C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 2 9 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 D AY 1 8 4 20 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 9 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e w e r e a d y ? ADV HOFMEYR: We are indeed C h a ir p e r s o n . We are today c o m m e n c i n g a w e e k o f e v id e n c e in r e l a t io n t o t h e N e w A g e a s y o u in d i c a t e d a t th e c o n c l u s i o n o f y e s te r d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r w it h y o u r l e a v e I p r o p o s e to d o a f e w t h i n g s i n 10 in tr o d u c t i o n t h is m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: B e f o r e I h a n d o v e r t o m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d M r M b ik i w a w h o w i ll b e p r e s e n t in g t h e e v id e n c e o f th e fir s t w i tn e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: C h a ir t h o s e m a t te r s a r e – a r e r e a l ly t o l o c a t e th e e v i d e n c e o f th is w e e k in t h e p r e v io u s e v id e n c e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t h a s b e e n r e c e i v e d b y th e c o m m i s s io n . It is t h e n t o d e a l w i th c e r t a i n p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t s th a t n e e d t o b e a d d r e s s e d 20 b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e t h e e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n in c o n c l u s i o n to h i g h l ig h t s o m e o f t h e k e y q u e s t i o n s th a t w e s u b m it a r e g o in g t o n a v ig a t e t h e e v i d e n c e i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h is w e e k . So if I may with your leave do that? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e d o t h a t . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u s o m u c h . C h a ir t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r Page 2 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w a s la u n c h e d t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 0 a n d w e h a v e r e c e iv e d e v id e n c e o n t h a t a lr e a d y in t h e c o m m is s i o n . A n d a s a n e w n e w s p a p e r o n th e m a r k e t it w a s l o o k i n g fo r s u b s c r i p ti o n s a n d a d v e r t is in g s p e n d . I t a ls o e n t e r e d i n t o a n a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h t h e S A B C t o c o n d u c t w h a t b e c a m e a s k n o w n a s b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s ts w h ic h w o u l d t h e n b e b r o a d c a s t o n S A B C 2 o n t h e M o r n i n g L i v e s h o w. And you have also h e a r d e v i d e n c e a b o u t th a t a r r a n g e m e n t in t h e S A B C e v i d e n c e . T h e b a c k d r o p to t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll h e a r t o d a y a ls o in c l u d e s t h e e v id e n c e o f M r M a s e k o w h o y o u w i ll r e c a ll r i g h t a t t h e 10 b e g in n i n g o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s h e a r in g s g a v e e v i d e n c e th a t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 0 h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y M r A t u l G u p ta a s k e d fo r a m e e ti n g a n d o n t h e d a y o f t h e s c h e d u l e d m e e ti n g M r M a s e k o ’s e v id e n c e w a s t h a t h e w a s c o n ta c t e d b y t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t M r Z u m a w h o i n d ic a t e d t o h i m t h a t th e G u p ta ’s w a n t e d t o m e e t w i t h h i m a n d th a t t h e y n e e d e d h e l p a n d t h a t h e s h o u l d a s s is t th e m . M r M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t h e a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e t in g a n d d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g h e w a s in f o r m e d b y M r G u p t a t h a t t h e G u p t a ’s w a n t e d t h e R 6 0 0 m i ll i o n a d v e r t is in g s p e n d o f G C I S t h e G o v e r n m e n t C o m m u n i c a t io n a n d I n f o r m a ti o n S e r v ic e t o b e d ir e c t e d to t h e N e w A g e 20 a n d h e w a s f u r th e r to ld a t a l a te r m e e ti n g t h a t i f h e w a s n o t t o o b l i g e h e c o u l d b e d e a l t w it h . M r M a s e k o ’s e v id e n c e w a s th a t h e r e f u s e d t h e in s tr u c ti o n a n d t h a t i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 h e w a s t r a n s f e r r e d o u t o f G C I S . W e h a v e a l s o h e a r d e v id e n c e i n t h e c o m m is s i o n C h a ir o f M r G il lil a n d . H e w a s o n e o f t h e e a r ly w i t n e s s e s w h o is a n e m p l o y e e o f Page 3 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. A n d w h a t h e h a d d o n e f o r th e c o m m i s s io n w a s tr a c k e d a ll o f t h e p a y m e n ts t h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h e B A S S s y s t e m w h ic h is t h e r e p o s i t o r y o f N a t io n a l a n d Pr o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t s p e n d w i t h i n t h e c o u n tr y. A n d h e tr a c k e d f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n p a y m e n t s b y N a ti o n a l a n d P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n ts t o t h e T N A . Th e u p s h o t o f th a t e v i d e n c e j u s t t o r e m in d o u r s e lv e s w a s t h a t b e t w e e n 2 0 11 a n d 2 0 1 8 th e r e h a d b e e n a t o t a l o f R 2 4 8 m i ll io n s p e n t b y N a ti o n a l a n d P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t s w i t h the TNA. A n d o f t h a t R 2 4 8 m i lli o n R 9 4 m il li o n w a s p a i d b y N a t io n a l 10 G o v e r n m e n t v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts w i th in N a t io n a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e r e m a in d e r w a s p a i d b y t h e P r o v i n c e s . A n d t h e h i g h e s t r a n k in g s p e n d a m o n g s t t h e P r o v i n c e s w e r e a s f o l lo w s : T h e F r e e S t a t e s p e n t o v e r th a t p e r i o d R 7 5 m i ll io n w i t h th e T N A . K w a Z u l u N a t a l s p e n t R 2 4 m i ll io n a n d t h e N o r t h W e s t s p e n t R 2 2 m il li o n . S o t h a t w a s a c a p tu r i n g o f th e e x t e n t o f t h e s p e n d w i t h i n N a t io n a l a n d Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t w it h t h e T N A o v e r th e p e r i o d 2 0 1 1 to 2018. C h a ir t h e c o m m i s s io n h a s a ls o h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r 20 M a n y e . N o w M r M a n y e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s m o v e d i n to G C I S a f t e r M r M a s e k o w a s tr a n s fe r r e d o u t t o D P S A . A n d Mr M a n y e ’s e v i d e n c e w a s t o s u p p o r t t h e G C I S s p e n d w it h th e T N A . A n d y o u w i ll r e c a l l C h a ir t h a t h e d i d s o o n a f e w g r o u n d s . A m o n g s t t h e m w e r e th e fo ll o w i n g : H e i n d ic a t e d th a t t h e p o s i ti v e e d i to r i a l s t a n c e o f th e TN A w a s Page 4 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s a t t r a c t iv e fo r g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r tis in g s p e n d . H e a ls o lis t e d th e p r o v in c i a l r e a c h o f t h e T N A a s b e i n g a p a r t ic u l a r a s p e c t o f w h a t w o u l d j u s t if y s p e n d w i t h th e T N A . A n d t h e n h e a ls o in d ic a te d t h a t i t w a s n o t t h e m o s t e x p e n s iv e o f t h e n e w s p a p e r s in w h ic h a d v e r t is e m e n t s c o u l d b e p l a c e d . A n d o ff t h e b a c k o f t h a t h is e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s io n w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s ju s t i fic a ti o n i n s p e n d i n g w i th t h e T N A . C h a ir Te r m o f R e f e r e n c e 1 .6 o f t h is C o m m i s s io n ’s Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e r e q u ir e s t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o d e t e r m i n e a m o n g s t o t h e r th i n g s 10 w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e a n y ir r e g u l a r i t ie s , u n d u e e n r i c h m e n t , c o r r u p ti o n o r u n d u e i n fl u e n c e in t h e a w a r d i n g o f c o n tr a c ts a n d a d v e r ti s i n g s p e n d w i t h the New Age. It i s a s p e c i fi c Te r m o f R e f e r e n c e a n d i t is fo r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t t h e r e h a v e b e e n fu r t h e r d e t a i l e d i n v e s ti g a t i o n s u n d e r ta k e n in r e l a ti o n t o T N A . T h e f o c u s o f t h is w e e k s ’ e v i d e n c e i s g o in g t o b e t o m o v e t o th e s t a te o w n e d e n te r p r is e s t h e ms e lv e s a n d t o l o o k a t t h e e x t e n t to w h ic h t h e y c o n tr a c te d w it h T N A a n d t h e e x t e n t o f t h e ir s p e n d o n v a r io u s a s p e c ts of the T N A o ffe r i n g which included a d v e r ti s i n g in the n e w s p a p e r, s u b s c r i p ti o n s fo r t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d th e n s u p p o r t o f t h e 20 b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t s w h ic h w a s a m o n g s t t h e f ie l d o f o p p o r t u n i ti e s t h a t t h e T N A o ffe r e d to s t a t e o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s a s w e ll a s d e p a r t m e n t s . C h a ir th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a s b e e n ta k e n – u n d e r t a k e n a lo n g s i d e e x i s ti n g i n v e s ti g a ti o n s th a t h a v e o c c u r r e d a n d w h ic h w e d r a w t o y o u r a tt e n ti o n this morning in order simply to preface where those in v e s t i g a t io n s w e n t a n d l a n d e d a n d w h e r e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o f t h e Page 5 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 c o m m i s s io n h a v e t a k e n t h e e v id e n c e f u r t h e r. C h a ir th e f ir s t o f t h o s e i s th e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s . Yo u w il l r e c a ll c o n d u c t e d it s h e a r in g s in t o s ta t e c a p t u r e in 2 0 1 7 a n d 2 0 1 8 a n d in N o v e m b e r o f l a s t y e a r p r o d u c e d t h e ir r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . I r e m e m b e r. A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h a t c o m m i t t e e l o o k e d a t o n e o f t h e k e y Es k o m c o n tr a c ts t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d w i t h th e T N A . Th e y l o o k e d a t s o m e b r o a d e r a s p e c ts b u t t h e ir p a r ti c u la r fo c u s w a s th e t h ir d o f th e c o n tr a c ts t h a t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o i n 2 0 1 4 b e tw e e n Es k o m a n d TN A i n t h e o r d e r o f 10 R 4 3 . 2 m il li o n . A n d C h a ir a n u m b e r o f fi n d in g s w e r e m a d e in r e l a t i o n t o t h a t w h ic h I w ill c o m e t o i n a m o m e n t . T h e s e c o n d i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t w e h a v e u n c o v e r e d t h a t a ls o o c c u r r e d a r o u n d t h i s is s u e is a n in v e s ti g a t io n b y th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r i n 2 0 1 3 , 2 0 1 4 a n d 2 0 1 5 w h i c h a r o s e fr o m a c o m p la i n t a ll e g i n g a c o n c e r n in s o f a r a s t h e r e w a s w h a t a p p e a r e d t o b e m i ll i o n s o f r a n d s o f b o th D e p a r t m e n t s p e n d a s w e ll a s S O E s p e n d o n T N A s i n c e i ts b e g i n n i n g s in 2 0 1 0 . A n d t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e c o n c e r n w a s a t t h a t p o in t i n t i m e T N A h a d n o a c c r e d it e d c i r c u l a ti o n f ig u r e s a n d n o v e r i f ia b l e r e a d e r s h ip . A n d s o th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r u n d e r to o k 20 w a s t o e n g a g e w i th th e D P E a n d th e v a r io u s S O E ’s w h o h a d s p e n t m o n i e s o f a d v e r t is i n g b u d g e ts w i t h t h e T N A t o u n d e r s t a n d o n w h a t b a s is th a t s p e n d w a s ju s t i fi e d a g a in s t a c o m p l a in t t h a t s a i d t h e r e is n o v e r i fi a b l e c ir c u l a t i o n o r r e a d e r s h i p fo r t h i s n e w s p a p e r w h y a r e m il li o n s o f p u b li c f u n d s n o n e t h e l e s s b e i n g d ir e c te d t o t h i s e n ti ty ? C h a ir w e h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d t h a t t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n o f t h e Page 6 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w a s a c t u a ll y n e v e r c o m p l e te d . T h e r e w a s n e v e r a f in a l r e p o r t is s u e d o n i t . A l b e i t th a t t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o r e fe r e n c e s t o t h e T N A a n d t h e e v e n tu a l s ta t e c a p t u r e r e p o r t w h ic h i s th e b a s i s f o r t h e f o r m a ti o n o f t h is c o m m i s s i o n b u t th a t s p e c i fi c in v e s ti g a t i o n d id n o t p r o d u c e a f in a l r e p o r t . N o n e th e le s s th e r e w a s i m p o r t a n t in t e r a c ti o n b e t w e e n th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ’s o ff ic e , t h e M i n i s tr y a s w e ll a s in p a r tic u l a r E s k o m a n d Tr a n s n e t w h ic h w e b e li e v e is i m p o r t a n t t o p u t t o t h e w i t n e s s e s i n t h e c o u r s e o f th is w e e k b e c a u s e i t – i t w a s a w a r n i n g fr o m C h a p t e r 9 10 I n s ti t u ti o n a t th e t i m e t h a t t h e y w e r e c o n tr a c ti n g w i t h t h e T N A a b o u t th e ju s t i fic a ti o n fo r t h a t c o n tr a c ti n g a n d t h e v a l u e fo r m o n e y t h a t m a y o r m a y n o t b e r e c e iv e d . A n d s o w e w il l b e p u tt i n g th o s e p a r ts o f in t e r a c ti o n w it h t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r to w i t n e s s e s . C h a ir i n s u m m a r y th e f o c u s o f t h e e v i d e n c e w il l b e o n t h e E s k o m a n d t h e Tr a n s n e t c o n tr a c ts w i t h T N A . T h e r e a s o n f o r th a t i s th a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y h e a r d S A B C e v id e n c e o n i ts a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h T N A . T h e r e a r e s o m e f u r t h e r a s p e c ts o f t h a t e v id e n c e w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d w i ll b e p r e s e n t e d i n a la t e r s e s s i o n o f t h e S A B C e v id e n c e . S o w e w i ll n o t tr a v e r s e t h a t th is w e e k . 20 Yo u h a v e a l s o h e a r d e v i d e n c e fr o m S A A a b o u t i ts s p e n d w it h T N A a n d s o a g a in w e d o n o t tr a v e r s e th a t . T h e f o c u s w i ll b e p a r t ic u l a r ly o n E s k o m a n d Tr a n s n e t . A n d ju s t i n s u m m a r y t h e e v id e n c e o f t h is w e e k w i ll s h o w t h a t in s o f a r a s Es k o m i s c o n c e r n e d t h e t o t a l s p e n d o f E s k o m o v e r t h e p e r io d 2 0 11 t o 2 0 1 7 w a s in t h e o r d e r o f R 5 9 . 6 m i l li o n . Page 7 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 I t w a s b r o k e n d o w n i n to t h r e e c o n tr a c t s . T h e b ig o n e , t h e t h ir d o n e w a s t h e o n e I h a v e m e n ti o n e d p r e v i o u s ly. I t w a s a c o n tr a c t f o r R 4 3 . 2 m i ll io n a n d t h e n th e r e m a i n d e r i s m a d e u p b y s u b s c r ip t io n a g r e e m e n ts w i t h t h e T N A . I n s o f a r a s Tr a n s n e t is c o n c e r n e d t h e t o ta l s p e n d o v e r t h e p e r i o d is i n t h e o r d e r o f R 1 4 7 m i lli o n a n d t h a t c o m p r i s e d b o th s u p p o r t f o r t h e b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s ts t h a t w e r e fl i te d o n S A B C a s w e ll a s a d v e r t is in g s p e n d . A n d t h e e v i d e n c e w i ll t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t h o s e v a r io u s a m o u n t s t h a t w e r e c o m m i t te d . 10 C h a ir I i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e h a d m a d e c e r t a i n fi n d i n g s . A n d I i n d ic a t e d t h a t w h a t w e p r o p o s e t o d o t h is w e e k is t a k e s o m e o f t h o s e f i n d in g s f u r t h e r. I w o u l d l ik e t o h i g h l ig h t w h a t t h e t h r e e p e r ti n e n t f i n d in g s o f th e committee were. C h a i r t h e b u n d l e s c o n ta in a ll o f th e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ts – w e w i ll t a k e y o u t o t h e m i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e . B u t ju s t i n s u m m a r y a t t h e o u ts e t t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e f o u n d i n i ts N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 r e p o r t t h a t g i v e n t h e l i m it e d c i r c u l a ti o n o f T N A i t d i d n o t s e e m c l e a r w h y E s k o m w o u ld d ir e c t s o m u c h a d v e r t is i n g s p e n d t o i t . W e p r o p o s e to d e a l w it h t h a t a s p e c t w i t h th e e v id e n c e o f 20 c u r r e n t a n d f o r m e r e m p lo y e e s o f E s k o m n e i t h e r o f w h o m g a v e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e i n o r d e r t o e x p lo r e f u r th e r w h a t c o u ld h a v e j u s t i fi e d t h is s p e n d a n d w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s v a l u e f o r m o n e y w h e n E s k o m m a d e t h e d e t e r m in a ti o n t o e n t e r i n t o t h e s e a g r e e m e n t s . T h e s e c o n d fi n d i n g o f t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e w a s t h a t M r C o ll i n M a t ji la w h o w a s th e n t h e in t e r i m C h i e f E x e c u tiv e o f Es k o m h a d Page 8 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a c t e d i m p r o p e r l y i n a w a r d in g th e c o n tr a c t o f R 4 3 .2 m il li o n t o T N A in 2 0 1 4 a n d d e s p i t e th a t t h e r e w e r e n o d is c i p l in a r y c o n s e q u e n c e s fo r M r M a t jil a a n d t h e r e w a s n o s h a r e h o l d e r f o l lo w u p i n r e l a ti o n t o h i s c o n d u c t w h ic h l a w y e r s a t t h e t i m e h a d d e t e r m i n e d t o b e e v id e n c e o f fi n a n c i a l m is c o n d u c t a s t h a t t e r m is u n d e r s t o o d i n th e P F M A . W e in t e n d t o p r o b e th a t a s p e c t f u r t h e r w i t h fo r m e r b o a r d m e m b e r s o f E s k o m i n r e la t io n t o th e ir d e c is i o n m a k i n g a t t h e t i m e a n d p r o b e w i t h t h e m w h y n o fu r t h e r s t e p s w e r e t a k e n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h i s ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e . 10 A n d t h e n t h ir d a n d r e la t e d t o t h a t t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e f o u n d th a t i t w a s u n c l e a r w h y t h e b o a r d o f E s k o m w h ic h w a s a p p o i n t e d a t t h e e n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 r a ti f ie d th a t R 4 3 m il li o n c o n tr a c t w i th T N A a n d th e y fo u n d t h a t i t – th e y c o u l d n o t u n d e r s ta n d h o w t h a t r a ti fi c a t io n d e c is i o n c o u l d b e ju s t i fi e d . C h a ir i n t h e c o u r s e o f th is w e e k w e w i ll r e c e i v e e v id e n c e fr o m t h e f o r m e r C h a ir o f t h e E s k o m b o a r d a t th e r e le v a n t t i m e a s w e ll a s o n e o th e r b o a r d m e m b e r. A n d t h o s e a s p e c ts w ill b e p r o b e d w i t h t h e m . C h a ir in r e l a ti o n t o M r M a t ji la th e r e h a v e b e e n e ff o r ts m a d e t o c o n ta c t M r M a t ji la o v e r t h e l a s t n u m b e r o f w e e k s b y t h e c o m m i s s i o n i n 20 o r d e r t o h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to m e e t w i t h h i m i n a d v a n c e o f th is w e e k ’s e v i d e n c e a n d i n d e e d t o h a v e h i m p r e s e n t e v id e n c e . T h o s e e ffo r t s h a v e n o t m e t w i th s u c c e s s . T h e y h a v e in c l u d e d t e l e p h o n ic a t te m p t s to e n g a g e h i m o n a l l a v a il a b l e p u b lic n u m b e r s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h h i m a s w e ll a s e m a ils to t h e l a s t k n o w n a d d r e s s f o r M r M a t jil a . B u t n o r e s p o n s e h a s b e e n r e c e i v e d a s y e t . Page 9 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C h a ir i t is o u r h o p e t h a t p o s s i b ly w it h t h e p u b lic i ty o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s M r M a tj il a m a y w e ll c o m e t o – i f h e h a s n o t a lr e a d y u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h is e v i d e n c e is b e i n g p r e s e n te d t o th e c o m m i s s io n a n d w e h o p e w o u l d v o l u n t a r ily e n g a g e u s s o t h a t w e c a n e n g a g e w it h h i m f u r th e r. I f t h a t d o e s n o t t a k e p l a c e C h a ir w e s u g g e s t t h a t m a y b e a n a p p r o p r i a t e c a s e f o r a R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 . 6 D ir e c tiv e a t t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h is w e e k o r i n d e e d a s u m m o n s i n d u e c o u r s e . But Mr M a t jil a is c e r t a i n l y i m p l ic a te d i n t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e ’s f in d in g s a s 10 w e ll a s in t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll h e a r i n t h e c o u r s e o f th is w e e k . A n d s o it w o u l d b e i n t h e i n t e r e s ts o f t h e c o m m i s s io n f o r h i s v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts t o b e p la c e d b e f o r e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e te s t i fy b e f o r e t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e ? ADV HOFMEYR : No. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . A n d is th e r e a n y th i n g t h a t s u g g e s ts t h a t h e w a s in v i te d a n d m a y b e th e y a l s o e x p e r i e n c e d t h e s a m e p r o b l e m s . A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e r e is a l is t o f p e r s o n s in v i t e d w e w il l t a k e y o u t o t h a t . H e i s n o t i n c lu d e d in t h a t lis t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. 20 A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t w a s p a r t o f th e r e a s o n fo r o u r e ff o r ts t o – to e n g a g e h i m f u r t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a ir o n c e w e p r o b e t h o s e a s p e c t s t h a t th e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e l e f t o p e n w e d o E s k o m fir s t w e w il l t h e n m o v e to Tr a n s n e t a n d i n t e r r o g a t e i ts ju s t i fi c a t io n fo r t h e R 1 4 7 m il li o n s p e n d w i th T N A Page 10 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 o v e r th e p e r i o d . A n d t h e e v i d e n c e th e r e w il l in c l u d e t w o c u r r e n t Tr a n s n e t e m p l o y e e s a s w e ll a s t h e f o r m e r C h a i r o f t h e B o a r d a t th e r e l e v a n t ti m e . C h a ir t h e r e is o n e c a v e a t t h a t I n e e d t o s t a te u p fr o n t a b o u t t h e e v i d e n c e o f s o m e o f th e w i t n e s s e s a n d t h is r e l a t e s p a r t ic u l a r ly t o the witnesses who were former members of the boards of Eskom and Tr a n s n e t. C h a ir t h e fo c u s o f th is w e e k ’s e v id e n c e w i ll b e o n t h e TN A 10 c o n tr a c ts . B u t a n u m b e r o f t h e s e w i tn e s s e s h a v e k n o w l e d g e a n d in f o r m a ti o n a n d in s i g h t t h a t s p a n s b e y o n d t h e t o p i c th a t w i ll b e a d d r e s s e d i n th e c o u r s e o f t h is w e e k . W e in t e n d t o p r o b e th e m a t t e r s r e l a t e d t o T N A a n d m a t te r s fl o w i n g fr o m t h o s e a s p e c ts . B u t i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t t h o s e w i tn e s s e s w il l b e a s k e d t o r e t u r n in d u e c o u r s e a s t h e o t h e r a s p e c ts o f th e i r k n o w l e d g e a n d i n s ig h t b e c o m e r e le v a n t i n th e o th e r w o r k s tr e a m s a n d w h e n th e y p r e s e n t t h e ir s e c o n d p h a s e s o f e v i d e n c e . S o i t is j u s t i m p o r t a n t t h a t i t n o t b e u n d e r s t o o d th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V H O F M E Y R : Th e q u e s ti o n s th a t a r e b e i n g a d v a n c e d th is w e e k a r e t h e s u m t o ta l . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: O f t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t m a y b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r w i tn e s s e s m a y h a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . Page 11 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 ADV HOFMEYR: C h a ir i f I c a n th e n m o v e j u s t to t h e p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts s o th a t I c a n g iv e y o u a n u p d a t e o n w h a t h a s p r e c e d e d t h e e v i d e n c e o f th is w e e k . W e w ill r e c e iv e t h e e v i d e n c e o f s e v e n w i t n e s s e s o v e r t h e course of the next four days. All of those witnesses have been s u m m o n e d t o a p p e a r a n d w e a r e i n d e b te d t o th e m f o r b e i n g h e r e a n d f o r e n g a g in g w i t h u s in a d v a n c e . I n s o f a r a s R u l e 3 . 3 ’s a r e c o n c e r n e d 3 6 R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s w e r e is s u e d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e e v id e n c e a n d o f t h o s e 3 6 3 2 r e c e iv e d m o r e 10 t h a n t h e 1 4 d a y s ’ n o t ic e t h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o in t h e R u le s o f t h e Commission. T h e r e m a i n i n g 4 – o f t h e r e m a in i n g 4 3 r e c e i v e d 1 3 d a y s ’ n o t ic e a n d 1 r e c e iv e d 6 d a y s ’ n o t ic e . T h e r e a s o n fo r th e s h o r t e r n o tic e in r e l a t i o n to th e la s t is i t w a s a n o t ic e t h a t h a d to g o t o t h e li q u i d a t o r s o f T N A . I t w a s p r o v is i o n a l ly li q u i d a te d I t h i n k a s e a r ly a s 2 0 1 8 a n d i t t o o k s o m e t i m e to b e a b l e to i d e n ti fy t h e li q u i d a t o r s b u t t h a t h a s b e e n s u c c e s s fu ll y d is p a t c h e d 6 d a y s a g o . C h a ir i t is a l s o i m p o r t a n t ju s t t o n o t e t h a t a ll o f t h e f o r m e r E s k o m b o a r d m e m b e r s w h o w e r e b o a r d m e m b e r s in e a r ly 2 0 1 5 h a v e 20 b e e n g iv e n n o tic e i n te r ms o f R u l e 3 .3 A s w e l l a s Mr – f o r M i n i s t e r G ig a b a . C h a ir it i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t I th e n p l a c e o n r e c o r d w h a t r e s p o n s e s h a v e b e e n r e c e i v e d t o d a t e b y t h o s e v a r io u s i m p li c a t e d persons. I f I c a n b e g i n w it h M r G ig a b a . M r G i g a b a w a s i m p li c a t e d o r Page 12 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 m a y b e i m p l ic a t e d in th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr P r e t o r i u s fr o m w h o m w e w il l r e c e i v e e v i d e n c e to d a y a s w e ll a s M r M k h w a n a z i w h o w il l b e a t t e n d i n g towards the end of the week. M r G i g a b a h a s r e s p o n d e d t o th a t n o t i c e b u t n o t w i t h a n a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e e i t h e r o f t h e w i t n e s s e s . What he has d o n e is h e h a s p u t f o r w a r d t o t h e c o m m is s i o n h i s v e r s io n i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e ir e v id e n c e a n d h e h a s a s k e d th a t t h a t v e r s i o n b e p l a c e d b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n . W i th y o u r l e a v e C h a ir i t is o u r i n t e n ti o n to p u t to t h e v e r y 10 w i t n e s s e s t o w h o m M r G i g a b a is r e s p o n d in g h i s v e r s i o n s o t h a t th e y w i ll h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t h e r e t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is i n o r d e r. A D V H O F M E Y R : Th e s e c o n d r e s p o n s e i s fr o m M s M a b u d e w h o is o n e o f th e f o r m e r E s k o m b o a r d m e m b e r s . M s Mabude has not applied to c r o s s - e x a m in e a w i t n e s s b u t h e r l a w y e r s h a v e i n d ic a t e d th a t s h e i s c u r r e n tly i n d is p o s e d a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f a n o p e r a t i o n . Th e y h a v e n o t a s a c o n s e q u e n c e b e e n in a p o s i t io n t o ta k e d e ta il e d i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m h e r a n d s o s h e h a s i n d i c a t e d a r e q u e s t t o r e s e r v e h e r p o s i ti o n u n t il s h e is a b l e to e n g a g e w i t h t h e m m o r e c l o s e l y a n d a f t e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e 20 evidence this week. W e h a v e a l s o r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e f r o m D o c t o r N a i d o o w h o is a ls o a f o r m e r E s k o m b o a r d m e m b e r. H e a g a i n i s n o t a p p l y i n g to c r o s s e x a m in e a n y w i t n e s s b u t h a s p r o v i d e d th e c o m m is s i o n w i t h a n a ff id a v i t a n d a g a i n w i t h y o u r le a v e w h e r e n e c e s s a r y w e p r o p o s e t o p u t h i s version to the relevant witnesses. Page 13 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A s i m i la r p o s i ti o n o b t a i n s w i t h M s K l e i n w h o is a ls o a f o r m e r b o a r d m e m b e r. M s K l e i n is o n e o f t h e f o r m e r b o a r d m e m b e r s w h o d i d g iv e e v id e n c e to t h e P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e a n d s o w h a t s h e h a s d o n e i s in r e s p o n s e p r o v i d e d u s w i t h h e r s t a te m e n t t o th e P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e . S h e is n o t a p p ly in g t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a n y o f t h e w i tn e s s e s b u t s h e d o e s w a n t h e r e s t a t e m e n t t o b e p l a c e d b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n . S h e h a s a l s o p r o v i d e d a c o p y o f a p a r ti c u l a r b o a r d m i n u t e w h ic h is r e l e v a n t t o h e r s t a te m e n t b u t w h i c h w a s a lr e a d y in th e c o m m is s i o n ’s p o s s e s s i o n a n d w h ic h w e i n t e n d t o tr a v e r s e w i t h th e w i t n e s s e s . 10 M s K l e i n m a k e s tw o f u r t h e r r e q u e s t s . S h e r e q u e s ts th a t s h e b e n o ti fi e d i f s h e is i m p l ic a te d i n a n y w a y in t h e e v i d e n c e t h is w e e k b e y o n d w h a t is c o n t a in e d in th e s ta t e m e n t o f M r Ts o ts i w h o w a s t h e e v i d e n c e – w h o w a s t h e w i t n e s s in r e s p e c t o f w h o m s h e r e c e iv e d t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e . A n d s h e h a s a l s o r e q u e s t e d t o b e n o ti f ie d i f t h e r e w e r e to b e a n y a d v e r s e fi n d i n g m a d e in r e l a ti o n t o h e r in a d v a n c e o f t h a t b e c o mi n g a f i n a l fi n d i n g o f t h e c o m m is s i o n s o t h a t s h e m i g h t b e g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s . C h a ir a s a l e g a l te a m w e s e e n o d i ffic u lt y w i t h th o s e p r o c e s s e s b u t w e d r a w t o y o u r a t t e n t io n h e r r e q u e s t s in t h a t r e g a r d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th e o n e a b o u t fi n d i n g s . ADV HOFMEYR: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s n o t – I t h i n k w h a t s h e s h o u l d b e to l d . A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s h e w o u l d n e e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t c l o s e r t o th e c o m p le t io n o f t h e h e a r in g o f e v i d e n c e o f t h e c o m m i s s io n s h e m a k e s Page 14 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h a t r e q u e s t a fr e s h b e c a u s e i t m a y – it m a y b e t h a t I w o u l d n o t b e in c li n e d t o te ll p e o p l e i n a d v a n c e . A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON : W h a t I a m g o i n g t o f i n d a g a i n s t t h e m o r i n t h e ir f a v o u r. ADV HOFMEYR: Hm. CHAIRPERSON : B u t w h a t I m i g h t d o i s g iv e th e m a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o m a k e s u b m is s i o n s o n a n y p o s s ib l e f in d in g s th a t m a y b e m a d e . A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – s o th e y m a y b e u s e d t o h o w a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e p r e v io u s P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h e p r e s e n t o n e a ls o d o e s t h i n g s . A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : B u t I d o n o t w a n t a n y b o d y t o n e c e s s a r i ly th in k w e w o u ld f ir s t g i v e t h e m f in d in g s i n a d v a n c e a n d s a y te ll u s w h a t y o u h a v e t o s a y. T h e i n c li n a t io n m a y b e m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s o n a n y p o s s i b l e fi n d i n g s a n d th e n f in d i n g s a r e m a d e o n t h e b a s is t h a t p e o p l e h a v e b e e n heard. A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w a s lo n g a s p e o p l e h a v e b e e n h e a r d I d o n o t t h i n k th a t th e r e s h o u ld n e c e s s a r ily b e a n y o b li g a ti o n g o i n g b e y o n d t h a t . A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON : S o – b u t w e w il l a l l o w p e o p l e i f t h e y w a n t to m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o n th a t a t a l a te r s ta g e . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u C h a i r w e w i ll m a k e a p a r t ic u l a r n o t e t o Page 15 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 c o m m u n ic a te w i t h h e r la w y e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : In r e la t io n to y o u r i n d i c a t io n j u s t n o w. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r th e la s t r e s p o n s e t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d i s fr o m a n o t h e r f o r m e r b o a r d m e m b e r o f E s k o m M r K a r ie m . S h e i n d i c a t e s th a t s h e is s ti ll c o n s i d e r in g h e r p o s i ti o n . S h e r e q u e s t e d y e s t e r d a y a s e r ie s o f d o c u m e n ts to b e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o h e r a n d t h a t w a s d o n e . B u t th e r e is n o a t th is s t a g e a p p li c a t io n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e o r a v e r s i o n y e t fr o m 10 M s K a r i e m . S h e w il l n o d o u b t u p d a te u s in d u e c o u r s e a n d w e w i ll a l e r t t h e C h a ir to a n y f u r t h e r r e s p o n s e s fr o m o t h e r f o r m e r b o a r d m e m b e r s . C h a ir t h o s e a r e t h e p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts o f t h e w a y. If I may t h e n j u s t c o n c l u d e w i t h – w h a t w e s u b m i t a r e th e fi v e m a i n q u e s t io n s t h a t th e e v i d e n c e o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h i s w e e k w il l s e e k t o p r o b e . C h a ir t h e fi r s t o f t h o s e is w h y e x e c u t i v e s o f s t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s d ir e c te d m il li o n s o f r a n d s o f th e i r m e d ia a n d a d v e r t is in g b u d g e t s t o t h e T N A w h e n i t h a d n o a c c r e d i te d c i r c u l a ti o n a n d n o v e r i fi e d r e a d e r s h i p . T h e s e c o n d is w h a t i f a n y p r o p e r v a lu e f o r m o n e y a n a l y s i s w a s 20 d o n e b y th e s t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s b e fo r e th e y c o m m i t t e d m il li o n s o f r a n d s t o th e T N A . T h e t h i r d is w h e t h e r – is w h e r e t h e r e w e r e p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s w i t h i n th e s t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s t o r e g u la t e m e d i a a d v e r t is i n g s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d s u b s c r i p ti o n s to w h a t e x t e n t m a y i t b e h e l d o r f o u n d t h a t t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s w i th T N A w e r e ir r e g u la r b e c a u s e th e y f l o u t e d Page 16 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 those processes. T h e fo u r t h is w h a t i s t h e r o l e o f n o n - e x e c u tiv e b o a r d m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d s o f S O E ’s in r e la t io n to t h e s p e n d o f t h o s e S O E ’s a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r in t h i s c a s e w h a t i s th e i r d u ty w h e n i r r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e i s id e n t i fi e d w h e r e a u d i t o r s a r e s e e k i n g to r e p o r t o n i t ? W h a t o b l ig a ti o n s d o t h o s e b o a r d s h a v e i n th e fa c e o f s u c h ir r e g u la r e x p e n d i tu r e ? A n d f i n a ll y w h a t i s t h e r o l e o f t h e s h a r e h o l d e r w h e n fi n a n c i a l m is c o n d u c t o c c u r s w i th i n a S O E ? C h a ir 10 we submit that these questions are all r e le v a n t p o t e n t i a l ly to t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t y o u m a y c o n s i d e r m a k i n g a t th e conclusion of the evidence. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d w i t h t h a t b a c k g r o u n d i n p l a c e i f I m a y h a n d o v e r t o Mr M b ik iw a w h o w i ll l e a d t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr P r e t o r i u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u M s H o f m e y r. A D V M B I K IWA : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Mr M b ik iw a . A D V M B I K I WA : C h a ir I i n te n d t o g o s t r a ig h t in t o M r P r e t o r iu s ’ evidence so with your leave he may be sworn in. C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s te r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ? 20 R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : P i e t e r J o h a n n e s Pr e t o r i u s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r conscience? Page 17 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : I d o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o h e lp m e G o d . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r P r e t o r i u s j u s t t o a s s is t y o u t o g e t y o u r b e a r i n g s t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f fi le s a r o u n d y o u . T h e f il e s – C h a i r 10 m a y w e e n te r in t o th e r e c o r d a s E x h i b i t M M 1 a a n d M M 1 b t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r Pr e t o r i u s a n d it s a n n e x u r e s ? CHAIRPERSON : Ja. T h e l e v e r a r c h fi l e c o n ta i n i n g t h e s t a te m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t o f M r P ie t e r J o h a n n e s P r e t o r iu s a n d a n n e x u r e s w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t M M 1 a a n d t h e o th e r l e v e r a r c h fi l e th a t h a s g o t f u r th e r a n n e x u r e s r e la t in g t o Mr Pr e t o r i u s ’ s ta t e m e n t w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t MM1b. A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V M B I K I WA : C h a ir d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f M r P r e to r i u s ’ e v id e n c e I d o 20 in t e n d t o r e f e r h i m t o t h e a ff i d a v i ts a n d a n n e x u r e s o f th e o t h e r w i t n e s s e s w e w ill h e a r d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e w e e k . Would it be c o n v e n i e n t i f w e c o u l d e n t e r in t h e ir a ff id a v i t s a t t h i s s t a g e a s w e ll a s E x h i b i ts ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t t h o u g h th e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s ? W h ic h a ff i d a v i ts are those? Page 18 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K I WA : N o C h a ir i t i s th e w i t n e s s e s w h o w il l b e a p p e a r in g d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e w e e k a n d th e … CHAIRPERSON : Well you… A D V M B I K I WA : A n d t h e d o c u m e n ts in t h e ir b u n d le s I w i ll b e r e f e r r in g M r Pr e to r i u s to . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y r e fe r w i t h o u t u s a d m i t ti n g th o s e , w e w i ll d o t h a t a s a n d w h e n t h e w it n e s s e s c o m e . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y r e f e r – y o u m a y t e l l th e w it n e s s t h a t th e r e is 10 a n a ffi d a v it b y s o a n d s o w h o s a y s t h e f o l l o w i n g . O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . A D V M B I K IWA : M r Pr e t o r i u s y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d a s i g n e d s t a te m e n t to the Commission. T h a t b e g in s a t p a g e 1 o f F il e M M 1 A a n d it e n d s a t p a g e 3 0 o f t h a t f il e . I t s a n n e x u r e s t h e n r u n fr o m p a g e 3 1 a ll th e w a y t o p a g e 7 5 1 in M M 1 B . C a n y o u h a v e a l o o k a t t h e s t a te m e n t a n d c o n f ir m t h a t th a t i s t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d t o th e C o m m i s s i o n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I n d e e d i t is . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d c a n y o u g o t o p a g e 3 0 a n d c o n fir m t h a t i t is y o u r 20 s ig n a tu r e t h a t a p p e a r s th e r e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I t i s . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u a n d c a n y o u c o n fir m t h a t th e c o n t e n ts o f t h a t s t a te m e n t a r e tr u e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I c a n . Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : Thanks. M r P r e to r i u s a r e t h e r e - a t t h e o u ts e t a r e Page 19 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h e r e a n y c o r r e c t i o n s th a t y o u - t h a t y o u w is h t o m a k e t o t h a t s t a te m e n t . M R P R E TO R I U S : N o s ir. A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. M r Pr e t o r i u s t o s t a r t c a n y o u t e ll u s w h a t y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s a r e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I h a v e a B A C o m m u n i c a ti o n D e g r e e i n - fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f th e N o r t h W e s t a n d a n H o n o u r s D e g r e e in J o u r n a l is m a n d P u b l ic R e l a t i o n s a n d a P o s t - P o s t G r a d u a t e D ip l o m a i n M a r k e ti n g . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h a t is y o u r e m p l o y m e n t h i s t o r y ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : I h a v e b e e n e m p l o y e d a t E s k o m fo r t h e l a s t 3 1 y e a r s . CHAIRPERSON : S o r r y. M r P r e to r i u s p l e a s e j u s t r a i s e y o u r v o ic e a li t tl e b i t … M R P R E TO R I U S : S ir m y a p o l o g i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r - o r b r i n g t h e m i c c l o s e r. J a . O k a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : Is th a t b e t t e r C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is m u c h b e t t e r. M R P R E T O R I U S : M y a p o l o g i e s . I h a v e b e e n e m p l o y e d w i th E s k o m f o r the past 31 years in various roles. A D V M B I K IWA : C a n y o u - c a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h e r o l e s t h a t y o u 20 held at Eskom? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o m y fir s t p o s i t io n w a s I w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a n o n - t e c h n ic a l i n s t r u c t o r. S o in th e tr a in in g d e p a r t m e n t o f M a t la P o w e r S t a ti o n . N i n e m o n t h s l a t e r I w a s p r o m o te d t o t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n o ffic e . A p o s i ti o n a t t h e p o w e r s t a ti o n a s i t b e c a m e v a c a n t . Fr o m t h e r e I w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e C o m m u n ic a ti o n A d v is o r t o Page 20 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h e t h e n G r o u p E x e c u t iv e f o r G e n e r a t i o n M r J o h a n Va n D e r B e r g a n d fr o m t h e r e I w a s - I m o v e d o v e r t o C o r p o r a te in t h e r o le o f t h e P u b lic R e l a t i o n s M a n a g e r f o r E s k o m a n d t h e n I a p p li e d f o r t h e p o s i t io n o f t h e H e a d o f M a r k e ti n g a n d w a s s u c c e s s f u l a n d t h a t i s t h e p o s i t io n t h a t I c u r r e n tly h o l d . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y a n d y o u - y o u s a y in y o u r a ffi d a v it th a t y o u a r e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r s t r a t e g ic m a r k e t i n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : S tr a t e g ic m a r k e t in g . Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : 10 C a n y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e C o m m i s s io n w h a t s tr a t e g ic m a r k e t in g i s a n d h o w t h a t d i ff e r s f r o m m a r k e ti n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o s tr a t e g ic m a r k e ti n g i s s p e c i fic - s p e c i fi c a ll y a i m e d a t s p e c i fic b u s i n e s s p r o b l e m o r a c a u s e . S o i n - e a s y t o e x p l a i n f o r u s is - is E s k o m . W e h a d s o m e p o w e r c o n s tr a i n ts a n d a n e n e r g y e ffic i e n c y c a m p a ig n w o u l d t h e n b e a c a u s e . S o it i s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t o g e n e r a te m o r e - m o r e s a l e s w h i c h is t h e o t h e r s i d e o f m a r k e t i n g t h a t i s m a r k e t in g a n d s a l e s . S o N e s t le w o u l d g e n e r a t e s a l e s o n a s p e c i fi c p r o d u c t . S o t h e s a l e s t e a m w il l h a v e ta r g e ts . T h e m a r k e ti n g t e a m w i ll s u p p o r t th e m . C a u s e o r m a r k e t - s tr a t e g ic m a r k e t in g is p u r e l y a b o u t a b u s i n e s s 20 p r o b le m t h a t e x is ts w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a t io n t h a t is s o lv e d n o t o n ly n e c e s s a r i ly b y m a r k e t in g b u t a ls o w i t h s o m e t e c h n i c a l a s p e c ts . S o i n e n e r g y e ff ic ie n c y i t w a s m a r k e ti n g c a m p a i g n a s w e ll a s t h e l ig h t b u l b e x c h a n g e p r o g r a m th a t w e h a d . T h e g e y s e r b la n k e t p r o g r a m t h a t w e h a d . T h e s o la r w a t e r g e y s e r s th a t w e in s ta ll e d a n d s o o n . S o t h e r e i s a - a p r o d u c t c o m p o n e n t t o i t - a t e c h n ic a l c o m p o n e n t Page 21 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a s w e ll a s a m a r k e ti n g c o m p o n e n t . A D V M B I K IWA : N o w M r Pr e to r i u s a s y o u k n o w th e - t h e s u b j e c t m a t te r o f t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e is p r e d o m i n a n tl y t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n E s k o m a n d - a n d T h e N e w A g e . B e fo r e w e g e t th e r e t h o u g h I w o u l d li k e t o - t o s p e n d s o m e t i m e f o r y o u t o a s s is t t h e C o m m i s s io n t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h e p r o c e s s e s w e r e t h a t e x i s t e d w i th in E s k o m in r e l a ti o n t o a d v e r t is in g and - and sponsorship agreements. Yo u - y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 9 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t o n p a g e 3 t h a t E s k o m u s e s a g e n c i e s f o r i ts s tr a t e g ic m a r k e ti n g . 10 In - in w h a t c ir c u m s ta n c e s w o u ld - w o u l d E s k o m u s e a n a g e n c y ? M R P R E TO R I U S : E s k o m w o u l d e m p l o y fiv e a g e n c i e s g e n e r a l ly. S o y o u w i ll h a v e a c r e a ti v e a g e n c y. Yo u w i ll h a v e a m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y. Yo u w i ll h a v e t w o P R a g e n c ie s . O f l a t e w e w ill h a v e a d i g i t a l a g e n c y t h a t lo o k s a t t h e s o c i a l m e d i a s i d e o f - s o t h e - t h e s e a g e n c ie s a r e appointed as agents at large. T h a t m a y e n t e r in t o s e c o n d a r y a g r e e m e n ts o n b e h a l f o f E s k o m a n d t h e n in v o ic e E s k o m a n d E s k o m w o u ld - w o u ld p a y th e m . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d h o w a r e th e y a p p o i n t e d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 c o m m e r c ia l I t is th r o u g h a c o m m e r c i a l p r o c e s s . process. So at t h is p a r ti c u la r time we I open a were s t il l a d v e r t is in g . S o w e w o u ld a d v e r tis e i n t h e n e w s p a p e r s . O n t h e w e b s i t e a n d s o o n a n d th e n th e a g e - th e a g e n c ie s th e n o b v i o u s l y d o t h e ir s u b m is s io n s a n d th o s e s u b m is s i o n s a r e t h e n e v a l u a t e d i n t e r m s o f E s k o m ’s B E E r e q u ir e m e n ts a n d t h e s u c c e s s f u l c a n d i d a t e s a r e t h e n p r o v i d e d t o t h e t e c h n ic a l t e a m w h o t h e n e v a l u a te s i n d i v i d u a lly i n a Page 22 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r o o m th a t i s n o - n o t h i n g e ls e is a l lo w e d in th e r e e x c e p t t h e in d iv i d u a l . S o th a t t h e r e c o u l d b e n o c o m m u n i c a ti o n b e t w e e n th e in d i v i d u a l a n d a n y p o s s ib le s u p p li e r. S o t h e y w i ll d o th e e v a l u a ti o n a n d o n c e t h e e v a lu a ti o n i s d o n e . T h e s h o r t li s t e d a g e n c i e s a r e t h e n in v i t e d t o d o a p i t c h p r e s e n ta t io n . S o t h e y w il l p r e s e n t t h e ir c r e d e n ti a l s . T h e ir f o r m e r c a s e s t u d i e s a n d t h e n t h a t w o u ld b e s c o r e d a n d a ll th e s c o r e s w i ll th e n b e a d d e d u p a n d t h e n th e P P P FA s i n c e i t w a s s ig n e d in t o l a w w o u ld b e a p p li e d . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d a p a r t fr o m a c t u a ll y c o n c l u d i n g c o n tr a c ts a s 10 a n a g e n t w h a t - w h a t r o le d o - d o th e a g e n c ie s p l a y f o r E s k o m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e y p l a y d i ffe r e n t r o le s . S o t h e - t h e m e d i a b u y i n g agency would be responsible for all media buying on behalf of Eskom a l l fo r m s o f m e d i a . T h e c r e a tiv e a g e n c y w o u l d b e t h e a d v e r t is in g a g e n c y o r w e c a l l i t c r e a ti v e a g e n c y b e c a u s e t h e y d o m o r e t h a n j u s t a d v e r t is in g - c r e a tiv e a d v e r t is in g . T h e P R a g e n c i e s - y o u w il l h a v e a c o r p o r a te P R a g e n c y w h o lo o k s a f te r t h e c o r p o r a te P R o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d a s s i s t s Ex c o in c e r t a i n c r i t ic a l is s u e s a n d s o o n a n d th e n y o u w il l h a v e a n a c tiv a ti o n s a g e n c y. A s y o u c a n u n d e r s t a n d E s k o m h a s a - a l o t o f c u s t o m e r s t h a t 20 a r e o n t h e lo w e r e n d o f t h e L S M G r o u p i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e w e i n te r a c t w i t h t h e m o n a - o n d i ff e r e n t ly a n d - a n d d i r e c t w a y. S o w e h a v e a c t iv a t i o n s a g e n c y a n d t h e n th e d i g i t a l a g e n c y w i ll l o o k a ft e r t h e s o c i a l m e d i a , Fa c e b o o k , Tw i t te r, In s ta g r a m , L i n k e d I n and so on. A D V M B I K IWA : C a n w e - c a n w e f o c u s o n th e m e d ia b u y in g a g e n c y ? Page 23 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t th a t is t h e a g e n c y th a t w o u ld b e r e s p o n s ib le fo r a d v e r t - a d v e r t is in g i n n e w s p a p e r s f o r e x a m p le . C a n y o u - c a n y o u ta lk u s t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s t h a t - t h a t E s k o m g o e s t h r o u g h w i t h - w i th th e m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y w h e n i t d e c id e s t o a d v e r t is e i n a n e w s p a p e r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . S o th e p r o c e s s t h a t - th a t w o u l d b e f o l l o w e d i n E s k o m in t e r m s o f th e - t h e p o l ic y a n d th e p r o c e d u r e t h a t is i n p l a c e is a b r ie f in g d o c u m e n t is c o m p i l e d a n d t h e b r i e f i n g d o c u m e n t i n c lu d e s b a c k g r o u n d in f o r m a t io n . W h a t i s t h e p r o b le m ? W h a t a r e - w h a t d o w e a lr e a d y k n o w a b o u t t h e p r o b l e m e t c e t e r a a n d t h a t b r ie f in g d o c u m e n t 10 w i ll th e n b e s e n t t o a ll a g e n c ie s a n d t h e a g e n c ie s w il l h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t a n d t h e n w e w il l a c o u p l e - a c o u p l e o f d a y s la t e r w e w il l i n v it e t h e m t o a b r ie f in g s e s s i o n w h e r e w e a l l o w t h e m t o a s k q u e s t io n s a n d t o h a v e a d is c u s s i o n a n d s o o n a n d i n t h a t m e e t in g w e w ill s a y o k a y w h ic h a g e n c y w i ll t a k e t h e l e a d . S o t h e n th e c r e a t iv e a g e n c y w o u l d g o a n d d e v e l o p a c r e a ti v e id e a a n d t h e a d v e r t is i n g a r o u n d t h a t a n d o n c e t h a t h a s b e e n s ig n e d o ff t h a t w ill b e - b e p la c e d i n n e w s p a p e r s , m a g a z i n e s , t e l e v i s i o n , r a d i o a n d s o o n . W h ils t t h e c r e a tiv e a g e n c y i s d o i n g t h e c r e a t iv e w o r k th e m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y is d o in g a s tr a t e g y a s t o h o w w e b e s t w i ll c o n n e c t 20 b e c a u s e t h e b r ie f in g d o c u m e n t w i ll s t a t e v e r y c le a r w h o i s t h e t a r g e t m a r k e t a n d t h e t a r g e t - t h e - th e m e d i a b u y in g a g e n c y w il l t h e n g o t h r o u g h t h e r e s e a r c h a n d th e ir a c c e s s to r e s e a r c h a n d t h e ir e x p e r i e n c e w i ll t h e n f i n d t h e m o s t s u it a b l e t o o ls t o c o n n e c t w i t h t h o s e s p e c i fi c target audience. S o t h e y w il l p r o v i d e u s w i t h a m e d i a p l a n o r c o n n e c ti o n p la n Page 24 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a n d w e w il l s i g n t h a t o ff a n d i t i s i n d e t a il a s t o w h e n th e a d v e r t w il l a p p e a r o n H i g h v e l d o r o n 7 0 2 o r w h a te v e r a s w e ll a s a n o v e r a l l p l a n in t e r m s o f th e c o s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r P r e to r i u s y o u - y o u s a y i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t th a t p a r t ic u l a r ly i m p o r t a n t f o r E s k o m is - is fr e q u e n c y a n d reach. M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : C a n - c a n y o u e x p l a in w h a t y o u m e a n b y t h a t ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : marketers. W e ll i t is n o t j u s t fo r E s k o m . S o it is f o r m o s t S o f r e q u e n c y is h o w o f te n d o e s th e a d v e r t a p p e a r o n t e l e v i s i o n o r o n r a d io o r i n a n e w s p a p e r o r m a g a z in e . S o t h e fr e q u e n c y is I c a n n o t p l a c e a n a d v e r t o n c e in o n e n e w s p a p e r a n d e x p e r t t h a t I h a v e n o w - h a v e a w a r e n e s s a r o u n d th e s p e c i f ic i s s u e . S o t h e fr e q u e n c y is - is q u i te i m p o r ta n t . T h e r e a c h is a ls o i m p o r t a n t i n t e r m s o f c o n n e c t in g w i th t h e r ig h t p e o p l e . S o i f I w a n t t o t a lk t o p e o p le i n L S M 1 - o n e o r t w o o r t h r e e a n d I a m u s i n g c in e m a t h e n I a m n o t g o i n g t o c o n n e c t w i t h th o s e p e o p l e b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t go to cinema. 20 A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t r e s e a r c h p l a y s a n i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f d e t e r m i n i n g t h a t . W h a t - w h a t s o r t o f i n d ic a to r s a r e u s e d b y t h e m e d ia b u y i n g a g e n c i e s to d e te r mi n e y o u r r e a c h ? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o t h e m e d ia b u y - m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y w i ll - w i ll lo o k o b v i o u s ly a t t h e c ir c u l a ti o n o f - o f t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d E s k o m h a s a p o li c y t h a t w e o n ly d e a l w it h - w i t h a c c r e d i te d p u b l ic a t i o n s t h a t h a v e Page 25 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 b e e n a u d i te d . S o - a n d / o r v i e w e r s h i p o r l i s te n e r s h i p . S o i t is j u s t - i t is n o t j u s t a b o u t n e w s p a p e r s . S o w e w il l l o o k a t th e - t h e c ir c u la t io n . W e w il l a ls o lo o k a t t h e b e h a v io u r a l a s p e c ts a r o u n d t h e - th e t a r g e t m a r k e t in t e r m s o f t h e m e d i a . S o t h e r e is m e d i a r e s e a r c h t h a t is b e i n g d o n e o n a c o n ti n u o u s b a s is a n d th e m e d i a a g e n c y h a s a c c e s s t o t h a t . S o th e y w il l b e a b le t o te ll y o u h o w m a n y p e o p l e h a v e r e a d t h e Y O U i n t h e la s t s e v e n d a y s , w h o h a v e w a tc h e d S u r v iv o r o n - o n television in the last seven days and so on. S o t h a t h a s a n i m p a c t . A l s o th e p o p u la r i t y o f th e p r o g r a m o r 10 - te le v i s i o n s p e c i f ic a l ly - p o p u la r i ty o f th e p r o g r a m w il l a ls o d e te r m i n e t h e p r ic e o f t h e - o f t h e a d v e r t is in g . S o s o m e ti m e s i t m a y b e th e b e s t o p t io n b u t it is n o t c o s t e ffe c tiv e . S o a ll o f t h a t r e s e a r c h i s t h e n p u t t o g e th e r in a s tr a te g y d o c u m e n t a n d th e s tr a t e g y d o c u m e n t i s t h e n p r e s e n t e d t o - to t h e c li e n t a n d t h e c l i e n t s a y s w e l l y e s . W e a g r e e o r n o t w e d o n o t a g r e e . W e w o u l d lik e th is o r w e w o u ld l ik e th a t o r w e w i ll a s k f o r m o r e m o n e y in o r d e r t o d o th is o r t h a t , b u t e v e n t u a l ly th e s tr a t e g y d o c u m e n t is s ig n e d o ff b y th e c li e n t a n d fr o m t h e - t h e s tr a t e g y d o c u m e n t t h e c o n n e c ti o n p l a n is t h e n d e v e lo p e d w h ic h i s t h e n tr a n s l a t e d in t o a b u y i n g p l a n . 20 A D V M B I K IWA : A n d M r P r e t o r i u s y o u s a i d t h a t E s k o m h a s a p o li c y o f n o t d e a l in g w it h - w i t h p u b lic a ti o n s t h a t a r e n o t a c c r e d i t e d . W h a t is th e process for accreditation? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e ll i t is t h e p u b - t h e p u b l ic a t i o n i ts e l f o r th e t e l e v i s i o n s t a ti o n o r th e r a d i o s t a ti o n i ts e lf n e e d s to - to a p p l y to t h e A B I - t h e A u d it e d B u r e a u o f - s o r r y. Page 26 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K IWA : I b e li e v e i t i s c ir c u l a t i o n . M R P R E TO R I U S : ABC. S o r r y. A u d i t e d B u r e a u o f C ir c u la t io n s . My a p o lo g i e s . T h e y w o u ld a p p ly a n d th e y - r e s e a r c h w i ll b e d o n e b y t h e m . A n a u d i t - a u d i t w i ll b e d o n e b y th e m i n t e r m s o f - o f r e a d e r s h ip c ir c u l a ti o n s o r r y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d g i v e n t h e p r o c e s s th a t y o u h a v e d e s c r ib e d w o u ld y o u r e g a r d i t a s u n u s u a l i f Es k o m e n t e r e d i n t o a l o n g t e r m c o n tr a c t o r s p e n t a s i g n i fi c a n t s u m o f m o n e y w i t h a m e d i a p u b li c a t io n w i t h - a b o u t w h ic h th e r e w a s li t tl e o r n o m a r k e t r e s e a r c h ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I t w o u l d b e v e r y u n u s u a l. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d s o c a n y o u - c a n y o u e x p l a i n w h y - h o w o r w h e th e r E s k o m w o u ld e v e r y s u p p o r t s m a l l m e d i a p u b l ic a t i o n s o r n e w e n t r a n ts … M R P R E TO R I U S : H m . A D V M B I K IWA : W h i c h p e r h a p s d i d n o t h a v e th is m a r k e t r e s e a r c h about them. M R P R E TO R I U S : W e d o a n d w e d o c a u t i o u s ly. S o w e w il l n o t e n te r a s y o u r p r e v io u s q u e s ti o n - g o in t o a l o n g t e r m a g r e e m e n t w i th a l o t o f m o n e y. S o w e w i ll s t a r t s m a ll a n d h e l p b u il d th e p u b li c a t i o n w i th o t h e r m a r k e t e r s w it h in - in S o u t h A f r i c a a n d o n c e th e p u b lic a ti o n i s a u d i t e d 20 a n d th e ir c i r c u l a ti o n f ig u r e s a r e u p t o s t a n d a r d a n d s o o n . Then we w o u ld s u p p o r t a p u b l ic a ti o n . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u a n d - a n d M r P r e to r i u s th e - t h e la s t a s p e c t o n - o n t h e a g e n c i e s I w o u l d a p p r e c i a te y o u r a s s is t a n c e w i th is r e m u n e r a t io n . H o w - h o w d o y o u p a y t h e m - th e m e d ia a g e n c i e s ? H o w are they remunerated by Eskom? Page 27 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : B y E s k o m ? A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : Eskom pays them a fee. So we would det ermine fr o m a ll t h e - th e s tr a t e g i c m a r k e t i n g i n it i a tiv e s w e w i ll d e t e r m i n e h o w m u c h th e - th e b u d g e t w o u ld b e a n d fr o m t h a t b u d g e t w e w o u l d p a y t h e m b e t w e e n t h r e e a n d f iv e p e r c e n t - is t h e ir f e e t h a t t h e y g e t p a i d t o d o th e w o r k a n d t h e y p r o v id e u s w i t h a r e s o u r c e p la n a c c o r d in g t o t h a t fi v e p e r c e n t w h a t e v e r. S o y o u w il l h a v e t h e b u s i n e s s u n it d ir e c t o r. Yo u d o n o t n e e d 10 e v e r y s e c o n d d a y. So you may have 50 percent. Th e s t r a t e g is t y o u m a y u s e o c c a s i o n a l ly. S o y o u w il l h a v e fi v e p e r c e n t o f t h e s tr a te g i s t’ s ti m e . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th e - t h a t t h e a g e n c i e s t h e n a ls o o b t a i n a r e b a te fr o m t h e - w h a t y o u d e s c r i b e a s t h e m e d i a o w n e r i . e . t h e m e d i a p u b l ic a t i o n . C a n y o u e x p l a i n h o w th a t w o r k s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. S o u p u n t il v e r y r e c e n tl y t h e r e w a s a 1 6 .5 p e r c e n t r e b a t e w h ic h i s a c o m m i s s i o n t h a t is p a i d t o t h e a g e n ts a g e n c y f o r b r i n g in g t h e b u s i n e s s . I t i s s i m il a r t o a c a r s a l e s m a n w h o s e l ls a c a r w h o - w h o e a r n s c o m m i s s io n . 20 S o t h a t 1 6 .5 p e r c e n t c a n b e u s e d b y o r g a n is a t io n s t o - t o p a y t h e a g e n c y a n d s a y th e c o m m i s s io n - th e 1 6 . 5 p e r c e n t is w h a t y o u e a r n o r a l t e r n a ti v e ly is l ik e I d id i n - i n Es k o m ’ s c a s e a n d m a d e i t m o r e c o s t e ffe c t iv e f o r m e is t o - t o p a y th e m a f e e a n d t h e n ta k e t h e 1 6 . 5 p e r c e n t p a y b a c k to E s k o m a n d th a t 1 6 .5 p e r c e n t is t h e n u s e d t o p a y t h e ir fe e a n d i t i s u s e d t o p a y th e - th e c r e a ti v e a g e n c y ’s f e e s a n d t h e b a l a n c e is Page 28 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 i m p l e m e n t - r e in v e s te d s o r r y - i n - i n t h e c a m p a i g n . S o t h e 1 6 . 5 p e r c e n t is - w a s a s ta n d a r d b u t r e c e n tl y th e C o m p e t it i o n C o m m i s s io n s a id t h a t i t is u n c o m p e ti t iv e . T h e r e f o r e t h e t h e a g e n c ie s c a n n o w o r t h e m e d i a o w n e r s - s o r r y - c a n n o w d e t e r m i n e t h e ir o w n c o m m is s i o n s . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u . H o w - h o w r e c e n tly w a s th a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I t h in k i t is w i t h i n t h e la s t s ix m o n th s . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. Can we then move onto the issue of s p o n s o r s h i p ? Yo u - y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t a t y o u r a ffi d a v i t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 10 23 on page 6. C a n y o u b e i n g b y e x p la i n i n g t o u s w h a t a - w h a t a s p o n s o r s h i p a g r e e m e n t is a n d - a n d h o w it d i ff e r s f r o m a d v e r tis i n g i n the ordinary course? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . S p o n s o r s h ip is - w e ll f ir s t ly it is a c o m m e r c i a l tr a n s a c ti o n b e t w e e n a n o r g a n is a ti o n a n d t h e s p o n s o r s h ip p r o p e r ty o w n e r. S o th is s p o n s o r s h ip p r o p e r ty o w n e r w i ll c o m e t o y o u a n d s a y I h a v e t h is p r o p e r ty w h i c h is - a n d I a m ju s t g o i n g t o u s e th e r u g b y a s a s a n e x a m p l e b e c a u s e i t is r e l e v a n t n o w. T h e - A b s a B a n k w i ll - w ill t h a t s p o n s o r s th e r u g b y t h e y w il l d o s o b e c a u s e t h e r e is a c o m m e r c i a l b e n e fi t fo r t h e m . 20 T h e y e i t h e r g e t m o r e c li e n ts o r t h e y g e t m o r e b u s in e s s t h r o u g h th i s . S o t h e r e is a c o m m e r c i a l b e n e f i t to t h a t . T h a t i s th e f ir s t t h i n g . T h e s e c o n d t h i n g i s t h a t f o r e v e r y R 1 ,0 0 t h a t y o u s p o n s o r y o u m u s t h a v e a t l e a s t R 3 , 0 0 t o l e v e r a g e th a t s p o n s o r s h i p t o t e ll t h e w o r l d t h a t I a m s p o n s o r in g a n d th a t - y o u d o c o m m e r c i a l s d u r in g b r e a k t i m e s . W h e n it is h a l f ti m e y o u d o c o m m e r c i a ls o r s q u e e z e b a c k s o n Page 29 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t e l e v i s i o n a n d s o o n . S o t h a t s p o n s o r s h i p a g r e e m e n t t h e n v e r y c le a r ly s p e l ls o u t - o u t t h e r o le o f th e s p o n s o r s h i p . In o th e r w o r d s i n th is c a s e - i n t h is e x a m p le - A b s a B a n k . W h a t is t h e ir r o l e ? W h a t a r e th e y t o p r o v i d e ? C l e a r l y s p e ll s t h a t o u t a n d i t a ls o c l e a r l y s p e ll s o u t t h e - t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f th e p r o p e r ty o w n e r. W h a t t h e y n e e d S o S o u th A fr ic a n R u g b y n e e d s to p r o v id e th is , t h is , t h i s a n d t h is a n d t h e s e tw o t h i n g s a r e m e a s u r e d a t th e e n d o f th e d a y a n d o n t h e s p o n s o r s h ip f r o m - fr o m s o m e t h i n g l ik e a n A b s a B a n k w o u l d b e w h a t i s t h e c o m m e r c i a l b e n e fi t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y. 10 A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y ; a n d - a n d c a n y o u d e s c r ib e f o r u s w h a t p r o c e s s m u s t b e f o l l o w e d b e f o r e a s p o n s o r s h i p a g r e e m e n t is e n te r e d i n t o a n d h o w t h a t d i ff e r s f r o m a d v e r t is i n g th r o u g h a m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y fo r example? M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. I n E s k o m w e h a v e a - a s p o n s o r s h i p d e s k . S o a l l s p o n s o r s h i p s t h a t a r e r e c e iv e d i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n is s u p p o s e d t o b e s e n t t o t h e s p o n s o r s h ip d e s k fir s t. T h a t i s t h e fir s t p o r t o f c a ll . Th e r e is a s p e c i f ic c r it e r ia in - i n w h ic h a s p o n s o r s h ip i s m e a s u r e d a g a i n s t f o r E s k o m a n d th is is d e v e l o p e d w i th t h e - t h e c o o p e r a t i o n o f - o f E x c o a n d it is p a r t o f th e 20 p o li c y d o c u m e n ts . S o i t i s s i g n e d o ff w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d t h a t - o n c e - i f t h e s p o n s o r s h i p is m e a s u r e d a n d i t s c o r e s 7 5 p e r c e n t a n d a b o v e i t m a y b e r e c o m m e n d e d t o g o to t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t te e f o r a p p r o v a l . Provided that there is budget. So if I get a sponsorship for an e n v ir o n m e n t a l c o n fe r e n c e I w o u l d g o t o t h e E n v ir o n m e n t a l M a n a g e r Page 30 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w i t h i n E s k o m o r t h e S u s t a i n a b il i ty D e p a r t m e n t a n d s a y a r e y o u in t e r e s te d in - i n s p o n s o r i n g t h i s a n d i s t h i s a p a r ti c u l a r i m p o r t a n t s t a k e h o ld e r f o r y o u a n d s o o n . T h e y m a y s a y y e s a n d th e y m a y s a y t h e y h a v e t h e b u d g e t a n d t h e n w e w il l t a k e i t t o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e a n d a p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d - a n d s u b m is s io n d o c u m e n t s w il l b e d o n e a n d t h e n i t w o u ld b e a p p r o v e d . O n c e t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e h a s a p p r o v e d i t y o u s til l n e e d t o e n te r in t o a c o n tr a c t w i th t h e - th e s p o n s o r s p o n s o r s h i p o w n e r - t h e p r o p e r ty o w n e r i n o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e 10 r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a r e s p e l t o u t a n d t h a t w e a r e p r o t e c t e d a n d s o o n . W e th e n a ls o s i t d o w n w it h th e m b e fo r e w e c o n c l u d e th e c o n tr a c t a n d n e g o ti a t e th e b e n e f it s . W h a t is t h e b e n e fi ts t h a t w e a s a n o r g a n i s a t io n w i ll d e r iv e fr o m t h is a s s o c ia ti o n w i th y o u a s a s p o n s o r s p o n s o r s h i p o w n e r a n d th e n c o n tr a c t is c o n c l u d e d a n d s ig n e d a n d t h e sponsorship then goes ahead. A D V M B I K IWA : Yo u h a v e - y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d th e S p o n s o r s h ip C o m m i t t e e . W h a t is t h a t a n d w h e r e - w h e r e i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n d o e s i t fi t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. O r i g i n a l ly u p u n t il v e r y r e c e n t ly l a s t y e a r t h e 20 C o r p o r a te A ff a i r s D iv is io n - M A N C O - f u l fi l - f u lf il l e d t h e r o le o f t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e a s w e ll a s t h e M a n a g e m e n t C o m m i t t e e . S o r r y. Yo u r q u e s ti o n f u r th e r w a s w h e r e is i t p o s i t io n e d . I t is c u r r e n t ly a s u b c o m m i t t e e o f t h e C o r p o r a t e A ff a i r s - M A N C O - w i th i ts o w n t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e , i ts o w n C h a ir m a n a n d h a s b e e n i n o p e r a t i o n fo r a l m o s t a y e a r n o w. Page 31 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u . C a n w e j u s t g o t o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p P o lic y v e r y b r ie f ly ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a t is a t p a g e 6 5 o f - o f y o u r b u n d le . I t is A n n e x u r e 2 . Yo u - y o u h a v e d e a l t i n y o u r a ff id a v i t w i t h t h e v a r i o u s c r it e r i a t h a t a r e a p p l i e d a n d th e o b j e c ts s o u g h t to b e a c h i e v e d a n d I d o n o t i n t e n d t o g o t o th o s e in t h e p o lic y. Can we begin just by con - with you c o n fir m i n g th a t t h e s a m e p o lic y w h ic h is d a t e d 2 0 0 0 a n d r e v is e d i n 2 0 0 1 w a s s t il l i n f o r c e in 2 0 1 2 ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : I t w a s . Ye s , b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o n e w p o l ic y. M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t t h e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON : I a m s o r r y. C a n y o u ju s t g e t t h e w i tn e s s t o c o n f ir m t h a t th e p o li c y s t a r ts fr o m w h a t p a g e t o w h a t p a g e ? A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s C h a ir. C a n y o u c o n f ir m th a t t h e p o l ic y b e g i n s a t p a g e 6 5 a n d t h a t i t e n d s t o g e t h e r w i t h it s a n n e x u r e s a t p a g e 11 6 ? S o r r y - 11 5 . M R P R E TO R I U S : 1 5 . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is a l l t h e a n n e x u r e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h a t i s a p o li c y o n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : S p o n s o r s h i p C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S p o n s o r s h i p s . O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : C o u ld - c o u l d w e t u r n t o p a g e 6 7 ? CHAIRPERSON : I am just looking … A D V M B I K IWA : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. Page 32 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e e x p e c t e d c o v e r p a g e t h a t w o u ld h a v e b i g w o r d s S p o n s o r s h i p P o lic y o r s o m e th i n g li k e t h a t. So - but - they are not t h e r e , b u t i t i s o k a y. T h e w i tn e s s h a s c o n f ir m e d . A D V M B I K IWA : C o u ld y o u tu r n t o p a g e 6 7 ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d a t C l a u s e 4 .1 - S c o p e o f A p p r o v a l . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : Sponsorship 10 C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p l a i n t o u s i n w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s a Agreement would need to go to the S p o n s o r s h ip Committee? M R P R E TO R I U S : A l l s p o n s o r s h ip s - a n y th in g a b o v e R 5 0 0 0 0 h a s to g o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e . A n y th in g b e l o w R 5 0 0 0 0 c a n b e a p p r o v e d b y th e r e l e v a n t e x e c u ti v e . H o w e v e r th e S p o n s o r s h ip C o m m i t t e e s h o u l d s t il l b e i n fo r m e d o f t h a t s p o n s o r s h ip t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d i f y o u t u r n t h e p a g e o n t o 6 8 . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K IWA : I t s a y s : “The …” 20 At A it says: “The Management Board may approve sponsorships u p to a n i n c l u d in g a n a m o u n t o f R 1 0 m ill i o n a n d t h a t s p o n s o r s h i p s e x c e e d i n g R 1 0 m il li o n m a y o n l y b e a p p r o v e d b y t h e E le c t r ic i ty C o u n c i l .” C a n y o u e x p l a in t o u s w h a t th e M a n a g e m e n t B o a r d a n d t h e Page 33 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 E l e c tr i c i ty C o u n c il a r e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : J a . T h a t w a s d u r i n g th e ti m e C h a i r w h e n Es k o m w a s s t il l t h e El e c t r ic i ty S u p p l y C o m m i s s i o n . S o w e h a d t h e E le c tr i c i ty C o u n c il w h i c h is t h e e q u iv a l e n t o f t h e B o a r d n o w a n d w e h a d t h e M a n a g e m e n t B o a r d w h ic h i s t h e e q u iv a le n t o f E x c o a t t h is s t a g e . J a . CHAIRPERSON : S o t h e p o li c y h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d d u r i n g t h o s e d a y s a n d i t h a s n o t b e e n a m e n d e d to a c c u r a t e ly r e fl e c t c u r r e n t s tr u c t u r e s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir it h a s b e e n a m e n d e d b u t i t w a s n e v e r s i g n e d o ff. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e r e i s - t h e r e is c u r r e n t ly a n e w p o l ic y i n p la c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : W h ic h i s n o t r e le v a n t t o th is p e r i o d o f - o f w h a t w e are talking … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : B u t s i n c e t h is p o li c y w e h a v e h a d m a n y a t t e m p ts to u p d a te t h e p o l ic y, b u t i t - f o r v a r i o u s r e a s o n s i t w a s n o t u p d a t e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d n o t s i g n e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h e n i n t h a t c a s e w e r e f e r to the last signed … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : P o lic y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Page 34 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K IWA : A n d c a n w e t u r n t o - to C l a u s e 4 .2 w h i c h s a y s : “The E x e c u t iv e provision within D ir e c to r s th e i r w il l groups ensure to fund budget those s p o n s o r s h i p i n i t ia t iv e s w h ic h t h e y w is h to i n v e s t i n .” M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : W h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f - o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t o f that provision? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o a lo t o f t h e - t h e E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r s a t th a t s ta g e - th e B o a r d - t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s w e r e t h e n r e fe r r e d to a s Ex e c u ti v e 10 D ir e c t o r s - h a d t h e - t h e n o ti o n t h a t t h e - th e M a r k e t in g D e p a r t m e n t w i ll h a v e th is m a s s iv e a m o u n t o f m o n e y f o r s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d w e o n ly s p o n s o r s - fu n d i n g f o r s p o n s o r s h i p s th a t w a s o f c o r p o r a te in t e r e s t . L ik e f o r in s ta n c e t h e E s k o m E x p o f o r Yo u n g S c i e n t is ts a n d s o o n . S o i n d i v i d u a l o r n i c h e s p o n s o r s h i p s t h a t p e o p l e w a n t e d t o d o th e y n e e d e d t o f u n d fr o m t h e ir o w n b u d g e ts . W e d id n o t c a r r y t h e b u d g e t a n d th a t i s w h a t t h a t r e f e r s to . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y a n d t h e n t h e l a s t a s p e c t o f t h e p o l ic y I w o u l d l ik e t o tu r n t o w h ic h - w h ic h i s n o t a d d r e s s e d i n y o u r a ff id a v i t i s a t p a g e 109. 20 T h a t is A n n e x u r e 5 t o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p P o li c y a n d i t is h e a d e d “ Me a s u r in g t h e S p o n s o r s h i p ” a n d it r u n s fr o m 1 0 9 t o 11 2 . C a n y o u j u s t e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t t h e - w h a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f th e s p o n s o r - t h e S p o n s o r s h i p P o l ic y a r e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e m o n i t o r in g a n d e v a l u a t io n o f t h e S p o n s o r s h i p A g r e e m e n ts t h a t E s k o m e n te r s i n to ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Well simply put it is if you have put X amount of m o n e y i n to a s p o n s o r s h i p p r o p e r ty y o u w o u l d w a n t t o s e e th e r e t u r n o n Page 35 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h e in v e s t m e n t . S o a s I’ v e m e n ti o n e d b e fo r e th e r e ’s a c o n tr a c t, a c o n tr a c t c o n ta in s c e r ta in p e r fo r m a n c e c l a u s e s f o r b o t h p a r t ie s a n d h a v e t h o s e p e r f o r m a n c e c l a u s e s b e e n m e t , h a v e w e r e a c h e d th e t a r g e t a u d ie n c e and so on. I t is a l w a y s a d v a n t a g e o u s f o r a n o r g a n i s a t io n t o h a v e a lo n g - te r m r e la t io n s h ip w i th a s p o n s o r s h ip p r o p e r ty. I f w e t a k e , in S o u t h A fr ic a , fo r i n s t a n c e , t h e r u g b y, t h e s o c c e r, t h e N e d b a n k g o l f c h a l l e n g e it s l o n g - t e r m r e la t io n s h ip s . S o i t ’s b e t t e r t o h a v e lo n g - te r m r e l a t i o n s h i p . 10 If s o if o n e s p o n s o r s s o m e t h i n g f o r t h e fir s t ti m e th e p e r f o r m a n c e a s s e s s m e n t t h a t o n e d o e s o n t h e s p o n s o r s h i p a f te r w a r d s is v e r y i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e it a ls o d e t e r m i n e s , d o w e w a n t to c o n ti n u e t o d o t h is o r n o t ? A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u , s o h a v i n g r e g a r d t o th is p o lic y a n d t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u ’ v e d e s c r i b e d , w o u l d i t b e u n u s u a l fo r E s k o m to e n t e r in t o a s p o n s o r s h i p a g r e e m e n t w i th o u t g o in g t h r o u g h t h e s p o n s o r s h i p Committee or the CAD MANCO as it was? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K I WA : It w o u l d b e u n u s u a l y e s . A n d w i th o u t a p p ly i n g a n y o f th e c r i t e r i a s e t o u t in t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p o l ic y ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : It w o u l d b e v e r y w r o n g . A n d w o u l d i t b e u n u s u a l , a f t e r e n t e r i n g i n to s u c h a n a g r e e m e n t f o r th e r e t o b e n o m o n i to r i n g o r e v a l u a ti o n a s t o th e s u c c e s s o r th e i m p a c t o f t h e s p o n s o r s h ip ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : It w o u l d b e u n u s u a l , n o t a n o r m . T h a n k y o u . I’ d li k e n o w t o t u r n to t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 36 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : A r e y o u a b l e t o i n d i c a te w h a t th e fr e q u e n c y m a y h a v e b e e n p r i o r t o th e N e w A g e e r a o f s u c h u n u s u a l fe a t u r e s , in o th e r w o r d s , d e v i a ti o n s fr o m w h a t y o u e x p e c t e d t o h a p p e n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir s i n c e I t o o k o v e r i n 2 0 0 7 /2 0 0 8 t h e r e h a s n o t b e e n a n y a p a r t fr o m t h e N e w A g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d p r i o r to t h a t w o u l d y o u h a v e k n o w n i f th e r e w e r e a n y b y v i r t u e o f t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u o c c u p i e d t h e n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e o u r f i n a n c ia l b u s in e s s p a r t n e r w o u ld d o a c h e c k o n t h e g e n e r a l l e d g e r a c c o u n t fo r s p o n s o r s h i p s s o w e 10 w i ll s e e if a n y b o d y i n th e business has spent any money on s p o n s o r s h i p , o n t h e g e n e r a l le d g e r a c c o u n t n u m b e r a n d t h e n t h o s e w o u ld b e a d d r e s s e d i f i t h a d n o t g o n e th r o u g h t h e p r o p e r p r o c e s s , it w o u ld a l s o t h e n c o n s ti t u te a c o n d o n a t io n i n s u c h i n s ta n c e s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d h a d – a r e y o u a b l e to r e c a ll a n y i n s t a n c e s p r i o r t o 2 0 0 7 w h e n th is h a d o c c u r r e d , n a m e l y t h e s e d e v i a ti o n s , t h e s e fa il u r e to do what would have been usual? M R P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON : 20 Chair I cannot recall. Yo u c a n ’ t r e c a ll ? M R P R E TO R I U S : No. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V M B I K IWA : M r Pr e to r i u s c a n w e t h e n t u r n t o , w h a t i s r e a l ly t h e f o c u s o f t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e w h ic h is t h e c o n tr a c ts e n te r e d in t o b e tw e e n E s k o m a n d t h e N e w A g e a n d C h a i r c a n I j u s t s a y t h a t d u r i n g th e c o u r s e o f t h is I’ ll b e r e f e r r i n g t o T N A a n d t h e N e w A g e i n t e r c h a n g e a b ly, T N A M e d i a w a s t h e e n ti ty t h a t o w n e d t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r. Page 37 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : M r P r e to r i u s w e p ic k t h a t u p fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t w h e r e y o u s a y t h a t y o u f ir s t b e c a m e a w a r e o f a n a p p r o a c h t o Es k o m b y T N A o n t h e 2 2 n d o f M a r c h 2 0 11 w h e n M r J a c q u e s R o u x c o n t a c te d M r C h o s e C h o e u . M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : 10 MR PRETORIUS: Ye s . W h o is M r C h o s e C h o e u ? H e w a s my D i v i s i o n a l E x e c u ti v e w h o I r e p o r t e d t o . And Mr Jacques Roux? M r J a c q u e s R o u x w a s f r o m – w e l l a l le g e d l y fr o m t h e N e w A g e a n d I s a y a l le g e d ly b e c a u s e h e ’s e m a il w a s n o t TN A i t w a s JIC. A D V M B I K I WA : O k a y c a n w e t u r n t o t h a t e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , i t ’s a t p a g e 11 7 i t is A n n e x u r e t h r e e t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d i f w e s t a r t fr o m t h e b o t to m M r J a c q u e s R o u x c o n ta c t s M r C h o s e C h o e u a n d a s y o u s a y Mr J a c q u e s R o u x ’s e m a i l a d d r e s s is J I C , d o y o u k n o w w h a t J IC is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 N o I w o u ld h a v e to g u e s s , I ’ m a s s u m i n g i t’s s o m e o r o th e r [i n d is t in c t] h o u s e . A D V M B I K IWA : And Mr Roux says, “ D e a r C h o s e , p u r s u a n t t o o u r te le p h o n ic c o n v e r s a ti o n w e r e q u e s t a m e e ti n g d u r i n g th e w e e k , i f p o s s ib l e t o in tr o d u c e the New Age Newspaper to you. I attach hereto a brief o v e r v ie w o f t h e p r o d u c t f o r y o u r p e r u s a l a n d a s k s f o r a Page 38 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 m e e ti n g a t y o u r c o n v e n i e n c e – a t Mr C h o e u ’s c o n v e n i e n c e ” . F u r th e r u p M r C h o e u t h e n f o r w a r d s t h a t t o M s R a i s a Wa d j a copying Jacques Roux and you and says, “ Pl e a s e f in d ti m e t o m e e t w i t h J a c q u e s R o u x ” . W h o is M s Wa d j a ? M R P R E TO R I U S : c o m m u n ic a ti o n s S h e ’s a c o l le a g u e , s h e r u n s t h e c o r p o r a te department which is internal and external c o m m u n ic a ti o n . A D V M B I K I WA : 10 A n d h o w d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d Mr C h o e u ’s e m a il to M s Wa d ja ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e l l b e c a u s e I w a s j u s t c o p ie d I a c c e p te d t h a t is f o r in f o r m a ti o n o n ly, M s Wa d ja h a d m e t w i t h J a c q u e s R o u x a n d t h e n r e a l is e d th a t t h is is n o t i n h e r a r e a , i t s h o u ld b e i n my a r e a , s o s h e r e fe r r e d M r R o u x to m e . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d c a n w e t u r n to t h e p r o p o s a l th a t ’s a t t a c h e d t o M r R o u x ’s a ffi d a v i t , th a t ’s a t p a g e 11 9 a n d I d o n ’ t i n t e n d t o g o t h r o u g h th e w h o le th i n g b u t i f w e c o u l d t u r n t o p a g e 1 2 4 a n d th e r e t h e p r o p o s a l says that the New Age was launched on the 6 th of December 2010 and t h a t i t is c u r r e n t ly d i s t r i b u t in g o v e r 1 0 0 0 0 0 c o p ie s p e r d a y. H o w w o u l d 20 y o u h a v e v e r i f ie d w h e t h e r t h a t s t a t e m e n t w a s tr u e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B IK I WA : We would have checked up with ABC. O k a y a n d w a s th e N e w A g e a c c r e d it e d w i th A B C ? No they were not. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y h a d e v e r a p p l ie d fo r a c c r e d i t a ti o n w i th A B C ? Page 39 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : Th e y – Mr H o w a i n f o r me d m e a t s o m e p o i n t t h a t t h e y h a v e b u t w e h a v e n o t – u n ti l i ts d e m is e w e h a v e n o t s e e n t h e c e r t if ic a te fr o m A B C . A D V M B I K I WA : O k a y, C h a ir w e h a v e o b t a i n e d a n a ff i d a v i t fr o m A B C w h ic h c o n f ir m s th a t T N A n e v e r a p p li e d f o r a c c r e d i t a ti o n , I c a n t a k e y o u t o t h a t a ffi d a v i t , i t ’s a t p a g e 7 5 2 , i t ’s i n B u n d l e M M 1 B , s o th e s e c o n d fi le c o n t a i n i n g M r P r e t o r i u s ’ A n n e x u r e s . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K IWA : 10 Ye s . A n d it s i m p ly c o n f ir m s th a t TN A n e v e r a p p l ie d f o r a n d w a s n e v e r g r a n t e d c e r t i fic a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : W e ’v e s i m p l y i n c l u d e d t h e a ff i d a v i t b e c a u s e w e d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h is t o b e a c o n te n t io u s p o i n t, b u t o f c o u r s e w e d o s o p r o v i s i o n a lly a n d i f a n y d is p u t e a r i s e s i n d u e c o u r s e w e w il l d e a l w i t h t h a t a p p r o p r i a te ly. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s t h a t ’s fi n e , s o I t h in k f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s i t ’s e n o u g h t o ju s t i d e n ti fy w h e r e i t i s t o b e f o u n d a n d y o u h a v e s a id w h a t is s a y s in s u b s t a n c e a n d w e d o n ’ t n e e d t o g o b e y o n d th a t . A D V M B I K IWA : 20 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : W e ll i f y o u w a n t t o r e a d , i t ’s a p a r a g r a p h o r s o m e t h i n g i t’s f i n e . A D V M B I K I WA : I t ’s n o t n e c e s s a r y C h a ir it li t e r a l ly s a y s w h a t I ’v e j u s t d e s c r ib e d . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K I WA : O k a y. M r P r e t o r i u s c a n w e t h e n r e tu r n t o y o u r a ff id a v i t , Page 40 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h a t ’s – a n d t o p a r a g r a p h 3 2 w h e r e y o u s a y t h a t a m e e t in g d id h a p p e n b e t w e e n – w e l l w i th M r R o u x , d o y o u k n o w if M s Wa d j a a t t e n d e d t h a t? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o s h e d id n ’t . A D V M B I K IWA : D o y o u k n o w w h o a tt e n d e d ? MR PRETORIUS: I w a s t h e r e , Mr J o h n M c Ar d l e w h o w o r k e d f o r m e a t t h a t ti m e a n d m y i m m e d i a te G M , M r Ts e h e p o M o r e m i . A D V M B I K I WA : S o r r y Mr Pr e t o r i u s I t h i n k y o u ’r e r e f e r r in g t o a s u b s e q u e n t m e e t in g t h a t I ’ m g o i n g t o g e t t o s h o r t ly, th is is a m e e ti n g t h a t f o l lo w e d i m m e d ia t e l y a f t e r t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e I ’ m r e fe r r i n g t o a n d 10 y o u in d ic a t e a t p a r a g r a p h 3 2 t h a t y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e a s s c h e d u l e d b u t y o u d id n o t a t te n d . MR PRETORIUS: I d o a p o lo g is e I d i d n o t – I c o u l d n o t a t t e n d t h e fi r s t m e e ti n g , I’ m n o t s u r e , I th in k i t w a s i n A p r il , I m a y h a v e b e e n o n l e a v e s o J o h n Mc A r d l e w o u l d h a v e s to o d i n f o r m e o r a c t e d o n m y b e h a l f a n d h e a t te n d e d t h a t m e e ti n g . A D V M B I K IWA : M r M c A r d l e a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s . A n d w h o is Mr M c A r d l e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 H e w a s th e C o r p o r a te M a r k e t in g M a n a g e r w h o r e p o r t e d t o m e a n d h a s s u b s e q u e n t ly r e ti r e d fo r fo u r y e a r s a g o , t h r e e years ago. A D V M B I K I WA : Okay and now we can move on to the subsequent m e e ti n g t h a t o c c u r r e d w h ic h y o u d e s c r ib e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 3 a n d y o u s a y t h a t M r M c A r d l e w a s c o n ta c t e d b y a T N A r e p r e s e n ta t iv e . C a n y o u d e s c r ib e w h a t to o k p l a c e a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? Page 41 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : I t w a s T N A a n d th e s a m e p r o p o s a l t h a t w e ’ v e ju s t lo o k e d a t f o r t h e N e w A g e b r e a k f a s t a n d t h a t E s k o m s h o u ld b e p a r t o f t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : I ’ m s o r r y I m a y h a v e m i s s e d th is , c a n y o u c o v e r w h o r e q u e s t e d t h e m e e t i n g , w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d t h e n b e f o r e g o in g i n to t h e c o n t e n t s o f th e d is c u s s i o n o f th e m e e ti n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : O f c o u r s e C h a ir. T h e r e q u e s t c a m e f r o m TN A t o h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h E s k o m a n d t h e o b j e c t iv e o f t h e m e e t i n g w a s t o d is c u s s th e p r o p o s a l . 10 CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y th a n k y o u . A n d w h a t w a s t h e p r o p o s a l a t t h a t p o i n t? M R P R E TO R I U S : It was a proposal that we had looked at so it was for – s p e c if ic a l ly f o r t h e N e w A g e b r e a k f a s ts t h a t th e y w a n te d Es k o m t o s p o n s o r. A D V M B I K I WA : A n d c a n y o u j u s t d e s c r i b e f o r u s b r o a d ly w h a t t h e s e breakfasts were? M R P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON : O k a y s o th e b r e a k f a s t s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . I’ m s o r r y I k n o w y o u s a i d M r M b ik i w a y o u ’ r e n o t g o i n g to s p e n d m u c h ti m e o n t h e p r o p o s a l b u t i f t h a t ’s t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t 20 w a s th e s u b j e c t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n a t t h e m e e t in g l e t u s h a v e t h e i m p o r t a n t f e a tu r e s o f t h e p r o p o s a l b e f o r e w e g o i n t o t h e m e e ti n g . I a s s u m e th a t t h e p r o p o s a l w a s g iv e n to y o u a h e a d o f t h e m e e ti n g o r n o t r e a l ly ? MR P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir I don’t a s s u m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 42 of 170 recall but I would 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : O h is y o u r r e c o l le c t io n th a t y o u g o t it a t t h e m e e ti n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K I WA : C h a i r I r e a l ly c a n n o t r e c a l l , my b o s s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . C h a ir c a n I tr y to a s s is t ? Ye s . T h e p r o p o s a l t h a t I r e fe r r e d y o u t o a m o m e n t a g o is in f a c t a p r o p o s a l o n ly f o r a d v e r t is i n g i t – th a t p r o p o s a l , a s f a r a s I u n d e r s t a n d d o e s n ’t c o n t a i n a n y p r o p o s a l f o r a n y b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s ts . CHAIRPERSON : 10 ADV O h o k a y. M B I K I WA : It was a proposal – if you are in t e r e s te d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : N o w e c a n l o o k a t i t a t th e t i m e t h a t y o u th i n k is r ig h t , I t h o u g h t th a t i t w a s g o i n g to b e t h e s u b je c t o f th e d i s c u s s i o n o f t h e m e e ti n g t h a t h e ’s g o in g to n o w. A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s , C h a ir a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e t h e r e w a s n o p r o p o s a l c ir c u l a t e d in r e s p e c t o f b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t s b e f o r e th a t m e e t i n g . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K I WA : O k a y, n o th a t ’s fi n e . B u t I d o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t f o r m s – th a t b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s f o r m e d p a r t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n a t th a t m e e t i n g . 20 CHAIRPERSON : N o o k a y t h a t’s f i n e , l e t’s g o a h e a d , y o u s a id t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s t o d is c u s s a p r o p o s a l? M R P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON : J a a p r o p o s a l fr o m t h e N e w A g e . New Age? MR PRETORIUS: S o m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s , a s – th a t i t w a s t o d is c u s s and a d v e r ti s i n g then when Jacques Page 43 of 170 Roux came it was 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a d v e r t is in g a n d th e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s o k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d s o r r y w h e r e w e l e f t o ff M r Pr e to r i u s , i s I a s k e d y o u ju s t to g iv e a s o r t o f b r o a d d e s c r i p ti o n o f w h a t t h e s e b u s i n e s s breakfasts were? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o t h e p r o p o s a l i n c l u d e d a b r e a k f a s t a t o n e o f th e h o t e l s in th e c i ty w i th S A B C ’s m o r n in g li v e p r o g r a m m e b e i n g b r o a d c a s t liv e fr o m t h e v e n u e t o – f o r a n a d d i ti o n a l h o u r s o t h e y a r e fr o m s ix t o e i g h t s o i t w a s fr o m s e v e n t o n i n e , m o r e s p e c i f ic a l ly th e b u s i n e s s 10 breakfasts. T h e T N A t h e n s o l d tic k e ts t o t h e e v e n t , s o p e o p le w h o w a n t e d t o a t t e n d e it h e r h a d t o b u y c o r p o r a te t a b l e s o r s in g le s e a ts a t t h e s e e v e n t s a n d t h e y w o u ld t h e n , a c c o r d i n g t o N e w A g e , t h e y w o u l d a ls o t h e n p r o m o t e t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t t h r o u g h th e ir n e w s p a p e r, t h e New Age and allegedly SABC would also promote it on radio and on t h e ir w e b s it e th e y w o u l d b e – p r o m o te a n d a d v e r ti s e t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t w i t h w h o e v e r t h e c e le b r i ty o r Mi n is te r o r w h o e v e r i t w a s w o u ld b e a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d s e l l t ic k e ts f o r th a t . A D V M B IK I WA : A n d w h a t w a s i t th a t i t w a s b e in g p r o p o s e d , E s k o m w o u ld d o ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : It w a s p r o p o s e d t h a t E s k o m w o u l d s p o n s o r t h e b r e a k f a s t , i n it i a l ly fo r R 1 m il li o n a b r e a k f a s t . A D V M B I K I WA : Okay thank you. C h a ir I s e e t h a t w e h a v e r e a c h e d q u a r t e r p a s t e l e v e n , i t m ig h t b e a n a p p r o p r ia t e ti m e f o r t h e te a adjournment. CHAIRPERSON : W e ’l l t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t Page 44 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 half past eleven, we adjourn. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M b i k i w a y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr Pr e t o r i u s i f w e c a n p i c k u p w h e r e w e l e f t o ff w h ic h w a s t h e m e e t in g t h a t y o u a n d M r M a g a r d il [ ? ] h a d w it h M r R o u x a n d y o u s a y t h a t t h e p r o p o s a l w a s fo r b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t s w h ic h E s k o m w o u ld s p o n s o r a t a R 1 m i ll i o n a b r e a k fa s t . H o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d to t h a t p r o p o s a l a t th e m e e ti n g ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : I d e c li n e d it i m m e d ia t e l y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h y ? M R P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e t h e y d id n o t h a v e t h e c i r c u l a ti o n . They w e r e a n e w p u b l ic a ti o n a n d I a m – I – o n e w o u l d n o t – w e l l m o s t m a r k e t e r s w il l n o t t a k e t h a t k in d o f m o n e y a n d p u t i t i n t o a p u b l ic a ti o n t h a t d o e s n o t h a v e a tr a c k r e c o r d . A l s o i f y o u l o o k a t i t fr o m a s p o n s o r s h i p p o i n t o f v ie w i f y o u w a n t e d t o s p o n s o r s h i p i n E s k o m o n e o f t h e c r i t e r ia i n w h ic h w e m e a s u r e h a s t h is s p o n s o r s h i p b e e n – b e e n d o n e b e f o r e a n d h a v e th is p e o p l e h a d s u c c e s s w i t h t h i s s p o n s o r s h ip ? B e c a u s e w e c a n n o t a s s o c i a te a n y b r a n d n a m e i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h ic h 20 b r a n d b u t i n t h i s c a s e E s k o m w i th s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s g o i n g t o b e a b s o l u t e d is a s t e r. S o if t h e r e is n o p r o v e n t r a c k r e c o r d t h e n w e w o u ld n o t – w e w o u l d d e f in i te ly n o t g e t in v o lv e d . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d d i d y o u e x p r e s s t h o s e c o n c e r n s t o Mr C h o e u y o u r e x e c u tiv e – y o u r – th e D iv is io n a l H e a d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s w e g a v e h i m f e e d b a c k fr o m th e m e e ti n g o n – Page 45 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w i t h Mr R o u x . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d h o w d id h e r e s p o n d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e h e a g r e e d w i t h u s . T h e r e w a s – I c o n s i d e r e d t h e m a t t e r c lo s e d a n d t h e n l a te r t h e r e w a s a n in s tr u c ti o n t h a t w e w il l e n t e r i n t o a n a g r e e m e n t . I am not sure if I am jumping ahead. A D V M B I K IWA : N o I w a s – I w a n te d t o g e t e x a c tly t h e r e . M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : B u t I s e e t h e C h a ir h a s a q u e s t io n . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s b u t a r e w e s t il l a t t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u w e r e t e ll i n g u s a b o u t o r h a v e y o u g o n e b e y o n d t h e m e e ti n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e h a v e g o n e b e y o n d t h e m e e t in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I d i d n o t h e a r – I d i d n o t t h i n k t h a t w h a t I h e a r d w a s a fu ll c o n t e n t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n a t t h e m e e t in g . Th e r e w a s a p r o p o s a l f o r th e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t r i g h t? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A l s o f o r a d v e r t is i n g i n t h e N e w A g e ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d i t w a s a t t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e y o u t o o k t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u h a v e j u s t d e s c r i b e d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W h a t m y p o s i ti o n w a s – s o r r y C h a ir I j u s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m e e t in g . M R P R E TO R I U S : A t th e m e e t i n g ? Page 46 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : Wa s th a t n o w e w il l n o t ta k e y o u u p o n y o u r o ffe r o r y o u r p r o p o s a l b u t I d id s a y b e c a u s e y o u a r e a n e w e n tr a n t in t o t h e m a r k e t t h a t w e w il l p u t – g iv e s o m e a d v e r t i s in g b u d g e t t o w a r d s t h e N e w Age. I d id n o t c o n fir m a n y a m o u n t a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e b e c a u s e I n e e d e d t o d i s c u s s i t w i th t h e t e a m . understand that. J u s t m a y b e f o r th e C h a ir t o A l t h o u g h I a m t h e H e a d o f M a r k e ti n g th e r e i s M a r k e t in g P r o je c t M a n a g e r s th a t e x e c u t e e a c h o n e o f t h e s e s tr a te g i c m a r k e t in g i n it i a t iv e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d a s a m a n a g e r I d o n o t p r e s c r ib e t o t h e m w h a t p u b lic a ti o n s th e y n e e d t o g o i n . I a m a s s u m in g t h e y a r e q u a li f ie d a n d t h e y d o – t h e y m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n s b a s e d o n t h i s . I w i ll c h e c k i t f r o m ti m e to ti m e a n d I w il l s t e p in a n d i f t h e y d o n o t m e e t t h e ir t a r g e t s t h e n o b v i o u s l y th e y g e t p e n a l is e d f o r t h a t. So I would not have made a c o m m i t m e n t to M r R o u x a t th a t m e e t in g w i t h r e g a r d s t o a d v e r t – a n y a d v e r t is in g a m o u n t . S o th a t w a s t h e – i n my o p i n i o n t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d t h e f e e d b a c k b e c a u s e M r … CHAIRPERSON : 20 New Age people? A n d in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t w h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s e , th e What did they say to that? I f y o u a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r. M R P R E TO R I U S : I a m – C h a ir i f I w a s t o g i v e y o u m y o p in i o n i t w o u l d be … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I c a n n o t r e a l ly r e m e m b e r. Page 47 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : I t h in k I r e m e m b e r b u t I a m n o t s u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e r e w a s s i m p l y n o a g r e e m e n t . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . A n d – a n d t h e n o n th e b r e a k f a s t – o n t h e b r e a k f a s t s h o w w h a t – w h a t d id y o u c o n v e y t o t h e m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I s a i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E T O R I U S : I s a i d a b s o l u t e ly n o – n o w e w il l n o t a n d w e d i d n o t 10 commit to anything. CHAIRPERSON : A n d d id t h e y s e e m t o a c c e p t t h a t o r y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t th e ir a t ti t u d e w a s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : J a I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e – w h a t th e – it w a s j u s t Jacques there. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t – fr o m th e N e w A g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR PRETORIUS: So we said no. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r r e a lly w h a t h is r e a c ti o n w a s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t th e r e w a s j u s t n o a g r e e m e n t . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u i n d ic a te d t h a t i n p r i n c i p le Es k o m c o u ld g iv e t h e m s o m e a d v e r t is in g i n s o f a r a s t h e y a r e a n e w p u b l ic a ti o n . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u d i d n o t c o m m i t y o u r s e l f to a n y a m o u n t ? Page 48 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d M r P r e t o r iu s a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e e a r l ie r y o u s a i d t h a t – t h a t th e w a y in w h ic h E s k o m w o u ld o ft e n d e a l w i t h s m a l l e r p u b l ic a t i o n s o r n e w e n tr a n ts w a s t o o ff e r s m a ll e r d e a ls ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s a b s o l u t e ly. A D V M B I K IWA : S o l e t u s n o w tu r n to w h a t h a p p e n s a f te r t h e m e e t in g . CHAIRPERSON : 10 S o – I a m s o r r y M r M b i k i w a . S o a t th e m e e t i n g y o u h a v e n o r e c o l le c ti o n w h e t h e r t h e N e w A g e d e l e g a t i o n tr i e d t o p e r s u a d e E s k o m th a t t h e r e w a s v a l u e fo r E s k o m in s p o n s o r i n g th e b r e a k f a s t shows? M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir t h e y d i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id tr y ? M R P R E TO R I U S : B u t th e y w e r e n o t – th e y d i d n o t c o n v i n c e m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : I – I … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t s e e w h e r e t h e v a l u e – w h a t v a l u e t h e r e w o u ld b e ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : J a I c o u ld n o t s e e a n d I h a v e b e e n a m a r k e t e r fo r almost 30 years. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d fr o m w h a t t h e y w e r e o ff e r i n g . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R P R E TO R I U S : I t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e to m e . Page 49 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : W h e r e w o u l d m y R 1 m i ll i o n b e g o i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : I f y o u s e l li n g t ic k e ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr P r e to r i u s y o u th e n s a y t h a t y o u c o m m u n ic a te t h e s e c o n c e r n s t o M r C h o e u ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e ll i t w a s n o t c o n c e r n s a t th a t p o in t in t i m e . I t w a s feedback. 10 If y o u r e c a l l t h e e m a il t h a t w a s s e n t to R a h e e s a a n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n t ly t o m e a s m y – I w a s r e p o r ti n g t o Ts h e p o M o r e m i , M r Ts h e p o M o r e m i w h o w a s t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r w h o r e p o r te d t o M r Choeu. At that point I gave feedback to Mr Choe u and said we have m e t w i t h N e w A g e a s p e r y o u r i n s tr u c ti o n a n d w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o ta k e t h e m u p o n t h e ir o ff e r b u t w e w ill o ff e r t h e m s o m e a d v e r t is in g . A n d I a n d I a m – m y – I c a n n o t a s s u m e f o r M r C h o e u b u t I a s s u m e d t h a t t h is w a s t h e e n d o f t h e s t o r y. B u t i t w a s n o t. A D V M B I K I WA : A n d th e n y o u – f r o m p a r a g r a p h 3 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t fr o m p a g e 11 y o u s a y t h a t y o u c o m m u n i c a t e d th e s e c o n c e r n s o r n o t c o n c e r n s t h is f e e d b a c k t o M r C h o e u a n d t h a t h e t o ld y o u t o c o n c l u d e 20 t h e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e a n i n s tr u c t io n h a d c o m e a n d t h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e g e t t in g to n e x t . M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. S o a f t e r th e – t h e f e e d b a c k m e e ti n g to M r C h o e u t h e r e w a s – t h e N e w A g e h a d n o t g o n e a w a y. T h e N e w A g e h a d m e t w i t h M r C h o e u i n h i s o ffic e – N a z e e m H o w a a n d t h e r e w a s o n e o th e r p e r s o n – h e r n a m e – Page 50 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : W e ll y o u c a n l o o k a t i n y o u r s t a te m e n t if t h a t w i ll r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y. M R P R E TO R I U S : J a t h e M r H o w a a n d Ms I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e s e c o n d p e r s o n ’s n a m e th a t w a s t h e r e – t h e y h a d m e t w it h M r C h o e u a n d I w a s i n v it e d t o t h e m e e t in g a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n w a s a b o u t t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s ts a g a i n . I a g a i n e x p r e s s e d m y c o n c e r n s a r o u n d t h is . I w a s a s k e d to l e a v e a n d t h e n M r C h o e u – I – w e h a d th e d is c u s s i o n w h e r e I r a is e d t h e c o n c e r n s a n d h e s a i d t o m e , Pi e t e r i t i s a n in s t r u c t i o n . I t c o m e s fr o m t h e M i n is t e r. B r i a n D a m e s h a d t o ld u s th a t 10 y o u w il l d o th is . A n d I a r r o g a n t ly … CHAIRPERSON : L e t u s g o b a c k t o t h e m e e ti n g . W h o a s k e d y o u to le a v e th e m e e ti n g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : M r H o w a fr o m t h e N e w A g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w a s i t h i s p la c e t o a s k y o u t o le a v e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o t i n m y o p in io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d M r C h o e u h e d id n o t p r o t e s t a t t h a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . And are you able to say what may have p r o m p te d M r H o w a t o w a n t y o u to le a v e ? 20 MR PRETORIUS: I c a n o n ly a s s u m e C h a ir th a t is w a s b e c a u s e I w a s a g a in s t t h e b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s t a n d I d i d n o t w a n t t o s p e n d t h e m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON : Yo u h a d a lr e a d y e x p r e s s e d t h a t v i e w b y – w h e n h e asked you to leave? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m e e t in g h a d – a t t h a t s t a g e h a d Mr C h o e u a l s o Page 51 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 e x p r e s s e d h i s v i e w w h e r e h e s to o d o n t h e is s u e o r n o t y e t ? Or you cannot remember? M R P R E TO R I U S : Mr C h o e u ’s s ty l e h a s a l w a y s b e e n th a t t h i s is t h e H e a d o f M a r k e ti n g a n d h e w i ll m a k e t h e d e c is i o n a n d h e w i ll g i v e y o u feedback. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o I w a s g iv in g fe e d b a c k a n d d i r e c t ly a ft e r t h a t M r H o w a ju s t l o o k e d a t m e a n d t h e n h e s a i d t o Mr C h o e u i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t w o r d s . W e h a v e o t h e r b u s i n e s s 10 t o d is c u s s . A n d t h e n h e t u r n e d t o m e a n d h e s a i d , M r Pr e t o r i u s y o u m a y e x c u s e y o u r s e lf . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. And you say that Mr Choeu c o m m u n ic a te d to y o u th a t th e i n s tr u c t io n h a d c o m e fr o m t h e M i n is te r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . W e ll th a t w a s i m p l ie d . S o it c a m e f r o m t h e to p a n d th e – th e r e w a s s u b s e q u e n t e m a i ls w h e r e s o m e o f t h e Mi n is t e r s s t a ff w a s c o p ie d o n t h e N e w A g e d i s c u s s i o n s th a t w e w e r e h a v in g a n d s o m e o f th o s e s t a ff m e m b e r s G m a i l a c c o u n t s w e r e u s e d . S o it w a s c le a r to m e th a t t h i s w a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n a n d M r C h o e u h a d s p o k e n t o M r 20 D a m e s a n d Mr D a m e s h a d s a i d t h e M i n is t e r s a id y o u w il l d o th is . A D V M B I K I WA : S o M r C h o e u c o m m u n ic a t e d t o y o u t h a t M r D a m e s h a d c o m m u n ic a te d to h i m th a t th e M in is t e r h a d s a i d th a t y o u w ill d o t h is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g y e s . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s t h e M in is t e r a t t h e t i m e ? Page 52 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : M i n is t e r M a lu s i G ig a b a . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V M B I K I WA : C h a ir a s – a s M s H o f m e y r r e f e r r e d t o e a r l i e r w e h a v e r e c e i v e d a n a ffi d a v i t fr o m M r G i g a b a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : I n r e s p o n s e t o th e 3 . 3 N o tic e th a t h e r e c e i v e d . C a n I a s k y o u to g o t o th e a ff i d a v i t ? I t i s a t p a g e 7 7 6 i n F il e M M 1 b . M R P R E TO R I U S : 7 7 ? A D V M B I K I WA : 10 6 . 7 7 6 . A n d i f I c a n a s k y o u to t u r n i n p a r t ic u l a r to p a g e 7 7 8 a t p a r a g r a p h 7 b e f o r e th a t M r G ig a b a e ff e c ti v e ly s u m m a r is e s t h e a l le g a ti o n t h a t is m a d e . A n d h e s a y s : “ I d e n y th a t I e v e r g a v e a n y s u c h i n s tr u c t io n . S u c h w o u ld a m o u n t to m e a s a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f a s t a t e s h a r e h o l d e r i n te r f e r in g w i th th e o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s o f E s k o m w h i c h I n e v e r d i d .” W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t? M R P R E TO R I U S : I d i s a g r e e w it h th e H o n o u r a b l e M i n is t e r b e c a u s e h a d in t e r fe r e d i n th e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s in e s s o n m a n y o c c a s i o n s o n m a n y o th e r t h in g s a s w e l l. S o th e – th e r e w o u l d b e n o p l a u s i b l e r e a s o n f o r 20 M r D a m e s o r Mr C h o e u t o fo r c e m e t o g o in t o a c o n tr a c t o th e r t h a n a n in s t r u c t i o n f r o m s o m e b o d y h i g h e r u p . A n d M r – th e H o n o u r a b l e M i n is t e r is – i s s a y i n g th a t h e d e n i e s t h a t h e g a v e s u c h a n i n s tr u c ti o n s a y in g t h a t w o u l d b e i n te r f e r in g w it h t h e o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s o f E s k o m w h ic h I n e v e r d id . T h a t s t a te m e n t i s n o t tr u e b e c a u s e M r G i g a b a h a d o ft e n w h e n – e s p e c i a l ly w h e n w e w e n t t h r o u g h l o a d s h e d d i n g a n d Page 53 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 v a r io u s o th e r t h i n g s Mr G i g a b a w a s t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : Is – is y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t y o u c a n n o t s a y fo r s u r e w h e t h e r h e g a v e th e i n s tr u c t io n s th a t w e r e t o l d a b o u t – th e i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e t o ld a b o u t b u t th a t y o u h a v e n o r e a s o n n o t to b e li e v e w h a t y o u w e r e t o ld b y Mr C h o e u w h o s a i d h e h a d b e e n t o l d b y M r D a m e s t h a t t h e M i n is t e r h a d g iv e n i n s tr u c t io n ? B u t t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e M i n is t e r s a y s h e w o u ld n e v e r i n t e r f e r e in o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s y o u s a y o n t h a t o n e y o u s a y t h a t is n o t tr u e , t h a t c a n n o t b e tr u e b e c a u s e y o u k n o w o f m a n y i n s t a n c e s w h e r e h e 10 in t e r fe r e d i n o p e r a t i o n a l m a t t e r s . Is t h a t – is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g o r a r e y o u s a y i n g s o m e th i n g d i ff e r e n t ? MR PRETORIUS: I a m – C h a ir t h a t i s w h a t I a m s a y in g is ju s t th a t t h e r e w a s a lo t o f in t e r f e r e n c e fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s s in c e t h e lo a d s h e d d in g t h a t s t a r t e d o n t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 0 8 . S o th e D P E o r D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r i s e s h a d o ft e n c o m e t o t h e – to E s k o m a n d t e ll i n g E s k o m o r i n s tr u c t in g E s k o m t o d o c e r t a i n things. S o y o u lo o k a t th e c o a l c o n tr a c t s w h ic h w a s a l s o d is c u s s e d . S o m e o f th e p r o c u r e m e n t i s s u e s a n d s o o n w a s d is c u s s e d w i t h th e M i n is t e r a n d th e M i n is t e r h a d b e e n p a r t o f t h e d i s c u s s io n s . 20 CHAIRPERSON : A n d w h e n y o u ta lk – w h e n y o u s a y M i n i s t e r i n t h i s c a s e y o u s til l r e fe r r i n g t o Mr G i g a b a ? M R P R E TO R I U S : M r G i g a b a y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r P r e t o r i u s c a n w e t h e n g o – m o v e o n t o p a r a g r a p h 8 o f h is a ffi d a v i t ? Page 54 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : W h e r e h e s a y s t h a t : “ I t a ls o d o e s m a k e s e n s e th a t th e f a c t t h a t I w a s s c h e d u l e d t o b e a g u e s t s p e a k e r a t a T N A b r e a k fa s t o f 1 2 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 c o u l d s e r v e a s a r e a s o n f o r th e T N A c o n tr a c t to b e c o n c l u d e d . A c c o r d i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 3 7 o f t h e P r e t o r i a s t a t e m e n t I h a d a lr e a d y a g r e e d to b e the guest speaker and clearly this had nothing to do w i t h th e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e T N A c o n tr a c t. I was not e v e n a w a r e o f t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s b e t w e e n E s k o m a n d 10 T N A a n d o r th e S A B C w h i c h w a s t h e b r o a d c a s t o f t h e T N A b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s ts .” W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t? MR P R E TO R I U S : n e g o ti a ti o n s . Well th e M i n is t e r was not aware that this R e m e m b e r th a t I p u s h e d b a c k o n th e c o n tr a c t w i t h th e N e w A g e a n d t h e n w e h a d to c o n c l u d e t h e c o n tr a c t . S o t h e M i n i s te r w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e t h a t w e a r e i n t h e p r o c e s s o f n e g o ti a ti n g t h e fir s t c o n tr a c t a n d t h a t w e w e r e i n t a l k s w i th t h e N e w A g e . S e c o n d ly t h e – th e i n s tr u c t io n c a m e t h a t h e is t h e g u e s t s p e a k e r a n d w e s h o u l d 20 own that breakfast. S o – b e c a u s e t h e M i n is t e r c a n t a lk a b o u t e n e r g y e ffic i e n c y a n d E s k o m a n d t h e 4 9 M c a m p a ig n in th a t s e s s io n . S o y e s . T h e f a c t t h a t h e a lr e a d y s a i d y e s t o b e th e g u e s t s p e a k e r h a d n o b e a r in g o n o u r d e c is i o n b e c a u s e th e d e c is io n o r t h e i n s tr u c t io n h a d a lr e a d y c o m e t h a t y o u w i ll d o i t. A D V M B I K I WA : I n d e e d a n d Mr P r e t o r iu s d o I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t ly a n d Page 55 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h is i s – I a m j u m p in g a h e a d a li t tl e b i t b u t – b u t – th a t t h e c o n tr a c t f o r t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t t h a t E s k o m s i g n e d w a s s ig n e d o n t h e 1 3 A p r il b u t in f a c t o p e r a t e d r e t r o s p e c t iv e ly fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e m o n t h ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : S o t h a t i t d i d i n c lu d e Mr G ig a b a ’s … M R P R E TO R I U S : I t d id . A D V M B I K IWA : C o n – b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I t d i d y e s . A D V M B I K I WA : 10 Can we then move to paragraph 39 and 40 of your a ffi d a v i t a n d t h i s is w h e r e y o u b e g in to ta l k a b o u t t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e fir s t c o n tr a c t w i t h TN A . T h is i s a t p a g e 11 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d y o u s a y t h a t M r C h o e u c o n t a c t e d y o u a s k i n g y o u t o m e e t w i t h Mr R o u x t o q u o te “ c l o s e th e d e a l” . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : C a n w e g o to t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ? T h a t is a t p a g e 1 3 1 o f t h e s a m e b u n d le . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B IK I WA : 20 A n d I w o u l d li k e u s t o s t a r t fr o m th e e a r li e s t p a r t o f t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h ic h a p p e a r s a t th e b o t to m o f p a g e 1 3 3 . A n d a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 3 3 M r C h o e u e m a i ls y o u a n d M r R o u x a n d s a y s : “ Pl e a s e m e e t w i th J a c q u e s s o y o u c o u l d c lo s e th e d e a l o n th e T N A 4 9 M b r e a k fa s ts a s p a r t o f t h e M i n is t e r ’s N a ti o n a l c a m p a i g n . ” C a n y o u e x p l a i n w h a t th e – w h a t 4 9 M is a n d t h e M i n i s te r ’s N a t i o n a l Page 56 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 campaign? MR PRETORIUS: S o 4 9 M a t t h e ti m e o f – o f t h e l o a d s h e d d i n g t h e r e w a s v e r y – E s k o m ’s r e p u t a ti o n t o o k a h u g e k n o c k a n d th e r e w a s a ls o v e r y li t tl e c r e d ib il i ty w i th in t h e b r a n d . S o w i th th e c r e a t iv e a g e n c y a t t h a t ti m e w e s a t d o w n a n d w e d e v e lo p e d a s tr a te g y h o w c o u l d w e p u t s o m e t h i n g b e tw e e n E s k o m a n d t h e p u b lic ? T h a t c a n ta lk to t h e p u b li c b e c a u s e w e s ti ll n e e d e d t o t a l k t o t h e p u b lic to s a v e e l e c tr ic i ty a n d s o on. S o t h e a g e n c y c a m e u p a t t h a t s t a g e w e w e r e 4 9 m i ll io n S o u t h A fr ic a n s i n th e c o u n tr y a n d t h a t i s t h e 4 9 M c a m p a ig n – t h a t is w h a t i t 10 s t a n d – s t o o d f o r. T h e D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t H o n o u r a b le M a l e m a – a g – n o s o r r y M o tl a n t h e t h a t t h e – t h e o p e n i n g o r th e l a u n c h o f th e c a m p a i g n . S o w e w a n te d th e D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c e t o ta k e – b e t h e c h a m p i o n o f t h e c a m p a ig n a n d h e to o k t h e l e a d in t h a t . Th e M in is t e r p l a y e d a r o l e i n t h e 4 9 M c a m p a i g n in th a t I w a s a l s o a s k e d a n d it i s n o t p a r t o f t h is q u e s ti o n i n g b u t I w a s a ls o a s k e d o r in s tr u c t e d to i n c lu d e L S M 1 , 2 , 3 a n d 4 in t h e c a m p a ig n . A n d w e w e r e s p e c i fi c a ll y t a lk i n g t o h i g h e n d u s e r s s o in th e r e s i d e n ti a l m a r k e t s s o w e w e r e ta lk in g t o L S M 8 , 9 a n d 1 0 w h e r e t h e p e o p l e h a v e th e m o n e y t o w a s t e e l e c tr ic i ty. They put u n d e r fl o o r h e a t in g a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . S o o u r p r i m a r y m a r k e t w a s 20 n o t L S M 1 , 2 , 3 a n d 4 . B u t t h e M i n is t e r w a n t e d to – t o m e e t w it h t h e s e p e o p l e a n d w e h a d o r g a n is e d v a r i o u s r o a d s h o w s t o v a r io u s tr a d i t io n a l t o w n s h i p s w i t h i n th e c o u n tr y t o p r o m o t e 4 9 M . A n d t h a t is w h y t h i s is p a r t o f t h e M in is t e r ’s t h e c o m m e n t o f th e M in is te r ’s N a t i o n a l c a m p a ig n . CHAIRPERSON : Please enlighten me Mr Pretorius on LSM what – what … Page 57 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : S o r r y C h a ir m y a p o l o g i e s . CHAIRPERSON : I do not know much abou t it as you might think I do. M R P R E TO R I U S : M y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : L S M i s L i v i n g L i f e s ty le M e a s u r e m e n t s o i t is a n o r g a n i – i t i s d o n e b y S A R F t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n R e s e a r c h F o u n d a t io n . T h e y m e a s u r e t h e v a r i o u s a s p e c t s o f th e p o p u l a ti o n . S o L S M 1 w o u l d b e th e p o o r e s t o f t h e p o o r. So they are able if you by the LSM d o c u m e n t a ti o n y o u w il l b e a b l e t o d e te r m i n e w h e r e t h e y l iv e , h o w th e y 10 liv e , w h a t is th e i r a v e r a g e i n c o m e , w h a t t h e y o w n a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . S o a n d t h e n g o i n g t o th e m i d d le c l a s s e s is 5 , 6 , 7 a n d j a 4 , 5 , a n d 6 t h e m i d d l e c l a s s e s w h a t t h e y o w n , w h a t e l e c tr i c i ty c o m p o – e q u i p m e n t th e y h a v e i n th e i r h o u s e a n d s o o n a n d th a t is w h y t h a t w a s q u i t e i m p o r ta n t to us. S o w h e n w e d i d o u r r e s e a r c h a s t o t h e c o n s u m p ti o n t h e c o n s u m p ti o n w a s o b v i o u s ly i n – s i t ti n g i n L S M 8 , 9 a n d 1 0 w h o a r e t h e – t h e w e a l t h y p e o p l e i n a c o u n tr y. CHAIRPERSON : Okay no thank you. A D V M B I K I WA : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e a r l i e r p o i n t th e – t h e – b e c a u s e h i g h i n c o m e u s e r s t e n d t o b e h i g h e r u s e r s o f e l e c tr i c i ty t h e – 20 4 9 M w a s in i ti a l ly d ir e c te d a t t h e h ig h e r i n c o m e e a r n e r s a c c o r d i n g t o th e – t o th e L S M m e a s u r e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e 4 9 M c a m p a i g n a s b y i ts n a m e w a s t o i n c l u d e t h e w h o le o f S o u t h A f r i c a t o c r e a t e a n a ti o n a l m o v e m e n t i n o r d e r t o d e c la r e w a r o n e le c tr ic i ty w a s t a g e . T h a t w a s th e m a in a i m b u t th e p r i m a r y t a r g e t a u d i e n c e f o r t h e la u n c h o f t h e c a m p a i g n w a s L S M 8 , 9 a n d 1 0 . Page 58 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K I WA : O k a y. If w e c a n th e n r e tu r n t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e that we were at at page 133. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. M r P r e to r i u s I a m j u s t in t e r e s t e d i n th e – in t h e h ig h u s e o f e le c t r ic i ty b y t h e h ig h in c o m e e a r n e r s . W o u l d th e r e – w h a t w o u l d b e t h e d i ff e r e n c e I m e a n a l o t o f p e o p l e in w h a t y o u m a y r e g a r d a s y o u w o u l d p u t a t L S M – l o w L S M ’s y o u k n o w h a v e t e l e v is io n s e ts t h e r e a n d t h e y u s e e le c tr ic i ty t o – t o c o o k a n d I a m s u r e t h e y – s o m e h a v e m u s i c s y s t e m s a n d s o o n . S o I a m j u s t i n te r e s t e d i n a p a r t fr o m b u s in e s s e s in te r m s o f h o m e w h a t – w h a t w o u l d b e th e t y p e o f 10 t h i n g s th a t t h e h ig h e a r n e r s d o w h i c h a r e u n lik e ly t o b e d o n e b y i n t e r m s o f e l e c tr i c i ty b y t h e l o w S M M ’s p e o p l e o th e r t h a n t h a t m a y b e h ig h e a r n e r s m i g h t h a v e t h r e e o r f o u r t e le v is i o n s e ts in t h e s a m e h o u s e – h o u s e w h e r e a s m a y b e t h e p e o p l e i n t h e l o w e r c a t e g o r y m ig h t h a v e o n e . M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir j a . T h a t a n s w e r t o t h i s is t w o fo l d . O n e is j u s t t h a t i t is b e h a v i o u r a l. S o – a l th o u g h y o u – y o u r e f e r t o t h e l o w e r L S M ’s h a v i n g t e l e v is io n , m u s ic s e ts a n d a ls o u s i n g m a y b e a t w o p la t e e l e c tr i c s t o v e t o c o o k o n a n d s o o n . T h e a t ti t u d e o r th e b e h a v i o u r a l a s p e c t o f t h o s e p e o p le a r e a lr e a d y i n a s a v in g s m o d e . B e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t h i g h e a r n e r s i n t e r ms o f s a l a r i e s . S o t h e y n e e d – I h a v e t o m a k e a c h o i c e 20 d o I s e n d m y c h i ld t o s c h o o l o r d o I c o o k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e y a l r e a d y … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y c a r e m o r e a b o u t s a v in g . M R P R E TO R I U S : E x a c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e fo r e w i th r e g a r d t o e l e c tr ic i t y th e y w o u l d b e Page 59 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 tr y i n g t o u s e i t m i n i m a ll y. M R P R E TO R I U S : E s p e c i a ll y b e c a u s e o f – o f t h e p r ic e a n d s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e y w o u l d a lr e a d y b e f r u g a l . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : To a n s w e r t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f t h e q u e s ti o n C h a ir w h e r e y o u a s k e d w h a t d o e s t h e h i g h e r L S M h a v e t h a t th e lo w e r L S M d o e s n o t h a v e . Ye s y o u a r e q u i t e r i g h t . T h e y m i g h t h a v e th r e e o r fo u r television sets. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e y h a v e d is h w a s h e r s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : W h ic h y o u w il l n o t fi n d i n t h e lo w e r L S M . T h e y h a v e a u t o m a ti c w a s h i n g m a c h i n e s , t u m b l e d r ie r s , u n d e r fl o o r h e a t in g , s w i m m i n g p o o ls a n d s o o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR PRETORIUS: S o f o r u s – f o r E s k o m in p a r ti c u la r a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e w a s t h e p e a k p e r i o d i n t h e a f t e r n o o n . S o f r o m 5 t o 8 o r 5 t o 9 w a s t h e p e a k p e r i o d . S o w e d i d n o t w a n t t h o s e p e o p l e w i t h th e s w i m m i n g 20 p o o ls a n d s o o n a n d t h e a u t o m a t ic w a s h i n g m a c h in e s a n d d u r i n g w in t e r t o s w i tc h o n a l l t h e s e s tu ff d u r i n g p e a k ti m e b e c a u s e it c r e a t e d a p r o b le m f o r E s k o m . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e t h a t i s w h e n w e r a n o u t o f c a p a c i ty a n d th a t we had to go into load shedding as a last resort. Page 60 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. W e ll I g u e s s y o u a ls o t r u e w o u ld b e th a t b e c a u s e t h e y a r e w e a l t h y t h e q u e s ti o n o f t h e c o s t s m i g h t n o t b e a b i g thing to them. M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p a r e d t o p e o p l e a t lo w e r l e v e ls . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o C h a ir t h e r e s e a r c h t h a t w e d id s p e c i fi c a ll y a f te r t h e 2 0 0 8 a n d t o s e t o u r s e l v e s u p t o d e a l w i t h – w i th lo a d s h e d d i n g b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r i t w a s – it w a s a l o n g t e r m is s u e t h a t w e h a d t o d e a l w i t h a s a c o u n tr y. S o t h e r e s e a r c h t h a t w e h a d d o n e is w e l o o k e d a t – 10 at convenience f a c to r, cost and the e n v ir o n m e n t d i d n o t s c o r e v e r y h ig h . e n v ir o n m e n t . Sadly the P e o p le d id n o t w a n t t o s a v e e l e c tr ic i t y t o s a v e t h e e n v i r o n m e n t . T h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o . T h e r e w a s a v e r y f e w p e o p le t h a t m a d e th e c o n n e c t io n a n d o n ly i n th e h i g h e r L S M . I n t h e l o w e r L S M t h e r e w a s n o a p p e ti t e f o r s a v in g f o r e n v ir o n m e n t . T h e c o s t e l e m e n t w a s a t t h e lo w e r L S M a n d a t t h e h i g h e r L S M w a s t h e c o n v e n i e n c e f a c t o r. I h a v e m o n e y, y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o s u p p l y e l e c tr ic i t y s o s u p p ly m e w i t h e le c tr i c i ty. I a m n o t c u t t in g b a c k a n d I h a v e t h e m o n e y t o p a y f o r i t. S o t h a t w a s t h e a t ti t u d e t h a t t h e h ig h e r L S M ’s h a d a t th a t p o in t i n ti m e . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . M r P r e to r i u s c a n w e t h e n r e t u r n t o th e correspondence at page 133? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : I n r e s p o n s e t o Mr C h o e u ’s e m a i l i f w e m o v e u p t h e p a g e Mr R o u x r e s p o n d s : Page 61 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 “ T h a n k s M r C h o e u f o r s u g g e s t in g th e m e e t in g a n d a s k s w h e n w o u ld b e – w h e n y o u w o u l d b e a v a i la b le ” And then further up the page you respond to him and you say: “ H i J a c q u e s p e r h a p s i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r o u r m e e ti n g y o u c o u ld p u t a s a l e s p r o p o s a l t o g e t h e r. ” N o w th a t – t h a t s u g g e s t s t h a t – b y t h a t p o i n t y o u h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a s a l e s p r o p o s a ls ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e h a d r e c e iv e d a p r o p o s a l th a t w a s o n e s id e d . S o t h e p r o p o s a l th a t t h e y c a m e a n d s a w u s w i t h - w i t h t h e b r e a k f a s ts a n d 10 a n d th e a d v e r t is in g w a s in t h e r e b u t s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t a s I s a i d t h e r e is - m a n y m e e t i n g s h a v e ta k e n p l a c e … A D V M B I K IWA : H u h - u h . M R P R E TO R I U S : A c r o s s - w it h Mr C h o e u a n d Mr H o w a - ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t) m y a p o l o g ie s a n d s o w e w e r e a t a d i ff e r e n t p o i n t in t h a t a n d I h a d a b u d g e t i n - in m i n d w h ic h I g o t fr o m - fr o m M r C h o e u s a y in g h o w m u c h w e s h o u ld b e s p e n d in g w i th T h e N e w A g e . S o th a t is w h y I a s k e d him for a sales proposal … A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 document. B e c a u s e n o w w e h a d t w o c o m p o n e n ts i n - i n t h is W e h a d th e s p o n s o r s h i p c o m p o n e n t a n d w e h a d th e a d v e r t is in g c o m p o n e n t . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d in t h i s e m a il y o u a s k th a t - th a t h e p r o v id e s o m e s o r t o f d i s c o u n t o r a d d e d v a l u e i f y o u a r e g o in g to e n t e r in t o a 1 2 m o n th s p o n s o r s h i p . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . M y m i d d le n a m e is “ A d d e d Va lu e ” . Page 62 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K IWA : I f w e c a n t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h is is a t a ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e n o w b a s ic a l ly n o w c a r r y i n g o u t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e t o l d h a d b e e n g i v e n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d C h a ir i f I c a n a s k a f o ll o w o n q u e s ti o n f r o m t h a t . I s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g f r o m M r C h o e u ’s e m a i l a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e o f “ c l o s e t h e d e a l” … M R P R E TO R I U S : H m . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : T h a t y o u m u s t g o a h e a d a n d s i g n t h e c o n tr a c t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : I f w e t h e n t u r n t o p a g e 1 3 2 a t t h e b o tt o m M r R o u x s a y s t h a t t h e y h a v e k e p t f o u r b r e a k f a s t ’s o p e n fo r Es k o m t o s p o n s o r. M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d t h e n i n t h e m i d d le o f t h e p a g e M r C h o e u r e s p o n d s t o M r - to M r R o u x a n d h e s a y s t h a t t h e 4 9 M b r e a k fa s t t h a t w e a r e p r o p o s in g h e r e a r e th e b r e a k f a s ts th a t w o u l d b e a li g n e d t o t h e M i n is t e r ’s 4 9 M N a ti o n a l C a m p a ig n a n d h e a s k s f o r t h e b r e a k f a s ts t o b e s p e c i f ic a l ly s ty l e d in - in t h e 4 9 M s ty l e - d e s i g n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I h a v e lo s t y o u M r … A D V M B I K IWA : I a p o l o g is e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Where …? A D V M B I K IWA : W e a r e o n p a g e 1 3 2 . I t is m y f a u l t . I d i d n o t i n d i c a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : W h e n w e g e t t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w e - w e n e e d to w o r k Page 63 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 b a c k w a r d s i n o r d e r to g o i n c h r o n o l o g ic a l o r d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : S o - s o I s ta r t e d o n p a g e 1 3 0 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n - y o u c a n r e s t a s s u r e d I k n o w th a t p a r t . A D V M B I K IWA : W e s t a r t e d o n p a g e 1 3 3 a n d w e a r e n o w o n p a g e 1 3 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d I a m i n th e m i d d le o f t h e p a g e . I a m lo o k i n g a t M r C h o e u ’s ’ e m a i l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V M B I K IWA : And I see there that someone by the name of M r Mz w a n d il e R a d e b e … M R P R E TO R I U S : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V M B I K IWA : Is c o p i e d . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : W h o is t h a t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d b e R a d e b e . A D V M B I K IWA : R a d e b e . A p o lo g ie s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr R a d e b e . M R P R E TO R I U S : Mr R a d e b e - M z w a n d i le R a d e b e w a s w o r k in g d ir e c t ly 20 w i t h th e M i n i s te r a n d w a s th e li a i s o n b e tw e e n u s a n d th e M i n i s te r. I a m n o t s u r e w h a t h i s o ffi c i a l ti t le a n d r o l e w a s a t D P E b u t h e w a s n o t t h e r e H e a d o f C o m m u n i c a t io n . S o it w o u l d b e u n u s u a l f o r u s - f o r my department because I am not responsible for stakeholder engagement t o e n g a g e w i th - w i th a n y b o d y e ls e a t D P E o th e r t h a n t h e H e a d o f C o m m u n i c a t io n . Page 64 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h e n y o u r e fe r r e d e a r l ie r t o p e o p l e w i th i n t h e M i n is t e r ’s O ff ic e b e in g c o p ie d o n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w e r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o a n e m a il s u c h a s t h is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I w a s r e fe r r i n g t o M r R a d e b e b e c a u s e i n s tr u c t io n s c a m e fr o m h i m v e r b a lly. I j u s t w a n t e d t o m e n ti o n a c t u a l ly e a r li e r t h a t a n d - a n d i t r e l a te s t o a q u e s ti o n t h a t th e C h a ir a s k e d e a r li e r. That u n f o r t u n a t e ly I d i d a s k f o r - a r r o g a n t ly a s k e d fo r th is t o b e p u t in w r i t in g b e c a u s e I d o n o t - I w i ll n o t e x e c u te t h i s i f t h e - i f i t is n o t i n w r i t in g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : I n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y o f t h e in s tr u c ti o n s i n w r i ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u - y o u - y o u r r e q u e s t f o r t h is to b e i n w r i ti n g w a s i t d ir e c t e d a t Mr C h o e u ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e p r o m i s e t o g iv e i t in w r i t in g ? H e d i d n o t? M R P R E TO R I U S : H e d i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : A s fa r a s y o u r e m e m b e r. H e d i d n o t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u n e v e r r e c e iv e d t h e w r it t e n i n s tr u c ti o n ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : N e i th e r d id w e r e c e i v e w r i tt e n in s t r u c t i o n fr o m Mr Dames. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o w e w e r e s o r t o f c o u r t i n th e m i d d le o f th is … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h i s i s w h e n - w h e n M r R o u x s ta r t s c o p y i n g Page 65 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M z w a n d i le . M z w a n d il e w a s g iv in g in s tr u c t io n s t o e v e r y b o d y. C h a ir s o f t h e v a r i o u s S t a t e O w n e d E n ti t ie s , th e C E ’s , t o u s . To t h e So if M z w a n d i le a s k e d u s t o - t o p u t a p in k p i ll o w o n th e M i n i s t e r ’s c h a ir. W e h a d to d o i t . W e h a d n o - n o q u e s t io n s a s k e d . Yo u ju s t d o i t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d i f y o u d id n o t d o i t t h e n h e r e p o r t e d y o u t o t h e M i n is t e r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o t h a t m a d e i t v e r y - i n c r e d i b l y d i ff ic u l t f o r u s t o 10 to operate … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : As a n i n d e p e n d e n t S t a te O w n e d E n ti ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . I g u e s s t h a t a lo t o f w h a t M r P r e to r i u s m a y h a v e t o s a y a b o u t s u c h in s tr u c ti o n s m i g h t c o m e o u t in t h e o th e r p h a s e t h a t M s H o f m e y r t a lk e d a b o u t w h e r e I c o u l d b e t o ld m o r e a b o u t s o m e o f those things. A D V M B I K IWA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . S o - s o I a m j u s t m e n ti o n i n g M r P r e to r i u s in c a s e a n y b o d y m i g h t w o n d e r w h y w e a r e n o t p r o b i n g in t o s o m e o f t h e 20 t h i n g s y o u a r e m e n t io n i n g . T h a t M s H o f m e y r d i d s a y th a t th e r e w i ll b e another phase where … M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : S o m e o f t h e - o f t h e E s k o m w it n e s s e s w o u ld c o m e b a c k a n d th e n d e a l w i t h o t h e r m a tt e r s . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. Page 66 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : I u n d e r s ta n d . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V M B I K IWA : T h e n M r Pr e to r i u s i f w e c a n g o fu r t h e r u p th e correspondence. M r R o u x t h e n th a n k s y o u f o r t h e u p d a t e . Says it is a n e x c i ti n g o p p o r t u n i ty t h a t t h e y w ill b e w i lli n g t o e x p lo r e w i t h y o u a n d t h e n s u g g e s ts t h a t y o u c l o s e t h e i n i ti a l d e a l o f th e f o u r b r e a k f a s ts fir s t t h is w e e k . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : I f y o u t h e n t u r n o v e r to p a g e 1 3 1 . Mr Choeu three s a y s t h a t y o u - y o u w il l - th a t y o u w il l b e w o r k i n g w i th P ie t e r - t h a t i s y o u - a n d Ts h e p o . W h o is th a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I t is M r M o r e m i , m y G M - G e n e r a l M a n a g e r - th a t I r e p o r t e d t o d ir e c t ly. A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y a n d - a n d t h e n th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e n d s t o w a r d s t h e t o p o f th e p a g e w i th a m e e t in g s c h e d u le d f o r t h e n e x t d a y. D o y o u r e c a l l i f th a t m e e t i n g t o o k p la c e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h a t o c c u r r e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is w h e r e Mr R o u x a n d p r e s e n t e d t h e p r o p o s a l t o u s a n d i t w a s s t ill a b o u t t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t a n d s o m e a d v e r ti s i n g a n d I s a i d t o h i m t h a t w e w i ll h a v e a l o o k a t i t a n d c o m e b a c k t o h i m o n that. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d h o w d i d th e p r o p o s a l a t t h i s p o i n t d i ff e r f r o m t h e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d ? Page 67 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly t h a t th e r e w a s - t h e a d v e r t is in g s p e n t w a s m u c h h i g h e r th a n w h a t w e w e r e w i lli n g t o s p e n d fr o m t h e p r o p o s a ls a n d t h is h a d f o u r b r e a k f a s ts i n . T h e y w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t f o u r b r e a k f a s t s f o r E s k o m w h ic h la t e r t h e n c h a n g e d t o s i x a n d b e c a u s e h e - Mr R o u x h a d i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y h a d s o l d a ll t h e o t h e r breakfasts. S o t h e r e w a s o n ly fo u r l e f t a n d h e k e p t th o s e s p e c if ic a l ly f o r E s k o m . H o w e v e r tw o - t w o b r e a k fa s ts w e r e a d d e d to t h e c o n tr a c t a t a la t e r s t a g e . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d h o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d a t t h a t m e e ti n g t o - t o the request? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o I s a i d to M r R o u x t h a t I w i ll d is c u s s i t w i t h m y m e d i a a g e n c y. S o I d i s c u s s e d i t w i th D o n a l d D e p o k o ( ? ) w h o w a s t h e Business Unit Head at MediaShop and I asked Donald to - M r D e p o k o ( ? ) t o c o m e u p w i th a p r o p o s a l t h a t i s m o r e p a l a ta b le f o r Eskom. A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. L e t - l e t u s ju s t p a u s e t h e r e . Yo u m e n ti o n e d t h e M e d i a S h o p . W h a t is t h e M e d ia S h o p ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e M e d i a S h o p w a s o u r m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y. 20 A D V M B I K IWA : R i g h t. M R P R E TO R I U S : A t th e ti m e . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d M r D e p o k o ( ? ) ? M R P R E TO R I U S : H e w a s w o r k in g f o r M e d i a S h o p a n d h e w a s t h e B u s i n e s s U n it D ir e c to r o n t h e Es k o m b u s i n e s s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d d id M r D e p o k o ( ? ) e x p r e s s a n y - a n y Page 68 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t t h e - t h e c o n tr a c t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . H e d id . A D V M B I K IWA : W h a t d id h e s a y ? M R P R E TO R I U S : H e a l s o a g r e e d w i t h m e th a t i t i s n o t a - a g o o d i d e a t o g o a h e a d w i t h th is a n d I s a i d to h i m D o n a l d w e h a v e n o c h o ic e . W e h a v e t o d o th is . A D V M B I K IWA : And was it normal p r a c ti c e for a sponsorship a g r e e m e n t - w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t c o m p o n e n t t o b e - t o g o th r o u g h a m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y s u c h a s th e M e d i a S h o p ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : W e ll n o t th e s p o n s o r s h ip c o m p o n e n t b u t th is - t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p r o p o s a l c o n t a i n e d a n a d v e r t is i n g c o m p o n e n t . S o w e s a id t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h a t w e w il l p u t - t o p u t i t t h r o u g h t h e M e d i a S h o p . T h e is s u e h e r e C h a i r w a s t h a t i f w e w a n t e d to e n t e r in t o a n a g r e e m e n t - t h i s w a s my a d v i c e t o Mr C h o e u a t th e ti m e . I f w e e n t e r i n to a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h T h e N e w A g e w e m i g h t f in d t h e o t h e r m e d i a a s k i n g w h y w e r e w e - w e n o t g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty a n d a c c o r d i n g t o E s k o m ’s P r o c u r e m e n t R u le s a n d R e g u la t io n s t h a t i t s h o u l d g o o u t o n o p e n t e n d e r, b u t if I w a s to - g o n e to p l a c e a n a d v e r t i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s b e c a u s e I h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h o p e n t e n d e r to a p p o i n t a 20 m e d i a a g e n c y a s t h e m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n c y I w o u ld ju s t s a y t o - t o M e d i a S h o p t h a t w e w a n t to p l a c e a n a d v e r t i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s f o r a n e w C h i e f E x e c u tiv e o r w h a te v e r t h e c a s e m a y b e . S o t h a t i s - is d i ffe r e n t b u t t h is N e w A g e h a d a p r o p o s a l w h ic h th e y b e l ie v e d r i g h tly o r w r o n g ly th a t c o u l d h e l p E s k o m s o l v e i ts p r o b le m s , b u t w e h a d n o t c h e c k e d t h e m a r k e t . S o w e w o u l d h a v e - t h e Page 69 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 - t h e p r u d e n t t h i n g w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o d o a n R FI - a r e q u e s t f o r in f o r m a ti o n f ir s t t o s e e - to t e s t th e m a r k e t a n d t h e n d e c i d e o n a process. That - that would have been the prudent thing, but because w e d i d n o t h a v e a c h o ic e I s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e a d d t h e a d v e r ti s i n g c o m p o n e n t a n d w e d o it t h r o u g h M e d i a S h o p . A D V M B I K IWA : Can I then ask you to turn to the next chain of - of c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ? T h a t i s o n p a g e 1 3 9 . It is A n n e x u r e 5 . A t t h e b o t t o m o f th e p a g e a n d th e n o f c o u r s e i t - it g o e s o v e r t o p a g e 1 4 0 . M r R o u x 10 c o n ta c t s y o u a n d th a n k s y o u fo r y o u r m e e t in g . A t t a c h e s a p r e s e n ta t io n o f t h e e v e n t a s w e l l a s a n e s ti m a t e o f th e i n v e s t m e n t b r e a k d o w n . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : Yo u t h e n - i f w e g o f u r th e r u p o n p a g e 1 3 9 - c o n t a c ts Mr Depoko (?) … M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d y o u - y o u s e t o u t t h e r e a - a d iv is i o n o f r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : C a n y o u - c a n y o u e x p l a i n th a t to u s ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : I - I w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e th a t T h e N e w A g e t a k e s c a r e o f w h a t t h e y - t h a t i t is d o c u m e n t e d t h a t t h e y w i ll t a k e c a r e o f w h a t t h e y s a i d i n t h e p r o p o s a l w h i c h w a s a P o w e r P o i n t p r e s e n ta t io n . T h i s w a s t o b e a c o n t r a c t t h a t th e y n e e d e d t o b e s i g n e d . S o th a t t h e r e is a c l e a r - w e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t th e r e is a d iv is io n o f - o f d u ti e s o r / a n d r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a n d t h a t is w h a t w e - th a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g w e w i ll - Page 70 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w h a t E s k o m w i ll d o a n d w h a t th e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o . A D V M B I K IWA : And then if we go over to - to 138. Mr Depoko (?) r e s p o n d s to y o u a n d s a y s Ts h e p o h a s i m p r e s s e d o n m e t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f fi n a l is i n g t h is p r o p o s a l w i th T N A a n d h e h a s c o m m i t t e d R 1 0 m il li o n t o TN A . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e s e i n t e r a c ti o n s a t t h i s s t a g e w e r e in r e g a r d t o b o th T h e N e w A g e a n d th e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . T h e a d v e r t is i n g a n d t h e b r e a k f a s t , y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a d v e r tis i n g a n d t h e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : C h a ir p e r h a p s t o - to m a k e t h a t c l e a r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : I f y o u - i f y o u g o to p a g e 1 4 2 t h a t i s th e a t t a c h m e n t t o M r D e p o k o ’s ( ? ) e m a il a t t h e t o p o f 1 3 8 . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : O n 1 4 2 is t h e - is t h e b r e a k d o w n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : O f th e p r o p o s e d s p e n d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : M r Pr e t o r i u s c o u l d y o u j u s t t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h is ta b le a n d e x p l a i n to u s w h a t h e r e is - is t h e a d v e r t is i n g a n d w h a t is th e business breakfast? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e to p p a r t t a lk s a b o u t t h e E s k o m p r o g r a m s . T h o s e a r e th e v a r i o u s E s k o m p r o g r a m s t h a t w e w e r e r u n n i n g a t t h e Page 71 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 ti m e - t h e E s k o m D e v e l o p m e n t F o u n d a t i o n E n e r g y L o s s e s I n t e g r a t e d D e m a n d M a n a g e m e n t . T h e n w e to o k a p r o p o s i ti o n - M r D e p o k o ( ? ) t o o k a p r e s e n t - a g - a p e r c e n t a g e o f th e i r b u d g e t s p e n d a n d t h e n c a l c u l a t e d t h e ir c o n tr i b u ti o n t o t h e R 4 m i ll i o n t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o s p e n d o n a d v e r t is in g w i t h - w i th T h e N e w A g e . S o y o u w il l s e e r ig h t a t t h e b o t to m 4 9 M w e h a d t o c o n tr ib u te 2 0 p e r c e n t b e c a u s e w e h a d t h e h i g h e s t b u d g e t . S o w e h a d to - t o p l a c e R 8 0 0 0 0 0 w o r t h o f a d v e r ti s i n g . S o t h a t is t h e f ir s t c o m p o n e n t. The second … 10 A D V M B I K IWA : J u s t t o p a u s e y o u t h e r e . S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e to p t h e t o p e i g h t r o w s a r e a ll r e l a t e d t o a d v e r ti s in g ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : I n - i n Th e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . S o e a c h o f t h e - t h e s e - th e s e P r o g r a m M a n a g e r s w e r e m a d e a w a r e a n d s a i d t h i s i s - y o u a r e r e s p o n s i b l e to t o - o r y o u m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t i n y o u r m e d i a p la n s y o u i n c lu d e N e w A g e a n d f o r t h e E s k o m D e v e l o p m e n t F o u n d a ti o n y o u n e e d t o s p e n d R 1 6 0 0 0 0 o v e r t h e y e a r. A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y a n d th e n l e t u s - le t u s m o v e d o w n t o t h e - t o t h e 20 - w h e r e - w h e r e i t r e a d s b r a n d 1 0 0 p e r c e n t a n d i t g iv e s a f i g u r e o f 7 .1 8 5 m i ll i o n . M R P R E TO R I U S : Th a t is f o r t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t . So that was to t a lk t o - t o th e b r a n d a n d th e 4 9 M b r a n d . ( C o u g h i n g ) m y a p o lo g ie s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t e x p la i n t h a t to m e . Page 72 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : S o r r y C h a ir t h a t w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b r a n d p a r t . W h a t w a s t o b e d o n e ? W h y w a s i t to b e d o n e ? W h o w a s g o i n g t o d o it ? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th is i s t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s . S o t h e - t h e R 7 .2 m il li o n t h a t w e s p e n t w a s to - th e s p o n s o r s h i p fo r t h e - f o r t h e b u s in e s s breakfasts. S o w e w o u l d p a y a m il l i o n R a n d t o N e w A g e fo r th e business breakfast. I am not sure if I am … C H A I R P E R S O N : To - to s a y f o r t h e - f o r t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t w h a t w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ? F o r w h a t e x a c t ly ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f E s k o m . M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a i r s o fo r t h e - t h e f o r ma t - a m n o t s u r e i f y o u a r e a s k in g a b o u t t h e f o r m a t o f t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a m - I a m t r y in g t o - to u n d e r s ta n d w h a t E s k o m w a s g o i n g to g e t f o r th a t R 7 m il li o n . M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. S o w e w e r e g o i n g t o g e t s i x b r e a k f a s ts o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e y e a r. T h e - th e s p e a k e r s a t t h e b r e a k f a s t w a s determined by The New Age. N o t b y Es k o m . So they would have a M i n is t e r a n d t h e y w o u ld h a v e a b r e a k f a s t a n d t h e y w o u ld s a y o k a y 20 E s k o m h e r e i s a n o p p o r t u n i ty. Th e n w e - w e o r Tr a n s n e t w o u l d t a k e th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o - t o s p o n s o r th a t b r e a k f a s t . S o th e s p o n s o r s h ip th e n in c l u d e d t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e b r a n d in g i n th e v e n u e s i m i la r … C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t - j u s t l ik e th is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : E x a c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : P i c t u r e s li k e t h is . T h e d i ff e r e n c e i s i t is E s k o m - i t is Page 73 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 written Eskom. M R P R E TO R I U S : W e ll i t w a s - i t w a s 4 9 M C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 49M? M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d - a n d N e w A g e w a s a b a c k d r o p b a n n e r e x a c tly a s t h a t i s b e h in d y o u a n d t h e n w e h a d o p p o r t u n i ty to p u t u p s o m e p u ll u p b a n n e r s a n d t h e n w e h a d a n o p p o r tu n i ty t o - th e E d i t o r o f T h e N e w Age always sort of opened the breakfast and then Eskom - an Eskom r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f E x c o o r th e C h a ir m a n o r t h e C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e w a s g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o d o a s p e e c h , b u t t h is w a s o ff a ir. 10 I t w a s n o t o n a ir. v e n u e h e a r d t h is . S o n o b o d y o th e r th a n t h e p e o p le i n t h e Th e n t h e b r e a k fa s t w a s s e r v e d a n d th e n t h e y w e n t liv e t o - t o t h e - t h e S A B C 2 M o r n i n g L i v e a n d t h e n M r N d o r o w o u l d a s k q u e s t io n s t o t h e M in is t e r - w h o e v e r is th e r e - a n d e v e n th e n t h e - t h e p u b lic t h e n v i a Tw it t e r a n d v i a t h e s tu d io S M S l in e a l s o a s k e d q u e s ti o n s a n d M r N d o r o fr o m S A B C t h e n a s k e d t h o s e q u e s t io n s a s w e ll . T h e c h a l le n g e t h a t o n e - I h a d w it h - w i th a l l o f t h i s w a s t h a t t h e M i n is te r i f it is t h e M i n is t e r o f Wa t e r A ff a ir s a n d S a n it a t io n t h a t M i n is t e r w il l n o t ta lk a b o u t 4 9 M a n d e n e r g y e ff ic i e n c y. T h a t M i n is t e r w i ll ta lk a b o u t h e r o r h is p o r t f o l io . N o t a b o u t e n e r g y e ffic i e n c y. S o f o r 20 m e i t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e t o h a v e t h a t M in is te r b e c a u s e th e m e s s a g e t h a t I n e e d e d t o g e t o u t w a s t o g e t 4 9 m il li o n p e o p l e t o r a lly a r o u n d e n e r g y e ffi c i e n c y. So once we have made the speech - the Eskom speech and t h e y w e n t o n a ir w e n e v e r a s E s k o m g o t t h e o p p o r tu n it y t o t a l k a b o u t 4 9 M a n d w h a t i t s t a n d s fo r a n d s o . Th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n - a n d I a d m i t Page 74 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t o t h a t - t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n th e o d d c o m m e n t o r q u e s ti o n a r o u n d 4 9 M o r e n e r g y e ff ic ie n c y f r o m M r N d o r o b u t it w a s n o t c o m m o n p r a c ti c e . CHAIRPERSON : B u t e v e n b e fo r e y o u g e t to w h e th e r i t i s s o m e b o d y fr o m E s k o m - w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y fr o m E s k o m s p e a k s t o th e p e o p le p r e s e n t o r h i s o r h e r s p e e c h is b r o a d c a s t o n t e l e v is io n e v e n b e f o r e y o u g e t t h e r e . W h y d i d - w h y w o u ld Es k o m w a n t t o s p e n d m o n e y - m a y b e le t u s l e a v e t h a t p a r t o f s p e a k i n g f o r n o w. W h y w o u l d t h e y s p e n d s u c h a l o t o f m o n e y fo r s i m p l y h a v i n g t h e s e t h i n g s a t s u c h b r e a k f a s ts a n d e v e n if t h e y a r e s h o w n o n T V a n d 10 so what? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o C h a ir. I c a n n o t a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n . I t - i t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e to m e e i t h e r. CHAIRPERSON : s t a te m e n t . Ye s . No. I - I mean I know I have read your I k n o w y o u r d i ff ic u l ti e s w i t h i t . I - I m e a n I - I c o u ld u n d e r s t a n d m a y b e - I c o u ld u n d e r s ta n d t h a t m a y b e i f a p r i v a t e b u s i n e s s w a n ts t o a d v e r t is e t h e ir b u s i n e s s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . M a y b e i t m ig h t m a k e s o m e s e n s e d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t th e y p a y f o r i t, b u t E s k o m is a - i s a S t a t e O w n e d E n ti t y a n d w h y - w h y is i t i m p o r t a n t to i t to j u s t h a v e i t s n a m e i n s u c h b r e a k fa s t s h o w s - ju s t t h e n a m e ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : N o C h a ir. I t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t e v e n t h e E s k o m l o g o . I t w a s t h e 4 9 M l o g o w h ic h w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : C o m p l e te ly a d i ffe r e n t b r a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : I t w a s b l a c k a n d - a n d y e l lo w … Page 75 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d E s k o m ’s c o r p o r a te c o l o u r s a r e b l u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e 4 9 M lo g o i f y o u d i d n o t h a v e c o n te x t a r o u n d i t s o m e p e o p l e i n - i n th e m a r k e t r e s e a r c h t h a t w e d i d a t t h a t ti m e s o m e p e o p l e th o u g h t i t w a s a r a d i o s t a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll I a m n o t s u r p r i s e d . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o - s o w e - w e d i d n o t h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to e n g a g e o n 4 9 M . P l u s if y o u l o o k a t t h e - t h e t a r g e t m a r k e t t h e p e o p le 10 t h a t w a t c h S A B C M o r n i n g L i v e w e r e a ls o n o t o u r p r i m a r y ta r g e t m a r k e t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e it g o e s u p t o A N N 6 a n d p e o p l e t h a t a t 9 o ’ c lo c k i n th e m o r n in g i s s ti ll a t h o m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : Wa t c h in g te l e v i s i o n a r e m o s t p r o b a b l y e c o n o m ic a ll y in a c ti v e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e y a r e n o t p a r t o f t h e t a r g e t m a r k e t … 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e y a r e n o t t h e d e c is io n m a k e r s w h e n it c o m e s t o w h a t w e p a y o r w h a t w e s p e n d th e m o n e y o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o f o r u s a s a n o r g a n i s a ti o n i t w o u l d n o t - fo r m e a m a r k e t e r a n d f o r u s a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n th a t w o u ld n o t b e s u ff ic ie n t . I Page 76 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w o u ld n o t p a y a m i ll io n R a n d … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : For that. I w o u ld n e g o ti a te a c o m p l e t e ly d i ff e r e n t p a c k a g e , b u t a s I h a v e m e n ti o n e d b e f o r e C h a ir w e w e r e f o r c e d i n t o t h is … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h i s w a s t h e f o r m a t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d w h e n t h e - t h e r e w a s a p e r i o d i n - i n - d u r i n g t h e 10 - T h e N e w A g e Br e a k f a s t th a t t h e o t h e r m e d i a h a d c o m p la in e d a b o u t t h is a n d - a n d w h y - w h y is - is Th e N e w A g e a n d E s k o m o r S t a t e O w n e d E n t it i e s in t h is tr a n s a c ti o n a n d T h e N e w A g e ’s r e a c ti o n to t h a t w a s o n t h e i r - t h e y w r o te i n - i n t h e n e w s p a p e r t h a t o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s a r e j u s t j e a l o u s b e c a u s e t h e y c a m e u p w i t h th is c o n c e p t b u t i t w a s n o t tr u e b e c a u s e M a il & G u a r d i a n d u r in g P O P 1 7 h a d c o m e u p w i th e x a c t ly t h e s a m e c o n c e p t w h ic h w e - E s k o m s p o n s o r e d fo r R 3 0 0 0 0 0 a t P O P 1 7 in D u r b a n w h e r e w e h a d a f a r b e tt e r b r a n d e x p o s u r e a n d w e h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o ta lk a b o u t o u r s u s t a i n a b il i ty a n d e n v ir o n m e n t a l is s u e s a t - a t t h a t e v e n t. 20 S o i f y o u t a k e t h a t a n e x a m p l e v e r s u s th is a s a n e x a m p l e . I t ju s t s i m p l y m a k e s n o fi n a n c i a l s e n s e fo r E s k o m to s p e n d t h a t k in d o f m o n e y o n a b r e a k f a s t a n d t h e n I a m - I k n o w I a m j u m p in g h e a d - b u t t h e n C h a ir y o u a ls o h a v e t o a s k y o u r s e lv e s t h e q u e s t io n . s e l li n g s e a t s . S o I a m p a y i n g f o r my b r e a k f a s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll I w a s s t il l c o m in g th e r e . Page 77 of 170 If y o u a r e 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON : N o . N o . C o n t in u e , b e c a u s e I a m lo o k i n g a t e x a c tly w h a t y o u p a y 7 m i ll i o n o r a m i ll io n R a n d p e r b r e a k f a s t s h o w f o r. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o t h e - t h e t a b l e s w i ll b e s o l d . S o E s k o m g o t t w o t a b le s o f 1 0 . S o t h a t is 2 0 s e a ts a n d th e n t w o - t w o s e a ts a t t h e m a i n t a b le - w h o e v e r th e M i n i s t e r w a s t h a t w a s t h e r e . W e - w e w o u ld h a v e t w o s e a ts t h e r e . U n fo r t u n a t e ly b e c a u s e o f t h e r e p u t a ti o n o f - o f T h e N e w A g e w h i c h s p r e a d v e r y q u i c k l y. Yo u f o u n d i t v e r y d i ffi c u l t to g e t p e o p l e to - t o fi ll t h e ta b l e s . 10 S o s o m e o f t h e t a b l e s w e r e f il le d b y E s k o m s t a ff a n d t h a t d e fe a ts t h e o b j e c t , b u t t h o s e - th o s e ta b l e s - th e r e s t o f t h e p e o p l e in th e v e n u e w o u ld p a y fo r t h e ir - f o r t h e ir s e a ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir s e a t s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ja. S o i f o n e is fi n a n c i a l ly a s t u te y o u w o u l d c a l c u l a te t h e c o s t o f t h e t ic k e t w h i c h w i ll i n c lu d e t h o s e 2 0 s e a t s t h a t y o u a r e g iv i n g a w a y f o r fr e e o r 2 2 s e a ts t h a t y o u a r e g iv i n g a w a y f o r fr e e - y o u w o u l d i n c lu d e i t in t h e c o s t o f w h a t e v e r a s e a t w a s . I c a n n o t remember how much it was. S o t h e y w o u l d s e l l th o s e s e a ts w h ic h w o u ld p a y f o r t h e 20 b r e a k f a s t , w o u ld p a y f o r th e - t h e v e n u e h ir e a n d t a b l e d e c o r a ti o n s i f t h e r e w a s f l o w e r - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r if th e r e w e r e f l o w e r s o n t h e t a b l e and so on, but nothing elaborate. No elaborate breakfast. It was a n o r m a l k i n d o f b r e a k f a s t a t - a t a th r e e , fo u r - fo u r o r fiv e s t a r h o t e l . S o m y q u e s t io n w a s w h e r e d o e s m y m il li o n R a n d g o b e c a u s e it c a n n o t g o i n t o th e b u s in e s s b r e a k fa s t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y p a id Page 78 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 f o r t h a t b y s e l li n g t a b l e s a n d - a n d s e a t s . S o w h e r e d o e s t h e m il li o n R a n d g o b e c a u s e t h is is E s k o m m o n e y. I t i s p u b l ic m o n e y. W h y is it going there? S o m y - th a t w a s my q u e s ti o n a n d I a s k e d t h i s q u e s ti o n t o J a c q u e s a n d I a s k e d th e s a m e q u e s t i o n t o M r H o w a a s w e l l. I a m y e t t o r e c e i v e a n a n s w e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t th a t ti m e M r C h o e u w a s h e i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h y o u r v i e w s a b o u t t h e b r e a k f a s t s h o w s a n d a d v e r ti s i n g o n - o n T h e N e w A g e e x c e p t t h a t h e s a id w e a r e u n d e r i n s t r u c t io n o r s o m e t h in g l ik e th a t 10 o r d i d h a v e d i ffe r e n t v ie w s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : M r C h o e u h a s a d i ffe r e n t s ty l e C h a ir i f I m a y - M r C h o e u a lw a y s u s e d t h e - th e p h r a s e y o u n e e d t o m a n a g e y o u r b o s s . S o y o u n e e d to m a n a g e u p w a r d s . S o I n e e d e d t o m a n a g e h i m w h i c h I f a il e d to d o , b u t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o M r C h o e u s a i d P i e t e r w a y m a k e y o u r s e lf s i c k b y w o r r y in g a b o u t t h i s b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o t h i n g y o u c a n d o a b o u t t h is . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o l e t u s d o th is t o t h e b e s t o f o u r a b i li ty … 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e t h i s i s w h a t w e h a v e b e e n in s t r u c t e d t o d o … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : O r t o l d t o d o . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 79 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : S o h e h a s a d i ff e r e n t s t y le i n t e r m s o f th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : I th in k a n d - a n d w h e n Mr C h o e u t e s t if i e s y o u c a n c h e c k w i t h h i m b u t I t h i n k th a t Mr C h o e u h a d v e r y s i m i la r v i e w s … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : Ar o u n d th is … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a n w h a t I h a v e . CHAIRPERSON : 10 Hm. O k a y. Th a n k y o u , b u t e v e n i f t h e E s k o m r e p r e s e n t a tiv e w e r e t o b e a ll o w e d t o s p e a k a n d h i s o r h e r s p e e c h w a s a l lo w e d - w a s b r o a d c a s t . W o u l d t h e p o s i t io n n o t b e t h a t i f - if E s k o m w a n t e d t o a d d r e s s t h e p u b lic a b o u t a n y i s s u e o f in t e r e s t s u c h a s l o a d s h e d d in g i f t h e y c a l le d a m e d i a c o n f e r e n c e t h e y c o u l d e a s i ly g e t t h a t broadcast? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s ; a n d w e d o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o i f w e c a ll a m e d i a c o n fe r e n c e I m e a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : E v e r y b o d y a t t e n d s a n d i t is li n e d w i t h c a m e r a s i n - i n 20 our … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u p a y n o t h in g fo r i t . M R P R E TO R I U S : W e p a y n o th i n g f o r i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m - I a m i n d e b te d fo r t h o s e q u e s t io n s b e c a u s e t h a t - t h a t tr a v e r s e s m u c h o f t h e g r o u n d I w a n t e d t o Page 80 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 c o v e r o n - o n v a l u e f o r m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : J u s t t w o r e s i d u a l is s u e s o n t h a t s c o r e , th e o n e is , M r P r e t o r i u s d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e N e w A g e , a s p a r t o f t h e c o s t s y o u r e fe r r e d t o w a s p a y i n g fo r th e b r o a d c a s t – p a y i n g S A B C t o b r o a d c a s t the show? M R P R E TO R I U S : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g , it w a s f o r fr e e . A D V M B I K I WA : a n d y o u m e n t i o n e d e a r li e r t h a t t h e – w h il e i t w a s b r o a d c a s t o n S A B C 2 t h e m o r n i n g li v e s h o w d id n ’t t a r g e t t h e L S M G r o u p 10 t h a t 4 9 M w a s d ir e c t e d a t, b e i n g t h e h i g h e r L S M G r o u p s . C h a ir, M r P r e t o r i u s h a s a t t a c h e d t o h is a ffi d a v i t a p r e s e n t a ti o n d o n e b y t h e M e d i a S h o p w h i c h in d ic a t e s t h a t 2 8 % o f th e v ie w e r s o f m o r n i n g li v e w e r e fr o m t h e h i g h L S M ’s o f 8 t o 1 0 a n d t h a t 7 2 % w e r e f r o m t h e l o w e r o n e s , It ’s not necessary for us to go there. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : M s H o f m e y r r e m i n d s m e th a t t h e r e is o n e i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t o f th a t p r e s e n t a t i o n , i t ’s a t p a g e 1 6 5 o f M M 1 A . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B IK I WA : 20 Ye s . Yo u s e e th e r e t h a t u n d e r n e a t h t h e t a b le i t s a y s t h a t i n 2 0 1 2 M o r n i n g L iv e h a d a n a v e r a g e o f 6 0 0 0 0 0 a d u l ts w h o v ie w e d t h e p r o g r a m m e . T h e d a t a t h a t I j u s t g a v e y o u C h a ir i s i m m e d i a t e ly b e l o w t h a t o f t h e 2 8 % o f th e h i g h e r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K IWA : CHAIRPERSON : Ye s I c a n s e e t h a t j a . T h a n k y o u … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . O f c o u r s e – I d o n ’ t k n o w t o w h a t e x te n t , a t th a t Page 81 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s t a g e , t h is m i g h t h a v e b e e n a f a c t o r, n a m e ly i ll e g a l c o n n e c t io n s m a y h a v e b e e n a n is s u e t h a t m a y h a v e n e e d e d t o b e a t t e n d e d to a s w e ll a s p a r t o f s a v i n g e l e c tr ic i ty b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r th o s e w h o e n g a g e in ill e g a l c o n n e c ti o n s w o u ld h a v e a n y i n c e n t iv e n o t t o u s e e le c t r ic i ty b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d n o t b e p a y i n g f o r i t a n y w a y. MR PRETORIUS: Chair if I may you refer you back to page 142 with t h e t a b l e t h a t M r To b o g o h a d p u t to g e th e r y o u w il l s e e t h a t o n t h a t t a b l e t h a t th e r e ’s – th e s e c o n d p r o g r a m m e fr o m t h e t o p s a y s e n e r g y lo s s e s programme. 10 S o e n e r g y l o s s e s , th e r e ’s t w o ty p e s o f lo s s e s i n e l e c tr ic i ty, t e c h n ic a l lo s s e s . S o tr a n s m i t ti n g e l e c tr ic i ty o v e r l o n g d is t a n c e s y o u l o s e e l e c tr ic i t y th a t ’s w h y y o u h a v e s te p - u p tr a n s fo r m e r s t o s t e p - u p t h e v o lt a g e a g a in , s o th a t ’s te c h n i c a l l o s s e s , t h e n n o n t e c h n ic a l lo s s e s in c l u d e s e v e r y th i n g t h a t a r e i ll e g a l c o n n e c ti o n s , g h o s t v e n d i n g , w h a t e v e r y o u c a n th in k o f i s p a r t o f t h a t . CHAIRPERSON : M R P R E TO R I U S : J a o k a y. A n d t h e n j u s t u n d e r n e a t h , i n te g r a t e d d e m a n d m a n a g e m e n t i s a p r o g r a m m e c a l l e d p u b l i c s a f e ty. P u b lic s a fe ty is a le g a l r e q u ir e m e n t f o r E s k o m t h a t w e h a v e t o in f o r m th e p u b l ic o f t h e d a n g e r s o f e le c tr i c i ty s o t h a t p e o p le d o n ’ t c li m b p il e - o n s a n d to u c h 20 w ir e s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n a n d t h e p u b l ic s a f e ty c a m p a ig n d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly l o o k a t i ll e g a l c o n n e c t i o n s b u t u n s a f e c o n n e c ti o n s . S o b o th o f th o s e a r e a ls o c o v e r e d i n t h a t . S o i f t h e q u e s ti o n w a s , w h y d id w e n o t t a lk a b o u t t h is o n m o r n i n g l iv e , w e n e v e r g o t th e o p p o r t u n i ty b e c a u s e I s a id t o M r H o w a t h a t w e n e e d t o , th e n th e fi r s t 3 0 m i n u te s o f t h e p r o g r a m m e t h a t is b e i n g b r o a d c a s t n e e d s t o b e a n E s k o m Page 82 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r e p r e s e n t a tiv e talking on one of these t o p ic s but SABC w o u ld a l lo w that never a Eskom m a t e r i a lis e d . CHAIRPERSON : But of course r e p r e s e n t a tiv e t o c o m e a n d b e in t e r v ie w e d o n i s s u e s o f – s u c h is s u e s , p u b lic i n t e r e s t is s u e s I w o u l d i m a g i n e , m a y b e n o t a s r e g u l a r ly a s E s k o m w o u l d lik e b u t I w o u l d i m a g i n e th a t t h e y w o u ld b e in t e r e s t e d i n E s k o m c o n s c i e n t is i n g p e o p l e a b o u t , f o r e x a m p le s a v i n g e le c tr ic i ty a n d t a lk in g a g a i n s t il le g a l c o n n e c ti o n s a n d y o u k n o w b e i n g s a fe w i th e l e c tr ic i ty. 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir w e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h o n e o f th e B o a r d s o f t h e S A B C o f w h ic h t h e r e w e r e m a n y a n d a t t h a t B o a r d m e e t in g w e h a d p r e s e n t e d t h is a n d t h e B o a r d – s o r r y n o t t h e B o a r d , t h e Ex c o h a d a g r e e d o f t h e S A B C t h a t y e s , w e w ill o r t h e y w il l a n d t h e y w il l in c l u d e i t in t o th e D J ’s o r t h e o n - Ai r ta le n t ’s n a r r a tiv e s t a lk i n g a b o u t th e e l e c tr ic i t y s a f e t y, s a v in g e le c tr i c i ty e t c e t e r a , e t c e t e r a . U n f o r tu n a te ly, t h i n g s u n f o l d e d d i ffe r e n tl y a t S A B C s o t h a t a g r e e m e n t b e c a m e n u l l a n d v o i d b e c a u s e a n e w B o a r d – n e w m e m b e r s w e r e a p p o in t e d a n d th e n t h e w h o le d e b a c le a r o u n d th e S A B C t h a t y o u ’r e a w a r e o f I’ m s u r e . CHAIRPERSON : 20 D o y o u r e c a ll a r o u n d a b o u t w h e n t h o s e d is c u s s i o n s h a d b e e n … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. M R P R E TO R I U S : I ’ m t r y i n g to t h i n k w h o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s because…(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : Ye s b e c a u s e I t h in k M r M b ik i w a m e n ti o n e d t h e r e w a s a n e w B o a r d in 2 0 1 5 o r w a s i t M s H o f m e y r ? A D V M B I K I WA : I t w a s M s H o f m e y r, i t w a s a p p o i n te d a t th e e n d o f Page 83 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 2014 – December 2014. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , M m m . Does that more or less ring a bell in terms of…[intervenes]. M R P R E TO R I U S : J a i t c o u ld b e – i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h a t – a t t h a t ti m e , th e C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e w a s a l a d y w h o c a m e u p th r o u g h th e r a n k s a t S A B C , s h e u s e d t o w o r k a t E s k o m a n d t h a t ’s h o w I k n e w h e r. CHAIRPERSON : MR PRETORIUS: O k a y. A n d n o w h e r n a m e h a s ju s t – I ’ m n o t g o o d w it h n a m e s C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Mk o b o n o t M k o b o s o m e t h i n g . M R P R E TO R I U S : No. CHAIRPERSON : B u t y o u s a y t h e r e h a d b e e n d is c u s s i o n s b e t w e e n E s k o m a n d th e B o a r d o f S A B C a t a c e r t a in t i m e , p r e c i s e ly r e l a t i n g t o E s k o m b e in g g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty to t a lk a t S A B C a n d t a lk to th e p u b li c a b o u t e le c tr ic i ty s a v in g a n d s a fe t y a n d s o o n a n d o n a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s a n d t h a t d id n ’ t h a p p e n , e v e n t h o u g h a n a g r e e m e n t h a d b e e n r e a c h e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n e w B o a r d t h a t c a m e a n d t h i n g s to o k a d i ffe r e n t d ir e c t io n ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : And of course you were not going to pay anything or w e r e y o u g o in g to p a y a n y t h i n g w i th S A B C ? M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir t h i s is w h e r e th e r e w a s a l w a y s a c o n t e n t io u s is s u e b e t w e e n E s k o m a n d th e S A B C , w e s e e p u b li c s a f e ty a s a p u b lic s e r v ic e a n n o u n c e m e n t a P S A w h ic h w e s h o u l d n o t b e p a y in g fo r. T h e S A B C s a l e s p e o p l e w h o a r e t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e d e a l w i th h a v e c e r t a i n Page 84 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t a r g e ts to m a k e a n o r d e r f o r t h e m to g e t b o n u s e s . S o t h e P S A o r t h e p u b lic s e r v ic e a n n o u n c e m e n ts n e v e r w e n t a n y f u r t h e r. We had m e e ti n g s w it h th e E d u c a t io n D e p a r t m e n t w i t h i n t h e S A B C a r o u n d t h is , w e h a d a s k e d o u r C h a ir m a n to m e e t w i t h th e i r C h a i r m a n w h i c h h a d t a k e n p l a c e a n d th e y a g r e e d b u t i t n e v e r e v e r g o t i m p l e m e n te d . S o w e a l w a y s p a i d s o a l l o f t h e s e p r o g r a m m e s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : B u t n o t h i n g a n y w h e r e n e a r w h a t w e a r e l o o k in g a t h e r e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . M R P R E TO R I U S : 10 S o r r y C h a ir f o r i n t e r r u p ti n g it w o u ld b e m o r e t h a n what we spent here on New Age. CHAIRPERSON : Oh? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : O h t h a t’s – th a t c o m e s a s a s u r p r is e t o m e , o k a y a lr i g h t . A D V M B I K I WA : M r P r e t o r iu s c a n w e t h e n t u r n t o t h e fir s t c o n t r a c t th a t E s k o m e n te r e d in t o w i t h th e N e w A g e , y o u d e s c r ib e t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t b u t – s o r r y I’ d l ik e y o u t o g o t o t h e c o n tr a c t i ts e lf , t h a t ’s a t P P 6 o n p a g e 1 4 4 . M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s . Yo u ’l l s e e t h a t a t c la u s e s 1 a n d 2 t h e a d v e r t is i n g a n d b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s p o n s o r s h i p s c o m m i t m e n t s a r e s e t o u t , th a t ’s w h a t w e ’v e b e e n d is c u s s i n g , t h e R 4 m il li o n a n d th e R 7 . 1 m il li o n b u t w h a t I ’d lik e to r e f e r y o u t o is t o p a g e 1 4 9 , th a t ’s A n n e x u r e B . M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s . T h i s , a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t , is a ta b l e t h a t s e ts o u t h o w Page 85 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h e m i lli o n r a n d s is a r r i v e d a t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d c o u l d y o u g i v e u s y o u r c o m m e n t o n th e v a l u e s t h a t a r e a t tr ib u t e d t o e a c h o f t h e s e i te m s , t o S A B C l iv e c o v e r a g e , b r a n d n a m i n g , a d v e r ti s i n g c o v e r a g e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e S A B C li v e c o v e r a g e , R 6 2 7 0 0 0 is a b it lo w in m y o p i n i o n I c a n ’ t g i v e y o u th e e x a c t f i g u r e b e c a u s e I’ d h a v e t o c a lc u l a te i t per 30 seconds. A D V M B IK I WA : 10 It ’s lo w a s a v a l u e b u t it ’s R 6 2 7 0 0 0 t o o h i g h a s a n actual cost to TNA? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o b u t t h e y ’v e – E s k o m d i d n o t d e r i v e t h e v a l u e fr o m R 6 2 7 0 0 0 b e c a u s e t h e d is c u s s io n o n - a ir w a s n o t a b o u t E s k o m . S o in m y o p in io n th a t h a s n o r e l a ti o n t o Es k o m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V M B IK I WA : A n d – s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u , t h a t ’s p a r t ly b e c a u s e , a s y o u s a y, th e M i n i s t e r s w h o d i d s p e a k o r th e Es k o m r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s w h o d i d s p e a k a b o u t E s k o m s p o k e b e f o r e t h e b r o a d c a s t w a s a c t u a ll y televised? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s , s o t h e M in is t e r w o u l d b e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h a t e v e r, th e ir p o r t fo li o w o u l d b e . 20 T h e a d v e r t is in g c o v e r a g e o f R 3 7 7 0 0 0 t h a t w o u l d b e t h e a d v e r ts i n t h e N e w A g e , s o i t is v e r y d i ff ic u l t to d e te r m in e t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o a u d it e d b u r e a u o f c ir c u l a ti o n fi g u r e , it is very d i ff ic u l t to d e t e r m in e the cost of a d v e r t is in g , t h e c o s t o f a n a d v e r t i n th e N e w A g e . S o t h e N e w A g e h a d t a k e n a v e r y e x p e n s i v e m o d e l in c h a r g in g fo r a d v e r ti s i n g t h e r e b u t I d o n ’t b e l ie v e i n , a s a m a r k e t e r t h a t w e d e r i v e d a n y o f t h a t v a l u e fr o m Page 86 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h a t . T h e v e n u e h ir e w a s c o v e r e d b y t h e t ic k e t s a l e s , th e c a t e r i n g w a s c o v e r e d b y t h e tic k e t s a le s – s o r r y t h e e d i t o r i a l c o v e r a g e i s v a l u e d a t R 4 0 6 0 0 0 , th e r e w a s v e r y li t t le e d i t o r i a l c o v e r a g e . In the beginning t h e r e w a s o n t h e M i n i s te r b u t t h e r e a f te r – o n M in is t e r G i g a b a a n d D P E b u t t h e r e a f t e r t h e c o v e r a g e – t h e e d it o r ia l c o v e r a g e w a s n o t a b o u t E s k o m , i t w a s w h a t t h e M i n is t e r w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t . So that was a c t u a ll y to n o v a l u e t o E s k o m , t h e c a t e r i n g a s I s a id h a s b e e n – t h e y put a value for the banner at the back of – on the stage at R300 000, I h a v e n o id e a h o w t h e y d e r iv e d t h a t v a l u e . 10 R207 000, so they - T h e s u b s c r ip t io n s o f th e s u b s c r i p t i o n s e v e n tu a l ly w a s fr e e , th e y ju s t d r o p p e d i t a t o u r o ff ic e s a n d o t h e r p l a c e s , o ffi c e s a n d t h e t a b l e s – t h e t w o ta b l e s a n d t h e t w o g u e s t s is w h a t h e – J a c q u e s h a d g iv e n m e a n d s a y t h is is w h a t i t c o s ts . A D V M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u , to w r a p u p o n t h e f ir s t c o n tr a c t , c a n I j u s t c o n fir m in te r ms o f th e e x te n t t o w h i c h i t c o m p li e d o r th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h i t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o c o m p li e d w it h t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p o l ic y a t t h e ti m e . Wa s t h e r e a n a v a il a b l e b u d g e t b e f o r e i t w a s e n te r e d i n to ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : No. So how was it financed? I t w a s f in a n c e d , i n i t ia ll y f r o m m y m a r k e t i n g b u d g e t , s o t h e f ir s t c o u p le o f b r e a k f a s t s I p a id fo r fr o m t h e m a r k e ti n g b u d g e t b e f o r e I a p p li e d f o r m o r e m o n e y. A D V M B I K I WA : A n d y o u g a v e e v id e n c e e a r l ie r t h a t i n te r m s o f th e s p o n s o r s h i p p o lic y a p r o p o s a l l ik e th is w o u ld h a v e to b e a s s e s s e d a g a in s t t h e c r i t e r i a in t h e p o li c y, w a s i t e v e r a s s e s s e d ? Page 87 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : No it was not. A D V M B IK I WA : A n d w a s it e v e r s u b m i t t e d t o a s p o n s o r s h i p Committee? M R P R E TO R I U S : No it was not. A D V M B IK I WA : S o w o u l d it b e fa ir t o s a y i t d i d n ’ t c o m p ly w i th th e s p o n s o r s h i p p o l ic y a t a ll ? MR PRETORIUS: To b e f a ir I w o u l d h a v e to s a y it h a s t o g o th r o u g h t h e c r it e r i a a n d t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p r o fe s s i o n a ls i n m y d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d h a v e t o d o t h a t , b u t m y g u t f e e l te ll s m e th a t t h i s w o u l d n o t 10 have…[intervenes]. A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s s o r r y, M r P r e t o r i u s p e r h a p s i t’s th e w a y I p h r a s e d t h e q u e s t io n . I d o n ’t m e a n y o u to a p p ly t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p o lic y t o i t , I s i m p l y m e a n t h a t th e s p o n s o r s h i p p o lic y w a s n o t a p p li e d a t a ll ? M R P R E TO R I U S : No it wasn’t. A D V M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u , j u s t t h e la s t p o i n t o n t h e fir s t c o n t r a c t , y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it t h a t y o u r e p e a t e d ly r a is e d t h e c o n c e r n s a b o u t la c k o f v a l u e w i t h M r C h o e u t h e la c k o f v a lu e y o u w e r e g e t t in g fr o m t h e s e a g r e e m e n ts , c a n y o u t e l l u s h o w y o u r a is e d t h e s e c o n c e r n s a n d w h a t h is r e s p o n s e w a s ? 20 MR PRETORIUS: I t w a s m o s tly v e r b a l, I d o n ’t t h in k I s p e c i f ic a l ly p u t i t in w r i ti n g s o i n m y o n e - o n - o n e m e e ti n g s o n m y p o r t fo li o w i th M r C h o e u I w o u ld h a v e – I r a i s e d t h i s . M y c o n c e r n w a s t h a t t h i s w a s c o m i n g b a c k t o b i t e u s a n d t h e r e i s n ’ t p r o p e r g o v e r n a n c e f o ll o w e d , t h a t w a s m y b i g g e s t c o n c e r n in t e r n a ll y, a p a r t f r o m t h e f a c t t h a t w e w e r e n o t d e r iv i n g t h e v a l u e , i n te r n a l ly t h e r e w a s n ’ t t h e p r o p e r p r o c e s s b e in g f o l l o w e d a n d Page 88 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h a t is w h a t I r a i s e d w i th Mr C h o e u . Mr C h o e u ’s r e a c ti o n to th is w a s , o n c e a g a i n , o n a p r e v i o u s q u e s t io n t h a t t h e C h a ir a s k e d , P e t e r d o n ’ t fi g h t t h i s , i t ’s a lr e a d y h a p p e n i n g s o l e t ’s j u s t d o t h is b e c a u s e w e h a v e t o d o t h is . A D V M B I K I WA : O k a y I’ d lik e n o w t o m o v e o n t o w h a t y o u d e s c r i b e a s t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t . I t i s n ’ t n e c e s s a r y f o r u s t o d e a l w i t h t h is i n a n y th in g n e a r l e v e l o f d e t a i l t h a t w e d e a l t w it h t h e fir s t b e c a u s e – a n d c o r r e c t m e i f I’ m w r o n g , b u t I u n d e r s t a n d m a n y o f th e c o n c e r n s y o u h a v e w i t h th e fi s t c o n tr a c t w il l a p p ly e q u a ll y t o t h e s e c o n d ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : M o r e s o b e c a u s e b e t w e e n th e f ir s t a n d t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t w e s t a r te d g e t t in g P a r li a m e n ta r y q u e s t i o n s a r o u n d t h e N e w A g e a n d w e h a d t o a n s w e r t h o s e q u e s ti o n s a n d a s I p r e d i c t e d t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o g e t a b a c k la s h fr o m t h i s . A D V M B I K IWA : J a a n d I ’l l a d d r e s s th a t i n s o m e d e ta il in d u e c o u r s e . C a n w e j u s t d e a l w i th t h e q u e s ti o n o f a c c r e d i te d c ir c u l a ti o n fi g u r e s fr o m A B C ? C a n y o u s t a r t b y ju s t e x p la in i n g to m e w h a t c ir c u l a ti o n is a s opposed to readership? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o t h e c ir c u l a ti o n is t h e a c t u a l tr a n s a c ti o n th a t t a k e s p la c e , y o u b u y a n e w s p a p e r a n d y o u p a y a c e r t a i n a m o u n t f o r 20 t h a t n e w s p a p e r a n d t h a t ’s r e a d e r s h ip s o X a m o u n t o f p e o p le b u y th e n e w s p a p e r a n d t h a t is c ir c u l a ti o n . H o w e v e r, I t a k e t h a t n e w s p a p e r home and I have a wife and I have adult children who also read the newspaper and that becomes the readership. So most media owners, w h e n t h e y d o a p r e s e n ta t io n t o y o u , w h e th e r i t’s r a d i o , te l e v i s i o n o r p r i n t o r m a g a z in e s t h e y w ill s h o w y o u th e c i r c u l a ti o n v e r s u s t h e Page 89 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r e a d e r s h ip . T h e r e a d e r s h i p is n o t d e t e r m in e d b y A B C , t h e r e a d e r s h i p is d e t e r m in e d b y S A A F F o r A M P S w h ic h i s a b e h a v i o u r a l s t u d y th a t i s done on brands and media. S o A B C o n ly w o r k s w i th t h e a c tu a l tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t s o m e b o d y h a s b o u g h t, P e t e r h a s b o u g h t a n e w s p a p e r. A D V M B I K IWA : T h a t w o u l d g iv e y o u c ir c u la ti o n fi g u r e s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : S o w h e n th e N e w A g e d e s c r i b e s i ts e l f a s h a v i n g d is t r i b u t io n n u m b e r s o f 1 0 0 0 0 0 w h a t d o e s th a t r e f e r t o ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 10 Th a t r e f e r s t o o u ts i d e – t h e y c l a i m e d t h a t t h e y h a d s a l e s o f 3 9 0 0 0 , w e d o n ’t h a v e th e p r o o f o f th a t , th e y h a d a p r i n t r u n o f 1 0 0 0 0 0 . Fo r a d a il y n a t io n a l n e w s p a p e r t h a t ’s f a r to o li t tl e , I m e a n w e h a v e 5 2 m i ll io n p e o p le i n t h e c o u n t r y s o I m e a n , n o t e v e n th e S u n d a y Ti m e s w o u ld b e a b le t o d o t h a t o n a d a il y b a s is b u t t h e y c la i m e d t h a t t h e y h a d s o l d 3 9 0 0 0 c o p i e s a n d t h e r e s t w a s d e l iv e r e d t o E s k o m , S A B C , S A A , Tr a n s n e t a n d s o o n , s o i t w a s ju s t a d r o p a t o u r t u r n s ti l e s f o r i n s t a n c e a n d I’ d w a lk i n a n d I c o u ld o r c o u l d n o t ta k e it . A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s s o t h o s e n e w s p a p e r s a r e d r o p p e d o ff , f o r e x a m p le a t E s k o m a n d t h e y ’ r e d r o p p e d o ff fo r fr e e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 A D V M B IK I WA : Ye s . Now you said earlier that readers hip might be higher t h a n c ir c u l a ti o n w h e n y o u ’ v e g o t , f o r e x a m p l e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : I’ m s o r r y Mr M b ik i w a t h e “ f o r fr e e ” w a s t h a t f o r fr e e in t h e s e n s e t h a t th e s ta ff m e m b e r s c o u l d j u s t p i c k t h e m u p a n d n o t p a y for them? M R P R E TO R I U S : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 90 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : But it didn’t necessarily mean that Eskom was not p a y i n g f o r th o s e n e w s p a p e r s , d ir e c tly m a y b e t h e r e w a s a n i n d ir e c t p a y m e n t b u t d ir e c tly ? M R P R E TO R I U S : In i ti a l ly t h e r e w a s a c o n tr a c t b e tw e e n E s k o m a n d t h e N e w A g e w h e r e w e d i d p a y fo r t h e c ir c u l a ti o n , I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d i n t h a t s o I c a n ’ t r e a ll y c o m m e n t o n th a t , I ju s t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b u t t h e r e a f te r we said that we are no longer going to pay f o r t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d t h e n t h e y c a m e a n d th e y – a n d th a t ’s w h y Mr R o u x h a s i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e s u b s c r i p ti o n s i s p a r t o f t h e m i ll io n r a n d a n d 10 t h a t ’s R 2 0 7 0 0 0 t h a t t h e y – b u t it w a s a t t h e tu r n s t il e s s o e m p l o y e e s t o it f o r fr e e . CHAIRPERSONS: A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. A n d s o r r y, M r Pr e to r i u s t h e r e a d e r s h i p n u m b e r s m i g h t b e h i g h e r t h a n c i r c u l a ti o n n u m b e r s , w h e r e , f o r e x a m p l e a m e m b e r o f a f a m ily b u y s a n e w s p a p e r a n d e v e r y m e m b e r o f t h e f a m il y r e a d s i t . M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s . D o I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t c o r r e c tl y b u t i n a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e n e w s p a p e r s a r e d r o p p e d a t tu r n s t il e s , r e a d e r s h i p m ig h t , in f a c t b e , s ig n if ic a n tly lo w e r th a n t h e n u m b e r o f n e w s p a p e r s t h a t a r e d r o p p e d o ff 20 in t h a t w a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : I t c o u l d b e b e c a u s e p e o p le c o u l d t a k e t h e n e w s p a p e r s b e c a u s e th e y ’r e m o v in g a n d t h e y n e e d e d s o m e th i n g t o w r a p t h e ir g l a s s e s in . A D V M B I K IWA : CHAIRPERSON : In d e e d y e s . W h a t w a s y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n s i n t e r m s o f h o w m u c h Page 91 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 in t e r e s t t h e r e w a s a m o n g Es k o m s ta ff m e m b e r s i n t h e p u b li c a t io n o n a d a il y b a s is , a s s u m i n g t h a t w h e r e th e y w e r e d r o p p e d y o u c o u l d s e e w h e n y o u c a m e t o w o r k a n d w h e n y o u l e ft , d i d th e y s e ll l ik e h o t c a k e s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir, ja th e y w e r e – b y t h e e n d o f t h e d a y t h e r e w a s n o n e w s p a p e r l e f t , s o a t t h e t u r n s ti l e s w h e r e s ta ff g o t h r o u g h it , i t w a s ly i n g t h e r e s o s t a ff d id t a k e i t . CHAIRPERSON : T h e y d id t a k e t h e m ? M R P R E T O R I U S : A n d j a t h e q u e s t io n is , d id t h e y a c t u a ll y r e a d i t o r d i d they just page through it? 10 CHAIRPERSON : M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I d o n ’ t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON : J a o k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : A n d in te r m s o f w h o t h e N e w A g e w a s r e a c h i n g , c a n w e j u s t r e f e r t o y o u r a ff i d a v it a t p a r a g r a p h 5 9 .3 , t h a t ’s a t p a g e 1 8 , y o u s a y t h e r e t h a t t h e M e d i a S h o p y o u r m e d i a b u y in g a g e n c y d e t e r m i n e d d u r i n g 2 0 1 3 t h a t i t o n ly r e a c h e d 0 , 5 % o f t h e t o ta l p o p u la t io n o f L S M ’s 6 to 10 and that was the primary target market of 49M? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K I WA : 20 Ye s . A n d c a n w e m o v e t o th e t a b le t h a t’s b e l o w t h a t w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d w a s a ls o p r e p a r e d b y t h e M e d i a S h o p . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : C a n y o u e x p la in t o u s w h a t t h e t a b l e i s s a y in g a b o u t t h e N e w A g e c ir c u l a t i o n a n d r e a d e r s h ip n u m b e r s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e c i r c u l a ti o n a n d t h e fir s t c o lu m n y o u w il l s e e t h a t , t h a t ’s t h e c ir c u l a t i o n o f t h e v a r i o u s n e w s p a p e r s a n d y o u ’ ll s e e t h a t Page 92 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 u n d e r N e w A g e th a t is h i g h li g h te d t h e r e , t h e r e ’s n o a fi g u r e i n b e c a u s e it ’s n o t A B C a c c r e d i t e d . T h e 8 7 0 0 0 – t h e 3 9 0 0 0 s a l e s t h a t is n o w in c l u d i n g r e a d e r s h ip a n d t h a t r e s e a r c h w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e b y A M P S a n d th e C P T le a d e r s h i p is t h e c o s t p e r p o i n t, s o h o w m u c h d o e s it c o s t m e t o r e a c h o n e i n d iv i d u a l. As a m a r k e ti n g p e r s o n h o w m u c h a m I g o i n g to s p e n d to r e a c h o n e p e r s o n , s o y o u w i ll s e e t h e th ir d fr o m t h e t o p , t h e B u s i n e s s D a y i s a t R 2 7 6 . 4 7 w h e r e t h e N e w A g e is a t R 3 1 7 .0 0 . S o i t s i m p ly d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e i f y o u j u s t l o o k a t t h e c ir c u la t io n o f t h e B u s i n e s s D a y v e r s u s th e c ir c u l a ti o n a n d r e a d e r s h i p o f N e w A g e . 10 A D V M B I K I WA : D o I u n d e r s ta n d th e C P T r e a d e r s h ip c o l u m n t o e ffe c t iv e l y b e a k i n d o f c o s t e ff e c t iv e n e s s m e a s u r e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s . A n d t h a t t h e h i g h e r th e n u m b e r t h e l e s s c o s t e ffe c t iv e it is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d s o o n th a t ta b le t h e N e w A g e is th e l e a s t c o s t e ffe c t iv e fo r p u r p o s e s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. M R P R E TO R I U S : I t i s t h e l e a s t c o s t e ff e c ti v e b u t it d o e s n o t m e a n , ju s t t o c l a r i fy a n d fo r c o r r e c t n e s s s a k e , i t d o e s n o t m e a n th a t i f it is , 20 o n e d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r ily o n ly s e l e c t o n t h is , t h e m e d i u m y o u a r e g o i n g t o u s e t h e c o s t p e r p o i n t b e c a u s e i t a ls o d e p e n d s o n th e mi x , t h e m e d i a m ix t h a t y o u ’r e g o i n g t o u s e a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y. S o t h is is j u s t o n e in d i c a t o r p lu s th e b e h a v i o u r a l c o m p o n e n t n e e d s t o b e t a k e n i n to c o n s i d e r a ti o n . A D V M B I K I WA : Indeed thank you. Can we then move to the second Page 93 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 c o n tr a c t t h a t ’s entered i n to ? We spoke about m o n i to r i n g e v a l u a t i o n r e q u ir e m e n t s u n d e r th e s p o n s o r s h i p p o lic y. and A c o n tr a c t i s e n t e r e d i n to , t h e fi r s t c o n t r a c t a n d b e f o r e th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t i s e n t e r e d in t o h a s t h e r e b e e n a n y m o n i t o r i n g a n d e v a l u a t io n a s t o t h e s u c c e s s o f t h e f ir s t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K I WA : None. N o w a m a j o r d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e f ir s t c o n t r a c t a n d t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t is t h a t , w h e r e a s t h e f i r s t c o n tr a c t w a s b e t w e e n th e M e d i a S h o p a s E s k o m ’s a g e n c y a n d t h e N e w A g e . Es k o m w a s a d d e d a s 10 a p a r ty t o t h e s e c o n d c o n t r a c t , w h y is t h a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : So in the media business, the media owners and b u s i n e s s – a n d a g e n c y b u s i n e s s m e d i a a g e n c y b u s in e s s , w h e n t h e m e d i a a g e n c y b u y s m e d ia fr o m t h e m e d i a , t h e y h a v e 4 5 d a y s to p a y. T h e y p a y w i t h i n 4 5 d a y s th e y g e t th e ir d is c o u n t s a n d t h e ir c o m m i s s io n s a n d a l l o f th a t . S o M e d ia S h o p a p p li e d t h e s a m e r u l e t o th e N e w A g e a n d t h e N e w A g e th e n w a s n o t h a p p y w i t h t h is a r r a n g e m e n t b e c a u s e , a c c o r d i n g to t h e m i t w a s ta k i n g t o o l o n g a n d t h e y s o o n th e n i s s u e d , v ia t h e ir l a w y e r s , a le t t e r th a t th e y ’r e g o i n g t o t a k e M e d i a S h o p to C o u r t b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e n ’ t b e e n p a i d . Th e y a ls o a d d r e s s e d i t , M r C h a ir, t h a t 20 t h is h a s n o t b e e n p a i d s o f o r t h is t h e y w a n te d – in t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t t h e y w a n t e d Es k o m t o b e c o - r e s p o n s i b le fo r t h e p a y m e n ts b e c a u s e t h e y n e e d e d t h e p a y m e n ts a t a c e r ta i n t i m e . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t t h is c o n tr a c t u n l ik e th e fir s t c o n t r a c t d id i n f a c t , g o t o t h e s p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e , i t w a s t a b le d b e f o r e – o r a t l e a s t th e p r o p o s a l w a s t a b l e d b e f o r e t h e Page 94 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ja I think so yes. A D V M B I K I WA : W e ll c a n I r e fe r y o u t o a n A n n e x u r e t o Mr C h o e u ’s a ffi d a v i t , C h a ir w e h a v e n ’ t a d m i tt e d t h is a s a n E x h ib i t b u t i t is – it ’s , c a n w e c a l l i t p r o v is i o n a l ly M M 2 . CHAIRPERSON : W e ll y o u m i g h t n o t n e e d to d o t h a t , y o u m i g h t j u s t n e e d t o t e l l h i m w h a t is i n t h e a ffi d a v it i f t h a t w i ll a s s i s t h i m w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n i s . A D V M B I K I WA : 10 In - a t t a c h e d t o M r C h o e u ’s a ff id a v i t is a r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n o f th e 2 0 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 2 , it is a r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n f o r p u r p o s e s o f a s p o n s o r s h i p a g r e e m e n t a n d i t i n d ic a t e s t h a t i t h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d b y Mr C h o e u a n d Mr M t a k a ti , tw o m e m b e r s a n d t h a t t h e o t h e r ten members of that Committee all signed, not approved, do you r e m e m b e r t h is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I r e c a ll y e s . A D V M B IK I WA : S o d o I u n d e r s t a n d it c o r r e c t ly t h e n t h a t th e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u t i o n r e je c t e d t h e p r o p o s a l ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : CHAIRPERSON : Ye s t h e y d i d . B u t th a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n e v e r t h e l e s s e n te r e d i n to ? Ye s . How did that come to be…[intervenes]. J u s t r e m e m b e r t o r a i s e y o u r v o ic e s o th a t i t c a n b e c a p tu r e d , r e c o r d e d . M R P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON : I a p o l o g is e C h a ir. Ye s t h a n k y o u . Page 95 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : S o r r y, y e s I d o r e c a ll t h e r o u n d r o b i n a n d th e r e a s o n w h y t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o in s p i t e o f t h e r o u n d r o b i n w a s t h a t , o n c e a g a i n w e w e r e f o r c e d t o , w e w e r e t o ld , y o u w ill . S o m y o p i n i o n – p e r s o n a l o p in i o n w a s t h a t t h e N e w A g e w a s s u ffe r i n g fi n a n c i a l ly a n d t h a t’s w h y – t h e y w e r e n o t s e l li n g e n o u g h n e w s p a p e r s t o r u n a n e w s p a p e r a n d t h e y h a d n o w a y o f in c r e a s in g s a l e s . S o t h e S t a t e o w n e d e n ti ti e s w a s u s e d t o f u n d t h i s . CHAIRPERSON : S o t h i s t i m e a r o u n d c a n y o u t e l l m e m o r e a b o u t th e in s t r u c t i o n o r b e i n g f o r c e d t o d o t h is , h o w d i d t h a t – w h o d i d th is c o m e 10 fr o m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I t c a m e – I w a s i n s tr u c t e d b y Mr C h o e u w h o I a s s u m e d w a s i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e C h ie f E x e c u tiv e a n d t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e C h a i r ma n , t h e C h a ir m a n b y t h e M i n is t e r, I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t w e h a v e to d o t h is . CHAIRPERSON : B u t d o y o u h a v e a r e c o ll e c ti o n t h a t o n th is o c c a s i o n M r C h o e u d i d s a y a g a i n , w e h a v e t o d o t h is b e c a u s e w e a r e i n s t r u c t e d o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t b e c a u s e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e f o r e , y o u a s s u m e d th a t t h e r e w a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n t h i s t i m e a r o u n d t h a t th is a l s o s h o u l d b e d o n e , w h ic h i s w h i c h ? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : It ’s t h e l a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON : I t ’s t h e la t t e r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : J a I a s s u m e t h a t th is i s w h a t w e n e e d to d o a n d i n s p i t e o f th e r o u n d r o b i n t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y c o n tr a c t n e g o ti a ti o n s g o i n g o n b e t w e e n t h e p a r ti e s . CHAIRPERSON : S o th e p o s i ti o n w o u l d b e , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w fo r s u r e i f Page 96 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h e r e w a s a n in s t r u c t i o n o n th is o c c a s io n b u t a s fa r a s y o u p l a y e d , w h a t e v e r r o le y o u p la y e d y o u p la y e d o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i t w a s p a r t o f – t h e p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t i t w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h a d t o d o in li n e w i t h th e i n s tr u c t io n th a t h a d b e e n g iv e n e a r li e r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Yo u ’ll s e e C h a ir, t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t is c o - s ig n e d – t h is p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d t h e c o n tr a c t w a s M r C h o e u , s o m y a s s u m p ti o n w o u ld b e t h a t i t’s t h e s a m e – it f o l lo w e d t h e s a m e r o u t e . CHAIRPERSON : A D V M B I K I WA : 10 O k a y. C h a ir I s e e i t ’s a l m o s t t i m e f o r th e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t b u t i f I c o u l d h a v e o n e m o r e q u e s t io n b e c a u s e t h e o n e t h a t y o u ’ v e ju s t a s k e d le a d s i n to my n e x t o n e , w h i c h is , M r Pr e to r i u s I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d t o s i g n – t o b e th e s ig n a to r y t o th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : M R P R E TO R I U S : A D V M B I K IWA : M R P R E TO R I U S : B u t y o u r e f u s e d o n p r i n c i p l e to d o s o ? I refused. Why did you refuse? B e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t t o b e a s s o c i a t e d w it h th e New Age and I had, subsequent to – w e ll g a t h e r i n g fr o m t h e P a r li a m e n ta r y q u e s ti o n s a n d th e d is c u s s i o n t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n t h e 20 c o u n tr y a t th a t t i m e , s ta r t e d t o r e a li s e t h a t th is i s li n k e d t o t h e G u p t a ’s . S o I d i d n o t w a n t t o b e p a r t o f t h a t. A D V M B I K IWA : CHAIRPERSON : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w e c a n p ic k t h a t u p a f t e r l u n c h . A n d w h o g a v e th e i n s tr u c ti o n th a t y o u r e f u s e d w a s it Mr Choeu? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o , n o b o d y g a v e m e th e i n s tr u c ti o n I … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 97 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : M R P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON : Yo u t o o k t h e s t a n d t h a t y o u a r e n o t p r e p a r e d ? Ye s C h a ir. A n d th e n y o u w e r e l e f t a lo n e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ja. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, t h a n k y o u , w e ’ ll ta k e t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t, w e ’l l r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e . 10 A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Pr e to r i u s b e fo r e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e d e a li n g w it h t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d y o u w e r e e x p l a i n i n g t h a t y o u t o o k th e p o s i t io n t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t s ig n i t . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d t h a t M r Pr e t o r i u s d i d s ig n i t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d t h a t c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lu d e d i n N o v e m b e r o f 2 0 1 2 ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . 20 A D V M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s – w h a t w a s i n c l u d e d i n th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t? M R P R E TO R I U S : O n l y t h e b r e a k f a s ts . A D V M B I K IWA : J u s t b r e a k f a s t s a n d h o w m a n y ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 4 . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. C a n I Page 98 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : S o u n d e r t h e n e w – u n d e r t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t o n ly t h e b r e a k fa s t s w e r e c o v e r e d n o t a d v e r tis e m e n t i n t h e N e w A g e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o b e c a u s e th e y a c t u a ll y in t h e s a m e f in a n c i a l y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MR PRETORIUS: S o w e h a d o r i g i n a l ly s c h e d u le d s ix b r e a k f a s t s a n d t h e n a s k e d f o r a n a d d i – t h e r e w a s a n a d d i ti o n a l fo u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : Ye s c a n I r e fe r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 7 0 o f p a g e 2 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t ? T h a t – th a t s e ts o u t t h e – t h e b r e a k f a s t s t h a t w e r e in c l u d e d a s p a r t o f t h e – t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t . M r Pr e t o r i u s a c c o r d i n g t o o u r r e c o r d s th e r e i s o n e b r e a k f a s t t h a t is m is s i n g fr o m t h a t t a b l e . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V M B I K IWA : W h i c h o n e is th a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t w a s – n o t h e r e w a s o n ly t h r e e b r e a k fa s t s t h a t t o o k p l a c e i n t h e e n d . I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly – m y m e m o r y s e r v e d m e – the fourth one did not take place. 20 A D V M B I K I WA : T h e – t h e – w e w i ll c o m e t o i t i n a m o m e n t b u t t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t w a s g iv e n t o t h e P u b li c P r o te c to r i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e w a s a b r e a k f a s t th a t – a t w h i c h A c e M a g a s h u l e s p o k e o n th e 6 M a r c h 2013. M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t i s c o r r e c t y o u – s o r r y m y m e m o r y i s a b it – ja – you are correct. Ye s . Page 99 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K I WA : B e f o r e w e m o v e o n t o t h e t h ir d – t h ir d c o n tr a c t w h i c h w a s c o n c lu d e d i n 2 0 1 4 o f M a y 2 0 1 4 . I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t – w e ll p e r h a p s h e l p m e w i t h t h is ? W h e n d i d n e g o ti a ti o n s b e g i n f o r a s u b s e q u e n t c o n tr a c t a f te r t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e s e c o n d c o n t r a c t ? M R P R E T O R I U S : T h e n e g o ti a ti o n s fo r c o n tr a c t o r fo r a n o th e r c o n tr a c t o r c o n t in u a ti o n o f th e c o n t r a c t w a s o n g o i n g . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : M r H o w a a n d h is s a l e s p e o p l e w e r e t h e r e o n q u i te r e g u la r b a s is o r i n c o n t a c t w i t h u s b y e m a i l o r w i th M r Pr e to r i u s i n f a c t . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : R i g h t. M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e y d id – a t th a t p o i n t t h e y d i d n o t s p e a k t o m e anymore. A D V M B I K I WA : A n d a t s o m e p o i n t a f te r t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t y o u p r e p a r e d a p r e s e n ta t io n th a t m o ti v a t e d f o r t h e – t h e T N A p r o p o s a l t o b e s u b m it t e d t o th e s p o n s o r s h i p c o m m i t te e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V M B I K I WA : Th e C A D M a n c o C o m m i t t e e . Can I refer you to that p r e s e n t a ti o n ? I t is a t p a g e 7 5 4 o f M M 1 a . 7 5 4 . M R P R E TO R I U S : O f M M 1 ? 20 A D V M B I K I WA : Of MM1a. T h e s a m e fi l e t h a t y o u r a ff i d a v i t is c o n ta in e d i n . M R P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : I a p o l o g is e it is M M 1 b . It is M M 1 b I a p o l o g is e . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is B ja . A D V M B I K IWA : I a p o l o g is e . Page 100 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : 714? A D V M B I K IWA : 7 5 4 . CHAIRPERSON : 754. M R P R E TO R I U S : P a g e 7 5 4 s o r r y. A D V M B I K IWA : P a g e 7 5 4 . I m a d e a n e r r o r i t is M M 1 b . M R P R E TO R I U S : O h o k a y s o r r y. A D V M B I K IWA : H a v e y o u g o t t h e p l a c e Mr Pr e t o r i u s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Yo u lo o k in g a t t h e s e c o n d c o n – n o th e p r e s e n t a t io n . Sorry I am a bit lost. Page 77? 10 A D V M B I K IWA : 7 5 4 . M R P R E TO R I U S : H e y I s h o u l d h a v e – o k a y s o r r y I h a v e g o t i t . A D V M B I K IWA : Yo u h a v e g o t i t? M R P R E TO R I U S : J a . A D V M B I K IWA : D o y o u r e m e m b e r th is p r e s e n ta t io n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I d o i n d e e d . A D V M B I K I WA : Could you explain to us what the purpose of this p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e o f th e p r e v i o u s c o n tr a c ts a n d th e c o n tr a c t o r th e c o n t in u o u s p r e s s u r e o n E s k o m t o c o n t i n u e w i th t h e N e w A g e 20 b r e a k f a s t s I w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e h a d a p r o c e s s o r h a d fo ll o w e d a p r o c e s s f o r th e s u b s e q u e n t N e w A g e b r e a k fa s t s . A l t h o u g h I d id n o t s u p p o r t th e m I w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a s c o r p o r a t e a ff a ir s a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r m y b o s s is c o v e r e d i n te r m s o f t h is . A n d th is w a s m y s u g g e s t io n t o h i m to m a k e t h is p r e s e n ta t io n b u t t o m a k e i t a s o p e n a n d f a ir a n d s t a t e th e f a c t s . S o y o u w i ll s e e o n p a g e 7 5 8 t h e s a m e ta b le Page 101 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h a t w e lo o k e d a t e a r l ie r. A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t t h e m o s t e x p e n s i v e o n 7 5 9 th e r e p e n e tr a t io n h a s t h e m 6 t o 1 0 a n d s o o n . S o t h is w a s t h e w h o le p o i n t o f – o f t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d then m y r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w e r e t h a t i t is not recommended and then I sub… A D V M B I K IWA : S o r r y th a t is o n p a g e 7 6 6 . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s s o r r y a p o lo g ie s . Page 766. T h is w a s t h e r e a s o n s w h y I d i d n o t r e c o m m e n d it . S o ju s t t o i n t e r r u p t m y s e l f f o r a 10 s e c o n d h e r e . A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e th e E s k o m s tr u c tu r e w a s a l i t tl e b i t d i ff e r e n t t h a n w h a t i t w a s b e f o r e i t i s c h a n g i n g n o w. W e a s c o r p o r a t e a ffa ir s w e r e r e p o r t in g t o E n te r p r is e R is k a n d M R P R E TO R I U S w h o w a s r e p o r t in g t o M s J o h n s o n w h o w a s t h e G r o u p E x e c u ti v e f o r a n u m b e r o f – o r d i v is i o n s . S o s h e a ls o h a d h e r o w n E X C O w i th h e r d ir e c t r e p o r ts a n d I m a d e o n p a g e 7 6 7 I m a d e – I s a i d i f y o u s ti ll f e e l t h a t t h i s n e e d s t o g o f u r th e r th e n t h a t w o u ld b e m y s u g g e s ti o n i n t e r m s o f a p r e s e n t a ti o n to th e E n te r p r is e D e v e l o p m e n t E X C O a n d th e n t h e c o n tr a c t c o u ld b e c o n c lu d e d b e t w e e n E s k o m a n d th e N e w A g e d ir e c t ly a s n o t to in v o lv e th e m e d i a a g e n c y. 20 A D V M B I K I WA : h a p p e n in g on O k a y s o j u s t h e l p u s t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e – w h a t is 766 and 767? 766 seems to contain a c le a r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t th e s p o n s o r s h i p i s n o t r e c o m m e n d e d f o r th e f o ll o w i n g r e a s o n s . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . ADV M B I K I WA : And it says it does Page 102 of 170 not meet the m in i m u m 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r e q u ir e m e n t s . T h e r e i s a r e p u t a ti o n a l r i s k . C i r c u l a ti o n r e m a i n s a n is s u e a n d t h e a m o u n t o f m o r e t h a n R 8 0 0 m il li o n is e q u iv a l e n t t o w h a t is s p e n t a c r o s s m e d i a – o t h e r m e d i a o r g a n is a ti o n s . S o th e r e s e e m s to b e a c l e a r r e c o m m e n d a t io n o n p a g e 7 6 6 n o t t o r e c o m m e n d i t . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : B u t t h e n o n 7 6 7 w i th t h e h e a d i n g R e s o l u t i o n R e q u ir e d the r e s o l u ti o n is that CAD Manco recommends th e f o ll o w i n g r e s o l u ti o n s . S o j u s t e x p l a i n w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t s li d e w a s ? MR 10 P R E TO R I U S : So if you lo o k at page 766 that is my r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w h ic h I p u t to g e th e r f o r t h is p r e s e n ta t io n t h a t I d o n o t s u p p o r t t h is . A n d t h a t w a s – I m a d e i t v e r y, v e r y c l e a r i n m y r e f u s a l t o s ig n t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t a s w e l l . B u t I s a i d t h a t t h e r e is c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e a s i tu a ti o n m a y a r i s e th a t y o u d o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly o r – a s t a k e h o l d e r o p p o r tu n it y m a y a r is e w h ic h y o u m a y n o t w a n t – t h a t d o e s n o t m e e t t h e n e c e s s a r y c r i t e r ia b u t t h e n s t a k e h o ld e r is i m p o r t a n t a n d t h e r e f o r e y o u w i ll th e n c o n s i d e r i t a s s tr a t e g ic o f – i n n a t u r e . S o I w a s u s e – tr y u s i n g th a t li n e . S o p a g e 7 6 7 w a s m y s u g g e s ti o n t o M R P R E TO R I U S t o s a y i f y o u f e e l t h a t y o u s ti ll n e e d e d to t a k e t h i s t o E n t e r p r is e D e v e l o p m e n t E X C O t h e n u s e t h is s li d e a s t h e r e s o l u t i o n . 20 T h e n l e t t h e m m a k e th e d e c is i o n t h a t i t is s tr a t e g ic o f n a t u r e a n d t h a t w e w il l g o a h e a d w it h t h is . A t l e a s t th e n y o u h a v e i t s o m e w h e r e o n m i n u t e d t h a t t h e y h a v e m a d e t h e d e c is i o n a n d i t i s n o t y o u a l o n e t h a t h a v e m a d e th e d e c is io n . A D V M B I K I WA : Okay I understand. Wa s th is p r e s e n t a ti o n e v e r s u b m i tt e d t o o r p r e s e n t e d a t M a n c o ? Page 103 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : I s u b m i t te d i t t o M R P R E TO R I U S a n d h e d id n o t w a n t u s to p r e s e n t i t. A D V M B I K IWA : S o i t w a s n e v e r p r e s e n t e d ? MR PRETORIUS: No. A D V M B I K IWA : B e f o r e M a n c o . M R P R E TO R I U S : N o it w a s n o t p r e s e n t e d . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h y d i d h e s a y h e d i d n o t w a n t to p r e s e n t it ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I a m n o t s u r e w h y. Probably because it – I do not k n o w. I h a v e t o – I w o u ld h a v e t o s p e c u l a t e . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : B u t h e d i d n o t g iv e y o u a r e a s o n a t th e ti m e h e j u s t s a i d h e w o u l d n o t p r e s e n t i t? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o n th e r e a s o n s y o u g a v e i n th e p r e s e n t a ti o n f o r n o t s u p p o r t in g t h e – th e – o r n o t r e c o m m e n d i n g t h e s p o n s o r s h i p d i d h e h a v e a n y i s s u e s w it h y o u r r e a s o n s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e n e v e r d is c u s s e d i t – t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n C h a ir. I e m a i l e d it t o M R P R E TO R I U S . CHAIRPERSON : To h i m . Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d h e a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e c o m m i t t e e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : It i s h i s d e c i s i o n w h e t h e r h e w a n ts to p u t i t o n o r not. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n t u r n t o th e – t o t h e th ir d c o n tr a c t a n d t h a t a p p e a r s fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v it fr o m p a r a g r a p h 7 2 o n p a g e 2 1 . N o w w e – Page 104 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w e d is c u s s e d e a r li e r t h a t t h e fi r s t c o n tr a c t w a s b e t w e e n t h e M e d i a S h o p a n d t h e N e w A g e . T h e s e c o n d c o n t r a c t w a s b e tw e e n t h e M e d ia Shop and Eskom and the New Age. T h e t h ir d c o n tr a c t w a s d ir e c tly b e t w e e n Es k o m a n d th e N e w A g e i t d i d n o t in c l u d e t h e M e d ia S h o p a t a l l. W h y w a s th a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d i n – i n t h i s d is c u s s io n . A t t h is p o i n t i n ti m e I w a s c o m p l e t e ly e x c l u d e d f r o m – h a p p il y e x c l u d e d f r o m a n y i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h th e N e w A g e . S o I w a s n o t e v e n a w a r e o f t h is c o n tr a c t u n t il i t w a s s i g n e d . S o t h e y d e c i d e d t o a n d I s a y t h e y – I a m 10 n o t s u r e w h o t h e y w e r e o r th e y a r e t o n e g o ti a te i t d ir e c t ly b e tw e e n E s k o m a n d T N A a n d th a t i s w h a t T N A w a n t e d r i g h t fr o m t h e s t a r t . A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h e y d i d n o t w a n t a th ir d p a r ty in v o lv e d . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d y o u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e e x c l u d e d f r o m t h e p r o c e s s – y o u p la y e d n o r o l e r e a lly i n th e n e g o t ia t io n s . Why were you e x c lu d e d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I c a n o n ly s p e c u la t e o n c e a g a in a n d t h a t is t h a t b e c a u s e I m a d e i t a b u n d a n t ly c le a r t h a t I d o n o t w a n t t o b e p a r t o f th is b e c a u s e t h i s is n o t k o s h e r. A n d R 4 3 m il l io n a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e w a s 20 m o r e th a n m y e n ti r e b u d g e t – m a r k e ti n g b u d g e t a ft e r i t w a s c u t . S o I c o u l d h a v e d o n e fa r b e tt e r w i t h R 4 3 m il l io n i n th e m a r k e t in g b u d g e t t h a n p a y i n g f o r N e w A g e b r e a k fa s t s . A D V M B I K IWA : C a n w e d e a l w it h th a t i s s u e o f t h e b u d g e t ? k n o w w h e t h e r th e th ir d c o n tr a c t w a s b u d g e t e d f o r ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o it w a s n o t . N o t to m y k n o w l e d g e . Page 105 of 170 Do you 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K I WA : A n d w a s i t s u b m i tt e d t o t h e – t o t h e s p o n s o r s h i p c o m m i t t e e o r C A D M a n c o f o r [i n d i s t i n c t ]? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o it w a s n o t . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h o s i g n e d th a t c o n tr a c t o n b e h a l f o f E s k o m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : M r C o l li n M a tj il a . A D V M B I K I WA : Yo u r e fe r a t p a r a g r a p h 7 7 t h a t is o n p a g e 2 2 to a r e p o r t – to a r e v i e w c o n d u c te d b y S iz w e N t s a l u b a G o b o d o ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : 10 W h ic h r e v i e w e d th e p r o c e s s o f t h e t h i r d c o n tr a c t . W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t r e p o r t a t t h e ti m e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A t th e – s o r r y a t ? A D V M B I K I WA : A t th e t i m e i t w a s p u b li s h e d s o r r y – in N o v e m b e r o f 2 0 1 4 w h e n i t w a s – w h e n i t w a s p u b lis h e d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W h e n th e G o b o d o I w a s a w a r e – I w a s a w a r e b u t I d i d n o t h a v e a c o p y o f i t b u t I w a s a w a r e t h a t th e r e w a s a n a u d i t d o n e on this. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d w h a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f i ts k e y fi n d i n g s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : W e ll t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s a c t u a l ly – i t – t h e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e d i d n o t h a v e th e a u t h o r i t y t o s i g n th e c o n tr a c t s o i t w a s d o n e 20 o u t s i d e o f th e g u i d e l in e s w i t h i n E s k o m . S o ju s t to m a k e – e x p la i n i t a li t tl e b i t fu r t h e r it is j u s t th a t a l o t o f p e o p l e f i n d P h a k a m a n i o r Br ia n D a m e s w h o e v e r t h e C h i e f E x e c u ti v e i s i t is n o t d i ffi c u l t to f i n d t h e e m a i l address. A n d t h e y f o r w a r d t h i s t h e ir r e q u e s t d ir e c tly t o h i m o r h e r w h a t e v e r t h e c a s e m a y b e . A n d t h e p r o c e s s i s it d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h e r e a s p o n s o r s h i p c o m e s i n fr o m w h e th e r i t is fr o m t h e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o r Page 106 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s o m e b o d y fa r l o w e r d o w n it n e e d s t o c o m e t o t h e s p o n s o r s h ip d e s k fi r s t f o r e v a lu a ti o n . A n d t h a t i s t h e s ta r t in g p o in t o f a l l o f t h e s p o n s o r s h ip s w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a t i o n . E v e r y s i n g le o n e . A n d w e k e e p a r e g is t e r o f e v e r y s in g l e s p o n s o r s h ip th a t c o m e s i n a n d t h e r e s p o n s e w e h a v e g iv e n . A D V M B I K IWA : C a n I ta k e y o u to t h e – t o t h a t S N G R e v i e w ? I t is a t page 208. M R P R E TO R I U S : S a m e fi l e ? Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u c a n t h e n g o f o r w a r d t o p a g e 2 3 1 w h ic h is 10 w h e r e th e c o n c l u s i o n s a r e c o n ta in e d . A t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 6 1 s u b p a r a g r a p h a e ffe c t iv e l y r e fl e c ts w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t d e s c r i b e d w h ic h is t h a t M r M a t jil a e x c e e d e d h is a u t h o r i ty. M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : B u t c a n I a s k y o u a b o u t o v e r t h e p a g e o n 2 3 2 w h ic h i s – a n d s u b p a r a g r a p h c . T h a t a c o n tr a c t w it h o u t t h e t e r m i n a t io n c la u s e w a s u l ti m a t e l y c o n c l u d e d . D i d y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t th a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I d i d n o t k n o w b u t t h a t i s n o t E s k o m ’s s t a n d a r d p r a c ti c e . T h e r e i s a l w a y s a t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e . A n d in fa c t E s k o m o n l y e n t e r s i n to e n a b l in g a g r e e m e n ts . 20 B e c a u s e o f th e v o l a til i ty o f o u r b u s i n e s s a n d b u d g e t t h a t w e i n – h a v e e n a b li n g a g r e e m e n ts s o m a k e u s e o f y o u w h e n w e c a n o r n e e d t o a n d t h e n i f w e d o n o t n e e d t o th e n w e d o n o t m a k e u s e o f i t . S o th e r e i s n o f e e t h a t is b e i n g p a i d . B u t t h e r e i s a lw a y s a n e x i t c l a u s e . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d w e r e y o u a w a r e a s i n d ic a te d in s u b - p a r a g r a p h D t h a t th e – t h a t th e t e r m i n a ti o n c l a u s e w a s r e m o v e d p u r s u a n t t o Page 107 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n M R P R E TO R I U S a n d M r A d a m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. M R P R E TO R I U S : I w a s n o t a w a r e . A D V M B I K I WA : on? C a n I t h e n t a k e y o u t o p a g e 2 3 4 i t is j u s t t w o p a g e s A n d t h a t is t h e S N G R e p o r ts r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a n d i t m a k e s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s in r e l a ti o n t o M r M a tj il a a n d o v e r t h e p a g e i t m a k e s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s in r e l a ti o n to MR P R E TO R I U S . The – the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a r e e ff e c t iv e l y th a t c o r r e c ti v e a c t i o n s h o u l d b e t a k e n 10 a g a in s t t h e m . D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r a n y c o r r e c tiv e a c t io n w a s t a k e n a g a in s t t h e m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o t t o m y k n o w l e d g e . A D V M B IK I WA : A n d y o u i n d ic a te a t p a r a g r a p h 8 0 o f y o u r – o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t th a t i n Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 t h e Es k o m b o a r d r e s o lv e d t o r a t i fy th e t h ir d c o n tr a c t . M R P R E TO R I U S : I – ja – I b e l ie v e s o . A D V M B IK I WA : A n d o n e o f t h e r e s o l u t io n s o f th e – o f t h a t b o a r d r e s o l u ti o n w a s th a t C A D s h o u l d b e i n s tr u c t e d to e n s u r e t h a t m a x i m u m v a l u e w a s d e r i v e d fr o m th e c o n tr a c t? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : D i d y o u k n o w a b o u t t h e r e s o l u ti o n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I w a s in f o r m e d o f t h a t a f t e r t h e f a c t . A D V M B I K I WA : W h a t s t e p s d id C A D t a k e t o e x tr a c t m a x i m u m v a l u e fr o m t h e c o n tr a c t? M R P R E TO R I U S : I c a n o n ly s p e a k fo r my d e p a r t m e n t a n d th a t is Page 108 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 S tr a t e g ic M a r k e t in g w e d i d n o t h i n g . A D V M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d l ik e – I w o u l d n o w l ik e to t u r n to t h e p a r l i a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s w h ic h is a s u b j e c t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d to o n a few occasions. Yo u e x p l a i n t h a t E s k o m r e c e iv e d a n u m b e r o f p a r l ia m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s r e g a r d i n g i ts r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th T N A . I do not in t e n d t o t r a v e r s e e v e r y o n e o f t h e m b u t i f w e c a n b e g i n a t p a r a g r a p h 8 5 w h e r e y o u r e fe r to a p a r li a m e n ta r y q u e s ti o n o n t h e 1 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 . A n d j u s t t o o r ie n ta t e y o u i n ti m e t h a t is a b o u t a w e e k a ft e r th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t is s i g n e d . C a n I a s k y o u t o – t o g o to t h a t q u e s ti o n ? 10 I t is in B u n d l e M M 1 b a n d i t i s a t p a g e 6 6 1 . D o y o u h a v e i t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I d o . A D V M B I K I WA : I t i s a q u e s ti o n f r o m M r L e e to t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s . T h e f ir s t q u e s ti o n a s k s w h e th e r h is d e p a r t m e n t o r a n y e n t i ty r e p o r t in g t o h i m p l a c e d a n y a d v e r ti s e m e n ts in t h e N e w A g e a n d t h e n a s k s w h e n t h e a d v e r t is e m e n t s w e r e p l a c e d ? What the nature of t h e a d v e r tis e m e n ts w e r e a n d w h a t th e s p e n d w a s . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . ADV M B IK I WA : The second one asks whether any of th e s e a d v e r t is e m e n ts w e r e p l a c e d t h r o u g h G o v e r n m e n t C o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d 20 I n f o r m a t io n S y s t e m G C I S . T h e th ir d a s k s w h e t h e r a n i n d e p e n d e n t a n a ly s is w a s c o n d u c t e d p r i o r t o p l a c in g a d v e r tis e m e n ts t o a s c e r t a i n w h e t h e r t h e N e w A g e i s r e a d b y t h e i n te n d e d m a r k e t , if n o t, w h y n o t ? I f s o w h o c o n d u c te d th e a n a ly s i s a n d w h a t w e r e t h e m a i n f in d in g s a n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ? A n d f o u r th w e r e t h e r e a n y in d e p e n d e n t s tu d ie s o f s a i d a d v e r ti s e m e n ts w e r e c o n d u c t e d t o a s c e r t a i n w h e t h e r th e y w e r e Page 109 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 e ffe c t iv e i n t h e r e l e v a n t ta r g e t m a r k e t , i f n o t , w h y n o t ? A n d s i m il a r q u e s t io n s a ft e r th a t . C a n I a s k y o u t h e n t o t u r n t o p a g e 6 6 3 ? T h is is a n e m a il fr o m P h in d i e M a b e n a a n d s h e s a y s : “ G o o d a f t e r n o o n , p le a s e f in d a tt a c h e d a P Q f o r y o u r u r g e n t a t t e n t i o n . W e k n e w t h e r e w o u l d b e fo ll o w - u p s b u t I g u e s s o u r e s t i m a t e d t i m e o f e a r ly 2 0 1 3 w a s t o o generous. Here we go again w i th the TN A q u e s t io n s .” W h a t – d o y o u k n o w w h a t th a t is a r e f e r e n c e to ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : W e l l e s s e n t i a ll y w h a t M r M a b e n a i s a d m i t ti n g t o is t h a t w e h a d n o n - s to p q u e s ti o n s a b o u t th e N e w A g e a n d d i ffe r e n t fo r ms a n d d i ff e r e n t f o r m a t s a n d d i ff e r e n t c o n fi g u r a ti o n s s o t h is is w h a t s h e is r e fe r r i n g to t h a t t h e – a n o t h e r q u e s t i o n h a s a r r i v e d . They e xpect or s h e e x p e c t e d I a m g a t h e r i n g fr o m th is e m a i l t h a t t h e y w e r e o n l y e x p e c te d t h e q u e s ti o n s t o b e a s k e d e a r ly in 2 0 1 3 w h e n p a r li a m e n t w o u ld h a v e o p e n e d . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n f u r t h e r u p th e p a g e M r M o r e mi fo r w a r d s i t t o you and asks you to look into i t. M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . 20 A D V M B I K I WA : Wa s th a t – w a s t h a t t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e t h a t y o u w o u l d d o t h e n e c e s s a r y w o r k to p r e p a r e t h e r e s p o n s e t o t h e p a r l i a m e n t a r y q u e s t io n s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : J a Ms – b e c a u s e i t is a n a d v e r ti s i n g a n d i n – Mr M o r e m i ’s s tr u c tu r e I w a s s tr a t e g i c m a r k e t i n g i n it i a t iv e s r e p o r ti n g t o h i m s o h e w o u l d h a v e s e n t i t t o m e n o r m a l ly, y e s . Page 110 of 170 T h is w a s – t h e r e I a 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 f o r m a l p a r l i a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n p r o c e s s w i t h i n E s k o m a n d p o li c y in p l a c e n o w w h ic h I a m t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f c o r p o r a t e a ffa ir s i n a n y e v e n t . But ja he – that would have been normal. A D V M B I K I WA : C a n I th e n a s k y o u to g o t o p a g e 6 6 6 ? A n d t h i s i s a n e m a i l fr o m y o u t o L a iz a Z ik a l a la , w h o i s t h a t? M R P R E TO R I U S : S h e w a s th e b u s in e s s u n i t d ir e c to r th a t t o o k o v e r fr o m M r D e p o k o . A D V M B I K IWA : A t th e M e d i a S h o p ? M R P R E TO R I U S : A t th e M e d i a S h o p y e s . 10 A D V M B IK I WA : A n d y o u e m a i l M s Z ik a l a l a a n d y o u a s k f o r e ff e c ti v e ly h e l p i n a n s w e r i n g t h e f o u r q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : Can we go then back to 665? T h is i s j u s t f o ll o w i n g c h r o n o lo g y o f t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . A n d M s Z ik a l a la r e s p o n d s a n d it is t h e s e r e s p o n s e s t h a t I w o u l d l ik e to – t o g o t h r o u g h . C o u ld y o u r e a d P o in t 3 f o r u s ? M R P R E TO R I U S : “ I h a v e s p o k e n t o D o n a l d w h e n T N A i n it i a l l y w e c o u ld n o t d o a n a n a ly s i s o n t h e p a p e r a s i t h a s n o t b e e n 20 measured by the ABC nor by AM PS. D o n a l d ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b a c k th e n w a s n o t t o a d v e r ti s e i n the paper as we have no research on it. Donald was t h e n i n s tr u c t e d t o a d v e r t is e i n th e p a p e r a n d s p e n d a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o f m o n e y. e x e c u te d as per E s k o m ’s T h e i n s tr u c t io n w a s r e q u e s t. Page 111 of 170 Since th e 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 n e w s p a p e r h a s b e e n – s in c e t h e n th e n e w s p a p e r h a s b e e n m e a s u r e d b y A M P S w h ic h I j u s t r e m i n d y o u i s b e h a v io u r a l r e s e a r c h . The numbers are not looking g o o d th e y h a v e 3 9 0 0 0 r e a d e r s c o m p a r e d t o t h e C i t iz e n 5 0 8 0 0 0 r e a d e r s , t h e S t a r 6 4 3 0 0 0 r e a d e r s . S o w e c a n d o a n a n a ly s is f o r y o u b u t i t w ill n o t l o o k good. The newspaper has never been our r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .” A D V M B I K IWA : 10 Thank you. A n d t h e n – a n d th e n P o i n t 4 w h e r e M s Zi k a l a l a s a y s : “ We cannot do an a d v e r t is i n g e ff e c ti v e n e s s m e a s u r e .” J u s t to r e m in d y o u th is i s in r e s p o n s e t o a p a r l i a m e n t a r y q u e s t io n a s k in g w h e th e r a n y i n d e p e n d e n t s t u d i e s h a v e b e e n d o n e t o d e t e r m in e w h e t h e r t h e b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s ts h a v e b e e n e ff e c t iv e . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d M s Zi k a l a l a s a y s : “ We c a n n o t d o a n a d v e r ti s i n g e ff e c ti v e n e s s m e a s u r e . We do not have any research and I doubt anyone 20 has. W e c a n n o t m e a s u r e w h e t h e r a 4 9 M Ad in t h e newspaper resulted d ir e c tl y in people u s in g e l e c tr ic i ty.” M R P R E TO R I U S : L e s s e l e c tr i c i ty. A D V M B I K IWA : L e s s e l e c tr ic i t y s o r r y. “ T h e r e is n o w a y a n y o n e c a n a n s w e r t h i s q u e s t io n a s Page 112 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 o u r a d v e r ti s i n g is n o t d ir e c t r e s p o n s e t h e r e f o r e r e s u l t s a r e s e e n h o li s tic a l ly n o t b y m e d i u m :” How – what you understand that response to mean? M R P R E TO R I U S : S o w h a t w e n e e d to ta k e i n to c o n s i d e r a t i o n a t t h is p o i n t i n ti m e t h a t t h e r e is q u i t e a n u m b e r o f p e o p le i n t h e m a r k e t t a lk in g a b o u t e n e r g y e ffi c i e n c y. S o i t is E s k o m is t a lk i n g a b o u t e n e r g y e ffic i e n c y. T h e g o v e r n m e n t i s t a l k i n g a b o u t th e e n e r g y e ff ic ie n c y a n d t h e n y o u h a v e a ll t h e c o n tr a c to r s th a t s u p p ly g e n e r a to r s a n d a ll t h e s e t h i n g s a n d e v e r y b o d y u s e s l o a d s h e d d in g o r b o u g h i n t e r r u p t io n s a s a 10 r e a s o n f o r s a le s . S o t h e r e i s q u i te a lo t o f p e o p l e i n t h e m a r k e t ta lk in g e s s e n ti a l ly a b o u t t h e s a m e t h i n g . S o i f I c h a n g e d m y b e h a v io u r b y s w it c h i n g o ff t h e l i g h t w h e n I l e a v e th e r o o m c a n – t h e q u e s t i o n i s t h e n c a n I a t tr i b u te t h a t d ir e c t ly to a n a d v e r t I s a w in t h e N e w A g e ? A n d th e a n s w e r t o t h a t q u e s ti o n , n o . – is n o . I t is v ir t u a lly i m p o s s i b l e t o d o t h a t u n l e s s y o u s p e a k w i t h e v e r y s i n g l e p e r s o n w h ic h w o u l d b e t h e c o s t w o u ld ju s t b e p r o h i b it iv e fo r u s in d o i n g t h a t . S o w h a t L a iz a is – M s Zi k a l a l a is s p e c i fi c a ll y s a y in g h e r e is t h a t i t is i m p o s s i b l e f o r h e r – f o r t h e m t o d o r e s e a r c h o n t h is . A D V M B I K IWA : 20 Thank you. C a n w e t h e n g o to p a g e 6 7 1 ? Th is i s I u n d e r s t a n d it is – is a d r a f t r e s p o n s e to t h e p a r li a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K I WA : A n d a s I s e e i t P o in ts 3 a n d 4 e ff e c t iv e l y r e fl e c t w h a t t h e a d v i c e t h a t M s Zik a la l a g a v e y o u ? M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V M B IK I WA : B u t c a n y o u t h e n tu r n to p a g e 6 7 5 ? T h i s is t h e f in a l Page 113 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r e s p o n s e s u b m i t te d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r i s e s b y E s k o m . A n d if w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 3 o n p a g e 6 7 6 – it i s fo ll o w i n g p a g e – i t says: “ W h e n t h e N e w A g e w a s i n it i a l ly l a u n c h e d w e c o u l d n o t d o a n a n a ly s is o n t h e p a p e r a s i t w a s n o t measured by the ABC or by Amps. S in c e t h e n th e n e w s p a p e r h a s b e e n m e a s u r e d b y A m p s .” N o w t h a t c o r r e s p o n d s w i t h M s Z ik a l a la ’s a d v i c e . B u t i t th e n s a y s : “The findings c o n f ir m that the paper reached E s k o m ’s in t e n d e d t a r g e t m a r k e t . ” 10 W h e r e d i d t h a t c o m e fr o m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : M y a p o l o g ie s . I h a v e n o id e a . So the process for p a r l ia m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s w a s a t t h e ti m e t h a t p a r l i a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n i s r e c e i v e d , a r e s p o n s e is p r e p a r e d a n d t h e r e s p o n s e i s d is c u s s e d b y E X C O a n d t h e y m a k e t h e f i n a l d e c is i o n o n w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e . O r w h a t g e ts w r it t e n d o w n . A D V M B I K IWA : But do you have a view on the accuracy of that s t a te m e n t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : 20 O n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y – t h e y – th e 3 9 0 0 0 i s o u r in t e n d e d t a r g e t m a r k e t , n o . I – i t i s – I h a v e a v i e w o n t h a t th a t n o i t is not. A D V M B I K IWA : Thank you. M r P r e t o r i u s c a n w e th e n tu r n t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s i n v e s t ig a ti o n . q u e s t io n s that the P u b li c B e f o r e w e - w e g e t i n t o th e - t h e Pr o t e c t o r asked a n o th e r aspect of M r G i g a b a ’s a ffi d a v it w h ic h h e s u b mi t t e d in r e s p o n s e t o M r Pr e to r i u s ’ Page 114 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e w a s th a t h e w a s e n g a g e d b y t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r a n d t h a t h e s o u g h t in f o r m a t io n fr o m t h e S O E s i n o r d e r t o r e s p o n d t o t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r. T h a t a p p e a r s fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f M r G i g a b a ’s a ffi d a v i t . D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h a t? M R P R E TO R I U S : A s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t v e r s io n o f t h a t C h a ir is th a t th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w r o t e to t h e M i n is te r. T h e M i n is t e r w r o t e t o - t o E s k o m a n d to Tr a n s n e t a n d s a y i n g y o u n e e d t o - t o r e p l y t o t h is b u t y o u r e p ly d ir e c t ly t o th e P u b lic P r o te c to r n o t t o v ia m y o ffic e . I n h i s s t a t e m e n t h e s a y s th a t h e d i d n o t w a n t t o h a v e a n y u n d u e i n fl u e n c e b y h is 10 d e p a r t m e n t. I f I r e a d i t c o r r e c tly. S o t h e - t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r ’s q u e s ti o n s b e a r i n g i n m in d t h a t I w a s a g a in s t t h is . I d i d n o t w a n t to d o t h i s . S o I g a v e a r e s p o n s e to t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r o f w h a t I c o u ld w it h a c l e a r m i n d g iv e h o n e s tly t o - to th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a n d I s e n t t h i s t o W il li e D u P l e s s is w h o w a s t h e H e a d o f L e g a l a t E s k o m a t th e ti m e r e p o r t i n g t o M o h a m e d A d a m w h o w a s t h e S e n i o r G e n e r a l M a n a g e r f o r L e g a l a n d C o m p l ia n c e w i t h i n E s k o m a n d a f e w d a y s l a te r I r e c e i v e d a n e m a i l fr o m - n o . S o r r y. I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m W i lli e s a y i n g t h a t w e n e e d t o e x p a n d o n t h is . 20 T h is is n o t m e r e ly s u ff ic i e n t. Ta k i n g i n t o c o n s i d e r a t i o n t h a t th e le t t e r th a t th e m i n i s t e r w r o t e t o t h e C h a ir m a n s a i d t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e a s a S t a t e O w n e d E n t it y a l l th e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d a l l o f th a t in p l a c e w h ic h w e m o s t p r o b a b l y h a v e a n d w e h a v e s e e n i t in - i n evidence here. S o I s e n t to W ill i e I c a n n o t i n a ll g o o d c o n s c i e n c e a s a m a r k e t in g p e r s o n w r i t e s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n o t t r u e a n d h e s a i d o k a y. I Page 115 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 w i ll s p e a k t o M o h a m e d . T h e e n d o f th a t w a s th a t M o h a m e d … A D V M B I K IWA : S o r r y. W h e n y o u r e fe r t o M o h a m e d … M R P R E TO R I U S : S o r r y. A D V M B I K IWA : Is t h a t M r A d a m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Mr Adam. S o r r y. M y a p o l o g ie s . Mr A d a m t h e n p h o n e d m e d ir e c tl y a n d s a id to m e th a t w e n e e d t o c o n c lu d e t h i s b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a d e a d l i n e o n t h i s a n d i t m u s t b e w r it t e n a s i f Es k o m b e n e fi t te d fr o m t h i s a n d i t w a s a g o o d th in g t o d o . Hence the c o m m e n t s i n th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s r e s p o n s e fr o m E s k o m is n o t m e r e ly 10 t h e r e a l it y. A D V M B I K IWA : O k a y. L e t u s - l e t u s ju s t u n p a c k t h a t p ie c e b y p ie c e . T h e - th e P u b lic P r o te c t o r l e t t e r c a n w e - c a n w e g o to t h a t? T h a t is a t page 727 in Annexure 1B - MM1 B. M R P R E TO R I U S : 7 0 0 a n d ? A D V M B I K IWA : 2 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M M 1 B ? A D V M B I K IWA : M M 1 B . CHAIRPERSON : 7-1-7? A D V M B I K IWA : 7 - 2 - 7 . 20 CHAIRPERSON : 7-2-7. A D V M B I K IWA : T h i s is t h e l e t t e r fr o m t h e - th e P u b li c Pr o te c to r w h e r e s h e in f o r m s t h e D G o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s t h a t s h e is i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h is m a t t e r a n d o v e r t h e p a g e a t 7 - 2 - 8 p a r a g r a p h 3 s h e s e ts o u t t h e a l le g a ti o n s a g a i n s t t h e a f o r e m e n ti o n e d p u b l ic e n te r p r is e s t h a t is Tr a n s n e t, Te lk o m , E s k o m a n d t h e S A B C a n d s e t s t h e m o u t f r o m Page 116 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 paragraphs 3.1 to 3.5. T h e e x e r ti o n o f u n d u e in f lu e n c e i m p r o p e r l y s p o n s o r i n g p u b li c e n t e r p r i s e s f o r t h e h o s ti n g o f b u s in e s s b r e a k fa s t s . A total amount of R 3 6 . 7 m i ll io n p a i d f o r th o s e b r e a k f a s ts b y t h a t s ta g e . That the s p o n s o r s h i p w a s o s t e n s i b ly t o a d v a n c e v a r io u s d u b i o u s p u b li c i n t e r e s ts v ia the business b r e a k f a s t b r ie f in g s e s s io n s and that the said s p o n s o r s h i p w a s a p p r o v e d d e s p i t e t h e a l l e g e d fa c t t h a t T N A is n o t a m e m b e r o f t h e A B C a n d th a t i ts tr u e c ir c u l a ti o n f ig u r e s c a n n o t b e v e r i fi e d w h ic h c o n s e q u e n tl y m a k e s n o b u s in e s s s e n s e f o r p u b l ic 10 e n t e r p r i s e s t o s p e n d p u b lic f u n d s f o r e x p o s u r e . T h e - th e P u b lic P r o te c t o r t h e n m a k e s a r e q u e s t o f - o f D P E in p a r a g r a p h 4 a n d i t a s k s f o r a r a n g e o f - o f d o c u m e n ts , p o l ic y d o c u m e n ts , s p o n s o r s h i p s , a g r e e m e n t s a n d th e l ik e . I f w e c a n t h e n tu r n to page 7-3-1. h is a ffi d a v i t . Th is a s I u n d e r s t a n d it is w h a t M r G i g a b a r e fe r s t o i n Is t h a t h e th e n s e n d s a l e t t e r t o t h e B o a r d o f - o f - t h e C h a ir o f t h e E s k o m B o a r d Mr Z o l a Ts o t s i . CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry Mr - Mr Mbikiwa. c o p y o f M r G i g a b a ’s a ffi d a v i t ? What happened to my It is n o t h e r e . I t w a s h e r e . H a v e y o u g o t a s p a r e c o p y b y a n y c h a n c e Mr M b ik iw a ? 20 A D V M B I K IWA : C h a ir, I … C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u d o n o t h a v e i t is fi n e . W e c a n - w e c a n d o - w e c a n m a k e d o i n th e m e a n t i m e . L e t u s c o n ti n u e . A D V M B I K IWA : I c a n g iv e y o u my c o p y. I f - i f y o u g o t o p a g e 7 - 3 - 1 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. Page 117 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V M B I K IWA : T h a t is t h e le t t e r fr o m M r G ig a b a t o Mr Ts o ts i . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d e s s e n ti a lly t h a t le t t e r s i m p l y s a y s : “ Pl e a s e p r o v id e all d o c u m e n ts necessary and p l e a s e c o p y m e o n a n y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t g o e s to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : Now - now Mr Pretorius your - your evidence is that y o u a r e th e n r e q u e s t e d t o h e lp p r e p a r e th e r e s p o n s e t o th e P u b l ic 10 Protector? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : W h o a s k s y o u t o d o t h a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : M r A d a m . A D V M B I K IWA : M r A d a m a n d w h a t is Mr A d a m ’s p o s i ti o n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : H e w a s t h e n t h e S e n i o r G e n e r a l M a n a g e r fo r L e g a l a n d C o m p l ia n c e . A D V M B I K IWA : A n d y o u p r e p a r e d a r e s p o n s e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I d id . Ye s , w h i c h h e f o u n d in a d e q u a t e . A D V M B I K IWA : W h i c h h e f o u n d i n a d e q u a t e . 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : J a . A D V M B I K IWA : W e - w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o o b ta in a c o p y o f t h a t r e s p o n s e . W h a t - w h a t w a s - w h a t d id h e f in d a d e q u a te a b o u t i t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : on my c o m p u t e r. I t w a s i n s u ffi c i e n t in f o r m a t io n a n d I - I h a v e a c o p y So I am s o r r y. There must have been m is c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t . I - I d o h a v e my r e s p o n s e t h a t I w r o t e , b u t h e Page 118 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s a i d t h a t th e r e i s in s u ff ic ie n t i n fo r m a ti o n . I t i s n o t w h a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r w a n ts t o k n o w a n d b a s ic a l ly t h a t w e h a d t o w r i te t h is in o r d e r t o e n s u r e t h a t E s k o m h a d m a d e th e r ig h t d e c i s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : In o r d e r t o e n s u r e … A D V M B I K IWA : W e d e f in i te ly w o u ld … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V M B I K IWA : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : In o r d e r t o e n s u r e th a t E s k o m ? M R P R E TO R I U S : H a d m a d e t h e r i g h t d e c is i o n to g o w i th t h e b u s i n e s s 10 breakfasts. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s Mr A d a m s a y in g t h a t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : H e s a id t h a t t o m e t e le p h o n ic a l ly. Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : M r Pr e t o r i u s w e c e r t a in l y w il l b e in t o u c h w i t h y o u a ft e r w a r d s t o g e t t h a t r e s p o n s e fr o m y o u . S o - s o Mr A d a m i n s tr u c ts y o u th a t t h e - th e r e s p o n s e y o u h a v e p r e p a r e d is i n a d e q u a te . Yo u th e n t o g e th e r w i t h Mr D u Pl e s s i s p r e p a r e a r e s p o n s e ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . S o Mr D u P l e s s is p h o n e d m e o n e a f t e r n o o n a n d w e s p e n t t h e a f te r n o o n a n d t h e b e s t p a r t o f t h e e v e n in g p r e p a r i n g th e 20 d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d I w a s w r it i n g t h e r e s p o n s e t o th e P u b li c P r o te c t o r in s u c h a w a y t h a t i t - ja . L o o k s a li t t le b i t b e t t e r t h a n m y o r ig in a l response. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f Mr A d a m ’s s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u r - th e r e s p o n s e y o u h a d p r e p a r e d w a s i n a d e q u a te ? M R P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir, I - a t t h a t p o i n t I - w h e n I s a w th e le t t e r th a t Page 119 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 c a m e f r o m t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a n d t h e M in is te r ’s l e tt e r I s p o k e t o m y la w y e r a n d a s k e d h e r w h a t w o u l d b e t h e i m p lic a ti o n s i f I w a s t o - t o l ie a n d s h e s a i d t o m e y o u w o u ld b e i n s e r io u s tr o u b l e b e c a u s e if t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r d e c i d e s t o - t o h a v e p r o p e r h e a r i n g s a r o u n d t h i s a n d y o u h a v e li e d y o u w i ll b e i n s e r i o u s tr o u b l e a n d t h a t is w h y I d id n o t w a n t to b e p a r t o f t h is . I d i d n o t w a n t to w r i t e t h e r e s p o n s e . I g a v e th e m th e in f o r m a ti o n w h ic h I w il l p r o v id e t o t h e - t o t h e A d v o c a te s a f t e r t h is m e e ti n g , b u t I d i d n o t w a n t to b e in v o l v e d i n w r it i n g t h a t r e s p o n s e 10 b e c a u s e w r i ti n g th a t r e s p o n s e is - i s - i t i s u n e th ic a l i n m y o p i n i o n a n d t h a t - i t - it r e a l ly b o t h e r e d m e t h a t I h a d t o d o th a t . CHAIRPERSON : W o u ld i t - is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t a l t h o u g h h e w a s s a y in g y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s in a d e q u a t e h e a c t u a l ly m e a n t th a t i t d id n o t c o n v e y w h a t h e w a n te d t o b e c o n v e y e d o n b e h a lf o f E s k o m ? He regarded it as not the right response. M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : And he - your understanding that - was that he wanted the right response to be provided? 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. I o n ly p r o v id e d t h e - t h e f a c ts … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : In - in a o n e p a g e d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S o th e fa c ts o f t h e - o f t h e v a r i o u s c o n tr a c ts … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 120 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e b e n e fi ts th a t w e d e r i v e d o r th a t w e a ll e g e d l y d e r iv e d fr o m - fr o m t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s a n d t h a t w a s i t a n d M r A d a m w a s not happy with … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : W it h t h e f a c ts . H e w a n t e d a s t o r y li n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : A n d I s a i d I c a n n o t w r i te th e s t o r y li n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e th a t g o e s a g a i n s t e v e r y p r i n c i p le t h a t I h a v e 10 and … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : I am a member of a number of professional o r g a n i s a t io n s … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : W h ic h propagates e t h ic a l behaviour in c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d m a r k e ti n g in S o u t h A f r i c a . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R P R E TO R I U S : S o I c a n n o t d o t h is … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M R P R E T O R I U S : A n d i n th e e n d I w a s fo r c e d t o d o it w h ic h m a d e m e v e r y u n h a p p y. H e n c e w h e n t h e t h i r d c o n t r a c t c a m e I d is t a n c e d m y s e l f fr o m t h is b e c a u s e I k n e w t h is t h i n g w a s c o m i n g b a c k t o b it e u s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm. W e l l I t h i n k - I t h i n k y o u u n d e r s to o d fr o m m y q u e s ti o n s th a t w h e n I r e f e r r e d t o th e r ig h t r e s p o n s e a n d th e w r o n g r e s p o n s e . I w a s u s in g th o s e w o r d s i n i n v e r t e d c o m m a s . Page 121 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Pr e t o r i u s c a n w e t h e n t u r n to t h e fi n a l r e s p o n s e th a t is s u b m i t te d t o t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r. Th a t is a t p a g e 749. N o w y o u w i ll s e e th a t t h e r e is a - i n b o l d - t h e r e i s a - i t s a y s “ D r a ft ” b u t t h a t is i n f a c t t h e f i n a l v e r s i o n b e c a u s e i f y o u t u r n o v e r to 7 5 1 i t is s i g n e d n o t o n ly b y M r D u P le s s i s b u t i n a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f r e c e i p t b u t th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ’s O ff ic e . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m l o o k i n g f o r “ D r a ft ” . A D V M B I K IWA : S o r r y C h a ir. I t is o n 7 4 9 . CHAIRPERSON : 749? A D V M B I K IWA : 7 4 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I w a s lo o k i n g a t a w r o n g t h i n g . I w a s l o o k i n g a t 6 4 9 . Ye s . I ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V M B I K IWA : S o y o u w i ll - y o u w il l s e e C h a ir t h a t i t s a y s - i t s a y s “ D r a ft ” o n i t b u t i n f a c t i t is t h e fi n a l v e r s i o n b e c a u s e i f y o u t u r n t o 7 5 1 it is - i t i s s i g n e d b o t h b y Mr D u P l e s s is a n d i n a c k n o w le d g e m e n t o f r e c e i p t o n t h e o th e r s i d e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V M B I K IWA : M r P r e t o r i u s i f w e c a n t h e n tu r n to 7 5 1 . T h a t i s t h e t h e a s p e c t o f th e r e s p o n s e I w o u l d l ik e to … M R P R E TO R I U S : To ? A D V M B I K IWA : 7 5 1 . CHAIRPERSON : S o d id y o u s a y M r P r e t o r i u s th e p e r s o n w i t h w h o m Page 122 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 y o u e n d e d u p w o r k in g o n t h e “ r i g h t r e s p o n s e ” w a s Mr D u P l e s s is ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . M r D u P l e s s is a n d I … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : S p e n t t h e e v e n i n g t o d r a f t t h is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P R E TO R I U S : D o c u m e n t , j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d c a n w e p ic k i t u p fr o m u n d e r t h e ta b le . N o t t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h b u t th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h w h e r e y o u s a y : 10 “ T h e p r i m a r y b e n e f i ts w e r e b r a n d a w a r e n e s s fo r 4 9 M a n d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o h i g h li g h t t h e n e e d to save e le c t r ic i ty. s ig n if ic a n t Th e exposure sponsorships th r o u g h th e p r o v id e d p r in t and broadcast media and to engage more businesses in t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r. ” Is - i s t h a t a n a c c u r a te s t a te m e n t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o . I t is n o t . A D V M B I K IWA : I f w e m o v e o n t o t h e - t o t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h . “ R e c e n t r e s e a r c h u n d e r ta k e n w i th r e g a r d t o 4 9 M 20 in d i c a t e d that o p p o r tu n i t ie s such as the s p o n s o r s h i p o f t h e b u s in e s s b r i e fi n g s c o n t r ib u t e d t o a 7 3 p e r c e n t a w a r e n e s s b y t h e p u b lic o f t h e 4 9 M C a m p a ig n .” Is t h a t a tr u e s t a t e m e n t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : No. It is n o t . A 7 3 p e r c e n t a w a r e n e s s is t r u e b u t Page 123 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h a t i s a c r o s s a l l m e d ia in S o u t h A f r ic a . I t w a s a n a t i o n a l s t u d y. A D V M B I K IWA : A n d - a n d is t h a t 7 3 p e r c e n t i n a n y w a y a t t r i b u t a b l e t o t h e 4 9 M C a m p a ig n ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I t is - s o r r y. I t is a w a r e n e s s o f t h e 4 9 M C a m p a i g n … A D V M B I K IWA : S o r r y. M R P R E TO R I U S : B u t is n o t a t tr i b u te d to T h e N e w A g e . A D V M B I K IWA : Is - w h a t I m e a n t t o a s k w a s i s th a t 7 3 p e r c e n t i n a n y w a y a t tr i b u ta b l e t o t h e b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s ts ? M R P R E TO R I U S : N o t i n m y o p in io n . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u M r Pr e t o r i u s . C h a ir th e - th e l a s t f e w q u e s t io n s I w o u ld l ik e to a s k M r P r e t o r i u s p e r t a in t o a n a n n e x u r e - a - a d o c u m e n t i n t h e P r o p o s e d B u n d l e o f M r Zo la Ts o ts i w h o w ill b e a p p e a r i n g l a te r i n th e w e e k . C o u l d w e b e p e r m it t e d to - t o r e f e r t o t h a t - to that document? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : To g o t h e r e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e , ja . A D V M B I K IWA : M r P r e to r i u s i t i s t h e d o c u m e n t th a t is la b e l le d c u r r e n tly M M 6 . 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : H a v e y o u g o t i t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : I t is t h e r e . A D V M B I K IWA : J a . C o u l d y o u t a k e i t o u t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : C a n I t a k e i t o u t ? A D V M B I K IWA : A n d i f y o u g o r i g h t t o t h e b a c k o f t h a t fi l e a t p a g e 3 6 4 . Page 124 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t fi l e a lr e a d y h e r e ? I s it a l r e a d y h e r e ? R E G I S T R A R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V M B I K IWA : Ye s C h a ir. I t is h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l m a y b e i f i t is a lr e a d y h e r e w e m a y a s w e l l t h e n ; I a m j u s t w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d n o t - l e t u s j u s t - w h a t p a g e is i t o n ? A D V M B I K IWA : I t is p a g e 3 6 4 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 6 4 . M a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d h a v e d o n e i s to - 3 - 6 - 4 10 t o in c l u d e i n h i s b u n d le th is d o c u m e n t . S o t h a t w e - i t c o u l d ju s t b e p a r t o f h is b u n d l e . A D V M B I K IWA : W e - w e c a n d o t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y - m a y - m a y b e a c t u a l ly y o u c a n a s k o n i t b u t w e m a y b e m u s t p la c e o n r e c o r d t h a t w e a r e m a k i n g - w e a r e a d d in g i t t o is i t M M 1 B ? A D V M B I K IWA : M M 1 B C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . L e t - l e t u s p u t i t - w h a t w il l b e - w h a t is th e l a s t page on MM1B? A D V M B I K IWA : C h a ir a s I h a v e i t t h e l a s t p a g e is 8 … 20 CHAIRPERSON : S o I w il l - I w i ll n o t m a r k t h is o n e b e c a u s e it is i n M r Ts o ts i ’s b u n d l e , b u t s o m e b o d y c a n m a k e a n o t e a n d a c o p y c a n b e made and put into that one. A D V M B I K IWA : I n d e e d C h a ir. W e w i ll d o t h a t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V M B I K IWA : C h a ir th e - th e l a s t p a g e o f M M 1 B c u r r e n tl y is 8 3 5 . Page 125 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o s o … A D V M B I K IWA : S o t h a t w i ll b e g i n a t 8 3 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t 8 3 6 , j a . O k a y, b u t y o u c a n j u s t r e f e r t o i t n o w a s the P u b l ic Pr o te c to r ’s l e tt e r addressed to Mr Ts o ts i dated 2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . A D V M B I K IWA : 2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M B I K IWA : I n d e e d C h a ir. Mr P r e t o r i u s a r e y o u f a m ili a r w i t h th is le t t e r ? 10 M R P R E TO R I U S : I t is t h e fi r s t t i m e th a t I s e e t h is l e t te r. A D V M B I K IWA : F ir s t ti m e y o u h a v e s e e n i t ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : Th is - t h i s is a l e tt e r t h a t is s e n t b y th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a s a f o l l o w u p to t h e p r i o r l e t t e r t h a t w a s - t h a t - th a t s h e s e n t a n d t o w h ic h s h e r e c e i v e d a r e s p o n s e . M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : E s s e n ti a l ly t h e - t h e l e tt e r s a y s th a t i t h a s c o m e t o t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r ’s a t t e n t io n th a t n o tw i th s t a n d in g h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h e t h ir d c o n tr a c t w a s th e n e n te r e d i n t o t h e v a l u e o f R 4 3 m ill i o n . 20 M R P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : B u t y o u - y o u k n e w n o t h i n g a b o u t t h is a t - a t t h e ti m e in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 ? M R P R E TO R I U S : Th is - th is p a r t ic u l a r l e tt e r w a s n o t s h a r e d w i th m e a t a l l. N o . A D V M B I K IWA : C h a ir th o s e c o n c l u d e m y q u e s t io n s f o r M r P r e t o r i u s . Page 126 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u d i d n o t in d ic a t e o r d id y o u t h e m a t e r i a l p a r t of the letter that you wanted … A D V M B I K IWA : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To h i g h l i g h t. A D V M B I K IWA : C h a i r th e - t h e q u e s t io n t o Mr P r e t o r iu s w a s w h e t h e r h e h a d e v e r s e e n it … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u … A D V M B I K IWA : B u t - b u t th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V M B I K IWA : T h e m a t e r i a l p a r t s r e a l ly a r e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 w h e r e w h e r e th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : T h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r in d i c a t e s t h a t s h e - i t h a s c o m e t o h e r a t te n ti o n t h r o u g h t h e m e d i a t h a t n o t w i t h s t a n d in g th e f a c t th a t s h e h a d b e g u n a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n t o t h e c o n c l u s io n o f th e fir s t t w o c o n tr a c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M B I K IWA : E s k o m h a d t h e n e n te r e d i n to t h e t h i r d c o n tr a c t a n d s h e g o e s o n to s a y th a t - t h a t i t is a ll e g e d t h a t th is h a s h a p p e n e d c o n tr a r y 20 t o l e g a l a d v i c e a n d t h e li k e . CHAIRPERSON : Maybe - maybe you should just read paragraph 2. J u s t t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t i n to t h e r e c o r d o r th e w i tn e s s c o u ld d o t h a t . A D V M B I K IWA : C e r ta in ly C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V M B I K IWA : P a r a g r a p h … Page 127 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t h is a n s w e r c a n b e u n d e r s to o d i n t h e c o n t e x t . A D V M B I K IWA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V M B I K IWA : P a r a g r a p h 2 r e a d s : “ I t h a s s i n c e c o m e t o m y a t t e n t i o n t h r o u g h th e media th a t n o t w i t h s t a n d in g my ongoing in v e s t i g a t io n o f th e a b o v e m a t te r E s k o m ’s fo r m e r in t e r i m C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ffi c e r M r C o l in M a tji l a h a s s u b s e q u e n t ly 10 e n te r e d into a new and s i m il a r b r e a k f a s t s p o n s o r s h i p d e a l w o r t h R 4 3 m i lli o n w i th T h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r.” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M B I K IWA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Pr e t o r i u s f o r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . S h o u l d a n e e d a r is e w e w il l a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k , b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Fo r n o w y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M R P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r. A D V H O F M E Y R : W e n e x t h a v e M r C h o e u w h o w i ll b e g i v i n g e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: I w o n d e r i f i t is c o n v e n i e n t t o t a k e a fiv e m in u te adjournment so we can move and get … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 128 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V H O F M E Y R : Mr C h o e u r e a d y. W o u l d t h a t b e s u it a b l e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e f in e . I s f i v e m in u t e s e n o u g h o r s h o u l d we make it …? A D V H O F M E Y R : P o s s i b ly 1 0 w o u l d b e b e t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 0 w o u ld b e - j a . A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. L e t u s - le t u s t a k e a 1 0 - 1 0 m i n u t e b r e a k . W e w i ll r e s u m e a t 1 0 p a s t th r e e . W e a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S 10 I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r. ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Are you ready? ADV HOFMEYR: W e a r e i n d e e d , a n d w e n e x t h a v e th e e v i d e n c e o f M r C h o e u , i f I c o u l d a s k th a t h e b e s w o r n i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s te r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r f u ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . MR CHOEU: REGISTRAR: 20 C h o s e A n d r e w K e n il w o r t h C h o e u . D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t i o n s t o ta k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? MR CHOEU: REGISTRAR: No. D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r conscience? MR CHOEU: Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e Page 129 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 tr u th , th e w h o le tr u th a n d n o t h in g b u t th e t r u th ? MR CHOEU: REGISTRAR: T h a t is s o . I f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e lp m e God. M R C H O S E A N D R E W K E N I LW O R T H C H O E U : ( d u ly s w o r n , s t a te s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r C h o e u y o u w i ll s e e i n f r o n t o f y o u , t h i n k t h e f il e o p e n i n fr o n t o f y o u is th e f il e c o n t a i n i n g y o u r a ffi d a v i t i s t h a t c o r r e c t? 10 MR CHOEU: Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: C h a ir f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f th e r e c o r d w e p r o p o s e t h a t M r C h o e u ’s a ff id a v i t a n d a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n ts b e e n t e r e d a s E x h i b it MN2. CHAIRPERSON : A n d th e le v e r a r c h f i le c o n ta i n i n g t h e s t a te m e n t a ffi d a v i t b y M r C h o e u w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t M M 2 , i t c o n t a i n s h i s s t a te m e n t a n d A n n e x u r e s . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr C h o e u i f w e c a n t h e n c o m m e n c e a t p a g e o n e in t h a t B u n d l e M N 2 , w h a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. MR CHOEU: 20 The numbers are the ones on top? ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Indeed. O k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: So throughout the day when I make reference to p a g e n u m b e r s y o u ’ ll lo o k f o r th e r e d n u m b e r a t t h e t o p . MR CHOEU: O k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: A n d M r C h o e u t h e r e w i ll b e o c c a s io n s i n t h e Page 130 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 e v i d e n c e w h e r e w e m a y n e e d to r e fe r y o u to a n o t h e r b u n d l e , b u t t h o s e h a v e b e e n p la c e d n e x t to y o u t h e r e a n d I ’ ll g u i d e y o u t o w h ic h fi le w e may want to take you to. MR CHOEU: Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: B u t w e ’l l c o n c e n tr a te p r e d o m i n a n tl y i n y o u r Ex h i b it M N 2 w h ic h c o n t a i n s a d o c u m e n t a t p a g e o n e , w h a t i s t h a t d o c u m e n t? MR CHOEU: It ’s m y a ffi d a v i t th is o n e y e s . ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you and if you go over to the end of the a ffi d a v i t w h ic h y o u ’l l f i n d a t p a g e 1 2 , c a n y o u t e ll u s w h e n t h a t a ffi d a v i t 10 w a s d e p o s e d to ? MR CHOEU: Page 12? ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Ye s . In J a n u a r y I t h i n – 2 8 /1 2 /2 0 1 8 . ADV HOFMEYR: Th a n k y o u , t h a t d a t e i s r e l e v a n t o n l y i n s o f a r if y o u g o b a c k t o p a g e o n e o f y o u r a ff id a v i t i s c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 2 o n p a g e o n e , y o u s t a t e t h e r e t h a t, i n th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e , “ I’ m e m p l o y e d b y Es k o m a s D iv is io n a l E x e c u t iv e C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s ” , M r C h o e u w a s t h a t t h e p o s i ti o n o n t h e 2 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r o f 20 2018? MR CHOEU: Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: I s i t c u r r e n t ly t h e p o s i t io n ? N o I’ m o n r e tir e m e n t. ADV HOFMEYR: A n d w h e n d id y o u ta k e r e tir e m e n t? Page 131 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 MR CHOEU: S t a r ti n g fr o m t h e 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 . ADV HOFMEYR: R i g h t l e t ’s t h e n s t a r t j u s t a t y o u r ti m e w h i le y o u w e r e a t E s k o m , f o r h o w lo n g w e r e y o u e m p l o y e d a t E s k o m a n d i n w h a t p o s i ti o n s ? MR CHOEU: F r o m t h e 1 s t o f J u n e 2 0 1 0 u n til , a s I s a i d t h e e n d o f l a s t y e a r D e c e m b e r, 3 1 s t . ADV HOFMEYR: A n d i n w h a t p o s it i o n s w e r e y o u e m p l o y e d in E s k o m during that period? MR CHOEU: 10 W h e n w e s ta r t e d m y c o n t r a c t w e w e r e s t il l t h e n c a l l e d M a n a g in g D ir e c t o r s b u t la t e r I ’ m n o t s u r e o f t h e d a t e w e w e r e r e f e r r e d t o a s D i v i s i o n a l E x e c u tiv e s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t D iv is io n w e r e y o u t h e E x e c u tiv e o f ? MR CHOEU: ADV C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s . HOFMEYR: And was that for the d u r a t io n fr o m June 2 0 1 0 … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . MR CHOEU: Fr o m t h e b e g i n n in g u p u n t il th e e n d t h a t w a s my r e s p o n s i b i li ty. ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u , a n d i n te r m s o f y o u r q u a l i fic a ti o n s , w h a t q u a li fi c a t io n s d o y o u h o l d ? 20 MR CHOEU: I h a v e a B A H o n o u r s M a s t e r s D e g r e e fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f D e n v e r i n t h e U S a n d a M a s t e r s D e g r e e fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f P o r t E li z a b e th a n d it s N e l s o n M a n d e la , I th i n k , n o w. ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u , M r C h o e u j u s t i n te r ms o f y o u r p r e v io u s e n g a g e m e n ts in s o m e o f t h e p r o c e s s e s th a t I a l e r t e d t h e C h a ir to t h i s m o r n in g th a t h a v e p r e c e d e d t h e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n to d a y, Page 132 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 m y f ir s t q u e s t io n i s , d id y o u m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s o r a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e o f P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e s ? MR CHOEU: No. ADV HOFMEYR: A n d d i d y o u e n g a g e w i t h S N G w h o w e r e E s k o m ’s a u d it o r s ? MR CHOEU: Ye s I d i d . ADV HOFMEYR: Yo u d i d , a n d th a t w a s w h e n t h e y w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e t h ir d c o n t r a c t is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR CHOEU: 10 Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u , w e ’l l c o m e t o t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e . I’ d li k e t o t h e n p ic k u p y o u r a ffi d a v i t i f I m a y, a t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 o n p a g e o n e b e c a u s e t h e r e i n a n in tr o d u c t o r y s e s s i o n y o u b e g in t o d e s c r i b e th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n E s k o m a n d T N A . C a n y o u e x p la i n to u s w h a t is s t a te d a t 2 . 1 a n d i n w h a t D iv is i o n o f E s k o m t h a t r e l a t i o n s h ip w a s managed? MR CHOEU: C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s , it w a s i n m y D iv is i o n , C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s . ADV HOFMEYR: A n d c a n w e ta k e i t th a t y o u h o l d t h e p o s i t io n o f H e a d of that Division? 20 MR CHOEU: Ye s I d i d . ADV HOFMEYR: A n d a t th e r e l e v a n t ti m e s w h e n th e th r e e c o n tr a c t s with TNA were concluded? MR CHOEU: W h e n t h e th ir d c o n tr a c t I r e p o r t e d t o – w h e r e a m I … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . ADV HOFMEYR: Er ic a J o h n s o n ? Page 133 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 MR CHOEU: Er ic a J o h n s o n . ADV HOFMEYR: S o w h a t w a s y o u r p o s i t io n w h e n y o u w e r e r e p o r ti n g t o h e r w e r e y o u s ti ll th e H e a d o f t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR CHOEU: Ye s w h a t t h e y d i d i s th e y t o o k – I m a y f o r g e t t h e o th e r s but Mohammed Adam that we spoke about reported to her and then Fr e d d y N d o u s tr a t e g y r e p o r t e d t o h e r a n d t h e g u y th e n w h o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r I T s h o u l d b e S a n d o [ i n d is ti n c t ] S o i t w a s a n u m b e r o f u s r e p o r t in g t o h e r s o w h a t t h e y s i m p ly d i d t h e y to o k E x c o a n d t h e C E O f e l t E x c o w a s ju s t t o o b i g a n d t h e n w e r e d u c e d i t b y t a k in g o th e r E x c o 10 m e m b e r s t o r e p o r t to o t h e r E x c o m e m b e r s . ADV HOFMEYR: A n d p r io r t o th a t c h a n g e i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a l s tr u c t u r e , t o w h o m w a s y o u r r e p o r ti n g l in e ? MR CHOEU: D ir e c tl y t o th e C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ffi c e r. ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: I was a member of Exco. ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: And in 20…[intervenes]. A n d i n 2 0 11 a n d 2 0 1 2 w h o w a s th a t C h ie f E x e c u t iv e ? Br ia n A d a m . ADV HOFMEYR: B r i a n D a m e s , I t h i n k y o u m a y w a n t t o c o r r e c t , is t h a t correct? 20 MR CHOEU: Br ia n D a m e s . ADV HOFMEYR: M r A d a m is M o h a m m e d A d a m w h o h e a d e d u p t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR CHOEU: Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you, now at the end of paragraph 2.1 you talk a b o u t t h e a r e a s o v e r w h ic h – w h a t y o u r e fe r t o a s C A D t h a t ’s t h e Page 134 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C o r p o r a te A ff a ir s D iv i s i o n h a d r e s p o n s i b i l ity, c a n y o u ta k e u s t h r o u g h those? MR CHOEU: C a n I t a k e t h e m f r o m 2 . 3 b e c a u s e t h a t’s w h e r e I … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Indeed. Fi r s t o f a ll w e h a d S t r a t e g i c M a r k e t in g w h ic h w a s u n d e r K h e e p e M o r e m i a n d P e te r Pr e to r i u s r e p o r t e d t o K h e e p e M o r e m i a n d t h e n w e h a d C o r p o r a t e C o m m u n i c a t io n w h ic h w a s u n d e r R a ’e e s a h Wa j a . C o r p o r a t e C o m m u n ic a t i o n , e a r li e r o n w e d i d t a lk a b o u t S t r a t e g i c 10 M a r k e t in g w h a t i t d o e s b u t C o r p o r a te C o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h e s p o k e s p e r s o n a n d e v e r y t h i n g r e la t e d t o E s k o m ’s is s u e s i n t h e m e d i a , i n c l u d in g t h e s u b s c r i p ti o n o f n e w s p a p e r s a n d r e l a t e d i s s u e s a n d t h e n s t a k e c o a g u l a t i o n . S t a k e c o a g u l a ti o n i s i m p o r ta n t t h a t – a t E s k o m a n d M r Pr e t o r i u s d id a l l u d e t o i t , o n e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t w a s o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s t h a t e v e r y c o n t a c t fr o m o u ts id e E s k o m c a m e v ia o u r D i v is io n . W h a t i t m e a n s is if i n t e r n a t io n a l v i s i t o r s w a n t t o v i s i t Es k o m t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w h o w to t a l k to t h e y e i t h e r w r i t e t o th e C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r a n d th e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r w o u l d r e f e r t h a t l e t t e r t o u s t o p r e p a r e . J o u r n a l is ts , w h e n t h e y w a n t e d to a s k q u e s t io n s a n d t h e y h a v e 20 n o r e la t io n s h ip y e t , m a y b e w i th t h e s p o k e s p e r s o n t h e y w o u ld c o m e t o u s a n d w e w o u ld r e fe r t h e m t o t h e m e d i a d e s k . So each and every s t a k e h o ld e r a n d L u s a n d a G i a w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h a t D iv is io n . T h e n w e h a v e th e E s k o m D e v e l o p m e n t Fo u n d a ti o n th a t d e a ls w i th C o r p o r a te Social R e s p o n s i b i li ty, R e s p o n s ib il i ty. everything to do with Corporate Social T h e n o f c o u r s e m y o ffi c e o f th e D i v i s i o n a l Ex e c u t iv e Page 135 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a n d th o s e w e r e t h e d i v i s i o n s t h a t f e l l u n d e r m e . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u , i f y o u g o b a c k u p t o p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 y o u ’ ll see th a t y o u in the l is t provide there, you a ls o lis t E s k o m ’s s p o n s o r s h i p s a s fa ll in g w i t h i n th e C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s D i v is i o n . MR CHOEU: Where? ADV HOFMEYR: If y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 .1 o n p a g e o n e , th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e th e r e r e a d s , “CAD – Corporate A ff a ir s D iv is io n is responsible for C o r p o r a te C o m m u n ic a t i o n … [ i n te r v e n e s ]” . 10 MR CHOEU: Ye s r e s p o n s i b i li ty, h e r e I w a s ta lk in g t o t h e d iv is i o n s b u t s p o n s o r s h i p w o u l d fa ll u n d e r S tr a t e g ic M a r k e ti n g . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: It ’s a s u b - d iv is i o n y e s . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: R i g h t s o i t ’s a s u b - d iv i s i o n in a s e n s e ? A n d a l l o f th e c o n t r a c t s t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . And I don’t know what I did – you see for example, here I m e n ti o n H e r i ta g e U n i t , i t w a s d ir e c t ly u n d e r m y d iv is i o n o ffic e o f t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ffi c e r. ADV HOFMEYR: I u n d e r s t a n d , t h a t ’s h e l p fu l . S o i n s o f a r a s t h e t h r e e c o n tr a c ts w i t h T N A i n v o l v e d b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s ts , a m I t o u n d e r s ta n d 20 t h a t , t h a t f e l l u n d e r t h e E s k o m ’s s p o n s o r s h i p s a s p e c t w h ic h f e l l u n d e r t h e C o r p o r a t e A ff a ir s D iv is io n ? MR CHOEU: S t r a t e g i c M a r k e ti n g y e s , C o r p o r a te A ff a ir s D i v is i o n , S tr a t e g ic M a r k e t in g . ADV HOFMEYR: R i g h t a n d t h e y w e r e E s k o m s p o n s o r s h ip s w h ic h w o u ld t h e n g o p r in c i p a ll y t o M r Pr e to r i u s f e e d i n g u p to M r M o r e m i a n d Page 136 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h e n u p t o y o u i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR CHOEU: Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u , i f w e t h e n g o o v e r to p a g e t w o , M r C h o e u w e ’v e a lr e a d y h e a r d fr o m M r P r e t o r i u s t o d a y, i n h is e v i d e n c e , t h e b a c k g r o u n d to t h e E s k o m s p o n s o r s h ip p o l ic y, y o u a l s o d e ta il t h a t t o s o m e e x t e n t . I d o n ’ t w a n t to tr a v e r s e a l l i t s f e a t u r e s b u t I’ d lik e to p ic k u p o n o n e o r t w o w i t h y o u i f I m a y. Yo u , a t 3 . 2 a t p a g e t w o o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t , ta lk a b o u t t h e s p o n s o r s h ip p o li c y o b je c tiv e s , d o y o u s e e t h a t ? MR CHOEU: 10 Mmm. ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t t h o s e o b je c t iv e s a r e ? O n e a l i g n e d w it h E s k o m ’s S tr a t e g ic b u s i n e s s o b je c t iv e s , c o n tr i b u t e t o i n c r e a s e s i n Es k o m b r a n d e q u i ty a s a c o m p a n y a n d / o r t h a t it ’s o th e r b r a n d s s u c h a s 4 9 M … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . ADV HOFMEYR: C o u l d w e s t o p th e r e , w e d i d h a v e a m o m e n t o f e v i d e n c e fr o m M r P r e t o r i u s a b o u t 4 9 M b u t j u s t f o r t h e u n in i ti a te d c a n y o u e x p la i n t o u s w h a t 4 9 M w a s ? MR CHOEU: Yo u w o u l d r e c a ll t h a t o n e o f t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t w e f a c e d t h e r e a t E s k o m w a s lo a d s h e d d i n g , w e w e r e lo a d s h e d d i n g e s p e c i a l ly a ft e r 2 0 1 0 b e c a u s e in 2 0 1 0 o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d w a s , t h a t 20 b e c a u s e o f t h e w o r l d c u p , t h e ty p e o f , y o u k n o w, n o r m a l m a i n t e n a n c e t h a t w e ’ d d o , m o s t o f t h e t h in g s w e r e d e l a y e d a n d i t c a u g h t u p w i t h u s a n d a s i t c a u g h t u p w i th u s w e a ls o h a d a d e l a y n o w w i t h M e d u p i a n d K u s il e . S o th e r e w a s a l o t o f p r e s s u r e fr o m a l l o v e r a b o u t th e fa c t t h a t w e m u s t fi n d a w a y t o e i th e r s u p p ly m o r e e l e c tr i c i ty o r f in d a w a y t o c o n v i n c e S o u t h A f r ic a n s t o r e d u c e e l e c tr i c i ty. S o w e m u s t c o m e u p w i t h Page 137 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a c a m p a i g n , s o K h e e p e M o r e m i a n d P e t e r P r e t o r i u s , a n d I ’ m t o l d r e a l ly t h a t t h i s i d e a o f 4 9 M d i d n o t s ta r t i n 2 0 1 0 , th e id e a h a s a l w a y s b e e n there a f te r th e 2006/2007 r e s p o n s i b i li ty w h ic h I lo a d shedding. So it became my p a s s e d o v e r t o m y e x p e r ts t o s a y l e t ’s p u t t o g e th e r t h i s c a m p a ig n o f c o m m u n i c a t in g a n d th e q u e s t io n w a s , y o u m u s t c o m m u n ic a t e t o e a c h a n d e v e r y S o u t h A fr i c a n a n d t h a t is w h y, a t t h a t ti m e t h e p o p u l a ti o n o f S o u t h A f r ic a w a s 4 9 m i ll i o n a n d t h a t is w h y a ft e r d is c u s s i o n s – a n u m b e r o f n a m e s w e r e lo o k e d a t, th o s e t h a t d i d n o t l ik e 4 9 M s a i d m a y b e n e x t y e a r i t w i ll b e 5 1 a n d t h a t b u t u l ti m a t e ly 10 a ft e r a l l t h e s e d i s c u s s io n s p e o p l e s t a t e d , le t ’s s a y w i th 4 9 M a n d f in d a w a y i n w h ic h y o u ’r e g o i n g t o lo o k f o r p l a t f o r m s a n d th e s e p l a t fo r ms y o u m u s t u s e e ff e c t iv e ly t o c o m m u n i c a t e to a l l S o u t h A fr ic a n s . E a r l ie r o n P e t e r a ll u d e d to t h e L S M ’s th a t y o u m u s t f i n d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : MR CHOEU: Yo u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o M r P r e t o r i u s ? Ye s , Mr P r e t o r iu s r e fe r r e d t o L S M ’s a n d t h a t i s t h a t w h a t e v e r w e d o w e s h o u l d fi n d a w a y t o c o m m u n ic a te t o a ll S o u t h A fr ic a n s b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e i s s u e s 1 ) r e d u c e e l e c t r ic i ty, 2 ) e d u c a t e S o u th A f r i c a n s a n d i f – I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e 4 9 M s tr a t e g y h e r e b u t i f y o u n e e d i t I’ m s u r e E s k o m w i ll p r o v id e i t , I’ m n o l o n g e r a t E s k o m b u t 20 E s k o m w ill p r o v i d e a s t r a t e g y i t t o u c h e d e v e r y b o d y a n d a l l th e p l a t fo r m s t h a t w e w a n t e d to u s e . For example, at one point we were o n ly u s i n g S o u t h A fr ic a n b r o a d c a s ti n g c o r p o r a t io n t o d o t h e – y o u k n o w a t 7 o ’ c l o c k i n th e e v e n i n g y o u w o u ld g e t t h e – w h a t is th is c a ll e d , a w a r n in g t o S o u t h A f r ic a n s th a t p l e a s e u s e e l e c tr ic i t y s p a r in g ly a n d w e ’d h a v e s o m e g r a p h s a n d p ic tu r e s th a t w o u ld s h o w y o u w h a t is h a p p e n i n g Page 138 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 in S o u th A f r ic a a n d S o u th A fr ic a n s w o u l d r e s p o n d a n d w e w e r e r e q u e s t e d t h a t u s e a l l p l a tf o r m s a n d t h a t i s w h y w e e v e n m o v e d o v e r t o – a w a y, n o t a w a y i n a d d i ti o n w e u s e d o t h e r T V s ta t io n s , l ik e e - tv a n d w h a t a r e t h e o t h e r s , I t h in k a t t h a t ti m e i t w a s o n l y e - t v t h a t w e c o u l d u s e b u t I m e a n w e w e r e u s i n g a l l p l a t f o r ms , c i n e m a s , w e w e n t in t o c in e m a s s o w e w a n t e d to t a r g e t e a c h a n d e v e r y S o u t h A f r i c a n , th a t is w h a t 4 9 M w a s b o t h t o r e d u c e e l e c tr i c i ty b u t a ls o t o e d u c a te S o u t h A fr ic a n s a b o u t t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f e l e c tr ic it y b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t – P e t e r w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e t o p L S M , w h a t w e a r e e x p e r i e n c i n g 10 under…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON : MR CHOEU: Mr C h o e u … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. Pr e t o r i u s I m u s t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s b u t h e a l s o r e f e r r e d to s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e in t h e fir s t n a m e b u t l e t ’s tr y a n d k e e p i t t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR CHOEU: Mr P r e t o r iu s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : MR CHOEU: And everybody the surname. W e h a d to t o u c h e v e r y b o d y, E s k o m ’s p r o b l e m e v e n to d a y, e v e n a t t h a t ti m e , i n t h e t o w n s h i p s p e o p le w e r e n o t p a y i n g fo r e l e c tr ic i t y u p u n ti l t o d a y I s a w a n u m b e r, I c a n ’ t c o n f ir m it b u t I s a w i n 20 t h e n e w s p a p e r s t h e y ’r e t a lk in g a b o u t 2 5 b i lli o n t h a t l o c a l M u n ic ip a l i ti e s a r e o w in g E s k o m a n d t h e r e fo r e w e a ls o h a d t o e n s u r e t h a t w e – is t h a t enough? ADV HOFMEYR: T h a t i s i n d e e d th a n k y o u , i t w a s n ’ t a n a ff il i a t i o n t h a t Eskom had with a radio station, 49M? MR CHOEU: I t w a s , i f y o u lo o k a t e v e n t h e s tr a t e g y it u s e d e a c h a n d Page 139 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 e v e r y p l a t fo r m t h a t is w h y, i n f a c t , th e M i n is t e r s t il l, n o t t h r o u g h m e t h r o u g h t h e C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r d e c i d e d – I w a s n o t t h e r e , t h e y d e c i d e d [i n d i s t i n c t ] a n a t io n a l c a m p a i g n o n 4 9 M o n h i s o w n r o l e . So P e t e r s d iv is io n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Oh my God you are going to beat me up. ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: 10 Mr P r e t o r iu s . N o i t ’s fi n e i t ’s j u s t u s e f u l f o r t h e r e c o r d p u r p o s e s . M r Pr e t o r i u s ’ t e a m – I m e a n th e y h a d t o s p e n d a l o t o f – in c l u d i n g t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ffi c e r, w e w o u l d , o n S a t u r d a y g o t o w n s h i p s , y o u k n o w g o to s t a d iu m s a n d w o u l d b r i n g a l l p e o p l e i n t o t h e s t a d i u m s i t w o u l d b e m u s i c , a r tis t s , a lo t o f p e o p l e a n d i t w a s 4 9 M s o there was th a t in s is t e n c e but c o n t i n u a l ly there was [i n d i s t i n c t ] c o m m u n ic a ti n g e ff e c ti v e ly w i t h S o u t h A f r i c a n s . ADV HOFMEYR: T h a n k y o u , i f w e c a n t h e n g o t o t h e th ir d b u ll e t o n p a g e t w o a t t h e b o t t o m , y o u i n d ic a t e t h e r e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR CHOEU: Is th a t 3 . 2 ? ADV HOFMEYR: A t 3 . 2 y e s , t h e t h ir d b u l l e t s a y s , “ T h e n e x t p o li c y o b je c t iv e o f t h e s p o n s o r s h i p w a s to y i e l d a t a n g i b le r e t u r n o n i n v e s t m e n t, 20 Do you see that? MR CHOEU: “ Ta n g i b l e r e tu r n o n in v e s t m e n t t h r o u g h a ir - t i m e o n ” – yes. ADV HOFMEYR: A n d y o u s a y, “ T h e T N A s p o n s o r s h i p y i e l d e d t a n g i b l e r e tu r n o n i n v e s t m e n t Page 140 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 t h r o u g h a ir - t i m e o n S A B C 2 i n o th e r w o r d s o w n i n g tw o a n d a h a l f h o u r s o n S A B C 2 w o u ld h a v e c o s t E s k o m a s u b s ta n ti a l a m o u n t o f m o n e y a n d t h is w a s in c l u d e d i n t h e p r o p o s a l fr o m T N A” , Do you see that? MR CHOEU: Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Mr C h o e u w h y d o y o u s a y t w o a n d a h a lf h o u r s o n I n fa c t i t w a s n o t t w o a n d h a l f h o u r s , I t h i n k it w a s t h r e e h o u r s b e c a u s e i t w a s fr o m 6 o ’c lo c k to 9 o ’ c lo c k … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . 10 ADV HOFMEYR: I th i n k i t w a s 5 7 m in u t e s i n f a c t , i f I m a y j u s t t a k e you to why I say that if you go to page 26. MR CHOEU: My 26? ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Yo u r 2 6 y e s w e l l a t th e t o p o f t h e p a g e i n r e d . Ja. ADV HOFMEYR: Yo u ’ ll s e e t h a t , t h a t is a n A n n e x u r e to t h e fir s t c o n tr a c t th a t w a s c o n c l u d e d w i t h T N A . C h a ir j u s t f o r t h e r e f e r e n c e th e c o n tr a c t b e g i n s a t p a g e 2 1 i t is a c o n tr a c t t h a t w e ’ v e a lr e a d y l o o k e d a t w i t h M r P r e t o r iu s th is m o r n i n g a n d p a g e 2 6 w e a ls o lo o k e d a t b u t y o u ’l l s e e M r C h o e u t h e r e a s o n w h y I s a y it ’s 5 7 mi n u te s a n d n o t i n t h e o r d e r 20 o f t w o a n d a h a l f h o u r s o r t h r e e h o u r s is b e c a u s e in t h e f ir s t b l o c k o n t h e l e f t - h a n d s i d e o f t h e p a g e u n d e r S A B C 2 l iv e c o v e r a g e , h a l f w a y down it says, “ Av e r a g e a ir - t i m e c o v e r a g e f o r t h is e v e n t i s 5 7 m i n u te s ” , Do you see that? MR CHOEU: Ye s I s e e t h a t. Page 141 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: S o is t h a t a c o r r e c ti o n y o u n e e d to m a k e ? It i s a c o r r e c ti o n I n e e d t o m a k e b u t h o w e v e r, w h y I h a d s a i d th r e e h o u r s I w a s t a lk i n g h e r e t o t h e d u r a t io n o f t h e – b e c a u s e w e c a l l e d t h e m 4 9 M b r e a k fa s t, y o u s e e it ’s t h e w h o l e b r e a k f a s t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e y o u r li v e c o v e r a g e w h i c h is n o t a ll th e ti m e , y o u s e e a n d a p a r t fr o m li v e c o v e r a g e y o u h a v e y o u r n o r m a l p e o p le t h a t a r e s i t t in g h e r e t h a t h a v e b o u g h t t a b l e s to c o m e a n d li s t e n h e r e a n d a l l y o u r b a n n e r s a n d w h a t h a v e y o u t h a t is – w e c a l l th e m 4 9 M b r e a k f a s t s . ADV HOFMEYR: 10 I u n d e r s ta n d b u t t h e o n ly p a r t t h a t t h e S A B C 2 w a s b r o a d c a s t in g w a s 5 7 m in u t e s o f t h a t b r e a k f a s t , is t h a t n o t s o ? M R C H O E U : N o w I s e e t h a t I c a n m a k e t h a t c o r r e c ti o n y e s . ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you, you say that…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON : B u t I ’ m s o r r y b u t e v e n t h a t 5 7 m i n u t e s w a s it o n E s k o m , th e w h o le o f i t ? MR CHOEU: N o t a l w a y s , n o t a ll o f t h e t i m e a n d i f y o u h a d a s k e d m e w h a t w a s s o m e o f th e c h a ll e n g e s a n d w e a k n e s s e s w e h a d w i t h t h is a n d t h a t w e w i ll a d d r e s s l a te r. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , n o w h a t I w a n t t o fi n d o u t a s a t t h is s t a g e is w h e t h e r w h e n w e – w h e n y o u s a y 5 7 mi n u te s , th a t w a s 5 7 m i n u te s o f 20 a ir - t i m e fo r E s k o m o n w h a t Es k o m w a n te d to – th e w o r l d t o h e a r a b o u t Eskom? MR CHOEU: N o n o t a l l o f th e t i m e . CHAIRPERSON : S o h o w m u c h a c t u a l a ir - ti m e w o u l d b e g i v e n t o E s k o m , fo r E s k o m t o c o n v e y to t h e w o r l d w h a t it w a n t e d t o c o n v e y ? MR CHOEU: O k a y, l e t m e j u s t e x p la in h o w th is b r e a k f a s t w e r e t h e – Page 142 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 fir s t o f a ll E s k o m w o u l d b e g i v e n t i m e i n a b r e a k f a s t t o s p e a k a n d th a t w o n ’t b e o n li n e y o u s e e a n d t h e n t h e a n n o u n c e r s w il l t a l k t o p e o p l e , E s k o m w a s ta lk in g a b o u t t h is o n t h is is s u e b u t i t w o u l d n ’ t b e o n T V. N u m b e r tw o a n d m o s t i m p o r t a n t ly t h e 5 7 m i n u t e w o u l d b e ta k e n w h e r e , d e p e n d in g o n t h e to p ic o f t h e M in is t e r a n d a t t i m e s t h e M in is t e r s n e v e r f o c u s o n ly o n E s k o m , t h e y w i ll s ta r t a t t h e b e g in n in g in t h e in tr o d u c ti o n t h e n t h e y ’ ll f o c u s o n w h a t t h a t d e p a r t m e n t is a n d t h e n f r o m t h e r e t h e M C – m a y I c a l l t h e m M C f o r th e p u r p o s e o f t o d a y, t h e a n n o u n c e r o r w h a t e v e r y o u c a ll i t , w o u l d t h e n t a k e q u e s ti o n s fr o m t h e p u b li c . S o t h e 10 p u b lic w o u ld t h e n s e n d q u e s ti o n s t h r o u g h a n d t h e y w il l s a y w e h a v e r e c e i v e d t h is q u e s ti o n fr o m C h o s e C h o e u i n B l o e m f o n t e i n , t h i s is t h e q u e s t io n . A t ti m e s t h is q u e s t i o n w o u l d r e l a te t o E s k o m a t ti m e s t h is q u e s t io n w o u ld r e l a t e t o s o m e b o d y e ls e . CHAIRPERSON : W e l l w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t t o l d m e s u g g e s ts t o m e t h a t t h e r e is n o b a s is f o r s a y i n g th a t E s k o m g o t a l o t o f a ir - t i m e t o s a y – t o c o n v e y w h a t e v e r m e s s a g e i t w a n t e d to c o n v e y, a m I c o r r e c t ? MR CHOEU: 20 No you may be correct. CHAIRPERSON : J a o k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: A n d if I m a y ju s t f o l l o w u p o n t h a t , t h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h is b u ll e t p o i n t a t t h e e n d o f p a g e tw o is e n t i tl e d , y ie l d a t a n g i b l e r e tu r n o n i n v e s t m e n t, r ig h t t h a t te n d s t o s u g g e s t t o m e t h a t s o m e s o r t o f c o s t b e n e f i t a n a ly s is is b e i n g d o n e b e t w e e n h o w m u c h i t c o s ts t o g e t t h is a i r - ti m e a n d t h e b e n e fi t a c c r u e d t o Es k o m , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR CHOEU: We never did that because that was supposed to happen p o s t t h e e v e n t a n d t h a t w o u l d b e th e r o l e o f m a s s m a r k e ti n g a f t e r Page 143 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 E s k o m g o t a t i m e t o e v a lu a t e u s i n g a n u m b e r in c l u d i n g th a t , i t w a s never done. ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: Ye s , it w a s n e v e r d o n e ? It w a s n e v e r d o n e . ADV HOFMEYR: S o w h e y th e n d o y o u s a y t h a t T N A s p o n s o r s h i p y ie l d e d ta n g i b l e r e tu r n o n i n v e s t m e n t , if t h a t a n a ly s is w a s n e v e r d o n e ? MR CHOEU: I m a d e t h a t a s s u m p ti o n b e c a u s e I c o u l d – I c a n ’ t q u a n ti fy it b u t I w o u ld n ’ t s a y t o ta ll y t h e r e w a s n o r e t u r n o n o u r i n v e s t m e n t . ADV HOFMEYR: 10 N o M r C h o e u t h e p r o p o s i ti o n is a s f o ll o w s , i f n o a n a ly s is h a d e v e r b e e n d o n e o n th a t li n k b e tw e e n i n v e s t m e n t a n d b e n e fi t h o w c a n th e p o s i t iv e s t a t e m e n t b e th a t th e r e w a s a r e t u r n o n in v e s t m e n t th r o u g h t h e TN A s p o n s o r s h i p ? MR CHOEU: W e l l t h i s m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n p u t t o y o u b u t m y i n te n ti o n w a s to s a y i t c o u l d n ’ t b e th a t th e r e w a s t o ta lly n o f o r m o f i n v e s t m e n t t h a t E s k o m g o t o u t o f t h i s b r e a k f a s t a t a l l , y o u c a n ’ t s a y th e y g o t z e r o b u t y o u a r e c o r r e c t ja . ADV HOFMEYR: MR CHOEU: No, no I wouldn’t say – I’m not saying that. CHAIRPERSON : 20 Yo u c a n ’ t s a y i t g o t a n y t h i n g m o r e t h a n z e r o e i t h e r. W e ll M r C h o e u th a t s e n te n c e t h e r e , r e a d i n c o n t e x t s e e m s to s e e k t o t e l l t h e r e a d e r t h a t a c t u a l ly E s k o m d i d g e t a m e a n i n g f u l r e t u r n o n i ts in v e s t m e n t , w h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t ? MR CHOEU: I w o u l d n ’ t s a y … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : I t ’s n o t p u t in t h e r e t o s a y E s k o m g o t a n e g li g i b l e r e tu r n o n i n v e s t m e n t , it ’s n o t p u t t h e r e f o r t h a t p u r p o s e ? MR CHOEU: T h a t ’s t h e w o r d t h a t I w o u ld h a v e u s e d . Page 144 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : MR CHOEU: Yo u a g r e e w it h t h a t ? Ye s , t h a t I w o u l d h a v e u s e d , I w o u l d n ’ t s a y z e r o . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , s o i f i t is n o t in t e n d e d t o s a y Es k o m g o t n e g li g i b l e – a n e g l i g i b l e r e tu r n th e n i t m u s t b e p u t i n th e r e to c o n v e y t o the reader that whatever return that Eskom got must have been m e a n i n g f u l o r w a s m e a n i n g fu l o t h e r w is e , I t h i n k , i f th e i n te n ti o n w a s d i ff e r e n t I t h o u g h t th a t i t w o u l d b e p u t d i ff e r e n t ly t o s a y, w e ll E s k o m g o t s o m e i n s ig n if ic a n t r e tu r n o r a r e t u r n t h a t ’s n o t r e a l ly w o r t h m e n ti o n i n g . O t h e r w is e w h e n I r e a d t h is s e n t e n c e i n t h i s c o n t e x t i t s e e m s t o c o n v e y 10 t o m e t o s a y, y o u k n o w w h a t E s k o m d id g e t s o m e m e a n i n g f u l r e t u r n . MR CHOEU: N o I h e a r y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : MR CHOEU: Ye s , y o u w o u l d a c c e p t t h a t ? I hear you. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y b u t y o u w a n te d t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th a t m e a n i n g o f i t , a s y o u s i t t h e r e y o u – th a t ’s n o t w h a t y o u w o u ld s a y, a s you sit there today? MR CHOEU: As I s i t h e r e to d a y, w h a t I w o u ld I w o u l d s a y – y o u s e e w h a t I w o u l d n o t s a y – I lik e th e w o r d n e g li g ib le t o a c e r ta i n e x t e n t b e c a u s e e v e n t h e li t tl e s tu d ie s t h a t m a r k e ti n g d i d , d i d t a l k a b o u t 2 8 % 20 t h e r e a n d th a t ty p e o f t h in g , s o t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON : O f c o u r s e i f y o u g e t s o m e th i n g l ik e 2 8 % b e a r i n g i n m i n d w h a t E s k o m h a d p u t i n , th a t w o u l d n ’ t ju s t i fy – w o u l d it j u s ti f y th e in v e s t m e n t ? MR CHOEU: N o C h a ir i t w a s s a y i n g i t ’s 2 8 % fo r t h e to p c l a s s a n d 7 8 % f o r t h e l o w e r c l a s s s o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 145 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y b u t w h a t w a s i t s a y i n g , w a s it s a y i n g th a t t h o s e a r e t h e p e r c e n ta g e s o f t h e p e o p le r e a c h e d o r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . MR CHOEU: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : MR CHOEU: That was the point. J a a n d a l s o t h e d i ff ic u l ty C h a ir, I t h i n k is t h e fa c t t h a t , w h e n y o u a r e w o r k i n g w i th a n e w c o m p a n y, a n e w n e w s p a p e r, a n e w everything you can only make your assessment after about a year minimum. CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s . M R C H O E U : Yo u s e e . D u r i n g t h e y e a r y o u c a n o n l y t a k e p e o p le fr o m t h e ir w o r d in g . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : W e a r e d o i n g t h i s a n d w e th i n k y o u a r e s e l li n g s o m u c h . CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm. M R C H O E U : Yo u s e e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: B u t to d o a n i n d e p e n d e n t - f ir s t o f a ll y o u t a k e w o r d o f m o u th . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M R C H O E U : I t is a s a l e s p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : S a l e s p e o p le w il l o n ly g i v e y o u - t h is c a r w i ll g i v e y o u t h is ( in d is ti n c t) . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : A f te r d r iv i n g i t fo r s o m e t i m e … Page 146 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R C H O E U : Is th e n t h a t y o u w i ll b e a b l e t o c o m e b a c k a n d s a y … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : B u t y o u r f ig u r e s … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : D o n o t t a l ly w i t h … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: My figures. CHAIRPERSON : 10 Hm. I g u e s s t h a t is - t h a t w o u l d b e i n p a r t t h e r a ti o n a le b e h i n d w h a t M r P r e to r i u s s a i d . M R C H O E U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : N a m e ly th a t Eskom does not n e g le c t small n e w c o m e r s , b u t it h a s s o m e t h i n g b u t s o m e th in g t h a t is c o m m e n s u r a t e w i t h t h e r i s k s in v o lv e d a n d w i t h th e ir s i z e . MR CHOEU: And … C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o th e r w o r d s i n t e r m s o f a d v e r ti s i n g . Yo u - y o u g iv e t h e m b u t s o m e t h in g t h a t is n o t t o o m u c h a n d y o u b e a r in m i n d t h e r i s k s in v o lv e d t h a t … M R C H O E U : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t - t h e - t h e r is k s th a t a r e a t ta c h e d t o t h e m . M R C H O E U : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr C h o e u i f w e c a n th e n g o o n t o the next page. MR CHOEU: Hm. Page 147 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 ADV HOFMEYR : Page 3. MR CHOEU: Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u ta lk a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . 4 … MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: A b o u t p o t e n t ia l s p o n s o r s h ip t h a t m e e t Es k o m ’s s p o n s o r s h i p c r it e r ia … MR CHOEU: Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : Ar e p r e s e n t e d t o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t te e f o r fi n a l approval. 10 MR CHOEU: Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : Mr C h o e u i n t h a t r e s p e c t y o u r e v id e n c e is c o n s is te n t w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r P r e t o r i u s t h i s m o r n in g . M R C H O E U : Ye s , y e s . A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: Yo u w e r e in a t te n d a n c e fo r h is e v id e n c e . Is t h a t correct? M R C H O E U : Ye s , y e s . J a . A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o y o u c a n c o n fi r m t h a t a t l e a s t in s o f a r 20 a s th a t a s p e c t is c o n c e r n e d … MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: W o u l d i t b e f a ir t o s a y i t is - i t is p o li c y t h a t th e Sponsorship Committee weigh on all sponsorship proposals? MR CHOEU: That? ADV HOFMEYR: T h a t th e y w e i g h i n . T h a t th e y ta k e a d e c is io n o n Page 148 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s p o n s o r s h i p p r o p o s a ls . M R C H O E U : M o s t d e f in i te ly. A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Yo u t h e n g o o n a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . 5 to s a y : “ T N A’s r e q u e s t f o r a n E s k o m s p o n s o r s h i p f o r t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s w a s n e v e r p r e s e n t e d t o th e Sponsorship Committee and was not assessed to determine w h ic h o f t h e f iv e o b j e c t iv e s o f t h e S p o n s o r s h i p P o l ic y w e r e m e t .” Do you see that? 10 MR CHOEU: Go again. ADV HOFMEYR : At paragraph 3.5. MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: Yo u m a k e t h e r e th a t T N A’s r e q u e s t f o r a n E s k o m s p o n s o r s h i p w a s n e v e r p r e s e n te d t o t h e S p o n s o r s h ip C o m m i t t e e … M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: N o r w a s i t e v e r a s s e s s e d t o d e t e r m in e w h i c h o f t h e fi v e o b j e c ti v e s o f th e S p o n s o r s h i p P o l ic y w e r e m e t . M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR : Do you see that? 20 M R C H O E U : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th a t u n u s u a l ? M R C H O E U : Ye s . It is v e r y, v e r y u n u s u a l b u t I t h i n k t h e c o m m i t t e e - I - I w a s n o t p a r t o f th a t d e c is io n t h a t i t s h o u l d g o h e r e . I t h i n k t h e - t h e m a r k e t in g - t h e m a r k e t in g t e a m w h e n t h e y m a d e t h is d e c is i o n a n d I t h a t ti m e I s u p p o r t t h a t d e c is i o n w a s t h a t t h is i s a c o m b o . T h e y a r e t a lk in g Page 149 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 about newspapers, media and what do you call it? M e d i a a n d s t a k e h o ld e r e n g a g e m e n t a n d a ll t h e s e t h i n g s t o g e th e r. T h a t th e y th o u g h t i t - a n d i t - a s i t c a m e o u t a ls o i n M r Pr e to r i u s t h a t t h a t w a s th e c o n u n d r u m t h a t w e f a c e d th a t th is c o m e s a s a c o m b o a n d t h a t is w h a t h e t h o u g h t t h e p o s s i b l e w a y t o g o t h r o u g h t h is w a s to g o t o M e d i a S h o p . A D V H O F M E Y R : W e l l c o u l d w e j u s t b r e a k th a t d o w n a b i t ? I a m h a p p y t o u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o s a y t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a d v e r t is in g c o m p o n e n t … MR CHOEU: Huh-uh. 10 A D V H O F M E Y R : In t h e f ir s t c o n tr a c t a n d a s p o n s o r s h ip c o m p o n e n t . MR CHOEU: Ja. A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR : For the moment … MR CHOEU: And the broadcasting component. A D V H O F M E Y R : W e l l th e b r o a d c a s ti n g is b o u n d u p i n t h e s p o n s o r s h ip . M R C H O E U : O k a y. A D V H O F M E Y R : Is i t n o t ? M R C H O E U : O k a y. 20 ADV HOFMEYR: Because the sponsorship was of the business breakfast … M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d i t w a s th e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o b e b r o a d c a s t . C o r r e c t? M R C H O E U : J a . N o , b u t w e d id n o t b r e a k i t t h a t w a y th o u g h w e c a ll i t Page 150 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s p o n s o r s h i p . To a s k a ll t h o s e th in g s - y o u s e e i f y o u lo o k a t t h e - th e w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t ? T h e s p o n s o r s h ip c o n tr a c t a l l o f i t i s th a t s p o n s o r t h e b r e a k fa s t a n d in t h e b r e a k fa s t y o u h a v e t h is s u b e l e m e n t . A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R C H O E U : I t w a s n o t s p o n s o r t h i s s u b e le m e n t a n d a b r e a k fa s t. ADV HOFMEYR : No, no. M R C H O E U : S o th e y t o o k i t a s a c o m b o . A D V H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t th in k w e a r e a t c r o s s p u r p o s e s . M R C H O E U : Ye s . 10 A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e r e is a d v e r t is i n g i n th e n e w s p a p e r … M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: Of TNA. MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: Correct and there is sponsorship of the business breakfast. M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? T h o s e a r e tw o d is t in c t p a r ts … M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : O f t h e fir s t c o n tr a c t . 20 M R C H O E U : O f th e c o n t r a c t . ADV HOFMEYR : Correct. MR CHOEU: Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : A t t h e m o m e n t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e s p o n s o r s h i p part. M R C H O E U : O k a y. Page 151 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e p a r t t h a t d e a ls w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s ts … M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n d M r P r e t o r iu s ’ e v i d e n c e it is t h a t a n y s p o n s o r s h i p s t h a t c o m e t o Es k o m m u s t g o t o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e f o r a p p r o v a l. M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR : Correct? M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: 10 T h e T N A’s s p o n s o r s h ip p r o p o s a l d i d n o t g o t o t h e c o m m i t t e e . C o r r e c t? M R C H O E U : D i d n o t . Th e y t o o k t h e w h o l e th i n g a s i t is . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d - n o . L e t u s n o t g o t h e w h o l e t h in g . I a m j u s t in t e r e s te d n o w i n t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p a r t . M R C H O E U : Ye s . I t d i d n o t. A D V H O F M E Y R : It d i d n o t ? M R C H O E U : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: sponsorship A n d t h e n m y q u e s ti o n w a s is t h a t u n u s u a l t h a t a proposal that comes to Eskom d id not go to the Sponsorship Committee? 20 MR CHOEU: I t is u n u s u a l b u t I t h in k a ls o th e y w e r e d e a li n g w i t h a n unusual combo of a request. ADV HOFMEYR: And when we get to the third Eskom contract that d e a lt w i t h o n ly s p o n s o r s h i p s … M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll a c c e p t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t t h a t o v e r la p i s s u e Page 152 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a t a ll ? M R C H O E U : C a n w e p a r k i t a n d t a lk a b o u t b e c a u s e i t w a s a s p e c i a l y e s it t o ta l d i d n o t d e a l w i t h t h a t. ADV HOFMEYR : Thank you. If we then go over to page 4. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : So as far as the sponsorship - the TNA sponsorship … MR CHOEU: Hm. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : P r o p o s a l is c o n c e r n e d b y v ir tu e o f t h e f a c t t h a t i t d i d n o t g o t o th e c o m m i t t e e c o n c e r n e d . I t w a s i n b r e a c h o f t h e p o lic y - S p o n s o r s h i p P o l ic y o f Es k o m ? M R C H O E U : I t w a s , b u t e v e n a ll t h e ( i n d i s t in c t ) n e v e r e v e r s a i d i t w a s in b r e a c h b e c a u s e li k e M r P r e t o r iu s a n n o u n c e d t h a t w h e n w e d e a l w i th m e d i a b e c a u s e t h e y d o th i n g s a t s h o r t n o t ic e . Th a t is w h y w e h a d MediaShop … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : To d e a l w it h e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w e d o w i th m e d i a . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M R C H O E U : In - in r e tr o s p e c t … CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. M R C H O E U : W e s h o u ld h a v e t a k e n - s u b tr a c t e d t h a t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: And taken the sponsorship … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 153 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R C H O E U : To t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : I t w a s i r r e g u l a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: M r C h o e u y o u d i d in f a c t tr y a n d ta k e th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t - w e ll y o u d i d t a k e t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t t o t h e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e fo r a p p r o v a l , b u t i t w a s t u r n e d d o w n . Wa s i t n o t ? M R C H O E U : J a . M a y b e - n o w it is g o in g t o c l e a n s e t h i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u . O h . I t h o u g h t y o u - y o u w e r e m e a n in g s h e 10 might be confusing you. MR CHOEU: Ja. Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h g o in g to t w o c o n tr a c ts . M R C H O E U : T h a t y o u a r e c o n fe r r i n g t h e t w o c o n tr a c ts . A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R C H O E U : A s w e w e r e w o r k i n g w it h T N A is s u e s i n c l u d in g t a k i n g o u r w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t? O u r s u p p l ie r to c o u r t - I m e a n n o t t o c o u r t . To t h e la w y e r s a n d a l l . Th e r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s n o t - w e r e a l ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a m e s tr a i n e d ? MR CHOEU: 20 B e c a m e s tr a i n e d a n d P a r l i a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s s t a r te d a p p e a r i n g a t t h e s a m e t i m e , b u t p a r a ll e l t o t h a t C h a ir P i e t e r Pr e t o r i u s h a d a lr e a d y g o n e to E s k o m S u b c o m m i t t e e o f E x c o c a ll e d t h e I F C to g o a n d te ll t h e m w e d o n o t m o n e y f o r th e s e b r e a k f a s ts . A t c o n c e p ti o n w h e n w e s t a r t w o r k i n g w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e w e th o u g h t th e y a r e s m a l l c o m p a n y th a t a r e c o m i n g in a n d t h e n it w i ll b e o v e r v e r y s o o n . N o w t h e y w a n t m u l t ip l e c o n t r a c ts . Page 154 of 170 W e a r e n o t g o in g t o u s e 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 o u r m o n e y. W e w a n t y o u - I F C - w h ic h is m a d e u p o f Ex c o m e m b e r s t o g iv e u s m o n e y. S o t h e y g a v e u s m o n e y. P a r a l l e l t o t h a t I d e c id e d b e c a u s e o f th e s e P a r li a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s t h a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h a n d t h e r e p u t a ti o n a l r is k t h a t n o w l e t u s t a k e th is t o t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p a r t t o a n d th a t i s w h y … CHAIRPERSON : The committee? MR CHOEU: Th a t is w h y i t - a c t u a l ly i t w a s e v e n a r o u n d ( i n d is t in c t ) r u s h i n g t o s a y l e t u s s a y a n d th e c o m m i t t e e d e c li n e d th a t a n d I s a i d t h a t w e - w i t h E x c o t h a t th e c o m m i t te e d e c l i n e d t h a t t h e d e c is io n h a d 10 a lr e a d y b e e n m a d e t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o s p o n s o r t h e s e b r e a k fa s t s . It w a s my a t te m p t t o r e g u l a r is e t h is t y p e o f t h i n g . S i m il a r t o w h a t Mr P r e t o r iu s d id m e n t io n la t e r th a t w e e v e n w e n t to o u r o w n M A N C O a n d - h o w d o w e r e g u l a r i s e t h e s e r e q u e s t s t h a t a r e n o w m u l ti p l y i n g . Th e g u y s t h a t o r i g in a l ly c a m e a s a s k in g f o r a d v e r t w h i c h w e th o u g h t i t w a s r i g h t . I t is a n e w n e w s p a p e r a n d in f a c t C h a ir, m a y I m e n t io n M e d i a S h o p i ts e lf b e t w e e n 2 0 1 0 , D e c e m b e r w h e n the newspaper was … CHAIRPERSON : Launched. MR CHOEU: Launched … 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: I n M a r c h b e c a u s e o u r f in a n c e s i n - e n d u p i n M a r c h . T h e y h a d a l r e a d y s p e n t o n t h e ir o w n w i t h o u t o u r o w n d i r e c t i o n R 3 0 0 m il li o n . I d o n o t k n o w - n o t 3 0 0 m il li o n - 3 5 0 … CHAIRPERSON : 300 000? M R C H O E U : T h o u s a n d - q u a r t e r b u t p l u s a l i t tl e b i t o v e r a q u a r te r o f a Page 155 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 m il li o n . O n t h e ir o w n a n d th e n w e t h i n k t h e y t h e m s e l v e s w e r e p e r s u a d e d w i t h th e f a c t t h a t i t is a n e w n e w s p a p e r. E v e r y n e w s p a p e r t h a t w e h a v e h e r e h a s b e e n a n e w n e w s p a p e r. CHAIRPERSON : They had spent that amount on The New Age? MR CHOEU: On The New Age advert. CHAIRPERSON : Oh. M R C H O E U : In t h r e e m o n t h s . I d o n o t - I - I d o n o t s e e t h e … CHAIRPERSON : I s a w a r e f e r e n c e t o 3 0 0 0 0 0 i n Mr P r e t o r iu s b u n d l e … 10 M R C H O E U : I t h in k i t w a s 3 4 0 b u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n o t k n o w i f - i f i t w a s r e l a t e d - i t i s r e la t e d t o T h e N e w A g e o r n o t. MR CHOEU: Ja. It was … ADV HOFMEYR: M r C h o e u w i ll y o u h e l p u s w i t h t h a t b e c a u s e th e 3 0 0 0 0 0 th a t I a m a w a r e o f i n Mr P r e t o r iu s ’ a ff i d a v i t … MR CHOEU: Ja. A D V H O F M E Y R : R e l a te s t o t h e c o s t o f s u p p o r ti n g a M a l e & G u a r d i a n breakfast. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s . I ( in t e r v e n e s ) . 20 A D V H O F M E Y R : H e w a s t r y i n g to d r a w a c o m p a r is o n CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V H O F M E Y R : B e tw e e n M a i l & G u a r d ia n a n d th e 1 . 2 m il li o n … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: P e r b r e a k fa s t t h a t w a s c h a r g e d b y T N A , b u t I a m in t e r e s te d i n y o u r p o in t a b o u t b e tw e e n t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 0 a n d M a r c h … Page 156 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : 2 0 11 … M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d s o m e s p e n d b y th e M e d i a S h o p w it h T N A … MR CHOEU: Ja. ADV HOFMEYR: B e c a u s e y o u w i ll h a v e h e a r d fr o m M r P r e t o r i u s ’ evidence … MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: 10 T h a t th e v i e w o f t h e M e d i a S h o p a t th e t i m e t h a t th e fir s t c o n tr a c t w a s e n te r e d in t o w a s t h a t it d i d n o t m a k e b u s i n e s s s e n s e … MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: F o r Es k o m t o e n te r in t o t h a t c o n t r a c t . So you are aware of that? MR CHOEU: Ye s . I am - I am very m uch aware of that. In fact e v e r y b o d y a n d a l l t h e q u e s t io n s fr o m th e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r a n d fr o m P a r li a m e n t a ll o f t h e m w e r e s a y i n g t h e s a m e . A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R C H O E U : F o r o u r r e p u t a ti o n i t w a s n o t g o o d a t a l l e v e n … 20 ADV HOFMEYR : Well … MR CHOEU: Ja. A D V H O F M E Y R : L e t u s j u s t s t a r t w i th … CHAIRPERSON : B u t I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. I t h in k Ms H o f m e y r is s p e c i f ic a l ly a s k in g w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a w a r e a t th e ti m e t h a t … M R C H O E U : N o , n o . I t w a s n o t s h a r e d w i t h m e a t a ll . Page 157 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 CHAIRPERSON : That … M R C H O E U : N o . It w a s a c o m m u n i c a t io n b e t w e e n th e m s e lv e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H a n g o n , h a n g o n , h a n g o n . L e t u s n o t s p e a k at the same time. M R C H O E U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON : S h e i s a s k i n g w h e th e r y o u w e r e a w a r e a t t h e ti m e that MediaShop had spent that kind of money on The New Age. M R C H O E U : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I t is s o m e t h i n g y o u g o t t o k n o w l a te r ? 10 MR CHOEU: I n fa c t o n l y w h e n I w a s p u t t in g to g e th e r - I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e i s - I d o n o t h a v e th e a n n e x u r e h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I n p r e p a r a t io n fo r y o u r e v i d e n c e h e r e ? M R C H O E U : Ye s . I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e I s a w - s a w i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: M r C h o e u I w o u ld l ik e a s s is t a n c e w i t h t h a t a n d i t is a l m o s t i n e v i ta b l e t h a t w e w i ll n o t c o m p l e t e M r C h o e u ’s e v i d e n c e to d a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV HOFMEYR: 20 S o m a y b e i t is s o m e t h i n g h e c a n j u s t lo o k f o r overnight. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n lo o k i t - l o o k i t u p o v e r n ig h t … MR CHOEU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n to m o r r o w w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k . M R C H O E U : I a m - I - I h o p e I w i ll b e a b l e to … ADV HOFMEYR: B e c a u s e c a n I te ll y o u w h y I a m p a r t ic u l a r ly Page 158 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 in t e r e s te d in receiving that Mr Choeu because it seems to be d i a m e tr ic a l ly o p p o s e d t o w h a t t h e M e d ia S h o p r e p o r t e d t o M r Pr e t o r i u s w h e n t h e r e s p o n s e s t o t h e P a r l ia m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s c a m e t h r o u g h i n 2012. MR CHOEU: Huh-uh. ADV HOFMEYR: lo o k e d at e a r l ie r Yo u m ig h t r e c a l l t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e m a i l t h a t w e today from M s Z ik a l a l a of the MediaShop to M r Pr e to r i u s . MR CHOEU: Hm. 10 ADV HOFMEYR: W h e r e s h e i n d ic a t e d t o h i m s h e h a d m a d e c o n t a c t w i t h M r D e p o k o w h o w a s th e r e a t t h e ti m e o f t h e o r ig in a t io n o f t h i s c o n tr a c t a n d h e h a d in s t r u c t e d t h a t a d v e r ti s i n g i n t h e p a p e r g iv e n t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y w o u l d n o t b e i n E s k o m ’s in t e r e s ts . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t evidence? MR CHOEU: Ye s a n d s h e w a s t e l li n g M r P r e t o r i u s g iv in g M r P r e t o r i u s t h is in f o r m a t io n a f t e r th e f a c t t o . A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b u t w a s M r D e p o k o ’s … M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A t t i t u d e a t t h e ti m e t h a t t h e fir s t c o n t r a c t w a s b e in g 20 e n t e r e d i n to . Th a t it d id n o t m a k e c o m m e r c ia l s e n s e fo r Es k o m t o e n t e r in t o t h a t c o n tr a c t . M R C H O E U : J a . Th a t is - s ta y o n - th a t i s w h a t w a s fo r m e - y e s . I - I s a w th a t th a t a n d i t w a s i n t e r e s ti n g t h a t i t w a s n o t s h a r e d w i th M r Pr e to r i u s w h e n M r Pr e t o r i u s s t a r t e d th e f ir s t c o n tr a c t . H e is o n ly t o l d w h e n P a r li a m e n ta r y q u e s ti o n s a r e p r e s e n t e d a n d I w a s n e v e r t o l d Page 159 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 a b o u t it b e c a u s e t h i s i s s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t h a t w e a p p o in t e d in o r d e r t o m a k e u s c o n s c ie n c e o f t h o s e t y p e o f t h i n g s . ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. I - I w il l t a k e y o u to M r P r e t o r iu s ’ a ffi d a v i t a n d w h a t h e i n d ic a t e s h e d i d r e l a y t o y o u a f t e r th e fi r s t in t e r a c ti o n s w i th T N A , b u t i f w e m a y g e t t h e r e in a m o m e n t, b e c a u s e I w o u ld li k e s e q u e n ti a lly t o d e a l w i th e a c h c o n tr a c t i f w e m a y a n d a t t h i s s t a g e w e a c t u a l ly i n th e i n tr o d u c t o r y s e c t i o n o f y o u r a ff id a v i t . S o l e t u s m a y b e c o n t in u e a t t h e i n t r o d u c t o r y l e v e l a n d th e n w e g o t o t h e d e t a i ls o f e a c h c o n tr a c t . Mr C h o e u i f w e c a n p i c k it u p a t 10 p a g e 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it a n d p a r tic u la r ly a t p a r a g r a p h 3 .7 . MR CHOEU: Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . 7 : “ I n o r d e r f o r E s k o m t o c o n s id e r a s p o n s o r s h i p r e q u e s t t h e f o ll o w i n g c r i t e r ia w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p li e d .” A n d th e n y o u g iv e a p r i m a r y w e i g h t i n g c r i t e r i a u n d e r A a n d a s e c o n d a r y w e i g h ti n g c r i t e r i a u n d e r B . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: 20 I w o u ld li k e t o p ic k u p o n o n e o r t w o a s p e c t s o f t h e p r i m a r y s e l e c t io n c r i te r i a . T h e fo u r t h b u l l e t p o in t d o w n . M R C H O E U : O n e , t w o , t h r e e , fo u r - t h e la s t o n e ? A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e - t h e s e c o n d fr o m l a s t . MR CHOEU: Ja. A D V H O F M E Y R : It s a y s : “ Pa r t n e r s m u s t b e a b l e t o d e liv e r. T h e y m u s t h a v e Page 160 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 r e s o u r c e s a n d e x p e r i e n c e a n d a tr a c k r e c o r d o f s u c c e s s .” Do you see that? MR CHOEU: Hm. A D V H O F M E Y R : H o w a s t h a t e v a lu a t e d f o r T N A ? M R C H O E U : N o , b e c a u s e ( in d i s ti n c t) . A D V H O F M E Y R : If y o u c o u l d j u s t tu r n o n y o u r … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J a , t u r n o n y o u r … ADV HOFMEYR : Thank you. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o I t h o u g h t y o u s a id p a g e 4 . MR CHOEU: Ja. It is page 4. C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r. A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . O f th e a ffi d a v i t . P a g e 4 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d p a r a g r a p h 3 .7 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : It is th e f o u r t h b u ll e t d o w n . CHAIRPERSON : Oh. Ja. Thank you. A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. I w a s a s k in g w h e t h e r th e tr a c k r e c o r d w a s 20 c a p a b le o f b e i n g a s s e s s e d w i th T N A . MR CHOEU: N o . I f y o u lo o k a t 3 . 8 - I a m s o r r y. T h e r e is a m is t a k e there. “ T h e a b o v e s p o n s o r s h i p c r i t e r i a w a s n o t a p p li e d t o t h e TN A S p o n s o r s h ip r e q u e s t. a p p li e d - s o n o t a p p li e d . T h is c r i t e r i a w a s I t is s u p p o s e d to b e - Page 161 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 s o r r y. N o t a p p l ie d t h e r e - b e c a u s e E s k o m h a d a media buying agency - the MediaShop and was r e s o l v e d t h a t w e w o u ld s u p p o r t t h r o u g h t h e e x is t in g r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e m e d i a b u y in g a g e n c y. ” S o th e - t h e s h o r t o f it a l l w e d i d n o t a p p ly t h e s e - b e c a u s e w e d i d n o t g o t o th e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t t e e . A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . MR CHOEU: Ja M r Pi e t e r Pr e to r i u s 10 and d id in not fact let e x p la i n . me just N o r m a l ly expl ain even because b e fo r e the s p o n s o r s h i p g o e s t o t h e c o m m i t t e e th e r e w a s a t e a m t h a t r e p o r ts t o M r Pr e to r i u s . Th e n t h e y w o u l d l o o k a t t h e s p o n s o r s h i p . S o th a t b y t h e ti m e t h e y g o t o t h e - y o u w o u l d k n o w a l m o s t w h e r e t h e y h a v e - b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e t h is c r it e r ia a n d th e t e a m - M A N C O m e e t i n g d o e s n o t h a v e t h e ti m e t o g o t h r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y c r it e r i a . S o t h e y w il l g o th r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y c r it e r ia a n d t h e y h a d a w e i g h ti n g t h a t t h e y u s e f o r e v e r y t h i n g a n d i t d i d n o t g o th r o u g h t h a t . A D V H O F M E Y R : L e t u s m o v e t o p a g e 5 t h e n a n d ju s t g o s y s t e m a t ic a l ly t h r o u g h t h e g e n e s is o f e a c h o f t h e s e c o n tr a c ts … M R C H O E U : Ye s . 20 A D V H O F M E Y R : If w e m a y b e c a u s e I w o u l d li k e t o tr a c k … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r. A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t - n o t s u r e w h e t h e r I u n d e r s t o o d M r C h o e u ’s a n s w e r. Yo u - y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o - y o u s a i d s o m e t h in g th a t s u g g e s t e d t o m e t h a t y o u w e r e s a y in g y o u d i d n o t - t h e T N A Page 162 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 S p o n s o r s h i p d id n o t g o t o t h e c o m m i t t e e b e c a u s e y o u u s e d t h e MediaShop. M R C H O E U : T h i s is - ja . T h a t - w e t o o k i t to t h e M e d ia S h o p . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M R C H O E U : In s te a d o f ta k i n g i t t o th e c o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON : Is - i s t h e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t if i t is d e a l t w i th b y t h e M e d i a S h o p t h e n i t d id n o t h a v e t o g o t h e c o m m i t t e e ? M R C H O E U : T h is i s w h a t w e th o u g h t s o b e c a u s e w e a r e l o o k in g a t i t fr o m o u r p o i n t o f v i e w … 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : As a c o m b o . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : Th a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d a - a r e q u e s t fr o m m e d i a a n d t h i s d e c is i o n w a s w i th a ( i n d is t in c t) t h a t c a m e fr o m t h e - th e m a r k e ti n g team. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : T h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e m e d ia - w h a t d o t h e y c a ll i t? W i th a m e d i a h o u s e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M R C H O E U : T h e w a y w e d e a l w i th a l l m e d ia h o u s e s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: We go through. I am not e ven aware whether because I was not at Eskom. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: W h e n w e d e a l t w it h - t h e d a te s a r e n o t h e r e . Page 163 of 170 When we 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 d e a lt w i th - w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t ? M a l e & G u a r d i a n a s w a s m e n ti o n e d . W h e t h e r d i d w e g o s tr a ig h t to M e d i a S h o p o r d i d w e g o t o t h e … ADV HOFMEYR: W e ll Mr C h o e u i f i t w a s a s p o n s o r s h i p t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n n o r e a s o n t o g o to M e d ia S h o p ( i n te r v e n e s ) . MR CHOEU: No. I do not know whether - where it went. A D V H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s ta n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u s e e I w a s tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d . M R C H O E U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : 10 W h e r e t h e M e d i a S h o p f i ts i n i n s o f a r a s t h e q u e s ti o n o f - th e q u e s t i o n w h e t h e r y o u s h o u ld h a v e o r s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n t a k e n t o t h e c o m m i t te e . MR CHOEU: Ja. CHAIRPERSON : S o I w a s t r y i n g t o - t o u n d e r s ta n d w h e t h e r y o u a r e s a y in g b e c a u s e i t w e n t t o th e M e d i a S h o p o r b e c a u s e i t h a d t o b e t a k e n to the MediaShop … MR CHOEU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o o b li g a ti o n t o t a k e i t t o t h e c o m m i t te e . MR CHOEU: No. No, no, not. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h a t e x a c tly a r e y o u s a y in g ? 20 MR CHOEU: No. I am not saying that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C H O E U : I a m s a y i n g t h e te a m … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : A p p a r e n t ly d e c i d e d t o t a k e i t s tr a ig h t t o M e d i a S h o p … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 164 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 MR CHOEU: Because the whole combo … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR CHOEU: It was not one thing. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: It was MediaShop saying would you sponsor … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R C H O E U : A n d t h e n w e h a v e t h e s e l it t le th i n g s v … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR CHOEU: 10 A d v e r tis in g a n d th is a n d th is a n d t h i s a n d s p o n s o r t h e breakfast … CHAIRPERSON : And … M R C H O E U : A n d t o o k i t a s i t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y t a k in g i t t h e r e h a d n o t h in g … MR CHOEU: It … C H A I R P E R S O N : To d o w i t h n o t ta k i n g i t t o - t o th e c o m m i t t e e . M R C H O E U : N o . I - i n my m i n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e a r e tw o s e p a r a t e t h i n g s . MR CHOEU: It was a mistake. Th e y s h o u l d h a v e t a k e n - w e s h o u ld h a v e t a k e n o u t. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Oh. MR CHOEU: They did … CHAIRPERSON : The sponsorship? M R C H O E U : O u t o f th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O f a c o m b o - a s y o u c a ll it ? M R C H O E U : O u t o f th e c o m b o . Page 165 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t . ADV HOFMEYR: In d e e d . S o i f w e g o b a c k to 3 . 8 t h e n M r C h o e u I s u g g e s t t o y o u t h a t t h e r e d o e s n o t n e e d t o b e a f u r t h e r r e v is i o n t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t … MR CHOEU: Oh no. ADV HOFMEYR: Because you say there at paragraph 3.8 on page 4 that: “ T h e a b o v e s p o n s o r s h i p c r i t e r i a w a s n o t a p p li e d t o t h e T N A s p o n s o r s h i p r e q u e s ts .” 10 MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR : And you say: “ T h i s c r i t e r i a w a s n o t a p p li e d b e c a u s e E s k o m h a d a media buying agent - the MediaShop - and we resolved that we would support TNA through the e x i s ti n g r e la t io n s h ip w i t h th e m e d i a b u y i n g a g e n t . ” M R C H O E U : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o h a v e c la r i fi e d f o r u s n o w i s t h a t in s o f a r a s t h e r e w a s a s p o n s o r s h i p c o m p o n e n t o f t h e fi r s t c o n t r a c t with TNA … 20 MR CHOEU: Hm. ADV HOFMEYR: That ought to have gone to the S p o n s o r s h ip Committee. Correct? MR CHOEU: Hm. That ought to have gone there. A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R C H O E U : J a , b u t t h i s is w h a t I r e a lis e d a f t e r t h e f a c t w h e n a ll th e s e Page 166 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 q u e s t io n s … A D V H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s ta n d . M R C H O E U : Ar e b e in g a s k e d . A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t s o t h a t w e c a n b e c l e a r. In d e e d . M R C H O E U : O k a y. A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . L e t u s g o t h e n o v e r i f w e m a y to p a g e 5 . C h a ir w e a r e a f e w m i n u te s b e f o r e t h e e n d a n d I a m g o i n g to n o w s ta r t t h e t o p ic o f t h e d e ta il o f e a c h c o n tr a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 ADV HOFMEYR: I a m h a p p y t o c o n t in u e f o r a f e w m i n u t e s o r t o t a k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d p ic k i t u p to m o r r o w m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is y o u r a s s e s s m e n t o f o u r c h a n c e s o f fi n i s h i n g r e a s o n a b ly o n ti m e o n Fr i d a y ? W e m ig h t h a v e t o - to a d d s o m e t i m e during the week … A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : To m a k e s u r e t h a t o n Fr i d a y w e fi n i s h … A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th a t a t le a s t w e d o n o t fi n is h t o o la t e . ADV HOFMEYR: 20 C h a ir m y s e n s e a t t h e m o m e n t is t h a t w e h a v e h i t c r u n c h e d t i m e y e t f o r w a n t o f a b e t te r d e s c r i p ti o n . T h e r e a s o n f o r t h a t is th a t w e h a v e Mr C h o e u r e t u r n in g to m o r r o w a n d o n e o t h e r w i t n e s s t o m o r r o w a n d I a m f a i r ly c o n fi d e n t w e w i ll c o m p le t e b o t h o f t h e m i n th e c o u r s e o f t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: T h e t h ir d w i t n e s s is s c h e d u l e d t o j o in u s fr o m Page 167 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 Thursday … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV HOFMEYR: A n d i t m a y b e t h a t fr o m T h u r s d a y w e m a y w a n t t o s t a r t a b i t e a r l ie r o r e x t e n d l a t e r t o b e s u r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : To c o m p le t e b y Fr i d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : I f t h a t s u i ts y o u , b u t a t t h e m o m e n t I - I d o n o t s e e a need to … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : To - to a d d m o r e . A D V H O F M E Y R : E x t e n d t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. ADV HOFMEYR: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n m a y b e w e s h o u l d s t o p s o t h a t t o m o r r o w y o u c a n t h e n s t a r t o n th e n e w … A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f e a t u r e s o f t h e d e ta il s … A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON : 20 B u t m a y b e d e p e n d in g o n h o w l o n g y o u r l a s t w it n e s s is m a y b e - i t m a y b e t h a t w e s h o u l d c o n s i d e r e a r ly o n T h u r s d a y … A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON : O r f in is h i n g l a te . S o th a t w e w il l b e a s s u r e d o f fi n i s h i n g o n F r i d a y. A D V H O F M E Y R : W e w o u l d b e in d e b t e d f o r t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 168 of 170 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 A D V H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y C h a ir w i t h y o u r l e a v e s u g g e s t t h a t w e a lr e a d y c o n ta c t t h e T h u r s d a y w i t n e s s fo r a n e a r li e r s t a r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , y e s , y e s . A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t b e c a u s e th a t w il l … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k s o . ADV HOFMEYR : Put us ahead of the schedule. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. S o … A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t ti m e w o u l d b e c o n v e n i e n t fo r Th u r s d a y C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON : 10 D e p e n d i n g a g a i n o n h o w l o n g y o u t h in k e a c h o n e o f t h e la s t w i t n e s s e s … ADV HOFMEYR: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: W il l b e . T h e r e is a p o s s ib il i ty o f s ta r t i n g a t n i n e o r 0 9 : 3 0 . T h e r e is a p o s s i b i li ty o f g o in g to fi v e o r - o r e v e n h a l f p a s t fi v e . A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. S o t h a t t h e r e a r e th o s e p o s s i b i li ti e s . S o … A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t y o u r - w h a t y o u r s e n s e is . A D V H O F M E Y R : If I m a y ju s t t a k e a m o m e n t . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV HOFMEYR: C h a ir m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d M r M b i k i w a h a s g o t a b e t t e r s e n s e o f ti m i n g t h a n I d o s u g g e s t s w e s t a r t a t n i n e o n T h u r s d a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e i f w e m a y. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . O k a y. No. T h a t is fi n e . Page 169 of 170 T h e n w e d o th a t o n 29 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 184 T h u r s d a y. A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . 1 0 o ’ c lo c k t o m o r r o w. M r C h o e u w e a r e g o in g t o a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k to m o r r o w m o r n i n g a t w h i c h s t a g e y o u w il l th e n c o n t in u e w i th y o u r e v i d e n c e . M R C H O E U : O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV HOFMEYR : Thank you. M R C H O E U : I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o fi n is h . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e - w e a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y. W e a d j o u r n . REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 3 0 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 170 of 170