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So was your understanding that they were i m p l ic a t e d i n s o f a r a s t h e y h a d b e e n r e c ip ie n ts o f f u n d s o u t o f m o n ie s t h a t h a d b e e n p a i d to K o r e n e k a , w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . Page 93 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: M a y I j u s t t a k e y o u b a c k a l i t tl e b i t . T h e m e e ti n g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e o w n e r o f K o r e n e k e o n t h a t S a t u r d a y w h a t d id it r e v e a l a s t h e p u r p o s e f o r h e r w a n ti n g y o u to g iv e y o u a ll t h i s in f o r m a ti o n ? W a s th e p o s it i o n t h a t s h e w a s c o m p l a i n i n g th a t t h e r e w e r e a t t e m p ts t o g e t r i d o f h e r b u s i n e s s a n d b r i n g i n s o m e b o d y e l s e , is t h a t w h a t p r o m p te d h e r to w a n t t o a p p r o a c h y o u ? O r d id s h e s a y i t w a s s i m p l y a c o n c e r n th a t m a y b e m o n e y t h a t s h o u l d b e – s h o u l d s t a y w i t h h e r b u s i n e s s w a s b e in g p a i d o u t b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e th e s e o th e r p e o p le that needed to be paid and she had had enough of it or what had 10 p r o m p te d th is ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I t h i n k f ir s tl y C h a i r th e f a c t th a t M r Va n W y k w a n te d t o t a k e h e r o u t o f th e b u s i n e s s r e p l a c e h e r c o m p a n y a n d m o n e y w a s a c tu a lly s p e n t. T h e r e w e r e th e s e i ll ic i t tr a n s a c ti o n s y o u k n o w f r o m h e r a c c o u n t w h e r e m o n e y w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o n u m e r o u s a c c o u n ts th e R 3 1 m i ll i o n . To a c e r ta i n e x te n t I th i n k s h e c o u l d n o t r e a ll y a c c o u n t f o r t h e R 3 1 m i lli o n b e c a u s e o f – s h e w a s n o t d ir e c t ly i n v o l v e d i n t h e d i s b u r s e m e n t o f t h a t R 3 1 m i ll io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t it c a m e in t o th e a c c o u n t o f h e r c o m p a n y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t c a m e in t o h e r a c c o u n t y e s . I t 20 c a m e in t o h e r a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e o n e w h o d is p e n s e d i t , is it n o t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I a m g e t t in g t h e r e C h a ir. W h a t a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d t h i s Mr D a v id K a li s i li r a w h o w a s t h e a c c o u n ta n t a c c o r d i n g to h e r b a s e d o n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n o f M r Va n W y k b e c a u s e o f Page 94 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 in it i a l ly l e t m e m e n t io n th is . Th e y h a d a n a c c o u n t w i t h t h e FN B b r a n c h a n d s h e m e t h a t s h e w a s to l d b y M r Va n W y k to o p e n t h a t a c c o u n t in t h e fir s t p l a c e . S h e h a d to g iv e h e r a c c o u n t c r e d e n t ia ls th e p i n s a n d w h a ts o e v e r to M r K a li s i lir a s o s h e – s o h e c a n o p e r a te a n d d is p e r s e t h e f u n d s w h ic h e v e r w a y y e s . S o s h e a c tu a l ly v o l u n ta r i ly CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B a s e d o n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR 10 TIMOTHY NHLANHLA N G W E N YA : Yo u know handed th a t in f o r m a ti o n t o M r K a l is i lir a w h o w a s r e s p o n s i b le t o h a n d l e t h e f u n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a ll C h a ir. S o w e w e r e d e a li n g w it h h o w t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e i m p li c a t e d t h a t w e r e r e f e r e n c e d o n th e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g a n d a s I h a v e i t y o u r e l a y e d th a t t o t h e C E O a n d t h e G M o f le g a l i n th a t m e e ti n g o n t h e M o n d a y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t M a ’a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 5 o n p a g e 8 . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e te s ti fy in g e a r li e r M r N g w e n y a t h a t y o u m a d e a n u n d e r t a k i n g t o Ms T l a ts a n a th a t s h e w o u l d b e p h o n e d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t s h e k n e w t h a t th is m a t t e r h a d b e e n t a k e n u p b y t h e h i g h e s t a u th o r i ty w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 95 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a s I h a v e i t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 y o u d e t a il t h e p r e c i s e c a ll t h a t y o u d id t h e n m a k e t o M s Tl a ts a n a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y a f te r e x p l a i n i n g o f c o u r s e a n d i n d ic a ti n g th a t t h e C O in fa c t I r e q u e s t e d o r a s k e d h i m t o p h o n e M s Tl a ts a n a a s a c o n fir m a t i o n th a t t h e m a t te r w a s b r o u g h t t o h i s a tt e n ti o n . H e a g r e e d t o t h a t a n d I d ia ll e d M s Tl a ts a n a ’s c o n t a c t b e c a u s e o f in t h e 10 r o o m a m o n g s t t h e th r e e o f u s I w a s t h e o n l y o n e w h o h a d h e r c o n t a c t a t t h a t ju n c t u r e . S o I d i a l l e d t h e n u m b e r o f M s T la t s a n a a n d I m a d e s o m e f o r m o f a n i n tr o d u c t io n t o s a y i t w a s m e a n d I a m w i t h t h e C E O a n d t h e G M le g a l r is k a n d c o m p l ia n c e a n d a s p r o m is e d t h e y w a n t t o t a l k t o h e r p e r t a in in g t h e is s u e . Th e y i n t r o d u c e d t h e m s e lv e s to h e r th e C E O M r I n a t h i N t s h a n g a a n d M s M ir r i a m M o c h o e le a n d t h e n M s T l a t s a n a ju s t l e t it g o . Yo u k n o w s h e w a s t a lk i n g a s i f y o u k n o w s h e h a d s o m e f o r m o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e p o u r e d o u t e v e r y th in g s h e w a n t e d t o s a y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s a n d y o u k n o w … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p e a ti n g t h e s a m e t h in g s th a t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : To s a y s h e h a s b e e n w i ll in g t o s p e a k to M r N ts h a n g a t o r e p o r t y o u k n o w w h a t M r Va n W y k w a s a c tu a lly d o i n g t o h e r a n d y o u k n o w M r Va n W y k w a s s o r t o f t a k in g h e r f o r g r a n t e d , p l a y in g w i t h h e r, w a n t i n g t o t a k e h e r c o m p a n y a n d t h in g s lik e t h a t . S h e – y o u k n o w s h e p o u r e d e v e r y th i n g o u t . S h e l e t i t o u t . B u t … Page 96 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a l o t o f i t w a s – h a d – w a s in t h e r e c o r d i n g a s you… M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ev e n t e lli n g h i m … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s in t h e r e c o r d in g a s y o u h a d l is t e n e d t o i t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , y e s i n a c t u a l f a c t th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n w a s r e c o r d e d a s w e ll M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Okay when she was pouring out? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t r e c o r d i n g w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : T h a t c o n v e r s a t io n w a s a c tu a lly recorded. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a b y w h o m ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : R e c o r d e d – [ la u g h i n g ] I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t [i n d is t in c t] . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : By M r Tl a ts a n a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . B u t y o u d i d o b t a i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h [l a u g h in g ] 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , y e s . I … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a w a s a t th is s ta g e r e c o r d i n g m a n y c o n v e r s a ti o n s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S h e w a s n o t p la y i n g w i t h f ir e s h e w a s r e c o r d i n g a l m o s t e v e r y t h i n g . W h e n y o u t a l k to h e r y o u k n o w that she was recording. Page 97 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d i d s u b s e q u e n tly o b t a in t h a t r e c o r d i n g fr o m h e r d id y o u n o t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o lu t e l y i n f a c t i t i s t w o recordings. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : Because during the course of t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n w e w e r e c u t o ff s o m e h o w a n d t h e C E O s t o o d u p a n d le f t t h e r o o m . I t a k e i t th a t h e w e n t t o t h e b a th r o o m . A n d I r e d ia ll e d t h e n u m b e r M s T la t s a n a a n d M s M o c h o e l e h a d to i n d i c a t e w h e r e t o s a y 10 h e y y o u k n o w w h a t w e w e r e c u t o u t a n d t h e C E O j u s t l e f t th e r o o m b u t h e w i ll b e b a c k h e w e n t t o t h e b a t h r o o m s . W h il e s h e w a s e x p l a i n i n g t h a t t h e C E O w a lk e d i n a n d t h e n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n w e n t o n a g a i n . A n d s h e g a v e i t a l l. T h e n w e w e r e d o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : L a t e r o n I r e q u e s te d t h o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s , t h e r e c o r d i n g s f r o m M s T la t s a n a a n d t h e n s h e f o r w a r d e d those to me via Whatsapp. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s tw o s e ts o f r e c o r d in g s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n i t is i n t w o p a r t s a n d it is r e c o r d e d a s I h a v e i t y o u g o t t h o s e fr o m h e r l a t e r. B u t i f y o u g o t o p a g e 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u w il l s e e t h a t t o w a r d s t h e b o t to m o f that page paragraph 28. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u t a lk a b o u t h o w s e r i o u s l y y o u t o o k th e Page 98 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a l le g a ti o n s a n d w h a t y o u th e n s a id to Mr N ts h a n g a i n t h e l ig h t o f w h a t h a d b e e n r e c o u n t e d t o y o u p r e v i o u s ly a n d o n t h e c a ll . W h a t d id y o u say to him? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C a n I s t e p b a c k a b it a n d g e t back. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : Th e d o c u m e n t t h a t I w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e s c r i b b le d d o c u m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d i f w e m a y ? C h a ir t h e r e 10 is a p h o t o c o p y o f th a t d o c u m e n t w h ic h a p p e a r s a s A n n e x u r e 1 s o it w i ll b e b e h in d Ta b 1 a t p a g e 3 2 . T h is is a ls o a d o c u m e n t C h a ir th a t w e p r o p o s e to d e a l w i th in M s T la t s a n a ’s e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e s h e w a s a c t u a ll y p r e s e n t l C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : As w e h a v e h e r e v i d e n c e a s t h is w a s b e i n g drawn out. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : By M r Va n W y k . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But it did come to Mr Ngwenya when those d o c u m e n ts w e r e f ir s t h a n d e d o v e r. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a b s o l u te ly y o u a r e c o r r e c t t h e r e is a n in t e r a c ti o n y o u h a v e w i t h M r N ts h a n g a . Page 99 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t t h e h a n d w r i t in g o n t h i s p a g e , is t h a t w h a t y o u w a n te d to g o t o ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u t e ly. T h a t is w h a t I w a n t t o r a is e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir a s I h a v e e x p la in e d th a t y o u k n o w I b r o u g h t th e e v i d e n c e , t h e r e c o r d i n g s a n d a ll th a t a n d I s p e c i f ic a l ly m e n t io n e d t h e p a r t s t h a t w a s a c t u a ll y r e l e v a n t to t h e m i n 10 t e r m s o f th e r e c o r d i n g . I a ls o p r o d u c e d t h i s d o c u m e n t s – t h is d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s s c r i b b l e d y o u k n o w a n d i t w a s – M s T la t s a n a a l le g e d t h a t i t w a s M r Va n W y k w h o w r o t e o n t h is d o c u m e n t . S o I p r o d u c e d th is d o c u m e n ts – th is d o c u m e n t a n d I s h o w e d i t t o th e C E O a n d th e G M le g a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o m e a g a in ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s h o w e d i t t o th e m a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h a t m e e ti n g y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . A n d t h e m e e t in g w a s o n M o n d a y ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s o n M o n d a y th e v e r y s a m e M o n d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fir s t M o n d a y a f te r t h e S a t u r d a y m e e ti n g w i t h Mr Tl a ts a n a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 100 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s C h a ir. S o w h e n I p r o d u c e d t h is d o c u m e n t t h e C E O l o o k e d a t i t a n d h e c o n f ir m e d t h e w r it i n g o n th is d o c u m e n t a s t h a t o f Mr Br ia n Va n W y k th e C M C o m m e r c i a l a n d t h e G M L e g a l M s M e r r i a m M o c h o e l e c o n c u r r e d w i t h t h i s – w i th M r N ts h a n g a t o s a y i n d e e d t h i s w a s th e h a n d w r i t in g o f Mr Va n W y k . Th e n i t w a s c l e a r d e f in i te ly t h a t M r Va n W y k w a s s o m e h o w i n v o lv e d i n th is w h o le t h i n g . I t h e n s a id t o o r r a th e r a d v is e d t h e C E O t o s a y b a s e d o n t h e n a t u r e o f t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s t h e a m o u n t i n v o lv e d a n d t h e f a c t t h a t M r B r ia n Va n Wyk was an employee of SA Express and the GM for that matter I mean 10 t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h is r e g a r d w a s t h e R 3 1 m i ll io n th a t came out of the SA Express account – I mean – account. I advised the C E b a s e d o n S e c t io n 3 4 o f T h e P R E C C A A c t 1 2 o f 2 0 0 4 t h a t s h e h a d a r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s a p e r s o n w h o is i n t h e p o s i t io n o f a u th o r i ty t o r e p o r t t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s to t h e a u t h o r i t ie s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s r M g w e n y a ju s t t o b e c le a r P R E C C A is t h e P r e v e n ti o n a n d C o m b a t ti n g o f C o r r u p t A c tiv i ti e s Ac t is th a t r i g h t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t M a ’a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u a d v i s e d h i m t o m a k e a r e p o r t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e o b li g a t io n s s e t o u t i n S e c t io n 3 4 o f t h a t A c t , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly, a b s o lu t e l y M a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n if y o u p i c k i t u p a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e Page 101 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 9 paragraph 28. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t M r N ts h a n g a t h e n s u g g e s te d y o u s h o u l d i n v e s t ig a t e t h e m a tt e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t M a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t o b e th e s c o p e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e th r e e f a c ts t h a t I h a d t o e s ta b lis h a n d a ll t h o s e w e r e a r o u n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f 10 K o r e n e k a a n d th e a l l e g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y Mr Tl a ts a n a p e r t a i n i n g t o M r Va n W y k . I h a d t o e s ta b lis h i f w h a t s h e a ll e g e d w a s tr u e o r n o t . I a ls o h a d to e s t a b li s h i f th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f K o r e n e k a w a s a s p e r I t h i n k t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w i th i n E x p r e s s a n d a ls o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f K o r e n e k a a s a f a c i li t y m a n a g e m e n t w a s a s a c c o r d i n g t o th e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r th W e s t g o v e r n m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t h i n k I a m c o r r e c t i n s a y in g that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : W h e n h e g a v e m e t h a t m a n d a t e it w a s n o t a w r it t e n m a n d a t e C h a ir i t w a s a v e r b a l . A s f a r a s th is i s c o n c e r n e d I th i n k y o u k n o w i n a n y c a s e w h e n y o u a r e g iv e n a m a n d a te it h a s to b e w r i t t e n e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u d e a li n g w i t h p e o p le y o u k n o w w h o a r e o n a h i g h e r l e v e l t h a n y o u r s e l f . S o th a t I d i d n o t g e t . B u t t h e n I r a is e d tw o i s s u e s w i th h i m to s a y m u c h a s y o u h a v e g iv e n m e t h i s Page 102 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s c o p e a n d t h e m a n d a te I w a n t to m a k e it c l e a r t o y o u t h a t 1. I c a n o n l y b e a b l e t o in v e s t i g a t e a ll t h e tr a n s g r e s s i o n s t h a t o c c u r r e d w i th i n S A E x p r e s s a n d t h a t s e c o n d ly 2 . I w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o in v e s ti g a t e a n y p a r ty th a t is o u ts i d e S A E x p r e s s b e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e a n y a u th o r it y to w a r d s t h o s e in d i v i d u a ls . A n d t h e fa c t t h a t p r o m i n e n t p e o p le w e r e i m p lic a t e d I m a y n o t b e a b l e t o e s t a b li s h t h e f a c ts a r o u n d t h a t i n c l u d in g t h e i m p li c a t io n o f t h e S A E x p r e s s b o a r d c h a ir p e r s o n . Th a t is w h a t I s a i d t o h i m in r e la t io n to th e 10 scope. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a I th e n h a v e y o u r a ff id a v i t t o b e p i c k e d u p a t p a g e 11 b e c a u s e s o m e o f w h a t i s s ti ll c o n t a in e d o n p a g e 1 0 y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h i n y o u r o r a l t e s t i m o n y. B u t w h a t y o u s a y a t p a g e 11 p a r a g r a p h 3 3 i s y o u t a l k a b o u t a s I h a v e i t a f t e r t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h a t m e e t in g w h a t y o u t h e n s ta r t e d t o d o s t il l o n t h a t s a m e M o n d a y t o f u r th e r i n v e s ti g a te t h e m a t te r. A n d M r N g w e n y a j u s t t o fr a m e t h e n e x t b it o f t h e e v i d e n c e . A s I h a v e i t y o u s ta r t w i t h t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u th e n g o a n d m a k e e n q u ir ie s o f t h e f in a n c e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e n y o u e n g a g e w i th p r o c u r e m e n t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o if w e c o u ld t a k e e a c h o f th o s e i n o r d e r. W h a t d o y o u s e e k to e s t a b li s h w it h th e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t f ir s t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t a t th e ti m e Page 103 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t w h i c h m e a n s e v e r y c o n tr a c t t h a t S A E x p r e s s w a s in v o lv e d i n t h e y w e r e k e p t a t le g a l , t h e fi le s w e r e k e p t a t l e g a l . S o a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g w i t h M s M o c h o e l e t h e G M L e g a l a n d t h e C E O . A f t e r w e li s te n e d t o t h e r e c o r d i n g s a n d y o u k n o w g iv i n g e v e r y t h i n g I w e n t t o th e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t a f te r b e i n g g iv e n t h e m a n d a t e to s a y – t o tr y a n d e s t a b li s h a s t o w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a c o n tr a c t i n p la c e i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e y o u k n o w. S o w h e n I g o t t o le g a l a t t h e ti m e t h e r e w a s a p e r s o n w h o w a s th e l e g a l a d v is o r b y t h e n a m e M s N a s i p h i M k e n t a n e . I w e n t a n d s p o k e t o h e r p e r t a in in g t h e is s u e a n d I 10 s a i d t o h e r I w a s a c t u a ll y l o o k i n g f o r t h e c o n t r a c t f o r th e N o r th W e s t w h ic h i n v o lv e d K o r e n e k a y o u k n o w. M s Mk e n t a n e s a i d t o m e N o r th W e s t I d o n o t h a v e t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t r e l a te s t o t h e N o r t h W e s t y o u k n o w g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s b u t o n e t h i n g t h a t I c a n t e l l y o u is t h a t I d r a f t e d th e c o n tr a c t i n r e l a ti o n to t h e g r o u n d h a n d l i n g s e r v i c e s i n t h e N o r t h W e s t in p a r tic u l a r t h e P i la n e s b e r g . H o w e v e r o n t h a t c o n tr a c t s h e d i d – s h e w a s n o t a w a r e a s to w h o w a s t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s to y o u k n o w p r o v i d e t h e s e r v ic e . S o s h e d r a f te d t h e c o n tr a c t a n d f o r w a r d e d it t o Mr B r ia n Va n W y k w i t h o u t a c o m p a n y n a m e a n d i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll w i th o u t t h e fi g u r e s a s t o h o w m u c h w a s y o u k n o w t o b e p a i d t o 20 t h is a c t u a ll y t o t h i s e n ti ty. A n d s h e in d ic a t e d s o m e h o w t o s a y i t w a s a n in s t r u c t i o n t h a t s h e r e c e iv e d e i th e r b y M r Va n W y k o r M s M o c h o e le a n d s h e s a i d t o m e s h e w il l f o r w a r d e v e r y t h in g t o m e . I t h e n l e f t h e r o ff ic e o n t h a t d a y. T h e n th e f o ll o w i n g m o r n in g I r e c a l l b e c a u s e o f y o u k n o w I w e n t th r o u g h t h a t e m a i l . I t h i n k i t w a s a r o u n d tw e n ty fiv e p a s t e i g h t t h a t w a s o n th e 2 8 t h s h e e m a il e d m e … Page 104 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: 28th of what month? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : J u n e , J u n e , s o r r y 2 8 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 1 5 s t il l? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 2 0 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Was it 2015 of 2016? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 2 0 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: 16. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 2 0 1 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e S a tu r d a y w h e n y o u s a w M s Tl a ts a n a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Tl a ts a n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : T l a ts a n a j a . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Was it June? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s J u n e t h e 2 4 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y s o i t i s s ti ll th e s a m e m o n th ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t i s s t il l t h e w e e k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : E x a c t ly y e s . S o i t is th e d a y a ft e r I m e t – i t w a s t h e 2 7 t h I m e t w i t h t h e C E a n d I m e t h e r th e n t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y o n t h e 2 8 t h J u n e t h e Tu e s d a y M s M k e n t a n e f o r w a r d e d m e t h e c o n tr a c t r e l a ti n g to th e d r a f t a c t u a l l y r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e r v ic e in P il a n e s b e r g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a I w o u ld l ik e u s t o g o t o t h a t e m a il Page 105 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 if w e m a y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll fi n d i t u n d e r A n n e x u r e 3 i t i s p a g e 3 6 , 36. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w i ll s e e a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e I t a k e i t t h e f o r w a r d i n g t h a t Ms M k e n ta n e e n g a g e d in t o g e t t h e d r a f t a g r e e m e n t t o y o u a s w e ll a s t h e e m a il t h a t i s c o n t a in e d l o w e r d o w n o n t h a t p a g e . A n d t h a t is a n e m a il a s I r e a d i t o f t h e 1 0 A p r il 2 0 1 5 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t M a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o i s i t fr o m a n d to ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Yo u m e a n t h e e m a il ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e e m a il i s fr o m M s M e r i a m M o c h o e l e t o t h e t h e n G M o r G e n e r a l M a n a g e r O p e r a ti o n s M r B r i a n – I m e a n M r D a v e A ll e n b y. A ls o t o Mr Br i a n Te b o g o Va n W y k w h o w a s t h e G M C o m m e r c ia l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c o p i e d … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t S A E x p r e s s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c o p i e d t o M s M k e n t a n e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A n d c o p i e d t o M s N a s i p h i Mkentane. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d in in r e l a ti o n t o th a t e m a il M r N g w e n y a i s w h a t M s M o c h o e l e s a y s t o f ir s t o f a l l M r Al l e n b y b e c a u s e s h e f ir s t o f a ll a s k s t h a t s o m e b o d y i n h is d e p a r t m e n t l o o k a t Page 106 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h e a t t a c h e d a g r e e m e n t t o e n s u r e i t i s s u ffic i e n t ly a n d a p p r o p r i a t e ly c a p tu r e s w h a t n e e d s t o b e c a p t u r e d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e s a y s i t i s s ti l l v e r y m u c h a d r a f t. W e w i ll s t il l n e e d t o p o l is h i t u p . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w e v e r i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f ti m e I s u g g e s t th a t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a l s o h a v e a l o o k a t i t a t t h is s ta g e . Th a t p e r s o n c a n w o r k w i t h N a s i p h i w h o w i ll b e r e s p o n s ib le f o r fi n a li s i n g t h e d r a f t . A n d 10 then what does she say at the bottom @brian – what do you understand t h e @ b r ia n to m e a n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : O h s h e w a s d ir e c t ly s p e a k in g t o M r Va n W y k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d w h a t d o e s s h e s a y t h e r e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I c a n s i m p ly r e a d t h i s p a r t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : “ @ B r i a n I g u e s s w e n e e d to a s k t h e p r o v in c e t o a d v is e u s a s t o w h o th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y is 20 g o i n g t o b e s o t h a t w e c a n m e e t w it h t h e m ju s t t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e r e i s a n u n d e r s t a n d in g o n w h a t is e x p e c te d . A s w e ll a s g o t h r o u g h t h e fi n a n c i a l a s p e c ts . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d t h e n i f w e c a n r e t u r n t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d w e a r e n o w a t p a g e 1 2 t h e to p p a r a g r a p h t h e r e 3 5 . Yo u d e a l t h e r e Page 107 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w i t h y o u r i m p r e s s i o n o f t h e e m a i l. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t e ll u s w h a t y o u r i m p r e s s i o n w a s a t t h e ti m e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : My impression at the time e s p e c i a l ly p e r ta i n i n g t o t h a t e m a il is t h a t M s M o c h o e l e w a s w e ll a w a r e – l e t m e j u s t e x p l a i n t h is . M s M o c h o e l e a s a G M s h e w a s a ls o th e c h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B A C t h e B i d A d ju d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e , s h e w a s t h e c h a ir p e r s o n . 10 N o w th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t I g o t w a s th a t s h e h a d a k n o w l e d g e a lr e a d y a r o u n d in A p r il t h a t t h e r e w a s n o p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s fo ll o w e d b e c a u s e a s a m a t te r o f f a c t t h is w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e b r o u g h t t o t h e B A C b e c a u s e o f t h e f ig u r e s o n t h e c o n t r a c t . e x c e e d e d t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w h ic h i s R F Q s o i t w a s R F P. Th e y Th e r e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a ls . N o w a s t h e c h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B A C s h e k n e w a t th e t i m e th a t n o th in g w a s b r o u g h t t o h e r a t te n ti o n a n d y e t s h e c o n t in u e d y o u k n o w to e n te r t a in t h e i s s u e a n d f u r t h e r y o u k n o w a l lo w in g h e r d e p a r t m e n t t o d r a f t a c o n tr a c t y o u k n o w to t h a t e ff e c t k n o w i n g t h i s o r th a t th e r e w a s n o p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o ll o w e d a n d t h a t w a s a v i o l a ti o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a a t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 o n th e s a m e page you then talk about your next step as I have it and the sequence w a s t o g o t o t h e f in a n c e d e p a r t m e n t . W h a t d i d y o u w a n t to e s t a b li s h t h e r e a n d w h a t d i d y o u e s t a b lis h ? M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Okay remember there were – I m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e p a y m e n ts m a d e to th e a m o u n t o f R 3 1 Page 108 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 m il li o n . S o a lr e a d y a t th a t j u n c t u r e I h a d e s t a b li s h e d t h a t w i t h l e g a l t h e r e w a s n o fi l e o r a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s th e r e . M y n e x t s te p w a s to g o t o t h e f in a n c e d e p a r t m e n t s o a s to e s t a b li s h a s t o h o w w a s t h is m o n e y p a i d t o K o r e n e k e a n d t h a t m u c h a s w e ll . S o I w e n t t o t h e f in a n c e d e p a r t m e n t a n d I i n te r v i e w e d th e s u p e r v i s o r t h e r e b y t h e n a m e o f M s B u s is iw e M a v u s o . M s B u s is i w e M a v u s o c o n fir m e d t o m e th a t y e s in d e e d t h e r e w e r e p a y m e n ts th a t w e r e m a d e t o t h e – to th a t R 3 1 m il li o n a n d th a t th e r e w e r e i n v o ic e s s u b mi t t e d t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d id y o u s a y w a s h e r p o s i ti o n ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : She was the supervisor at fi n a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e – s h e is s u p e r v is i n g t h e creditors clerks. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : A n d a ll t h a t . Ye s . T h e p a y m e n t processes. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s t u ff. M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : 20 T h e p a y m e n ts a r e p r o c e s s e d a n d a l l t h a t a n d t h e y g o to tr e a s u r y. S o n o w s h e s a i d t o m e s h e w a s g iv e n t h e i n v o ic e s a n d t h e e x p e n s e a u t h o r i s a t io n . N o w th e in v o ic e s w e r e K o r e n e k e i n v o ic e s c l a i m i n g y o u k n o w p a y m e n ts fr o m S A E x p r e s s a n d a ls o t h e r e w e r e e x p e n s e a u th o r is a ti o n . E x p e n s e a u t h o r is a t i o n i t is an internal documents – SA Express internal document where when t h e r e i s m o n e y t o b e s p e n t y o u k n o w p a y m e n t s o r w h a ts o e v e r y o u k n o w Page 109 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c e r t a i n i n d iv id u a l w h o a r e d e s ig n a te d t o s i g n a s p e r th e D O A , D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty C h a ir i n te r ms o f t h e a m o u n ts t h a t a r e r e fl e c t e d o n t h a t d o c u m e n t t h e y w o u l d s i g n t h a t d o c u m e n t . S o in t h a t r e g a r d M s B u s is iw e p r o d u c e d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . I t w a s f o u r i n v o ic e s a n d fo u r e x p e n s e a u t h o r i s a t io n s w h i c h w e r e a p p r o v e d b y M r Va n W y k y o u k n o w a n d Mr I n a ti N ts h a n g a t h e C E O a ls o e n d o r s e d y o u k n o w h e a p p e n d e d h is s i g n a t u r e s o r t o f a p p r o v e t h e s e w h a t y o u c a ll – t h e s e p a y m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a w e w il l g o t o t h o s e p a y m e n ts in d e t a i l . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y t o t a l t h e R 3 1 m il li o n t h a t y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d t o u n c o v e r th e s o r t o f tr a c k i n g o f t h e fu n d s o u t o f S A Express. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t b e fo r e w e g e t t o t h a t j u s t a t t h e c o n c lu s i o n of paragraph 36 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e a b l e to e s t a b li s h h o w K o r e n e k e c a m e o n t o th e S A P S s y s t e m o f S A E x p r e s s . H o w d id t h a t h a p p e n ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h i s w h e n I in t e r v ie w e d M s M a b u s o s h e s t a t e d t h a t s h e w a s v e r b a l l y i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e C F O Mr M a r k S h e l ly t h e t h e n C F O M r M a r k S h e l ly t o s a y s h e n e e d e d to l o a d t h e d e t a i ls o f K o r e n e k a o n o u r v e n d o r – y o u k n o w a s a v e n d e r o n t h e S A P S s y s te m a n d o n c e i n f o r m a t io n i s u p l o a d e d t h e r e i t is d e fi n it e ly f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f p a y m e n ts . Page 110 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o w t h is a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d o n t h e 5 M a y. N o w Mr C h a ir o n th e – o n e o f t h e i n v o ic e s a n d e x p e n s e o f y o u w o u l d s e e th a t w a s p r e p a r e d d a y b e f o r e fo r p a y m e n t a n d o n t h e 5 t h M r M a r k S h e ll y i n s tr u c te d h e r t o s a y lo a d o n t h e s y s te m . S h e d id e x a c tl y th a t a n d t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t i n t h is – o n t h e b u n d le t h a t g iv e s a n i n d ic a ti o n t o s a y t h i s w a s a c t u a l ly d o n e o n t h e 5 M a y w h e r e K o r e n e k a ’s d e ta ils w e r e u p l o a d e d o n S A P. T h e f o l lo w in g d a y 8 . 5 m i ll i o n w a s t r a n s f e r r e d fr o m S A E x p r e s s a c c o u n t i n to t h e K o r e n e k a a c c o u n t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r N g w e n y a w e w i ll c o m e t o y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n a s to w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a b a s is f o r t h a t p a y m e n t b u t before we get there if we may you do this engagement – or you have t h is e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e f i n a n c e d e p a r t m e n t o n t h e 2 8 J u n e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u o n ly g o to t h e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a f e w d a y s a f te r th a t b u t w h a t I w o u ld li k e t o d o in t h e m id d l e is ju s t t a l k a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 J u ly b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e c e r t a in p la n s i n a n t ic i p a ti o n i n r e l a ti o n t o M r Va n W y k a n d t h e n M r Va n W y k t o o k c e r ta in s t e p s i n s o fa r a s h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th S A E x p r e s s is c o n c e r n e d . C a n 20 y o u t e ll u s w h a t t h a t is ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . O n t h i s i n s ta n c e w e h a d a plan. I m u s t i n d ic a te C h a ir t h a t I c o u l d h a r d ly r e c a ll t h e n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s t h a t w e h a d b e t w e e n m y s e l f , Mr I n a t h i N ts h a g a a n d M s Merriam Mochoele. N o w t h e r e w a s a p l a n o n th e d a y – th e r e w a s a d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g o n t h a t d a y a g a i n s t a s u b o r d i n a t e o f M r B r i a n Va n Page 111 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 W y k a n d o f c o u r s e I g a v e – I t e s ti f ie d o n t h a t d a y. B u t th e p l a n w a s t h a t w e n e e d e d t o s u s p e n d o r t h e c o m p a n y n e e d e d to s u s p e n d M r Br ia n Va n Wyk. S o w e h a d a p l a n i n p l a c e a n d t h e p la n w a s o n l y k n o w n t o m y s e l f , t h e t h e n e m p l o y e e r e l a t io n s s e n i o r s p e c i a l is t M s N o m f u s i D a k e n e a n d i t w a s a ls o k n o w n t o h e r b o s s t h e G M o f H C H u m a n C a p i t a l w h ic h is H R Ms K g a ti le N k a l a a n d o f c o u r s e th e C E O . N o w t h e p la n w a s th a t h e w o u l d b e s u s p e n d e d a n d I w o u ld c o n fi s c a t e h i s a c c e s s c a r d a n d – y o u k n o w – t h e l a p t o p a l l t h o s e g a d g e ts a n d th e r e f o r e w a lk h i m o u t e x c e p t f o r t h e c e ll p h o n e b e c a u s e h e n e e d e d s t il l to r e p o r t . 10 H e w a s s ti ll a n e m p l o y e e a n d I n e e d e d t o e s c o r t h i m o u t o f t h e p r e m is e s . T h e n w e p l a n n e d to s a y w e a r e g o i n g to e x e c u t e . N o w if m y m e m o r y s e r v i c e s m e w e l l b e c a u s e M s D a g e n i e w a s s i t ti n g i n t h a t a n d w e h a d p l o t te d i t t o s a y o n c e y o u a r e d o n e y o u g iv e m e a n in d i c a t io n . S o I c a n c o m e u p a n d w e c a n e x e c u t e a s p l a n n e d . I r e m e m b e r a t t h a t ti m e w h e n s h e – I t h i n k s h e s e n t m e a n S M S . I c a n n o t r e c a ll h o w s h e – s h e – b u t I t h i n k i t w a s a n S M S o r a W h a t s A p p . N o w – to s a y w e a r e r e a d y. W e c a n a c t i o n . I w e n t t o – t o the ACGM because she needed to be present and advised her to say we a r e r e a d y. W e c a n g o . 20 I w a l k e d w i th h e r t o M r Br ia n v a n W y k w h e r e t h e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g w a s a c t u a l ly t a k i n g p l a c e o f h is s u b o r d i n a te . W h e n I g o t th e r e a s w e w e r e w a lk i n g – y o u k n o w – a t t h i r d fl o o r b e c a u s e h e w a s b u s y a t t h ir d fl o o r. F r o m t h e s e c o n d f l o o r w e w e n t to t h e th ir d f l o o r. M s N k a l a s t a y e d b e h i n d . S h e s p o k e t o s o m e b o d y. I t h in k t h a t w a s d e li b e r a t e Mr C h a ir b e c a u s e I e n d e d u p Page 112 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w a lk in g i n to t h e o ffi c e a l o n e a n d a s w e w e r e ta lk i n g a n d a b o u t t o e x e c u te t h e p l a n I h e a r d M s N k a l a t a lk i n g to w a r d s t h e d o o r o f Mr van Wyk. S h e w a s ta lk in g t o s o m e b o d y w i t h i n – y o u k n o w – th e - t h e c o m p a n y a r o u n d t h e t h i r d fl o o r. I c o u ld h e a r h e r v o i c e a n d b e c a u s e o f M r B r i a n v a n W y k h o w h e w a s s e a t e d h e c o u l d s e e – y o u k n o w – in b e t w e e n th e g a p o f t h e d o o r a n d t h e o t h e r s i d e o f h is o ff ic e . N o w I s a w h i m l o o k i n g to w a r d s t h e d o o r a n d b a c k t o u s a n d I j u s t s a i d e x c u s e m e . H e s a id e x c u s e m e . T h a t w a s th e l a s t ti m e I s a w h i m . S o my v i e w … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he left the room? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e le f t – h e s a i d e x c u s e m e . CHAIRPERSON: And never returned? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o w t h e G M H C d id n o t e n t e r t h e r o o m . H e s to o d r ig h t a t t h e d o o r. H e lo o k e d t o w a r d s t h e d o o r a n d h e lo o k e d a t u s a n d h e s a i d g u y s e x c u s e m e . H e s t o o d u p a n d w e n t o u t o f t h e o ffi c e . T h a t w a s t h e l a s t ti m e I s a w h i m . So what it means M r v a n W y k d is a p p e a r e d fr o m th e p r e mi s e s . H e r a n a w a y li t e r a l ly r a n a w a y. H e w a s a d v i s e d a n d h o n e s tl y I c a n c e r ta i n ly b e t th e G M H C a d v is e d h i m a c c o r d i n g ly. 20 So he d is a p p e a r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a y o u d o n o t h a v e a n y d ir e c t k n o w l e d g e o f th a t a d v ic e b e e n g iv e n . D o y o u ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o m e a g a in ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t k n o w f o r a f a c t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. Page 113 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t th a t a d v ic e w a s g iv e n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I do not – I do not know for a fact. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I d o n o t k n o w f o r a fa c t , k n o w. I c a n n o t s a y th a t . I t i s j u s t th a t h e l o o k e d a t w h e r e s h e w a s s t a n d in g a n d h e s to o d u p . T h e n h e d i d n o t c o m e b a c k a n d s h e d id n o t c o m e b a c k to o . S h e d i d n o t c o m e b a c k to o . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e w a s s u p p o s e d to g o in t o t h e r o o m w i th y o u ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W i t h m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r p u r p o s e s o f e x e c u t i o n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e n c e m y a s s u m p t io n is t h a t s h e is t h e p e r s o n t h a t g a v e t h e i n fo r m a ti o n to M r v a n W y k . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u s e e h e r a g a i n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . She remained in the c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u c o n fr o n t h e r ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y w h a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I d i d n o t e v e n c o n fr o n t h e r b e c a u s e w e w a i t e d t h e r e a n d w e - w e n o t ic e d t h a t h e w a s n o t c o m i n g b a c k . W e s to o d o u t t o tr y a n d lo o k a n d h e w a s g o n e . I d i d n o t e v e n c o n fr o n t h e r r e a l ly. I d i d n o t . T h a t w a s i t . T h a t is h o w i t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a y o u w e r e t h e r e a f t e r a s k e d t o w r it e u p c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M r v a n W y k . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 114 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s a f e w d a y s l a t e r a s I h a v e it . I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e to p a g e 1 3 . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t y o u r f ir s t p a r a g r a p h t h e r e 3 8 ta lk s a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d t o w r it e u p c h a r g e s . Wa s a n y d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s e v e r c o n d u c t e d in r e la t io n to M r v a n W y k ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o d is c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n w a s t a k e n a g a in s t M r B r i a n v a n W y k . H o w e v e r I w a s r e q u e s t e d b y th e G M L e g a l R i s k a n d C o m p l ia n c e M s M o c h o e l e to w r i te u p c h a r g e s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e tr a n s g r e s s i o n th a t Mr B r i a n v a n W y k h a s c o m m i t t e d f o r th e p u r p o s e o f – 10 y o u k n o w – d e a li n g w i th t h e m a t t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : D i s c i p l in i n g h i m . I d id e x a c tl y t h a t w i th th e a s s i s ta n c e o f t h e E m p l o y e r R e l a ti o n s S e n i o r S p e c i a l is t M s D a g e n ie . W e t a b le d th o s e c h a r g e s a n d la t e r o n I h a n d e d th e h a r d c o p y to M s M o c h o e l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a ls o - a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t – t h e n s u g g e s t e d t o M r N ts h a n g a t h a t i t w o u l d b e b e s t i f th e m a tt e r w a s t o b e h a n d e d o v e r to e x t e r n a l f o r e n s i c i n v e s ti g a t io n . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is r i g h t m a ’a m . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M Y R : W h e n d i d th a t – s o r r y – a n d w h a t w a s h is r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W h e n I in d i c a t e d t h a t - y o u k n o w - th e b e s t w a y w a s to h a n d t h i s o v e r t o a f o r e n s ic i n v e s t ig a t o r. Fi r s tl y t h e p u r p o s e w a s t h a t – y o u k n o w – I c o u ld s e e t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g d e e p e r t h a n I th o u g h t o n t h is w h o le th in g . Page 115 of 196 S o I w a n te d – 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 y o u k n o w – t h e w h o l e t h in g to b e e x p o s e d . M o r e o v e r i t w a s b e c o m i n g c l e a r e r t o m e th a t h e w a s d e f in i te ly i n v o lv e d - t h e C E O w a s d e f in i t e ly in v o lv e d . So I said you k n o w w h a t I r e c o m m e n d th a t y o u g iv e th e m a t t e r t o a f o r e n s i c in v e s t i g a t o r. H is r e s p o n s e to m e w a s t h a t n o i t is n o t a g o o d id e a b e c a u s e t h e f o r e n s i c i n v e s t i g a t o r w a s d e f in it e ly g o i n g t o g o – t o b l o w t h is w h o le t h i n g o u t o f p r o p o r t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s N g w e n y a y o u t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 3 9 o n p a g e 1 3 t a l k a b o u t y o u r e ff o r ts a t t h e P r o c u r e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t a n d a s I 10 u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n to y o u r e n d e a v o u r s w it h t h e P r o c u r e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t y o u w e r e a b le t o e s t a b li s h t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n n o n o t i fic a ti o n o f a t e n d e r o r o t h e r R F P p r o c e s s t h a t w a s e m b a r k e d u p o n p r i o r to t h e a w a r d o f t h e – w e ll – t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f th e a g r e e m e n t w i th K o r e n e k a . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t m a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 1 4 y o u w i ll s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 1 y o u e v e n w e n t s o f a r a s to c h e c k w h e t h e r th e r e w a s n o t s o m e s o r t o f d e v i a ti o n fr o m t h e o r d i n a r y t e n d e r p r o c e s s th a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n f o l lo w e d i n o r d e r to le g i ti m i s e o r g i v e s o m e l e g a l 20 u n d e r p i n n i n g t o t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h K o r e n e k a . W e r e y o u a b l e t o f in d a n y s u c h d e v i a ti o n a u th o r is a t i o n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o t a t a l l m a ’a m . I – I – C h a ir w h e n I w e n t th e r e – i n a c tu a l f a c t I i n t e r v ie w e d t w o p e o p l e . T h e f ir s t o n e i t w a s o n th e - I th in k – t h e 4 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Page 116 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I s p o k e to M r Z a k a r i a R a b o t a ta w h o i s t h e Pr o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r a s S A E x p r e s s a n d h e is s ti ll t h e r e . I in q u ir e d a b o u t t h e te n d e r is s u e d o r a d v e r t is e d p e r t a i n i n g – y o u k n o w – t h is g r o u n d h a n d li n g in – i n t h e N o r th W e s t . H e s a id h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f a n y – y o u k n o w – o f s u c h . H e lo o k e d o n h is s y s te m . H e d id n o t f i n d a n y th i n g n o d e v i a t i o n n o b u s in e s s c a s e . N o t h i n g i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . S o h e c o n f ir m e d t o m e t h a t t h e r e w a s n o th i n g . Th e n la t e r o n I w e n t to h is b o s s M s ( in d is ti n c t) w h o w a s th e D iv is io n a l M a n a g e r o f th e P r o c u r e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t . 10 I in t e r v ie w e d h e r p e r t a i n in g to t w o is s u e s . T h e f ir s t o n e w a s K o r e n e k a in r e la t io n t o th e p r o c u r e m e n t processes whether you – she was aware. W h e th e r s h e h a d a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n w i th in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t s p a c e th a t s h e c a n p r o v id e to m e – y o u k n o w – a s p r o o f t h a t s o m e h o w t h e p r o c e s s w a s a c tu a lly f o ll o w e d and she said she was not involved in – in any of such. P r o b a b ly h e r p r e d e c e s s o r w a s d e f in i te ly i n v o lv e d b e c a u s e o f n o w th e s e c o n d e le m e n t w a s t h is Va lo t e c k . R e m e m b e r I h a d a lr e a d y – I w a s a lr e a d y i n fo r m e d a b o u t Va l o te c k t a k i n g o v e r a n d I w a n te d t o k n o w a b o u t Va lo t e c k a n d I s a i d t o h e r o k a y t h e Va lo t e c k C o n tr a c t w h a t 20 happened. D o w e h a v e a c o n tr a c t f ir s t w i t h i n o u r p r o c u r e m e n t s p a c e ? She said SA Express does not – does not have a signed contract to that e ffe c t – Va lo t e c k / E x p r e s s . I r e m e m b e r a t t h a t j u n c t u r e t h e r e w a s a fi le a n d t h a t f il e s p o k e to t h e R F Q p r o c e s s w h e r e s h e r e q u e s te d t h e q u o t e s fr o m t h e t h r e e c o m p a n i e s . Page 117 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h r e e c o m p a n i e s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e g o t o t h a t d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e it m i g h t b e h e l p fu l j u s t to lo o k a t i t a s y o u … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R e f e r t o i t in y o u r e v i d e n c e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l fi n d i t a s A n n e x u r e 5 a n d i t i s a t p a g e 41 – 4-1. 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w t h is is – a s I u n d e r s t a n d it – w h a t y o u w e r e r e fe r r i n g to . I t is a l e t te r fr o m S A E x p r e s s a d d r e s s e d t o Va l o te c k F a c ili t ie s M a n a g e m e n t . Is th a t a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e le t t e r ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e d a t e o f t h e le t t e r ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 1 9 M a y 2 0 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s t h e h e a d i n g o f t h e l e tt e r ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : It is “ Pr o v is io n of Labour B r o k i n g S e r v i c e s / Th r e e Q u o t e s ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I j u s t p a u s e f o r a m o m e n t. I ta k e i t t h a t la b o u r b r o k i n g s e r v i c e s i s s o m e th i n g d i ff e r e n t t o g r o u n d h a n d li n g a t a ir p o r t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. Page 118 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h s a y s : “ T h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d th r e e q u o t e s y s te m i n w h i c h y o u p a r tic ip a t e d h a s r e fe r e n c e . Th is l e tt e r s e r v e s t o in f o r m y o u – t o i n fo r m t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n s e l e c t e d a s t h e p r e f e r r e d b id d e r. T h i s l e t te r o f a p p o i n t m e n t is e ff e c ti v e fr o m 1 9 M a y 2 0 1 6 . F u r th e r t o th is l e tt e r S A Ex p r e s s A ir w a y s a n d Va l o te c k F a c ili t ie s M a n a g e m e n t s h a l l e n te r in t o a S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t fo r th e d u r a ti o n o f th e c o n tr a c t a s 10 a g r e e a b l e to b y b o t h p a r ti e s . award shall be W e t r u s t t h a t t h is b e n e fi c i a l a n d f r u i tf u l t o b o t h parties.” S o d o I u n d e r s t a n d th a t th is w a s i n t h e Va l o te c k fil e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e w a s n o r e c o r d o f t h e Va lo t e c k / S A E x p r e s s C o n tr a c t i n t h e fil e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s n o t th e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly b e e n s h o w n th a t . I s that correct? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u w e r e n o t t o l d o f a n y p r o c e s s th a t w a s f o ll o w e d i n r e l a ti o n to g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s p r io r to t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h Va l o te c k . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o is t h is – is t h i s l e tt e r a b o u t l a b o u r b r o k i n g Page 119 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s e r v ic e s li t e r a l ly a ll t h a t y o u c o u l d fi n d i n r e l a ti o n t o Va l o t e c k in t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e P r o c u r e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s and of course the c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . T h e e m a i ls – y o u k n o w – r e q u e s ti n g q u o te s fr o m … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h r e e e n ti t ie s o f w h ic h t h e r e s p o n d e n t w a s o n ly – o r th e c o m p a n y th a t r e s p o n d e d w a s Va l o t e c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a ll a g a in j u s t t o b e a b s o l u t e ly c le a r r e l a t e d to labour broker services? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s b e c a u s e w h e n th e q u o te s w e r e r e q u e s t e d i t w a s a b o u t l a b o u r b r o k in g s e r v ic e s n o t g r o u n d h a n d l in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d th e n i f w e r e tu r n t o y o u r s t a te m e n t a t – a t le a s t y o u r a ffi d a v it – a t p a g e 1 5 . W e n o w c o m e t o t h e point at paragraph 45 because you have now been to Legal D e p a r t m e n t. Yo u h a v e b e e n t o Fi n a n c e D e p a r t m e n t . Yo u h a v e b e e n t o Procurement Department. Yo u h a v e in t e r v i e w e d a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e – a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e – a n d th e n a s I r e a d a t p a r a g r a p h 4 5 y o u p r e p a r e d a 20 P r e li m i n a r y In v e s ti g a t i o n R e p o r t . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e p o r t is c o n ta in e d a s a n a n n e x u r e t o y o u r b u n d l e . I d o n o t s u g g e s t w e g o t h e r e n o w b u t y o u t h e n to o k s te p s t o p r e s e n t t h e s e r e p o r ts t o t h e G M o f t h e L e g a l a n d th e C E O . I s t h a t correct? Page 120 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n y o u p r o v i d e d i t t o t h e C E O , M r N ts h a n g a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : As I r e c a ll – in fact on 6 O c t o b e r a f te r fi n a li s i n g o r c o m p i li n g th a t r e p o r t I t o o k it a n d s h o w e d it t o th e G M L e g a l t o s a y I a m d o n e w i t h t h e r e p o r t. T h is is it . I a m a b o u t to h a n d i t o v e r t o M r N ts h a n g a a n d I d i d e x a c t ly t h a t. I f I a m n o t m is t a k e n I h a n d e d o v e r th e d o c u m e n t n o t o n t h a t d a y. I t i s e i t h e r t h e f o ll o w i n g w e e k – I a m – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r 10 c le a r ly o n th a t b u t w h e n I g a v e t h a t r e p o r t t o h i m I t o l d h i m t h a t i t is – it is th e r e p o r t a n d i t is a – a P r e li m i n a r y I n v e s ti g a ti o n R e p o r t . I – I in d i c a t e d t o h i m a t t h e t i m e t o s a y b u t w e h a v e s u ffi c i e n t to a c tu a l ly c h a r g e M r v a n W y k – y o u k n o w. W e h a d s u ffic ie n t e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t h i m . S o w e c a n d e a l w it h that. H o w e v e r t h e r e a r e is s u e s t h a t – y o u k n o w – I c o u l d n o t s o r t o f r e a c h . T h e r e fo r e h e n c e i t r e m a in e d a P r e l i mi n a r y I n v e s ti g a ti o n R e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: I n t e r m s o f t h e ti m i n g w a s t h is a f t e r h e h a d d is a p p e a r e d – M r v a n W y k - o r w a s i t b e f o r e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 20 L o n g , lo n g , l o n g a f t e r. Long a ft e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : L o n g a f te r ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : L o n g a f t e r. Long after he d is a p p e a r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e tw o m o n th s , t h r e e m o n t h s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e d is a p p e a r e d … Page 121 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : In J u n e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I n J u ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : In J u ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 J u ly a s I h a v e i t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 1 J u ly h e d is a p p e a r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e a r e n o w o n 6 O c to b e r. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O c t o b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . N o w … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e s ti ll ta lk i n g a b o u t w h e t h e r t o c h a r g e h i m or not. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. I t w a s – i t w a s o n t h a t . O n e , I m u s t i n d ic a t e C h a ir t h a t a s I s a i d th a t I w a s r e s p o n s ib le t o r u n s e c u r i ty. I w a s t h e s o l e m e m b e r o f th e S e c u r i ty D e p a r t m e n t r e s p o n s i b l e fo r d i ffe r e n t a r e a s w it h in t h e s e c u r i ty s p a c e . I can break them … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Yo u k n o w – b r e a k i t d o w n t o a v i a ti o n s e c u r i ty. N o w a v i a ti o n s e c u r i ty d e a ls w i th t h e r e g u la t io n . N o w 20 t h e r e a r e p a r ts t h a t I w a s a c t u a l ly s u p p o s e d t o d e a l w i th w i t h i n t h e – t h e c i v i l a v i a ti o n – y o u k n o w – r e g u l a ti o n w h ic h is P a r t 1 0 8 t h a t d e a ls w i t h ( i n d is t in c t) s e c u r i ty. I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th a t a n d I w a s t h e d e s ig n a te d o ff ic e r fo r ( in d is ti n c t) s e c u r i ty w i th in t h e e n t i ty. N u m b e r t w o , I w a s a ls o responsible for a Part 109 to ensure that every single employee Page 122 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 in v o lv e d in t h e o p e r a t io n w a s tr a in e d – y o u k n o w – t h e s e c u r i ty tr a i n i n g w a s p r o v i d e d to t h o s e i n d iv i d u a ls . I t w a s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o e n s u r e t h a t e v e r y o n e w i t h i n t h e c o m p a n y - n o w C h a ir y o u m u s t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t m y o p e r a t io n w a s n o t li m i te d to O R Ta m b o . I w a s a c t u a l ly r e s p o n s i b l e e n ti r e ly f o r th e – y o u k n o w – o p e r a ti o n w i t h i n a n d o u ts i d e S o u t h A f r ic a . A l l t h o s e a ir p o r t s I w a s a c t u a l ly r e s p o n s i b l e s in g l e h a n d e d ly. N o w t h e r e w a s a l s o t h e P a r t 111 w h ic h is a v i a ti o n s e c u r it y – y o u k n o w – t h a t t a lk s t o t h e d e s i g n a t io n a s w e ll - y o u k n o w – a s a – a s 10 a S e c u r it y M a n a g e r. Yo u k n o w w h ic h s o m e h o w i s i n – is in li n e w i t h th e P a r t 1 2 1 i n t e r m s o f th e A O C . T h e A O C w h ic h i s t h e A ir li n e O p e r a t o r C e r t i fi c a t e . S o – y o u k n o w – I a m a l l o v e r t h e s h o w. C o r p o r a te S e c u r i ty t h a t I w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r. Now there was There was physical s e c u r i ty t h a t I w a s a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a n d – y o u k n o w – i n v e s ti g a t i o n s a s w e ll . S o ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I g u e s s y o u – I g u e s s y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t to s a y t h e r e w a s a lo t y o u h a d t o d o . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a s n o t a s k i n g y o u b e c a u s e I w a s th in k i n g y o u w e r e s l o w. I w a s j u s t tr y i n g … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o , n o I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o c l a r i fy C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I was wondering … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S o t h a t y o u c a n g e t t h e p i c t u r e . Page 123 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: I was wondering you would be talking about whether to charge somebody that has – that left about – what – four months p r e v i o u s ly … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W e l l … C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s i n w h ic h h e l e f t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Anyway yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a I d o – I d o t a k e i t th a t a f t e r – fr o m your 10 a ffi d a v i t – a f te r you d e l iv e r e d t h is P r e l i m in a r y Report to M r N ts h a n g a y o u r e v i d e n c e a t p a g e 1 5 i n d ic a t e s y o u r a is e d a g a i n w i t h h i m y o u r S e c ti o n 3 4 P R E C C A c o n c e r n a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d p a r a g r a p h 4 6 o n th a t p a g e h e t h e n to l d y o u t h a t h e w a n t e d y o u t o r e p o r t to h i m . C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . I n fa c t a t t h a t t i m e I w a s a lr e a d y r e p o r ti n g t o h i m d ir e c tly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I w a s a d ir e c t r e p o r t. S o b a s e d o n th e i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m th e ( i n d is ti n c t) A u t h o r i ty t o s a y a s a d e s i g n a t e d p e r s o n I h a v e to r e p o r t to t h e h ig h e s t o ff ic e i n th e – i n t h e c o m p a n y. 20 S o b a s e d o n t h a t I w a s a l r e a d y r e p o r ti n g t o h i m . So Ms Maleni and M s M o c h o e le w e r e r e a l ly o u t o f t h e p ic t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : him. S o I w a s d ir e c tl y r e p o r t in g t o N o w o n th a t d a y w h e n I s p o k e t o h i m o n t h a t m e e ti n g I – I r e i t e r a te d t h e S e c ti o n 3 4 to s a y y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li t y. Yo u n e e d t o Page 124 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e p o r t th is a n d t h a t w a s i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f M s M e r r ia m M o c h o e le w h o p e r h a p s h e r e t h e r e is n o t h i n g th a t c a n s u b s t a n t i a t e t h a t b u t j u s t f o r t h e in t e r e s t – y o u k n o w – o f th is e v id e n c e C h a ir. M s M o c h o e le c o n fir m e d to a Board Member – M r Tr e v o r A b r a h a m s – w h o c o n fr o n te d u s a f t e r b e fo r e h e a c tu a l ly o p e n e d a c a s e i n r e la t io n t o t h is – y o u k n o w – ( i n d i s t i n c t) . She c o n fir m e d th a t I a c t u a ll y a d v is e d t h e C E a b o u t th is s e c ti o n . S o j a th a t w a s - th a t w a s i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a y o u t h e n – s o l e t u s ju s t g e t 10 r ig h t i n ti m e . T h i s i n O c to b e r 2 0 1 6 ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s o n e a d d i ti o n y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e to t h e a ffi d a v it a n d in y o u r e v i d e n c e a b o u t a f u r th e r in t e r a c ti o n y o u h a d w i t h M r N ts h a n g a i n e a r ly 2 0 1 7 a b o u t t h e r e p o r t a n d w h a t c o n c e r n s h e r a is e d w i th y o u i n r e l a ti o n t o th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n S o u th A f r ic a n E x p r e s s a n d th e N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s C h a ir. I n f a c t I o m i t t e d p a r t o f th a t in f o r m a t io n b e c a u s e i t w a s q u i t e a l o t. I n t h is r e g a r d C h a ir a ft e r 20 w e h a v e d is c u s s e d t h is r e p o r t a n d I h a v e a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d t o h i m t o s a y w h a t th e r e a s o n w a s f o r m e to h a n d h i m t h e p r e l i m in a r y. explained that. I have T h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s n o t c o n c l u d e d e v e n th o u g h w e h a d e n o u g h t o d e a l w i t h M r v a n W y k w h e n I g a v e h i m t h a t r e p o r t. N o w I w a i te d a s I w a s b u s y n o t t h a t I s i t b a c k a n d l o o k a t w h a t h e w a s a c t u a lly d o i n g b u t – y o u k n o w – I t h o u g h t h e w o u l d a c t o n Page 125 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o f m y – y o u k n o w – o n – o n th e Pr e l i m i n a r y R e p o r t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d I a c tu a l ly r e a li s e d t h a t – y o u k n o w – h e w a s n o t r e a l ly a c t in g a n d C h a ir I m u s t in d i c a t e t h a t h e w a n t e d u s – y o u k n o w – t o d is c u s s t h e m a t t e r t h r o u g h o u t v e r b a lly s o . N o e m a il ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : To d is c u s s o r t o d i s c a r d ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : D is c u s s , d i s c u s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t o d is c u s s , o h . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . T h a t w e d i s c u s s w h a t e v e r is s u e t h e u p d a te s a n d a l l t h a t I m u s t n o t s e n d e m a ils . W e m u s t s i t a n d 10 t a lk a b o u t i t . N o w I h a n d e d th is r e p o r t t o h i m . Yo u k n o w – I d e li v e r e d – h a n d d e li v e r e d t o h i m . N o w I a m w a it in g a n d I s e e t h e c lo c k is ti c k i n g . N o a c t i o n is a c tu a lly t a k e n . N o w – y o u k n o w – a t th a t ti m e I f i g u r e d o u t t o s a y – y o u k n o w – t h is m i g h t p l a c e m e i n a v e r y a w k w a r d p o s i ti o n i n t h a t t h e r e w a s n o tr a i l – y o u k n o w – p a p e r tr a i l o r e m a i ls s h o w in g t h a t t h e r e w a s a n in t e r a c ti o n – y o u k n o w – b e t w e e n m e , h i m – y o u k n o w – i n r e la t io n t o t h is . I th e r e fo r e d e c i d e d o n th e v e r y s a m e m o n t h t o e m a i l th e v e r y s a m e r e p o r t t o o n e o f – o r a t th e t i m e I w a s n o t r e a l ly a w a r e . I e m a il e d 20 t o – to h i m . O n 8 N o v e m b e r a l a d y w h o w a s w o r k in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : S ti ll 2 0 1 6 h e y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S ti l l 2 0 1 6 y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e v e r y s a m e m o n th C h a ir. T h e fo ll o w i n g m o n th o n 8 N o v e m b e r a ft e r t h e 3 1 s t a f t e r I f o r w a r d e d . I Page 126 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m a l a d y w h o w a s a c o m m u n i c a t io n s p e c i a lis t – s h e – s h e s t il l is w i th i n t h e c o m p a n y. She said to me I am sorry I am not in t e r fe r i n g w i th y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n w h a ts o e v e r b u t I c a n s e e t h a t y o u h a v e s e n t a r e p o r t o n to th is e m a i l – y o u k n o w – w h ic h b e l o n g s to M r N ts h a n g a b u t t h is e m a i l is a l s o u s e d b y t h e C o m m u n ic a ti o n D e p a r t m e n t – y o u k n o w – to c o m m u n ic a te w h a t e v e r – y o u k n o w – t h a t is r e c e iv e d f r o m M r N ts h a n g a . T h e r e f o r e – y o u k n o w – w e h a v e a c c e s s to t h is r e p o r t . H o w e v e r I h a v e d e l e te d i t . I c a n s w e a r - y o u k n o w - I a m n o t p r iv y t o 10 t h e c o n t e n t. T h e r e f o r e s e n t t h is e m a il d ir e c tly to t h e – I m e a n s e n d t h is r e p o r t d ir e c tly to t h is e m a il . S h e g a v e m e t h e e m a il w h i c h w a s th e correct one. I therefore … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r M r N t s h a n g a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : For Mr Ntshanga yes. I th e n s e n t th a t r e p o r t t o M r N ts h a n g a . I m u s t i n d ic a te t h a t Mr N ts h a n g a h a d four email addresses in a ti n ts h a n g a @ fly e x p r e s s . within SA Express. There T h e r e w a s in ts h a n g a @ fl y e x p r e s s . was There w a s n ts h a n g a @ fl y e x p r e s s . T h e r e w a s i n a t i. n ts h a n g a @ fl y e x p r e s s . S o f o u r e m a il a d d r e s s e s . S o s h e d ir e c te d m e a s t o w h ic h o n e 20 I s h o u ld u s e . I t h e r e f o r e s e n t t h a t r e p o r t t o – t o t h a t e m a il ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r N g w e n y a t h a t is a t t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 6 - a s I have it? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : That – that was – that was 8 N o v e m b e r. Page 127 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o v e m b e r ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , 2 0 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u h a v e a n in t e r a c ti o n w i th h i m i n e a r ly 2 0 1 7 . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t th e r e p o r t a n d h e s a y s – a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e – h e h a s a c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e r e la t io n s h ip b e tw e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d th e N o r t h W e s t . C a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 10 Ye s . In f a c t p r i o r to t h a t a f te r s e n d i n g t h a t r e p o r t I th in k o n 1 2 D e c e m b e r th e G M H C - a n d I th in k I o m i tt e d that in f o r m a t io n on t h is – f o l lo w e d up pertaining the in v e s t i g a t io n w h e r e s h e a s k e d m e a s t o h o w fa r a r e y o u w i t h th e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d I s a i d t o h e r a s fa r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d I c o m p le t e d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d I s in c e d e li v e r e d t h e r e p o r t to t h e C E O w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d y o u c a n to u c h b a s e w it h h i m t o e s t a b li s h t h e f a c ts a n d I g u e s s s h e w e n t b a c k t o h i m b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t c o m e b a c k to me. CHAIRPERSON: But was the report not that you had sent to M r N ts h a n g a … 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is e x a c t ly th e o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e l i m i n a r y R e p o r t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Th a t i s – t h a t i s e x a c tl y th e o n e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l t h a t – w h a t is c o n f u s in g m e i s t h a t y o u a r e s a y in g y o u h a v e c o m p le t e d t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n … Page 128 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u h a v e o n ly p r e p a r e d a te m p o r a r y … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r Pr e li m i n a r y R e p o r t. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A s I h a v e s t a te d C h a ir t o s a y w e h a d g r o u n d s to d e a l w i th M r v a n W y k … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W h o w a s th e s u b j e c t – y o u k n o w – s u b je c t o f th e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s t h e m a t te r. N o w i n th a t r e g a r d M r v a n W y k p a r t – in a c t u a l fa c t I h a d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u h a d c o m p l e t e d t h a t p a r t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : It w a s c o m p l e t e d in t h a t r e g a r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B u t b e c a u s e o f t h e r e w e r e o t h e r parties … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I n v o lv e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t I c o u ld n o t – y o u k n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ex p o s e o r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 129 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , i n th a t r e g a r d t h e n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I fe lt t h a t i t w a s p r o p e r o f m e t o s u b m i t i t a s a p r e li m i n a r y in v e s t i g a t io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N LA N G W E N YA : B e c a u s e if I w a s t o s u b m it - s u b m i t i t a s a f i n a l in v e s ti g a t io n r e p o r t t h a t w o u ld c lo s e e v e r y th in g t h a t is l i m it e d t o t h is . S o y e t I w a n t e d c o n ti n u i t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s p r e li m i n a r y o n l y i n s o f a r a s t h e r e w e r e o th e r p e o p l e w h o y o u s t il l n e e d e d t o i n v e s ti g a te b u t in s o f a r a s Mr v a n W y k i s – was concerned it was completed? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s – i t w a s a f i n a l r e p o r t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. N o t th a t I a m in v e s t i g a t in g th o s e p a r t ie s b u t t h e th ir d p a r ty in v e s t i g a t in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y a lr i g h t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 20 As p e r t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n in the … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Pr e li m i n a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e t o h a v e n o fu r t h e r r o le in t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly b e c a u s e o f … Page 130 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f I m a y j u s t r e m i n d y o u M r N g w e n y a y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s – y o u f in d t h e m a t p a g e 5 0 – 5 - 0 – w h i c h i s u n d e r A n n e x u r e 6 a n d t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a r e c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u h a v e g i v e n I s u g g e s t b u t y o u w il l l e t m e k n o w i f y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t v ie w. A t p a g e 5 - 0 … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r 1 2 . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . O k a y, o k a y ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w il l s e e th e r e th a t t h e r e a r e t w o r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . Yo u s a y : “ E v e n t h o u g h M r B r i a n v a n W y k h a s r e s i g n e d th a t should not prevent SA Express to pursue the matter in c a s e o f li ti g a ti o n . ” And then the second is. “ T h e m a t te r m u s t b e h a n d e d o v e r t o a n e x t e r n a l f o r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a to r o r t h e S p e c i a l In v e s ti g a ti o n U n i t f o r f u r th e r in v e s t i g a t io n . ” 20 T h a t is c o n s is t e n t o r is i t n o t w i th y o u r p o in t in i ti a l ly w h e n y o u g o t t h e mandate? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a i d t o M r N ts h a n g a a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e – I c a n in v e s ti g a t e b u t m y s c o p e is l i m it e d … Page 131 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e o f m y li m i t e d a c c e s s t o p e o p l e e tc e t e r a a n d s o y o u r u n t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n t h e t e r m s t h a t w e h a v e d e s c r ib e d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Report – as I C u l m i n a te s w it h w h a t y o u t e r m a Pr e li m i n a r y u n d e r s ta n d your e v id e n c e – because your r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s s o m e b o d y e ls e n e e d s t o ta k e t h is f u r t h e r t o fi n a l is e . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t ju s t to c l a r if y d id – w a s y o u r s e n s e t h a t t h e y n e e d e d to t a k e i t f u r t h e r i n r e l a ti o n t o Mr v a n W y k o r t h e g r e a t e r a m b i t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e g r e a t e r a m b i t m a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u – y o u p r o c e e d ju s t t w o – t w o th i n g s . Yo u s a y i n – u n d e r y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s y o u s a y M r v a n W y k h a d 20 r e s ig n e d . W a s t h a t b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a f o r m a l r e s i g n a t io n le t t e r t h a t h e – h e p u t in o r w a s t h a t s i m p ly b e c a u s e y o u – y o u la b e l le d h is d is a p p e a r a n c e a n d n e v e r to r e t u r n a s r e s i g n a t io n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o C h a ir. Th e r e w a s a l e t t e r t h a t h e s u b m i t te d b u t a t t h a t ti m e I w a s n o t p r i v y t o t h e le t t e r. I h e a r d t h is fr o m t h e C E O h i ms e lf , M r N t s h a n g a . Page 132 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y a n d d i d y o u r e c a l l h o w s o o n a f te r h is d is a p p e a r a n c e h e p u t i n a le t t e r o f r e s i g n a ti o n , o r is s o m e t h i n g y o u d o n ’t k n o w ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : C h a ir a f t e r h e d is a p p e a r e d o n t h e 1 s t , o n t h e 6 t h t h e r e ’s a c o m m u n ic a ti o n p l a t f o r m w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s c a l l e d C o r p o r a te c o m m s , i t w a s p r o n o u n c e d th a t o r a n n o u n c e d o n t h e C o r p o r a te c o m m s t o s a y h e h a s b e e n s u s p e n d e d e ff e c t iv e th e 1 s t o f 10 J u l y. Ye t t h e 1 s t o f J u ly h e d is a p p e a r e d , p r o b a b l y y o u k n o w t h e y m e t s o m e w h e r e a n d h e w a s s u s p e n d e d . T h e n la t e r o n h e t o l d m e a b o u t h is r e s ig n a ti o n and that he was not r e a ll y you know s a t is fi e d . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr v a n W y k t o l d y o u ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e C E O , th e C E O to ld m e , Mr N ts h a n g a , t h a t y o u k n o w h e h a d r e s ig n e d a n d . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u n e v e r s a w t h e a c t u a l l e tt e r o f r e s i g n a t io n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I s a w i t l a te r o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u s a w i t l a te r o n . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: I s a w i t l a te r o n y e s . O h o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : It was dated August 2016, no s p e c i f ic d a te t o s a y o n th e 6 t h o r w h a t e v e r i t s a y s 2 0 1 6 - I mean August 2016. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y ju s t b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d Page 133 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s o m e t h i n g , th e c o l le a g u e o f y o u r s w it h w h o m y o u h a d g o n e t o s e e Mr v a n W y k o n th e d a y h e d i s a p p e a r e d , w h a t w a s t h e n a m e a g a in – w h a t was her name? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: Th e ? T h e p e r s o n w h o y o u h a d g o n e t o … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o th a t ’s n o t my c o l l e a g u e a c t u a lly, t h a t’s M r B r i a n v a n W y k ’s c o ll e a g u e s o i t w a s th e G M , y o u k n o w … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u – e m p l o y e d b y … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s t h e n a m e a g a in : M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M r s G a ti e le T l a ts a n a . Ye s n o w a s y o u c o n ti n u e d w i t h i n v e s ti g a ti o n a ll t h e s e m o n th s , d i d a n y t h i n g h a p p e n to h e r, d id a n y th in g h a p p e n o r w a s s h e a s k e d in a n y w a y t o a c c o u n t a s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h h e r in t e r m s o f t h e d e c is i o n fo r t h e t w o o f y o u t o e x e c u t e w h a t y o u n e e d e d to e x e c u te ? M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y I r e c a l l C h a ir a t s o m e s t a g e , b e c a u s e i t w a s n ’ t c le a r a t t h e t i m e w h e t h e r h e r e s i g n e d o r 20 w h a ts o e v e r, w a y a f te r, y o u k n o w, h e d i s a p p e a r e d a n d I k e p t a s k i n g th e C E O a n d a t s o m e s t a g e I a l s o a s k e d h e r e , b e c a u s e a t s o m e s ta t e , y o u k n o w t h e y w e r e s e n d in g m e fr o m p il la r t o p o s t to s a y w h e n a r e w e g o i n g to e x e c u t e t h e d is c i p l i n a r y t h a t w a s p r i o r t h e r e s i g n a ti o n a n d th e C E O s a id n o , M r s T l a ts a n a m u s t a c t io n t h a t a n d I s a i d b u t Mr s Tl a ts a n a , y o u k n o w, t h e y ’ r e e q u a ls a n d y o u a c t u a l ly t h e p e r s o n t h a t ’s Page 134 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s u p p o s e d to … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is a h i g h e r a u th o r i ty. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : J a a b s o lu t e l y y e s a n d to d is c i p l i n e , t h e y s a id n o s p e a k t o h e r a n d I w e n t t o h e r a n d s h e s e n t m e b a c k t o M r N ts h a n g a s o t h e r e w a s t h is g a m e t h a t w a s a c t u a l ly p la y e d a n d I r e c a ll a t s o m e s ta g e tr y in g t o fi n d M r N ts h a n g a , I t h in k i t w a s a r o u n d th e ti m e w h e n – j u s t a f t e r M r v a n W y k d is a p p e a r e d , I c a n n o t r e c a l l b u t I t h i n k a r o u n d th a t t i m e a n d I c o u l d n o t fi n d h i m a n d h e t o ld m e , t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t h e w a s n o t a r o u n d , h e d i d n o t p ic k u p a c tu a lly 10 m y c a l ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : M r N ts h a n g a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : M r N ts h a n g a y e s a n d y o u k n o w b e c a u s e I a lr e a d y s u s p e c t e d , I r e m e m b e r g o in g t o t h e ( i n d is t in c t) , t h e CCTV room within S A A a n d r e v ie w the footage backwards and I … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: A r o u n d t h e t i m e o f M r v a n W y k ’s d is a p p e a r a n c e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A f te r M r v a n W y k d is a p p e a r e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g t h a t w e s p o k e a b o u t w i th t h e C E a n d I w a s a c tu a lly f o l l o w in g u p a n d h e a v o id e d m y c a l ls a n d e v e n tu a l ly w h e n 20 I g o t h o l d o f h i m h e s a i d h e w a s g o n e , h e w a s n o t i n t h e p r e m is e s a t t h e m o m e n t – s o r r y o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y a n d I r e c a l l g o in g b a c k b e c a u s e I l a c k e d tr u s t o n h i m , h o n e s tl y a t t h a t j u n c tu r e a n d I w e n t t o t h e C C T V r o o m t o r e v i e w t h e f o o t a g e o n t h a t d a y ju s t t o c h e c k o n h is m o v e m e n t a n d I r e a li s e d a t th e ti m e w h e n I c a l l e d h i m h e w a s a c t u a ll y a t t h e o ff ic e o f th e G M H R o n t h a t d a y a n d h e w a s w i th i n t h e p r e m is e s , Page 135 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s o h e a c t u a l ly a v o id e d m y c a ll s . S o I g u e s s t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t I w a s a p a i n t o q u i te a n u m b e r o f p e o p le a r o u n d t h a t t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a if w e c a n g o to p a g e 1 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 16? 1 6 a n d I ’l l p i c k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 4 7 b u t j u s t b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e , y o u w e r e g o in g to te ll u s a b o u t t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n e a r ly 2 0 1 7 w i t h M r N t s h a n g a in r e la t io n t o h is c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e 10 r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d th e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t , c a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, s o r r y a b o u t t h a t . N o t a t a ll . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I h a d w i th h i m a t t h a t j u n c t u r e i t w a s a b o u t t h e d a m a g e c o n tr o l o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n S A Ex p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t . M r N ts h a n g a w a s n o t e v e n t a lk i n g a b o u t m y r e p o r t a n d r e c o m m e n d a t io n , in s t e a d w h a t h e w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w a s m e w r i ti n g o r r a t h e r g iv in g h i m a w r i te u p , y o u k n o w t h a t w o u ld s a y t h e r e la t io n s h i p b e t w e e n S A 20 E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h W e s t c a n s til l g o o n b e c a u s e w e a r e in c h a r g e , y o u k n o w, w e ’ r e t a k i n g c h a r g e o f a l l t h e o t h e r is s u e s , y o u k n o w, d r iv i n g m e t o r e c t i fy a ll t h e , y o u k n o w, th e w r o n g s t h a t a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d a n d I s a i d t o M r N ts h a n g a , M r N t s h a n g a th a t ’s n o t m y r e s p o n s ib il i ty, y o u a s t h e C E O y o u h a v e to w r i te t h a t a n d h a n d i t o v e r to t h e N o r t h W e s t , t h a t is not my r e s p o n s i b i li ty. My r e s p o n s i b il it y Page 136 of 196 is to p r o v id e th e 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r ts a s I a c t u a ll y in v e s ti g a te d t h e m a tt e r i n th is r e g a r d a n d y o u k n o w, w h e n I r e s p o n d e d l ik e t h a t , h e s a i d t o m e , y o u k n o w, t h e r e ’s o n e t h in g t h a t I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w i t h y o u , y o u ‘r e c o n d u c t i n g in v e s t i g a t io n s a s i f y o u ’r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g f o r K o r e n e k a a n d a ll I w a n t fr o m y o u i s a w r i t e u p a n d s t o p t e ll in g m e s t o r ie s a n d a ll t h a t a n d h e le f t m e , w e p a r te d w a y s a n d h e s a i d y o u m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u s u b m it t h e w r i t e u p a n d I w e n t b a c k to m y o ff ic e , I t h o u g h t a b o u t i t t o s a y, b u t w h a t is t h is , w h a t is it e x a c t ly th a t is e x p e c t e d o f m e b e c a u s e I ’v e p la y e d m y p a r t a n d a l l th a t . I t h e n fi g u r e d o u t t o s a y, y o u k n o w w h a t , h e r e , m a y b e 10 I w i ll l o s e m y j o b b u t a s fa r a s t h is w h o l e t h i n g is c o n c e r n e d , h e d o e s n ’ t h a v e a n y g r o u n d s , th e r e f o r e I ’ ll s ta n d m y g r o u n d . I’ m g o i n g to w r i t e a fi n a l in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r t w h ic h w il l b e s i m il a r to t h e p r e l i m in a r y in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r t , t h e d i ff e r e n c e w o u l d b e t h a t , y o u k n o w t h e p r e li m m o s t o f t h e s t u ff w e r e i n b u ll e t p o i n t f o r m a t . N o w I c h a n g e d t h a t to p a r a g r a p h s w h e r e I e l a b o r a t e d a s to h o w I w e n t a b o u t t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d o n t o p I w r o t e i t , fi n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e p o r t , w i t h th e e x a c t s a m e d a t e t h a t w a s o n t h e p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t , 6 O c t o b e r a n d t h e n I h a n d e d t h a t – I d i d n o t s i g n i t f o r a s i m p l e r e a s o n , t h a t w a s d e li b e r a t e b e c a u s e I h a d c o n f ir m e d t o h i m t h a t I c a n n o t c o m p i le a fi n a l i n v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r t 20 b e c a u s e o f – t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s n o t a c t u a ll y c o n c l u d e d , y o u k n o w, i n r e l a ti o n t o o t h e r p a r t i e s t h a t w e r e i n v o l v e d , I th e r e fo r e h a n d e d t h e e x a c t s a m e r e p o r t , a n d I t h in k it w a s a r o u n d F e b r u a r y a t t h e ti m e , I g a v e h i m t h a t r e p o r t w h i c h r e m i n d s m e o f s o m e th in g to s a y – th e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I a c t u a ll y o m i t te d C h a ir, p a r d o n m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. Page 137 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e w h o l e e v id e n c e – I ju s t w a n t t o in d ic a t e a p a r t t h a t w a s a ls o p l a y e d b y G M L e g a l R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir M r I n a t i N ts h a n g a t h e la s t ti m e I p la y e d t h e c l ip a n d p r o v i d e a n y p i e c e o f e v i d e n c e to h i m it w a s o n t h a t m e e t in g w h e n I s h o w e d t h e m t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d a ll t h a t b u t l a t e r o n th e G M L e g a l a n d C o m p li a n c e r e q u e s t e d t h a t e v i d e n c e t o s a y, I n e e d to g o t h r o u g h t h a t, a n d i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e l l, it w a s 10 a r o u n d O c t o b e r /N o v e m b e r I c a n n o t r e c a l l c le a r ly a s t o t h e s p e c i f ic d a t e . S h e r e q u e s t e d th a t fi le , I g a v e t h e f il e b e c a u s e I s e a l e d th a t fi l e a n d I j u s t n o t k e e p i t w it h in t h e p r e m is e s I k e p t i t s o m e w h e r e , w h e n s h e r e q u e s t e d , I s a i d , n o I ’ ll b r in g i t, y o u k n o w t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y t o y o u . I b r o u g h t t h e f il e t o h e r i t w a s i n a b r o w n e n v e l o p e a n d y o u k n o w, i t w a s p r o p e r ly s e a l e d w i th a s e ll o ta p e , a c l e a r s e l l o t a p e a n d t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s w e r e o u ts i d e th a t fi le t h a t b r o w n e n v e lo p e b u t t h e y w e r e i n a s m a ll e r e n v e l o p e a l s o s e a le d p r o p e r l y, y o u k n o w, p l a c e d o n t o p o f t h a t documentary evidence. I g a v e t h o s e t o h e r, s h e w e n t a n d l o o k e d a t t h a t , I t h i n k s h e k e p t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts f o r a l m o s t t w o w e e k s w i th h e r, 20 t h e n l a t e r o n s h e c a ll e d m e to s a y, n o I’ m d o n e y o u c a n c o m e p ic k u p t h o s e d o c u m e n ts a n d I w e n t a n d p ic k e d i t u p fr o m h e r s h e g a v e i t t o m e , th a t e n v e l o p e a n d I l e f t . W h e n I g o t t o m y o ffic e y o u k n o w, i n s t e a d o f p la c i n g t h i s i n a d r a w e r w h a ts o e v e r I c h e c k e d t o s a y o k a y is e v e r y t h i n g s t il l in ta c t. I c a n n o t s a y a n y th in g i n r e la t io n t o t h e d o c u m e n ts , I c a n n o t c o n f ir m if t h e r e w a s a n y d o c u m e n t t a k e n o u t o f Page 138 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h a t b u n d l e o f w h a ts o e v e r a n d I ’ m n o t i m p ly i n g t h a t s h e d i d t h a t , b u t t h e a u d io r e c o r d i n g w e r e n o t th e r e , th e y w e r e m i s s i n g . CHAIRPERSON: A ll o f i t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A ll o f t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g s w e r e n o t t h e r e , t h e y w e r e m is s in g . CHAIRPERSON: Had you kept copies? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : No, no I don’t know what was w i t h m e b u t I g u e s s I w a s c o m f o r t a b l e b e c a u s e I k n e w I c o u ld o b t a i n c o p i e s fr o m M s T la t s a n a . S o I w e n t b a c k to h e r a n d I s a i d , m a ’ a m a l l 10 y o u r r e c o r d i n g s a r e n o t p a r t o f t h i s n o w, y o u d id n o t g iv e b a c k s h e s a i d , n o I d id n ’t , o h I th o u g h t t h e y w e r e t h e r e , y o u k n o w a n d w h e n y o u s p e a k t o a p e r s o n y o u lo o k a t t h e m , t h e g e s t u r e s , t h e r e s p o n s e s , i f t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g s u s p ic io u s t o s a y t h e y k n o w t h a t th e y d i d n o t g iv e t h is , s h e s a i d , n o o k a y I ’l l l o o k a t m y h o u s e , j u s t li k e t h a t , I s a i d , n o o k a y fi n e a n d la t e r o n i n t h e w e e k s h e c a m e b a c k t o s a y n o Ti m I c o u l d n o t fi n d t h o s e r e c o r d i n g s , s o I h a d t o g o b a c k to M s Tl a ts a n a y o u k n o w t o r e q u e s t th e c o p y o f t h e r e c o r d i n g s a n d s h e p e r s o n a l ly b r o u g h t t h o s e r e c o r d i n g s t o o u r p r e m is e s , y o u k n o w s h e s t o o d a t th e v is i t o r s p a r k in g and she called me, I went, she gave me and she gave me more than 20 w h a t s h e g a v e m e in i ti a l ly, y o u k n o w b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e o t h e r c o n v e r s a ti o n s w i th o t h e r in d iv i d u a ls o n t h e r e , th a t ’s h o w I a c t u a ll y o b t a i n e d t h o s e r e c o r d in g s a g a i n . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t’s w h e n y o u f o u n d th e r e c o r d i n g o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n w h e n y o u , t h e C E O a n d … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . M R T I M O T H Y N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Page 139 of 196 N o , n o , n o , th o s e a r e 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 separate. CHAIRPERSON: N o t t h a t o n e o h o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : In a c tu a l f a c t th e r e c o r d i n g t h a t w e r e a d d e d i t w a s b e t w e e n th e H O D Mr B a il e y M a h la k o le n g , M s Tl a ts a n a o f w h ic h o n t h e i n i t i a l r e c o r d i n g s t h a t w a s n o t p a r t o f i t a n d s o m e o th e r r e c o r d i n g y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y b u t y o u g o t a ll th e o n e s th a t y o u h a d lo s t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d th e n y o u g o t m o r e a n d m o r e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And more yes. O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Mr Ngwenya, then at page 16 paragraph 47 y o u ta lk a b o u t th e n e x t tw o c o m p a n i e s i n t h is p r o g r e s s i o n o f s u c c e s s i v e c o m p a n i e s w h o a r e c o n tr a c te d t o p r o v i d e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s , t h e y a r e r e f e r r e d t o in p a r a g r a p h 4 7 a s M A M C O a n d PA M C O , I j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d l ik e t o g e t th o s e f u l l n a m e s … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: I w o n d e r, Ms H o f m e y r w h e th e r b e f o r e y o u g e t in t o t h a t s e c t i o n w h e t h e r i t w o u l d n ’ t b e u s e f u l t o k in d o f s u m u p w h a t w a s 20 w r o n g w i t h M s T la t s a n a ’s b u s in e s s d id t h e y p r o v i d e t h e s e r v ic e b u t w e r e p a i d m o r e t h a n th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e p a i d o r w e r e t h e y b e in g p a i d w h a t th e y w e r e e n t it l e d t o b u t s h e w a s r e q u ir e d t o g i v e m o n e y t o o th e r p e o p l e b u t i f n o t n o w th e n m a y b e l a te r o n , I th o u g h t i t m i g h t b e c o n v e n i e n t b e fo r e y o u m o v e i n t o a n o t h e r s e c ti o n , j u s t t o h a v e a p ic tu r e o f w h a t i t is t h a t w a s w r o n g . Page 140 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n i n r e la t io n t o t h e K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t , w h a t d i d y o u e s t a b li s h i n r e la t io n t o t h e s e r v ic e s t h a t w e r e b e i n g p r o v i d e d b y K o r e n e k a a t M a f ik e n g a n d P il a n s b e r g , d i d y o u e s t a b li s h t h a t t h e y w e r e p r o v i d i n g g r o u n d h a n d l in g . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I did. A n d d id y o u e s t a b li s h th a t t h e y c o n ti n u e d t o p r o v i d e t h o s e a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u m e t w i t h h e r i n J u n e 2 0 1 6 ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Correct. A n d d id y o u e s ta b l is h t h a t d e s p it e Va l o t e c k b e i n g a p p o in t e d to r e p la c e K o r e n e k a in t h e M a f ik e n g a ir p o r t th e y a c t u a ll y h a d n e v e r p r o v i d e d a n y s e r v ic e s t h e r e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . T h a n k y o u , t h e n i f w e j u s t m o v e to g e t t o t h e n u b o f t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n a s I h a v e it , a n d w e ’l l d o th a t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p a y m e n t s b u t a s I h a v e i t t h e r e w e r e a s e r i e s o f p a y m e n ts t o t a lli n g 3 1 m i ll io n t h a t w e r e r e c e iv e d , t h e r e – w e b r e a k t h e m d o w n in t o f o u r i n v o ic e s i n th e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e b u t th e s u m t o t a l a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ffi d a v i t is th a t w h a t w a s r e fl e c t e d o n t h e i n v o i c e s fo r e a c h o f th o s e p a y m e n ts w e r e n o t s e r v ic e s r e l a t e d t o t h e c o n t r a c t a t 20 is s u e b e t w e e n K o r e n e k a a n d S o u t h A fr i c a n E x p r e s s , i s th a t a fa ir summary? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A n d w e r e t h e r e e v e r in v o ic e s fr o m K o r e n e k a r e l a t e d o r m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e t o th e a c t u a l t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t had been concluded between Koreneka and South African Express? Page 141 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Nope. C h a ir m y s u g g e s t io n i s t h a t w e m a y b e g o n o w to th e K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t , j u s t s o w e c a n l o o k a t s o m e o f it ’s provisions. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w e ’l l c o m e b a c k to t h e s u c c e s s iv e parties. CHAIRPERSON: Th a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 L e t ’s d o t h a t a n d M r N g w e n y a i t ’s e ff e c tiv e ly t h r o u g h y o u t h a t w e ’r e g o in g t o l o o k a t t h e s e c l a u s e s b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t s u g g e s t in g a n d a s k i n g y o u t o g o t h r o u g h th e m t h a t e it h e r y o u w e r e in v o lv e d in concluding th e c o n tr a c t n o r that you have a legal b a c k g r o u n d a t a l l b u t it ’s u s e f u l f o r u s t o u n d e r s t a n d a t l e a s t w h a t o n it s t e r m s , t h e c o n tr a c t e n v i s a g e d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: S h e s a i d M r N t ja n g a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Oh I d o a p o l o g is e Mr Ngwenya, I do a p o lo g i s e . A lr i g h t w e ’l l fi n d t h e fir s t a g r e e m e n t C h a ir, u n d e r ta b 7 a n d commencing at page 52. N o w M r N g w e n y a t h i s a g r e e m e n t th a t w e ’r e lo o k in g a t , a t p a g e 5 2 , w h o is th is a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I t ’s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i ty S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t M a n a g e m e n t a n d S o u t h A f r i c a n E x p r e s s Ai r w a y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m g o i n g ju s t f o r r e f e r e n c e p u r p o s e s t o t a lk a b o u t t h is a s t h e m a i n a g r e e m e n t if I M a y, i t ’s t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t s e ts u p t h e r e la t io n s h ip a s I h a v e it b e tw e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h Page 142 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 W e s t G o v e r n m e n t in r e l a t i o n t o t h o s e tw o a ir p o r ts . I f w e th e n – I’ m g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k t o i t b u t j u s t t o o r i e n t a t e o u r s e lv e s , i f w e t h e n g o o v e r to p a g e 9 1 w h ic h i s u n d e r t a b 8 t h a t i s a n o t h e r a g r e e m e n t a n d w h o is t h a t b e t w e e n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S o u t h A f r ic a n E x p r e s s A i r w a y s a n d K o r e n e k a E v e n t M a n a g e r s – K o r e n e k a Tr a d in g a n d Pr o je c t s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I c a ll t h is t h e K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h a t ’s th e o n e t h a t S o u t h A fr i c a n E x p r e s s t h e n c o n c l u d e s w i th Koreneka. 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Correct. A n d w it h r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r t h a t ’s w h y y o u h a v e tr i- p a r t h e i d o r a tr i a n g u la r r e la t io n s h ip h e r e . T h e r e ’s a r e la t io n s h ip b e t w e e n S o u t h A f r ic a n E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t r e fl e c t e d i n t h e m a i n a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n a n a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n S o u th A fr ic a n E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a , is th a t a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d it ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Correct. T h a n k y o u , w h a t I ’ d th e n l ik e t o d o is g o t h r o u g h ju s t a f e w p r o v is io n s C h a ir o f 20 th e m a i n a g r e e m e n t w h ic h c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 5 2 , I ju s t , s o t h a t w e g e t a s e n s e o f w h a t t h is w a s e n v is a g e d t o c o v e r, a n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e I ’d l ik e t o s t a r t a t p a g e 5 9 , C h a ir w i t h r e s p e c t i t’s f a ir ly c r i t ic a l t h a t w e d o t h i s b e c a u s e t h e e v i d e n c e o v e r th e n e x t fe w d a y s is g o in g t o h a v e t o fi t in t o t h e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e s e a g r e e m e n ts s o i t ’s u s e fu l ju s t t o g o t h r o u g h t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t ’s f in e . Page 143 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e s ta r t a t p a g e 5 9 a n d i t’s c l a u s e 2 .1 t h e r e , w h a t t h i s m a i n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e N o r th W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d S A E x p r e s s p r o v i d e s i t th a t a t c l a u s e 2 . 1 , “ in r e s p o n s e t o th e r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a l f o r r e - in tr o d u c ti o n a a i r tr a n s p o r t s e r v ic e b e t w e e n O R Ta m b o A ir p o r t , Cape To w n I n t e r n a t io n a l A ir p o r t , of In t e r n a t io n a l P il a n s b e r g and M a f ik e n g A i r p o r t , d e fi n e d a s th e A ir p o r ts i s s u e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i ty S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t M a n a g e m e n t , t h e a ir li n e S A E x p r e s s r e s p o n d e d t o r e q u e s t f o r p r o p o s a l s f o r 10 t h e s u p p ly o f a ir li n e s e r v ic e s u b j e c t t o a s u b s i d y fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h ic h r e q u e s t fo r p r o p o s a l w a s d u ly a c c e p t e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il ” . T h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f p a r ts t h e r e th a t w e w i ll p ic k u p i n l a t e r e v i d e n c e C h a ir b u t a t l e a s t w h a t t h i s a g r e e m e n t i s r e c o r d i n g i s t h a t t h e r e w a s a p r o p o s a l a s I h a v e i t , t h e r e w a s a r e s p o n s e fr o m S A E x p r e s s w h o w o u l d p r o v i d e t h e a ir li n e s e r v i c e a n d t h a t w a s s u b j e c t to a s u b s i d y. If we then go over the page to page 60 we then at clause 4 get told what t h o s e a i r l in e s e r v ic e s a r e a n d a t 4 . 1 i t’s r e c o r d e d t h a t S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t h e r e b y a g r e e t h a t S A E x p r e s s s h a l l , w it h e ffe c t fr o m 20 t h e e ff e c t iv e d a t e c o m m e n c e t h e a ir li n e s e r v ic e o n t h e d e s i g n a t e d r o u t e t h a t ’s b e e n d e f i n e d a s r o u te s b e t w e e n O R Ta m b o , C a p e To w n a n d t h o s e t w o N o r t h W e s t A ir p o r ts , f o r a p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s c a l c u la t e d fr o m t h e e ffe c tiv e d a t e a n d t h e n a t 4 . 3 , “ a s a c o n t r i b u t i o n to w a r d s t h e c o s t s o f S A E x p r e s s i n p r o v i d in g t h e a ir l i n e s e r v i c e th e D e p a r t m e n t s h a l l g r a n t t o S A E x p r e s s Page 144 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h e s u b s i d y a s m o r e fu ll y d e s c r ib e d i n c l a u s e 6 h e r e o f a n d o n t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s a s m o r e f u lly s e t o u t i n th e agreement”, S o I ’ d lik e t o s u g g e s t w e n e x t g o t o t h a t c l a u s e 6 , i t ’s o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a g e 6 1 a n d u n d e r c l a u s e 6 . 1 is a n i m p o r t a n t c l a u s e b e c a u s e i t r e fl e c ts is t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t s h a l l p a y t o S A E x p r e s s t h e s u b s i d y a n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y t h e o p e r a t i o n a l c o s t s o f b o t h a i r p o r ts , a n n u a ll y i n a d v a n c e a s s ti p u l a t e d i n a n n e x A . N o w w e n e e d t o ju s t l o o k a t a f e w c la u s e s to u n p a c k th a t . Fir s t o f a l l t h is i s t h e fir s t ti m e w e ’v e 10 h e a r d a b o u t a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y in t h e c o u r s e o f t h is a g r e e m e n t, s o w e n e e d t o g o t o c la u s e 1 5 w h ic h is o n p a g e 7 3 t o f in d o u t w h o t h e management company or what th e management company is as e n v is a g e d i n th e a g r e e m e n t . S o i f w e g o t o c l a u s e 1 5 o n p a g e 7 3 , 1 5 . 1 provides, “The Department mandates SA Express to appoint a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y r e s p o n s i b l e fo r m a n a g i n g t h e o p e r a ti o n s a t P i la n s b e r g a n d M a fik e n g A ir p o r ts ” , A t 1 5 . 4 – w e l l l e t’s g o 1 5 . 2 f ir s t , “ T h e D e p a r t m e n t s h a ll b e l i a b l e fo r t h e p a y m e n t o f o p e r a ti o n a l 20 c o s ts o f t h e o p e r a t io n s o f t h e s a id m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y, 1 5 . 3 , t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y w i ll b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r o p e r a ti o n a l a n d o t h e r a d d i t i o n a l s e r v ic e s a s r e q u i r e d a n d a g r e e d w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d a ir l in e a n d 1 5 . 4 , S A E x p r e s s shall enter i n to a s e r v ic e level agreement with th e management company in terms of which the performance of the Page 145 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y w i ll b e m o n i t o r e d a n d e v a lu a t e d a n d 1 5 . 5 fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f d e v e l o p m e n t a n d s k i lls tr a n s fe r, a ) S A E x p r e s s s h a ll t r a in t h e e m p l o y e e s o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y a n d b ) to b e a b l e t o p e r fo r m t h e fu n c t io n s o f t h e s e r v ic e le v e l agreement referred to in the clause above”. S o C h a ir a t th is p o i n t i n t h e s tr u c tu r e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t, j u s t t o s u m m a r i s e is a s I r e a d t h e c l a u s e s w e ’v e g o t t h e D e p a r t m e n t a g r e e i n g t o p a y S A E x p r e s s a s u b s id y f o r f ly in g t h e r o u t e s a n d a ls o t o p a y a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y t h a t’s g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n t e d b y S A E x p r e s s in 10 r e l a ti o n t o t h e o p e r a t io n s a t t h e a i r p o r t a n d t h e r e w e r e a l s o to b e , o v e r t h e p a g e a t 6 2 – s o r r y I’v e g o n e b a c k to 6 1 s o a t 6 2 c la u s e 7 , I w o n ’ t r e a d th e w h o l e o f t h e c la u s e b u t t h a t ’s a c la u s e a b o u t q u a r te r ly r e p o r ts t h a t h a d t o b e p r o v i d e d b y S A E x p r e s s t o u p d a t e i t a n d s ig n i f ic a n t ly C h a ir, w e s h o u l d g o t o A n n e x u r e A a n d t h a t is a t p a g e 8 8 b e c a u s e C h a ir t h a t is t h e s u b s id y s tr u c t u r e th a t w e h a d a r e f e r e n c e to e a r l i e r i n t h e s u b s i d y c l a u s e . I s e e th a t t h is c o p y o f t h a t p a g e is n o t a l l th a t g o o d , I k n o w t h a t t h e r e ’s a b e tt e r o n e i n th e fil e o f Mr P h ir i w h o ’s c o m i n g t o m o r r o w b u t I ’ m f a ir ly f a m il ia r w it h t h e s e fi g u r e s s o I’l l d o m y b e s t ju s t t o i n d ic a te … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k w h a t c o u l d b e d o n e in d u e c o u r s e is to r e p l a c e i t w i t h a c le a r e r c o p y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d w e ’ll d o t h a t t h e n i t ’s i n th e fil e , I’l l m a k e a n o te a b o u t t h a t b u t t h e u p s h o t is t h a t i n te r ms o f t h i s s u b s i d y s tr u c t u r e , C h a ir a s th is – w e u n d e r s t a n d th is ta b l e y o u ’l l s e e a r e fe r e n c e i n th e to p l i n e u n d e r th e h e a d i n g , N o r th W e s t C o n c e s s i o n , Page 146 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h a t t h e r e ’s a P il a n s b e r g e n tr y a n d t h e n a f e w l in e s d o w n a M a f i k e n g e n tr y a n d t h e n t w o o r s o li n e s d o w n fr o m t h a t y o u h a v e t o ta l s u b s i d y, t h a t h a l f o f th is t a b l e is w h a t th e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t w a s g o in g to b e p a y in g t o S A E x p r e s s . T h e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h e ta b le y o u ’ ll s e e o n t h e le f t- h a n d s i d e i n th e f ir s t c o l u m n , t h e r e ’s a h e a d in g , M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y S u b s i d y, a n d s o th e a m o u n t s i n t h e s e c o n d h a l f a r e t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y s u b s id i e s . Th e s e a m o u n ts , C h a ir, a r e i n t h e m il li o n s s o w h a t y o u s e e i n th e fir s t y e a r, i f w e m o v e a lo n g t h e c o l u m n s is i n y e a r o n e , t h e t o ta l s u b s i d y t h a t ’s g o i n g t o b e p a i d t o S A E x p r e s s in 10 t h e f ir s t h a l f is 5 8 m i lli o n a n d a b i t a n d t h e a m o u n t t h a t ’s g o in g t o b e p a i d to t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y is 5 1 m il li o n , i f y o u g o d o w n . I n y e a r t w o t h e s u b s i d y t o S A E x p r e s s is 5 1 m il ll io n a n d a b i t , I’ m j u s t r o u n d i n g o ff f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h is d is c u s s i o n a n d i n y e a r t w o t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y is g o i n g t o b e 3 1 m il li o n p a i d . In year three, 4 3 m i ll io n t o S A E x p r e s s a n d 3 1 m i ll i o n t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y. I n y e a r f o u r 4 6 m il li o n to S A E x p r e s s a n d 3 1 m il li o n t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y a n d i n y e a r fiv e , 3 8 m il li o n t o S A E x p r e s s a n d a n o t h e r 3 1 m i ll io n t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y. A s I ’v e t o ta ll e d th a t u p i t j u s t e x c e e d s a b o u t 4 0 0 m il li o n o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f f iv e y e a r s in r e la t io n t o 20 fl y i n g r o u t e s o n S A E x p r e s s ’ p a r t a n d t h e n o n t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y ’s part, d o in g some ground a r r a n g e m e n t o f t h e m a i n a g r e e m e n t. h a n d l in g . So t h a t ’s the If we then go over to the K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t, C h a ir w h a t a p p e a r s q u i te s tr ik i n g a b o u t t h i s a g r e e m e n t i s t h a t i t h a s a to t a l ly d i ffe r e n t s tr u c t u r e f o r h o w K o r e n e k a is g o i n g to d e liv e r i ts s e r v ic e s o f g r o u n d h a n d l in g a n d h o w i t ’s g o i n g t o b e Page 147 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 r e m u n e r a t e d a n d s o I ’ d j u s t li k e t o h ig h l i g h t th o s e t w o c la u s e s . I t t a lk s in i t’s i n tr o d u c t o r y p a r ts a b o u t th e f a c t t h a t it ’s a g r o u n d h a n d l in g a g r e e m e n t , t h a t K o r e n e k a is c o n t r a c t e d t o p r o v id e t h o s e s e r v i c e s a t P il a n s b e r g a n d M a f ik e n g a n d t h e n i f w e g o to p a g e 9 9 y o u ’l l s e e i n c la u s e 2 0 , it s a y s a t 2 0 . 1 , “ I n c o n s i d e r a t io n o f t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g c o m p a n y p r o v i d i n g t h e s e r v i c e s , th e c a r r i e r, w h ic h i s a r e f e r e n c e t o S A E x p r e s s a g r e e s to p a y t h e h a n d l in g c o m p a n y t h e c h a r g e s s e t o u t i n th e r e l e v a n t A n n e x B h e r e to in c l u d i n g a n y a d d i ti o n a l e x p e n d i t u r e in c u r r e d 10 fo r p r o v i d in g th e s e r v ic e s r e fe r r e d to in th is agreement and the charges set out in Annex B hereto are not in c l u s i v e o f a n y o f t h e fo ll o w i n g ” , A n d th a t is j u s t a n e x c lu s i o n a b o u t c h a r g e s th a t w o u l d b e le v i e d r e a lly b y a ir p o r t a n d c u s t o m s a n d o th e r a u th o r it i e s b u t t h e n t h e n e x t i m p o r ta n t c la u s e i s c l a u s e 2 1 , b e c a u s e th is i s t a lk i n g a b o u t , w e ll h o w a r e t h e y g o i n g t o a c c o u n t , h o w i s t h e h a n d l in g c o m p a n y, K o r e n e k a g o i n g t o a c c o u n t t o S A E x p r e s s a n d t o s u m m a r i s e t h e r e ’s a n i n v o i c i n g s y s te m . M o n t h l y t h e r e w il l b e i n v o i c e s a n d w i t h i n 3 0 d a y s t h e r e ’l l b e p a y m e n t a n d t h e l a s t i m p o r ta n t t h i n g to g o t o th e n is A n n e x B , w h i c h 20 c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 1 0 8 . 1 , t h a t l is ts a ll o f t h e m u l ti t u d e o f h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s th a t a r e g o i n g t o h a v e t o b e p r o v i d e d a n d f in a l ly a t p a g e 1 0 8 . 5 a r e a l l o f t h e r a t e s t h a t a r e a p p lic a b l e t o t h e p r o v i s i o n o f t h o s e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Sorry page 10? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 0 8 .5 C h a ir. Page 148 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir, y o u ’l l s e e u n d e r c l a u s e 1 .2 t h e r e , t h e r e ’s a h e a d i n g fo r th e s e r v ic e s s e t o u t a b o v e th e a p p li c a b l e r a t e s h a l l b e a s f o ll o w s . A n d th e n th e r e a r e r a te s fo r g r o u n d - h a n d li n g t u r n a r o u n d c o s t , f o r g r o u n d - h a n d li n g l a b o u r, t h e r e ’s a s u b t o t a l , t h e r e ’s a b i t o f a m a n a g e m e n t f e e p u t i n th e r e . 11 6 4 4 3 . A n d t h e r e ’s a t o t a l o f R If y o u t h e n g o d o w n t o th e b r e a k d o w n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t f e e s i n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h s o n o w w e ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t m a n a g e m e n t f e e s i n p a r ti c u l a r. 10 T h e r e i s a n a n n u a l t o ta l t h a t c a n b e a c c u m u la t e d f o r m a n a g e m e n t fe e s , t h a t ’s a b o u t t h e f o u r t h c o l u m n along. A n d w h a t y o u ’l l s e e t h e r e C h a ir is t h a t m a n a g e m e n t f e e s in r e l a ti o n t o t h e t u r n a r o u n d o f a ir c r a f t , t h e t o ta l a n n u a l a m o u n t is a p p r o x i m a te ly R 4 2 5 0 0 0 a n d th e t o t a l f o r th e o th e r s e r v ic e s w h i c h a r e c u s t o m e r s e r v ic e a g e n ts a n d g e n e r a l w o r k e r s i s R 8 4 6 0 0 0 . C h a ir, w h a t is s tr ik in g w e w i ll s u g g e s t i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e is t h e d is c r e p a n c y b e tw e e n t h o s e f ig u r e s . Yo u ’ v e g o t fi g u r e s i n r e l a ti o n t o s u b s i d y u n d e r th e m a i n a g r e e m e n t in t h e r e g i o n o f 4 0 0 0 0 0 m il li o n a n d a p o r t io n o f t h a t ju s t u n d e r 2 0 0 m il li o n t h a t o v e r t h e fiv e y e a r s is e n v is a g e d to g o to th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y. 20 B u t th e n in th e a c tu a l a g r e e m e n t th a t ’s c o n c l u d e d b e tw e e n K o r e n e k a a n d S A E x p r e s s , y o u ’ v e got much more modest rates. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , i t’s v e r y s tr a n g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s v e r y s tr a n g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y b o t h r e l a t e to t h e s a m e s e r v i c e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. Th a t w il l b e e x p l o r e d w i th t h e Page 149 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 w i t n e s s e s C h a ir. B u t th a t a t l e a s t g i v e s u s t h e fr a m e w o r k fo r t h e agreement that was concluded, a main agreement but a reference in it t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y a n d a n e n t i tl e m e n t t o t h o s e m il li o n s w o r t h o f s u b s id ie s a n d Koreneka. th e n t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d M r N g w e n y a , a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e t h o u g h , th e s o r t o f in v o ic i n g t h a t th e K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t e n v is a g e s m o n t h ly i n t h e s e m u c h m o r e m o d e s t a m o u n ts a r e n o t i n v o ic e s y o u e v e r u n c o v e r e d , is that correct? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , y e a h . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f w e m a y th e n m o v e t o t h e i n v o ic e s t h a t y o u d id u n c o v e r b e c a u s e t h e y a r e i n t h e m il li o n s a n d t h e r e a r e fo u r o f t h e m . A n d C h a ir, w i th y o u r g u id a n c e I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o g o t o ( i n a u d ib l e ) c o l l e c ti v e ly, l e t ’s c o n c l u d e if i t’s c o n v e n i e n t th e K o r e n e k a p o s i ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t ’s fi n e . Ye a h , th a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e w i ll d o t h a t p ic k i n g i t u p a t p a g e 1 8 , M r N g w e n y a o f y o u a ff id a v i t 1 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e th a t y o u a r e m a k in g s u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , I ’v e g o t a n o t e h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n ’ t m a k e a m is ta k e a g a i n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I w il l n o t m a k e a n o t h e r m is ta k e . I m i g h t e v e n a t t a c h i t t o t h e m ic r o p h o n e s o th e r e ’s n o c h a n c e . B u t w e a r e a t p a g e 1 8 , M r N g w e n y a a n d p a r a g r a p h 5 3 t h e r e y o u s t a r t t o t e ll u s a b o u t t h e fir s t p a y m e n t . M r N g w e n y a , y o u g iv e u s i t s e e ms t o b e t h e s ty le o f y o u r a ff id a v i t , a n e n o r m o u s a m o u n t o f d e ta ils . M y s e n s e is t h a t M r N g w e n y a , y o u ’r e a v e r y d e t a i le d p e r s o n a n d s o y o u h a v e s e t o u t i n Page 150 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 s c r u p u l o u s d e t a i l t h e t r a c k i n g o f th e i n v o i c e a n d t h e n w h o a u t h o r i s e d i t a n d t h e n h o w i t w a s p a id a n d w h e n i t w a s p a id . We have that on r e c o r d , I’ d lik e t o j u s t t o h i g h l i g h t t h e i m p o r ta n t p o i n ts o f i t . P a r a g r a p h 5 3 . 1 r e c o r d s t h a t o n t h e 4 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 5 K o r e n e k a is s u e d a n in v o ic e o f 8 .5 m i ll io n t o S A E x p r e s s a n d th e n w i ll y o u te ll u s w h a t d e s c r i p ti o n w a s u s e d o n t h a t i n v o ic e ? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s th e A i r p o r t r e fu r b is h m e n t a n d c o m p li a n c e m a i n te n a n c e a n d o p e r a ti o n a l s e tu p c o s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 N o w i f y o u ju m p d o w n t o p a r a g r a p h 5 3 .4 o n t h a t p a g e y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e e x p e n s e a u t h o r i s a t io n w h ic h f o ll o w s th a t in v o ic e r e fl e c t s the same d e s c r i p ti o n , A ir p o r t r e fu r b is h m e n ts a n d c o m p l ia n c e m a i n t e n a n c e a n d o p e r a t i o n s e t u p c o s t . A n d t h e n w i ll y o u j u s t te ll u s w h a t y o u m a k e o f th a t d e s c r i p ti o n o n t h e in v o ic e ? M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : L o o k C h a ir, t h is d e s c r i p ti o n y o u k n o w h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h S A E x p r e s s s o r t o f r e s p o n s i b i li ty. CHAIRPERSON: Nor th e agreement between SA Express and Koreneka. M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : 20 Ye s , th e a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a b e c a u s e o f n o n e o f th e s e r v ic e s m e n t i o n e d t h e r e y o u k n o w S A E x p r e s s r e q u e s t e d th a t K o r e n e k a p r o v i d e b u t th is t h e y ’ r e r e l a t e d t o t h e F a c il i ty M a n a g e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w h e r e K o r e n e k a w a s a c ti n g a s th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y p r o v i d in g s e r v i c e s t o t h e N o r t h w e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t in m a n a g in g t h e A ir p o r t s . Th is h a s a b s o l u t e ly nothing to do with SA Express. Page 151 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: S o a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e s e ty p e s o f s e r v i c e s t h a t fi ts t h is d e s c r i p t i o n , t h e y f e l l o u t s i d e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A Express and Koreneka. M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e y d id f a l l w i t h i n t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n K o r e n e k a a s M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y a n d t h e N o r th w e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d C o m m u n i ty S a f e t y. M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y, b u t S A E x p r e s s w a s b e i n g i n v o ic e d f o r t h o s e s e r v ic e s ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e i n v o ic e ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a , I d o n e e d t o in d i c a t e t h i s to y o u in te r m s o f th e e v i d e n c e th a t w il l c o m e i n d u e c o u r s e . I t is n o t c l e a r c e r t a i n l y t o m e t h a t t h a t d e s c r i p t i o n e v e n f a l ls w i t h i n th e e n v i s a g e s u b s i d ie s u n d e r t h e m a i n a g r e e m e n t . O n w h a t b a s is d o y o u s a y y o u a r e s a t is fi e d t h a t i t f a lls u n d e r t h e m a i n a g r e e m e n t ? 20 M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : A t A ir p o r t r e f u r b is h m e n t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M m . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : C o m p li a n c e m a in t e n a n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M m . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k m a y b e l e t m e p u t t h e q u e s t io n t h i s w a y. In s a y in g th a t t h a t d e s c r i p t i o n i n t h e i n v o i c e f a lls w i t h i n t h e s e r v i c e s Page 152 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c o n te m p l a t e d in t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n K o r e n e k a a n d t h e N o r t h w e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t , a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t b e c a u s e y o u d i d h a v e a lo o k a t t h a t a g r e e m e n t o r a r e y o u b a s in g y o u r v i e w o n s o m e th i n g e l s e ? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir, t h is i n fo r m a t i o n i s a l s o c o n ta in e d o n t h e a u d io r e c o r d i n g s w h e r e Mr B r i a n v a n W y k w a s a c t u a ll y y o u k n o w d e s c r ib i n g t h e ty p e o f s e r v ic e to M s B a b a d i Tl a ts a n a , i t ’s o n r e c o r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : W h e r e h e m e n t io n e d to s a y th e y n e e d t o r e fu r b is h th e A ir p o r t, t h e y n e e d t o p u t o n t h e C C T V, t h e fi r e tr u c k s a n d 10 a l l t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye a h , b u t t h a t ’s f in e t h a t ’s o n e t h i n g b u t d i d y o u h a v e a lo o k a t t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d s a w t h a t it d o e s f i t i n o r y o u a s s u m e d t h a t it d o e s b e c a u s e o f w h a t y o u h e a r d ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : I a s s u m e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B e c a u s e i f I k n e w fo r a f a c t t h a t it w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And Mr Ngwenya, if I may suggest your p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e i n r e l a ti o n t o th e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a a n d w h a t y o u m a n a g e d t o u n c o v e r i n t h e in v o ic in g e tc e t e r a i s p a r ti c u la r ly r e le v a n t fo r o u r p u r p o s e s . W e h a v e a ls o lis t e n e d t o s o m e o f th o s e r e c o r d i n g s a n d i n d e e d w e w il l p l a y t h e m i n t h e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e . M r v a n W y k is o f te n o n t h o s e r e c o r d i n g s Page 153 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 in d i c a t in g th e n e e d f o r r e f u r b is h m e n t a n d f ir e tr u c k s b u t Mr N g w e n y a , t h a t ’s p r e c is e l y p a r t o f o u r in v e s ti g a t io n b e c a u s e i t is n o t a t a ll c l e a r t o u s t h a t t h o s e w e r e i n fa c t e n v is a g e d s e r v ic e s u n d e r th e m a i n a g r e e m e n t a t a ll . R i g h t. S o t h e f ir s t p a y m e n t i s 8 . 5 m il li o n , w e ’r e a t page 18. A n d th e y a r e fo r th is q u o t e d a ir p o r t r e f u r b i s h m e n t a n d c o m p li a n c e m a i n t e n a n c e a n d o p e r a ti o n a l s e t u p c o s ts . T h a t 8 . 5 m il li o n is p a i d b y S A E x p r e s s t o K o r e n e k a , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e t h e d a te o f t h a t o v e r t h e p a g e a t 1 9 , 10 it w a s p a id o n t h e 6 t h o f M a y, c o r r e c t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t y o u c a n c e r t a i n l y s a y is t h a t d e s c r ip t io n o f s e r v i c e s is n o t c o v e r e d b y t h e S A E x p r e s s K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t , c o r r e c t? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e s e c o n d p a y m e n t y o u ’l l p ic k u p a t p a g e 1 9 . I t w a s to t h e v a lu e o f a fu r th e r 8 . 5 m il li o n a n d i t w a s d a t e d t h e 1 7 t h o f A u g u s t a t l e a s t th e i n v o i c e w a s . D o y o u s e e t h a t a t 5 4 .1 ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d e s c r i p ti o n w a s g iv e n o n th a t i n v o i c e ? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A ir p o r t r e f u r b is h m e n t a n d c o m p l ia n c e m a in t e n a n c e a n d fa c i li ty u p g r a d e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : same th a t t h a t was A n d I th e n e x p e c t y o u r e v i d e n c e w i ll b e t h e not covered by the a g r e e m e n t? Page 154 of 196 SA Express Koreneka 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d n o n e t h e l e s s a t 5 4 .4 I p ic k u p t h a t th e payment was made on the 27th of August, correct? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e a m o u n t o f 8 . 5 m ill i o n ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d g e n e r a ll y y o u g a v e u s e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r b u t t h e r e i s a u th o r is a ti o n f o r th e s e p a y m e n ts b e i n g p r o v i d e d u n t il t h i s p o i n t b y M r v a n W y k , is th a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. A n d t h e n w e g o t o t h e t h ir d p a y m e n t . C h a ir, w h a t’s i n te r e s t i n g a b o u t t h e t h ir d p a y m e n t f r o m M r N g w e n y a ’s e v i d e n c e is t h a t t h e p a y m e n t w a s f o r 1 4 m il li o n a n d i t w a s a s i n g l e p a y m e n t o n a s i n g l e d a y. B u t t h e w a y i t c a m e i n t o S A E x p r e s s w a s in t h e f o r m o f t w o in v o ic e s f o r le s s e a c h th a n 1 0 m il li o n . A n d M r N g w e n y a h a s s o m e v ie w s a b o u t w h y i t w a s b r o k e n u p i n t o t w o i n v o i c e s b u t n o n e t h e le s s p a id i n o n e p a y m e n t . Mr N g w e n y a , y o u ’l l f i n d t h a t a t p a g e 2 0 p a r a g r a p h s 5 5 . W h a t i s t h e p o i n t- w e ll l e t ’s g o fir s t , t h e d e s c r ip t io n o n t h e fi r s t i n v o i c e w h ic h w a s f o r 5 .8 4 m il li o n , w h a t w a s t h a t ? 20 M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : F a c il it y S e c u r it y M a n a g e m e n t a n d F a c il i ty Management. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e s e c o n d i n v o ic e , w h a t d e s c r i p t i o n w a s g iv e n fo r i t? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : A i r p o r t fir e tr u c k le a s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t w a s f o r a n a m o u n t o f 8 . 1 6 m il li o n , i s Page 155 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 that correct? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t 5 5 . 2 y o u m a k e t h e p o i n t a b o u t t h e p a y m e n t s f a ll in g u n d e r 1 0 m il li o n r a n d , w h a t is t h a t p o in t ? M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : A s I’ v e e x p la in e d e a r l ie r m a ’ a m , t o s a y y o u k n o w t h e r e is a d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i t y in t e r m s o f s i g n i n g o ff t h e m o n e y a n d a ll t h a t . N o w o n t h e e x p e n s e o f i t is c l e a r ly d e p ic t e d a s t o h o w m u c h c a n th e C E O a n d t h e G M s ig n o ff? N o w a n y t h i n g a b o v e 1 0 m il li o n b e c a u s e o f I t h i n k h e ’s g o t t h e s i g n in g p o w e r f o r 1 0 m i ll io n r a n d . 10 N o w a t t h a t ti m e y o u k n o w i t s 1 4 m il li o n t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e t a k e n out of the account. N o w t h e C E O d id n ’ t h a v e le a d d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r i ty y o u k n o w i n te r m s o f ( i n a u d i b l e c r o s s ta lk ) o f a u th o r it y t o s a y h e c a n s ig n fo r a n y t h i n g a b o v e t h e 1 0 m il li o n r a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e y o n d 1 0 m i ll io n . M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I n th a t r e g a r d th e B o a r d w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n v o l v e d i n th is s o a s t o a p p r o v e a n d s ig n i t o ff . B u t t h e a m o u n ts w e r e b r o k e n i n t o t w o s m a l le r a m o u n ts w h i c h w e r e b e l o w th e 1 0 m i ll io n t h r e s h o ld s o t h a t y o u k n o w to c ir c u m v e n t t h e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e e d to a p p r o a c h th e B o a r d . 20 M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : T h e n e e d to a p p r o a c h th e B o a r d a n d t h e ir a p p r o v a l . A n d I m u s t s a y t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s n e v e r e v e n i n fo r m e d o f t h is tr a n s a c t io n a s t h e m o n e y w a s fl o w i n g o u t o f t h e c o m p a n y. S o th e s e p a r a t io n w a s j u s t t o e n s u r e t h a t i t ’s b e lo w t h e 1 0 m il li o n t h r e s h o l d a n d th a t o b v io u s ly i t e n a b le s M r v a n W y k t h e a u t h o r i ty t o s i g n i t o ff a n d ja . Page 156 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e s e p a y m e n t s w e r e t h e y a l l a u t h o r i s e d b y th e C E O o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t, y o u m i g h t k n o w o n l y one? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y, l e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y C h a ir. O n a l l these tr a n s a c ti o n s the CEO appended his signature on the . .. ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e r e le v a n t d o c u m e n ts t o . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ex p e n s e a u th o r i s a t io n fo r m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Now Mr van Wyk was approving so he e n d o r s e d y o u k n o w t h e C E O , h e a ls o s ig n e d o n t h a t o n a ll t h e s e e x p e n s e f o r ms . C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l t h is tr a n s a c t i o n s , ja . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : H e h a d k n o w l e d g e b e c a u s e o f e a r l ie r h e in f o r m e d m e th a t t h is m o n e y w a s d e p o s i t e d to S A Ex p r e s s b y m i s t a k e y o u k n o w, i t w a s n o t i n te n d e d fo r S A E x p r e s s . I t w a s i n t e n d e d fo r K o r e n e k a h e n c e t h e y w e r e ta k i n g t h a t m o n e y o u t o f S A E x p r e s s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, j u s t t o p ic k u p t h a t p o i n t . I f w e ju s t l o o k a t o n e o f th e e x p e n s e a u th o r is a ti o n s y o u ’ ll s e e th o s e s i g n a t u r e s . c a n g o to t h e o n e u n d e r t a b 1 3 p a g e 1 2 3 . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : Ta b 1 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 157 of 196 We 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, y o u ’ll s e e in th e r i g h t - h a n d h a l f o f t h e p a g e a t th e b o t t o m th e r e ’s a p l a c e fo r r e c o m m e n d e d b y a n d a s i g n a t u r e a n d a n a m e t o b e p r i n te d a n d t h e n a p p r o v e d b y. M r N g w e n y a , w h o ’s s ig n a tu r e is o n t h e a p p r o v e d b y li n e t h e r e ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : It ’s M r Br i a n v a n W y k s ig n a tu r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h e n a m e b e n e a t h t h a t r e a d s B T v a n W y k , is th a t r i g h t? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t , M r Br ia n v a n W y k , i ts Br ia n Te b o g o v a n W y k . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n is t h a t s i g n a t u r e u n d e r a d d i t io n a l s ig n a tu r e b e l o w t h e r e t h e o n e t h a t y o u i d e n ti fy a s M r N ts h a n g a ’s ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h a t ’s r e p e a t e d t h r o u g h o u t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e e x p e n s e a u t h o r i s a t io n s , i s t h a t r ig h t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : payments. S o t h o s e c o m p l e t e t h e f o u r i n v o ic e s b u t th r e e T h e f ir s t o f 8 . 5 , t h e s e c o n d o f 8 . 5 , th e t h ir d o f 1 4 w h ic h t o t a l 3 1 m il li o n , is th a t r i g h t? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w e r e s a ti s f ie d a f te r y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t n o n e o f t h e d e s c r i p ti o n s o n t h e i n v o i c e s r e l a te d to m a t t e r s c o v e r e d b y th e S A E x p r e s s K o r e n e k a a g r e e m e n t , c o r r e c t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o b a c k t o p a g e 2 0 o f th e a ffi d a v i t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) Page 158 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y. S o o n th e b a s is t h a t t h e s e r v i c e s t h a t w e r e r e fl e c t e d i n t h e i n v o i c e s fo r w h ic h K o r e n e k a w a n te d t o b e p a id f a ll o u t s i d e o f t h e s e r v ic e s th a t w e r e th e s u b j e c t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a ? T h e s e p a y m e n ts w e r e a l l n o t s u p p o s e d to have happened? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p a g e 2 0 o f t h e a ff id a v i t Mr N g w e n y a , y o u t a lk a b o u t a d i s c u s s io n w i t h M s T l a t s a n a t h a t y o u r e f e r e n c e a t p a r a g r a p h 5 5 .3 a n d y o u s t a te t h e r e t h a t in m y d is c u s s i o n w i t h M s Tl a ts a n a s h e s a id t h a t s h e d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t t h e s e i n v o i c e s a n d p a y m e n t s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t , d i d y o u a s k h e r a b o u t t h e m ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , y e a h . T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d th e n y o u .. . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s h e s a i d s h e n e v e r p r e p a r e t h e s e in v o ic e s a n d h e r o ffic e n e v e r e v e n p r e p a r e d t h e m o r j u s t t h a t s h e d i d n ’ t p r e p a r e t h e m ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : S h e d id n o t s u b m i t a n y i n v o i c e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A n d f o r t h a t m a t t e r C h a ir, s h e d i d n o t e v e n know how to prepare an invoice at the juncture. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e a h , i s th a t s o m e t h in g y o u - t h a t ’s w h a t s h e t o l d you? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S h e t o ld m e . A t s o m e s t a g e s h e a s k s m e Page 159 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 a s to h o w t o s u b m i t a n in v o ic e , h o w t o g o a b o u t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Wa s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m h e r t h a t t h a t w a s t h e r o l e t h a t M r K a li s i lir a p l a y e d . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t w h a t s h e c o n v e y e d t o y o u ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u t e ly a n d o b v i o u s l y t h e r e c o r d i n g s a ls o i t is a c t u a l ly m e n ti o n e d th a t M r D a v i d K a lis il ir a w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r y o u k n o w p r e p a r in g in v o ic e s a n d a l l th a t . And that came out of Mr B r i a n v a n W y k ’s m o u t h t h a t w a s h i s e x a c t w o r d s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a , y o u m a d e t h e p o i n t a m o m e n t a g o t h a t y o u w e n t t o M r N ts h a n g a t o a s k h i m a b o u t w h y S A E x p r e s s w a s p a y i n g K o r e n e k a in r e la t io n t o m a t te r s a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d it c o v e r e d b y t h e m a in a g r e e m e n t , is t h a t r i g h t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s M r N ts h a n g a ’s r e s p o n s e t o th a t ? M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : His response was that the money was erroneously paid to SA Express when it was intended for Koreneka so based on that they had to pay it to Koreneka. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 B e c a u s e w h e n w e l o o k e d a t th a t m a in a g r e e m e n t y o u ’l l r e c a ll th a t c la u s e s a y s t h e d e p a r t m e n t s h a l l p a y S A E x p r e s s t h e s u b s i d y a n d t h e M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y. I s t h a t w h e r e y o u d r a w t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t i t w a s f o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y th e a p p o i n t e d M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y w h ic h i n t h is c a s e i s K o r e n e k a ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u r a is e i t w i t h M r N ts h a n g a a s I h a v e y o u r Page 160 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 e v i d e n c e a n d h e s a y s , y e s i t w a s e r r o n e o u s l y p a id t o S A E x p r e s s a n d s o S A E x p r e s s h a d t o p a y i t o u t t o K o r e n e k a , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: But I assume that suggest that the Department of Tr a n s p o r t a n d C o m m u n i t y S e r v ic e o r S a fe t y i n N o r t h w e s t is t h e o n e th a t h e w a s s a y in g h a d p a id t h e m o n e y t o S A E x p r e s s i n s te a d o f K o r e n e k a . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t i f t h a t w a s t h e c a s e t h e y d i d n ’ t p a y b a c k to t h e p e r s o n w h o e r r o n e o u s ly p a i d t o t h e m fo r t h a t p e r s o n t o p a y it e x a c tl y w h e r e th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to p a y i t . Why were they the ones paying Koreneka? M R N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : unlawful to e r r o n e o u s l y. d iv e r t money Th a t w a s m y v i e w C h a ir, t o s a y i t ’s that is tr a n s fe r r e d to your account It was not intended for Express therefore why divert it in s t e a d o f a d v i s i n g th e N o r th w e s t D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e o f y o u g o t a r e l a ti o n s h i p t o t h e m t o s a y y o u k n o w s o r t o f r e v e r s e t h e p a y m e n t a n d r e d ir e c t i t t o t h e i n te n d e d e n t it y. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d i t’s n o t f o r y o u t o p a s s i t o n , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t K o r e n e k a is e n t it l e d t o i t o r n o t a n d i f y o u p a s s i t o n t o Koreneka in c ir c u m s t a n c e s where the Northwest Department of Tr a n s p o r t s a y s , n o b u t y o u s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e d o n e t h a t i t ’s o u r m o n e y. What do you say? M R N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t ’s e x a c t ly m y p o in t t h a t t h o s e a r e is s u e s t h a t a r e r a i s e d w i t h t h e C E C h a ir. Page 161 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : B e c a u s e o f I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I w a n t u s t o t a k e a b r e a k a t 1 6 h 3 0 b u t if i t ’s a lr e a d y a c o n v e n i e n t ti m e in te r ms o f w h a t y o u w a n t to a s k w e c a n ta k e it n o w o th e r w i s e w it h in 5 m in u t e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w a s j u s t g o i n g t o d ir e c t y o u t o o n e a s p e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , th e n t h a t’s f i n e le t ’s g o u p t o 1 6 h 3 0 t h a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E x c e l l e n t . C h a ir, it w a s j u s t t o r e a s s u r e y o u a t 10 p a g e 2 1 o f M r N g w e n y a ’s a ff id a v i t th a t h e h a d e x a c tly t h e s a m e q u e s t io n a s y o u h a d . A s h is p a r a g r a p h 5 7 o f t h e a ffi d a v i t r e a d s , h e ’s r e c o u n t e d in t h e p r e c i o u s p a r a g r a p h w h a t M r N ts h a n g a ’s r e s p o n s e w a s a n d h e s a y s i n h is a ffi d a v it i f I m a y M r N g w e n y a , I w a s d i s tu r b e d b y that response. T h e li n g e r in g q u e s ti o n w a s w h y d i d n ’ t S A E x p r e s s r e fu n d th e m o n e y t o th e D e p a r t m e n t i f it w a s p a i d b y m is t a k e b u t in s t e a d p a y it to K o r e n e k a . S o Mr N g w e n y a , i t ’s f a ir t o s a y t o w a s p r e c i s e ly y o u r c o n c e r n , w a s i t n o t ? M R N H LA N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Indeed. T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w e c a n c o n ti n u e a ft e r t h e b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s ta k e a 1 0 m i n u te s b r e a k u p t o 1 6 h 3 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES Page 162 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r N g w e n y a I w o u l d lik e to p ic k i t u p a t th e p o i n t w h e r e Va lo t e c k i s n o w c o n tr a c t e d to S A E x p r e s s t o r e p l a c e K o r e n e k a i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e M a f i k e n g A i r p o r t . Yo u h a v e g i v e n u s t h e b a c k g r o u n d a l r e a d y t o th a t in y o u r t e s ti m o n y. A s I h a v e i t in t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n y o u t r i e d t o u n d e r s ta n d o n w h a t b a s i s Va lo t e c k h a d b e e n a p p o in t e d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t a n d M r N g w e n y a i f y o u w i ll t u r n o n t h e m ic r o p h o n e ? T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b e f o r e – b e f o r e t h a t – I a m s o r r y t o in t e r r u p t y o u . 10 I n y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n d i d y o u e v e r t r y a n d e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r th e r e w a s any correspondence SA Express and the North West Department of Tr a n s p o r t r e la t in g t o t h i s e r r o n e o u s p a y m e n t – s o c a ll e d e r r o n e o u s p a y m e n t t o S A E x p r e s s o f m o n e y t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d to b e p a i d t o Koreneka? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t r ie d C h a ir b u t I d id n o t g e t e v i d e n c e t o th a t e ff e c t . In … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u a s k th e C E O … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e r e w a s a n d w h a t d id h e s a y ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e s a i d t h e y w e r e n o ti f ie d b y t h e N o r th W e s t t o s a y th e y e r r o n e o u s ly d e p o s i t e d t h e m o n e y b u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n o t i fic a ti o n w a s n o t in w r i t i n g ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t a p p e a r s s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S o h e d i d n o t p r o v i d e a n y p r o o f . Page 163 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e Va lo t e c k is a p p o in t e d b u t t h e o n ly r e c o r d y o u c o u l d fi n d o f a n y p r o c e s s t h a t w a s e m b a r k e d u p o n b e fo r e t h e c o n t r a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d r e l a t e d to l a b o u r b r o k i n g s e r v ic e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I propose we just look at and M r N g w e n y a t h e Va l o te c k A g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n w e c a n b e q u i te s w i f t w i t h t h e PA M C O a n d M A M C O A g r e e m e n ts th e r e a ft e r b e c a u s e t h e p o i n t 10 t o b e m a d e is t h a t t h e y a r e r e p lic a s o f th e K o r e n e k a A g r e e m e n t . Yo u w i ll fi n d t h e Va l o te c k A g r e e m e n t u n d e r Ta b 1 9 a t p a g e 1 - 3 - 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t y o u s e e h e r e Mr N g w e n y a is a n a g r e e m e n t . J u s t t e l l u s w h o t h e p a r ti e s a r e i f y o u m a y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t is S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s A ir w a y s a n d Va lo t e c k F a c il it i e s M a n a g e m e n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir I d o n o t p r o p o s e t o s p e n d ti m e o n i t b u t y o u c a n r e s t a s s u r e d a n d i f a n y o n e w a n ts t o t a k e u s u p o n t h is t h e y w i ll . 20 I t is a r e p l ic a . T h e o n ly – t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o o d d it i e s . The a n n e x u r e r e fe r r e d t o i n t h i s a g r e e m e n t w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b le t o source. T h e o n e t h a t s e t s o u t th e g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s . T h i s is t h e o n ly v e r s i o n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e c o m m i s s io n h a s a b le – h a s b e e n a b le t o f in d a n d th e n i f y o u g o o v e r t o Ta b 2 0 … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t w o u l d b e th e c u t a n d p a s t e t h a t … Page 164 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N g w e n y a … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Was talking about? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u g e t t h e fir s t K o r e n e k a A g r e e m e n t w h ic h is t h e n r e p lic a t e d e ff e c t iv e ly i n t h e Va lo t e c k A g r e e m e n t a n d th e n y o u w i ll s e e i f y o u tu r n o v e r t o th e n e x t t a b a t p a g e 1 - 5 - 9 . M r N g w e n y a w h o 10 a r e t h e p a r ti e s t o t h is a g r e e m e n t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t is S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s A ir w a y s a n d H a lc o g e n w h ic h is PA M C O . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d i n – s o r r y – a n d le t u s ju s t g o to M A M C O t o c l o s e i t o ff a n d t h e n I w a n t to a s k y o u a b o u t w h e n th e s e tw o a g r e e m e n ts w e r e c o n c l u d e d . Yo u w il l f i n d th e M A M C O A g r e e m e n t a s o v e r t h e n e x t t a b a t 2 1 s t a r ti n g a t p a g e 1 - 8 - 7 a n d w h o a r e t h e p a r ti e s t h e r e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t is S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s A ir w a y s a n d M o h i c a n Ai r p o r t M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y – M A M C O . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. N o w th e s e t w o a g r e e m e n ts M r N g w e n y a w h e n w e r e th e y c o n c lu d e d ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Mr N g w e n y a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h m y g o o d n e s s . I t h a s h a p p e n e d a g a i n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I w a s n o t l o o k in g a t m y n o t e s a t t h e Page 165 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k – I t h i n k h e m u s t c h a r g e y o u a f e e n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e m u s t a n d i f I d o it a g a i n p le a s e c o r r e c t m e . Mr Ngwenya … C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N g w e n y a – M r N g w e n y a s h e is c o u n s e l y o u c a n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d th e r e is … CHAIRPERSON: Put your rate quite high. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N g w e n y a p l e a s e te ll th e C h a i r w h e n th e s e t w o a g r e e m e n ts - a n d C h a ir w e r e f e r t o t h e m f o r s h o r t th e M a fi k e n g 10 A ir p o r t M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y is M A M C O . Th e H a l c o g e n Tr a d in g a s P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y w e r e f e r t o a s PA M C O a n d I s u g g e s t t h o s e w i ll b e o u r a b b r e v ia t io n s f o r th e n e x t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ev id e n c e s e s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n w e r e t h e s e t w o a g r e e m e n ts c o n c l u d e d Mr Ngwenya? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W e h e a r d a b o u t th is w a y a f t e r t h e d e p a r tu r e o f M r N t s h a n g a fr o m S A E x p r e s s b u t t h e y w e r e c o n c lu d e d 20 w i t h i n h is la s t t h r e e o r t w o d a y s b e f o r e h e e x i t e d S A E x p r e s s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Which is the 28th, 29 March 2017. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . S o le t u s j u s t p la c e o u r s e lv e s i n t i m e i f w e m a y. Yo u g e t t h e c a l l fr o m M s T l a t s a n a o n 2 4 J u n e 2 0 1 6 . C o r r e c t? Page 166 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u m o v e t o i n v e s ti g a te . m e e ti n g o n th e M o n d a y t h e r e a f t e r. Yo u h a v e y o u r Yo u p r o d u c e y o u r r e p o r t o n 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 6 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t s e e a c ti o n o n it b u t y o u g i v e a fi n a l r e p o r t la t e r i n t h a t y e a r n o t s i g n e d s u b je c t to t h e c a v e a ts t h a t y o u h a v e d e s c r ib e d . T h e n y o u h a v e a n in t e r a c ti o n w i t h M r N t s h a n g a i n e a r l y 2 0 1 7 – a s I r e c a ll it – w h e r e h e is a s k i n g y o u t o w r i t e a l e tt e r t o th e 10 North West Government to reassure them about the relationship … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h e n d o e s h e l e a v e S A E x p r e s s ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e fo ll o w i n g m o n t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n w a s … ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W h i c h i s M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s i t a t t h e e n d o f t h e m o n t h ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s d e fi n i t e l y a t t h e e n d o f the month. CHAIRPERSON: March 2017? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e s e t w o a g r e e m e n ts – a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e – a r e s i g n e d b y Mr N ts h a n g a w it h i n t w o o r s o d a y s o f t h a t departure? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y d a te d t h e 2 8 t h a n d 2 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . I s th a t Page 167 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 correct? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r N g w e n y a I th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I t m ig h t b e a p p r o p r ia t e to ju s t c h e c k . Yo u m a y h a v e d e a l t w it h th is b e f o r e . W i t h r e g a r d to t h e K o r e n e k a – i t is K o r e n e k a ? T h e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : K o r e n e k a . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , K o r e n e k a t h a t c o m p a n y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : J a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s M s T l a t s a n a t h e o n l y o w n e r /s h a r e h o l d e r /D ir e c t o r t h a t w a s i n i t o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u d o n o t k n o w ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A c c o r d i n g t o t h e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d the document that she handed to me … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : P r i o r t o Mr v a n W y k b r i n g i n g t h e t w o p a r tn e r s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : She was the sole owner of the company … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : And after Mr Vi c t o r T h a b e n g r e s ig n e d a n d s h e h a d to t a k e o u t M s J o y c e P h i r i o u t o f t h e c o m p a n y. She remained alone again. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y a lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e r e is a p e r i o d o f t i m e M r N g w e n y a – a s I Page 168 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 h a v e i t – w h e r e t h e r e w e r e t h r e e m e m b e r s o f t h e C C h e r s e lf , M r T h a b e n g a n d M s P h ir i? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But then Mr Thabeng resigned and then M s P h ir i th e r e w a s li t ig a ti o n o v e r h e r r e m o v a l . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n I ju s t a s k a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n e s ta b lis h e d a n y r e la t io n s h i p s b e t w e e n M s P h i r i w h o m y o u r e fe r r e d t o a n d w h o w a s a p p o i n te d i n t o t h e c o m p a n y K o r e n e k a , M r P h i r i 10 w h o w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r c e r ta i n a p p o i n t m e n t s w i t h i n t h e c o m p a n y a n d Mr van Wyk? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s I d id e s t a b li s h m a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t a r e t h e y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir M s P h ir i i s th e m o t h e r t o M r L e v y S i p h o P h ir i a n d Mr L e v y S i p h o P h ir i i s th e li f e p a r t n e r o f M r Br ia n v a n W y k – b o y fr i e n d y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e r e is a p e r s o n a l r e la t io n s h ip ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Th e r e is a p e r s o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p . T h e y a r e i n – y e s – r o m a n ti c r e l a t i o n s h ip . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d … CHAIRPERSON: A n d I g u e s s Ms H o f m e y r y o u w i ll a ls o e x p lo r e th e is s u e o f w h o w e r e t h e o w n e r s / m e m b e r s / s h a r e h o l d e r s o f M A M C O a n d Page 169 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 PA M C O ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e – w e h a v e – I th in k o n y o u r e v i d e n c e a lr e a d y M r N g w e n y a t h a t M s D u b e m o v e s f r o m K o r e n e k a w h e r e s h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e F a c il i ti e s M a n a g e r b y t h e M r P h ir i w e h a v e b e e n speaking about. Correct? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 She is th e n d is m i s s e d by M s T la ts a n a . C o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t M s Tl a ts a n a r e l a y s to y o u is t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e c o n f lic t e m e r g i n g b e t w e e n h e r a n d M r v a n W y k . C o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n Va lo t e c k is g iv e n t h e A g r e e m e n t . T h e s a m e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d w i th K o r e n e k a a n d d o e s M s D u b e feature there again? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ms Dube featured there as the owner or 50 percent shareholding and the … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O f Va l o te c k ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O f Va lo t e c k … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : the purpose of this h e a r in g . A n d C h a ir ju s t t o m e n t io n fo r Th e o th e r owner of Va l o te c k M s K e fi lw e M o g o d ir i i s a l s o r e l a te d to M s P h ir i b e c a u s e o f Ms P h ir i’s Page 170 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 m a id e n n a m e i s M o g o d ir i a s w e l l . S o I g u e s s M r v a n W y k w a n te d to k e e p i t i n t h e f a m il y. CHAIRPERSON: But when you say they are related is that because t h a t i s – y o u k n o w th a t to b e a f a c t o r y o u j u s t s a w t h e s u r n a m e t h a t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s c o n fir m e d . I was told t h a t i t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s c o n f ir m e d , o h . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e r e is a n o th e r p e r s o n a l l i n k a s I h a v e it w i t h i n Va l o te c k ’s o w n e r s h i p . Ms D u b e a p p o i n t e d i n i ti a l ly i n K o r e n e k a b y M r P h ir i a n d t h e n a p p e a r s a g a in in Va lo t e c k . C o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n h e r c o - p a r tn e r i n th a t b u s i n e s s M s M o g o d i r i i s r e l a t e d t o M r P h ir i a n d Ms P h ir i . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d is a t p a g e 2 2 p a r a g r a p h 5 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d i n te r ms o f t h e o w n e r s h i p o f PA M C O a n d M A M C O w e r e y o u a b le t o e s ta b l is h a n y li n k s t h e r e M r N g w e n y a ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H o n e s t ly s p e a k i n g I d i d n o t a c t u a ll y i n v e s ti g a te t h a t b e c a u s e I h a d a c t u a ll y c o n c l u d e d a n d i t h a p p e n e d w h e n – y o u k n o w w e d i s c o v e r e d a ft e r Mr N ts h a n g a l e f t b u t what I have e s t a b lis h e d in th e o w n e r s h ip o f PA M C O was that M s N o t u l e D u d u w a s a ls o a n o w n e r o f PA M C O . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d le t m e j u s t g e t o n e o t h e r p o i n t o f c l a r i ty. Page 171 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 Va lo t e c k w a s n e v e r p a i d b y S A E x p r e s s . Wa s i t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It was paid d ir e c tly by th e North West D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h a t th e p a y m e n t p o s i ti o n is in r e l a ti o n t o M A M C O a n d PA M C O ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o t r e a l ly m a ’ a m . As I have s a i d t h a t I d id n o t ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w i ll tr a v e r s e th a t i n o t h e r e v id e n c e . So M r N g w e n y a if w e m a y t h e n g o - s u b j e c t to a n y o t h e r q u e r ie s C h a ir t h a t y o u m a y h a v e i n r e l a ti o n to t h e a g r e e m e n t s – I w o u ld li k e t o t a k e u s to p a g e 2 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : P a g e 2 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b e fo r e w e b e g in w i th t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h o n t h a t p a g e I w o u l d j u s t l ik e y o u r c o n f ir m a ti o n . Yo u – y o u i n d ic a t e d a m o m e n t a g o y o u d i d n o t in v e s t i g a t e PA M C O a n d M A M C O e x t e n s iv e ly … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I d o r e c a l l f r o m y o u r a ffi d a v it t h a t y o u w e r e 20 a b l e to e s t a b l is h th a t n o p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s h a d b e e n f o ll o w e d in r e l a ti o n t o t h e ir a p p o i n t m e n t a t t h e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y a n d t h a t is a s S A E x p r e s s ’ p r o c u r e m e n t is concerned. Correct? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t. Page 172 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e n o w h a v e a s e c ti o n o f y o u r a ff id a v i t M r N g w e n y a t h a t i s h e a d e d “ T h e L i th u li H o u s e A m b u s h a n d th e R 3 m il li o n Br ib e ” . M r N g w e n y a I w o u ld lik e t o g o t h r o u g h t h a t . Can you t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d o n o r a b o u t 1 8 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 ? I k n o w t h a t i n th e c o u r s e o f th e r e m a in i n g p a g e s o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u g o i n to a g r e a t d e a l o f d e ta il a b o u t th e s t e p s y o u t o o k t o i d e n ti fy t h e p e o p le w h o y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i t h . F e e l fr e e t o – t o e x p l o r e t h a t b u t i n e s s e n c e t e l l u s w h a t happened on 18 August 2017 – 2016. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 2 0 1 6 . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A t t h a t t i m e I w a s s t il l r u n n i n g w i t h t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n . I h a d n o t y e t c o n c l u d e d o r … CHAIRPERSON: J u s t r a is e y o u r v o ic e a g a i n . I know it has been a lo n g d a y b u t ju s t tr y a n d r a is e y o u r v o ic e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y C h a ir. I a m s a y in g a t t h a t ti m e I w a s s ti ll – y o u k n o w – r u n n in g w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d a ll t h a t a n d o n t h a t p a r tic u l a r d a y I r e c e iv e d a c a l l a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 1 8 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 20 Ye s a n d I h o p e m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll o n t h e d a y b u t a n y w a y I h a v e i n d ic a te d t o s a y t h e – t h e it e m is e d b il li n g c a n b e – y o u k n o w – r e tr i e v e d t o a c tu a lly … C H A I R P E R S O N : C h e c k t h e d a te ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u a r e m is t a k e n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O n t h a t d a y C h a i r I r e c e iv e d a Page 173 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c a l l . N o w I h a v e g o t c a ll e r I D o n m y p h o n e . S o e v e n i f I d o n o t h a v e y o u r n u m b e r fo r a s l o n g a s i t is R ic a ’ d i t w i ll r e f le c t a s w h o y o u a r e . N o w o n th a t p a r ti c u l a r d a y I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m m y c o u n te r p a r t a t A b s a w h i c h i s th e H e a d o f S e c u r i t y – Mr J a s o n Ts h a b a l a l a – w h o happened to be the fo r m e r bodyguard of the l a te President M r N e l s o n M a n d e la . H e g a v e m e a c a ll a n d a t t h a t ti m e w h e n – w h e n h e c a l l e d i n t h a t p e r io d I w a s d e a l in g w i t h q u i t e a n u m b e r o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d w e h a d s u s p e n d e d a la d y w h o w a s w o r k in g f o r S A E x p r e s s a n d d u r i n g t h a t 10 ti m e t h e l a d y a l le g e d t h a t Mr Ts h a b a la la w a s a c tu a lly t h e c o u s i n . In a c t u a l f a c t s h e tr i e d t o in f lu e n c e m e t o t u r n a b l in d e y e o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r in v e s t i g a t io n . S h e w e n t o n to m e n ti o n t h a t I m u s t n o t w o r r y w i t h t h e f o o t a g e if i t is a v a il a b l e . M r Ts h a b a l a la w a s h e c o u s i n a n d h e c o u l d a s s is t – y o u k n o w – t o e r a s e t h e m o v e m e n t a n d a l l t h a t. S o w h e n i r e c e iv e d t h is c a ll … CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Yo u a r e t o o f a s t . I th in k I h a v e m is s e d something. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e g o – g o b a c k a li t tl e b i t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I a m s a y i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h a t d a y y o u r e c e iv e d a c a ll a n d y o u – y o u c o u ld t e ll w h o i t w a s w h o w a s p h o n i n g y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j u s t t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . Page 174 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o w m y t h i n k in g w h e n I s a w t h a t it w a s M r J a s o n Ts h a b a la l a w h o w a s c a l li n g my m i n d – i n m y m in d I t h o u g h t h e w a s t o a s k m e a b o u t th e l a d y - M s S u z e k a L o k w e – w h o w a s s u s p e n d e d a t th e ti m e . I t h o u g h t h e w a s g o i n g t o a s k m e a b o u t h e r – y o u k n o w – t a lk a b o u t h e r b e c a u s e b e f o r e w e s u s p e n d e d h e r t h e r e w a s a m a tt e r t h a t I w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g a n d - y o u k n o w – s h e m e n ti o n e d t h a t M r J a s o n Ts h a b a l a la – b e c a u s e o f t h a t p a r t s p o k e t o h e r m o v e m e n t – y o u k n o w – t o t h e a ir p o r t a n d a l l t h a t a n d I i n d i c a t e d t o s a y t h e r e is a f o o t a g e m o v e m e n t a n d a ll t h a t . S o s h e p e r s u a d e d m e t o t u r n a b l in d e y e a n d s h e t h e n 10 m e n ti o n e d to m e t h a t M r J a s o n Ts h a b a l a l a t h e H e a d o f S e c u r i ty w a s h e r cousin. S o a c c o r d i n g t o h e r M r Ts h a b a l a l a w a s g o i n g t o m a k e t h e f o o t a g e d is a p p e a r. Th a t w a s a c c o r d i n g t o h e r. Now when I received t h e c a ll a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s a f o o ta g e c o v e r in g w h a t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o it is s o m e t h i n g e l s e . CHAIRPERSON: Something else. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e n c e I a m s a y i n g i t is a n o t h e r t h i n g . S o i t w a s my ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t o k a y. W e d o n o t n e e d t o g o in t o i t b u t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is f o o ta g e t h a t y o u w e r e i n t e r e s te d i n l o o k in g a t o r n o t r e a ll y ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H m . Page 175 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you do not need to … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I t w a s a s e p a r a t e c a s e . I t w a s not … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t w a s a s e p a r a t e t h i n g , ja . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I a m ju s t tr y i n g t o r e l a y t h e story … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O f m y t h in k i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : So I thought he was to talk a b o u t t h a t b e c a u s e o f w h a t s h e t o l d m e b u t th a t w a s n o t th e c a s e . M r Ts h a b a l a l a i n f a c t s a i d to m e – h e g r e e te d m e n ic e l y. Ti m h o w a r e y o u ? I s a i d n o I a m o k a y a n d h e s a i d t o m e t h e r e is a g u y w h o w a n t s t o t a lk t o y o u c h ie f . Yo u k n o w – I s a i d t a lk to m e a b o u t w h a t . He said no man. H e ju s t w a n ts to t a lk t o y o u . I s a i d w h o i s th is p e r s o n . H e s a id n o h e is a b r o t h e r m a n . I m e a n y o u c a n – y o u k n o w – c h a t to t h e g u y. I c a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u k n e w M r Ts h a b a la la b e f o r e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ? 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : l k n e w M r Ts h a b a l a l a … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B u t w e a r e n o t c l o s e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : W e a r e i n th e v e r y s a m e s p a c e … Page 176 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A n d th e la s t ti m e I s p o k e t o h i m it w a s – w a y b a c k . A p p r o x i m a t e ly 2 0 1 3 / 1 4 w h e n I w a s – I w a s s t il l w o r k i n g f o r p r e v io u s c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . I t w a s t h e n a b o u t a c e r ta in in v e s t i g a t io n a n y o n e . S o i t is n o t a p e r s o n w h o w e – y o u k n o w – n o w w h e n h e c a l le d m e t h a t a l s o w a s li k e – J a s o n c a lli n g m e . W h e r e d i d h e g e t – g e t m y n u m b e r a n d a l l th a t . S o h e t o l d m e k n o w th is p e r s o n is a 10 b r o t h e r a n d c a s u a lly s o – y o u k n o w – a n d – a n d h o n e s t ly s p e a k i n g h e w a s n ic e . H e is a n ic e g u y. J a , h e w a n ts t o ta lk to y o u . I s a i d o k a y b u t w h o i s t h i s g u y. I s a id n o d o n o t w o r r y. H e is a b r o t h e r. H e w a n ts j u s t t o ta lk t o y o u . I s a i d o k a y fi n e . N o t a p r o b l e m . Yo u c a n g i v e h i m m y number but I got worried somehow to say I mean he did not speak a b o u t w h a t I t h o u g h t h e w o u l d r a is e . W h a t i s g o i n g o n h e r e ? C o u ld i t b e a b o u t t h i s N o r t h W e s t is s u e ? W e ll I d i d n o t k n o w a t t h e ti m e . A p p r o x i m a te ly 3 0 - 2 0 m i n u te s o r s o l a t e r I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m a n u n k n o w n p e r s o n a n d t h is p e r s o n i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t I g o t y o u r 20 n u m b e r f o r m M r J a s o n Ts h a b a la l a . I w o u l d li k e t o m e e t y o u a r o u n d t h e M i d r a n d a r e a th is a f te r n o o n . I n a c t u a l f a c t w h e n I k n o w o ff – y o u k n o w – f r o m w o r k - a r o u n d fi v e . CHAIRPERSON: B u t fr o m y o u r p h o n e y o u c o u l d t e ll w h o t h e c a ll e r was? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o I c o u l d n o t. I c o u l d n o t t e ll . Page 177 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I could not – it showed the n u m b e r. It d i d n o t s h o w t h e n a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . I t s h o w e d th e n u m b e r. I t d i d n o t s h o w t h e n a m e a n d I s a id to - t o t h is p e r s o n c h i e f I d o n o t k n o w y o u i n th e f ir s t p l a c e a n d y o u w a n t to m e e t w i t h m e i n M i d r a n d . Yo u d o not even greet me. I f e l t t h a t h e – h e w a s r u d e a c t u a ll y - y o u k n o w. Yo u a r e te ll i n g m e t h a t y o u g o t m y n u m b e r fr o m s o m e b o d y a n d t h e n e x t 10 t h i n g y o u w a n t t o – y o u w a n t to m e e t w i t h m e . I d o n o t k n o w y o u a n d a ll t h a t . H e s a i d t o m e n o I n e e d t o t a lk t o y o u C h ie f . I h a v e g o t a m a n d a t e . I n e e d to – t o t a lk to y o u . I s a i d C h i e f w h a t- w h a t m a n d a t e a r e y o u t a lk in g a b o u t . H e s a id n o I h a v e g o t a m a n d a t e fr o m L i t h u l i H o u s e . I ju s t w a n t t o t a l k to y o u . C a n w e m e e t ? I s a id I c a n n o t m e e t y o u i n M id r a n d . I c a n m e e t y o u i n th e a ir p o r t p r e c i n c t o r i n t h e E a s t R a n d m a ll t o w a r d s m y w a y h o m e b e c a u s e I a m a ( i n d is ti n c t ) b o y. I s t a y in th e ( in d is ti n c t) . Th e r e fo r e I c a n n o t b e d r i v i n g t o M id r a n d a n d a l l t h a t a n d y o u w a n t to t a lk to m e t h e r e f o r e y o u h a v e to s o r t o f c o m e t o m e . H e 20 s a i d o k a y fi n e . N o it is f in e I c a n m e e t y o u . I s a i d w h e r e c a n w e m e e t. H e s a i d n o I w i ll l e t y o u k n o w. I a m i n C a p e To w n r i g h t n o w b u t a s s o o n a s I g e t to t h e a i r p o r t I w o u l d te ll y o u e x a c t ly w h e r e w e c a n m e e t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . Page 178 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y ju s t in t e r j e c t th e r e . At page 26 p a r a g r a p h 7 3 y o u r e c o r d i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g e l s e t o t h i s c a ll e r w h e n h e s a i d t o y o u th a t h e h a d b e e n g iv e n a m a n d a te fr o m L i t h u li H o u s e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To c o m e a n d s p e a k t o y o u . What you record there is you say: “ I to l d h i m th a t I a m n o t a p o li t ic ia n … ” M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ … a n d c a n n o t b e t a lk i n g a b o u t L i t h u li House mandates.” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Th a t is c o r r e c t m a ’ a m . That is correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . P l e a s e c o n ti n u e . S o y o u s a i d t h a t . Yo u t h e n h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i t h h i m a b o u t w h e r e y o u c o u l d m e e t - a s I h a v e y o u r t e s ti m o n y … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h e s a i d h e i s g o i n g t o g e t o n to a p la n e a n d 20 c o m e in t o J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d s o y o u c o u l d m e e t a t th e a ir p o r t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t – t h a t – t h a t is c o r r e c t m a ’a m . T h a t i s e x a c t ly w h a t I s a i d a n d t h a t is w h a t h e t o l d m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d – a n d t h e n if w e – o n p a g e 2 7 … Page 179 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u – y o u t h e n p i c k u p t h a t p o in t a b o u t t h e – t h e i n d ic a ti o n t h a t h e g a v e y o u t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e f ly in g u p fr o m C a p e To w n . Yo u w ill s e e th a t a t p a r a g r a p h 7 5 b e c a u s e t h r e e y o u s a y : “ I n th e s p a c e o f a b o u t a n h o u r a n d 3 0 m i n u t e s t h e caller called me again and said he was in Johannesburg and asked if we could meet.” D o y o u a t t a c h a n y s i g n i fi c a n c e to t h a t p e r i o d o f t i m e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t m a ’a m . T h e r e is 10 n o w a y t h a t y o u c a n f ly f r o m C a p e To w n t o J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d b e o u t s i d e a t e r m i n a l b u i l d i n g w i t h i n a p e r i o d o f o n e h o u r 3 0 m i n u te s . I t is i m p o s s i b le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t n o n e t h e l e s s … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : S o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e w a s c a l li n g y o u fr o m t h e t e r m i n a l b u i ld i n g . C o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e w a s a c t u a l ly – a b s o l u t e ly. H e w a s a t t h e t e r m i n a l b u il d in g a n d t h e s t o r y t h a t h e w a s i n C a p e To w n c le a r ly it is n o t tr u e . T h e r e is n o w a y t h e r e is n o w a y. I t h i n k t h a t is 20 t h a t is th e p a r t t h a t I h a d a c tu a l ly e x p o s e d h i m t o m e th a t h e w a s n o t r e a l ly t e l li n g t h e tr u t h b e c a u s e I m e a n I a m w o r k i n g in t h a t s p a c e . I k n o w t h e d u r a ti o n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A n d a ll th a t o f t h e fl ig h ts a n d a l l that. Page 180 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u th e n d i d a g r e e t o m e e t h i m i n t h e I n t e r c o n ti n e n t a l H o te l f o y e r. I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u t e ly. T h a t is w h e r e h e t o l d m e t h a t h e w o u l d b e w a i ti n g f o r m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n a s I h a v e y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u – y o u w e n t t o m e e t h i m . O n y o u r w a y h o w e v e r y o u to ld M s M s h w e l e t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o m e e t a p e r s o n w h o h a d c a l l e d y o u . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is – t h a t i s c o r r e c t . T h a t is correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n y o u w e n t t o t h e I n t e r c o n t in e n ta l ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : When – as I went to the I n t e r c o n ti n e n t a l – a t t h a t j u n c t u r e I m u s t s a y I w a s a b i t w o r r i e d a n d you know – I thought that you know what I need to play smart – smart a n d s a f e – y o u k n o w – i n a p p r o a c h i n g th is w h o le t h in g . So I moved fr o m t h e a ir w a y s p a r t t o w a r d s t h e a ir p o r t b u t t h e r e is – t h e r e i s a n e n tr a n c e to t h e a ir s i d e w h e r e w o r k e r s – y o u k n o w - o n ly w o r k e r s – y o u 20 k n o w – a r e a c t u a ll y e n t e r i n g t h e a ir s i d e . I w e n t t o th a t a ir s i d e – y o u k n o w – j u s t t o b e s a f e to w a l k w i t h i n t h e a ir s i d e – y o u k n o w – to w a r d s th e I n te r c o n t in e n ta l . O b v i o u s ly I w o u l d g e t i n t o t h e t e r m i n a l b u il d i n g a n d g o o u t t h r o u g h t h e t e r m i n a l b u il d in g b u t w h il e I w a s w a lk i n g t h e r e b e c a u s e h e h a d a lr e a d y g i v e n m e t h e d e s c r ip t io n a n d th e l o c a t io n . Page 181 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 I p h o n e d m y a s s o c ia t e a s - I m e a n - I a m in t h e s e c u r i ty s e c t o r s o I p h o n e d m y a s s o c i a te t o s a y g u y s I h a v e g o t a s i tu a ti o n . I n e e d to c o v e r f o r m e b e c a u s e in t h i s r e g a r d I t h i n k th is m a y b e a n a m b u s h o f s o m e s o r t . I r e a ll y d o n o t tr u s t . C a n y o u k i n d ly e s t a b l is h a s t o w h e th e r t h i s p e r s o n is t h e r e a n d – y o u k n o w – a n d t h e g u y s a s I w a lk in g . It took me some time. A s I w a s w a lk i n g t h e y w e n t a n d c h e c k e d a n d t h e y c a ll e d m e a s I g o t o n to th e te r m i n a l b u il d i n g o r a p p r o a c h i n g th e t e r m in a l b u il d i n g . 10 T h e y in f o r m e d m e t o s a y – y o u k n o w – y e s t h e p e r s o n i s s i t t in g th e r e i n t h e f o y e r b u t t h e r e w e r e t w o g u y s w h o w e r e s t a n d i n g – y o u k n o w – r i g h t n e x t to h i m . Just a few m e tr e s a w a y fr o m h i m a n d it a p p e a r s t h a t t h e y a r e – y o u k n o w – t o g e th e r w i t h th is g u y. S o b e w e a r y o f t h a t . N o w a s I c a m e a n d o b v io u s ly th e y – t h e y w e r e w a tc h i n g b e c a u s e o f – I w a s n o t r e a l ly – I f e l t t h a t – y o u k n o w – I c a n n o t r e a lly c o m p r o m is e m y s a fe ty j u s t l ik e t h a t . S o a s I – I c a m e i n I p h o n e d t h e g u y w h i l e I w a s i n s id e t h e b u il d in g – t h e t e r m i n a l b u i l d i n g – b u t I c o u l d s e e h i m t h r o u g h t h e g la s s to s a y h e y c h i e f I a m h e r e . W h e r e a r e y o u a n d I c o u ld s e e w h e n h e p ic k e d u p th e p h o n e 20 a n d w h e n I lo o k e d o n th e s id e I s a w t h e t w o g u y s . T h e n I w e n t t h r o u g h b u t I w a s w e a r i n g – y o u k n o w – a c o a t w i th th a t c a p – y o u k n o w – tr y i n g t o d is g u is e i n a w a y. Yo u k n o w – s o t h a t i f w a lk in g fr o m a ir w a y s p a r k t o t h e g a t e i f t h e r e is s o m e o n e p e r h a p s w h o i s w a i t in g f o r m e th e r e t o d o s o m e t h i n g th e y m a y n o t b e a b le t o s o r t o f r e c o g n is e m e . S o I w e n t t o h i m a n d h e w a s s it t in g t h e r e . I g r e e t e d h i m . H e Page 182 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 g r e e t e d m e b a c k a n d h e s a i d – I th in k h is n a m e i f I a m c o r r e c t – I t h i n k h e w a s Si p h o . H e m e n ti o n e d – I th in k - a s u r n a m e b u t I c a n n o t j u s t recall the surname. T h e n w e s a t a n d h e s a i d t o m e c h ie f I a m fr o m L u t h u l i H o u s e a n d I h a v e b e e n g iv e n a m a n d a t e t o t a lk t o y o u p e r t a in in g y o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n th e N o r t h W e s t a n d I s a id t o h i m L u t h u li House. W h a t d o I h a v e t o d o w it h th e – t h e m a n d a t e s fr o m L u t h u li H o u s e b e c a u s e I a m n o t a p o li ti c i a n ? I a m n o t i n t e r e s te d i n p o li ti c s . H e s a i d n o it i s a b o u t th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u c o n d u c ti n g . 10 L i s te n c h i e f th e m o n e y t h a t is s ip h o n e d – y o u k n o w – th e Ex p r e s s t h e m o n e y t h a t i s i n q u e s ti o n h e r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y a n d th is w a s i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is in A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r v a n W y k h a d d is a p p e a r e d o n 1 J u l y … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : J u l y y e s . CHAIRPERSON: 2016? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u r i n v e s t i g a t io n w a s s ti ll o n g o i n g ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h is is a p e r s o n th a t I d id n o t k n o w. I d id n o t m e e t th is p e r s o n – y o u k n o w – e v e n p r e v i o u s ly. S o h e s a i d to m e h e w a s g iv e n t h is m a n d a t e b e c a u s e o f t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s in v o lv e d . T h e m o n e y t h a t w a s t a k e n o u t – y o u k n o w – s ip h o n e d fr o m t h is – w a s m e a n t t o – t o fi n a n c e t h e p o l it ic a l a c ti v i ti e s o f t h e A N C . Page 183 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 I s a i d c h i e f th a t h a s a b s o l u te ly n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m e . My c o n c e r n h e r e is Mr B r i a n v a n W y k w h o m a n i p u l a te d th e s y s te m a n d tr a n s g r e s s e d . Express. M y f o c u s is o n e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d w i th i n S A A s to w h o e ls e is i n v o lv e d o u t o f S A E x p r e s s t h a t h a s a b s o l u t e ly n o t h i n g to d o w i t h m e a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o k n o w a n y th i n g about it. H e s a i d c h ie f c o m e o n . W e n e e d y o u to ta lk t h i s . Do you k n o w h o w M r Br i a n v a n W y k g o t t h is s u r n a m e ? I s a id ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d – I a m s o r r y. W h e n h e s a i d t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s t a k e n o u t d i d h e – w h ic h m o n e y w a s h e t a l k i n g a b o u t a n d b e i n g 10 t a k e n o u t fr o m w h e r e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h e m o n e y t h a t w a s i n q u e s ti o n it is a ll a b o u t th e R 3 1 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o w h e is s a y in g I m u s t d r o p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h e w a s s a y i n g y o u m u s t d r o p th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : I m u s t d r o p th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B e c a u s e th e m o n e y in v o lv e d w a s t o f u n d t h e p o l it ic a l a c tiv i ti e s o f t h e A N C a n d I s a id I a m n o t a p o li t ic i a n . I h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o w i th t h a t a n d a s fa r a s th is w h o le t h i n g is concerned M r Br ia n v a n W y k m a n ip u la t e d tr a n s g r e s s e d . Page 184 of 196 the system and he 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 My concern was Mr Brian van Wyk because of – you know – h e w a s w o r k i n g f o r S A Ex p r e s s a n d a n y t h i n g o u t o f S A E x p r e s s w a s a c t u a ll y n o n e o f m y b u s in e s s a n d I w a s n o t in t e r e s t e d b e c a u s e I a m n o t a p o l i tic i a n . I d o n o t e v e n in t e n d t o b e c o m e o n e . S o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N g w e n y a … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t c l a r i fy ? Yo u – y o u i n d ic a t e d i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y a m o m e n t a g o t h a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o th e m o n e y s ip h o n e d out of the North West. 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t r i g h t ? Is th a t t h e w o r d h e u s e d ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o m e a g a in m a ’ a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t t h e w o r d h e u s e d ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly m a ’a m , a b s o l u t e ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d – a n d w h a t … M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : To s a y – to b e – t o b e p r e c is e . H e s a id t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s m o v e d o u t o f N o r t h W e s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n h e w e n t o n t o s a y w a s t o b e u s e d t o f u n d th e A N C ’s p o l i tic a l c a m p a ig n . 20 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C a m p a i g n s , e x a c tly y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o , j u s t b e fo r e w e l e a v e t h a t p o in t t h e s ig n if ic a n c e i n t h e q u e s ti o n M s H o f m e y r w a s p u t t in g t o y o u w h e t h e r th e w o r d th a t t h i s p e r s o n u s e d w a s s ip h o n e d o u t , m o n e y w a s s i p h o n e d o u t , a n d y o u i n i ti a l ly s a i d y e s , b u t th e n y o u s a i d , h e s a i d m o n e y t h a t w a s Page 185 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 moved. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w I w a n t y o u t o i n d ic a t e w h e t h e r y o u a r e u s i n g w h e n y o u s a y it w a s m o v e d y o u a r e u s i n g t h e w o r d t h a t t h is p e r s o n used or you are using your own word to describe what he said to you. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : O k a y s ip h o n e d i t i s m y o w n word. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 10 S i p h o n is m y o w n w o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x p r e s s i n g i t t h e w a y y o u u n d e r s t o o d it . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : The money that was moved fr o m t h e N o r th w e s t y e s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M r N g w e n y a d i d y o u h a v e a n y d o u b t in t h e c o u r s e o f th is c o n v e r s a t i o n th a t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t R 3 1 m i ll io n ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : N o I d id n ’t h a v e a n y d o u b t m a ’a m f o r t h e s i m p l e r e a s o n t h a t h e s p o k e a b o u t M r v a n W y k a n d Mr 20 v a n W y k w a s i n v o lv e d i n th e R 3 1 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, i t ’s q u it e a n i m p o r t a n t p a r t , s o j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n , d i d y o u g r e e t , y o u fi n d h i m t h e r e , y o u g r e e t , a n d what does he say to you? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e h a d a m a n d a te fr o m t h e Page 186 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 L u t u l i H o u s e t o ta lk to m e p e r t a in in g th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t I’ m r u n n i n g a g a in s t M r B r ia n v a n W y k w h ic h in v o lv e d t h e m o n e y th a t w a s m o v e d fr o m t h e N o r t h w e s t a n d t h a t m o n e y w a s u s e d to f in a n c e th e A N C p o li t ic a l c a m p a ig n s y o u k n o w t h o s e a c ti v i ti e s , s o i n a w a y h e w a s s a y in g t h i s w a s n o t M r B r i a n v a n W y k ’s m o n e y, it w a s a c t u a l ly t h e A N C ’s m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: I k n o w t h a t i t’s b e e n w h a t t h r e e y e a r s o r f o u r y e a r s s in c e t h e n , I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e to ’i n g a n d fr o ’ in g o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f y o u , if p o s s i b le , b u t it m i g h t n o t b e 10 p o s s i b le . Yo u s a y t h i s m o n e y, th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t y o u a r e i n v o lv e d in , th a t y o u a r e c o n d u c ti n g c o n c e r n in g M r v a n W y k , c o n c e r n s m o n e y that was moved from the Northwest Government which was meant for f u n d i n g A N C a c ti v i t ie s . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d d o e s i t s a y y o u m u s t d r o p t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r w h a t h a p p e n e d , I j u s t w a n t t o f o l lo w h o w t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : Ye s C h a ir, I w a s a b o u t t o g e t t o t h a t p a r t a s w e ll . T h e i n t e n t io n o f t a l k in g to m e a t t h a t ju n c t u r e h e 20 s a i d t h i s m o n e y w a s t o fu n d th a t , a n d th e n h e s a i d Mr B r i a n v a n W y k i n a c t u a l f a c t w a s a c tu a lly th a t ’s my i n t e r p r e ta t io n h e w a s th e v e h ic l e to g e t t h e m o n e y o u t a n d c h a n n e l i t t o w a r d s t h o s e a c t iv i t ie s o f t h e A N C , b e c a u s e h e e v e n w e n t o n to s a y y o u k n o w h o w h e o b t a i n e d t h e s u r n a m e v a n W y k , b e c a u s e h e is v e r y d a r k y o u k n o w, a n d I s a id I d o n ’ t w a n t to k n o w, h e t h e n s a i d t o m e w e c a n o ff e r y o u R 3 m il li o n t o d r o p Page 187 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n . My response to him was that S A Express was p a y i n g m e a d e q u a t e l y, t h e r e f o r e I n e e d n o t t a k e a n y m o n e y fr o m a n y o n e . H e tr i e d t o p e r s u a d e m e a n d I t o l d h i m s tr a i g h t t h a t I w a s n ’ t r e a l ly i n t e r e s t e d . N o w h e m o v e d fr o m t h a t s u b j e c t t o ta lk a b o u t th e R 2 0 m i ll io n t h a t w a s s t ill y o u k n o w i n t h e K o r e n e k e a c c o u n t a n d a t t h a t ti m e M r G u ll y S i lli r a [ ? ] a n d M r B r ia n v a n W y k th e y h a d n o a c c e s s t o t h a t m o n e y b e c a u s e M s Tl a ts a n a m o v e d th a t m o n e y to a n o th e r a c c o u n t b e c a u s e o f w h e n t h e c o n fl ic t s t a r te d b e t w e e n t h e m l a t e r o n th e r e w a s a d e p o s it o f R 2 0 m il li o n fr o m t h e N o r th w e s t , s o s h e m o v e d th a t m o n e y s o 10 t h e y c o u ld n o t h a v e a c c e s s p r e v e n t in g th e m t o th a t a c c e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ngwenya could I just stop you there if I m a y, b e c a u s e i t ’s a p a r t t h a t c o m e s u p in t h e r e c o r d in g s b u t i t ’s n o t a n a s p e c t t h a t y o u t r a v e r s e i n y o u r e v i d e n c e y e t , s o c o u l d w e j u s t g e t it c le a r y o u h a v e b y th is s t a g e , y o u ’r e i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e b e e n a b le t o a c c o u n t fo r th e R 3 1 m i ll io n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s . Because you have gone back to the records of S A E x p r e s s a n d y o u ’v e s e e n th a t t o ta l a m o u n t b e i n g p a i d o u t o f S A E x p r e s s p u r s u a n t t o fo u r in v o ic e s a n d th r e e p a y m e n ts , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly, a b s o lu t e l y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t C h a i r y o u w i ll r e c a ll a n d w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t t h a t s u b s i d y p a g e u n d e r th e m a i n a g r e e m e n t , th e fir s t to t a l a n n u a l a m o u n t th a t K o r e n e k a w a s s u p p o s e d t o r e c e iv e o r t h e m a n a g e m e n t Page 188 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c o m p a n y to b e a p p o i n te d w a s a t o t a l o f R 5 1 m i ll io n , s o a t t h i s p o in t y o u ’v e a c c o u n t e d f o r R 3 1 m il li o n o f it w h ic h w a s p a i d o u t o f S A E x p r e s s b u t t h e r e ’s a r e m a i n i n g R 2 0 m il li o n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . B u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e r e c o r d i n g s a n d w h a t M s T la ts a n a t o ld y o u t h a t R 2 0 m i ll io n c a m e th e n i n a p a y m e n t d i r e c t ly fr o m t h e N o r th w e s t to K o r e n e k a c o r r e c t? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a t is c o r r e c t m a ’ a m , t h a t is correct. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I r e c a l l t h a t r e c o r d i n g w h ic h w e w ill lis t e n to th a t o c c u r r e d i n t h e S p u r R e s ta u r a n t p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n M s Tl a ts a n a a n d M r a n d Mr v a n W y k is a b o u t R 2 0 m il li o n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b s o l u t e ly. W h i c h M s T la t s a n a w a s n o t g iv i n g M r v a n W y k a c c e s s t o , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t is c o r r e c t m a ’a m . S o C h a ir t h a t ’s i m p o r t a n t b a c k g r o u n d b e c a u s e n o w w e m o v e to a p o in t in t h i s c o n v e r s a ti o n a s I h a v e i t w i t h t h is p e r s o n y o u ’v e b e e n c a ll e d t o m e e t w it h w h e r e h e m o v e s fr o m o ffe r i n g 20 y o u R 3 m il li o n t o d r o p t h e in v e s ti g a t io n to t h is R 2 0 m i ll i o n . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . And what does he say about that? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : H e s a i d o n t h e R 2 0 m il li o n th a t t h e r e ’s a R 2 0 m i ll io n o f c o u r s e t h a t w a s w i t h i n t h e K o r e n e k a c o n tr a c t a n d it w a s c l e a r th a t th e y d id n o t h a v e a c c e s s to i t. H e s a id t o m e h e Page 189 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 u n d e r s t a n d s th a t I h a v e g o t a b e tt e r u n d e r s t a n d in g w it h M s Tl a ts a n a s o I n e e d e d t o p e r s u a d e h e r to le t g o o f t h e m o n e y, r e l e a s e t h e m o n e y o r s h e m u s t m o v e o u t o f th e a ir p o r t , y o u k n o w t o l e a v e th a t s p a c e , a n d m y response to him was that I have nothing to do, I am not part of K o r e n e k a a n d I c a n n o t e n te r t a i n s u c h , I d o n ’ t h a v e e v e n t h e m a n d a t e t o d e a l w i th s u c h , I b l a ta n tl y r e f u s e d y o u k n o w t o e n t e r t a i n th o s e i s s u e s , s o h e s a id t o m e I m e a n th i n k a b o u t it c h i e f, y o u k n o w t h e R 3 m il li o n , I s a i d l is t e n c h i e f I d o m y j o b w i t h o u t f e a r, f a v o u r o r p r e j u d ic e a n d m y m a n d a t e h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i th t h e p o l it ic a l d e a l in g s a n d g e t ti n g 10 in v o lv e d in o t h e r c o m p a n i e s a ff a ir s , s o I a m n o t in t e r e s t e d . He says y o u m u s t t h i n k a b o u t i t , I s a i d t o h i m e v e n i f I c a n t h i n k a b o u t it th e answer would remain the same, no. A n d w e e n d e d u p p a r ti n g w a y s , h e l e f t a n d I l e ft . C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r th e d u r a ti o n o f y o u r d is c u s s io n w i t h h i m w e r e t h e t w o o th e r p e o p le t h a t b e f o r e y o u c a m e to t a lk t o h i m h a d s e e m e d to b e w i t h h i m , w e r e t h e y w i t h h i m o r w e r e th e y i n th e v ic in i ty o r w e r e t h e y n o lo n g e r t h e r e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Yo u k n o w C h a ir t o b e q u it e h o n e s t w it h y o u a s I a r r iv e d t h e y w e r e t h e r e , b u t a t t h e t i m e w h e n w e 20 w e r e ta lk in g I h a d a c tu a l ly fo r g o t te n a b o u t t h e m . M y m in d s h i f te d , I d i d n o t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r w h e n y o u fi n i s h e d t h e y were there or not? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I did not think about them but yes. Page 190 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ngwenya you are now as I have your e v i d e n c e a t p a g e 2 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t , I h a v e b e e n f o l lo w i n g w h a t w a s c o n ta in e d t h e r e a s y o u ’ v e b e e n g iv i n g y o u r t e s ti m o n y w h e r e I w o u l d lik e t o a s k y o u to p ic k i t u p a n d r e a l ly in c o n c l u s io n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e is paragraph 80, because at paragraph 80 you talk about the steps you t o o k in th e f o l l o w i n g w e e k a n d w h a t th e r e a c ti o n s w e r e o f M s M o c h o e le a n d M r N t s h a n g a t o w h a t y o u to ld t h e m , c a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t please. 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . On that week, it was around the 23rd or 25th you know of August and I was with Ms Mochoele a n d Mr N ts h a n g a , i t w a s i n h i s o ffi c e a c tu a l ly w h e r e I t h i n k Mr N ts h a n g a a c tu a lly a s k e d a s t o h o w d i d m y m e e t i n g a n d t h e g u y t h a t I m e t fr o m L u t u li H o u s e w e n t b e c a u s e M s M o c h o e l e i n fo r m e d h i m t h a t I w a s m e e ti n g s o m e g u y s a n d a ll t h a t, b e c a u s e I d id n o t ta lk t o h i m a b o u t y o u k n o w m e m e e t i n g t h e g u y, s o I i n f o r m e d Ms M o c h o e l e , s o M s M o c h o e l e t o ld h i m t h a t I m e t t h e g u y, s o h e w a s a s k i n g a s t o h o w it w e n t a n d I n a r r a te d th e s t o r y a s t o w h a t tr a n s p ir e d w h a t w a s t h e g u y y o u k n o w w h a t e x a c t ly d i d h e w a n t fr o m m e a n d a ll t h a t, a n d I i n d ic a te d 20 t h a t y o u k n o w t h e c o n n e c t i o n b e t w e e n m e a n d th e g u y w a s c r e a t e d b y M r J a s o n Ts h a b a l a la w h o is th e h e a d o f s e c u r i ty a t A C S A , a n d M r N ts h a n g a ’s r e a c t io n w a s th a t J a s o n Ts h a b a la la w h o is t h i s J a s o n Ts h a b a l a l a , a n d I e x p l a i n e d to h i m t h a t h e is t h e h e a d o f s e c u r it y a t A C S A . H e s a i d I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e g u y, o h y o u d o n ’ t k n o w t h e g u y, j a , I d o n ’t k n o w t h e g u y, w h o i s t h a t , a n d y o u k n o w w h i le I w a s tr y in g to Page 191 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 e x p l a i n w e e n d e d u p t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e m o v i e In v i c t o r s , y o u k n o w th e I n v i c t o r s t h e r u g b y, a n d M a d i b a i n t h a t m o v i e w h e r e M r J a s o n Ts h a b a l a l a a n d M r L i n g a M o ts a n e fr o m S A E x p r e s s i s th e b o d y g u a r d o f t h e P r e s i d e n t t h e y w e r e p la y e d b y To n y K g o r o g e a n d P a tr ic k M o f o k e n g s o w e s p o k e a b o u t th a t y o u k n o w w h e r e h e p r e s e n te d a s i f h e d i d n ’ t k n o w, b u t li t tl e d i d h e k n o w t h a t I w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e y w e r e q u i te c lo s e b e c a u s e I h a v e s e e n t h e m b e f o r e y o u k n o w s e e n t o g e th e r, w i t h i n t h e a ir p o r t p r e c i n c t , s o h e p r e t e n d e d a s if h e d i d n ’ t k n o w, b u t l a t e r o n h e m a d e a m is t a k e b y s a y i n g h e y J a s o n a n y w a y h e l o s t h is f a th e r a n d y o u 10 k n o w I c o u l d n o t a t t e n d t h e f u n e r a l b e c a u s e I e n g a g e m e n ts , a n d s o t h a t n u ll i fi e d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e s a id b e f o r e y o u k n o w t h a t h e d i d n ’ t k n o w t h is g u y, p r e te n d i n g a s i f h e d i d n ’ t k n o w h i m , s o i t w a s a l l a b o u t t h a t , b u t t o a c e r ta i n e x te n t i t g a v e a d i ffe r e n t p ic t u r e t o m e y o u k n o w a b o u t him. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h o s e a r e th e q u e s ti o n s fr o m o u r s i d e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , th a n k y o u . W o u l d th e r e h a v e b e e n c a m e r a s t o c a p tu r e y o u a n d th is m a n t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e R 3 m i ll i o n b r i b e t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n th e r e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : 20 I’ m n o t s u r e C h a ir b u t t h e r e ’s p l e n t y c a m e r a s a r o u n d t h a t s p a c e , s o w h e t h e r a r e a is c o v e r e d I a m n o t r e a l ly s u r e b u t a ls o i t’s n o t g o i n g to b e p o s s i b l e to r e tr i e v e th o s e r e c o r d s b e c a u s e o f t h e . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f th e ti m e li n e . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : B e c a u s e o f t h e ti m e li n e y e s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t ’s t h e ti m e l a p s e , w h a t ’s t h e ti m e w i t h i n w h ic h Page 192 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 o n e h a s g o t t o g e t t h e m b e f o r e t h e y l a p s e , b e f o r e th e y become u n a v a il a b l e ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : cases th e footage that if we I t a l l d e p e n d s s i r a n d in m o s t request ( in a u d i b l e ) yes and . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o a n d a h a l f y e a r s o r s o f r o m A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 is n ’ t it ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C o m e a g a in s ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e t w o a n d a h a l f y e a r s o r s o a w a y fr o m t h e d a te w h e n th is i n c i d e n t o c c u r r e d in A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 , is n ’t t h a t w i t h i n ti m e ? 10 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : N o y o u c a n o n ly r e tr ie v e 3 0 days back. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : D a t in g b a c k t o 3 0 d a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u ’r e s u r e o f t h a t . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A n d s o m e o f – y e s b e c a u s e o f I v ie w e d th e f o o t a g e a n d g o t p le n ty o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t I c o n d u c t t h a t – w h e r e w e a ls o r e tr ie v e d t h e fo o t a g e a n d a l l o f th a t , s o I a m c e r ta i n a r o u n d t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , I’ m wondering why you m ig h t not have c o n s i d e r e d it n e c e s s a r y s o o n a f t e r t h e e n c o u n t e r w it h th is m a n t o tr y a n d a t l e a s t g e t h is p i c tu r e b e c a u s e t h is w a s s o m e b o d y w h o w a s – w h o s o u g h t to b r ib e y o u . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : C h a ir I d i d n o t t h i n k o f i t h o w e v e r w h e n I r e c e iv e d t h e c a ll b e f o r e I w e n t a n d m e t t h e g u y, b e c a u s e o f 3 0 m in u t e s a f te r I w a s c a l le d b y M r Ts h a b a la la 3 0 m i n u t e s Page 193 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 la t e r I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m t h i s g u y a n d h e to l d m e th a t h e w il l te ll m e a b o u t h is l o c a ti o n a t th e a ir p o r t . I s t a r t e d t o t h in k a s t o w h o m ig h t h a v e y o u n o w g a v e M r Ts h a b a l a l a m y c o n t a c t a n d t h e p e r s o n th a t I t h o u g h t a b o u t a t t h e t i m e w a s M r L in g a M o o n s a m y w h o is th e h e a d o f s e c u r i ty a t S A A a n d w e w e r e v e r y c lo s e , a n d I fi g u r e d o u t t h a t b o th t h e b o d y b o d y g u a r d o f t h e l a t e p r e s i d e n t , N e ls o n M a n d e l a , t h e r e f o r e I d e c i d e d t o g o s tr a ig h t t o M r L i n g a M o o n s a m y t o a s k i f h e h a d g i v e n M r Ts h a b a l a l a m y c o n t a c t a n d h e a g r e e d , h e c o n fir m e d t o s a y ja n o h e c a l l e d m e a n d h e r e q u e s t e d y o u c o n ta c t, I g a v e t h e c o n t a c t to h i m . I 10 s a i d to h i m y o u k n o w t h e r e ’s a p r o b l e m , t h is is t h e s i t u a t io n , t h e r e ’s a g u y t h a t c a ll e d m e a n d b e c a u s e o f J a s o n c r e a t e d y o u k n o w th e p la t f o r m f o r t h e g u y t o h a v e a c c e s s to m e a n d y o u g a v e th e n u m b e r, h e s a i d w h a t is th is a ll a b o u t , I s a i d n o I d o n ’ t k n o w b u t th e r e is a m a t t e r t h a t I am busy with which I think to a certain extent you might have a bit of a k n o w l e d g e a n d h e w a s r e a l ly c o n c e r n e d t o s a y y o u k n o w w h a t I g a v e t h e n u m b e r t o J a s o n b e c a u s e I th o u g h t w e a r e in th e v e r y s a m e s e c u r i ty y o u k n o w – w h a t ’s th e w o r d t h a t I w a n t to u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’ r e b o t h i n t h e s e c u r i t y s e c t o r. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : 20 S e c t o r a b s o l u t e ly y e s , t h a t w e a r e a ll i n th e s e c u r i ty s e c t o r. CHAIRPERSON: S o M r J a s o n Ts h a b a la l a w o u ld k n o w t h e id e n ti ty o f t h is p e r s o n t h a t y o u m e t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e h e i s th e o n e w h o a r r a n g e d f o r th e t w o o f y o u t o m e e t. Page 194 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : A b s o l u te ly s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t d i d y o u e v e r a s k h i m w h a t ’s th e n a m e o f th a t p e r s o n y o u w a n te d m e to m e e t , d i d y o u e v e r a s k M r Ts h a b a la l a ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : A t t h e t i m e w h e n I a s k e d h i m h e d i d n o t d is c l o s e th e g u y ’s n a m e , h e s a i d it ’s a b r o t h e r th a t w a n ts t o t a l k to you he didn’t even say as to what was the subject. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h a t w a s a t t h e t i m e b e f o r e y o u m e t t h e g u y. M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n a f te r y o u h a d m e t t h e g u y d id y o u g o b a c k t o 10 h i m t o s a y . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : To d a t e I h a v e n ’ t s p o k e n t o h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t th a t h e w o u l d w a n t t o t a lk to somebody who sent somebody who sought to bribe you? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : I d i d n o t t a lk t o h i m t o d a t e , s o m e t i m e s w e m e e t i n t h e s e w o r k s h o p s y o u k n o w, b u t w e ’r e n o t c lo s e . H e is th e o n e . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and the number that he used to call you would it s t il l b e a v a il a b l e s o m e h o w ? M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H L A N G W E N YA : 20 I suppose so, I didn’t have his n u m b e r C h a ir a t t h a t p a r tic u la r j u n c t u r e h o w e v e r I w e n t b a c k to s o r t h i s c o n ta c t w h ic h I t h in k is t h e v e r y s a m e n u m b e r t h a t h e u s e d , a n d I g a v e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s ti g a ti o n f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f r e tr i e v i n g th e it e m is e d b il li n g to r e f le c t th e c o n n e c t io n b e t w e e n t h e g u y, m y s e lf a n d him. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a t ’s f i n e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v in g Page 195 of 196 19 JUNE 2019 – DAY 115 c o m e to g iv e e v i d e n c e i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n , w e h a v e h a d o v e r t h e p a s t t w o d a y s o r s o , o r th r e e d a y s , I’ m n o t s u r e , n o t w o d a y s , t w o d a y s , t h r e e p e o p l e , t w o o f w h o m a r e p a s t o ffic i a ls o f a p a r a s ta t a l w h o h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a t S A A a n d s o o n a n d to d a y y o u h a v e a l s o g i v e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h i n g s th a t h a p p e n e d a t S A Ex p r e s s , a n d y o u d e a l t w i th i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t r e la t e to t a x p a y e r s m o n e y b e i n g d iv e r t e d a w a y fr o m w h e r e i t s h o u l d g o , s o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u m a y b e a s k e d to c o m e b a c k i n th e f u t u r e , a n d I h a v e n o d o u b t y o u w il l c o m e b a c k i f y o u a r e a s k e d b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m in g t o 10 s h a r e y o u r e v id e n c e w i th t h e C o m m is s i o n , a n d y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M R T I M O T H Y N H L A N H LA N G W E N YA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: We are done? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e d o n e , I u n d e r s t a n d w e h a v e a n e a r ly s t a r t to m o r r o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t o m o r r o w w e a r e g o i n g to s ta r t a t e i g h t o ’c lo c k a n d w e w il l g o u p t o e l e v e n o ’c l o c k b e c a u s e f o r t h e r e s t o f t h e d a y I w il l n o t b e a v a i la b le , s o w e a r e s t a r ti n g e a r ly t o tr y a n d m a k e u s e o f w h a t e v e r ti m e is a v a i l a b le a n d th e n o n Fr id a y w e w i ll s t a r t a t s o m e 20 s t a g e l a te r t h a n u s u a l , b u t I w il l in d ic a t e m a y b e t o m o r r o w w h a t ti m e w e w i ll b e lo o k i n g a t. W e w i ll a d j o u r n th e n f o r to d a y a n d t h e n t o m o r r o w e start at eight. We adjourn. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 0 J U N E 2 0 1 9 Page 196 of 196