C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 22 JUNE 2019 D AY 11 8 20 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 PROCEEDINGS ON 22 JUNE 2019 CHAIRPERSON: G o o d M o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r o n a S a t u r d a y m o r n in g , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ar e y o u r e a d y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y ju s t r e q u e s t t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s T la ts a n a 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r i f I m a y r e q u e s t a n o p p o r t u n i ty j u s t f o r t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f M s Vil j o e n to p l a c e h e r s e lf o n r e c o r d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . ADV ESTELLE KILLIAN: M o r n in g J u d g e E s te ll e K ill i a n J o h a n n e s b u r g B a r in s t r u c t e d b y M o u y i s C o h e n o n b e h a l f o f M s Vi lj o e n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir j u s t o n e o r t w o l o g i s t ic a l ly m a t te r s i f w e m a y b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e w i t h M s – w e l l r e c o m m e n c e w it h M r 20 Tl a ts a n a ’s e v i d e n c e ? C h a ir w h e n w e c o n c l u d e d f a ir ly la t e y e s t e r d a y e v e n i n g w e w e r e a n ti c i p a t i n g t h e p r o s p e c t t h a t w e m a y b e a b le t o g e t to M s Vi lj o e n ’s e v i d e n c e to d a y. H a v i n g l o o k e d a t w h a t s t il l r e m a in s o f M r Tl a ts a n a ’s e v i d e n c e th a t n e e d s to b e c o v e r e d t o d a y m y s u g g e s t io n is t h a t i n fa ir n e s s to M s Vil j o e n w h o m a y w e ll n o t b e r e a c h e d in h e r e v i d e n c e t o d a y s h e b e r e l e a s e d f r o m a t te n d i n g t o d a y to r e t u r n o n Page 2 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M o n d a y m o r n i n g . T h e id e a w o u l d b e th e n t o e n s u r e th a t w e c o m p le t e M s Tl a ts a n a ’s e v id e n c e t o d a y s o t h a t M s Vi lj o e n ’s e v id e n c e c a n b e t h e fir s t u p o n M o n d a y m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h e y a r e a g r e e a b l e t o th a t ? A D V E S T E L L E K I L L I A N : W e a r e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M s Vil jo e n y o u a r e r e l e a s e d a n d p l e a s e r e t u r n o n M o n d a y m o r n i n g . M o n d a y w e w i ll s t a r t ten o’clock? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Te n o ’c l o c k s h o u ld b e fi n e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I t h i n k le t u s s t a r t a t t e n o ’ c l o c k s o b e b a c k a t t e n o ’c l o c k . MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I f w e m a y t h e n c o n t i n u e w i th M s Tl a ts a n a ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e m a y c o n ti n u e . T h e o a th y o u to o k M s T la t s a n a w i ll a p p ly th r o u g h o u t u n ti l y o u h a v e fi n is h e d y o u r e v id e n c e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir o n e th in g j u s t a s M s Vi lj o e n is le a v i n g I d o ju s t w a n t t o m e n t io n th a t M s Vi l jo e n ’s la w y e r w a s c o n t a c t e d y e s t e r d a y a b o u t t h e f a c t th a t th e r e is a n a s p e c t o f M s T la ts a n a ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t m a y b e r e l e v a n t t o M s Vi l jo e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o e s i t r e q u ir e h e r to b e i n a t t e n d a n c e Page 3 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e h e a r i n g t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t s h e s h o u ld ju s t b e a w a r e o f t h a t f a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If we then m ove Ms Tlatsana when we c o n c l u d e d y e s te r d a y w e w e r e a t p a g e 1 7 , 1 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d w e w e r e a t t h e p o in t … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e o n e t h a t D D … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s – a p o lo g ie s – D D 8 [a ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s i n D D 8 [a ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D D 8 [a ] a t p a g e 1 7 a n d w e w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 4 .3 6 t h e r e w h e r e w e w e r e d e a l in g w it h t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 th a t w a s tr a n s fe r r e d o u t o f K o r e n e k e ’s a c c o u n t w it h – f o r a p a y m e n t w i t h a r e fe r e n c e L S k a k k e l , d o y o u s e e t h a t M s Tl a ts a n a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. Thank you, you may proceed. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : t e s ti fi e d about an T h a n k y o u C h a ir. amount of i n i t ia ll y Ms T l a ts a n a y o u a ls o R450 000,00 and then a s u b s e q u e n t a b o u t o f R 5 0 ,0 0 0 ,0 0 t h a t w a s p a i d i n t o t h e b a n k a c c o u n t o f y o u r o th e r b u s in e s s K e n k S u p p l i e s a n d F a c i li t a to r s a n d w h a t I w o u ld t h e n l ik e t o t a k e y o u t o is t h e n e x t a m o u n t t h a t c o m e s i n to t h e K o r e n e k e b a n k a c c o u n t a s I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n D D 8 [ a ] a n d Page 4 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 y o u w i ll f in d t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 7 o n t h a t p a g e . What amount was t h a t a n d w h e n w a s it r e c e iv e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e a m o u n t i s 8 . 5 m i lli o n C h a ir i t enter the account on the 27 August. CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y. We lo o k e d a t p a g e 1 7 a n d t h e n y o u r e fe r r e d t o p a g e 3 7 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o a p o l o g i e s C h a i r i t is p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 7 o n t h a t page. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y th a n k y o u . O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s T l a t s a n a y o u w e r e te ll i n g u s 8 . 5 m il li o n w a s r e c e iv e d i n to t h e a c c o u n t a n d w h a t w a s t h e d a t e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : The date was the 27 August 2015 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u r a ffi d a v i t p r o g r e s s e s to tr a c k t h e a m o u n ts t h a t t h e n fl o w o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t a f t e r th e 2 7 A u g u s t . If y o u g o d o w n t o p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 8 w h e n – w h e n w a s th e n e x t a m o u n t t h a t w e n t o u t a n d w h a t w a s i ts a m o u n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e n e x t a m o u n t w a s 5 m i lli o n t h a t c a m e o u t fr o m K o r e n e k e a c c o u n t o n th e 1 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t e x p la n a t i o n w e r e y o u g iv e n fo r th a t p a y m e n t o u t o f th e a c c o u n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r Va n W y k i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t i t is f o r o t h e r s ta k e h o l d e r s , fir e tr u c k s a n d t h e s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s i n b o t h a ir p o r ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d id h e i n d ic a t e t h a t t o y o u ? Page 5 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e c a l le d m e to in f o r m C h a ir. ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: And what did you u n d e r s ta n d o th e r s t a k e h o ld e r s , f ir e tr u c k s a n d s e c u r i t y c a m e r a s t o r e la t e to ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Other stakeholders to me by then it w a s y e s t h e – l ik e h e s a id t h e f ir e t r u c k s a n d t h e c a m e r a s in b o th a ir p o r ts th a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r a g r e e m e n t w i t h S o u th A f r i c a n Ex p r e s s A i r w a y s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o b e r e q u i r e d t o p u r c h a s e f ir e t r u c k s ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : By th a t ti m e I d id n o t h a v e t h e c o n tr a c t C h a ir t o k n o w w h a t w a s e n t a il e d i n t h e c o n tr a c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M s Tl a ts a n a y o u d id h a v e a n id e a o f th e p r o p o s a l a n d t h e ty p e o f w o r k t h a t y o u e n v i s a g e d d o i n g , d id y o u n o t ? A s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r t e s t i m o n y y e s te r d a y y o u h a d a s e n s e fr o m h i m o n t h e d a y t h a t y o u w e r e s i g n i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d b e d o in g g r o u n d h a n d li n g w o r k . Yo u w o u ld b e m a y b e d o i n g s o m e g a r d e n i n g a n d s o m e c l e a n i n g . S o te ll m e w h y t h e n fi r e tr u c k s a r e a b a s is f o r R 5 m il li o n e x i ti n g K o r e n e k e ’s a c c o u n t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 I d i d n o t k n o w C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I w a s g iv e n b y Mr Va n W y k th a t th e y a r e g o i n g t o p u r c h a s e t h e f ir e tr u c k s a n d th e c a m e r a s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l th e – t h e q u e s t io n i s y o u w e r e to ld t h a t – y o u h a v e s a i d y o u w e r e t o ld t h a t t h is a m o u n t w a s f o r o t h e r s t a k e h o l d e r s . Yo u w e r e a s k e d w h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d b y th e - a n d y o u s a id y o u t h o u g h t it w a s f o r o r y o u – o r y o u w e r e t o l d it w a s f o r fir e tr u c k s . Page 6 of 172 Now the 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 q u e s t io n w a s , w a s i t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s t h a t y o u r c lo s e d c o r p o r a t i o n w a s g o i n g t o b e in v o lv e d i n w o u l d i n v o l v e t r u c k s a t a n y s ta g e w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g b e fo r e t h is h a p p e n e d – b e fo r e t h is a m o u n t o f R 5 m il li o n w a s t a k e n o u t o f y o u r a c c o u n t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W a s it e v e r y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t y o u r b u s i n e s s in c l u d e d h a v in g a n y th in g t o d o w i th f ir e tr u c k s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir, n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n th e s e c o n d e x p l a n a t io n y o u w e r e g iv e n s e c u r i t y c a m e r a s f o r t h e a i r p o r ts . D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o b e p a r t o f t h e b u s i n e s s th a t y o u w o u l d b e d o i n g f o r S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u s u b s e q u e n tl y I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u r e f e r e n c e a l a te r r e q u e s t t o p a y s o m e m o n e y i n r e la t io n t o s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Te l l u s a b o u t t h a t p l e a s e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 A t a la t e r s t a g e i n a – 2 0 1 6 a n d I r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m t h e M a fi k e n g s e c u r it i e s t h a t t h e r e h a v e b e e n c a m e r a s t h a t th e y h a v e p u t a n d I h a v e t o p a y – K o r e n e k e h a s t o p a y a n a m o u n t o f R 4 9 5 o r 6 5 i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c a n ju s t g iv e y o u t h e r e f e r e n c e t o a s s i s t M s Tl a ts a n a i t is a t p a g e 2 0 , 2 0 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t w h ic h is i n E x h i b i t D D 8 [ a ] a n d y o u w il l f i n d it a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 5 0 o n th a t p a g e . Page 7 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h a t a m o u n t th a t y o u w e r e r e q u ir e d pay? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a s r e q u ir e d t o R 4 9 5 0 0 0 ,0 0 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I j u s t g e t c le a r o n t h e c h r o n o l o g y. Th is is a f t e r t h e 2 0 – t h e 1 6 S e p te m b e r w h e n a n a m o u n t o f R 5 m il li o n g o e s o u t o f th e K o r e n e k e a c c o u n t a n d y o u a r e t o l d b y M r Va n W y k it is b e i n g u s e d a m o n g s t o t h e r t h in g s f o r s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s a t t h e a ir p o r t , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n l a t e r i n 2 0 1 6 a s I h a v e y o u r te s t i m o n y y o u w e r e r e q u ir e d to m a k e a f u r t h e r p a y m e n t o f R 4 9 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 fo r s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n s o f a r a s t h e f ir e tr u c k s a r e c o n c e r n e d w e r e y o u e v e r a w a r e o f a n y fi r e tr u c k h a v in g b e e n d e l iv e r e d to e i t h e r t h e M a f ik e n g o r t h e P il a n e s b e r g a ir p o r t s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e r e w a s n e v e r a f ir e tr u c k d e liv e r e d t o a n y o f t h e a ir p o r ts C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d i n s o fa r a s s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s a r e c o n c e r n e d o th e r th a n y o u r te s ti m o n y a b o u t t h e in t e r a c t io n i n 2 0 1 6 w e r e y o u a t a n y o th e r p o i n t a w a r e o f s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s b e in g i n s t a l l e d a t e i th e r o f th e a ir p o r ts ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a n y s e c u r it y c a m e r a s b e i n g i n s ta ll e d i n a n y o f t h e a ir p o r ts C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e ju s t g e t c le a r b e c a u s e y e s t e r d a y y o u Page 8 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 g a v e u s te s t i m o n y t h a t y o u a c t u a l ly h a d n o t v i s i t e d P il a n e s b e r g a ir p o r t u n t il a d a te a t t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 6 . C a n y o u t e ll u s w h a t t h e p o s i t io n is i n r e l a ti o n t o M a fi k e n g a ir p o r t? W h e n h a d y o u b e e n t h e r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I started going to the – to both a ir p o r ts fr o m t h e b e g in n i n g o f 2 0 1 6 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Th a t is a c o r r e c ti o n t h e n o n m y p a r t . I h a d in c o r r e c tly r e c o r d y o u r e v i d e n c e to s a y t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 6 . S o in b o t h c a s e s y o u w e n t to b o t h a ir p o r t s f o r th e fir s t ti m e i n e a r l y 2 0 1 6 , is t h a t c o r r e c t? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u g i v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h a t w a s o r w a s n o t a t th e a ir p o r ts t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o t fir e tr u c k s a n d t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e n o t s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f b e in g in s t a l l e d I m u s t t a k e th a t a n d c o r r e c t m e if I a m w r o n g t o b e e v i d e n c e r e l a t e d t o t h e p e r io d a f t e r e a r ly 2 0 1 6 , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o m e a g a i n w i th y o u r q u e s t io n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s it w a s q u i te a d e t a il e d q u e s ti o n e d . Yo u h a v e j u s t g iv e n e v i d e n c e M s Tl a ts a n a t h a t y o u a r e n o t a w a r e o f f ir e tr u c k s e v e r b e i n g d e l iv e r e d t o e it h e r a ir p o r t , c o r r e c t? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a l s o a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y s a i d y o u a ls o d o n o t k n o w o f a n y s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s h a v i n g b e e n in s t a ll e d a t e i t h e r o f th e a ir p o r t s u n ti l y o u r in t e r a c ti o n a r o u n d t h e R 4 9 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 , correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 9 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m n o w tr y in g t o u n d e r s ta n d is t o w h a t p e r i o d d o e s t h a t k n o w l e d g e r e la t e b e c a u s e y o u o n ly v is i te d t h e t w o a ir p o r ts a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e fr o m e a r l y 2 0 1 6 , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o i t i s fr o m t h a t d a t e th a t y o u c a n s a y y o u a r e a w a r e o f n o f ir e t r u c k s a n d n o s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f f ir e tr u c k s h a d b e e n d e l iv e r e d p r io r to t h a t d o y o u t h in k t h e y w o u l d h a v e s t il l b e e n a t t h e a ir p o r ts ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No. Well let me be clear about my question. Yo u d i d n o t e v e r s e e fir e tr u c k s , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I o n l y s a w a n o ld fir e tr u c k i n M a f ik e n g a ir p o r t w h ic h w h e n I a s k e d M r K a lis il ir a h e s a id i t is c o mi n g fr o m M p u m a la n g a i t is b e i n g h ir e d to c o m e a n d a s s is t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th e q u e s t io n s ti ll r e m a in s . R e m e m b e r y o u h a v e b e e n to l d i n – o n t h e 1 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 t h a t t h e R 5 m il li o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y w a s g o i n g t o b e u s e d t o p u r c h a s e a m o n g s t o th e r t h i n g s f ir e t r u c k s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t n o fi r e tr u c k s w e r e d e li v e r e d to e i t h e r a ir p o r t , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u o n l y v i s i t e d t h e a i r p o r ts in e a r ly 2 0 2 6 , correct? Page 10 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t I a m p r o b in g is , is i t p o s s ib le th a t fi r e tr u c k s w e r e d e l iv e r e d b e t w e e n S e p t e m b e r a n d e a r ly 2 0 1 6 t h e n n e v e r to b e s e e n a g a i n f r o m e a r ly 2 0 1 6 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o , n o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e b a s is fo r y o u r a n s w e r f o r s a y i n g n o i t is n o t p o s s ib le ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e r e w e r e n o … CHAIRPERSON: W h y d o y o u s a y n o i t is n o t p o s s i b l e t h a t t h e fir e tr u c k s c o u ld h a v e b e e n d e l iv e r e d b e tw e e n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d e a r ly 2016? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e n e w, t h e n e w tr u c k th e y w e r e t a lk in g a b o u t i t w a s n o t t h e r e a n d i f i t w a s d e liv e r e d I w o u l d – I w o u l d h a v e k n o w n I w o u ld h a v e s e e n i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t y o u c o u l d o n ly h a v e s e e n i t e a r ly i n 2 0 1 6 b e c a u s e y o u – I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y y o u d i d n o t g o t o t h e a ir p o r t s b e f o r e e a r ly 2 0 1 6 . 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t w a s n o t a n e w f ir e tr u c k according to… CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a t w a s n o t a n e w f ir e t r u c k C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o a m I c o r r e c t i n u n d e r s ta n d i n g y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e t h a t y o u o n ly w e n t t o th e a ir p o r ts i n e a r l y 2 0 1 6 – e a r ly Page 11 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 in 2 0 1 6 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Between September 2015 and January 2016 did you g o t o t h e a ir p o r t s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir I d i d n o t. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h o w w o u l d y o u k n o w i f tr u c k s d id a r r iv e d u r in g t h a t p e r i o d a n d w e r e – a n d d is a p p e a r e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I – I d id n o t k n o w C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w o u l d n o t h a v e k n o w n C h a ir b e c a u s e I have never been there. CHAIRPERSON: O h b u t I t h o u g h t y o u – y o u r a n s w e r w a s t h a t th e y c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n th e r e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e I m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I w o u l d n o t k n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u … C H A I R P E R S O N : D id I m is u n d e r s t a n d s o m e th in g M s H o f m e y r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o C h a ir i t is t h e c l a r i f ic a t i o n w e a r e i n d e b t e d t o y o u fo r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a i f t h a t is s o d i d y o u h a v e Page 12 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s o m e b o d y w o r k i n g fo r y o u th a t w a s o n s ig h t i n M a f ik e n g a ir p o r t a n d P il a n e s b e r g a ir p o r t i n t h a t p e r i o d S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 t o e a r ly 2 0 1 6 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir th e r e w e r e f a c il i ti e s m a n a g e r a s w e ll a s t h e s ta ff – t h e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s t a ff , th e c l e a n i n g a n d th e g a r d e n e r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w a s t h e f a c il i t ie s m a n a g e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s M s N o t h a n d u D u b e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u m a k e a n y e n q u ir i e s o f h e r a s to w h e t h e r f ir e tr u c k s w e r e b e in g d e li v e r e d o r c a m e r a s w e r e b e i n g 10 in s t a l l e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I d i d n o t e n q u ir e fr o m h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t s h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n o n th e g r o u n d a t th e ti m e a t th e a ir p o r ts ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e c o u l d e n q u i r e fr o m h e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I d i d n o t e n q u ir e fr o m h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y I w a s s a y i n g w e c o u ld a s k h e r fo r t h a t c la r i ty ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o s h e is s a y in g th e y w i l l a s k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e c o m m i s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w il l a s k – t h e y w il l a s k h e r w h e t h e r s h e k n o w s a n y th in g a b o u t f ir e tr u c k s th a t m a y h a v e c o m e d u r in g t h a t ti m e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S h e w o u l d h a v e – s h e w o u l d h a v e s a id if a fir e tr u c k w o u ld h a v e a r r iv d . Page 13 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Te l l m e w h o e ls e a p a r t fr o m M s D u b e c o u l d h a v e r e p o r t e d t o y o u i f f ir e t r u c k s h a d a r r iv e d d u r i n g t h a t t i m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : gardeners. Th e g r o u n d h a n d li n g s t a ff o r t h e I th in k t h e y w o u l d – n o , n o n o t I th i n k – t h e y w o u l d h a v e r e p o r t e d b u t a n y w a y i t is n o t th e i r r e s p o n s ib il i ty to r e p o r t t o m e . Th e p e r s o n t o r e p o r t is t h e f a c il it i e s m a n a g e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t d i d s h e m a k e r e g u l a r r e p o r ts t o y o u d u r in g th a t ti m e a s a m a t te r o f fa c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n m e a n d M s N o th a n d o D u b e s h e w a s r e p o r t in g to M r Br ia n Va n Wyk. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y y o u h a d n o e x p e c ta t io n t h a t s h e w o u l d t e ll y o u i f a n y t h i n g h a p p e n e d a t th e a ir p o r t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir I w o u l d s a y th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h e r e w a s – i s th e p o s it i o n th a t t h e r e w a s n o b o d y a t t h e a ir p o r t w h o y o u b e l ie v e c o u l d h a v e ta k e n t h e tr o u b le t o t e ll y o u i f t h e r e w e r e tr u c k s – t h e r e w e r e f i r e tr u c k s t h a t h a d a r r iv e d ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir i f – j a . CHAIRPERSON: W a s th a t t h e p o s i t io n o n ly d u r in g t h a t ti m e n a m e ly S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 5 to e a r ly 2 0 1 7 o r w a s t h a t t h e p o s i ti o n t h r o u g h o u t fr o m M a y w h e n y o u s ta r t e d w o r k in g – y o u r c o m p a n y s t a r t e d w o r k i n g t h r o u g h o u t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g – fr o m t h e Page 14 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 in c e p ti o n o f … CHAIRPERSON: Of the business. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O f t h e b u s in e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f g r o u n d h a n d li n g . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Up to the end. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u – y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e in c h a r g e – y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e t h e f o u n d e r o f t h e c lo s e d c o r p o r a ti o n . Yo u w e r e t h e p e r s o n 10 w h o c a m e w i t h t h e id e a a n d s o l d t h e id e a to r e l e v a n t p e o p le b u t th e r e w a s n o b o d y th a t w a s w o r k i n g i n t h e a i r p o r ts – i n t h e t w o a ir p o r ts w h o w a s r e p o r ti n g b a c k t o y o u a s t o w h a t is h a p p e n i n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I f I h a v e t o r e s p o n d t o th a t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e b u s i n e s s w a s h ij a c k e d fr o m m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b u s i n e s s w a s h ij a c k e d fr o m y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n – a t w h a t s t a g e d id y o u r e a li s e t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : U m … 20 CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you come to that conclusion that my business has been hijacked? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir t h e b u s i n e s s w a s h ij a c k e d i n t h e b e g in n i n g b e c a u s e a lo t o f th i n g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g . Mr K a l is il ir a w o u ld d o t h e tr a n s a c t io n s I w o u ld n o t k n o w. I w o u l d j u s t s e e fr o m t h e p h o n e t h a t m o n e y h a s g o n e a n d a f t e r th e m o n e y h a s g o n e i f I a s k I w il l b e t o l d Page 15 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 a n o t h e r s to r y t h a t t h e m o n e y h a s g o n e a c c o r d i n g t o th e w a y i t a p p e a r e d o n t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d o n t h e p h o n e . If I h a v e t o – to a s k o f t h e d a i ly r u n n in g ’s o f t h e b u s in e s s n o , n o i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y w e a r e d o in g t h e r e p o r t s – t h e r e p o r t s a r e i n t h e fi l e s – w e a r e d o i n g t h e r e p o r ts a n d t h e n w e a r e g i v i n g th e r e p o r ts t o S A Ex p r e s s b e c a u s e o n d a i ly b a s is f o r w h a t e v e r s e r v ic e s t h a t w a s d o n e t h e y h a v e t o s e n d t h e r e p o r ts t o M s J a c o b s , M a u r e e n J a c o b s . S o t h e y w e r e c o m m u n ic a ti n g a lo n e t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h e q u e s ti o n i s a t w h a t s t a g e d id y o u c o m e to t h e c o n c lu s i o n t h a t y o u r b u s i n e s s h a d b e e n h ij a c k e d ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I h a d n o c o n tr o l o f it C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no I understand that part. At what stage did y o u r e a lis e th a t m y b u s in e s s h a s b e e n h ij a c k e d ? Wa s i t i n M a y w h e n y o u s ta r t e d … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: W o r k i n g o n t h is g r o u n d h a n d l in g b u s in e s s w i t h S A E x p r e s s ? W a s it in M a r c h , w a s it i n J u ly, w a s i t i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 , w a s i t in 2 0 1 6 o r w a s i t i n 2 0 1 8 , 2 0 1 9 , w h e n w a s i t d i d y o u r e a lis e w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d h e r e is t h a t m y b u s i n e s s h a s b e e n h i j a c k e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir in t h e b e g in n in g w h e n – d u r i n g 20 t h e fl o w – i m m e d ia t e l y w h e n t h e fi r s t m o n e y e n te r s i n t o t h e a c c o u n t if I a s k I w a s ir r i ta t in g th e t o n e o f M r Va n W y k s t a r te d to c h a n g e . H e w il l ju s t s h u t m e o u t a n d a n s w e r m e q u ic k ly j u s t to d i s mi s s m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o Ms T l a ts a n a . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W h ic h is … C H A I R P E R S O N : I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g . I w a n t y o u t o t e ll Page 16 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 m e e x a c tl y w h a t h a p p e n e d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: A n d I a m l is te n in g to y o u r e v i d e n c e v e r y a t te n ti v e ly b u t I a m a s k i n g n o w fo r t h e th ir d ti m e a t w h a t s t a g e d id y o u r e a li s e th a t y o u r b u s i n e s s h a d b e e n h ij a c k e d ? W a s i t i n 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 1 6 . . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o i t i s d i ffi c u l t . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 1 7 , 2 0 1 9 , y e s t e r d a y o r to d a y, w h e n e x a c t ly ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 0 1 5 I t h i n k J u n e , J u l y. CHAIRPERSON: 2016 or 2015? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 1 0 , 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 1 5 o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r o u n d J u n e , J u ly ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr i g h t . A n d w h e n y o u r e a li s e d t h is w h a t d i d y o u d e c id e t o d o a b o u t it ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s a c o n c e r n t o m e C h a ir a n d I c o m m u n ic a te d t h is c o n c e r n w i t h m y s p ir i t u a l fa t h e r i n c h u r c h a n d h e a d v is e d m e t h a t y o u k n o w i f t h i n g s a r e g o i n g l ik e th is th e o n ly t h in g 20 t h a t y o u d o is r e c o r d e v e r y t h i n g – e v e r y t h i n g t h a t is h a p p e n in g , e v e r y c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e c o r d it s o t h a t y o u c o u ld h a v e s o m e t h i n g to s t a n d o n . CHAIRPERSON: W e a r e m a y b e a s k i n g y o u t h i n g s th a t m a y b e s h o u l d b e a s k e d l a te r i n t e r m s o f t h e s e q u e n c e b u t I w a n t t o fi n d o u t n o w. L e t m e g o b a c k t o y e s t e r d a y ’s e v i d e n c e . W h e n y o u a g r e e d to M r Va n W y k ’s s u g g e s t io n t h a t y o u s h o u l d ta k e i n m o r e p e o p l e in y o u r c lo s e d Page 17 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 c o r p o r a t io n a n d h e s u g g e s te d t w o n a m e s a n d y o u a g r e e d t o h a v e t h e m a s r e g is te r e d a s m e m b e r s o f y o u r c l o s e d c o r p o r a t io n d i d t h e y p a y y o u a n y th in g f o r th e i n te r e s t n a m e ly s h a r e s i n t e r m s o f c l o s e d c o r p o r a t i o n s it is c a l le d i n t e r e s t b u t e ff e c t iv e ly f o r th e s h a r e s i n y o u r c o m p a n y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u a s k th e m t o p a y a n y th in g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D i d t h e y b r i n g a n y t h i n g o f v a l u e t o t h e – to th e b u s i n e s s a s y o u u n d e r s to o d a t th a t ti m e ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d d i d y o u a l l t h r e e b e c o m e e q u a l p a r tn e r s a s i t w e r e in t h e b u s i n e s s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i n t e r m s o f d iv id e n d s w e r e y o u a l l g o i n g t o g e t equal shares of dividends? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u g o in g to g e t m o r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ac c o r d in g t o Mr Va n W y k h e w a s s a y in g t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e – i t is j u s t f o r t h e – fo r t h e [i n d is t in c t ] t o 20 in d i c a t e t h a t a t l e a s t p e o p l e a r e t h e r e . T h e y w i ll j u s t g e t s m a l l p o r t i o n o f d iv i d e n d s a t t h e e n d o f t h e y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u s a y i n te r ms o f p a p e r w o r k . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye x . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e r e g i s te r e d a s e q u a l p a r tn e r s t o y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir 3 3 , 3 3 . Page 18 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n I w a s 3 4 % . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u d id n o t s e e k a n y l e g a l a d v ic e i n r e g a r d t o t h is b e f o r e y o u a g r e e d to t h i s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir I d i d n o t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . But you say when you were – had spoken to y o u r s p ir i t u a l a d v is o r y o u d i d n o t d e c i d e t o t a k e a n y s t e p s – s t o p – a n y s t e p s to p u t a n e n d t o th e h ij a c k i n g o f y o u r b u s i n e s s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 Ye s C h a ir I t h o u g h t o f a l l th o s e b u t n o w I – I h a v e to h a v e s o m e t h i n g o n c o n c r e t e to s a y t h is i s w h a t th e y were doing. I d id n o t c o m e th a t I s h o u l d b e o n a h a s t e t o t a k e a n y le g a l s t e p s h e n c e I r e p o r te d to S A E x p r e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M y e x p e r i e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B y J u ly o r a r o u n d J u ly 2 0 1 5 is t h a t w h e n y o u s a id y o u g o t a b o u t R 4 5 0 o r R 5 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 fr o m t h is g r o u n d h a n d l in g b u s i n e s s th a t t h e a c c o u n t a n t p u t i n to t h e a c c o u n t o f y o u r o t h e r c o m p a n y, w a s i t a r o u n d a b o u t t h a t ti m e t o J u ly 2 0 1 5 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 If I h a v e to – c a n I c h e c k my s t a te m e n t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n c h e c k b u t y o u d o n o t h a v e t o b e e x a c t , J u ly, J u n e , A u g u s t I a m h a p p y a s lo n g a s – I ju s t w a n t t o r e m i n d – t o b e r e m i n d e d a b o u t a r o u n d w h e n y o u g o t th e R 4 5 0 – t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e ti m e b u t ja t h a t w a s … Page 19 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: It was somewhere in the middle of 2015? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. U p t o th a t s t a g e y o u h a d n o t b e e n p h y s i c a ll y t h r e a t e n e d t h a t i f y o u d i d n o t a g r e e t o d o a n y t h in g y o u w o u ld b e harmed had you? H a d a n y o f t h e p e o p l e in v o lv e d h e r e p h y s ic a l ly threatened you with anything? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir Mr B r i a n Va n W y k ’s c h a r a c t e r is – h e is a v e r y a r r o g a n t p e r s o n a n d h e is v e r y b u ll y. A n d h e w a s v e r y b u ll y b y t h e e n d I w a s to d o a s h e s a y s . A n d i f I q u e s ti o n e d h e w o u ld 10 t h r e a t e n m e t h a t h e w ill r e p o r t m e t o t h e A N C p e o p l e , h is – h e is s e c u r e d b y t h e A N C p e o p l e s o w h a t h e is t e l li n g m e t o d o I m u s t j u s t d o as he says I should do. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u s c a r e d o f th a t t h r e a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir I w a s s c a r e d b e c a u s e I – I … CHAIRPERSON: W h a t c o u l d th e A N C d o t o y o u i f h e t o l d t h e m w h a t e v e r h e m i g h t t e ll t h e m a b o u t y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B y t h e n w h a t c a m e i n t o my m i n d th a t w a s th e ti m e – t h a t w a s – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s d u r in g o r a f t e r t h e – th a t in c i d e n t o f Mr B o z w a n a w h e n h e w a s k i ll e d a n d t h e – f o r m e 20 t o s a v e m y l i fe is j u s t to b e q u i e t a n d a b i d e w i t h w h a t M r Va n W y k w a s s a y in g I s h o u ld d o . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e h e w o u l d b o a s t to m e t h a t h e is a h i g h p e r s o n i n th e A N C a n d I a m – I a m a s k i n g t o o m u c h q u e s ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u – w h a t d id y o u t h i n k th e A N C w o u ld d o t o Page 20 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 you that you were fearing? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To b e k il l e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d id y o u t h in k t h a t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir M r Va n W y k … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d i d y o u th i n k t h e A N C w o u l d k il l y o u ? W e l l w h a t – w h a t h a d y o u d o n e w h ic h y o u t h o u g h t w o u l d m a k e t h e A N C w a n t t o – want you dead? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir h e r e i s th e p r o j e c t t h a t is g o i n g o n a n d I a m b u s y a s k i n g M r v a n W y k s o m a n y q u e s t io n s . H e i s g e t ti n g 10 ir r i t a b l e . I a m c a ll in g – I a m n o t fi n d i n g h i m a n d w h a t is i t – th e t h i n g w a s w h a t is i t t h a t I w a n t t o k n o w b e c a u s e I t o l d y o u t h a t w e a r e h e r e – I a m h e r e to a s s is t y o u t o s e e t h a t t h e p r o j e c t is g o i n g s m o o t h . W h y d o y o u n o t ju s t r e l a x a s I t o l d y o u t h a t y o u s h o u ld j u s t r e l a x ? T h a t is w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u r s p ir i tu a l a d v is o r a d v i s e d y o u t o w h a t – t o r e c o r d e v e r y th i n g ( in t e r v e n e s ) ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : E v e r y c o m m u n ic a ti o n , y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r w h a t p u r p o s e in t h e e n d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F o r t h e p u r p o s e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u – a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t h e w a s s a y in g . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F o r th e p u r p o s e i f m a y b e t h i s w o u ld le a d m e i n to – m a y b e i f k il li n g , d e a t h o r m a y b e th is a t a l a te r s t a g e j u s t b e o b s e r v a n t , j u s t b e lis t e n i n g t o h i m a n d b e o b s e r v a n t . C r e a te c o n v e r s a ti o n s s o t h a t h e s h o u l d e n d u p s a y i n g w h a t h is i n t e n ti o n is h e – d o e s h e w a n t t o d o w i t h t h is c o m p a n y b e c a u s e t h e w a y h e w a s g o i n g Page 21 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 on it was not good. It was very bad. CHAIRPERSON: Fr o m y o u r p o i n t o f v ie w a s y o u w e r e r e c o r d i n g a c ti v i ti e s a n d d is c u s s i o n s d id y o u in t e n d t a k i n g a l l o f t h e s e th i n g s to s o m e a u t h o r i t ie s t o s a y l o o k w h a t s o a n d s o h a s b e e n d o in g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e i t w a s t o o m u c h o n my head. I d id n o t – I c o u ld n o t e v e n th in k s tr a ig h t b y th e n b e c a u s e h e r e is a b u s i n e s s . H e r e is m y l i fe a n d t h e n I – I w a s s e e k i n g a d v i c e fr o m t h e p e o p le . O n e o f th e fir s t p e r s o n w h o I s p o k e t o i s – it w a s M s J a c o b s w h o i s w o r k in g f o r S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e n s h e a d v is e d m e t h a t 10 w h y d o y o u n o t c o n t a c t th e s e c u r i t y i n o u r c o m p a n y, Mr N g w e n y a … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : And – to inform him this – about – a b o u t t h i s t h in g . A n y w a y t h i s – t h e s e t h i n g s th e y c a m e in 2 0 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A b o u t – g o to – c o n ta c t M r N g w e n y a a n d tr y a n d t a lk t o h i m b e c a u s e i m m e d i a t e l y a f te r – c a n I C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e i n J a n u a r y w h e n I w a s r e fu s i n g th e m a c c e s s i n t o th e a c c o u n t M r v a n W y k a n d M s P h ir i th e y 20 w e n t – th e y o p e n e d a c a s e a g a i n s t m e t h a t I i ll e g a ll y t o o k M s P h ir i o u t o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d b y t h e n Ms P h ir i r e s ig n e d b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a s t o r y b e f o r e th e n i n t h e c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M s H o f m e y r w e w e n t o n – o n – I w a s fo ll o w i n g a c e r ta in is s u e b u t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . Page 22 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir I w o u l d j u s t li k e to fo ll o w u p ju s t s o w e k e e p f a i t h f u l t o h e r c h r o n o lo g y a n d I w o u l d ju s t l ik e t o g e t c la r i fi c a t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d in y o u r te s ti m o n y. A s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h e C h a ir y o u s t a r te d to b e c o m e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e h ij a c k i n g o f y o u r c o m p a n y a r o u n d J u n e /J u l y 2 0 1 5 . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 A n d t h e n y o u m o v e t o y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h M r N g w e n y a . N o w th o s e a r e in J u n e 2 0 1 6 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t. I t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e ju s t l o o k a t t h a t ti m e f r a m e b e c a u s e b e t w e e n J u n e 2 0 1 5 a n d J u n e 2 0 1 6 y o u d o – a s I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v it - a ls o t a k e o t h e r s t e p s t o d e n y M r v a n W y k access … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To th e b a n k a c c o u n t. 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l c o m e t o t h a t b u t j u s t s o w e h a v e i t i n ti m e . As I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff id a v i t – th a t is a r o u n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c o u ld w e j u s t g o i n s e q u e n c e th e n b e c a u s e Page 23 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h e i s s u e s t h a t t h e D C – t h e C h a ir i s p r o b i n g r e la t e t o w h e n y o u f ir s t r e a l is e d t h a t th is c o m p a n y h a s b e e n h i ja c k e d a n d w e h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e J u n e /J u ly 2 0 1 5 b u t M s T l a ts a n a th e r e a r e s ti ll f u r th e r p a y m e n t s t h a t c o m e o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t a t t h a t ti m e . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a v e n o t ta k e n s te p s t o s to p t h a t c o n d u c t in y o u r b u s i n e s s y e t h a v e y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 the payments. O k a y. S o i f w e c o u l d th e n j u s t c o n ti n u e w i th S o w e c o n tr a c t th e m c h r o n o l o g ic a l ly a n d t h e n I w o u l d lik e t o g e t u s t o th e p o i n t w h e r e a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e y o u d o d e n y a c c e s s to t h e a c c o u n t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t – i f w e – le t u s i f w e m a y g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 8 – 1 - 8 – o f y o u r a ff id a v i t . T h a t is i n E X H I B I T D D 8 A b e c a u s e t h e n e x t a m o u n t a s I h a v e i t - u n f o r tu n a te ly y o u d o n o t a t ta c h th is to a d a t e – t h is p a r t ic u l a r a m o u n t b u t C h a ir th e r e w i l l b e e v i d e n c e t h a t w i ll c l a r i fy f o r u s w h e n th is a m o u n t g o e s o u t a n d th a t i s t h e a m o u n t r e f e r r e d t o a t p a r a g r a p h 4 .3 9 . Te ll u s w h a t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: O h th a t – t h a t w a s t h e a m o u n t I a l s o w a n t e d t o a s k about … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t s e e m s to b e h a n g in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is h a n g i n g C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 24 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t is a c tu a l ly r e l a t e d t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s Vil jo e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e w i ll g o i n t o d e t a il … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : About when those – that – that reference to A s s e t M a n a g e m e n t a n d Fi n a n c i a l S e r v i c e s C C … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s h e r C C . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e w il l g e t th a t c l a r i ty. I t is n o t a v a i l a b l e here … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a . B u t i f w e c a n h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e o n i t W h a t p a y m e n t a n d in - w h a t a m o u n t w a s m a d e a n d t o w h o m a t p a r a g r a p h 4 .3 9 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e a m o u n t is n i n e m il li o n t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e t o A s s e t M a n a g e m e n t a n d F in a n c i a l S e r v ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Th a n k y o u a n d C h a ir j u s t b e c a u s e i t m a y b e u s e fu l f o r t h e r e c o r d t h o s e p a y m e n ts o c c u r r e d t o As s e t M a n a g e m e n t a n d Fi n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s . T h i s is e v i d e n c e to c o m e . Just so that it is c o n ta in e d h e r e . O n 1 M a y 2 0 1 5 , 7 M a y 2 0 1 5 a n d 6 S e p te m b e r - s o r r y – those are the incorrect ones. Those are on the slips. L e t m e j u s t g e t it r ig h t . 8 M a y 2 0 1 5 , 11 M a y 2 0 1 5 a n d 16 September 2015 … Page 25 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h o s e to t a l - a s I h a v e i t f r o m y o u r a ff id a v i t M s Tl a ts a n a - n i n e m il li o n . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n l e t u s m o v e to t h e n e x t p a y m e n t o u t . I h a v e th a t a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 8 a t p a r a g r a p h 4 .4 3 . W h a t w a s t h a t amount and when was it paid? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : On 21 September 2015 500 000 was p a i d t o m a n a g e m e n t c o n s u lt i n g . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d – d id y o u u n d e r s ta n d m a n a g e m e n t c o n s u l t in g to b e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I d i d n o t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e t h e n m o v e t o … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y – b u t d i d y o u r a is e a n y is s u e s a b o u t th is m o n e y w i t h e it h e r th e a c c o u n t a n t o r M r v a n W y k ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. T h e r e w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o c h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Had – had you reached a point where you had d e c i d e d y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e a s k i n g a n y q u e s t io n s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e I w a s a s k i n g – I w a s t a lk i n g t o o m u c h . I w a s a s k in g l o ts o f q u e s t io n s t o o m u c h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A c c o r d i n g to t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u h a d r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e y o u h a d d e c id e d Page 26 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 not to ask anything? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. I ju s t d e c id e d t o s t o p . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d fo r th e c h r o n o lo g y ’s p u r p o s e s b y th is s t a g e y o u h a d r e c e iv e d t h a t R 5 0 0 0 0 0 p a y m e n t . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f w e t h e n g o o v e r t o p a g e 1 9 a n d 10 if y o u c o u ld i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 4 4 . T h a t i s th e n e x t p a y m e n t o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t - a s I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r a ff i d a v i t. W h e n w a s t h a t p a y m e n t m a d e , in w h a t a m o u n t a n d t o w h o m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : R 5 m i ll i o n w a s m a d e t o N e o S o lu t io n s o n 11 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i n q u ir i e s d id y o u m a k e a b o u t t h a t – if any? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I i n q u ir e d a n d i t w a s s a i d t h a t i t is fo r the cameras. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m o r e c a m e r a s ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C a m e r a s w e r e – w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e 1 4 . 9 m i ll io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 4 .9 m il li o n w a s th e to t a l a m o u n t th a t w a s g o i n g t o b e p a id f o r c a m e r a s . I s t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e t o ld ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t i n r e g a r d t o th e fi v e m il li o n a t 4 . 4 4 ? Page 27 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a b o u t t h a t ? O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t – b u t t h e t o ta l – a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h e r e i s th is p a y m e n t o f fi v e m i ll io n t o N e o S o lu t io n s f o r w h ic h t h e e x p la n a ti o n o f s e c u r it y c a m e r a s i s g iv e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e h a d a p r e v i o u s e x p l a n a t io n o f a n o t h e r fi v e m i ll io n to t h a t e ffe c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n th e r e w il l b e a s u b s e q u e n t o n e o f 4 .9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t is w h y M s Tl a ts a n a s a y s t h e t o t a l b e i n g p a i d f o r s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s w a s 1 4 . 9 . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e fiv e p l u s t h e f iv e p lu s t h e 4 . 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e n M s T l a t s a n a 1 4 .9 i n t o t a l o v e r t h is p e r i o d w a s g o i n g t o g o fo r s e c u r i t y c a m e r a s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o g a v e y o u t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n ? Page 28 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r v a n W y k C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m g o in g t o a s k y o u a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h i s m o n e y fl o w i n a n d o u t a b o u t a n y d o c u m e n t a r y r e c o r d s r e la t e d to t h e s e p a y m e n t s . S o j u s t b e a r t h a t i n m i n d . I w o u ld l ik e t o fi n is h th e m a n d t h e n w e w il l g o b a c k t o t h a t q u e s ti o n b u t a t p a g e 1 9 p a r a g r a p h 4 . 4 6 y o u in d i c a t e d w h a t e l s e h a p p e n e d o n th a t d a y o f 11 N o v e m b e r i n r e la t io n t o payments. What was that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : On the same day of – of 11 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 M r K a li s i lir a a t t e m p t – a t te m p t e d t o tr a n s f e r R 5 10 m il li o n i n to N e o S o lu t io n s a n d t h e b a n k r e v e r s e d t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d id t h e y d o s o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e t h e b a n k n e e d e d t o c o n fi r m t h e c o r r e c tn e s s o f – o f th is tr a n s a c ti o n a n d th e y w e r e tr y in g t o g e t h o l d o f m e . T h e y d i d n o t f in d m e o n l i n e a n d t h e y d i d n o t fi n d M s P h ir i to c o n fir m t h is tr a n s a c t io n a n d th e n th e y r e v e r s e d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w – h o w d i d th e y tr y t o fi n d y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B y c a l li n g m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id t h e y m a k e c o n ta c t w i t h y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 Ye s . T h e y tr i e d t o g e t h o l d o f m e . T h e y d id n o t f in d m e – g e t m e o n l in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h s o r r y. O n li n e y o u m e a n o n t h e c a ll ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O n t h e c a ll y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o d id y o u g o b a c k t o t h e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , I d i d n o t g o b a c k t o th e m . Yo u c a n n o t c a l l – y o u c a n n o t g o th r o u g h i f y o u c a ll th e b a n k o n th e – o n Page 29 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h a t d i a l li n e . Yo u c a n n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h o w d i d y o u k n o w t h e y w e r e tr y in g t o g e t hold of you then? M S B A B A D I S Y B L T L AT S A N A : A f t e r – t h e y c a l le d m e t h e f o l lo w in g d a y. T h e y to l d m e th a t w e t r i e d t o c o n ta c t y o u . W e d i d n o t f in d y o u o n li n e a n d t h e n w e c a ll e d M s P h ir i … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d s h e to o – s h e w a s n o t o n li n e . T h o u g h a t a la t e r s t a g e t h e y s a i d t h e y m a n a g e d t o g e t h o l d o f h e r. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d s h e s a y to t h e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ms P h ir i t o l d t h e b a n k th a t s h e d o e s not know anything about Koreneka. She does not know anything about fi v e m il li o n . She does not even have that amount of money in his a c c o u n t . S h e is ju s t a m e r e t e a c h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t w h a t t h e b a n k r e p o r t e d t o y o u a s h a v i n g b e e n s a i d b y h e r t o th e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is w h a t t h e b a n k t o l d me. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I – c a n I ju s t g e t t h i s r i g h t . On 11 N o v e m b e r t h e r e is a f ir s t p a y m e n t o f fi v e m i lli o n th a t s u c c e s s f u lly g o e s o u t o f th e a c c o u n t to N e o S o l u t i o n s . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u g e t a n S M S n o t i fi c a t io n o f t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I d i d C h a ir. Page 30 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u m a k e i n q u ir i e s a b o u t th a t p a y m e n t o n that day? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d i d n o t m a k e in q u ir i e s b e c a u s e M r v a n W y k h a s a lr e a d y m e n t io n e d th a t t h e r e is g o i n g to b e m o n e y a m o u n t in g to t h i s f o r th e p u r p o s e o f s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ah. S o I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d th a t p r e v i o u s ly. H e h a d t o l d y o u t h a t b e f o r e th is 11 N o v e m b e r p a y m e n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o y o u d i d n o t h a v e r e a s o n t h e n t o q u e r y. It w a s i n y o u r m i n d p a r t o f t h e s e c u r i ty c a m e r a p a y m e n ts ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o . N o t – n o t b e fo r e - n o t b e f o r e w a i t . N o t b e fo r e . A f te r t h i s tr a n s a c t io n w e n t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n s a i d B a b a d i t h i s m o n e y i s f o r t h e s e c u r it y c a m e r a s a n d t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a n o t h e r a m o u n t t h a t is g o i n g t o g o o u t fr o m t h e c o m p a n y b e c a u s e w e n e e d t o in s ta ll t h e s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s . T h e y a r e n o t th e r e i n th e – in t h e a i r p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I j u s t c la r i f y t h e n d o e s h e p h o n e y o u t o t e ll y o u t h i s o r d o y o u fo ll o w u p w it h h i m a f t e r y o u g e t t h e S M S 20 n o t i fic a ti o n o f th e fi r s t f iv e m il li o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I c a l l e d h i m a f t e r – a f te r t h is fir s t fi v e m il li o n h a s g o n e o u t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h a t is w h a t h e s a i d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e s a i d it i s fo r s e c u r i t y c a m e r a s a n d t h e r e is Page 31 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 g o i n g t o b e a s e c o n d p a y m e n t a s w e ll ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . T h e n t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n s w i t h t h e b a n k on that day? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e b a n k r e v e r s e d t h e tr a n s a c t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t r e a s o n w e r e y o u g iv e n fo r t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t fi n d a n y o n e o f u s fr o m – o n th e p h o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d id t h e y t e ll y o u th a t ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e v e r y s a m e d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e p r e v io u s ly y o u s a i d i t w a s t h e n e x t d a y th a t t h e y c o n t a c t e d y o u . I a m t r y i n g t o g e t t h i s c le a r a s t o w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g o n th e 11 t h a n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g o n t h e 1 2 t h . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C a n I – c a n I g o b a c k to m y – m y s t a te m e n t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d r e fr e s h m y m i n d ? Ye s , y e s C h a ir. O n fo u r p o i n t – i t s a y s : “The following day a payment of 4.9 …” 20 Ye s . I f I r e m e m b e r w e ll I th i n k t h e y t o ld m e th e f o l l o w i n g d a y b e c a u s e t h a t d a y t h e y d i d n o t f i n d – fi n d m e . I w a s – I w a s i n Br i ts … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H u h - u h . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n e t w o r k t h e r e – I r e m e m b e r i f I r e fr e s h my m e m o r y r i g h t - t h e n e tw o r k w a s n o t g o o d t h a t d a y a n d I w a s i n M a fi k e n g t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y. I a r r i v e d l a te t h a t v e r y d a y. Page 32 of 172 Ye s 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C h a ir o n 1 2 N o v e m b e r t h a t i s w h e n n o w t h e b a n k i n fo r m e d m e t h a t th e y tr i e d to c a ll m e a n d t h a t is w h e n t h e y m a d e a n o t h e r tr a n s a c t io n o f 4 . 9 m il li o n o n th e 1 2 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t r e a s o n w e r e y o u g iv e n b y t h e b a n k fo r t h e m t r y i n g t o c o n ta c t y o u o n t h e 11 t h ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e y w a n t e d c o n f ir m a ti o n o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e s e c o n d fi v e m i ll i o n o r b o t h – w e ll th e fir s t tr a n s a c t io n a n d th e a t t e m p t e d s e c o n d tr a n s a c ti o n ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Of th e f ir s t – of the second tr a n s a c ti o n f o r t h e – fo r t h e s a m e d a y b e c a u s e i t – it w a s g o i n g t o m e a n t h a t o n t h a t d a y 1 0 m i ll io n w a s g o i n g to g o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O u t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y is 1 0 m i lli o n a w o r r y a n d 4 . 9 m il li o n t h e n e x t d a y w a s n o t a w o r r y f o r – f o r th e b a n k ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I g a v e t h e b a n k a n e x p l a n a t i o n a c c o r d i n g to M r v a n W y k t h a t Mr v a n W y k s a y s t h e r e h a s t o b e s e c u r it y c a m e r a s a t th e a i r p o r t a n d n o w t h o s e m o n ie s a r e g o i n g t o b e p a i d i n t o 20 N e o S o l u ti o n s . T h a t a m o u n t is g o i n g t o b e 1 4 – it w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e 1 5 m i ll io n a n d th e n t h e y m a d e 1 4 .9 m i ll io n f o r t h e c a m e r a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e b a n k s c o n c e r n – if I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y – is t h a t o n t h e 11 t h f iv e m i ll io n w e n t o u t a n d t h e n a f u r t h e r fi v e m i ll io n w a s a t te m p t e d to b e t a k e n o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t . C o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 33 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e fo ll o w i n g d a y – 1 2 N o v e m b e r – t h e b a n k m a d e c o n t a c t w i th y o u . C o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W a i t . C a n I g o t h r o u g h th is ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h e – t h e b a n k c a l l e d m e th e f o ll o w i n g d a y a n d I c o n f ir m e d t h a t i t is o k a y th a t th e 4 . 9 c a n – c a n b e p a i d o u t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t i s b e c a u s e o f y o u r c o n fir m a t io n th a t t h e y t h e n d id n o t t a k e is s u e w it h th e 4 . 9 g o i n g o u t o n 1 2 N o v e m b e r. 10 C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And as I understand your testimony you gave t h e m t h e e x p la n a ti o n t h a t M r v a n W y k h a d g iv e n y o u t h a t i t r e l a t e d t o m o r e s e c u r it y c a m e r a s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M s T l a ts a n a I s a i d I w o u ld c o m e t o t h e q u e s ti o n a b o u t d o c u m e n t a r y p r o o f f o r a n y o f t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s . In t h is p e r i o d – r e m e m b e r t h e fir s t tr a n s a c t io n g o e s o u t j u s t a f te r y o u r r e c e i p t o f t h e 8 . 5 m i ll io n o n 6 M a y. Yo u a lr e a d y s t a r t h a v i n g m o n e y g o 20 out of your account on 7 May and we have now progressed to 1 2 N o v e m b e r i n y o u r t e s t i m o n y. W h a t in q u ir ie s d id y o u m a k e a b o u t i n v o ic e s - p r o o f o f a n y o f t h e s e d e a li n g s w i th y o u r b u s i n e s s a t t h i s t i m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I w a s n o t a ll o w e d to a s k a n d I n e e d e d to h o ld m e e ti n g s w i th th e m s o th a t I c a n s e e t h e r e p o r t a n d th e Page 34 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 in v o ic e s a n d t h e y w e r e j u s t n o t r e a d y – t h e y w e r e j u s t r e l u c t a n t to g iv e m e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n o f – o f th e i n v o ic e s fo r e v e r y tr a n s a c t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u r e a li s e th a t t h is w a s n o t a n o r m a l w a y o f r u n n in g a b u s in e s s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t w h a t s t a g e d id y o u r e a l is e t h i s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A f t e r I s p o k e t o my – to m y s p i r i t u a l f a t h e r a n d h e s a id r e c o r d t h e s e p e o p l e b e c a u s e t h e s e p e o p le I t h i n k t h e ir i n te n ti o n is ju s t t o p u t y o u i n t o tr o u b l e … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : With a ll t h e s e m o n ie s . Record everything that they are saying. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t is w h e n n o w I b e g a n to r e c o r d e v e r y tr a n s - e v e r y c o n v e r s a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d i d y o u n o t d e c i d e l o o k t h i s is m y c o m p a n y - th is is m y c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n . I t h a s b e e n h ij a c k e d b y o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e 20 n o t t h e r e w h e n I c a m e u p w i th t h i s w h o l e i d e a a n d th e y a r e d o in g a l l k in d s o f t h i n g s t h a t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n in g a t t h e a ir p o r t . I j u s t h e a r w h a t I a m to l d . W h e n I a s k q u e s ti o n s I a m t o l d to r e l a x n o t to a s k q u e s ti o n s . I m u s t s t o p th e m c o n t in u in g t o b e in v o lv e d i n my b u s in e s s . y o u n o t t a k e t h a t a t t i tu d e ? Page 35 of 172 Why did 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir t h a t w a s … CHAIRPERSON: In other words why did you not decide I am not going t o h a v e a n y f u r t h e r d e a li n g s w i t h Mr v a n W y k ? H e is n o t g o o d fo r m y c o m p a n y. f u r th e r I am not going to have any dealings with M r K a l is i lir a . H e i s n o t g o o d f o r m y b u s i n e s s . Th e y a r e n o w i n c h a r g e o f t h i s b u s in e s s . I a m – I a m n o t h in g i n th i s b u s i n e s s a n y m o r e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir t h a t w a s – t h a t w a s m y c o n c e r n a n d m y t o r t u r e t h a t I d o n o t k n o w w h a t i s g o i n g o n a n d n o b o d y is s a y in g a n y th in g f o r m e a n d w h a t is i t t h a t I – C h a ir I th in k I w a s - I w a s 10 in a c o n f u s e d s t a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A p a r t fr o m s e e k i n g a d v i c e fr o m y o u r s p ir i tu a l a d v is o r d i d y o u n o t th in k o f s e e i n g a la w y e r o r s e e in g s o m e o t h e r o r g a n is a t i o n s t h a t m a y b e s u p p o r t o r h e l p b u s i n e s s p e o p l e p a r t ic u l a r ly w o m e n – y o u know – business people? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir i t d id n o t c o m e in t o m y m i n d n o t – n o t b y t h e n . Yo u k n o w – I d i d n o t k n o w w h o t o t a l k t o . I w a s j u s t – I w a s fr u s t r a t e d C h a ir a n d y o u c a n i m a g i n e n o w y o u a r e h o l d i n g – I a m h o l d i n g th is k i n d o f b u s i n e s s a n d t h e n th e n e x t t h i n g n o w I a m j u m p in g – you know – I was – I was not at - I do not know what to say to that 20 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I h a v e g o t t o l o o k a t a ll a n g l e s o f t h e s t o r y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w il l a s k y o u th e q u e s t io n . W h a t w o u l d y o u s a y i f s o m e b o d y s a i d th e r e a s o n w h y y o u m i g h t – y o u c o n t in u e to h a v e d e a li n g s w i th t h e m – w i t h M r v a n W y k a n d Mr K a lis il ir a – is t h a t y o u Page 36 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 c o n ti n u e d t o s t a n d a c h a n c e o f g e t t in g m o n e y a s w e l l a n d b i g m o n e y ? Yo u h a d a l r e a d y g o t a b o u t R 5 0 0 0 0 0 t h e r e f o r e t h a t is w h a t m a d e y o u t o a c c e p t t h is b u lly i n g th a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t f r o m M r v a n W y k a n d t h a t i t is w h a t m a d e y o u to l e r a t e a l l t h e s e t h in g s t h a t y o u d i d n o t l ik e b e i n g d o n e i n y o u r c o m p a n y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a i r I w a s r e l a x e d w i t h t h a t b y th e n b e c a u s e fo r w a r d – b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o – m y – my s tr o n g h o l d b y t h e n w a s l e t M r v a n W y k b e te ll in g m e b e c a u s e th is th i n g I c a n s e e t h a t i t is n o t g o in g o k a y. 10 L e t h i m b e s a y i n g s o m e th in g t h a t w i ll s u r e l y in c r i m i n a t e h i m t h a t n o w h e is – h e is d o i n g th e s e m o n ie s b e c a u s e I w a s j u s t g o in g a l o n e w i t h th is tr y in g t o tr a p h i m b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t it t o b e h a r d o n h i m t o i n d i c a t e th a t I a m n o t h a p p y. I w a s j u s t g o i n g w i t h h i m b e in g u n d e r g r o u n d ju s t fo r m e t o e n d i t u p g e t ti n g in f o r m a t io n t h a t w h a t is h e tr y in g t o d o w i t h a l l t h e s e m o n i e s b e c a u s e i f I a s k o f t h e i n v o ic e s I a m n o t b e e n g iv e n i n v o i c e s . I a m n o t b e e n g i v e n a n y i n fo r m a t i o n a n d w h o w o u l d I t a lk t o . It never c a m e i n t o my m i n d t h a t I s h o u ld m a y b e c o n t a c t th e l a w y e r. I w a s j u s t f o o lis h b y th e n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s b u t m y q u e s t io n is w h a t w o u l d y o u s a y i f s o m e b o d y s a i d y o u c o n ti n u e d t o to l e r a t e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e you knew that you stood a chance of making some money in the process. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir it w o u l d n o t – it w o u l d n o t b e – it would not be okay because that was not the idea. The idea was t h is i s th e c o n tr a c t t h a t I h a v e g o t t e n a n d l e t m e j u s t le a v e Mr v a n W y k . Page 37 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 L e t th e m d o th is . L e t th e m p u t th e s e c a m e r a s a n d w h a t e v e r a n d t h e n a ft e r a l l t h e s e w o r k s a r e d o n e a n d t h e n I w i ll – I w il l h a v e a c c e s s i n to m y c o m p a n y b e c a u s e – o k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o fi n is h w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , b e c a u s e th e s e a r e t h e t h i n g s t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e y h a v e t o b e p u t in t o t h e a ir p o r t . L e t t h e m ju s t d o a l l th o s e th i n g s a n d t h e n a ft e r t h a t I h a v e g o t to g o my w a y. CHAIRPERSON: T h e R 5 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t h a d b e e n p a i d in t o y o u r o t h e r c o m p a n y ’s a c c o u n t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t o b e fo r a ll i n t e n t s – 10 in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s y o u r s o r w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t f r o m t h a t a m o u n t y o u w o u l d s t il l h a v e to m a y b e p a y s ta ff ? Let me ask the q u e s t io n d i ff e r e n t ly. B y J u n e /J u ly y o u r – y o u r s t a ff w h o w e r e w o r k i n g a t t h e a ir p o r t h a d b e e n w o r k i n g fr o m M a y. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s p a y i n g t h e m ? D i d y o u k n o w w h a t th e y w e r e p a i d , h o w m u c h t h e y w e r e p a id , w h o w a s p a y i n g th e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r K a l is ili r a w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s d o i n g t h e s a la r i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u k n o w h o w m u c h e a c h o n e w a s p a id p e r m o n t h 20 o r p e r w e e k o r w h a t e v e r th e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e – t h e s t a ff s ig n e d t h e – t h e c o n tr a c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o n tr a c ts ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t M r K a lis il ir a w a s t h e o n e w h o w a s p a y in g t h e m ? Page 38 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h e a m o u n t o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t w a s p a i d i n t o y o u r a c c o u n t w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e in v o l v e d i n a n y e x p e n s e s o f th e c o m p a n y – o f th e c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A c c o r d in g t o M r v a n W y k h e s a id i t i s – t h a t is p a r t p o r ti o n o f m y – m y s h a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r d i v i d e n d s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M y d iv i d e n d s , th a n k y o u s ir. Thank y o u C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y ; a n d t h e n l e t m e a ls o a s k y o u t h i s . Who w a s t h e o w n e r o f t h e a ir p o r t b u i ld in g i n t h e tw o a ir p o r t s a s f a r a s y o u k n o w – a s fa r a s y o u k n e w a t th e ti m e y o u r b u s in e s s s ta r t e d – w h e n y o u s ta r t e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e a ir p o r ts b e lo n g s t o – t o t h e N o r th W e s t G o v e r n m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e N o r th W e s t G o v e r n m e n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And for – in terms of the arrangement as you u n d e r s t o o d i t w e r e y o u s u p p o s e d to p a y a n y r e n t f o r w o r k in g t h e r e o r 20 not or what was the position? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o I w a s n o t w o r k i n g CHAIRPERSON: F o r y o u r c o m p a n y. W h e r e y o u r s t a ff w o r k in g t h e r e and so on? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o t h e – t h e s t a ff – th e g r o u n d h a n d l in g s t a ff w e r e p a i d b y K o r e n e k a b u t th e y w e r e t h e S A E x p r e s s Page 39 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s t a ff . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e S A E x p r e s s s t a ff? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e n o t K o r e n e k a s t a ff ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : u n i fo r m o f S A E x p r e s s . N o t h e y w e r e – t h e y w e r e p u t in Th e y w e r e S A E x p r e s s s ta ff b u t n o w t h e ir – t h e ir s a l a r ie s w e r e c o m i n g f r o m K o r e n e k a b e c a u s e a c c o r d i n g t o – to t h is a g r e e m e n t a l l t h e ir m o n i e s t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o b e p a i d b a c k in t o K o r e n e k a . S A E x p r e s s w a s g o i n g t o p a y b a c k f o r t h e m o n e y th a t th e y 10 h a v e – fo r t h e s a l a r i e s o f t h e g r o u n d h a n d l in g s t a ff o n l y. CHAIRPERSON: N o w l e t m e tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d th a t . Koreneka had e m p l o y e d s ta ff w h o w e r e w o r k i n g a t t h e a ir p o r t s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f i t ’s g r o u n d h a n d l in g a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A Express. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Those employees of Koroneka they wore SA Express u n i fo r ms , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But they were not SA Express employees? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No they were not SA Express employees in t e r m s o f th e c o n t r a c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s a n d t h e y w e r e p a id – t h e ir s a l a r ie s w e r e p a id Page 40 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 by Koroneka? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d w h y w e r e th e y n o t w e a r i n g a K o r o n e k a u n i fo r m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e e x p l a n a t io n w a s , t h e y a r e d o in g t h e S A E x p r e s s w o r k o f g r o u n d h a n d l in g . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t, t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t f o r c l a r if ic a ti o n p u r p o s e s i n r e la t io n t o t h i s l a t e s t d e b a t e , i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t th is a s p e c t w a s g o v e r n e d b y t h e K o r o n e k a a g r e e m e n t , C h a ir, i t ’s a n a s p e c t 10 t h a t c o m e s u p – y o u ’ ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 9 6 a n d w h a t it s e e m s t o e n v i s a g e t h e r e , a lb e it – le t ’s b e c le a r o n M s T l a t s a n a ’s e v i d e n c e a t t h is s t a g e s h e s t il l h a s n ’ t s e e n t h e a g r e e m e n t b u t a t l e a s t th is a s p e c t o f i t , w h a t s h e w a s t o l d s e e m s to b e c o n s is t e n t . I f w e g o t o p a g e 9 6 o f D D 8 ( A) , C h a ir y o u ’l l s e e t h e r e , th e r e ’s a h e a d i n g c l a u s e 1 2 , P e r s o n n e l a n d w h a t it s e e m s t o e n v is a g e th e r e , t h e h a n d li n g c o m p a n y, w h e n i t ’s r e fe r r e d to h e r e a s a r e f e r e n c e t o K o r o n e k a a n d w h e n th e r e ’s a r e fe r e n c e t o t h e c a r r i e r, t h a t’s a r e fe r e n c e t o S o u th A f r i c a n E x p r e s s . 1 2 . 1 s e e ms t o s a y t h a t t h e h a n d l i n g c o m p a n y s h a l l r e c r u i t s u i t a b l e p e r s o n n e l r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e p r o v i s i o n o f s e r v ic e s w h i c h s h a l l c o n s i s t o f t h r e e c u s to m e r 20 s e r v ic e a g e n t s a n d t h r e e g e n e r a l w o r k e r s , t h e n 1 2 . 2 s a y s , “ T h e a b o v e m e n t io n e d p e r s o n n e l s h a l l , w i t h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f t h e c a r r i e r, s o t h a t ’s S A E x p r e s s , r e c e i v e g r o u n d h a n d i n g tr a i n i n g to e n a b l e th e m t o f u l ly d is c h a r g e t h e ir f u n c ti o n s a n d t h e n o v e r th e p a g e th e y e v e n d e a l w i t h u n i f o r m w h ic h is 1 2 . 3 , t h e c a r r ie r, th a t ’s S A E x p r e s s , s h a ll p r o v i d e t h e p e r s o n n e l Page 41 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 with uniform which shall be issued once a year in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e S A E x p r e s s u n i fo r m p o l ic y ” . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So that part seems at least to be consistent w i t h t h e te x t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s i t’s ju s t s tr a n g e t h a t e m p lo y e e s e m p l o y e d b y o n e c o m p a n y s h o u ld w e a r t h e u n i f o r m o f a n o t h e r c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: 10 Indeed. I m e a n i f y o u g o t h e r e a n d y o u h a v e a p r o b le m w i t h t h a t e m p l o y e e y o u t h i n k … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w o u ld g o t o S o u t h A f r i c a n Ex p r e s s , in d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n th e y te ll y o u t h a t p e r s o n is n o t o u r employee. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d , w e ll i n d u e c o u r s e w e m a y b e a b l e to p r o b e th a t w i t h M r v a n W y k , i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms T la ts a n a if w e c o u l d t h e n g o b a c k t o p a g e 2 0 , o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t in D D 8 ( A) , y o u ’v e a c t u a ll y c o v e r e d a lr e a d y in y o u r 20 e v i d e n c e , p a r a g r a p h 4 . 4 9 a n d 4 .5 0 o t h a t p a g e , w h e r e I w o u l d lik e to p ic k i t u p is a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 5 1 . N o w w h a t I w a n t t o m a k e c l e a r b e f o r e a s k in g t h e q u e s ti o n , i s a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h is p a r a g r a p h , th is is n o t in f o r m a ti o n y o u h a d a t t h e t i m e o f t h e p a y m e n ts t o N e o S o l u ti o n s , i s t h a t r ig h t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Correct. Page 42 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pl e a s e t e ll u s w h a t y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly w e r e a b l e t o e s ta b lis h a b o u t t h e p a y m e n ts t o N e o S o l u ti o n s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I e s t a b lis h e d th a t th e m o n e y t h a t was sent to Neo Solutions, Mr van Wyk got R300 000 cash payment on t h e 4 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d t h e n 4 m ill i o n w a s p a i d t o B a ts o m i I n v e s t m e n t H o ld i n g s o n th e 11 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d t h e n 3 m il li o n w a s p a id t o B a ts o m i I n v e s t m e n t o n t h e 2 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , 1 .4 m i ll io n w a s p a i d t o B a ts o m i I n v e s t m e n t o n th e 1 0 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d 1 .2 m i ll io n w a s a p a y m e n t to B a t s o m i I n v e s t m e n t H o ld i n g o n th e 10 29th of March 2016. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d K o r o n e k a h a v e a n y d e a l in g s w i t h B a ts o m i Investments? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No A n d h o w d o y o u k n o w th a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a t ’s n o w w h e n I h a v e a p p o i n t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t e a ms t o a s s is t m e t o tr a c e w h e r e d i d a ll th is m o n i e s w e n t to . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d t h e y e s t a b l is h a b o u t a n y l i n k s b e t w e e n M r v a n W y k a n d B a ts o m i i n v e s t m e n t s , i f y o u w a n t a r e c o r d f o r 20 t h a t i t ’s a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 5 2 a t p a g e 2 1 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , w h a t w e e s t a b l is h e d is t h a t B a ts o m i I n v e s t m e n t is a c o m p a n y t h a t i s r e g is t e r e d o n th e 11 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e d i r e c to r f o r t h e c o m p a n y i t ’s Si p h o Vi a - P h ir i w h o i s Mr s P h ir i’s s o n a n d w h o is Mr B r i a n v a n W y k ’s l i fe p a r tn e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Can I just ask M s Tlatsana, I accept that you Page 43 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 o n ly c a m e to th is i n f o r m a ti o n la t e r r i g h t b u t w h a t I u n d e r s ta n d y o u w e r e t o l d a t t h e t i m e o f th e N e o S o l u t i o n s p a y m e n ts w a s t h a t i t w a s f o r s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. D o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e b u s i n e s s is o f B a ts o m i Investments? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o , n o , n o C h a ir. D o n ’ t k n o w b u t t h e t o t a l a m o u n t o f 9 . 9 m i ll io n t h a t w e n t – w e ll o f t h e 1 4 . 9 m il li o n t h a t w a s f o r s e c u r i t y c a m e r a s , a s I 10 u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e 9 .9 m i ll i o n w e n t t o N e o S o l u ti o n s , is t h a t correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. I f w e t o t a l u p a n d C h a ir I h a v e d o n e t h is i n a d v a n c e o f t o d a y, b e c a u s e m y m e n ta l a r i t h m e tic w o u l d n o t s e r v e m e w e ll , i f w e c a lc u l a t e a n d a d d u p a l l t h o s e a m o u n ts a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 5 1 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t th e y t o t a l t h e f u ll 9 . 9 m i ll io n d o n ’t t h e y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n y o u e s t a b li s h e d t h a t w e n t o u t o f N e o S o l u ti o n s t o a n o th e r c o m p a n y c a l le d 20 B a ts o m i In v e s t m e n t s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : p r o v i d in g s e c u r i ty C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o i f N e o S o lu t io n s w a s a l e g i t i m a te c o m p a n y cameras th e y would th e n have r e c e iv e d no r e m u n e r a t io n w h a ts o e v e r f o r p r o v i d in g t h e s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s , i s t h a t correct? Page 44 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o m e a g a i n w it h y o u r q u e s ti o n . O k a y N e o S o l u ti o n s , a c c o r d i n g t o M r v a n W y k g o t 9 . 9 m il li o n t o p u t s e c u r i t y c a m e r a s a t t h e a i r p o r ts , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t 9 . 9 m il li o n w a s p a i d o u t f r o m N e o S o lu t io n s ’ a c c o u n t , a c c o r d i n g to y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s , c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o i t s e e m s – I’ m p u t t in g i t t o y o u f o r y o u r c o m m e n t in c a s e y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s w e n t t h e r e a t a l l , i f 9 . 9 m i ll io n 10 c o m e s i n a n d 9 . 9 m i lli o n g o e s o u t t h e n N e o S o lu t io n s is le f t w i t h n o m o n e y f o r t h e s e c u r i ty c a m e r a s th a t t h e y w e r e a ll e g e d l y p u t t in g u p a t t h e a ir p o r ts c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: C o r r e c t C h a ir. Thank you. D i d w e – e a r l i e r o n , I t h in k i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u d i d m e n ti o n w h o o w n e d N e o S o l u ti o n s , i s t h a t r ig h t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: M r Viv i e n N a t a s a n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s i n d e e d , s h e d o e s d o t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d h e w i ll b e g iv i n g e v id e n c e in t h e c o u r s e o f n e x t w e e k to t h e C o m m i s s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w a s h e th e o n ly d ir e c t o r t h e r e , d o w e k n o w, ju s t f o r i n te r e s t s a k e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s t h e n m o v e , M s Tl a ts a n a t o D e c e m b e r Page 45 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 2 0 1 5 b e c a u s e i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 y o u to o k s t e p s in r e l a ti o n t o y o u r b a n k account, can you tell us what those were? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w e n t t o th e b a n k a n d s t o p p e d th e access – Mr Calasiera(?)to have access into the account. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d id y o u d o t h a t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e I c o u l d – w a i t, w a it , w h e r e is it h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s T la ts a n a I’ v e a c t u a l ly n o t f o u n d t h a t d e t a i l i n t h is a ff id a v i t , I a s k y o u o f i t o n t h e b a s i s o f w h a t y o u ’v e t o l d 10 t h e C o m m is s i o n in y o u r p r e v i o u s i n t e r a c ti o n s w i th t h e m t h a t y o u t o o k s t e p s i n D e c e m b e r a n d t h a t i s a ls o r e f e r e n c e d i n y o u r r e c o r d in g i n e a r ly J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 t h a t y o u ’v e p r o v i d e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n b u t p l e a s e r e c o u n t f o r u s t o th e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n w h e th e r y o u – w h a t y o u d i d i n r e l a ti o n t o 2 0 1 5 , if a t a ll , i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r b a n k a c c o u n t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W h a t I r e m e m b e r w it h t h e b a n k a c c o u n t I s to p p e d th e a c c e s s o f M r C a l a s i e r a i n to t h e b a n k a c c o u n t b e c a u s e I w e n t to t h e b a n k a n d c h a n g e d t h e c o d e a n d I p u t m y p h o n e f o r t h e O T P a n d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Th is w a s n o w i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Yo u s e e m – I j u s t w a n t to b e c l e a r a b o u t y o u r e v i d e n c e a r e y o u c l e a r t h a t , th a t h a p p e n e d in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 o r a r e y o u n o t c e r ta i n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a in . L e t m e j u s t a s s is t t o l o c a te y o u in t ie in Page 46 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t e r m s o f y o u r te s t i m o n y t h u s f a r, y o u h a v e y o u r d is c u s s i o n w i th y o u r s p i r i t u a l l e a d e r i n J u n e /J u l y 2 0 1 5 , t h a t’s w h e n y o u r s u s p i c i o n s a b o u t y o u r c o m p a n y b e i n g h i ja c k e d fir s t r e a l ly a r is e , y o u t h e n s e e a s e r i e s o f p a y m e n t s f o r th e r e m a i n d e r o f 2 0 1 5 c o m i n g o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t, t h e l a s t o f t h o s e t h a t w e l o o k e d a t w a s o n th e 1 2 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d th e n ju s t t o a s s i s t y o u i n t i m e , y o u r r e c o r d i n g t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d to t h e C o m m i s s i o n o f y o u c o n v e r s a t io n i n t h e S p u r w i t h M r v a n W y k I o n t h e 20th of January 2016. S o c a n I t h e n h a v e y o u r b e s t r e c o ll e c ti o n o f w h e n y o u d e n i e d Mr C a l a s i e r a a c c e s s t o th e b a n k a c c o u n t , w a s i t 10 b e f o r e th e S p u r c o n v e r s a t io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i t w a s b e fo r e th e S p u r c o n v e r s a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So towards the end of 2015 then? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I s h o u l d t h in k – o r b e g in n i n g o f 2016. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : F in e s o m e w h e r e th e r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J a s o m e w h e r e th e r e . B u t b e f o r e t h e Sp u r c o n v e r s a ti o n a n d a f te r t h e l a s t p a y m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e r e c o r d e d in y o u r a ffi d a v i t g o in g o u t 20 w h ic h i s t h e 1 2 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , c a n w e w o r k w it h th a t ti m e fr a m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o m e a g a in w i t h y o u r q u e s t i o n M s Kate. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m tr y i n g to e s t a b li s h w h e n y o u d e n i e d M r K a lis il ir a a c c e s s t o t h e b a n k a c c o u n t a n d y o u r a ff id a v i t h a s g i v e n u s a d a t e to w o r k w i th , w h ic h i s t h e 1 2 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 is w h e n t h e l a s t Page 47 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 p a y m e n t t h a t y o u r e f e r e n c e i n y o u r a ffi d a v it w e n t o u t t o N e o S o l u ti o n s , correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t t h a t ’s t h e l a s t p a y m e n t th a t went out, correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h a v e a S p u r c o n v e r s a t i o n w it h M r v a n W y k w h i c h w e ’r e g o i n g t o li s te n t o th e r e c o r d i n g s o f s h o r t ly o n t h e 20th of January 2016. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d I ’ m a s k in g w h e t h e r y o u d e n i e d M r K a lis il ir a a c c e s s t o y o u r b a n k a c c o u n t b e t w e e n t h o s e t w o d a t e s , between 12 November 2015 and 20 January 2016? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t y e s , c o r r e c t C h a ir. And you – why did you do that, why did you deny him access? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e I c a m e to r e a li s e th a t m o n e y is g o in g o u t w i t h o u t a n y i n v o ic e , w it h o u t m y k n o w i n g , n o b o d y i s c o n ta c t i n g m e , s o l e t m e j u s t s t o p t h i s b u s i n e s s w i t h h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : le a d - u p 20 to the C o u ld w e t h e n m o v e t o e a r l y 2 0 1 6 i n t h e recording that w e ’r e going to l is t e n to s h o r tl y …( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e t h a t , I m a y h a v e m is s e d s o m e t h in g , I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I g e t i t . B e f o r e y o u d e c i d e d to g o t o t h e b a n k a n d t a k e t h e s t e p s n e c e s s a r y to d e n y Mr K a lis il ir a a c c e s s t o y o u r c o m p a n y ’s a c c o u n t , h a d y o u s p o k e n to M r v a n W y k a b o u t w h a t w a s g o i n g o n o r d i d y o u s p e a k to h i m a f t e r ? Page 48 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: A b o u t d e n y i n g M r K a lis il ir a a c c e s s M y i m p r e s s i o n fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t a t a certain stage, maybe it was in December 2015 at a certain stage you c o n c l u d e d t h a t y o u h a d , h a d e n o u g h o f p a y m e n t t h a t – b e in g m a d e fr o m y o u r C lo s e C o r p o r a ti o n ’s a c c o u n t w i th o u t k n o w i n g – w i t h o u t h a v in g in v o ic e s , w i th o u t k n o w i n g w h a t w a s g o i n g o n , t h a t ’s w h y y o u d e c i d e d t o d e n y M r K a l is i lir a a c c e s s , i s th a t r i g h t a m I r i g h t to u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a lo n g t h o s e l in e s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 CHAIRPERSON: C o r r e c t C h a ir. J a m y q u e s ti o n i s ( in d i s t in c t ) o n c e y o u h a d c o m e to t h is c o n c l u s io n t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o t a k e s t e p s t o p u t a s t o p t o t h is t h i n g , d i d y o u s p e a k t o Mr v a n W y k b e f o r e d e n y in g M r K a l is i li r a a c c e s s t o t h e a c c o u n t o f th e c o m p a n y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d id n ’t s p e a k to h i m b e f o r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a i r. N o C h a ir. A n d y o u d i d n ’ t s p e a k t o Mr K a l is i li r a h i ms e lf b e fo r e d o i n g it ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a i r. D i d y o u o n ly s p e a k t o t h e m a f t e r o r d i d y o u j u s t t a k e a c ti o n a n d l e ft it t o th e m t o c o n t a c t y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t o o k a c t io n a n d t h e y r e a li s e d w h e n t h e y tr i e d t o a c c e s s t h a t th e y h a d b e e n d e n i e d a c c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d t h e n th e y t h e n c o n ta c t e d y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. Page 49 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: L e t ’s t a lk a b o u t Mr v a n W y k , h o w s o o n a ft e r y o u h a d d e n ie d M r K a l is ili r a a c c e s s d i d h e s p e a k t o y o u , a w e e k , a m o n t h , a d a y o r tw o , o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e – s o o n t h e r e a ft e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: When he spoke to you? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: 10 W h e n I d e n ie d h i m a c c e s s . Oh when you denied the accountant access. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s o n th e 3 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r. Ye s C h a ir. O h t h e a c c o u n ta n t w a s t h e o n ly o n e w h o h a d access, Mr van Wyk did not have access did he? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a i r i t w a s th e a c c o u n t a n t . Ja okay and you spoke to Mr van Wyk soon t h e r e a f te r, a f e w d a y s t h e r e a f t e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I t h i n k i t w a s o n t h e 3 r d o f J a n u a r y M r v a n W y k c a l l e d m e t o t e l l m e t h a t M r K a l is ili r a is t e ll in g h i m t h a t h e ’s tr y i n g t o a c c e s s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: A c c e s s t h e a c c o u n t. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ac c e s s t h e a c c o u n t a n d i t’s r e f u s in g . J a w a s h e o f th e t w o , w a s M r v a n W y k th e f ir s t o n e t o c o n t a c t y o u a b o u t t h is ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r b u t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . B u t K a lis il ir a a ls o … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B o t h o f t h e m – it w a s j u s t s e r i e s o f in c o m i n g c a ll s . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, th a n k y o u . Page 50 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, a n d t h e n w e m o v e t o t h e 2 0 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 w h e n y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n – a m e e t i n g , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff i d a v i t w i t h M r v a n W y k , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: C o r r e c t C h a ir. Please tell us how that meeting was a r r a n g e d …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e a ls o le t m e a ls o c la r i fy th is b e f o r e , u p t o n o w, I h a v e n ’ t h e a r d fr o m y o u a n y e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o w h a t y o u r t w o c o m e m b e r s o f t h e C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n m a y h a v e b e e n d o in g w e r e t h e y n o t 10 in v o lv e d in a n y th i n g a s f a r a s y o u w e r e – y o u k n e w a t th a t s t a g e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Th e y w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s th e y w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d C h a ir. Ye s . J a th e y s i g n e d a n d a f te r t h a t y o u n e v e r h a d a n y in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h t h e m i n a n y s e r i o u s w a y i n 2 0 1 5 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r T h a b e n g r e s ig n e d s o m e ti m e in M a y o r b e g in n in g o f J u n e . CHAIRPERSON: 2015? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 CHAIRPERSON: 2015. O h h e w a s n ’ t th e r e fo r a l o n g ti m e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o h e w a s n ’ t t h e r e f o r a l o n g ti m e , i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h e f ir s t p a y m e n t t h a t e n t e r s a n d th e n h e r e s i g n e d . CHAIRPERSON: He resigned. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d d id h e s p e a k t o y o u b e fo r e r e s i g n in g t o s a y h e Page 51 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 was resigning because of A, B, C, D? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s h e w a s a s k in g a b o u t a l l t h is m o n i e s t h a t a r e g o i n g … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: In and out. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I n a n d o u t a n d I e x p l a in e d to h i m t h a t M r v a n W y k s a y s th a t th e y a r e g o i n g t o b e fo r t h e r e p a ir a ti o n o f t h e a ir p o r t , r e f u r b i s h m e n t o f t h e a i r p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 A n d th e n h e ju s t r e s i g n e d s a y s h e ’s n o lo n g e r i n te r e s t e d . CHAIRPERSON: He resigned. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. M r s P h ir i s t a y e d o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Mr s P h ir i s ta y e d o n – M r s P h ir i r e s ig n e d o n t h e 1 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Of 2015? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 Of 2015. Th a t t i m e , t h a t w a s t h e ti m e w h e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Fi n a n c e w a n t e d to m a k e a p a y m e n t t o K o r o n e k a a n d n o w w e w e r e to c o m p l e te t h e d o c u m e n ts w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f F i n a n c e a n d n o w s h e – y e s t h a t w a s th e ti m e w h e n s h e r e s i g n e d . CHAIRPERSON: H o w m u c h w a s t h a t a m o u n t a g a in , w a s it 2 0 m i ll io n rand? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. Page 52 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y s h e r e s ig n e d a s t h e m o n e y w a s a b o u t to c o m e in . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir b e c a u s e s h e d i d n ’ t m e e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f b e i n g a m e m b e r y e s b e c a u s e s h e d id n ’ t d is c lo s e t h a t she is w o r k in g and in the Department of Fi n a n c e tender – Tr e a s u r y …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: W o r k i n g fo r g o v e r n m e n t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir a n d t h e r e w a s a c ir c u la r t h a t w a s i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Fi n a n c e t h a t a n y b o d y th a t is w o r k in g fo r 10 g o v e r n m e n t i t ’s e i t h e r y o u w o r k o r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n ’ t d o b u s i n e s s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e i f y o u d o t h a t th e r e a r e s e r io u s c o n s e q u e n c e s th a t w i ll b e t a k e n a g a i n s t t h o s e w h o d i d n o t d is c l o s e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh so did she resign because that problem arose? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e n o w fr o m Tr e a s u r y t h e y w e r e s a y in g t h a t – b y t h e w a y y o u s h o u l d k n o w t h a t if n o w s h e w i ll b e h e r e i n t h is c o m p a n y w o r k i n g , n o w i t m e a n s t h a t h e r p e n s io n s is g o i n g t o b e t a k e n a w a y fr o m h e r a n d – y e s C h a ir a n d I e x p l a i n e d t h i s t o h e r 20 s h e s a y s , s h e c a n n o t a ff o r d t o l o s e h e r li f e p e n s io n s f o r th is b u s i n e s s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t th e tw o n e v e r g a v e y o u a n y tr o u b le , M r T h a b e n g a n d M r s P h i r i d u r i n g t h e ir ti m e in t h e C lo s e C o r p o r a t io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: T h e y w e r e n o t d o in g a n y t h in g C h a ir. Th e y a r e n o t d o i n g a n y t h i n g , th e ir n a m e s a r e j u s t there. Page 53 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: J a th e y w e r e ju s t t h e r e . Okay thank you. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ms T la t s a n a , M s P h ir i l it i g a t e d a g a in s t y o u i n r e l a ti o n t o h e r r e m o v a l a s a m e m b e r d i d s h e n o t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : She did. What did she say? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S h e s a i d I r e m o v e d h e r il l e g a lly fr o m t h e c o m p a n y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MS BABADI SYBIL A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h a t li t ig a ti o n ? T L AT S A N A : With the o u tc o m e s of t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , w e w e n t to C o u r t a n d t h e o u t c o m e s w e r e , I fa ls e l y r e m o v e d h e r fr o m t h e c o m p a n y a n d s h e s h o u ld be – she should come back. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Did she come back? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 N o n o t y e t. W h e n d i d y o u r e c e i v e t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t case? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S o m e t i m e in 2 0 1 6 , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e n b u t i t ’s s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M s P h ir i ’s v e r s io n o f t h e fa c ts th a t y o u ’v e ju s t r e l a y e d to t h e C h a ir i n d ic a t e t h a t s h e d o e s n o t a c c e p t th a t s h e v o l u n ta r i ly r e s i g n e d fr o m t h e C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n , c o r r e c t ? Page 54 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t’s w h a t s h e s a i d , y e s C h a ir. Subsequent to the resignation though was the d e p a r t m e n t s a t is fi e d t h a t t h e y c o u l d p a y t h e 2 0 m il li o n t o K o r o n e k a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h e m o n e y w a s p a i d i n t o Koroneka. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s it t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h o i n d ic a te d t o y o u t h e y w o u l d n o t p a y i t a s l o n g a s M s P h ir i w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 T h a t is t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t I g o t fr o m t h e Tr e a s u r y D e p a r t m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u r e l a y th a t i n fo r m a t i o n to M s P h ir i ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I d i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t w h a t s t a g e t h e n , d i d y o u le a r n t h a t s h e w a s e m p lo y e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a t io n a s a t e a c h e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t w a s th e ti m e n o w, t h a t I r e a l is e d t h a t s h e ’s b e e n w i t h th e D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Before that time you didn’t know what her normal jo b w a s ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a ir, i t d i d n ’ t b o th e r m e t o a s k . Ye s , b y th e w a y w h e n y o u w e r e t o l d b y M r P h i r i – S o r r y Mr v a n W y k a b o u t – w h e n M r v a n W y k t o ld y o u h e r n a m e a s o n e o f t h e p e o p le t h a t y o u s h o u l d i n c lu d e i n y o u r C lo s e C o r p o r a ti o n , d i d y o u s a y th a t y o u k n e w h e r, y o u k n e w M r s P h ir i b e f o r e th is ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I’ve never – by then I’d never Page 55 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s e e n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Oh you didn’t know her before that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: I’ v e n e v e r k n o w n h e r b e f o r e . A n d w h a t a b o u t Mr T h a b e n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Mr T h a b e n g I j u s t k n e w h i m a s S A B C employee. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w it h y o u r l e a v e I ’d th e n li k e t o m o v e t o th e r e c o r d i n g s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I h a v e i n m i n d t h a t w e c o u l d t a k e th e te a b r e a k a t 11 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: C h a ir w h a t … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . T h a t s h o u l d b e fi n e , in d e e d . J a o k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w e ’r e g o i n g to d o f o r th is p u r p o s e C h a ir, i t ’s m y p r o p o s a l t h a t w e a d o p t t h e f o l l o w i n g a p p r o a c h . The r e c o r d i n g is q u i t e a l o n g r e c o r d i n g i n to t a l a b o u t a n h o u r a n d a h a l f , w h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s d o n e is e x tr a c t e d e x c e r p ts o f i t w h ic h a r e t h e o n e s w h ic h a r e p e r ti n e n t f o r t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e . T h e q u a li t y is n o t i d e a l 20 b u t w e ’ r e h o p i n g t h a t w h e n w e p la y i t , w e w il l b e a b le , w i t h M s Tl a ts a n a ’s a s s is t a n c e t o d e t e r m in e w h a t is b e i n g s a id . It ’s h e r r e c o r d i n g , s h e w a s i n t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n s o w e w ill a s k f o r h e r a s s i s t a n c e o n t h a t . Th e id e a is t o p l a y p o r t io n s a n d t h e n h a v e h e r tr a n s l a t e i n a s e n s e o r t e l l u s w h a t is b e in g s a i d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y th a t ’s fi n e . Page 56 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e ’s a p o in t i n t h a t i n t e r a c ti o n w h e r e i t ’s M s T la t s a n a ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t M r v a n W y k w a s w r i ti n g d o w n o n a p ie c e o f p a p e r c e r t a in h a n d w r i t t e n n o t e s , w e ’v e a lr e a d y s e e n t h o s e n o t e s , i t w a s t h e fi r s t a n n e x u r e to M r N g w e n y a ’s a ffi d a v i t b u t w h a t w e ’v e d o n e f o r t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e is w e h a v e c r e a te d a v e r s io n o f t h a t , t h a t c a n b e p r o j e c t e d o n t h e s c r e e n s s o t h a t w e c a n f o ll o w w h a t is g o i n g o n a s M s Tl a ts a n a w il l e n d e a v o u r i n h e r e v i d e n c e t o e x p la i n to u s w h a t v a r i o u s t h i n g s o n t h a t p a g e m e a n b u t f o r t h o s e o f u s w h o h a v e th e b e n e fi t o f t h e b u n d l e s i n fr o n t o f u s , w e ’ v e a l s o r e p r o d u c e d th e m . S o 10 C h a ir i f w e a ll g o t o D D 8 ( B ) a n d w e t u r n r i g h t a t th e b a c k th e r e t o p a g e 586. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s T la ts a n a d o y o u h a v e t h a t y e t , i t’s 5 8 6 i t should be right towards the back. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c o g n i s e th a t p a g e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. Ye s C h a i r. What is it…(intervention). I ’ m s o r r y m a y b e b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e , M s Tl a ts a n a , y o u d id s a y th a t y o u w e r e a d v is e d b y y o u r s p ir it u a l a d v is o r t o r e c o r d y o u s a i d , t h e s e p e o p le . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. D id y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t to m e a n y o u m u s t r e c o r d c o n v e r s a ti o n s th a t y o u h a d w i t h th e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. Page 57 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d d id y o u g o a l o n g w i t h t h is s u g g e s ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir I d i d . A n d d id y o u t h e n d e c id e d t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o do that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And to that end what did you decide to do to prepared y o u r s e l f t o s t a r t d o i n g t h a t, d i d y o u b u y a n y t h i n g to u s e t o r e c o r d them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 Ye s t h e o th e r r e c o r d i n g s w e r e o n t h e p h o n e b e c a u s e w h e n t h e y w e r e c a ll in g m e , g iv i n g m e i n s tr u c t io n s a n d t h e n t h e o th e r o n e , t h e o n e ( i n d i s t i n c t) i t ’s a d e v i c e – i t ’s a r e c o r d i n g d e v ic e . CHAIRPERSON: I s it s o m e th i n g y o u h a d a n y w a y, w a s i t s o m e t h i n g o n the phone? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o it ’s a r e c o r d i n g d e v i c e - it ’s a r e c o r d in g d e v i c e o n i t’s o w n … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u b u y is s p e c i a l l y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: 20 O h f o r t h is p u r p o s e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s c h a i r. Ye s C h a ir. O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d - I ’l l a s k y o u a b o u t t h a t i n a m o m e n t , le t ’s l o o k a t p a g e 5 8 6 if w e m a y, th a t ’s i n E x h i b i t D D 8 ( B ) , y o u in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u r e c o g n is e d t h i s p a g e , w h a t is i t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a i r t h is is t h e p a g e w h e r e Mr v a n Page 58 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 W y k w a s w r i t in g – w a s ta k i n g n o te s o f w h a t i s t o h a p p e n , w h a t is s u p p o s e d to h a p p e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And if you go over the page to page 587, I ju s t w a n t t o e x p la in , C h a ir, w h a t w e ’v e d o n e , in o r d e r to tr y a n d m a k e i t a b i t c l e a r e r o n th e s c r e e n , w e ’v e b r o k e n t h a t p a g e i n t o t w o p a r ts M s Tl a ts a n a y o u ’ ll s e e a t 5 8 7 t h e r e ’s a s e c ti o n o f t h a t p a g e w h ic h h a s b e e n c u t o u t a n d t h e n i f y o u g o to 5 8 8 t h e r e ’s t h e s o r t o f l a s t t h i r d o f t h e p a g e i f y o u h o l d i t i n t h e la n d s c a p e p o s i ti o n , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a i r. S o w h a t I ’ m g o in g to s u g g e s t i s t h a t w e m o v e b e tw e e n t h o s e tw o in t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v id e n c e a n d y o u c a n in d i c a t e to u s w h e r e w e s h o u l d b e l o o k i n g o n th e p a g e , f o r th e purposes of the evidence. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: O k a y C h a ir. W i th y o u r l e a v e C h a ir. Th a n k y o u – o r m a y b e s h e s h o u l d j u s t te ll u s if s h e ’s a b l e t o b e c a u s e u n d e r s t a n d a t – t h a t t h is w a s i n a m e e ti n g , w h e n t h a t m e e ti n g w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s w h e n d i d y o u m e e t w i t h M r v a n W y k , w h e n h e w r o t e th is d o w n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s o n th e 2 0 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 . And where did you meet? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W e m e t a t S p u r r e s ta u r a n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u ’v e m e n ti o n e d a r e c o r d i n g d e v ic e t h a t y o u p u r c h a s e d , d i d y o u p u r c h a s e i t b e fo r e t h i s m e e ti n g o r p r i o r t o Page 59 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I p u r c h a s e d i t s p e c ia ll y fo r th is m e e ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d id y o u d o w i t h i t , w h e n y o u w e r e m e e ti n g w i th M r v a n W y k ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Had you tested it before? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I t w a s in s id e m y h a n d b a g . Ye s C h a ir I d i d . W e r e y o u s a tis f ie d t h a t i f it w a s i n t h e h a n d b a g i t c o u l d s ti ll r e c o r d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. A n d w h y f o r t h is m e e ti n g in p a r t ic u l a r d i d y o u p u r c h a s e th e d e v ic e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Mr van Wyk was desperate for the m o n e y, h e w a n t e d a c c e s s i n to t h e m o n e y, n o w s in c e n o w h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e ’s c o m i n g to m e e t m e i n M a f ik e n g a n d t e l l m e t h e r e a s o n s w h y h e is s o d e s p e r a t e , t h e n le t m e r e c o r d th is c o n v e r s a ti o n s o t h a t t o m o r r o w h e d o e s n ’ t s a y t h a t I’ v e s a id s o m e th in g e ls e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 And what money was he desperate about? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e l a s t 2 0 m i ll io n t h a t e n t e r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o b y t h e 2 0 t h o f J a n u a r y h a d t h a t 2 0 m il li o n b e e n r e c e iv e d b y K o r o n e k a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. A n d a s I h a v e y o u r t e s t i m o n y e a r li e r th a t ’s a p a y m e n t d i r e c t ly fr o m t h e N o r th W e s t G o v e r n m e n t, is th a t c o r r e c t ? Page 60 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d w a s i t r e c e iv e d b y K o r o n e k a in D e c e m b e r 2015? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: C o r r e c t C h a ir. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c o u ld th e n s ta r t w i t h t h e f ir s t r e c o r d in g w e w il l p la y i t , M s T la ts a n a i f y o u ’l l a s s i s t u s w i t h w h a t i s b e in g s a i d a n d i f a t a n y p o i n t in t h a t r e c o r d i n g i t ’s n e c e s s a r y t o g o to t h e p a g e w h ic h i s h a n d w r it t e n y o u ’l l l e t u s k n o w, t h a n k y o u . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: O k a y C h a ir. A n d a t t h e m e e t in g w a s i t j u s t th e t w o o f y o u , y o u r s e l f a n d M r v a n W y k o r w a s th e r e s o m e b o d y e ls e a s w e ll . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: N o i t w a s t h e t w o o f u s C h a ir. O k a y a lr i g h t . I’ m s o r r y w h a t i s t h e d e v i c e c a l l e d that you purchased for purposes of recording? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : CHAIRPERSON: I t’s a r e c o r d i n g m a c h i n e C h a ir. O h th e r e ’s n o p a r tic u la r – o r y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n ’t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y, a lr i g h t , th a t ’s f in e . Is she able to hear a n y th in g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I t h i n k w e ’r e g o i n g t o h a v e t o t u r n i t a c t u a ll y s o f t e r b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e a m p l if i c a ti o n i s w h a t’s d is t o r ti n g i t , C h a ir i t m a y m a k e s e n s e t o a d j o u r n s o t h a t w e c a n t r y a n d g e t th is r i g h t if w e m a y. CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y le t ’s a d j o u r n f o r t h e t e a b r e a k n o w a n d w e ’ ll Page 61 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 r e s u m e a t f iv e t o e l e v e n . W e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNED INQUIRY RESUMES A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ex t e n d e d b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e e n c o u n t e r e d s o m e d i ff ic u l ti e s w h e n w e s e e k to p l a y t h e r e c o r d in g o n a l l o f t h e s p e a k e r s in t h e r o o m . Th e r e is a le v e l o f d is t o r ti o n t h a t is m a k i n g i t d i ffi c u l t f o r M s Tl a ts a n a c l e a r ly t o h e a r th e r e c o r d i n g . I t is th e r e fo r e o u r p r o p o s a l t h a t fo r t h e p u r p o s e s 10 o f h e r e v id e n c e to d a y w h a t w e d o i s w e e n a b l e Ms Ts l a ts a n a to li s te n to t h e r e c o r d i n g s t h r o u g h e a r p h o n e s p l a y e d fr o m a la p t o p a n d s h e w ill in d i c a t e to o u r c o m m i s s io n i n v e s t ig a t o r w h o is w i th h e r w h e n s h e w o u l d lik e t o p a u s e a n d s t o p th e r e c o r d i n g a n d t h e n s h e w il l t e l l u s th r o u g h h e r te s ti m o n y w h a t s h e h e a r s o n t h e r e c o r d i n g . C h a i r th e s e r e c o r d in g s a r e in th e p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e y c a n b e m a d e a v a i la b le t o a n y p e r s o n w h o w i s h e s to l is t e n to th e m a ft e r th is e v i d e n c e is g iv e n a n d t h e y w i ll t h e n b e in a p o s it i o n to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y w a n t t o d is p u t e a n y a s p e c t o f t h e m t o d o s o . S o i t is o u r p r o p o s a l j u s t t o m a k e t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e p r o c e e d t h a t w e d o i t o n t h a t b a s i s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d a n y o n e o t h e r t h a n M s T la t s a n a i s a b l e t o h e a r w h e n th e y lis t e n t o th e r e c o r d i n g , t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e c e r ta i n l y a b l e t o h e a r p a r ts o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t t a k e s p l a c e i n a r e s t a u r a n t . Page 62 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o t h e r e is s o m e b a c k g r o u n d d is tu r b a n c e a t p o i n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e a r e h o w e v e r p a r ts o f t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t a r e v e r y c l e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n E n g l is h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a r ts o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t a r e i n o t h e r l a n g u a g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p a r t s t h a t a r e le s s c l e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a n y o n e li s t e n i n g t o it w i ll b e a b le c e r t a i n l y c le a r ly t o m a k e o u t p a r ts o f i t . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u w e c a n d o – w e c a n p r o c e e d o n t h a t b a s is . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M y p r o p o s a l M s T la ts a n a i s t h a t w e b e g in w it h th e fir s t e x c e r p t o f t h e r e c o r d i n g w h i c h r e la t e s t o a s w e h a v e lis t e n e d t o i t a r e f e r e n c e t o a R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 p a y m e n t . S o w h a t I w i ll a s k M r M a d l a l a t o d o i s to a ll o w y o u t o l is t e n t o i t , w h e n y o u w a n t h i m t o s t o p s o th a t y o u c a n r e l a y t o u s w h a t is b e i n g s a i d y o u c a n d o s o a n d t h e n y o u c a n t e l l u s w h a t is b e in g s a i d i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n . I s t h a t Page 63 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 fi n e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: J u s t a l s o – I j u s t e m p h a s i z e t h a t w h e n y o u te ll m e w h a t y o u h e a r I w a n t [i n d is ti n c t ] t o h e a r w h a t y o u a r e h e a r i n g i n te r m s o f b o t h c o n v e r s a t i o n – b o t h o f y o u w h o a r e t a lk i n g a t t h e m e e ti n g . T h i s is w h a t h e s a i d , t h is is w h a t I s a i d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y S ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n t h e n e x t p o r t i o n a n d s o o n a n d s o o n o k a y ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . [MS T L AT S A N A IS LISTENING TO RECORDING THROUGH EARPHONES] M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t ta k e s l o n g b e c a u s e i n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y fi r s t o f a l l l e t m e a s k b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g o t e n o u g h p a p e r th e r e to m a k e n o t e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t e l l u s w h a t y o u h a v e h e a r d s o fa r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i t t a k e s lo n g b e c a u s e h e is e a ti n g Page 64 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 b u t w h a t h e w a s s a y in g – w h a t h e s ta r t e d s a y in g w a s – A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a s ts a n a m a y I j u s t in t e r j e c t t h e r e . W h e n y o u s a y h e i s t h a t M r Va n W y k ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . H e s ta r t e d b y te ll in g m e t h a t h e w a s s a y in g th a t D a v i d K a l is il ir a h a s t o b e p a y e d R 1 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 a n d fo r t h e r e fl e c t o r j a c k e ts t h a t t h e y h a v e b o u g h t – r e fl e c t o r j a c k e t s f o r A N C 104. 10 CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry for the? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : R e fl e c t o r – r e f le c to r ja c k e ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r r e f le c to r ja c k e ts . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s r e fl e c t o r j a c k e t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t th e y b o u g h t fo r A N C 1 0 4 a n d h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e h a s g o t a n i n v o i c e , th a t i n v o ic e is i n h is p h o n e a n d h e is g o in g t o f o r w a r d i t t h r o u g h to m e a n d h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e h a s f o r w a r d e d i t e v e n t h o u g h I h a v e n e v e r s e e n i t u p t o t o d a y. A n d h e a ls o – M r Va n W y k – b e c a u s e I w a s s a y in g t o h i m t h a t I a m n o t h a p p y a b o u t 20 t h e w a y y o u p e o p l e a r e d o in g t h i n g s b e c a u s e n o w h o w a r e w e g o i n g t o a c c o u n t f o r a l l th e s e m o n i e s h e n c e n o w h e s a i d n o , n o I a m g o i n g to s e n d y o u t h e i n v o ic e t o s h o w y o u t h a t d e fi n i t e l y w e h a v e s p e n t t h e s e m o n i e s a n d t h e n h e s a i d t h e t o t a l a m o u n t o f m o n e y t h a t th e y h a v e s p e n t it is R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 th a t t h e y h a v e p a i d fo r t h e … CHAIRPERSON: R400 000,00. Page 65 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 t h a t t h e y h a v e p a i d f o r A N C 1 0 4 c e l e b r a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Oh what did you understand that to refer to ANC 104 c e l e b r a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i t w a s a f t e r – 2 0 1 5 w a s a f t e r A N C w a s c e l e b r a t in g 1 0 4 . CHAIRPERSON: 104 years/ M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o h e s a id t h e y h a d p a i d R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h e t o ta l a m o u n t th e y h a v e s p e n t for the … CHAIRPERSON: They had spent? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n – t h e y h a d s p e n t i n c o n n e c ti o n w i th t h e A N C M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 1 0 4 c e le b r a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 0 4 c e le b r a ti o n s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s h e t a lk i n g a b o u t m o n e y th a t h a d b e e n ta k e n o u t o f t h e a c c o u n t o f y o u r c lo s e d c o r p o r a t i o n f o r th a t p u r p o s e ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e w a s – h e w a s t e l li n g m e t o p a y b a c k t h i s m o n e y – to p a y i t b a c k t o h i m b e c a u s e t h is is t h e m o n e y th a t they have spent. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o – w h o is t h e y t h a t h e w a s r e f e r r in g t o ? W h o I w a s h e ta lk i n g a b o u t w h e n h e s a id t h e y h a d s p e n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : He – they he means him and David Page 66 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 K a lis il ir a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h y y o u s h o u l d p a y t h a t t o th e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e w a s s a y i n g th a t I m u s t r e f u n d … CHAIRPERSON: Them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : K o r e n e k e m u s t r e f u n d t h e m t h is R 4 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 b e c a u s e t h i s is t h e m o n e y t h a t t h e y h a v e s p e n t fo r d o i n g 10 t h e r e fl e c t o r ja c k e ts a s w e l l – j a b e c a u s e h e s a id t h e m o n e y t h a t h e s p e n t is R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 t h is i s w h a t h e s a y s h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh and what did you say to him in response to any of t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t t o ld m e h e s a id t o y o u a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e w a s g iv i n g m e in f o r m a t io n . Me I t o l d h i m t h a t I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t a l l t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t e v e r y ti m e y o u w il l b e t a l k i n g o f tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d t h e r e a r e n o i n v o ic e s a n d h o w a r e w e g o i n g t o a c c o u n t fo r a l l t h e s e m o n i e s , t h a t is w h a t I s a i d t o him. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d th a t is w h e n h e s a i d h e w o u ld g i v e y o u – h e w o u ld f o r w a r d y o u t h e i n v o i c e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th e i n v o i c e w a s g o in g to b e in r e s p e c t o f t h e R 4 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 67 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A c c o r d i n g to h i m . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u a s k h i m a n y f u r th e r q u e s ti o n s a b o u t t h is R 4 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 a n d w h y y o u r c l o s e d c o r p o r a t io n s h o u ld p a y fo r i t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I d i d n o t a s k a b o u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t a s k o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a n t e d h i m t o te ll m e … CHAIRPERSON: As much as possible. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A s m u c h a s p o s s i b le b e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: Without you asking too m uch? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a n t – y e s b e c a u s e i t is t h e c o n fir m a t io n o f w h a t h i m a n d D a v i d h a s b e e n d o i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y I ju s t u n d e r s t a n d . Is t h e r e m o r e o f th a t fir s t r e c o r d in g t h a t w e n e e d to lis t e n t o ? I s it g o i n g o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o w e c a n c o n ti n u e to p la y i t. T h a n k y o u . [MS 20 T L AT S A N A IS LISTENING TO RECORDING THROUGH EARPHONES] M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir a n d th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e r e a d y ? Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir a n d h e – h e a s w e l l a s k e d m e i f I a m h a v i n g a p r o b l e m w it h t h e e x p la n a t i o n t h a t h e is g iv in g m e r e g a r d in g a ll t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s o f fi n a n c e s a n d I c o n f ir m e d t o h i m t h a t Page 68 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 y e s I a m h a v i n g a p r o b l e m . A n d t h e n I s a i d b u t i t i s o k a y w e w i ll s e e t h is t h i n g t h e y w il l u n f o l d b e c a u s e w e a r e g o i n g f o r th e e l e c ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t th a t i s t h e e n d o f t h e f ir s t recording. W e w il l n o w m o v e t o t h e s e c o n d – w e ll le t m e b e s p e c i fi c e x c e r p t o f t h e r e c o r d in g , th e w h o le r e c o r d in g a s I m e n t i o n e d e a r li e r i s o v e r t h e p e r io d o f t h e w h o l e m e e ti n g b u t w e h a v e s e l e c te d e x c e r p ts t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s s o w e w il l m o v e t o t h e s e c o n d o n e if w e m a y ? A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h i s is o n e w h e r e y o u m a y w a n t 10 t o r e f e r t o t h e h a n d w r i tt e n n o t e s t h a t h e w a s m a k in g i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m e e ti n g a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r e v id e n c e . S o i f w e c o u l d b e a m t h o s e u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h m a y b e b e f o r e w e d o s o a n d th e n o t e mi g h t r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y b u t fr o m w h a t y o u h e a r w h a t a r e t h e p o in ts t h a t h a v e e m e r g e d s o f a r in y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n a t t h i s m e e ti n g th a t a r e c o v e r e d b y t h e p a r t t h a t y o u h a v e lis t e n e d to ? 1. H e – d id y o u s a y h e c o m p l a i n e d a b o u t y o u d e n y i n g th e a c c o u n t a n t a c c e s s o r t h a t is n o t p a r t o f w h a t is in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s o f a r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t h a t is n o t p a r t o f t h is … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. B u t y o u s a id h e – h e a s k e d t h a t y o u r c l o s e d c o r p o r a t io n s h o u ld r e f u n d h i m a n d th e a c c o u n t a n t th e R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 th a t h e s a id t h e y h a d p a i d o n t h e A N C 1 0 4 c e l e b r a t i o n s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d y o u s a y y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t w a s w h a t ? D i d y o u a g r e e t o r e fu n d t h e m , d id y o u n o t a g r e e , d i d y o u c o m m e n t , Page 69 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 what did you say? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : p a y i n g a l l t h is ? My response was why are we busy W h y a ll t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d h o w a r e w e g o in g t o a c c o u n t f o r a ll t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h a t d i d h e s a y in t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Is t h is w e k n o w – th is i s w h e r e w e a r e going. CHAIRPERSON: Oh that is where we are going? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a l r i g h t . B u t i s it – is i t th e r e f o r e f a ir t o s a y t h is p a r t o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t li s t e n e d t o r e a l ly d e a ls w i t h t h e i s s u e o f th e R 4 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 ? Th is p a r t th a t y o u h a v e li s te n e d to s o fa r … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n i s i t c o r r e c t t o s a y a ll t h a t is d e a l t w i t h is r e a l ly th e R 4 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F o r n o w ? CHAIRPERSON: For now? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . [MS T L AT S A N A IS LISTENING TO RECORDING THROUGH EARPHONES] M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. H e r e h e i s s a y i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 70 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e i s a s k in g m e i f I a m h a v in g a p r o b le m w i t h a l l t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s t h a t h a s b e e n g o i n g o n a n d I k e p t q u i e t I d i d n o t a n s w e r h i m . A n d t h e n h e s a i d , r e m e m b e r I t o ld y o u e v e n in S e p t e m b e r w i t h t h a t a m o u n t t h a t w a s g o i n g o u t . H e is t a lk in g a b o u t S e p te m b e r w a s th e – t h o s e 1 4 – t h o s e 5 5 5 … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S e p t e m b e r i t i s 5 m il li o n a n d 4 .9 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is w h a t h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t i s w h a t h e is t a l k i n g a b o u t th a t d o I r e m e m b e r h e t o l d m e t h a t th e s e m o n i e s h e i s g o i n g t o t a k e c a r e o f people. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay yes. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And what do you say in response to this? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I … C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n w h a t d o y o u s a y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s le t m e – c a n I g o ? A n d th e n h e s a i d i n th e b e g i n n i n g t h e s e p e o p l e a r e in v o l v e d a n d th e – I h a v e b e e n 20 t e ll i n g y o u – l e t m e te ll y o u i n c o n s is te n c e a n d t h e n h e s a y s – b e c a u s e h e is j u s t t a lk i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n h e s a y s y o u n e e d to g iv e p e o p l e t h e i r t h i n g s a n d lo o k a f te r t h e m . concern? A n d a f t e r th a t h e s a y s a n y I w a s k e e p i n g q u i e t I w a s – [i n d is t in c t] s m ili n g a n d t h e n h e Page 71 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s a i d i n i t ia ll y t h is d e p a r t m e n t , th is D O T b e c a u s e h e w a s t a l k i n g o f D O T h a s g r a n t e d a g r a n t a n d t h e n h e is e x p l a i n in g th a t fr o m t h e r e t h e p r o v i n c e a p p o i n t e d t h e a ir l i n e a n d t h e n th e a ir li n e a p p o i n te d th e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y. S o th is w a s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s T la ts a n a I s e e fr o m – y o u a r e p o i n ti n g I t h i n k t o t h e p a g e – t h e h a n d w r i t te n p a g e i s t h a t r ig h t a s y o u a r e e x p l a i n in g th is to u s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Is i t u s e f u l fo r u s to th e n t a k e a l o o k a t t h a t page? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e i t is h a s g o t e v e r y t h i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W h e r e i s h e p o i n ti n g o n t h e p a g e w h e n h e i s r e m i n d i n g y o u a b o u t t h e D O T a n d i ts a g r e e m e n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t is o n t h e l a s t p a g e . O k a y n o , n o n o t h e r e t h e o th e r p a g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p a g e w i th – th a t o n e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d w h e r e is h e o n th a t p a g e a t t h a t point? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e is t h e r e a t D O T. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t a t t h e to p . S o c a n w e ju s t p u t a m a r k e t t h e r e ? C h a ir y o u w i ll fi n d th a t a t – i n t h e b u n d l e D D 8 [b ] a t p a g e 5 8 8 t h a t i s t h e s e c ti o n w e a r e lo o k i n g a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u I h a v e g o t it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d M s T l a t s a n a t h is – t h i s is w h a t Page 72 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 y o u r e c a ll h i m d o in g p h y s i c a ll y w h i l e h e w a s s p e a k i n g , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e r e – I a m s o r r y w e r e t h e t w o o f y o u s i t ti n g a t a t a b l e i n s u c h a w a y th a t y o u c o u l d s e e w h e n h e w a s p o i n ti n g a t t h is p a g e – a t t h e p a g e t h a t – a t t h e p a p e r t h a t h e w a s w r i ti n g o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d h e b r in g i t c lo s e r t o y o u f o r t h e – y o u – fo r th e t w o o f y o u t o s h a r e a n d l o o k a t t h e – a t t h e d o c u m e n t? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C h a ir w e w e r e i n S p u r restaurant. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n t h e ta b le i s lik e t h is s o I w a s s i tt i n g h e r e , h e w a s s i tt i n g h e r e a n d t h e n h e w a s w r it i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h – o h i t w a s q u i t e c lo s e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s it w a s q u i t e c l o s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e s i t t in g a t t h e s a m e ta b l e f a c i n g e a c h o t h e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i t w a s q u i t e c l o s e b e c a u s e I h a d s i t li k e t h i s t o s e e h i m w r i t in g . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y, n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms T la t s a n a ju s t f o r th e r e c o r d . d e s c r ib e h o w y o u w e r e s i t t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I w a s t h i n k i n g a b o u t t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 73 of 172 W e n e e d to 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e p e o p l e w h o r e a d th is i n d u e c o u r s e a n d h a v e n o t h a d t h e b e n e f it o f b e i n g h e r e w i ll n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d . S o c a n I ju s t b e c l e a r w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e is th a t y o u w e r e s i t ti n g o p p o s i te o r f a c i n g e a c h o t h e r a t t h e t a b l e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u m a d e a m o t io n w i t h y o u r b o d y t o e x p l a i n h o w y o u h a d to t u r n t o b e a b l e t o lo o k a t it , d id y o u t u r n t o th e s id e i s h o w I s a w i t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir to h a v e a c c e s s t o – i n t o 10 t h is a n d t h a t h e is w r i t in g s o th a t I c a n b e a b l e t o s e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a is th a t a s l a n t e d p o s i ti o n a b i t o r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k s l a n t e d i s p r o b a b ly t h e w a y t o d e s c r ib e it . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. So you – so she turned a bit and in a slanted p o s i ti o n l o o k e d a t th e p a g e th a t Mr Va n W y k s h e s a y s w a s w r i t in g o n . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e b t e d C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s T la t s a n a y o u w e r e te ll in g u s th a t h e m a d e a r e fe r e n c e to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t . What else did he say? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s h e s a i d t h e b u lk o f th e b u d g e t i s c o m i n g fr o m D O T – D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d th e n t h a t – t h a t Page 74 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 b u d g e t c a m e to t h e p r o v i n c e a n d t h e n t h e p r o v i n c e a p p o i n te d t h e a ir li n e a n d t h e a ir l i n e a p p o i n t e d t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Is t h a t a s w e tr a c k d o w n o n t h a t p a g e th o s e four words. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t o p ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : We can see there DOT and then below it it lo o k s li k e P r o v i n c e . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : P r o v i n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s w r it t e n a n d t h e n a ir li n e is w r i t te n a n d t h e n M G C O . is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th a t is w h e r e h e is p o in t in g a t t h is s t a g e o n that page? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d i s th a t th e e n d o f t h e r e c o r d in g y o u h a v e l is t e n e d t o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e w il l c o n t in u e o n . CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e – b e f o r e y o u m o v e a w a y f r o m t h a t d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u s a y h e w a s w r i ti n g o n n e x t t o D O T o n th e r ig h t th e r e is a l in e lik e a s l a s h a n d t h e n t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t l o o k s l ik e P w h ic h is a b i g le t t e r a n d t h e n is s o m e t h i n g t h a t lo o k s li k e a n E o r s m a ll P a n d e , d o y o u s e e w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t ? D o y o u s e e w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t? Page 75 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o e s it m e a n a n y t h in g th a t s l a s h … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t P P E o r s o m e th in g l i k e th a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N e x t to D O T C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t i s a s la s h . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n it is D P E . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t D P E o r P P E ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : D P E . CHAIRPERSON: Oh and what does that represent if you – if you – if you knew – if you know? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h d i d h e s a y a n y th i n g a b o u t i t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir i n th e r e c o r d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h a t d i d h e s a y i n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n a b o u t i t? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n th a t is w h e r e h e w a s s a y i n g a n d th e n th a t t h in g o n t o p is LY N N . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t a b o v e D P E ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a o n t o p o f D P E is LY N N . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e o n e t h a t i s d i ffic u lt t o r e a d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. Page 76 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. And what does that represent, what does it mean? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o M i n is t e r L y n n e Brown. C H A I R P E R S O N : M i n i s te r Ly n n e Br o w n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y w h a t – w h a t a r e t h e l e t te r s t h a t a r e t h e r e b e c a u s e w h e n I l o o k I c a n n o t t e l l w h a t t h e y a r e ? W h a t a r e th e y ? Th o s e 10 le t t e r s fo r M i n is te r Ly n n e Br o w n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t l e t t e r – t h a t l e t te r i t is – th a t P – y o u s e e t h a t P ? I t is D b u t n o w h e w a s – h e w r o t e i t d o w n t o m a k e i t a s if it is P. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B u t it is D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic E n t e r p r is e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y w a i t, o k a y, o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n – a n d t h e n … CHAIRPERSON: The one on top of that DPE… 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O n to p o f – o n t o p o f D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s is L . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Y N N . CHAIRPERSON: Oh Lynn. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s L y n n . Page 77 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d y o u s a y t h a t is a r e fe r e n c e t o th e t h e n M i n is t e r L y n n e B r o w n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r h e w a s r e f e r r in g to M i n is t e r Ly n n e B r o w n . CHAIRPERSON: B u t i n t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n d o e s h e s a y a n y t h in g a b o u t M i n is t e r L y n n e B r o w n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r is t h a t a p a r t th a t i s s ti ll t o c o m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y th a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : c o m p le t e t h is . Ms T l a ts a n a j u s t b e f o r e w e g o o ff i t j u s t t o Th e r e i s s o m e t h i n g a b o v e D O T a s w e l l o n t h a t p a g e I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t m a y c o m e u p i n th e r e c o r d i n g b u t m a y b e ju s t t o c o m p le t e i t n o w w h a t i s a b o v e D O T if y o u – i f h e m a d e t h a t c l e a r to you? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : D O T is D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a b o v e i t th e r e s e e m s t o b e a ls o s o m e w r i t in g w h a t i s t h a t ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a a b o v e it is D . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t h e l e tt e r D ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a it is th e l e tt e r D . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u k n o w i f i t r e p r e s e n te d a n y t h i n g – r e p r e s e n ts a n y th in g t h a t h e s a id ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h e r e c o r d … Page 78 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w il l c o m e t o i t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h e r e c o r d . h e s a y s D i p u o P e t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M i n i s te r D i p u o P e t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t i s s ti ll t o c o m e i n t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u w a n t t o s a y s o m e th in g M s H o f m e y r ? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . CHAIRPERSON: okay alright. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n c o n ti n u e t h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l c o n t in u e . [MS T L AT S A N A IS LISTENING TO RECORDING THROUGH EARPHONES] M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H o l d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e a d y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t d i d y o u h e a r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N e x t t o – b e f o r e – b e f o r e D t h e r e is [ 2 0 ] i n b r a c k e ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t t h e t o p o f t h e d o c u m e n t r e fl e c t e d a t p a g e 5 8 8 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 79 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t 2 0 h e is s a y in g th a t th is 2 0 h a s t o g o t o M i n is t e r s . CHAIRPERSON: I t is 2 0 w h a t – 2 0 w h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 0 m ill i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : R 2 0 m i ll io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a y s it s h o u l d g o to M i n is t e r s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. J u s t in g e n e r a l o r d o e s h e s p e c i fy w h ic h M i n is t e r s o r is t h a t t o c o m e l a t e r – o r i t d o e s n o t s a y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W e a r e – I a m s t il l t a k i n g t h is t h i n g i n p i e c e , p ie c e , p i e c e b u t h e is … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e w h o l e t h i n g i s g o in g t o u n f o l d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t – j a y o u m u s t j u s t – it i s j u s t t h a t I d o n o t w a n t to f o r g e t a s k i n g s o M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I f I a s k a n d i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is s t il l t o c o m e j u s t s a y t o m e i t is s t il l to c o m e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y C h a ir a lr i g h t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y C h a ir. A n d t h e n h e a s k e d m e i f – i f a m I – a r e y o u t o g e t h e r w i th m e , d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I a m s a y in g ? I s a i d t o h i m c o n t in u e . A n d th e n h e s a id t h is 2 0 m il li o n i t is Page 80 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 r u n n in g s h o r t o f 5 m i ll i o n t o b e c o m p l e t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s j u s t u n d e r 5 m il li o n i s t h a t w h a t h e w a s s a y in g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Let us do it again, let us go back s o m e m o r e s o t h a t I c a n … y e s o k a y. Wa i t – n o I w a n t u s t o g o b a c k h e r e . J u s t g o b a c k b e c a u s e o h to t h a t 2 0 j u s t a s m a ll … g o b a c k a g a in . O k a y. Yo u h a v e g o n e t o o f a r. O k a y. Ye s C h a ir h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e M i n is t e r s 2 0 m i ll io n h a s t o g o t o t h e Mi n is t e r s a n d t h e y h a v e b e e n p a i d 5 m i ll io n a n d n o w 1 5 m il li o n is th e o n e t h a t is s h o r t f o r t h e t w o M i n is t e r s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r – fo r t h e – f o r th e tw o M in is t e r s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is w h a t h e s a i d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e t w o M i n i s te r s y o u – w e r e w h o a n d w h o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : It is M in s te r D ip u o P e t e r s and M i n is t e r L y n n e B r o w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r D i p u o P e te r s a n d M in is t e r Ly n n e B r o w n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ly n n e Br o w n y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e f u r th e r c o n ti n u e d to s a y t h a t t h e r e is t h i s To n a k g o lo a n d h e s a i d To n a k g o l o m o n e y th e p e r s o n w h o i s c a r r y i n g To n a k g o l o m o n e y i s t h a t m a n o f R u s t e n b u r g . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is To n a k g o lo ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To n a k g o l o - h e w a s r e f e r r in g to t h e P r e m i e r. Page 81 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e P r e mi e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O h , it is li k e U n d a n a n k u lu i n i s i Z u l u . O k a y, To n a k g o lo is – is t h a t S e ts w a n a fo r Pr e m ie r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. I t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o w h a t d id h e s a y a b o u t t h e Pr e m i e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e To n a k g o l o is a g r e a t p e r s o n – b i g person. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t d id h e s a y a b o u t h i m ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e h a s t o – h e h a s t o r e c e iv e s o m e m o n e y a n d th e r e i s a – a m a n i n R u s te n b u r g w h o is – w h o h e h a s t o m e e t th a t d a y to g o a n d g i v e h i m t h a t m o n e y f o r To n a k g o l o a n d t h e n h e c o n ti n u e d t o s a y th a t a n d t h e n t h e r e is M E C . When he says MEC he says MEC. M EC (Setswana) and … CHAIRPERSON: I a m – I a m s o r r y. B e fo r e w e g o t o M E C d i d h e m e n ti o n a n y a m o u n t fo r To n a k g o lo – f o r t h e P r e m ie r o r t h a t is y e t t o come? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye t t o c o m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t i s f i n e – t h a t i s fi n e . 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n n o w h e t a lk s a b o u t t h e M E C ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , h e t a lk s a b o u t – h e is - h e i s s t il l lis t in g th e p e o p l e w h o h a s t o g e t … C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e g i v e n m o n e y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To b e g iv e n m o n e y, y e s . Page 82 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e is t a l k in g a b o u t To n a k g o lo . H e i s t a lk in g a b o u t M E C – M E C a n d t h e n h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t H O D . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w is M E C – M E C ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M E C , w h e n h e s a y s M E C … CHAIRPERSON: Oh MEC, oh. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M E C … C H A I R P E R S O N : M E C it is j u s t t h a t h e M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s h e is a b b r e v ia t in g … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t is j u s t th a t y o u – y o u m e n ti o n b o t h y o u s a y M E C – MEC. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y, a lr i g h t . CHAIRPERSON: So, ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M E C . CHAIRPERSON: At this stage did you understand what MEC – which M E C h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t o r is t h a t t o c o m e l a te r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To c o m e l a te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t a n d h e s a y s H O D a s w e l l ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d h e s a y s H O D a s w e l l . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e w il l h e a r l a te r w h ic h H O D ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t a n d y o u d o n o t s a y a n y t h i n g i n r e s p o n s e . Yo u a r e j u s t l is te n in g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No I did not respond. c o n ti n u e . Page 83 of 172 I s a i d to h i m 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r a n d h e f u r t h e r s a i d d o y o u k n o w t h e M E C I a m t a lk in g a b o u t . M E C M o l a p is i . He said yes. I asked him are you saying H e s a id H O D a n d t h e n I a s k e d h i m a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o B a il e y. H e s a id y e s a n d t h e n a f te r t h a t h e s a i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y y o u s a i d a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g to … ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B a il e y M a h l a k o l e n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t w a s H O D f o r w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F o r D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In N o r th W e s t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay and what did he say? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e s a i d y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n h e s a i d a s w e ll a s t h e C F O f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d id y o u a s k – d i d y o u k n o w w h o t h a t w a s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No I – I did not ask him about – b e c a u s e h e s a i d a n d th e C F O a n d y o u s h o u l d k n o w t h a t w i t h – w i t h o u t 20 a l l t h e s e p e o p l e n o t h i n g w i ll g o . T h e s e a r e t h e p e o p le w h o – w h o w i ll g iv e u s th e g o a h e a d w i th t h e – w i t h t h e c o n tr a c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t h e i s – h e is s a y in g i n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir a n d h e t h e n n o w f u r t h e r Page 84 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 w e n t to t h e d i a g r a m – t h a t d ia g r a m t h a t i s i n d ic a ti n g y e a r o n e , y e a r t w o , y e a r th r e e , y e a r f o u r, y e a r fiv e . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e d i a g r a m . Is it the same document at page 5-8-8? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r a n d t h e n i n th a t d i a g r a m h e – h e h a s w r i tt e n b l o c k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n h e s a id y e a r o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s a b l o c k - t h e r e i s a b l o c k w r i t te n Y R 1 , a n o t h e r o n e b e lo w th a t Y R 2 , a n o t h e r o n e b e l o w t h a t Y o r TR 3 , n e x t o n e Y R 4 , Y R 5 a n d t h a t is o n a v e r tic a l c o l u m n a n d a t th e t o p o n a v e r ti c a l – o n a h o r iz o n ta l c o lu m n t h e r e is s o m e t h in g li k e D O T a t t h e to p a n d th e n t h e r e is o n e o n a n o th e r c o l u m n n e x t t o – o n a n o t h e r b o x n e x t t o t h e o n e w r i t t e n D O T a n d o n a n o t h e r b o x n e x t t o o n e – n e x t to t h e o n e w r i t t e n o n e th e r e is a b lo c k w r i t te n M a n d o n a n o th e r v e r ti c a l c o l u m n o n t h e r ig h t o f t h e d o c u m e n t o r d i a g r a m t h e r e is H A C F. T h e r e is H C F, th e r e i s H F C F a n d t h e n s o m e th in g t h a t I c a n n o t 20 r e a d . I t lo o k s l ik e 1 - 1 o r 11 a n d th e n a n o th e r o n e w r i tt e n 11 . O n t h e e x tr e m e l e f t t h e r e is a c o l u m n w h ic h is v e r ti c a l … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I t i s w r i tt e n 5 - 3 a n d i m m e d i a t e ly b e l o w t h a t b u t s o m e h o w b e t w e e n f iv e a n d th r e e in b r a c k e ts s o m e t h in g t h a t l o o k s l ik e two. I n t h a t c o l u m n t h e r e a r e t h e r e a r e o n e , t w o , t h r e e , f o u r, fiv e – Page 85 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h r e e p l a c e s w h e r e i t is w r i t te n fi v e t h r e e a n d b e l o w th a t in a s m a l l b r a c k e ts i t is w r i t te n e i t h e r t w o o r s e v e n . I a m n o t s u r e a n d a t th e b o t to m t h e r e i s 1 5 . Then on the h o r iz o n ta l c o lu m n a t t h e b o t t o m i t is w r it t e n s o m e th i n g t h a t r e a d s l ik e u p d a te o r u p g r a d e – u p g a d e U - P - G - A - D - E a s i t a p p e a r s to m e a n d t h e n t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is w r it t e n t h a t I c a n n o t r e a d o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s id e o f t h a t w o r d a n d b e l o w u p g r a d e o r u p g a d e a n d t h e w o r d t h a t I c a n n o t r e a d t h e r e is 3 0 0 a n d t h e n t h e r e i s s o m e t h in g w r i t t e n a f t e r th a t t h a t l o o k s lik e a z e r o t h a t h a s b e e n s h a d e d a n d b e l o w t h a t t h e r e is a 10 tr i a n g l e w r i t te n a n d tw o – w e l l n o I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t is a t r i a n g le . T h e r e is - t h e r e is tw o w r i t t e n o n e i th e r s i d e . I h a v e tr ie d t o tr y a n d d e s c r ib e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: What I see here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o m e b o d y e ls e m i g h t g i v e a d i ff e r e n t d e s c r ip t io n o f s o m e o f th e t h i n g s b u t I j u s t w a n t t o e n a b le y o u – Ms T l a ts a n a – w h e n y o u r e fe r u s to a n y p a r t o f th a t d o c u m e n t t o b e a b l e t o j u s t s a y u n d e r – in r e g a r d t o 5 - 3 o r i n r e g a r d t o Y R 1 w h ic h m a y b e y e a r o n e , y e a r t w o , 20 y e a r th r e e . O k a y, a lr i g h t. Yo u – y o u c a n p r o c e e d t h e n . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y C h a ir a n d t h e n h e – h e m a d e m e n ti o n t h a t fir s t – f ir s t y e a r D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t i t is a o n c e o ff a n d th e n n u m b e r o n e o f t h e p r o v i n c e … CHAIRPERSON: N o w y o u s a y D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d y o u a r e s a y in g s o w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o th is d i a g r a m . Page 86 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F ir s t y e a r … C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u - a r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o w h e r e i t s a y s D O T n e x t to year one? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u a r e s a y in g o n c e o ff ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h a t r e f e r t o – t o w h a t a p p e a r s li k e o n e o n t h e 10 block - on the right hand side of DOT? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S t i ll to c o m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To c o m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w h e n y o u s a y o n c e o ff I a m a s k i n g w h e th e r t h a t i s a r e fe r e n c e to t h a t o n e o r n o t r e a ll y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. T h a t o n e – t h a t o n e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I s s t a n d i n g f o r t h e n u m b e r o n e o f t h e province. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y a lr ig h t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S o a c t u a l ly h e r e i n y e a r o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : D O T, n u m b e r o n e o f t h e p r o v in c e , t h e Page 87 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M i n is t e r t h e y a r e o n c e o ff . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. N o w D O T o n t h e c o l u m n n e x t t o th e – o n t h e b l o c k n e x t to t h e b l o c k w r i t te n y e a r o n e … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : R e f e r s t o D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d th e b l o c k n e x t t o D O T w r i t te n o n e … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t r e p r e s e n ts n u m b e r o n e o f t h e p r o v in c e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e r e is a b l o c k n e x t t o th e b l o c k w h ic h h a s g o t n u m b e r o n e – w h ic h h a s g o t o n e . T h a t i s w r i t te n M . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y t h a t M r e f e r s t o M i n is t e r s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M i n i s te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h M i n i s te r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d o k a y c o n t in u e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s a n d t h e n i n t h a t fir s t y e a r t h e r e is H o n to p a n d C F b e l o w. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s th e r e i s H . T h e r e is a b l o c k n e x t t o t h e b l o c k t h a t h a s g o t M th a t i s w r i t te n H a n d b e l o w t h a t C F, y e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r a n d th e n h e s a i d H O D a n d C F O t h e y w il l b e g i v e n m o n e y u n t il t h e e n d o f th e c o n tr a c t . T h e y w il l r e c e i v e s o m e m o n e y u n t il t h e e n d o f t h e c o n tr a c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : In o th e r w o r d s f o r y e a r o n e u p t o y e a r f iv e ? Page 88 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Th e Y R 1 , Y R 2 , Y R 3 , Y R 4 , Y R 5 w h ic h a p p e a r o n t h e s e c o n d c o l u m n t o t h e le f t t h a t r e fe r s t o y e a r o n e , y e a r t w o , y e a r th r e e , y e a r fo u r, y e a r f iv e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u s a y t h a t w h a t is w r i t t e n o n th e – o n t h e c o l u m n o n th e e x tr e m e r ig h t o n t h e d i a g r a m w h e r e i t s a y s H a n d t h e n C F a n d t h e n C H C F t h r o u g h o u t a n d I t h i n k w h a t is w r i t te n in r e g a r d to y e a r fo u r a n d y e a r fiv e i s j u s t s o m e p u n c t u a t io n m a r k t o i n d i c a t e s a m e 10 t h i n g . Is th a t r i g h t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t r e p r e s e n t s th a t t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d the CFO would be paid right throughout? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f iv e y e a r p e r i o d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And when you look at the column under D – DOT it o n ly – i t is o n l y w r i tt e n i n r e s p e c t o f y e a r o n e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t m e a n s th e y w o u l d o n ly g e t s o m e t h in g fo r d u r i n g t h a t – t h e f ir s t y e a r o n ly i n th a t r e g a r d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I n t h e fir s t y e a r C h a ir - h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t h a t i n t h e f ir s t y e a r b e o n c e o ff . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s th e - t h e D O T w a s a o n c e o ff a n d n u m b e r o n e in t h e p r o v i n c e w a s a ls o o n c e o ff. Page 89 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O n c e o ff , y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e M i n i s t e r w a s a ls o o n c e o ff ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e y w o u ld b e p a i d s o m e t h i n g b u t o n a o n c e o ff b a s is ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Not every year? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . C o n t i n u e . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : c la r i fi c a t io n ? Ms T l a ts a n a c a n I ju s t g e t o n e p o i n t o f Pr e v io u s ly y o u i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e t w o M i n is te r s w h o w e r e b e i n g r e f e r r e d to . T h a t i s w h e n w e w e r e a t th e t o p o f t h is s e c t io n o f th e p a g e b u t w h e n y o u a r e d e s c r i b i n g n o w w h a t w a s s a i d i n r e l a ti o n t o y e a r o n e I – I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o r e f e r o n ly t o o n e M i n is te r. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I a m r e fe r r in g i n th e y e a r o n e … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : D O T is M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M - M i s M in is t e r is L y n n e Br o w n a c c o r d i n g t o t h e v o ic e h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h , I u n d e r s ta n d s o r r y. S o D O T i n t h a t c o l u m n Page 90 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 next to YR1 … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s a c t u a l ly a r e f e r e n c e t o th e M i n is t e r … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O f Tr a n s p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f Tr a n s p o r t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . T h e n t h e o n e s ig n i f ie s t h e n u m b e r o n e in t h e p r o v i n c e t h e P r e m i e r … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e M s i g n i fi e s M in is t e r Ly n n e B r o w n w h o w a s t h e M in is t e r i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t t h a t h e is ta lk in g a b o u t t h e r e i n t h e d i a g r a m i s i t – w a s i t s t ill M i n i s t e r D i p u o P e t e r s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 A n d h e f u r th e r s a i d – h e fu r t h e r s a i d d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I a m – w h a t I a m s a y in g ? A r e y o u g o i n g a l o n g w i t h m e a n d th e n I s a i d I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d - I s a i d I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d you. Yo u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t p o li ti c i a n s . Yo u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a d m i n is tr a t o r s a s w e l l w h o h a s t o g e t m o n e y. Is H O D a n d C F O n o t – a r e t h e y n o t e a r n i n g e v e r y m o n t h a s w e l l b e c a u s e t h is – t h e o th e r th r e e t h e y a r e e a r n in g . Page 91 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 S o y o u a r e a d d in g t h e m a s w e ll n o w f o r – fo r a p e r i o d o f a c o n tr a c t. H e s a i d y e s y o u s h o u l d u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e o th e r w is e if y o u n o t t a k i n g c a r e o f th e m y o u w i ll n e v e r g e t y o u r p a y m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t h e s a y s in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o n ti n u e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d h e f u r th e r s a i d th a t I s h o u ld b e a r 10 in m i n d t h a t th e C F O is – is t h e H O D s p e r s o n t h a t is w h y i t is i m p o r t a n t for her as well to receive money every time when – when the payment is b e i n g m a d e a n d t h e n h e ju m p e d – h e w e n t t o … CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e – b e fo r e h e j u m p e d w h o w a s t h e C F O a t t h e ti m e t h a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o Ms P h a t u d i . CHAIRPERSON: The CFO of the … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d h e j u m p e d to th e g r a n t t o t e l l m e t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e s o c r i ti c a l - H O D a n d C F O – b e c a u s e t h e y a r e c r i ti c a l in a s e n s e th a t t h e y c a n d e c id e t o a d d s o m e m o n e y i n t o t h a t grant. T h a t is w h y n o w h e w a s g o i n g t o – c a n y o u g o to t h e o t h e r s li d e ? Page 92 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C o u l d w e m o v e t o t h e o th e r s i d e ? This o n e M s Tl a ts a n a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o , n o , n o . T h e o t h e r o n e a b o v e t h is d i a g r a m . N o , n o . CHAIRPERSON: Page 5-8-7? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No, no. No, no. I want – I want – I w a n t th is o n e h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n w h a t – o n w h a t p a g e is i t ? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e g o b a c k to 5 - 8 - 8 – t h i s o n e a n d w e g o t o the top of it. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a 5 - 8 – j a 5 - 8 - 8 j a . 5 - 8 - 8 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : K e e p g o in g . T h a t o n e - y o u w a n t t h e t o p o f i t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e r e b y 3 1 . T h i s o n e n o w … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a a n d t h e n n o w h e w e n t to – t o t h a t d i a g r a m t o s a y I s h o u ld k n o w th a t 3 1 m i ll i o n is p a i d a n d th e n 2 0 m i ll io n 20 is b e in g p a i d w h ic h i t m a k e s 5 1 m i lli o n a n d th e n h e w a s s a y in g t h a t t h e H O D a n d t h e C F O t h e y a r e th e v e r y c r i tic a l p e o p le t o b e t a k e n c a r e o f because they can decide to increase the – the grant. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s u b s id y o r g r a n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 93 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n th e y c a n d e c id e to in c r e a s e t h e s u b s id y w it h 1 8 m i ll io n to m a k e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t a 1 - 8 t h a t w e s e e b e l o w t h e 5 - 1 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n th e r e is a l in e t o to t a l . I s th a t correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To m a k e i t 6 9 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w le t u s l o o k a t t h a t . In th a t d i a g r a m t h e r e is 3 1 – t h e r e i s th e n u m b e r 3 1 . Yo u s a y w h a t d i d h e s a y a b o u t t h a t 3 1 a n d t h e n th e r e is 2 0 b e l o w t h a t a n d t h e n t h e r e is 5 1 . Can you just repeat what he said about those number? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 3 1 m i ll io n – 3 1 m i ll i o n is – is t h e o n e t h a t w a s p a i d b e f o r e . CHAIRPERSON: P a i d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t to y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms T l a ts a n a m a y I j u s t in t e r j e c t th e r e ? Th e 3 1 m il li o n w h o p a i d i t t o K o r e n e k a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 3 1 m ill i o n w a s p a i d b y S A E x p r e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t o – in t o K o r e n e k a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To K o r e n e k a . C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 94 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d R 2 0 0 0 0 – R 2 0 m il li o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n – a n d 2 0 m i lli o n w a s p a id b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t i n t o K o r e n e k a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th a t m a d e a to t a l o f R 5 1 m i ll io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n – a n d th e n th e r e i s s o m e th in g w r i t t e n b e l o w 5 1 . D o y o u s a y th a t i s 1 8 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s it is 1 8 m i ll io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t d i d h e s a y a b o u t th a t 1 8 m il li o n ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : He was that 18 m il li o n is M r M a h l a k o l e n g a n d th e C F O t h e y a r e v e r y c r i tic a l p e o p le w h o t h e y c a n e v e n – t h e y a r e g o i n g t o i n c r e a s e th e – t h e g r a n t w it h t h i s 1 8 m i ll i o n t o m a k e it 6 9 m i ll i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e w a s s a y i n g t h e r e w a s g o in g t o b e a n in c r e a s e or was he saying they could make an increase? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e s a i d th e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a n in c r e a s e . CHAIRPERSON: He says there was going to be an increase? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O f th e s u b s id y a n d i t w o u ld – th e y w o u l d a d d R 1 8 m il li o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d s o t h a t t h e to t a l a m o u n t w o u l d – w o u l d n o t become 69? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 95 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h a t b e n o w fo r t h e w h o l e o f t h e y e a r – 2 0 1 6 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 y e s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h e i n c r e a s e w a s i t g o in g to b e a d d e d t o th e – to w h a t - to t h e 2 0 1 5 s u b s i d y o r w a s i t g o in g t o b e f o r t h e 2 0 1 6 s u b s i d y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No, no. I t w a s – i t w a s g o in g t o b e a d d e d t o th e 2 0 1 5 s u b s i d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Al r i g h t , o k a y. C o n ti n u e . Yo u d i d n o t s a y a n y t h i n g i n 10 r e s p o n s e t o t h is p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. S o n o w w e a r e g o i n g t o m o v e t o th e t h ir d r e c o r d i n g w h ic h I h a v e i t d e a ls w i t h f u r th e r p a y m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y b e fo r e w e g o t o o t h e r – t o a n o th e r d i a g r a m . T h e d ia g r a m t h a t w e h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i t h n o w – u p t o n o w a t p a g e 5 - 8 - 8 y e s t h a t d i a g r a m . Th e fi g u r e s o f 5 - 3 o n t h e e x tr e m e l e f t w h a t d id t h e y r e p r e s e n t ? W h a t d id h e s a y a b o u t i t o r w h a t y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e m t o r e fe r t o ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To c o m e C h a ir – t o c o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , t o c o m e . O k a y, a lr ig h t a n d a ls o th a t u p g r a d e a n d 3 0 0 a t t h e b o tt o m s ti ll to c o m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d Ms T l a ts a n a i f I c o u l d j u s t a d d t o th e – to Page 96 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h e li s t t h a t w e a r e n o w c o m p il in g y o u w i ll s e e i n t h e t o p r i g h t th e r e i s – w h e r e p r o v i n c e i s w r i t te n t h e r e a r e l in e s g o i n g o u t fr o m t h e p r o v i n c e . T h e n y o u h a v e g o t s o m e t h i n g w r i t te n t h e r e a n d t h e n I c a n m a k e o u t a b o v e i t a f iv e a n d a 1 0 . W il l y o u a l s o a d d r e s s t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S t o p th e r e . Ye s C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d h e f u r th e r s a i d th e s e c r i ti c a l p e o p l e th e y h a v e a d d e d s o m e t h i n g o n t o p a n d t h e n h e f u r t h e r s a id Ly n n e B r o w n h a s t o g e t 1 0 m i ll io n , D i p u o P e te r s h a s t o g e t 1 0 m i lli o n a n d t h e n h e s a i d n u m b e r o n e o f t h e p r o v i n c e n e e d e d 1 0 m i ll io n b u t h e h a s b e e n p a i d fiv e m i ll io n a n d t h e n h e s a i d E – i n th e d i a g r a m – i n th e d i a g r a m o f – o f t h e p r o v in c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t p a g e 5 - 8 - 8 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 Th a t – t h a t o n e – t h a t o n e t h a t is c ir c le d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is t h e o n e … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Is n u m b e r o n e o f t h e p r o v in c e . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t i s – j a t h a t is t h e o n e t h a t y o u s a i d r e fe r s to number one of the province, ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s a n d t h e n fi v e o n t o p . Page 97 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e f iv e … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h e r e i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e i s t h e fiv e o n t o p ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o v e th e o n e . I s t h a t r ig h t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , a b o v e o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e r ig h t h a n d s id e . So we have got the w o r d p r o v i n c e a s I a m f o l lo w in g y o u Ms T l a ts a n a a n d th e n w e h a v e g o t li n e s c o m i n g o u t o f th e w o r d s p r o v i n c e t o w a r d s t h e to p o f th e p a g e a n d t h e n w e h a v e a o n e o n t h e fi r s t l in e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s t h a t s i g n i fy ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O n e s i g n i fi e s n u m b e r o n e – h e s a y s number one of the province. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a b o v e th a t i s t h a t w h e r e w e f in d th e n u m b e r f iv e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m tr y i n g t o l o c a t e w h e r e t h e t w o o f y o u a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. I f w e – i f w e g o t o t h e t o p … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is p r o v i n c e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr o v in c e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u ta k e t h e w o r d p r o v i n c e th e r e a r e f o u r li n e s c o mi n g o u t fr o m th e w o r d p r o v i n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes. A D V K AT E HOFMEYR: I f y o u g o to t h a t to p l in e t h e r e ’s a o n e a s I Page 98 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 h a v e t h e e v i d e n c e , th a t i s a r e fe r e n c e a c c o r d i n g to M s T la ts a n a t o n u m b e r o n e in t h e P r o v i n c e , th e Pr e m i e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n a b o v e t h a t is a fiv e , is th a t c o r r e c t M s Tl a ts a n a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s th e f iv e s i g n i fy ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 F iv e s ig n i f ie s t h a t h e h a s a lr e a d y r e c e i v e d R 5 m i ll io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n n e x t t o fiv e th e r e i s t e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Te n h e is s t il l – h e n e e d e d R 1 0 m il li o n b u t h e ’s b e e n p a i d R 5 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir a n d th e n n e x t to o n e is E . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B i d E h e w a s t a k e n o ff t h e M E C . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d E C . CHAIRPERSON: E represented who? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M E C , h e j u s t w r o t e E o f t h e M E C . CHAIRPERSON: E , o h o k a y it w a s n o t a r e f e r e n c e t o s o m e b o d y ’s Page 99 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 name? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir, i t s a y s M E C h e ’s b e e n p a i d b u t h e ’s s h o r t o f R 7 0 0 0 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a r e f e r e n c e i n t h e d ia g r a m t o R 7 0 0 0 0 0 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o n o t i n t h e d i a g r a m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t’s w h a t h e s a y s i n t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r e m e m b e r th a t w h e n h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t h e w a s p o i n ti n g to t h is E . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o j u s t r e p e a t w h a t h e s a i d a b o u t E , a b o u t t h e MEC. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : E is M E C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W h o h a s b e e n p a i d , h e s a id M E C h a s b e e n p a id h e is o n ly r u n n in g s h o r t o f b e in g R 7 0 0 0 0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: He said there was only R700 000 remaining to be paid to him. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , th e n e x t l i n e is f o r H O D , h e d i d n ’ t w r i t e b u t th is i s w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g b e c a u s e h e w a s w r i ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, s o h e s a id H O D . Page 100 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , th e t h ir d a r r o w s a y s i t ’s H O D i s b e i n g p a i d b u t h e ’s r e m a i n in g to b e p a i d a n o t h e r R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n h e fu r t h e r m e n ti o n e d th a t h i s p r i o r i ty f o r n o w is f o r t h e t w o m i n i s t e r s a n d t h e n h e s a i d 1 8 m il li o n is b e i n g a d d e d in t o t h i s b u d g e t a n d t h e b u d g e t fo r n o w it ’s 6 9 mi ll i o n fo r t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, o k a y b u t th a t s ti ll w a s g o i n g t o , th a t s t il l related to the 2015 allocation? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s Tl a ts a n a m a y I j u s t c la r i fy, a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e o n th e r e c o r d i n g a t t h i s p o in t h e h a s n ’ t s a id t h a t e i t h e r o f t h e M i n is te r s h a v e r e c e i v e d a p a y m e n t y e t h a s h e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E HOFMEYR: S o t h e R 1 8 m i ll io n t h a t w a s t o b e a d d e d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y w a s t o b e u s e d t o p a y t h e M i n is t e r s , correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o a p o l o g i e s c la r i fy f o r m e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir, h is p r i o r i ty f o r n o w i s f o r t h e s e t w o M i n i s te r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : So that now I should give David K a lis il ir a th e a c c e s s in t o t h e a c c o u n t w i t h t h e m o n e y th a t w a s p a i d i n Page 101 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 D e c e m b e r, s o th a t h e c a n g o a n d p a y t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e m o n e y th a t h a d b e e n p a i d i n D e c e m b e r w a s R 2 0 m i ll io n . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D id h e s o f a r h a s h e i n d ic a te d h o w m u c h th e tw o M i n is t e r s s h o u l d g e t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: How much was that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e m e n t i o n e d e a r l ie r o n t h a t M i n is t e r 10 Ly n n e Br o w n h a s t o g e t R 1 0 mi ll i o n a n d M i n is t e r D i p u o P e te r s h a s to g e t R 1 0 m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, o k a y. S o t h a t m e a n s t h a t th e w h o l e a m o u n t t h a t y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t io n g o t in D e c e m b e r, t h e w h o l e a m o u n t o f R 2 0 m i ll io n t h a t y o u C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n g o t i n D e c e m b e r w a s t o b e p a id t o t h e t w o m in is t e r s o n t h e b a s i s o f R 1 0 m i l li o n e a c h ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a n d d id y o u s a y a t t h is p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n d i d y o u s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t th is R 2 0 m il li o n b e i n g p a i d t o t h e t w o M i n is t e r s ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : ( I n d i s t i n c t) C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u M s T l a t s a n a . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir a n d t h e – h e s a i d I s h o u l d k n o w t h a t t h e a c t u a l b u d g e t w a s in c r e a s e d t o – t h e a c t u a l b u d g e t w a s in c r e a s e d t o R 6 0 m i ll io n . Page 102 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e b u d g e t fo r t h e s u b s i d y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , h e s a i d b u t w e s h o u l d r e m e m b e r it h a s b e e n i n c r e a s e d to R 6 0 m i ll i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o w R 9 m i ll i o n is a d d e d f o r th e purpose of the boys of the Number One of the Province. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e v o ic e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B o y s , b o y s , b o y s . CHAIRPERSON: Boys, for the boys? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e h e is n o t w o r k in g , h e s a y s h e is n o t w o r k in g a l o n e , h e h a s g o t p e o p l e t h a t h e ’s w o r k i n g w i th a n d th a t R 9 m i ll io n h a s t o g o t o t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y m u s t g e t s o m e t h i n g a s w e ll . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , t h a t i s t h e n u m b e r o n e o f th e p r o v i n c e , t h e b o y s of number one of the province? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w e w i ll m o v e t o th e n e x t r e c o r d in g . 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : And he further said we should r e m e m b e r a g a i n th a t t h e s e p e o p le t h a t h a v e t o b e g iv e n t h e r e a r e o th e r people, because the negotiations were made by my boss and the C h a ir m a n o f th e B o a r d . Page 103 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d d id he say who h is boss and th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d w e r e t h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t , w a s t h a t s t il l to come? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t o c o m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th o s e a r e t h e e x tr a c ts t h a t w e c o m p il e d f o r t o d a y M s T la ts a n a , b u t w h a t I w o u ld lik e t o a s k y o u i s w h e t h e r y o u r e c a l l a n y o t h e r i m p o r t a n t a s p e c ts o f t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t y o u r e g a r d a s r e l e v a n t a n d w h a t m i g h t a s s is t y o u th e r e is to lo o k a t t h a t d i a g r a m 10 b e c a u s e t h e C h a ir a s I h a v e i t s t il l h a s a f e w q u e s ti o n s i n r e la t io n t o i t , t h e o n e th a t t h e C h a i r r a i s e d is in t h a t s e c ti o n t h a t is r e f le c t e d n o w, t h e e n d c o lu m n o n th e r ig h t th a t w e ’v e e x t r a c t e d , y o u w i ll s e e d o w n t h e l e ft h a n d s id e t h a t is i n E X H I B I T D D 8 B p a g e 5 8 8 , t h e r e a r e 5 3 , 5 3 , 5 3 w r i t t e n w i t h w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e li t tl e t w o ’s b e n e a t h t h e m , w h a t w a s th a t s e c t io n o f t h e p a g e s ig n if y i n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r, i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y, i f I r e m e m b e r, t h is fiv e a n d th r e e f ir s t y e a r, s e c o n d y e a r, t h ir d y e a r, f o u r t h y e a r, f i ft h y e a r, t h e s e a r e t h e a m o u n ts t h a t Mr v a n W y k w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e H O D a n d t h e C F O w i ll g e t e v e r y y e a r, i t ’s g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f t h e ir 20 p o r t i o n s a n d h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t b e t w e e n fi v e m il li o n a n d t h r e e m i ll io n . CHAIRPERSON: Oh so it was not 53? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e y w o u l d g e t f o r e a c h o f t h e y e a r s , y e a r o n e u p to y e a r f iv e , s o m e t h i n g b e t w e e n fi v e m il li o n a n d t h r e e m il li o n . Page 104 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. I t ’s h i m , i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll h e w a s s a y i n g i t ’s h i m t h e C F O a n d t h e H O D , th e y w il l b e s h a r i n g b e t w e e n fi v e a n d t h r e e m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: Oh so there would be one amount and then they w o u ld h a v e s e e w h o g e t s h o w m u c h b a s e d o n h o w e v e r b e t w e e n f iv e m il li o n a n d t h r e e m i ll io n , it ’s n o t lik e e a c h o n e w o u l d g e t e i t h e r fi v e o r t h r e e a n d a n o t h e r o n e a n o t h e r t h r e e , i t w i ll b e s h a r e d b e t w e e n t h e t w o of them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 C o r r e c t C h a ir, a m o n g t h e t h r e e o f them. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o i s t h e t h ir d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e th ir d w a s Br ia n h i m s e l f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s M r v a n W y k . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s t h e tw o b e n e a t h th a t s ig n i f y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e t w o h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t m e e v e r y y e a r I w il l b e g e t ti n g t h e t w o m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is y o u r s e l f ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b u t is t h a t a ls o in t h e r e c o r d i n g o r i s t h a t y o u r – ju s t y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t h e is n o t n e c e s s a r ily i n the recording? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o h e i s i n t h e r e c o r d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s in t h e r e c o r d in g ? Page 105 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e t h is w h o le t h i n g is r e c o r d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n I th i n k r e m a i n in g o n th a t p a g e is j u s t t h e b o t to m w h e r e it s e e m s t o s a y u p g a d e o r u p g r a d e a n d t h e n t h e 3 0 0 s p l i t a n d w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e t w o t w o ’s , c a n y o u e x p la i n t o u s w h a t t h a t is ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e h e r e is a ir p o r t , y o u s e e t h a t h e s c r a tc h e d t h e a ir p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Is t h a t t h e w o r d n e x t t o u p g r a d e t h a t s e e m s t o have been crossed out? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , i t’s a ir p o r t b u t I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r what was he said. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Okay any greater memory about that bottom s e c t io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h is 3 0 0 0 0 0 I s h o u l d t h in k h e w a s r e fe r r i n g i t t o t h is – to h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 O k a y i f w e c o u ld g o t o t h e o t h e r p a r t o f t h e page then. C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g ie s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d o y o u t h in k t h e 3 0 0 r e f e r r e d t o h i m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : ( I n d i s t i n c t) C h a i r ? CHAIRPERSON: What was the 300 on that diagram at the bottom of Page 106 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h a t d i a g r a m a t p a g e 5 8 8 , w h a t d o e s i t r e f e r to ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Yo u k n o w C h a ir I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r, l e t me fo r g e t about th is 300, but otherwise I know that i t’s in . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r I d id n ’t q u i te , I am not ... CHAIRPERSON: And the word upgade or upgrade do you remember w h a t i t w a s a ll a b o u t , w h a t i t m e a n t ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, h e d o e s n ’ t s t o p t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e u p g r a d e o f t h e a i r p o r t , h e i s j u s t c o n t i n u in g u p g r a d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o y o u s a y th is w o r d w a s m e a n t to b e u p g r a d e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e u p g r a d i n g o f t h e a ir p o r t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b e c a u s e t h i s w h o l e c o n v e r s a ti o n it ’s a l l a b o u t t h e a i r p o r ts , t h e b u s i n e s s o f t h e a i r p o r ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d t h e n M s Tl a ts a n a w e w e r e g o i n g t o t h e o th e r s e c t i o n o f t h e p a g e w h ic h w e h a v e r e p r e s e n t e d i n E X H I B I T D D 8 B a t p a g e 5 8 7 , if w e c a n l o o k a t t h a t w i t h y o u a n d y o u c a n t a l k u s t h r o u g h what was being recorded there. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r, a t th e b e g i n n i n g t h e r e i s a one – the next one is agreement. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 107 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e s ta r t e d b y s a y i n g th a t K o r e n e k a h a s t o e n t e r i n t o a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h h i m s e l f fo r a p e r i o d o f f iv e y e a r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t th e r e w o u l d b e – t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n a g r e e m e n t between Koreneka and Mr van Wyk? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d th e n n e x t t o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e s a y w h a t th a t a g r e e m e n t w a s g o i n g to b e f o r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 H e s a i d t h a t w e s h o u l d e n te r in t o a n a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e o f th e m o n e y .. .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o f y o u r w o r k i n g r e l a t io n s h i p , to f o r m a l is e th e r o l e t h a t h e w a s p l a y i n g , t h a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g b y t h e n w a s C h a ir h e h a s b e e n i n c o n tr o l o f . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O f y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O f m y c lo s e c o r p o r a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 Now him being in control now his n o r m a l i n c o n tr o l s o t o m a k e t h in g s e a s y s o m e a n d – K o r e n e k a a n d himself must now enter into an agreement. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, b u t y o u – s o y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t h e w a n t e d a n a g r e e m e n t w it h K o r e n e k a s o t h a t h e c o u ld c o n t i n u e t o p l a y a r o l e i n K o r e n e k a ’s b u s i n e s s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 108 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t w o i s w a y f o r w a r d , in t h i s w a y f o r w a r d h e w a s s a y in g t h a t t h e r e ’s a b o x b e l o w w a y fo r w a r d , h e w a s s a y in g o n e . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u t a lk a b o u t w a y f o r w a r d o n th e e x tr e m e r i g h t o r i f y o u g o h o r iz o n ta ll y o n o n e t h a t is f iv e y e a r s w h a t d i d t h a t fi v e y e a r s r e p r e s e n t , w h a t d i d h e s a y a b o u t f iv e y e a r s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Koreneka should enter into an a g r e e m e n t w i th h i m s e l f f o r a p e r i o d o f fiv e y e a r s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, a lr ig h t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d m o v e d t o t w o o n th e w a y f o r w a r d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , o n t h e w a y fo r w a r d n o w w e s h o u l d s t a r t n o w d o i n g t h in g s p e a c e fu lly a n d b e h a v i n g e v e r y m o n t h w e n e e d t o h a v e m o n t h ly m e e ti n g s . CHAIRPERSON: S o I s e e th e r e ’s a b o x t h e r e a n d th e r e ’s a n a s t e r is k o n t h e l e f t h a n d s id e o f th e b o x a n d in b e t w e e n i n s i d e t h e b o x is w r i t te n o n e m o n th m e e ti n g , is t h a t w h a t h e w a s ta l k in g a b o u t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t i n u e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e n h e w a s a s k i n g m e w h a t is h a p p e n in g a b o u t o p e r a ti o n s , a b o u t fi n a n c e s a n d fi n a n c i a l ta x e s . He w a s a s k in g m e n o w s in c e n o w th e a c c e s s is b e in g t a k e n a w a y fr o m t h e a u d it o r, M r K a l is il ir a , n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g w it h t h a t a n d w h a t is h a p p e n in g w it h t h e fi n a n c e s a n d w h a t is h a p p e n in g w it h t h e fi n a n c i a l Page 109 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 a n d t a x e s . A n d th e n w h e n w e g o d o w n h e s a i d b e c a u s e B a b a d i D a v i d ’s r o l e , D a v i d K a l is i lir a ’s r o l e b y th e w a y . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr I don’t know whether you don’t want her t o f i n is h t h a t l i n e o r is i t m o r e c o n v e n i e n t t o fi n i s h e a c h l i n e b e f o r e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h a t is p r e f e r a b le C h a ir, i f b e fo r e w e g e t t o D a v i d ’s r o l e M s Tl a ts a n a y o u ’v e t a k e n u s i n t h a t li n e w h e r e t h e r e ’s a b o x o n e m o n t h m e e t in g , y o u ’v e t a k e n u s a c r o s s i t , r e a d i n g fr o m l e f t t o r ig h t , y o u ’v e t o l d u s h e w a s w o r r i e d a b o u t – w e ll h e w a n t e d to d is c u s s 10 w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g , fi n a n c e s , f i n a n c i a l a n d t a x , t h e n t h e r e ’s a r e fe r e n c e t o t h e w o r d a u d i t t h e r e , I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r t e s ti m o n y t o b e t h a t ’s a r e f e r e n c e t o th e a u d i t o r, Mr K a lis il i r a , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n b e l o w t h a t t h e r e s e e ms t o b e M A A R i n b r a c k e ts a n d a 1 A p r i l , w h a t d id t h a t s i g n i f y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n ’ t k n o w b u t I k n o w t h a t i t’s – o k a y, I s h o u l d , n o l e t m e n o t j u s t p r e s u m e , b u t f in a n c i a l ta x e s – o k a y fi n a n c i a l t a x e s fo r th e y e a r e n d , fi n a n c i a l y e a r s t h e y b e g i n 1 s t A p r il a n d M a r c h a t t h e ti m e , s o th e s e w e r e t h e r o l e s o f K a li s i lir a th e ta x e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r s to o d a n d t h e n y o u m o v e d d o w n t o t h e n e x t a s te r is k w h ic h r e a d s D a v id r o l e a s I h a v e i t a n d y o u w e r e g o in g t o d e s c r ib e th a t to u s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , h e w a n te d t o fi n d o u t n o w b e c a u s e n o w D a v id d o e s n ’ t h a v e a n a c c e s s n o w w h a t is g o i n g t o b e h is Page 110 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 r o l e b e c a u s e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w a s D a v i d Mr K a li s i lir a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : He was saying what about his role b e c a u s e n o w M r K a l is i li r a ’s r o l e h a s b e e n t o d o p a y m e n t s , h e ’s a n a c c o u n t a n t to d o fi n a n c i a l s , to d o t a x e s , PAY E , r e t u r n s , q u e r i e s , D e p a r t m e n t/ A a n d th e n h e s a id 6 0 p l u s VAT t h e s e a r e t h e c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h a t , n o w w h a t is g o i n g t o h a p p e n b e c a u s e n o w t h is i s w h a t M r 10 K a lis il ir a h a s b e e n d o in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e s e a r e t h e q u e r i e s h e w a s r a is i n g w i t h y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f w e g o b e l o w t h a t th e r e s e e m s to b e – w e ll j u s t t o r i g h t o f t h a t b e f o r e w e le a v e t h a t l in e t h e r e s e e m s t o b e s o m e t h i n g s c r a tc h e d o u t , d o y o u r e c a l l w h a t t h a t w a s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I d o n ’ t , I d o n ’ t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s f in e , i f w e th e n g o d o w n to t h r e e t h e r e s e e m s t o b e t h e w o r d s b a n k s t a t e m e n t w h a t d o y o u r e c a ll a b o u t t h a t? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , t h r e e h e w a s d e m a n d i n g fr o m t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n t s t h a t I s h o u l d s h o w h i m t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id h e g iv e a n e x p la n a t i o n f o r w h y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e n e e d s to k n o w t h e m o v e m e n t o f t h e fi n a n c e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll d id n ’t h e h a v e a c c e s s t o t h a t p r e v i o u s ly Page 111 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h r o u g h M r K a l is il ir a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , t h r o u g h M r K a l is i lir a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i n D e c e m b e r a s I h a v e y o u r te s t i m o n y y o u c a n c e l le d M r K a lis il ir a ’s a c c e s s to t h e b a n k a c c o u n t , s o i s Mr v a n W y k t a lk in g a b o u t t h e p e r io d th e r e a ft e r t h e n , h e w a n ts a c c e s s t o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , h e n e e d e d th e b a n k s t a t e m e n t fr o m t h e 1 s t o f J a n u a r y u n ti l t h e 2 0 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y d id h e n e e d t h a t , d i d h e te ll y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I w a s ju s t li s te n i n g t o t h a t m a n , 10 I w a s ju s t li s te n i n g t o h i m b e c a u s e h e w a s j u s t e v e r y w h e r e b u t th e b o t t o m l in e is d e m a n d i n g a c c e s s , h e w a s t r y i n g t o c o m e u p w i t h r e a s o n s a n d I w a s j u s t l is t e n in g t o h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b e lo w t h r e e s e e m s t o b e a fo u r, w h a t – is that correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , i t ’s f o u r, a n d th e n h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t a f te r th a t b y t h e w a y t h e r e h a s t o b e p a y m e n t s , h e is s a y i n g p a y m e n t s f o r a l l t h e s e th in g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : P a y m e n ts f o r ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : For number 5, you see across this a d j a c e n t i s n u m b e r fi v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e l e tt e r s th a t a p p e a r n e x t t o w h a t m a y b e f o u r, b u t is n o t s o c l e a r, b u t u n d e r t h r e e a r e th o s e l e t te r s P M T ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, P M T s t a n d s f o r p a y m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y a n d t h e n th e r e is f iv e a n d th e n t h e r e ’s Page 112 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 fi f t e e n a n d th e n t h e r e ’s 7 2 5 a n d t h e r e ’s 7 5 a n d th e r e i s t o c o m p a n y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d t h a t m e a n ? D o y o u r e c a l l? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n ’ t r e c a l l, I d o n ’ t r e c a l l w h a t th a t mean. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t th e n y o u h a d m o v e d u s to fi v e w h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y a r e t h e th i n g s w h ic h n e e d t o b e p a i d , i s th a t correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I r e a d t h o s e it s e e ms to b e f a c il i ti e s , tr a c t o r, fl o w e r s , g r a s s , g a r d e n i n g e q u i p m e n t , a b l u ti o n u p g r a d e a n d d i e s e l . Is th a t a s y o u r e a d t h e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h a t ’s w h a t h e w a s s a y in g th a t t h e s e a r e t h e t h in g s t h a t h a v e t o b e – t h a t h a s t o b e a t te n d e d to ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r w h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F o r b o t h a ir p o r ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th is is th e b u s i n e s s o f K o r e n e k a w e ’ r e n o w t a lk in g a b o u t , is t h a t r ig h t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: (Laughing) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e n ’ t r e a ll y b e e n f o c u s in g o n th a t y e t i n t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n , b u t a r e w e n o w b a c k t o w h a t K o r e n e k a i s a c t u a ll y d o i n g in t e r m s o f i ts a g r e e m e n t . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : In t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t n o w h e i s d e t a i li n g t o m e n o w w h a t i s t h e a g r e e m e n t . Page 113 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , I m e a n . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s K o r e n e k a i n v o l v e d i n s o m e fa r m i n g o f s o m e s o r t , w h y d id y o u n e e d a tr a c t o r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o .. . ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) CHAIRPERSON: I s t h a t f o r d o i n g s o m e th in g o n th e g r a s s i n th e a ir p o r t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir, y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f w a te r i n g a n d m a y b e c u tt i n g g r a s s a n d s o o n . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 10 T h e tr a c t o r is t o c u t g r a s s i n t h e r u n w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : And in other reasonable areas . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t ’s n o t o u t o f t h e n o r m , o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e t o b e t h in g s t h a t K o r e n e k a w a s i n v o lv e d in a t t h e t i m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 H e w a s s a y i n g t h a t th e s e a r e t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e t o b e a t te n d e d to , w e h a v e t o b u y fl o w e r s fo r t h e a ir p o r ts , w e n e e d t o b u y g r a s s f o r a l l th e a i r p o r ts , ( i n d is ti n c t) i m p l e m e n ta t io n , a b l u t i o n u p g r a d e o f th e a i r p o r ts , d i e s e l f o r t h e tr a c t o r, t h e s e a r e t h e t h in g s t h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t . CHAIRPERSON: T h e s e th in g s M s T la t s a n a m a n y o f th e m w e n t s o outside, so much outside of what you understood you know ground Page 114 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 h a n d l in g t o b e a b o u t . D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d a l l o f th e s e t h i n g s t o b e v e r y m u c h p a r t o f g r o u n d h a n d li n g w h i c h is w h a t y o u r b u s i n e s s , K o r e n e k a , w a s a b o u t in r e g a r d t o t h e a ir p o r t s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir t h e s e a r e t h e d u ti e s t h a t t h e s t a ff o f K o r e n e k a w a s d o in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t m y q u e s ti o n is d i ff e r e n t , m y q u e s t i o n is w h e t h e r w h e n y o u e n t e r e d i n t o o r th e a g r e e m e n t w it h S A E x p r e s s t h e b u s i n e s s th a t K o r e n e k a w a s g o in g t o b e i n v o lv e d i n w a s d e s c r i b e d a s g r o u n d h a n d li n g is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a n d w h e n y o u e x p la in e d t o m e y e s te r d a y i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly, a n d m a y b e it w a s a n o t h e r w i t n e s s , g r o u n d h a n d l in g , it w a s very much about processing passengers from when they come to use a ir c r a f t s , w h e n t h e y w a n t to f ly, t h e y w a n t t o tr a v e l , t h e y c o m e i n to t h e b u il d in g , t h e y n e e d to c h e c k in , t h e i r lu g g a g e n e e d s t o b e c h e c k e d i n a n d t h e y n e e d t o b e ta k e n t o a e r o p l a n e o r t h a t k i n d o f t h i n g , t h a t ’s h o w y o u d e s c r i b e d it , is th a t c o r r e c t , o r d i d I m i s u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t is w h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s s a y in g C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t n o w th is t h i n g o f – t h e s e th i n g s o f fi r e tr u c k s , c u t ti n g g r a s s a n d u p g r a d i n g t h e b u i ld i n g a n d s o o n , d id n ’t t h e y s e e m t o b e v e r y m u c h o u t s i d e o f t h e b u s in e s s o f g r o u n d h a n d li n g a s y o u u n d e r s to o d i t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a i r t h e c l e a n e r s a n d th e g a r d e n e r s M r v a n W y k s a i d th e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h g o v e r n m e n t , Page 115 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h e y a d d i n g s o m e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o f g a r d e n i n g i n t o K o r e n e k a . CHAIRPERSON: After the agreement had been concluded? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e s a i d th is is w h a t g o v e r n m e n t d e c i d e d t o a d d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s h e s a i d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t h a s a d d e d s o m e e x t r a r e s p o n s i b ili t ie s i n to K o r e n e k a , n o t in t o t h e c o n tr a c t , i n t o K o r e n e k a f o r K o r e n e k a t o b e d o i n g , s i n c e K o r e n e k a h a s g o t t h e c l e a n e r s a n d t h e g a r d e n e r s o f t h e a ir p o r t a n d t o c o n fi r m t h a t I e v e n w e n t t o Mr ( i n d is t in c t ) , M r [i n d is ti n c t ] t o l d m e t h e s a m e 10 t h i n g h e n c e n o w h e e v e n g a v e m e t h a t c ir c u l a r t h a t t h is is – t h e s e a r e t h e b u d g e ts t h a t h a v e b e e n lo c a t e d fo r t h e r e s t fo r – f o r S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e n t h e s e o th e r o n e s a r e f o r m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y t o b e d o i n g that – this kind of work. CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o a t l e a s t th e c l e a n i n g p a r t , m a i n te n a n c e a n d m a in t e n a n c e p a r t th a t y o u k n e w a b o u t – y o u k n e w a b o u t t h a t fr o m s o m e – from a certain stage? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r t h i s is w h a t I w a s t o l d a b o u t M r Va n W y k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d s in c e – b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t b e e n t o t h e a ir p o r t r e m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d n o w t h o s e p e o p le t h e y w e r e – t h is t h e w o r k th a t th e y w e r e d o i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 116 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay and… M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d b e in g p a i d b y K o r e n e k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b e in g p a id b y K o r e n e k e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O h s o t h e r e fo r e t h e tr a c t o r f o r c u t t in g g r a s s t h a t is t h e p a r t t h a t w o u l d r e q u ir e t h e tr a c t o r ? The maintenance and the m a in t e n a n c e a n d c le a n i n g p a r t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A n d y o u h a d a c c e p t e d t h a t t h a t w a s p a r t o f w h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e K o r e n e k e ’s r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s a f t e r Mr Va n W y k told you? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I fo u n d th e – i n 2 0 1 6 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : When now I took over I found those r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s b e i n g d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : P e o p le w e r e d o i n g th a t k i n d o f – o f jo b . A n d e v e n t h e s a la r i e s t h e y w e r e p a i d f r o m K o r e n e k e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d – a n d e v e n i f I a s k e d t h e a ir p o r t m a n a g e r, t h e a i r p o r t m a n a g e r e x p la i n e d t o m e t h a t y e s th is a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t h e k n o w s y e s t h is i s w h a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d u p o n . E v e n t h o u g h t h e c o n tr a c t d o e s n o t s a y th a t b u t n o w h e s a y t h a t t h a t i s w h y t h e c o n tr a c t h a s t o b e l o o k e d i n to a n d t h e n t h a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t I g o t Page 117 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 fr o m t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e w a s a n a d d i t i o n o n t h e s u b s id y i n o r d e r t o t a k e c a r e o f t h e s a l a r i e s f o r th e m a in t e n a n c e a n d c le a n i n g s ta ff ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n a d d i ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o a d d i ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t h e s u b s i d y p a y m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W a s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e a g r e e m e n t . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To t h e s c h e d u le t h a t w a s a t ta c h e d o n t h e s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Okay and how many – more or less how many e m p l o y e e s w e r e in v o lv e d i n c l e a n in g a n d m a in t e n a n c e ? O r y o u c a n n o t remember? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir – I w o u l d s a y 3 0 P i la n e s b e r g , 3 0 M a f ik e n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t i s q u i t e a l o t o f p e o p le . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y th e y w e r e a d d e d w i t h o u t a n y i n c r e a s e o n th e 20 – o n th e s u b s i d y t o h e l p K o r e n e k e t o p a y t h e ir s a l a r ie s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a i r. Remember the subsidy – t h e s u b s id y a c c o r d i n g to t h e w a y I s a w it – th e s u b s id y i t i s a – f o r t h e fir s t y e a r i t is 5 1 m i ll io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n I s a y s u b s i d y I a m j u s t r e f e r r i n g t o th e m o n e y t h a t c a m e fr o m D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . Page 118 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s , n o t h e r e w a s n o m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w e n t t o S A E x p r e s s a n d t h e n c a m e to y o u o r c a m e s tr a ig h t t o y o u . I a m j u s t u s in g o n e w o r d f o r a ll o f t h o s e m o n i e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I – n o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o a d d i ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o c o m p l e te t h is li n e o f q u e s ti o n s i f I m a y M s T la t s a n a a b o u t w h a t w o r k K o r e n e k e d id o r d i d n o t d o . D i d K o r e n e k e 10 e v e r e n g a g e in r o u te m a r k e ti n g f o r t h e r o u te s t h a t w e r e fl y i n g i n to t h e a ir p o r ts ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t y o u w il l r e c a l l Ms T l a ts a n a b e c a u s e y o u h a v e l o o k e d a t t h e s u b s i d y s tr u c tu r e p a g e o f th e m a i n a g r e e m e n t. I f w e g o in D D 8 [ a ] t o p a g e 1 5 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y p a g e 1 5 6 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s 1 5 6 o f D D 8 [a ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : A o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s T l a t s a n a if y o u h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t p a g e 1 5 6 20 t h is i s n o t a p a r t ic u l a r ly g o o d c o p y w e h a v e s e e n b e t t e r c o p ie s I c a n t a k e y o u t o o n e b u t I a s s u m e y o u h a v e s e e n t h i s p a g e b e fo r e . Th e s e c o n d h a lf o f th e p a g e d e a ls w i t h w h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m p a n y s u b s i d y i s g o i n g t o b e a n d d o y o u s e e t h e l in e s fo ll o w i n g t h a t s a y : r o u t e m a r k e t in g s u b s i d y P il a n e s b e r g a n d i n y e a r 1 i t is a b o u t 1 4 .8 m il li o n a n d t h e n b e l o w t h a t r o u t e m a r k e t in g s u b s i d y M a f ik e n g a n d a b o u t Page 119 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 8 .8 m il li o n a g a i n . D o y o u s e e th a t? O h s o r r y 1 4 . 8 m il li o n a g a in , d o you see that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is i n e x c e s s o f 2 9 m i ll i o n th a t to t a l a n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u r c o m p a n y n e v e r e n g a g e d i n r o u t e m a r k e ti n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d id r e c e i v e t h a t p a y m e n t o f 2 9 m il li o n n o n e th e le s s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i t w a s p a i d in t o th e a c c o u n t . Ye s 10 C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M s Tl a ts a n a i f w e c a n t h e n g o – I a m c o n s c i o u s o f th e t i m e a n d w h a t w e s t ill n e e d to c o v e r. The r e m a in d e r o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t s ta r t s t o t a lk a b o u t t h e s u c c e s s o f c o m p a n i e s w h o a r e t h e n a p p o i n te d t o r e p l a c e K o r e n e k e f o r – i n r e la t io n t o g r o u n d h a n d li n g a t t h e a ir p o r ts . W e h a v e h a d q u i t e a b it o f e v id e n c e in r e la t io n t o t h o s e a s p e c t s fr o m p r e v i o u s w i t n e s s e s s o C h a ir w i t h y o u r le a v e m y – I p r o p o s e t o a s k s p e c i fi c q u e s ti o n s t h a t a r e p e c u li a r t o M s Tl a ts a n a ’s p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e in r e la t io n t o t h o s e a s p e c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e w e h a v e h a d t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e s e t ti n g o u t o f t h e t i m e a n d th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s o f t h e ir a p p o i n t m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h r o u g h o t h e r w it n e s s e s . CHAIRPERSON: N o t h a t is f in e b u t I a l s o w a n t e d t o m e n t io n t o y o u t h a t fr o m m y o w n s id e I w i ll n o t b e r i g id b y o n e o ’c lo c k i f w e – t h a t w e Page 120 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s t o p a t o n e o ’ c l o c k i f w e n e e d a li t tl e b it m o r e t i m e j u s t t o fi n is h h e r evidence. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: S o w e c o u l d c o n ti n u e i f w e – b y t h a t t i m e w e a r e a b o u t t o fi n i s h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e g o n e x t M s Tl a ts a n a i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t is i n Ex h ib i t D D 8 [ a ] to p a g e 2 3 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 3 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 3 , 2 3 . M s Tl a ts a n a th a t p a g e o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t t h e r e i s a h e a d in g to w a r d s t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e Va lo t e c h a g r e e m e n t . W e h a v e h e a r d a b o u t t h a t a g r e e m e n t i n p r e v io u s t e s ti m o n y. I have a f e w q u e s t i o n s i n r e la t io n t o i t . CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry just before that. m e e ti n g w h e r e s h e w a s r e c o r d i n g ? D i d w e fi n is h w i th t h a t O k a y le t m e j u s t c h e c k . O n w h a t b a s is w a s t h a t m e e ti n g e n d e d ? S o M r Va n W y k s a i d a lo t o f t h i n g s a n d 20 y o u s a i d m o s t o f th e ti m e y o u k e p t q u i e t y o u s a id h e m u s t c o n t in u e . J u s t t e ll u s s o m e o f t h e p o in ts t h a t y o u m a d e d u r i n g t h a t m e e t in g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s a n d t h e n … CHAIRPERSON: If any? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y C h a ir. A n d h e s a id I s h o u l d c o n s i d e r – h e w a s i n s i s t i n g o n m e to c o n s id e r t h e fa c t t h a t h e h a s g o t Page 121 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t w o c r i ti c a l p e o p l e t h a t h a s t o r e c e iv e t h e ir m o n i e s . CHAIRPERSON: That he – that should be paid? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s t h a t s h o u l d b e p a id . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d i f I c o u l d b e o f a s s is t a n c e a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u c o u ld a s s is t w i t h r e g a r d to t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i f I c o u l d r e l e a s e a n d g iv e b a c k the pin codes. CHAIRPERSON: Oh the pin code or password. 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a t h e p a s s w o r d to M r K a lis il ir a t o c o n ti n u e . CHAIRPERSON: For the accountant to get into – access the account. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d id y o u s a y ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d i d n o t s a y a n y th i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e w a s a s k in g y o u t o t h i n k a b o u t t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s a n d I j u s t k e p t q u i e t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d w h a t d id y o u – d i d y o u s a y a n y t h i n g i n r e s p o n s e t o h i s p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u r c l o s e d c o r p o r a t io n s h o u l d e n t e r i n to 20 a c o n tr a c t w i t h h i m f o r f iv e y e a r s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To m y k n o w l e d g e I – i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll I n e v e r s a i d a w o r d r e g a r d in g t o t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I s th e r e a n y p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t o f i m p o r t a n c e th a t y o u m a d e a t t h a t m e e ti n g th a t y o u w a n t t o t e ll m e a b o u t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I n th e … Page 122 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : To h i m t h a t y o u m a d e t o h i m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I n th a t m e e ti n g C h a i r th e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s Br i a n t o e x tr a c t m o r e m o n e y fr o m t h e c o m p a n y a n d m y m a in s t o r y w a s I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u n e e d m o n e y. I do not u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u ta lk in g a b o u t p e o p l e t h a t a r e g e t t in g th e ir s a l a r i e s e v e r y m o n t h t o g e t m o n e y fr o m t h is c o m p a n y a n d I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d – y o u a r e b u s y m a k i n g a r r a n g e m e n ts a n d a ll t h is t h i n g s y o u a r e ju s t in f o r m i n g m e y o u a r e n o t te ll i n g m e – y o u c o m e h e r e t o t e l l m e w h a t t o d o a n d I a m n o t h a p p y a b o u t t h a t . I r e m e m b e r th is s o m e w h e r e w h e r e I 10 w a s n o w e v e n s c o l d i n g h i m t h a t I a m n o t g o i n g t o ta k e h is s t o r y. A n d h e j u s t w a n t e d to – h is p r e s e n ta t io n w a s B a b a d i I a m i n tr o u b l e p l e a s e t h e s e p e o p le t h e y w a n t th e i r m o n i e s t h a t w e p r o mi s e d t o g i v e t h e m . M a k e a c c e s s a v a il a b l e s o t h a t w e c a n p a y t h e m b e c a u s e th e r e is a n o t h e r 1 8 mi ll i o n c o m i n g in F e b r u a r y. S o t h a t is t h e o n e th a t w e w i ll p l a y a r o u n d w i th . CHAIRPERSON: How long did that meeting take if you remember more o r l e s s ? Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I t h in k it is – i t d i d n o t t a k e l o n g le s s t h a n 3 0 m in u t e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o b y th e e n d o f t h e m e e t in g y o u h a d n o t p r o m is e d h i m a n y t h i n g . Yo u h a d n o t a g r e e d t o a n y t h in g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I – n o , n o , I – a s I r e m e m b e r I did not promise him anything. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Because when he was busy talking I Page 123 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 w a s s a y i n g o k a y. O k a y. O k a y. O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: But okay can mean I agree. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o o k a y. M y o k a y w a s to d i s m is s h i m . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S o t h a t h e c a n g e t o u t o f my b a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e a t l e a s t – b e c a u s e I g o t w h a t he wanted to say CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s o k a y. S o t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d w i t h o u t a n y p a r t ic u l a r c o n c lu s i o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir if I r e m e m b e r n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : t h i n k w e s h o u l d s a y. A n d th e r e is o n e fa c t h e r e t h a t y o u I n th e b e g i n n i n g o f th is m e e ti n g w h a t h e m e n ti o n e d t h a t I m a d e Ms K a te a n d t h e g e n t l e m a n a w a r e . He said B a b a d i to b e h o n e s t n o w le t m e b e f a ir t o y o u – I h a v e n o t b e e n f a ir t o y o u a ll t h i s t i m e . L e t m e n o w b e o p e n t o y o u a n d te ll y o u e x a c tly w h a t is s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n . R e m e m b e r t h a t i s w h a t h e s a id . N o w t h a t is w h a t h e s a i d . T h a t I h a v e n o t b e e n fa ir t o y o u p l e a s e n o w I a m h e r e l e t 20 m e ju s t b e o p e n a n d f a ir t o y o u a n d te ll y o u a c t u a l ly w h a t is g o i n g o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t is in t h e r e c o r d e d c o n v e r s a t io n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d I a s k a f o l lo w u p i n r e la t io n to th a t Ms Tl a ts a n a . D id y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t M r Va n W y k t h e n s a i d t o y o u i n t h e Page 124 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 c o u r s e o f th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n t o b e a n e x p l a n a ti o n o f w h e r e t h e m o n i e s t h a t y o u h a d s e e n g o o u t o f t h e K o r e n e k e a c c o u n t a c t u a ll y e n d e d u p ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Yo u r q u e s t io n a g a i n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e b r e a k i t d o w n . Yo u h a d p r e v i o u s l y s e e n a m o u n ts g o o u t o f t h e K o r e n e k e a c c o u n t, c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h a d m a d e e n q u i r i e s o f M r Va n W y k a b o u t w h a t t h o s e m o n ie s w e r e b e in g u s e d f o r, c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w y o u s i t d o w n w i t h a m e e t in g o n t h e 2 0 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e h e s a i d to y o u h e is n o w g o i n g t o b e f r a n k w it h y o u , h e is g o i n g t o t e l l y o u w h a t is r e a lly g o i n g o n , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n h e p r o c e e d s t o t e l l y o u a b o u t m i ll io n s o f r a n d s th a t n e e d t o b e p a i d o r h a v e b e e n p a id t o p e o p l e , c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Did you understand him to be giving you an e x p l a n a t io n fo r w h e r e t h e m o n ie s t h a t h a d b e e n t a k e n o u t o f t h e 20 a c c o u n t p r e v i o u s l y a c t u a ll y e n d e d u p a s o p p o s e d t o t h e r e a s o n h e g a v e y o u p r e v i o u s ly ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir M r Va n W y k ’s s t o r y w a s n o t a d d in g u p . It w a s n o t a d d in g u p . H e w a s j u s t e v e r y w h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e d i d n o t e v e r s a y t o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n I t o ld y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s a p a y m e n t f o r fi r e t r u c k s t h a t w a s a c t u a l ly a Page 125 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 p a y m e n t f o r t h is p e r s o n o r th a t p e r s o n , h e d id n o t s a y a n y t h in g l ik e that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o h e d i d n o t s a y – n o h e d i d n o t say that one. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : According to my memory he did not say that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o – I w a s g o i n g t o d ir e c t y o u t o p a g e 2 3 o f t h e a ff i d a v i t i n D D 8 [a ] . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Agreement. Yo u h a v e a h e a d i n g t h e r e th e Va l o t e c h M s T la t s a n a w e h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h a t I w o u l d lik e to a s k y o u j u s t a f e w q u e s ti o n s . W h o w a s Ms N o th a n d o D u b e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t h a n d o D u b e w a s t h e f a c il i ti e s manager in Koreneke during the year 2015. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d h e r r o l e c e a s e a t K o r e n e k e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s h e r r o l e c e a s e d i n M a y 2 0 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : S h e d id n o t – s h e d i d n o t e x te n d – s h e 20 d i d n o t e x t e n d h e r c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y w a s – h a s e x te n d e d t h e ir c o n t r a c t . S h e d i d n o t e x t e n d h e r c o n tr a c t a n d s h e w a s j u s t t h e r e c o m i n g e v e r y d a y to o ffi c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I t h in k w e h a d e v i d e n c e p r e v i o u s l y th a t y o u d is m i s s e d h e r, is th a t n o t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t i s c o r r e c t I d is m is s e d h e r. Page 126 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d y o u d o t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I do not remember the date but – m a y b e th e 2 2 M a y s o m e w h e r e t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n M a y 2 0 1 6 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t r o l e d id s h e t h e n p l a y in Va l o t e c h t o y o u r k n o w le d g e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o a f t e r s h e l e f t s o m e t w o d a y s a f t e r s h e le f t n o w i n t h e c o r r id o r s I h e a r d t h a t s h e g o t a c o m p a n y a n d h e r 10 c o m p a n y i s b e i n g p a i d – is g o i n g t o b e p a i d i n t h e 1 J u n e f o r h e r t o t a k e o v e r t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o f K o r e n e k e i n M a fik e n g a i r p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And to your knowledge did that payment take place? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A f t e r m y in v e s ti g a t i o n y e s t h a t p a y m e n t d i d t a k e p la c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e r e y o u a b l e in th a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n to e s t a b li s h a n y l in k s b e t w e e n Ms D u b e a n d M r Va n W y k ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w e r e t h e y ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A f te r m y a t t o r n e y M r J u l ia n K n i g h t e n t e r in t o t h e s h e lv e d w a r e h o u s e to c h e c k t h e w h e r e a b o u ts – t o m a k e a f o ll o w u p o n t h i s Va lo t e c h c o m p a n y w h e n is i t r e g is t e r e d is t h e n w h e n n o w w e r e a l is e d t h a t t h e o w n e r o f th is c o m p a n y in i ti a l ly i t w a s th e n a m e o f th e c o m p a n y w a s E s ta l a – L a v e l E s t a v e l a n d i t w a s M r Va n W y k ’s c o m p a n y w i t h th e r e g i s t r a t io n n u m b e r K 2 0 1 3 1 4 9 7 7 8 a n d th e n th is Page 127 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 c o m p a n y th e p e r s o n w h o p u t i t o n t h e s h e lf h i s n a m e is M r Si p h o P h ir i a n d Mr S i p h o P h i r i is M r Br ia n Va n W y k ’s p a r t n e r. And because we c o u l d c o n fir m a g a i n w i t h h is I D n u m b e r – w i t h M r Va n W y k ’s I D n u m b e r t h a t y e s t h e L a v e l E s t a v e l w a s h i s c o m p a n y h i s I D n u m b e r is 8 2 0 8 … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d o n o t n e e d t h a t d e ta il . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y a lr ig h t A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A lr ig h t th a n k y o u . S h o u ld I c o n ti n u e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I w o u l d j u s t li k e to g e t a f e w m o r e d e t a ils 10 in r e l a t i o n t o Va l o te c h . To y o u r k n o w le d g e d id t h e y r e n d e r a n y s e r v ic e s a t M a f ik e n g a ir p o r t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e y h a v e n e v e r r e n d e r e d a n y s e r v ic e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d o y o u k n o w t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e c a u s e I w a s – K o r e n e k e w a s t h e r e r e n d e r in g s e r v ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n ti l w h a t d a te ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : U n ti l 2 0 1 7 i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I w o u ld a ls o l ik e to j u s t d r a w y o u r 20 a tt e n ti o n t o a d o c u m e n t t h a t w e a c tu a l l y r e c e i v e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f yesterday Chair but it has been added to the bundle just for Ms Tl a ts a n a ’s c o m m e n t . Yo u w il l f in d it in E x h i b i t D D 8 [ b ] a n d y o u w i ll fi n d it r i g h t a t t h e b a c k a t p a g e 5 8 4 . C h a ir th is is a n e m a il t h a t w e received. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 128 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m M s P e t u d i a c t u a ll y y e s t e r d a y b u t it w a s n o t d e a l t w i th i n t h e c o u r s e o f h e r e v id e n c e in s o f a r a s th e d o c u m e n t was concerned. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e r e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t Va lo t e c h i n v o i c e d t h e N o r th W e s t D e p a r t m e n t i n t e r m s o f it s a g r e e m e n t w it h S A E x p r e s s t h e in v o ic e c a m e th r o u g h o n a n e m a i l fr o m M r K a l is il ir a a n d i t is f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t I w a n t to a s k M s T la t s a n a w h e t h e r s h e r e c o g n is e s t h e p e r s o n w h o is s e n d in g th is e m a i l a t p a g e 5 8 4 . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir I d o r e c o g n is e t h i s h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o i s t h a t p e r s o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r D a v i d K a lis il ir a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i s th a t e m a il a d d r e s s i n d ic a t e d f o r h i m o n e t h a t y o u w e r e f a m i li a r w i t h ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a i r – I th in k I c a n s a y correct, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s – y o u d i d k n o w h i s e m a il d a v i d @ j d k . ta x ? CHAIRPERSON: No you know this one I am not sure of. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I a m n o t s u r e o f t h is o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e o f h is – t h e n a m e o f h is company or the one he worked at? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o m e a g a i n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e c o m p a n y t h a t Mr K a lis il ir a w o r k e d a t ? Page 129 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s I w a s a w a r e o f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s i ts n a m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e o t h e r c o m p a n y w a s M i n t B o o k s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : a ffi d a v i t . M i n t B o o k s y e s t h a t y o u r e f e r t o in y o u r S o d o e s t h is c o m p a n y J D K a n d P a r t n e r s m e a n a n y t h i n g t o y o u t h a t a p p e a r s u n d e r h i s n a m e i n th e e m a i l? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r d u r in g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e r e a l is e d t h a t t h is o n e t o o is h is c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Thank you. S o – w e r e y o u a w a r e p r e v io u s ly t h a t M r K a li s i lir a w a s i n v o lv e d a t l e a s t o n t h e f a c e o f t h i s d o c u m e n t w i t h Va l o te c h ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a s n o t a w a r e th e fi r s t t i m e I r e a l is e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e o n h o w m u c h is l e f t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u f in is h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t p a r t o f th e r e a s o n I w a n t to k n o w t h a t – t o k n o w 20 y o u r e s ti m a t e i t is b e c a u s e I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o n e c e s s a r i ly r u s h t o o m u c h w h e n I m i g h t s ti ll h a v e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o w h a t is y o u r p r e s e n t e s t i m a t e o f h o w m u c h m o r e ti m e y o u n e e d w i th o u t d o i n g a n y in ju s tic e t o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr o b a b l y 4 5 m in u t e s C h a ir. Page 130 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I c a n s i t a n o t h e r 4 5 m in u te s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h o u ld w e c a r r y o n a n d t h e n b r e a k ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k le t u s j u s t c a r r y o n . I f i t i s – i s th a t fi n e w i t h y o u Ms T l a ts a n a a n d w i th e v e r y b o d y i n v o l v e d ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s e e m s t o b e fi n e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t l e t u s – l e t u s c o n t i n u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t w a n t t o m e n ti o n I a m th e o n ly o n e w h o h a s b e e n s ta n d i n g fo r t h e w h o l e d a y b u t I w il l k e e p i t t o g e t h e r f o r t h e n e x t 4 5 m in u t e s w i th o u t a n y p r o b l e m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you so much. W e – M s T l a ts a n a y o u h a v e c o n fir m e d t h a t d e s p i t e Va lo t e c h r e c e i v i n g a p a y m e n t fr o m t h e N o r t h W e s t t o y o u r k n o w le d g e t h e y d e li v e r e d n o s e r v ic e s a t M a f ik e n g a ir p o r t , c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a I t h e n u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th e r e w a s a p o i n t a t w h ic h y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d to w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 6 c a n y o u t e ll us about that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 I w a s a r r e s t e d o n th e 1 5 D e c e m b e r 2016 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 6 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 0 1 6 y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w e r e y o u a r r e s te d f o r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a s a r r e s t e d f o r r a c k e t e e r i n g it is 4 c h a r g e s I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e m b u t I k n o w t h a t r a c k e t e e r i n g w a s o n e Page 131 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 of them. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o t o p a g e 2 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t i n E x h i b i t D D 8 [ a ] p a g e 2 2 . Yo u i n d ic a te a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 5 8 t h a t y o u w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly c h a r g e d , w h a t w a s y o u r c h a r g e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y I w a s c h a r g e d w i th fr a u d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e b u s i n e s s o f t h e f ir s t r e s p o n d e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s K o r e n e k e , c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e r e y o u g r a n t e d b a il ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n w h a t a m o u n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H a l f a m i l li o n C h a ir, R 5 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d s u b s e q u e n t ly w i t h t h a t case? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s p r o v i s i o n a ll y w i th d r a w n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w a s t h e b a i l m o n e y r e t u r n e d to y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t f o r y o u r r e f e r e n c e I h a v e t h a t a t p a g e 2 8 paragraph 4.85. 20 T h e r e y o u s a y t h e c r i m i n a l m a t t e r h a s s u b s e q u e n t ly b e e n w it h d r a w n a g a i n s t m e a n d th e o t h e r r o le p l a y e r s a r e n o w th e s u b j e c t o f c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n r e s p e c t t o t h e m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g r e fe r r e d t o in t h is a ffi d a v i t . C h a ir w e w ill lo o k i n to t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e . I d o n o t p r o p o s e t o d o i t w i th M s T l a t s a n a y o u w il l r e c a l l a t t h e o p e n in g o f th e a v ia t io n e v i d e n c e I in d ic a t e d t h a t w e h a d t a k e n s te p s t o m a k e c o n ta c t w i t h th e p r i o r it y c r i m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n u n i t . Page 132 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e w il l u p d a t e y o u i n d u e c o u r s e o n t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M s T l a t s a n a I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y t o b e t h a t t h e c h a r g e s a r e p r o v i s i o n a ll y w it h d r a w n , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d th e i r w i th d r a w a l c o m e a b o u t a f t e r y o u h a d g i v e n y o u r v e r s io n o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d o r n o t r e a ll y ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir it i s a f t e r I s u b m it t e d m y version. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e s e c o n d a ff id a v i t t h a t w e h a v e r e f e r e n c e d in t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s i s a n a ff id a v i t th a t y o u h a v e p r o v id e d t o th e H a w k s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n r e la t io n t o y o u r b a il w h o – h o w d i d y o u m a n a g e to c o m e u p w i th h a l f a m i ll io n r a n d fo r t h a t b a i l? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t o o k i t f r o m t h e b a n k a c c o u n t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Yo u r p e r s o n a l b a n k a c c o u n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t h e c o m p a n y ’s A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e c o m p a n y - K o r e n e k e ’s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a n k y o u . T h a t is a t th e e n d o f 2 0 1 6 I a m t r y i n g t o f o l lo w i t i n t h e c h r o n o lo g y. Th e n e x t e v e n t t h a t a p p e a r s Page 133 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 fr o m y o u r a ff id a v i t is a p u r p o r t e d t e r m i n a ti o n o f y o u r a g r e e m e n ts w i t h S A – y o u r a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A E x p r e s s w h ic h o c c u r r e d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W h e r e a r e w e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I c a n ta k e y o u to p a g e 3 0 , 3 0 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll i f y o u g o b a c k o n e p a g e s o r r y j u s t s o th a t you can get the heading. A t p a g e 2 9 y o u w il l s e e a h e a d i n g ‘ T h e t e r m in a ti o n o f th e g r o u n d h a n d li n g a g r e e m e n t’ a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 9 1 10 t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e to a n e m a i l t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d . We can go there. T h e e m a i l is a t p a g e 2 4 5 i n t h e s a m e b u n d l e . N o a p o l o g i e s t h a t is th e o r d e r. Th e l e tt e r i s a t 2 4 2 . Th a t is t h e o n e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p r o c e e d i n g s . I d o a p o l o g i e s . P l e a s e g o b a c k t o 2 3 9 . Th a t is t h e l e t te r of the 13 March please tell us what that says? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e l e t t e r is fr o m S A E x p r e s s t o t h e d ir e c t o r K o r e n e k e Tr a d i n g a n d P r o j e c ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o i n p a r t ic u l a r a t S A E x p r e s s w r o t e t h e le t t e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C E O M r I n a t h i N ts h a n g a . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. And what does it record? does the letter say? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. “ Te r m in a ti o n o f s t a n d a r d g r o u n d h a n d li n g a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n K o r e n e k e a n d Pr o j e c t a n d S A E x p r e s s . T h is le t t e r s e r v e s as c o n fi r m a ti o n of Page 134 of 172 te r m i n a t io n for What 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s t a n d a r d g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s a t P il a n e s b e r g I n t e r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t . Th e a g r e e m e n t s h a l l t e r m in a t e o n th e 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . P le a s e li a is e w i t h t h e n e w ly appointed a ir p o r t management c o m p a n y. Yo u r s f a i t h f u lly. ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u t o o k le g a l s t e p s i n r e s p o n s e to t h is le t t e r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h o s e l e g a l p r o c e e d i n g s ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O n t h a t l e g a l p r o c e e d i n g s w e w e n t t o c o u r t a n d t h e n w e w e r e – b e e n g r a n t e d – th e d r a f t o r d e r s a y s – w h ic h one should I read? “The cancellation by the respondent on the 1 March o f th e g r o u n d h a n d li n g e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n t h e a p p lic a n t a n d t h e r e s p o n d e n t o n 1 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 5 A p r i l . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I m e a n “ 1 5 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 b e d e c l a r e d u n l a w fu l i s h e r e b y s e t a s i d e . I t is h e r e b y d e c l a r e d th a t t h e g r o u n d h a n d li n g 20 a g r e e m e n t e n te r e d i n t o … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d - I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s M s T la t s a n a . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, proceed. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e s e c o n d d e c la r a t o r y – a s I h a v e i t y o u Page 135 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 o b t a i n e d - w a s t h a t t h e g r o u n d h a n d li n g a g r e e m e n t e n te r e d i n to b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d S o u t h A f r i c a n E x p r e s s r e m a in e d b i n d i n g . I s t h a t correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n M s T la t s a n a i f w e g o t o p a g e 3 3 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t i n D D 8 A y o u t h e n d e t a i l th e a g r e e m e n ts th a t w e r e c o n c l u d e d w i t h c o m p a n i e s th a t w e h a v e b e e n c o ll o q u i a l ly r e f e r r in g to a s PA M C O a n d M A M C O . W e h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h t h o s e d e ta il s p r e v i o u s ly i n e v i d e n c e . 10 W h a t I a m i n t e r e s t e d i n – i n te r ms o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e is w h e t h e r PA M C O r e n d e r e d a n y s e r v ic e s i n r e l a ti o n t o e it h e r t h e P il a n e s b e r g o r t h e M a fik e n g A ir p o r ts ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I – I do not know but what I know a b o u t PA M C O is a f t e r m y – a ft e r K o r e n e k a ’s s u s p e n s io n o n 2 5 M a y 2 0 1 7 a n d t h e n i t w a s PA M C O t h a t e n t e r e d . B e fo r e t h e n y e s t h e y c a m e t o t e ll u s t h a t t h e y a r e t h e o n e s t h a t h a v e b e e n g r a n t e d – g i v e n t h e c o n tr a c t t o d o t h e w o r k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n y o u – w h e n e x a c tly d i d y o u m o v e o ff s i te a t t h e a ir p o r t ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e l e tt e r fr o m th e C E O s a id w i th i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n w a s t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e r e is a le t t e r f o r t h e C E O . T h e r e is a le t t e r fo r t h e C E O . I th i n k i t w a s o n 2 5 M a y s o m e w h e r e t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n 2 0 1 7 ? Page 136 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t u n ti l t h a t p o i n t y o u h a d b e e n r e n d e r e d t h e s e r v ic e s a t Pi l a n e s b e r g a n d M a f ik e n g . C o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a y o n p a g e 3 4 p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 0 8 t h a t : “ O n 2 8 J u n e 2 0 1 7 PA M C O w a s p a i d 1 5 .5 5 m il li o n b y t h e s e c o n d r e s p o n d e n t. ” T h a t is a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e N o r t h W e s t D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d y o u a d d : “ D e s p i t e t h e fa c t th a t i t h a s t o d a te r e n d e r e d n o 10 s e r v ic e s in r e s p e c t o f t h e P il a n e s b e r g A i r p o r t a n d knew that the money was due and payable to Koreneka.” B u t I a m ju s t tr y i n g t o g e t c l e a r o n t h e e x t e n t t o w h i c h y o u c a n m a k e t h a t s ta t e m e n t i n r e la t io n t o y o u r k n o w le d g e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g o n th e g r o u n d a t P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t . Yo u r k n o w l e d g e e n d s a t t h e e n d o f M a y 2 0 1 7 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 R i g h t. S o y o u c a n s a y u n t il M a y 2 0 1 7 th e y w e r e n o t r e n d e r i n g t h e s e r v ic e s . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u d o n o t h a v e k n o w le d g e a f te r t h a t p o i n t . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s T l a ts a n a I w o u l d li k e to a s k y o u Page 137 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 n o w ju s t i n s u m m a r y to g o t o a d i a g r a m t h a t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n . Yo u h a v e b e e n s h o w t h i s d i a g r a m p r e v i o u s ly a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t i n E X H I B I T D D 8 B r i g h t a t t h e b a c k . I t is a t p a g e 5 - 8 - 5 . M s Tl a ts a n a y o u h a v e a c o p y i n fr o n t o f y o u . There is also a g r a p h ic a l r e p r e s e n t a t io n th a t is been d is p la y e d in t h e r o o m . Yo u w ill s e e o n t h e t o p l e f t th e r e is a li t tl e w h a t lo o k s li k e a h o u s e r e p r e s e n t in g th e N o r th W e s t G o v e r n m e n t a n d th e n y o u w il l s e e a s e r ie s o f li n e s i n r e d o n t h a t d i a g r a m w h i c h w h e n th is w a s p u t t o g e t h e r w a s i n te n d e d t o d e n o t e p a y m e n t s o u t o f th e N o r th 10 W e s t G o v e r n m e n t a n d y o u w i ll s e e a w h o l e n u m b e r o f li n e s a t t h e t o p – c o v e r in g t h e t o p o f th e p a g e - g o i n g fr o m t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t t o S o u th A fr ic a n E x p r e s s . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e a r e a l s o p a y m e n ts g o i n g fr o m t h e N o r th W e s t G o v e r n m e n t i n to K o r e n e k a . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n p a y m e n t s d o w n o u t o f t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t t o Va l o t e c k , M A M C O a n d PA M C O . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n b e l o w K o r e n e k a t h e r e a r e a s e r i e s o f payments out. M s T la t s a n a th is h a s b e e n p r o d u c e d b a s e d p r i n c i p a ll y o n y o u r a ff id a v i t e v i d e n c e a s w e l l a s c e r t a i n o f t h e e v i d e n c e C h a ir o f o th e r w i t n e s s e s . S o i t i s o n l y f a i r Ms T l a t s a n a c a n o n l y s p e a k t o t h a t o f w h ic h s h e h a s p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e b u t w e th o u g h t i t u s e fu l ju s t fo r s u m m a r y p u r p o s e s f o r u s to g e t a p i c tu r e o f h o w m u c h m o n e y a n d t o Page 138 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 w h o m i t w e n t. S o i f w e t a lk a b o u t y o u r a s p e c ts M s T l a t s a n a y o u c a n c o n f ir m – c a n y o u – t h a t 2 0 6 0 6 4 3 5 m i ll io n - th a t is t h e li n e b e tw e e n t h e N o r th W e s t G o v e r n m e n t a n d K o r e n e k a - th a t m o n e y c a m e in t o K o r e n e k a . C o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e li n e f r o m S o u th A f r ic a n E x p r e s s w h ic h is in t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r d o w n t o K o r e n e k a o f 3 1 m il li o n . C a n y o u c o n fir m K o r e n e k a h a v i n g r e c e iv e d t h a t ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n o u t o f K o r e n e k a th is i s t r a c k e d fr o m y o u r a ff i d a v i t th e r e a s t h e 5 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t w e n t t o ( i n d i s t i n c t) . C o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Another 500 000 that was given a reference m a n a g e m e n t c o n s u l ti n g . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Tw o m il li o n t h a t w e n t to a Mr P e t e r s . Do you r e c o l l e c t t h a t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : AMFS? N i n e m il li o n t h a t w e n t to a n e n ti t y c a ll e d A s I r e c a l l i t t h e o n l y i n d ic a ti o n y o u w e r e g iv e n o f t h a t o n a s t a te m e n t w a s a n e n tr y m o v e m e n t a n d fi n a n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 9 . 9 m ill i o n t h a t w e n t t o N e o S o l u ti o n s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 139 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n th e b a l a n c e o f t h a t i s 2 9 . 1 m il li o n . Do you see that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And you i n d ic a te d there M s Tl a ts a n a as r e ta i n i n g t h a t 2 9 . 1 m il li o n . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l r e c a l l y e s t e r d a y w e h a v e a s k e d fo r a n a c c o u n t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h a t 2 9 . 1 m il l io n a n d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u w i ll s t il l b e p r o v i d i n g t h a t t o u s i n d u e c o u r s e . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d g i v e u s s o m e in f o r m a t io n a b o u t i t i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y. Yo u s a i d a t l e a s t 5 0 0 0 0 0 w a s p a id t o y o u r a s s o c i a t e d c o m p a n y a r o u n d J u n e / J u ly 2 0 1 5 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms T l a ts a n a I a ls o u n d e r s t a n d th a t y o u m a d e a n o t h e r p a y m e n t o u t o f th a t a c c o u n t t o t h e A N C . 2016. Can you – in early C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n t o u s t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s a r o u n d th a t payment? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 C h a ir d u r in g 2 0 1 6 w h e n Mr v a n W y k w a s m a k i n g t h e u p a n d d o w n s a n d w i th a s e r i e s o f c a ll s h e – h e n e e d e d m o n e y b e c a u s e b e f o r e t h e n h e w a s s a y i n g th a t th e A N C h a d to b e p a i d m o n e y a n d t h a t is w h e r e n o w I w a s – I u s e d t o q u e r y h i m b u t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y b u t n o w t h i s ti m e w h e n I – I m a d e t h i s tr a n s a c t i o n b e c a u s e h e w a n t e d to – t o h a v e a c c e s s in t o t h e a c c o u n t a n d I – I d e c i d e d th a t – y o u k n o w – le t m e p a y a ll t h e o u ts t a n d i n g th a t B r ia n w a s Page 140 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t a lk in g a b o u t . S o t h a t w e c a n b e – I c a n b e r e l ie v e d fr o m h i m b e c a u s e t h e p r e s s u r e w a s j u s t t o o m u c h – w a s u n b e a r a b l e w i t h r e g a r d t o th e d e m a n d o f t h e m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: W i th r e f e r e n c e to t h e m e e ti n g th a t y o u h e ld w i th M r v a n W y k a t S p u r R e s t a u r a n t w h e r e y o u r e c o r d e d y o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n w h e r e – w h e n w a s i t w h e n y o u th e n d e c i d e d t o m a k e p a y m e n t s – r e m a in in g p a y m e n ts a n d w h e n y o u h a d t o d e a l w i th t h e q u e s t i o n o f making a payment to the ANC. W h e r e a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t? W h a t t i m e fr a m e a r e w e t a l k i n g 10 a b o u t? W h a t – w h a t t i m e , w h e n , w h i c h m o n t h , in 2 0 1 6 ? T h e m e e ti n g w a s – w a s o n 2 3 J a n u a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 J u n e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y - 2 0 J a n u a r y it w a s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 January 2016? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w w h e n y o u m a d e t h is d e c i s i o n t o m a k e s o m e p a y m e n t s to s o m e p e o p le s o t h a t y o u c a n h a v e n o th in g t o d o w i t h h i m 20 b e c a u s e y o u w e r e – h e w a s g iv i n g y o u t o o m u c h p r e s s u r e . W h e n w a s that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Chair I do not – I do not remember v e r y w e ll b e c a u s e I – w e tr i e d to c h e c k in t h e s t a t e m e n ts . know whether it was … CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you cannot remembe r? Page 141 of 172 I do not 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B e f o r e t h e 2 0 t h o r a f t e r th e 2 0 t h . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u t h i n k i t c o u l d – i t c o u ld b e b e f o r e – i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n b e f o r e t h e 2 0 t h b e f o r e y o u h a d t h e m e e ti n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r C h a ir. I c a n n o t. CHAIRPERSON: L a t e i n t h e y e a r, e a r l y in t h e y e a r, m id - y e a r y o u cannot remember? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No, no, no. I t i s – i t i s e a r ly in t h e y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is e a r ly i n t h e y e a r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d I p r o b e th a t a li t tl e b i t f u r t h e r ? H o w d i d y o u o b ta i n d e ta il s f o r t h e p a y m e n t t o b e m a d e to t h e A N C ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I – I g o t t h e d e t a i ls fr o m t h e A N C R e g io n a l O ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e N o r t h W e s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. L e t u s g o b a c k . I d o n o t – I d id n o t g e t t h e s t o r y c o r r e c tl y. H o w d i d th e id e a o f y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n p a y in g t h e A N C o r y o u p a y in g th e A N C s o m e th i n g a r is e a n d fr o m w h o m d id i t arise and what was the occasion? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir Page 142 of 172 Mr v a n W y k was p u t ti n g 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 p r e s s u r e t h a t w e s h o u ld p a y – w e s h o u l d p u t m o n e y i n to A N C a n d h e w a s p u t t in g p r e s s u r e – e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t i t w a s A N C t h is , A N C t h a t, A N C th is , L u t h u li t h is , A N C t h is . H e w a s ju s t m a k i n g n o is e a b o u t A N C . CHAIRPERSON: E a r l ie r o n w h e n y o u t a l k e d a b o u t y o u r m e e t in g w i th him on 20 January 2016. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a id h e t a lk e d t o y o u a b o u t y o u r r e f u n d i n g h i m a n d Mr K a lis il ir a – I h o p e I a m p r o n o u n c in g t h e s u r n a m e c o r r e c t ly – 10 r e fu n d i n g t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y h a d p a i d a c e r t a i n – a fe w m il li o n s I t h in k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 4 0 0 0 0 0 C h a ir. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 4 0 0 0 0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 4 0 0 0 0 0 – a s I h a v e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , 4 0 0 0 0 0 n o t m i ll io n s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H m . CHAIRPERSON: R400 000 for the ANC 104 celebrations. Now when t h e q u e s t io n o f p a y i n g t h e A N C t h a t w e a r e n o w t a lk i n g a b o u t a r o s e w a s i t i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t m o n e y o r w a s i t s o m e th i n g e l s e ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir M r v a n W y k – o k a y t h e 4 0 0 0 0 0 was the refund … C H A I R P E R S O N : To h i m a n d M r K a lis il ir a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : F o r – f o r ( in t e r v e n e s ) . Page 143 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h i s t i m e h e w a s n o t t a lk in g a b o u t t h a t R 4 0 0 0 0 0 ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No, no. T h is t i m e i t i s n o t a b o u t 400 000. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th is ti m e it is a – a d o n a ti o n to A N C . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h e a s k e d y o u t o m a k e a d o n a ti o n t o th e A N C ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, alright and what did you say to this s u g g e s t io n ? W h a t d i d y o u s a y t o h is p r o p o s a l o r s u g g e s ti o n ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e s e w e r e t h e t h in g s t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g - h e s a i d b e f o r e t h a t th e y s h o u ld b e d o n e a n d t h e n I s a i d – y o u k n o w – l e t m e j u s t p a y th is a m o u n t o f m o n e y s o th a t I c a n b e o u t o f M r v a n W y k ’s b a c k . H e c a n b e o u t – o u t o f m y b a c k . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . So you agreed? S o y o u a g r e e d to p a y a d o n a ti o n t o th e A N C ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r. I – I p a id t h a t m o n e y t o ANC. CHAIRPERSON: D id h e in d ic a te t o y o u h o w m u c h h e w a s s u g g e s ti n g y o u s h o u l d p a y o r d id h e l e a v e t h a t t o y o u ? 20 T h e a m o u n t th a t y o u s h o u l d p a y a s a d o n a ti o n d i d h e m a k e a s u g g e s t io n t o y o u o r d id h e le a v e t h a t t o y o u h o w m u c h y o u w o u l d – h o w m u c h d o n a t io n y o u w o u ld make? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I – I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. r e m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e m e m b e r h i m m a k i n g … . Page 144 of 172 I do not 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta lk i n g a b o u t a n a m o u n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n o t k n o w r e m e m b e r t h a t o n e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. How much did you pay as a donation to the ANC? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O n e m il li o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : R 1 m il li o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 W o u ld th is h a v e b e e n a r o u n d e a r ly – e a r ly i n 2 0 1 6 , a r o u n d mi d - y e a r o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s e a r ly 2 0 1 6 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Early in 2016? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e y o u g o t th e a c c o u n t d e t a ils fr o m t h e R e g i o n a l O ff ic e o f th e A N C . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n y o u p r o v id e u s w i th y o u r a ff i d a v i t in d u e c o u r s e a c c o u n t in g f o r th e 2 9 . 1 m i lli o n t h a t is n o t a c c o u n t e d fo r o n 20 y o u r a ffi d a v i t I ta k e y o u w i ll g e t t h e d e t a i l s f o r w h e n th a t p a y m e n t w a s made? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m o n g s t o t h e r s a n d c a n I a s k y o u t o d a y t o y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n w e r e t h e r e a n y o th e r p a y m e n ts t h a t y o u m a d e t o p o li ti c a l p a r t i e s o r p o l i tic a lly c o n n e c t e d p e r s o n s ? Page 145 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t t o m y m e m o r y C h a ir, n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u w i ll g o b a c k o v e r th e b a n k s t a te m e n ts a n d g iv e u s a f u l l a c c o u n t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a th e r e a r e o n e o r t w o s o r t o f ti e u p q u e s t io n s t h a t I w a n t to p u t t o y o u b u t b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e . Yo u r a ffi d a v i t t o t h e H a w k s t a l k s a b o u t t h r e a t s a b o u t t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d o v e r t h e p e r io d o f y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h K o r e n e k a a n d S o u th A f r i c a n E x p r e s s . C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h o s e ? W h a t – w h a t d id t h e y i n v o l v e ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Chair in the beginning of – in in time. December 2015 no 2016 before … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : That is – can we just locate December 2016 is where you – when you arrested. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is w h e r e w e a r e i n ti m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s b u t I a m g o i n g – I a m g o in g b a c k not to the beginning of … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A li t tl e b i t b e h i n d t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e f o r e th a t , t h a n k y o u . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , b e fo r e th a t . B e g i n n in g o f 2 0 1 6 – J a n u a r y th e r e – s o m e t w o g e n tl e m e n c a m e to t h e o ffic e . I remember t h e o t h e r o n e h i s n a m e – h e w a s s a y in g t h a t h e i s S i p h o . I f o r g o t t h e Page 146 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 o th e r o n e . T h e y w e r e j u s t s o - l o o k i n g s tr a n g e . T h e y w e r e d r iv in g a big Mercedes Benz. T h e y p a r k e d t h e r e a n d t h e n t h e y – t h e y p a r k e d t h e r e i n fr o n t o f t h e o ff ic e o p p o s i t e a n d th e n t h e y c a m e s t r a ig h t i n t o th e o ff ic e a n d t h e y s a i d – t h e y – th e y a s k e d th e l a d y w h o I a m w o r k i n g w i t h t h a t th e y a r e h e r e . T h e y w a n t t o s e e m e a n d t h e ir c a r i t is a G P r e g is t r a t io n a n d I w a n te d to r e s is t b u t I s a i d G o d b e w it h m e . L e t m e j u s t g o a n d h e a r w h a t th e s e p e o p l e w a n t a n d th e s e g e n tl e m e n t h e y s a i d t o m e th a t t h e y c a m e h e r e t o c o m e a n d i n te r v e n e 10 in t o m y m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g w i t h B r i a n v a n W y k – m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Ye s t h e r e is a m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g b e c a u s e n o w B r ia n v a n W y k is a – is e x p e c ti n g m o n e y fr o m K o r e n e k a a n d I a m n o t g i v i n g h i m t h e m o n e y a n d h e i s u n d e r t h r e a t b e c a u s e h e p r o m is e d t o p a y p e o p l e m o n e y a n d th is – t h e s e v e r y s a m e m e n t h e y s a i d t h a t t h e r e is a – th e ir p o r t io n a s w e ll is in t h a t p a c k a g e . I to l d t h e m t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t I d o n o t k n o w y o u . I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t . Ye s Br i a n v a n W y k I k n o w h i m . H e is a G M o f C o m m e r c i a l i n S A E x p r e s s . I h a v e g o t n o d e a li n g s w it h Mr van Wyk. 20 S o I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u g e n t le m e n a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t. I t h in k i f y o u c a n ju s t g o b a c k t o M r v a n W y k a n d fi n d o u t w h a t is h e ta lk in g a b o u t. I d o n o t k n o w. I h a v e n e v e r e n t e r e d in t o a n y b u s i n e s s w i t h M r v a n W y k a n d t h e y – t h e y c h a n g e d t h e ir f a c e . T h e y s ta r te d fix i n g t h e m s e l v e s t o s it p r o p e r ly. CHAIRPERSON: M s H o f m e y r d o y o u w a n t t o d e s c r ib e t h a t f o r t h e Page 147 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 r e c o r d o r n o t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m n o t s u r e I w il l d o it ju s tic e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fi x i n g t h e ir f a c e a n d d o i n g w h a t e v e r t h e y w e r e d o i n g . Wa s i t th r e a te n in g o r n o t r e a lly t h r e a t e n i n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s th r e a t e n i n g C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e o th e r o n e w a s p u t ti n g o n a ja c k e t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d I a m i n th e o ffic e a n d th e y c o m e fr o m t h e c a r. Th e y a r e o n l y h o l d i n g t h e i r – t h e ir p h o n e s a n d t h e n th a t 10 o th e r o n e i s f ix in g a j a c k e t . M a y b e t h e r e i s a g u n t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e t h i n k i n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t is w h a t I w a s th i n k i n g a n d h e w a s b u s y f ix in g th is th i n g . T h i s is ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a w a tc h ? H m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : thing. H e w a s b u s y fi x i n g i t . Th is t h i n g t h a t lo o k s l ik e a – t h a t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th e y w e r e t h r e a t e n i n g m e t h a t – y o u k n o w – w e a r e tr a d i ti o n a l ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W e w il l d e a l w i th y o u o r I d o n o t k n o w. 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h e – t h e w i tn e s s is h o l d i n g h e r w r i s t – r i g h t h a n d w r i s t a n d m o v in g h e r a r m i n a – a s i f s h e is f ix in g o r r e a r r a n g in g h e r w a t c h b u t s h e s a y s i t w a s n o t a w a tc h . I s t h a t r ig h t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s n o t a w a tc h . I t w a s a s k i n th a t is – th a t s o m e b o d y w a s w e a r i n g a r o u n d h e r w r i s t – h is w r is t . I s t h a t r i g h t ? Page 148 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t is a tr a d i t io n a l s k i n t h a t i s w o r n b y A fr ic a n p e o p l e u n d e r c i r c u ms t a n c e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a n a n i m a l s k i n . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A g o a t s k i n o r y o u d o n o t k n o w – s h e e p s k in ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n o t k n o w t h e a n i m a l … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : B u t it lo o k s li k e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o y o u – h e w a s m a k i n g m o v e m e n t s w i t h h is h a n d s s u g g e s t i n g t h a t – h e w a s t o u c h i n g t h is a n i m a l s k i n a n d y o u s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r w a s t h r e a t e n i n g y o u in t e r m s o f a n y tr a d i ti o n a l m u ti ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r b e c a u s e y o u k n o w n o w t h a t o u r A f r ic a n c u l t u r e s a r e s o m a n y d i ff e r e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e is a – h e is a tr a d it i o n a l h e a l e r o r t h is is j u s t a d r e s s i n g o r w h a t o r m a y b e t h a t 20 was a code … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : To c o m e a n d th r e a t e n m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Yo u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . Page 149 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a did you f e e l f e a r fu l in th is in t e r a c ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O h m y G o d . O h m y G o d . I c o u ld n o t even go home and – because they were saying that no – no we are g o i n g t o c o m e n e x t ti m e a n d th e n m a y b e w e w i ll v i s i t y o u a t y o u r house. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : somebody amongst Ms T l a t s a n a y o u – I th in k y o u m e n ti o n e d th e people who approached you i d e n ti fy i n g t h e m s e l v e s w it h t h e n a m e S i p h o . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Where m y dear? Ye s t h a t i s w h e r e I m e n ti o n e d S ip h o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . J u s t p le a s e t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t b e c a u s e it is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t w h a t t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n w a s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir o n t h e n e x t o c c a s i o n r i g h t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e t a l k in g t o y o u … M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Th a t y o u s a y w e r e m a k i n g y o u f e a r fu l . Did you say o n e o f t h e m s a i d h is n a m e w a s S i p h o ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r b e c a u s e h e – h e e v e n t o o k o u t h is I D s o t h a t I s h o u l d c o n fir m h i s ID . I - p l e a s e I d o n o t w a n t t o s e e t h o s e th i n g s b e c a u s e I j u s t w a n t t o d is m is s th e m s o I c a n ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u c a tc h a s u r n a m e w h e n y o u l o o k e d a t Page 150 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 the ID? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u l o o k a t t h e I D o r y o u d i d n o t e v e n w a n t to lo o k a t t h e I D ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I d i d n o t e v e n l o o k a t a n y o f t h e ir th in g s b e c a u s e I j u s t w a n t e d t h e s e g e n tl e m e n t o – t o g o a w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u s a w t h e m … 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a s n o t c o m f o r t a b l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u s a w t h e m a g a i n w o u l d y o u r e c o g n is e them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w i th w h a t l e v e l o f c e r t a i n ty d o y o u r e c a ll t h e p e r s o n ’s f ir s t n a m e b e i n g S i p h o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s th a t o n e b e c a u s e t h e – th e l a d y w h o I a m w o r k i n g w i th i n t h e o ff ic e h e r e m e m b e r e d th a t o n e t h a t – t h e o th e r o n e w a s Si p h o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d t h a t c o n fir m a t io n . D i d y o u ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e p e r s o n i n t h e o ff ic e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir s o m e s i g n i fi c a n c e w e s u b m i t a n d w e w il l c e r t a i n l y in v e s ti g a t e i t f u r t h e r b u t y o u w ill r e c a l l t h a t M r N g w e n y a ’s in t e r a c ti o n … Page 151 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L a t e r i n t h e y e a r is w i t h a n in d iv i d u a l w h o h e r e c a l ls i d e n t i fy i n g h i m s e l f a s S i p h o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h is w il l b e a n a s p e c t w e w ill i n v e s ti g a t e f u r th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d a m o n g th e t h i n g s t h a t M r N g w e n y a s a i d th is p e r s o n to ld h i m w a s t h a t – w a s t h a t th e m o n e y th a t M r v a n W y k h a d – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i f h e u s e d t h e w o r d “ ta k e n ” … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s m o v e d fr o m … CHAIRPERSON: Moved … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r m o v e d o u t , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , m o v e d o u t ; w a s m o v e d o u t t o th e A N C o r f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e A N C … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Or s o m e t h in g along th o s e l in e s according to Mr Ngwenya. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A r e y o u a b l e t o g i v e s o m e d e s c r i p ti o n 20 o f t h i s p e r s o n w h o c a ll e d h i ms e lf S i p h o o r h a s t h e – h a s h is f a c e k in d o f fa d e d fr o m y o u – y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r o r – o r i n t e r m s a l s o o f t h e height and everything? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , t h e o th e r o n e is s h o r t C h a ir a n d t h e n th e o t h e r i s t a l l e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s t a lk a b o u t S i p h o . Is h e t a l l? Is h e s h o r t ? Page 152 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h o w a s S i p h o i n b e t w e e n th e tw o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h o w a s S ip h o b e t w e e n th e t w o of them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o b e c a u s e t h e – th e l a d y w h o I a m w o r k i n g w i t h i n t h e o ff ic e . S h e w a s s a y in g t h a t t h e o t h e r o n e i s Si p h o . H e s a id h e i s S i p h o . S o I d i d n o t r e m e m b e r. C h a ir w h e n y o u a r e fr i g h te n e d y o u c a n n o t e v e n t h i n k p r o p e r ly. I d i d n o t e v e n l o o k a t th o s e 10 people. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t n o w t h e y w i ll – i f y o u r e c o g n i s e – i f y o u s a y i t is s o a n d s o a n d y o u s a y y o u c a n r e c o g n i s e t h e m t h e y w il l s a y o n y o u r o w n e v i d e n c e y o u s a i d w h e n y o u a r e f i g h t in g y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r p e o p l e . H o w d o y o u r e m e m b e r t h e m th e n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I m e a n t h e n a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t i f t h e y – I a s k e d y o u t o d e s c r ib e th e m . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y, y e s . T h e o th e r o n e i s s h o r t . CHAIRPERSON: One of them was short? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s . L i g h t i n c o m p l e x io n … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d a b i t s t o u t . CHAIRPERSON: I s th e r e a n y th i n g o n h i s f a c e o r a n y th i n g t h a t s t o o d o u t f o r y o u t h a t w o u ld s t il l b e t h e r e i n h i s – o n h is f a c e i f y o u s a w – saw them on anyone of them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. Page 153 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h i n g s to o d o u t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : No C h a ir not according to ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: But that was – that was what two years ago – three years ago? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t w a s 2 0 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: When you saw them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t i s 2 0 1 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e m ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 0 1 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly s e e t h e m a g a in ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Why would you be confident that you can recognise t h e m q u i te w e ll t h r e e y e a r s la t e r w h e n y o u s a w t h e m o n c e a n d t h e a t m o s p h e r e w a s – I t h i n k a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u s a y l ik e y o u w e r e fi g h ti n g ? W h y – w h y d o t h i n k y o u w o u ld b e a b l e t o r e c o g n is e if y o u were shown some people and you were asked whether they are among them? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 C h a ir I s li g h t ly w il l – s li g h tly I w i ll r e c o g n is e b u t i t – d o n o t b e c o n fir m a t io n o r m a y b e I s h o u l d j u s t g o w it h it b u t I – I t h i n k s li g h t ly I … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u th in k y o u h a v e s o m e c h a n c e th a t y o u c o u ld r e c o g n is e t h e m ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 154 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d Ms T l a ts a n a t h a t w a s – I a s k e d y o u w h a t t h r e a ts y o u h a d r e c e i v e d . T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t e x a m p l e that you gave. Were there any others? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r. T h e o th e r o n e – th e o t h e r o n e I a t t e n d e d a f u n e r a l in M a f i k e n g a n d o n e g e n t l e m a n w h o – h e i s a h u s b a n d to m y p r e v i o u s b o o k k e e p e r – h e – h e c a m e t o m e a n d s a i d w h a t a r e y o u d o i n g h e r e i n th e f u n e r a l . I s a i d w h a t d o y o u m e a n . I a m a tt e n d i n g a f u n e r a l . H e s a y s d o y o u n o t k n o w t h a t – d o y o u n o t k n o w that Supra needs your head. 10 H e w a n ts t o k il l y o u . W h y – w h y d o e s h e k il l m e ? N o th e y s a y y o u r a n a w a y w it h t h e a ir p o r t m o n e y a n d t h e n t h e o th e r o n e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s T la t s a n a b e fo r e y o u g o t o t h e l a s t o n e I j u s t w a n t t o lo c a t e u s i n ti m e . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o g o t h e r e b u t a s I h a v e i t in y o u r a ff i d a v i t t o t h e H a w k s y o u s a i d t h a t t h a t fu n e r a l w a s i n a b o u t June 2017 is that – does that accord with your memory? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u r t h ir d e x a m p l e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e t h ir d e x a m p le w a s – t h e th ir d o n e w a s i n – o n m y p h o n e . I w o u l d r e c e iv e a s e r ie s o f c a l ls te ll in g m e th a t 20 ja w e a r e s e e i n g y o u . Yo u a r e d r i v i n g th is c a r. W e c o m e fo ll o w i n g y o u . Yo u a r e d r e s s e d l ik e t h i s a n d y o u a r e a b o u t t o e n t e r y o u r – y o u r h o u s e . T h e n t o m o r r o w – w e a r e h e r e a t y o u r d a u g h te r ’s s c h o o l a n d s h e is d r e s s e d li k e t h i s . S h e is e n t e r i n g a n d y o u a r e g o i n g to w a i t f o r h e r w h e n s h e c o m e s o u t o f s c h o o l a n d th e n t h is – a n d t h a t g e n tl e m a n h e w a s Page 155 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 a d d r e s s i n g h i m s e l f a s S i p h o a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e w h o w a s s e n d in g y o u m e s s a g e s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th e p h o n e c a ll s . H e w a s p h o n i n g m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : P h o n e c a l ls ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. H e w a s c a ll i n g m e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Any SMS’ – no SMS’ ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s a n d S M S ’ . CHAIRPERSON: And SMS’? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e w a s s a y in g – y o u s a i d h e w a s S ip h o ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s h e w a s s a y in g th a t h e is S ip h o . CHAIRPERSON: In t e r m s o f w h a t h e s a i d w a s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t h e s a i d o r w r o t e to – i n th e S M S ’ t h a t s u g g e s t e d t h a t h e w a s o n e o f t h e t w o p e o p l e th a t h a d m e t y o u ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e – t h a t o n e o f t h e t e le p h o n e h e w a s t e ll i n g m e t h a t h e h a s b e e n s e n t b y t h e p e r s o n t h a t I r a n a w a y w i th – w i t h h is m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d y o u k n o w t h a t th a t p e r s o n li v e s i n 20 Johannesburg area. CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h e s e p e o p le th e y n e e d t h e ir m o n e y s o n o w t h e y s a i d I s h o u l d c o m e a n d k i ll y o u . N o w f o r m e n o t to k il l y o u w h a t a r e y o u g o in g t o g iv e m e i n r e tu r n . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. Page 156 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I s a id w h y s h o u l d I h a v e t o g iv e y o u m o n e y, h e s a id n o y o u n e e d t o p u t u p a p r ic e a n d t h e n I s a id o k a y f in e p r i c e , th e n g iv e m e t h e p r i c e , h o w m u c h d o y o u w a n t a n d th e n h e w a s s a y in g th a t h e w a n ts b e t w e e n o n e m il li o n a n d o n e p o i n t f iv e m i ll i o n , a n d t h e n I s a id to h i m o k a y y o u c a n g o a h e a d w i th y o u r k il li n g , I a m n o t p a r t o f t h a t , t h a t ’s y o u r g a m e . A n d h e w a s c a ll in g m e , h e w a s te ll i n g m e th a t h e is g o i n g t o g o t o m y d a u g h t e r ’s s c h o o l , I s a id g o a h e a d , b e k il li n g is t h e r e a n y b o d y th a t i f h e w a n ts t o k il l y o u a r e t e l li n g t h e m t h a t I w a n t t o k il l y o u , k il l i f y o u k il l , t h a t’s w h a t I t o ld h i m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h is s a i d a ls o i n s m s m e s s a g e s , t h e s e th r e a ts o f k il li n g a n d s o o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r, t h e r e c o r d i n g s I g a v e t h e m t o , I r e p o r te d th e m a t t e r to t h e M a fe k i n g P o lic e S t a ti o n C h a i r a n d to B r i g a d ie r K le i n h a n s , h e r e fe r r e d t h e m a t t e r t o , h e w a s t h e r e , h e c a l l e d h is s u b o r d in a t e s t o c o m e a n d ta k e t h is m a t te r, u p t o t o d a y C h a ir I h a v e not hear anything. I c a ll e d th e C h i e f H a w k s i n P o tc h e fs tr o o m a n d i n M a f e k in g , n o b o d y c a m e . CHAIRPERSON: Nothing has happened? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: D i d t h e y ta k e a s ta t e m e n t f r o m y o u a t t h e p o l ic e s t a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r t h e y d id a n d a s w e ll a s t h e recordings. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a s w e ll a s t h e r e c o r d i n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. Page 157 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: O h y o u r e c o r d e d th e s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s , o r t h e s e r e c o r d i n g s t h a t w e w e r e u s i n g e a r l ie r, w h i c h r e c o r d in g s a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : E x c u s e m e C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h r e c o r d i n g a r e y o u s a y in g t h e y a ls o t o o k ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : The recordings of Sipho of these death threats I recorded it as well. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y s o y o u h a n d e d t h o s e o v e r t o t h e p o lic e a t M a f e k in g ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: When was that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I n 2 0 . . . CHAIRPERSON: 17? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 2 0 1 7 y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t h e t h r e a ts w e r e h a p p e n i n g ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s i t w a s b e g in n in g o f 2 0 1 7 . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u s a y u p t o n o w n o b o d y fr o m th e p o l ic e h a s e v e r c o m e b a c k t o y o u t o s a y h o w f a r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : 20 N o b o d y C h a ir a n d I t r i e d t o c a l l , I e v e n c a ll e d t h e C o m m i s s io n e r fr o m P o t c h e f s t r o o m , h e s a i d t o m e I s h o u l d g o b a c k t o M a f e k in g P o l ic e S t a ti o n , w h o a m I g o i n g t o a s k i n M a f e k in g P o l ic e S t a t i o n s o I s a i d . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h o t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n o ff ic e r w a s who was assigned to the case or were you never told? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a s n e v e r t o l d C h a ir a n d e v e n t o Page 158 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 come back to me to give me the case number I never got the case n u m b e r b u t I u n d e r s t a n d m y i n v e s ti g a ti n g t e a m m a n a g e d t o e n d u p g e t t in g th e c a s e n u m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e p o li c e o ff ic e r w h o t o o k t h e s ta t e m e n t f r o m y o u w h a t w a s h is n a m e , o r h e r n a m e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e i s K o l o n e l – o h my g o o d n e s s , I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r h i s n a m e . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u c a n r e c o g n is e h i m i f y o u g o i n to t h a t p o l ic e s t a ti o n ? 10 MS BABADI SYBIL T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir because Br ig a d i e r K l e i n h a n s c a ll e d h i m t o e n t e r t h e o ff ic e a n d t o t a k e a s t a t e m e n t f r o m me. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ms Hofmeyr do you know whether there is a n y th in g th a t t h e C o m m i s s io n m a y h a v e s t a r t e d d o i n g t o tr y a n d fi n d o u t h o w c o m e a b o u t c l o s e to t w o y e a r s n o b o d y h a s e v e r c o m e b a c k t o h e r t o s a y w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g a b o u t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Chair we haven’t, as matters stand, as I have it , t h i s is a c t u a l ly t h e f ir s t t i m e th a t c e r t a i n l y w e ’r e h e a r i n g a b o u t i t , w h a t w e h a v e f o l lo w e d u p o n a r e th e c r i m i n a l c a s e s t h a t h a v e b e e n 20 o p e n e d in r e l a ti o n to t h is w h o l e m o n e y la u n d e r i n g s c h e m e , t h a t is t h e r e s p e c t i n w h ic h w e h a v e r e c e i v e d th e r e p o r t t h a t I m a k e r e f e r e n c e to b u t t h e r e ’s n o r e a s o n w h y w e s h o u l d n ’ t a s k f o r a n a c c o u n t o n t h i s a s w e ll , s o w e w i ll p u t t h a t in p r o c e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I th i n k w e s h o u l d I m e a n th r e a ts o f t h i s n a tu r e a r e v e r y s e r i o u s t h r e a ts . Page 159 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f s o m e b o d y g o e s t o t h e p o lic e s ta t io n a n d o p e n s a c a s e a n d a y e a r g o e s b y w i t h o u t a n y b o d y fr o m t h e p o li c e s ta t io n s a y in g a n y t h i n g t o h i m o r h e r i s j u s t t o t a ll y u n a c c e p t a b le , n o w i t ’s about two years. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I m e a n t h is i s w h y p e o p l e l o s e c o n fi d e n c e in t h e p o li c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s u n a c c e p ta b l e . I m e a n t h e y m a y h a v e d o n e 10 s o m e t h i n g b u t th e y h a v e n ’ t to l d h e r a n d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y h a v e n ’ t t o l d h e r w h a t ’s g o i n g o n is u n a c c e p t a b l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir, w e w i ll c e r t a i n l y f o ll o w i t u p . CHAIRPERSON: h a p p e n in g . J a , p l e a s e f o ll o w u p a n d le t m e k n o w w h a t ’s Ja, thank you. W e ll y o u h a v e h e a r d w h a t I s a i d M s Tl a ts a n a , th e C o m m i s s i o n w i ll tr y a n d f in d o u t e x a c tl y w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g b e c a u s e i t ’s u n a c c e p t a b l e t h a t y o u a r e k e p t i n t h e d a r k f o r s o l o n g , a c t u a ll y th a t i t t a k e s s o l o n g is a ls o q u i t e a m a t t e r f o r c o n c e r n t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n t a k e s s o l o n g , n o b o d y h a s b e e n a r r e s t e d a n d t h e y h a v e n o t to l d y o u t h a t y o u h a v e n o c a s e t h e r e f o r e n o b o d y w il l b e a r r e s t e d , 20 a n d y o u a r e s i m p l y n o t i n f o r m e d a t a ll o f w h a t’s h a p p e n in g w h e n y o u h a v e la i d a c o m p la i n t a b o u t s u c h a s e r io u s m a t te r. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a i r a n d e v e n in t h e v e r y s a m e p o li c e s ta t io n i n M a f e k in g P o li c e S t a t io n w h e n I w a s a r r e s te d o n e o f th e c o n d i ti o n s w a s to r e p o r t e v e r y w e e k a t th e p o li c e s ta t io n a n d I r e p o r t e d u n t il A u g u s t a n d n o w e v e r y w e e k I h a v e to r e g is t e r, t h a t r e g is t e r, t h o s e Page 160 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 p a g e s w h e r e I w a s d o i n g m y r e g is t e r C h a ir th e y d is a p p e a r e d fr o m t h e fi le a n d t h e p u r p o s e w a s I s h o u l d b e a r r e s t e d b e c a u s e i f n o w y o u a r e r e g is t e r in g a n d n o w t h e p a p e r s d is a p p e a r e d , f o r tu n a te ly I h a d a b a c k u p b e c a u s e e v e r y t i m e w h e n I g o t o r e g i s t e r I w o u l d g o w i t h a d ia r y b o o k , w h e n t h e y s i g n th is p a p e r t h e y s i g n e v e n m y d i a r y b o o k , t h i s b o o k w a s m y w a y o u t , a n d e v e n in t o w n C h a i r I a m b e i n g f o l l o w e d . C h a ir I a m n o t s a f e , e v e n w h il e I’ m s i t ti n g h e r e I a m n o t s a fe . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t y o u d e c id e d t h a t y o u w o u l d c o m e fo r w a r d a n d g i v e e v i d e n c e d e s p i t e n o t f e e li n g s a f e a n d d e s p i t e a ll t h e th r e a ts . 10 W h a t I m e a n is y o u a r e p r e p a r e d to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n g e t s y o u r e v id e n c e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir i n my c u s t o m w h e n a f a th e r, w h e n a m a n s p e a k s w e w o m e n w il l lis t e n , y o u c a ll e d m e a n d I h a d to obey you and come. C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , m m m , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : A n d t h a t is t h e m i s t a k e th a t I m a d e w i t h M r v a n W y k b e c a u s e n o w I w a s lis t e n i n g t o h i m , o b e y i n g t o h i s in s t r u c t i o n s o n l y t o fi n d t h a t n o w h e t o o k a d v a n t a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M s H o f m e y r ? 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir j u s t o n e o r t w o c o n c lu d in g q u e s t io n s , t h e y a r e s m a l l a s p e c ts b u t t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly g o i n g to b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e e v id e n c e o f M s Vi lj o e n a n d s o Ms T l a ts a n a i s g o in g to b e a s k e d o n e o r t w o q u e s t io n s i n r e l a ti o n t o th e m . Ms Tlatsana you h a v e a f il e n e a r y o u w h i c h i n c l u d e s M s V ilj o e n ’s e v i d e n c e . C h a ir y o u s h o u l d a ls o h a v e y o u r s , i t ’s a s o f t fi le . Page 161 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 CHAIRPERSON: I n fr o n t o f m e I d o n ’t h a v e a n y o t h e r f il e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I th i n k y o u r r e g is t r a r in d i c a t e d i t w o u ld b e p u t there yes. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i t h a s n ’ t b e e n e n t e r e d in t o t h e e v i d e n c e y e t , w e h a d h o p e d t o h a v e M s Vi lj o e n t o d a y ( b r e a k i n a u d i o ) t h r e e p a g e s th a t I w o u l d l ik e t o a s k fo r M s T la t s a n a ’s c o m m e n t o n b e c a u s e s h e k n o w s w h a t Mr v a n W y k ’s s i g n a t u r e l o o k s li k e , g iv e n th a t s h e h a s s ig n e d a g r e e m e n ts w it h h i m . 10 I p r o p o s e t h a t i t b e e n te r e d i n t o t h e record as EXHIBIT DD9. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e fi le c o n ta i n i n g M s K a l a n d r a Vi lj o e n ’s s ta t e m e n t w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T D D 9 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Tl a ts a n a i f y o u w il l g o i n to t h a t b u n d l e , D D 9 , to p a g e 6 4 . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W h i c h o n e is 6 4 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 4 , y o u w il l s e e it i n th e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r o f e a c h o f th e p a g e s , t h e y ’ r e K V a n d t h e n t h e y h a v e a n u m b e r a f te r t h e m , i t w il l b e u n d e r t h e ta b 7 , h a v e y o u g o t t h a t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y, o k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f y o u t u r n th a t p a g e t o l a n d s c a p e y o u w i ll s e e a s ig n a t u r e i n t h e b o t to m l e f t h a n d c o r n e r, d o y o u r e c o g n is e t h a t s i g n a t u r e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o s e s ig n a tu r e i s it ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r Br i a n v a n W y k C h a ir. Page 162 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w c e r ta in a r e y o u o f y o u r a b il i ty t o r e c o g n is e h is s i g n a t u r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t’s i n t h e c o n tr a c t , t h e c o n tr a c t fo r K o r e n e k a t h a t w e b o th s i g n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a v e y o u s e e n h i m s ig n a n y t h in g e ls e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s in m y – y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t e ls e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o , n o , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r, h o w c a n I s a y i t . W h a t d i d h e s a y, y e s t h e r e w e r e l e tt e r s t h a t h e w r o t e f o r m e i n 10 t h e o ffi c e a n d t h is w a s h is s i g n a t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e t o 6 5 .. .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e f o r e y o u t u r n o v e r y o u d o n ’t i n te n d to g e t h e r t o r e a d w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t r e a d s t h e r e o r is t h a t – y o u w a n t to d o t h a t w i t h Ms Vi lj o e n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s m y i n te n ti o n C h a ir, a s I h a v e i t M s Tl a ts a n a h a s n o p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f th is p a g e , M s Vil jo e n w il l e x p l a i n to u s in h e r e v i d e n c e w h a t i t i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m a y b e w e m u s t j u s t r e a d it s o t h a t w h o e v e r r e a d s t h e tr a n s c r i p t c a n a s s o c i a t e t h e d o c u m e n t w h i c h h a s g o t th a t s i g n a t u r e 20 w i t h t h e w r i ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e , r ig h t . S o j u s t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s in b u n d l e D D 9 a t p a g e 6 4 t h e r e is a p a g e b e a r in g a d a t e o f 0 1 . 0 5 .2 0 1 5 a n d o n th a t p a g e is w r i t te n R 2 m i ll io n r e c e i v e d b y B T v a n W y k a n d th e n t h e r e s e e m s t o b e a n u m b e r, M f o r m o b i l e o f – I w o n ’ t r e a d t h a t o u t f o r p r i v a c y p u r p o s e s b u t w e c a n s e e i t o n th e p a g e , a n d t h e n b e lo w th a t o n Page 163 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 t h e l e f t is th e s i g n a t u r e Ms T la t s a n a t h a t I’ v e a s k e d y o u to i d e n t i fy correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u ’v e i d e n t i fi e d i t a s b e l o n g in g to ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r Te b o g o v a n W y k , B r i a n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f y o u t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e to 6 5 y o u w i ll s e e a n o t h e r p a g e s i m i la r t o t h e p r e v io u s o n e , t h is o n e a g a i n h a s a d a t e , 7 .0 5 . 2 0 1 5 R 2 m il li o n r e c e i v e d b y B T v a n W y k a n d t h e n t h e s a m e n u m b e r r e c o r d e d t h e r e a n d d o y o u r e c o g n i s e a s i g n a t u r e o n th a t p a g e ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o s e s ig n a tu r e i s it ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r Br i a n Te b o g o v a n W y k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d if y o u g o o v e r la s t ly t o t h e th ir d p a g e in t h a t s e q u e n c e , p a g e 6 6 o f B u n d le D D 9 a g a i n a p a g e w i t h a d a t e a t t h e t o p 0 6 . 0 9 . 2 0 1 5 R 5 m il li o n r e c e i v e d b y B T v a n W y k , t h e s a m e m o b il e n u m b e r a n d b e l o w i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e d o y o u i d e n t i fy t h a t s ig n a tu r e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o s e s ig n a tu r e i s i t? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Te b o g o B r ia n v a n W y k C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. M s Tl a ts a n a a ls o r e l e v a n t t o Ms Vi lj o e n ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t w i ll c o m m e n c e o n M o n d a y, c a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t t h e i n v e s ti g a to r w h o w a s a s s i s ti n g y o u in y o u r c a s e , w h a t w a s h is name? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W h i c h c a s e my d e a r I h a v e g o t t h r e e Page 164 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 in v e s t i g a t o r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h y o u h a v e a s e r ie s o f c a s e s , I d o a p o l o g i s e , t h e o n e i n v o l v i n g y o u r c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t a g a in s t M r v a n W y k w h o w a s t h a t i n v e s t ig a t o r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : O k a y i t ’s M a g o s i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , t h a t ’s i n t h e H a w k s a n d w a s t h e r e a f o r e n s ic in v e s t i g a t o r w h o a s a s s i s ti n g C a p t a i n M a g o s i . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t ’s M r J a n J u d e e l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u d e e l , h o w d o y o u s p e ll t h a t J u d e e l? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J - u - d - e - e - l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Now to your knowledge does he h a v e a n o ff ic i a l p o s it i o n in t h e H a w k s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I d o n ’t k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w, y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r h e ’s e m p l o y e d i n t h e p o lic e fo r c e o r p r io r i ty c r i m e in v e s t i g a t io n u n it ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I k n o w t h a t h e u s e d to b e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U s e d to b e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w w h e r e h e c u r r e n t ly i s ? 20 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t o f m y k n o w le d g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h a s h e e v e r r e l a y e d t o y o u a n in t e r a c ti o n t h a t h e h a d w i t h M s Vi lj o e n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h a t ’s w h a t h e s a i d h i m a n d M s M a g o s i w e n t t o m e e t M s Vil jo e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t ’s j u s t p a u s e th e r e , w h o is M s M a g o s i ? Page 165 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : T h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ff ic e r fo r t h e c u r r e n t c a s e t h a t is a t M a f e k in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d h e s a y a b o u t h i m a n d M s M a g o s i ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : M r . .. ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr J u d e e l y e s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e s a i d t h e y w e n t to ta k e a s t a t e m e n t fr o m Ms Vil j o e n a n d th e n h e s a i d s h e i s b u s y g iv i n g th e m d i ff e r e n t s t a te m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t a ll y o u r e c a ll ? 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : J a , t h a t i s a l l t h a t I r e c a ll . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n th a t w a s t h a t h e g a v e y o u th a t i n fo r m a ti o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r, I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r. I a c t u a ll y d o n ’ t k n o w b e c a u s e h e w a s g iv in g m e i n fo r m a t i o n e v e r y t i m e a f te r m o n t h ly h e w i ll b e g iv i n g m e a r e p o r t o f w h a t t h e y have done. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e n I j u s t n e e d to a s k y o u f o r c o m p l e ti o n s a k e , Mr T h a b e n g , w h o w a s o n e o f t h e m e m b e r s w h o y o u a d d e d t o th e c lo s e c o r p o r a ti o n , d id h e d is p u te h is r e s ig n a t io n fr o m t h e c o r p o r a t io n a t 20 a l l? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : H e w r o t e a l e tt e r a n d – t o r e s ig n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e w a s n ’ t i n t h e s a m e c a t e g o r y a s M s P e r r y w h o s u g g e s t e d t h a t s h e h a d b e e n u n la w f u l ly o r fr a u d u le n tl y r e m o v e d fr o m t h e r e g is t e r ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o h e d i d i t o n h i s o w n . Page 166 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e d id i t o n h is o w n , a n d w a s t h e r e a n y li ti g a t i o n a g a in s t y o u t h a t h e e m b a r k e d u p o n ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s – t h e r e w a s a li ti g a ti o n t h a t h e s a i d h e is s ti ll a m e m b e r o f K o r e n e k a , s o m e th in g li k e th a t i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But then, can I just get clear because I – my q u e s t io n w a s d i d h e d is p u t e h is r e s i g n a ti o n a n d a s I h a v e i t y o u r a n s w e r w a s n o , b u t th e n I a s k e d w e l l h a s h e l i ti g a t e d a g a i n s t y o u a b o u t it a n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r a n s w e r t o b e y e s , a n d i t r e l a te d t o th e f a c t th a t 10 h e w a s s ti ll a m e m b e r, c a n y o u c l a r i fy th a t f o r u s ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Mr T h a b e n g r e s ig n e d fr o m t h e c o m p a n y, h e w r o t e a l e t te r a n d t h e l e tt e r w a s a d m i t te d t o t h e o ff ic e , a n d l a te r a f te r a y e a r n o w w h e n w e a r e i n c o u r t I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t n o w h e s a y s n o w h e w a n ts t o b e p a r t o f t h is p r o c e e d in g s o f – p r o c e e d in g s in t h e c o u r t b e c a u s e n o w h e w a s p a r t o f – h e w a n ts t o b e p a r t o f t h is w h o le t h i n g s o t h a t h e c a n g e t h i s p o r ti o n o f s h a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h p r o c e e d i n g s w e r e t h o s e ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : We were in court I don’t remember w h e t h e r i t’s t h e fir s t m a t t e r, h o w m a n y c a s e s h a v e w e h a d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W h o a n d w h o w e r e i n c o u r t , w h o a g a in s t w h o i n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s , j a t h e p r o c e e d i n g s a b o u t w h ic h y o u w e r e i n c o u r t , w h o had brought them against whom? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I t ’s M s P h ir i a g a i n s t m e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y w h e n t h a t li t ig a ti o n w a s g o i n g o n y o u s a y t h a t M r T h a b e n g a ls o i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e w a n t e d t o b e p a r t o f t h e c a s e ? Page 167 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e h e w a s , h is a tt o r n e y w a s s e n d i n g . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t te r s . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : W a s c o m m u n i c a t in g w i t h my a t to r n e y s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t b u t if m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll h e w a s s a y i n g th a t h e is s ti ll p a r t o f th e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, but th e r e was correspondence you c a n ’t remember everything that was said in the correspondence. M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t p a r t o f i t w a s th a t h e w a s c o n te n d i n g th a t h e w a s s t il l p a r t o f y o u r – o f K o r e n e k a ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t d i d h e b r in g p r o c e e d in g s h i m s e l f o r h e j u s t – h is la w y e r j u s t s e n t le t t e r s , d i d h e i n s ti t u te c o u r t p r o c e e d in g s , M r Thabeng? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : N o t u p to m y k n o w l e d g e n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, M s T la ts a n a i n c o n c l u s i o n fr o m m y s id e c e r t a i n l y w e u n d e r s t a n d i t t o b e t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u a r e 20 s t il l s e e k in g p a y m e n t f r o m t h e N o r th w e s t G o v e r n m e n t i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is a g r e e m e n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u i n d ic a t e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w e r e t o ld b y M r v a n W y k t h a t a s a p a r a s t a ta l S o u t h A f r i c a n E x p r e s s d o e s n ’ t n e e d to g o t h r o u g h a t e n d e r p r o c e s s , d o y o u r e c a l l Page 168 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 that? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u w e r e n o w t o b e t o l d th a t S o u t h A f r i c a n E x p r e s s m u s t g o o u t o n t e n d e r b e fo r e i t g r a n t s t h e c o n tr a c t o f t h e t y p e t h a t y o u g o t , a g r o u n d h a n d l i n g c o n tr a c t , a n d y o u k n o w a s a fa c t th a t p r o c e s s w a s n ’ t f o l l o w e d b e f o r e y o u r c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d w h a t w o u ld b e y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h e p r o p o s i ti o n th a t y o u r c o n tr a c t i s u n l a w fu l? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I c a n ’ t c o m m e n t o n t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n ’ t . 10 M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I r e a lly c a n ’ t c o m m e n t o n t h a t , I d o n ’ t w a n t to b i n d my s e l f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n ’ t . I f y o u w e r e p e r s u a d e d th a t i t w a s u n l a w f u l t o h a v e c o n c lu d e d t h a t a g r e e m e n t w i th y o u r c o m p a n y w i t h o u t a n y te n d e r p r o c e s s h a v i n g b e e n f o ll o w e d I a s s u m e , b u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u r c o m m e n t o n i t , y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e a b a s i s fo r c o n t in u in g t o p u r s u e p a y m e n t o u t o f t h e N o r t h w e s t G o v e r n m e n t o r S o u t h A f r i c a n E x p r e s s , is that correct? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : I w a s a s k in g fo r t h e p a y m e n t i n r e l a ti o n t o th e c o n tr a c t t h a t i s a t p r e s e n t w i t h u s w i t h th e S A E x p r e s s 20 a n d t h a t ’s a ll t h a t I w a s d o i n g , b e c a u s e t h e c o n tr a c t w a s s a y i n g th a t t h e c o n tr a c t is g o i n g t o e n d i n 2 0 2 0 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t if t h a t c o n t r a c t w a s u n la w f u l fr o m t h e s ta r t t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e n o c la i m f o r th a t m o n e y w o u l d y o u ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m n o t s u r e M s H o f m e y r w h e t h e r i t ’s a f a ir q u e s t i o n t o h e r. Page 169 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t m a y n o t b e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, it may not be, it may not be yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o , I a m in d e b t e d t o y o u C h a ir, th e f o r c e o f t h e p o i n t i s s i m p l y t h a t o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t r e m a i n o u ts t a n d in g f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n , a n d i t ’s f a i r th a t I p u t t h is t o M s T l a t s a n a i s t h a t w e d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e 2 9 .1 m i ll io n t h a t c a m e in t o K o r e n e k a a s m a t t e r s s t a n d h e r e a n d h o w it w a s a c c o u n t e d f o r i n th e b u s i n e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t is o f c o n c e r n b e c a u s e t h e s c h e m e o f 10 t h e s e a r r a n g e m e n t s s u g g e s t s a n u n d e r l y in g i n v a l id i ty i n r e l a ti o n t o t h o s e c o n tr a c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t i s fl o w i n g f r o m t h a t t h a t I a m i n t e r e s te d t o h a v e M s Tl a ts a n a ’s s u b m is s io n i n r e l a ti o n t o h e r c o n ti n u e d p u r s u i t o f f u n d s n o tw i th s t a n d i n g e v e r y th in g t h a t s h e h a s u n c o v e r e d a b o u t – t o q u o t e y o u r a ffi d a v it , t h e s h a m t h a t t h e s e a g r e e m e n ts w e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Well part of the reason why I am saying I am not s u r e i f i t ’s a f a ir q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e i t m ig h t in v o lv e l a w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t m a y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And – but there may be a way maybe of asking it in a w a y t h a t is n o t v e r y l e g a l o r le g a l is ti c . . .( in t e r v e n t io n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , t e c h n ic a l , i n d e e d , i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e l e t m e tr y th is . L e t ’s a s s u m e t h a t w h e n o n e lo o k s a t t h i s a g r e e m e n t th a t K o r e n e k a c o n c lu d e d w it h S A Ex p r e s s a n d h o w e v e r y t h i n g w a s c a r r ie d o u t i f o n e w e r e to c o n c l u d e t h a t if y o u lo o k Page 170 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 a t e v e r y th i n g t h i s a g r e e m e n t t h a t K o r e n e k a h a d a n d s o m e o f th e p a y m e n t s th a t c a m e in a n d c a m e o u t w e r e ta in t e d b y c o r r u p t i o n , le t ’s a s s u m e , w e a r e n o t s a y i n g i t is s o , l e t ’s a s s u m e t h a t t h a t w e r e to b e t h e p o s it i o n , w o u l d y o u t h in k th a t y o u w o u ld s t il l s a y y o u m u s t b e p a i d m o n e y in t e r m s o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t , d e s p i t e th e a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e p a y m e n t s b e in g ta i n t e d b y c o r r u p t io n o r w o u ld y o u s a y w e ll i f i t ’s t a i n te d b y c o r r u p t io n t h e n y o u d o n ’ t t h in k y o u s h o u l d b e p a id ? M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : C h a ir w o u l d i t b e fa ir if I s a y I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n t h a t b e c a u s e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o t h a t’s f i n e . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : L e t m e d o . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) CHAIRPERSON: I t m i g h t b e s o m e t h in g w h e r e y o u n e e d le g a l a d v ic e , t h e r e m a y b e li ti g a ti o n g o i n g o n , y o u m i g h t w a n t t o r e s e r v e y o u r p o s i ti o n . I d o n ’t t h i n k w e s h o u l d ta k e t h a t f u r th e r, j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a in ly C h a ir. C h a ir t h o s e a r e t h e q u e s ti o n s fr o m o u r s i d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M s T l a t s a n a f o r c o m i n g f o r w a r d to g iv e e v i d e n c e , w e a p p r e c i a te i t a n d t h e fa c t th a t y o u w e r e a b l e to c o m e o n a S a t u r d a y. 20 I t m a y b e th a t y o u w o u l d b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a t s o m e l a te r s t a g e , I a m s u r e i f y o u a r e a s k e d a g a in y o u w il l c o m e b a c k . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . M S B A B A D I S Y B I L T L AT S A N A : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. W e w i ll a d j o u r n fo r t h e d a y a n d w e w i ll Page 171 of 172 22 JUNE 2019 – DAY 118 s t a r t a t t e n o ’ c l o c k o n M o n d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a n k y o u to e v e r y b o d y f o r h a v i n g ta k e n th e tr o u b le t o c o m e o n a S a t u r d a y, w e h a v e t o tr y a n d w o r k h a r d , t h e r e is n o t a l o t o f t i m e l e f t b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n fi n i s h e s i t s w o r k . adjourn. I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 4 J U N E 2 0 1 9 10 Page 172 of 172 We