C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 23 JANUARY 2020 D AY 2 0 4 20 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 23 JANUARY 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y j u s t c o m m e n c e th e r e a r e t w o s e ts o f le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s h e r e t o d a y a n d I w o u l d l ik e to a s k t h a t th e y ju s t p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e ? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s d o t h a t . ADV JOHN MBETHE: Good morning DCJ Zondo. C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r n i n g p le a s e c o m e o v e r h e r e . ADV JOHN MBETHE: Th e n a m e i f J o h n M b e th e f r o m M b e t h e M l a n g a Attorneys in Sandton. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V J O H N M B E T H E : W e a r e h e r e o n b e h a l f o f M r Ts o t s i t o a s s is t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Ts o ts i. A D V J O H N M B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . 20 ADV MBULELO NDLOVU: M o r n i n g J u d g e m y n a m e is M b u l e lo N d l o v u and we are here on behalf of Chwayita Ma bude. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. To d a y w e a r e c o n t i n u in g w i t h w h a t w e h a v e b e e n c a ll i n g t h e T N A e v i d e n c e a n d I th o u g h t j u s t a t th e o u t s e t b e f o r e w e b e g i n w it h M r Ts o ts i w h o is o u r fi r s t w i tn e s s t o d a y I Page 2 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 m i g h t j u s t r e c a p w h e r e w e e n d e d o ff l a s t t i m e o n t h e e v id e n c e s o t h a t I c a n p la c e i t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e e v id e n c e fo r t h e t w o d a y s . C h a ir th e e v i d e n c e o n TN A w a s fo c u s s i n g o n s ta t e o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s a n d t h e ir c o n tr a c ts w i th T N A fr o m th e ti m e th a t th e c o m p a n y r e a l ly s t a r te d f u n c t i o n in g i n 2 0 11 u n t il a b o u t 2 0 1 7 w h e n i t w a s s o l d a n d t h e n i n t h e p r o c e s s o f l iq u id a ti o n . C h a ir p r e v io u s ly i n th e t w o d a y s t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h t h is e v i d e n c e l a s t y e a r w e f o c u s s e d o n E s k o m a n d w e h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f th r e e w it n e s s e s d e a l i n g w i th i n th e c a s e o f Es k o m t h e r e w e r e th r e e c o n tr a c ts th a t w e r e c o n c lu d e d fr o m a b o u t 2 0 1 2 o n w a r d s 10 u n t il 2 0 1 4 a n d w e h e a r d th e e v i d e n c e o f f ir s t Mr P r e t o r iu s t h e n Mr C h o e u a n d t h e n Mr P a m e n s k y. To d a y w e w i ll c o n c l u d e t h e E s k o m e v i d e n c e w i t h o u r fir s t w i t n e s s w h o is Mr Ts o t s i w h o a t r e l e v a n t p o in t s in t i m e w a s b o t h a m e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d o f Es k o m a n d t h e n C h a i r o f th e B o a r d o f Es k o m . O n c e w e c o n c lu d e M r Ts o ts i’s e v i d e n c e w e w i ll m o v e t o t h e e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o Tr a n s n e t a n d i n r e s p e c t o f Tr a n s n e t w e s i m il a r ly h a v e t h r e e fu r t h e r w it n e s s e s . W e h o p e t o a t l e a s t s t a r t w it h o n e o f t h e m t o d a y d e p e n d i n g o n h o w t h i n g s g o w i t h M r Ts o t s i a n d th e n w e w i ll h a v e t w o f u r th e r w i t n e s s e s t o m o r r o w. C h a ir a s I m e n ti o n e d a t t h e o u ts e t w h e n w e s t a r te d t h e T N A e v id e n c e s o m e o f th e w it n e s s e s 20 w h o a r e b e i n g c a l le d a n d a r e g o i n g to b e q u e s ti o n e d a b o u t t h e T N A c o n tr a c ts a r e w i tn e s s e s w h o h a v e in s i g h ts o n o t h e r m a t t e r s f a ll in g w i t h i n th e m a n d a t e o f t h e c o m m i s s io n . B u t th is s e s s i o n is fo c u s s in g o n t h e T N A a s p e c ts . A n d – s o th a t i s c e r t a i n l y a p p l ie d t o Mr Ts o ts i , i t a p p li e d t o M r P a m e n s k y a n d o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s t o m o r r o w M r M k h w a n a z i i s a n o th e r w i t n e s s w h o w e w il l b e f o c u s s i n g o n T N A a s p e c ts Page 3 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w i t h b u t t h e r e is c e r t a i n l y a n i n te n ti o n f o r t h e o th e r a s p e c t s o n w h ic h t h e y h a v e d ir e c t k n o w le d g e t o b e d e a l t w i t h i n o t h e r e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e f i n a l p o i n t t o m a k e o n T N A is t h e r e is a l a s t S O E i n r e s p e c t o f w h i c h T N A e v i d e n c e w i ll b e l e d . A n d th a t e v i d e n c e w i ll a c tu a l ly b e l e d a t th e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e n e x t a v i a t i o n session of evidence. T h a t w i ll l o o k f in a lly a n d in c o n c l u s io n a t t h e s u b s c r i p ti o n a g r e e m e n t s th a t S A A e n g a g e d i n w i t h T N A a n d th e w it n e s s t h e r e w il l b e M r K o n a w h o a t t h e r e le v a n t p o i n t i n t i m e w a s C h a ir p e r s o n 10 o f th e B o a r d o f S A A a n d t h e n h e w a s m o v e d t o t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h ie f E x e c u t iv e . S o h e w ill a c t u a ll y c o m m e n c e t h e a v i a ti o n e v id e n c e d e a li n g w i t h T N A a n d d e a li n g w i t h c e r t a i n o t h e r m a tt e r s th a t h e h a s b r o u g h t to the attention of the commission. A n d a t t h a t p o i n t t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s in v e s t i g a t io n s i n to th e s ta t e o w n e d e n te r p r is e s c o n tr a c ts w i th T N A w il l h a v e b e e n c o n c l u d e d . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y t h e n r e q u e s t th a t M r Ts o ts i b e s w o r n in ? C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e – p le a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ffi r m a ti o n ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e s t a t e y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R T S O T S I : Z o l a A n d il e Ts o t s i . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? MR TSOTSI: REGISTRAR: No I do not. D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? Page 4 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : Ye s I d o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R T S O T S I : S o h e lp m e G o d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir M r Ts o ts i h a s p r o v i d e d a n a ff id a v i t t o t h e c o m m i s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e a ls o p r e v io u s ly g a v e a s ta t e m e n t t o t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e w h e n i t w a s in v e s ti g a t in g m a t t e r s o f Es k o m in 2 0 1 8 and 2017 and 2018. A n d s o t h e b u n d le w h ic h w e r e q u e s t b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t M M 6 c o n ta i n s fir s t h i s a ff id a v i t th e n h is s t a t e m e n t to t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e a n d th e n a s e r i e s o f r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t s t h e r e a f t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r A n d il e Z o l a Ts t o s i’s a ff i d a v i t a n d d o c u m e n ts i n t h e le v e r a r c h fi le i n w h i c h t h a t a ffi d a v i t i s w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t M M 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o t s i j u s t t o o r ie n t a t e y o u f o r t h e p u r p o s e s 20 o f th e e v id e n c e . W h a t y o u h a v e d ir e c t ly i n fr o n t o f y o u i s M M 6 i t is t h e e x h i b i t w h i c h c o n t a i n s y o u r a ffi d a v it , y o u r s t a te m e n t a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d a n d a s e r i e s o f a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n ts t h a t I w i ll ta k e y o u to to d a y. A ls o a v a i la b le to y o u a r e a s e r i e s o f o th e r fi le s w h ic h c o m p r i s e th e fu ll s e t o f w i tn e s s e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o T N A a n d t h a t is m a d e a v a il a b l e to y o u b e c a u s e t h e r e m a y b e p o in ts in t h e e v i d e n c e w h e r e a d o c u m e n t li v e s i n Page 5 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 o n e o f th o s e f il e s th a t I w il l n e e d to ta k e y o u t o . A n d I w il l id e n t i fy t h e m b y t h e e x h i b i t n u m b e r w h ic h y o u s e e o n t h e ir s p i n e s . Mr Ts o ts i I n o t e d fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d fr o m y o u r s t a te m e n t t o P a r l i a m e n t t h a t y o u i n d ic a te d i n b o t h o f t h e m t h a t y o u h a d b e e n a s k e d to g i v e a n a c c o u n t o f c e r t a in e v e n t s y e a r s a f te r y o u h a d l e f t E s k o m a n d c e r t a in ly w i t h o u t th e b e n e f i t o f c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s a v a i la b le t o y o u , is t h a t correct? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I w a n t e d t o s a y in t h a t r e g a r d is t h a t t h e 10 c o m m i s s io n ’s s e r io u s ly. i n v e s ti g a ti o n s have certainly taken that l i m i ta t io n W e h a v e b e e n s o u r c i n g d o c u m e n t s fr o m Es k o m w h e r e t h e y b e c o m e r e le v a n t to t h e m a t t e r s a t h a n d . P r e v io u s w i t n e s s e s h a v e b e e n t a k e n to t h e m . I in t e n d to t a k e y o u t o t h o s e d o c u m e n ts to d a y. B u t w e a r e w e l l a w a r e t h a t s o m e o f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n s e e n b y y o u f o r s o m e t i m e a n d s o p l e a s e d o i n d i c a t e a t a n y p o in t i f y o u w o u ld l ik e e x tr a ti m e t o l o o k a t d o c u m e n ts , i f y o u w o u ld l ik e t o c o n s id e r t h e m i n c o n t e x t w e w i ll c e r t a i n l y t a k e t h a t in t o a c c o u n t i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e e v id e n c e . MR TSOTSI: Thank you. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e o t h e r t h i n g is ju s t a u d i b i li t y Mr Ts o t s i w i ll y o u j u s t e n d e a v o u r t o b r in g y o u r m ic r o p h o n e a s c l o s e t o a s p o s s i b l e t o where you are. I t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e g e t a g o o d r e c o r d in g o f t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s f o r o u r tr a n s c r i p t w h i c h I t h i n k n o w m u s t b e in h u n d r e d s o f th o u s a n d s o f p a g e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is h u n d r e d o f t h o u s a n d s ja . Page 6 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s . M r Ts o t s i i f I c a n t h e n c o m m e n c e j u s t t o – t o g e t a s e n s e o f h o w m u c h o f t h e p r e v io u s e v i d e n c e o n T N A y o u m a y b e a w a r e o f i n th e c o m m is s i o n . Yo u w e r e i n a t te n d a n c e fo r M r P a m e n s k y ’s e v i d e n c e a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n h e a r i n g , is th a t r i g h t? MR TSOTSI: Correct yes I was here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I th i n k th a t i s b e c a u s e y o u – y o u th o u g h t y o u m i g h t c o m e o n a s a w i tn e s s b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly i t t o o k a b i t lo n g e r th a n we had expected. I a p o l o g i s e f o r th a t . A n d t h e n in r e la t io n t o Mr P r e t o r i u s a n d M r C h o e u w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e ir e v i d e n c e ? 10 Did you w a t c h it ? D i d y o u lis t e n ? M R T S O T S I : C h a ir I d i d l is t e n t o s o m e o f it b e c a u s e n o t a ll o f i t w a s broadcast but I did get to – to hear some of it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u i t ju s t h e l p s m e t o k n o w t h e e x te n t t o w h ic h t h e m a t te r s tr a v e r s e d t h e r e m i g h t b e k n o w n to y o u . But w h e r e v e r s o m e t h i n g i s u n c l e a r y o u s h o u l d j u s t in d ic a te t h a t t o m e a n d t h e n I c a n ta k e y o u t o d o c u m e n t s e tc e te r a . ju s t b e g in w i t h y o u r b a c k g r o u n d . Mr Ts o t s i i f w e c a n t h e n C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t q u a l if ic a ti o n s y o u h o l d a n d th e n in t r o d u c e f o r u s w h e n y o u jo i n e d E s k o m a n d w h e n y o u l e ft E s k o m ? 20 MR TSOTSI: Ye s I h o l d a h o n o u r s d e g r e e i n M a t h e m a ti c s a n d C h e m is tr y a n d a l s o h o l d a h o n o u r s d e g r e e i n C h e m ic a l E n g i n e e r in g w h ic h I d i d a t t h e U n i v e r s i ty S u r r e y i n t h e U K . And I have post that d o n e a n u m b e r o f m a n a g e m e n t p r o g r a m s v a r io u s ly t h r o u g h o u t th e te r m o f m y e m p lo y m e n t p a r t ic u l a r ly a t Es k o m . I joined Eskom as an e m p l o y e e in 1 9 9 5 a n d I w o r k e d i n t w o s p e c i fi c a r e a s w h e n I w a s a t Page 7 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 Eskom. I w a s a s e n i o r m a n a g e r fir s t a n d f o r e m o s t r e s p o n s ib l e f o r E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff a ir s i n t h e c o m p a n y. I th e n p r o c e e d e d s o m e y e a r s la t e r to w h a t w e c a l le d C o r p o r a te S t r a t e g y. S o I w a s H e a d o f C o r p o r a t e S tr a t e g y a t Es k o m f o r – i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a b o u t f o u r y e a r s b e fo r e I le f t . I e v e n t u a l ly l e f t t h e c o m p a n y in 2 0 0 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u r e tu r n e d t o th e B o a r d o f Es k o m , is t h a t c o r r e c t? MR TSOTSI: Ye s I r e tu r n e d t o t h e B o a r d o f Es k o m in 2 0 11 a s C h a ir m a n o f th e c o m p a n y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d i d – u n ti l w h a t ti m e d id y o u m a in t a i n t h a t p o s i ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : I w a s C h a ir m a n o f th e c o m p a n y u n t il th e e n d o f M a r c h in 2015. CHAIRPERSON: Having started when – in which year as Chairperson of the Board? M R T S O T S I : I s t a r t e d C h a ir a s th e C h a i r m a n o n a r o u n d A u g u s t o f 2 0 11 t h a t w a s th e fir s t t e r m w h ic h e n d e d o n th e 8 D e c e m b e r o r t h e 11 D e c e m b e r r a th e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e n my s e c o n d s t in t a s C h a ir m a n w a s fr o m t h e n u n ti l I w il l s a y a b o u t t h e 3 0 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u o n ly s e r v e d a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d y o u never served as an ordinary member of the Board? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I m a y h a v e i n t h e i n tr o d u c t i o n s a i d s o m e t h i n g i n c o r r e c t th e r e s o t h e c l a r i fic a ti o n is u s e f u l. Page 8 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e M r Ts o ts i i n h is a ff i d a v i t s p o k e a b o u t b e i n g a p p o i n t e d t o t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c to r s in A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 Mr Ts o ts i y o u w i ll s e e t h a t a t p a g e 1 a n d p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 o n t h a t p a g e . Yo u la t e r t a l k a b o u t s a y in g y o u w e r e f u r th e r a p p o in t e d a s t h e C h a ir m a n a n d s o i t w a s m y e r r o r t o a s s u m e y o u h a d h e ld a p o s i ti o n a s a n o n - e x e c u ti v e m e m b e r b u t n o t C h a ir m a n p r i o r to h o l d i n g t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h a ir m a n . S o I th a n k y o u f o r th a t c l a r if ic a ti o n . Yo u w e r e C h a i r j u s t to b e c le a r fr o m y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t i n A u g u s t 2 0 11 , is th a t r i g h t? 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . If w e c a n t h e n g o o v e r t h e p a g e Mr Ts o ts i t o p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t? M R T S O T S I : O k a y I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o f i n d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Oh it is right at the beginning. O h le t m e o r i e n ta t e y o u . T h e p a g e s a r e i n th e to p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r. MR TSOTSI: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o if y o u – if y o u t u r n o v e r t h a t fi r s t p in k d iv is io n . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . G o t i t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g o t it ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Excellent. And when I refer to page numbers y o u w i ll a lw a y s b e l o o k i n g f o r t h e n u m b e r in t h e t o p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r. S o w e a r e n o w a t p a g e 2 o f th e a ff id a v i t a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o p ic k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 i f w e m a y th e r e ? Yo u t a lk t h e r e a b o u t T N A M e d ia . T h a t Page 9 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 is w h e r e y o u in tr o d u c e it i n t h e a ff id a v i t a n d y o u s t a te t h e r e t h a t : “ T N A M e d ia h a d a c o n tr a c tu a l r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h E s k o m p r i o r to m y a r r iv a l a s a D ir e c t o r o f th e c o m p a n y. ” Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y – w h y d o y o u s a y t h a t a c o n tr a c tu a l r e l a ti o n s h i p e x i s t e d p r i o r to A u g u s t 2 0 11 ? MR TSOTSI: 10 I u n d e r s to o d w h e n I a r r i v e d a t Es k o m t h a t t h e c o m p a n y h a d a c o n tr a c t w i t h T N A M e d ia it w a s p r io r t o m y a r r iv a l a s C h a ir m a n o f t h e c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll w h o g a v e y o u th a t i m p r e s s i o n ? M R T S O T S I : T h i s w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o w a s t h a t a t t h e t i m e ? MR TSOTSI: That was Brian Dames. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. And you go on and say at p a r a g r a p h 3 . 2 w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w i th t h a t c o n t r a c t . C a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t t h a t? M R T S O T S I : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t th e r e h a d b e e n a r e n e w a l o f th a t 20 c o n tr a c t a t s o m e p o i n t . I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h a t t h e d a t e s w e r e . A n d th a t d u r i n g m y t e r m o f o ffi c e t h e r e w a s a g a i n a n o t h e r r e n e w a l w h i c h w o u l d h a v e b e e n I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t w a s t h e s e c o n d o r t h ir d r e n e w a l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t g a v e y o u th e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e la s t o f t h o s e w a s a r e n e w a l ? M R T S O T S I : W e ll m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t i t w a s a r e n e w a l w a s b e c a u s e Page 10 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h e r e w a s n o p a r t ic u l a r p r o c e s s w e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e p e o p le r e s p o n s i b l e f o r e n g a g i n g s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s w e n t in t o o th e r t h a n j u s t s i m p l y n e g o ti a ti n g a c o n t r a c t . S o I p r e s u m e d th a t in e ff e c t w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w a s t h a t i t w a s b e i n g u p d a t e d fr o m w h a t i t w a s p r e v i o u s ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u m a k e e n q u ir i e s i n th a t r e g a r d ? M R T S O T S I : N o I d id n o t m a k e e n q u ir ie s i n t h a t r e g a r d f o r th e s i m p le r e a s o n t h a t t h e s e m a t t e r s a r e n o r m a l ly o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s t h a t a r e d e a lt w i t h b y t h e e x e c u ti v e s a n d w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly c o m e to t h e B o a r d u n l e s s t h e r e w a s a p a r t ic u l a r s it u a ti o n t h a t c a u s e d t h e – t o c o m e 10 to the Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i I fo c u s o n t h o s e t w o a s p e c t s b e c a u s e the evidence before the commission thus far through the evidence of Mr P r e t o r i u s a n d M r C h o e u a n d Mr P a m e n s k y – w e ll th e l a t te r t w o t o a le s s e r d e g r e e b e c a u s e Mr P a m e n s k y o n ly e n t e r e d t h e B o a r d i n December of 2014. S o le t u s f o c u s f o r n o w o n t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r Pretorius and Mr Choeu. Th e y h a v e t a k e n u s t h r o u g h t h e f ir s t t w o c o n tr a c ts t h a t E s k o m e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h T N A . A n d t h e f ir s t c o n tr a c t y o u m a y b e a w a r e fr o m t h e ir e v id e n c e a n d I c a n c e r t a i n ly ta k e y o u to d o c u m e n ts w h e r e i t m ig h t b e r e l e v a n t fo r y o u t o d o s o . B u t m y h o p e i s 20 w e c a n ju s t m o v e o v e r th is s o t h a t w e g e t s o m e c o m m o n g r o u n d a s t o t h e c o n tr a c ts th a t e x is t e d p r i o r t o t h e e l e v a ti o n o f th e m a t t e r s to t h e B o a r d o f E s k o m w h i c h i s r e a l ly w h e r e y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f t h e e v e n ts . B u t i f a t a n y p o i n t y o u h a v e a r e a s o n t o – to d is p u te o r q u e s t io n w h a t I a m t e l li n g y o u t h e e v i d e n c e l e d t h u s fa r h a s b e e n p l e a s e r a is e i t a n d t h e n w e c a n g o t o t h e d o c u m e n ts . B u t t h e e v i d e n c e Page 11 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h u s f a r is t h a t t h e f ir s t c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lu d e d in A p r i l o f 2 0 1 2 s o n o t p r i o r t o y o u r a r r iv a l . D o e s t h a t c o m e a s a s u r p r is e t o y o u ? M R T S O T S I : I t d o e s c o m e a s a s u r p r is e , i t d o e s c e r t a i n l y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d o y o u t h in k y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t t h e r e w a s a c o n tr a c t i n e x is t e n c e a lr e a d y i f th e r e w a s n o t ? M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t k n o w. I w o u l d n o t – I c a n n o t a n s w e r t h a t I d o n o t k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e f ir s t c o n tr a c t w a s fo r 6 b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s . D o y o u k n o w w h a t b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t s a r e i n t h e c o n t e x t o f 10 TNA? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h a t w a s f o r – t o a v a lu e o f R 7 . 8 5 m il li o n . A n d th a t c o n tr a c t w a s g o i n g to r u n fr o m t h e 1 A p r il 2 0 1 2 to the 31 March 2013. As you sit here now are you aware of those f a c ts o r n o t? M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t k n o w a lo t o f th e d a t e s b u t I a m j u s t a w a r e o f th e business breakfasts. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . A n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r C h o e u a n d M r P r e t o r i u s w a s t h a t th e r e w a s t h e n a s e c o n d c o n tr a c t c o n c l u d e d i n 20 N o v e m b e r o f 2 0 1 2 a n d t h a t w a s f o r a f u r t h e r 4 b r e a k fa s t s . Are you aware of that? M R T S O T S I : I a m a w a r e o f th e b r e a k f a s t s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e fa c t t h a t t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d in N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 , a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t f a c t? M R T S O T S I : N o I w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f th a t . Page 12 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r p r o c e s s e s w e r e f o l lo w e d b e f o r e th o s e c o n tr a c t s w e r e e n t e r e d i n t o ? M R T S O T S I : N o C h a ir I w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n p r iv y to th a t in f o r m a t io n at that time. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h o s e c o n t r a c ts w e r e c o n c l u d e d w h e n th e r e w a s b u d g e t a v a il a b l e f o r t h e m o r n o t? MR TSOTSI: T h a t to o I w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n p r iv y to s o I w o u l d n o t have known. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e w a s a p o in t i n ti m e w h e r e P a r li a m e n ta r y 10 q u e s t io n s s ta r t e d t o c o m e t o Es k o m b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s s o m e i n te r e s t i n t h e e x t e n t to w h ic h s t a t e o w n e d e n t i ti e s w e r e c o n t r a c t i n g w i t h T N A . W e r e y o u i n v o lv e d i n th o s e q u e s ti o n s a n d a n s w e r s ? M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t r e c a ll b e in g i n v o lv e d i n t h o s e q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e o r d i n a r i ly w h e n P a r l i a m e n t r e q u e s ts Es k o m to a p p e a r b e f o r e i t it i s t h e management Committee. th a t goes and appears before th e P a r li a m e n ta r y A n d w e a s B o a r d w o u ld o n l y k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a n is s u e t h a t h a s b e e n e s c a la t e d t o th e B o a r d . B u t o t h e r w is e w e w o u l d o n l y k n o w i n s o fa r a s w h a t w o u l d b e i n th e p u b l ic d o m a i n a s a n y b o d y e l s e w o u ld . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e e n g a g e m e n t s fr o m t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s o ffic e w i t h Es k o m w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d i n t h o s e i n t e r a c ti o n s ? MR TSOTSI: T h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a t s o m e p o i n t in t h i s w h o le T N A m a t t e r d i d w r i t e t o m e a n d w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n s is I w o u ld p a s s o n that correspondence to management and a p p r o p r i a t e ly a n d t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d . Page 13 of 159 ask them to respond 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . W e w i ll c e r ta i n ly g o to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r e n g a g e m e n t s i n a b i t d e t a i l la t e r i n y o u r e v id e n c e . B u t a t t h e m o m e n t w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h e s e c o n d c o n t r a c t . N o w th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s h e a r d in e v id e n c e c o n c l u d e d o n t h e 3 1 March 2013. Are you aware of that? M R T S O T S I : I a m n o t a w a r e o f th e s p e c if i c d a t e s n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t d i d c o m e to t h e B o a r d ’s a tt e n ti o n , th e t h ir d c o n tr a c t, th e c o n tr a c t t h a t Mr M a tj il a e n te r e d i n to to t h e v a l u e o f R 4 3 m i ll io n . W h e n d i d t h a t c o m e a b o u t ? D o y o u r e c a ll i ts 10 ti m e p e r i o d ? MR TSOTSI: I o n ly r e c a ll t h e f a c t th a t M r M a tj il a e n t e r e d in t o th a t c o n tr a c t a t t h e b e g in n in g o f A p r i l w h i c h is w h a t w a s r e p o r te d t o th e Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w o u ld b e A p r i l 2 0 1 4 ? MR TSOTSI: 2014. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in ly t h e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n in d i c a t e s th a t b e t w e e n th e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 3 a n d A p r il 2 0 1 4 th e r e w a s 20 n o c o n tr a c t w i th T N A . W e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t ? M R T S O T S I : N o t s p e c if ic a l ly n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e a s o n w h y I r a is e i t is b e c a u s e I a m ju s t in t e r e s te d i n y o u r u s e o f th e w o r d r e n e w a l – t h a t t h e s e c o n tr a c ts w e r e b e i n g r e n e w e d . B e c a u s e c e r ta in ly t h e r e w a s a b i g g a p i n t i m e b e t w e e n t h e e n d o f t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t a n d t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f th e t h i r d c o n tr a c t . Page 14 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 D i d y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e t h i r d c o n t r a c t w a s j u s t a renewal of the previous one? M R T S O T S I : T h a t w a s th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t I h a d C h a i r m a n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m a n d w h o g a v e y o u t h a t u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? M R T S O T S I : I g o t th e u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m t h e p r e s e n ta t io n w h ic h w a s g iv e n to u s fr o m t h e A u d i t a n d R i s k C o m m it t e e w h e n t h e y i n fo r m e d t h e B o a r d a b o u t t h is p r o b l e m w i t h t h e c o n tr a c t a t t h a t ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e M r C h o e u ’s e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s a l o t o f I t h i n k h e m i g h t o f s a i d h e a t o n 10 E s k o m to w a r d s th e e n d – w e ll d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f 2 0 1 3 a n d 2 0 1 4 b e c a u s e th e r e w a s P a r li a m e n t a r y q u e s ti o n s th a t s ta r t e d l a te i n 2 0 1 2 a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r ’s e n g a g e m e n t w i t h Es k o m a b o u t T N A a n d h is e v i d e n c e w a s h e t h e r e fo r e w a s n o t i n c li n e d a f t e r t h a t s e c o n d c o n tr a c t t o c o n tr a c t w it h T N A u n t il a t l e a s t A p r il o f 2 0 1 4 w h e n M r M a tj il a w a s a p p o i n te d a s t h e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e o f E s k o m . A r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y o f th a t c o n t e x t ? M R T S O T S I : N o I a m n o t a w a r e o f it . I w o u l d o n ly b e c o m e a w a r e o f i t if t h e r e w a s a p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e t o i t i n a n y o f t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g s o r a n y o f t h e r e p o r ts th a t c a m e fr o m m a n a g e m e n t . 20 A n d u s u a l ly th o s e w o u ld c o m e b e c a u s e th e B o a r d h a s e i t h e r t o m a k e a d e c is i o n o r t h e B o a r d n e e d s t o k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d t h e B o a r d e v e r e n g a g e M r C h o e u a t a ll a b o u t t h e R 4 3 m ill i o n c o n tr a c t? M R T S O T S I : N o t w h il s t I w a s a t E s k o m , n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n g o to o n e o f th e b u n d l e s in fr o n t o f Page 15 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 y o u w h i c h is E x h i b i t M M 1 ? T h a t is th e b u n d l e c o n t a i n i n g Mr P r e t o r iu s ’ e v i d e n c e C h a ir. A n d if w e c a n p i c k th a t u p – o h a p o lo g ie s i t w il l b e M M 1 b t h e s e c o n d o f th e v o lu m e s a n d w e w ill p i c k i t u p a t p a g e 7 3 1 . MR TSOTSI: What page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 7 3 1 . MR TSOTSI: 731. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e – a p o l o g ie s M r Ts o t s i I see. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e it e x c e ll e n t . I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 7 3 2 y o u w il l f in d t h e d a t e o f t h is le t t e r w h i c h is 3 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 . O n i ts f a c e i t is a l e t t e r w r i tt e n b y M in is t e r G i g a b a t o y o u r s e l f. D o y o u r e c a l l t h is l e t te r ? M R T S O T S I : N o t u n l e s s I r e a d i t t o r e m i n d my s e l f. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e p l e a s e t a k e a n o p p o r tu n i t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R T S O T S I : Ye s I s e e I h a v e r e a d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll r e c e i v in g i t ? CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ms Hofmeyr maybe what we should do if there are g o i n g to b e q u it e a fe w o f th o s e l e tt e r s t h a t y o u w ill r e fe r h i m t o w h i c h h e h a s n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d m a y b e w h a t y o u c o u ld d o f o r t h e n e x t o n e s if t h e r e w i ll b e is to t e ll h i m t h e m a i n p o in ts o f w h a t i t s a y s a n d i f h e l o o k s t h a t h e m i g h t j u s t r e m e m b e r q u i c k ly. B u t i f h e n e e d s to r e a d i t o r i f h e is g o in g to b e m a d e t o r e a d a l l o f t h e m f u ll y w e m i g h t h a v e t o ju s t fi n d ti m e a n d g i v e a b o u t a t h ir ty m i n u t e s y o u i d e n ti f y a l l t h e l e t te r s Page 16 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h a t y o u w il l r e f e r h i m t o – h e r e a d s a ll o f th e m s o w h e n w e c o m e b a c k it c o u l d b e m u c h q u ic k e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I p r o p o s e t h a t w e e n d e a v o u r o n t h e f ir s t o p t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h i s I c a n j u s t h i g h li g h t? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e s a li e n t p o i n ts . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a t a n y p o in t i f y o u w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e m o r e ti m e M r Ts o ts i p l e a s e l e t u s k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o o n t h e fa c e o f i t th is is a le t t e r fr o m M i n i s te r G ig a b a t o y o u r s e l f i n d i c a t in g t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r h a s e n g a g e d h i s d e p a r t m e n t a n d is a s k in g q u e s t io n s a b o u t s p e n d w i t h t h e T N A M e d i a . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll r e c e i v i n g t h is l e t te r i n a r o u n d August of 2013? 20 M R T S O T S I : I d o r e c a l l t h e l e tt e r y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r w a s t h a t y o u w o u l d t h e n h a v e h a n d e d i t o v e r t o m a n a g e m e n t to d e a l w it h a r e s p o n s e . Is t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h i s o c c a s i o n ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d I w i ll t a k e y o u t o t h e r e s p o n s e Page 17 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h a t m a n a g e m e n t p r o v id e d . bundle, Exhibit MM1b. I t is c o n ta i n e d a t p a g e 7 4 9 o f t h e s a m e Yo u w il l s e e t h a t t h a t is a l e t t e r d a te d t h e 1 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 . C h a ir w e d i d d e a l w i th t h is i n e v id e n c e p r e v i o u s ly b u t y o u w i ll s e e s o r t o f m a y b e a q u a r te r o f t h e w a y d o w n t h e r e i s d r a f t in d i c a t e d o n t h e f ir s t p a g e o f t h e le t t e r 7 4 9 . The evidence is e s t a b li s h e d th a t w a s a c t u a ll y a n e r r o r. I t w a s n o t th e d r a f t i t is t h e a c t u a l l e tt e r t h a t fi n a l ly w e n t to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n l a te r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s h e a t ta c h e s t h i s l e t t e r 10 w h ic h s h e r e c e iv e d . S o it a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n a n e r r o r t o r e ta in draft. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s t h e fi n a l l e t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o v e r t o p a g e 7 5 1 y o u w i ll s e e th a t it w a s s ig n e d t h e r e b y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr D u Pl e s s i s - t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r - le g a l s p e c i a lis t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h i n Es k o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i , d o y o u r e c a l l e v e r s e e i n g th is l e t te r b e f o r e i t w a s s e n t to t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ? C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u t e ll h i m w h a t i t w a s a b o u t ? Page 18 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t r e c a l l s e e in g i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d s e e t h a t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t - l e t - w e ll it w a s t h e r e s p o n s e to h e r r e q u e s t f o r i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t a l l e g a ti o n s o f fr u it l e s s a n d w a s t e f u l e x p e n d i t u r e o n t h e p a r t o f E s k o m w it h T N A . A s I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u h a n d e d t h a t o v e r to m a n a g e m e n t t o p r e p a r e a r e s p o n s e . W h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d t o k n o w is i n t h a t p r o c e s s w o u ld y o u h a v e a s k e d t o s e e th e l e t t e r b e f o r e i t w e n t b a c k . W e c a n g o t o w h e t h e r y o u - y o u h a d s i g h t o f th is p a r ti c u l a r 10 le t t e r, b u t le t u s f ir s t d e a l w i th t h e p r o c e s s . W o u ld i t c o m e b a c k t o y o u b e f o r e Es k o m ’s r e s p o n s e w e n t to t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r o r d i n a r il y ? M R T S O T S I : O r d in a r il y t h e y w o u l d - th e l e g a l c o u n s e l w o u l d i n f o r m m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : T h a t t h e y h a v e r e s p o n d e d t o th e l e t te r t h a t c a m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . M R T S O T S I : B e c a u s e t h e l e t te r w a s w r i t t e n t o m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: 20 A n d th e y w o u ld t h e n j u s t b r i e f m e a b o u t w h a t t h e ir response has been … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : B u t I a m a fr a i d I d o n o t r e c a l l C h a ir a t t h e t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w o u ld n o t - y o u w o u ld n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s e e th e Page 19 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 response they …? M R T S O T S I : I w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r ily s e e t h e r e s p o n s e n o , b u t I w o u l d b e b r ie f e d a s t o w h a t … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th e r e s p o n s e w a s ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y I w o u ld l i k e t o t a k e y o u j u s t t o o a fe w a s p e c ts o f t h e r e s p o n s e , b e c a u s e t h e e v id e n c e t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n h a s a lr e a d y h e a r d i n d ic a t e s t h a t th e r e w e r e a s p e c ts o f w h a t w a s s t a te d 10 in t h is le t t e r th a t w e r e fa ls e a t t h e t i m e th a t th e y w e r e s ta t e d a n d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e y o u w e r e to l d t h a t t h e r e w a s a response, but you may well not have looked at the text of the response b e f o r e i t w a s s e n t o u t , b u t le t m e t a k e y o u t o t h e a s p e c t s w h ic h a p p e a r t o b e f a ls e o n th e b a s is o f t h e e v i d e n c e - t h e C o m m is s i o n h a s r e c e i v e d . I f w e s t a r t a t p a g e 7 - 4 - 9 in t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h it s a y s there that: “ E s k o m w a s a p p r o a c h e d d u r i n g th e fi r s t q u a r t e r o f 2012 by the New Age Newspaper to sponsor some of 20 the business b r i e fi n g b r e a k fa s ts it was a r r a n g in g . ” And then if you go down to the bottom - the last sentence of t h a t p a r a g r a p h w h a t is r e c o r d e d th e r e is a r e f e r e n c e to t h e p r o g r a m . N o w t h e p r o g r a m i s t h e 4 9 M C a m p a ig n . campaign? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I a m . Page 20 of 159 Ar e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t is a r e f e r e n c e to t h e f o l lo w in g : “As the program had an approved budget it was not necessary to o b t a in Board approval fo r the s p o n s o r s h i p o r n o r m a l s p o n s o r s h ip a p p r o v a l . ” Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w t h e f a c ts t h a t h a v e b e e n r e v e a l e d i n th e C o m m i s s i o n a r e i n s u m m a r y t h e f o l l o w in g : w h e n th e fir s t c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d t h e r e w a s n o b u d g e t a t a ll f o r i t . W h a t t h e n h a d t o h a p p e n is 10 a ft e r i t w a s c o n c l u d e d Mr P r e t o r iu s h a d to g o t o I C A C . T h a t i s - l e t m e ju s t - c a n y o u h e l p m e w i th t h e a c r o n y m - I C A C ? I t i s t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e m i g h t h a v e f o r g o t t e n o v e r th e y e a r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R T S O T S I : I h a v e fo r g o t te n C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I t is t h e I n v e s t m e n t C o m m i t t e e - s o r r y. I w i ll f i n d i t in a m o m e n t . Committee. R ig h t . T h e In v e s t m e n t a n d C a p i t a l A s s u r a n c e S o M r P r e t o r iu s h a d t o g o t o t h e In v e s t m e n t a n d C a p it a l A s s u r a n c e C o m m i t t e e a f t e r t h e c o n tr a c t w a s e n te r e d i n t o to g e t a n a p p r o v a l f o r s ix m il li o n o f th e R 4 4 . 4 m il li o n b u d g e t th a t w a s b e i n g 20 a s s ig n e d t o th e 4 9 M t o b e a s s i g n e d t o th e fir s t s i x b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s ts . W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th o s e fa c t s a t t h e ti m e ? M R T S O T S I : N o . I w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f t h o s e f a c t s a t a ll . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n t h e s e c o n d c o n t r a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d a ft e r M r C h o e u h a d g o n e f o r a p p r o v a l f o r f u r th e r b u d g e t f o r t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t, b u t t h e e n t ir e S p o n s o r s h i p C o m m i t te e e x c e p t h i m s e l f a n d o n e Page 21 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 o th e r p e r s o n h a d v o t e d a g a in s t e n t e r in g i n to th e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t a n d a p p r o v in g a b u d g e t fo r i t. W e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h o s e f a c ts ? MR TSOTSI: No. I was not aware of it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So if you had been aware of them would you h a v e b e e n c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th e s t a t e m e n t i n t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f t h is paragraph? C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u j u s t w a n t t o r e a d t h a t l a s t s e n te n c e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I t s a y s : “As the program had an approved budget. 10 It was n o t n e c e s s a r y t o o b t a i n B o a r d a p p r o v a l fo r t h e s p o n s o r s h i p o r n o r m a l s p o n s o r s h ip a p p r o v a l . ” MR TSOTSI: W e l l fir s t o f a ll t h e y w o u ld n o t h a v e r e q u ir e d B o a r d approval … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R T S O T S I : B u t o b v i o u s ly i f t h e r e w a s n o b u d g e t c l e a r l y I w o u l d h a v e - i f I h a d th e o p p o r tu n it y - I w o u l d h a v e o b j e c t e d t o t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. T h e n i f w e g o t o p a g e 7 - 5 - 1 t h e r e is a n o t h e r a s p e c t o f t h i s r e s p o n s e t h a t w e h a v e d e a lt w i t h p r e v io u s ly i n t h e e v i d e n c e o f b o t h Mr P r e t o r iu s a n d M r C h o e u . L e t - le t m e g iv e y o u 20 t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o th e s t a te m e n t . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w a s i n te r e s t e d i n w a s w h e t h e r t h e s e m il li o n s o f R a n d s t h a t w e r e b e in g s p e n t b y S t a te O w n e d E n t e r p r i s e s o n T N A a n d t h e b u s i n e s s b r i e fi n g s w e r e n o t a w a s t e fu l a n d f r u i tl e s s e x p e n d i t u r e a n d s o o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t w a s a s k e d b o t h b y P a r li a m e n t a n d t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r w a s w e l l h o w h a v e y o u a s s e s s e d th e v a l u e o f E s k o m s p e n d o n t h e s e Page 22 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 b u s i n e s s b r i e fi n g s . R i g h t , b e c a u s e Es k o m s h o u l d b e s p e n d i n g m o n e y - I a s s u m e t h e th i n k i n g w a s - o n t h i n g s t h a t g i v e i t v a l u e . D e r iv e b e n e fi t fr o m i t . W o u l d y o u t a k e a n y is s u e w i th t h a t p r o p o s i ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : I n s o f a r a s n o t a s s e s s i n g t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t p r i o r t o s p e n d in g th e m o n e y. C e r ta i n ly t h a t is w h a t w e r e q u ir e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . S o w h a t E s k o m w a s a s k e d w a s w h a t d o e s y o u r r e s e a r c h s h o w a b o u t th e i m p a c t o f t h is s p e n d - t h e s p e n d w i t h T N A o n y o u r m a r k e ti n g e n d e a v o u r to r e a c h y o u r a u d ie n c e e tc e t e r a a n d 10 w h a t Mr P r e t o r iu s ’ e v i d e n c e i n d ic a t e d w a s th a t w h e n t h e y w e n t b a c k t o t h e a g e n c ie s t h a t a s s i s t e d Es k o m w i th t h e s e s o r ts o f m e a s u r i n g t o o ls . T h e a g e n c y c a m e b a c k a n d s a id w e ll w e c a n n o t d o t h is e x e r c is e , b e c u e t h e r e is j u s t n o w a y o f k n o w in g w h e n E s k o m s u p p o r ts t h e T N A b r e a k fa s t f o r e x a m p l e a n d p u ts t h e 4 9 M l o g o o n a s c r e e n b e h in d t h e s p e a k e r. Whether that is having any impact on people c o n s e r v in g th e ir e l e c tr i c i ty u s e . S o t h e y s a i d w e a c tu a l ly c a n n o t d o a n a s s e s s m e n t o f i ts i m p a c t. T h e r e j u s t is n o t a t o o l a v a il a b l e fo r th a t a n d t h e y s a id t h e s a m e i n r e l a ti o n s h i p t o n e w s p a p e r a d v e r ti s in g w i t h T N A . N o w d e s p i t e 20 t h a t b a c k d r o p a n d w e lo o k e d a t th e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h th e a g e n c y a t t h e ti m e c a ll e d t h e M e d ia S h o p . W h a t w a s p u t i n t o t h i s le t t e r in r e s p o n s e t o th e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r a t p a g e 7 - 5 - 1 a t p a r a g r a p h 3 is t h e f o l lo w in g : “ R e c e n t r e s e a r c h u n d e r t a k e n w i t h r e g a r d t o th e 4 9 M in d i c a t e d that o p p o r tu n i t ie s Page 23 of 159 such as the 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 s p o n s o r s h i p o f b u s i n e s s b r ie f in g s c o n tr i b u te d to a 7 3 p e r c e n t a w a r e n e s s b y t h e p u b li c o f t h e 4 9 M Campaign.” N o w w o u l d y o u h a v e b e e n c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th a t b e in g in c l u d e d i n th is r e s p o n s e t o t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r i f y o u h a d b e e n t o l d a b o u t w h a t t h e M e d ia S h o p h a d t o ld M r P r e t o r i u s i t w a s a b l e t o d o in s o f a r a s r e s e a r c h is c o n c e r n e d ? M R T S O T S I : I n s o fa r a s C h a i r t h e a s s e s s m e n t o f t h e M e d ia S h o p a n d i f t h a t w a s th e o n l y c r i te r i a t h a t w a s a v a i la b l e f o r E s k o m to e v a l u a t e t h e n 10 c le a r ly th e y w o u ld - th e y s h o u l d n o t h a v e s t a te d w h a t t h e y h a v e s ta t e d here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u s a y it m is r e p r e s e n te d t h e p o s i t io n ? M R T S O T S I : I t is a m is r e p r e s e n t a t i o n . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d t h e n lik e to m o v e to t h e t h ir d c o n t r a c t , b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e c o n tr a c t - t h e R 4 9 m il li o n c o n tr a c t w h ic h M r M a tj il a e n te r e d in t o i n A p r il 2 0 1 4 a n d th a t is t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t c a m e t o th e B o a r d ’s a t t e n ti o n a n d y o u h a d q u i t e a - a l e v e l o f in v o lv e m e n t w i t h th a t c o n tr a c t . D i d y o u n o t ? M R T S O T S I : C e r t a in ly. Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . N o w i n 2 0 1 4 y o u h a v e c la r i fi e d f o r u s y o u w e r e t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e Es k o m B o a r d . Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e p i c k u p y o u r a ff i d a v i t a g a i n p l e a s e a t page 2 where you were. Th a t is E X H I B I T M M 6 . M r Ts o ts i ? Page 24 of 159 Do you have that 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: What number? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e a t p a g e 2 a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o p ic k i t u p in t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 2 w h ic h is p a r a g r a p h 2 . 2 . Yo u w i ll s e e i n - y o u s e e in t h e s e c o n d li n e t h e r e t h e s e n t e n c e b e g i n s : “ F o r th e m o s t p a r t m y t e n u r e i n th e B o a r d w a s v e r y s m o o t h u n t il to w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e fir s t B o a r d te r m when M r C o li n M a tj il a was appointed as Chief E x e c u t iv e f r o m a b o u t A p r il 2 0 1 4 . ” Do you see that? 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t 2 .3 y o u g o o n a n d s a y : “ T h e i n s t a b il i ty s e t i n w h e n a w h is t le b l o w e r a ll e g e d t o t h e Es k o m B o a r d th r o u g h t h e A u d i t a n d R i s k C o m m i t t e e t h a t M r M a tj il a h a d n o t f o l lo w e d c o r r e c t procedure as prescribed by the d e le g a t io n of a u t h o r i ty i n a w a r d i n g t h e r e n e w a l o f th e T N A M e d i a C o n tr a c t . ” C a n y o u t e l l u s a b i t a b o u t M r M a t ji l a ’s a p p o i n t m e n t? How d i d th a t o c c u r ? 20 MR TSOTSI: C h a ir m a n , t h is i s a - a b i t o f a lo n g w i n d e d o n e , b u t l e t m e tr y a n d s e e i f I c a n - I c a n r e c a l l . W h a t h a p p e n e d w a s th a t w h e n B r i a n D a m e s w h o w a s t h e s u b s t a n tiv e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e a t t h e ti m e w a s g o i n g t o le a v e t h e c o m p a n y. T h e B o a r d t h e n d e c i d e d o n t w o is s u e s r a th e r t o o k a v i e w o n t w o is s u e s . L e t m e s a y a n d th e v i e w th e B o a r d t o o k w a s t h a t f ir s t o f a l l Page 25 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w e s h o u l d n o t h a v e a n y o f th e B o a r d M e m b e r s a c t i n g a s C h i e f E x e c u t iv e , b e c a u s e w e k n e w th a t b e t w e e n t h e t i m e o f M r D a m e s ’ d e p a r t u r e a n d t h a t o f t h e in c e p ti o n o f t h e n e x t C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e ’s t e r m t h e r e w o u l d b e t h is p e r i o d w h e r e w e w o u l d r e q u i r e a n Ac t in g C h i e f E x e c u t iv e . S o th a t w a s th e fir s t th i n g th e B o a r d t o o k a v i e w o n . The o th e r m a t t e r th a t t h e B o a r d to o k a v i e w o n - i n f a c t o n t h i s o n e i t w a s r e a l ly a d e c i s i o n a n d t h e d e c is i o n w a s t h a t t h e B o a r d w o u l d a s k o n e o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e s t o a v a i l t h e ms e lv e s t o a c t i n t h a t p e r io d . T h e in d i v i d u a l 10 t h a t w e a s k e d w a s a g e n tl e m a n n a m e d S t e v e L e n n o n . CHAIRPERSON: Steve? MR TSOTSI: Steve Lennon. CHAIRPERSON: Lennon? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t w a s h i s p o s it i o n a t t h e ti m e ? M R T S O T S I : H e w a s a n E x e c u t iv e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r o n e o f th e p o r t fo li o s o f t h e c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. M R T S O T S I : S u s t a i n a b il i ty i t w a s . I th i n k . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : A n d o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y w e a s k e d S t e v e in p a r t ic u l a r a p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s v e r y e x p e r i e n c e d . Was that he had d e c l a r e d t h a t h e w o u l d n o t b e i n te r e s t e d in c o n t e s t in g f o r t h e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e ’s p o s i ti o n . S o w e f e l t th a t t h a t w a s a n e a s y t h i n g f o r u s t o do. Page 26 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 S o t h a t it d o e s n o t p r e j u d ic e a n y b o d y e ls e w h o w is h e s to c o n te s t f o r t h e p o s i ti o n a n d s o a s is n o r m a l w e t h e n - th e B o a r d t h e n in s t r u c t e d m e t o g e t t h e M i n i s t e r ’s c o n s e n s u s o n th is m a t t e r a s w o u l d b e t h e c a s e a n d I m e t w i t h t h e M i n is te r a n d t h e Mi n is te r w a s q u i te c o n te n t a n d h a p p y t h a t S t e v e L e n n o n s h o u ld a c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o ts i … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s th e M in is t e r a t t h e t i m e ? M R T S O T S I : T h i s w a s M i n i s t e r G ig a b a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . T h is w a s i n I t h in k a r o u n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 w h e n w e m e t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n w a s th a t ju s t b e f o r e t h e e n d o f B r i a n D a m e s ’ t e r m w h ic h w o u ld h a v e e n d e d a t th e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . I a s k e d S t e v e L e n n o n t o a s k t h e Ex c o Te a m t o h a v e a l o o k a t - a s tr a t e g ic l o o k a t t h e b u s i n e s s p o s t D a m e s ’ t i m e t o b e a b l e t o f o r m o f a v ie w o f h o w t h e y s e e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n g o i n g f o r w a r d . S o t h a t w h e n t h e n e w C h i e f E x e c u t iv e c o m e s a t l e a s t t h e y c a n e n g a g e h i m fr o m a s tr a t e g ic s ta n d p o in t t o m a k e it e a s i e r f o r h i m to h a v e a - a b e tt e r f e e l f o r w h e r e - y o u k n o w - t h e o r g a n is a t i o n ’s f u t u r e s h o u l d l o o k li k e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y M r Ts o t s i . I d o n o t k n o w i f I m is s e d s o m e t h i n g . Yo u s p o k e t o t h e M i n i s te r a b o u t a p p r o a c h in g M r L e n n o n to b e A c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r. T h e M i n is t e r w a s h a p p y w i t h th a t . I e x p e c te d y o u t o th e n s a y y o u a p p r o a c h e d h i m . D i d h e a g r e e a n d t h e n m o v e o n o r a r e y o u s t il l g o - g o i n g t h e r e i n te r ms o f h o w e v e n t s e v o lv e d . Page 27 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : Ye s C h a ir. I - I o m i tt e d to s a y t h a t M r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: Dr Lennon did agree … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR TSOTSI: A n d - a n d I t o l d h i m o f c o u r s e t h a t th e M in is t e r h a d c o n s e n t e d t o th is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d h e a s s u m e d th e d u t ie s o n a n a c t i n g - i n a n a c ti n g c a p a c i ty ? M R T S O T S I : T h i s is n o w b e f o r e h e a s s u m e d t h e jo b . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Before he assumed, but after you had spoken to him? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A f t e r I h a d s p o k e n to h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. C o n t in u e . MR TSOTSI: A n d t h e n a s I s a i d th e E x c o s p e n t a c o u p le o f d a y s lo o k in g a t t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d lo o k i n g - t a k i n g a s tr a t e g i c v i e w o f h o w b e s t t o p o s i ti o n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n g o i n g f o r w a r d a n d i n t h a t p r o c e s s w h e n t h e y c a m e b a c k . Th e y h a d a c o n f ig u r a t i o n o f th e b u s i n e s s w h i c h w a s s li g h tly d i ffe r e n t fr o m w h a t e x i s te d a t t h e ti m e a n d th e n a b o u t t h a t same time just before Mr Dames left I got a call - phone call from 20 M i n is t e r G ig a b a a n d h e w a s q u i t e i r a t e a n d th is w a s a n e x p e r i e n c e I h a d n e v e r h a d w i t h h i m b e fo r e a n d I w a s e x tr e m e ly t a k e n a b a c k a n d h is manner was very surprising, but I - I man aged to calm him down and a n d t o - a n d t o h a v e a p r o p e r c o n v e r s a t i o n w i th h i m a n d t h i s w a s t h e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e a b o u t t o g o to t h e L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t e le c t i o n s i n 2 0 1 4 a n d h e w a s l a m b a s t in g m e f o r o r r a th e r f o r th e B o a r d t o h a v e Page 28 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 r e q u e s t e d a W h i t e m a n to a c t w h e n in fa c t w e w e r e f a c i n g - a n d t h e A N C w a s f a c in g a n e l e c ti o n - a L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t e l e c t io n a n d th is w o u ld p r e j u d ic e … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d w h ic h y e a r y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . I t h o u g h t y o u … M R T S O T S I : 2 0 - t h is w a s 2 0 1 4 . I th i n k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 - y e s . CHAIRPERSON: 2014. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 1 4 I t h i n k w a s g e n e r a l e l e c ti o n . M R T S O T S I : Wa s i t t h e g e n e r a l e l e c ti o n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t - n o t L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t. M R T S O T S I : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR TSOTSI: Sorry about that. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . O k a y. MR TSOTSI: Ye s a n d th a t w e w e r e fa c i n g a n e le c ti o n a n d w e - a n d here we are. W e a r e a p p o in t in g a W h i t e m a n t o - to l e a d th e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d t h i s w o u l d p r e j u d ic e t h e - t h e A N C ’s a b il i ty t o a t tr a c t 20 y o u k n o w - s u p p o r t a n d - a n d I - I s a id i n r e s p o n s e i n t o h i m t h a t l o o k . I d o n o t t h i n k w e s h o u l d b e d is c u s s i n g t h is . C e r t a in ly n o t o v e r t h e p h o n e a n d I - I m a d e i t c l e a r to h i m t h a t I t h o u g h t th a t t h is w a s n o t h i m s p e a k in g . Th a t s o m e o n e h a d p u t h i m u p to t h is a n d h e t h e n s a id t o … CHAIRPERSON: W e r e y o u s a y i n g th a t b e c a u s e h e h a d a p p r o v e d t h a t Page 29 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 you approached Mr Lennon to act? MR TSOTSI: No. I w a s s a y i n g t h a t i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e s ta t e m e n t h e w a s m a k i n g a b o u t m e - u s a p p o i n t i n g a W h i t e m a n t o a c t i n h is - in t h a t p o s i ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Ye s . H m . M R T S O T S I : A n d I s a i d th is is n o t y o u . Yo u - y o u - t h i s i s c e r t a i n l y n o t y o u a s fa r a s I k n o w y o u . S o m e o n e h a s p u t y o u u p t o t h is . S o le t u s ju s t - ju s t n o t g e t i n to t h is . I f y o u w i s h t o h a v e a c o n v e r s a t io n l e t u s h a v e a c o n v e r s a ti o n . I n a n y c a s e a t t h e e n d o f i t a ll h e s a i d h e w o u l d 10 w r i t e m e a l e t t e r a n d th e n h e d id w r i t e a l e tt e r a n d th e le t t e r c a m e a n d - a n d b a s i c a ll y t h e l e tt e r w a s s a y in g t h a t w e s h o u l d s t o p a ll a t t e m p ts t o - w h a t i s t h e w o r d I a m l o o k i n g f o r ? To … C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e c r u it a n e w C E O ? MR TSOTSI: No, no, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : To … M R T S O T S I : To r e s tr u c t u r e . Th a t i s t h e w o r d I a m lo o k in g f o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. MR TSOTSI: We should stop a ll a t te m p t s to r e s tr u c tu r e the o r g a n i s a t io n u n ti l th e n e w C h i e f E x e c u t iv e c o m e s - c o m e s i n to a n d 20 a n d i s i n p la c e a n d t h e n f o ll o w i n g t h a t h e - a t a la t e r d a t e p r i o r to Brian Dames’ leaving. W e a r e s ti ll a t th a t p o in t b e f o r e B r i a n D a m e s ’ was due to leave. H e t h e n a s k e d m e to in f o r m t h e B o a r d th a t h e w o u ld lik e C o li n M a tj il a to a c t . S o I w e n t b a c k t o t h e B o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I m a y h a v e m is s e d s o m e t h i n g . W a s t h a t Page 30 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 in th e l e t te r or was there a subsequent conversation after … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R T S O T S I : N o . T h a t w a s i n a s u b s e q u e n t c o n v e r s a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n v e r s a ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T S O T S I : A n d s o I w e n t b a c k t o th e B o a r d a n d I in f o r m e d t h e B o a r d w a s u n h a p p y, b e c a u s e f l e w i n t h e f a c e o f t h e d e c is i o n t h a t w e h a d m a d e t h a t n o n e o f u s a s B o a r d M e m b e r s w o u ld b e - s h o u l d b e e li g ib le 10 t o - t o a c t i n th e p o s i ti o n o f C h i e f E x e c u t iv e a n d o f c o u r s e Mr M a t ji la was a Board Member at the time. S o th a t i s t o t h e b e s t o f m y r e c o l le c t i o n h o w M r M a tj il a c a m e t o A c t a s t h e C h i e f Ex e c u t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR TSOTSI: N o w w h e n I s a y C h a ir m a n - w h e n I m a k e t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t m y t e r m - y o u k n o w - w a s a b it t u r b u l e n t fr o m a b o u t t h a t ti m e . T h i s w a s a s a r e s u l t o f th e - q u i t e f r a n k l y - t h e u n h a p p i n e s s o f m a n y B o a r d M e m b e r s a b o u t w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a n d i n p a r tic u la r t h e f a c t t h a t C o li n M a tj il a w a s a c t i n g a s a C h a ir - a s t h e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u - d id y o u a t a n y s t a g e s a y to M in is t e r G i g a b a - w h e n h e c r i t ic i s e d y o u fo r w h a t y o u s a y h e c a ll e d s u p p o r ti n g a W h i te m a n t o b e A c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o f E s k o m b e f o r e e l e c ti o n s a n d w h e n h e s a id h e w a n t e d M r M a tj il a t o b e th e A c ti n g C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r d i d y o u e v e r s a y t o h i m , b u t I c o n s u l t e d y o u o n t h e B o a r d ’s c o n te m p l a t i o n t o a p p r o a c h M r L e n n o n to b e t h e A c t in g C h ie f E x e c u t iv e Page 31 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 O ff ic e r a n d y o u g a v e y o u r b l e s s i n g . W h a t h a s c h a n g e d n o w ? W h a t is wrong? M R T S O T S I : I c e r t a in ly d i d . I d o n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r i t w a s d u r i n g t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n o r a f t e r w a r d s , b u t I c e r t a in ly m a d e th e p o in t to h i m . J u s t t o r e m i n d h i m t h a t w e h a d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n a n d h e - h e g a v e h i s c o n s e n t t o - t o D r L e n n o n a c ti n g a n d I o b v i o u s ly w a s p e r p le x e d a s t o w h y t h is c h a n g e o f m in d . CHAIRPERSON: D i d h e g i v e y o u a n e x p la n a t i o n w h a t h a s c h a n g e d ? W h a t - w h a t h a d c a u s e d h i m to c h a n g e h is m i n d ? 10 M R T S O T S I : N o . H e d i d n o t g iv e m e a n e x p l a n a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: He did not? MR TSOTSI: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M r Ts o ts i. Yo u t h e n g o o n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 3 o n p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d t a lk a b o u t a w h is tl e b l o w e r r e p o r t r e g a r d i n g M r M a tj il a ’s c o n d u c t o n t h e R 4 3 m il li o n c o n tr a c t w i t h TN A . C a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e w h is t le b l o w e r r e p o r t a n d h o w it w a s ta k e n u p f u r th e r b y E s k o m ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r a n d I a m s o r r y M r Ts o ts i . J u s t 20 to conclude that part. D i d y o u a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d th e n h a d t h e e m b a r r a s s m e n t o f g o i n g t o Mr L e n n o n t o s a y s o r r y. W e h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t a B o a r d M e m b e r m u s t a c t . S o r r y a b o u t t h a t. MR TSOTSI: C h a ir m a n , I - I a m g l a d y o u r a i s e d t h a t , b e c a u s e i t w a s v e r y e m b a r r a s s in g a n d I f e l t in a w a y I t h o u g h t th e r e w a s a s e n s e o f g u il t o r w h a t e v e r, b u t I d i d g o b a c k t o S t e v e a n d I c o u l d n o t - in a l l Page 32 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 c o n s c i e n c e - s a y t o h i m w h a t G ig a b a t o l d m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : I j u s t fe l t t h a t I c o u l d n o t s a y w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : T h e M i n is te r h a d s a i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: I d o n o t r e c a l l e x a c tly t h e e x c u s e I g a v e h i m , b u t o b v i o u s l y t h is d i d n o t g o d o w n v e r y w e ll w i t h h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: A lr e a d y i n th e in d u s tr y t h e w o r d w a s o u t t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e a c ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n a m o n g h is c o ll e a g u e s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . M R T S O T S I : A m o n g s t h is c o l l e a g u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d a s k e d h i m t o t a l k t o th e m a b o u t r e s t r u c t u r in g and whatever and they … M R T S O T S I : P r e c is e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y k n e w h e w a s g o in g t o b e t h e a c ti n g le a d e r. M R T S O T S I : To t h a t e x t e n t C h a ir S te v e d e c i d e d t h a t a s a r e s u l t o f th a t 20 h e c o u l d n o l o n g e r s e r v in g a t E s k o m . H e f e l t th a t - y o u k n o w - h is in t e g r i ty w a s s o m e h o w a ffr o n t e d b y a ll o f t h is a n d h e t h e n r e q u e s t e d t o r e tir e a t t h a t t i m e . S o it h a s a v e r y u n h a p p y e n d i n g fo r h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. Yo u - y o u m i g h t h a v e t o r e p e a t y o u r q u e s t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I n d e e d . A c t u a ll y C h a ir b e fo r e I g o t o t h e Page 33 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w h is t le b l o w e r r e p o r t. T h e r e is a n a s p e c t t h a t h a s a r i s e n o u t o f y o u r la t e s t q u e s ti o n . I f I m a y j u s t a s k M r Ts o t s i a b o u t i t . M r Ts o t s i a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e p r o v is io n s o f t h e M e m o r a n d u m o f I n c o r p o r a t i o n o f E s k o m f o r t h e A p p o i n t m e n t o f a C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e ? D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t th o s e p r o v i s i o n s s a y a b o u t w h o m a k e s t h e fi n a l a p p o i n t m e n t d e c is i o n ? M R T S O T S I : W h e n I w a s a t E s k o m t h e r e w a s a - t h e r e w a s a t t h e ti m e - th e M in is t e r h a d t h e p r e r o g a tiv e to m a k e t h a t f in a l a p p o i n t m e n t, b u t I u n d e r s t o o d th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e c h a n g e in - i n t h e M O I o n t h a t is s u e . I 10 d o n o t r e c a ll e x a c t ly w h e n th a t c h a n g e h a p p e n e d . W h e th e r i t w a s d u r i n g m y te r m o r w a s i t a f t e r. I d o n o t r e c a l l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C e r t a i n ly t h e v e r s i o n t h a t w e h a v e , b u t I s e e t h a t i t is a S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 4 v e r s io n . S o i t w o u l d h a v e c o m e a ft e r y o u r ti m e . Is a v e r s i o n t h a t s a i d t h a t: “ T h e s h a r e h o ld e r a p p o i n ts th e C h i e f Ex e c u tiv e f r o m a s h o r t li s t o f c a n d i d a te s p r o v i d e d b y th e B o a r d . ” Wa s t h a t o p e r a t iv e a t y o u r ti m e o r w a s t h a t th e n e w i n tr o d u c t i o n ? M R T S O T S I : W e l l w h e n w e - w h e n w e h a d t h e - t h e a p p l ic a ti o n s . W e f o ll o w e d t h a t - t h a t m e t h o d . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : W h e r e w e s u b m it t e d a s h o r tl is t o f t h r e e c a n d i d a te s t o t h e M i n is t e r a n d th is w o u ld h a v e b e e n a f te r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A l th o u g h I a m - I a m r e a l is in g a s I a s k t h e Page 34 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 q u e s t io n . T h e a p p o i n t m e n t a t t h is p o in t a t t h e e n d o f M r D a m e s ’ t e r m … M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s a n - a n a c t i n g a p p o i n t m e n t . Wa s i t n o t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So who had the fi n a l say on a c ti n g a p p o i n t m e n ts ? M R T S O T S I : W e l l I - I d o n o t e x a c tl y k n o w w h a t t h e M O I s a y s o n t h a t one … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : B u t i n t h is i n s t a n c e i t w a s t h e M i n is t e r w h o h a d t h e fi n a l s a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m a n d i n s tr u c t e d th e B o a r d th a t it b e M r M a tji l a . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I f w e c a n t h e n m o v e t o t h e w h is t le b l o w e r r e p o r t . Yo u r a ffi d a v i t in d ic a t e s t h a t t h e r e w a s a w h is t le b l o w e r r e p o r t t h a t w e n t t o t h e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e o f E s k o m . W h a t t h e n happened? 20 MR TSOTSI: W h e n th e n e w s b r o k e t h a t t h e r e w a s t h i s i n c id e n t p e r t a in in g t o t h e s i g n in g o f t h e T N A c o n tr a c t t h e A u d i t a n d R i s k C o m m i t t e e t h e n i n fo r m e d th e B o a r d a n d t h e y h a d m a d e a d e t e r m i n a t io n p r i o r to in f o r m i n g t h e B o a r d t h a t t h i s w a s a n ir r e g u l a r p r o c e s s o r ir r e g u l a r o c c u r r e n c e a n d t h a t t h i s i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e y w o u ld li k e t o h a v e a f o r e n s i c a u d it o n t o e s ta b lis h w it h s o m e i n d e p e n d e n t a u th o r i ty. Page 35 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 I n th is in s ta n c e it w a s t h e S N G C o m p a n y w h o t h e n w a s a s k e d b y th e A u d i t & R i s k C o m m i t t e e to in v e s t i g a t e j u s t w h a t h a p p e n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o s o m e o f t h e in t e r a c ti o n s t h a t s t a r t e d t o t a k e p l a c e w it h i n E s k o m , a f t e r S N G w a s a p p o i n t e d , a n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e I w o u ld li k e y o u t o g o i n E X H I B I T M M 6 , w h ic h is t h e o n e in fr o n t o f y o u , t o p a g e 2 1 8 . Mr Ts o ts i y o u w i ll s e e a t p a g e 2 1 8 in t h e s e c o n d h a l f o f th e p a g e i s th e fi r s t e m a i l th a t w e s h o u l d b e l o o k i n g a t , a n d it is a n e m a il d a t e d t h e 1 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , a n d i t is fr o m M r C o li n M a t ji l a to Vu s m u s i M a s i le l a . 10 Do you k n o w w h o M r M a s il e l a w a s ? MR TSOTSI: Mr M a s il e la w a s th e g e n tl e m a n w h o s i g n e d o ff o n t h i s SNG. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: S o h e w a s a n S N G e m p l o y e e , is th a t r i g h t? Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. And if you look at what Mr M a t jil a is s a y i n g to M r M a s il e l a o n t h a t d a t e in t h is e m a il , t h e e m a i l r e a d s , i t is q u i te s h o r t , I w il l j u s t r e a d i t i n t o t h e r e c o r d . “ D e a r Vu s m u s i , I r e fe r t o t h e a b o v e r e v i e w r e q u e s te d b y t h e A u d it & R is k 20 Committee.” Yo u w il l s e e th e s u b j e c t o f t h e e m a il i s T N A C o n t r a c t r e v ie w. Mr M a t jil a g o e s o n : “ I h a v e b e e n i n fo r m e d b y o u r c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y t h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y m e t w it h s o m e o f t h e m a n a g e r s a s p a r t o f th e r e v ie w. I n e e d t o p o in t o u t t h a t th is is ir r e g u l a r a s I Page 36 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 e x p e c te d y o u t o h a v e in f o r m e d a s th e C E to e n s u r e p r o p e r c o o r d i n a t io n . B e t h a t a s i t m a y b e p le a s e in d ic a t e w h o e l s e y o u n e e d t o i n t e r v ie w, w h a t d o c u m e n t a t i o n y o u r e q u ir e a n d w h a t k e y is s u e s y o u w o u l d w a n t to c o v e r i n t h e s e in t e r v i e w s . T h i s is i n t e n d e d t o fa c i li t a t e p r o d u c ti v e o u t c o m e s o f t h e s e m e e ti n g s . Regards, C o li n ” M r Ts o ts i w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t M r M a t ji la w a s e n g a g in g w i th S N G li k e 10 t h is a t t h e t i m e ? MR TSOTSI: N o I w a s n o t, t h i s is t h e fi r s t ti m e I s e e t h i s e m a il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u ld t h i s s o r t o f e n g a g e m e n t h a v e c o n c e r n e d y o u a t th e ti m e if y o u h a d b e e n a w a r e o f i t? MR TSOTSI: C o n s i d e r i n g t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s a s u b j e c t o f th is m a t te r I w o u l d h a v e b e e n s u r p r is e d a t h i m c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i t h S N G . However h e b e in g t h e C h ie f E x e c u ti v e t h e p e o p l e w h o h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e consulted b y, SNG, report to him, so in a sense I have an u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h y h e i s i n v o lv i n g h i m s e l f b e c a u s e i t is h is p e o p le , t h e y r e p o r t t o h i m , b u t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t t h is k i n d o f 20 c o m m u n ic a ti o n w o u ld h a v e c o m e t h e A R C n o t fr o m h i m , f o r t h e s i m p l e r e a s o n t h a t h e w a s th e s u b j e c t o f t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d a n d i n f a c t t h a t ’s p r e c i s e ly w h a t Mr M a s il e la r e s p o n d s to M r M a t ji la w i t h if y o u g o t o t h e e m a il a t t h e to p o f t h e p a g e , b e c a u s e Mr M a t jil a i n s u m m a r y m a k e s it c l e a r t h a t th e i r m a n d a t e c o m e s fr o m t h e A u d i t & R is k C o m m i t t e e a n d s o t h e y w il l b e Page 37 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 e n g a g i n g w i t h th e A u d i t & R is k C o m m i t t e e i n th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n , a n d n o t w i t h M r M a t ji la . T h e y s a y t h e y a r e h a p p y t o a n d th e y w il l s c h e d u l e a c o n s u l t a ti o n w it h h i m . B u t n o w I h a v e i t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e is it w o u l d n o t b e a p p r o p r i a t e f o r t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n to b e a r r a n g i n g w h e n a n d w h o a n d o n w h a t d o c u m e n ts t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e a c c e s s to. MR TSOTSI: Ye s , n o t o n ly t h a t, b u t h e d i d n o t in i ti a te t h e p r o c e s s , t h e w a s i n i ti a t e d o r t h e p a r ty t h a t in i ti a te d t h e p r o c e s s s h o u ld t a k e 10 r e s p o n s i b i li ty. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. L e t ’s t h e n m o v e i n t i m e t o O c to b e r, t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g o f S e p t e m b e r o f 2 0 1 4 , w e c a n n o w m o v e to O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 4 a n d i f y o u w il l p i c k i t u p a t p a g e 2 2 1 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e , th a t is E X H I B I T M M 6 . N o w t h is is a n e m a i l fr o m M a s e l e la K u b u d j e , w h o is t h a t ? MR TSOTSI: M r M a s e l e l a , th is w o u l d b e – w e l l t h e r e is a M a s e le la w h o w a s t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y, t h a t is h is fir s t n a m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: 20 Indeed. So I am not sure whether that refers to him. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h in k it d o e s b e c a u s e i f y o u j u s t lo o k a t t h e b o t t o m , s o r r y n o , i t is M r K u p u d je . MR TSOTSI: Kupudje yes, that is him. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o is t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y, i f y o u s e e i n t h e t o p li n e , w r it i n g t o Mr M a s e le l a w h o is t h e S N G p e r s o n . MR TSOTSI: O h , I s e e , o k a y, s o r r y. Page 38 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r ta i n ly. N o w t h i s is 1 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 , d o y o u r e c a ll w h e n t h e S N G r e p o r t w a s r e q u ir e d t o b e p r o v id e d o n th is r e v ie w, t h e d a t e t h a t i t w a s d u e ? MR TSOTSI: I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d m id - N o v e m b e r, I d o n ’t r e c a l l the date. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i n f a i r n e s s M r Ts o t s i i t is m a n y y e a r s a g o . A s w e h a v e b e e n a b le to p ie c e to g e th e r i t w a s a c t u a ll y o n th is d a te , t h e 1 6 t h o f O c to b e r t h a t A R C h a d r e q u e s t e d t h a t th e r e p o r t b e p r o v i d e d to it . 10 MR TSOTSI: O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h i s e m a il , a n d l e t ’s t a k e a l o o k a t w h a t i t s a y s . I t is fr o m t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y a n d i t is w r i t t e n M r M a s e le la a t S N G , i t s a y s : “Dear Maselela, I r e f e r to th e a b o v e m a tt e r [ th e a b o v e m a tt e r i n th e s u b j e c t li n e i s T N A M e d ia c o n tr a c t r e v i e w r e p o r t ] , w r it e to y o u t o a d v is e t h a t o u r C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d , M r Z o la Ts o ts i, h a s r e q u e s t e d th a t y o u s h o u ld n o t r e l e a s e th e r e p o r t r e g a r d i n g t h e r e v ie w t o Es k o m u n ti l h e h a s h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty to m e e t w i t h t h e C h a ir m a n a n d C E O o f S N G . ” 20 M r Ts o ts i d o y o u r e c a l l a s k i n g th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y t o s e n d o u t t h a t email? MR TSOTSI: I don’t recall but I must have, I must have asked him but I d o n ’ t s p e c i f ic a l ly r e c a l l y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r r e a s o n fo r d o i n g s o ? Page 39 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I n e e d e d t o s p e a k t o t h e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e o f S N G a n d t h e r e r e a s o n I n e e d e d to s p e a k t h e l a d y w a s b e c a u s e M r M a tj il a h a d c l e a r ly s t a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e c o m p a n y is n o t tr e a t in g h i m p r o p e r ly a n d f a ir ly a n d t h a t h e h a s r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e h e h a s a p p r o a c h e d h is la w y e r s a n d t h a t h e h a s i n m i n d to l it i g a t e a g a in s t E s k o m , a g a i n s t t h e B o a r d , b e c a u s e h e fe e ls th a t h e is n o t b e i n g tr e a t e d f a ir ly a n d c o r r e c t ly. S o o n c e I g o t t h i s i n fo r m a ti o n f r o m h i m a n d t h is f e e li n g th a t – t h a t v e r y s tr o n g fe e l i n g t h a t h e h a d , I t h e n th o u g h t t h a t t h is S N G r e p o r t 10 w o u ld i n v a r i a b l y th e n b e c o m e s u b j e c t o f e v id e n c e in li t ig a t io n , s o I t h e n d e c i d e d le t m e s p e a k to S N G b e fo r e t h e y r e l e a s e t h e r e p o r t , to s a y t o t h e m l o o k w e c o u ld b e – th e B o a r d c o u l d b e f a c in g li t ig a ti o n a n d I j u s t w a n t e d t o b e q u i t e c o m f o r ta b l e a n d c e r t a i n th a t y o u a r e q u i te c l e a r a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u w il l b e a b le t o s u p p o r t w h a t y o u h a v e p r o d u c e d , t h e c o n c l u s i o n s y o u h a v e c o m e t o , w h a t e v e r c o n c l u s io n s th a t m a y b e , i n a c o u r t o f la w, a n d th a t E s k o m w o u ld b e p r o te c t e d s h o u l d t h e r e b e a n y li ti g a t i o n a g a in s t i t . T h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n a n d th a t w a s t h e s u b s t a n c e o f w h a t I t a lk e d a b o u t t o h e r. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o t s i i n p r e p a r a ti o n fo r y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y w e o b t a i n e d t h e tr a n s c r ip t fr o m t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e i t i n 2 0 1 7 o n t h e 2 2 n d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 a n d i n th e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e p o r t f o l i o c o m m i t t e e a s i t is r e f l e c te d in th e t r a n s c r i p t y o u ta lk a b o u t a n i n t e r a c ti o n t h a t y o u h a d w i th M r To n y G u p t a i n w h i c h h e a t th e t i m e t h a t t h is i s s u e o f M a tj il a , M r M a t ji la ’s Page 40 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 s ig n in g o f t h e T N A c o n tr a c t f o r R 4 3 m i ll io n w a s b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d b y E s k o m a n d y o u i n d ic a t e th a t in t h a t i n t e r a c ti o n M r G u p t a s a id t o y o u w h y c a n ’ t y o u m a k e th is p r o b l e m g o a w a y. D o y o u r e c a ll g iv in g t h a t evidence? MR TSOTSI: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d i n M r Ts o t s i is ju s t t r y i n g t o p l a c e th a t in t i m e , t h a t i n te r a c t io n , b e c a u s e y o u r e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h e p o r t f o l i o c o m m i t t e e a s w e r e a d i t , it d id n ’ t m a k e i t c l e a r a s e x a c tly w h e n in t h e c o u r s e o f t h is y e a r, s in c e A p r il 2 0 1 4 a n d M r M a t ji l a 10 c o n c l u d e d t h is c o n tr a c t th a t y o u h a d t h i s in t e r a c ti o n w i th M r G u p t a . Can you help us with that? D i d i t fo r e x a m p l e p r o c e e d t h i s e m a il o n th e 1 6 t h o f O c to b e r w h e r e y o u a s k f o r t h e r e p o r t n o t t o b e r e l e a s e d u n t il y o u h a v e s p o k e n t o t h e C h i e f Ex e c u t iv e o f S N G o r w a s i t a f t e r th a t ? MR TSOTSI: I h o n e s tly c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r s p e c i fi c a ll y w h e th e r i t w a s b e f o r e o r a f t e r, b u t i t w a s c e r ta i n ly a f t e r th e is s u e w a s b e f o r e t h e Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t’s ju s t g o i n t o a b it m o r e d e ta il a b o u t th a t in t e r a c ti o n , b e c a u s e i t w a s a c tu a l ly q u it e b r i e f y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n o f i t a s 20 I h a v e i t fr o m t h e tr a n s c r ip t . Te l l u s h o w i t c o m e s a b o u t . Why are in t e r a c ti n g w i t h Mr G u p t a , a n d w h e r e d i d t h is c o n v e r s a t io n t a k e p l a c e , if it w a s a c o n v e r s a t io n ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I – t o m y r e c o ll e c ti o n t h is is o n e o f t h e f e w o c c a s i o n s t h a t I h a v e h a d c o n t a c t w i t h To n y G u p t a . H e c a ll e d m e a n d h e a s k e d m e i f I c o u l d s e e h i m , a n d I s a i d t o h i m y o u r o p p o r tu n it y I Page 41 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w o u ld h a v e is w h e n I a m g o i n g t o a m e e ti n g i n P r e t o r ia a n d h e s a i d i t’s fi n e , b e f o r e I g e t t o P r e to r i a c a n I s t o p a t th e S a h a r a o ffi c e s , w h ic h w o u ld b e i n M i d r a n d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: C a n I ju s t i n te r r u p t y o u M r Ts o ts i, d o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r t h is w a s th e fi r s t c o n t a c t y o u w e r e h a v i n g w i th h i m o r y o u k n e w e a c h o th e r o r h a d b e e n i n t o u c h w i th e a c h o th e r b e f o r e ? MR TSOTSI: C h a i r w e h a d b e e n in t o u c h b e f o r e . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: 10 O k a y, a lr i g h t , o k a y. S o I t h e n s a i d f in e a n d w h e n t h e ti m e c a m e I w e n t a n d s t o p p e d a t t h e S a h a r a o ffic e s a n d in d e e d h e w a s t h e r e a n d I m e t h i m b r i e fl y, i t w a s q u i t e b r i e f . H e s a i d t o m e C h a ir m a n w e h a v e a p r o b l e m h e r e t h a t t h e r e is s o m e is s u e t o d o w i t h th e s i g n in g o f o u r c o n tr a c t a n d t h a t t h e r e is s o m e p r o b l e m w h ic h w e d o n ’ t e x a c tl y u n d e r s ta n d a n d w h a t w e u n d e r s to o d i s th a t M r M a tj il a d i d s o m e th in g w r o n g i n s i g n i n g th is c o n tr a c t. S o I s a i d o k a y a n d t h e n , a n d t h e n h e s a y s to m e w e l l y o u w e r e t h e C h a ir m a n a n d a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d th is is a m a t t e r t h a t w e c a n d e a l w i th . S o I a s k e d h i m h o w d o y o u s u p p o s e I c a n d e a l w i th i t , w h a t is it t h a t y o u w a n t . S o h e s a i d w h a t I w o u l d lik e t o s e e h a p p e n i s fo r 20 t h is t h i n g t o g o a w a y, s o c a n y o u m a k e t h i s t h i n g g o a w a y. CHAIRPERSON: T h e t h in g , w a s t h e t h i n g th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? The r e fe r e n c e to t h e t h i n g w a s it a r e fe r e n c e to th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? MR TSOTSI: W e ll I t h i n k i t w a s th e in v e s t ig a ti o n w h ic h o b v i o u s l y w a s a th in g t h a t i m p e d e d th e s ig n in g o f t h e c o n tr a c t , s o I a m a s s u m in g h e is t a lk in g a b o u t t h a t. Page 42 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: At least that was your understanding? O k a y. A n d t h e n I s a i d t o h i m To n y th e r e a r e – fir s t o f a ll th e r e p r o c e s s e s in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n t h a t h a v e t o b e fo ll o w e d . S e c o n d ly I d o n ’t h a v e th e o p e r a ti o n a l a u t h o r i ty t o i n t e r v e n e in d e c is i o n s t h a t a r e m a d e b y m a n a g e m e n t a n d b e s i d e s t h a t t h e r e is a f o r m a l p r o c e s s n o w u n d e r w a y w h ic h is a n i n q u ir y i n t o w h a t tr a n s p ir e d i n t h e s i g n i n g o f t h is c o n tr a c t a n d t h a t I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e a u t h o r i t y t o p r e v e n t o r i n t e r fe r e w i t h , 10 s o I a m a fr a i d I c a n n o t h e l p y o u , a n d h e w a s – w e l l f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e I h a v e t o s a y s in c e I h a v e d e a lt w i th h i m h e w a s v is i b ly u p s e t , a n d h e d i d m a k e a s t a t e m e n t t h a t i t a p p e a r s th a t I a m n o t i n te r e s t e d in a s s i s ti n g him. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Pl e a s e j u s t r e p e a t t h e s t a te m e n t th a t h e m a d e . H e s a i d t o m e i t a p p e a r s t o h i m t h a t I a m n o t in t e r e s t e d in a s s is ti n g h i m , w h ic h w a s a s ta t e m e n t h e w a s t o m a k e in a m u c h m o r e t h r e a t e n i n g w a y m u c h l a te r o n . Th a t ’s w h e r e th e m a t te r e n d e d . CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 C a n I a s k j u s t C h a ir w e a r e a t t h e t e a b r e a k b u t i f I m a y j u s t c o n c lu d e th is a s p e c t , t h e r e a r e a f e w f o ll o w - u p q u e s t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s th e r e a n y o n e e ls e i n th e r o o m w i t h y o u w h e n y o u h a d t h i s d is c u s s i o n w i t h Mr G u p t a ? MR TSOTSI: N o , th e r e w a s n o b o d y e l s e . Page 43 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a m g o i n g to tr y a n d l o c a t e t h i s c o n v e r s a ti o n i n ti m e , I a m i n t e r e s te d t o k n o w w h e t h e r M r G u p t a m a d e a n y r e f e r e n c e t o in v o ic e s th a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n is s u e d in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t c o n t r a c t t h a t w e r e u n p a id , d i d h e m a k e a n y r e f e r e n c e to t h a t ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I d o n ’ t s p e c if ic a l ly r e c a l l th a t h e m a d e r e f e r e n c e to in v o ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t is i t fa ir b a s e d o n w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d to a t l e a s t b e a b l e to l o c a t e th e i n t e r a c t io n i n ti m e a f t e r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n h a d c o m m e n c e d , b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d p a r t o f w h a t y o u s a i d t o Mr 10 G u p t a is t h e r e ’s a f o r m a l p r o c e s s u n d e r w a y a n d I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y a u t h o r i ty t o p r e v e n t i t , s o c a n w e a t le a s t s a y i t h a p p e n e d a t s o m e p o i n t a f te r S N G w a s a p p o i n t e d b y A R C t o r u n t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n ? MR TSOTSI: I t w a s d u r in g th e ti m e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n c e r t a i n ly y e s , b u t e x a c tl y a t w h a t s t a g e I d o n ’ t r e c a l l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you, thank you. C h a ir i t m a y b e c o n v e n i e n t t o t a k e th e te a b r e a k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, w e w i ll t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k n o w, i t is t w e n ty p a s t o n m y w a tc h a n d w e w il l r e s u m e a t tw e n ty f iv e t o tw e lv e . We adjourn. 20 REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d j u s t s o th a t e v e r y b o d y k n o w s w e w i ll ta k e a b r e a k a t q u a r t e r p a s t t w e lv e b e c a u s e I w i ll b e n e e d i n g t o have a media conference next door or behind where I am. Page 44 of 159 Because 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 c e r t a i n m e m b e r s o f t h e m e d ia h a v e b e e n r e q u e s ti n g c e r t a in i n fo r m a ti o n in a n i n t e r v i e w s o t o m a k e it e a s y a n d a v o i d h a v i n g m u l ti p l e i n te r v i e w s it i s b e t t e r t o h a v e o n e m e d ia c o n f e r e n c e w i t h a l l o f t h e m th e r e s o t h e y c a n – w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e ir q u e s t io n s a t t h e s a m e ti m e . S o I t h o u g h t I m u s t ju s t m a k e s u r e e v e r y b o d y k n o w s w e w i ll ta k e a b r e a k a t q u a r t e r p a s t t w e lv e a n d w e w il l n o t r e tu r n u n ti l a f te r l u n c h . Okay thank you. Ye s w e m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Ts o ts i w e a r e i n a r o u n d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 a t t h e m o m e n t i f w e fo ll o w i n g t h e c h r o n o l o g y o f e v e n t s 10 b e c a u s e y o u w il l r e c a ll th a t e m a il t h a t t h e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y s e n t o u t a s k in g f o r t h e r e p o r t n o t to b e r e le a s e d u n til y o u h a d e n g a g e d w i t h t h e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o f S N G w a s d a t e d a b o u t th e 1 6 O c t o b e r. Were you a w a r e a t t h a t ti m e a b o u t m e d i a r e p o r t in g r e g a r d i n g th is c o n t r a c t ? M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly r e c a ll m e d i a r e p o r ti n g a b o u t – a b o u t t h is c o n tr a c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. B u t w o u l d i t s u r p r i s e y o u to le a r n th a t … M R T S O T S I : S o r r y C h a ir j u s t in t e r m s o f ti m i n g I a m – I d o k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e m e d ia r e p o r ts a b o u t t h e c o n tr a c t b u t i n t e r m s o f ti m i n g p r e c i s e ly I d o n o t r e c a l l w e ll . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A lr i g h t. W e ll I d o n o t n e e d to ta k e y o u t o t h e m b u t c e r ta i n ly th e f ir s t o n e th a t w e w e r e a b l e t o fi n d w a s a M a il a n d G u a r d i a n r e p o r t o f t h e 2 4 O c t o b e r a n d t h e n t h e r e is a l a t e r o n e in N o v e m b e r. So it is around the end of October it seems from our in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t t h e m e d i a g e t s w i n d o f th is , u n d e r s t a n d s th a t th e B o a r d – th a t t h e a ll e g a ti o n s a r e M r M a tj il a e n t e r e d i n to t h e c o n t r a c t Page 45 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w i t h o u t a u t h o r i ty a n d th e r e is s o m e c o n c e r n a b o u t w h e t h e r c o m m i t t i n g R 4 3 m ill i o n a t th is s ta g e o f E s k o m ’s p r e c a r io u s fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n to T N A M e d i a is a s e n s i b l e d e c is io n t o ta k e . D o y o u r e c a ll b e in g a w a r e g e n e r a l ly o f t h o s e r e p o r ts ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I a m . I a m a w a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d th e n l ik e t o g o to t h e e n d o f O c t o b e r, t h e 2 9 O c t o b e r b e c a u s e o n th a t d a t e y o u r e c e iv e d a l e tt e r fr o m t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r. Yo u w ill r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e r e w a s t h a t p r e v i o u s e n g a g e m e n t in 2 0 1 3 t h a t w e d e a l t w it h a r o u n d A u g u s t w h e r e M in is t e r 10 G ig a b a w r i t e s t o y o u b e c a u s e t h e P u b l i c Pr o t e c to r is in t e r e s t e d i n g e n e r a l ly S O E ’s a n d t h e ir c o n tr a c ti n g w i t h T N A a n d th e r e s p o n s e t o t h a t w a s p r o d u c e d a n d s i g n e d b y M r D u P le s s i s a n d w e l o o k e d a t th a t response. O u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e v e a ls t h e s e c o n d ti m e t h a t th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r e n g a g e d E s k o m i n r e l a ti o n to t h e s e m a t te r s o c c u r r e d o n t h e 2 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 . A n d y o u w il l f in d h e r l e t t e r i n y o u r b u n d l e w h ic h M M 6 at page 364. M r Ts o ts i y o u w il l s e e th a t th is is a le t t e r d a t e d 2 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 . I t is a d d r e s s e d t o y o u a n d o v e r t h e p a g e it a p p e a r s t o b e s ig n e d b y A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e l a w h e n s h e w a s i n t h e o ffic e o f th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r. D o y o u r e c a l l t h is e n g a g e m e n t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 20 October 2014? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I d o r e m e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s j u s t l o o k a t w h a t M s M a d o n s e la – A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e la w a s s a y in g a t t h e t i m e . I n p a r a g r a p h 1 s h e r e f e r s t o th e l e t t e r fr o m M r D u P l e s s i s d a t e d 1 9 N o v e m b e r a n d s h e i n d ic a te s t o y o u t h a t s h e is f in a lis i n g t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d s h e i s i n th e p r o c e s s Page 46 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 o f d r a f ti n g a p r o v i s i o n a l r e p o r t . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e g o e s o n a n d s h e s a y s : “ I t h a s s i n c e c o m e t o my a tt e n ti o n t h r o u g h th e media.” S o y o u w i ll r e c a ll I i n d ic a t e d t o y o u t h e M a il a n d G u a r d ia n r e p o r t i n g t h a t w e h a v e m a n a g e d t o fi n d w a s 2 4 O c to b e r s o w i t h i n a b o u t fiv e d a y s s h e a p p e a r s to b e w r i ti n g t h i s le t t e r. A n d s h e s a y s th a t s h e h a s le a r n t t h r o u g h th e m e d i a t h a t n o t w i t h s ta n d i n g h e r o n g o i n g i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h e 10 a b o v e m a t te r E s k o m ’s f o r m e r i n t e r i m C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e o ffic e r, Mr M a tj il a h a s s u b s e q u e n t ly e n te r e d in t o a n e w a n d s i m il a r b r e a k f a s t s p o n s o r s h i p d e a l w o r t h R 4 3 m il li o n w i t h t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r. A n d i f y o u g o o v e r that page she says: “ I t h a s b e e n fu r t h e r a l l e g e d t h a t th e n e w d e a l w a s concluded against the advice of the Board and in t o t a l d is r e g a r d o f in t e r n a l l e g a l a d v ic e . T h e d e a l i s a ls o a l l e g e d t o b e a n a u d i t r is k a s i t e x c e e d e d th e sponsorship budget.” And she goes on at paragraph 5 on that page to say: 20 “In th e in t e r e s t tr a n s p a r e n c y and of c o o p e r a tiv e a c c o u n t a b i li ty I governance, im plore that E s k o m ’s n e w s p o n s o r s h i p d e a l w it h t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r s h o u l d b e h e l d i n a b e y a n c e p e n d in g th e r e l e a s e o f m y p r o v is io n a l r e p o r t . ” A n d th e n s h e a s k s f o r c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s t o a s s i s t h e r. S h e w a n ts t h e Page 47 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 minutes o f th e Board m e e ti n g s a g r e e m e n t w a s d e l ib e r a te d u p o n . and r e s o l u ti o n s where the new And she wants a copy of the R43 m il li o n c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n T N A a n d E s k o m . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u d o in r e s p o n s e t o t h i s l e tt e r ? M R T S O T S I : C h a ir a s w a s t h e p r a c t ic e I a s k e d o u r l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t t o lo o k a t t h is le t t e r a n d r e s p o n d a p p r o p r i a te l y. A n d th e n t h e y w o u l d h a v e d o n e s o a n d c o m e b a c k t o m e w i t h t h e l e t t e r fo r m e t o s i g n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Th a n k y o u . W e w i ll p i c k u p t h a t l e t te r i n d u e c o u r s e if w e m a y, y o u r r e s p o n s e b a c k t o h e r ? A t t h e m o m e n t I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o fo ll o w t h e c h r o n o lo g y b e c a u s e t h a t r e s p o n s e e n d s u p a c t u a l ly o n ly g o in g b a c k t o h e r o n th e 9 D e c e m b e r b u t w e w il l g e t t o i t i n a moment if we may? N o w s h e m a k e s r e fe r e n c e to – in t h i s l e tt e r E s k o m ’s f o r m e r i n t e r i m C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r Mr M a t ji l a . Do you r e c a l l th a t a t p a g e 3 4 6 a t th e b o t t o m a t p a r a g r a p h 2 ? MR TSOTSI: 346? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y 3 6 4 a p o l o g i e s I h a v e i n v e r te d th e numbers. 364 at paragraph 2 at the bottom there she says: “ T h e m e d i a in d i c a t e s t h a t E s k o m ’s f o r m e r i n te r i m C h ie f E x e c u tiv e 20 O ff ic e r M r C o li n M a tj il a h a s s u b s e q u e n t ly e n te r e d i n to a n e w a n d s i m il a r b r e a k f a s t s p o n s o r s h i p . ” Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e is r e f e r r in g t o h i m a s t h e f o r m e r i n te r i m C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r. S o w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t o M r M a tj il a b y t h is Page 48 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 stage? M R T S O T S I : N o n o t h i n g a s fa r a s I c a n r e c a l l h e w a s s ti ll t h e in t e r i m C h i e f E x e c u tiv e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n h e s e i z e d b e in g i n t e r i m C h i e f E x e c u tiv e ? M R T S O T S I : C h a ir t h is p r o b a b ly w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e t i m e in – i s i t e a r ly D e c e m b e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w o u r r e c o r d s … MR TSOTSI: I suspect. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e e m t o in d ic a t e i t w a s a fe w d a y s a f t e r t h is a t t h e e n d o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . M R T S O T S I : Wa s i t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d t h a t – b u t a f te r M s M a d o n s e l a ’s le t t e r c e r t a i n l y. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e r e c o r d s th a t w e h a v e o b ta i n e d fr o m E s k o m i n d i c a t e h e h e l d t h e p o s i ti o n u n t i l 3 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 . Do you r e c a l l w h o r e p la c e d h i m ? M R T S O T S I : N o th e lik e li h o o d i s th a t th e s u b s t a n t iv e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e 20 w o u ld h a v e b e e n in p l a c e b y t h e n f o l l o w i n g h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a t o n a ? MR TSOTSI: Mr Matona yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in ly o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s r e v e a l th a t M r M a t o n a w a s i n t h a t p o s i t io n fr o m 1 N o v e m b e r. When – why was Mr M a t jil a r e m o v e d a s i n t e r i m C h i e f E x e c u ti v e a t t h e e n d o f O c t o b e r ? Page 49 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : W e l l th e r e a s o n w a s b e c a u s e t h e p r o c e s s o f a p p o i n ti n g a n e w C h i e f E x e c u tiv e h a d b e e n c o m p l e te d a n d t h a t M r M a t o n a w a s a v a i la b le t o t a k e u p t h e p o s i t io n a s o f t h e 1 N o v e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h h is i n v o lv e m e n t i n t h e T N A c o n tr a c t? MR TSOTSI: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . A n d w h a t p o s it io n d i d M r M a tj il a t h e n h o l d a t E s k o m w h e n h e w a s n o lo n g e r i n te r i m C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e ? MR TSOTSI: 10 W e l l h e r e v e r t e d b a c k t o w h o s e p o s i t io n h e w a s w h ic h was the – he was a member of the Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e c a l l h o w l o n g h e h e ld t h a t p o s i ti o n ? MR TSOTSI: T h a t is w h e n I t h in k e a r l y D e c e m b e r c o m e s i n t o th e p ic t u r e . I t h in k h e – I t h i n k h e – j a b e c a u s e I w a s t h i n k in g a b o u t h is a c t u a l d e p a r t u r e fr o m E s k o m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : J a I t h i n k h e l e ft E s k o m in e a r l y D e c e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . W a s it w i t h i n t h e r e s h u ff le ? Because r e m e m b e r t h e r e s h u ff l e h a p p e n s o n t h e 11 D e c e m b e r a n d a s I 20 u n d e r s t a n d th e f a c ts a n d w e h a v e h a d t h e s e fa c ts p r e s e n t e d in e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s io n h e w a s n o t o n e o f t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o w a s k e p t o n in t h e n e w B o a r d , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s b u t I t h in k t h e r e is m o r e t o i t t h a n th a t . I t h i n k – I s t a n d t o b e c o r r e c t e d h e r e C h a ir. I t h i n k h e a c t u a l ly r e s i g n e d fr o m t h e B o a r d b e fo r e t h e B o a r d ’s te r m w a s o v e r. Page 50 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. And that would have been some d a t e i n D e c e m b e r b u t b e f o r e 1 D e c e m b e r. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e th a t is th e d a te o f th e c h a n g e , i s t h a t correct? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. S o a t n o p o in t w a s t h e r e a n y d e c is i o n t o m o v e h i m o u t o f a C h i e f E x e c u tiv e r o l e b e c a u s e o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n in t h e T N A m a t t e r. I t w a s s i m p ly t h a t t h e p r o c e s s f o r t h e 10 n e w C h i e f E x e c u tiv e h a d c o m p le t e d . Is th a t r i g h t ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . N o w t h e n e x t t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n s i s o n t h e 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . T h e A R C C h a ir p e r s o n M s L u t h u li s e n d s t h e S N G r e p o r t t o th e B o a r d . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t ? M R T S O T S I : I r e c a ll – I r e c a ll t h a t a c ti o n y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I d o n o t th i n k w e n e e d t o g o t h e r e . J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d i t a p p e a r s in y o u r b u n d l e M M 6 a t p a g e 2 3 3 . S o o n t h e 7 N o v e m b e r th e B o a r d o f E s k o m g e ts t h e S N G r e p o r t a n d i t i s c ir c u l a t e d b y t h e A R C C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 A n d t h e n i f w e fo ll o w t h e c h r o n o lo g y M r Ts o t s i t h e r e is a s e r i e s o f B o a r d m e e ti n g s t h a t f o l lo w r e c e i p t o f th a t r e p o r t . D o y o u r e c a ll t h o s e B o a r d m e e ti n g s ? MR TSOTSI: I d o r e c a ll C h a ir t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f B o a r d m e e t in g s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l l e t u s g o t o e a c h o f th e m i f w e m a y ? A n d w e w i ll n o w n e e d t o m o v e i n t o th e b u n d l e c o n t a i n i n g M r P a m e n s k y ’s Page 51 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 e v i d e n c e . B e c a u s e w e d e a l t w it h t h is f ir s t w i t h h i m . Yo u w il l fi n d t h a t in E x h i b i t M M 3 . A n d w e n e e d t o g o to p a g e 3 3 6 i n t h a t b u n d le . M R T S O T S I : 3 3 6 . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. N o w y o u w i ll s e e 3 3 6 is a d o c u m e n t e n ti tl e d M in u t e s o f th e E s k o m B o a r d M e e t in g . A n d th e n th e r e is a p a r tic u la r n u m b e r g iv e n t o t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g h e l d o n 2 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 i n a r e l e v a n t b o a r d r o o m a t M e g a w a t t P a r k fr o m 5 in th e e v e n in g . Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w M r Ts o t s i b e f o r e w e g o in t o w h a t i s r e c o r d e d a b o u t t h i s m e e ti n g i n t h e m i n u t e s c a n y o u j u s t t e l l u s a l o n g s i d e S N G ’s i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to t h i s m a tt e r t h e r e w e r e t h e i n t e r i m fi n a n c i a l r e s u lt s o f E s k o m t h a t n e e d e d to b e f i n a lis e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t is s u e h a d S N G r a i s e d i n r e l a t i o n to t h o s e fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s a r o u n d t h e T N A c o n t r a c t f o r R 4 3 m il li o n ? M R T S O T S I : C h a i r t h e – th e i s s u e f o r t h e a u d i t o r s w a s th a t – b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n a l l e g e d ir r e g u l a r it y th e a u d i t r e g u la t o r r e q u ir e s t h a t t h is b e r e p o r t e d i n t h e f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts . A n d s o w e h a v e h a d – w e h a d 20 a n e n g a g e m e n t w i t h th e a u d i t o r s w e t h e n e x p l a i n e d t o th e B o a r d p r e c i s e ly w h a t s t e p s n e e d t o b e t a k e n in r e g a r d t o a d d r e s s i n g a n ir r e g u l a r i ty i n th e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d a s w e h a v e p r e v io u s ly l o o k e d a t t h e in t e r i m f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts i n M r P a m e n s k y ’s e v i d e n c e b u t th e y d i d d is c l o s e i n th o s e i n te r i m fi n a n c i a l r e s u l ts t h a t t h e r e w a s t h is a l le g a t i o n Page 52 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 o f ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e a n d th a t t h e B o a r d w a s p r e s e n tl y c o n s id e r in g t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h e r e v u e t h a t h a d b e e n c o n d u c t e d . Now as I have it t h is m e e ti n g t h a t y o u c o n v e n e d o n th e 2 4 N o v e m b e r w a s p r e c i s e ly to d e a l w i t h h o w th is w a s g o i n g t o b e r e p o r t e d i n t h e i n t e r i m f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts . D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r m e m o r y ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o t h e n to p a g e 3 3 7 . B e c a u s e in th is – y o u – w e r e y o u p r e s e n t a t t h is m e e t in g Mr Ts o t s i ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I w a s p r e s e n t a t t h i s m e e ti n g . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w e r e i n t h e p o s i ti o n o f C h a ir a t t h a t stage, correct? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n w e s e e a t p a g e 3 3 7 m i d w a y d o w n t h e p a g e j u s t a f t e r th e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e t h e r e i s a p a r a g r a p h t h e r e t h a t says: “ T h e C h a i r m a n r e p o r t e d t h a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l fr o m M r M a t j il a in r e s p o n s e t o M s M a s i t e l e ’s e m a i l a r o u n d t h e l e g a li t y o f th e p r e v i o u s d a y s ’ p r o c e e d i n g s a t th e r e q u e s t o f m e m b e r s i t w a s r e a d 20 o u t f o r t h e r e c o r d a s f o l lo w s v e r b a ti m . ” A n d t h e n it a p p e a r s th a t y o u r e a d t h e w h o l e o f M r M a t ji la ’s e m a i l to y o u . D o y o u r e c a l l th is ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o n w e w i ll n o t g o th r o u g h i t i n t o o m u c h d e t a il b u t w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f Mr M a t ji la ’s c h i e f Page 53 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 c o m p la i n t a t t h a t s ta g e ? M R T S O T S I : O k a y Mr M a t ji la ’s c o m p l a i n t h a s to d o w i th p r in c i p a ll y tw o t h i n g s . T h e fi r s t o n e w a s t h a t h e w a s c o n te n d i n g th a t h e i s a l le g e d t o h a v e c o m m i t t e d a n ir r e g u la r i ty a n d y e t t h e r e i s n o – e s s e n t ia ll y s a y i n g t h e r e is n o e v i d e n c e t o t h a t e ff e c t . A n d t h a t h e is b e i n g a c c u s e d o f h a v i n g c o m m i t t e d s o m e th i n g w h i c h n o b o d y h a s p r o o f t o h a v e t a k e n p l a c e . T h e o t h e r t h i n g th a t h e w a s v e r y c o n c e r n e d w i t h a n d h e li n k e d t h is to th e f ir s t o n e w a s t h a t h e h a d a p p r o a c h e d m e a n d c o m p l a in e d t o m e t h a t i n f a c t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e A R C M s L u t h u l i a n d I r e c a ll h e 10 in d i c a t e d th a t t h e F D a t t h e t i m e a ls o w e r e – h a d s o m e r e l a ti o n s h i p o r c o n ta c t w i t h t h e – a c e r t a i n c o m p a n y w h ic h h e f e l t w a s a n ir r e g u l a r b e c a u s e t h i s c o m p a n y w a s a s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r to E s k o m o r w a s g o i n g t o – o r w a s c o n t e n d in g to b e a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r t o E s k o m a n d th e n h e f e lt t h a t t h e s e i n d iv id u a ls s h o u l d a l s o b e s u b j e c t e d t o a n i n q u ir y in th e s a m e w a y th a t h e is b e in g s u b je c t e d t o a n in q u ir y b e c a u s e th e i r ir r e g u l a r i ty a s h e in d ic a t e d w a s a s m u c h a n ir r e g u la r i ty t h a t s h o u l d b e in v e s t i g a t e d a s h is is b e in g in v e s t i g a t e d . S o t h a t w a s th e e s s e n c e . I h a v e n o t r e a d t h is l e tt e r b u t t h a t is t h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t I r e c a ll h e w a s c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r Ts o ts i y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e F D t h e F in a n c i a l D ir e c to r w h o w a s t h a t a t t h e ti m e / M R T S O T S I : T h a t w a s Ts h o l o f e lo M o l e f e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And were you aware that it was Ms Molefe w h e n s h e w a s s e n t t h e T N A C o n tr a c t s i g n e d b y Mr M a t ji la w h o f ir s t r a i s e d c o n c e r n s a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y b u d g e t a t a ll f o r th a t Page 54 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 c o n tr a c t a n d a l s o i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t a n y c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e e n t e r e d i n t o b y – w i t h T N A w a s g o i n g t o b e o f a m u c h s m a ll e r p r o p o r t io n a n d i t w a s g o i n g t o b e fo r o n e y e a r a n d 1 2 b r e a k fa s ts r a t h e r th a n t h r e e y e a r s a n d I t h in k w h a t e n d e d u p b e in g a b o u t 3 6 b r e a k f a s ts . W e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t a t t h e t i m e ? M R T S O T S I : I w a s a w a r e o f s o m e o f t h e d is c u s s io n th a t s h e r a i s e d o n the Board. raised it. I t h i n k t h e f ir s t is s u e y o u s p o k e o f I r e c a ll t h a t s h e h a d I d o n o t r e c a l l t h e b i t a b o u t t h e c o n tr a c t b e i n g o n e y e a r v e r s u s t h r e e y e a r s . T h a t b it I d o n o t r e m e m b e r b u t t h e fi r s t o n e I d o . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d o n o t n e e d t o g o th e r e w e l o o k e d a t i t w i t h M r C h o e u C h a ir b u t w h e n s h e h a s s e n t t h e c o n tr a c t f r o m M r C h o e u o n t h e 7 M a y 2 0 1 4 h e r r e s p o n s e t o r e c e iv i n g th e s ig n e d c o n tr a c t fo r R 4 3 m il li o n a n d th r e e y e a r s i s – a n d I w i ll ju s t r e a d it i n t o t h e r e c o r d . S h e a d d r e s s e s i t t o C h o s e – Mr C h o e u ’s f ir s t n a m e . “ I t h o u g h t y o u s a id th e c o n tr a c t w a s fo r a tw e lv e m o n th p e r i o d f o r t w e l v e b r i e fi n g s o n ly a n d to b e a l ig n e d w i t h E s k o m ’s s p o n s o r s h ip f r a m e w o r k a n d s tr a t e g y. I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h e c o n tr a c t v a l u e is n o w R 4 3 .2 m i ll i o n . To m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e to t a l 20 s p o n s o r s h i p b u d g e t w a s a r o u n d R 3 0 m i l li o n . Any u n b u d g e te d e x p e n d i t u r e m u s t g e t a p p r o v a l fr o m I F C . ” S o is y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f t h o s e c o m p la in t s th a t s h e h a d m a d e a t th e ti m e ? MR TSOTSI: No. I would not have been. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But certainly there had been a whole Page 55 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t w a s g o in g t o u n f o l d a n d h a d b e e n c o m p l e te d b y t h e s t a g e o f th is m e e t in g . A n d S N G w h a t d o y o u r e c a ll S N G c o n c l u d e d a b o u t w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a n ir r e g u l a r i t y i n t h e p r o c e s s ? MR TSOTSI: came to. I r e c a l l t w o s h a ll I s a y p r i n c i p le c o n c lu s i o n s t h a t S N G O n e w a s t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e w a s i n d e e d a n ir r e g u l a r i ty t h a t h a d o c c u r r e d a t t h e i n s t a n c e o f M r M a tji l a b y a s s u m i n g th a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s – f e l l u n d e r t h e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty o f – w h a t h e c a ll e d in v e s t m e n t a s a g a i n s t s p o n s o r s h i p . A n d h e n c e h e d i d n o t f o l lo w th e – t h e g u id e li n e s t h a t w e r e s e t o u t f o r a c o n tr a c t t h a t f e l l u n d e r 10 s p o n s o r s h i p . T h e o t h e r c o n c lu s i o n t h a t I r e c a l l is th a t t h e c o n tr a c t o r r a th e r th e t e r m i n a t i o n c la u s e i n t h e c o n tr a c t h a d b e e n r e m o v e d . A g a i n a t th e in s ta n c e o f I d o n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r i t w a s b o t h M r M a t ji la a n d Mr C h e o u o r a t t h e i n s t a n c e o f M r C h o e u b u t th a t w a s o n e o f th e c o n c l u s i o n s t h a t s h e c a m e t o . I w o u ld h a v e t o r e a d th e c o n c l u s i o n s to r e fr e s h m y s e l f f u r t h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l c a n I s a y y o u r m e m o r y is v e r y g o o d M r Ts o t s i b e c a u s e t h a t a s w e h a v e i t a n d w e p r o b a b l y r e a d i t m o r e r e c e n tly a r e p r e c is e ly t h e c o n c l u s io n s t h a t S N G d r a w. Subject to one or two r e v is i o n s . D o y o u r e c a ll t h e m h a v in g c o n c lu d e d t h a t – t h a t d e c is i o n to 20 r e m o v e th e te r m i n a ti o n c l a u s e w a s a g a i n s t t h e a d v ic e o f t h e l e g a l department in Eskom? M R T S O T S I : Ye s th a t d i d c o m e t h r o u g h i n th e B o a r d m e e t in g . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e fi r s t p o i n t th e ir r e g u l a r it y. J u s t t o a s s i s t y o u in ti m e Mr M a tj il a ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a b o u t i t b e i n g a n in v e s t m e n t a n d n o t s p o n s o r s h ip I a m g o in g t o a s k y o u a b o u t w h e n Page 56 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 p r e c i s e ly w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h e m b u t t h e y o n o u r b e s t u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e c h r o n o lo g y a c t u a l ly c a m e a f te r t h e S N G r e p o r t w a s f i n a li s e d . S o that view that was taken about investment and sponsorship is s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o m e s u p la t e r i n t h e L e d w a b a M a z w a i o p i n io n a n d t h e r e v ie w t h a t t h e l e g a l fir m w a s a s k e d to d o a t t h e n e x t B o a r d m e e t in g . I w i ll ta k e y o u t o i t. B u t j u s t to b e c le a r S N G a c c o r d i n g t o t h e r e p o r t a n d y o u r g o o d r e c o l le c t i o n o f i t c o n c lu d e d h e d id n o t f a ll w i t h i n t h e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty M r M a tj il a w h e n h e c o n c l u d e d th e c o n t r a c t a n d s e c o n d ly t h a t h e a n d o r M r C h o e u w e r e r e s p o n s ib le fo r r e m o v i n g a 10 t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e i n th e c o n tr a c t a g a i n s t t h e a d v i c e o f th e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t. D o e s t h a t s q u a r e w it h y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n Mr Ts o ts i i f y o u g o o n in t h e M i n u te s o f th is m e e t in g y o u s p e n t ti m e , y o u r e a d o u t M r M a t ji l a ’s e n t ir e e m a il a n d t h e n a s w e u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e r e m a i n d e r w a s r e a l ly a b o u t w h a t r e c o r d i n g w a s g o i n g t o m a d e i n t h e i n te r i m f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts a r o u n d th is i s s u e . D o y o u r e c a ll th a t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d i f w e g o f i n a ll y t o t h e e n d i t c o n c lu d e s t h a t w h a t t h e B o a r d i s g o in g t o d o a n d w h a t t h e i n te r i m f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts w i ll r e f le c t i s th a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a r e v i e w, t h e B o a r d is c o n s i d e r in g t h e r e v ie w a n d i s lo o k in g a t i m p l e m e n ti n g c o r r e c t iv e a c ti o n . D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e s a w i n M r P a m e n s k y ’s e v i d e n c e C h a ir Page 57 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h a t i s p r e c is e ly w h a t w a s t h e n r e fl e c t e d in t h e i n te r i m f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts . A l s o is s u e d it s e e m s o n t h e s a m e d a y a s t h a t m e e t i n g t h e 24 November 2014. S o n o w i f w e c a n m o v e t o t h e n e x t m e e t in g a n d t h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h e 3 D e c e m b e r a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h o s e mi n u te s a t 3 4 3 in t h e s a m e b u n d l e E x h i b i t M M 6 – s o r r y M M 3 . CHAIRPERSON: What is the page again? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 4 3 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 343? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i d i d y o u a t t e n d t h i s m e e ti n g o n t h e 3 December 2014? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 3 4 4 y o u w i ll s e e th e r e u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 7 w h ic h is h e a d e d T N A S p o n s o r s h i p L e g a l R e p o r t . Th e r e is a r e p o r t to t h e B o a r d t h a t t h e C h a ir m a n a n d th e C h a ir m a n o f th e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t te e h a d m e t w i th L e d w a b a M a z w a i t o g iv e t h e m a b r i e f f o r th e i r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . Te l l u s a b o u t t h a t? W h a t – w h a t w a s g o i n g o n n o w b y a b o u t th e 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 ? 20 MR TSOTSI: O k a y o n e o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th a t c a m e fr o m t h e S N G R e p o r t w a s t h a t Es k o m w il l b e w e ll a d v is e d to s e e k le g a l o p i n i o n a s to h o w t o p r o c e e d w i t h th e i n fr a c ti o n o c c a s i o n e d b y o r a t l e a s t a l le g e d in fr a c t io n o c c a s i o n e d b y t h e t w o g e n tl e m e n Mr C h o e u a n d M r M a t jil a . I n o t h e r w o r d s w h a t d is c ip li n a r y s t e p s c a n b e t a k e n a n d w h a t p o s i ti o n t h e c o m p a n y c a n ta k e in t h a t r e g a r d . A n d t h e n w e a s a b o a r d Page 58 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h e n d e c i d e d l e t u s c o m m i s s i o n a la w fi r m w h ic h w o u l d l o o k a t t h i s a n d w e – I t h i n k w e e x t e n d e d th e b r i e f o f t h e la w fir m r e a ll y to lo o k a t n o t ju s t th a t m a tt e r b u t a fe w o t h e r m a t t e r s a n d I w o u l d h a v e t o – to lo o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t t o s e e w h a t e ls e w e a s k e d t h e m t o lo o k a t . B u t w e d i d a s k t h e m t o l o o k a t o n e o r t w o th i n g s b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e w e r e b e g in n i n g t o g e t c o n c e r n e d a b o u t a f e w t h i n g s t h a t w e r e a s a f a l lo u t e s s e n ti a l ly o f t h e w h o l e r e p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d i f w e g o t o p a g e 3 4 4 y o u w il l s e e th a t M r M a z w a i s t a r ts a r e p o r t b a c k a t l e a s t t h e m i n u t e s r e f l e c t t h a t h e 10 r e p o r t e d to t h e B o a r d a n d t h a t i s th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g T N A S p o n s o r s h ip L e g a l R e p o r t . It records that Mr Mazwai r e p o r t e d t h a t a fo r e n s ic r e v i e w h a d b e e n u n d e r t a k e n a r o u n d t h e c o n tr a c t. H e h a d r e c e iv e d t h e p r e l i m i n a r y f i n d in g s a n d h a d b e e n r e q u e s t e d to p r o v i d e a le g a l o p i n io n a n d w h a t a c ti o n s h o u l d b e u n d e r t a k e n a g a in s t Mr M a t ji la a n d M r C h o e u w h o h a d fa c i li t a te d th e c o n tr a c t. A n d i t g o e s o n a n d r e c o r d s t h a t M r M a z w a i r e p o r te d t h a t b e c a u s e M r M a t ji la w a s n o l o n g e r t h e a c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u tiv e th is m e a n t t h a t h e w a s n o l o n g e r a n e m p l o y e e o f Es k o m . P r io r t o h is a p p o i n t m e n t a s a c ti n g C h i e f E x e c u ti v e M r M a t ji la h a d b e e n a n o n - e x e c u ti v e m e m b e r 20 o f t h e B o a r d . A n d t h e n h e r e c o r d s th e r e t h a t Mr C h o e u s ti ll r e m a i n e d a n e m p l o y e e o f Es k o m . D o e s t h a t c o r r e c tl y r e fl e c t th e fa c t s a t t h e ti m e ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 3 - 4 - 5 . I w o u l d lik e t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n to t h e th ir d p a r a g r a p h fr o m Page 59 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h e b o t t o m . I t is r e c o r d e d t h e r e t h a t : “ T h e d e c i s i o n a r o u n d w h e t h e r t h e c o n tr a c t c o u ld b e regarded as an irregular expense depended on the v ie w o f t h e c o n tr a c t . ” And it is recorded there that: “ I f t h e c o n tr a c t w a s r a t if i e d t h e n th e r e w o u l d b e n o ir r e g u l a r i ty. ” A n d i t g o e s o n t o r e c o r d t h a t: “ I t w a s s u m m a r is e d t h a t th e c o m p l a i n t w a s t h a t 10 M r M a tji l a e x c e e d e d h i s a u t h o r i ty to a p p r o v e a n d s ig n th e TN A C o n tr a c t a n d t h a t M r C h o e u r e m o v e d t h e te r mi n a ti o n c l a u s e a g a i n s t l e g a l a d v ic e . It a p p e a r e d th a t M r M a t ji l a w a s n o t a w a r e th a t th e t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e h a d b e e n r e m o v e d . ” D o - d o y o u r e c a ll a n y d is c u s s i o n a b o u t t h a t o r w h e r e th a t s t a te m e n t c a m e fr o m t h a t M r M a t ji l a w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t th e t e r m i n a t io n c la u s e h a d b e e n r e m o v e d ? M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly r e c a l l w h o s a id t h i s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 20 M R T S O T S I : B u t I d o r e c a ll t h a t i t w a s m e n ti o n e d . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Yo u s e e t h e c h a l le n g e I - I h a v e w i th th a t is in t h e e v id e n c e o f M r C h o e u w e w e r e a b l e to t r a c k d o w n t h e e m a il c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n Mr C h o e u a n d Mr M a tj il a a r o u n d th e f in a l s t a g e s o f th e c o n tr a c t b e i n g c o n c l u d e d a n d - a n d th is w a s a ls o c o n fir m e d i n M r C h o e u ’s e v i d e n c e . Page 60 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M r C h o e u i n f a c t a l e r te d Mr M a t ji la t o t h e v e r y fa c t t h a t th is t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e h a d b e e n r e m o v e d a n d h e d id s o o n 2 M a y 2 0 1 4 p r i o r t o t h e c o n t r a c t f in a l ly b e i n g c o n c l u d e d . W a s th a t b r o u g h t t o y o u r a tt e n ti o n a t th e ti m e ? M R T S O T S I : N o . W e w o u ld n o t h a v e k n o w n a b o u t th a t a t a l l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . I t w o u l d b e s o m e w h a t c o n c e r n in g to b e p r o c e e d in g o n th e b a s is t h a t M r M a t ji l a h a d n o k n o w l e d g e th a t th e t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e h a d b e e n r e m o v e d . I f t h e f a c ts w h e r e t h a t i t w a s d r a w n d ir e c t ly to h i s a t te n ti o n . W o u ld i t n o t? 10 M R T S O T S I : U n d e r th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s I w o u l d t h i n k s o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . C h a ir, I d o n o t s u g g e s t w e g o t h e r e . It has been dealt with in the evidenced … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h a t Mr C h o e u d i d o n 2 M a y 2 0 1 4 is s e n d d ir e c t ly t o M r M a tj il a c o p i e d t o Mr N d o u c o p i e s o f t h e s i g n e d c o n tr a c t t h a t h e h a d r e c e i v e d fr o m T N A a n d h e s a y s : “ A t t a c h e d a r e t w o c o p i e s o f th e c o n tr a c t v e r s i o n 20 s ig n e d b y T N A . I h a d f in a l d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h t h e m o n W e d n e s d a y. We have reached agreement on a l m o s t a l l c l a u s e s , b u t s ti ll i n d is p u t e is t h e c l a u s e r e g a r d in g te r m in a ti o n . The TNA does not want Eskom to include the following clause.” T h a t w a s a l w a y s g o i n g t o b e t h e c la u s e th a t w o u l d g i v e E s k o m a t i ts e l e c t io n a r i g h t t o t e r m i n a t e o n 3 0 d a y s ’ n o ti c e a n d C h a ir y o u w i ll r e c a ll w e r e c e i v e d e v id e n c e fr o m M r P r e t o r iu s a n d M r C h o e u Page 61 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h a t t h o s e s o r ts o f t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e s in c o n tr a c ts o f t h is n a t u r e w e r e s t a n d a r d a t t h e ti m e , b e c a u s e o f Es k o m ’s p r e c a r i o u s fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n . E s k o m - y o u - w a s i n a f in a n c i a l s ta t e o f g r e a t in s t a b i li ty. that you T h e i n t e r i m f i n a n c ia l r e s u lt s M r Ts o ts i in d ic a t e d had r e c e iv e d 20 b i ll i o n at that stage fr o m G o v e r n m e n t . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . 2 3 b il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 23. E v e r y ti m e I s a y 2 0 . M r P a m e n s k y a ls o c o r r e c t e d m e o n th a t . T h o s e o f y o u w h o w e r e i n t h e d a y … 10 M R T S O T S I : I t is a l o t o f m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a lo t o f m o n e y. I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: I think so. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th is C o m m i s s i o n th r e e b i ll io n b e c o m e s p a r t o f w h a t e v e r y o n e is … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is - i t i s p e r m is s i b l e to h a v e a s p i r a t io n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I t is . S o it w a s a 2 3 b i lli o n a n d - a n d c e r t a i n l y th e - w o u l d y o u d is p u t e th e e v id e n c e o f M r Pr e t o r i u s ? H e s a i d y o u n e e d a te r m in a ti o n c la u s e li k e t h is in a c o n tr a c t , b e c a u s e y o u a r e 20 c o m m i t t in g R 4 3 m i ll io n o f E s k o m ’s b u d g e t t o s p o n s o r s h i p a n d th e ti d e s m a y c h a n g e a n d i t m ig h t n o t b e v i a b l e fo r E s k o m to c o n ti n u e t o c o m m i t t h a t a m o u n t o f m o n e y to a n ic e t o h a v e l i k e s p o n s o r s h i p i n a s t a te o f fi n a n c i a l d i ff ic u l ty. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I c e r t a i n l y w o u l d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n i f w e c a n j u s t g o b a c k t o 3 - 4 - 5 w h e r e w e Page 62 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w e r e i n B u n d le M M 3 , b e c a u s e I w a n t to p ic k i t u p i n th a t s e c o n d la s t paragraph. W e h a v e d e a l t w i th th e p o in t a b o u t M r M a tj il a n o t b e i n g a w a r e t h a t t h e t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e h a d b e e n r e m o v e d , b u t t h e n th e l a s t s e n te n c e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h s a y s : “It was agreed th a t it was not the B o a r d ’s r e s p o n s i b i li ty to ta k e a c ti o n a g a in s t M r C h o e u a s h e d i d n o t r e p o r t t o th e B o a r d a n d w a s a n e m p l o y e e o f Eskom.” Do you see that? 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll a d is c u s s i o n a r o u n d th a t i s s u e ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d - a n d w h a t w a s t h e n a tu r e o f th e d is c u s s io n ? M R T S O T S I : E s s e n t i a ll y w h a t - w h a t w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e r e w a s d o n o t f o r g e t t h e - t h e l a w y e r s w e r e p r e s e n t a t th is m e e ti n g . I f I r e c a ll w e ll . I f I ju s t lo o k a t t h e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s i n d e e d c o r r e c t . Ye s . M R T S O T S I : I s th a t c o r r e c t ? Ye s . S o t h e y h a d t h e n c o m e u p w i t h a 20 s h a l l I s a y - p o s i t io n w h i c h s i m p l y s t a te d t h a t u n d e r t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s we would have to look to see what action - what recourse we can take t o - in t e r m s o f d is c i p l i n i n g t h e i n d i v i d u a ls w h o a ll e g e d l y w e r e i n v o lv e d here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . MR TSOTSI: N o w in t h e d i s c u s s io n t h e B o a r d f e l t t h a t t h e - a lt h o u g h Page 63 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h e a c c o u n t a b i li ty r e s t e d w i t h t h e B o a r d - t h e r e s p o n s i b ili t y f o r t h e a c ti o n s th a t n e e d e d t o b e t a k e n a g a i n s t a n e m p l o y e e o f t h e c o m p a n y w o u ld b e t h a t o f t h e C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e a n d M a n a g e m e n t . T h a t is w h e r e t h is c o m e s f r o m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. Hm. M r Ts o ts i, w a s it a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d o f E s k o m t o f a m il i a r i s e t h e m s e lv e s w it h t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f th e P u b l ic Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t? M R T S O T S I : W h a t d o y o u m e a n w h a t a r e t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l w e r e th e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d o f Es k o m 10 r e q u ir e d t o k n o w w h a t th e i r r e s p o n s ib il it i e s w e r e u n d e r th a t Ac t ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s C h a ir. T h e r e a s o n I a m s a y i n g w h a t I a m s a y i n g is p r e c i s e ly b e c a u s e o f t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e PFMA. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: T h a t t h e a c c o u n t a b i li t ie s r e s t w it h u s t o e n s u r e t h a t a c ti o n s th a t n e e d t o b e ta k e n a g a in s t a n y e m p l o y e e o f th e o r g a n i s a t io n r e s ts w i th th e B o a r d , b u t t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty t o c a r r y o u t t h o s e a c t i o n s is d e l e g a t e d t o M a n a g e m e n t. I t d o e s n o t a b s o lv e t h e B o a r d fr o m n o t o v e r s e e i n g t h a t t h o s e a c ti o n s ta k e p l a c e , b u t t h a t t h e - th e a c tu a l 20 r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r c a r r y i n g o u t t h o s e a c ti o n s r e s ts w it h M a n a g e m e n t . T h a t is th e u n d e r s t a n d in g w e h a v e o f th e P F M A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o - ju s t s o t h a t I - I c a n p r o b e th e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f i t f u r th e r. D id th e B o a r d u n d e r s t a n d t h a t it w a s a s t h e a c c o u n t in g a u t h o r i ty o f Es k o m u l ti m a t e ly r e s p o n s i b l e f o r e n s u r i n g th a t d is c i p l i n a r y s t e p s w e r e t a k e n a g a in s t a n e m p l o y e e w h o b r e a c h e d th e Page 64 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 P F M A o r e n g a g e d i n ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i tu r e ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . Th e B o a r d is - w a s q u it e a w a r e o f th a t . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a s t h e m a t t e r o f e x e c u t io n y o u w o u l d h a n d it o v e r to M a n a g e m e n t . To th e C h i e f E x e c u tiv e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e t h a t i s n o t a s I r e a d w h a t is r e c o r d e d h e r e a n d t h a t i s w h y I w a n t e d t o p r o b e i t w i th y o u . Yo u s e e w h a t is r e c o r d e d h e r e is : “It 10 was agreed th a t it was not the B o a r d ’s r e s p o n s i b i li ty to ta k e a c ti o n a g a in s t M r C h o e u a s h e d i d n o t r e p o r t t o th e B o a r d a n d w a s a n e m p l o y e e o f Eskom.” D o y o u s e e h o w t h a t a t le a s t t o m e , b u t y o u a r e g o in g t o g i v e u s th e b e n e f i t o f th e d is c u s s i o n a n d h a v i n g b e e n th e r e . I t s e e m s to s u g g e s t th a t i t is n o t t h e B o a r d ’s r e s p o n s i b i li ty. D o y o u a g r e e w i th m e t h a t th a t a p p e a r s to b e c o n v e y in g t h a t ? M R T S O T S I : W e ll s in c e I w a s a t th e m e e ti n g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : I - I w o u ld n o t - p e r h a p s t h is m a y c o n v e y t h a t t o s o m e o n e 20 w h o is r e a d in g i t , b u t c e r t a i n l y th a t w a s n o t w h a t th e - th e in t e n t w a s i n t h e d i s c u s s io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s v e r y h e lp f u l. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k w e w il l s to p t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 65 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: No. T h a t is a lr ig h t . W e a r e g o in g to t a k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t n o w. I a m t h i n k in g t h a t if a t a l l p o s s ib le m a y b e w e s h o u l d n o t s a y w e w i ll - w e s h o u l d n o t s a y w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o . W e s h o u l d s e e i f w e c o u l d r e s u m e a li t t le e a r li e r t h a n n o r m a l r e s u m p ti o n ti m e a f t e r lu n c h . I a m t h in k i n g a b o u t e it h e r h a lf p a s t o n e o r q u a r te r t o t w o . E i th e r w o u ld b e f i n e w i t h y o u ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b s o l u t e ly C h a i r fr o m o u r s i d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Ts o ts i. 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : E it h e r w o u l d b e f in e w i t h y o u ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Q u a r te r t o . I h a v e h a d a r e q u e s t C h a ir j u s t fr o m t h e la w y e r s o f Mr Ts o ts i t h a t i t b e q u a r t e r to t w o i f p o s s i b l e . CHAIRPERSON: O h . O k a y. A lr ig h t . A lr ig h t . L e t u s r e s u m e t h e n a t q u a r t e r to t w o . W e a d j o u r n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . 20 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, l e t’s c o n t in u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Ts o t s i j u s t b e f o r e t h e b r e a k w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e q u e s t io n o f d i s c i p li n a r y s te p s t a k e n a g a in s t a n e m p l o y e e a n d y o u h a d c l a r i f i e d fo r m e w h a t h a d a c tu a l ly Page 66 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 b e e n d i s c u s s e d a t t h e m e e ti n g o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r, a n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e w h a t’s r e c o r d e d o n p a g e 3 4 5 is n o t a c c u r a t e in s o f a r a s it s u g g e s t s t h a t t h e B o a r d t h o u g h t i t w a s n ’ t i ts r e s p o n s i b ili t y t o e n s u r e t h a t d is c i p l i n a r y a c t i o n w a s ta k e n a g a i n s t M r C h o e u i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR TSOTSI: I n s o f a r a s t h e B o a r d u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty la y w i th m a n a g e m e n t b u t t h e a c c o u n ta b il it y f o r t h o s e a c t io n s r e s t s w i th the Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d o n th a t p o in t i f I c o u ld a s k y o u j u s t t o o p e n u p t h e l e g is la t io n B u n d le , M r Ts o t s i i t ’s b e e n p la c e d o n t h e t o p 10 o f t h e b o x t h e r e , it ’s a l e g is la t io n B u n d le E x h i b i t M M le g is l a ti o n s y o u ’l l s e e i t a t th e t o p . Th a n k y o u a n d I’ d lik e t o j u s t g o to s e c t i o n 5 1 o f t h e P F M A w h i c h is t h e s t a tu t e c o n ta i n e d in t h e fi le . Yo u ’ll f i n d i t a t p a g e 2 3 , Mr Ts o t s i w e h a d e v i d e n c e fr o m M r P a m e n s k y p r e v io u s ly t h a t h e t h o u g h t m e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d o f S t a t e o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s o n ly h a d t o c o m e t o l e a r n a b o u t th e i r o b l ig a ti o n s u n d e r th e P F M A o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f th e ir a p p o i n t m e n t, I t h in k h e s a i d t w o o r t h e y e a r s i n , y o u s h o u ld k n o w w h a t t h e P F M A r e q u ir e s o f y o u , d o y o u h o l d t h a t v i e w a s w e l l ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir m y v i e w is t h a t w h e n y o u a r e in d u c t e d , w h ic h is n o r m a l ly w h a t h a p p e n s a n d g iv e n a l l t h e r e le v a n t d o c u m e n t s w h ic h 20 y o u ’r e s u p p o s e d t o a c q u a i n t y o u r s e l f w i t h , y o u d o th e b e s t y o u c a n t o a c q u a in t y o u r s e l f w i t h th o s e d o c u m e n ts fr o m d a y o n e b u t w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is t h a t y o u c o n ti n u e t o r e ly o n t h e a v a il a b il i ty o f t h e e x p e r ts in t h e c o m p a n y i n th o s e s p e c i f ic a r e a s t h a t y o u n e e d a d v i c e o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: Indeed. C l e a r l y y o u c a n – I c a n r e a d t h is P F M A f o r t h e n e x t fi v e Page 67 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 y e a r s b u t I c a n g u a r a n t e e I w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o q u o te fr o m t h e P F M A v e r b a t i m fr o m p a g e o n e t o t h e e n d o f i t b e c a u s e i t’s n o t i n my a r e a o f e x p e r t is e b u t th e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g is , b e a w a r e o f w h a t y o u r o b l ig a ti o n is a s a D ir e c t o r a n d s e c o n d ly w h e r e y o u n e e d to a c q u a in t y o u r s e l f w it h t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t is p e r t in e n t t o y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty. Yo u e n s u r e th a t y o u h a v e t h e c o v e r o f t h e e x p e r t s in th e o r g a n is a ti o n , w h a t e v e r y o u e n c o u n te r e d a n d r e q u ir e d t o m a k e a j u d g e m e n t o n is s u e s t h a t p e r ta i n t o , in t h i s i n s ta n c e , th e P F M A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Th a n k y o u , I d o n ’ t t h i n k a n y o f u s w h o e v e n r e g a r d o u r s e lv e s a s l a w y e r s c o u ld q u o t e , v e r b a ti m , t h e P F M A s o a t le a s t w e ’ r e a g r e e d o n t h a t . M r Ts o ts i if w e lo o k a t p a g e 2 3 S e c t i o n 5 1 o f t h e P F M A y o u ’ ll s e e a t th e b o t t o m th e r e a n d t h e o n e t h a t ’s r e l e v a n t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s is S e c ti o n 5 1 . 1 a n d t h e n y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t o E b u t l e t ’s ju s t r e a d i t fr o m 2 1 , “ A n a c c o u n t in g a u t h o r i ty fo r a p u b l ic e n ti t y a n d th e n i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e to s u b - p a r a g r a p h E , m u s t ta k e e ff e c ti v e a n d a p p r o p r i a t e d is c i p l in a r y s t e p s a g a i n s t a n y e m p lo y e e o f th e p u b lic e n ti t y w h o a n d t h e n it l is ts o n e o f t h r e e t h in g s , t w o a r e r e l e v a n t fo r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s . A n e m p l o y e e w h o c o n tr a v e n e s 20 o f f a i ls to c o m p ly w i th t h e p r o v i s i o n o f th is Ac t o r a n e m p l o y e e I I I w h o m a k e s o r p e r m it s a n ir r e g u l a r e x p e n d i tu r e o r fr u i tl e s s a n d w a s t e fu l e x p e n d i t u r e is o n e o f th e e m p l o y e e s a g a in s t w h o a p p r o p r i a t e d is c ip li n a r y s t e p s m u s t b e ta k e n ” , D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t to b e t h e B o a r d ’s r e s p o n s i b i li t y a t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e d e b a ti n g t h i s R 4 3 m il li o n c o n tr a c t ? Page 68 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . N o w i f w e g o b a c k in t o th e f il e c o n ta in i n g M r P a m e n s k y ’s e v id e n c e a n d y o u ’l l fi n d t h a t i n E x h ib i t N M 3 w e w e r e i n t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g o f th e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r a n d I’ d li k e t o t a k e y o u f u r th e r o n i n th a t t o p a g e 3 4 7 – a p o lo g i e s le t ’s g o b a c k t o 3 4 6 f ir s t i f w e m a y. MR TSOTSI: 346? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , y o u ’l l s e e m id w a y d o w n th e p a g e j u s t a ft e r th e m i d li n e t h e r e ’s a r e fe r e n c e t o a r e c o r d a l o f s o m e th i n g y o u h a d 10 r e q u e s t e d , i t s a y s th e r e , “ T h e C h a ir m a n h a d r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h i s b e d o n e ” , T h i s w a s a r e q u e s t t o t h e l a w y e r s t h a t t h e y i n te r p r e t a n d p r o v i d e g u i d a n c e to th e B o a r d a b o u t i r r e g u l a r e x p e n d i tu r e a s c o m p a r e d w i t h f r u i tl e s s a n d w a s te f u l e x p e n d i t u r e a n d i t ’s r e c o r d e d t h e r e t h a t y o u r e q u e s t e d th a t t h is b e d o n e i n o r d e r t o a ll o w m e m b e r s t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e is s u e s a n d g iv e d ir e c t io n t o t h e a c t io n o f t h e B o a r d w o u ld w a n t t o t a k e a n d t h e n it s a y s , “ I t w a s n o t e d t h a t i f t h e B o a r d o r E x c o o r t h e C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e w e r e o f th e o p in i o n t h a t t h is w a s a b a d c o n t r a c t , n o t m u c h c o u l d b e d o n e a g a i n s t M r M a j il a a s h e w a s n o t a n e m p lo y e e o f 20 Eskom”, Can you tell us a bit about that, where did that conclusion c o m e fr o m w i t h , w a s t h e r e a d e b a t e a b o u t it ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s C h a i r th e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n i n t h e – y o u r e c a l l th a t w e h a d t h e l a w y e r s [i n d i s t i n c t ] w it h u s t o c o m e a n d b r i e f t h e B o a r d o n Page 69 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w h a t i t h a d e s ta b l is h e d w h e n w e a s k e d t h e m t o d o a r e v i e w o f t h e S N G r e p o r t a n d i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e ir d i s c u s s i o n w i th u s t h e i s s u e o f w h a t to d o w it h M r M a j il a a n d M r C h o e u c a m e u p , b e c a u s e i t w a s o n e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to a d d r e s s a n d i n t h a t t h e ir v ie w w a s t h a t b e c a u s e M r M a jil a h a d le f t t h e b u s in e s s , t h e n p u r s u i n g h i m w o u l d b e , to q u o t e , if I r e m e m b e r w h a t th e y s a i d , a n a c a d e m ic e x e r c is e . S o that to me then, meant to say that it would not be worthwhile for us to a tt e m p t t o d i s c i p li n e h i m b e c a u s e h e w a s n o l o n g e r p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f t h e o r g a n is a t i o n . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll a t t h i s s ta g e h e w a s n ’t a n e m p l o y e e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e f a c t , r e m e m b e r w e ’r e o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r b u t h e h a d r e v e r t e d t o t h e p o s i ti o n a s n o n - e x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: Correct yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t’s w h y, a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t y o u ’r e t a lk in g a n d t h i s c e r ta i n ly c o m e s o u t i n t h e l a t e r o p i n i o n o f L e d w a b a M a z w a i , t h e y w e r e s a y i n g i n s o f a r a s h e ’s n o t a n e m p lo y e e a n y m o r e , t h e r e a r e n ’t d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s e s th a t c a n b e t a k e n a g a i n s t h i m b u t in s o f a r a s h e r e m a in e d a n o n - E x e c u tiv e m e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d , w a s t h e r e a n y d is c u s s i o n a b o u t th a t ? 20 MR TSOTSI: T h e d is c u s s i o n o n ly li m i t e d i ts e l f o b s e r v a ti o n t h a t b e c a u s e h e ’s a B o a r d m e m b e r t h e m a t t e r w i ll h a v e t o b e d e a l t w i t h b y h e S h a r e h o l d e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: Indeed. S o th a t w a s t h e e x t e n t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w w o u l d t h e S h a r e h o ld e r b e a l e r t e d t o t h e Page 70 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 is s u e s a r o u n d M r M a j il a ? MR TSOTSI: T h e S h a r e h o l d e r w o u l d o r d i n a r i ly b e w r i t t e n to , t o i n f o r m t h e S h a r e h o l d e r w h a t h a s tr a n s p ir e d a n d w h a t , i n f a c t , w a s b e in g a l le g e d in t e r m s o f t h e tr a n s g r e s s io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: W h y w a s th a t n o t d o n e ? W e l l th e r e a s o n it w a s n o t d o n e w a s , fr o m w h a t I s a i d e a r l ie r, t h a t M r M a ji la h a d n o w r e s i g n e d fr o m t h e c o m p a n y s o i t w a s n o t f e a s i b l e fo r u s t o – in t h e c o n te x t o f Es k o m to d e a l w i th t h a t m a t t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 D i d y o u n o t r e g a r d i t a s t il l n e c e s s a r y t o a l e r t t h e S h a r e h o ld e r t o f in a n c ia l m is c o n d u c t o n h is p a r t? MR TSOTSI: T h e S h a r e h o l d e r w a s a w a r e o f t h e m a t t e r, i f y o u r e c a l l , I h a d , to t h e b e s t o f m y r e c o ll e c t i o n C h a ir, w h e n th e fir s t t i m e t h e A u d i t a n d R i s k C o m m i t te e r e p o r t e d th is m a t t e r t o t h e B o a r d o r o n e o f t h o s e e a r l ie r p e r i o d s , I h a d t o g o a n d s e e th e M i n is t e r a n d in f o r m th e M i n is te r o f w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d . O n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I n e e d e d t o d o t h is was that it was important that the Shareholder become aware of what h a d tr a n s p ir e d b e fo r e t h i s m a t t e r w e n t o u t t o t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n b e c a u s e c l e a r ly it w a s g o i n g t o b e o u t i n t h e p u b li c d o m a in s o o n e r t h a n la t e r. 20 S o w e t o o k t h e v i e w t h a t w e w il l n o t w a n t t h e S h a r e h o ld e r t o h e a r a b o u t t h i s i n t h e p u b l ic m e d ia , s o th a t’s th e n t h e r e a s o n w h y w e w e n t o u t , a n d I s p e c i f ic a ll y w e n t a n d i n f o r m e d t h e s h a r e h o l d e r o f t h i s . S o th e S h a r e h o ld e r w a s a w a r e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: W a s th a t d o n e i n f o r m a lly ? By in f o r m a ll y y o u m e a n h o w ? CHAIRPERSON: N o t in w r i ti n g . Page 71 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: O h I d o n ’ t r e c a ll t h a t w e w r o t e a l e t te r, I d o r e c a l l s p e c i f ic a l ly th a t I’ d g o n e t o s e e t h e M i n i s t e r a n d s a t d o w n w i t h h e r a n d s p o k e t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e D G a n d r e p o r t e d t h is is s u e t o t h e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e th e r e a s o n w h y I a s k , a n d w e ’r e n o t t h e r e y e t b u t in t h e 8 t h D e c e m b e r m e e t i n g , w h i c h is f iv e d a y s l a te r t h a n t h e o n e y o u ’r e in n o w, i t ’s r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e a t t o r n e y s a d v i s i n g E s k o m m a d e a n o t e o f th e fa c t t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s r e q u ir e d , u n d e r t h e t r e a s u r y r e g u la t io n s to n o t if y a N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y t h e M in is t e r a n d th e A u d it o r G e n e r a l a b o u t M r M a ji la ’s c o n d u c t a n d t h e r e ’s n o r e c o r d a l th a t 10 any p o i n t w a s m a d e t h e n th a t , t h a t h a d t a k e n p l a c e a lr e a d y, c a n y o u a s s is t us on that? MR TSOTSI: I d o n ’ t r e c a ll , I m u s t s a y, w h e t h e r i n f a c t th e r e w a s a – s u b s e q u e n t to th a t m e e t in g , w h e t h e r t h e Mi n is te r w a s w r i tt e n t o a n d in f o r m e d t h a t t h is h a d o c c u r r e d , I d o n ’ t r e c a l l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n ly o u r r e c o r d s d o n ’t s h o w t h a t , t h a t w a s f o l l o w e d u p , w h e n w e g e t t o t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r m e e ti n g I ’l l a s k y o u , a m o n g s t o t h e r t h in g s , w h y t h a t w a s n ’ t d o n e b u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e n o w, a t s o m e p o i n t , e v e n p r i o r t o th e 3 D e c e m b e r m e e ti n g o f t h e B o a r d y o u h a d , y o u r s e l f a l e r te d t h e s h a r e h o l d e r to t h e 20 f a c t o f M r M a j il a ’s a ll e g e d in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e ir r e g u la r c o n tr a c t , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR TSOTSI: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: A n d w h e n in ti m e w o u l d th a t h a v e b e e n ? T h a t , I t h in k , w o u l d h a v e b e e n a f e w d a y s b e f o r e t h e m e e ti n g – B o a r d m e e t in g o f t h e 2 4 t h . Page 72 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: R i g h t s o b a c k in N o v e m b e r ? In N o v e m b e r y e s , 2 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, th a n k y o u . L e t ’s g o o v e r t h e p a g e to 3 4 7 th e n , n o w w h a t o c c u r s i n t h e s e c o n d h a l f o f th a t p a g e is a s o r t o f s u m m a r y a s I r e a d th e s e m i n u t e s o f w h a t w a s a g r e e d a n d w h a t ’s r e fl e c t e d t h e r e i s , i t w a s a g r e e d t h a t t h e m a t t e r w o u ld b e fi n a l is e d a t a m e e ti n g t o b e h e l d o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . U n ti l t h is p o i n t in th e m i n u t e s Mr Ts o ts i t h e r e ’s c o n v e r s a ti o n a m o n g s t t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s b e c a u s e o f c o u r s e t h e y ’r e f a c i n g t h e ir i m m in e n t p o t e n t ia l r e m o v a l r i g h t , 10 y o u h a v e a s c h e d u le c h a n g e o f t h e B o a r d o f E s k o m a m a t t e r o f a w e e k la t e r a r o u n d t h e 1 0 t h o f D e c e m b e r i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: Correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m y r e a d i n g o f th e m i n u te s , a n d y o u ’ ll c o r r e c t m e i f I’ m w r o n g , is t h a t i t w a s e n v is a g e d t h a t y o u w o u l d h o ld a n o t h e r m e e ti n g fi v e d a y s la t e r o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r s o t h a t th e m a t t e r c o u ld b e fi n a l is e d b u t b y t h e B o a r d w h o k n e w a ll a b o u t h is , h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , t h e r e v i e w, i s t h is a f a ir s u m m a r y ? MR TSOTSI: T h a t is a f a ir s u m m a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d i t g o e s o n t o s a y, “ in r e s p o n s e to a d i s c u s s io n a s t o w h e th e r t h e c o n tr a c t c o u l d b e r e g a r d e d a s a g o o d o r b a d i t w a s a g r e e d fr o m t h e s t a n d p o i n t o f th e fi n a n c i a l s t a tu s o f E s k o m t h e c o n tr a c t c o u l d n o t b e r e g a r d e d a s a g o o d c o n tr a c t ” . A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n t o s a y, “ T h a t c o u ld n ’t b e fi n a l ly r e s o l v e d u n t il M r M a j il a h a d m a d e Page 73 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s to t h e B o a r d a n d e x p l a in e d w h y h e w a s o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t i t w a s a g o o d c o n tr a c t ” , Do you see that? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t a g o o d r e c o r d a l o f th e v i e w o f t h e B o a r d p r i o r t o M r M a j il a ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s , is i t f a ir t o s a y t h e B o a r d o n t h a t d a y, th e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r d i d n ’ t r e g a r d i t a s a g o o d c o n t r a c t i n th e c o n te x t o f Es k o m ’s fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n a t t h e ti m e ? MR TSOTSI: 10 Ye s t h a t is t h e c a s e , y o u ’ ll r e m e m b e r t h a t w e , C h a ir m a n , h a d to m e e t u p w it h th e a u d i t o r s a n d t h e a u d i to r s m a d e i t e x p r e s s l y c le a r, a c c o r d in g t o th e a u d i t p r o c e s s t h a t t h is ir r e g u l a r i ty h a d t o b e r e fl e c t e d i n t h e i n te r i m f i n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts . S o w h a t th e B o a r d w a s f o c u s e d o n h e r e is t h a t t h i s ir r e g u l a r i t y is r e fl e c ti n g n e g a tiv e ly o n Eskom and E s k o m ’s business and fr o m that p e r s p e c tiv e it is in tr in s ic a lly n o t a g o o d c o n tr a c t . I’ m n o t t a lk i n g c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e , I’ m t a lk in g i n t r i n s ic v a lu e o f t h e c o n tr a c t t o E s k o m , s o t h a t w a s a – t h a t’s w h a t p r o m p t e d th is p a r t ic u l a r n o t e h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o t s i , y o u s a i d y o u w e r e n ’ t t a l k i n g a b o u t c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e w h e n y o u w e r e – w h e n th e B o a r d w a s d i s c u s s in g 20 w h e t h e r i t w a s a g o o d o r a b a d c o n tr a c t b u t i t is n o t e d h e r e i n t h e c o n te x t o f th e fi n a n c i a l s t a t u s o f E s k o m , d o e s n ’t t h a t s u g g e s t t h a t y o u w e r e in t e r e s t e d i n th e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t w h e n y o u w e r e having this conversation? MR TSOTSI: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t , w e w e r e i n te r e s t e d in th e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t y e s a n d I t h i n k th a t is r e fl e c t e d , I th i n k , i n t h e Page 74 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 m e e ti n g o f th e 8 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d , I’ m ju s t p ic k i n g it u p fo r t h e fir s t ti m e , it s e e m s o n th e 3 r d a n d y o u ’l l t e l l m e i f y o u d is a g r e e , t h e B o a r d is k e e n t o h a v e a n o th e r m e e ti n g t o r e s o lv e t h is b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w th e ir t e r m is c o m in g to a n e n d , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: Correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e B o a r d is , a m o n g s t o t h e r th in g s , c o n s i d e r in g w h e t h e r t h e r e is c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e i n t h i s c o n tr a c t a n d i t is – t h e y a r e c o n c lu d in g th a t i t i s – s h o u l d n ’ t b e r e g a r d e d a s a g o o d 10 c o n tr a c t, g iv e n t h e f in a n c ia l s i t u a t io n o f Es k o m b u t t h e y l e a v e o p e n t h a t th e y n e e d to h e a r fr o m M a j il a o n th e q u e s ti o n , is th a t a c c u r a t e ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n l e t’s m o v e to t h e m e e ti n g o f t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r, y o u ’l l s e e t h e m i n u t e s c o m m e n c e o n p a g e 3 4 9 in t h e s a m e B u n d le M N 3 . O h , b u t s o r r y, M r Ts o t s i w e h a v e t o g o t o o n e o t h e r d o c u m e n t b e f o r e t h a t b e c a u s e w e ’r e tr a c k in g th e c h r o n o l o g y c a r e f u lly. Yo u ’ll r e c a l l 3 D e c e m b e r is t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g , th e n e x t B o a r d m e e ti n g is s c h e d u l e d o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r b u t b e tw e e n t h o s e t w o e v e n t s , t h e B o a r d a c t u a ll y g o t L e d w a b a M a z w a i ’s f in a l r e p o r t a n d t h a t o c c u r r e d o n 20 t h e 4 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d w e n e e d t o g o to p a g e 1 8 0 i n t h e s a m e B u n d l e M N 3 ju s t t o s e e th a t r e p o r t a n d t h e r e ’s j u s t o n e a s p e c t o f it t h a t I’ d l ik e t o d r a w t o y o u r a t te n ti o n . MR TSOTSI: 180? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , is th a t d o c u m e n t f a m il ia r t o y o u ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . Page 75 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: W h a t is i t? T h is is th e r e p o r t s u m m a r y o f t h e fi n d i n g s o f M a z w a i L e d w a b a w h ic h w e h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e m t o p r o v i d e u s w i th . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t I w a n t e d t o d r a w y o u r a t te n ti o n t o is w h a t is r e c o r d e d a t p a g e 1 9 0 o f t h a t r e p o r t b e c a u s e y o u ’l l r e c a l l , o n e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t L e d w a b a M a z w a i w a s a s k e d t o a s s is t th e B o a r d o n w a s w h a t i t’s o p ti o n s w e r e i n r e la t i o n to t h e c o n tr a c t a n d a m o n g s t i t ’s o p t io n s , w h e t h e r th e B o a r d s h o u l d r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t , d o y o u r e c a ll that? 10 MR TSOTSI: I do. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d if y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 4 . 1 . 3 . 2 o n t h a t p a g e w h a t th e a u th o r s a r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e r e a r e r a ti fi c a t io n a n d t h e y record, “ A n y r a ti fi c a t io n o f t h e T N A c o n t r a c t b y t h e E s k o m B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s w o u ld , i n o u r v i e w, b e p r e d ic a te d o n o n e o r b o t h o f t h e f o ll o w i n g p r i m a r y c o n s i d e r a t i o n s n a m e ly a n d t h e n t h e fi r s t o n e t h e r e is , i f t h e B o a r d d e t e r m i n e s o r c o n s i d e r s f r o m a c o m m e r c ia l p e r s p e c tiv e t h a t t h e TN A c o n tr a c t r e p r e s e n ts a g o o d v a l u e f o r m o n e y p r o p o s i ti o n a s m e a s u r e d a g a i n s t t h e 20 c o s ts o f t h e s p o n s o r s h i p o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d t h e b e n e fi t t o b e d e r iv e d t h e r e fr o m b y E s k o m o n t h e o t h e r, a n d / o r a n d t h e n it g o e s o n to ta lk a b o u t th e c o n s e q u e n c e s th a t m i g h t f o l lo w i f y o u d o n ’ t r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t ” , A n d th e l a s t p o i n t o n t h e p a g e I’ d lik e t o ju s t e m p h a s i s e is a t 4 .1 . 4 w h a t L e d w a b a M a z w a i m a d e c l e a r t h e r e is t h a t, t h e y a r e n o t a b l e Page 76 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t o o ff e r a n y a d v ic e r e g a r d in g t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e t o Es k o m o f t h e T N A c o n tr a c t. I s it f a ir to s a y, o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f e v e n t s a s t h e y developed that Ledwaba Mazwai was leaving th e q u e s ti o n of c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e t o th e B o a r d o f Es k o m t o r e s o l v e ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s t h a t’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w e c a n p ic k i t u p a g a in a t t h e 8 D e c e m b e r m i n u te s i f w e m a y a n d y o u ’l l f i n d t h a t a t 3 4 9 . W e r e y o u i n a tt e n d a n c e a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? MR TSOTSI: 10 Ye s I w a s C h a i r i n g t h e m e e t in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d y o u ’l l g o o v e r th e p a g e t o 3 5 0 a n d y o u ’ ll s e e a g a i n , u n d e r i te m 7 is t h e T N A s p o n s o r s h i p l e g a l r e p o r t , is i t f a ir t o s a y it w a s o c c u p y in g q u i t e a b i t o f t h e t i m e o f t h e B o a r d a t t h is s t a g e , th is w h o le is s u e ? MR TSOTSI: Yo u m e a n a t th a t m e e t i n g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: Ye s . I t h in k t h e p r i m a r y p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t in g w a s t h i s is s u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: 20 Indeed. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o v e r t o p a g e 3 5 1 y o u ’ ll s e e t h e p o i n t th a t I w a s m a k i n g e a r l ie r to y o u a b o u t w h a t is r e c o r d e d a s h a v i n g b e e n c o n v e y e d b y th e l a w y e r s a t t h is m e e ti n g i n t h e s e c o n d l a s t p a r a g r a p h i t is r e c o r d e d t h a t th e l a w y e r s w e r e o f th e o p i n i o n th a t Mr M a ji la ’s c o n d u c t c o n s ti t u t e d a w il f u l m i s c o n d u c t i n te r ms o f t h e P F M A . T h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y s t a te d t h a t i f t h e r e w a s f i n a n c ia l m i s c o n d u c t b y Page 77 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 a n e m p l o y e e t h e n th e B o a r d m u s t e n s u r e t h a t a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s c o n d u c t e d a n d r e l e v a n t d is c i p li n a r y a c ti o n w a s t a k e n . F u r t h e r m o r e , th e B o a r d h a d t o a d v is e t h e r e l e v a n t M i n is t e r, N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l t h e r e o f in r e s p e c t o f t h e r e p o r t a b l e ir r e g u la r i ty i t w a s r e p o r t e d th a t t h e e x t e r n a l a u d i to r s h a d m a d e th e d i s c l o s u r e t h e r e o n . S o w h a t I w a s i n te r e s t e d i n t h e r e , Mr Ts o ts i i s t h is o b li g a ti o n o n th e B o a r d to a a d v i s e t h e M i n is t e r, N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d A u d i t o r G e n e r a l o f Mr M a j il a ’s c o n d u c t , t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e , d i d th a t t a k e p l a c e , o t h e r t h a n th e i n f o r m a l c o n v e r s a ti o n y o u h a d w i t h t h e M in is t e r p r i o r to t h is ? 10 MR TSOTSI: I d o n ’ t r e c a ll w h e t h e r t h a t m a t t e r w a s d e a l t w i t h , I m u s t be hones, I don’t recall it was. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: Should it have been? W e l l i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e a d v i c e w e g o t t h a t’s w h a t should have happened. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e a n y i n s i g h t a s t o w h y i t d id n ’t ? MR TSOTSI: W e l l I d o n ’ t h a v e in s i g h t a s t h a t it d i d n o t o c c u r, I ’ m j u s t s a y in g I d o n ’ t r e c a l l. C h a ir I t h i n k , o n e o f t h e d i ff ic u l t ie s i n t h e is s u e o f r e c o l l e c ti o n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR TSOTSI: Ye s . Is t h a t y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r t h o u g h E s k o m d o e s n o t s h u t d o w n a s o r d i n a r i ly o th e r b u s i n e s s e s d o , a l o t o f p e o p l e g o o n le a v e a n d t h e r e ’s b a s ic a l ly a s k e l e to n s t a ff t h a t ’s le f t , c e r t a i n l y a t th e h e a d q u a r te r s w h e r e I w a s a n d s o t h is b r e a k c o u l d v e r y e a s i ly h a v e l e d to u s n o t c o n n e c ti n g w i t h t h e c o n t i n u i ty t h a t ’s r e q u ir e d o n t h e s e is s u e s a n d t h a t c o m i n g b a c k i t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n p ic k e d u p Page 78 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 i m m e d i a t e ly b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s a l w a y s o n e t h i n g o r a n o t h e r t h a t c a m e o n t h e s c e n e . S o I ’ m s a y i n g t h is t o s i m p ly s a y t h a t , o r d i n a r il y t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n ti n u i ty i f i t h a d b e e n a n y o t h e r ti m e o f th e y e a r a n d o n e w o u ld h a v e s e e n t h r o u g h th e s e t h in g s h a p p e n i n g b u t b e c a u s e o f th a t b r e a k , i t ’s j u s t p o s s ib l e t h a t p e o p l e j u s t d r o p p e d th e b a ll a t th a t ti m e . S o I t h i n k t h a t’s p r o b a b l y w h a t c o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d , b u t I’ m n o t s a y in g t h a t i t d i d n o t h a p p e n w e ’ d h a v e to c h e c k w i t h t h e – w i t h e i t h e r t h e M i n is t e r ’s o ff ic e o r t h e – E s k o m ’s o ffic e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Ye s , c e r ta i n ly w e h a v e e n d e a v o u r e d in o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s t o u n c o v e r a n y s u c h n o t i fic a ti o n a n d h a v e n o t fo u n d a n y b a r r i n g o n e l e t te r t h a t I ’l l c o m e t o b u t th a t w a s w r i t t e n i n J u n e o f 2 0 1 5 , a ft e r y o u r t i m e o n th e B o a r d . W h a t I ’ m i n t e r e s te d in is , f o r a s l o n g a s y o u w e r e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d , w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d e n d e d i n – a t t h e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 , y o u h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h i s m a t te r b e i n g t a k e n f o r w a r d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR TSOTSI: N o r e c o l l e c ti o n o f i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w o u ld y o u r e g a r d it a s q u it e a n i m p o r t a n t m a t t e r t o h a v e t a k e n f o r w a r d M r Ts o t s i ? MR TSOTSI: 20 W e ll c e r t a in ly fr o m t h e p e r s p e c t iv e o f g o v e r n a n c e a n d t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts t h e r e o f i ts s o m e t h in g t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n ta k e n c a r e o f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. If w e c a n t h e n g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 3 5 2 , i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h is p a g e , t h e d is c u s s io n t h a t is n o w b e i n g m i n u t e d is t h e d i s c u s s io n a b o u t c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e , y o u ’ ll r e c a ll y o u a n d I r e c a l l e d e a r li e r in o u r d i s c u s s i o n t h a t i t w a s r e a ll y a t th e 8 D e c e m b e r Page 79 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 m e e ti n g t h a t, t h a t is s u e w a s v e n ti la t e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: Correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u ’r e a c t u a ll y r e c o r d e d t h e r e i n t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h a s s a y in g , “ T h e C h a i r m a n s t a t e d th a t t h e B o a r d h a d t o b e c o n v in c e d t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t a b a d o n e ” , D o y o u r e m e m b e r s a y in g th a t ? MR TSOTSI: Hang on, what page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o w e ’r e a t 3 5 2 i t ’s th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h a n d i ts a t t h e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h t o w a r d s t h e r i g h t- h a n d s id e o f t h e p a g e , t h e r e ’s a s e n te n c e t h a t b e g i n s , “ t h e C h a i r m a n s t a te d ” , d o y o u have that? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ T h e C h a i r m a n s ta t e d t h a t t h e B o a r d h a d t o b e c o n v i n c e d th a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t a b a d o n e ” . MR TSOTSI: Ar e y o u s u r e th a t ’s p a g e 3 5 2 ? CHAIRPERSON: J a I ’ m a ls o l o o k in g I c a n ’t fi n d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right have you got a second paragraph on t h a t p a g e r e a d i n g , “ i t w a s n o te d ” ? 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o – o h n o th e r e i s o n e , i t i s n o t e d ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: O k a y. I s e e , “i t w a s n o t e d ” t h a t ’s t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d t h e n i f y o u g o s ix l i n e s d o w n in t h a t p a r a g r a p h … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR TSOTSI: O k a y I s e e i t. Page 80 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y t h e – w h e n I s a i d th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h it ’s t h e f ir s t fu ll p a r a g r a p h … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I t h o u g h t t h a t w o u ld c o n f u s e h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t is c e r t a i n l y w h a t ’s l e d t o th e c o n f u s i o n I a p o lo g i s e , y o u ’ ll s e e a s e n te n c e t h e r e th a t s a y s , “ T h e C h a i r m a n s t a t e d th a t t h e B o a r d h a d t o b e c o n v in c e d t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t a b a d o n e ” , Do you see that? MR TSOTSI: 10 Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: Do you remember taking that view? Ye s I d o a n d th e r e a s o n I r e m e m b e r is b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n i n s i s t e n c e e a r l i e r i f y o u r e c a ll t h a t t h e o n u s is o n C o li n M a ji l a t o c o m e t o t h e B o a r d a n d i n f o r m th e B o a r d a n d g i v e t h e B o a r d t h e r e a s o n s w h y h e t h o u g h t th is w a s a g o o d c o n tr a c t . S o t h is is w h y I s t a te d th is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d h e p r o v i d e d y o u w i th h is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s y e t , b y th is s t a g e , t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r t h e B o a r d s a y s , w e d o n ’ t t h in k t h e r e ’s v a l u e in t h is c o n tr a c t b u t w e w a n t t o h e a r fr o m M r M a j il a r ig h t . 20 T h e n t h e r e ’s a m e e t i n g o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r, d o y o u h a v e a r e c o l le c ti o n w h e t h e r y o u g o t r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s f r o m h i m in t h a t g a p ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s I r e c a l l t h a t Mr M a j il a w r o te a r e s p o n s e o r a e x p l a n a t io n o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d h e p u t f o r w a r d s o m e ju s t i fi c a t io n a s t o w h y h e d i d w h a t h e d id a n d I t h in k t h a t c a m e i n b e t w e e n t h e s e t w o m e e ti n g s . Page 81 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s c e r t a i n ly i f w e p u t t h e c h r o n o l o g y t o g e t h e r t h a t s e e ms lik e ly. W h a t I m u s t s a y is w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o fi n d e m a i l r e c o r d s o f p r e c is e ly w h e n i t c a m e t h r o u g h t o y o u o r to th e B o a r d b u t th e d o c u m e n t i ts e l f is d a t e d q u i te a b i t b a c k . Th e r e is a d a t e o n i t a t th e e n d b e a r i n g 2 7 N o v e m b e r. T h e r e is a d a t e o n i t o n th e fr o n t b e a r in g 5 N o v e m b e r. I f M r M a tj il a h a d b e e n a v a i la b l e to u s t o e n g a g e w e c e r ta i n ly w o u l d h a v e p r o b e d th is w it h h i m . O n t h e c h r o n o lo g y i t s e e m s p o s s i b ly t h a t th e 5 N o v e m b e r i s a n e r r o r. I t m i g h t h a v e b e e n 5 D e c e m b e r. 10 M R T S O T S I : D e c e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e th e n it w o u l d m a k e a b s o l u t e s e n s e in t h e c h r o n o l o g y. 3 December you do not have it. 8 December you do h a v e i t b e c a u s e y o u n o w d is c u s s i n g p o i n te d l y c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e . Is t h a t y o u r r e c o ll e c t i o n ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w i ll s e e a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h a t w e w e r e in a m o m e n t a g o t h e r e is a r e c o r d a l th a t M s L u t h u l i s ta t e d th a t th e h a n d o v e r r e p o r t h a d t o r e f le c t t h a t th e B o a r d h a d c o n s i d e r e d w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s a b a d o n e a n d h a d 20 c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t g o o d a t t h i s t i m e . Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o is t h a t a f a ir s u m m a r y o f t h e v i e w t h a t th is B o a r d t o o k o n th e 8 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 t h a t i ts v ie w w a s t h a t i t w a s n o t a g o o d c o n tr a c t a n d t h a t t h a t s h o u l d b e r e f l e c t e d in h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts f o r Page 82 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 the new Board? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i t r e s o lv e s , t h is m e e ti n g o v e r t h e p a g e a t 3 5 3 th a t y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e is a b o l d e d w o r d s R e s o lv e That. A n d u n d e r t h a t a t p o in t 2 L e d w a b a M a z w a i A t t o r n e y s a n d t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y s h o u l d p r e p a r e a s u m m a r y a n d fi n a l r e s o l u ti o n o n t h e d is c u s s i o n s a n d d e c is io n s a r o u n d t h e N e w A g e s p o n s o r s h ip c o n tr a c t f o r s i g n in g b y th e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d a n d C h a ir m a n o f t h e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e fo r i n c lu s i o n i n h a n d o v e r r e p o r t t o t h e n e w 10 B o a r d . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f M s L u th u l i ’s i n s is te n c e a n d r e c o r d a l w a s f o ll o w e d t h r o u g h t h a t h a n d o v e r r e p o r t s h o u l d i n c lu d e a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t t h e o l d B o a r d h a d a s s e s s e d c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e a n d h a d d e te r m in e d t h a t it w a s n o t a g o o d c o n tr a c t f o r E s k o m a t t h e ti m e . Is th a t r i g h t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n w e g e t t h e 11 D e c e m b e r M r Ts o ts i w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 11 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 ? M R T S O T S I : W e l l o n t h e 11 D e c e m b e r C h a ir is th e d a te th a t t h e n e w 20 B o a r d c a m e i n to p l a c e a n d o b v i o u s ly s i g n a ll e d t h e e n d o f t h e t e r m o f the – of the previous Board. So there was a new Board in place on the 11 D e c e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s t h e – w a s i t th e e n v is a g e d e n d o f t h e te r m o f t h e B o a r d o r d i d t h e te r m o f t h e B o a r d c o m e t o a n e n d m a y b e a b r u p tl y is n o t th e r i g h t w o r d . W a s i t th e e n d o f t h e f u l l t e r m t h a t h a d b e e n – Page 83 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h a t th e B o a r d w a s s u p p o s e d to s e r v e ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is d i ffi c u l t t o s a y C h a i r b e c a u s e t h e – n o r m a l ly t h e t e r m o f t h e B o a r d is d e te r m i n e d b y t h e i n te r v a ls b e t w e e n t h e a n n u a l g e n e r a l m e e ti n g s . N o w i n t h is i n s t a n c e w e h a d g o n e p a s t t h e a n n u a l g e n e r a l m e e t i n g w h ic h w o u ld h a v e ta k e n u s i n t o a te r m o f t h r e e y e a r s b e c a u s e t h a t A G M t o o k p l a c e s o m e ti m e in O c t o b e r I t h i n k i t w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : I t c o u ld h a v e b e e n e a r l ie r, A u g u s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A u g u s t . 10 M R T S O T S I : B u t a ls o w h a t c a m e i n t o p l a y a s w e ll w a s t h e c h a n g e o f M i n is t e r s . CHAIRPERSON: Maybe – maybe to assist you when you get up – when y o u g o t a p p o in t e d I a s s u m e t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a l e t t e r s a y in g t h i s is y o u r t e r m , y o u a r e a p p o in t e d w i th e ffe c t fr o m t h a t d a t e e i t h e r t o a s p e c i f ic d a t e o r u n ti l t h e n e x t A G M . A n d s o – a n d I t h i n k y o u h a d – y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t y o u h a d s e r v e d y o u r f ir s t te r m . I do not know w h e t h e r y o u h a d a l s o a c t u a l ly f in is h e d y o u r s e c o n d te r m s o I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o l o o k a t w h e t h e r w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e e n d o f th e t e r m o f th e B o a r d o n t h e 11 t h a n d t h e n e w B o a r d t o o k o v e r w h e th e r t h a t w a s 20 b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n it h a d b e e n e n v is a g e d t h e te r m w o u ld e n d o f t h a t B o a r d o r w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e o t h e r e v e n ts w h ic h r e q u ir e d th a t t h e r e b e an end anyway by then of the term of the Board. M R T S O T S I : C h a ir I t h i n k li k e I s a i d I th i n k – w e l l fr o m th e s ta n d p o in t o f th e M i n is te r w h o a p p o in t e d u s o u r t e r m w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e e n d e d a t t h e A G M t h a t t o o k p la c e in 2 0 1 4 . Page 84 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: Now… C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n w h ic h m o n th i f y o u a r e a b le to remember? MR TSOTSI: Th a t w o u ld have been around September – August/September somewhere around there. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A n d y o u a r e n o w i n D e c e m b e r ? M R T S O T S I : D e c e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 MR TSOTSI: N o w w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d is t h a t th e M in is t e r w h o a p p o i n t e d u s h a d le f t o ffi c e b y th e n a n d t h e r e w a s a n e w M i n i s t e r. A n d w e g o t a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t th e M i n i s t e r w a n ts t o r e v ie w t h e p o s i ti o n in s o f a r a s t h e B o a r d is c o n c e r n e d w h ic h g e n e r a l ly m e a n s t h a t s h e w a s lo o k in g t o m a k e s s o m e c h a n g e s in t h e B o a r d . N o w I a m a s s u m i n g th a t it t o o k t h a t l o n g fo r h e r f r o m t h e ti m e s h e c a m e i n b e c a u s e s h e c o u l d n o t d o i t w i t h i n th e ti m e fr a m e w h e n t h e A G M o c c u r r e d . So she – I a s s u m e s h e n e e d e d m o r e t i m e s o w e w e r e e s s e n t ia ll y ju s t h o l d in g fo r t u n t il s h e w a s r e a d y a n d t h a t o c c u r r e d t h e n b y D e c e m b e r – 11 D e c e m b e r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A n d w o u l d t h a t – d i d th a t o c c u r b y w a y o f r e s ig n a ti o n s ? MR TSOTSI: N o C h a ir. A l l th a t h a p p e n e d w a s th a t th e M i n i s t e r b e c a u s e s h e h a s th e p r e r o g a ti v e t o a p p o i n t t h e B o a r d s i m p l y w r o t e to B o a r d m e m b e r s to s a y t h e y a r e e i t h e r b e i n g r e a p p o i n t e d o r t h e ir t e r m h a s c o m p l e te d a n d th e y a r e n o l o n g e r b e i n g r e a p p o in t e d . Page 85 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e i t w a s s o m e t h i n g y o u w e r e s ti ll g o i n g to d e a l with. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir if I m a y – n o t a t a ll . I f I m a y ju s t f o ll o w u p t h e r e ? O n e t h i n g t h a t m a y b e o f a s s is ta n c e t o y o u M r Ts o t s i w h ic h y o u m a y n o t b e a w a r e o f i s M r P a m e n s k y g a v e e v i d e n c e t h a t 10 t h e r e w a s c e r t a in ly a d v e r t is e m e n ts f o r a p p l ic a n t s f o r p o s i ti o n s o f B o a r d s o f S O E ’s a r o u n d S e p t e m b e r o f 2 0 1 4 . I assume that was a p r o d u c t o f th e n e w M i n i s t e r c o m i n g i n a n d ju s t t o b e c l e a r fo r h e r e c o r d w h o w a s t h e n e w M in is t e r ? M R T S O T S I : I t w a s M i n is t e r L y n n e B r o w n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n th e r e w e r e – t h e r e w a s a p r o c e s s w h e r e a p p l ic a t i o n s w e r e m a d e a n d s u b m i t te d a n d t h e n a p r o c e s s t h a t w a s t a k e n u n d e r t h e w i n g o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s a n d t h e n p e r s o n s w h o w e r e g o i n g t o b e a p p o in t e d t o t h e n e w B o a r d w e r e c o n ta c t e d a n d th o s e w h o w o u l d r e m a i n w e r e g i v e n 20 r e a p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t o n e p o in t o f c l a r i fic a ti o n a l s o t o b e o f a s s is t a n c e t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f I n c o r p o r a t io n o f E s k o m t a l k s a b o u t th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f – f o r t h r e e y e a r s o f a n y B o a r d m e m b e r s a n d t h e n it c a n be renewed. S o w h e n y o u w e r e i n i ti a l ly a p p o i n t e d in A u g u s t o f 2 0 11 Page 86 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 was that a three year appointment? M R T S O T S I : Ye s i t w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o th a t is w h y i t w o u l d c o in c i d e w i t h t h e a n n u a l g e n e r a l m e e t i n g i n 2 0 1 4 b u t y o u h a v e d e s c r i b e d w h y n o t e x a c tly in t i m e w i th th a t t h e n e w B o a r d w a s c h a n g e d t h e n i n D e c e m b e r, is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o t h i s p r o c e s s w e h e a r d e v i d e n c e fr o m 10 Mr Pamensky ran i ts course we assume. A d v e r t is e m e n t a p p lic a ti o n s b u t t h e n o n t h e 11 D e c e m b e r t h e n e w B o a r d is a n n o u n c e d , is t h a t r i g h t ? MR TSOTSI: Right. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i h o w m a n y o f t h e o l d Es k o m B o a r d m e m b e r s r e m a i n e d i n th e n e w B o a r d ? D o y o u r e c a ll ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s th e r e w e r e o n ly t w o n o n - e x e c u t iv e B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o r e m a i n e d a n d o f c o u r s e th e r e a r e t w o e x e c u t iv e B o a r d m e m b e r s a ls o w h o a r e i n m a n a g e m e n t w e r e s t il l o n t h e B o a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. A n d is t h a t a c o n c e r n a t a l l fo r c o n ti n u i ty r e a s o n s t h a t y o u w o u l d o n l y r e t a i n t w o o f t h e n o n - e x e c u ti v e s 20 or not? M R T S O T S I : W e l l I w il l b e g iv i n g a p e r s o n a l o p i n i o n h e r e C h a ir i f I w a s to say so but I am happy to do that. I t h i n k t h a t i t w o u ld s e r v e a n y in s t i tu t io n s u c h a s E s k o m o r a n y o t h e r e n ti ty i f t h e r e is s u ffic i e n t c o n ti n u i ty. S o I – I h a d h o p e d t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e s u c h c o n ti n u i ty w h e r e a t le a s t m a y b e o n e t h ir d o f t h e B o a r d w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e t a i n e d Page 87 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 in t h e r o t a t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i i n y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e P o r t fo li o Committee you did deal w i th t h is aspect of th e new B o a r d ’s a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d a n e n g a g e m e n t y o u h a d a f t e r t h e a p p o in t m e n ts w i t h M i n is t e r B r o w n . I t is n o t a n a s p e c t th a t y o u h a v e tr a v e r s e d i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t a t a ll b u t i n o u r p r e p a r a ti o n fo r t o d a y w e c o n s i d e r e d t h a t t e s ti m o n y. C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d in t h a t i n t e r a c t io n a b o u t th e appointment to Board committees? M R T S O T S I : O h I s e e w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . Ye s . C h a ir th is i s a 10 p r o c e s s w h ic h o r d i n a r i ly o c c u r s w h e n t h e r e is a n e w B o a r d t h a t c o m e s in t o b e i n g . In t h e i n s t a n c e o f Es k o m w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e n u m b e r o f s u b - c o m m i t t e e s th a t h a v e b e p u t i n p l a c e th e r e n e e d s t o b e a n a l lo c a t io n o f B o a r d m e m b e r s t o t h e s u b - c o m m i t t e e s . N o w th is a l lo c a t io n is o r d i n a r il y d o n e b y t h e C h a ir m a n a n d i n c o n s u l t a ti o n o b v i o u s l y w i t h t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w h o a r e in v o lv e d a n d o f c o u r s e w i t h th e – w i t h th e M i n i s te r. Th e e x c e p ti o n w o u l d b e t h e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e w h ic h is a s ta t u to r y c o m m i t te e o v e r w h ic h t h e M i n is t e r h a s g o t d i r e c t a u t h o r i t y in w h o s e r v e s o n t h a t B o a r d . B u t t h e r e s t o f t h e c o m m i t te e s I n o r m a l ly I o r d i n a r i ly th e C h a ir m a n w o u l d a s s is t 20 in t h e c a s e o f Es k o m a s I s a y. S o I w e n t a b o u t d o in g t h is w h e n t h e n e w B o a r d w a s in p l a c e a n d i n t h e p r o c e s s o f d o i n g t h is I r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l fr o m a c e r t a i n E s s a – w h a t is E s s a ’s f ir s t n a m e n o w ? I ju s t fo r g e t h is fir s t n a m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S a l ie m . MR TSOTSI: S a li e m E s s a y e s . A n d M r E s s a d r e w m y a t t e n t io n to a Page 88 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 s e l e c t i o n o f B o a r d m e m b e r s i n to v a r i o u s c o m m i t t e e s w h ic h h e h a d d o n e . A n d h e t h e n a s k e d m e to h a v e a l o o k a t t h a t a n d p a s s i t o n t o t h e M in is t e r. N o w I w a s q u i t e c l e a r l y ta k e n a b a c k a r o u n d t h i s b e c a u s e I d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h is r o l e w a s a n d t h e r e a s o n s w h y h e w a s in v o lv e d in t h i s . A n d s o I p r e t t y m u c h i g n o r e d w h a t [ in d i s ti n c t ] . CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y h a d y o u h a d a n y i n t e r a c t io n s w i t h h i m b e f o r e t h is ? MR TSOTSI: I had met Mr Essa in the – these breakfast meetings. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I h a d c o m e t o k n o w h i m a t th a t t i m e . M R T S O T S I : Ye s o k a y a lr i g h t. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . S o h e t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a i d y o u i g n o r e d t h i s e m a il , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A n d t h e n I p r o c e e d e d t o d o t h e s e le c ti o n t h e w a y I t h o u g h t i t s h o u l d b e d o n e b a s e d o n p e o p le ’s C V ’s a n d w h a t th e y c a n c o n tr i b u t e t o th e v a r i o u s c o m m i t t e e s . A n d I p a s s e d t h is o n to th e M i n is t e r w h ic h is w h a t I o r d i n a r i ly w o u ld h a v e t o d o . A n d t h e M i n i s te r r e s p o n d e d b a c k t o m e a n d s e n t m e w h a t s h e p u r p o r ts w a s fr o m h e r p o i n t o f v ie w w h a t s h o u ld b e d o n e . 20 p r e c i s e ly w h a t E s s a h a d s e n t m e . A n d w h e n I lo o k e d a t i t it w a s S o I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t t h e r e m u s t b e s o m e c o l lu s i o n o f s o m e k i n d b e t w e e n M r Es s a a n d t h e M i n is te r in s o f a r a s t h is m a t te r is c o n c e r n e d . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y i t w a s e x a c tly t h e s a m e ? M R T S O T S I : I t w a s p r e c i s e ly t h e s a m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 89 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: S o t h a t w a s w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t h e r e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e m a t t e r o f B o a r d m e m b e r s a n d t h e ir a ll o c a t io n t o v a r i o u s c o m m i t t e e s o f the Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o t s i d o y o u r e c a l l in y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e t a lk i n g a b o u t a m e e ti n g y o u h a d a t t h e h o m e o f M i n is t e r B r o w n a t w h ic h th is i s s u e w a s d is c u s s e d ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I d o r e c a ll t h a t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Because what you have relayed to us now is t h a t t h e in t e r a c ti o n s y o u h a d w i th M i n i s t e r Br o w n o n th is a s p e c t w a s 10 d o n e i n w r it i n g a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . Yo u p r o p o s e d t o h e r a n d s h e c a m e b a c k i n w r i t in g w i t h a lis t t h a t a c c o r d e d w i t h Mr E s s a ’s l is t , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t a b o u t i f a n y i n v o lv e m e n t a t h e r h o m e ? Wa s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t o c c u r r e d ? Yo u r t e s ti m o n y p r e v io u s ly s a i d t h a t y o u w e r e c a l le d to h e r h o m e . MR TSOTSI: Ye s I – t h e M i n is t e r d i d c a l l m e to h e r h o m e a n d I d u ly w e n t a n d t h i s is th e ti m e w h e n C h a ir w e w e r e s t il l w o r k i n g o n fi n a l is in g t h e a ll o c a ti o n t o t h e P o r t f o li o – to th e c o m m i t te e s o f th e d i ffe r e n t B o a r d 20 members. C H A I R P E R S O N : Th is w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o w a r d s t h e – th is w o u l d h a v e been what – towards the end of – of the year of 2014? M R T S O T S I : Ye s c o r r e c t . T h i s w o u l d o r d in a r ily h a v e o c c u r r e d s h o r tly a ft e r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s . S o t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n in D e c e m b e r. Page 90 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Ye s . M R T S O T S I : S h o r tl y a f te r t h e 11 D e c e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m . M R T S O T S I : A n d w h e n I a r r iv e d a t th e M i n is t e r ’s r e s i d e n c e t h e r e w e r e t w o o th e r p e o p le t h e r e . O n e w a s To n y G u p ta , t h e o th e r o n e w a s S a li e m E s s a . A n d I r e a l ly d i d n o t s p e n d m o r e t h a n m a y b e t w o , th r e e m in u t e s . I n fa c t I d id n o t e v e n s i t d o w n . T h e M i n is t e r ju s t s i m p ly i n d ic a te d t o m e t h a t I s h o u l d p l e a s e p r o c e e d o n t h e b a s i s o f w h a t s h e h a d i n d ic a te d to m e i n te r ms o f t h e a l lo c a t i o n s o f t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s i n t o th e d i ffe r e n t 10 s u b - c o m m i t t e e s o f th e B o a r d . And I did not say much except to say t h a t y e s I h a v e s e e n w h a t y o u s e n t b a c k t o m e a n d th a t i s w h a t w e w i ll p r o c e e d to d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e j u s t u n d e r s t a n d t h is . T h is w a s a t a ti m e w h e n n e w m e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d . M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : To w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 . M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w e r e a s k e d b y th e M i n is t e r to m e e t h e r i n – a t her residence, is that right? 20 M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. CHAIRPERSON: So you went there. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O n y o u r o w n o r w i th s o m e b o d y e l s e lik e D G o r another Board member? MR TSOTSI: No, no I went on my own. Page 91 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e n t o n y o u r o w n . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: At that stage did you know what she wanted to d is c u s s w i t h y o u o r n o t b e f o r e y o u g o t t o t h e m e e ti n g ? M R T S O T S I : S h e d id s a y t o m e t h a t s h e j u s t w a n ts to c l a r i fy t h e is s u e o f t h e a p p o in t m e n ts t o t h e s u b - c o m m i t te e s o f t h e B o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d t h is w a s a t a ti m e w h e n s h e h a d a lr e a d y s e n t y o u h e r a ll o c a ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Yo u h a d n o t r e s p o n d e d y e t to – to h e r a l lo c a t io n to h e r ? MR TSOTSI: No I had not responded yet. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o t r e s p o n d e d . MR TSOTSI: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u g o – y o u g e t to h e r r e s id e n c e a n d y o u fi n d th a t t h e r e a r e t w o p e o p l e t h e r e w h o m I s u s p e c t y o u d id n o t e x p e c t t o b e t h e r e . M r To n y G u p t a a n d M r S a l ie m E s s a . M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d t h e M i n i s t e r c o m e s a n d d is c u s s e s o r te ll s y o u w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d i n th e ir p r e s e n c e ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is r ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: A n d b a s ic a l ly s h e w a s s a y in g s h e w o u l d li k e y o u t o p r o c e e d w i th th e a ll o c a ti o n a s i n d ic a te d i n t h e a l lo c a t io n t h a t s h e s e n t you? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 92 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e t w o g e n t l e m e n w e r e th e r e h e a r i n g h e r lis t e n i n g ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d id n o t h a v e m u c h to s a y i n r e s p o n s e ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t h e n t h e e n d o f th e m e e ti n g o r t h e m e e ti n g c o n ti n u e d ? M R T S O T S I : N o t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f th e m e e ti n g . I ju s t le f t a n d I l e f t them there. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Did you ever get to understand why you needed t o b e t o ld t h is in t h e p r e s e n c e o f th e s e t w o g e n tl e m e n ? M R T S O T S I : N o C h a ir m a n I d id n o t a s k t h e M in is t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o ts i h o w w e r e t h e y i n tr o d u c e d a t t h e m e e ti n g t o y o u ? M R T S O T S I : T h e y w e r e n o t in tr o d u c e d a t a l l. I th i n k … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n e w t h e m ? M R T S O T S I : I t h in k t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t I – w a s t h a t I k n e w t h e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Hm. I n d e e d I t h in k y o u r te s t i m o n y h a s c o n fir m e d y o u d id k n o w b o th o f t h e m . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr io r t o th is , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – I a m s o r r y – b u t d id th e M i n is te r k n o w t h a t y o u k n e w t h e m a lr e a d y a t t h a t t i m e ? B e c a u s e i f s h e d id n o t k n o w t h a t y o u Page 93 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 k n e w t h e m o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d h e r t o i n tr o d u c e t h e m t o y o u . M R T S O T S I : T h a t i s r i g h t C h a i r m a n I w o u ld h a v e – I m e a n – I a s s u m e t h a t th e M i n is t e r m u s t k n o w t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n e w t h e m . M R T S O T S I : I k n e w th e m . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d Mr Ts o t s i h o w s u r e a r e y o u a b o u t t h i s m e e ti n g a t h e r h o m e a t w h ic h t h e s e t w o o t h e r p e o p l e w e r e p r e s e n t? I a m a s k in g b e c a u s e M s Br o w n g a v e t e s t i m o n y a f t e r y o u b e f o r e th e 10 P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e . As w e r e a d t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f h e r e v id e n c e s h e d o e s n o t a c t u a ll y d e n y th e m e e ti n g i ts e l f s h e d e n i e s e v e r h a v in g c o n s u l t e d w i t h a n y o n e a b o u t th e a p p o i n t m e n t s o f B o a r d s o r t h e ir a l lo c a t io n t o B o a r d c o m m i t te e s . B u t i n th e e v e n t t h a t M s B r o w n c o m e s t o g iv e e v id e n c e a n d s h e is c e r ta i n ly s c h e d u l e d t o d o s o i n th e a v i a t i o n s e s s i o n i t is fa ir t o a s k y o u h o w c e r ta i n y o u a r e th a t t h i s m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e a n d th e p e o p l e t h e r e w e r e th e p e o p l e w h o y o u s a y w e r e p r e s e n t? M R T S O T S I : C h a ir I a m v e r y c e r ta i n . I t is a s s i m p l e a s t h a t. I a m v e r y certain. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . W h e r e is M s B r o w n ’s – M i n i s te r B r o w n ’s 20 home, do you recall? MR TSOTSI: M i n is t e r B r o w n a t t h a t ti m e h e r h o m e w a s i n t h e g o v e r n m e n t c o m p le x . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w o u l d – o ffic i a l r e s i d e n c e . M R T S O T S I : T h e o ff ic i a l r e s i d e n c e y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 94 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d t h e s e t w o m e n e v e r s a y a n y th in g d u r i n g t h i s m e e ti n g a s fa r a s y o u r e c a ll ? A n y t h i n g o f i m p o r t a n c e a b o u t t h is s u b je c t t h a t w a s b e i n g r a is e d ? M R T S O T S I : N o C h a ir t h e y d i d n o t s a y a n y t h i n g . N o t – n o t s o m e t h i n g r e l a t e d t o t h e m e e t in g o r to t h e d i s c u s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – d id y o u s a y t h e m e e ti n g l a s t e d s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h r e e m i n u t e s , fiv e m i n u t e s ? 10 MR TSOTSI: I would say about three minutes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e – I a m s o r r y – a n d t h e – th e d o c u m e n t s t h e o n e th a t y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m M r E s s a a n d t h e o n e th a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r a n d M s H o f m e y r w i ll t e l l m e if w e h a v e g o t t h e m – d o – a r e w e g o i n g t o h a v e t h e m o r w e d o n o t have them? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e m y n e x t q u e s ti o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e u s e d e v e r y m e a n s a v a i la b l e t o u s t o tr y a n d f in d th e s e e m a il s a n d a s t h e c o m m i s s io n c u r r e n t ly s ta n d s w e 20 h a v e n o t . S o c a n y o u g i v e u s b e t t e r g u id a n c e o n t h a t? D o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r i t w a s s e n t to y o u r Es k o m e m a il a d d r e s s o r p o s s i b ly s o m e o th e r e m a i l a d d r e s s ? M R T S O T S I : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m y E s k o m e m a il a d d r e s s f o r s u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . A n d y o u r r e s p o n s e b a c k w o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n – o h a p o l o g i e s y o u d id n o t e v e r r e s p o n d to M r E s s a . Page 95 of 159 As I 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 u n d e r s t a n d it y o u th e n c o r r e s p o n d e d w i t h t h e M i n i s te r, i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a g a in w o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n d o n e fr o m y o u r Eskom email? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C h a ir i t is n o t c o n c l u s i v e th a t w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b le t o f in d it . Th e r e a r e c e r t a i n m a i l b o x e s t h a t a r e a v a il a b l e , c e r t a i n o f t h e m h a v e b e e n i m a g e d , c e r t a i n o f t h e m a r e n o t. B u t I c a n c e r t a i n l y s a y a s m a tt e r s c u r r e n t ly s t a n d w e d o n o t h a v e th o s e e m a i ls 10 d e s p i te e ff o r ts to o b t a in t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d l o o k fo r t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: B u t M r Ts to s i is q u i t e c le a r t h a t h e d id r e c e iv e a n a l lo c a t io n a s s u g g e s t e d b y Mr Es s a a n d h e d i d r e c e iv e a n a l l o c a t i o n a s d e t e r m i n e d b y th e M i n is t e r a n d th a t th e tw o w e r e e x a c tly t h e s a m e . M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i f w e c o u l d m o v e t o 2 0 1 5 b e c a u s e th e n e x t e v e n t t h a t h a p p e n s r e l a ti v e to t h e T N A c o n t r a c t a s w e 20 h a v e p i e c e d i t to g e th e r i s a R o u n d R o b i n r e s o l u ti o n t h a t c ir c u la t e d o n t h e 3 F e b r u a r y. B e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e t h o u g h o n th e 1 6 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 t h e r e w a s t h e f ir s t B o a r d m e e t i n g o f t h e n e w B o a r d , d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e w il l n e e d t o g o t o Mr P a m e n s k y ’s b u n d l e a g a i n E x h i b i t M M 3 in o r d e r t o fi n d t h a t m i n u t e . Page 96 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 CHAIRPERSON: What page again? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t C h a ir l e t m e j u s t fi n d i t i f I m a y ? W i ll b e at page 366. CHAIRPERSON: 366? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M r Ts o ts i t h is i s M in u t e o f a M e e t i n g o f t h e E s k o m B o a r d in c o m m i t te e h e l d o n t h e 1 6 J a n u a r y a t M e g a w a t t P a r k fr o m n i n e o ’ c l o c k . Do you recall being in attendance at this m e e ti n g M R T S O T S I : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o t s i – C h a ir ju s t b e f o r e th e lu n c h b r e a k b e c a u s e i t w a s a b i t o f a n e x t e n d e d b r e a k w e d i d s e e k to in d i c a t e to M r Ts o t s i s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s w e w o u l d t a k e h i m t o s o t h a t h e c o u l d u s e t h e t i m e t o f a m il ia r is e h i m s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o t s i y o u w i ll l e t u s k n o w i f y o u – y o u n e e d a n y f u r th e r t i m e . B u t a g a i n ju s t t o s u m m a r i s e t h e s e m i n u t e s w h a t w e h a v e d o n e i n lo o k in g a t t h e m i n u te s i s c h e c k e d w h e t h e r t h e is s u e o f th e T N A c o n tr a c t c a m e u p a t a l l a t t h is m e e t in g . A n d c e r t a i n ly th e M i n u t e s d o n o t r e f l e c t th a t i t w a s d is c u s s e d . D o y o u h a v e a n y d i ff e r e n t 20 r e c o l l e c ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : N o I d o n o t r e c a ll th a t th e T N A i s s u e w a s d is c u s s e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : in it i a l ly. Right. S o r r y a p o lo g ie s . I t r e a l ly i s a n i n tr o d u c t o r y m e e ti n g I t o o k y o u t o th e i n - c o m m i t t e e m e e t i n g t h e r e is a c tu a l ly a p r i o r m i n u t e a t 3 5 4 t h a t w e n e e d t o g o t o . T h a t is t h e f u l l m e e t in g o f t h e B o a r d o n t h e 1 6 J a n u a r y. Page 97 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: 35? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 5 4 . A n d i n th e f u l l m e e ti n g – t h e m e e ti n g o f t h e B o a r d a g a in n o is s u e w a s r a i s e d a b o u t t h e TN A c o n tr a c t a s w e r e a d t h e m i n u t e s . C a n y o u c o n fi r m th a t ? M R T S O T S I : T h i s is n o w t h e M i n u t e s o f th e 1 6 J a n u a r y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s s o w h a t h a p p e n s is t h e r e s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n tw o m e e ti n g s . W e w il l p ic k it u p l a te r. T h is c l e a r ly w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d a t E s k o m . Yo u w o u ld h a v e a n i n - c o m m i t t e e m e e t i n g o f t h e B o a r d a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e t h e f u l l B o a r d m e e t in g o ft e n o n t h e 10 s a m e d a y. S o w h a t I h a d d o n e w a s I h a d i n it i a l ly ta k e n y o u t o th e in c o m m i t t e e m e e t in g m in u t e s . M R T S O T S I : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e n o w j u s t g o i n g b a c k w a r d s i n t h e b u n d l e to the full Board. M R T S O T S I : T h e f u l l B o a r d ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e r e a s o n w h y I k n e w I h a d m a d e t h e e r r o r is b e c a u s e I w a s l o o k i n g f o r t h e w e lc o m e t h a t y o u g a v e w h ic h h a p p e n e d a t th e m a i n B o a r d m e e ti n g a n d t h a t is a t p a g e 3 5 4 . B e c a u s e a t t h e b o t t o m o f 3 5 4 y o u a s th e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d w e lc o m e 20 m e m b e r s t o th e fir s t B o a r d m e e ti n g f o r 2 0 1 5 . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Now the one thing that does happen in this m e e ti n g is t h a t th e B o a r d h a s b e e n g iv e n t h e ir h a n d o v e r r e p o r t s . T h e m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d h a v e b e e n g i v e n th e ir h a n d o v e r r e p o r t s a n d y o u w i ll s e e a t p a g e 3 6 2 t h e r e i s a n i t e m n u m b e r 7 th e r e c o m m i t t e e Page 98 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts . A n d w h a t i s r e c o r d e d i s d ir e c t – b y t h e d ir e c ti o n o f t h e C h a ir m a n a n d m e m b e r s th e c o m m i t t e e h a n d o v e r r e p o r t s fo r t h e B o a r d ’s s u b - c o m m i t t e e s i n c lu d e d in t h e m e e ti n g p a c k w e r e ta k e n a s r e a d a n d n o t e d . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w M r Ts o ts i w e – w e w e r e a b l e t o g e t c o p i e s o f th e h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts t h a t w e r e g i v e n t o t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h o s e i n y o u r b u n d le M M 6 a t p a g e 3 1 8 . M R T S O T S I : A lr i g h t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t c o m m e n c e s a t 3 - 1 - 8 is o n e o f t h e Subcommittee reports. T h i s is th e r e p o r t o f th e I FC a n d w h a t t h e n f o ll o w s a r e v a r io u s o th e r c o m m i t t e e r e p o r ts . Th e o n e t h a t w e w e r e in t e r e s te d i n w a s th e A u d it a n d R is k C o m m i t te e R e p o r t w h ic h y o u w il l fi n d a t p a g e 3 - 6 - 1 . M R T S O T S I : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e u n d e r “ O u ts t a n d i n g I s s u e s ” is th e h e a d i n g t h e r e . U n d e r t h e t h ir d m a jo r b u l le t th e r e is a r e c o r d t h e r e t h a t : “Reportable external 20 ir r e g u l a r it y auditors of d u r in g - i d e n t i fi e d the 3 0 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 i n t e r i m r e s u lt s . by the r e v ie w of T h is m a t te r w a s r e p o r t e d t o a n d d e a l t w i th b y t h e B o a r d . ” Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i t h a t is th e o n ly r e fe r e n c e t h a t w e c o u l d fi n d i n a n y o f t h e s e h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts t o th e TN A C o n tr a c t w h ic h Page 99 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 h a d p r e c i p i t a te d th a t r e p o r t a b le ir r e g u la r i t y. D o y o u k n o w o f a n y o t h e r r e c o r d a l th a t m ig h t h a v e a p p e a r e d i n th e h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts ? MR TSOTSI: M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a f t e r t h e t a b l in g o f t h e s u m m a r y t h a t M a z w a i L e d w a b a d id w a s t h a t th a t d o c u m e n t w o u ld f o r m p a r t o f t h e handover report … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : O n t h is T N A i s s u e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : A n d I a m r e a l ly s u r p r is e d t h a t th e r e is n o e v id e n c e t h a t 10 t h is tr a n s p ir e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: What in fact I do recall was that in tandem with the report t h e i d e a w a s to a v a il t h e m i n u t e s w h e r e t h e s e d is c u s s i o n s w e r e t a k i n g place. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : E s p e c i a ll y t h e th r e e s e t s o f m i n u t e s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : Fr o m t h e ti m e w e s t a r te d t a l k in g a b o u t i t t h a t w a s e n d o f N o v e m b e r. I t h i n k t h e 2 4 t h … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e 2 4 t h . MR TSOTSI: A n d t h e n th e s u b s e q u e n t t w o B o a r d M e e ti n g s o f th e 3 r d a n d th e 8 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: S o th a t t o m e w a s s u p p o s e d t o c o n s t it u t e t h e h a n d o v e r report … Page 100 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Yo u s e e … M R T S O T S I : A n d I th i n k y o u r e c a l l a ls o t h a t t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e A u d i t C o m m i t t e e a ls o i n s is t e d o n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: On that report … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MR TSOTSI: B e i n g p a r t o f t h e - o f th e h a n d o v e r n o t e s , b u t I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir w h a t - w h a t i n f a c t tr a n s p ir e d a t th is … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 MR TSOTSI: Did not happen … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . ( I n t e r v e n e s ) . MR TSOTSI: A n d I m u s t c o n f e s s t o t h a t I w a s n o t a w a r e a t th is ti m e t h a t th is h a d n o t h a p p e n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. I t c e r t a i n l y a p p e a r s fr o m th e r e c o r d s w e h a v e n o t t o h a v e h a p p e n e d , b e c a u s e t h is is t h e A u d i t a n d R is k C o m m i t t e e R e p o r t t h a t w a s p a r t o f t h e b u n d l e o f h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts a n d a s y o u h a v e s e e n . It m a k e s n o r e fe r e n c e t o t h e m in u t e s o f t h e p r e v io u s B o a r d M e e t in g s . N o r e fe r e n c e t o th e m a t t e r th a t t h e H e a d o f A u d i t a n d R is k 20 said must be in the handover report … M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h is th a t t h e f o r m e r B o a r d h a d c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e r e w a s - th is w a s a b a d c o n tr a c t f o r Es k o m . In fact when we tr a v e r s e d it w i t h M r P a m e n s k y, b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r Mr P a m e n s k y i s o n e o f t h e n e w M e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d . R ig h t . C e r t a i n l y h i s r e a d i n g o f t h i s Page 101 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 m a t t e r w a s r e p o r t e d to a n d d e a lt w it h b y th e B o a r d . H e d i d n o t h a v e a c l e a r r e c o l le c ti o n o f h a v in g r e a d t h a t a t th e ti m e , b u t th a t s i g n a ll e d t o h i m th a t t h e m a tt e r h a d b e e n r e s o lv e d . R i g h t . T h e m a tt e r h a s b e e n r e p o r te d to a n d d e a l t w i t h b y t h e B o a r d . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w w o u l d y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t i f y o u r e a d i t? M R T S O T S I : D o n o t f o r g e t I w a s p a r t - p a r ty t o t h i s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MR TSOTSI: So I - I … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n n o t d is a b u s e y o u r s e l f . MR TSOTSI: I cannot - no. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t th i n k s o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , b u t w o u ld y o u s a y i t is f a ir f o r a n e w B o a r d M e m b e r t o r e a d t h is a s n o t r e q u ir in g m o r e o f t h e m ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . I th i n k i t i s n o t f a i r o n t h e n e w B o a r d M e m b e r. C e r t a in ly t h e r e a r e a c o u p le o f o t h e r t h in g s w h ic h I o b s e r v e d a ls o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : I m e a n y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o lu t io n . I 20 m e a n I a c t u a l ly C h a ir b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h e f a c t t h a t th e n e w B o a r d d i d n o t g e t th e l e v e l o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n o n t h i s T N A m a t t e r. A t t h e m e e t i n g t h e la s t B o a r d M e e ti n g t h a t I a t t e n d e d w h i c h w o u l d h a v e b e e n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 9 M a r c h … MR TSOTSI: 19 March. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 5 . Page 102 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : Ye s , b e c a u s e t h e r e - th e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n n o w o n t h e o n t h e T N A m a t t e r a n d t h e r e w a s s o m e v e r y s t r o n g v i e w s th a t c a m e fr o m - fr o m B o a r d M e m b e r s a n d t h e r e w e r e - th e y d i d n o t - y o u k n o w h o l d b a c k t h e ir fe e li n g s a b o u t t h e fa c t c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s v e r y b a d i n r e g a r d t o i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t s h o u l d h a v e g o n e t o th e B o a r d o n - o n th a t m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: Now c o m m u n ic a ti o n when you talk about c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m m a n a g e m e n t t o t h e B o a r d ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h e - t h e … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : P r e c is e l y t h e - th e d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : M s H o f m e y r is t a lk in g a b o u t . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o s e r e s p o n s i b ili t y w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts c o n ta i n e d t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n ? MR TSOTSI: T h i s is th e S e c r e t a r i a t . T h e - t h e S e c r e t a r ia t o f t h e Board. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . T h e r e w e r e o n ly t w o B o a r d M e m b e r s f r o m 20 t h e p r e v i o u s B o a r d w h o c a m e o v e r t o th e n e w B o a r d . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t w a s y o u r s e l f a n d M s M a b u d e . Is t h a t correct? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u ld y o u h a v e a c c e p te d t h e p r o p o s i t io n t h a t Page 103 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d o n e o f th e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w h o came over to the new Board. Yo u h e ld s o m e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e h a n d o v e r r e p o r ts c o r r e c t ly r e f l e c t e d w h a t t h a t m e e t in g o f 8 D e c e m b e r r e q u ir e d t o b e i n c lu d e d . MR TSOTSI: Ye s . Of course. I m e a n t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty r e s t e d w i t h m e , b e c a u s e I a m t h e p e r s o n w h o c h a ir e d t h e B o a r d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : A n d t h e S e c r e ta r i a t h a d e s s e n ti a l ly … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 M R T S O T S I : In - in c o n t e n t r e p o r t s t o - to m e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : As t h e C h a ir m a n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: F o r t h e d e r e li c ti o n o f d u ty I s u p p o s e th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty r e s ts w i t h m e , b u t I c e r t a i n ly w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d , b e c a u s e n o b o d y s a i d to m e th a t i n f o r m a ti o n w a s n o t tr a n s m i tt e d a s i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n tr a n s m i t te d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : S o I - I w a s i n th e d a r k a s f a r a s th a t i s c o n c e r n e d . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y - c a n I a s k - d i d y o u n o t p u t th e T N A C o n tr a c t o n t h e a g e n d a f o r th e m e e ti n g o n 1 6 J a n u a r y ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir, I d o n o t e x a c t ly r e c a l l, b u t h o w e v e r th e - t h e s e m e e ti n g s w e r e w h a t w e c a l l s p e c i a l m e e ti n g s o r e x tr a o r d in a r y B o a r d M e e ti n g s . T h e id e a w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o r a is e t h is m a t te r a t th e o r d i n a r y B o a r d M e e ti n g w h ic h w o u l d h a v e t a k e n p la c e - t h e f ir s t Page 104 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 o r d i n a r y B o a r d o r s c h e d u l e d B o a r d M e e t i n g w a s d u e to t a k e p la c e o n 2 6 F e b r u a r y, b u t a f t e r t h i s m e e ti n g I r e c a ll t h a t w e a ll o f a s u d d e n w o k e u p to th e f a c t t h a t th is T N A m a t t e r h a s n o t b e e n r a is e d - h a s n o t b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d u n f o r t u n a te ly t h is h a p p e n e d a f t e r th is m e e ti n g h a d occurred. S o t h e r e c o u l d h a v e b e e n a p o s s i b i li ty f o r u s t o h a v e r a is e d t h is is s u e a t th is f ir s t B o a r d M e e ti n g . N o t w i t h s ta n d i n g th e f a c t t h a t i t w a s n o t i n t h e a g e n d a o r ig i n a ll y. T h is m e e t in g w a s r e q u e s te d b y th e E x e c u t iv e , b e c a u s e th e y w a n t e d to a p p r a i s e t h e n e w B o a r d a s e a r ly a s 10 p o s s i b le a b o u t th e p r o b le m s th a t w e r e - t h e c o m p a n y w a s e x p e r i e n c i n g . P a r t ic u l a r l y th e is s u e s a r o u n d t h e g o in g c o n c e r n i n g w h i c h w a s r e a l ly th e t o p o f m in d a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e . In other words the fi n a n c i a l s t r e s s th a t th e - t h e c o m p a n y w a s - w a s e x p e r i e n c i n g . S o in a l l li k e li h o o d th e i d e a t h a t t h i s m a t t e r w i t h t h e T N A d id n o t m a k e i t t o t h is B o a r d M e e t i n g . I t h i n k w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f w h a t w a s r e a l ly liv in g i n t h e m i n d s o f - o f t h e B o a r d a t t h e t i m e a n d o f m a n a g e m e n t . H e n c e a f t e r t h is m e e t in g i t w a s th e n t h a t w e r e a l is e d th a t l o o k t h e r e i s a p r o b l e m . W e n e e d to h a v e d o n e s o m e t h in g a b o u t t h i s . D o n o t f o r g e t 20 a ls o t h e r e w a s t h e r e q u ir e m e n t b y t h e A u d i t A u t h o r i ty o f t h e 3 0 d a y s w i t h i n w h ic h w e h a v e to r e s p o n d a s t o w h a t w e h a v e d o n e a b o u t th e ir r e g u l a r i ty. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a d r e c e i v e d a n e x t e n s i o n o f t h a t 3 0 d a y s though. Had you not in the previous year? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . Th a t i s r i g h t . Ye s . Page 105 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But I - correct me if I am wrong. I - I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e u r g e n c y in t h e m a t t e r. Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R T S O T S I : T h e r e w a s s o m e u r g e n c y i n t h e m a t t e r. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. H m , b u t n o t i n e n o u g h to p u t i t o n th e agenda on 16 January? M R T S O T S I : I w o u l d n o t s a y i t w a s a b u r n in g p l a t f o r m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : Yo u k n o w. I t w a s n o t u p th e r e in te r ms o f th e p r i o r i t ie s a t 10 t h a t ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n w h y M r Ts o ts i tr y t o r e s o l v e t h e i s s u e b y r o u n d r o b in r e s o lu t io n o n 3 Fe b r u a r y t h e n ? M R T S O T S I : T h e r e w e r e a c o u p l e o f th i n g s t h a t w e r e c o n s id e r e d i n - i n r e s p e c t o f th is d e c is io n - t h e r o u n d r o b i n d e c is i o n . O n e o f t h e m is o n e I h a v e ju s t m e n t io n e d n o w. W e w e r e c o m i n g C h a ir t o t h e e n d o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r o f th e c o m p a n y a n d y o u r e c a l l th a t t h e in t e r i m - in t e r i m fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts h a d i n c l u d e d t h is ir r e g u l a r i ty i n t h e s t a t e m e n ts a n d o n t o p o f t h a t th e r e w a s a l s o th e g o in g c o n c e r n p r o b le m t h a t w e w e r e faced with. 20 S o t h e r e w a s a p o s i ti o n t h a t w a s ta k e n b y m a n a g e m e n t to s a y lo o k w e n e e d to r e s o lv e o n t h is ir r e g u l a r i ty is s u e a n d p a r t o f t h a t h a s t o d o w i th w h a t d e c i s i o n t h e B o a r d w il l ta k e i n r e s p e c t o f th e a d v ic e t h a t i t s o u g h t fr o m t h e la w fi r m a n d i n t e r m s o f w h a t th e T - T - t h e S N G ( in d is ti n c t) h a d c o m e u p - S N G R e p o r t h a d c o m e u p w i t h . S o th e r e w a s t h a t a s p e c t . Th e r e w a s a ls o a n a s p e c t o f Page 106 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 p r e s s u r e th a t m a n a g e m e n t w a s s a y i n g t h e y w e r e r e c e i v i n g fr o m t h e T N A , b e c a u s e o f l a c k o f p a y m e n t . T h e r e h a d b e e n - I th in k - a n i n v o ic e t h a t w a s - b e e n c a r r ie d o v e r f r o m t h e p r e v io u s y e a r a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e e x p e r i e n c i n g s o m e p e r fo r m a n c e i s s u e s a r o u n d t h e c o n tr a c t fr o m t h e TNA. S o th o s e w e r e s o m e o f t h e c o n s id e r a ti o n s th a t w e r e i n - i n m i n d a t t h e ti m e w h e n w e t h o u g h t lo o k w e - w e n e e d t o d o s o m e t h i n g a b o u t r e s o lv in g th is - t h is c o n tr a c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 M r Ts o ts i , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t a r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n fo r a v e r y n e w B o a r d - o f w h i c h I t h in k i t w a s e ig h t m e m b e r s w e r e n e w. Is n o t a n id e a l w a y i n w h ic h t o d e b a t e a n is s u e o r a t l e a s t b r i n g t h e m u p t o s p e e d w i th w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d in r e l a ti o n to th e m a t t e r o n w h ic h t h e ir d e c is i o n is r e q u ir e d ? M R T S O T S I : I d o h a v e - i f I m a y c a l l i t - s y m p a t h y y o u k n o w fo r - f o r s o m e o n e w h o is n e w i n th e B o a r d a n d h a s t o d e a l w it h a n is s u e lik e t h a t w i t h a r o u n d r o b in . N o tw i th s t a n d i n g t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n f a m i li a r w i t h t h e r o u n d r o b i n s y s te m i n a n y c a s e , b u t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m , b u t t h e r o u n d … MR TSOTSI: But … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . M R T S O T S I : Yo u k n o w I - I a m s a y i n g t h i s b e c a u s e I s u b s e q u e n t ly g o t t h a t id e a - t h a t f e e l i n g a t t h i s m e e t i n g o f 1 9 M a r c h w h e r e m e m b e r s w e r e e x p r e s s i n g th e ir d i s q u i e t a b o u t t h e w a y i n f o r m a ti o n w a s n o t a v a i la b le t o t h e m t o - t o b e a b l e t o d o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Page 107 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : W h a t t h e y w o u l d o r d i n a r i ly d o w h a t t h e y w o u l d o r d i n a r i ly d o in tr y i n g t o d e c i d e w h e r e - w h a t - h o w t o v i e w t h is - th is c o n t r a c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Yo u s e e M r Ts o ts i w h e n w e in t e r r o g a t e th e r e a s o n fo r u s in g t h e r o u n d r o b i n p r o c e s s . I t h i n k it i s a l s o r e l e v a n t t o p l a c e i n c o n te x t th a t t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r m e e t i n g o f th e B o a r d o n 1 6 F e b r u a r y. J u s t - j u s t l e s s t h a n t w o w e e k s l a te r t h a n th e d a t e o n w h ic h t h e r o u n d r o b in w a s c ir c u la t e d a n d s o t o p u t t o y o u i n fa ir n e s s t h a t th e - t h e is s u e th a t a r is e s i s t o t h e e x t e n t th a t i t w a s a p r e s s i n g is s u e . T h e o p p o r t u n i ty o f th e fu ll B o a r d M e e ti n g o n 1 8 J a n u a r y w a s 10 n o t u t il is e d fo r t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t n e e d e d t o t a k e p l a c e . There was a n o t h e r m e e ti n g t o b e h e l d a m o n th l a t e r o n 1 6 Fe b r u a r y. T h a t m e e ti n g w a s a ls o n o t u s e d p r o p e r ly t o d e b a t e a n d d i s c u s s t h e i s s u e s , b u t in s t e a d i n th e m i d d l e o n 3 F e b r u a r y s o m e o n e t a k e s a d e c i s i o n t h a t th e r ig h t w a y t o d e a l w it h t h is is s u e is b y r o u n d r o b in . Did you take that d e c is i o n ? MR TSOTSI: W i th t h e r o u n d r o b i n w h a t h a p p e n s is t h a t m a n a g e m e n t n o r m a l ly c o m e t o t h e B o a r d v i a th e C h a i r ma n t o r a i s e a n is s u e w i t h they feel needs to be dealt with. 20 S o in t h i s in s t a n c e t h e y c a m e to b o a r d t h a t is t h e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e a n d in d ic a t e d t h a t t h is m a t t e r h a s d r a g g e d o n a n d n e e d s to b e d e a l t w i t h a n d s o th e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t w e s h o u l d g o o n a r o u n d r o b i n to g e t t h i s m a t t e r d o n e . T h e n w a s p u t o n t h e ta b le a n d I s a id I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t . I th i n k i t i s s o m e th in g th a t c a n b e d o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Page 108 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : O n t h e p r o v is o t h a t - y o u k n o w - t h e a d e q u a t e i n f o r m a ti o n is m a d e a v a i l a b l e t o m e m b e r s . S o th e y c a n u n d e r s t a n d a n d b e a b l e t o m a k e th e a p p r o p r i a te d e c is i o n s r e g a r d i n g t h e is s u e . So yes I had no d i ff ic u l ty w i t h th e r o u n d r o b in b e i n g in s ti t u t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o to th e r o u n d r o b in r e s o l u ti o n t h a t w a s c ir c u l a t e d . Yo u w i ll fi n d i t i n y o u r b u n d l e - M M 6 - a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 4 . MR TSOTSI: I a m g o i n g to a s k a s to w h i c h o n e is m y b u n d l e . T h e r e a r e s o m a n y o f th e m a r o u n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i s e . W e a r e n o w i n E X H I B I T M M 6 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e th a t h a s t h a t r e p o r t … ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a ll y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s a m e o n e a s - ja . S a m e o n e th a t h a s g o t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d t h e - i n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e a r e a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 C h a ir, I h o p e I a m c o r r e c t . Have you got an email at page 2-3-4? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I h a v e g o t - ja . I t is a n e m a i l . J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f 3 F e b r u a r y ? CHAIRPERSON: Let me - yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ex c e ll e n t . M r Ts o t s i d o y o u h a v e t h a t p a g e . MR TSOTSI: 2-3-4. Page 109 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w t h is is t h e e m a il t h a t t h e c o m p a n y Secretary sent out on 3 February to the Members of the new Board and the email reads: “ D e a r B o a r d M e m b e r s , t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d has r e q u e s te d me d o c u m e n ts to y o u . to fo r w a r d th e attached Th e c o n t e n t s o f w h i c h i s s e l f - e x p la n a to r y. ” He goes on and says: “ I w il l s e n d th e p a s s w o r d t o o p e n t h e r e p o r t b y S M S tomorrow morning.” 10 Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d y o u i n s tr u c t t h e C o m p a n y S e c r e ta r y a s t o s e n d i n g t h is o u t a n d to w h a t to a t ta c h ? MR TSOTSI: W e ll I d o n o t li t e r a l ly i n s tr u c t h i m , b u t t h a t is j u s t process. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b e c a u s e h e s a y s y o u h a v e r e q u e s t e d h i m 20 t o fo r w a r d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . S o w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d i n t h e s e l e c ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t a c c o m p a n i e d t h e r e s o l u ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : N o . I w o u l d n o t b e i n v o lv e d in t h e p r o c e s s o f s e l e c ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t s , b u t i n t e r m s o f in d ic a t i n g w h a t s h o u l d b e in t h e r o u n d r o b i n . Ye s . I w o u l d b e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I w il l c o m e b a c k t o t h a t in a m o m e n t . Page 110 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 L e t u s g o to p a g e s 2 - 3 - 6 a n d 2 - 3 - 7 . A t 2 - 3 - 6 is a d o c u m e n t e n t i tl e d “ S u m m a r y o f Fa c ts ” . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a l l t h i s d o c u m e n t ? I t g o e s o v e r t w o - o v e r tw o p a g e s . MR TSOTSI: T h is i s t h e - o n e o f th e a t t a c h m e n t s o f t h e r o u n d r o b i n . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w i ll s e e a t t h e b o t to m a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 7 t h e r e is a p l a c e w h e r e i t c a n b e s ig n e d a n d y o u r n a m e is i n c l u d e d t h e r e 10 and beneath your name is your recorded: “ W h o h e r e b y r e p r e s e n ts th a t t h e a b o v e i n f o r m a ti o n is c o r r e c t . ” Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Had you c o n te n te d yourself th a t t h is in f o r m a ti o n w a s c o r r e c t b e fo r e i t w a s s e n t o u t ? M R T S O T S I : C h a ir m a n I m u s t - I m u s t c o n f e s s t h a t t h is r o u n d r o b i n I d i d n o t p e r u s e t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t I c a n s a y c o m f o r t a b ly t h a t a l l in f o r m a ti o n i s c o r r e c t. 20 S u b s e q u e n tl y I d is c o v e r e d t h e r e w e r e s o m e e r r o r s in it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u - d i d y o u s ig n i t ? M R T S O T S I : I s i g n e d i t . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s ig n - o h . O k a y. M R T S O T S I : I c e r ta in ly s i g n e d i t . Page 111 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. H m . MR TSOTSI: I t h in k w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g fo r m e c e r t a i n l y w a s th a t , b e c a u s e I k n e w a l l t h e f a c ts a n d I k n e w a l l th e i n f o r m a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: I d id n o t s c r u t i n is e th e r o u n d r o b i n . I mean there were m is t a k e s w h ic h w e r e q u i te g l a r i n g w h ic h w h e n I l o o k e d - l o o k e d a t th e m s u b s e q u e n t ly I r e a l is e d t h a t t h e y s h o u l d n o t h a v e o c c u r r e d , b u t t h e y d id occur and I assigned the document with those errors in it simply b e c a u s e I d id n o t f o c u s t o o m u c h o n t h e c o n te n t o f i t a n d t h e r e a s o n 10 w a s b e c a u s e I w a s v e r y f a m il ia r w i th w h a t s h o u l d b e s e n t o u t t o m e m b e r s a n d w h a t h a d a c t u a ll y o c c u r r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M r Ts o ts i , is t h a t n o t m o r e o f a r e a s o n to c h e c k t h a t w h a t w a s g o i n g o u t to t h e m w a s a c c u r a te ly ? M R T S O T S I : N o , n o . U n d e r s t a n d m e . By t h e t i m e I r e a li s e d th a t t h e r e w e r e t h e s e e r r o r s i t w a s m u c h - m u c h la t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n a b o u t d i d y o u r e a l is e t h a t t h e r e w e r e t h e errors? M R T S O T S I : T h i s w a s a ti m e w h e n I r e c a ll o n e o f t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s a s k in g - I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t w a s M s K le i n o r I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r 20 w h o o f t h e m - a s k i n g m e f o r c l a r i f ic a t i o n a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t o d o w it h t h e - th is r e s o l u ti o n . S o I l o o k e d a t i t a n d I r e a l is e d t h a t th e r e w a s a m is t a k e h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u … ? M R T S O T S I : I th in k i t h a d to d o w i t h w h e t h e r C h o s e C h o e u w a s s ti ll i n t h e c o m p a n y o r n o t . I t h i n k t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e t h in g s I s e e . I d o n o t Page 112 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 r e m e m b e r w h o i t w a s , b u t o n e o f th e B o a r d M e m b e r s w a s n o t - s e e m e d t o b e c o n f u s e d a b o u t t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r o u n d r o b i n i n d ic a te s th a t th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e - t h e p a r ti e s h e r e w e r e n o l o n g e r i n t h e - in t h e c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . D o y o u r e c a ll w h e n t h a t f e e d b a c k c a m e t o you? M R T S O T S I : N o . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. I d o n o t … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h o r t ly a ft e r t h e r o u n d r o b i n ? M R T S O T S I : I t w a s s h o r tl y a f te r t h e - t h is d o c u m e n t w a s c i r c u l a te d . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t a k e to c o r r e c t th e e r r o r s in t h e d o c u m e n t ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t w a s a f t e r t h e r o u n d r o b i n h a d - h a d b e e n c ir c u la t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: T h is w a s a f t e r t h e r e s p o n s e s h a d c o m e b a c k a n d i t w a s done. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o … MR TSOTSI: 20 S o I d id n o t - a t t h e t i m e w h e n I w a s in f o r m e d I d id n o t i m m e d i a t e ly g o t o th e d o c u m e n t . I j u s t s i m p ly a n s w e r e d t h a t in d iv i d u a l t o s a y n o . T h e p e r s o n y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d w i t h is p a r t - is s t il l p a r t o f t h e b u s i n e s s . H e is i n th e - i n th e c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: B u t i t w a s o n ly a f te r w a r d s w h e n I t h e n t o o k th e t i m e to lo o k a t t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d I r e a l is e d t h a t … Page 113 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : T h a t is w h e r e th e c o n f u s i o n c a m e fr o m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So when did you take the time to look at the d o c u m e n t a n d r e a li s e t h a t t h e r e w e r e e r r o r s in it ? MR TSOTSI: T h is w a s w h e n t h e r e s p o n s e s f o r t h e r o u n d r o b i n h a d c o m e in … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : Fr o m t h e v a r i o u s B o a r d M e m b e r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m , a n d b e fo r e t h e m e e t in g o n 1 9 M a r c h ? 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . O h . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : I t w a s b e f o r e th e m e e ti n g o f 1 9 M a r c h . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I t h in k o n o u r r e c o r d o f th e r e s p o n s e s t h e l a s t r e s p o n s e c a m e i n o n 1 6 F e b r u a r y. S o s o m e w h e r e in F e b r u a r y s t il l. M R T S O T S I : S o m e w h e r e in F e b r u a r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d t h a t b e f a ir ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w h e n i t b e c a m e k n o w n to y o u d i d y o u 20 think it was necessary to go back to Board Members who had made w h o h a d c a s t t h e ir v o te s o n a s u m m a r y o f f a c t s t h a t w a s f a l s e to a l e r t t h e m t o th o s e e r r o r s ? MR TSOTSI: No. My e x p e c ta t io n w a s th a t w e w o u ld d e a l w i t h t h o s e p a r t ic u l a r is s u e s w h e n w e s it a t t h e m e e t i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n 1 9 F e b r u a r y ? Page 114 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : W h e n t h e n e x t m e e t in g w o u l d h a v e b e e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: On 19 March. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . D i d y o u r a is e th e e r r o r s a t t h a t m e e t in g ? M R T S O T S I : I d o n o t r e c a l l s p e c i f ic a l ly w h e t h e r I r a i s e d t h e e r r o r s a t t h a t m e e ti n g , b u t t h e r e w e r e s o m e q u e s ti o n s w h ic h c a m e a l o n g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 M R T S O T S I : A n d I r e s p o n d e d t o s o m e o f t h e m . I r e m e m b e r m a k in g a n a p o lo g y t o s o m e o f t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s a b o u t s o m e t h in g . I cannot r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y w h a t i t w a s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : B u t I s u s p e c t i t h a d t o d o w i t h t h e fa c t t h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s n o t a s i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Yo u - y o u s e e C h a ir a c tu a lly l a s t n i g h t a t 2 0 p a s t s e v e n w e r e c e i v e d a s ta t e m e n t fr o m M s N a i d o o w h o w a s o n e o f t h e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d a t t h e ti m e a n d w h o h a d r e c e iv e d a R u le 3 . 3 N o t ic e c o n s e q u e n t u p o n M r Ts o ts i ’s t e s t i m o n y. 20 A m o n g th e d o c u m e n ts a tt a c h e d t o h e r s t a te m e n t is a tr a n s c r ip t th a t s h e m a d e o f t h e d is c u s s io n ; a t t h e m e e ti n g o f 1 9 M a r c h a n d s h e h a s f u r n is h e d t h a t t o t h e C o m m is s i o n . B e t w e e n 2 0 p a s t s e v e n l a s t n ig h t a n d t h i s m o r n i n g s e a s k e d o u r in v e s ti g a t o r s t o g o b a c k a n d g e t th e r e c o r d i n g . It has not been o ffic i a l ly tr a n s c r i b e d , b u t a t l e a s t to s it w it h h e r tr a n s c r i p t i o n a n d t h e Page 115 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 r e c o r d i n g t o t e s t i f i t i s i n th e r e a l m o f a c c u r a c y a n d w e h a v e r e c e i v e d c o n fir m a t io n to d a y t h a t i t is . I a m g o i n g t o t a k e M r Ts o ts i to t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e , b u t w h a t i s c le a r fr o m th e d is c u s s i o n a t t h e m e e ti n g is w h e n t h e s e i s s u e s a r e r a i s e d t h e r e is a p o i n t in th e d is c u s s i o n w h e r e M r N g u b a n e s a y s i n a sense; “ I d o n o t k n o w w h y w e d e b a ti n g a l l o f t h is . v o t e h a s b e e n c a s t. The Th e r e s o l u t i o n h a s p a s s e d , b e c a u s e y o u a c h i e v e d th e 7 5 p e r c e n t v o t e o n t h e r e s o l u ti o n . ” 10 A r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t ? MR TSOTSI: I a m a w a r e - I a m a w a r e o f t h e d i s c u s s io n - o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n p e r t a i n i n g t o M r N g u b a n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . M R T S O T S I : B u t t h e n u m b e r s a t t h e ti m e I p r o b a b l y w a s n o t - w a s n o t aware. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. W e w i ll - w e w i ll c o m e t o t h e tr a n s c r ip t a s w e h a v e i t o f th a t m e e t i n g , b u t a t t h e m o m e n t w h a t I a m in t e r e s te d i n i s y o u - a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e - h a d b e e n a l e r te d 20 t o th e f a c t s i n c e t h is s t a t e m e n t o f fa c t s w e n t o u t a n d p r i o r t o 1 9 M a r c h m e e ti n g t h a t t h is d i d n o t c o r r e c t ly r e f l e c t t h e f a c ts r e l a t e d t o t h e T N A C o n tr a c t . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R T S O T S I : T h e r e w e r e e r r o r s o f o m is s io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f o m is s i o n ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . Page 116 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . W e ll l e t u s g o t o w h a t is in fa c t s t a te d h e r e , b e c a u s e i n th e f o u r t h li n e - w e a r e a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 6 . Th e f o u r th li n e t h e r e - w e ll a t l e a s t t h e f o u r th p a r a g r a p h s a y s : “ T h e ( i n d is t in c t ) t h e r e p o r t a t a s p e c i a l m e e ti n g … ” T h a t i s a r e f e r e n c e to t h e S N G R e p o r t t h a t h a d b e e n s o u g h t and obtained. It says: “ T h e ( 2 7 : 4 8 ) th e r e p o r t a t th e s p e c ia l m e e t in g o f t h e Board held on 8 December 2014.” T h a t is n o t c o r r e c t . I s i t ? 10 M R T S O T S I : A b s o l u t e ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No. I t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o th e B o a r d o n 2 4 N o v e m b e r. Wa s i t n o t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . S o t h a t is th e fi r s t o f t h e e r r o r s a s w e have picked them up. The second appears on the same page, because it is th a t fir s t b u ll e t th a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o e a r l ie r. It s a y s : “ T h e p a r t ie s t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h i s m a t t e r a r e n o lo n g e r w it h in t h is s p h e r e o f Es k o m ’s o p e r a ti o n s . ” T h a t is fa ls e t o o . Is i t n o t? 20 M R T S O T S I : A b s o l u t e ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. W h o w a s s ti ll w i t h i n t h e s p h e r e o f E s k o m ’s o p e r a ti o n s ? MR TSOTSI: Mr Chose … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: Choeu. Page 117 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m a n d th e n I h a d d i ffi c u l ty w i th th is p a r a g r a p h y o u m ig h t r e c a l l i t fr o m M r P a m e n s k y ’s e v id e n c e , b e c a u s e i n th a t fir s t s e n te n c e i t is t a l k i n g a b o u t p a r ti e s w h ic h i t is fa ir t o a s s u m e i s a r e fe r e n c e t o Mr M a t ji la a n d Mr C h o e u , b u t t h e n t h e - y o u s e e - t h e n y o u lo s e a l l u n d e r s ta n d i n g , b e c a u s e t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e s a y s : “ T h i s e m a n a te s fr o m t h e r o t a t i o n o f a fo r m e r B o a r d w h ic h to o k e ff e c t o n 11 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a p e r m a n e n t C h ie f E x e c u t iv e . ” W h e n y o u r e a d t h a t s e n t e n c e i t a p p e a r s t h a t w e a r e o n ly t a l k i n g a b o u t 10 M r M a tji l a . D o e s i t n o t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e i t ’s o n ly M r M a t j il a in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h th e r o ta t io n o f t h e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e i m p a c t is n ’ t i t ? MR TSOTSI: Correct yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i n t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e t h e p a r t i e s a g a in , y o u ’r e n o t c l e a r w h o th e y a r e , in v o lv e d , h a d d iv e r g e n t v i e w s o n t h e s p e c i fic a s p e c ts o f th e m a t t e r a n d a s s u c h s c a r c e r e s o u r c e i t w il l h a v e to b e d e p l o y e d t o b r in g t h e s e c o n te n ti o u s m a t t e r s t o fi n a l it y. W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n M r Ts o ts i ? 20 MR TSOTSI: I’ m a fr a i d i t d o e s n ’t m a k e s e n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: No. I f th e p a r t i e s a r e t h e p a r t i e s t h e y t a l k a b o u t i n t h e fir s t li n e t h e n i t o b v i o u s l y d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e t o y o u s i tt i n g h e r e d e s p i te a ll y o u r b a c k g r o u n d , I w o n d e r h o w m u c h s e n s e i t m a d e t o t h e Page 118 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 n e w m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d th a t h a d t o v o te o n it ? L e t ’s g o t o t h e s e c o n d b u l l e t ; c o n s i d e r i n g t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s m a d e b y th e t h e n in t e r i m C h i e f E x e c u ti v e . Th e r e e x is ts a d i ff e r e n c e o f i n t e r p r e ta t io n r e g a r d i n g t h e p r o v is io n s o f t h e c o m p a n y ’s d e le g a ti o n th a t n e e d s t o b e r e v i e w e d a n d c l a r i fi e d fu r t h e r i n o r d e r to c lo s e a n y g a p s w h i c h m a y b e p r e s e n t, do you see that? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t a t t h e ti m e t h a t L e d w a b a M z w a i , t h e l a w y e r s a p p o in t e d t o lo o k a t t h e le g a l a s p e c ts o f 10 t h is , w e r e a s k e d f o r t h e ir v i e w o n M r M a t jil a in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n of a u t h o r i ty. They had no d i ffi c u l ty r e j e c ti n g h is in t e r p r e t a ti o n a n d s a y in g t h a t th is w a s c l e a r ly a s p o n s o r s h i p a n d h is a tt e m p ts t o j u s ti fy i t a s a n i n v e s t m e n t w e r e u n p e r s u a s iv e , a r e y o u aware of that? MR TSOTSI: Ye s I a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y d i d y o u i n c lu d e i n b u ll e t th a t th e r e w a s s t il l a d i ffe r e n c e o f in t e r p r e ta t io n , w h y n o t r e fl e c t t h e la w y e r s a p p o i n t e d b y E s k o m t o l o o k i n to t h e m a t t e r h a v e c o n c l u d e d th a t t h e r e w a s n o m e r i t i n M r M a tj il a ’s s u g g e s t io n th a t th is w a s a n i n v e s t m e n t? 20 MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I h a v e – i f I w a s t o b e – l e t’s s u p p o s e I w a s o n e w h o w a n t e d to in c l u d e t h i s s e n t e n c e I w o u l d n o t c o n s tr u c t i t i n t h is w a y, b e c a u s e i t i s c o n f u s in g , b u t I w o u l d i n d ic a te t h a t o n t h e o n e h a n d t h e v ie w o f t h e l a w y e r s is t h e r e is n o m e r i t i n w h a t M r M a t ji la is c o n te n d i n g . O n t h e o t h e r t h e m a t t e r h a s n o t b e e n te s t e d in a n y k i n d o f e n v ir o n m e n t , p a r tic u la r ly t h a t M r M a tj il a d id n ’ t h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o Page 119 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 r e p r e s e n t h i m s e l f o n th is is s u e . S o I t h in k I w o u ld h a v e d e a l t w i t h i t i n t h a t w a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a t j il a h a d m a d e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s th o u g h o n t h e is s u e h a d n ’ t h e ? MR TSOTSI: N o t to t h e B o a r d , w e ll h e h a d m a d e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n i n w r i t in g b u t t h e id e a w a s t h a t h e n e e d e d t o s u b s t a n t ia t e h i m s e l f. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: T h a t ’s t h e r e a s o n w h y h e w a s n o t a b l e t o d o t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 W e ll h e h a d r e s i g n e d h a d n ’ t h e ? B u t y o u – b e tw e e n th e 3 r d a n d 8 t h , r e m e m b e r t h o s e t w o m e e ti n g s a t th e e n d o f la s t y e a r, y o u e n d o n th e 3 r d s a y i n g w e h a v e g o t t o e n s u r e t h e b e s t v a lu e i n t h is c o n tr a c t a n d t h e v ie w o f t h e B o a r d is th e r e is n ’ t b u t w e n e e d t o h e a r f r o m M r M a t ji la . T h e B o a r d g o t Mr M a tj il a ’s r e p r e s e n ta t io n s o n th e 5 t h o f D e c e m b e r a n d s o o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r th e B o a r d a g r e e s t h e r e i s n o v a l u e i n t h is c o n tr a c t a n d t h e y w a n t th a t r e fl e c t e d i n t h e h a n d o v e r r e p o r t f o r t h e n e x t y e a r. Do y o u r e c a ll t h o s e f a c ts ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o M r M a d j il a h a d b e e n h e a r d o n t h is t o p ic h a d n ’ t h e ? 20 MR TSOTSI: W e ll h e h a d n o t b e e n h e a r d , h e h a d o n ly b e e n represented. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g ie s , t h a t ’s l a w y e r s p e a k f o r h e h a d m a d e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i n w r i t in g , h a d h e n o t ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s t h a t is a f a c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. Page 120 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 CHAIRPERSON: I guess he may not have been heard but he had been read. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed, a far more accurate way to put the p r o p o s i ti o n , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. MR TSOTSI: I a m n o t a la w y e r C h a ir m a n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Of course. M r Ts o ts i y o u s a i d i f y o u h a d c o n s tr u c t e d t h i s b u l l e t y o u w o u l d h a v e f r a m e d i t d i ff e r e n t ly, w h o d i d c o n s tr u c t i t i f y o u d id n o t, w h o w r o te t h i s d o c u m e n t ? MR TSOTSI: 10 T h is d o c u m e n t w a s p r e p a r e d b y t h e n S e c r e t a r i a t . I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir w h e t h e r t h e – I s h o u ld s a y a n y th in g a b o u t t h e w a y t h e B o a r d o p e r a t e s a n d t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u c a n i f t h a t m ig h t e x p l a i n s o m e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t n o t k n o w h o w t h e B o a r d u s e d to o p e r a t e w o u ld n o t u n d e r s t a n d . MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o i t j u s t d e p e n d s i f t h e r e is s o m e t h in g t h a t i n t e r m s o f a n s w e r i n g t h e q u e s ti o n o r a n y o f t h e q u e s ti o n s w h e r e y o u t h i n k th a t e x p l a i n in g , t a k i n g s o m e t i m e to e x p l a i n h o w t h e B o a r d o p e r a t e d w o u l d t h r o w l i g h t t h a t ’s fi n e . 20 MR TSOTSI: I th in k I s h o u l d C h a ir b e c a u s e I n o ti c e th a t M s H o f m e y r h a s a s k e d m e a s i m i l a r q u e s ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Ye s , n o , n o d o s h a r e t h a t w i th u s . W o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t I w o u l d b e e x p e c t e d t o b e i n v o lv e d . W h a t h a p p e n s is t h e r e is a c le a r d e l e g a ti o n o f a u th o r i ty i n t e r m s o f h o w t h e s e c r e t a r i a t s h o u ld f u n c ti o n v is - a - v is th e s e r v ic e i t p r o v i d e s to Page 121 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h e B o a r d , a n d w h a t h a p p e n s i s th a t d o c u m e n ts w h ic h a r e m e a n t f o r t h e B o a r d a r e g e n e r a te d a t t h e s e c r e t a r i a t a n d w h e n t h o s e d o c u m e n ts h a v e n o w g o t t o b e d e a l t w i t h b y t h e B o a r d t h e h e a d o f t h e S e c r e t a r ia t w o u ld c o m e t o m e a n d p r e s e n t th o s e d o c u m e n t s t o s a y C h a ir m a n t h e s e a r e t h e t h in g s th a t w e h a v e p u t t o g e t h e r, b e t h e m i n u t e s o r th is k i n d o f d o c u m e n t e tc e t e r a , a n d w e w il l s i t a n d a g r e e t h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts a r e in o r d e r o r t h e y a r e n o t i n o r d e r. S o i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g th a t is n o t s a t is fa c t o r y o r s o m e t h i n g is a m e s s w e w o u ld t h e n s a y g o b a c k a n d d e a l w i t h i t a n d e it h e r c o r r e c t o r 10 w h a t e v e r. If i t m e a n s g o i n g b a c k i n t o t h e o r g a n i s a t io n to g e t m o r e in f o r m a ti o n o r w h a t e v e r y o u n e e d to do you do th a t , b u t th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w ill c o m e b a c k to m e a n d th e n w e w i ll a g a i n l o o k a t it , a n d s a y r ig h t l e t ’s p r o c e e d o n th is b a s is . N o w in t h i s i n s t a n c e w e d i d n ’ t d o a p r o p e r jo b , q u it e c l e a r ly, s o w e v e t t e d d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e d i d n o t p e r u s e c a r e fu ll y e n o u g h a n d h e n c e t h e s e d o c u m e n ts g o t in t o t h e B o a r d s y s t e m a n d s h o u ld n o t h a v e g o t t e n in t o th e B o a r d s y s t e m in t h e m a n n e r t h e y a r e i n n o w. S o i n e s s e n c e I d o n ’ t g e t i n v o lv e d in t h e a c t u a l w r i ti n g , I m a y g e t i n v o lv e d i n fo r m u l a ti o n o f s o m e th i n g d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t i t i s . 20 If it is n o t t h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s ty p e t h i n g s , i f it ’s a le t t e r w h ic h h a s t o g o a b o u t y o u k n o w . . . [i n d is t in c t] in S o w e to o r s o m e th in g lik e th a t fo r e x a m p l e t h e n I w o u ld h a v e to b e i n v o l v e d d ir e c t ly i n t h e c o n s tr u c t i o n o f t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d o c u m e n t , e s p e c i a l ly d o c u m e n ts t h a t g o t o t h e p u b l ic domain. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o t s i t h a n k y o u f o r y o u th a t , a n d in Page 122 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 f a ir n e s s t o y o u n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e b a c k g r o u n d th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n a m o m e n t a g o I d o n ’t ta k e y o u i n y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e s h ir k i n g fr o m y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s th e s i g n a t o r y o f t h is d o c u m e n t t o h a v e r e p r e s e n t e d t h a t th e i n f o r m a ti o n w a s c o r r e c t . Yo u s e e a t th e b o t to m i t s a y s y o u a r e i n a s e n s e c o n f ir m i n g t h a t t h e i n fo r m a t i o n a b o v e i s c o r r e c t , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Ye s s o th e n I w o u ld li k e t o g o t o t h e p o i n t a f t e r t h e b u ll e t o n p a g e 2 3 7 , b e c a u s e t h is i s t h e o n e t h a t p r o b a b l y r e p r e s e n ts the most egregious m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e p o s i t io n b e c a u s e w h a t ’s r e c o r d e d t h e r e is t h e B o a r d r e c o g n is e s t h a t t h e r e i s v a l u e i n p l a t f o r ms t h a t e n a b l e E s k o m t o in t e r a c t w i t h th e p u b li c t o c o m m u n ic a te a n d g a r n e r s u p p o r t f o r th e w o r k th a t i t is d o i n g to e n s u r e t h a t S o u th A fr ic a h a s s u ff ic i e n t e n e r g y. I n t h i s r e g a r d th e c o n t r a c t p r o v id e s a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r Es k o m t o a c h ie v e t h e f o r e s a i d o b je c t iv e . O k a y, i f w e c a n j u s t s t o p t h e r e . R e m e m b e r t h e p r e v io u s B o a r d h a d c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t v a l u e i n t h e c o n tr a c t, a g r e e d ? 20 MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then previous Board had charged . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y M r Ts o ts i , I k n o w i t ’s l a t e a f t e r n o o n , m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u r v o ic e d o e s n ’ t g o d o w n s o i t c a n b e r e c o r d e d p r o p e r ly. y o u s a i d y e s y o u r v o ic e w a s q u i t e l o w. Page 123 of 159 When 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 MR TSOTSI: Ye s , y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y th a n k y o u . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: A n d th e B o a r d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C e r t a i n ly t h e r e ’s a c a v e a t t h e r e , b u t a n y w a y w e w il l t a lk a b o u t t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Th e B o a r d h a d a ls o a g r e e d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] W e l l I a m s o r r y, i f t h e r e is a c a v e a t a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u p u t i t b e c a u s e i f y o u n e v e r p u t i t t h e tr a n s c r i p t w o n ’ t r e a d t h a t there was a caveat. 10 MR TSOTSI: W h e n w e h a d a d i s c u s s io n a s a B o a r d , t h i s w a s n o o n t h e e i t h e r t h e 3 r d o r th e 8 t h , w h e n w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g t h e v a lu e o f t h i s c o n tr a c t t h e d i s c u s s i o n w a s f o c u s e d o n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s ir r e g u l a r a n d i t h a v i n g b e e n ir r e g u l a r h a d c r e a te d a s it u a ti o n w h e r e E s k o m w a s p u t in a p o s i ti o n w h e r e t h e f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts h a d t o r e fl e c t t h i s ir r e g u la r i ty, a n d a ls o t h e fa c t t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t d i d n ’ t h a v e a t e r m in a ti o n c la u s e s o t h e s e is s u e s w e r e is s u e s w h ic h t h e B o a r d a g r e e d c e r t a i n l y t h a t t h e y d is a d v a n t a g e d E s k o m . S o t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t t h is is a b a d c o n tr a c t s t e ms f r o m t h a t , b e c a u s e th o s e a r e f a c ts t h a t w e h a d b e f o r e u s . 20 N o w w h a t w e d i d n o t h a v e a s fa c ts w a s t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e o f t h e c o n t r a c t a n d li k e I s a y u n fo r tu n a t e ly w h a t i s w r i t te n h e r e d o e s n o t m a k e th a t d is t in c ti o n . T h e B o a r d d id n o t s a y t h a t t h e r e is n o c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e i n th e c o n tr a c t , t h a t w a s n o t r a is e d w it h th e B o a r d , b e c a u s e t h e l e g a l a d v is o r s s a id t o u s t h a t t h e B o a r d w o u l d n e e d to v e r i fy th a t th e r e i s i n d e e d c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e i n t h e c o n tr a c t , t h e y w e r e Page 124 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 n o t c o m p e t e n t t o p r o n o u n c e t h e m s e lv e s o n t h a t , n o r d id F M G g o in t o t h a t m a t t e r, h e n c e L u d w a b a M z w a i A t t o r n e y s s u g g e s t e d t o u s t h a t – t h e y i n f a c t s u g g e s t e d w e s h o u ld g o b a c k t o t h e a u d i t o r s a n d a s k t h e m t o d o a c o m m e r c i a l r e v i e w o f t h e c o n tr a c t . N o w t h e o th e r a s p e c t w h ic h w a s n o t k n o w n , I d o n ’ t b e li e v e w a s k n o w n to th e B o a r d , w a s t h e f a c t t h a t o r d i n a r i ly i n a n y c o n tr a c t th a t E s k o m e n t e r s i n to th e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h a t c o n tr a c t w o u l d b e e s t a b li s h e d i n t h e p r o c e s s o f n e g o ti a ti n g t h a t c o n tr a c t. N o w w e w e r e n o t p r iv y t o th e f a c t th a t th a t d i d h a p p e n b e c a u s e 10 M r M a t ji la d i d n o t a v a i l h i m s e l f f o r u s t o e n g a g e h i m o n th a t p a r ti c u la r m a t t e r. H e n c e in t h e l e g a l a d v i c e t h a t t h e l a w y e r s g a v e u s th e y d id in d i c a t e th a t i t w o u l d b e p r u d e n t f o r u s t o e n g a g e w i t h Mr M a t ji la , t o e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r in fa c t t h e r e w a s c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e t h a t h e s a w i n t h e c o n tr a c t. S o I w o u ld s a y th e n in r e s p o n s e to t h e q u e s ti o n o r to th e o b s e r v a t i o n th a t p e r h a p s t h is p a r a g r a p h d o e s n o t d o ju s tic e t o p r e c i s e ly w h a t t h e B o a r d ’s i n t e n t w a s w h e n th e y s a i d th is i s a b a d c o n tr a c t, t h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Mr Ts o t s i is y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n t h a t y o u c ir c u l a t e d a R o u n d R o b in r e s o l u ti o n t o th e B o a r d o f E s k o m t o a p p r o v e a R 4 3 m il li o n c o n tr a c t f o r E s k o m i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e B o a r d o f E s k o m h a d n o t a s s e s s e d th e c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e y e t o f t h a t c o n tr a c t ? MR TSOTSI: T h e f a c t is t h a t t h e B o a r d d id n o t a s s e s s t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t n o , th a t is a fa c t . Page 125 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u a s k e d t h e n e w B o a r d to a p p r o v e a c o n tr a c t i n r e s p e c t o f w h i c h n o a s s e s s m e n t a s t o i ts v a l u e t o E s k o m had been done? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I d o n ’ t b e l ie v e th a t is a p o i n t fo r m e , i f y o u w e r e t o a s k m e w h y w e r a t i fy th e c o n tr a c t I w o u l d s i m p l y s a y th a t i s a d v ic e w e g o t fr o m o u r l e g a l a d v is o r s . CHAIRPERSON: understand W e l l I ’ m n o t s u r e if t h a t i s c o r r e c t b e c a u s e a s I your e v id e n c e and some of the documentation th e y a n s w e r e d c e r t a i n th i n g s , t h a t i s y o u r l e g a l a d v i s o r s , b u t t h e y s a i d w h e n 10 it c o m e s t o w h e t h e r t h i s c o n tr a c t h a s c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e w e c a n n o t t e ll you. N o w I w a s g o i n g to s a y t h i s to y o u t h a t m y e x p e c t a ti o n w o u l d have been that whatever Board if they are asked or if they got to – or if a n is s u e a r is e s a b o u t a n y c o n tr a c t th a t m a n a g e m e n t m i g h t h a v e e n t e r e d i n to o r i f t h e y a r e a s k e d t o a p p r o v e a n y c o n t r a c t t h e fir s t th i n g w o u ld b e h o w d o e s t h i s c o n tr a c t h e l p u s a s E s k o m , t h a t g o e s t o t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e . N o w o f c o u r s e t h e r e m a y b e t h in g s t h a t a n e n t it y s u c h a s E s k o m m i g h t d o w h i c h w h e r e t h e y m ig h t n o t p u t c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e q u i t e 20 h i g h u p b u t t h e r e a r e o t h e r c o n s i d e r a ti o n s b e c a u s e it is a p u b l ic e n t i ty b l a h - b l a h - b la h , but n e v e r th e le s s I would expect that the B o a r d w o u l d ta k e a v i e w o n th e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e a n d i f th e y s a y t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e is n o t h ig h but we are j u s ti f ie d in doing it n e v e r t h e l e s s b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D , a t l e a s t t h e y h a v e a p p li e d t h e ir m i n d t o w h e th e r w h a t th e y a r e g o i n g t o a p p r o v e is s o m e t h i n g t h a t Page 126 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 should be approved. S o m y o w n i d e a o r e x p e c t a t i o n is c e r t a i n l y t h a t y o u s h o u ld n o t a s k a B o a r d t o e x te n d o r r e n e w a c o n t r a c t if t h a t q u e s t i o n h a s n o t b e e n r e s o l v e d in y o u r o w n m in d , o r a t l e a s t y o u m u s t a le r t t h e m , b u t I w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t i s a q u e s ti o n t o b e d e c i d e d f ir s t b e fo r e y o u s a y o k a y w e r e n e w, b e c a u s e i f y o u r e n e w a n d l a te r o n y o u fi n d t h a t th e r e ’s n o c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e y o u a r e s t u c k w i th a c o n tr a c t a n d y o u m i g h t l o s e a lo t o f m o n e y. T h a t ’s m y e x p e c ta t io n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e t o 10 s a y. MR TSOTSI: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t h i n k w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t M s H o f m e y r a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n b e fo r e I h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p l a i n p r e v i o u s ly to t h a t w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: O k a y, o k a y. A n d I th in k i f t h e q u e s ti o n w a s a s k e d w h y d i d I r a t if y t h e c o n tr a c t I w o u ld t h e n h a v e d e a l t w i th w h a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t n o w. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: S o m a y I g o i n t o t h a t? CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR TSOTSI: O k a y, o k a y. Ye s g o i n to t h a t . B e c a u s e I t h i n k th a t w i ll t h e n h e l p u s in t e r m s o f th e m a t t e r t h a t y o u a d d r e s s n o w. C h a ir o n t h e m e e ti n g o f I th in k i t ’s th e t h ir d , I s t a n d t o b e c o r r e c t , e i t h e r t h e t h ir d o r t h e e i g h t m e e ti n g , I a m n o t e x a c tl y c e r t a i n I t h i n k i t w a s t h e 3 r d , th e l a w y e r s w e r e p r e s e n t i n t h e m e e t in g , a n d t h e r e w e r e a f e w th i n g s w h ic h w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th w h ic h th e y h a d o b s e r v e d i n th e S N G r e p o r t , a n d o n e o f w h i c h w a s t h e Page 127 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t . T h e y s a id to u s t h a t i n o r d e r f o r u s t o r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t i t w o u ld b e a d v is a b l e f o r u s t o e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r t h e r e i s v a l u e in th e c o n tr a c t, m e a n i n g c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e . A n d t h e n th e y w e n t o n t o s a y w h e n th e y w e r e n o w d e a li n g w i t h c a n c e ll a t io n o f t h e c o n t r a c t , t h e y w e n t o n t o s a y t h a t if w e to o k t h e r o u t e t o c a n c e l t h e c o n tr a c t w e w i ll b e d o i n g s o w i t h n o l e g a l b a s is t o t e r m i n a t e . S o t h e B o a r d w a s s i t t in g w it h t h e s e t w o p o s i ti o n s , a n d t h e r e w a s q u i t e a n e x te n s iv e d i s c u s s io n i n t h e B o a r d a b o u t th e s e t w o is s u e s . 10 O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t w a s r a i s e d i n t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g w h ic h w a s a ls o a c o n s e q u e n c e o f w h a t o u r l a w y e r s i n d ic a te d i s w h a t w e r e th e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f c a n c e l la t io n o f y o u r c o n tr a c t . S o th e d is c u s s io n th e n n a r r o w e d t o e s s e n ti a l ly b e t w e e n c a n c e l la t io n a n d r a t i fi c a t io n , w h ic h p o s i t i o n a r e w e g o i n g t o b e b e t t e r in , t h e t e r m s o f s e c u r i n g t h e in t e r e s t o f th e c o m p a n y, a n d a s I s a y t h i s is q u i t e a l o n g d is c u s s i o n . A t t h e e n d o f i t t h e c o n c lu s i o n w a s th a t w e a r e b e t t e r o ff r a ti fy i n g th e c o n tr a c t th a n t e r m i n a t in g i t . T h a t i s w h a t tr a n s p ir e d i n , I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t ’s t h e 8 t h o r t h e 3 r d , i t w a s s o m e w h e r e t h e r e , 20 w h e r e t h e r e i s a n in d i c a t io n t h a t w e h a d a d is c u s s i o n a n d t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e r e o n t h e t a b l e a t t h e ti m e w e r e t h e t h i n g s t h a t I a m j u s t r e fe r r i n g t o n o w, t h e t w o p o s it i o n s , c a n c e ll a t i o n o r r a ti fi c a t io n a n d th e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f e a c h o f th o s e p o s i ti o n s . S o i n r e s p o n s e t o w h a t y o u s a i d t h e r e w e r e c e r t a in ly a r e c o g n i ti o n t h a t t h e b e s t w a y t o d e t e r m i n e t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t Page 128 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w o u ld b e to d o – I m e a n a c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e i s t o d o s o m e e v a l u a t io n , some f o r e n s ic e n q u ir y in t o th a t aspect. But g iv e n a ll the c o n s i d e r a ti o n s t h a t w e r e p u t o n th e ta b le i t w a s a g r e e d o r i t w a s t h o u g h t t h a t th e b e s t t h i n g t o d o w o u l d b e to r a t i fy t h e c o n tr a c t, c o n s i d e r in g w h a t fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a t i o n s i t w o u l d h a v e i f w e d i d n o t r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o t s i th a t ’s n o t r e fl e c t e d in t h e m i n u t e s o f e i t h e r th e 3 r d o r t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I r a is e d w i t h y o u is i f y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n is c o r r e c t t h e n t h e o l d B o a r d w o u ld h a v e 10 r a ti fi e d th e c o n t r a c t , w o u ld n ’t t h e y ? MR TSOTSI: I a m n o t s a y i n g th a t th e o l d b o a r d w o u l d n o t h a v e r a t if i e d t h e c o n tr a c t, I a m j u s t s i m p l y s a y i n g t h a t i n th a t d is c u s s i o n t h e r e w a s a n i n d ic a t io n t h a t i t is b e t t e r f o r u s to r a ti fy th e c o n tr a c t t h a n n o t t o r a ti fy it o r c a n c e l it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u s u g g e s t in g t h a t w a s a c o n s e n s u s p o s i ti o n o f t h e B o a r d ? MR TSOTSI: N o I d o n ’ t t h i n k it w a s a c o n s e n s u s p o s i t io n , n o t i n th e s e n s e o f – t h i s w a s n o t a B o a r d m e e ti n g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] h e s e n s e o f u s h a v i n g , s i t ti n g t h e r e o n o u r o w n a n d s it t i n g h a v i n g a d is c u s s i o n . 20 We w o u ld h a v e n e e d e d t o s it d o w n a n d m e e t a n d a r r iv e a t a s o l u ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: Indeed. S o th a t is n o t a c o n s e n s u s s e e k i n g m e e t in g i f y o u l ik e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o s o t h e r e w a s n ’ t a g r e e m e n t o n th e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r t h a t i t w a s b e t t e r fo r E s k o m t o r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t, w a s th e r e ? MR TSOTSI: I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t a d is c u s s io n t h a t t o o k p l a c e i n fr o n t , Page 129 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 in t h e p r e s e n c e o f o u r la w y e r s , w h a t t h e y s a id t o u s w a s th a t i t w o u ld n o t b e – I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r th e w o r d s t h e y u s e d e x a c tly b u t i t w o u l d n o t be a good thing for us to cancel, rather it would not be – it would be a d v is a b l e f o r u s , i f y o u l ik e , n o t to c a n c e l t h e c o n t r a c t b e c a u s e w e d o n ’t h a v e a l e g a l b a s i s f o r d o i n g s o . W e w o u l d h a v e t o lo o k a t t h e s p e c i f ic m i n u t e a s t o w h a t i t i s t h a t i t s a y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t is a fa ir s u m m a r y o f t h e L e d w a b a M z w a i a d v ic e , c e r t a i n l y, b u t w h e r e t h i n g s e n d e d o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r w a s t h a t a w h o l e lo t o f i n fo r m a ti o n w a s g o i n g to b e p u t in t o h a n d o v e r 10 r e p o r t s c o n f ir m i n g t h e p o s i t io n t h a t t h e p r e v io u s B o a r d h a d t a k e n t h a t i t w a s a b a d c o n tr a c t , a n d y o u w i ll h a v e s e e n th a t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n , c o r r e c t? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , a n d th e n w h e n y o u c ir c u l a t e d th e R o u n d R o b in r e s o l u ti o n y o u – s ta t e m e n ts a r e r e f l e c t e d i n t h e s u m m a r y o f f a c ts t h a t s u g g e s t t h a t t h e r e is v a l u e i n th e c o n tr a c t f o r E s k o m , t h a t ’s t h e p a r a g r a p h w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t p r e v i o u s l y. MR TSOTSI: This one yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : MR TSOTSI: 20 Ye s . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h a t w a s n o t c o r r e c t ? W e ll i n s o fa r a s it r e fl e c ts t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e is n o c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e i n th e c o n tr a c t t h e n I w o u ld s a y t h a t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n e x p li c i tl y s t a t e d , b u t th e w a y i t a p p e a r s h e r e v is - a - v is w h a t w a s s a i d e a r l ie r, o n e w o u ld g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t th e r e i s n o v a l u e i n th e c o n tr a c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l I t h i n k o n t h e c o n tr a r y w h a t i s r e f le c t e d t h e r e is t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t d o e s g iv e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e a n d w h a t I a m Page 130 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 p u t t in g to y o u is t h a t t h a t e i t h e r h a d n o t b e e n e s t a b li s h e d . MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r w a s in f a c t c o n tr a r y t o th e v ie w ta k e n b y the previous Board. MR TSOTSI: No, I disagree. I t w a s n o t c o n tr a r y t o t h e v i e w t h a t w a s t a k e n b y t h e p r e v io u s B o a r d . I a g r e e w i t h y o u w h e n y o u s a y i t w a s n o t e s t a b li s h e d , t h a t is c o r r e c t , b u t t h e p r e v i o u s B o a r d d i d n o t t a k e a v ie w t h a t th e r e i s n o c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e in t h e c o n tr a c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 M r Ts o ts i le t ’s l e a v e i t t h e r e , p r e v i o u s ly i n t h e e v i d e n c e , ju s t t o b e f a ir t o y o u , w h a t w e h a d e s ta b lis h e d w a s t h a t o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r i t w a s u n d e r s t o o d t h a t c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e n e e d e d t o b e e s t a b li s h e d . MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e 5 t h o f D e c e m b e r Mr M a t ji la w a s g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n it y a n d m a d e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s a b o u t t h a t v e r y v a l u e . I c a n t a k e y o u t o h is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i f y o u w o u l d l ik e , b e c a u s e p r e v i o u s l y y o u s e e m e d t o i n d ic a te t h a t h e d id n ’ t a d d r e s s c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e , h e d i d . H e w e n t i n t o s o m e d e ta il a b o u t i t , h e s p o k e a b o u t 1 7 % s c o r e b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e t o g o to t h e a g e n c y a n d h e s p o k e a b o u t t h e p la t f o r m 20 a s “a p h e n o m e n a l s u c c e s s fo r 4 9 M ” a n d t h e n th e B o a r d m e t o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r a n d t h e r e c o r d i n g s th e r e a r e t h a t a n i n s i s te n c e w a s m a d e b y M s L e t h u li th a t t h e h a n d o v e r r e p o r t r e fl e c t t h a t it w a s t h e c o m m o n p o s i ti o n o f t h e B o a r d th a t i t w a s a b a d c o n tr a c t . S o w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o p u t t o y o u f o r y o u r c o m m e n t a t t h i s p o i n t is i f y o u r e a d th o s e e v e n ts i n c o n te x t a n d a s t h e y d e v e l o p o v e r Page 131 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 ti m e i t i s f a ir to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 8 t h o f D e c e m b e r w a s t h a t t h e o l d B o a r d h a d c o n c l u d e d , i t r e g a r d e d it a s a b a d c o n t r a c t , fr o m a c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e p e r s p e c t iv e , a n d i t w a n te d t h a t to b e r e l a y e d to th e new board. D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n th a t ? MR TSOTSI: M y c o m m e n t is q u i t e c l e a r i n t h a t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e r e fl e c t io n o f t h a t in t h e c o n tr a c t h a d t o d o w i t h t h e w a y t h e c o n tr a c t w a s a r r i v e d a t , a n d th e f a c t t h a t t h e p r o v is io n s o f th e c o n tr a c t w e r e n o t in E s k o m ’s f a v o u r o r a d v a n t a g e , b u t t h a t i n te r ms o f th e c o m m e r c i a l 10 v a l u e o f th e c o n tr a c t w e c o u l d n ’ t p a s s a n o p i n i o n o n t h a t b e c a u s e th a t had not been done. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b y t h e t i m e i t w a s r a t i fi e d t h a t i t h a d s ti ll not been done, correct? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n t h e n m o v e t o t h e v o te s , C h a ir I w a n t t o d e a l w i th t h is b r ie f ly, b e c a u s e w e c o n c l u d e d w i th M r P a m e n s k y ’s e v i d e n c e o n t h e b a s is th a t w e a c t u a ll y w e r e n ’t c e r t a i n w h e t h e r t h e R o u n d R o b i n r e s o l u t i o n h a d p a s s e d b e c a u s e w e ’d o n l y m a n a g e d t o o b t a i n r e c o r d s o f n in e r e s p o n s e s a n d t h e r e w a s a to t a l o f 1 3 b o a r d 20 m e m b e r s a n d y o u n e e d 1 0 t o a c h ie v e a 7 5 % r e q u ir e m e n t f o r a R o u n d R o b in r e s o lu t io n t o p a s s , b u t M s N a i d o o o v e r n i g h t a c t u a l ly h a s p r o v i d e d u s w i t h t h e r e q u is i t e in f o r m a ti o n t h e r e a n d th a t is t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e m e e t in g t h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h e 1 9 t h o f M a r c h Mr Ts o ts i . I t is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o t h e r e , it i s i n t h e r e c o r d n o w, w e h a v e p l a c e d h e r s t a t e m e n t a n d i ts a n n e x u r e s a t t h e b a c k o f M r Ts o ts i’s Page 132 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 b u n d l e . T h e u p s h o t o f i t is th a t th e y d id a c t u a ll y r e c e iv e t e n r e s p o n s e s a n d t h e o n ly m e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w h o d i d n o t v o te i n f a v o u r o f t h e r e s o l u ti o n w e r e Ms K li n e , t h e f in a n c e d ir e c t o r a t th e ti m e , M s M o l e f e , a n d Mr B a l o y i , b u t n o n e t h e l e s s t h e m a t t e r is t a k e n u p a t t h e 1 9 t h o f M a r c h m e e ti n g , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s t h e m a tt e r w a s d e a l t w i t h o n th e 1 9 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w a s it d e a l t w i t h a t t h e 1 9 t h M a r c h m e e ti n g i f t h e r e s o l u ti o n h a d a l r e a d y p a s s e d ? MR TSOTSI: 10 N o I t h i n k w h a t t h e i n te n ti o n w a s , fir s t o f a ll w a s t o r e p o r t w h a t t h e r e s o l u ti o n ’s o u tc o m e w a s a n d t h e r e w a s o u ts t a n d in g is s u e s t h a t w e r e a d d r e s s e d w h i c h n e e d e d t o b e d e a l t w i t h a n d t h a t w a s t h e i s s u e o f t h e a c t io n th a t s h o u l d b e ta k e n i n r e s p e c t o f M r M a ji l a a n d M r C h o e u , th e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t ’s c o m e t o th a t i n a m o m e n t , o n e t h i n g j u s t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n , I f o r g o t t o a s k , y o u d id n ’t a tt a c h a c o p y o f t h e a c tu a l c o n tr a c t t h a t t h e n e w B o a r d w a s b e in g a s k e d t o r a t i fy w h e n y o u s e n t o u t t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u t i o n , w h y w a s t h a t e x c lu d e d ? MR TSOTSI: 20 My r e c o l l e c ti o n C h a ir i f I c a n r e c a ll , w a s t h a t it w a s m e a n t t o b e in c l u d e d a n d s e c o n d l y th a t i t w a s i n te n d e d a ls o to b e in c l u d e d i n t h e h a n d - o v e r n o t e s t h a t w e ’d a s k e d to b e h a n d e d o v e r t o the new Board. So I was not aware that these things had not happened. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a ls o m e n t io n e d e a r l ie r t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d th a t a l l o f t h o s e m in u t e s o f t h e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g s , Page 133 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t o s h o w t h e d e li b e r a t i o n s t h a t th e p r e v i o u s B o a r d h a d , h a d o n th e m a t t e r w o u l d a ls o b e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o th e n e w B o a r d is t h a t r ig h t? MR TSOTSI: Correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n e o f th a t w a s a c c o m p a n i e d a t t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u t i o n e i t h e r d i d i t? MR TSOTSI: N o I d is c o v e r e d , n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w o u l d y o u s a y i t ’s fa ir th a t th e s e t o f fa c t s a b o u t t h i s c o n tr a c t t h a t t h e n e w B o a r d w a s e q u i p p e d w i th , w h e n t h e y r e c e i v e d y o u r r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n , w e r e in c o m p l e te a n d i n s o m e 10 r e s p e c ts i n c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: T h e y w e r e i n c o m p l e t e y e s a n d i n s o m e r e s p e c ts in c o r r e c t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b y th e ti m e w e g e t t o th e 1 9 M a r c h m e e ti n g y o u ’ v e b e e n a le r t e d t o s o m e o f t h e s e e r r o r s , w h y d i d y o u n o t , a t t h a t p o i n t , t h i n k t h e y s h o u ld b e r a is e d w it h th e B o a r d ? MR TSOTSI: Yo u s e e , I d i d in d ic a t e t o y o u t h a t b y t h e t i m e I e s t a b li s h e d w h a t h a d a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d w e h a d t h e r e s p o n s e s fr o m t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s a n d i n fa c t i t w a s a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f m y r e c e iv in g t h e r e s p o n s e s t h a t I n o w lo o k e d a t t h e r o u n d r o b i n a n d r e a l is e d t h a t th e r e 20 w e r e e r r o r s i n i t , s o I t h e n th o u g h t , t h e b e s t th in g to d o w o u l d b e to tr y a n d d e a l w i th t h o s e is s u e s i n t h e n e x t B o a r d m e e ti n g w h i c h w a s o n t h e 1 9 t h a n d s e e i f w e c a n a d d r e s s t h e m b u t a t t h a t m e e t in g b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t s e e t h e n e e d t o c a ll a s p e c i a l B o a r d m e e ti n g f o r t h a t p u r p o s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o ts i w e h a v e a n e x c e r p t o f t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t ’s b e e n tr a n s c r i b e d b y M s N a i d o o , I h a v e t o s a y t o y o u I Page 134 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 h a v e n o t lis t e n e d to t h e f u l l r e c o r d in g , th is w a s b r o u g h t t o o u r a t te n ti o n la s t n ig h t b u t d i d y o u e v e r, i n th a t m e e ti n g , s a y t o t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s , “ I’ v e n o w id e n ti fi e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e f a c t u a l e r r o r s in w h a t y o u w e r e g iv e n w h e n y o u m a d e t h i s d e c i s i o n p r e v i o u s ly a n d I n e e d y o u t o k n o w w h a t th e y a r e a n d t a k e m a t t e r s fr o m th e r e ” . MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I d o n ’ t r e c a l l s p e c i fic a l ly t h a t , t h a t is t h e c a s e b u t w h a t I c a n r e c a l l is t h a t th e B o a r d m e m b e r s h a d r a is e d t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e y d i d n o t h a v e t h a t w o u ld h a v e h e l p e d t h e m to m a k e – i n t h e ir d e c is io n m a k i n g a n d I t h i n k I r e s p o n d e d 10 a t t h a t ti m e , i n te r m s o f t h e f a c t t h a t I d id n o t ic e t h a t t h e r e w a s in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s m is s in g t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r e . I d o n ’ t r e c a l l , my s e l f i n i ti a ti n g th e c o n v e r s a t i o n a s y o u ’v e p u t i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i I w o u l d t h e n li k e t o m o v e t o t h a t is s u e o f t h e d i s c ip li n a r y a c ti o n a g a i n s t e i t h e r M r M a ji la o r M r C h o e u , r ig h t b e c a u s e y o u ’v e a lr e a d y i d e n ti f ie d t h a t th e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n w a s in a c c u r a t e in s o f a r a s i t c o n v e y e d t h a t M r C h o e u w a s n o l o n g e r w i t h i n t h e e m p l o y o f E s k o m . W h y w e r e d is c ip li n a r y s t e p s n e v e r t a k e n a g a in s t M r C h o e u ? MR TSOTSI: 20 Chairman the …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: q u e s t io n . I ’ m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r, p l e a s e d o n ’ t fo r g e t y o u r J u s t t o t a k e o n e s t e p b a c k , y o u s a i d th a t y o u d o n ’ t r e c a ll e v e r h a v i n g s a i d t o t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s , I ’ v e d is c o v e r e d o r I’v e r e a l is e d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t g iv e n a c o m p l e te p ic tu r e b e f o r e y o u m a d e a d e c is i o n o n t h e r o u n d r o b i n o n t h is c o n tr a c t , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t a f t e r y o u h a d r e a l is e d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t g iv e n a c o m p l e t e p ic t u r e , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t Page 135 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 y o u s h o u l d h a v e s a i d t h a t t o t h e m , y o u s h o u l d h a v e a l e r te d t h e m t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t g i v e n a n a c c u r a te p ic t u r e o r a c o m p le t e p ic t u r e b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n o m is s io n s ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I a c c e p t th a t I s h o u l d h a v e d o n e th a t b u t m y in t e n t io n w a s t o d o it a t th e m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o I a c c e p t – I ’ m n o t p a r ti c u l a r ly t a l k i n g a b o u t y o u d o i n g it a t a p a r t ic u l a r ti m e . I ’ m j u s t a s k i n g w h e t h e r, a t s o m e s t a t e , t h e r e is a ti m e w h e n y o u o b v i o u s ly i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e , w h e t h e r y o u d i d , a t s o m e s t a g e s a y t o t h e B o a r d , I’ v e 10 h a d a l o o k a g a i n a t th e d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s g i v e n to y o u a s s e t ti n g o u t t h e f a c t s a n d o n t h e b a s is o f w h ic h y o u t o o k t h e d e c is i o n s y o u t o o k b u t I’ v e r e a l is e d t h a t it w a s n o t c o m p le t e , t h e p ic t u r e w a s n o t c o m p l e te a n d I’ d l ik e t o t e ll y o u e x a c tly w h a t y o u w e r e n o t t o l d a n d t h e n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . S o y o u a c c e p t th a t y o u s h o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t a t s o m e s t a g e ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u s a y y o u d id n o t , a s f a r a s y o u c a n r e c a l l d i d do it at any stage. MR TSOTSI: N o t i m m e d i a te ly a ft e r I’ d s e e n w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d y e s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s b u t y o u c a n ’t r e m e m b e r w h y y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e t o l d t h e m a f t e r y o u ’ d r e a l is e d it b e c a u s e i t s e e m s to m e a n a tu r a l t h i n g t o d o b e c a u s e t h a t d o c u m e n t h a d y o u r s ig n a t u r e , n o t o n ly t h a t , i n it y o u w e r e w a r r a n ti n g t h a t t h e fa c ts g iv e n a b o v e w e r e c o r r e c t a n d i f th e r e w e r e o m i s s i o n s o f m a t e r i a l fa c t s , th a t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n c l u d e d , t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n c e r n e d th a t th e y m a d e d e c is i o n s o n th e b a s is o f a n a s s u r a n c e b y y o u t h a t t h e s e f a c ts w e r e c o r r e c t , w h e n i n Page 136 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 f a c t t h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n c o r r e c t b y v ir t u e o f t h e f a c t t h a t c e r t a i n m a t e r i a l f a c ts w e r e n o t i n c l u d e d . MR TSOTSI: I d o t a k e t h e p o i n t C h a ir, I t h i n k t h e m e e ti n g w a s – a m a t t e r o f a w e e k o r s o p r i o r t o m y o b s e r v a ti o n h e r e s o I – t o m y m in d I ju s t t h o u g h t, w e ll t h e B o a r d is g o i n g to b e g a t h e r i n g s o o n s o t h a t w il l b e a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r m e to in d i c a t e w h a t I’ d s e e n to t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: J a I’ m n o t s u r e i f w e a r e n o t a t c r o s s - p u r p o s e s . D i d y o u , a t t h e n e x t m e e ti n g w h a t e v e r m e e ti n g t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t, d i d y o u t h e n s a y t h is to t h e m ? 10 MR TSOTSI: I d o n ’ t r e c a l l C h a ir m a n w h e t h e r I a c t u a ll y s a i d t h a t t o t h e m I w o u l d h a v e to lo o k a t t h e mi n u te s . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: O k a y. I h o n e s t ly d o n ’t r e c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: But you would expect that it was something that you w o u ld d o ? MR TSOTSI: I w o u l d e x p e c t i t ’s s o m e t h i n g I w o u l d d o c e r ta i n ly y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Ts o ts i I c a n a l e r t y o u t o t h e f a c t t h a t i t’s n o t m in u t e s , t h a t y o u d r e w a n y a t t e n ti o n t o t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s t h a t 20 t h e r e w e r e e r r o r s in t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n t h a t y o u c ir c u l a te d a n d c e r t a i n l y in th e t r a n s c r i p t t h a t w e ’v e r e c e i v e d , t h e r e ’s n o i n d ic a ti o n b u t w e w il l l is t e n t o t h e f u ll r e c o r d i n g a n d if t h e r e ’s a n y is s u e a r i s i n g w e ’ll a l e r t y o u b u t a s w e h a v e i t t o d a y y o u d i d n o t f l a g t h a t is s u e a t th e 1 9 M a r c h m e e ti n g . C h a ir i f I m a y w e a r e s h o r t ly b e f o r e fo u r a n d I j u s t w o n d e r e d w h a t t h e a r r a n g e m e n ts w il l b e , i f w e ’ ll s i t a b it l a t e r, h o w Page 137 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 w o u ld y o u l ik e t o c o n t i n u e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e , I c a n s it b e y o n d 4 o ’c l o c k b u t n o t m u c h b e y o n d b e c a u s e o f a c o m m i t m e n t I h a v e a t f iv e . S o w e c o u l d s i t m a y b e u n t il a b o u t t w e n t y - fiv e p a s t f o u r o r s o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: C e r t a i n ly. H o w l o n g d o y o u t h in k w e n e e d b e f o r e M r Ts o ts i’s is a b l e t o fi n i s h h i s e v i d e n c e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I’ m o p ti m i s t ic w e ’ll f in is h i n th a t ti m e , I h a v e t w o f u r th e r t o p ic s , s i m p l y t h e d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s a n d th e n t h e 10 e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y n o t h a t’s f in e a n d i n t e r m s o f th e o t h e r w i t n e s s ’s t o m o r r o w, h o w d o e s i t l o o k li k e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l w e h a v e t h r e e w h ic h is g e n e r a ll y q u i t e a t a ll a s k t o c o m p l e t e t h e m a ll , w o u l d i t b e c o n v e n ie n t t o s t a r t a b i t e a r l ie r t o m o r r o w j u s t s o t h a t w e c a n tr y a n d e n s u r e c o m p l e t i o n , t h e y a r e a ll a c tu a lly s h o r t e r w i tn e s s e s c e r ta i n ly. CHAIRPERSON: N o t h e r e i s a c h a n c e w e c o u l d s ta r t m a y b e a t h a lf p a s t n in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 CHAIRPERSON: Indeed. J a w e c o u ld p o s s i b ly l o o k a t s ta r t in g a t h a l f p a s t n i n e . M r Ts o ts i w i ll i t b e f in e w i th y o u i f w e g o b e y o n d o u r n o r m a l ti m e f o r a d j o u r n m e n t m a y b e b e y o n d 4 o ’ c l o c k t o a b o u t t w e n ty - f iv e p a s t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t w il l b e f i n e o k a y, I t h i n k I w o u l d l ik e t o ta k e a v e r y b r i e f a d j o u r n m e n t a n d t h e n w e c a n – fi v e mi n u te s a n d th e n w e c o m e Page 138 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 back. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir m a y w e r e l e a s e t h e w i t n e s s w h o w o u l d h a v e s t a r t e d t o d a y b u t w h o w il l b e s t a r ti n g th e n t o m o r r o w m o r n in g ? CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. O k a y w e ’l l ta k e fi v e m i n u te s a d j o u r n m e n t , w e adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let us proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir, j u s t b e fo r e a n in t e r a c ti o n b e tw e e n y o u a n d M r Ts o t s i I h a d a s k e d t h e q u e s t io n w h y w a s M r C h o e u n o t d i s c i p li n e d . C a n y o u g iv e u s y o u r a n s w e r t o t h a t M r Ts o ts i ? M R T S O T S I : O h . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . C h a ir, I u n d e r s to o d t h e p r o c e s s w o u ld b e th a t w e n e e d e d t o fi n i s h w it h t h e is s u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t f ir s t and foremost. Fo ll o w i n g t h a t t h e n fo c u s o n t h e i s s u e s a r o u n d t h e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e s . N o w b y t h e ti m e w e g o t to t h a t s ta g e I w a s a b o u t t o l e a v e t h e c o m p a n y. 20 I n fa c t I h a d l e f t a t t h e e n d o f t h a t m o n t h . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d s u b s e q u e n t ly. W h e t h e r t h e B o a r d c o n t in u e d t o p u r s u e that issue. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d y o u r e m a i n e d o n t h e B o a r d w o u l d y o u h a v e t a k e n it u p ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I t w a s p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f w h a t th e fi d u c ia r y d u ty o f Page 139 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : T h e B o a r d M e m b e r s w a s o r i s . S o c l e a r ly I w o u l d - w o u l d h a v e h a d to h a v e p u r s u e . W e w o u l d h a v e h a d n o c h o ic e b u t t o p u r s u e it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. L e t u s m o v e t h e n to th e t o p i c o f th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r if w e m a y, b e c a u s e y o u w i ll r e c a l l I to o k y o u p r e v io u s ly t o a l e t te r t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d o n 2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . I t w a s j u s t a f t e r th e m e d i a h a d b e g u n r e p o r t i n g a b o u t th is T N A C o n tr a c t fo r 4 3 m il li o n … 10 MR TSOTSI: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And Ms Madonsela - the fo r m e r P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r - s a i d to y o u I a m g o in g to in c l u d e t h is in m y i n v e s t ig a ti o n , b e c a u s e s h e h a d a p r e - e x is t in g i n v e s t i g a t i o n . I a m c o n c e r n e d . P l e a s e h o l d o v e r - I t h in k s h e s a i d h e l d in a - h o l d i n a b e y a n c e th e c o n tr a c t a n d th e n s h e w a n t e d c e r ta in in f o r m a t io n fr o m y o u . M r Ts o ts i , you then responded to her and your l e t te r r e s p o n d i n g to h e r is a t p a g e - in y o u r b u n d le M M 6 - a t p a g e 4 - 4 - 4 . 1 . CHAIRPERSON: Page 4-4 … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo u r. Th r e e fo u r s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . P o in t o n e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o i n t o n e . I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR TSOTSI: 4-4-4? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . P o in t o n e . M R T S O T S I : P o in t o n e . O k a y. Page 140 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w y o u w i ll r e c a l l p r e v i o u s ly s h e h a d a s k e d f o r a c o p y o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d a c o p y o f B o a r d M in u t e s d e a li n g w i t h t h e is s u e . Right. 9 December 2014 Ms Madonsela. Now fr o m you respond. yourself - if T h is you go I - I n o te t h a t i t is n o t s i g n e d . is a over letter th e dated page to D o y o u r e c a ll t h i s le t t e r ? M R T S O T S I : I r e c a ll t h e - t h e r e q u ir e m e n t to r e s p o n d t o h e r. Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. Hm. D o - d o y o u r e m e m b e r w r it i n g t h is le t t e r o r - o r a t l e a s t r e v i e w i n g it b e f o r e i t w a s s e n t o u t ? 10 M R T S O T S I : I t w o u ld h a v e c o m e t o m y o ffi c e . I w o u ld h a v e s a t d o w n a n d d is c u s s e d i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . M R T S O T S I : A n d b e fo r e I s i g n e d it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t a n d d o y o u r e c a l l s i g n i n g i t, b e c a u s e w e ju s t h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o fi n d a - fi n d a s i g n e d v e r s io n . MR TSOTSI: I would have … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : W o u l d h a v e h a d t o s i g n i t . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . 20 M R T S O T S I : I t w o u l d h a v e g o n e o u t i n - i n my s i g n a t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t. I t s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n r e v i e w e d a t le a s t o v e r t h e p a g e b y s o m e o n e i n th e C o n te n t D e v e lo p m e n t a n d L a n g u a g e S e r v ic e s . D o e s t h a t m e a n a n y t h i n g t o y o u t h a t s t a m p ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ? Page 141 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h e r e is t h e - t h e s t a m p y o u a r e ta lk in g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . A t p a g e 4 - 4 - 4 . 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I - I m e a n I a m c a ll i n g i t a s ta m p . M a y b e th a t is - t h e r e is a b lo c k i n b l u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h e o n e a t th e b o t t o m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I t s e e m s t o s a y r e v i e w e d . W h a t d o e s t h a t s ig n if y Mr Ts o ts i? 10 M R T S O T S I : W h a t h a p p e n s is th a t a n y d o c u m e n t t h a t g o e s o u t i n - in t h e n a m e o f a C h a ir m a n c e r t a i n l y is s u b j e c t e d t o a n - a l a n g u a g e r e v ie w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . R i g h t . M R T S O T S I : S o w e h a v e p e o p l e w h o lo o k - t h e y w il l l o o k a t - i f - i f t h e Legal Department produces … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : A l e t te r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : Th a t l e t t e r h a s g o t to g o to t h e L a n g u a g e D e p a r t m e n t f o r 20 c o r r e c t n e s s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t it is c o r r e c t in - i n la n g u a g e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s h a d b e e n r e v i e w e d . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is w h a t th is m e a n s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . L e t u s g o b a c k … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. S o s o m e ti m e s i t w o u l d b e r e v i e w e d b y t h e Page 142 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t . S o m e ti m e s b y s o m e b o d y e ls e o r w a s t h e r e a l w a y s t h e s a m e u n i t th a t w o u l d r e v i e w ? MR TSOTSI: N o C h a ir m a n . I t is th e s a m e u n it . I t d o e s n o t m a t te r w h ic h p a r t o f t h e b u s in e s s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : T h e l e t t e r c o m e s fr o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : I t w o u l d g o to t h i s u n i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R T S O T S I : A n d t h e y w o u l d lo o k a n d - a n d e x a m i n e i t f o r c o r r e c t n e s s in t e r m s o f l a n g u a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o t h e - t h e f o c u s w a s th e l a n g u a g e ? MR TSOTSI: Focus is the language. CHAIRPERSON: Language … M R T S O T S I : A n d p r e s e n t a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : L a n g u a g e a n d p r e s e n t a ti o n ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. I t h o u g h t th a t w h e n f o r e x a m p le y o u ta lk e d a b o u t i t g o in g t o t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t . I th o u g h t m a y b e i t is j u s t f o r 20 c h e c k i n g t h i n g s t h a t m a y b e r e l a te d t o la w e s p e c i a l ly i f i t is a b o u t c o n tr a c ts a n d s o o n o r d id it e n c o m p a s s e v e r y t h i n g ? MR TSOTSI: No. It did not. Th e e x a m p le o f th e l a w - L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t s i m p ly s a y s t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t w o u l d ta k e i f i t is a l e g a l m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 143 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : T h e y w o u l d th e n d o t h e le g a l th e n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: And when they are done … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Bring it back to you. M R T S O T S I : T h e y w o u l d b r i n g i t to t h e L a n g u a g e D e p a r t m e n t. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Okay … MR TSOTSI: And … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n - i f f o r e x a m p l e i t w a s y o u r l e tt e r s u c h a s t h i s one was. 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h e - w o u l d t h e p o s i t io n n o t b e t h a t a ft e r t h e y h a v e d o n e w h a t e v e r i n c l u d i n g t h is g r o u p . It would come to you u l ti m a t e ly b e f o r e y o u s ig n j u s t t o c h e c k w h e t h e r w h a t e v e r c o r r e c t io n s o r a m e n d m e n t s t h e y m a y h a v e d o n e s ti ll r e f le c ts w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o convey? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C e r t a i n l y C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y w o u ld d o t h e r e v ie w i n g b e f o r e y o u s ig n ? M R T S O T S I : O h . A b s o lu t e l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. A lr i g h t. 20 M R T S O T S I : I t is a q u e s ti o n o f th e l e t t e r g o i n g v i a … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. MR TSOTSI: Them. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine. Page 144 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : Fr o m w h e r e i t - fr o m w h a t e v e r s o u r c e i t c o m e s fr o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Ts o t s i , i f w e g o t o p a g e 4 - 4 - 4 .1 w h ic h is th e f ir s t p a g e o f t h e l e t t e r. Yo u r e c o r d t h e r e c e r t a i n m a tt e r s t h a t w e r e d is c u s s e d b e t w e e n o ffic i a ls o f E s k o m a n d th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r a t a m e e t in g o n 2 7 N o v e m b e r a n d w h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d in i s p a r a g r a p h 2 . 2 . Yo u s a y th a t : “ A t t h a t m e e ti n g w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d w a s t h a t th e 10 n e w c o n tr a c t c o n c lu d e d b e t w e e n E s k o m a n d T N A M e d i a i s a d i ff e r e n t ty p e o f c o n t r a c t … ” T h a t is a r e f e r e n c e to d i ff e r e n t t o t h e p r e v io u s t w o , b e c a u s e s h e w a s a lr e a d y i n v e s ti g a ti n g th o s e t w o p u r s u a n t t o h e r i n q u ir i e s in August and it goes on and says: “ … a n d t h a t in Es k o m ’s v i e w t h e t w o m a t t e r s s h o u l d b e i n v e s ti g a t e d s e p a r a t e ly b y t h e P u b li c P r o te c to r ’s O ff ic e . A s th e y a r r i v e d fr o m t w o d i ffe r e n t c o n tr a c ts a l b e i t b e t w e e n t h e s a m e p a r t ie s . ” D i d y o u h o l d t h a t v ie w a t t h e ti m e th a t t h e y w e r e t w o d i ff e r e n t 20 c o n tr a c ts a n d s h o u l d b e d e a l t w i th - th a t t h e y w e r e d i ff e r e n t ty p e s o f c o n tr a c ts a n d s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i th s e p a r a t e ly ? M R T S O T S I : O n - o n th e b a s is o f t h e e x p l a n a ti o n t h a t w a s g i v e n to m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: T h is i s w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d . knowledge that I would have … Page 145 of 159 N o w I a m l i m i te d i n t h e 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : To t h e e x t e n t o f w h a t t h e y h a v e to t e l l m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . H m . MR TSOTSI: S o I h a v e t o a c c e p t w h a t t h e y a r e te ll i n g m e , b e c a u s e t h a t is th e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t t h e y h a v e i n t h e ir - i n t h e ir f il e s o r possession or … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: T h e y - t h e y h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n t h e s e is s u e s . So I w o u ld h a v e n o c h o ic e b u t to … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To r e ly o n t h a t? M R T S O T S I : R e ly o n w h a t t h e y h a d t o s a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Th e r e a s o n w h y I a s k i t is , b e c a u s e w h e n y o u s t a r te d y o u r te s ti m o n y a n d b o th i n y o u r a ffi d a v it t o th e C o m m is s i o n a n d y o u r s ta t e m e n t t o th e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t te e y o u r e g u l a r l y r e f e r r e d t o t h e c o n tr a c t a s a r e n e w a l . D o y o u r e m e m b e r th a t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And in your testimony you said you were told t h a t w h e n y o u fi r s t c a m e . I t w a s a r e n e w a l a n d it is a g a i n s t t h a t b a c k d r o p t h a t I a m q u e r y in g w h y y o u w o u l d th e n b e s a y i n g t o t h e P u b lic 20 P r o t e c t o r i t is a d i ff e r e n t ty p e o f c o n tr a c t i f t h e p r io r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s it w a s a r e n e w a l o f a n e x i s ti n g c o n tr a c t . MR TSOTSI: Ye s . I only be - began to understand you know what - w h a t i n fa c t t h i s l a s t T N A C o n tr a c t w a s . in v o lv e d w i th n o w. The one - the one we were O n ly w h e n w e w e n t i n to t h e in q u ir y w i t h t h e S N G a n d t h a t m a t t e r c a m e t o th e B o a r d . I t is t h e n I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t in f a c t Page 146 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 t h is is a s e p a r a t e - s e p a r a t e c o n tr a c t t o t h e p r e v i o u s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : O n e s t h a t th e y w e r e - t h a t t h e y w e r e e n g a g e d i n . S o a l l a l o n g I w a s u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n th a t th e y w e r e a s a c o n t i n u i ty o f w h a t had been - happened before. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a t le a s t b y th e t i m e y o u d i d y o u r a ff id a v i t f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d t h e s t a te m e n t t o t h e P o r tf o li o C o m m i t t e e y o u h a d u n d e r s t o o d t h a t i t w a s a n e w c o n tr a c t . Is t h a t r i g h t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, b u t y o u s t il l d e s c r ib e d i t a s a r e n e w a l ? MR TSOTSI: I - it must have been a - I think it is just … C H A I R P E R S O N : G o t t o o a c c u s t o m e d to i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m u s t h a v e g o t t o o a c c u s t o m e d t o s a y in g i t is a renewal. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t , b e c a u s e t h e r e n e w a l m a k e s i t s o u n d lik e it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s e x i s t i n g a n d i t is e a s y t o j u s t r o l l o v e r. 20 MR TSOTSI: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o e s i t n o t ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b u t i t w a s a n e n t ir e ly n e w c o n tr a c t fo r 4 3 m il li o n . C o r r e c t ? M R T S O T S I : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . Page 147 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 3 . Yo u s a y : “ A s a g r e e d in t h e m e e ti n g r e f e r r e d t o a b o v e I a t ta c h f o r y o u r a t t e n t i o n a c o p y o f t h e n e w c o n tr a c t between TNA and Eskom.” S o c e r t a i n l y y o u - y o u e n s u r e d th a t M s M a d o n s e la g o t a c o p y o f t h e c o n tr a c t , b u t a s w e h a v e s e e n p r e v i o u s ly u n f o r t u n a t e l y t h e B o a r d it s e l f d id n o t g e t a c o p y. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u g o o n a n d y o u s a y : “I am not however able to provide you with the m i n u t e s o f t h e B o a r d M e e t in g s a n d th e p u r s u a n t r e s o l u ti o n s at w h ic h d e li b e r a t e d upon. th e As new t h is agreement matter was was never d is c u s s e d b y t h e E s k o m B o a r d o f D i r e c to r s . ” Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 W h y w o u l d y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t M r Ts o ts i o n 9 D e c e m b e r w h e n t h e B o a r d o f E s k o m h a d d is c u s s e d th is a t th r e e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g s o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e l a s t fe w w e e k s ? MR TSOTSI: T h e r e a s o n is b e c a u s e t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r w a s n o t t a lk in g a b o u t t h o s e d is c u s s i o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . M R T S O T S I : I u n d e r s to o d in h e r l e t te r to m e t o - b e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e Page 148 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 d is c u s s io n s t h a t b r o u g h t a b o u t t h e s i g n a tu r e o f t h e c o n t r a c t . The e n g a g e m e n ts th a t t o o k p l a c e a n d I s u p p o s e s h e w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t th e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: I n t h e e n g a g e m e n t t h a t t o o k p l a c e t o t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d I t h i n k i f y o u l o o k a t h e r l e tt e r t h a t is w h a t i t s o u n d s t o m e lik e . S o I w a s r e s p o n d i n g t o th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To - t o m e e t in g s o f t h e B o a r d p r i o r t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t . 10 M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you and tell me she then responds on 1 5 D e c e m b e r. Yo u w il l s e e t h a t a t p a g e 4 - 4 - 5 . S h e r e f e r s t o y o u r l e t t e r o f 9 D e c e m b e r a n d w h a t I w o u l d li k e t o ju s t d r a w a t te n ti o n to . She d o e s n o t a g r e e a t p a r a g r a p h 2 t h a t th e s e c o n tr a c ts a r e d i ff e r e n t , b u t s h e g o e s o n a t p a r a g r a p h 3 . T h a t is o v e r t h e p a g e a t 4 - 4 - 6 t o s a y : “ A s I a m s t il l in v e s t i g a t in g t h e p r e v i o u s c o n tr a c t I b e li e v e it w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r u d e n t o r b o n a f i d e o f 20 E s k o m n o t t o p r o c e e d w i th th e c o n c lu s i o n o f th e c u r r e n t c o n tr a c t p e n d i n g t h e is s u in g o f m y f i n a l report and/or h a v in g a p p r is e d me of such e x p l o r a tiv e m e e ti n g s p r io r t o c o n c l u d in g t h e c u r r e n t c o n tr a c t. ” Do you see that? Page 149 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h e - s h e is i n a s e n s e s a y in g I h a v e a lr e a d y fl a g g e d a n is s u e h e r e a n d y e t y o u h a v e g o n e o ff a n d c o n c l u d e a n o t h e r c o n tr a c t f o r 4 3 m i ll io n a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 6 s h e i m p lo r e s E s k o m a g a i n a s s h e d id p r e v io u s ly i n A u g u s t t h a t : “ E s k o m ’s c u r r e n t s p o n s o r s h ip d e a l w i th t h e T N A s h o u l d b e h e l d in a b e y a n c e p e n d in g t h e r e l e a s e o f m y p r o v is io n a l r e p o r t a s w e l l a s t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e f a c t f i n d in g r e v ie w b y th e B o a r d . ” 10 Do you see that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r Ts o ts i , y o u r s t a te m e n t o f f a c t a n d y o u r r o u n d r o b i n r e s o lu t io n t h a t w a s c ir c u la t e d t o th e B o a r d d i d n o t r e f e r t o t h is a t a ll . D i d i t? MR TSOTSI: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Did you - do you not think it - you ought to h a v e c o n v e y e d t o t h e n e w B o a r d t h a t t h is w a s a m a t te r t h a t w a s r e c e i v i n g t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a n d th a t s h e h a d r e q u e s t e d t h a t y o u h o ld i n a b e y a n c e y o u r d e c is i o n u n ti l s h e h a d 20 released her report on these matters? M R T S O T S I : I t c o u ld h a v e b e e n u s e fu l t o - t o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : To in f o r m t h e B o a r d , b u t i n t e r m s o f w h a t t h e c o n t e n t o f w h a t s h e is a d d r e s s i n g h e r e C h a ir. W h e n I a s k e d o u r l a w y e r s - i n t e r n a l le g a l p e o p le - h o w d o y o u r e s p o n d t o th i s , b e c a u s e I - I n o te d t h i s i n Page 150 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 p a r t ic u l a r a n d I s a i d . T h e r e i s a s i g n e d c o n tr a c t i n t h e h a n d s o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a n d I s a id T N A . H o w d o y o u g o t o t h e m a n d s a y c a n w e h o l d t h is c o n tr a c t in a b e y a n c e a n d I d id n o t q u i t e u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h o ld i n g a c o n t r a c t i n abeyance means. I had to ask. I u n d e r s t o o d i t t o m e a n t o h a l t th e c o n tr a c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: S o I w a s to l d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t a b l e t o p e r f o r m t h a t p a r t ic u l a r fu n c t io n - w h a te v e r i t w a s - t o h o l d t h e c o n tr a c t i n a b e y a n c e . 10 T h a t is s o m e th in g t h e y c o u l d n o t d o , b e c a u s e t h e c o n tr a c t i s a lr e a d y commenced. So the response that I was looking for was to say can we t h e n c o m p ly w i t h w h a t t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r is a s k i n g u s h e r e a n d th e response I got was that we could not. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : I - I d o n o t r e c a ll h o w I r e s p o n d e d t o th is in a l e t te r, b u t I - I d o r e m e m b e r d e a li n g w i t h t h i s is s u e o f a b e y a n c e , b e c a u s e I d i d n o t understand what it was about … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : A n d li k e I s a y w h a t I w a s to ld w a s t h a t i t m e a n s h o l d i n g 20 t h e c o n tr a c t. L i k e s u s p e n d in g i t . S o - s o t o s p e a k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Mr Ts o ts i, j u s t o n e o r t w o fi n a l q u e s ti o n s . Wa s it e v e r c o n s id e r e d b y t h e B o a r d to a p p r o a c h TN A a n d s a y t o T N A t h is c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d w i t h o u t t h e r e q u is i t e a u th o r it y a n d a t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e w a s r e m o v e d fr o m th e c o n tr a c t d e s p i t e le g a l a d v ic e w i t h i n Es k o m a n d w e w a n t to r e n e g o ti a t e a n e w c o n t r a c t ? Page 151 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : N o . T h a t is - th a t n e v e r c a m e u p . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: That did not come up. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u t h i n k i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n a n o p ti o n ? MR TSOTSI: In fa c t i t w a s a n o p t io n i n - i n a s e n s e . In that it was m e n ti o n e d i n th e L e d w a b a M a z w a i R e p o r t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: B u t w h a t th e y s a i d - w h a t t h e l a w y e r s a i d w a s t h a t i t w o u ld b e d e p e n d e n t o n th e g o o d w il l … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : O f T N A a n d I a t t h a t t i m e I w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t I d i d n o t th in k Es k o m w o u ld s e e a n y g o o d w il l fr o m T N A u n d e r t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s a s u b s t a n t i a l s u p p o r t e r o f T N A . W a s i t not? M R T S O T S I : Ye s , b u t t h e n i t w il l b e E s k o m ’s i n i ti a ti v e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR TSOTSI: To h a v e t o g o t o T N A a n d s a y c a n w e r e n e g o ti a t e th e c o n tr a c t f o r t h e s e v a r io u s r e a s o n s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r Ts o ts i , a la s t q u e s t io n fr o m m y s id e . A t n o p o i n t d id y o u - th is is a q u e s t i o n . D i d y o u a t a n y p o i n t r e c e iv e a d v ic e t h a t y o u c o u ld h a v e g o n e to c o u r t t o s e t a s i d e t h e c o n tr a c t to e x tr ic a t e y o u r s e l f fr o m i t , b e c a u s e i t h a d b e e n i r r e g u l a r ly c o n c l u d e d ? MR TSOTSI: No. T h a t a d v ic e w e d id n o t g e t a n d I - I d i d n o t k n o w there was such a thing … Page 152 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R T S O T S I : B u t I u n d e r s t o o d m u c h - m u c h la t e r t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t , b u t w e d i d n o t g e t th a t a d v ic e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . C h a ir th o s e a r e o u r q u e s ti o n s . I - I h a v e b e e n in f o r m e d b y t h e l a w y e r s fo r M r Ts o t s i t h a t t h e y w o u l d lik e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to r e - e x a m i n e o n t w o o r t h r e e a s p e c ts , b u t t h e y h a v e r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e y m a y b e a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o d o s o a t t h e commencement to m o r r o w morning. We are quite close to the conclusion time. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. N o . T h a t is fi n e . A t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f M r Ts o t s i ’s e v id e n c e y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t h e m a y h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f m o r e th in g s t h a t th e C o m m i s s io n w o u l d l ik e t o h e a r a b o u t t h a n w h a t y o u w e r e g o in g to a s k … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H i m a b o u t t o d a y. D o - d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e p l a n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n - h e c o m e s b a c k i n r e g a r d to s u c h m a t t e r s i s i n p la c e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t - it c e r t a i n ly is . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a n a s p e c t o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s t h a t a r e b e i n g c o n d u c t e d a n d w il l b e p r e s e n t e d in t h e n e x t Es k o m s e s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : In P h a s e 2 o f Es k o m ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . Th a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Ye s . Page 153 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. N o . T h a t is fi n e . I t h i n k I - I m a y h a v e o n e o r t w o q u e s t io n s fo r M r Ts o ts i . when you received Mr E s s a ’s C a n I ta k e y o u b a c k t o th e t i m e email about the a l lo c a t io n of r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o r a l lo c a t io n o f M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d t o v a r io u s c o m m i t t e e s a n d w h e n y o u r e c e i v e d th e M i n is te r ’s a l lo c a t io n ? N o w is t h e r e a n y M e m b e r o f th e B o a r d o r a n y M e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d o r a n y o th e r p e r s o n e v e n i f t h e y a r e n o t M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w i t h w h o m y o u e v e r s h a r e d t h is i n fo r m a ti o n t o s a y y o u k n o w w h a t s o m e t h i n g v e r y s tr a n g e h a p p e n e d . 10 I g o t a n e m a i l fr o m s o m e b o d y o u t s i d e o f E s k o m t e l li n g m e th a t th e a l lo c a ti o n s s h o u ld b e l ik e th is a n d t h e n l a te r o n I g o t e x a c t ly t h e s a m e a l lo c a t io n s fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r. Is th e r e s o m e b o d y e ls e w i th w h o m y o u e v e r s h a r e d t h a t k i n d o f i n fo r m - t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w h o c o u ld b e a p p r o a c h e d t o - a n d m i g h t b e a b l e t o - to s a y y e s . A c tu a lly M r Ts o t s i s h a r e d t h is w it h m e a n d m a y b e I w a s s h o c k e d h o w - h o w th a t c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d . M R T S O T S I : C h a ir m a n , I d o n o t - I d o n o t r e c a ll th a t t h e r e is s o m e o n e I - I shared … C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h w h o m y o u s h a r e d th a t? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . W h a t - w h a t I d i d . I h a v e o r I h a d a n E x e c u tiv e w h o 20 w o r k e d in m y o ffic e . W h o w a s i n my o ffi c e fu ll ti m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R T S O T S I : A n d h e w o u l d w o r k w i th m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : O n - o n th is k i n d o f t h i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . Page 154 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 M R T S O T S I : A n d q u it e h o n e s t ly I d o n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r h e w a s a c t u a l ly t h e r e , b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h is w a s D e c e m b e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . T h e r e w a s a s k e l e t o n s t a ff . M R T S O T S I : A n d a l o t o f p e o p l e h a d g o n e o n le a v e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : A n d I d o n o t r e c a ll t h a t h e w a s a r o u n d a t t h e t i m e w h e n t h is w a s h a p p e n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : I - I c o u l d h a v e C h a ir. I c o u l d h a v e i n p a s s i n g j u s t s a i d 10 t o h i m . H e y m a n l is t e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : T h i s is w h a t i s g o i n g o n . I - I d o n o t r e a l ly r e c a l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a s k b e c a u s e i t mi g h t h e l p if t h e - i f t h e r e w a s , b e c a u s e m y o w n t h i n k i n g is t h a t i t is t h e k in d o f th i n g t h a t m i g h t s ti c k in s o m e b o d y ’s m in d . E s p e c i a lly i f i t w a s a B o a r d M e m b e r, b u t m a y b e w i t h s o m e b o d y e l s e t o s a y h o w - h o w i s i t p o s s i b le . U n l e s s t h e M i n i s t e r a n d M r E s s a h a d s o m e c o m m u n ic a ti o n a b o u t t h i s . 20 MR TSOTSI: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f a ft e r to d a y y o u - y o u d o r e c a l l t h a t y o u s h a r e d i t w i t h s o m e b o d y o r i f th e E x e c u t iv e th a t y o u s a i d w a s w o r k i n g i n y o u r o ffic e . If h e - h e r e m e m b e r s p l e a s e g e t i n t o u c h w i th t h e C o m m i s s i o n . S o th a t s o m e b o d y c a n i n t e r v ie w th a t p e r s o n a n d t a k e a s ta t e m e n t. M R T S O T S I : I w il l d o th a t C h a ir. Page 155 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Th e r e w a s a - o k a y. M a y b e t h i s - y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f w h a t I a m g o in g t o a s k is s o m e t h i n g t h a t b e l o n g s t o t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a r e s t il l g o in g to - t o b r i n g . E a r l ie r o n w h e n y o u w e r e t e l li n g m e w h a t tr a n s p ir e d w h e n y o u m e t w i th Mr To n y G u p ta a n d h e w a s a s k in g y o u a b o u t t h e c o n tr a c t a n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . Yo u s a id t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o h i m h a v i n g s a i d s o m e t h i n g . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r w h i c h r e a ffir m e d w h a t y o u w e r e t h i n k in g o r s o m e t h i n g q u i te - q u i te m o r e r e m a r k a b l e la t e r o n . Did you recall talking about that? 10 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . Ye s . I d o . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t w i ll c o m e w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a r e s t il l g o in g to b r in g ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s C h a ir, b e c a u s e I a lr e a d y - a s M s H o f m e y r w a s s a y in g I h a v e a lr e a d y - I a m a b o u t to s u b m i t a n o t h e r a ff id a v i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d i t w i ll c o v e r t h a t. MR TSOTSI: And I have had a meeting with the … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : W it h t h e C o m m is s i o n o n t h is … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M R T S O T S I : A n d w e h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h th a t m a t e r ia l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. MR TSOTSI: A s i t a p p e a r e d a l s o i n m y - i n my s u b m is s io n t o t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R T S O T S I : S o I w il l b e g o in g b a c k to t h a t … Page 156 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o . T h a n k y o u . MR TSOTSI: A n d I d a r e s a y C h a ir m a n t h a t i t l o o k s l ik e i n m y r e tir e m e n t I a m w o r k i n g f o r t h e C o m m is s io n . Maybe - maybe there s h o u l d b e s o m e c o n c e n tr a ti o n o f s o m e k in d o r a n o t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll s o m e - s o m e p e o p l e s a y t h e y b e c o m e b u s i e r a ft e r r e tir e m e n t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n b e f o r e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Ts o ts i . T h a n k y o u f o r c o m i n g to s h a r e w i th th e C o m m is s io n w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t 10 t h e s e m a t t e r s . W e w il l s e e y o u a g a i n , b u t n o w y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M R T S O T S I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, i f I m a y j u s t r a is e o n e p o i n t . I t w il l li te r a ll y b e a m i n u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e S e c r e ta r i a t h a s i n f o r m e d u s o v e r t h e course they of to d a y that have r e c e iv e d correspondence fr o m M r G i g a b a in d ic a t i n g t h a t h e h a d n o t b e e n g i v e n p r i o r n o t ic e a b o u t t h e t e s ti m o n y o f Mr Ts o ts i t o d a y i n s o f a r a s t h a t q u e s t io n o f M r M a tj il a ’s 20 a p p o i n t m e n t is c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H is a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t . H e w a s g iv e n n o p r i o r n o t ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld l ik e to j u s t i n d ic a te w h y th a t is t h e Page 157 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 case. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It is because no aspect of M r M a tj il a ’s appointment … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t th a t e v i d e n c e t h a t M r Ts o t s i g a v e t o d a y w a s tr a v e r s e d i n h i s a ffi d a v i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e s a r e s e n t o u t b a s e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t it is k n o w n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To t h e L e g a l Te a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n w ill b e g iv e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n e t h e l e s s c l e a r l y it h a s c o m e t o M r G i g a b a ’s a tt e n ti o n . H a d i t n o t I - I h a d a c t u a l ly a t t h e t i m e s e n t a n o t e t o m y le a r n e d fr i e n d , M r M b ik i w a t h a t w e s h o u l d d o a R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e f o ll o w i n g t h e e v i d e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e h a s b e e n a l e r te d to i t a n d w e w i ll e n g a g e h i m a b o u t a n y s u b m i s s i o n h e w is h e s to m a k e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d j u s t w a n t to m a k e t h a t n o t e p u b l ic a l ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o . T h a t i s f i n e . W e w il l a d j o u r n t h e n a n d th e n to m o r r o w w e w il l s ta r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e . Is th a t r i g h t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t o d a y t h e n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s a r e a d jo u r n e d . Page 158 of 159 23 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 204 R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 4 J A N U A R Y 2 0 2 0 Page 159 of 159