C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

24 JUNE 2019

D AY 11 9

20

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
PROCEEDINGS ON 24 JUNE 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d M o r n i n g Ms H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ar e w e r e a d y th is m o r n in g ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I p r o p o s e j u s t b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e w i t h
t h e fi r s t w i tn e s s t o j u s t g iv e a s e n s e o f w h e r e w e a r e i n t h e a v i a ti o n
evidence.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Because we have been running for about a

week and we have got about a week and a bit left.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e h a v e b e e n s o m e c h a n g e s in s o m e o f t h e
lo g i s t ic s s o I th o u g h t i t u s e fu l j u s t to t a k e a m o m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And take stock.

I n r e l a ti o n t o th e f o u r

in v e s t i g a t io n a r e a s w h a t e v id e n c e w e h a v e h e a r d a n d w h a t is s til l to

20

come.

S o C h a ir w it h y o u r l e a v e I w i ll c o m m e n c e o f t h e fir s t o f t h o s e

areas.

T h e fir s t a r e a o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n d e a l t w i t h t h e 1 5 b i ll io n c a p it a l

r a i s i n g e x e r c i s e t h a t S A A e m b a r k e d u p o n th e 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 .

We have

h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h r e e w i tn e s s e s s o f a r i n r e la t io n t o t h a t a s p e c t
o f in v e s ti g a t io n .
N h a n ts i .

T h e y w e r e M s S t i m p e l , Mr Va n D e r M e r w e a n d M s

W e s t ill h a v e t h e e v i d e n c e to r e c e iv e fr o m M r M a h la n g u ,

a r r a n g e m e n ts h a v e b e e n m a d e a n d h is e v id e n c e w il l b e r e c e i v e d l a t e r

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h is w e e k .

T h a t w il l c o n c l u d e f o r t h is p h a s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e s e s s i o n

t h e w i t n e s s e s i n r e l a t i o n t o th a t a s p e c t. A s I i n d ic a te d a t th e o p e n i n g
o f th e a v i a t i o n e v i d e n c e t h e r e i s a n i n te n ti o n to h a v e a s e c o n d
e v i d e n c e s e s s i o n l a te r in t h e y e a r w h e r e t h e f i n a l s tr a n d s o f t h a t
in v e s t i g a t io n w i ll b e p ic k e d u p . C h a ir t h e s e c o n d a r e a o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n
is th e N o r th W e s t g r o u n d h a n d li n g tr a n s a c t io n s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n
lo o k in g a t o v e r t h e la s t fe w d a y s .

W e h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e e v id e n c e o f

f o u r w it n e s s e s in r e la t io n t o t h o s e t r a n s a c t io n s b e t w e e n t h e N o r th W e s t
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t , S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s a n d t h e n K o r e n e k e
10

amongst other management companies.

The evidence has come from

M r N g w e n y a , M r P h ir i , M s P h a t u d i a n d M s Tl a ts a n a .

Chair there are

t w o r e m a in i n g w i t n e s s e s in r e la t io n to t h a t a r e a o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n .
T h e fir s t o f th o s e is Mr Vil j o e n w h o w i ll b e g i v i n g e v i d e n c e to d a y a n d
t h e s e c o n d i s f r o m a n o th e r c o m p a n y w h o r e c e iv e d p a y m e n t s o f s o m e o f
t h e p r o c e e d s o f t h o s e m o n i e s t h a t c a m e o u t o f th e N o r t h W e s t
G o v e r n m e n t t h r o u g h S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s a n d i n t o K o r e n e k e .
t h a t w i ll b e c o m p l e t e d b y t h e e n d o f t h is w e e k .

And

T h e t h ir d a r e a o f

in v e s t i g a t io n C h a ir is a n a r e a t h a t lo o k s a t j e t f u e l p r o c u r e m e n t
b e t w e e n S A A , S A E x p r e s s o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d a n e n ti ty c a l le d E M L
20

E n e r g y.

C h a ir th a t e v i d e n c e w il l c o m m e n c e t o d a y.

I t w i ll c o m m e n c e

a ft e r M s Vi lj o e n h a s c o n c l u d e d h e r e v i d e n c e w i t h th e e v id e n c e o f M s
L o o c k w h o i s t h e a ir p o r t ’s c o o r d in a to r f o r S o u t h A f r i c a n Ex p r e s s a n d
t h a t w i ll b e f o ll o w e d b y t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r Va u g h a n w h o is t h e h e a d o f
f u e l m a n a g e m e n t a t S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s .

C h a ir j u s t a p r a c t ic a l

m a t t e r o n o u r e s t i m a ti o n f o r t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s i t is u n li k e ly t h a t w e

Page 3 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w i ll g e t t o M r Va u g h a n ’s e v i d e n c e .

W e e n v i s a g e th a t t h e d a y w i ll b e

o c c u p i e d b y t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s Vi lj o e n a n d M s L o o c k . M r Va u g h a n is
h e r e , h e w a s s u m m o n e d , h e is i n a tt e n d a n c e . I n t h e li g h t o f th e h i g h
u n li k e li h o o d th a t w e w il l g e t t o h i m t o d a y I w o n d e r e d i f w e m a y r e q u e s t
t h a t h e b e e x c u s e d t o r e t u r n f ir s t t h i n g t o m o r r o w f o r h is e v id e n c e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e fi n e . W h a t is y o u r a n tic ip a ti o n o f w h a t
ti m e w e m i g h t b e d o n e w i t h th e o th e r w it n e s s e s M s Vi lj o e n a n d M s
Loock.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

C h a i r w e w il l b e a b le t o g i v e y o u a b e tt e r

sense.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n t h e lu n c h b r e a k i f y o u d o n o t m i n d . I t r e a lly
d o e s d e p e n d h o w lo n g M s Vi lj o e n t a k e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s S e p te m b e r w il l b e p r e s e n t i n g t h e e v i d e n c e
of Ms Loock.

S h e h a s i n d i c a t e d t o m e p r e v io u s ly th a t s h e t h in k s s h e

w i ll n e e d a b o u t t h r e e t o f o u r h o u r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o it d o e s d e p e n d o n h o w s w i f tl y w e f i n is h M s
20

Vi lj o e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t t h e h o p e w o u l d b e t o f i n is h M s L o o c k

t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t e v e r.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d – b u t w e w il l g iv e y o u s e n s e i f w e m a y a t
lu n c h ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A b o u t h o w m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f a t a ll p a s t f o u r w e t h in k w e m ig h t n e e d t o s it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t is f in e . I f n e e d b e w e c a n s it b e y o n d
four o’clock.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir w e a r e i n d e b t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a i n s o th a t w e tr y a n d fi n a l is e t h e ir e v id e n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ex c e ll e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r Va u g h a n c a n b e e x c u s e d u n til t o m o r r o w
if h e m a y ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M r Va u g h a n – w h e r e is h e ?

Okay you are

excused from attendance today please come back tomorrow and be
h e r e a t n in e o ’c lo c k s o th a t i n c a s e w e d e c i d e to s t a r t a t n i n e y o u a r e
a v a i la b le .
20

M R M A R K VA U G H A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I w i ll d o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir j u s t to c o m p le t e th a t

t h ir d a r e a o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n Mr Va u g h a n w ill g iv e u s a f t e r M s L o o c k ’s
e v i d e n c e t h e o v e r v i e w o f t h e je t p r o c u r e m e n t s p a c e – j e t fu e l
p r o c u r e m e n t s p a c e a n d t h a t w il l b e c o m e a n i m p o r t a n t le a d i n t o t h e

Page 5 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
a s p e c t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t d e a ls w i t h t h e I D C . I h a d h i g h li g h te d i n t h e
o p e n i n g t h a t t h e r e is a n a s p e c t o f t h i s p r o c u r e m e n t th a t i n v o lv e s th e
I D C b e c a u s e it w a s o ff t h e b a c k o f c o n tr a c ts t h a t w e r e o b ta i n e d o r w e r e
a n t ic i p a te d to b e o b t a i n e d fr o m S A A a n d S A Ex p r e s s t h a t a fu n d i n g
a p p lic a ti o n w a s m a d e to t h e I D C . S o t h e r e w i ll a ls o b e fu r t h e r e v id e n c e
in t h a t r e g a r d . A n d t h e n f in a lly C h a ir t h e f o u r t h a r e a o f in v e s ti g a t io n
d e a lt w i t h b r o a d t h e m e s o f g o v e r n a n c e a n d t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a s
f o c u s s e d a n d t h e e v i d e n c e w i ll s h o w t h e e x t e n t o f b o a r d i n t e r f e r e n c e i n
procurement matters at South African Airways over a period of time
10

w h ic h i n v o l v e d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w il l b e h e a r d n u m e r o u s
d e m a n d s m a d e f o r t h e a l lo c a t io n s o f c o n tr a c ts t o c e r t a i n e n ti ti e s a n d
a ls o e v i d e n c e fr o m w i t n e s s e s w h o e n d e a v o u r to s t a n d u p to w h a t th e y
r e g a r d e d a s u n la w f u l d e m a n d s a n d th e n w e r e s u m m a r il y s u s p e n d e d .
C h a ir t h a t e v id e n c e w ill c o m m e n c e o n W e d n e s d a y a n d i t w il l r u n u n ti l
M o n d a y o f n e x t w e e k w i th a n in t e r l u d e o n T h u r s d a y t o g o b a c k t o s o m e
o f t h e r e m a i n in g w i tn e s s e s . B u t th a t C h a i r w i th y o u r l e a v e i s o u r p l a n
f o r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f th e a v i a ti o n e v i d e n c e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A : N o t h a t i s i n o r d e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

C h a ir th e n w i t h o u t fu r t h e r a d o if w e c o u l d

s w e a r M s Vi lj o e n in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : K a l a n d r a Vi lj o e n .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?

Page 6 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do not.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l
g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h ; i f s o
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o h e lp m e G o d .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir w e h a v e – C h a ir w e

a lr e a d y e n t e r e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vi lj o e n ’s b u n d le i n t o t h e r e c o r d a s E x h ib i t

D D 9 w e d id th a t in th e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e o f M s Tl a ts a n a o n th e
weekend.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h e r e w i ll n o t b e a n e e d to s o a g a in .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M s Vi lj o e n ju s t to o r i e n ta t e y o u in fr o n t o f
y o u y o u h a v e a s o r t o f s o f t c o v e r f il e w h ic h i s – c o m p r is e s y o u r v a r i o u s
a ffi d a v i ts a n d s t a t e m e n ts . I t w i ll b e r e f e r r e d t o in t h e c o u r s e o f t o d a y
a s E x h i b i t D D 9 th a t is n e c e s s a r y j u s t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e c o r d .
A n d th e n y o u a ls o h a v e n e x t to y o u a l e g is la ti o n b u n d l e . C h a i r w e h a v e
p r e p a r e d a l e g i s l a ti o n b u n d le t h a t m a y b e c o m e r e l e v a n t in t h e c o u r s e o f

Page 7 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t o d a y ’s e v id e n c e . I f I m a y b e g l e a v e t o h a n d o n e u p to y o u ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vi l jo e n a lr e a d y h a s h e r c o p y th e r e .

And

t h e n t h e r e is ju s t a l s o n e x t to M s Vi lj o e n t h e b u n d l e o f Mr N g w e n y a ’s
evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e m a y b e a p o i n t a t w h ic h it is r e l e v a n t t o
go there.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t i s E x h i b it D D 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vil jo e n i f I m a y th e n j u s t c o m m e n c e w i th

s o m e a s s is ta n c e i n n a v ig a ti n g y o u r b u n d l e b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r
o f a ff id a v i ts t h a t a r e to b e fo u n d i n t h e b u n d l e th a t h a s b e e n p u t
t o g e th e r f o r y o u r e v id e n c e a n d I w o u l d lik e to j u s t g e t c l a r i ty i n r e l a t i o n
t o s o m e o f t h e m w h e n t h e y w e r e d e p o s e d to a n d a ls o to a s k y o u
w h e t h e r a r e a n y c o r r e c t io n s y o u w o u l d li k e t o m a k e i n a d v a n c e o f y o u r
e v i d e n c e t o a n y o f th e m ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
page 1.

S o l e t u s s t a r t w i t h t h e f ir s t t h a t a p p e a r s a t

Th a t is a n a ffi d a v i t a s I h a v e i t t h a t y o u p r o v id e d t o t h e

c o m m i s s io n a n d i f y o u g o t o t h e e n d o f t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u w il l s e e a t
p a g e 1 6 i t w a s d e p o s e d t o o n t h e 2 3 M a y 2 0 1 9 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a r e th e r e a n y c o r r e c t io n s y o u w a n t t o m a k e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t o t h a t a ffi d a v it ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e s e c o n d a ffi d a v i t w h i c h is a c t u a lly a n

a n n e x u r e t o t h a t a ffi d a v i t w h ic h y o u p r o v i d e d to th e c o m m is s i o n is a n
a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u d i d t o t h e th e n F S B . I f y o u g o to p a g e 4 0 , 4 0 o f t h e
b u n d l e in f r o n t o f y o u y o u w i ll f in d – i t i s e n t it l e d ‘ R e s p o n s e t o
s u m m o n s is s u e d u n d e r c a s e n u m b e r 2 0 1 8 / 0 2 / 6 6 8 0 ’ b u t i t i s a n a ff i d a v i t
a s I h a v e i t t h a t y o u d e p o s e d to b e fo r e a c o m m is s i o n o f o a t h s o n th e 2 6
F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 . Yo u w i ll p ic k t h a t u p a t p a g e 4 6 , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a r e t h e r e a n y c o r r e c t io n s y o u w o u l d lik e t o
m a k e in t h a t a ffi d a v i t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n t h e f i n a l a ff id a v i t I a m

c a l li n g i t a n a ff id a v i t w i th h e s i t a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h is th e
a ffi d a v i t

does

not

appear

to

have

been

deposed

to

b e fo r e

a

c o m m i s s io n e r a l b e i t t h a t i t w a s s ig n e d y o u w i ll f i n d t h a t a t p a g e 9 1 , 9 1
o f t h a t b u n d le , d o y o u h a v e t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e i t is a n a ff id a v i t r e l a te d
t o t h e M a fik e n g c a s e n u m b e r 4 9 0 8 / 2 0 1 7 a n d i f w e g o i n t h a t – I a m
g o i n g t o c a ll it a n a ff id a v i t t o p a g e 9 3 , c a n y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h a t is y o u r
s ig n a tu r e o n t h a t p a g e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e d a t e a t t h e b o t to m is g i v e n b u t w i t h o u t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
a y e a r i t is 1 4 D e c e m b e r, fr o m m y r e a d i n g o f t h i s a ff id a v i t a n d p la c i n g i t
in c o n t e x t I t a k e i t t o h a v e b e e n s i g n e d o n t h e 1 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 , is
that correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a g a i n a r e th e r e a n y c o r r e c ti o n s y o u w o u l d
lik e to m a k e t o t h a t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . Yo u h a v e c o n fir m e d t h e c o n te n ts o f
t h is a ff id a v i t th e r e fo r e u n d e r o a th a lb e it t h a t th is w a s n o t c o m m i s s i o n e d
10

a t t h e ti m e s o j u s t fo r t h e e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e
p r o c e e d i n g s I w il l r e f e r t o i t a ls o a s a n a ff i d a v i t .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I th i n k y o u a s k e d h e r i f s h e c o n fir m s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And she – I saw she nodded.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t s h e c o n f ir m e d i t. S o y o u w il l
h a v e t o p le a s e j u s t a r t ic u l a t e y o u r c o n f ir m a ti o n s o th a t t h e m ic r o p h o n e
can …

20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w il l d o t h a t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o ju s t f o r th e r e c o r d ’s p u r p o s e s y o u c o n fi r m

t h a t th e c o n t e n t s o f t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 9 1 o f t h e b u n d le
c o n ta in s s t a t e m e n t s t h a t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t to th e b e s t o f y o u r
knowledge?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : C a n I a d d d e t a i ls to t h i s b e c a u s e I d id n o t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w r i t e th is a ffi d a v i t o r t h is s t a te m e n t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Someone wrote it for me, Mr Jan Judeel

w r o t e t h a t h e a s k e d m e to s i g n it .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Right.

L e t u s g e t a fe w o f t h o s e d e ta il s

b e c a u s e t h e y m a y w e ll b e i m p o r ta n t .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y s o r r y my b u n d l e h a s n o w f a l l e n a p a r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e l e t u s – le t u s d o t h i s . L e t u s d o i t t h i s
w a y.
10

T h e a ffi d a v it a s i t s t a n d s I t h i n k y o u h a v e c o n fir m e d th a t i t is

correct, is that right?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t s a i d s u g g e s t t h a t y o u fe e l t h a t
t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r f a c ts t h a t n e e d to b e a d d e d .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W h ic h i s c o v e r e d in m y s e c o n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h a r e n o t – w h ic h a r e n o t – w h ic h a r e n o t t h e r e .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e th e n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

I a m i n d e b t e d to y o u .

So

t h e r e m a y b e m o r e b a c k g r o u n d y o u w o u l d li k e t o g iv e a n d w e w i ll f i n d
20

t h a t i n th e o th e r a ffi d a v i ts b u t i ts c o n t e n ts a r e c o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a i r I d o n o te t h a t M s Vi lj o e n is
s tr u g g li n g w i th …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e m a n n e r in w h ic h t h e fi l e h a s b e e n p u t

Page 11 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t o g e th e r. I h a v e a s k e d m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d M s B u t h e le z i i f s h e w o u l d n o t
m a y b e j u s t ta k e a s p a r e c o p y o f t h a t f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w e h a v e a n d p l a c e i t i n a f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h ic h t h e n m i g h t n o t c r e a t e t h e d i ff ic u l ty o f

pages coming apart.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I h a v e g o t 1 4 p a g e s t o f ix .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : My w o r r y is th a t i t m i g h t o c c u r a g a in .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s it m i g h t o c c u r a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t m a y s i m p ly b e e a s i e r t o p u t i t i n a l e v e r
a r c h fi le .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja no let us do it that way yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w h i le t h a t i s b e i n g d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vi l jo e n y o u d o n o t n e e d to t r o u b l e y o u r s e l f
w i t h t h o s e p a p e r s y o u w il l g e t a r e p l a c e m e n t fi le n o w t h a t w il l b e e a s i e r
to…
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Done.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To tu r n o v e r.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I a m d o n e . It is g o in g in , i t i s g o i n g i n a n d
t h e n I a m d o n e a n d i t is fi x e d a n d I w i ll m a k e s u r e i t d o e s n o t c o m e
undone.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o s h e is v e r y – s h e is v e r y p a s s i o n a t e a b o u t w a n t in g
that one.

Page 12 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is fi n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s le a v e i t lik e th a t .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It lo o k s p r e t ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e p r o m is e s i t w i ll n o t c o m e a p a r t a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t w il l n o t c o m e a p a r t a g a i n w e l l w e w il l h a v e

on standby just in case.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t p r o m i s e is u n d e r o a t h s o …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l h o l d y o u t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vil jo e n y o u w e r e a b o u t h o w e v e r t o g iv e u s
s o m e b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e g e n e s i s o f t h a t l a s t a ff id a v i t.
Mr Judeel.

Yo u m e n t io n e d

C a n y o u t e l l u s t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s i n w h ic h i t c a m e t o b e

p r o d u c e d , t h i s a ff id a v i t a t p a g e 9 1 ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Mr Judeel called me and asked for a

m e e ti n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n w a s t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m o r e o r l e s s a r o u n d t h is
ti m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d te ll u s b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d w h o h e w a s o r h e i s ?
MS

KALANDRA

VILJOEN:

He

p r e s e n te d

in v e s t i g a t o r.

Page 13 of 228

himself as

a

p r iv a t e

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d h e s a y t o y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I n a l l h o n e s ty I fo r g o t a b o u t t h i s u n t il y o u

s e n t m e th is s t a t e m e n t . B u t i t w a s a q u ic k m e e ti n g a t a M u g g a n d B e a n
a n d h e a s k e d m e a b o u t th e tr a n s a c ti o n s .

I w e n t a n d I l o o k e d a t t h is

tr a n s a c ti o n s . H e to o k n o t e s . H e w r o t e t h e a ff id a v i t, h e e m a i le d i t t o m e
a n d th e n I j u s t s i g n e d i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w d i d h e o b t a i n t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e

a tt a c h e d t o i t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I s e n t i t to h i m .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t m e j u s t g e t c le a r.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I – s o r r y I m i g h t h a v e g i v e n it t o h i m b u t j a I
gave it to him.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h a t w a s a t a f a c e t o f a c e m e e ti n g i n

December 2017?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : If m e m o r y s e r v e s m e r ig h t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w e r e c o n t a c t e d , d i d h e m a k e r e f e r e n c e
to a criminal case?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w il l h a v e t o l ie i f I a n s w e r e d t h a t I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r. I t w a s D e c e m b e r w e h a d fa m i l y c o m i n g o v e r fr o m o v e r s e a s
20

s o I h a v e t o – i t w a s a b r i e f m e e t in g a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r if h e m a d e
r e fe r e n c e to i t o r n o t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u s i g n e d t h e a ffi d a v i t d i d y o u l o o k
a t t h e f ir s t p a g e w h ic h s a y s M a fi k e n g C A S 4 9 0 8 .2 0 1 7 ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I d i d s e e i t y e s b u t t h a t d o e s n o t r e a l ly

mean anything to me.

Page 14 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t b u t y o u c o n s id e r e d t h e c o n t e n ts a n d y o u
w e r e s a ti s fi e d w it h th e ir c o r r e c t n e s s a n d s o y o u s i g n e d i t , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t s o m e p o i n t e i t h e r p r io r to th a t m e e t in g
o r t h e r e a f t e r y o u g a v e M r J u d e e l th e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h a r e t h e n
a tt a c h e d to th a t s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s o r i g i n a te fr o m
y o u , c o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

D i d y o u m e e t w i t h h i m a n d a M s C a p t a in

Mogotse?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e r e y o u a w a r e i n th e e v id e n c e o v e r t h e

w e e k e n d t h a t Ms T la t s a n a in d ic a t e d t h a t M r J u d e e l h a d s a i d t o h e r th a t
h e a t te n d e d w i t h C a p ta in M o g o ts e w h e n h e m e t w i th y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I s a w i t a n d n o h e w a s n o t w i t h C a p t a in

Mogotse
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y – w h y d id y o u a g r e e t o m e e t w i th h i m
a n d d e p o s e t o a n a ffi d a v it t h e n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : H e a s k e d v e r y n ic e ly ?
20

CHAIRPERSON: What was that answer?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : H e a s k e d v e r y n ic e ly. C a n y o u p l e a s e m e e t
me?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But you were under no compulsion to do so –

y o u d id n o t h a v e a s e n s e t h a t i t h a d a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h a c r i m in a l

Page 15 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
in v e s t i g a t io n .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r a n y s u c h t h i n g .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e w i ll r e t u r n t o t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e i n th e

e v i d e n c e th a n k y o u . M s Vi l jo e n I w o u ld l i k e t o b e g in a t p a g e 1 t h e n o f
y o u r a ff i d a v i t to t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d in p a r a g r a p h 3 o n t h a t p a g e y o u
s t a r t t o e x p l a i n t o u s a b o u t a n e n ti ty c a l l e d As s e t M o v e m e n t Fi n a n c i a l
S e r v ic e s C C . C h a i r w e h a v e p r e v i o u s l y i n t h e e v i d e n c e b e e n r e f e r r i n g
10

t o t h i s e n t i ty a s A M F S w e m a y d o t h a t in t h e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e b u t
t h a t w ill t h e n b e a r e f e r e n c e t o t h i s C C w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d y o u
e s t a b li s h e d t o r u n t h e b u s in e s s o f …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d te ll u s w h a t e x a c t ly t h a t b u s in e s s w a s a n d
f o r t h a t p u r p o s e I w o u l d li k e u s t o g o t o t h e c o m p a n y p r o f il e t h a t y o u
h a v e p r o v i d e d i n v a r i o u s o f t h e s e a ff id a v it s .

There are a number of

c o p i e s C h a i r in t h e p a p e r s . T h e b e s t c o p y I c o u l d fi n d a t p a g e 4 8 s o i f
we go to page 48.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w il l s e e a 2 5 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 c o m p a n y

p r o f il e , c a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t t h a t is y o u r p r o fi le o f t h e c o m p a n y M s
Vi lj o e n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s i t is C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then if we go over to page 50, 50 you

u s e fu ll y g iv e a d e s c r i p ti o n o f y o u r b u s i n e s s t h e r e i n t h e to p p a r a g r a p h .

Page 16 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
F o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t o d a y ’s e v i d e n c e c a n y o u ju s t e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t
that business was?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It w a s a c a s h i n t r a n s i t b u s in e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I t m e a n s th a t i f a b u s i n e s s w o u l d n e e d

m o n e y w e w o u ld d e l iv e r t h e f u n d s fo r t h e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d c a n y o u j u s t g iv e u s a s e n s e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y y o u w o u ld t a k e f u n d s f r o m a b u s i n e s s t o

d e li v e r t h e – o r c a s h f r o m a b u s i n e s s .
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e w il l p i c k u p th e f u n d s fr o m a b a n k a n d
t h e n d e liv e r it t o c l i e n ts t h a t m i g h t n e e d fu n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d v ic e v e r s a ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : L ik e a G 4 S . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d v ic e v e r s a ?

S o y o u w o u ld a ls o t a k e fr o m a

b u s i n e s s t o g o a n d b a n k fo r t h e m ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W e d i d n o t – w e d i d n o t r e a lly d o

c o l l e c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t d o t h e c o l le c ti o n f r o m t h e b u s i n e s s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u o n l y d id o n e w a y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e ju s t h a v e t h a t a g a i n . Yo u s a i d y o u d i d
n o t r e a l ly d o c o l l e c ti o n s . D id y o u e v e r d o c o l l e c ti o n s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o t to m y r e c o l le c t io n .

Page 17 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u . A n d th e n ju s t i n t e r m s o f t h e

in d u s tr y i n w h i c h y o u r b u s in e s s w a s o p e r a ti n g h o w b i g is t h e m a r k e t ?
D i d y o u h a v e l o ts o f c o m p e ti t o r s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I w o u l d s a y i t is b i g .

G 4 S , Fi d e l i ty, C o i n ,

S B V i t is a b ig in d u s tr y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d id t h e y a l l o p e r a t e a s i m i l a r b u s i n e s s

m o d e l to y o u r s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I c a n n o t c o m m e n t if th e ir b u s i n e s s m o d e l

w a s t h e s a m e a s m in e .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u r s e n s e i s i t is a b ig m a r k e t a n d t h e r e
a r e a n u m b e r o f c o m p e t i to r s i n i t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u k n o w a t le a s t o f o n e b u s i n e s s t h a t

operated a similar business model do you not? That was your previous
e m p l o y e r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s t h e n a m e o f t h a t e m p lo y e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : R u s t ic S t o n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Thank you.

W e w i ll c o m e b a c k t o j u s t a fe w

m o r e d e t a i ls a b o u t R u s t ic S t o n e i n a m o m e n t b u t I w o u ld l ik e t o
c o n ti n u e o n p a g e 5 0 b e c a u s e o n t h a t p a g e y o u s e t o u t s o m e fu r t h e r
d e t a i ls a b o u t y o u r b u s i n e s s a n d i ts s e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d p a g e 5 0 is b e t t e r t h a n I g u e s s a n o t h e r p a g e ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i t i s h a r d t o b e li e v e I k n o w b e c a u s e 5 0 is
n o t c l e a r a t a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w e m a y s e e k to d o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Is j u s t g e t a b e t t e r c o p y fr o m Ms Vi lj o e n i n d u e
course.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n d u e c o u r s e w e c a n – w e c a n d o w h a t w e c a n w it h
t h is .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a k e d o w i th i t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W i t h t h i s i n d e e d a n d g i v e n t h a t i t is h e r

document.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e i t i s r e l e v a n t fo r u s t o k n o w p r e c is e ly
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s s a i d o n th e p a g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w i ll a s k f o r M s Vi lj o e n ’s a s s is t a n c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If we may proceed on that basis.

A n d Ms

Vi lj o e n th a t ta k e s m e t o t h e n e x t q u e s ti o n w h i c h is m id - w a y d o w n t h e
page

there

is

a

heading

there

w h ic h

I

read

to

be

company

o w n e r s h ip / le g a l e n t it y, is t h a t a c o r r e c t u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t i s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 19 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u s a y u n d e r t h a t a s I h a v e i t A M F S
is r e g is t e r e d a s a C C a n d t h e n i t s a y s a ll r e q u ir e d c e r t i fic a ti o n s w i ll b e
a c q u ir e d a n d m a i n t a in e d a t a ll t i m e s . A n d th e n a ll l e g a l c o m p li a n c e t o
le g i s l a ti o n is a n d w i ll c o n t i n u e t o b e m a i n ta in e d .

Is t h a t a n a c c u r a t e

r e a d in g o f w h a t is r e fl e c t e d t h e r e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w o u l d s a y s o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
c o m p li a n c e .

L e t u s j u s t p a u s e o n t h a t q u e s ti o n o f le g a l

I a s s u m e i t w a s i m p o r t a n t fo r th e o p e r a ti o n o f y o u r

b u s i n e s s th a t y o u e n s u r e d t h a t y o u c o m p l i e d w i t h t h e a p p lic a b l e
10

le g i s l a ti o n , is th a t r i g h t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I f y o u c a n g iv e a n a n s w e r.

r e c o r d h a s to h a v e y o u r a n s w e r v e r b a l ly.
e x p l o r e a b i t w h a t th a t l e g i s l a ti o n w a s .

Thank you.

The

T h e n I w o u l d li k e t o ju s t

W e r e y o u c o m p li a n t w it h t h e

P r iv a t e S e c u r i ty I n d u s tr y R e g u l a ti o n A c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I was yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u j u s t g i v e u s a s e n s e o f w h a t th a t

le g i s l a ti o n r e g u l a te s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w il l h a v e t o c h e c k I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : B u t w e h a d t o b e p a r t o f P S I R A r e g is te r t h e
c o m p a n y u n d e r P S I R A a n d r e g is t e r a ll t h e p e o p l e t h a t w a s w o r k i n g
under PSIRA and we were.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . A n d t h e n l e g is la t io n t h a t is c o ll o q u i a ll y
c a l l e d F I C A t h e Fi n a n c i a l I n t e lli g e n c e C e n tr e A c t , w e r e y o u c o m p l i a n t

Page 20 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w i t h t h a t?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I F I C A’d a l l m y c l ie n ts y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I w o u ld o b t a i n c o p ie s o f th e i r I D ’s , t h e ir

in c o m e t a x n u m b e r s , a l l t h e d e t a i ls r e q u i r e d b y F IC A I w o u l d g e t th a t
fr o m t h e c li e n ts ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id y o u r e g a r d y o u r s e l f a s o b l ig a te d u n d e r
FICA to do so?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y t h a t is c e r t a in ly c o n s is t e n t w i t h w h a t y o u
s a y a t p a g e 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t . I f w e g o to p a g e 5 C h a ir a n d M s Vi lj o e n
y o u w i ll s e e a t th e t o p p a r a g r a p h o n th a t p a g e u n d e r 5 . 1 .1 to w a r d s t h e
end you say:

I w i ll d e a l w i th t h e o n - b o a r d i n g p r o c e s s o f e a c h , th e s e

a r e th e ty p e s o f c li e n ts y o u a r e g o in g t o d e s c r i b e i n tu r n a n d th e s t e p s
t h a t I t o o k t o e n s u r e c o m p l ia n c e w i t h A M F S ’s F I C A o b l ig a ti o n s , y o u s e e
that?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So as part of the statues that you needed to

c o m p ly w i th in o r d e r t o c o n d u c t y o u r b u s i n e s s w a s F I C A , is t h a t
20

correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e f o r th is p u r p o s e ju s t t o g o t o F IC A
f o r a m o m e n t b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e c h a p t e r s th a t is p a r t ic u l a r ly p e r ti n e n t
t o t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s is t h e c h a p te r d e a l in g w i t h c o n t r o l m e a s u r e s fo r
money laundering.

C h a ir y o u w i ll fi n d i t in th e l e g i s l a ti o n b u n d le a n d

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M s Vi l jo e n a n d t h e Fi n a n c i a l I n t e ll ig e n c e C e n tr e A c t w h i c h w e w i ll r e fe r
t o a s F I C A i s u n d e r Ta b 5 a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 11 0 . A n d i f y o u g o
t o p a g e 1 2 1 i n t h a t b u n d le y o u w il l s e e C h a p t e r 3 t w o t h i r d s o f t h e w a y
d o w n th e p a g e w h ic h is h e a d e d ‘ C o n tr o l m e a s u r e s f o r m o n e y la u n d e r in g
a n d fi n a n c i n g o f t e r r o r is ts a n d r e l a t e d a c t iv i t ie s .’ C h a i r w e w il l r e t u r n
t o t h e p e r t in e n t p r o v is i o n s i n d u e c o u r s e i n M s Vil jo e n ’s e v i d e n c e b u t I
w o u ld l ik e to j u s t b e c l e a r o n M s Vi l jo e n i s w e r e y o u c o n c e r n e d t o
e n s u r e t h a t a ll t h e n e c e s s a r y r e g u l a t o r y a n d le g is l a ti v e r e q u ir e m e n ts
were met by your company?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o r r y c a n y o u j u s t s a y th a t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Were you concerned to ensure that you

c o m p li e d w i t h a l l t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f F I C A in th e o p e r a t io n o f y o u r
company?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s I tr ie d m y b e s t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a s s u m e th a t th a t w o u l d h a v e in c l u d e d th e
m e a s u r e s th a t a r e p u t i n p l a c e u n d e r F I C A t o g u a r d a g a i n s t b u s in e s s e s
b e i n g u s e d f o r m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i n t e r m s o f y o u r r o l e o r s t a t u s u n d e r
20

F I C A w h ic h o f th e a c c o u n ta b l e i n s ti t u ti o n s u n d e r F I C A d id y o u
r e c o g n is e y o u r b u s in e s s a s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A m o n e y r e m i t t e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you. And what is your understanding of

m o n e y r e m it t e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A c a s h in tr a n s it b u s i n e s s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y is t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : B e c a u s e w e r e m i t m o n e y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u s e e k l e g a l a d v ic e o n t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m o n g s t th e g o v e r n i n g d o c u m e n ts i n r e la t io n t o
F I C A a r e a l s o a s e r i e s o f g u i d a n c e n o t e s t h a t t h e F in a n c ia l I n t e ll ig e n c e
C e n tr e i s s u e s fr o m t i m e to t i m e , d id y o u e n s u r e t h a t y o u k e p t u p t o
date with those?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id n o t C h a ir n o .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w t h a t y o u a r e l e g a ll y o b l ig e d a s a n
a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n u n d e r F I C A t o d o s o ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n o w. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w o u l d l ik e t o j u s t t a k e u s t o o n e o f th o s e

g u i d a n c e n o t e s w h ic h w e h a v e p u t i n th e b u n d l e . C h a ir y o u w i ll fi n d i t
a n d Ms Vi lj o e n a t p a g e 1 5 9 . 1 . I t is a g u i d a n c e n o t e is s u e d o n th e 1 4
M a r c h 2 0 0 8 . Ms Vi lj o e n h a v e y o u s e e n t h i s b e f o r e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No I have not. Sorry which page?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s 1 5 9 .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: 151 oh 9.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 5 9 . 1 . A n d i t i s d a t e d t h e 1 4 M a r c h 2 0 0 8 a n d
y o u w i ll s e e o n t h a t p a g e i n t e r m s o f i ts t it le i t is G u i d a n c e N o t e 4 o n
S u s p ic i o u s Tr a n s a c t io n R e p o r ti n g .

H a v e y o u s e e n t h is d o c u m e n t

before?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I h a v e n o t , n o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e w ill g o to i t a t th e a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e in t h e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
evidence.

But as I have it so far you accept that you are an

a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n u n d e r F I C A b e c a u s e y o u i d e n t i fy y o u r c o m p a n y
a s a m o n e y r e m i t te r, c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u h a v e n o t k e p t tr a c k o f a m o n g s t o th e r

t h i n g s G u i d a n c e N o t e 4 in r e la t io n to s u s p i c i o u s tr a n s a c t i o n s t h a t
r e q u ir e r e p o r ti n g ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o j u s t m o v e o v e r
10

t o p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t i f w e m a y ?

Because there at paragraph 3.4

…
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y d i d y o u s a y y o u g o i n g b a c k to h e r

a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To th e a ffi d a v i t i n d e e d C h a ir a t p a g e 2 w e w il l
p ic k i t u p .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And on page 2 we are at paragraph 3.4

b e c a u s e M s Vi l jo e n a s I r e a d p a r a g r a p h 3 .4 y o u e x p la i n i n t h a t
p a r a g r a p h w h y a t a p o i n t i n ti m e y o u h a d t o h a n d o v e r th e b o o k s a n d
20

r e c o r d s o f y o u r C C , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d
what happened?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I t w a s a c a s e w i t h S m a l l a n d M e d iu m

B u s i n e s s B a n k N a m i b i a a n d th e y o p e n e d u p a n i n q u ir y a n d t h e y …

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A li q u i d a t i o n in q u ir y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h e y d id a n d t h e y t h e n a s k e d f o r u s to
hand over our documentation.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. J u s t b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d w e

k n o w w h a t b u s i n e s s y o u r e n ti ty w a s in v o l v e d i n .

Fr o m w h e r e d id y o u

operate?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Fr o m S p r in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m S p r in g s ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r c l ie n ts w o u l d b e a r o u n d S p r in g s o n ly o r y o u
worked …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Beyond? What was the scope?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Gauteng.
CHAIRPERSON: The whole of Gauteng?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : G a u t e n g – y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : th a n k y o u C h a i r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d ju s t t h e s iz e o f y o u r o p e r a t i o n . A b o u t h o w m a n y
employees did you have for example?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e w e r e a s m a ll te a m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e r e w e r e f o u r – f o u r d r iv e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 25 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: So it was a sm all team …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : B u t w e w e r e b u s y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t . N o , I ju s t w a n te d to – s o t h a t w e k n o w
e x a c tl y fr o m …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e y o u o p e r a te d a n d w h a t w a s t h e a r e a in w h i c h
y o u r b u s i n e s s w a s a c t iv e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I d o p l a n t o g o in t o th a t i n m o r e d e t a i l …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d u e c o u r s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h a t is u s e f u l b a c k g r o u n d f o r t h e p u r p o s e s
o f u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r h a n d i n g o v e r o f y o u r r e c o r d s .

So you were

e x p l a i n in g M s Vi lj o e n th a t t h e r e w a s a l iq u id a ti o n in q u ir y in t o t h e S m a l l
a n d M e d i u m E n t e r p r is e B a n k N a m ib i a . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And in the course of that you were asked to

h a n d o v e r c e r t a in b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t g e t c le a r o n w h a t b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s
you handed over?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I handed over all books and all records.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f y o u r e n t ir e b u s i n e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

E v e n t h o u g h t h e e n ti r e b u s i n e s s w o u ld n o t

h a v e r e la t e d t o th e S m a ll a n d M e d iu m E n t e r p r is e s B a n k N a m i b i a ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

T h e y h a v e a s k e d f o r i t a n d I h a n d e d i t a ll

o v e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w p r e c i s e ly d i d t h e y a s k f o r i t a n d I a m

a s k in g t h a t M s Vi lj o e n i n fa ir n e s s t o y o u b e c a u s e t h e p o w e r s o f t h e
M a s t e r u n d e r a li q u i d a t i o n i n q u i r y is t o d e m a n d b y s u b p o e n a d o c u m e n t s
t h a t m a y b e r e le v a n t t o t h e c o m p a n y i n l i q u i d a t io n b u t t h e p o w e r s d o
n o t e x t e n d b e y o n d t h a t . S o a r e y o u q u i t e s u r e th a t y o u d i d n o t g e t a
10

r e q u e s t fo r t h e d o c u m e n t s a n d b o o k s r e l a t e d t o t h e c o m p a n y i n
li q u i d a t io n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n o t r e c a l l g e t t in g a s u m m o n s . W e w e r e
a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y a n d t h e y a s k e d f o r i t a n d w e h a n d e d i t
o v e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ev e r y s i n g l e … ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ev e r y t h in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R e l a te d

beyond

th e

Small

and

Medium

E n t e r p r is e B a n k … ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u ta k e s te p s t o r e c o v e r a l l th e d o c u m e n ts
o f y o u r b u s i n e s s t h e r e a f te r ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Not yet no.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D id t h e y s a y t h a n k s f o r th e s e 3 7 fi l e s b u t w e

are only interested in two?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o t h e y d id n o t .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d to w h o m w e r e t h e y h a n d e d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

To t h e li q u i d a to r s .

Th e y c a m e a n d t h e y

c o l l e c t e d it fr o m m y l a w y e r ’s o ff ic e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w o u ld t h e n li k e t o j u s t b e c l e a r a b o u t

p r e c i s e ly w h a t d o c u m e n ts w e r e g i v e n t o t h e m if w e m a y …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w i ll f in d a t p a g e 1 7 o f y o u r b u n d le t h e
le t t e r t h a t y o u h a v e p r o v id e d t o u s w h ic h I u n d e r s ta n d is t h e c o v e r i n g
le t t e r w h e n y o u h a n d e d o v e r t h e s e d o c u m e n ts a n d y o u w i ll s e e u n d e r
10

two you say:
“ K i n d ly f in d 3 4 le v e r a r c h f il e s a n d o n e p l a s tic
folder

c o n ta i n i n g

to

the

best

of

our

c l i e n t ’s

k n o w l e d g e t h e f u ll b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s o f a c c o u n t fo r
A s s e t M o v e m e n t & F i n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s C C . ”
Do you see that?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t s u g g e s ts to m e t h a t i t w a s a c c o u n ti n g

r e c o r d s th a t y o u w e r e h a n d i n g o v e r ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It w a s e v e r y t h i n g .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R e c o r d s o f a c c o u n t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It w a s e v e r y t h i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
d e s c r ip t io n t h e r e .

B u t c a n – c a n I ju s t – c a n w e p a u s e o n t h e

Th e f u l l b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s o f a c c o u n t y o u a r e

s a y in g t h a t i s n o t c o n f in e d t o a c c o u n t in g r e c o r d s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It h a s g o t th e a c c o u n ti n g r e c o r d s a s w e ll .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n c l u d in g o t h e r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o le t u s j u s t g o th r o u g h w h a t t h o s e o t h e r s

w o u ld h a v e b e e n . W h a t e l s e w a s h a n d e d o v e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e l l i t i s a ll j u s t t h e a c c o u n t in g r e c o r d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n ts .
I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e c e ip t s . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n – i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
e v e r y t h i n g . I n v o ic i n g – i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e v e r y t h i n g .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o c a n I j u s t g o th r o u g h a li s t th a t I h a v e

c o m p il e d a n d y o u c a n te ll m e i f t h a t is w h a t w a s h a n d e d o v e r.
I n v o ic e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r m o n th ly r e c o n c i li a ti o n s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O f w h ic h th e r e a r e s o m e e x a m p l e s in t h e

p a p e r s . D e li v e r y s l ip s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

S o e v e r y s in g le d e l iv e r y s l ip o f y o u r b u s in e s s

w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o th e l iq u id a t o r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It - i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t h e f il e s . Ye s
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t le t u s p a u s e t h e r e .

Should have been –

d i d y o u s a t is fy y o u r s e l f a s to w h a t w a s i n t h e f il e s w h e n y o u h a n d e d
them over?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I – I li t e r a l ly j u s t t o o k t h e f il e s . A c t u a l ly i t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w a s w i t h m y b o o k k e e p e r s i n t h e ir – i n t h e ir s t o r a g e u n i ts .

So I went

a n d I j u s t to o k e v e r y th i n g th a t w a s w i th m y b o o k k e e p e r s a n d I d r o p p e d
it o ff a t my la w y e r s a n d th e n t h e y c o l le c t e d it .

S o e v e r y t h in g s h o u ld

h a v e b e e n i n th o s e fi le s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r – d id y o u k e e p m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n t s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t w o u l d h a v e g o n e a s w e ll ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n in t h e r e y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o t h a t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n i n t h e r e n o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y n o t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I h a d a s e p a r a t e f il e fo r f in a n c ia ls C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a n y t h i n g e l s e o t h e r t h a n t h o s e th a t I h a v e
lis t e d t h a t y o u c a n r e c a ll ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t i t w o u ld h a v e

b e e n e v e r y th i n g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u h a d c o m p i le d f o r t h e

p u r p o s e s o f v e t t in g y o u r c l i e n ts . W o u l d th a t h a v e g o n e a s w e l l?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It m i g h t h a v e b e e n . I – I c a n n o t c o n fi r m .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

It s e e ms to m e M s Vil jo e n - a n d I a m a s k i n g

t h is i n fa ir n e s s to y o u s o w e c a n g e t c l a r i t y o n it – t h e f o c u s w a s - a s I
have

s u g g e s te d

–

th e

a c c o u n t i n g r e c o r d s , th e

evidence of the

d e li v e r i e s e t c e t e r a . I t m a y n o t h a v e e x te n d e d t h o u g h t o d o c u m e n ts th a t
y o u c o m p il e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f v e t t in g c l ie n ts a n d e s ta b l is h i n g w h o t h e y
w e r e . Is th a t r i g h t?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

It – it could have been.

r e m e m b e r w h a t w a s i n t h a t c l e a r f o l d e r.

I – I cannot

I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h a t w a s i n

t h e r e . S o I – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t I g a v e e v e r y th in g o v e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d s o u n d e r s u b p o e n a . D id y o u n o t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Again you have asked me and I do not think
I w a s s u b p o e n a e d to h a n d o v e r t h e d o c u m e n t s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e l a n g u a g e y o u u s e i n y o u r a ff id a v i t is t h a t

you were ordered to do so. What – what did you mean when you said
ordered at page 2 paragraph 3.4?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Well I was not ordered. I was asked.
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w e r e a s k e d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o i t m a y n o t h a v e b e e n p u r s u a n t
t o a n o r d e r fr o m t h e M a s t e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: who asked you?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e li q u i d a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e li q u i d a t o r s ?

20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id t h e y s p e a k to y o u d ir e c tly o r t h e y s p o k e t o y o u r
a tt o r n e y a n d y o u r a t t o r n e y t o l d y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: They spoke to both of us …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A n d t h e y a s k e d u s fo r t h e f il e s …

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

A n d t h e n a f te r w a r d s t h e y w o u l d h a v e

s p o k e n t o my a t to r n e y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so your attorney was present when they spoke to
you?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t t o b e c le a r t h e y a s k e d y o u f o r a ll t h e
fi le s o f y o u r e n ti r e b u s i n e s s ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w o u ld h a v e t o l ie t o a n s w e r i f th e y a s k e d
me that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e i f t h e y a s k e d f o r t h a t b u t y o u
are sure that you gave everything?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I g a v e e v e r y th i n g y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

D o y o u h a v e a r e c o ll e c ti o n o f w h a t y o u r

i m p r e s s io n w a s o f w h a t t h e y a s k e d fo r ?

Is i t th a t – i s - a t le a s t y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g i s i t - i s t h a t t h e y w a n te d e v e r y t h i n g ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It m i g h t h a v e c o m e a c r o s s lik e th a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I am – I am not sure but I do not want to

s a y it c a m e a c r o s s l ik e t h a t a n d t h e n it d i d n o t a n d s o …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o , n o I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t b u t a t l e a s t y o u – I

t h i n k y o u – y o u g a v e e v e r y t h in g b e c a u s e y o u p r o b a b l y t h a t t h e y w a n te d

Page 32 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
everything.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: They can have everything.
CHAIRPERSON:

That was your understanding.

Th e y – t h e y m i g h t o r

m i g h t n o t h a v e s a i d s o b u t y o u w o u l d h a v e g iv e n t h e m e v e r y t h i n g …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I ju s t g a v e e v e r y t h in g f o r i n c a s e t h e y m i g h t
wanted to come back and ask for more.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: So I gave them everything.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u k e e p c o p i e s o f w h a t y o u g a v e o v e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id n o t k n o w C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t h a v e e le c t r o n i c v e r s i o n s o f t h o s e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : F o r s o m e t h in g s I d i d h a v e e l e c tr o n ic th i n g –
copies.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t n o t o t h e r s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o n o t – n o t f o r e v e r y t h i n g – n o t n e a r ly

everything.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Do

you

know

th a t

under

F IC A

as

an

a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n y o u h a v e t o k e e p a l l t h e r e c o r d s o f y o u r
b u s i n e s s f o r a m i n i m u m o f fi v e y e a r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : By t h e n t h e c o m p a n y w a s li q u i d a t e d a n d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n y o u a n s w e r t h e fi r s t q u e s ti o n ?

k n o w t h a t y o u h a v e t o b y la w k e e p t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e … ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id n o t k n o w.

Page 33 of 228

Do you

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r y o u r a t t o r n e y k e p t a r e c o r d o f

w h a t w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e l iq u i d a to r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : My – m y a t t o r n e y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r y o u r a tt o r n e y k e p t a l is t o f
w h a t w a s g iv e n t o t h e l iq u i d a to r s o r n o t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I am – I am sure he might have. I cannot

a n s w e r. I a m n o t s u r e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l n o y o u c a n a n s w e r b e c a u s e y o u e i th e r k n o w o r

y o u d o n o t k n o w.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t j u s t s o I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e c o r r e c t. Yo u
w e r e n o t a w a r e t h a t u n d e r F IC A y o u a r e r e q u i r e d to k e e p a ll th e
r e c o r d s fo r a m i n i m u m o f fi v e y e a r s .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Can I – can I answer that in a two point?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

So

when

the

b u s in e s s

is

l i q u id a t e d

li q u i d a t o r s t h a t l i q u id a t e th e b u s in e s s t h e n t a k e a ll t h e f il e s o v e r a n d
t h e n t h e y a r e l e g a ll y a p p a r e n t ly n o t m y fi le s a n y m o r e . T h a t i s h o w it
w a s e x p l a in e d t o m e . S o t h e b u s i n e s s w a s l iq u id a te d a n d t h e n t h e fi l e s
w e r e t o g o t o t h e p e o p l e w h o l iq u i d a te d t h e b u s i n e s s b u t th e n j u s t a ft e r
t h a t th e l i q u i d a t o r s o f S M E a s k e d f o r th o s e d o c u m e n ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.

W e a r e d e a li n g w i th a fe w l i q u id a t o r s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
h e r e . L e t u s d e a l fi r s t …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h y o u r b u s i n e s s .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s .

S o a s it w a s e x p la i n e d t o m e t h a t

w h e n y o u l iq u id a t e y o u r b u s i n e s s t h e n t h e li q u i d a t o r s o f t h a t b u s i n e s s
t a k e s p o s s e s s io n o f a l l y o u r f il e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H u h - u h .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t i s h o w i t w a s e x p l a in e d t o m e a n d t h e n
a ft e r w a r d s S M E l i q u i d a t o r s r e q u e s te d f o r t h e f il e s a n d s o w e h a n d e d
10

t h e fi l e s o v e r t o th e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u h a d t o g e t th e m b a c k fr o m t h e

li q u i d a t o r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e s ti ll h a d t o t a k e th e m t o t h e l iq u id a to r s .
T h e y w e r e s ti ll w i th m y b o o k k e e p e r s a n d w e s t il l h a d t o t a k e t h e m t o
t h e li q u i d a t o r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u r l i q u id a t o r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So let us just get that chronology right if we

m a y. W h e n w a s y o u r b u s in e s s li q u i d a te d ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It w a s i n th e s t a r t o f 2 0 1 8 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h o a t th a t p o i n t h a d a l l y o u r r e c o r d s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : My b o o k k e e p e r s ti ll h a d a l l my r e c o r d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n d i d y o u g i v e th e m t o th e l i q u id a t o r s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I think it was end of 2018.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a f te r y o u g a v e a ll o f t h e m t o t h e li q u i d a t o r s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
of the Small and Medium Enterprises Bank?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : C a n y o u r e p e a t th a t - s o r r y ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u g a v e a l l t h e r e c o r d s to t h e l i q u id a t o r s o f

t h e S M E B a n k N a m ib ia …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I c a n n o t c o n fir m i f i t w a s in O c t o b e r b u t i t

was end of …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

I t w a s i n O c t o b e r b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n t h e

le t t e r t h a t y o u h a v e p u t u p …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y, y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e n t t o t h e l a w y e r s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is w h e n w e d id i t, y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So

I

ju s t

want

to

understand

did

your

li q u i d a t o r s h a v e t h e m th e n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o t h e y w e r e s t il l w i t h th e b o o k k e e p e r s f o r
some reason.

I d o n o t k n o w w h y b u t t h e y w e r e s ti ll w i t h t h e

b o o k k e e p e r s fo r s o m e r e a s o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

B u t i f t h e y w e n t fr o m t h e b o o k k e e p e r s t o t h e

li q u i d a t o r s o f S M E B a n k N a m i b i a th e n th e y h a v e n e v e r g o n e t o y o u r
li q u i d a t o r s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y s h o u l d h a v e a p p a r e n t ly g o n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To y o u r k n o w l e d g e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : To m y k n o w le d g e y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a v e th e y g o n e to t h e li q u i d a t o r s o f A M F S ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o , n o t to m y k n o w le d g e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h a t is n o t w h y y o u d o n o t – y o u d i d n o t

r e ta i n t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d r e c o r d s fo r f iv e y e a r s . C o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u g i v e i n s tr u c ti o n s t h a t t h e – t h o s e b o o k s b e

g iv e n to t h e li q u i d a t o r s o f y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n a t a n y s ta g e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n o t r e c a l l g iv i n g in s tr u c ti o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

It is ju s t t h a t y o u – a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r

e v i d e n c e y o u s a y b e f o r e th e l i q u id a t o r s o f t h e S M E …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N a m ib ia n – in d e e d N a m i b i a n B a n k w e c a n

maybe refer to.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e

the

li q u i d a t o r s

of

th e

Namibian

Bank

approached you for those books or documents you say those books or
d o c u m e n ts s h o u l d h a v e g o n e t o y o u r l iq u id a to r s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d o y o u s a y th e y s h o u l d h a v e g o n e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h o – h o w – h o w i s i t t h a t t h e y s h o u ld h a v e g o n e

t h e r e i f y o u d o – y o u h a d n o t g iv e n in s tr u c ti o n s th a t t h e y b e ta k e n
t h e r e ? Yo u w e r e th e o w n e r o f t h e b u s i n e s s a s I u n d e r s t a n d .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I – I cannot recall if my bookkeeper had to

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
fi n i s h t h in g s o r w h y i t n e v e r w e n t . I – I c a n n o t r e c a ll a n d I d o n o t w a n t
t o s a y n o w t h a t i t is f o r th is r e a s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O r fo r t h a t r e a s o n b u t I c a n n o t r e c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d t h e y b e e n a s k e d f o r a lr e a d y ?

Had the – had

y o u r l iq u id a to r s a s k e d f o r … ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y h a d n o t a s k e d fo r i t C h a ir n o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y b u t w h a t i s i t th a t m a k e s y o u s a y t h e y

should have gone there already?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is h o w t h e y e x p l a in e d i t t o m e t h a t a l l
m y b o o k s w i ll t h e n h a v e t o g o to t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is y o u r li q u i d a t o r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t w a s my b o o k k e e p e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r b o o k k e e p e r t o ld y o u s o ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is h o w th e y e x p l a in e d i t t o m e y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b u t it is n o t t h e – y o u r l i q u id a t o r s w h o s a i d th a t t o
you?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o , n o t h e y d id n o t s a y t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

But did you say to your bookkeepers okay in that

e v e n t y o u m u s t ta k e t h e b o o k s to t h e li q u i d a to r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n o t r e c a l l s a y in g t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W e ll – o k a y. E n g l is h is n o t m y fir s t l a n g u a g e . I
d o n o t k n o w if it i s y o u r s M s Vi lj o e n b u t i t m a y b e th a t t h e p r o b l e m i s
the use of the word “should”.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w e ll b e C h a ir.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r o u r p u r p o s e s t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d li k e t o g e t c la r i ty o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is fir s t - a n d y o u w ill c o r r e c t i f m y s u m m a r y
is i n c o r r e c t M s Vi lj o e n .

Yo u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f y o u r o b l ig a ti o n a s a n

a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n t o k e e p y o u r r e c o r d s f o r fiv e y e a r s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u d i d n o t k n o w o f th a t o b li g a t i o n u n d e r

FICA?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n I p r o b e d w i t h y o u w h y i t w a s a s a m a t t e r
o f fa c t i r r e s p e c t iv e o f t h e l e g a l o b li g a ti o n t h a t y o u d i d n o t r e t a i n y o u r
r e c o r d s fo r fi v e y e a r s I u n d e r s to o d y o u r a n s w e r t o i n s o m e w a y r e l a te
t o t h e li q u i d a ti o n o f y o u r b u s in e s s . C o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

But as a matter of fact you do not know

w h e t h e r th e r e c o r d s o f y o u r c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n e v e r e n d e d u p w i t h th e
20

li q u i d a t o r s o f t h a t c l o s e c o r p o r a ti o n . C o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

li q u i d a t o r s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t n o t y o u r s ?

Page 39 of 228

I t e n d e d u p w i th th e S M E

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W e w ill r e tu r n to th o s e p r o v is i o n s
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l ju s t – ju s t s o t h a t w e c la r i fy w h e t h e r t h e y e v e r

r e a c h e d y o u r l i q u id a t o r s is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w o r i s t h a t
something you do not know?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I – I k n o w i t d i d n o t r e a c h it C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , it d id n o t g o t o th e m ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e t h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir w e w ill r e t u r n t o t h o s e p r o v is io n s in

r e l a ti o n t o th e r e c o r d s b e c a u s e in d u e c o u r s e I – I a m g o i n g to a s k f o r
M s Vil jo e n ’s c o m m e n t o n t h e e x t e n t o f t h e o b li g a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

U n d e r t h a t s e c t io n a l b e i t t h a t s h e h a s t o l d u s

a lr e a d y s h e w a s n o t a w a r e o f it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w il l a s k f o r h e r c o m m e n t o n i t w h e n w e lo o k a t
t h e s e c t io n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o i t is f in e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e n M s Vi lj o e n i f w e c a n g o b a c k to t h e

s e r ie s o f q u e s t io n s t h a t th e C h a ir b e g a n a s k i n g y o u a b o u t t h e f o r m a ti o n
o f y o u r b u s in e s s . I w o u l d l ik e t o g e t s o m e d e ta il b a c k g r o u n d t h e r e a n d
I h a v e i t c o m m e n c i n g in y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t p a g e 2 u n d e r th e h e a d i n g “ 4 .
Background”.

N o w y o u b e g i n a s I r e a d y o u r a ff i d a v i t e x p l a i n i n g y o u r

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p r i o r e m p l o y m e n t a t a b u s i n e s s c a l l e d R u s ti c S t o n e .
Yo u w i ll p ic k t h a t u p i n p a r a g r a p h 4 . 2 . C a n y o u te ll u s a b o u t
t h a t e m p l o y m e n t a n d i ts d u r a t i o n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y w e r e a c a s h in t r a n s i t b u s i n e s s a n d I
– I s t a r t e d w i t h t h e m a r o u n d 2 0 1 2 a n d I f in is h e d u p – I w a n t to s a y it
w a s O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 I l e f t t o s ta r t A M F S .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d M s Vi lj o e n I h a d i t fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e

p r e v i o u s ly t h a t t h e y o p e r a t e d a s i m il a r b u s in e s s m o d e l t o A M F S . C a n
w e t a k e i t t h a t w h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g a t R u s t ic S t o n e y o u t h e n
10

r e p l ic a t e d i n A M F S i n t e r m s o f t h e b u s in e s s a p p r o a c h ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l e x p l o r e t h a t i n q u i t e a b i t m o r e d e t a il i n
d u e c o u r s e b u t I j u s t w a n t e d to b e c l e a r R u s tic S t o n e o p e r a t e d i n th e
same way as AMF S when you set it up. Correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n t e ll u s a b o u t h o w fr o m R u s tic S t o n e

y o u r c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n c a m e t o b e fo r m e d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

O n e o f t h e c l ie n ts f r o m R u s tic S t o n e

a p p r o a c h e d m e a n d s u g g e s t e d t h a t I s t a r t m y o w n e n ti ty.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w a s h e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w a s t h e c l i e n t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Andries.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d r ie s w h o ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Greyvenstein.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A n d h e – h e th e n s a i d h e w i ll h e l p w i t h t h e
f u n d i n g a n d y e s th a t is h o w A M F S w a s s t a r t e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
paragraph 4.6.

I p i c k th a t u p a t p a g e 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it fr o m

Th a t is w h e r e y o u r e f e r e n c e b e in g a p p r o a c h e d b y

M r G r e y v e n s te i n w h o I u n d e r s ta n d w a s a n e x i s t i n g c l i e n t o f R u s ti c
S t o n e . I u n d e r s t a n d th e r e t h a t h e p r o v id e d i n i t ia l f u n d in g t o e s t a b li s h
t h e b u s i n e s s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And any other role that he played in the

business?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No role.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e w a s n o t a m e m b e r o f t h e C C ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

H e w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e C C u n t il I p a i d

b a c k th e i n it i a l l o a n a n d t h e n h e – h e w e n t o ff a s a m e m b e r o f t h e C C .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d j u s t t e l l u s t h a t ti m e l in e .

When was the

C C e s t a b l is h e d a n d w h e n d id M r G r e y v e n s t e i n l e a v e a s a m e m b e r ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

It – i t w a s e s ta b lis h e d a r o u n d 2 0 1 5 –

J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 – a n d h e e i t h e r l e f t th e C C a t t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 5 o r t h e s t a r t
20

of 2016.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d fr o m t h a t p o i n t i f I p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h
4 .8 w h o w e r e t h e m e m b e r s i n th e b u s i n e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : J u s t my s e l f .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d 1 0 0 p e r c e n t m e m b e r ’s in t e r e s t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u g o o n in t h a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 8 t o s a y t h a t :
“ A t n o t i m e w a s A n d r ie s … ”
I ta k e t h a t t o b e a r e f e r e n c e t o M r G r e y v e n s t e i n .
“ … i n v o l v e d i n t h e r u n n i n g o f t h e b u s in e s s . ”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e d i d y o u r b u s in e s s o p e r a t e fr o m ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Fr o m h is p r e m i s e s a t t h e b a c k .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d i t a l w a y s o p e r a te fr o m h is p r e m is e s a t t h e
10

back?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

No, no, no.

E v e n t u a ll y I s ta r t e d w o r k i n g

fr o m h o m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n – w h e n d i d t h a t c h a n g e o c c u r ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

M o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e t i m e th a t th e

b u s i n e s s w a s h a n d e d o v e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o c a n I ju s t g e t t h a t c o r r e c t th e n .

The

b u s i n e s s s ta r t s e n d o f 2 0 1 4 I h a v e i t in y o u r a ff i d a v i t t h a t y o u
p u r c h a s e d t h i s s h e l f C C . S o w e c o u ld m a y b e t a k e i t f r o m e n d o f 2 0 1 4
t o e n d o f 2 0 1 5 y o u o p e r a te d fr o m h is p r e m is e s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n h e s o l d o u t o f th e c lo s e c o r p o r a t i o n …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n e a r ly 2 0 1 6 a n d d o I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e
fr o m t h a t d a t e o n w a r d s y o u n o l o n g e r o p e r a te d a t h i s p r e m is e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I t w a s s t il l r e g i s t e r e d th e r e a n d t h e v e h ic le s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w o u ld s o m e ti m e s b e p a r k e d t h e r e b u t I n o lo n g e r h a d m y li t tl e o ffi c e
there. If that makes sense.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o it d o e s b u t I w o u ld j u s t l ik e t o g e t c l a r it y.

D i d t h e v e h i c l e s o f th e b u s in e s s c o n ti n u e t o b e p a r k e d th e r e t h r o u g h o u t
t h e A M F S e x i s te n c e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Right to the end.

Sometimes the vehicles

w o u ld b e p a r k e d t h e r e y e s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So

what

was

th e

arrangement

with

M r G r e y v e n s te i n t h a t a ll o w e d y o u to c o n ti n u e t o p a r t y o u r v e h ic l e s
10

there?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : H e h a d p r e m is e s r i g h t n e x t d o o r a n d h e w a s
n o t u s i n g i t a n d h e s a i d w e c a n u s e th a t t o – i f w e n e e d e d to u s e i t w e
c a n u s e it f o r th e p a r k i n g o f th e v e h ic l e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e d i d c o n t in u e to h a v e s o m e i n v o l v e m e n t i n
t h e b u s in e s s b u t i t is c o n fi n e d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o a ll o w i n g
y o u r v e h ic le s t o p a r k o n h is p r e m is e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e r e w a s n o o t h e r r o l e t h a t h e p la y e d i n th e

business?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n if w e m o v e d o w n to p a r a g r a p h 4 . 9 o n
t h a t p a g e y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e p r o f it a b i li ty o f t h e b u s i n e s s .

Can you

p l e a s e a s s is t u s w i th i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t h o w m u c h m o n e y w a s m o v i n g
t h r o u g h t h e b u s in e s s a t i ts p e a k ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A b o u t 5 0 0 m ill i o n .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O v e r w h a t p e r io d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : P e r m o n th .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o a t i ts p e a k h a lf a b il li o n R a n d w a s m o v i n g

t h r o u g h t h e b u s in e s s . C o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d t h e p e a k s t a r t a n d w h e n d i d i t e n d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O h n o I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h a t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
magnitude.
10

W e l l l e t u s ju s t g o t h r o u g h – j u s t a n o r d e r o f

As I h a v e i t y o u r b u s i n e s s o p e r a t e d fr o m e a r l y 2 0 1 5 t il l

M a r c h 2 0 1 8 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

U n ti l I s o l d t h e b u s i n e s s in O c to b e r 2 0 1 7

a n d th e fi n a l h a n d o v e r w a s d o n e i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h , r ig h t th e l iq u id a ti o n h a p p e n e d i n M a r c h …
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: And then …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 8 ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: And then yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.

S o l e t u s ju s t g e t t h e ti m e li n e r i g h t

b e g in n i n g 2 0 1 5 to le t u s c a ll i t O c t o b e r 2 0 1 7 . A r e y o u c o m f o r t a b l e w i th
that?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is fi n e , ja .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is a b o u t t w o y e a r s a n d 1 0 m o n t h s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Three years, ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I a m j u s t tr y in g t o g e t a s e n s e – o f th o s e
t w o y e a r s a n d 1 0 m o n t h s h o w m u c h o f i t c o u ld b e d e s c r ib e d a s t h e
peak?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
2 0 1 7 a s w e ll .

2016 was a good year and – and so was

2 0 1 5 b e c a u s e w e h a d t h e r o b b e r y a a n d w e h a d to

o u t s o u r c e i t w a s p r o fi t a b l e b u t n o t a s m u c h a s m a y b e A u g u s t 2 0 1 6
g o i n g in t o 2 0 1 7 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o w o u ld i t b e f a ir t o s a y t h a t t h e r e w a s
a b o u t h a l f a b i ll i o n R a n d m o v i n g th r o u g h y o u r b u s i n e s s f o r a t l e a s t a
y e a r o f it s e x is t e n c e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e c a n s a y t h a t y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Thank you.

M s Vi lj o e n I w o u l d n e x t l ik e t o

m o v e t o th e p r o c e s s y o u u s e d to v e t c l ie n ts a n d w e c a n p ic k t h a t u p a t
p a g e 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it u n d e r a h e a d in g “ C li e n t Ve t ti n g a n d th e
D e li v e r y P r o c e s s ” .

B e f o r e w e g e t in t o i t s d e ta il s th o u g h I w o u l d j u s t

lik e t o g e t a s e n s e fr o m y o u a b o u t t h e i m p o r t a n c e y o u p l a c e d o n c li e n t
v e t ti n g .
D i d – d id y o u r e g a r d i t a s a n i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t o f y o u r
business?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w e r e y o u a w a r e o f th e w a y s i n w h ic h

a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n s u n d e r F IC A a r e r e q u ir e d t o v e t t h e ir c li e n ts ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id k n o w y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n g o t o t h o s e p r o v is i o n s i n d u e c o u r s e . I
a ls o j u s t w a n t to k n o w w e l o o k e d a t C h a p t e r 3 w h i c h is a s e r ie s o f
c o n tr o l m e a s u r e s u n d e r F I C A to tr y a n d p r e v e n t t h e u s e o f b u s i n e s s e s
f o r m o n e y la u n d e r i n g . D o y o u k n o w w h a t m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g is ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So can I take it that it would be part of the

r e a s o n fo r v e t ti n g c li e n ts t h a t y o u e q u i p y o u r s e lf a s a b u s i n e s s t o
g u a r d a g a i n s t m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g . I s t h a t f a ir ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d c a n I a ls o j u s t fo r p r e p a r a t o r y p u r p o s e s

g e t a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t w h e th e r y o u a g r e e t h a t th e r e c a n b e a l in k
b e t w e e n m o n e y la u n d e r i n g a n d c o r r u p t a c ti v i ti e s .

Do you accept that

t h e r e i s a li n k b e t w e e n th o s e t w o ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t to e x p l o r e t h a t a b i t f u r t h e r. It s e e m s
t o m e t h a t t h e l in k l ie s i n th e fa c t t h a t c o r r u p t io n is a b o u t p a y in g p e o p l e
o ff f o r f a v o u r s t h a t t h e y g i v e y o u .

D o y o u a c c e p t th a t v e r y b a s is

e x p l a n a t io n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o n e o f t h e w a y s t h a t t h a t c a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r – y o u r – y o u r l o s e d e fi n i ti o n i s t o o l o o s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To l o o s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m h a p p y t o e m p lo y t h e – th e l e g i s l a tiv e …
20

CHAIRPERSON: I am – I am …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e fi n i t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m a ll o w e d t o p a y m y d a u g h t e r fo r h e r t o d o a

favour for me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E a s y C h a ir. I s h o u l d h a v e a d d e d a f a v o u r t h a t
it is n o t le g a l ly p e r m is s ib l e to b e m a d e . I n d e e d C h a ir. I a m i n d e b t e d

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t o y o u . W e c a n a c t u a l ly p ic k i t u p i n th e P r e v e n t i o n o f O r g a n is e d C r i m e
A c t a n d a ls o P R E C C A h a s a u s e f u l d e f i n i ti o n o f c o r r u p ti o n b u t m a y b e
f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s I t h i n k t h e r e fi n e m e n t w a s c r i t ic a l . It – i t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t i s p a y in g a b e n e fi t to r e c e i v e a b e n e f i t

y o u r s e l f t o w h ic h y o u a r e n o t l e g a l ly e n ti tl e d . A r e y o u c o m f o r t a b le w i th
t h a t d e f in i ti o n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I u n d e r s ta n d a n d I a m c o m f o r t a b l e w it h th a t
yes.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n j u s t i n te r m s o f t h e l i n k b e t w e e n

m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g a n d c o r r u p ti o n m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g – a n d c o r r e c t m e i f
y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t i n te r p r e t a t i o n – i s a b o u t d i s g u is i n g o r c o n c e a l i n g
t h e tr u e n a tu r e , s o u r c e , l o c a ti o n o r m o v e m e n t o f u n l a w fu l p r o c e e d s . D o
y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h e o n e w a y i n w h ic h c o r r u p t io n c a n b e

f a c i li t a te d is i f y o u r e n d e r m o n e y i n a w a y t h a t i t is t r u e s o u r c e is n o t
c le a r i n o r d e r f o r t h o s e w h o m u s t b e r e p a i d f o r t h e il lic i t f a v o u r y o u
h a v e r e c e iv e d t h e n g e t ti n g m o n e y. D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . L e t u s g o t h e n t o y o u r p r o c e s s fo r
v e t ti n g c li e n ts b e c a u s e i t b e g i n s a t p a g e 4 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t b u t it r e a l ly
g e t s i n t o i t s d e ta il o v e r th e p a g e a t p a g e 5 . D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e c o m m e n c e a t p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 . 1 b e c a u s e

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a s I r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u d r a w a d is ti n c ti o n b e t w e e n n e w a n d
e x i s ti n g c l ie n ts . C a n y o u e x p l a in t h a t d i ff e r e n c e t o u s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N e w c li e n ts w o u l d b e p e o p l e w h o I d i d n o t

h a v e p r io r w o r k in g s w i t h a t R u s t ic S t o n e w h e r e e x is t in g c li e n t s w e r e
c li e n t s w h o c a m e f r o m R u s ti c S t o n e t o A s s e t M o v e m e n t & F i n a n c i a l
S e r v ic e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d j u s t to ti e o n e lo o s e e n d .

What – what is the

p o s i ti o n th a t y o u h e l d a t R u s tic S t o n e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

I t s ta r t e d o ff w h e r e I w a s d o i n g t h e

a d m i n is tr a t i o n a n d t h e n e v e n t u a ll y it i n v o l v e d w h e r e I w a s o r d e r i n g t h e
f u n d s a n d I w a s m u c h m o r e i n v o lv e d in t h e d a y t o d a y r u n n i n g a n d n o t
ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o I s a w t h a t is w h a t y o u s a y i n t h e a ff id a v i t b u t
I w a n t th e j o b t i tl e .

Were you a manager something?

Were you

consultant or something?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y n e v e r g a v e m e a jo b ti tl e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y, a l r i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d ju s t s o I c a n g e t c l e a r a b o u t y o u r

d i ff e r e n c e i n a p p r o a c h o n v e t ti n g b e t w e e n n e w a n d e x is t in g c li e n ts . I
20

u n d e r s t a n d fr o m w h a t h a p p e n s l a t e r i n y o u r a ff id a v i t t h a t r e l a t e s t o
w h e t h e r th e y w e r e r e q u i r e d t o s ig n s t a n d a r d te r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s . I s
that correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t t h e o n l y d i ff e r e n c e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e o n ly d i ff e r e n c e .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o e v e n i f i t w a s a n e x is ti n g c l i e n t th a t y o u

k n e w a t R u s ti c S t o n e y o u w o u l d s ti ll g o t h r o u g h a v e t t in g p r o c e s s . Is
that correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w o u l d y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d te ll u s w h a t th a t v e tt i n g p r o c e s s c o m p r is e d
please?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I w o u ld g e t t h e ir ID n u m b e r, i n c o m e t a x

n u m b e r, a d d r e s s . I w o u l d g o v is i t t h e a d d r e s s a n d m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y
a r e w h o th e y a r e . I n o r m a ll y l ik e t o v i s i t t h e a d d r e s s a s w e l l t o s e e i f i t
10

w a s a s e c u r i ty r is k f o r m y – m y m e n to g o a n d d o t h e d e liv e r ie s .

I

w o u ld g e t t h e ir t e l e p h o n e n u m b e r s a n d t h a t is i t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i f w e g o o n p a g e 5 to p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 . 2 . 3

t h a t i s w h e r e y o u m o v e fr o m th e d e s c r ip t i o n y o u h a v e j u s t g i v e n o f t h e
v a r io u s d o c u m e n ts y o u s o u g h t a n d i n q u ir i e s t h a t y o u m a d e a n d y o u g o
on and you say:
“ O n c e I ’d r e c e iv e d th e a b o v e c o m p l e t e d w i t h c o p i e s o f a ll
s u p p o r t in g

documents,

I

w o u ld

conduct

various

tr a d e

e n q u ir i e s , a n d i f a l l a d d e d u p , a n d I w a s c o n fi d e n t t h a t t h e
r e q u e s t c a m e fr o m a l e g i t i m a te b u s i n e s s , I w o u l d c o n d u c t a
20

s i te v is i t t o c o n f ir m h e a d d r e s s p r o v i d e d a n d a ls o to c o n s id e r
s a m e fr o m a s e c u r i ty p o i n t o f v ie w ” ,
I’ d l ik e to ju s t u n p a c k th a t a li t t le b i t , w h a t v a r i o u s tr a d e
e n q u ir i e s w o u l d y o u m a k e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I w o u ld a s k t h e m , w h a t d o t h e y d o , s o I

d i d n ’ t f i n d d i ff e r e n t s o u r c e s t o v e r i fy i t b u t I d i d s it w i t h t h e m a n d fi n d

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o u t fr o m t h e m i f i t w a s a g o o d b u s i n e s s , w h a t t h e y d o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d i d y o u k e e p r e c o r d s o f t h a t in f o r m a t io n ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I never took notes no I was just – it was

ju s t a d is c u s s i o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u w e r e n ’t a w a r e u n d e r, F IC A , t h a t y o u

w e r e r e q u ir e d t o k e e p a r e c o r d o f t h a t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o I w a s n ’ t C h a ir.

A n d t h e n y o u g o o n a n d y o u s a y,

“ A n d i f a ll a d d e d u p a n d y o u w e r e c o n fi d e n t t h a t a r e q u e s t
c a m e fr o m a l e g i ti m a t e b u s i n e s s ” ,

10

J u s t h e l p u s t h e r e , w h a t w o u l d e q u ip y o u t o k n o w i f i t a d d e d
up?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I f t h e y s e e m e d l ik e a r e a l b u s i n e s s , i f t h e y

s e e m e d – t h a t fe e li n g y o u g e t i n s i d e o f y o u , t h a t e v e r y t h in g ’s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d l e t m e j u s t b e c le a r a b o u t t h i s , w o u l d y o u

m e e t t h e m a l w a y s a t t h e ir b u s i n e s s e s , w h e n y o u h a d t h i s d i s c u s s i o n
with them?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s b e c a u s e I w a n te d t o d o th e s i te v is i ts

and see if it was safe.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u a l w a y s m e t th e m a t t h e b u s i n e s s ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w o u ld s a y y e s C h a ir.
A n d y o u h a d a b i t o f a d is c u s s i o n a n d th e n

y o u g o t a f e e l in g a b o u t w h e t h e r i t w a s a l e g i ti m a t e b u s i n e s s a n d o n
t h a t b a s is y o u ’ d c o n ti n u e to c o n d u c t b u s in e s s w i t h th e m ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And are you aware, under FICA, of your

o b li g a ti o n s t o e s t a b l is h t h e s o u r c e o f f u n d s o f a n y b u s i n e s s t h a t y o u
e n t e r i n t o a b u s i n e s s tr a n s a c ti o n w it h ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o C h a ir.
Not aware of that?
N o C h a ir.
I t a k e i t – y o u r a ffi d a v i t d e s c r i p ti o n ta lk s

a b o u t th is o n e i n i ti a l e n g a g e m e n t w h e r e , if y o u ’r e s a tis f ie d t h e n y o u
r e g a r d i t a s a c c e p t a b le t o c o n ti n u e i n b u s i n e s s w i t h t h a t e n t it y o r
10

in d i v i d u a l , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
D i d y o u d o a n y fo ll o w - u p s in r e l a ti o n t o t h e

businesses?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I take it then you aren’t aware that under

F I C A y o u w e r e r e q u ir e d to r e g u la r d u e d i l ig e n c e s o f th e b u s in e s s w i th
w h ic h y o u tr a n s a c t e d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

W h a t d u e d il i g e n c e w o u ld t h a t b e C h a ir ?
To c o n t in u e t o c h e c k t h e s o u r c e o f f u n d s o f

t h e b u s i n e s s e s w i t h w h ic h y o u tr a n s a c te d .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

So you

w o u l d s a tis f y y o u r s e l f a t t h e

c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e b u s in e s s r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ev e r y t h in g w a s i n o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t t h e y w e r e l e g i t i m a t e – th e y w e r e a l e g i ti m a t e

Page 52 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
business and everything seemed to be in order and thereafter as long
a s y o u c o n t in u e d to h a v e t h a t f e e li n g t h a t th e y w e r e fi n e y o u w o u ld
then not do any further check.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
understand

your

N o C h a ir.

T h e n le t ’s m o v e t o t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d it i o n s , I

e v id e n c e

to

be,

sometimes

they

were

s ig n e d

s o m e t i m e s t h e y w e r e n ’ t , c a n y o u ju s t t a k e u s th r o u g h h o w t h a t
happened?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Where are we now?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u t a lk a b o u t – a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 5

p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 . 3 , y o u s a y t h e r e ,
“ I n s o fa r a s e x i s ti n g c l i e n ts w e r e c o n c e r n e d A M F S w o u l d fo ll o w
a l l o f t h e a b o v e s te p s b u t a s t h e r e w a s n o o b li g a ti o n o n i t t o
h a v e w r i t te n te r ms a n d c o n d i t io n s i n p l a c e w i t h i t ’s c li e n ts , a s I
k n e w t h e c l ie n t a lr e a d y a n d t h e y w e r e f a m il i a r w i t h o u r t e r m s
a n d c o n d it i o n s o f b u s i n e s s I w o u l d n o t i n s i s t t h a t o u r t e r m s
a n d c o n d i ti o n s b e s ig n e d ” ,
Do you see that?
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o i n t h is c a s e , w i th th is s p e c i f ic c l ie n t I

d i d s e n d t h e m th e te r ms a n d c o n d it i o n s b u t t h e y n e v e r s e n t i t b a c k t o
me signed.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

N o i n d e e d , w e ’ ll g e t t o t h e s p e c i fi c c l i e n t

t h a t ’s r e l e v a n t t o th e s e p r o c e e d in g s , a t th is s t a g e I ’ m j u s t t a lk i n g
g e n e r a l ly i n te r m s o f y o u r b u s i n e s s .

I understand you to be saying

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
h e r e , t h a t y o u w o u l d n ’ t r e q u ir e te r ms a n d c o n d i ti o n s t o b e s i g n e d w it h
e x i s ti n g c l ie n ts , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w t h e n w o u l d y o u b e s a tis f ie d a s t o y o u r

le g a l r ig h ts a n d o b li g a t i o n s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h o s e c u s t o m e r s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I w a s j u s t s a ti s f i e d , I w a s h a p p y, I w a s

s a ti s f i e d , th e y u n d e r s t o o d t h e p r o c e s s , I u n d e r s t o o d t h e p r o c e s s , I w a s
s a ti s f i e d C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A n d in r e l a ti o n t o n e w c l ie n ts .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e y s i g n e d t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s .

I’ m s o r r y w e r e y o u r te r ms a n d c o n d i ti o n s t h e s a m e

a s th o s e o f y o u r p r e v i o u s e m p l o y e r ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

O k a y s o i n o t h e r w o r d s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o l e t m e m a y b e e x p la i n t h i s , t h e te r ms

a n d c o n d i ti o n s w e r e th e s a m e b u t t h e c o n t r a c t w a s n o t t h e s a m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t t o c la r i fy.
S o t h e w r i t t e n t e x t d i ff e r e d , is th a t r i g h t?
Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .
B u t t h e u p s h o t o f w h a t y o u w e r e d o in g – w e l l

t h e b u s i n e s s o f R u s t ic S t o n e a n d w h a t i t ’s c li e n ts c o u l d a s s u m e w o u l d
h a p p e n i n t h e b u s i n e s s , w h a t y o u r o b li g a t io n s w e r e a n d w h a t th e ir
o b li g a ti o n s w e r e w a s th e s a m e w h e n y o u m o v e d i n t o A M F S , i s t h a t
correct?

Page 54 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th e g is t o f i t w a s t h e s a m e c o r r e c t .
T h e I w o u l d li k e – s o w e ’v e d o n e t h e

p r o c e s s e s y o u h a d d e v e l o p e d i t f o r v e t ti n g , i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o
p a g e 6 y o u t h e n t e ll u s h o w t h e c a s h d e li v e r y p r o c e s s w o u l d w o r k fr o m
A M F S a n d I’ d lik e u s t o p l e a s e g o t h r o u g h t h a t . Yo u s e t it o u t in s o m e
d e t a i l t h e r e a n d t h e d e t a i l is i m p o r t a n t , s o if y o u c o u ld t a k e u s t h r o u g h
e a c h o f t h e s t e p s , f o r h o w y o u w o u l d p r o c e s s a d e li v e r y o f c a s h .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

O k a y, m y c l i e n t w o u l d c o n t a c t m e s a y in g

t h e y n e e d a c e r ta in a m o u n t o f f u n d s … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n w e j u s t s t o p t h e r e , h o w w o u ld t h e y

c o n ta c t y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

With a phone.
Thank you.
I w o u l d th e n c o m p il e a l l o f t h a t a n d s e n d i t

t o th e s e r v i c e p r o v id e r a n d th e n t h e y w o u l d p a c k t h e fu n d s in t o c l e a r
b a g s a n d m a d e s u r e t h a t i t ’s b e e n c o u n te d a n d t h e n m y d r iv e r s w o u ld
g o a n d p i c k i t u p a n d d o t h e d e l iv e r i e s a f te r w a r d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y, i f I m a y, I’ d li k e t o u n p a c k t h a t a l i tt l e

b i t fu r t h e r.
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.
S o i t s t a r ts w i t h a t e le p h o n e c a ll fr o m a

c li e n t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
W h a t d o e s t h e c li e n t s a y t o y o u o n t h e c a l l?
We need a certain amount of funds.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t, t h e n w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n .

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : D o y o u w a n t it n o w … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In d e t a i l .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I n d e t a i l, o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o l e t ’s g o t h r o u g h a d a y i n t h e l if e o f

A M F S r ig h t b e c a u s e I u n d e r s ta n d t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s h a p p e n e d w i t h i n a
d a y, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s it ’s f a s t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

R i g h t , s o y o u g e t a c a ll , I a s s u m e i n t h e

m o r n in g .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
L t ’s u s e a h y p o t h e t ic a l e x a m p l e .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

It is in the m orning.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u g e t a c a l l , y o u r c l i e n t s a y s I n e e d

5 m il li o n r a n d i n c a s h t o d a y, w h a t is th e n e x t e v e n t t h a t h a p p e n s ?
MS

KALANDRA

VILJOEN:

I

wait

for

the

funds

to

come

in … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

To c o m e i n , s o s o r r y.
Into the bank account.
S o t h e y d e p o s it , i f I t a k e y o u r l a n g u a g e a t

p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 . 4 .1 , th e y d e p o s it 5 m il li o n r a n d i n to t h e A M F S b a n k
a c c o u n t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
W h a t h a p p e n s t h e n … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

And who is they now?

Page 56 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e c li e n t .

I th o u g h t y o u s a i d e a r li e r o n , th e y w o u l d s a y t h e y

need so much.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s s o th e y w o u ld s a y t o m e – t h e y w o u l d

c a l l a n d s a y th e y n e e d 5 m ill i o n a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d tr a n s f e r t h e
5 m il li o n in t o th e a c c o u n t – i n to m y b a n k a c c o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n t h e y n e e d e d li k e 5 m i ll io n , d i d t h a t m e a n

t h e y n e e d e d y o u t o tr a n s f e r 5 m i ll io n f o r t h e m w h a t d i d t h a t m e a n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

No, no I’m going to explain the whole

s i tu a ti o n … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h e n e e d fi r s t, y o u w e r e

a s k e d , w h a t t h e y w o u l d s a y to y o u … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

T h e y w o u l d l i k e t o h a v e 5 m il li o n , t h e y a r e

o r d e r i n g 5 m il li o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w h e n t h e y s a i d t h a t w e r e th e y a s k in g y o u to

g iv e t h e m 5 m i ll io n r a n d .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d i d th a t m e a n ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I t m e a n s t h a t t h e y o r d e r i n g 5 m i ll io n .

O r d e r i n g fr o m w h o m ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

Fr o m m e .

Yo u w o u l d h a v e m o n e y a n d y o u w o u ld g i v e i t t o

them?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o C h a ir, I w o u ld t h e n g o o n a n d o r d e r it

fr o m t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON:

In your name?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r b e in g a b a n k ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s S B V a n d t h e f o u r b a n k s o w n S B V.

O h o k a y w o u l d th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a lw a y s b e S B V ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y, n o w I t h i n k y o u ju s t s a id t h a t – o r s o m e th in g

t h a t I u n d e r s t o o d t o b e t h e c li e n t w o u ld p r o v id e m o n e y to y o u o r d i d I
m is u n d e r s t a n d y o u .
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s s o t h e y w o u l d o r d e r t h e f u n d s fr o m m e

a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d tr a n s fe r t h e fu n d s in t o m y a c c o u n t a n d t h e n I
w o u ld tr a n s f e r i t i n t o S B V ’s a c c o u n t a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d p a c k i t a n d
m a k e s u r e th a t i t i s t h e r i g h t q u a n ti t ie s a s w e n e e d i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e “ t h e y ” is y o u r c li e n t , i n i t ia ll y … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Excuse me.

Th e y p h o n e y o u , i s t h a t y o u r c l i e n t .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y s a y th e y n e e d m o n e y.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s y o u r c l ie n t s ti ll .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d t h e n th e y, b e i n g y o u r c li e n t , tr a n s fe r m o n e y in t o

your account.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s r i g h t C h a ir.

T h a t’s t h e p a r t I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

I n d e e d C h a ir, i f I m a y b e o f a s s is t a n c e .

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h e n t h e y s a y t h e y n e e d 5 m il li o n , a m I

c o r r e c t in u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e y a r e s a y in g th e y n e e d 5 m i ll io n i n c a s h ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

O h t h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R ig h t s o t h e y h a v e 5 m i ll io n in t h e ir a c c o u n t

b e c a u s e o th e r w i s e t h is tr a n s a c ti o n is n o t g o i n g t o ta k e p l a c e .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Ye s it c a n ’ t S B V. . . ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

Yo u r c l i e n t p h o n e s y o u in t h e m o r n i n g t h e y ’v e

g o t 5 m i ll io n i n t h e ir a c c o u n t, th e y s a y w e w a n t t h i s 5 m il li o n in c a s h
t o d a y, c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Correct yes.

Th e y t h e n tr a n s f e r t h e 5 mi ll i o n i n to y o u r b a n k

a c c o u n t , A M F S ’s b a n k a c c o u n t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e t h e y w a n t , w i th in t h e d a y, th a t

5 m il li o n r a n d t h a t c o m e s to y o u i n a E F T t o b e c o n v e r t e d t o c a s h t o b e
d e li v e r e d to t h e m , c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .
R i g h t , le t ’s ju s t g o … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

O k a y n o w I t h i n k th a t’s h e l p fu l , s o th e y ’v e g o t

5 m il li o n b u t n o t i n t h e f o r m o f c a s h .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t , y e s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e y w a n t y o u to t a k e w h a t e v e r s t e p s y o u n e e d to
t a k e to p r o v id e t h e m o n th a t s a m e d a y w i t h c a s h t o th e v a lu e o f

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
5 m il li o n .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, n o w I u n d e r s t a n d .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t s o w e ’r e a t t h e p o i n t a t w h ic h – b e c a u s e

t h e s e q u e n c e is v e r y i m p o r t a n t , t h a t ’s w h y I’ m w a n ti n g to b r e a k i t d o w n ,
y o u g e t y o u r c a ll , y o u r c l ie n t s a y s 5 m i ll io n r a n d is g o i n g t o c o m e i n to
y o u r a c c o u n t to d a y, I n e e d t h a t c a s h y o u – w h a t th e n h a p p e n s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
I
10

w il l

c a ll

the

c l ie n t

S o i f t h e fu n d s c o m e i n t o th e b a n k a c c o u n t
and

c o n f ir m

that

i t ’s

t h e ir

fu n d s

and

t h e n … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y j u s t , if w e c a n s t o p t h e r e j u s t fo r a

m o m e n t , s o y o u g o t a c a ll i n th e m o r n i n g , n o w a r e y o u w a tc h i n g y o u r
b a n k a c c o u n t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I d o a n d I ’v e g o t - I h a d th e te x t m e s s a g e

a l e r t th a t c o m e s t h r o u g h a s w e l l b u t I a m w a t c h in g m y b a n k a c c o u n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d h o w m a n y c a l ls a r e y o u g e t ti n g o n a n

average morning?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o b y th e n e n d o f 2 0 1 7 I w o u l d g e t u p t o a

h u n d r e d p h o n e c a l ls a d a y, my p h o n e n e v e r s t o p p e d .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y, le t ’s j u s t g e t i t r ig h t , y o u ’r e

g e t t in g … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Business was good.

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th is w a s 2 0 1 7 y e s .
In y o u r p e a k o f h a l f a b i ll io n r a n d a m o n t h .
I t w a s b u s y.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t s o y o u g e t a c a l l i n th e m o r n in g fr o m

a b o u t a h u n d r e d p e o p l e w h o s a y – t h is i s o n a v e r a g e – t h e y n e e d c a s h
in v a r io u s a m o u n t s , c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e n y o u w a tc h y o u r b a n k a c c o u n t f o r w h e n

t h o s e f u n d s c o m e in , c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .
N o w if t h e r e a r e a h u n d r e d t h a t a r e c o m i n g

in , in t h e c o u r s e o f a m o r n in g , h o w d o y o u w o r k o u t w h ic h o f th o s e
10

p a y m e n t s r e l a t e t o w h i c h c li e n t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o m e o f th e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r s I w o u ld

r e c o g n is e b u t t h e o n e s I d i d n ’ t I w o u ld c a ll t h e c l ie n ts a n d s a y, m o n e y
h a s b e e n d e p o s i te d in m y a c c o u n t , c a n y o u c o n fi r m th e r e fe r e n c e a n d
t h e n … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n I j u s t – s o r r y, j u s t th e r e , s o i t w a s n ’t a

r e q u ir e m e n t o f y o u r t e r m s a n d c o n d it i o n s w i t h y o u r c li e n t s t h a t th e y u s e
a p a r ti c u l a r r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

No.
S o s o m e ti m e s y o u ’d b e l u c k y e n o u g h t o

r e c o g n is e a r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r t h a t w o u l d r e l a te t o a p a r tic u la r c l ie n t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W o u l d y o u t h e n r e g a r d t h a t a s s a t is f a c t o r y

in d i c a t io n to y o u th a t th e c a s h s h o u ld b e d e l iv e r e d t o t h e m ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t s o m e ti m e s y o u ’d g e t o t h e r r e fe r e n c e s ,

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
correct?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L ik e B K .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then what would you do when you saw

B K c o m e i n w i th 5 m il li o n r a n d fo r e x a m p le ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o t h e c l ie n t t h a t w o u l d h a v e c a ll e d

s a y in g th a t t h e y w a n t 5 m il li o n , I w o u l d c a l l t h e m a n d t h e n c o n fir m
w h e t h e r i t’s t h e i r f u n d s , w h a t ’s t h e r e f e r e n c e th e y u s e d …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

J a j u s t fi n is h .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s a ll C h a ir.

W a s – w e r e th e r e q u e s t s a l w a y s t e l e p h o n ic a n d

n o t in w r i t i n g o r s o m e ti m e s i n w r i ti n g ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o C h a ir s o m e o f th e m w e r e i n w r i t in g

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B y w a y o f e m a il ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

G iv e u s a s e n s e o f th e o r d e r o f m a g n i t u d e ,

h o w m a n y w e r e t e l e p h o n i c a n d h o w m a n y w e r e e m a i l, ju s t i n a
p r o p o r ti o n .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I c a n n o t a n s w e r th a t , I w o u ld s a y m o s t o f

t h e m w e r e p r o b a b ly o n p h o n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e l l t h a t’s c e r ta in ly c o n s i s te n t w i t h w h a t y o u

s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 . 4 b e c a u s e t h e r e y o u o n ly s p e a k a b o u t b e i n g

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
c o n ta c t e d te le p h o n ic a l ly b y a r e p r e s e n t a ti v e . S o t h e m a j o r i ty o f t h e s e
r e q u e s ts a r e c o m in g i n o n p h o n e c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
ADV

K AT E

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

HOFMEYR:

Okay

so

now

w e ’r e

at

the

p o i n t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – I ’ m s o r r y a g a i n , s o w o u ld s o m e o f t h e r e q u e s ts

b e b y w a y o f S M S ’s o r W h a t s A p p , ju s t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e te n e s s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I c a n ’ t r e c a l l i f p e o p le S M S ’ e d it w a s

m a jo r i ty p h o n e c a ll s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o th a t ’s fi n e .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

S o e ff e c t iv e ly w h e n y o u w e r e d e l iv e r in g c a s h to a

c li e n t , t o t h e v a l u e t h a t th e c l ie n t h a d s p e c i f ie d i n th e i r r e q u e s t in t h e
m o r n in g , y o u w e r e b a s ic a ll y g iv in g th e m … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Their own money back.

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s i n c a s h fo r m .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

Th e i r o w n m o n e y b a c k .

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

J a a n d y o u r e t a i n e d w h a t t h e y h a d i n e ff e c t , t h e y

d i d n ’ t h a v e c a s h b u t t h e y d i d h a v e 5 m i ll io n , t h e y t r a n s f e r r e d t h a t to y o u
a n d y o u s e c u r e c a s h a n d g i v e t h e m t h e c a s h fo r m o f t h a t a m o u n t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r I s e e w e a r e a t t h e u s u a l ti m e f o r t h e t e a

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
b r e a k , i f i t’s c o n v e n ie n t t o a d j o u r n n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s l e t ’s t a k e t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t f o r t e a , w e ’ ll

r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t e l e v e n , w e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s Vil j o e n w e h a d c o n c l u d e d
y o u r e v i d e n c e a t th e b o t t o m o f p a g e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t j u s t b e f o r e t h e
b r e a k th a t is w h e r e y o u w e r e te ll i n g u s t h a t w h e r e y o u w e r e n o t s u r e o f
10

t h e r e fe r e n c e y o u w o u l d m a k e t e le p h o n ic c o n t a c t b a c k w i t h t h e c l ie n t
a n d c h e c k w i t h t h e m w h e t h e r t h e m o n e y y o u h a d r e c e i v e d w a s fr o m
t h e m , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 7 y o u
s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 .4 . 5 .
“ I f t h e a m o u n t a n d t h e r e f e r e n c e g iv e n a d d e d u p t o
the amount that was deposited and the reference
s h o w n i n my b a n k s t a te m e n t I w o u l d c e r t a in th a t t h e
f u n d s b e lo n g e d t o t h a t c li e n t a n d w o u l d t h e n b e i n a

20

p o s i ti o n to d e li v e r t h e f u n d s t o t h e c li e n t. ”
Do you see that?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s I d o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t w a n t t o e x p l o r e y o u r s t a t e m e n t th e r e t h a t
y o u c o u l d b e c e r ta i n o f t h e o r ig in o f t h e f u n d s h a v i n g a d o p t e d th is
m e t h o d . O k a y. H o w c o u l d y o u b e c e r ta in a s t o th e o r i g i n o f t h e f u n d s

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b y u s i n g t h is m e th o d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

A s tr a n g e p e r s o n t h a t d i d n o t d o th e

p a y m e n t w o u l d n o t k n o w th e a m o u n t n o r t h e r e f e r e n c e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u h a d a s k e d fo r n o e v i d e n c e o f t h e b a n k
a c c o u n t fr o m w h ic h th e f u n d s w e r e p a i d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o I d i d n o t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I w a s s a t is fi e d t h a t o n c e t h e y c o n fi r m e d

v e r b a l ly th a t t h e fu n d s w e r e i n d e e d th e i r s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t t h e n y o u r s y s t e m a ll o w e d a s i t u a t io n t o

d e v e l o p a s w e w i ll s e e i t d i d i n s o m e o c c a s io n s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e y o u r c li e n t w o u ld p h o n e a n d s a y, I n e e d
R 5 m il li o n i n c a s h b u t w o u l d t h e n n o t b e t h e p e r s o n o r e n ti t y t h a t i n
fact deposited money in your account, correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h is c a m e t o l i g h t a ft e r w a r d s s o y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u s a y y o u c o u ld b e c e r t a in t h a t t h e
f u n d s b e l o n g e d t o th e c li e n t t h a t i s n o t c o r r e c t , is i t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: At that point it was.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e ll l e t u s e x p l o r e t h a t .

I f t h e c li e n t s i m p ly

s a i d to y o u t e l e p h o n i c a ll y I n e e d R 5 m il li o n in c a s h a n d t h e n
s u b s e q u e n t ly a p a y m e n t c a m e i n in t h a t a m o u n t o t h e r th a n p h o n i n g t h e
c li e n t b a c k f o r th e i r v e r b a l c o n fir m a t i o n y o u h a d n o o t h e r w a y o f
c h e c k i n g t h a t th is w a s n o t p r o c e e d s fr o m s o m e o t h e r e n ti t y, c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u c o u l d n o t b e c e r t a i n t h a t it w a s t h a t

c li e n t ’s m o n e y, c o u l d y o u ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o w lo o k i n g a t th e b i g g e r p ic t u r e y e s I w a s
n o t c e r t a in b u t a t th a t p o i n t w h e n t h e c li e n t c o n fir m e d t h e n a m e a n d th e
amount I was certain.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t h o u g h t y o u w e r e c e r t a i n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I thought I was certain.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n s n e x t i n th e s e q u e n c e ?
10

Yo u c a n p ic k t h a t u p a t 5 . 1 .4 . 6 .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s I w o u l d s u b tr a c t m y fe e a n d I w o u ld

t h e n c o n s o l i d a t e t h e w h o l e c a s h o r d e r a n d s e n d i t to m y s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r a n d o f c o u r s e I w o u l d p a y t h e f u n d s o v e r to t h e m a n d t h e y
w o u ld d o t h e p a c k i n g a n d t h e c o u n ti n g a n d t h e n my d r iv e r s w o u l d g o
p ic k i t u p o n c e i t h a s b e e n r e a d y – o n c e i t is r e a d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s ju s t s p e n d a b i t o f ti m e o n th e s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r. W h o w a s t h e s e r v i c e p r o v id e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S B V.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s S B V ?
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

A g a i n a s I e x p l a i n e d t o th e C h a ir S B V i s

owned by the four banks.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s i t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y d o d is tr ib u ti o n o f f u n d s fo r t h e b a n k s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a r e th e y li k e a c a s h w a r e h o u s e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

T h e y a r e – t h e y a r e a c a s h i n tr a n s i t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
b u s i n e s s a n d t h e y a r e w h a t I c a n y e s a s s u m e is a c a s h w a r e h o u s e . B u t
t h e y d o c a s h i n t r a n s i t a s w e l l.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u a r e o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r

b u s i n e s s a c a s h i n t r a n s i t b u s i n e s s a n d y o u r e c e i v e fu n d s t h r o u g h a
d e p o s it in t o y o u r b u s in e s s ’ b a n k a c c o u n t , c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s . C o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u th e n t a k e a f e e o ff t h a t a m o u n t , c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t f e e a s I h a v e it fr o m y o u r a ff id a v i t w a s
10

in g e n e r a l . 3 % , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n y o u w o u ld p a y o v e r t h e n e t t p r o c e e d s t o
a n o t h e r c a s h in tr a n s i t b u s i n e s s , c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h a t b u s in e s s w o u ld p a c k t h e f u n d s ,
t h e m o n e y.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r d r i v e r s w o u l d g o a n d c o l le c t i t , is t h a t
correct?

20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n t o t h e f u n d s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Th e y w o u l d b e d e liv e r e d to t h e v a r i o u s
c li e n t s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d – a p o l o g i e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Pl e a s e e x p la in to m e w h y a n y c l ie n t w o u l d f e e l

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h a t th e y n e e d e d y o u r s e r v ic e s b e c a u s e I t a k e i t th a t is i f S B V w a s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O u r v e h ic le s w e r e u n m a r k e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

If S B V w a s a n e n ti ty

o w n e d b y t h e fo u r b a n k s , b ig b a n k s I g u e s s y o u m e a n a n d t h e y w e r e
t h e r e t o d e liv e r c a s h t o c li e n t s I a s s u m e w h y d i d th e c li e n t s n o t w h o
n e e d e d y o u r s e r v ic e – o r fe l t t h e y – w h o c o n t a c t e d y o u w h y d id t h e y n o t
c o n ta c t S B V o r t h e b a n k s d ir e c tl y a n d s a y, y o u k n o w I h a v e g o t m o n e y,
I h a v e g o t a n a c c o u n t w i t h , I h a v e g o t m o n e y, I n e e d c a s h a n d th e n t h e
b a n k s w o u l d c o n t a c t S B V a n d S B V w o u ld d e l iv e r ?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

T h a t i s a g o o d q u e s ti o n .

SBV has got

m a r k e d v e h i c l e s a n d m o s t o f t h e c l ie n ts d o n o t l ik e w h e n a b i g tr u c k
w i t h l o ts o f m o n e y s to p s i n fr o n t o f t h e ir p r e m is e s a n d p e o p l e c a n th e n
s e e t h a t th e y a r e r e c e iv i n g fu n d s . S o o u r v e h ic l e s w e r e u n m a r k e d a n d
t h e n a t t h a t p o i n t w e o ffe r e d a s a m e d a y d e li v e r y w h e r e s o m e o f t h e
c a s h i n t r a n s i t b u s in e s s d i d n o t o ff e r s a m e d a y d e liv e r y. F o r – a s f o r
t h e c li e n ts n o t g o in g to t h e b a n k p h y s ic a ll y s o m e t i m e s i t is n o t s a fe f o r
t h e m t o g o t o t h e b a n k to c o ll e c t fu n d s fr o m a b a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I w a s n o t s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e y s h o u l d c o ll e c t
t h e m o n e y t h e m s e l v e s b u t I w a s – I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t w h y t h e y w o u l d
20

not…
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e h a d th e u n m a r k e d …
CHAIRPERSON:

Get rid of you or not m ake use of your services go

d ir e c t to t h e b a n k s a n d if t h e b a n k s s a y u s e S B V b e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e
e n t i ty w e h a v e c r e a t e d , th e y p h o n e S B V a n d s a y c a n y o u c o n fir m w i t h
m y b a n k i t is o n e o f t h e f o u r – th e b ig f o u r, I h a v e g o t t h e m o n e y b u t I

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
need cash.

A n d t h e n S B V c a n li a i s e w i t h t h e b a n k , g e t w h a t e v e r

c o n fir m a t io n i f th e y n e e d t o b u t th e n t a k e th e m o n e y a n d d e li v e r i t t o
t h e c li e n t . Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t s o m e o f th e c l ie n ts m a y b e a l l t h e c li e n ts
t h a t c a m e t o y o u d i d n o t w a n t a m a r k e d v e h ic l e fr o m S B V c o m i n g t o
t h e ir p r e m i s e s b e c a u s e t h e n …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It b e c o m e s a s e c u r i t y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C r i m in a ls w o u l d k n o w t h a t th e y w e r e b r in g i n g m o n e y.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h y w o u l d S B V p r o v i d e u n m a r k e d v e h ic le s ?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o , n o t h e u n m a r k e d v e h ic le s w e r e o u r

v e h ic l e s .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – f r o m w h a t y o u h a v e e x p l a i n e d t o m e t h e n e e d
t o u s e y o u r s e r v i c e s a r o s e f r o m t h e f a c t t h a t S B V ’s v e h ic le s w e r e
marked?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c li e n ts d i d n o t w a n t t o h a v e S B V v e h i c l e s s e e n
a r r iv i n g i n t h e ir p r e m is e s b e c a u s e th e n c r i m i n a ls w o u ld s e e t h a t m o n e y
20

w a s b r o u g h t th e r e . S o – a n d I w o u l d i m a g i n e S B V a n d t h e b a n k s w h ic h
c r e a te d S B V k n e w a b o u t t h a t c o n c e r n a n d I w o n d e r i n g w h y S B V d i d n o t
d e c i d e t o p r o v i d e u n m a r k e d v e h ic le s b e c a u s e t h e n …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I c a n n o t a n s w e r f o r S B V.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e n t h e r e w o u l d b e n o n e e d fo r t h e ir
c li e n t – f o r th e b a n k ’s c l i e n ts to s p e n d m o n e y t o p a y to y o u o r s e r v ic e s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
lik e y o u r s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s , n o I h e a r w h a t y o u s a y in g b u t I c a n n o t
a n s w e r f o r S B V w h y t h e y d o n o t h a v e u n m a r k e d v e h ic l e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vi lj o e n d o y o u a s a f a c t th a t S B V h a s n o

u n m a r k e d v e h ic l e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o I d o n o t k n o w t h a t a s a fa c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

L e t u s j u s t g e t c l e a r.

So you

c h a r g e d a f e e o f .3 % .
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t to f o l lo w u p o n t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n s . If
t h is w a s a tr a n s a c ti o n j u s t b e t w e e n th e c li e n t a n d t h e b a n k d o y o u k n o w
whether the bank would charge a .3%?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e b a n k w o u l d c h a r g e a fu ll p e r c e n t i f th e y
h a d to g o t o a b r a n c h a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y th e y w o u l d c h a r g e h o w m u c h ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: A full percent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f u l l p e r c e n t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r a c a s h w i th d r a w a l .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

A n d t h e n i f th e y w e n t w i t h S B V b e c a u s e I

o r i g in a l ly g o t a q u o t e fr o m S B V b e fo r e t h e y b e c a m e a s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r
t h e y w o u l d h a v e c h a r g e d a li t tl e b i t m o r e t h a n w h a t I c h a r g e d .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So it seems that there are two reasons.

Yo u

were charging less and you had unm arked vehicles but to your
knowledge you do not know whether SBV did not have unmarked
v e h ic l e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A n d a l s o w e o ff e r e d s a m e d a y d e liv e r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h a t c o u l d b e a r r a n g e d

with the banks?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I a m s u r e i t c o u l d . I d o n o t w a n t t o c o n fir m
o r d e n y b u t I a m s u r e m a y b e i t c o u ld .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n I – a s I h a v e i t y o u r d r i v e r w o u l d g o
a n d c o l l e c t f r o m S B V a n d t h e n w o u l d d e l iv e r to t h e c li e n t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e r e w o u l d t h e y d e li v e r t o th e c li e n t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A t t h e ir p r e m is e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h ic h p r e m i s e s w o u ld t h o s e b e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e ir p l a c e o f b u s i n e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

A n d w o u ld th a t b e t h e p r e m i s e s t h a t y o u h a d

v e t te d i n y o u r s i t e v is i t o r i g in a l ly ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h a t a l w a y s t h e c a s e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u a lw a y s h a v e t h e – in y o u r r e c o r d s t h e

a d d r e s s e d o f e a c h c l ie n t – t h e a d d r e s s o f e a c h c l ie n t w h e r e c a s h w a s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t o b e d e l iv e r e d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G iv e n t h a t t h e q u e s ti o n s c o m e u p C h a ir m a y b e
w e c a n j u s t g o to t h e c h e c k li s t th a t M s Vi lj o e n u s e d t o c o m p l e t e .

I

h a v e t h a t a t p a g e 2 9 o f t h e p a p e r s . Th is i s i n Ex h i b i t D D 9 . M s Vil jo e n
is th is th e c h e c k li s t y o u w o u ld c o m p le t e w it h y o u r c l i e n t s i n t h e v e t t in g
process?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u s e e t h e r e y o u h a v e g o t th e n a m e o f
t h is p a r tic u l a r c li e n t. Yo u h a v e g o t a n I D n u m b e r, y o u h a v e a n i n c o m e
t a x n u m b e r, t h i s i s w h a t y o u w e n t t h r o u g h w i th u s i n y o u r p r e v io u s
evidence.

A n d th e n y o u h a v e a n a d d r e s s t h e r e a s w e l l, d o y o u s e e

that?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i s t h a t t h e a d d r e s s t h a t y o u v e t t e d fo r t h e

p u r p o s e s o f t h is c l i e n t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

I t h i n k y o u s a y t h a t l a t e r i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t . S o

t h is i s y o u r r e c o r d a s s o c ia t e d w i t h t h i s c li e n t i n s o fa r a s y o u r v e t ti n g
w a s c o n c e r n e d , is th a t r i g h t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u r – I a m s o r r y i f y o u r c l ie n t w a s a l e g a l e n t it y

lik e a c o m p a n y o r a C C I s e e h e r e y o u r c li e n t w a s a p e r s o n .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I vetted the person.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a y o u v e t t e d t h e p e r s o n y o u c o n s id e r e d t o b e in

c h a r g e o f t h e e n ti ty ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O n l y o r a l s o t h e e n t i ty ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No just the person.
CHAIRPERSON: Just the person?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. W e w il l r e t u r n to t h a t a l i t tl e
b i t la t e r w h e n w e g e t i n t o t h e d e t a i ls o f th a t p a r t ic u l a r c li e n t . B u t l e t u s
ju s t u n d e r s t a n d .

Now in the sequence we have got your unmarked

a r m e d v e h ic le s g o in g t o d e l iv e r t o t h e a d d r e s s w h ic h i s r e f le c te d o n
y o u r c h e c k l is t fo r a n y c li e n t , c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e n w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n w h e n t h e y

r e a c h e d th e p r e m i s e s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o t h e c li e n t w o u l d – s o m e c l ie n ts w o u ld

c h e c k t o m a k e s u r e e v e r y t h in g w a s i n o r d e r b e c a u s e it w a s p a c k e d i n
20

c le a r b a g s a n d t h e n th e y w o u l d s i g n a d e li v e r y s li p a n d m y d r iv e r s
w o u ld b e t h e ir w a y a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n I j u s t a s k a b o v e t h a t I f o r g o t . A t 5 .1 . 4 .8

you say:
“The cash would be packed by SBV in clear sealed
p l a s ti c b a g s a n d s a m e c o u ld b e c o u n t e d w i t h o u t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
having to open the bag.”
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w w a s t h a t p o s s ib le ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
count it.

So you can count it 10, 20, 30 you can

S o m e t i m e s t h e r e w e r e m o n e y m is s i n g l ik e a R 1 0 0 0 , 0 0 b u t

t h e n I w o u l d ju s t c o n t a c t S B V w it h t h e s e a l n u m b e r a n d I w il l s a y t o
t h e m t h e r e i s m o n e y m is s i n g c a n y o u m a y b e j u s t c h e c k w h a t h a p p e n e d
there?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u w o u ld b e a b l e t h r o u g h th e b a g a t le a s t
10

t o s e e th e …
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

M o r e o r le s s

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p a c k s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t w o u l d b e m o r e o r l e s s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e o f c o u r s e i f th e r e w a s a n e r r o r in

p u t t in g to g e th e r o n e p a c k y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u r d r iv e r s d o a g e n e r a l c h e c k ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h e y w o u ld
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e a m o u n t s t h a t w e r e b e i n g d e liv e r e d .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h e y w o u ld .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h e f u n d s a r e h a n d e d o v e r a s I h a v e
t h e e v id e n c e a n d t h e r e is s o m e d e li v e r y s li p t h a t is s i g n e d .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t h a p p e n s t o t h o s e s l ip s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h o s e s l ip s w o u l d c o m e b a c k t o m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l …
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

T h e c li e n t w o u l d k e e p a s li p a n d th e n th e

c a r b o n c o p y w o u ld t h e n c o m e b a c k to m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d l e t u s j u s t lo o k a t o n e o f th o s e s li p s i f w e
m a y ? Yo u h a v e i t a t p a g e – i t is – y o u w i ll fi n d i t a t 2 4 in E x h i b i t D D 9 .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t y o u r s t a n d a r d d e liv e r y s l ip ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Is t h is th e s a m e o n e y o u u s e d t h r o u g h o u t t h e

business of AMF S?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h r o u g h o u t th a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s ju s t l o o k a t th e b o t t o m o n e . T h a t is a

d e li v e r y s l i p d a te d th e 1 2 A p r il 2 0 1 6 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d h o w m u c h i n c a s h w a s d e li v e r e d to t h a t

c li e n t o n t h a t d a y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : R 1 5 m il li o n .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R 1 5 m i lli o n i n c a s h a n d t h e c l i e n t i s – w h a t is
t h e c li e n t t h e r e ? O r w h o is th e c li e n t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: G Markides.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w h a t i s t h a t n o t a ti o n u n d e r c o m p a n y

stamp?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w o u l d u s e c o d e s f o r th e c li e n t s s o if a s l i p

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
e i t h e r w e n t m is s i n g o r th e y l o s t a s l ip it d o e s n o t h a v e t h e a c t u a l
c o m p a n y d e t a i ls o n th e r e w h e r e p e o p l e m i g h t t h e n k n o w th e r e is –
t h e r e i s c a s h o n th e p r e m i s e s . S o w e u s e c o d e s f o r o u r c l ie n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Are you referring to the code – to the

number below company stamp?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t n u m b e r th a t y o u w o u l d w r i te t h e r e w o u l d

represent what?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t w o u ld r e p r e s e n t a c e r t a i n c l i e n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A c e r t a i n c li e n t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w o u l d u s e t h e s a m e c o d e t h r o u g h o u t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

F o r t h e s a m e c li e n t t h a t i s c o r r e c t y e s

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay you would put in that if there was no stamp?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ex c u s e m e C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u l d p u t th e c o d e i f th e r e w a s n o c o m p a n y

s t a m p o r y o u w o u ld p u t t h e c o d e e v e n i f t h e r e w a s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o w e w o u l d t h e c o d e d o w n a ll t h e ti m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll t h e t i m e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say the purpose for the code was what?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I f t h is s l i p h a d t o g o m is s i n g a n d s o m e o n e
p ic k e d i t u p a n d a c o m p a n y s t a m p w a s t h e r e o r t h e c o m p a n y d e t a i ls
w e r e t h e r e t h e y w o u l d s e e t h a t t h e r e is f u n d s g o in g t o th o s e p r e m is e s

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a n d i t m i g h t b e c o m e a s e c u r i ty r i s k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I a m n o t s u r e if I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t . I f y o u p u t t h e
number – the code if there was no company stamp then I would
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o m e a n th a t y o u w a n t t o k n o w w h ic h c l i e n t th is s li p
belongs to. But you say even if there was a company stamp you would
put the code?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Always the code.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y t h e c o d e r e p r e s e n t e d a c li e n t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A c e r t a in c li e n t y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o d e w a s fo r y o u r o w n p u r p o s e s o n l y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Fo r m y p u r p o s e s a n d th e d r i v e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w o u l d th e c li e n t k n o w t h e c o d e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o m e o f th e c l ie n ts w o u ld k n o w t h e ir c o d e s
yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d y o u s a i d i t r e p r e s e n t e d th a t t h e r e w a s

m o n e y g iv e n t o th e m ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It ju s t r e p r e s e n ts t h e ir c o d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c r e a t e d th e c o d e , y o u r c l o s e d c o r p o r a ti o n n o t t h e
c li e n t ?
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u u s e d t h e c o d e w h e th e r y o u – t h e n a m e
o f t h e c o m p a n y w a s th e r e i n th e d o c u m e n t o r w a s n o t t h e r e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: We always used the codes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t s o m e b o d y fr o m o u ts i d e w h o d i d n o t k n o w

w h a t th e c o d e r e p r e s e n t e d w o u l d n o t b e a b le t o m a k e u s e o f i t?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: They would not know where to go and look
for the company yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y m a y b e i t i s n o t i m p o r ta n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir i t a c t u a ll y it .

W i t h r e s p e c t s o if I m a y

ju s t f o l lo w u p t h e r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o s a y t h a t y o u n e e d e d to u s e
a c o d e b e c a u s e o f c o n c e r n s a b o u t s e c u r i ty r e la t e d t o w h e r e t h e m o n i e s
w e r e b e i n g d e l iv e r e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e i t c o u l d n o t b e t h e i d e n t i ty o f t h e

c li e n t b e c a u s e t h e c l ie n t ’s i d e n t it y is h e r e .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e c li e n t s i g n s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I m e a n a n y o n e w h o p ic k s t h i s u p k n o w s th a t

R 5 m i ll io n h a s b e e n d e li v e r e d to M r G M a r k id e s , c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r a ff i d a v i t t h e c o d e
20

is t o a n o n y m is e th e d e li v e r y a d d r e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t ? A n d c a n I b e c le a r …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : C a n I ju s t a d d i n a l s o w h e n y o u a r e t a l k i n g
o n a r a d i o w e w o u ld g iv e t h e c o d e o u t a g a in s o t h a t p e o p l e d o n o t
k n o w.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e w o u ld b e s p e a k i n g o v e r t h e r a d i o ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No names.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h e a c t u a l l o c a t io n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a d d r e s s w h e r e i t w a s g o i n g ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

S o l e t u s j u s t m o v e in t o t h e w o r ld o f c a s h i n

tr a n s i t . Yo u h a v e y o u r p e o p l e i n th e a r m o u r e d v e h i c l e s a n d y o u s a y t h e
R 1 5 m il li o n i t h a s t o g o t o 1 0 1 0 a n d t h e n t h e y w o u ld k n o w w h a t t h a t
means?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o t o y o u r c h e c k lis t w h ic h i s a t p a g e
2 9 c a n I a s s u m e 1 0 1 0 is a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e a d d r e s s th a t y o u t a k e
down.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h t h e c h e c k l is t w h ic h is 2 3 W h i ta k e r s W a y.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u r d r iv e r s w o u ld k n o w th is is a 1 0 1 0

d e li v e r y a n d t h e y w o u l d k n o w t o t a k e i t to 2 3 W h i t a k e r s W a y b e c a u s e i t
is a d e li v e r y fo r M r G M a r k i d e s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t a fa ir s u m m a r y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I th i n k th a t m i g h t b e h e l p f u l .

B u t w h y d id y o u I

m e a n a c o d e i s m e a n t to c o n c e a l s o m e t h i n g fr o m s o m e b o d y. N o w t h e
p u r p o s e o f th e c o d e w a s t o id e n ti fy t h e c li e n t a n d t h e a d d r e s s w h e r e
c a s h h a d to b e d e l iv e r e d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Now if anybody who had – I would have thought that
w h e r e y o u h a v e t h e h e a r d – a d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s t h e c o d e s h o u ld n o t
a ls o h a v e t h e n a m e o f th e c l ie n t a n d t h e a d d r e s s , th e t w o s h o u ld n o t b e
f o u n d t o g e t h e r a n d t h a t w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n is t h a t …
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Can I…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r – y o u r …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : C a n I m a y b e e x p l a in …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u d o t h a t.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e d e l iv e r y s li p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t li s te n . N o j u s t li s t e n . I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t
y o u r d r iv e r s w o u l d h a v e a d o c u m e n t th a t g iv e s th e m t h e n a m e s o f
c li e n t s a n d th e a d d r e s s e s s e p a r a te fr o m t h e c o d e a n d t h a t e i t h e r t h e y –
if t h e y d i d n o t k n o w t h e c o d e t o w h ic h a d d r e s s o r c li e n t i t r e la t e d t o
they would have a document somewhere where they could go and check

20

s o fr o m y o u r p o i n t o f y o u y o u j u s t s a y I n e e d y o u to m a k e a d e l iv e r y t o
1 0 1 0 . Th e n i f t h e y k n o w w h a t 1 0 1 0 r e p r e s e n t e d o r w h ic h c li e n t i t
r e p r e s e n t e d a n d t h e a d d r e s s t h e n t h e y d o n o t h a v e t o c h e c k . Th e y s a y
o k a y w e w i ll p ic k t h e c a s h a n d w e d e l iv e r i t t o 1 0 1 0 .

I f th e y d id n o t

k n o w t h e n th e y h a v e a d o c u m e n t w h e r e t h e y c o u ld g o a n d c h e c k th a t ,
t h a t is w h a t I w o u l d e x p e c t b u t I s e e h e r e y o u h a v e g o t t h e a d d r e s s , t h e

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n a m e o f t h e c li e n t a n d t h e a d d r e s s o f t h e c li e n t – i s th e a d d r e s s t h e r e
o r n o y o u d o n o t h a v e t h e a d d r e s s b u t y o u h a v e g o t th e n a m e o f th e
c li e n t , y o u h a v e g o t t h e c e ll n u m b e r o f t h e c li e n t a n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t
t h e c o d e a n d o f c o u r s e y o u h a v e g o t t h e a m o u n ts .

Ye s y o u c a n n o w

explain?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o o n m y d e l iv e r y s li p s m y d r i v e r s w r i t e th is
o u t a n d I w il l l e t th e m k n o w t h e y n e e d t o t a k e a c e r ta i n a m o u n t to 1 0 1 0
a n d s o t h e y w o u ld w r i t e t h e s li p o u t b e fo r e h a n d a n d t h e n w h e n t h e y
g e t t o t h e c li e n t t h e c li e n t j u s t s i g n s f o r i t . S o y e s s o m e c li e n t s m i g h t
10

w r i t e t h e ir n a m e s o u t lik e t h is o n e a n d s o m e m i g h t j u s t l ik e s ig n f o r i t .
B u t th is c o d e w a s w r i t te n b y o u r d r i v e r s s o t h a t t h e y c a n id e n ti fy w h e n
t h e y d o t h e d e liv e r y t h a t is g o in g t o t h a t c e r t a i n c li e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o j a I d i d n o t w r i te o u t t h is s l ip s t h is w a s
w r i t t e n o u t b y m y d r iv e r s a n d t h a t is h o w t h e y w o u l d w r i t e i t o u t t o k n o w
w h a t to d o w i th – w i th t h e f u n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vi lj o e n t h e r e a r e s o m e o t h e r d e li v e r y s li p s
t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d a s a n a n n e x u r e t o y o u r a ff id a v i t t o t h e F S B y o u w il l

20

fi n d t h o s e c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e 5 4 , 5 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a p p e n e d t o M s Vi lj o e n ’s b u n d l e h a s h a p p e n e d
t o mi n e . S o b u t f o r n o w I c a n – I c a n c o n t i n u e . M a y b e d u r i n g t h e l u n c h
break.

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l g iv e y o u t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n s w o p j a .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I h a v e t o s a y C h a ir m i n e is h o ld in g o n t ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s C h a ir w e w i ll g iv e y o u a l e v e r a r c h
w h ic h m a y b e p r e fe r a b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k – j a – i t s h o u l d b e a l e v e r a r c h fi le j a . O k a y
a lr i g h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e ju s t g o t o p a g e 5 4 t h o s e a s I h a v e i t fr o m
10

y o u r F S B a ff id a v i t a r e s o m e o th e r d e li v e r y s li p s r e l a t e d t o th e p a r t ic u l a r
in v e s t i g a t io n th a t th e y w e r e c o n d u c t i n g , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e c o p i e s h e r e C h a ir a t p a g e 5 4 a r e v e r y b a d .
Yo u c a n b a r e l y m a k e o u t w h a t is s a i d t h e r e .

S o w e c o n ta c t e d M s

Vi lj o e n a b o u t i t a n d s h e h a s k i n d ly m a d e a v a i l a b l e to u s t h e o r i g i n a l s o f
t h o s e d e liv e r y s li p s w h ic h I h a v e i n m y h a n d a t th e m o m e n t .
a p p r e c ia t e t h a t b e in g p r o v i d e d t o u s .

I do

W h a t I j u s t n o te h e r e is t h e s e

s li p s a r e s li g h tl y d i ff e r e n t t o th e p r e v io u s o n e s .

I n fa ir n e s s t o y o u

t h e r e is a w h o le w a s s o I a m j u s t g o i n g to s u g g e s t t h a t w e h a n d a f e w
20

t o M s Vi l jo e n a n d a f e w t o y o u r s e lf C h a ir s o w e c a n a l l b e lo o k in g a t a
s i m il a r ty p e . I t is ju s t a b o u t h o w th e s e d e l iv e r y s li p s c h a n g e o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It i s ju s t a b o u t h o w t h e s e d e liv e r y s li p s c h a n g e
o v e r ti m e i f I m a y. W e w i ll t h e n m a k e c o p ie s o f t h e s e f o r t h e p u r p o s e s
o f th e r e c o r d C h a i r s o t h a t th e y – w e c a n h a v e th e b e t te r c o p i e s i n th e

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bundle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e o n l y p o i n t o f d is t in c ti o n i t s e e m s t o m e Ms
Vi lj o e n a n d I w o u l d b e i n te r e s t e d in y o u r c o m m e n t o n i t is i f w e g o b a c k
t o t h e o n e s a t p a g e 2 4 ju s t fo r c o m p a r is o n p u r p o s e s y o u w il l s e e u n d e r
d e li v e r y th e r e y o u s e e m t o h a v e a s ta m p e d n u m b e r u n d e r t h e li n e D e l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n u n d e r t h e s e c ti o n f o r c o m p a n y s t a m p
is w r i tt e n i n h a n d 1 0 1 0 o n b o t h o f t h e d e l iv e r y s l i p s t h a t a p p e a r o n
10

p a g e 2 4 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I f y o u l o o k a t t h e o r ig in a ls th a t w e h a v e

c ir c u l a t e d t h e r e is n o t h i n g u n d e r c o m p a n y s t a m p , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t u n d e r D e l l is w r it t e n 1 0 1 0 ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I s t h e r e a n y s i g n i fic a n c e t o a t t a c h t o th a t

change?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

N o y o u w i ll h a v e c o n t a c t M i n u t e M a n a n d

a s k t h e m w h y t h e y c h a n g e d i t . B e c a u s e th e s e b o o k s w e r e o r d e r e d fr o m
M i n u t e M a n a n d i f y o u lo o k o n th e o r ig i n a l s th e r e is a s t a m p e d n u m b e r
r ig h t n e x t t o s e a l n u m b e r in r e d . S o I c a n a s s u m e m a y b e th e y c h a n g e d
t h e w a y th a t t h e y p r i n t e d t h e b o o k s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I understand thank you. That is helpful. And

c a n I j u s t a s k t h e s e d e l iv e r y s l ip s w h ic h y o u s ti ll h a v e t h e o r i g i n a ls o f

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t h e s e d i d n o t fo r m p a r t o f w h a t w e n t t o t h e l iq u id a t o r s , d i d t h e y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y d o h a v e c o p i e s o f t h is b u t m y la w y e r
k e p t t h e o r i g i n a ls j a . B u t t h e y d o h a v e c o p ie s o f th e s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u m a d e c o p i e s o f s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s
y o u h a n d e d to t h e li q u i d a to r s a n d r e t a in e d t h e o r i g i n a ls b u t i n o t h e r
c a s e s y o u d i d n o t r e t a i n th e o r i g in a l s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t g u id e d t h a t c h o ic e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

B e c a u s e t h e y w e r e b u s y i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h is

m y l a w y e r k e p t t h is o n f il e fo r u s in c a s e w e n e e d e d t h e o r i g i n a ls .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u w e r e h a p p y t o h a n d o v e r a ll th e r e s t i n
t h e ir o r i g i n a l f o r m ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r m ic r o p h o n e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e r e t u r n t h e n t o t h i s p r o c e s s w h ic h w e a r e
a b o u t t o c o m p le t e it i s b a c k a t p a g e 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . Yo u w il l s e e i f
y o u p ic k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 .4 . 11 y o u t a lk a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n s a f t e r
t h e d e li v e r y s li p h a s b e e n s ig n e d , c a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t?

20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s i t w i ll b e r e tu r n e d t o m e a n d th e n I w il l
m a k e s u r e t h a t e v e r y t h i n g w a s d e li v e r e d a n d I w o u l d t h e n n o r m a lly fi le
it .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e n i n t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h u n d e r t h a t

s e c t io n o f t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u ta lk a b o u t h o w y o u w o u l d r e c o n c i l e a l l o f
t h is a t t h e e n d o f th e m o n th , h o w w o u ld t h a t w o r k ?

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M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w o u ld – I h a d a b o o k w h e r e I w r o t e a l l t h e
d e li v e r i e s i n .

I w o u l d t a k e t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n t s a n d I w o u ld ta k e th e

s li p s t h e n I w o u l d d o a r e c o n c i li a ti o n f o r e v e r y c li e n t s o t h a t th e y c a n
g e t a t r a n s a c t io n s h e e t a n d a n in v o ic e a t t h e e n d o f t h e m o n t h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And if we go to page 26 I understand that to

o n e e x a m p l e o f t h e ty p e o f r e c o n c i li a ti o n y o u w o u l d d o .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w e s e e t h e r e i s a t v a r i o u s d a t e s o v e r
t h e m o n t h o f M a y 2 0 1 5 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w o u l d h a v e a n a m o u n t d e p o s i t e d , a n

a m o u n t d e liv e r e d , a s e r v ic e f e e , e x c l u d i n g a n d i n c l u d i n g , w h a t d o e s
that mean?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ex c l u d i n g VAT, i n c lu d in g VAT.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n w h a t d o e s t h a t la s t c o lu m n r e a d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Including and for some reason I do not

k n o w w h y I p u t th e c o l u m n i n t h e r e b u t I n e v e r u s e d i t b u t i t is t h e r e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o w h a t y o u t o o k o u t o f t h e p r o c e e d s is

r e fl e c t e d a s a m o u n t s i n c lu d i n g a n d e x c l u d i n g VAT i n t h e t h i r d a n d
20

f o u r t h c o l u m n s , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u w o u l d th a t o n a m o n th ly b a s i s a s I
u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff i d a v i ts ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t b e fo r e w e g e t i n t o t h e d e t a i l o f th e t h r e e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t a r e p e r ti n e n t fo r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n
h a s e m b a r k e d u p o n c a n I j u s t c h e c k in r e la ti o n to t h e d e l iv e r y s li p s t o
M r M a r k i d e s t h a t a r e t h e s u b je c t m a t te r I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o
b e y o u d i d n o t – y o u d o n o t h a v e t h o s e d e l iv e r y s li p s , w h y w a s th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e ju s t h a d a r o b b e r y o r a t t e m p t e d r o b b e r y
– I s h o u ld s a y.

O n e o f m y m e n w a s k i ll e d .

Th e o t h e r o n e w a s i n

h o s p i ta l . H e h a d s e v e n r ic o c h e t e d b u ll e t s i n h is l e g a n d o u r v e h ic l e t h e o n e v e h ic l e w a s w r i t t e n o ff a n d I c a n o n ly s p e c u la t e t h a t t h e b o o k s
w e r e i n t h a t v e h ic le w h e n it w e n t i n fo r r e c o v e r y. T h a t is t h e o n ly th i n g
10

I c a n t h i n k o f w h y w e w o u l d n o t h a v e h a d t h e s e s l ip s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Right

but

you

s t il l

managed

to

do

a

r e c o n c i li a ti o n I a s s u m e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d i d y o u r e l y o n t h e n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : M y b a n k s t a te m e n t a n d a g a i n th e b o o k t h a t
I wrote in.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n li k e to m o v e a t p a g e 8
o f t h e a ff i d a v i t to t h e s e c ti o n b e g i n n i n g p a r a g r a p h 6 b e c a u s e t h is is
where
20

you

s ta r t

to

deal

with

your

business

r e l a ti o n s h i p

w i th

M r M a r k id e s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e c a n p ic k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 6 . 2 y o u
say:
“ A l l o f th e i n q u ir ie s … ”
W h a t a r e th o s e i n q u ir i e s ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e h a d t h e i n q u ir y w i t h t h e F S B . T h e n t h e
S M E li q u i d a to r s a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h is i n q u ir y w i t h th e H a w k s .
E v e r y th i n g w e h a v e – w e h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i th .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u s a y :
“ A l l o f t h e i n q u ir i e s h a v e r e l a t e d t o tr a n s a c ti o n s
c a r r i e d o u t f o r o n e p e r s o n n a m e ly G e o r g e M a r k i d e s
w h o w a s a n e x is ti n g c li e n t a n d w h o w a s a s o l e
proprietor trading under one of two business names
being Dedrego or ITH.”
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C a n I j u s t g e t c la r it y ?

W h o w a s y o u r c li e n t –

Dedrego or …?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : G e o r g e w a s m y c li e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G e o r g e t h e - t h e p e r s o n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

G e o r g e t h e p e r s o n w a s y o u r c l ie n t a n d w h e n

y o u s a y th e r e th a t i t tr a d e d u n d e r o n e o f t w o b u s i n e s s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is Mr – Is it M a r k i d e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : M a r k i d e s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e c o r r e c t p r o n u n c i a ti o n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o th e c l i e n t w a s M a r k i d e s .

Let me say in

f a ir n e s s to y o u t h a t i s c o n s is te n t w i th t h e c h e c k lis t b e c a u s e i t is
G e o r g e M a r k i d e s w h o i s th e c li e n t . I t i s h i s I D n u m b e r. I t is h i s i n c o m e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t a x n u m b e r a n d i t is th e a d d r e s s t h a t y o u v e tt e d f o r h i m . C o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u s a y :
“ H e w a s a s o l e p r o p r ie t o r t r a d in g u n d e r o n e o f t w o
b u s i n e s s n a m e s b e in g D e d r e g o o r I T H . ”
Do you see that?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I j u s t w o u l d li k e t o g o t o y o u r F S B a ffi d a v i t - i f
we may - at page 44.
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : 4 4 . O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 0 .2 o n t h a t p a g e y o u
s t a te t h e r e :
“ I n e a c h o f th e tr a n s a c t io n s in q u e s t i o n I w a s
c o n ta c t e d t e l e p h o n i c a ll y b y a n i n d iv i d u a l b y t h e
n a m e o f G e o r g e M a r k id e s w h o s e b u s i n e s s is k n o w n
t o m e o n ly a s I T H a n d w h ic h t o t h e b e s t o f m y
k n o w l e d g e is a s o l e p r o p r i e t o r s h i p c o n d u c t e d b y
him.”
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s I T H t h e o n ly tr a d i n g n a m e th a t y o u a r e a w a r e
o f o r is i t b o t h D e d r e g o a n d I TH ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s th e y w e r e k n o w n a s
Dedrego.

I t w a s R u s tic S t o n e a n d t h e n w h e n t h e y m o v e d o v e r t h e y

s t a y e d D e d r e g o a n d t h e n e v e n tu a l ly I s a w i n th e ir s i g n a t u r e t h e y w o u ld
r e fe r t o th e m s e lv e s a s I T H .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t s ig n a tu r e w a s t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o i f L is a e m a il e d m e th e n in h e r s i g n a t u r e
it w o u l d b e a n d if I p h o n e d t h e y w o u ld a n s w e r I TH . S o i t – i n m y m i n d I
thought maybe a name change or what not but …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t th e n i t i s n o t c o r r e c t t o s a y a t p a r a g r a p h

5 .2 0 .2 t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s is k n o w n t o y o u o n ly a s I T H .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o w h e n t h e F S B d id t h is I w e n t t o t h i n k

a b o u t i t a f t e r w a r d s a n d I s t a r t e d p u t t in g m o r e t h i n g s t o g e th e r a n d :
“They are known to me…”
10

T h a t is w h y s t a t e m e n t t o y o u s a y s :
“They are known to me as Dedrego and IT H.”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t th e ti m e t h a t y o u d id t h e F S B a ff i d a v i t
t h e y w e r e k n o w n t o y o u o n l y a s I T H . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Well again they were known as Dedrego but
I e v e n t u a ll y c a ll e d t h e m I T H .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i t is n o t c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t th e y w e r e o n ly

k n o w n t o y o u a s I TH ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It is n o t c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u ; b u t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u – I a m s o r r y.

Once you knew about ITH did

y o u th in k th a t w a s a r e p la c e m e n t – r e p l a c e m e n t o f t h e o t h e r n a m e , a
change of name or did you understand that both names referred to the
same business?
M S K A L A N D R AV I L J O E N : B o t h n a m e s r e f e r r e d t o th e s a m e b u s i n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id - d i d y o u m a k e i n q u ir ie s t o c o n f ir m t h a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o I d i d n o t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u m i g h t h a v e n o w b e e n d e a li n g w i t h a

d i ff e r e n t b u s i n e s s . M ig h t y o u n o t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S a m e p e r s o n – m ig h t h a v e b e e n d i ffe r e n t

b u s i n e s s y e s . I d id h o w e v e r a s k w h o I c a n i n v o ic e a n d t h e y s a id t o m e
I m u s t i n v o ic e D e d r e g o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u m u s t c o n ti n u e to in v o ic e D e d r e g o ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e s p i t e t h e f a c t t h a t y o u n o t ic e a n a m e c h a n g e
o r s o m e o t h e r d i ff e r e n t b u s i n e s s th a t y o u d e a li n g w i th ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w e r e s a t i s f ie d t o c o n t in u e to in v o ic e i n
t h e o l d n a m e a l b e i t t h a t t h a t is n o t w h a t is a p p e a r i n g o n t h e
c o m m u n ic a ti o n s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I t w a s ju s t li k e I s a y t h e e m a il a d d r e s s . S o
it m i g h t h a v e b e e n h e r p e r s o n a l e m a i l a d d r e s s I d o n o t k n o w b u t t h e y
g o t t o k n o w o r I g o t t o k n o w th e m a ls o a s I T H a n d n o t j u s t D e d r e g o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : b u t y o u m a d e n o i n q u ir i e s a s to t h e n a tu r e …

20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f t h a t b u s i n e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o . T h e p e r s o n s ta y e d th e s a m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t i s w h y I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e t h e
c li e n t w a s M r M a r k id e s . C o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I f w e t h e n g o o v e r t o p a g e 9 o f t h e
a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s h e r a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s io n ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e C o m m i s s io n – i n d e e d C h a ir. A p o l o g i e s w e
– t h e r e a r e th r e e . S o i t is u s e f u l to b e a b i t m o r e s p e c i fi c .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e a ffi d a v it t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h i c h y o u
w i ll fi n d i n E X H I B I T D D 9 a t p a g e 9 . Yo u b e g in a t p a r a g r a p h 6 .3 t h e r e
t a lk in g a b o u t y o u r i n t e r a c ti o n s w i th M r M a r k i d e s a n d t h e p r o c e s s e s y o u
10

f o ll o w e d fo r ta k i n g h i m o n a s a c li e n t a n d v e t ti n g h i m . T h a t w e d o n e e d
t o s p e n d a b i t o f t i m e o n b e c a u s e i t i s M r M a r k id e s ’ tr a n s a c ti o n s o r
p u r p o r t e d tr a n s a c t i o n s i n t h e a m o u n t o f R 9 mi ll io n t h a t th is C o m m i s s io n
is c o n c e r n e d w i t h .

S o i f I m a y y o u s ta r t a t p a r a g r a p h 6 . 3 . 1 a n d y o u

say:
“ W h e n M a r k i d e s – M r M a r k i d e s – i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e
w i s h e d f o r h i s b u s in e s s w h ic h I w a s l e d t o b e l i e v e
w a s a tr a d in g h o u s e b u y in g g o o d s i n S o u th A f r ic a
a n d e x p o r t i n g t h e m t o t h e r e s t o f th e A fr ic a t o b e
m o v e d fr o m A F M S t o R u s t ic S t o n e o u r c h e c k l is t w a s
20

c o m p le t e d a n d I r e q u e s te d t h a t h e f o r w a r d s a c o p y
o f h is ID t o u s . ”
Do you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

What does it mean when you say there I was

le a d t o b e li e v e th a t h is b u s i n e s s w a s a tr a d i n g h o u s e ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W e l l w i t h a l l t h e i n q u ir i e s w e h a v e h a d s o

f a r c l e a r l y t h a t is n o t t h e c a s e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o c e r t a i n ly b u t w h o le d y o u t o b e li e v e th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h e y d id . G e o r g e d id .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o is t h a t w h e n y o u w e r e m a k in g i n q u ir ie s a s t o
h is b u s in e s s … ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s I a s k e d h i m w h a t d o y o u g u y s d o a s a
b u s i n e s s a n d I w a s t h e n le d to b e li e v e t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w a s h i s b u s in e s s r e le v a n t i f h e w a s c l i e n t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I was just asking general questions. What
do you guys do?

Oh, how long have you been doing it?

Normal

c o n v e r s a ti o n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u w e r e n o t t h e n v e t ti n g t h e b u s in e s s ?

Yo u w e r e v e t ti n g M r M a r k i d e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s w a s ju s t p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is r i g h t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o e s h e d o i n t h e w e e k a n d …
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is r i g h t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H e to ld y o u h e h a d a tr a d i n g h o u s e b u y in g

g o o d s i n S o u t h A f r ic a a n d e x p o r ti n g t h e m b u t i t w a s n o t o f c o n c e r n t o
y o u t o v e t t h a t b u s in e s s . W a s i t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

C a n I a s k a q u e s t io n ?

that?

Page 92 of 228

How would I vet

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n f o r tu n a t e ly …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : S o r r y b u t h o w w o u ld I v e t t h a t?
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – y o u m u s t a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n s n o t a s k th e

q u e s t io n s .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u k n o w y o u k n o w i f y o u d o n o t k n o w y o u d o k n o w.
O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k t h e a n s w e r is n o .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s , n o is t h e a n s w e r a n d y e s t o C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d i d n o t v e t t h e b u s i n e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o d o w n y o u s a y I a ls o c o n f ir m t h is is
at 6.3.2 that:
“ I s e n t A M F S ’ s t a n d a r d te r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s t o
him.”
M s Vil jo e n y o u m e n ti o n t h a t e a r l ie r in y o u r te s ti m o n y. I n fa ir n e s s j u s t

20

e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t h a p p e n e d i n r e l a ti o n to M r M a r k id e s a n d t h o s e t e r m s
a n d c o n d i ti o n s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: We never received it back.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u c o n t in u e d t o e n g a g e i n b u s i n e s s w it h

him?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t 6 .3 . 3 y o u s a y t h a t :
“ A s I h a d n e v e r b e e n t o M a r k i d e s ’ p r e m is e s d u r i n g
m y t i m e a t R u s ti c S t o n e I c o n d u c te d a s i t e v is i t t o
2 3 W h i tt a k e r s W a y B e d fo r d v i e w a n d c o n fir m t h a t
the business was conducted there.”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Is th a t t h e o n ly p r e m is e s t h a t y o u v is i te d i n

r e l a ti o n t o M r M a r k id e s ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is th e o n l y p r e m is e s y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t b u s in e s s d id y o u s e e b e e n c o n d u c t e d
there?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W e l l i t w a s o ffi c e s .

So they had the

r e c e p t i o n d e s k a n d i t w a s a n o r m a l o ffi c e , b o a r d r o o m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u s u r e a b o u t th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s I a m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h a t a d d r e s s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: At 23 – yes I am.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w th a t y o u r d e li v e r i e s w e r e n o t to 2 3
20

W h i t t a k e r s W a y a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r d e l iv e r y – y o u r in v o ic e s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

They had two addresses.

I d o k n o w t h a t.

T h e y h a d tw o p r e m is e s b u t I w e n t t o W h it t a k e r. I v e t t e d W h it t a k e r a n d
t h a t i s w h e r e w e d i d t h e d e l iv e r ie s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t y o u r in v o ic e s i n d ic a te t h a t t h e d e liv e r ie s

were to another address?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A s p e r t h e ir r e q u e s t . T h e y …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o – s o le t m e j u s t g e t c l e a r h e r e . Yo u – y o u
k n o w t h a t t h e y h a v e tw o p r e m is e s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u o n ly v e t o n e o f t h e m ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : B e c a u s e th e d e l iv e r y w o u ld h a v e o n ly g o n e
t o t h e o n e p r e m is e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t n o n e o f y o u r i n v o ic e s r e f le c t t h e 2 3

W h i t t a k e r ’s W a y a d d r e s s a s t h e d e l iv e r y ?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e n I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u r i n v o ic e

w o u ld r e f le c t a d e liv e r y a d d r e s s w h ic h i s n o t t h e a d d r e s s to w h i c h th e
d e li v e r i e s w e r e m a d e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: As – as I said they have the two addresses
a n d t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g o u t o f W h i t ta k e r. I t w a s t h e ir o ffi c e s w h e r e t h e y
w o u ld a l w a y s b e p r e s e n t f o r t h e y d e l iv e r y a n d th a t i s w h e r e w e w e n t.
T h a t is w h e r e G e o r g e w a s a n d t h a t is w h e r e w e w e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

No but the – the point that is being made is the

in v o ic e s r e fl e c t a d i ff e r e n t a d d r e s s n o t th e W h i t t a k e r a d d r e s s .
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: That was the address that they asked me to
p u t o n t h e i n v o ic i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u d i d n o t v e t t h a t a d d r e s s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I t w a s a ls o t h e s a m e a d d r e s s t h a t c a m e

fr o m R u s tic S t o n e . S o it a l l s t a y e d t h e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . T h e q u e s ti o n is d i d y o u v e t t h a t a d d r e s s ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id n o t g o t o t h a t a d d r e s s n o .
CHAIRPERSON: And why not?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : B e c a u s e a s I s a i d m y d e li v e r i e s w e r e t o g o
t o B e d f o r d v i e w a s p e r th e ir r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d e a r li e r o n t h a t w h e n y o u r d r iv e r h a d

d e li v e r e d th e c a s h th e y w o u l d c o m e b a c k a n d g iv e y o u – I th i n k – a
note?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h ic h w o u l d b e p r o o f t h a t d e l iv e r y o f t h e c a s h h a d

taken place. Is that right?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t n o t e – w h a t e v e r y o u c a ll it – w o u l d h a v e t h e
a d d r e s s a t w h ic h t h e d e liv e r y t o o k p l a c e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o D e d r e g o ’s d e l iv e r i e s a l w a y s w e n t t o

W h i t t a k e r b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e G e o r g e – t h a t i s w h e r e h e s a t e v e r y
d a y. T h a t is w h e r e h i s o ff ic e s w e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u – y o u a r e s a y i n g – a r e y o u s a y i n g th a t t h e r e
w e r e n o d e li v e r i e s m a d e b y y o u r d r iv e r s t o Mr M a r k i d e s a t a n y a d d r e s s
o th e r t h a n th e W h i t t a k e r a d d r e s s ?
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e W h i tt a k e r a d d r e s s

yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u w e r e n o t d o i n g t h e d e li v e r i e s y o u r s e l f .

Were you?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e f o r e y o u c a n n o t k n o w th a t f o r s u r e – f o r s u r e .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
Can you?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

No, no.

It w o u ld h a v e g o n e to w h e r e

George is.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . I f y o u w e n t – i f y o u d i d n o t d o t h e d e l iv e r i e s
o r y o u w e r e n o t t h e r e w h e n t h e d e l iv e r ie s w e r e e ff e c t e d a t t h e a d d r e s s
you cannot know that.

Yo u w o u l d h a v e t o d e p e n d o n r e p o r ts o n

s o m e b o d y. Is it n o t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o I w o u l d te ll t h e m w h e r e t o g o s o t h e y

w o u ld g o t h e r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e y c o u l d d e c i d e n o t t o l is t e n t o y o u .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

No, no, no.

N o , n o t h e y w e n t w h e r e th e y

w e r e s u p p o s e d to g o .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o , n o y o u d o n o t k n o w f o r s u r e w h e th e r t h e y

w e n t th e r e i f y o u w e r e n o t th e r e w h e n t h e y d e liv e r e d .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I was not there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e r e f o r e y o u c a n n o t k n o w. A l l y o u c a n s a y is my
d r i v e r s t o l d m e t h a t t h e y w e n t t o th e a d d r e s s t o w h i c h I s a i d t h e y
s h o u l d g o a n d I tr u s t e d t h a t t h e y w e r e te ll i n g t h e tr u t h .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e t h e r o r n o t i n f a c t t h e y w e r e te ll in g t h e tr u th I
d o n o t k n o w.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : W e c a n s a y i t l ik e t h a t y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a s to b e li k e t h a t .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ms H o f m e y r.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o to y o u r i n v o ic e s f o r th is c li e n t.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Page.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l f in d o n e o f th e m a t p a g e 2 5 . T h is is a n
in v o ic e a r is i n g f r o m y o u r b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h Mr M a r k i d e s .

Is

that correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A m I c o r r e c t i n s a y in g t h a t t h is p a g e m a k e s n o
r e fe r e n c e to M r M a r k i d e s a n y o n e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t r e f e r s to w h a t s e e m s to b e a n e n t i ty c a ll e d

D e d r e g o . C o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t t h a t a b u s i n e s s t h a t y o u e v e r v e t t e d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

T h a t is c o r r e c t b u t G e o r g e is D e d r e g o

though.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t M s Vil j o e n I s p e n t s o m e t i m e b e i n g v e r y
c le a r a b o u t w h o y o u r c l ie n t w a s …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d to v e t …
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Alright, ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And that is Mr Markides as I have your

evidence.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H i s i n c o m e t a x n u m b e r, h i s c e l l p h o n e , h i s

address?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t a n d t h is i n v o i c e in d i c a t e s t h a t y o u a r e

d e li v e r i n g f o r D e d r e g o t o 5 6 W a t t S t r e e t.

C o r r e c t?

T h e r e is n o

r e fe r e n c e to t h i s o n 2 3 W h i t t a k e r ’s W a y. C o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h y w o u ld y o u a ll o w i n v o i c e s t o b e p r e p a r e d

f o r a c u s t o m e r w h o i n c o r r e c tl y r e f le c t e d w h o th e c u s t o m e r w a s a n d
w h e r e th e p r o c e e d s in m i lli o n s o f R a n d s w e r e b e i n g d e l iv e r e d ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : As I s a i d D e d r e g o is a t Wa t t b u t a l s o th e y
10

h a v e g o t p r e m is e s in W h i tt a k e r a n d M r M a r k id e s w a s a l w a y s a t
W h i t t a k e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .

S o w h y d o t h e i n v o i c e s f o r Mr M a r k i d e s

w h o w a s y o u r c l ie n t n o t r e f l e c t t h a t a s t h e d e li v e r y ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : B e c a u s e a s I t h i n k t h a t D e d r e g o is a c t u a ll y
r e g is t e r e d a t th is a d d r e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vil j o e n t h e d i ff i c u l t t h a t i n v o i c e s th a t r e fl e c t
t h e w r o n g f a c ts c r e a te i s t h a t in a s it u a ti o n w h e r e y o u a r e a n
a c c o u n t a b l e in s ti t u t i o n u n d e r F I C A p r e c is e ly w h a t y o u d o t o v e t y o u r
c li e n t s is e x tr e m e ly i m p o r t a n t . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ?
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d p a r t ic u l a r b e c a u s e b u s in e s s e s t h a t m o v e

h a l f a b il li o n R a n d a m o n t h n e e d to b e o n t h e l o o k o u t fo r a m o n g s t o th e r
t h i n g s w h e t h e r t h e y a r e i n v o l v e d i n f a c il i ta t in g m o n e y l a u n d e r in g .
C o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Do you then accept that in a business where

t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p i s w i t h a n a tu r a l p e r s o n a n d a n a d d r e s s o f t h a t n a t u r a l
p e r s o n h a s b e e n v e t te d b u t i n v o i c e s a r e p r e p a r e d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e
tr a d i n g n a m e th r o u g h w h ic h h e is c o n d u c ti n g b u s i n e s s a n d a n o t h e r
d e li v e r y a d d r e s s y o u a r e c r e a t i n g a f a l s e i m p r e s s i o n o f t h e n a t u r e o f
t h e b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I c a n s e e h o w i t c a n – h o w i t c a n l o o k l ik e
that yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f w e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – I a m s o r r y. W h e n y o u r d r iv e r c a m e b a c k fr o m
m a k i n g a d e li v e r y t h e y w o u l d g iv e y o u a d o c u m e n t w h ic h s h o w e d o r
w h ic h w a s s u p p o s e d t o s h o w w h e r e th e d e liv e r y t o o k p l a c e a n d w h o th e
c li e n t w a s . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d i d y o u c a ll t h a t d o c u m e n t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : D e liv e r y n o te s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D e liv e r y n o t e , j a .

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

make sure we are on the same page.

I just wanted to

Would you look – would you

e x a m in e e a c h d e liv e r y n o t e w h e n e a c h d r i v e r c a m e b a c k to s e e w h e t h e r
20

w h a t w a s w r i t t e n th e r e w a s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th y o u r e x p e c t a t i o n i n
t e r m s o f w h e t h e r t h e m o n e y w a s d e liv e r e d to t h e r i g h t c li e n t a n d a t th e
r ig h t a d d r e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : A s w e s a i d e a r li e r t h e a d d r e s s i s n o t o n th e
d e li v e r y s l i p f o r s e c u r i ty p u r p o s e s C h a ir.

S o I w o u ld – I w o u ld c h e c k

t h e a m o u n ts a n d I w o u l d t h e n o f c o u r s e c o n fir m t h a t t h e c li e n t r e c e iv e d

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h e f u n d s b u t t h e a c t u a l a d d r e s s is n o t o n t h e d e l iv e r y n o t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w a s t h e r e a n y t h in g o r h o w d i d y o u a s c e r t a i n
w h e r e t h e d e l iv e r t o o k p l a c e ? I n o t h e r w o r d s w h e t h e r i t t o o k p l a c e a t
t h e c o r r e c t a d d r e s s . H o w d id y o u a s c e r t a i n th a t ? H o w d i d y o u f i n d o u t
that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W e ll i f i t w a s n o t a t t h e a d d r e s s t h e n t h e

c li e n t w o u l d n o t h a v e s ig n e d f o r i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

If – i f i t w a s n o t – i f i t w a s n o t th e r i g h t

a d d r e s s t h e n th e c l i e n t w o u l d n o t h a v e s i g n e d f o r i t a n d w e o n l y w e n t
t o w h e r e t h e c l ie n t s a i d t h is is o u r a d d r e s s . T h i s is w h e r e y o u p l e a s e
m u s t d e l iv e r t h e f u n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e c li e n t c o u l d h a v e h a d – c o u l d h a v e g iv e n y o u
t h e W h i t ta k e r a d d r e s s b u t c o u l d h a v e a r r a n g e d – c o u l d h e n o t – th a t
t h e d e li v e r y b e e ffe c te d a t a d i ff e r e n t a d d r e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e ir a d d r e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) o w n p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir a d d r e s s …

20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a d i ff e r e n t a d d r e s s f r o m t h e o n e r e c o r d e d i n y o u r
books.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: So it could have gone to – to Watt Street.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Is th a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g C h a ir ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

I a m s a y i n g i n t e r ms o f th e a d d r e s s o f - f o r

e x a m p l e - M r M a r k i d e s y o u r r e c o r d s r e f le c t e d th a t h is a d d r e s s - a s I
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n – w a s t h e o n e f o r W h i t t a k e r W a y. Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t is t h e o n ly a d d r e s s th a t y o u h a v e i n y o u r – y o u
had in your records for him or was there another address?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I – I h a v e tw o a d d r e s s e s f o r h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d tw o a d d r e s s e s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u r i n s tr u c ti o n t o t h e d r iv e r s w a s i t …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t th e y s h o u l d d e l iv e r a t a n y o n e o f t h e t w o

a d d r e s s e s o r w a s y o u r i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t t h e y s h o u l d d e l iv e r a t a
p a r t ic u l a r a d d r e s s n a m e ly th e W h i t t a k e r a d d r e s s ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I – I h a v e t o s a y I c o u ld h a v e t o l d t h e m t o
g o t o b o t h a d d r e s s e s b u t m y m e m o r y o f m a y b e o u r l a te r d e liv e r i e s w a s
d e f in i te ly w e a l w a y s w e n t t o W h i t ta k e r b u t y e s i n t h e e a r l ie r d a y s th e y
m i g h t h a v e g o n e th e r e b u t a s …
CHAIRPERSON: But …
20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I s a i d m y m e m o r y w i th o u r l a t e r 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 6
is w e n o r m a l ly w e n t t o W h i t t a k e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W a s t h e r e a n y p a r ti c u l a r i m p o r t a n c e a s f a r a s

y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d o f th e a d d r e s s t o w h ic h t h e c a s h w a s d e li v e r e d …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : J u s t w h e r e t h e p e r s o n w o u ld b e t o s i g n f o r
it .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON:

I n o t h e r w o r d s i f – i f c a s h w a s d e li v e r e d i n to a n

a d d r e s s o th e r t h a n t h e o n e t h a t y o u w a n te d t h e m t o d e l iv e r c a s h t o
w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h in g q u i te i m p o r t a n t t o y o u o r w a s th e
p o s i ti o n th a t a s l o n g a s t h e c a s h w a s g iv e n t o t h e c l i e n t it d i d n o t
m a t t e r i n w h ic h a d d r e s s i t w a s d e l iv e r e d ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I t – h o w to e x p l a i n ? A s l o n g a s t h e c l i e n t

w a s t h e r e a t th e a d d r e s s t h a t t h e y s u p p li e d u s w it h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f – i f th e c li e n t w a s a t a n a d d r e s s t h a t h a d n o t b e e n
s u p p li e d t o y o u w e r e y o u r d r iv e r s p e r m i tt e d t o d e li v e r ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o , n o , n o . T h e y h a d to g o t o th e o ffic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s Vil jo e n w h e n y o u w e n t t o
W h i t t a k e r ’s W a y w e r e t h e y o p e r a t in g fr o m a h o u s e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s .

I t lo o k e d l ik e a h o u s e w h i c h th e y

c o n v e r te d i n t o o ff ic e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e W h i t ta k e r ’s W a y is a r e s i d e n ti a l

s tr e e t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s , y e s . T h e y c o n v e r t e d it
a l l i n t o o ffic e s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a t th a t s t a g e y o u r c l ie n t w a s M r M a r k id e s .
C o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So it was relevant to vet the address he gave

you. Correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d a s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e p r e v io u s ly y o u

m a d e n o i n q u ir i e s w h a te v e r a b o u t th e s o u r c e o f t h e f u n d s t h a t
M r M a r k id e s w a s d e p o s i t in g i n t o y o u r a c c o u n t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l g o to …
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I s a i d I - I v e t t e d h i m . I F IC A’ d h i m a n d o f
c o u r s e I c o n fi r m e d w it h h is PA t h a t i t i s t h e ir f u n d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l M s Vil jo e n I F I C A’ d h i m is s o m e th in g t h a t I
a m g o i n g t o h a v e s o m e d i ffi c u l ty w i t h . W h a t – w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ?
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I g o t a l l t h e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n ts fr o m h i m .
S o r r y my b u n d le u n r a v e ll e d a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s f i n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l Ms H o f m e y r d i d t e l l y o u s h e t h o u g h t i t w o u l d

h a p p e n a g a in a n d …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n th e r e is a p r o m is e I t h i n k th a t it w o u ld
n o t b u t I c e r t a i n l y w il l n o t h o l d th a t a g a i n s t M s Vi l jo e n .
CHAIRPERSON: She – she warned you about that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t m o r e c o n v e n ie n t to c h a n g e n o w …
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : L e t u s t w is t th i s n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g iv e h e r t h e – t h e le v e r a r c h f il e n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h i n k w e s h o u ld p o s s i b ly d o t h a t C h a ir j u s t f o r
convenience.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a le t u s d o th a t j a .

Let us do that.

Page 104 of 228

No let us do

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h a t . F o r g e t a b o u t t h a t o n e M s Vil j o e n . Yo u w i ll b e g i v e n a n o th e r o n e .
S o w e w i ll n o t h a v e t h is a g a i n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Vi lj o e n j u s t t o b e c l e a r w e h a v e u s e d

a n o t h e r f il e w e h a d o n h a n d . P l e a s e d o n o t l o o k a t t h e s p i n e b e c a u s e
it r e l a t e s to a n o t h e r w i tn e s s b u t i t i s j u s t f o r c o n v e n ie n c e p u r p o s e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w e w i ll g i v e i t to y o u i n th is fo r m .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I h a v e n o w – I h a v e n o w tw is t e d i t i n t o l it t le
s w ir l ie s . S o I a m th i n k i n g m a y b e i t m i g h t h o l d .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s p u t t h e o t h e r o n e t h e r e i n c a s e .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I – I s a i d I w a n te d to p ic k u p o n y o u r s ta t e m e n t
t h a t y o u F I C A’ d th e c l ie n t b e c a u s e w e w i ll g o to t h e s e c t i o n s h o r t ly b u t
a m o n g s t t h e l e g a l o b l ig a ti o n s y o u h a d a s a n a c c o u n t a b le in s ti t u t i o n w a s
t o e s t a b li s h t h e s o u r c e o f f u n d s o f a n y o f y o u r c l ie n ts a n d I h a v e y o u r
e v i d e n c e t o b e y o u d id n o t d o s o .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

20

E x c e p t f o r c a lli n g th e m a n d c o n f ir m w i t h

them.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vil jo e n c a l li n g th e m a n d c o n f ir m in g w i t h

t h e m t h a t a p a y m e n t h a s b e e n m a d e i s d i ff e r e n t t o e s ta b lis h i n g fr o m
t h e m w h e r e t h e y s o u r c e d th e f u n d s th a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o tr a n s a c t w i t h
y o u o n . D o y o u s e e th a t d i ff e r e n c e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I see yes.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u m a d e n o in q u ir ie s a s to t h e s o u r c e o f
t h e m i ll i o n s o f R a n d s t h a t M r M a r k i d e s w a s a s k i n g y o u t o d e l iv e r in
c a s h ( in t e r v e n e s ) b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s i t c o m e s f r o m

them.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o i s t h e m ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

M r M a r k id e s - h is e n ti ti e s .

I t c o m e s fr o m

h i m – h i s c o m p a n y. It – i t c o m e s fr o m t h e m . H o w d o I e x p l a i n th is ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o , y o u h a v e e x p l a i n e d i t M s Vil jo e n b u t t h e r e
10

is a d i ffic u lt y w i t h t h a t a n s w e r b e c a u s e y o u r o n e r o u s o b li g a t i o n s u n d e r
F I C A r e q u ir e y o u t o k n o w w h e r e f u n d s a r e c o mi n g fr o m w h e n y o u
tr a n s a c t w i th a b u s i n e s s a s a n a c c o u n ta b l e i n s ti t u ti o n . D o y o u a c c e p t
that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o r r y.

I was under the impression or my

i m p r e s s io n w a s t h a t i f i t i s a n e le c t r ic t r a n s fe r t h a t it is t h e b a n k ’s
r e s p o n s i b i li ty to s o u r c e w h e r e th e f u n d s c o m e fr o m w h e r e i f i t w a s c a s h
t h e n i t w a s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o s e e w h e r e t h e f u n d s w e r e c o m i n g f r o m
b u t i f I a m w r o n g i n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e n I d o a p o l o g is e b u t th a t w a s
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
course.

W e w i ll c o m e t o t h e le g a l o b l ig a ti o n s i n d u e

F o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s y o u d id n o t c h e c k f u n d s .

Yo u

u n d e r s t a n d Mr M a r k i d e s w a s y o u r c li e n t a n d y o u d i d n o t v e t h is
businesses. Correct?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i n t e r m s o f t h e a m o u n ts a s s o c ia t e d w i t h

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M r M a r k id e s y o u i n d ic a t e i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t t h e y c o m p r o m is e l e s s
t h a n o n e p e r c e n t o f t h e b u s i n e s s o f A M F S . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h a t is s ti ll m i ll io n s o f R a n d s . Is it n o t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d i d a q u ic k ta ll y o f th e d e li v e r y s li p s t h a t w e r e
r e l e v a n t t o t h e F S B a ff i d a v i t . I t s e e m e d to b e i n t h e o r d e r o f a n e x c e s s
o f 2 0 m il li o n . Is th a t a f a i r c o m p u t a ti o n o n m y p a r t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I – I t h in k i t w a s a b i t m o r e .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o s s ib ly 3 0 .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I am not sure but it was a bit more yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t l e a s t n i n e m i ll io n i n r e l a ti o n t o th e
tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t w e a r e in t e r e s t e d in ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i f w e …
CHAIRPERSON: Just remember to …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h y e s . T h e a n s w e r th e r e w a s y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G i v e a n a n s w e r r a t h e r th a n n o d d in g .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o , n o , n o I s a i d c o r r e c t. M a y b e I d i d n o t

20

s a y it lo u d e n o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON: No, I think you just nodded.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s t h e n p l e a s e m o v e t o y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s

w i t h t h e H a w k s a n d y o u w il l fi n d t h o s e i n th e a ffi d a v i t to t h e

Page 107 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C o m m i s s i o n in E X H I B I T D D 9 a t p a g e 11 .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: DD9?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s t h e f il e th a t y o u a r e i n .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Ja, ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i t i s a t p a g e 11 .

Yo u b e g i n a t p a r a g r a p h

6 .4 . 3 .1 t h e r e a n d a s I r e a d i t y o u s ta t e :
“In

March 2018

I

was

c o n ta c te d

by

a

certain

C a p t a i n M o g o s i w h o s ta t e d th a t s h e w a s fr o m t h e
H a w k s a n d w is h e d t o in t e r v ie w m e a s a w i t n e s s
10

r e l a ti n g to a c a s e in v o lv in g a c o m p a n y c a ll e d
Koreneka.”
Do you see that?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : ( N o a u d ib l e r e p ly ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pl e a s e s a y y e s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s – s o r r y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n e x t p a r a g r a p h y o u s a y :
“ A s I d i d n o t k n o w th is c o m p a n y I a s k e d h e r t o
e x p l a i n a n d i t b e c a m e c l e a r t o m e t h a t t h is h a d
o n c e a g a i n t o d o w i t h M a r k id e s – M r M a r k i d e s . ”

20

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vi lj o e n y o u d i d k n o w t h o u g h in M a r c h 2 0 1 8
a b o u t K o r e n e k a . D id y o u n o t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

A s I s a i d e a r li e r I c o m p le t e l y fo r g o t a b o u t

M r J u d e e l w h e n I m e t h i m i n t h e D e c e m b e r. I – I r e m e m b e r e d w h e n y o u

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
s e n t m e t h i s s ta t e m e n t a w e e k a g o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e ll

when

Mr Judeel

engaged

you

in

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 h a d t h e o th e r i s s u e s a r o u n d Mr M a r k i d e s a r is e n y e t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No not yet.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o y o u h a d a n i n t e r a c ti o n w it h a p r iv a te

in v e s t i g a t o r f o r w h o m y o u p r e p a r e d a n a ff id a v it d e t a il i n g a n d p r o v i d i n g
a l l y o u r r e c o r d s o f y o u r d e li v e r y s l ip s w i th M r M a r k id e s a n d i ts
10

a s s o c i a t i o n w it h K o r e n e k a b u t w h e n y o u w e r e c o n t a c t e d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 8
y o u h a d f o r g o t t e n t h e r e f e r e n c e t o K o r e n e k a . Is t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u g o o n in t h a t – o n t h a t
p a g e t o e x p l a i n t h e e x te n t o f y o u r i n t e r a c ti o n s w it h t h e H a w k s a n d
s t e p s t h a t y o u t o o k i n r e l a ti o n to t h e p a r ti c u la r tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t t h e y
w e r e in t e r e s t e d in . C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t t h o s e w e r e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: What steps I took?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I n …
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

20

I j u s t g a v e t h e m a l l th e d e t a i ls , w e m e t a t

a r e s t a u r a n t a n d w e w e r e n ’t t h e r e l o n g , I o p e n e d m y w a te r a n d I d o n ’ t
e v e n t h in k I f i n is h e d my w a t e r a n d I j u s t e x p l a in e d th e b u s i n e s s , I g a v e
t h e m a l l t h e i n v o i c e s , I t h i n k , a n d s o m e s l ip s a n d t h e y s a i d th e y ’l l
c o n ta c t u s b e c a u s e I m i g h t n e e d t o b e a w i tn e s s b u t i t w a s n ’t a v e r y
lo n g i n t e r a c t io n .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vi l jo e n , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h e r e ’s s o m e th in g t h a t y o u d o b e t w e e n t h e c a l l fr o m c a p t a i n M o g o s i ?
a n d t h e n m e e ti n g u p w i t h h e r a n d h e r c o l le a g u e a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t a t
B e d fo r d v i e w a n d t h a t i n v o l v e s a n i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h M s L i s a Zo g b y is t h a t
correct?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .
W h o is L is a Z o g b y ?
S h e i s G e o r g e M a r k i d e s ’ PA – p e r s o n a l

a s s is t a n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

S o w h a t d id y o u d o i n r e l a ti o n t o h e r ?
W h e n I c o u ld n ’ t f in d o u r d e li v e r y r e c e ip ts I

c o n ta c t e d h e r a n d a s k e d h e r m a y b e f o r h e r c o p y a n d th e n s h e s e n t m e
a b r o w n e n v e l o p e , s h e s a i d i t ’s fi n e s h e ’ ll s e n d p r o o f t h a t th e f u n d s
w e r e d e li v e r e d a n d s h e s e n t m e a b r o w n e n v e l o p e w i t h r e c e i p ts i n
there.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y l e t ’s j u s t g o b a c k i n t h e e v id e n c e , I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u d id n ’ t h a v e c o p i e s o f th e d e liv e r y s li p s y o u r s e lf
b e c a u s e o f t h a t h e is t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
Is th a t y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
Ye s .
And then when you got contacted by

C a p t a i n M o g o s i , y o u t h e n t o o k s t e p s t o tr y a n d g e t t h e c l ie n t ’s c o u n t e r
c o p y o f t h e o t h e r c o p y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n y o u m a d e c o n t a c t w it h M s Z o g b y

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
for that purpose.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
A n d ju s t t e l l u s p r e c i s e ly w h a t h a p p e n e d

then?
MS

KALANDRA

VILJOEN:

She

sent

me

a

brown

e n v e l o p e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Did she send it or did you collect it?
U m j a , m y o l d d r iv e r w e n t t o c o l l e c t i t fr o m

h e r p r e m is e s a n d h e d r o p p e d i t o ff .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d w i th t h o s e s li p s ?
I gave it over to the Hawks.
A t t h a t m e e t in g ?
A t t h a t m e e ti n g y e s .
O k a y I j u s t w a n t t o g o t o t h e q u e s t io n o f

y o u r r e t e n t io n o f t h e d e li v e r n o t e s a n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e d I’ d li k e to g o
t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 w h ic h y o u fi n d c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e
9 1 o f t h e E x h i b i t D D 9 a n d i f y o u g o d o w n a t p a g e 9 2 , i t ’s th e s e c o n d
p a g e o f t h a t a ffi d a v i t to p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u s a y th e r e ,
“ A c c o r d i n g t o my d e l iv e r y n o t e s , t h e f u n d s w e r e d e li v e r e d a s
20

f o ll o w s ” ,
And then you detail what happened on the 8th of May and what
h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 6 t h o f S e p t e m b e r, I ’ m ju s t n o t s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t
d e li v e r y n o t e s y o u w e r e l o o k i n g a t th e r e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

As I s a i d e a r li e r, I d i d n ’ t w r it e th is a n d I

d i d n o t h a v e d e l iv e r y n o te s s o I t h i n k w h a t i t s h o u ld s a y is m a y b e m y

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
tr a n s a c ti o n s h e e ts b e c a u s e I d i d n o t h a v e a n y s l i p s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Vi lj o e n y o u d id g i v e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u

d i d n ’ t w r i te i t b u t y o u d i d g i v e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u r e a d i t b e f o r e y o u
s ig n e d i t , c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h is i s a n e r r o r i n i t ’s r e c o r d a l ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
Yo u d i d n ’ t h a v e d e liv e r y n o te s ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

Ja.

I d i d n o t h a v e d e liv e r y n o te s .

S o y o u e n g a g e M s Z o g b y b e c a u s e y o u w a n t to

see if she has copies.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s m a y b e s h e m ig h t h a v e c o p ie s a n d I

ju s t d i d n ’ t g e t i t o r – I c a n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h y I d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e c o p i e s ,
t h a t ’s w h y I s a i d m a y b e w e d i d n o t w r i t e a n y t h i n g o u t b u t ja I c o n t a c te d
h e r t o s e e m a y b e if s h e ’s g o t r e c e i p ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d d id y o u s a ti s fy y o u r s e lf a s t o th e

d e li v e r y n o t e s a n d th e ir a u t h e n t ic i t y b e f o r e y o u h a n d e d t h e m o v e r t o
the Hawks?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

N o a n d w h e n w e h a d t h is d is c u s s i o n I

w e n t a n d I t h o u g h t a b o u t i t , m y d r iv e r d e li v e r e d th e m a n d I w e n t t o p u t
them in my car and then I went to pick up my daughter and I never
c h e c k e d th e m u p u n t il w h e n t h e H a w k s o p e n e d u p t h e b r o w n e n v e lo p e
a n d it h a d my n a m e o n i t a n d w h e n th e y o p e n e d i t t h a t w a s t h e fir s t
ti m e I s a w i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h a t p e r i o d o f ti m e la p s e b e t w e e n y o u

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
c o l l e c ti n g t h e m a n d y o u m e e t in g w i t h t h e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t ’s p r o b a b ly a d a y o r tw o .
A n d c a n w e g o t o t h o s e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u

say were in the brown envelope.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
Yo u ’ll fi n d t h e m a t p a g e 6 4 a r e th o s e – a n d

t h e y c o m p r is e t h r e e p a g e s a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e , i t ’s 6 4 , 6 5 a n d 6 6
correct.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A r e t h e s e a c c u r a t e c o p ie s o f w h a t y o u s a w

in t h e b r o w n e n v e l o p e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
A n d a r e t h e s e y o u r d e liv e r y n o te s ?
Th e y a r e n o t , n o C h a ir.
D o y o u h a v e a n y o t h e r k n o w le d g e a b o u t

these documents?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

J u s t w h e n I g a v e t h e m to t h e H a w k s I s a id

t o t h e m , th e s e a r e n o t m y d e li v e r y s l i p s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

Yo u s a y i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t th a t y o u

t h i n k … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r, l e t m e j u s t g e t t h is , w h e n y o u

s p o k e to M r M a r k i d e s ’ PA , t o a s k f o r th e i r c o p i e s o f d e liv e r y n o t e s , is
t h e p o s it i o n t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e a s k i n g f o r, w a s c o p i e s o f w h a t y o u r
d r i v e r s w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t b a c k t o y o u , a ft e r th e y h a d d e l iv e r e d c a s h
to them.

Page 113 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B u t w h a t th e y g a v e y o u – w h a t s h e g a v e y o u w a s

d e li v e r y n o t e s o r w a s s o m e t h i n g d i ffe r e n t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t , y e s C h a ir.

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e , Ms Vi lj o e n y o u

s p e c u l a te a t p a r a g r a p h - if w e r e t u r n i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t t o p a g e 1 2 y o u s a y
a t p a r a g r a p h 4 . – s o r r y 6 . 4 . 3 .1 3 o n t h a t p a g e ,
“ I c o n fir m h a v i n g n o w c o n s i d e r e d th e s e s li p s a n d o n c e a g a i n
10

r e i t e r a te th a t t h e s li p s a r e n o t m y d o c u m e n ts a n d I’ m u n a b l e t o
c o m m e n t o n s a m e , fu r t h e r t h a n t o s t a t e t h a t I b e l i e v e th a t th e y
m a y w e l l b e e v i d e n c e o f t h e o n - d e li v e r y o f f u n d s o n c e A M F S
h a d d e li v e r e d s a m e ” ,
Do you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I d o s e e th a t .
W h a t i s t h e b a s is fo r y o u r c o m m e n t t h e r e ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Can you elaborate please?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I’ m a s k i n g w h y y o u s a id w h a t y o u s a i d i n

t h is p a r a g r a p h , w h y d o y o u s u r m is e t h a t th e y h a v e t o d o w i t h o n 20

d e li v e r y ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W e l l t h a t is c l e a r ly w h a t h a s b e e n

h a p p e n in g w i th M r M a r k i d e s ’ c a s e s , i f I j u s t l o o k a t t h e S M E c a s e s o I
c a n m a k e th a t a s s u m p t io n th a t t h e f u n d s a c t u a ll y n e v e r w e n t f o r h is
b u s i n e s s a n d i t w e n t o n t o s o m e o n e e ls e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e r e th o s e f a c ts t h a t w e r e e s t a b l is h e d i n

Page 114 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
the SME bank of Namibia case?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
S o h e t r a n s a c t e d w i th y o u b u t t h e n h e m a d e

t h o s e f u n d s a v a i l a b le t o a t h ir d p a r t y ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o i t ’s o n t h a t b a s is t h a t y o u r e g a r d t h e s e

as evidence of the onward movement of the cash.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Ye s .
If we then move over to page 13 we are

fi n a l ly, C h a ir, g o i n g t o a r r iv e a t t h e tr a n s a c t io n s th a t a r e r e le v a n t t o t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n , th e b a c k g r o u n d , I s u b mi t h a s b e e n i m p o r t a n t th o u g h t o
u n d e r s t a n d t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e b u s i n e s s w a s o p e r a t i n g . A s I h a v e
it M s Vi l jo e n t h e r e w e r e t h r e e tr a n s a c ti o n s r e l a t e d t o m a t te r s in v o lv in g
K o r o n e k a a c lo s e c o m p a n y, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I ’ d lik e t o s u g g e s t t h a t w e ju s t g o t o th e

b a n k s t a te m e n ts to p ic k u p w h e r e t h o s e p a y m e n ts w e r e r e c e iv e d b y
A M F S , t h e fi r s t o f th o s e y o u ’ ll fi n d a t p a g e 7 0 , is t h i s y o u r C C ’s b a n k
s t a te m e n t ?
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Ye s it is C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u w e r e b a n k i n g a t th a t p o i n t w i t h

N e d b a n k c o r r e c t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I f y o u g o t o th e f o u r t h li n e o n t h a t p a g e , y o u ’l l

s e e a d a t e 0 8 / 0 5 / 2 0 1 5 a n d th e n y o u ’ ll s e e a n e x t c o l u m n t h a t i s

Page 115 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
h e a d e d , d e s c r ip t io n o r n a r r a ti v e , d o y o u s e e t h a t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s C h a ir.
W h a t is r e f le c t e d a s t h e d e s c r i p t i o n o r

n a r r a t iv e f o r t h a t … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Koroneka…(intervention).

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

K o r o n e k a a n d th e d a t e .

K o r o n e k a a n d th e d a t e .

M s Vi lj o e n j u s t w a it u n ti l s h e h a s fi n is h e d t h e

q u e s t io n a n d th e n a n s w e r, o k a y.
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y C h a ir.
U n d e r d e s c r ip t io n o r n a r r a tiv e , p le a s e r e a d

o u t t o u s w h a t is r e f l e c te d t h e r e .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

K o r o n e k a a n d th e d a t e .
J u s t to g e t t h a t 0 6 / 0 5 / 2 0 1 5 c o r r e c t .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i f w e m o v e a c r o s s t o c r e d i ts , w h a t i s

t h e a m o u n t t h a t c o m e s in t o y o u r b a n k a c c o u n t ?

20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Th e 2 m il li o n .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y s o l e t ’s s t o p t h e r e . Yo u ’ v e t o l d u s a

lo t a b o u t h o w y o u w o u ld c h e c k p a y m e n ts t h a t c a m e i n to v e r i fy w h o w a s
sending you the amounts, so when Koroneka and a date two days prior
t o t h is d a t e c a m e in t o y o u r a c c o u n t , th a t d id n ’ t c a u s e y o u c o n c e r n , t h a t
it m i g h t h a v e b e e n fr o m a s o u r c e o t h e r t h a n Mr M a r k i d e s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No.
Why not?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

L ik e I s a id I c o n fir m e d w i t h t h e m t h a t it is

t h e ir f u n d s a n d m y a s s u m p ti o n is th e y u s in g K o r o n e k a fo r t h e ir o w n
r e fe r e n c in g p u r p o s e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R ig h t a n d t h e n th e s e c o n d o n e o n t h a t

p a g e , y o u ’l l f in d … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y th a t la s t a n s w e r, w h y w o u l d t h e y u s e a

r e fe r e n c e t h a t w o u l d m e a n n o t h i n g t o y o u w h e n t h e y d e p o s i t a m o u n ts
in t o y o u r a c c o u n t .

Is n ’ t t h e p u r p o s e o f a r e fe r e n c e s o th a t w h e n y o u

s e e t h e a m o u n ts , y o u k n o w w h a t i t ’s f o r a n d w h e r e i t’s c o m in g fr o m ?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

C h a ir I h a d th is d is c u s s i o n w i t h M s

H o f m e y r w h e n w e m e t t h e f ir s t ti m e a n d y o u ’l l s e e o n m y s e c o n d b a n k
s t a te m e n t t h e r e ’s c l ie n ts u s i n g A M F S a s th e ir r e f e r e n c e a n d s o I h a d t o
c a l l c l ie n ts a n d c o n fi r m t h a t, th a t w a s t h e ir m o n e y s o t h e r e f e r e n c e
m e a n s n o t h i n g t o m e b u t i t is i m p o r ta n t f o r th e c li e n t o f c o u r s e . S o I
d i d n o t fi n d t h a t t o b e fu n n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t a r e f e r e n c e w a s

important to you.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o , n o t h e r e f e r e n c i n g is n o t i m p o r ta n t t o

me.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e te ll y o u w h y I w o u ld th in k it w a s i m p o r t a n t

b e c a u s e t h e n y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e t o p h o n e th e c l ie n t e a c h ti m e t h e r e
w a s m o n e y p u t in t o t h e a c c o u n t , i f y o u h a d a r e f e r e n c e w i th a c li e n t to
s a y i n y o u r d e a li n g s w i t h m e , y o u r r e f e r e n c e , w h e n y o u d e p o s i t a n y
m o n e y w il l h a v e t o b e t h i s , a n d i f y o u s a w t h a t t h e r e w a s m o n e y u n d e r
t h a t r e f e r e n c e th e n y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e t o p h o n e t h e c l i e n t , d o y o u

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
agree?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do agree yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d id n ’t h a v e t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t w it h y o u r c l i e n t s ?

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d id n o t h a v e t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t t h o u g h n o .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u d i d t e l l u s th a t i n a m o r n i n g y o u c o u l d g e t

u p t o a h u n d r e d r e q u e s ts ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N e a r th e e n d y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e f a c t t h a t y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e th a t a r r a n g e m e n t

m u s t h a v e m e a n t y o u h a d t o m a k e m a n y c a lls .
10

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : N o w h e n i t w a s l a t e r i n th e b u s i n e s s , w h e n I
g o t a l l t h o s e p h o n e c a l ls , t h e y d i d s t a r t u s in g r e fe r e n c e s i d e n ti fy i n g
t h e m s e l v e s b e t t e r b u t w h e n i t a l l s t a r t e d , I d id n o t h a v e t h a t a g r e e m e n t
o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t w it h t h e c li e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If we look on that page 70 for the second

r e l e v a n t tr a n s a c t i o n f o r o u r p u r p o s e s , M s Vi lj o e n a n d C h a ir y o u ’ ll f in d i t
ju s t b e y o n d m i d w a y d o w n th a t p a g e th e r e ’s a n o t h e r e n tr y o n t h e 11 t h o f
M a y 2 0 1 5 t h a t r e a d s K o r o n e k a , d o y o u s e e th a t M s Vi l jo e n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I do.
A n d w h a t w a s t h e a m o u n t d e p o s it e d o n th e

11 t h o f M a y ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

2 m i lli o n .
And then if we go over to page 74 –

a p o lo g i e s n o t 7 4 , 8 4 y o u ’ll s e e a g a in , j u s t b e l o w h a l f w a y d o w n t h a t
p a g e th e r e ’s a n e n t r y fo r t h e d a te 1 6 S e p t e m b e r a n d th e d e s c r i p ti o n i s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
B K , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I d o C h a ir.
D o y o u c o n f ir m – w e ll w h a t is t h e a m o u n t o f

t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y l e t m e j u s t t r y a n d s e e i f I c a n fi n d i t.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A p o l o g i e s , i t ’s v e r y d i ffi c u l t t o f i n d it C h a ir

if y o u … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W i ll I f i n d t h e r e f e r e n c e t o B K o n th e s e c o n d

c o l u m n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s i n t h e d e s c r i p ti o n c o l u m n , C h a ir i f y o u

tr a c k t h e d e s c r i p t i o n c o lu m n d o w n ju s t b e l o w h a l f w a y y o u ’l l s e e a B K .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja I see it.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e a m o u n t t h e r e M s Vil j o e n ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t ’s 5 m il li o n .
5 m il li o n a n d t h e s e th r e e a m o u n ts r e f le c ti n g

K o r o n e k a o n t h e 8 t h o f M a y, K o r o n e k a o n t h e 11 t h o f M a y a n d B K o n t h e
1 6 t h o f S e p t e m b e r, h a v e y o u s a t is fi e d y o u r s e l f , a ll r e l a te to p a y m e n t s
fr o m K o r o n e k a ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d n o t fr o m M r M a r k i d e s ?
Ye s .

A n d i t’s S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , 2 0 1 6 ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .

A l l 2 0 1 5 C h a ir.

A ll 2 0 1 5 , o k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir w e ’r e g o i n g to l o o k , i n a m o m e n t in

Page 119 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M s Vi l jo e n ’s e v i d e n c e a t th e fl o w o f f u n d s d i a g r a m b e c a u s e t h o s e d a te s
b e c o m e r e l e v a n t w h e n w e l o o k b a c k a t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t ’s b e e n g iv e n
p r e v i o u s ly a b o u t w h e n p r e c is e l y f u n d s c a m e i n to K o r o n e k a a n d w h e n
t h is t o t a l o f 9 m i ll io n c a m e o u t b u t w e ’ ll g e t to t h a t a t a n a p p r o p r ia t e
p o i n t , w i th y o u r l e a v e , a n d M s Vil jo e n I’ d t h e n l ik e to ta k e y o u , i f w e
m a y, t o p a g e 1 4 , t h e n e x t p a g e o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y.
A n d p ic k i t u p a t 3 .- s o r r y a t 7 . 3 .7 b e c a u s e

h e r e y o u p ic k u p th e p o i n t a b o u t y o u r s e l f n o t b e in g in p o s s e s s i o n o f th e
10

d e li v e r y s l i p s , p a g e 1 4 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y w h a t p a g e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Page 14.

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w e a r e a t p a r a g r a p h 7 . 3 .7 .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s a y t h e r e ,

“ A l t h o u g h I ’ m n o t in p o s s e s s i o n o f th e d e li v e r y s l ip s r e l a t i n g t o
t h e th r e e d e l iv e r ie s , I c o n f ir m th a t t h e f u n d s w e r e d e l iv e r e d t o
M a r k i d e s a t h i s p la c e o f b u s i n e s s a n d L i s a Z o g b y c o n fir m e d
20

t h is b y s e n d i n g t h e ir v e r s i o n o f t h e r e c e i p t s ” ,
D o y o u s e e t h a t M s Vi lj o e n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I do.
W h e n y o u s a y a t h i s p la c e o f b u s i n e s s

there, what place do you mean?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W h i tt a k e r.

Page 120 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u k n o w t h a t f o r c e r ta i n ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W e d i d m o s t d e l iv e r i e s t o – a c t u a ll y n o I

d o n ’t e v e r r e c a ll u s d o i n g d e l iv e r i e s t o t h e ir S p r i n g s a d d r e s s s o I w a n t
t o s a y y e s , w e d i d t h e d e l iv e r ie s a ll to W h i t ta k e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t f o ll o w i n g o n fr o m th e C h a i r ’s li n e o f

q u e s t io n in g e a r li e r y o u d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t a s a f a c t d o y o u ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n ’ t k n o w i t a s a fa c t b u t m y i n s tr u c t io n s
t o m y d r i v e r s w e r e W h i t t a k e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D e s p i te w h a t w a s r e fl e c t e d o n t h e i n v o ic e s ?
Ye s .
M s Vi l j o e n I th e n w a n t t o m o v e t o p a r a g r a p h

7 .3 . 9 a n d 7 . 3 . 1 0 o n t h a t p a g e b e c a u s e y o u m a k e s o m e – w h a t I w a n t t o
s u g g e s t a r e c o n c l u d i n g r e m a r k s t h e r e a ft e r y o u r a ffi d a v i t h a s d e ta il e d
t h e fa c ts o f y o u r e n g a g e m n ts w i th M r M a r k id e s a n d y o u r p r o c e s s e s . A t
p a r a g r a p h 7 .3 . 9 y o u s t a t e ,
“ I w is h to r e c o r d th a t I t o o k a ll s t e p s n e c e s s a r y t o e s ta b lis h
M a r k i d e s ’ id e n ti ty a n d c o n f ir m e d s a m e b y o b ta in i n g a c o p y o f
h is id e n ti ty d o c u m e n t , I o b ta i n e d h is in c o m e ta x n u m b e r a n d
p e r s o n a l ly in s p e c t e d h i s b u s in e s s p r e m is e s , a n d th e n t h e n e x t
20

p a r a g r a p h , I n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y c a s h a t a ll fr o m M a r k i d e s a n d
I f u r t h e r c o n f ir m t h a t th e tr a n s a c t i o n s i n q u e s t io n w e r e r u n o f
t h e m i ll f o r c a s h i n tr a n s i t b u s i n e s s a n d d i d n o t s e e m
suspicious at all”,
D o y o u s t a n d b y th o s e s t a te m e n ts ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I do yes.

Page 121 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t h e n – I k e p t p r o m is i n g in th e c o u r s e o f

y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t w e w o u l d fi n a l ly g o t o F I C A a n d l o o k a t th e v a r i o u s
o b li g a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a d a s a n a c c o u n t a b l e in s t i tu t io n . C h a i r w i t h y o u r
le a v e I’ d l ik e t o g o t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s le t ’s d o t h a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u ’ ll f in d t h e r e le v a n t p r o v i s i o n s i n th e

le g i s l a ti o n b u n d le u n d e r t a b 5 w h ic h c o n ta in s t h e Fi n a n c i a l I n t e ll ig e n c e
C e n tr e A c t 3 8 o f 2 0 0 1 a n d w h e r e I ’ d li k e t o s u g g e s t w e s t a r t, is a t p a g e
1 2 2 o f – w i t h i n th a t A c t . M s Vi lj o e n , w e ’v e a l r e a d y e s ta b l is h e d i n y o u r
10

e v i d e n c e t h e i m p o r t a n c e p l a c e d o n … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry Ms Hofmeyr did you say page 122?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

1 2 2 i n t h e t o p r ig h t p a g i n a t i o n , d o y o u h a v e

t h a t C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W e ’v e a lr e a d y c o v e r e d in y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e

r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h a t a c c o u n ta b le i n s ti t u ti o n s h a v e t o t a k e s t e p s t o g u a r d
a g a in s t m o n e y l a u n d e r in g , y o u a c c e p t t h a t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

I do.

A n d y o u h a d t a k e n l e g a l a d v ic e t h a t y o u w e r e

a n a c c o u n t a b le i n s ti t u ti o n u n d e r F I C A i n t h e f o r m o f a m o n e y r e m it t e r,
correct?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Correct.
S o w e s t a r t w it h w h a t t h e F I C A

r e q u ir e m e n t s a r e o n t h a t p a g e a t s e c t i o n 2 1 , y o u h a v e t o a m o n g o t h e r
t h i n g s – I’ m g o i n g t o s u m m a r is e , j u s t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e e ff ic ie n c y

Page 122 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
o f th e e v id e n c e , w h a t s e c t io n 2 1 i s c o n c e r n e d w i th is y o u r n e e d t o
e s t a b li s h a n d v e r i fy t h e id e n ti ty o f th e c l i e n t , t h a t’s u n d e r 2 1 ( 1 ) A , d o
you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
r e q u ir e d

to

I see that yes.
A n d th e n i f y o u g o d o w n t o 2 1 A y o u ’r e a ls o

understand

and

obtain

i n f o r m a ti o n

on

the

business

r e l a ti o n s h i p , d o y o u s e e t h a t , a n d w h a t y o u h a v e th e r e i s t h e f o l l o w i n g ,
“ W h e n a n a c c o u n t a b le i n s t it u ti o n e n g a g e s w i th a p r o s p e c t iv e
c li e n t t o e s t a b li s h a b u s i n e s s r e la t io n s h i p a s c o n te m p l a t e d i n
10

S e c t io n 2 1 , t h e i n s ti t u ti o n m u s t , i n a d d i ti o n to t h e s te p s
r e q u ir e d

under

21,

and

in

accordance

with

i t’s

r is k

m a n a g e m e n t c o m p l i a n c e p r o g r a m m e , o b t a i n i n fo r m a ti o n t o
r e a s o n a b ly e n a b l e th e a c c o u n t a b l e i n s t i t u t i o n t o d e t e r m i n e
w h e t h e r f u tu r e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t w i ll b e p e r f o r m e d in t h e
c o u r s e o f t h e b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p c o n c e r n e d , a r e c o n s i s t e n t
w i t h t h e i n s ti t u ti o n s k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t p r o s p e c ti v e c l ie n t
in c l u d i n g i n f o r m a t io n d e s c r i b i n g a ) th e n a t u r e o f t h e b u s in e s s
r e l a ti o n s h i p

concerned,

b)

the

intended

purpose

of

th e

b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p c o n c e r n e d , c ) t h e c o u r s e o f t h e f u n d s
20

w h ic h t h e p r o s p e c t iv e c li e n t e x p e c t s t o u s e i n c o n c l u d i n g
tr a n s a c ti o n s

in

the

course

of

the

business

r e l a ti o n s h i p

concerned”,
Do you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I do.
A n d I h a v e i t a s y o u r p r i o r e v id e n c e t h a t

Page 123 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
y o u d i d n o t a t a n y p o i n t, e s ta b lis h t h e s o u r c e o f fu n d s a s y o u w e r e
r e q u ir e d t o d o u n d e r s e c ti o n 2 1 A ( C ) i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

To m e , e s t a b l is h i n g w h e r e t h e f u n d s c a m e

fr o m w a s t o c o n ta c t a n d c o n fir m w i t h t h e c l ie n t t h a t i t is t h e ir fu n d s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e s o u r c e o f f u n d s th a t t h e p r o s p e c ti v e

c li e n t e x p e c ts t o u s e i n c o n c l u d i n g t h e tr a n s a c ti o n , l e t’s b r e a k i t d o w n
in f a ir n e s s .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

O k a y.
Yo u r c l ie n t i s tr a n s a c ti n g w it h y o u , is i t n o t

b y d e p o s i t in g a n a m o u n t in y o u r a c c o u n t .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
S o w h a t t h is s e c ti o n – i f w e r e a d t h a t

s e c t io n i n p l a i n t e r m s i t ’s s a y in g y o u m u s t e s ta b l is h w h e r e th e s o u r c e
o f f u n d s f o r t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n w i t h y o u is c o m i n g fr o m , d o y o u s e e t h a t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

A g a i n I w o u l d r e a d i t a s , th e y a r e t h e

s o u r c e a n d I c o n fi r m e d t h e y a r e t h e s o u r c e fr o m th e m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u r e c e i v e l e g a l a d v ic e t o th a t e ff e c t ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Not that I can recall.

W o u ld y o u h a v e r e a d th is y o u r s e l f, t h e a c t u a l Ac t

yourself?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r C h a ir.

In o t h e r w o r d s , w h e r e w o u ld y o u h a v e g a i n e d

in f o r m a ti o n f r o m ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

I d i d a s k m y a tt o r n e y … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

H a n g o n M s Vi lj o e n j u s t le a r n t o w a i t u n ti l th e

Page 124 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
q u e s t io n i s c o m p l e te d , o k a y.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y C h a ir.

W h e r e w o u ld y o u h a v e g o t t h e i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m a s

t o w h a t y o u r o b li g a ti o n s w e r e u n d e r FI C A ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

My a tt o r n e y s e n t i t to m e a n d I p r o b a b ly

w o u ld h a v e r e a d i t o n a l l t h e i n f o r m a t i o n s e n t t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w o u ld h a v e – d i d h e s e n d t o y o u t h e w h o le A c t ,

d i d h e s e n d t o y o u r e l e v a n t s e c t io n s o f t h e A c t , d i d h e s e n d t o y o u a
m e m o o r a n o te o r a l e tt e r e x p l a i n in g w h a t t h e o b li g a ti o n s w e r e ?
10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i n w h ic h f o r m a t i t w a s

s e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r.

O k a y b u t d o y o u h a v e a r e c o ll e c ti o n th a t y o u d i d

r e a d t h e A c t o r y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t h a t r e c o ll e c ti o n , th e A c t – w h e n I s a y
t h e Ac t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t y o u r e a d t h e w h o l e A c t b u t a t l e a s t y o u
r e a d w h a t y o u c o n s i d e r e d w a s n e c e s s a r y t o e s t a b l is h y o u r o b l ig a ti o n s .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

you

to

e s t a b li s h

I d o r e m e m b e r r e a d in g s o m e y e s .

O k a y a n d y o u d id u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e Ac t r e q u ir e d
th e

source

of

th e

funds

or

what

was

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s I c a n c o n fir m w i t h

t h e c l ie n t t h a t i t i s th e i r fu n d s a n d t h a t w o u ld o f c o u r s e t h e n b e th e
source of the funds.
CHAIRPERSON:

That was your understanding?

Page 125 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

N o t th a t y o u h a d t o a s k th e c l i e n t , w h e r e d i d y o u

g e t t h e f u n d s fr o m ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t to g o b a c k to th e l a n g u a g e o f 2 1 A ( C )

y o u ’ ll s e e t h a t it s a y s t h a t w h a t y o u n e e d to e s t a b lis h i s t h e s o u r c e o f
t h e f u n d s w h i c h t h a t p r o s p e c tiv e c li e n t e x p e c ts t o u s e in c o n c lu d in g
tr a n s a c ti o n s i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e b u s i n e s s r e la t i o n s h ip .
10

So source of

f u n d s a r e w h e r e th e y g o t , w h a t t h e y a r e g o in g to u s e in tr a n s a c ti n g w i t h
y o u , d o y o u s e e th a t r e a d i n g ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I see that now yes.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u d i d n ’ t s e e t h a t r e a d i n g a t a n y p o i n t

p r e v i o u s ly ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I d o n ’ t r e c a ll d o i n g t h a t n o .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If we go over the page to page 123 the next

r e l e v a n t o b li g a ti o n is a t 2 1 ( C ) r i g h t a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e , i t ’s a
r e q u ir e m e n t t o d o o n g o i n g d u e d i li g e n c e , w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t
o b li g a ti o n ?
20

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

N o C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u ’ ll s e e , w e ’v e h a d t h i s r e f e r e n c e

before,

t h e r e ’s

management

a

and

constant

r e fe r e n c e

c o m p li a n c e

in

programme

this

s e c t io n

that

each

in s t i tu t io n h a s t o d e v e lo p , h a d y o u d e v e l o p e d o n e o f t h o s e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Can you repeat that please?

Page 126 of 228

to

a

r is k

accountable

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

If y o u l o o k a t s e c ti o n 2 1 ( C ) i t b e g i n s ,

“ A n a c c o u n t a b l e in s t i tu t io n m u s t , i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h it ’s r is k
m a n a g e m e n t a n d c o m p l ia n c e p r o g r a m m e ” ,
A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n t o t a lk a b o u t th e v a r i o u s s te p s y o u ta k e to
d o a d u e d il ig e n c e . W h a t I ’ m i n t e r e s t e d i n , w e ’v e h a d t h a t r e f e r e n c e t o
t h e r i s k m a n a g e m e n t a n d c o m p li a n c e p r o g r a m m e in th e p r e v i o u s
s e c t io n w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t , a n d I’ m j u s t a s k i n g , d i d y o u d e v e lo p a r i s k
m a n a g e m e n t a n d c o m p l ia n c e p r o g r a m m e i n y o u r b u s i n e s s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
10

I did not no.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A r e y o u a w a r e t h a t , th a t ’s a n o t h e r

r e q u ir e m e n t o f a c c o u n t a b le in s ti t u t i o n s u n d e r F I C A ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No.
P le a s e g iv e th e a n s w e r n o w ?

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

No.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you, if we speak at the same time,

t h e r e c o r d c a n ’ t p ic k it u p .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n 2 1 ( E ) is f a i r ly i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e

c o n d u c t in g o f y o u r b u s i n e s s M s Vi l jo e n b e c a u s e w h a t 2 1 ( E) p r o v i d e s i s
20

t h a t i f a n a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n is u n a b l e to d o c e r t a i n th in g s , a n d I’ ll
g o in t o i t i n d e ta il , i t m a y n o t e s ta b lis h a b u s i n e s s r e la t io n s h i p w i t h a n y
c li e n t a n d l e t’s l o o k a t w h a t y o u h a v e t o h a v e i n t e r m s o f t h is s e c t io n
b e f o r e y o u c a n c o n d u c t b u s in e s s . Yo u h a v e t o e s t a b lis h a n d v e r i f y th e
id e n t i ty o f t h e c li e n t o r o t h e r r e le v a n t p e r s o n , th a t ’s a ) u n d e r b ) y o u
h a v e t o o b t a i n t h e i n fo r m a ti o n c o n t e m p l a t e d i n 2 1 ( A ) y o u ’l l r e c a ll t h a t ’s

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t h e s e c ti o n d e a li n g w i t h s o u r c e o f f u n d s a n d y o u h a v e t o c o n d u c t a n
o n g o i n g d u e d il ig e n c e a s c o n t e m p l a t e d in 2 1 ( C ) w h ic h w e ’v e j u s t b e e n
lo o k in g a t a n d i f y o u f a il t o d o a n y o f th o s e t h r e e t h in g s u n d e r ( i) y o u
m a y n o t e s t a b l is h a b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p o r c o n c l u d e a s in g le
tr a n s a c ti o n w it h a c l ie n t , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I see that.
Ms Vi lj o e n y o u r e v i d e n c e h a s b e e n t h a t y o u

d i d n o t ta k e t h o s e s t e p s , c o r r e c t ?

10

MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

Correct.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h is s e c t i o n m e a n s y o u w e r e p r o h i b i t e d

fr o m

e s t a b lis h in g

any

business

r e la t i o n s h i p

or

concluding

any

tr a n s a c ti o n w i th a n y o f t h e c l ie n ts i n r e s p e c t o f w h o m y o u d i d n o t ta k e
those steps, do you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I see that yes.
Th a n k y o u , i f w e g o o v e r th e p a g e t o

s e c t io n 1 2 5 , t h o s e a r e t h e s e c t io n s t h e r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e d u ty t o k e e p
r e c o r d s . I in d ic a t e d t o y o u e a r li e r i n t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e ’ d g o b a c k t o
t h o s e s e c t io n s .

In s u m m a r y f o r m , a n d I’ m h a p p y t o g o to t h e a c t u a l

t e x t if y o u w a n t t o , b u t w h a t s e c t io n s 2 2 a n d 2 2 ( A) i n d ic a t e is t h a t y o u
20

m u s t k e e p r e c o r d s o f t h e d u e d il i g e n c e s t h a t a r e d o n e a n d y o u m u s t
a ls o k e e p tr a n s a c ti o n r e c o r d s , w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t o b l i g a t io n ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

No I was not.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n a t s e c ti o n 2 3 it m a k e s c le a r t h a t

t h o s e r e c o r d s h a v e t o b e k e p t fo r a p e r i o d o f a t l e a s t fi v e y e a r s u n d e r
s u b ( a ) , d o y o u s e e t h a t?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I do.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I ta k e i t y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f th a t

o b li g a ti o n e i t h e r ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

As I said earlier no.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n M s Vi lj o e n i f w e g o o v e r to p a g e

1 2 9 – C h a ir I s e e w e a r e a t 1 o ’c l o c k t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts ju s t
t o c o m p le t e o n F I C A , w i t h y o u r l e a v e I s u g g e s t w e d o th a t a n d th e n
take the break.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s le t ’s d o t h a t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o a t p a g e 1 2 9 t h e r e ’s a s e c t i o n d e a l i n g w i t h

s u s p i c i o u s a n d u n u s u a l tr a n s a c ti o n s , t h a t’s s e c t io n 2 9 , d o y o u s e e
that?
MS KIALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I see that yes.
C h a ir t h i s s e c ti o n is o n e o f t h e s e c t i o n s o f

F I C A t h a t a c tu a lly i s n o t c o n f i n e d t o a c c o u n t a b l e i n s t i tu t io n s , m o s t o f
t h e s e c ti o n s o f th e A c t p l a c e o b li g a t i o n s o n a c c o u n t a b l e i n s t i tu t io n s
a n d t h a t ’s w h y w e ’ v e b e e n e n g a g i n g w i t h Ms Vi l jo e n b e c a u s e s h e
u n d e r s t o o d h e r s e l f t o b e a n a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n .

S e c ti o n 2 9 i s

a c t u a ll y m u c h b r o a d e r, i t a p p l i e s t o a n y p e r s o n w h o c a r r i e s o n a
20

b u s i n e s s o r is i n c h a r g e o f o r m a n a g e s a b u s i n e s s o r w h o is e m p l o y e d
b y a b u s in e s s a n d w h o k n o w s o r o u g h t r e a s o n a b ly t o h a v e k n o w n o r
s u s p e c t e d c e r ta i n t h i n g s . I o n ly p r e f a c e t h e q u e s t i o n

w i th t h a t s o t h a t

w e u n d e r s t a n d t h is i s a n o b l ig a ti o n t h a t a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n s a n d
o th e r s h a v e u n d e r F I C A a n d w h a t y o u ’r e r e q u ir e d t o d o , M s Vi lj o e n a s
a n y p e r s o n w h o c a r r i e s o n a b u s i n e s s is t o m a k e a r e p o r t t o th e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
Fi n a n c i a l I n t e l li g e n c e C e n tr e i f i n th e c o u r s e o f y o u r b u s i n e s s y o u c o m e
a c r o s s w h a t a r e c a l le d s u s p ic io u s a n d u n u s u a l tr a n s a c ti o n s , w e r e y o u
a w a r e o f t h i s p r o v is io n o f t h e A c t a n d t h e o b l ig a ti o n s i t p l a c e d o n y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I was yes.
B u t I h a d y o u r e v id e n c e e a r li e r th a t y o u

d i d n ’ t l o o k a t t h e g u i d a n c e n o t e s e v e r t h a t w e r e p u b lis h e d b y F IC A is
t h a t r ig h t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

Th a t ’s r i g h t y e s .
Did you ever make a suspicious or unusual

tr a n s a c ti o n r e p o r t t o th e F I C i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r b u s i n e s s
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

No.
B u t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f t h e o b li g a ti o n t o d o

so?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
Yo u ’ ll s e e t h a t o n e o f t h e e x a m p l e s o f a

s u s p i c i o u s o r u n u s u a l tr a n s a c ti o n w h ic h y o u ’r e r e q u ir e d t o r e p o r t o n ,
u n d e r ( B ) is a t r a n s a c t io n a l s e r i e s o f tr a n s a c ti o n s t o w h i c h t h e
b u s i n e s s is a p a r ty ( i) f a c il i ta t e d o r is l ik e ly t o f a c il it a t e t h e tr a n s f e r o f
t h e p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w fu l a c ti v i ti e s o r p r o p e r ty w h ic h is c o n n e c t e d to a n
20

o ffe n c e r e l a ti n g to t h e fi n a n c i n g o f t e r r o r i s t o r r e l a te d a c t iv i ti e s a n d ( b )
it ’s a t r a n s a c t io n t h a t h a s n o a p p a r e n t b u s in e s s o r l a w f u l p u r p o s e , d o
you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I see it yes.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d t h e n u n d e r ( c ) t h e r e o n e o f th e o t h e r

s u s p i c i o u s o r u n u s u a l tr a n s a c ti o n s a r e tr a n s a c ti o n s w h e r e th e b u s in e s s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
h a s b e e n u s e d o r is a b o u t t o b e u s e d f o r m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g p u r p o s e s ,
do you see that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I see that yes.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o if y o u h a d b e e n a l e r te d t o t h e fa c t t h a t

y o u r b u s in e s s w a s b e i n g u s e d f o r a n y o f t h e s e p u r p o s e s , y o u d i d k n o w
t h a t y o u h a d a n o b li g a t io n to r e p o r t i t , c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .
C h a ir j u s t t o c o n c lu d e t h i s p o in t th e

g u i d a n c e n o te w h i c h i s o f r e l e v a n c e i s th e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a t 1 5 9 . 1 o f
10

t h is b u n d le a n d t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e y o u ’ ll fi n d a t 1 5 9 . 1 4 a n d y o u ’l l s e e o n
t h a t p a g e , M s Vi lj o e n t h e r e ’s a h e a d in g , U n u s u a l B u s i n e s s , d o y o u s e e
that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

I see that yes.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J u s t to g iv e y o u t h e b e n e fi t o f t h is p a r t o f

t h e n o t ic e , w h a t t h e F I C is d o in g i n th is g u i d a n c e n o t e i t , i t ’s tr y in g to
p r o v i d e f in a n c ia l – w e ll a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n s a n d o t h e r s w it h
g u i d a n c e a s t o w h a t th e y s h o u l d b e o n th e l o o k o u t fo r, fo r s u s p ic io u s
a n d u n u s u a l tr a n s a c t io n s a n d y o u ’ ll s e e u n d e r t h a t h e a d in g , U n u s u a l
B u s i n e s s , th e r e ’s a
20

l is t b u ll e te d o f th e ty p e s o f u n u s u a l b u s i n e s s e s

t h a t y o u s h o u ld b e o n th e l o o k o u t f o r a n d i t’s t h e fir s t o n e t h a t I ’ m
in t e r e s te d in ,

d e p o s i ts o f f u n d s w i th t h e r e q u e s t f o r t h e i m m e d ia t e

tr a n s fe r e ls e w h e r e . M s Vil jo e n th a t ’s a d e s c r i p ti o n o f y o u r b u s i n e s s ,
is n ’ t i t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .
T h a n k y o u , C h a i r t h e r e w il l b e a f e w

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
q u e s t io n s t o f o l l o w u p o n a f t e r t h e b r e a k I d o n ’t i m a g in e t h a t t h e y w i ll
t a k e l o n g , b u t i f i t ’s c o n v e n i e n t w e c a n ta k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e ’ ll t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k a n w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t

fi v e p a s t t w o . W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir w e to o k t h e l i b e r t y

o v e r t h e b r e a k o f r e p la c i n g y o u r a n d M s Vilj o e n ’s s o f t c o v e r f il e s i n to a
10

le v e r a r c h fi le w h ic h s h o u l d m a k e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e a f te r n o o n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s a
li t tl e b i t e a s ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I w a n t to p i c k u p i f I m a y w i th t h a t p o in t
a b o u t u n u s u a l b u s i n e s s p r a c ti c e s t h a t w e e n d e d b e f o r e t h e b r e a k w i th
M s Vil jo e n b u t b e fo r e d o i n g th a t M s Vi l jo e n in f a ir n e s s t o y o u th e
tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t th is c o m m i s s io n i s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t to o k p la c e in
2 0 1 5 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

20

M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h o s e w e r e t h e t w o in M a y a n d t h e o n e in

S e p te m b e r, c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h a n u m b e r o f p r o v i s i o n s
o f F IC A a s w e c a l li n g i t c o ll o q u ia ll y a n d i n f a ir n e s s t o y o u I m u s t p l a c e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
on record that some of those obligations arose pursuant to an
a m e n d m e n t i n t h e A c t i n 2 0 1 7 w h i c h w a s a f te r t h e tr a n s a c t io n s th a t a r e
r e l e v a n t t o t h e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n . I d o w a n t t o s t a te t h a t. W h a t
is c l e a r t h o u g h is t h a t t h e o n e s t h a t o p e r a t e d a t t h e t i m e r e q u ir e d
a d e q u a t e s t e p s to b e ta k e n to i d e n t if y a n d v e r if y t h e id e n ti ty o f y o u r
c li e n t s a n d I t a k e i t to b e y o u r e v id e n c e th a t y o u a r e n o w s a t is fi e d t h a t
t h e s t e p s y o u t o o k w e r e n o t a d e q u a t e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I w o u l d s ti ll s a y I th i n k th e y w e r e a d e q u a t e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

But you had no way of knowing that another

e n t i ty w a s in f a c t tr a n s a c t i n g w i t h y o u , r ig h t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s .

So you did not know that it was not Mr

M a r k i d e s d e p o s i ti n g R 2 m i ll i o n i n to y o u r a c c o u n t o n t h e 6 M a y 2 0 1 5 ,
correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e o b li g a ti o n s to k e e p t h e r e c o r d s w a s

p r e s e n t a t t h e t i m e a n d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o s a y y o u d id n o t k n o w o f
t h a t o b li g a ti o n a t t h e ti m e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
20

I w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t w e a r e g e t ti n g t h e

records back.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll th a t m a y b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s
f u r th e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n b u t w e w il l b e i n t o u c h w it h y o u i n d u e c o u r s e . I
w o u ld t h e n li k e t o p ic k u p th is p o i n t t h a t w e e n d e d o n w h e r e w e w e r e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
lo o k in g a t t h e g u i d e l in e s o f th e f i n a n c i a l i n te ll i g e n c e c e n tr e a b o u t
s u s p i c i o u s a n d u n u s u a l tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d w e lo o k e d a t p a g e 1 5 9 . 1 4 o f
t h e l e g i s l a ti o n b u n d l e a n d t h e q u e s ti o n I a s k e d j u s t b e f o r e t h e b r e a k
w a s t h e fi r s t u n u s u a l b u s i n e s s t h a t i s d e s c r i b e d b y FI C A a s r e q u ir i n g
t h e p o s s i b l e r e p o r t in g o b li g a ti o n u n d e r S e c t io n 2 9 t o a r is e is d e p o s i ts
o f f u n d s w i th a r e q u e s t f o r th e i r i m m e d i a t e tr a n s fe r e l s e w h e r e , y o u w il l
r e c a l l th a t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A n d j u s t f o r a b s o l u te c la r i ty t h a t S e c t io n 2 9

o b li g a ti o n to r e p o r t s u s p i c i o u s a n d u n u s u a l tr a n s a c ti o n s o p e r a t e d i n
2015 and you were aware of it as I have your evidence?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w e s a i d i s t h a t n o t a d e s c r ip t io n o f y o u r

b u s i n e s s a n d a f te r a li t tl e b i t o f a p a u s e I h a d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e y e s
it w a s .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w o u ld li k e t o p r o b e th a t j u s t a b it f u r t h e r

b e c a u s e I w a n t t o s u g g e s t to y o u th a t d e s p i t e y o u r d e s c r i p t i o n o f y o u r
b u s i n e s s a s a c a s h i n tr a n s i t s e r v i c e i t m a y w e ll n o t h a v e b e e n th a t a n d
20

le t m e d o s o in t h e f o l lo w in g w a y a n d I w o u l d lik e y o u r c o m m e n t o n h o w
I a m d e s c r i b i n g a r u n o f t h e m il l c a s h i n tr a n s i t b u s i n e s s . O k a y s o i t
s e e m s t o m e c a s h i n tr a n s i t w o r k s w h e n f o r e x a m p le r e t a i l e r s w h o h a v e
a n e e d f o r c a s h i n o r d e r t o c o n d u c t th e ir b u s i n e s s e s n e e d t o d e p o s i t
c a s h a t th e e n d o f th e d a y w i t h th e i r b a n k s a n d s o t h e y n e e d s o m e b o d y
t o tr a n s p o r t a l l o f th a t c a s h t h a t th e y h a v e o n s i t e t o t h e b a n k s o t h a t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h e ir f u n d s – t h o s e fu n d s c a n b e c r e d it e d t o t h e ir a c c o u n t, d o e s t h a t
s o u n d l ik e p a r t o f w h a t c a s h in tr a n s i t b u s i n e s s e s tr a d i ti o n a lly d o ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : It s o u n d s li k e p a r t o f i t y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o e n d o f a d a y o f r e ta il th e y ta k e th e m o n e y
fr o m th e r e t a i l e r t o i ts b a n k s o th a t i ts b a n k a c c o u n t c a n b e c r e d i t e d ,
correct?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t s e e m s t o m e t h o s e r e ta il e r s m a y a ls o n e e d

f u n d s m a y b e a t t h e s ta r t o f a w e e k o r a d a y b e c a u s e t h e y n e e d s o m a n y
10

R 5 c o i n s a n d s o m a n y R 1 0 n o te s a n d s o t h e y e n g a g e w i t h t h e ir b a n k
a n d t h e y t o t h e b a n k I n e e d t h i s m u c h t o b e w i t h d r a w n fr o m th e a c c o u n t
in t h e s e d e n o m i n a t i o n s a n d t h e n t h e b a n k p r o c u r e s s o m e b o d y t o b r i n g
it t o t h e m , d o e s t h a t s o u n d a c c u r a te t o y o u ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ar e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e Fi n a n c i a l In t e l li g e n c e

C e n tr e s G u i d a n c e N o te s o n m o n e y r e m i t t e r s o n l y i d e n t i fy b a n k s a n d
e n t i ti e s e n g a g e d i n fo r e ig n e x c h a n g e a s p o te n ti a l m o n e y r e m i t te r s
u n d e r th e Ac t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e c a s h i n tr a n s i t b u s i n e s s e s d o n o t e n te r
in t o t r a n s a c t io n s t h e tr a d i ti o n a l o n e s . D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: With you saying it yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O n t h e d e s c r i p ti o n I h a v e g iv e n t h e r e is n o

tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t i t is in v o lv e d i n b e c a u s e a l l i t d o e s i s l i te r a lly m o v e
m o n e y fr o m t h e r e ta il e r t o t h e b a n k w h e r e i t i s g o i n g to b e c r e d i te d

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a g a in s t i ts a c c o u n t o r fr o m t h e b a n k w h e r e i t h a s b e e n w i th d r a w n to t h e
r e ta il e r, d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e r e a s o n w h y t h is is i m p o r t a n t is b e c a u s e

a n y e n ti ti e s th a t r e c e iv e d e p o s i ts o f m o n e y fr o m th e g e n e r a l p u b li c a n d
t h e n h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t t o r e p a y t h o s e f u n d s o v e r t i m e to th e c li e n t s
fr o m w h o m t h e y r e c e i v e t h e m a r e a c t u a l ly o p e r a ti n g t h e b u s i n e s s o f a
bank, are you aware of that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y le t u s j u s t g o i n fa ir n e s s to t h o s e

s e c t io n s o f th e B a n k s A c t b e c a u s e w h a t th e y te ll u s is w h a t th e
b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k a n d w h a t a d e p o s i t m e a n s a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t
u n d e r th e la s t t a b o f th e le g i s l a ti o n b u n d l e . A n d it c o m m e n c e s C h a ir a t
page 221.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t it .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e le v a n t s e c ti o n I w o u l d l ik e t o lo o k a t
fir s t is a t p a g e 2 3 4 .

A n d t h a t i s w h e r e w e f in d t h e d e f i n i ti o n o f a

b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k a n d u n d e r A i t m e a n s th e a c c e p t a n c e o f d e p o s i t s
fr o m t h e g e n e r a l p u b l ic in c l u d i n g p e r s o n s in t h e e m p lo y o f t h e p e r s o n
20

s o a c c e p t i n g d e p o s i ts a s a r e g u l a r fe a t u r e o f t h e b u s in e s s i n q u e s ti o n .
M s Vil jo e n is t h a t n o t a d e s c r ip t io n o f y o u r b u s i n e s s ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

W o u ld d e p o s i ts b e E F T d e p o s i t s o r c a s h

d e p o s it s ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t u s l o o k a t t h e d e fi n i t io n o f d e p o s i t . Yo u

w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 2 2 7 .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: 227.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l s e e – a p o l o g i e s . Yo u w i ll s e e m id w a y
d o w n th a t p a g e a d e f in i ti o n o f d e p o s i t . I t s a y s t h e r e :
“ W h e n u s e d a s a n o u n i t m e a n s a n y a m o u n t o f m o n e y p a id
b y o n e p e r s o n to a n o th e r p e r s o n s u b je c t t o a n a g r e e m e n t
in t e r m s o f w h ic h
a . A n e q u a l a m o u n t o r p a r t t h e r e o f w i ll b e c o n d it i o n a l ly
o r u n c o n d it i o n a l ly r e p a i d e it h e r b y th e p e r s o n t o
whom the money has been so paid or by any other
10

p e r s o n w i t h o r w i t h o u t a p r e m iu m o n d e m a n d o r a t
s p e c i f i e d o r u n s p e c i fi e d d a t e s o r i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s
a g r e e d t o b y o r o n b e h a l f o f th e p e r s o n m a k i n g th e
p a y m e n t a n d t h e p e r s o n r e c e iv in g i t . ”
A n d t h e n b . te ll s t h a t i t is ir r e le v a n t w h e t h e r in t e r e s t is o r is n o t
p a y a b le o n th a t d e p o s i t . S o i n l a y m a n ’s t e r m s a s I r e a d t h a t s e c t io n a
d e p o s it is w h e n y o u r e c e iv e a n a m o u n t o f m o n e y – a n a m o u n t o f m o n e y
is p a i d fr o m p e r s o n A t o p e r s o n B a n d t h e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n
t h o s e t w o p e o p l e t h a t i t w i ll b e r e p a i d o n a n y te r ms . ,
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : O n a n y te r ms y e s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J a . D o y o u s e e t h a t?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t w h a t y o u r b u s i n e s s w a s d o i n g ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e I m u s t j u s t r a i s e a q u e s t io n .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t I th o u g h t o f w h e n I w a s tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d

w h a t th e n e e d w a s f o r h e r b u s i n e s s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i n a r i ly w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t th e d e p o s it o f m o n e y
y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t d e p o s i t in g c a s h b u t s o m e ti m e s y o u m a y b e d e p o s i t in g
a cheque.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w i th – w it h t e c h n o lo g y t h e r e m a y b e a ll k i n d s o f
10

ways.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n I w a s a s k in g h e r q u e s t io n s a b o u t w h a t th e y
d o a t s o m e s t a g e I a ls o w a n t e d t o s a y w e l l s h e w a s s a y i n g a c l ie n t w i ll
r e q u e s t c a s h o f a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o n t h e p a r ti c u la r d a y b u t s h e w i ll n o t
m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r t h e d e l iv e r y o f t h a t c a s h t o t h e c l ie n t u n t il th e
c li e n t h a s tr a n s f e r r e d m o n e y …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n to h e r a c c o u n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w h e n y o u tr a n s f e r e l e c tr o n ic a l ly th a t m ig h t

d e p e n d o n i f th e r e is a d e fi n i t io n o f tr a n s f e r a n d o f m o n e y s o m e w h e r e I
g u e s s i t is n o t c a s h t h a t m o v e s . I t is i n f o r m a t io n i s m o v e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e b a n k w il l u n d e r s t a n d th a t f r o m n o w o n t h is

m o n e y w h i c h b e lo n g e d t o A n o w b e l o n g s t o B . S o th a t t h e q u e s t io n

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w o u ld b e w h e t h e r w h e n t h e y – th e r e is a t r a n s fe r l ik e t h a t o n e c a n t a lk
o f a b o u t – o f a d e p o s i t o f m o n e y o r n o t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e I h a v e n o t l o o k e d a t v a r io u s d e f i n i ti o n s s o
– b u t I a m ju s t r a is in g i t b e c a u s e i t m a y a r i s e i n r e g a r d to t h i s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a l s o b e c a u s e I h a d w o n d e r e d a t t h e ti m e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h o u g h t w e l l m a y b e i t m ig h t n o t a r is e . I t m ig h t
10

b e m y i g n o r a n c e o f t e c h n o lo g y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a in ly n o t C h a ir w it h r e s p e c t. If I m a y j u s t
r e s p o n d i n t h e fo ll o w i n g w a y.

W h a t is p e c u l ia r a b o u t t h e tr a d it i o n a l

c a s h in tr a n s i t b u s in e s s t h a t I w a s d e b a ti n g w i t h Ms Vi l jo e n is t h a t
t h e r e is n o d e p o s it i n t o a n a c c o u n t o f t h e c a s h in tr a n s i t b u s in e s s . It
g o e s a n d i t l i te r a ll y m o v e s m o n e y b e t w e e n a c li e n t a n d i ts b a n k . T h e
bank…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p h y s ic a l ly.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P h y s ic a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a t h is is …
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t t a k e s th a t – t h o s e h a r d n o te s a n d c o i n s i f

t h e y a r e e v e r i n t e r e s te d i n c o i n s a n d i t t a k e s i t fr o m l o c a ti o n A t o
lo c a ti o n B o r th e r e v e r s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is li k e S B V.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s li k e S B V i n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In d e e d .

A n d C h a ir w i t h r e s p e c t t h a t is a n

i m p o r t a n t a n a l o g y b e c a u s e t h e a r r a n g e m e n t o f M s V Il jo e n ’s b u s i n e s s
t h a t w e h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s i n g t o d a y p u t s h e r i n n o d i ff e r e n t p o s i ti o n to
t h e f o u r b ig b a n k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e c a u s e t h e b a n k s c a n r e c e i v e d e p o s i ts b y

E F T a n d t h e y c a n g iv e c a s h t o th e i r c l ie n t u s i n g S B V.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s t a n d A M F S ’s b u s in e s s m o d e l i t s i ts
10

in e x a c tl y t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t r e c e i v e s d e p o s i t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a tr a n s a c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h e n a b l e s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : El e c tr o n i c a ll y i n t h e m a i n a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To r e c e i v e t h e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i t g e ts t h e c a s h fr o m S B V b u t u s e s i ts
o w n v e h ic l e s to t h e n d e li v e r t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I t is n o t I w a n t t o s u b m i t a n d h a v e y o u r

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
c o m m e n t M s Vi l jo e n in t h e p o s i t io n o f t h e t r a d it i o n a l c a s h in t r a n s i t
b u s i n e s s w i t h w h o m n o d e p o s i ts a r e b e i n g m a d e a n d n o tr a n s a c ti o n s
a r e b e i n g e n te r e d to , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: I do yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms Vi lj o e n t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t ju s t t o c o m p le t e w h a t m y q u e r y o n y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g . W h e n th e r e i s a tr a n s f e r fr o m o n e a c c o u n t t o a n o t h e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f d i ff e r e n t .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P e o p le – e n t i ti e s n o a c t u a l tr a n s f e r o f c a s h h a p p e n s
as such?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s j u s t – it is j u s t . .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is c r e d i ts a n d d e b i ts a g a in s t a c c o u n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s c r e d i ts j a c r e d i ts a n d d e b i ts .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a ll .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t f o r a l l i n t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s it i s c o n s id e r e d t h a t
m o n e y h a s m o v e d fr o m o n e a c c o u n t in t o a n o t h e r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Indeed.

A n d C h a ir i f I m a y i n t h a t r e s p e c t

t h e r e a r e tr a n s a c ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h a t I m u s t b e c le a r o n is th e y w o u l d n o t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
c o n s ti t u te d e p o s i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e s e n s e t h a t t h e B a n k s A c t is c o n c e r n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n l e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e l a ti o n s h i p is a s a n d I w i ll d e s c r ib e i t n o w
in s i m p li f ie d t e r m s i f I m a y ?
d e p o s it w i th E n t i ty B .
10

E n t i ty A o r p e r s o n A o n l y e n g a g e s i n a

I f t h e r e is a tr a n s f e r o f f u n d s a n d t h e r e is a n

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h o s e t w o e n ti t ie s t h a t t h a t a m o u n t w i ll b e r e p a i d
back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To p e r s o n A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P u r s u a n t to c e r t a i n a s p e c ts o f t h e a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Arrangements.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y b e in t e r e s t , m a y b e n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

20

M a y b e o v e r t i m e b u t j u s t tr a n s a c ti o n s o f E F T

n a t u r e b e t w e e n b u s in e s s e s a r e n o t d e p o s i t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e y a r e d e p o s i t s w h e n y o u a r e a c ti n g l ik e a

bank.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e h o l d i n g t h e m o n e y o f s o m e o n e .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p u r s u a n t to a r r a n g e m e n ts y o u m a k e g i v i n g
t h a t b a c k to t h e m a s w h e n t h e y r e q u i r e it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d i t is t h a t f e a t u r e o f A M F S t h a t I h a v e

s u g g e s t e d t o M s Vil jo e n c o n s t i tu t e s t h e b u s in e s s o f a b a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w i th in t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e d e fi n it i o n o f d e p o s i t
m u s t I a p p r o a c h t h i s d e f in i ti o n o n th e b a s is t h a t in t h e c o n t e x t o f M s
Vi lj o e n ’s b u s i n e s s d e p o s i t i n c lu d e s tr a n s fe r b y h e r c l i e n ts o f m o n e y i n to
10

h e r a c c o u n t?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: And would you know whether that is based on the act
o r ju s t o n t h e p r a c tic e a n d r e a li ty a n d e v e r y o n e – e v e r y o n e ’s
u n d e r s t a n d in g w h o u n d e r s t a n d s t e c h n o lo g y ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir c e r t a i n ly d e p o s i t a s w e r e a d i t t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M e a n s a n a m o u n t o f m o n e y p a i d b y o n e p e r s o n
t o a n o t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e A c t d o e s n o t s p e c i f y t h e m e th o d o f

payment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H is t o r i c a ll y i t m a y h a v e b e e n c h e q u e s , e a r l ie r
t h a n th a t c a s h o r e v e n e a r li e r th a n t h a t s o m e o th e r m a t t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t r e s is ti v e .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t – i n d e e d – in d e e d , b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e e s s e n c e o f t h e a r r a n g e m e n t I w o u l d s u b mi t
is th a t o n e p e r s o n p a y s t o a n o t h e r p e r s o n t h r o u g h w h a te v e r m e a n s a n
a m o u n t o f m o n e y t h a t i s g o i n g to b e r e p a i d b a c k to t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O n c e r ta i n c o n d i ti o n s a n d t e r m s .

M s Vi lj o e n

t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f th a t is t h a t i f i n d e e d A M F S w a s c o n d u c t i n g t h e
b u s i n e s s o f t h e b a n k it w o u l d h a v e t o b e r e g is t e r e d a s a b a n k , a r e y o u
10

aware of that?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y w e ll t h e B a n k s A c t w e d o n o t n e e d t o g o
in t o th e p r o v is io n s b u t i t r e q u ir e s a n y e n t i ty d o i n g th a t r e c e i v i n g
d e p o s it s a n d e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e y a r e r e p a i d s u b j e c t t o w h a t e v e r t e r m s
a r e a g r e e d b e t w e e n th e e n t i ti e s h a v e t o b e r e g i s t e r e d . B u t I t a k e i t y o u
w e r e n o t a w a r e o f t h a t u n ti l n o w ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : U n ti l th r e e s e c o n d s a g o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t. A n d th e A c t g o e s f u r t h e r a n d m a k e s i t

c le a r t h a t c o n d u c ti n g t h e b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k w i th o u t r e g is tr a ti o n is a
20

c r i m i n a l o ff e n c e .

It a l s o p r o v i d e s t h a t c o n d u c ti n g t h e b u s in e s s o f a

b a n k w it h o u t r e g i s tr a t io n m a y r e s u l t i n a ll o f t h e p r o c e e d s th a t w e r e
obtained in the course of that business being required to be repaid,
were you aware of those provisions?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

M s Vil jo e n I w o u ld th e n lik e to m o v e j u s t t o

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w h a t w e c a n m a k e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o th e m o n ie s fr o m
K o r e n e k e . A s I h a v e i t a n d I a m p u t t in g t h is to y o u f o r y o u r c o m m e n t i f
t h e r e is a n y p a r t o f m y s u m m a r y th a t y o u d is a g r e e w i t h . Yo u r e v i d e n c e
a s I h a v e i t is th a t y o u w e r e m is le d b y M s M a r k i d e s t h a t a n a m o u n t o f
R 9 m i ll io n th a t w a s p a i d to y o u c a m e fr o m h i m , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly e s t a b li s h e d th a t

t h e y d id n o t c o m e fr o m h i m , c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e y c a m e fr o m a b u s i n e s s c a l le d

K o r e n e k e Tr a d i n g a n d P r o j e c t C C , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I w o u ld j u s t lik e t o g o a t t h i s p o i n t t o t h e
d i a g r a m t h a t I m e n t io n e d e a r l ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vil j o e n t h is is n o t a d i a g r a m t h a t y o u h a v e
p r e p a r e d i t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d b y t h e c o m m is s i o n a n d i t s i m p ly is a f lo w
o f fu n d s t o r e p r e s e n t g r a p h ic a l ly h o w th e m o n e y a r r iv e d i n K o r e n e k e
a n d e n d e d u p i n y o u a n d i f t h e r e is a n y a s p e c t o f i t t h a t y o u d is a g r e e
20

w i t h y o u m u s t p le a s e le t u s k n o w. Yo u w i ll fi n d i t i n y o u r b u n d l e r i g h t
a t t h e e n d a t p a g e 1 0 5 a n d it w il l a ls o b e r e fl e c t e d o n th e s c r e e n s f o r
e v e r y o n e ’s b e n e f i t .

I r e i te r a t e a g a in t h is is n o t i n f o r m a ti o n o f w h ic h

y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e i t is o u r a b i li ty j u s t to t r a c k t h is s to r y
t o g e th e r s o t h a t i t m a k e s s e n s e i n th e c o n te x t o f th e p r e v i o u s t h a t h a s
b e e n r e c e iv e d .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d t h e d ia g r a m is a t w h a t p a g e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t 1 0 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: 105.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f D D 9 . M s Vil j o e n y o u w i ll …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l i d e n t if y A M F S b e n e a t h K o r e n e k e .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : In t h e m i d d l e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I n t h e m i d d l e r i g h t?

T h a t is t h e o n ly p a r t o f

t h is t h a t y o u c o u l d s p e a k t o a n d I w i ll t a k e y o u t o in a m o m e n t .
10

But

C h a ir t h is i s j u s t a f u r th e r e x t e n s i o n o f t h e d i a g r a m w e lo o k e d o n o n
S a t u r d a y b e c a u s e o n S a tu r d a y w e g o t u p t o A M F S in th e e v i d e n c e o f
M s Tl a ts a n a .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o w h a t w e h a v e d o n e i s w e h a v e a d d e d a
f e w f u r th e r li n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s th e e v i d e n c e is p r o g r e s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e fe l t i t a p p r o p r ia t e o n l y t o s to p a t t h e p o i n t

20

o f M s T la t s a n a ’s e v i d e n c e o n S a t u r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d n o w h a v i n g t h e b e n e fi t o f M s Vi lj o e n ’s

e v i d e n c e w e c o n t in u e w i th t h o s e li n e s fu r t h e r d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o j u s t t o o r i e n t a te y o u M s Vi lj o e n y o u h a v e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
g o t a d i a g r a m o n t h e t o p le f t r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t.
A n d y o u h a v e g o t r e p r e s e n t e d b y r e d l in e s o n th a t p a g e t h e m o n i e s t h a t
c o m e o u t o f t h e N o r t h W e s t G o v e r n m e n t , d o y o u s e e t h a t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I s e e i t y e s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w il l s e e t h a t s o m e ti m e s t h e m o n e y o u t
o f th e N o r th W e s t g o e s to S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s w h i c h is i n th e t o p
r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r.
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Corner got it.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

A n d f r o m S o u t h A fr ic a n Ex p r e s s i t g o e s in t o

K o r e n e k e , y o u s e e t h a t a m o u n t o f R 3 1 m i ll io n .
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I do yes.
O r it g o e s d i r e c t ly fr o m t h e N o r t h W e s t

G o v e r n m e n t i n t o K o r e n e k e a n d t h a t is t h e li n e r e p r e s e n ti n g 2 . 6 0 6 3 3 5
m il li o n , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I s e e th a t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t is a l l e v i d e n c e t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d

p r e v i o u s ly i n t h e c o m m i s s io n . A t th e n s i ts i n K o r e n e k e a b o u t 5 1 m il li o n
in t o ta l a n d fr o m K o r e n e k e i t is d i s tr i b u t e d t o v a r i o u s e n t it i e s . I f I w o r k
fr o m t h e l e f t o f th e p a g e th e r e is a p a y m e n t t o a n e n ti ty c a ll e d E ls k a k o l
20

t h e n a p a y m e n t f o r w h a t is d e s c r i b e d a s m a n a g e m e n t c o n s u l ti n g . T h e n
a p a y m e n t t o a n i n d iv id u a l r e fe r r e d a s M r P a p i t a s a n d t h e n w e h a v e t h e
p a y m e n t o f R 9 m il li o n t o A M F S , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I s e e th a t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e h a s c o n f ir m e d t h a t th o s e

f u n d s w e r e r e c e iv e d b y K o r e n e k e .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h is i s t h e p a r t th a t y o u c a n s p e a k t o
is th e li n e i n g r e e n g o i n g d o w n fr o m t h a t.

T h a t is a p a y m e n t o n 9

m il li o n a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d it b e i n g m a d e to M r M a r k id e s , c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l to b e a b s o l u t e ly a c c u r a t e i t i s a n a m o u n t
s li g h t ly le s s th a n 9 m il li o n b e c a u s e y o u t o o k o ff a fe e .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s I w o u ld h a v e ta k e n o ff m y f e e y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

I t is a s m a l l b i t l e s s t h a n t h a t a n d t h e n t h e

q u e s t io n i s w h e r e d o e s i t g o fr o m t h e r e a n d a ll t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e
t o o ff e r i n t h a t r e g a r d a r e t h o s e d e l iv e r y s li p s t h a t y o u r e c e i v e fr o m M s
Z o g b y is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank you.

W e w il l c o n t in u e C h a ir w i t h t h e

N e o s o lu t io n s li n e s a f t e r th e e v i d e n c e o n T h u r s d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t th a t j u s t a s s is ts t o g r a p h ic a lly tr a c k t h e

fl o w o f f u n d s in t h is c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f t h a t d i a g r a m c o r r e c tl y a n d a c c u r a te ly r e f l e c ts
20

t h e fl o w i t l o o k s l ik e s o m e b o d y a t S A E x p r e s s w o u l d c a u s e S A E x p r e s s
t o w e l l w o u l d c a u s e m o n e y t o g o fr o m S A E x p r e s s to K o r e n e k e v a r i o u s
s t o p s o n th e w a y a n d t h e n h e u l ti m a t e l y m e e t s i t s o m e w h e r e l a te r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: So…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e c a u s e s it t o u l t i m a te ly g o t o h is a c c o u n t b u t i t
is a lo n g r o u n d a b o u t …
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R o u t e b u t u l ti m a t e ly i t e n d s w i t h h i m .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h a t is t h e f o r c e o f s o m e o f th e q u e s t io n s
I p u t to M s Vil j o e n a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV

K AT E

HOFMEYR:

Because

rendering

u n l a w fu ll y

obtained

p r o c e e d s i n to c a s h r e a l ly d o e s s to p t h e tr a i l o ft e n b e c a u s e th e n y o u d o
10

n o t h a v e tr a n s a c t i o n s in b a n k a c c o u n t s t h a t c a n b e tr a c k e d . A n d i t is
w h y I s u g g e s te d t o Ms Vi lj o e n t h a t a n y b u s i n e s s e s in v o lv e d i n c a s h
s h o u l d b e o n h i g h a le r t f o r t h e ir p o s s i b l e i n v o lv e m e n t in t h e fa c i li t a t i o n
o f m o n e y la u n d e r in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u c h a n g e – y o u e n g a g e i n a s e r i e s
o f tr a n s a c ti o n s t o h id e i n a s e n s e th e o r i g i n a t io n o f t h e f u n d s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja and how they…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e ir u l ti m a t e e n d p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s Vi lj o e n ju s t t o r e t u r n to y o u w e e s t a b l is h e d
fr o m y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e s u b s e q u e n tl y le a r n t t h a t th o s e f u n d s
w e r e d e p o s i te d to y o u b y a n e n t it y c a l le d K o r e n e k e , c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Correct yes.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r e v id e n c e a ls o is t h a t y o u n e v e r v e t te d
Koreneke as a client, correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t is t h a t t h e r e w a s a
b u s i n e s s tr a n s a c t i o n b e t w e e n A M F S a n d K o r e n e k e w i t h o u t a n y v e t ti n g
b e e n d o n e o f th a t c l i e n t , c o r r e c t ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: Also without m y knowledge but yes correct.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r e v id e n c e is t h a t y o u d i d n o n e th e l e s s
d e li v e r R 9 m il li o n in c a s h le s s y o u r f e e to w h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d t o b e M r
10

M a r k i d e s ’ a p p o i n t e d p r e m i s e s , c o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d y o u a ls o – t h e o n ly k n o w l e d g e y o u h a v e

a ft e r t h a t p o i n t a r e th e d e l iv e r y s li p s p r o v i d e d b y M s Zo g b y is t h a t
correct?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s V ilj o e n th o s e a r e t h e e s s e n c e
o f th e s u b m is s i o n s th a t – a t l e a s t t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t I w a n t e d t o a s k o f
y o u t o d a y. C h a i r th e r e a r e o r t w o c o n c l u d in g s u b m is s i o n s I p r o p o s e t o
m a k e ju s t to i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e u p s h o t o f M s Vi l jo e n ’s e v i d e n c e a n d i t is
20

a l o o k d o w n t h e li n e t o th e p o s s i b le ty p e s o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t th e c o m m i s s i o n m a y c o n s i d e r m a k i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f I m a y ju s t t a k e a m o m e n t o n t h a t ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja do that.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M s Vi lj o e n o f c o u r s e i f t h e r e is a n y a s p e c t
o f w h a t I s a y t h a t y o u w a n t t o o ff e r c o m m e n t o n a f te r w a r d s y o u w il l b e
g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o t h a t . C h a ir th e c o n c e r n a r is in g I s u b m i t f r o m
t h e n a t u r e o f t h e A M F S b u s i n e s s i s t h a t i t r e a ll y w a s a c t in g a s a b a n k
in th e p u r s u i t o f i ts w o r k .

B u t a b a n k t h a t w a s n o t r e g u l a te d b y t h e

B a n k s A c t a t t h e t i m e a n d i f t h e r e a r e o t h e r s o p e r a ti n g in a s i m i la r w a y
it

w i ll

be

our

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

in

due

course

that

one

of

th e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th a t t h is c o m m i s s i o n c o n s i d e r s m a k i n g is t h a t th e
e n t i ti e s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r r e g u l a ti o n o f t h e B a n k s A c t t h a t b e in g th e
10

R e s e r v e B a n k a n d t h e R e g i s t r a r o f b a n k s o r i n d e e d t h e FI C A A c t, t h e
Fi n a n c i a l In t e l li g e n c e C e n tr e b e m a n d a t e d t o in v e s ti g a t e t h e s e ty p e o f
b u s i n e s s e s in c l o s e r d e t a il . B e c a u s e w h a t w e h a v e e s t a b lis h e d t h r o u g h
t h is e v id e n c e is t h a t t h e r e w a s a n o p e r a ti o n c a r r y i n g a t i t s p e a k m o r e
t h a n h a l f a b i ll i o n r a n d s o f f u n d s .

A n d i f t h is c o m m i s s i o n is t o h a v e

s o m e c h a n c e o f e s t a b li s h in g w h e r e s o m e o f t h e p u b l ic fu n d s t h a t w e
k n o w w e r e u n la w f u l ly o b ta in e d e n d e d u p i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t th e s e t y p e s
o f e n ti t i e s n e e d t o b e i n v e s ti g a te d f u r th e r. I f t h e r e is a w a y t o c h e c k
w h e r e p u b li c fu n d s p u r s u a n t t o s t a t e c a p t u r e c o r r u p t i o n a n d fr a u d w e n t
it m a y w e ll b e i t w i ll b e o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t th e s e o v e r s i g h t b o d ie s
20

n e e d t o l o o k in t o t h e s e ty p e s o f e n ti t ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i t w a s f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t w e a s k e d M s
Vi lj o e n a t t h e o u ts e t w h e t h e r s h e k n e w o f o th e r b u s in e s s e s th a t w e r e
e n g a g e d i n a s i m i la r ty p e o f b u s i n e s s m o d e l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H e r a n s w e r i n fa i r n e s s t o h e r w a s s h e k n o w s

t h a t t h e i n d u s tr y o f c a s h i n tr a n s i t is q u i t e b i g b u t t h r o u g h th e
q u e s t io n s t o d a y i t i s m y s u b m is s i o n t h a t w e h a v e e s t a b l is h e d t h a t t h e
b u s i n e s s w a s n o t a tr a d i ti o n a l c a s h i n tr a n s i t b u s in e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t a t l e a s t R u s ti n S t o n e w e h a v e a s h e r

e v i d e n c e o p e r a t e d i n a s i m il a r m a n n e r.

M s Vil jo e n a r e y o u a w a r e

w h e t h e r R u s ti c S t o n e c o n t i n u e s t o o p e r a t e ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No they closed down.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y o th e r s i n th e i n d u s tr y
t h a t o p e r a te o n t h e s a m e b u s i n e s s m o d e l a s m a t t e r s s t a n d c u r r e n tl y ?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN:

The person that bought the business from

me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t a n d y o u s o l d t h a t o u t a t t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 7 ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o t h a t b u s i n e s s a c t u a ll y d o e s c o n t in u e t o

operate does it?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : I d o n o t k n o w if i t o p e r a te s t h e s a m e w a y I
20

did.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t w a s a s a l e o f b u s i n e s s tr a n s a c ti o n s o w e
c o u l d i n v e s t ig a te t h a t f u r th e r ?
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i f t h e b u s i n e s s th e y r u n o r t h e b u s in e s s e s th a t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
t h e y c o n d u c t f a l l w i t h i n t h e d e fi n it i o n o f t h e b u s in e s s o f a b a n k .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d m e a n t h e B a n k s A c t a p p l ie s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f t h e B a n k s A c t a p p li e s I g u e s s w o u ld m e a n t h a t
t h e r e g u l a t o r y b o d i e s c o u l d – c o u l d m o v e i n a n d i n v e s ti g a te ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d th e y h a v e e x t e n s iv e p o w e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h e w h o l e p o in t a b o u t b a n k r e g u la t io n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t i t is d o n e p u r s u a n t t o e x tr e m e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig o r o u s p r o c e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u c a n n o t o p e r a te t h e b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k

la w fu ll y i n t h is c o u n tr y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h o u t b e in g r e g i s t e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h t h e R e s e r v e B a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e k n o w a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t t h a t t h e r e a r e
v e r y f e w e n ti ti e s w h o a r e i n fa c t r e g i s t e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d C h a ir I w il l n o t t a k e y o u th r o u g h a l l t h e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
p r o v i s i o n s n o w b u t th e B a n k s A c t h a s d e t a i le d i n v e s t ig a ti v e p r o c e d u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r in s p e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n e v e r t h e r e i s a s u s p ic i o n t h a t a b u s i n e s s
is o p e r a t in g a s a b a n k w i th o u t b e i n g r e g is t e r e d a s s u c h t h e y c a n d o t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n , th e y c a n t a k e f u r t h e r s te p s i n c l u d i n g r e q u ir i n g r e fu n d s t o
t h o s e w h o h a v e d e p o s i t e d w i t h t h e i n s t it u ti o n s a n d t h e n i n t h e
b a c k g r o u n d o f a l l o f th a t th e r e a r e t h e c r i m in a l p r o c e s s e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s s o c ia t e d w i th t h a t c o n d u c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m c o n c e r n e d th a t i t m a y b e th a t s u c h r e g u l a t o r y

b o d ie s s h o u l d c o n s i d e r l o o k i n g i n t o s u c h b u s i n e s s e s w i th o u t h a v i n g t o
wait for the…
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m m i s s io n t o fi n i s h i ts w o r k b e c a u s e i t m a y w e ll b e
t h a t th e r e c o u l d b e s e r io u s tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t a r e i ll e g a l .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e t h e – t h e m o n e y y o u k n o w m i g h t n o t b e tr a c e d
20

a ft e r s o m e t i m e a n d – a n d t h e t a x p a y e r a n d o th e r p e r s o n s g e t
p r e j u d ic e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

B y b u s i n e s s e s w h o c o n d u c t th e b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k

w i t h o u t b e in g r e g is t e r e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON: As a bank.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th a t r e g a r d m y s u b m is s io n is t h a t t h e r e h a v e
b e e n o n g o i n g e n g a g e m e n ts b e t w e e n t h i s c o m m i s s i o n a n d b o th t h e
Reserve Bank.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e Fi n a n c i a l I n te ll ig e n c e …
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m o n e y y o u k n o w m i g h t n o t b e t r a c e d a f te r s o m e
10

ti m e a n d – a n d th e ta x p a y e r a n d o t h e r p e r s o n s g e t p r e j u d ic e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

B y b u s i n e s s e s w h o c o n d u c t th e b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k

w i t h o u t b e in g r e g is t e r e d .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: As a bank.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th a t r e g a r d m y s u b m is s io n is t h a t t h e r e h a v e
b e e n o n g o i n g e n g a g e m e n ts b e t w e e n t h i s c o m m i s s i o n a n d b o th t h e
Reserve Bank.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e Fi n a n c i a l I n te ll ig e n c e C e n tr e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y h a v e c e r ta i n l y a l w a y s b e e n a v a i la b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n th e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t o a s s is t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s th e y m u s t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s o r g a n s o f s t a te t h e r e g u la t io n s r e q u ir e th e m
to do so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t m a y b e a p r o fi t a b l e r o u t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : t o r a i s e w i t h th e m e v e n in t h e i n t e r i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a s y o u p o i n t o u t C h a ir w i t h r e s p e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fir m ly w it h in t h e ir m a n d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y e s , y e s . N o , n o th a t is w h a t I t h i n k th a t i t w il l b e
n e c e s s a r y t o a l e r t th e m s o t h a t – b e c a u s e if t h e r e a r e r e g u l a t o r y b o d i e s
t h e y e n t i tl e d in d e e d th e y a r e u n d e r a d u ty i f t h e y b e c o m e a w a r e o f
in f o r m a ti o n th a t s u g g e s t t h a t s o m e b o d y m a y b e i n b r e a c h o r i n
c o n tr a v e n ti o n o f t h e B a n k s A c t t o ta k e t h e n e c e s s a r y s t e p s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M s Vil j o e n w e r e t h e r e a n y

comments you wanted to make in response?
MS KALANDRA VILJOEN: No thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Ms Vi lj o e n .
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l e a v e i t a t t h a t fo r n o w. S h o u l d th e n e e d a r is e t o
a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k y o u w il l b e c o n t a c t e d b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h
and you are excused.
M S K A L A N D R A V I L J O E N : T h a n k y o u fo r y o u r ti m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f I m a y s u g g e s t w e h a v e a n e w w i tn e s s
a n d t h e r e i s a b i t o f a c h a n g e o v e r t h a t n e e d s t o ta k e p l a c e w o u ld i t b e
a p p r o p r i a t e t o ta k e a fiv e m i n u t e b r e a k f o r t h a t p u r p o s e ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s w e w i ll ta k e a f iv e m i n u te s b r e a k a n d w e w il l

resume at quarter to three.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n Ms S e p t e m b e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G o o d a ft e r n o o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s w e a r e C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s p r o c e e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a i r i f I m a y b e g in t h e e v i d e n c e

t h a t i s t o b e l e d t h r o u g h t h i s w it n e s s d e a l s w i t h a d i ff e r e n t fo c u s w it h in
t h is p a r t ic u l a r a v i a t i o n s tr e a m . In p a r t ic u l a r i t is t h e e v i d e n c e o f a – a n
employee

of

S o u th

A f r ic a n

Ex p r e s s .

Her

evidence

d e a ls

with

p a r t ic u l a r ly th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f J e t A 1 F u e l b y S o u t h A fr i c a n E x p r e s s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w h ic h w a s b o r n e o u t o f th e o p e r a ti o n a l n e e d o f S o u th A fr ic a n E x p r e s s
a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r t h e P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t .
T h r o u g h t h i s e v id e n c e C h a ir c e r ta i n q u e s t io n s w il l b e r a is e d .
T h e fir s t q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r o r n o t a n y p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s
w e r e in f a c t f o l l o w e d f o r t h e s u p p ly o f je t f u e l t o P i la n e s b e r g A ir p o r t
a n d f o r g i v e m e C h a ir I a m – it i s J e t A 1 F u e l f o r t h e r e c o r d b u t I m a y
ju s t in t e r c h a n g e a b ly u s e i t a s j e t f u e l .
T h e n e x t q u e s t io n w h ic h is a b i t m o r e o f a b r o a d e r o n e is
whether or not proper procurement processes were observed when
10

S o u th A f r ic a n E x p r e s s c o n c lu d e d c o n tr a c t u a l a r r a n g e m e n t s w i t h a
p a r t ic u l a r e n ti ty c a l le d E M L E n g i n e e r s a n d C o n s tr u c ti o n tr a d in g a s E M L
E n e r g y a n d c e r t a i n ID C f u n d in g th a t w a s r e l a te d t o t h a t t r a n s a c t io n a n d
la s t ly C h a ir t h e o t h e r m a i n q u e s t io n t h a t w o u l d b e p la c e d b e f o r e t h i s
C o m m i s s i o n is w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e w e r e a n y f r a u d u l e n t o r c o r r u p t
a c ti v i ti e s in r e la t io n to t h e s e p a r ti c u la r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s .
H a v i n g s a id th a t C h a ir t h e b u n d l e b e f o r e y o u i s m a r k e d D D 1 2
a n d w i th y o u r l e a v e i f I c o u ld j u s t g iv e s o m e c la r i ty t o w h a t e x a c t ly is
c o n ta in e d i n th is b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

U n d e r – t h e r e a r e t h r e e ta b s t o th e

bundle.

U n d e r t h e f ir s t ta b C h a i r w e w ill f in d th e a ff i d a v i t fo r t h i s

witness.

U n d e r t h e s e c o n d t a b C h a ir a r e tw o d o c u m e n ts in p a r t ic u l a r

w h ic h r e la t e t o t h is w i t n e s s ’ b u n d l e b u t it i s j u s t m o r e c o m p r e h e n s iv e t o
w h a t w a s a c t u a ll y i n c l u d e d i n t h e ir a n d u n d e r t h e t h ir d b u n d l e i s a n
a ffi d a v i t b y a M r G a v i n Fo u r ie w h o w il l n o t b e c a ll e d t o g i v e e v id e n c e

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t o d a y b u t w e s u b m i t t h a t h is a ff id a v i t w h i c h i n c l u d e s s o m e a n n e x u r e s
b e t e n d e r e d a n d p l a c e d b e f o r e t h i s – t h is C o m m i s s i o n a s e v id e n c e .
During

th e

evidence

of

t h is

w it n e s s

the

a ffi d a v i t

of

M r G a v i n Fo u r ie w i ll c e r ta i n ly b e l o o k e d t o – to c o r r o b o r a t e o r to
s u p p o r t c e r t a i n a l le g a ti o n s a n d a v e r s i o n t h a t is t e n d e r e d b y th is
witness.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

U n l e s s C h a ir h a s a n y t h i n g e l s e fo r

m e t o a d d r e s s I t h e n r e q u e s t t h a t t h e o a th b e a d m in is t e r e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e l e v e r a r c h fil e c o n t a i n in g t h e s t a t e m e n t o r

a ffi d a v i t o f M s E s t e ll e L o o c k a n d a n n e x u r e s w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T
D D 1 2 . Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

Yo u m a y a d m in is t e r t h e o a th o r

a ffir m a t i o n t o t h e w i tn e s s .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : E s te ll e L o o c k .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
20

MS ESTELL E LOOCK: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l
g iv e w i ll b e th e t r u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h i f s o

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p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e lp m e G o d .
MS E STELL E LOOCK: So help me God.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : ( d u l y s w or n , s t a t e s )
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ms L o o c k – i f I m a y – c o u ld I a s k y o u
t o t u r n t o p a g e 1 o f t h e b u n d le b e f o r e y o u p le a s e ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e
t h is d o c u m e n t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s t h is is m y a ff id a v i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And can I ask you to turn to page 14
– 1 - 4 ? W h o s e s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s w h e r e d e p o n e n t is m a r k e d ?
10

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so it is correct then that you

d e p o s e d t o t h is a ff id a v i t o n 2 2 M a y 2 0 1 9 b e f o r e a C o m m i s s i o n e r o f
O a th s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 9 8

p l e a s e ? I s it c o r r e c t th a t t h i s p a r tic u la r p a g e w a s n o t i n c lu d e d a s p a r t
o f y o u r a ffi d a v it w h e n y o u d e p o s e d t o it b u t th a t y o u h a v e s i n c e h a d a n
o p p o r t u n i ty to h a v e a l o o k a t i t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

Is it true that you are

c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d b y S o u t h A fr ic a n E x p r e s s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s I a m C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d o y o u h o l d ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A ir p o r t ’s C o o r d i n a t o r fo r S A E x p r e s s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n d id y o u f ir s t j o in S A E x p r e s s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
Ms Loock?
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: I joined on 8 November 2000.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d i d y o u h o l d w h e n
y o u j o i n e d t h e o r g a n is a ti o n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I s t a r te d o ff a s a c a b i n c r e w m e m b e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n w e r e y o u a p p o i n te d t o t h e

p o s i t o n o f A ir p o r t ’s C o o r d i n a to r ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

It was around 2009 – apologies – around

2 0 0 8 /2 0 0 9 t h a t I w a s a p p o in t e d y e s .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u p r e s e n t

t o d a y is it c o r r e c t t h a t th o s e – th a t y o u r e v id e n c e c o n c e r n s e v e n ts t h a t
t o o k p la c e d u r i n g 2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e ll p r e d o m i n a n t ly d u r i n g 2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : 2 0 1 7 - th a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d d u r in g t h a t y e a r o r d u r i n g t h e

ti m e p e r i o d o f 2 0 1 7 w h o w e r e y o u r e p o r ti n g t o a s y o u r i m m e d i a te
report?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : M y i m m e d ia t e r e p o r t w a s t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r
20

f o r O p e r a ti o n s w h ic h w a s M r D a v e A ll e n b y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H o w w o u l d y o u d e s c r ib e y o u r w o r k i n g
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M r A ll e n b y ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I h a d a g o o d r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h M r A l le n b y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W o u ld y o u s a y t h a t h e tr u s t e d y o u r

p r o f e s s i o n a l a b i li t ie s ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s I c a n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And how long did you report to him?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I f m y m e m o r y is c o r r e c t I r e p o r t e d t o h i m a b o u t
three to four years.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y a n d is h e s til l w i t h S A E x p r e s s ?
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: No. He has gone on pension.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h e n w a s th a t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e e n d o f l a s t y e a r a r o u n d – I th i n k i t is

S e p te m b e r – i f I c a n r e f e r t o m y a ff id a v i t .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s y o u a r e w e lc o m e .

I t is a c t u a l ly

a t p a r a g r a p h 3 o n p a g e 1 y o u d o in f o r m t h a t Mr A ll e n b y r e ti r e d a r o u n d
S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 8 .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t – S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 y e s , j a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

S o b y t h e ti m e o f t h e

y e a r 2 0 1 7 h o w l o n g a p p r o x i m a te ly w e r e y o u i n t h e r o l e o f A ir p o r t ’s
C o o r d in a to r ?
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Around about eight years.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s , o k a y.

B e f o r e w e g e t in t o w h a t

e x a c tl y y o u r r o l e e n t a i le d d u r i n g o u r c o n s u l t a ti o n C h a ir s h e g a v e s o m e
20

r e a l ly u s e f u l b a c k g r o u n d t o s e t c o n te x t fo r h e r p o s it i o n w h ic h is
necessary to explore.

M s L o o c k t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t u s e r d e p a r t m e n ts

w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s a s I u n d e r s ta n d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o c a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n to t h e
C h a ir t h e d i ff e r e n t u s e r d e p a r t m e n ts w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s ?

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M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A lr i g h t . I f I c a n e x p l a i n w e h a v e m a i n u n i ts a n d
t h e n – s o r r y – a p o lo g ie s C h a ir. W e h a d m a i n u n it s a n d t h e n t h e r e w e r e
sub – sub …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o t h in k th e m i c i s c l o s e e n o u g h . S o y o u m i g h t n o t
need to come closer to it.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N e e d to c o m e f o r w a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, just relax and then speak.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : O k a y. S o w e h a v e m a in s e c t i o n s i n o u r i n d u s tr y
a n d t h e n t h e r e a r e s u b s e c ti o n s u n d e r n e a t h t h o s e a n d i f y o u w a n t m e t o
10

I c a n e x p l a in t h o s e t o y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e if y o u m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t ju s t h a v e t o r a is e y o u r v o i c e a l i tt l e b i t b u t
w i t h o u t g o in g to c l o s e to t h e m ic o k a y a lr i g h t. C o n t in u e .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

A lr ig h t .

W e h a v e a n O p e r a t io n s D e p a r t m e n t

w h ic h c o n ta i n Fl i g h t O p e r a ti o n s . T h a t i s t h e f li g h t d e c k a n d t h e c a b i n
c r e w.

W e h a v e a n A ir p o r t O p e r a ti o n s S e c t io n w h i c h is – c o n t a i n s

m o s t ly t h e s t a ti o n s .

T h e O C C D e p a r t m e n t – i t s t a n d s f o r O p e r a ti o n s

C o n tr o l C e n tr e .
T h a t is m o r e f o r t h e a ir c r a f t m o v e m e n ts a n d d e p l o y m e n t o f
20

fl ig h ts a n d t h e R a m p S e r v ic e s a l s o f e l l u n d e r O p e r a t io n s a n d th e n th e r e
w a s a Tr a in i n g a n d P l a n n i n g S e c ti o n u n d e r t h e O p e r a ti o n s D e p a r t m e n t.
W e h a d a F in a n c e S e c t i o n .

T h e Fi n a n c e S e c t io n c o n t a i n e d t h e

P r o c u r e m e n t S e c ti o n w h ic h w a s th e s o u r c in g o f th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s ,
A s s e t M a n a g e m e n t w h ic h a s s is te d w i t h d is p o s a l t h r o u g h m o v e a b l e
a s s e ts C h a ir.

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T h e n w e h a v e t h e Fu e ll in g S e c t io n u n d e r n e a t h . T h e Tr e a s u r y
- t h e Tr e a s u r y S e c ti o n w a s f o r f o r e i g n p a y m e n t s fo r t h e c a s h fl o w
s e c t io n .

T h e n I T a n d th e I n t e r n a l A u d i t o r s .

Th a t f e l l a ll u n d e r t h e

Fi n a n c e D e p a r t m e n t . W e h a d a c o m m e r c i a l – C o m m e r c i a l D e p a r t m e n t ,
L e g a l , Te c h n ic a l . I f I c a n g o i n to d e t a il o n t h e Te c h n ic a l S e c t io n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h e Te c h n ic a l h a d a H e a v y M a i n t e n a n c e a n d a
L i n e M a i n te n a n c e S e c ti o n .

Heavy Maintenance refers to your major

m a in t e n a n c e o n y o u r a i r c r a f t w h i c h is lik e A C h e c k s o r C C h e c k s a n d I
10

c a n e x p la i n t h a t i f - i f y o u w o u l d l ik e t o C h a ir – a n d t h e n t h e r e is th e
L i n e M a i n t e n a n c e S e c t io n w a s t h e d a y t o d a y t o m a i n t e n a n c e o n t h e
a ir c r a f t , n i g h t s e r v ic e s p l a n n i n g a n d t h e s t o r e s .
W e h a d a H u m a n C a p i ta l D e p a r t m e n t .

W e h a v e a q u a l i ty

c o n tr o l a n d s a f e ty d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h e n s u r e s th e a u d i ts a n d c o m p li a n c e
t o th e r e g u l a to r y b o d ie s .

Th e n w e a ls o h a v e a S e c u r it y D e p a r t m e n t

w h e r e a ll s e c u r i ty i n c id e n c e w e r e r e p o r t e d to .

We have the CEO

O ff ic e , t h e B o a r d s a n d t h e n th e S h a r e h o ld e r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u .

S o ju s t t o s u m m a r i s e

t h e n t h e r e a r e e s s e n ti a l ly e ig h t u s e r d e p a r t m e n ts . O n e o f w h ic h is t h e
20

O p e r a t io n s D e p a r t m e n t a n d i s t h a t – s o r r y – i s t h a t t h e u s e r d e p a r t m e n t
in w h ic h y o u w o r k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is t h a t t h e u s e r d e p a r t m e n t to

w h ic h D a v e A ll e n b y is t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u a ls o m a d e m e n t io n t h a t th e r e a r e
c e r t a i n d i v is i o n s w i t h i n o p e r a t io n s s u c h b e i n g C a b in S e r v ic e s , A ir p o r t
O p e r a t io n s , F l ig h t O p e r a t io n s , O p e r a ti o n s C o n tr o l C e n tr e a n d R a m p .
H o w d o e s y o u r r o le a s A ir p o r t ’s C o o r d i n a t o r i n t e g r a t e o r d e a l w i t h t h e
d iv is io n s a s ju s t m e n ti o n e d e a c h o f w h i c h I u n d e r s ta n d is le d b y a
D i v is io n a l M a n a g e r ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

M y r o le is m o r e o f a s u p p o r ti n g a n d a n

a d m i n is tr a t iv e r o l e t o t h e D i v is io n a l M a n a g e r s o f t h e s e c to r s a n d t h e n I
r e p o r t d ir e c tly t o t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C h a ir.
10

s e c t io n s .

I d i d a d m i n is tr a ti o n w o r k

So I supported these

for the sections and

s p e c i f ic a l ly f o c u s e d o n t h e s t a t i o n s c o o r d i n a t i n g t h e s ta t io n s .

then
There

a r e s e v e r a l s e r v ic e s t h a t g o w i th th e s t a t i o n s . If y o u w o u l d lik e m e t o
e x p l a i n th a t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e w i ll – I t h i n k le t u s – le t u s …
MS ESTELLE LOOCK: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D e a l w i t h it . Is th a t a ll t h a t y o u w is h
t o s ta t e o n th a t p o in t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s b e c a u s e i f w e g o i n t o d e t a il o f e x a c tly w h a t
a l l m y r o l e s a r e th e n w e c a n .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d o n y o u r c u e w e w i ll d o e x a c tl y

t h a t . S o p a r a g r a p h 4 o n p a g e 1 o f y o u r – o f t h e b u n d le …
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D e a ls w i t h y o u r f u n c ti o n s a s A ir p o r t ’s
C o o r d in a to r. C a n y o u g i v e a h i g h l e v e l o v e r v i e w o f w h a t e x a c tl y y o u r
r o l e a n d r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s w e r e i n t h e p o s i ti o n o f A ir p o r t ’s C o o r d in a t o r

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
p a r t ic u l a r ly d u r i n g t h e y e a r o f 2 0 1 7 a n d e v e n 2 0 1 8 fo r t h a t m a t t e r ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

A l r i g h t.

( C l e a r i n g t h r o a t) - e x c u s e m e .

I had

s e v e r a l d i ff e r e n t r o l e s b e i n g a n A ir p o r t ’s C o o r d in a t o r w h i c h o n e o f t h e m
w a s a – a f in a n c ia l ty p e o f r o le w h e r e I v e r i f ie d in v o ic e s a c c o r d in g t o
g a z e t t e d r a t e s , a c c o r d i n g to c o n tr a c ts .
G e n e r a l M a n a g e r f o r a u t h o r is a ti o n .

O n c e I v e r i fy i t g o e s t o t h e

T h e n i t g o e s fo r p a y m e n t .

I a ls o

r e v ie w b u d g e ts w i th th e D iv i s i o n a l M a n a g e r o f A ir p o r t s , m o n i t o r in g t h e
– t h e e x p e n s e s a t t h e s t a ti o n s , i m p le m e n t c o s t s a v in g i n it i a t iv e s to s e e
w h e r e w e c a n c u t c o s ts .
A ls o w o r k a l o t w i t h t h e p a y m e n ts w it h t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r

10
ensuring

t h a t c e r ta i n

service

providers

are

paid

C h a ir.

On

a

p r o c u r e m e n t l e v e l I w a s a l o t i n v o l v e d i n d r a w i n g u p d o c u m e n ta t io n l ik e
t h e R F Q s w h i c h w a s th e R e q u e s t fo r Q u o t a ti o n s , th e R e q u e s t fo r
P r o p o s a ls w h i c h l e d t o a te n d e r p r o c e s s , d e v i a ti o n s . ( C le a r in g t h r o a t) excuse me.
A s a f u n c t io n I d r e w u p t h e s e d o c u m e n t s .

However it – it

w e n t t o e i th e r t h e D iv i s i o n a l M a n a g e r o f t h e S e c t o r o r t h e G e n e r a l
M a n a g e r to s i g n o ff b e fo r e s u b m is s io n to p r o c u r e m e n t . A ls o a s s is ti n g
s t a ti o n s w i t h th e ir r e q u ir e m e n t p r o c u r e m e n t w is e – d o t h e y n e e d
20

s t a ti o n e r y, d o t h e y n e e d e q u i p m e n t ?
C o n tr a c ts

w is e

I

n o r m a lly

work

( C le a r in g th r o a t) - e x c u s e m e .
with

Procurement

to

fi n a l is e

a g r e e m e n ts .
I r e v i e w a g r e e m e n ts w i th t h e D iv is io n a l M a n a g e r o f th a t
s e c t io n t o s e e if t h e c o n t r a c t c o n ta i n s w h a t o u r r e q u i r e m e n ts a r e . A l s o
a s s is t D iv is io n a l M a n a g e r s w it h t h e S L A s t h a t a r e i m p le m e n t e d w it h t h e

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s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s t o e n s u r e t h a t th e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r s d o e x a c tl y w h a t
is i n t h e c o n tr a c t . O n a c o m p li a n c e s i d e I a s s is t e d s t a ti o n s w i th h a v i n g
u p d a te d m a n u a ls e s p e c i a l ly fo r a u d i t p u r p o s e s f o r ( I O S A ) I ATA a u d it s .
I a ls o d is tr i b u te d o c u m e n t s t h a t c o m p li a n c e is r e q u ir e d f o r
a n d a ls o u p d a ti n g o f m a n u a ls fo r a u d i t in g p u r p o s e s . T h is i s n o t fli g h t
a u d it i n g p u r p o s e s .

O n t h e d is tr i b u t io n s i d e I a s s is t e d w i th g iv i n g

s t a ti o n s o r g iv i n g s ta t io n s w h a t t h e y n e e d , s e n d i n g s t a ti o n s w h a t t h e y
n e e d l ik e b a g g a g e t a g s a n d b o a r d in g p a s s e s , r a m p – a s s i s ti n g w i th
r a m p e q u ip m e n t , r e fl e c t iv e j a c k e ts a ll f o r d a il y o p e r a ti o n s w h a t p e o p l e
10

n e e d e d a n d t h e n r e p o r t in g w is e I a ls o d i d m o n t h ly r e p o r ts f o r th e
G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o r D iv i s i o n a l M a n a g e r w h a t t h e y r e q u ir e d C h a ir a n d a t
a s ta g e I w a s a ls o i n v o lv e d in s e t ti n g u p s t a ti o n s .
C e r t a in d iv is i o n s o f t h e a ir li n e i s r e q u ir e d t o s it d o w n a n d s e e
e x a c tl y w h a t is r e q u ir e d f o r a n e w s ta t io n a n d e v e r y d e p a r t m e n t h a d i ts
r o l e i n s e t ti n g u p t h e s ta t io n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u .

S o g e n e r a l ly i f – i f I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y c o r r e c t y o u h a d a f u l l v i e w o f e x a c t ly w h a t
w a s h a p p e n in g a t a n y p a r t ic u l a r s ta t io n a n d j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d w o u ld –
w h a t e x a c tly is a s ta t io n ?
20

MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

A s t a ti o n i s a d e s t in a ti o n t h a t w e fly to .

So

B l o e m f o n t e i n , K i m b e r l e y th a t is a s t a t i o n – G e o r g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o th a t w o u l d s p e c i fi c a lly t h e n

b e t h e a i r p o r t w i t h i n th a t p a r t ic u l a r … ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t ja .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : L o c a t io n .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A ir p o r t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t c e r t a i n l y w i t h in th e r o l e t h a t y o u
h a d y o u w e r e i n a p o s i ti o n to h a v e a f u l l a p p r e c i a t i o n f o r t h e o v e r a ll
f u n c t i o n a n d o p e r a ti o n s o f a p a r t ic u l a r s t a t io n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Fo r p u r p o s e s o f th e e v i d e n c e t o d a y it
10

is i m p o r t a n t t o l o o k a t – a t l e a s t t w o a s p e c ts o f y o u r r o le i n g r e a te r
detail.

Yo u m a d e m e n ti o n o f th e f a c t t h a t y o u a r e i n v o l v e d i n

p r o c u r e m e n t a t s ta t io n s . Is th a t r i g h t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o c a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n to
p a g e 5 8 w h ic h is u n d e r Ta b s e v e n ?

D o y o u r e c o g n i s e t h is d o c u m e n t

Ms Loock?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s I d o C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e i d e n ti f y i t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I t is t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t P o lic y o f S A
20

Express.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t i s t o b e n o te d t h a t o n p a g e 5 8
t h e e ffe c t iv e d a te o f t h is p o li c y is 1 A p r i l 2 0 1 7 w it h th e r e v i e w d a te o f
3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 8 . Is th a t r i g h t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t tr u e t h a t t h is i s a c tu a lly t h e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
p o li c y t h a t r e g u l a t e d o r o u g h t t o h a v e r e g u la t e d p r o c u r e m e n t d u r i n g
t h is p e r i o d u n d e r s c r u ti n y o f y o u r e v id e n c e i n 2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: If I can then ask you to turn to page
6 2 p l e a s e ? C h a i r a t - a t t h e p r e a m b le o n p a r a g r a p h 1 i t s e ts t h e to n e
t o – to r e c o r d :
“ T h i s p o lic y e s t a b l is h e s a n in t e g r a t e d S u p p ly C h a i n
Management
a c q u is i ti o n
10

Fr a m e w o r k
of

goods,

within

services

w h ic h
and

the

works

is

performed within SA Express.”
T h e s c o p e is s e t o u t o n p a g e 6 3 w h i c h i s th e n e x t p a g e a t
p a r a g r a p h 4 a n d t h e p o lic y s c o p e is i d e n t if ie d a s t h a t:
“It

s h a ll

a p p ly

to

supply

chain

ma nagement

a c ti v i ti e s w it h in S A E x p r e s s c o v e r i n g a ll b u s i n e s s
u n i ts o f th e c o m p a n y. I t i s f u r th e r a p p l ic a b l e t o a l l
procurement

tr a n s a c ti o n s

ir r e s p e c ti v e

of

t h e ir

nature or value.”
O n p a g e 6 4 t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d a c c o u n t a b il i ty o f t h e C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r is s e t o u t i n 5 . 2 w h ic h i d e n t i fi e s th a t :
20

“ H e is o r s h e is r e s p o n s i b l e a n d a c c o u n t a b le f o r t h e
procurement of goods and services for the company
e n t e r in g

into

c o n tr a c ts ,

s tr a t e g i c

partnerships,

a r r a n g e s t h e h ir i n g o r l e t t in g o f a n y t h i n g .

The

a c q u is i ti o n o r g r a n ti n g o f a n y r i g h t fo r o n b e h a lf o f
S A E x p r e s s a n d d is p o s e s o f m o v e a b l e S A E x p r e s s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
p r o p e r ty. ”
M s L o o c k i f I c a n n o w a s k y o u t o t h e n tu r n t o p a g e 6 5 w h ic h
t a lk s p a r t ic u l a r l y to S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t U n i t a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 4 .
I n w h ic h u s e r d e p a r t m e n t d i d S u p p l y C h a i n – d i d th e S u p p ly C h a i n
M a n a g e m e n t U n i t s i t?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I n t h e P r o c u r e m e n t S e c ti o n u n d e r Fi n a n c e

C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And what were the Human Resources
o r t h e c a p a c i t y r e q u ir e m e n t s o f t h e P r o c u r e m e n t D iv i s i o n d u r i n g
10

2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h e Pr o c u r e m e n t S e c t io n w a s n o t fu ll y m a n n e d
– i f I c a n m a k e th a t s t a te m e n t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h y w a s t h a t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I t – c h a n g e o v e r o f s t a ff , li m i t e d s ta ff m e m b e r s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y a n d h o w d id t h a t i m p a c t o n t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t o f g o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s w i th in S A E x p r e s s a t t h e t i m e ?
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Obviously it has led to things not been done or
t h i n g s n o t b e e n f in a l is e d – i f I c a n s ta t e t h a t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

20

And so did that outcome impact on

y o u r r o l e a t a l l?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s i t d i d j a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: How?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I n 2 0 1 7 I h a d t o g e t m o r e i n v o lv e d in s o r t in g

o u t a g r e e m e n ts w i t h s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s . S o …
CHAIRPERSON: One second. Thank you. We may proceed.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

So the lack of

r e s o u r c e s i n th e P r o c u r e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t i m p a c t e d o n y o u r r o le ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Ye s I b e c a m e m o r e in v o lv e d i n p r o d u c i n g

d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w e n t to p r o c u r e m e n t t o tr y a n d s o u r c e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y. I f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 6 5 o f th e

b u n d l e y o u w i ll n o t e th a t u n d e r o n e o f t h e b u ll e t p o in ts o f t h e s u b
h e a d i n g . I t l is ts th a t :
“These
10

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s

of

the

unit

then

encompasses …”
O n th e fi f th b u l le t :
“ … t h e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r i s r e s p o n s i b le f o r
in s u r i n g t h a t S A E x p r e s s ’ s u p p ly … ”
F o r g iv e m e C h a ir. I h a v e j u s t n o t e d th a t t h a t s e n te n c e a p p e a r s t o b e
in c o m p l e t e b u t h a v i n g s a i d t h a t:
“ T h e C h i e f Pr o c u r e m e n t O ffic e r … ”
I n f o u r b u ll e ts d o w n :
“ … m a y fr o m t i m e t o ti m e e s t a b li s h a n a d h o c c r o s s
…”

20

W h i c h a g a i n a p p e a r s to b e a n in c o m p l e te s e n t e n c e .

N o n e th e le s s t h e

C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ffi c e r w a s c e r t a i n l y a n i n t e g r a l s t a k e h o ld e r i n t h e
procurement of goods and services at SA Express. Is that right?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I t h e n a s k y o u to tu r n t o p a g e 6 9
p l e a s e a n d i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 w h ic h r e g u la t e s a c q u is i ti o n

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
m a n a g e m e n t 1 0 . 1 i n p a r tic u la r w h i c h t a lk s t o t h e m e t h o d s o f a c q u is i ti o n
a n d t h r e s h o ld v a l u e s fo r p r o c u r e m e n t o f g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s . T h e t a b l e
b e l o w t h a t i d e n t if i e s p r o c u r e m e n t m e c h a n i s ms . Th e fi r s t c o l u m n o n t h e
le f t h a n d s i d e i d e n ti f ie s t h e m e c h a n is m .
T h e m i d d l e c o l u m n id e n ti fi e s t h r e s h o l d a n d t h e l a s t c o l u m n
id e n t i fi e s d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i t y. D o y o u s e e t h a t M s L o o c k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s I d o C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u to p l e a s e li s t t h e n o r

r a th e r r e a d i n t o th e r e c o r d t h a t w h ic h h a s – w h ic h a p p li e s o r r a t h e r i f I
10

c a n a s k y o u t o r e a d th e th ir d l in e w h ic h b e g i n s w i t h :
“RFP/RFI …”
I n t o t h e r e c o r d a n d w h a t e x a c tl y t h a t w o u l d m e a n i n c o n te x t o f
procurement.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h e R F P C h a i r s t a n d s f o r R e q u e s t fo r P r o p o s a l .
S o t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a t e n d e r p r o c e s s t h a t i f i t is a n a m o u n t h ig h e r
t h a n 5 0 0 0 0 0 w e h a v e t o g o o u t o n a te n d e r p r o c e s s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Okay

and

who

would

be

the

delegated …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. P l e a s e c o n ti n u e .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u .

Who would be the

d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty f o r a n R F P / R F I a c c o r d i n g t o t h e ta b l e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A c c o r d i n g to th e t a b l e i t w o u l d b e t h e B A C , t h e
C E a n d th e B o a r d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d f o r th e r e c o r d w h a t d o e s B A C

stand for?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : B i d A d j u d ic a ti o n C o m m i t t e e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And CE?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : C h i e f E x e c u ti v e , y e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If you then look three lines down

w h ic h s ta r t s w it h d e v i a ti o n s c a n y o u p l e a s e d o th e s a m e i n r e s p e c t o f
d e v i a ti o n s fo r t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty w o u l d b e t h e G e n e r a l

M a n a g e r, t h e C E , t h e B A C a n d t h e B o a r d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is i t c o r r e c t t h a t o r r a th e r w h a t is
10

t h e t h r e s h o ld in r e la t io n to d e v i a ti o n s fo r s u c h d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty ?
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: That would be above 500 000.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

Can I now ask you to

t u r n t o p a g e 7 9 p le a s e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

T h a t e m e r g e n c y p r o c e d u r e 5 0 0 is th a t

correct? Emergency procedures 500 – that seems …
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : S ir I w o u l d b e li e v e th a t w o u l d b e a ty p i n g e r r o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t w o u ld b e a t y p i n g e r r o r. I b e li e v e i t is 5 0 0
and more.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t s h o u ld b e 5 0 0 0 0 0 .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Apologies – the page number?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Page 7-9 – 79. Paragraph 17 deals

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w i t h th e R e g u l a ti o n o f E m e r g e n c y Bi d s a n d D e v i a t i o n s . F o r t h e r e c o r d
c a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d th e f ir s t t h r e e p a r a g r a p h s o f t h e s e c t io n b e c a u s e
it is q u it e k e y t o y o u r e v id e n c e w h ic h c o n t i n u e s o n p a g e 8 0 ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
“ E m e r g e n c y B id s a n d D e v i a ti o n s :

it may become necessary

during the normal course of business to procure goods or
s e r v ic e s i n a n e m e r g e n c y s i t u a t i o n .

The normal bidding

p r o c e s s e s o r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s m a y n o t b e a p p r o p r i a te fo r
s u c h a n e v e n t u a li t y.
10

M o ti v a t io n s to d e v i a te fr o m th e n o r m a l

s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s s h a l l b e p r e s e n t e d t o
t h e S A Ex p r e s s B i d A d j u d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e fo r c o n s i d e r a ti o n
o r s u b m i t t e d f o r a p p r o v a l t o t h e C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r. S u c h
p u r c h a s e s s h a l l b e w it h in th r e s h o l d p r e s c r ib e d in te r ms o f t h e
d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty a s w e ll a s w i t h i n th e … ”
“ . . .a d e ta il e d a n d s o u n d m o t iv a ti o n m u s t b e p r o v i d e d w h e n
s u b m i tt i n g r e q u e s ts f o r d e v i a t i o n s .

U n d e r n o c ir c u m s t a n c e s

w i ll th e a p p l ic a ti o n b e s u p p o r t e d w h e r e i t is e v i d e n t th a t
a l t e r n a t iv e a c t io n i s p r o p o s e d w i t h t h e p u r p o s e w i th t h e
purpose
20

of

c i r c u mv e n ti n g

the

S A Express

procurement

p r o c e s s e s a n d t h a t th e u r g e n c y i s d u e t o n e g l i g e n c e o r b a d
p l a n n in g . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

A n d y o u w i ll s e e th e n

t h a t th e t a b le b e l o w i d e n ti f ie s o n th e o n e h a n d c a s e s o f e m e r g e n c y a n d
a l o n g s i d e i t r e q u ir e m e n t to s a tis f y s u p p o r t , w h ic h is p r e c e d e d b y a
s e n te n c e w h ic h r e a d s t h e c r i t e r ia r e f le c t e d i n t h e t a b l e b e l o w m a y b e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
u s e d b y th e S A E x p r e s s b i d a d ju d i c a ti o n c o m m i t te e d u r i n g th e
assessment process.
F o r t h e r e c o r d c a n I a s k y o u t o id e n ti fy w h a t is w r it t e n u n d e r
cases of emergency please?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
“ A c ti o n s w h e r e e m e r g e n c y is p l e a d e d . ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d a l o n g s i d e w h e r e i t i d e n t if i e s th e
r e q u ir e m e n t t o s a t is fy s u p p o r t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
10

It reads:

“ P r o o f t h a t a c ti o n w a s i n th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s o f a n e m e r g e n c y
w a s in t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f S A E x p r e s s . S A E x p r e s s d i d n o t
s u ff e r n e g li g e n c e o r d a m a g e s a n d d e s ir a b le o u tc o m e s o r
o b j e c ti v e s w il l b e a c h ie v e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u , a n d j u s t l a s t ly th e S A –
s o r r y, p a r a g r a p h 2 8 , o n t h e s a m e p a g e t a lk s s p e c i f ic a l ly t o a ir c r a f t o n
g r o u n d e m e r g e n c y p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s b u t i t ’s w i t h i n a t h r e s h o l d
o r w i t h in a r a n g e , a m o n e t a r y r a n g e o f w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e 5 0 0 t o
R 1 . 5 m il li o n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

20

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n l a s tl y o n p a g e 8 1 I ju s t w is h
t o h ig h l i g h t to y o u C h a i r t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p r o v is io n s a s w e ll w h ic h
r e g u la t e s u n s o l ic i t e d b id s a t p a r a g r a p h 3 1 a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 2 i t ta lk s
to the sole supplier or single source.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I’ m s t il l j u s t a t t h a t fi g u r e , t h a t R 5 0 0 4 9 9 , 9 9 9 d o
y o u t h in k i t’s a n o th e r ty p e t h a t 5 0 0 ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I ’ m n o t a t li b e r t y t o s a y C h a ir b u t

could be.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o i f y o u , I m e a n t h e 4 9 9 is i t – d o y o u r e a d i t
a s fo u r m i ll io n , w h a t i s i t , is i t f o u r h u n d r e d a n d n in e ty n i n e t h o u s a n d
n i n e h u n d r e d a n d n in e ty n i n e r a n d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a t ’s h o w I r e a d it C h a ir, R 4 9 9 9 9 9 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is t h a t h o w y o u r e a d it a l s o M s L o o c k ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i s n ’ t t h e d i ffi c u l ty w i t h r e a d i n g i t th a t w a y, t h a t i t
10

s e e m s t o s t a r t fr o m a h i g h e r a m o u n t to a l o w a m o u n t , n u m b e r o n e ,
n u m b e r t w o , i t m a k e s a d i ff e r e n c e o f w h a t – o n e R a n d .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A s o p p o s e d t o i f y o u r e a d i t a s 5 0 0 t h e n it m a k e s

s o m e s e n s e u p t o a c e r t a in p o i n t , b u t i t w o u ld n ’t m a k e m u c h s e n s e i f
you read it as R500 000 to R499 999?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir i f m a y . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e s o m e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f i t M s S e p te m b e r ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

I must admit I was a big boggled

when I saw the 500.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I w a s a b i t b o g g le d w h e n I t o o f ir s t s a w t h e

5 0 0 b u t i f y o u lo o k a t th e t w o s u b - p a r a g r a p h s t h e r e th e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h s
t a lk s to a t h r e s h o l d o f 5 0 0 t o 4 9 9 9 9 9 , t h e s e c o n d s u b - p a r a g r a p h h a s
a n o t h e r t h r e s h o l d w h i c h is fr o m 5 0 0 0 0 0 to R 1 . 5 m il li o n .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t o n e m a k e s s e n s e . T h e f ir s t o n e is tr o u b l e s o m e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t th e r e w a s a ls o a r e fe r e n c e e a r li e r o n t o R 5 0 0

w h ic h I d r e w M s L o o c k ’s a t t e n t io n t o e a r li e r a n d s h e th o u g h t i t m u s t b e
a m i s t a k e , b u t m a y b e – i t m i g h t n o t b e s o i m p o r ta n t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s ,
s o y o u w i ll k n o w b e t te r in a d v a n c e i f i t w il l – i f i t is r e a ll y o f a n y
s ig n if ic a n c e f o r o u r p u r p o s e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n fa c t I’ m h a p p y t o i d e n t i fy t h a t

w h il s t r e f e r e n c e i s m a d e w i th i n s o m e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o a i r c r a ft o n
10

g r o u n d w h ic h is a b b r e v i a te d t o A O G c e r t a i n ly th e t h r e s h o l d s d o n o t
a p p ly a n d i t’s f o r th a t p u r p o s e t h a t I ’v e r e a ll y j u s t i d e n ti f ie d t h i s
p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n l a s t ly o n p a g e 8 3 p a r a g r a p h
3 8 t a l k s s p e c i f ic a ll y t o c o n tr a c ti n g a n d r e a d s i n th e fir s t s e n t e n c e :
“ T h a t a l l c o n tr a c ts w i t h i n S A E x p r e s s s h a l l b e g o v e r n e d b y t h e
p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t p o li c y. ”
A n d t h a t i s t h e n th e – s o m e o f t h e i m p o r ta n t a s p e c ts o f th e s u p p ly
c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p o li c y t h a t a p p li e d o r t o h a v e a p p li e d d u r i n g 2 0 1 7 ,

20

is t h a t r i g h t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C a n I t h e n a s k y o u to g o b a c k to

p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t , a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 4 .4 m e n t i o n is
m a d e i n t h is p a r t ic u l a r s u b - p a r a g r a p h o f g r o u n d h a n d li n g s e r v ic e s a t
d i ff e r e n t s t a ti o n s , is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r r o l e a s a ir p o r ts c o o r d i n a t o r w a s

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
it li m i t e d t o g r o u n d h a n d l in g s e r v ic e s o r d i d i t e x te n d b e y o n d t h a t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e s e r v ic e s e x t e n d e d b e y o n d g r o u n d h a n d l i n g

ja .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o i t is u n d e r s t o o d t h a t th e r e i s a n

i m p o r t a n t d is t in c t i o n b e t w e e n a ir p o r ts t h a t a r e o w n e d b y A C S A a n d
a ir p o r ts th a t a r e n o t o w n e d b y A C S A , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : L o o k i n g a t t h e li s t i n g o f s t a ti o n s , o r
a ir p o r ts a s I w o u l d c o m m o n l y k n o w t h e m t o b e c a n I a s k y o u t o id e n ti fy
10

in t h e lis t w h ic h s t a t i o n s o r a i r p o r ts a r e i n f a c t A C S A a ir p o r ts p l e a s e ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Johannesburg, Durban, East London, Port

E li z a b e th , C a p e To w n , B l o e m f o n t e i n , K i m b e r l e y a n d G e o r g e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h y is th e d i s t i n c ti o n b e t w e e n

A C S A a ir p o r t s a n d n o n - A C S A o w n e d a i r p o r ts s o i m p o r t a n t , fo r p u r p o s e s
o f y o u r e v id e n c e t o d a y, s o r r y.
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

In t h e c o n t e x t o f my a ff id a v i t it r e l a te s t o t h e

S A A F u e l C o n tr a c t w h i c h li n k s t o th e A C S A a ir p o r ts .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y s o i f I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c tly
a r e y o u th e n , is i t y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t t h e S A A , S A E x p r e s s J e t A 1 f u e l
20

c o n tr a c t o n l y a p p li e s t o A C S A o w n e d a ir p o r ts ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ac c o r d i n g t o t h e q u a n t u m . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )

Yo u m a y h a v e h a d t o o m a n y o n t h is , a n d c o n f u s e d

h e r. Yo u w a n t to f in d o u t w h e t h e r i t a p p li e d t o A C S A a i r p o r ts o n ly ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t , i t a p p li e s t o A C S A o w n e d

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
a ir p o r ts y e s C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . S o h o w w o u l d je t f u e l o r
je t A 1 f u e l t h e n b e s u p p l ie d a t t h e a ir p o r t s w h ic h a r e n o t A C S A o w n e d
o r n o n - A C S A a ir p o r t s ?
MS ESTELLE LO OCK:

Yo u w o u l d h a v e to e i th e r u s e t h e s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r th a t h a s b e e n c o n tr a c t e d b y t h e A ir p o r t s C o m p a n y th a t – w i t h
a

p r i v a t e ly

owned

airport,

they

would

have

t h e ir

own

fu e ll in g

c o m p a n i e s , s u p p l y i n g f u e l a t th e s t a t i o n , s o y o u w o u l d h a v e t o th e n
c o n tr a c t w i th a s in g l e s o le s e r v i c e p r o v id e r C h a ir, t h a t is w i t h
10

r e c o m m e n d e d o r to l d b y t h e A ir p o r ts C o m p a n y t h a t y o u m a y u s e C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o t h e d is ti n c ti o n t h e n in s u m m a r y is
t h a t a t A C S A o w n e d a ir p o r ts a n a ir li n e w o u l d c o n tr a c t fo r t h e s u p p ly o f
je t f u e l a t th o s e a i r p o r ts o r r a t h e r S A E x p r e s s s o r r y w o u l d c o n tr a c t fo r
t h e s u p p ly o f j e t f u e l a t th o s e a ir p o r t s o n t h e b a s is o f t h e S A A / S A
E x p r e s s J e t F u e l C o n tr a c t , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n a t t h e a ir p o r ts w h ic h a r e

n o t A C S A o w n e d S A E x p r e s s w o u l d n e e d to c o n t r a c t w i t h t h e fu e l
s u p p ly s e r v i c e p r o v id e r t h a t h a s b e e n i d e n ti fi e d a n d n o m i n a te d b y t h e
20

owner of that airport?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S u n C it y o r P il a n e s b e r g s ta t io n a n d

M a f e k in g s ta t io n i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t th o s e t w o s ta t io n s a r e n o t A C S A
owned?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w y o u r r o l e a s a ir p o r ts c o o r d i n a t o r
d i d i t e x te n d t o a l l o f th e s e s t a ti o n s a t t h e ti m e ?
MS ESTELLE LO OCK:

A t t h e ti m e o f t h is n o , I w a s p r i o r t o th a t I w a s

r e m o v e d f r o m t h e s e t u p o f t h e S u n C i ty a n d t h e M a fe k i n g s ta t io n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h e n w e r e t h e y, a p p r o x i m a t e l y

w h e n w e r e th e P i la n e s b e r g o r M a f e k i n g , o r S u n C i t y s t a t i o n a n d
M a f e k in g s e t u p , d o y o u r e m e m b e r ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I’ m t a lk i n g u n d e r c o r r e c t io n , i t ’s e i t h e r i n 2 0 1 6 .

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A c c o r d in g t o o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i t w a s
10

set up during the year of 2015.
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

O h , c o r r e c t y e s , t h a t is c o r r e c t j a , C h a ir.

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H a v i n g s a i d t h a t y o u n o w m e n t io n e d
t h a t y o u w e r e r e m o v e d fr o m t h e s e t t in g u p o f t h e s e t w o p a r ti c u l a r
a ir p o r ts , w h ic h f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s w e w i l l r e f e r t o a s P il a n e s b e r g a n d
M a f e k in g a ir p o r ts , w h o r e m o v e d y o u a n d w h y ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e D iv is io n a l M a n a g e r a t th e ti m e r e m o v e d

m e a n d i f I c a n e x p la in h o w i t w o r k s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e d o .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A n d y o u w o u l d h a v e a b e tt e r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f
20

it . C e r ta in s e c t i o n s i n th e a ir li n e h a v e c e r t a i n r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s in s e t t in g
u p t h e s ta t io n , l ik e I e x p l a in e d e a r li e r, a n d m e u n d e r Ai r p o r t O p e r a t io n s
w e h a d c e r t a i n th i n g s t h a t w e w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e i n s e t ti n g u p a n d f o r
example providing radio services, providing ramp equipment and so on.
I n th is in s ta n c e I w a s t o ta ll y n o t a c ti v e ly in v o lv e d , I w a s r e m o v e d b y
t h e D iv i s i o n a l M a n a g e r a s t h is w a s a c o m m e r c ia l d e p a r t m e n t v e n t u r e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
in t o S u n C i t y a n d M a f e k i n g .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h o w a s t h e d iv i s i o n a l m a n a g e r
at the time.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t w a s S t o m p ie Ts h e s a n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n t h e

d iv is io n a l m a n a g e r o f o p e r a t i o n s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A ir p o r t o p e r a t io n s y e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w h o e x a c t ly a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r

k n o w l e d g e w a s i n v o lv e d i n t h e s e t t in g u p o f t h e M a f e k i n g a n d t h e
10

P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r ts .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e C o m m e r c i a l S e c t io n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d th e y e x p l a i n to y o u w h y M s L o o c k
y o u w e r e e x c lu d e d fr o m t h e s e t u p o f t h e s e t w o s t a t i o n s .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e d e t a i ls C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is M s Ts h e s a n e s ti ll w o r k i n g a t S
A Express?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o s h e ’s n o t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Why not, or do you know the reasons
w h y s h e ’s n o l o n g e r w o r k i n g t h e r e ?

20

MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I d o b e li e v e s h e w a s s u s p e n d e d b u t y o u m a y

c o n fir m t h a t w i th o u r H u m a n C a p i t a l D e p a r t m e n t.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. W e r e y o u e v e r i n v o l v e d i n t h e
s u p p ly . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

M s S e p te m b e r d i d y o u p r o v i d e t h e s p e ll i n g f o r th a t

surname?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o I d i d n o t b u t w i t h M s L o o c k ’s

a s s is t a n c e i t w il l b e m u c h a p p r e c i a te d i f s h e c o u l d , i f y o u c o u ld ju s t
p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h e s p e ll in g o f M s S t o m p ie Ts h e s a n e p le a s e .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : R i g h t, c a n I . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i f y o u k n o w i t .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s I d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : S t o m p i e w h ic h is S - t - o - m - p - i- e a n d T- s - h - e - s - a n-e.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . W e r e y o u i n v o l v e d in a n y
p r o c u r e m e n t o f j e t f u e l a t a n y o f t h e s t a ti o n s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : O t h e r t h a n w h i c h r e s u l t e d i n th e s i t u a t io n in m y
a ffi d a v i t n o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y, a n d t h i s s i t u a t io n th a t y o u

s p e a k o f i s t h is th e r e q u ir e m e n t f o r j e t f u e l a t P i la n e s b e r g A ir p o r t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p la i n to t h e C h a i r
h o w – w h e n fir s t ly, a n d h o w a n o p e r a t i o n a l r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e s u p p l y
o f j e t f u e l a r o s e a t t h e P i l a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t , a n d n o w w e ’r e o n
20

p a r a g r a p h , w e ’r e s t a r t in g o n p a r a g r a p h 5 o f th e a ffi d a v it w h ic h is o n
page 2.
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e j e t A 1 f u e l p r o b le m c a m e in d u e t o th e

s e r v ic e p r o v id e r a t P i la n e s b e r g w e f o u n d t h a t t h e f u e l w a s n o t u s e r
fr i e n d ly, if I c a n p la c e it t h a t w a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t d o e s u s e r fr ie n d l y m e a n ?

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : F o r e x a m p l e c o n t a m i n a t e d , s o i t w a s n o t s a fe t o
u s e i t o n o u r a ir c r a f t . W e r e s u l t e d i n d o i n g a f u e l a u d i t s o I d i d g o t o
o u r Q u a li ty D e p a r t m e n t a n d r e q u e s t e d th a t a f u e l a u d i t b e d o n e o n t h e
c u r r e n t s u p p l ie r a t P il a n e s b e r g j u s t t o e n s u r e t h a t th e f u e l i s s a f e , t h e
r e p o r t d id c o m e b a c k , a r e p o r t w a s t h e n d is c u s s e d w i th t h e fl i g h t
o p e r a ti o n s d e p a r t m e n t a s w e ll a s th e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o f O p e r a t io n s ,
D a v e A ll e n b y, a n d c o n f ir m e d t h a t t h e f u e l c a n n o t b e u p l i ft e d , w h i c h
m e a n s w e c a n n o t t a k e fu e l i n S u n C i ty d u e to t h e c o n t a m in a ti o n o f t h e
fuel.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o w a s th e f u e l s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a t
P il a n e s b e r g a t t h e t i m e ?
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: RSI Fuel.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o i t ’s n o w u n d e r s t o o d t h a t R S I F u e l
a s a f u e l s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r i n P i la n e s b e r g w a s n o t y o u r s o lu t io n t o
g e t t in g th e s u p p ly o f f u e l a t P i la n e s b e r g A i r p o r t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
you

need

o p e r a t i o n a lly

fu e l t o

M o r e p a r ti c u la r ly M s L o o c k w h y d id
be

provided

to

your

a ir c r a f t i n

P il a n e s b e r g ?
20

MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

S A E x p r e s s h a d a fli g h t fr o m C a p e To w n to

P il a n e s b e r g , t h e d is t a n c e i s t o o l o n g fo r th a t a ir c r a f t t o t u r n a r o u n d a n d
g o b a c k t o C a p e To w n s o t h e r e q u ir e m e n t w a s t o u p li f t f u e l in S u n C i ty
t o e n s u r e t h a t t h a t a ir c r a f t c a n fl y b a c k t o C a p e To w n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o t h e r e a s o n f o r o b t a in in g o r r a t h e r
t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e n e e d fo r fu e l w a s t o r e fu e l o n t h e r o u t e fr o m C a p e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
To w n t o P il a n e s b e r g .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMB ER: What then happened when you learnt
o f t h e d i ffic u lt y i n r e l a t i o n t o R S I F u e l w h ic h w a s t h e f u e l s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r a t t h e t i m e a t P il a n e s b e r g ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e d i ffi c u l t w a s th a t w e c o u l d n o t u s e t h a t

s u p p li e r a t t h e s t a t i o n , t h e f li g h t w a s to o l o n g , fu e l w a s n e e d e d i n S u n
C i ty s o t h e r e m u s t b e a n a l te r n a ti v e to g e t f u e l t o S u n C i ty a n d t h a t
w a s t h e m a i n r e a s o n , I w a s t h e n in s tr u c te d b y m y G e n e r a l M a n a g e r, i f
10

w e m o v e o n w i th t h e a ffi d a v it .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s p l e a s e , w e a r e . S o y o u r G e n e r a l
M a n a g e r b e i n g M r D a v e A ll e n b y ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o h e in s tr u c t e d y o u t o e x p lo r e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As s o lu t i o n .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e w a s t h a t h e in d ic a t e d t o
m e a n d b e c a u s e o f th e r e q u i r e m e n t e s p e c ia lly fr o m t h e f li g h t o p e r a ti o n
s id e th e n e c e s s i ty o f g e t t in g f u e l i n S u n C it y w a s q u i t e u r g e n t a n d

20

i m p o r t a n t. T h e g e n e r a l m a n a g e r in s t r u c t e d m e to c o n ta c t t e c h n i c a l a n d
in t h i s c o n te x t I a m g o i n g to r e f e r t o t h e Te c h n ic a l D e p a r t m e n t w a s
b u s y w i t h a c o m p a n y c a ll e d E M L r e v ie w i n g t h e p r o c e s s w i t h th e m f o r
t h e d e f u e l in g a n d th e r e fu e lli n g o f a n a i r c r a ft .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

J u s t f o r c l a r i ty f o r t h o s e o f u s w h o

m a y n e e d c l a r i ty i n t h e a v ia t io n t e r m i n o l o g y c o n te x t, w h a t e x a c tl y is

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
d e f u e l in g a n d r e fu e ll in g f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f S A
E x p r e s s Te c h n i c a l ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Th e d e f u e li n g o f a n a ir c r a f t is w h e n y o u r e m o v e
a l l th e f u e l f r o m t h e f u e l t a n k o f t h e a ir c r a f t , t h a t w il l b e a p p l ic a b l e
w h e n y o u h a v e h e a v y m a in t e n a n c e o n a n a ir c r a f t, s o w h e n a n a ir c r a f t is
p u ll e d in t o a h a n g e r a n d w e c a ll i t a C - c h e c k w h ic h I e x p la i n e d e a r li e r
is a m a j o r s e r v ic e o n t h e a ir c r a f t . I t i s n e e d e d to r e m o v e t h e fu e l f r o m
t h e t a n k s t o e n s u r e t h a t th e fu e l t a n k c a n b e i n v e s ti g a te d fo r a n y
d a m a g e o r t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e f u e l t a n k is s ti ll fi n e .
10

T h e r e f u e ll in g is

o b v i o u s l y p la c i n g f u e l b a c k in t o th a t a ir c r a f t s o th a t i t c a n b e
o p e r a ti o n a l .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

so

ju s t

for

a

better

u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n s o m e o n e is c o n tr a c t e d t o d o r e f u e ll in g , s o r r y,
d e f u e l in g a n d th e n r e f u e ll i n g w o u l d i t o r d in a r ily i n c lu d e t h e s u p p ly o f
Jet A1 fuel? Do you know?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o I d o n ’ t.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f s o m e b o d y is c o n tr a c te d t o r e fu e l o r r a th e r t o d e fu e l
t h e p r o p e r p e r s o n m a y a ls o r e f u e l .
20

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M o s t li k e ly t h a t i s w h a t w o u l d

h a p p e n , th e s a m e e n t i ty w o u l d . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
MS ESTELLE LO OCK:

I w o u l d b e l ie v e t h e s a m e e n ti ty w o u l d p r o v i d e

t h e f u e l y e s , i t w o u l d m a k e t h e jo b e a s i e r, t h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . T h a t k in d o f e n t i ty t h a t w o u ld d o t h a t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w o u ld b e t h e e n t it y t h a t n o r m a l ly p r o v i d e s w h a t I a s s u m e w o u l d b e
s i m p l y c a ll e d fu e ll in g , s o I g u e s s w h e n a n a ir c r a f t h a s l a n d e d a n d i t
d o e s n ’t h a v e e n o u g h fu e l to g o b a c k b u t t h e r e is s o m e f u e l a n d f u e l is
p u t in t o i t th a t ’s fu e l li n g .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t’s f u e l li n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s o p p o s e d to d e f u e li n g a n d r e fu e ll in g t h e r e f u e ll in g
is w h e n f u e l h a s b e e n t a k e n o u t a n d t h e n y o u t a k e i t b a c k , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : D e fu e l i n g i s r e m o v in g a ll t h e fu e l, r e f u e ll in g is
p u t t in g fu e l i n t o th e a ir c r a f t , i t ’s f u e ll in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t ’s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g , y o u d e f u e l w h e n y o u t a k e
it o u t , b u t w h e n y o u t a k e i t b a c k y o u a r e r e f u e ll in g .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u j u s t p u t it i n w it h o u t ta k i n g o u t a n y t h i n g

y o u a r e f u e ll in g .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d t h a t c a n b e d o n e b y th e s a m e p e r s o n , t h e

s a m e e n t i ty ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s t h e f u e l s u p p l i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll o f i t a l l t h r e e , f u e ll i n g , d e fu e li n g , r e fu e ll in g c a n a l l
20

b e d o n e b y t h e s a m e b u s i n e s s , in o t h e r w o r d s a b u s in e s s th a t d o e s
f u e ll in g c a n a ls o d o d e f u e li n g a n d r e f u e l li n g , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms Loock before

w e c l o s e o ff t h e f u e ll i n g a n d d e f u e l in g c o n c e p t w h a t is a b o w s e r ?

Page 186 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a b o w s e r i s a ( i n d is t in c t)

t h a t g o e s fr o m th e fu e lli n g t r u c k t o th e a ir c r a f t to e n a b l e fu e l t o b e
p u m p e d fr o m a v e h ic l e th r o u g h t o th e a ir c r a ft .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t l ik e i n a g a r a g e .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So you were explaining Ms Loock

t h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d b y M r A l le n b y t o l o o k in t o t h e r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e
s u p p ly o f f u e l a t Pi l a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t a n d t h a t y o u w e r e d ir e c te d to
t e c h n ic a l . W h o in S A E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l d id y o u a p p r o a c h ?
10

MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I w a s r e f e r r e d t o P e t e r C o r v e r in Te c h n ic a l a s

t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y in c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i t h E M L f o r t h e d e fu e l i n g a n d
r e fu e ll in g o f a i r c r a ft a t O R Ta m b o I n te r n a t io n a l A ir p o r t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D id i t c o n c e r n a n y p a r t ic u l a r a ir c r a f t
that you were aware of?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

A s f a r a s I’ m a w a r e i t c o n s is t e d o f N o v e m b e r

M ik e E c h o a n d N o v e m b e r M ik e N o v e m b e r, b u t I s t a n d to b e c o r r e c te d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o N o v e m b e r, c a n w e j u s t d o t h is

a g a in , N o v e m b e r M i k e N o v e m b e r a n d N o v e m b e r ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
20

M ik e E c h o , t h a t is a v i a ti o n l i n g o , a l p h a b e t

a c t u a ll y w h e r e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e c la r i fy ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

J a , N o v e m b e r, M i k e , E c h o is a r e g is tr a ti o n o f

a n a i r c r a ft C h a ir, j a .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

id e n t i fic a t io n r e g is tr a ti o n s o n e a c h a i r c r a ft ?

Page 187 of 228

so

those

are

u n iq u e

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o y o u ’r e r e f e r r in g to t w o

p a r t ic u l a r a ir c r a f t t h a t S A E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l w a s l o o k i n g in t o in
r e l a ti o n t o t h e d e f u e l in g a n d r e fu e l li n g o f .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . I s i t c o r r e c t th a t t h is a ll
t o o k p la c e a r o u n d M a y o f 2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

So you approached Mr Corver and

y o u p r o v id e s y o u a b u s i n e s s c a r d f o r E M L , w h a t d o y o u t h e n d o w i t h
t h is p a r tic u la r in f o r m a t io n ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

As i n s tr u c t e d b y m y g e n e r a l m a n a g e r t h e

in s t r u c t i o n w a s c l e a r j u s t t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r E M L c a n p r o v id e a f u e l
tr u c k to tr a v e l t o S u n C i ty t o f u e l o u r a ir c r a ft a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s c h e d u le
o f S u n C i ty, w h ic h w a s t w i c e a w e e k , th a t ’s f o u r f li g h t s , t w o o n M o n d a y
a n d t w o o n F r i d a y C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e s o l u ti o n t h e n i f I u n d e r s t a n d
y o u r c o r r e c tl y w a s t o t r a n s p o r t J e t A 1 fu e l fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g t o
P il a n e s b e r g i n o r d e r t o m e e t t h e o p e r a t io n a l r e q u i r e m e n t fo r t h e f li g h t
20

r o u t e fr o m C a p e To w n t o P il a n e s b e r g ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I th e n a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 1 6
p l e a s e , 1 6 . In f a c t i f w e c o u l d s ta r t o n p a g e 1 7 , o o p s s o r r y, p a g e 1 8 ,
s o r r y a b o u t t h a t. I n f a c t i t b e g i n s o n t h e p r e c e d i n g p a g e w h i c h is – it is
lis t e d a s a n e m a i l th a t i s s e n t fr o m y o u r s e l f o n Tu e s d a y t h e 1 6 t h o f M a y

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
2 0 1 7 a t 1 0 :5 9 a m , t o a c e r t a i n Er ic M o t la k e a n d t h e s u b j e c t i s j e t fu e l
t o S u n C i ty A ir p o r t . W h o is E r ic M o t la k e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I b e li e v e E r ic M o t l a k e i s th e C E O o f E M L , C E O
meaning owner of EML.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u , a n d i f I c a n a s k y o u to

r e a d t h e n y o u r e m a i l o n p a g e 1 8 i n to t h e r e c o r d , w h i c h is a d d r e s s e d to
him.
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
“ G o o d d a y Er ic ,
10

I r e c e iv e d y o u r d e t a i ls f r o m P e t e r C o r v e r fr o m o u r Te c h n ic a l
D e p a r t m e n t. S A E x p r e s s w o u l d lik e t o fi n d o u t w h e th e r y o u r
c o m p a n y c a n tr a n s p o r t j e t f u e l t o S u n C it y a s p e r o u r fl i g h t
schedule and what the cost would be.”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u c a n c o n t i n u e t o i n fo r m o f th e

fl ig h t , w h a t’s w r i t te n b e lo w t h a t .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A lr i g h t ;
“ F li g h t s c h e d u le O R Ta m b o A i r p o r t t o S u n C i ty M o n d a y a n d
Fr id a y a n d C a p e To w n t o S u n C i ty M o n d a y a n d Fr id a y.
R e g a r d s E s t e ll e ”
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w t h i s e m a il w a s s e n t o ff t h e b a c k
o f a n i n s tr u c t io n t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m y o u r g e n e r a l m a n a g e r, Mr D a v e
A ll e n b y, is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W h a t e x a c t ly w a s th e i n s tr u c t io n in

t h e c o n te x t o f w h a t y o u w e r e a s k i n g a q u o t a ti o n t o b e p r o v i d e d o n ?

Page 189 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
MS ESTELLE LO OCK:

In t h is c o n te x t i t’s o b v i o u s l y t o o b t a i n a tr u c k

t h a t c a n tr a n s p o r t j e t A 1 f u e l t o S u n C i ty C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i f i t’s u n d e r s t o o d t h e n , i f I’ m

u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r e v id e n c e c o r r e c t ly i t w a s a t u r n k e y s o l u ti o n if w e
c o u l d c a l l i t t h a t , in t h a t i t w a s n o t j u s t t h e tr a n s p o r ta t io n o f f u e l b u t i t
m a y h a v e e v e n in c l u d e d t h e s u p p ly o f f u e l , is t h a t r i g h t o r a m I
m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I f w e c a n t h e n tu r n t o p a g e 1 7 , t h e

p r e v i o u s p a g e , th e s e n d e r s d e t a i ls i s a c tu a l ly o n p a g e 1 6 a n d i ts fr o m
E r ic / E M L E n e r g y P ty L td a n d i t ’s s e n t Tu e s d a y M a y 1 5 2 0 1 7 a t 11 :0 6
a m a n d i t ’s Ts h e n o l o a n d y o u h a v e b e e n c o p i e d in o n i t to g e th e r w i th
T h i lly B a s a y a , i f I ’ m p r o n o u n c in g th a t c o r r e c tl y, s p e l t T h i lly s e c o n d
w o r d B a s a y a . Th e s u b j e c t f u e l – s u b j e c t b e i n g R E j e t f u e l t o S u n C it y
A ir p o r t . W h o is Ts h e n o l o ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I h a v e n e v e r m e t Ts h e n o lo C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th is is i n fa c t a n
e m a i l w h i c h r e q u e s ts y o u to r e c e iv e a r e s p o n s e q u i t e u r g e n t ly o n – o n
r e q u e s t f o r a q u o t a ti o n ?

20

MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Th a t is c o r r e c t .

S o I b e l ie v e d t h a t Ts h e n o l o

then worked for EML or was part of EML.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u r n a m e is h o w e v e r h i g h li g h te d

t h e r e a s a p a r ti c u la r s ta t e m e n t f o r y o u r a t t e n t io n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P le a s e r e a d t h a t p a r t in t o t h e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
record?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t s ta t e s :
“ B e s t Ts h e n o l o p l e a s e r e v e r t t o Es t e l l e a s a m a t t e r
o f u r g e n c y.

Es t e l le p l e a s e a d v is e o n t h e q u a n t it i e s

t h a t y o u w o u ld r e q u i r e p e r d a y a n d o r p e r w e e k .
B e s t R e g a r d s E M L M o tl a k e . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d j u s t b e lo w t h a t s ig n a tu r e M r

M o t h l a k e i s i d e n ti f ie d a s t h e M a n a g i n g D ir e c t o r o f E M L ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A p o l o g i e s y e s M a n a g i n g D i r e c t o r ja C h a ir.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If y o u t h e n t u r n t o p a g e 1 6 .

There

a p p e a r s a n e m a i l o f r e s p o n s e f r o m y o u r s e l f a n d i t is s e n t o n t h e 9 J u n e
2 0 1 7 a t 1 0 : 3 2 t o E r i c o f E M L E n e r g y P T Y LT D a n d M r D a v e Al l e n b y is
CC’d on the email.

T h e s u b j e c t is ti tl e d R e : J e t F u e l o f S u n C it y

A ir p o r t . P l e a s e r e a d t h i s e m a il in t o t h e r e c o r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w Ms S e p t e m b e r w h y t h e s e e m a il s a r e in
r e v e r s e o r d e r ? Yo u s t a r t w i th o n e s in M a y h e r e a n d t h e n y o u g o – o r
d o I m is u n d e r s t a n d s o m e t h i n g ? J a t h e o n e s i n M a y a r e a f te r t h e o n e i n
June?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t i t is a n

e m a i l tr a i l . S o i n s t e a d o f t h e in d iv i d u a l e m a i ls h a v in g b e e n p r i n te d i t
is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t a n e m a i l tr a i l i s – a n e m a i l is – in a n e m a il
tr a i l
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e e m a i l t h a t y o u s h o u ld r e a d fi r s t y o u s h o u l d

Page 191 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
r e c e i v e fi r s t is o n e t h a t is i n M a y a n d n o t o n e th a t i s i n J u n e . T h e o n e
t h a t is in J u n e s h o u l d c o m e a ft e r th e o n e in M a y. H e r e a t p a g e 1 7 d o
you not have a May 2017, email and at page 16 you have a June 2017
email?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a d o y o u k n o w w h y th a t is s o ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t t h e J u n e

e m a i l is in r e s p o n s e t o th e M a y e m a il w h ic h is in r e s p o n s e t o …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s b u t t h a t m e a n s t h e e m a i l – M a y e m a i l s h o u l d

c o m e f ir s t . I f t h e J u n e e m a i l is – i f t h e J u n e – if t h e J u n e e m a il is i n
r e s p o n s e t o a M a y e m a il w e s h o u l d c o m e a c r o s s t h e M a y e m a il f ir s t , is
it n o t?

A n d th e n b e c a u s e th e p e r s o n w h o s e n t t h e M a y e m a i l w o u l d

h a v e s e n t i t i n M a y a n d t h e n t h e p e r s o n w h o r e s p o n d e d to i t w o u l d h a v e
responded to it in June.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir I f u ll y a g r e e w i t h y o u . In t h i s
in s t a n c e t h o u g h i t a p p e a r s t h a t i n s t e a d o f t h e m p r in t in g t h e i n d i v i d u a l
e m a i ls t h e y p r in t e d a s tr i n g o f e m a il s w h i c h c o n s e q u e n tl y …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h m u s t h a v e b e e n m ix e d b e c a u s e I – t h e r e c a n

b e a s tr in g b u t y o u c a n s e p a r a t e th e m s o t h a t w h e n o n e r e a d s o n e …
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

G e ts t h e p i c tu r e a s i t e v o l v e d o v e r a m o n t h o r o v e r

w e e k s y o u d o n o t r e a d – y o u d o n o t r e a d a J u n e e m a il fir s t a n d t h e n
c o m e t o a M a y e m a il . Yo u fir s t r e a d t h e M a y e m a il t h e n y o u c o m e to
t h e J u n e e m a il .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I g u e s s – y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t I a m t a lk in g

a b o u t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s y o u k n o w I c e r t a i n l y h e a r y o u

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a t t h e o r d e r is a l m o s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d …
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In r e v e r s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t t h e …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is i n r e v e r s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t t h e M a y e m a i ls w o u l d h a v e c o m e b e fo r e in t h e

s e q u e n c e o f d o c u m e n ts .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e J u n e e m a il s c o m e a ft e r. S o a s – s o t h a t
a s y o u r e a d a n d y o u g o t h r o u g h t h e a n n e x u r e s y o u c a n fo ll o w h o w th e
e v e n t s a n d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e v o lv e d i n a c t u a l i n r e a li ty.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

I w i ll b e p le a s e d t o g e t i n s tr u c t io n s

fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s a s t o w h y i t w a s p r i n t e d o ff i n t h is fa s h io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e t h a t s o m e b o d y ju s t d i d n o t …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As o p p o s e d t o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M ig h t n o t h a v e p a i d a tt e n t io n b u t o t h e r w is e o n e c a n

e a s i ly g e t c o n f u s e d .

A lr i g h t l e t u s c o n ti n u e .

I f y o u d o fi n d a s o u n d

e x p l a n a t io n y o u w o u ld le t m e k n o w i f n o t i f th e r e is a c h a n c e o f

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a r r a n g in g th e m in te r ms o f d a t e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h w h a t w o u ld h a v e
h a p p e n e d i n r e a l i ty.

A s I s a y if I s e n t y o u a n e m a il t o d a y a n d y o u

r e s p o n d t o m o r r o w i n th e fi l e I s h o u l d n o t c o m e a c r o s s t o m o r r o w ’s e m a il
r e s p o n s e b e f o r e I c o m e a c r o s s th e o n e to w h ic h y o u r e s p o n d t o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Chair I have been informed that as I
h a v e a lr e a d y a l l u d e d t h o s e th a t i t is a n e m a il tr a i l w i t h t h e m o s t r e c e n t
e m a i l b e in g o n t o p a n d s o c o n s t …
CHAIRPERSON: That does not explain anything.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th e m o s t r e c e n t e m a il t h e n o n p a g e
1 6 is s e n t fr o m y o u r s e l f to E r i c o f E M L E n e r g y P T Y LT D o n w h ic h M r
D a v e A l le n b y is c o p i e d a n d t h e s u b je c t ti t le is J e t F u e l t o S u n C i ty
A ir p o r t . C a n y o u p le a s e r e a d y o u r e m a i l i n t o t h e r e c o r d ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h e e m a i l s ta t e s :
“ G o o d d a y Er ic , tr u s t y o u a r e w e l l .

As per our

t e l e p h o n ic d is c u s s i o n t h i s m o r n i n g k in d l y n o t e t h a t
S A E x p r e s s w il l b e l o o k i n g a t a r o u n d 8 5 0 0 l i tr e s o f
je t A 1 f u e l p e r w e e k f o r S u n C i t y.
20

The current

s c h e d u l e i s s t il l r u n n i n g a t t w o f li g h t s o n M o n d a y a n d
t w o fl i g h ts o n F r i d a y.

K i n d ly p r o v id e u s w i t h a

q u o t a t i o n th a t in c l u d e s th e d e l iv e r y o f t h e f u e l t o S u n
C i ty. K in d R e g a r d s , Es t e l l e . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o i n l i g h t o f y o u r e a r l ie r

e v i d e n c e M s L o o c k y o u r r e s p o n s e w h ic h w a s in l in e w it h t h e r e q u e s t f o r

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
q u o t a t i o n t h a t y o u s e n t Mr E r i c M o t l h a k e i s t o d o v e t a i l w it h a n y
e n g a g e m e n ts t h a t S A E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l w a s h a v i n g w i t h E M L ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

D id y o u k n o w w h e t h e r o r n o t S A

E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l w a s e n g a g e d i n a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w i t h E M L a t
t h e ti m e ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I was under the

u n d e r s ta n d i n g fr o m m y

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m my g e n e r a l m a n a g e r t h a t Te c h n ic a l w a s a l r e a d y i n
d is c u s s io n s w i t h E M L a t t h e ti m e .
10

ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

Did

you

do

any

in d e p e n d e n t

in v e s t i g a t io n s o n y o u r s id e t o e s ta b l is h w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s i n f a c t a
p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s in p l a y b e t w e e n S A E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l a n d E M L ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I c a n ju s t r e c a l l a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M r P e t e r

C o r v e r s t a ti n g th a t t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y d is c u s s in g t h i n g s w it h E M L b u t n o
I d id n o t c h e c k u p o n w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e b u s y w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I t h e n a s k y o u to t u r n t o th e n e x t
20

a n n e x u r e t o o u r a ff id a v i t a n d t h a t i s o n p a g e 2 1 o f t h e b u n d l e . T h is is
a n e m a i l fr o m M r D a v e A ll a n b y s e n t F r i d a y M a y 1 8 , 2 0 1 7 a t 4 : 4 3 p m
a n d i t is s e n t t o S a m u e l V Il a k a z i c o p i e d o n th is e m a i l is M a u r e e n
J a c o b s a n d E s t e l l e L o o c k b e i n g y o u r s e l f a n d t h e s u b j e c t is t i tl e d “ F u e l
a t S u n C i ty a n d D e n e l ” . W h a t is t h e r e le v a n c e o f D e n e l ?
MS

ESTELLE

LOOCK:

Denel

is

where

Page 195 of 228

th e

te c h n ic a l

heavy

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
m a in t e n a n c e to o k p l a c e o n o u r a ir c r a f t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o b a s e d o n t h e s u b j e c t ti t le it

r e a l ly d e a ls w i th tw o p r i m a r y r e q u ir e m e n ts .

O n e b e in g S u n C i ty o r

r a th e r fu e l a t S u n C i ty a n d t h e o th e r b e in g D e n e l Te c h n ic a l , is th a t
r ig h t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d th is p a r tic u la r

e m a i l is o n e w h i c h i s s e n t fr o m M r A l la n b y t o Mr Vi la k a z i w h ic h in f o r m s
t h e m a b o u t th e a l t e r n a t e f u e l s u p p ly f o r P il a n e s b e r g t h a t h a v e b e e n
10

“ u n e a r t h e d ” is th a t r i g h t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t E r ic

M o t lh a k e i s i d e n ti f ie d a s t h e C E O o f E M L E n e r g y i n th is e m a i l ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And then below contact number can
y o u p le a s e r e a d t h e la s t t w o s e n t e n c e s i n t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : B e lo w t h e c o n ta c t n u m b e r ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
20

“ H e s a y s h e c a n s e n d a f u e l b o w s e r t o P il a n e s b e r g
f o r u s a n d c a n a ls o a s s is t in f u e l li n g o u r a i r c r a ft a t
D e n e l w h e r e h e is b a s e d . P l e a s e f o ll o w t h r o u g h w i t h
him as fuel at NTY is a major issue necessitating
t h a t o u r N T Y C a p e To w n fl i g h t h a s to r o u t e t h r o u g h
J o h a n n e s b u r g fo r a f u e l u p l i f t. ”

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t is N T Y ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is t h e a b b r e v i a ti o n f o r S u n C i ty.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o w h e n r e fe r e n c e i s m a d e t o a fu e l
b o w s e r i s i t r e a s o n a b le to a s s u m e th a t i t w o u ld h a v e in c l u d e d t h e n t h e
s u p p ly o f j e t A 1 f u e l?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I w o u l d s a y s o y e s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o t h a t w o u l d t h e n a c c o r d w i th

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n w a s t o o b t a i n a q u o t a ti o n
fr o m E M L ?
10

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t o n

p a g e 3 ta lk s a b o u t e c o n o m ie s o f s c a l e a n d in p a r t ic u l a r o n th e la s t
s e n te n c e y o u ta lk t o M r C o r v e r i n fo r m in g y o u a b o u t e c o n o m i e s o f s c a l e .
C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a in t o t h e C h a i r w h a t e x a c t ly is m e a n t i n t h a t l a s t
li n e o f t h is p a r a g r a p h ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : W h e n y o u r e fe r to e c o n o m i e s o f s c a l e y o u r e f e r
t o th e m o r e y o u o r d e r th e b e t te r p r i c e y o u g e t i f I c a n p u t i t i n s h o r t
C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d s o is t h a t t o b e u n d e r s t o o d

b a s e d o n th e t w o r e q u ir e m e n ts th a t w e r e n e e d e d s u c h b e i n g j e t f u e l
a n d P il a n e s b e r g a n d th e r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r r e fu e ll in g a n d d e f u e li n g o r
s o r r y d e fu e li n g a n d r e f u e ll i n g a t D e n e l O R T I A ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o y o u r e q u e s t t h e q u o ta t io n , y o u

a r e r e q u e s t e d t o p r o v i d e q u a n ti t ie s t h a t a r e n e e d e d o f f u e l i n

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P il a n e s b e r g w h a t d o y o u d o w h e n y o u r e c e i v e t h is r e q u e s t f o r
q u a n ti ti e s ? Ar e y o u in a p o s i ti o n t o p r o v i d e s u c h i n f o r m a t io n ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Q u a n t i ti e s I c a n n o t w o r k o u t .

SA Express at

t h e t i m e h a d a s t a ff m e m b e r w h ic h i s G a v i n F o u r i e w h ic h a ls o m a d e a n
a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w a s t h e f u e l s p e c i a l is t t h a t w o r k e d o u t t h e r e le v a n t
r e q u ir e m e n t s , d is t a n c e tr a v e l le d v e r s u s f u e l t o b e u s e d C h a ir. I w o u ld
a p p r o a c h – I w o u ld h a v e a p p r o a c h e d G a v i n t o g iv e m e t h e q u a n ti t ie s to
m a k e s u r e th a t i t i s t h e c o r r e c t n u m b e r C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d y o u a p p r o a c h M r G a v in F o u r i e t o
10

do so?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s I d i d C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir a c c o r d in g t o t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t

h a s b e e n s u b m i t t e d Mr G a v in F o u r i e h a s b e e n – h e w a s a p p o i n te d a s
t h e A i r c r a ft P e r f o r m a n c e E n g i n e e r e m p l o y e d b y S A E x p r e s s .

How

w o u ld y o u e x p l a in t h e w o r k i n g r e l a t i o n s h ip b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r
G a v in F o u r i e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : W e h a d a v e r y g o o d w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h i p C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s
20

i n fo r m

or

And so how did his role and

c o ll a b o r a t e

with

your

role

and

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

O n c e r ta in e le m e n t s o f o u r w o r k s – i n o u r

w o r k i n g s p a c e w e a s s is t e d o n e a n o t h e r. F o r h i m I n e e d e d a s s is t a n c e
w i t h – h e w o u l d n o r m a l ly w o r k o u t w h ic h c o u n tr ie s w e w o u l d fl y o v e r t o
a n o t h e r d e s ti n a ti o n w h i c h t h e n c a m e b a c k to m e v e r i fy in g i n v o ic e s fo r
c e r t a i n AT M S ’s o v e r f li g h t c h a r g e s a n d th i n g s li k e t h a t a n d I a s s is te d

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
h i m o n th e o t h e r h a n d w i t h r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ta t io n f o r p r o c u r e m e n t if
h e n e e d s o u r c i n g r e g a r d in g p la n n i n g o r r e q u ir e m e n t s r e la t in g t o h is
w o r k C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Were you – were you and Mr Gavin

F o u r i e b a s e d a t th e s a m e lo c a t io n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : M e a n d G a v in s h a r e d a n o ff ic e C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o y o u h a d q u i te a c l o s e w o r k i n g

r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In s u p p o r t o f e a c h o t h e r ’s f u n c t i o n s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t a f t e r y o u

c o m m u n ic a te d t h e li tr e r e q u i r e m e n ts – th e q u a n ti ty r e q u ir e m e n t s o f j e t
f u e l t o M r M o tl h a k e y o u h a d a ls o i n fo r m e d M r A ll a n b y a b o u t i t .

Or

r a th e r w a s M r Al l a n b y f u l ly a w a r e o f e x a c t ly w h a t t h o s e q u a n ti t ie s
were?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

As the norm him being my General Manager I

w o u ld c o p y h i m i n o n e v e r y th in g t h a t I h a v e d o n e e s p e c i a l ly i f h e h a s
in s t r u c t e d m e t o d o s o m e t h i n g I w o u l d c o p y h i m i n s o t h a t h e c o u l d s e e
20

t h a t I h a v e d o n e i t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t is c e r ta i n ly e v i d e n t f r o m t h e
e m a i l th a t y o u r e a d in t o th e r e c o r d o n th e 9 J u n e 2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o o n c e y o u r e c e i v e t h e q u a n ti t ie s

n e e d e d a n d y o u c o m m u n ic a te t h a t h o w l o n g d o y o u r e m a i n t o b e p a r t o f

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t h e p r o c e s s t o s o lv e th is o p e r a ti o n a l n e e d ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

A f t e r I n o t if i e d I c o p y D a v e A ll a n b y in I w a s

b a s ic a lly t o ta ll y o u t o f th is p r o c e s s c o m p le t e ly C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d s o y o u r k n o w le d g e a s t o w h a t

h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f te r is b y a n d l a r g e i n fo r me d b y d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u
h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d b y t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s t ig a t o r s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . I f I c a n a s k y o u to tu r n
t o p a g e 2 5 . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th is d o c u m e n t is t h e a v ia t io n f u e l s e r v ic e
10

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s a n d S o u th A f r i c a n E x p r e s s
A ir w a y s P T Y LT D ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

A n d th is i s in f a c t t h e

a g r e e m e n t w h ic h r e g u l a te s th e p r o v i – th e p r o – th e s u p p ly o f f u e l t o
S A E x p r e s s A ir c r a f ts a t A C S A o w n e d a ir p o r ts ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . A n d i f I c a n t h e n ju s t a s k
y o u q u ic k ly t o t u r n t o p a g e 4 6 o f t h e b u n d l e .

Is it correct that this

a g r e e m e n t w a s c o n c lu d e d o n t h e 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 11 ?
20

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is th is a g r e e m e n t s t il l i n p la c e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t i t i s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a n k y o u .

Once you were – once

y o u d i d w h a t y o u n e e d e d t o d o in o b ta i n i n g th e li t e r a g e , p a s s i n g i t o n t o
M r M o tl h a k e w h o to o k o v e r t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f d e a l in g w i t h th e

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
P il a n e s b e r g j e t fu e l r e q u ir e m e n t?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I t w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o D o c t o r S a m u e l Vil a k a z i

w h ic h w a s t h e C P O , C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r o f S A E x p r e s s a t th e
ti m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B a s e d o n y o u r k n o w le d g e o f w h a t

h a d tr a n s p ir e d u p t o t h is p o i n t w e r e p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s
f o ll o w e d ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : U p t o th e p o in t o f w h e r e w e a r e n o w ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
10

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I n m y a ff i d a v i t . I b e li e v e n o b e c a u s e s o u r c i n g
should have been done through a procurement process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And that was not done?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o t h a t w a s n o t d o n e C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A f te r y o u t h e n m a d e t h e r e q u e s t f o r
t h e q u o t a ti o n p r o v i d e d t h e q u a n ti t ie s d i d y o u e v e r s e e a c o p y o f t h e
q u o t a t i o n fr o m E M L a t a n y p o i n t i n t i m e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o I d i d n o t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e n e x t p a r t o f y o u r a ff id a v i t t a l k s

t o d i ff e r e n t p r o c e s s e s t h a t w e r e f o l lo w e d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h i s
20

tr a n s a c ti o n . I f I c a n – w e a r e o n p a g e 4 a n d fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 1 5 t o 1 7
y o u t a lk a b o u t a W h a t s a p p r o u n d r o b i n a p p r o v a l .

Ar e y o u a w a r e o f

when a round robin approval is used within SA Express?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I t i s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t it is w h e n th e r e i s
a n e m e r g e n c y s i t u a t io n .

A ir c r a f t o n g r o u n d fo r e x a m p l e w h e r e a

s e r v ic e is s o u r g e n tl y r e q u ir e d t h a t i t c a n n o t t a k e a lo n g p r o c e s s to g e t

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t h e ty p e o f s e r v ic e . Th a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f it C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. And now can I ask you to
t u r n to p a g e 4 8 w h ic h is a n e x c h a n g e o f W h a t s a p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n s
b e t w e e n m e m b e r s o f t h e b id a d j u d i c a t io n c o m m i t t e e a s y o u h a v e b e e n
in f o r m e d . J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d w h o is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y 4 8 ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: 48.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is p a g e a t 4 8 is n o t v e r y c l e a r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I h a v e a s k e d t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s t o

p r o v i d e a c le a r e r c o p y a n d u n f o r tu n a t e ly w e d o n o t h a v e o n e y e t b u t a s
s o o n a s o n e b e c o m e s a v a il a b l e i t w i ll b e m a d e a v a i la b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a th e le g a l te a m m u s t a l w a y s t r y in a d v a n c e o f t h e

h e a r in g t o c h e c k a ll c o p i e s t h a t a r e n o t c l e a r a n d t r y a n d o b t a i n c le a r e r
c o p i e s s o th a t o n c e th e h e a r i n g – t h e w i t n e s s s t a r ts w e d o n o t h a v e t o
b e lo o k i n g f o r c l e a r e r c o p i e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p le a s e s C h a i r I h a d h o p e d t o

r e c e i v e a c le a r e r c o p y o r e v e n a b i g g e r c o p y b y n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g f o r t h c o m in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a i r I n o t e t h a t i t is I a m n o t s u r e i f
m y w a tc h i s r i g h t b u t i t is n e a r ly q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O r it is j u s t a f t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h m o r e t i m e d o w e s t il l n e e d t o …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w il l n e e d s o m e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o i n t e r m s o f y o u r e s t i m a ti o n ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I w il l c e r t a i n ly n e e d s o m e ti m e .

P r o b a b ly a n h o u r a n d a h a l f?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Pr o b a b ly a n h o u r a n d a h a lf o r s o .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e l l tr y a n d j u s t f o c u s o n th e i m p o r t a n t t h in g s .

c a n g o u p t o fi v e l e t u s s e e w h e t h e r w e c a n n o t fi n i s h b y f iv e .

We
If we

h a v e n o t f i n is h e d b y t h e n w e c a n r e a s s e s s . M s L o o c k is t h a t fi n e w i th
y o u i f w e c o n ti n u e b e y o n d f o u r o ’c l o c k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s t h a t i s f i n e w i t h m e t h a n k y o u C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t f in e ? O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w il l c e r t a i n ly d o my b e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W i t h i n t h a t ti m e f r a m e . M s L o o c k a r e
y o u a w a r e o f th is r o u n d r o b i n r e s o lu t io n a t a ll ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o I a m n o t C h a ir.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Did you become aware of it at some
la t e r s t a g e i f r e fe r e n c e i s m a d e to p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t t h a t i s a c c o r d in g t o a n e m a i l

that I read ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Which was when?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : O n th e 1 8 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 7 .

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A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d th a t w a s c e r t a i n l y l o n g a f te r th e
a p p r o v a l w a s g r a n t e d o n t h e 1 J u ly 2 0 1 7 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C h a ir h a v i n g s t u d i e d t h i s i n a – a s

b e s t a s p o s s i b le m a y I p r o c e e d t o ju s t r e a d th e r e le v a n t s e c t io n s o f t h i s
W h a t s a p p r e c o r d in t o th e – i n t o t h e r e c o r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d 4 8 ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 4 8 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u c a n r e a d i f y o u a r e a b l e to w h o s a y s w h a t to
10

whom.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h e f ir s t c o m m u n i c a t io n is b y

M r S a m Vi l a k a z i a n d t h a t i s o n t h e 1 J u l y 2 0 1 7 a t 11 .2 2 w h ic h r e a d s
B A C m e m b e r s p l e a s e c h e c k y o u r e m a i ls a n d a s s is t w i t h r o u n d r o b i n
a p p r o v a l n e e d e d u r g e n t ly i n r e s p e c t o f o r i r o N M E . M s L o o c k N M E i s
t h a t th e r e g is tr a ti o n i d e n t if ic a ti o n c o d e o f o n e o f y o u r a ir c r a f t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t th a t is N o v e m b e r M i k e E c h o it is
a C R J 2 0 0 a ir c r a ft .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u .

At the time how many

a ir c r a f t w e r e t h e r e a s p a r t o f th e S A E x p r e s s f le e t ?
20

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I s p e a k u n d e r c o r r e c t io n b u t a t t h e ti m e i t w a s
s c h e d u l e o f a r o u n d f o u r te e n a ir c r a f t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

T h e n e x t li n e i s b y M r

D a v e A ll a n b y s e n t o n t h e s a m e d a t e o f 1 J u l y 2 0 1 7 tw o m i n u t e s a f t e r
t h e p r e v i o u s m e s s a g e a t 11 .2 4 w h i c h r e a d s :
N M N d e f u e li n g r e q u ir e m e n t .

I t i s fo r b o t h N M E a n d

Tw o li n e s d o w n Mr D a v e A ll a n b y t h e n

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g iv e s h is a p p r o v a l i n a m e s s a g e a t 11 . 2 7 o n t h e s a m e d a te w h ic h
in f o r m s S a m y o u h a v e m y e m a i l c o n fir m i n g a p p r o v a l .

B e lo w t h a t

r e fe r e n c e t h a t li n e is a li n e f r o m M e r r i a m M o c h o e le w h o is t h a t M s
Loock?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : M e r r i a m w a s th e G M f o r L e g a l C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t r o l e d id s h e p l a y in t h e b id
a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e a t t h e ti m e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : S h e w a s t h e c h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B A C C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you. And her…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g i v e t h e s p e ll in g fo r th e s u r n a m e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b le m C h a ir.

I t is a l s o

r e fe r e n c e d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 .3 o n p a g e 5 o f t h e a ffi d a v i t a n d i t i s s p e l t
s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t t o w h a t i s r e fl e c t e d h e r e a n d Ms L o o c k y o u w i ll c o r r e c t
m e if it is M e r r i a m a n d th e s u r n a m e is M o c h o e le ?
MS EST ELLE LOOCK: That is correct the I needs to be replaced by an
e. Merriam Mochoele.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Mochoele.
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Mochoele.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Thank you.

T h e m e s s a g e fr o m M s

M o c h o e l e a t 11 . 3 0 o n t h e s a m e d a te o f 1 J u ly 2 0 1 7 r e a d s : H i S a m w h a t
is E M L ?

T h e r e s p o n s e to t h a t a t t h e s a m e t i m e a n d s e c o n d o f 11 :3 0

fr o m S a m Vi la k a z i i n f o r m s : F u e l s u p p l ie r b a s e d a t D e n e l . I n r e s p o n s e
M s M o c h o e le …
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Mochoele ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M o c h o e l e a p o l o g i e s i n f o r m s a t 11 : 3 2

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t h a t th is i s f o r t h e s u p p ly o f f u e l w h e r e ?

S o r r y I d o n o t h a v e th e

b a c k g r o u n d f a c ts . To w h ic h S a m Vi la k a z i r e s p o n d s 1 mi n u te la t e r w h a t
a p p e a r s to b e o n e m i n u t e l a t e r a t O R T I A .

On the next page of 49

a c c o r d i n g to t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s t h i s p a r t i c u l a r m e s s a g e is w r i t t e n b y
G a te l e N k a la w h o is M s N k a la M s L o o c k ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

She was the general manager of Human

C a p it a l.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And this message was sent then at

11 : 4 1 o n t h e s a m e d a te o f 1 J u ly 2 0 1 7 w h ic h r e a d s :
10

Hi Sam have

r e s p o n d e d t o y o u r m a i l I d i d n o t s e e th e s u b m i s s i o n b u t a g a i n I d i d n o t
a tt e n d B A C y e s t e r d a y s o a p p r o v e d in p r i n c i p le s o a s t o a v o i d A O G .
W h a t is A O G M s L o o c k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is A ir c r a f t o n G r o u n d C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d y o u – is i t c o r r e c t th a t t h e s u p p ly
c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p o l ic y d e a ls s p e c i fi c a ll y w i t h A ir c r a ft o n G r o u n d b u t
w i t h i n t h e th r e s h o ld s o f R 5 0 0 u n l e s s i t w a s a t y p o g r a p h i c a l e r r o r a n d
R 1 . 5 m il li o n .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

That is correct.

T h e r e is r e f e r e n c e to t h a t i n

t h e p o li c y C h a ir.
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f o n e l o o k s a b it f u r t h e r d o w n o n t h e
s a m e p a g e o f 4 9 t h e r e i s a n – a r e s p o n s e fr o m M r M a r k S h e ll e y. S p e l t
M - A- R - K , S h e ll e y S- H - E - L - L - E- Y. W h o is M r M a r k S h e l ly M s L o o c k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : H e w a s t h e C h i e f F in a n c i a l O ff ic e r a t t h e t i m e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u a n d h i s m e s s a g e a t 11 : 4 2
reads:

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
“ H i , I d o n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o a n e m a il . P l e a s e u s e
t h is m e s s a g e a s a p p r o v a l . ”
Is it c o r r e c t t h a t i t i s t o b e i n f e r r e d th a t h e d i d n o t – h e a p p r o v e d
w i t h o u t s e e i n g th e c o n t e n t o f a n e m a il w h ic h w a s r e la t iv e t o t h e – t o
t h is a p p r o v a l?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

R e a d in g i t i n t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e W h a ts A p p I

w o u ld s a y y e s C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is r e s p o n d e d t o i n t h e n e x t li n e b y
M s M e r r ia m M o c h o e le .
10

MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Mochoele.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o c h o e le .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Mochoele.
MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Mochoele yes.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Fo r g e tt i n g th e s u r n a m e w r o n g -

h u m b l e a p o l o g i e s – a t 11 : 4 2 w h i c h s a y s :
“ T h i s w a s n o t d is c u s s e d a t B A C y e s te r d a y. T h a n k s
f o r t h e e x p l a n a ti o n . I w i ll a p p r o v e a n e m a il b u t w i ll
n e e d t o m e e t to r a t i fy t h e d e c is io n b a s e d o n a
20

s u b m i tt e d m e m o r a n d u m . ”
A t 11 : 4 8 o r w h a t a p p e a r s to b e 11 : 4 8 S a m Vi la k a z i r e s p o n d s a n d s a y s :
“ H i K g a t il e th e r e w a s n o s u b m is s io n b u t a c c o r d i n g
t o C a p t a i n A l le n b y t h e y a r e a b l e t o a s s i s t u s o n t h e
h e a v y m a i n te n a n c e s i d e a n d S u n C i ty. ”
W h e n r e fe r e n c e is m a d e to h e a v y m a in t e n a n c e s id e a t S u n C i ty w h a t is

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t h e – y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r i n f e r e n c e o f t h e s c o p e o f t h is a p p r o v a l t h a t
is s o u g h t?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I w o u l d – a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t is d is c u s s e d h e r e

t h e r e f e r e n c e is h e a v y m a i n te n a n c e s i d e a n d S u n C i ty.

M e a n in g it

w o u ld b e a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r D e n e l w h ic h i s th e d e f u e li n g a n d r e fu e l li n g
a n d a ls o t h e n th e fu e l J e t A 1 Fu e l s u p p l y t o Pi l a n e s b e r g S u n C i ty.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n i f w e t u r n to p a g e 5 1 a t th e
t o p t h e r e is a m e s s a g e fr o m M r D a v e Al le n b y o n t h e s a m e d a t e o f
1 J u ly 2 0 1 7 a t 11 : 4 9 w h ic h r e a d s :
10

“EML have fuel tankers based at Denel.

We have

b e g u n e n g a g e m e n t w i th th e m a s a p o t e n t ia l s o l u ti o n
t o o u r fu e l s u p p l y p r o b l e m s a t N T Y. ”
B e in g S u n C i ty - is t h a t r i g h t M s L o o c k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is – th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e m e s s a g e s c o n t in u e s to r e a d :
“ T h e ir

g e o g r a p h ic a l

l o c a l i ty

to

our

heavy

m a in t e n a n c e f a c i li ty a t D e n e l m a k e s th e m i d e a l t o
a s s is t w i th f u e ll i n g a n d d e f u e l in g o n a ir c r a f t o n t h a t
s id e o f th e a ir p o r t . O th e r w i s e w e c a n w a i t 2 4 h o u r s
20

f o r a d e d ic a t e d d e f u e l b o w s e r f r o m a p r o n s id e . W e
c u r r e n tly n e e d t w o a ir c r a ft d e f u e l e d i n o r d e r t o
c a r r y o u t w o r k to g e t th e m b a c k i n t h e s k y.
t h is

h e lp s

with

c l a r i f ic a ti o n ,

th a n k

you

Hope
BAC

Members.”
A n d i n r e s p o n s e t o th a t i s a m e s s a g e fr o m M r Vic t o r X a b a

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w h ic h i s s e n t a t 11 : 5 2 a n d r e a d s :
“ A p p r o v e d s u b je c t t o B A C r a ti f ic a t i o n . ”
According

to

th is

c o m m u n ic a ti o n

exchange

Ms L o o c k

it

c e r t a i n l y a p p e a r s t h a t t h e B i d A d ju d ic a t i o n C o m m i t t e e a p p r o v e d b y w a y
o f a r o u n d r o b in r e s o l u ti o n a s c o p e o f a p p r o v a l w h ic h in c l u d e d t h e f u e l
r e q u ir e m e n t a t P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t a n d t h e r e q u ir e m e n t fo r d e f u e li n g
a n d r e f u e ll i n g a t – b y S A E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l b a s e d a t D e n e l a t O R T I A .
Is t h a t r ig h t?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:
10

r o u n d r o b in .

T h a t is c o r r e c t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e W h a ts A p p

I c a n s e e t h a t i t i s f o r t h e D e n e l s i d e a n d a ls o f o r th e

P il a n e s b e r g s id e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D o e s i t e x t e n d to a n y o t h e r a ir p o r t s ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

No.

W e d i d n o t h a v e a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r o t h e r

a ir p o r ts C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o i t i s o n ly t w o lo c a t io n s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t i s c o r r e c t y e s . T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g
a s w e ll . It w a s o n ly fo r t h e t w o s e c ti o n s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
20

Thank you.

N o w if w e c a n t u r n to

Yo u n o w a d d r e s s fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 8 t o

p a r a g r a p h 2 4 a m o ti v a t io n f o r d e v ia t io n f r o m t h e b id p r o c e s s . D o y o u
h a v e a n y p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f t h e m o t iv a ti o n t o d e v i a t e M s L o o c k ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e d e v i a ti o n d o n e i n r e s p e c t o f – o f t h is

p r o c e s s w a s n o t d o n e b y m y s e l f. I t w a s d o n e b y m y G e n e r a l M a n a g e r –
D a v e A ll e n b y - C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And is that the ordinary process that

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n fo ll o w e d ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

W h a t n o r m a lly h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t I d r e w u p a

d o c u m e n t – a d e v ia t io n d o c u m e n t a n d s u b m i t i t f o r s ig n a t u r e s . I n t h is
in s t a n c e my G e n e r a l M a n a g e r d r e w u p t h e d e v i a ti o n h i ms e lf C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d h o w d i d y o u fi n d o u t a b o u t th is

d e v i a ti o n M s L o o c k ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I n o r m a lly h a d m e e t i n g s w i t h my G e n e r a l

M a n a g e r s t o v e r if y a n d a u t h o r is e e x p e n s e s – i n v o i c e s – a n d o n o n e
o c c a s i o n h e d id m e n ti o n t h a t t h e r e is a d e v ia t io n a n d I d i d s e e it in h i s
10

o ffic e C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u th e n t o t u r n t o p a g e 5 3
p l e a s e ? Is t h is in fa c t th e m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h m o t iv a te s t h e d e v i a t i o n
fr o m b i d p r o c e s s i n r e l a ti o n t o s e r v ic e s to b e c o n tr a c t e d w i t h E M L ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: This memorandum is – for the record
– d a t e d 5 J u l y 2 0 1 7 a n d t h e p u r p o s e o f th e m e m o r a n d u m is o u t li n e d i n
p a r a g r a p h 1 w h ic h r e a d s o n e p o in t – r a t h e r :
“ T h e p u r p o s e o f th is m e m o r a n d u m is 1 .1 :

to

r e q u e s t a p p r o v a l t o c o n tr a c t w i th E M L E n g i n e e r s
a n d C o n s tr u c t io n tr a d in g a s E M L E n e r g y f o r t h e

20

s u p p ly o f f u e l a t Pi l a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t a n d p e r io d ic
f u e ll in g a n d d e f u e li n g a s t h e S A E x p r e s s H e a v y
M a in t e n a n c e

F a c il it y

at

Denel

I n t e r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t. ”
And 1.2:

Page 210 of 228

OR

Ta m b o

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
“ To r e q u e s t a p p r o v a l t o d e v ia t e fr o m th e n o r m a l b i d
p l a n n in g

a c ti v i ti e s

r e la t in g

to

the

r e v ie w

and

approval of EML …”
A n d i t g o e s fu r t h e r i n – in s o f a r a s th e p r o c e s s e s a r e c o n c e r n e d . I s it
c o r r e c t t h a t th e r e a r e t w o b a c k g r o u n d s w h i c h a r e o u tl in e d in t h is
memorandum Ms Loock?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

the

fir s t

background

t a lk s

s p e c i f ic a l ly t o t h e f u e l s u p p l y r e q u ir e m e n t a t P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t
10

o u t li n e d fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 2 . 1 to 2 .9 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n p a r t ic u l a r a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .9 o n

p a g e 5 4 . I t r e a d s t h a t:
“ E M L E n e r g y h a v e s u b m it t e d a p r o p o s a l in w h i c h
they would supply fuel to the SAX Aircraft at NTY
v ia m o b il e fu e l b o w s e r. ”
So if there was any query about whether or not EML ought to
h a v e p r o v id e d f u e l w a s t h a t – w a s t h a t d o u b t r e s o lv e d in t h i s
paragraph?
20

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s b e c a u s e th e p a r a g r a p h r e f e r s t o a lr e a d y a
p r o p o s a l C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u a n d s o t h e s c e n a r io t w o

w h ic h is o u tl in e d fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 3 .1 to 3 . 3 d e a ls w i th th e t e c h n ic a l
r e q u ir e m e n t o f d e f u e li n g a n d r e f u e ll i n g ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P a r a g r a p h 4 w h ic h ta lk s t o fi n a n c i a l

i m p l ic a t i o n s s a y s :
“ A d h o c a s p e r n e g o ti a te d c o n t r a c t . ”
W h a t w a s y o u r o b s e r v a t io n s o n th a t b e in g a m o t iv a ti o n i n r e la t io n t o
fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I f – i f a d e v ia t io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e fo r

e x a m p l e b y m y s e l f I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a
b e t t e r fi n a n c i a l s u m m a r y i n d ic a ti n g e x p e n s e s t o b e in c u r r e d b y S A
E x p r e s s . H e r e it j u s t s ta t e s a d h o c a s p e r n e g o t ia t e d c o n t r a c t w h ic h I
10

f e e l is n o t s u ff ic i e n t f o r t h is p r o c e s s …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Can you have …?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n y o u h a v e a c o n tr a c t b e f o r e a n

approval?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s th a t w h e n y o u i m p le m e n t a
d e v i a ti o n th e d e v ia t io n m u s t b e f u ll y a u t h o r is e d a n d g o e s – i t g o e s
t h r o u g h a p r o c e s s . O n c e i t is fu ll y a u t h o r is e d th e n o n ly c a n t h e L e g a l
D e p a r t m e n t a c t u a l ly s t a r t n e g o t ia t in g a n a g r e e m e n t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d th e n o n p a g e 5 5 p a r a g r a p h 5

w h ic h t a lk s to t h e r a ti o n a le fo r d e v i a ti o n f r o m b i d p r o c e s s . O n c e a g a in
in p a r a g r a p h 3 l i m it e d t o t w o a i r p o r ts . It is p a r a g r a p h 5 . 3 .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : 5 .3 .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n p a g e 5 5 . W h ic h t w o a ir p o r ts a r e
those?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

N T Y w h ic h is Pi l a n e s b e r g S u n C i t y a n d J N B

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
w h ic h is J o h a n n e s b u r g O R Ta m b o o n th e D e n e l p r e m is e s – it s t a te s
here …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 7 o u tl i n e s t h e

a p p r o v a l t h a t is r e q u e s te d a n d h a v i n g s t u d i e d t h e d o c u m e n t i t c e r t a i n ly
a l ig n s w i th t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e d o c u m e n t . W h e n o n e t a l k s – w h e n o n e
lo o k s a t p a g e 5 6 i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t a l l t h o s e p e r s o n s w h o h a d b e e n
in c l u d e d i n t h e W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e e n D a v e Al l e n b y, S a m
10

Vi la k a z i , M a r k S h e lly, M e r r i a m M o c h o e l e a n d Vi c to r X a b a i n fa c t s i g n e d
in a p p r o v a l o f th e m o ti v a t io n to d e v i a t e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e o n l y a d d i t io n a l p e r s o n t h e r e i s

Mpho Selepe?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

But as the DM of Finance recorded

o n t h i s p a g e s i m il a r ly M p h o S e le p e a p p r o v e d t h i s – th is m e m o r a n d u m ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f o n e c a n t h e n tu r n t o p a g e 8 o f y o u r
20

– o f th e b u n d l e . A t p a r a g r a p h …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

P a g e 5 6 is th a t w h e r e y o u w e r e ta lk in g

a b o u t a p p r o v a l a n d th e s ig n a tu r e s ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : E x c u s e m e C h a ir - a p o l o g i e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Were you at page 56?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t a p p r o v a l s ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h – w h ic h s ig n a t u r e s – w h e r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o o n
p a g e 5 6 ? Th e r e is o n e , t w o , th r e e , f o u r, fi v e , s ix - t h e n a m e s a r e g iv e n
o n t h e le f t h a n d s i d e . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s e e t h a t i n r e g a r d t o M e r r ia m M o c h o e l e th e r e i s
no

i n d i c a t io n

if

she

was

approving

or

d e c li n i n g .

a p p r o v e d /d e c li n e d a n d s h e d i d n o t c r o s s o u t a n y.
10

M a r k S h e ll e y

and

M p h o S e l e p e ’s

was

s i m p ly

–

Says

Same with

said

proposed

a c q u is i ti o n is b u d g e t e d .
S o t h a t is w h a t h e o r s h e w a s s i g n i n g fo r I g u e s s . S o t h e o n e
w h o a p p e a r s t o h a v e a p p r o v e d is M r Vic t o r X a b a - th e C E O . W a s – w a s
h e t h e o n ly o n e w a s s u p p o s e d to a p p r o v e ?

Ms Loock was – was

M r X a b a t h e o n ly o n e w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o a p p r o v e ? Wa s h is a p p r o v a l
s u ffi c i e n t - a s f a r a s y o u k n o w ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

S i r o n a d e v i a t i o n y e s b u t w i th m y e x p e r i e n c e

w i t h d o i n g d e v ia t io n s e a c h s e c t io n h a s p r o v is i o n t o s a y a p p r o v e d o r
a n d t h e y n o r m a ll y m a r k t h e s e c ti o n i f t h e y d o a p p r o v e i t o r d is a p p r o v e
20

it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I n t h is i n s ta n c e I – I w o u l d b e li e v e t h a t t h e

A c ti n g C E O w o u l d h a v e o v e r r i d e i t o r b u t I w o u ld e x p e c t e v e r y s i n g l e
p e r s o n t o a c c e p t o r d e c li n e y e s . Th a t i s t h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u – d o y o u s e e w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t

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24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
Ms September?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir. I a m in d e b t e d t o y o u f o r
t h a t c la r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t u s t o – to b e s u r e w h o a p p r o v e d w h o d i d
n o t a p p r o v e . F r o m w h a t I s e e h e r e it l o o k s li k e o n ly M r X a b a a p p r o v e d .
T h e o t h e r p e r s o n s n a m e ly M s M e r r i a m M o c h o e le a n d M r M a r k S h e ll e y
w e r e e x p e c t e d t o e i t h e r a p p r o v e o r d is a p p r o v e o r a p p r o v e o r d e c li n e
a n d a l t h o u g h th e y s i g n e d b u t th e y d id n o t i n d i c a t e w h e t h e r th e y w e r e
a p p r o v in g o r d is a p p r o v i n g .
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C e r ta in l y th a t a p p e a r s o n t h e f a c e o f
the document.

A ll b u t o n e b e i n g M p h o S e le p e w e r e i n v o lv e d in t h e

r o u n d r o b i n a p p r o v a l w h o h a d a p p r o v e d t h a t p a r t ic u l a r a p p r o v a l a t t h e
ti m e n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h e f a c t t h a t I c e r t a i n ly t a k e y o u r p o in t C h a ir t h a t
it is u n c l e a r fr o m h e r e o t h e r th a n Vic t o r X a b a w h o e x p r e s s e d h e
a p p r o v e s it .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I t m a y w e ll b e th a t – m a y w e l l b e th a t i f th e y

a p p r o v e d b y w a y o f t h e r o u n d r o b in th a t is – th a t m i g h t b e g o o d e n o u g h
20

b u t i t i s j u s t i m p o r ta n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e d o n o t s a y t h e d o c u m e n t
s h o w s t h a t th e y a p p r o v e d i f it d o e s n o t s h o w t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e d .
D e f in i te ly M r X a b a i t s h o w s h i m t o h a v e a p p r o v e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir. I a m in d e b t e d t o y o u f o r
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c ti o n a n d c l a r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

If y o u – i t – i t m a y b e – it m a y b e t h a t it is n o t

p a r t ic u l a r s i g n i fi c a n t .

I ju s t w a n te d t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e a r e o n t h e

s a m e p a g e a s to w h o a p p r o v e d in te r ms o f t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d w h o d id
not.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I c e r ta i n ly a g r e e t h a t o n t h e f a c e o f i t
– i t is e x a c t ly a s y o u s a y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

D o y o u h a v e a n y f u r th e r c l a r i ty in

r e l a ti o n t o th a t M s L o o c k o u ts i d e o f w h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y i n f o r m e d t h e
C h a ir a b o u t ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

W h e n I lo o k a t th e d e v ia t i o n lik e t h is a n d t h e

s ig n a tu r e s a r e p l a c e d o n i t a n d e s p e c i a l ly w i t h th e s e p e o p l e a u t h o r i s i n g
t h e W h a t s A p p ’s I w o u l d b e li e v e t h a t t h e y a p p r o v e d i t b e c a u s e t h e y
s ig n e d t h e d o c u m e n t ir r e s p e c tiv e o f m a r k i n g i t a p p r o v e d o r d is a p p r o v e d
b u t t h a t w o u ld b e m y p e r s o n a l o p i n i o n o n t h is d o c u m e n t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

So you – you would say they approved but not

b e c a u s e o f t h i s d o c u m e n t?
20

MS ESTELL E LOOCK: Not because of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f th e r o u n d r o b in ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I n r e l a ti o n to t h e r o u n d r o b in t h a t e v e r y o n e

a p p r o v e d a n d p u t ti n g d o w n t h e ir s i g n a t u r e s o n t h e d o c u m e n t …

Page 216 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : M y p e r s o n a l o p in io n s ir w o u l d b e t h a t th e y h a v e
approved.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w e ll t h e d o c u m e n t m a d e p r o v is io n f o r e a c h o n e o f
t h e m t o i n d i c a t e w h e th e r t h e y a p p r o v e …
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t a p p r o v e a n d th e y d i d n o t m a k e a n y i n d ic a ti o n
except for Mr Xaba.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I a g r e e C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M r X a b a c r o s s e d o u t d is a p p r o v e d o r d e c l i n e d .

So

a p p r o v e d r e m a i n e d . T h a t is c l e a r.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is …
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y d i d n o t m a k e t h a t e l e c ti o n a n d t h e r e fo r e i t

b e c o m e s u n c l e a r w h e r e th e y s to o d u n ti l y o u r e a d it t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e
r o u n d r o b in i f y o u w a n t t o r e a d i t w i t h t h a t . O k a y, a lr ig h t . L e t u s ta k e
a s h o r t b r e a k f o r 1 0 m i n u te s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l r e s u m e s a t 2 0 t o fi v e . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
20

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s s e e h o w f a r w e a r e a b l e t o g o .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. P a g e 8 M s L o o c k
o f t h e b u n d l e a d d r e s s e s t w o l e t t e r s , th e fir s t le t t e r is a n a p p o i n t m e n t
le t t e r t o E M L E n e r g y a n d th e s e c o n d l e tt e r i s a “ to w h o m i t m a y

Page 217 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
c o n c e r n ” l e t te r. I f y o u c a n q u ic k ly f ir s t d e a l w it h t h e a p p o i n t m e n t l e t t e r
t o E M L E n e r g y, d o y o u h a v e , is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h i s l e t te r w a s g iv e n t o
y o u b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a t o r s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t ( m i c r o p h o n e o ff) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e s e c o n d l e t te r

w a s s i m i l a r ly g i v e n t o y o u b y th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s in v e s ti g a t o r s ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so do you have any personal

k n o w l e d g e o f th e s e le t t e r s ?
10

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o I d o n ’ t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
please.

If I can ask you to turn to page 93

C h a i r fo r t h e r e c o r d t h is l e t t e r i s a l e t t e r o n a n S A E x p r e s s

le t t e r h e a d , i t is s e n t b y M r S a m u e l Vi l i k a z i , th e C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t
O ff ic e r, d a t e d 5 J u l y 2 0 1 7 a n d i t ’s t i tl e d “ A w a r d fo r s u p p ly o f f u e l t o S A
E x p r e s s ” . I t i s f o r t h e a d d r e s s o f E M L E n e r g y b a s e d in K e m p t o n P a r k
a n d i t ’s a d d r e s s s p e c i fi c a ll y t o Er ic . It r e a d s :
“ T h i s le t t e r s e r v e s a s a fo r m a l c o n f ir m a ti o n th a t E M L E n e r g y
h a s b e e n a p p o i n te d f o r t h e a b o v e s e r v i c e .

Th is a w a r d is

s u b j e c t to t h e f o l l o w in g c o n d i ti o n :
20

1. Successful

n e g o t ia t io n

and

conclusion

of

a

contract

“ T h i s l e t t e r o f a w a r d is e ffe c tiv e fr o m 1 J u l y 2 0 1 7 .

W e tr u s t

between S A Express and EML Energy;
A n d t h e n a l i t tl e b i t f u r t h e r d o w n it r e a d s t h a t :

t h a t th is a w a r d s h a l l b e b e n e f ic ia l a n d f r u i t f u l to b o t h p a r t i e s .
Yo u r s i n c e r e ly ”

Page 218 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
M s L o o c k i n y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g b a s e d o n w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d s u c h
b e i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s t h e W h a ts a p p R o u n d R o b in a p p r o v a l o n t h e 1 s t o f
J u l y 2 0 1 7 a n d th e n th e d e v i a ti o n o n t h e 1 s t o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 s o r r y, w h a t’s
p r o b le m a t ic w i t h th e i s s u a n c e o f t h i s l e t t e r.
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Th is l e tt e r i s v e r y b r o a d , a n d i t’s g o t n o

s p e c i f ic a ti o n o n t h e P i l a n e s b e r g o r th e fu e ll in g r e q u ir e m e n t s a t
Te c h n i c a l . I t s ta t e s a w a r d f o r s u p p l y o f f u e l t o S A E x p r e s s , w h ic h i s
e x tr e m e l y b r o a d C h a ir.
ADV
10

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

Thank

you.

Tw o

days

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Do

you

have

any

u n d e r s t a n d in g

of

what

the

s ig n if ic a n c e w a s a t a p r a c tic a l le v e l o f t h e s t a t e m e n t i n th e l e t t e r th a t
t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s w i t h e ffe c t fr o m 1 J u l y 2 0 1 7 in c ir c u m s t a n c e s
w h e r e th e l e t t e r i ts e l f w a s s i g n e d o n t h e 5 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 7 ? M s L o o c k ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

N o s ir I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e , th is t o o k p l a c e

w i t h o u t m y k n o w l e d g e o f i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y th e a p p o i n t m e n t w o u l d h a v e t o b e b a c k d a t e d ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d s o y e s s ir C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

N o , w h a t I ’ m a s k in g is w h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h y i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o d o t h a t , to b a c k d a t e i t a s
s u c h s e e i n g th a t i t w a s s a y in g t h a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s s u b j e c t t o t h e
c o n c l u s i o n o f a c o n tr a c t , I ta k e i t th a t u n ti l t h e c o n t r a c t w a s c o n c l u d e d
t h e r e w a s n o th i n g a t a p r a c tic a l l e v e l th a t t h e e n ti t y w a s g o in g t o b e
o b li g e d t o d o
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

S o t h e n t h e y w o u ld o b v i o u s ly e n s u r e th a t t h e

Page 219 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
s e r v ic e s t h a t w a s t a k in g p l a c e a lr e a d y t h e n r u n s fr o m th e 1 s t o f J u ly
t h a t i s li n e w i th t h e n t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t t h e y s ig n e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w h a t I’ m s a y i n g i s , is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t

t h a t t h e m e r e f a c t th a t t h is e n ti ty w h o w o u l d r e c e i v e t h is le t t e r w o u ld
n o t m e a n th a t t h e y s h o u l d b e g i n t o p r o v i d e a n y s e r v i c e u n t il t h e
c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n c o n c l u d e .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e fo r e to th e e x te n t t h a t th is l e t te r s a i d th e i r

a p p o i n t m e n t, o r i f a p p o in t e d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h i s e n ti ty w a s w i t h
10

e ffe c t fr o m 1 J u ly 2 0 1 7 a n d w a s s u b je c t t o th e c o n c lu s i o n o f a c o n tr a c t
r e a l ly a t a p r a c ti c a l le v e l d i d n ’ t m e a n a n y t h i n g , t h e r e w a s n o th i n g t h e y
w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o o r t h e r e w a s n o o b li g a ti o n fo r t h e m t o p e r fo r m a n y
s e r v ic e u n t il th e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I w o u l d a g r e e to t h a t y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o t h e r e f o r e a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d th e

a p p o i n t m e n t m a y h a v e b e e n w i th e ff e c t f r o m t h e d a te o f t h e l e tt e r ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e I t a k e t h a t th e a p p o i n t m e n t it s e l f d o e s n ’ t

m e a n a n y th i n g o th e r th a n t h a t , th a t is t h e a p p o i n t m e n t b e f o r e t h e
20

c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t , th e a p p o in t m e n t w i t h o u t t h e c o n tr a c t m e a n s
n o t h i n g m o r e th a n t h a t a s a b id d e r o r a s a n e n t it y y o u t h e n k n o w th a t
y o u m u s t e n t e r i n to n e g o ti a ti o n s w i t h a v ie w to c o n c lu d i n g a c o n tr a c t
w i t h S A E x p r e s s , y o u m u s t a v a il y o u r s e l f f o r m e e t in g s fo r t h a t p u r p o s e
a n d t h e s i g n in g o f t h e c o n tr a c t o n c e a g r e e m e n t h a s b e e n r e a c h e d a n d t
t h a t y o u m u s t k i n d o f p r e p a r e y o u r s e lf fo r p e r f o r m i n g i n t e r m s o f t h e

Page 220 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
c o n tr a c t i n c a s e i t is s u c c e s s f u ll y c o n c l u d e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o y o u m u s t r e a d y y o u r s e l f s o t h a t w h e n t h e

c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n s ig n e d a n d g o e s i n t o o p e r a t i o n y o u a r e r e a d y to
p e r f o r m , b u t o t h e r th a n t h a t r e a l ly t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n a p p o i n te d
d o e s n ’t m e a n a n y t h i n g e ls e . O k a y.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h is l e t te r is d a t e d
t h e 5 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 7 , c a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o b a c k t o p a g e 5 6 p le a s e .
10

T h i s is th e s ig n a tu r e p a g e o f t h e m o t iv a t i o n f o r d e v i a ti o n , o n w h a t d a te
d o e s M r D a v e A l le n b y, th e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r o f O p e r a t i o n s s u b m i t t h is
document?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 63?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: 56.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fiv e S ix ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Fi v e S ix .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay proceed.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n w h a t d a te d o e s M r D a v e A l le n b y
s ig n t h is d o c u m e n t w h ic h a p p e a r s to b e t h e d a te o n w h i c h h e s u b m i ts ?

20

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h e 1 s t o f th e 7 t h 2 0 1 7 .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t ’s t h e s a m e d a te o f t h e d a t e
o f t h e l e t t e r o f a w a r d , s i g n e d o ff b y M r S a m u e l Vi li k a z i ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I n o w a s k y o u t o tu r n t o

A n n e x u r e 1 0 w h ic h a p p e a r s a t p a g e 9 6 . T h i s l e tt e r is d a t e d a b o u t t w o

Page 221 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
d a y s l a t e r, o n t h e 7 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 7 , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h i s le t t e r f o r t h e r e c o r d r e a d s :
“ To w h o m i t m a y c o n c e r n
This

l e tt e r

serves

to

c o n f ir m

that

EML

Engineers

and

C o n s tr u c t i o n tr a d i n g a s E M L E n e r g y w it h t h e r e g is tr a ti o n
n u m b e r in d ic a te d h a s b e e n a p p o i n te d b y S o u t h A fr i c a n E x p r e s s
a s t h e f u e l s u p p l i e r fo r a p e r io d o f t h r e e y e a r s .

T h e fu e l

r e q u ir e m e n t s w il l in i ti a l ly b e c o n f i n e d t o t h e t w o s t a ti o n s , t h a t
10

is

OR

Ta m b o

In t e r n a t io n a l A i r p o r t

( 2 5 m il li o n

l i tr e s )

and

P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t ( 8 m i ll io n l it r e s ) p e r a n n u m r e s p e c tiv e ly.
T h e v o lu m e s w i ll b e a d j u s t e d a n d in c r e a s e d o v e r t h e c o n tr a c t
period as part of developing EML Energy as the Emerging
Black

Owned

S u p p li e r

in

li n e

with

the

tr a n s fo r m a t i o n

i m p e r a t iv e s o u t li n in g t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic y o f S o u t h A fr i c a n
E x p r e s s . I tr u s t th a t y o u w ill f in d th e a b o v e i n o r d e r.
Yo u r s i n c e r e ly
D r S a m Vi li k a z i
C h i e f P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r ”
20

W h a t a r e y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n s o r a n y c o n c e r n s th a t y o u m a y h a v e w i t h
t h is le t t e r M s L o o c k ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : If a n y.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I f ir s t o b s e r v e d t h e p e r i o d o f t h r e e y e a r s I a ls o
o b s e r v e t h e li tr e s , 2 5 m il li o n li tr e s a n d a l s o 8 m i ll io n l i tr e s p e r a n n u m
w h ic h i s a b i t e x o r b i ta n t i n m y v i e w c h a ir.

Page 222 of 228

24 JUNE 2019 – DAY 119
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

At paragraph 28 on page 8 of your

a ffi d a v i t y o u r e m in d o f t h e q u a n t it i e s th a t w e r e r e q u ir e d s p e c i fi c a lly t o
P il a n e s b e r g A i r p o r t . F o r t h e r e c o r d c a n y o u j u s t r e m i n d e x a c t ly o f w h a t
t h o s e li tr e s w e r e p e r w e e k r e q u i r e d a n d h o w i t tr a n s l a t e s in t o a p e r
a n n u m r e q u ir e m e n t.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h e r e q u ir e m e n t , I j u s t w a n t t o r e f e r b a c k to m y
p a r a g r a p h , w h ic h w a s 8 5 0 0 l i tr e s p e r w e e k w h i c h r e s u l te d i n a t o t a l o f
a p p r o x i m a te ly 4 4 2 li tr e s p e r a n n u m i f w e u s e a 5 2 w e e k C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

S o y o u h a d o r r a t h e r d id y o u r

r e q u ir e m e n t a t a ll in c l u d e a n y a ir p o r t o th e r th a n P il a n e s b e r g ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : N o i t d id n ’t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o t o s u m m a r is e y o u r c o n c e r n s t h e

o n e w a s t h e d u r a t io n o f th e a p p o i n t m e n t p u r p o r t e d i n t h e l e t t e r a t p a g e
9 6 , t h e o t h e r w a s t h e n u m b e r o f l i tr e s o f je t f u e l to b e p r o v i d e d o n a
w e e k ly b a s i s w h e n e v e n tr a n s l a t e d in t o a p e r a n n u m q u a n ti t y s til l fa r
e x c e e d e d t h a t w h ic h is in d ic a t e d i n t h e l e t te r a n d t h e t h i r d is t h a t i t ’s
n o t s p e c if ic t o o n l y P i la n e s b e r g A ir p o r t, is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV
20

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir

ju s t

fo r

the

record

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, w h a t w a s t h e l a s t p o in t a b o u t n o t s p e c i fi c ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I t ’s n o t o n ly c o n f i n e d t o P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It in c l u d e s O R Ta m b o ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t a c o n c e r n b e c a u s e t h e R o u n d R o b i n r e s o l u ti o n

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d i d n o t i n c lu d e O R Ta m b o Ms L o o c k ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir, ju s t r e p e a t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u c o n c e r n e d t h a t t h e le t t e r a ls o t a l k s a b o u t O R
Ta m b o a n d n o t j u s t P il a n e s b e r g , b e c a u s e t h e r e s o lu t io n , R o u n d R o b i n
r e s o l u ti o n , d i d n o t i n c lu d e O R Ta m b o a n d w a s c o n fi n e d t o P i la n e s b e r g ,
w h a t ’s th e b a s is o f y o u r c o n c e r n ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s s h o u ld h a v e b e e n D e n e l ,

b e c a u s e t h a t ’s w h e r e t h e h e a v y m a i n t e n a n c e to o k p la c e , s o t h a t w o u l d
b e D e n e l a t O R Ta m b o , i t is b a s e d a t O R Ta m b o I n te r n a ti o n a l , b u t i f
10

y o u p l a c e O R Ta m b o I n t e r n a t io n a l i t c a n m e a n a n y w h e r e a t O R Ta m b o
I n t e r n a ti o n a l, s o a s p e c i f ic a t i o n li k e D e n e l o r f o r h e a v y m a i n t e n a n c e a t
D e n e l Te c h n ic a l D e n e l a n d P i l a n e s b e r g O p e r a t io n s w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n
m y v i e w b e t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t is y o u r c o n c e r n t h a t i f y o u s a y O R Ta m b o a s
o p p o s e d to s a y i n g D e n e l O R Ta m b o w h a t e v e r, i f y o u s i m p l y s a y a t O R
Ta m b o th e s a m e s e r v i c e c o u l d b e p r o v i d e d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e o t h e r
t h a n th e o n e a t D e n e l O R Ta m b o o r is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t n o t h e r e
w o u ld n ’t b e a n y o n e e ls e to p r o v id e s u c h a s e r v ic e , o n l y th e o n e a t
D e n e l w o u ld b e a b l e to , i t ’s ju s t t h a t it ’s n o t a p r o p e r o r a c c u r a te

20

d e s c r ip t io n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : W e h a d a n o n g o i n g c o n tr a c t w i t h S A A t o s u p p l y,
t o a s s is t w i t h th e fu e l a t O R Ta m b o fo r o u r n o r m a l o p e r a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is t h e c o n c e r n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r p o i n t i s n o t ju s t a t e c h n ic a l o n e , i t’s a

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s u b s t a n t iv e o n e in t h e s p a c e th a t th e l e t te r m a k e s i t o p e n f o r w h a t
s h o u l d b e o b t a i n e d fr o m D e n e l t o b e o b t a i n e d fr o m e ls e w h e r e ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t ’s p a r t o f y o u r c o n c e r n .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e s e c o n d o n e is t h e a m o u n t o f li tr e s o f f u e l p e r

y e a r.
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d fr o m w h a t y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 8 y o u s a y t h a t i f
10

y o u b e a r i n m i n d t h a t t h e f li g h t s w o u l d b e lik e tw o ti m e s a w e e k , i s t h a t
correct?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

Tw o t i m e s a w e e k , th a t w o u l d b e f o u r f li g h t s ,

t h a t w o u ld b e t w o o n a M o n d a y a n d t w o o n a F r i d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , f o u r fl ig h ts , a n d y o u s a y i n a y e a r y o u h a v e g o t
5 2 w e e k s b a s e d o n t h a t y o u s a y th e a m o u n t o f l i tr e s w o u l d b e 4 4 2 0 0 0
li tr e s p e r y e a r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u r c o n c e r n is t h a t th e le t t e r fr o m D r Vi lik a z i

s a y s th a t t h e a m o u n t o f l i tr e s a n d i n r e g a r d t o O R Ta m b o is 2 5 m il li o n
20

li tr e s p e r y e a r a n d i n r e g a r d t o P i l a n e s b e r g it s a y s 8 m il li o n p e r y e a r,
t h a t ’s y o u r c o n c e r n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d in s o fa r a s P il a n e s b e r g is c o n c e r n e d is t h e

p o s i ti o n th a t t h e c o r r e c t a m o u n t o f li tr e s w o u ld h a v e b e e n 1 5 3 0 0 0 –
n o , n o 8 5 0 0 li tr e s – n o th a t ’s p e r w e e k , w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e t o t a l

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p e r y e a r f o r P il a n e s b e r g ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : 4 4 2 0 0 0 li tr e s p e r a n n u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is i n c l u s i v e o f e v e r y t h i n g ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t’s p e r a n n u m f o r P il a n e s b e r g o n l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d fo r O R Ta m b o ?
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n O R Ta m b o b e c a u s e I d o

n o t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e r e t h a t c a m e fr o m .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I d o n ’ t k n o w th e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t e c h n ic a l h o w
10

m a n y li tr e s th e y a c t u a ll y n e g o t ia t e d y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t f o r P il a n e s b e r g y o u s a y i t ’s 4 4 2 0 0 0 ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a y b e l o w t h e 8 m i ll io n l i tr e s t h a t t h e l e t t e r ta lk s

a b o u t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Is it t h e n c o r r e c t

M s L o o c k t h a t u p a n d u n t il t h i s s t a g e th e o n ly o p e r a t i o n a l r e q u ir e m e n ts
t h a t P il a n e s b e r g w a s o n e f o r t h e s u p p ly o f fu e l a n d th e tr a n s p o r t a ti o n
20

o f s u c h f u e l fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g to P i la n e s b e r g t w ic e a w e e k .
MS ESTELLE LOOCK:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th e q u a n ti t ie s th a t w e r e

r e q u ir e d w a s 8 5 0 0 l i tr e s p e r w e e k , w h ic h tr a n s l a te d t o 4 4 2 0 0 0 l i tr e s
p e r a n n u m o n a 5 2 w e e k b a s is ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

That

was

the

total

sum

of

r e q u ir e m e n t f o r P il a n e s b e r g A ir p o r t .
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t , fr o m a n o p e r a t i o n a l p o i n t y e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th e n fr o m a n o p e r a t io n a l p o i n t

a s w e ll u p a n d u n ti l th is s t a g e t h e o n l y o p e r a t io n a l n e e d a t O R Ta m b o
I n t e r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t r e l a t e d t o d e f u e l in g a n d r e f u e l li n g o n a n a d h o c
b a s is o f a ir c r a f t th r o u g h S A E x p r e s s Te c h n ic a l?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d s o it d id n o t i n c l u d e t h e s u p p ly

o f f u e l g e n e r a l ly a s w a s n e e d e d in P i la n e s b e r g A ir p o r t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t n o w w e h a v e l e t te r s w h ic h t a l k s
t o a d i ff e r e n t s c o p e o f s e r v ic e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

If

I

can

ask

you

now

to

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e a r e a t fiv e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a i d w e w o u ld lo o k a t t h e s i t u a t io n a t f iv e o ’c lo c k . I
20

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i f w e fi n is h w i t h M s L o o c k t h is a ft e r n o o n t o m o r r o w w e
m i g h t n o t u s e th e w h o l e d a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w th e – e x c e p t i f M s L o o c k w o u l d h a v e s o m e

d i ff ic u l ty w it h c o m i n g b a c k to m o r r o w i t m i g h t – t h e r e m ig h t n o t b e m u c h
n e e d f o r u s t o g o o n to m u c h l a te r to d a y i f t o m o r r o w w e w il l e n d u p n o t

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b e i n g a b le to u s e t h e w h o le ti m e .

Ms Loock what is your situation

a b o u t th e p o s s i b i li ty o f c o m i n g b a c k t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g a n d w e fi n is h
y o u r e v id e n c e to m o r r o w b e f o r e w e s t a r t w i t h t h e n e x t w i t n e s s , h o w is
y o u r s it u a ti o n ?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : M y s it u a ti o n is fi n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d b e f in e w i t h t h a t?
M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : I w il l b e fi n e , I’ m a ls o o k a y w i t h g o i n g o n , i t’s
n o t a p r o b l e m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , n o t h a t ’s f in e , it ’s j u s t t h a t I w o u l d n ’ t w a n t
10

t o c a u s e a n y i n c o n v e n ie n c e to a n y w i t n e s s , b u t I th i n k th a t i f M s L o o c k
h a s n ’ t g o t a n y p r o b l e m a s s h e s a y s t h e n w e p r o b a b ly s h o u ld s t o p n o w
a n d a n d a s k h e r to c o m e b a c k to m o r r o w m o r n in g b e c a u s e i t’s n o t li k e
t o m o r r o w w e a r e lik e ly to r u n i n t o a n y p r o b le m s i n te r ms o f f i n is h in g th e
w i t n e s s . I t a k e i t t h a t y o u m i g h t b e l e f t w i t h m a y b e 3 0 m i n u te s o r 4 5
m i n u t e s t o f in is h ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r, a n o th e r 3 0 m i n u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o l e t’s f in e , l e t ’s d o th a t t o m o r r o w. W e w i ll s t o p a t
t h is s ta g e M s L o o c k a n d t o m o r r o w w e s t a r t a t t e n o ’c l o c k , p l e a s e c o m e
b a c k to m o r r o w a t t e n o ’c lo c k . I s t h a t a lr i g h t?

20

M S E S T E L L E L O O C K : T h a t’s c o r r e c t , t h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h a t’s f i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . W e w i ll t h e n a d jo u r n f o r t o d a y a n d
t o m o r r o w w e s t a r t a t te n .
We adjourn.
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 5 J U N E 2 0 1 9

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