C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

2 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 3 5

22 Woodlands Drive
Irene Woods, Centurion
TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088
MOBILE: 066 513 1757
info@gautengtranscribers.co.za

CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

20 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r P r e t o ri u s, g o o d m o r n i n g
e v e r y b o d y.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : G o o d m o r n i n g , m o r n i n g C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r n i n g . We A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a i r I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u – y o u h a v e a m a t t e r t o d e a l w i t h

f i r st .
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Ye s y o u w i l l r e c a l l l a st w e e k C h a i r i t

w a s a g r e e d t h a t M r S i kh a k h a n e w o u l d a d d r e s s y o u b ri e f l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n r e g a r d t o t h e e vi d e n c e o f t h e

A m b a s sa d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y.
ADV SIKHAKHANE SC:

Thank you Chair with your leave

may I…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV SIKHAKHANE SC: Pull this down?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s t h a n k y o u .
20

A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C :

C h a i r w e a r e ve r y g r a t e f u l f o r t h e

o p p o rt u n i t y y o u g a v e u s.

We k n o w yo u r s c h e d u l e i s t i g h t .

I

re p r e s e n t M r A rt h u r F r a s e r b u t i n o r d e r n o t t o w a st e t i m e I
am also going to – what I am going to say for him applies to
M r M a n z i n i s o t h a t t h e r e i s – t h e re i s n o d i ff e r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay so you – you represent both?
Page 3 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V S I K H A K H A N E S C : I re p r e se n t b o t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C :

At this point for these points I am

g o i n g t o m a k e t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C :

C h a i r t h e j o b i s sl i g h t l y e a s i e r n o w

t h a t m e a n d m y c o l l e a g u e M r P r e t o ri u s h a v e s o rt o f r e s o l v e d
w h a t s e t u s a p a rt .

But the points that we wanted to put on

re c o r d a r e t h e f o l l o w i n g :
10

M r F ra s e r i s p r o b a b l y t h e o n l y w i t n e s s – t h e o n l y
implicated person who has been accused of treason in these
p r o c e e d i n g s.

As the Chair knows he is the former DG of

S t a t e S e c u ri t y A g e n c y a n d h e n e v e r r e c e i v e d o n t h e 2 4 o r –
t o 2 6 N o v e m b e r l a st y e a r 2 0 1 9 w h e n M r N j e n j e c a m e h e r e
i m p l i c a t e d h i m , h e n e ve r re c e i v e d a n y n o t i c e – 3 . 3 N o t i c e .
As it applies now with Mr Maqetuka as well. And we
m a k e t h i s p o i n t t o r e c o r d b e c a u s e a g r e a t d e a l o f e vi d e n c e
w a s g i v e n w h i c h r e l a t e s t o s e r i o u s, v e r y s e ri o u s m a t t e r s.
O r d i n a ri l y M r F r a s e r w o u l d h a v e l i k e d t o d i e w i t h t h e
20

s e cr e t s h e i s g o i n g t o h a v e t o d i s cl o s e t o t h i s – t o t h e s e
proceedings but it is only because he has been accused of
t re a s o n t h a t h e r e l u ct a n t l y c o m e s h e r e .

And he comes here

C h a i r t o c o m p l e t e y o u r p i ct u re o f t h i s t h i n g ca l l e d st a t e
capture.

To c o m p l e t e i t b e c a u s e w h a t t h e C h a i r w a s t o l d

t h a t a t l e a st f r o m t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e p o i n t o f vi e w w h i c h i s n o t
Page 4 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
s o m e t h i n g t h a t o r d i n a ri l y s h o u l d b e d o n e a t a p l a c e l i k e t h i s
i s t h i s.
His

e vi d e n c e

is

going

to

be

i m p o rt a n t

because

b a si c a l l y h e i s g o i n g t o c o m p l e t e t h e p i ct u re f o r C h a i r a b o u t
s e cr e t s o f t h e st a t e s – o f t h i s st a t e a b o u t w h o e x a ct l y i s
s u b ve rt i n g o u r st a t e . A n d h e i s g o i n g t o c o m p l e t e t h e p i ct u r e
b e ca u s e u n l i k e m a n y o t h e r w i t n e s s e s h e i s g o i n g t o h a ve t o
s h a r e t h e s e cr e t s w i t h t h e C h a i r r e l a t i n g n o t j u st t o t h o s e
w h o w e re i n t h e a d m i n i st r a t i ve a r m o f g o v e r n m e n t h e w i l l
10

h a ve t o c o m p l e t e t h i s b y d o i n g s o m e t h i n g h e re l u ct a n t l y d o e s
t o t e l l t h e C h a i r a b o u t t h i n g s t h a t re l a t e t o t h e P r e s i d e n t o r
t h e P r e si d e n t s o f t h i s c o u n t r y p a st a n d p r e se n t , t h a t re l a t e s
t o t h e J u d g e s, t h a t r e l a t e t o t h e P a r l i a m e n t a ri a n s s o t h o s e
t h r e e a r m s b e c a u s e t h e C h a i r w i l l h a ve c o m p l e t e d t h a t w h e n
h e kn o w s w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g t h e r e .
A s I sa i d I h a v e a d vi s e d h i m n o t t o b e c a u s e h e
si g n e d a n o a t h n e v e r t o b u t h e h a s b e e n a c c u s e d o f t re a s o n
n o w.
C h a i r w e h a v e a g r e e d w i t h M r P r e t o ri u s t h a t i t i s

20

cl e a r i t i s n o t d e n i e d t h a t h e w a s n o t s e r v e d w i t h N o t i c e .
T h e a ff i d a vi t h e r e t e l l s y o u t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d t o h i m i s t h a t
a c e rt a i n n u m b e r – i n f a ct t h e a ff i d a vi t s a y s t h i s f r o m P a t ri c k
Mlambo. He says:
“I w a s n e v e r a s k e d t o o b t a i n Mr F ra s e r ’s c o n t a ct d e t a i l s i n
re l a t i o n t o t h e 3 . 3 . ”
Page 5 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
S o i t i s a d m i t t e d b y t h e c o m m i s si o n a t l e a st t h e
s e cr e t a ri a t t h a t h e w a s n e v e r s e r v e d w i t h a l l o f t h e s e s e r i o u s
a c c u sa t i o n s a g a i n st h i m . T h e s a m e a p p l i e s t o M r M a n zi n i .
A n d s o t h e y h a ve cu rt a i l e d t h e d i s p u t e b e ca u s e t h e n
w h a t t h e y d i d w a s t o s e n d t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t i c e n o t j u st t o M r
F r a s e r ’s s o n ’s c e l l n u m b e r b u t t o M r F ra s e r ’s so n ’s w i f e ce l l
n u m b e r w h i ch M r F r a s e r w a n t s t o t a l k a b o u t a t so m e p o i n t
b e ca u s e i t t e l l s y o u a b o u t w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g b e h i n d t h e
s c e n e s t h a t p e o p l e w o u l d h a v e h i s s o n ’s c e l l n u m b e r a n d
10

that is where they served him.
And when they say it was not intentional well recently
t h i s i s a n o t h e r o n e s e n t t o h i m w h e re h e w o r k s n o w.

So the

c o m m i s si o n kn o w s w h e r e h e i s b u t w h e n i t co m e s t o t h e s e
v e r y se ri o u s a c c u s a t i o n s a g a i n st h i m , t h e y d i d n o t k n o w. B u t
t h e y h a v e j u st se n t h i m t h i n g s t h a t re l a t e t o B O S A S A w h e r e
h e i s N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r n o w.
And so what we would ask the Chair to rule on.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n I w a s a b o u t t o s a y I a m s u r p ri s e d

w h y – w h y a n yt h i n g t o b e s e r v e d o n h i m w o u l d b e s e n t t o h i s
20

son

or

whoever

because

is

he

not

kn o w n

to

be

at

C o rr e ct i o n a l S e r vi c e s ?
A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C :

Absolutely I think – I think that is

w h y t h e y s a i d t h e w o r st t h i n g t h a n a s p y i s a n i n e ff i ci e n t s p y.
W h o e ve r h a s t h e n u m b e r s w h a t e v e r t h e y d o w i t h t h e f a m i l y
n u m b e r s o f t h e F ra s e r s d i d n o t k n o w w h i c h – w h i ch n u m b e r
Page 6 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
re l a t e s t o M r F r a s e r.
B u t I t h i n k t h a t h a s b e e n s o rt e d o u t .

What we would

l i k e t h e C h a i r t o r u l e a n d I h a v e ra i s e d t h i s w i t h m y l e a r n e d
f ri e n d , I d o n o t t h i n k h e d e n i e s i t a n d w e t h a n k h i m b e ca u s e
h e h a s c u rt a i l e d t h e j o b a b i t .
I s t h a t w e w o u l d l i k e t h e t i m e f o r M r F r a se r a n d M r
M a n zi n i t o f i l e t h e i r st a t e m e n t s i n re l a t i o n t o M r N j e n j e a n d
in relation to Mr Maqetuka.
A n d a s I h a ve sa i d b e ca u s e M r M a q e t u k a ’s e vi d e n c e
10

i s n o t c o m p l e t e w e a r e t o l d h e w a s c o r r e ct i n g i t a s h e w a s
going we would ask that for both of them there are days for
re a s o n a b l e m a t t e r s r u n a t t h e p o i n t w h e n w e r e c e i v e t h e
f i n a l i s e d a ff i d a vi t o f Mr M a q e t u k a f ro m w h i c h p o i n t w e w i l l
t h e n f i l e a st a t e m e n t w i t h t h e i t e m s t h a t I r e l a t e d t o t h e C h a i r
a n d t h e n i t i s a s e p a r a t e p ro c e s s se e w h e t h e r w e a p p l y t o
c ro s s - e x a m i n e o r c a l l a n y w i t n e s s. B u t w e a r e n o t t h e r e y e t .
We j u st t h i n k t h a t i s w h a t w e w o u l d l i k e t h e C h a i r t o
ru l e .

A n d m o st o f t h e o t h e r d i s p u t e s w e w o u l d h a v e r a i s e d

a r e u n n e c e s sa r y b e ca u s e M r P re t o r i u s a n d I h a v e t ri e d t o
20

re s o l v e t h e m s o t h a t a t l e a st t o d a y w e j u st g e t yo u r ru l i n g
w h i c h m a k e s i t e a si e r f o r b o t h m y cl i e n t s t o b e a b l e t o f i l e
a n d a s si st t h i s c o m m i s si o n a n d p r o b a b l y t h e i r e vi d e n c e w i l l
c o m p l e t e w h a t t h i s c o m m i s si o n h a s t o d o .
T h o s e a r e o u r s u b m i s si o n s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no that is fine.
Page 7 of 214

It is always a pity if

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Rule 3.3 Notices are not served at all or on time.

I do not

n o w p a y a t t e n t i o n a s m u c h a s I u s e d t o w h e n t h e c o m m i s si o n
st a rt e d

to

whether

Rule

3.3

Notices

h a ve

been

served

b e ca u s e t h o s e w h o m i g h t h a v e – w h o m a y r e m e m b e r w h e n
w e w e r e st a rt i n g t h e f i r st t h i n g C o u n se l w o u l d d e a l w i t h
when before leading a witness would be to deal with 3.3
N o t i c e s s o o ve r t i m e I t h o u g h t t h a t p e o p l e w o u l d – t h e
c o m m i s si o n ’s p e o p l e m a k e s u re t h a t 3 . 3 N o t i c e s a r e s e r v e d
o n t i m e a n d w h e n t h e y a r e n o t s e r ve d o n t i m e c o n d o n a t i o n
10

a p p l i ca t i o n i s m a d e a n d s o o n .
I g u e s s t h a t i n a l l p r o b a b i l i t y m o st a re se r v e d b u t st i l l
t h e r e a r e s o m e t h a t a r e n o t se r v e d t i m e o u sl y a n d s o o n . A n d
w h a t e v e r t h e c o m m i s si o n h a s – h a s f o u n d o u t t h a t i t h a s n o t
done well it should be big enough to apologise and try to do
better in the future.
W i t h r e g a r d t o t h e f i l i n g o f a n y a ff i d a vi t s b y M r F ra s e r
a n d M r M a n z i n i I a m a w a re t h a t M r M a n zi n i s e n t a n e m a i l
t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f l a st w e e k a n d re q u e st e d a n o p p o rt u n i t y
a n d I a m u n d e r t h e i m p r e s si o n t h a t a l e t t e r – a r e s p o n s e w a s

20

s e n t t o h i m o n F ri d a y t o s a y t h a t h e m u st j u st c a l c u l a t e
f o u rt e e n d a y s f r o m w h e n h e r e c e i v e d t h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr
Maqetuka

and

then

file

his

a ff i d a vi t

and

apply

for

c o n d o n a t i o n i s h e f i l e s i t o u t si d e f o u rt e e n d a y s.
B u t t h e i d e a i s si m p l y t o s a y w h e r e t h e re m a y h a ve
b e e n p ro b l e m s w i t h 3 . 3 N o t i c e s t h e re w i l l b e a c c o m m o d a t i o n
Page 8 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
– y o u k n o w.
A D V S I K H A K H A N E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

P ro b a b l y.

What

I

do

not

know

Mr

S i k h a k h a n e i s w h e t h e r w h a t e v e r i s l e f t o ff Mr M a q e t u k a ’s
e vi d e n c e w h e t h e r i t i s l i ke l y t o r e l a t e t o y o u r cl i e n t s.

Mr

P r e t o ri u s m i g h t k n o w b e t t e r b u t f r o m w h a t I s a w I w a s n o t
sure that it would be so.

But we – we can make an

a r r a n g e m e n t i n t e rm s o f w h i ch t h e – t h e f o u rt e e n d a y s r u n s
f ro m a d a t e t h a t o n e c a n d e t e rm i n e n o w i f t h e r e n e e d s t o b e
10

c e rt a i n t y a b o u t w h e t h e r h e m i g h t st i l l i n cl u d e m a t t e r s t h a t
re l a t e t o yo u r cl i e n t s.
A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C : We l l C h a i r t w o p o i n t s w h i c h a r e m y
l a st p o i n t s.

S o l e t m e st a rt w i t h t h e l a st o n e .

And one is

t h a t w e l l i f t h e C h a i r l o o k s a t t h e a ff i d a vi t – I m e a n t h e
e vi d e n c e o f M r M a q e t u k a o f M r N j e n j e a n d M r M o S h a i k t h e
C h a i r w i l l se e t h a t t h e y t ri e d t o a n a l y s e d i ff e r e n t i n t e l l i g e n ce
p a r a d i g m s i n t h e w o rl d a n d t h e c o u n t r y.

And most of it I

t h i n k w i l l b e c o m p l e t e w h e n t h e o t h e r i n t e l l i g e n c e o ff i c e r s
give you that.
20

I t m a y n o t re l a t e t o t h e m b u t I t h i n k t h e

v e r s i o n y o u a re t o l d a b o u t p a ra d i g m s o f i n t e l l i g e n c e o n i t s
o w n – I k n o w m a n y i n t e l l i g e n c e a g e n ci e s a re l a u g h i n g a t u s
t h a t o u r i n t e l l i g e n c e o ff i c e r s a r e t e l l i n g t h e w o rl d h o w w e a k
a n d h o w st r o n g w e a r e b u t w e a r e h e r e n o w.

So that is the

f i r st p o i n t
S o i t m a y h e l p t h i s c o m m i s s i o n t o l i st e n t o t h e o t h e r
Page 9 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
p e o p l e w h o l e e t h a t e n vi r o n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV SIKHAKHANE SC: Give you that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I ce rt a i n l y w a n t t o h e a r j a .
A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C :

T h e l a st p o i n t i s t h i s C h a i r.

As I

s a i d M r F r a se r a n d M r M a n z i n i c o m e h e r e re l u ct a n t l y t o
b r e a c h a n o a t h t h e y t o o k t h a t t h e y w o u l d d i e w i t h s e c re t s o f
t h e st a t e i s t h a t w e a r e a s s u m e C h a i r t h a t si m p l y b e c a u s e
t h e o t h e r t h r e e f o rm e r l e a d e r s o f i n t e l l i g e n c e h a v e t e st i f i e d
10

a n d l a i d b a r e t h i n g s t h a t r e l a t e s t o s e c u ri t y m y cl i e n t s a r e
a l s o i n d e m n i f i e d f ro m b r e a c h i n g t h a t o a t h b e ca u s e a s I sa i d
w h e n t h e y t a l k a b o u t t h e PA N p ro j e ct t h e C h a i r w i l l r e a l i s e
t h a t t h e m a n w h o t ru l y l e d t h a t i s M r F r a s e r a n d b e c a u se o f
t h e n a t u re o f w h a t i t i s t h e l e g i t i m a c y o f i t a n d w h a t i t d o e s
t o t h e i n t e l l i g e n c e s e r vi c e i s t h a t h e t h e n h a s a c c e s s t o
s e cr e t s t h a t h e o t h e r w i s e s h o u l d n o t sh a r e b u t h e w i l l a n d
we assume Chair that because the other three have been
a l l o w e d t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e s e cr e t s h e i s e q u a l l y i n d e m n i f i e d
f o r d o i n g s o b e f o r e t h e C h a i r b e c a u se i t i s a n i m p o rt a n t

20

c o m m i s si o n .

B u t o t h e r w i s e i t i s s o m e t h i n g o r d i n a ri l y I h a v e

a d vi s e d h i m n o t t o d o a n d h e h a s f e l t n o i n t e l l i g e n c e o ff i c e r
s h o u l d d o b u t t h e re i s n o c h o i ce a n d w e a s s u m e h e w i l l n o t
b e a r re st e d f o r s h a r i n g t h o se s e c r e t s w i t h t h e C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h .
A D V S I K H A K H A N E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
Page 10 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e h e a r w h a t Mr P re t o ri u s h a s t o s a y.

I j u st s a y t h a t n o b o d y h a s a s ke d m e t o i n d e m n i f y h i m f r o m
a n yt h i n g a n d I d o u b t t h a t I h a ve p o w e r t o i n d e m n i f y a n yb o d y.
Thank you.
A D V SI K H A K H A N E S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r w e t h a n k yo u s o

m u c h f o r t h e o p p o rt u n i t y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Ju st v e r y b ri e f l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e f i n a l a ff i d a vi t o f t h e w i t n e s s, t h e

A m b a s sa d o r M a q e t u ka w i l l a l s o c o n t a i n s o m e c o r r e c t i o n s a s
e m e r g e d i n e v i d e n c e s o i t i s p r o b a b l y f a i r e r t o t h e i m p l i ca t e d
persons

that

the

f o u rt e e n

days

ru n

f ro m

the

time

the

e vi d e n c e i s c o m p l e t e .
S e c o n d p o i n t i s t h a t i n d e f e n c e o f t h e s e c r e t a ri a t a n d
t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s t h e y g o t o e xt e n si v e e ff o rt s u n d e r g r e a t
p r e s s u r e t o o b t a i n re l e v a n t a d d r e s s e s a n d c o rr e ct a d d r e s s e s
f o r i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n s.
I n t h i s c a se a s w i l l a p p e a r i n t h e a ff i d a vi t w h i c h w e
20

s h o u l d h a n d u p t o y o u b e c a u se i t i s i n t h e p o s s e s si o n o f t h e
o t h e r p a rt y t o w h i c h m y l e a rn e d f ri e n d re f e rr e d t h e – t h e
d e vi c e

to

which

the

Rule

3.3

was

sent

was

a ct u a l l y

re g i st e r e d i n t h e i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n ’s n a m e o v e r q u i t e a
s u b st a n t i a l p e ri o d o f t i m e .

What happened to it thereafter

w e w i l l n o d o u b t h e a r b u t t h a t i s t h e ro u t e o f t h e c o n f u si o n ?
Page 11 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
T h e t h i rd p o i n t g r e a t e m p h a s i s h a s b e e n l a i d b y m y
l e a r n e d f ri e n d o n t h e n a t u r e o f t h e e vi d e n c e g i v e n .

It is –

m a y b e cl e a r t o u s b u t i t s h o u l d b e cl e a r t o t h e p u b l i c a s w e l l
Chair

that

however

s e ri o u s

an

allegation

it

does

not

c o n st i t u t e a f i n d i n g o r a n a p p r o a ch o f t h e co m m i s si o n u n l e s s
a n d u n t i l yo u h a v e h e a rd a l l t h e e vi d e n c e a n d m a d e a
finding.
And

then

l a st l y

Chair

the

c o m m i s si o n

as

we

u n d e r st a n d i t i s n o t i n a p o si t i o n t o g i v e i n d e m n i t i e s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay thank you.

So I – I do not think I

n e e d t o m a k e a ru l i n g a s s u c h b u t I t h i n k t h a t w e w i l l a l l
a c c e p t t h a t M r M a n zi n i a n d M r F r a s e r ’s f o u rt e e n d a y s w i l l
ru n f r o m a f t e r t h e y h a v e re c e i v e d t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t
o r a ff i d a vi t s t h a t r e l a t i n g t o M r M a q e t u ka t h a t w i l l b e s e r ve d
on them.
A D V P R E TO R I U S S C :
nature

of

our

Ye s C h a i r.

re l a t i o n s h i p

D e s p i t e t h e a d v e r s a ri a l

b e f o re

you

Chair

we

are

c o l l e a g u e s a n d w e a r e s o rt e d o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

No, no that is fine.

No thank you very

m u c h . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . T h o s e w h o w i s h t o b e e x c u s e d a r e
e x c u se d . M r N o t s h e a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : C h a i r w e a r e r e a d y t o p ro c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

Chair today is the

h e a ri n g

of

the

e vi d e n c e o f M s N o m v u l a P a u l a M o k o n ya n e a n d t h e w i t n e s s
Page 12 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
i s h e r e t o t e st i f y a n d C h a i r I w i l l t h e n a f t e r sh e h a s b e e n
s w o rn i n a n d j u st t a k e h e r t h ro u g h t h e f i l e t h a t w e h a v e a n d
s o t h a t s h e c a n f i n d h e r w a y w h e n s h e i s t e st i f yi n g t h r o u g h
t h e f i l e . A n d C h a i r b e f o r e w e e ve n g e t t h e r e , I h a v e s p o k e n
to the people who help us with the files and pagination we
h a ve a g r e e d t h a t t h i s f i l e w h i c h c o n t a i n s t h e e vi d e n c e a n d
h e st a t e m e n t s r e l a t i n g t o M s M o k o n y a n e t h a t i t w i l l b e
Exhibit B.
CHAIRPERSON: Bundle?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

We w i l l – b u n d l e – I a m so rr y I a m

re f e rr i n g t o t h e b u n d l e B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m s u r e t h e re h a v e b e e n – t h e r e h a s
been Bundle B before.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I am told Chair that the – the bundle

n u m b e ri n g st a rt e d w i t h t h e e vi d e n c e o f – o f C h a rl L e R o u x
and that was then labelled Lea Bundle A and then they say
this will be then Bundle B.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

hope

that

information

is

accurate

b e ca u s e w e d o n o t w a n t t o e n d u p w i t h t w o b u n d l e s B .
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

No I am – I was assured that the bundle

s y st e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : S t a rt e d w i t h C h a r l L e R o u x’s e vi d e n ce .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

So we will – this will be Bundle B

then.
Page 13 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e n yo u l o o k B u n d l e B .
CHAIRPERSON:

But before you proceed, I think there are

lawyers representing the witness who need to get a chance
t o p l a c e t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d a n d I t h i n k t h e y c a n p l a ce
themselves on record.

I do not know if the – I hope the

m i cr o p h o n e s w h e r e t h e y a r e w o r ki n g t h e n t h e y ca n – t h e y d o
n o t n e e d t o g o t o t h e p o d i u m f o r n o w. Ye s.
May it please you Mr Chairperson I appear for the
witness in this matter if I may remove my mask?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
UNKNKOWN COUNSEL:

We w e r e i n st r u ct e d b y M a d l a n g a

A t t o rn e y s a n d w e a re h e re i n t h e s p i ri t o f co o p e r a t i o n t o
c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e c o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
UNKNKOWN COUNSEL:

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s M r N o t s h e . S o t h i s w i l l b e
Bundle B.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t – i t h a s – w e l l t h e y i n cl u d e d n o t i ce s
20

here.

I t h i n k n o t i c e s s h o u l d b e p e rh a p s s e p a r a t e f r o m t h i s

b e ca u s e w e d o n o t r e a l l y n e e d t h e n o t i c e s.

Th e y c a n b e i n

s e p a r a t e f i l e b u t t h e r e i s n o t h i n g w e c a n d o a b o u t i t n o w.
We

will

keep

them

there

but

for

future

notices

and

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t h a ve g o t n o e vi d e n t i a l v a l u e s h o u l d n o t
b e i n cl u d e d .

S o t h a t w h a t w e s h o u l d h a ve i n t h e l e v e r a r c h
Page 14 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
f i l e sh o u l d o n l y b e st a t e m e n t s a n d d o c u m e n t s t h a t h a ve g o t
e vi d e n t i a l v a l u e .
A D V N O T S H E S C : I u n d e r st a n d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t y e s p r o c e e d .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r t h e – t h e g e n e si s o f t h e e vi d e n ce

o f – j u st p r e s e n t e d b e f o re y o u i s t h e e vi d e n c e M r A g r i z zi a n d
t h e r e i s a st a t e m e n t h e g a ve t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n .

He gave

e vi d e n c e t h e r e a f t e r t h e r e w a s a s u p p l e m e n t a r y st a t e m e n t
a n d t h e n M s M o k o n y a n e f i l e d a r e s p o n se a n d t h e n M r A g ri z zi
10

f i l e d a r e p l y t h e re t o .

I w i l l t a k e b e f o r e M s M o k o n ya n e

t e st i f i e d , I w i l l t a k e y o u t h ro u g h j u st t o f i l e s so t h a t s h e
k n o w s w h a t d o c u m e n t – w h e r e t h e d o c u m e n t i s. A n d w h a t I
a l s o i n t e n d d o i n g C h a i r i s M s M o k o n ya n e w i l l t e st i f y a n d
t h e n I w i l l t h e n t a k e h e r t o t h e p o i n t t h a t sh e i s r e s p o n d i n g t o
a n d t h e n – s o t h a t i t t h e n m a k e s s e n s e w h a t s h e i s t e st i f yi n g
about.

B e ca u s e w h a t s h e h a s d o n e i n h e r – i n h e r a ff i d a vi t

i s t o re s p o n d d i r e ct l y t o t h e st a t e m e n t o f M r A g ri z zi b o t h t h e
main

st a t e m e n t a n d t h e – t h e m a i n

s u p p l e m e n t a r y st a t e m e n t .
20

st a t e m e n t a n d t h e

So Chair with your leave can she

b e s w o r n i n a n d t h e n I w i l l t a k e h e r t h r o u g h t h e st a t e m e n t s
b e f o r e s h e t e st i f i e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

She will be sworn in and then we talk

a b o u t w h a t yo u p r o p o s e t o d o a f t e r t h a t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h a n k yo u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e a d m i n i st e r t h e o a t h o r a ff i rm a t i o n .
Page 15 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

O h s o r ry.

S o r r y C h a i r I d i d n o t re a l i s e

t h e m i c ro p h o n e i s – t h i s C h a i r w a s m e a n t f o r t a l l p e o p l e .
n e ve r r e a l i se d t h a t a s h o rt p e r s o n l i k e m e w i l l c o m e .

I

So it

was high up but it is now to my height.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : M y n a m e i s N o m vu l a P a u l a M o k o n y a n e .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e ct i o n s
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a m s o rr y, I a m so r ry.

Yo u c a n t a k e o ff

y o u r m a s k f o r w h e n y o u a r e j u st t a ki n g t h e o a t h s o t h a t
e v e r yt h i n g c a n b e h e a r d p r o p e rl y.

We l l y o u c a n m o v e i t a

l i t t l e b i t yo u d o n o t h a v e t o t a ke i t o ff c o m p l e t e l y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h C h a i r p e r s o n . I s a w
y e st e r d a y t h a t t h e y s a i d i t i s a l so u n h yg i e n i c t o p u t i t o n t h e
c h e e k.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

And I do have serious ailments hence I

a m v e r y s e n si t i v e o f m y h e a l t h .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

No, no – oh no – look if that is so maybe

p u t i t b a c k a n d t h e n w e w i l l j u st t r y t o s p e a k l o u d e r.

Ja

o k a y.
R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : M y n a m e i s N o m vu l a P a u l a M o k o n y a n e .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a ve a n y o b j e ct i o n t o t a ki n g t h e

p r e s c ri b e d o a t h ?
Page 16 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u co n si d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b i n d i n g o n

y o u r c o n s ci e n ce ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I d o .
REGISTRAR:

D o yo u s w e a r t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e y o u w i l l g i v e

w i l l b e t h e t ru t h ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t t h e
t ru t h ; i f s o p l e a se ra i se y o u r ri g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e
God.
M S M O K O N YA N E : S o h e l p m e G o d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k yo u . Yo u m a y b e s e a t e d . B e f o r e M r
N o t s h e p r o c e e d s M s – M s M o k o n y a n e I j u st w a n t t o t h a n k
y o u f o r co m i n g t o t h e c o m m i s si o n t o t e st i f y a n d I w a n t t o
a l s o i n d i ca t e t h a t t h e r e p o rt s t h a t I h a ve r e c e i v e d r e c e n t l y
a r e t o t h e e ff e ct t h a t y o u a n d y o u r l a w y e r s h a v e g i v e n t h e
c o m m i s si o n c o o p e r a t i o n i n e v e r yt h i n g t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n
doing and there has been a lot of cooperation from your side
a n d f r o m t h e si d e o f yo u r l a w y e r s a n d I j u st w a n t t o re c o r d
t h e c o m m i s si o n ’s a p p r e ci a t i o n f o r t h a t co o p e ra t i o n .
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k yo u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r p e r s o n .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

T h a n k yo u .

A n d m a yb e b e f o r e h e

g o e s f u rt h e r I m u st a l s o sa y y o u w i l l b e a s ke d q u e st i o n s b y
h i m . I w i l l a l s o a s k s o m e q u e st i o n s. L i st e n t o t h e q u e st i o n s
c a r e f u l l y. I f yo u d o n o t u n d e r st a n d t h e q u e st i o n s a y s o i t w i l l
b e r e p e a t e d . A n s w e r t h e q u e st i o n s t o t h e b e st o f yo u r a b i l i t y
a n d a s f a r a s yo u – y o u r e m e m b e r.
Page 17 of 214

He has a duty to ask

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
q u e st i o n s t o t r y a n d g e t t o t h e t r u t h o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t w e
a r e l o o ki n g a t a n d h e w o u l d b e d o i n g t h a t t o t h e b e s t o f h i s
a b i l i t y.

I h a v e t o s a t i sf y m y s e l f t h a t I h a v e g o t a l l t h e

i n f o r m a t i o n a n d cl a r i f i ca t i o n t h a t I m a y n e e d b e c a u s e i n t h e
e n d I m u st d e ci d e m a t t e r s a n d i t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t I s h o u l d
u n d e r st a n d y o u r v e r s i o n , I s h o u l d u n d e r st a n d w h a t y o u s a y, I
s h o u l d u n d e r st a n d w h a t e v e r y o n e e l s e s a y s.

So I thought I

m u st j u st e x p l a i n t h a t b u t t h i s i s t h e – y o u r o p p o rt u n i t y t o p u t
y o u r si d e o f t h e s t o r y a n d t o d o d e a l w i t h w h a t e v e r m a t t e r s.
10

S o u se t h i s o p p o rt u n i t y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u r si d e o f t h e
st o r y i s h e a r d .
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k yo u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M s – M r N o t s h e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h a n k yo u .

M s M o k o n ya n e I a m s u r e

you have a black file in front of you – arch lever file.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w t h e – t h e st a t e m e n t t o w h i c h y o u

re s p o n d e d i t w i l l b e a p p e a ri n g o n p a g e – w h e n I re f e r M s
Mokonyane
20

to

p a g e s,

they

will

be

–

if

you

look

the

d o cu m e n t s i n f r o n t o f y o u t h e r e i s a – t h e n u m b e r i n r e d . S o
p a g e n u m b e r 1 re f e r s t o a p a g e n u m b e r. I t w i l l b e a n u m b e r
which is in red.
CHAIRPERSON:
q u i t e d a r k i n si d e .

A l ri g h t j u st o n e s e c o n d M r N o t sh e .

It is

T h e t e c h n i ci a n s o r w h o e v e r m u st j u st d o

something so that we have better lighting in the room.
Page 18 of 214

I

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
h a ve p re vi o u sl y a s k e d t h a t t h e re s h o u l d b e a l a m p n e xt t o
w h e r e t h e w i t n e s s st a n d s b e ca u s e s o m e t i m e s i t i s s o d a r k, I
d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r e v e r yb o d y c a n r e a d d o cu m e n t s w h e n
the lighting is like that.

Does it look like you will be able to

re a d M s M o k o n ya n e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I w i l l t r y t o C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i l l b e a b l e .
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k yo u f o r y o u r c o n si d e r a t i o n s y e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l ri g h t . T h a n k yo u . We w i l l p r o c e e d
10

in the meantime.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ms Mokonyane check they will be at the

top page 7 is 007.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h a t i s t h e e vi d e n ce o f M r A g ri z z i .

I am

j u st – j u st sh o w i n g y o u w h e re t h e st a t e m e n t s a r e a n d t h e n
we will come back to deal with them. And then that goes to
p a g e 11 . A n d t h e n i f yo u l o o k a t t h e d i vi d e r s, t h e y a r e i n …
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e y o u m u st j u st m e n t i o n t h a t w h e n

y o u r e f e r t o p a g e n u m b e r yo u w i l l n o t b e c a l l i n g t h e M P M
20

a n d 0 0 y o u w i l l j u st s a y 7 , 8 .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o t h a t s h e w i l l u n d e r st a n d .

u n d e r st a n d t h a t ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : Yo u u n d e r st a n d t h a t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I d o . T h e r e d ?
Page 19 of 214

Yo u

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : J a t h e r e d o n e j a . A n d t h e n I w i l l j u st – I
w i l l n o t c a l l T 2 0 M P M 0 0 I w i l l j u st r e f e r t o p a g e .
M S M O K O N YA N E : To p a g e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

To p a g e n u m b e r b u t i t i s t h e r e d n u m b e r

t h a t I a m r e f e r ri n g t o .

T h e n w h a t w i l l a l so h e l p u s y o u w i l l

s e e t h e r e a r e d i vi d e r s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Y s.
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

That

colour

–

multi-coloured.

d o cu m e n t i t i s – I w i l l r e f e r t o t h e s e ct i o n w h e r e i t i s.
10

So
I will

f i r st l y r e f e r y o u t o t h e d i vi d e r a n d t h e n t o t h e n u m b e r, t o t h e
p a g e n u m b e r a l ri g h t .

N o w y o u r st a t e m e n t w i l l b e u n d e r

d i vi d e r 4 . T h a t i s y o u r a n s w e ri n g st a t e m e n t o n p a g e 1 9 .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n – t h e n w e j u m p f r o m t h e re – s o
i f y o u g o – c a n y o u g o t o d i vi d e r 1 0 a n d t h e n o n p a g e 3 8 8 1 .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h a t i s t h e su p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t o f M r
A g ri z zi a n d y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o i t a l s o i n y o u r st a t e m e n t .
M S M O K O N YA N E : P a g e 3 8 1 .
20

ADV NOTSHE SC: No 3881 – 3881.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , i s i t 3 8 8 . 1 ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : 3 8 8 . 1 . I b e g yo u r p a rd o n , C h a i r.
M S M O K O N YA N E : 3 8 . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I s i t 3 8 1 o r. . . ?
ADV NOTSHE SC: 388.1.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

do

not

h a ve

Page 20 of 214

point

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : Yo u s e e , t h e . . . I t h i n k w h a t c o u l d b e , t h e
re d i n d i c a t o r s i n t h e m i d d l e . . .
M S M O K O N YA N E : O h , y e s. I s e e t h e r e t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t w h y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : I s t h e C h a i r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
10

M S M O K O N YA N E : I t i s n u m b e r e d i n t h e m i d d l e .
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e p a g e i s i n t h e m i d d l e , ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , w h y d i d t h e y w ri t e t h e p a g e n u m b e r i n

the middle on that page when... or every other page it is at
the corner?
A D V N O T S H E S C : I t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e re .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h a t i s co n f u si n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Ja, I apologise Chair and...
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y o u m a y c o n t i n u e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Ye s.

Then, Ms Mokonyane, then go

b a c k. . . t h e n g o b a c k t o D i vi d e r 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u l d t h e r e n o t h a ve b e e n a n o t h e r d i vi d e r
j u st

before

his

s u p p l e m e n t a r y. . .

before

Mr

A g r i z zi ’s

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h e r e a re n i n e d i vi d e r s. . . t h e re a r e t e n .

A g ri z zi i s u n d e r t e n C h a i r.
Page 21 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
A D V N O T S H E S C : B u t I h a v e t a k e n t h e w i t n e s s t o D i vi d e r 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e r e sh o u l d h a v e b e e n a n o t h e r d i vi d e r
f o r t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y b u t I t h i n k w e w i l l f i n d o u r w a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n D i vi d e r 6 , i t i s o n p a g e 0 6 4 . I s
t h e M r A g ri z zi ’s r e p l y t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
M S M O K O N YA N E : H ’ m .
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w, M s M o k o n y a n e , l e t u s g o b a c k t h e n
t o y o u r a ff i d a vi t a n d st a rt t h e r e .

C a n y o u j u st b e f o r e y o u

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa i t j u st . Te l l u s a g a i n w h e re i t i s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
A D V N O T S H E S C : S o rr y, M s M o k o n y a n e . I t s e e m s a s i f y o u
s u ff e r f r o m t h e sa m e i l l n e s s a s m e .
M S M O K O N YA N E : H ’ m .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

The height.

C h a i r, I a p o l o g i s e f o r t h e

b o t h o f u s.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E : J a .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Our height.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V N O T S H E S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
M S M O K O N YA N E : [ l a u g h s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
Page 22 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : J a .
ADV NOTSHE SC: In this one. That one is fine.
M S M O K O N YA N E : O k a y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : I t i s o n w h i c h d i vi d e r ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : I n t h e . . . t h e a ff i d a vi t i s o n D i vi d e r 4 .
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k yo u . Ye s , y e s. O k a y. Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

One

second.

Is

somebody

doing

something about the lighting?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

A p p a re n t l y. . . t h e y s a y i t i s o n t h e si d e

s o m e w h e re .
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , I a m t a l ki n g m o r e a b o u t i n t h e ro o m .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A p p a r e n t l y, t h e c o n n e ct i o n i s t h e r e i n

o r d e r t o g e t l i g h t s . T h e y m u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e y m u st d o s o m e t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . m u st I a d j o u r n s o t h a t s o m e b o d y ca n d o

that?
M S M O K O N YA N E : M a y b e , j a .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e a d j o u r n s o t h a t t h e y c a n c o n n e ct

that.
ADV NOTSHE SC: No, that is fine.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t sh o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n n e ct e d b e f o r e I

came in.
ADV NOTSHE SC: That is fine.
Page 23 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

We w i l l a d j o u r n f o r f i v e m i n u t e s.

We

adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S:
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S :
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t l o o k s b e t t e r. Ye s, o k a y. L e t u s
continue.
M S M O K O N YA N E : C h a i r p e r s o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : M a y I b e g y o u r i n d u l g e n c e ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : B e f o r e I g e t l e a d o n t h e a ff i d a vi t , I w o u l d
a l s o w i s h t o a d d r e s s y o u r s e l f w i t h d u e r e s p e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d l i k e t o . . . ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I w o u l d w i s h t o m a k e a st a t e m e n t b e f o r e

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : . . . i f y o u p e r m i t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s f i n e . Yo u m a y d o s o . T h e l a st t i m e
I a l l o w e d s o m e b o d y t o m a k e a st a t e m e n t b e f o r e st a r t i n g t h e
20

e vi d e n c e , w h a t h a p p e n e d i s t h a t t h e y i m p l i c a t e d ce rt a i n
p e o p l e , o t h e r p e o p l e i n t h e i r st a t e m e n t a n d w e d i d n o t k n o w
in advance.

So I am hoping that you will not be implicating

a n yb o d y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o t a t a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o k a y.

J a . Yo u r st a t e m e n t , y o u w o u l d

Page 24 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
like about what, five minutes?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, i f y o u g i v e m e f i v e m i n u t e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : I w i l l d o m y b e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y. Yo u m a y g o a h e a d .
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Th a n k yo u v e r y m u c h C h a i r p e r s o n .

And

t h a n k s f o r y o u r c o n si d e r a t i o n a l s o f o r a ff o r d i n g m e t h e
p e ri o d t o m o u r n . A n d f i n a l l y, I h a v e p r e s e n t e d m y s e l f b e f o r e
t h e C o m m i s si o n a n d I p r o m i s e t o c o n t i n u e c o o p e r a t i n g w i t h
10

y o u r g o o d s e l v e s.
C h a i r p e r s o n , j u st a s a p re c u r s o r t o a ff i d a vi t I h a v e
submitted.

I j u st w a n t t o p u t i t o n re c o r d t h a t f o r t h e b e t t e r

p a rt o f m y l i f e si n c e t h e a g e o f f i f t e e n , I h a ve b e e n p a rt o f
many South Africans who have availed themselves to be
d i re ct l y a ct i v e i n f i g h t i n g i n s u ff e ri n g a n d s a cri f i c i n g f o r a
n o n - r a ci a l ,

a

n o n - s e xi st

and

a

united

d e m o c ra t i c

South

A f ri c a .
Throughout,

until

t o d a y,

here

in

this

p a rt i c u l a r

C o m m i s si o n , I h a v e c o m e k n o w i n g v e r y w e l l C h a i r t h a t i t i s
20

st i l l p a rt o f t h a t j o u r n e y I h a ve m a d e a co m m i t m e n t t o w a r d s,
o f p a yi n g t h e p ri c e f o r m y c o m m i t m e n t a n d d e t e r m i n a t i o n t o
f i g h t a n y i n j u st i c e a g a i n st m e , m y c o m r a d e s, f a m i l y a n d a l l
o t h e r S o u t h A f ri c a n s.
T h e s u b m i s si o n s t h a t h a s l e d t o m e b e i n g h e re t o d a y, I
find

them

e xt r e m e l y

d e f a m a t o r y.
Page 25 of 214

I

find

them

full

of

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
c o n t r a d i ct i o n s b y so m e o n e w h o h a s h a d a m p l e t i m e a n d
o p p o rt u n i t y a ff o rd e d t o h i m e x c l u si v e l y.
I find that the smack of hatred.
i n s e n si t i ve .

I find that they are very

I f i n d t h a t t h e y se e m t o b e a n a ct o f e x c e s si v e

d e sp e r a t i o n f o r t h e r e a s o n s t h a t a r e b e t t e r k n o w n b y M r
A g ri z zi t o d i s c r e d i t m e , t o d e st r o y t h e l i t t l e o f w h a t re m a i n s
o f m y c h a r a ct e r, m y f a m i l y a n d m y s e l f i n p a rt i c u l a r.
T h e r e a r e c e s si o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e o f m y p o l i t i c a l
i n f l u e n c e o f t h e p re s i d e n t s a s i t i s st a t e d i n h i s a ff i d a vi t s. I t
10

also shows the naivety and ignorance that he himself, Mr
A g ri z zi h a s o n h o w t h e A N C f u n ct i o n s, t o g e t h e r w i t h h i s
w i t n e s s e s.
A n d i t g o e s a s f a r a s t o s a y i n p a g e 4 6 7 p a ra g r a p h 1 0
t h a t I h a v e e v e n g o n e t o a n e xt e n t t o h a vi n g a s e r i o u s
i n f l u e n c e o n P re s i d e n t C o m r a d e T h a b o M b e k i .
T h e y a r e f a l l i n g s h o rt C h a i r p e r s o n o f e v e n s a yi n g I h a d
i n f l u e n c e o n C o m r a d e P r e si d e n t N e l s o n M a n d e l a . Th e a b o v e
a c c e s si o n s i n d i c a t e t h a t b o t h h i m , Mr A g ri z zi a n d h i s a l i a s
d o n o t u n d e r st a n d n o r k n o w t h e A N C n o r e v e n k n o w m e a s a

20

person.
I b e l o n g C h a i r a n d I a m m e m b e r o f t h e A f ri c a n N a t i o n a l
C o n g r e s s.

I h a v e a n d I e n j o y f u l l d e m o cr a t i c ri g h t s w i t h i n

t h e A N C , i n cl u d i n g t h e c h o i c e o f a l e a d e r I p r e f e r.
A t n o p o i n t C h a i r h a v e I n e v e r b e e n l o y a l o r s u p p o rt i v e
o f a n y l e a d e r d e m o c r a t i c a l l y e l e ct e d , e ve n i n i n st a n ce s
Page 26 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
w h e r e I h a v e d i r e ct l y c o n t e st e d a p o si t i o n a n d l o st , I w o u l d
embrace

the

outcomes

and

rally

behind

the

e l e ct e d

leadership executive and even execute the mandate of that
p a rt i c u l a r o u t c o m e .
B u t I h a ve a l s o b e e n , n o t w i t h st a n d i n g t h a t , b e i n g a
vi ct i m o f t h o s e w h o h a d c o m e w i t h t h e n o t i o n o f t h e 1 9 9 6 C l a s s P r o j e ct i n t h e s c h e m e o f p o l i t i c s.

I have received

d i s m i s sa l l e t t e r s, d i s m i s si n g m e f ro m t h e C e n t ra l C o m m i t t e e
o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n C o m m u n i st P a rt y b e c a u s e o f m y l o y a l t y
10

t o t h e m o ve m e n t a n d t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f t h e A f ri c a n N a t i o n a l
C o n g r e s s.
I h a v e co n t e st e d t h e c u r r e n t Tr e a s u r e r, t h e G e n e r a l o f
t h e A N C f o r t h e p o si t i o n o f a G a u t e n g c h a i rp e r s o n . Ye t e v e n
then, our families, our personal relationships have remained
s o cl o s e t o e a c h o t h e r, s u c h t h a t h e r e m a i n s a f a m i l y f r i e n d ,
a b ro t h e r a n d m o r e i n p a rt i c u l a r, a n u n cl e t o o u r ki d s a n d t h e
s a m e w i t h m e a n d h i s f a m i l y.
Who went to Nasrec Chairperson in 2017.

It is a known

f a ct t h a t m y p r e f e re n c e w a s o n C o m r a d e N k o s a z a n a D l a m i n i
20

Z u m a , t h e c u rr e n t Mi n i st e r o f C o G TA .
I w a s e ve n t h e n p a rt o f a c o l l e ct i v e , o n b e h a l f o f t h e
N a t i o n a l E xe c u t i v e C o m m i t t e e o f t h e A N C , t h a t r a n t h i s
c o n f e r e n ce p r o p e r l y.
Ye t I w a s a c c u s e d b y s o m e i n t h e m e d i a f o r i n t e n d i n g t o
c o l l a p se t h e c o n f e r e n c e b y h a vi n g ca l l e d f o r a r e c o u n t a n d
Page 27 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
m a n y o t h e r a c c u s a t i o n s.
Even

then

Chairperson,

the

c o n f e r e n ce

ran

and

c o n cl u d e d i t s a g e n d a a n d i m m e d i a t e l y t h e r e a f t e r, w e a l l h a d
to

rally

behind

the

l e a d e r sh i p

c o l l e ct i v e ,

and

all

the

o u t co m e s o f t h e c o n f e r e n ce .
When

we

moved

it

to

E a st

London

b e ca u s e t h e c o n f e r e n c e w a s i n D e c e m b e r.

p o st

N a sr e c

-

In January when

we went to celebrate the anniversary of the ANC in 2018, I
w a s a m o n g st t h o s e a n d t h e re a r e t h o s e so ci a l m e d i a cl i p s
10

t h a t s h o w e d N o m vu l a M o k o n y a n e p u b l i cl y a n n o u n ci n g i n
f ro n t o f t h e m e d i a t h a t d e l e g a t i v e s p o k e n , t h e sl a t e s w e re
b r o k e n i n N a sr e c a n d w e h a v e t o m o v e o n w i t h t h e a g e n d a
as mandated by Conference under the leadership of the
c u r r e n t P r e si d e n t o f t h e A N C , C o m r a d e C y ri l R a m a p h o s a .
A s f o r P re s i d e n t Z u m a .
s u p p o rt e d

Comrade

P r e si d e n t

I t i s a kn o w n f a ct t h a t I
Zuma

a g a i n st

Comrade

P r e si d e n t T h a b o M b e ki , f i rm l y o n m y b e l i e v e t h a t h e co u l d
n o t h a v e m o re t h a n t w o t e r m s, a s w e l l a s, o n m y p o l i c y
p r e f e re n c e s a n d t h e ch o i c e I h a v e m a d e .
20

I h a v e s e r v e d C h a i r a n d l e d u n d e r C o m r a d e P r e si d e n t
Z u m a i n cl u d i n g b e i n g p a rt o f h i s ca b i n e t . I h a v e n e v e r a ct e d
i n t h e C ri m i n a l J u st i c e S y st e m C l u st e r.

I have never been

a p p o i n t e d i n a n y o f t h o s e p o si t i o n s .
I h a v e o n l y s e r v e d a s t h e M i n i st e r o f Wa t e r.
p o st - N a s r e c,

I

was

moved

from

Page 28 of 214

Wa t e r

And then
taken

to

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Communication.

Then moved from Communication taken to

E n vi r o n m e n t a l A ff a i r s.

A n d t h e n p o st t h e e l e ct i o n s, I o p t e d

n o t t o g o b a c k t o p a rl i a m e n t .
I w a s p a rt o f t h e c o l l e ct i v e g o i n g t o M a n g a u n g , C h a i r
t h a t su p p o rt e d C o m r a d e P r e si d e n t Z u m a f o r s e co n d t e r m .
A n d f o r t h a t , I a l s o s u p p o rt e d C o m r a d e P r e si d e n t M o t l a n t h e
w h o , a m o n g st o t h e r s, h e p r e f e rr e d , h e h i m s e l f , t o b e a
c o n t e st a n t a g a i n s t P r e si d e n t Z u m a , w h e n I p r e f e r r e d h i m
w i t h m a n y o t h e r m e m b e r s a n d st r u ct u r e s w i t h i n t h e A N C a s
10

t h e d e p u t y p r e si d e n t t o C o m r a d e P r e si d e n t Z u m a .
U p o n C o m r a d e M o t l a n t h e d e cl i n i n g t h e D e p u t y P r e si d e n t
p o si t i o n , I w a s p e r s o n a l l y, a m o n g st m a n y A N C m e m b e r s,
w h o t h e n o p t e d t o b ri n g t h e c u r r e n t P r e si d e n t , C o m r a d e C y ri l
Ramaphosa

to

be

the

Deputy

P re s i d e n t

a g a i n st

former

Tr e a s u re r G e n e r a l o f t h e A f ri c a n N a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s, w h o b y
t h e w a y, l e f t u s a t t h a t c o n f e r e n c e .
A n d w e h a d t o b e sa v e d b y m a n y o t h e r p e o p l e w h o a r e
a c c u se d o f b e i n g c o r r u p t a n d h a v e ca p t u re d t h e st a t e a n d
t h o se a r e t h e p e o p l e w h o sa v e d u s f r o m t h e M a n g a u n g
20

C o n f e r e n c e a n d t h e co n f e re n c e ra n sm o o t h l y a n d P re s i d e n t
Z u m a a n d D e p u t y P r e si d e n t t h e n , R a m a p h o s a w e r e e l e ct e d .
I

did

this

u n d e r st a n d i n g

all
the

as

a

duties

l o ya l

member

of

of

member

i n cl u d i n g

a

the

ANC,
the

C o n st i t u t i o n .
O n m y p e r s o n a l a t t a c k a n d vi l i f i c a t i o n C h a i r, I t a k e
Page 29 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
s e r i o u s e x c e p t i o n , f i n d i t i n s e n si t i v e f o r M r A g ri z zi t o cl a i m
t h a t t h e y p a i d t h e c o st s f o r t h e b u r i a l o f m y s o n a n d m y
f a m i l y.
H e e v e n c o n f u s e s t h e n a m e s, e v e n m y o w n s o n s, a s t o
who has passed on who has had a drug problem.

P re c i se l y

b e ca u s e h e h a s o t h e r u l t e ri o r m o t i v e s o f w h i ch I d o n o t
k n o w.
M y f a m i l y, l i k e m a n y o t h e r s, i n c l u d i n g y o u r s e l v e s a n d
m a n y o t h e r s, b o t h b l a c k a n d w h i t e , d o re c e i v e c o n d o l e n ce s
10

d u ri n g b e r e a v e m e n t s.
B u t w e a l l kn o w C h a i r t h a t t o cl a i m t h a t B O S A S A b u r i e d
m y s o n a n d f a m i l y i s s o h u rt i n g , d e r o g a t o r y a n d i n s e n si t i v e
o f M r A g ri z zi .
I n a n y o f m y b e r e a ve m e n t s, w e u p h o l d o u r p ri d e a n d
c u l t u r a l p r a ct i c e s a n d o n e o f t h o s e i s t h a t w e b u r y o u r o w n .
We t a k e t h e re s p o n si b i l i t y o f w h a t a r e t h e b u ri a l c o st .

We

take

and

full

r e s p o n si b i l i t y

in

line

with

our

cu st o m s

t ra d i t i o n s.
I a m m a r ri e d t o B a s o t h o , p r o u d l y.
20

Proudly Basotho.

[ S p e a ki n g v e r n a c u l a r] , w h o h a v e t h e i r o w n c u l t u r a l .
b o r n a . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

I am

We h a v e o u r o w n c u l t u r e a t h o m e a n d

w e h a v e o u r o w n r i t u a l s t h a t w e p r e f e r.
A n d t h e r e f o r e , w e c a n n o t g o a n d h a v e a st r a n g e r b u r y i n g
our own because we do not want to be followed up by other
t h i n g s t h a t w e h a v e t o s o rt o u t p o st t h e b u ri e r.
Page 30 of 214

I think the

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
C h a i r u n d e r st a n d s b e t t e r w h a t I a m s a yi n g .
A n d w e k n o w t h a t w h e r e p e o p l e c o m e C h a i r p e r so n a n d
m a k e c o n t ri b u t i o n s, i t w i l l b e , a s i t i s d o n e i n o t h e r f a m i l i e s
i n cl u d i n g i n o t h e r re l i g i o n s.
N o w p e o p l e o ff e r c o n d o l e n c e s i n d i ff e r e n t f o rm s.
not

even

known

by

the

immediate

f a m i l y.

And

Some
in

the

i n st a n c e s t h a t M r A g ri z zi i s re f e rri n g t o , I h a v e b e e n t h e
c h i e f m o u r n e r.
And in our own tradition and our culture, I am confined
10

t o t h e b e d r o o m w i t h a m a t t re s s p u t d o w n a n d m y s e l f j u st
i n t e r a ct i n g w i t h . . . t h e o n l y p e o p l e t h a t I ca n t e l l y o u C h a i r,
w h o I h a v e n e v e r b e e n t h e i r s u p p o r t e r b u t t h e y h a v e b e co m e
m y o w n f a m i l y, i s O r l a n d o P i r a t e s.
The

O rl a n d o

bereavements

Pirates

co m e ,

and

would
yet

they

f o r e v e r,
kn o w

I

d u ri n g
am

an

my
a vi d

s u p p o rt e r o f K a i z e r C h i e f s.
E v e n w h e n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 4 : 2 9 ] s a i d t h i s i s t h e i r f a m i l y
b u si n e s s, I a m st i l l a f a n o f K a i z e r C h i e f s b u t m y h o m e i s
w i t h O rl a n d o P i r a t e s b e c a u se si s M a n t w a , b r a I r vi n K h o z a , I
20

s e e t h e m a s m y o w n b ro t h e r s.

I c a l l h i m “ G r o o t m a n ”.

I

c a l l e d si s M a n t w a . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 4 : 4 4 ] M a n t w a , p re c i se l y
b e ca u s e o f m y m a rri a g e t o B a s o t h o .
O u t o f a l l t h i s, I s o w i s h C h a i r t h a t e v e n o n e d a y w h e n
d e a t h h a s st r u c k o n M r A g ri z zi ’s f a m i l y, n o o n e u se h i s p a i n
t o t r y a n d d i s c r e d i t o r s e e k t o d e st ro y h i m .
Page 31 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
It

is

u n -A f ri c a n ,

[ S p e a ki n g

it

is

v e r n a c u l a r] .

inhumane,
People

do

it

lacks

co m e

Ubuntu.
[speaking

v e r n a c u l a r] .
A n d s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h e i s r e f e r ri n g t o , a r e t h i n g s
t h a t I re a l l y t h i n k t h e y a r e a ct u a l l y b o t h e r o n u n d e rm i n i n g
a n d t r yi n g t o d e s t ro y t h e l i t t l e o f m y c h a r a ct e r t h a t I h a ve
built.
With regard to the food donated by BOSASA.

A s t h e se

t h i n g s a r e h a p p e n i n g n o w C h a i r, j u st n o w, u n d e r l o c k d o w n ,
10

there

are

h u n d r e d s,

if

not

t h o u s a n d s,

of

b u si n e s s

and

i n d i vi d u a l s w h o g o a l l o u t t o s h a r e w i t h c o m m u n i t i e s.
With BOSASA was no exception and it continues to be
no exception.

I a m st i l l i n v o l v e d i n c h a ri t y w o r k, n o t e v e n

b e i n g i n p a rl i a m e n t , n o t b e i n g a p u b l i c r e p r e se n t a t i v e .
A s w e s p e a k n o w, ki d s i n K a g i s o 1 , w i l l b e f e d t h ro u g h
t h e i n i t i a t i v e s a n d t h e s u p p o rt t h a t b u si n e s s h a v e e xt e n d e d
to make sure that those who normally depend on the food
t h a t t h e y f i n d . . . t h e y g e t s e r v e d a t s c h o o l , a r e n o w a ct u a l l y
g i vi n g s o m e t h i n g t o l i v e a n d su r vi v e n o w t h a t s c h o o l s. . . n o w
20

that they have not gone back to school.
A n d a l s o C h a i r, I c a n a l s o i n d i c a t e t h a t n o t o n l y h a v e
B O S A S A w o r k e d o r su p p o rt e d t h e c o m m u n i t y o f K a g i s o .

It

h a s g o n e a s f a r a s O ra n g e F a r m . I t h a s d o n e a l o t o f w o r k i n
L i m p o p o i n t h e ru r a l a r e a s.
I t w a s w o r k e d i n P o rt E l i z a b e t h .
Page 32 of 214

And here, they found

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
m e a s o n e o f t h e p u b l i c r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s, o n e o f t h e a ct i vi st
o f K a g i so , a c h i l d o f K a g i s o , a ch i l d o f M u n s i e vi l l e , t h a t w e
should work together and make sure that when they donate
t h e se t h i n g s w e a re t h e re .
A n d t h e y h a ve se r ve d a n d t h e y h a v e d o n e t h o s e t h i n g s.
T h e y h a v e e v e n b e e n g i v e n a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o p e o p l e w h o
w o u l d n o t h a v e h a d a C h ri st m a s ce l e b ra t i o n , a c h a n c e t o
h a ve a M e r r y C h ri st m a s.
T h e r e w a s a m o m e n t w h e n p a re n t s a n d c o m m u n i t i e s
10

Chair in Gauteng – and I think all of us will remember
b e ca u s e i t w a s o u t i n t h e m e d i a – w h e n a l l o f u s w e re
o v e r w h e l m e d a n d d e s p e r a t e b e c a u s e o f t h e d r u g a b u se i n
t h i s p r o vi n c e .
O u t si d e o f m y r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a s a p u b l i c r e p r e s e n t a t i v e
b u t a s a n a ff e ct e d p a r e n t C h a i r, t o g e t h e r w i t h c o m m u n i t y
l e a d e r s, p a re n t s – a n d I w a n t t o st a t e i t , O rl a n d o P i r a t e s
w h i c h I d o n o t e v e n s u p p o rt e ve n t o d a y – c a m e f o r w a r d ,
w o r ke d o n a p r o g r a m m e t h a t w e n t o u t t o a s si st ki d s.
We p i c ke d u p ki d s l a y i n g i n Vi l a ka zi S t r e e t .

20

u p ki d s i n D i e p kl o o f .

We p i c k e d

We p i c k e d u p ki d s i n K a g i s o .

And

b e ca u s e o f t h i s s o ci a l m o b i l i s a t i o n . . . w e h a d a c ri si s i n
E l d o r a d o P a r k t h a t e v e r y b o d y k n o w s, w h e re I m e t m a n y o f
t h e a n t i - d r u g a ct i v i st s.
We
forward.

worked

t o g e t h e r.

And

all

t h e se

people

came

A n d i n t h i s p a rt n e r s h i p - i t w a s n o t o n l y B O S A S A ,
Page 33 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
t h e r e w e re o t h e r i n st i t u t i o n s t h a t a l s o c a m e t o p a rt n e r w i t h
t h e c o m m u n i t i e s.
A n d i n t h i s i n st a n c e , B O S A S A a g a i n , o ff e re d t o l e n d a
h a n d i n a s si st i n g t o f i g h t t h i s s c a r e o f s u b st a n c e a b u s e .
T h e y o ff e re d s e r v i c e s v o l u n t a ri l y.

N o t t o m y ch i l d o n l y.

Not

to me but to the community that had come forward.
And

young

people

who

are

willing

to

be

a s si st e d ,

volunteered themselves and admitted themselves into the
s e r v i ce s
10

of

Gauteng.

BOSASA,

not...

and

it

then

went

I t e v e n w e n t t o t h e We st e r n C a p e .

beyond

It went to

L i m p o p o . I t w e n t t o t h e N o rt h We st a s w e l l .
O n s e c u ri t y m a t t e r s C h a i r. C h a i rp e r so n , m y l i f e a n d t h a t
o f m y f a m i l y h a s b e e n a l w a y s u n d e r t h r e a t f ro m a s f a r b a c k
a s i n t h e 8 0 ’s.
We

h a ve

ki d n a p p i n g s.
s h o o t i n g s.

s u r vi v e d

b o m b i n g s.

We

We h a v e s u r vi v e d t o rt u r e .

have

survived

We h a v e s u r v i ve d

We h a v e su r vi v e d p o i s o n i n g , n o t o n e b u t m a n y a

t i m e s.
E v e n w h e n I w a s e l e v e n d a y s m a r ri e d a n d t w o m o n t h s
20

pregnant.

We

thought

we

were

going

into

a

sp e ci a l

h o n e y m o o n o n l y t o f i n d t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o S e ct i o n 2 9 a n d
we

were

then

kept

in

isolation

together

with

my

late

h u sb a n d , S e rg e M o k o n y a n e .
A t t h e t i m e w h e n I w a s e v e n t h e P r e m i e r, C h a i r, n e v e r
m i n d t h o se t i m e s i n t h e 8 0 ’s, a n d u n f o rt u n a t e l y, i f y o u k n o w
Page 34 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
t h e 8 0 ’s, t h e Tr u t h C o m m i s si o n – a n d I t h i n k i t w a s a m o n g st
o t h e r v e n u e s, u si n g t h i s ki n d o f f a c i l i t y – h a s n e v e r c o m e o u t
u n t i l t o d a y.
N o b o d y, i n cl u d i n g a d i st ri ct s e r g e a n t w h o c o l l u d e d w i t h
t h e se c u ri t y b r a n c h t o sa y, “I a m n o t p r e g n a n t ”.

Tr yi n g t o

a b o rt m e f o r ce f u l l y, n e v e r c a m e f o r w a rd t o a p o l o g i s e .
E v e n t o d a y, n o b o d y h a s co m e o u t t o s a y w h o b o m b e d
our homes more than once.

N o b o d y h a s c o m e f o r w a rd t o

s a y w h o a ct u a l l y w a n t e d t o j u m p t h e f e n c e a n d t h e g a t e i n
10

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 0 : 1 7 ] S t re e t , w h e re I u s e d t o l i v e i n 1 0 . . .
‘85.
A n d t h a t o u t o f t h e s e c u ri t y a d vi s e o f t h e A N C , w e h a d t o
move

away

from

that

area

b e c a u se

there

was

illegal

e l e ct ri ci t y c o n n e c t i o n a n d o u r h o u s e s o m e t i m e s g o t d a r k
b e ca u s e o f i l l e g a l c o n n e ct i on , o n l y t o f i n d o u t t h a t t h e r e w a s
a l s o a p l a n t o k e e p o u r h o u s e d a r k.
We h a d t o m o ve t o S i l v e rf i e l d s, n o t t o K e n m a r e a s M r
A g ri z zi a n d h i s w i t n e s s e s r e f e r.

I h a ve n e ve r l i v e d i n

K e n m a r e . I h a v e l i v e d i n K a g i so .
20

I g o t m a r ri e d . I l i v e d i n M u n s i e v i l l e . I m o v e d t o K a g i s o .
I t h e n l i v e d w i t h m y f a m i l y i n S i l v e rf i e l d s a n d t h e n w e a r e
now in Noordheuwel.
A g a i n , a d e m o n st ra t i o n t h a t t h e y d o n o t k n o w m e .
s e e m t o b e b a r g i n g a n d t r yi n g t o f i n d e v e r yt h i n g .

They
I t j u st

deals with the little of the character that I have built for
Page 35 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
m y se l f .
A t t h e t i m e w h e n I w a s t h e P r e m i e r, C h a i r I w a s f a c e d
w i t h a h o u se b r e a ki n g w h i l st I w a s a sl e e p i n si d e t h e o ff i ci a l
re s i d e n c e i n B r y a n st o n .

T h a t r e si d e n ce h a d c a m e r a s o n .

T h a t re s i d e n c e h a d S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi ce s o ff i c e r s o n
d u t y.

A n d st r a n g e l y o n t h a t d a y, t h e a l l e g e d t h a t t h e y

k n o c ke d o ff a t t w o i n t h e m o r n i n g .
People got into the house.

T h e y t o o k a l l t h e e l e ct r o n i c

a p p l i a n c e s. F o rt u n a t e l y, I l o c k e d t h e d o o r w h e n I a m a sl e e p .
10

A n d t h e y l e f t w i t h n o o n e h a vi n g f o u n d t h e m .
To d a t e n o b o d y, i n cl u d i n g m e m b e r s o f t h e S A P S w h o
w e re o n d u t y t h a t t i m e o r st a rt e d d u t y, h a v e e ve r f a c e d a n y
h e a ri n g .

J u st a si m p l e h e a ri n g o r a d i s c i p l i n a r y c a se .

N o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d . B u t l e t u s l e a ve t h a t C h a i r.
N o w w h e n I w a s t h e m i n i st e r, I w a s s e n t t o g o a n d w o r k
i n t h e E a st e r n C a p e i n U m t a t a .

T h e r e w a s a b r e a k -i n i n t o

my room and only to find out that that hotel only had its
c a m e r a s a t t h e re c e p t i o n a n d i n t h e ki t c h e n a n d p e o p l e
broke into my room.
20

T h e y t o o k a l l t h e e l e ct r o n i c g a d g e t s, w h i l st I w a s a sl e e p .
T h e y t o o k m y h a n d b a g a n d a l l o t h e r va l u a b l e s.
nobody has been prosecuted.

To d a t e ,

A case was opened.

Until

t o d a y, n o b o d y h a s a ct u a l l y c o m e b a c k t o m e a n d s a y, “ We
h a ve

closed

this

case

because

we

w h a t so e v e r”.
Page 36 of 214

have

no

e vi d e n c e

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
B u t n o w r e c e n t l y, w i t h t h e ki l l i n g o f G e o r g e Fl o y d – I l i v e
in

Noordheuwel,

C h a i r.

And

l i vi n g

in

Noordheuwel...

N o o r d h e u w e l – I d o n o t l i v e i n t h e u p p e r N o o rd h e u w e l . I l i v e
a m o n g st t h e w o r ki n g cl a s s i n t h a t a r e a j u st a s i n S i l v e rf i e l d s.
I l i v e i n a st a n d a l o n e h o u s e .

I a m su b s c ri b e d t o a

s e c u ri t y c o m p a n y. A n d w h e n t h e r e w a s t h i s i s s u e o f G e o r g e
F l o y d a n d a b o u t B l a c k L i v e s M a t t e r, o n e o f t h e o t h e r p e o p l e
w h o r e si d e i n N o o r d h e u w e l , a w h i t e p e r s o n , a ct u a l l y w e n t
o n t o t h e c h a t g r o u p a n d w a s m a ki n g a m o c k e r y o f G e o r g e
10

Floyd.
I re s p o n d e d .

My daughter who lives with me also

re s p o n d e d t o s a y b u t t h i s i s s o w ro n g .

T h i s i s a s e c u ri t y

chat group.

A n d t h e y w e re a l l

laughing.

Yo u c a n n o t d o t h e s e t h i n g s.

T h e y w e re a l l m a ki n g a m o c k e r y.

And I was the

f i r st w h o r e sp o n d e d .
But guess what happened Chair? This man, a white man
w h o I d o n o t k n o w, d e ci d e d t o g o f o r m y d a u g h t e r, K a t l e h o ,
t e l l i n g h e r, “I k n o w yo u .

I k n o w w h e r e yo u l i v e .

a n d y o u r m o t h e r a r e st a yi n g a l o n e .
20

I kn o w y o u

I will get you.

I can

c o m e e v e n n o w ”.
A n d I a m sa y i n g t h i s n o w d u ri n g t h i s p e ri o d o f t h e
lockdown.

A n d a l l t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e r e p o rt e d t o t h e p o l i c e .

A n d p r e ci s e l y b e c a u se o f t h a t , I c a n s a y a l l t h o s e w h o w a n t
t o d e a l w i t h N o m v u l a f i n d i t d i ff i c u l t t o c o n f r o n t m e d i re ct l y
b u t o p t t o g o d i r e ct l y t o t h o s e t h a t t h e y k n o w t h e y m a t t e r
Page 37 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
m o st i n m y l i f e , m y c h i l d r e n .
A n y p a r e n t w h o g e t s a t t a c k e d t h r o u g h h i s o r h e r ki d s,
a ct u a l l y f e e l s t h e se v e r e st p a i n c o m p a r e d t o b e i n g d i re ct l y
attacked.
N o w C h a i r, w h e n I w a s i n S i l v e rf i e l d s, o n e o f t h e t h i n g s
that happened was that one of the days we found our dog
a ct u a l l y p o i s o n e d . E v e n t h e n , n o w o r k w a s d o n e . T h e S P C A
t o o k t h e d o g a n d a l l t h o se t h i n g s. We d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a s
happened.
10

N o t o n c e C h a i r b u t m a n y a t i m e s, e v e n d u ri n g t h e
a p a rt h e i d d a y s, I h a ve n e v e r r e f u s e d o r f a i l e d t o c o o p e r a t e
w h e n e v e r t h e r e i s a n i n v e st i g a t i o n a g a i n st m e .
E v e n n o w, w h e n t h e C o m m i s si o n a rri v e d a t h o m e , I
st a y e d

away

f ro m

them.

A l so

due

to

my

own

health

c o n d i t i o n s b u t a l s o b e c a u se o f t h e r e s p e ct f o r t h e r u l e o f l a w
a n d a l l o w e d t h e t e a m t o w o r k.
A n d i n t h a t i n s p e ct i o n , st i l l , t h e y c o n t i n u e d t o l o o k f o r
w h a t e v e r t h a t t h e y w e r e l o o ki n g f o r, w h i c h u n f o rt u n a t e l y, t h e
v e r y w i t n e s s e s t h a t h a v e m a d e m e t o c o m e h e r e t o d a y, a r e
20

st i l l f u d g i n g i s s u e s a n d c o n f u si n g m a t t e r s b u t t h a n k s t o M r
N i x o n w h o a ct u a l l y c o n f i rm e d t h a t s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t
a r e s a i d h e r e d o n o t a ct u a l l y st a n d g r o u n d .
I f i n d i t v e r y c o n c e r n i n g C h a i r t h a t h a vi n g b e e n a t p a i n s
t o c o o p e r a t e , a l o t o f se n s a t i o n h a s b e e n c r e a t e d a b o u t m y
h o u s e , a b o u t m y f a m i l y a n d w h a t i s f o u n d i n m y h o u s e e ve n
Page 38 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
w i t h a l o t o f i n a c c u r a ci e s, i n c l u d i n g a si m p l e i n a c c u r a c y t o
s a y t h a t I h a ve w o o d e n st a i r s i n m y h o u s e .
There

a re

not

wooden

d e s cri b i n g m y h o u s e i n si d e .

st a i r s.

His

a s s e s si o n

of

B e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h e ki t c h e n ,

y o u p a s s a p ri v a t e l o u n g e w h i c h h a s g o t a d o o r o n t h e ri g h t h a n d si d e a n d w e h a ve a d i n i n g r o o m t h a t h a s a l w a y s b e e n
i n u se .
B u t o f co u r s e , i t i s M r A g ri z zi ’s . . . [ t h r o a t cl e a ri n g ] .
E x c u s e m e C h a i r.
10

I t i s M r A g ri z zi ’s i n t e n t i o n t o r e a l l y r u b i n

a p e r c e p t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n p r e f e r re d o v e r t i m e a b o u t t h e
ki n d o f p e r s o n t h a t t h e y w a n t t o p ro j e ct t o s o ci e t y a g a i n st
the person that I am.
H e cl a i m s t o h a v e b e e n t h e r e w h e n I w a s g i vi n g c a s h
a n d I a m co n t e st i n g h i m .

I am challenging him.

They also

a g r e e w i t h h i s w i t n e s se s t h a t t h e r e w e re i n st a n c e s t h a t w h e n
t h e y ca m e t o t h e h o u s e a n d t h e y m e t t h e re a t t h e h o u s e i n
m y a b se n c e , k n o w i n g v e r y w e l l C h a i r t h a t I a m a c t u a l l y a
b u s y w o m a n a n d h e n c e I w a s a l so g i v e n t h e n a m e M a m m a
A ct i o n .
20

I

am

always

on

the

road

for

church

reasons

or

c o m m u n i t y i s su e s o r m y o w n f a m i l y t h i n g s, e v e n t r a v e l l i n g a s
far as Lesotho because of the love I have for the people.
N o t o n l y t h a t a r e o f m y . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 2 7 : 2 1 ]
H e r e m a i n e d i n t h e c o u n ci l b u t l a t e r w i l l r e f l e ct a n d s a i d
o n l y o n e o f u s m u st st a y i n p o l i t i c s a n d t h e o t h e r o n e m u st
Page 39 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
opt out.

H e t o o k c a r e o f t h e f a m i l y, i n cl u d i n g m o st o f t h e

m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e t o d o w i t h t h e u p ke e p i n g o f t h e h o m e , a s
w e l l a s, o u r s a f e t y a n d m o v e d t o N a t i o n a l C a b i n e t .
T h r o u g h o u t m y t e rm i n G a u t e n g , s e c u ri t y m a t t e r s w e r e
t h e re s p o n si b i l i t y o f t h e st a t e . E v e n w h e n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s
p a d d l e d t h e n e w s b e f o re t h e C o m m i s si o n s a i d , m y h u sb a n d
a ct u a l l y r e p o rt e d t h r o u g h a n S M S t o s a y t h i s i s h o g w a sh .
T h i s i s [ s p e a ki n g v e r n a c u l a r] .
U n l e s s M r A g ri z zi d o e s n o t k n o w, m y h u s b a n d i s a p r o u d
10

A f ri c a n m a n .

A v e r y p ro u d B a s o t h o .

Ve r y s e l f l e s s w h o h a s

t ri e d e v e r yt h i n g C h a i r, e v e n u n d e r t h e s e co n d i t i o n s, E ve r
G r e e n P r o j e ct i n E s k o m .
U n t i l t o d a y, m y h u s b a n d w a s f i g h t i n g t h a t c a s e w h e r e h i s
p r e f e re n c e , i n cl u d i n g t h e a p p l i c a t i o n o f t h e 3 0 % q u o t a , w a s
i g n o r e d b e ca u s e t h e E v e r G r e e n b e e n a n y w a y a S e c r e t
I n t e l l i g e n c e o p e r a t o r o f t h e A f ri c a n N a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s, t h e
p e r s o n o f M r A g ri z zi .
I n m y s e r vi n g t h e A N C , b e i n g t h e m e m b e r o f , I h a v e
s e e n va ri o u s b u si n e s s o r g a n i s a t i o n s m o m e n t a ri l y c o m i n g
20

f o r w a r d t o s u p p o r t A N C l e a d e r s a n d p ro g r a m m e s, i n cl u d i n g
s h a ri n g c a m p a i g n s a n d p a rt i e s o f . . . a n d p a rt i e s o f l e a d e r s o f
the ANC.
This

has

not

only

happened

d u ri n g

Comrade

P r e si d e n t Z u m a ’s t e r m , b u t w i t h a l l l e a d e r s s t a r t i n g w i t h
C o m r a d e P r e s i d e n t M a n d e l a u p t o n o w. I a m n o t s u r e i f M r
Page 40 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Agrizzi is saying it was because of other ulterior motives
that we were working and BOSASA was supporting and
working with us in the African National Congress.

What

w o u l d h e s a y o f t h e t a x i i n d u s t r y ? To d a t e t h e t a x i i n d u s t r y
is not subsidised by the State but the taxi industry has
worked with us in the ANC using their cars as mobile bill
boards, telling supporters of the ANC to rally a state owned
e n t i t y,

national

–

Chairperson,

I

beg

your

pardon,

C h a i r p e r s o n , a s t a t e o w n e d e n t i t y Te l k o m w a s o n e o f t h o s e
10

who sponsored our national conferences and many other
businesses that are included here.
And this has been something that is being done not
only for the ANC, not only for me, not only for members of
the

ANC

but

operations

this

here

in

has

been

this

country

part

of

where

the

democratic

businesses

had

chosen to support those that they prefer would pursue their
interests and would also help to reconstruct and rebuild
t h i s c o u n t r y.
The support that was given and the relationship had
20

no strings attached and that is an assertion that Mr Agrizzi
himself says that at some point he got frustrated about this
relationship.

He

himself

and

Mr

Nixon,

one

of

the

investigators, also confirmed that there has never been a
contract or a tender when I was MEC for Environment but I
can proudly say my legacy and the legacy of the ANC when
Page 41 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
I was appointed MEC for Agriculture, Conservation and
Environment

in

Gauteng

was

to

now

have

I am

s o r r y,

Maropeng,

being a World Heritage site.
I

moved

it

t o S a f e t y.

I

will

say

something, one of the things that we did was to activate
communities

and

one

of

the

key

campaigns

that

we

mobilised communities, business against crime, everybody
on, was a campaign against wanted criminals and dealing
with those that were harassing women and children in the
10

streets and reclaiming the streets.
One of those projects was Operation Wonderful(?)
Pardon my language but it was demonstration of the extent
of which communities were angry against crime.
The

second

Braamfontein,

is

one,

Ikhaya

C h a i r,

as

Lethemba

we

speak,

where

here

together

in

with

Te l k o m t h e y d o n a t e d t h e b u i l d i n g f o r v i c t i m s o f g e n d e r based violence.
I moved to Housing.

When I came in Housing there

were only eight companies, white, well-established, Stocks
20

and

Stocks

that

is

now

Stefanutti

and

your

other

big

companies, they were the only eight that were established
contractors

and

the

other

upcoming

were

only

male.

Again, I went out and pursued the policy position to bring
w o m e n i n t o t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n i n d u s t r y, t o e m p o w e r y o u n g
people into the construction industry and this is how I have
Page 42 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
worked.
BOSASA

So having BOSASA here in Gauteng, having
in

South

Africa,

collaborating

and

supporting

government initiatives and the African National Congress
was not a foreign thing, showing off that he is working with
the African National Congress here in Gauteng and that
has never been an issue, nobody has ever frowned upon
and we all know [African language] that our children must
also

find

space

to

express

themselves

without

the

influence of [African language].
10

I w i s h a n d p r a y, C h a i r, t h a t M r A g r i z z i o u t o f h i s
own could refrain from using this Commission in a manner
that

shows a

sense

of

desperation

and

destruction

of

people’s characters for motives better known by him.
T h i r d l y, C h a i r, t h a t m a n t e l l s n o s t o r y.

Whether this

Commission is deprived of hearing not only from the late
M r G a v i n Wa t s o n b u t m y l a t e s o n , R e t l a b u s a t h e y h a v e –
having not been a person who is addicted to drugs and yet
Agrizzi refers to him showing how he does not even know
m y k i d s a n d a s w e s p e a k n o w, m y c h i l d w h o h a s a d r u g
20

problem is trying by all means to survive but they get
chastised, they get humiliated, they get mocked and they
get

actually

hurt

every

time

and

again

by

what

is

happening about their own parents.
And here I can see Mr Agrizzi now his new project
with all those – of that are his handlers, is on my daughter
Page 43 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Katleho.
hurts.

I cannot be correct.

It cannot be allowed.

It

I so wish that - sad Gavin and Retlabusa would

have been alive so that they can also come and tell their
side of the story because he claims he knows it.
Ye s , m y h u s b a n d i s a g o l f e r b u t m y h u s b a n d d o e s
not have a relationship with Agrizzi nor is my husband a
racist and the very fact that we have been born, lived and
bringing

our

families

verkrampte places.
10

in

Krugersdorp,

it

is

one

of

the

Tw o k i l o m e t r e s a w a y f r o m m y p l a c e

y o u h a v e g o t t h a t m o n u m e n t w h e r e Te r r e ’ B l a n c h e u s e d t o
go.

I l i v e w i t h t h o s e c o m m u n i t y.

them.

I have high respect for

I do respect them and I appreciate that if they hate

you, they hate you.

If they do not want any relationship

with you, they do not have a relationship. But if they make
friends they are the best of buddies.
he

himself

does

not

actually

So I really think that

take

also

respect

for

individuals, both the dead and the living.
I

here,

C h a i r,

in

conclusion,

to

respond

to

his

continuous contradictions, the affidavits which I also think
20

reflect an abuse of this Commission for motives better
known to him.
The following are just my concerns, that my house
has been put up for public knowledge and access, the
address has mentioned more than once here and there has
also been those Google Maps that he has taken and has
Page 44 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
presented here before the house.

F o r t h e r e c o r d , C h a i r, I

w a n t t o t e l l y o u , a s w e s p e a k t o d a y, i n t h a t h o u s e I o n l y
live with two other women, myself my daughter and my
little grandchild Latita.
Rather

than

me

investing

on

the

future

g r a n d c h i l d r e n , I h a v e t o i n v e s t o n m y s e c u r i t y.
i n v e s t o n m y s a f e t y.

of

my

I have to

I have to invest on paying legal

support because I do not know what the intentions are but I
a m h e r e , C h a i r, b e c a u s e I b e l i e v e t h a t M r A g r i z z i m u s t b e
10

proven to be a character that I have characterised here
t o d a y.
With crime being on the rise, with all the issues that
are happening, I have said it, I have invested on – I have
t o i n v e s t o n s e c u r i t y, I h a v e t o t a k e c a r e o f m y s e l f b e c a u s e
I think this deep hatred from the man and those that have
actually advised him to go this route.
I

am

also

concerned,

C h a i r,

about

what

is

happening in the country on crimes against women and
children,
20

not

only

violent

or

physical

abuse

m i s o g y n y, I t h i n k M r A g r i z z i h a t e s w o m e n .

but

also

He chose to

pick myself and Dudu Myeni, for what reason, I do not
k n o w.

I have never worked in Correctional Services, I

have never worked in the Department of the Justice, I have
n e v e r a c t e d f o r a n y M i n i s t e r.
a m [ A f rica n la n gua g e ].

He gives me the credit that I

He claims that I have influence on
Page 45 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Comrade President Zuma.

Chairperson, for the record,

President Zuma signed a proclamation to investigate a
department under my leadership without having even said
anything to me but it came out and there was investigation.
Even

then

you

can

go

and

ask

the

Law

Enforcement

agencies, I have cooperated to an extent where I had to
frog march officials who were refusing to cooperate with
the SIU and everybody to come and cooperate because I
do believe that where there is transgression there must be
10

a c c o u n t a b i l i t y.
I

am

not

sure

why

in

all

these

supplementary

affidavits Mr A grizzi fails to confirm that through BOSASA
his own son, Giancarlo, rendered services to the ANC in
Gauteng Province and doing research.

He took selfies, he

posted and even when they were doing all these things, he
would always put the ANC there.

As to whether it was to

p r o t e c t B O S A S A , I d o n o t k n o w, b u t I d o w a n t t o s a y t o
y o u r s e l f , t o y o u r g o o d s e l f , C h a i r, I a m h e r e b e c a u s e I
have to put my own side of the story and all these things
20

that Agrizzi is saying about me, only him and his handlers
– I do not think even his God allows him to do this.
A n d h e n c e e v e n l a s t n i g h t , C h a i r, w e w e n t t o b e d
e a r l y h o u r s o f t o d a y, w o r k i n g o n a l l t h e s e d o c u m e n t s t h a t
are similar to this because I want to come set the record
straight, go out and continue with the life of looking after
Page 46 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
m y o w n c h i l d r e n n o w a s a w i d o w, m a k e a t t e m p t s t o e n s u r e
that there is food on the table, serve the people of South
Africa still, build this very ANC,

as we are doing even

under lockdown, and make sure that there is peace and
f r i e n d s h i p i n o u r c o u n t r y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very much, Ms Mokonyane.

I

just want to mention you did mention that you wished,
a m o n g o t h e r s , t h a t M r G a v i n Wa t s o n w a s a r o u n d t o b e a b l e
t o p u t h i s s i d e o f t h e s t o r y.
10

I have mentioned previously

that before he passed on the Commission had already been
in touch with his lawyers in order to make arrangements to
get an affidavit from him so that he could put his side of
t h e s t o r y b u t u n f o r t u n a t e l y, h e p a s s e d o n b e f o r e w e c o u l d
get that.

So I just thought I would mention that.

But I am

grateful you are here and you have already made certain
p o i n t s a b o u t y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y.

I think we will take the

tea adjournment so that when we come back then we can
continue.

O k a y, w e w i l l t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t .

time is twenty five past eleven.
20

The

We will resum e at twenty

to twelve. We adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
ADV NOTSHE SC:

...of state capture there can be many

ways

the

of

capturing

state

by

influence

–

trying

to

influence the people who have got influence in the state,
Page 47 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
you understand that?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

Now I see when you mentioned

in your speech that there are certain gifts that are made to
the ANC support but with no strings attached.
Yo u m e n t i o n e d t h i n g s l i k e t h a t a n d I s u p p o s e t h e
strings attached, you refer to the exact issued that is
involved in this Commission, the state capture.

10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Strings attached being tend to capture

the state.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , s t r i n g s a t t a c h e d i n t e r m s o f w h a t

Agrizzi says about my role in – on that.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Ms Mokonyane, although he will be

asking the questions most of the time but when you answer
please look this side.

20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o I c a n h e a r y o u a n d I c a n

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u s a y p r o p e r l y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Now let us …[intervenes]
Are you comfortable, are you okay?
I am comfortable, it is just cold here

but I am here.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, ja, this venue is very cold.
Page 48 of 214

Last

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
week I had to say they must switch off even the air con
b e c a u s e i t s e e m e d b e t t e r w i t h o u t w h a t t h e y c a l l t h e h e a t e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

B u t w e c a n p r o c e e d , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Well, as we continue, I do not – is it not

better if we switch off – they indicate that it is better that it
is on but…
M S M O K O N YA N E :

J a , l e t u s s o l d i e r o n , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, let us soldier on but just mention if it

becomes too much or unbearable.
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ma’am, can we go to folder divider 4,

your statement?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
On page 19 you give details about

y o u r s e l f , y o u r n a m e , w h e r e y o u s t a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, Mr Notshe, do you not want to

have her affidavit admitted as an exhibit?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

Before that, can

you just then turn, Ms Mokonyane, on the same page on
page – turn to page 40.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
Now you confirm there is an affidavit

t h e r e a b o v e t h e n a m e N o m v u l a – s o r r y, t h e r e i s a s i g n a t u r e
above the name Nomvula Paula Mokonyane, is that your
Page 49 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
signature?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , i t i s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And do you confirm that this document

we are looking at together with annexures NPM6 is your
affidavit?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

NPM?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

M6 on page 60.

CHAIRPERSON:

Well,

maybe

let

us

say

this.

Ms

Mokonyane, the document that starts at page 19.
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
And goes up to page 40, is that your

affidavit?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t i s , C h a i r.
And do you confirm that the contents of

that document are to the best of your knowledge and belief
true and correct?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t i s , C h a i r.
And it has got annexures, doe it?

just going to have a look.
20

Does it have annexures?

I am
Ja, it

has annexures.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t i s , C h a i r.
Ja,

those

are

affidavit.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
Page 50 of 214

annexures

to

your

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, t h e n t h i s d o c u m e n t i s – c a n i t

be admitted then as EXHIBIT T20 starting on – as Chair,
has indicated, page 19 and ending at page 62, that is the
content and the annexures.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you propose that it be EXHIBIT T20

only or T20A or T20.1 or...?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair, with your leave, can we –

because they have got the dividers 1, 2, 3, but if you use
the alphabet then it should be D, it should be 20D T20D.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

What will be 20A?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

20A will be the letter, the letter that

said the 3(3) on Ms Mokonyane and the B, the notice
…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but that is just a letter that is not

going to have any evidential value, is it not?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, there is no need for it to be

admitted at an exhibit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

can move

–

As you then please, Chair.

Then we

Chair, the only issue where I need

your

guidance then is 20 on divider 1, the letter contains the
notice

in

terms

of

Rule

3(3)

and

in

the

notice

is

accompanied by the affidavit of Agrizzi which will be part
of the evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, but the notice should not have been
Page 51 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
there

because

it

I suppose they had put the notice
contained

the

affidavit.

What

was

intended to be there is the affidavit of Mr Agrizzi, the main
affidavit.

Chair,

what

we

can

do,

what

we

can

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

You will not be referring to the notices,

is it not?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

No, I will not.
Yes.

Well, the first affidavit you have

got in the bundle is that of Mr Agrizzi.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Which would have been admitted and

has a certain exhibit when he gave evidence.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh yes.
Preferably we should keep that exhibit

number.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

In the that – in the evidence that you

…[intervenes]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

In regard to his one, the first one,

because that one would have been – the supplementary
affidavit, his supplementary affidavit would also have been
given an exhibit at the time he gave evidence.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I understand.
It

is

only

Page 52 of 214

his

response

to

Ms

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Mokonyane’s affidavit that would not have been given an
exhibit number as yet because he did not testify after
giving

deposing

to

that

affidavit

and

Ms

Mokonyane’s

affidavit certainly needs to be admitted but now you might
not have – you might not be ready to say what the exhibit
number was of Mr Agrizzi’s affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

And it may be that for the sake of

convenience the extracts from his affidavit, because it is
10

not the whole affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

The extracts that are here could be

given a new exhibit number and then that would make
things easier.

So we could start with Mr Agrizzi’s one and

make it EXHIBIT T20A or .1 and then when we reach Ms
Mokonyane’s one that might be T20.2 or B and so on and
so on. Do you prefer it that way?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I prefer it that way, Chair, so Chair,

we can leave then...
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay, so Mr Agrizzi’s affidavit appearing

at page 7 will be admitted – the extracts from his affidavit
will be admitted and marked as EXHIBIT T20A. Okay?
EXTRACTS FROM MR AGRIZZI’S AFFIDAVIT HANDED IN
AS EXHIBIT T20A.
CHAIRPERSON:

And we must give the notices and then
Page 53 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
we go to Ms Mokonyane’s affidavit or statement – oh, it is
a statement, it is not an affidavit, hey? At least that is how
it looks like at the beginning of the statement, I am not
sure at the end. At the end it says an affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Basically an affidavit, yes.

Her

affidavit is admitted and marked as EXHIBIT T20B, that is
together with its annexures.
MS

NOMVULA

MOKONYANE’S

AFFIDAVIT

TOGETHER

WITH ANNEXURES HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT T20B.
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

And then as you refer to others then we

will add.

So, Ms Mokonyane, when he refers to

Okay.

EXHIBIT T20B, that is your affidavit but he will probably –
will also say your affidavit.
MS MOKONYANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay.
And when we refer to EXHIBIT T20A,

that will be the extracts from Mr Agrizzi’s affidavit at the
beginning and then others will be marked as we go along.
Okay, Mr Notshe.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

But, Ms Mokonyane, if you get lost

please indicate and then we will also use the numbers to
guide you.
MS MOKONYANE:
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

Ja.
Now

we

were

at

page

19,

the

introduction in your affidavit, where you described your
Page 54 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
name and your address and also you – also there, Ms
Mokonyane, what you have done, through the directions of
the

Chairperson,

mentioning

your

is

to

withhold

address

also

from

for

evidence

security

from

purposes.

Throughout you have tried to steer away from mentioning
your address so we will not read it into the record.
MS MOKONYANE:

Thank you.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then at paragraph 2 you deal with

the various public offices, positions you have held.
10

MS MOKONYANE:

Yes.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And on page 20, paragraph 3, you deal

with the positions you have had in the ANC and paragraph
4 you have dealt with – Chair, it is – I am merely going
through this because it is just merely a background.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I think you should go straight to

the issues unless Ms Mokonyane has anything on these
pages that she particularly wants to mention. Nothing?
MS MOKONYANE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

No, nothing, Chair.
Okay.

Yes, okay.

So I think you should

go straight to the real issues.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ms Mokonyane, where I would really

want to start is on page 23, paragraph 14, where you refer
on paragraph 14, there where you said the narrative you
are dealing with is the publication in the Sunday Times.

I

am reading in the middle of the second sentence of that
Page 55 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
paragraph.
CHAIRPERSON:

Why do you want to deal with that?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair, I just want to discuss - Ms

Mokonyane to explain to the Commission the issue of the
Integrity Commission of the ANC.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, but …[intervenes]

ADV NOTSHE SC:

The point …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

But why is that particularly part of the

issues?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

The point I wanted to find out and

hope Ms Mokonyane would assist the Commission that the
Integrity Commission also is guarding against members of
the ANC, members who are in government to be unduly
influenced

who

gather

[inaudible

–

speaking

simultaneously]
CHAIRPERSON:
Agrizzi raised.

I think start with the issues that Mr

Let us start with that. If we end up dealing

with Integrity Commission, we can see how important it is
b u t I t h i n k l e t u s g o t o t h e r e a l i s s u e s f o r t h e d a y.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , f i n e , C h a i r. T h e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
And if at any stage there is something

that you have not covered that Ms Mokonyane or her
lawyers feel is important they will mention.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
Ja.
Page 56 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Then, Ms Mokonyane, turn to page 27

of the bundle which is your affidavit, paragraph 24, where
you are dealing with – you start to deal with the allegations
made by Mr Agrizzi.

Paragraph 24 is – and if you can put

your hand on page 27 and then turn to Mr Agrizzi’s affidavit
which starts …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, M r N o t s h e , t h e r e a r e t w o

ways of dealing with this.

One way is for you to tell Ms

Mokonyane which allegation by Mr Agrizzi you are dealing
10

with and she can deal with it because some of these
matters she might be able to deal without having to go and
look at a particular page but obviously if she wishes to
have a look, she can have a look. So one way is for you to
say Mr Agrizzi says the following and then let her deal with
that.

Another way is the way you want to deal with it but I

leave it to you, which one you want to adopt.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, I t h i n k t h e n t h e e a s i e r a n d

quicker way is for me to let Ms Mokonyane keep – stick to
h e r a f f i d a v i t a n d t h e n I w i l l r e a d a n d i f n e c e s s a r y, w e c a n
20

go and refer back to Agrizzi.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

So, go back to your affidavit on page

27.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , I a m , C h a i r.
And then what I will do then, Ms
Page 57 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Mokonyane, I will read what Mr Agrizzi is saying and then
you can respond on what you are responding to.

Tu r n t o

page 28 where you deal with paragraph 22.2 of Mr Agrizzi.
At 22.2 Mr Agrizzi says this: He says:
“During 2002/2003 she was the MEC for Safety and
S e c u r i t y G a u t e n g , a s f a r a s I c a n r e m e m b e r.

I met

her at the BOSA SA office while she was there on a
social visit.”
Now you deal with that on page 28 of your affidavit.
10

Yo u

say:
“The contents of this affidavit are admitted insofar
as these relate to my status.

At the time that I

denied in relation to me having met Agrizzi at that
stage at the BOS ASA office on a social visit.”
Now

Mr Agrizzi

replies,

he

replies

to

this

–

on

your

paragraph 26. He replies to it and this is on page 70. Of –
j a , p a g e 7 0 o f t h e r e d n u m b e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Ye s .
Now Mr Agrizzi says this, says – I am

reading his affidavit, he says:
“I deny the contents of this paragraph..”
That is your paragraph.
“…and Mrs Nomvula Paul Mokonyane has denied
that she had met me on a social visit at BOSASA
office park. I met Ms Nom vula Paula Mokonyane on
Page 58 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
both

social

coordinated

and

business

Nomvula

meeting.

Paula

I

even

Mokonyane’s

50th

birthday party celebrations which was funded by
BOSASA.

The theme of the birthday party was

“Break a Leg” or words to that effect. It was held at
Victorian Guesthouse

s i t u a t e d a t A 1 To m

Street, West Village, Krugersdorp.
present

as

a

guest

at

the

Muller

I was personally

birthday

party

to

coordinate the parking.”
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson, if I may respond on that.

This is again an assertion on what I have said about Mr
Agrizzi.

My 50th birthday was held at the casino, Silver

Star in Krugersdorp and not where Mr Agrizzi is referring
to.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

I turned 50 in 2013.

CHAIRPERSON:

Once again, Ms Mokonyane, I do not

know whether it is the air con but you are not as audible as
you were earlier on.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Is it better now?

CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s b e t t e r, j a .

Ye s , o k a y, j u s t s t a r t

again.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
assertion.

Chairperson, once more, this is a false

I turned 50 I 2013, my 50th birthday was hosted

at Silver Star Casino in Krugersdorp.
Page 59 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Is there a party …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, w h a t d i d A g r i z z i – w h a t

venue did Mr Agrizzi give?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

He says Victoria Guesthouse situated

a t A 1 To m M u l l e r S t r e e t , W e s t V i l l a g e , K r u g e r s d o r p .
Ms

Mokonyane,

just

explain

to

the

–

just

tell

N o w,
the

Chairperson …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

One second before you – that is not the

venue where your birthday party was held?
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.
Ye s .
The venue was at Silver Star and it is

a known place, it is on the road on N14.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
But is there a party that was ever held

at Victorian Guesthouse?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

There has been many parties at that

place.

20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I mean your party?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yo u h a v e n e v e r h a d a p a r t y t h e r e ?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And you have never had a party called

Break a Leg?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I have had a birthday party at Silver
Page 60 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
S t a r.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A Break a Leg?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.

CHAIRPERSON:

Well, he says the theme of your 50th

birthday party was Break a Leg, you say that is not true?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Well, did your 50th birthday party

have a theme even if it is not …[intervenes]
M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

The call was to people to come and

celebrate.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

The journey of my life.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ms Mokonyane, just in fairness to you,

I mean, you did not respond to this in an affidavit but what
you would do – what the Commission, as they are entitled
to do, is it can follow up the response you give.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

So I just want you to confirm that you

say there was no 50th birthday at Victoria Guesthouse and
you

say

there

was

never

your

Guesthouse.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.
Page 61 of 214

birthday

at

Victoria

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Is that your evidence?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

There has been other parties but not

m y b i r t h d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

At that place?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And you also want to confirm that at

that place at Victoria Guesthouse there was never your
birthday paid for by BOSASA.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

No, there was never that they paid

[indistinct – dropping voice]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And also, there was no birthday called

“Break a Leg”?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
birthday

–

not

No, not to my knowledge.

Nomvula’s

b i r t h d a y,

not

Not my

Nomvula’s

50th

b i r t h d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now then I am continuing with Mr

Agrizzi’s statement, paragraph 23.2, he says …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe let us expand on this. Mr Agrizzi

says that he had had both – he had attended meetings
20

where he was present and you were present, that you had
business meetings as well as social visits.

So do you say

that is not true at all or do you say some meetings, yes,
but not others or do you say you never attended a meeting
which

was

attended

by

Mr

Agrizzi

business meeting or a social meeting?
Page 62 of 214

whether

it

was

a

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I have never been in a meeting with

Agrizzi.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

And he is also not a personal friend or

anybody who I can have a social interaction with him.

He

says I will come across him in BOSASA and I did not.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

He says that there were meetings

w h e r e h e w a s a c c o m p a n y i n g M r G a v i n Wa t s o n a n d y o u
w e r e t h e r e . Yo u s a y t h e r e w e r e n o s u c h … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

A f e w c o m p a n i e s o f M r G a v i n Wa t s o n

but I have never sat with Agrizzi in a meeting.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a v e n e v e r b e e n i n a m e e t i n g w i t h

the two of them at the same time?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

No.
Ye s , o k a y ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ms Mokonyane, the Chair has just

touched on the paragraph I was about to read where Mr
Agrizzi says he met you a number of occasions at the
BOSASA office park where you norm ally used to visit, to
20

arrive after 17h00 where you attended on meetings with
t h e l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n a n d h e w a s p e r s o n a l l y p r e s e n t .
Now in this are you say you never or are you saying you
did attend meetings at the BOSASA office park but Agrizzi
was not there?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I have never in the day meeting with
Page 63 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Agrizzi in BOSASA office park.

I have met other people

who work at BOSASA because of the ANC’s operations in
BOSASA.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And – but you confirm that you did

attend meetings at BOSASA office park?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV

NOTSHE

Ye s , I h a v e .

SC:

Now

if

you

look

at

paragraph

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o r r y, w o u l d o n e o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t y o u

w o u l d m e e t a t B O S A S A o f f i c e p a r k b e M r G a v i n Wa t s o n ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , i t w i l l b e G a v i n a n d t h e n h e w o u l d

hand over the people who will be running a call centre and
those that will be assisting the ANC in its programme.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , o k a y.
Now paragraph 23.3 he says:

“Some of the meetings held where I was present
related specifically to criminal prosecution that was
being considered against BOSASA and its directors
and the SIU report.”
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

I deny that, I have nothing to do with

t h e S I U a n d a u t h o r i t y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then he says on paragraph 23.4:

“Nomvula Paula Mokonyane did further attend at the
office park on social occasions as well where I was
present.

This includes the official headquarters
Page 64 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
and ANC events.

BOSASA funded all celebrations,

food, refreshments including hiring and ancillary
costs.”
M S M O K O N YA N E :

This was for the ANC and it was not a

social thing, it was a political programme of the ANC which
I am a member of.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And is it correct ANC – BOSASA

funded the celebrations, the food, refreshments including
hiring and ancillary cost?
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , B O S A S A d i d f u n d s o m e o f t h e

p r o g r a m m e s , w a s a s p o n s o r.

Like I have indicated that

there have been many other sponsors such as BOSASA,
Te l k o m a n d m a n y o t h e r s w o u l d c o m e i n a n d s p o n s o r A N C
there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
affidavit.

Now

Now you go back to page 28 of your

this

is

a

–

on

paragraph

responding to paragraph 22.3 of Mr Agrizzi.

27

you

are

I will then –

let me read Mr Agrizzi’s affidavit, paragraph 22.3, that is
the main affidavit. Now he says:
20

“Subsequent thereto, towards the end of every year
I w a s t a s k e d b y G a v i n Wa t s o n t o s e e t o h e r f a m i l y ’ s
Christmas needs. It would include approximately:
22.3.1

120 cases of cold drinks.

22.3.2

4 c a s e s o f h i g h q u a l i t y w h i s k e y.

22.3.3

4 0 c a s e s m i x e d b e e r.
Page 65 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
22.3.4

8 Lambs

22.3.5

12 cases of frozen chicken pieces.

22.3.6

200 kg Beef (as well as various braai
packs.

22.3.7

Numerous

cases

of

Premier

brandy

and speciality alcohol.”
Now you respond to this in paragraph 27 on page 28.
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe you just let her respond without

going to her affidavit because som e of these things I think
10

she knows the answer but if she wants to be referred to the
relevant part of her affidavit she can be referred.

Ms

Mokonyane, if you feel free to just respond, just do that.
But if you need to have a look at your affidavit that would
be fine.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

N o , t h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

Just to respond

on this.
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .
I do not have the capacity to store

these volumes that Mr Agrizzi is referring to.
20

I have never

b e n e f i t e d o r r e c e i v e d a n y g o o d s t o t h e b e n e f i t o f m y f a m i l y.
I

have

been

employed

and

those

who

know

me

post

D e c e m b e r ’ 1 6 , m y f a m i l y c l o s e s o f f , w e g o o n h o l i d a y, w e
take a break, we only come back on the 30 December to be
with my family and all my in-laws and every in Kagiso in my
own parents’ home, so this is not true.
Page 66 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w i s t h e r e – s o r r y, M r A g r i z z i

responds to your affidavit, his response is on page 72.

He

responds to a number of these and paragraph 24 of his
affidavit he says:
“I admit I was gainfully employed as a Public Office
bearer and that her late husband was a business
man.

Then 4.2, save for the above, I deny the

contents of this paragraph, that is your paragraph, I
r e p e a t t h a t l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n a l w a y s a p o i n t o f
10

looking after Nomvula Paula Mokonyane and her
family’s Christm as needs and that inter alia the
items I mentioned were, in fact, not only delivered
but received by Nomvula Paula Mokonyane and her
f a m i l y. O n m o s t o c c a s i o n s t h e i t e m s w e r e d e l i v e r e d
to her address at Blouberg Street at Noordheuwel,
the house is situated in a cul-de-sac”,
Now just here, Ms Mokonyane, firstly he says you received
t h e s e p e r s o n a l l y, w e r e r e c e i v e d b y y o u a n d y o u r f a m i l y.
MS

20

M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson

I’ve

never

received

anything, as Mr Agrizzi is stating and as it is reflected on
my affidavit this has not happened, we all know that a
house like this one cannot have a storage to keep all these
items even those that came on site, I’m sure they didn’t
f i n d a n y s t r o n g r o o m o r a f r i d g e o r w h a t e v e r, f r e e z e r t h a t
cold keep this, nor did I have a place where I could keep
Page 67 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
many of these kind of items. I know what BOSASA has
done for the communities of the West Rand and for the
events over the festive season prior to them closing down
supporting and going an extra mile to do their CSI in
support of these communities, not for my personal benefit.
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

He

says

that

these

items

were

delivered at an address, at Blouberg Street and he says,
most importantly he says the house is at a cul-de-sac, is
that correct?
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , i t ’ s c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e

house is in a cul-de-sac, I’ve had bereavements there
people have come, Agrizzi had googled the map of the
house and it is at the cul-de-sac it’s never moved away
from there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now further in his affidavit, on the

same page, 72, he admits that BOSASA is involved in the
CSI projects but he persists that you did receive the items
you have mentioned and then over the page on page 73
paragraph 27, he then importantly mentions this, he says –
20

it deals with your paragraph 30 – but if you go back to
p a r a g r a p h 3 0 o f y o u r a f f i d a v i t y o u s a y, p a r a g r a p h 3 0 y o u
s a y,
“I’m not privy where this gossip is resourced from, if
a n y, b u t n o d o c u m e n t a r y p r o o f h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d
as

to

the

nature

and

type

Page 68 of 214

of

products

were

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
purchased and delivered by Agrizzi”,
In his response he says,
“Meat

was

purchased

from

Zim ane’s

Food,

G r e e n f i e l d s b u t c h e r y, R a n d f o n t e i n a n d t h e l i q u o r
and

cold

drinks

are

purchased

from

Swanes

in

Krugersdorp, the other items were sourced from
BOSASA kitchens”.
Do

you

know

this

Zimanes,

the

Greenfields

Butchery?
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

I’ve never come across all of them, I

know the places where I purchase my own meat, where I
purchase my own liquor and where I do my groceries.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And Swanes…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

Well

Mr

Notshe

you

asked

Mr

Mokonyane whether she knows these places, I don’t think
that

Mr Agrizzi

was

suggesting

that

she

knows

those

places where the – those things – where he says they were
purchased.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o , I u n d e r s t a n d C h a i r.
Ye s .
I also wanted to confirm whether these

– to her knowledge whether these places do exist but she
s a y s s h e d o e s n ’ t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I think the point is he gives certain

particulars to his – to what he says and he says where
Page 69 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
these items were purchased you might have nothing to say
other than you never received any such items.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h a n k y o u C h a i r, I ’ v e n e v e r r e c e i v e d

nor do I know these companies.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i s t h e r e a p o s s i b i l i t y t h a t s o m e o f

these items may have been purchased by BOSASA not for
you personally or for your family but to be given to the
community through you?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

What I’m refuting is that they did all

this purchase for me personally and for my family where
they

bought

provided

for

them,

I

don’t

those

that

k n o w.

were

What

deserving

I

k n o w,

and

they

that

was

actually distributed – people were even hosted with meals
they would have three meals a day and they will go home
with their Christmas hampers out of those activities.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is it possible that you may have asked

BOSASA or they may have approached you to respond to
community needs and purchased these for purposes of you
or whoever you work with in the community to pass on to
20

c o m m u n i t i e s a n d n o t f o r y o u a n d y o u r f a m i l y p e r s o n a l l y, i s
there a possibility that, that might have happened?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

BOSASA always invited us in their

a c t i v i t i e s a m o n g s t o t h e r s b e c a u s e o n e i s i n t h e c o m m u n i t y,
it’s

a

child

of

that

community

not

just

as

a

public

representative they’ve also not only did this kind of thing
Page 70 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
for the community of Kagiso or in the West Rand but
across.

They’ve also gone to an extent of even supporting

schools with the school nutrition programme so it may be
possible that he may be referring to where BOSASA used
t o p u r c h a s e , w h e r e t h e y c a m e f r o m I d o n ’ t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And in that – just a follow-up to what

the Chair ’s raising is it – were there any occasions where
the food that was meant or the items that were meant for
10

the CSI projects were delivered at your house?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
where

they

brought

Chairperson there was one instance
things

because

the

Kagiso

Old

Community Hall was under reconstruction and then the
food was collected, everything and the women in Kagiso,
as they normally did including veterans, older women, they
had their own big pots and own stoves they come, they go
and cook and then the following day everybody actually
has a shift, that is the only time and that is the time when
the Kagiso Community Hall – the Kagiso Hall, next to the
20

old police station and that’s when we m oved towards, what
is known as, Kagiso Community Hall in Lewsham and also
we’ve had many other activities in Mogale Community Hall
and now at the Heritage Centre.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

But you’re saying these were not at

your house, this cooking and delivery of the goods?
Page 71 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No the cooking and everything –

Kagiso, the old Kagiso Hall used to have a kitchen, used to
have facilities, used to have everything that would be
utilized there and these other ones they would then come
in

and

do

the

cooking

do

the

preparations

and

other

sponsors would bring blankets, others would actually bring
other goodies, food hampers and health products right at
the site of the activities that were taking place.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

paragraph

–

on

I see, now then you go on and

page

29

you

respond

to

Mr Agrizzi’s

paragraph 22.5, let me read paragraph 22.5, it reads as
follows:
“ S o o n a f t e r 2 0 0 2 I w a s a s k e d b y G a v i n Wa t s o n t o
supply

her

and

her

family

and

friends

p r o v i s i o n s d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e y e a r.

with
I was

instructed to contact her personal assistant, Sandy
Thomas”,
Now your response is on page 29, what is your
response, actually to this?
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Sandy is my personal assistant which

she is still even now and she assisted me in arranging
meetings to some extent but she would also be requested
by my own late husband to some of the things in the
absence where they could not actually get hold of me.
k n o w,

Chairperson,

that

BOSASA

Page 72 of 214

also

I

assisted

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
communities,

veterans,

military

combatants,

destitute

families with the burial so that people do not have proper
funerals

but

in

so

far

as

I’ve

stated

in

my

opening

statement, I’ve buried my family we are a family that might
not be wealthy but we take pride of burying our own but we
also appreciate whatever contributions that are made and
many of them are not even known to me, personally and to
some of my own family members.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

Now just – and the Mr Agrizzi then

responds to your answer on page 73, he says this,
“I deny the allegations in relation to Nomvula Paula
Mokonyane

and/or

her

family

not

being

unduly

benefited by BOSASA and I state further that, she
did, in fact receive gratifications.

I further deny the

allegation that BOSASA never paid for the funerals
for any of her family relatives – her family members
then

over

the

specifically
expenses
20

page

that

–

I

on

signed

funeral

page
off

74,

I

state

more

documentation

expenses

of

Nomvula

and

Paula

Mokonyane’s late son. The funeral and the expense
related thereto was committed by myself together
with the employees of BOSASA, this entailed the
hiring of a marquee, tents, air-condition, flooring
together with the printing of memorial pamphlets
together

with

the

provision

Page 73 of 214

of

foods

and

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
refreshments.

I signed off docum ents for payment

by BOSASA in respect of the relative of Nomvula
Paula Mokonyane”,
Yo u s a y, y o u d e n y a l l o f t h i s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson as I have indicated, he

says he has signed off the funeral expenses, that is not
correct. We are the ones that procured the services of the
f u n e r a l u n d e r t a k e r, w e p a i d f o r t h e b u r i a l o f m y s o n a n d a s
to what BOSASA had contributed, like I do not know what
10

other people have contributed, I further deny that.
never

even

approached

by

BOSASA and

I

really

I was
take

offence of Agrizzi continuously making us to be such an
irresponsible fam ily that cannot even afford to bury their
own

child

nor

even

my

f a m i l y.

I

know

in

my

own

circumstances that there are many people who are coming
of our condolences and in many instances you don’t even
know who has done what and not even having approached
me and I really take exception, I take offence because he
has repeatedly dragged [speaking in African language] into
20

this game when even my son, is no more, he has even
gone to an extent of referring to him as a drug addict.

I

take exception and I refuse to accept, whatever that was a
contribution I can tell you that it is a contribution that
might have been done, not on the basis of what Agrizzi is
stating, that’s like any other person.
Page 74 of 214

Hence at the end of

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
every burial in our own culture, surely Chairperson, you’ll
know there’ll be an elder who’ll come and thank everybody
who has made contributions who has helped to take the
burden off your own shoulders when you are grieving but
for people to come now and want to sensationalise what
has happened to my son, and wants to make use of this
situation, it is not correct, the marquees and all those
kinds of things I have people that I know who have been
always supporting us we pay for those because others are
10

young people in Gauteng and in South Africa who are doing
all this – who are involved in the entertainment industry
including my own nephew who is involved and used to work
with those individuals.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, M r s M o k o n y a n e , w h e n y o u

drafted your answering affidavit, you must have noticed,
you must have read, that in paragraph 22.5 Mr Agrizzi says
that he was instructed to contact your personal assistant,
Sandy Thomas.

Now when you prepared your affidavit did

you ask Sandy Thomas about this, whether he was ever
20

contacted by Agrizzi?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson, yes, I have checked with

S a n d y. T h e r e w a s a n i n s t a n c e , j u s t o n c e , w h e r e t h e r e w a s
a storm and our alarm was continuously going on and
because of that – and I was not even home nor was my
services – service provider available because they were
Page 75 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
out in the field dealing with challenges that had effected,
even the flooding of some of the airports and so on and so
forth, that’s when then, Sandy got a call from my own
h u s b a n d t o s a y, n o t h e r e ’ s a p r o b l e m i n t h e h o u s e b e c a u s e
he wasn’t even at home, saying, can you check exactly
what is happening and can you assist and there was noone who could be of help and that’s when – because these
people were known to be also involved in dealing with
i s s u e s o f s e c u r i t y, t h e y c a m e a n d w h a t t h e y f o u n d w a s t h a t
10

there was a tree that fell on the fence and that was it, any
other thing, never except if there are things that have to do
with my availability for the programmes that have to do
with the CSI.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

S o r r y, I j u s t w a n t t o c l a r i f y s o m e t h i n g ,

are you saying that Sandy confirmed that he contacted
Agrizzi about the problem with your electric fence.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

He contacted BOSASA yes.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

She contacted BOSASA?

M S M O K O N YA N E :
20

Ye s s h e c o n t a c t e d G a v i n – s o r r y s h e

contacted BOSASA and in BOSASA she was referred to a
person that she would have to talk to on that particular
time and then because of the weather conditions she sent
a text message.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

But you’re saying she never contacted

or she had never had any interaction with Agrizzi?
Page 76 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No not to my knowledge.
N o w, s o r r y, j u s t t o h e l p m e C h a i r, w h y

did she contact BOSASA who told her to contact BOSASA?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

She was asked by my own husband,

b e c a u s e h e w a s t r y i n g t o g e t h o l d o f t h e s e c u r i t y c o m p a n y,
the electrician who were out 24/7, who were out in the field
because of the storm and everything and the only people
t h a t a r e i n t h e n e i g h b o u r h o o d t h a t s h e k n e w, c o u l d a c t u a l l y
come and assist, just come and check what is happening
10

with the alarm that is going on and off and that’s why she
sent the message, the simple thing is, can you please
com e and check I’m told in Ms Mokonyane’s house the
alarm is going on and off and there’s nobody around.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And is it your evidence that you didn’t

authorise her to call BOSASA?
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

No

and

I

can

even

confirm,

C h a i r p e r s o n , t h a t o n t h e w e e k e n d w h e r e t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s
actually issued a statement about actually flouted the rules
the
20

rules

of

this

Commission

and

publicised

A grizzi’s

s t a t e m e n t , m y h u s b a n d i m m e d i a t e l y r e s p o n d e d t o s a y, t h i s
is hog wash, he is responsible f or the security he’s got
service providers he knows what has happened around this
matter and that sms is still there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now you then, on page 29 you deal

with paragraph 22.5.1 where he says the assistance given
Page 77 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
by

BOSASA

include,

I’m

reading

his

affidavit

–

main

affidavit, include paying and organising funerals in respect
of deceased members…[intervenes].
M S M O K O N YA N E :

S o r r y, C h a i r, o n p a r a g r a p h ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

No I’m dealing with your paragraph on

page 29.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s
On page 29 you are dealing with his

paragraph 22.1 where he says,
10

“Paying of and organising funerals”,
Yo u d e n y t h a t a n d h i s r e s p o n s e i s m e r e l y, a l s o , h e ’ s
also denying that you are denying it, you won’t deny that?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No
And then on the same page you deal

with paragraph 22.2 or his affidavit, now in his affidavit
paragraph 22.2 he says,
“Something that was done…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m

sorry

I

think,

just

wait

for

Ms

Mokonyane to find…[intervenes].
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Paragraph 22.2 it’s on page 28 – no,

no, no you are – we’re at page 29 of your affidavit.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
But you are dealing with paragraph

22.2 but don’t worry about going to paragraph 22.2, I’ll
read it to you.
Page 78 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ja, it’s going to confuse if you are

going to run back and forth then in paragraph 22.5.2 he
says,
“BOSASA arranged for the rental of a vehicle for a
period of three months at a time through Blakes
Tr a v e l a p r e m i u m v e h i c l e s u c h a s A u d i A 3 f o r h e r
daughter when she visited from China where she
was studying”,
10

Now you deal with it on page 29 of the record,
paragraph 33.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And you are saying here this is - it was

for your daughter?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n , m y d a u g h t e r i s

South African and because of our own experiences of what
has happened to our two kids we opted to take her away
from

this

messy

environment

where

our

children

were

immediate targets. She studied at Roedean she flew all by
20

herself to China after we have opted and agreed with her
to go and further her studies in China.

She studied in

China, she can read, write she can even explain issues
that are related to trade and commerce in both Mandarin
and in English she can even try and explain it in Zulu or in
S e s o t h o . M y d a u g h t e r, e v e n b e f o r e s h e w e n t t o C h i n a , s h e
Page 79 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
used to do part-time jobs here at Silverstar in one of the
restaurants of a family friend that we know who offered to
train her about the work culture.

She would come back

from Roedean, from her boarding school and go and work
over the weekends twice a month and that has been the
culture that my daughter had.

She came back from China,

she’s been in China for almost 12 years, my daught er came
b a c k w h e n s h e n o w, c o u l d a c t u a l l y s p e a k , r e a d a n d w r i t e
and was also involved in the issues of translation and
10

interpretation, she was invited by Gavin, who has known
her as a little girl long before the positions of Government
and Gavin had an interest in understanding some of the
issues that he would have to deal with when it comes to
businesses in China and that has been the arrangement.
He

a c t u a l l y,

like

any

other

child

[speaking

in

African

language] and how you used to do the part-time jobs
during school holidays, plenty of us have done that.

He

w a s – s h e w a s o f f e r e d t h a t b e c a u s e , C h a i r, b e f o r e e v e n
this
20

whole

notion

of

politically

exposed

people,

my

children, my immediate family remain unemployed do not
get opportunities because of their identity and association
with me.

She was offered this opportunity and they made

the arrangement therefore, for Katleho to move around
from point A to point B doing that particular part-time job
whilst she was at home and this was an arrangement of two
Page 80 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
adults.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now he responds to that, because

what you are saying is also what you put in your affidavit.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now he responds to that on page 74,

he says on paragraph 30, he says,
“Save for noting the contents of this paragraph I
have no knowledge of the contents of the same but
I confirm that, on occasions when Nomvula Paula
10

Mokonyane’s

daughter

was

in

South

Africa

we

r e c e i v e d i n s t r u c t i o n s f r o m t h e l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n f o r
higher model vehicles for her daughter on at least
two occasions, of which two I personally dealt with.
I’m

over

the

page

on

page

75,

on

a

further

o c c a s i o n , F r a n s F o s t e r, a c t i n g o n t h e i n s t r u c t i o n s o f
l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n h i r e d a n d p e r s o n a l l y t o o k t h e c a r
to the house of Nomvula Paula Mokonyane, this was
an Audi A3 model vehicle.

I state further that

r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n a n d
20

Nomvula Paula Mokonyane together with looking
after all her and her family’s needs was mutually
beneficial

to

both

the

late

Gavin

Wa t s o n

BOSASA and Nomvula Paula Mokonyane.
Gavin

Wa t s o n

made

clear

to

myself

and

The late
and

other

Directorate, on various occasions that because of
Page 81 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Nomvula Paula Mokonyane’s relationship with late
G a v i n Wa t s o n a n d t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y a n d B O S A S A ,
which

extended

over

decades

of

time,

the

late

G a v i n Wa t s o n r e p e a t e d l y m a d e i t c l e a r t o m y s e l f
and

others

the

Government

important

and

at

a

positions

Provincial

evident that Nomvula Paula

she

level.

held
It

in

was

Mokonyane had the

respect and eminence in top Government settings
and
10

because

of

her

relationship

with

the…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I think, Mr Not she that’s too long by the

time you finish Ms Mokonyane might not remember all of
that, do you want to break it up to put to her what you want
her to deal with?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

All I want is your comment on the

issues he raises here.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

My facts still remains the same around

my daughter and secondly my issues that I have raised
about
20

how

influence

he
that

is

trying

to

give

I

have,

again

me

the

smacks

authority
of

an

act

and
of

desperation because for the record even Mr Nickson and
others do concede that they’ve checked through, there’s
never been where I’ve been responsible having to be able
to grant BOSASA any business opportunity or out of our
relationship they’ve been able to work in the space that I
Page 82 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
have been assigned to lead.
CHAIRPERSON:

Basically your response insofar as Mr

Agrizzi’s evidence relates to your daughter is, my daughter
i s a n a d u l t s h e h a s h a d a r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h t h e Wa t s o n
family for a long time and you don’t deny what she – what
i s w r i t t e n a b o u t h e r o r c a r s b e i n g h i r e d f o r h e r, a l l y o u a r e
saying

is

she

and

Mr

Gavin

Wa t s o n

had

their

own

relationship and they made their own arrangements, you
have nothing to do with that.
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s C h a i r.
That’s the gist of your answer?
Ye s C h a i r.
Ye s .
And as for the elaborations on 30.4

and so forth, I think, I would further challenge him to
substantiate this influence that he is referring to.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
Now on page 30 on paragraph 34 you

respond to Mr A grizzi’s affidavit, wherein he says,
20

“BOSASA also catered for several ANC rallies and
on your instructions”.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
forgot

the

Chairperson, again I actually realised I

constitution

of

the

ANC.

The

fund-raising

c o m m i t t e e o f t h e A N C i s h e a d e d b y t h e Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l
of the ANC.

There is a fund-raising committee and there
Page 83 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
are fund raising

initiatives it is not the individual, no

individual has the capacity and the ability to go all out and
go and look for resources, you have to actually work and
e v e n b e l e d b y a Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l o f t h e A f r i c a n N a t i o n a l
Congress.

I’ve never been a treasurer of the ANC, I’ve

been the treasurer of the South African Communist Party
h e r e i n G a u t e n g – i n t h e S o u t h e r n Tr a n s v a a l a n d I h a v e
been part of those who work and organise ANC events and
for the record I can’t deny that BOSASA had actually come
10

out to support the ANC in its initiatives.
CHAIRPERSON:

So, you accept that BOSASA supported

the ANC and may have funded some of its rallies as well
but what you are saying is, it was not at your request.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No, it would never be even at my

request, there are different, even ways of raising funds,
people make endorsements.

The ANC has never hidden

it’s fund raising initiatives, people have come to the gala
dinners of the ANC, people have been acknowledged, as I
have shown here, we even have a book with different
20

c o m p a n i e s i n c l u d i n g Te l k o m t h a t h a v e c o m e o u t p u b l i c l y t o
support a conference of the ANC.

S o I h a v e n e v e r, I d o n ’ t

have that authority and prior to every programme being
implemented you put what the resources are and what will
be required and together with the leadership of the ANC in
its

e n t i r e t y,

you

all

adopt

that

Page 84 of 214

programme

and

its

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
i m p l e m e n t a t i o n a n d t h a t ’ s w h y, e v e n , f o r t h e r e c o r d n o w,
I’m saying I can’t deny the fact that BOSASA supported the
ANC, I can’t deny the fact that BOSASA Office Park has
been on, more than one occasion, an elections operation
centre of the ANC, I can’t deny the fact that BOSASA has
also, not only worked with the African National Congress at
the National level but also the ANC, even here in the West
Rand Chair and our conferences hosting the Provincial
meetings of the ANC here in Gauteng providing foods, lunch
10

packs because of their kitchen capacity for our volunteers
and even providing for people who are coming to our rallies.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M O K O N YA N E : A n d l a s t l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t m a y b e w e s h o u l d s w i t c h o ff t h e a i r

c o n d i t i o n e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s p l e a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n I w a s r e f e r r e d t o
a T G M i n i s t e r w h e n I w a s s u p p o s e d t o m o v e t o a n o ff i c e
20

that has carpets.
M S M O K O N YA N E : H m .
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h i s i s m e C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , J a n o t h e n s w i t c h i t o ff .
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w i l l s w i t c h i t o ff . L e t m e u n d e r s t a n d
Page 85 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t l y. I f a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C …
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chairperson I think she is – wants to do
something.
M S M O K O N YA N E : C a n I ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
some

breaks

Chairperson she had asked me during

whether

she

can

bring

a

humidifier

or

something like that? I was not sure.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s o f c o u r s e .

Ye s , y e s .

Is it – is it

something you would like to have immediately?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s w e c a n p r o c e e d b u t I w i l l b r i n g i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No that is fine.

I just want to

understand your evidence correct – properly with regard to
fund

raising

and

individual

members

of

the

ANC

or

individual leaders of the ANC. If I am a member of the ANC
or if I am one of the leaders of the ANC can I not approach
a c o m p a n y a n d s a y, y o u k n o w t h e A N C i s g o i n g t o h a v e a
function or a rally or whatever or meeting can you please
contribute or sponsor that function or contribute to whatever
20

expenses the party is going to be – party is going to incur in
regard to that function to make it a success?

Can I not go

to a company as an individual get them to agree and maybe
once they have agreed I then tell the formal structure that I
h a v e s p o k e n t o B O S A S A o r w h o – Te l k o m w i l l y o u t h e n t a k e
it from there when they will – they will expect your letter Mr
Page 86 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l o r s o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
opposite.
committee

In fact, Chair what happens is the

The fund raising committee sits, the fund-raising
and

the

GG

together

with

those

that

are

responsible for organising will also come together and other
o ff i c i a l s . We w i l l i d e n t i f y t h e n e e d a n d w e w i l l i d e n t i f y w h a t
n e e d s t o b e d o n e a n d t h e C h a i r w h o i s t h e Tr e a s u r e r o f t h e
ANC is the one then who will go out and identify those that
have to be approached.
10

Others voluntarily come forward.

T h e y c o m e t o t h e A N C a n d s a y, w h a t c a n w e h e l p y o u w i t h ?
We want to endorse your manifesto how can we lend a
hand?

We subscribe to your mission, how can we do that?

T h e n t h e Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l w i l l t h e n m a k e a l l o f y o u t o
make a follow up depending on what you are responsible
f o r. I f I h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i l i t y o f f i l l i n g t w o s t a d i u m s b a c k t o
back

at

the

same

time

I

would

be

assigned

the

responsibility of chairing the mobilisation committee of the
ANC and knowing everything about who is going to be a
Marshall, who is going – when are we going to get the
20

stadium, when are people going to come?

People have to

be fed, where are we getting the resources and there will be
d i ff e r e n t w o r k s t r e a m s a n d f i n a l l y t h e a u t h o r i t y g e t s s i g n e d
o ff b y a n o r g a n i s a t i o n t h r o u g h a n o r g a n i s a t i o n a l p r o c e s s .
Yo u c a n n o t j u s t – y o u d o n o t d o t h i n g s o n y o u r o w n b e c a u s e
at the end of the day the party must actually account.
Page 87 of 214

And

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
hence post the event there will be a token of appreciation
t h a t g o e s t o t h e s p o n s o r s t o s a y, [ A f r i c a n l a n g u a g e ] .

Yo u

know I do not know how to say it in English but that is how
we do it. [African language] and they will do that and they
would – they would even say proudly sponsored by so and
s o l i k e y o u s e e w i t h t h e Te l k o m b o o k , i t i s n o t a s e c r e t a n d
t h e d i ff e r e n t t e l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n b u s i n e s s e s t h a t i s w h a t
would happen Chairperson.

A n d f i n a l l y, y o u t h e n w h e n y o u

run a command centre for an event like Nomvula being the
10

Head of Organising in the ANC you then have to know when
is the food coming?

When are the Marshalls going to eat?

Have the food been delivered at the pick-up points of the –
of the thing – of the – the pick-up points of the glasses and
all those things are not necessarily you but because this
person acts like you know in this particular way he thinks I
am the alpha and omega of the ANC.

N e v e r, t h e r e a r e

structures and systems to deal with these matters.
CHAIRPERSON: But are you saying it is not allowed by the
ANC or an individual member or leader unless they are…
20

M S M O K O N YA N E : A s s i g n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Tr e a s u r y

General

or

specifically

assigned?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

They

are

not

allowed

to

approach

potential funders or sponsors and ask to sponsor and then
Page 88 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
get the organisation or the relevant structure to formalise
the arrangement later?
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o . Yo u – w h e n y o u h a v e a c o n t a c t y o u
m u s t p r e s e n t i t b e f o r e t h e Tr e a s u r e r G e n e r a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M O K O N YA N E : A n d t o t h e c o m m i t t e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

And

then

it

must

then

be

institutionalised and made to be part of the thing.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now Chair just in this – in this case I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u k n e w t h e Wa t s o n s b e f o r e e v e n A N C b r o u g h t
him to government?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I h a v e k n o w n t h e Wa t s o n s f r o m a s f a r

back as pre-Democracy yes.

I have known them.

I have

k n o w n a c t u a l l y R o n n i e Wa t s o n b e f o r e I c a m e t o k n o w G a v i n
Wa t s o n . I h a v e w o r k e d w i t h R o n n i e Wa t s o n . I h a v e m e t t h e
Wa t s o n

family

when

I

was

part

of

the

National

Civic

Organisation and when we were under the UDF organising
20

the consumer boycott and one of the areas that had the
longest consumer boycott was in Port Elizabeth and here
citizen in Kagiso in Mogale.

One of the longest boycotts

that even took out Greyhounds that that entity today has no
–

that

company

that

operates

because

we

took

out

Greyhound which was colluding with the apartheid system
Page 89 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
and the [indistinct 00:07:07] who were actually killing our
people. When there was the Rowntree strike by the unions,
I was a trade journalist.

I know that period.

I also met

them when there was that – those long strikes and with
various other acts and I also know them for having assisted
the ANC in our ready to govern programme where they took
people like Popo Molefe and many other people including
m y s e l f t o t h e Wa t s o n S c h o o l o f B u s i n e s s .
there.
10

And we all went

W e w e r e j o i n e d b y I t h i n k i t Va l a n c e Wa t s o n w h o

went with us or Ronnie I cannot recall but that is how far
b a c k I k n o w t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y.

I have also known their

g e n e r o s i t y w h e n t h e r e w a s n o t e n d e r.

When they used to

support the detainees.

When they used to support the

underground operations.

And when the issue of BOSASA

and the relationship with the ANC came it was a natural –
n a t u r a l r e l a t i o n s h i p o f Te n o f i g h t e r s c o m i n g t o g e t h e r, Te n o
freedom fighters coming together and their commitment and
option to support the ANC was not something that I would
actually frown upon compared to maybe getting Fidelity
20

Guards I do not know Fidelity Guards except them being
SGS I know it.

So that is how I relate with that – with that

s i t u a t i o n o f k n o w i n g t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
BOSASA

volunteered

Now are you saying then that the
on

their

own?

We

have

heard

someone introducing them to the ANC to support the ANC?
Page 90 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

BOSASA –

members of the ANC.

the

Wa t s o n

family

are

And I think they – it was out of their

own conviction and the love for this country that they have
always been generous even before BOSASA was there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w w h e n t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y w a s

involved then in BOSASA and they had government tenders,
rendering services to government it is not a problem to the
ANC that they would continue supporting the ANC?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

I do not want to speak for the African

National Congress here.

I have come to present myself but

still I do not believe that there was anything untoward. As I
have said we have seen even an SOE coming out publicly to
support

the

African

National

Congress.

Golf

courses,

P r e m i e r ’s g o l f c o u r s e s , [ i n d i s t i n c t 0 0 : 0 9 : 4 0 ] g o l f c o u r s e s ,
Presidents golf courses all these activities are funded and
supported by the private sector who many of them have got
things to do.
00:09:55]

Not only the black business was [indistinct

those

that

are

in

the

everybody endorsing our events.
20

Zuma’s time.

wine

industries

and

Not only during Jacob

Even during Madiba’s time.

Even during

Comrade Thabo Mbeki’s time, Comrade Kgalema’s times.
Business has been quite good for the African National
C o n g r e s s t h o s e w h o b e l i e v e i n w h a t t h e A N C s t a n d s f o r.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now Agrizzi’s response to your answer

on page 75 paragraph 31 she says – and she denies that
Page 91 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
you – you never approached the himself or the BOSASA to
cater for ANC rallies.

He says I am reading on page 76:

“The true and correct position is and is that on numerous
occasions for election galas and on occasion and for ANC
Leghotla BOSASA set up funded and catered for various
municipal, provincial and general elections.

On numerous

occasions this was at Nomvula Paula Mokonyane request to
l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n . ”
Because you say you deny this.
10

M S M O K O N YA N E : N o i t w i l l n o t b e a t m y p e r s o n a l r e q u e s t .
I have never done that.

But he is also just showing how he

is so naïve on understanding the ANC.

The Head of

organising he is responsible for organising the ANC must
provide the resources.

They Head of organising is not the

convenor of the Leghotla.

Leghotla is convened by the SG

of the African National Congress.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now on page – whilst we are still on

page 76 he says:
“I am attaching hereto as annexure AG1 a copy of an email
20

dated

15

April

2 0 11

addressed

to

Nomvula

Paula

M o k o n y a n e i n h e r o ff i c i a l e m a i l r e p o r t i n g t o h e r o n t h e A N C
call centre.”
And that AG1 is on page 99.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s i t i s a b o u t t h e c a l l c e n t r e .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . D o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h i s ?
Page 92 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I know the call – about the call centre

and it was the call centre for the ANC operations it does not
form [indistinct 00:12:24].
ADV NOTSHE SC:

But he says here and I am looking at

AG1 you excuse me at times this tricks me this – when the
emails are printed.
M S M O K O N YA N E : W h e r e i s i t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Here it seems as if there is…
M S M O K O N YA N E : I t i s o n ?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

P a g e 9 9 s o r r y.

Page 99.

There at the

top there is an email seemed to be from Agrizzi and it is – it
is

to

Nomvula.Mokonyane@gautenggov

–

is

that A and

S a n d y t h e n i n b r a c k e t s N o m v u l a p a c a l l o n G a v i n Wa t s o n
then decided to support.

So it seems as if here if I

u n d e r s t a n d i t A g r i z z i s e n t a n e m a i l t o y o u o n t h e 11 A p r i l
2 0 11 .
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

It

was

about

the

Ops

centre

for

elections of the…
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Mokonyane.

I am sorry before you – you respond Ms

Mr Notshe read this – the email if – is the one

at the bottom supposed to be an attachment to the one at
the top or what?

I see it says sent via mobile e-phone and

then it says begin forwarded message.
the bottom what was being sent by…
M S M O K O N YA N E : A g r i z z i .
Page 93 of 214

Is the message at

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON: From Mr Agrizzi?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It seems as if the message at the

b o t t o m i s – A g r i z z i s e n d s t h e m e s s a g e t h a t f o l l o w e d b e l o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

So if that is the message that

he sent or – then you – I think you must just read it so that
we know what it says before she responds.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Well the message is – is from Agrizzi

C h i e f O p e r a t i o n s O ff i c e r, B O S A S A G r o u p

of Companies

Mogale Business Centre in Gauteng. And it is from Agrizzi.
10

– angeloagrizzi@bosasa.com and jenapieters@bosasa.com
and then the phone numbers.

Then being forwarded.

And

what is forwarded it seems as if it is from Johan Fourie,
fourie@ - johan.fourie@bosasa.com and that email was to
s e n d t o t h o m a s @ g a u t e n g . g o v. z a a n d t h e n t h e r e p o r t s a n d
then the contents reads:
“Dear Sandy attached for your perusal and comment are the
following reports on the election contact centre activities.
1. Call statistics on the 13 and 14 April.
2. Canvassing information reports to date.
20

And then he say please let me know if there is anything else
you would like reporting on or the formatting of the reports.
If you find these reports useful, I can mail them to you on a
daily basis.”
And then over the page and then it is Johan Fourie BOSASA
IT Pty Ltd and then – and then it warns people think before
Page 94 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
you print. And then there is an email from – attachments of
an email from Agrizzi to send to Thomas.
“As discussed, we will send reports through.”
And it is from Agrizzi. And then from 102 Chair it is a whole
host of – reports.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying those are reports from 102
– page 102?
A D V N O T S H E S C : 1 0 2 t o 11 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

So Ms Mokonyane it seems as if Agrizzi

who sent you an email on the 15 April giving this report.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

My take through you Chair is that the

message was forwarded from Johan Fourie to Sandy and in
this very email it is all about the operations of an election.
There is no conviction that is said that on condition you
deal with this for us or on condition you stand to benefit on
t h i s m a t t e r.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I think Ms Mokonyane what is Agrizzi is

trying to say here – remember he says no, I know Ms
20

Mokonyane and he says I even sent an email, received an
e m a i l , s e n t a n e m a i l t o h e r. A n d t h a t i s w h y h e s a y s :
“I am attaching hereto.”
I a m r e a d i n g h i s a ff i d a v i t .
“I am attaching hereto AG1 a copy of an email dated 15
A p r i l 2 0 11 a d d r e s s e d t o N o m v u l a P a u l a M o k o n y a n e i n h e r
Page 95 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
o ff i c i a l e m a i l r e p o r t i n g t o h e r o n t h e A N C c a l l c e n t r e . ”
And then she says this – he say this is important.
“This was done at her request.”
M S M O K O N YA N E :

It could not have been done at my

request because it was not for my personal consumption.
All that we needed is the Head of organising and elections
was to be continuously be giving the update and have a
program

an

operation

centre

that

will

help

the African

National Congress to know the developments in terms of
10

canvassing and in terms of the voter turnout.

And of

importance you can see when Johan Fourie responded they
actually

communicated

directly

with

Sandy

who

is

my

personal assistant and they even indicated there that if they
find these reports useful they will then come back. And that
was what actually happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do

you

recall

specifically

this

communication or you do not recall it necessarily but you
are saying this is what would happened?

This would have

been the context?
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson when we set programs for

elections we go on site where we will be operating from.
Whether it is in Luthuli House, whether it was in Shell
House, whether it is at the BOSASA Conference you sit with
all your teams, you work on the program.

And most of the

people who were on the IT side were the ones who were
Page 96 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
communicating directly with us.

They are the ones who set

the programs that the African National Conference required.
And for them to then report to the ANC it was an obvious
case.

I may not remember this record but it is an obvious

case.

They will not just go and look for an administrator in

the ANC they will look for the Head of elections.

Thus,

does the taxis owners from Thatha would also be looking for
me when we have to sort out the pick-up points and when
we have to work out how we are going to fill up two
10

stadiums at the same time back to back.
CHAIRPERSON:

I think part of the point that Mr Agrizzi

seeks to make through providing this email as I understand
i t m a y b e t h i s t h a t o n h i s v e r s i o n , h e s a y s i n e ff e c t h e h a d a
l o t o f i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h y o u . Yo u r e m e m b e r w h e n w e s t a r t e d
h i s a ff i d a v i t – i n h i s a ff i d a v i t h e s a i d b u s i n e s s m e e t i n g s o r
social visits.
p a r t y.

He even said he attended your 50th birthday

But he also says that in a number of meetings he

w a s w i t h M r G a v i n Wa t s o n a n d y o u r s e l f .

He says in other

m e e t i n g s y o u w o u l d h a v e m e t M r G a v i n Wa t s o n w i t h o u t h i m .
20

But he says some of the meetings he was there.

He seems

t o s a y, I h a v e h a d a l o t o f i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h M s N o m v u l a
Mokonyane but when one reads your response it seems to
suggest that you have not had any interaction with Mr Gavin
Wa t s o n .
M S M O K O N YA N E : W i t h A g r i z z i .
Page 97 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:
even minimal.

Maybe minimal but you might say not

Yo u d i d n o t h a v e a n y i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h h i m

and maybe through this email he is saying, here is just one
i n s t a n c e w h e r e I h a v e i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h h e r o ff i c e .
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Agrizzi – Mr Agrizzi will not know what

was discussed in meetings and everything that I was in
c o n t a c t w i t h M r G a v i n Wa t s o n o n .
feature

when

now

we

He would – he will only

operation

alive

these

kind

of

activities. And that is when you will come across him at the
10

site when he would come across and meet us and tell us
that we will work with Johan Fourie and all those things.
But all the arrangements would have been an arrangement
that BOSASA had done directly with the ANC and not with
m e p e r s o n a l l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now Ms Mokonyane just to – before we

l e a v e o ff t h i s p o i n t . Te l l m e h o w w o u l d M r A g r i z z i …
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry we – we are at three minutes

p a s t o n e a l r e a d y.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair can I just one question then I

leave AG1.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

When would Mr Agrizzi have obtained

your email address?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

They would have obtained my email
Page 98 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
address from the contacts and the – they would have
obtained my contacts from the interactions that we have had
with BOSASA and us in terms of preparing for the ANC’s
activities.

O b v i o u s l y, y o u w i l l n e e d t o g i v e c o n t a c t s t o o n e

a n o t h e r t o s a y, t h i s i s h o w w e w i l l c o m m u n i c a t e a n d s o o n
and so forth.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay alright.

Let us take the lunch

a d j o u r n m e n t . We w i l l r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
10

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S :
ADV NOTSHE SC: I wish the proceedings were under a tree
o u t si d e . I t i s s o n i c e a n d w a rm o u t s i d e t h a n i n si d e h e re .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] Ye s, b u t I h e a r s o m e a i r c o n n o i s e
a n d I t h i n k t h e w i t n e s s h a d a p r o b l e m e a rl i e r o n . A n d I t h i n k
l e t u s s w i t ch i t o ff .

I ce rt a i n l y d i d n o t f e e l b e f o r e l u n c h t h a t

s w i t c h i n g i t o ff m a d e i t c o l d e r. M s M o k o n y a n e , I t h i n k b e f o re
lunch

we

had

switched

it

o ff

because

it

was

c a u si n g

problems for you.
20

MS

M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s,

it

does

a ff e ct

the

h e a ri n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : . . . w i t h t h i s t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

A l ri g h t .

Thank you.

Notshe.
Page 99 of 214

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w M s M o k o n ya n e , w e d e a l w i t h o n

p a g e 3 1 , w h e r e w e d e a l w i t h w h e r e Mr A g ri z z i sa i d B O S A S A
a l s o p r o vi d e d c a t e ri n g .

H e s a y s i t p r o vi d e d ca t e ri n g f o r

s u p p o rt e r s a t P r e si d e n t Z u m a ’s b i rt h d a y p a rt i e s, a t a m o n g st
o t h e r s, t h e p o o l h o u se a n d f o r h i s p ri v a t e b i rt h d a y p a r t i e s.
And in essence, by way of example Annexure G a
p h o t o g ra p h o f a c a k e t h a t h e a r ra n g e d f o r P re s i d e n t Z u m a ’s
7 2 n d b i rt h d a y.

N o w y o u re s p o n d e d t o t h a t .

W h a t i s yo u r

re s p o n s e t o t h a t ? Yo u r r e s p o n s e i s o n p a g e 3 1 .
10

M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s.

A s I h a v e st a t e d b e f o r e a n d a s

re f l e ct e d i n t h i s p a r a g ra p h C h a i r p e r s o n .

I wish to again,

i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e p r o vi si o n o f a l l t h e s e t h i n g s h a d t o d o w i t h
t h e d i ff e re n t a n d m a n y o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d i n . . .
i t w a s n o t m y d i r e ct i n v o l ve m e n t .
I t w a s a f t e r t h e i n t e r e st o f e v e r y o n e w h o w i sh t o . . . w i s h
P r e si d e n t J a c o b Z u m a a h a p p y b i rt h d a y a n d i t h a s h a p p e n e d
e v e n n o w w i t h M a n d e l a D a y a n d e v e n t h e P r e si d e n t Th a b o
20

M b e ki ’s b i rt h d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w j u st o n t h a t , M a ’ a m .

Yo u . . . i f t h i s

w a s d o n e b y, a n d a t t h e e xp e n s e o f B O S A S A , w o u l d t h a t n o t
b e a p r o b l e m , a b i rt h d a y p a rt y ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
that

t h e re

were

I cannot deal with the if.
d i ff e r e n t

things

that

Page 100 of 214

All I know is

happened

on

that

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
p a rt i c u l a r d a y a t t h e p a rt y a n d b e f o r e .

I do not see myself

being able to make a judgment.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, w i l l i t b e p r o p e r f o r a p e r s o n w h o

h a s a t e n d e r w i t h g o ve r n m e n t t o s p o n s o r a b i rt h d a y p a rt y o f
p a rt y o ff i ci a l s o r g o v e r n m e n t o ff i ci a l s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

C h a i r p e r s o n , I d o n o t f i n d i t a ct u a l l y

b e i n g i m p r o p e r.

As I have said and I have proved here that

even

have

an

SOE

come

out

to

s u p p o rt

a ct i vi t i e s

of

p r e si d e n t s o f p r e m i e r s a n d t h a t w a s a l s o w h a t B O S A S A h a s
10

done.

N o t o n l y t o P r e si d e n t Z u m a ’s b i rt h d a y b u t t o m a n y

o t h e r a ct i vi t i e s o f t h e A N C a n d i n d i v i d u a l s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w, M r A g ri z zi r e s p o n d s t o yo u r a n s w e r
a n d h i s r e sp o n s e a n d h e s a y s:
“I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h e a ct u a l ro l e i n r e s p e ct o f
t h e c a t e ri n g f o r P r e si d e n t Z u m a ’s b i rt h d a y p a rt i e s
which were arranged mainly by Dudu Myeni but I
st a t e f u rt h e r t h a t , a t t h e sp e ci f i c r e q u e st o f N o m v u l a
Paula Mokonyane, and over and above the use of
B O S A S A’s p r e m i s e s f o r co n f e re n c e s, e l e ct i o n s, c a l l
20

c e n t r e s o n t h e d i v e r s e o c c a si o n s w h e n t h e T h u l i
House
c a t e ri n g

celebrated
were

P r e si d e n t

done

Nomvula

Z u m a ’s
Paula

re q u e st a n d w a s f u n d e d b y B O S A S A ”.
And you deny this?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
Page 101 of 214

b i rt h d a y,

all

M o k o n ya n e ’s

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC: Now we then on the same page, page 81.
We a r e d e a l i n g w i t h t h e . . . w h a t i s st a t e d b y M r A g r i z zi i n p a rt
o f 8 2 . 5 . 5 o f h i s m a i n a ff i d a vi t . H e s a y s:
“They

also

R o o d e p o o rt

did

maintenance

which

i n cl u d e d

at

your

maintaining

house

in

e l e ct ri c

f e n ci n g , g e n e r a t o r s, C C T V ’s, g a r d e n i n g , p o o l g a t e s
and lightning...”
O n t h i s. . . y o u r r e s p o n s e i s o n p a g e 3 1 .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

A n d m y r e s p o n s e r e m a i n s a s i t i s.

a s I h a ve a l s o i n d i c a t e d .

And

There is even an SMS where my

h u sb a n d r e s p o n d e d w h e n t h e m e d i a q u e ri e d a b o u t w h a t
e x a ct l y h a d h a p p e n e d a t w h a t i s a l l e g e d b y M r A g ri z zi .
A n d a t n o p o i n t h a s h e e v e r i n d i c a t e d t h a t I h a ve a s k e d
him

and

my

husband

has

a l so

indicated

that

he

took

re s p o n si b i l i t y.
A n d d u ri n g m y t e n y e a r s a t t h e M E C a n d t h e P r e m i e r,
t h o se r e sp o n si b i l i t i e s o f t h e s e c u ri t y w e r e p r o vi d e d b y t h e
20

st a t e b u t e v e n n o w, w h e r e M r N i xo n h a s a l s o c o n f i r m e d t h a t
h e h a s n o t f o u n d a n yt h i n g t h a t i s a ct u a l l y r a i s e d b y M r
A g ri z zi ’s a ff i d a vi t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w j u st . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st o n e s e c o n d b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d . I j u st
w a n t t o f i n d o u t f ro m t h e t r a n s cri b e r s w h e t h e r t h e y a r e a b l e
Page 102 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
to hear the witness properly with the mask on or not?
U N I D E N T I F I E D S P E A K E R : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y ?
U N I D E N T I F I E D S P E A K E R : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, b u t s h e . . . I t h i n k s h e s a i d s h e h a s

s o m e c o n d i t i o n s.

I think she would prefer to put the mask

o n . I s t h a t ri g h t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I w i l l t r y a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, w e h a v e t o p u t i t o n i f p o s si b l e .
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :

I would prefer for the ease of the

C o m m i s si o n , l e t u s p r o c e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

We l l , I j u st w a n t e d t o f i n d o u t

b e ca u s e i f t h e y c a n h e a r p r o p e rl y t h e n y o u c o u l d k e e p i t o n ,
b u t i f t h e y ca n n o t h e a r p r o p e rl y i t w o u l d a ff e ct w h a t t h e y
t y p e f o r t h e t r a n s c ri p t .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I think we will wait.

Probably it is a long

st o r y. [ l a u g h s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : J a .
20

CHAIRPERSON: That they will tell me.
M S M O K O N YA N E : O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, i t i s a s i f t h e y a r e s t r u g g l i n g t o

hear the witness with the mask on.

Even my junior says

e v e n h e r si t t i n g t h e r e , s h e i s st r u g g l i n g t o h e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 103 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : I w i l l co n t i n u e C h a i r p e r so n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t .
M S M O K O N YA N E : [ S p e a ki n g v e r n a c u l a r]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] O k a y. [ S p e a ki n g ve r n a cu l a r] T h e
w i t n e s s j u st s a i d s h e w i l l b e . . . s h e g e t s si c k w h e n s h e g e t s
home.

I a m h o p i n g sh e w i l l n o t g e t si c k.

[ l a u g h s]

O k a y.

A l ri g h t .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, i f w e l e t t h e w i t n e s s, I h a v e g o t a

[ s p e a ki n g v e r n a c u l a r] I t i s v e r y g o o d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : [ l a u g h s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : We ca n s o rt i t o u t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

Okay let us continue.

S h e j u st . . .

s h e g a v e a n a n s w e r t o M r A g ri z zi ’s e vi d e n c e t h a t B O S A S A
p r o vi d e d t h e m a i n t e n a n c e o f c e rt a i n s e c u ri t y f e a t u r e s a t
h o m e . Yo u w a n t t o t a k e i t f ro m t h e r e M r N o t s h e ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s.

Ye s C h a i r.

N o w, M s M o k o n ya n e

y o u . . . t h e r e . . . i t i s c o n f i rm e d a l s o o n t h e m i n u t e t h a t w a s
si g n e d b y t h e l a w y e r s a f t e r t h e y vi si t e d y o u r h o u s e t h a t
20

when one enters your yard, there is a guard house on the
l e f t . I s t h a t co r r e ct ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, i t i s t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And it is manned, that the guards were

there?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
Page 104 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d su p p o s e d l y, t h e y h a d t o ch e c k w h o

c o m e s i n . . . w h o i s c o m i n g i n t o t h e h o u se t h e re ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, n o o n e w o u l d b e a b l e t o c o m e t o

y o u r h o u s e t o d o m a i n t e n a n ce w i t h o u t g o i n g p a s s t h o s e
people?
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o o n e w o u l d d o t h a t , y e s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d h a v e y o u e v e r r e c e i v e d t h e r e p o rt

t h a t t h e re w e r e u n a u t h o ri s e d p e o p l e w h o c a m e t o y o u r h o u s e
10

t o d o re p a i r s l i k e y o u . . . p e o p l e w h o w e r e n o t a u t h o r i s e d b y
your family?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I h a v e n e v e r re c e i v e d a r e p o rt , o t h e r

than the people that I know that have been doing work in the
house.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d y o u r e a d t h e a ff i d a vi t a n d y o u h a v e
h e a r d t h e e vi d e n c e o f C h a rl l e R o u x ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s?
ADV NOTSHE SC: And his file is not far from you, where he
s a y s, h e w e n t a n d i d e n t i f i e d t h e h o u se w h e r e h e d i d s o m e
20

re p a i r s a n d i t i s y o u r h o u se .
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I do not know what he has done.

n o t p e r m y i n st r u ct i o n .

It was

A l l I k n o w i s t h a t w e h a d r e q u e st e d

t h e m t o g o a n d h e l p u s w i t h a n a l a rm t h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d
o ff .
And that is all that we have asked them to do per the
Page 105 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
i n st r u ct i o n s f r o m m y l a t e h u s b a n d , w h o , a s I h a ve s a i d , i n
h i s o w n S M S , a f t e r t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s st o ry, h e a ct u a l l y s a i d
h e i s r e s p o n si b l e p e r s o n a l l y f o r t h e s e r vi c e s t h a t h a s t o d o
w i t h t h e s e c u ri t y a n d t h e m a i n t e n a n c e o f t h e h o u s e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, j u st o n e t h i n g .

T h e o n e i n st a n c e

w h i c h y o u s a y w a s a u t h o r i se d b y y o u r h u sb a n d , d i d yo u r
family pay for that?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I d o n o t k n o w.

As I have said.

Those

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o rr y.

I a m s o r r y.

I did not hear the

q u e st i o n cl e a rl y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

O h , s o rr y.

T h e q u e st i o n i s.

In the one

i n st a n c e w h e r e s h e a d m i t s t h a t t h e re p a i r s w e r e d o n e a t t h e
re q u e st o f h e r h u s b a n d .

T h e q u e s t i o n i s, d i d h e . . . d i d sh e

p a y f o r. . . o r t h e f a m i l y p a i d f o r t h o s e r e p a i r s?
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M S M O K O N YA N E : A s I h a ve st a t e d C h a i r p e r s o n . T h e se a r e
the

r e s p o n si b i l i t i e s

that

my

husband

would

take

re s p o n si b i l i t y t h e r e o f . A s t o w h e t h e r h e w a s i n v o i c e d o r n o t ,
20

t h a t r e m a i n s a n i s s u e t h a t I c a n n o t c o m e a n d s u b st a n t i a t e
here.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w i s y o u r e vi d e n c e M s M o k o n y a n e , i f I
u n d e r st a n d i t , t h a t C h a rl l e R o u x c o u l d h a v e d o n e w o r k a t
y o u r p l a c e b u t h e w a s n o t a u t h o ri s e d b y y o u ?
Page 106 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : H e w a s n e v e r a u t h o ri s e d b y m e C h a i r.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d yo u d i d n o t B O S A S A f o r w o r k

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : S o r r y m i s s. Yo u d i d n o t p a y B O S A S A f o r
w o r k t h a t w a s d o n e b y C h a rl l e R o u x.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I do not know whether they were paid or

not paid for the intervention with regards to the fence that
h a d b ro k e n .
10

A n d a n y o t h e r e xt r a w o r k, I a m s a yi n g f o r t h e

re c o r d , a n d a l s o w o u l d b e t e xt e d t h a t m y h u s b a n d r e s p o n d e d
t o t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s, h e t o o k t h e re s p o n si b i l i t y o f t h e
u p ke e p a n d t h e s e c u ri t y o f t h e h o u s e . O n l y f r o m 2 0 1 4 w h e n
I m o v e d f r o m G a u t e n g a n d b e c a m e a m i n i st e r.
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w, d i d y o u f i n d o u t f r o m yo u r h u sb a n d
w h e n t h e r e p o rt c a m e i n t h e n e w s p a p e r s a b o u t r e p a i r s a t
y o u r h o u se , w h e t h e r h e p a i d f o r t h o s e r e p a i r s?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

M y h u s b a n d a ct u a l l y r e s p o n d e d i n t h a t

S MS t o s a y t h e y t o o k h i m . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] b e c a u s e h e h a s t a k e n
re s p o n si b i l i t y. T h e n t h a t t e xt i s t h e re . W h a t t h e y d i d b e y o n d
20

t h a t , I d o n o t k n o w.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w. . . a n d st i l l yo u r a n s w e r i s t h a t y o u

did not ask him whether he paid for it or not?
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

No,

I

would

not

a s k.

It

is

his

re s p o n si b i l i t y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I se e .

N o w o n p a g e 3 2 o f t h e re c o r d .

Page 107 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
T h a t i s p a r a g ra p h 3 7 . 2 . Yo u s a y t h a t yo u r. . . y o u sa y:
“I n e v e r r e q u e st e d B O S A S A . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m so r r y M r N o t sh e .

Maybe let us

a p p r o a c h t h i s d i ff e r e n t l y. Yo u k n o w t h e t h r u st o f M r A g r i z zi ’s
e vi d e n c e a g a i n st y o u i s t h a t B O S A S A h a d i n e ff e ct a s p e c i a l
re l a t i o n s h i p w i t h y o u o r M r G a vi n Wa t s o n h a d a s p e ci a l
re l a t i o n s h i p w i t h y o u .

A s p e ci a l r e l a t i o n s h i p , m a y b e i s m y

p h r a s e , n o t h i s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : H ’ m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s I u n d e r st a n d h i s e vi d e n ce . H e s a y s
y o u w e r e cl o s e .

I do not know whether I can go as far

s a yi n g y o u w e r e f ri e n d s b u t yo u w e re cl o s e . T h a t i s y o u r s e l f
a n d M r G a vi n Wa t s o n .
H e g o e s o n t o s a y, B O S A S A g a v e y o u r p r e s e n t s a n d
g a ve y o u m o n e y m o n t h l y a s yo u w o u l d h a ve h e a r d .

And he

s a y s a l l t h e s e , f r o m w h a t M r G a vi n Wa t s o n t o l d h i m , t h a t i s
M r A g ri z z i ,

was

done

e ff e ct i v e l y

to

buy

your

influence

b e ca u s e h e s a y s M r G a vi n Wa t s o n k e p t o n sa yi n g t o h i m t h a t
y o u a r e a v e r y i n f l u e n t i a l p e r s o n b o t h i n g o v e rn m e n t a n d i n
20

t h e r u l i n g p a rt y.
And that BOSASA needed to treat you very well because
you

would

p r o vi d e

them

with

p r o t e ct i o n

with

regard

to

i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e b e i n g c o n d u ct e d b y t h e S I U a n d
p r o t e ct i o n f r o m p r o s e cu t i o n , c ri m i n a l p r o s e c u t i o n .
A n d h e s a y s t h a t M r G a v i n Wa t s o n e m p h a si s e d t h a t y o u
Page 108 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
h a d i n f l u e n c e w i t h t h e f o rm e r P re s i d e n t , M r Ja c o b Z u m a .
N o w y o u h a ve a l r e a d y s a i d yo u n e v e r g o t a n y. . . re c e i v e d
a n y p r e s e n t s o r g i f t s f ro m B O S A S A p e r s o n a l l y. A n d I t h i n k i n
y o u r a ff i d a vi t , yo u d e n y h a vi n g r e c e i v e d a n y m o n e y.
And

one

of

the

things

that

M r A g ri z zi

said

in

his

e vi d e n c e i s t h a t t h e r e w e r e t w o o c c a si o n s o n w h i c h h e w a s
p r e s e n t w h e n y o u w e r e g i ve n m o n e y b y M r G a vi n Wa t s o n .
O n e o f t h o se o c c a si o n , h e s a i d , i t w a s i n yo u r h o u s e.
H e sa y s h e h a d b e e n a s ke d b y M r G a vi n Wa t so n t o
10

p r e p a re t h e m o n e y a n d p u t i t i n a b a g a n d t h e y l e f t i t o n a
c h a i r f o r yo u i n y o u r h o u s e .
N o w y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t w i t h r e g a rd t o s e c u ri t y i s s u e s i n
t h e h o u s e , y o u n e v e r a s k e d B O S A S A t o d o a n yt h i n g f o r y o u
a n d y o u r f a m i l y.

A n d I t h i n k yo u s a i d M r A g ri z zi h a s n e ve r

been to your house.
A n d y o u m u st t e l l m e i f I m i s u n d e r st a n d h i s e vi d e n c e .
S o w h e n i t c o m e s t h e s e i s s u e s, i t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t i n p u t t i n g
y o u r si d e , y o u p r o vi d e w h a t r e a s o n y o u w o u l d h a ve , h o w M r
G a vi n Wa t s o n . . . h o w M r A g ri z zi w o u l d k n o w s o m e o f t h e
20

f e a t u r e s i n yo u r h o u se i f h e h a d n o t b e e n t h e r e . S o I t h i n k i t
i s i m p o rt a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e t h i n g s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h , C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I n t h e s u b m i s s i o n t h a t h e s a y s, I t h i n k i t

i s a l s o o n e o f h i s p e o p l e w h o w a s s a yi n g t h e y m e t a t m y
Page 109 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
place and I was not there.

S o t h e y. . . h e ca m e t o m y h o u se

i n m y a b s e n ce . H e h a s n e v e r s a t w i t h m e .
A n d a s h e s a y s. . . h e s a y s h e l e f t m o n e y i n a c h a i r a n d
y e t h e s a y s h e w a s i n si d e a m e e t i n g .

I h a ve n e v e r re c e i v e d

a n y ca s h c o m i n g f ro m G a vi n Wa t s o n , n o r a l s o t h r o u g h h i m ,
A g ri z zi , a s h e cl a i m s t h a t h e w a s o n c e a t . . . T h a t i s n o t w h a t
I k n o w a n d t h a t i s n o t w h a t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e . . . a n d m a y b e M r N o t sh e , y o u c a n

j u st r u n t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h o s e f e a t u r e s t h a t a re a g r e e d a s
10

common course that he mentioned.

Because as you would

re m e m b e r M s M o k o n ya n e f ro m h i s a ff i d a vi t , h e s a i d c e rt a i n
things in order to show that he knows the house on the
i n si d e .
He has been to the house.

H e h a s s a i d ce rt a i n t h i n g s.

H e s a i d , t h e r e i s t h i s, t h e r e i s t h i s.

I think one of them

w a s. . . b u t h e f i r st sa i d t h e g u a r d h o u se i s t o y o u r l e f t a s y o u
e n t e r.
A n d t h e n I t h i n k h e sa y s t h e r e a r e a f e w st e p s j u s t
b e f o r e y o u e n t e r t h e h o u s e . A n d I t h i n k h e s a i d o n t h e ri g h t
20

h a n d si d e a s yo u e n t e r, t h e r e i s. . .
I do not know whether he said it is a lounge or it is the
ki t c h e n o r h e sa i d i t i s t h e st u d y.

A n d t h e n h e s a y s i n si d e

t h e r e i s a , I t h i n k, a st a i r c a s e i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n . S o l e t u s
d e a l w i t h t h o s e s o t h a t M s M o k o n y a n e c a n j u st d e a l w i t h
t h o se t h i n g s a n d . . .
Page 110 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
B e c a u s e i t i s i m p o rt a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a n d se e h o w
he would have known about those things if they are and if
t h e y c a n n o t b e s e e n f r o m o u t si d e .
O b vi o u s l y, i f i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t c a n b e s e e n f r o m t h e
ro a d , t h e n i t c a n n o t p r o v e t h a t h e h a s b e e n i n si d e b u t l e t u s
h e a r t h o se a n d t h e n M s M o k o n y a n e c a n d e a l w i t h t h o s e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e .

C a n I j u st

a s k o n e q u e st i o n f ro m M s M o k o n y a n e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o a k y.
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

M s M o ko n y a n e , d o y o u d e n y t h a t M r

A g ri z zi vi si t e d yo u r h o m e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Mr A g ri z zi n e v e r vi si t e d m y h o m e i n m y

presence.
A D V N O T S H E S C : I t i s. . . t h a t i s a . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] a n s w e r. A r e
y o u s a yi n g i s. . . y o u sa i d h e n e v e r vi si t e d y o u r h o m e b u t t h e n
y o u a d d “i n m y p re s e n c e ”.

A r e y o u s a yi n g h e c o u l d h a v e

vi si t e d w h e n y o u w e re n o t t h e r e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

H e m i g h t h a v e a ct u a l l y h a s s a i d i n t h e

st a t e m e n t , b u t I d e n y t h e f a ct t h a t A g ri z zi h a d a ct u a l l y b e e n
20

i n m y h o u se w i t h m e i n p r e s e n c e .
my husband.

They might have left with

They might have met with people in the house

as they alleged but never with me.
A n d i t w a s o n o n e o c c a si o n . B u t a l s o , t h e kn o w l e d g e o f
m y h o u s e C h a i r p e r s o n , a s I h a v e s a i d , w h e n yo u h a ve a n
o c c a si o n l i k e a b e r e a v e m e n t .

Yo u a r e b e i n g vi si t e d e ve n b y

Page 111 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
m e m b e r s o f t h e D A i n m y h o u se .
I h a v e b e e n v i si t e d b y p e o p l e t h a t I d o n o t k n o w.
b e ca u s e t h e y h a v e c o m e t o p a y re s p e ct .

And for them to

k n o w m y h o u s e , i t i s s o m e p e o p l e I m e e t e v e n t o d a y.
tell me:

“ We c a m e .

We sa w y o u ”.

All

They

And I cannot even

re m e m b e r.
B u t t h e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t a r e w r o n g a b o u t A g ri z zi ’ s
a c c e s si o n s.

I d o n o t h a v e a w o o d e n st a i r c a s e .

There is no

w o o d e n st a i r c a se i n m y h o u s e , i n cl u d i n g t h e o n e t h a t g o e s t o
10

t h e b e d ro o m . I t i s n o t a w o o d e n st a i r c a se .
A l s o , t h e r e i s a l o u n g e , a TV l o u n g e , a p ri v a t e TV l o u n g e
o n t h e ri g h t a s y o u g o t o w a r d s t h e ki t c h e n . A n d t h i r d l y, t h e r e
is a dining room that has been in good use from the day I
m o v e d i n t o t h a t h o u se .
S o h i s a l l e g a t i o n s o f s a yi n g i t i s n o t a ct u a l l y. . . t h e r e i s
a n o p e n sp a c e t h a t i s s u p p o s e d t o b e a d i n i n g r o o m t h a t i s
n o t b e i n g u se d . T h a t i s a l s o a l i e .
T h e t h i n g t h a t h e i s s a yi n g a b o u t kn o w i n g t h e f e a t u re s o f
t h e h o u s e , m a y b e i t i s o n t h a t d a y w h e n t h e y c a m e t o co m e

20

to look at the fence.
I d o n o t k n o w.

I w a s n o t e v e n p r e s e n t o n t h a t d a y.

h a ve n e ve r h e l d a m e e t i n g w i t h M r A g ri z zi i n m y h o u s e .

I
Mr

A g ri z zi i n d i c a t e s t h a t t h i s i s w h a t h e h a s a l w a y s b e e n t o l d b y
G a vi n Wa t s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r N o t s h e , w i l l y o u p r o ce e d t o l o o k a t t h e
Page 112 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
f e a t u r e s t h a t M r A g ri z zi t a l k s a b o u t o r t h a t a r e a g re e d a s
h a ve b e i n g i d e n t i f i e d . B u t I w a n t t o a s k t h i s q u e st i o n .
Wo u l d i t b e f a i r t o t h i n k t h a t y o u r l a t e h u s b a n d w o u l d
h a ve

told

you,

at

l e a st

a f t e r h e a ri n g

M r A g ri z z i

g i vi n g

e vi d e n c e , i f h e h a d e v e r m e t M r A g r i z zi i n y o u r h o u s e o n a n y
p a rt i c u l a r o c c a si o n ?
Is it fair to think he would have said:

“ We l l , t h a t m a n

w a s h e r e . B l a h - b l a h - b l a h ? ” O r n o t re a l l y ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n f a i r b u t t h e t h i n g
10

t h a t I kn o w a s a m a t t e r of r e c o rd i s t h a t h e s a i d , “ T h e y a re
t a l ki n g n o n s e n se ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : H e i s r e s p o n si b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I t w a s o n l y o n t h i s o c c a si o n w h e n t h e r e

w a s a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e a l a rm . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

That he asked.

Because our own 24/7

e l e ct ri ci t y a n d se c u r i t y c o m p a n y w a s o n c a l l b e ca u s e o f t h e
20

p r o b l e m s o f f l o o d i n g a n d st o r m i n G a u t e n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, b u t o n t h a t o c c a si o n , d i d h e sa y o r

a n yb o d y i n t h e f a m i l y s a y, M r A g ri z zi h i m se l f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o , t h a t h e e v e r g a ve m e t h a t a c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o b o d y e ve r s a i d t h e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o .
Page 113 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . A g ri z zi ca m e ? M r A g r i z zi ca m e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d d i d a n yb o d y s a y w h o c a m e

e x a ct l y o r n o t r e a l l y ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No.

[ l a u g h s]

T h e y w o u l d a ct u a l l y

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, o ka y. M r N o t s h e .
10

ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

N o w,

Ms

Mokonyane

what

the

C o m m i s si o n d i d l a st w e e k i s t o w r i t e t o y o u r l a w y e r s t o s e t
o u t w h a t f e a t u r e s M r A g ri z zi s a y s h e o b s e r v e d a t y o u r h o m e ,
s e e ki n g

confirmation

whether

those

t h e se . . . I a m r e a d i n g f r o m t h e l e t t e r.

e x i st

or

not.

And

The letter actually is

o n t h e l a st f i l e . I t i s f i l e 11 . T h e l a st f o l d e r 11 .
CHAIRPERSON:
go.

We l l , i t i s a v e ry. . . sh e m i g h t n o t n e e d t o

Yo u ca n j u st re a d i t .

I t i s a b r i e f l e t t e r.

Yo u c a n j u st

re a d w h a t t h e l e t t e r s a y s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e l e t t e r s a y s:
20

“. . . t h e e vi d e n c e o f A g ri z zi r e g a r d i n g h i s vi si t , t o yo u r
cl i e n t ’s p l a c e a t . . . ”
A n d t h e n t h e a d d r e s s i s g i ve n , i s i n t e r a l i a a s f o l l o w s:
“ T h e r e i s a g u a r d h o u se t o t h e l e f t a s o n e e n t e r s t h e
p r e m i s e s.

T h e r e i s a s m a l l s e t o f st a i r s w h a t i s t h e

m a i n d o o r.

I t s e e m s, t o t h e h o u s e , i s a st u d y t o t h e
Page 114 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ri g h t a s o n e e n t e r s t h e h o u se t h r o u g h t h e m a i n d o o r.
I f o n e c o n t i n u e s t h e e n t ra n c e p a s s a g e , o n e s e e s a
st a i r c a s e t o t h e f a r l e f t . T h i s st a i r c a s e l e a d s t o w h a t
i s p r e s u m e d t o b e t h e b e d r o o m s u p st a i r s.
If one could go down the passage, one would enter
i n t o a ki t c h e n a r e a .

O ff t h e k i t c h e n a re a , i t i s w h a t

seems to be like an open area that was not in use.
That leads out to the backyard area.

And linked to

the dining room is a large lounge area...”
10

A n d t h e n y o u r a t t o r n e y s h a ve r e s p o n d e d a n d s a y s:
“ N e ve rt h e l e s s. . . ”
I a m j u st re a d i n g t h e p e rt i n e n t p a rt :
“ N e ve rt h e l e s s, i n t h e s h o rt t i m e I . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t o a s k,
w e h a v e o b t a i n e d i n st r u ct i o n s f r o m o u r cl i e n t t h a t sh e
confirms

m o st

of

Mr

A g ri z zi ’s

contentions

but

d i s p u t e s t h a t t h e c o n t e n t s i n re l a t i o n t o w h e r e t h e
ki t c h e n i s a n d t h e d i n i n g ro o m n o t b ee n u s e d i n t h i s
re g a r d .
We a r e f u rt h e r i n s t ru ct e d a s f o l l o w s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e
20

features of your home.

B e f o r e yo u re a c h t h e ki t c h e n

a r e a , y o u p a s s t h e ro o m t h a t i s u s e d a s a p ri v a t e
lounge on your right and a dining room and is in
use...”
S o i t s e e m s a s i f y o u r l a w y e r i s s a yi n g yo u a g re e w i t h
m o st o f t h e f e a t u r e s e x ce p t t h e o n e s y o u h a v e p o i n t e d o u t .
Page 115 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you answer Ms Mokonyane.

I am

j u st w o n d e ri n g w h e t h e r i t i s n o t b e t t e r t o t a ke e a c h f e a t u r e
o n e b y o n e , s o s h e i s a b l e t o sa y t h a t . . . b e c a u s e t h e y s a y
m o st .

S o I d o n o t kn o w w h i c h o n e s o r w h i c h o n e s f a l l o u t .

T h e y s p e ci f i c a l l y m e n t i o n e d s o m e , I t h i n k t w o , w h e r e t h e r e i s
a problem.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, y e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s M o k o n y a n e , w o u l d y o u p re f e r t o a n s w e r
n o w o r w o u l d y o u p re f e r t h a t M r N o t s h e m e n t i o n s t h e m o n e
10

b y o n e so yo u c a n b e cl e a r e x a c t l y w h i c h o n e s y o u s a y
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : I c a n r e s p o n d e v e n n o w C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : W i t h y o u r p e rm i s si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Fi r st l y, f r o m t h e G o o g l e M a p s t h a t Mr

A g ri z zi d o w n l o a d e d , i t i s a g i ve n .

Yo u w i l l se e w h e r e t h e

g u a r d h o u s e i s b e c a u se i t i s t h e r e a n d i t i s a g u a r d h o u s e . I t
i s a b ri c k a n d . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
20

A n d c o r r e ct l y so . Th e r e a r e a f e w s t e p s t h a t yo u t a k e a s
to go into... not what seems to be.

What is the main

e n t r a n c e a n d i m m e d i a t e l y t h e r e i s a st u d y.
A n d i m m e d i a t e l y o n yo u r o p p o si t e si d e o f t h e st u d y o n
y o u r l e f t , n o t a s y o u g o f u rt h e r t h ro u g h t h e p a s sa g e , t h e r e i s
a st a i r c a s e . N o t a w o o d e n st a i r c a s e . A t i l e d st a i r c a s e .
Page 116 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
B e c a u s e o f m y h e a l t h , I c a n n o t a ct u a l l y l i v e w i t h a n y
c a r p e t o r e v e n w o o d e n f l o o r. T h e re i s a st a i r c a s e t h a t t a k e s
y o u t o t h e b e d r o o m s. T h a t i s i m m e d i a t e l y t h e re .
A n d y o u t h e n i m m e d i a t e l y t u r n ri g h t .

That is when then

y o u f i r st g o p a s s a p ri v a t e l o u n g e a n d i m m e d i a t e l y o n y o u r
o t h e r si d e , y o u t h e n h a v e t h e ki t c h e n .
A n d i n f r o n t o f y o u , yo u w o u l d n o t h a ve t o l o o k f o r i t , y o u
w i l l s e e t h e n t h e d i n i n g r o o m b e ca u s e i t i s a n o p e n p l a n . S o
nothing is hidden there.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Mr N o t s h e , h a v e y o u b e e n a b l e t o s e e

w h i c h o n e s a re . . . s h e i s n o t a d m i t t i n g a s b e i n g t h e r e ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ms Mokonyane, as I am sure you read

t h e l e t t e r?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e r e i s n o m e n t i o n o f t h e w o o d e n st a i r s
i n t h e l e t t e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m i g h t b e i n t h e a ff i d a vi t .
M S M O K O N YA N E : I n t h e a ff i d a vi t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

. . . t h a t w e h a v e g o t a n d t h a t w e w o r ke d

e v e n o v e rn i g h t o n t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . I t m i g h t b e i n t h e a ff i d a vi t .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, t h e . . . a n d i s i t co r re ct t h a t i f o n e

c o m e s d o w n . . . I a m r e a d i n g o n p a ra g r a p h 2 . 5 o f t h e l e t t e r. I t
Page 117 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
s a y s:
“I f o n e c o n t i n u e s d o w n t h e p a s s a g e , o n e w i l l e n t e r
i n t o a ki t c h e n . . . ”
I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I f y o u c o n t i n u e ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Yo u d o n o t e v e n e n t e r.

B e c a u se i t i s a n

o p e n p l a n , y o u j u st r e a c h t h e ki t c h e n a n d a c ro s s y o u s e e
t h e r e i s a l s o a d i n i n g r o o m o n . . . i n f ro n t o f t h e ki t c h e n .
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d h e s a y s o ff t h e ki t c h e n a r e a t h e r e i s
what seems to be like an open dining area. And he said that
w a s n o t i n u s e t h a t l e a d s o u t t o t h e b a c k ya r d a r e a .
M S M O K O N YA N E :

M y d i n i n g a r e a . . . t h e r e i s. . . w e d o n o t

h a ve a n y o t h e r d i n i n g r o o m e x c e p t t h a t d i n i n g r o o m a n d t h a t
h a s b e e n t h e r e f r o m t h e d a y w e o c c u p i e d t h a t sp a c e a n d w e
h a ve l i v e d t h e r e .

E v e r yo n e c a n a t t e st t o i t .

a m d i s p u t i n g f r o m M r A g ri z zi .

That is what I

I h a v e n o u n u t i l i s e d s p a ce i n

the house.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u s a y, d o e s i t l e a d t o o u t s i d e , I

thought you were reading …[intervenes]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , i t s a y s o f f t h e k i t c h e n t h e r e i s

what looks like an open dining room area, dining area, that
leads out to the back yard, the back yard area.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that part correct?
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

We have two exits, one to the front

and one to the back and when we have functions, we
a c t u a l l y o p e n a l l o f t h e m s o t h a t p e o p l e c a n m o v e e a s i l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d t h e l a s t l y, l i n k e d t o t h e d i n i n g

room is a large lounge area.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

There is a lounge.

CHAIRPERSON:

And is it where he exactly says it is

…[intervenes]
10

MS

M O K O N YA N E :

Linked

to

the

–

like

I

said,

Chairperson, it is an open plan, the kitchen, the dining
room and the lounge but he also forgot to say there is a
b a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. A n d i t i s i n y o u r f a c e a s y o u w a l k

because you walk past the private lounge and on your
other side immediately it is just maybe two, three moves
then it is the kitchen and as you come right from the
entrance after you have turned away from the study you
s e e a d a r k b r o w n w o o d e n b a r, i t h a s g l a s s e s , i t h a s a – i t
20

i s i n y o u r – i t i s l i k e a m i r r o r, y o u s e e i t , i t i s u n a v o i d a b l e
not to see.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yo u w i l l a g r e e w i t h m e t h a t t h e

features that are mentioned by Mr Agrizzi.

Let us leave

the

stairs.

guardhouse

for

the

moment

and

the

The

features inside the house, they are features that have been
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
observed by someone who was inside the house.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

They would have been observed but

not as accurately- but not as inaccurate as he is putting
there.

I think he might have been told and hence he has

forgotten what could just immediately come into your mind
about the

Mokonyane’s house that there is a bar as you

come in there, a small family bar and you walk across and
you pass the private lounge and then you get into the
kitchen on the other side and just there it is an open plan
10

kind of a situation. So I find very absurd that he would not
even recognise that one unless somebody has told him and
they forgot to give him the position.
CHAIRPERSON:

Of course, even if he had been there, he

might have forgotten that part or forgotten some features,
is it not?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

He has never been in that house with

[indistinct – dropping voice]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, I accept that you are saying he – I

accept that your version is that he has never been to the
20

house.
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

Mr

Agrizzi

has

amended

his

submissions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .
So many a time and surely if he wants

to prove the probability that he alleges, yes, surely be that
Page 120 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
things that he will not even forget.

Anyone who you can

ask, like I am saying even leaders of the Democratic
A l l i a n c e , l e a d e r s o f t h e I F P, l e a d e r s o f t h e E F F, p e o p l e t h a t
have come to that house, they will tell you that right in
front of you – even during bereavements, Chairperson, we
do not remove that dining room. In fact, it gets used as an
a l t e r.

I am very Catholic.

So that dining room operates as

a little alter when there is a bereavement.

When there is

no bereavement that is the table that we all spend time
10

because we are all busy people.

That is – we call it our

p l a c e o f c o n v e r g e n c e w h e r e w e a l l c o m e t o g e t h e r.

So I do

not know if he had forgotten to see tables and chairs.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, you said that when there are

functions in the house and when there is a bereavement or
a party people will come and you open both ends for
people to move in and out.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
I take it that you are not suggesting that

Mr Agrizzi might have been to your house during one of
20

those occasions but what you are saying is that he must
have got this information from somebody else about the
features of your house, is that correct?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

He might have gotten this explanation

from somebody who has been in the house and that is my
assertion.
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Of he does not know the house at all.
Ye s .

Because, of course, if he was ever

there in the house when there was some – there were many
people, he is not the kind of person that you would miss,
you would see him, there is no way you would not see him.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I would not miss if he would have

j o i n e d u s w h e n w e h a v e m a s s . Yo u k n o w, w h e n y o u h a v e a
bereavement you then come then [African language] there
10

is a prayer service and you come downstairs but most of
the time when there is a bereavement and when it is a
b e r e a v e m e n t i n m y h o u s e I a m t h e c h i e f m o u r n e r, I s p e n d
most of the time upstairs and with the loss of my son,
Chairperson, I want to tell you, it was not an easy thing for
me to accept.
bed.

I could not deal with it.

I was confined in

I was under medical treatment and people came in

numbers.

By the time I went to son in Botswana and

c o n f i r m w i t h h i s i d e n t i t y b e f o r e h e w a s t a k e n t h e m o r t u a r y,
I arrived when the house was full.
20

I cannot tell you, I

cannot tell you who the white person who was there and
the black person who was there and all those kinds of
things, I lived for the better part of that period being
sedated. I had to deal with the insides and all those things
b u t j u s t t h e p e o p l e w h o c o m e , I c a n n o t r e a l l y r e m e m b e r.
Others still remind me today that we were with you and that
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
is me with the issues of grieving(?) because the other time
that opens any African home is when [African language]
and the other time it is when you host [African language]
and my [African language]

I will not invite Agrizzi, not

mphahlele mpanza and all those things, I will not invite
Agrizzi, I will not even invite Gavin because it has to do
with me and my family and my interpersonal and that is
what will happen.

When I entertain, I do entertain, I

entertain my friends, not even Gavin has been entertained
10

in my house because we do not relate at that level because
that is – I have never had a relationship where I will party
with Gavin and stuff.

When I met with Gavin we will just

relating about politics.

He was very passionate and very

outspoken about politics and all those things.

And the

other thing that will be - his own contributions will be us
reminiscing about our past and all those kind of things or
all

of

us

working

for

the

ANC

and

implementing

the

mandate of the African National Congress.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well, I guess you would agree with me

that if he has never been to your house and he had to go
and look for somebody who knew your house inside then it
means he really went to great lengths to try and get
something which would create the impression that he has
been to the house when in fact he has not been to the
house.

Now the question that arises for me – and I am the
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
one who must ultimately decide, make a finding which of
these versions is true.

What arises is, why would he go to

these lengths to do this to you?

It is important that you

address that because I have no doubt that if he or his
lawyers, as an argument, they might say why would he
have gone to all of these lengths, why would he want to
punish you, put you in a bad light and go and look for
people who must – who know your house and say please
tell me what are the features that one can find in the
10

house?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. I t h i n k t h e e x t e n t o f

the desperate acts of Mr Agrizzi goes beyond just the
description of the house. The very fact that he thinks for a
movement as old as the ANC, 108 years old, can actually
be dependent on a Nomvula for it to remain a popular
organisation that has – and being a leader of society
s m a c k s o f h i s i g n o r a n c e a n d n a i v e t y.
S e c o n d l y, I j u s t t h i n k w h a t e v e r t h a t h a s h a p p e n e d
between him and Gavin, he is at pains to really not only
20

tarnish Gavin but look for people who at that particular
time and even now their names have been tarnished both
in the media as well as the perceptions that have been
branded about them.

He himself has not actually denied

the fact that he hates black people, he himself he has not
denied

the

fact

that

he

has

complained

Page 124 of 214

about

the

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
relationship I have with Gavin.
record.

He has actually put it on

Only him can indicate that I really think that Gavin

trusted somebody who was never committed to actually
b e i n g w h a t h e , G a v i n , a n d t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y a n d a l l o t h e r
people, not only Gavin, even other people who worked for
BOSASA that actually were doing for the African National
Congress like it has happened with other businesses. Only
him can explain but I do believe that he has a mission and
his mission, as you can see, is going to an extent of saying
10

I have influence.

It is like I am in charge of leaders of the

African National Congress and President.

I think that is

also wrong and now the act of desperation pushes him to
not even say – I wish he could have said I have gone to
Nomvula’s bedroom and I found her lying on the mattress
and that is where we agreed to sign off and do all the
burials and everything. Because that is where the decision
o f m e a n d m y f a m i l y.
language]

L i k e y o u k n o w, C h a i r p e r s o n , [ A f r i c a n

for in your home there are moments where the

family comes together and [African language] and did all
20

those things.

That is where issues are discussed, he does

not say in all those things about the things that he is
saying that I met Nomvula or I met such Mokonyane and I
was told that I must do this and this and that.
was

instructed

by

Gavin

and

I

definitely

He says he
can

s a y,

Chairperson, Gavin never bought a coffin for my child.
Page 125 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Gavin never paid for burial for my child. BOSASA never
buried my child.
He even goes to an extent – I think this desperation
just irritates me.

Irritates me and hurts me so bad that –

he even goes to an
Retlabusa.

extent of confusing my two son,

Africa, the eldest and Retlabusa.

And leave

the aside the description of the house. That is that. So he
does not even know their names yet in every other thing he
is able to drop the names, Nomvula Mokonyane’s son and
10

t h a t i s h o w m y k i d s h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h i n t h i s c o u n t r y, t h e y
are

all

associated

Mokonyane’s son.

–

they

are

all

Nomvula’s

son,

Now it is Mokonyane’s daughter and I

think my own issue is, Agrizzi with how is has come into
the Commission and how he is conducting himself and how
he had also provided information, it is up to him to say
what exactly is the motive and why has he handpicked
t h o s e t h a t h e h a d h a n d p i c k e d ? C h a i r, j u s t a s i m p l e t h i n g .
I have never been in any department that deals with
the
20

procurement

of

that

department

with

BOSASA.

Chairperson, I am not sure if the SIU and everybody had
s t o p p e d t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n s , I d o n o t k n o w, s o I r e a l l y d o n o t
– I [African language] I really do not know why but I think
the man is full of hatred and there was a situation between
him and Gavin and as I have said, that man tell those
s t o r i e s t h a t r e a l l y, r e a l l y, I a m s a y i n g C h a i r, y o u c a n g o t o
Page 126 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
my

house

immediately

i m m e d i a t e l y,
you

have

once

the

you

staircase

pass
and

in

the
your

s t u d y,
face,

b e f o r e y o u e v e n s e e t h e r e i s a k i t c h e n y o u s e e t h e b a r.
Yo u s e e t h e d i n i n g r o o m .

Yo u o n l y r e a l i s e o n c e y o u h a v e

moved into the open space that there is a kitchen.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you. Mr Notshe?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ms Mokonyane, you confirmed that

your

high

house

has

got

walls,

the

perimeters

of

the

premises is made of high walls.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t i s , a s i t w a s a l s o s h o w n b y

Agrizzi on the Google Map.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

And I am sure one cannot be

able to see the guardhouse outside the premises, one has
to enter the premises.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No, you can see the roof even from

outside and also through a Google Map you can see.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And one would not be able to see that

the roof, that the roof of a guardhouse, one may just see
the roof.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Come again?
One may just see the roof but would

not know whether it is the roof of another building or a
guardhouse, one has to open and enter the premises to
see that it is a guardhouse.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , w e h a v e t o o p e n a n d e n t e r b u t
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
knowing that that has been a house of an MEC and a
P r e m i e r, g o e s w i t h l o g i c .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now also the stairs that lead to the

main house cannot be seen from outside, one has to enter
the yard to see those stairs.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Yo u c a n a l s o w h e n y o u G o o g l e – y o u

d o a n a e r i a l p h o t o g r a p h y, y o u c a n s e e t h o s e s t a i r s a n d
y e s , a l s o w h e n y o u e n t e r, t h a t i s t h e m a i n e n t r a n c e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

When you say that you can see the

s t a i r s l e a d i n g t o t h e m a i n h o u s e t o G o o g l e p h o t o g r a p h y,
are you saying that is what Agrizzi did?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I do believe. I do not understand what

led him to actually downloading Google Maps.

I am saying

yes, it is easy to find out that way and you can also be told
by anybody else and you can also see it once you inside
the yard.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now you also say in your answer in

paragraph 37.2 and page 32 that your primary security was
provided by the state and you say:
20

“This included,

as far as I

was concerned,

the

provision of close circuit television.”
As you saying the primary security at your house, your
private home, was done by the state?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
Now the – you say the affidavit of Mr
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20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Alan Nixon that he asked the state for details of this.

The

state never confirmed that they put security at your place.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

The state was responsible for my

security and what had happened.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now when you saw …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o

c l a r i f y. I n o n e p a r t o f y o u r a f f i d a v i t y o u s a i d t h e s t a g e w a s
responsible or you were entitled to being provided with
primary
10

security

by

the

state

and

then

here

primary security was provided by the state so

you

say

that is

separate from being entitled because you can be entitled
and they do not provide.

So you are saying as a matter of

fact the state did provide what you referred to as primary
s e c u r i t y, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , i n c l u d i n g t h e s e c u r i t y g u a r d s t h a t

were provided as they sit here.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I w a n t t o c o m e t o t h a t t o s a y w h a t

d o y o u – w h a t f a l l s u n d e r p r i m a r y s e c u r i t y, w h a t a r e y o u
covering when you say my primary security was provided
20

by the state.

Exactly who, is that the protectors only or is

there something else as well. I just want to …[intervenes]
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

The state also provided a guardhouse.
Guardhouse.
The state also provided the burglars

and the security in terms of cameras.
Page 129 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y, s o t h e C C T V c a m e r a s ?

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
And the guardhouse.

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
And I assume …[intervenes]

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

And the 24 hour guarding.
Ja, the personnel in the guardhouse.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , i t w a s t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o l i c e

Service.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y. M r N o t s h e ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now when you answered – when you

were preparing this affidavit you had already heard and
seen the affidavit of Agrizzi where he says the CCTVs were
provided by BOSASA, right?

Yo u h a d s e e n – w h e r e y o u

were answering this…
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Yo u h a d s e e n A g r i z z i s a y i n g t h e s e

were provided by BOSASA, am I right?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now did you ask the state and say

please show – give me the receipts or show me – confirm
that you did provide.

Someone is saying here that they

provided CCTVs for my house, I know it was provided by
Page 130 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
you, the state, please confirm this?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson, even the decision of

having a protector you do not get any explanation from the
state.

Even

when

the

state

out

of

their

own

risk

assessment resolves that I must not spent time in whatever
because of the security issues, I must actually move to
Bryanston.

I took time to move that official residence until

I was forced by the South African Police Service VIP
Protection that I have to move to that place because of
10

their own concerns and they will never even explain to you,
you just see those things.
So the state, I would never – and

think I took it as

a matter of fact that everybody knows how the State deals
with these issues and I have seen also Mr Nixon confirming
that he had checked all those issues with the state.

It is

up to Agrizzi himself to prove why he actually is misleading
this house.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well you mentioned Mr Nixon, I thought I

would come back to that because earlier you did make
20

reference to him having confirmed something and I did not
hear what it was.

So what is it that, on your reading of his

affidavit, he has confirmed?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

That the CCTV cameras could not be

associated with those that say Agrizzi or whoever have
come to the Commission to …[intervenes]
Page 131 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Would not be?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

That he confirmed that the security in

the house is not the same at that that is being alleged to
h a v e b e e n b o u g h t , I d o n o t k n o w i n w h a t c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, is not the same as the security or

CCTV cameras that Mr Agrizzi talked about?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O h , o k a y.

M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

And all other issues that are in the

affidavit by the gentlem an.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w e l l i f y o u w a n t t o g o t o t h e

affidavit feel free to do so but otherwise Mr Notshe might
assist to find it.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

The affidavit is just on page 148.

CHAIRPERSON:

Well, Mr Notshe, if you know exactly

whereabouts?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s , o n p a g e – C h a i r p e r s o n ?
Ye s , y e s ?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

On page 158.

CHAIRPERSON:

158, yes.

Do you want to read the

relevant part, Ms Mokonyane?
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

Thank

you,

Chairperson.

The

conclusions on paragraph 35 reads as follows:
“The

date

of

deposing

to

this

affidavit,

our

investigations have not found any evidence that the
Page 132 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
purchases of CCTV security equipment from Regal
Security

and

made

on

the

Angelo

Agrizzi

cash

account can be matched to the security installations
done

at

Ms

Mokonyane’s

private

residence

in

Krugersdorp.”
And 34.2:
“Ms Mokonyane received and security installations
at her private residence as a consequence of the
position that she held as the MEC of Gauteng, the
10

P r e m i e r o f G a u t e n g , o r a s t h e M i n i s t e r o f Wa t e r a n d
Sanitation.”
CHAIRPERSON:
following

and

Ye s , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o m e a n t h e
I

want

you

to

confirm

whether

my

u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s , y o u k n o w, a r e
the same.

I understand Mr Nixon to be saying as at the

date of deposing to this affidavit his investigations have
not found any evidence that the CCTV security equipment
f r o m R e g a l S e c u r i t y, w h i c h w a s m a d e o n M r A g r i z z i ’ s c a s h
account,
20

can

be

matched

or

installations at your residence.

matches

the

security

That is the first point I

think he is making. I think we agree on that one.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Is that right?
Ye s .
Ye s .

A n d s e c o n d l y, I u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o

Page 133 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
say his investigations have also not found any evidence
that

the

security

security

installations

installations

that

you

at
got

your
as

residence
a

result

were

of

the

positions you held as MEC Gauteng Housing, Premier of
Gauteng

or

Minister

of

Wa t e r

and

Sanitation.

Is

our

understanding on both points the same?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, f i n e .

M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , C h a i r.
Ye s , t h a n k y o u . M r N o t s h e ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

So just on this, just on this, you see

that the state did not confirm that they did install the
security equipment at your house.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Come again?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

On this paragraph, paragraph 34.2.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

The state did not confirm, did not

confirm that the security TVs at your house were installed
by it, by the state. Did not confirm that.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

That is what is says [indistinct –

dropping voice]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

So the state has not confirmed

that they put the CCTVs at your house.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
Now it takes me back to my earlier
Page 134 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
question, the clarification I just seek from you, you had –
you read Mr Agrizzi saying the CCTVs were installed by
BOSASA and you say those CCTVs were installed by the
state.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

All security features in my house were

installed by the state and every other further security
feature, that was my husband [indistinct – dropping voice]
post my departure from Gauteng.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

No, all I am saying is, you heard Mr

Agrizzi’s affidavit in that the CCTVs and security around
your house were installed by BOSASA.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

And I am saying …[intervenes]

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And you are saying no, they were

installed by the state.

Did you find out from the state and

ask them to confirm that these were installed by them?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I have not gone to the state because I

have read Mr Agrizzi’s statement and I have also had the
confirmation from my husband that he took responsibility
and we do have a 24/7 security company that does all the
20

m a i n t e n a n c e a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t i s r e l a t e d t o o u r s e c u r i t y,
e v e n a s w e s p e a k t o d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

S o r r y, M s M o k o n y a n e , d i d y o u g o t o

the state despite the serious allegations made against you
that the CCTVs and security equipment was installed by a
private person at your house and you are saying they were
Page 135 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
installed by the state?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I never …[intervenes]

ADV NOTSHE SC:
over you.

S o r r y, s o r r y, I d i d n o t m e a n t o s p e a k

Wa s i t n o t e a s y f o r y o u t o a s k t h e s t a t e t o s a y

you installed this please, in an affidavit or confirm that
these were installed by the state and not by BOSASA?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No, I have never done that precisely

because I have never found it being my responsibility to go
back to the state and go and find out what they have done.
10

The guardhouse, for example, that is in my house, we had
to build after the state’s guardhouse had act ually collapsed
and it was post my being the Premier and moving into
National Government because National Government does
not actually provide security in your private residence and
that is what we did.

So I never went back to the state for

t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e s e c u r i t y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And, of course, Ms Mokonyane, as you

k n o w t h i s e n q u i r y i s a n o n g o i n g i n q u i r y, y o u w i l l o b t a i n
confirmation from the state that this was done by them and
20

provide the Commission with that.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson?
Ye s .
If I am requested to get information

from the state other than what Mr Nixon has obtained then
I would have gone back to the state and they will have to
Page 136 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
give it to me.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
misunderstand

me,

So, fine, Ms Mokonyane, do not
I

am

sure

perhaps

misunderstanding Mr Nixon’s affidavit.

you

might

be

He does not say he

obtained confirmation, he did not obtain confirmation.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , I w o u l d h a v e t o g o a n d c h e c k w i t h

the state if I am requested to.

But also, if it is up to the

Commission itself also, to call the state and let the state
come and explain itself.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

No, no, no, the Commission

has the obligation to investigate that but obviously you
can, as you have been doing, give whatever cooperation to
facilitate in terms of maybe who the right people are to talk
to if that is information that you know but the Commission
will continue to investigate and if they need to ask you for
assistance, they will ask you.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And

I

am

confident

that

you

will

…[intervenes]
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :
Commission

by

Ye s .

giving

you

And I can also assist the
a

security

responsible for our own close monitoring.
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
For our firm.
Ye s .
Page 137 of 214

company

that

is

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

For our own other extra security

feature in the house.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS

Ye s , y e s , p l e a s e d o t h a t .

M O K O N YA N E :

O k a y,

I

will

through

my

lawyer

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Would that be – would the com pany that

i s t h e r e n o w, t h e s e c u r i t y c o m p a n y b e t h e s a m e o n e t h a t
would have been there that time or is it one that was
contracted recently?
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :
services

in

No, the company that does security

terms

of

guard

of

the

house

is

different

because those are the people who are dealing with static,
the company that deals with electrical and close circuit
m o n i t o r i n g a n d s t u f f , i t ’ s a d i f f e r e n t c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o t h a t ’ s f i n e , s o d o p r o v i d e t h a t

information then the Commission can look into that, yes.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now the – you then proceed to deal

w i t h p a r a g r a p h s 2 6 a n d 2 7 , t h a t i s n o w, I ’ m l o o k i n g a t p a g e
32 of the affidavit.
20

Dealing with paragraphs 22 and 26,

this is about the analysis, the report that Agrizzi says you
sought for securities at hospitals and…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m

sorry

Mr

Notshe

shouldn’t

we

complete the aspect that relates to what Mr Agrizzi and
what Mr Richard le Roux and Mr Charl le Roux say in terms
of what they say was provided to – the services that they
Page 138 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
say were provided to the – Ms Mokonyane’s home because
it’s all connected, you have got Mr van Biljon deposing to
an affidavit, dealing with that, you have got Mr Charl le
Roux saying certain things about his visits to the house
inside and – so we can finish that part and that’s an
important part, to rather re-visit it with each affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
understand

the

C h a i r, I l e f t i t b e c a u s e t h e w a y I

evidence

of

Mr

Mokonyane

is

that,

whatever was put there, it was not put at her request, the
10

only incident that was requested was when there was a
problem with the security fence and therefore she denies
all that the witness is saying was put.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o I t h i n k w e m u s t d e a l w i t h i t

nevertheless.
ADV NO T SHE SC: No, that’s fine.
CHAIRPERSON:
the affidavits.

Let’s go to is, I won’t necessarily go to

Ms Mokonyane Mr Richard le Roux, he was

from BOSASA or rather let me start by saying, Mr Agrizzi
says
20

in

one

of

his

affidavits

that

Mr

Gavin

Wa t s o n

instructed him that he should put together a team that
would,

e f f e c t i v e l y,

I

think

look

after

you

in

terms

of

maintenance of certain features in the house, security
features and other things in the house and Mr Agrizzi says,
Mr Richard le Roux from BOSASA was the leader of that
team and he says – and Mr Richard le Roux, in his affidavit
Page 139 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
also says, they contracted another company to provide
services, maintenance and other services to your home and
a certain Mr van Biljon, I’m sure you’ve seen his affidavit
as well, who now lives in New Zealand if I’m not mistaken
explains

in

his

affidavit

how

he

got

connected

with

BOSASA and he says he did some work at Mr Agrizzi’s
house and he was connected to Mr Richard le Roux and his
company did some work over a certain period of time in
your residence and he says, initially he didn’t know whose
10

house it was because he says he had been told not to ask
questions about whose house it was because he says he
had been told not to ask questions about whose house this
is and he says but he remembers the house, I think, quite
well, he mentioned certain features and the work that was
done there.
Mr van Biljon who was contacted by the Commission
where he is, I think in New Zealand, through investigation,
puts up even invoices that he says he has been able to
find relating to, I can’t remem ber whether it’s only those

20

relating to your house or also to other houses that he did
at the time.

He says, here are the invoices that relate to

that address and he – the invoices indicate the work that
he says his company did and they showed the amount that
they were going to charge it’s quite a few invoices there,
they are all here and then – that ’s Mr van Biljon and he
Page 140 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
says he went to your house, it must be about, I think he
says about ten times, over a certain period of time.

Mr

Charl le Roux who gave evidence here a few weeks ago,
says, Mr van Biljon I think, is his cousin or nephew he
worked for him or under him, so he says Mr van Biljon
would send him to a number of houses, he mentions other
houses as well but included in the – among the houses, is
your house and he specifies what he did on some of the
occasions there.
10

So, the question that arises for me is, whether you
would say that these people must have done the work that
they did in the house but, one without your knowledge or
instruction, authorisation or you say it’s all fabrication they
could not have done that work in your house without you
knowing about it, what do you say?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Thank you very much Chairperson.

Once more I want to state that issues of the security and
the maintenance of the house have continuously been a
responsibility of the father of the house also, there has
20

been security companies that were sourced to provide
these

kind

of

services

including

maintenance of our own yard.

the

maintenance,

the

First, it’s a company then

you’ve got people who are doing part-time who came from
that very company that was doing house maintenance. I’ve
never instructed or actually requested anything to be done
Page 141 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
by BOSASA on my behalf not even on the issue of the
alarm because I could not be reached at that time, I think I
was at Lagodla or wherever but I’ve never asked nor have I
a c t u a l l y, b e e n t o l d b y B O S A S A t h e e x t e n t o f t h e w o r k t h a t
they have done in my yard.
CHAIRPERSON:

Would it be fair to say that if you late

husband had obtained the services of BOSASA, other than,
maybe that one occasion to come and provide maintenance
services in the house or to install any security features
10

that there’s no way he would not have told you because he
w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t y o u a r e c l o s e t o M r G a v i n Wa t s o n
who was the CEO of BOSASA?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Including himself, he also knows Gavin

Wa t s o n , h e k n o w s t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o t h e r e ’ s n o w a y h e w o u l d n o t

have shared that with you?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s , s o I ’ m t r y i n g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

M S M O K O N YA N E :
20

issued

that

A n d o n r e c o r d w h e n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s

statement

and

there

were

enquiries,

he

r e s p o n d e d i n a t e x t m e s s a g e , t h a t i s a v a i l a b l e t o s a y, h e i s
responsible, he is the one who has appointed people that
have

been

doing

work

except

for

that

particular

intervention that we had asked them to do because of the
challenges of the storm and the alarm that was actually
Page 142 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
going on and off in the house.
CHAIRPERSON:

Of

course,

what

both,

Mr

van

Biljon…[intervenes].
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr van Biljon.
It’s a difficult surname to pronounce.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Va n B i l j o n y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, both Mr van Biljon and – not both

actually Mr van Biljon, Mr Charl le Roux and Mr Richard le
Roux, they all say that payment for the services that were
10

provided by this company of Mr van Biljon, those services
were paid for by BOSASA.

Now I guess that you won’t be

in a position to say whether BOSASA paid that company or
not because you were not part of any arrangement.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

We were not part of that arrangem ent

except the call that, please come and help us because
everybody

was

out

in

the

area

making

interventions

because of the storm, so I wouldn’t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s a n d I t h i n k y o u – f r o m w h a t y o u

say it’s difficult to think that your husband would have
20

arranged a company to come and do work, a company that
was associated with BOSASA and he would not share that
with you?
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s ,

it’s

not

a

company

that

is

associated with BOSASA that has been doing work in the
house.
Page 143 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

No what I mean is if, what Mr Charl le

Roux says and if what Mr van Biljon says is factually true,
n a m e l y, t h e y d i d c o m e t o y o u r h o u s e o n t h e o c c a s i o n s t h a t
they

came,

without

your

knowledge,

they

did

the

maintenance work that they say they did and if, indeed,
they installed any security features, I’m saying that there
seems to be very little chance that they would have been
asked by your late husband to come and do that if your
husband
10

would

connected

with

not

mention

BOSASA,

if

that
they

to

you

are

and

they

connected

are
with

BOSASA and if he knew that.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I would have known but for now I don’t

know what you are talking about.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

yes,

so

as

things

stand

your

position is, you don’t know of any arrangement in terms of
which Mr van B iljon’s com pany may have com e to the
house to perform any maintenance work, you did not ask
them, you did not authorise them, you husband never told
you that he had anything to do with such a company but he
20

was responsible for security matters in the house, is that
right?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

It is right Chairperson.
Ye s , y e s o k a y, M r N o t s h e ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And just on that finishing off, it

seemed as if you cannot dispute that van Biljon’s company
Page 144 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
d i d t h e w o r k a t y o u r p l a c e , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w a l l y o u c a n s a y,
I don’t know whether they did it or not?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Va n B i l j o n w a s n e v e r a s k e d , b y u s t o

come and do work, nor have we ever been told that van
Biljon has come to do work because, amongst other things,
f o r t h e r e c o r d C h a i r, w e h a d a c o m p a n y c a l l e d M a f u t a
which is a company that was doing gardening services for
my house, they’ve even gone to an extent where, after
burying my own son, they actually went and helped us to
10

stack the grave site and actually put stones and everything
until the grave actually goes down.

After that we then got

one of their employees, because the company was battling,
who came in and was actually doing work in the yard and
a s w e s p e a k n o w, w e n o w e v e n h a v e a n o t h e r p e r s o n w h o ’ s
doing the part-time, so those are the ones that I can affirm.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

The reason I’m raising this, is that, Mr

Charl le Roux gave evidence, one of the issues is one
description of the house outside and the features that were
there, which he went and pointed out, can you dispute that
20

he has been to your house?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I cannot dispute nor challenge whether

he has been in the house but he has never been in the
house to do things on my instruction or in my knowledge.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
you

raised

about

And also, just to deal with the issue
Mr

Alan

Nixon,

Page 145 of 214

remember

the

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
investigator?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
Roux,

remember

There’s an affidavit of Mr Richard le
Mr

Richard

le

Roux

is

the

BOSASA

person…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Let’s go to that affidavit what page is it?

A D V N O T S H E S C : O f R i c h a r d L e R o u x i s t h e o t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

10

O k a y.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, t h e – a c t u a l l y t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:

A c t u a l l y, I w o n d e r w h e t h e r – I s e e t h a t

the first one here is that of Richard le Roux, can we
quickly see whether there is anything to raise there, on
that one?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Richard le Roux?
Ja, well Ms Mokonyane I don’t know if

you’ve been able to find, not the one for Charl le Roux but
the one for Richard le Roux?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Yo u h a v e f o u n d i t ?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay it starts on page 1 – on this

Bundle, Mr Notshe we haven’t said what Bundle it is.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Chair it’s – this should be Bundle C.
Okay so we call it Bundle C, that’s the
Page 146 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Bundle that’s got Mr Richard le Roux’s affidavit, you know
on page four of that affidavit, paragraph 18 Mr Richard le
Roux says,
“As part of this maintenance I used sub-contractors
such as Renier van Biljon and a person that worked
with him by the name of Charl le Roux to perform
some

of

the

residence.
lighting,
10

work

This

and

was

electrics,

Nomvula

mainly

the

in

swimming

Mokonyane’s

respect
pool

of

the

BB,

the

pond’s electrical work, the generator and the air
conditioners.

It

is

likely

that

Mr

van

Biljon

purchased the equipment himself and then invoiced
B O S A S A . T h e s e i n v o i c e s w e r e t h e n , m o s t l y, p a i d i n
cash”,
That is in paragraph 18 and then he says at 19,
“In relation to the maintenance at the Blouberg
premises I also dealt with Ms Nomvula Mokonyane’s
personal assistant, Ms Sandy Thomas who would
arrange for certain repairs and maintenance to be
20

performed when needed and in 20 he refers to a
message, in this regard I attach hereto a copy of a
WhatsApp message sent to me on 1 June 2017 by
Ms

Sandy

there’s

a

Thomas
problem

which
at

the

states,
house

dear
with

Richard,
the

alarm

system, for some reason it keeps ringing so now it
Page 147 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
has to be switched off at the switch, please let me
know what to do”,
So, I thought I might read this but the gist of it is
something that I have put to you that Richard le Roux was
employed by B O SASA and he says he used Mr van Biljon’s
company and he refers to Mr Charl le Roux as well for
purposes of performing some of the work, which he says,
they performed on behalf of BOSASA.

Yo u m i g h t n e e d t o

s a y s o m e t h i n g o r y o u m i g h t s a y, t h e r e s p o n s e y o u g a v e
10

earlier on stands.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson the response I have given

earlier still stands and hence even in his response he
doesn’t elaborate on anything, further than saying, the
alarm is sorted out.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

yes,

now

I

just

want

to

also

understand something, Mr Notshe referred, earlier on, I
think it was before lunch to a message from Ms Sandy
T h o m a s , y o u r PA t o R i c h a r d l e R o u x , t h i s i s t h e s a m e
Richard le Roux I believe and you said something about it.
20

I seem to think you said there had been a storm of flooding
or something like that, did I understand you correctly?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s i s t h e m e s s a g e C h a i r.
This is the message?
Ye s .
Ye s .
Page 148 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

When the alarm was going on and off

because there was a tree that had fallen on the fence.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

And then the second one is that, that

Mr Agrizzi was talking about, about the email about the
ANC election, which I have also not denied and said it
does not show anything about me having asked favours
from them, it was again, in the operation of the work that
has been done and that was it and for the record he was
10

n o t e v e n t a l k i n g t o m e d i r e c t l y, I u s e m y p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t
like

people

will

know

communication,

including

being

a

the

busy
personal

person

then

assistant’s

responsibility is to render service to the family of the
Executive.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u , M r N o t s h e y o u m a y

proceed.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Just from there, Chair…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

But before you go to Mr Charl le Roux, I

think I have something on Mr van Biljon, I just want to refer
20

to some of the matters he deals with.

On what page is his

affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr van Biljon is that file.
Is it a different Bundle?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , i t ’ s B u n d l e A , M r v a n B i l j o n w i l l

b e B u n d l e AT 1 4 .
Page 149 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Well you started with Bundle B, earlier

on.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And I thought you said that was because

in other proceedings Bundle A had been identified.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h i s i s t h e B u n d l e A … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
This is the same Bundle A?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h i s i s t h e B u n d l e , r e m e m b e r, C h a i r,

you’ll see there it was when they gave – Charl le Roux
10

gave evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s – o h h e ’ s t h e o n e ?
He’s the one.
O h o k a y.
And then remember in it they had been

put under 13 and then you gave direction that they should
be broken up, the affidavits, into different T’s.

So, Mr

Renier van Biljon is T14.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Is it T14?
T14 yes.
O k a y, h a v e y o u f o u n d i t M s M o k o n y a n e ,

yes thank you. I think that Mr van Biljon says that he’s a
qualified electrician and during 2015 he got a call-out on a
Saturday at Mr Agrizzi’s house, that’s how he made contact
w i t h M r A g r i z z i a n d h e , u l t i m a t e l y, m e t M r l e R o u x a n d h e
says, in paragraph six,
Page 150 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
“ To m y k n o w l e d g e I w a s d o i n g t h e w o r k f o r B O S A S A
as a sub-contractor and the usual manner in which
we operated was as follows:

Mr le Roux would

inform me of an address where services were to be
provided and I’d meet him on site.

6.2 I would

evaluate

the

work

and

then

BOSASA

for

this

stipulating

the

to

be

work

done

required, such as CCTV fittings and the like.

go

to

items
6.3 I

would not stipulate the residential address on the
10

quotation but would simply refer to BOSASA on the
quotation

for

example

if

the

pumps

for

water

features had to be changed at a residence the
heading on the quotation would merely state, “water
feature pump”.

6.4 As a freelance electrician I

subcontracted and it was normal for me to quote by
simply placing “water pump replace” as the wording
on the quote and invoice, these were never highvalue

jobs.

6.5

In

certain

instances

I

would

purchase spares or equipment in order to effect the
20

repairs

and

in

other

instances

purchase the items and provide

BOSASA

would

these to me, I

would then commence with the work and invoice
BOSASA after completion.

He

says,

all

of the

quotations and invoices were made out to either
BOSASA or cash and/or Richard.
Page 151 of 214

6.7 There was

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
normally no mention of the address where the work
was provided on the quotation or invoice.
I recall this as I had to redo certain quotations and
invoices making sure that there was no mention of
the address.

These instructions were given to me

by Mr le Roux, I would email the quotations and
invoices to Mr le Roux who would then arrange for
payment

into

my

account,

and

then

here’s

a

heading, worked performed at Minister Mokonyane’s
10

residence.

I recall that I performed work at house

n u m b e r, h e g i v e s t h e a d d r e s s , t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’ s
investigation
photographs

team
of

has

her

house

provided

me

with

which

depicts

the

entrance and outside of her house attached hereto
as Annexure RVB 1.
situated

at,

he

I confirm that this is the house
gives

the

address,

where

I

performed the work and then later on, he says,
b e l o w, t h a t i s 1 4 , b e l o w i s t h e l i s t o f s o m e o f t h e
things I recall doing at the house.
20

14.1 repaired

a n d r e - p r o g r a m m e d t h e g e n e r a t o r c h a n g e o v e r. 1 4 . 2
replaced the distribution board for the swimming
pool, replaced the outside stair lights leading to the
house, repaired the electric fence, called out to
repair the air-conditioning system one night, called
out to repair the generator one night, replaced and
Page 152 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
rewired some of the water features.

He says that, I

would estimate that I went to the Blouberg site to
perform work there on approximately ten occasions.
Then he says at 16.1 I’ve searched for and located
certain

quotations

and

invoices

for

the

work

performed at, and he gives the address, and have
managed to locate the following,
And then he has got dates there and the invoice
numbers one of which is on the 9th of October 2014
10

h e s a y s , h e i n s p e c t e d g e n e r a t o r a l t e r n a t o r, t h e n o n
the 15th of October 2015 he says, generator has
been tested and is 100% operational a separate test
report will be mailed and then 10 October 2015,
replace pool DB, 15 October 2014 replace pool DB,
18 April 2015, repairs to lighting and he gives the
amounts that he – the work – he charged for the
work”.
So I just wanted to indicate that these are the
d e t a i l s t h a t – o r s o m e o f t h e d e t a i l s t h a t h e p u t s u p t o s a y,

20

he was there, he did the work, he says he did it on
instructions

of

BOSASA,

he

doesn’t

s a y,

on

your

instructions he did it on the instructions of BOSASA.

I

assume that your position is, what you said earlier on?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson, yes, I do want to affirm

what I’ve said earlier on but if you also go back to his
Page 153 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
affidavit on page three ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

M S M O K O N YA N E : O n p a r a g ra p h 1 2 h e s a y s:
“O n o n e o c c a si o n I w a s c a l l e d t o t h e h o u s e o n e
e v e n i n g t o a t t e n d t o t h e b a c ku p o f a s y st e m a n d m e t
S e r g i o . H e w a s a f ri e n d l y g u y b u t h e d i d n o t m e n t i o n
h i s s u r n a m e a n d d i d n o t m e n t i o n h i s w i f e ’s p o si t i o n . ”
S o i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m y st a t u s. I t h a d n o t h i n g
to do with who I am and as he says he was never even being
10

i n f o r m e d t h a t h e i s g o i n g t o b e w o r ki n g i n t h e h o u s e o f t h e
M i n i st e r o r a n M E C . A n d a s I h a v e s a i d I kn o w n o t h i n g a b o u t
t h i s t h i n g . T h e y a r e n o t i n m y s p a c e o f r e sp o n si b i l i t y a n d t o
m y kn o w l e d g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u c a n p r o c e e d M r N o t s h e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r – so M s M o k o n y a n e I j u st w a n t t o

t a k e y o u – so r r y M a ’ a m . I w a n t t o t a k e y o u b a c k t o B u n d l e C
i n R i c h a r d L e R o u x’s a ff i d a vi t .
C h a i r p e r s o n r e f e r re d y o u t o .

That is the page that the

Look at paragraph 20 of that

p a g e . P a g e 4 o f t h a t a ff i d a vi t . Yo u h a ve i t ?
20

M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I h a v e i t .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Look at paragraph 20.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I h a v e i t .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

J u st o n l y – I w a n t yo u t o g i v e j u st t o

e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a i r t h i s.

T h i s i s a W h a t sA p p m e s s a g e s e n t

t o R i c h a rd L e R o u x b y S a n d y. S a n d y s a y s: I w a n t t o re a d i t
Page 154 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
again.
“ D e a r R i c h a r d t h e re i s a p r o b l e m a t t h e h o u s e w i t h t h e a l a r m
s y st e m f o r s o m e r e a so n i t ke e p s ri n g i n g s o n o w i t h a s t o b e
s w i t c h e d o ff a t t h e s w i t c h . P l e a s e l e t m e k n o w w h a t t o d o . ”
Yo u r e a d t h a t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I d i d .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

From my reading I mean you can

p e r h a p s e x p l a i n t h i s.

I t i s i n t h e – s h e i s r e f e r ri n g – sh e i s

re p o rt i n g t h i s f o r t h e f i r st t i m e t h a t t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m a t t h e
10

house.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

S h e w a s a ct u a l l y i n d i c a t i n g t h a t a s sh e

was referred to talk to this person and hence even the
p e r s o n t h e n r e s p o n d e d a n d s a i d t h e a l a r m i s s o rt e d o u t . A n d
i n a l l h i s a ff i d a vi t s h e d o e s n o t t h e n f u rt h e r i n d i c a t e t h a t s h e
w a s – h e w a s t h e n c o n t a ct e d b y S a n d y t o t h e n c o m e a n d d o
A , B , C , D a f t e r h e h a d d e a l t w i t h t h i s m a t t e r.
ADV NOTSHE SC: But also here I would have noticed again
perhaps you will help the commission.
problem at the house.
20

H e s a y s t h e re i s a

She does not say which house as if

Le Roux knows the house.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h e re i s o n l y o n e h o u se a n d t h a t h o u s e

i s m y h o u s e . A n d I t a k e i t b e ca u s e S a n d y d i d n o t j u st t a l k t o
him Sandy was asked to communicate with BOSASA because
t h e y w e r e t h e g u y s a v a i l a b l e a l so i n t h e vi ci n i t y o v e r a n d
a b o v e o t h e r s e c u ri t y c o m p a n i e s.

A n d s u r e l y, h e w a s – I d o

Page 155 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
not know how he came to know which house but it does show
that there was communication about the – the house that is
being referred to.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Does it not again you will tell me if I am

wrong and explain.

Does this not indicate that Richard Le

Roux is referred to a house he had been to before? Because
h e i s n o t t o o [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 3 : 2 2 ] b y i t h e s a y s:
“ T h e r e i s a p r o b l e m a t t h e h o u se a n d h e r e s p o n d s t h e a l a r m
i s s o rt e d . ”
10

MS

M O K O N YA N E :

There

might

h a ve

been

telephonic

c o n ve r s a t i o n s t h a t t h e n e n d e d u p w i t h t h e W h a t s A p p .

I

c a n n o t a t t e st w h e t h e r h e h a s b e e n t o t h e h o u s e o r n o t b e e n
t o t h e h o u s e a n d I h a v e a l s o s a i d n e ve r h a v e I c a l l e d t h e m
nor have I met them in my house.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now of course Richard Le Roux that your

PA t a l k s t o o r s e n d s a m e s s a g e t o h a p p e n s t o b e t h e s a m e
m a n t h a t M r A g ri z zi h a s sa i d w a s g i v e n t h e r e sp o n si b i l i t y t o
l e a d t h e t e a m o r t o b e r e s p o n si b l e f o r a t t e n d i n g t o c e rt a i n
things in the house. It is the same person.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a t i s A g ri z zi ’s st o r y C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : A l l I k n o w i s a n i n st a n c e w h e re t h e a l a r m
had gone on.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

A n d o ff a n d i t n e e d e d a n i n t e r v e n t i o n
Page 156 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
b e ca u s e o f a c h a l l e n g e t h a t w e f a c e d w i t h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : A n y o t h e r t h i n g C h a i r a s i t i s st a t e d e v e n
h e r e I h a v e n e ve r b e e n i n t o u c h w i t h [ i n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 3 4 : 2 0 ] .

I

h a ve n e v e r b e e n i n t o u c h w i t h a n y o n e a n d a s t h e y a l so
a t t e st , t h e y a ct u a l l y i n t e r a ct e d w i t h t h e f a t h e r o f t h e h o u se .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w w h i l st y o u n o w o n t h a t – o n t h a t

a ff i d a vi t t u r n t o p a g e 2 o f t h e a ff i d a vi t o f L e R o u x. T h e r e h e
10

s e e m s t o e x p l a i n w h a t – yo u r e m e m b e r y o u h a d r e f e r r e d t h e
Chair

to

Mr

N i x o n ’s

a ff i d a vi t

regarding

the

i n v o i c e s.

P a r a g r a p h 11 M r R i c h a r d L e R o u x s a y s t h e f o l l o w i n g :
“I a m u n a b l e t o m a t c h a n y i n v o i c e s t o t h e w o r k d o n e a t
N o m vu l a M o k o n y a n e ’s r e si d e n c e . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m so r ry, I a m s o r r y, I a m s o rr y.

W h e re

you reading from now?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

H i s p l a c e – R i c h a r d L e R o u x’s a ff i d a vi t

C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a rl L e R o u x?
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : R i ch a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R i c h a r d L e R o u x.
A D V N O T S H E S C : R i ch a r d L e R o u x.
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second. Okay I am there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now he says on page – Chair I am on

page 2.
Page 157 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t R i c h a rd L e R o u x’s a ff i d a vi t i s i n

Bundle B.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Bundle C.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm no it is B.
A D V N O T S H E S C : R i ch a r d L e R o u x t h e y s a y h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Bundle C.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o y o u h a v e M s M o k o n ya n e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I [ A f ri c a n l a n g u a g e ] B u n d l e A I o n l y h a v e
10

Exhibit T21.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

We n e e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t h a s

one.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair we…hair we…
CHAIRPERSON:

E a rl i e r o n I w r o t e B u n d l e B b e c a u se I

b e l i e ve t h a t i s w h a t yo u s a i d . D i d I c o n f u s e t h i n g s ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No Bundle B Chair is there.

It is Ms

M o k o n y a n e ’s.
CHAIRPERSON: It is the big one ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ja t h e b i g o n e i s B u n d l e D a n d t h e n t h a t
20

is Bundle C.
CHAIRPERSON: So this is – what bundle is this?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Bundle C.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V N O T S H E S C : S o r ry, s o rr y I b e g yo u r p a r d o n C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

J u st f o r t h e p u r p o se s o f t h e re c o r d

Page 158 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
w h e r e v e r I h a v e re f e rr e d t o B u n d l e B a s b e i n g t h e b u n d l e
w h e r e M r R i ch a r d L e R o u x ’s a ff i d a vi t i s t h a t s h o u l d – t h a t
w a s a m i st a k e i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n B u n d l e C .

O k a y a l ri g h t

y o u sa i d p a r a g r a p h 11 ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : P a r a g r a p h 11 o n p a g e 2 o f …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e n I st a rt r e a d i n g :
“ T h i s i s t h e a ff i d a vi t o f R i c h a r d L e R o u x.

H e s a y s:

I am

u n a b l e t o m a t ch a n y i n v o i c e s t o t h e w o r k d o n e a t N o m vu l a
10

M o k o n y a n e ’s r e si d e n c e i n B l o u b e r g . ”
And then:
“A s t h e w o r k w a s p e rf o r m e d i n 2 0 1 3 a n d t h e i n v o i c e s f r o m
R e g a l S e c u ri t y a r e f r o m 2 0 1 4 o n w a rd s. ”
A n d t h e n p a r a g ra p h 1 2 .
“I t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e A g ri z zi c a sh a c c o u n t w a s o pe n e d w i t h
R e g a l S e c u ri t y i n 2 0 1 4 p ri o r t o t h i s w e m a y h a v e p u r c h a se d
i t e m s f o r s p e ci a l p r o j e ct s o n R e g a l S e c u ri t y u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t
name.”
N o w I a m r e f e r ri n g t h e w i t n e s s t o t h i s j u st t o – b e ca u s e h e

20

h a d r e f e r r e d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n t o t h e a ff i d a vi t o f N i x o n .
M S M O K O N YA N E : S h e – s h e .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Sorry Ms Mokonyane my Bantu education
c a u g h t u p w i t h m e t h e r e s o rr y. I r e f e r r e d t o h e r a s h e h a s –
a n d h e i n st e a d o f s h e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
Page 159 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : I a p o l o g i se f o r m y e d u c a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d i t i s s h e h a d r e f e rr e d t o – h e h a d

re f e rr e d y o u t o p a r a g r a p h – t o p a g e 1 5 8 w h e r e i n M r N i x o n
h a d s a i d t h e p u r c h a se s o f C C T V i s f ro m R e g a l S e c u ri t y
m a d e o n t h e A g ri z zi a c c o u n t c a n n o t b e m a t c h e d t o s e c u r e
T V i n st a l l a t i o n s.

So here he seems to be explaining that

gap.
CHAIRPERSON: H.
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yo u u n d e r st a n d M s M o k o n y a n e w h a t I

am...
M S M O K O N YA N E : I d o .
A D V N O T S H E S C : I a m j u st r e f e r ri n g yo u t o t h i s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I h e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w b e f o r e I l e a ve t h a t a ff i d a vi t – I a m

s o r r y t h a t – t h a t a ff i d a vi t M s M o k o n y a n e i s t h e C h a i r re f e rr e d
y o u t h e s a m e a ff i d a vi t w h e re M r L e R o u x s a y s h e m u st h a v e
20

g o n e t o yo u r h o u s e n o t l e s s t h a n t e n t i m e s.

Yo u w o u l d n o t

dispute that?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I d o n o t k n o w a n d o f t e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y I t h i n k t h a t w a s M r Va n B i l j o n

w h o sa i d n o – j a .
A D V N O T S H E S C : S o r r y I b e g y o u r p a r d o n M r Va n B i l j o n .
Page 160 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And you will not dispute that?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I would not know that and when he says

i t w a s a l so t h o s e m i n o r j o b s t h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

Th e r e

is

no

way

where

I

see

any

i n st r u ct i o n t h a t c a m e f r o m . E i t h e r m y h u s b a n d o r m y s e l f a s I
h a ve b e e n b r o u g h t t o t h i s c o m m i s si o n n o w t o c o m e a n d
a t t e st t o t h a t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w M s – l e t u s g o b a c k t o y o u r a ff i d a vi t
– now to Bundle B.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e re g o i n g t o M r C h a rl L e R o u x ’s

a ff i d a vi t o r h a v e y o u b e e n t h e r e w i t h o u t m e se e i n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair no what I did is I took your

summary of Charl Le Roux and I thought the witness had
then dealt with it in the sense that…
CHAIRPERSON:

No I think I dealt with – with – did I not

d e a l w i t h Va n B i l j o n o n l y.
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : D a vi d Va n B i l j o n b u t t h e n s u m m a ri s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g o t o C h a rl L e R o u x.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a rl L e R o u x i s i n – l o o k i n t h e p l a st i c

bundle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u m u st d e a l w i t h C h a rl L e R o u x.
ADV NOTSHE SC: No that is fine.

M s M o k o n y a n e M r C h a rl

Page 161 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
L e R o u x t e st i f i e d a n d h e a l s o g a v e – g a v e a st a t e m e n t a n d
h e t e st i f i e d .

His – look at Bundle A at T13 page 4 of that

bundle wherein she deals – he deals with the repairs at – at
y o u r h o u se .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e d i d y o u s a y w e m u st g o t o ?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Page 4.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Of T13 in Bundle A.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : A r e yo u t h e r e M s M o k o n y a n e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I a m .
A D V N O T S H E S C : U n d e r D – D r e p a i r s a n d m a i n t e n a n ce .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A t – a t yo u r h o u s e .

He says on – I am

re a d i n g t h i s.
“O n a n o c ca s i o n d u ri n g 2 0 1 7 o r 2 0 1 8 I w a s a g a i n c o n t a ct e d
by

Mr

Va n

Biljon

to

go

to

the

p r e m i se s

si t u a t e d

at

N o o r d h e u w e l w h e re I w a s t o m e e t M r L e R o u x. I n d e e d , I d i d .
I n f a ct m e t M r L e R o u x t h e re a n d h e a r ra n g e d f o r u s t o e n t e r
20

t h e p r e m i s e s.

T h e p r e m i s e s I re c a l l h a d a h i g h f e n c e a n d

g u a r d h o u s e t o t h e l e f t si d e a t t h e e n t r a n c e .

There was a

g u a r d p o st a t t h e g u a r d h o u s e . ”
Do you have any comment about that?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h e re i s a g u a r d h o u s e .

a l w a y s a g u a rd .
Page 162 of 214

And there is

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d h e s a y s:
“Here I recall”
I a m n o w r e a d i n g p a r a g ra p h 1 7 .
“ H e r e I r e ca l l t h a t t h e g e n e ra t o r w o u l d n o t st a rt o n a u t o m a t i c
when the power went out.

S o t h e o c cu p a n t s h a d t o g o

o u t si d e t o st a rt t h e g e n e r a t o r.

T h e g e n e r a t o r w a s si t u a t e d

behind the garage in a cage with wires fed through the wall
i n t o t h e g a r a g e w h e r e t h e y w e r e c o n n e ct e d t o t h e co n t r o l
panel.
10

I h a d d i ff i c u l t y i n re s o l vi n g t h e p ro b l e m .

S o M r Va n

B i l j o n c a m e t o a s si st . ”
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s – t o t h i s p a rt i c u l a r – d o y o u
c o n f i r m t h a t y o u r g e n e r a t o r a t so m e st a g e h a d a p r o b l e m ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

The generator has had challenges like

a n y o t h e r y o u k n o w m a ch i n e a n d a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h i s
was the responsibility of my own late husband as he has also
c o n f i r m e d t h a t h e w a s r e sp o n si b l e f o r t h e u p k e e p a n d t h e
m a i n t e n a n ce o f t h e h o u se .

A n d o f co u r s e , t h e g e n e r a t o r i s

b e h i n d t h e h o u s e n o t e ve n b e h i n d t h e g a r a g e .

It is at the

b a c k o f t h e h o u s e a n d I t h i n k w h e n t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s w e n t ,
20

t h e y s a w t h e g e n e r a t o r.

I w a n t t o a s s u m e b e ca u s e I w a s

n e ve r t h e r e . I w a s n o t i n t h e i r c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And you confirm that it is in a cage with
wires fed through the wall into the garage?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s i t i s w i r e d .

I t a l so h a s t h e w i re s n o t

Page 163 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
in

the

garage,

not

i n si d e

the

garage.

The

wires

and

e v e r yt h i n g o f t h e g e n e r a t o r i s o n a s h e d n e xt t o t h e g a r a g e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h e y a re f e d t h ro u g h f r o m t h e g e n e r a t o r

t h r o u g h t h e – t o t h e sh e d ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Now he says on page 18:
“ We r e p l a ce d l i g h t s f i t t e d t o t h e si d e o f t h e w a l l s o n e i t h e r
si d e o f t h e st a i r s.

T h e o ri g i n a l l i g h t s w e r e o l d a n d n o t

f u n ct i o n i n g p ro p e rl y s o w e r e p l a c e d t h e m w i t h n e w r o u n d
10

l i g h t s.

We a l s o r e p l a ce d b l o w n g l o b e s a n d I r e c a l l c a r r yi n g

o u t r e p a i r s o n t h e f o u n t a i n si t u a t e d i n t h e c o r n e r. L e t u s j u st
st o p b e f o r e yo u d e a l w i t h t h e b l o w n g l o b e s. Yo u c o n f i rm t h a t
t h e l i g h t s o n t h e st a i r s h a d p r o b l e m s a n d t h e y h a d t o b e
re p l a c e d ? D o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h a t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

E v e n n o w p o st t h e d e a t h o f m y h u s b a n d

w e d o a ct u a l l y d o t h e m a i n t e n a n c e o f t h e g l o b e s a n d i t i s
c o m m o n ca u s e t h a t g l o b e s w i l l g o o n a n d o ff .

But for this

p a rt i c u l a r m i s si o n n o t t o m y kn o w l e d g e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

B u t y o u d o – yo u w o u l d c o n f i rm t h a t

t h e r e a r e l i g h t s t h a t a r e f i t t e d o n t h e si d e o f t h e w a l l s o n
e i t h e r si d e o f t h e st a i r s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h e r e a r e t h o s e l i g h t s o n t h e st a i r ca s e s

getting into the house.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d h e s a y s:
“ We a l s o r e p a i r e d b l o w n g l o b e s a n d I r e ca l l c a r r yi n g o u t
Page 164 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
re p a i r s o n t h e f o u n t a i n si t u a t e d i n a c o r n e r.

I recall that we

had to fit a small pump to the fountain in order to pump the
w a t e r o u t a n d t h e n I t h i n k I r e p l a c e d so m e l i g h t s i n t h e
fountain.”
H e re M s M o k o n y a n e d o y o u c o n f i r m yo u h a v e a f o u n t a i n i n
t h e – si t u a t e d i n t h e co r n e r o f y o u r p r e m i s e s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : We h a ve g o t a f o u n t a i n w i t h t h r e e p o t s a t
t h e b a c k o f t h e h o u se .

T h a t i s a f a ct .

B i g b r o w n p o t s.

We

h a ve a f i s h p o n d n e xt t o t h e s w i m m i n g p o o l a n d t h o s e a r e
10

t h e f e a t u r e s.

Then we have a little corner of a fountain that

has never been put to use.
1. Because we wanted to save water and
2. Because it was not of any use to us because it is
o b s cu r e d – i t i s f a r f r o m o u r si d e a n d f r o m a n yt h i n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Do you have…
M S M O K O N YA N E : I t i s n o t e v e n i n u s e a s w e s p e a k.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

D o y o u h a v e – o f a n y kn o w l e d g e o f

w o r k s d o n e o n a p u m p si t u a t e d a t t h e c o r n e r ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e C h a i r p e r s o n . A s
20

I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h e m b e i n g co n t r a ct e d t o c o m e a n d
do this job.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Then he said:
“ w e ca r ri e d o u t m a i n t e n a n c e o n a b o u t f o u r o c ca si o n s w i t h i n
a m o n t h p e ri o d a s w e h a d o t h e r w o r k t h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h
s o w e re t u r n e d w h e n w e h a d – w h e n I h a d t h e t i m e .
Page 165 of 214

On

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
o t h e r o c c a si o n s M r L e R o u x d i d n o t a c c o m p a n y u s a n d I
w o u l d h o o t a t t h e g a t e w h e re t h e g u a r d w o u l d l e t u s i n . ”
D o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h i s?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

N o I d o n o t k n o w.

I n e v e r w a s p a rt o f

a r r a n g i n g t h e i r vi s i t s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

B u t yo u w o u l d c o n f i r m t h a t t h e g u a r d s

w o u l d n o t j u st l e t a n y o n e t h e r e .

They would let someone

t h a t h a d b e e n a u t h o ri s e d t o a d m i t t o y o u r h o u s e – t o y o u r
premises?
10

M S M O K O N YA N E :
a c c e s s.

O f c o u r se , n o b o d y w o u l d h a v e e a s y

T h e y w o u l d h a ve t o b e g r a n t e d a c c e s s b y t h e

s e c u ri t y g u a r d s a s i t i s p a rt o f t h e i r re s p o n si b i l i t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w o u l d – w o u l d i t b e c o rr e ct t h a t t h e

s e c u ri t y g u a r d s w o u l d n o t a l l o w a n y b o d y i n t h a t t h e f a m i l y o r
s o m e b o d y i n t h e f a m i l y h a s n o t sa i d s h o u l d b e a l l o w e d i n ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

S o i f t h e y a l l o w e d a n yb o d y i n i t

would have – it would have had to be that…
M S M O K O N YA N E : I t w o u l d h a v e t o b e a r ra n g e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

That either somebody in the family has –

h a d a u t h o ri s e d .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A n d i n t e rm s o f m a i n t e n a n c e w o r k o r

t h e i n st a l l a t i o n o f a n yt h i n g w o u l d i t b e c o rr e ct t o t h i n k t h a t
t h e o n l y p e r s o n s w h o c o u l d a u t h o r i se i n t h e h o u s e w o u l d
Page 166 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
e i t h e r y o u r s e l f o r y o u r l a t e h u s b a n d o r c o u l d t h e r e h a ve
b e e n s o m e b o d y e l s e w h o c o u l d a u t h o ri s e o r m a k e t h o s e
a r r a n g e m e n t s?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I w o u l d n e v e r m a k e a n y a u t h o ri s a t i o n s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t m a k e a n y a u t h o ri s a t i o n .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
to

carry

out

B u t i n t e rm s o f p e o p l e e n t e ri n g t h e h o u se

a n yt h i n g

like

if

you

would

not

make

any

a u t h o ri s a t i o n t h e n i t w o u l d h a ve h a d t o b e y o u r h u s b a n d –
10

your late husband.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t ri g h t . O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now paragraph 19 in page 5 Chair says

that:
“ M r L e R o u x a n d Mr Va n B i l j o n h a d a l so i n f o rm e d m e f r o m
t h e o u t s e t t h a t I m u st n o t a s k q u e s t i o n s a b o u t w h o t h e o w n e r
was and that I should never admit or disclose what work I
h a d ca r ri e d o u t a t t h e p r e m i se s.

W h i l st w o r ki n g i n t h e

g a r a g e I n o t i ce d w h a t a p p e a re d t o b e a v e h i cl e c o ve re d i n a
20

tarpaulin.

O u t o f c u ri o si t y I l i f t e d t h e t a r p a u l i n u p a n d

n o t i ce d a n e w l o o ki n g A st o n M a rt i n ve h i c l e p a r k e d u n d e r t h e
tarpaulin.

T h e v e h i cl e w a s d a r k i n c o l o u r a n d i t c o u l d h a v e

b e e n e i t h e r d a r k b l u e o r b l a c k.

I then knew that the person

re s i d i n g a t t h e p re m i s e s h a d t o b e v e r y ri c h t o a ff o r d a
v e h i cl e l i k e t h a t . ”
Page 167 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

M a rt i n .

C h a i r p e r so n

ye s

there

is

a n A st o n

T h e A st o n M a rt i n i s n e i t h e r b l a c k n o r b l u e .

It is

c re a m w h i t e a n d c re a m w h i t e b l a c k a n d b l u e a ct u a l l y d e p i ct s
that maybe the person was informed or the person was
i n si d e t h e g a r a g e .

B u t t h e f a ct t h a t h e w a n t s t o – s a i d o n

re c o r d i n h i s a ff i d a vi t t h a t h e h a s s w o rn h i s o a t h o f – I d o n o t
k n o w w h e t h e r h e a ff i rm e d o r h e d i d w h a t e v e r. H e s a y s i t w a s
– i t w a s e i t h e r d a r k o r b l u e . T h e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n t h a t ki n d
o f A st o n M a rt i n i n m y h o u s e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n h e g a v e e vi d e n c e h e re i t w a s t h e

d a y a f t e r h e h a d b e e n p a rt o f t h e v i s i t t o yo u r h o u s e . T h a t i s
M r C h a rl L e R o u x.
M S M O K O N YA N E : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

And I think he said that when they made

t h a t vi si t t o y o u r h o u s e r e c e n t l y, t h e y d i d s e e a n A st o n
M a rt i n b u t h e s a i d I t h i n k h e s a i d i t w a s w h i t e .

Either he

s a i d t h a t o r M r N o t s h e s a i d t h a t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V N O T S H E S C : H e s a i d – t h e w i t n e s s s a i d t h a t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s a n d t h e n h e w a s a s k e d t h e q u e st i o n

t h a t i n h i s a ff i d a v i t e a rl i e r h e h a d s a i d t h a t h e h a d s e e n a n
A st o n M a rt i n t h a t w a s e i t h e r b l u e o r b l a c k.
seemed unsure.

And he then

I t h i n k h e m i g h t h a ve s a i d h e i s n o t s u re

whether the one he had seen was black or blue.

I do not

k n o w w h e t h e r h e s a i d o r w h i t e b e c a u se I t h i n k I e v e n sa i d
b u t t h e re i s a b i g d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n b l u e o r b l a c k a n d w h i t e .
Page 168 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
S o b e c a m e u n s u r e w h e n h e w a s g i vi n g e vi d e n c e h e r e .

But

t h e – t h e q u e st i o n t h a t I w a n t t o p o s e a n d m a y b e y o u h a v e
a n s w e r e d i t i s – a t t h e t i m e h e i s t a l ki n g a b o u t 2 0 1 5 o r i s i t
2014 Mr Notshe – or is it 2017?
ADV NOTSHE SC: 2017.2018.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Yo u – t h e r e w a s n o A st o n M a rt i n i n

t h e f a m i l y t h a t co u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e g a r a g e t h a t w a s d a r k
o r b l a c k.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

T h e r e w a s n e v e r a d a r k o r b l u e A st o n

M a rt i n e ve n a t t h a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

C h a i rp e r s o n w h i c h a l so d e m o n st r a t e s

t h a t h e m i g h t h a v e b e e n m i sl e a d i n g t h i s c o m m i s si o n b e ca u s e
h e i s r e f e rri n g t o t h e co n n e ct i o n s o f t h e g e n e r a t o r i n si d e t h e
g a r a g e w h e n t h e c o n n e ct i o n s h a v e a l w a y s b e e n o u t si d e o f
the garage.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M O K O N YA N E : A n d s o I j u st t a k e e x ce p t i o n t h a t h e e v e n
w e n t t o t h e e xt e n t o f – yo u k n o w t h e y cu ri o si t y h a s ki l l e d t h e
20

c a t h e w e n t a n d e v e n l i f t e d t h e co v e r o f t h e c a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
white.

B u t h e st i l l s a w b l a c k o r b l u e a n d s a w

T h e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n s u c h a c o l o u r o f a n A st o n

M a rt i n i n m y h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y a l ri g h t . Ye s M r N o t s h e .
Page 169 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

J u st t h e – a n d t e l l m e – j u st t e l l t h e

c o m m i s si o n t h i s A st o n M a rt i n i s i t re g i st e r e d t h i s – i n w h a t
c o l o u r i s – w a s i t r e g i st e r e d ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I t i s re g i st e r e d i t i s i n c r e a m .

Th e s a m e

c o l o u r a s t h a t w e f o u n d t h i s – t h e t i m e w h e n t h e c o m m i s si o n
w e n t t o vi si t m y h o u se .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I t h a s n e v e r b e e n s p r a ye d , i t h a d n e v e r

b e e n c h a n g e d . I t h a s a l w a y s b e e n t h a t c o l o u r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

How long has – has – have you had

it?
M S M O K O N YA N E : F ro m 2 0 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: From 2013?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now Ma’am I think that this would be an

i s s u e . W h i l st y o u a r e o n t h e – o n t h e b u n d l e B u n d l e A – y o u
st i l l h a v e B u n d l e A t h e r e w i t h y o u – M r Va n – Ye s t h a t
bundle.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Go to – Chair can we go to Exhibit T16

I n s p e ct i o n I n L o c o .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Page T16.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 16?
Page 170 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No T16 page – Exhibit T16.

Sorry Chair

I t e n d t o – I t e n d t o w o n d e r o ff .
CHAIRPERSON:

No that is – that is – there is no exhibit

T16.
ADV NOTSHE SC: On Bundle A.
CHAIRPERSON: On A – what page on Bundle A?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

The pages Chair on Bundle A they go

according to their exhibits in.

Does Chair know – is there is

no – no 16?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y i s t h a t s o b e c a u se I h a ve b e e n sa y i n g
that that should not be like that?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair if I recall.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s h o u l d b e se q u e n t i a l .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I f I re c a l l y o u – yo u g a v e i n s t ru ct i o n s

t h a t – r e m e m b e r t h i s b u n d l e c a m e a s T 1 3 t h e n w e sa i d i t
s h o u l d b e b r o k e n u p i n t o l i k e T 1 3 w o u l d b e C h a rl L e R o u x
a ff i d a vi t .

T 1 4 w o u l d b e t h e st a t e m e n t s o f Va n B i l j o n .

T15

w o u l d b e t h e a ff i d a vi t o f Va n B i l j o n a n d t h e n T 1 6 i s t h e
m e m o ra n d u m o n t h e i n s p e ct i o n i n l o c o .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y

I

see

this

document

with

a

m e m o ra n d u m j a w i t h a n i n d e x. We l l i t i s n o t e v e n m a r ke d i n
terms of page numbers at the top.
A D V N O T S H E S C : I d o n o t u n d e r st a n d h o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh that is 1.

Remember we – so it is a

d o cu m e n t w ri t t e n T 1 6 – MI I L - 0 1 .
Page 171 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

Ja t h i s – s o m e t h i n g s h o u l d h a v e

d o n e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h i s w o u l d b e u se r f ri e n d l y. O k a y l e t
u s g e t g o i n g . Ye s j u st co n t i n u e .
A D V N O T S H E S C : A r e yo u t h e r e M s M o k o n y a n e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I a m C h a i r.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
explain to you.

O k a y.

L o o k a t – t h i s i s – o ka y l e t m e

This is a memorandum which was – which

w a s a s si g n e d b y b o t h a n d r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s o f t h e c o m m i s si o n
10

a n d y o u r r e p r e s e n t a t i ve s a b o u t t h e o b s e r v a t i o n s t h a t w e re
m a d e a t yo u r p l a c e . N o w l o o k a t p a ra g r a p h 2 o n p a g e 0 1 .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : I t s a y s:
“G e n e ra t o r s si t u a t e d b e h i n d g a ra g e i n a ca g e w i t h w i re s f e d
t h r o u g h t h e w a l l i n t o t h e g a r a g e w h e r e t h e y a r e c o n n e ct e d t o
a control panel.”
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s.

That – it is that shed.

Because

re m e m b e r t h e g a r a g e s h a v e g o t t h o s e d o o r s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
20

M S M O K O N YA N E : A n d t h e re i s t h a t s h e d t h a t I a m r e f e r ri n g
t o w h i ch c a n b e re f e rr e d t o a s a g a r a g e b u t i t i s a s h e d i t
d o e s n o t e ve n h a v e w h a t y o u c a l l i t – i t d o e s n o t e v e n h a v e
d o o r s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d o o r j a o k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

B u t t h i s o b s e r v a t i o n c o n f i rm s C h a rl L e
Page 172 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
R o u x’s a ff i d a vi t .
M S M O K O N YA N E :

B u t t h i s o b s e r v a t i o n a ct u a l l y t a l k s a b o u t

the control panel.

T h a t c o n t r o l p a n e l i t i s st i l l a s w e s p e a k

n o w a n o r a n g e i t i s o n t h a t sh e d w h i c h m a y b e s e e n a s t h e
f o u rt h g a r a g e , t h e f o u rt h d o o r.

And that is why I accepted

this information.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair with your leave then I will move to
– b a c k t o t h e st a t e m e n t o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h b u n d l e a r e y o u m o vi n g t o n o w ?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

No I will move back to the main bundle

a n d j u st …
CHAIRPERSON: Are you done with…
A D V N O T S H E S C : J u st o n e s e c o n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r C h a rl L e R o u x ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

J u st o n e s e c o n d b e f o r e I d o t h a t .

If we

j u st st i c ki n g t o t h e – t o B u n d l e A t h e a ff i d a vi t o f C h a rl L e
R o u x p a r a g r a p h 2 0 h e m a i n l y sa y s t h a t – a re y o u t h e r e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I a m t h e r e . 2 0 ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 20?
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o p a ra g r a p h 2 0 o f C h a rl L e R o u x.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : W h i ch i s p a g e 5 . H e sa y s:
“I n e v e r s a w t h e o w n e r o f t h e p re m i s e s a s w h e n I w o u l d g o
there

only

the

maid

and

the

s e c u ri t y

Page 173 of 214

guard

would

be

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
present.”
Do you see that?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s I s e e . Ye s I s e e t h a t C h a i r p e r so n .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d j u st o n t h i s I m e a n t h e p e r s o n w h o

w o r k s t h e re a s a h e l p e r I a m s u r e i f t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o
a r e u n a u t h o r i se d w e re g o i n g t o y o u r h o u s e sh e w o u l d r e p o rt
i t t o yo u ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h e y w o u l d – t h e y w i l l r e p o rt t o t h e

immediate person who would be the owner of the house
10

e s p e c i a l l y o n m a t t e r s r e l a t e d t o m a i n t e n a n ce a n d t h e u p
keeping of the security of it not to me.
CHAIRPERSON:

What

appears

–

what

appears

to

be

i n d i s p u t a b l e a n d y o u m u st t e l l m e i f y o u a g r e e w i t h m e .
W h a t a p p e a r s t o b e i n d i s p u t a b l e i s t h a t t h i s M r Va n B i l j o n ’s
c o m p a n y d i d so m e w o r k i n y o u r r e si d e n ce .

P e rf o r m e d s o m e

j o b s a n d t h a t M r Va n B i l j o n a n d o r M r C h a rl L e R o u x a n d M r
R i c h a r d L e R o u x f ro m B O S A S A a l l h a d b e e n t o y o u r h o u s e
a n d t h a t M r Va n B i l j o n a s t h e o w n e r o f t h e c o m p a n y s a y s f o r
t h e w o r k t h a t t h e y d i d i n y o u r h o u se t h e y w e r e p a i d b y
20

B O S A S A a n d t h e y w e r e t h e r e b e c a u se B O S A S A i n st ru ct e d
them to go there.

N o w, y o u h a v e a l re a d y sa i d t h a t y o u d o

n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e t h e r e o r t h e y w e r e n o t t h e re .
T h i s d i d n o t f a l l w i t h i n y o u r r e s p o n s i b i l i t y. I t f e l l w i t h i n t h e . . .
y o u r l a t e h u s b a n d ’s r e sp o n si b i l i t y.
A n d i f a n y b o d y c a m e t o d o t h i s ki n d o f w o r k, i t w o u l d
Page 174 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
h a ve f a l l e n u n d e r t h e r e s p o n si b i l i t y o f y o u r l a t e h u s b a n d .
But you have also said, if he had arranged for a company
t h a t w a s c o n n e ct e d w i t h B O S A S A i n w a y o r a n o t h e r t o c o m e
a n d p e rf o r m w o r k , h e p r o b a b l y w o u l d h a v e s h a re d t h a t w i t h
you.

S o f a r, a r e y o u w i t h m e ?

M S M O K O N YA N E : I a m w i t h y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e w i t h m e .

Are you able to accept

t h a t m a y b e w h a t I h a v e j u st s a i d i s w h a t h a p p e n e d ?

What

re m a i n s m a y b e i s w h e t h e r y o u r h u s b a n d a ct u a l l y m a d e t h e
10

a r r a n g e m e n t s f o r t h e se p e o p l e t o c o m e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e f a ct t h a t I d o a n d a s I

h a ve s a i d e v e n i n r e a ct i o n t o t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s, b e ca u s e
w h a t m y h u sb a n d s a i d , “ T h e s e p e o p l e a r e c r a z y”.

He is

re s p o n si b l e f o r t h e u p k e e p o f s e c u r i t y a n d m a i n t e n a n c e .
T h e y m i g h t h a ve b e e n t o t h e h o u s e b e c a u s e o f t h e
c h a l l e n g e o f t h o s e a l a r m s t h a t w e n t o n a n d o ff a n d u p o n
them being in the house, they might have then done all these
things

but

not

as

per

my

i n st r u ct i o n s

and

not

to

my

knowledge.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

[coughing]

Excuse me.

T h e f a ct

t h a t y o u r l a t e h u s b a n d s a i d a t t h e t i m e o f t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s
a rt i c l e o r r e p o rt , t o t h e e ff e ct t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e t a l ki n g
nonsense.

C a n I t a ke i t t h a t w h a t h e m e a n t w a s:

“I do not

k n o w a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h e s e p e o p l e c o m i n g t o t h e h o u s e ”.
Can I take it you mean that or what should I take it to mean?
Page 175 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : I t a ke i t t o m e a n t h a t h e h a s n e v e r a s k e d
them to come and do any work in the house.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, in the house.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Other than that intervention as recorded

i n t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y e s.

Ye s, b e ca u s e y o u s e e . . . a n d I

h a ve g o t t o p u t t h e s e t h i n g s t o y o u s o t h a t y o u c a n a s si st m e
10

b e ca u s e i n t h e e n d w h e n a l l o f y o u a r e g o n e , I a m t h e o n e
w h o w i l l r e m a i n w i t h t h e r e sp o n si b i l i t y t o s a y w h a t a ct u a l l y
happened here.
I f t h e p o si t i o n i s t h a t M r Va n B i l j o n ’s c o m p a n y d i d co m e
t o y o u r h o u s e , d i d p e rf o r m c e rt a i n j o b s o t h e r t h a n t h e si n g l e
i n ci d e n t t h a t y o u h a ve r e f e r r e d t o , a n d y o u r h u s b a n d h a d n o t
a r r a n g e d f o r t h e m t o c o m e a n d y o u h a v e n o t a rr a n g e d f o r
them

to

come,

the

q u e st i o n

a ri s e s:

Who

would

have

a r r a n g e d f o r t h e m t o co m e ?
B e c a u s e t h e g u a r d s, t h e s e c u ri t y a t t h e g a t e , a s I
20

u n d e r st a n d i t , w o u l d n o t a l l o w a n y b o d y t o c o m e i n u n l e s s
t h e y h a d a u t h o ri t y f ro m w i t h i n t h e f a m i l y t o s a y a l l o w so a n d
so to come in.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

C h a i r p e r s o n , a s I h a v e sa i d a n d a s o n e

of the people have indicated. They came to the house in one
i n st a n c e

and

that

is

when

they

Page 176 of 214

met

the

person

who

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
i n t r o d u c e d t h e m s e l v e s a s S e r g e a n d t h a t i s t h e i n st a n c e .
I do not know whether it was at a time when they were
coming to fix what we had ask them to come and deal with or
not and that in the course of doing that, they then saw all
t h e se f e a t u re s i n t h e h o u se a n d w h a t e v e r t h a t h a p p e n e d
t h e r e . I d o n o t kn o w C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Notshe.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now Ms Mokonyane, let us go back to

Annexure B, the main file.
10

n o w.

Yo u c a n p u t t h e o t h e r s a w a y f o r

N o w M r A g r i z zi i n h i s m a i n a ff i d a vi t o n p a g e . . . o n

p a r a g ra p h 2 2 . 6 a n d 2 2 . 7 re f e r s t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : O n p a g e 4 6 o r 4 7 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. Mr N o t s h e a n d M s
Mokonyane.

We h a v e j u st g o n e p a st f o u r o ’ cl o c k.

n o r m a l l y st o p a t f o u r.

We

So if we are going to go beyond four

o ’ cl o c k, l e t m e m a k e su r e t h a t e v e r yb o d y i s h a p p y w i t h t h a t .
S t a rt i n g w i t h yo u M s M o k o n y a n e .

A r e yo u h a p p y t h a t w e

proceed?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I a m h a p p y C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e h a p p y ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u r l e g a l t e a m ?
U N I D E N T I F I E D S P E A K E R : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

Thank you.

are available?
Page 177 of 214

Mr Notshe, you

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC: I have no choice.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a . [ l a u g h s]

Maybe... let us have an idea.

I d o n o t t h i n k w e s h o u l d t a ke t o o l o n g b u t M r N o t s h e m i g h t
h a ve a d i ff e r e n t vi e w, b u t i t i s i m p o rt a n t t h a t a l l i m p o rt a n t
i s s u e s b e c o v e re d a n d M s M o k o n ya n e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o d e a l
w i t h a l l o f t h e m a n d p u t h e r si d e o f t h e st o r y p r o p e rl y b u t
si n c e w e a r e g o i n g t o p r o ce e d .
M a y b e w e s h o u l d t a k e a sh o rt c o m f o rt b r e a k a n d t h e n
we continue.
10

I d o n o t k n o w b u t m y e st i m a t e i t t h a t o n ce w e

re s u m e , w e s h o u l d n o t t a k e l o n g e r t h a n a n h o u r.

That

i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV NOTSHE SC: It should not be more than...
CHAIRPERSON: It should not, ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : B u t i t d e p e n d s o n a c h i e vi n g m o r e t h a n . . .
CHAIRPERSON:
b r e a k.

O k a y.

N o , t h a t i s a l ri g h t .

I t i s n o w a b o u t t e n p a st f o u r.

Let us take a

Let us resume at

t w e n t y-f i v e p a st f o u r. We a d j o u rn .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:
A g ri z zi

made.

The

w i t h t h e a d d i t i o n a l a ff i d a vi t t h a t M r
additional

a ff i d a vi t . . .

supplementary

a ff i d a vi t a p p e a r s C h a i r o n p a g e 3 8 8 . 1 o f t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a y o f t h e r e co r d , y o u a r e g o i n g
to...?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Of Bundle B.
Page 178 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON: At what page?
A D V N O T S H E S C : 3 8 8 . 1 . I t st a rt s t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I s i t 3 8 1 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

388.1.

388 point 1.

T h a t i s M r A g ri z zi ’s

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t . We l l , t h e n u m b e r i s i n t h e m i d d l e o f
t h e p a g e . I t i s n o t a t t h e c o r n e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E : O h , j a .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t i s t h e o n e w e w e r e t a l ki n g a b o u t i n

t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, t h a n k y o u . I h a v e f o u n d i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M O K O N YA N E : I a m l o o ki n g a t t h i s C h a i r.
A D V N O T S H E S C : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, C h a i r.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w o n p a g e 3 8 9 o f t h a t a ff i d a vi t , M r

A g ri z zi d e a l s w i t h . . . t h e C h a i r r e f e r r e d y o u t o t h i s , t o t h i s
i s s u e w h e r e i t i s “ I w a s p r e s e n t . . . ” I a m r e a d i n g M r A g r i z zi ’s
a ff i d a vi t . H e s a y s :
20

“I w a s p e r s o n a l l y t h e r e w h e n c a s h w a s d e l i v e r e d o n
t w o o c c a si o n s.
w a s P r e m i e r.

T h e o n e w a s i n B r y a n st o n w h i l st s h e
We h a d t o m e e t h e r w i t h t h e M E C o f

S o ci a l o f D e ve l o p m e n t .
T h e m e e t i n g w a s re g a rd i n g i n ci d e n t s a t t h e Yo u t h
Development Centre at Mogale where we had to
Page 179 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
a s si st t o a c co m m o d a t i n g y o u t h f r o m a n o t h e r st a t e o w n e d f a ci l i t y.
We s a t i n t h e l o u n g e f o r a b o u t t w o h o u r s w a i t i n g .
T h e r e a f t e r, w e h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h h e r. G a vi n Wa t s o n
h a d e a rl i e r t h a t d a y p a c ke d R 5 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 i n a g r e y
s e c u ri t y b a g a n d p l a c e d i t i n h i s b ri e f c a se .
O n c e t h e m e e t i n g w a s co n cl u d e d , h e l e f t t h e g r e y
b a g w i t h t h e R 5 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 w i t h h e r o n t h e c h a i r. . . ”
M S M O K O N YA N E : C h a i r p e r s o n , I s t i l l d e n y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

. . . w h a t M r A g ri z zi i s s a yi n g .

I have

n e ve r r e c e i v e d c a s h a n d t h e r e i s n o c a s h t h a t w a s e v e r l e f t
o n t h e c h a i r b y M r G a vi n Wa t so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

A n d y o u s a i d h e h a s n e ve r b e e n t o

y o u r h o u se ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

He has never been in a meeting with me

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: In the... ja.
M S M O K O N YA N E : . . . i n t h e h o u s e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s, M r N o t s h e .
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

And

then

in

p a rt

of

14.3

of

his

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t , h e t h e n s a y s t h a t o n t h e s e c o n d
o c c a si o n w h e n t h e m o n e y w a s d e l i v e r e d , i t w a s d e l i v e r e d t o
y o u r h o u se a n d h e w a s p r e s e n t i n K r u g e r s d o r p . A n d y o u s a y
y o u h a v e n e ve r. . . h e h a s n e v e r b e e n t o y o u r h o u s e ?
Page 180 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : I h a v e n o t b e e n i n a m e e t i n g , n o r w i t h M r
A g ri z zi i n m y p r e s e n ce i n t h e h o u s e . N o t e v e n r e c e i v e d t h a t
c a s h t h a t h e i s r e f e r ri n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w i n h i s a n s w e r. . . a n d h i s a n s w e r t o

y o u r a ff i d a vi t . H i s a n s w e r o n p a g e 8 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. W h i ch a ff i d a v i t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o , t h e a n s w e r … w h e r e M r A g ri z zi

a n s w e r s t o M s M o k o n ya n e ’s a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON: On this issue?
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e k n o w t h a t h e c a n o n l y b e a n s w e ri n g
t o a d e n i a l t h a t h e . . . I t h i n k j u st g o t h e r e .

What does he

say?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o , h e j u st m e re l y e x p r e s s e s t o s a y h e

h a s b e e n t h e r e a n u m b e r o f t i m e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d . . . o r I a m a l s o re f e rr i n g t o i t , j u st t o
p u t o n re c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, no. It is fine.
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d u n f o rt u n a t e l y, . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

No, I think it is fine because there

a r e t h e s e c ri s p i s s u e s t h a t w e a l l h a ve co m e t o k n o w.

We

k n o w t h a t M r A g ri z zi s a i d M s M o k o n ya n e r e c e i v e d . . . w a s
paid... was given monthly payments by BOSASA.
denied that.
Page 181 of 214

She has

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
We k n o w t h a t M r A g ri z zi sa i d h e h a s b e e n t o b o t h
b u si n e s s m e e t i n g s a n d so ci a l vi si t s o r s o ci a l a n d m e e t i n g o r
e n co u n t e r s w i t h M s M o k o n y a n e . S h e h a s d e n i e d t h a t .
We k n o w t h a t Mr A g ri z zi sa i d h e w a s e v e n a s. . . a n d
a ct u a l l y, I t h i n k h e s a i d , h e c o o r d i n a t e d M s M o k o n y a n e ’s 5 0 t h
b i rt h d a y c e l e b ra t i o n p a rt y a n d M s M o k o n ya n e s a i d , “ N o ,
t h e r e i s n o t h i n g l i k e t h a t ”.
S o t h e r e a r e t h e s e t h i n g s t h a t w e k n o w a l r e a d y. A g ri z zi
has said and Ms Mokonyane has denied them. So we do not
10

need to repeat those.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u ca n m o v e f ro m t h e re .

The one

a b o u t re c e i vi n g c a s h , I d o n o t t h i n k h e e l a b o r a t e s m u c h ,
A g ri z zi .
A D V N O T S H E S C : We l l , o n l y h e d o e s w h e r e I w a s r e f e r ri n g
t o n o w, i t i s. . . t h e r e w a s a n i s s u e w i t h t h a t w i t h w h e r e h e
t h e n d e s c ri b e s M s Mo k o n y a n e ’s h o u s e i n si d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: But Ms Mokonyane has dealt with that.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : We h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : We h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t i s s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:
whether

it

is

Ja, ja.
t ru e

M o k o n y a n e ’s h o u s e .

that

B e c a u se t h e r e i t i s a q u e st i o n o f
Mr

A g ri z zi

has

been

to

Ms

A n d i f i t i s t ru e w h e t h e r h e i s. . . i t i s

t ru e t h a t M r G a vi n l e f t m o n e y o r a s e c u ri t y m o n e y w i t h
Page 182 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
R 5 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 f o r M s M o k o n y a n e a n d M s M o k o n ya n e ’s v e r s i o n
i n r e g a rd t o t h a t i t h a s b e e n g i ve n .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

We l l , C h a i r I w i l l l e a v e t h o s e a n d t h e n

j u st d e a l w i t h t h e i s s u e s . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, that is fine.

J a , w h e re t h e r e i s

elaboration. If it is the same thing.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

If there is an elaboration that we have not

t o u ch e d o n , t h e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, y e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a v o i d g o i n g b a c k t o t h i s s a m e t h i n g .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.

N o , I u n d e r st a n d .

Now on 14.5 on

p a g e 3 9 1 o f M r A g ri z zi ’s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on one second.

M s M o k o n ya n e ,

w e re y o u st i l l w a n t i n g t o a t t e n d t o s o m e t h i n g ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, m y w a t e r C h a i r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Oh, shame.

S o rr y, I w a s n o t l o o ki n g .

S o rr y. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w e w i l l w a i t f o r yo u .
M S M O K O N YA N E : C a n y o u s w i t c h t h e t h i n g o ff ?
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u m u st i n d i c a t e i f y o u n e e d a s h o rt

a d j o u r n m e n t o r a n yt h i n g . O k a y. A l r i g h t .
Page 183 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E : J a , I a m f i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e f i n e .
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Yo u c a n t a ke w a t e r t o p u s h i t d o w n .
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o , I d o n o t h a v e t o d ri n k w a t e r.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o . . .
M S M O K O N YA N E : I t i s a ct u a l l y. . .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Oh, shame.
10

M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, I d o n o t h a v e t o g o t o t h e st o m a c h .
A D V N O T S H E S C : O h , o k a y. I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d yo u w a n t t o
h a ve t o t a k e w a t e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, M r N o t s h e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, h e r e M r A g ri z z i s e e m s t o b e

d e a l i n g w i t h t h e i s s u e o f t h e f o o d t h a t w a s. . . f o o d a n d l i q u o r
that was delivered.

O n p a ra g r a p h 1 4 . 1 . 5 p a g e 3 9 1 o f M r

A g ri z zi ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t .
H e s a y s:
20

“O n o n e e x a m p l e o f t h e d e m a n d f r o m M s M o k o n y a n e
i s a t t a c h e d h e r e t o a s A n n e x u r e F F. . . ”
N o w i f w e g o t o A n n e x u r e F F . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: It is one example of what?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

H e d e a l s. . . i t d e a l s a b o v e C h a i r w i t h t h e

i s s u e o f t h e p u r c h a se o f f o o d p ro d u ct s, m e a t , h a m p e r s,
Page 184 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
l i q u o r a n d o t h e r i t e m s a s s e t o u t i n h i s o ri g i n a l a ff i d a vi t .
N o w h e s a y s t h a t a s a n e xa m p l e o f t h e d e m a n d f ro m M s
M o k o n y a n e , h e r e f e r s u s t o a d o cu m e n t w h i c h i s m a r ke d F F
which is on page 397.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A r e yo u t h e r e M s M o k o n y a n e ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, I a m .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It seems to be an email from you to Mr

A g ri z zi o n t h e 1 3 t h o f A p ri l 2 0 1 2 .
10

D o yo u r e m e m b e r, w h a t i s

this email about?
M S M O K O N YA N E : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h C h a i rp e r s o n . A s i t
i s i n d i c a t e d h e r e , t h e r e sp o n s e s t h a t h a v e co m e a n d t h e
communication was between Ms Ndaba and the people that
w e re d e l i v e ri n g .
And all that they needed was to make sure that there is
i n t e r a ct i o n b e t w e e n t h o se p e o p l e a n d t h e p e o p l e i n . . . a n d a l l
I d i d , w h i c h I c a n n o t a l s o r e ca l l w h a t i t h a d t o d o w i t h . . . t h e
i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t i s h e r e i n r e f l e ct s t h a t I h a ve j u st f o r w a r d e d
i t . A n d I d i d n o t e v e n m a k e a c o m m e n t o n t h e m a t t e r.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Ms Nonhlanhla Ndaba?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

S h e i s a S o u t h A f r i ca n .

A member of

Oh,

o ka y.

Notshe,

Ye s.

N o , t h i s i s j u st w h a t I w a n t t o f i n d

P a rl i a m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms

( si c)

you

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Page 185 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
out.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. I j u st s a i d M s N o t s h e . [ l a u g h s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : M s M o k o n y a n e w i l l b e v e r y u n h a p p y.
M S M O K O N YA N E : N o t f o r h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st t o . . . [ l a u g h s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : S o w e a r e sq u a re . N o w w e a r e l e v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . [ l a u g h s] I w a n t e d t o s a y. Te l l u s m o re
about that Annexure FF Mr Notshe.

Mr A g ri z zi s a y s i t i s a n

example of a demand from Ms Mokonyane.
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s.

N o w, t h e o n l y s e e . . . t h e o n l y

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Is it a demand?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It does not... on the face of it, it does

n o t . . . t h e c o u rt d o e s n o t d e e m i t a d e m a n d b u t w h a t i t d o e s
C h a i r, a n d I w a n t e d t o a s k M s M o k o n y a n e t o p e r h a p s h e l p u s
w i t h t h i s.

It seems as if it is a communication between her

a n d M r A g r i z zi .

N o w I w a n t M s M o k o n y a n e t o c o n f i rm .

Did

y o u . . . w e r e y o u c o m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h M r A g ri z zi i n 2 0 1 2 l i ke i n
h e r e o n t h e 1 3 t h o f A p ri l 2 0 1 2 ?
20

M S M O K O N YA N E :

I h a ve f o r w a r d e d t h i s. . . t h i s m e s s a g e

was forwarded from my gadget at that time and all the
d e t a i l s t h e r e o f , I d o n o t e v e n k n o w a n y b a si s t h e r e o f . A n d I
a m d e f i n i t e l y su r e , i t h a d t o d o w i t h t h e b o d y o f w h a t i s o n
t h e e m a i l a n d t h e i n t e r e st o f t h o s e p e o p l e w h o w a n t e d t o
f u n d S o u t h A f ri c a n P a rt n e r s.
Page 186 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : B u t w h a t I a m s a yi n g i s, w h o w o u l d h a v e
f o r w a r d e d i t f ro m y o u r e m a i l a d d r e s s t o M r A g ri z zi , e x c e p t
you?
M S M O K O N YA N E : I a m s a yi n g C h a i rp e r s o n , s u r e l y I m i g h t . . .
I w o u l d h a ve s p o k e n t o G a vi n w h o h a v e m a y b e s a i d , “S e n d
t h i s t h i n g t o A n g e l o , M r A g r i z zi ” .

And that is all that

h a p p e n e d a n d t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e co n v e r s a t i o n a s y o u
c a n se e h e r e , e v e n o n t h e l e t t e r.
T h e r e w a s n o t a n y f u rt h e r co n t a c t a n d co m m u n i c a t i o n .
10

E v e n M r A g ri z zi h i m se l f c a n a t t e st , I h a ve n e v e r si n c e t h a t
i n st a n c e , t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n y o t h e r i n t e ra ct i o n w i t h m e
b e ca u s e I h a d n o t h i n g t o d o o r t o s h o w a n y b e n e f i t o r
i n t e r e st i n i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr N o t s h e , i s t h i s n o t t h e d o c u m e n t i n

re s p e ct o f w h i ch M r A g r i z zi sa y s. . . re f l e ct s p o s si b l e b u si n e s s
venture that he says Ms Mokonyane wanted BOSASA go into
o r i s t h a t a n o t h e r d o cu m e n t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It is another document.

This one is

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it is another one.
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h i s o n e i s j u st . . . h e s a y s M s M o k o n ya n e
i s. . . h e p u t s i t u p a s p r o o f o f d e m a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n i n a l l f a i r n e s s.

M s M o k o n ya n e

i n h e r a n d e v e n i n h e r r e p l y t h e r e , i t s a y s:
Page 187 of 214

“We l l , t h i s

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
d o cu m e n t , I a m n o t d e m a n d i n g a n y t h i n g ”.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

B u t w h a t I w a n t e d , t h e e xp l a n a t i o n n o w

she has given, is in order to find out whether by that time he
w a s c o n d u ct i n g , M r A g r i z zi a s s h o w n i n t h e e m a i l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . M o v e o n .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
the

N o w t h e i s s u e i s.

supplementary

a ff i d a v i t

page

On paragraph 15 of
392,

then

m i st e r

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

M S M O K O N YA N E : P a g e ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : P a g e 3 9 2 o f t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t .
T h e n , i n g e n e r a l t e r m s, h e s a y s t h a t y o u w e r e . . . t h e q u e st i o n
w a s, h e m u st e l a b o r a t e o n w h a t b a si s d i d B O S A S A c o n t i n u e
l o o ki n g

after

N o m vu l a

Mokonyane

and

he

needs

re q u i r e m e n t s a n d w i s h e s.
H e s a y s:
“ We l l , M s M o k o n y a n e w a s a v e r y. . . w a s a k n o w n a n d
a v e r y p o w e rf u l p e r s o n i n S o u t h A f ri c a .

She had

i n f l u e n c e d o v e r t h e f o r m e r p r e si d e n t o f S o u t h A f r i ca .
20

I t h i n k w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h i s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We h a v e .
A D V N O T S H E S C : I n yo u r a n s w e r, y o u . . . o n p a g e 8 5 o f y o u r
a n s w e r. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I

think

Ms

Mokonyane

already

g a ve

e vi d e n c e e a rl i e r t o s a y M r A g ri z z i g i v e s - I a m p u t t i n g t o m y
Page 188 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
o w n w o rd s – c re d i t t h a t s h e d o e s n o t d e s e r v e t o s a y s h e i s
s o i n f l u e n t i a l . A m I ri g h t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E : Ye s, y o u a r e ri g h t C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I t i s t h e cr e d i t t h a t I d o n o t e v e n n e e d

c o m i n g f ro m h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
re f e rr i n g t o .
10

S e c o n d l y, o n t h e v e r y i s s u e t h a t h e i s

I t i s a l s o a d e m o n st r a t i o n t h a t i t i s a b o u t , y o u

k n o w, e x p e ri e n c e a n d o p p o rt u n i s m i n t h e c h a r a ct e r o f M r
A g ri z zi .

T h e s e m a t t e r s o f t h e D e p a rt m e n t o f E n vi r o n m e n t a l

A ff a i r s d o n o t r e st w i t h t h e m i n i st e r.
A n d I f o u n d t h e s e p ro c e s s e s i n t h e d e p a rt m e n t b u t e v e n
d u ri n g m y t e n u r e , i t w a s a t t h e t i m e w h e n Mi n i st e r L i n d i w e
Z u l u w a s t h e a ct i n g m i n i st e r a n d t h e r e w a s n e v e r b e e n a n y
d e ci si o n

a ro u n d

t h i s p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r t h a t

had

do

with

N o m vu l a b u t i t w a s p u t t o m a k e t h e h e a d l i n e s a n d t o a g a i n
g o f o r m y c h a ra ct e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . M r N o t sh e .
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d t h e n , o n p a g e . . . m i st e r . . . a n d t h e n

M r A g ri z zi d e a l s w i t h t h e i s s u e o n p a g e 8 6 o f t h e m a i n
b u n d l e , w h e r e h e s a y s t h a t I h a ve . . . o n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 15?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Paragraph five zero Chair on page 086.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e st i l l o n t h e s a m e b u n d l e ?
Page 189 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
ADV NOTSHE SC: On the same bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
A D V N O T S H E S C : P a g e z e ro e i g h t si x. 0 8 6 . Yo u r p a g e 8 6 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, I think forget about zero.

Ju s t 8 6 s o

t h a t w e a re c o n si s t e n t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 8 6 . O k a y. Ye s, c o n t i n u e .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Where he says on paragraph 15:
“I h a v e n o kn o w l e d g e o f t h e S I U I n v e st i g a t i o n i n t o
10

N o m vu l a P a u l a M o k o n y a n e ’s d e p a rt m e n t .

Safe for

t h e a b o v e , I d e n y t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h i s p a ra g r a p h .

I

confirm that I was personally present with the late
G a vi n

Wa t so n

and

kn e w

Willem

when

the

SIU

I n v e st i g a t i o n a s w e l l a s p ro s e c u t i o n i n t h e st a t e w a s
d i s c u s s e d b y N o m v u l a P a u l a M o k o n y a n e w i t h u s. . . ”
T h a t i s h i s re s p o n s e .

He says he was there and he

discussed this with you.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

C h a i r, a s I h a v e st a t e d p re vi o u sl y.

h a ve n o su c h a u t h o ri t y.
20

I h a ve n e v e r b e e n p a r t o f t h e

C ri m i n a l J u st i c e S y st e m C l u st e r.
meeting

with

any

of

I

those

I h a v e n e ve r b e e n i n a n y
that

are

re s p o n si b l e

for

i n v e st i g a t i o n s, i n c l u d i n g i n t h e S I U .
A n d I st i l l w a n t t o a ff i r m t h a t h e i s a ct u a l l y l yi n g . I h a v e
n o s u ch i n f l u e n c e t o t h e e xt e n t t h a t M r A g ri z zi w a n t s t o
p o rt r a y a b o u t m e .
Page 190 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o w, i n yo u r a ff i d a vi t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a y s o m e w h e r e . . . I a m s o rr y. H e s a y s
s o m e w h e re y o u h a d d i r e ct a c ce s s t o f o r m e r P r e si d e n t , J a co b
Z u m a . W h a t d o y o u sa y a b o u t t h a t ?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Yo u k n o w, I e v e n h a d d i re ct a c c e s s t o

P r e si d e n t M a n d e l a .

T h e r e i s a p i ct u r e i n t h e h o u s e , C h a i r

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . Ye s.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
10

. . . o f u s c o m i n g f r o m P o l o k w a n e , p o st

the National Conference in Polokwane.

Myself and other

c o m r a d e s w e r e a s si g n e d a re s p o n si b i l i t y.
We w e n t t h r o u g h t h e r e si d e n ce o f P r e si d e n t N e l s o n
M a n d e l a t o g o a n d p re p a re a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e ME C
c o m e s a n d p r e s e n t o u r s e l v e s t o t h e p r e si d e n t a s i t w a s a
d e ci si o n o f t h e n e w l y e l e ct e d M E C .
C h a i r, I h a v e a l s o h a d c o n t a ct a n d j u st l i ke a n y o t h e r
A f ri c a n N a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s m e m b e r a n d a l e a d e r i n t h a t
re g a r d , b e e n a b l e t o a l s o i n t e ra ct w i t h P r e si d e n t T h a b o
M b e ki ’s o ff i c e o n m a n y i s su e s, i n cl u d i n g i s su e s t h a t a r e
20

re l a t e d

to

the

youth

p r o g ra m m e s ,

the

AIDS

a w a re n e s s

p r o g r a m m e s, t h e i s s u e s a r o u n d h o u si n g a n d s o o n a n d s o
f o rt h , d u ri n g h i s t e n u r e .
A n d h e n c e I a m s a yi n g , I h a v e a l s o b e e n vi ct i m i se d
a s a T h a b o M b e k i . . . y o u k n o w, a p r o j e ct t h a t w a s c a l l e d a
p r o j e ct , t h e 1 9 9 6 C l a s s P r o j e ct . T h a t i s m e b e c a u s e o f h o w
Page 191 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
I always carry myself.

I remain loyal to the organisation, I

remain loyal to the leaders of the organisation, the same
with

President

Thabo

Mbeki,

the

same

with

Kgalema

Motlanthe within his short stint as the President. So I have
done that.
C h a i r, s a m e w i t h P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a , a n d a s I
have said, I had preferred Comrade Jacob Zuma in line
with the processes of the African National Congress, I have
supported President Jacob Zuma as I have supported even
10

the current President who is now under attack.

Yo u c a n

see how the media is now going for him, because I do
b e l i e v e i n t e r n a l p a r t y d e m o c r a c y.
like that.

So the access has been

B u t , y o u k n o w, f o r t h e r e c o r d , I h a v e n e v e r b e e n

to any of those national events that President Zuma will
host in Nkandla and all those things, I would relate with
President Jacob Zuma and even call him ubaba in the same
spirit as any other person would have done it.

I think Mr

Agrizzi is taking chances and maybe it is because this is
all about trying to pin me down as somebody who had an
20

influence over President Jacob Zuma to an extent that I did
not have.
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , M r N o t s h e ?
A n d a s I a m s a y i n g , C h a i r, w i t h y o u r

p e r m i s s i o n , a s w e s p e a k n o w, y o u k n o w, I w o u l d c a l l
officials of the ANC because of the responsibility I have
Page 192 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
now and ask the Secretary General to say come, we are
meeting with Province X, join us on Zoom.
that.
period

They will do

The President himself – I have been during this
of

lockdown

on

behalf

of

the ANC’s organising

committee gone all out to get our President to come in and
hear from our own members of the ANC in the various
provinces about the state of organisation and

what is

happening under lockdown during this particular pandemic
and we communicate, communicate even when there is
10

u r g e n c y.

I would even send a message directly to him

knowing where I stood in terms of the preferences.

Surely

somebody will see me as a traitor but it is because of who
I am and how I understand the workings of the ANC and
therefore, I take serious exception but I will continue to
respect President Zuma as I have respected President
Thabo Mbeki, President Motlanthe and President Nelson
Mandela.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . M r N o t s h e ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

And then on the same page of the

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a f f i d a v i t – I a m s o r r y, C h a i r, o n 3 9 2 , j u s t a
o n e l i n e r.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

3..?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

3 9 2 , C h a i r.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Are you there?
Page 193 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

O k a y. P a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 3 h e s a y s :

“On

diverse

Mokonyane

occasions

and

Wa t s o n

a

discussion

pertained

with

finalising

the

c l o s u r e o f t h e S I U m a t t e r, e v e n t o t h a t e x t e n t w h e r e
a meeting was arranged with Anwar Dramat, the
then National Head of the Hawks. This was in order
to

get

them

to

return

the

BOSASA

docket

to

Advocate Nomgcobo Jiba so that she could arrange
10

for the matter not to be proceeded with.”
Now you respond to that on page 37.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

P a r a g r a p h 5 4 . Yo u s a y t h e c o n t e n t s o f

this paragraph are denied.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , I d o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I have never – you say:

“I have not been a party to any arrangement with
Anwar Dramat or Adv Jiba who are not known to
me.”
20

CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I think she wanted to make…
Ye s .
Ms Mokonyane?
Insofar as what Mr Agrizzi is saying

about my influence and arrangements with both Advocate
Jiba and Anwar Dramat, that is the reason why I am saying
Page 194 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
I d o n o t k n o w, I d o n o t r e l a t e t o t h e m o n t h o s e b a s e s .

I

know them at that level that they were responsible in that
space but I have never had this kind of a relationship in
terms of their businesses and responsibilities. It is a damn
lie.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

He responds to your answer at page

87.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .
We need to look for it because you could

just – we know where Ms Mokonyane stands.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
Yo u c a n j u s t r e a d t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t .
Ye s . N o , I j u s t w a n t e d t o – s o t h a t s h e

can get to it as well, then I will read.

Then he says – this

is now Mr Agrizzi. He says:
“I deny allegations of this paragraph.

I state at the

material time Mr Dramat was the head of the Hawks
and Advocate Jiba was in a senior position as the
Director of Public Prosecutions and at a later stage
20

became the Acting Head.

It is indeed surprising

that Nomvula Paula Mokonyane would deny in the
s e n s e t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e n o t k n o w n t o h e r. ”
N o w, M s M o k o n y a n e , y o u n e v e r h a d c o n t a c t s w i t h a n y o f
these people?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I have never had contacts with any of
Page 195 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
these people. I have never even had any influence on them
nor even sitting in any meeting with them.

I have no

relationship and hence on the basis of what is alleged I am
saying I do know but I know them as individuals out there
doing their job and myself doing my job somewhere else.
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

And

never

had

a

telephone

conversation or cell phone conversation with them?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
conversation
10

with

No, I have never had any telephone
Anwar

Dramat

nor

have

I

had

any

telephone conversations with Nomgcobo Jiba.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Nomgcobo?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Nomgcobo Jiba.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Nomgcobo Jiba.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

J a , t h a t i s t h e o n l y t i m e t h a t I c a n s a y.

The only other time when you have the people out there
being paraded and stuff you will know of them and you will
celebrate them, Chairperson, you will celebrate them as
women leaders and I think, amongst other things, it is a
game, the onslaught that I said in my statement, about
20

vilifying women and I am one of those people who will
always stand by women and support them when they are
under attack.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr Notshe?
And your support was merely limited to

moral support, not to call them and support them in two
Page 196 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
phone calls?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No, we would actually support them

both in the organisation.
League.

I b e l o n g t o t h e A N C W o m e n ’s

I am a gender activist, I am a feminist and would

f o r e v e r, j u s t l i k e i t h a p p e n e d w i t h R i a h P h i y e g a , j u s t a s i t
has

happened

with

Bathabile

Dlamini,

just

as

it

has

happened with Nkosazana, we will always have to have
that sister support.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

C h a i r, j u s t b e a r w i t h m e ? C h a i r, m a y I

j u s t a p p r o a c h … ? C h a i r, w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a n y o t h e r t h i n g o f
importance we need to raise, from our side I think that is
all I need to deal with the witness to help the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t .

So I just want to go

back to one point namely that Ms Mokonyane you say that
to the extent that on your version Mr Agrizzi decided to
falsely accuse of all the things that he has accused you of,
you do not know exactly why he is doing that but you
believe there is hatred involved, is that right?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

There is hatred involved.
Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

And he has also played into the

p o l i t i c a l g a l l e r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Because if you look at the timing,

C h a i r, y o u w i l l s e e t h a t i t w a s a t a t i m e w h e n t h e r e w e r e
Page 197 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
tensions within the ANC, healthy tensions in the movement
because

it

is

not

the

first

time

that

there

has

been

differences in terms of preferential leaders.
He has also played into what everybody has done
about President Jacob Zuma that anyone who can say I
support Jacob Zuma is actually corrupt.
But

he

also

has

his

own

issues

to

respond

to

because I do not even know the investigations of the SIU
w i t h B O S A S A a n d I r e a l l y a m q u i t e – v e r y, v e r y c o n c e r n e d
10

about how he has actually jumped into this Commission,
come in and out, cleared things and everything.

I so wish

that my – my assumptions and what I have come to believe
are actually wrong.
First, he has gone out to – on record to be known
as a racist.
S e c o n d l y, h e h a s g o n e o u t h i m s e l f t o b e t h e o n e
who was frustrated about me not helping them.

So surely

now he is punishing me because his mission and what he
assumed
20

that

I

have

the

capacity

T h i r d l y,

I

think

Mr Agrizzi

to

do,

was

never

realised.
also

wants

to

make

everybody believe that he is a holy cow and everybody who
was

related

with

BOSASA

and

anyone

who

has

been

associated with President Jacob Zuma or anyone who has
gone out to support the African National Congress is fine
Page 198 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
except for BOSASA.

And yet, as I am saying, we have

state owned entities who have big companies like Group 5
that has now gone under liquidation who have supported
the ANC.
and

Yo u h a v e s e e n p i c t u r e s o f t h e R u p e r t s w i n i n g

dining

with

Presidents

of

the

African

National

Congress, with Madiba, with President Thabo Mbeki and so
on and so forth and because all these things were above
board, you know of how the Guptas had funded the DA and
Helen Zille wrote and accepted that contribution and Mr
10

A g r i z z i w a n t t o m a k e t h i s a m o n s t e r.
It is only now that there is a Bill in parliament,
Chairperson, that speaks about funding of political parties.
There has never been a rule that says funding of political
parties must not happen and so on.
So all I can say [African language], but mostly
i m p o r t a n t l y, i t i s a b o u t h i m p u r s u i n g a n a g e n d a t h a t I t h i n k
it is better known by himself.

I r e a l l y c a n n o t t e l l , C h a i r.

And I so wish one day I would come to understand but I
remain with the view that I hold.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Well, you said some words in isiZulu just

n o w, y o u w a n t t o t r y a n d p u t t h e m i n E n g l i s h f o r t h e r e c o r d .
Yo u s a i d i n z o n d o a n d y o u m e n t i o n e d …
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , C h a i r, I t h i n k w h e n y o u b e c o m e ,

when you are emotional and hurt you…
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r e v e r t t o y o u r l a n g u a g e .
Page 199 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u d o .
Ja, ja, ja.

M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

And this …[intervenes]
But for the record, ja.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

F o r t h e r e c o r d , C h a i r, i t i s h a t r e d , i t i s

m i s o g y n y, i t i s r a c i s m , i t i s c h a r a c t e r a s s a s s i n a t i o n a n d i t
is opportunism that goes with the character in A grizzi’s
p e r s o n a l i t y.

He has flirted with all political parties, he has

flirted with the media, he has protected himself as an
10

e x t e n s i o n o f t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y o n l y t o f i n d t h a t h e i s t h e
e x t r e m e o p p o s i t e o f t h e Wa t s o n f a m i l y.
What was happening in BOSASA, like what was
happening in Group 5, like what was happening in other big
companies that have come out to support the ANC, I know
nothing about that.

If there has to be a day for them to

come and account, so be it.

And I think Mr Agrizzi must

just appreciate that. I am deeply concerned.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Now I think we got to a point with

regard to jobs that were done in your residence, we got to
20

a point where, as I understood the position, from your side
there was no denial that some jobs were done.

The denial

w a s y o u d i d n o t g i v e i n s t r u c t i o n s , o n e . Tw o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Not to my knowledge.
H’m?
Not to my knowledge.
Page 200 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w e l l y o u d o n o t m e a n y o u d o n o t

remember whether you gave instructions of not?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No, I have never given instructions.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, you have never given instructions,

yes.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Never gave.
Yo u n e v e r g a v e i n s t r u c t i o n s , t h a t i s o n e .

Tw o , w i t h r e g a r d t o y o u r l a t e h u s b a n d , a m I r i g h t t o s a y w e
ended
10

on

a

point

where

you

said

if

he

had

made

arrangements for these – this company of Mr van Biljon
which is attached to BOSASA in terms of arrangements.

If

he had made arrangements, he would have shared that
with you.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n .
Is that right?

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

So the fact that he never shared that

with you points to him not having made any arrangement.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
20

And his assertions also with that

Whatsapp …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

I n r e s p o n s e t o t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s a r t i c l e ?
Ye s , y e s , C h a i r p e r s o n .
So – but what you also concede, I think,

is that the security personnel at the gate would not open or
allow anybody in unless they knew that the person was
Page 201 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
authorised to come in.
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n . Ye s , C h a i r.
Ja. It seems to me that we – that leaves

with a situation where Mr van Biljon’s company and Mr
Richard le Roux and Charl le Roux may have come and
done some work in circumstances where it is not clear who
authorised that. Is that your impression as well?
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

And

who

instructed

them

from

…[intervenes]
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Who instructed them to …[intervenes]

M S M O K O N YA N E :

F r o m t h e M o k o n y a n e f a m i l y, y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y, a l r i g h t .

Mr Notshe, I

think there is one part which I seem to remember you did
not

touch

on

and

I

do

not

know

whether

that

was

deliberate, Ms Dube’s affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC: ...[Indistinct – microphone off]
CHAIRPERSON:

No

I

think

you

must

cover

it,

Ms

Mokonyane must know that there is somebody else who
seems to corroborate the story of deliveries so that she
20

can deal with it, other than Agrizzi.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s M s M o k o n y a n e g o t o d i v i d e r 7 .

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s C h a i r.

A D V N O T S H E S C : Yo u s e e t h e a f f i d a v i t o f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Where?
C h a i r i t i s o n p a g e 11 9 .
Page 202 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ve got it.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now this is the affidavit of Mrs

Bongiwe Eves Dube.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Did you say Mr Notshe, did you say Mr?
Mrs.
Miss?
Mrs, I said Mrs Bongiwe.
O h , o k a y.

Ja, I thought you repeated

...[intervenes]
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

No, no I got a very stern – I got a very

stern look from Ms Mokonyane never to repeat such a
mistake.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Well maybe I can quickly deal with this.
Ye s .
Ms Bongiwe Dube and her other name

Ms Mokonyane is Eves, she says that she was previously
employed as a unit leader which she says is essentially
manager in the kitchens at BOSASA and her work included
oversight of staff, working out the specifications for diets,
20

the preparation of food with the chefs and ordering and
receiving of stock and she sets out her movements within
BOSASA and she says she ultimately worked at the head
office of BOSAS A and was running the kitchen and she
says this was for staff, guest meetings and people who
attended training and they provided catering.
Page 203 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
She says Mr Alistair Esau was in charge at head
office and she was second-in-charge.

She took over from

Katherine Matabate when she moved to Lindela.

She says

at 5.1 with regards to deliveries of food I would receive
i n s t r u c t i o n s f r o m e i t h e r P a p a L e s h a b a n e o r A l i s t a i r.

It is

my understanding that in the instances where Alistair gave
me instructions, he would have received instructions from
someone higher up at BOSASA.
5.1
10

Christmas.

December

food

She says over Christmas time in
would

be

delivered

to

Nomvula

Mokonyane, I know this as in the first December I
was at head office.

In 2016 I was on my way to

fetch an order from a butchery called Food Boys in
Strydom

Park

when

one

of

the

butchery

staff

p h o n e d m e a n d a s k e d m e a b o u t a s p e c i f i c o r d e r.
They asked me if I knew about it as it was normally
d e a l t w i t h b y K a t h e r i n e e v e r y D e c e m b e r. T h e s t a f f I
dealt with at the butchery were Precious, Happy and
Laura ...”
20

A n d s h e g i v e s h e r c e l l n u m b e r, s h e s a y s F o o d B o y s , s h e
says I phoned Katherine and asked her about the order
whereupon she said I must not deal with the order as that
was for Nomvula Mokonyane and she would deal with it.

It

was a large order of meat, approximately R17 000 worth
and the butchery staff informed me that the order was
Page 204 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
already in place.

The same occurred the following year in

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 a s t h i s w a s a s t a n d i n g o r d e r.

Thomas was

the driver at BOSASA at the time and he would have made
the deliveries, I did not deal with the delivery of any drinks
and alcohol to Nomvula Mokonyane.
So I wanted you to know that there is somebody
else other than Agrizzi who has deposed to an affidavit
who has something to say about you so that you can
comment, you might say you stand by what you have said
10

...[intervenes]
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson I stand by what I have

s a i d a n d I w o u l d w i s h e d , w i t h y o u r p e r m i s s i o n C h a i r, t h a t
the Chair would have then gone to page 122.
CHAIRPERSON:

Let’s go there, let’s go there, if you want

to read you can read.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

The lady says, who I have never met,

who also confirms that there is nowhere where she says
...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Mmm,

ja,

she

does

not

say

she

delivered.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

And I have really indicated what all

t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e a b o u t a n d w h a t t h e y w e r e m e a n t f o r.
She then goes on, on page 122 Chairperson where she
says I came to BOSASA through Mr Angelo Agrizzi and in
2018

it

was

common

knowledge

Page 205 of 214

that

B O S A S A’ s

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
management wanted to get rid of people of relating to Mr
Agrizzi.

This

was

between them.

because

there

had

been

a

fallout

I think this is a mouthful, I just want to

leave it there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

M S M O K O N YA N E :
that statement.

A n d a c t u a l l y, g o f u r t h e r a n d c o m p l e t e

She then goes further to say Alistair and

other staff linked to Mr Agrizzi were removed by early
2018.
10

In this period one of the staff said that I was

receiving money from one of the guests and they had seen
me

on

the

CCTV

camera.

I

informed

B O S A S A’ s

management that I had received the money from Avon
Products, I was selling and the person was delivering the
money to me.
I was however then dismissed for failing to declare
my Avon businesses, which I did in my spare time.
CHAIRPERSON:
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s .
I j u s t w a n t t o l e a v e i t t h e r e C h a i r, b u t

again this is the person who says she came through Mr
20

Agrizzi but I really want the Commission to also underline
what she is saying, that all these things happened because
there was a fallout amongst them.
Some of us are becoming casualties of that fallout
and I wish I can be able to corroborate what was the
nature of the fallout and to what extent has it led to this
Page 206 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
Commission being given all this time to now listen to all
these insinuations and allegations including peddling of
lies.
T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

Mr Notshe you might have

something that arises from this?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No, no I do not have. I do not have.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

Then we are done, there

has not been any indication from the – Ms Mokonyane’s
10

legal team that they would like to re-examine or anything?
Ye s , o k a y, t h a t ’ s f i n e y e s .

O h , o k a y, j u s t s w i t c h o n y o u r

mic then.
O k a y, y o u r c o u n s e l w i l l r e - e x a m i n e , s o h e w i l l p u t
some questions to you, he says he will be five minutes,
then you can just – he does so in order to just clarify
certain things that he wishes to be clarified.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:
indebted to you.
the
20

document

Thank you Mr Chairperson, I am

Ms Mokonyane would you please look at
that

is

Mr

Agrizzi’s

response

to

your

statement, you will find it at page 64, it is his response
dated the 18th of November 2019.

When was the first time

that you saw this document?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

This is the one that is dated 2019

November?
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

Ye s .
Page 207 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I saw this document after it was

a l r e a d y i n t h e n e w s p a p e r.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

This document here, where I want

to put to you, perhaps you can clarify it with the leave of
the Chairperson, this was only given to us over this last
weekend.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

I t w a s g i v e n t o u s t h i s S u n d a y, w e

worked on it Chairperson overnight and hence I am saying
this we learnt of the story on the newspapers but we got
10

hold of this document, this past weekend.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

But you wanted to proceed with

this matter today?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Ye s , I w a n t e d t o p r o c e e d w i t h t h e

m a t t e r t o d a y.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

Now at page 70 of that document,

and this is an issue that arose for the first time on the
weekend, at paragraph 20.4 there is an issue that Mr
Agrizzi says that I cannot cross-examine him because he
dealt with me personally on numerous occasions together
20

with attorney Brian Biba.

Is it still your wish for me to

cross-examine him?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson I will still wish that my

legal representatives do actually cross-examine Mr Agrizzi
and for now I don’t even know what is the conflict that he
is referring to or his reservation.
Page 208 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

Well maybe I should deal with that

because at some stage this – today I would deal with that.
The – I saw that in your affidavit, in Ms Mokonyane’s
affidavit there is a line som ewhere saying she would like to
cross-examine or to have her legal team cross-examine Mr
Agrizzi, but she has not – that has not been dealt with as
an application for leave to cross-examine simply because
the rules make provision for what to do if you want to apply
10

for leave to cross-examine and that didn’t come in that
w a y.

I think the affidavit cam e because we requested Ms

Mokonyane to file an affidavit.

I think the legal team, her

legal team if they wish to pursue an application for leave to
cross-examine may be should just reflect on the rule and
then take it from there.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

As you please Mr Chairperson.

Ye s ,

so

from

–

certainly

from

the

Chairperson’s side it wasn’t taken as an application for
leave to cross-examine but the legal team of – her legal
20

team can reflect on that and take it from there.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

And just two remaining issues,

thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

UNKNOWN COUNSEL:
Madam,

at

paragraph

Then you will see at page 73
27.1

Mr

Page 209 of 214

Agrizzi

states

here

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
unequivocally that the meat was purchased from Zeeman’s
F o o d s , G r e e n h i l l s B u t c h e r y, R a n d f o n t e i n , a n d y o u h a v e j u s t
been referred to Ms Dube’s statement where she says the
food came from Food Boys in Strydom Park, do you know
either of these companies?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

No Chairperson I don’t know either of

the two.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

Then my final issue Madam is you

have touched on it but you haven’t clarified it in succinct
10

terms and I would like to be more specific about this if you
can.

Yo u h a v e t w o s o n s t h a t a r e r e f e r r e d i n t e r c h a n g e a b l y

to by Mr Agrizzi and he seems to have confused the two.
He specifically states that your one son, whom he doesn’t
name, had a drug problem and went to Clanwilliam and he
i m p l i e s t h a t t h a t i s t h e s o n t h a t t h e n p a s s e d a w a y.

Is that

the case, is there any merits in that or not?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson it is not the truth, my son

who had gone to Clanwilliam and got rehabilitated from
substance abuse is still alive, he is trying his best to get
20

out of it, and therefore Mr Agrizzi is not telling the truth.
My son who has passed on had nothing to do with the
drugs, in fact he had challenges of being persecuted by the
media and being chased around, just for him being an
ordinary child and now being labelled as Nomvula’s son, so
that

is

the

difference,

and

I

really

Page 210 of 214

think

that

the

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
interchangeable

use

of

the

two

indicates

that

he

was

actually clutching on all straws because Africa Mokonyane
is alive and may he live long.

Retlabusa is now in his

grave, he has been buried, he passed on in November
2010 and there was a lot that surrounded what the media
was saying about him, but again in my culture and in the
manner that I respect bereavement we opted never to
respond to the media and until today we have refused to
take such issues into the public space, and hence I do
10

believe that he is heaving ulterior motives.

He does not

even know the people he is talking about.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

Then finally madam your son who

passed away full name was?
M S M O K O N YA N E :

It is Retlabusa Mohaho Mokonyane.

UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

And your son who is still alive and

who seems to have confused with, that son’s full name is?
MS

M O K O N YA N E :

My

first

born

is

Africa

Peter

Mokonyane.
UNKNOWN COUNSEL:
20

Those were the only issues Mr

Chairperson, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

No thank you.

I think there is just one

question that I wanted to raise and you may have dealt
with it but I want to be sure about it.

With regard to your

son who went to, is it Clanwilliam, Mr Agrizzi said BOSASA
paid or whatever expenses for him being accommodated
Page 211 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
there and he said BOSASA made all the arrangements for
him to be accommodated there.

I think in your affidavit

you have denied that but I just want to be sure.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

Chairperson my son was part of a

group of young people who were picked in the streets of
this country and taken into rehabilitation.

He had to be

removed even here because he was chased by the drug
lords and trying

to push him and he then out

of the

processes from here in Krugersdorp they then arranged
10

that they would rather take him to a place that is away
from where the drug lords are and those that wanted to
continue using him, and that is how Africa ended up in
Clanwilliam.
was

It was part of that social programme that I

talking

about

where

Orlando

Pirates,

various

businesses against crime, various other organisations were
part of in taking our kids away from the programmes, and
he actually presented himself. I actually picked up other
kids from the streets, from their homes with the consent of
their parents and some who were above the age of 18 who
20

volunteered to go to BOSASA.
CHAIRPERSON:

So would the position be that BOSASA

may or may not have paid but that was not at your request
if they did pay?
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

No it was not at my request.
Ye s .
Page 212 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
M S M O K O N YA N E :
CHAIRPERSON:

It was their own ...[intervenes]
Initiative.

M S M O K O N YA N E :

Initiative like I am saying Chair they

have picked up so many kids.,
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

UNKNOWN COUNSEL:

Mr Chairperson just for the record

the reference to that is at page 84, that is why it hasn’t
b e e n d e a l t w i t h p r e v i o u s l y, w e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h i s d o c u m e n t
before.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay no thank you.

UNKNOWN COUNSEL
CHAIRPERSON:

Just for the record.

Okay thank you.

Mr Notshe you are

done?
A D V N O T S H E S C : I a m d o n e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

The only thing is Ms Mokonyane had

promised to give us details of people in government who
can be contacted about ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

l a w y e r s , a f t e r, j a .

Ja,

you

can

get

that

through

her

Ms Mokonyane we are done, thank you

very much for coming to give evidence in the Commission
and that we have also stayed beyond four o’clock in order
to finish.
Thank you very much, we appreciate it.
M S M O K O N YA N E :

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a i r.
Page 213 of 214

20 JULY 2020 – DAY 235
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, we are going to adjourn then and

tomorrow we will resume at normal time, ten o’clock but we
are done with the evidence of Ms Mokonyane.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 2 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0

10

Page 214 of 214