C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 20 SEPTEMB ER 2019 D AY 1 6 8 20 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 20 SEPT EMB ER 2019 CHAIRPERSON: Good m o r n in g Ms S e p t e m b e r, good m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w e a r e s t a r ti n g l a t e r t h a n I s a i d w e w o u l d s t a r t b u t l e t u s s ta r t – l e t u s s ta r t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 Ye s w e a r e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Mr R o e l o f – M r R o e l o f s e w e a r e o n p a g e 6 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n b u n d l e K K 2 . 1 . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d y e s t e r d a y w e c o n c lu d e d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e e m a il t h a t y o u s e n t to B r i g a d i e r M o o d le y w h ic h a c c o u n t e d w h a t t r a n s p i r e d a t t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d w it h G e n e r a l N t le m e z a o n t h e 1 5 t h J u ly 2 0 1 5 . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. F o l lo w i n g y o u r a c c o u n t s e n t o n t h a t d a t e w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f te r ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir a s I t e s ti fi e d y e s t e r d a y G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a tr a n s f e r r e d B r ig a d i e r M o o d l e y to th e r e g u l a r S o u th A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e . A n d fr o m t h e r e th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n d id n o t c o n ti n u e d u r i n g t h e ti m e t h a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w a s t h e h e a d o f th e D P C I . I – I h a d a n d s t il l h a v e c u s to d y o f a ll t h e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t a ti o n Page 2 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 t h a t I – th a t w a s s e iz e d in t h e b e g i n n i n g in 2 0 11 . A p a r t fr o m th e d o c u m e n ts th a t I g a v e t o B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y f o r t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n . I n e v e r – I w a s n e v e r a s k e d b y a n y o n e t o s u p p ly a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n o r for any in v e s t i g a t io n in v e s t i g a t io n s . to T h e r e fo r e c o n ti n u e in my and th a t o p in i o n i n c lu d e s d is c i p l in a r y General Mtlemeza has e ffe c tiv e l y s t o p p e d a n y c o n ti n u a t i o n o r p r o g r e s s i n r e s p e c t o f n o t o n ly t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t a ll o t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s r e g a r d i n g th e a ll e g e d o f C I – t h e a b u s e o f C I fu n d s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 A n d b e fo r e y o u t u r n t h e p a g e a r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y a d d i ti o n a l m e e t in g s t h a t w e r e c a l l e d f o r b y A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s in r e la t io n t o t h e d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts ? A n d I a m s p e c i f ic a ll y r e f e r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 2 0 8 . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir o n t h e 1 6 J u l y 2 0 1 5 I w a s i n fo r m e d t h r o u g h a n e m a i l b y A d v o c a t e R o s s o u w w h o w a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r in t h e m a t t e r t h a t A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s w o u ld – w o u l d lik e t o h a v e a b r i e fi n g r e g a r d i n g t h e d e c la s s if ic a ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n o n t h e 2 2 J u ly 2 0 1 5 . presence. A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms r e q u e s t e d t h e n t h e – my I h o w e v e r n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m G e n e r a l M t l e m e z a ’s o ffi c e r e g a r d i n g t h e b r i e fi n g a n d t h e r e f o r e d id n o t a t t e n d . 20 T h e b r i e fi n g w a s s e n t d ir e c tly t o m e – a c o p y t o m e b y A d v o c a te R o s s o u w. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: A n d y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d in y o u r c a p a c i ty a s i n v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o a t t e n d a n d in m y c a p a c i ty a s th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r, y e s C h a ir. Page 3 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h is w a s n o t w i t h s ta n d i n g t h e in s t r u c t i o n b y G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a t h r e e d a y s e a r l i e r w h ic h c a u s e d y o u t o s t o p t h e – c a l li n g y o u t o s to p t h e in v e s t i g a ti o n . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ye s … O r r a t h e r n o lo n g e r b e i n v o lv e d i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms k n e w t h a t I w a s – t h a t I w a s i n s tr u c t e d t o s t o p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I n r e l a ti o n t o m e d ia q u e r i e s h a v e y o u r e c e iv e d a n y m e d i a q u e r ie s o r r a th e r s i n c e th a t d a t e w h ic h y o u w e r e r e q u ir e d t o a t t e n d t o ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir o n t h e 1 7 J u ly I w a s – I w a s r e q u e s te d t o a t te n d to a m e d i a e n q u ir y f r o m M r B a r r y B a te m a n . A n d I – le t m e r e p h r a s e t h a t. O n t h e 1 7 J u ly 2 0 1 5 B a r r y B a t e m a n s e n t a m e d i a e n q u ir y t o t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n p o lic e . O n t h e 2 0 J u ly I w a s a s k e d to c o m m e n t o n t h a t e n q u i r y o f i n q u ir y. I t w a s s e n t to t h e o ff ic e o f G e n e r a l M n o n o p i f o r a r e s p o n s e b y 1 4 : 0 0 o n t h e s a m e d a y. I r e s p o n d e d o n t h e s a m e d a y a n d I c o p y – a c o p y o f t h e e m a i l w h ic h 20 in c l u d e s m y r e s p o n s e i s a t t a c h e d a s K D R 4 8 . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th e m e d i a e n q u ir y w a s p u b l is h e d b u t – a n d w h y I w a s a s k e d t o r e s p o n d . I a ls o d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r m y r e s p o n s e i s t o t h e m e d ia e n q u ir y w e r e ever released to Bateman. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 4 3 6 please. Page 4 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 436. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: A n d i t i s A n n e x u r e 4 8 fo r t h e r e c o r d . Is t h is t h e e m a il c o m m u n ic a ti o n a u th o r e d b y y o u r s e lf ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h is w a s i n r e s p o n s e t o th e media query? 10 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t – f o r th e r e c o r d it is a n e m a i l c o m m u n ic a ti o n d a t e d th e 2 0 J u ly 2 0 1 5 a t 1 0 :0 7 fr o m K o b u s – C o l o n e l K o b u s R o e lo f s e t o W e s t e r n C a p e D P C I S e c r e ta r y – s u b j e c t t i tl e M e d ia Q u e r y M d lu li a n d th e c la s s if i e d d o c u m e n t s . It a p p e a r s t o b e q u it e a c o m p r e h e n s iv e r e s p o n s e b u t fo r p u r p o s e s o f h i g h li g h t i n g a n y k e y p o i n t c a n I a s k y o u t o g o to t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h a f t e r th e – s o r r y – a ft e r the … MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e f if t h p a r a g r a p h s o r r y. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir I … I think we are on the … It is p a g e 4 3 6 . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s s o r r y I w a s o n t h e w r o n g p a g e . S o r r y C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I a s k y o u t o p l e a s e r e a d th e p a r a g r a p h w h i c h b e g i n s w it h “ I u n d e r s ta n d ” w h i c h is a b o u t a t h ir d d o w n in t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n . Page 5 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: S o r r y C h a ir. C h a i r t h i s – t h is is a – t h is is t h e q u e s ti o n fr o m M r B a r r y B a t e m a n . “ I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t p o l ic e m a n a g e m e n t a ll e g e t h a t th e d o c u m e n ts c a n n o t b e d e c la s s i f ie d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s t o l e n fr o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e . I understand that t h e r e is a n i s s u e o f w h e t h e r t h e d o c u m e n t s in th e I O ’s p o s s e s s i o n a r e t h e o r ig in a ls o r c o p ie s o f t h e s u p p o s e d l y s to le n d o c u m e n ts . ” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 For purposes of the record IO stands for: MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: I n v e s ti g a ti n g O ff ic e r C h a ir. A n d w h a t c o m m e n t d o y o u h a v e to t h is ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: My comment is just: “ I c a n n o t a n s w e r o n b e h a l f o f p o l ic e m a n a g e m e n t a s t o t h e a ll e g a t i o n t h a t t h e c l a s s i f ie d d o c u m e n ts w e r e s t o l e n . W h o e v e r m a d e th e a l l e g a ti o n s h o u l d a n s w e r same. I c a n s t a t e c a t e g o r ic a lly t h a t t h e c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts 20 were not stolen and were o b ta in e d le g a l ly. ” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: If we can then go back to page 62 of y o u r a ff i d a v i t p l e a s e . CHAIRPERSON: J u s t t o g o b a c k t o th e 1 3 J u ly d i d y o u e v e r g e t a n y r e p o r t a s to w h e t h e r th e m e e ti n g t h a t G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a s a i d h e w o u ld a tt e n d a l o n e w i th A d v o c a te S h a u n A b r a h a m s w h ic h y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d Page 6 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 t o h a v e a t t e n d e d w h e t h e r i t to o k p l a c e a n d i f s o h o w i t w e n t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a i r I w a s – I w a s in f o r m e d t h e m e e ti n g d i d i n f a c t t a k e p l a c e . I w a s i n f o r m e d th a t b y t h e p r o s e c u t o r A d v o c a t e R o s s o u w. H e a t t e n d e d t h e m e e t in g . H e d i d n o t i n d e t a il t o l d m e w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e m e e ti n g s u ff ic e t o s a y t h a t i t w a s n o t a v e r y p l e a s a n t m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t a p le a s a n t m e e ti n g ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: It was not a pleasant meeting. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ac c o r d i n g t o h i m G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a r e g a r d e d th e m a s n o t – n o t in a u t h o r i ty t o – t o c a n t e l l h i m what he can do or cannot do. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a p l a n t o c a l l Mr R o s s o u w ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I am not aware of it but if I could ju s t c h e c k q u i c k l y p le a s e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t i s i m p o r ta n t t o g e t s o m e b o d y w h o w a s p r e s e n t a t t h a t m e e ti n g to c o m e a n d t e l l m e w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir w e w il l d o s o . A n d h a s a s t a te m e n t b e e n o b t a i n e d fr o m B r i g a d ie r M o o d le y a ls o i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t t o g e t a s t a t e m e n t fr o m him about a number of things but in particular about the meeting that M r R o e l o fs e h a s t e s ti f ie d a b o u t t h a t t h e t w o o f t h e m a tt e n d e d o r h a d w i t h G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w h e r e G e n e r a l N t le m e z a s t o p p e d C o lo n e l R o e lo fs e c o n ti n u i n g t o i n v e s ti g a te . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e w il l n o t e t h a t . Page 7 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 I f w e c o u l d t h e n g o b a c k t o p a g e 6 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir i f I m a y I j u s t w a n t to in f o r m – i n fo r m t h e c o m m is s i o n t h a t I d i d c o m p a r e th e id e n ti ty n u m b e r o f M s R a n je n i M u n u s a my. T h e o n e i n m y p o s s e s s io n w i th th e o n e t h a t w a s g iv e n to t h e c o m m i s s io n i t is th e s a m e i d e n ti ty n u m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e s a m e I D n u m b e r ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 A t p a g e 6 2 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t is i t c o r r e c t t h a t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w a s d i s m is s e d o n o r a b o u t t h e 1 5 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 7 ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d th i s w a s fo ll o w i n g t h e j u d g m e n t in t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l w h ic h f o u n d t h a t t h e d e c is i o n o f M r N h l e k o w h o w a s t h e M i n is te r o f P o li c e a t t h e t i m e w a s ir r a t i o n a l a n d u n l a w f u l w h e n a p p o i n ti n g G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a t o th e h e a d o f D P C I? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: C h a i r a c o p y o f t h a t j u d g m e n t is in c l u d e d i n t h e R e g u l a to r y b u n d l e w h i c h is a t E x h i b i t 2 .4 . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t a j u d g m e n t o r w a s i t j u s t a n o r d e r d is m i s s i n g a n A p p l ic a ti o n f o r L e a v e to A p p e a l? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: It w a s a j u d g m e n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: At the SCA? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 8 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: F o r y o u r r e f e r e n c e i t i s t h e l a s t ta b w h ic h s t a r ts a t p a g e 3 6 8 . CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 M r R o e l o fs e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir o n t h e 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 A d v o c a t e R o s s o u w e m a il e d m e r e q u e s t i n g a n u r g e n t m e e ti n g . H is e m a i l a t ta c h – a t t a c h v a r io u s l e t te r s w h ic h c o n fi r m – w h i c h i n fo r m e d m e t h a t A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms th e N D P P r e q u e s t e d th e a s s i s t a n c e o f t h e n e w 10 a c ti n g N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n o f S A P S L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l J K K h o m o ts o P h a h l a n e w h ic h h e w a s a p p o i n te d o n th e 1 5 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 i n g e t ti n g d o c u m e n ts needed in evidence in the CI c r i m in a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n d e c l a s s i fi e d . G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a g r e e d i n w r i t in g t o a s s is t – a g r e e d in w r i t in g t o a s s i s t A d v o c a te A b r a h a m s a n d a g r e e d t o t h e s e tt i n g u p o f a p r o c e s s t o d e c l a s s i fy th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s i n fo r m e d G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e th a t h e w il l i n f o r m t h e p r o s e c u t o r o f t h e d e c is i o n t o s e t u p a p r o c e s s to d e c la s s if y t h e d o c u m e n t s . A n d a c o p y o f t h e s e o f le t t e r s a s – i s a t t a c h e d to m y a ff id a v i t a n d I f o r w a r d e d t h i s t o G e n e r a l M a t h a k a t h a t h e r e a f t e r. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 4… C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y o n e s e c o n d . Yo u h a v e a t 2 1 3 a r e f e r e n c e t o e v e n t s o f 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 a n d b e l o w t h a t d is c u s s io n i n v o l v i n g G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e b u t th e n a t 2 1 4 s a y s o n 1 J u n e 2 0 1 7 G e n e r a l P h a h la n e w a s r e l i e v e d o f h is d u ti e s a s a c ti n g N a ti o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r. Is th e r e n o m ix Page 9 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 u p o f d a t e s th e r e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Chair I think it should read the 1 J u l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n 2 1 4 ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I n f a c t w e w il l c e r t a i n l y c o r r e c t t h a t b e c a u s e w e h a v e r e c e iv e d a n a ff id a v i t fr o m G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e w h ic h in f o r m e d t h a t h e w a s r e l ie v e d o f h is d u ti e s fr o m t h e 1 J u n e 2 0 1 7 . S o 10 t h a t d a t e is in f a c t c o r r e c t . I t ju s t a p p e a r s to b e o u t o f s e q u e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I d o n o t k n o w b u t th e n i t m u s t b e t h a t t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts i s n o t p r o p e r th e n b e c a u s e y o u f ir s t y o u t a lk a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 a n d t h e n l a t e r y o u ta lk a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 J u n e . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir i f I m a y – I – m a y b e I c a n explain? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I r e c e iv e d th e e m a i l f r o m A d v o c a t e R o s s o u w o n th e 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: T h e tr a i li n g o r t h e a t t a c h e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n t o th e e m a i l d e a l t w i t h is s u e s o r d e a l t w i t h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e v io u s ly. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: E v e n ts t h a t h a p p e n e d b e f o r e h e was … Page 10 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: B e f o r e h e w a s d is m i s s e d o r r e l i e v e d o f h is d u ti e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h a t d a t e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: relieved of h is d u ti e s . Ye s B e fo r e t h e d a te t h a t h e w a s C h a ir. I did not r e c e iv e th e s e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s d u r in g t h e – a s i t h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A n d w e r e y o u – I t h i n k d o t r y a n d e n s u r e t h a t w e h a v e g o t t h e d a t e s c o r r e c t b e c a u s e – o r w h e t h e r it is ju s t a 10 q u e s t io n o f – o f 2 1 4 – m a y b e 2 1 4 n e e d i n g t o h a v e b e e n 2 1 3 . O b v io u s ly w h a t h a p p e n e d fir s t i t w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 J u n e . W h a t h a p p e n e d on the 14 June namely the receipt of the email happened later than what happened on the 1 June. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t i s u n d e r s t o o d th r o u g h y o u C h a ir t h a t t h e d a te o n w h ic h h e w a s r e li e v e d fr o m h is d u t ie s is t o b e c o n s i d e r e d i n th e c o n t e x t o f h is k n o w l e d g e o f t h e d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts a n d s o t h e c o m m u n i c a t i o n w h i c h is d a t e d t h e 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 w h il e I a c c e p t is o u t o f ti m e s e q u e n c e is th e p e r t i n e n t p a r t o f t h is witness’ evidence. 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o I a m – I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t a ll I a m s i m p l y s a y in g it c a u s e s c o n fu s i o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u fir s t d is c u s s w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 4 J u n e a n d t h e n l a t e r g o b a c k t o w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 J u n e . I f h e d a t e s a r e fi n e th e n it m e a n s i t is j u s t th e r e a r r a n g i n g o f t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t – o r t h e Page 11 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 a r r a n g e m e n ts i n t h e a ff id a v i t o f t h e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t w a s n o t w h a t i t s h o u l d b e . B u t i f t h e d a t e s a r e f in e I c a n l iv e w i t h i t – w e c a n g o o n . I t is n o t a p r o b l e m . It ju s t s e e m s a w k w a r d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : To t e ll a s t o r y g o u p t o 1 4 J u n e a n d t h e n g o b a c k to 1 June. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: 10 I f w e c o u l d t h e n tu r n to p a g e 4 3 – 4 4 0 w h ic h is A n n e x u r e K D R 4 9 . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h is d o c u m e n t a p p e a r s to b e a n e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e tr a il a n d th e f ir s t e m a i l a t th e t o p o f i t is f r o m A r n o R o s s o u w A J o f t h e N PA’s o ff ic e s e n t o n t h e 1 4 J u n e 2 0 1 7 1 6 : 2 6 t o C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e b e i n g y o u r s e l f c c P a u l J L o u w – s u b j e c t t i tl e w h ic h is a f o u r w o r d S t a te v e r s u s M d l u l i a n d o t h e r s a n d th e r e a p p e a r s t o b e o n e a tt a c h m e n t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 20 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: And then what we – what also a p p e a r s fr o m th e d o c u m e n t i s t h e i n tr o d u c t io n w h ic h r e a d s : “ D e a r C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e k in d l y ta k e n o t e o f t h e a tt a c h e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . We need to meet as a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y t o d is c u s s th e m a t t e r a n d s e t u p t h e m e e ti n g a s d ir e c te d b y t h e a c ti n g c o m m is s i o n e r. ” MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 12 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e a c t in g c o m m i s s io n e r a t t h a t ti m e w a s M r N h l e k o . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: N o C h a ir i t w a s G e n e r a l … I m e a n – s o r r y. L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l Phahlane. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o r r y – s o s o r r y. I f I c o u l d t h e n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 4 4 5 p l e a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h o s e t h a t e x c h a n g e o f e m a il s a n d l e tt e r s I a m 10 n o t s u r e t h a t t h e r e is m u c h p u r p o s e i n g o i n g to e a c h a n d e v e r y o n e o f them. Just reflect of this. I t m a y b e th a t w h a t i s i m p o r t a n t is t o s a y t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w e r e l e t te r s a n d e m a i ls t h a t w e r e e x c h a n g e d b e t w e e n s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d s o o r t h e s e p e o p l e b e t w e e n th a t t i m e a n d t h a t ti m e b u t t h e – t h e u l ti m a t e o u tc o m e is t h a t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e h a d a t a certain stage i n d ic a te d a w il li n g n e s s to have the d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d th e n s e e w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r th a t . S o i t m i g h t n o t b e n e c e s s a r y t o g o t h r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y e m a i l i f i t d o e s n o t ta k e th a t p o i n t a n y f u r t h e r. Th e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s b u t i n t h e e n d t h e d o c u m e n ts r e m a in e d n o t d e c l a s s i f ie d b u t P h a l h l a n e s e e m e d t o b e w i lli n g – th is is 20 t h e e m a i l h e s e n t a n d t h i s is w h a t h a p p e n e d p u r s u a n t t o t h a t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir. I s i t – t h e r e is t h e n M r – C o lo n e l R o e l o f s e a n i n t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h a tt a c h e s t h r e e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h e s s e n ti a l ly c a l l s u p o n L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e t o a s s i s t a n d h e a g r e e s to d o s o a t le a s t fr o m t h e 1 9 J a n u a r y 2017? Page 13 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d i t is f o ll o w u p – h e fo ll o w e d t h a t u p w it h t h e w r it t e n r e s p o n s e o n th e 1 7 M a y 2017. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: CHAIRPERSON: W h e r e h e a g r e e s to d o i t . A s I u n d e r s t a n d h is e m a il t h e e m a il i ts e l f w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a g r e e i n g t o d e c la s s i fy b u t h e w a s a g r e e in g t o t h e s e tt i n g u p o f a p r o c e s s w h ic h c o u l d l e a d t o d e c la s s i fic a ti o n , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: 10 T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. As I t e s ti fi e d e a r li e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: T h e r e is a p r o c e s s th a t n e e d s t o be set up. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: To g e t i t d e c la s s i f i e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o a t l e a s t h e w a s n o t o p p o s e d in p r i n c i p l e t o d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n i t j u s t d e p e n d e d o n t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s to b e p u t in place. MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: 20 T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h a t i s w h a t I w o u l d e x p e c t fr o m a N a ti o n a l C o m m is s io n e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: C h a ir t h e r e is a v e r s io n o f s o r ts th a t w e h a v e r e c e i v e d w i t h b y y o u r le a v e I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o p u t t h r o u g h to the witness. I t is a n a ffi d a v i t th a t w e h a v e r e c e i v e d fr o m G e n e r a l Phahlane. Page 14 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u c a n p u t i t t o h i m . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d w i t h y o u r le a v e i f I m a y d o s o ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S a v e t o c o n f ir m i n t h e a ff id a v i t i ts e l f t h a t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e i n fo r m s t h a t h e w a s a p p o i n t e d t o th e p o s i t io n o f a c ti n g N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o l ic e f o ll o w i n g th e s u s p e n s i o n o f G e n e r a l R i a h P h i y e g a o n th e 1 4 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 . He has since the 1 J u n e 2 0 1 7 b e e n a t h o m e o n f u l l r e m u n e r a t io n p e n d in g th e p r o c e s s e s o f in v e s t i g a t io n s a g a in s t h i m . 10 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W e ll d o e s i t d is p u te a n y o f t h e th i n g s t h a t M r R o e lo fs e h a s t a lk e d a b o u t t h a t r e l a t e to h i m ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C o lo n e l R o e l o f s e h e in f o r m s t h a t h e t a k e s n o i s s u e w i th t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t y o u m a k e b u t h e h o w e v e r w i s h e s t o p o i n t o u t t h a t h e w a s n o t c o n t a c t e d b y a n y p e r s o n t o a s s is t i n t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts a ft e r h e r e c e i v e d t h e r e s p o n s e fr o m A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s r e g a r d i n g h is r e q u e s t . Do you have any c o m m e n t o r k n o w le d g e t o th a t ? MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: 20 C h a ir I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n – o n w h a t G e n e r a l P h iy e g a – G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e h a s s e e n o r n o t b u t I d o h a v e a l e t te r f r o m A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m ’s o ffic e t h a t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e o n t h e 2 4 M a y 2 0 1 7 w h e r e in A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 s ta t e s t h e f o l lo w in g : “ T h e Pr o s e c u t o r in t h e m a t t e r w i ll b e i n fo r m e d o f y o u r d e c is io n a n d r e q u e s t e d t o l i a is e Page 15 of 61 with the 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 r e l e v a n t o ff ic i a ls a s s u g g e s te d . ” S o th e r e w a s a r e fe r r a l b a c k to t h e o ffi c e o f th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. CHAIRPERSON: hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And then to ask you your comment t o t h e f o l l o w i n g s t a te m e n t a n d I r e a d : H e s a y s : “ I a m a a m a z e d a t M r R o e l o fs e a s a s e n i o r p o li c e o ffic i a l d i d n o t r e g is t e r a n y c r i m in a l c a s e a g a in s t m e a t t h e ti m e i t is a ll e g e d I fr u s t r a t e d a n d h a m p e r e d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d b y d o i n g s o o b s t r u c t e d t h e c o u r s e o f ju s t ic e a n d d e f e a t e d t h e e n d s o f ju s t ic e . ” 10 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir I … D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h a t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: that General Phahlane Ye s I d o . fr u s tr a t e d the I have never alleged process. I have the d o c u m e n t a ti o n h e r e a n d a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d h e w a s th e o n e t h a t a s s is t e d m e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e l i f e a ll e g e d th a t h e i s – th a t h e is fr u s tr a ti n g t h e p r o c e s s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t i s t o b e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t in t h e c o n te x t o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u r a ll e g a t io n s w e r e to – w e r e a d d r e s s e d t o 20 s e n i o r p o li c e o ffi c i a ls . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A r e y o u c h a n g i n g y o u r p o s it i o n n o w ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: No I am not – no I am not c h a n g in g m y p o s i ti o n in t e r m s o f t h a t . I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h a t w h e n th e w r i t t e n r e s p o n s e s I h a v e w o u l d i n d ic a t e th a t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e is Page 16 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 a s s is ti n g m e . I d o n o t – h e – I t h in k w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o – w h a t I a m r e fe r r i n g t o w h e n I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t . T h e f ir s t l e tt e r w a s s e n t i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 7 a n d h is r e s p o n s e w a s o n ly i n M a y. S o i n t h a t e s s e n c e – in t h a t s e n s e i t w o u l d s e e m t h a t t h e r e w a s n o u r g e n c y a n d h e w a s – h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o r e s p o n d w i th i n t h e – w i t h i n a s p e c i fi c t i m e fr a m e . I a ls o d o n o t k n o w h o w l o n g b e f o r e th is A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms h a s s p o k e n t o h i m i n t h a t p r o c e s s . S o h e d i d n o t – h e d id n o t d o a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h is u n ti l th e r e w a s a le t t e r t o a s k h i m t o d o i t . S o b a s e d o n t h a t h e d id n o t d o a n y t h i n g u p u n ti l th a t p o in t w h e n h e w a s i n – q u e s ti o n e d i n 10 w r i t in g o r a s k e d in w r it i n g t o a s s i s t. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: is t o b e c o n s i d e r e d . A n d s o in t h a t c o n te x t y o u r e v id e n c e W h e n y o u s a y th a t t h e r e w e r e a t te m p t s m a d e t o fr u s tr a te a n d h a m p e r in v e s ti g a t io n s b y s e n i o r o ffi c i a l s w i th i n S A P S i s G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e c o n s i d e r e d to b e o n e o f t h e m ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I n t h a t e s s e n c e i t w il l f a l l i n to t h a t c o n t e x t y e s C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O k a y. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: O r i n t h a t s e n s e . I t w il l f a ll i n to that context. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: IPID the Independent P o l ic e W e r e t h e r e a n y r e q u e s ts m a d e b y I n v e s ti g a t iv e Directorate for the d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t s ? MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: made by them. Ye s C h a i r t h e r e w e r e r e q u e s ts I n A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 I w a s a s k e d t o g o a n d a s s is t I P I D b y G e n e r a l M a t h a k a t h a fr o m t h e D P C I a n d – a n d p a r t o f t h a t s i tu a ti o n w a s Page 17 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 t h a t a s p a r t o f th e j o i n t t a s k te a m t h a t I P I D w ill a ls o f r o m t h e ir p e r s p e c t iv e tr y to g e t t h e d o c u m e n ts n e e d e d fo r th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n d e c l a s s i fi e d . I f w e c a n – i f I c a n p u t th i s i n t o c o n te x t? A t th e ti m e b e f o r e I – b e f o r e I g o t t h e r e I P I D w a s d o i n g i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a ls o r e g a r d in g to t h e a c ti o n s o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d c e r t a in a l le g a ti o n s o r a l le g e d c r i m i n a l i ty. A n d I t h i n k t h a t is th e r e a s o n w h y I w a s a s k e d t o g o – t o g o a n d a s s is t t h e m a s w e l l b e c a u s e th e y s a t w i th e x a c t ly t h e s a m e p r o b le m g e t ti n g t h e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d f o r c o u r t p u r p o s e s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 4 5 3 w h ic h fo r m s p a r t o f A n n e x u r e 5 0 p l e a s e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y 4 5 6 ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 4 5 3 C h a ir. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 45? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 3. C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 . Ye s c o n t in u e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h is is a c o r r e s p o n d e n c e – a l e t te r r a th e r a d d r e s s e d t o L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l M o t h i b a w h o w a s th e a c ti n g N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r a t th e ti m e a n d i t i s s i g n e d o n p a g e 4 6 0 b y Mr R 20 J M c B r i d e d a t e d th e 1 8 A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. It is t i tl e d “A request for d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n t s a n d t h e p a r tic u la r i ty o f t h e C A S n u m b e r a n d th e l ik e f o ll o w s . ” MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 18 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th i s is a c o m p r e h e n s iv e o r i t a p p e a r s a t l e a s t to b e q u i te a c o m p r e h e n s iv e d o c u m e n t o n w h a t in f o r m a ti o n o r d o c u m e n ts w e r e r e q u ir e d f o r c l a s s i – d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: If we could turn to page 4-6-0. Is it c o r r e c t t h a t t h is le t t e r c o n c l u d e s t h a t? “It would be appreciated …” N o t is i t c o r r e c t b u t t h e - t h e le t t e r r a th e r c o n c l u d e s t h a t: “ I t w o u l d b e a p p r e c i a t e d i f th e a b o v e d o c u m e n t s 10 c a n b e u r g e n t ly d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d h a n d e d o v e r to I P I D f o r in v e s ti g a t io n i n te r ms o f S e c ti o n 2 9 ( 2 ) ( c ) a n d 2 4 ( 3 ) in t e r m s o f t h e I P I D Ac t . ” S o th e - t h e r e w a s a n u r g e n c y t o th is r e q u e s t ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is th is t h e s a m e r e q u e s t t h a t th e n e s c a l a t e d t o y o u r s e l f fo r a t te n ti o n a n d r e s p o n s e ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o M r R o e lo fs e t h e - t h e b a t tl e t o g e t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i f ie d w a s q u i t e a lo n g o n e ? 20 M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d it i s s ti ll a b a tt l e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is s ti ll a l o n g o n e ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ti n g i n 2 0 1 2 y o u s a i d ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 2012. Yo u w r o t e - y o u p r e p a r e d c o m p r e h e n s iv e Page 19 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 d o c u m e n ts e x p l a i n i n g e v e r y th i n g t h a t y o u c o u l d to t r y a n d g e t th e p o li c e a n d C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t o a c c e p t t h a t t h e - y o u n e e d e d th e s e d o c u m e n ts f o r l e g i ti m a t e p u r p o s e s . T h e N PA a ls o I t h i n k w e s a w y e s t e r d a y i f I a m n o t mi s ta k e n . Ye s Mr N x a s a n a ’s v e r y c o m p r e h e n s i v e d o c u m e n t . I t h in k M s S e p t e m b e r s a i d i t w a s e ig h t p a g e s i f I a m n o t mi s ta k e n b u t c o m p r e h e n s iv e l e t te r o r m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s s e n t m o ti v a t in g a n d d e a li n g w it h lo ts of issues and saying p le a s e d e c l a s s i fy these d o c u m e n ts . N o t h i n g h a p p e n s . I P I D h e r e s e n d s M r M c Br i d e a c o m p r e h e n s iv e d o c u m e n t 10 d e a li n g w i th a ll t h e s e i s s u e s a s k in g p l e a s e l e t u s d e c l a s s i fy t h e s e d o c u m e n ts a n d n o t h in g h a p p e n s . M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t d e s c r ib e s w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s tr u e C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M r R o e lo fs e th e l e tt e r fr o m M r Mc B r i d e w a s s e n t t o G e n e r a l M o th i b a a n d i t is c o r r e c t t h a t i t w a s sent to him … CHAIRPERSON: 20 I a m s o r r y M s S e p t e m b e r. Just to complete what I w a s s a y in g M r R o e l o fs e a n d t h r o u g h o u t t h e s e y e a r s a n d th r o u g h o u t these correspondence as I understand your evidence and as I u n d e r s t a n d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e x c h a n g e d th e r e d o e s n o t a p p e a r t h a t it d o e s n o t a p p e a r t h a t a n y b o d y e v e r s a i d h e r e is a r e a s o n w h y w e a r e s a y in g n o to t h e d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f t h e s e d o c u m e n ts o r s o m e ti m e s t h e y w e r e - m a y b e t h e y w e r e n o t e v e n s a y i n g n o b u t th e f a c t is t h e y w e r e Page 20 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 n o t s a y i n g y e s . Is th a t r i g h t? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. We have n o t h a d t h a t - w e h a v e n o t h a d t h a t e n g a g e m e n t . I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d a n y r e a s o n s a s to w h y i t s h o u l d n o t b e d e c la s s i f ie d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t i s a q u e s ti o n o f - i t is a q u e s t io n of being ignored. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a v e q u o t e d to t h e m t h e p r o v i s i o n th a t s a y s c la s s if ic a ti o n 10 must not be used to hide m a l a d m i n i s tr a t io n and c o r r u p ti o n a n d n o b o d y h a s c o m e b a c k to y o u a n d s a i d n o , n o , n o . H e r e is a le g it i m a t e r e a s o n w h y w e s a y n o t o t h e d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n . I t is j u s t n o t h a p p e n in g ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir i t - i t d i d n o t h a p p e n a n d a s f a r a s I - I a ls o d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s - w h a t w a s t h e - t h e m o t iv a ti o n f o r n o t d e c l a s s i fy in g a c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s r e q u e s te d b y t h e Commission … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: n o t d e c l a s s if i e d . 20 To b e d e c la s s if i e d t h a t w a s a ls o I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a r e a s o n a d v a n c e d fo r that. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: sent to General Mothiba in M r R o e lo fs e th e I P I D r e q u e s t w a s h is p o s i ti o n as Acting Commissioner? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 21 of 61 N a ti o n a l 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d is i t - is i t c o r r e c t t h a t h e w a s a p p o i n t e d t o t h a t p o s it i o n o n o r a b o u t 2 J u n e 2 0 1 7 ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t c e r t a i n l y b a s e d o n t h e - t h e l e t te r t h a t w e h a v e - th a t I h a v e d ir e c t e d y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o h e w a s a w a r e a t le a s t o f t h e r e q u e s t t h r o u g h I P I D a p p r o x i m a t e ly J u ly 2 0 - s o r r y A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 o r o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f i t? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: There was however a General Jacobs 10 w h o w a s s u p p o r ti v e o f t h e p r o c e s s . Is t h a t r i g h t? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Can I …? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: It … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 4 - 4 - 9 p l e a s e ? A t t h e b o t t o m o f th e p a g e a p p e a r s a s p a r t o f th is e m a il tr a il i s a n e m a il f r o m M a j o r - G e n e r a l J a c o b s d a t e d 2 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 a t 0 9 : 0 8 a m . S e n t to t h e D iv is io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f L e g a l a n d P o lic y S e r v ic e s a n d o th e r s w i t h th e s u b j e c t - i n c l u d i n g c o p y i n g o t h e r r e c i p i e n ts a s w e ll w i t h the 20 subject ti t le re “Request for D e c la s s if ic a ti o n of C l a s s i fi e d Documents”. O n c e a g a i n t h e C A S n u m b e r d e t a ils . I f y o u t u r n t h e p a g e to page 4-5-0 it reads: “ I a m in fa v o u r o f d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t s and so far back in G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s ti m e - ( c o u g h in g ) s o s o r r y - a n d s o fa r - a n d s o f a r b a c k in Page 22 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s t i m e t h e i s s u e h a d b e e n c l e a r e d w i t h t h e O ff ic e o f t h e I G . I p r o p o s e t h a t w e f o l lo w u p w i t h N PA o n e x is t in g p r o c e s s a n d a s k p e r s o n i n possession of docket - of docket to produce original d o c u m e n ts f o r d e c la s s i f ic a ti o n . T h e m a tt e r h a s b e e n d r a w n o u t to o l o n g a n d n e e d s to c o m e t o fi n a l it y. I d ir e c t t h i s to N PA’s O ff ic e a s w e l l s o t h a t w e c a n m o v e w i t h s p e e d o n th is m a t t e r. Kind r e g a r d s , P h il li p J a c o b s . ” 10 Who was General Jacobs? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: G e n e r a l J a c o b s a t th e t i m e w a s - C h a ir I m u s t j u s t m a k e - h e w a s - h e w a s - h e f o r m e d p a r t o f th e le g a l s e r v ic e - n a t io n a l - N a t io n a l O ff ic e o f L e g a l S e r v ic e s w i t h i n t h e S o u th A fr ic a n P o lic e S e r v ic e . H e - t h e c o n t e x t o f t h i s e m a il a n d h i s r e s p o n s e was in respect of the request sent by Mr McBride for the d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . T h e y w e r e a s k e d - L e g a l S e r v ic e s i n - in H e a d O ffi c e w e r e a s k e d to - t o p r o v i d e t h e - G e n e r a l M o t h i b a w it h a l e g a l o p in i o n a n d I a m i n f o r m e d t h a t h e w a s p r o v i d e d w i t h a le g a l o p i n i o n w i t h t h e a d v ic e 20 t o d e c la s s if y th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . N o t o n c e b u t t w i c e a n d n o r e a c ti o n c a m e fr o m G e n e r a l M o t h i b a i n r e s p e c t o f t h is a d v ic e t h a t w a s g iv e n t o h i m b y h is o w n l e g a l s e r v ic e s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o i s i t to b e u n d e r s t o o d th a t n o p r o g r e s s a r o s e f o l lo w i n g th e e m a i l fr o m G e n e r a l J a c o b s ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: T h a t is - t h a t i s tr u e - t h a t is s o Page 23 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And progress in s o f a r as the a new d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t s … MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is… A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is c o n c e r n e d ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: On 22 November 2017 N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r w a s a p p o i n te d ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o - w h o is th e i n d i v i d u a l? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: It was General Sithole And was the - K h e h l a Si t h o l e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: request for d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n b r o u g h t t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l S it h o l e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: a tt e n ti o n . Ye s C h a ir. I t w a s b r o u g h t to h is It w a s a ls o - I t h i n k a c o p y - I d o n o t h a v e t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t h e r e b u t I t h i n k i t w a s a - a s i m il a r d o c u m e n t o r m a y b e e v e n t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t a d d r e s s e d t o G e n e r a l M o t h i b a w a s a ls o a d d r e s s e d t o G e n e r a l S i th o l e . 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And at paragraph 2-1-9 on page 63 of y o u r a ffi d a v it . Yo u ta lk a b o u t t h i s - th is is s u e o f d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n b e i n g r a i s e d i n P a r li a m e n t. C a n y o u p l e a s e e l a b o r a t e o n t h a t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Chair IPID was asked to appear b e f o r e S C O PA . I t i s e i t h e r l a t e 2 0 1 7 o r e a r l y 2 0 1 8 . I a t t e n d e d w i th w i t h t h e I P I D t h e S C O PA h e a r i n g . I t h i n k i t w a s t w o o r t h r e e a n d i n o n e Page 24 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 o f t h o s e h e a r i n g s a n d I s u s p e c t it w a s th e fir s t o n e t h i s w h o l e q u e s ti o n r e g a r d in g t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n w a s r a i s e d b u t n o t o n ly t h e o n e s t h a t I n e e d e d b u t a ls o t h e o n e s th a t th e y w e r e s tr u g g l i n g t o g e t d e c l a s s i fi e d i n t e r m s o f t h e ir o w n in v e s ti g a ti o n s . D u r i n g t h o s e h e a r i n g s I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e m e m b e r s o f S C O PA w a s r e a ll y i n t e r e s te d t o a s s is t a n d t h e r e w e r e c o m m e n t s m a d e t o th e e ff e c t t h a t - a n d G e n e r a l S i t h o l e m a d e c e r t a i n c o m m e n ts t o t h e e ff e c t th a t h e w ill - h e w i ll a p p ly h i s m i n d a n d h e w i ll a s s is t a n d t h e y - a n d I t h i n k th e h e a r in g g a v e h i m a b o u t t w o w e e k s . A b o u t tw o o r th r e e h e a r i n g s a ft e r th a t I g o t th e - I h a v e g o t 10 t h e s e n s e th a t t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e w i t h in S C O PA b e c a u s e th e y s a i d i t it d i d n o t f a l l s tr i c t ly w i t h i n t h e ir m a n d a t e . I t f a lls w i t h i n t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e I n te ll ig e n c e C o m m i t t e e a n d t h a t is - t h a t is w h e r e i t e n d e d . S o t h a t a ls o d i d n o t a s s is t i n g e t ti n g t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n d e c l a s s i f ie d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l Mr R o e l o f s e I w i ll h e a r w h a t s o m e o f th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d to a p p ly t h e i r m in d t o t h is r e q u e s t h a v e t o s a y b u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u a r e p a r t o f th e l a w e n fo r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s i n t h e c o u n tr y a n d y o u a r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e a l e g i t i m a te is s u e c o n c e r n i n g a ll e g a t i o n s o f c o r r u p t io n a n d fr a u d w it h in t h e p o l ic e a n d y o u 20 are not a s s is t e d to obtain documents that you need for th a t in v e s t i g a t io n fo r o v e r e i g h t y e a r s is j u s t a s t o n is h i n g . I t i s ju s t a s to n i s h i n g . S o m e b o d y g a v e e v id e n c e b e f o r e m e h e r e s o m e m o n th s b a c k a n d m a d e s t a te m e n ts th a t m a y h a v e s e e m e d s h o c k i n g a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n s w i t h i n t h e p o l ic e in te r m s o f w r o n g d o in g a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h o i t w a s b u t I t h i n k i t w a s s o m e b o d y fr o m Page 25 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 w i t h i n a n d th is b a t tl e t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n o n f o r s o m a n y y e a r s o n e w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t t h a t t h e p o li c e w o u ld b e v e r y s e n s it iv e w h e n th e r e a r e in v e s ti g a t io n s a g a in s t s o m e o f t h e ir o w n a n d w o u ld w a n t t o b e s e e n t o b e m o r e t r a n s p a r e n t a n d w o u ld n o t w a n t t o d o a n y th in g t h a t m i g h t lo o k l ik e t h e y w a n t t o p r o t e c t o n e a n o t h e r o r t h a t m a y b e s e e n t o b e c o v e r in g u p c o r r u p ti o n . I w i ll h e a r w h a t t h e y h a v e to s a y b u t it is v e r y, v e r y c o n c e r n i n g t o m e b e c a u s e o v e r s u c h a l o n g p e r io d a n y th in g c o u l d happen. 10 W i t n e s s c o u ld d i e . Then you could have a situation where t h e r e is n e v e r p r o s e c u t io n o r th e r e is n o s u c c e s s f u l p r o s e c u ti o n b e c a u s e w i tn e s s e s h a v e d i s a p p e a r e d o r d ie d t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e p r o p e r p r o s e c u ti o n o f t h o s e c a s e s a n d j u s t th i n k a ls o t h a t it m u s t b e a m o s t d e m o r a lis i n g t h i n g t o a n y p e r s o n w i t h i n th e la w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s w h o is t r y i n g to d o h is o r h e r j o b p r o p e r l y b u t m e e ti n g w i t h t h e k i n d o f fr u s tr a t i o n th a t i t l o o k s li k e y o u m e t w i th b u t w e w ill - w e w il l h e a r a n d h e a r w h a t e v e r y b o d y h a s t o s a y. Maybe th e y w i ll throw li g h t fr o m d i ff e r e n t - g iv e us p e r s p e c t iv e s t h a t w e d o n o t s e e a t t h e m o m e n t b u t i t i s r e a ll y v e r y, v e r y c o n c e r n i n g b u t I a ls o w a n te d t o a s k I s e e m t o h a v e r e a d s o m e t i m e b a c k 20 a b o u t a c o u r t a p p li c a t io n t o c h a l le n g e th e f a i lu r e t o d e c l a s s i fy d o c u m e n ts b y t h e p o l ic e i n r e g a r d t o s o m e m a t t e r. Wa s i t n o t th is matter? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir i t - it r e l a t e s t o t h i s m a t t e r b u t i t w a s m o r e - i t - i t is a n a p p li c a t io n b r o u g h t b y I P I D - b y I P I D M r Mc B r i d e a n d i t r e l a te d t o C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e b u t m o r e - b u t m o r e Page 26 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 r e c e n t a b u s e o f t h e fu n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: And in terms of I n t e lli g e n c e d i d n o t w a n t t o r e le a s e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s . that Crime S o th a t - th a t h a s b e e n t a k e n - t h a t s p e c i fic m a t t e r h a s b e e n ta k e n t o c o u r t t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : To f o r c e o r t o m a k e it - fo r t h e r e to b e a d e c is io n i n t e r m s o f h o w to d e a l w i th t h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i t d o e s n o t i n c l u d e e v e r y t h in g t h a t y o u w e r e 10 t a lk in g a b o u t . I t r e l a te s t o m o r e r e c e n t e v e n t s ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I t - it r e l a t e s t o m o r e r e c e n t e v e n t s . Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t h o w f a r i s t h a t? D o y o u k n o w ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: moment. C h a ir I a m - I a m n o t s u r e a t th e I k n o w th a t t h e y - a ff i d a v i ts - fu r t h e r a ff id a v i ts w e r e fil e d a b o u t a m o n t h a g o b u t I a m n o t - I a m n o t u p t o s p e e d a s to e x a c t ly how far they are. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . D o y o u k n o w - d o y o u h a v e a n y i n fo r m a ti o n a b o u t t h a t? M s S e p t e m b e r ? 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e w i ll c e r t a i n - w e w i ll c e r t a i n … CHAIRPERSON: Do you know? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: We do not … CHAIRPERSON: Do you …? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W e d o n o t h a v e a n y i n fo r m a ti o n a t t h is s t a g e . Page 27 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e o b t a i n … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e w i ll c e r t a i n l y l o o k i n to it . CHAIRPERSON: A ffi d a v it s f il e d i n th a t m a t t e r. Look at those a ffi d a v i ts . L e t m e k n o w. I w a n t t o s e e t h e m a s w e l l. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l d o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I m a y p r o c e e d . S o i t is c o r r e c t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i n th e c o n t e x t o f e v e r y t h i n g w e n o w t u r n t o p a g e 6 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t 10 on the 23rd …? CHAIRPERSON: J u s t to f i n a li s e t h e p o in t r e l a ti n g t o G e n e r a l S i t h o l e . S o t h e t h r u s t o f y o u r e v id e n c e i n r e la t io n to h i m is t h a t a f t e r h e h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r t h is is s u e o f t h e r e q u e s t f o r d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n w a s b r o u g h t t o h is a t t e n t io n . He became aware of it fr o m w h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d . H e s e e m e d t o h a v e u n d e r ta k e n to a p p ly h i s m i n d t o i t b u t t h e f a c t o f th e m a t t e r is u p t o n o w th e r e h a s b e e n n o d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: T h a t is s o C h a ir. In p a r a g r a p h 2 2 0 o f m y a ffi d a v i t I a ls o r e f e r t o B r i g a d i e r Va n G r a a n w h o p r e p a r e d y e t 20 a g a in a n o t h e r m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h w a s t h e n g iv e n t o G e n e r a l S i t h o le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: So he was aware. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I - I w o n d e r w h e t h e r w h e n t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o l ic e o r d i ffe r e n t N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r s o f P o l ic e f a il t o a s s is t o r w h e n y o u a r e u n h a p p y w i t h t h e fa c t th a t th e N a t i o n a l Page 28 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o l ic e i s n o t a s s is ti n g i n a p a r tic u la r m a t te r w h e t h e r you should not - there should not have been an approach to the M i n is t e r o r d i ff e r e n t M in is t e r s . Is t h a t s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s n o t t h o u g h t o r is t h a t s o m e t h in g t h a t th is k i n d o f t h i n g w o u l d n o t g o t o t h e M i n is t e r ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I h a v e n o t t h o u g h t o f t h a t . I t h o u g h t th a t I w o u ld b e a b l e t o - t o d e a l w it h i t w i th i n t h e s tr u c t u r e s o f the … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o u t h A fr i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A s - o r - o r fo r t h a t m a t te r w i t h i n IPID … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O r i n P a r li a m e n t b u t I d i d n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I did not see the point. So - but I did not even think of that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll it m i g h t - i t m i g h t b e - i t m i g h t b e o n e o f 20 t h e a v e n u e s o p e n b u t t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i ll b e a p p l y i n g it s m i n d a s w e l l b e c a u s e t h e r e h a v e b e e n d i ff e r e n t N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r s o r Ac t i n g N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r s a n d it w o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t i f th e y s a y w e w i ll n o t d e c l a s s i fy. H e r e a r e th e r e a s o n s a n d t h e n y o u a p p ly y o u r m i n d t o th e r e a s o n s a n d y o u a g r e e o r d is a g r e e . S o - o k a y, a lr i g h t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M r R o e l o fs e is i t c o r r e c t t h a t o n Page 29 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 2 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s r e li e v e d o f h is d u t ie s b y M i n is t e r N h l e k o a n d G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a w a s t h e n a p p o i n te d t o a c t i n h is place on or about that same date? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t w a s o n e o f t h e fir s t t h in g s t h a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a d i d a s fa r a s y o u a r e a w a r e a n d i n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir, he - he v is i te d two p r o v i n c e s - K w a Z u l u - N a ta l a s w e ll a s th e W e s t e r n C a p e P r o v i n c e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h ic h o n e h e v is it e d fi r s t . C a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tly 10 t h a t s e q u e n c e a n d I k n o w i t w a s e i t h e r v e r y la t e i n 2 0 1 4 o r v e r y e a r l y i n 2 0 1 5 a n d h e c a l le d a m e e t in g . H e d i d n o t s e e th e p r o v i n c i a l - t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m a n d e r a s f a r a s I k n o w. s p e c i f ic a l ly w i t h th e - w i t h th e A C T T. H e c a ll e d t h e m e e ti n g T h e A n t i- C o r r u p t io n Ta s k Te a m a n d h e m e t w i t h u s o n th a t s p e c i fi c d a y. D u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a a d d r e s s e d u s a n d w h a t w a s c o n c e r ti n g to m e d u r i n g t h e - d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g is t h a t h e in f o r m e d th e m e e ti n g - a n d t h a t in c l u d e s n o w j u n io r o ff ic e r s a s w e ll - h e in - h e i n fo r m e d t h e m t h a t h e w o u ld - th a t h e a t t h e m e e ti n g - t h e e ffe c t t h a t i f h e w a n t e d t o c h a ll e n g e a n y o n e i f th e y w a n t to c h a l l e n g e h is 20 d e c is i o n s h e w o u l d s u s p e n d th e m a n d t h e y w o u l d - a n d t h e y w a n t e d a n d i f th e y w a n te d t o ta k e h i m o n a n d t h a t is n o w t o c o u r t h e w o u l d g e t h is S C t o fi g h t t h e ir S C . I n o t h e r w o r d s t h a t o ff ic ia ls u n t il t h a t p e r s o n r u n s o u t o f funds. He went further to say that even if that person was successful in c h a ll e n g i n g h is d e c i s i o n h e w o u ld i n a n y e v e n t tr a n s f e r t h e p e r s o n Page 30 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 out of the DPCI. Now to me that was - I - I was taken aback by that by that comment. I m e a n t h a t i s t h e f ir s t t i m e t h a t - t h a t h e a s th e A c ti n g H e a d o f t h e D P C I c a m e to s p e a k to a n y o n e a n d e s p e c ia lly in t h e W e s t e r n C a p e a n d t h a t is w h a t h e s a i d . I d i d n o t k n o w w h y h e w a n t e d t o s a y t h a t. I d id n o t k n o w w h a t p r o m p t e d i t b u t w h a t h e d i d is i t c r e a t e d t h a t c li m a t e - c l i m a t e w i t h i n t h e D P C I t h a t y o u w i ll d o w h a t I s a y o r y o u a r e g o i n g t o g e t - y o u w i ll b e t r a n s f e r r e d o r - o r I w il l s u s p e n d y o u a n d th e q u e s t io n a b o u t th e S C h is c o u n s e l. 10 H e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o s t a te fu n d s . H e w i ll a p p o i n t c o u n s e l o n s t a te f u n d s t o fi g h t y o u w i th y o u r p e n s io n w i t h y o u r m o n e y. I t w a s - I j u s t d i d n o t - i t d i d n o t g o d o w n w e ll a n d I d o n o t know if he understands the seriousness of what he had said at the time. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . S o b a s ic a ll y h e w a s th r e a te n in g th a t i f I m a k e a n y d e c is i o n a n d y o u t r y a n d c h a ll e n g e it y o u m u s t k n o w th a t i t is g o i n g t o b e a s e r io u s b a tt l e a n d e ff e c t iv e ly I w i ll b e u s i n g s t a t e f u n d s to fi g h t y o u a n d y o u w il l b e u s i n g y o u r o w n f u n d s a n d y o u h a v e n o chance? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. He is b a s ic a lly s a y i n g I w i ll - fi n a n c i a l ly I w il l r u i n y o u . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: If I m ay proceed. C h a ir, m a y I proceed? C H A I R P E R S O N : ( N o a u d ib l e r e p l y ) . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C o l o n e l - M r R o e l o fs e d i d y o u k n o w G e n e r a l N t le m e z a fr o m a n y p a s t e x p e r i e n c e ? Page 31 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir G e n e r a l N t le m e z a i n 2 0 11 f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e . I do. I have met I did know who he was b e f o r e th a t a n d t h e m e e t in g I - t h e m e e ti n g I h a d o r d u r in g t h e t i m e I m e t h i m i t r e l a t e d t o a r e p o r t t h a t w a s h a n d e d u p d u r i n g th e b a i l a p p lic a ti o n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i t o th e - in t h e B o k s b u r g H i g h C o u r t . T h i s r e p o r t s p e a k - in t h i s r e p o r t h e - h e w a s a p p o i n te d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i t o in v e s t i g a t e t h e s o c a ll e d p l o t a g a i n s t h i m a n d th e n t h a t r e p o r t w a s th u s p r o v i d e d a t - a t t h e b a il h e a r in g . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h th is - t h e r e p o r t 10 in p a r ti c u l a r. I o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n m o r e s p e c i f ic i n m y q u e s t i o n . B e f o r e y o u h a d th is f ir s t m e e ti n g w i t h G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w h e r e h e a tt e n d e d C a p e To w n a n d m a d e c l e a r h o w h e in t e n d e d t o d e a l w i t h t h e d e p a r t m e n t d id y o u m e e t h i m b e f o r e t h a t t i m e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s . As I s a i d i n 2 0 11 d u r i n g - I h a d - I in t e r v ie w e d h i m r e g a r d i n g a r e p o r t t h a t w a s h a n d e d u p i n t h e b a il a p p l ic a ti o n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h i c h h e - w h ic h h e a u t h o r e d o n G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s b e h a l f a f te r r e q u e s t in g - a f t e r b e i n g r e q u e s t e d t o d o so. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And if we can then go to page 65 you 20 t a lk s p e c i fic a lly t o th e r e p o r t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . Is t h a t r ig h t? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: How did it come about th a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w a s c a l l e d u p o n to p r e p a r e t h i s r e p o r t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir a t t h e ti m e - I ju s t w a n t t o Page 32 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 g e t to t h a t p o in t . General - there was a - there was a newspaper a r ti c l e p u b l is h e d . I t h in k i t w a s i n T h e S o w e t a n i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n i n w h ic h G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a s b e e n li n k e d to a - a n e v e n t i n 1 9 9 9 . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is t h a t t h e Vo s l o o r u s m a t te r t h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y g iv e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s t h e Vo s l o o r u s m a t t e r th a t I g a v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t . T h a t a r ti c l e r e s u lt e d in t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t - t h a t w a s s e n t t o G e n e r a l L a l la f o r f u r th e r a t te n ti o n . G e n e r a l L a ll a in f o r m e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h e n i t w a s g i v e n t o G e n e r a l L e b e y a fo r h i m to 10 in v e s t i g a t e b a s e d o n th e - o n t h e m e d ia r e p o r t . D u r i n g th a t p e r i o d G e n e r a l D r a m a t - a g G e n e r a l L e b e y a s p o k e t o t h e M g w e b i fa m i ly a n d d u r in g t h e p r e l i m in a r y - p r e li m i n a r y in v e s t i g a t io n General Lebeya be - became aware of in v e s t i g a t io n th a t i s b e e n d o n e b y G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a . a p a r a l le l H e in f o r m e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t - G e n e r a l L e b e y a i n fo r m e d h i m t h a t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w o u ld be c o n ti n u i n g with the i n v e s t i g a t io n as he thought that G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w a s a ls o i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e m u r d e r o f R a m o g i b e . H e d id n o t k n o w t h e - t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t - t h a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a h a d t o d o . 20 General Lebeya g a v e t h e d e t a i ls o f - o f a w i t n e s s f r o m t h e R a m o g i b e f a m i ly t o G e n e r a l N t le m e z a u n d e r th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w o u ld c o n ti n u e th e m u r d e r in v e s ti g a t io n . A s I s a i d u n d e r - u n d e r - a t th a t ti m e h e d i d n o t k n o w t h a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w a s a c t u a l ly i n v e s ti g a ti n g someone else. G e n e r a l M d l u l i in s t r u c t e d G e n e r a l N t le m e z a in - o n th e 1 s t - Page 33 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 2 1 J u ly 2 0 0 9 t h r o u g h h i s P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n t o i n v e s ti g a te i n r e g u la r c o n d u c t b y m e m b e r s o f S A P S s ta t io n e d a t C I f o r i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e m u r d e r o f R a m o g i b e - M r R a m o g i b e a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s a ll e g e d in v o lv e m e n t . Fr o m m y i n v e s ti g a ti o n G e n e r a l M d l u l i s u s p e c t e d th a t C I m e m b e r s w h o w e r e i n v e s t i g a t in g - i n v e s t ig a ti n g h i m o f - o f tr y in g t o oust him as 11 A u g u s t 2 0 0 9 th e D iv is i o n a l Commissioner G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a r e c e iv e d of CI a and then b r i e f in g on fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i r e g a r d i n g th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n . 10 G e n e r a l N t le m e z a f in a l is e d h is r e p o r t o n 1 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 0 . G e n e r a l L e b e y a la t e r o b t a i n e d a c o p y o f t h e N tl e m e z a r e p o r t fr o m G e n e r a l - f r o m G e n e r a l M d lu li . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: C h a ir a c o p y o f th a t r e p o r t a p p e a r s a s A n n e x u r e 5 1 a n d it s t a r ts o n p a g e 4 6 2 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: To j u s t s u m m a r i s e t h e v e r y k e y p o i n t s o f G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ’s r e p o r t w h ic h y o u f o u n d o f k e y i m p o r t a n c e I’ d l ik e t o ta k e y o u t o th e b o t t o m o f p a g e 6 5 a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 5 . 3 . 4 c a n y o u p le a s e r e a d t h e fi r s t o n e i n to t h e r e c o r d ? 20 M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : “ I t w a s c le a r fr o m h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t is n o w, G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a , t h a t a p l o t e x is te d to p r e v e n t G e n e r a l M d l u li fr o m b e in g a p p o i n t e d a s th e C I D iv is io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a a ls o a c c u s e d Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r S K h u m a l o w h o is n o w d e c e a s e d o f b e h in d t h e p l o t . being G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a i d e n t i fi e d t w o p o li c e Page 34 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 o ffic i a ls , W a r r a n t O ff ic e r M o g a b e a n d W a r r a n t O ff ic e r R e k e t s u a s s is ti n g G e n e r a l K h u m a lo in t h is p l o t ” . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is it c o r r e c t th a t – o r r a t h e r is t h is t h e c o n s p ir a c y p lo t t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a d a ll u d e d t o ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir I’ v e l o s t tr a c k o f a l l t h e c o n s p ir a c y p lo t s b u t t h i s is o n e o f t h e m y e s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: I s th is t h e n t h e s a m e c o n s p ir a c y p l o t t h a t th e M i n is t e r ia l t a s k t e a m w a s a p p o in t e d w h ic h w a s h e a d e d u p b y t h e C h i e f S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r M r E n v e r D a n i e ls t o i n v e s ti g a te ? 10 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir I d o n o t t h in k s o b e c a u s e t h e s o - c a ll e d p e o p l e b e h in d t h is p lo t w a s n ’ t t h e p e o p le t h a t w e r e in v e s t i g a t in g i n th e – i n M r D a n ie ls ’ i n v e s t i g a t io n o r b y h is ta s k te a m . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o th is is a d i ff e r e n t p l o t ? M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h is i s a d i ff e r e n t p l o t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: If we can go to the second point please? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: “ G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a i n h is r e p o r t said that he spoke to the sister of the deceased Mrs Lima Ramogibe 20 and th a t according to her th e matter was in v e s t i g a t e d a n d n o m e m b e r o f t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o li c e w a s c o n n e c t e d t o t h e m u r d e r. G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a c o n t i n u e d t o s t a te t h a t th e s is t e r o f th e d e c e a s e d h a d s a i d t h a t , a c c o r d i n g t o th e f a m ily t h e m a t t e r w a s a lr e a d y p u t t o r e s t ” . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h is ? C h a i r t h i s is j u s t a b s o lu t e l y – t h e Page 35 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 o p p o s it e is tr u e , I k n o w th e s is t e r o f t h e d e c e a s e d w e ’v e s p o k e n m a n y ti m e s , s h e a ls o i n fo r m e d m e a b o u t t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n , s h e n e v e r s a i d w h a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a a ll e g e d to s a y. T h e y w e r e tr y in g t o g e t th e m a t t e r o n t h e C o u r t r o ll f o r a l o n g – t h e m a t t e r to b e i n v e s ti g a te d n o t even on the Court roll for a long time, for 10 years. So she would n e v e r h a d s a i d t h a t , it ju s t d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A t p o i n t th r e e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: “ I n G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ’s v i e w t h e r e w a s a p lo t t o s to p t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f C o m m is s i o n e r M d l u l i b u t t h e p e o p l e i .e . t h e f a m il y o f t h e s a i d s u s p e c t d e c e a s e d c o u ld 10 n o t c o o p e r a t e w i th in s p e c t o r M o g a b e i n r e s p e c t [ in d is ti n c t ] h e n c e th e s o lu t io n w a s t o ta k e it t o t h e n e w s p a p e r s ” . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Do you have any comment to this point? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir I – t o m e I j u s t d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d th is I d o n o t k n o w f r o m w h a t h e ’s tr y i n g t o s a y w h e th e r th e d e c e a s e d – I m e a n t h e fa m i ly o f t h e d e c e a s e d o r w h e t h e r M o g a b e a n d L e k o t s o w e n t t o th e n e w s p a p e r s , I d o n o t k n o w, I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y c o m m e n t b e c a u s e I – t h i s is w h a t h e s a id j a . 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: No comment. I h a d a b r ie f l o o k a t t h a t d o c u m e n t w h ic h y o u c a ll r e p o r t b y G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a I m a y h a v e m is s e d s o m e t h i n g b u t I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r s e e i n g a n y f a c t u a l b a s is a d v a n c e d f o r th e v i e w t h a t c e r t a i n p e o p l e h a d c o n s p ir e d t o p r e v e n t G e n e r a l M d lu li fr o m b e in g a p p o i n t e d t o t h e – t o b e a p p o i n t e d t o h e a d C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e . W e r e y o u a b l e t o fi n d Page 36 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 a n y f a c t u a l b a s is t h a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a a d v a n c e d f o r t h a t v i e w o f i s ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: To t h e c o n tr a r y C h a ir th e r e w e r e t w o a ff id a v i ts a t t a c h e d a n d o n e o f t h e m w a s o f W a r r a n t O ff ic e r L e k o t s o , h e d e n i e d t h a t h e w a s i n v o lv e d in t h i s , i t’s u n d e r o a t h , h e i n f a c t s t a t e d t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li a p p o in t e d h i m i n h i s p o s it i o n , h e w o u l d n e v e r in v e s t i g a t e G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h ic h in e ff e c t a ls o s h o c k e d m e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s n o t w h a t y o u ’r e s u p p o s e d t o d o i f s o m e o n e h a s c o m m i t t e d a n o ffe n c e y o u n e e d t o i n v e s ti g a t e i t b u t t h e fa c t o f th e m a t te r is i t ’s n o t concluded based on fact. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e n e x t p o in t fo u r ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: “ G e n e r a l N t le m e z a o b t a i n e d a n a ffi d a v i t fr o m C o l o n e l M a r t h i n u s [i n d is t in c t ] B o th a , h e is a ls o d e c e a s e d , w h o s t a t e d a l le g a ti o n s r e l a t i n g t o t h e m u r d e r o f t h e deceased and th e i n v o lv e m e n t of General M d lu li who in v e s t i g a t e d a n d h e , B o th a , c o u l d n o t fi n d a n y w i tn e s s e s t o g iv e e v id e n c e o r s t a t e m e n t s t o p r o v e t h e s e a ll e g a t i o n s ” . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h is b a s e d o n y o u r i n d e p e n d e n t i n v e s ti g a t i o n s ? 20 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir in te r ms of my in v e s t i g a t io n s o f t h e M d lu li m a t t e r t h e Vo s lo o r u s m a t t e r, I a p p r o a c h e d C o l o n e l B o t h a , h e w a s s ti ll a l iv e a t th e ti m e , h e s a i d t o m e t h a t h e w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t i t w a s j u s t a n a ff id a v it - a s h o r t a ffi d a v i t t h a t h e h a d t o p r e p a r e f o r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a , h e d id n ’t h a v e c o n t e x t . In f a c t , h e w a s n o t t h e i n v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r s o I d o n o t k n o w th e r e a s o n Page 37 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 w h y h e w o u l d h a v e g i v e n t h e a ff id a v i t i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e , h e w a s n o t th e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r, th e w i t n e s s w e r e s t ill a v a i la b l e a n d t h e r e w e r e w i t n e s s s t a te m e n ts t a k e n fr o m th e m . T h e in v e s ti g a t io n w a s ju s t s t o p p e d i n 2 0 0 0 a n d i t d i d n ’ t c o n ti n u e . S o h i s a s s e r t io n t h a t – a n d C o l o n e l B o t h a g a v e m e a n a ff id a v i t to t h a t e ffe c t w h i c h w a s fi l e d in t h e d o c k e t. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h e n l a s tl y p o i n t fiv e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: “ G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a c o n c l u d e d fir s t t h a t W a r r a n t O ff ic e M o g a b e a n d Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r L e k o ts o w e r e t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e t o U n i f o r m B r a n c h t o 10 a v o i d f u r t h e r e m b a r r a s s m e n t p e n d i n g t h e o u t c o m e o f t h e fi n a l in q u ir y a n d s e c o n d ly th a t b o t h W a r r a n t O ff ic e r M o g a b e a n d Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r L e k o ts o t o b e c h a r g e d [ in d is t in c t] f o r m is u s i n g S t a te o w n e d v e h ic le s ” . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h a t point? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: N o C h a ir, a s fa r a s I k n o w t h e y w e r e n e v e r c h a r g e d f o r a n y d e p a r t m e n t a l c a s e a g a in s t t h e m , n o t a s f a r a s I k n o w. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is i t c o r r e c t th e n t h a t t h e o u t c o m e s o f y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n w h i c h r e l a te to th e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t y o u h a d w i t h M is s L e n a R a m o g i b e a n d C o l o n e l B o th a w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e th e C o u r t t h a t c o n s i d e r e d t h e b a il a p p lic a ti o n o f R i c h a r d M d l u l i t o w h ic h y o u opposed? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 38 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: W h a t w a s th e p u r p o s e t h e n o f t h e r e p o r t o f G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a i n y o u r v i e w ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir m a y b e I c a n ju s t c la r i fy t h e r e , I d i d n ’ t k n o w a b o u t t h is r e p o r t u n ti l t h e b a il a p p lic a ti o n , t h i s w a s h a n d e d u p b y Mr M d l u l i a s p a r t o f h is b a il a p p lic a ti o n . So based on t h a t I fo ll o w e d u p o n t h is r e p o r t a n d I s p o k e t o M i s s R a m o g i b e a n d I s p o k e t o C o l o n e l B o t h a . S o t h e n I th i n k I s u p p li e d a f u r th e r a ff i d a v i t in r e s p e c t o f th e b a il a p p li c a t io n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 S o i n y o u r v ie w w h a t w a s – w h a t d o you consider to be – have been the purpose of the report of General N tl e m e z a ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir t h e o n ly p u r p o s e o f t h is r e p o r t is to s h o w t h a t G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a i s in n o c e n t o f t h e m u r d e r b u t t h a t w a s n o t i n v e s t ig a t e d a n d if y o u l o o k a t t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e r e p o r t i ts e l f h e w a s s u p p o s e d to i n v e s t ig a t e t h is p l o t, n o t t h e murder but this was used to clear him of the murder charges and I s u b s e q u e n t ly w a s in f o r m e d t h a t t h is w a s a ls o p r e s e n t e d t o s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t a s w e l l a s t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s e v id e n c e t h a t h e w a s n ’t in v o lv e d in a n y m u r d e r p lo t . 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: KK2.4 please, th e other Can I then ask you to turn to Exhibit b u n d le , i t ’s c a l le d the r e g u l a to r y and …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry what page? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t ’s t h e E x h i b i t K K 2 . 4 , t h e r e g u l a to r y and case law bundle at page 288. Page 39 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ye s C h a ir. 2 8 8 , t h is i s t h e ju d g e m e n t o f th e H i g h C o u r t a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 2 8 s o m e w h a t i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h t o p a r a g r a p h 2 8 , a n d f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f c o n t e x ti n g o r p l a c in g th i n g s i n t o ti m e c o n t e x t t h e C o u r t r e c o r d s th a t , “ I n t h e l e tt e r d a t e d 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 a d d r e s s e d t o Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a , th e M i n is te r o f P o l ic e a n d t h e a c t in g C o m m is s i o n e r, M d u l i a l le g e d t h a t C o m m i s s io n e r B h e k i C e l e a n d o th e r s e n io r o ffic e r s , G e n e r a l P e tr o s , L e b e y a a n d D r a m a t w e r e w o r k in g 10 t o g e th e r a g a i n s t h i m . I n t h e l e t te r h e t a c t l e s s ly s ta t e d a n d it ’s q u o t e d , i n t h e e v e n t t h a t I c o m e b a c k t o w o r k I w il l a s s is t t h e P r e s i d e n t t o s u c c e e d n e x t y e a r. H e d i d n o t e x p la i n h o w h e w o u ld a s s i s t t h e Pr e s id e n t b u t i t is r e a s o n a b le t o a s s u m e t h a t h e h a d i n m in d t h e c o n fi d e n c e o f t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r ty in 2 0 1 2 a t w h ic h Pr e s id e n t Zu m a w a s r e - e l e c te d a s p a r ty l e a d e r f o r a s e c o n d fi v e - y e a r te r m . H is e n tr e a ty t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t i m p li e s t h a t M d l u l i b e li e v e d h e h a d it i n h i s g i f t t o u s e h is i n fl u e n c e a n d t h e m e a n s a t h is d is p o s a l t o t h e a d v a n t a g e o f t h e President”, 20 A r e y o u a w a r e o f th is l e t t e r d a t e d 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 M r R o e lo fs e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir I t h in k – I ’ m n o t a w a r e o f t h is le t t e r, I’ v e g o t a s i m i l a r l e t t e r w h ic h w a s a t t a c h e d d u r in g th e b a il a p p lic a ti o n , a ls o fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li a d d r e s s e d t o th e P r e s i d e n t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And so could I take you then to page Page 40 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 467 please? CHAIRPERSON: A r e y o u a s k in g u s to g o b a c k to t h e o t h e r o n e ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O h s o s o r r y E x h i b i t 2 . 1 i t ’s th e m a i n b u n d l e i t ’s E x h i b i t 5 2 w h ic h s t a r ts o n p a g e 4 6 7 . CHAIRPERSON: What page? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 4 6 7 , t h is a p p e a r s t o b e a l e tt e r w h ic h i s d a te d th e 11 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n o n e s e c , d id y o u s a y 4 6 7 ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 4 6 7 , y e s C h a ir, it ’s t h e la s t Annexure to the bundle. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: This appears to be a letter dated the 11 t h o f N o v e m b e r, a r e y o u t h e r e a t t h e p a g e ? This appears to be a le t t e r d a t e d th e 11 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d it ’s a l e tt e r t h a t’s a d d r e s s e d t o a ) T h e Pr e s id e n t o f th e R e p u b li c o f S o u th A fr ic a , b ) T h e M in is t e r o f P o lic e , c ) T h e M i n i s te r o f S t a t e S e c u r i t y, d ) Th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d e ) Th e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f I n te ll i g e n c e , i t is t it l e d v i c t i m is a ti o n a n d a b u s e o f s ta t e r e s o u r c e s a g a i n s t t h e D iv is i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . 20 A t p a g e 4 7 1 it a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n s i g n e d b y Lieutenant General R N Mdluli. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir I’ m f a m il ia r w it h th e s ig n a tu r e , i t lo o k s li k e h i s s i g n a t u r e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: What is th e relevance or s ig n if ic a n c e o f t h i s l e t t e r to y o u r i n v e s ti g a t io n a n d t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u ’v e g i v e n ? Page 41 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir i n r e s p e c t o f th is l e t t e r w h a t t h e r e le v a n c e w a s , I t h i n k d u r i n g th e b a il a p p lic a ti o n w a s t o in d i c a t e to t h e Pr e s id e n t o f S o u th A f r i c a th a t h e w a s i n v o l v e d i n a lo v e t r i a n g le a n d s h e t h e n r e p o r t e d e n t it l e d , a ll e g e d ir r e g u l a r i t ie s , m e m b e r s o f S A P S , C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w h ic h is a t ta c h e d a s A n n e x u r e A . N o w h e ’s r e fe r r i n g to t h e – t o G e n e r a l N t le m e z a ’s r e p o r t t h a t h e a t t a c h e s t o t h is le t t e r a n d t h e n h e d e a l s w i t h t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t h e r e c e iv e d a n d t h e n he deals with him a s k in g General N tl e m e z a to a s s is t in the in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th e n a t p o i n t s e v e n , w h a t is f o r m e , o f i m p o r t a n c e is , 10 I m u s t c a t e g o r ic a l ly p o i n t o u t th a t th is is n o w i n t e r m s o f th e Vo s lo o r u s matter that, “ I w a s n e v e r in v o lv e d i n t h i s l o v e tr i a n g l e w h e n M a j o r G e n e r a l S i b iy a fr o m t h e H a w k s w a s a p p o i n t e d , C h a n t e l le w e n t to h i m w i t h t h e s a m e a l l e g a ti o n s , t h i s w a s th e n h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e D i v is io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r L e b e y a , h o w e v e r, b y t h is t i m e I ’v e a lr e a d y p r o v id e d D i v is i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r L e b e y a w i th th e r e p o r t b y M a jo r G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a ” . T h e n h e c o n t in u e s a n d h e s t a te s f u r th e r t h e r e , a n d t h is is f o r m e i n t e r m s o f th is C o m m i s s i o n t h a t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t , 20 “ T h e s e a r e th e v e r y s a m e m e m b e r s , a n d h e ’s n o w r e f e r r i n g t o C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , t h e s e a r e th e v e r y s a m e m e m b e r s t h a t were involved in th e n e g a t iv e c a m p a i g n i n g at the ANC c o n fe r e n c e i n P o lo k w a n e d u r i n g 2 0 0 7 . T h e y w e r e i n t h e c a m p o f t h e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t a n d a r e n o t t r y i n g t o t a k e c o n tr o l o f t h e I n t e lli g e n c e e n v ir o n m e n t w i th in t h e p o li c e f o r d e v i o u s t a c ti c s . Page 42 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 T h i s is e x a c e r b a t e d b y th e fa c t t h a t o n 2 0 1 0 / 11 /1 0 W a r r a n t O ff ic e r D l o m o w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h r e e w h i te s , o n e o f t h e m r e q u e s t e d Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r D lo m o t o r e c o n s i d e r h is s t a t e m e n t that he made in 1999. T h i s c h a n g e w o u l d p o s i t iv e ly i n c r i m in a te C o l o n e l K i m b a a n d m e . T h e y h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly m a d e a f u r t h e r a p p o in t m e n t w i t h Wa r r a n t O ffic e r D l o m o o n 2 0 1 0 / 11 / 1 6 , t h e y h o w e v e r w a n t e d t o k n o w i f h e ’s – D lo m o ’s r e l a t i o n s h i p w it h C o l o n e l K i m b a a n d a s k e d w h y h e w a s c a l le d k il le r. 10 M y r e l a t io n s h i p w i t h C o lo n e l K i m b a is o n a p r o fe s s i o n a l le v e l , b o t h p o li t ic a l ly a n d w o r k r e l a t e d , th e r e ’s n o fr i e n d r e l a ti o n s h i p a s u g g e s t e d a n d t h e n h e g o e s f u r t h e r h e s a y s , C o l o n e l K i m b a i s a n a c t iv e m e m b e r o f t h e A N C a n d d u r i n g t h e s tr u g g le w a s a l e a d e r o f o n e o f th e s e l f d e f e n c e u n i ts u n d e r t h e N K B A . H e w a s a ls o a b o d y g u a r d f o r M r s W i n n i e M a n d e l a a n d f o r m e r M i n is t e r S t e v e Ts h w e te . I w o r k e d c l o s e ly w it h t h e m d u r in g th e a p a r t h e id e r a e s p e c i a l ly d u r i n g t h e r i o ts , C o lo n e l K i m b a a ls o p l a y e d a n i m p o r t a n t r o l e in th e P o l o k w a n e c o n f e r e n c e a n d a l s o d u r in g th e Pr e s id e n t’s tr y i n g ti m e s w i t h i n e n g a g e m e n t s w i t h t h e N PA . 20 He was a p p o i n t e d i n th e p o li c e d u r i n g t h e t i m e o f th e fo r m e r N a ti o n a l Commissioner Jackie Selebi. I t is w o r r y i n g t h a t a f te r d e a li n g w i th t h e M p e g u is s u e s , w e s ti ll h a v e t o d e a l w i t h s u p p o s e d ly o u r o w n p e o p l e a r e s e n i o r o ffic e r s i n th e I n t e ll ig e n c e e n v ir o n m e n t , t h e y a r e s t il l fi g h t i n g p e r s o n a l a g e n d a s th a t s h o u l d b e p e r s o n a l . T h e q u e s t io n n o w Page 43 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 a r i s e s w h a t a n d h o w d o th e y w a n t to u s e th e I n te ll ig e n c e e n v ir o n m e n t t o e ff e c t t h e 2 0 1 2 b u il d - u p t o t h e A N C c o n f e r e n c e . W i th th is i n m i n d I h a v e , f o r th e p a s t fe w m o n th s , ti g h te n e d o n e x p e n d i t u r e e s p e c i a lly r e m u n e r a t io n fo r s o u r c e s w i th th e v i e w o f e n s u r in g f u n d s a r e n o t a b u s e d fo r u l te r i o r p u r p o s e s r e l a t i n g t o th e 2 0 1 2 b u i ld - u p t o th e A N C c o n fe r e n c e . D o th e y w a n t to f o ll o w th e M p e g u s ty l e a n d tr y a n d d e r a i l t h e A N C , I h a v e r e q u e s t e d a n in d e p e n d e n t b o d y t o i n v e s t i g a te t h e s e i n d iv i d u a l s w i t h t h e v ie w o f u n c o v e r i n g th e i r p lo t s ? 10 members were a ls o a c t iv e with the T h e s e s e n io r l o y a l i n te r c e p ti o n s of Mr Ts h w e t e ’s w i fe . I t i s i m p o r ta n t t o n o t e t h a t t h e m e m b e r o f t h e e r s t w h il e S c o r p io n s a r e a l s o i n v o lv e d i n t h e s e a c t iv i ti e s . I w il l b e f a i li n g in m y r e s p o n s i b il it i e s i f I d o n o t m e n t io n th a t b o th t h e jo in t s t a n d in g c o m m i t t e e i n In t e l li g e n c e a n d th e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f I n te ll i g e n c e h a v e c o m m e n d e d m e o n m y p e r f o r m a n c e a n d h a v e s t a te d t h a t a m a r k e d d i ff e r e n c e h a s b e e n n o t ic e d fr o m t h e ti m e o f my a p p o i n t m e n t . I fi n d i t v e r y d i s tu r b in g a n d e m b a r r a s s e d t o fi n d t h a t I h a v e b e e n in v e s t i g a t e d fo r n o 20 a p p a r e n t r e a s o n , e s p e c i a l ly w h e n i n it i a t e d b y p e r s o n s w h o h a v e p r o v e n t h e m s e lv e s t o b e d is l o y a l. I m u s t a ls o a t t h is s t a g e s ta t e t h a t a l t h o u g h I m i g h t n o t h a v e g o n e o u ts i d e a n d a c ti v e ly i n v o l v e d i n t h e s tr u g g l e I w a s a c t iv e in m a n y o t h e r a r e a s . I w a s a n d s t il l a m a lo y a l A N C m e m b e r. G iv e n t h e a b o v e a n d m y fr u s tr a ti o n s I h u m b ly r e q u e s t th a t th e Page 44 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 d e c is i o n b e t a k e t o r e s o lv e t h i s is s u e a n d i f n e e d s b e t o a p p o i n t a n i n d e p e n d e n t p e r s o n t o a d d r e s s th e s e s o - c a l l e d lo y a lis t s a n d th e i r a s s o c i a t e s . It w o u l d b e a p p r e c i a t e d i f a tt e n ti o n c a n b e g iv e n to t h e f a c t th a t m y c a lls a r e b e i n g monitored”. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D o y o u k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a n y a c ti o n t a k e n p u r s u a n t to t h is le t t e r ? MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir, b u t w h a t I d o k n o w f r o m w h e r e I s i t i t c o n f ir m s t h e f a c t t h a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a r e 10 in v o lv e d i n p a r t y p o li t ic s a n d a r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e A N C c o n f e r e n c e s w h ic h th e y a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o d o i t ’s n o t p a r t o f t h e i r m a n d a te . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I w a s g o i n g to r a is e t h e q u e s ti o n th a t , th a t le t t e r – in th a t l e tt e r i t s e e m s to b e ta lk i n g t o t h e p o li t ic i a n s a b o u t fa c t i o n a l b a t t le s w i t h i n th e A N C a n d i t s e e ms t o s u g g e s t t h a t w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e o r w i t h in t h e p o l ic e t h e r e a r e p e o p le w h o m a y h a v e b e e n o n a c e r ta i n c a m p in t h e P o lo k w a n e c o n f e r e n c e a n d o t h e r s o n o th e r camps. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t I r e a d in t o t h is l e t te r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: If I could then in summary of the e v i d e n c e y o u ’v e g iv e n , a s k y o u t o t u r n t o E x h i b i t 2 . 3 w h ic h is th e diagrams bundle and ask you to please turn to page or diagram three. CHAIRPERSON: T h e l e t t e r w h i c h y o u s a id y o u h a v e w h e n M is s S e p te m b e r a s k e d y o u o r r e fe r r e d y o u t o J u d g e M u r p h y ’s j u d g m e n t Page 45 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 w h e r e h e q u o t e s o n e s e n t e n c e fr o m a c e r t a i n le t t e r t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a p p e a r s to h a v e a d d r e s s e d t o t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t , w e r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e a d o r a n o t h e r ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I p r e s u m e i t ’s a n o t h e r l e t te r b e c a u s e t h a t s p e c i f ic q u o te is n o t i n t h is le t te r. CHAIRPERSON: S o – n o w h a t I ’ m a s k i n g i s w h e t h e r, w h e n y o u s a i d y o u d o h a v e a n o t h e r l e tt e r b u t I t h i n k y o u w e r e s a y i n g i t m i g h t n o t b e t h e s a m e le t t e r fr o m w h ic h t h e J u d g e q u o t e d . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. J a b u t w h a t I ’ m a s k i n g is w h e t h e r th e l e t te r y o u ’r e s a y in g y o u d o h a v e is n o t th e o n e th a t y o u h a v e ju s t r e a d ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t i s th e o n e t h a t I h a v e j u s t read. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s t h e o n e y o u ’r e r e f e r r in g to , o k a y a lr ig h t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a ir t h is d i a g r a m w h ic h is e n ti t le d ti m e li n e , i s – h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d w i t h th e u s e o f tw o p a g e s b e c a u s e it w a s s i m p l y i ll e g i b l e w h e n o n o n e p a g e s o th e ti m e li n e th e n s t a r ts o n p a g e t h r e e a n d i t c o n c lu d e s o n p a g e fo u r. I f w e c o u ld s t a r t o n p a g e t h r e e , M r R o e l o fs e , i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h is ti m e li n e w h ic h y o u h a v e 20 c o n fir m e d is i n f a c t a c o n s e r v a t iv e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e d e l a y s e n c o u n te r e d b y d i ff e r e n t in d i v i d u a ls w i t h in t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e a n d th e N PA ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. If w e l o o k th e n t o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . I d o n ’t t h in k i t w il l b e n e c e s s a r y to g o t h r o u g h e a c h , Page 46 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 I t h i n k i t’s s u ffi c i e n t i f h e s a y s h e is a w a r e o f i t a n d it ’s a c o r r e c t r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o f t h e d e l a y s t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d o r i ts c o n te n ts a r e c o r r e c t b e c a u s e I th in k i t’s q u i t e c l e a r, u n l e s s th e r e ’s s o m e o t h e r p o i n t y o u w a n te d to r a is e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir, t h e r e is j u s t o n e q u e s t io n I w a n t t o a s k h i m o n th is . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n ts to th e a c c u r a c y o f ti m e a s i t ’s r e c o r d e d in th e d e l a y s w h ic h a r e r e p r e s e n t e d in 10 d a y s a t t h e b o tt o m s tr i p o f p a g e s t h r e e a n d f o u r ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir I ’v e g o t o n e c o m m e n t , t h i s is a v e r y – a s I s a id a v e r y c o n s e r v a t iv e t h e t a b le o r t h e t i m e l in e th a t ’s b e e n d r a w n u p in t e r m s o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w e k n o w w a s s e n t b u t I k n o w d is c u s s i o n s t o o k p l a c e e a r l ie r a n d I ’ m s p e c i f ic a l ly s p e a k in g a b o u t G e n e r a l N g c o b o w h e r e I a lr e a d y s p o k e t o h i m i n 2 0 1 2 b u t th is o n l y r e fl e c ts fr o m 2 0 1 3 a n d t h e n I t h in k w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is th a t th e y h a d g o n e b y in t e r m s o f n o n - c o o p e r a ti o n o r n o n - a s s is t a n c e a n d i f p o s s ib le I ju s t w a n t to r e a d t h o s e d a y s o u t o r r e a d t h e m i n to t h e r e c o r d . G e n e r a l N g c o b o fr o m t h e p e r i o d 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 to O c t o b e r 1 7 , 2 0 1 3 , t h a t is 2 4 4 20 d a y s o f d o i n g n o t h i n g . G e n e r a l Z u l u 4 3 3 d a y s , in t h a t p e r i o d i t w a s 6 9 6 d a y s fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 1 3 t o 2 0 1 5 a n d G e n e r a l P h i y e g a i s v e r y c o n s e r v a ti v e , i t ’s 1 0 9 d a y s , G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a i s 9 4 4 d a y s , G e n e r a l M a d i b a 1 2 7 d a y s , G e n e r a l S i th o le 9 6 8 d a y s a n d t h a t’s a p e r io d o f seven years. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I f w e c a n t h e n – u n le s s y o u h a v e Page 47 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 a n y q u e r ie s w e c a n m o v e o n , i f w e c a n th e n t u r n t o d i a g r a m s ix o f t h a t same b u n d le w h ic h is th e la s t diagram. T h is diagram w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u s a y s ix ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Is i t c o r r e c t th a t th is d i a g r a m w a s p r e p a r e d o ff t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t y o u h a d p r o v id e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h a t a t t h e t i m e i t w a s c o n fi r m e d t o b e c o r r e c t ? 10 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. O n t h e l e ft - h a n d s i d e y o u h a v e a c o l u m n w h ic h is ti t le d , S S A , S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t a n d y o u h a v e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d /o r b e n e fi ts – s o r r y a n d / o r a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d / o r b e n e fi ts . I s it c o r r e c t t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t r e l a te s t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f v a r io u s a s s e ts ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A p p o i n t m e n t s r e l a te s to e i th e r in v o lv e m e n t in t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f i n d iv i d u a ls i n t o C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e a s part of the 250 process in 2010? 20 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d b e n e fi ts c o u l d b e o f a n y k in d ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In the middle we have a column ti t le d , b o t h , w h ic h i s u n d e r s to o d t o s tr a d d l e b e tw e e n t h e c o l u m n o n th e le f t a n d t h e c o l u m n o n t h e r i g h t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 48 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d s o t h e c o lu m n o n t h e r i g h t is ti l te d , o b s tr u c t in g i n v e s t ig a ti o n s w h ic h is u n d e r s to o d t o b e e i t h e r t h r o u g h a c t io n o r i n a c ti o n ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e c o l o u r c o d i n g k e y is a t th e b o t t o m o f th is d i a g r a m , y e l lo w is c iv ili a n , b lu e is th e S o u th A f r ic a n P o lic e S e r v ic e , r e d is th e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty, g r e e n is C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , b la c k is C a b in e t a n d G r e y is t h e J S C I , J o in t 10 S t a n d i n g C o m m i t te e o f I n te ll ig e n c e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d t h i s d ia g r a m w a s t h e n p o p u l a t e d t h r o u g h t h e i d e n ti f ic a ti o n o f i n d i v i d u a ls w h o w e r e t h e n e it h e r i n v o lv e d in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t a n d / o r a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d /o r w h o r e c e iv e d b e n e fi t s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. An d on the other hand your e x p e r i e n c e i n s o f a r a s a c t i o n o r in a c t io n b y i n d iv i d u a l s e i t h e r w i t h i n t h e N PA , S A P S o r e v e n t h e J o i n t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e o f I n t e ll i g e n c e i n 20 r e l a ti o n t o y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d s o th e s e p a r tic u la r i n d iv id u a l s w h o s e a c t io n o r i n a c ti o n e ffe c t iv e l y o b s tr u c t e d t h e p r o g r e s s o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e c o l u m n Page 49 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 on the right. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: H o w e v e r, th r o u g h y o u r e v i d e n c e t h i s t a b le h a s s l ig h tl y m o v e d in t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n c la r i ty o n c e r t a i n a s p e c ts w h ic h r e q u ir e s y o u t o a d d r e s s s o m e o f t h e s e p a r ti c u la r in d i v i d u a ls . I f w e c o u l d f ir s t s t a r t w i t h t h e c o l u m n o n th e l e f t- h a n d s id e , G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e i s m e n ti o n e d i n te r ms o f th e – i n te r ms o f m y a ffi d a v i t . R e g a r d i n g th e b e n e fi ts I d o n o t – th a t i s o n e o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t I c o u ld n o t c o r r o b o r a t e 10 a n d I a m ta lk in g a b o u t th e fi n a n c i a l b e n e fi t t h a t w a s a ll e g e d t o h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d . S o i n t e r m s o f t h a t i t w a s i n f o r m a t i o n I a m n o t in a p o s i ti o n a n d I p r e s u m e I w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n a p o s i ti o n t o e i t h e r p r o v e o r d is p r o v e t h a t h a d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n c o n ti n u e d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: T h e n e x t is … But let me just understand this diagram. T h e fir s t c o l u m n y o u h a v e S S A P r o c u r e m e n t a n d o r a p p o in t m e n ts a n d o r b e n e fi ts . Th e n y o u h a v e g o t p e o p l e s ’ n a m e s . a ls o h a s g o t n a m e s o f p e o p l e . people. 20 T h e n t h e n e x t c o lu m n A ll t h e c o lu m n s h a v e g o t n a m e o f W h a t i s t h e c o n n e c ti o n b e t w e e n t h e f ir s t c o l u m n a n d t h e s e c o n d c o lu m n ? F o r e x a m p l e w h e r e i t s a y s L e o H a y e s B M W M i n is t e r Nathi. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: CHAIRPERSON: W h a t i s t h e c o n n e c ti o n w i th t h e ? W h a t is t h e c o n n e c t i o n j a b e t w e e n t h e t w o ? What d o e s t h e d ia g r a m s a y a b o u t th e tw o f o r e x a m p l e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: A r e w e t a l k i n g a b o u t n o w M i n i s te r Page 50 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 Nathi Mthethwa? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s a n d L e o H a y e s a B M W ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir t h e r e is n o c o n n e c ti o n b e t w e e n t h e tw o i t i s a b o u t th e – i t i s a b o u t a b e n e fi t t h a t M r N a t h i M t h e th w a r e c e iv e d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Chair if I may? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t i s u n d e r s t o o d t h a t th e r e is n o p a r t ic u l a r r e le v a n c e t o t h e o r d e r o f h o w th e s e c o l u m n s h a v e b e e n 10 populated with names. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h e r e is a ls o n o l in k a g e s b e t w e e n t h e n a m e s a s th e y a l ig n e d b e l o w o r a b o v e o r a l o n g s id e e a c h o t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t w a s r e a ll y a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t a n y w a y a g r o u p in g o f i n d iv id u a ls o ff t h e e v id e n c e o f – o ff t h e a ff i d a v i t o f t h is w i t n e s s a s to w h i c h in d iv i d u a ls h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f a s s e ts a n d o r a p p o i n t m e n ts o f i n d i v i d u a ls a n d o r t h e r e c e i p t o f b e n e fi ts . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o e s th a t b o th m e a n o n – a t th e t o p o f t h e t h ir d column? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir s o r r y I t h o u g h t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. The column you see at the top it says both. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is b o t h w h a t? Page 51 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: f a ll w i t h i n b o t h t h o s e c o lu m n s . I t i s b o th – th e s e i n d iv id u a l s w i ll T h e y a r e a p p l ic a b l e t o b o th c o lu m n s . I n o t h e r w o r d s th e y b e n e fi t t e d a n d t h e y a ls o o b s tr u c t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t b o t h b e n e f i ts a n d a p p o i n t m e n ts ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f t h e f ir s t c o l u m n o n y o u r le f t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th e h e a d i n g s a y s “ P r o c u r e m e n t , a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d b e n e f i ts . ” 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: A n d i t i s a ls o r e l e v a n t t o o b s tr u c ti n g in v e s ti g a t i o n s a c t io n a n d i n a c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E: S o t h e s e i n d i v i d u a ls w il l f a l l in t o both of these categories. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e in d iv i d u a ls w h o a r e u n d e r th e th ir d c o l u m n ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: U n d e r t h e – u n d e r th e t h i r d – t h e s e c o n d c o lu m n . T h e y u n d e r b o t h . S o t h e i n d iv id u a l s u n d e r b o t h … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. 20 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: W o u l d – th e i n d iv i d u a l s u n d e r b o t h w o u l d q u a l i fy t o f a l l u n d e r b o t h – u n d e r t h e fir s t a n d t h e t h ir d column. CHAIRPERSON: J a p r o b a b l y c o u ld h a v e b e e n m a d e m u c h m o r e s i m p l e r. I t s e e m s c o n f u s i n g . B u t t h e id e a w a s y o u w a n t e d to m a k e a lis t o f p e r s o n s w h o a r e i m p lic a t e d i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r in r e g a r d t o Page 52 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 p r o c u r e m e n t a n d a p p o i n t m e n t s a n d b e n e fi ts a s w e l l a s t h e o b s tr u c ti o n o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n e i t h e r b y a c t i o n o r i n a c ti o n . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. I a m n o t s u r e m a y b e I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d . I a m n o t s u r e t h a t i t c o n v e y s t h in g s a s c le a r l y a s it c o u l d b u t o n e c o u l d – c a n a lw a y s g o b a c k t o y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h s a y s w h o d i d w h a t , w h o did not do what. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: B u t in a l l f a i r n e s s t o t h is – to t h e e v i d e n c e – t o t h e t e s ti m o n y t h a t y o u h a v e p r e s e n t e d t o t h is c o m m i s s io n t h e r e a r e c e r ta in in d iv i d u a ls t h a t y o u n e e d t o a d d r e s s s o t h a t it is – a c c o r d s w i t h t h e te s t i m o n y. MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Th a t … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a t w a s d o n e – th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. And so where reference is made to A fr ic a n D r e a m C h u r c h w h ic h s h o u l d b e A f r ic a n F a m il y D r e a m C h u r c h is 20 it c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e o n ly r e fe r e n c in g c e r t a i n P a s t o r s o f t h a t c h u r c h . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir. I a m n o t r e fe r e n c in g th e c h u r c h t h a t i s ju s t b y – b y w a y o f n a m e b u t w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t t h e i n d iv id u a l s w it h in t h e c h u r c h . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h e n in r e l a t i o n to L LV S Tr a d i n g S e r v ic e s a n d C o lo n e l V M a la z a L LV S e r v ic e s b e in g 5 t h – th e y e l lo w Page 53 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 block 5th on the left hand side and Malaza being the 1st green block on t h e le f t h a n d s id e in t h e s a m e c o l u m n , Is it c o r r e c t t h a t th a t r e l a te d t o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s o f Mr R o o s a s y o u g a v e ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d t h e n i f o n e l o o k s t o th e c o l u m n o n t h e r ig h t h a n d s id e L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e ’s n a m e is i n c l u d e d . D o y o u h a v e a n y c l a r i ty i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a i r I t h in k I h a v e e x p l a i n e d m y – my – h o w I v ie w e d – h o w I v i e w w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e . It is in t e r m s 10 o f t h e i n a c ti o n f o r a p e r i o d o f ti m e a n d t h a t i s w h y h e i s i n th a t c o l u m n . A l th o u g h h e d i d a c t a f te r q u i t e s o m e ti m e h e d i d a c t . After being in f o r m e d i n w r i ti n g t o a s s is t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d t h e n i f o n e w e r e to l o o k a t th e b o t t o m b l o c k – w e s ti ll ta lk in g to th e r i g h t h a n d c o l u m n . Advocate N Jiba. Yo u h a v e I t w a s y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t y o u c a n n o t s p e c u la t e r e g a r d in g A d v o c a t e J i b a b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t k n o w if s h e s a w t h e d o c u m e n ts o r n o t . S h o u ld h e r n a m e t h u s r e m a in i n – u n d e r a c o lu m n w h ic h i n fo r ms t h a t t h r o u g h e it h e r a c ti o n o r i n a c ti o n s h e o b s tr u c te d y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s ? 20 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a ir a s I s t a t e d e a r l i e r a n d I h a v e te s t i fi e d t o th is a t M o k g o r o C o m m i s s i o n a s w e l l. c a n n o t f o r a f a c t s t a te t h a t s h e k n e w. I cannot – I I t w o u ld b e ju s t fo r m e v e r y h i g h ly u n l ik e l y th a t t h e o ff ic e o f th e N D P P w h e n it is – w i th r e g a r d s t o a s e r io u s m a t t e r l ik e a n d t h e y – i m p o r t a n t m a tt e r li k e t h is t h a t s h e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d a n d w o u l d n o t h a v e h a d s i g h t o f t h o s e le t t e r s . Page 54 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 S o I b a s e d m y – w h a t I a m s a y i n g o n t h e a s s u m p t io n t h a t s h e d i d b u t I do not know that for a fact. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I d o n o w k n o w w h e th e r i t m ig h t n o t b e a g o o d id e a t o r e v is i t t h is d i a g r a m a n d if – a n d s e e w h e r e y o u s t a n d i n r e g a r d t o e a c h o f t h e p e o p l e s o t h a t i n th e e n d y o u a r e a b le t o s a y i n r e g a r d t o t h e fo ll o w i n g m y p o s it i o n i s c l e a r i t is t h is . In r e g a r d t o t h e s e m a y b e I a m n o t s u r e b u t t h e s e o n e s a r e th e o n e s t h a t I a m q u i t e c l e a r a b o u t. S o – s o I – I j u s t m e n ti o n e d t h a t i t i s s o m e th in g t h a t m i g h t – m i g h t – it m a y b e n e c e s s a r y t o d o a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t o r a s u p p l e m e n t a r y 10 d i a g r a m t h a t c a n b e d e l iv e r e d l a t e r a t s o m e s ta g e . B u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s it i o n t h e d i a g r a m w a s m e a n t t o g i v e to m a k e th i n g s c le a r e r b u t I d o n o t th in k i t m a k e s t h in g s a s c l e a r e r a s m a y h a v e b e e n i n t e n d e d . B u t t h e f a c t o f t h e m a t te r is t h a t t h e r e i s t h e s t a t e m e n t w h ic h s a y s w h o d i d what and who did not do what. So one can always go back there. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th e o n ly l a s t p o i n t f o r c la r i ty i n r e l a ti o n t o th is d i a g r a m w h ic h I b e li e v e th is w i tn e s s n e e d s t o c l a r i fy is B r i g a d ie r G S t e y n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s to B r i g a d ie r G S t e y n w h o w a s i n c lu d e d i n y o u r d i a g r a m ? MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a i r h e w a s – h e w a s i n c l u d e d in t e r m s o f th e s t a te m e n t th a t is a t ta c h e d t o m y a ff id a v i t o f C o l o n e l R o o s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d th e n d o y o u h a v e a n y c o n c l u d i n g r e m a r k s M r R o e lo fs e h a v in g r e a c h e d t h e e n d o f y o u r s t a te m e n t ? Page 55 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll th is h a b i t o f e v i d e n c e le a d e r s o f a s k i n g witnesses for concluding remarks. M r R o e l o f s e I t h i n k t h a t t h a t is a w a y o f M s S e p te m b e r s a y i n g t h a t s h e h a s n o f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s fo r y o u . I f y o u – t h e r e i s a n y th i n g th a t y o u t h i n k y o u h a v e l e f t o u t th a t is i m p o r t a n t o r s o m e a s p e c t t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e p u t in p r o p e r p e r s p e c t iv e fe e l f r e e t o d e a l w i t h i t b u t o t h e r w is e s in c e s h e h a s i n v it e d y o u – if y o u d o h a v e a n y fi n a l r e m a r k s y o u m a y – y o u m a y m a k e t h e m . MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: C h a i r t h e r e i s v e r y – t h e r e is a l o t o f fi n a l r e m a r k s b u t I w o u l d r a t h e r – I w i ll r e fr a i n fr o m m a k i n g th e m . 10 J u s t to s a y I w o u l d li k e t o t h a n k t h e c o m m is s i o n f o r th e – fo r t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o b e h e r e a n d to g iv e h o p e f u l ly i n s ig h t i n t o w h a t is h a p p e n in g i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o lic e S e r v ic e a n d a l s o j u s t to c la r i fy t h a t t h i s b u t a m ic r o c o s m o f w h a t is c u r r e n tly h a p p e n i n g w i t h o t h e r d e t e c t iv e s a n d o t h e r in v e s ti g a t io n s . S o t h is i s n o t t h e o n ly o n e t h e r e a r e o t h e r s e s p e c i a l ly w h e n i t c o m e s to c o r r u p t io n c a s e s . CHAIRPERSON: W a s I r ig h t to s a y t h a t w a s y o u r w a y o f s a y i n g y o u h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. Fa ir ly c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C o lo n e l R o e l o f s e f o r h a v i n g c o m e f o r w a r d t o s h a r e w i t h t h e c o m m is s i o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e s a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g a n d t h e c h a ll e n g e s y o u f a c e d w h e n y o u w e r e p u r s u in g c e r t a i n in v e s t i g a t io n s . As I have s a i d i t i s – I a m q u i t e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w h a t a p p e a r s to h a v e h a p p e n e d a n d t h e – i t is c l e a r t o m e t h a t t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n tr y i n g t o g e t d e c l a s s i f ie d a r e d o c u m e n t s th a t a t l e a s t I a m s u r e s o m e o f t h e m Page 56 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n w o u l d b e i n t e r e s t e d in b e c a u s e t h e y r e la t e t o m a t t e r s th a t fa ll w it h in t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e c o m m i s s io n . T h e le g a l t e a m w ill b e – r e m a i n i n t o u c h w i t h y o u – p l e a s e r e m a i n in t o u c h w i t h t h e m a n d c e r t a i n l y a t te m p t s w i ll b e m a d e b y t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o o b t a i n d o c u m e n ts t h a t m a y t h r o w l ig h t o n s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th a n d y o u w i ll – y o u w il l b e k e p t i n fo r m e d . B u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m i n g f o r w a r d to s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w w it h th e c o m m i s s io n . I h o p e t h a t o th e r p e o p l e w it h i n l a w e n f o r c e m e n t w h o m a y h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h s i m i la r c h a ll e n g e s a s y o u d id w il l c o m e f o r w a r d a ls o 10 a n d s h a r e w i t h t h e c o m m is s i o n w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g . B e c a u s e th e c o m m i s s io n c a n n o t m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a s t o h o w t h i n g s m u s t b e fi x e d in c e r t a i n s e c t o r s i f i t d o e s n o t h a v e p e o p l e w h o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d s a y th e r e i s s o m e t h in g w r o n g g o i n g o n t h e r e . T h i s is w h a t i s g o i n g w r o n g . A n d i f c e r t a i n s e c t o r s in t h e c o u n tr y h a v e t h i n g s g o i n g w r o n g p a r t ic u l a r ly w it h l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a n d t h e c o m m i s s i o n is n o t t o l d t h e n t h e c o u n tr y d o e s n o t k n o w t h e n t h e c o u n tr y c a n n o t a tt e n d t o t h o s e t h i n g s t o m a k e s u r e t h in g s c h a n g e . S o I a m g r a te f u l t h a t y o u – y o u c a m e t o s h a r e y o u r e v i d e n c e w it h t h e c o m m i s s io n . Yo u m a y b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d I h a v e n o d o u b t y o u w il l c o m e b a c k i f a s k e d b u t th a n k 20 y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g fo r w a r d . F o r n o w I s e e M s S e p t e m b e r d o e s n o t w a n t m e to r e le a s e y o u . M s S e p t e m b e r w h a t d o y o u w a n t? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M i g h t I b e p e r m i t t e d t o ju s t h a n d u p a m o r e l e g ib l e c o p y o f K D R 2 2 w h ic h y o u r e q u e s t e d ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o th a t is f in e . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . very much. Page 57 of 61 Thank you 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Thank you. you. We are going to take th e tea a d j o u r n m e n t . I a m s u p p o s e d t o h e a r e v i d e n c e r e l a t i n g t o E s ti n a a f t e r t h is b u t t h e l e g a l t e a m w il l t a lk t o m e I a m s u r e d u r in g t h e t e a b r e a k a n d t h e n w e w il l ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e . I w i ll s e e w h a t i s g o in g t o h a p p e n . W e w i ll a d jo u r n f o r te a a n d i t is n o w tw e n ty th r e e m in u te s p a s t e l e v e n ; w e w ill r e s u m e a t t w e n t y t o t w e lv e . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . 10 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Gcabashe. Good morning e v e r y b o d y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Good morning DCJ. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . We are supposed to have the evidence of Ms Rockman … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t D C … C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h r e g a r d to Vr e d e ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t D C J . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d s h e i s r e p r e s e n t e d b y le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s D C J . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o w o u ld l i k e t o - th e y to o w o u l d li k e t o p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s d o t h a t . Page 58 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 UNKNOWN PERSON: Thank you DCJ. I appear on behalf of M s R o c k m a n h a v in g b e e n i n s tr u c t e d t o d o s o b y M r Br e t t M u r i s o n o f Boqwana Burns. DCJ thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D C J j u s t to i n d ic a te t h a t s h e i s h e r e a n d and able to … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s R o c k m a n is h e r e a n d r e a d y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , o k a y. J u s t f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e p u b l ic e v e r y b o d y is h e r e a n d t h e y a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d b u t w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o p r o c e e d w i th th e h e a r i n g o f e v i d e n c e t o d a y. We were going to c o n ti n u e e v e n t o m o r r o w i n a n a t te m p t t o tr y a n d f in a l is e b u t I a m n o t t o o w e ll a n d e a r l ie r I th o u g h t m a y b e I w o u l d b e a b le t o c o n t in u e b u t I t h i n k i t is b e s t t h a t I g o a n d tr y a n d r e s t a n d i f n e c e s s a r y s e e a d o c to r, s o t h a t h o p e f u lly b y n e x t w e e k I w il l b e fi n e . So I am sorry that we c a n n o t p r o c e e d a n d I k n o w t h a t p e o p l e h a v e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts to b e h e r e b u t o f c o u r s e o n e d o e s n o t p la n f o r t h is k i n d o f t h i n g . S o w e a r e n o t g o i n g to p r o c e e d . I h a v e s p o k e n t o t h e l e g a l te a m s o n b o th s i d e s who understand. 20 W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n th e h e a r i n g o f M s R o c k m a n ’s e v i d e n c e p r o v is i o n a lly t o t h e 1 4 t h a n d 1 5 O c t o b e r. I t is p r o v i s i o n a l b e c a u s e c e r ta i n t h i n g s n e e d t o - t h e C o m m is s i o n n e e d - n e e d s t o c h e c k c e r t a i n th in g s w i t h r e g a r d to a w i tn e s s w h o w a s g o i n g t o b e h e r e d u r in g t h a t w e e k w h o m i g h t n o t b e h e r e b e c a u s e o f c e r t a in c ir c u m s ta n c e s . S o c o n fir m a t i o n w il l b e p r o v i d e d i n d u e c o u r s e . A t th is s t a g e Page 59 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 it l o o k s li k e th o s e d a te s a r e fi n e f o r a l l s i d e s . Th a t is w h a t is g o in g t o happen. I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y th in g t o s a y o r a d d Ms Gcabashe. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No, no nothing at all DCJ. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O t h e r th a n t o a s k y o u t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To r e s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d to a c t u a lly s e e a d o c t o r. T h a n k y o u DCJ. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C o u n s e l f o r M s R o c k m a n a n y t h i n g y o u w a n t t o add or say? UNKNOWN PERSON: S a v e t o e c h o t h e s e n ti m e n t o f o u r l e a d e r D C J . W e d o n o t h a v e a n y th i n g to a d d . W e c o n fi r m t h a t t h e d a t e s a r e s u i t a b l e t o o u r s e lv e s a n d t o - a n d t o M s R o c k m a n p r o v is io n a l ly a s t h e y a r e a n d w e w i ll h e a r fr o m o u r le a d e r i n - i n d u e c o u r s e a s t o w h e t h e r t h o s e d a t e s b e c o m e f i n a l o r n o t. CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y, o k a y. Thank - thank you very much. In t h a t e v e n t th e n w e a r e g o i n g to a d j o u r n p r o c e e d in g s f o r t h e d a y. On M o n d a y w e a r e m e a n t t o c o m m e n c e a t 2 o ’ c l o c k n o t in th e m o r n i n g a s u s u a l . Th e r e is a n a p p lic a ti o n t h a t I w il l b e h e a r i n g a n d t h e r e m a y o r m a y n o t b e o r a l e v i d e n c e a f t e r th a t h e a r i n g . I - I a m n o t s u r e b u t w e a r e n o t s t a r ti n g in t h e m o r n i n g a s u s u a l . S o I t h o u g h t I w o u l d a l s o j u s t in d i c a t e th a t f o r p u r p o s e s o f th e m e d i a a n d th e p u b l ic . W e a d jo u r n . Page 60 of 61 20 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 168 R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 3 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 61 of 61