C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

21 JUNE 2019

D AY 11 7

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
PROCEEDINGS ON 21 JUNE 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

a f te r n o o n

Ms

H o f m e y r,

good

a f te r n o o n

e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A f t e r n o o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar e w e r e a d y ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

We are indeed.

C h a ir, th e r e a r e t w o le g a l

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s w h o ’ d li k e to p l a c e t h e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d i f t h e y m a y.
T h e s e c o n d o f th e m w a n t to r a is e s o m e m a tt e r s f o r y o u r c o n s i d e r a t i o n .
I p r o p o s e t h a t h e b e a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o s o a n d t h e n i f
10

n e c e s s a r y t h e r e ’l l b e a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m .

And then

t h e r e a f te r m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d Ms B u t h e le z i w il l b e p r e s e n ti n g t h e
evidence of Ms Phatudi. Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V J U L I A N K N I G H T: C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V J U L IA N K N I G H T:

M y n a m e is J u li a n K n i g h t , I ’ m a p p e a r in g o n

b e h a l f o f w it n e s s T l a ts a n a w h o ’s b e e n s u m m o n e d t o a p p e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : G o o d a f t e r n o o n , m o r n in g C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I’ m N q a b a y e t h u B u t h e l e z i a p p e a r in g
o n b e h a lf o f Mr B r i a n v a n W y k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’ ll ju s t h a v e to r a i s e y o u r v o i c e .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : M r B r i a n v a n W y k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u ’d l ik e t o r a is e s o m e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
is s u e s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I n d e e d s o , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

F ir s t ly C h a ir, w e w a n t t o b r in g a n

a p p lic a ti o n f o r c o n d o n a t i o n o n s e v e r a l p o i n ts . O n e , f o r n o n c o m p li a n c e
w i t h th e r u l e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n i n th a t it is o u r s u b m is s i o n t h a t w e
w e r e n o t s e r v e d w i t h a n y o f th e n o t ic e s .

N o w M r v a n W y k is a l r e a d y

i m p l ic a t e d b y M r N g w e n y a , I u n d e r s t a n d n o w y e s t e r d a y i t w a s b y M r
P h ir i a n d w e a n tic i p a t e t h a t h e ’l l b e i m p l i c a t e d b y w it n e s s P h a tu d i a n d
10

w i t n e s s T l a t s a n a . N o w w e c a n v a s th e p o i n t t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s a b o u t
t h e s e r v ic e o f th e n o ti c e a n d w e s a y th a t Mr v a n W y k w a s n o t s e r v e d
w i t h th e s e n o tic e s .

T h e q u e r y n o w b e c o m e s th is p o i n t, t h e e m a i l

a d d r e s s t o w h ic h t h e y w e r e s e r v e d i s a n e m a i l a d d r e s s r e c e iv e d f r o m
o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s i n w h a t t h e y s a id w a s t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
b e t w e e n th e m a n d w e d i s p u t e t h e v e r a c i ty o f th a t e m a il a d d r e s s t o s a y
is i t M r v a n W y k ’s e m a i l a d d r e s s , i t ’s a g m a il a c c o u n t a n d t h a t is t h e
o n ly s o u r c e o f t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s .

N o w w h a t t h e c h a l le n g e t h e n

b e c o m e s C h a ir, is t h a t i f in d e e d s o m e b o d y i m p l ic a t e d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t
M r v a n W y k is i m p li c a t e d b y u p to fo u r w i t n e s s e s , I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t
20

o r w o u l d h a v e a n ti c i p a t e d t h a t t h e o w n e r ’s t o e n s u r e t h a t h e r e c e i v e s
t h e n o tic e s w a s m e r e w o u l d g o b e y o n d j u s t s e n d i n g t o a n e m a il a d d r e s s
t h a t y o u y o u r s e lv e s h a v e n e v e r v e r i fi e d n u m b e r o n e .

And nothing

s t o p p e d t h e C o m m i s s io n fr o m e v e n p ic k i n g u p a te l e p h o n e t o s a y, d e a r
M r v a n W y k , c a n y o u g iv e u s y o u r e m a il a d d r e s s ? T h e r e ’s d o c u m e n ts
w e ’ d lik e t o s e r v e o n y o u . Th a t s te p w a s n e v e r t a k e n C h a i r a n d a ll w e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
h a v e is j u s t t h e e v id e n c e a s p r o d u c e d b y M s T la t s a n a .

N o w i t’s n o t

r e l e v a n t a t th is p o in t b u t it w il l b e in th e f u t u r e b e c a u s e th is c o m p a n y
K o r e n e k a t h a t is n o w t h e s u b s ta n c e o f th e d is p u te s w i t h S A E x p r e s s , is
in l i ti g a t i o n in t h e N o r th w e s t H i g h C o u r t u n d e r c a s e n u m b e r M 4 0 /2 1 6
w h e r e t h e p e r s o n s t h a t M s T la t s a n a o r h a v e b e e n s t a te d b y M r
N g w e n y a t o h a v e b e e n i m p l ic a t e d b y Tl a t s a n a , h a v e n o t o r h a v e ta k e n
le g a l a c t io n w i t h r e g a r d s to t h is is s u e .

A n d I’ m n o t s u r e i f t h e

C o m m i s s i o n is a w a r e b u t i t is o u r k n o w l e d g e t h a t M s Tl a ts a n a h e r s e lf is
o u t o n R 5 0 0 0 0 0 b a il o n fr a u d c h a r g e s r e la ti n g t o v e r y s i m il a r is s u e s .
10

N o w w e w a n t t o s a y C h a ir, a n d w e c o m e b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s io n to
s t a te t h a t M r v a n W y k h a s n o t r e c e iv e d n o tic e a n d w e f e e l e x t r e m e
p r e j u d ic e t o t h e e x te n t t h a t w e w il l n o w g o o n t o t h e th ir d w i t n e s s
w i t h o u t u s h a v i n g o n e c o n s i d e r e d a n y o f th e s t a te m e n ts a s p r o d u c e d
a n d t o t h e fo u r t h w i tn e s s w h ic h I u n d e r s ta n d w o u l d b e M s T la ts a n a w h o
h a s v id e o o r v o ic e r e c o r d i n g s o r s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s w h e r e w e
d o n ’t k n o w w h a t th e y s a y.

S o w e s e e k o n e c h a ir, t o b e a ll o w e d t o

c o n s i d e r t h e s ta t e m e n ts o f Mr N g w e n y a , t h e s ta t e m e n ts o f Mr P h ir i
e v e n t h o u g h th a t t h e y n o w h a v e g i v e n t h e ir e v i d e n c e . N u m b e r t w o , i f
t h e C h a ir c a n r u le in o u r r e g a r d to s a y t h e e v id e n c e o f P h a tu d i a n d
20

Tl a ts a n a t o s ta n d d o w n f o r u s t o t h e n s u b m i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n o u r
r e s p o n s e s t o th e ir s t a te m e n t s a s a l l e g e d t o h a v e b e e n s u b m it t e d t o u s
a n d w e u n d e r s t a n d a p p r e c i a t e t h a t t h is n o w c o u l d h a v e t h e e ff e c t o f
d e r a il in g th e s c h e d u li n g a n d e v e r y t h i n g e ls e a r o u n d t h e C o m m is s i o n
b u t C h a ir i f w e t a k e i t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t w e ’v e g o t s o m e b o d y i m p lic a t e d
in t h e w a y t h a t M r v a n W y k is i m p li c a t e d , I th i n k i t’s in th e i n te r e s t o f

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ju s t ic e C h a ir a s a s t a r t in g p o in t a n d i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f t h i s
C o m m i s s i o n C h a ir to a t l e a s t t o b e p l a c e d i n a p o s i t io n w h e r e th e
C o m m i s s i o n c a n c o n s i d e r M r v a n W y k ’s s t a te m e n t b e f o r e p r o c e e d i n g
w i t h t h e s e w i tn e s s e s a s is t h e r u le s o f th e C o m m i s s i o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l h e a r w h a t t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r h a s t o s a y b u t l e t
m e a s k y o u c e r ta in q u e s ti o n s s o t h a t w e c a n s e e w h a t p r o g r e s s w e
make.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u , y o u w o r s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a i d l a s t w e e k , I s a y q u i t e o ft e n in t h is C o m m i s s i o n
10

w e w a n t t o e n s u r e f a ir n e s s t o e v e r y b o d y a n d t h e r e f o r e w e w a n t t o
s tr ik e a b a l a n c e b e t w e e n t h e in t e r e s t o f p e a c e a n d p e r s o n s w h o a r e
i m p l ic a t e d , t h e i n t e r e s t o f w i t n e s s e s , t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e p u b lic , th e
in t e r e s t o f th e C o m m i s s io n w h ic h m u s t f i n is h i t s w o r k w i t h i n a c e r t a i n
s a i d ti m e w h ic h is n o t v e r y l o n g . N o w o n e w e l l in te r ms o f b r i n g i n g a n
a p p lic a ti o n i f y o u w i s h t o , i f Mr v a n W y k w i s h e s t o a p p ly f o r l e a v e f o r
c r o s s - e x a m in e a n y o f t h e w i tn e s s e s i n c l u d i n g t h o s e w h o h a v e a lr e a d y
fi n i s h e d g iv i n g e v i d e n c e t h e r e is a n o p p o r tu n it y to d o s o .

If he was

g iv e n n o t ic e i n te r m s o f r u l e 3 . 3 b u t is o u t s i d e t h e ( i n a u d ib le ) t i m e
p e r i o d , h e c a n a p p ly f o r c o n d o n a ti o n a n d g i v e r e a s o n s i f t h e r e w a s a
20

d e l a y i n h i m a c t u a ll y b e c o m i n g a w a r e h e c a n p u t a l l o f t h a t in .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e a n y p a r t ic u l a r w i t n e s s
is g r a n t e d , h e w o u ld h a v e th a t o p p o r t u n i ty i f h e w i s h e s t o a n d th e n h e
w o u ld h a v e t h e o p p o r tu n it y t o g iv e e v id e n c e h i m s e l f o r to c a l l a n o t h e r
w i t n e s s y o u k n o w a l l o f th a t ju s t n e e d s t o a p p ly, y o u n e e d t o a p p ly f o r

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
le a v e to d o t h a t . N o w o n e o f t h e s u b r u le s i n r u l e 3 o f t h e r u le s o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n m a k e s p r o v is io n th a t i f y o u a s a n i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n fe e l
that you were not given by the Commission or the legal team enough
ti m e b e t w e e n th e d a t e w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h e r u l e 3 .3 n o t ic e a n d t h e
d a t e w h e n th e w i t n e s s g i v e s e v i d e n c e t o a p p l y f o r le a v e t o c r o s s e x a m in e , y o u m a y b r i n g a n a p p lic a ti o n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d f o r
s u c h r e li e v e a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n m a y c o n s id e r w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a t e t o
m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u a r e n o t s e r i o u s l y p r e j u d ic e d b y th a t .

S o th e r e is

t h a t p r o v i s i o n a n d i t’s m e a n t to t a k e c a r e o f s i t u a ti o n s w h e r e p e o p l e g e t
10

r u l e 3 3 n o tic e la t e . S o t h a t is s t il l p o s s i b l e a n d c a n b e d o n e . W h a t h a s
h a p p e n e d s o m e ti m e s is t h a t a w i tn e s s a p e r s o n w h o i s i m p l ic a te d w a s
n o t n o ti fi e d o f a w i t n e s s w h o ’s g o i n g t o c o m e a n d i m p lic a t e o r h e r a n d
in th o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n d i d n ’ t
r e a l ly s e n d a n y t h i n g . I h a v e b e e n i n c l in e d to s a y t h e w i t n e s s s h o u l d w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n t h e e v i d e n c e o f th e w i t n e s s u n t il l a te r w h e n th a t
p e r s o n h a s c a n b e n o ti f ie d o r la s t w e e k I s a i d t h a t t h e w i t n e s s c o u l d
g iv e e v id e n c e b u t l e a v e o u t f o r n o w e v i d e n c e t h a t w o u l d i m p li c a t e a
p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n a n d w i t h a v i e w t h a t a f te r t h a t p e r s o n h a d b e e n g iv e n
a r u l e 3 3 n o tic e t h e n a r r a n g e m e n ts c o u l d b e m a d e f o r th e w i t n e s s t o

20

c o m e b a c k a n d t h e n g iv e e v i d e n c e . I j u s t t h o u g h t I m u s t j u s t g i v e y o u
t h a t fr a m e w o r k .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e m a y b e fr o m i t y o u m i g h t b e a b le t o s a y t o

m e M r v a n W y k a n d y o u r s e lv e s w a n t t o c o o p e r a t e w it h t h e C o m m is s i o n ,
y o u ’r e n o t s e e k i n g t o fr u s tr a t e t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
a n y w a y b u t y o u w o u ld j u s t l ik e a w a y t o b e a c c o m m o d a t e d a n d th e n i f
y o u m i g h t , w e m i g h t b e a b le t o l o o k a t w a y i n w h ic h t h a t c a n b e d o n e .
S o I th o u g h t I m u s t j u s t m e n t io n t h i s fr a m e w o r k b e f o r e I c a n h e a r w h a t
t h e l e g a l t e a m m i g h t s a y.

I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u w a n t to s a y

a n y th in g i n r e s p o n s e t o t h is f r a m e w o r k .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U TH E L E Z I :
t h o s e p o i n ts C h a ir.

Ye s , p l e a s e C h a ir.

I a p p r e c i a te

I t i s n o t o u r in t e n t io n t o s t a l l o r fr u s tr a t e t h e

C o m m i s s i o n i n a n y w a y, o u r b i g g e s t c o n c e r n is a f te r h a v i n g l e a r n e d t h e h o r s e is b o l t e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e o f N g w e n y a a n d th e e v i d e n c e o f
10

P h ir i . Th e b e s t w e c a n d o i n t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s is to c o m e b a c k w i th
a n a p p l ic a ti o n to c r o s s - e x a mi n e o n t h e b a c k o f o u r o w n v e r s i o n w i t h
regards to Phatudi we don’t carry much apprehension towards Phatudi.
T h e c o n c e r n i n th is p a r t ic u l a r i n s t a n c e is t h a t o f Tl a ts a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U TH E L E Z I : W h o m I b e li e v e t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e o f
N g w e n y a a s i t s t a n d s w a s a c o r r o b o r a t i o n o f h e r o w n e v id e n c e b u t ,
s o r r y C h a ir - h a v in g d o n e i t i n r e v e r s e . E x c u s e m e . N o w e w o u l d li k e t o
in p a r tic u la r t h e r e is r e f e r e n c e m a d e t o th i n g s l ik e te le p h o n e r e c o r d i n g s
a n d b e fo r e t h e s e g e t p l a y e d o u t i n th e p u b l ic d o m a i n a s i ts a l l e g e d th e

20

le a s t w e c o u ld a s k i s t o b e g r a n t e d ti m e t o a c t u a ll y v e r i fy th a t is i t
r e a l ly M r v a n W y k , n o b o d y h a d h e a r d M r v a n W y k ’s v o ic e . A n d b e f o r e
t h e C o m m i s s i o n ta k e s o n r e c o r d , w e n e e d t o s a y w e ll l e t t h e m g o a h e a d
a n d l e a d t h a t e v id e n c e , w e ’ ll c o u n te r it a f t e r. B u t w e n e e d t o b e p l a c e d
in a p o s it i o n w h e r e w e c a n b e w i t h c e r t a in ty s a y, t h a t i s M r v a n W y k
a n d th e a u t h e n ti c i ty o f th o s e r e c o r d i n g s c a n th e n b e v e r i f ie d .

Page 7 of 224

So

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
p r a y e r to y o u C h a i r i n th is r e g a r d is to s a y, if t h e C o m m i s s i o n - w e
w o u ld n o t o b je c t t o t h e C o m m i s s io n c o n ti n u i n g w i th P h a t u d i b u t w e
w o u ld a s k t o b e f u r n is h e d w i t h e v e r y t h i n g t h a t r e g a r d s to T l a ts a n a i n
t h e e a r li e s t ti m e p o s s i b l e a n d th e n h a v e a r e t u r n d a t e a s s o o n a s e v e n
n e x t w e e k o r w h e n e v e r t h e C o m m i s s i o n s i ts a g a in . S o w e s t a n d - d o w n
Tl a ts a n a j u s t f o r to d a y f o r u s b e c a u s e t h e is s u e t h a t p r i m a r i ly c o n c e r n s
u s is t h a t s h e ’s g o in g t o le a d i n g e v id e n c e o n v o ic e r e c o r d i n g s a n d
t h o s e v o i c e r e c o r d i n g s a r e m o s t c o n c e r n i n g fo r u s b e c a u s e o n c e t h e
e v i d e n c e i s o u t o n th a t w h e t h e r th e y a r e a u t h e n t ic o r n o t t h e n w e
10

c a n n o t r e v e r s e t h a t p r o c e s s . A n d t h a t is t h e p r e j u d i c e t h a t I a n t ic ip a t e
a n d a m c a u t io n i n g a g a i n s t . Yo u k n o w I w ill n o t c a u s e d i s p e r s i o n s t h e
in t e g r i ty o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n a n y w a y h o w e v e r I w i ll r e v e r t b a c k t o th e
p o i n t s t h a t d i ff ic u l t a s i t is t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s io n , I h a d a
d is c u s s io n w it h M s H o f m e y r e a r li e r w i th r e g a r d s to t h e r e is n ’ t a p r o c e s s
in t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s t o c o m e b a c k w i t h a r e tu r n o f s e r v i c e . H o w e v e r I
w o u ld t h i n k t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e a s t a n d a r d a p p lic a b l e to t h e e x te n t th a t
if s o m e b o d y i s i m p li c a t e d u p to f o u r ti m e s o r b y f o u r w i tn e s s e s th a t a
m e r e p r o v is io n o f h is e m a il a d d r e s s t h a t y o u h a v e n o t v e r i fi e d w i t h t h a t
in d i v i d u a l w o u l d r e q u ir e y o u t o j u s t a s c e r t a i n t h a t i t m a y n o t b o u n c e

20

b a c k a s a n e m a i l s e n t . B u t if i t ’s s e n t to s o m e d o r m a n t e m a il a c c o u n t
t h a t w a s u s e d o r c r e a t e d f o r th a t s p e c i fi c p u r p o s e t h a t h e n o lo n g e r
c h e c k s t h e n w e c a n n o t h o l d it t o b e tr u e t h a t h e r e c e iv e d i t a n d I t h i n k
it m a y a s s is t th e C o m m i s s io n g o in g f o r w a r d t o s a y t h e r e s h o u l d b e
d o u b l e c h e c k s t e p to s a y, s o a n d s o c a n y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h is is y o u r
e m a i l a d d r e s s . T h a t’s a ll a n d t h a t ’s e v e n w h e r e t h a t ’s v i a t e x t o r v i a a

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
p h o n e c a l l a n d w e ’r e s a y i n g i n t h i s in s t a n c e b e fo r e th e C o m m i s s i o n is
s a d d l e d w i t h t a p e r e c o r d i n g s w h i c h w e f i n d a v e r y s u s p ic io u s fo r
r e a s o n s th a t a r e o f i n f e r r e d a n d i n s i n u a t e d t o w a r d s t o s a y t h e r e m a y b e
o th e r m o ti fs a t p l a y h e r e . W e j u s t w a n t t o b e g r a n t e d t h a t o p p o r tu n i ty
t o o n e , w i t n e s s th e s t a t e m e n t a n d li s t e n t o t h e t a p e s a n d t h e n a ll o w th e
C o m m i s s i o n t o p r o c e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ ll h e a r w h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s to s a y a n d t h e n w e c a n
take it from there.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u , C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, ju s t t o d e a l fi r s t o f a ll w i t h t h e f a c t s in
r e l a ti o n t o th e e ff o r ts t h a t w e r e ta k e n b y t h e C o m m is s i o n t o e n s u r e t h a t
r u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s w e r e s e n t t o M r v a n W y k .

I ’d li k e t o g o i n t o th a t in

s o m e d e t a i ls s o t h a t y o u h a v e th o s e f a c ts b e f o r e y o u b u t i n a d v a n c e o f
d o i n g t h a t C h a ir, I’ d lik e t o p ic k u p a p o i n t t h a t m y le a r n e d fr i e n d r a i s e d
a t th e e n d .

H e c o r r e c tly r a is e d th e p o i n t th a t I m a d e t o h i m i n o u r

d is c u s s io n e a r l ie r th a t i t is n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t t h e s e r u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s
20

b e s e r v e d a s t h a t n o t io n a c c o r d s w it h p r o c e s s i n th e c o u r s e o f c iv il
c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s . T h e r e ’s a i m p o r ta n t d i s t i n c ti o n i n o u r r e g u l a ti o n s
o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n b e tw e e n s e r v i c e o f s u m m o n s e s w h i c h m u s t t a k e
p l a c e t h a t’s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e C o m m is s i o n s a c t .

The rules by

c o n tr a s t in r e l a ti o n t o r u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s s i m p ly t a lk a b o u t n o ti f y i n g a n d
C h a ir i n t h a t r e g a r d m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d w a s q u e s ti o n i n g , w e l l w h a t l e v e l

Page 9 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
o f s a tis f a c t io n s h o u l d w e t h e n h a v e .

A n d fo r th a t p u r p o s e C h a ir, I’ d

lik e t o d r a w y o u r a t te n ti o n t o th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r ts d e c is io n in
Sebola.

T h e r e fe r e n c e is 2 0 1 2 5 S A 1 4 2 C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t.

C h a ir,

y o u ’ ll r e c a l l t h a t ’s a d e c is i o n a b o u t S e c ti o n 1 2 9 o f t h e N a t io n a l C r e d it
A c t w h ic h r e q u ir e s c e r t a in n o ti f ic a t i o n t o b e g iv e n t o c o n s u m e r s b y
c r e d i t p r o v i d e r s b e f o r e li ti g a ti o n c a n b e e n g a g e d i n a n d a v e r y s i m i l a r
q u e s t io n a r o u s e t h e r e . W e l l , w h a t l e v e l o f s a t is f a c ti o n m u s t t h e c r e d i t
p r o v i d e r h a v e w h e n i t ’s d e p e n d e n t o n t h i n g s l ik e a p o s t a l s e r v ic e t h a t
m a y o r m a y n o t b e w o r k i n g e tc e t e r a . A n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e u p s h o t o f
10

t h e j u d g e m e n t i n t h a t c a s e i s th a t t h e r e m u s t b e a r e a s o n a b l e g r o u n d s
f o r r e g a r d i n g i t t o b e p r o b a b l e t h a t it w a s r e c e iv e d . I t ’s n o t a s e r v i c e
r e q u ir e m e n t ,

i t ’s

not

r e a s o n a b l e n e s s te s t .

returns

of

s e r v ic e

and

s h e r i ff s ,

it ’s

a

Have enough steps been taken to make it

r e a s o n a b l e to r e g a r d th e r e a s h a v i n g b e e n a d e q u a te n o ti f ic a t i o n .

So

m y s u b m is s io n is t h a t t h a t ’s t h e te s t t h a t s h o u ld fr a m e t h e q u e s ti o n th a t
h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e fo r e y o u a n d w i th t h a t i n m in d I’ d l ik e t o g iv e y o u
t h o s e f a c ts . C h a ir, t h e n o t ic e s w a s s e n t a s my l e a r n e d fr i e n d i n d ic a t e d
t o t h e e m a i l a d d r e s s t h a t w a s u s e d b y Mr v a n W y k i n a ll o f h is
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i th M s T l a t s a n a i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e ir e n g a g e m e n t s
20

a n d i t w a s g le a n e d fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t s th a t h a v e c o m e i n to th e
p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n . A n d t o t h a t e m a i l w a s s e n t n o tic e s , I’l l
g iv e y o u t h e in f o r m a t io n . I n r e l a ti o n t o M r N g w e n y a o n t h e 3 0 t h o f M a y
a t 1 6 h 4 6 i n th e a ft e r n o o n , i n r e l a ti o n t o M s P h a t u d i o n t h e 4 t h o f J u n e
a t 1 2 h 0 4 in th e a f t e r n o o n , in r e l a ti o n t o M r P h ir i o n t h e 6 t h o f J u n e a t
1 5 h 1 8 i n t h e a f t e r n o o n a n d i n r e la t io n t o Ms Tl a ts a n a o n t h e 1 4 t h o f

Page 10 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
J u n e a t 1 5 h 4 4 i n t h e a f t e r n o o n . T h e r e w e r e n o n o n e d e l iv e r y m e s s a g e s
r e c e i v e d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n p u r s u a n t to t h o s e e m a i ls b e i n g s e n t o u t .
C h a ir, I ’ m a l s o i n f o r m e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s w h o a r e w i t h u s to d a y in
t h e h e a r in g t h a t n u m e r o u s a t te m p t s o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n
h a v e b e e n m a d e t o c o n t a c t Mr v a n W y k i n c l u d i n g a t t h e t i m e t h a t w e
w e r e p r e p a r i n g t h e r u l e 3 3 n o ti c e s i n o r d e r t o e s ta b lis h t h a t e m a i l
a d d r e s s . F o r p r i v a c y r e a s o n s I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o r e a d a l l o f t h e m b u t s ix
d i ff e r e n t p h o n e n u m b e r s a s s o c ia t e d w i t h M r v a n W y k fr o m th e p u b li c
r e c o r d s t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n c o u l d a c c e s s w e r e p h o n e d r e p e a t e d l y b y
10

the

i n v e s ti g a to r s

of

th e

C o m m is s i o n .

C h a ir,

it

is

in

those

c ir c u m s ta n c e s th a t w e p r o c e e d e d w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r N g w e n y a a n d
M r P h ir i .

A n d i t is m y s u b m i s s i o n th a t w e s h o u l d c o n t in u e w i th t h e

e v i d e n c e o f M s P h a t u d i a n d M s Tl a ts a n a t o d a y.

So let me deal with

t h a t a s p e c t . W h y d o w e c o n ti n u e t o d a y d e s p i t e a n is s u e h a v in g b e e n
r a i s e d t h is m o r n i n g a n d a c o n t e n t i o n t h a t th e r e h a s n o t b e e n r e c e ip t
d e s p i te a l l o f t h o s e s t e p s b e i n g ta k e n .

C h a ir, i t ’s m y s u b m is s io n w e

c o n ti n u e b e c a u s e a s I . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s h o u l d h a v e a s k e d M r B u t h e l e z i b u t I r a is e th is w i t h
y o u s o y o u c a n a d d r e s s i t a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f n e e d b e y o u c a n a d d r e s s i t l a t e r. H e d i d n ’ t I d o n ’ t
r e m e m b e r th a t h e to l d m e w h a t a s a m a t t e r o f fa c t is th e r e l a ti o n s h i p
b e t w e e n th e c u r r e n t r e la t io n s h ip b e t w e e n Mr v a n W y k a n d th e e m a i l
a d d r e s s th a t w a s u s e d .

D o e s it r e m a i n h is b u t h e d o e s n ’ t c h e c k i t ?

D o e s it n o w b e lo n g t o s o m e b o d y e ls e ? S o I d i d n ’ t a s k h i m t o a d d r e s s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t o d e a l w i t h t h a t s o h e w il l d e a l , I ’l l a s k h i m w h e n h e r e s p o n d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d if i t ’s n e c e s s a r y I’ ll m a k e s u b m is s i o n

t h e r e a f te r. I w o u l d h o w e v e r a t t h i s p o i n t m a k e th e s u b m i s s i o n t h a t t h e
t e s t i s , w a s i t r e a s o n a b l e f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n t o a s s u m e t h a t t h e
n o t i fic a ti o n r e q u ir e d u n d e r t h e r u l e s h a v e b e e n g i v e n a n d i t is m y
s u b m is s io n to y o u g iv e n t h o s e fa c ts t h a t th e r e w a s n o n o t i fic a ti o n o r
any step that was not taken that should have been taken nor an
10

in d i c a t o r t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n s h o u l d h a v e d o n e m o r e th a n w h a t i t d i d .
A n d i n t h o s e c i r c u ms t a n c e s it w il l b e o u r s u b m is s io n w h a t e v e r M r v a n
W y k ’s r e l a t i o n s h i p t o t h e e m a il a d d r e s s i s th a t w e a r e e n t i tl e d t o
p r o c e e d w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e . A n d I’ d l ik e .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s j u s t t h a t i f h e h a s a c e r t a in r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h th e
email.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t m a k e it d i ff i c u l t f o r h i m t o c o n t in u e t o

c o m p la i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I f i t ’s a n o th e r r e l a ti o n s h ip , y o u m ig h t f e e l y e t h e c a n
s t il l c o m p l a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir, a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g . Ye s , b u t t h a t ’s
t h e r e a s o n b e h in d t h e q u e r y, j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O f c o u r s e C h a ir.

Page 12 of 224

The high watermark of his

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
a r g u m e n t h o w e v e r I s u b m i t w h a t e v e r t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p i s is t o h a v e t o
r e s p o n d to w h e t h e r th e s t e p s w e r e r e a s o n a b le o r n o t a n d I s u b m i t n o
m a t t e r w h a t t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p is , t h e s te p s t a k e n b y t h e C o m m is s i o n
w e r e r e a s o n a b le . A n d C h a ir, i f I m a y t h e r e ’s a g r e a t e r s i g n i fi c a n c e t o
t h e s e p o i n ts a n d i t ’s a p o in t t h a t C h a ir y o u m a d e in y o u r d e b a t e w i t h
m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d .

Th is C o m m i s s io n h a s a li m i t e d t i m e i n w h i c h t o

c o m p le t e i ts w o r k , i t c a n n o t p o s s i b l e b e i n a p o s it i o n w h e r e d e s p i te
t a k i n g r e a s o n a b l e s t e p s w i t n e s s e s c a n a r r iv e o n t h e d a y o f e v i d e n c e
and say it cannot proceed.
10

Th e r e is a b a la n c e a s y o u ’v e s a i d

r e p e a t e d ly C h a ir b u t a g a in s t th e s e f a c ts w e s u b mi t t h a t b a l a n c e m u s t
s t a n d in f a v o u r o f th e e v i d e n c e p r o c e e d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e , I t h i n k i n t h e c a s e t h a t c a m e u p la s t
w e e k i n v o lv i n g M s Tl a ts a n a a n d M s J i b a . I th i n k i t w a s a fa c t i f I r e c a l l
c o r r e c t ly th a t M s J ib a h a d n o t b e e n e v e n i n fo r m e d y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e
w a s s o m e b o d y w h o w a s g o in g to g i v e e v id e n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e r e w a s , i t w a s n ’t t h e l e g a l te a m s c a s e t h a t

t h e y h a d t a k e n a n u m b e r o f s t e p s to t r y a n d b r in g t h e s e f a c t s to t h e
f a c t o f a w it n e s s c o m i n g u p t o g iv e e v i d e n c e i m p l ic a t i n g h e r t o h e r
20

a tt e n ti o n a n d s o o n .

S o y o u s a y t h is i s a c a s e w h e r e t h e le g a l t e a m

a n d th e C o m m i s s io n h a v e d o n e e v e r y r e a s o n a b l e , h a v e t a k e n e v e r y
reasonable step.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

To t r y a n d m a k e s u r e th a t M r v a n W y k g e t s th e r u l e

3 3 n o ti c e a n d i f d e s p i t e t h o s e s te p s h e d i d n ’ t g e t i t th a t d o e s n ’ t m e a n

Page 13 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h a t th e r e ’s b e e n n o c o m p li a n c e w i t h th e r u l e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir, t h e n j u s t t o d e a l w i t h th e q u e s t i o n o f
p r e j u d ic e b e c a u s e t h a t’s u l ti m a t e ly w h a t t h is d e b a te m u s t b e a b o u t . A s
I u n d e r s t a n d m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d s u b m is s io n , t h e p r i n c ip le p r e j u d i c e
r e l a t e s to a r e c o r d i n g t h a t i s g o i n g t o b e p l a y e d in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e
e v i d e n c e t h is a ft e r n o o n . C h a ir, i f M r v a n W y k d is p u t e s t h a t i t i s h i m i n
t h a t r e c o r d i n g th a t h e w a s t h e r e a t t h e ti m e , t h a t v e r s io n c a n b e p u t u p
10

t o t h i s C o m m is s i o n in d u e c o u r s e i n a n y a ffi d a v i t th a t h e w is h e s t o
present.

A n d o n t h e q u e s t i o n o f c o n d o n a ti o n , I s h o u ld g o o n r e c o r d

and

as

say

condonation.

a

le g a l

team

we

would

certainly

not

oppose

any

I t is in t h e in t e r e s t o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n t h a t w e f i n d o u t

w h a t t h e t r u e f a c ts a r e , w e w a n t to h e a r it is o u r s u b m is s i o n f r o m
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s .

M r v a n W y k c a n p u t o n a ffi d a v i t i n d u e c o u r s e

w h e t h e r h e m a k e s a n a p p l ic a ti o n to c r o s s - e x a m in e M s T la t s a n a o r o t h e r
w i t n e s s e s o r w h e t h e r h e s i m p ly w is h e s to p l a c e h is v e r s io n b e f o r e t h is
C o m m i s s i o n . H e c a n s e t o u t t h e p r e c is e g r o u n d s o n w h ic h h e d i s p u t e s
it , w e c a n c o n s i d e r i t a t a s le g a l t e a m a n d w e c a n m a k e s u b m is s io n s i n
20

d u e c o u r s e a n d e v e n a p p r o a c h y o u C h a ir t o s u m m o n s h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To g iv e fu r t h e r e v i d e n c e i n d u e c o u r s e in th e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s . S o o n th e q u e s t io n o f p r e j u d ic e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e s u b m i t M r v a n W y k ’s v e r s io n t h a t is w h a t

Page 14 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
f a ir n e s s i s a b o u t . I t’s a b o u t g iv in g p e o p l e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to b e h e a r d .
T h e r e ’s n o s e n s e i n w h ic h Mr v a n W y k w ill n o t b e h e a r d in t h e
processes of the Commission.

I f h e f o l l o w s t h e r u l e s e v e n w i th th e

n e c e s s it y o f c o n d o n a ti o n , i f h e p u ts

h is v e r s i o n

u p i t w i ll b e

in t e r r o g a t e d a s a l l v e r s io n s a r e i n te r r o g a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h o s e a r e o u r s u b m is s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr B u t h e le z i , d o y o u w a n t t o s ta r t w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n

t h a t I d id n ’t a s k y o u e a r l ie r ?
10

A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I n d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : Mr v a n W y k ’s v e r s i o n w i th r e g a r d s t o
t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s is t h a t i t ’s a n a b a n d o n e d e m a i l a d d r e s s th a t h e i s n o
lo n g e r u s in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s t h a t m e a n i t r e m a in s h i s e m a il a d d r e s s b u t h e

d o e s n ’t u s e i t a n y m o r e ?
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U TH E L E Z I :

T h a t ’s w h a t I ’v e b e e n l e d to

u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV

N Q A B AY E T H U

BUTHELEZI:

And

t h e r e ’s

been

years

( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e , s o i t’s s ti ll o p e r a ti o n a l b u t ?
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I ’d s a y i t ’s d o r m a n t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mm?
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s a d o r ma n t e m a i l a d d r e s s .

Page 15 of 224

...

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , d o e s i t r e c e iv e e m a ils ?

W e ll , fr o m w h a t I’ m

h e a r in g i t l o o k s li k e i t m a y h a v e r e c e iv e d i t t h e e m a i ls b u t t h e m a y o r
m a y n o t h a v e c o m e t o h i s a t t e n t io n b e c a u s e fr o m w h a t y o u s a y h e h a s
a b a n d o n e d it .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

B y w a y o f i ll u s tr a ti o n C h a ir, h o w

s o m e o f t h e s e th in g s w o r k j u s t n o t e v e n a n a lo g y b u t p r a c ti c a lly.

Yo u

s o m e t i m e s w i ll s e t u p l e t s a y e v e n a g m a i l a c c o u n t , f o r g e t th e p a s s w o r d
a n d n e v e r g o a r o u n d t o r e c ti fy a n d r e m e m b e r i n g t h e p a s s w o r d . A n d if i t
w a s c r e a t e d f o r a s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e a t a s p e c i f ic ti m e , y o u th e n a b a n d o n
10

it . W h e r e I b r i n g i t b a c k t o C h a ir is h e r e , i s th a t m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d h e r e
s t a te s t h a t t h e y t o o k r e a s o n a b l e s te p s a n d w e s a y th e r e w a s n o
r e a s o n a b l e s te p s .

L e t ’s s t a r t t h i s p o i n t , M r N g w e n y a w h o is a f o r m e r

e m p l o y e r o f M r v a n W y k h a s fa r m o r e p e r s o n a l in f o r m a t io n o r t h e
d o m i c i li u m o f M r N g w e n y a - o f M r v a n W y k s o r r y, a n d o th e r d e ta il s
w h e r e h e ’s e a s i ly c o n ta c t a b l e . N o w . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a w i t n e s s a n o t h e r w it n e s s .
ADV

N Q A B AY E T H U

B U T H E L E Z I:

No,

I’ m

s a y in g

they

were

c o l l a b o r a ti n g w it h th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s t h e y c o u ld h a v e e a s i ly c r o s s
r e fe r e n c e d th e c o r r e c tn e s s o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n a s to s a y if t h is p e r s o n is
20

a f o r m e r e m p l o y e e , w h a t d e t a i ls d o y o u h a v e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y s a y th e y h a v e , t h e y g o t u p to s ix n u m b e r s . I
d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e a ll c e ll p h o n e n u m b e r s o r l a n d li n e a n d
c e l l p h o n e n u m b e r s w h ic h t h e y ’v e tr i e d .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I:

T h e q u e s t io n b e c o m e s fr o m w h o

tr i e d . F r o m w h o C h a ir ?

Page 16 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON: Mm?
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : W h e r e d o t h e y r e c e i v e t h e m f r o m ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , I’ m s u r e th e y c a n g iv e y o u a l l t h o s e n u m b e r s i f
y o u w a n t.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I : B u t t h e p o i n t a n d t h a t ’s t h e p o i n t I’ m
g o i n g t o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

T h e p o i n t I’ m g o i n g t o is th a t y o u

c a n - i t ’s n o t s u ffi c i e n t t o s a y w e tr ie d s ix n u m b e r s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
A D V N Q A B AY E T H U B U T H E L E Z I :

W e n e e d t o h a v e tr i e d s i x n u m b e r s

fr o m c r e d i b le s o u r c e s t h a t m a k e i t p r o b a b l e t h a t t h e s e n u m b e r s a r e
y o u r s . S o o n t h e s e t w o p o i n ts , o n e t h a t t h is e m a il t h a t t h e y s e n t i t to ,
t h e n e v e r v e r i fi e d o r c r o s s r e f e r e n c e d w h e t h e r it ’s s ti ll a c tiv e , t h e y
r e c e i v e d i t fr o m c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d t h e y p ic k i t u p o n li n e a n d t h e y
t a k e n o f u r t h e r s te p s t o .. . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: Well I – I do not know m uch about technology …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u n o l o n g e r w a n t p e o p l e t o u s e a n e m a il
20

a d d r e s s th a t i s s te a li n g y o u r n a m e a r e y o u n o t s u p p o s e d to t a k e s t e p s
t h a t w i ll m a k e s u r e p e o p l e c a n n o t u s e i t t o c o m m u n ic a te w i t h y o u ?
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I n d e e d s o C h a ir. H o w e v e r t h e o n ly s o u r c e
a n d t h e o n ly p e r s o n th e c o m m u n i c a t io n t h u s f a r - b a s e d o n w h a t w e
k n o w – th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o n l y h a p p e n e d w i t h Tl a ts a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 17 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: S o i f t h e r e la ti o n s h i p b r e a k d o w n …
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n

M r v a n W y k a n d t h e e m a il a d d r e s s …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t i t is a n a b a n d o n e d e m a il a d d r e s s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I n d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d i t s e e m s to m e t h a t i t i s

a c c e p te d th a t i t i s h is e m a i l a d d r e s s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e o n ly d i ffe r e n c e is t h a t a s fa r a s h e i s c o n c e r n e d
it i s a b a n d o n e d b u t i t s e e m s fr o m w h a t I h e a r fr o m t h e l e g a l t e a m i t
s e e m s li k e i t s til l r e c e iv e s e m a ils . T h a t is w h y I a s k e d y o u t h e q u e s ti o n
w h e t h e r i f y o u h a v e a n e m a il a d d r e s s a n d y o u n o lo n g e r w a n t p e o p le t o
u s e i t t o c o m m u n ic a t e w i t h y o u th e r e is n o t s o m e th i n g y o u a r e
supposed

to

do

to

make

sure

nobody

can

use

th a t

email

to

c o m m u n ic a te w i th y o u b e c a u s e i f t h e r e i s s u c h a w a y t h e n M r v a n W y k
w o u ld o n l y h a v e h i m s e l f to b la m e i f p e o p l e c o n t i n u e t o u s e t h a t e m a il
a d d r e s s t o c o m m u n ic a te w i t h h i m a n d h e d o e s n o t s e e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
t h a t i s s e n t t o h i m b e c a u s e h e – h e d o e s n o t c h e c k t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s
20

anymore.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E:

I a m w i th y o u C h a ir o n t h a t l i n e o f

t h i n k i n g t o a c e r t a i n p o i n t a n d t h e n I a b a n d o n y o u C h a ir. W h a t y o u –
t h e p r o p o s i t io n t h a t y o u p u t C h a ir w i t h r e g a r d s t o h o w t h i s e m a i l w o u ld
b e m a n a g e d i s c o r r e c t.
W h e r e t h e r e I th e n w a n t t o a b a n d o n y o u C h a ir is t h i s p o i n t :

Page 18 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
is th e s o u r c e o f w h e r e t h is e m a i l a d d r e s s c o m e s fr o m i s - i s
p r o b le m a t ic fo r t h e C o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e i f i t is c o m in g f r o m a p e r s o n
w h o is i m p l ic a ti n g Mr v a n W y k a n d i t i s b e i n g g le a n e d fr o m a ll e g e d
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h ic h i s n o w b e in g p r e s e n t e d t o y o u C h a ir a f a c t to
s a y w e h a v e e m a i ls w h e r e th e y c o r r e s p o n d e d a n d th e v e r a c i ty o f t h o s e
e m a i ls w h e t h e r t h e y a r e a u th e n t ic o r n o t h a s n o t b e e n s u b je c t e d – h a s
n o t b e e n s u b je c t e d t o th e l e g a l p r o c e s s C h a ir a n d w e a r e n o w b e i n g
t o l d t h is i s a le g it i m a t e e m a il a d d r e s s b a s e d o n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
between
10

th e

p a r t ie s

on

evidence

that

is

not

C o m m i s s i o n y e t C h a i r to s a y is t h is c o r r e c t o r n o t .

a d mi t t e d

in

this

T h a t is t h e fi r s t

point.
T h e s e c o n d p o in t C h a i r is t h a t w e th e n n e e d t o l o o k a t t h e
ti m e w h e n th is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o o k p la c e .

I f I – li k e w e s a y i t is a n

a b a n d o n e d e m a il a d d r e s s o r h o w ( i n d is t in c t) w e l l t h e r e n e e d s to b e a
s e c o n d f o r m o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m s o m e o n e e l s e w h o c a n th e n s a y I
t o o c o r r e s p o n d e d w i th v a n W y k o n t h is a d d r e s s a n d I a m s a y i n g t h e
s u b m is s io n s t h a t w e a c c e p t a s t r u e e v e r y t h in g t h a t c o m e s fr o m
Tl a ts a n a I th i n k i s p r e m a t u r e . W e a r e n o t t h e r e y e t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e r e is a n e m a il a d d r e s s …
20

M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t I a m to l d w a s u s e d t o s e n d th e R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e s
to Mr van Wyk.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B a s e d o n w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s is

M r v a n W y k ’s e m a il a d d r e s s …

Page 19 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I n d e e d s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
in s t r u c t e d

he

And from what you say or what you have been
did

not

receive

th e

Rule

3.3

N o t ic e s

from

the

Commission.
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n s a y s t h e y w e r e

s e n t t o t h a t e m a i l a d d r e s s a n d t h e r e w a s n o th i n g th a t t h e l e g a l
r e c e i v e d b a c k t o s a y it w a s r e je c t e d o r t h e n o tic e s w e r e n o t r e c e iv e d
in t o t h e e m a il – e m a i l – in t o t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s .
S o y o u s a y in s u p p o r t o f t h e p r o p o s i t io n t h a t Mr v a n W y k d id

10

n o t r e c e iv e t h e e m a il y o u s a y b u t y o u p e o p l e u s e d a n a b a n d o n e d
a d d r e s s – a n e m a i l a d d r e s s a n d a ll th a t a m o u n ts t o is i t i s a n e m a il
a d d r e s s th a t b e l o n g s to M r v a n W y k b u t w h ic h h e h a s c h o s e n n o t t o
check anymore …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e d i ffi c u l ty I h a v e w i t h t h a t is i f a n y b o d y

c h o o s e s t o – n o l o n g e r to u s e a n e m a i l a d d r e s s th a t s ti ll r e m a in s
a v a i la b le t o p e o p l e to u s e th e n h e c a n n o t c o m p l a i n if p e o p le u s e it .
That – that is where I come in.
20

address.

I t is c o m m o n c a u s e i t i s h i s e m a il

T h e l e g a l t e a m s a y s t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e s w e r e s e n t to t h a t

email address.
A s I u n d e r s ta n d i t y o u a r e n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o d i s p u t e t h a t i t
was sent …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y - y o u s a y m y c l ie n t n e v e r – d o e s n o t

Page 20 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
c h e c k t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s a n y m o r e b e c a u s e h e c o n s i d e r s it a b a n d o n e d .
S o t h e q u e s ti o n is a s lo n g a s i t r e m a in s a v a il a b l e f o r p e o p le t o
c o m m u n ic a te w i t h h i m h e c a n n o t c o m p l a i n if t h e n o t ic e s w e r e s e n t t o it .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I c a n a c c e p t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d th a t ?
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I a m w i th y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o u n le s s t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g e ls e m y in c li n a ti o n
w o u ld b e t o a l lo w t h e e v i d e n c e to c o n t in u e b u t i f y o u o r M r v a n W y k
w i s h e s t o a p p ly f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e y o u – y o u s h o u l d f e e l fr e e
10

t o d o t h a t . H e s h o u l d f e e l fr e e t o d o th a t a n d t h e a p p l ic a ti o n w o u l d b e
lo o k e d

i n to

in

due

course

and

he

w i ll

–

if

g r a n te d

le a v e

to

c r o s s - e x a m in e – b e a b le t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e th e w it n e s s e s i n r e s p e c t o f
w h o m h e w il l g e t l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I a m i n d e b t e d t o y o u C h a ir. I t h i n k w h a t
w e w a n te d t o b e is t o b e b r o u g h t o n – o n s id e w it h r e g a r d s to o u r o w n
n o n - c o m p li a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: W i t h b r in g in g a ll t h e a p p l ic a t i o n s t h a t a r e
n e c e s s a r y t o e it h e r to b r in g o u r o w n e v id e n c e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: O r t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e e tc e te r a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: S o w i t h y o u r c o n d o n a ti o n C h a ir w e a s k t o
b e – t o b r in g a ll t h o s e a p p l ic a ti o n s a s w e l l a s t h e ( in d is ti n c t) b u t w h e r e
w e a r e s h o r t n o w C h a ir is t h a t w h a t is th e p r o c e s s n o w i f w e a l le g e t h a t

Page 21 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
w e d o n o t h a v e th e s e n o t ic e s to t h e n r e c e i v e th e s e d o c u m e n ts C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i f y o u – i f – if f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n it is

c o n v e n i e n t f o r y o u t o o b ta i n a ll o f t h o s e n o ti c e s t o d a y …
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In s t e a d o f g o in g to c h e c k o n t h e e m a il a d d r e s s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s u r e t h e l e g a l te a m w il l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o

m a k e s u r e y o u – y o u a r e g iv e n a l l t h e n o t ic e s a n d e v e r y th i n g t h a t w a s
s e n t t o th a t e m a i l a d d r e s s .
10

M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: T h a t is t h e o n ly r e q u e s t . W e j u s t a s k t o
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E:

To p r o v i d e t h e m w it h a d i ff e r e n t e m a i l

address …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: F o r th e m t o b e r e s e n t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No I am sure that – I am sure that can be

a r r a n g e d , ja .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: O k a y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t c a n b e a r r a n g e d .

Ms Hofmeyr does hear and

s h e h a s g o t c o l le a g u e s h e r e . S o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h th e m . T h e y
w i ll a c c o m m o d a t e y o u .
M R N Q A B AY E T H U M K H I Z E: I a m i n d e b te d t o y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . M s H o f m e y r I d o n o t t h i n k y o u w a n t
to say anything?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

We are indebted to you for your

ruling …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s B u t h e l e z i w i ll c o n t in u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O u r w i tn e s s fo r t o d a y i s M s P h a t u d i . S h e is
the current CFO at North West …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r v o ic e is a t i ts l o w e s t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I w i ll d o m y b e s t t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u r n e x t w i t n e s s i s M s K u tl w a n o In g r id P h a t u d i?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . I t is M s K u tl w a n o In g r id P h a tu d i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

She

is

the

current

CFO

North

West

D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i ty, S a f e t y a n d Tr a n s p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

S h e w il l b e g iv e n u s th e d e p a r t m e n t ’s

v e r s i o n o n t h e S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t
r e l a ti n g t o t h e a g r e e m e n t i n q u e s ti o n . M a y I a s k th a t t h e w i tn e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B e s w o r n i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

My

name

is

K u tl w a n o I n g r i d P h a t u d i .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
10

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l
g iv e w i ll b e th e t r u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h i f s o
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e lp m e G o d .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: S o h e l p m e G o d .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: ( d u l y s w or n , s t a t e s )
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . B e f o r e p r o c e e d I h a d h a d in m i n d t h a t w e
w o u ld t a k e l u n c h a t t h e n o r m a l t i m e w h ic h is 1 o ’ c lo c k b u t w e h a v e h a d
s o m e d e l a y.

I t w o u ld b e b e t t e r t h a t w e f in is h w i t h Ms P h a t u d i I th i n k

b e f o r e w e t a k e t h e lu n c h b r e a k . S o th a t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k w e c a n g o
20

in t o t h e n e x t w i t n e s s . S o I a m – I s e e h e r s t a te m e n t i s 1 0 9 p a g e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I i m a g i n e th a t w e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o fi n i s h – w h a t –
in 3 0 m i n u t e s – 4 5 m i n u t e s ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . 4 5 m i n u t e s to a n h o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t l e a s t n o t l a t e r. N o t m o r e t h a n a n h o u r.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : N o t m o r e t h a n h o u r. I w i ll tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , a t le a s t l e t u s s e e w h e t h e r w e c a n f in is h b y

m a y b e h a lf p a s t …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O n e .
CHAIRPERSON: One.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f w e h a v e n o t f in is h e d b y t h e n w e w i ll ta k e t h e lu n c h
b r e a k a n y w a y. I s t h a t f in e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s n o t e d C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir t h e a ffi d a v i t o f Ms …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s – M s P h a t u d i I h a v e ju s t c h a n g e d t h e l u n c h – t h e
lu n c h a r r a n g e m e n t. I s i t f in e w i t h y o u o r w e r e y o u h a v i n g s o m e p l a n s
for lunch?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: N o it i s o k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is o k a y. A lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u . L e t u s g o a h e a d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a ir th e a ffi d a v i t o f Ms P h a t u d i is o n

E X H I B I T D D 7 . C h a ir t h e r e a r e s o m e – t h e r e i s a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in in g Ms P h a t u d i ’s s ta t e m e n t
20

w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 7 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a ir t h e r e i s a s t a t e m e n t o f t h e c u r r e n t

H O D f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t N o r t h W e s t. I t is th e s ta t e m e n t o f
M s M o fo k e n g th a t h a s b e e n a d d e d t o th is b u n d l e . W e d o n o t i n t e n d t o

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
c a l l o r a l e v id e n c e fo r t h is w i t n e s s .

S h e is m e r e l y c o r r o b o r a ti n g th e

evidence of Ms Phatudi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a t is f in e . A t s o m e s t a g e w e w i ll n e e d t o
– y o u w i ll n e e d to r e a d o u t i m p o r ta n t f e a t u r e s o f t h e a ffi d a v i t s o th a t i f
w e a r e n o t g o in g to le a d h e r e v id e n c e o r u s e h e r e v id e n c e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e w il l d o s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t t h e p u b lic h a s a n i d e a w h a t s h e o r h e w a s

g o i n g t o s a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o s o C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

M s P h a t u d i w o u ld y o u p l e a s e t u r n

to

EXHIBIT DD7 page 1.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

D o y o u c o n f i r m t h a t is t h e a ff id a v i t y o u

m a d e f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I c o n f i r m t h a t t h i s is t h e a ff id a v i t I
s u b m i tt e d t o t h e C o m m is s i o n C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d y o u c o n f ir m t h a t th e s ig n a tu r e o n p a g e
1 0 o f t h is d o c u m e n t i s y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I c o n fir m t h a t th e s i g n a tu r e o n

p a g e 1 0 o f t h e a ffi d a v it is m i n e C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

A r e t h e r e a n y c o r r e c t io n s t h a t y o u

w o u ld lik e to m a k e o n t h is a ff i d a v i t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir. O n m y a ffi d a v i t o n p o i n t
17.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P a r a g r a p h 1 7 o r p a r a g r a p h – p a r a g r a p h …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: J a . P a g e 4 - p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o n p a g e
4. The sentence reads:
“As

per

SLA the

department

was

to

make

a

p r e p a y m e n t s u b s i d y t o t h e v a l u e o f 11 2 m i lli o n
r e l a ti n g t o 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5 f in a n c i a l y e a r. ”
I t s h o u l d b e 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 f in a n c ia l y e a r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o w e c h a n g e 2 0 1 4 t o r e fl e c t 2 0 1 5 …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d th e n 2 0 1 5 t o b e 2 0 1 6 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 :
“The

department

r e c e iv e d

an

i n v o ic e

fr o m

SA

E x p r e s s v a l u e d a t 5 1 m il li o n . ”
T h i s s h o u l d b e – t h e 5 1 m il li o n s h o u l d b e – s h o u l d r e a d 5 0
m il li o n a n d t h e c o r r e c t i n v o i c e w a s p r o v i d e d o r h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

Th e r e is a n in v o ic e a t t a c h e d a s

A n n e x u r e K P 3 o n p a g e 6 5 o f y o u r – y o u r a ffi d a v it . C h a ir, m a y I r e q u e s t
20

t h a t t h a t in v o ic e b e e x c h a n g e d fo r t h e c o r r e c t i n v o ic e ? A n n e x u r e K P 3
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s , y e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

I h a v e n u m b e r e d th is in v o ic e a s – a s p e r

what is on Annexure KP3.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

O k a y.

Th e o th e r c o r r e c ti o n is o n

p a r a g r a p h 3 8 . T h e a m o u n t s ta t e d o n th e fi r s t li n e :
“ Va lo t e c k is s u e d t h e ir f ir s t i n v o i c e o f 1 5 . 0 6 . ”
Is a c t u a l ly 1 5 8 5 0 . S o t h is w a s a n e r r o r b u t th e – t h e a t t a c h e d in v o ic e
is o f t h e c o r r e c t a m o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t 1 5 8 5 0 0 0 0 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e la s t c o r r e c t io n is o n p a r a g r a p h
10

3 9 . T h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e th e r e s a y s :
“ Va lo t e c k w a s a p p o in t e d t o d o g r o u n d h a n d li n g
s e r v ic e s s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 6 . ”
W e w a n t to a d d t h e m o n t h t h e r e . I t is s o m e ti m e in J u n e 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a r a - w h a t p a r a g r a p h d i d y o u s a y t h a t i t is ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I t is p a r a g r a p h 3 9 C h a ir th e f ir s t

s e n te n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t t e l l m e w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a b o u t t h a t .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e f ir s t – t h e f ir s t s e n te n c e r e a d s :
“ Va lo t e c k w a s a p p o in t e d t o d o g r o u n d h a n d li n g
s e r v ic e s s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 6 . ”

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

t h e c o r r e c ti o n th a t w e a r e m a k i n g

is t h a t :
“ Va lo t e c k w a s a p p o in t e d t o d o g r o u n d h a n d li n g
s e r v ic e s s o m e t i m e i n J u n e 2 0 1 6 . ”

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
W e m is s e d th e m o n th t h e r e . S o w e a r e p u t ti n g t h a t in .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

T h e s e a r e a l l th e c o r r e c t io n s t h a t

w e w o u l d li k e t o m a k e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u Ms P h a tu d i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u – y o u w i ll p r e p a r e a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t
…
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t a k e c a r e o f t h a t.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o s o C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ms P h a t u d i w o u l d y o u p l e a s e g i v e u s y o u r

c r e d e n t ia ls , y o u r q u a l i fi c a t io n s a n d t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u c u r r e n t ly
hold?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
q u a li fi c a t io n s :

Thank

you

C h a ir.

My

I h a v e a B C o m D e g r e e a n d m a j o r s u b j e c ts w e r e

a c c o u n t in g a n d m a n a g e m e n t .

F u r t h e r t o t h a t I a ls o d i d a M a s t e r ’s i n

B u s i n e s s A d m i n i s t r a t io n – t h e fi n a n c e s tr e a m . M y c u r r e n t o c c u p a t io n is
I a m t h e C F O fo r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i t y, S a f e t y a n d Tr a n s p o r t
20

Management in the Department of North West.
I s t a r t e d – I h e ld t h is p o s it i o n s i n c e J u l y 2 0 1 3 t o d a t e .
B e f o r e I w a s a p p o in t e d a s C F O I h e l d t h e p o s i t io n o f D ir e c t o r Fi n a n c e
in t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t f r o m 2 0 0 9 t o J u ly 2 0 1 3 . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u a n d w h o d o y o u c u r r e n t ly r e p o r t
to?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I c u r r e n t ly r e p o r t M s B A M o f o k e n g
a n d s h e – I s t a r te d to r e p o r t t o h e r fr o m 1 A p r il 2 0 1 7 to d a t e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: B e f o r e I r e p o r t e d t o M r B u t i C h u m a
w h o w a s A c t in g H O D fr o m 2 2 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 t o 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 .

Before

M r C h u m a i t w a s M r ( i n d is t in c t) w h o w a s a ls o a c t i n g a s H e a d o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t fr o m 1 A p r il 2 0 1 6 t o 2 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 .
M s ( i n d is t in c t) a c t e d f o r a f e w d a y s fr o m 1 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 t o
3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d th e n b e fo r e t h a t – b e f o r e t h e a c t i n g p o s i ti o n s i t w a s
10

M r B a i le y M a h la k o l e n g w h o w a s h e H e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t fr o m 2 0 1 3
to March 2016.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

S o a t t h e ti m e o f c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d y o u r d e p a r t m e n t.

Mr Magkuleng

was the HOD.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

Mr Magkuleng was the

H O D a t th e ti m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d o n p a r a g r a p h 6 y o u d e a l w i th w h a t
20

y o u r p o s i ti o n a s C F O e n t a i ls .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B r ie f ly p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

O k a y.

C h a ir a s th e C F O I – I

o v e r s e e t h e g e n e r a l fi n a n c i a l m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h is
in c l u d e s b u t n o t l i m i te d t o s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t , b u d g e ts a n d

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
expenditure management.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e
t h e C o m m i s s io n is t o e n li g h te n u s a s t o h o w t h e d e p a r t m e n t e n d e d u p
h a v i n g th is c o n tr a c t w i t h S o u th A f r i c a n E x p r e s s .

I n p a r a g r a p h s – in

paragraph 7 you talk about:
“ T h e in t e n ti o n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o r e v i v e t h e
M a f ik e n g a n d P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r ts . ”
H o w f a r w e r e t h e p l a n s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n a s f a r a s r e v iv in g
t h e s e a ir p o r ts w e r e c o n c e r n e d a t t h e t i m e ?
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

In

the

year

2014

C h a ir

th e

d e p a r t m e n t h a d i n c lu d e d r e v iv in g t h e a ir p o r ts a s a n a c t iv i ty o r p r i o r i ty
in t h e i r 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5 a n n u a l p e r fo r m a n c e p l a n b u t th a t w a s a t a v e r y e a r ly
p l a n n in g s t a g e t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t a t t h e ti m e t h e r e w a s n o b u d g e t
a l lo c a t io n y e t.

S o o n 2 6 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 th e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t l e d

b y th e D e p a r t m e n t o f To u r is m w a s i n v i te d t o S u n C i t y.
I w a s i n v i te – t h e - th e in v i t a ti o n w a s f o r – w a s t o h e a r a
p r e s e n t a ti o n fr o m s i x a ir l in e s t h a t w e r e in v it e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

S o r r y.

W h o – w h o in v i t e d y o u ?

Who was

r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h a t m e e ti n g ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I w a s i n v i te d b y th e O ff ic e o f t h e

H O D a t th e ti m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o c a l l e d o r a r r a n g e d fo r t h is m e e ti n g
t h a t to o k p l a c e o n 2 6 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

What

the

O ff ic e

of

th e

HOD

c o n fir m e d w a s t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f To u r is m w a s th e o n e t h a t w a s –

Page 31 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h a t h a d c o o r d i n a te d th e m e e t in g a n d h a d s e n t th e i n v it e s t o t h e
d e p a r t m e n t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

Proceed.

Yo u s a i d s ix a ir l in e s w e r e

in v i te d …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: O h .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : To m a k e p r e s e n ta t io n s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

O k a y.

Six – according to the

in f o r m a ti o n r e c e i v e d a t t h e m e e t in g s ix a ir l in e s w e r e in v i t e d t o c o m e
a n d m a k e p r e s e n ta t io n s b u t o n ly fo u r o f t h o s e a ir l in e s s h o w e d u p a n d –
10

a n d th e y m a d e p r e s e n t a t i o n s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ms Phatudi

if

I

may

ask

was

your

d e p a r t m e n t in v o lv e d a n y h o w i n t h e s e l e c ti o n o f t h e s ix a ir li n e s t h a t
w e r e in v i t e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

No.

Our department was not

in v o lv e d in s e le c ti n g t h e a ir l in e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D o … ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I s p e c i fic a lly w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n

t h e s e le c t i o n o f t h e a ir l i n e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
20

D o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o n h o w th e y

w e r e s e le c te d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I do not know how they were

selected.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th e n

o n ly

Page 32 of 224

fo u r

came.

Then

what

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
happened?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s .

O n ly fo u r c a m e a n d t h e y

m a d e a p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e c o ll e c t iv e th a t w a s t h e r e . T h e d e p a r t m e n t s
t h a t w e r e i n th a t – i n th a t p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
C o m m u n i ty, S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t M a n a g e m e n t , th e O ff ic e o f th e
P r e m i e r, t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Fi n a n c e a n d th e D e p a r t m e n t o f To u r is m .
T h o s e a r e th e d e p a r t m e n t s t h a t w e r e p r e s e n t i n t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d fo ll o w i n g t h a t p r e s e n t a t i o n ta k e u s

t h r o u g h th e e v e n t s th a t f o ll o w e d t h e p r e s e n ta t io n . I n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 y o u
10

s p e a k a b o u t a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o E x c o a f t e r t h is
p r e s e n t a ti o n .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s .

A f t e r t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n I a m

aware that the HOD prepared a – or the department prepared a
m e m o r a n d u m s u m m a r is in g t h e p r o p o s a ls m a d e b y – b y t h o s e s e r v i c e
p r o v i d e r s th a t o r th e p o t e n t ia l s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s t h e a ir li n e s t h a t w e r e
there.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

When you say the department were

y o u p a r t – w e r e y o u p a r t o f – o f f o r m u l a ti n g t h is – t h i s m e m o r a n d u m ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
20

I w a s n o t p a r t o f f o r m u l a ti n g th e

memorandum.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e r e y o u c o n t a c t e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: S o r r y m a ’a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e r e y o u c o n t a c t e d f o r y o u r … ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I

m e m o r a n d u m a f t e r i t w a s f i n a li s e d .

Page 33 of 224

became

aware

of

the

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . P r o c e e d .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s .

The – the purpose of the

m e m o r a n d u m w a s t o m a k e – w a s t o m a k e a p r e s e n t a ti o n to t h e Ex c o
w h ic h is t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l o f t h e Pr o v in c e to - t o p r e s e n t t h e – t h e
– to s u m m a r is e w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h e p r e s e n ta t io n s t h a t w e r e h e ld a t
S u n C i ty.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h a t w e r e t h e y a s k i n g f o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O r w h a t w e r e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y M s B u t h e le z i .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e – th e b a c k g r o u n d le a d i n g t o t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f

a g r e e m e n ts t h a t w e r e c o n c l u d e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d S A E x p r e s s w e
d o n o t n e e d t o g e t t o o m u c h in t o i t a n d m u c h o f i t I a s s u m e w il l n o t b e
in d is p u t e i n t e r m s o f w h a t th e P r o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t d i d . S o y o u c a n
ju s t le a d h e r q u ic k ly in t e r m s o f th a t .
O t h e r w is e w e n e e d to g e t to h o w th e a g r e e m e n t w a s
c o n c l u d e d , w h e t h e r s h e a c c e p ts th a t th a t is a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s
c o n c l u d e d b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d – a n d t h e m a n d t h e n d e a l w it h h o w
20

t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s - i f s h e k n o w s th e m - o f h o w i t c a m e to b e c o n c lu d e d
a n d th e n w e m o v e o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms Mofokeng do you

c o n fir m t h a t o n t h a t – P h a t u d i – d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t o n th a t
m e m o r a n d u m t h e r e w a s a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t th e t w o a ir p o r t s b e
r e v iv e d a n d t h a t S A E x p r e s s b e a p p o i n t e d a s a s u p p l ie r a n d th a t is o n

Page 34 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
p a g e 2 0 o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t w a s s e n t t o E x c o ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f y o u k n o w t h a t t h a t i s w h a t is i n th e

m e m o r a n d u m . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o g o to it .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir. I c o n fir m t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

That

is

what

was

on

the

memorandum.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u a n d d o y o u a l s o c o n fi r m t h a t t h e
said

memorandum

was

s ig n e d

by

th e

HOD

at

the

ti m e

M r B a i le y M a h la k o l e n g a n d th e M E C M r O a g e n g M o l a p is i ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I c o n f i r m t h a t C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

W h a t I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u

M s M o fo k e n g is i t …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: P h a tu d i .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M s – s o r r y – s o r r y. M s P h a t u d i i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s w r o n g w i th t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r s t h i s w e e k ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I a p o lo g is e C h a ir. Ms P h a t u d i …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Do you – what I want to understand from

y o u is th a t is i t p r o c e d u r a l fo r y o u r d e p a r t m e n t t o s e e k a p p r o v a l fr o m
E x c o b e f o r e t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

T h e p r o c e s s fo r a p p o in t m e n t o f

s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s C h a ir w o u ld b e t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld a d v e r ti s e a

Page 35 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
b i d i f it w a s o n e o f t h e p r i o r i ti e s t h a t w e r e b a d e f o r t h a t w o u l d b e
in c l u d e d …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y Ms P h a t u d i I h a v e b e e n r e q u e s t e d t o
a s k y o u to b r i n g th e m ic c lo s e r t o y o u .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: O h , o h .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Th a n k y o u .

S o r r y C h a ir.

Th e

p r o c e s s – t h e c o r r e c t p r o c e s s w o u l d b e t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld
id e n t i fy p r i o r i ti e s o r p r o j e c ts t h a t t h e y w o u l d a d v e r t is e o r – j a .
10

They

w o u ld a d v e r tis e o r g o o u t o n te n d e r f o r i n a p a r t ic u l a r fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
T h o s e w i ll b e i n c l u d e d i n t h e p l a n s – i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p l a n s a n d th a t
w o u ld b e b u d g e te d f o r.
S o w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n is t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld g o o u t o n
t e n d e r,

a d v e r t is e

and

go

through

th e

normal

departmental

bid

p r o c e s s e s w h e r e t h e b i d – t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s w o u l d b e p r e s e n te d to th e
Bid

S p e c i fi c a t io n

C o m m i t te e

and

for

approval

by

the

Head

of

D e p a r t m e n t b u t w i ll a l s o g o th r o u g h t h e Bi d A d j u d ic a ti o n C o m m i t t e e fo r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d o n c e t h e – t h e a d v e r t h a s b e e n a d v e r t is e d a n d
c lo s e d th e b id s w o u l d b e e v a l u a te d a n d a d ju d i c a t e d a n d th e H O D w o u l d
20

approve.
S o th a t is t h e – t h e s u m m a r y o f h o w t h e p r o c e s s o f
a p p o i n t m e n t s h o u ld b e . Th e a p p o in t m e n t i s d o n e a n d c o n c lu d e d b y th e
Head of Department.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d in t h is p a r t ic u l a r in s ta n c e y o u

c o n fir m t h a t n o s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s f o ll o w e d ?

Page 36 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s .

Th is – t h i s p r o j e c t w a s n o t

a d v e r t is e d - d id n o t g o o u t o n te n d e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s . A s – a s C F O w h a t w a s y o u r v i e w o n

t h is in t h is in s ta n c e ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

My v i e w w a s t h a t t h i s n e e d s t o b e

a d v e r t is e d . T h e d e p a r t m e n t n e e d e d t o g o o u t o n t e n d e r. I a d v is e d t h e
H O D to s a y e s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e i t i s a n e w – i t w a s a n e w e n v i r o n m e n t
t o u s . A s i t w a s t h e f ir s t p r o j e c t o f i ts k in d . W e d id n o t k n o w w h a t w a s
o n t h e m a r k e t , w h a t t h e m a r k e t c o u l d o ff e r g e n e r a lly in c l u d i n g p r i c i n g
10

a n d c o s t in g a n d a ll t h a t .
S o i t w o u l d b e – it w a s a d v i s a b l e f o r th e d e p a r t m e n t t o g o o u t
o n t e n d e r. S o t h a t w e c o u ld g e t t h e b e s t – y o u k n o w – t h e b e s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Best bids.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: O p ti o n th a t c o u l d b e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: O ff e r e d b y t h e m a r k e t .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

S o m y a d v ic e w a s t h a t w e g o o u t

on tender but that advice was not taken.
20

The response was that the

c o l l e c ti v e a t th e m e e t in g o f S u n C i ty h a s – h a s r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t th e
p r o c e s s b e t a k e n u p o r – o r a m e m o r a n d u m b e p r e p a r e d t o Ex c o a n d
t h is b e p r e s e n te d to E x c o fo r – fo r a p p r o v a l.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o f o r m e d p a r t o f t h a t c o ll e c t iv e t h a t
m a d e t h a t d e c is i o n ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

A t t h e S u n C i ty m e e ti n g a s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
in d i c a t e d e a r li e r i t w a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f To u r i s m , D e p a r t m e n t o f
C o m m u n i ty S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t, Tr e a s u r y a n d th e o ffic e o f th e
P r e m i e r, I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r, C h a ir, w h o r e p r e s e n t e d t h e o ffi c e o f th e
P r e m i e r b u t f o r th e o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts , th e H O D ’s a n d t h e M E C ’s fo r a l l
t h e d e p a r t m e n ts w e r e t h e r e a n d I a ls o , to g e t h e r w i t h t h e C h i e f D ir e c to r
r e s p o n s i b l e fo r Tr a n s p o r t O p e r a ti o n s w e r e in v i te d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s s o t h e d e c is i o n to a p p o in t S A

E x p r e s s w a s m a d e b y t h o s e fo u r, t h e M E C ’s a n d H O D ’s fr o m t h o s e fo u r
d e p a r t m e n ts .
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d C h a ir … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

I th in k s h e s a id r e c o m m e n d a t io n .

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o g o t o

E x c o w i th … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A p r o p o s a l.

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

T h e p r o p o s a l to a p p o i n t S A

Express.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w t h e n a m e s o f t h e – y o u s a id y o u d i d n ’ t
k n o w, I t h in k , w h o r e p r e s e n t e d t h e o ff ic e o f th e Pr e m i e r.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r.

J a b u t t e ll u s t h e n a m e s o f th o s e w h o r e p r e s e n t e d

t h e o th e r d e p a r t m e n ts a t t h e t i m e , i f y o u k n o w t h e m .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

T h e o ffi c e – th e D e p a r t m e n t o f

To u r is m w a s r e p r e s e n t e d b y t h e a c ti n g H O D a t t h e ti m e i t w a s M r
C h a r l e s N d a b e n i w h o r e p r e s e n t e d t h e To u r is m D e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r C h a r le s N d a b e n i ?

Page 38 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

MS

INGRID

K U T LWA N O

Ye s C h a ir.

P H AT U D I:

The

Department

of

C o m m u n i ty … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s h is p o s i ti o n in t h e To u r i s m D e p a r t m e n t i f

y o u r e m e m b e r, h e w a s a c ti n g … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ac t i n g H O D ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s a c ti n g H O D a t t h e t i m e .

Ye s C h a ir.

And then the other deparment?

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I :

D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i ty S a f e ty

a n d Tr a n s p o r t w a s r e p r e s e n te d b y Mr B a il e y M a h la k o le n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

B a i le y M a h la k o le n g .

O k a y d o y o u w a n t t o s p e ll t h e s u r n a m e f o r t h e s a k e

o f t h e tr a n s c r i b e r s .
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I :

O k a y M r M a h la k o l e n g is M - a - h - l- a -

k - o - l- e - n - g .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s a n d w h a t w a s h i s p o s i ti o n ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t , o f y o u r d e p a r t m e n t?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

The Head of Department.

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s .

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H ATU D I:

A n d t h e Tr e a s u r y – D e p a r t m e n t o f

Fi n a n c e w a s r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r I s r a e l G u n e n i ? h e is t h e H e a d o f

Page 39 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
D e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o t h a n k y o u , b u t y o u w e r e p a r t o f t h a t

m e e ti n g .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I w a s in t h a t m e e ti n g C h a ir b u t I

m u s t a ls o s ta t e t h a t I tr i e d to g e t t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e m e e ti n g , I c o u ld n ’ t
g e t t h e m i n u t e s b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g
a ft e r t h e p o t e n t i a l o r t h e a ir li n e r s p r e s e n t e d w h e r e f o r m a lly t h e
d e c is i o n w a s r e a c h e d , s o I w a n t e d t o r e f e r to t h e m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t , a l t h o u g h y o u a t t e n d e d t h e

p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t w e r e g iv e n b y a ir li n e s , w h il e y o u w e r e t h e r e , n o
d e c is i o n t o r e c o m m e n d a n y t h i n g w a s t a k e n b y a g r o u p o f p e o p l e th a t
in c l u d e d th e t w o H O D ’s y o u ’r e ta lk in g a b o u t a n d t h e A c t i n g H O D a n d
yourself, you

were

not

p a r ty

to

any

such

d e c i s i o n , ( i n d is ti n c t)

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s n o t p a r t y t o a n y –

to that decision.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u l e f t a ft e r t h e p r e s e n ta t io n ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d w h e n y o u le f t w e r e t h e r e o th e r p e o p le w h o c a m e

w h o r e p r e s e n t e d d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts s t il l th e r e , d i d t h e y r e m a i n ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H ATU D I:

I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r t h e r e w a s

a n o t h e r m e e t i n g a f t e r t h is o n e b u t w h a t I k n o w is a f te r th e p r e s e n t a ti o n
w e le f t a n d I w a s n o t p a r t o f th e d e c is i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u – th e o t h e r p e r s o n , y o u s a y w e le f t , th e

o th e r p e r s o n th a t y o u l e f t w i t h , I a s s u m e , w a s th e a c t in g H O D f o r y o u r

Page 40 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
d e p a r t m e n t o r w a s th e H O D … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MS

K U T LWA N O

INGRID

P H AT U D I:

No

I

didn’t

come

w i th

h i m … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u le f t o n y o u r o w n ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

I l e f t o n m y o w n , y e s C h a ir.

A n d w h e n y o u le f t t h e r e s t o f t h e p e o p l e w e r e s ti ll

t h e r e , w h o c a m e fr o m d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t s o r y o u d o n ’ t k n o w ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u ju s t l e f t a ft e r t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a i r I d o n ’ t k n o w.

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

O k a y b u t s u b s e q u e n t ly y o u s a y y o u w e r e t o ld t h a t

they took a decision.
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s s u b s e q u e n t to t h a t , w h e n I

s p o k e t o th e H O D b a c k h o m e a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o s a y … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e H O D o f y o u r d e p a r t m e n t?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

The HOD of my department.

Ye s .

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

T h a t my a d v ic e is t h a t w e g o o u t

o n t e n d e r b e c a u s e t h is is a n e w p r o je c t it ’s a b ig p r o j e c t w e h a v e n e v e r
20

h a d th is ty p e o f p r o j e c t b e f o r e , w e d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t th e m a r k e t o ff e r s ,
w h a t ’s a v a il a b l e i n t h e m a r k e t , w e g o o u t o n t e n d e r t o a d v e r ti s e a n d
t h e n h i s r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t t h e c o l l e c tiv e – t h e r e ’s a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
t h a t S A E x p r e s s b e a p p o i n t e d a n d a m e m o t o th a t e ff e c t w a s p r e p a r e d
f o r p r e s e n ta t io n a t E x c o .
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w s o o n a ft e r th e – t h a t p r e s e n ta t i o n d id y o u h a v e

Page 41 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h th e – w i t h y o u r H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t , a w e e k , a
d a y, 2 d a y s , a m o n t h ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

It w a s w i th i n a s h o r t s p a c e o f

about maybe three days or a week.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I :

J a i t w a s a s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And he said to you that a decision to make a

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o E x c o h a d b e e n m a d e b y a c o ll e c t iv e b y a c e r t a i n
10

c o l l e c ti v e .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d T h e c o l l e c tiv e h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t w h i c h o n e

d i d y o u u n d e r s t o o d - w h o d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o b e t a lk i n g a b o u t?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

H e s a i d th e c o ll e c ti v e t h a t w a s a t

t h e m e e ti n g o f … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

The presentation?

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I :

Ye s s o I ’ m n o t s u r e w h o e x a c t ly,

w h e t h e r i t w a s th e H O D ’s o r b o t h H O D ’s a n d M E C ’s t h a t is w h y C h a ir, I
s a i d I t r i e d t o l o c a te t h e m i n u t e s o f t h a t m e e ti n g s o t h a t I c o u ld h a v e
20

… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c o u l d h a v e s o m e th i n g in w r it i n g .

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

J a d i d y o u a s k h i m fo r a c o p y o f th e m i n u t e s ?

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

H e i s n o l o n g e r i n th e d e p a r t m e n t

so he…(intervention).

Page 42 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I m e a n a t t h a t t i m e a f t e r th is c o n v e r s a t io n a n d y o u
w e r e lo o k i n g f o r m in u t e s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

Oh you only looked for minutes for purposes of this

Commission?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s I tr ie d t o l o c a te th e m fo r t h e

p u r p o s e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n y e s C h a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h h i m t h e n e n d e d o n

t h e b a s is t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n h a d b e e n m a d e
10

t h a t Ex c o s h o u ld a p p o i n t o r s h o u ld d e c i d e t o a p p o in t t h a t S A E x p r e s s
should be appointed?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d d i d y o u e v e r h a v e a n o th e r d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t

t h is i s s u e w i t h h i m i n r e g a r d t o t h e w a y f o r w a r d o r t h a t w a s t h e e n d f o r
t h a t ti m e ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r h a v in g a n o th e r

c o n v e r s a ti o n – m e e ti n g o r c o n v e r s a ti o n a b o u t t h is y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u , p r o c e e d Ms B u t h e l e z i.

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

Thank you, Ms Phatudi was it at that

s t a g e w h e n th e s e m e m o r a n d u m w a s b e i n g p r e p a r e d f o r th e E x c o w h e n
y o u h a d t h is d is c u s s i o n w i th H O D ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s C h a i r b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e

w h e n h e to l d m e t h a t d e p a r t m e n t w i ll b e p r e s e n t in g t h a t E x c o m e m o .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f e v e r y o n e w h e n y o u
r e fe r t o E x c o , w h o is E x c o ?

Page 43 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

E x c o is th e Pr o v in c i a l E x e c u t iv e

C o u n c il w h ic h c o m p r is e s o f t h e P r e m i e r a n d t h e M E C ’s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t is t h e r o l e o f E x c o i n

t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

L ik e I i n d i c a t e d , C h a ir b e fo r e , I

in d i c a t e d th a t th e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s a r e – th e r e ’s a p r o c e s s o f
a p p o i n ti n g s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s i n t e r n a l ly i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d d o e s th a t e v e r i n c lu d e t h e Ex c o , i n y o u r

experience?
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

It h a s n ’ t – b e fo r e t h is h a p p e n e d i t h a d n e v e r

in c l u d e d t h e Ex c o a s f a r a s y o u k n o w … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

I n c l u d e d i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s .

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y.

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

S o th is w a s a n e x c e p ti o n .

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

A s f a r a s I k n o w C h a ir.

Ye s i t w a s a n e x c e p t io n .

D i d Ex c o , i n f a c t , t a k e t h a t d e c is i o n th a t

S A E x p r e s s s h o u l d b e a p p o i n te d , w a s t h a t d e c is i o n m a d e ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir, I l a t e r g o t a c o p y o f a n

e x tr a c t fr o m t h e E x c o r e s o l u t io n s w h ic h s a i d E x c o a g r e e d w i th t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e n o w k n o w t h a t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

I’ m s o r r y M s B u t h e l e z i , ju s t r e m in d m e w h e r e – o n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
w h a t p a g e is t h a t m e m o t h a t y o u ta lk a b o u t ?
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

T h e m e m o , i t ’s A n n e x u r e K P 1 , i t s t a r ts

fr o m p a g e 1 2 u p t o p a g e 2 1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Under which divider?

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Is

Number 1.
t h is

the

memo

that

went

to

Exco

and

recommended that SA Express be appointed?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s C h a ir th is is th e m e m o .

A n d i t w a s s i g n e d b y t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f th e

D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i ty S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t a n d th e M E C f o r th a t
d e p a r t m e n t, M r - i s i t G a r a g e M o l a p is i ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

It ’s G a o a g e W a g e n g M o l a p is i .

O h G a o a g e o k a y th a n k y o u I ’ m s o r r y a b o u t t h a t.

S o – a n d d i d Ex c o a p p r o v e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , d id t h e y a c c e p t t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s C h a ir th e r e w a s a n e x tr a c t

fr o m t h e E x c o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a ir, i f I m a y b e o f a s s is t a n c e , if I

c o u l d r e f e r y o u , t h e r e a r e p a p e r s th a t w e a d d e d t o y o u r b u n d le o n p a g e
20

3 8 1 i t ’s r i g h t a t t h e e n d – t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e b u n d l e , th e r e ’s a n d
e x tr a c t o f E x c o m in u t e s d a t e d 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:

So

you

say

yes,

Ex c o

d id

approve

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n – o h h a v e y o u r e a c h e d p a g e 3 8 1 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s C h a ir, th e e x t r a c t th a t I w a s

r e fe r r i n g to h a s a t t h e b o t t o m t h e r e – t h e r e ’s a h e a d i n g t h a t s a y s ,

Page 45 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
“r e s o lv e d t h a t ” , it s a y s ,
“ E x c o a g r e e d t h a t th e d e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d p r o c e e d w i th t h e
c h o s e n s e r v ic e p r o v id e r a n d s i g n t h e c o n tr a c t ( S A E x p r e s s )
a n d a l s o t h a t th e s u b m is s i o n s s h o u ld s e r v e a g a i n o n D e c e m b e r
2 0 1 4 w i t h a p r o p e r a n a ly s is o f p r e s e n ta t io n a n d o p t io n s f o r
c o n s i d e r a ti o n s b y E x c o – f o r c o n s id e r a ti o n b y Ex c o ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is is s tr a n g e , E x c o , a c c o r d i n g t o t h is e x tr a c t y o u

s a y i t’s a n e x tr a c t fr o m t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e N o r t h W e s t E x c o m e e ti n g o f
3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , u n d e r r e s o lv e d t h a t , a ) s a y s ,
10

“ E x c o a g r e e d t h a t th e d e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d p r o c e e d w i th t h e
c h o s e n s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a n d s ig n th e c o n t r a c t ( S A E x p r e s s ) ” .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

And then b) says,

“ T h e s u b m i s s io n s h o u l d s e r v e a g a in o n 1 5 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w i th
a

proper

a n a ly s is

of

p r e s e n ta t io n s

and

o p ti o n s

for

c o n s i d e r a ti o n b y E x c o ” ,
D o y o u s e e w h a t I s e e a s s tr a n g e t h e r e o r is th a t – d o y o u s e e
t h a t th e r e i s s o m e th in g s tr a n g e w i t h t h a t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
20

Chair?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n ’t s e e a n y t h in g s t r a n g e – d o y o u s e e a n y t h i n g
s tr a n g e i n t h o s e t w o s e n te n c e s o f w h a t t h e y r e s o lv e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

T h e y – j a th e y r e s o lv e d o n th e

a p p o i n t m e n t, s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h e r e s o l u ti o n o n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t is o n e t h i n g

b u t I u n d e r s ta n d b ) t o b e t h a t a l th o u g h t h e y h a d a lr e a d y r e s o lv e d th a t

Page 46 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h e d e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d p r o c e e d w it h t h e c h o s e n s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a n d
s ig n th e c o n tr a c t, t h e y w e r e s ti ll g o in g t o r e c e iv e a n a n a l y s i s o f th e
p r e s e n t a ti o n a f te r w a r d s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s w e l l?

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s t h a t’s h o w I u n d e r s ta n d i t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t s e e m s s tr a n g e t o m e I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t

t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e w a n te d – a s s u m i n g t h a t t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o
10

m u s t m a k e t h e d e c is i o n a n d a s s u mi n g th a t t h e p r o c e s s e s h a v e b e e n
f o ll o w e d o r t h a t t h e r e i s j u s t if ic a ti o n fo r n o t f o ll o w i n g p r o c e s s e s , I
w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t t h e y w o u ld f ir s t s a y, b e fo r e w e c a n m a k e a
d e c is i o n w h e t h e r th e d e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d g o a h e a d a n d s i g n a n
agreement with SA Express, we want to see an analysis of the
p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d t h e n w e ’ ll m a k e o u r d e c i s i o n a f t e r t h a t , b u t t h e s e
m i n u t e s s a y th e d e p a r t m e n t m u s t g o a h e a d a n d s i g n t h e c o n tr a c t w i th
S A E x p r e s s a n d th e n t h e a n a ly s is o r th e p r e s e n t a ti o n s m u s t c o m e l a te r,
I f i n d th a t s tr a n g e , d o y o u a ls o f i n d th a t s tr a n g e o r is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g
I’ m m i s s in g ?

20

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Ye s C h a ir I h e a r w h a t y o u ’r e

s a y in g C h a ir i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n b e t t e r o r i t w o u ld h a v e m a d e m o r e
s e n s e i f th e y r e c e i v e d t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n b e f o r e d e c id in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e y o u ’ r e p u tt i n g it li g h te r, h o w d o y o u

s t a r t b y m a k i n g a d e c is i o n a n d t h e n a f te r w a r d s s a y b r i n g m e t h e
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I n e e d t o m a k e a d e c is i o n th a t I ’v e a lr e a d y m a d e , t h i s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
is m o r e s tr a n g e r to m e b e c a u s e I’ v e h e a r d t h e p a s t f e w d a y s a n d
m a y b e l a s t w e e k a f e w o f i n s t a n c e s w h e r e d e c is io n s a r e m a d e w i t h o u t
t h e n e c e s s a r y in f o r m a t io n , a t l e a s t o n t h e i n f o r m a ti o n – o n th e
e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n b y c e r t a i n w i tn e s s e s a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w
o th e r w i t n e s s e s m i g h t c o m e a n d s a y it ’s n o t tr u e , w e d i d h a v e a l l o f
t h a t in f o r m a ti o n , b u t o n t h e e v i d e n c e g iv e n b y c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s ,
c e r t a i n b o d ie s j u s t m a k e d e c i s i o n s to h a v e c o n tr a c ts c o n c l u d e d w i t h
c e r t a i n s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s w i t h o u t e n o u g h i n fo r m a t i o n , a n d t h e n t h e y s a y
t h e in f o r m a t io n w i ll c o m e la t e r, s o t h a t’s – I j u s t s e e w h a t m a y a p p e a r
10

t o b e a p a t t e r n h e r e , j a o k a y p le a s e c o n t i n u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms Phatudi in your

a ffi d a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 y o u d o m a k e a c o m m e n t t h a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t
o f S A E x p r e s s w a s n o t i n l in e w i th th e p r o v is io n s o f S e c t io n 2 1 7 o f t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n , w h e n d id y o u m a k e th is r e a li s a ti o n ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

C h a ir th is r e f e r s t o t h e fa c t t h a t

t h is b i d o r th is p r o j e c t w a s n o t a d v e r ti s e d , s o I k n o w fo r a fa c t t h a t i t
w a s n o t a d v e r t is e d b e c a u s e i m m e d i a t e ly a ft e r – o r w h a t f o ll o w e d a f te r
t h e m e e t in g a t S u n C i ty w a s t h a t E x c o m e m o w h i c h I ’v e a lr e a d y s p o k e n
to.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n if t h e p r o c u r e m e n t

p r o c e s s e s w e r e f o l lo w e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

I w o u ld h a v e k n o w n C h a ir b e c a u s e

a s t h e C F O I’ m a l s o C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B i d A d j u d i c a t io n C o m m i t te e s o I
w o u ld

h a v e k n o w n b e c a u s e t h e s p e c i fi c a t io n s

would have been

p r e s e n t e d to t h e B i d A d j u d ic a ti o n C o m m i t t e e a n d a ll t h o s e ( in d is ti n c t)

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
p r o c e s s e s w o u ld h a v e …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d y o u h a d a d v i s e d t h a t p r o c e s s e s s h o u l d b e

f o ll o w e d b u t y o u r a d v ic e w a s n o t a c c e p t e d b y t h e H O D o f y o u r
d e p a r t m e n t.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I d i d C h a ir.

Ye s a r e t h e r e a n y c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h i c h e x is te d

w h ic h j u s t i fi e d n o t fo ll o w i n g p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a s f a r a s y o u a r e
concerned?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n ’ t k n o w o f a n y C h a ir.

Yo u d o n ’t k n o w o f a n y a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d

t h e r e w a s n o j u s t if ic a ti o n f o r n o t f o l lo w in g p r o c e s s e s ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

T h e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n C h a ir b u t

I’ m n o t a w a r e o f t h e m … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I’ m s a y i n g a c c o r d i n g t o – a s f a r a s y o u k n o w.

MS

I N G R ID

K U T LWA N O

P H AT U D I:

As

far

as

I

know

C h a ir … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

What do you understand the normal exceptions to be

w h e r e th o s e p r o c e s s e s w o u ld n o t b e f o ll o w e d , y o u r o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:
20

C h a ir p r e s c r i p ts d o a ll o w f o r

d e v i a ti o n s b u t i t w o u ld b e i n e x c e p t io n a l s p e c i fi c c a s e s , fo r e x a m p le , in
e m e r g e n c y a p p o in t m e n ts o r i n u r g e n t – o r w h e r e t h e r e ’s s o l e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r s b u t t h e n a n a p p r o v a l w o u ld h a v e b e e n s o u g h t b e f o r e
c o n c l u d i n g …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e l l I g u e s s e v e n w i t h a d e v ia t io n if y o u a s k

f o r i t , y o u a p p ly fo r i t a n d i t ’s g r a n t e d it is a p r o c e s s i ts e l f .

Page 49 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n ’ t j u s t n o t d o a n y th in g a n d s a y t h a t i t ’s

ju s t i fic a ti o n y o u ’v e g o to f o l lo w

deviation process.

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is a p r o c e s s i n i t s e l f C h a ir.

Ye s .

S o is t h e r e a n y – a r e t h e r e a n y c ir c u m s t a n c e s a s

f a r a s y o u k n o w w h e r e a d e p a r t m e n t c a n s i m p ly n o t fo ll o w a n y p r o c e s s ,
e i t h e r a d e v i a ti o n p r o c e s s o r t h e n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w o f a n y s u c h ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s a n d y o u h a v e b e e n C F O i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t s i n c e

2013?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

2 0 1 3 , d u r in g y o u r ti m e y o u h a v e n e v e r h a d s u c h a

s i tu a ti o n h a v e y o u , w h e r e y o u c o m e a c r o s s a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e i t is s a i d
t h a t th e r e i s j u s ti f ic a t i o n n o t e v e n t o a p p l y fo r d e v ia t io n ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

No Chair I have never come

across that yes.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

If y o u d o n ’t f o l l o w n o r ma l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s

y o u ’r e o b li g e d t o a p p ly f o r d e v i a ti o n .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir

Yo u c a n ’ t n o t f o l l o w t h o s e p r o c e s s e s a n d n o t a p p ly

f o r d e v ia t io n .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y.

Page 50 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Thank you M s Phatudi, we are aware that

e v e n t u a l ly S A E x p r e s s w a s a p p o i n te d a n d t h e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t is
u n d e r t a b 2 , C h a ir, th a t w a s s ig n e d w i t h S A E x p r e s s o n t h e 3 1 s t o f
M a r c h 2 0 1 5 , w h o p a r tic i p a t e d i n d r a f ti n g t h is a g r e e m e n t o n b e h a l f o f
t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

Chair the department has a legal

d iv is io n t h e d ir e c t o r a te r e s p o n s i b le f o r l e g a l s e r v i c e s , t h e y a r e t h e
o n e s w h o d r a f te d t h e s e r v i c e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e d e p a r t m e n t
and SA Express.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

O n w h o s e i n s tr u c t io n , i s i t t h e H O D ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s i t w o u l d b e t h e H O D .

Ye s I c o u l d s e e o n p a g e 5 7 t h a t t h i s

a g r e e m e n t i s s ig n e d , d o y o u r e c o g n i s e t h e s i g n a t u r e t h a t is o n p a g e
57?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I :

Ye s C h a ir, t h e s ig n a tu r e o n p a g e

5 7 is th a t o f , t h e t h e n H O D , M r B a i le y M a h la lk o l e n g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d w e a r e t o ld b y M r P h ir i

y e s t e r d a y t h a t f o r S A E x p r e s s , t h e p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d – i n f a c t h i s
n a m e is s p e l t th e r e i s M r I n a t i N ts h a n g a , y o u d o c o n f ir m ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

P a g e 5 7 I s e e o n e s i g n a t u r e o r i s it t w o , t h e o n e is

u n d e r s i g n a t u r e a n d t h e n b e lo w th a t i t s a y s s ig n e d a t- o h s i g n e d a t
M a f ik e n g a n d i t ’s 3 1 - 0 3 - 2 0 1 5 , I t h i n k o r i s it 2 0 1 3 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

It ’s 2 0 1 5 C h a ir.

2 0 1 5 , i t lo o k s lik e 2 0 7 5 a n d a b o v e t h a t s ig n a tu r e ,

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
w h a t is w r i t t e n is , s i g n e d f o r a n d o n b e h a lf o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
C o m m u n i ty S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t M a n a g e m e n t , N o r t h W e s t Pr o v in c e ,
y o u s a y t h a t s i g n a t u r e y o u d o r e c o g n is e i t a s t h e s i g n a t u r e o f th e th e n
head of your department?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u , M s B u th e l e z i y o u w a n te d to s a y

something.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u I w a n te d t o s a y o n p a g e 5 8

t h e r e ’s a s i g n a t u r e f o r a p e r s o n w h o s i g n e d o n b e h a l f o f S A E x p r e s s
10

a n d t h a t p e r s o n – th a t s i g n a t u r e w a s i d e n t i fi e d a s th a t o f Mr I n a ti
N ts h a n g a b y M r P h ir i w h o h a d t e s t i fi e d e a r li e r o n , y o u d o c o n f ir m ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o t h a t ’s f in e .

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

N o w M s P h a t u d i th i s a g r e e m e n t, w e ll i t s t a r ts a t

p a g e 2 3 is – j a i t s t a r ts a t p a g e 2 3 , w h e n d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h e
a g r e e m e n t f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e , a f t e r i t h a d b e e n s i g n e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I :
agreement
20

after

it

had

been

C h a ir I b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h e
a

signed

when

there

was

a

c la i m … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

And that would have been 2015?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s 2 0 1 5 .

2 0 1 5 , o k a y a lr i g h t , y o u w e r e e a r li e r o n ta lk in g ,

s a y in g t h a t t h e – y o u r l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d h a v e p r e p a r e d t h e
a g r e e m e n t a f t e r g e t ti n g i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m th e H O D , Ms B u t h e l e z i y o u

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Thank you and who represented SA Express
w h e n th e n e g o t i a t i o n s w e r e d o n e ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

The SA Express was represented

by Mr Brian van Wyk.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u a n d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

W e r e y o u p r e s e n t a t s o m e o f t h e m e e ti n g s w h e r e t h e

a g r e e m e n t w a s n e g o ti a t e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:
10

N o I w a s n o t p a r t o f n e g o ti a ti n g

for the agreement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t h o w d o y o u k n o w t h a t Mr v a n W y k

represented SA Express.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir s h e s a i d a t m e e ti n g s .

D o y o u h a v e a n y p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e a s t o w h o

r e p r e s e n t e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t fi r s t a t n e g o ti a ti o n m e e ti n g s b e f o r e t h e
c o n c l u s i o n o f th is a g r e e m e n t , d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f w h o
r e p r e s e n t e d t h e – y o u r d e p a r t m e n t in n e g o ti a ti o n s t h a t r e s u l te d in t h is
a g r e e m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
20

It was the HOD, the head of

d e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

The HOD?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J a a n d h o w d o y o u k n o w th a t ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H AT U D I:

B e c a u s e h e s ig n e d th e a g r e e m e n t

e v e n t u a l ly a n d le g a l s e r v ic e s a ls o c o n f ir m e d t h a t h e ’s t h e o n e w h o

Page 53 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
gave

i n s tr u c t io n s

fo r

them

to

draft

th e

service

level

a g r e e m e n t …( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u n e v e r a t t e n d e d a n y m e e ti n g s , i f t h e r e

w e r e m e e ti n g s ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H ATU D I:

F o r t h e d r a f t in g o f th e – n o t h e r e

were no – I was not part of…(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y y o u ’r e a w a r e t h a t th is a g r e e m e n t w a s

d r a f t e d b y y o u r le g a l d e p a r t m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y a n d t h e n i t w a s p r e s e n t e d to S A E x p r e s s o r y o u

d o n ’t k n o w, y o u j u s t k n e w w h e n i t w a s s i g n e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

O h b u t i t w a s d r a f t e d b y th e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir.

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , y o u s a y y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h is

a g r e e m e n t w h e n a c la i m w a s s u b m i t t e d , w h o h a d s u b m i t te d th is c la i m ?
M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

T h e – m a y b e I m u s t ta lk C h a ir to

t h e p r o c e s s o f … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th a t ’s fi n e , d o s o .

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s t h e e n d u s e r w h ic h is t h e

p r o g r a m m e o r t h e p r o g r a m m e m a n a g e r f o r a p a r ti c u l a r p r o j e c t o r
p r o g r a m m e w o u l d r e c e iv e a n i n v o ic e a n d t h e n p r e p a r e a r e q u is it i o n f o r
p a y m e n t a n d a p p r o v e – t h e C h ie f D i r e c t o r w o u ld a p p r o v e o r t h e
D ir e c t o r i n th is i n s ta n c e i t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r a n d t h e n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
s e n t to t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t f o r t h e f in a l a p p r o v a l .

S o w h e n th e

c la i m h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d t h e S L A w o u l d b e a t ta c h e d a n d a ls o th e r e
w o u ld b e c h e c k li s t s a n d ju s t f o r e a c h a n d e v e r y s t a g e o f t h e p r o c e s s t o
c o n fir m c o m p li a n c e t o c e r t a in t h i n g s o r a r e a s .

So that process

h a p p e n e d a n d t h e p a y m e n t c a m e t o fi n a n c e f o r v e r i fi c a t i o n fo r
c o m p li a n c e c h e c k a n d t h e n I n o ti c e d t h a t it w a s a c t u a l ly t w o i n v o i c e s
that were presented, the one for SA Express and the other one was for
t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h a t w a s th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y ’s n a m e ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o t h e r e w e r e tw o i n v o i c e s .

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

It w a s K o r e n e k a .

Ye s .

A n d w h a t w e r e t h e a m o u n t s i f y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y,

e v e n i f i t’s n o t th e e x a c t a m o u n t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

K o r e n e k a w a s a r o u n d 2 0 m i lli o n .

Ye s .

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

A n d th e S A E x p r e s s w a s a r o u n d

5 1 m i ll io n
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y a n d t h e s e t w o i n v o ic e s c a m e a t t h e s a m e

ti m e – m o r e o r l e s s a t t h e s a m e t i m e ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja more or less at the same time.

O k a y a lr i g h t .

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I :

A n d t h e n I r a is e d – I r e f u s e d t o

p r o c e s s t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y in v o i c e C h a i r r a is i n g c o n c e r n s –
r a i s i n g a n i s s u e t h a t o n c la u s e 6 . 1 o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w h ic h is o n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
p a g e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Clause 6.1?

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R ID P H AT U D I:

6 . 1 w h ic h is o n p a g e 3 1 , t h e c l a u s

says,
“ T h e d e p a r t m e n t s h a ll p a y t o S A E x p r e s s a n n u a ll y i n a d v a n c e
t h e a m o u n ts s t i p u la t e d i n A n n e x u r e A w h i c h a m o u n t is s u b j e c t
t o r e v i e w a t t h e e n d o f e a c h y e a r b y a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e
parties”,
S o t h is d o e s n o t t a lk a b o u t a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y, i t t a lk s
10

about SA Express.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I :

T h a t is w h y I s a i d , I c a n n o t

… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d , I c a n ’ t p a y – w h a t is t h e b a s is fo r u s

paying Koreneka?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Koreneka.

O k a y.

M S K U T LWA N O I N G R I D P H AT U D I:

A n d a ls o i t w a s n o t o n ly t h is

c la u s e , C h a ir, t h e r e ’s a n o t h e r c l a u s e 1 5 .1 .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t’s o n p a g e 4 4 .

I t’s K w a r a n e n g ?

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
CHAIRPERSON:

K o r e n e k a , K - O - R - E - N - K- A .

J a I s a w i t e a r li e r I s e e m to g e t it w r o n g w e ’v e

b e e n d e a li n g w i t h i t t h e p a s t t w o o r t h r e e d a y s , o k a y a lr i g h t, m a y b e it ’s
t h is b r e a k f r o m y e s te r d a y 11 o ’c l o c k t o n o w, y e s .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

And the other clause you referred to is

t h a t c la u s e 1 5 . 1 o n p a g e 4 4 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir w h ic h s a y s ,

“ S A E x p r e s s s h a l l , i n c o n s u lt a ti o n w i th t h e d e p a r t m e n t a p p o i n t
a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y r e s p o n s i b le f o r m a n a g in g c e r ta i n
f a c i li t ie s a t P il a n s b e r g a n d M a fi k e n g A ir p o r t ” ,
S o I r a is e d a n is s u e I s a id , I n e e d t o k n o w h o w t h i s w a s
c o m p li e d w i t h , m e a n i n g h o w w a s t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y a p p o i n te d ,
w h o r e p r e s e n te d t h e d e p a r t m e n t , h o w w a s t h is c o n s u l t a t i o n – h o w d i d it
10

h a p p e n a n d o b v i o u s l y th a t d i d n o t h a p p e n , b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o p r o o f
t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f a m a n a g e m e n t
c o m p a n y.

S o o n th a t b a s i s , I s a id , I a m n o t g o i n g t o p a y t h e

m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I:

Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d fr o m

there…(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y I t h i n k it ’s t i m e w e s h o u l d ta k e t h e l u n c h

b r e a k , w e a r e g o in g t o t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k i t’s a b o u t 2 9 m i n u t e s t o tw o
n o w, w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t t w o , w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s p r o c e e d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

M s P h a t u d i , y o u w e r e t e s ti f y i n g a b o u t t h e

t w o i n v o ic e s t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d , o n e f r o m K o r e n e k a a n d o n e fr o m S A X
a n d t h e f a c t t h a t y o u r e fu s e d t o p a y t h e in v o i c e th a t w a s f r o m K o r e n e k a
r a i s e d o n s e c t i o n 6 . 1 a n d 1 5 . 1 o f t h e s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
had with them at the time.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Would you please take us through to what

happened thereafter?
M S K U T LWA N O

P H AT U D I:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

What happened

t h e r e a f te r C h a ir is th a t I a s i n d ic a t e d r a i s e d th o s e i s s u e s o n s p e c if ic
c la u s e s t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n m e n ti o n e d a n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t
C h a ir I l a t e r r e c e iv e d a r e v i s e d S L A w h e r e t h o s e t w o s p e c i f ic a r e a s
were amended.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e s a m e s e c t i o n 6 .1 a n d 6 . 4 ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Is th a t t h e S L A th a t is a t t a c h e d u n d e r t a b

four ... (intervenes)
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, I t h i n k I mi s s e d s o m e th in g .

D id y o u s a y

where certain clauses were amended?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I: Ye s C h a ir, t h e c l a u s e s t h a t w e r e a m e n d e d
is c l a u s e 6 . 1
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: As w e l l a s c l a u s e 1 5 . 1
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t t h e c l a u s e s to w h i c h y o u r e f e r r e d u s e a r l ie r ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e a m e n d e d la t e r.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y a n d w h e n in r e la t io n t o y o u r r e fu s a l t o

a p p r o v e p a y m e n t f o r K o r e n e n k a ? W a s i t a f te r b e fo r e ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

I t w a s a m e n d e d b e fo r e p a y m e n t w a s

processed.
CHAIRPERSON: But after you had expressed your refusal.
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

Ye s C h a ir, a f t e r I h a d r a is e d c o n c e r n a n d

r e fu s a l to p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, te ll u s a b o u t t h a t.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h e a m e n d e d c l a u s e s 6 . 1 a p p e a r s o n
p a g e 7 7 u n d e r ta b th r e e C h a ir. W o u l d y o u p l e a s e r e a d i t o u t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e c l a u s e r e a d s th u s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms B u t h e l e z i, p l e a s e w a i t fo r m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I w i ll d o s o , I’ m s o r r y. P a g e 7 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: 77?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , I ’ m th e r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. P l e a s e p r o c e e d .
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I : O k a y t h e a m e n d e d c la u s e n o w r e a d s : T h e
D e p a r t m e n t s h a l l p a y S A E x p r e s s th e s u b s i d y a n d th e m a n a g e m e n t
c o m p a n y th e o p e r a ti o n a l c o s t f o r b o t h a ir p o r t s a n n u a lly i n a d v a n c e t h e
a m o u n t s t ip u l a t e d in a n n e x u r e A .

20

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e a m e n d e d c l a u s e 1 5 . 1 a p p e a r s
o n p a g e 8 9 . W o u l d y o u p l e a s e g o th e r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , le t ’s s e e a n n e x u r e A f ir s t b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e . I
w a n t to s e e a n n e x u r e A t h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o i n 6 . 1 , i n t h e a m e n d e d 6 .1 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i s t h a t g o i n g t o ta k e t i m e ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n n e x u r e A a p p e a r s o n p a g e 1 0 4 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 104?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s t h e s a m e a n n e x u r e A th a t w a s r e f e r r e d
t o y e s te r d a y b y Mr P h ir i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , n o t h in g c h a n g e d ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : N o th i n g c h a n g e d o n t h o s e f i g u r e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Let me go there.
10

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t c h a n g e d w a s t h a t i t w a s
n o w a ll o w i n g t h e D e p a r t m e n t t o m a k e a d i r e c t p a y m e n t t o t h e
m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t t o s e e i t b e fo r e w e m o v e to t h e o t h e r

c la u s e . O k a y, th e n l e t’s g o to t h e o th e r c l a u s e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I:
P h a tu d i.

Ye s .

The clause 15.1 is on page 89 Ms

P l e a s e r e a d o u t t o t h e C h a ir w h a t d id i t s a y a ft e r t h e

amendment?
CHAIRPERSON: 81 you said?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 8 9 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : 8 9 , o k a y. Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I:

C h a ir, 1 5 . 1 r e a d s a s fo ll o w s :

The

D e p a r t m e n t m a n d a te s S A E x p r e s s to a p p o i n t a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y
r e s p o n s i b l e f o r m a n a g i n g t h e o p e r a t i o n s a t P il a n e s b e r g a n d M a fi k e n g
a ir p o r ts .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

So now the Department was no longer

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
in v o lv e d o r t o b e c o n s u l t e d w h e n t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n ie s w e r e to
b e a p p o in t e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s is v e r y c o n c e r n i n g . Yo u r e c e iv e p a y m e n t o r y o u
r e c e i v e a n i n v o ic e
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

f o r y o u t o p a y y o u s a id a b o u t 2 0 m i lli o n r a n d t o

Korenenka.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e v e r y o n e b e fo r e y o u h a d s a i d e v e r y th i n g is o k a y
a n d ti c k e d o n c o m p li a n c e e v e r y s t a g e ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n i t c o m e s t o y o u , y o u p ic k u p t h a t t h e r e ’s a

p r o b le m ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t l e a s t p a r t o f th e p r o b le m i s t h a t i t ’s s u p p o s e d
to be paid person to an agreement that says nothing about the
D e p a r t m e n t p a y in g K o r e n e k a a n y th i n g .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e fu s e d to p a y.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e a g r e e m e n t i s t h e n a m e n d e d .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w b e fo r e a m e n d m e n t t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s s a y i n g th e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f a m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y m u s t b e m a d e j o i n t ly b e t w e e n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
the Department and SA Express.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h a t c l a u s e is a m e n d e d to s a y to g iv e t h e p o w e r
o n ly t o S A E x p r e s s t o m a k e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t a lo n e .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the management com pany?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

then

in

regard

to

paying

Koreneka

the

a m e n d m e n t s a y s th e D e p a r t m e n t c a n p a y o p e r a ti o n a l , m a k e p a y m e n t s
10

r e g a r d in g o p e r a ti o n a l c o s t t o b o t h S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y, y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t I fi n d s tr a n g e i s th a t t h a t’s w h y I w a n t e d to
have a look at the annexure A.

It d o e s n ’ t s a y w h a t p o r ti o n o f t h e

o p e r a ti o n a l c o s t s h o u ld g o to w h ic h c o m p a n y d o e s i t?

Now if the

o p e r a ti o n a l c o s t w e r e to b e p a i d to o n e c o m p a n y a n d i t s a y s t h o s e c o s t
a r e i n a n n e x u r e A , t h a t ’s fi n e .

B u t n o w i t s a y s t h e o p e r a ti o n a l c o s t

m u s t b e p a i d to t h e t w o c o m p a n ie s b u t it d o e s n ’ t s a y m a y b e 5 0 5 0 o r
w h a t h o w i t m u s t b e d iv i d e d o r d o e s i t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: I t’s a lr e a d y d i v id e d C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is i t ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: O n t h e s a m e a n n e x u r e A .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

The second or the bottom part of the

a n n e x u r e , t h e r e ’s a h e a d in g t h a t s a y s m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y s u b s i d y.
And then ... (intervenes)

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: O h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t 1 0 4 b y t h e w a y t h e a n n e x u r e ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir, i t ’s 1 0 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e r e ’s a b o t t o m p a r t o f th e ta b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I :

T h e r e ’s a h e a d i n g th a t s a y s m a n a g e m e n t

c o m p a n y s u b s i d y a n d t h e n i t s p l i ts P il a n e s b e r g a n d M a fi k e n g f o r b o t h
10

r o a d s u b s id y a n d o p e r a t io n a l c o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h e r e d o e s i t s a y h o w m u c h s h o u ld g o t o S A

E x p r e s s , h o w m u c h s h o u ld g o t o th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

The management company is the bottom

p a r t o f t h e t a b l e a n d t h e n a t t h e t o p t h e r e i t s a y s c o n c e s s io n a ir li n e
s u b s i d y, t h a t i s th e S A E x p r e s s a n d i t ’s a l s o s p li t b e t w e e n P i l a n e s b e r g
a n d M a fi k e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll b e f o r e is u n d e r s ta n d t h a t th is a n n e x u r e A is h o w
it lo o k e d e v e n b e f o r e a m e n d m e n t, is th a t ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d a l l o f t h a t m o n e y w a s t o b e p a i d t o S A

E x p r e s s , is n ’t i t? B e f o r e a m e n d m e n t ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s b e f o r e a m e n d m e n t b e c a u s e o n t h e S L A
t h e r e w a s n o m e n ti o n o f p a y i n g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o a l l o f t h a t m o n e y w a s m e a n t to g o t o ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: S A E x p r e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: SA Express before amendment.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e y n o w a m e n d e d t h e a g r e e m e n t to s a y t h e
m o n i e s r e fl e c t e d i n a n n e x u r e A s h o u ld b e p a i d t o S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e
m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t y o u s a y y o u t a k e i t t h a t w h a t i t m e a n s i s th a t

w h a t c o m e s u n d e r m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y i n th a t a n n e x u r e s h o u l d b e
p a i d to t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y a n d w h a t is a b o v e th a t s h o u l d g o t o
SA Express.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But it doesn’t say that itself.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: I t s a y s a ir li n e s u b s i d y.
CHAIRPERSON: Mm?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e t o p p a r t s a y s a i r li n e s u b s i d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h a t s a y it m u s t b e p a i d t o t h e a ir l in e . Yo u t h in k
so?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir, I t h i n k s o .
CHAIRPERSON: How was it going to be paid before amendment?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e a n n e x u r e d i d n ’ t c h a n g e , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t is th e p r o b le m i s n ’ t it ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , M s P h a t u d i . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is n ’t t h a t th e p r o b l e m t h a t b e f o r e th e a m e n d m e n t y o u
have an annexure of various operational cost.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e r e la t e to t h e a ir l in e s u b s i d y, s o m e r e l a t e to t h e
o p e r a ti o n a l c o s t m a y b e o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.

But before the

a m e n d m e n t t h e a g r e e m e n t c o n t e m p la t e d t h a t a ll t h o s e p a y m e n t s s h o u l d
g o t o S A E x p r e s s i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t ly, I m a y b e m is s in g s o m e th i n g .
Is t h a t n o t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ? B e fo r e th e a m e n d m e n t , w h o w a s g o i n g
10

to be paid these amounts in annexure A by the Department or you can’t
remember?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: C h a i r m y . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a m I c o n f u s in g y o u ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t m e a l lo w M s B u t h e l e z i t o p r o c e e d . M a y b e
I w il l u n d e r s t a n d s o m e th i n g a s w e g o a lo n g . L e t ’s c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: Ye s . M s P h a t u d i , i f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 1 0 4 ,
t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s a m o u n t s t h a t a r e l is te d f o r e a c h y e a r u p t o y e a r f iv e ,
t h e y a r e d iv id e d i n to f iv e c o l u m n s . C a n y o u s e e t h a t ?

20

M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . O n t h e f ir s t li n e o n y e a r o n e t h e r e is
2 3 m i ll io n I t h in k 8 0 0 a n d s o m e t h i n g th o u s a n d t h a t s h o u l d b e p a id a s
a ir li n e s u b s i d y. I s t h a t m o n e y t h a t s h o u l d g o t o S A E x p r e s s ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e 11 m il li o n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

On what basis are you saying that miss, are you

p u t t in g th a t q u e s ti o n to h e r M s B u t h e l e z i ?
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: L e t m e c l a r i fy, s o r r y C h a ir. A n d i f y o u l o o k
u n d e r th e s a m e c o l u m n . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I’ ll te ll y o u w h a t w e ’ ll d o t o m a k e p r o g r e s s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t l e a v e t h a t p a r t a s i t is .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b a s i s t h a t p r o b a b ly w h o e v e r w a s to p a y w o u l d
10

lo o k a t m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y s u b s i d y a n d s a y w e ll , i t s e e m t o m a k e
s e n s e t h a t is w h a t s h o u l d g o t o t h e m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t i s a b o v e s h o u l d g o t o t h e a i r l in e e v e n i f i t ’s
n o t c l e a r fr o m t h e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F r o m a n n e x u r e A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s n o t s t a te d i n th e a g r e e m e n t w h ic h p a r t w il l g o to
w h ic h e n t it y.

S o le t ’s p r o c e e d .

I t h i n k w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is th a t o n e ,

t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e th a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d n o lo n g e r b e in v o lv e d
in t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t w o t h a t th e o p e r a t io n a l c o s t c o u l d b e p a id to -

h a d t o b e p a i d b o th i n t h e e n d i n w h a t a m o u n ts i s n o t r e a lly o f
s ig n if ic a n c e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t ’s i m p o r ta n t is th e c o n t e x t in w h ic h th e

Page 66 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
amendment was made.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d M s P h a tu d i, i f I lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h
2 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t is th a t t h e s e tw o i n v o ic e s th a t y o u r e f e r r e d u s t o ,
y o u r e c e iv e d t h e m in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Ye s .

I ts c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t th e i n i t ia l

a g r e e m e n t w a s s i g n e d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d in t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t y o u
10

w e r e e x p e c te d t o m a k e p r e - p a y m e n t. D o y o u a g r e e w i t h th a t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir, y e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u s a y
t h a t th e D e p a r t m e n t r e c e iv e d a n i n v o i c e o f 5 0 m il li o n . A t t h e t i m e t h e
Department did not have a budget to pay SA Express invoice.

Mr

M a h l a k o le n g w r o t e a l e t t e r t o t h e a c ti n g D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a t P r e m i e r
o ffic e o n th e 1 6 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 r e q u e s t i n g t h e p a y m e n t o f- I b e li e v e
t h a t 5 1 m i ll io n s h o u ld b e 5 0 m il li o n n o w.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

O f 5 0 m i ll io n t o b e p a i d o u t.

And you

a tt a c h e d th e i n v o i c e th a t w e h a n d e d o u t e a r l i e r t h a t w a s p a id fo ll o w i n g
t h a t i n v o ic e . I f I lo o k a t th a t d a t e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t h e r g i v e e v id e n c e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

O k a y, s o r r y C h a ir.

Ye s , i f I l o o k a t th e

d a t e s th a t y o u l is t e d o n t h a t p a r a g r a p h , i t ’s th e 1 6 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 t h e
a g r e e m e n t is s i g n e d o n th e 3 1 s t .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, le t ’s d o i t th is w a y.

When you received the

in v o ic e w h e r e w a s t h e b u d g e t f o r th e p a y m e n t o f t h a t a m o u n t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

C h a ir, th e i n v o i c e w a s r e c e iv e d i n M a r c h

2 0 1 5 w h ic h w a s c o n c lu d i n g t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r 2 0 1 4 / 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I: A t t h a t s t a g e t h e D e p a r t m e n t d id n o t h a v e a
b u d g e t f o r th is p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: S o w e c o u l d n ’ t p r o c e s s th e i n v o ic e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n a ft e r t h e in v o ic e ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I :

W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f t e r th e H O D

p r e p a r e d a l e t te r t o . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e H O D p r e p a r e d a l e t t e r.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: To th e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m ie r r e q u e s t in g t h e
O ff ic e o f th e Pr e m i e r to p a y o n b e h a l f o f C o m m u n it y S a f e ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M s B u t h e l e z i , y o u w a n t t o d ir e c t u s t o th a t

le t t e r ?
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , is it t h e l e tt e r t h a t i s o n p a g e 6 5 u n d e r
t a b t h r e e , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D o y o u c o n fi r m th a t , Ms P h a t u d i?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s , t h e n fr o m t h e r e w h a t h a p p e n e d ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I : Fr o m th e r e w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e in v o ic e w a s
s u b m i tt e d t o t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r a n d i t w a s p a id o n th e . . .
( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y. S o t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u s a y M r M a h l a k o l e n g
H e a d o f y o u r D e p a r t m e n t s e n t t o t h e O ff i c e o f t h e P r e m ie r is s i m p ly a
c o v e r in g l e t te r t o u c h i n g t h e i n v o ic e s . Te ll u s h o w i t r e a d s t h a t l e t t e r.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I:

T h e l e tt e r is a d d r e s s e d t o th e a c ti n g

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l O ffi c e o f t h e Pr e m i e r ( i n a u d ib le ) : D e a r P r o f M o k g o r o
a tt a c h e d p l e a s e S A E x p r e s s d o c u m e n t s f o r y o u r u r g e n t a t t e n t i o n a n d
10

p r o c e s s in g o f p a y m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h a t l e t te r h a d

been sent?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I: A f t e r th e l e t te r w a s s u b m i t te d to t h e O ff ic e
o f th e P r e m ie r a n d t h e n w e h a v e p r o o f o f p a y m e n t. A c c o r d i n g t o t h e
p r o o f o f p a y m e n t th e c h e q u e d a te o r t h e a c t u a l p a y m e n t d a t e w a s t h e
26th March 2015.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , a n d is t h a t th e d a te t h a t a p p e a r s o n

the second page of this proof of payment?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s t h e p a g e th a t I m a r k e d a s 6 6 A .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t ’s t h e p a g e m a r k e d 6 6 A .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d w h a t w a s t h e a m o u n t th a t w a s p a id

fr o m t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: T h e a m o u n t is 5 0 m i ll io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, I d o n ’t h a v e a p a g e m a r k e d 6 6 A . I ’v e g o t
6 6 o n ly a n d t h e n 6 7 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir, th e r e is . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t th e n e w o n e y o u h a n d e d o u t ?
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : Ye s , i t ’s a d o c u m e n t I h a n d e d I h a n d e d o u t
e a r l ie r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , y o u h a v e n ’t a r r a n g e d f o r i t to b e p u t i n h e r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I a p o lo g iz e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

A n d w h a t i n fo r m e d y o u th a t t h is

p a y m e n t w a s m a d e fr o m t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

I f y o u l o o k a t th e fi r s t p a g e , th e r e a r e

h e a d i n g s th e r e . Th e h e a d i n g . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S u p p l i e r c o d e , S u p p li e r n a m e .
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

J a , s u p p li e r c o d e , s u p p l i e r n a m e , i n v o i c e

n u m b e r.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I:

In v o ic e li n e , c r e a t e d a t e , a u t h o r i s a t io n

d a t e , w h e r e i t s a y s D E P T i ts s h o r t fo r D e p a r t m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I:

And underneath there it says 01.

t h e v o t e n u m b e r fo r t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r.

Page 70 of 224

T h a t is

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: 0 1 i s t h e v o t e n u m b e r fo r t h e O ff ic e o f th e
P r e m i e r.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: Ye s . M s P h a tu d i , w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d
is t h a t o n t h e 1 6 t h o f M a r c h w h e n t h is le t t e r w a s w r i t te n t o t h e O ff i c e o f
t h e P r e m ie r i t w a s b e f o r e t h is a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A E x p r e s s w a s
c o n c l u d e d . H o w d o y o u e x p l a i n t h a t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I : C h a ir, I d o n o t k n o w h o w t h e i n v o ic e c a m e
b e f o r e th e c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

D o y o u k n o w i f t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r

h a d . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e m i n d y o u r s e lf t h e d a t e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d

t h e d a t e o f t h e in v o ic e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : T h e a g r e e m e n t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e 2 3 C h a ir,
it is s ig n e d o n p a g e 5 7 , t h e d a t e o n p a g e 5 7 i t ’s 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Th e d a te o f t h e l e t te r r e q u e s ti n g p a y m e n t

fr o m t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

L e t ’s s ta r t w i t h th e d a t e o f th e i n v o i c e , d o w e h a v e

that?
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

N o , w e d o n ’ t h a v e th e in v o ic e it s e l f .

h a v e t h e l e t t e r r e q u e s t in g p a y m e n t fr o m t h e O ffic e o f t h e P r e m ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d th a t l e t te r is d a t e d 1 6 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 71 of 224

We

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: A n d w e t h e n - t h a t l e t te r a p p e a r s u n d e r t a b
three on page 65.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e o n e w e ’v e j u s t ta lk e d a b o u t , y e a h .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e o n e t h a t w e ’v e j u s t lo o k e d a t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

And then we have the proof of payment

w h ic h M s P h a t u d i s a y s 0 1 i n d i c a t e s t h a t t h a t p a y m e n t c a m e fr o m
P r e m i e r o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

I t ’s a p a y m e n t o f 5 0 m il li o n r a n d . It ’s t h e

a m o u n t o n p a g e 2 , 5 0 m i ll i o n r a n d t h a t y o u r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir, th e a m o u n t i s 5 0 m il li o n r a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s r e fl e c t e d o n t h e i n v o ic e .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s t h e i n v o i c e fr o m S A E x p r e s s ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

A n d if y o u lo o k a t th e p a g e t h a t

f o ll o w s t h e a m o u n t C h a ir, t h e r e is p a y e e n u m b e r t h e n u n d e r s u r n a m e
a n d i n it i a l th e r e i s S A E x p r e s s . A n d l o o k i n g a t . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y. I ’ m tr y i n g t o l o o k . A r e y o u lo o k i n g a t 6 6 A
or 65?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 6 6 B n o w, th e r e i s S A E x p r e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w is 6 6 B t h e o l d 6 6 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I d o n ’t t h i n k I’ v e g o t 6 6 B .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

The new 66 it has 66 A and B, it should

h a v e t h r e e p a g e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, n o w I s e e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, under surname.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e r e i s . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e r e is s u r n a m e , S A E x p r e s s . S u r n a m e S A E x p r e s s ,
p a y e e n u m b e r s a y tr i p l e o r is i t 0 0 0 3 6 4 7 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . C h a ir, if y o u g o b a c k t o 6 6 A th e r e is a
d a t e t h a t a p p e a r s , it ’s o n t h e t h i r d li n e fr o m t h e to p o r t h e s e c o n d l i n e
t h a t i s w r i t te n i n b o ld . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: The 26 March 2015.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s , t h e d a te o f t h e 2 6 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 .

My

q u e s t io n t o M s P h a tu d i is t h a t t h e y ’r e a g r e e m e n t w a s o n ly c o n c lu d e d o n
t h e 3 1 s t . W h y w a s S A E x p r e s s p a i d b e f o r e t h e c o n c l u s io n o f th is o f th e
a g r e e m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I: C h a ir, I d o n o t h a v e th e a n s w e r fo r t h a t . I
20

d o n ’t k n o w w h y w a s i t p a id b e fo r e t h e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

W e r e y o u in v o lv e d i n a n y m a n n e r i n

p r o c e s s in g th is p a y m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I : N o , th e p a y m e n t w a s p r o c e s s e d i n a n o t h e r
d e p a r t m e n t.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t p r o c e s s e d i n th e P r e m i e r O ff ic e ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w o u l d y o u k n o w w h a t i t i s t h a t th e y w o u ld h a v e
h a d b e f o r e th e m b e fo r e t h e y p r o c e s s e d t h e p a y m e n t i n t h e Pr e m i e r
O ff ic e a p a r t fr o m t h e l e tt e r fr o m y o u r M E C - w a s i t y o u H O D ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r H O D ? J a , a p a r t f r o m t h e l e t te r a n d th e i n v o ic e s
d o y o u k n o w w h a t e ls e th e y m i g h t h a v e h a d b e fo r e t h e m ?
10

M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: N o , I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e a c c o r d in g to th a t l e tt e r, i s i t o n l y t h e

in v o ic e s t h a t y o u r H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t s e n t t o P r o f e s s o r M o k g o r o i n
t e r m s o f w h a t h e s a i d in th e l e t te r ?

D i d h e r e f e r t o i n v o i c e s o n ly a s

what he was annexing?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

I’ m n o t s u r e , C h a ir.

I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t

d o c u m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s g o t h e r e , I t h in k i ts p a g e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 6 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: 65.
20

M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: 6 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t ta c h e d p l e a s e f in d - o h a t t a c h e d p le a s e S A E x p r e s s
d o c u m e n ts f o r y o u r u r g e n t a t te n t io n a n d p r o c e s s i n g o f p a y m e n t. S o h e
s a y s w h a t h e w a s a t ta c h in g w a s S A E x p r e s s d o c u m e n t s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h a t d o c u m e n ts h e a tt a c h e d , y o u r

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I:

I’ m n o t s u r e C h a ir w h a t w a s a tt a c h e d , I

didn’t see.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W h a t a r e t h e c h a n c e s t h a t t h e O ff ic e o f t h e

P r e m i e r c o u l d h a v e b e e n fi n is h e d d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t d i d
n o t h a v e . I n o th e r w o r d s , w h a t a r e t h e c h a n c e s t h a t S A E x p r e s s m a y
h a v e s e n t d o c u m e n ts t o t h e Pr e m i e r O ffi c e w h ic h e x p l a i n e d w h a t t h is
5 0 m i ll io n r a n d i n v o ic e a ll a b o u t b u t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e ?
A r e th e r e w h a t a r e th e c h a n c e s th a t t h a t mi g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d ?
10

Yo u

d o n ’t k n o w ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I m e a n 5 0 m il li o n r a n d is n o t a s m a l l

amount.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t b e f o r e th a t a n y b o d y

a p p r o v e d th a t s u c h a n a m o u n t b e p a i d i n a g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t,
t h e y w o u l d w a n t t o k n o w t h a t i t is a n a m o u n t t h a t i s d u e a n d t h a t i t
w o u ld b e p r o p e r t o p a y i t .

A n d t h a t w o u ld h a v e r e q u ir e d c h e c k i n g a

v a r io u s d o c u m e n t s , I w o u ld i m a g i n e .
20

M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t y o u ’d e x p e c t a s w e ll ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t l ik e b e c a u s e y o u p ic k e d u p th a t y o u s h o u ld n ’t

p a y K o r e n e k a b e c a u s e y o u w e n t a n d l o o k e d f o r e s t a b l is h i n g w h a t th e
b a s is w o u l d b e to p a y th e m .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u l o o k e d a t t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d y o u r e a lis e d

t h a t th e a g r e e m e n t d id n o t m a k e a n y p r o v i s io n f o r p a y in g K o r e n e k a .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t s o m e b o d y e l s e ,

s o m e b o d y i n th e P r e m i e r O ff ic e w o u ld a ls o h a v e w a n t e d t o w o u l d h a v e
c a l l e d fo r v a r io u s d o c u m e n ts b e fo r e th e y d i d b u t y o u s a y y o u d o n ’ t
k n o w w h e t h e r th e y d i d o r t h e y d i d n ’ t .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Thank you. And you do you agree that at
t h e t i m e b e f o r e th e s i g n in g o f th is a g r e e m e n t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t d id n o t
h a v e a n y o b li g a t i o n t o p a y S A E x p r e s s ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: B e f o r e t h e s i g n i n g o f th e c o n t r a c t ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Ye s .

L e t ’s m o v e o n to th e p a y m e n t to

K o r e n e k a t h a t w a s to b e m a d e i n 2 0 1 6 , y o u d e a l w i t h i t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e w i t n e s s m u s t s a y m o r e th a n j u s t t h a t. W h y
20

do you say in the absence of an agreement of the agreement that was
s ig n e d l a t e i n t h e a b s e n c e o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n
b a s is f o r y o u r d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y S A E x p r e s s ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H AT U D I:

C h a ir, t h e S L A a c c o r d i n g t o m e is a

d o c u m e n t th a t c o n tr a c ts w h ic h w il l c o n fir m o r d ir e c t th a t c e r t a in
fi n a n c i a l o b l ig a ti o n s b e t w e e n t h e t w o p a r t i e s s h o u l d h a p p e n . S o i n th e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
a b s e n c e o f s u c h a d o c u m e n t th e n i t m e a n s t h e r e is n o th in g t h a t b in d s ,
t h a t i s b in d in g fo r a p a y m e n t t o b e m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a s a b a s is f o r p a y in g a n y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w o u ld

t h e r e h a v e t o b e a w r i tt e n a g r e e m e n t a l l th e t i m e o r m o s t o f t h e t i m e ?
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Al l th e ti m e t h e r e , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Al l th e ti m e t h e r e m u s t b e a w r i t t e n d o c u m e n t t h a t

shows what was agreed, should be done.
M S K U T LWA N O P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w b e f o r e t h e p a y m e n t o f
10

t h a t a m o u n t n o d o c u m e n t e x is t e d w h i c h s h o w e d a n y a g r e e m e n t
between your department and SA Express?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I w o u ld – I w o u l d s a y y e s C h a i r

because the signed agreement was signed on 30 March.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 3 1 M a r c h .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: 3 1 M a r c h .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: A n d t h e l e tt e r is d a t e d t h e 1 6 t h .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y.

P l e a s e m a k e s u r e t h a t w h ils t t h e w i t n e s s is

g iv i n g e v i d e n c e n o b o d y c a n j u s t w a lk t o h e r a n d fiv e h e r d o c u m e n ts .
O k a y, a lr i g h t . L e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u .

On paragraph 36 of your

s t a te m e n t – i t is o n p a g e 8 .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: 3 6 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

Yo u - y o u d e a l w i t h t h e i n v o ic e t h a t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m K o r e n e k a o n 7 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

Would you please take us through

w h a t h a p p e n e d u p o n r e c e i p t o f t h is – o f t h i s in v o ic e ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

On

7 December 2015

when

I

r e c e i v e d th e – w h e n t h e – j a - w h e n th e i n v o i c e f o r K o r e n e k a w a s
s u b m i tt e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
10

The

SLA

had

a lr e a d y

been

amended.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S L A b e in g S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: S e r v ic e – y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t w e h a v e b e e n ta lk in g a b o u t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C a n w e g o b a c k a li t tl e b i t? W o u l d th e p o s i ti o n
b e th a t s i n c e t h i s R 5 0 m il li o n w a s p a i d t h r o u g h t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f – t h e
O ff ic e o f th e Pr e m i e r …

20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u ld h a v e n o f u r t h e r d e a li n g s o r q u e s t io n s t o

r a i s e b e c a u s e it w a s n o lo n g e r t h r o u g h y o u r d e p a r t m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s s ir.

I t w a s ju s t t h i s s p e c i fi c

one because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t o n e .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s , y e s , y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. So in other words you – you would – you would
n o t – i t w o u l d n o t b e y o u r r e s p o n s i b il it y to p u r s u e t h e m a t t e r t o s a y b u t
h o w d i d th a t a m o u n t g e t p a id w h e n th e r e i s n o a g r e e m e n t …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t is a n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w o u ld h a v e i ts o w n C F O …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Pr o c e s s e s y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It s o w n p r o c e s s e s ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u .

Te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d u p o n

receiving this invoice on 7 December 2015.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: C h a ir u p o n r e c e iv in g o f t h is i n v o ic e
…
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Yo u m a y a l r e a d y h a v e th is i n y o u r p l a n

b u t i t w il l b e i m p o r ta n t th a t w e e s t a b l is h w h o i n t h e O ff ic e o f t h e
P r e m i e r a u t h o r i s e d th e p a y m e n t …
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o s o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: And what did they have in front of them …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o s o C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To j u s t i fy i n m a k in g t h a t d e c is i o n . O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank

you.

Ms Phatudi.

Page 79 of 224

Ye s

please

proceed

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

On 7 December an

in v o ic e f o r K o r e n e k a w a s r e c e iv e d f o r a n a m o u n t o f 2 0 . 6 m i ll io n . T h e
P r o g r a m M a n a g e r t h a t is th e C h i e f D ir e c t o r r e s p o n s i b l e f o r Tr a n s p o r t
O p e r a t io n s i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t p r e p a r e d a p a y m e n t c o n t r o l f o r m –
p a y m e n t r e q u is i ti o n f o r m …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

F o r – t o r e q u e s t p a y m e n t f o r th is

in v o ic e a n d t h a t w a s a p p r o v e d b y th e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t b u t a t t h e
ti m e b e c a u s e i t w a s a n e w f i n a n c ia l y e a r.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I t w a s 2 0 1 5 /2 0 1 6 fi n a n c i a l y e a r.

T h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d a - a b u d g e t f o r th a t a n d th e S L A w a s s i g n e d . S o
t h e - t h e p a y m e n t w a s p r o c e s s e d b a s e d o n th o s e d o c u m e n ts .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d th a t a m o u n t w a s p a i d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d th e n i n 2 0 1 6 y o u r e c e iv e d a n o t h e r
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e th a t – I a m s o r r y. S o K o r e n e k a ’s in v o ic e h a d
a r r iv e d in M a r c h t o g e t h e r w i th t h e o n e f o r S A E x p r e s s ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir. T h e – y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e c a u s e o f t h e fa c t t h a t y o u h a d r e f u s e d to p a y.
I t w a s n o t p a i d u n ti l a f t e r th e a m e n d m e n t t o t h e a g r e e m e n t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And then it was paid in December 2015?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

Now when that one was paid did it come

back to you? The process for its payment did it come back to you? Did
s o m e b o d y c o m e a n d s a y o k a y n o w h e r e is a n a m e n d e d a g r e e m e n t y o u
c a n n o w p a y. Yo u h a v e n o – y o u h a v e n o g r o u n d s to r e f u s e .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h e r e w a s a r e v is e d

S L A a tt a c h e d a n d I f e l t I d id n o t h a v e a n y f u r th e r g r o u n d s t o r e f u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

S o y o u w e r e t h e n c o m p e ll e d t o m a k e t h a t

p a y m e n t in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 ?
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

I s th a t t h e i n v o i c e t h a t is a t ta c h e d u n d e r

Ta b 5 ?
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O n p a g e 1 - 1 3 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u a s k h e r w h e t h e r s h e w a s c o m p e l le d ?

What

w a s y o u r q u e s ti o n t o h e r ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

I a m a s k i n g i f s h e – w a s s h e th e n

c o m p e l l e d o r m a y b e I s h o u l d r e p h r a s e C h a ir. Yo u t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S h e s a id s h e h a d n o g r o u n d s t o r e f u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u w e r e n o t c o m p e l le d – w e r e y o u ? Yo u p a id .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I p a i d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t c o m p e l le d ? Yo u l o o k y o u – y o u a r e n o t
s u r e w h e t h e r t o s a y y o u w e r e c o m p e ll e d o r n o t c o m p e ll e d . I a m – s h e
a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r y o u w e r e c o m p e ll e d t o p a y a n d y o u s a id y e s …

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M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t – t h a t s u r p r is e d m e b e c a u s e I d i d n o t e x p e c t
y o u t o s a y y o u w e r e c o m p e ll e d .

S o I a m n o w w a n t i n g to fi n d o u t

w h e t h e r y o u m e a n t t o s a y y o u w e r e c o m p e ll e d o r y o u d i d n o t t h in k t h a t
answer through?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: C h a ir, I – I p a id o n t h e b a s is o f th e
f a c t t h a t th e S L A w a s t h e r e a n d t h e p r o g r a m a n d th e H O D h a d
approved.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u c o m p e ll e d t h e n to p a y o r n o t?
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u p a i d o f y o u r o w n v o li t io n b e c a u s e y o u s a w

n o t h i n g w r o n g w i th t h e in v o ic e n o w. Is it n o t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o I j u s t w a n t t o k n o w w h a t th e p o s i ti o n is . I
a m – I a m n o t p u t t in g y o u in a c o r n e r. I ju s t w a n t to k n o w b e c a u s e i f
y o u s a y y o u a r e – y o u w e r e c o m p e l le d t h e n w e n e e d t o k n o w w h o
c o m p e l l e d y o u a n d w h y a n d s o o n b u t i f y o u s a y n o I w a s n o t c o m p e ll e d
I w a s s a t is fi e d t h a t t h i s w a s n o w a p a y m e n t t h a t c o u l d b e m a d e a n d I
made it.
T h e n w e m u s t k n o w y o u w e r e n o t c o m p e l le d .

20

That is why I

a m a s k i n g y o u . Yo u u n d e r s ta n d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir I u n d e r s ta n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t . S o t h e – t h e la s t p o s i ti o n is th a t y o u –
you were not compelled?

Yo u p a i d b e c a u s e y o u s a w n o t h i n g w r o n g

with it?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d o n p a r a g r a p h 3 7 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e
in v o ic e th a t y o u r e c e iv e d f r o m K o r e n e k a i n 2 0 1 6 .

Just tell us what

happened following receiving this invoice in 2015?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: H m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 2 0 1 6 – I a m s o r r y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

O k a y.

C h a ir t h e n e x t i n v o ic e th a t

w a s r e c e i v e d f r o m K o r e n e k a a m o u n ti n g t o 1 5 .8 m i ll i o n w a s r e c e iv e d a s
10

in d i c a t e d a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

What paragraph of the statement

M s B u th e l e z i ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s p a r a g r a p h 3 7 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 3-7?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

B e f o r e – th e i n v o ic e

was not paid because the department received – was served with a
le t t e r f r o m t h e a t t o r n e y s r e p r e s e n ti n g Ms J C P h ir i .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o w a s t h is J C P h ir i ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: M s J C P h ir i a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l e tt e r
r e c e i v e d w a s a p a r t n e r o r – ja – a p a r tn e r t o – in K o r e n e k a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h i s i n v o ic e ? Wa s it
paid?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

T h i s i n v o ic e w a s n o t p a id .

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It w a s

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
r e fe r r e d to – t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s i n s tr u c t e d t o w i t h h o ld p a y m e n t u n t il
t h e m a t te r h a d b e e n r e s o lv e d b e tw e e n th e p a r ti e s .

S o t o d a te i t h a s

n o t b e e n p a id .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h e le t t e r – w h a t w a s i t i n fo r m in g t h e

d e p a r t m e n t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t o d a t e . Yo u m e a n u p to t o d a y it s t il l …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a s n o t b e e n p a i d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir e v e n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: To d a t e y e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Is i t t h e l e tt e r t h a t is a p p e a r i n g u n d e r
Ta b 6 o n p a g e 1 - 1 4 – 1 - 1 5 ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is t h e l e t t e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Is i t t h e l e t te r t h a t w a s i n fo r m in g y o u o f t h e
p e n d i n g l e g a l li t ig a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o p a r ti e s ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is t h e l e t t e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

O k a y, t h a n k y o u a n d o n p a g e 3 0 – o n

p a r a g r a p h 3 8 - th e s a m e p a g e – y o u d e a l w i t h Va lo t e c k p a y m e n t . W h o
20

w a s Va l o te c k ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

C h a ir o n – s o m e t i m e i n J u n e I

r e c e i v e d a n e m a il – a n in v o ic e b y e m a i l f r o m D a v i d K a lis il ir a w h i c h w a s
a n – a n in v o ic e fo r Va l o t e c k . I a t t h a t s ta g e d id n o t k n o w w h o Va lo t e c k
was.

S o I t h e n f o r w a r d e d t h a t in v o ic e b y e m a il to th e P r o g r a m

Tr a n s p o r t R e g u l a ti o n s . B y p r o g r a m I m e a n th e e n d u s e r …

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A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

A n d I s p e c if ic a l ly a s k e d t h e m w h o

w a s Va l o te c k w a s a n d w h e th e r w e h a v e a n e w a p p o i n t e d c o m p a n y.

I

la t e r g o t a r e s p o n s e b y e m a il o n t h e s a m e d a y …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

F r o m Mr ( in d is ti n c t) w h o w a s th e

A ir p o r t M a n a g e r a t th e ti m e …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t d i d i t i n f o r m y o u ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
10

H e i n f o r m e d m e th a t h e s p o k e to

M r Br ia n v a n W y k o n th a t d a y a n d h e s a y s h e – h e s a id in t h e e m a il
t h a t h e r a is e d t h o s e c o n c e r n s . M r v a n W y k a d v i s e d t h a t i n d e e d th e r e i s
a new management company …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: A n d p a p e r w o r k to th a t e ff e c t w il l b e
p r e s e n t e d t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d h e s a i d b e fo r e th e e n d o f b u s i n e s s o n
t h a t d a y. I t h e n l a t e r – I d o n o t – I d o n o t r e c a l l a f te r h o w l o n g w h e th e r
it w a s t w o d a y s o r h o w m a n y d a y s a ft e r th a t I g o t a l e t t e r – a c o p y o f a
le t t e r f r o m t h e O ffi c e o f t h e H O D .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

20

Is i t t h e l e t te r t h a t a p p e a r s u n d e r Ta b 7 –

page 129?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e i n v o ic e th a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t n o w i s i t o n e

y o u m e n t io n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 3 8 fr o m Va l o t e c k - Va l o te c k ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir i t is …
CHAIRPERSON: 15 850 …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir th a t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e a m e n d m e n t t h a t y o u to l d u s a b o u t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir th a t i s t h e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: That amount seems to be the same as the amount in
p a r a g r a p h 3 7 t h a t y o u s a i d h a s n o t b e e n p a i d u p to n o w ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s ju s t – w a s t h a t ju s t a c o in c i d e n c e ? It is e x a c tly
the same.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I t is t h e e q u a l a m o u n t . Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y s e n t – w e l l t h e o n e i n v o i c e f o r 1 5 8 5 0 m il li o n
c a m e fr o m K o r e n e k a a n d a n o t h e r o n e f o r t h e s a m e a m o u n t c a m e fr o m
Va lo t e c k ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a y b e i f I m a y. I f y o u m a y c la r i fy w h a t w a s
t h e K o r e n e k a in v o ic e m e a n t f o r ? F o r w h a t p e r i o d w a s i t m e a n t f o r ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Th e K o r e n e k a i n v o i c e w a s f o r t h e

2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 f in a n c i a l y e a r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F o r h o w lo n g ? W a s i t f o r t h e w h o le y e a r –
20

for …?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: F o r t h e y e a r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d K o r e n e k a w a s s e r v ic i n g w h ic h a ir p o r t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s t h e a g r e e m e n t i n v o lv i n g K o r e n e k a n o t o n e f o r

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
b o t h o r w a s th e r e – w e r e t h e r e s e p a r a te a g r e e m e n ts ?

I cannot

r e m e m b e r n o w.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I t is s e p a r a t e a g r e e m e n ts C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s e p a r a t e a g r e e m e n ts ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t K o r e n e k a w a s t o b e in v o lv e d in b o t h a ir p o r t s –

P il a n e s b e r g a n d M a fi k e n g ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I do not remember for which

a ir p o r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Considering

the

evidence

of

Mr P h ir i

K o r e n e k a w a s s e r v ic in g b o t h M a fi k e n g a n d P il a n e s b e r g w h e n th is
p r o j e c t s ta r t e d .
20

L e t u s g o t o t h e l e t t e r t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m

M r v a n W y k . I t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 1 2 9 o f t h e b u n d l e u n d e r Ta b 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Before that you said that the invoice relating to

K o r e n e k a f o r 1 5 8 5 0 m i ll io n w a s f o r t h e 2 0 1 5 /2 0 1 6 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
t h a t r i g h t o r w a s it j u s t fo r 2 0 1 6 ?

Is

Was it countered according to

fi n a n c i a l y e a r o r j u s t th e c a l e n d a r y e a r ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I t – i t is s u p p o s e d t o b e c o u n t e d

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
f o r f i n a n c ia l y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y i t w a s f o r 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 f i n a n c i a l y e a r fo r

Koreneka?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: 2 0 1 6 …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 2 0 1 6 / 2 0 1 7 .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2016/2017?
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e o n e fo r Va l o t e c k w a s it f o r t h e s a m e f in a n c ia l
y e a r o r n o t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I t w a s f o r th e s a m e fi n a n c i a l y e a r

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n f o r t h e s a m e s e r v ic e s – d o

you know?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I w il l n e e d t o c o n f ir m b u t I – I w i ll
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll n e e d t o c o n f ir m ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I t h i n k i t w o u l d b e fo r d i ff e r e n t

a ir p o r ts . I n e e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I n e e d to c o n fir m .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : S a m e s e r v ic e s i n d i ff e r e n t a ir p o r ts ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: D i ff e r e n t a ir p o r ts y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . I f y o u c a n g o to a l e t t e r o n p a g e 1 2 9
is t h a t t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g – y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h e le t t e r th a t I w a s

r e fe r r i n g t o w a s t h e l e t te r th a t c o n fi r m e d t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t th a t – o r
t h a t n o ti fi e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t th a t Va lo t e c k Fa c i li ti e s M a n a g e m e n t w a s
10

a p p o i n t e d f o r – ja – fo r M a f ik e n g I n t e r n a ti o n a l A i r p o r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d t h e i n v o ic e t h a t y o u – y o u w e r e

r e fe r r i n g t o is i t t h e i n v o ic e t h a t is o n p a g e 1 2 8 ?

Just go backwards

one page.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th e r e i s a n i n v o i c e fr o m Va l o t e c k f o r

R 1 5 8 5 0 m il li o n .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d th is a m o u n t – 1 5 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h e in v o ic e i s t h e o n e i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r
20

t h e le t t e r ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: B e f o r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : J u s t b e fo r e t h e l e t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O n p a g e 1 - 2 - 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h i s a m o u n t o f 1 5 8 5 0 w a s i t f o r th e
w h o le y e a r o r d o e s i t c o v e r p a r t o f th e y e a r ? D o y o u k n o w ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e – t h e a m o u n t o f 1 5 …
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 1 5 8 5 0 .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I t is f o r t h e e n t ir e – it i s s u p p o s e d
t o b e f o r t h e e n t ir e fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . I f t h e n Va l o te c k s u b m it t e d t h i s i n v o i c e
in J u n e 2 0 1 6 y o u h a d a lr e a d y g o t t e n a n i n v o ic e f r o m K o r e n e k a f o r t h e
10

s a m e a m o u n t . W h a t i n fo r m e d – o r m a y b e I s h o u ld fir s t a s k – w a s t h i s
in v o ic e p a i d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e o n e f o r … ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e o n e f o r Va l o te c k .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s th e o n e f o r Va lo t e c k w a s p a id .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

W h a t th e n i n fo r m e d y o u r d e c is i o n t o

p a y th is in v o ic e b e c a u s e y o u a lr e a d y r e c e i v e d a n o t h e r i n v o ic e fr o m
K o r e n e k a t h a t w a s s ti ll p e n d i n g ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

C h a ir

the

–

the

program

r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e f u n c ti o n c o n f ir m e d t h a t th e Va l o te c k p a y m e n t w a s
20

f o r M a f ik e n g A ir p o r t a n d t h e r e w a s – I d o n o t h a v e t h e l e t t e r i n t h e fi l e
here

but

there

was

c o m m u n ic a ti o n

r e s p o n s i b l e f o r – f o r P i la n e s b e r g .

to

say

Koreneka

was

now

S o t h i s p a y m e n t w a s fo r M a f ik e n g

A ir p o r t a n d t h e c l a i m f o r K o r e n e k a t h e n w o u l d b e fo r Pi l a n e s b e r g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. S o t h e 1 5 8 5 0 c h a r g e d b y K o r e n e k a
is f o r P i la n e s b e r g a n d t h is w a s fo r M a f ik e n g ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e t h a t t h e l e t t e r fr o m S A E x p r e s s w h ic h is d a te d

J u n e 2 0 1 6 w it h o u t g iv in g t h e a c t u a l d a t e s a y s t o th e H e a d o f y o u r
d e p a r t m e n t t h a t th e y w e r e n o t i fy i n g t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f t h e a p p o in t m e n t
o f Va l o te c k F a c il it i e s M a n a g e m e n t a s t h e h a n d li n g c o m p a n y f o r
M a f ik e n g In t e r n a t io n a l A ir p o r t a n d t h e n i t s a y s :
“ S A E x p r e s s h a s s e n t t h r o u g h t h e s i g n e d c o n tr a c t t o
t h e d e p a r t m e n t. ”
One, do we know when – I see there is a stamped – date

10

s t a m p t h e r e in t e r m s o f p a y m e n t b u t I c a n n o t r e a d i ts – it s – o n e c a n n o t
s e e t h e d a te .

A t t h is s ta g e – a t th e s t a g e o f t h e p a y m e n t o f th is

a m o u n t o f R 1 5 8 5 0 mi ll i o n t o Va l o te c k w a s th e r e a lr e a d y a – a c o n tr a c t
b e t w e e n Va lo t e c k a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

C h a ir t h e d e p a r t m e n t d i d n o t h a v e

a c o n tr a c t w i t h t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va l o te c k .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: M a n a g in g c o m p a n ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t h a d g iv e n t h a t p o w e r t o S A E x p r e s s ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s .

They were appointed by SA

Express.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

A t t h e t i m e o f p a y m e n t h a d – w a s th e r e – h a d t h e

d e p a r t m e n t b e i n g n o t if i e d o ffi c i a l ly t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e w c o m p a n y t h a t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
SA Express had appointed?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

It i s t h e l e t t e r t h a t w e

h a v e ju s t t a l k e d a b o u t.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n – w h e n p a y m e n t w a s m a d e t h is l e tt e r h a d

a lr e a d y a r r iv e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o – s o w e – w e c a n ta k e i t t h a t t h a t le t t e r
a l t h o u g h n o t d a te d w a s r e c e iv e d p r io r t o …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: P a y m e n t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : P r i o r t o 7 J u l y 2 0 1 6 w h ic h s e e m s t o b e w h e n p a y m e n t
w a s m a d e . Is th a t r i g h t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , a l r i g h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you and on paragraph 39 you were

d e a li n g w it h t h a t – t h a t w a s a p p o in t i n g – i n f o r m in g y o u o f t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f Va l o t e c k ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : L e t u s g o t o p a r a g r a p h 4 0 .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M s P h a t u d i . O n p a r a g r a p h 4 0 y o u d e a l w i th
M A M C O . P l e a s e te ll u s w h o w a s M A M C O ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

M y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir.

I a m l o o k in g

f o r t h e l e t t e r - th e y d o n o t a s s is t m e - to r e s p o n d t o th e q u e s ti o n w h o is
M A M C O . O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I f I m a y a s s is t . L o o k a t p a g e 1 - 3 5 .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: 1 - 3 5 y e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : U n d e r Ta b 9 .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s m a ’ a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

I t i s a le t t e r fr o m S A E x p r e s s d i r e c t e d t o

Mr Chuma.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir th e d e p a r t m e n t la t e r

r e c e i v e d a le t t e r d a t e d 2 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 w h e r e – w h e r e i t – fr o m S A
E x p r e s s . In f o r m i n g t h e H O D t h a t S A E x p r e s s h a s a p p o i n t e d a c o m p a n y
- M a fik e n g A i r p o r t M a n a g e m e n t C o m p a n y M A M C O – a s th e c o m p a n y t h a t
10

w i ll b e d o i n g g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s a t M a f ik e n g Ai r p o r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o – w h o – fr o m w h o t h is l e tt e r w a s
fr o m ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: H m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A t S A E x p r e s s ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Th e le t t e r w a s fr o m S A E x p r e s s

a n d it w a s s i g n e d b u t i t s i g n e d b y t h e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r
I n a t i N ts h a n g a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

O k a y a n d o n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 y o u d e a l w i th

t h e p a y m e n t o f 1 5 8 mi ll i o n t h a t w a s m a d e t o PA M C O .
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: A n d t h e n PA M C O i s a m a n a g e m e n t
c o m p a n y w h ic h w a s a p p o in t e d a r o u n d – y e s – a r o u n d t h e s a m e ti m e .
M a y b e th e r e w a s t w o m o n t h s o r a m o n t h a p a r t …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Fr o m t h e M A M C O a p p o in t m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . L e t u s fir s t d e a l w i t h t h e p a y m e n t t h a t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
w a s m a d e t o M A M C O fo r R 1 5 . 8 m i lli o n a t K P 1 0 .
t h is p a y m e n t m a d e fo r ?

F o r w h ic h y e a r w a s

T h e p a y m e n t p a c k a p p e a r s u n d e r Ta b 1 0 o n

page 137.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P a y m e n t p a c k .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e – t h e a m o u n t p a i d f o r M A M C O
w a s f o r t h e 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 f i n a n c ia l y e a r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d i t w a s f o r w h ic h a ir p o r t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I t w a s M a f ik e n g Ai r p o r t .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. T h e n o n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h y o u d e a l
w i t h PA M C O – th e c o m p a n y th a t y o u s a i d w a s a p p o i n t e d a r o u n d th e
s a m e ti m e .

W h o – h o w w e r e y o u i n f o r m e d o f t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h is

company?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e – t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r –
M r I n a ti N t s h a n g a – w r o t e a l e t te r to t h e H O D f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
C o m m u n i ty, S a fe ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t . A t t h e t i m e it w a s A c t in g B u t i C h u m a
a n d i n fo r m in g h i m t h a t S A E x p r e s s h a s a p p o i n te d a m a n a g e m e n t
c o m p a n y e ff e c t iv e f r o m 1 6 A p r i l 2 0 1 7 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Is t h a t th e l e t t e r t h a t a p p e a r s u n d e r Ta b 11
20

on page 149?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir th a t i s t h e o n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d f o r w h ic h a ir p o r t w a s t h is c o m p a n y

appointed for …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h e …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A c c o r d i n g t o th a t l e t t e r ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

A c c o r d i n g t o t h is l e t te r it w a s f o r

P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d i t a p p e a r s t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d a n

in v o ic e fo r t h is c o m p a n y a s w e ll a n d t h e p a y m e n t p a c k is a t t a c h e d a s
KP12.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h e n w a s t h is in v o ic e r e c e iv e d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Th e i n v o ic e w a s – t h e i n v o ic e w a s
d a t e d 2 2 M a y.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d th e p a y m e n t – w h e n i t w a s

r e l e a s e d ? I t is o n t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h 4 3 M s P h a t u d i .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: S o r r y C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h e d a t e is o n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 .

The date

w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h e p a y m e n t .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

O h i t w a s 2 8 J u n e – t h e r e le a s e –

t h e r e l e a s e d a t e o f th e p a y m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d th e le t te r o n p a g e 1 4 9 s t a te s t h a t
t h is - t h is c o m p a n y w a s a p p o i n te d fo r P i la n e s b e r g .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t i f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 6 1 o n t h a t p a y m e n t
p a c k f o r M A M C O t h e c o n t r a c t a t t a c h e d – f o r PA M C O s o r r y – i t s a y s –
o n p a g e 1 6 1 i f y o u l o o k u n d e r t h e t h ir d l in e t h e r e – t h e r e is a li n e t h e r e
t h a t s a y s – th a t d e a l s w i th lo c a t io n .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

I t s a y s f o r l o c a ti o n N o r th W e s t P r o v i n c e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A ir p o r t O p e r a ti o n s a n d t h e n is s a y s M a f ik e n g .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ja.

C h a ir, I – I d o n o t k n o w

w h e t h e r th is is a m i s ta k e o r w h a t b u t w h a t I k n o w i s th a t PA M C O i s
s e r v ic in g P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o t h a t M a fik e n g c o n t r a c t w a s s u p p o s e d t o
P il a n e s b e r g n o t M a fi k e n g ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s m a ’ a m – y e s C h a ir.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o PA M C O w a s s e r v ic i n g …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: P il a n e s b e r g .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P i l a n e s b e r g ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s n o w a s a m a t t e r o f fa c t?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s

a n d t h o s e a r e a ll c o m p a n i e s

or

m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n ie s th a t y o u p a i d fo r t h e d u r a t io n o f t h is c o n t r a c t .
Is i t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

E a r li e r o n i n y o u r e v id e n c e y o u

t e s ti fi e d t h a t w h e n I a s k e d y o u w h o w a s n e g o ti a ti n g t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l
Agreement for SA Express your answer …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W a s – i t w a s M r v a n W y k .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Oh.

C h a ir t h a t w a s a m i s ta k e .

Page 96 of 224

I

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h o u g h t h e q u e s t io n w a s w h o w a s t h e – t h e c o n ta c t o r w h o w a s
r e p r e s e n ti n g S A E x p r e s s i n m e e ti n g s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly o n th e S L A . A s a
p o i n t o f c o r r e c t i o n t h e S A L w a s s ig n e d o n b e h a l f o f t h e S A E x p r e s s b y
the CEO.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: In a ti …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N ts h a n g a .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: M r N ts h a n g a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

W h ic h m e e t in g s d i d M r v a n W y k r e p r e s e n t

SA Express?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: F ir s t ly a t th e S u n C i t y M e e t i n g – h e
is t h e o n e w h o w a s m a k i n g a p r e s e n t a ti o n o n b e h a lf o f S A E x p r e s s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

M s P h a t u d i c o n s i d e r i n g t h e fi g u r e s

t h a t w e a g r e e d t o a n d t h a t w e r e p a id t o v a r io u s m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n i e s
a n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr P h ir i – y o u w e r e h e r e a t t h e h e a r in g y e s te r d a y.
T h a t th e s e fi g u r e s w e r e in f la t e d o r th e y w e r e h ig h e r t h a n t h e – t h e
g a z e t t e d f ig u r e s f o r – f o r s i m il a r s e r v ic e s . W h a t is y o u r – y o u r v ie w o r
y o u r o p in io n o n t h e – o n t h a t is s u e ?
20

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

C h a i r a s i n d ic a te d w h e n I w a s

t a lk in g to th e a d v ic e o n w e r e g o i n g o u t o n t e n d e r t h a t a s a d e p a r t m e n t
a t t h e t i m e w e d id n o t h a v e – w e h a d n o t h a d a n y c o n tr a c t - a v i a ti o n
c o n tr a c t b e f o r e .

S o t h is w a s t h e f ir s t c o n tr a c t a n d w e d i d n o t k n o w

w h a t is o n t h e m a r k e t , w h a t w e r e t h e g o i n g r a t e s a n d t h e p r e s e n ta t io n
t h a t w a s m a d e b y Mr P h ir i y e s te r d a y i t w a s fo r t h e fir s t t i m e t h a t I

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
h e a r d a b o u t t h e r a t e s th a t a r e o n t h e m a r k e t.
S o y e s a s c o m p a r e d to w h a t h e w a s p r e s e n t in g t h e s e
a m o u n ts a r e h u g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d y o u – a r e y o u s a y in g th a t a s t h e

d e p a r t m e n t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f t h e a m o u n t s th a t o u g h t to b e
c h a r g e d fo r s u c h s e r v i c e s ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I w a s n o t a w a r e C h a ir o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e s o c a ll e d g a z e t te d r a te s ?
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( B a c k g r o u n d n o is e ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

P l e a s e t e l l u s a b o u t w h a t le d t o t h e

g r o u n d i n g o f S A E x p r e s s fl ig h ts in M a f ik e n g a n d P i l a n e s b e r g .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

The grounding of the SA Express

o n 2 4 M a y m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t i t – it w a s g r o u n d e d d u e t o
n o n - c o m p li a n c e

to

r e g u la t io n s .

However

I

do

not

have

more

in f o r m a ti o n o n th a t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

And the – the – as the department was it

a w a r e th a t t h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n r e g u l a ti o n s t h a t h a d to b e c o m p li e d w i th
20

b e f o r e th is p r o j e c t w a s in i ti a te d ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

T h e – t h e – j a – t h e a ir p o r t

m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e Tr a n s p o r t R e g u l a t i o n s C h i e f D ir e c t o r a te w o u l d
h a v e k n o w n o f t h e r e g u l a t i o n s fo r p o li c i e s o r d ir e c t iv e s t h a t r e g u la t e
a v i a ti o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ms P h a t u d i y o u r e c e i v e d a n o ti c e i n t e r m s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
o f R u l e 3 . 3 i n fo r m i n g y o u t h a t y o u w e r e i m p lic a t e d – i n f a c t y o u w e r e
h e r e a t th e h e a r in g – b y t h e e v id e n c e o f Mr N g w e n y a i n t h a t
M r N g w e n y a t e s ti f ie d t h a t o n th e m e e ti n g t h a t h e h a d w i t h Ms T l a ts a n a
w h o w o u ld b e o n e o f o u r w i t n e s s e s h e w a s – h e l is te n e d t o v o ic e
recordings.
I n th o s e r e c o r d i n g s i t w a s m e n t i o n e d th a t y o u w e r e o n e o f t h e
p e o p l e w h o w a s to b e p a i d o r w h o g o t fi n a n c i a l b e n e f i t fr o m M r v a n W y k
( b a c k g r o u n d n o i s e ) . I a m a s k i n g fr o m w h a t w a s p a i d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t
to you.
10

M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

I c o n fir m t h a t I w a s

s e r v e d w i th a R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e a s y o u i n d ic a t e d .

I a ls o h a d a n

o p p o r t u n i ty t o li s t e n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g s w h e r e i n I u n d e r s t o o d t h e c o n t e n t
– t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e r e c o r d i n g t o b e s a y i n g o r a l le g i n g t h a t - w h o e v e r
w a s t a lk i n g o n th a t r e c o r d i n g – a ll e g i n g t h a t t h e y n e e d t o p a y t h e C F O
a m o n g s t o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t h e m e n ti o n e d . I n e e d t o – t o c a te g o r i c a ll y
s t a te t h a t I n e v e r h a d a n y o n e o n o n e m e e ti n g s w i t h a n y o f t h e p e o p le
m e n ti o n e d i n th a t a ll e g a t i o n t h a t i s i n Mr … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:
20

In

–

b o th

in

the

recorded

c o n v e r s a ti o n a n d i n t h e a ff id a v i t o f M r …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M r v a n W y k ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: N o , n o th e a ffi d a v i t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M r N g w e n y a ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: J a , o f Mr N g w e n y a b e c a u s e w h a t I
w a s g iv e n w a s th e a ffi d a v i t o f M r N g w e n y a a n d i t – i t s ta t e d …

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

Ja.

It s ta t e d t h a t i t w a s a

c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n M s T l a t s a n a a n d Mr v a n W y k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

I k n o w M s T la ts a n a b e c a u s e w e

c o m e fr o m M a f ik e n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

She

is

a

businesswoman

in

M a f ik e n g . I k n o w h e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

M r v a n W y k I o n ly s a w h i m f o r th e

fir s t t i m e w h e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s c o n tr a c ti n g o r w a s e n g a g in g w i t h
S A E x p r e s s f o r t h is c o n tr a c t .
r e c e i v e d a n y m o n e y.

I n e e d t o c o n fir m C h a ir t h a t I n e v e r

I w a s n e v e r o ffe r e d a n y m o n e y.

I never asked

a n y b o d y t o a s k f o r m o n e y o n m y b e h a lf f r o m a n y – fr o m t h e s e p e o p l e o r
a n y o f th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s th a t s e r v e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
S o t h i s – th is a l l e g a ti o n i s n o t tr u e . I h a v e n e v e r r e c e iv e d . I
w a s n e v e r p r o m is e d . I n e v e r a s k e d f o r m o n e y f r o m a n y b o d y, y e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
20

Ye s .

Ms P h a t u d i s e e i n g t h a t t h i s ir r e g u l a r

c o n tr a c t w a s b e in g c o n c l u d e d b y y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a t t h e ti m e w h y y o u
d i d n o t r e p o r t to a n y o n e w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t ?
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I:

C h a ir I d id n o t k n o w. I w o u ld n o t

k n o w w h o t o r e p o r t t o b e c a u s e a s I m e n ti o n e d t h e d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t
w e r e i n v o lv e d – Tr e a s u r y w a s t h e r e , O ff i c e o f th e Pr e m i e r w a s t h e r e .
S o I r e a lly h a d n o – I w o u l d n o t k n o w w h o t o r e p o r t t o , y e s C h a ir.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Chair

M s P h a tu d i

has

prepared

and

a ffi d a v i t . I t h a s b e e n a d d e d t o th e b u n d le in r e s p o n s e t o t h e R u l e 3 . 3 .
I t – i t is a p p e a r in g fr o m p a g e 3 7 8 o f t h e b u n d l e u p to 3 8 0 , t h a n k y o u .
C h a ir t h a t w il l b e a ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s – t h e a ff id a v i t - w h a t d o e s th e a ffi d a v it s a y ?

Does it say what she has just said?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . I t is s a y i n g w h a t s h e h a s ju s t s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S h e is d e n y in g …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e – a r e t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s l o o k i n g in t o th e m a t te r …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To s e e – b e c a u s e i f t h e r e is a n a l le g a ti o n t h a t s h e

w a s t o b e p a i d th a t s h o u ld b e l o o k e d i n t o b e c a u s e i f s o m e b o d y w a s
f a ls e l y a ll e g i n g th a t s h e w a s p a r t o f a n a r r a n g e m e n t i n t e r ms o f w h ic h
s h e w a s t o b e p a id m o n ie s t h a t w e r e u n l a w f u l .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t s h o u l d b e l o o k e d i n to a n d i f s h e d i d i n d e e d

r e c e i v e m o n e y o r w a s p a r ty t o s u c h a n a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t s h o u l d a l s o b e
lo o k e d i n t o .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w e n o w h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e o n e w i tn e s s o r

r a th e r w h e r e t h e r e is s o m e a ll e g a t i o n .

She has come and taken the

witness stand and under oath said she never received anything.

She

n e v e r a s k e d a n y b o d y t o p a y h e r a n y t h i n g . S o w h a t it m e a n s is t h a t t h a t
s h o u l d b e l o o k e d a n d in v e s ti g a t e d a n d u l ti m a t e ly s o th a t – s o t h a t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
u l ti m a t e ly a p r o n o u n c e m e n t c a n b e m a d e w h e t h e r s h e d i d o r s h e d id
n o t a n d i f s h e d i d n o t th e n th e p e r s o n w h o m a d e th a t a l le g a ti o n f a ls e ly
n e e d s to b e – t o d e a l w i t h t h a t, o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t w i ll b e lo o k e d i n to C h a ir, t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir t h a t w i ll b e a l l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Q u e s t io n s t h a t I h a v e fo r t h i s w i tn e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much M s Phatudi for coming to share
10

evidence

and

what

–

what

you

know

and

so

on

about

these

tr a n s a c ti o n s . Yo u m a y b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k . T h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s w ill
lo o k i n t o t h is a ll e g a t io n …
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h a t i s fi n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I a m s u r e y o u w il l c o m e b a c k i f y o u a r e a s k e d t o
come back.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: I w il l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir I h a v e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

G o t t e n c o n fir m a t io n t h a t th e i n fo r m a ti o n

r e l a ti n g t o t h e p a y m e n t o f R 1 5 m il li o n h a s a lr e a d y b e e n r e q u e s t e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A t t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r N o r t h W e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e r e q u e s t w a s m a d e o n 2 4 M a y t h i s y e a r.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

We have not received any response as at

yet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y C h a i r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . T h a t is – t h a t is i m p o r ta n t . W e n e e d
to know how it got to be paid.

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

Yo u a r e e x c u s e d

Ms Phatudi.
M S K U T LWA N O IN G R I D P H ATU D I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a ir t h e n e x t w i tn e s s w i ll b e M s Tl a ts a n a

w h o w il l b e le d b y M s H o f m e y r.

W e r e q u e s t a fi v e m i n u t e b r e a k t o

p r e p a r e fo r t h e n e x t w i tn e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e w il l – le t u s m a k e i t 1 0 b e c a u s e w e w e r e

g o i n g t o ta k e a b r e a k a n y w a y. L e t u s m a k e i t 1 0 mi n u te s . S o w e w i ll
r e s u m e l e t u s s a y 1 0 t o f o u r. I t is g o i n g t o b e a b o u t 1 2 mi n u te s o r s o .
We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y Ms H o f m e y r ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I n d e e d C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u , C h a ir o u r n e x t w i tn e s s is M s

Tl a ts a n a , m a y I r e q u e s t t h a t s h e b e s w o r n i n a n d t h e n w e c a n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
c o m m e n c e w i t h h e r e v id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , p le a s e s w e a r h e r i n o r a d m in is t e r t h e

a ffir m a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
W I T N E S S : M y n a m e is B a b a d i T l a s a n a .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
REGISTRAR:
10

None.

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
REGISTRAR:

Ye s .

Pl e a s e s o l e m n l y s w e a r th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u

g iv e h e r e w i ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u t h , n o t h in g b u t th e tr u t h . I f s o
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e lp m e G o d .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

S o h e l p m e G o d . ( d u ly s w o r n , s t a t e s )

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M s Tl a ts a n a ju s t t o

o r i e n ta t e y o u w it h w h a t ’s i n fr o n t o f y o u a t th e w i tn e s s t a b le , y o u w il l
h a v e t w o fi l e s o p e n i n fr o n t o f y o u , t h o s e a r e t h e fi l e s t h a t c o m p r is e
20

y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n t h e r e a r e t w o f u r t h e r d o c u m e n t s a v a i la b le to
y o u , t h e y a r e f il e s c o n t a in in g t h e e v id e n c e o f t w o o t h e r w it n e s s e s w h ic h
I’ ll m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o a t v a r io u s p o in t s a n d a s k y o u j u s t to ta k e o u t a n d
h a v e in fr o n t o f y o u .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.
C h a ir, in t e r m s o f t h e b u n d l e s M s T l a t s a n a ’s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
e v i d e n c e is c o n t a i n e d i n w h a t w e p r o p o s e t o b e m a r k e d Ex h i b it D D 8 ( A)
a n d ( B ) , i t’s i n t w o p a r ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e l e v e r a r c h f i l e c o n ta in i n g M s Tl a ts a n a ’s

a ffi d a v i t /s t a te m e n t w il l b e m a r k e d Ex h i b it D D 8 ( A ) a n d th e o t h e r le v e r
a r c h fi le w h ic h h a s g o t a n n e x u r e s – c e r t a i n a n n e x u r e s – a r e t h e r e t w o
s t a te m e n ts f o r h e r ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e a r e in d e e d C h a ir.

T h e o t h e r l e v e r a r c h f i le c o n t a i n i n g a s t a t e m e n t b y

M s Tl a ts a n a , t h a t I d a t e d t h e 6 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 9 a n d a n n e x u r e s w i ll b e
10

marked DD8 (B).
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

B u t- o h I th i n k t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n s o m e th i n g

in c o r r e c t i n w h a t I s a i d , b e c a u s e t h e o n e m a r k e d D D 8 ( A ) d o e s n ’ t l o o k
lik e i t h a s a s t a t e m e n t a s s u c h b u t i t s e e m s to h a v e a n a n s w e r i n g
a ffi d a v i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

It d o e s .

Ye s s o th e le v e r a r c h fil e t h a t I s a id s h o u l d b e

m a r k e d D D 8 ( A) c o n t a i n s a n a n s w e r in g a ffi d a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y M s
Tl a ts a n a o n b e h a l f o f K o r e n e k a Tr a d in g a n d P r o j e c ts C C in p r o c e e d i n g s
20

in t h e H i g h C o u r t i n N o r th W e s t u n d e r c a s e n u m b e r M 1 7 8 /2 0 1 8 th a t is
t h e le v e r a r c h fi le t h a t w i ll b e m a r k e d D D 8 ( A) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d ju s t to c l a r if y M s

Tl a ts a n a , t h o s e t w o r e s o u r c e s t h a t w e h a v e i n t h e b u n d l e f o r y o u r
e v i d e n c e t o d a y, a r e fi r s t o f a l l a n a ffi d a v it t h a t y o u d e p o s e to in t h e
H i g h C o u r t p r o c e e d i n g s t h a t t h e C h a ir h a s j u s t r e f e r r e d t o , c a n y o u

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
c o n fir m t h a t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
A n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d a ff id a v i t y o u ’l l f i n d in

t h e ( B) v o lu m e , t h e o t h e r fi l e i n fr o n t o f y o u a n d ju s t t o c o n fir m t h a t ,
t h a t is a s ta t e m e n t a s t h e C h a ir h a s i n d ic a te d – w e l l a t l e a s t a n
a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u d e p o s e d t o o n th e 6 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 9 , c a n y o u c o n f ir m
that?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Ye s .
Th a n k y o u , C h a ir w e a r e w o r k i n g w it h th o s e

t w o s o u r c e s f o r M s T la t s a n a ’s e v id e n c e t o d a y b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t b e e n
f a v o u r e d w i t h a c o m p l e te d s t a te m e n t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e m a t t e r s t h a t a r e
going to form the subject matter of her evidence because of that we
d e c i d e d a t a p o in t l a s t w e e k t o s i m p ly u s e t h e s e tw o r e s o u r c e s w h ic h
w e h a d a v a il a b l e t o u s p r e v i o u s ly a n d t h e in t e n t i o n t o d a y i s to u s e t h e
a s t h e b a s is f o r th e e v i d e n c e b u t t h e n a s k h e r f u r th e r q u e s t io n s th a t w e
h a v e e n g a g e d p r e v io u s ly w i th Ms T la ts a n a o n b u t w h ic h h a d n o t b e e n
r e d u c e d t o a n a ffi d a v it o r s t a t e m e n t i n t i m e f o r h e r e v i d e n c e , s o w i t h
y o u r l e a v e t h a t’s t h e w a y w e ’ ll a p p r o a c h i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

J a , n o t h a t ’s f in e .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s T la ts a n a I ’ d l ik e to

s t a r t o ff t h e n … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e g o in g t o u s e th e m s e q u e n ti a lly ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

W e w i ll .

O k a y s o w e s t a r t w i th A ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e s t a r t w i t h A in d e e d a n d a l m o s t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
e x c lu s i v e ly A t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o r e a s o n s w h y w e ’ ll d ip i n t o B b u t w e ’ ll
p r e d o m i n a n tl y b e i n A a n d t h e n C h a ir a n d M s T la ts a n a j u s t o n e o r t w o
o th e r te c h n ic a l a s p e c t s i n a d v a n c e o f th e e v i d e n c e , th e r e w il l b e a
p o r t i o n o f th e e v i d e n c e t h is a f te r n o o n w h e r e w e w ill l is t e n to r e c o r d i n g s
a n d I’ ll a s k t h e a s s is t a n c e o f t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s t o h e l p
u s w i t h t h a t . T h e r e w i ll a l s o b e , o n t w o o c c a s i o n s o n e d o c u m e n t fr o m
t h e b u n d l e t h a t w i ll b e p r o je c te d o n t o t h e s c r e e n s , i t ’s th e i m p o r t a n t
d o c u m e n t , C h a ir, y o u ’ ll r e c a ll fr o m M r N g w e n y a ’s e v i d e n c e w h i c h is
a l le g e d t o h a v e b e e n th e h a n d w r it t e n n o t e s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y M r v a n
10

W y k i n h is m e e ti n g w it h M s T la ts a n a a t th e S p u r r e s ta u r a n t . W h a t w il l
b e i m p o r ta n t in t h e c o u r s e o f th a t p a r t o f t h e te s t i m o n y is fo r Ms
Tl a ts a n a

to

tell

us

what

she

understood

Mr

van

Wyk

to

be

c o m m u n ic a ti n g b y w h a t h e w r o t e a n d s o f o r th a t p u r p o s e w e w i ll a s k fo r
t h e a b l e a s s i s t a n c e o f a p o i n t e r o n t h e s c r e e n t o t h o s e p a r ts b u t C h a i r
w e w i ll h a n d u p to y o u a n d t o t h e w it n e s s a t t h e t i m e , a h a r d c o p y a s
w e ll o f th a t d o c u m e n t a n d t h e o n ly o th e r th in g t h a t w e w il l b e p r o j e c ti n g
is a fl o w o f f u n d s d ia g r a m t h a t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n ,
n o t b y M s Tl a ts a n a b u t s h e h a s b e e n s h o w n i t in a d v a n c e o f t h e
e v i d e n c e a n d w e w i ll a s k h e r t o t a l k t h r o u g h t h o s e a s p e c ts o f i t i n
20

r e s p e c t o f w h i c h s h e h a s p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e b u t it w a s o u r s e n s e to
a i d th e r e c e ip t o f th is e v id e n c e a n d p a r t i c u l a r ly a n o v e r a r c h i n g s e n s e
o f w h e r e m o n e y c a m e f r o m , w h e r e i t w e n t t o a n d w h e r e i t e n d e d u p , it
w o u ld b e u s e f u l t o r e p r e s e n t t h a t g r a p h ic a l ly a n d s o th a t w il l a l s o b e
h a n d e d in a t t h e a p p r o p r i a t e p o i n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Page 107 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms T la ts a n a i f w e m a y t h e n c o m m e n c e a t

E x h i b i t D D 8 ( A ) w h i c h is th e b i g fi le i n f r o n t o f y o u a n d i f y o u ’l l t u r n t o
p a g e 9 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d y o u ’ll b e w o r k in g w i t h t h e p a g i n a t i o n a t
the

top

r i g h t- h a n d

c o r n e r,

w h ic h

is

sometimes

d i ffe r e n t

to

th e

p a g in a ti o n in th e in t e r n a l p a g e . S o y o u ’l l s e e w h e r e i t s a y s B T 0 0 9 a r e
y o u o n th a t p a g e ? I f y o u l o o k u p a t t h e to p r i g h t .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .
Are you at BT009?
Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o th a t ’s th e c o n s i s te n t p a g i n a ti o n i n t h e

fi le s , s o w h e n I s a y p a g e 9 y o u ’ ll ju s t lo o k f o r B T 0 0 9 a n d f o ll o w i n g , i s
t h a t a lr ig h t .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Okay

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

S o w e s ta r t a t t h a t p a r t o f y o u r

a ffi d a v i t i n th e H i g h C o u r t p r o c e e d i n g s w i t h y o u s e t ti n g o u t t h e
b a c k g r o u n d t o y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h t h e N o r t h W e s t , y o u r i d e a a b o u t
s e r v ic in g t h e a ir p o r t s a n d r e ju v e n a ti n g t h e to u r is m i n t h e i n d u s tr y a s I
20

understand

your

a ff id a v i t,

p le a s e

could

you

te ll

us

about

that

background, where did the idea come from , what did it involve and who
d i d y o u s p e a k to a b o u t i t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d a f t e r n o o n C h a ir.

G o o d a f t e r n o o n M s T la t s a n a .

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s i t a l l s t a r t e d – t h e c o m p a n y s ta r t e d i n

Page 108 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
2 0 0 7 a s i t ’s s t a te d h e r e w it h r e g a r d t o th is c o n tr a c t th a t K o r e n e k a
e n d e d u p i n t o , i t a ll s t a r t e d i n 2 0 1 4 w h e n t h e r e w e r e c a n v a s s e s o f th e
e l e c ti o n s , A N C w a s c a n v a s s i n g t h a t th e r e ’s g o i n g to b e c h a n g e s o f
liv e s , b u s i n e s s o p p o r t u n i ti e s a n d s t u ff li k e t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s a h e a d o f t h e 2 0 1 4 g e n e r a l e le c ti o n ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

MS BABADI TLASANA:

A n d m y v il l a g e w h e r e I c o m e fr o m , I c o m e

fr o m – my p a r e n ts a r e c o m i n g fr o m L o c a l e n g Vi l la g e , L o c a le n g Vi ll a g e
10

is a v il l a g e w h e r e th e a ir p o r t is a n d th a t ’s w h e r e … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h o n e o f t h e t w o a i r p o r t s ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

M a f ik e n g A ir p o r t .

O k a y.

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s a n d a s a b u s in e s s w o m a n I f in d t h a t t o b e

a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r M a f ik e n g A ir p o r t a n d I h e a r d t h a t P i la n s b e r g i s n o t
d o i n g a n y th in g a n d M a fik e n g , w e a r e s e e i n g i t e v e r y d a y is g e t t in g
d i la p id a te d w h a t i s i t th a t w e c a n d o a n d th e n i t c a m e n o w w h e n th e
P r e m i e r w a s e l e c t e d a s th e P r e m i e r o f t h e N o r th W e s t M a h u m a p e lo a n d
t h e n w h e n h e c o m e s , i m m e d ia t e l y w h e n h e e n t e r s t h e o ff ic e h e s p o k e
20

about “saamwerk, saamtrek”.
CHAIRPERSON:

He spoke about?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : “ S a a m w e r k , s a a m tr e k ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h “ s a a m w e r k , s a a m tr e k ” .

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A n d r e p o s it i o n i n g , r e b r a n d in g , r e n e w in g a n d

t h a t m e a n s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e y o u c a n j u s t e x p l a in w h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d ,

“s a a m w e r k , s a a m tr e k , to m e a n fo r t h e b e n e fi t fo r t h o s e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s “s a a m w e r k , s a a m t r e k ” , c o m e l e t ’s w o r k

t o g e th e r le t ’s p u ll t h i s w h o l e t h in g to g e th e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a i t ’s l ik e l e t ’s p u l l t o g e th e r, le t ’s w o r k t o g e t h e r i t ’s

A fr ik a a n s f o r i t .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

Ye s I ’ m n o t t h a t g o o d w i th A fr ik a a n s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I u s e d t o b e v e r y g o o d w h e n I w a s a t s e c o n d a r y
s c h o o l b u t I’ m r e a ll y b a d n o w b u t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d “ s a a m t r e k ,
saamwerk”.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s a n d t h e n h e r e c o m e s r e p o s i ti o n i n g ,

r e n e w in g , r e b r a n d in g a n d o u r c i ty is g o in g d o w n e v e r y d a y a n d w e a r e
t h e r e a s c it iz e n s a n d w h a t … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is th e P r e m i e r t a lk in g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

Th a t ’s w h a t w a s g o i n g o n in y o u r m i n d ?

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A : T h a t ’s w h a t w a s g o i n g in m y m i n d a n d w h a t is
20

it t h a t w e c a n d o t o a s s i s t a n d a ll e v ia t e j u s t t o t a k e o u r c i ty t o a b e t t e r
le v e l a n d t h e n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e r a is e y o u r v o ic e a li t t le b i t , m a y b e b r i n g t h e

m ic a l it t le c l o s e r a s w e ll s o th a t e v e r y b o d y c a n h e a r y o u .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

H e l lo , is i t b e t t e r ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k b r in g – j u s t r a is e y o u r v o i c e it s h o u l d b e fi n e .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

O k a y, a lr i g h t , y e s a n d r e b r a n d in g a n d t h e n

y e s h e r e a r e t h e a ir p o r ts w h a t i s i t t h a t w e c a n d o a n d t h e n I c a m e w it h
t h is m i n d , I w a s i n l o v e w i t h S A A , S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s , a n d th e n I
a p p r o a c h e d S A A , S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s a n d S o u t h A fr i c a n A ir w a y s
m a d e m e n ti o n t h a t n o , n o t h e y a r e n o t d o in g t h e l o c a l fl ig h ts fo r s m a l l
a ir p o r ts

e s p e c i a l ly

fo r

small

a ir p o r ts

m a i n ly

concern

on

the

in t e r n a t io n a l a n d b ig a ir p o r t s g o in g o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d I c a l le d t h e
s w it c h b o a r d , t h a t’s w h e r e I g o t t h e in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e I w a s r e f e r r e d
– I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w e ll b u t I e n d e d u p t a lk i n g w i t h p e o p l e t h e r e a n d
10

t h e n I w a s r e fe r r e d to tr y M a n g o , tr y Fl y S A , tr y S A Ex p r e s s ( in d is ti n c t)
S o u th A fr ic a n a n d t h e n o k a y fi n e , l e t m e tr y S A E x p r e s s b e c a u s e I o n c e
s a w th e fl i g h ts o f M a n g o t h e y w e r e a l w a y s s m a l l

a n d , y o u k n o w,

p e o p l e w o u ld c o m p l a i n a b o u t t h e m , w h ic h w e r e th e fl i g h ts t h a t w e r e
lo c a l a n d t h e n h e r e is S A E x p r e s s . O k a y f i n e a n d t h e n I g o t th e n u m b e r
f o r S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e n I c a l le d S A E x p r e s s t o fi n d o u t w h a t is i t t h a t –
to bring my idea on the table and then I called SA Express and then I
w a s p u t t o G e n e r a l M a n a g e r f o r c o m m e r c i a l a n d – c o m m u n ic a t i o n a n d
c o m m e r c ia l i n S A E x p r e s s … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J u s t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d th e e a r l ie r p a r t o f

y o u r e v i d e n c e i s t h e p o s i t io n t h a t y o u g o t t h is i d e a o f b e i n g in v o lv e d in
g e t t in g

a resumption

o f fl ig h ts

to

M a fi k e n g d u r in g

the

e l e c t io n

c a m p a i g n s o f th e A N C o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u g o t t h is i d e a a ft e r
h e a r in g t h e P r e m i e r a ft e r h e b e c a m e Pr e m i e r i n 2 0 1 4 , s p e a k i n g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o , n o o k a y, n o s ir, t h e i d e a h a s a l w a y s b e e n

t h e r e b u t n o w w e d i d n ’ t k n o w w h o to t a l k t o , w h o to a p p r o a c h e s p e c i a l ly

Page 111 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
w i t h t h is k in d o f b u s i n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, n o th a t ’s fi n e , c o n ti n u e …( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

N o w w h e n t h e e n e r g e ti c P r e m i e r c o m e s i n o f

“s a a m w e r k , s a a m t r e k ” r e p o s i ti o n , th is m a d e a l o t o f s e n s e , y o u k n o w t o
a p p r o a c h a n d tr y a n d f in d o u t i f m a y b e , t h i s th i n g w h e r e c a n w e g o w i th
a n d I e n d e d u p a t S A E x p r e s s a n d th e n I w a s r e f e r r e d t o th e G e n e r a l
M a n a g e r fo r c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d – j a M r v a n W y k , c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d
… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

C o m m e r c i a l I t h i n k it is .
C o m m e r c i a l y e s a n d c o m m e r c ia l , t h a n k y o u

v e r y m u c h K a t e a n d c o m m e r c i a l … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e c a u s e y o u a r e m e n t io n in g M r v a n W y k f o r

t h e s a m e ti m e d o y o u w a n t t o s p e c i fy h is n a m e a s w e ll ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s M r ( i n d i s t i n c t) v a n W y k – B r i a n v a n W y k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr B r i a n v a n W y k .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

H i s o t h e r n a m e i s Te b o g o .

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s M r Br i a n v a n W y k .

Ye s h i s o t h e r n a m e is Te b o g o .

O k a y a lr ig h t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir w e d id r e a d t h a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d th e

o th e r d a y s o w e s h o u ld h a v e t h e s p e ll in g f o r i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y c o n t i n u e .

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Okay and I managed to get him and I saw the

id e a t h a t h e r e a r e t h e a ir p o r ts a n d w h a t w e – I w a s t h in k i n g o f –
b e c a u s e th e i n te r e s t w i t h t h e s e a ir p o r t s i s t o b r i n g fl i g h ts in s i d e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M a f ik e n g a n d P il a n s b e r g , w e u s e d t o tr a v e l b e f o r e t h e n – th e r e u s e d t o
b e a n o th e r a i r l in e , I t h i n k i t w a s – I d o n ’ t k n o w i f it w a s F ly w h a t, w h a t
a n d t h e n th e n e x t t h i n g i t j u s t d i s a p p e a r e d th a t a ir li n e a n d t h e n b y t h e n
it u s e d t o w o r k v e r y w e ll b e c a u s e w e u s e t o u s e i t , my p e o p l e – my
people used to use it to go – I used to take people halfway to the
a ir p o r t a n d n o w it k e p t q u ie t a n d w h a t is i t t h a t w e c a n d o a n d th e n M r
v a n W y k s a id , th is is a b r i ll ia n t i d e a , b r in g a p r o p o s a l f o r w a r d a n d th e n
I w e n t b a c k t o g o a n d tr y g e t th e p r o p o s a l to s e n d i t fo r w a r d to h i m . I
r e m e m b e r I a p p r o a c h e d t w o / t h r e e p e o p l e , th o s e g e n tl e m e n w e r e
10

s p e c i a lis t s i n d r a f ti n g th e p r o p o s a l s e v e n t h o u g h I d i d n ’ t w i n a b o u t i t
b u t I d r a f te d m i n e w i t h th e id e a b e c a u s e th e id e a w a s j u s t f o r t h e
a ir li n e – f o r th e fl ig h ts t o c o m e i n to e li m i n a t e th e tr a v e l li n g o f u s
b e c a u s e b e f o r e d u r i n g ( i n d is ti n c t ) w e w o u l d f ly t o S u n C i t y w e w o u l d f ly
t o J o b u r g , i t w o u ld b e e a s y, s o th a t w a s j u s t t h e i d e a o f a p p r o a c h i n g S A
Express.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Tl a ts a n a c a n I ju s t g e t c l e a r, w h a t w a s

y o u r p r o p o s a l f o r t h e w o r k t h a t K o r e n e k a w o u ld d o i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s e
fl ig h ts t h a t y o u w a n te d to b r in g i n t o t h e n o r t h W e s t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , t h e id e a fo r t h a t t o

b r i n g i n t o th e N o r t h W e s t w a s j u s t t o d o t h e m a r k e ti n g a n d th e f li g h t o f
t h e p a s s e n g e r s to b e a b le t o g e t t h e m t ic k e ts i f th e y n e e d t ic k e ts
b e c a u s e n o w I k n o w t h a t p e o p l e w o u l d b e b u y i n g tic k e t s fr o m P i c k ‘n
P a y a n d s t u ff l ik e th a t , t h a t w a s ju s t t o d o t h e a d m in is tr a ti o n o f th e
fl ig h ts , fl i g h ts t o c o m e in a n d g o o u t .

I d i d n ’ t e v e n h a v e a n – d id n ’t

k n o w a b o u t t h is th in g o f g r o u n d h a n d li n g t o m e t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
n a m e w a s n o t t h e r e , t o m e t h e n a m e w a s j u s t l e t t h e a i r li n e b e i n
o p e r a ti o n l e t u s ju s t b e g e t ti n g t h e f li g h ts i n to t h e p r o v in c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s H o f m e y r h a s ju s t m e n t io n e d K o r e n e k a , th a t w a s

y o u r C l o s e C o r p o r a t io n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t.
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s ir.

H o w l o n g h a d y o u h a d t h e C l o s e C o r p o r a t io n w h e n

you approached SA Express?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Fr o m 2 0 0 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m 2 0 0 7 ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e r e y o u t h e s o le m e m b e r o f th e C lo s e C o r p o r a ti o n

when you approached SA Express?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s .

Had you been the sole member of the corporation

s in c e i n c e p t io n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y r i g h t , th a n k y o u , y o u m a y p r o c e e d .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s T la ts a n a s o y o u – a s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e

y o u p u t to g e th e r a p r o p o s a l t h a t Mr v a n W y k h a d a s k e d y o u t o p r e p a r e
20

is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t d id t h e p r o p o s a l d e ta il ?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e p r o p o s a l w a s f o r t h e fl i g h ts to c o m e i n t h e
a ir p o r t a n d t o d o t h e a d m i n is tr a ti o n o f t h e p a s s e n g e r s a n d th e h o s te s s
– t h e p e o p l e t h a t w o u l d b e h e l p i n g – n o t n e c e s s a r ily th e h o s t e s s , I

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
d o n ’t k n o w h o w t o c a l l th e n a m e b u t t h e s e o ffic e r s … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – i s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e p r o p o s i n g

t o S A E x p r e s s w a s th a t y o u r C l o s e C o r p o r a t io n w o u l d ta k e c a r e o f
whatever needed to be done in order to process passengers when they
a r r iv e a t th e a ir p o r t b u i ld i n g u p t o w h e n t h e y b o a r d th e p l a n e .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d y o u ju s t w a n te d t h a t th e r e s h o u l d b e a e r o p la n e s

t h a t w o u l d c o m e i n t a k e p e o p l e o u t , b r i n g p e o p l e b a c k , y o u w e r e g o in g
t o – y o u r c o m p a n y, y o u r C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n w o u l d t a k e c a r e o f w h a te v e r
10

n e e d s to b e d o n e t o p r o c e s s t h e p a s s e n g e r s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J u s t t h a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s w h a t y o u h a d in m i n d .

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i t w a s c a ll e d y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w.

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I d id n ’t k n o w w h a t i t w a s c a l le d .

J a b u t y o u k n e w t h a t ’s w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o d o .

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J u s t t o d o t h e a d m i n is tr a ti o n y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s j u s t b e f o r e M s H o f m e y r p r o c e e d s fr o m t h e r e ,

before you approached SA Express, is there any work that Koreneka
20

h a d b e e n d o in g o r h a d d o n e s in c e i t ’s i n c e p t io n , is th e r e a n y b u s in e s s
in w h ic h i t h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d o r i n w h i c h i t w a s i n v o lv e d a t t h a t ti m e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , K o r e n e k a b e fo r e w e w e r e – I w a s

a s s is ti n g o n e c o m p a n y t o d e liv e r t h e ir m e a t a n d t h e v e g e ta b le s i n t h e
h o s p i ta ls in t h e p r o v i n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d d i d i t h a v e s t a ff ?

Page 115 of 224

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Yo u m e a n K o r e n e k a ?
CHAIRPERSON:

E m p l o y e e s , K o r e n e k a , a t t h e ti m e y o u a p p r o a c h e d

S A E x p r e s s d i d i t h a v e e m p lo y e e s a l r e a d y.
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A : Ye s , n o , n o I t h i n k w e w e r e j u s t t h r e e p e o p le
b e c a u s e i t w a s j u s t t h e d r iv e r a n d h e p e r s o n w h o w a s l o a d in g th e m e a t
there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o a t th e t i m e y o u a p p r o a c h e d S A E x p r e s s y o u

w e r e – y o u r C l o s e C o r p o r a t i o n w a s s t il l i n v o lv e d in t h e b u s in e s s o f
d e li v e r i n g m e a t to h o s p i t a ls .
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , n o n o t b y th e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y i t h a d fi n i s h e d d o i n g t h a t ?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s i t h a d f i n is h e d d o i n g t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s i t b u s y w i th a n y p a r t ic u l a r b u s i n e s s a t th a t

ti m e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s n o t?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

How long before you approached SA Express had it

fi n i s h e d d o in g th a t b u s i n e s s ?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

O h m y G o d , I d o n ’ t k n o w, I w il l e n d u p

s p e c u l a ti n g r e a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r, a b o u t a y e a r b e fo r e a b o u t t w o

years before, about three years before?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

I don’t know I think it could be two years,

three years.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

It could be two years, three years?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t t h e o n ly b u s in e s s i n w h ic h it h a d b e e n

in v o lv e d b e t w e e n it ’s i n c e p t io n a n d y o u r a p p r o a c h to S A E x p r e s s ?
MS

BABADI

TLASANA:

Ye s

th a t

was

ju s t

the

only

business…(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h a t w a s f o r h o w l o n g i f y o u a r e a b le to

r e m e m b e r i t b e i n g i n v o lv e d o f t h a t b u s in e s s o f d e liv e r in g m e a t t o
h o s p i ta ls .
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir i t’s n o t g o o d t o … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A y e a r,

two

years,

th r e e

years,

fo u r

years…(intervention).
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I t h in k i t’s l e s s t h a n a y e a r.

Less than a year?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a t ’s th e o n ly th i n g i t h a d d o n e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d i t h a d i n v o lv e d a b o u t t w o e m p l o y e e s p l u s

yourself?
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e i t w a s ju s t t o d e liv e r m e a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t’s fi n e , th a n k y o u , p l e a s e p r o c e e d M s

H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir i n d e e d , M s T l a t s a n a c a n I

ju s t c la r i fy i n r e l a t i o n to – t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n f o c u s e d o n K o r e n e k a
it s e l f a n d w h a t t h a t C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n w a s d o in g p r i o r t o 2 0 1 4 , b u t c a n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
I a s k , i n a d d i ti o n , y o u y o u r s e l f , h a d y o u b e e n – w h e t h e r i n y o u r
p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty o r t h r o u g h o t h e r b u s i n e s s e s in v o lv e d in g o v e r n m e n t
tendering prior to 2014.
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .
And what was that?
I t w a s c o n s tr u c t io n I w o u l d – b e f o r e I w o u l d

b e d o i n g c a t e r in g – s o m e s m a l l c a te r i n g b u t m a i n ly i t w a s c o n s tr u c t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w a s t h a t t h r o u g h K o r e n e k a , th e C lo s e

C o r p o r a ti o n ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No, no.
S o h o w d i d y o u d o t h a t b u s in e s s ?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t ’s a n o t h e r c o m p a n y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i ts n a m e ?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : K e n k S u p p li e r s a n d D i s tr i b u to r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u w e r e fa m i li a r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

W h a t w a s t h e n a m e a g a i n , I’ m s o r r y, w h a t w a s t h e

n a m e o f th e o t h e r c o m p a n y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : K e n k S u p p li e r s a n d D i s tr i b u to r s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

K- E … ( in t e r v e n ti o n )

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

K-e-n-k?

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

N-k.

Ye s .

K e n k S u p p l ie r s .

MS BABADI TLASANA: And Distributors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y it w a s i n v o lv e d in c o n s tr u c t io n ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Yo u m e n t i o n e d s o m e th in g a b o u t c a t e r i n g a s w e l l .

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I w o u ld , y o u k n o w i f … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

Oh you did whatever came.

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : W h a t e v e r c o m e o u r w a y w e w il l j u s t b e d o i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, a lr i g h t , p l e a s e p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s T la ts a n a I w o u l d j u s t t h e n l ik e to p r o b e a

li t tl e b i t f u r t h e r y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f g o v e r n m e n t t e n d e r p r o c e s s e s ,
w e r e y o u fa m i li a r w i t h t h e m b y 2 0 1 4 ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s f a m il ia r w i th t e n d e r

processes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i n y o u r e x p e r ie n c e , w h a t d i d t h e y i n v o lv e

w e r e t h e r e b i d s w e r e t h e r e p r o c e s s e s o f a d j u d ic a ti o n , h o w d id it w o r k ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir, a l l I k n o w is a t e n d e r w o u l d b e p u t

in th e n e w s p a p e r a n d w e w il l b e in v i t e d f o r b r i e f i n g a n d a f t e r b r ie f in g
w e b u y d o c u m e n ts , w e c o m p le t e t h e m , w e s u b m i t t h e m o n th e d u e d a t e
a n d t h e n fr o m t h e r e i t w il l b e t h e r e s p o n s ib il it y o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w i t h
t h e ir s e l e c ti o n w i th t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s e s a n d th e n i f y o u c o u l d b e
blessed you can be called that you have been successful – your
20

c o m p a n y h a s b e e n s u c c e s s fu l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I li k e t h e r e f e r e n c e if y o u c o u l d b e b l e s s e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir i t m a y c o m e u p a g a i n i n th e e v i d e n c e .

W e l l y o u k n o w i n to d a y ’s l a n g u a g e t h a t c o u l d m e a n

lo ts o f t h in g s , s o I g u e s s , w h a t y o u m e a n i s , i f y o u w e r e l u c k y.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s w h a t y o u m e a n .

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s Tl a ts a n a s o , a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e

u p t o t h is p o in t , y o u p u t t o g e t h e r th a t p r o p o s a l w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A n d t h e n w e e m a il e d i t t h r o u g h t o M r v a n W y k

b e c a u s e h e g a v e m e h is e m a i l a d d r e s s … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I ’ m s o r r y I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e s t il l c o n t i n u in g w i t h

t h a t – w i t h h e r e x p e r ie n c e .
10

S o y o u – p r e v i o u s ly b e f o r e y o u g o t

in v o lv e d w i t h S A E x p r e s s y o u h a d b e e n in v o lv e d i n te n d e r s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d y o u ’v e e x p l a i n e d e x a c tl y w h a t h a p p e n s a s f a r a s

y o u u n d e r s t a n d a n d t h e n a t a c e r ta i n s ta g e o n e o f h e b i d d e r s w o u l d b e
a p p o i n t e d a n d t h a t w o u ld b e a n n o u n c e d .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y a lr ig h t a n d th a t h a d h a p p e n e d w i t h y o u r o t h e r

c o m p a n y K e n k S u p p li e r s ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y a lr i g h t , th a n k y o u .

Okay Ms Hofmeyr had

a s k e d y o u w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h S A E x p r e s s t h e n , i n te r ms o f g e tt i n g t h e
business.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h e p r o p o s a l w a s s e n t th r o u g h , a s I h a v e

y o u r t e s t i m o n y, y o u s e n t i t o n a n e m a il a n d I t h i n k y o u w e r e a b o u t t o
t e ll u s a b o u t w h a t e m a il y o u w e r e to l d t o s e n d i t t o .
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s , if I ’ m n o t w r o n g , M r v a n W y k g a v e m e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h e n u m b e r f o r m e t o c o n t a c t h i m o n a n d h e g a v e m e h is e m a il a d d r e s s
b u t i t w a s a G m a i l a d d r e s s th a t h e g a v e m e a n d w h e n I a s k e d h i m , w h y
is h e g i v i n g m e th e G m a i l a d d r e s s , h e s a i d t o m e th a t i t’s m o r e
c o n v e n i e n t b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e t i m e h e ’s n e v e r i n th e o ffic e s – in t h e
o ffic e a n d a s w e l l h e ’s a lw a y s o u t o f th e c o u n tr y, s o i f I u s e t h e G m a il it
w i ll b e p r o p e r fo r m e a n d h i m b e c a u s e h e ’l l b e a b le to a c c e s s t h a t
G m a il a d d r e s s , w h a t e v e r c o m m u n ic a t i o n th a t I w o u ld b e s e n d i n g
through to him.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

m e e ti n g

w it h

J u s t t o g o b a c k a li t tl e b i t, y o u t o l d m e a b o u t y o u r
Mr

van

Wyk,

your

fir s t

m e e ti n g ,

is

th a t

right

w h e n … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

On the phone.

Oh was it on the phone?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o t a p h y s i c a l m e e ti n g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.

O h o k a y, s o w h e n y o u s p o k e t o h i m f o r t h e fir s t t i m e

it w a s n o t i n a m e e t in g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

No, no.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s o v e r t h e p h o n e .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that when he told you about sending a proposal?

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir.

O h o k a y a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o M s Tl a ts a n a a s I h a v e y o u r t e s ti m o n y y o u

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h e n s e n d i t t h r o u g h t o t h a t e m a i l a d d r e s s , i f y o u tu r n t o t h e p a g e –
o v e r t h e p a g e t o 1 0 o f y o u r H i g h C o u r t a ff id a v i t a n d y o u g o t o
p a r a g r a p h 4 . 4 , I’ d li k e y o u – y o u d e a l i n 4 . 4 a n d 4 . 5 w i t h c e r t a i n f u r t h e r
s t e p s y o u to o k in r e l a ti o n t o th e Pr e m i e r in th e N o r t h W e s t a s w e l l a s
t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e N o r t h W e s t Tr a n s p o r t I n v e s t m e n t B o a r d , c a n y o u
t e ll u s a b o u t t h o s e s t e p s y o u t o o k a s w e l l.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir – y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t 4 .4 r ig h t ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

Ye s C h a ir, a n d th e n a f t e r th a t th e r e w a s a

b u s i n e s s m e e ti n g w h ic h t h e P r e m ie r c a l le d s h o r tly a f te r h e w a s in t h e
o ffic e . T h e P r e m ie r c a l l e d th e m e e t in g fo r a ll th e b u s i n e s s p e o p le fo r
u s to g o a n d m e e t w i t h h i m a t C o o k e s L a k e to c o m e a n d g i v e h i m a ll
o u r g r ie v a n c e s b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e lo t s o f c o m p la i n t s o f b u s in e s s e s n o t
g o i n g w e ll , p e o p l e a r e n o t g e t t in g p a id a n d s tu ff l ik e th a t . A n d I w e n t I
a tt e n d e d th a t m e e ti n g .

I r e m e m b e r I c a m e la t e .

I attended that

m e e ti n g a n d t h e r e w a s a . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h i s a f t e r y o u h a d s e n t t h e p r o p o s a l to M r v a n

Wyk or before?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

Ye s , a f te r I ’v e s e n t i t t o M r v a n W y k , y e s

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

And the Premier was giving everybody an

o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p r e s s o u r s e lv e s w i th w h a t w i t h t h e e x p e r ie n c e s o f u s
m a k i n g b u s in e s s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t a n d a ft e r t h e m e e t i n g a n d n o w
e v e r y b o d y w a s g o i n g i n fr o n t ju s t to g o a n d c o n g r a t u l a te h i m , g iv e h i m

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a h a n d a n d s t u ff . A n d I w a s a m o n g th o s e p e o p l e to g o a n d g iv e h i m a
h a n d b u t n o w a n d I c a l le d h i m t o t e ll h i m t h a t m e m y b u s i n e s s t h a t I’ m
in t e r e s te d i n d o i n g is t h e f li g h t s in t h e p r o v in c e a n d th e n h e s a id i t ’s a
b r i ll ia n t id e a .

S h e p o i n te d o n e w o m a n t h e r e , t h a t w o m e n is a P o li c e

o ffic e r a c c o r d i n g t o th e w a y I k n o w h e r i n M a f ik e n g . M a f ik e n g i s a v e r y
s m a ll p l a c e .

S o n o w h e s a i d I s h o u l d g e t h is n u m b e r s fr o m t h a t l a d y

a n d I g o t h i s n u m b e r fr o m t h a t l a d y a n d t h e n h e s a i d I s h o u l d c o n t a c t
h i m s o t h a t w e c a n d is c u s s f u r t h e r th is i d e a .

A n d u n f o r tu n a te ly I ’v e

n e v e r g o t te n to h a v e a c c e s s t o th e P r e m i e r, I tr ie d t h a t c a ll I c o u l d n ’ t
10

g o th r o u g h . I e v e n w e n t t o t h e o ffic e M p i k w a A N C o ffi c e to tr y a n d s e e
if I c a n b e s q u e e z e d ju s t t o c o n t i n u e w i t h t h is id e a o f . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u a p p r o a c h e d th e la d y th a t h e s a i d y o u s h o u l d

g e t h i s n u m b e r fr o m .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t l a d y g a v e y o u h is n u m b e r.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it the landline a cell phone?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , i t w a s a c e ll p h o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and you ... (intervenes)
20

MS BABADI TLASANA: 079 so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a l l e d t h a t c e l l p h o n e n u m b e r
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u d i d n ’ t g e t h o ld o f th e P r e m i e r ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , th e r e w a s n e v e r a n y a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u a p p r o a c h e d t h e A N C o ffi c e ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , to s e e i f m a y b e I c a n m a k e a n

a p p o i n t m e n t t o s e e h i m t o n o a v a il .

A n d th e r e a t A N C M p ik w a o ff ic e

r e g i o n a l o ff ic e I m e t w it h P a s t o r - th a t g e n tl e m a n ’s n a m e t h e y a l w a y s
c a l l h i m M o r u t i M o r u ti M o r u ti . S o a p p a r e n t ly th a t M o r u ti w a s h is PA a n d
t h a t h e h a s t o a s k m e w h y d o I w a n t t o s e e t h e Pr e m i e r a n d I t o l d h i m
t h a t n o I w a n t t o s e e t h e P r e m i e r w i th r e g a r d t o t h i s b e c a u s e I t o l d h i m
a b o u t t h is i d e a o f t h e a ir p o r t a n d t h e y d i s c o u r a g e d m e to te ll m e t h a t
n o u n f o r tu n a te ly t h a t i d e a i t h a s i t h a s a l w a y s - i t ’s a lr e a d y i n th e
p i p e l in e . T h e r e ’s s o m e o n e fr o m K w a z u l u N a t a l , I d o n ’ t k n o w h e s p o k e
10

s o m e Zu l u n a m e t h a t is g o in g t o b e a p p o in t e d fo r t h e a ir p o r ts . A n d I
f e e l s o t h a t I s a i d le t m e le a v e t h i s m a n , l e t m e g o t o t h e a d mi n is tr a tiv e
o ffic e t o t h e P r e m ie r o ff ic e i n g o v e r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e g o v e r n m e n t o ffi c e .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

Because the idea was just to tell the

H e a d o f th e H o u s e w h a t a r e w e in t e n d in g t o d o b e c a u s e h e in v i t e d u s .
A n d t h e n e v e n w h e n I a r r iv e d th e r e h i s PA s h e w a s a l w a y s s a y i n g t h a t
n o , t h e Pr e m i e r is n o t a v a il a b l e , n o t a v a i la b le .

I ’v e n e v e r h a d a n y

c o n ta c t a n y fu r t h e r c o m m u n ic a t i o n w i t h th e Pr e m i e r s in c e t h e n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a , y o u d id a t 4 . 5 o n th a t p a g e 1 0 y o u
20

t a lk a b o u t a n a p p r o a c h y o u m a d e to t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e N o r t h w e s t
Tr a n s p o r t In v e s t m e n t B o a r d . C a n y o u f ir s t o f a ll t e l l u s w h o t h a t p e r s o n
is ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Ja. Then it was Mr Themba Gwabeni who was
a p p o i n t e d a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e N o r t h w e s t Tr a n s p o r t In v e s t m e n t
Board.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t t o g e t t h a t n a m e a g a i n , Mr T h e m b a

Gwabeni.
MS BABADI TLASANA: Themba Gwabeni, yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G - W - A- B - E- N - I
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d w h a t d i d y o u d is c u s s w it h h i m ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A : A n d th e n I s o l d t h e i d e a t o h i m a s w e l l. T h a t
M r G w a b e n i , t h is i s th e i d e a t h is i s w h a t I w a n t t o d o . I r e m e m b e r I m e t
h i m n e a r e r t h e P a r li a m e n t a r e a b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y i n g th a t t h e y ’r e
10

a b o u t t o e n t e r fo r a s e s s i o n b u t h e w a s ju s t t h e r e a t t h e c a r w a s h .
C o m e a n d m e e t m e b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e c a n ' t , I s a i d p le a s e
p l e a s e le t l e m e j u s t m e e t w i t h y o u . A n d t h e n I w e n t t o h i m a n d I s e ll
t h e v e r y s a m e i d e a t o h i m a n d t h e n h e s a i d b r il li a n t , t h is is a v e r y
w o n d e r fu l i d e a .

I’ m g o i n g i n t o th e l e g is l a ti o n n o w n o w s o o n a n d I ’ m

g o i n g to m e e t w it h th e M E C M o l a p i s i . I’ m g o i n g to s e l l t h is i d e a t o h i m
s o t h a t h e c a n p r e s e n t i t i n p a r l ia m e n t . A n d th e n I s a i d , o k a y f i n e n o ,
t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h b e c a u s e n o w a t l e a s t t h e r e ’s d ir e c t io n . A n d th e n I
s a i d o k a y f in e b e c a u s e I ’v e b e e n c o m m u n ic a ti n g , I’v e b e e n a s k i n g M r
v a n W y k h o w fa r is m y p r o p o s a l , h e ’s j u s t m u t e h e ’s n o t s a y i n g
20

a n y th in g .

A n d I w a s to g u a r d b e c a u s e e v e r y ti m e w h e n y o u b r in g a

p r o p o s a l s o m e o t h e r p e o p l e w o u l d b e s il ly s te a l i n g y o u r id e a . A n d n o w
I s a id t o M r G w a b e n i , M r G w a b e n i y o u k n o w w h a t , s i n c e y o u s a y y o u
a r e g o in g t o s e l l i t t o M E C M o l a p i s i , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I’ m g o in g t o
in f o r m Mr v a n W y k o f w h a t y o u s a id . N o w y o u p e o p l e o f y o u r h i g h l e v e l
o f u n d e r s t a n d in g t h is t h i s t h i n g s , I’ m g o i n g to g iv e M r v a n W y k y o u r

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n u m b e r s o t h a t a t l e a s t y o u r p e o p le s h o u l d c o m m u n i c a t e a n d a s s is t m e
on this to be successful.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a , i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e to p a g e 11
y o u t h e n a t th e to p o f th a t p a g e p a r a g r a p h 4 . 6 . Te l l u s a b o u t w h e n Mr
v a n W y k d id c o m e b a c k to y o u ? W h a t d id h e s a y w h e n h e c a m e b a c k to
you?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s . M r v a n W y k l a t e r C h a ir, h e c a ll e d t o s a y
t h a t I’ m b e in g p r o v in c i a l ly g r a n t e d - w h a t i s th e w o r d t h a t h e u s e d ?
P r o v i n c ia ll y s e l e c te d , y e s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e l e c t e d .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h a n k y o u . K o r e n e k a h a s b e e n n o t my s e l f , my
a p o lo g i e s .

C h a i r p l e a s e b e a r w it h m e , I ’ m j u s t a b u s i n e s s w o m e n a t

the background.

I don’t know the legal language.

P l e a s e a t ti m e s

w h e n I s a y . . . ( in t e r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON:

D o n ’ t w o r r y, j u s t t e ll a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d a n d w h a t ’s

m o r e i m p o r t a n t is j u s t w h a t y o u h a d i n m i n d a n d w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d .
T h e r e s t w e w il l tr y a n d f i t i n .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. A n d th e n h e
s a i d t o m e t h a t I ’ m p r o v i n c ia ll y s e l e c t e d t o a s a p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r a n d
20

t h e r e a s o n s b e in g I ’ m fr o m t h e N o r t h w e s t Pr o v in c e , I ’ m a w o m e n , I’ m h e m e n t io n e d f o u r r e a s o n s w h y a m I b e in g s e l e c t e d a s a p r e f e r r e d
b i d d e r. B e c a u s e ja a n d th e n I s a i d , o h t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I w a s j u s t
s o e x c it e d a n d f e e l i n g g r e a t t h a t w e ll m y p r a y e r s h a v e b e e n a n s w e r e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms T l a ts a n a , c a n I a s k , t h is m e n ti o n o f a

p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r, d id t h a t r a i s e a q u e r y w i t h y o u ?

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Because as I

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h u s fa r y o u h a d n ’ t p a r ti c i p a t e d i n a n y
tender process had you?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

B e f o r e t h e n C h a ir, b e c a u s e w it h t h is in

b e t w e e n t h i s p r o c e s s M r v a n W y k w ill n o t b e c o m in g t o m e a n d n o w I ’l l
b e a g i t a t e d . N o w w h a t i s g o in g o n w i t h m y p r o p o s a l ? H a v e n o w t h e y
d e c i d e d n o w to g i v e i t to s o m e b o d y - n o I r e m e m b e r I a s k h i m , Mr v a n
W y k w h y a r e y o u , i t’s li k e y o u a r e q u ie t o r m a y b e a r e y o u t a k i n g t h i s
t h i n g f o r te n d e r o r w h a t ? A n d t h e n h e s a i d , n o n o w e a r e p a r a s t a t a l .
CHAIRPERSON: We are?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : P a r a s ta t a l.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh ja.
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

I t ’s t h e e x p r e s s .

W e a r e p a r a s t a ta l a n d w e

a r e d o in g t h i n g s d i ff e r e n t ly. I t ’s n o t l ik e t h e w a y t h e y a r e g o i n g t o b e .
T h a t w a s b e f o r e b e in g t o l d a s a p r e fe r r e d b i d d e r. I’ m t r y i n g to a n s w e r
y o u b e c a u s e y o u tr y i n g t o g e t i f th e r e w a s a t e n d e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m g e t t in g . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t m e ju s t i n t e r m s o f ti m e f r a m e s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r o r d o y o u a r o u n d w h e n in t e r m s
20

o f m o n t h s it w a s w h e n y o u a p p r o a c h e d M r v a n W y k f o r t h e fir s t t i m e ? I t
w a s 2 0 1 4 , is n ’ t i t ? O r w a s it 2 0 1 5 ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s . N o n o .
CHAIRPERSON: 2014?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: 2013?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , i t ’s 2 0 1 4 C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 1 4 , ja .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J a , i t’s 2 0 1 4 b e c a u s e I t h i n k . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : w e ll , th e e l e c ti o n s w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n th e fir s t
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : M a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a lf o f t h e y e a r.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Can you remember more or less when it was when

y o u m a d e t h e fi r s t a p p r o a c h t o M r v a n W y k ? I f y o u c a n ’t r e m e m b e r i t ’s
10

fi n e , I j u s t w a n t e d t o h a v e s o m e ti m e fr a m e i n m in e .

Yo u c a n ’ t

remember?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : E is h C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o n ’ t w o r r y, i t ’s o k a y. B u t fr o m . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s )
MS BABADI TLASANA: Ja but it was early 20 to 2014.(?)
C H A I R P E R S O N : E a r l y n o t l a te in t h e y e a r ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t l a t e , ja ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o s ir b e c a u s e a f t e r h i m is th e n n o w w h e n th e
P r e m i e r w a s b e e n a p p o in t e d a n d th e n t h e P r e m ie r e n te r w i th S a a m
20

W e r k S a a m Tr e k a n d t h e n t h e P r e m ie r c a ll e d t h e b u s in e s s m e e t in g s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u m e t h i m i t w a s b e f o r e t h e P r e m ie r g o t

elected?
MS BABADI TLASANA: On the phone.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh when you spoke to him on the phone it was before
t h e P r e m i e r w a s e l e c t e d ? It w a s b e f o r e y o u h a d t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e t h e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
P r e m i e r a d d r e s s e d b u s i n e s s p e o p l e ? I t w a s b e f o r e th a t .
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A : Ye s , i t w a s b e f o r e t h e P r e m i e r w a s a p p o i n te d
in t h e o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y b e c a u s e w h e n h e a d d r e s s e d t h e b u s in e s s

p e o p l e th a t i s t h e P r e m ie r, h e o b v i o u s ly h a d b e e n e l e c t e d b y t h e m .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , th e Pr e m i e r j u s t a d d r e s s e d u s I th i n k i t

w a s a f t e r t w o w e e k a f t e r h e w a s i n t h e o ffi c e o r a m o n g s t s o m e w h e r e
there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J u s t b e a c c e p t e d . ( i n a u d ib l e c r o s s t a l k )
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n Mr v a n W y k t o l d y o u t h a t y o u r p r o p o s a l ,

y o u r c o m p a n y w a s p r o v i n c i a lly s e l e c te d . T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b o u t
h o w l o n g a f te r th e m e e t in g a t w h ic h t h e P r e m i e r a d d r e s s e d b u s i n e s s
p e o p l e ? O r h o w l o n g a f t e r y o u h a d s e n t i n y o u r p r o p o s a l ? J u s t t o g iv e
u s s o m e ti m e fr a m e .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, e v e n t h o u g h i t w o n ’ t b e e x a c t b u t I
t h i n k i t w i ll f a ll w it h th e fl o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no it doesn’t have to be exact.
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

Ye s .

A n d th e n a f t e r t h e P r e m ie r w h e n I

a tt e m p t e d t o c o m m u n ic a te w i t h th e Pr e m ie r, I d id n ’t h e a r a n y t h i n g I
d i d n ’ t g e t h i m . A n d t h e n M r G w a b e n i w e n t a n d s p e a k to M E C M o la p is i
a n d th e n t h e y k e p t q u i e t, I d o n ’ t k n o w I th in k b e c a u s e e l e c t io n s I t h in k
t h e y w e r e M a y, J u n e , J u ly , A u g u s t , s o m e w h e r e t h e r e s o m e w h e r e M a y,
J u n e , J u ly, A u g u s t , S e p t e m b e r, s o m e w h e r e th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , th a t ’s fi n e . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : My a p o l o g ie s I c a n ’ t b e p r e c i s e w it h th e d a t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s T la t s a n a , ju s t s o I h a v e y o u r t e s ti m o n y
c o r r e c t . A t s o m e p o i n t in t h a t p e r i o d y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h Mr
v a n W y k i n w h i c h y o u r a is e d t h e q u e s ti o n o f te n d e r i n g w h e t h e r t h e r e
was a process.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e h e g a v e y o u
a n a n s w e r t h a t s a i d : W e ll , S A E x p r e s s w a s a p a r a s t a t a l.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d t h a t m e a n t o y o u ? W h y w o u l d n ’ t
a p a r a s t a ta l b e i n v o l v e d i n t e n d e r i n g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir t h a t w a s m y fir s t ti m e to b e d e a l in g w i th
s o m e t h i n g th a t t h e y c a l le d p a r a s ta t a l .

I k n o w t h a t th e y ’r e p a r a s t a t a l

b u t t h a t w a s m y f ir s t a p p r o a c h . I k n o w h o w g o v e r n m e n t o p e r a t e s w i t h
d o i n g i ts te n d e r s a n d s t u ff b u t n o w t h is o n e w a s n e w a n d w h e n h e s a i d
it ’s p a r a s t a ta l a n d w e d o t h in g d i ffe r e n tly, I b e l i e v e d h i m .
b e li e v e h i m ?

Why do I

W i th t h e n a tu r e o f t h e o ffic e h e ’s h o l d i n g , t h e r e is

n o w h e r e t h a t h e c a n b e in S A E x p r e s s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r.

By the way

G e n e r a l M a n a g e r, y o u a r e n e x t t o B o a r d a n d t h e n y o u s t a r t li k e I
20

b e li e v e d h i m , e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d y o u ’r e n e x t t o ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N e x t t o t h i s s e a t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
CHAIRPERSON: The Board.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d t h e B o a r d , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.

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M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , t h a t ’s m y p r e s u m p t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h o u g h t I h e a r d y o u s a y s o m e t h i n g e ls e .

Okay

a lr i g h t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s T la t s a n a , s o a t p a g e 11 i f y o u c a n ju s t

r e tu r n t o p a g e 11 .
MS BABADI TLASANA: Mm-hmm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t 4 .7 y o u d e ta il i n th a t p a r a g r a p h w h a t e ls e
M r v a n W y k to l d y o u o n t h a t c a ll w h e n h e h a d s a i d y o u w e r e
10

p r o v i n c i a ll y s e l e c t e d .

W h a t e ls e d i d h e te ll y o u th e n n e e d e d to

happen?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , a n d M r v a n W y k m e n t i o n e d t h a t t h e r e a r e
t h i n g s t h a t h a v e t o b e a d d r e s s e d . I h a v e t o a p p o in t s o m e o t h e r p e o p le
in t o t h e c o m p a n y.

A n d I tr ie d t o i n d ic a t e t o h i m th a t y o u k n o w m y

c o m p a n i e s I’ m a l w a y s a l o n e o n t h e m , n o t th a t I ’ m s e l fis h o r w h a t t o
a v o i d t h e m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g a m o n g p e o p l e .

A n d b y t h e n d u r in g t h e

e l e c ti o n s I r e m e m b e r w e l l t h a t th e r e w a s th is s a y i n g t h a t y o u k n o w
p e o p l e s h o u ld s h a r e . Yo u c a n n o t j u s t b e g iv e n a w h o le c o w i n s t e a d o f
s h a r i n g a n d g iv in g o t h e r s t h e fe e t a n d th e t h i g h a n d t h e l e g a n d s t u ff
20

lik e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Did they say you mustn’t eat alone?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ’ t w a n t t o h a v e t h e w h o l e c o w t o y o u r s e l f .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , i t ’s s e l f is h n e s s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms T la t s a n a , is t h a t w h a t Mr v a n W y k c o n v e y e d
t o y o u fo r w h y y o u n e e d e d m o r e p e o p l e i n y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir, h e n e v e r s p o k e a b o u t th e c o w, I ’ m j u s t
m a k i n g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , i t w a s ( in a u d i b l e l a u g h t e r )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n o , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b u t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e s a y i n g d u r in g t h e

e l e c ti o n c a m p a i g n .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s ta lk th a t p e o p l e m u s t w o r k t o g e t h e r.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ’ t j u s t h a v e a w h o l e c o w t o y o u r s e l f .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s s a i d i n th e c o n t e x t o f e l e c t io n s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , i n t e r m s o f p r o m o ti n g b u s i n e s s e s a n d d o i n g

business with government.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir, h e n c e i t w a s e a s y i t w a s m o r e

c o n v e n i e n t y e s b u t i t m a k e s e n s e y o u k n o w b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y i n g th a t
t h is p r o j e c t w a s g o i n g t o b e b i g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o w h e n h e s a id to y o u y o u n e e d e d o t h e r p e o p le ,
y o u u n d e r s to o d th a t i n th e c o n te x t o f w h a t y o u h e a r d d u r in g th e
e l e c ti o n c a m p a i g n ? Is th a t w h a t y o u s a y i n g ?

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M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o , y o u ’r e n o t s a y i n g t h a t . O k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir, I’ m n o t s a y in g t h a t . W h a t I ’ m s a y i n g
C h a ir is h e s a i d t h e r e a r e th i n g s t h a t I h a v e t o m e e t t o b e f o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m , r e q u ir e m e n ts .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : R e q u ir e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t I h a v e t o m e e t . Fir s t

r e q u ir e m e n t is t o h a v e p e o p l e i n m y c o m p a n y s o a s t o s h a r e t h is c o w.
10

L e t m e m a k e h i m l ik e h e ’s a ll o f u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o , I u n d e r s t a n d it ’s j u s t t h a t w h e n I t h o u g h t

y o u u n d e r s t o o d w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g w h e n h e s a id y o u ’ ll n e e d o th e r
p e o p l e . I s a id , d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d i n g i t i n t h is in t h e c o n te x t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O f w h a t y o u h a d b e e n t o ld d u r i n g th e e l e c t io n

c a m p a i g n , d o n ’ t w a n t t h e c o w f o r y o u r s e l f o n ly s h a r e w i th o th e r p e o p l e .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u s a i d n o , s o I t h o u g h t - s o b u t I t h i n k w e

u n d e r s t a n d e a c h o t h e r. S o th e r e w a s t h o u g h t o f a c o w e v e n w h e n M r
20

v a n W y k to ld y o u a b o u t g e t t in g o t h e r p e o p l e b u t n o t th a t t h e i d e a o f a
cow came from him?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

No.

CHAIRPERSON: But you thought about that idea?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : M m , o k a y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A n d t h e o t h e r t h i n g h e s a id b e c a u s e I h a d a

b o o k k e e p e r b y t h e n f o r m y c o m p a n i e s . A n d t h e n h e s a i d , n o n o w h o is
t h e p e r s o n . I s a id , n o n o s h e ’s j u s t a b o o k k e e p e r. H e s a y s , n o n o y o u
n e e d s o m e b o d y w h o - y o u n e e d to h a v e s o m e o n e w h o ’s m o r e q u a li f ie d
a n d w h o ’s fa m i li a r w i t h t h e S A R S r e la t e d i s s u e s s o th a t h e c a n b e a b l e
to be of assistance to you.

B e c a u s e t h i s p e r s o n b e a b le t o h e l p y o u

w i t h t h e s a l a r i e s , w i th t h e t a x e s , w i t h t h e p a y a s y o u e a r n o f t h e s ta ff
a n d s t u ff l ik e th a t .

And then I told him that, no no I don’t have that

p e r s o n b u t I t h in k m y b o o k k e e p e r w o u l d b e o f a s s i s t a n c e . H e s a y s , n o
10

n o w e ’ v e g o t s o m e o n e w h o ’s v e r y u n iq u e w h o m w e a l w a y s u s e a t S A
E x p r e s s . A n d n o w b e c a u s e a ll t h e s e in f o r ma t io n w a s c o m in g t h r o u g h
h i m , I w a s ju s t s a y i n g o h t h a n k y o u s o m u c h , a t le a s t t h e y a r e d e f i n i t e ly
going to help me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w e r e h a p p y t h a t y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g to h a v e t o
lo o k f o r s u c h a p e r s o n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , a t l e a s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Wa s t h i s i n a m e e ti n g w h e n h e w a s s a y i n g t h i s
t o y o u o r s ti ll o n t h e p h o n e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

20

N o n o , i t w a s a m e e ti n g b e c a u s e h e c a m e

h e r e - e v e r y t i m e h e w i ll b e c o m i n g t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In N o r th w e s t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : In N o r t h w e s t a n d w e w i ll b e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e I
r e m e m b e r t h a t d a y h e w a s h a v in g s o m e d o c u m e n ts w i t h h i m t h a t w a s
s a y in g .

I ’ m fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f th e H O D a n d t h is t h in g h a s to b e

a tt e n d e d v e r y u r g e n t b e c a u s e n o w y o u n e e d t o b e a p p o in t e d , y o u n e e d

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t o s t a r t in M a y a n d n o w y o u g e t t h o s e p e o p l e o n b o a r d . I t w a s I t h i n k i t
w a s M a r c h s o m e w h e r e th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , I ’ll l e a v e t o y o u M s H o f m e y r in te r m s o f m a k in g
s u r e w e k n o w w h e n w a s t h e fir s t m e e ti n g a n d s o o n a n d s o o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e w e a r e ? I n d e e d .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
correct?

W e ’v e m o v e d i n ti m e t o 2 0 1 6 n o w, i s th a t

B e c a u s e t h i s m e e t i n g t h a t y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g t o is t o y o u r

r e c o l l e c ti o n d id I h a v e y o u t e s t i m o n y to b e M a r c h 2 0 1 6 ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA: No no.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n is t h e m e e t i n g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: 15, 2015.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 5 ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u ’r e s ti ll i n 2 0 1 5 w h e n h e t a l k s t o y o u a b o u t
t h e n e e d to a p p o i n t a n a c c o u n t a n t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n e e d f o r t w o m o r e m e m b e r s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

20

No no, it was not in March.

W a s i t n o t in

N o v e m b e r D e c e m b e r, i t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e y e a r 2 0 1 4 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n ju s t g e t t h e ti m e r ig h t b e c a u s e y o u r
t e s ti m o n y h a s ju s t b e e n a b o u t a m e e t i n g a b o u t w h e n h e c o m e fr o m th e
H O D s o ffic e i n t h e N o r t h w e s t s a y i n g t h a t it w a s q u i t e u r g e n t t o

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
conclude your appointment.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t o n ly h a p p e n s l a t e r i n M a r c h 2 0 1 6 , r i g h t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o n o C h a ir, n o . 2 0 1 6 - n o t 2 0 1 6 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s , 2 0 1 5 .
MS BABADI TLASANA: Not 2015.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y m a y b e le t ’s d o it t h is w a y, l e t ’s t r y t h i s .

Yo u

h a d a t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h Mr v a n W y k .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to which you sent to him your proposal.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a t t h a t ti m e w h e n y o u s e n t y o u r p r o p o s a l t o h i m ,
you had not met him yet had you?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
ti m e ?

O k a y a lr ig h t .

W h e n d i d y o u m e e t h i m f o r t h e f ir s t

N o w I’ m n o t t a lk in g a b o u t th e a c t u a l d a te , b u t m a y b e a m o n th

a n d a y e a r.

M a y b e if y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e m o n t h y o u c a n j u s t

in d i c a t e m e e t s o m e w h e r e i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e y e a r, t h e b e g in n in g o r
la t e . L e t ’s s ta r t w i t h th e y e a r. Wa s i t i n 2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 5 ?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA: It was 2014.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s i n 2 0 1 4 .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u m e t h i m f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e r e w a s t h is w h e r e y o u m e t h i m f o r t h e f ir s t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
ti m e ? C a n y o u r e m e m b e r ? Wa s i t i n h is o ffi c e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : W h a t is t h e q u e s t io n C h a ir, b e c a u s e I ’ m tr y i n g
t o g e t t h e d a te .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n d id y o u m e e t M r v a n W y k fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

O k a y n o f o r t h e fir s t t i m e i t w a s in I th i n k i t

was in 2014.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s t h e y e a r in 2 0 1 4 ?

I t w a s th e e n d o f 2 0 1 4

maybe or you can’t remember? We don’t have to remember the exact
date or month but it was in 2014?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , i t w a s i n 2 0 1 4 b e c a u s e w it h b r i n g i n g

p e o p l e i n t o t h e c o m p a n y i t w a s th r o u g h a t e l e p h o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s a n d th e n a ft e r t h e t e l e p h o n e n o w a n d th e n
I h a d t o p r o c e s s t h e s e p e o p l e to b e i n s id e t h e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . O k a y.

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d a g a i n h e s a i d t h a t th is p e o p l e n e e d t o b e
b r o u g h t i n - I ’ m tr y i n g t o r e c a ll t h e s e q u e n c e o f th is .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y m a y b e le t ’s l e a v e it f o r n o w.

Ms Hofmeyr

m i g h t b e a b l e to h e l p y o u t o r e m e m b e r.
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h a n k y o u , o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r I ju s t w a n t u s t o h a v e a n i d e a .

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

In terms of the important things.

W h e n d i d th e y

h a p p e n a n d w h a t w a s s a i d ? A n d s o m e o f th e i n te r a c t i o n s t h e r e m i g h t
n o t b e a n y t h i n g i m p o r t a n t b u t i n o t h e r s i t mi g h t b e i m p o r t a n t to k n o w

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h is w a s s a i d o n t h i s o c c a s i o n a n d w h e t h e r i t w a s a t e l e p h o n e
c o m m u n ic a ti o n o r a m e e t i n g . T h a n k y o u , M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.

M s Tl a ts a n a , m a y I m a k e

t h is s u g g e s t io n , y o u r a ffi d a v i t d o e s n o t i n t h e H i g h C o u r t g i v e s t h e s e
d a t e s t o e v e n ts o f th e ty p e t h a t t h e C h a ir h a s r e q u e s te d . B u t i t d o e s
seem to progress in sequence and then every now and then we get a
date.

S o f o r e x a m p le i f y o u j u s t t u r n o v e r th e p a g e f r o m p a g e 11 to

p a g e 1 2 , y o u ’l l s e e t h e n e x t d a t e w e g e t i n t h e a ff i d a v i t is a t p a r a g r a p h
4 .1 2 w h ic h s a y s d u r i n g A p r il 2 0 1 5 .
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n w e t a k e i t t h e n a n d p le a s e b e a s c l e a r
a s y o u c a n o n t h is a n d i f y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r y o u m u s t s a y. B u t c a n w e
t a k e i t t h a t w h a t y o u ’v e d e s c r ib e d i n t h e a ffi d a v i t t h e n w e a t l e a s t k n o w
is h a p p e n in g b e f o r e A p r il 2 0 1 5 , if y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t i t b e fo r e t h a t
p a r a g r a p h ? I s t h a t a f a ir w a y to r e a d y o u r a ffi d a v i t ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A : Ye s . C h a ir, l e t m e g o b a c k a li t tl e b it . I h a d
to- was it 2014? Before 2015, yes. 2014 when I had to bring this three
p e o p l e i n to t h e c o m p a n y. T h r e e m e a n i n g th e a c c o u n t a n t a n d t h is o n e
in t o my C K .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y th a t w a s 2 0 1 4 ?

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J a , i t w a s 2 0 1 4 to w a r d s t h e e n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

B e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r w e h a d to g o t o o p e n a

b a n k a c c o u n t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Tl a ts a n e , c o u ld w e b r e a k t h a t d o w n a b i t

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b e c a u s e t h e d e t a i ls o f t h e p e o p l e is q u i te i m p o r t a n t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e to w a r d s t h e e n d
of 2014.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e a t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n w i th Mr v a n
W y k , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Okay yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A t w h ic h h e te ll s y o u y o u n e e d to b r in g m o r e

p e o p l e i n t o y o u r c c , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t d o y o u s a y in r e s p o n s e t o t h a t w h e n h e

says you need more people in your cc? What do you say?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e r e a s o n w e r e t h i s p r o je c t is

g o i n g t o b e v e r y h u g e a n d I h a v e t o b r i n g t h is p e o p l e in t o th e c o m p a n y
s o t h a t t h e r e c a n b e n u m b e r o n e , h e w a s s a y in g s o t h a t t h e y c a n b e o f
a s s is t a n c e t o t h e c o m p a n y. A n d n o w m y c o n c e r n w a s n o w if n o w t h e y
a r e g o in g t o b e o f a s s is t a n c e i t m e a n s t h a t n o w w e a r e g o i n g t o b e 3 0
30
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e g o i n g t o s h a r e t h e p r o fi ts ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , j a t h is w h o l e th in g e v e n th o u g h y e s

b e c a u s e I n e e d e d m o r e f o r h i m t o b e m o r e e x p l ic i t w i t h i t . A n d t h e n h e
s a i d , n o n o d o n ’t y o u w o r r y a b o u t i t ’s n o t a l l a b o u t s h a r i n g , i t’s a ll
a b o u t th e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f p e o p l e i n th e c c b e c a u s e i t ’s n o t fa ir f o r y o u
t o b e a p p o i n t e d a l o n e fo r t h i s b ig p r o j e c t y o u n e e d to h a v e s o m e p e o p l e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
in t h e c o m p a n y.

Because these people they are working and they

c a n n o t b e p a r t o f s h a r i n g o r s o m e th i n g , t h e y w il l ju s t g e t s o m e s m a ll
d iv i d e n d s o u t o f t h i s w h o l e th in g o n ( i n a u d i b l e ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , t h e q u e s ti o n fr o m M s H o f m e y r w a s , w h a t d i d y o u

s a y t o Mr v a n W y k i n r e s p o n s e w i t h th in g s lik e th is ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , in b r in g in g t h e m I a g r e e d . Ye s , I a g r e e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I u n d e r s t o o d f r o m y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u

m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h i n g a b o u t y o u r s i s t e r. D o y o u r e c a l l th a t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

Ye s .

I e n d e d u p a g r e e i n g b e c a u s e i n i t ia ll y

b e f o r e w e h e w a s s a y i n g I s h o u l d b r in g p e o p le , I s a i d y e s I ’v e g o t m y
s is t e r t h a t I w o u l d n e e d h e r t o b e p a r t o f th is my c o m p a n y. A n d
t h e n h e s a i d , n o n o y o u c a n ’ t b r i n g h e r in b e c a u s e i t ’s g o i n g t o b e
n e p o tis m . S o i t’s b e s t i f y o u b r i n g n e w fr e s h p e o p l e fr o m o u ts id e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w e r e t h e p e o p l e th a t h e p r o p o s e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d t h e n h e p r o p o s e d M s P h ir i a n d M r Vi c to r
T h a b e n g . M s C a th e r in e P h ir i a n d M r T h a b e n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w e r e t h e y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A t a l a t e r s ta g e I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h is p e o p l e , t h e
o n ly p e r s o n th a t I k n e w w a s M r T h a b e n g b e c a u s e o f m e d ia .

20

He was

w o r k i n g f o r S A B C . I t w a s j u s t I k n e w h i m a n d k n e w h i m t h a t h e ’s j u s t a
s o m e o n e fr o m M a fik e n g b u t M s P h ir i I n e v e r k n e w M s P h ir i f r o m b e f o r e .
A n d th e n h e g a v e m e t h e c o n t a c t n u m b e r s t o g o a n d c o ll e c t t h e ir c o p i e s
o f Id s s o t h a t I c a n s u b m i t t h e m t o w h o e v e r w o u l d b e d o i n g t h e b r in g i n g
t h e m i n to t h e c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u w a n t t o g iv e t h e n a m e s o f t h e tw o p e r s o n s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , i t’s Ms P h ir i a n d M r Th a b e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h e n a m e th e fir s t n a m e o r d i d h e m e n t i o n t h e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

O k a y, M s P h ir i h e r f ir s t n a m e i s C a th e r in e

P h ir i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d t h e n M r Th a b e n g . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m s o r r y, M s T la t s a n a s h e h a s a m id d le n a m e
does she not?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j a , o r m i d d le n a m e .
MS BABADI TLASANA: Catherine?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a t h e r i n g J o y c e P h ir i .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O k a y, C a t h e r i n e J o y c e P h i r i .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u m u s t j u s t h a v e t h e f u l l n a m e b e c a u s e t h e r e
d i ff e r e n t r e f e r e n c e s t h a t p e o p l e g iv e t o t h e n a m e s o v e r t i m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , f u l l n a m e s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : o k a y. J a , C a t h e r i n e J o y c e P h ir i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e o t h e r p e r s o n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

20

T h e o t h e r p e r s o n i s Vi c t o r T h a b e n g , I f o r g o t

t h e o th e r n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . C h a ir, j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d th a t
r e fe r e n c e to w h a t M s T l a t s a n a s a i d i n r e s p o n s e a b o u t h e r w il li n g n e s s t o
b r i n g in h e r s is t e r, y o u ’ ll a c tu a lly fi n d in t h e s e c o n d a ffi d a v i t . S o j u s t
f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s i t ’s a t e x h i b i t D D 8 B a t p a g e 4 3 8 . S o y o u t h e n M s

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Tl a ts a n a , a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u a g r e e d t o a d d t h e t w o p e o p le a s y o u r a ffi d a v i t u s e d t h e w o r d s h a r e h o l d e r b u t i n b r a c k e t s . T h e y w e r e to
b e c o m e m e m b e r s o f t h e c c , is t h a t r ig h t w i t h y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C o m e a g a in w i t h t h e q u e s t i o n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e ’s a s k i n g w h e th e r t h e t w o p e r s o n s th a t M r v a n

W y k s a id a c c o r d in g to y o u s h o u ld b e a d d e d t o y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e g o i n g to b e m e m b e r s o f th e c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s h e m e n ti o n s y o u a ff id a v i t u s e s t h e w o r d

shareholders.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t ja , b u t y o u u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e y o u w e r e a s o le

m e m b e r o f t h e c c b e f o r e y o u k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t th a t m e a n t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s th a t h e w a n te d t h e m t o b e
m e m b e r s o f y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n to g e th e r w i t h y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s Tl a ts a n a , w h o w a s p r o p o s e s f o r t h e

p o s i ti o n o f a c c o u n t a n t?
MS BABADI TLASANA: The accountant was proposed by Mr van Wyk.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w a s t h a t t o b e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : H e w a s Mr D a v i d K a lis il ir a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .

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CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y.

T h e f ir s t t w o p e r s o n s , w a s t h e r e a n

in d i c a t io n a s to w h a t t h e y ’r e r o le w a s g o i n g t o b e i n t h e c lo s e
c o r p o r a t io n o r w a s i t s i m p l y t h a t th e y s h o u l d b e m e m b e r s o f t h e c lo s e
c o r p o r a t io n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

T h e y ’r e r o l e w a s t o c o m e a n d a s s i s t in t h e

s m o o t h r u n n i n g o f . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e b u s i n e s s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g to g e t o r th a t y o u
a r e g e t ti n g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s Tl a ts a n a , i f y o u s t a y o n p a g e 11 b u t g o
t o t h e b o t to m a t p a r a g r a p h 4 .9 a s I r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u e x p l a i n e d
h o w M r Vi c to r T h a b e n g w a s s u g g e s t e d t o b e o n e o f th e m e m b e r s . C a n
y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s , a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a m e e t i n g w it h - M r

G w a b e n i t o l d m e t h a t h e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h Mr v a n W y k .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t r e m i n d u s w h o w a s M r G w a b e n i ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Mr G w a b e n i w a s th e C h a ir m a n o f N o r th w e s t

Tr a n s p o r t In v e s t m e n t .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e p e r s o n w h o y o u m e n t io n e d p r e v i o u s ly in

y o u r te s t i m o n y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d o f th a t o f t h e

Tr a n s p o r t N o r t h w e s t Tr a n s p o r t I n v e s t m e n t C o m p a n y.

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M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d y o u w e r e t e l li n g u s a b o u t t h a t
m e e ti n g .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s a n d th e n h e s a i d h e m e t w i t h M r v a n W y k
a n d th e y ’v e a g r e e d t h a t M r Vi c to r T h a b e n g w o u ld b e a n o t h e r s u i t a b l e
p e r s o n t o b e i n th e c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u k n o w h o w h e c a m e t o t a lk t o – t h a t is

M r v a n W y k - h o w h e c a m e t o b e t a l k i n g t o M r G w a b e n i a b o u t th is – y o u
10

– you did not know how he …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a m e t o b e ta lk in g to h i m a b o u t i t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I d o n o t C h a ir b e c a u s e m e I a m s t a y i n g in

M a f ik e n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d M r v a n W y k i s in J o h a n n e s b u r g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d t h e C h a ir m a n I d o n o t k n o w …
CHAIRPERSON: Where he …?
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : W h e r e w e r e t h e y m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A ll I k n o w i s I g a v e – I g a v e M r v a n W y k

M r G w a b e n i’s t e l e p h o n e n u m b e r s . S o t h a t t h e y c a n b e c o m m u n ic a t i n g
t o a s s i s t t o h e a r b e c a u s e Mr G w a b e n i w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e is g o i n g t o
g iv e t h is p r o p o s a l t o M r M o l a p is i .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

N o , n o w I – I th in k I f o r g o t s o m e t h i n g y o u h a d

explained.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o Mr v a n W y k g o t in t o u c h w i t h M r G w a b e n i …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u h a d s p o k e n to M r G w a b e n i …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : B e fo r e .
CHAIRPERSON: And you said …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t w o s h o u l d b e – t h e y s h o u ld c o n t a c t e a c h o t h e r ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

N o n o w I u n d e r s t a n d ; b u t w it h r e g a r d t o th e

p e o p l e w h o M r v a n W y k w a s s a y in g s h o u l d b e a d d e d t o y o u r c o m p a n y –
t o y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n d i d y o u – d i d h e e x p l a i n h o w h e k n e w t h e m
a n d h o w h e g o t to c o m e t o th e d e c i s i o n t h a t t h e y a r e t h e p e o p l e h e
w o u ld p r o p o s e s h o u l d b e i n v o l v e d i n y o u r c o m p a n y ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Chair what happened was – let me make –

g iv e y o u t h e p i c t u r e o f w h a t h a p p e n e d ? M r v a n W y k I t h i n k h e c a m e o n
– o n Th u r s d a y. I t w a s o n T h u r s d a y w h e n h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t th is th in g
20

h a s to b e d o n e q u i c k , q u ic k , q u ic k . T h is p e o p le w e h a v e t o p u t th e m i n
– i n t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e – b e c a u s e y o u a r e b e i n g a p r e fe r r e d b i d d e r
a n d y o u h a v e t o l e t m a k e th is q u ic k . I – I n e v e r e v e n h a d a c h a n c e t o
think …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O r to d o i t b e c a u s e I b r o u g h t m y s is t e r a n d m y

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s is t e r w a s n e p o t is m a n d n o w I w a s b lo c k e d w h o e ls e n o w c o u l d I t h i n k
o f b r in g i n g i n t o th e c o m p a n y. H e n c e h e s a i d n o , n o o k a y I w il l a s s is t .
T h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o h e w il l b r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MS BABADI TLASANA: It was just in a squeezed time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To o q u ic k , j a .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t c a n I t a k e it t h e n t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e i s th a t
10

h e d i d n o t o ff e r a n e x p l a n a t io n fo r w h y t h o s e p a r ti c u l a r p e o p l e s h o u ld
b e t h e p e o p le t o j o i n y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n ?

Did he say why he was

c h o o s i n g M s P h ir i a n d M r T h a b e n g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Fo r t h e m t o b e – i t is p a r t o f th e r e q u ir e m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o M s Tl a ts a n a I u n d e r s t a n d h e s a id i t i s a

r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t t h e y b e a d d e d , r ig h t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
s p e c i f ic

as

I

That people were added but then he was

u n d e r s ta n d

your

e v id e n c e .

He

said

M s C a t h e r i n e J o y c e P h ir i m u s t b e a d d e d a n d M r Vic t o r T h a b e n g a n d
20

w h a t I a m p r o b i n g is d i d h e t e ll y o u w h y th o s e tw o s p e c if ic p e o p le m u s t
b e t h e o n e s i n t h e c o m p a n y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u a s k h i m w h y ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No I did not ask him why because there was –
I d i d n o t a s k h i m w h y. N o C h a i r I d i d n o t a s k h i m .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u – a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u la t e r

f o u n d o u t a b o u t a c e r t a i n r e la t io n s h i p b e t w e e n M r v a n W y k a n d o n e o r
m o r e o f t h e m . W h a t – w h a t is th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J a . I – I la t e r r e a l is e d th a t n o w Ms P h ir i i s –
is t h e m o th e r t o Br ia n ’s l i fe p a r tn e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s h is l i fe p a r t n e r ’s n a m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m s o r r y. Mr B r i a n v a n W y k ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t is

M r B r i a n v a n W y k ’s

l i fe

p a r t n e r ’s

name?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s . H i s li f e p a r t n e r is S i p h o L e v y P h ir i .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s Tl a ts a n a h o w d id y o u e s t a b li s h t h a t

in f o r m a ti o n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Of – of them?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O f th e l i n k – t h e l i n k b e t w e e n M s P h ir i b e in g

t h e m o t h e r o f M r S i p h o P h ir i w h o w a s th e l if e p a r t n e r o f M r v a n W y k .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

T h i s – t h is i n fo r m a t i o n C h a ir i t c a m e –

b e c a u s e e v e r y d a y w il l h a v e i ts o w n t h i n g t o u n f o l d – t h i n g s u n f o l d 20

m o r e i n fo r m a ti o n . I r e a l is e d – w h a t h a p p e n e d f o r m e c a n r e a l is e t h a t .
C a n w e g o b a c k to t h a t o n e a t a l a t e r s t a g e s o t h a t I c a n r e f r e s h m y
mind on how – how …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w y o u e s t a b li s h e d i t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w il l m a k e a n o t e . A lr i g h t t h e n i f w e g o o v e r t o
p a g e 1 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

So – so – but just to make sure one understands.

Yo u s a y M s P h ir i …
M S B A B A D I S Y B I LT L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e m o t h e r o f a c h i l d o r h a d a c h i ld w it h – w i th o r
w a s t h e m o th e r o f …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Mr B r i a n v a n W y k ’s l i fe p a r tn e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o h e w a s t h e m o t h e r o f …
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : M o th e r – i n - la w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr v a n W y k ’s – h m ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t is Mr v a n W y k ’s m o t h e r - i n - l a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

I w i l l – I w i ll c o m e b a c k t o th a t

q u e s t io n a b o u t w h e n y o u le a r n t t h a t i n f o r m a t io n ; b u t w e a r e i n a b o u t
p a g e 1 2 p a r a g r a p h 4 .11 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t .

Yo u

d i d th e n ta k e s te p s t o h a v e t h o s e t w o p e o p l e – Mr T h a b e n g a n d
M s P h ir i – a d d e d a s m e m b e r s o f y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t io n .

Is that

correct?
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s Tl a ts a n a j u s t s o I a m c l e a r o n t h e

e v i d e n c e y o u s a i d h e w a s i n d i c a t e d s o m e u r g e n c y i n g e tt i n g t h a t d o n e .
Is t h a t r ig h t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d l e t u s j u s t g o b a c k t o Mr K a lis il ir a b e c a u s e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
he was the other person that he said needed to be appointed but as an
a c c o u n t a n t. D i d y o u t h e n t a k e s te p s t o e n g a g e Mr K a li s il ir a ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

W e – I – I m e t M r K a l is il ir a – i t s e e m s

t h a t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e – t h e d a t e s a n d t h e ti m e s b u t t h e r e w a s a
m e e ti n g th a t w a s a r r a n g e d th e r e t o – t o m e e t M r K a li s i lir a a n d b e
in tr o d u c e d t o h i m th a t h e w o u l d b e t h e - t h e a c c o u n t a n t – t h e a u d i t o r
f o r t h e c o m p a n y a n d h e is th e o n e w h o w o u l d b e d o i n g o u r b o o k s
b e c a u s e h e is m o r e c o n v e r s a n t w i t h t h e t a x r e l a t e d is s u e s s i n c e h e –
h e u s e d t o w o r k f o r – f o r S A R S a n d h e is f a m il ia r w i t h th e r e q u i r e m e n ts
10

o f S A E x p r e s s i n d o i n g th e i n v o i c e s a n d s t u ff li k e t h a t , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a ju s t t o o r i e n t a t e o u r s e lv e s i n ti m e .
T h a t m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d w i t h M r K a l is il i r a is t h a t b e f o r e o r a f t e r y o u
s ig n e d t h e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s a n d K o r e n e k a ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No it was before.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

W e w i ll c o m e t o th e c o n tr a c t .

I

ju s t w a n t e d to g e t a p o s i ti o n in ti m e o n th a t . If y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o
p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

Yo u t a l k t h e r e a b o u t a n e w a c c o u n t t h a t

n e e d e d t o b e o p e n e d . Te l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a r o u n d th a t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. K o r e n e k a E v e n ts M a n a g e r s h a d a
20

– h a d a n a c c o u n t w i t h A b s a B a n k a n d t h e n M r v a n W y k a d v is e d u s t h a t
we go and open an account in FNB.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w a s t h a t n e c e s s a r y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d o n o t k n o w. Th e r e w a s n o r e a s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d id y o u a g r e e th e n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir t o p u t y o u i n th e p ic t u r e . T h e G e n e r a l

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M a n a g e r o f S A E x p r e s s – Mr B r i a n v a n W y k – i s c o m in g h e r e t o – fr o m
t h e b e g i n n i n g – t o a s s is t K o r e n e k a t o r u n s m o o th a n d w i t h a l l th e
r e q u ir e m e n t s h e – h e h a s t a k e n m e th r o u g h w i t h th is p r o c e s s . Th e s e
a r e t h e e x p e c t a ti o n s o f S A E x p r e s s a n d s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s I w o u l d n o t
a s k o r q u e r y. I w a s b e l ie v i n g M r v a n W y k w i th m y li f e th a t a p e r s o n o f
h is c a li b r e is g o i n g o u t o f h is w a y to a s s is t K o r e n e k a t o b e s u c c e s s f u l.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – y o u th o u g h t t h a t h e w a s r e a ll y a s s is ti n g y o u

a n d K o r e n e k a t o g e t t h e b u s i n e s s a n d to b e a b l e to d e l iv e r p r o p e r l y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : By t h e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b y – a t t h a t ti m e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And as a result of that you would not ask him some
q u e s t io n s b e c a u s e y o u t h o u g h t w h a t e v e r h e w a s s a y i n g o r d o i n g h e
w a s h e l p in g y o u …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f w e m o v e t o p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 5 o n p a g e
1 3 - 1 - 3 – y o u r e c o r d t h e r e th a t y o u o p e n e d t h e F N B a c c o u n t in
J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n t h e a ffi d a v i t m o v e s a t p a r a g r a p h s 1 4
– s o r r y - 4 . 1 6 a n d 1 7 t o th e e v e n t s i n A p r i l 2 0 1 5 . C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t
fir s t h a p p e n s i n th a t m o n t h ?
MS BABADI

TLASANA:

I n A p r il 2 0 1 5

that was

the

ti m e

when

M r v a n W y k w a s c o m in g fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d h e w a s –
h e w a s c o m i n g t h e r e a n d th e n h e s a i d s h o u l d – s h o u ld w e m e e t s o t h a t
I c a n s i g n t h e c o n tr a c t f o r K o r e n e k a t h a t I – t h a t K o r e n e k a e n te r e d in t o
with SA Express.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id y o u m e e t w i t h h i m to d o t h a t?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e d i d y o u m e e t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I n m y o ff ic e i n th e i n d u s tr i a l s i t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d h e b r in g w i th h i m f o r y o u to s i g n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

H e – h e b r o u g h t s o m e d o c u m e n ts .

It

w a s p il e s o f p a p e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p a c k o f d o c u m e n ts ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r e a d th e m b e f o r e y o u s i g n e d t h e m ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

W i th th e tr u s t th a t I h a d f o r h i m b e c a u s e h e

ju s t c a m e w it h t h e d o c u m e n t s a n d th e n h e t o ld m e t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e
c o n tr a c ts t h a t y o u h a v e t o s i g n f o r – f o r y o u b e i n g a w a r d e d t h e – th e
project and I just signed.

H e w a s te ll i n g m e t h a t I m u s t i n i t ia l e v e r y

p a g e a n d s h o w e d m e w h e r e to s ig n a t t h e b a c k a s w e l l .

Page 151 of 224

I did not go

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
through them.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a i t i s q u i t e i m p o r ta n t f o r u s t o k n o w
w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t y o u w e r e s ig n i n g o r c o n c l u d e d o n e o r t w o
a g r e e m e n ts a n d – a n d I w a n t t o ju s t d ir e c t y o u t o w h e r e m y q u e s t io n
a r i s e s f r o m b e c a u s e a t p a g e 1 3 p a r a g r a p h 4 .1 7 …
MS BABADI TLASANA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u th e r e s a y o n 1 5 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 :
“ I a t t e n d e d t o th e s i g n in g o f t h e c o n tr a c ts … ”
10

Plural.
“…with

Mr van Wyk

and

then

according

to

M r v a n W y k t h e c o n tr a c t s w o u l d b e f o r w a r d e d t o t h e
d e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n it y, S a f e ty a n d Tr a n s p o r t
M a n a g e m e n t in t h e N o r t h W e s t Pr o v in c e f o r th e ir
in f o r m a ti o n a n d f u t u r e u s e a n d t h a t I w o u l d r e c e i v e
a c o p y t h e r e o f a t a l a t e r s ta g e . ”
I f y o u t h e n j u s t j u m p d o w n to 4 . 1 8 y o u s a y t h e r e :
“ I a t t a c h th e g r o u n d h a n d li n g a g r e e m e n ts t h a t I
s ig n e d . ”
20

A n d y o u s a y t h e y a r e a tt a c h e d a s A n n e x u r e s A 1 a n d A 2 . W e
w i ll g o t o t h e m in a m o m e n t b u t I w a n t to e x p l a in t o y o u w h a t m y
d i ff ic u l ty is . I – I c e r ta in ly c a n i d e n t if y y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n A 1 . L e t u s g o
t h e r e . A 1 y o u w ill fi n d a t p a g e 9 2 – 9 - 2 o f th e f il e i n f r o n t o f y o u . T h a t
w i ll b e u n d e r t h e fi r s t t a b …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And that agreement is an agreement – who –

w h o a r e t h e p a r ti e s ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

It is an agreem ent between SA Express and

K o r e n e k a Tr a d i n g a n d P r o j e c ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir t h a t is th e a g r e e m e n t w e h a v e b e e n

r e fe r r i n g t o a s th e K o r e n e k a A g r e e m e n t.
r e fe r to i t s i m il a r ly t o d a y.

M s Tl a ts a n a I a m g o i n g to

W e a r e g o i n g to c a l l th a t t h e K o r e n e k a

A g r e e m e n t , o k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o to p a g e 1 - 0 - 9 o n th a t a g r e e m e n t. C a n
y o u i d e n ti f y y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n t h a t p a g e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. T h e r e is my s i g n a t u r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r – o n t o p o f t h e li n e f o r K o r e n e k a Tr a d i n g
a n d Pr o j e c t s tr a d i n g a s K o r e n e k a F a c il it ie s m a n a g e m e n t .

Is t h a t

correct?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h e n y o u s i g n e d it w e r e t h e s ig n a tu r e s

above it on the page or not?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t w a s – b y t h e n i t w a s t h e o n e o n to p .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H a d i t a l r e a d y b e e n s i g n e d b e fo r e y o u s i g n e d

it ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d o y o u i d e n t if y a n y o f – e i t h e r o f t h o s e

s ig n a tu r e s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e o n e t h a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t C h a ir ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e o n e t h a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k y o u s e e o n t h a t p a g e w h e r e i t s a y s w i tn e s s

o n e . C a n y o u s e e th a t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you – do you know that signature?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s e s i g n a t u r e is i t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t is fo r M r Te b o g o Br ia n v a n W y k .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e r e is a n o th e r s i g n a t u r e a b o v e w h e r e i t s a y s

S o u th A fr ic a Ex p r e s s A ir w a y s . D o y o u s e e th a t s ig n a t u r e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know it?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I o n l y h a d t o k n o w t h is s ig n a t u r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Afterwards
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Tw o w e e k s b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h a t it – i t b e lo n g s t o Mr D a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h o s e s i g n a t u r e is it ?
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Mr D a v e A l le n b y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t th e ti m e y o u s ig n e d t h i s – th is c o n tr a c t y o u d i d
not know the signature?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o I d id n o t k n o w th e s ig n a tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D i d y o u a s k a t t h e ti m e w h o s i g n e d h e r e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o . Ye s , h e w a s s a y in g t h a t i t is th e C E O .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y a lr i g h t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n if w e g o t o t h e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t th a t
y o u r e f e r t o w h ic h i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t w a s r e f e r e n c e d a s A 2 . Yo u f in d t h a t
a t p a g e 1 - 2 - 1 a n d t h a t a g r e e m e n t i f y o u g o th r o u g h i t r i g h t to i ts e n d a t
p a g e 1 - 5 - 5 y o u w i ll s e e th a t t h e r e i s a p a r t f o r s i g n a t u r e t h e r e fo r th e
H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i ty, S a f e ty a n d
Tr a n s p o r t M a n a g e m e n t N o r th W e s t P r o v in c e . D o y o u s e e t h a t?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e r e is – C h a ir i n t h is v e r s i o n o f t h e

a g r e e m e n t w h ic h i s t h e o n e t h a t w a s p r e s e n te d i n M s T la ts a n a ’s H i g h
C o u r t a ff id a v i t t h e – t h e fo ll o w i n g p a g e is a c t u a ll y o m it t e d b u t w e h a v e
s e e n t h a t in t h e e v id e n c e o f M s P h a t u d i t h is m o r n i n g . T h e n e x t p a g e is
w h e r e S A Ex p r e s s c o u n t e r s i g n s it .

W e c a n f in d t h a t r e fe r e n c e i n a

moment but …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e p o in t f o r i m p o r ta n c e n o w i s M s T la ts a n a I

d o n o t s e e i n t h is a g r e e m e n t a n y e v i d e n c e th a t y o u s ig n e d t h is
20

a g r e e m e n t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h e n y o u s a i d i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u s i g n e d

t h e c o n tr a c ts A 1 a n d A 2 t h a t w a s i n c o r r e c t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Th e c o n tr a c ts I s ig n e d C h a ir b e c a u s e i t w a s

b u n d l e s – i t w a s b u n d le s o f …

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r y o u s i g n e d o n e c o n tr a c t o r y o u
s ig n e d tw o c o n tr a c ts o r y o u s i g n e d t h r e e c o n tr a c ts ? Yo u w e r e g i v e n a
bundle of documents?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But you - and you signed?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s a n d I s i g n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t o y o u r k n o w le d g e d i d y o u s i g n o n e c o n t r a c t o r

more?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : W h y I s a i d b u n d l e s C h a ir b e c a u s e Mr v a n W y k
10

s a y s – s a i d th e o th e r c o n t r a c t is g o in g t o g o t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
Tr a n s p o r t .

Th e o t h e r o n e i s g o i n g t o g o to S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e n t h e

o th e r o n e i t – i t w il l b e w i th h i m th a t – t h a t c o n tr a c t w ill b e b e lo n g i n g to
K o r e n e k a Tr a d i n g a n d P r o je c ts a f t e r a l l t h e s ig n a tu r e s a r e b e i n g
a tt a c h e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t tr y a n d c a s t y o u r m i n d b a c k t o …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: When you signed …
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

On that occasion.

Do you know as a matter of fact

w h e t h e r y o u s i g n e d o n e c o n ta c t w h i c h h a d a n o r i g i n a l v e r s i o n a n d
c o p i e s – y o u s ig n e d c o p ie s o f t h e s a m e c o n tr a c t o r y o u s i g n e d o n e
c o n tr a c t o n ly o r y o u s ig n e d t w o c o n tr a c ts o r t h r e e c o n tr a c ts w i t h – w i th
c o p i e s ? D o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n is ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
D i d y o u c h e c k w h e t h e r y o u w e r e s i g n in g o n e c o n tr a c t o r y o u
w e r e s i g n i n g t w o c o n tr a c ts o r y o u w e r e s i g n i n g a c o n tr a c t p l u s c o p i e s
o f t h e s a m e c o n tr a c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a i r t o b e h o n e s t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. I w a s
ju s t in i ti a l li n g a n d s i g n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : To b e h o n e s t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS BABADI TLASANA: I do not (intervene).
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n o t a s k f o r a c o p y t o – c o p i e s o f w h a t e v e r

y o u s i g n e d t o r e m a i n w it h y o u ?
MS BABADI

TLASANA:

Because

now

the

s ig n a tu r e s

were

not

c o m p le t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Were not complete, yes.
MS BABADI TLASANA: So – yes …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d I h a d to w a i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Fo r t h e o n e t h a t I s ig n e d t o c o m e b a c k .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t y o u a c t u a ll y o n ly g o t

c o p i e s o f t h e c o n tr a c t m u c h l a t e r o n i n 2 0 1 5 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Beginning of 2016.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e a r e n o w i n A p r il 2 0 1 5 , r i g h t . A s I h a v e i t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
a t p a g e 1 3 it is o n 1 5 A p r il th a t y o u s ig n e d t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t
M r v a n W y k b r o u g h t to y o u . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a ls o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r te s t i m o n y to b e y o u h a d
n o t ta k e n ti m e to r e a d th o s e c o n tr a c t s b e fo r e s ig n i n g t h e m .

Is th a t

correct?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t h a p p e n s th e r e a f t e r ?

When do you

c o m m e n c e w o r k u n d e r th e c o n t r a c t?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e – m a y b e b e fo r e t h a t . Yo u h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d

in b u s i n e s s e s f o r s o m e t i m e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d h a d K o r e n e k a f o r a b o u t s e v e n y e a r s . Is th a t
r ig h t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: As in 2015?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u h a d b e e n in v o lv e d in t h e b u s i n e s s o f d e liv e r i n g

m e a t t o h o s p i ta ls …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Through Koreneka …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a d h a d a n o t h e r c o m p a n y o r e n ti ty w h ic h y o u
u s e d in t h e c o n s tr u c t io n i n d u s tr y i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u d id a p p r e c ia t e – d i d y o u n o t – th e

i m p o r t a n c e o f r e a d in g d o c u m e n ts b e fo r e y o u s i g n e d th e m ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir w i t h my e x p e r i e n c e a n d – l e t m e c o r r e c t
you

–

let

me

correct

s o m e t h in g

here.

Koreneka

was

–

had

s u b c o n tr a c t e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s i n t e r m s o f w h ic h – w h ic h b u s i n e s s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : W h e n w e w e r e d e liv e r in g m e a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a s u b c o n tr a c to r ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s i t w a s a s u b c o n tr a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a f o r – w h o w a s t h e c o n tr a c t o r ? D o y o u r e m e m b e r ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Oh my God.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o n o t w o r r y i f y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r.

O k a y t h a t is

fi n e .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e i t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

Q u i t e b a c k ; a n d w i th th e – w i t h t h e – w it h

d o i n g t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n w o r k w e – w e s e n d o u t a b i d .

W e p u t a ll o u r

in f o r m a ti o n t h e r e . T h e o n ly t h in g t h a t w e w i ll b e s i g n i n g w i th th e – w i th
t h e – w i t h t h e d e p a r t m e n t – w i t h c o n s tr u c t io n is th e J B B . I t h i n k i t i s –
it is f o u r t o f iv e p a g e s .

J B B i s j u s t – J B C C – i t is j u s t a s m a l l

document.
T h a t is t h e o n e t h a t w e a l w a y s s i g n t o – a ft e r w e h a v e b e e n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
awarded the work and then it would be attached into the tender
d o c u m e n t w h e r e th e p r i c e s a n d e v e r y t h in g a r e t h e r e , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e p o i n t y o u s e e k to m a k e w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o
that?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

S o – n o – C h a ir w a s s a y i n g a n d th e n I ju s t

s ig n e d w it h o u t r e a d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, no what – what I – what I meant was you were

not new …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : In d o i n g b u s i n e s s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t r i g h t?

S o n o w I a m a s k i n g y o u th e q u e s ti o n

w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f r e a d i n g d o c u m e n ts b e f o r e
you signed them.

Was that you some thing you understood as a

b u s i n e s s p e r s o n a s s o m e b o d y w h o w a s n o t n e w in b u s in e s s o r y o u d i d
n o t u n d e r s ta n d ? I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e
i m p o r t a n c e o f r e a d i n g d o c u m e n t s a n d u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h e m b e f o r e
s ig n in g th e m .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

C h a ir w i th r e g a r d t o th e

s i tu a ti o n o f K o r e n e k a w h e n – w h e n w e w e r e s i g n i n g t h e c o n tr a c t I w a s
t o l d t h a t w e n e e d t o s i g n t h is c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e th e y h a v e t o g o –
b e c a u s e i t w a s la t e . I t w a s a t a b o u t f o u r a n d M r v a n W y k h a d t o r u n t o
– t o c o m e b a c k to – to J o h a n n e s b u r g .
I t w a s la t e i n th e a f t e r n o o n a n d t h e n h e a s k e d m e to – to s i g n
a n d y e s it w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r m e t o h a v e r e a d t h e d o c u m e n t b u t n o w

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b e c a u s e o f ti m e a n d h e w il l s a y t h a t j u s t s i g n t h e s e t h i n g s a n d t h e n y o u
a r e g o i n g t o g e t t h e d o c u m e n t a f te r y o u h a v e s i g n e d . I w a s a s k in g h i m
c a n I n o t h a v e t h is d o c u m e n t s o t h a t I c a n g o t h r o u g h i t .
H e s a i d n o , n o i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y. J u s t b e s ig n i n g t h is t h i n g
- th e s e d o c u m e n ts b e c a u s e I a m g o i n g t o J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d I a m
a v o i d i n g to a r r iv e la t e .

D r i v i n g i n th e n i g h t is n o t s a f e a n d t h e n t h a t

d o c u m e n t is g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k t o y o u a ft e r a l l t h e s i g n a t u r e s a r e
b e i n g a tt a c h e d a n d t h e n y o u c a n h a v e – y o u c a n g o th r o u g h t h a t
d o c u m e n t o n y o u r o w n . Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n h e – w h e n h e s a id th a t d id y o u a p p r e c ia t e t h a t
r e a d in g it a f te r y o u h a v e s i g n e d m i g h t n o t h e l p i f i t w a s a d o c u m e n t
that you should not have signed?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

C h a ir w i t h t h e tr u s t t h a t I – I p u t o n

Mr van Wyk. He – he was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t t h in k t h e r e w a s a n y d a n g e r ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I – I n e v e r – I n e v e r t h o u g h t C h a ir b e c a u s e o f
t h e jo u r n e y th a t – t h a t h a s b e e n t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e – th e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : H o n e s t j o u r n e y o f I a m h e r e to a s s is t y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : S o t h a t t h is th in g c a n g o w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t w h a t g a v e y o u s o m e c o m f o r t th a t e v e r y t h i n g

w o u ld b e f in e ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m ; b u t y o u k n e w t h e d a n g e r s o f s i g n i n g w it h o u t

r e a d in g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t th a t y o u - y o u tr u s te d h i m ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I tr u s t e d – I t r u s t e d M r v a n W y k C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u fo ll o w u p a ft e r t h e 1 5 t h f o r a c o p y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I m m e d ia t e l y a f t e r th e 1 5 t h it w a s – i t w a s i n a
v e r y s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e b e c a u s e n o w th e c o n tr a c t i s b e i n g s i g n e d a n d
n o w p e o p l e h a v e to g o o n tr a i n in g a n d t h e n w e h a v e i n c e p t o n 1 M a y.
S o i t n e v e r r a n g a b e l l t h a t I s h o u ld d e m a n d f o r t h e c o n tr a c t b y t h e n
b e c a u s e t h e o n – o n jo b …
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr van Wyk

seemed

to

be

d e l iv e r i n g ?

D id

M r v a n W y k s e e m t o b e d e liv e r in g o n h is p r o m is e s i n t e r m s o f n o w y o u
– y o u r c o m p a n y – y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n w a s s ta r t in g t o tr a in p e o p l e
f o r t h e b u s i n e s s th a t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e in v o lv e d i n ?
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e t h e r e h a s t o b e a s e le c ti o n o f …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : P e o p le w h o w o u l d b e w o r k i n g . S o i t w a s – i t
w a s in a v e r y s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e b e c a u s e n o w w e w e r e t o l o o k in t o
o th e r t h i n g s f o r t h e s m o o t h r u n n i n g o f t h e p r o j e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s T l a t s a n a w i th o u t a c o p y o f t h e c o n tr a c t h o w

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d i d y o u k n o w w h a t s e r v i c e s y o u w e r e g o i n g t o b e p r o v id in g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s . Th a t is a v e r y g o o d o n e . I – a c c o r d i n g
t o th e c o n tr a c t M r v a n W y k to l d m e t h a t w a s e n ta il e d i n t h e c o n tr a c t is
g r o u n d h a n d l in g . G r o u n d h a n d li n g is t o g e t t h e – th e s t a ff w h o w il l b e
b r i n g i n g i n t h e b a g s f o r p e o p l e fr o m th e f li g h t in a n d o u t a n d t h e
m a r s h a ls th a t w il l b e d ir e c t in g th e – t h e f li g h t .
I t w a s a l l th e d u ti e s t h a t a r e – o k a y I w i ll n o t s a y a ll t h e
d u t ie s . Ye s t h a t w h a t - h e s a i d t h a t t h a t is w h a t is g o i n g to – t o h a p p e n
b e c a u s e th o s e w e r e th e s t a ff w h o w e r e n e e d e d to g o a n d d o t h e j o b
10

a n d t h e n a g a in h e s a i d th e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t – t h e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t
t h a t is e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t t h a t t h e s ta ff – t h e
s t a ff w h o h a s b e e n t h e r e t h a t w a s b e l o n g i n g t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
P u b l ic W o r k s th a t w e r e d o i n g t h e c l e a n in g a n d th e g a r d e n in g K o r e n e k a
w i ll h a v e t o a b s o r b t h a t s t a ff a n d t h e y w i ll b e d o i n g t h e c l e a n i n g a n d
t h e g a r d e n i n g a n d e v e r y t h in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id i t n o t w o r r y y o u t h a t y o u h a d a p p r o a c h e d S A

E x p r e s s w a n ti n g t o s e l l a n i d e a o f – y o u r id e a o f s o m e b u s i n e s s t o d o
with them but as I understand your evidence now but now there were a
lo t o f t h i n g s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n in g a n d m e e t in g s th a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g
20

w h e r e y o u w e r e n o t in v o lv e d a n d t h e r e w a s j u s t s o m e b o d y c o m in g a n d
s a y in g t o y o u n o w th is is w h a t is h a p p e n i n g .
T h i s is w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g b u t y o u w e r e n o t y o u r s e l f i n v o l v e d
in d is c u s s in g w i t h t h o s e p e o p le w h a t w a s t o h a p p e n .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir b y t h e n – b y t h e n i t – i t n e v e r c a m e i n to
m y m i n d b e c a u s e t h e w h o l e t h i n g w a s le t u s j u s t t a k e – t a k e t h e w o r k

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a n d l e t u s j u s t g o a h e a d w i t h t h e w o r k . N o w l a te r i s t h e n n o w – w h e n
n o w a ll th e s e t h in g s h a p p e n s a n d t h e n I b e g in to a s k my s e l f b u t w h y
d i d I l e t t h i s – h o w d i d t h is h a p p e n .
Yo u e n d u p – I e n d e d u p a s k i n g m y s e l f b u t w h y d i d I a l lo w
t h is . Ev e n t h o u g h – e v e n th o u g h y e s I w a s – I w a s p e r s u a d in g h i m t o
g iv e m e t h e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e I n e e d t o k n o w t h e r e a r e l o ts o f w o r k t h a t
w e a r e d o i n g a n d t h e n a r e th e y i n th e c o n t r a c t . H e w a s s a y i n g y e s y o u
a r e b e i n g a p p o i n t e d n o w.
J u s t b e d o i n g t h e w o r k a n d t h a t is w h y a g a i n I e n d e d u p
10

a p p r o a c h t h e a ir p o r t m a n a g e r – t h e a ir p o r t m a n a g e r.
always not around.

M r v a n W y k is

W h e n I t r i e d t o c o n t a c t h i m h e is n o t i n .

H e is

never in anywhere. Can you just give me the copies so that I can be
a c q u a in t w i t h t h a t w e a r e d o i n g ? Is i t e x a c tl y w h a t is i n th e c o n tr a c t?
M r v a n W y k – M r M a lg a d i c o n fir m e d t h a t y e s t h i s i s t h e a g r e e m e n t –
t h is – t h e s e th i n g s a r e in th e a g r e e m e n t M s T l a t s a n a . K o r e n e k a h a s to
d o a ll th o s e d u t i e s a n d to b e d o in g th e – t h e g a r d e n in g i n t h e a i r p o r t , to
b e d o i n g th e c l e a n i n g i n th e a ir p o r t b u t i n a n y w a y f o r n o w I d o n ’t h a v e
a n y th in g h e o n ly m a d e m e a c o p y o f t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t t h e
fir s t p a g e a n d th e l a s t p a g e o f t h e S e r v i c e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t w h i ls t I
20

w a s w a it i n g f o r h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o h e h a d to l d y o u th a t t h is w a s g o in g t o b e a
b i g p r o je c t o r b u s i n e s s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

I’ m c o n c e r n e d t h a t y o u s i g n e d lo ts o f d o c u m e n ts

without reading them, you could have been handing over your company

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t o h i m , y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

I m e a n Mr v a n W y k I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h e w i ll c o m e ,

w h a t h e w i ll s a y w h e n h e c o m e s h e r e , b u t h e m i g h t s a y h e g a v e y o u t h e
ti m e t o r e a d , y o u k n e w e x a c tl y w h a t y o u w e r e s i g n i n g .

He might say

y o u a r e n o t n e w in b u s i n e s s , y o u k n e w w h a t y o u w e r e s i g n i n g , h e m i g h t
s a y y o u u n d e r s t a n d E n g li s h p e r f e c tl y. H e m i g h t s a y h e w o u l d h a v e h a d
n o r e a s o n n o t t o g i v e y o u a c h a n c e to r e a d t h e d o c u m e n ts i f y o u
w a n t e d t o r e a d th e m , w h a t w o u l d y o u s a y if h e c o m e s a n d s a y s a l l o f
10

those things?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

C h a ir Mr v a n W y k c a m e la t e t o t h e – to m y

o ffic e , b e c a u s e I w a it e d f o r h i m t h e w h o l e d a y, h e c a m e l a t e a n d h e
a s k e d m e t o s i g n t h e d o c u m e n t a n d h e s a i d th e s e s ig n a tu r e s a r e n o t
c o m p le t e , y o u h a v e t o c o m p le t e t h e r e s t o f t h e s ig n a tu r e s b u t y o u to , t o
c o n fir m t o y o u t h a t y e s y o u a r e b e i n g a p p o i n t e d , s i g n t h e s e t h i n g s
b e c a u s e I h a v e to g o , i t ’s g e t ti n g l a te , I h a v e t o g o b a c k t o J o ’b u r g , a n d
it is n o t s a fe f o r m e to b e d r iv in g i n th e e v e n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e t e ll y o u w h y h e c o u l d n ’ t le a v e t h e d o c u m e n ts
with you and you would send them to him in due course after you’ve
20

read them.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s h e s a id h e h a s t o c o m e t o J o ’ b u r g a n d

c o m p le t e t h e s i g n a tu r e s b e c a u s e w e a r e o n ly l e ft w i t h t h e 1 2 d a y s b y
t h e n t o s t a r t th e b u s i n e s s , t o s t a r t w i t h t h e fl ig h ts a t P il a n e s b e r g , a n d
t h e n b e c a u s e P il a n e s b e r g w e s ta r t e d i t in t h e 1 s t o f M a y a n d t h e n
M a f ik e n g w e s t a r t e d 1 s t o f S e p t e m b e r.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Tl a ts a n a j u s t a fo ll o w u p t o t h a t , I c a n

u n d e r s t a n d i f t h e s t a r t d a te i s t h e 1 s t o f M a y y o u h a v e to g e t m o v in g
q u ic k ly, b u t w h y

is t h a t n o t a r e a s o n fo r e i t h e r l e a v in g a c o p y o f a

c o n tr a c t w i th y o u o r m a k i n g s u r e t h a t y o u ’ v e g o t e n o u g h ti m e t o r e a d i t
a n d s ig n i t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

L ik e I j u s t s a i d C h a ir i t w o u l d s e e m t h a t th e

s ig n a tu r e s a r e n o t c o m p le t e , b e c a u s e it w a s o n ly M r L N B a n d m y
s ig n a tu r e i n t h e c o n t r a c t a n d th e n h e s a id h e ’s d r iv in g d o w n t o J o ’ b u r g ,
a ft e r h e h a s g o t te n a ll t h e s i g n a t u r e s h e w i ll s u r e ly b r i n g b a c k m y
10

c o n tr a c t, t h e c o n tr a c t f o r K o r e n e k a b a c k to K o r e n e k a a t s o m e s ta g e
a n d n o w w h e n I w a s b u s y a s k i n g h i m o f t h e c o n tr a c t h e w a s a l w a y s n o t
– never anywhere.

Fo r m e i t ’s a t t h e m e e ti n g th a t h e h a s l e f t i t , i t’s

s t il l w i t h t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t , i t ’s i n m y o ff ic e , I w i ll b r i n g it , i t w a s
ju s t s o m a n y s t o r ie s a b o u t th e c o n tr a c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o I m u s t j u s t s a y it j u s t c o n c e r n s m e t h a t y o u

h a v e a n e n t i ty t h a t y o u h a v e p u t to g e t h e r a n d y o u s i g n d o c u m e n ts t h a t
y o u h a v e n ’ t r e a d w i t h s o m e b o d y, h o w lo n g h a d y o u k n o w n h i m b y th e n
w h e n y o u s i g n e d , Mr v a n W y k , h o w l o n g h a d y o u k n o w n h i m ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

I t ’s n o t lo n g C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t , a m o n t h , t h r e e m o n th s , s ix m o n t h s ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Seven months.
CHAIRPERSON: About seven months.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I ’ m j u s t r e s p o n d in g , I ’ m n o t q u i t e . . .

C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d y o u b e e n to h i s o ff ic e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o , I ’v e n e v e r b e e n t o h is o ffic e .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u k n o w w h e r e h e li v e d ?

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

N o , I k n e w a t a l a te r s ta g e w h e n n o w th e r e

w a s a d o c u m e n t th a t – w h ic h d o c u m e n t – b e c a u s e t h a t o th e r d a y h e
s a i d I s h o u ld c o m e a n d m e e t h i m in J o ’b u r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t a t t h e t i m e y o u s i g n e d th e s e
d o c u m e n ts w i th o u t r e a d i n g t h e m , d i d y o u k n o w w h e r e h e l iv e d a t t h a t
ti m e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r, I d o n ’ t k n o w i f it w a s

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u k n e w w h e r e h e li v e d
at that time.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly g e t to k n o w w h e r e h e l iv e d ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s , d id y o u k n o w a n y b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t h i m a t t h e

ti m e y o u s ig n e d th e s e d o c u m e n ts t h a t h e g a v e y o u w i t h o u t r e a d i n g
them?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o C h a ir, C h a ir I tr u s t e d t h e G e n e r a l

M a n a g e r f o r S A Ex p r e s s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u d id n ’t k n o w w h e r e h e l iv e d , y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w

h is b a c k g r o u n d , a n d y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w w h y h e w o u l d b e s o k e e n t o a s s is t
y o u a n d y o u r c o m p a n y e x c e p t t h a t y o u j u s t th o u g h t h e m u s t b e h e l p in g ,
h e m u s t b e c o m m i t t e d t o h e l p i n g y o u I g u e s s , is th a t r i g h t?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s C h a ir, I w a s j u s t – h e w a s th e r e

a s s is ti n g a n d t h e b e li e f, t h e tr u s t , tr u s ti n g t h is s o m u c h .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n ’ t th in k i t p r u d e n t t o t a lk to s o m e b o d y e ls e

a n d g e t a d v ic e h o w to h a n d le t h i s s o t h a t y o u d id n ’ t d e p e n d o n h i m o n l y
in d o i n g t h i n g s a b o u t g e t t in g th e b u s i n e s s t h a t y o u w e r e g e t ti n g .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e o t h e r t h i n g i t ’s j u s t C h a ir I d o n ’ t w a n t to –
b e c a u s e I t o ld t h e C h a ir m a n .. . ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr G o b e n i?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

M r G o b e n i a n d t h e P r e m i e r k n e w th a t t h e r e

is – I h a d t h is i d e a , I d o n ’ t t h in k , I n e v e r t h o u g h t t h a t m a y b e h e c o u l d
m e s s - u p in b e t w e e n b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e p r o m in e n t p e o p le , i f s o m e th i n g
10

t h a t is i n t h e o ffi c e o f P r e m i e r, th e o ffic e I a m t a lk i n g t h e P r o v in c e o f
t h e P r e m i e r, n o o n e c a n j e o p a r d is e th a t a n d . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t th e P r e m i e r h a d n e v e r r e t u r n e d y o u r c a ll s

and you tried many times.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , I’ m s a y in g t h is in a s e n s e t h a t t h a t tr u s t

t h a t I h a d w i th h i m . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON: Was based on that?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s I w a s j u s t r e l a x e d th a t y o u k n o w h e ’s

d e f in i te ly n o t , b e c a u s e i m m e d ia t e l y a f t e r I s ig n e d t h i s a n d th e n th e r e
w a s n o th is e l e c ti o n o f p e o p l e a n d e v e r y t h i n g w a s j u s t n o w m o v i n g f a s t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, n o t h a t ’s f i n e , I ju s t w a n te d t o tr y a n d

understand that part of signing documents without the chance to read
t h e m a n d u n d e r s t a n d t h e m , b u t y e s , y o u t r u s t e d M r v a n W y k , th a t ’s t h e
– t h a t is w h a t d r o v e y o u to s i g n w it h o u t r e a d i n g .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s T la ts a n a I w o u l d li k e to f o l lo w u p j u s t o n

o n e q u e s ti o n in r e l a ti o n t o t h e e x t e n t o f t h a t tr u s t, b e c a u s e a s I
u n d e r s t o o d y o u r t e s ti m o n y a m o m e n t a g o y o u i n d ic a t e d , a n d y o u w i ll
c o r r e c t m e i f I’ m w r o n g , i f m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s in c o r r e c t , y o u s a i d o n e
of the reasons you were given for why you had to rush and weren’t able
t o r e a d i t b e f o r e y o u s i g n e d w a s b e c a u s e y o u n e e d e d t o t a k e i t b a c k to
J o h a n n e s b u r g fo r o t h e r s i g n a t u r e s , d i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly ?

10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s e e Ms T la t s a n a th e d i ffic u l t y I h a v e w i t h

t h a t , a n d I m u s t p u t i t t o y o u s o t h a t y o u c a n a n s w e r i t, i s t h e o n ly
c o n ta c t t h a t i n v o lv e d K o r e n e k a is t h e c o n tr a c t w e ’r e c a ll in g t h e
Koreneka agreement, correct?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
And we looked at the signature page a

m o m e n t a g o , i t ’s a t p a g e 1 0 9 o f t h e b u n d l e i n f r o n t o f y o u , a n d y o u to l d
u s t h a t t h e s i g n a t u r e s w e r e a l r e a d y th e r e f o r S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s a t
t h e ti m e t h a t y o u s i g n e d . N o w i f th a t ’s s o w h y d id n ’ t y o u q u e s ti o n h i m
a n d s a y b u t t h e s i g n a t u r e i s a lr e a d y h e r e , w h a t d o y o u h a v e t o t a k e it
b a c k to J o h a n n e s b u r g f o r ?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

I t w a s o n l y M r – i t w a s o n ly t h e C E O ’s

s ig n a tu r e , h is w a s n o t t h e r e a n d th e r e w e r e n o w i t n e s s e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , b u t t h e r e l e v a n t s ig n a tu r e f o r le g a l

p u r p o s e s is t h e s i g n a t u r e o f t h e C E O , d i d h e g iv e y o u a d i ff e r e n t
u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , t h e s i g n a t u r e o f th e C E O w a s th e r e y e s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
a n d I a t t a c h e d m i n e a n d th e n h e h a d to w a i t a n d g e t t h e w it n e s s e s
b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y in g t h a t h e w il l g e t t h e w i tn e s s e s f r o m S A E x p r e s s
t h e r e b e c a u s e in t h e o ff ic e t h e r e w a s n o o n e t h e r e , I w a s j u s t a l o n e i n
t h e o ffi c e , b e c a u s e i t w a s l a te , e v e r y b o d y h a s g o n e h o m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H e n e v e r g o t o th e r s ig n a tu r e s d id h e , y o u

can see on that page?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o I s a w th is a ft e r s e v e n m o n t h s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w a s h e s p e c i f ic t o s a y i n g w it n e s s e s

needed to sign?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Was he?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d h e s p e c i f ic a l ly s a y w i t n e s s e s n e e d e d t o

s ig n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t w o u ld t h e y b e w i t n e s s e s i f t h e y w e r e n ’ t

with you when you signed?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

E s p e c i a l ly h e w a s t a lk in g a b o u t w i t n e s s e s fo r

S A E x p r e s s , b e c a u s e m e I j u s t s i g n e d a n d I w a s a l o n e i n t h e o ffi c e
b e c a u s e i t w a s a lr e a d y la t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Ms Tlatsana if we can then, I did have another

f o ll o w - u p q u e s t io n , j u s t in r e l a ti o n t o w h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d , s o w e w e r e
g o i n g t h r o u g h w h a t – d e s p i te y o u n o t h a v i n g a c o n t r a c t y o u u n d e r s t o o d
y o u w o u l d b e d o i n g , r i g h t, a n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y to b e y o u
w o u ld b e d o i n g g r o u n d h a n d l in g w h i c h w a s m o v i n g p e o p l e in a n d o u t
a n d t h e r e w a s c e r ta i n c l e a n i n g a n d g a r d e n i n g s e r v ic e s y o u w o u l d n e e d
t o t a k e o v e r, is th a t c o r r e c t ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W a s t h a t c o m m u n ic a t e d t o y o u o n th a t 1 5 t h o f

A p r il w h e n y o u s i g n e d ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o , n o t o n t h e – t h e g a r d e n in g n o t o n t h e 1 5 t h

o f A p r il w h e n I s i g n e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o o n th e 1 5 t h y o u w e r e j u s t t o l d a b o u t

g r o u n d h a n d li n g , is t h a t r ig h t?

10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

I w a s j u s t to l d a b o u t s i g n in g t h e c o n tr a c t.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But what were you signing to do then?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , t o d o , y e s s o t h e c a ll e d g r o u n d h a n d l i n g

a t t h e a ir p o r t a n d t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e o t h e r j o b s t h a t I w il l b e d o in g
w h ic h t h a t d o c u m e n t t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t is e n t a i le d w il l b e g iv e n t o
u s , I t h in k h e w a s ta lk in g r e f e r r i n g t o t h is , t h e S L A a g r e e m e n t w h ic h I
never got it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A n d h o w w e r e y o u g o in g to b e p a i d ?
I d id n ’ t k n o w t h e fo r m a t, t h e a m o u n t t h a t w e

w e r e g o in g t o b e p a i d , a ll I k n o w i s t h is p r o j e c t w a s g o i n g to b e h u g e ,
a n d w i t h m e i n m y h e a d t h e p a y m e n t w a s g o i n g t o b e f o r t h e w o r k th a t
we were to be doing of the ground handling.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

But are you saying you were signing an agreement

w i t h S A E x p r e s s to d o w o r k , t h a t is y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a ti o n , t o p e r f o r m
w o r k a n d y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u w o u l d c h a r g e f o r t h e w o r k . I n o th e r
w o r d s d i d y o u k n o w w h a t th e a g r e e m e n t w a s a s to h o w y o u w o u l d b e
p a i d a s – h o w y o u r c o m p a n y, y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n w o u l d b e p a i d fo r
t h is g r o u n d h a n d li n g w o r k , a n d a t w h a t r a t e i t w o u l d c h a r g e ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

C h a ir I d i d n ’ t k n o w h o w m u c h th e c o m p a n y

w a s g o i n g to b e p a i d fo r t h e w o r k t h a t . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n ’ t e v e n a s k h i m , Mr v a n W y k , le a v in g a s id e

t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h a t m a y h a v e b e e n w r i t t e n i n t h e c o n tr a c t, d i d y o u n o t
ask him to say okay now you have brought an agreement you want me
t o s i g n , n o w y o u m e a n I’ m b in d in g m y c o m p a n y, I’ m b in d in g m y c l o s e
c o r p o r a t io n t o s a y i t w il l d o t h is w o r k b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t i t w i ll b e
p a i d a n d h o w, a t w h a t r a t e i t w i ll b e p a i d a n d h o w I a m s u p p o s e d t o
c h a r g e , d i d y o u t h e n a s k h i m h o w a m I g o i n g t o c h a r g e , w h a t i s th e r a t e
10

that we are agreeing upon?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

O k a y, t h e e x p l a n a ti o n t h a t I r e m e m b e r w a s

t h e s t a ff t h a t w o u l d b e d o i n g t h e w o r k a n d a n e x t r a 1 0 % f o r t h e w o r k
t h a t . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t th a t , t h e s t a ff t h a t w i ll b e d o i n g
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A ll th e s ta ff th a t w e r e to b e d o i n g t h e w o r k o f

t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g , K o r e n e k a is g o i n g t o p a y t h e m a n d p lu s t h e 1 0 %
a d d e d o n t o p fo r t h e a d m in is tr a ti o n p u r p o s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e l l b e fo r e y o u ta lk a b o u t w h a t K o r e n e k a w o u ld b e

t h e w o r k e r s , i ts w o r k e r s , o r t h e w o r k e r s w h o w o u ld d o t h e w o r k I w a n t
t o f in d o u t w h e th e r y o u s a y, y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u s i g n e d a c o n tr a c t th a t
M r v a n W y k g a v e y o u , w h ic h w a s s a y in g y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n w o u l d
d o t h e g r o u n d h a n d li n g w o r k w i th o u t k n o w i n g h o w y o u w o u l d b e p a i d ,
h o w y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n w i ll b e p a i d a n d w o u l d c h a r g e fo r t h a t w o r k .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

C h a ir m y a p o l o g i e s f o r t h is , le t m e j u s t g o a

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
li t tl e b i t b a c k w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u w a n t to g o b a c k a li t tl e b i t .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

W i t h r e g a r d t o th e c h a r g in g I – i t w a s t h a t

t h e p e o p le t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e d o i n g t h e w o r k in t h e o ffi c e , I ’ m s o r r y i f
m a y b e I’ m n o t u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o , n o , I’ m j u s t li s t e n in g , I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d

y o u s e e w h e n o n e r e a d s y o u r s t a t e m e n t , o r a t le a s t w h e n I r e a d it , o n e
g e t s t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n t a k e n a d v a n ta g e o f , o k a y,
b u t I a m e n q u ir in g s o t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r t h a t is th e p o s i ti o n
10

in d e e d o r w h e th e r i t is n o t th e p o s i ti o n , o k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, I t h i n k I m e n t io n e d t h is e a r li e r o n
t h a t y o u k n o w w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u g e t a c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e t h i n g s
w o u ld b e s l e e p in g , w h e n y o u g e t a c o n tr a c t I w a s ju s t s o e x c it e d f o r
y e s t h a n k y o u , w e ’v e g o t t h is w o r k a n d th e n I s i g n e d t h e c o n tr a c t , a n d
in s i d e t h e c o n tr a c t I k n e w t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e s t a ff t h a t w a s g o i n g
t o b e a p p o i n t e d to b e d o i n g t h e p r a c t ic a l j o b o n th e g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w e w il l c o m e t o t h a t , m y q u e s t i o n is d id y o u
s ig n a c o n tr a c t th a t y o u r c o m p a n y, y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t io n w o u ld d o t h e
ground handling work, would employ people and do the ground handling

20

w o r k w i th o u t k n o w i n g w h a t y o u r c o m p a n y w o u l d b e p a i d b y S A
Express.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e Mr v a n W y k s a i d th e

la y o u t o f t h e p a y m e n t f o r t h e w o r k t h a t I a m g o in g to d o is g o i n g t o b e
s e n t a t a la t e r s t a g e , s o t h a t I w o u l d k n o w h o w m u c h w o u l d I b e p a i d
and I didn’t – me I never even expected the other amounts, I was

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k n o w i n g t h a t m a y b e i t c o u l d b e j u s t t o r u n a n d to b e t a k i n g c a r e o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

But

what

did

you

th in k

would

happen

if

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

C o m e a g a in C h a i r ?

W h a t d id y o u t h in k w o u l d h a p p e n i f w h e n t h e w h a t

y o u c a ll la y o u t c a m e l a t e r o n a n d i t r e fl e c t e d th a t th e m o n e y t h a t y o u r
c o m p a n y w o u ld b e p a id w a s s o lo w t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o p a y
t h e s t a ff th a t w o u l d d o t h e w o r k .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w t o a n s w e r t h a t o n e C h a ir

b u t y e s i t’s a n h o n e s t q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e i f I d e c id e t h a t I w a n t t h e o w n e r s o f th is

b u il d in g to g iv e m e a c o n tr a c t t o c le a n t h i s h a ll e v e r y m o r n in g b e f o r e I
can see an agreement with them I need to have an idea how many
workers I am going to need to do this work and have an idea how much
I a m g o in g t o n e e d t o p a y t h e m a n d h a v e a n i d e a h o w m u c h p r o f it I w i ll
a ls o h a v e , a n d h a v e a n id e a w h a t o th e r e x p e n s e s I w il l n e e d t o i n c u r s o
t h a t t h e n w h e n I n e g o ti a t e w i th t h e o w n e r o f t h is b u il d i n g t o s a y t h e y
m u s t g iv e m e a c le a n i n g c o n tr a c t f o r t o c le a n h e r e e v e r y m o r n i n g t h e n I
c a n s a y t o th e m I w o n ’ t a g r e e t o a c o n t r a c t i f w h a t y o u w i ll p a y my
20

c o m p a n y is l e s s t h a n t h i s a m o u n t p e r h o u r, p e r d a y o r w h a te v e r.

Do

y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.

B e c a u s e i f I d o n ’t d o t h a t I j u s t s i g n I m i g h t f i n d t h a t

I n e e d te n w o r k e r s t o w o r k h e r e , b u t t h e m o n e y t h a t th e y g iv e m e is n o t
e v e n e n o u g h t o p a y fiv e w o r k e r s a n d t h e n I d o n ’ t g e t a n y t h i n g m y s e l f .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I d o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o n o w I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d h o w y o u c o u l d s i g n
and agree sign a contract to provide work without even knowing how
m u c h y o u w o u l d c h a r g e fo r t h e w o r k t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o d o . W h a t if
S A E x p r e s s w a s g o in g t o g iv e y o u a s m a l l a m o u n t o f m o n e y t h a t w o u l d
n o t e n a b l e y o u to p a y w o r k e r s a n d y o u w o u l d n o t m a k e p r o f i t y o u r s e l f
s o y o u e n d u p j u s t w o r k i n g a n d y o u g a i n n o th in g . I w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t
t h a t a s a b u s in e s s p e r s o n t h a t w o u l d b e u p p e r m o s t in y o u r m i n d , y o u
10

w o u ld s a y n o I d o n ’ t w a n t t o w o r k n o t h in g , I m u s t m a k e a p r o fi t th a t ’s
w h y I’v e g o t a b u s in e s s , t h a t’s w h y I h a v e a c o m p a n y to r u n a b u s i n e s s ,
I a m h e r e f o r a b u s i n e s s , I m u s t b e a b l e t o p a y m y s ta ff , I m u s t b e a b le
a ft e r I h a v e p a i d m y s t a ff a n d a ll m y e x p e n s e s h a v e m o n e y t o my s e l f.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

O k a y y e s C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t o n e n o w I a m

g e t t in g a li t tl e b i t th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d n o w ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

J a , I ’ m b e tt i n g a l i tt l e b i t l ig h t b e c a u s e n o

o n e w o u ld w o r k fo r fr e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s C h a ir i n t h e b e g in n i n g Mr v a n W y k w h e n

h e w a s s a y in g t h a t I s h o u l d b r in g t h e s e t w o p e o p l e i n to t h e c o m p a n y h e
w a s s a y in g th a t t h is p r o j e c t is g o i n g t o b e b i g a n d b i g i n a s e n s e t h a t i t
c o u l d b e m i ll io n s a n d w h a t e v e r, e v e n t h o u g h h e d i d n ’ t s p e c i fy h o w
m u c h – t o m e h e d i d n ’ t s p e c i fy h o w m u c h b u t if n o w h e s a y s b i g i n a n d
m il li o n s a n d a g a in w h e n I lo o k a t th e n u m b e r o f s t a ff t h a t w il l b e d o i n g

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g a s w e l l a s t h e ta k i n g o f l a n g u a g e I th i n k th e r e w e r e
fi v e o r s e v e n p e r a ir p o r t , s e v e n f o r P il a n e s b e r g , s e v e n f o r t h a t , t h e r e
w a s g o i n g to b e e n o u g h m o n e y f o r .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u th o u g h t t h a t w h a t e v e r h a p p e n s h e w a s t a l k i n g b i g
a m o u n ts .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M i ll io n s , th e r e fo r e y o u w o u ld s t ill h a v e s o m e m o n e y,
a ft e r p a y i n g t h e s ta ff .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

Ye s th e r e w o u l d s t ill b e m o n e y a t l e a s t R a n d

f o r p h o n e a n d fo r f u e l a n d s t u ff , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a n d y o u tr u s t e d t h a t w h a t h e h a d to l d y o u w a s in
t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u s ig n e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s t h a t w a s w h a t w a s in m y m i n d b e c a u s e I
m is t a k e n ly I s i g n e d t h e d o c u m e n ts , n o t m is t a k e n ly y e s I s i g n e d t h e
d o c u m e n ts , it w a s l a te a n d h e w a s s a y in g t h a t th e d o c u m e n t i s g o i n g t o
c o m e b a c k t o m e , I w a s th i n k i n g i f t h e d o c u m e n t is g o i n g to b e c o m e w e
s t a r t th e w o r k a n d a f t e r th a t , a f t e r h e le f t t h e f o l lo w in g w e e k , b e c a u s e I
t h i n k i t w a s o n Th u r s d a y / Fr id a y, t h e f o ll o w in g w e e k n o w it w a s t h e s t a ff
t o b e p u t i n t o , t o b e a r r a n g e d t h e u n i f o r m s a n d a ll t h is , e v e r y t h i n g w a s

20

ju s t m o v i n g v e r y fa s t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Tl a ts a n a w e t h e n n e e d to g o to w h e n y o u r

w o r k c o m m e n c e d a t t h e a i r p o r ts , w h e n w a s th a t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

The work comm enced on the 1st May 2015.
A n d w a s i n r e s p e c t o f b o t h a ir p o r ts ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:

No.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h ic h a ir p o r t w a s t h a t?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

P i la n e s b e r g s t a r t e d o n t h e 1 s t o f M a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h e n d i d M a fi k e n g s ta r t ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

I t s t a r t e d 1 s t S e p t e m b e r.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O f th e s a m e y e a r, o f 2 0 1 5 ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

2 0 1 5 y e s m a ’a m , y e s C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d n o w c a n I j u s t u n d e r s t a n d i n t h a t w h o le

p e r i o d u p u n ti l e a r ly 2 0 1 6 y o u n e v e r h a d a c o p y o f t h e c o n tr a c t ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o I n e v e r h a d a c o p y o f t h e c o n tr a c t C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d id y o u f ir s t a s k fo r o n e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I’ v e a l w a y s b e e n a s k in g f o r a c o p y o f th e

c o n tr a c t, b u t t h e r e w i ll a l w a y s b e e x c u s e s . I’v e a l w a y s w a n t e d it , b u t
...
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s t a r te d o n t h e d a t e s th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d y o u a lr e a d y s i g n e d t h e c o n tr a c t o r h a d y o u

a lr e a d y s i g n e d t h is b a t c h o f d o c u m e n ts th a t Mr v a n W y k g a v e y o u ?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o ju s t f o r t h e c h r o n o lo g y I h a v e i t th a t y o u

s ig n e d o n th e 1 5 t h o f A p r il , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s ta r t e d a t P il a n e s b e r g o n th e 1 s t o f M a y,

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u s t a r t e d a t M a f e k in g o n t h e 1 s t o f

S e p te m b e r.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e f o r e c o m m e n c in g b o t h o f th o s e b i ts o f w o r k

h a d y o u a s k e d f o r t h e c o n tr a c t ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

I’v e a l w a y s b e e n a s k i n g f o r t h e c o n tr a c t

C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I s t h e r e a r e c o r d o f t h a t in w r i ti n g ?

MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o I w o u l d p ic k u p th e c a ll , w h e n a r e y o u

c o m i n g , o r w h e n a r e w e r e c e iv i n g t h e c o n tr a c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y I w o u l d t h e n li k e u s t o g o to p a g e 1 5 o f

y o u r a ffi d a v it , 1 5 , b e c a u s e I w a n t t o n o w s ta r t ta lk in g a b o u t t h e
p a y m e n t s a n d t h e m o n e y, w h a t c a m e i n t o y o u r a c c o u n t a n d w h a t w e n t
o u t o f y o u r a c c o u n t , a n d C h a ir a n d M s T l a t s a n a w h a t I p r o p o s e w e d o is
w e tr a c k i t t h r o u g h y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d t h e n w e w i ll t a k e a l o o k a t th e
d i a g r a m s j u s t s o th a t w e c a n g e t a s e n s e o f h o w i t a ll p l a y s o u t , w i t h
y o u r l e a v e C h a ir w e w il l p r o c e e d o n t h a t b a s i s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , th a t ’s fi n e , I d i d n ’ t m e n ti o n t o y o u b u t I t h i n k
w e w ill t a k e a b r e a k a t s ix .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C e r ta i n ly C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t ’s s t a r t w i t h t h e f ir s t p a y m e n t t h a t

K o r e n e k a r e c e iv e d M s Tl a ts a n a , y o u w il l s e e t h a t a t p a g e 1 5 , a n d i t ’s

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
p a r a g r a p h 4 .2 7 , r i g h t. Yo u r e c o r d t h e r e i n y o u r a ff id a v i t o n 6 M a y 2 0 1 5
a n a m o u n t o f R 8 .5 m i ll io n w a s r e c e iv e d b y t h e f ir s t r e s p o n d e n t , j u s t fo r
r e fe r e n c e p u r p o s e s C h a ir t h a t is K o r e n e k a i n t h e l i ti g a ti o n , f r o m S A
Express:
“ A s s e t o u t a b o v e is a p a r t p a y m e n t in r e s p e c t o f g r o u n d
h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s to b e e x e c u te d b y t h e fi r s t r e s p o n d e n t w h ic h
is K o r e n e k a . ”
T h a t p a r t p a y m e n t M s T la t s a n a I s u g g e s t to y o u is a p r o d u c t o f w h a t
y o u l a t e r u n d e r s t o o d t o b e t h e a g r e e m e n t, b e c a u s e a s a t t h e 6 t h o f M a y
10

y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a c o n tr a c t y e t d o y o u ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I n e v e r h a d a c o n tr a c t.
B u t w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t R 8 . 5 m i ll io n c a m e

in t o t h e b a n k a c c o u n t o f K o r e n e k a ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y w h o w a s g o i n g t o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )

CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r, b e a r in g i n m i n d t h a t y o u h a d

n o t b e e n a b le , y o u h a d n o t r e a d th e c o n tr a c t w h e n y o u s i g n e d i t .
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

D i d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s to b e a n y m o n e y –

d i d y o u k n o w w h e n p a y m e n t w o u l d b e d o n e t o K o r e n e k a a n d w h a t w o u ld
n e e d t o h a p p e n b e f o r e p a y m e n t w a s d o n e , d id y o u k n o w a n y o f t h o s e
t h i n g s f r o m b e i n g to ld b y M r v a n W y k m a y b e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o C h a i r I d id n ’t k n o w th a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g

t o b e t h is fl o w o f m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u , w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t , o f

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
w h e n y o u w o u l d b e p a id a n d w h a t m a y h a v e n e e d e d t o b e d o n e i n o r d e r
f o r y o u t o b e p a id ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d m y e x p e r ie n c e is t o b e

p a i d a f te r t h e w o r k is d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: After the work had been done?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

And you would put in an invoice that was your

u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u e n q u ir e a b o u t h o w y o u w o u l d p u t i n

t h is in v o ic e s a n d w h a t th e p r o c e s s w o u ld b e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I d i d n ’ t e n q u ir e C h a i r b e c a u s e th e

a c c o u n t a n t w a s a lr e a d y a p p o i n t e d d o i n g a l l t h e s e i n v o ic e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS BABADI TLASANA:

D id y o u c h e c k w i t h h i m t h a t h e w a s i n v o i c i n g ?
I didn’t check with him because they were

t e ll i n g th a t w e w ill h a v e m o n th ly m e e t in g s a n d t h e n w h e n y o u c o m e fo r
m o n th ly m e e t i n g s a l l t h e s e w i ll i n fi l e s a n d th e n I w il l b e a b l e t o s e e
what has happened.
20

CHAIRPERSON: When did the accountant start working?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

1st of May 2015.

MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

H e s ta r t e d w o r k i n g t h e 1 s t o f M a y 2 0 1 5 .

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d w a s h e w o r k i n g f u l l ti m e fo r y o u r c l o s e

c o r p o r a t io n o r w a s h e h a v in g h is o w n o ff ic e s a n d h e w a s t a k i n g c a r e o f

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t h e b u s i n e s s w i t h o u t b e i n g a n e m p lo y e e o f th e c o m p a n y, d o y o u k n o w ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : H e w a s w o r k i n g fr o m h i s o ffi c e i n J o ’ b u r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, s o h e w a s b a s e d i n J o ’ b u r g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: And had you met him by the time of this payment of
R 8 . 5 m il li o n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I m e t h i m b e fo r e , n o t w i t h t h e t i m e o f

R 8 m i ll i o n , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e th e o n e s d o i n g t h e i n v o ic e s , I h a v e n e v e r
d o n e a n y in v o ic e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t h a d y o u m e t h i m , d i d y o u k n o w h i m fa c e t o
face?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h i s t i m e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y, h a d y o u m e t – h o w m a n y ti m e s h a d y o u m e t

him, more or less?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Tw ic e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw ic e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y a n d M s P h ir i h a d a ls o s t a r t e d b e i n g a m e m b e r

o f t h e – b e i n g r e g is t e r e d b y t h i s t i m e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d Mr T h a b e n g h a d h e a ls o b e e n r e g is te r e d

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a m e m b e r o f t h e c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t f l o w i n g fr o m t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n b e fo r e

w e g e t t o th e p a y m e n t s w e r e y o u i n c o n t a c t w i t h Mr P h ir i a n d M r
T h a b e n g t o s e t u p m e e ti n g s a b o u t t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f th e c lo s e
c o r p o r a t io n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

D i d y o u e v e r c o n t a c t th e m a b o u t th a t ?
M r v a n W y k in d i c a t e d th a t i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y

f o r t h e m i t w o u l d b e b e s t i f i t ’s m e a n d M r C a lis il le r a w it h h is
a s s is t a n c e t o c o m e a n d s e e if t h i n g s w e r e g o i n g w e l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t i o n h a v e a n o ff ic e fr o m w h e r e
it o p e r a t e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e w a s t h e o ff ic e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I n t h e N W D C I n d u s tr i a l s it e i n M a f e k i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u w e r e b a s e d w h e r e t h e d o c u m e n t s o f t h e

o ffic e w e r e k e p t?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

Th e d o c u m e n t s o f t h e – m o s t o f t h e

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e c o m p a n y.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

. . . d o c u m e n t s o f t h e o ffi c e w e r e k e p t w i th t h e

A ir p o r t M a n a g e r, w i t h m e i t w a s ju s t s o m e in f o r m a ti o n a n d r e p o r ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b u t I’ m n o w r e fe r r in g to t h e p e r i o d b e fo r e y o u

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
g o t i n to a c o n tr a c t w it h S A E x p r e s s , is t h a t – i s t h e o ffi c e th e p la c e
w h e r e y o u u s e d to k e e p c o m p a n y d o c u m e n ts ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a n d t h e n w h e n y o u h a d t h is c o n tr a c t w it h S A

Express did that change?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It d i d n o t c h a n g e .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

No it did not change.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s T la ts a n a w h e n M r v a n W y k s a i d to y o u

t h a t M s P h ir i a n d M r T h a b e n g d i d n ’ t n e e d to p l a y a r o l e i n th e c l o s e
c o r p o r a t io n a n d it s r u n n i n g d i d y o u r a i s e w i t h h i m t h e n w h y h e s a i d t o
y o u t h a t t h e y w o u l d b e u s e f u l fo r t h e s m o o t h r u n n i n g o f th e b u s i n e s s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d th e n h e la t e r e x p la i n e d C h a ir th a t i t w o u l d
b e i m p r o p e r fo r t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y ’ v e g o t t h e w o r k t h a t t h e y a r e d o in g ,
a n d b y t h e n I d i d n ’ t ju s t ta k e i t i n to c o n s i d e r a t io n b e c a u s e I k n o w t h a t
w h e r e Mr T h a b e n g i s , I m e t w i t h h i m i n h is o ffi c e , a n d M s P h i r i I m e t
h e r a t h e r h o u s e a n d n o w b e c a u s e t h a t w a s t h e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t M r v a n
W y k w a s g iv i n g I j u s t th o u g h t o k a y i t ’s fi n e I w il l d o th e w o r k .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir I s e e w e ’r e a t s ix o ’ c l o c k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , l e t ’s t a k e t e n m in u t e s , i s te n m i n u t e s fi n e ? W e
w i ll t a k e a t e n m i n u te s b r e a k , M s Tl a ts a n a i f it s fi n e w it h y o u w e w o u ld
lik e to p r o c e e d a t l e a s t u n t il , m a y b e u n t il s e v e n , is th a t f i n e w i t h y o u ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

I h a v e a s k e d fo r a li f t , I d o n ’ t k n o w.

O h is t h a t s o , m a y b e d u r i n g th e te a b r e a k y o u c a n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
t a lk t o w h o e v e r a n d l e t ’s s e e w h e t h e r t h a t w o u ld b e f in e .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l ta k e a t e n m in u t e a d jo u r n m e n t . W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms T l a ts a n , i s 7 o ’ c l o c k f in e w i th y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is fi n e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

M s H o f m e y r, w e s p o k e a b o u t w o r k i n g

in t o t h e e v e n in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I d i d h a v e i n mi n d t h a t I c o u l d g o u p t o 1 9 h 0 0 b u t
I d i d n ’ t e x c l u d e th e p o s s i b i li ty o f g o in g b e y o n d t h a t if n e e d b e .

If it

w a s n e c e s s a r y b u t I t h i n k t h a t p r o b a b l y w e s h o u ld s t o p a t 1 9 h 0 0 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I t h i n k th a t w o u ld b e a p p r o p r i a t e . I a l s o
k n o w t h a t a n u m b e r o f t h e p e r s o n s w h o a r e a t te n d i n g fo r th e t o w a tc h
20

t h e e v i d e n c e p a r ti c u l a r l y l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s a l s o o f Ms P h a t u d i w h o
w a s i m p li c a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Many of them have indicated to me over the

b r e a k t h a t th e y a c t u a ll y h a v e t o tr a v e l b a c k t o M a f ik e n g to n ig h t . S o I
t h i n k i n th a t c o n t e x t 7 o ’ c l o c k is p r o b a b l y t h e o u t e r l i m it fo r m a n y o f

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
them.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o , t h a t ’s fi n e e v e n t h o u g h I d o n ’t g u a r a n te e

t h a t i n th e f u t u r e w e w o n ’ t g o b e y o n d 1 9 h 0 0 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e ’s n o - n o w e c e r t a i n l y w o u l d n ’ t h o l d y o u
t o i t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t f o r to d a y w e f o r t h i s e v e n i n g w e ’l l s t o p a t 1 9 h 0 0 .
Okay alright.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I k n o w t h a t w e p r o b a b ly h a v e n ’t m a d e a s m u c h

p r o g r e s s a s y o u w e r e h o p in g f o r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d s o I g u e s s w e w il l t a lk j u s t b e f o r e 1 9 h 0 0 a b o u t

w h a t th e w a y f o r w a r d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. M s T la ts a n a , w e w e r e p a g e
1 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d w e r e s t a r ti n g t o d e a l w i t h p a y m e n ts a n d m o n e y
a n d w h a t c a m e in a n d w h a t w e n t o u t . A n d w e w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 2 7
w h e r e y o u r e c o r d i n t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t o n t h e 6 t h o f M a y a n a m o u n t 8 . 5
20

m il li o n c a m e i n to t h e K o r e n e k a b a n k a c c o u n t, c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t a s k a t t h is p o in t , w h o h a d c o n tr o l o f
t h e K o r e n e k a b a n k a c c o u n t ? W h o w a s a b le to a u t h o r i s e p a y m e n t s o u t
o f t h e a c c o u n t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t w a s Mr D a v id K a l is i li r a , C h a ir.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w h i m a lo n e o r h i m w i t h y o u o r w h a t w a s t h e
a r r a n g e m e n t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

H e w a s d o in g t h e i n v o ic e s C h a ir a n d h e w a s

p a y i n g t h e s a l a r ie s . A n d I w a s c h e c k in g o n t h e s t a t e m e n t th r o u g h t h e
p h o n e fo r e v e r y tr a n s a c ti o n . I f t h e r e w i ll b e s o m e th i n g t h e a g r e e m e n t
w a s i f t h e r e w o u l d b e s o m e th i n g b e y o n d t h a t a t le a s t i f I w o u l d b e to l d
t h a t th is is g o in g to h a p p e n a t l e a s t i f I c o u l d h a v e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t
t h a t a n d a n in v o ic e t h a t’s h o w w e w e r e w o r k in g , y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a , j u s t t o b e a l i tt l e b i t m o r e p r e c is e
10

maybe on my part.

W h a t I’ m w a n ti n g t o u n d e r s t a n d i s w h o c o u l d

tr a n s a c t f r o m t h e F N B a c c o u n t t h a t y o u o p e n e d fo r t h e c o m p a n y ? W h o
c o u l d p u t i n th e p a s s w o r d t o m a k e t h e p a y m e n t g o o u t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t ’s M r D a v i d K a l i s il ir a , C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d c o u l d h e d o t h a t w i t h o u t y o u a ls o b e i n g

in v o lv e d in a u t h o r is i n g t h e p a y m e n t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : L ik e I s a y C h a ir, t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s f o r e v e r y
tr a n s a c ti o n i f t h e y l e t m e k n o w I w o u l d k n o w th a t R 2 0 0 h a s to g o f o r
p a y m e n t f o r th is a n d fo r p a y m e n t fo r t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e i f w e c a n s ta r t a l it t le e a r li e r. F o r p u r p o s e s o f
20

o p e n i n g t h is FN B a c c o u n t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to an FNB branch to open the account?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON: Alone or with somebody?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : W i t h th e tw o p a r t n e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms P h ir i a n d .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Mr T h a b e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u s ig n e d s o m e d o c u m e n ts f o r p u r p o s e o f

opening the account at FNB?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y a ls o s ig n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u - w e r e y o u a ll th r e e s i g n a t u r e s t o t h e a c c o u n t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i ti o n - o r l e t m e a s k t h i s ,

was there a cheque account?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, i t w a s a c h e q u e a c c o u n t s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o r d e r t o m a k e o u t a c h e q u e , w a s o n e s ig n a tu r e o f
a n y o n e o f th e t h r e e o f y o u s u ff ic ie n t o r d i d it h a v e to b e tw o p e o p l e o r
t h r e e p e o p l e to s i g n it ?
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , i t h a d - w e h a v e to b e t w o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y tw o o f y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , a n y tw o o f u s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s th e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e h a d a lw a y s

t o b e t h e r e t h e n i t c o u l d e it h e r b e o n e o f t h e o th e r t w o b u t y o u r s h a d t o
be there, was that not the case?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I n th e d o c u m e n ts , y e s C h a i r i t w a s e i t h e r o n e
o f u s b u t n o w t h e p a y m e n ts w e w e r e n o t u s in g t h e c h e q u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t w a s a n E F T.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , th a t’ fi n e I’ ll c o m e th e r e . S o b u t i n te r ms o f w h a t
w a s s i g n e d , y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t if t h e t w o o f t h e m s i g n e d
a l o n e a n d y o u a r e n o t t h e r e , th e r e c h e q u e s w o u ld b e g o o d e n o u g h ? I t
could be paid?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a n d i f y o u s ig n e d w i t h a n y o n e o f t h e t w o o f th e m
t h a t c h e q u e s w o u ld b e f in e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e u s i n g E F T t o tr a n s a c t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r c a n ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e b u t

y o u c a n e x p l a i n w h a t y o u w a n t t o e x p la i n .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir, t h e a c c o u n t is a c h e q u e a c c o u n t

b u t w e d id n ’ t h a v e t h e c h e q u e b o o k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Ye s n o y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e a c h e q u e b o o k b u t
20

it w a s a c h e q u e a c c o u n t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f t r a n s a c ti n g o n t h e a c c o u n t , t w o

s ig n a tu r e s w e r e n e c e s s a r y i f i t w a s s o m e th in g to b e s i g n e d .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o , th e r e w a s n e v e r a n y t h i n g t o b e s ig n e d

C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n e v e r a n y th i n g t o b e s i g n e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o e v e r y th i n g w a s E F T ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n t h a t c a s e y o u j u s t n e e d e d t o k n o w th e p i n

n u m b e r a n d t h e n y o u c o u ld tr a n s a c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A n d d i d y o u g i v e t h o s e p i n d e t a ils t o Mr

K a lis il ir a ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t to g o b a c k t o m y e a r li e r q u e s t i o n , d i d
t h a t m e a n t h a t h e c o u ld m a k e a n E F T p a y m e n t? I’ m t a l k i n g n o w n o t i n
t e r m s o f w h a t a g r e e m e n t y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d w i th h i m b u t t h e
m e c h a n ic s o f i t . C o u l d h e g o o n to t h e b a n k a c c o u n t o f K o r e n e k a ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d c o u l d h e u s in g th e p i n o r t h e p a s s w o r d

h i m s e l f m a k e p a y m e n t s o u t o f th e a c c o u n t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w a s h e t h e o n ly o t h e r p e r s o n y o u g a v e

t h o s e b a n k d e ta il s t o ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, i t w a s o n ly h i m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o e s t h a t a ls o m e a n i t w a s n ’ t g iv e n to M s P h ir i
o r Mr T h a b e n g ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n e v e r. N o , t h e y w e r e

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
n e v e r i n t h e o ff ic e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o j u s t t o b e c l e a r, y o u c o u ld g o o n t o t h e

a c c o u n t , c o u l d y o u a n d m a k e p a y m e n ts ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o , I c o u l d n ’ t g o in t o t h e a c c o u n t a n d m a k e

payments. No.
CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y n o t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t w a s th e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f M r K a l is il ir a .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o e v e n i f y o u w a n te d t o , y o u c o u l d n o t .

Yo u w e r e

n o t a l lo w e d ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e a c c o r d in g t o Mr v a n W y k

b e c a u s e h e w a s in t h a t d a y, a l l t h e s e m o n i e s t h a t a r e c o m in g in is f o r
t h e p u r p o s e o f s a l a r ie s o t h e r w is e th e r e s t i s g o i n g to b e fo r t h e
p u r c h a s e o f t h e f ir e t r u c k a n d th e c a m e r a s i n th e a ir p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u k e e p y o u r A B S A b a n k a c c o u n t o f th e c lo s e

c o r p o r a t io n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th is w a s a n a d d i t io n a l a c c o u n t , y o u d i d n ’ t c lo s e

the ABSA account?
20

M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

N o , I d id n ’ t c l o s e i t b e c a u s e w h e n w e w e r e

o p e n i n g - w e w e r e t h e r e to a d j u s t t o b r in g m e m b e r s i t h a s s o m e f u n d s in
it a n d I h a v e n o t c l o s e d it .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s y o u u n d e r s to o d

t h e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t y o u e n t e r e d i n to t o e n t a i l t h a t y o u w e r e n o t
a l lo w e d t o o r i n t o t h e a c c o u n t a n d m a k e a n y p a y m e n ts ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d j u s t t o p r o b e o n c e m o r e th e d i ff e r e n c e

b e t w e e n w h a t y o u r a g r e e m e n t w a s a n d w h a t y o u c o u l d a c tu a lly d o
in d e p e n d e n t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t , I j u s t w a n t t o g e t c l a r i ty o n th a t .

I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r te s ti m o n y t o b e th e a g r e e m e n t w a s M r K a l is il ir i a w o u l d
d o a l l o f t h e p a y m e n ts , c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But as a matter of fact could you yourself go

o n t o th e a c c o u n t o n t h e in t e r n e t a n d m a k e a n E F T p a y m e n t ?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y i t ’s a l l w i th M r K a l is i li r i a .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y i t ’s w i t h Mr K a li s il ir ia .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , w e u n d e r s ta n d t h a t.

M s H o f m e y r s a id s h e

understands what the arrangement was.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

B u t w h a t s h e ’s a s k in g is , s u p p o s e t h a t y o u

d e c i d e d t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t l e t m e c h e c k w h e t h e r t h e r e i s s ti ll m o n e y in
20

t h is a c c o u n t . C o u l d o r y o u s a y y o u d e c id e d t h is i s m y c o m p a n y, I w a n t
t o p a y m y w o r k e r s m y s e lf , I w a n t t o ta k e s o m e m o n e y a n d p a y s my
w o r k e r s m y s e l f o r if y o u d e c i d e d t o d o w h a t e v e r e v e n t h o u g h t h e m o n e y
m i g h t h a v e b e e n f o r t h e p a y m e n t o f w o r k e r s . I f y o u d e c i d e d lo o k I n e e d
s o m e m o n e y, t h e r e is s ti ll tw o w e e k s b e f o r e I h a v e t o p a y th e w o r k e r s .
L e t m e t a k e t h i s m o n e y a n d u s e i t f o r t h e b u s i n e s s a n d th e n I w il l g e t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
another money and put it back.

I s th e r e a n y t h in g t h a t w o u l d h a v e

p r e v e n t e d y o u fr o m a c t u a lly d o i n g t h a t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir, n o t h i n g w o u l d h a v e p r e v e n t e d m e fr o m
doing that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u k n e w a ll t h e in f o r m a t io n y o u n e e d e d t o

k n o w t o d o th a t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u k n e w e x a c tl y w h a t t o d o ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u c o n s id e r e d y o u r s e l f- y o u j u s t r e s p e c t e d t h e

arrangement that was made?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ms H o f m e y r, d o e s th a t h e lp ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir, I’ m i n d e b te d t o y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f w e g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 5 p a r a g r a p h 4 .2 7 s o
y o u ’v e s t a r t e d w o r k - s o r r y ju s t t o o r i e n ta t e o u r s e lv e s c h r o n o lo g ic a ll y.
Work commences on the 1st of May 2015, correct?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o n t h e 6 t h o f M a y a n a m o u n t o f 8 . 5 m il li o n
c o m e s i n t o th e a c c o u n t o f K o r e n e k a , c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e r e y o u n o ti fi e d o f t h a t a m o u n t c o m i n g i n t o

the account?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A t f ir s t I w a s n o t n o t i fi e d , C h a ir.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o h o w d id y o u e s t a b li s h t h a t t h a t h a d c o m e

in t o t h e a c c o u n t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I r e a li s e d i n my p h o n e w h e n i t w a s r i n g i n g t h a t
t h e r e ’s m o n e y th a t j u s t e n t e r e d in t o th e a c c o u n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d i d r e c e iv e a n o ti f ic a ti o n w h e n i t c o m e s
in ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s o n y o u r p h o n e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i s i t a n S M S o r s o m e s u c h n o t if ic a ti o n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , t h e n o ti fi c a t i o n a n d S M S . Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Okay because then if we go to the next

p a r a g r a p h 4 .2 8 y o u t h e r e s t a r t to t a l k a b o u t t h e fi r s t a m o u n ts th a t g o
o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t . A s I h a v e t h e r e y o u s a y, o n 7 M a y I w a s n o ti fi e d o f
a p a y m e n t o f 2 m i l li o n r a n d b y w a y o f S M S n o t i fi c a t io n v i a m y p h o n e
fr o m F N B t h a t i t h a d b e e n tr a n s f e r r e d f r o m a n d I’ m r e a d i n g i n f o r fir s t
r e s p o n d i n K o r e n e k a ’s a c c o u n t , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u k n o w w h a t th a t p a y m e n t w a s f o r ?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

The response that I was told by Mr van Wyk

t h a t t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e m o n e y t h a t is g o i n g t o g o o u t t h a t a r e g o i n g t o
d o t h e r e p a ir s i n t h e a ir p o r t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t r e p a ir s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d i d n ’ t k n o w w h a t w a s b r o k e n i n t h e a ir p o r ts ,
C h a ir.

B u t h e s a i d t h e y t h e y a r e g o i n g t o d o t h e a ir p o r ts b e c a u s e

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t h e y ’v e l o n g b e e n s t a n d in g w i t h o u t b e in g u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a s b e e n s t a n d i n g w i t h o u t b e in g u s e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e b u i ld in g s , t h e a ir p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , a n d n o w t h e r e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e s o m e
r e p a ir s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u u n d e r s ta n d p a r t o f t h e j o b t h a t h a d b e e n

g iv e n o r y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t i o n h a d b e e n g iv e n a s i n c l u d in g d o i n g
r e p a ir s t o t h e b u i l d i n g ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:
c o n tr a c to r.

M y k n o w l e d g e is a c o n tr a c t o r, b u il d i n g

R e p a i r w o u l d in m y k n o w l e d g e w o u l d m e a n i f th e w a l l is

b r o k e n , y o u ’l l fi x . I f t h e li g h t is n o t w o r k i n g , y o u w il l f ix . I f th e d o o r is
n o t w o r k i n g , y o u w i ll fi x .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u ta lk in g 2 m i l li o n h e r e .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d i d y o u - w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t th e c o n t r a c t
o r t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n h a d w i th S A E x p r e s s
in c l u d e d t h a t y o u m u s t r e p a ir t h e w a ll s i n t h e b u i ld in g ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :
20

N o C h a ir, I d id n ’ t k n o w e v e n t h o u g h M r

B a k h a k i( ? ) to ld m e t h a t y e s , i t ’s p a r t o f t h e w o r k t h a t I w i ll b e d o in g ,
t h e a ir p o r t m a n a g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t i s s o m e b o d y o t h e r t h a n M r v a n W y k w h o to ld y o u
that?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f t h e a ir p o r t m a n a g e r ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Mr B a k h a k i .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e ’s th e o n e w h o t o l d y o u t h a t p a r t o f y o u r

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s is t o r e p a ir t h e b u i ld in g .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h i s o n th e o c c a s io n o r a r o u n d t h e ti m e t h a t

t h e r e w a s t h is m o n e y t h a t w e n t o u t o f y o u r c o m p a n i e s a c c o u n t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
10

Ye s C h a ir, b e c a u s e I w o u l d a s k a n d t h e n I’ ll

b e t o l d r e l a x y o u r m in d w e a r e r e p a i r i n g w e a r e fi x i n g t h e a ir p o r ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d i d y o u e v e r a s k t o s e e w h e r e th e r e p a ir s w a s

s u p p o s e d to b e d o n e o n t h e w a l ls o f t h e a i r p o r t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I w o u l d n ’ t, b y th e n C h a ir I d i d n ’ t e v e n g o t o

t h e a ir p o r t s to g o a n d s e e t h o s e r e p a ir s b e c a u s e M r Br i a n w o u l d t e l l m e
t h a t B a b a d i i f e v e r y th i n g . . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s M r v a n W y k .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t ’s M r v a n W y k .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e t r a n s c r i p t d o e s n ’ t

r e fl e c t t h a t i t ’s s o m e b o d y e ls e . M r B r i a n i s s o m e b o d y e ls e , i t ’s Mr v a n
20

Wyk.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

E v e r y t h i n g is g o i n g w e l l, p e o p l e a r e t h e r e ,

p e o p l e a r e w o r k i n g , p e o p l e a r e d o i n g t h e w o r k . J u s t r e l a x e v e r y t h i n g is
g o i n g a c c o r d i n g l y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

So you would not go to inspect the damage on the

w a ll s o f t h e a ir p o r t b u il d i n g t h a t w e r e t o b e r e p a ir e d o r th e r o o f o r
w h a t e v e r w a s d a m a g e d th a t n e e d e d to b e r e p a ir e d ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o C h a ir, b e c a u s e I w o u l d w a n t t o d o t h e -

r e m e m b e r I w o u l d w a n t t o d o th e w o r k n o w h e w o u ld s a y, n o n o y o u a r e
a b i g m a n n o w. Yo u n g p e o p l e , s m a ll p e o p l e a r e t h e o n e s w h o h a v e t o
d o t h i s c o n s tr u c t io n w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s w h a t M r v a n W y k s a i d t o y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S a i d y o u d o n ’t n e e d to b o th e r a b o u t t h i s o t h e r t h i n g s
o th e r p e o p l e w o r k i n g f o r y o u w o u l d n e e d w o u l d t a k e c a r e o f th e m ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And how many workers did Koreneka employee as at
t h is t i m e a r o u n d th e 6 7 8 t h M a y, h o w m a n y w o r k e r s w e r e e m p l o y e d b y
Koreneka?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I’ m n o t q u i t e s u r e o f t h e n u m b e r b u t I t h i n k i f
y o u c a n l o o k i n t o th e b a n k s ta t e m e n ts w e c a n s e e h o w m a n y p e o p l e
were paid.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

J a , b u t g iv e m e a n e s t i m a te .

About 10, about 20,

about 100?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No, less maybe 20 25 people.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe 20 25.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o w h a t a i r p o r t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , w it h r e g a r d t o Pi l a n e s b e r g a ir p o r t .

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
C H A I R P E R S O N : P il a n e s b e r g , j a .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a n d th e y w e r e a ll p e o p l e w h o w e r e w o r k in g o n
to process the passenger were checking in and so on?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o , th e r e w a s t h a t w e r e d o i n g th e g r o u n d -

h a n d l in g , t h e y w e r e a b o u t s e v e n . A n d t h e n th e o t h e r n u m b e r is o f th e
c le a n e r s a n d th e g a r d e n e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A n d w e r e y o u s u r p r is e d t h a t s u c h a b ig

a c c o u n t h a d g o n e i n to y o u r a c c o u n t 8 m il li o n r a n d o n th e 6 t h - 8 . 5
m il li o n r a n d o n t h e 6 t h o f M a y i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u h a d n o t e v e n
fi n i s h e d a m o n t h d o i n g t h is w o r k . Yo u r c o m p a n y h a d n o t e v e n f in is h e d
a m o n t h d o in g th is w o r k ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , I a s k e d C h a ir a n d M r v a n W y k e x p l a i n e d
t h a t i s t h e p r e - p a y m e n t o f t h e w o r k th a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Mm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h a t p r e - p a y m e n t w o u l d ta k e

w o u ld c o v e r w h a t p e r io d ? O n e m o n t h , t w o m o n t h s , t h r e e m o n t h s o r d i d
y o u k n o w h o w m u c h th a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o c o v e r ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e p r e - p a y m e n t, th e w h o l e a m o u n t w a s to b e
a l lo c a t e d f o r a p e r io d o f a y e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , s o n o w t h is i s a p o r ti o n o f t h e m o n e y th a t

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
is b e i n g p a id o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s th e a m o u n t t h a t t h e w h o l e a m o u n t th a t y o u
u n d e r s t o o d t o w a s m e a n t t o b e p a i d t o y o u r c o m p a n y a s a t t h is ti m e ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s , a c c o r d i n g t o t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t K o r e n e k a

e n t e r e d i n t o b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s v e r s i o n M r v a n W y k s a i d . T h e f ir s t y e a r
w a s to b e 5 0 5 1 . s o m e t h i n g m ill i o n , t h e s e c o n d y e a r 3 1 3 1 . T h o s e w e r e
t h e a m o u n ts t h a t w e r e t h e r e b u t I d id n ’t h a v e a d o c u m e n t h e n c e Mr
B a k h a k i e n d e d u p g i v i n g m e t h e l a y o u t o f t h e m o n i e s to b e p a i d fo r
during that work.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
2015, ja 2015.

B u t w a s t h a t in f o r m a ti o n th a t y o u k n e w a s a t M a y
T h e i n f o r m a ti o n o f h o w y o u w o r k y o u r c o m p a n y w a s

y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a ti o n w a s g o in g t o b e p a id ? Is t h a t w h a t y o u k n e w a t
t h a t t i m e o r is i t w h a t y o u k n o w n o w b u t t h a t y o u d id n ’ t k n o w a t th a t
ti m e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , I k n e w a t th a t ti m e b e c a u s e n o w I w a s t o l d
t h a t n o n o , t h i s 8 . 5 t h i s is t h e f ir s t p a r t p a y m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O f t h e w h o l e a m o u n t f o r b o t h a ir p o r t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , b e c a u s e w e s t a r t e d fir s t w i t h P il a n e s b e r g
a n d th e n M a fi k e n g a t a l a t e r s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n a s I h a v e i t a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 5
p a r a g r a p h 4 .2 8 y o u h a v e a 2 m i ll i o n g o o u t n o ti f ic a t i o n .

Page 198 of 224

Did you

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
c o n ta c t M r v a n W y k s h o r t ly a ft e r t h a t ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, b e c a u s e h e i n t h e s p i r i t o f h e l p in g
m e h e w a s s a y i n g th a t d a y, y o u a l l n e e d t o k n o w t h e m o n e y t h a t i s
c o m i n g i n a n d t h e m o n e y t h a t is g o i n g i n s o t h a t I s h o u ld b e in f o r m i n g
h i m w i th a l l t h e s e tr a n s a c t io n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 1 6 y o u r
. . . ( i n te r v e n e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y n e , I ’ m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o ti e u p s o m e t h i n g t h a t r e l a te s t o a q u e s ti o n I

a s k e d m u c h e a r li e r.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t y o u h a d w i t h Mr v a n W y k a n d

t h e a c c o u n ta n t , w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y i t w o u ld h a v e a ll o w e d o r i t
c o u l d h a v e a l l o w e d t h e a c c o u n t a n t to tr a n s f e r a ll t h e m o n e y y o u r c l o s e
c o r p o r a t io n s a c c o u n t o u t a n d tr a n s f e r i t s o m e w h e r e a n d y o u w o u ld o n ly
k n o w a f te r t h e e v e n t , a f te r t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

T h e n n o , t h a t I k n o w b e c a u s e fo r e v e r y

tr a n s a c ti o n I w o u l d fo r e v e r y tr a n s a c ti o n I w o u l d k n o w a n d a n y m o n e y
20

t h a t is a b o v e 5 m i ll io n , I w o u l d k n o w t h e b a n k w o u l d c o n f ir m i f I ’v e g o t
a n id e a a b o u t t h e n I w il l t e ll th e m I d i d n ’ t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b u t i f i t w a s l e s s t h a n 5 m il li o n w o u l d th e p o s i t i o n
b e th a t h e c o u l d t h e a r r a n g e m e n t y o u h a d w i t h h i m a n d w i th Mr v a n
W y k c o u l d h a v e a ll o w e d h i m t o t r a n s f e r a f e w m i ll i o n s n o t m o r e t h a n 5
m il li o n o u t o f y o u r a c c o u n t a n d y o u w o u l d o n ly k n o w a f t e r t h e tr a n s f e r

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
has happened?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
w o u ld k n o w C h a ir.

T h e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s fo r e v e r y tr a n s a c ti o n I

I f th e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a n y tr a n s a c t io n , I w o u l d

k n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t h e h a d to s p e a k to y o u

b e f o r e t a k in g o u t a n y m o n e y tr a n s f e r r i n g a n y m o n e y a n d a m o u n t ?

Or

w a s t h e r e a l i m i t t o s a y i f i t ’s a n a m o u n t t h a t is n o t m o r e t h a n X , t h e n
he didn’t need to talk to you beforehand but if it was going to be above
a c e r ta in a m o u n t , h e n e e d e d t o s p e a k t o y o u f ir s t ?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h e p e r s o n w h o w a s ta lk i n g to m e w it h r e g a r d
t o t h e tr a n s a c t io n s w a s Mr v a n W y k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t e v e n w i t h h i m w a s t h e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t t h e
a c c o u n t a n t c o u l d tr a n s f e r m o n e y o u t w i t h o u t fir s t t a lk i n g t o y o u i f it w a s
n o t a b o v e a c e r ta in a m o u n t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h a t ti m e I h a v e n e v e r e x p e r i e n c e d t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r d i s c u s s io n d i d n o t i n c l u d e t h a t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : E v e r y t r a n s a c t i o n t h a t g o e s o u t, I w o u ld k n o w.
T h e y w o u l d i n fo r m m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

N o , I w a n t y o u to d is t in g u i s h b e t w e e n g e t ti n g

k n o w l e d g e b y w a y o f a n S M S n o t if ic a ti o n fr o m t h e b a n k .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h i s a f t e r t h e t r a n s fe r h a d h a p p e n e d a s I

u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n a n d a p o s i t io n w h e r e h e w o u l d s p e a k t o y o u
fir s t a n d s a y I n e e d to tr a n s fe r s u c h a n d s u c h a n a m o u n t f o r th is
p u r p o s e . I w a n t y o u t o d is t in g u i s h b e t w e e n t h e t w o . Yo u u n d e r s ta n d ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e t w e e n w h e n w a s h e r e q u ir e d t o s p e a k t o y o u fir s t

b e f o r e tr a n s f e r r i n g m o n e y o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t o r d i d h e n o t h a v e t o
s p e a k t o y o u f ir s t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

H e w o u l d i n f o r m h e w o u l d d e fi n i t e l y n e e d t o

in f o r m m e th a t t h i s k i n d o f m o n e y is g o in g o u t b u t t h e m o s t p e r s o n th a t
w a s t a lk i n g w a s M r v a n W y k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t d i d t h e a r r a n g e m e n t m a d e w i th h i m a n d M r

van Wyk.
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , w a s to t a l k t o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In te r m s o f t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t w a s h e a l w a y s r e q u i r e d
t o s p e a k to y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r ir r e s p e c t iv e o r h o w m u c h t h e a m o u n t w a s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t .

B u t i f h e c h o s e , i f h e w e r e t o d e c id e

n o t t o s p e a k t o y o u , t h e r e ’s n o th in g t h a t w o u l d h a v e p r e v e n t e d h i m f r o m
tr a n s fe r r i n g a n y a m o u n t a s l o n g a s i t w a s n o t a b o v e 5 m ill i o n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I’ m i n d e b te d a n d I w o u l d lik e t o j u s t g o
b a c k to p a g e 1 5 b e c a u s e I d o t h i n k t h e r e i n t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t’s c r e a t d
in p a r a g r a p h 4 . 2 8 is p r o b a b l y n o t c o n s i s t e n t M s Tl a ts a n a w i th t h e
e v i d e n c e y o u ’v e g iv e n b e c a u s e if y o u r e a d p a r a g r a p h 4 . 2 8 o n p a g e 1 5
y o u ’ ll s e e i t s a y s th e r e th e fir s t p a y m e n t o f 8 . 5 m i ll io n w a s m a d e o n 6

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M a y 2 0 1 5 . O n 7 M a y 2 0 1 5 , I w a s n o t if i e d o f a p a y m e n t o f 2 m i ll io n b y
w a y o f S M S n o t i fic a ti o n v i a m y p h o n e f r o m F N B th a t h a d b e e n
tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m t h e K o r e n e k a a c c o u n t . W i th r e s p e c t , i f I r e a d t h a t i t ’s
s u g g e s t in g to m e th a t y o u o n ly f i n d o u t a ft e r th e p a y m e n t h a s b e e n
e ffe c te d .

B u t I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e n o w a n d I ’d lik e y o u r

c o m m e n t if I m is u n d e r s t a n d in g i t .

Yo u s a i d n o , y o u ’ d n e e d t o b e

c o n ta c t e d b y M r v a n W y k b e f o r e t h e p a y m e n t a n d c a n I t a k e i t t h e n th a t
y o u w e r e c o n t a c t e d b e fo r e t h is 2 m il li o n r a n d w e n t o u t o n t h e 7 t h o f M a y
a n d y o u w e r e to ld b y h i m w h a t i t w a s f o r ?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : M a y b e I m is u n d e r s t o o d t h e E n g l is h , C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u r e .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : My a p o l o g ie s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : My a p o l o g ie s w i th m y li t t le g r a m m a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , th a t ’s fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s fi n e .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : My a p o l o g ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , fe e l fr e e .
MS

20

BABADI

TLASANA:

C h a ir,

the

agreement

was

for

tr a n s a c ti o n I s h o u l d k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e h a n d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : B e fo r e h a n d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h e tr a n s a c ti o n is e ffe c t e d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Fo r e v e r y tr a n s a c ti o n I h a v e t o k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b e fo r e h a n d .

Page 202 of 224

every

21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d n o w a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s ta t e m e n ts y e s , i t’s
c o r r e c t t h is p a y m e n t w a s m a d e a n d t h e n I w a s in f o r m e d a t a l a te r s t a g e
t h a t i t w a s fo r t h e r e p a ir s o f th e a ir p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

So when the transfer happened you had not-

n o b o d y h a d s p o k e n to y o u a b o u t i t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n th e r e w a s a s e c o n d p a y m e n t o n t h e
10

w e ll , a s e r ie s o f f u r t h e r p a y m e n t s o n t h e 7 t h o f M a y. I f y o u g o to p a g e
1 6 a n d y o u p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 1 y o u ’ ll s e e t h e r e t h a t t h e r e w e r e
tr a n s fe r s o f p a y m e n ts a s I h a v e i t t h a t g o o u t o n th a t s a m e d a y, i s th a t
correct?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i f y o u c a n t e ll u s w h a t t h o s e a m o u n ts

were?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A c c o r d i n g t o my s t a te m e n t to t h e s t a t e m e n t o f
K o r e n e k a th a t I w e n t t h r o u g h , I fo u n d o u t t h a t t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s w e r e
p a i d t o P J P a p it e s ( ? ) i n 6 0 0 0 0 0 , 7 0 0 0 0 0 , 3 2 0 0 0 0 , 3 2 0 0 0 0 .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t a s a c o r r e c ti o n t h e r e , I t h in k i ts 6 6 0 0 0 0 ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O h y e s , 6 6 0 0 0 0 . Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d y o u e s ta b l is h t o w h o m i t w a s p a i d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o ti f ic a ti o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S M S n o t if ic a ti o n fr o m t h e b a n k ?

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w a s Mr P a p i te s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d o n ’ t k n o w M r P a p i te s , C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u e n q u ir e fr o m M r v a n W y k ?
M S B A B A D I T LA S A N A :

Ye s , I e n q u ir e f r o m h i m a n d t h e n h e s a i d Mr

P a p i t e s i s t h e o n e w h o ’s g o in g to d o t h e r e p a ir s a t t h e a ir p o r t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t tr y a n d r e m e m b e r n o w b e c a u s e t h is is i m p o r t a n t .
D i d h e s p e a k t o y o u o n th e b a s i s t h a t th is p e r s o n w a s b e i n g p a i d b e f o r e
10

d o i n g th e r e p a ir s ?

I n o t h e r w o r d s , d i d h e s p e a k o n t h e b a s is th a t h e

w a s s t il l g o i n g t o d o t h e r e p a ir s , n o t t h a t h e h a d d o n e t h e m ? I f y o u a r e
able to remember what he said.
MS BABADI TLASANA: Because I - I have – because I was not and I
h a v e n o t b e e n a t P i la n e s b e r g A ir p o r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ,
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d t h e n h e s a i d th is M r P e te r s th e r e i s g o in g
t o b e m o n e y t h a t is g o in g t o b e p a i d t o M r P e t e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

W h o is d o i n g t h e r e p a i r s a t P il a n e s b e r g

A ir p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o h e – h e w a s l ik e h e w a s a lr e a d y d o i n g
them or so?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s . H e w a s d o i n g h is w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l y o u j u s t s a i d y o u h a d n o t – y o u h a d n o t
b e e n t o P il a n e s b e r g .

I j u s t w a n t to c h e c k .

Yo u m e a n w h e th e r y o u

m e a n y o u h a d n o t b e e n t h e r e to c h e c k r e p a ir s o r w h a te v e r o r y o u m e a n
y o u h a d n o t b e e n t h e r e a t a ll ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o , n o t o c h e c k t h e – th e w o r k t h a t w a s b e i n g
done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . N o th a t is fi n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id y o u e v e r g o a n d c h e c k i f t h e r e p a ir s h a d

been done?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id – d i d y o u g o t o th e a ir p o r t a t a l l?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir – n o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t n o p o i n t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

N o - f o r 2 0 1 5 n o . I h a v e n e v e r b e e n to – t o

P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u d i d n o t f e e l i t n e c e s s a r y to g o a n d

c h e c k th a t w a s b e i n g t o l d t o y o u a b o u t w h a t w a s b e i n g d o n e t h e r e w a s
a c c u r a te ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
20

M r v a n W y k w a s t e ll in g m e t o – to r e l a x a n d

t h e n th e y a r e d o i n g th e w o r k a n d b e c a u s e o f th is m y tr u s t I b e li e v e d
h i m t h a t t h e r e c o u ld n o t b e – t h e r e c o u l d b e n o c h e a t in g o r a n y
m is in t e r p r e ta t io n ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y – w h y d i d y o u h a v e to - w h y d i d y o u h a v e t o

lis t e n t o h i m s o m u c h ?

I t is y o u r c o m p a n y. A l o t o f m o n e y w e n t i n t o

y o u r a c c o u n t – y o u r c o m p a n y ’s a c c o u n t – y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a t i o n ’s

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a c c o u n t . O n e d a y – s a m e d a y – a lo t o f m o n e y i s ta k e n o u t a n d i t is –
it is g o i n g t o s o m e b o d y th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w.

Yo u h a v e b e e n t o l d

a b o u t r e p a ir s .
Yo u h a v e n o t s e e n t h e s e r e p a ir s . Yo u h a v e n o t s e e n w h a t i s
d a m a g e d a n d s o m e b o d y is g o in g to b e p a i d a l o t o f m o n e y a n d fr o m
w h a t y o u a r e t o ld t h a t p e r s o n h a s n o t e v e n fi n i s h e d t h e r e p a ir s . M a y b e
h e is s ti ll b u s y w i th t h e m b u t h e h a s a l r e a d y b e e n p a i d a lo t o f m o n e y.
A ll o f t h i s – d id n o t a l l o f t h is s u g g e s t t o y o u n o , n o , n o . L e t m e g o a n d
s e e e x a c t ly w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g .
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir i n 2 0 1 5 w h e n a ll t h is t h i n g s w e r e – w e r e
g o i n g o n li k e y o u s e e in g h e r e t h e tr a n s a c t io n w a s m a d e o n th e 6 t h a n d
t h e n a g a i n t h e o th e r o n e o n t h e 7 t h . W h e n a ll t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e g o i n g
o n C h a ir i t w a s v e r y f a s t a n d – a n d in m y – i n m y m in d C h a ir w h e r e I
w a s s i t ti n g w a s – y o u k n o w – I c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e a ir p o r ts w e r e
b e i n g t h e r e f o r a v e r y l o n g ti m e a n d y e s m a y b e th e y d o i n g t h e s e jo b s
q u ic k , q u i c k s o t h a t b e c a u s e t h e fl ig h ts a r e a lr e a d y o n .

They have

a lr e a d y s ta r t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

But why do you not want to go and see?

Yo u r

c o m p a n y – y o u a r e t h e p e r s o n w h o c a m e u p w i t h th e id e a t h a t N o r t h
20

W e s t m u s t h a v e a e r o p la n e s c o m i n g i n . T h e r e m u s t b e fl i g h ts t o N o r t h
W e s t . N o w fl i g h t s h a v e s ta r t e d . Yo u h a v e d o n e s o m e t h in g q u i t e b i g f o r
t h e p r o v i n c e , t h e P r e m ie r s , t h e M E C s , b u s in e s s p e o p l e a r e n o w a b le t o
fl y o u t o f P il a n e s b e r g , M a fik e n g A ir p o r t c o m e b a c k .
Yo u h a v e m a d e s u c h a b i g i m p a c t . N o w y o u d o n o t e v e n w a n t
t o g o a n d s e e w h e r e th is w o r k i s b e in g d o n e a n d y o u g e t a l o t o f

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
m o n e y. Yo u o n l y h a v e a b o u t 2 0 – d i d y o u s a y a b o u t 2 0 e m p l o y e e s ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u o n ly h a v e a b o u t 2 0 e m p lo y e e s .

Yo u h a v e n o t

e v e n f in is h e d w o r k i n g f o r a m o n th . S u d d e n ly t h e r e i s R 8 m i lli o n c o m i n g
in t o y o u r a c c o u n t .

Yo u h a v e n o t p r e p a r e d a n y i n v o ic e f o r th is m o n e y

a n d s a m e d a y R 2 m i lli o n is t a k e n o u t.

I t i s ta k e n o u t a n d p a i d to

s o m e b o d y t h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w.
Yo u a s k a n d y o u a r e t o l d t h e p e r s o n is d o i n g r e p a i r s . Yo u d o
n o t w a n t t o g o a n d c h e c k th e s e r e p a ir s .
10

W h a t is w r o n g w it h t h is

b u il d in g t h a t r e q u ir e s s o m u c h m o n e y th a t is p a i d o u t s o q u ic k ly ?

Is

t h a t n o t s tr a n g e ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

C h a ir M r v a n W y k w a s t e l li n g m e t h a t B a b a d i

you need to sit back and relax.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is y o u r c o m p a n y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr v a n W y k is n o t e v e n p a r t o f th e c o m p a n y.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

T h e o th e r r e a s o n t h a t h e w a s g i v i n g w a s b y

t h e w a y B a b a d i y o u s h o u l d a l w a y s r e m e m b e r i f y o u a r e b u s y m o v in g
m a k i n g r o u n d s a t t h e a ir p o r t s y o u s h o u ld r e m e m b e r th a t t h is w o r k
20

in it i a l ly i t w a s – t h e y w a n t e d – t h e r e w e r e o t h e r b i g c o m p a n i e s t h a t
w e r e c o n te s ti n g w it h y o u .
Yo u ju s t g o t th is b e c a u s e o f – y o u a r e a w o m a n b e c a u s e b y
then women were considered to do the work and you are – just sit back
a n d th e n w e w i ll b e d o i n g a ll th is w o r k f o r y o u .

I was – I was

in q u is i tiv e C h a ir b u t n o w b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y in g t h a t s i t b a c k a n d

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
r e l a x . I w o u l d b e li e v e h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

N o th a t is f in e b u t I – I d o w a n t y o u t o

understand why I ask you these questions …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e t h e C o m m i s s io n i s l o o k i n g to is s u e s o f

c o r r u p ti o n …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r s t a t e m e n t s u g g e s ts t h a t c e r ta in p e o p l e d i d
w r o n g th in g s a n d – a n d y o u d id n o t k n o w o r y o u a n d y o u s u g g e s t y o u
10

m a y h a v e b e e n t a k e n a d v a n t a g e o f , o k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I s h o u ld u n d e r s t a n d w h a t

h a p p e n e d . S o – s o t h a t i s w h y I a s k y o u t h e s e q u e s ti o n s s o t h a t I c a n
understand.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a f o u r d a y s l a t e r a n o th e r R 2 m il li o n
20

– a s I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v it – g o e s o u t . L e t u s g o t o t h a t . I t is
n o w a t p a g e 1 7 a n d i t i s a t th e t o p o f t h a t p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 4 .
Where did that payment go?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s . I t w a s a – a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s ta t e m e n t it
w a s m o v e m e n t a n d f in a n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i n q u ir i e s d id y o u m a k e a b o u t t h a t ?

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M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I m a d e i n q u ir i e s a b o u t m o v e m e n t a n d fi n a n c e
a n d t h e n – y e s – Mr v a n W y k s a id – w h a t d i d h e s a y ?

He just said –

C h a ir I f o r g o t w h a t h e s a i d b y t h e n t o m e . To b e h o n e s t I fo r g e t w h a t
h e s a id a b o u t th is m o v e m e n t a n d f i n a n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It i s – i t is j u s t b y n o w it i s fi v e d a y s s i n c e t h e
8 .5 m il li o n h a s c o m e in t o t h e a c c o u n t a n d a s I h a v e t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s ix
m il li o n h a d n o w l e ft t h e a c c o u n t. D i d th a t c a u s e y o u c o n c e r n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t I g o t w a s

t o fi x t h e a ir p o r ts a n d – a n d a n a i r p o r t i s n o t l ik e a h o u s e – m y o w n
10

h o u s e t h a t I c o u l d s a y I w il l t a k e s o m e s m a ll m o n e y a n d g o a n d r e p a ir
it . A n a ir p o r t is a b i g b u i ld i n g a n d o u t o f t h e h is t o r y t h a t w e k n o w o f
e r s t w h il e B o p h u t h a t s w a n a a n d n o w n e w S o u t h A fr ic a i t m e a n s t h a t
t h e s e b u il d i n g s h a v e b e e n s t a n d in g f o r a v e r y, v e r y, v e r y l o n g t i m e t h a t
it w o u l d q u a n ti f y th a t t h e s e m il li o n s d e fi n i t e ly t h e y w il l b e d o i n g t h e
r e p a ir s .
W i th m y – w i t h m y e x p e r i e n c e o f c o n s tr u c t io n i t – i t w o u l d b e
p o s s i b le y e s t h a t y e s t h e s e h a ll – I c a n r e p a ir t h i s h a ll f o r s e v e n m i l li o n
for example.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

As

at

th is

time

n a m e ly

around

8 May/14 May

t h e r e a b o u t a b o u t h o w lo n g b e fo r e t h e s e d a te s h a d y o u la s t b e e n a t
P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t - P il a n e s b e r g ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r le s s .
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I – I b e g in t o b e i n P i la n e s b e r g C h a ir w h e n

n o w I to o k o v e r th e – t h e b u s in e s s .

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA: When I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u b e g a n t o ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

T h a t i s w h e n I b e g a n t o – t o g o to

P il a n e s b e r g . I t w a s b e g i n n i n g 2 0 1 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, early in 2016?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. W h e n y o u w e r e t h e r e h a d y o u ta k e n th e ti m e

t o l o o k a t th e b u il d i n g ? D i d y o u s e e m u c h n e e d f o r r e p a ir s a n d s o o n ?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA:

I d i d n o t s e e a n y – a n y th i n g – a n y th in g th a t

w a s t o b e r e p a ir e d t h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O r b e in g r e p a ir e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : B e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r a r e a t h a t w a s o ld
a n d th e o ld t h i n g s w e r e b e i n g d u m p e d – d u m p e d t h e r e b e c a u s e I
r e m e m b e r w h e n I w a s h a v in g a n i d e a o f th e s e a ir p o r ts h a v e g o t
c a f e t e r ia s , s h o p s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

W h e r e t h e y w e r e s e ll in g t e a s a n d w h a t . T h e

o n e i n P il a n e s b e r g w a s – w a s s o o ld t h a t it n e e d e d to b e r e f u r b i s h e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : To b e r o o fe d i n s i d e a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : To b e r e p a ir e d t o b e p u t …

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA: In a good …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C o n d i ti o n a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA: It was a disappointment …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA: And the money was gone.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a – s o r r y – c a n I j u s t p i c k u p o n t h a t
b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t o o d t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n i t w a s w h e n p r i o r t o
M a y 2 0 1 5 h a d y o u b e e n a t P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t a n d y o u r a n s w e r w a s
t h a t y o u w e n t in e a r l y 2 0 1 6 .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o – b u t t h a t i s a f t e r.

S o I a m t r y in g t o

u n d e r s t a n d w h e n e a r li e r t h a n M a y 2 0 1 5 w e r e y o u a t P il a n e s b e r g
A ir p o r t ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

I h a v e n e v e r b e e n t o P il a n e s b e r g Ai r p o r t

b e c a u s e Mr v a n W y k w a s s a y in g t h a t e v e r y t h i n g is g o i n g s m o o t h . T h e y
20

a r e d o in g t h e w o r k . T h e y a r e fi x i n g . Yo u a r e a – y o u a r e a C E O o f t h e
c o m p a n y.

J u s t s it b a c k a n d r e la x .

W e w i ll – w e w i ll g i v e y o u t h e

report.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s – h e w a s s a y i n g y o u a r e t h e b ig b o s s n o w.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
D o n o t w o r r y a b o u t th e s e th i n g s .
MS BABADI TLASANA: Well …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e g o t p e o p l e t o d o t h is fo r y o u .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. I w a s W h i t e m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll n o . I k n o w a lo t o f p e o p l e k n o w is i Z u l u . D o y o u
k n o w w h a t I a m s a y in g ? Yo u d o u n d e r s t a n d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t I s a i d ? W h a t I s a id ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MS BABADI TLASANA: (isiZulu).
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m – M s H o f m e y r m a y b e I c a n j u s t m e n ti o n

s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h is t h i n g o f ( is i Z u l u ) . Yo u k n o w – t h e r e - t h e r e w a s a
c a s e i n t h e ( i n d is t in c t) C o u r t. I t h i n k i t i s r e p o r t e d n o w a n d a c o m p a n y
– s o m e b o d y in th e c o m p a n y c o m p la in e d o r I th in k w o r k e r s w e r e s i n g i n g
a s o n g w h ic h i n v o l v e d s a y in g ( i s i Z u l u ) …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o th e y w e r e d is m is s e d p a r t ly I t h in k f o r t h a t a n d
s o b u t b e c a u s e t h e c o m p a n y t h o u g h t t h a t w a s r a c is t – y o u k n o w – t o
20

c a l l s o m e b o d y ( is i Z u l u ) . S o w h e n t h e r e w a s a r g u m e n t s o th e a r g u m e n t
fr o m th e u n i o n s i d e w a s n o i t is n o t .

S o I p u t a q u e s t io n – I m a d e a

r e m a r k t h a t I k n o w th a t a m o n g B la c k p e o p l e i t is – y o u w i ll e a s i ly fi n d
s o m e b o d y s a y i n g t h i s o n e is ( is i Zu l u ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h m e a n s t h is i s m y e m p l o y e r …

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n th e te r m i s u s e d i n th a t c o n t e x t – y o u k n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: It does not – and they can say it in respect of a Black
…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E m p lo y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a y ( is i Z u l u ) i t is m y ( is i Z u l u ) . I t is m y W h i te p e r s o n .
S o – s o t h a t is w h y I a m n o w s a y i n g …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: When she – when she says I can understand …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t s h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t . Ye s , o k a y th a n k y o u .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o ju s t t o b e c l e a r y o u – y o u h a d
n o t b e e n t o Pi l a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t b e f o r e M a y 2 0 1 5 . S o y o u d i d n o t h a v e
fir s t- h a n d k n o w le d g e t h a t t h e b u i l d i n g s w e r e i n a s t a t e o f d is r e p a ir. I s
that correct?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

S o a t 11 M a y - w e w e r e a t th e t o p o f p a g e 1 7

a n d w e w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 4 - y o u w i ll r e c a ll I s a i d th a t w a s fi v e
d a y s a f t e r t h e fir s t a m o u n t c a m e in t o t h e a c c o u n t . Yo u h a v e n o w b e e n
d e p le t e d b y a n o t h e r t w o m il li o n w h ic h t o ta ls s ix m il li o n o u t o f th e
account.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o d o w n t o p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 6 o n t h a t p a g e

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y o u r e f e r e n c e a fu r th e r a m o u n t th a t g o e s o u t. W h a t w a s th a t a m o u n t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t is 5 0 0 0 0 0 C h a i r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o d o e s it g o to ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t w e n t E ls ( in d is t in c t ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t e x p l a n a ti o n w e r e y o u g iv e n fo r t h a t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Mr v a n W y k s a y s it is a c o n s u l t i n g f e e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A c o n s u l t in g f e e . J u s t i n r e l a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON:

In r e s p e c t o f w h a t?

C o n s u l ti n g w h o fo r w h a t ?

Did

you ask about that?
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s I d i d a s k a n d th e n h e s a i d th a t o n e is f o r
c o n s u l t in g – c o n s u l t in g f e e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t a s k fo r m o r e in f o r m a ti o n ?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

No.

N o I d i d n o t a s k fo r m o r e in f o r m a ti o n

b e c a u s e I ju s t a s k e d w h a t a b o u t t h i s o n e a n d t h e n h e s a i d n o i t is f o r
c o n s u l t in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u – d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e n w h a t c o n s u l ti n g

means?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

In m y la y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o n s u l t in g i s w h e n

you come and do certain work …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Fo r – fo r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Fo r t h e c o m p a n y.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d R 5 0 0 0 0 0 i s n o t a s m a ll a m o u n t f o r

c o n s u l t in g . I s i t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u d id n o t a s k f o r m o r e c l a r i fi c a t io n ? W h a t
f o r a n d s o o n a n d w h o – w h o is th a t a n d s o o n ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hun-uh.
10

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I f I – i f I m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A d d o n t h a t I c o u l d n o t a s k m y – Mr v a n W y k –
M r v a n W y k s o m a n y q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e n o w h e w a s g e t ti n g ir r i ta b le
b e c a u s e e v e r y l i t tl e t h in g I a s k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : E v e r y th in g I w a s a s k in g a n d n o w I w a s a s k i n g
t o o m u c h q u e s ti o n s a n d n o w a ll t h e s e m o n i e s w e r e a c o n c e r n f o r t h e m
t o b e g o i n g o u t a t th is p a c e a n d if I a s k a n d t h e n I w il l j u s t b e – t h i s is
c o n s u l t in g . Yo u k n o w - t h e r e w a s n o m o r e – I w a s n o w lik e a s e r v a n t t o

20

m y c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y e t h e k e p t o n w a n ti n g y o u to b e l ie v e y o u w e r e
the big boss?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

Ye s , b u t I – I w a s a s e r v a n t b e c a u s e n o w

a n y th in g th a t c o m e s i n to h is h e a d h e w il l j u s t t e l l m e a n d I h a v e t o ta k e
it a n d to m a i n t a i n c a l m n e s s a n d f o r t h e p e r s o n w h o is h e l p i n g m e – w h o

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
is h e l p i n g m e n o t t o b e a n g r y a n d I j u s t h a v e t o s a y y e s s ir, y e s s ir, y e s
s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w a s a t th e m i d d l e o f M a y …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l o t o f m o n e y h a d c o m e i n to t h e a c c o u n t o f t h e c lo s e
c o r p o r a t io n a n d a l o t o f m o n e y w a s g o i n g o u t .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h e r e a n y m o n e y t h a t – I m e a n – l o ts o f p e o p l e
w e r e g e t t in g p a id . M a y b e n o t l o ts b u t tw o o r t h r e e p e o p l e w e r e g e t ti n g
10

paid a lot of money – lot of monies.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e – w e r e y o u g e t t in g a n y t h in g y o u r s e l f a s th e b i g
b o s s a n d a s th e o w n e r o f t h e c o m p a n y a s a t th a t ti m e ? W a s t h e r e a n y
cent had come to you?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e h e p u t a n a m o u n t o f – h e
p u t 4 5 0 0 0 0 a n d b e f o r e t h e – I t h i n k th e y p u t 5 0 0 0 0 . N o , n o t h e y p u t
4 5 0 0 0 0 b e f o r e a n d t h e n la t e r th e y – t h e y p u t 5 0 0 0 0 to m a k e it
500 000.
CHAIRPERSON: 500 000.

20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t o y o u r p e r s o n a l a c c o u n t?
MS BABADI TLASANA:
personal account.

Into my – my – I wanted it to go to my

N o b u t t h e y tr a n s f e r r e d i t i n to m y o th e r b u s i n e s s

account.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e A b s a B a n k a c c o u n t – th e A b s a B a n k a c c o u n t ?

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M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J a , o f – o f t h e o t h e r c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , n o t o f – o f t h is c o m p a n y ?
MS BABADI TLASANA: No, no, no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o s a i d th e y m u s t p u t i t i n to t h e
account of that other company?
MS BABADI TLASANA:

M r K a l is i lir a a s k e d – a s k e d m e f o r – f o r t h e

name of – for the account number of my other company so that they can
p u t t h a t m o n e y a s a t o k e n in t o – t h a t m y b u s i n e s s a c c o u n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say as a token?
10

MS BABADI TLASANA: As a – part of a …
CHAIRPERSON: As a part payment?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s a s a s h a r e h o l d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, oh.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s m o n e y t h a t y o u w e r e g e t ti n g a s a d iv i d e n d ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d o y o u – d o y o u k n o w w h y h e w a n te d t o p a y i t

in t o t h e a c c o u n t o f t h e o t h e r c o m p a n y a n d n o t i n t o y o u r p e r s o n a l
a c c o u n t ? Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h y o r d o y o u ?
20

MS BABADI TLASANA:

C h a ir, h e – h e j u s t s a i d g iv e m e y o u r o th e r

business account number …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : A n d th e n I s a id I a m n o t a r o u n d . I a m – I a m
n o t in t h e o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
MS BABADI TLASANA:

B u t i n a n y w a y I w i ll s e e w h a t I w i ll d o a n d

t h e n . W h a t – w h a t is i t fo r ? H e s a y s n o , n o I n e e d to tr a n s f e r y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : S o m e m o n e y i n to it …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS BABADI TLASANA:

A n d t h e n b e c a u s e I w a s d r i v i n g I q u i c k ly

lo o k e d i n t o i t a n d t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : J u s t g iv e i t to – t o h i m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d th e n R 4 5 0 0 0 0 i n it i a l ly w a s p a i d a n d t h e n
la t e r a n o th e r R 5 0 0 0 0 ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . R 5 0 0 0 0 w a s – 4 5 0 w a s p a i d a n d th e n 5 0 …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: After that to make it R500 000?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w a s t h a t r o u n d a b o u t m i d – mi d - M a y 2 0 1 5 ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?

20

M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w a s i t – w o u ld it h a v e b e e n a f t e r t h e s e o t h e r

p e o p l e w h o w e h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t h a d b e e n p a i d t h e s e a m o u n t s –
E ls ( in d is ti n c t) a n d ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I s h o u l d th in k s o C h a ir. I s h o u ld t h i n k s o ,
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u th i n k s o , o k a y.

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M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d o n o t – I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. T h is i s a n o l d …
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

N o t h a t is a lr i g h t .

So at least you had

b e e n g iv e n a b o u t 5 0 0 – y o u w e r e g i v e n a b o u t R 5 0 0 0 0 0 a t …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e th e r i t w a s a r o u n d t h a t t i m e o r a ft e r y o u a r e n o t
sure but …
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

M s Tl a ts a n a c a n I j u s t g e t a fe w m o r e f a c ts

t h e r e . Th e o th e r c o m p a n y w a s t h a t th e K e n k C o m p a n y y o u r e f e r r e d to
e a r l ie r ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t g iv e t h a t f u l l n a m e a g a i n i f y o u m a y ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I t is K e n k S u p p li e r s a n d D i s tr i b u to r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u p p li e r s a n d D is t r ib u t o r s . D i d i t w o r r y y o u a t
a l l th a t th e r e w a s n o b u s in e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n K o r e n e k a a n d K e n k
a t t h a t s t a g e t o j u s t if y t h e p a y m e n t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o i t – it d i d n o t w o r r y m e b e c a u s e i t is – i t is
o n e o f m y – o n e o f m y a c c o u n ts .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t n o t a n – if y o u s e e i t o n a b a n k a c c o u n t i t
d o e s n o t a c c u r a t e l y r e f le c t t h e n a tu r e o f t h e p a y m e n t . D o y o u a c c e p t
that?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s t a t e m e n t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t h e
n a t u r e o f th e p a y m e n t i s i t is a p a y m e n t t o y o u a s a m e m b e r o f t h e C C .

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C o r r e c t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t i s y o u in y o u r p e r s o n a l c a p a c it y w h o i s a
member of the CC.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o f o r t h e b a n k tr a n s a c ti o n to p r o p e r l y r e fl e c t

t h e n a tu r e o f t h a t p a y m e n t i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a p a y m e n t i n to y o u r
10

p e r s o n a l a c c o u n t. C o r r e c t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d i d n o t q u e r y w h y th e y w e r e a s k i n g fo r
a b u s in e s s a c c o u n t o f a n o t h e r e n ti ty t h a t w a s n o t a m e m b e r o f th e C C ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d I – I a p p r e c i a te th a t y o u a r e n o t c e r t a in

a b o u t t h e t i m i n g b u t w a s i t e a r ly o n i n th e b e g i n n i n g o f t h is
a r r a n g e m e n t?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e w o u ld b e a b l e t o fi n d it i n y o u r b a n k

accounts – bank statements I assume?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s Tl a ts a n a ju s t fo r t h e r e c o r d t h is

a c c o u n t in g o f p r e c is e ly w h a t w a s p a i d to y o u o r e n t it i e s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h
y o u a s w e ll a s th e r e m a i n i n g a m o u n t t h a t i s n o t c o v e r e d b y y o u r

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a ffi d a v i t is s o m e t h i n g th a t w e h a v e a s k e d a s a C o m m is s i o n f o r y o u t o
provide to us.
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I t a k e i t th a t y o u w ill e n d e a v o u r t o d o s o
a ft e r t h is e v id e n c e ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u .

W e th e n – o h , I s e e w e h a v e

passed the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e – I h a v e ju s t n o t ic e d t o o .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e d e a d l i n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o y o u h a v e in m i n d w e s h o u l d d o t o c o m p l e te
M s Tl a ts a n a ’s e v id e n c e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir t h e r e is t h e p o s s i b i li ty o f r e t u r n i n g

t o m o r r o w. W e a r e s it t in g fr o m 9 o ’ c l o c k . W e d o h a v e a n o th e r w it n e s s
s c h e d u l e d t o m o r r o w.
about two hours.

M y e s t i m a ti o n is t h a t h e r e v id e n c e s h o u ld t a k e

S o d e p e n d in g o n t h e a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r t h e d a y w e

c o u l d s e e k t o c o n t i n u e M s Tl a ts a n a f ir s t a n d t h e n m o v e i n to t h a t
evidence.
T h a t s e e m s q u i te o b v io u s o t h e r w is e w e w o u l d h a v e t o b r e a k
20

h e r e v i d e n c e a n d I t h i n k t h a t w o u l d b e u n d e s i r a b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I – I w o u l d p r e f e r n o t t o b r e a k h e r e v id e n c e i f
p o s s i b le b u t I – I d o n o t k n o w fr o m t o m o r r o w o n w a r d s i f w e c o n ti n u e
t o m o r r o w w i t h h e r e v i d e n c e b u t I d o k n o w t h a t w e h a v e ta k e n m u c h
lo n g e r t o d o w h a t w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o d o to d a y …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I – I d o n o t fe e l t h a t – I f e e l i t w a s j u s ti f ie d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
MS BABADI TLASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
p r o p e r ly.

I fe e l t h a t w e n e e d e d t o u n d e r s ta n d c e r t a i n th in g s

So it maybe that when we - if we continue tomorrow or

w h a t e v e r d a y i t w o u l d b e fa s te r …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t m a y w e ll b e th a t w e w o u l d s t il l t a k e q u i t e s o m e
ti m e .
10

I d o n o t k n o w.

Th e r e le v a n c e o f t h a t i s th a t i f w e c o n t in u e

t o m o r r o w i t m a y b e t h a t w e e n d u p m a y b e n o t b e i n g a b le t o d o t w o
witnesses …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I a m w o n d e r i n g w h a t t h e s i t u a t io n is w i t h th e -

w i t h t h e n e x t w i tn e s s in te r m s o f f le x i b i li t y. I f w e w e r e t o c o n ti n u e w i th
M s Tl a ts a n a to m o r r o w a n d – b u t w e c a n n o t g o – g o u p to t h e n e x t
w i t n e s s w h e t h e r w e c a n tr y a n d h a v e t h a t o t h e r w it n e s s o n M o n d a y
m o r n in g b e f o r e t h e n e x t w i t n e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir, m a y I m a k e th is p r o p o s a l?

I t s e e m s to

m e i t m a y m a k e s e n s e t o c o n v e n e a t 9 o ’ c lo c k to h a v e th e o t h e r
20

w i t n e s s h e r e b e c a u s e s h e h a s b e e n s u m m o n e d to a tt e n d a n d th e n w e
c a n s t a r t Ms T l a t s a n a a n d a t th e f ir s t b r e a k I a s s u m e w e w i ll h a v e a
g o o d s e n s e o f t h e ti m i n g a n d t h e n i f i t is c l e a r th a t w e w il n o t g e t t o t h e
second witness …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e c a n p o s s ib ly e x c u s e h e r t h e n f o r a r e t u r n

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21 JUNE 2019 – DAY 117
on Monday morning.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I – I w o u l d n o t w a n t t o l o s e t h e o p p o r tu n i t y t o
h a v e h e r h e r e th o u g h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e if M s T l a ts a n a ’s e v id e n c e g o e s g o a

b i t q u ic k e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Th e n th e r e is a p r o s p e c t th a t w e c o u l d g e t t o

h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a t – t h a t i s fi n e a n d M s Tl a ts a n a i s a b l e
to come back tomorrow?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d 9 o ’ c l o c k is fi n e w i t h y o u ?
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n I th in k w e m u s t a d j o u r n n o w a n d t h e n w e
w i ll s ta r t a t n i n e t o m o r r o w.

So please come back tomorrow at 9 o’

c lo c k .
M S B A B A D I T L A S A N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l th e n a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 2 J U N E 2 0 1 9

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