C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 20 JANUARY 2020 D AY 2 0 1 20 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 20 JANUARY 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C : C h a ir t h e l e g a l te a m w is h e s t o l e a d t h e e v i d e n c e M e s s r s W h i te a n d D u P l o o y i n th e n e x t fe w d a y s . O n e o r t w o o f th e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s a r e M r a n d Mr s S h a b a la l a . T h e ir c o u n s e l M s S h a z i i s h e r e ; w i s h e s t o b r in g a n a p p l i c a ti o n to s ta y t h e e v i d e n c e in t e n d e d t o b e l e d . M a y s h e a d d r e s s y o u ? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . C o m e a n d a d d r e s s m e fr o m h e r e M s S h a z i . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS KHUMBU s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d . S H A Z I: C h a ir our a p p lic a ti o n is simple and W e a p o l o g is e fi r s tl y fo r n o t p r e p a r i n g a s u b s ta n ti v e a p p lic a ti o n ; w e d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h ti m e s in c e r e c e i v i n g o u r n o t ic e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W e r e c e iv e d n o t ic e s o n – o r m y c l ie n ts r e c e iv e d t h e ir n o ti c e s o n th e 9 J a n u a r y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W h ic h w a s t h e T h u r s d a y b e f o r e l a s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t w a n t to c o n fi r m t h a t y o u a r e a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f M r a n d M s S h a b a la l a ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t p u t th e i r n a m e s o n r e c o r d ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I t is S ip h o D e r r ic k S h a b a l a l a . Page 2 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d B e a tr i c e N th o m b e n h l e S h a b a la la . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a n d y o u r in s t r u c ti n g a t t o r n e y s ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I t is D M a ll o y a n d a s s o c ia t e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t . T h a n k y o u . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Fr o m D u r b a n . A s I w a s i n d ic a ti n g th e y r e c e iv e d t h e ir n o ti c e s o n th e 9 t h a n d t h e y f o u n d t h e i r w a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e R u le 3 .3 N o ti c e s ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h e R u l e 3 . 3 .N o ti c e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: O n t h e 9 t h . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MS KHUMBU SHAZI: T h e N o ti c e s fo u n d t h e ir w a y t o t h e in s t r u c t i n g a tt o r n e y th a t S a tu r d a y o n t h e 11 t h . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d I w a s i n s tr u c t e d o r b r i e fe d o n M o n d a y t h e 13th. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I : W e w r o t e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y o n 20 Tu e s d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d w e o n ly r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e b a c k to in d ic a t e t h a t w e c a n c o m e a n d b r i n g t h i s a p p li c a t i o n o n F r i d a y w h ic h is w h y w e a r e h e r e t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w r o t e o n t h e 1 3 t h ? Page 3 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: O n t h e 1 4 t h w e w r o t e . CHAIRPERSON: On the 14t h? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: 1 4 t h w e w r o t e to t h e c o m m i s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W h ic h w a s o n Tu e s d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W e r e c e iv e d t h e ir r e s p o n s e o n Fr i d a y th e 1 7 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d w e c o u l d o n ly c o m e h e r e to d a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d w e w e r e n o t a b l e to p r e p a r e a s u b s ta n ti v e a p p lic a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I : H o w e v e r I w a s i n t h e c r u n c h ti m e t h a t w e h a d I w a s a b l e t o j u s t p r e p a r e a l i tt l e w r i t te n s u b m is s i o n o n o u r a p p lic a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Fi r s tl y w h y w e a r e h e r e is w e a r e n o t tr y in g t o s t o p t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m b e i n g h e a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w a n t t o h a n d u p o r n o t r e a l ly ? 20 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I h a v e g iv e n i t t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u d o n o t h a v e i t , i t is fi n e I w i ll j u s t li s t e n m o r e c a r e fu ll y. MS KHUMBU SHAZI: I h a v e , I h a v e g iv e n i t g iv e n t o m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 4 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d I h a v e a c o p y f o r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . Ye s t h a n k y o u . O h th e r e i s m o r e . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Thank you. N o w C h a ir a li t tl e b i t o f a background. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I : O u r c li e n ts w e r e a r r e s t e d i n 2 0 1 0 p u r s u a n t to a c r i m i n a l in v e s ti g a t io n w h ic h t h e w i t n e s s is g o i n g to te s t i fy t o d a y, w i ll b e t e s ti fy in g a b o u t . N o w s u b s e q u e n t ly a f t e r t h e ir a r r e s t t h e y w e r e in d i c te d in t h e P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g h i g h c o u r t. 10 Th e tr i a l u n d e r th e c a s e n u m b e r C C 1 4 /1 2 . Th e tr i a l w a s s u p p o s e d t o s t a r t in 2 0 1 0 . I t h a s y e t t o s t a r t . T h e r e h a v e b e e n – c u r r e n tly – i n it i a l ly t h e r e w e r e 2 1 a c c u s e d . Th e r e is n o w 11 . Th e y h a v e b e e n w h i t tl e d d o w n t o 11 . N o w a m o n g s t t h e o t h e r a c c u s e d th a t a r e b e f o r e c o u r t th e r e th e r e h a s b e e n a n u m b e r o f p r e l i mi n a r y a p p l ic a ti o n , [i n d is t in c t] a p p l ic a t i o n s permanent s ta y a p p lic a ti o n s . A lo t o f s t a r ti n g a n d s t o p p i n g w h ic h h a s d e la y e d t h e t r i a l . I t h a s b e e n a n u n t o ld fr u s tr a t i o n to my c li e n t s b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t th e ir tr i a l t o s t a r t . N o w i n t r y i n g t o m i t ig a t e t h e p r e j u d i c e th a t t h e y a r e s u ff e r i n g b e c a u s e o f th e d e l a y o f th e tr ia l o u r c l ie n t w e b r o u g h t – w e a p p r o a c h e d t h e D u r b a n h i g h c o u r t a n d w e b r o u g h t a n a p p lic a ti o n i n 20 t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 5 7 o f t h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t ; C h a ir w i ll b e f a m ili a r w i th t h a t w h ic h i s s u p p r e s s i o n o f tr i a ls . O n 1 7 D e c e m b e r l a s t y e a r t h e D u r b a n h i g h c o u r t g r a n t th a t a p p l ic a t io n ; t h a t t h e tr ia l m u s t b e s e p a r a t e d fr o m t h e r e s t o f t h e a c c u s e d b e c a u s e t h a t tr i a l t h e r e i s n o t g o i n g – is n o t g o i n g t o s t a r t a n y t i m e s o o n . T h e r e i s s ti ll a p e n d i n g p e r m a n e n t s ta y a p p l ic a ti o n t h a t is s ti ll g o i n g t o b e b r o u g h t a n d o n c e Page 5 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t h a t is b r o u g h t th e r e is g o in g t o b e a p p e a ls u p o n a p p e a l s . Now with t h e p e r m a n e n t – w i t h t h e s e p a r a ti o n a p p lic a ti o n h a v i n g b e e n g r a n t e d t h e w a y i s o p e n f o r m y c li e n ts ’ tr i a l t o s t a r t . O n c e t h e s e s s i o n s t a r ts i n Durban … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e r e a r e t w o c a t e g o r ie s o f a c c u s e d p e r s o n s ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e th o s e w h o s a y w e d o n o t w a n t th is tr i a l t o t a k e p la c e a n y m o r e . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: F o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n s t h e r e f o r e w e h a v e a p p li e d s o t h o s e a r e a p p ly i n g t o t h e h ig h c o u r t f o r a p e r m a n e n t s t a y ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: P e r m a n e n t s t a y – t h e y a r e … CHAIRPERSON: Of prosecution. Yo u r c li e n ts fa ll i n t o a d i ff e r e n t c a t e g o r y. Yo u r c l ie n ts ’ a t t i tu d e is w e w a n t t h e tr ia l . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w a n t – w e w a n t t o b e tr i e d . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e w a n t i t a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: 20 As s o o n a s p o s s i b l e . We do not want to get around it. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e n o t p a r t o f th o s e w h o s a y t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o f u r th e r tr i a l. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: We do not want to get around it we want to get Page 6 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 through it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: B u t w h a t w e d o n o t w a n t is t h e d e l a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is t h e d e l a y j a . ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: B u t i t s e e m s n o w t h a t i t i s n o t s ta r t i n g a n d t h e r e i s n o e n d i n s ig h t t o t h e s e a p p lic a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: S o w h a t w e a p p r o a c h e d t h e D u r b a n c o u r t t o d o w a s w e b r o u g h t m o t i o n p r o c e e d i n g s t o o r d e r t h a t o u r tr ia ls b e 10 s e p a r a t e d s o t h a t it c a n s t a r t i m m e d i a t e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o w t h e w a y is o p e n f o r u s to d o t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o w a s s o o n a s th e s e s s i o n s t a r ts t h e n w e g o i n g t o s e t th e m a t t e r d o w n f o r tr i a l . T h e s ta t e h a s i n d ic a te d – h a s b e e n i n d ic a ti n g th r o u g h o u t t h e p e r m a n e n t s t a y p r o c e e d in g s in t h e o t h e r a p p lic a ti o n s th a t th e y a r e r e a d y t o s ta r t w it h th e m a t te r. S o th e r e w i ll b e n o d e l a y i n b r in g in g m y c l i e n ts t o tr i a l . N o w th e – Mr W h i t e w h o i s g o i n g t o te s ti fy ; w h o s e e v id e n c e th e c o m m is s i o n s e e k s to l e a d is th e 20 m a in w i tn e s s in t h e ir t r i a l . M y c l i e n ts ’ a ll e g e d ly a r e t h e n u c le u s o f t h e charges against the rest of the accused. T h e c o r r u p t a c ts t h a t s u p p o s e d l y w a s d o n e my c li e n t s a r e a t t h e c e n tr e o f i t . Now if Mr W h i t e te s ti fi e s t o d a y b e f o r e h e te s t i fi e s i n c o u r t u n t o l d p r e j u d ic e i s g o i n g to h a p p e n a n d it i s g o i n g to [i n d is t i n c t ] m y c l ie n ts . We are not s t o p p in g h i m fr o m t e s t if y i n g w e a r e a s k i n g t h e c o m m i s s io n t o d e la y h i s Page 7 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t e s ti m o n y u n ti l h e h a s t e s ti f ie d i n c o u r t . There is a reason why in c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e n o t y e t te s t i fi e d a r e s e n t t o s i t o u ts id e a n d n o t h e a r t h e w i tn e s s w h o is t e s ti fy i n g a t th e ti m e . B e c a u s e w i t n e s s e s a r e k n o w n t o c o lo u r t h e ir e v i d e n c e to s u i t t h e w i t n e s s – I m e a n t h e w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e w h o h a s t e s ti f ie d . p r e j u d ic ia l c o n s e q u e n c e s fo r t h e a c c u s e d . facing serious there c o n v i c ti o n a r e s e r io u s . and s e n te n c in g It has H e s a y s m y c li e n ts a r e provisions that f o l lo w th e N o w t h e c o m m i s s io n is w i d e ly p u b lic is e d . It h a s a v a s t a u d i e n c e a n d u n fo r t u n a t e l y t h e c o m m i s s io n c a n n o t d ic t a t e 10 w h o i t r e a c h e s . T h e w i tn e s s e s a r e g o i n g t o b e t e s t if y i n g i n t h e ir tr ia l w i ll b e l is te n in g t o th is e v i d e n c e a n d t h e y w il l k n o w w h a t i s g o i n g t o – a n d w h a t – h e is n o t o n ly t e s t i fy i n g – M r W h i te is n o t o n ly t e s t i fy in g about primary evidence so to speak. H e p e r f o r m e d a fo r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o t h e – t h e c o r r u p t a c t iv it ie s o r i n to th e c h a r g e s o r a l le g a ti o n s w h a ts o e v e r s o h is e v id e n c e i s w i d e e n c o m p a s s in g . H e w i ll b e c o v e r i n g th e e n t ir e tr i a l. H i m a n d C o l o n e l D u P l o o y. Our – my c li e n t s ’ w a n t t o p a r ti c i p a t e . Th e y w a n t – t h e y d o n o t w a n t a n y a l le g a ti o n s a g a i n s t t h e m t o r e m a i n u n c h a l le n g e d . p a r t ic ip a t e in t h is p r o c e e d in g s . 20 They want to B u t b y th e m p a r tic ip a ti n g i n t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s i t w o u l d r e q u ir e th a t w e c r o s s - e x a mi n e Mr W h it e a n d M r D u P l o o y w h i c h m e a n s th a t o u r e n t ir e tr i a l s tr a te g y is g o i n g t o b e l a i d b a r e in fr o n t o f th is c o m m i s s io n b e f o r e w e s ta r t t h e tr i a l . A n d in fr o n t o f e v e r y o t h e r w it n e s s w h o is g o in g to b e li s te n i n g a n d w a tc h i n g t h e c o m m i s s io n . B y t h e ti m e w e g e t to c o u r t t o s ta r t t h e m a t t e r w h a t e v e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r v o ic e is g o i n g lo w e r a n d l o w e r a s y o u p r o c e e d . Page 8 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . B y t h e ti m e w e g e t t o c o u r t a t w h a t e v e r ti m e e v e n th e lo o p h o le s t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e – M r W h i te ’s e v i d e n c e a l l e g e d ly y o u p o s t th a t w o u l d h a v e s o t o p o k e h e w o u l d b e a b l e to c lo s e th e m . T h i s is o n e o f th e g r o u n d s f o r p e r m a n e n t s ta y o f prosecution. B e c a u s e i f m y c li e n ts – if t h is t e s ti m o n y is a ll o w e d t o c o n ti n u e b e f o r e i t i s h e a r d i n t h e c r i m i n a l c o u r t i t is tr ia l r e l a te d p r e j u d ic e . Th e p r e s i d i n g o ffi c e r w h o is g o in g t o h e a r th is m a t t e r m i g h t b e w a t c h in g t h e c o m m i s s i o n . A s m u c h a s p r e s i d in g o ff ic e r s a r e a b le to d iv o r c e t h e m s e l v e s f r o m a n y i m p r e s s io n s a n d a l l o f th a t b u t j u s t ic e 10 m u s t b e s e e n t o b e d o n e . Yo u c a n n o t fo r a f a c t i n d ic a t e t h a t h e i s n o t in fl u e n c e d b y w h a t h e w o u l d h a v e h e a r d h e r e . I f t h is i s a ll o w e d t o c o n ti n u e my c li e n t h a s g r o u n d s f o r a p e r m a n e n t s ta y a p p li c a t io n w h i c h we are going to bring and we w il l be c i t in g u n f o r t u n a t e ly a s t h e b a s i s f o r t h a t a p p lic a ti o n . the commission I k n o w th a t – I k n o w t h a t C h a ir d o e s n o t w a n t a ll o f t h a t. S o w e a r e ju s t tr y in g t o a v o i d t h a t. W e a r e n o t s a y in g fr o m w h a t w e h a v e g l e a n e d i n th e m e d i a a n d e v e r y w h e r e e l s e t h is c o m m i s s i o n is n o t g o i n g t o e n d a n y ti m e s o o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ill – i ts li f e s p a n g o e s u p t o t h e e n d o f Fe b r u a r y. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h is y e a r o r n e x t y e a r ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h is y e a r. N e x t m o n t h . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h is F e b r u a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : U n l e s s t h e c o u r t g r a n t s t h is c o m m is s i o n a n e x te n s i o n . W e h a v e a p p l ie d t o t h e h i g h c o u r t f o r t h e e x t e n s i o n o f i ts li f e s p a n b u t w e d o n o t t a k e t h e a t t it u d e th a t th e c o u r t w i ll g r a n t u s th e e x t e n s i o n ju s t b e c a u s e w e h a v e a s k e d f o r i t . Page 9 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: B u t I a m s u r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o u r t w il l ta k e in t o a c c o u n t e v e r y t h in g . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d w e s h o u ld n o t t a k e a n y t h i n g fo r g r a n t e d . I b e li e v e t h a t t h e – t h e a p p lic a ti o n th a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s m a d e h a s r e a s o n a b l e p r o s p e c ts o f s u c c e s s b u t I a m n o t t h e c o u r t . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: I u n d e r s ta n d n o t i n th is f o r u m . B u t I a m s u r e C h a ir is h o p e f u l th a t th e r e w il l b e a n e x t e n s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m h o p e f u l b u t I a m n o t th e c o u r t. 10 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o w i f w h a t w e h a v e g l e a n e d – fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s e e n a n d t h e in t e r e s t t h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n h a s h a d i t is u n l ik e l y t h a t i t w i ll s t o p a n y ti m e s o o n i f th e r e i s s ti ll e v id e n c e t h a t n e e d s t o b e le d . W h a t w e a r e s a y i n g is – a n d n o w t h a t w e h a v e t h e c o m m i s s io n o n o u r s i d e to s a y t h a t w e n e e d t h a t m a t te r s t a n d d o w n fo r tr ia l a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le b e c a u s e t h e r e is e v i d e n c e t h a t is b e in g h e l d o v e r a t t h e c o m m i s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Fo r t h e tr i a l t o s t a r t . I t is a c tu a l ly h e lp in g b o t h ways. 20 B u t i f th e t r i a l – i f t h e c o m m i s s io n h e a r s t h is e v i d e n c e b e f o r e the… C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll Ms S h a z i if – if w e t a k e y o u r c li e n t s ’ r e a s o n i n g t o it s lo g ic a l c o n c l u s i o n w h a t i t w o u l d m e a n i s t h a t to d a y y o u a r e h e r e b e f o r e m e a s k in g t h a t w e a d j o u r n t h e h e a r in g o f t h e e v id e n c e o f t h e s e w i t n e s s e s b e c a u s e y o u r c li e n t m u s t f ir s t h a v e – y o u r c l ie n ts m u s t h a v e – f ir s t h a v e t h e ir c r i m in a l tr ia l s t a r t a n d g e t c o m p le t e d o r a t l e a s t Page 10 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 m a y b e u n ti l th e s e w i t n e s s e s g iv e e v i d e n c e th e r e . ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: Ye s th e y a r e t h e fir s t t w o w i t n e s s e s o f th e s t a te . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h e fi r s t o n e s . CHAIRPERSON: J a a n d th e n i f I a g r e e t o t h a t n e x t w e e k s o m e b o d y e ls e c o m e s u p a n d s a y s , m y c l ie n ts a r e i m p lic a t e d b y th is w i tn e s s y o u w a n t t o l is t e n t o a n d th e i r tr i a l i s c o m in g u p t o o . P l e a s e p o s t p o n e t h e h e a r in g o f th is w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e . 10 W e p o s tp o n e . That other week another one comes. So where does that put the commission? A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: C h a ir I u n d e r s t a n d a n d I a m l o a t h e t o s t a n d here at the – at the back of what happened last week. CHAIRPERSON: We have – we have – we have issued – the c o m m i s s io n h a s is s u e d R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s t o I b e l i e v e o v e r t h e p a s t t w o years to no less than 1000 people. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: B u t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i t c o n ti n u e s to i s s u e s u c h n o t ic e s to m o r e people. ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: 20 I – I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir b u t h o w m a n y o f t h e m h a v e p e n d in g c r i m in a l tr i a ls t h a t a r e – t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll s o m e a r e n o t p e n d i n g – w e ll s o m e – t h e r e a r e – t h a t a r e p e n d i n g w h o h a v e n o t a p p li e d – w h o h a v e n o t m a d e t h is a p p lic a ti o n . W h o h a v e a ll o w e d w i t n e s s e s t o c o n ti n u e b u t th e y h a v e s a i d d o n o t f o r c e u s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e w e a r e h a v i n g a tr i a l. T h e r e a r e i s s u e s th a t a r e b e i n g d e a l t w it h in r e g a r d t o t h o s e . B u t t h e y Page 11 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 h a v e n o t c o m e t o s a y d e la y th e h e a r i n g o f t h e e v id e n c e o f th e s e w i t n e s s e s w h o a r e i m p lic a ti n g u s . Th e y h a v e ju s t s a id , w e w i ll – d o n o t force us to come and put our version. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I : B u t w e d o n o t w a n t to – t o b e fo r c e d t o b e p u t t h e v e r s i o n w e w a n t t o p u t t h e v e r s io n . B e c a u s e a s C h a ir i s a w a r e t h e r e a r e a d v e r s e i n fe r e n c e s – t h e r e a r e a d v e r s e in f e r e n c e s t h a t a r e drawn. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ei t h e r w a y e v e n i n t h is c o m m i s s io n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: I f a w it n e s s d o e s n o t p u t a v e r s i o n t h e r e a r e a d v e r s e in f e r e n c e s t h a t a r e d r a w n th e r e . I n tr i a l c o u r t i f w i t n e s s e s d o n o t p u t t h e i r v e r s i o n t h e r e i s a d v e r s e in f e r e n c e s t h a t w il l b e d r a w n there. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t l e t u s j u s t d e a l w i t h t h is th in g q u i te q u i c k l y. Is y o u r c l ie n ts ’ d i ff ic u l ty i n h a v i n g t o d i s c l o s e th e ir v e r s i o n is t h e y h a v e t o a p p ly fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e s e w i t n e s s e s o r is t h e ir d i ffi c u l ty m o r e th a n th a t? A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Tw o f o l d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: O n e a s C h a ir h a s i n d ic a te d th e d i ffi c u l ty is to h a v e o u r t r i a l s tr a t e g y o p e n e d u p h e r e a t t h e c o m m is s i o n o r r e v e a l e d a t t h e c o m m i s s io n w h ic h w e w i ll h a v e t o d o . A n d C h a ir k n o w s h o w i m p o r t a n t i t is t h a t – I m e a n c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n g o e s t o th e h e a r t o f t h e tr i a l. T h a t is o n e . Tw o – to h a v e o t h e r w i t n e s s e s w h o a r e g o in g to Page 12 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t e s ti fy i n th is t r i a l , h e a r th is t e s ti m o n y b e f o r e t h e t r i a l c o m m e n c e s . T h e r e i s a r e a s o n w h y i n c o u r t w i t n e s s e s a r e a s k e d t o s i t o u ts id e b e f o r e – w h e n a n o t h e r w i t n e s s is te s t i fy in g . T h e r e i s a r e a s o n f o r th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e w e h a v e g o t t o s tr i k e a b a l a n c e b e tw e e n p u b lic in t e r e s t . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r i g h ts o f i n d iv id u a ls . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e w h o m a y b e c h a r g e d a f te r t h is 10 c o m m i s s io n h a s f i n is h e d i t s w o r k w h o s e – w h o w il l h a v e w i t n e s s e s i n t h e ir tr i a l w h o h a d b e e n h e a r d g iv in g e v i d e n c e . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: I … CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e e v i d e n c e th a t h a s b e e n g iv e n a n d t h e ir s t a te m e n ts b e c o m e p u b l ic d o c u m e n t s o n c e t h e y h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e before the commission – everybody has access to them. So that is in e v it a b l e . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: I – I … CHAIRPERSON: B u t i t m e a n s th a t y o u c li e n t w i ll k n o w w h a t t h e w i t n e s s h a s s a i d a n d c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n t h a t w il l b e a v a il a b l e t o y o u r 20 c li e n t s d u r in g t h e t r i a l w i ll a ls o l o o k i n to t h a t . S o in o th e r w o r d s it is n o t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e e v e r y th i n g c a n b e 1 0 0 % f o r y o u r c li e n t. Th e r e m a y b e s o m e t h in g s t h a t th e y d o n o t li k e a n d w o u l d h a v e p r e f e r r e d t h a t b y t h e tr i a l – b y t h e ti m e t h e i r tr i a l h a p p e n s t h o s e t h i n g s d i d n o t h a p p e n . B u t w h e n y o u h a v e g o t t o b a l a n c e th e i r i n te r e s t a s w e l l a s t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e p u b li c s o m e t h i n g s m a y h a v e t o h a p p e n w h ic h th e y w o u l d Page 13 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 prefer not to happen. B e c a u s e t h e m a t t e r s t h a t th is c o m m is s i o n i s lo o k in g in t o a r e o f i m m e n s e p u b l ic i n t e r e s ts a n d t h e – t h e c o m m is s i o n has been hearing evidence for one and a half years. a ft e r it w a s e s ta b lis h e d i t n e e d s t o t r y a n d fi n is h . It is t w o y e a r s In the court a p p lic a ti o n th a t h a s b e e n m a d e fo r th e e x t e n s i o n o f t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s li fe s p a n i t h a s b e e n s t a t e d t h a t w e a r e a s k i n g f o r a n e x t e n s io n u p t o t h e e n d o f D e c e m b e r. A n d i f w e g r a n t – i f I g r a n t th e o r d e r t h a t y o u a r e a s k in g fo r t h e n I m a y a s w e l l f o r g e t a b o u t fi n i s h i n g t h is y e a r. As y o u – a s y o u s p e a k t o m e y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e n th e tr ia l w i ll s ta r t . E v e n i f 10 y o u k n e w w e a ll k n o w w h a t h a p p e n s w i t h tr ia ls p a r t ic u l a r ly c r i m i n a l tr i a ls . P o s t p o n e m e n ts a n d n o t fi n is h i n g a n d a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s . S o i t s e e m s t o m e th a t I w o u l d n e e d a l o t o f c o n v i n c i n g to g r a n t y o u r a p p lic a ti o n . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: I a m tr y i n g – I a m t r y i n g t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I k n o w y o u tr y i n g . Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: B e l ie v e m e I a m tr y in g . N o w I a g r e e w i t h C h a ir in s a y i n g th a t t h e – a t t h e e n d o f t h e c o m m is s i o n t h e r e m a y b e p e o p l e t h a t w il l b e c h a r g e d – [i n d is t in c t ] b u t th a t is a m a y b e . may be charged. 20 Th o s e p e o p l e A n d i n f a c t w h a t i s g o i n g t o h a p p e n is t h a t t h e p r o s e c u t i o n is g o in g t o u s e t h e e v id e n c e o f t h i s c o m m is s i o n t o ta il o r t h e c h a r g e s o f th o s e p e o p l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: To fi n d o u t w h a t w a s – w h a t h a s b e e n s a i d a n d a l l o f th is s o th e e v i d e n c e t h a t is g o in g to b e le d i n th is c o m m i s s i o n is v e r y i m p o r ta n t . Page 14 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o w w i th m y c li e n t it is n o t a m a t t e r o f m a y b e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: H e i s a lr e a d y c h a r g e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: H is c h a r g e s a r e o u t t h e r e . H e is a lr e a d y – c h a r g e is a lr e a d y a p p e a r in g i n c o u r t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: 10 A s m u c h a s C h a i r is s a y i n g w e d o n o t k n o w w h e n t h e t r i a l w i ll s t a r t t h e s t a t e h a s a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t t h e y a r e r e a d y. W h a t th is n e e d s i s – in f a c t w h a t t h is n e e d s is t h a t w e a p p r o a c h th e – t h e J u d g e P r e s i d e n t o f th e h i g h c o u r t w h o is g o i n g t o g i v e u s a j u d g e a n d th e m a t te r s t a r ts . W e n o t a s k i n g – w e a r e a w a r e o f th e p u b l ic in t e r e s t w h ic h i s w h y w e a r e n o t a s k in g . B u t i f y o u w e i g h t h a t w i th t h e – w i th t h e r i g h t t o a f a ir tr ia l o f a n a c c u s e d w h o is f a c i n g a m i n i m u m s e n te n c e o f fi f te e n y e a r s t h e o n ly p r e j u d i c e t h a t is g o i n g to b e fa ll t h i s c o m m i s s io n i f i t d e la y s t h i s e v i d e n c e i s t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e w a s te d h a l f a d a y. T h e r e a r e o th e r w i t n e s s e s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o c o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a s s u m e y o u w il l b e t h e o n ly o n e ? 20 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: S o fa r in tw o y e a r s C h a ir. S o f a r. A s C h a ir h a s in d i c a t e d t h a t p e o p le a r e n o t i n te r e s t e d i n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u a r e th e f ir s t o n e t o s a y p le a s e d e l a y – d e l a y u n t il … A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : My tr ia l h a s b e e n fi n a l is e d . Page 15 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o . N o , n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : My c l ie n ts ’ tr i a l h a s b e e n fi n a li s e d . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o . Ye s – s o – i t is n o t t h a t e v e r y o n e e ls e i s g o i n g t o d o i t . I t h a s b e e n t w o y e a r s t h a t t h is c o m m i s s i o n is s it t in g . CHAIRPERSON: Well there are… A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d n o - o n e e ls e h a s d o n e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e s o m e w h o h a v e a lr e a d y a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t a f e w ti m e s . L i k e s o m e w h o a r e c o n n e c t e d w i t h B o s a s a e v i d e n c e th a t was led here. 10 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: And they have appeared consequent upon the evidence that was led here. They were not charged before the e v i d e n c e w a s le d h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t d o e s i t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e ? Th e y c o u ld h a v e t h e s a m e c o m p la i n t. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: No it does. I t d o e s m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e C h a ir. B e c a u s e t h e – t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t is g o in g t o b e l e d b y t h e s t a t e t h e n – w o u ld – t h e s ta t e m i g h t n o t e v e n le a d th e e v id e n c e th a t w a s l e d h e r e . I t w il l d e p e n d o n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t a r e s ti ll g o i n g t o b e d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . N o . I f t h e y t o o k th e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s y o u . 20 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h e y w o u l d h a v e c o m e h e r e a n d a p p l ie d f o r e x a c tly t h e s a m e o r d e r t h a t y o u a r e a s k i n g f o r w h e n t h o s e w i tn e s s e s w h o i m p l ic a t e d t h e m w e r e g o i n g to c o m e b e c a u s e t h e y t o o r e c e iv e d 3 .3 N o t ic e s j u s t lik e y o u r c l i e n ts . ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: Are we talking about witnesses that have Page 16 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 a lr e a d y b e e n c h a r g e d o r p e o p l e t h a t a r e e x p e c ti n g t o b e c h a r g e d ? CHAIRPERSON: No. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: C o n s e q u e n t o f t h e e v i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: No, no those who have appeared in court and who c o n ti n u e t o a p p e a r i n c o u r t. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: A f t e r th e e v i d e n c e w a s l e d h e r e a t th e c o m m i s s io n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a t i s my – th a t is m y a r g u m e n t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d y o u r a r g u m e n t b e c a u s e I a m s a y in g . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d y o u r c l i e n ts r e c e iv e d 3 . 3 N o t ic e s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s t h e y d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e y w e r e t o l d t h a t c e r ta i n w i t n e s s e s a r e g o i n g t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e t h a t w il l i m p l ic a t e t h e m . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th o s e w i tn e s s e s a r e w i t n e s s e s t h a t t h e y b e l i e v e w i ll g iv e e v id e n c e i n t h e ir c r i m i n a l tr i a l s . 20 ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: T h e y a r e g o i n g to g iv e e v i d e n c e i n th e ir criminal trial. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h e y a r e g o i n g t o g iv e . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev i d e n c e . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . Page 17 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y h a v e c e r ta i n f e a r s a r i s i n g o u t o f th a t . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s a y i n g w i t h th o s e p e o p le t h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t t h e y r e c e i v e d 3 . 3 N o ti c e s . T h o s e 3 . 3 N o ti c e s s a i d t h e r e a r e w it n e s s e s w h o a r e g o i n g to g i v e e v id e n c e i n th e c o m m i s s io n . T h e y w il l i m p li c a t e you. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And those people … A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: M a y … 10 CHAIRPERSON: D i d n o t c o m e – d id n o t c o m e t o s a y d e l a y a n d t h e n e v i d e n c e w a s l e d a n d t h e n th e y w e r e c h a r g e d – t h e y w e r e a r r e s t e d a n d c h a r g e d . T h e y d id n o t c o m e a n d s a y, s t o p w e c o n ti n u e d . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s C h a ir. I a m n o t s u r e w h y t h e y d i d n o t b u t m a y b e th e d i ff e r e n c e is th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h e ir a r g u m e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e s e w i t n e s s e s m a y g i v e e v id e n c e a g a i n s t u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: M a y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: O u r a r g u m e n t is t h a t t h is w i tn e s s is g o i n g t o g iv e e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I : A g a i n s t t h e m a n d h e is t h e fir s t w i t n e s s in t h e tr i a l. Page 18 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t i s t h e b a s is o f t h e ir tr i a l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: H e i s d e fi n i t e l y g o i n g t o g i v e e v i d e n c e . T h e r e is n o m a y b e a b o u t it . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: S o w e a r e g o i n g t o b e p r e j u d ic e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: 10 I t i s n o t th a t t h e r e m a y b e p r e j u d ic e ; w e a r e . A n d t h e o n ly p r e ju d ic e t h a t is g o in g to b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n a s I w a s s a y in g is t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s g o t to h a v e t o d e l a y fo r a d a y. If w e w e r e g iv e n t h e s e n o ti c e s ti m e o u s l y w e w e r e g o in g t o b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h t h is b e f o r e h a n d s o t h a t w e p r e s e r v e ti m e f o r t h e c o m m is s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. ADV KHUMBU SHAZI: T h e – th e f a i r n e s s o f t h e tr i a l is a t t h e c o r n e r s t o n e o f t h e c r i m i n a l j u s t ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d i f m y c li e n t s ’ tr ia l i s v e n t il a te d in t h i s c o m m i s s io n b e f o r e it is v e n t il a te d in t h e tr i a l c o u r t t h a t is p r e j u d i c e t h a t 20 cannot be undone. It cannot be undone. A w i t n e s s w h o is c r o s s - e x a m in e d o r w h o g iv e s e v i d e n c e a n d is c r o s s - e x a m i n e d b e f o r e h e g o e s t o t h e tr i a l c o u r t a n d d e a l w i t h th e s a m e w i t n e s s a n d s a m e c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n o b v io u s ly b y t h e t i m e h e g e t s th e r e h e w il l k n o w w h a t is a w a it i n g h i m . A n d e v e r y o t h e r w i t n e s s w i ll k n o w. t e s ti fy. Page 19 of 148 Th is w it n e s s w il l 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u r s u b m is s i o n i s t h a t th a t o u t w e i g h s p u b li c in t e r e s t? A D V K H U M B U S H A ZI : I t o u tw e ig h s – i f – it w o u ld b e o n e t h i n g C h a ir i f w e w e r e s a y i n g h is e v i d e n c e m u s t n o t b e h e a r d a t a ll . We are not s a y in g t h a t . W e a r e s a y i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y it m u s t b e h e a r d s o m e t i m e i n t h e f u tu r e and you do not know when? A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I : W e – w e – if – i f t h e C h a ir c a n g iv e u s o r p u t u s d o w n t o – a n d n a i l u s d o w n t o a d a te w e m a y b e a b l e t o g i v e y o u t h a t 10 date. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is n o t w it h in y o u r p o w e r. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: W e m a y b e a b l e t o g iv e y o u t h e d a t e n e x t w e e k . B e c a u s e a ll t h a t w e n e e d to d o i s t o a p p r o a c h t h e J u d g e Pr e s i d e n t to g iv e u s a j u d g e a n d a d a t e w h ic h is s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e c a n d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d – a n d t h a t d a t e m ig h t b e O c to b e r, N o v e m b e r t h is y e a r. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: W e l l i t c a n – fr o m w h a t w e h a v e a s c e r t a i n e d w h ic h is w h y w e h a v e b e e n d r iv i n g to s a y th a t m y c l ie n ts ’ tr i a l m u s t s t a r t . I t h a s d e l a y e d f o r t e n y e a r s . Te n y e a r s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: S o h is e n t it l e d t o h is d a y in c o u r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: B e fo r e h e g e t s h is d a y h e r e a t t h e c o m m i s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: H e – I t h i n k h e is e n ti tl e d t o g e t h is d a y th e r e . Page 20 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: F ir s t . We approached and we have the c o n d i ti o n b e f o r e u s to s a y w e a r e – n o w w e n e e d t o s t a r t th a t tr ia l b e f o r e t h e w i t n e s s h a s t e s ti f ie d h e r e . W h a t – a ll w e n e e d t o d o is t h a t t h is w i t n e s s w h o is t h e fi r s t w it n e s s m u s t t e s ti fy b e c r o s s - e x a m in e d a n d t h a t i s it . A n d th e n t h o s e t w o w i t n e s s e s a n d t h a t is i t . N o t th e tr i a l m u s t e n d . F o r e x a m p l e i f t h e t r i a l w e r e t o – w e r e a ll o w e d to r u n t o i ts fi n a l it y a n d m y c l i e n ts a r e a c q u i t te d i t w o u ld b e s o m e th in g e l s e f o r t h is w i t n e s s w h o w o u ld c o m e t o t e s ti fy h e r e b u t I a m n o t e v e n g o i n g th e r e . 10 I a m o n ly s a y in g h e m u s t b e a l lo w e d t o t e s t if y t h e r e a n d t h a t is i t . T h e m o m e n t h e fi n i s h e s t e s ti fy i n g t h e r e h e c a n c o m e to t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d t e s ti fy a n d t h e n w e w i ll c o m e a n d c r o s s - e x a m in e h i m h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d m y c l i e n ts w ill p a r t ic ip a t e f u l ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u n e e d m o r e th a n t h r e e m i n u t e s t o fi n a l is e y o u r s u b m is s io n s ? A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t n e e d m o r e o k a y. I g i v e y o u th r e e mi n u te s t o f in is h b u t i f y o u a r e d o n e i t is f in e . 20 A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s w e – w e – t h a t i s b a s ic a l ly o u r a p p li c a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K H U M B U S H A Z I : T h a t is j u s t b e d e l a y e d f o r a li t tl e w h i le . I f w e a r e n a i l e d d o w n t o a d a t e w e c a n g iv e t h e c o m m i s s io n t h a t d a t e a n d t h e s o o n e s t d a t e it w o u l d b e i n – I d o n o t k n o w w h e n t h e d a t e s a r e g o in g t o b e b u t i t w il l b e th e s o o n e s t d a t e . Page 21 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . M r P r e to r i u s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. We had prepared w r i t t e n s u b m is s i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d h a v e a t ta c h e d s o m e a u th o r i ti e s i f I may hand that up? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : w o u ld li k e t o m a k e fo u r p o i n ts . 10 B u t b e f o r e d e a l in g w i t h t h e m I j u s t – T h e f ir s t i s th a t w e h a v e a p p r o a c h e d t h e m a t te r fr o m a p o i n t o f v i e w, a p r i n c ip l e a n d c i te d t h e r e le v a n t a u t h o r i t ie s f o r y o u r c o n v e n i e n c e C h a ir. B e c a u s e a s y o u h a v e a lr e a d y p o i n t e d o u t w h a t h a p p e n s h e r e m a y c r e a t e a p r e c e d e n t in r e l a ti o n t o s o m e if n o t a l l th e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e te s ti fi e d a n d w h o m a y y e t t e s ti fy. S o i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e m a t t e r b e d e a l t w i t h a t th e l e v e l o f p r i n c i p l e fr o m t h e l e g a l t e a m ’s p o i n t o f v i e w. Th e s e c o n d p o i n t is th a t t h e r e is a d e g r e e o f ir o n y. N o t a d e g r e e o f i r o n y. T h e r e i s a n e x tr e m e ir o n y i n t h e a p p r o a c h o f t h e A p p l ic a n ts . T h e v e r y s e p a r a ti o n t h a t th e y a s k e d f o r is a r e q u e s t t o t h e c o u r t to d e a l w i t h a l l t h e i s s u e s - i n f a c t t h e c e n tr a l n u c l e u s a n d a l l t h e is s u e s in th e c r i m in a l tr i a l b e f o r e t h e 20 o th e r a c c u s e d a r e h e a r d . P r e c is e ly w h a t t h e y h a v e a s k e d f o r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e y c o m p l a i n e d a b o u t i n t h i s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M a t te r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 22 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : In o th e r w o r d s a … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A c a n v a s s i n g o f t h e is s u e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : In r e l a ti o n t o a c c u s e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S ti ll t o c o m e b e f o r e th e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C o m m i s s io n - b e f o r e t h e c o u r t s . T h e th ir d 10 p o i n t b y w a y o f i n t r o d u c ti o n i s t h e r e is a n a b s u r d i ty i n th e a p p r o a c h o f t h e A p p li c a n ts . T h is C o m m i s s io n is s t a tu t o r i ly m a n d a t e d to i n v e s t ig a t e criminal conduct. C r i m in a l conduct w h ic h might have been c o n te m p l a t e d fo r p r o s e c u ti o n , b u t d e l a y e d a s i n th is c a s e . Criminal conduct which might yet result in p r o s e c u t i o n o r w h i c h h a s a lr e a d y r e s u l t e d i n p r o s e c u ti o n . criminal Yo u w e r e t h e n m a n d a t e d C h a ir t o m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n r e g a r d to t h a t c r i m i n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n or in v e s ti g a t io n in t o amongst other th i n g s criminal conduct. I f y o u w e r e s o m e h o w o b li g e d i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s to d e l a y t h e 20 e v i d e n c e u n ti l t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e c r i m i n a l tr i a l t h e r e s u l t is a n a b s u r d i ty. T h e r e i s n o p u r p o s e f o r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a t a l l . In short C h a ir t h is C o m m i s s io n h a s a j o b t o d o a n d i t m u s t d o i t. T h e p a r tic u la r c ir c u m s ta n c e s h e r e a r e n o t c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h ic h e n jo y t h e p r o te c t i o n o f t h e la w a n d th a t is t h e p r in c i p l e d a p p r o a c h th a t i s h ig h l i g h t e d . I n f a c t th e r e is n o c o m p u ls i o n h e r e a t a ll . Page 23 of 148 Th e A p p li c a n ts 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 h a v e a c h o ic e . T h e y c a n c h o o s e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e a n d d e a l w i t h th e c o n s e q u e n c e s i n p u t ti n g a v e r s i o n i n t h a t c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n o r t h e y c a n c h o o s e to r e m a i n s i le n t . A b s e n t a s s u m m o n s w h ic h is n o t r e le v a n t h e r e . T h a t c h o i c e is r e c o g n is e d a s a h a r d c h o ic e . I t i s a d i ffic u lt c h o ic e , b u t it s c o n s e q u e n c e s a r e n o t p r o t e c t e d b y l a w. T h e o n l y ti m e t h e l a w s t e p s in i s w h e r e w it n e s s e s a r e c o m p e l l e d to te s t i fy i n o n e p r o c e e d i n g w h e n t h e r e is a n o t h e r p a r a l le l p r o c e e d i n g p e n d i n g a n d t h a t is th e n u b o f t h e a l l e g a ti o n - t h e s u b m is s io n s t h a t w e w h i c h t o m a k e b e f o r e y o u . T h e y a r e s u m m a r is e d o n p a g e 1 o f th e s u b m is s io n s a n d I w il l 10 d e a l w i th t h e s u m m a r y a n d t h e n f o r th e s a k e o f ti m e a n d c o n v e n i e n c e g o b r i e fl y t h r o u g h t h e r e s t o f t h e s u b m is s i o n s , b u t t h e s u b m is s i o n s a r e c o m p le t e d i n th e m s e lv e s . Th e f ir s t p o i n t is th a t in e s s e n c e w h a t t h e t w o w i tn e s s e s a r e s a y i n g t h a t i n th e s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s n o t o n ly d o t h e y h a v e a r i g h t t o r e m a in s il e n t, b u t a ls o t h e y h a v e a r i g h t t o p r e v e n t e v i d e n c e b e i n g g iv e n in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e i n q u ir y. T h a t g o e s m u c h f u r t h e r th a n th e o t h e r c ir c u ms t a n c e s d e a l t w i t h i n t h e c a s e s , b u t w h e r e a n a c c u s e d p e r s o n is i m p li c a t e d in p a r a ll e l c iv il a n d c r i m in a l p r o c e e d i n g s in t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d i n a fu t u r e 20 c r i m i n a l t r i a l . A s t a y o f t h e c i v il p r o c e e d i n g s o r t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s w i ll o n ly b e g r a n t e d w h e r e t h e r e is a n e l e m e n t o f c o m p u ls io n . I n o th e r w o r d s o n ly w h e r e th e a c c u s e d o r th e p o t e n t ia l a c c u s e d h a s n o c h o i c e , b u t m u s t te s ti fy. That is not the case here. T h e r e is a c h o i c e a n d t h a t c h o i c e i s a s f a r a s i t g o e s fo r t h e m . T h e y are not under any c o m p u ls io n to provide Page 24 of 148 any s e l f- in c r i m i n a t i n g 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 evidence. Yo u w i ll k n o w C h a ir t h a t t h e f u r th e s t t h a t t h e l a w g o e s t h e Ac t a n d t h e r e g u l a ti o n s is t o p r o v i d e s o m e d e g r e e o f p r o t e c ti o n a g a i n s t p e r s o n s a g a i n s t s e l f- i n c r i m i n a t i o n . T h a t c e r ta i n ly d o e s n o t g o s o f a r a s t o p r o te c t t h e S h a b a l a l a ’s o r th e A p p li c a n ts i n t h is c a s e . I n s t e a d t h e y f a c e a c h o ic e . N o w t h is c h o ic e h a s b e e n r e c o g n is e d i n a n u m b e r o f cases. T h e y m a y c h a l l e n g e t h e w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e b y t e s t i fy i n g a n d c r o s s - e x a m in i n g o r t h e y r e m a i n s il e n t. 10 T h e r e i s a t h i r d c h o ic e . T h e y m a y a p p ly t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a n d p u t th e ir v e r s i o n a f te r t h e c r i m i n a l tr i a l. T h a t is a t h ir d v i a m e d ia t h a t th e y m a y a d o p t. S u c h r ig h ts a s e x i s t i n l a w in c l u d i n g t h e r i g h t t o s e l f- in c r i m in a ti o n d o n o t p r o t e c t t h e A p p l ic a n t s i n t h i s c a s e . S u c h i n t e r e s t a s th e y h a v e a ll e g e d t o p r o t e c t tr ia l s t r a t e g y f o r e x a m p l e a r e n o t i n t e r e s ts t h a t a r e l e g a lly p r o te c te d . Th o s e i n t e r e s t s s u c h a s t h e y a r e t o r e v e a l t h e s tr a te g y t h a t t h e y m a y a d o p t i n c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n t o p u t t h e i r v e r s i o n in a p r i o r p r o c e e d i n g m u s t b e w e i g h e d - a s y o u h a v e p o i n te d o u t C h a i r - a g a i n s t t h e s t a tu t o r y d u ty o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o i n v e s ti g a te a n d h e a r e v id e n c e o f c r i m i n a l a c tiv i ty. 20 I t is in h e r e n t in t h e s ta t u to r y m a n d a t e o f t h is C o m m i s s io n t h a t it w il l h e a r e v i d e n c e o f c r i m i n a l a c tiv i ty b e f o r e a c r i m i n a l tr ia l . o th e r a p p r o a c h i s s i m p ly n o n s e n s ic a l . Any A s I h a v e p o in t e d o u t i f e v i d e n c e o f c r i mi n a l a c t iv i ty h a d t o b e s t a y e d fo r w h a te v e r r e a s o n in c l u d i n g t h e r e a s o n s h e r e p e n d i n g th e c o n c l u s io n o f a c r i m in a l tr i a l t h e r e w o u ld b e n o n e e d f o r th e C o m m i s s i o n a t a l l. C h a ir a n d … Page 25 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I - I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n d u r i n g M s S h a z i ’s a d d r e s s t h a t s h e r e c o g n is e d t h a t h e r c l i e n t s a t th is s t a g e h a v e n o t b e e n c o m p e l le d a n d m ig h t - th e y m i g h t n e v e r b e c o m p e ll e d t o te s ti fy i n r e g a r d t o is s u e s o r m a t t e r s w h i c h c o u ld in c r i m i n a te t h e m b e fo r e t h e tr i a l is h e a r d . S o t h e y a r e th e o n e s w h o c h o o s e - w h o m a y c h o o s e n o t to c h a l le n g e t h e e v id e n c e o f th e s e w i t n e s s e s a t le a s t a t t h i s s t a g e . I s e e m t o h a v e g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t s h e w a s r e ly i n g m o r e n o w o n s a y in g w e ll t h e r e a r e o t h e r w i tn e s s e s w h o w i ll b e c a ll e d a t tr ia l w h o 10 m a y - w h o w i ll b e lis t e n i n g t o t h is w i tn e s s e s a n d t h e y m i g h t a d ju s t t h e ir e v i d e n c e . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to s a y a n y t h in g a b o u t t h a t . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l C h a ir t h a t is i n h e r e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : In th e d u ty o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n . P o t e n t ia l criminal a c tiv i ty canvassed. or a l le g a ti o n s of c r i mi n a l a c t iv i t y are w id e l y N o t o n ly t h e a l l e g a ti o n s b u t t h e r e s p o n s e s t o t h e a l le g a ti o n s . I t g o e s t o t h e c e n tr a l p o in t o f w h a t is t h e m a n d a te o f t h i s Commission. I f t h i s C o m m is s i o n w e r e to d e l a y t h e h e a r i n g o f e v id e n c e 20 b e c a u s e w i t n e s s e s i n a f u t u r e c r i m i n a l t r i a l m a y l is t e n t o t h e - I m e a n t h e - t h e r e s u l t is a b s u r d . It j u s t c a n n o t e v e r b e t h a t t h e w o r k o f t h is C o m m i s s i o n m u s t b e c u r ta il e d , b e c a u s e p e o p l e m a y li s te n t o w h a t is g o i n g o n h e r e a n d m a y a d ju s t t h e ir e v id e n c e a c c o r d i n g ly i n l a te r c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s . I n fa c t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 26 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I t is i n h e r e n t i n t h e n o ti o n o f a p u b lic in q u ir y w h ic h m a y l e a d t o c r i m i n a l - c r i mi n a l p r o c e e d i n g s th a t t h e is s u e s a r e fu ll y c a n v a s s e d . I n f a c t t h e h i s t o r y o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n a n d it s c o n ti n u i n g w o r k w i ll b e b a s e d n o t o n l y o n a ll e g a ti o n s b e i n g m a d e , b u t a ll e g a t io n b e i n g f u lly d e a l t w it h fr o m a l l a n g l e s i n c lu d in g c o n tr a r y versions. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S o i t i s in e v i t a b le th a t t h e s e w i ll b e h e a r d … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i t i s - i t is c o n t e m p la t e d t h a t t h is b e s o i n g iv i n g t h e C o m m is s i o n t h a t m a n d a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : If I m a y … ? C H A I R P E R S O N : D o - d o y o u n e e d m o r e t h a n th r e e m i n u te s t o f in a l is e your submissions? A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : P o i n t t a k e n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : F i n e . I - I ju s t w a n t t o r e f e r y o u C h a ir to 20 p a r a g r a p h 4 5 w h ic h is o n e o f t h e c a s e s w h ic h r e c o g n is e s t h e in v o lv e m e n t o f a p e r s o n i n c l u d i n g a p o t e n t ia l a c c u s e d i n t w o f o r a w h e t h e r i t b e a D is c i p l in a r y In q u ir y o r w h e t h e r i t b e a S t a t u to r y I n q u ir y o r w h e th e r i t b e a C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y a n d th e - t h e p o s i t io n o f th e c o u r ts is t o s a y w h e n y o u a r e n o t c o m p e ll e d w h e r e y o u m i g h t h a v e a n a r g u m e n t a n d th e p r o t e c t io n th e r e i s j u s t l i m i t e d . Page 27 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 T h e e v i d e n c e c a n n o t b e u s e d la t e r. Yo u h a v e a c h o ic e . Yo u r c h o ic e m a y n o t b e a p l e a s a n t o n e . Yo u r c h o ic e m a y b e t o p u t y o u r v e r s i o n a n d s u ff e r t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f p u tt i n g y o u r v e r s i o n o r i t m a y b e t o r e m a in s i le n t a n d f a c e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f r e m a i n i n g s il e n t , b u t t h a t is y o u r c h o i c e a n d y o u m u s t f a c e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f y o u r c h o ic e . S i m p ly p u t s a y s t h e c o u r t . T h is is th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l . “ W h e n a p a r t y is r e q u ir e d t o a p p e a r i n d i ff e r e n t f o r a e a c h o f w h i c h h a s j u r i s d ic ti o n i n r e s p e c t o f t h e s u b j e c t m a t te r. 10 T h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h a t p a r ty d e a ls w i t h t h e p r o c e s s i n e a c h f o r u m is a m a t t e r o f c h o ic e w h ic h holds p a r ti c u l a r consequences a tt e n d a n t o n th e c h o ic e s o m a d e . ” T h e d i ffic u lt y i n t h e c h o ic e w h ic h i s r e c o g n is e d a n d t h e d i ff ic u l ty o f th e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f m a k i n g a c h o ic e o n e w a y o r t h e o th e r h a v e b e e n r e c o g n i s e d b y t h e c o u r ts , b u t th e y h a v e s a id a b s e n t c o m p u l s i o n t h a t is s i m p l y h o w i t m u s t b e . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms S h a z i . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: U n f o r t u n a t e l y C h a ir I w i ll n o t b e a b l e to r e s p o n d p o i n t b y p o i n t a s to w h a t m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d h a s s a i d . 20 I was not - as m u c h a s I - I s u p p l ie d th e m w it h m y w r i t te n a r g u m e n ts . I w a s n o t g iv e n t h e ir c o p y. W h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Is t h a t s o ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . W h e n th e l a d y h e r e a s k e d i f I s h o u ld b e f u r n is h e d w i th a c o p y t h e g e n t le m a n s a i d n o . S o I a m n o t s u r e w h y, b u t I d o n o t h a v e a c o p y o f t h e ir s u b m i s s io n s . Page 28 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: So I am not sure. I c a n n o t fo ll o w - I c o u ld n o t f o ll o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I d o n o t k n o w w h y I w a s n o t a ll o w e d t o h a v e a c o p y o f t h e ir s u b m is s io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: B u t b e i t a s i t m a y I h a v e f o r s o m e r e a s o n it w a s kept … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Well …. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: To - to t h e ms e lv e s . I … CHAIRPERSON: Well I can … A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y C h a ir i f I m a y i n t e r v e n e . T h a t w a s a c o m p l e te m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : It w a s th e i n t e n t io n to h a n d t h e c o p y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : When we addressed you and I apologise … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t it w a s n o t d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: I would i m a g in e it must have been a m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g . W e ll m a y b e - d o - d o y o u w a n t m e t o s t a n d th e - t o t o a d j o u r n a n d g iv e y o u a c h a n c e a t l e a s t to r e a d - I h a v e n o t r e a d i t m y s e l f . To - t o r e a d i t a n d … Page 29 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . I w o u l d - I w o u ld l o v e t o . CHAIRPERSON: And - and … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I w o u l d h a v e l o v e d t o d o th a t i n i t ia ll y w h e n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h e y h a d … CHAIRPERSON: So that when you respond … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A t t e m p t e d t o g iv e i t t o m e . CHAIRPERSON: So that when you respond at least you have had a chance to … 10 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e a d i t . W e a r e a t n i n e m i n u t e s t o 11 . I t i s - w e l l I s e e th e fir s t p a r t i s a b o u t n i n e /1 0 p a g e s . I t h in k t h e r e s t i s j u s t a u t h o r i t ie s . S h a l l I g iv e y o u - w h a t - 1 5 m i n u t e s o r … ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a t w i ll b e f in e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w i ll b e f in e . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: C a n I h a v e t h e a u t h o r i t ie s ? T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . W e w i ll a d j o u r n f o r 1 5 m i n u t e s . S o w e w i ll r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t 11 . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a n k y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir b e fo r e t h e r e p ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d id n o t e x p e c t t o s e e y o u . Ye s . Page 30 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y I j u s t u s e a fe w s e c o n d s o f th e t h r e e m i n u t e s t h a t I w a s g r a n t e d t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n j u s t t o … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Fo u r p a r a g r a p h s . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Fo u r s e c t io n s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e r e th e a u th o r it i e s d e a l s u c c i n c tl y w i th t h e is s u e s b e f o r e y o u . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I t is p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . T h e s e a r e o f o u r l e g a l s u b m is s io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 2 8 . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h s 3 2 a n d 3 3 a n d p a r a g r a p h 4 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Shazi. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I a m g o i n g t o b e v e r y s h o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 31 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: C h a ir w a s c o r r e c t . O u r - o u r g r i p e is n o t s o m u c h s o a s th a t w e a r e b e i n g d e n i e d t h e r ig h t t o r e m a in s il e n t. Our g r i p e is t h a t w e a r e b e in g d e n ie d th e r ig h t t o p r e s u m e d i n n o c e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: In - i n th a t c r i m i n a l a l le g a t i o n s o r e v i d e n c e a g a in s t m y c li e n t s is g o i n g t o b e v e n t il a t e d i n t h i s p u b lic fo r u m o th e r t h a n a c o u r t o f l a w. A v e r y, v e r y p u b lic f o r u m . Each case must be d e c i d e d o n i ts o w n m e r i t s . I - I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t m y l e a r n e d f r i e n d i s s a y in g . 10 T h a t i n - i n p a r a ll e l p r o c e e d i n g s y o u h a v e c iv i l p r o c e e d i n g s a n d y o u h a v e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a n d i n m o s t o f th e c a s e l a w t h a t h a s b e e n - t h a t w a s h a n d e d u p i t is m o s tl y d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g s w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e t e s ti f y i n g in d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g s . T h i s c a s e is d i ff e r e n t. W e a r e n o t ta lk in g a b o u t e v i d e n c e t h a t is b e i n g le d in a r o o m w i t h o n e s t e n o g r a p h e r a n d tw o o ffic i a ls a n d o n e p e r s o n h e a r i n g t h a t e v i d e n c e . W e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t e v id e n c e t h a t is l e d b e f o r e 5 0 m il li o n p e o p l e . I a m n o t s u r e h o w m a n y p e o p le a r e i n t h i s c o u n tr y. 5 0 m il li o n p e o p l e w h o a r e w a tc h i n g a n d o n e o f t h o s e p e o p l e is t h e P r e s id in g O ff ic e r w h o is g o i n g t o h e a r th is m a t t e r. T h a t P r e s i d i n g O ffic e r … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is - is t h a t y o u r b i g g e s t w o r r y ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: O n e o f m y b i g g e s t w o r r i e s . O n e o f my - o n e o f m y b i g g e s t w o r r ie s . I n f a c t i f C h a ir tu r n s in t o - in t o o n e o f - o f t h e p r e c e d e n ts t h a t w e r e h a n d e d u p . L a w S o c ie t y o f C a p e of G o o d H o p e vs Landau you see there on page 4-4-1 paragraph 15 the Judge there says - Judge of Appeal says: Page 32 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 “ I t u r n n o w t o t h e g e n e r a l p r in c i p l e a s it a p p li e s w h e r e t h e r e a r e b o th c r i m i n a l a n d c iv i l p r o c e e d in g s p e n d i n g w h i c h a r e b a s e d o n th e s a m e f a c t s . ” T h i s is w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g h e r e . “ T h e u s u a l p r a c ti c e is to s t a y t h e c iv il p r o c e e d in g s u n t il the criminal p r o c e e d in g s have been a d j u d ic a te d u p o n i f t h e a c c u s e d p e r s o n c a n s h o w t h a t h e o r s h e m i g h t b e p r e j u d ic e d i n t h e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s s h o u l d t h e c iv il p r o c e e d in g s b e h e a r d 10 fir s t. ” T h a t is w h y w e a r e h e r e . W e a r e h e r e to s a y th a t w e w o u ld b e p r e j u d ic e d i f th e c iv il p r o c e e d i n g s a r e h e a r d fi r s t … CHAIRPERSON: How - how …? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: B e fo r e t h e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a n d i t is … CHAIRPERSON: H o w w il l y o u b e p r e j u d ic e d s i m p l y b e c a u s e t h is w i t n e s s - th e s e t w o w i t n e s s e s g iv e e v i d e n c e h e r e b e f o r e t h e c r i m i n a l tr i a l s ta r t s ? I s e e b e n e f i t to y o u , b e c a u s e t h is w i t n e s s - t h e s e - y o u a r e g o i n g t o w a tc h t h e s e w i t n e s s e s a n d y o u c a n c o m e a n d s i t h e r e w a tc h t h e s e w i t n e s s e s g i v e e v id e n c e h e r e . 20 T h e s e w i tn e s s e s w i ll b e q u e s t io n e d b y t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e Commission. These … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W h o d o e s n o t r e p r e s e n t m y c l i e n t s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . T h e s e - t h e s e w i t n e s s e s a r e n o t t h e le g a l t e a m ’s c l ie n ts . Th e l e g a l t e a m is n o t ta k i n g a n y b o d y ’s s i d e . Th e y w a n t t o e s t a b l is h w h a t t h e tr u t h is . T h e r u le s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n m a k e t h a t Page 33 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 c le a r t h a t a m e m b e r o f t h e le g a l t e a m is e n t i tl e d t o q u e s ti o n a w i t n e s s t o e s t a b l is h t h e t r u t h . S o y o u w il l b e w a t c h i n g . Yo u r c li e n t s w il l b e w a tc h i n g a n d s e e h o w t h e s e w i tn e s s e s a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s . B y t h e t i m e t h a t t h e y t e s t if y i n t h e c r i m in a l t r i a l y o u r c li e n t s h a v e a lr e a d y w a tc h e d a n d l is t e n e d t o t h e m a s t h e y g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d t h e y g e t g iv e n - t h e y a s k e d - t h e y g e t a s k e d q u e s ti o n s a n d t h e y a n s w e r. I s e e a l o t o f b e n e f it f o r a n a c c u s e d p e r s o n w h o g e t s that chance. T h e fir s t c h a n c e - t h e fi r s t b e n e fi t a n a c c u s e d g e t s is w h e n 10 t h e y g e t t h e s ta t e m e n t o f a w i t n e s s w h o w i ll g e t t o g i v e e v i d e n c e . S o t h e y k n o w in a d v a n c e th is is w h a t t h i s w i t n e s s w i ll s a y. N o w h e r e t h e y w i ll g e t t h e f u r th e r a d v a n ta g e t h a t th e w it n e s s e s w i ll t e s t if y in o p e n . N o t o n ly t h a t t h e y w il l b e q u e s ti o n e d a b o u t th e ir e v i d e n c e . S o y o u r c l i e n ts g e t a c h a n c e to e v e n b e m o r e p r e p a r e d f o r w h e n th e s e w i t n e s s e s te s t i fy i n th e c r i m i n a l tr ia l . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I t a k e - I t a k e t h e C h a ir ’s p o in t . w i t n e s s e s w il l b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s f o r c l a r it y. Ye s th e - th e T h e y w i ll n o t b e c r o s s - e x a m in e d . CHAIRPERSON: Well … 20 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a y fo r c l a r it y. I s a y th e r u l e s s a y t o e s t a b l is h t h e tr u th . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W i ll t h a t b e t a n t a m o u n t t o c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t a m o u n ts t o t h a t , b u t i t s a y s t o e s ta b lis h th e tr u th . Page 34 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I - I ta k e - I t a k e t h e C h a i r ’s p o i n t , b u t w h a t … CHAIRPERSON: But … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u r - y o u r c li e n t s … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Have a r ig h t to a p p ly to me fo r leave to c r o s s - e x a m in e th e s e w i t n e s s e s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: W e u n d e r s ta n d th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e i f th e y d o th a t t h e y h a v e g o t t o p u t u p t h e ir 10 v e r s i o n a n d I th i n k th a t is w h e r e y o u r c li e n t s ’ p r o b l e m o r p a r t o f t h e p r o b le m w a s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: P a r t o f th e p r o b le m . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: P a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m ; a n d - a n d C h a ir i s c o r r e c t in s a y in g th a t w e c a n s i t h e r e a n d w e c a n l is t e n t o t h e e v i d e n c e . My c li e n t s w i ll b e l is te n in g t o t h e e v i d e n c e . O u r p r o b l e m i s th a t e v e r y o n e e ls e w i ll b e l is te n in g t o t h e e v i d e n c e . T h e r e w i ll n o t b e a r e a s o n w h y a P r e s i d i n g J u d g e d o e s n o t h a v e f o r e s i g h t o f th e e v i d e n c e t h a t is g o in g to be led. 20 T h e r e is n o t g o i n g t o b e a r e a s o n w h y w i t n e s s e s a r e n o t e v e n - th e P r o s e c u ti o n P o lic y is t h a t y o u c a n n o t e v e n c o n s u lt w i t h t w o witnesses at the same time. Yo u c a n n o t, b e c a u s e i t is v e r y, v e r y i m p o r t a n t th a t w i t n e s s e s b e c o m e i m p a r ti a l . w i t n e s s e s te s ti fy in d e p e n d e n tly. I t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I n t h e i n d e p e n d e n t r e c o ll e c ti o n o f what happened. Page 35 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 T h i s i s n o t g o in g t o h a p p e n w h e n - i f - i f t h is w i t n e s s is a l lo w e d t o t e s t if y. T h e r e w i ll b e n o p o i n t t o i t, b u t t h e c o u r ts a r e v e r y r ig o r o u s in m a k in g s u r e t h a t t h e r i g h ts o f t h e a c c u s e d w h e n i t c o m e s t o w i t n e s s e s w h o a r e t e s t if y i n g b e i n g in d e p e n d e n t i s - i s n o t in fr in g e d u p o n , b e c a u s e it g o e s t o t h e h e a r t o f t h e r i g h t to b e p r e s u m e d in n o c e n t . I f th e r e w a s n o c o n s e q u e n c e a n d s e r i o u s d ir e p r e ju d i c e t o t h e a c c u s e d t h e n e v e r y w i t n e s s w i ll b e a l l o w e d t o s it in c o u r t a n d h e a r t h e e v i d e n c e . H e r e i t is n o t - th e C o m m i s s io n is a d r a w c a r d . P e o p l e a r e 10 d r a w n in t o li s t e n i n g to t h is e v id e n c e - t o t h e e v id e n c e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d e v e r y b o d y w h o w il l b e te s ti fy i n g in t h e ir tr i a l. T h e p a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m i s t h e p a r t o f r e m a in i n g s il e n t a n d a n d m y c li e n t s h a v i n g t o c o m e h e r e a n d - a n d c r o s s - e x a m in e , b u t t h a t t h a t i s a c h o i c e . T h e y d o n o t h a v e a c h o ic e … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o y o u r e a l is e … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I n h a v i n g … CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u r e a li s e t h a t th e r e a r e - t h e r e m a y b e m a n y p e r s o n s w h o w i ll b e c h a r g e d a ft e r th e C o m m i s s i o n h a s f in is h e d i ts e v i d e n c e i n r e s p e c t o f w h o m - w h o s e tr i a l t h e r e m a y b e w i t n e s s e s w h o 20 w h o w il l h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e r e c o r d s o f th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e s t a te m e n ts - p u b lic s t a t e m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n g i v e n h e r e . So - so p e o p l e w i ll g e t to k n o w w h o - w h o s a i d w h a t … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n c l u d i n g w i t n e s s e s w h o w il l t e s ti f y. Th e y w i ll g e t t o k n o w. Page 36 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I a m - I a m v e r y a liv e t o th a t C h a i r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: A n d I a p p r e c i a te t h a t . I w il l t a k e th r e e m o r e m i n u t e s . I a m v e r y a li v e t o t h a t a n d I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: M y g r i p e w i th t h a t i s th a t th a t m a y h a p p e n o r m a y n o t h a p p e n . T h a t is w h y w e a r e h e r e . T h a t is w h y t h o s e p e o p le … CHAIRPERSON: Well hang on. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - in r e g a r d t o p e r s o n s w h o g e t c h a r g e d … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Once they get charged … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r th e C o m m i s s i o n h a s fi n is h e d i t s w o r k . Th e y a r e - t h e y - t h e y a r e i n th e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s y o u r c li e n t in t h e s e n s e t h a t a l t h o u g h t h e w i t n e s s e s h a v e g iv e n e v id e n c e . T h e y w il l h a v e a c c e s s . O t h e r w i t n e s s c a n h a v e a c c e s s a n d c o u ld a c tu a l ly h a v e h a d - li s te n e d t o e v i d e n c e w i t h o u t k n o w in g th a t n e c e s s a r i ly t h e y w i ll b e c a ll e d . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . I - I a g r e e . I … 20 CHAIRPERSON: But they get called … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y d id h e a r t h e e v i d e n c e . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: M y - m y p o in t t o th e C h a ir a s I s a y it is a m a y b e Page 37 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t h a t a f t e r t h is C o m m i s s io n h a s - h a s c o n c lu d e t h e s t a te w i ll h a v e - b y t h e s ta t e I m e a n t h e p r o s e c u ti o n . Th e y w il l h a v e a c h a n c e t o d o f u r t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n s . Th e y m a y n o t e v e n l e a d e v i d e n c e th a t i s b e in g l e d a t t h is C o m m is s i o n . I t is v e r y p o s s ib l e t h a t t h e ir - th e ir i n v e s ti g a ti o n m a y h a v e d i ff e r e n t l e g s . T h e y - t h e y c a n c o m e u p w it h a n e n t ir e ly d i ff e r e n t s e t o f c h a r g e s . I t m i g h t b e s ta n d i n g fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e , b u t th e y m a y n o t l e a d e v i d e n c e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s t h a t h a v e t e s ti f i e d h e r e . S o t h e r e is a l o t o f m a y b e a n d p r e s u p p o s i ti o n s a n d I t a k e t h a t f r o m w h a t t h e C h a ir i s 10 s a y in g . I a m h e r e t o s a y i t w i ll h a p p e n . I t is g o i n g t o h a p p e n . The p r e j u d ic e … CHAIRPERSON: Well … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I s r e a l. CHAIRPERSON: Well … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Th e r e is n o lik e li h o o d o f i t . I t is g o i n g t o happen. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e “ w il l ” a n d “ m a y b e ” a r e o n d i ff e r e n t th i n g s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 T h e “ w il l ” a n d th e “ m a y b e ” a r e o n d i ffe r e n t th i n g s . W h e n I t a lk a b o u t w i ll h a p p e n it i s c e r t a in t h i n g s , b u t w h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t w h a t e v e r p r e j u d ic e y o u s a y y o u r c l ie n t w o u l d s u ffe r. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e s a m e p r e j u d ic e t h a t a n y b o d y … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: M a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll s u ff e r i f t h e y a r e a c c u s e d . T h e y a r e c h a r g e d … Page 38 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A f t e r t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s fi n is h e d it s w o r k . Tw o , a w i t n e s s i s c a ll e d w h o h a s li s t e n e d t o t h e e v id e n c e o f c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u said certain witnesses m ig h t a d ju s t t h e ir evidence. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So because they have had access or they have heard w h a t th e s e w i t n e s s e s s a y. 10 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o in r e g a r d t o t h o s e p e o p le t h a t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e s a m e t h i n g a ls o c o u ld h a p p e n w h e n s o m e b o d y is c h a r g e d . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I h e a r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : In y o u r c a s e y o u r c l ie n t i s g o i n g t o t r i a l … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d s o m e - s o m e w it n e s s y o u s a y m a y a d j u s t t h e ir evidence. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I h a v e p u t t h e “ m a y s ” to g e th e r … 20 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e “ w ill ” t o g e t h e r. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . W h a t I a m c o m p l a in in g a b o u t is t h a t t h e “ m a y s ” a t th e e n d o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n p e o p l e m a y n o t b e c h a r g e d . It w i ll d e p e n d w h a t t h e s ta t e is - is i n te n d s o n d o i n g . P e o p l e m a y n o t b e c h a r g e d . W i t n e s s e s m a y n o t b e c a l le d . T h e p r e j u d ic e w i ll b e f a l l … Page 39 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: If - i f t h e y a r e c h a r g e d . S o t h e n th e r e w il l n o t b e a n y p r e ju d i c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t d o y o u a g r e e t h a t th o s e a r e c h a r g e d w i ll b e in t h e s a m e p o s i t io n a s y o u r c l ie n t ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I f - if t h e y a r e c h a r g e d . CHAIRPERSON: T h o s e w h o w il l b e c h a r g e d . Yo u d o a g r e e t h a t t h a t c a t e g o r y w o u l d b e i n th e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s y o u r c li e n t . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: 10 S o w e k n o w t h a t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e t h a t w il l b e charged. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . If t h a t c a t e g o r y h a p p e n s … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u a g r e e t h a t t h e y w ill b e i n th e s a m e p o s i ti o n a s y o u r c li e n t ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I d o i f t h e s ta t e u s e s t h e s a m e e v id e n c e . I f t h e s t a te CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: U s e s t h e s a m e e v i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a t - t h a t i s w h e r e I a m . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I f t h e s t a t e . T h e r e a r e s o m a n y i fs a n d b u ts a n d p r e s u p p o s i t io n s . T h e y m a y n o t e v e n b e p r e j u d ic e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: It m a y j u s t e n d u p b e in g j u s t m y c l ie n t . Page 40 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m m a k in g y o u t a k e l o n g . Yo u s a id y o u w o u ld be short. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I t m a y j u s t b e - y e s - y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: It m a y j u s t b e m y c li e n t . T h e r e is a n “ i f ” i t m a y n o t h a p p e n a n d in f a c t t h e s t a t e m a y j u s t n o t d o i t to g u a r d a g a in s t t h i s c o m p la i n t , b e c a u s e t h is c o m p la in t m a y h a p p e n a t a l a t e r tr ia l . They m a y t h e n d e c i d e t o d o t h e ir o w n in v e s ti g a ti o n a n d g e t th e ir f r e s h evidence. 10 I t m a y b e p r e m is e d u p o n t h e - t h e w o r k o f th e C o m m i s s i o n , b u t t o g u a r d a g a i n s t t h is c o m p l a in t , b e c a u s e i t w il l b e r a is e d . They m a y n o t d o i t , b e c a u s e th e y a r e a l iv e t o it , b u t t h a t w il l n o t b e . F o r m y c li e n t th e - th e - t h a t s h i p w o u ld h a v e s a il e d . I t w o u ld h a v e g o n e . T h e S C A r e c o g n is e d t h a t i t is g e n e r a l p r in c i p l e . T h a t i f y o u c a n p r o v e p r e j u d ic e t h e n th e c iv il p r o c e e d i n g s m u s t s t a y u n t il th e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s h a v e b e e n - i t - i t is a g e n e r a l p r i n c i p l e u n ti l t h e c r i m in a l p r o c e e d in g s h a v e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t w h a t u s t o t a k e to o l o n g , b u t I d o n o t - I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d th e a u th o r it i e s t o w h ic h M r Pr e t o r i u s r e f e r r e d to b e 20 s a y in g t h a t . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I h a v e … CHAIRPERSON: T h e y - th e y p l a c e r e li a n c e o n c o m p u ls io n a s I understand that … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . I n t h e s a m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e r e t h e r e is n o c o m p u ls io n . Page 41 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I - I - t h e r e i s w h e n i t c o m e s t o r e m a i n s i le n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: B u t y o u - t h a t i s n o t t h e o n ly p r e j u d ic e t h a t y o u c a n s h o w. Yo u c a n s h o w o th e r p r e j u d ic e . I h a v e q u o te d o n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 w h e r e i t s a y s it i s a g e n e r a l p r i n c ip le . Yo u c a n s h o w p r e ju d i c e . Yo u c a n n o t o n ly s h o w p r e j u d ic e b e c a u s e y o u r r ig h t to r e m a in s il e n t h a s b e e n i n fr i n g e d . T h e r e a r e o t h e r p r e j u d ic e t h a t y o u c a n s h o w w h ic h is w h a t w e a r e tr y i n g t o d o . To s h o w p r e j u d ic e t h a t t h e r e a r e r i g h t s t o a f a ir tr i a l is 10 g o i n g t o b e i n fr i n g e d . T h e r i g h ts t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: B e p r e s u m e d i n n o c e n t t o a f a ir t r i a l w il l b e in fr in g e d i f m y c li e n ts ’ tr ia l is v e n ti la t e d b e f o r e i t is d o n e in t h e c r i m i n a l court. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u n e e d m o r e t h a n t h r e e mi n u te s n o w ? A r e y o u done? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I a m d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I … M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: J u s t o n e - o n e m o r e t h i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H u h - u h . M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: One point. T h e s t a tu t o r y o b l ig a ti o n s o f t h e Page 42 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C o m m i s s i o n d o n o t t r u m p c o n s t it u ti o n a l r ig h ts o f a n a c c u s e d p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: T h e y c a n n o t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I f t h a t w e r e t o b e a ll o w e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I t w i ll b e a s a d s ta t e o f a ff a ir s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Thank you. M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: I a m d o n e n o w. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e d o n e n o w ? M S K H U M B U S H A Z I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t. I a m g o i n g t o d is m i s s th e a p p lic a ti o n . I f th e A p p l ic a n t s r e a l ly r e q u ir e m e t o g i v e r e a s o n s t h e y w i ll r e q u e s t t h e m a n d t h e n t h e y w il l b e g iv e n . T h e a p p lic a ti o n is d i s m is s e d . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e r e a d y t o c o n t in u e ? A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir w e a r e r e a d y t o c o n t i n u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 M s W e n tz e l w il l deal with th e next witness. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y I … ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O r s h o u ld w e - m a y b e w e s h o u ld t a k e … A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : J a . Th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f fi le s th a t n e e d to be … Page 43 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W e n e e d t o c le a r o u r o w n m e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w il l - w e w i ll t a k e … A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S o C h a ir c o u l d w e ta k e f iv e m i n u te s ? CHAIRPERSON: W e w i ll t a k e a n a d jo u r n m e n t t h a t w ill t a k e t h e p l a c e o f th e t e a b r e a k . O n m y w a tc h i t is 2 2 m i n u te s p a s t . W e w i l l r e s u m e a t 20 to. A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 to 1 2 . W e a d j o u r n . 10 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Ms W e n tz e l a r e y o u r e a d y ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s C h a ir, C h a ir b e f o r e I s t a r t M r M a n e k l a l ju s t w a n ts t o p u t h is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o n r e c o r d i f t h a t is s u it a b l e ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M A N E K L A L: Good morning Judge. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. M R M A N E K L A L: J u d g e a s e a r l ie r a ll u d e d t o i n c h a m b e r s I r e c o r d t h a t I a m h e r e r e p r e s e n t in g M E C P e g g y N k o n y e n i. 20 H u m a n S e t t l e m e n t s a n d P u b lic W o r k s . J u d g e s h e is t h e M E C f o r Judge we have received the n o t ic e q u i t e l a te b u t w e h a v e r e c e i v e d th e n o ti c e n o n e th e le s s a n d J u d g e fo r t h e r e c o r d w e – s h e d e s e r v e s t h e r ig h t t o fil e a n a ff i d a v i t o r b r i n g a n a p p li c a t io n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e th e w i t n e s s i f i t r e a ll y b e c o m e s n e c e s s a r y a ft e r t h e w i t n e s s h a s te s t i fi e d . J u d g e I a m a ls o o n S a t u r d a y I w a s s e r v e d w i t h th e – I w a s Page 44 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 s e n t, f o r w a r d e d t h e n o tic e f o r G e n e r a l N g u b e n i , t h e f o r m e r Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, i n r e l a ti o n t o th e w i t n e s s w h o is a ls o p r e s e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R M A N E K L A L: I h a v e d u ly f o r w a r d e d t o h e r a n d s h e h a s a d v is e d m e t o f u r n is h t h e s a m e r e s e r v a t io n a f t e r t h e w i t n e s s t e s t i fi e s t o th e n d e c i d e o n h e r a l t e r n a t iv e s th a t a r e a v a il a b l e t o h e r i n t e r m s o f t h e rules. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, n o t h a t ’s fi n e . M R M A N E K L A L: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. M s W e n tz e l I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r it is y o u o r a n y b o d y w h o p u t t h a t i n t h e r e , i t s h o u ld b e s e p a r a t e , i t is m o r e c o n v e n i e n t t h a t w a y. I h o p e t h e w it n e s s ’s o n e i s a ls o s o b r i e f . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s i t is a n d C h a ir I t o o k t h e l ib e r ty o f d o in g it fo r t h a t v e r y p u r p o s e b e c a u s e w h e n w e ’r e r e f e r r in g t o s o m a n y a n n e x u r e s I th o u g h t i t m i g h t b e h e l p f u l f o r a l l o f u s to h a v e th e a ff id a v i t it s e l f s e p a r a te . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u s e e i f y o u w a n t i t t o b e h e r e d o n ’ t p u t in a fi le c o v e r, j u s t p u t t h e s t a t e m e n t , b u t o n c e y o u p u t i t i n a fi le i t i s a fi le 20 o n i ts o w n a n d i t i s q u i t e a w k w a r d f o r it t o b e h e r e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] W h a t d o y o u w a n t t o d o w i t h t h is ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: What I was proposing was that the statement w o u ld b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T R R 4 a n d th a t e a c h o f t h e n e x t fi le s w h i c h c o n ta in a n n e x u r e s w o u l d b e m a r k e d R R 4 A , B , C , D , i f t h a t w a s a Page 45 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 c o n v e n i e n c e w a y fo r y o u ? CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w il l b e A , B , C , D ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: E a c h – a l l t h e o t h e r f il e s in fr o n t o f y o u , y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e a r e fo u r f il e s , I t h i n k y o u ’ v e g o t o n e . CHAIRPERSON: I ’v e o n ly g o t tw o fi le s i n fr o n t o f m e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Yo u ’ v e g o t a n A , th e r e s h o u ld b e a B a n d a C a n d a D fi l e . CHAIRPERSON: A r e t h e s e a ll a n n e x u r e s t o M r W h i t e ’s s t a t e m e n t ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h e y a r e . J a , t h e y c a n b e A , B , C u p t o w h a te v e r b u t w h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t i s w h e th e r y o u w a n t h i s s t a t e m e n t , h is a ffi d a v i t , t o b e p a r t of A? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I t h in k i t w o u l d b e m o r e c o n v e n i e n t if i t w a s n ’ t p a r t o f A , i t is s e p a r a te a n d i t i s ju s t o n i ts o w n c a ll e d R R 4 . It c o u l d b e R R 4 ( 1 ) b u t i t c o u l d j u s t b e R R 4 a n d t h e n t h e e x h i b i ts w i ll b e fi le s A , B , C a n d D , w h i c h e v e r is c o n v e n ie n t. CHAIRPERSON: J a w e w il l h a v e i t s e p a r a te a n d th e n m a y b e y o u m a y h a v e t o p u t i t i n t o a s m a ll e r le v e r a r c h f il e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 C h a ir I w i ll a r r a n g e f o r th a t f o r y o u t o b e done over the lunch adjournment. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, d o y o u w a n t m e t o a d m i t t h e s e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: I w o u ld lik e y o u t o a d m i t t h e s e e x h ib i ts . T h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr Tr e v o r S e a n W h i te is a d m it t e d a n d w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T R R 4 , t h e n t h e r e a r e f o u r le v e r a r c h f il e s w h ic h c o n t a in v a r i o u s a n n e x u r e s t o th a t a ffi d a v i t a n d o n e fi l e w il l b e Page 46 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 m a r k e d R R 4 A , a n o t h e r o n e R R 4 B , a n o t h e r o n e R R 4 C a n d th e l a s t o n e RR4D. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Th a n k y o u C h a i r. C h a ir a l s o fo r t h e r e c o r d b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e j u s t in r e s p o n s e to M r M a n e k l a l ’s s ta t e m e n t t h a t h e o n l y r e c e iv e d t h e n o ti c e s o n S a tu r d a y, C h a ir I h a v e s h o w n h i m t h e printout prepared by the Secretariat which shows that these n o t ic e s w e r e s e n t t o b o t h o f h i s c li e n t s o n t h e 2 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 9 a n d b o t h o f t h e s e w e r e d e li v e r e d . H e i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t p e r h a p s t h e r e ’s a p r o b le m w i th th e ir e m a il s e r v e r th e i r s i d e b u t fr o m th e C o m m i s s io n ’s 10 s id e t h o s e n o t ic e s w e r e ti m e o u s ly s e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n i s te r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n t o t h e w i tn e s s . REGISTRAR: WITNESS: P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . Tr e v o r S e a n W h i t e . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? WITNESS: I do not. REGISTRAR: 20 D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r conscience? WITNESS: I do. REGISTRAR: D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . TREVOR SEAN WHITE ( d u ly s w o r n , s t a t e s ) Page 47 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , y o u m a y p r o c e e d . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr White have you s u b m i tt e d a n a ffi d a v i t to t h e C o m m i s s i o n ? MR WHITE: I have. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d is t h e a ff id a v it w i th o u t t h e a n n e x u r e s r e fe r r e d t o i n E x h i b i t R R 4 in fr o n t o f y o u ? MR WHITE: I t is C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C a n I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 5 7 o f th a t a ffi d a v i t , in f a c t s o r r y, 5 6 o f t h a t a ff id a v i t, is th a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e ? 10 MR WHITE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d y o u c o n f ir m t h a t th e a v e r m e n t s in th e a ffi d a v i t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? MR WHITE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Mr White where are you c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d a n d w h a t is y o u r p o s i ti o n in t h a t c o m p a n y ? MR WHITE: C h a ir I a m a p a r t n e r a n d d ir e c t o r o f Pr ic e Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s a n d I w o r k in t h e f o r e n s i c i n v e s ti g a ti o n s d e p a r t m e n t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M R W H I T E: 20 A n d w h a t a r e y o u r q u a l i fic a ti o n s ? C h a ir I h a v e a B a c h e lo r o f C o m m e r c e d e g r e e , w h i c h I o b t a i n e d i n 1 9 8 7 , a p o s t- g r a d u a te d ip l o m a in A c c o u n t a n c y w h i c h I o b t a i n e d i n 1 9 8 9 , I w a s a d m it t e d a s a m e m b e r o f t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n I n s ti t u te o f C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n ts in 1 9 9 2 a n d I w a s a ls o a d mi t t e d a s a m e m b e r o f t h e A s s o c i a t i o n o f C e r ti f ie d Fr a u d E x a m in e r s i n 1 9 9 8 . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d w h a t i s y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a s a f o r e n s ic a u d it o r ? Page 48 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 MR WHITE: C h a ir I h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d in c o n d u c t in g f o r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t io n s s i n c e 1 9 9 6 , I h a v e c o n d u c t e d w h a t m u s t b e m o r e t h a n 1 0 0 0 i n v e s ti g a ti o n s d u r i n g t h a t t i m e , I h a v e t e s t if i e d in c o u r t o n in v e s t i g a t io n s c o n d u c t e d o f w h i c h I w o u l d s a y 9 0 % a r e c r i m i n a l m a t t e r s a n d I h a v e te s ti fi e d m o r e t h a n 5 0 t i m e s in S o u th A fr ic a n c o u r ts a n d t h e L e s o t h o H ig h C o u r t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M r W h i t e c o u l d y o u t e l l th e C h a ir h o w y o u b e c a m e i n v o l v e d i n th e in v e s ti g a t io n in t o t h e c o n tr a c ts a w a r d e d b y t h e S o u th A f r i c a n P o li c e S e r v ic e s in K w a Z u lu N a t a l t o t h e b u s i n e s s m a n M r 10 Thoshan Panday? M R W H I T E: C h a i r P r ic e W a t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s w a s o n t h e p o l ic e p a n e l o f f o r e n s ic a c c o u n ta n ts , i t c o m e s o u t e v e r y th r e e y e a r s , w e h a d s u b m i tt e d i t a n d w e w e r e o n t h a t p a n e l . T h e r e w a s t h e n a r e q u e s t t o p r o v i d e a q u o t a ti o n i n t e r m s o f t h a t p a n e l w h i c h w e d id a n d w e w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly a p p o i n te d t o a s s i s t t h e p o li c e w i t h u n d e r t a k in g t h e f o r e n s ic in v e s ti g a t io n in s u p p o r t o f c a s e 7 8 1 a s i t w a s k n o w n th is w a s t h e c a s e r e la t in g t o t h e a l le g a ti o n s o f ir r e g u l a r i ti e s a n d c o r r u p ti o n r e l a ti n g t o p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e S o u th A f r i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e s in K w a Zu lu N a t a l r e la t in g to a m o n g s t o t h e r s t h e p r o c u r e m e n t r e l a ti n g t o th e W o r ld 20 Cup in 2010. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. P u r s u a n t to y o u r m a n d a t e d i d you prepare a report? MR WHITE: I d i d C h a ir, t h e r e p o r t w h ic h I is s u e d o n th e 2 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w a s s o m e 4 0 0 p a g e s l o n g , i t is a t ta c h e d t o t h is a ffi d a v i t a n d a t t a c h e d t o th a t r e p o r t is 2 0 le v e r a r c h f il e s o f s u p p o r t in g Page 49 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h i c h is c r o s s - r e fe r e n c e d t o t h a t r e p o r t C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And if you have regard to Annexure TSW1, it ’s Vo lu m e A , E x h i b i t A , d o e s t h a t e n t ir e f il e c o m p r i s e o f y o u r r e p o r t. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w ill h a v e to b e c o n s is t e n t a n d b e – a n d u s e t h e c o r r e c t e x h i b i t n a m e , a r e y o u r e f e r r in g to E x h i b i t R R 4 A ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, w h a t p a g e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: MR WHITE: 10 RR4A yes, thank you. Page 59. C h a ir t h a t i s c o r r e c t , t h a t r e p o r t t h a t s t a r ts a t p a g e 5 9 o f R R 4 A t h e fr o n t p a g e o f t h a t r e p o r t i s s ig n e d b y m y s e l f a n d m y s ig n a tu r e a ls o a p p e a r s a t t h e la s t p a g e o f t h a t r e p o r t , w h ic h is t h e l a s t p a g e in that bundle at page 510. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: A n d i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 11 5 . O n e , o n e , f iv e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , is th is a l is t o f a ll t h e a n n e x u r e s t o y o u r r e p o r t , t h e d o c u m e n t a r y e v id e n c e ? MR WHITE: C h a ir t h a t i s a l is t o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e p r o v id e d to P r ic e W a t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s t o a s s is t u s w it h d o i n g t h e a n a ly s is o f th e 20 p r o c u r e m e n t i n f l o w o f f u n d s b e t w e e n th e v a r i o u s e n ti t ie s . O n ly t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e s t h e r e i n w e r e a t ta c h e d a s , t h a t I a c t u a l ly r e f e r r e d t o m y r e p o r t a r e a t t a c h e d to t h e r e p o r t , b u t t h a t is a to t a l li s t o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e p o l ic e p r o v id e d a n d o n e c a n s e e fr o m p a g e 11 8 th e r e w a s 4 3 7 0 0 d o c u m e n t s , p a g e s o f d o c u m e n ta t io n . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e in f o r m a t io n in t h e c o l u m n s a t p a g e s 11 5 to Page 50 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 11 8 d o e s i t r e f le c t a r e c o r d a l o f a l l d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e g iv e n t o y o u b y t h e p o li c e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d M r W h it e o n p a g e 11 4 p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 0 1 y o u d e a l w i t h th e s o u r c e s o f i n f o r m a t io n u s e d t o c o m p i le t h i s r e p o r t , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t t h o s e s o u r c e s w e r e . MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e y w e r e a l l d o c u m e n t s p r o v i d e d t o Pr ic e Wa t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s b y th e in v e s t i g a t in g o ffic e r a n d h is t e a m a n d t h e 10 s o u r c e o f t h e d o c u m e n ts w e r e d o c u m e n t s t h a t c a m e f r o m t h e s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t o f t h e p o l ic e , i n c lu d i n g th e ir p o li c y. T h e r e w a s b a n k s ta t e m e n ts th a t h a d b e e n s u b p o e n a e d a s w e ll a s i m a g e s o f v a r i o u s c o m p u t e r s w h ic h th e p o l ic e c y b e r c r i m e u n it h a d m a d e a n d h a d p r o v i d e d t o u s t o u n d e r ta k e t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: F in a l ly M r W h i t e o n p a g e 11 2 , p a r a g r a p h 4 .0 0 2 i n t h e s e c o n d l in e y o u s a y : “ T h e s c o p e o f m y w o r k w a s li m i t e d t o a r e v i e w o f t h e d o c u m e n t a r y e v id e n c e m a d e a v a il a b l e to m e a n d e n q u ir i e s u n d e r t a k e n t o a d d r e s s i s s u e s i d e n ti f ie d i n e x e c u t io n o f t h e 20 in v e s t i g a t io n u n d e r ta k e n . ” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR WHITE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Yo u a ls o s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 o n p a g e 11 3 , t h a t ’s 6 . 0 0 1 t h a t th is r e p o r t f o c u s e s o n d o c u m e n t a r y e v i d e n c e p r o v id e d b y th e S A P S w h ic h d o c u m e n t s h a d b e e n a c q u ir e d Page 51 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 fr o m th e S A P S S C M D iv is io n , O p e r a ti o n a l R e s p o n d S e r v ic e s , G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g , U n i te M z a n s i Tr a d in g , C a s ia f Tr a d e r s , Br a v o S a t 2 5 C C , Va lo t o n e 2 1 C C a n d th e r e s i d e n c e o f P a n d a y i n a d d it i o n t o t h e b a n k a c c o u n t s o f th e a f o r e m e n ti o n e d e n t it i e s , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR WHITE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o u l d y o u p l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t w a s th e n a t u r e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n , w h a t w a s it a b o u t ? MR WHITE: C h a ir t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e l a te d t o v a r i o u s a l le g a ti o n s r e l a ti n g t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s b y t h e S o u th A f r i c a n 10 P o lic e S e r v ic e s i n K w a Z u l u N a t a l , i n t h e le a d u p t o t h e W o r ld C u p i n 2010. T h e o v e r a ll a ll e g a t i o n w a s th a t e n ti ti e s l i n k e d to Mr To s h a n P a n d a y, w h e n I s a y l i n k e d e n t i ti e s i n h i s w i f e ’s n a m e o r h is m o t h e r ’s n a m e o r h i s b r o t h e r - i n - la w ’s n a m e w e r e u s e d t o p r o v i d e q u o te s w h e r e n o t h ir d p a r ty w a s p r o v id in g a q u o t e a n d t h a t t h is e n a b l e d t h e m t o quote s i g n i fi c a n tl y above market related prices, thereby making s ig n if ic a n t p r o fi t s t h a t w o u l d n o t b e i n th e n o r m a l c o u r s e o f b u s in e s s a n d t h a t p o l ic e m e n w i t h i n th e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t , b e i n g C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d C a p t a in N a r a i n p e r s a d a s s is te d th e m in 20 a s s u r in g t h a t th e y r e c e i v e th is b e n e fi c i a l tr e a t m e n t a n d o v e r t h e s a m e p e r i o d M r P a n d a y ’s e n ti t ie s w e r e p u r c h a s in g g i f ts f o r t h e m t h a t w e r e e n a b l in g to c ir c u m v e n t t h e s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s o f t h e p o li c e , s o e ff e c tiv e ly th is r e p o r t t h a t I p r e p a r e d s u m m a r is e s t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , s h o w s h o w it w a s c i r c u m v e n t e d , C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d C a p t a i n N a r a i n p e r s a d h e l p e d w i t h th a t p r o c e s s . Page 52 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 W e t h e n s h o w t h e b e n e f i ts t h a t t h e y r e c e iv e d a n d h o w t h e y r e c e i v e d i t a n d th e n a t t h e s a m e t i m e s h o w t h e b e n e fi t t h a t f o r m e r P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r N g u b e n i , th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f a b ir t h d a y p a r ty f o r h e r h u s b a n d w a s p a i d f o r b y Mr P a n d a y a t th e s a m e ti m e th a t s h e w a s i n s tr u c ti n g th e p o lic e o ffic e r s i n K Z N t o s to p th is in v e s t i g a t io n . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. H o w m u c h w a s p a id t o Mr P a n d a y a n d h i s r e l a te d e n ti t ie s ? MR WHITE: C h a ir i t w a s a p p r o x i m a t e ly R 4 7 m i ll io n a n d th a t C h a ir w a s in a p e r io d fr o m N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 to A u g u s t o f 2 0 1 0 , s o m e te n m o n th s . 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d f r o m y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s w e r e y o u a b le t o a s s e s s w h a t p r o f it m a r g i n s w e r e b e i n g c h a r g e d b y M r P a n d a y ’s e n t i ti e s ? MR WHITE: C h a ir o n a v e r a g e t h e y w e r e b i ll in g a p p r o x i m a t e l y th r e e ti m e s th e p r ic e t h e y w e r e p r o c u r i n g t h i n g s f o r, w h e r e i t w a s p h y s ic a l g o o d s a n d w h e n I t a lk a b o u t g o o d s it c o u l d b e a n y t h i n g f r o m a g e n e r a to r t o a g a r m e n t to s u n s c r e e n , t o a n o t ic e b o a r d , t o a Ve n t e r tr a i le r, t h e y l it e r a l ly s u p p li e d a n y t h in g t h e p o l ic e r e q u ir e d a t t h e ti m e . T h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n i n s o m e i n s t a n c e s t h e y b i ll e d fo r a c c o m m o d a t i o n t h a t w a s n e v e r p r o v i d e d a n d i n o t h e r in s t a n c e s t h e y b i ll e d ju s t m o r e 20 t h a n tw ic e w h a t i t w a s c o s t i n g t h e m t h e y b i ll e d t h e p o l ic e f o r. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M r W h i t e I w o u l d l ik e t o r e f e r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o n p a g e 6 o f y o u r r e p o r t , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir w h o w e r e t h e s u s p e c ts in t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e r e w e r e 1 2 s u s p e c ts , s o m e o f w h i c h w e r e n a tu r a l p e r s o n s , t h e f ir s t o n e b e i n g Mr P a n d a y, h e e ff e c tiv e ly w a s t h e m a i n Page 53 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p e r s o n i n v o l v e d , h e w a s t h e p e r s o n t h a t in m o s t in s ta n c e s w e c o u l d tr a c e p a y m e n t s t o th e v a r i o u s p o li c e o ff ic ia ls in v o lv e d i n p r o c u r e m e n t d ir e c t ly to h i s i n s tr u c ti o n s . T h e p o l ic e o ffi c i a l s i n v o l v e d , C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e , h e w a s t h e h e a d o f a c q u i s i ti o n s f o r t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o l ic e i n K Z N , s o h e a ls o a p p r o v e d p a y m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o – p a y m e n t t o Mr P a n d a y ’s e n ti ti e s , a s w e ll a s d e a li n g w i th t h e s o u r c i n g o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n p a r t ic u l a r l y fo r t h e W o r l d C u p , a n d c h a ir w h e n I r e fe r t o a c c o m m o d a ti o n fo r t h e W o r ld C u p t h is is a c c o m m o d a t i o n f o r t h e p o lic e m e m b e r s t h a t a r e c o m in g fr o m 10 o u t s i d e o f th e D u r b a n a r e a t h a t n e e d e d t o b e o n d u ty d u r i n g t h e W o r l d Cup. C a p t a i n A s h w i n N a r a i n p e r s a d h e w a s a ls o i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a n d h e c e r ti f ie d t h a t g o o d s h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d , a n d h e w a s a ls o in s tr u m e n t a l in s u m m a r is in g the three quotes to g iv e the i m p r e s s io n t h a t a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s i n d e p e n d e n t ly q u o t e s f r o m t h e m a r k e t h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d , b u t i n a l l i n s t a n c e s w h e r e Mr P a n d a y ’s e n t i ti e s g o t p a i d t h e o th e r t w o e n ti ti e s r e l a t e d to Mr P a n d a y i n o n e w a y o r a n o th e r. Then 20 Lt General Ngubeni, who was the Provincial C o m m i s s i o n e r a t t h e ti m e w h o b a s e d o n a ffi d a v i ts t h a t w e r e g iv e n t o m e t o c o n s i d e r r e l a t i n g t o t h e d a t e a n d t h e t i m e o f t h e b i r t h d a y p a r ty that was paid for on her behalf she was in the month leading up to that b ir t h d a y p a r t y g iv i n g i n s tr u c ti o n s t o B r ig a d i e r K e m p a n d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n to s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . T h e n fr o m a N a ti o n a l p e r s p e c t iv e t h e r e w a s M a j o r G e n e r a l R S Page 54 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 P il l a y, he was i n v o lv e d in signing o ff documents r e la t in g to a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r th e W o r ld C u p a n d h e s i g n e d o ff m o ti v a t i o n s ju s t b e f o r e t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n w a s r e q u ir e d t o b e b o o k e d , s a y in g th a t i t w a s u r g e n t w h e n i f o n e lo o k s b a c k a t th e v a r i o u s m e e ti n g s t h a t h a d t a k e n p l a c e fo r s o m e e i g h t o r t e n m o n th s b e f o r e t h e y k n e w a t l e a s t t h a t lo n g b e f o r e a c c o m m o d a t io n w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d a n d p o l ic e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s d o n o t a l lo w a l a c k o f p l a n n in g a s a b a s is t o j u s t if y a n urgent or emergency procurement that then doesn’t f o ll o w th e procurement process. 10 T h e s ix t h p e r s o n is M s Pr a v is h a P a n d a y, th a t i s Mr To s h a n P a n d a y ’s w i f e , th e r e is t h e n M s R i w e n d a P a n d a y w h ic h is M r P a n d a y ’s m o t h e r, a n d t h e n t h e r e a r e t h e e n ti t ie s t h a t a r e in v o lv e d , t h e r e ’s G o l d c o a s t Tr a d i n g C C o f w h ic h Mr P a n d a y is t h e s o l e m e m b e r, th a t w a s t h e e n ti ty t h a t p r o v i d e d a c c o m m o d a t i o n b o th f o r t h e W o r ld C u p a s w e l l a s f o r o t h e r d e p l o y m e n ts o f p o li c e o ffi c e r s i n K Z N . T h e n U n i t e M z a n s i Tr a d in g a n d P r o j e c t C C , t h is is a n e n t it y t h a t M r P a n d a y i s t h e s o l e m e m b e r o f , t h i s e n t it y w a s u s e d t o q u o t e a g a i n s t Ve l a t o n e 2 1 C C w h ic h w a s o w n e d b y h is w i f e a n d B r a v o S t a t 2 5 C C w h ic h w a s o w n e d b y M r P a n d a y ’s m o t h e r. 20 A n d th e n C a s s i e f Tr a d in g C C w a s o w n e d b y S a b e s h Is m a il K a m a r w h i c h is M r P a n d a y ’s b r o t h e r - i n - la w, h e is m a r r i e d t o M r P a n d a y ’s s i s t e r. CHAIRPERSON: T h e o n e U n it e M z a n s i th a t ’s h o w i t ’s r e g is te r e d , b e c a u s e i t l o o k s li k e th e y c o n f u s e d w h e r e t h e S s h o u ld b e a n d w h e r e t h e Z s h o u l d b e , t h e y m u s t h a v e in t e n d e d M z a n z i . Page 55 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 MR WHITE: I a g r e e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MR WHITE: J a , b u t t h a t ’s h o w i t’s r e g is t e r e d ? T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. N o w M r W h i t e in y o u r r e p o r t y o u d e a l e x t e n s i v e ly w i th w h e n a n d h o w Mr P a n d a y ’s w i fe , m o t h e r a n d b r o t h e r - i n - l a w c a m e to o w n t h e c o m p a n i e s y o u r e f e r r e d , Ve l a t o n e , B r a v o S t a t a n d C a s s i e f Tr a d e r s a n d y o u a ls o d e a l w i t h h o w t h e s e c o m p a n i e s w e r e r e fl e c t e d o n th e s u p p ly d a t a b a s e . T h is is d e a l t 10 w i t h b y y o u o n p a g e s – fr o m p a g e s 11 9 to 1 3 0 . CHAIRPERSON: I s e e t h a t th e l is t o f s u s p e c ts a p p e a r s a t p a g e 6 o f M r W h i te ’s a ffi d a v it , p a r a g r a p h 1 6 . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s it d o e s . I t w ill h e l p i f a s w e g o a l o n g w e k n o w w h e r e a b o u t i n t h e a ffi d a v i t w e a r e . O f c o u r s e y o u w i ll r e fe r t o t h e o t h e r e x h i b i t s b u t it h e l p s i f o n e k n o w s e x a c t ly w h e r e w e a r e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir I a c tu a l l y d i d s a y i t w a s p a g e 6 a n d p a r a g r a p h 1 6 b u t I k n o w i t’s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: 20 Mmm? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I th in k I d id s a y t h a t t h a t b u t I w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t I t e ll y o u w h e r e w e a r e in t h e a ffi d a v i t s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t h a t ’s fi n e , j u s t m e n ti o n i n g p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r s o f t h e s ta t e m e n t a s w e g o a l o n g w i ll h e l p m e to s e e w h e r e w e are. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , C h a ir I w o n ’t f o ll o w i n t h e c o u r s e o f Page 56 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 g iv i n g th is e v i d e n c e t h e a ffi d a v i t e x a c t ly b u t I w i ll c e r t a i n l y s h o w y o u where we are. CHAIRPERSON: Th a t ’s fi n e j a , s o y o u r e fe r r e d t o E x h i b i t R R 4 A , is t h a t r ig h t , w h a t p a g e n u m b e r ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: W e w e r e r e fe r r i n g t o , i t ’s d e a l t w i t h e s s e n ti a l ly fr o m p a g e s 11 9 to 1 3 0 b u t I a m n o w g o i n g t o l o o k a t p a g e 134. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. C o n t i n u e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 M r W h i te w i t h o u t m e r e a d i n g w h a t is c o n ta in e d i n y o u r r e p o r t w i th r e g a r d to t h is c o u l d y o u p e r h a p s w it h r e g a r d t o t h e e n l a r g e d t i m e li n e w h ic h is A n n e x u r e T S W 2 5 r e f e r r e d to i n E x h i b i t R R D r i g h t a t t h e e n d e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d w i th r e g a r d t o t h e o w n e r s h i p o f th a t c o m p a n y ? CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e b e f o r e h e d o e s s o , le t ’s e s ta b l is h h o w w e w e n t a b o u t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , d i d h e i n t e r v i e w w i t n e s s e s , w a s it j u s t d o c u m e n t b a s e d , M r W h i t e d o y o u w a n t t o j u s t e x p la in t h a t t o m e , h o w d i d y o u g o a b o u t w i t h y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n ? MR WHITE: C h a ir o u r a p p o i n t m e n t w a s t o a s s i s t t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t e a m t h a t w a s a ll o c a t e d th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n b y t h e p o li c e . T h e y p r o v i d e d 20 u s w it h a ll t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . T h e y t h e n t h e i n d iv id u a l i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffic e r s w e n t a n d o b t a i n e d s t a te m e n ts fr o m t h e v a r i o u s p e o p l e w h e r e t h e y n e e d e d a s u p p o r ti n g s t a te m e n t a r o u n d w h e t h e r s e r v i c e w a s p r o v i d e d , w h e t h e r t h e s u p p l i e r h a d 2 0 r o o m s i f th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n t h a t w a s p a id f o r w a s 2 0 r o o m s a n d i n s o m e in s t a n c e s th e s u p p li e r o n l y h a d t e n r o o m s , s o i f t h e p e o p le w e r e n ’ t s h a r i n g th e a c c o m m o d a t io n c o u l d n ’ t Page 57 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 have been provided. S o t h e p o l ic e w e n t a n d o b t a in e d t h o s e s t a te m e n ts a n d t h e n provided us, when I say us, I mean PWC, with copies of those s t a te m e n ts a n d w e w o u l d h a v e i n p u t i n to t h e q u e s t io n s th a t w o u l d b e a s k e d o f t h o s e w i t n e s s e s a n d in f o r m a t io n t h a t w e r e q u ir e d to e n a b l e m e t o m a k e t h e c o n c l u s i o n s I m a d e in m y r e p o r t . S o w e , P W C , a n d t h e s ta ff a s s i s ti n g m e fr o m P W C , d i d n ’ t s p e c i f ic a l ly i n te r v i e w the witnesses that were – that p r o v id e d s t a te m e n ts t h a t a r e i n t h e c r i m in a l d o c k e t . C h a ir j u s t i n th a t r e g a r d t h e r e a r e li t e r a ll y h u n d r e d s o f 10 s t a te m e n ts b e c a u s e e v e r y t i m e t h e r e w a s a p e r s o n i d e n ti f ie d th a t d i d something th e in v e s ti g a t in g p o l ic e o ffi c e r s went and o b ta i n e d s t a te m e n ts fr o m t h o s e p e o p le . CHAIRPERSON: I s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t a ft e r y o u h a d l o o k a t s o m e s t a te m e n ts , o r a t a n y s t a te m e n ts if y o u w a n t e d c l a r i f ic a ti o n y o u w o u l d in d i c a t e t o th e r e l e v a n t p o li c e o ff ic i a l t o s a y w e w a n t t h i s i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m th is w i t n e s s , o r w o u l d y o u w r it e d ir e c tl y t o t h e w i t n e s s a n d o b t a i n in f o r m a ti o n o f p i c k th e p h o n e a n d a s k t h e m o r h o w w o u l d y o u g o a b o u t that? 20 M R W H I T E : C h a ir w e w o r k e d v e r y c l o s e l y w i t h th e – th e p o l ic e o ff ic e r s a n d t h a t w o u l d b e d o n e d u r i n g – i n d i s c u s s i o n s a n d th e n C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g w h o h e a d e d u p t h e – h e w a s th e m a in i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ffic e r h e w o u l d th e n i n s tr u c t th e o th e r p o l ic e m e n w o r k in g f o r h i m t o g o a n d t a k e fu r t h e r s t a te m e n ts . S o i n s o m e in s t a n c e s t h e r e w o u l d b e a s t a te m e n t i n t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e n t h e r e w o u l d b e a n a d d e n d u m t o th a t Page 58 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 s t a te m e n t w h i c h h a d f u r t h e r i n fo r m a ti o n a r o u n d s p e c if ic is s u e s th a t I r e q u ir e d c l a r i ty o n b e fo r e I c o u l d f i n a li s e m y r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. So your team provided – was providing a s s is t a n c e t o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n c o n d u c te d b y th e p o li c e ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Mr W h i t e i f w e c a n g o t o p a g e 1 3 4 o f y o u r r e p o r t? Yo u t h e r e s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 . 0 5 1 w i th r e g a r d t o Vo l a t o n e 2 1 C – n o w i th r e g a r d t o Br a v o s a t a n d w h o y o u h a v e s a i d w a s 10 M r P a n d a y ’s m o t h e r s ’ c o m p a n y. Yo u s a y t h is : “ T h e c e r ti fi c a t e i s s u e d b y th e R e g is tr a r o f C o m p a n ie s a n d C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n s d a te d t h e 2 8 J u n e 2 0 1 0 r e fl e c ts t h a t a s a t t h e 2 8 J u n e 2 0 1 0 t h e o n ly m e m b e r f o r B r a v o s a t 2 5 C C w a s Av e n d r a P a n d a y. However t h e E x p e r i a n R e p o r t e x tr a c t e d o n t h is e n t it y r e v e a ls t h a t s h e r e s i g n e d a s a m e m b e r th e r e o f t h e s a m e d a t e s h e b e c a m e a m e m b e r n a m e ly 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a t w h ic h d a t e P a n d a y b e c a m e t h e s o l e m e m b e r o f t h is e n t i ty. 20 I h a v e a ls o e s t a b li s h e d fr o m d o c u m e n ts provided by CIPC that Arvendra Panday became a m e m b e r o f B r a v o s a t2 5 C C o n th e 2 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d r e s ig n e d o n t h e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a l t h o u g h t h e C I P C w a s o n ly in f o r m e d o f h e r r e s i g n a t i o n o n t h e 1 2 A p r il 2 0 11 . I can therefore conclude from the a b o v e m e n ti o n e d d o c u m e n ts t h a t Av e n d r a P a n d a y Page 59 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 w a s i n i ti a l ly th e o n ly m e m b e r f o r t h is e n ti t y a n d w h o w a s r e c o r d e d a s t h e o n l y m e m b e r th e r e o f a s a t t h e 2 8 J u n e 2 0 1 0 a y e a r a f te r t h e r e g is tr a t i o n o n t h e S A P S S u p p ly D a t a P l a c e . However subsequent to t h e a fo r e m e n ti o n e d d a t e t h e C I P C w a s i n fo r m e d o f h e r r e s i g n a ti o n a s th e o n ly m e m b e r o f B r a v o s a t 2 5 C C w h ic h d a t e is r e c o r d e d a s th e 9 N o v e m b e r although the CIPC was o n ly r e s ig n a ti o n o n t h e 1 2 A p r i l . 10 informed of her The aforementioned d o c u m e n ts c o n c u r w i t h e a c h o t h e r … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l y o u c a n n o t … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Read for so long. Here is the witness. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is h is r e p o r t. H e k n o w s h is r e p o r t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s k h i m q u e s ti o n s t h a t w i ll e l ic i t th e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t 20 y o u w a n t h i m to p l a c e b e f o r e m e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . I w a n t i t w it h r e f e r e n c e t o t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s i f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e r e f e r to A n n e x u r e T S W 2 5 ? I t is … CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e t h a t M r W h i t e M s W e n t z e l d o n o t f o r g e t th e q u e s t io n y o u w a n te d to a s k . Yo u r – y o u r r e p o r t I s e e t h e r e a r e – t h e r e a r e w r i t i n g s o n th e – o n th e m a r g i n o n t h e s i d e F 2 / 2 - 3 w h a t d o th o s e Page 60 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 s ig n if y – w h a t d o t h e y r e p r e s e n t? M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir I s h o u l d h a v e e x p l a i n e d t h a t a t th e b e g i n n i n g . A n d I r e f e r to i t a t th e b o t to m o f e a c h o f t h o s e p a g e s . r e fe r e n c e s in th o s e columns are references to the Th o s e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e i n t h e 2 0 l e v e r a r c h f i le s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : T h a t a r e a tt a c h e d t o th a t r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o a n y w h e r e w h e r e I r e f e r to i n f o r m a ti o n i n th e r e p o r t – a 10 r e a d e r o f t h e r e p o r t c a n g o t o t h e s o u r c e d o c u m e n t w h e r e I g o t th a t in f o r m a ti o n f r o m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. A n d w o u ld t h e y a ls o b e h e l p f u l n o w in r e g a r d t o t h e o th e r e x h i b i ts th a t h a v e b e e n a d m i t te d o r th e y w e r e – w o u ld h a v e b e e n h e lp f u l a t t h e t i m e f o r y o u r o w n i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? If I w a n t t o s e e th e s o u r c e f o r a n y th in g y o u w r it e t h e r e t h a t s o u r c e w o u l d – t h o s e s o u r c e s w o u l d b e h e r e o r s o m e w o u ld b e h e r e o th e r s w i ll n o t b e here? M R W H I T E: C h a ir n o n e o f th o s e d o c u m e n ts a r e a t t a c h e d t o t h is a ffi d a v i t t h a t I h a v e p r e p a r e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: B u t I h a v e p r o v i d e d t h e m in a n e l e c tr o n ic f o r m t o t h e c o m m i s s io n . S o t h e y a r e a l l a v a il a b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R W H I T E : I t is ju s t a ll t h e a n n e x u r e s I r e fe r to i n th e r e p o r ts b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n . Page 61 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : T h e r e is s o m e 5 0 l e v e r a r c h f i le s o f d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . B u t w h a t y o u … M R W H I T E : T h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s it . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t y o u m e a n is th e y c a n b e f o u n d if n e c e s s a r y ? Ja. M R W H I T E : C h a ir th e y – th e c o m m i s s i o n h a s t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s g o t t h e m i n e le c tr o n i c f o r m ? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r W h i t e w i th r e f e r e n c e to A n n e x u r e T S W 2 5 E x h i b i t R R 4 d i t is a t p a g e 1 9 8 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s p e a k i n g a w a y fr o m t h e m ic r o p h o n e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: S o r r y. I t is a t p a g e 1 9 8 6 c o u l d y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n w h a t tr a n s p ir e d w i th r e g a r d to B r a v o s a t? I a m s o r r y t h e – is that suitable if it is the whole document yes. Thank you. M R W H I T E: C h a ir t h a t a n n e x u r e is j u s t – i t w a s i n c l u d e d i n m y r e p o r t t h a t i s b e i n g r e f e r r e d to . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t a n n e x u r e is o n w h a t p a g e i n E x h i b it R R 4 a ? 20 M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is i n R R 4 d . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is i n R R 4 d . O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is 1 9 8 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y c o n ti n u e . M R W H I T E: C h a ir t h a t i s ju s t a r e p r e s e n t a t i o n o n a ti m e li n e s h o w i n g s o m e a n o m a li e s t h a t r e la t e t o t h e r e g i s t r a t io n o f t h e c o m p a n i e s r e l a ti n g Page 62 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t o M r P a n d a y ’s w if e a n d h is m o t h e r. S o t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Just speak to them. MR WHITE: T h e d o c u m e n t – th e d o c u m e n t t h a t i s c u r r e n tl y o n th e s c r e e n w h i c h is a t p a g e 1 9 8 6 i n R R 4 d ju s t s e ts o u t t h e d a t e t h e e n t i ty w a s i n i t ia ll y r e g is t e r e d b e i n g th e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . Th e f a c t t h a t – a n d I w il l d e a l w it h t h e c h a n g e a t a l a t e r d a t e . A n d th e fa c t t h a t a t th a t d a t e M r P a n d a y ’s w i f e w a s t h e m e m b e r a b a n k a c c o u n t i n t h e m id d le o f t h a t p a g e w a s o p e n e d o n t h e 1 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . M r P a n d a y ’s w i f e w a s t h e s o l e s i g n a t o r y. A n d o n t h e 3 0 N o v e m b e r i t w a s r e g i s te r e d o n t h e P o li c e 10 S u p p ly D a t a B a s e . W h e n it w a s r e g is t e r e d o n th e P o lic e S u p p ly D a t a B a s e i t w a s r e g i s t e r e d a s a n e n t i ty o w n e d b y P r i v i s h a P a n d a y. What then happened was almost… CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. It was – when it was registered in the P o lic e D a t a B a s e i t w a s r e g is te r e d a s a n e n ti ty o w n e d b y w h o ? M R W H I T E : P r a v i s h a P a n d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Mr P a n d a y ’s w i fe ? M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E : C h a ir j u s t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: So. M R W H I T E: W h a t I a m tr y i n g t o s h o w t h e r e is t h a t fr o m th e d a te th is e n t i ty w a s f ir s t r e g is t e r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : O n th e 9 N o v e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 63 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : B e f o r e t h e e n d o f th a t m o n t h b e in g th e 3 0 N o v e m b e r t h i s e n t i ty h a d o p e n e d a b a n k a c c o u n t a n d i t r e g i s te r e d o n t h e P o lic e S u p p ly D a t a B a s e . Fr o m w h a t w a s . . . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u s a y – d i d y o u s a y t h a t b e fo r e i t w a s r e g is t e r e d a b a n k a c c o u n t h a d b e e n o p e n e d ? M R W H I T E: N o , n o C h a ir s h o r tl y a f te r i t w a s r e g i s te r e d . S o i f w e l o o k a t p a g e 1 9 8 6 w e s t a r t a t t h e l e f t i n t h a t ti m e li n e i t w a s r e g is t e r e d o n – with… C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y h a n g o n o n e s e c o n d . Yo u s a y p a g e 1 ? 10 MR WHITE: 1986. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e p a g e – w e ll – 1 9 8 6 o k a y. M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o w I s e e . O k a y a l r ig h t . M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir i n t h e b u n d l e s t h e r e is a n A 4 d o c u m e n t w i t h a c o p y i n A 3 a s w e l l s o t h a t i t is e a s i e r t o r e a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . O k a y c o n ti n u e . M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir i f w e s t a r t o n th e le f t . T h e e n ti ty w a s fi r s t r e g is t e r e d o n t h e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R W H I T E: I t s k i p p e d th e o t h e r d a te a n d w e m o v e t o t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e . T h e y o p e n e d a b a n k a c c o u n t o n t h e 1 8 N o v e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: A n d t h e y w e r e t h e n r e g is t e r e d o n th e P o l ic e S u p p ly D a t a B a s e o n t h e 3 0 N o v e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 64 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : S o t h i s is a b r a n d n e w e n ti ty. I t h a s j u s t b e e n o p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: I t – f r o m w h a t m y i n v e s t ig a ti o n s h o w e d t h e y d i d n o w o r k f o r a n y b o d y e ls e o n l y f o r t h e p o l ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R W H I T E : H o w e v e r s o m e tw o y e a r s l a t e r o n th e 1 7 A u g u s t 2 0 0 9 o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e t h e r e w a s a n in s tr u c ti o n s e n t t o C I P C th e e n ti ty t h a t c o n tr o ls t h e r e g is tr a ti o n o f C l o s e c o r p o r a t i o n s r e c o r d in g th a t Mr P a n d a y ’s w i f e h a d r e s i g n e d o n t h e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 b e in g t h e v e r y d a y 10 s h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d r e p l a c in g h i m a s t h e s o l e m e m b e r. C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y M r W h i t e . I h a v e r e a d y o u r s t a te m e n t s o I h a v e a c e r t a in u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h ic h I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I c h e c k w h e t h e r i t is c o r r e c t. I t h o u g h t b a s e d o n m y r e a d in g o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d w h a t y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n . I t t h o u g h t t h e r e i s a p o in t t o b e e m p h a s is e d t h a t y o u w a n t to e m p h a s i s e w i th r e g a r d t o w h o w a s r e g is t e r e d a s t h e m e m b e r o f t h e C C w h e n . Is i t c o n v e n i e n t t o d e a l w i t h t h a t ? T h a t p o i n t f ir s t o r is i t m o r e c o n v e n ie n t t o d e a l w i t h o th e r th in g s a n d c o m e b a c k to i t l a t e r ? M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir I c a n d e a l w i t h i t n o w. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: S o t h e p o i n t is t h a t w h e n t h is e n ti ty r e g is te r e d o n th e P o lic e S u p p ly D a t a B a s e to tr y a n d g iv e t h e i m p r e s s i o n is m y v i e w t h a t it w a s i n d e p e n d e n t o f Mr To s h a n P a n d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : T h e s o l e m e m b e r w a s r e g is te r e d a s h i s w if e . Page 65 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: H o w e v e r a t a l a te r p o i n t o n c e t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t a r t e d t h e y w e n t a n d b a c k d a te d h e r in v o lv e m e n t, to r e m o v e h e r a s a m e m b e r o f t h a t C lo s e C o r p o r a ti o n . B u t w h a t th e y c o u l d n o t c h a n g e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR WHITE: Wa s th e d a t e t h e b a n k a c c o u n t w a s o p e n e d a n d w h o th e s o l e s i g n a t o r y w a s a n d t h e y c o u l d n o t c h a n g e t h e r e c o r d o n th e P o lic e S u p p ly D a t a B a s e w h e r e i t w a s r e c o r d e d a s b e i n g h i s w i fe ’s e n t i ty. CHAIRPERSON: 10 annexure. Ye s o k a y le t u s d e a l w it h i t th is w a y a s I r e a d t h e O n t h e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 t h a t is w h e n t h is e n t i ty g e ts r e g is t e r e d , is th a t r i g h t? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t t h a t s ta g e t h e f o u n d i n g s ta t e m e n t o f t h e C l o s e c o r p o r a t io n a n d t h e C l o s e c o r p o r a t io n w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t is Va l o to n e , is t h a t r i g h t ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Va l o to n e C C . Ms P r iv is h a P a n d a y p r e v i o u s l y S u m m e r g e e t h is t h e s o le m e m b e r o f t h e C C . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n y o u h a v e in t h e n e x t c o lu m n s o m e t h i n g r e l a ti n g to t h e s a m e d a t e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d y o u s a y, “ o n th e s a m e d a y M s Pr iv is h a P a n d a y r e s ig n s a s s o l e m e m b e r o f Va l o to n e 2 1 C C ” , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t t h e … CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h a t r e s i g n a t io n is it e ff e c t e d i n t h e in t e l le c tu a l Page 66 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p r o p e r ty o ffi c e o r n o t ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is o n ly r e g is t e r e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t s ta g e . M R W H I T E : N o t a t th a t s t a g e . CHAIRPERSON: Not at that stage. M R W H I T E : O n ly r e f l e c te d i n t h a t o ffic e o n t h e 1 7 A u g u s t 2 0 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h e d a t e w h ic h is r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f th a t p a g e . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – b u t is i t – is it b a c k d a t e d ? 10 M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e s i g n a t i o n b a c k d a t e d ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o th is o r g a n is a ti o n Va l o to n e 2 1 C C g e ts r e g is t e r e d o n th e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d it s o w n e r o r s o le m e m b e r is r e fl e c t e d a s M s P r i v i s h a P a n d a y, Mr P a n d a y ’s w i f e . A n d t h e n o n th e 1 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a b a n k a c c o u n t is o p e n e d a t A B S A a n d th e s o ld s ig n a to r y t o t h e a c c o u n t is P r iv is h a P a n d a y, M r P a n d a y ’s w i fe i n r e g a r d t o t h is e n t i ty. A n d o n th e 3 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 th is e n t it y is r e g is te r e d i n t h e S A P S S u p p l ie r D a t a B a s e . S o a s a t t h e ti m e w h e n i t is r e g is t e r e d 20 in t h e d a t a b a s e o f t h e S A P S o n t h e 3 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a s fa r a s th e r e c o r d s a t t h e I n t e l le c t u a l P r o p e r t y o ff ic e a r e c o n c e r n e d M s P r iv is h a P a n d a y is t h e s o le m e m b e r o f t h e C C . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Is that right? A n d – a n d w h e n th a t r e g i s t r a t io n a t S A P S i s m a d e in t h e d a t a b a s e o f t h e S A P S i n r e g a r d t o t h is e n ti ty t h e Page 67 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 – s h e is r e f l e c te d a s th e s o l e m e m b e r o f t h e C C ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u s a y o n t h e 1 7 A u g u s t 2 0 11 t h a t is n o w c lo s e t o t w o y e a r s la t e r fr o m w h e n i t w a s r e g is t e r e d . A t t h a t ti m e a le t t e r i s th e n s u b m i t t e d t o t h e I n t e l le c t u a l Pr o p e r t y o ff ic e to s a y t h a t s h e h a d r e s ig n e d . N o t t o s a y s h e w a s r e s i g n i n g a s a t t h a t t i m e . Is t h a t r ig h t ? MR WHITE: C o r r e c t C h a ir t h a t s h e h a d r e s ig n e d o n th e 9 N o v e m b e r 2009. 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d th a t is w h a t is s u b m i t t e d to th e I n t e l le c t u a l P r o p e r ty o ffic e a l e tt e r t h a t is d a t e d 9 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9 o r w h a t i s – o h is it t h e – th e t e x t o f t h e le t t e r o r e m a il o f r e s ig n a ti o n t h a t t e l ls t h a t o ffi c e t h a t th is r e s ig n a ti o n is w i t h e ff e c t fr o m 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 ? M R W H I T E: C h a i r I c a n n o t r e c a ll th e e x a c t fo r m o f i t b u t i t w a s t h a t i t w a s e ff e c t iv e t h e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e – th a t is t h e – h o w e v e r i t w a s p u t t h a t w a s t h e e ffe c t? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 T h e p e r s o n w h o p u t it M s P a n d a y i n te n d e d t h e I n t e ll e c t u a l P r o p e r ty o ffi c e t o t a k e h e r r e s ig n a ti o n t o h a v e b e e n w i t h e ffe c t fr o m t h e d a y o n w h i c h t h e e n t i ty w a s r e g is t e r e d w i t h th e m ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o i f o n e h a s a n e n q u i r y o n t h is e n t i ty w i t h I n t e ll e c t u a l Pr o p e r ti e s o ffi c e n o w t h e y w i l l s h o w t h a t s h e r e s ig n e d o n the 9 November 2009. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O h o f c o u r s e – o f c o u r s e i n a l l p r o b a b il it y Page 68 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 le g a l ly t h e r e s ig n a ti o n s h o u l d o n ly b e f r o m – w i t h e ff e c t fr o m t h e d a t e w h e n th e I n te ll e c t u a l O ff ic e o ff ic e r m a y b e g o t t h e – t h e l e t te r, I a m n o t sure. B u t i n a n y e v e n t s h e i n te n d e d t h a t t h e r e s i g n a t i o n s h o u l d b e t a k e n t o h a v e b e e n w i th e ff e c t fr o m t h e d a y o n w h ic h t h e – t h e e n ti t y w a s r e g is t e r e d ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. I j u s t w a n t e d to u n d e r s t a n d th a t – t h a t p o in t b e c a u s e I th o u g h t i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u m a k e t h a t p o in t q u i te c l e a r l y. B u t t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r p o i n t s y o u w a n t t o m a k e in r e g a r d 10 to this. MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e o n ly – j u s t a t t h e s a m e ti m e w h e n o n e c o n s i d e r e d B r a v o s a t w h ic h is h i s m o th e r ’s c o m p a n y. The same thing h a p p e n e d t h e d a t e s a r e s li g h tly d i ff e r e n t a s r e l a te d t o th e r e s i g n a t io n date. B u t t h e o p e n i n g o f t h e b a n k a c c o u n t , t h e r e g i s tr a t io n o n t h e P o lic e S u p p ly D a t a B a s e i s e x a c t ly t h e s a m e . A n d a l s o t h e r e s i g n a ti o n is b a c k d a te d b y c l o s e to t w o y e a r s . S o i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e s e e n t i ti e s w e r e r e g is te r e d w i t h p e o p l e r e la t e d to M r To s h a n P a n d a y b u t n o t h i m s e l f p e r s o n a l ly, a p p li e d t o b e o n th e P o lic e S u p p l ie r s D a t a B a s e . T h o s e e n ti t ie s w e r e t h e n u s e d t o p r o v i d e q u o t e s c o m p e ti t iv e ly a g a i n s t 20 e a c h o t h e r, c o m p e ti t iv e ly u s e d q u i te l o o s e ly. B u t a f te r t h e y h a d s t o p p e d d o i n g w o r k fo r t h e p o li c e a n d th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d s t a r t e d M r P a n d a y t h e n w e n t – o r t h e s e t w o l a d i e s w e n t a n d b a c k d a t e d t h e ir r e s ig n a ti o n t o s a y th e y w e r e n e v e r th e m e m b e r s o f t h e s e e n ti t ie s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d y e t t h r o u g h o u t th e p e r i o d a s fa r a s th e I n t e ll e c t u a l P r o p e r ty o ffi c e i s c o n c e r n e d a n d th e r e fo r e a s f a r a s t h e Page 69 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p u b lic is c o n c e r n e d a n d f a r a s t h e S A P S w e r e c o n c e r n e d i t w a s in t h e c a s e o f Va lo t o n e 2 1 C C M s P r i v is h a P a n d a y w h o w a s r e c o g n i s e d a s th e s o l e m e m b e r o f t h a t? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And Mr White were anyone in procurement t o l d th a t Va lo t o n e t h a t Ms P r iv i s h a P a n d a y w a s n o l o n g e r a m e m b e r o f Va lo t o n e b e t w e e n t h e 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d t h e 1 7 A u g u s t 2 0 11 ? M R W H I T E : N o t t o – n o t b a s e d o n t h e r e c o r d s I h a v e s e e n C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u a s k t h e p o li c e t o e n q u ir e fr o m M s P r iv is h a P a n d a y w h y t h is w a s d o n e ? MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e y w e r e t h e s u s p e c t s s o a s f a r I a m a w a r e th e y w e r e n o t i n te r v i e w e d a n d w a r n i n g s t a te m e n ts h a d n o t b e e n ta k e n . U p t o t h e d a te w h e n th e r e w a s a d e c i s i o n n o t t o p r o s e c u t e t h e a c c u s e d . CHAIRPERSON: S o w e – s o a t t h i s s ta g e w e – w e d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y s a y w h y t h e y – w h a t t h e y h a v e t o s a y a b o u t t h is v e r y s tr a n g e w a y o f d o i n g t h in g s . M R W H I T E : W e d o n o t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s o k a y. Ms W e n tz e l h a s t h e – have the in v e s t i g a t o r s c h e c k e d w i th t h e m w h a t – h o w d o th e y e x p l a in t h is ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o C h a ir y o u w i ll s e e th a t th is s t a t e m e n t fr o m M r W h i te w a s o b ta i n e d i n th e e n d o f th e – w e ll t h e m i d d l e o f D e c e m b e r. T h e in v e s ti g a t o r s a ll th e n w e n t o n l e a v e a n d a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e I d o n o t k n o w i f th e y h a v e b e e n a p p r o a c h e d a s y e t t o d e te r m in e w h a t t h e ir v e r s i o n is a s to w h y t h is o c c u r r e d . Page 70 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C o u ld y o u p le a s e e x p la in w h a t tr a n s p ir e d w it h r e g a r d t o Br a v o s a t w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o A n n e x u r e T S W 2 6 E x h ib i t R R 4 d ? I t is o n p a g e 9 9 8 . M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir i t is 1 9 8 8 . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 1988. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s 1 9 8 8 . MR WHITE: C h a ir th a t i s j u s t t h e ti m e li n e t h a t is v e r y s i m il a r t o t h e o n e I h a v e ju s t r e fe r r e d t o f o r – f o r Va l o t o n e t h e o n ly d i ffe r e n c e is t h e 10 d a t e th e e n ti t y w a s r e g is t e r e d in t h is in s t a n c e i t is n o w t h e 2 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d t h e d a t e t h e r e w a s a n a m e n d m e n t to t h e f o u n d i n g s t a te m e n t a n d th e o t h e r d i ff e r e n c e o b v i o u s ly is th is o n e r e la t e s to M r P a n d a y ’s m o t h e r w h e r e a s th e p r e v i o u s o n e r e l a te d t o h i s w i f e . O t h e r w is e w h a t t h e y d id w i t h h is w i f e ’s e n t i ty th e y d i d e ff e c ti v e ly t h e s a m e t h i n g w i th e n t i ty th a t h is m o t h e r w a s a m e m b e r o f . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a w i n r e g a r d t o t h e p r e v i o u s C C t h a t w e ju s t d e a l t w i t h th a t fr o m t h e b e g i n n in g y o u r d o c u m e n ts r e fl e c t o r r e fe r t o a n a m e n d e d f o u n d in g s t a te m e n t e v e n a t th e t i m e o f r e g is tr a t i o n . That g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n a fo u n d i n g s ta t e m e n t w h ic h 20 w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y a m e n d e d b u t t h a t m i g h t – is t h a t t h e p o s i t io n ? M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. F r o m w h a t I c o u l d d e t e r m i n e t h e s e e n t i ti e s w e r e e ffe c t iv e l y s h e l f c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n s . So businesses that w e r e o n t h e b u s in e s s o f r e g is t e r i n g c o m p a n i e s o r c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n s C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R W H I T E : T h e y r e g is t e r a w h o l e l o t a n d t h e n th e y ju s t … Page 71 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. MR WHITE: S o t h e r e a n e m p l o y e e o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n t h a t o r i g i n a ll y r e g is t e r e d t h i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : W a s th e fir s t m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E : S o t h a t is w h y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M R W H I T E : T h e v e r y fi r s t o n e is a n a m e n d m e n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I t is a n a m e n d m e n t t o r e p l a c e w h o e v e r m a y h a v e b e e n t h e s o l e m e m b e r w h e n t h e C C w a s i n a s h e lf s o t o s p e a k . M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n t o r e fl e c t t h e – th e n e w a n d s o l e m e m b e r w i t h e ff e c t fr o m t h e d a t e o f r e g i s t r a t io n o f t h e a m e n d e d s ta t e m e n t . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. O k a y s o – s o t h a t th e – t h e r e g i s t r a t io n – t h e r e g is tr a ti o n w o u l d n o t b e t h e f ir s t r e g is tr a ti o n o f t h e C C ? MR WHITE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e th e C C w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e g is t e r e d b e f o r e i t 20 w a s p u t i n to a s h e l f? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o to s p e a k . I t is th e r e g is tr a ti o n o f t h e a m e n d m e n t w h ic h th e n r e f le c ts th e n e w s o l e m e m b e r t h a t is w h a t i t m e a n s ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . P le a s e c o n t in u e . Page 72 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. N o w w i t h r e g a r d to K a s e e v Tr a d in g w h ic h y o u s a id w a s o w n e d b y M r P a n d a y ’s b r o t h e r - in - l a w w a s t h e s a m e a m e n d m e n ts m a d e to t h e f o u n d i n g s ta t e m e n t? MR WHITE: N o C h a ir. S o h e c o n ti n u e d t o b e t h e m e m b e r fr o m t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I h a v e s e e n . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d t h e n if y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o A n n e x u r e TSW27 on page 1990. CHAIRPERSON: Are you done with the one for Bravosat? I thought y o u h a d a s k e d h i m t o ta lk t o t h a t o n e . 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: c o m p le t e d . I – I beg your pardon. I th o u g h t h e h a d I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g f u r th e r y o u w o u l d l ik e t o s a y a s t o t h a t one? M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I th in k a s a n d w h e n y o u g e t to t h e o th e r s y o u c a n t h e n d e a l w i t h w h a te v e r is s u e r e l a ti n g t o a m e n d m e n ts i f th e r e is a n i s s u e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t it i s b e t t e r t h a t o n c e w e h a v e g o t t o o n e l e t u s fi n i s h w it h th a t o n e . 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. M R W H I T E : C h a ir r e l a ti n g t o – t o Br a v o s a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : E ff e c t iv e l y t h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i w a s e x a c t ly t h e s a m e . Page 73 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: As in the… M R W H I T E : A s i n Va l o to n e w h ic h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: date. S o t h e y d i d th e s a m e t h i n g . Th e y r e g is te r e d o n th e s a m e T h e y t h e n b a c k d a te d i t s o th a t th e p o r ti o n th a t r e l a te d to t h e r e g is t e r in g w i t h th e p o li c e a n d o p e n i n g t h e b a n k a c c o u n t w a s e x a c tl y the same days. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e l l l e t u s j u s t g e t t h i s s o r t e d o u t . On the 26 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 t h e f o u n d i n g s ta t e m e n t o f t h e C C w a s a m e n d e d a n d i t 10 t h e n r e f l e c te d fr o m th a t d a te – t h a t is fo r Br a v o s a t 2 5 C C i t r e fl e c t e d Av e n d r a P a n d a y a s t h e s o le m e m b e r o f t h e C C . A n d y o u s a id M s o r M r s Av e n d r a P a n d a y w a s M r P a n d a y ’s m o t h e r ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? A n d th a t – a n d t h e n – a n d t h e n o n t h e 1 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a b a n k a c c o u n t w a s o p e n e d a t A B S A i n r e g a r d to B r a v o s a t C C a n d o n t h e 3 0 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 B r a v o s a t C C w a s – Br a v o s a t 2 5 C C w a s r e g is te r e d i n t h e d a t a b a s e o f S u p p li e r D a t e B a s e o f S A P S a n d o n th e 1 2 A p r i l 2 0 11 M s Av e n d r a P a n d a y s u b m it t e d w h e t h e r i t w a s a le t t e r o r a d o c u m e n t t o t h e I n t e ll e c t u a l P r o p e r ty o ff ic e in d i c a t in g t h a t 20 s h e h a d r e s ig n e d fr o m – a s a m e m b e r o f Br a v o s a t 2 5 C C w i t h e ff e c t fr o m 2 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 . I s th a t c o r r e c t ? H a v e I s u m m a r is e d th is p a r t c o r r e c t ly ? M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. J u s t w i t h o n e c o r r e c t i o n j u s t f o r t h e record. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 74 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E: Yo u s a i d i t w a s r e g is t e r e d o n t h e P o lic e S u p p li e r D a t a B a s e o n t h e 3 0 O c t o b e r i t is a c tu a l ly t h e 3 0 N o v e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u . J a 3 0 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . S o i t w a s e x a c tl y t h e s a m e m e t h o d o r – a s w e h a v e h e a r d in r e g a r d to t h e o t h e r CC? M R W H I T E: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d a g a in j u s t to h i g h li g h t t h a t e n ti ty w a s r e g is t e r e d s h o r t ly o r tr a n s f e r r e d i n to M r P a n d a y ’s m o t h e r ’s n a m e s h o r tl y b e fo r e t h e y r e g is t e r e d o n t h e P o l ic e S u p p l i e r D a t a B a s e a n d t h e y t h e n d i d w o r k fo r t h e p o l ic e o r w e r e p a i d f o r s e r v ic e s p r o v id e d t o 10 t h e p o li c e f o r t h e n e x t s i x o r e i g h t m o n th s . S o a g a in n e w ly r e g is t e r e d e n t i ty o n t o th e P o li c e S u p p l ie r D a t a B a s e w i t h i n a m o n t h a n d t h e n t h e y i m m e d i a t e ly p r o c e e d e d t o r e c e i v e s ig n i f ic a n t o r d e r s a n d w e r e u s e d t o q u o t e a g a i n s t e a c h o t h e r t o g iv e t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e r e w a s c o m p e ti t iv e p r ic in g o b t a i n e d b y th e p o li c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d Mr W h i t e w h e n w a s G o ld C o a s t Tr a d i n g a n d t h e o th e r c o r p o r a ti o n w h i c h – o f w h i c h M r P a n d a y w a s a m e m b e r w h e n w e r e th e y r e g i s t e r e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e y r e g is te r e d o n t h e s a m e d a y o th e r w i s e w e – 20 w e s h o u l d g o d o t h e s a m e e x e r c is e o n e b y o n e u n l e s s t h e y a r e r e g is t e r e d o n t h e s a m e d a y ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M r W h i t e t h e – t h e p o in t is w e r e t h e y c o m f – w e r e t h e y c o m p a n i e s o f w h ic h h e h a d b e e n a m e m b e r o f a l o n g t i m e o r w a s i t s i mi l a r i n th a t … ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s n o t – it w a s n o t e x a c tl y th e s a m e t i m e l in e s . I Page 75 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 c a n n o t – I c a n n o t r e c a l l o ff t h e t o p o f m y h e a d b u t i t w a s n o t e x a c tl y the same. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W a s it a l o n g … CHAIRPERSON: H a d th e y b e e n t h e r e f o r q u it e s o m e t i m e o r a s y o u r e c a l l n o t to o l o n g ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir n o – n o t M z a n s i w a s – h a d n o t b e e n th e r e f o r lo n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : I a m j u s t tr y in g t o – if a n y o f t h e m w e r e h a d b e e n t h e r e f o r 10 lo n g e r i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n G o l d C o a s t b e c a u s e t h a t w a s h is m a i n e n ti ty t h a t h e o p e r a t e d . I a m j u s t tr y in g to – CHAIRPERSON: Well. MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e y h a d o n ly s h o r t ly b e f o r e t h is a r o u n d t h e s a m e ti m e r e g i s te r e d o n th e P o lic e S u p p li e r D a t a B a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t a ll t h e o t h e r s o r o n l y s p e c if ic o n e s ? M R W H I T E : W e ll C h a ir th e r e i s – t h e r e a r e t h o s e t w o e n ti t ie s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a m a n y. MR WHITE: T h o s e t w o e n ti t ie s th e r e a n d th e n U n it e M z a n s i w h ic h i s M r P a n d a y ’s e n t it y a n d t h e n G o ld C o a s t Tr a d i n g w h ic h i s h is e n t it y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. O k a y w e l l M s W e n tz e l y o u m u s t ju s t t e l l th e w i t n e s s e x a c t ly w h a t y o u w a n t h i m t o l o o k a t s o m a y b e d u r i n g l u n c h – t h e lu n c h b r e a k . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: H e c a n h a v e a lo o k a n d t h e n y o u c a n a s k h i m t h e d e t a i ls l a t e r. Page 76 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s I – I – y e s I w ill d o t h a t . I asked you e a r l ie r w h e t h e r t h is s a m e m o d u s o p e r a n d i t h a t w a s u s e d w i th r e g a r d t o B r a v o s a t a n d Va lo t o n e w a s e m p l o y e d w i t h r e g a r d to K a s e e v Tr a d e r s w h ic h w a s o w n b y M r P a n d a y ’s b r o th e r - i n - l a w. M R W H I T E : C h a ir h e d i d n o t r e s i g n f r o m t h e c o m p a n y a n d tr a n s fe r r e d in t o M r P a n d a y ’s n a m e l ik e t h e w if e a n d b r o th e r h a d d o n e . S o r r y w i f e and mother had done. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d fr o m t h e t i m e li n e s y o u r e f e r r e d t o Annexures 20 – TSW25 and 26. 10 What inferences can you draw from t h is ? MR WHITE: C h a ir i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e s e t w o e n t i ti e s w e r e r e g is te r e d w i t h t h e s o l e p u r p o s e o f o b ta in i n g w o r k f r o m t h e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v ic e s . T h e y w e r e r e g i s t e r e d , b a n k a c c o u n t o p e n e d , o n t h e P o l ic e S u p p li e r D a t a B a s e a n d w i t h i n a m o n t h r e c e i v i n g s i g n i fi c a n t o r d e r s . C h a ir t h e r e a s o n I s a y th a t is w h e n o n e l o o k s a t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t d o c u m e n t a ti o n w i th i n th e p o li c e r e c o r d s th o s e tw o e n t i ti e s t o g e t h e r w i t h U n i te M z a n s i M r P a n d a y ’s e n ti t y w e r e u s e d t o c o v e r q u o t e e ff e c t iv e l y a g a in s t e a c h o t h e r s o t h a t th e p o lic e w e r e p r o c u r i n g g o o d s a t s ig n if ic a n tly i n fl a te d p r ic e s . 20 S o – a n d f r o m th e r e c o r d s th a t I w a s p r o v i d e d t h a t w e r e s e i z e d fr o m t h e ir b u s i n e s s p r e m is e s b y t h e p o l ic e t h e y d i d n o t a p p e a r to d o w o r k fo r a n y o t h e r e n ti ty. S o i t a p p e a r e d t h a t t h is w a s a s p e c i fi c p l a n n e d e v e n t f o r m t h e s e e n ti ti e s a n d th e n u s e t h e m t o e ff e c t iv e ly m a n ip u la t e th e p o li c e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w i th t h e a s s is t a n c e b e c a u s e i t c a n n e v e r w o r k i f y o u d o n o t h a v e a p e r s o n w i t h i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t a s s is ti n g s o w it h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f Page 77 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d C a p t a i n N a r a in p e r s h a d . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr W h i t e w h i c h o f th e s e e n ti t ie s w a s i n t h e m a in u s e d t o p r o v i d e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d w h ic h e n t i ti e s w e r e i n t h e m a in u s e d t o p r o v i d e g o o d s ? M R W H I T E: C h a i r G o ld C o a s t w a s t h e e n t i ty u s e d to p r o v i d e a c c o m m o d a ti o n t o t h e p o lic e a n d th e o t h e r e n t i ti e s e ff e c t iv e ly q u o te d a g a in s t e a c h o t h e r f o r t h e s u p p ly o f a n y o t h e r s p e c i fi c g o o d s t h a t w e r e p r o v i d e d t o th e p o li c e . S o t h e o th e r e n t i ti e s d i d n o t p r o v i d e a c c o m m o d a ti o n . 10 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w i th r e g a r d t o t h e g o o d s u p p li e d s o t h e C h a ir c a n g e t a n i d e a o f t h e n a tu r e o f th e g o o d s I w o u l d lik e to r e fe r y o u t o A n n e x u r e T S W 1 . I t is in E x h i b i t R R 4 a a t p a g e 2 6 8 . CHAIRPERSON: What page? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 2 6 8 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say RR4a? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And page 268? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 MR WHITE: C h a ir m a y b e ju s t t o – t o p la c e it i n t o c o n te x t b e fo r e I e x p l a i n w h a t i s i n t h a t – th a t t a b l e . Is t h e S o u th A f r i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s a t t h e ti m e a n d w e a r e n o w t a lk i n g 2 0 0 9 / 2 0 1 0 t h e y h a d a S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t U s e r M a n u a l a n d i n t h a t m a n u a l i t s t a te d t h a t a l l p r o c u r e m e n t m u s t b e f a ir, e q u it a b l e , tr a n s p a r e n t , c o m p e ti t iv e a n d c o s t e ff e c ti v e . A s t h e C h a ir w o u l d k n o w t h o s e a r e t h e s a m e Page 78 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 r e q u ir e m e n t s a s s e t o u t i n S e c t io n 2 1 7 o n e o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n . I t a ls o s e t o u t l e v e l s o n w h ic h d i ff e r e n t p o l i c e o ffi c i a l s c o u l d a p p r o v e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d i n t h e – a n d w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d b y w a y o f c o m p e t i tiv e q u o t e s o r t e n d e r s d e p e n d i n g o n t h e le v e l o f a u th o r i ty. I f it w a s a b o v e R 2 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 th e r e w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t t o g o o u t t o o p e n p u b l ic te n d e r. I f i t w a s l e s s t h a n R 2 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 t h r e e q u o t e s c o u l d b e o b t a i n e d . T h e y w o u ld b e c o m p a r e d a n d t h e c h e a p e s t e n ti ty w o u ld b e a p p o i n t e d . In t e r m s o f C o l o n e l M a d h o e ’s l e v e l o f a u t h o r i ty h e c o u l d a p p r o v e – h e w a s t h e f in a l s ig n a to r y o n t h e t h r e e q u o t e p r o c e s s . 10 S o h e c o u ld a p p r o v e t h a t t h e c h e a p e s t o f th e t h r e e c o u l d b e a p p o i n te d t o p r o v id e t h e s e r v ic e s . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t is now fo r items that were less than R 2 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir if o n e l o o k s t h e n a t th e – a t p a g e 2 6 8 o f R R 4 a t h a t ta b le is a s u m m a r y o f p r o c u r e m e n t a u th o r it y s u b m i s s i o n s . C h a ir n o w a p r o c u r e m e n t a u th o r i ty s u b m is s io n is a d o c u m e n t t h a t is p r e p a r e d s u m m a r i s i n g t h e th r e e q u o t e s th a t h a v e b e e n r e c e i v e d . T h e n a m e s a r e 20 in s e r t e d , t h e p r ic e s a n d t h e n b a s e d o n t h e p r ic e s a r a t i n g is d o n e i n t e r m s o f a s c o r i n g a n d t h e n t h e r e is a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t t h e c h e a p e s t o n e b e a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e n th e r e is a n a p p r o v a l . C h a ir t h a t – t h e p r o c e s s o f p r e p a r in g t h e d o c u m e n t a n d v e r i fy i n g i t t o th e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts w a s u n d e r t a k e n b y C a p t a i n N a r a i n p e r s h a d a n d t h e n t h e approval… Page 79 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. C a p ta i n N a r a i n p e r s h a d w a s h e C o l o n e l M a d h o e ’s M R W H I T E : M a d o h o e ’s j u n i o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a d h o e ’s s u p e r v is o r ? M R W H I T E : J u n i o r C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Junior okay my understanding of the ranks in the p o li c e a n d t h e a r m y i s t e r r ib l e . M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir th e C a p t a i n is ju n io r to t h e C o l o n e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. 10 M R W H I T E: S o – s o M r N a r a in o r C a p t a in N a r a in p e r s h a d i s j u n io r t o Colonel Madhoe. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR WHITE: S o h e p r e p a r e d t h e d o c u m e n t , s u m m a r is e d i t a n d t h e n C o l o n e l M a d h o e a p p r o v e d i t o r a u t h o r is e d it . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E : S o h e s i g n e d i t o ff a n d s a i d t h e o r d e r c a n b e p la c e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d th e n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s f o l l o w s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm; 20 M R W H I T E: C a p t a i n N a r a i n p e r s h a d th e n c o n fir m s th a t t h e g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s w e r e r e c e iv e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : A n d th e n t h e y g e t p a id f o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E: N o w C h a ir t h a t t a b le a t p a g e 2 6 8 is a s u m m a r y o f 2 3 Page 80 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p r o c u r e m e n t a u t h o r i ti e s s u b m is s i o n s t h a t w e r e s e iz e d b y t h e p o li c e fr o m t h e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t d e p a r t m e n t o f t h e p o lic e . S o i t w a s s e i z e d b y C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g a n d h i s c o l le a g u e s . And what I h a v e d o n e is I h a v e s u m m a r is e d t h o s e i n t h a t ta b le . C h a ir ju s t o n e c a n s e e i f o n e l o o k s s o t h e r e is 2 3 li n e s . T h e s e c o n d c o l u m n r e l a t e s t o th e d a t e . T h o s e a r e a ll d a t e d th e 6 M a y 2 0 1 0 o r th e 5 M a y 2 0 1 0 . A ll 2 3 o f t h o s e s u b m i s s io n s a n d a p p r o v a ls w e r e d o n e o n t h e – w i t h i n t w o d a y s o f e a c h o th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o w o u l d th a t d a t e – w o u l d t h o s e d a t e s r e fl e c t 10 t h e d a t e o n w h ic h t h e q u o t e s w e r e r e c e i v e d o r t h e d a t e s w h e n s o m e d e c is i o n w a s m a d e ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t w o u l d b e t h e d a te t h e y w e r e a p p r o v e d . CHAIRPERSON: They were approved? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A lr i g h t. A n d in t h is c a s e t h e p e r s o n t o approve was Colonel … MR WHITE: Madhoe. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a d h o e . O k a y a lr i g h t. MR 20 W H I T E: And the preparation had been done by C a p ta i n Narainpershad. C H A I R P E R S O N : In e a c h c a s e ? M R W H I T E : I n e a c h c a s e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: S o C h a i r j u s t to p u t i n c o n te x t t h o s e a r e t h e – a r e t w o o f t h e i n d iv id u a ls t h a t M r P a n d a y w a s p u r c h a s i n g g i f ts a n d b e n e f it s fo r Page 81 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 around the same time. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR WHITE: Ye s . O k a y. C h a i r th e n ju s t to h i g h li g h t t h e ty p e o f i t e ms u n d e r t h e g o o d s r e q u ir e d c o lu m n t h a t w e r e b e i n g p u r c h a s e d . S o l i n e 1 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e l l m a y b e – y e s o k a y g o a h e a d . M R W H I T E : S o ju s t w i th o u t g o i n g th r o u g h a l l th e l i n e s . T h e r e is d i g i t a l c a m e r a s , s l e e p in g b a g s , f l o o d li g h t s , n o ti c e b o a r d s , s u n s c r e e n , r a ti o n p a c k s , g a r m i n s , a n g l e ir o n , v e n te r tr a i l e r s , b e d s . S o C h a ir i t i s a l m o s t a n y th in g y o u c o u ld p o s s ib ly t h i n k o f . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR WHITE: it e m s . H e s u p p l i e d a n d t h is w a s j u s t a s u m m a r y o f s o m e o f th e I m e a n t h e r e w e r e b la n k e ts , t h e r e w e r e a ll s o r ts o f t h i n g s in o th e r o n e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h e n ju s t to – t h e t h r e e e n t i ti e s t h a t p r o v i d e d q u o t e s a c c o r d i n g t o th o s e d o c u m e n t s – i t is i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a g e . I t is K a s e e v Tr a d e r s , U n i t e Mz a n s i a n d Va l o t o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e y h a v e g o t M z a n s i c o r r e c t h e r e b u t th a t is n o t h o w i t is r e g is t e r e d . 20 M R W H I T E : C h a ir I t h in k w h e n I w a s . . . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o r r e c t v e r s i o n is t h e i n c o r r e c t v e r s io n . M R W H I T E: N o C h a i r I th in k – I t h i n k i t w a s w r o n g i n t h e p r e v io u s r e fe r e n c e i n m y a ff id a v i t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh it not how it was registered? M R W H I T E : I th i n k th is – j a C h a ir I th i n k I h a v e a c t u a ll y h a d a m is t a k e . Page 82 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y t h i s is t h e c o r r e c t o n e . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . MR WHITE: S o C h a ir t h o s e a r e th e – a n d i f o n e l o o k s a t t h e p r ic e s t h e y a r e f a i r ly s i m il a r to e a c h o th e r b u t w e t h e n h a v e i n th e c o l u m n t h ir d fr o m t h e r ig h t t h e c o m p a n y a p p r o v e d a n d w e c a n s e e t h e f ir s t f iv e w e r e a w a r d e d t o K a s e e v Tr a d e r s T h e n e x t f iv e to U n i te Mz a n s i a n d t h e n th e b a la n c e t o Va l o t o n e . C h a ir th e r e is t h e n CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s I w a s ju s t c h e c k i n g o n th e s c r e e n y o u h a v e g o t t h e – y o u h a v e g o t t h is o r n o t w h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t . I f y o u c a n p u t it o n t h e s c r e e n I th i n k t h a t m i g h t b e h e l p fu l f o r p e o p l e t o s e e . But b a s ic a lly th e f ir s t o n e a t t h e t o p S A P S r e q u ir e d d i g i t a l c a m e r a s I t h in k t w o o f th e m . quotes. A n d K a s e e v Tr a d e r s , U n i t e Mz a n s i a n d Va l o to n e p u t in K a s e e v p u t i n a q u o t e fo r R 3 7 0 0 0 . 0 0 . R38 500.00. Va l o to n e R 3 9 5 0 0 . 0 0 . Unite Mzansi A n d t h e r e w e r e – th e s e w e r e a ll e n t i ti e s w h o s e s o l e m e m b e r s w e r e M r – t h e y w e r e l i n k e d t o Mr P a n d a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n th is d o c u m e n t r e fl e c ts t h a t in r e g a r d t o d i g i t a l c a m e r a s K a s e e v Tr a d e r s 20 quote fo r R 3 7 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s then approved. M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n o n e c a n g o d o w n r i g h t t h r o u g h a l l o f th e m . T h e s a m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d a n d th e y a c t u a ll y – th e s e t h r e e e n ti t ie s Kaseev Tr a d e r s , U n i t M z a n s i a n d Va lo t o n e th e y a l l s e n t q u o t e s i n r e g a r d t o 2 3 i t e ms r e q u ir e d b y S A P S a s s ti p u l a t e d h e r e . Page 83 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d – a n d s o m e ti m e s t h e o n e w a s a p p r o v e d , sometimes it was another one. there was approval. A ll o f t h e m a t o n e s t a g e o r a n o t h e r Some Kaseev got some approvals for some q u o t e s . U n i te M z a n s i g o t s o m e a p p r o v a l f o r s o m e q u o t e s a n d Va lo t o n e a ls o g o t s o m e a p p r o v a ls . S o t h e y a ll s h a r e d t h i s b u s in e s s . MR WHITE: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d w h a t I w i ll – w il l s h o w l a t e r is t h a t s o m e o f t h a t m o n e y t h e y r e c e i v e d t h e y t h e n s u b s e q u e n t ly p a i d u p t o G o l d C o a s t w h ic h w a s M r P a n d a y ’s e n ti ty. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in G o l d C o a s t h e w a s t h e o n ly s o le m e m b e r ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o w h i le h e w a s u s i n g th e s e e n t i ti e s to w i n t h e w o r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d r e c e iv e d p a y m e n t fr o m th e p o l ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s t h e u l ti m a t e b e n e fi c i a r y. M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : C h a ir b u t m a y b e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y in s o m e o f t h e m o r i n a ll o f t h e m ? M R W H I T E : N o i n s o m e o f t h e m C h a ir b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : In s o m e o f t h e m ja o k a y. M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y th e s e e n t i t ie s w o u l d h a v e t o p a y f o r th e g o o d s th e y b o u g h t . S o a l l t h e m o n e y c a n n o t g o b a c k t o G o l d C o a s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Page 84 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : B u t C h a i r m a y b e j u s t to – t o c o m e b a c k t o – t o u s e o n e a s a n e x a m p l e t o s h o w t h e p r ic e s t h a t t h e y r e c e iv e d f o r t h e s p e c if ic g o o d s . I f I c o u l d r e f e r t o – to l in e 8 a n d l i n e 1 0 . S o li n e 8 a n d l i n e 1 0 t h e g o o d s r e q u ir e d a r e r a ti o n p a c k . C h a ir s o o n t h e s a m e d a y t h e 5 May 2010. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : R a t io n p a c k s w e r e o r d e r e d a n d C h a ir i t i s n o t s u m m a r is e d here but there were 500 packs each of those orders. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R W H I T E : W i th a to t a l o r d e r o f 1 0 0 0 b u t tw o o r d e r s o f 5 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: C h a i r i f o n e lo o k s a t th a t – t h e c h e a p e s t p r ic e w a s provided by Unite Mzansi at R142 500.00. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: C h a ir i t i s m y o p i n i o n t h a t t h o s e o r d e r s w e r e s p li t in t o t w o b e c a u s e if a t o ta l p r ic e o f R 2 8 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 h a d b e e n th e p r ic e t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o o r d e r t h e g o o d s a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : T h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r e q u ir e m e n t t o g o o u t t o te n d e r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e i t is a b o v e t h e R 2 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d C o lo n e l M a d h o e c o u l d n o t a p p r o v e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o o n t h e s a m e d a y t h e y s p li t i t . Page 85 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : T h e p o lic e p a i d R 2 8 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 i f o n e a d d s th e t w o t o g e t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR WHITE: W e f o u n d th a t i n th e r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e s e iz e d fr o m M r P a n d a y ’s e n ti ti e s t h a t t h e o r ig i n a l c o s t o f t h e s e g o o d s w a s R 9 3 2 0 1 .0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o i n e ff e c t e i t h e r M r P a n d a y o r o n e o f h is e n t i ti e s , t h e s e e n ti t ie s – th e e n t i ti e s o r o n e o r m o r e o f t h e m e ff e c tiv e ly p a i d R 9 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 y o u s a id ? M R W H I T E : R 9 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : R 9 3 0 0 0 .0 0 . MR WHITE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e S A P S p a i d m o r e t h a n R 2 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 fo r th e same thing. MR WHITE: Paid R285 000.00. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E: A n d a s a r e s u l t th is e n ti ty m a d e b e i n g U n i t e M z a n s i m a d e a p r o fi t o f R 1 9 1 0 0 0 .0 0 . S o th e y c h a r g e d t h e p o l ic e m o r e th a n t h r e e ti m e s t h e p r ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R W H I T E : T h a t t h e p o lic e c o u l d h a v e b o u g h t i t fo r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir t h a t is fa ir ly c o n s is t e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: A c r o s s t h e b o a r d f o r a ll t h e s u p p li e s r e g a r d le s s o f w h a t they were supplying. Page 86 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o t h e s e e n ti t ie s . M R W H I T E : I t r e l a te s – t h e g o o d s a r e m a r k e d u p . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : To t h a t e x t e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir I c a n m a k e t h a t c o n c l u s i o n b e c a u s e t h e o r i g i n a l s u p p li e r in v o ic e w a s f o u n d i n U n i te M z a n s i o r Va l o to n e ’s r e c o r d s b y t h e p o li c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R W H I T E: A n d th e n t h e in v e s ti g a t in g o ff ic e r s w e n t a n d o b t a in e d s t a te m e n ts fr o m th o s e s u p p li e r s c o n fir m i n g t h e y h a d s u p p li e d t h e goods. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: T h e p r ic e , h o w t h e y w e r e p a i d , w h i c h e n ti ty p a i d t h e m e tc e t e r a ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: goods. A n d ju s t in t h i s in s ta n c e th e s u p p li e r i n v o i c e is f o r 1 0 0 0 I t w a s th e n s p li t in t o tw o o f 5 0 0 w h e n i t w a s s u p p l ie d to t h e p o li c e o n t h e s a m e d a y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R W H I T E : S o t h e y k n e w th e y w e r e r e c e i v in g a n o r d e r f o r 1 0 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e th e y b o u g h t 1 0 0 0 fr o m t h e ir s u p p li e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir I b e l ie v e t h e o n ly i n fe r e n c e t h a t c a n b e d r a w n is Page 87 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t h a t i t w a s d o n e in – o n p u r p o s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: To k e e p it b e l o w th e p r o c u r e m e n t l e v e l t h a t C o lo n e l Madhoe could approve. CHAIRPERSON: In order to make sure that it does not go out on t e n d e r. M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n o t h a v e t h e t o t a l – I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t h e t o t a l o f t h e a m o u n t a t p a g e 2 6 8 w h e n y o u p u t a ll o f t h e s e t o g e t h e r to b e a b le t o s a y m a y b e j u s t o n th e s e 2 3 i te m s t h e y g o t lik e R 1 0 m i ll io n b u t i f t h e p o l ic e h a d a c t u a l ly ju s t g o n e o u t a n d b o u g h t t h e s e t h e m s e l v e s m a y b e t h e y w o u l d h a v e p a i d o n l y R 3 m il li o n . M R W H I T E: C h a ir w h a t I d i d d o is I s u m m a r is e d t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e report. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d I c o v e r i t l a te r in m y a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M R W H I T E: A n d b y w a y o f e x a m p le j u s t i n r o u n d n u m b e r s t h e g o o d s t h a t w e r e b o u g h t f o r R 4 m i ll io n r o u n d t h e y s u p p l ie d t h e m a t R 1 2 m il li o n . S o in t o ta l i t i s a s i m il a r p e r c e n t a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o I h a v e d o n e th a t c a lc u la t io n . CHAIRPERSON: At the end. Page 88 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : O f t h e p r e j u d ic e a t t h e e n d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. MR WHITE: In total. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr W h i t e c a n I p l e a s e r e f e r you now… C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e a r e a t o n e a l r e a d y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh I beg your pardon. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. If it is a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e ? CHAIRPERSON: W e w i ll – w e w i ll ta k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s c o n t in u e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr W h i t e b e fo r e th e adjournment … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . M r W h i t e b e fo r e th e a d j o u r n m e n t y o u w e r e e x p l a i n in g h o w t h e S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P o l ic ie s w o r k e d o r w e r e a p p l ic a b l e t o th e p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t y o u w e r e i n v e s ti g a t i n g . C o u ld y o u n o w d e a l i n a l i tt l e b i t m o r e d e t a i l w i th h o w th e s e p r o v i s i o n s w e r e c ir c u m v e n t e d ? T h e fir s t w a s w it h r e g a r d t o t h e c o v e r q u o ti n g . D i d y o u h a v e Page 89 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 any evidence of this cover quoting? MR WHITE: Ye s C h a ir. As - as I said be - before the lunch a d j o u r n m e n t . T h e e n ti ti e s r e l a t e d i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r t o M r P a n d a y w h ic h i n c l u d e d h is m o t h e r ’s a n d w i f e ’s c o m p a n ie s a s w e ll a s h i s b r o t h e r - in - l a w ’s c o m p a n y w e r e u s e d t o g iv e t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t in d e p e n d e n t q u o t e s w e r e b e i n g o b ta i n e d fr o m t h r e e p a r t i e s . S o i f o n e l o o k e d a t t h e d o c u m e n t s c u ll e d w i th in t h e p o li c e r e c o r d s i t w o u l d a p p e a r th a t t h r e e q u o t e s w e r e o b t a i n e d . Whereas if y o u k n o w t h e b a c k g r o u n d to th e e n ti t ie s a n d th e f a c t th a t f o r a ll i n t e n ts 10 a n d p u r p o s e s t h e s e w e r e M r P a n d a y ’s a l t e r e g o a n d h e e ff e c ti v e ly c o n tr o ll e d a l l o f t h e m a n d t h e y a c t u a l ly o p e r a t e d o u t o f t h e s a m e p r e m is e s a n d t h e s a m e p e r s o n w i t h i n t h o s e p r e m i s e s - w h ic h I w i ll c o m e t o - t o la t e r - a c t u a ll y w a s p r e p a r in g t h e q u o t e s f o r a ll t h r e e e n t i ti e s a n d o n e c a n s e e t h a t t h e v e r y e s s e n c e o f o b t a in i n g c o m p e t it iv e q u o t e s fr o m t h e m a r k e t w a s b e i n g c ir c u m v e n t e d a n d C h a ir i t c a n n o t j u s t b e a c o i n c i d e n c e th a t t h e p e r s o n w i t h i n t h e p o li c e t h a t i s r e q u e s ti n g th e quotes by chance chooses three companies that are linked to each o th e r. I t - it j u s t - t h e s ta t is ti c s o f t h a t h a p p e n i n g b y a c c id e n t is 20 almost impossible. CHAIRPERSON: t h e ir q u o t e s . Ye s . So there were no other companies that sent I t w a s o n ly t h e s e - it w a s o n ly e n ti t ie s l i n k e d t o Mr Panday? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e i f y o u a r e - i f y o u d e a l w i t h t h i s Page 90 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 la t e r, b u t th e r e i s t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h a t t h e p r o c e s s w a s o f g e t ti n g quotes. H o w is - h o w w a s i t p o s s i b l e o r h o w w o u l d t h e y e x p l a i n whoever they were. Th e f a c t th a t a ll t h e t i m e t h e e n t i ti e s w e r e a ll li n k e d t o Mr P a n d a y. M R W H I T E : C h a ir, th e r e is n o e x p l a n a t io n . I t is i m p o s s i b l e to e x p l a i n . T h e p r o c e s s t h a t s h o u ld b e f o l l o w e d is t h e y s h o u l d i d e n t if y s u p p l i e r s fr o m t h e p o l ic e s u p p li e r d a t a b a s e f o r th e t y p e o f g o o d s t h e y a r e l o o k i n g f o r a n d t h e n r e q u e s t t h o s e s u p p l i e r s t o q u o t e a n d C h a ir w h a t w e c a n s e e i s t h a t t h e s e e n t it i e s w e r e n e w t o th e p o l ic e Pr o c u r e m e n t 10 D e p a r t m e n t. T h e y o n ly r e g is t e r e d a t t h e e n d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 . S o i t w a s n o t - a n d th e y w e r e r e g is t e r e d a t th e s a m e ti m e o n th e s a m e d a y. S o e v e r y o n e k n e w t h e y w e r e M r P a n d a y ’s e n t i ti e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: A n d C h a ir j u s t t o - t o t a k e i t a s t e p f u r t h e r w h e n t h e p e o p l e fr o m S u p p ly C h a in w e r e d e a li n g w it h q u e r ie s r e la t in g t o t h e s e e n t i ti e s t h e y s p o k e to o n e p e r s o n r e l a ti n g t o a l l t h e e n t it i e s . S o i f t h e y h a d a q u e r y a b o u t a n in v o ic e o r d e li v e r y n o te t h e y s p o k e to o n e p e r s o n b e i n g M r P a n d a y ’s s e c r e t a r y / p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t . 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r o r r e c a ll w h a t h e r n a m e was? M R W H I T E : C h a ir, h e r n a m e w a s Ta s l e e m R a h i m a n - R - A - H - I- M - A- N . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr W h i te , i f I m i g h t r e f e r y o u to y o u r r e p o r t EXHIBIT RR4A at page 2-3-4. Page 91 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: What page? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 2 - 3 - 4 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 2-3-4? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D o n o t b e t o o f a r a w a y fr o m t h e m i c ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y. S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Yo u r e f e r i n t h e m i d d l e o f th a t p a g e t o a Wa l to n s c o u n t e r b o o k w h ic h y o u p u t “ Ta s le e m R a h i m a n r e c o r d b o o k ” . 10 C o u ld y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a i r a b o u t t h i s r e c o r d b o o k a n d h o w i t w a s obtained? MR WHITE: C h a ir th a t b o o k i s a n o r m a l b l a c k c o v e r e d e x e r c i s e b o o k lik e o n e w o u l d e x p e c t a s c h o o l p u p il t o h a v e . I t is j u s t c a l l e d a W a l t o n s c o u n t e r b o o k . O n th e fr o n t c o v e r o f i t is w r i t t e n w h a t I h a v e i n q u o te s there. I t is “ Ta s l e e m R a h i m r e c o r d b o o k ” i s w r i t te n o n th e c o v e r a n d C h a ir t h a t w a s e ffe c tiv e ly a b o o k t h a t i n t h e i n s id e o f it o n e c o u l d d e t e r m i n e t h a t s h e r e c o r d e d e v e r y t h i n g s h e w a s t o l d to d o . M a n y in s t a n c e s s h e r e f e r s t o i n s tr u c t io n s s h e r e c e iv e s fr o m T h o s h a n b e i n g t h e C h r is ti a n n a m e o f M r P a n d a y a n d s h e w r i t e s d o w n 20 w h a t s h e d i d a n d s h e a ls o w r i t e s d o w n d e a li n g s s h e h a d w i t h p e o p l e fr o m th e p o l ic e p a r ti c u l a r l y M r N a r a i n p e r s a d r e g a r d i n g o r d e r s o r q u o t a t i o n s o r in v o ic e s r e la t in g to a l l th e e n t it i e s th a t a r e r e f e r r e d t o b e f o r e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t . C h a ir, a ls o i n t h a t b o o k s h e r e c o r d s t h e p r ic e s i n m a n y in s t a n c e s t h a t w o u ld b e q u o t e d f o r e a c h o f t h e e n t i ti e s . S o s h e r e c o r d s Page 92 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 e ffe c tiv e l y t h e c o v e r q u o ti n g a n d i n s o m e i n s t a n c e s w e w e r e a b l e t o tr a c e t h o s e - t h e r e c o r d s t h a t s h e h a d w r it t e n i n t h a t b o o k t o t h e a c tu a l u l ti m a t e o r d e r s th a t t h e p o lic e p la c e d a n d th e - th e P a n d a y r e la t e d e n t i ti e s u l ti m a t e ly s u p p li e d w it h th e i n fl a t e d p r ic e s . S o th is b o o k C h a i r it is - i t is w h a t p e o p le a l w a y s w is h e d t h e y c o u l d fi n d i n a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f th is n a t u r e . Where someone writes d o w n w h a t t h e y a c tu a lly d i d . I t w a s t h e fi r s t ti m e f o r m e i n m o r e th a n 2 0 y e a r s o f i n v e s ti g a ti n g w h e r e i t w a s a c t u a ll y f o u n d a n d th is w a s p a r t o f th e r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e s e iz e d b y t h e p o li c e w h e n t h e y d id a s e a r c h o f 10 M r P a n d a y ’s b u s i n e s s p r e m is e s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M r W h i t e , fr o m p a g e s 2 - 3 - 6 o n w a r d s y o u p r o v i d e s o m e e x a m p l e s o f e x tr a c ts fr o m t h is b o o k a n d I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u t o s o m e o f th e m a n d j u s t a s k y o u r c o m m e n t . I f w e c o u l d s t a r t o n p a g e 2 - 3 - 6 . I t is r e c o r d 1 - 9 - 1 - 1 - 0 a n d i t s a y s a t t h e t o p : “ T h o s h a n a s k e d t o r e d o q u o t e s fo r t h e … ” I a s s u m e th a t F F G m e a n s t h e f o ll o w i n g a n d t h e n a t th e b o t t o m : “ A l l m u s t b e d o n e o n t h r e e c o m p a n ie s : G o l d C o a s t , B r a v o s a t a n d Va lo t o n e . ” Do you see that? 20 M R W H I T E : I d o C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm. MR WHITE: S o C h a ir t h a t - m a y b e j u s t t o e x p la i n h o w t h is - h o w I summarised in the report. S o C h a ir w h e n u n d e r d o c u m e n t n u m b e r - t h a t 1 - 9 - 1 - 1 - 0 - C h a ir e v e r y p a g e o f e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s s e i z e d b y th e p o li c e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . Page 93 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. 1 - 9 - 1 … MR WHITE: One. CHAIRPERSON: On page 2-3-6. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. A t t h e t o p le f t h a n d c o r n e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . 1 - 9 - 1 - 1 - 0 . Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir e a c h p a g e o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t w a s s e iz e d b y th e p o li c e o r s u b p o e n a e d b y th e p o l ic e w a s g iv e n a u n i q u e r e f e r e n c e . S o w h a t w h e n w e w o r k e d w i t h t h e d o c u m e n ts i f o n e w a n t e d t o g o b a c k t o 10 t h e o r i g in a l s o u r c e d o c u m e n t . I t c o u l d b e o b t a i n e d i n t h e e v i d e n c e th a t t h e - t h a t t h e p o li c e w e r e s to r i n g . S o t h is b o o k w a s g i v e n n u m b e r s - e v e r y p a g e o f i t w a s numbered. S o th is e v i d e n c e th a t I a m r e fe r r i n g t o c a m e fr o m - fr o m d o c u m e n t 1 - 9 - 1 - 1 - 0 a n d t h e w a y I s u m m a r is e d i t fo r e a s e w a s I h a v e ty p e d u p a t t h e to p o f th a t b o x w h a t A d v o c a te W e n tz e l h a s ju s t r e f e r r e d t o i s a - i s a ty p e d v e r s io n o f t h e h a n d w r i t t e n th a t w a s i n t h e b o o k w h ic h i s d ir e c tly b e l o w t h a t . S o a l l th e e n t r i e s in t h i s b o o k w e r e h a n d w r i t t e n . I h a v e j u s t ty p e d it t o t h e b e s t I c o u l d fr o m d e c ip h e r i n g t h e w r i ti n g … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R W H I T E : A s t o w h a t i t a c tu a lly m e a n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. O k a y. S o t h e - t h e t y p in g i s o r a t le a s t in t e n d e d t o b e a r e f le c ti o n o f w h a t is h a n d w r i t t e n ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. Page 94 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h a t - b u t w h a t c a n b e s e e n t h e r e i s th a t Th o s h a n - b e i n g M r P a n d a y - h a s a s k e d t o r e d o t h e q u o t e s a n d i t is fo r v i d e o c a m e r a s , d i g i t a l c a m e r a s , t h r o w p h o n e s , G P S . S o t h e r e is a - a v a r i e ty of things. A fli p c h a r t b o a r d . A g e n e r a t o r a n d th e s e - a n d t h e n th e in s t r u c t i o n : “ A l l m u s t b e d o n e o n t h r e e c o m p a n ie s : G o l d C o a s t , B r a v o s a t , Va l o t o n e . ” I i n t e r p r e t t h a t to m e a n C h a ir t h a t t h e y m u s t d o t h r e e q u o t e s t h a t a r e e ff e c ti v e ly g o i n g to b e t h e c o v e r q u o t e s t h a t a r e g o in g t o b e 10 u s e d t o s u p p ly t o t h e p o li c e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Could you comm ent on the records … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - I a m s o r r y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: So when it says: “ A l l m u s t b e d o n e o n t h r e e c o m p a n ie s : G o l d C o a s t , B r a v o s a t a n d Va lo t o n e . ” S o y o u a r e s a y in g t h is - y o u in t e r p r e te d t h i s a s a r e q u e s t t h a t q u o t e s fr o m th e s e th r e e c o m p a n i e s b e s e n t th r o u g h ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Could you please comment on the next record - 1-9-1-1-1 - 1-9-1-1-1? M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h i s is a s u m m a r y o f a d is c u s s i o n t h a t I i n t e r p r e t h e r t o h a v e h a d w i t h a g e n tl e m a n b y th e n a m e o f D ir e s h a n K M a k a n a n d t h is is r e l a ti n g t o - to G a r m i n s C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h e r e f - th e n u m b e r Page 95 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 1 4 1 0 i s a - i s a ty p e o f G a r m i n a n d t h e p r i c e t h a t h e h a d q u o t e d h e r w a s R 2 7 9 5 , 0 0 a n d s h e t h e n w r i te s a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e : “ I n fo r m T h o s h a n . H e s a i d to d o q u o t e R 9 9 9 5 , 0 0 . ” C h a ir, a l m o s t f o u r ti m e s t h e p r ic e t h e y a r e g o i n g to p a y f o r i t a n d th e n s h e w r i te s : “Done quotes”. N o w C h a ir i f - i f y o u a r e d o i n g a q u o t e f o r o n e i te m f o r o n e s u p p li e r i t w o u l d b e s i n g u l a r. S o I w o u l d i n te r p r e t t h a t t o a g a i n m e a n t h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e th r e e q u o t e s fo r t h e s u p p ly o f t h i s a n d th e p o li c e i f 10 they had gone to the supplier of the goods they could have bought them f o r a l m o s t a q u a r te r o f t h e p r i c e t h a t th e y u l ti m a t e l y w o u l d h a v e b e e n quoted. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u m ig h t t h e n p l e a s e h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 d o c u m e n t 1 - 9 - 1 - 1 - 9 . C o u ld y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t p l e a s e ? MR WHITE: S o C h a ir t h e n o n t h is i t a p p e a r s th a t M r P a n d a y h a s r e q u e s t e d a b r e a k d o w n fo r th r e e o f t h e c o m p a n i e s a s to w h ic h e n t i ti e s had won what bids. S o f o r G o ld C o a s t s h e h a s r e c o r d e d n o t h in g a n d f o r Va l o to n e s h e h a s r e c o r d e d th r e e i t e m s w h e r e th e y w e r e a w a r d e d i t a n d th e n fo r B r a v o s a t t h e r e a r e s e v e n i te m s w h e r e t h e y w e r e a w a r d e d 20 it . A g a i n C h a ir i n t e r e s t in g t o n o t e a t - a t n o s t a g e d o a n y o f t h o s e p r ic e s e x c e e d R 2 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 , b u t a g a in j u s t in - a c l e a r i n d ic a ti o n t h a t a p e r s o n w o r k i n g d ir e c t ly fo r M r P a n d a y h a s a c c e s s t o a ll th r e e e n t i ti e s r e c o r d s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Th e n i f y o u c o u l d t u r n to p a g e 2 - 3 - 9 a n d Page 96 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 document 1-9-1-2-0? M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir th is o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 2-3-9. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e a n d i t s a id : “ T h o s h a n c a ll e d t o r e d o q u o t e s f o r t h e f o ll o w i n g : G a r m i n G P S 1 4 1 0 ti m e s 1 0 u n i ts . ” S h o u l d h a v e t w o s e t s o f q u o t e s . O n e Br a v o s a t w in s a n d t h e 10 o th e r Va l o to n e w i n s . S o a g a i n y o u c a n s e e fr o m - j u s t f r o m t h e ir o w n r e c o r d s t h a t t h e y a r e k e e p i n g t h a t th e y s p li t ti n g a s to w h ic h e n ti t y th e y w a n t to - w a n t t o w in t h e - t h e o r d e r fo r t h e s u p p l y o f th e g o o d s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: you could explain. A n d t h e n t h e s a m e is r e p e a te d i n 1 - 9 - 2 - 1 i f It is on that same page - 2-3-9. T h is i s f o r t h e v id e o c a m e r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t p a g e - 2 4 0 ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 2 - 3 - 9 . I t is … CHAIRPERSON: And what item? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Document number 1-9-1-20. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Th is o n e n o w - s o 11 r e f e r r e d t o th e q u o te s f o r t h e G a r m i n a n d i f y o u h a v e l o o k a t 1 2 . T h i s o n e i s q u o t e s f o r th e v id e o c a m e r a s a n d th e s a m e k in d o f i n s tr u c t io n . “Do the quotes the same. Tw o s e t s . Va lo t o n e w i n s a n d o n e ti m e B r a v o s a t … ” Page 97 of 148 O n e ti m e 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 MR WHITE: Correct. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n f o r t h e d i g it a l c a m e r a s y o u w il l s e e the same. “Do the quotes the same. Va lo t o n e . Tw o s e t s . One time Bravosat wins. O n e ti m e G old Coast nothing.” M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. I t is - th e r e i s ju s t - t h e r e a r e p a g e s a n d p a g e s o f e x a m p l e s i n t h is b o o k t h a t a r e t h e s a m e w h e r e i t is c l e a r l y b e i n g d o n e o n i n s tr u c ti o n - a c c o r d in g t o t h e b o o k - o f T h o s h a n w h o m I 10 in t e r p r e t t o b e T h o s h a n P a n d a y a n d th a t s h e is p r e p a r i n g th e s e q u o te s a n d - a n d s e n d in g t h e m t h r o u g h . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: If you can go - have a look at page 2-4-1 and d o c u m e n t n u m b e r 1 - 9 - 1 - 2 - 9 . T h e r e is r e f e r e n c e t h e r e . I t s a y s : “ W e n t t o th e S A P S t o d e l iv e r t h e 4 5 b a g s . A ls o d r o p p e d o ff t h e c o r r e c t i n v o i c e s f o r th e d ig it a l a n d v id e o c a m e r a s w i th As h w i n . H e s a i d t h e y w i ll s o r t out.” W h o is A s h w i n ? MR WHITE: 20 C h a ir, A s h w in was the C h r i s ti a n name of C a p t a i n N a r a in p e r s a d . S o h e is r e fe r r e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s th a t? MR WHITE: S o h e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s i n t h e S u p p l y C h a i n th a t prepared the submissions of the three documents that then went to Colonel Naidoo to - to authorise. CHAIRPERSON: Within SAPS? Page 98 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : S A P S i n th e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR WHITE: Supply Chain Management Department in Durban. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR WHITE: S o C h a ir, h e i s r e fe r r e d t o t h r o u g h o u t d o c u m e n ts a s A s h w in o r a s As h - A- S - H . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n i f y o u c a n c o m m e n t o n th e d o c u m e n t number 1-9-1-4-3 further down on that page - page 2-4-1. 10 M R W H I T E : A g a i n C h a i r t h i s is w h e r e a q u o t e h a s b e e n d o n e f o r - o n t h e B r a v o s a t le t t e r h e a d o n - a n d s h e h a s i n fo r m e d T h o s h a n a n d a g a i n i t is d o n e a n d s e n t t o C a p t a i n A s h w i n v i a e m a i l a s w e l l a s f a x . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d a ls o s a i d t o c h a n g e t h e p r ic e . MR WHITE: Correct. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D o y o u s e e th a t ? MR WHITE: C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o C h a ir i f o n e l o o k s a t - a t th e t i m i n g w h e n t h e s e t h i n g s a r e h a p p e n i n g o v e r t h a t s ix m o n t h p e r io d . T h i s is t h e ti m e p e r i o d w h e n t h e s e p o li c e o ffic i a ls a r e r e c e i v i n g g i f ts fr o m M r P a n d a y. 20 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I f y o u c o u ld h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 2 - 4 - 4 d o c u m e n t n u m b e r 1 - 9 - 1 5 - 1 ? If y o u c o u l d j u s t r e f e r t o t h a t. M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h i s i s b a s e d o n w h a t I c o u l d r e a d i n th e b o o k a n d a n d d e t e r m i n e s h e w a s - th e y - t h e s e e n t i ti e s h a d s t a r te d u s i n g a n e w a c c o u n t in g s y s t e m c a l l e d P a s t e l a n d s h e w a s a t te m p t i n g to c a p t u r e t h e s e in t o t h is a c c o u n t in g s y s te m , b u t a g a i n i t i s j u s t c l e a r th a t s h e is Page 99 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 d o i n g B r a v o s a t a s w e ll a s Va lo t o n e a n d w h e n s h e n e e d e d n u m b e r s . She just made them up. I f - i f th e r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r s e tc e t e r a d id n o t w o r k in t h is ( b a c k g r o u n d n o is e ) , b u t a g a i n it i s ju s t a n in d i c a t io n o f b o th e n t i ti e s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l d o y o u w a n t t o r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d t h e w r i ti n g o n - t h a t a p p e a r s a g a in s t 1 - 9 - 1 - 5 - 1 ? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. I t r e a d s : “ I t h e n tr i e d t o c a p tu r e t h e in v o ic e s f o r Br a v o s a t a s w e ll a s Va l o t o n e a n d I n e e d e d a s u p p li e r in v o ic e n u m b e r. I m a d e u p n u m b e r s . ” 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h is i s M r P a n d a y ’s PA ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W h o h a s w r i t t e n - p u t th is in h a n d - in h e r o w n h a n d w r i t in g ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? MR WHITE: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e is r e c o r d i n g w h a t s h e d i d ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e t r i e d - s h e s a y s s h e tr i e d to c a p tu r e t h e i n v o ic e s f o r Br a v o s a t a s w e l l a s Va l o to n e ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o f o r tw o o f th o s e e n t it ie s t h a t y o u to ld m e a b o u t e a r l ie r ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 100 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s h e w a s tr y i n g t o d o i n - in v o ic e s f o r t h e m a n d s h e n e e d e d t h e s u p p li e r in v o ic e n u m b e r a n d s h e m a d e i t u p ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe she - maybe she suspected that she might n e e d a r e c o r d to s h o w t h a t s h e w a s i n s tr u c t e d t o d o th e s e th in g s . M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I t h i n k i t - fr o m m y r e a d i n g o f th is b o o k i t a p p e a r e d ju s t t o b e - s h e k e p t a d e t a i l e d r e c o r d o f e v e r y t h i n g s h e w a s t o ld . S o w h ic h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t is v e r y u n u s u a l u n l e s s y o u w a n t t o m a k e s u r e 10 t h a t th e r e i s a r e c o r d o f … M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i n m y r e p o r t I d i d n o t s p e c u l a t e a s t o w h y s h e d i d it . I j u s t s u m m a r is e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . N o , n o , n o . I - I u n d e r s t a n d . J a . I m e a n to - to w r it e d o w n t h a t s h e j u s t m a d e u p t h e n u m b e r. I t i s li k e s h e - s h e w a n ts t o e i t h e r p r o d u c e t h i s s o m e w h e r e a t s o m e s ta g e o r s h e w a n ts t o m a k e s u r e t h a t s h e c a n s h o w th a t s h e w a s i n s tr u c t e d a n d t h i s is h o w s h e w a s o p e r a ti n g . MR WHITE: C h a ir, r e a d i n g t h e b o o k i t i s v e r y c l e a r ly - in d i c a t e s t h a t a n d C h a ir a s I s a i d i n m o r e t h a n 2 0 y e a r s o f d o in g in v e s t i g a t io n s o f t h i s 20 n a t u r e . Th is i s a … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n e v e r c o m e a c r o s s ? M R W H I T E : F ir s t fo r m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . T h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I f y o u m i g h t ju s t r e a d o n e f u r th e r e n tr y o n p a g e 2 - 4 - 5 d o c u m e n t n u m b e r 1 - 9 - 1 - 6 - 5 in t o t h e r e c o r d a n d c o m m e n t . Page 101 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 MR WHITE: It says: “ C a l le d S h a m il a . ” S h e w a s a n o t h e r p e r s o n th a t w o r k e d i n th e p r o c u r e m e n t a t t h e p o l ic e . “ C a p t a i n As h has gone to the C o m m is s io n e r ’s O ff ic e , b u t s h e c a n h e l p m e w i t h th e in v o ic e s t h a t she r e q u ir e s . R4 000,00 One: Gold f li p Coast plus g e n e r a to r s 1 0 k v Ya m a h a . 92 500. 10 O n e ti m e s 9 0 0 0 0 . 93 250. R2 000,00 in v o ic e . - Tw o : Bravosat one times O n e ti m e s 9 1 0 0 0 . 91 050. chart Va l o t o n e o n e ti m e s G o l d C o a s t o n e ti m e s R e s u b m i t n e w in v o ic e s f o r t h e a b o v e . Digital camera: Va lo t o n e no 100 000). Br a v o s a t i n v o ic e 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 9 7 5 0 0 . invoice for GPS 1410 (10 times G o ld C o a s t i n v o i c e n u m b e r 1 - 0 - 0 - 6 - 7 . M a k e i t th e g e n e r a t o r. D o n e a l l t h e a b o v e . C a ll e d C a p t a i n A s h . H e h a s r e c e iv e d - e v e r y t h i n g i s fi n e . S h a m il a i s j u s t c a p tu r i n g a ll t h e 2 0 1 0 e q u i p m e n t . O n c e s h e is d o n e s h e w il l d o a ll t h e t a c ti c a l w o r k . I n f o r m T h o s h a n a s to w h a t C a p t a i n As h - A s h w i n 20 r e q u ir e s . ” S o a g a i n C h a ir a n d I m e a n t h o s e g e n e r a t o r s th a t a r e r e f e r r e d t o t h e r e a t j u s t a r o u n d 9 0 0 0 0 t o m y r e c o l le c t i o n w e r e c o s t i n g a b o u t R5 000,00. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I t h i n k - I t h in k o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s - I t h i n k C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g d i d s a y th a t fo r e x a m p l e th e r e w o u l d b e a Page 102 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 g e n e r a to r t h a t c o s t a b o u t R 4 0 0 0 , 0 0 , b u t i t g e ts - S A P S g e ts c h a r g e d I t h i n k s o m e w h e r e i n th e r e g i o n o f R 9 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n t h e r e is a n in t e r e s t in g e n tr y o n p a g e 2-5-2 and I am referring to document number 1-9-2-1-0. If you could r e a d t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ? MR WHITE: It says: “ C a m e a n d s o r t e d o u t C a p t a in A s h w i n b o o k i n g a t 10 s o r r y - C a p t a in A s h - As h w i n b o o k in g w i t h K a r i n a t P r o t e a R / B a y. ” W h i c h I i n t e r p r e t t o b e R ic h a r d s B a y. “ I n fo r m e d T h o s h a n . ” C h a ir t h a t e n tr y in t h e b o o k is d a t e d 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 0 a n d w e s u b s e q u e n t ly c o u l d i d e n t i fy t h a t t h a t w a s a b o o k in g m a d e a n d p a id f o r b y T h o s h a n P a n d a y f o r C a p ta i n A s h w in N a r a i n p e r s a d t o s t a y a t t h e P r o t e a H o t e l i n R ic h a r d s B a y a n d w h e n I t a l k a b o u t t h e b e n e fi ts t h a t t h e y r e c e iv e d . T h i s is o n e o f t h e o n e s w h i c h … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. T h e la s t p a g e I h a d w a s w e 20 w e r e g o i n g t o 2 - 5 - 2 - 5 - 2 . Is t h a t w h e r e w e s ti ll a r e ? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir, i t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h ic h n u m b e r ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is d o c u m e n t n u m b e r 1 - 9 - 2 - 1 - 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Page 103 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i t is t h e s e c o n d f r o m t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o y o u e s ta b l is h e d t h a t t h a t r e l a t e d t o a b o o k i n g b a s i c a ll y f o r C a p t a i n - w h a t is h i s n a m e a g a i n ? MR WHITE: Narainpersad. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h ic h w a s t o b e p a i d f o r b y e i t h e r M r P a n d a y o r o n e o f h i s e n ti t ie s ? MR WHITE: C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d w e - w e s u b s e q u e n t ly c o u ld tr a c e t h a t b a c k t o th e b o o k i n g . I t w a s c o n f ir m e d b y a n o ffic ia l fr o m t h e Pr o te a H o t e l i n R ic h a r d s B a y t h a t C a p t a i n N a r a in p e r s a d h a d s ta y e d t h e r e . T h e 10 p o li c e o b t a i n e d a s t a t e m e n t f r o m t h e M a n a g e r o f t h e h o t e l w it h a ll t h e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts a n d p a y m e n t fo r t h e s t a y c o u ld u l t i m a te ly b e tr a c e d b a c k t o P a n d a y r e l a te d b a n k a c c o u n ts o r c r e d i t c a r d s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: N o w M r W h i t e w e h a v e s e e n th a t c o v e r q u o ti n g i n th is r e s p e c t p a r t ic u l a r l y w h e n t h e r e w e r e o n ly t h r e e c o m p a n i e s w h ic h y o u c o n tr o l l e d y o u r s e l f w h o w e r e q u o t in g a n d c o m p e ti n g a g a in s t e a c h o th e r. W h a t a r e t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t i m p a c t t h a t w o u ld h a v e o n t h e b u d g e t o f t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s ? MR WHITE: C h a ir, t h e - t h e s i m p l e a n s w e r i s th e p o li c e w il l p a y s ig n if ic a n tly a b o v e th e m a r k e t r e l a te d p r ic e f o r th e g o o d s t h e y a r e 20 purchasing and as a result money that in these instances we can see in m a n y i n s t a n c e s th e y p a i d t h r e e t i m e s t h e p r ic e . C h a ir, I w il l - I w i ll r e fe r to a s u m m a r y l a te r, b u t o u t o f R 1 2 m il li o n th e y s p e n t b y w a y o f example. T h e g o o d s a c t u a ll y o n ly c o s t P a n d a y 1 2 - f o u r m il li o n . S o t h e p o li c e e ff e c tiv e ly w a s t e d R 8 m il li o n t h a t t h e y g o t n o b e n e fi t fo r. Page 104 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: another m e th o d N o w a p a r t fr o m a c o v e r q u o t in g w h a t w a s used by Mr Panday to c ir c u m v e n t the Supply M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s a n d p r e c e p ts - p e r c e p t’s ? M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, I - I h a d b r i e f ly r e f e r r e d t o i t e a r l ie r a n d t h a t i s w h e r e t h e y s p l it th e o r d e r. a u t h o r i ty within the S o a g a in th a t is j u s t t o k e e p t h e l e v e l o f approval li m i t s of - in this instance - Colonel Madhoe. So that was where they split it to keep it below the t h e R 2 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 l i m i t . T h e o t h e r b e n e fi t o f t h a t is it a l l o w s t h e m to g e t q u o t e s a n d 10 n o t h a v e t o g o o u t t o t e n d e r. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d fo r t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n t h a t w a s p r o v id e d . M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h e o t h e r m e th o d t h a t is u s e d n o t o n ly b y th e s e e n t i ti e s , b u t i n a l o t o f G o v e r n m e n t p r o c u r e m e n t. I s t o j u s t if y th e purchase as an emergency or as an urgent procurement, because if the … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. Be f o r e y o u g o t h e r e . G o i n g b a c k t o C a p t a i n - th e C a p ta in ’s b o o k in g . D i d y o u g e t to k n o w h o w - f o r 20 h o w l o n g h e s t a y e d in th a t h o te l in R ic h a r d s B a y a n d w h a t t h e - w h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y ? W h e t h e r h e w a s o n h o l id a y o r w h a t t h e s to r y w a s ? M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir I w il l … C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s - i n t e r m s o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. W e d id . I w il l c o m e to th e d e t a il l a t e r o n - o n s o m e o f t h e p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e m a d e t o t h e o ffi c i a l s … Page 105 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: B u t b y w a y o f e x a m p le t h e o n e t h a t c le a r ly s t ic k s i n my m i n d is th e s t a y a t t h e K a r r i d e n e H o t e l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : T h e - a ls o a P r o te a H o t e l w a s fo r Va l e n t in e ’s D a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: It was the 14th … C H A I R P E R S O N : O f F e b r u a r y. M R W H I T E : O f F e b r u a r y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: S o t h o s e w e r e - i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e s e w e r e a ll h o li d a y s t a y s . T h e s t a y s f o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d h is f a m il y w a s a tr ip t o C a p e To w n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : A ir ti c k e t s a n d a c c o m m o d a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR WHITE: S o t h e y - t h e y a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n o f - o f a v a c a t io n nature. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. 20 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: What was the - you - you have dealt with the t h e s p l i tt i n g o f in v o ic e s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e a m o u n t is l e s s th a n t h e 2 0 0 0 0 0 c u t o ff l e v e l. W h e r e t h e r e w e r e l a r g e a m o u n t s a s in t h e c a s e o f th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n p r o v i d e d w h a t w e r e t h e p r o c e d u r e s t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d p a r t ic u l a r ly i f t h e r e w a s a n a m o u n t m o r e t h a n 2 0 m il li o n o r 3 0 m il li o n a s i n t h e c a s e o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n ? Page 106 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir in t h e i n s t a n c e o f th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n t h e y s h o u l d h a v e g o n e o u t t o t e n d e r, b u t w h a t w a s d o n e i n t h e le a d u p t o t h e W o r l d C u p a s w e l l a s f o r th e W o r ld C u p th e p o lic e o ff ic ia ls a n d t h e S u p p l y C h a in M a n a g e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t j u s ti fi e d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a s u r g e n t o r a s a n e m e r g e n c y. C h a ir in - a n d a s a r e s u l t t h e y n e v e r g o t - e v e n g o t t h r e e q u o t e s , t h e y g o t o n e q u o t e a n d a p p o in t e d t h a t e n t i ty, th a t e n ti t y w a s G o l d C o a s t . N o w t h e r e ’s m o ti v a t i o n s w r i tt e n , i n m o s t i n s t a n c e s t h o s e m o ti v a t io n s , i f o n e ju s t l o o k s a t t h e m s li g h tly c r i t ic a ll y, m a k e n o s e n s e a t a ll . S o b y 10 w a y o f e x a m p le o n e o f th e b o o k i n g s t h a t w a s d o n e w a s f o r a tr a in i n g e v e n t w h e r e p o lic e o ffi c i a l s – t h a t w a s i n e a r ly 2 0 1 0 n e e d e d to c o m e t o M a r i a n H il l w h i c h i s ju s t o u ts i d e o f D u r b a n f o r a w e e k s tr a i n i n g . Th a t a c c o m m o d a ti o n w a s o n l y b o o k e d o n t h e Fr id a y. P e o p l e d i d n ’ t d e c id e o n F r i d a y, w e ’r e g o in g t o h a v e 3 0 m e m b e r s i n M a r ia n H i ll f r o m S u n d a y N i g h t fo r a w e e k s t r a in i n g , i t w a s b o o k e d a t t h e v e r y la s t m o m e n t a n d o n e m u s t r e m e m b e r th a t G o l d C o a s t , M r P a n d a y ’s e n t it y d id n ’t o w n a n y h o t e l s o r b u il d i n g s t h e y s o u r c e t h e m f r o m o t h e r s u p p li e r s . S o t h a t ’s o n e w h e r e t h e y ju s ti fi e d a s a n u r g e n t p r o c u r e m e n t b u t i t ’s j u s t , e i th e r p o o r p la n n i n g o r fr o m w h a t i t a p p e a r s i t w a s d o n e in t e n ti o n a lly t o le a v e 20 it t o t h e l a s t m in u t e . T h e o th e r o n e s a r e a c c o m m o d a t io n th r o u g h o u t K w a - Zu l u N a ta l w h e r e p o lic e m e m b e r s , f o r o n e r e a s o n o r a n o t h e r, n e e d e d to s t a y in c e r t a i n a r e a s . S o a t th e t i m e th e r e w a s s o m e m u n i c i p a l u n r e s t i n s o m e a r e a s , t h e r e w a s s o m e ta x i v io l e n c e in o t h e r a r e a s a n d t h e y n e e d e d m e m b e r s to s t a y in t h e s e d i ff e r e n t a r e a s . W h a t w a s d o n e i s , a fir s t Page 107 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 b o o k i n g f o r tw o o r th r e e d a y s w a s d o n e o n th e b a s i s t h a t i t’s u r g e n t a n d t h a t i t ’s a n e m e r g e n c y, a b o o k in g w o u l d b e d o n e a n d t h a t b o o k in g w o u ld t h e n b e e x te n d e d o n a w e e k b y w e e k b a s is r e l y i n g o n th e o r ig in a l m o t iv a t i o n f o r s o m e ti m e s i n e x c e s s o f a m o n t h . S o a g a i n , n e v e r g o i n g t o t h e m a r k e t to o b t a i n q u o t e s t o s e e w h e t h e r t h is w a s a f a i r p r ic e a n d in t h a t r e g a r d – s o t h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e l e a d - u p t o th e w o r l d c u p a n d t h e n a s i m il a r s o r t o f m o t iv a t i o n w a s u s e d w h e n m a k i n g th e s i g n i f ic a n t p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t r e l a t e d to th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n i n t h e m o n th a r o u n d th e w o r l d c u p a n d C h a ir i n t h a t i n s ta n c e t h e p o li c e a n d i n t h e m i n u t e s o f 10 t h e v a r i o u s m e e t i n g s y o u c o u ld s e e t h a t s o m e e i g h t m o n t h s b e f o r e t h a t k n e w t h a t t h e y n e e d e d a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r th e ir m e m b e r s t h a t w o u ld b e s t a ti o n e d i n D u r b a n i n t h e m o n t h o f t h e w o r ld c u p . T h e r e w e r e b a c k w a r d s a n d fo r w a r d s s a y i n g i t w a s a n a ti o n a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o p r o v id e t h e a c c o m m o d a t io n b u t i n l a t e 2 0 0 9 w e c a n s e e t h a t s o m e s u p p li e r s w e r e a s k e d to p r o v i d e q u o ta t io n s , th e r e c o r d s t h a t h a v e b e e n w r i t te n b y t h e p o l ic e s a y in g th a t th e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e o u t o f th e t e n f r o m , I t h in k , e ig h t o f t h e s u p p li e r s , o n e s a i d th e y h a d n o a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d G o ld C o a s t s a i d th e y h a d a c c o m m o d a ti o n . The p o li c e i n t e r v i e w e d t h o s e d i ffe r e n t s u p p l ie r s , o r p o te n ti a l s u p p li e r s 20 w h e r e th e s u p p l i e r s a i d n o a c c o m m o d a t io n a v a il a b l e o r n o r e s p o n s e , s o p a r t ic u l a r ly t h e o n e s t h a t s a i d n o r e s p o n s e , t h o s e s u p p li e r s s a i d , w h e n in t e r v ie w e d , t h e y w e r e n e v e r a s k e d t o q u o te b u t t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s , w h e n th e p r o c u r e m e n t w a s u l ti m a t e ly d o n e , 8 0 % o f t h e t o ta l a m o u n t t o b e b o o k e d w a s b o o k e d w i th G o l d C o a s t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: P e r h a p s b e f o r e w e d e a l – b e c a u s e y o u ’r e Page 108 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t o u c h in g o n it n o w, b e f o r e I d e a l i n m o r e d e ta il w i th t h e r u l e s r e g a r d i n g e m e r g e n c y p r o c u r e m e n t, c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h e C o a s t la n d s Hotel? MR WHITE: S o C h a ir t h e C o a s t la n d s G r o u p is a D u r b a n b a s e d g r o u p t h a t o w n s m o r e th a n o n e h o t e l i n D u r b a n , th e y s a i d th e y w e r e n e v e r a s k e d i n 2 0 0 9 to p r o v id e a q u o t a t i o n , t h e y t h e n , to m y r e c o ll e c ti o n w e r e a s k e d i n A p r il a n d M a y o f 2 0 1 0 , t h e y p r o v i d e d q u o t a ti o n s t o th e p o l ic e , t h e y s a i d h o w m a n y r o o m s t h e y h a d a v a i la b l e a n d b e c a u s e i t w a s a n e x t e n d e d p e r io d o f ti m e , t h e y a l m o s t r e s e r v e d th o s e r o o m s , a l th o u g h 10 t h e y d i d n ’ t h a v e a n o ff ic i a l o r d e r f o r t h e p o li c e . Th e p r ic e t h e y w e r e q u o ti n g w a s in t h e r e g i o n o f R 4 0 0 .0 0 a n ig h t p e r p e r s o n . When they u l ti m a t e ly r e c e i v e d a n o r d e r fr o m t h e p o lic e f o r a c c o m m o d a ti o n , b e c a u s e th e y w e r e th e o n e s – G o l d C o a s t r e c e iv e d 8 0 % , C o a s t l a n d s g o t 1 6 % a n d th e n a n o t h e r s m a l l s u p p li e r g o t 4 % , w h e n th e y r e c e iv e d t h e o r d e r i t w a s fo r s i g n i f ic a n t ly l e s s th a n th e n u m b e r o f r o o ms t h e y t o l d t h e p o lic e th e y h a d a v a i l a b le . N o w t h e fa c t i s th e y w e r e s u p p ly in g t h e r o o m s i n t h e r e g io n o f R 4 0 0 .0 0 a n i g h t a n d G o l d C o a s t w e r e q u o ti n g R 8 5 0 . 0 0 a n i g h t , a l m o s t d o u b l e t h e p r ic e . 20 W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d i s , b e c a u s e M r P a n d a y d id n ’t h a v e r o o m s , h e h a d t o s o u r c e r o o m s , e v e n a l t h o u g h h e h a d th e o r d e r, o n e o f t h e s u p p l ie r s h e u s e d t o s u p p l y h i m a s a c o n d u i t to s u p p ly t h e p o li c e w a s C o a s t la n d s , h e h a d g o n e b a c k to C o a s t l a n d s a n d t o l d th e m t h a t b e c a u s e h e w a s o n ly g e t ti n g a r o u n d R 4 0 0 . 0 0 a n i g h t h e t h e n n e g o ti a te d a r a t e fr o m t h e m o f R 3 5 0 . 0 0 a n i g h t p e r p e r s o n s h a r i n g a n d t h e n b i ll e d t h e p o lic e j u s t m o r e t h a n R 9 0 0 .0 0 a n ig h t . Page 109 of 148 S o th e p o l ic e 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 c o u l d h a v e d o n e th e s a m e n e g o ti a ti o n a n d b o u g h t t h e r o o m fo r R 3 5 0 . 0 0 a n d C h a ir t h e r e ’s – i t’s th o u s a n d s o f n i g h ts , s o u l ti m a t e ly t h e r e w e r e m o r e th a n 2 0 0 0 0 n i g h ts o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n b o o k e d th r o u g h G o l d C o a s t a n d if e v e r y th in g is b e i n g c h a r g e d d o u b l e th e p r i c e o n e c a n s e e h o w q u ic k ly t h e p r e j u d ic e t o t h e p o l ic e a c c u m u l a te s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f w e c a n t h e n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: One second, yes. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I f I c a n th e n r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 1 7 1 a n d t h e r e y o u d e a l w i th p a r t 5 o f t h e S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t m a n u a l w h i c h 10 d e a ls w i th u r g e n t a n d e m e r g e n c y c a s e s . Could you please explain to t h e C h a ir w h a t t h e r u l e s w e r e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h is ? MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e p o l ic e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s w e r e n o d i ff e r e n t f r o m w h a t o n e fi n d s i n m o s t G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e l i n k e d b a c k t o t h e P u b lic F i n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t Ac t a n d t h e R e g u l a ti o n s a n d g u i d e li n e s t h a t h a v e b e e n i s s u e d b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y r e l a t e d t o t h a t a n d C h a ir i t ’s w h e r e a n u r g e n t a n d e m e r g e n c y tr a c e s a r e s o r t o f a l m o s t u s e d i n t e r c h a n g e a b ly, t h e t e r m in o lo g y b u t w h a t i t d o e s s a y is th a t t h e s u p p ly o f t h e g o o d s i s o f c r i tic a l i m p o r ta n c e a n d th e n a n d t h a t t h e r e m u s t – p e o p l e ’s , e ff e c t iv e ly l iv e s a r e i n d a n g e r a n d t h a t 20 if i t ’s n o t p r o c u r e d u r g e n t ly th e n p e o p le a r e in d a n g e r a n d t h e ir l iv e s c a n b e a ff e c t e d . S o C h a ir, I m e a n , a n e x a m p l e w o u l d b e i f th e r e w a s fl o o d d a m a g e a n d a h o s p i t a l ’s r o o f w a s b l o w n o ff o n e w o u ld s e e , th a t ’s a n e m e r g e n c y, y o u w o u l d n e e d t o f ix it u r g e n tl y b e c a u s e a h o s p i t a l c a n ’ t o p e r a t e a n d p a ti e n ts a r e e x p o s e d t o t h e e le m e n ts . S o t h o s e a r e t h e k i n d o f t h i n g s t h a t , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is ju s t i fi e d i n t h is b a s is b u t Page 110 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 h e r e t h e r e ’s a a c c o m m o d a t i o n fo r a n e v e n t t h a t a s S o u th A fr ic a w e h a d k n o w n a b o u t f o r y e a r s a n d y e a r s b e f o r e , w e h a d b u i lt s t a d i u m s b u t th e p o li c e c o u l d n ’ t m a n a g e to p r o c u r e a c c o m m o d a ti o n u n t il t h e m o n t h b e f o r e th e e v e n t . C h a ir w h a t i t a l s o s e ts o u t is th a t y o u c a n ’ t u s e b a d p l a n n in g o r t h e la c k o f p r o p e r p l a n n in g a s a r e q u ir e m e n t t o j u s t i fy a n urgent procurement and for c ir c u m v e n t in g the procurement r e q u ir e m e n t s a s a r e s u l t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M r W h i t e fr o m y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s w e r e t h e r e m e e ti n g s h e l d r e g a r d i n g t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t 10 t h o s e m e e ti n g s ? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir t h o s e w e r e t h e m e e ti n g s th a t I s a i d I r e fe r r e d t o e a r l ie r t h a t g o b a c k , s o m e e i g h t m o n th s , s o t o w a r d s th e e n d o f 2 0 0 9 w h e r e i t ’s b e e n d is c u s s e d a t R e g i o n a l p l a n n i n g m e e ti n g w i t h i n K Z N t h a t t h e r e ’s g o i n g t o b e a d d i t io n a l m e m b e r s f r o m o t h e r p r o v in c e s b r o u g h t t o K Z N t h e y w il l b e s t a y i n g i n D u r b a n a n d t h e y w il l n e e d t o b e a c c o m m o d a t e d a n d t h a t ju s t k e e p s g e t t in g d e f e r r e d – a n u m b e r o f t h e in p u t s i n t o th o s e m e e ti n g s a r e fr o m C o lo n e l M a d h o e a g a i n , t h e p e r s o n w h o ’s u l ti m a t e ly r e s p o n s ib le f o r s o m e o f t h is p r o c u r e m e n t f o r i n s e r ti n g G o l d C o a s t in t o th e e q u a t i o n a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s r e c e iv i n g b e n e f i ts 20 f o r h i m s e l f a n d h i s f a m i ly fr o m M r P a n d a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i t ’s c o r r e c t h e w a s s a y i n g , w h e n h e w a s a s k e d , h e ’s s ti ll w a i ti n g f o r f e e d b a c k fr o m h e a d o ff ic e ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h e n i t g e t s t o th e v e r y l a s t m o m e n t a n d t h e y d o a m o t iv a ti o n t o h e a d o ff ic e to a p p r o v e th e p r o c u r e m e n t o n t h e b a s is t h a t i t’s n o w a n e m e r g e n c y. Page 111 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M r W h i te i f w e c a n th e n h a v e a l o o k a t t h e s u b m is s io n m a d e b y M a j o r G e n e r a l P il l a y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: O n e s e c o n d , t h a n k y o u c o n ti n u e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f w e c a n th e n h a v e a l o o k a t t h e s u b m is s io n s ig n e d o ff b y M a jo r G e n e r a l P i ll a y w h ic h y o u d e a l w i t h o n p a g e s 2 1 7 to 2 2 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, w h e r e d o y o u w a n t u s to … ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 217. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Of Exhibit RR4A. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s , s o r r y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Page 227? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 2 1 7 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 217? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr W h i t e y o u d e a l w i t h t h i s e x t e n s iv e ly in y o u r r e p o r t a ll t h e w a y u p to p a g e 2 3 0 , i f y o u w o u l d n ’ t m i n d e x p l a in in g and p r o v i d in g your c o m m e n ts to the C h a ir w i th regard to th e s u b m is s io n s m a d e m o ti v a t in g u r g e n c y o r a n e m e r g e n c y in t h i s c a s e ? 20 MR WHITE: S o C h a i r t h is d o c u m e n t w a s a d o c u m e n t th a t w a s s u b m i tt e d t o t h e N a t i o n a l B i d A d j u d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e o f th e p o l ic e , i t w a s d a t e d t h e 4 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 0 . O n e r e c a l ls C h a ir t h a t ’s a b o u t a m o n t h b e f o r e t h e w o r l d c u p s t a r te d a n d C h a ir t h is m o t iv a t i o n w a s t o o b t a in a p p r o v a l t o d e v ia t e f r o m n o r m a l b id d i n g p r o c e d u r e s b y f i n a li s i n g t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d r e q u ir e m e n t on a q u o ta t io n Page 112 of 148 b a s is in terms of 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p a r a g r a p h 1 6 ( a ) 5 . 4 o f t h e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s is s u i n g t e r m s o f t h e P F M A o n a n u r g e n t b a s is . C h a ir, a s I’ v e a lr e a d y in d i c a t e d , t h i s w a s k n o w n w e ll i n a d v a n c e . If th e r e w a s a m o tiv a ti o n t o b e d o n e n o w t h e b a s is f o r n o t f o ll o w i n g p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w o u l d n o t b e t h a t i t w a s a n e m e r g e n c y, it w o u ld h a v e to b e j u s t if i e d t h a t th e y d i d n ’ t p l a n p r o p e r ly a n d th e y n o w n e e d t o – t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e t i m e to g o o u t f o r te n d e r s . C h a ir b u t th e s u b mi s s io n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I g u e s s o n w h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t o ld m e , t h e y d i d p l a n b u t t h e y p la n n e d t o b e a t t h e s y s t e m . 10 MR WHITE: C h a ir t h a t ’s 1 0 0 % c o r r e c t b e c a u s e p r io r t o t h is t h e y h a d a lr e a d y o b t a in e d q u o t e s fr o m C o a s t la n d s a n d G o ld C o a s t i n A p r il a n d M a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o th e y ’ d a lr e a d y id e n t i fi e d w h o t h e y w e r e g o in g to u s e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. M R W H I T E : B u t C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 3 o f th i s s u b m is s i o n w h ic h I r e fe r t o a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 2 1 7 , p a r a g r a p h 1 3 .0 2 5 i t s ta t e s , “ D u e t o t h e s h o r t p e r i o d b e t w e e n n o w a n d t h e i n d ic a te d d a t e s o n w h i c h t h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n is r e q u ir e d , a s w e ll a s t h e f a c t 20 t h a t th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n s m u s t n o t b e k n o w n t o th e p u b lic , i t is i m p o s s i b le t o a d v e r ti s e a b i d i n t h is r e g a r d ” , C h a ir I a g r e e t h e r e w a s a s h o r t p e r io d , w h ic h w a s o f t h e ir o w n m a k i n g b u t C h a ir t h e p a r t t h a t m a k e s a b s o l u te ly n o s e n s e to m e i s th e f a c t t h a t p a r t o f th is m o t iv a ti o n w h ic h w a s s i g n e d o ff b y M a j o r G e n e r a l P il l a y a s w e l l w a s t h a t t h e y d id n ’t w a n t t h e p u b lic t o k n o w w h e r e t h e Page 113 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p o li c e w e r e s ta y i n g d u r i n g th e w o r l d c u p fo r s a f e ty r e a s o n s , l a t e r o n t h e y r e f e r to i t a s f o r s a fe ty r e a s o n s . C h a ir a d v e r tis i n g t o s a y p l e a s e , t o p o t e n t i a l s u p p l i e r s , c a n y o u p r o v i d e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d a t w h a t p r i c e in n o w a y d o e s th a t te ll t h e p u b l ic w h e r e t h e p o l ic e w il l a c t u a l ly be saying. S o C h a ir it is ju s t – a n d t h i s is s ig n e d o ff b y n u m e r o u s p e o p l e , t h is – o f w h i c h M a jo r G e n e r a l R S P il la y w a s th e l a s t p e r s o n to s ig n o ff b u t C h a ir i f h e h a d a p p li e d h is m i n d i n a n y w a y h e w o u l d h a v e s a i d , t h is m o t iv a ti o n c a n n o t m a k e a n y s e n s e b u t t h a t ju s t s h o w s t h e le n g t h t h a t w a s g o n e t o , t o tr y a n d j u s ti fy t h e b a s is f o r a n e m e r g e n c y 10 b e c a u s e t h e y a c t u a l ly d i d n ’ t h a v e a b a s i s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i f I c o u ld ju s t r e fe r y o u to p a g e 2 1 9 . MR WHITE: S o C h a i r a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 .0 3 0 I’ v e t a k e n a n e x tr a c t o f w h a t M a j o r G e n e r a l R S P i ll a y ’s a u t h o r i s a t io n a t t h e e n d o f t h is d o c u m e n t s a i d a n d h e – i n h a n d w r i ti n g w h i c h I a s s u m e d to b e h i s is s t a t e d , “ C e r ti fi e d a s b e i n g u r g e n t a n d b a s e d o n s a f e t y a n d s e c u r i ty o f t h e m e m b e r s o f th e S A P S , t h e r e ’s t h e n a s ig n a t u r e th a t says L o g is ti c s : S W C w h ic h I ’v e i n te r p r e t e d t o b e s o c c e r w o r l d cup t h e n th e r e ’s a s t a m p t h a t s a y s R S P i ll a y, M a jo r 20 and General”. S o C h a ir i t ’s n o t l ik e h e s ig n e d w i t h o u t r e a d in g w h a t w a s p u t b e f o r e h i m , h e ’s a c t u a l ly s a i d i t ’s b e c a u s e o f t h e s a f e ty … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MR WHITE: Wrote it himself. J a w h ic h d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e C h a ir, i t ’s n o t a b a s is f o r c ir c u m v e n ti n g th e p r o c e d u r e s . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. Page 114 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n i f I c a n ju s t p o i n t o u t o n p a g e 2 2 1 i n p a r a g r a p h – t h e m id d l e p a r a g r a p h i t ’s 1 3 . 0 3 5 y o u p o i n t o u t t h e r e t h a t t h e p o l ic e w e r e d is c u s s i n g a c c o m m o d a t i o n o f p o l ic e m e m b e r s d u r i n g t h e s o c c e r w o r ld c u p a s e a r ly a s M a r c h 2 0 0 9 . MR WHITE: T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, th a t w a s in a c o m m i t t e e t h a t t h e y c a l l e d S e c t i o n F o u r C o m m i t t e e w h ic h w a s a r o u n d t h e p l a n n i n g t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e w o r l d c u p a n d y e s C h a i r it ’s m o r e th a n a y e a r p r io r t o t h e w o r l d c u p t h a t t h e y w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n . Th a t w a s a m o n th ly m e e t in g a n d i t w a s a s t a n d in g i t e m o n t h e a g e n d a b u t i t to o k 10 t h e m u n t il J u n e to a c t u a l ly p u t th e m o t iv a ti o n fo r th e t e n d e r w a i v e r t o t h e B i d A d j u d ic a ti o n C o m m i t t e e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w y o u ’v e to u c h e d o n t h e b e n e fi ts t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d b y p e o p l e in – a s s o c ia t e d w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d y o u s u m m a r is e t h is i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t o n p a g e 2 1 , s o I’ m b a c k i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t n o t in y o u r r e p o r t . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e e x p l a in t o th e C h a i r t h e f o o t n o t e s t h a t y o u ’v e in c l u d e d u n d e r t h a t t a b le a n d a l s o f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s , i n d i c a t e w h a t t h e v a l u e o f th e b e n e fi t w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d id y o u s a y t h e p a g e is o n t h e a ff id a v i t? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 2 1 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . MR WHITE: C h a ir t h a t ta b l e is a n e x tr a c t fr o m m y r e p o r t a n d I’v e s u m m a r i s e d th e p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e m a d e f o r th e b e n e f i t o f v a r i o u s p o li c e o ffic i a ls . In l i n e o n e i t ’s M a d h o e w h ic h w a s C o lo n e l M a d h o e i t w a s R 8 9 1 0 4 .9 5 , C h a ir a n d t h e f o o t n o te t o t h a t s h o w s t h a t t h e r e w a s O y s te r Box R 6 0 1 0 .0 0 , SA Airways, R8 584.00, Page 115 of 148 Advocate Cars 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 R60 000.00, Western Grand Cape To w n , R14 510.95. Th e second…[intervenes]. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : If y o u c o u l d ju s t e x p l a i n t h o s e a s f a r a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d e a c h o f th o s e ? MR WHITE: S o C h a ir t h e O y s t e r B o x w a s a s t a y f o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d I a s s u m e h is w if e a t t h e O y s t e r B o x H o t e l i n D u r b a n it w a s f o r a w e e k e n d i t w a s p a i d fo r b y M r P a n d a y ’s D i n e r ’s C lu b c a r d a n d t h e d o c u m e n ts – a n d i n e a c h o f t h e s e C h a ir t h e s u p p li e r o f t h e g o o d s o r s e r v ic e w a s i n t e r v ie w e d b y th e p o l ic e , t h e y p r o v id e d s t a t e m e n ts t h e y 10 p r o v i d e d a l l th e s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n t s , h o w t h e o r d e r w a s m a d e , h o w i t w a s p a i d f o r a n d w h e r e i t w a s h o t e l a c c o m m o d a ti o n , h o w t h e y – th e r e g is t e r w h e r e t h e v a r io u s p o lic e m e n s i g n e d i n t o s ta y o r a n y o t h e r s li p s t h a t t h e y s i g n e d w h i le s ta y i n g i n th e h o t e l , s o t h e y p r o v id e d a ll t h a t d o c u m e n t a ti o n . C h a ir s o b a s e d o n t h a t I’ v e g o t n o d o u b t i n my m i n d t h a t th e s e i n d iv i d u a l s r e c e iv e d t h e s e b e n e fi ts . W h e r e i t r e l a te s t o t h e A d v o c a te C a r s i t w a s a c a r t h a t w a s b o u g h t b y M r P a n d a y fo r C o l o n e l M a d h o e , S A A i r w a y s w a s a ir tic k e ts to C a p e To w n f o r C o lo n e l M a d h o e a n d h is f a m ily … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 explained what I ’ m s o r r y h a v e I m i s s e d s o m e t h in g , h a v e y o u that A d v o c a te Cars – w h a t ’s th e reference Advocates? M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t ’s j u s t th e n a m e o f th e s u p p li e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t ’s t h e n a m e o f t h e s u p p li e r o k a y. M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir i t ’s g o t n o t h in g to d o w i t h t h e l e g a l p r o f e s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. Page 116 of 148 to 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : A n d t h e n th e W e s t e r n G r a n d H o t e l w a s a c c o m m o d a t i o n fo r C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d h i s f a mi ly i n C a p e To w n . T h e s e c o n d o n e w a s f o r C a p t a i n N a r a in P r a s a d R 5 9 6 6 2 .7 1 , t h e s e w e r e – t h a t ’s a t o ta l o f – i n v a r s i ty c o l le g e p a y m e n t o f R 4 3 5 0 0 . 0 0 i t w a s a p a y m e n t m a d e f o r o n e o f C a p t a in N a r a i n P r a s a d ’s c h il d r e n t o a tt e n d u n i v e r s i ty. T h e r e ’s a p a y m e n t t o G a m e S t o r e s o f R 7 1 5 4 . 0 0 t h a t w a s a t r e a d m il l th a t w a s b o u g h t b y M r P a n d a y a n d th e d e li v e r y s h o w s i t a s b e in g d e liv e r e d t o C a p t a i n N a r a i n P r a s a d ’s h o u s e . T h e P r o t e a H o t e l K a r r i d e n e w a s a s t a y o v e r th e , t o my r e c o ll e c t io n , i t w a s f o r C a p t a i n N a r a i n Pr a s a d a n d h is 10 w i f e a n d t h e n t h e P r o t e a H o t e l R ic h a r d s B a y t h a t I r e f e r r e d to e a r l ie r, t h a t w a s i n t h e s e c r e ta r y ’s b o o k w h e r e s h e c o n fir m e d t h a t s h e ’ d m a d e t h e b o o k i n g , t h a t ’s R 7 2 5 6 . 0 0 . b e n e fi t of Lieutenant Commissioner at th e C h a ir t h e n t h e r e ’s a p a y m e n t f o r t h e General time Ngobeni R20 962.00, being this was the a Provincial payment of R 1 8 7 1 2 . 0 0 t o t h e D is h r e s ta u r a n t in U m h l a n g a f o r h e r h u s b a n d ’s b ir t h d a y a s w e l l a s a p a y m e n t o f R 2 2 5 0 .0 0 t o t h e D J t h a t w a s b o o k e d a n d p a i d f o r, a ls o b y M r P a n d a y f o r t h a t e v e n t a n d t h e n t h e l a s t p a y m e n t i s f o r M a j o r G e n e r a l R S P i ll a y R 1 5 3 5 . 9 2 , C h a ir t h a t w a s fo r t h e h i r e o f a v e h ic le a t th e D u r b a n a ir p o r t t h a t w a s b o o k e d a n d p a id f o r 20 b y Mr P a n d a y ’s e n ti ti e s a n d i t w a s t h e u s e o f t h a t v e h ic l e , t h e p e r s o n w h o ’s n a m e i t w a s b o o k e d i n a n d s ig n e d f o r i t w a s R S P i ll a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: party for General T h e n w i th r e g a r d to t h e s u r p r is e b ir t h d a y N g o b e n i ’s husband are you aware of any in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t w e r e c a r r i e d o u t w i t h r e g a r d to t h a t , w a s th e r e s t a u r a t e u r i n te r v i e w e d b y p o lic e ? Page 117 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : H e w a s C h a ir, h e p r o v id e d a n a ff id a v i t a s w e l l a s v a r i o u s s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts . T h a t e v e n t w a s b o o k e d b y Mr P a n d a y, t h e r e w a s a n in i ti a l p a y m e n t o f R 1 0 0 0 0 .0 0 c a s h , th e b a l a n c e o f t h e p a y m e n t b e i n g R 8 7 1 2 . 0 0 w a s p a i d f o r u s i n g M r P a n d a y ’s c r e d i t c a r d a n d w h il e h e w a s n ’ t a w a r e o f w h o ’s b ir th d a y it w a s , h e w a s t o l d t h a t M r P a n d a y w a s n ’ t a t t e n d in g b u t i t w a s t h e Br ig a d i e r ’s b ir th d a y. General – L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l’s N g o b e n i ’s h u s b a n d i s a B r ig a d i e r i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e a n d t o m y k n o w l e d g e it ’s n o t d i s p u t e d t h a t it w a s h e r h u s b a n d ’s b ir t h d a y a n d th a t it w a s p a i d f o r b y M r P a n d a y. I n a d d i ti o n 10 t o t h a t th e D J t h a t p l a y e d th e m u s ic a n d p r o v i d e d t h e m ic r o p h o n e f o r t h e e v e n i n g h a s a ls o p r o v i d e d a n a ff id a v i t a n d h e c o n fir m e d t h a t it w a s N g o b e n i’s th a t a tt e n d e d t h e f u n c ti o n to g e t h e r w i th s o m e fr i e n d s a n d h e w a s p a i d R 2 2 5 0 . 0 0 f o r a t t e n d in g t h e e v e n i n g a n d p r o v i d in g t h e e q u ip m e n t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d a r e y o u a w a r e w h e th e r t h e r e s ta u r a te u r w a s a p p r o a c h e d t o e x p l a i n th is a n d w h o h a d p a i d f o r – w h o h a d b o o k e d t h e p a r ty a n d w h o h a d p a i d fo r t h e p a r ty a n d w h a t h e s a id ? MR WHITE: H e w a s C h a ir h e p r o v i d e d a n a ffi d a v it t o g e th e r w i t h t h e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts s h o w i n g t h e r e c e i p t o f t h e R 1 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 c a s h , th a t 20 h e d e a l t w i t h Mr P a n d a y a n d h e a l s o e x p l a i n e d , a n d I d o n ’t k n o w w h y, b u t Mr P a n d a y a s k e d h i m t o g i v e h i m a n i n f l a te d i n v o ic e f o r a h i g h e r a m o u n t w h ic h h e t h e n p r o v i d e d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y I m is s e d , w h o p r o v id e d t h a t a ff id a v i t? M R W H I T E : T h e m a n a g e r o f th e D is h R e s t a u r a n t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Page 118 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : S o h e p r o v id e d a ll th e d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g t o t h e b o o k i n g a n d t h e p a y m e n t a n d w h o a t t e n d e d b u t h e w a s a ls o a s k e d b y M r P a n d a y to p r o v i d e a n in v o ic e fo r a h i g h e r a m o u n t. Chair I can’t see w h y h e w o u l d a s k f o r th a t a n d t h e o n l y r e a s o n I c a n t h i n k o f i s t h a t M r P a n d a y m a y h a v e b e e n w a n ti n g t o t e ll t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r t h a t t h e b ir t h d a y p a r ty c o s t m o r e t h a n i t a c tu a ll y d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w a s i n f l a t e d , d id h e a g r e e t o i n fl a te i t? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 What was the correct amount that he should have in c l u d e d w h a t w a s t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir h e s h o u ld h a v e i n c l u d e d R 1 8 7 1 2 . 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : B u t C h a ir a n e x a m p l e j u s t if I c o u l d r e fe r to i t i n R R 4 A a t page 325. CHAIRPERSON: MR WHITE: Ye s . C h a ir th a t ’s a c o p y o f th e – w h a t h e c a ll e d th e in f la t e d in v o ic e t h a t h e h a d p r o v i d e d , C h a ir a t t h e t o p l e f t - h a n d c o r n e r y o u c a n s e e i t ’s t h e D is h R e s t a u r a n t , th e c u s t o m e r, t h e m id d l e j u s t b e l o w t h a t t h e n a m e is Mr s B M N g o b e n i a n d th e n o n t h e r ig h t- h a n d s i d e j u s t b e l o w 20 t h e h e a d in g , ta x i n v o i c e , w e h a v e in v o ic e d a t e , 3 0 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 0 a n d t h e n w e h a v e j o b n u m b e r, i t s a y s M r P a n d a y a n d t h e n i t s e t s o u t t h e c o s ts th a t – o f w h a t w a s b i ll e d . C h a ir I h a v e t h e n u m b e r s o m e w h e r e i n t h e r e p o r t b u t i f w e t o t a l t h o s e u p i t c o m e s t o R 2 9 7 1 2 . 0 0 s o i t ’s a p p r o x i m a te ly R 11 0 0 0 . 0 0 m o r e t h a n i t a c t u a ll y c o s t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y th a n k y o u . Page 119 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d C h a ir j u s t f o r y o u r p u r p o s e s , t h e – t h is is s u e is d e a l t w i t h fr o m p a g e 3 2 2 o f t h e a ffi d a v i t, i t’s th e D i s h R e s ta u r a n t a n d t h e r e s t a u r a t e u r i s a M r Fr e d d y S i n g h . MR WHITE: C h a ir, m a y b e j u s t to r e f e r b a c k , I s a id th a t o f t h e R 1 8 0 0 0 . 0 0 , R 1 0 0 0 0 .0 0 w a s p a i d in c a s h a n d t h e b a l a n c e u s i n g a c r e d i t c a r d a n d C h a ir ju s t o n p a g e 3 2 4 , s o t h e p a g e p r i o r t o th e o n e w e ’r e c u r r e n t ly a t , is a n e x tr a c t o f M r P a n d a y ’s c r e d i t c a r d a n d t h e n i n t h e m i d d l e in t h a t r e d b o x w e c a n s e e , D is h U m h la n g a R i d g e R8 712.00. 10 S o t h o s e w e r e th e d o c u m e n ts w e c o u l d f i n d t o c o n f ir m , o n e , w h a t th e p e o p l e s a i d b u t a s w e ll a s d o c u m e n t a ti o n to s u p p o r t h o w it w a s p a i d fo r e tc e t e r a . C h a ir a n d o n e ju s t n e e d s t o r e m e m b e r t h a t a r o u n d th e s a m e t i m e a s t h i s is w h e n t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s t e ll i n g B r ig a d i e r K e m p a n d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o s t o p t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n in t o t h is p r o c u r e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: P e r h a p s t h a t y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d th a t n o w a n d b e f o r e d e a li n g w i th t h i s – w i th M a j o r G e n e r a l – G e n e r a l N g o b e n i f u r th e r w h ic h I w il l d o y o u p r e p a r e d a t i m e l in e a n n e x e d to y o u r r e p o r t . I t is A n n e x u r e T S W 3 o n p a g e 5 1 4 . I t is in b u n d l e B . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex h ib i t R R 4 d ? M R W H I T E : B C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B fo r B e a tr ic e ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B . B f o r B e a tr ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t p a g e ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 5 1 4 C h a ir. Page 120 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : C h a ir e ffe c t iv e l y t h a t … ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir I a m j u s t – s o r r y I n o t ic e d t h a t th e g e n tl e m a n w h o is s u p p o s e d to b e d o i n g o u r o v e r h e a d s li d e s I d o n o t see him. So… C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o n o r m a l ly k e e p s a n e y e o n t h e m a n d t h e y c o m m u n ic a te w i th h i m i f t h e r e is a p r o b l e m . D id h e in d i c a t e th a t t h e r e w a s a p r o b le m ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 W e ll n o t to b e m e C h a ir. He was here this m o r n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r r e a l is e h e is n o t t h e r e ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m t u r n i n g – I – h e – I t h i n k t h is w h e r e h e s i ts C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t th in k th a t i s h is c o m p u t e r. P e r h a p s h e h a s g o n e t o – f o r a c o m f o r t b r e a k . B u t w e c a n c o n ti n u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o t b e e n to l d t h e r e is a p r o b l e m . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – j a o k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. N o w h e r e y o u – t h e h e a d in g o f t h e d o c u m e n t is R e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n s i g n i fi c a n t e v e n t s a n d t h e b e n e fi ts t o t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e s p e r s o n n e l . Could you b r i e fl y t a k e th e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h is d o c u m e n t? M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h a t – t h a t d o c u m e n t i f e ff e c tiv e ly a ti m e li n e o n Page 121 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 w h ic h I h a v e i n s e r t e d t h e d a t e s o n w h ic h th e v a r i o u s b e n e fi ts w e r e p r o c u r e d f o r th e d i ff e r e n t p o l ic e o ff ic ia ls . S o if o n e t h e n – t h e c o l o u r s o n t h e – o n t h e d ia g r a m C h a ir t h e d i ff e r e n t c o l o u r s r e l a te t o d i ffe r e n t p o li c e o ff ic ia ls . S o a t t h e v e r y b o t to m o f t h e p a g e I h a v e a k e y w h e r e p i n k r e l a t e s t o th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r N g u b e n i . G r e e n r e l a te s t o C a p t a i n N a r a i p e r s h a d . R e d f o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d b l u e f o r R S P i ll a y. C h a ir w h a t o n e c a n s e e i f o n e j u s t lo o k s a t t h e b o t to m o f t h a t p a g e – s o b e l o w t h e y e ll o w l i n e i n t h e m i d d le . T h e fir s t e n tr y I h a v e i s o n t h e – [i n d is t in c t] i n th e mi d d l e o f th e p a g e a n d it is t h e O y s te r B o x 10 a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e i t is t h e 1 4 t h a n d 1 5 t h N o v e m b e r. S o th a t e ff e c ti v e ly r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h is p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . T h a t i s ju s t b e f o r e C o l o n e l M a d h o e a s s is t e d P a n d a y in h a v i n g h is w i f e a n d m o th e r ’s e n ti t ie s r e g i s t e r e d o n t h e P o lic e S u p p li e r D a t a B a s e a t t h e 3 0 N o v e m b e r. S o t w o w e e k s b e f o r e t h a t th e r e is a s t a y a t p r o b a b l y o n e o f t h e m o s t e l i te h o te ls i n D u r b a n a n d U m h l a n g a fo r C o l o n e l Madhoe. C h a ir th e – i t t h e n c o n ti n u e s a n d o n e c a n s e e th a t f a ir ly c o n s i s te n tl y a c r o s s t h a t p a g e t h r o u g h t o t h e l a s t o n e o n t h e b o t t o m r ig h t is th e D is h R e s t a u r a n t f o r t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r – t h a t b e n e fi t w h i c h w a s o n t h e 2 9 M a y 2 0 1 0 . S o i t is r i g h t th r o u g h th e 20 p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s l e a d i n g u p t o th e W o r l d C u p . A n d C h a i r a t th e – a t th e t o p o f t h e p a g e i f o n e ju s t l o o k s a t t h e p in k i t e m s . S o t h e f ir s t p i n k li n e i t m a y b e a b i t d i ffi c u l t to s e e C h a ir b u t i t i s d a t e d t h e 5 M a y 2 0 1 0 a n d t h a t w a s t h e fi r s t d a te t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o B r i g a d i e r K e m p h e w a s i n s tr u c t e d b y P C M g o b e n i t o s t o p th e in v e s t i g a t io n in t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a t S C M . S o t h a t i s o n th e 5 M a y a c c o r d in g to Page 122 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 B r i g a d ie r K e m p s o m e th r e e a b i t w e e k s p r i o r t o t h e b e n e f it o f t h e b ir t h d a y p a r ty. A n d t h e n t h e r e is o n g o i n g d a t e s w h i c h I h a v e e x tr a c te d fr o m v a r io u s a ffi d a v i t s w h e r e o n t h e 8 M a y M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s a ls o t o l d t o s t o p th e in v e s ti g a t io n . S o C h a ir t h is ju s t – t h e p u r p o s e o f t h is w a s a n ti c i p a t i o n o f t e s t if y i n g i n a c r i m i n a l t r i a l t o b e a b le t o s h o w w h e n r e f e r r i n g t o d a te s w h e n a b e n e f i t w a s r e c e iv e d a n d it w a s t h r o u g h o u t t h e p e r io d t h a t p e o p le in S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t w e r e r e c e i v i n g b e n e fi ts o r w e r e i n a p o s i t i o n to b e a b l e t o s t o p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n b e i n g th e Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r. Th e y w e r e r e c e iv in g 10 b e n e fi ts r ig h t a r o u n d t h e t i m e th e y t o o k v a r io u s a c t io n s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M r W h i te w o u l d y o u m i n d d e a li n g a ls o w it h the… C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w is h th e w r i ti n g o n T S W 3 w a s b i g g e r t h a n i t i s b u t m a y b e th a t c a n b e s o r te d o u t l a t e r ? M a y b e n o t . M R W H I T E : C h a ir w e c o u l d … C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d h e l p . M R W H I T E : I c o u l d p r e p a r e a n o t h e r c o p y w i t h b ig g e r w r i t in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t w o u l d b e v e r y h e lp f u l . T h a n k y o u . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr W h i t e if y o u c o u l d ju s t a ls o d e a l w i th th e 20 e n tr y d a t e t h e 1 0 M a y 2 0 1 0 a ls o i n th e p i n k ? A t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e . M R W H I T E : C h a i r th a t i s – t h a t w a s a g a i n fr o m – f r o m M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w h o r e c e iv e d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w h e r e I h a v e s ta t e d h e r e t h a t P C N g o b e i s t a t e d d ir e c t l in e s w i th h e a d o ffi c e i n r e q u e s t o f – q u e s t f o r c e r t a i n in f o r m a t io n s h o u l d b e te r m in a t e d . t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . Page 123 of 148 Booysen again told to stop 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir M r W h i te d e a ls w i th t h e s e a ffi d a v i t u p o n w h ic h h e r e l ie s h e r e in h is r e p o r t a t p a g e 3 2 7 s t a r ti n g a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 0 7 7 . I d o n o t k n o w i f i t is n e c e s s a r y to g o t o t h o s e a ff id a v i ts u n l e s s y o u w o u l d l ik e m e t o ta k e y o u th e r e ? CHAIRPERSON: W e l l i f – i f i t is – i f i t ju s t c o n f ir m s w h a t h e h a s a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t is – w e d o n o t n e e d to . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e – y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d fo r th e r e c o r d w h e r e it 10 is t o b e f o u n d . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. N o w w e k n o w t h a t M r Panday has made several m i ll io n s of rands p r o fi t fr o m these tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d r e la t iv e ly s p e a k i n g i n p a r ti c u l a r w i t h r e g a r d t o M a jo r G e n e r a l P il la y th e a m o u n ts p a i d a r e – w e ll t h e a m o u n t p a id t o h i m i s s m a ll , i t is R 1 5 0 0 .0 0 f o r a c a r h ir e . I n th a t r e s p e c t I w o u l d l ik e t o r e fe r y o u to a m o n e y fl o w c h a r t p r e p a r e d b y y o u . I t is A n n e x u r e T S W 2 . I t is E x h i b i t R R 4 b f o r B e t ty a t p a g e 5 1 2 . MR WHITE: C h a ir th is – t h i s d ia g r a m i s e ffe c tiv e ly s u m m a r is e s t h e fl o w o f th e m o n e y t h a t w a s e i t h e r p a id b y t h e p o lic e o r t o t h e e x te n t I 20 c o u l d d e t e r m i n e w h a t w a s d o n e b y i t – b y M r P a n d a y ’s e n t i ti e s . C h a ir I a p o lo g i s e a g a in i t i s q u i t e s m a l l b u t q u i te d i ff ic u l t t o f i t t h e in f o r m a t io n onto one page. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M R W H I T E : C h a ir o n th e v e r y le f t i n b l u e w e h a v e t h e S A P S a n d t h e n fl o w i n g fr o m th a t i f o n e m o v e s to th e r i g h t I h a v e s u m m a r is e d a ll th e Page 124 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p a y m e n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e t o th e d i ff e r e n t P a n d a y e n t i ti e s . C h a ir i f o n e a d d s t h o s e a ll u p i f w e l o o k a t t h e b o tt o m j u s t b e lo w – b e t w e e n th e b l u e a n d t h e y e l lo w b o x e s is a n a m o u n t o f R 4 7 3 4 6 5 9 7 . 0 0 . Th e la s t n u m b e r o n t h e l e f t h a n d s id e o f t h e p a g e . C h a ir t h a t w a s th e to t a l a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a i d b y th e p o li c e t o t h e v a r i o u s P a n d a y e n t it i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Over a period of ten months? M R W H I T E : C h a ir y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r le s s N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . MR WHITE: Even maybe just … 10 CHAIRPERSON: 2009 to? M R W H I T E : To A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: August 2010? M R W H I T E : J a s o a p p r o x i m a te ly t w o m o n t h s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E: Sorry ten months. C h a ir th a t t h e n to t h e e x t e n t I c o u ld tr a c k e d th e fl o w s o f th e m o n e y. I d o n o t s u m m a r i s e o n h e r e p a y m e n ts t o s u p p li e r s b u t I c a n s h o w C h a ir is th a t t h e b l u e l i n e s ju s t to th e r i g h t o f t h o s e y e l lo w b o x e s a r e m o n i e s th a t h a v e f lo w e d b e t w e e n th e d i ff e r e n t P a n d a y e n t it i e s . J u s t t o r e f e r t o t h e m c o l lo q u e l ly a s th a t a n d 20 it is – C h a ir it is m il li o n s o f R a n d s . I t is n o t li k e i t w a s a s m a ll p a y m e n t . S o th o s e a r e m o n ie s t h a t a r e – fl o w e d fr o m t h e e n t i ti e s d o w n t h e b o t t o m p r e d o m i n a n tl y u p t o G o l d C o a s t . C h a ir t h e r e i s t h e n s ig n if ic a n t p a y m e n t s t h a t c o m e o u t o f G o ld C o a s t a n d fl o w to v a r io u s b a n k s a c c o u n ts c o n tr o ll e d b y Mr P a n d a y o r h is w i f e . C h a ir t h a t w o u ld e ffe c tiv e l y m e a n th a t a ll th o s e p a y m e n ts w o u l d b e p r o f it s t h a t h a v e Page 125 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 b e e n m a d e b y th e e n t i ty b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t u s e d t o p a y t h e s u p p li e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a m o u n ts t h a t w e n t t o m e m b e r s o f t h e S A P S l e a v e o u t t h e m o n e y f o r t h e b ir t h d a y p a r ty fo r t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s husband. T h e o th e r p e o p l e w a s th a t – i s t h a t b a s e d o n t r a c i n g t h e a m o u n ts t h a t w e r e p a i d f r o m t h e s e e n ti t ie s in t o t h e ir b a n k a c c o u n ts o r h o w w a s t h a t e s t a b l is h e d ? M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir – s o C h a ir t h o s e p a y m e n ts w e r e a lw a y s t o s u p p li e r s . S o t h e y w e r e n o t – t h e p o l ic e o ffi c i a l s w e r e n o t p a id in c a s h . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: S o t h a t C h a ir if o n e l o o k s a t t h e – th e f a r r i g h t o f t h i s d i a g r a m w e h a v e t h e p o l ic e o ff ic i a ls a s i n P i ll a y, M a d h o e a n d N a r a i n p e r s h a d a n d i f o n e w o r k s b a c k w a r d s y o u c a n t h e n tr a c e w h e r e t h e – t h e p a y m e n ts a c t u a ll y c a m e f r o m . Which accounts of Mr P a n d a y ’s w e r e u s e d t o p a y t h e s u p p li e r s f o r th e b e n e fi ts t h a t t h e p o li c e o ffic i a ls r e c e iv e d ? A n d w e c a n t h e n t r a c e t h a t m o n e y b a c k t o s h o w t h a t it o r i g in a t e d w i t h th e p o lic e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o w h a t I a m a s k i n g i s , h o w d i d y o u e s t a b l is h t h a t th e y r e a c h e d t h e p o l ic e o ff ic i a l c o n c e r n e d ? 20 M R W H I T E: W e l l C h a ir i n a l l i n s t a n c e s t h e y b o u g h t t h e m h o t e l a c c o m m o d a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: T h e o n e t h a t – t h a t w a s fl o w n t o C a p e To w n o r R i c h a r d s B a y o r t h a t s t a y e d i n a h o t e l t h a t I w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d . B u t I t h o u g h t t h a t p a r t o f t h is w a s j u s t c a s h . MR WHITE: N o C h a ir t h a t – th a t a m o u n t th e r e w a s – t h e r e w a s n o Page 126 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 cash. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is – i t is t h e m o n e ta r y v a l u e … MR WHITE: Of the… C H A I R P E R S O N : O f w h a t e v e r b e n e fi t w a s g iv e n to t h e m . M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W h e t h e r i t is a tr i p o r a tr a d e m e a l o r a n y th in g lik e that. M R W H I T E : O r a c a r o r u n iv e r s it y e d u c a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, o k a y. 10 M R W H I T E : S o t h i s w a s a c t u a l b e n e f it s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir w h a t – w h a t d i d h a p p e n a n d w h a t – b e c a u s e o n e lo o k s a t t h e a m o u n t s t h a t w e r e p a i d t o t h e p o li c e o ffi c i a l s a n d o n e s a y s it is l e s s t h a n R 2 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d th e t o t a l p r o c u r e m e n t w a s R 4 7 m i ll i o n . I t lo o k s p r e t ty s m a l l . B u t C h a ir w h a t – w h a t d i d h a p p e n in t h is p r o c e s s if o n e l o o k s a t t h a t d ia g r a m i n t h e m i d d l e a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e t h e r e i s t h r e e a m o u n t s t h a t r e f e r t o c h e q u e s th a t w e r e c a s h e d . S o M r P a n d a y c a s h e d c h e q u e s w i th a to t a l v a lu e o f R 3 . 7 m il li o n . I do not know what happened to that cash. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W o u ld th a t h a v e b e e n a t t h e s a m e ti m e o r within a few days of each other? M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s o v e r t h e p e r io d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : A n d i t w a s a l l a s a r e s u l t o f r e c e iv i n g m o n e y fr o m th e – t h a t w a s p a i d b y th e p o li c e . Page 127 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR WHITE: So some of that money was … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : G o l d C o a s t th e n w r o t e o u t c a s h c h e q u e s a n d t h e y c a s h e d them. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR WHITE: I do not know what happened to that cash. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: B u t i t – f o r a b u s in e s s t h a t i s b u y in g g o o d s fr o m a p p r o v e d 10 s u p p li e r s d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e w h y M r P a n d a y w o u ld n o w n e e d s u c h a h i g h a m o u n t o f c a s h i n a p e r i o d o f e i g h t m o n th s – h e h a d R 3 .7 m il li o n worth of cash. CHAIRPERSON: O t h e r w is e h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n tr a n s fe r r i n g m o n e y fr o m t h e a c c o u n t s o f th e s e e n t it i e s i n to h is o w n a c c o u n t – a c c o u n t s i f he need – if he needed? M R W H I T E : C h a ir h e h a d a lr e a d y t r a n s f e r r e d w e ll o v e r R 1 0 m il li o n t o h is w if e a n d h is p e r s o n a l b a n k a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o in a d d i ti o n t o th a t t h e r e is R 3 . 7 m il li o n c a s h . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r W h it e a t p a g e 5 0 8 o f y o u r r e p o r t it is E x h i b i t R R 4 a y o u d e a l w i t h t h e l o s s e s s u ff e r e d b y t h e S A P S a n d y o u p o s t u la t e a n u m b e r o f s c e n a r i o s . I f y o u w o u l d n o t m i n d t a k i n g t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h o s e s c e n a r i o s C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e d id y o u s a y t h a t is ? Page 128 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 5 0 8 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 508? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is R R 4 a ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. MR WHITE: C h a ir t h e – b e c a u s e o f th e m a n n e r i n w h i c h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t h a d b e e n d o n e a n d t h e w a y in w h i c h M r P a n d a y v i a G o ld C o a s t in v o ic e d t h e p o lic e w a s n o t p o s s i b l e i n a l l i n s ta n c e s t o tr a c e b a c k a s p e c i f ic G o l d C o a s t i n v o ic e b a c k t o a n o r d e r b e c a u s e th e o r d e r 10 w a s j u s t a h u g e a m o u n t o r b a c k t o a s p e c i fi c s u p p l ie r. B u t C h a ir w h a t I – I c o u l d d o is I c o u l d d e t e r m i n e in s ta n c e s w h e r e s e r v i c e s w e r e n e v e r p r o v i d e d o r I c a lc u la t e d t h e a m o u n t a t w h i c h t h e y w e r e p r o v id e d a b o v e t h e c o s t p r ic e . C h a ir a n d m a y b e j u s t b e fo r e o r m a y b e j u s t to s t a r t w i th – w i th s c e n a r i o 1 a t t h e t o p o f p a g e 5 0 8 . S o th a t – a n d t h is o n ly r e l a t e s t o th e W o r l d C u p a c c o m m o d a t io n p r o v id e d b y M r P a n d a y a n d G o l d C o a s t. S o s c e n a r i o 1 I h a v e d e s c r i b e d a s t h e c a l c u l a t i o n o f t h e v a l u e o f o v e r s t a te d i n v o ic e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r s t a te d i n v o ic e s d o e s th a t m e a n in f la t e d ? M R W H I T E : I n fl a te d C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R W H I T E: S o C h a i r t h a t a m o u n t o f R 4 9 6 8 7 7 5 . 4 7 C h a ir th a t is e ffe c tiv e l y w h e r e G o l d C o a s t c h a r g e d t h e p o li c e f o r 5 2 8 7 n i g h t s o f a c c o m m o d a ti o n where no p o l ic e o ffic ia l was booked in t o the a c c o m m o d a ti o n . S o w h a t t h e y d i d C h a ir a n d I w il l c o m e b a c k t o e x p la i n a s p e c i fic e x a m p l e . I f G o l d C o a s t p a i d f o r 2 0 n ig h ts th e y b i ll e d t h e Page 129 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 p o li c e f o r 2 3 . Th e y j u s t in f la t e d th e ir in v o ic e . A n d C h a ir t h a t n u m b e r h a s b e e n p r o v e d b y g o i n g b a c k to t h e s u p p l ie r s t o s a y h o w m a n y n i g h t s d i d G o l d C o a s t b u y fr o m y o u a n d w h e n w e tr a c k i t b a c k w e t a k e th e n i g h t s – t h e ir i n v o ic e w h a t t h e y w e r e p a i d b y G o l d C o a s t a n d t h e n ta k e w h a t G o l d C o a s t b il le d th e p o lic e . C h a ir i t s o u n d s l ik e i t is i m p o s s i b le b u t o n c e a g a i n G o l d C o a s t a c tu a lly k e p t a r e c o r d o f th is a n d t h e y d id i t o n p u r p o s e C h a ir. A n d C h a ir m a y b e – I th in k w e m is s e d t h is e a r li e r C h a ir b u t i f I c o u ld g o t o p a g e … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is 4 9 1 . 10 MR WHITE: W e ll C h a ir m a y b e j u s t m y a ffi d a v it i t is p r o b a b l y e a s i e r C h a ir. I t is a t p a g e 1 5 o f m y a ff id a v i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t ? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m t h e r e . M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir th is a g a i n c o m e s b a c k t o t h e b o o k s t h a t a r e p r e p a r e d b y M r P a n d a y ’s s e c r e t a r y w r i ti n g d o w n w h a t s h e d o e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: Th e r e w a s a s e c o n d b o o k th a t r e la t e d t o t h e S o c c e r W o r l d C u p a n d C h a ir i n t h a t b o o k t h e r e i s a n e x a m p le a t t h e to p o f p a g e 1 5 o f 20 o n e o f t h e it e m s t h a t s h e h a s r e c o r d e d . A n d th is w a s p r e p a r e d b y s u p p li e r o f a c c o m m o d a t i o n t o G o ld C o a s t . S o w e h a v e a d a te c o l u m n , w e t h e n h a v e tr u e s t a y a n d t h e n w e h a v e G o l d C o a s t c h a r g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t i s li k e a tr u e s t a y a n d f a l s e s t a y ? M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r tr u e s t a y w e c o u l d tr a c e b a c k to t h e s u p p l i e r o f t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n . Page 130 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : W h a t t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly p a id a n d t h e n G o ld C o a s t c h a r g e w e c a n tr a c e b a c k t o t h e G o l d C o a s t i n v o i c e t o th e p o li c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o t h e n o n th e 6 J u n e 2 0 1 0 t h e t r u e s t a y is 4 8 m e m b e r s , t h e G o ld C o a s t c h a r g e s 6 0 m e m b e r s . So on that day for that one s u p p li e r t h e y c h a r g e d 1 2 e x t r a n i g h ts . C h a ir a n d t h e a v e r a g e … CHAIRPERSON: O h t h is i s w h a t t h i s m e a n s . S o i t m e a n s t h a t th e c o r r e c t p o s i ti o n is th a t 4 8 m e m b e r s s ta y e d in w h a t e v e r a c c o m m o d a ti o n 10 but they charged for 60 members? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y w r i te i t d o w n . M R W H I T E : Th e y w r i te i t d o w n . A n d C h a ir t h a t w a s th e n tr a c e d b a c k t o a ll th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: E i th e r t o t h e G o ld C o a s t i n v o i c e t o t h e p o l ic e o r t o t h e d i ff e r e n t s u p p li e r s t o G o l d C o a s t o f t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n . And once a g a in C h a ir t h e p o l ic e w e n t a n d g o t a ff i d a v i ts f r o m a ll th e s e p e o p l e a n d t h e ir s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n ts . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR WHITE: I n s o m e in s t a n c e s t h e n u m b e r o f n i g h t s t h a t G o l d C o a s t w e r e c h a r g i n g fo r – t h e n u m b e r o f r o o m s e x c e e d e d th e s iz e o f t h e – a n d s o m e o f t h e s e w e r e s m a ll e s ta b lis h m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: E x c e e d e d s o th e y b i ll e d f o r r o o m s t h a t j u s t d o n o t e x is t Page 131 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 n e v e r m i n d w e r e n o t b o o k e d f o r t h e p o l ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e y c o u ld s a y f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e i n l o d g e A o n th e 20 January or let us go to 2010. On the 6 June 2010 10 members s t a y e d t h e r e b u t o n ly to fi n d t h a t w h e n y o u g o t h e r e t h e lo d g e o n ly h a s fi v e r o o m s . Is t h a t th e k i n d o f t h i n g y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A b e t te r e x a m p le m a y b e t o s a y i t h a s fo u r r o o ms C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d e v e n i f t h e r e w a s tw o p e o p le p e r r o o m i t o n ly c o m e s 10 t o e ig h t . B u t t h e y b il le d fo r t e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( C h a i r n o t s p e a k in g i n t o m ic r o p h o n e ) . MR WHITE: C o r r e c t C h a i r a n d t h e – t h e o w n e r s o f t h e d i ff e r e n t e s t a b li s h m e n ts h a v e p r o v i d e d s t a t e m e n ts , a ff id a v i ts t o t h e p o l ic e c o n fir m i n g e x a c tly w h a t t h e y w e r e p a i d f o r b y G o l d C o a s t b a s e d o n t h e n u m b e r o f p e o p l e t h a t s ta y e d th e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir t h a t – in th a t – a n d i t is a q u i te a l a r g e a n a ly s is b u t o n c e th a t w h o l e a n a ly s is i s d o n e i t s h o w s t h a t t h e r e i s 5 2 8 7 n ig h ts t h a t w e r e c h a r g e d t o t h e p o l ic e w h e r e n o p o li c e m e m b e r s t a y e d i n t h e 20 a c c o m m o d a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: A n d C h a ir w h a t I d i d w a s I c a lc u l a t e d a n a v e r a g e p r ic e f o r a l l t h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n s . S o b a s e d o n th e n u m b e r o f r o o ms c o m p a r e d t o w h a t G o l d C o a s t c h a r g e d a n d t h e a v e r a g e p r i c e is R 9 3 9 . 8 1 . S o th a t p r i c e m u l t ip li e d b y th e 5 2 8 7 g iv e s y o u y o u r R 4 .9 m il li o n . S o th a t w a s Page 132 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t h e – t h e fi r s t a n d p r o b a b ly m o s t b l a ta n t a m o u n t . C h a ir i t is j u s t d i d n o t e x is t s o y o u a r e b il l e d f o r a s e r v i c e t h a t w a s n o t p r o v i d e d . The s e c o n d s c e n a r i o C h a ir w a s w h e r e t h e y o v e r c h a r g e d b a s e d o n t h e in c o r r e c t t a r i ff . S o w h e n th e o r d e r w a s g iv e n to G o l d C o a s t a n d G o l d C o a s t q u o t e d . T h e y s a i d w e w i ll c h a r g e R 8 5 0 . 0 0 a n i g h t . T h e y a c t u a ll y c h a r g e d a s I s a i d o n a v e r a g e R 9 3 9 . 0 0 a n ig h t . C h a i r t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n th o s e tw o a m o u n ts m u l ti p l i e d b y t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n p r o v i d e d w h ic h i s 2 2 5 4 8 n ig h ts w i ll g iv e y o u t h a t – t h e R 2 m il li o n o v e r c h a r g e . S o t h a t R 2 m il li o n i s o n p a g e – s o r r y o n p a g e 5 0 8 . S c e n a r i o 2 . S o t h a t 10 R 2 m i ll io n i s th e d i ff e r e n c e in p r ic e b e tw e e n w h a t G o l d C o a s t q u o t e d and the average price they charged. C h a ir t h e r e is t h e n th e i s s u e o f h o w m u c h w a s p a id t o G o ld C o a s t a s a r e s u l t … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d these scenarios you have put in here. Scenario 1 is where it says c a l c u l a ti o n o f t h e v a l u e o f o v e r s t a t e d i n v o i c e s . I s j u s t t h e to t a l a m o u n t o f i n f l a t e d i n v o i c e s , is th a t r i g h t? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d s c e n a r i o 2 c a l c u l a t io n o f o v e r c h a r g e b a s e d o n in c o r r e c t ta r i ff u s e d b y G o ld C o a s t Tr a d i n g . Th e in c o r r e c t t a r i ff w o u l d 20 h a v e b e e n ta r i ff p r o v i d e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o C h a ir t h e y … CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d b y t h e s u p p li e r. MR WHITE: So the… CHAIRPERSON: B u t th e s u p p li e r p r o v i d e d t h e m w it h a c o r r e c t t a r i ff Page 133 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 b u t th e y r e p r e s e n t t o t h e S A P S t h a t t h e t a r i ff w a s a h ig h e r o n e w h e n in fact that was not the case? M R W H I T E : N o t q u i t e C h a ir t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t q u i te – o k a y. M R W H I T E : T h e ta r i ff w a s t h e p r ic e G o l d C o a s t q u o t e d t h e p o l ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E: S o G o l d C o a s t q u o t e d t h e p o l ic e R 8 5 0 . 0 0 a n i g h t . T h a t is w h a t t h e o r d e r w a s b a s e d o n . T h e y th e n c h a r g e d R 9 3 0 .3 9 a n i g h t . S o t h e y c h a r g e d a t a h i g h e r r a t e p e r n i g h t t h a n th e a p p r o v e d o r d e r w a s 10 f o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R W H I T E : S o t h a t w h e n I r e f e r to a n i n c o r r e c t ta r i ff . CHAIRPERSON: S o th a t is n o w e v e n a b o v e t h e ir o w n q u o t a ti o n a s i t w e r e t a r i ff ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. A n d t h a t i s s o m e t h in g t h a t s o m e b o d y w o r k i n g in C o l o n e l M a d h o e ’s s e c ti o n o r u n i t e it h e r C o l o n e l M a d h o e o r s o m e b o d y e ls e s h o u l d h a v e p i c k e d u p ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a i r t h a t is th e fi r s t s t e p . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t o c h e c k ja . M R W H I T E : I n a p p r o v i n g a p a y m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R W H I T E : Is t o v o u c h i t b a c k t o y o u r o r d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u ld th e r e h a v e b e e n s o m a n y in s ta n c e s l ik e t h a t o n e t h a t o n e m ig h t b e t e m p t e d t o t h i n k t h a t i t w a s n o t n e g l ig e n c e Page 134 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 in t e r m s o f j u s t t h e o n e w h e r e th e t a r i ffs a r e h i g h e r ? I m e a n w e k n o w b a s e d o n w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t e v e n t h o u g h w e w il l h e a r w h a t t h e y h a v e t o s a y th a t i t l o o k s lik e i t w a s a s c h e m e b u t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r – o n e w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e s a i d n o , n o b u t p u t i t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e ta r i ff t h a t is o n o u r r e c o r d s . I f y o u d o i t a b o v e t h a t t a r i ff I c a n n o t a p p r o v e i t b e c a u s e h o w w il l I j u s t if y a p p r o v i n g i t t o my superiors. MR WHITE: Chair that would be the common sense answer but if one lo o k s a t th is , t h is h a p p e n e d t e n y e a r s a g o a n d n o th i n g h a s h a p p e n e d t o 10 date. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t I w a s a s k i n g w a s t h a t – w a s w h e th e r th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n i s o la t e d i n s ta n c e s w h e r e a G o l d C o a s t c l a i m e d s o m e t h i n g e v e n a b o v e t h e ir o w n t a r i ff o r w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e m a n y s u c h in s t a n c e s ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir th e r e w e r e m a n y. CHAIRPERSON: There were many? M R W H I T E : N o i t w a s n o t j u s t o n e o r t w o t h a t t h e y d id t h a t t h i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E: B e c a u s e t o c h a n g e th e a v e r a g e b y s o m u c h y o u h a v e g o t 20 t o d o i t a l m o s t c o n s is te n tl y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y th a n k y o u . W a s y o u – d i d y o u r e a c h t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t i t i s n o t a q u e s ti o n t h a t i t w a s n o t p i c k e d u p . I t w a s a c c e p te d b e c a u s e t h a t w a s p a r t o f th e w r o n g d o i n g o n t h e p a r t o f m a y b e C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d w h o e v e r w a s w o r k i n g w i th h i m o r y o u d id n o t r e a c h – y o u d id n o t g o t h a t f a r ? Page 135 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 M R W H I T E : C h a ir I d id n o t g o t h a t f a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M R W H I T E : I fe l t t h a t w a s t h e c o u r t ’s to m a k e t h a t c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ye s n o b u t fr o m y o u r o w n – fr o m y o u r o w n o b s e r v a t i o n th e r e is a c h a n c e o f b e i n g – o f b e i n g a b le to s a y, b u t t h e r e is n o w a y h o w a n y b o d y t h r o u g h n e g li g e n c e c a n n o t p i c k t h i s u p w h e n i t h a s h a p p e n e d s o o f te n . I t h a s g o t t o h a v e b e e n d e li b e r a te . Th e r e is a chance of saying, look I am not sure you know maybe if they are too b u s y, m a y b e y o u k n o w i t w a s n e g l i g e n c e o r i n c o m p e t e n c e th a t is w h a t I 10 was asking? M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I d i d n o t g o t h a t f a r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A lr i g h t. ( I n d is t i n c t) a s y o u s i t h e r e a n d y o u h a v e h a d m a n y y e a r s o f r e f le c ti n g o n y o u r r e p o r t if th e y w e r e t o s a y in r e g a r d t o th o s e w h o w e r e G o l d C o a s t c h a r g e d e v e n a t a r a t e a b o v e t h e ir o w n ta r i ff . I f t h e y w e r e t o s a y n o . I t w a s o v e r s i g h t . W o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o a c c e p t t h a t k i n d o f e x p l a n a ti o n ? M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t ? MR WHITE: No. 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t i s - t h a t i s p a r tl y b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e s o many of them? M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a i r a n d it is - i t is t h e f ir s t - i t a n o b v i o u s s te p to n o r m a l ly ta k e in - in a p p r o v i n g a n a m o u n t f o r p a y m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR WHITE: B e c a u s e y o u c o n fir m - c o m p a r e i t b a c k t o w h a t y o u Page 136 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ordered. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R W H I T E : A n d t h e r e w o u l d b e a s i g n i f ic a n t p r o c e s s t o g o t h r o u g h t o now pay more than the order amount. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d M r W h i t e d o y o u b e li e v e t h a t t h e r e r e a s o n a b ly c o u l d h a v e b e e n ju s t m o r e t h a n R 2 m ill i o n w o r t h o f m is t a k e s ? MR WHITE: 10 N o C h a ir. C h a i r th e n s c e n a r i o t h r e e is w h e r e I h a v e c a l c u l a te d t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n w h a t w a s p a id b y G o ld C o a s t t o t h e ir s u p p li e r a n d th e R 8 5 0 , 0 0 a p r i c e th a t th e y s h o u ld h a v e b e e n s u p p l y i n g t h e p o l ic e . S o t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h o s e tw o p r i c e s is - is j u s t i n e x c e s s o f R 1 2 m il li o n . S o G o ld C o a s t m a d e a p r o fi t u p t o t h e a m o u n t t h a t th e o r d e r w a s p l a c e d t o t h e m o f R 1 2 .3 m i ll io n . T h e y t h e n o v e r b i ll e d b y R 2 m il li o n a b o v e th e a m o u n t o f th e o r d e r a n d th e n a d d i t io n to t h a t b il le d R 4 . 9 m il li o n f o r a c c o m m o d a t io n j u s t n o t p r o v i d e d . S o C h a ir y o u w o u l d t o c a lc u l a t e t h e p r e ju d i c e y o u w o u l d a d d a l l t h r e e t o g e t h e r. C h a ir, b u t i n t h e i n te r e s t o f b e in g f a i r w h e n G o l d C o a s t w e r e 20 n e g o ti a ti n g w i th t h e p o l ic e a s a s u p p l i e r t h e y s a i d th e y d o n o t o w n a c c o m m o d a ti o n . T h e y o w n a c c o m m o d a t i o n b r o k e r a n d t h a t t h e y c h a r g e a 20 percent profit margin above what they purchase the a c c o m m o d a ti o n a t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o i f w e c a n j u s t s to p t h e r e s o th a t I - I c a n ju s t s h o w th a t t o th e C h a ir. Yo u d e a l w i th G o l d C o a s t ’s l e t t e r o f Page 137 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 2 2 O c to b e r 2 0 0 9 o n p a g e 1 9 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h a t p a g e n u m b e r a g a in ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 197 Chair in EXHIBIT RR4A. CHAIRPERSON: 1-9-7? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s C h a ir a n d t h i s r e f e r s to G o l d C o a s t ’s le t t e r d a t e d 2 2 O c to b e r 2 0 0 9 w h i c h o n t h e f o ll o w i n g p a g e y o u s a y : “ P a r a g r a p h 2 o f t h is le t t e r is i n r e s p o n s e t o p a r a g r a p h 2 o f S A P S le t t e r w h e r e i n th e fo ll o w i n g is recorded.” 10 I f y o u c o u l d j u s t d e a l w it h th a t . MR WHITE: C h a ir, t h i s w a s a - a d o c u m e n t fo u n d i n G o l d C o a s t ’s r e c o r d s b y th e p o li c e a n d i t s a y s a m o n g s t o th e r s : “ T h e o r d e r m u s t b e is s u e d t o G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g . G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g is a v e n d o r f o r th e S A P S w i t h a v e n d o r n u m b e r ( p le a s e s e e A n n e x u r e C ) . note that Gold Coast is in Please business of a c c o m m o d a ti o n b r o k i n g . W e d e a l w i t h v a r io u s hotels in the Durban area. We have block booked h o t e l s fo r t h e W o r ld C u p . T h is w a s d o n e a r o u n d i n 20 2 0 0 8 . W e a r e g o in g to p l a c e a p p r o x i m a te ly 2 0 0 0 0 p e o p l e fo r t h i s e v e n t . ” A n d w i th r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 5 : “ R e g is tr a ti o n w i t h t h e S A P S a n d v e n d o r n u m b e r. O u r c o m p a n y w o r k s o n a p r o fi t m a r g i n o f 2 0 p e r c e n t gross.” Page 138 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 S o c h a i r t h is i s o n e d o c u m e n t . T h e o t h e r d o c u m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n w r i t t e n t o t h e p o l ic e w h e r e t h e y r e f e r to t h e m s e l v e s a s m a k i n g a 2 0 p e r c e n t p r o fi t . S o t o ju s t - a c o u p le o f o th e r p o i n t s a b o u t t h is l e t te r. I n a l l t h e s u p p li e r s t h a t w e r e i n te r v i e w e d b y t h e p o lic e th a t u l ti m a t e ly p r o v i d e d a c c o m m o d a t io n to G o l d C o a s t . T h e y s a i d th e r e w a s n o b l o c k b o o k e d a c c o m m o d a ti o n . So - so Gold Coast did not have … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d i d n o t e x i s t? D i d - d id i t e x is t b e fo r e i n 2 0 0 8 Gold Coast? 10 M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t o m y r e c o ll e c t io n G o l d C o a s t h a d b e e n a r o u n d fo r a number of years. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: (Intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t m ig h t h a v e e x is te d ? M R W H I T E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : I th i n k i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t d id n o t m a k e t h a t b l o c k b o o k i n g ? MR WHITE: Did not make the bookings. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : S o to s a y t h e y h a d b o o k in g s f o r 2 0 0 0 0 p e o p l e . Th a t w a s n o t tr u e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: B e c a u s e a ll t h e s u p p li e r s th e y u lt i m a t e ly u s e d t o s u p p ly t h e p o li c e . N o n e o f t h e m s a i d i t w a s p r e b o o k e d . Page 139 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : E v e n in e a r l y 2 0 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR WHITE: It was not prebooked. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i f o n e a ll o w s th e m b e s t c a s e s c e n a r io f o r th e m a 2 0 p e r c e n t p r o fi t m a r g i n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : T h i s in v o lv e d - th e p o l ic e w e r e t o l d th e y w e r e m a k in g th e 10 20 percent. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d i d th e y - w h e n th e y g a v e a q u o t a ti o n b e fo r e t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d d i d th e y t a l k a b o u t t h is 2 0 p e r c e n t ? M R W H I T E : T h e y d i d i n s o m e o f t h e ir d o c u m e n t a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id in s o m e o f th e i r d o c u m e n t a ti o n ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n t h e y w e r e s e n d i n g in v o ic e s ? I m e a n w h e n t h e y w e r e … M R W H I T E : N o , n o . S o b e fo r e w h e n t h e y w e r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e . 20 M R W H I T E : R e g a r d i n g q u o ta t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR WHITE: In the April and the May before the World Cup … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R W H I T E : T h e y s a id w e m a k e a 2 0 p e r c e n t m a r g in . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t - t h e p e o p le w e r e to - t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n w a s Page 140 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 b a s ic a lly g o i n g t o C o lo n e l M a d h o e ? M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. MR WHITE: So Chair if one goes back to page 508. All I have done in s c e n a r i o fo u r is I h a v e n o w a s s u m e d t h a t t h e c o s t t o G o l d C o s t i s n o t o r t h e - t h e a m o u n t t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n b ill e d t o t h e p o l ic e s h o u l d b e G o l d C o a s t ’s c o s t p l u s 2 0 p e r c e n t . S o in c a l c u l a ti n g a p r e j u d ic e i t w o u ld e i t h e r b e s c e n a r i o s o n e , tw o a n d th r e e o r o n e , tw o a n d fo u r. S o t h a t w a s j u s t i f th e a r g u m e n t t h e y h a d w a s - w e m a k e i t 2 0 10 percent. We have told you we do. W e ll t h e n th e p r e j u d i c e i s t w o m il li o n l e s s t h a n i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n , b u t it is s ti ll - i t is e it h e r 1 7 m il li o n o r 1 9 m il li o n . S o t h a t - th a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y I - I d i d th a t a d d it i o n a l c a lc u l a ti o n C h a ir. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d fr o m y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o n a v e r a g e w h a t w i ll y o u s a y w e r e th e p r o f i t m a r g i n s b e i n g c h a r g e d ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i t w a s a p p r o x i m a t e l y o n th e - o n th e g o o d s a n d - o n t h e g o o d s t h a t w e r e p r o v id e d i t w a s - t h e y w e r e c h a r g i n g a b o u t t h r e e ti m e s t h e c o s t p r ic e . C h a ir o u t o f th e t o ta l 4 7 m il li o n t h e y m a d e a p p r o x i m a te ly a R 3 0 m il li o n p r o fi t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t h o w m u c h p r o f it ? MR WHITE: 30. CHAIRPERSON: 30? MR WHITE: 30. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir fo r e ig h t m o n t h s o f w o r k … Page 141 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : O n e - o n e c u s to m e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : R 3 0 m i ll io n p r o f i t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . D o y o u h a v e a n y id e a a b o u t h o w G o l d C o a s t w a s p e r f o r m i n g p r i o r t o t h is w i n d f a l l ? M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t ? MR WHITE: I do not. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr W h it e , y o u t e s t if i e d th a t y o u h a v e d o n e a n u m b e r o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . Yo u h a v e a p p e a r e d n u m e r o u s t i m e s in c o u r t . O n t h e b a s i s o f t h e a v a il a b l e d o c u m e n ta r y e v i d e n c e p r o v i d e d to y o u w h a t d o y o u b e li e v e w a s t h e s tr e n g t h o f t h e c a s e a g a in s t t h e s u s p e c ts a n d th e p r o s p e c t s o f s u c c e s s ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir, b a s e d o n m y e x p e r ie n c e t h e d o c u m e n t a r y e v id e n c e in th is c a s e is p r o b a b ly t h e s tr o n g e s t I h a v e e v e r s e e n . The - the d o c u m e n ts s p e a k f o r th e m s e lv e s a n d t h e s u s p e c ts in t h e m a t t e r b e i n g p r i m a r i ly 20 Mr P a n d a y and h is associates kept records of t h e ir w r o n g d o i n g a n d t h o s e r e c o r d s c a n a c t u a l l y b e tr a c e d b a c k t o w h a t th e p o li c e u l ti m a t e l y p a id a n d C h a i r th is is a - a c a s e t h a t c a n b e b a s i c a ll y won on the documents. Yo u a l m o s t d o n o t n e e d w i tn e s s e s , b u t b e c a u s e o f th e f a c t t h a t i t r e l a t e d t o p o l ic e c o r r u p t io n a n d f r a u d . In v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r s w e n t t o g r e a t l e n g t h s - it i s p r o b a b ly th e r ig h t w o r d - t o g e t s t a te m e n ts Page 142 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 fr o m e v e r y p o s s i b l e w it n e s s . S o e v e r y s u p p li e r t h a t p r o v i d e d s e r v i c e s in w h e t h e r i t w a s t h e tr e a d m i ll . W h e t h e r i t w a s a c c o m m o d a t i o n . W h e t h e r i t w a s a G a r m i n o r a g e n e r a t o r. T h e y o b t a in e d s t a te m e n ts fr o m e a c h o f th o s e s u p p li e r s . CHAIRPERSON: have seen W e l l I h a v e n o t r e a d th e r e p o r t - y o u r r e p o r t , b u t I some of the letters and correspondence. Maybe m e m o r a n d u m s I a m n o t s u r e th a t y o u w r o te p a r t ic u l a r ly i n r e g a r d t o r e s p o n d i n g to s o m e o f t h e p r o s e c u to r ’s r e a s o n s fo r n o t - fo r d e c li n i n g to prosecute and they did seem to me what you had to say seems to be 10 q u i te m e t ic u l o u s . I t l o o k s l ik e y o u - y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e e v i d e n c e th a t w a s in v o lv e d i n th is c a s e v e r y w e l l. Yo u w e n t in t o d e t a i ls t o d e a l w i th a l o t o f p o i n ts th a t th e y r a is e . S o - s o - j a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m g o i n g t o s t a r t d e a l in g w i t h th a t n o w C h a ir. Mr W h it e w a s y o u r r e p o r t a n d f in d in g s s e n t to t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i ty ? M R W H I T E : It w a s C h a ir a n d I r e fe r t o t h a t a t p a g e 2 6 o f my a ffi d a v i t at RR4. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 A n d w h o w a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r a s s ig n e d t o t h e case? CHAIRPERSON: Well before you do that. Before you go to that stage. I t h i n k y o u s h o u l d t a k e M r W h i t e t h r o u g h t o th e f in d in g s - if t h e r e a r e a n y f i n d in g s in h i s r e p o r t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h e r e a r e fi n d i n g s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t h e c a n s p e a k to t h o s e f in d i n g s . Page 143 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e w e m o v e f u r t h e r. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. T h e y a r e a t t h e e n d o f h is r e p o r t . T h e y a r e h i s c o n c l u s io n s w h i c h C h a ir y o u w i ll fi n d i n Fi l e R R 4 A a t p a g e 5 - 0 - 3 r i g h t a t t h e b a c k o f th e fi le C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o u l d y o u e x p la in y o u r f in d in g s t o t h e C h a ir please Mr White? M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, w h a t I h a v e s u m m a r is e d u n d e r th e … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R W H I T E : S e c t io n o f m y r e p o r t fr o m p a g e 5 0 3 t h r o u g h t o p a g e 5 1 0 i s e ffe c tiv e l y a s u m m a r y o f - o f m o s t w h a t I h a v e - I h a v e s a i d t o y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d ? M R W H I T E : A lr e a d y s a i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR WHITE: C h a ir, m a y b e j u s t o n e o r tw o i t e ms t h a t I h a v e n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly c o v e r e d . S o i f o n e g o e s t o p a g e 5 0 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l t e l l y o u w h a t I a m l o o k i n g f o r. M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m l o o k i n g - I a m l o o k i n g f o r e v id e n c e . I a m lo o k in g - I w o u l d li k e y o u to ta k e e a c h s u s p e c t i f y o u a r e a b le t o a n d s a y th is is t h e f i n d i n g o r c o n c l u s i o n I r e a c h e d in r e g a r d t o th is f i n d in g a n d if y o u a r e a b l e to g i v e t h e s p e c if ic s , b u t if y o u r r e p o r t i s n o t s tr u c tu r e d i n th a t w a y t h a t is fi n e . Yo u c a n d e a l w i th i t i n a n o t h e r w a y, b e c a u s e y o u s e e t h e - Page 144 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 t h e r e a l i n t e r e s t o f th e C o m m i s s i o n is tw o fo ld . O n e is w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s c o r r u p t io n a n d fr a u d t h a t t o o k p la c e . M a y b e th r e e fo l d . Tw o , h o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t a n d w h o w a s t o b e n e fi t o r w h o w a s b e h i n d t h e w h o l e t h i n g , b u t a ls o w a s t h i s c a s e s tr o n g e n o u g h a g a i n s t t h e v a r i o u s s u s p e c ts f o r th is C o m m is s i o n t o ju s t i fi a b ly s a y a n y p r o s e c u t o r w h o d e c l in e d to p r o s e c u t e th e s u s p e c ts i n th e fa c e o f t h is e v i d e n c e m u s t h a v e r e a c h e d t h a t c o n c l u s i o n b e c a u s e o f s o m e th i n g e l s e . N o t b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e d o in g t h e ir j o b p r o p e r ly a n d n o t b e c a u s e t h e y a r e - t h e y w e r e j u s t m is t a k e n . 10 Not because they just m is s e d s o m e t h i n g , b u t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s s o m e o t h e r a g e n d a . S o - s o t h a t is w h y I a m - I w a n t y o u t o b e a b le t o s p e a k t o t h a t i n r e g a r d t o e a c h s u s p e c t , b u t i t is p o s s ib l e t h a t y o u r r e p o r t i s n o t s tr u c tu r e d i n s u c h a w a y t h a t i t m a k e s i t e a s y f o r y o u t o d o i t t h a t w a y. I n w h ic h c a s e y o u c a n d o - y o u c a n g i v e m e a p ic t u r e in w h a t e v e r w a y is c o n v e n i e n t to y o u . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir, i f I m i g h t b e o f a s s i s t a n c e . I n t h e b o d y o f t h e r e p o r t M r W h i te d o e s - h e d e a ls w i t h e a c h b e n e fi t o b t a i n e d a n d h e m a k e s a fi n d i n g i n h is r e p o r t i n r e s p e c t o f e v e r y b e n e f it a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t I w a n t . 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d p e r h a p s w e c a n g o th r o u g h … CHAIRPERSON: So why do we not go there? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: W e c a n g o t h e r e p e r h a p s w i th s o m e m o r e d e t a i l n o w. P e r h a p s w e c a n s t a r t M r W h i t e . It i s t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e s t a y in P r o t e a H o te l o n p a g e 2 9 8 o f th e r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 145 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o if w e w e n t - I a m j u s t tr y in g to s e e . L e t u s - s o r r y. L e t u s s t a r t a t p a g e 2 9 5 . I w a s g o i n g to t h e s u m m a r y o f t h e fi n d i n g s , b u t y o u c a n s e e t h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h - y o u s a y : “ G i ft t o C a p ta i n N a r a i n p e r s a d . ” Yo u deal with the gift. The a n a ly s is of credit card s t a te m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o . M s W e n tz e l … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n th e fi n d in g s a t p a g e 2 9 8 . CHAIRPERSON: 10 M s W e n tz e l p r e c is e l y w h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o h e r e at 2-9-5. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m w a n t h i m t o t a lk a b o u t - a b o u t th a t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: If you say Captain Narainpersad was given a gift and y o u ta lk a r o u n d t h a t a n d t h e n m o v e o n a n d d e a l w i th a l l t h e s u s p e c t s . I t m a y b e - b e c a u s e I th i n k t h a t u p to n o w y o u m i g h t h a v e m e n ti o n e d that kind of thing on the in passing. I just want to - to understand and f o r w h o e v e r is l is te n in g o r w a t c h i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w i t h r e g a r d t o th e suspect. 20 T h i s w a s th e c a s e a g a i n s t t h e m . W i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t o n e t h i s was the case. and so on. T h is is w h a t t h e y d id w r o n g . T h is is h o w i t h a p p e n e d Yo u a l r e a d y h a v e s o m e w h e r e y o u h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t t h e b e n e fi t a n d t h e p r e j u d ic e . B e n e fi t t o th e s u s p e c ts . P r e j u d ic e t o S A P S . T h a t k i n d o f i n fo r m a t i o n . Is - i s i t g o i n g to b e e a s y o r is i t d i ffic u lt ? MR WHITE: C h a ir, I j u s t n e e d to t r y a n d - i t w il l ta k e s o m e t i m e , Page 146 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 b e c a u s e I ju s t n e e d t o fi n d th e - t h e d i ffe r e n t r e f e r e n c e s , b e c a u s e I w a s not … C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) . M R W H I T E : W a s n o t - I d id n o t p r e p a r e t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u a r e n o t r e a d y fo r th a t ? M R W H I T E : To p r o v i d e t h a t le v e l o f d e t a i l . CHAIRPERSON: O h . O k a y. W e c a n - a r e w e f in is h i n g ? We are not fi n i s h i n g t o d a y w it h h i m . Ar e w e f in is h i n g t o d a y w i t h h i m ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 N o C h a ir. H e i s g o i n g t o t e s ti f y I th i n k t h e w h o le o f t o m o r r o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o w h a t - w h a t w e c a n d o is . To m o r r o w y o u c a n w e c a n r e v is it t h i s is s u e . Yo u ju s t - I j u s t w a n t y o u to b e a b le t o b e a b l e to s a y w i t h r e g a r d t o Pr o v in c i a l C o m m is s io n e r N g o b e n i t h is i s w h a t t h e in v e s ti g a t io n r e v e a l e d h e d i d - s h e d id w r o n g . T h i s is w h a t - t h i s is w h a t t h e y w e r e - t h e p o l ic e w e r e c h a r g i n g h e r w i t h . T h i s is th e c o n d u c t t h a t w a s p r o b le m a t ic . Yo u g o t o C o l o n e l M a d h o e . Yo u g o t o e a c h o n e a n d s o t h a t it is q u i t e c l e a r, b e c a u s e r ig h t n o w - u p t o n o w o n e h a s a n id e a , b u t it n e e d s t o b e - to b e t o l d in a v e r y c l e a r a n d - a n d m e t h o d ic a l w a y. 20 I n y o u r r e p o r t i t m i g h t c o m e o u t l ik e t h a t , b u t s o fa r it h a s n o t c o m e o u t lik e th a t i n o r a l e v i d e n c e . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I d o . I t - i t i s i n t h e r e p o r t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R W H I T E : I n d i ffe r e n t p l a c e s . I w i ll … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R W H I T E : F i n d t h e d i ffe r e n t r e f e r e n c e s t o n ig h t a n d th e n to m o r r o w … Page 147 of 148 20 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 201 ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: that. Ye s . S o - s o t o m o r r o w y o u c a n t h e n ju s t d e a l w i t h Ta k e e a c h o n e a n d - a n d d e a l w it h t h e c a s e a r o u n d t h e m li k e t h a t . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir w o u l d y o u l ik e m e t o c o n ti n u e o r d o y o u p r o p o s e t h a t w e a d j o u r n n o w ? CHAIRPERSON: No. T h a t - t h a t a s p e c t c a n b e d e a l t w i t h t o m o r r o w. W e s t il l h a v e h i m t o - f o r t o m o r r o w a n d th e n a f t e r to m o r r o w i t i s C o l o n e l D u P lo o y. 10 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D u P lo o y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h e n it is t h e a v ia t io n w i tn e s s e s l a t e r in t h e week? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s a n d A d v o c a te M a n y a t h i C h a ir, b u t th a t w i t n e s s w i ll n o t b e t o o lo n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is a s h o r t o n e . J a . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o l e t u s - l e t u s a d j o u r n , b e c a u s e a n y w a y w e a r e a t fiv e to f o u r n o w … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e w i ll c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 1 J A N U A R Y 2 0 2 0 Page 148 of 148