C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N T O S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K T O W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 2 5 F E B R U A RY 2 0 2 0 D AY 2 1 8 FINAL 20 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 5 F E B R U A RY 2 0 2 0 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Good morning Mr Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e a r e r e a d y t h a n k y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Chair before we commence may the legal representatives that present the various parties place themselves on record 10 CHAIRPERSON: Maybe at this stage …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: After we have started. CHAIRPERSON: Only those who may be representing the current w i t n e s s o r t h o s e w h o m a y b e i m p l i c a t e d b y h e r. T h o s e r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s who represent persons who may be implicated by the next witness maybe when we start …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Maybe we will do it. CHAIRPERSON: With the next witness then they can place themselves on record. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 We will do that. We will do it that way C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: This witness does not implicate anyone thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Except ...(indistinct). Page 2 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Chair in opening we just wish to place on record that today we continuing with the SABC – with evidence that relates to the SABC. Chair would recall that on the last occasion Chair had directed that the MultiChoice contract between – the contract between MultiChoice and SABC was of a matter of public importance and that it had to be investigated. The evidence that we will be leading today and possibly tomorrow we relate to that contract. Chair there has been various court judgments that deal with what we 10 referred to in the previous – on the previous occasion as the Digital M i g r a t i o n P o l i c y, t h e v a r i o u s a m e n d m e n t s t o t h a t p o l i c y. A n d a b u n d l e has been placed – has been sub – placed before – the Registrar will hand it up which is Exhibit CC44. That bundle Chair is – consists of all the judgments that relates to the matter that we will dealing with going forward. Chair the first judgment just in summary – the eTV judgment that appears on pages 1 to 25 of that judgment that was the judgment that was handed down by Justice Pretorius. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe let us quickly admit this? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: As Exhibit 44. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: May it then be admitted Chair as Exhibit 44? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is called the Digital Migration Judgment bundle. Page 3 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: The file containing various judgments starting with the South African High Court Judgment in the matter of eTV PTY Limited versus Minister of Communications and Others – case number 34694/2012 and other judgments in that file. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Will be admitted and marked as Exhibit CC44. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Thank you. The first judgment Chair dealt with the issue of whether the Minister which in this case the Minister had decided that Sentech was going to be 10 responsible for the STB Control Systems and when that happened then eTV took that decision to court and the court found that the Minister had no right to prescribe to …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Maybe just to ensure that everybody is on the same page as all of us because it has been quite some time that evidence was led relating to Digital Migration ...…(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you could just take one minute or so to remind e v e r y b o d y w h a t D i g i t a l M i g r a t i o n i s a l l a b o u t s o t h a t t h e y c a n f o l l o w. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Ye s C h a i r. Chair the Digital Migration related to the policies – the first policy on this issue was passed in 2008 by Minister Matsepe Casaburri which related to the Free to Air t e l e v i s i o n s l i k e y o u r e T V, S A B C w h i c h w e r e u s i n g a n a l o g u e t e c h n o l o g y. By June 2015 the International Unions – International Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s U n i o n s h a d a n n o u n c e d t h a t t h e d a t e f o r m i g r a t i o n from analogue to digital had to be June 2015. And it was a result of Page 4 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 that that then there was the rush then to amend the policies in order to fit in and make sure that by the time that deadline comes about then there is digitisation of the analogue technology system. Now in order t o d o t h a t t h e n i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t h e r e f o r e t h a t S e t To p b o x e s b e secured because in order to change the signal or convert the signal – t h e a n a l o g u e s i g n a l t o d i g i t a l o n e n e e d e d t h o s e S e t To p b o x e s . A n d w e h a d h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r R o y K r u g e r, t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r S t r a c h a n a n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r J a n s e n Va n Vu u r e n o n w h y – h o w m a n y S e t To p b o x e s w e r e – w o u l d b e r e q u i r e d b y t h e c o u n t r y. A t t h e t i m e t h e y w e r e 10 talking about 5 million of those for the persons who were indigent who c o u l d n o t a ff o r d t o p a y f o r t h a t a n d t h o s e w e r e g o i n g t o b e s u b s i d i s e d . And as a result of that then there were certain amendments to the p o l i c y w h i c h w e r e a ff e c t e d b y t h e v a r i o u s M i n i s t e r s . B u t w h a t M i n i s t e r Dina Pule did on the 10th of May 2012 she made a decision that Sentech was going to be responsible for the control system and that is the decision that eTV took to court and that is the judgment in case number 34694 of 2012. And the court agreed with eTV and found that the Minister had no powers. CHAIRPERSON: And that is the judgment by Pretorius BC. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: AJ. CHAIRPERSON: Acting Judge ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is correct, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And the court found that the Minister had no right to prescribe to Free to Air broadcasters who should manage Page 5 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 t h e S e t To p b o x e s a n d f o u n d t h a t I C A S A h a d t h e p o w e r o f r e g u l a t i o n i n that regard. And then the next judgment would also involve …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Apart from what appears to have been simply a q u e s t i o n o f l a w. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Were there any important findings that …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Of a factual nature? 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No not in that case. CHAIRPERSON: Nothing. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Not in that case. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. And then eTV again brought another litigation against the Minister of Communications. Chair will find that at – from page 26. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: This was the judgment before …(intervenes). 20 CHAIRPERSON: And this is case number 26166/2015? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In that case the judgment of Prinsloo J Chair I observed last night that unfortunately the copy that has been placed in the file in the bundle is incomplete. Page 6 of 169 I beg leave Chair to 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 m a k e a – s u b m i t a f u l l s e t i f C h a i r ’s i s a l s o i n c o m p l e t e d u r i n g t h e t e a break – we have it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t i s f i n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But apparently when they were …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: I have not checked whether it is complete or not. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Thank you Chair that will be rectified during the tea break. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In that judgment Chair the – what eTV was challenging were certain amendments to the Broadcasting Digital M i g r a t i o n P o l i c y w h i c h w e e ff e c t e d a n d i m p l e m e n t s a r o u n d 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . N o w t h i s w a s a f t e r t h e P o r t f o l i o o f Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s h a d b e e n split into two. One had the Minister of Communications and also one h a d t h e M i n i s t e r o f Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s a n d P o s t a l S e r v i c e s . The proclamation that is relevant is the one who published on the 15th of July 2014 and then there was another proclamation which was 20 published on the 2nd of December 2014 and the – that dealt with the power to make broadcasting policy in terms of Section 3 of the Electronic Communications Act which transferred that power from the M i n i s t e r o f Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s t o t h e M i n i s t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t i o n s . This is the policy that deals with the Digital Migration Process. The issue that was before court was that he amendment of March 2015 Page 7 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 s t i p u l a t e d t h a t t h e s u b s i d i s e d S T B ’s w i l l n o t h a v e c a p a b i l i t i e s t o encrypt broadcast signals. And Chair would recall how Mr Roy Kruger had described the encryption and the non-encryption. They had – he had emphasised that the reason for encryption which was in 2008 policy was to make sure that there is no – prevents against theft. It also prevents against hacking either from outside the country or for other countries so that they cannot simply tap onto the systems within t h e c o u n t r y. A n d e T V o n t h e o t h e r h a n d w a n t e d t h e s u b s i d i s e d S T B t o be fitted with an encryption facility because eTV wanted to broadcast 10 t h e e n c r y p t e d s i g n a l a s a F r e e t o A i r b r o a d c a s t e r. T h e c o m p l a i n t t h a t was brought on review was that the amendment was not preceded by a consultation process and therefor it was unlawful and should be set aside. Prinsloo J found that the amendment was not all ...(indistinct) a n d h e r e j e c t e d t h e a r g u m e n t s b y e T V. A n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t h e t h e n dismissed the application – the review application. Once that happened then eTV took the matter to the Supreme Court of Appeal and appealed that decision of Prinsloo J and Chair would find that the Supreme Court of Appeal decision at pages – starting from page 85 of t h a t – o f b u n d l e C C 4 4 a n d t h a t c a s e i s r e p o r t e d a s e T V P T Y LT D v e r s u s 20 Minister of Communications 1039/2015 (2016) ZASCA 85 31 May 2016. CHAIRPERSON: It looks like there are about what four or five appellants. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . ME KHUMALO: eTV PTY Limited and others. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And others. Page 8 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ve r s u s M i n i s t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t i o n s a n d O t h e r s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m m . Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. A n d i n t h i s o n e S u p r e m e Court of Appeal …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: And the judgments is written by Lewis JA? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 That is correct and it was unanimous Lewis and Salduiker J, Swain J and Mgha A and Baartman AJA. What the court found was that when the Minister consulted or went about the consultation process the court was of the view that the Minister – no s o r r y, s o r r y. The Minister was – the encryption amendment that the Minister had implemented was ultra-virus and it was invalid. And in other words the court found in favour of eTV that the Minister had no powers to make the amendment in the manner in which she did. And there they – the court does deal with the various amendments throughout from 2008. But at paragraph 66 the court made the following finding: 20 “In my view Minister Muthambi has issued an edict he has decreed that the subsidised ST boxes shall not encryption capability – shall not have encryption c a p a b i l i t y. U S A S A h a s s a i d n o t h i n g o n t h i s s c o r e i t cannot make a financial c o n s o n a n t w i t h t h e p o l i c y. decision that is not T h e M i n i s t e r ’s d e c i s i o n Page 9 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 does purport to bind and that is borne out by the s t a t e m e n t s i n t h e a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t t h a t s a y t h a t government will not bear the costs of encryption and that if eTV wishes to broadcast an encrypted signal it must provide the ST boxes to consumers at its cost. That as has already been said makes it commercially impossible for eTV to encrypt its broadcast signals despite the statements in clause 5.1.2C that it is free to do so. In my view Minister Muthambi did purport to issue a binding direction which she was not 10 entitled or empowered to do. For this reason too the encryption amendment is invalid.” And then in that case then eTV was successful and as soon as that happened then the Electronic Media Network Minister of Communications and the SABC took the matter to the Constitutional C o u r t . C h a i r w i l l f i n d t h a t j u d g m e n t a t p a g e 11 4 a n d C h a i r w a s p a r t o f the bench. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 I n t h a t m a t t e r. Ye s . The issue there revolved …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s u n d e r c a s e n u m b e r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Under …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: CCT14G. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Of 16 yes. CHAIRPERSON: /2016 I see there is 141/2016 and 145/2-16 as well. Page 10 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. A n d i t i s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And it is reported as Electronic Media Network Limited and Others versus eTV Limited and Others 2017 ZA66/17. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The issue there revolved on the – in fact they appealed the judgment on the basis that the Minister was well within her rights to amend the policy in the manner in which she did. 10 But in that judgment there are findings that have – that are factual in nature and also findings that we wish to deal with going forward as the Commission because the Constitutional Court made the findings and I would like to with your leave Chair to just deal with them quickly because the court dealt with that at page 140 and the court made these f i n d i n g s a n d t h e t i t l e – s u b - t i t l e i s t h e E ff e c t o f t h e M i n i s t e r ’s S e l e c t i v e Consultation. So that relates to the process that was followed by the M i n i s t e r. P a r a g r a p h … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: Maybe before we proceed. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: We need to – you need to say that there were two judgments. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: In the Constitutional Court. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: One being the majority judgment, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Page 11 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And the one of Freeman J and Company C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: The majority one was written by the Chief Justice. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then there was the Minority one but now I have not looked at – now I cannot remember whether ...…(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e i s a n o t h e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Whether it is a concurrence or a descent. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is a descent DCJ. CHAIRPERSON: Is it descent so …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I was going to deal with it in my address to you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t i s f i n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So it is important to say it was a split. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s d e c i s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Decision. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I n f a c t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e m a r g i n w a s q u i t e n a r r o w. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A 54. Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright. Page 12 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a i r. I w a s g o i n g t o d e a l with and …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: I am just mentioning that because …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is important ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o u r t o f f i r s t i n s t a n c e f o u n d o n e w a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l f o u n d d i ff e r e n t l y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then it went to the Constitutional Court and then 10 there was quite a …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A split. CHAIRPERSON: A sharp split. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C h a i r i n t h e m a j o r i t y i f I m a y p u t i t – y e s i t i s t h e m a j o r i t y. T h e m a j o r i t y f o u n d t h a t t h e d e c i s i o n of the Minister was rational and it was valid. And then the court again re-emphasised the principle of separation of powers but what the court made – the findings that the court made – paragraph 59 at page 140 20 the court stated the following without reading the entire paragraph. Chair if you may permit? “The Minister solicited the views of some undisclosed persons. Minister In the policy development process the may if she so wishes consult some interested persons or experts on broadcasting digital Page 13 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 m i g r a t i o n p o l i c y. B r o a d l y s p e a k i n g t h e M i n i s t e r m a y seek more enlightenment on any aspect of the policy formulation exercise beyond the parameters of the prescribed consultation process. neither forbids clarification nor or The legislation regulates additional ...(indistinct) information for from whomsoever it might be beneficially sourced. This is so because some latitude or a reasonable measure of flexibility ought to be allowed in the exercise of 10 e x e c u t i v e a u t h o r i t y w i t h o u t e ff e c t i v e l y u n d e r m i n i n g the values of openness and accountability and this extends to the development of policy although she was under no obligation to consult.” But then the court continues at paragraph 60: “Although undisclosed the M i n i s t e r ’s stakeholders consultation potentially of some taints the p r o c e s s i n s o m e w a y i t d o e s i n v a l i d a t e t h e p o l i c y. I t needs to be reiterated that it is so …(intervenes).” CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether you read? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: It does not or does – or it does but it says it does not. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I t d o e s n o t i n v a l i d a t e t h e p o l i c y. C h a i r. O h d i d I m i s s o u t t h e n o t C h a i r ? I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . CHAIRPERSON: In my ears it sounded like it. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It does. Page 14 of 169 Ye s 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: Does. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . “ I t d o e s n o t i n v a l i d a t e t h e p o l i c y. ” The paragraph that I wish to draw your attention to Chair is paragraph 61 at page 141. The court says: “Have made those findings that – but this does not mean that a blind eye is to be turned to her consent 10 evoking evasive and suspicious responses or lack thereof to pertinent questions raised by eTV for we live in a constitutional democracy whose foundational v a l u e s i n c l u d e o p e n n e s s a n d a c c o u n t a b i l i t y. It is thus inappropriate for the Minister to not have volunteered the identities of those she consulted with and what the consultation was about as if she was not entitled to solicit enlightenment or did so in pursuit of an illegitimate agenda. This conduct must be frowned upon and discouraged. 20 It does not however constitute the necessary and unavoidable constitutional basis for judicial intrusion.” Then the majority found that the policy did not interfere with the policy – did not set it aside. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t r e a d t h e w h o l e o f p a r a g r a p h 6 0 b u t I t h i n k it might be convenient to read it too. I see some …(intervenes). Page 15 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh up to the end? CHAIRPERSON: Statements – yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Alright. CHAIRPERSON: Which appear to be important. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: By the court ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Paragraph 60 again: “Although the undisclosed 10 M i n i s t e r ’s stakeholders consultation potentially of some taints the p r o c e s s i n s o m e w a y i t d o e s n o t i n v a l i d a t e t h e p o l i c y. It needs to be reiterated that it is so because she is free from any constitutional constraints in the information gathering exercise for the purpose of policy formulation. Her disclosure or non-disclosure does not necessarily undermine any broadcaster or interested persons rights. eTV could have but chose not to pursue readily available openness and accountability enforcing mechanisms to achieve that objective. 20 More would be required to conclude that the only reasonable inference to draw from the M i n i s t e r ’s i l l - a d v i s e d a n u n f o r t u n a t e n o n - d i s c l o s u r e is that her consultation of some interested persons necessarily redundant to the advantage of those who were consulted at the expense of the un-consulted. Her consultations with some stakeholders did not Page 16 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 without more gave eTV the right to also be consulted considering the opportunity it also had to oppose any change to the Carrim proposal.” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. A n d i n t h e e n d t h e n t h e court – the majority found that the Minister was well within her rights to a m e n d t h e p o l i c y. Then Chair the dissenting Judgment is that which was penned by Justices Froneman and Justice Cameron. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: They also frowned upon the fact that the M i n i s t e r ’s consultation process involved persons that were not mentioned and they found that her decision in fact on the encryption issue they found that it was irrational and then they proposed that they would have upheld – they would have dismissed the appeal on that basis. But what they say if I may just direct Chair to paragraph 157 of that judgment which will be at page – I will give you the page now C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 175. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Which – 175 that is correct. Justices said there is: “That the Minister does not tell us why further consultation was necessary nor who she consulted with. In this she failed to adhere to fundamental constitutional values of a c c o u n t a b i l i t y, responsiveness and openness and for each she Page 17 of 169 What the 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 o ff e r s n o e x p l a n a t i o n . S h e d o e s n o t s e e k t o e x p l a i n why this is not an instance that opens the door to secret lobbying explanation, no and influence reason, peddling. unreason, No arbitrariness, i r r a t i o n a l i t y. ” That those findings coupled together with the ones of the majority judgment are the findings that we are going to touch upon. But then without finishing that aspect Justice Japhta also penned a concurring judgment where he was satisfied that there was proper 10 consultation and he was proper – also satisfied and supported the majority judgment. And he made one – I beg your pardon Chair if I may just take you to one – at paragraphs 202 and 203 of that judgment. Justice Japhta stated at paragraph – if I may start at paragraph 200 Chair that appears at page 187? “Here it is not disputed that Minister Muthambi sought to achieve impugned amendment. two purposes through the The first was to secure the S e t To p b o x e s a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e w a s t o s a v e costs. The question that arises for determination is 20 whether there was a rational connection between the amendment and the object of saving costs. question of security is not disputed. The It cannot be again said 201 that the decryption capability would i n c r e a s e c o s t s o f p r o d u c i n g t h e S e t To p b o x e s . E v e n e T V a r e s a i d t h a t i f i t w e r e t o p r o d u c e S e t To p b o x e s Page 18 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 on its own the costs would be prohibitively high hence it was in favour of the decryption capability b e i n g a d d e d t o t h e S e t To p b o x e s s u b s i d i s e d b y government. It was submitted that eTV was willing to cover the additional costs and refund the government l a t e r. It follows that excluding the decryption c a p a b i l i t y f r o m t h e S e t To p b o x e s w o u l d s a v e c o s t s . Accordingly there is a rational connection between the amendment and the objective of saving costs. But 10 eTV contends that its o ff e r to cover the additional costs and refund government later bears a rational relation to the purpose of saving costs. It is not clear to me how a policy that says government will pay for the additional costs during the production o f t h e S e t To p b o x e s o n l y t o b e r e f u n d e d l a t e r w o u l d be saving costs. It seems to me that such a policy would be requiring government to advance money to e T V o n t h e p r o m i s e o f a r e f u n d l a t e r. ” And he supported in paragraph for these reasons in paragraph 20 210: “I support the order proposed in the first judgment.” Then the last judgment that appears in your bundle Chair is the judgment of SOS, Support Public Broadcasting Coalition and Others versus South African Broadcasting Corporation Limited and Others. Just – madam Justice Kathree Setiluane was the Scribe and the – it is Page 19 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 an unanimous judgment and it dealt with …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: And it was in the Constitutional Court as well. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It was a Constitutional Court Judgment. T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it is the only one where eTV does not seem to feature? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s i t a p p e a r s t o b e t h e o n l y o n e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Because this one is really a matter – it was – it dealt with whether or not the Competition Commission had powers to – for instance to subpoena witnesses in the light of an order that was made in – on the 24th of June 2016 where the Competition A p p e a l C o u r t h a d s e t a s i d e t h e t r i b u n a l ’s d e c i s i o n t h a t t h e c o n c l u s i o n of the agreement between MultiChoice and the SABC did not give rise to a notifiable measure and referred the transaction to the Commission. Then there was – then what MultiChoice and the SABC did they submitted certain information to the Commission but that information w a s f o u n d t h a t i t w a s n o t s u ff i c i e n t a n d t h e i r d e f e n c e w a s t h a t l o o k t h i s is all we have either some information does not exist or it never existed 20 or it could no longer be traced. Then what the Commission then intended to do it asked the tribunal to issue a directive where the tribunal would say that the Commission is entitled to conduct interrogations of the Board Members of the various entities or any other executives as they deemed fit. And then SABC and MultiChoice objected to that and they said the tribunal had no jurisdiction to Page 20 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 e n t e r t a i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s r e q u e s t a n d t h e n t h e t r i b u n a l o n t h a t b a s i s it refused to do so. Then the matter came then before the Competition A p p e a l C o u r t w h i c h h a n d e d d o w n i t s j u d g m e n t i n t h a t m a t t e r. A n d t h e n t h e C o m p e t i t i o n Tr i b u n a l – A p p e a l C o u r t I b e g y o u r p a r d o n f o u n d t h a t the – that is the June 2016 order which I have already referred to did not and cannot be read to give the Commission powers that would go beyond the documentation that was given to it. And there it says its powers were expressly confined the course of the inquiry to be conducted by the Commission exclusively to documentation as set out 10 i n t h e o r d e r. A n d t h a t i s t h e o r d e r t h a t w a s t h e n s e t a s i d e o n a p p e a l b y the Constitutional Court on the basis that the Commission does have powers to use – the term that the court used – to use it is – if I may just take the Chair to paragraph 227 of the Order? “Where the court found that Leave to Appeal is granted. T h e a p p e a l i s u p h e l d a n d t h e C o m p e t i t i o n A p p e a l C o u r t ’s Order of 28 April 2017 is set aside and replaced with the following. It is declared that the Order handed down by the Competition Appeal Court on 24 June 2016 does not preclude the Competition Commission from exercising its 20 non-cohesive and cohesive investigative powers in terms of Part B of Chapter 5 of the Competition Act for purposes of discharging its obligations under paragraph 3 o f t h e J u n e 2 0 1 6 O r d e r. ” And then further orders then were directions by the court as to by when the reports were to be filed. Page 21 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: And the Order is in paragraph 90 of that Judgment. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Thank you Chair with that Chair then we wish to place on record that the witness that we are going to call now is going to be answering the question that could not be answered before the Constitutional Court as to who are the persons that the Minister consulted. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M i n i s t e r M u t h a m b i . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is Minister Muthambi. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Who are those persons? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: W e s t a r t o ff b y m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e t o e - mails. CHAIRPERSON: That is now – she had consulted certain people. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: In a way that appears to have been secretive. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t d i s c l o s e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: She did not disclose the identities of those people. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Right throughout up to the Constitutional Court. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a i r. Page 22 of 169 And what the 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 investigators have done was to go back to the – Chair would recall that on the 28th of September 2018 Chair made a ruling on the HDD which is normally called the Gupta Leaks. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That whatever evidence we tender it will be admissible provisionally until such time that there is reason to authenticate or – if it is – if that evidence is challenged. We are comfortable Chair in placing before you Exhibit CC46. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That Exhibit Chair 46 it is on the bench. CHAIRPERSON: Ja I have got it here. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Chair that Exhibit consists of two statements. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: a ff i d a v i t which is A ff i d a v i t s . marked Exhibit Professor Cecil Petrus Lawrence and I beg your pardon. CC46.1 he is is the that of person The first Cecil that – has authenticated these e-mails and …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: With the leave of the Chair he will be c a l l e d i n d u e c o u r s e C h a i r, b u t h e w a s n o t a v a i l a b l e y e s t e r d a y …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And we will lead his evidence some other time …(intervenes). Page 23 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But with your leave Chair there is also another statement which appears at – under the divider marked 46.2. That is the statement of Ms Thobekile Harriet Khumalo. She is present h e r e t h i s m o r n i n g C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: May I ask that that Exhibit CC46 Chair be admitted before the evidence of the witness is led? CHAIRPERSON: 10 Let us just make sure that everybody understands what …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The ruling was? CHAIRPERSON: What – well no. What this contains. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: This file contains. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh yes. CHAIRPERSON: Now you referred to the Gupta e-mails – the hard drive. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 This file contains certain statements as well as e- mails that have been obtained from the hard drive. Is that right? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: That are relevant to the question of the identities of the persons that Minister Muthambi consulted …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e l a t i o n t o m a k i n g t h e a m e n d m e n t t o t h e p o l i c y. Page 24 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: The persons that she did not disclose at the time of the litigation. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u a r e s t a r t i n g w i t h M s K h u m a l o ? 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Mr Cecil Petrus Lawrence Alright. and T h e f i l e c o n t a i n i n g t h e a ff i d a v i t o f annexures thereto as well as the a ff i d a v i t o f M s T h o b e k i l e H a r r i e t K h u m a l o – a r e t h e r e a n n e x u r e s t o h e r a ff i d a v i t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: A n d a n n e x u r e s t o h e r a ff i d a v i t w i l l b e a d m i t t e d a n d marked as Exhibit CC46. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 One will be – 46.1 will be the a ff i d a v i t of Mr Cecil Petrus Lawrence and annexures thereto and 46.2 will be the a ff i d a v i t o f M s T h o b e k i l e K h u m a l o a n d a n n e x u r e s t h e r e t o . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: As Chair pleases. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: So I think the spine of the lever arch must reflect Page 25 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Her name. CHAIRPERSON: 46. – that it contains Exhibit CC46.1 and Exhibit four – CC46.2. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That will be done. T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Chair may the witness be sworn in. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ff i r m a t i o n t o t h e 10 witness. REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. MS KHUMALO: Thobekile Harriet Khumalo. REGISTRAR: Do you have any objection in taking the prescribed oath? MS KHUMALO: No. REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath to be binding on your conscience? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth? If so please raise 20 your right hand and say so help me God. MS KHUMALO: So help me God. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u m a y g o a h e a d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M s K h u m a l o , t h e r e i s a file marked 46 in front of you on your left-hand side or is it the one that Page 26 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 you have opened already? MS KHUMALO: Ja. It is the one. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh yes. Thank you. Alright. Is that your a ff i d a v i t a n d i f y o u l o o k a t t h a t i t h a s t h r e e p a g e s a n d t h e – o n t h e t h i r d page there is a signature. Is that your signature that appears there? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And when did when did you depose to that …(intervenes)? CHAIRPERSON: Ms Khumalo, you will have to raise your voice please. 10 M S K H U M A L O : O h . O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. MS KHUMALO: Am I loud now? CHAIRPERSON: Still very …(intervenes). MS KHUMALO: Still? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ve r y, v e r y s o f t . M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i l l h a v e t o s h o u t . M S K H U M A L O : I h a v e t o s h o u t ? O k a y. I w i l l s h o u t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. 20 M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Maybe you should …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n – t h e r e i s s t i l l r o o m f o r y o u t o b r i n g t h e m i c a l i t t l e c l o s e r o r n o t . I f t h e r e i s j u s t – j a , j a . O k a y. A l r i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Page 27 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: Ms Norman, I see …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: That the pagination in this file is not continuous from beginning to end. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: I f t h e - i f t h e a ff i d a v i t s a r e i n t h e s a m e f i l e . It is better that …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It be continuous. CHAIRPERSON: 10 It be continuous rather than starting a new …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Pagination. CHAIRPERSON: Page – ja. Pagination somewhere in the middle. So if that …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Can be done. That should be done …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: But if it is going to be problematic then maybe what needs to be done is …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Maybe to separate it from there. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Either separate – well we have now admitted it a s t o g e t h e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So maybe you can do an index that makes it clear that there are two sections in the file. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In the file. Page 28 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c t i o n m a y b e y o u c a n c a l l i t A . T h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr Lawrence and annexures. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And it should be paginated from page 1 up to – maybe page A1 up to whatever …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then the second section is the section that c o n t a i n s M s K h u m a l o ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s a n d t h e n i t w o u l d b e under B or something. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: If it starts from one, but then it is under B. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. So …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e w i l l d o t h a t C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: ...(indistinct). S o r r y. Thank you. If you go to page 3. Thank you Chair Did you – is that your signature? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. When did you depose to that a ff i d a v i t ? T h e r e i s a d a t e b e l o w t h a t . M S K H U M A L O : I t w a s y e s t e r d a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: I think yesterday was the 24th. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 29 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t a ff i d a v i t a r e t h e y true and correct? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . T h e y a r e C h a i r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . M s K h u m a l o , w h e r e a r e you employed? MS KHUMALO: At the SABC. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u a r e e m p l o y e d a s w h a t ? MS KHUMALO: 10 Now as a Manager Operations. Previously I was the Personal Assistant to the COO. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And who was the Coo? MS KHUMALO: By then it was Mr Hlaudi Motsoeneng. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. H o w l o n g w e r e y o u … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ? CHAIRPERSON: Hang on. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. A r e y o u s t i l l … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ? CHAIRPERSON: Is that the best you can do? MS KHUMALO: I will shout. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Maybe she …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d r a t h e r s h o u t , b e c a u s e i t i s d i ff i c u l t t o h e a r 20 certainly …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: From where I am. MS KHUMALO: Oh. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No. Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. Page 30 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And also when you are answering please face the Chairperson …(intervenes). M S K H U M A L O : O h . O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Because that is one of the – because you …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Maybe that will improve. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t w i l l d e f i n i t e l y. M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B e c a u s e y o u a r e a d d r e s s i n g t h e C h a i r. Not me. M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. M S K H U M A L O : I w i l l t r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Alright. Thank you very much. So I am s o r r y. T h e q u e s t i o n w a s f o r h o w l o n g w e r e y o u a P e r s o n a l A s s i s t a n t t o Mr Motsoeneng? M S K H U M A L O : F r o m 2 0 11 u n t i l h e l e f t t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: So I think he left the organisation in 2016. If I am not mistaken. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And then when he left did you continue in Page 31 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 the position of being a Personal Assistant to …(intervenes). MS KHUMALO: No. No. I did not. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To a n o t h e r C O O ? MS KHUMALO: No. I did not. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. W h e r e d i d y o u m o v e ? MS KHUMALO: I moved to Manager Operations within the Regions. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S K H U M A L O : P r o v i n c e s n o w c a l l e d . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o t h r o u g h o u t t h e t i m e t h a t – f r o m 2 0 11 t o t h e t i m e that Mr Motsoeneng …(intervenes). M S K H U M A L O : F r o m 2 0 11 y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Left. M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e h i s p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t ? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. Is it correct that you were approached by the investigators of the Commission? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s c o r r e c t . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And they requested …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Maybe before that Ms Norman. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: We all have an idea of what a Personal Assistant does, but just reiterate what your duties were generally speaking as M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s PA . Page 32 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. O n a n o r m a l b u s i n e s s d a y. I t w i l l l i k e a s s i s t i n g h i m i n t h e o ff i c e . Ta k i n g c a l l s , s c r e e n i n g t h e e - m a i l s . I f e - m a i l s n e e d attention, his attention I will just print them and make sure that he r e c e i v e d t h e m a n d w e l c o m i n g v i s i t o r s i n t h e o ff i c e a n d d o i n g h i s appointment. Make sure that he attends those appointments and when he is l e a v i n g t h e o ff i c e p r o b a b l y h e h a s g o t m e e t i n g s o u t s i d e . M a k i n g s u r e that he gets there and – ja. That was normally what …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: That – those were you duties …(intervenes). 10 MS KHUMALO: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Generally speaking? M S K H U M A L O : G e n e r a l l y, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And then when you say you would look at the e-mails. Where would you look at the e-mails from? From whose o ff i c e ? MS KHUMALO: From my laptop. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Now these e-mails would they be for your own personal – were they for you personally or were they for the COO, Mr Motsoeneng, that you received on your e-mail? MS KHUMALO: No. It was for Mr Motsoeneng. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d i t w a s u s e d a s a n o ff i c i a l e - m a i l f o r the COO? Page 33 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Then you have in paragraph 4 and m a y b e I s h o u l d g e t s t a r t e d w i t h u s . Yo u h a v e j u s t s t a r t e d – y o u s t a t e d y o u r q u a l i f i c a t i o n s . C o u l d y o u j u s t d o t h a t ? S o r r y. I o m i t t e d t h a t . MS KHUMALO: I have got a Bachelor Degree in Ministry obtained in Christian Family Church and then I have got a Diploma in Personal Assistant. I received it from Quest Computer School and I have matriculated in 2002 in Asamaloka Secondary School. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u h a v e a l r e a d y d e a l t w i t h w h a t 10 you were doing at the time when you were employed in 2006. M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Now could you then tell the Chairperson about your interaction with the investigators of the Commission. That they approached you and what happened? MS KHUMALO: O k a y. T h e y a p p r o a c h e d m e y e s t e r d a y a n d t h e r e w a s an e-mail that they have received. So that e-mail it was sent by the former Minister Faith Muthambi and it was – I think it was addressed to E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a a n d I w a s c o p i e d o n t h a t e - m a i l . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Ye s . Now I am going to just take an exhibit that appears – which you have attached to your statement. M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o r r y. If you go to page 10 of that document which is the very last page. M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. I a m t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Could you just read what that Page 34 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 says please? CHAIRPERSON: Well let us hear what it is first from whom to whom …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And then she can read. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: It is an e-mail. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Is it not? 10 M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s a n e - m a i l . CHAIRPERSON: It is an e-mail. What is the date of the e-mail? MS KHUMALO: The date of the e-mail is 8 August 2014. CHAIRPERSON: From whom was it and to whom was it addressed? MS KHUMALO: I t w a s f r o m E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a a n d t o F a i t h M u t h a m b i and I was cc’d in that e-mail which is khumaloth@sabc.co.za and there is another person that was copied in that e-mail is Ashu. So I do not know who that person is. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d M s E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a w h a t w a s s h e a t t h e t i m e . Do you know? MS KHUMALO: I think it – because it was 2014. still the Chair – the SABC Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson of the Board? MS KHUMALO: Of the Board, yes. Page 35 of 169 So I think she was 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A l r i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Please read the e-mail then. MS KHUMALO: “Honourable Minister Muthambi, sincerely apology for my late response. My e-mail has been disabled for the last four days. Thanks for the proposed proclamation. Regards, Zandile.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u g o b a c k t h e n . I would like you to take Chair …(intervenes). 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: The reference to Zandile. Who …(intervenes)? MS KHUMALO: It is …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Who is that referring to? MS KHUMALO: It is Ellen. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s M s Ts h a b a l a l a ? M S K H U M A L O : J a . M s Ts h a b a l a l a . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS KHUMALO: Another name for her was Zandile. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Chair and below that where she h a s s i g n e d – s o r r y. There is something that – could you just read everything that is below that? Page 36 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is below the name Zandile. M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. S e n t b y m y i P a d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No. Sent from …(intervenes). MS KHUMALO: Sent from my iPad. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: And then it is: “ O n A u g u s t 1 , 2 0 1 4 a t 11 : 2 9 a m . vote. 10 See proposed proclamation. must sign. Final proclamation. Faith Muthambi, The President 1 August 2014. Sent from my iPad.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Who is speaking there? MS KHUMALO: It is Faith Muthambi. CHAIRPERSON: It is Ms Faith Muthambi? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Do you know what position she held at the 20 time, Ms Muthambi? MS KHUMALO: She was the Minister of Communications. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I s t h a t s t i l l a d d r e s s e d t o t h e s a m e p e o p l e a s t h e – who is that addressed to those comments that she is making there. Do you know? Page 37 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MS KHUMALO: Chair …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Where she says see proposed proclamation. The President must sign. MS KHUMALO: Ye s . I see that. I think she – because Ellen has responded. So …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : M s Ts h a b a l a l a . M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . M s Ts h a b a l a l a h a s r e s p o n d e d . S o I a m t h i n k i n g it is the same person that I was addressed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MS KHUMALO: So I think everybody was there in the e-mail. So M s Ts h a b a l a l a s h e j u s t r e s p o n d e d t o e v e r y o n e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It appears Chair the question – your question Chair is answered at page 5. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: If I may just take the witness to page 5. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Before you do so. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I think we need just for the sake of completeness. The e-mail that you read earlier on Ms Khumalo that is from the person r e f e r r e d t o a s Z a n d i l e – w h o y o u s a i d w a s M s Ts h a b a l a l a a d d r e s s e d t o Honourable Minister Muthambi. Will you please just read everybody who was - who was copied including their e-mail addresses? M S K H U M A L O : O k a y. I w i l l d o t h a t . I t i s f r o m E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a . H e r Page 38 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 e-mail address is ellen@fortuneholdings.co.za. She sent it to Faith Muthambi. Her e-mail address is faith.muthambi@gmail.com and then cc’d khumaloth@sabc.co.za. So that is me. CHAIRPERSON: That is yourself? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s a n d t h e n a n o t h e r p e r s o n t h a t w a s c o p i e d i s A s h u . The e-mail address is ashu@sahara.co.za. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h a n k y o u . M a y I take the witness to page 5? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Are you there Ms Khumalo? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I a m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. What is that? Is that another e-mail? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . T h i s i s a n o t h e r e - m a i l . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h e n – c o u l d y o u j u s t – w h a t – w h e n was it sent? What is the subject, the date, from, to? Could you just follow it through as – read out to the Chairperson? MS KHUMALO: 20 The subject is: Final Proclamation, 01 August 2014. T h e d a t e i s F r i d a y, 0 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e t i m e w a s 11 : 2 9 a n d f r o m Faith Muthambi to khumaloth@sabc.co.za. That is me and to Ashu and c c ’ d E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Could you …(intervenes)? CHAIRPERSON: Read the e-mail address for Ashu. MS KHUMALO: The e-mail address for Ashu is ashu@sahara.co.za. Page 39 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MS KHUMALO: And then there was an attachment to it. attachment is – the name of the attachment is: The Final Proclamation 01 August 2014 and then the contents of the e-mail says: “See proposed proclamation. The President must sign. Sent from my iPad.” CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Now let us look at what attachments were there. Are they attached to the e-mail that is before you now? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: It is the attachment. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Could you just tell the Chair what those attachments were starting with one that appears at page 6? What was that? MS KHUMALO: 20 It is proclamation by President of the Republic of South Africa. CHAIRPERSON: This is at page 6? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That – it is at page 6 of the bundle. Thank y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Could you just read the title? Page 40 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MS KHUMALO: “ Tr a n s f e r o f a d m i n i s t r a t i o n a n d p o w e r o f function instructed by legislation to certain Cabinet Members in terms of Section 97 of the Constitution.” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d i f I m a y j u s t r e a d t h e n e x t paragraph. It says: “In terms of Section 97 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa 1996. I hereby transfer the powers, functions and duties entrusted by the 10 specified legislation and all amendments thereto to the specified Cabinet Member as set out in the S c h e d u l e i n E n g l i s h a n d . . . w i t h e ff e c t f r o m t h e d a t e of publication of this proclamation in the Gazette given under my hand and the seal of the Republic of South Africa at – this day of 2014. President by the order of President in Cabinet. Minister of the Cabinet.” That document is a draft. It appears to be a draft. It is not signed. Am I correct? 20 MS KHUMALO: No. It is not signed. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then the next document that appears at page 7 was that also one of the attachments that you have received? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r w h a t i s Page 41 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 written on that one? MS KHUMALO: It is written Schedule. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Schedule. MS KHUMALO: Schedule …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M S K H U M A L O : A n d t o t h e e x t e n t s t a t e d b e l o w. “The administration and the powers of a function instructed by the legislation mentioned in Column 1 of 10 the table below to a Cabinet Member as Executive Authority of that Department mentioned in Column 2 of the table are transferred to the Cabinet Members mentioned in Column 3 of the table.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: 1.1. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MS KHUMALO: “Communication related and the legislation.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t t h r e e c o l u m n s . The first column deals with legislation. The second it deals with the previous Cabinet Member and then the third column with the Minister 20 t h e n e w C a b i n e t M e m b e r. M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t i s c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N C : Ye s a n d t h a t d o c u m e n t i s t h r e e p a g e s . O n the third page you also have …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. Page 42 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: Before that Ms Norman just to …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Make sure that the transcript will - whoever reads will understand. There are three columns on the Schedule that the witness says was an annexure to the e-mail that she has read. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Column 1 is written legislation. Column 2 is written p r e v i o u s C a b i n e t M i n i s t e r. C o l u m n 3 s a y s n e w C a b i n e t M i n i s t e r. M a y b e f o r – m a y b e i t i s c o n v e n i e n t t o s a y n o w – M s N o r m a n t o s a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: On Column 1 before legislation it reads: Electronic Communication Act 2005 Act 36 of 2005 and then under Column 2 immediately below previous Cabinet Minister it is written Minister of Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s and Postal Services and under Column 3 immediately below the reference to new Cabinet Minister it says Minister of Communications. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n c o n t i n u e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Chair we are going to expand slightly on this when the next witness testifies …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. Page 43 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Because he will deal with the policy issues. Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: But you had – you wanted to refer to the last page. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h e n t h e l a s t p a g e of that was that also a part of the attachment? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . I t w a s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Ye s a n d t h a t p a g e d e a l s w i t h – i t h a s . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) A c t i n t h e f i r s t c o l u m n a n d i t h a s t h e p r e v i o u s M i n i s t e r, because it is the same table. It would be Minister of Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . MS KHUMALO: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And Postal and then because this was a proposed transfer of powers, as it says, then the new Cabinet Member …(intervenes). MS KHUMALO: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Under Column 3 would be Minister of Communications. 20 MS KHUMALO: That is correct. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then you also have below that the Broadband Infraco Act of 2007 which would have been previous C a b i n e t M e m b e r. M i n i s t e r o f P u b l i c E n t e r p r i s e s a n d t h e n n e w C a b i n e t Member in Column 3. M i n i s t e r o f Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s a n d P o s t a l Services. Page 44 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M S K H U M A L O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Now when you received these e-mails what did you do with them? MS KHUMALO: I normally print them. All the e-mails that I receive. I normally print them and put it in a folder and make sure that Mr Motsoeneng gets it. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d d o y o u k n o w t h e r e a s o n w h y o r did Mr Motsoeneng have a separate e-mail address that he was using which you were also managing for him? 10 M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . H i s e - m a i l a d d r e s s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: He had his own e-mail address as well? M S K H U M A L O : H e h a d a n e - m a i l a d d r e s s . Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . N o w w h e n y o u r e c e i v e d t h e s e e - m a i l s i f n o w s o m e b o d y w e r e t o g o t o y o u r c o m p u t e r t o d a y. MS KHUMALO: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Would that person find these e-mails? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s s i r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s have also e-mailed your computer? 20 M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So everything that you have placed before the Commission now MS KHUMALO: In my e-mail. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is – it still exists …(intervenes). M S K H U M A L O : Ye s . Page 45 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: On your e-mail. Thank you and you confirm that these e-mails are authentic? M S K H U M A L O : Ye s C h a i r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And you have not tampered with them in any way? MS KHUMALO: No. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h a t is the evidence from this witness. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M s K h u m a l o . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . 10 MS KHUMALO: Alright then. Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C h a i r m a y – t h a n k y o u . T h e n e x t w i t n e s s C h a i r i s M r Yu n u s C a r r i m . CHAIRPERSON: I am happy that somebody has – seems to have picked up the misspelling was …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w a s t h e r e . Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w a s c o r r e c t e d y e s t e r d a y. T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Well I think I was too quick to …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To p r a i s e u s C h a i r ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: Because I see that one was corrected and another one was not corrected. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a p o l o g i s e f o r t h a t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: If you look at the …(intervenes). Page 46 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The first page. C H A I R P E R S O N : S p e l l i n g o f h i s n a m e o n t h e f i r s t p a g e o f h i s a ff i d a v i t a n d y o u l o o k o n t h e c o v e r – o n t h e s p i n e . I t i s d i ff e r e n t a s w e l l a s o n the first page in the file. At least with mine. I do not know whether it is …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: The same as yours. I hope that his one is correct, because he will think that how can you people get …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Get it that wrong. 10 CHAIRPERSON: His name wrong. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W e l l I – w e w i l l a p o l o g i s e f o r t h a t C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e b e f o r e t h e S i t i s U n o t I . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And that is the mistake they made. In fact w e h a d a l e r t e d t h e Te a m t h a t b u n d l e s t o t h i s a n d b e c a u s e t h e f i r s t p a g e was corrected. I assume that everything was corrected, because it …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No. It was – Mr Carrim I hope that on your file 20 o n t h e o u t s i d e t h e y h a v e s p e l t y o u r n a m e c o r r e c t l y, b e c a u s e o n m i n e they did not. MR CARRIM: Judge Zondo, good morning to you and to the others here. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . G o o d m o r n i n g . M R C A R R I M : I t i s n o t . T h o u g h i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r t o m e p a r t i c u l a r l y. Page 47 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: It is not a big deal? MR CARRIM: As you well know my mother who is very conservative …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR CARRIM: And has very limited formal education I teasingly say was very gender sensitive …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR CARRIM: Because Eunice could be E-u-n-i-c-e. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR CARRIM: Which is a female name. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R C A R R I M : A n d t h a t i s h o w I a m o f t e n s p e l t . S o Y- u - n - i - s i s n o t s o bad. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I thank you. CHAIRPERSON: No. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Carrim. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a i r. …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o g e t i t s o r t e d o u t l a t e r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: We will. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t w i l l d o n e n o w C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Page 48 of 169 Chair the 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n t h i s – b e f o r e w e a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C h a i r, b e f o r e y o u C h a i r y o u have Exhibit CC41 which is the statement together with the annexures o f t h e – a t t a c h e d t o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r Yu n u s C a r r i m a n d m a y t h a t C h a i r be admitted as Exhibit CC41. CHAIRPERSON: T h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r Yu n u s C a r r i m a n d a n n e x u r e s thereto will be admitted and marked as Exhibit CC41. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a i r, t h e w i t n e s s w i l l a ff i r m i n s t e a d o f taking the oath. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r a ff i r m a t i o n . REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. M R C A R R I M : Yu n u s I s m a i l C a r r i m . REGISTRAR: Do you have any objection to taking the prescribed oath? MR CARRIM: No. R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y a ff i r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u g i v e s h a l l be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? 20 If so please r a i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y I t r u l y a ff i r m . M R C A R R I M : I t r u l y a ff i r m CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Carrim. greeted. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Page 49 of 169 We have already 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s N o r m a n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Counsel for Mr Carrim C h a i r, I h a v e j u s t b e e n r e m i n d e d t h a t have not placed themselves on record …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes. Let …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And all the other Counsel. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 May I just step back a while …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: For them to place themselves on record. T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Counsel for Mr Carrim please come forward and place yourself on record and then other Counsel who represents parties who may be implicated by his evidence who are here will then follow and p l a c e t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d a s w e l l . Ye s . ADV PETER HARRIS: Thank you Chairman. My name is Peter Harris of Harris Nupen Molebatsi Attorneys. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV PETER HARRIS: A n d a s s i s t e d b y Ts h e g o f a t s o M o n n a n a a n d Te b o g o Ts o a n e . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V P E T E R H A R R I S : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yo u confirm Page 50 of 169 that you represent 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Mr Carrim. A D V P E T E R H A R R I S : I d o i n d e e d C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V M c G R E G O R K U FA : As it pleases this honourable Commission, I appear on behalf of Mr Claude Motsoeneng, my name McGregor Kufa, with me assisting me is my junior Moroko Rombeni. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV MOROKO ROMBENI: appearing 10 on behalf of I am Advocate Moroko Rombeni, I am Mr Motsoeneng instructed by Machaba Attorneys. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V F R A N C I S H AT T I N G H : M o r n i n g C h a i r, I a m F r a n c i s H a t t i n g h I appear on behalf of MultiChoice with – I am instructed by Weber Wentzel Attorneys. I am here on a watching brief and I tender my apologies for my two leaders missing, Ms ...(indistinct) and Mr Tr e n w o r t h . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Norman they all may have spoken very fast when they gave their names, I don’t know if the transcribers would have got that, so it may be that somebody can just 20 write the names down and pass on to the transcribers because they might not also have got their spellings correct. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r, t h a t i s b e i n g a t t e n d e d t o , t h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Alright. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. Mr Carrim in front of you, Page 51 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 you have a file that on the spine is marked Exhibit CC41, do you have it? MR CARRIM: Ye s I d o . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , i f y o u o p e n t h a t f i l e i t h a s o n t h e v e r y f i r s t p a g e i t s a y s s u b m i s s i o n s o f M r Yu n u s C a r r i m t o t h e J u d i c i a l Commission of Inquiry dated 30 January 2020 and it is follows up by an index, do you see that? MR CARRIM: Ye s , y e s I d o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , b u t a t p a g e 4 i t i s a n a ff i d a v i t 10 a n d t h a t a ff i d a v i t g o e s u p t o p a g e 8 0 . MR CARRIM: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At page 80 there is a signature, is that your signature? MR CARRIM: Ye s i n d e e d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is, thank you. And when did you d e p o s e t o t h a t a ff i d a v i t ? MR CARRIM: Well on the 30th of January if I am correct. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , a n d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h a t a ff i d a v i t true and correct? 20 MR CARRIM: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And this morning we were f u r n i s h e d w i t h a n o t h e r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t f r o m y o u . C h a i r i f I m a y hand up it doesn’t form part of the bundle, it was handed up this morning and could you just explain to the Chair the purpose of that s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t . Page 52 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MR CARRIM: Ye s , I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e c o p y b e f o r e m e b u t b a s i c a l l y i t i s a reference to paragraph ...…(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: T h e y w i l l g i v e i t t o y o u j u s t n o w, g i v e t h e w i t n e s s first. MR CARRIM: Ye s J u d g e , I w i l l a c t u a l l y m o r e o r l e s s r e a d i t i f y o u l i k e , obviously I refer to who I am, an adult male serving in the National Council of Provinces currently as the Chairperson on the Select Committee on Finance and obviously I confirm that this is to the best of my ability true and correct. Now there is just minor things, the first one 10 is 3.1, the word is missing, so the sentence paragraph 174 should now read Chairperson: “As far as I can recall the first SABC Board Meeting where digital migration was discussed Mr Motsoeneng was the only person (that was left out) was the only person who opposed STB control.” So the words missing there were “was the only person”, for which I apologise, that was my draft, I apologise for that. At paragraph 225 I picked this up only yesterday and so I approached the Commission if I could insert these words, at paragraph 225 the last 20 sentence should read as follows: “And if I refer the Commission to paragraphs 105 and 1 6 2 o f t h e s e a ff i d a v i t a m o n g s t o t h e r p a r a g r a p h s w h i c h deal with the issues regarding how Naspers sought to influence government policy on digital migration.” This is a direct response to the question of the Commission: Page 53 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 “Do you have any direct evidence of collusion and corruption?” To w h i c h I r e p l i e d : “Not direct evidence though Mr Agrizzi was able to provide it but if you refer to those specific paragraphs a m o n g s t o t h e r s w h a t i s v e r y c l e a r, a n d t h e C o m m i s s i o n must decide on this, that what happened either was or bordered on being corrupt.” A n d t h e n i n r e s p e c t o f t h e r e l e v a n t a ff i d a v i t , p a r a g r a p h 2 7 2 10 quotes from a reply that I made in reply to Mr Nono Letele, the Chairperson of the MultiChoice Board, and although I refer to the letter i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 2 , a n d I h a v e r e f e r r e d i t t o t h e P e t e r H a r r i s o ff i c e , t h e y mistakenly forgot to forward that annexure and when I picked it up on Sunday they arranged for the annexure to be attached, but in paragraph 272 the annexure is referred to, the paragraph is extracted from it, and all the annexure does now is confirm that I have written such a ...…(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Although it is not numbered, but the first page is your signature. 20 MR CARRIM: Ye s , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , a n d t h a t w a s c o m m i s s i o n e d w h e n – this morning, on 25th? MR CARRIM: Ye s , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. Chair this will be placed properly during the tea break so as to follow Page 54 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 the sequence in the bundle. CHAIRPERSON: It will be placed at the end of CC41. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: At the end of CC41, yes. S o C C 4 1 w i l l t h e n c o n t a i n n o t o n l y M r Yu n u s C a r r i m ’s m a i n a ff i d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s b u t a l s o a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 T h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r C a r r i m c o u l d y o u just place before the Chairperson your qualifications please? MR CARRIM: W e l l I h a v e a n M A i n S o c i o l o g y f o r w h a t t h a t ’s w o r t h a n d an International Diploma in Journalism but I suppose relevance is that I have been an political activist since 1971, I got to Parliament in 1994 and I remained there though now in the National Council of Provinces and the matters before this Commission relate to a brief period of 10 months when I was Minister of Communications. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: MR CARRIM: And what was that period? If I remember correctly 10th of July 2013 to around the 25th of May 2014 when the President announced his new Cabinet. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . I n y o u r p a r a g r a p h f r o m p a g e s 1 right up to page around page 30 you deal with the evolution of the digital migration policy under various Ministers but in – the Commission h a s h e a r d – h a s r e c e i v e d t h a t e v i d e n c e f r o m M r R o y K r u g e r, M r J a n s e n v a n Vu u r e n b u t l a r g e l y f r o m M r R o y K r u g e r w h o w a s i n c h a r g e o f i m p l e m e n t i n g t h a t p o l i c y. Page 55 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Do you know Mr Roy Kruger? MR CARRIM: Ye s i n f a c t h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e a d v i s o r t o M i n i s t e r Dina Pule and he is an expert on digital migration and he was brought in as I recall because of his expertise, the private sector had nominated him and my predecessor had him there and I kept him on. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , a n d w h o w a s y o u r a d v i s o r a t t h e time when you were Minister of Communications? MR CARRIM: It was Joan Juagga whom I appointed and Mr David Nidrey whom I also appointed. 10 Mr Kruger was there already as I explained. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s w i t h o u t t h e n r e h a s h i n g a l l t h e evidence that Mr Roy Kruger has placed before the Commission I would j u s t l i k e y o u i n a v e r y b r i e f w a y t o i d e n t i f y t h e d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n t h e a m e n d m e n t s t h a t w e r e e ff e c t e d d u r i n g y o u r p e r i o d a n d t h o s e t h a t w e r e e ff e c t e d d u r i n g t h e t i m e o f M s M u t h a m b i a n d h o w t h o s e d i ff e r e d a n d h o w t h e y i n y o u r o w n e y e s a ff e c t e d t h e i m p l e m e n t a t i o n o f t h e p o l i c y a s a whole. MR CARRIM: Ye s , w e l l I c a n ’ t r e c a l l e v e r y t h i n g I h a d s a i d J u d g e i n the ...…(intervenes). 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y o u c a n l o o k a t y o u r a ff i d a v i t i f t h a t w i l l r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: MR CARRIM: Ye s . Alright. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O k a y. Page 56 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MR CARRIM: B u t b a s i c a l l y t o s u m m a r y i t I t h i n k w h i l e t h e a ff i d a v i t that I have submitted deals with the technical issues of what digital migration is and what sector control is and why it is so important to diversification of the paid TV Sector Mr Kruger and presumably Mr Garth Stracken from the South African Bureau of Standards had set out the technical issues, but embedded in the first 30 pages or so are the political issues as well and I will focus on that rather than the technical issues. S o i n 2 0 0 8 t h e t h e n M i n i s t e r, M i n i s t e r I v y M a t s e p e - C a s a b u r r i , 10 t h r o u g h C a b i n e t i n t r o d u c e d t h e d i g i t a l m i g r a t i o n p o l i c y. It was very c l e a r a n d e x p l i c i t a n d I e x p l a i n i n m y a ff i d a v i t f u r t h e r h o w t h a t s h e a n d Cabinet felt that there should be encryption or call it sector box control, t h e t e r m w e u s e d i n t h e p e r i o d I w a s t h e M i n i s t e r, s o s h e t h o u g h t i t w a s crucial to have sector box control for a variety ...(indistinct) until M i n i s t e r P u l e i n 2 0 1 2 t w e a k e d t h e p o l i c y. What she did was remove the reference to the term encryption which the experts tell me is a form of STB control, but she didn’t withdraw control itself, because to have to do that in any event you would have to go to the South African Bureau of Standards and change the standard which provided for 20 control. It would take anything between 34 week and 17 months to change that, so she left that term there, so when I got there STB control was still the policy and indeed at the ANC Mangaung C o n f e r e n c e , a s I e x p l a i n i n t h e a ff i d a v i t , t h e r e w a s a s t r o n g e m p h a s i s o n t h e i m p o r t a n c e t o e n s u r e c o m p e t i t i o n i n t h e p a i d T V S e c t o r, w h i c h a t Page 57 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 that time was dominated 98% by MultiChoice/Naspers and it was felt it was important to bring in black, particularly African new entrants and the way to do that was to have a control system so that new entrants can get in, in a way that government has done in various forms of industrial development initiatives, in the automotive industry and so on. I e x p l a i n e d w h y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s t r y w a s s o s t r o n g l y for STB control. So basically when I got there as I explained the environment was 10 to put it m i l d l y, very toxic. Within the Department of Communications there were various fractions and factions regrettably but within the industry too, and we had the ITU, United Nations I n t e r n a t i o n a l Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s U n i o n d e a d l i n e o f J u n e 1 7 , 2 0 1 5 b y which time we should have completed the digital migration process, and in fact it was meant to have been finished when Cabinet opted for it in 2 0 0 8 t h r e e y e a r s h e n c e w h i c h m e a n 2 0 11 , a n d h a v e i n m i n d t h a t 2 0 1 4 elections were looming I thought that this administration of government should complete the process, meet the ITU deadline, finalise the policies and so the new incoming executive could just implement it. So there were those pressing deadlines, but having acquainted 20 myself with the issues it became very clear to me that there was no prospect of the parties themselves meeting the broadcasters concerned or the manufacturers concerned and therefore a facilitation process to seek some consensus, some give and take. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Chair? Ye s , b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d c a n w e g o b a c k t o v o l u m e 8 when Cabinet adopted the policy as formulated by the then Minister of Page 58 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Communication, Dr Ivy Matsepe-Casaburri, do you know whether the ruling party had already adopted a position or policy position or not yet, it was to do that later? MR CARRIM: It is a very good question which I haven’t thought about before, I can’t answer that, but I can certainly assure you Judge, and I have set it out, that the issue of competition in the paid TV Sector was set out very explicitly in the 2012 December ANC conference. What was not set out was the form through which you should secure this competition. 10 CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s . And allow for African entrants into a very monopolised s e c t o r. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s . And what we had at our available disposal was STB control, there was no other option and so we used that, if there was s o m e o t h e r t e c h n o l o g y o r s o m e o t h e r o p t i o n t o d i v e r s i f y, i n f a c t t h e ANC resolution as I recall it says attempts to diversify and encourage c o m p e t i t i o n i n t h e p a i d T V S e c t o r, t h o s e a r e n o t e x a c t w o r d s , I c a n r e f e r t o t h e m i f I h a v e t o , b u t i t i s t h e r e i n t h e a ff i d a v i t , h a v e f a i l e d s o 20 far and more has to be done. So what is certainly clear is by December 2012 the ANC held to the view that you must have competition, subsequently before I went to Cabinet there would have been at least five or six meetings with the NEC Committee on communications where I took the proposal we had Page 59 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 after all those consultations and said to the NEC sub-committee the facilitation process has failed ...…(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b e f o r e y o u f o c u s o n t h a t I w a n t t o g o b a c k a l s o t o w h a t y o u f o u n d w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s M i n i s t e r. MR CARRIM: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a v e t o l d m e a l r e a d y t h a t y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r h a d made some changes as I understand the position. MR CARRIM: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 As I understand it what the policy position was then a f t e r s h e m a d e t h o s e c h a n g e s d i ff e r e d f r o m t h e p o s i t i o n t h a t h a d b e e n approved by Cabinet in 2008, is that right? A m I r i g h t t h a t d i ff e r e d o r not really? MR CARRIM: Well as I said it was a tweaking and ...…(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t i n s u b s t a n c e , i t w a s n o t a c h a n g e i n substance? MR CARRIM: No the idea of sector box control was retained. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s . T h e w o r d i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, a n d i t i s i n m y t e x t a n d i f you like I can refer to it, they dropped the word encryption but the 20 terms STB control was maintained. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s . I should also say in fairness to my predecessor that in her budget speech around March/April of 2013, about three months b e f o r e I b e c a m e t h e M i n i s t e r, s h e h a d h i n t e d t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g t o review the mandatory nature of STB control, but as it happened she Page 60 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 didn’t do anything subsequently so when I got there STB control was s t i l l v e r y m u c h t h e p o l i c y. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: It was not inconsistent with it? No, it was tweaked. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: And that was in line with the 2008 decision? Ye s . Moreover there was in September 2012, I think the 14th o f S e p t e m b e r, m y t e x t w i l l h a v e t h e c o r r e c t d a t e , w h a t w a s p a s s e d w a s 10 t h e S T B M a n u f a c t u r i n g d e v e l o p m e n t p o l i c y. T h e . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) o f Tr a d e and Industry set out why it was important to the growth of the local electronics industry and the creation of some date predicted whether t h a t ’s f e a s i b l e o r p r a c t i c a b l e I d o n ’ t k n o w, 2 3 5 0 0 j o b s h a d s u r f a c e d , that we would use the digital migration process because of its sweeping n a t u r e , i t w a s g o i n g t o t r a n s f o r m t h e e n t i r e b r o a d c a s t i n g i n d u s t r y. It is part also, you see Judge you can’t reduce the matter as I i n s i s t i n t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n s i s t e d w h e n I w a s t h e r e , y o u c a n ’ t r e d u c e i t s i m p l y t o a b r o a d c a s t i n g m a t t e r, i t w a s g o i n g t o transform the broadcasting landscape but even more it was closely 20 linked to the overall economic transformation of South Africa, including crucially its de-rationalisation, so if you look at our broad sociod e v e l o p m e n t g o a l s a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e & I n d u s t r y i f y o u l i k e , a n d y o u c a n c a l l t h e o ff i c i a l s i f y o u c a r e t o , o r h a v e t h e t i m e t o , w e r e always breathing down our neck not to forego control, so in short there was no substantial change when I got there that required us at the time Page 61 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 a s a c o l l e c t i v e t o f o r e g o c o n t r o l , i f a n y t h i n g t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e & Energy said just move they said, just move on this and as I said Judge we tried to strike a balance between the two sides, and we brought in independent facilitators and they failed. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chair ...…(intervenes). O k a y, m a y b e t h a t i s t h e r i g h t t i m e t o t a k e t h e t e a break. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR CARRIM: Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a i r. And therefore you may continue. Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, w e w i l l t a k e t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i l l r e s u m e a t 11 : 3 5 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. We adjourn. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I NQ UI RY RE SUM E S CHAIRPER SON : Okay let us proceed. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Th an k yo u Ch a ir. Th an k yo u . Yes , M r Carrim when you were answering t h e q u e s t i o n s t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n y o u 20 highlighted the d i ffi c u l t i e s with the parties not agreeing an d in p a r a g r a p h 2 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u d e al w i t h s o m e o f t h e – wh a t w e would look at – t h i n k i t w a s a s i m p l e i s s u e b u t w e t h a t t h e p a r t i e s w o u l d d i s a g r e e o n t h e t erms c o nt rol co n ditio n al acce ss and e ncrypt ion . Cou l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a i r, b e c a u s e y o u r, th e pro po se d p olicy o n you r par t wa s d e a l in g w i t h c o n d i t i o n a l a c c e s s , a m I c o r r e c t ? Page 62 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R CARRIM : Well, as we held the term SDB Control, now if you talk to M r K ru g e r a n d o t h e r s , M r M o h a p i a n d o t h e r s w h o s e r v e d a t t h a t t i m e a s t he hea d CE O of Sentech , e xcu se m e , t h e i r v i e w w a s t h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e a variety of types of control. sometimes interchangeably One of which is encryption, another used with the term e n c r y p ti o n , was c o n d i t i o n a l a c c e s s , t h a t u l t i m a t e l y t h e g o v e rn m e n t w a s n o t s o c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e f o r m o f S D B C o n t r o l u s e . T h a t i s a t e ch n o l o g i ca l i s s u e . W h a t we were concerned to do was to achieve the goals, and I have set it out i n t h e a ff i d a v i t , a n d t h e r e i s a b o u t 1 6 g o a l s t h a t w e s o u g h t t o a c h i e v e a n d 10 t hey rev o l v e d a r o u n d t h e i s s u e s I r a i s e d e a r l i e r around diversification, d e-racializ a t i o n , transformation. So, what I must also say J u d g e, e ven th e e xpe rts could n ot a g r e e o n t h e t e r m s S D B C o n t r o l , t h e t e r m en c r y p t i o n a n d c o n d i t i o n a l access. Some of the experts held to the view that there are very specific a n d d i s t i n c t m e a n i n g s . O t h e rs h o w e v er said they are interchangeable, so even after the facilitation process, though the facilitation process sought t o arr i v e a t a d e f i n i t i o n , t h e d i ff e r e n t e x p e r t s , i n c l u d i n g th e sa me exp er t would use the term interch a n g e a b l y. We a r e p o l i t i c i a n s ’ J u dg e . We a r e not technical experts, and I have explained, I have got no broadcasting 20 engineering experience. W h a t w e w a n t e d w as t h e p o l i c y. We a r e politicians. How you achieve t h i s , i s s o m e t h i n g t h e t e c h n i c a l e x p e r t s a n d m a y I s a y J u d g e, I s hou ld ha ve s a i d t h i s a t t h e o u t s e t , I w a s v e r y h o n o u r e d a n d p r i v i l e g e d t o w o r k w i t h a wonderful te am . An d it is a matt e r o f de e p r e g r e t t o m e , a n d I w o u l d l i k e t o a c k n o w l e d g e t h e n t h a t a l l t he Page 63 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 h a r d w o r k t h e y p u t i n h a s c om e t o n o u g h t . M r M o h a p i i s u t t e r l y b r i l l i a n t , h e m a k es t h i s c o u n t r y p r o u d . M r K r u g e r w h o i s a s u p e r-rich person as I understood it, he had retired, decided to come and serve Government, f r om t he pri v at e s ec to r. Mr Nidri w ho s e r v e d t h e p u b l i c m o v e m e n t , th e m o v e m e n t . Came and offered his services. Th e DG, Wa n d a G l a n g a m a n d l a a n d o t h e r s , t h e y, i t i s a d e e p , i t i s a m a t t e r o f d e e p r e g r e t t o m e t h a t a l l t h e w o r k th ey pu t in ha s come t o n o u g h t . S o I m a y I j u s t s a y t h a t o n t h e te r m s , w e t h o u g h t i t i s b e s t t o u s e t he t erm S D B Cont rol bec au se it a void e d th e d i ff erent parties deliberately 10 d i s t o r t i n g t h e p o l i c y. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Yes , thank y ou. An d t h a t i s a d v i c e I g o t f r o m M r K r u g e r a n d M o h a p i a n d o t h e r s , a s I recall it. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON : Yes . So would it be corr e c t t o s a y t h a t f r o m G o v e r n m e n t s p o i n t o f v i e w, a s l o n g a s y o u h a d c o n t r o l , t h a t e n a b l e y o u t o a c h i e v e t h e g oa l s t h a t y o u s o u g h t t o a c h i e v e . I t d i d n o t m a t t e r w h a t t h e f o r m o f t h at c o n t r o l w a s , i s t h a t c orrect? M R CARRIM : 20 I f I am c orr ect, an d ag ain ma y I stre ss , I a m n o law yer, th e a d v i c e w e g o t w i t h i n t h e Department s l a w y e r s a n d p e r h a p s o u t s i d e r s w a s t hat th e e TV Court judgment precluded the Minister from deciding on what f or m th e c o n t r o l s h o u l d t a k e a n d w e d i d n o t w a n t t o u n d e r m i n e t h e 2 0 1 2 Court J u d g me n t t hat Advocate Norman referred to. CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes , y es . M o r e o v e r, t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e t h r ea t e n i n g u s o n b o t h s i d e s . Page 64 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 eTV and them wanted control set if you drop control, we will take you to Court, led by MultiChoice. MultiChoice, SABC an d N A M E C – Th e Na tion a l Association of Manufacturers in Electronic Components, said if you go a h e a d w i t h c o n trol, we will take you to Court. So to avoid Court action from both sid e s w e e v o l v e d a p o l i c y t h a t s a i d , t h o s e w h o w a n t t o u s e c o n t r o l , t h e y c a n u se i t , b ut th ey wi l l have to pay appropriately for the extra, at that stage equivalent of 18 to 2 0 R a n d s o n t he S D B Control System . Th ey w ill ha ve to p a y f or it. No t 2 0 R a n d s , a s e T V h i n t e d i n o n e o f i t s Court representations, but far more. 10 I nt eres t in gly Chairpe rson, a Minister advised me, who is far more a c c o m p l i s h e d i n t h e E c o n o m i c s s p h e r e , w h y d o y o u n o t t a ke t h e m o n e y y o u w i l l s e c u r e a s a p r o f i t o n p u t t i n g i n t h e S D B C o n t r o l an d g i v e i t t o SABC which n e e d s t h e m o n e y. So that is what we intended, tha t is wh a t w e st art ed to d o w it h National Treasury. We started engaging with them to say, the profits we g e t f rom th e u s e of t he Control System which bordered on 20 Rand, and which was negligible given the o v e r a l l c o s t o f t h e S D B a n d g i v e n t h e dividends that will come to Government. Government invests over 7 b i l l i o n , a c c o r d i n g t o t h e D T I , i n a r e a s l i k e a u t o m a t i on a n d m i n i n g a n d s o 20 on. It puts money in because you derive from its revenue. So, in short, we were not doing anything which was specifically diffe re nt f rom the DTI a p p r o v e d – Ca b i n e t a p p r o v e d I n d u s t r i a l P o l i c y D e v e l o p m e n t I n c e n t i v e s . We do it all the ti m e , w e p r o v i d e t a x i n c e n t i v e s . S o , i n s h o r t , I w i l l s t o p t here. CHAIRPERSON : Yes , y es . Page 65 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R CARRIM : M a y I s u g g e s t C h a i r p e r s o n , I a m g o i n g o n fo r t o o lo n g , y o u o b v i o u s l y f r e e t o t e l l m e M r C a r r i m , …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : No, no that is fine. You k now we are politic ians ; we c an k eep y ou here, …(intervene s ) . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : No n o I u n d e r s t a n d . Regrettably that is ou r voca tio n. Yo u are J u d g es a n d lawyers and you want to be precise well I am not a lawyer I am afraid, a n d I am w h a t I a m . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Well I can tell you that lawyers are acc u s e d o f b e i n g l o n g-winded t oo. O ka y, M s Norman? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Yes , ye s, th an k you C ha ir. Tha nk you, an d y o u h a v e h i g h l i g h t e d – y o u h a v e d e a l t – y o u h a v e t o u c h e d o n t h e SABS s t andard s , bu t h ow were you an d w he n you we re p ro p osin g t h e a m e n d m e n t s t o t he pol ic y, h o w – wh a t me c h a n i s m s d i d y o u a t l e a s t p u t i n p l a c e t o m a k e s u r e t ha t w h a t e v e r S e t To p B o x e s f i n d t h e i r w a y w i t h i n t h e c o u n t r y, t h e y w o u l d h a v e a t l e a s t b e e n m a n u f a c t u r e d wi t h i n t h e c o u n t r y, a n d i f n o t w h a t b e n e f i t s w o u l d t h e l o c a l m a n u f a c t urers derive from Set To p B ox e s t h a t w e r e n o t m a n u f a c t u r e d w i t h i n t h e c o u n t r y? 20 M R CARRIM : Well Chairperson, it was the usual story, and perhaps to g e t s o m e b o d y s e n i o r, w h o w a s i n D T I a t th e t ime w ill b e mo re help ful to t he C om m is s io n f or a more t ech n icall y a n d e c o n o m i c a l l y s o u n d a ns w e r, b u t a s I u n d e r s t o o d i t w e f i r s t a n d f o r e m o st fe lt , if Go ve rn me nt i s i n v e s t i n g t o g i v e S e t To p B o x e s t o 5 . 2 b i l l i o n p e o p l e w h o a r e i n d i g e n t , who are earnin g b e l o w a c e r t a i n …(intervenes). Page 66 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON : Wa s t h a t m i l l i o n o r ra t h e r b i l l i o n ? ADV THA ND I NO R M A N SC: M R CARRIM : Sorry, it is 5.2 mil l i o n , s o r r y. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Ja. Yes . Right and the amount would run into b i l l i o n s , w e f e l t t h a t we have to protect our investment and part of t h a t a m o n g s t 7 o r 8 reasons, f or t he c o n t r o l s y s t e m was to encourage the grow th o f the e l e c t r o n i c i n d u s t r y i n o u r c o u n t r y. We a l s o i n t r o d u c e d c o n t r o l , t a k i n g i n t o 10 a c c o u n t W TO r e s t r i c t i o n s to p re ven t ou r marke t from bein g flo ode d wit h c h e a p i m p o r t s t h a t w i ll n o t f u n c t i o n p r o p e r l y. Experts drew to my attention and may I say Chairp e r s o n, I h a v e had the privileges under Apartheid of Education and I have for what it is worth, a Master ’s Degre e i n S o c i o l o g y a n d a n I n t e r n a t i o n a l D i p l o m a i n Journalism. S o , I h a ve p r i v i l e g e s t h a t p e r h a p s so m e o t h e r M i n i s t e r s i n our Cabinet did not have. So, I a m a jo urn a list , I re a d o n my o wn , a c o n s i d e r a b l e a m o u n t , b e c a u s e I f e l t I s h o u l d n o t b e c o m e b e h o l d en t o t ec hnic a l ex perts . S o I did a lo t of re adin g t o o, an d it se e me d t o b e reasonable what they were saying, that these cheap Set To p B o x e s t h a t 20 h a v e n o Control System , we re u se d in Ma urit ius a nd I G o o g l e d i t m y s e l f a n d I f o u n d t h a t t h e y w e r e d y s f u n c t i o na l t h e r e . And we were concerned that some of them were already c i r c u l a t in g i n s i d e t h e c o u n t r y, a n d i t w a s a l l e g e d t h a t s o m e 7 0 0 0 0 o f t hem o r th ere , t hat n u m b e r were hold up in the Richards Bay port. They were meant to be brought in but because they di d n o t m e e t t h e S o u t h Page 67 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 African Bureau of Standards, they were not allowed to b e b r o u g h t i n . Secon d l y, a s I e x p l a i n i n t h e a ff i d a v i t , f o r y o u t o c h a n g e th e S ABC Standard, and Chairperson you will find annexures to that effect, even i n c l u d i n g a l e t t e r. Th e South African Bureau of Standards said that the minimum it will take, it is t heir l et te r C h airp e rson, the minimum it will take is 34 weeks to get agree m e n t . And that is of course only if there is consensus a m o n g s t t h o s e f e r o c i o u s l y o p p o s e d t o c o n t r o l a n d th o se f ero ciou s l y s u p p o r t i n g c o n t r o l . T h e y s a i d t h e l a s t t i m e t h e y c h a n g e d th e st an da rd – 10 SABS st andard , i t t oo k 16 t o 17 mo nth s an d give n t he ve ry lim i t e d prospects at arriving at consensus on the standard, they could not see it h a p p e n i n g a n y s o o n e r. So b e c a u s e t h e I T U d e a d l i n e w a s l o o m i n g , t h e t e r m o f t h e Parliament and Gove rnment were ending aro u n d A p r i l / M a y 2 0 1 4 , w e d e c i d e d t o r e t a i n t h e s t a n d a r d , whic h i s w h a t t h e p r e v i o u s M i n i s t e r, e v e n t hough s he mi gh t ha ve been e dg in g to wa rds d ea lin g wit h re vie win g S D B Control, could not move, she was stuck with it, because she knew p r es u m a b l y, I c a n n o t s p e ak f o r h e r, i t w o u l d t a k e a v e r y l o n g t i m e t o change. 20 ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Yes and whils t y ou interac t again c ons ulting v a r i o u s s t a k e h o l d e r s o n t h e m e a s u r e s th a t yo u ju st e lud ed t o, IC ASA – y o u w o u l d h a v e k e p t I CASA o n Board a n d I s e e y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d a n n e x u r e 2 i s w h i c h i s a l e t t e r f r o m IC ASA which was s a y i ng t o y o u , t h e m e a s u r e s t h a t y o u w e r e p r o p o s i n g t o m a k e t h e S e t To p B o x c o n t r o l n o n m a n d a t o r y w hi l e y o u a r e s e t t i n g t h e G o v e r n m e n t r e s p o n s e w h i c h i s t o Page 68 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 p r o t e c t i t s i n v e s t m e n t i n s u b s i d i s e d S e t To p B o x ’s b e i n g t h e w i s d o m o f Solomon to an intractable mat te r o n w h i c h a l l s t a k e h o l d e r s a r e u n l i k e l y t o agree. That appears Chair at page 87. S o , I w o u l d i ma g i n e w h e n t h e …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : Hang on one moment you have started b y r e a d i n g b e f ore you could tell us where to turn to. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON : Page 87. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: 10 I beg your pardon Chair page 87. Yes , y es . That i s a l e t t e r f r o m IC ASA which was addressed to Mr Carrim. M R CARRIM : Yes , well first ly p erh a ps I sh o uld ju st qu ickly expla in w ha t was the policy we adopted ; th e r e w a s t h o s e t h a t w e r e a g g r e s s i v e l y o p p o s e d t o c o n t r o l , g o i n g t o C o u r t t h e y s a i d , t h e r e w e r e t ho s e w h o f o r c o n t r o l a n d s a i d i f y o u c h a n g e t h e p o l i c y w e a r e g o i n g t o t a k e i t t o Court. So we sa i d f i n e , w h a t w e g o i n g t o t h e n d o i s m a k e S D B c o n t r o l t h e ch o i c e o f w h e t h e r y o u w a n t t o u s e c o n t r o l o r y o u d o n o t w a n t t o n o n -m a n d a t e , s o t hos e w ho want t o us e i t t h e y c a n d o s o b u t t h e y w i l l h a v e t o p a y f o r i t , a n d t h o s e w h o d o n o t w a n t to u s e i t a r e f r ee n o t t o u s e i t a n d t h e y c a n d e c i d e l a t e r d o w n t h e r o a d a s te c h no l o g y e v o l v e s w h e t h e r t h e y n e e d i t o r 20 n o t . S o , w e t h e n s a i d h o w e v e r, t o p r o t e c t t h e m a n u f a c t u r in g i n d u s t r y t o m e e t t h e r e q u i r e m e n t s o f D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s t r y t o m e e t a whole number o f g o a l s a n d i s a n o t h e r 1 4 g o a l s w e s e t o u t a n d i t i s s e t o ut i n the affi dav i t. We will say that the Set Top Box will have a control mechanism f or an ext ra 2 0 rounds at the time, it is about 2 US Dollars i f I a m c o r r e c t Page 69 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 a n d t h o s e w h o w a n t t o u s e i t t h e y p a y, t h o s e w h o d o n o t w a n t t o u s e i t d o n o t h a v e t o p a y. S o, t h e d e c i s i o n i f w h e t h e r y o u w a n t t o u s e i t o r n o t i s y o u r s . B u t t h e m a n u f a c t u r i n g a n d th e ot he r n e ed s or g o als of the Se t To p Box policy control policy from 2008 onwards includi n g du r i n g t h e t i m e o f M r P h u l e w o u l d b e r e s p e c t e d a n d i t w i l l b e r e p r e s e n t e d i n the manufacturing part of it having the SDB controlling any case. J u d g e , a b o u t a ye a r b e f o r e I g o t a p p o i n t e d t h e Department advertised for a tender and it was on the basis of a Control System and it we had foregone the Control System we could also ha v e b e e n t a k e n t o 10 Court by the manufacturers who had invested hundreds of thousands of Ra n d s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f g e t t i n g r e a d y f o r a S D B w h i c h w o u l d h a v e a Control System t hey inve ste d t ha t m o n e y a n d t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n Communications Forum which is yet another o r ga n i z a t i o n r e p r e s e n t i n g very powerful African entrepreneurs hinted to us or at least informally t hat t he re are pe op l e wh o a re a ffilia te d t o t he m will t a ke us to Co u r t b e c a u s e t h e y t e n d e r e d f o r a SDB Control System , Ministe r, if yo u d ro p i t t hen w e are g o i n g t o tak e yo u t o C ou rt. So, t o man a ge all of th is Jud ge it is not rocket science as a Judge you would probably if I may presume to s a y a r r i v e a t t h e s a m e t h i n g , y o u s a y i n g n o co n t ro l y o u s a y i n g c o n t r o l , 20 f i n e y o u c an e ac h d ec ide , but w e h ave to pro t e ct G o v ernment’s interest and our investment and our manufacturing industry and for what it is worth may I repeat the September 2014 Industrial Development Policy in t he ele c tro ni c s i n d u s try which was gazetted, approved by Cabinet was to create at least 23500 jobs. So, yes we had to protect it and IC ASA g o e s o n t o s a y i f I m a y Page 70 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 p o i n t o u t C h a i r p erson, that so we urge you to proceed with the a m e n d m e n t s b u t t h e y a l s o s a y w e b e l i e v e t h e m ea s u r e s a r e r e a s o n a b l e a n d f a i r a n d s h o u l d s u r v i v e l e g a l c h a l l e n g e . I n d e e d , we g o t a t l e a s t t w o opinions, one internal one external that said that the policy we adopted on the 4th of December 2013 was legally tenable. May I also say Judge, what I find qui t e o ff e n s i v e a n d w h a t p a r t l y d r i v e s t h i s a ff i d a v i t u n a p o l o g e t i c a l l y w a s i t go t p e r s o n a l i z e d t o m e p e r s o n a l l y. I wa s t arg et ed b y MultiC ho ice as I sa y la ter in a n a d v e r t t h a t g o e s t o t h e e x t reme exte nt of sa ying seve ral new spa per s, Su nd ay 10 n e w s p a p e r s – I t h i n k a l l t h e S u n d a y, C i t y P r e s s , S u n d a y Ti m e s t h e y p u t a n a d v e r t i n t o s a y s o m e t hi n g t o t h i s e ff e c t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t words but they in the text that you r policies like it is mine. Your policies, M i n i s t e r, r e p r e s e n t t h e n a r r o w c o m m e r c i a l i n t e r e s t i m p l y i n g e T V o b v i o u s l y a n d t h e y d o n o t r e p r e s e n t t h e i n t e r e s t o f o u r n a t i o n Cha i r p e r s o n , n o t i c e y o u r a s i f I a m a r g i n a l M i n i s t e r a s i f I a Non -M E C M e m b e r n e v e r mi n d I have been around since 1971, I could as I have replied to Mr Andre Pierre Du Plessis sai d i n t h e D a i l y M a v e r i c k r e s p o n s e t o h i s D a i l y M a v e r i c k p i e c e I s a i d y o u k n o w i t i s a l m o s t i m p l y i n g t h a t t h e Cabinet were sheep t hat I wa s s ome s ort of she p herd , t h a t I a m m a r g i n a l M i n i s t e r a n e w l y 20 a p p o i n t e d M i n i s t e r n o t i n t h e M E C c o u l d s h e p h e r d t h e l i k e s o f, ca n yo u – c a n y o u i m a g i n e C h a i r p e r s o n , N a l e d i P a n d o , Tr e v o r M a n u a l , A r o n M o ts o l e d i , b e i n g s h e p h e r d e d b y m e ? I t is my pol ic y, it is not min e it wa s the re sin c e 2 0 0 8 , i t w a s confirmed by the ANC, the MEC Committee up till eighteen months ago Mr J a c k s o n M t h e m b u was chairing the MEC communications repeated that Page 71 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 STB control remai n s t h e A N C p o l i c y a s f a r a s I k n o w i t s t i l l i s . ridges to me. strange. So, it Secondly, it is we are representing our nation, so it is I a m a n e l e c t e d p u b l i c r e p r e s e n t a t i v e , I am in G o v e r n m e n t I h a v e b e e n t h e r e s i n c e 1 9 7 1 a n d n o w y o u t a k e t h e i r r e p r e s e nta ti v e n o t t h e Government our nation and your policies, you getting very personalized a round me, so that explains my letters of 14 t h Fe bru a ry to Mr No no t hele . CHAIRPERSON : Yes . ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Yes , thank y ou. And then y o u d e a l o f h a v i n g o u t l i n e d t he STB control and the workings and everything that is 10 a r o u n d t h a t i s y o u h a v e t e s t i f i e d n o w. Then you deal with subheading e n t i t l e d H o w N A S F I S s o u g h t t o i n f l u e n c e G o v e r n m e n t p ol i c y o n d i g i t a l m i g r a t i o n y o u w i l l f i n d t h a t a t p a g e s t a r t i n g f r o m p ag e a t th e en d o f p a g e 3 1 t o 3 2 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t …(d i s t u r b a n c e i n r e c o r d i n g). I NQ UI RY ADJOURNS I NQ UI RY RE SUM E S CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, l e t u s c o n t i n u e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . Thank y o u , Chair. Mr Carrim we are s t i l l d e a l i n g w i t h y o u r s u b h e a d i n g t h a t a p p e a r s at the e n d o f p a g e 3 1 . Could you just tell the Chair what you mean by the influ e n c e t h a t y o u 20 a l l u d e t o i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h – i n th o se p a rag rap h s? M R C A R R I M: Fi rs t ly, w e ha ve to u n d erstand as I see it on page 32 p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 3 , I s e t o u t t h e r e t h e a b s o l u t e do m i n a n c e o f N a s p e r s . Chairperson, at the time that I was serving this particula r role, Naspers a n d M u l t i C h o i c e w e r e – Nas p e r s i s a h o l d i n g c o m p a n y, M u l t i C h o i c e w a s i t s s u b s i d i ary a n d a s I r e m e m b e r i t a p a r t f r o m Te n c e n t t h e i n v e s t m e n t b y Page 72 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Naspers in the Chi n e s e i n t e r n e t c o m p a n y, M u l t i C h o i c e w a s t h e b i g m o n e y s p i n n e r. I t h a d 9 8 % o f p a i d TV. So th at is w hy I re fe r to Na s p e r s / M u l t i C h o i c e i n t h e a ff i d a v i t b e c a u s e M u l t i C h o i c e c o u l d n o t h a v e done many of the things it did were it not part of this powerful, at that time, third largest media company in the world. And so that is why I say Naspe rs/MultiChoice. Secondly, the need for competition was because we were t ac k li ng and we c o nt inu ed t o d o m o n o p o l i e s . have transformation charges. 10 In the mining sector we In t h e b a n k i n g s e c t o r, i n t h e a u d i t i n g p r o f e s s i o n , i t i s p e r f e c t l y r e a s o n a b l e f o r th e a v e r a g e M i n i s t e r o r p o l i t i c a l a c t i v i s t t o a l s o w a n t t o s e c u r e s o m e d e g r e e o f d i v e r s i f i c a t i o n i n th e p a i d T V S ec to r. M or eo v er, i f you h ave co mp etit ion , you r edu ce t he co st o f watching paid TV. Who watches paid TV if not the elites? Furthermore, t he S ABC is a public broadcaster. It was providing a 24 -h o u r c h a n n e l a n e w s c h a n n e l o n a p a i d T V s e r vi c e . A n d i f w e g o t d i g i t a l m i g r a t i o n g o i n g t hen it s houl d als o bec ome availa b l e as S A B C i t s e l f s a i d t o fre e to a i r, a n y b o d y c a n w a t c h i t e v e n i f t h e y d o n o t h av e a p a i d T V s e r v i c e . So, from 103 onwards what we do is focus on the power of Naspers. 20 It w a s o b v i o u s l y l a u n c h e d m o r e t h a n a c e n t u r y a g o a s t h e m o u t hp i e c e o f t h e N a t i o n al P a rty at the time. And we say here that it was t he onl y i nte res t ing m edi a g rou p t h a t r e f u s e d t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e T R C . Th irdl y, it do mi n at ed t he combin ed pre sence of all o th e r – a l l o f i t s c o m p e t i t o r s . I n f a c t , t h e s e f a c t s I g o t b y Mr Nidri, he was m y – o n e o f m y t w o a d v i s o r s a t t h e t i m e , a n d i t i s d r a w n f r o m a b o o k o r a p u b l i c a t io n of some sort by Professor Eli Noam of the University of Columbia who Page 73 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 s a i d i n h i s b o o k , w h o o wn s t h e w o r l d ’s m e d i a , m e d i a c o n c e n t r a t i o n a n d o w n e r s h i p a r o u n d t h e w o r l d . T ha t Na s p e r s o w n m e d i a 2 4 w a s e x t r e m e l y p o w e r f u l . I n f a c t , a t t h e t i m e t h e P r o f e s s o r I ga th e r sa id th a t So ut h Af ric a is the fifth most concentrated media market in the world. An d t hen I s ig ht exa mp le s of it righ t th a t N asp e rs was on e o f 20 South African c o m pa n i e s , th a t is 1 03 .4 C ha irpe rson, liste d in the Forbe s 2000 Global Companies. South Africa was in the world’s Top -5 m o s t concentrated markets Chairperson. M e d i a2 4 a c c o u n t e d f o r m o r e t h a n 60% of the daily papers more than 50% of the weeklies more than 70% of 10 t he ma gaz i ne s . n e w s p a p ers. A c c ounted f or ne arly ha lf of all o f t h e c o m mu n i ty So, they would buy up knock and drop news paper and c o n t r o l i t . S o t h a t w a s t h e .. .(ind istin c t ) m o d e l i n g i f i t i s t h e c o r r e c t w o r d . And it also had – I g o o n t o s a y 1 .3 6 0 Chairperson, a monopoly in t er res t ria l and s ubs c ri pti on TV. ADV THANDI NORMAN S C: Yes . M R C A R R I M: More than 98% of direct satellite subscriptions and it c o n t r o l l e d t h e l a r g e st i n t e r n e t c o m p a n y t h r o u g h M W E B . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Th an k yo u. And yo u refe r from paragraph 1 0 5 o n w a r d s t o t h e S A B C M u l t i C h o i c e a g r e e m e n t a n d I s e e y o u h av e u s e d 20 t he t erm t here, c ontro v ersial. In fa ct , in t he SO S jud g me n t t h a t I re f e rre d t he Chair t o i n t h e m o r n i n g w r i t t e n b y J u s t i c e K a t h r e e-Setiloane J u d g m e n t o f t h e C o m m o n Cour t , she use s t he very t erm of cont roversia l, t h e c o n t r o v e r s i a l a g r e e m e n t . W h a t were – wh e n y o u – i t was signed before your time? M R C A R R I M: Yes . Page 74 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . That is a few days before you are a p p o i n t e d f o r. M R C A R R I M: O n t h e 3 r d J u d g e. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . M R C A R R I M: And I think I was appointed on the 10 t h . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : O n t h e 1 0 t h . M R C A R R I M: A week before. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . And y o u l i s t t h e r e t h e t e r m s t h a t y o u f el t th ere were s ort of cri pp ling the SA BC in a w a y. C o u l d y o u j u s t b r i e f l y 10 t el l t he Ch ai r wh at you fe lt t he eff ects of t h e a g r e e m e n t w e r e o n t h e SABC? M R C A R R I M: O k a y. S o f i r s t l y, f r o m w h a t I c a n t e l l C h a i r p e r s o n a t the t i me su bs eque nt l y Ms There sa Ge lden huys su bm itt e d a n a ff id a vit t o wh ic h s h e a t t a c h e d M i n u t e s o f Board Meeting s , S A B C Board a n d S A B C Board Committee m e e t i n g s . I ha ve be e n t hrou g h t hem sin ce Friday nig ht whe n I received them and I am not sure whether it h a s b e e n t a b l e d h e r e y e t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Chair yes, we are going to re f e r t o t h e m . She – M s T h e r e s a G e l d e n h u y s i s o n e o f t h e i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n s . I n fa c t , she responds to a statement made by Mr Carrim that they were from time 20 t o t i me as k ed to c h a n g e t he minu te s. So , in re spon se t o tha t sh e f ile d a n a ff i d a v i t a n d s h e at t ac h e d v a r i o u s s e t s o f m i n u t e s . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Th at is t he co nte xt . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. M R C A R R I M: So, I have looked at those minutes sinc e F r id a y n i g h t a n d Page 75 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 as boring as they were, I cannot find anything. They go up to I think 2015 i n a Board Meeting where the decision to have this agreement with MultiChoice was adopted. So, the first point is it was never it seems to m e u n l e s s e v i d e n c e s urface s A d v o c a t e N o r m a n e v e r a d o p t e d b y a Board M e e t i n g u n t i l v e r y l a t e , a b o ut 14 m o n t h s l a t e r. I g a t h e r f r o m t h e m e d i a t hat by a v ot e of ei g ht t o six th e su bseq u e n t Board s , s o m e 1 4 m o n t h s a f t e r t h e 3 r d o f J u l y s i g n ed – a g r e e d t o t h e M u l t i C h o i c e a g r e e m e n t . M a y I a l s o t a k e t h i s o p p o r tu n i ty a s I s h o u l d h a v e d o n e a t t h e o u t s e t C h ai r p erson to say that I did not write in my affidavit in paragraph, 10 I th ink i t is 1 79 , th a t M s G e l d e n h u y s t o l d m e p e r s o n a l l y t h a t a t t i m e s s h e was under pressure to change the minut e s . I s a i d s h e h a d s a i d t h a t a s well as some Board Members . An d I wa nt to s t r es s t h a t s h e m o s t c e r t a i n l y d i d n o t t e l l m e a n d t o t h e e x t e n d I f o r m u l a t e d t h a t c l u ms i l y, I regret it. I have no intention of impugning her integrity. So, she certainly d i d n ot tel l m e . But it is certainly not true where she says, in fact, she says I q u o t e h e r, “ I h a v e n e v e r h a d a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h M r C a r r i m ” . T h a t i s n o t t enabl e be c a u s e I w e n t r e p e a t a b l y t o t h e S A B C H Q a t Board Meeting s t here and I di d hav e ex c h ang es mo stl y a r o un d p l e a s a n t r i e s . 20 What I do recall unless I have got it wrong, she see m e d a t t i m e s t o b e e x t r e m e l y stressed. Why she was stressed I cannot say for sure. B ut a t so m e stage it seemed to me it was around the time that there was Ms Lulama M o k h o b o t h e Group E x e c u t i v e o n t h e o n e s i d e a n d t h e r e w a s M s S a n d i l e Ts h a b a l a l a t h e Board c h ai r a n d M r M o t s o e n e n g t h e A c t i n g C E O o n t h e o t h e r s i d e . I t s e e m e d t o r e v o l v e a r o u n d M s L u l a m a ’s d e p a r t u r e , t h a t i s Page 76 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 what it seemed to me. And it seemed to be the tensions withi n t h e SABC Board b u t c e r t a i n l y s h e n e v e r t o l d m e . Now where did I get thi s f r o m ? Department . From people within the I h av e s i nc e t ried to a sk t hem t o se nd you a n a ff i d a v i t i n t hat regard . A t t hi s s tage p eop le are fee ling ill a t ea se , let us p u t it t h a t way. M ay I a ls o ta k e t hi s o p p o r tu n i ty Chairperson if I may to say, quite a few people who know a lot about what happened during my tenure there said, Mr Carrim or they still call you Minister Chairperson although you m a y n o t – i t i s a d e m o c r a c y. O n c e y o u a r e n o t r e a p p o i n t e d o r f i r e d y o u 10 a r e n o m o r e a M i n i s t e r. I a m n o t a t r ad i t i o n a l l e a d e r ; th ey are n o t M i n i s t e rs f o r l i f e . B u t i n c l u d i n g t h e S A P S p e rs o n n e l s a y s , h e l l o M i n i s t e r. I h av e t o rem i nd h i m I am not a Min iste r, tha t is a n cie n t h ist ory. So, t he y s a y, M i n i s t e r we totally agree with you. We are very g l a d y o u a r e g o in g fo r w a r d . B u t p l e a s e w e c a n n o t a p p e a r t h e r e . S o , I p r o b e t h e m a n d t h e y w i l l s ay, n o w e a r e s t i l l i n t h e p u b l i c s e c t o r a n d w e d o n o t k n o w w h a t w i l l h a p p e n a t t h e t o p . S e c o n d l y, th e y s a y, I a m n o t i n t he pub li c se c to r wh ere they n ot b ut I w ork wit h t h e p u b li c s e c t o r o r w a n t t o c ome bac k t o t he Department s o I c a n n o t v o l u n t e e r m y n a m e. So , I commit that I will find out if I can find you a person but take it that she 20 d i d n o t t e l l m e be c a u s e t h a t i s a f a c t . M a y I a l s o s a y t h i s b e c a u s e i t h a s b e e n s o m e t hi n g th a t I sa id i n t he o ut s et o f m y affi dav i t b ecau se it is no w remo ved f ro m t h at first ha lf of m y a ff i d a v i t t o t h e s e c o n d . I would just like to read to you because I t hi n k i t i s i m p o rtant Chairperson if you feel I am being irrelevant then o b v i o u s l y y o u are i n c h a r g e . Page 77 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON : J a . M R C A R R I M: You tell me no. CHAIRPERSON : No, no, tha t is fin e. M R C A R R I M: So, I would like to read this because it comes from the b o t t o m o f m y h e art r e a l l y. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: And I think it is important as a p o l i t i c i a n a s i f y o u l i k e m a n y will call me a veteran. 50 years now since I first b e c a m e p o l i t i c a l a c t i v e in high school. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: I sa y in c l ause 5 …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : M a y I a s k w h e r e y o u a r e r e a d i n g f r o m ? M R C A R R I M: Cl a u s e 5 …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : Paragraph. M R CARRIM : O r p a r a g r a p h 5 o r p a g e 4 . CHAIRPERSON : Paragraph 5. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : O h , r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g . CHAIRPERSO N: O f y o u r a ff i d a v i t . M R C A R R I M: I am go ing to sa y th is at th e o utse t C ha irp e r s on . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Yes . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . M R C A R R I M: But I am not seeking to distract from the question. I know it full well. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: And I will c o m e – a n d y o u w i l l m a k e s u r e t h a t I d o . Page 78 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON : No, that is fine. ADV THA ND I N ORM AN S C: Yes . M R C A R R I M: But I do feel th a t I sh ou ld sa y it b efo re it esca pes me . CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: I sa y t here ; I fu lly sup p ort th e t ra dit iona l : “Co m m i s s i o n o f I n q u i r y i n t o a l l e g a t i o n s i n S t a t e C a p t u r e , c o r r u p t i o n a n d f r a u d i n th e p u b l i c s e c t o r i n c l u d i n g O r g a n s o f t h e State . A nd co m m e n d t h e w o r k t h a t i t i s d o i n g . I confirm my cooperation with the Commission. 10 6 . I d id n ot app roa ch th e C ommission w ith an y c o m pl a i n t s about my experience as a Minister nor did I nudge a n y b o d y t o d o so . It w as t he Co mmission th at a p p r o a c h e d m e f o r c o o p eration. I was in fact asked by a f e w M i n i s t e rs , s e n i o r m e m b e r s o f t h e A N C a n d Alliance leaders and others to approach the Co m m i s s i o n a b o u t m y e x p e r i e n c e a s a M i n i s t e r. B u t I d i d n o t w a n t t o a s I f e l t th at th e Co mmissio n h a s e n o u g h o n i t s p l a t e . I a l s o fe l t t h a t m y e x p e r i e n c e w a s f ar o v ers hado w ed C ha irp erson b ut – b y t h a t a f o r m e r 20 Deputy Minister Jonas, Minister Gordhan, Form e r Ministers Ramatlhodi, Hogan and others as well as Senior Civil servants suc h a s M r M a s e k o a n d M s Williams. Besides I did not want i t t o s e e m a s i f I a m some sort of “cry baby” running to the Commission to t ry t o s et tl e po litical sco res be ca use I wa s no t Page 79 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 reapp o i n t e d elections. as a Minister after the May 2014 A n y w a y, i n s o m e c i rc l e s, po lit ical circles t here is a s ens e tha t tho se fo r m e r M i n i s t e r s a n d o t h e r s were removed from positions or not reappointed a p p r o a c h e d t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o s e t t l e p o l i t i c a l s c o r es .” An d e l s e w h e r e i n t h e a ff i d a v i t y o u w i l l s e e I r e s p o n d t o t h a t . I k n e w it w as a l l u d i n g . I w a s 1 0 0 % s u r e . I h a v e t o l d p e o p l e pu b l i c l y s o I will say it here. I thought I was going to be moved as Minister of Communications and put in a so called safe l i k e De p u t y M i n i s t e r o f A r t s 10 a n d C u l t u r e o r D e p u t y M i n i s t e r o f S c i e n c e a n d Tec h n ol o g y u n d e r p o w e r f u l M E C M i n i s t e r. S o , I a m n o t a problem. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . M R C A R R I M: So, what surprised me was that they removed all together t he Ex e cut ive s . B u t t h a t I wa s re move d as a Minister …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Sorr y, ma y b e a t t h a t p o i n t . M R C A R R I M: J a . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Could you just tell the Chair how you got to know that you were going to be removed as a Minister? M R C A R R I M: Wel l t h i s is a s u b j e c t o f a n o v e l . I o n c e s a i d t o s o m e b o d y, 20 a j o u r n a l i s t , i f y o u writ e t h i s s t o r y o f S e t To p B o x c o n t r o l ov e r t h e 1 0 y e a r s o r s o a s a n o n-f ic t ion C ha irpe rso n , yo ur edit or a nd pu b lishe r wi l l s a y, n o , n o , t h i s i s f i c t i o n . We h a v e g o t s o m e v e r y c o l orf u l c h a r a c t e r s h e r e , v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g a n d s o m e o f t h e e -m a i l s t h a t w i l l presu m a b l y b e a d j u d i c a t e d o n f o r t h e i r a u th e n t i c i t y w h i c h w i l l c o m e t o y o u p r e s u m a b l y also convey that. Page 80 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 So very shortly after the December 4 t h , 20 13 , I d o n o t h ave i t e x a c t l y c l e a r C h ai r p e r s o n , i t i s a b i t h a z y b e c a u s e s o m u c h h a p p e n e d i n t he 1 0 m ont hs. So, I t hin k it w as a rou n d t he 22 n d o f D e ce m b e r, I w e n t o n leave by 24th. The fi rs t t e nd to ca me f rom t h e priva te sect or fr om a p e r s o n I t h i n k w a s s y m p a t h e t i c t o c o n t r o l . H e s a id , M i n i s t e r we hear you a r e b e i n g r e m o v e d . S o , I s a i d , w h a t e v e r h a p p e n s, h a p pe n s . You are all b e i n g r e m o v e d i n A p r i l 20 1 4 . I understood the election will take place t hen. But i t go es on i n …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : Th is is De cemb er 20 13 ? 10 M R C A R R I M: Yes , y es , t w o w e e k s a f t e r t h e Cabinet a d o p t e d t h a t A N C p o l i c y a n d …(intervene s ) . CHAIRPERSO N: Yes . M R C A R R I M: So then going into Ja n u a r y I h a p p e n e d t o e n d u p i n D a v o s because theme for that year January 2014 was something to do with the 4 t h i n d u s t r i a l revolutio n . S o , t h e P r e s i d e n t a s k e d m e a s t h e M i n i s t e r o f Communications to go . S o, w h en I g e t t h e r e , t h e r e i s a b o u t t h r e e o r f o u r Senior African Business p e o p l e w h o i n d i ff e r e n t w a y s a p p r o a c h e d m e . O n e o f t h e m c e r t a i n l y s a y i n g h e t h i n k s t h e p o l i c y i s fa n t a s t i c . He has b e e n i n t h e b r o a d c a s t i n g s e c t o r – I will not bore you with tha t. A n o t h e r 20 came to me and said, you are going to be in trouble or was very s y m p a t h e t i c t o t h e p o l i c y. T h e y a r e g o i n g t o r e m o v e y o u a n d y o u k n o w who you are taking on, the thi rd largest m e d i a i n d u s t r y i n t h e w o r l d . A n d t hey re fe r t o p ers o ns s o w e’re n ot h e r e . Well th e r e i s n o t h i n g t o h i d e y o u a r e t a k i n g o n K o o s B e k k e r. D o y o u k n o w w h a t y o u a r e d o i n g ? We l l t h a t was a repeated theme after that right. Page 81 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 So, in the months ahea d o n e o r t wo of the participants in the f ac il it at i on f oru m we re mean t t o co me t o a C om m i t t e e M e e t i n g o f t h e f ac il it at i on f oru m , I t hi nk arou nd t he 3 0 t h o f J an u a r y 2 0 1 4 , w h e n i n i t i a l l y said they will come. Then told me they are withdrawing. So, I asked t h e m , w h y w ou l d y o u i n i t i a l l y s a y y o u a r e c o m i n g a n d n o w w i t h d r a w i n g ? T h e y s ai d th e y w e r e t o l d b y t h e S A B C th a t th is Min iste r is on h is wa y o ut . Do not bother with him and his policy as if it is mine once again. Also, there is nothing to hide because Mr M o t s o e n e n g i s the 10 c o l orful character you and the country know him as. He seeme d t o b e t el lin g pe o p l e v e r y s h o r t l y a f t e r Cabinet d e c i s i o n . Look he said to paraphrase, obviously I do not know the precise words and that it was c o n v e y e d t o m e b y o t h e r s a n d n o t o n e p e r s o n, mo re. Lo ok t he n h e said , d o n o t w o r r y a b o u t t h i s M i n i s t e r. I go t r id s a y s M r M o ts o e n e n g I a m t o l d , o f a n e n t i r e Board . This Min iste r I will ge t rid of him. Secondly, well look there were people who rang me including j o u r n a l i s t w h o w e re p i c k i n g u p th a t I a m o n m y w a y o u t . Now some of t hes e jou rna l i st s c ov er t he a rtifi c i a l l y i n t e l li g e n c e f o r I R w i t h i n t h e broadcasting sector and for some reason or the other they were very s y m p a t h e t i c t o t h e p o l i c y w e a d o p t e d . S o , t h e y m i g h t h a v e g i v e n th is an 20 i n f l e c t ion , it m ight ha ve b ee n ten den tiou s re adin g b u t t h ey kep t askin g m e , are you out? Th en I ap pro ac he d a very Se nio r Af rican Busin ess p e r s o n a n d s a i d , l o o k , f i r s t l y I a m b e i n g a c c u s e d o f b e i n g c o r r u p t – wh i c h I w o u l d really like this Commissi o n t o c h a l l e n ge m e o n . I f t h a t i s w h a t y o u w a n t t o d o, I wi ll ad dres s i t. I re a l l y b e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e m a i n t h i n g t h a t u p s e t s Page 82 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 me. And I want you to go out and see whether I am taking any money f r om e T V. Secondly, can you try take the Black Business C o u n c i l a n d AFCOC also came out in support of the policy. South African Communic a t i on s F o r u m r e p re s e n t i n g A s t r a t a o f A f r i c a n E n t r e p r e n e u r s c a m e o u t a n d s u p p o r t e d t h e p o l i c y. It is just NAMAC and one wing of NAMAC as you will see later in my affidavit that s a i d n o t o co n t r o l a n d t hey we re c l o sel y li nk ed to Mult iC hoice . And ho p ef u lly th e r e a r e e -m a i l s t hat wi l l c onfi rm wh at I am sayin g. 10 So, what I am saying in short is there was a buzz in the sector. And some of these journalists were saying but they ju s t a p p o i n t e d yo u . I never admitted to any journalist that I was on my way out. I was not 1 0 0 % s ure myself and it was only it was announced or at least I was – you know how it works. The President lets you know or at least the Secretary General at the AN C does after Pr e s i d e n t i s s w o r n i n , i t i s a b o u t l a t e t h a t e v e n i n g a n d t h e n t h r o ug h t he n i g h t a n d y ou m u s t h a v e r e a d t h e buzz and so I went to sleep. Because quite frankly if I am going to get appointed, my phone is on, somebody will ring me. And if I am not, so what? I am not en ti tl e d t o it. So, I t hin k t h at t here is a lo t m ore I c o u l d 20 s a y b u t a l o t i s i n m y a ff i d a v i t . I f y o u w a n t t o q u e s t i o n m e s p e c i f i c a l l y o n t hat mat t er, pl e as e d o. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . M R C A R R I M: But it was clear I was on my o u t . CHAIRPERS O N: M m . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . But there …(intervenes). Page 83 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R CARRI M : And I have no regrets Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: I t ell y ou no re g rets. I w ill d o exa ctly w hat I did be cau se I am answerable to collective. CHAIRPE RSON : Yes . M R CARRIM : And even if I knew. Even if the powers that be said to m e , Minister is you go ahead, we will fire you. I would have said, I can do nothing about it. It is your decision whoever the power may be. CHAIRPERSON : M m . 10 M R C A R R I M: M a y I al so sa y, I g ot th is b usin e ss m a n . H e w e n t a r o u n d , h e c a m e b a c k t o m e a s I r e c a l l i t a nd said , you kno w Yun us or he calle d m e M i n i s t e r o b v i o u s l y – M i n i s t e r, I r e m e m b e r w h e r e w e m e t a t a h o t e l I nt erc ont i nent al jus t opposite w here th e O. R. Ta m b o Ai r p o r t . He said to m e two things. One, in a cryptic way – h e i s a v e r y d e c e n t v e r y n i c e v e r y b a l a n c e d p e r s o n , b i g b u s i n e s sp e r s o n . H e s a i d t o m e , f i r s t l y, I a g r e e w i t h y o u r p o l i c y. H e u s e d a w o n d e r f u l t e r m a s I r e c a l l i t . H e s a i d , y o u c a n n o t h a v e a d u a l s y s t e m . Some would Se t Top Bo x or d eco d ers and o th e rs no . And I think he like many peo p l e th ou g ht , wh y shou ld th e ave rage perso n i n G u g u l e t u o r S o w e t o o r Vu l i n d l e l a n o t w a t c h s o c c e r m a t c h e s . 20 They h a v e t o p a y f o r i t . S o t h a t w a s w h a t r i l e d h i m a n d m a n y o t h e r pe o p l e . Secon d l y, h e s a i d t o m e , M i n i s t e r t h e v e r y p e o p l e t h a t y o u a r e f i g h ti ng f or a r e s t a b b i n g y o u i n t h e b a c k . I think he implied, he never used his words, SABC. Thirdly he said to me, Minister the consequences are going to be quite bad for you or something like that to which I l a u g h e d a n d s a i d , y o u m e a n I a m g o i n g t o b e f i r e d be c a us e I p i c k e d i t u p . Page 84 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 He did not admit to that but that I do know is that it was pleased to be well known that I am on my way out. Including in the City Press s o m e b o d y s e e I a m wond erfu l a t t h a t t i m e . M e d i a o ff i c e r I t h i n k d r a w t o my attention there was a speculation I am on my way out and two or three other people. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : Yes . CHAIRPERSON : Well two things. You said that one of the reasons that n o t m a d e y ou c o m e f o r w a r d e a r l i e r w a s t h a t y o u d i d n o t w a n t a n y b o d y t o t hi n k y ou were c om i ng for ward to the Commission to settle political 10 scores. M R C A R R I M: Yes . CHAIRPERSON : Now I think that it is a pity that that kind of argument s h o u l d b e g i v e n a n y c r e d e n c e b e ca u s e s o m e o f t he p e o p l e w h o w o u l d b e s a y i n g t h a t w o u l d b e p e o p l e w h o h a v e p r o b l e ms w ith t he e xist en ce o f th i s Commission. They would be using those arguments to discourage people who have something to contribute to this Commission from coming f or ward. And s o m e o f t h e m I h ave no do ub t wo u ld be pe ople w ho w ou l d l i k e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n n o t to b e t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t will end up breaching their territory. 20 So that is just what I want to say that there are people who would be discouraging – t h e y h a v e b e e n d i s c o u r a g i n g p e o p l e f r o m c o m i n g f or ward f or t hei r o wn reaso ns. A n d w e h a v e g o t t o t r y a n d j u s t d o t h e right thing. I appreciate the challenges that some of the people face for e x a m p l e t h o s e w h o m i g h t f e e l t h a t t h e y w o u l d b e – th e i r s a f e t y would be u n d e r th r e a t o r e v e n t h e i r l i v e s w o u l d b e u n d e r t h r e a t b e c a u s e o f w h a t Page 85 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 t hey k n o w. We c o n t i n u e t o j u s t a s k p e o p l e w h o c a n c o m e f o r w a r d t o come forward. The less this Commission knows the better for certain people. But also it means that if we d o n o t g e t t o k no w c e r t a i n t h i n g s which did happen and which are known to certai n p e o pl e , i t m e a n s w e may be hampered when we come to say what kind of recommendation should we put up to make sure that whatever may have happened, never h a p p e n s a g a i n . A n d o f c o u r s e , s o m e o f th e p eo ple w ho ma y ha ve be e n i n v o l v e d i n s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t ha t w e a r e l o o k i n g i n t o m i g h t n o t w a n t t h a t 10 door to be closed. Because they might want to come back and continue. But I appreciate that you are here now and that you are ab l e t o m a k e w h a t e ve r c o n t r i b u t i o n . I j u s t w a n t e d t o s a y t h a t w e j u s t h a v e t o b e alive to the fact that some of the people who spread that kind of argument are people who do not want the Commission to succeed. They do not want people to come and share with i n f o r m a t i o n , k n owledge that they h a v e a b o u t t h i n g s t h a t a r e r e a l l y i m p o r t a n t f o r th e C o m m i s s i o n . B u t t h a n k you. M R C A R R I M: Chairperson, can I just say one quick thing? CHAIRPERSON : Yes . 20 M R C A R R I M: Fi rs t ly, I a m a cute ly awa re o f the cha llen g e s t h a t t h e Commission faces . Part l y th ey w ere to b e exp ecte d. But I on ly w ant to s a y o n e t hin g t o add t o wh at yo u ha ve just said . It is not o n ly pe o ple wh o have something to fear from this Commission who feel that this is not the f or um to dea l wi th t he is s ues. T h e r e a r e p e o p l e wh o s h a r e y o u r v a l u e s , i f I m ay s ay so, wh o a ls o fee l wh ile t h ey a r e v ery good people in my Page 86 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 m o v e m e n t – o u r m o v e m e n t, th e y d o un fo rtu na te ly also fe e l w hat ev er issues you have, the more you go there the more you reproduce this. And i t d a m a g es t h e e c o n o m y, i t da m a g e s o u r i m a g e , i t d e m o r a l i z e s p e o p l e a n d t he Com mi s s ion h as g o n e s o fa r, t he y mad e th e p oin t. And so a re a ls o good people so to speak of nothing to fear from you Commission Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: Th ey a ls o f ee l t h e s a m e w a y. CHAIRP ERSON: Yes . No, no, I think ov er the time that the Commis s io n 10 h a s b ee n s i t t i n g I h a v e g a i n e d t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e r e m a y b e p e o p l e who are not coming forward to the Commission despite the fact they have g o t k n o w l e d g e o f c e r t a i n t h i n gs a n d m a y b e h a v e a c o n t r i b u t i o n t o m a k e t o t he Com mi s s i on . B ut decid e or pre fer n o t t o c o m e f o r w a r d n o t b e c a u s e t hey h av e been i nv ol v ed t h em selve s in anyt h in g o f a co rr up t n at u re b ut maybe because they take the view that some of these things that they k n ow about should be d e a l t w i t h i n e l s e w h e r e . Now as you say some of those people m a y b e g o o d p e o p l e w h o have got nothing to hide and so on. My response to that kind of argument is simply that it is a pity that they have that view because I believe that 20 this forum is a very important forum. Maybe it might not be the best f or um b ut a v e ry i m p o rtant forum that has the o p p o r tu n i ty o f c o m i n g u p with measures that are aimed at ensuring that we fix a lot of things that it i s l o o k i n g a t . A n d w e w o u l d l i k e t o h a v e h a d e v e r y b o d y t h at sha re s t h e v a l u e s t h a t w e s h a r e , c o m e o nb o a r d a n d s a y, t h e c o u n t r y first . Le t u s p u t t he c ou nt ry fi rs t. B e c aus e in this fo ru m no b ody is p reve nt ed fr om com in g Page 87 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 but maybe another forum that some of them may be looking at it is not e v e ry b o d y w h o c a n g o m ay b e i t i s c e r t a i n g r o u p s a n d s o . But this one is open, it i s f o r a ll S o u t h A f r i c a n s t o c o m e f o r w a r d and make a contribution to say whatever it is that we may have gone t hr ough i n ou r c ou nt ry, wh at d o w e d o, w ha t co nt rib ut io ns d o we m ak e t hat m ig ht fi n d t heir way to th e re co mmen dat ions o f th e C ommission t o t he P resi d e n t t o s a y t o a v o i d t h i s i n t h e f u t u r e , m e a s u r e s A , B , C , D should be put in place. But I think the point you make is an important o n e t h a t n o t e v e r y b o d y w h o i s s t a y i n g a w ay i s s t a y i n g a w a y be c a u s e t h e y 10 h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d i n w r o n g t h i n g s . O k a y, t h a n k yo u . ADV THA ND I N ORM AN S C: Th an k you C ha ir. Le t u s ju st finish t his par t t hat y ou s ta rted o n Mr C arrim abo ut t he – a b o u t y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a n d y o u n o t b e i n g a p p o i n t e d t o t h e po s i t i o n . Could you just tell briefly the p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o l l o w e d w h e n y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d th at yo u w ere n o t g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n t e d . Yo u s a i d y o u h e a r d rumors th a t yo u a re n o t g oing t o c om e. Di d yo u a t any po int sa y, loo k let me just f in d o ut f ro m t h e Pre s i d e n t b e c a u s e i t is t h e o n l y p e r s o n t h a t a p p o i n t e d m e ? M R C A R R I M: I ye s, no …(i n t e r v e n e s ) . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC : 20 Did you take the trouble of saying, look t hes e rum o rs, what do you think am I fit to continue M R C A R R I M: No, that is not me Chairperson. Chairperson can I j u s t s a y I a m no he ro. I am j u s t an o rdina ry a ct ivist. CHAIRPER SON : Ye s . M R C A R R I M: I guard be c a use o f a cciden ts o f h isto ry. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . Page 88 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R C A R R I M: I t c oul d have b ee n an ybo dy e lse. CHAIRPERSON: Yes . M R C A R R I M: Deployed in var i o u s r o l e s , o k a y. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: So, I would not do that. It is d e m e a n i ng t o m e . CHAIRPERSON : J a . M R C A R R I M: I am no t e n title d to a ny po sitio n. I neve r a ske d t h e President ever. Yes, I know people do go to him to whinge whatever or to f eel bad, t he y worke d a n d t h e y d o n o t k n o w w h y t h e y w e r e r e m o v e d . Yo u 10 n e v e r know. Th e wa y i t w o r k s , I d o n o t w a n t t o b e l a b o r th is mee t in g. CHAIRPERSON : Yes . M R C A R R I M: But I think you have some sense. You do not know whether you are being appointed or not. T h e rumor s t a r t f l y i n g a r o u n d . In my c a s e i t i s s o a b s u r d , I h a v e referred to i t else wh ere in t he affida vit. I m e a n a p e r s o n – we l l l e t u s l e a v e t h a t w e c o m e t o t h a t . T h e r e i s a – I t hi n k you w ill c o me t o it. There is the Clar issa M ack e xch an g e, M u l t i C h o i c e ’s R e g ul a t o r y A ff a i r s p e r s o n t w o m o n t h s b e f o r e , I d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t a ffi d a v i t , t w o m o n t h s b e f o r e t h e P r e s i d e n t a n n o u n c e s a t Cabinet s h e k n o w s . N o t j u s t t h a t I a m o u t b u t M s M u t h a m b i i s g o i n g t o 20 replace me. How does she know two months a h e a d , M u l t i C h o i c e do e s ? Tw o ? CHAIRPERSON : Yes . MR CARRIM: Mr Koos Bekker no less in March 2014 issues a memorandum where he hints that you know he says I am in the power o f e T V w h i c h i s v e r y o ff e n s i v e a n d y o u c a n q u e s t i o n m e o n t h a t . B u t – Page 89 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 and he says I am temperamentally unsuited. That is his absolute right Chairperson it is his right. He can say I am stupid. He can say I am n o t c u t o u t f o r t h i s j o b . I a m t o o l e f t w i n g o r w h a t e v e r. B u t t h e n y o u know he sort of says he is on his way out but you never know but we will come to that. CHAIRPERSON: Ha. MR CARRIM: But there are some bizarre things like two weeks before the appointment there is a party that Mr Motsoeneng, Mr Calvo Movella and they have in Sandton to celebrate. 10 But Carrim is out. Jackson Mthembu is not replacing him and frankly Muthambi is going to be M i n i s t e r. H o w w o u l d t h e y k n o w ? I t w a s c i r c u l a t i n g C h a i r p e r s o n . S o I was cool with it. I would like to have finished the work because I had a wonderful team. It was a disappointment to them. But no I could n e v e r. A n d s e c o n d l y y o u a r e n o t e n t i t l e d t o i t C h a i r p e r s o n . W h a t I d o say since 2000 – 1999 when I first found out how it works I think there is no harm in a President once you appoint the Cabinet, you know you are not being appointed because you do not get the call. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: Secondly I think it is reasonable for a President to call 20 those people he has not appointed – it is always a he in this case that is why he. I said to them, thanks for your work. He does not have to e x p l a i n w h y, h e i s n o t o b l i g e d t o b u t s a y l o o k y o u k n o w I w i s h y o u w e l l . CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: Yo u k n o w o r i f y o u h a v e n o t p e r f o r m e d c a l l y o u i n y o u m u s t l e a r n a n d g r o w. A n d s a y I t o o k y o u o u t f o r t h e f o l l o w i n g r e a s o n s . Page 90 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Not he is obliged. In this country it does not happen. I imagine it does not happen in other countries too but for us we are not a normal capitalist society if I may use that word. We are if you like a social d e m o c r a c y. T h e A N C c l a i m s w e a r e a N a t i o n a l D e m o c r a t i c M o v e m e n t . We claim to be more human than humane than other parties. So I would imagine it is fine but as far as I am concerned, no I will never do t h a t a n d I a m c o o l . I t i s t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s r i g h t . I t i s t h e o ff i c e b e a r e r s o f the ANC's right because he confers with them. No I am not entitled to anything. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u d e a l w i t h t h o s e a s p e c t s . M R C A R R I M : L a t e r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: On paragraph 155 but you have touched o n t h e m n o w. W e w i l l n o t r e p e a t t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s q u i t e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . B u t t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h s 11 5 f r o m 1 0 5 actually that is where we are dealing with the MultiChoice Agreement. MR CARRIM: That is right. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But you have made reference to a statement that Mr Obbit Maguvhe had made. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 11 6 . T h i s i s w h e r e y o u a r e dealing with how much they – SABC liked MultiChoice and you quoted w h a t h e s a i d a t a c e r t a i n g a t h e r i n g a t p a r a g r a p h 11 6 t h e r e . Page 91 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R C A R R I M : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: But what I want to alert the Chair to is that attached to the bundle Chair there is – from pages 207 onwards there i s a n a ff i d a v i t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: 2? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 207. CHAIRPERSON: 207. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 0 7 Ye s C h a i r. T h e r e i s a n a ff i d a v i t o f M r Maguvhe I think it is Professor Maguvhe where he responds to what you 10 state in that paragraph. CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Carrim must – we must know what he states before we go to …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Professor Maguvhe. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . B u t – a t p a r a g r a p h 11 6 w h a t d o y o u say there about Mr Maguvhe Mr Carrim? MR CARRIM: Do you want me to read that? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : O k a y. S o i t r e a d s : 20 Chairperson in an article dated 29 May 2015 Ammu Bongani stated that at the launch of the SABC in court channel the chairperson of the SABC Board Mr Obbit Maguvhe I think he is Professor sorry proposed a marriage between the Public Broadcaster and MultiChoice. A copy of the article is that hereto is Annexure 5. The Chairperson is quoted as saying – I am referring to Mr Maguvhe now – Professor Maguvhe these are his words I quote. Page 92 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 “Actually for me I would not have preferred it to just be a partnership. Actually it should be a marriage. Yo u c a n b e o u r b r i d e a n d w e w i l l b e t h e b r i d e g r o o m . We love so much MultiChoice we want to enter into a marriage.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d h i s r e s p o n s e . . . … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: His response appears at page 207. If I may Chair just to indicate that the investigators had made available 10 recordings of that meeting to a full recording was given to Professor Maguvhe. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So it does not seem to be really an issue but he has asked that this be placed before you so that it is read whatever he said there is viewed in context. That he says: since learnt” P a r a g r a p h 11 a t p a g e 2 0 9 . “With the assistance of the investigators of the Commission that the Ammu Bongani article quoted 20 from a speech which I gave at the launch of the Encore Channel the full recording of my speech is available from this link as provided to me by the investigators of the Commission. Regarding marriage between the SABC and MultiChoice per p a r a g r a p h 11 6 o f t h e a ff i d a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y M r Page 93 of 169 “I have 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Yu n u s C a r r i m I d o n o t t h i n k i t i s a n i n s t i t u t i o n t o b r e a k t h e l a w s o f o u r c o u n t r y. I could have used it as a metaphor to mean that the partnership grows from strength to strength. There is nothing untoward from my side which I used that phrase for if it is found in the records.” Yo u h a v e a l s o g i v e n a – t h a t – a m I c o r r e c t ? Yo u w e r e t o l d about that response? MR CARRIM: I was told about it. Ja I received obviously Chairperson 10 this. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: File only when I sat here. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: But as I explained to the Commission prior to this I was merely quoting an article in the newspaper C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a . M R C A R R I M : A n d s e c o n d l y I w a s m e r e l y t r y i n g t o c o n v e y t h a t i n e ff e c t the MultiChoice SABC agreement was almost if you like a merger and for what it is worth as Ms Norman will show later the Competition 20 Commission found it to be a notifiable merger and explains that by d r o p p i n g e n c r y p t i o n m a n y o f t h e b e s t o f M u l t i C h o i c e i n e ff e c t t h e S A B C and MultiChoice had a huge negative impact on the market and what I imagined they were saying if you look at the text is that it inhibited new entrants. But I should explain Chairperson if you look from paragraph 105 onwards I deal with the fact that at the time that I became the Page 94 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M i n i s t e r t h e r e w a s a n i n t e r i m B o a r d . A n d t h i s Z a n d i l e E l l e n Ts h a b a l a l a was the Chairperson of that Board. And on the 26th of July she wrote me a letter signed by her which is attached as an annexure to say that the SABC supports STB Control. And on the 12th of August she wrote me a letter again completely rescinding the earlier letter and she says we are now not supporting Control. In the earlier letter of the 26th of July she attaches a memorandum. If I recall correctly the memorandum has the signatures of Ms Mokhobo, Mr Sipho Masinga the Head of Te c h n o l o g y a n d i n d e e d s u r p r i s i n g l y M r M o t s o e n e n g . T h e m e m o r a n d u m 10 is making a case for STB Control. Then we have a further letter on the 12 August where she says we are not in support of Control and she attaches a memorandum to explain it. This memorandum is not signed by Lulama Makhobo. It is not signed by Sipho Masinga who is in c h a r g e o f t e c h n o l o g y, h e i s t h e G E o f Te c h n o l o g y a n d i t h a s a s i g n a t u r e i f I r e c a l l o f M r M o t s o e n e n g a n d M r T i a a n O l i v i e r. N o w I a l s o s u b m i t i n m y a ff i d a v i t C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t w h e n M s Z a n d i l e Ts h a b a l a l a , M s M a k h o b o a n d M r M o t s o e n e n g a p p e a r e d a t t h e R o u n d Ta b l e F a c i l i t a t i o n P r o c e s s they – the first meeting said they do not have a position STB Control which was puzzling because the position was there since 2008. 20 And they would come back with their position which they did. The position they came with I think it was presented mainly by Mr Olivier at the second meeting by the SABC of the Facilitation Process. I was there a s a n o b s e r v e r. I d i d n o t p a r t i c i p a t e a p a r t f r o m p r e l i m i n a r y r e m a r k s a t the first Facilitation and I did not attend all the meetings but I was there where they came and presented an argument that they oppose Page 95 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 STB Control. Ms Lulama then sent an e-mail which I have included to explain that that was not the position of the SABC. I also subsequently received from the Deputy Chairperson of the four person interim Board of the SABC from Ms Noluthando Gosa an e-mail saying Minister we w o u l d l i k e t o m e e t w i t h y o u . T h e p o s i t i o n p r e s e n t e d b y M s Ts h a b a l a l a and Mr Motsoeneng have not been approved by the interim Board. They are representing their own personal interests and she sent me an exchange of e-mails between herself and the Chairperson of the Board, M s Ts h a b a l a l a a n d s h e a t t a c h e s t h e f i r s t e - m a i l t o m e w i t h h e r n a m e . 10 Mr Ronnie Lubisi who is the other interim Board Member and the fourth B o a r d M e m b e r M r Vu s i M a v u s o w h e r e t h e y s a y i n g t h e y d i s s o c i a t e themselves from the representations made on STB Control by Ms Z a n d i l e Ts h a b a l a l a a n d M r M o t s o e n e n g . T h e r e a r e a l s o e - m a i l s o f t h e same nature, they are actually extracts from the e-mails and the annexures Chairperson by Lulama Makhobo setting out a long period from 2008 right up until well August 2012 where the SABC is committed t o s e t t h e S e t To p b o x c o n t r o l i n M a r c h 2 0 1 3 i f I r e c a l l t h e y h a v e a n agreement that they would write to the Minister to do that and so on and so on. 20 So from what I can tell Chairperson there was never a Board decision to support STB Control. Gosa. According to Ms Noluthando According to what I gather Mr Krishi Naidoo says until much later and certainly what Ms Makhobo says but you can speak to her yourself. I h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h e a ff i d a v i t s a n d I m e a n a n d t h e minutes, the voluminous minutes sent by Ms Theresa Geldenhuys, and I cannot for the life of me find any Board decision. Page 96 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: What I do have is on the 2nd of July it is Minutes of a sub-committee where a decision was taken to support STB Control subject to certain conditions which conditions were never met. In fact w i t h i n 2 4 h o u r s o n t h e 3 r d o f J u l y i t w a s s i g n e d o ff . Crucially C h a i r p e r s o n i t w a s n o t s i g n e d o ff b y t h e l e g a l l y m a n d a t e d p e r s o n t o d o that Ms Makhobo. She was not there. From what I can gather and you can ask her yourself she was opposed to the clause 9 I think it is of the contract which dealt with the News24, 24 hour channel and the 10 entertainment channel on condition MultiChoice said you do not have encryption. That is pre-empting government policy and changing the S A B C p o l i c y. I a m p r e p a r e d i f i t i s n e c e s s a r y a t a l l t o g o t h r o u g h a l l o f the minutes well it will not take long about 20 minutes I can go through each one and show you. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : H o w t h e d e c i s i o n i s a b s u r d a c t u a l l y. I t i s u l t r a v i r e s t o u s e a l a w y e r ’s t e r m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o B o a r d d e c i s i o n u n t i l m u c h , m u c h l a t e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: If you need that I can do it. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ja, no can I just take you to the minutes of the 6 June which you have attached. This is before your time. M R C A R R I M : Ye s Page 97 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I d i d n o t w a n t t o j u s t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . M R C A R R I M : Ye s i t w o u l d b e a t t a c h e d t o f i r s t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is attached it appeared from page – sorry – Annexure 3 page 90. 90 same bundle. MR CARRIM: Oh you talking about mine? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 9 0 . Ye s . M R C A R R I M : Ye s p a g e 9 0 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e g o t – y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d t o y o u r …(intervenes). 10 MR CARRIM: Oh yes we are yes I have got it. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is correct you have attached the minute. But what I would like to draw your attention to is at page 98. This was a meeting with there is various persons MultiChoice was represented and SABC was represented where – but I would like to d r a w y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o w h a t M s Ts h a b a l a l a s a y s a t p a g e 9 8 . M R C A R R I M : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 1 0 , 11 . CHAIRPERSON: It does not have line numbers but you might be able to guide us as to …(intervenes). 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 15 maybe. CHAIRPERSON: Whether it is somewhere in the middle of the page. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Maybe 15 lines. Which – around the m i d d l e 1 5 l i n e s o n – f r o m t h e t o p C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: The matter is going to be escalated? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That is correct yes. Page 98 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M s Ts h a b a l a l a s a y s t h e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: It is the same. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Have you found it? Same bundle. CHAIRPERSON: The same file that you have been having all along. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s I u n d e r s t a n d C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d p a g e 9 8 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Are you on page 90? 90 on top yes. M R C A R R I M : 9 0 o k a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: Chairperson can I understand Commission and the norm and the processes. the rules of the A lot of my notes are actually in my original text. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay that is …(intervenes). MR CARRIM: So I would plead with you to be slightly forbearing if that is the word, just bear with me. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o . MR CARRIM: Because I need to look at my notes but I have got you. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay no you need to …(intervenes). 20 MR CARRIM: Page 90 – I am on page 90. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Are you on page 90? M R C A R R I M : Ye s i n d e e d . M R C A R R I M : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: No if there is something in your notes that will refresh y o u r m e m o r y. Page 99 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R C A R R I M : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. MR CARRIM: Good, okay thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M s Ts h a b a l a l a s a y s there that the matter is going to be escalated. This is the matter of the agreement – is going to be escalated to the Board Meeting which is taking place on the 12th which is next week. M R C A R R I M : Ye s . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And if one has a look at the minutes of the 12th that I did not want to canvas these areas with you. MR CARRIM: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Because these are areas that Ms Makhobo talks to. MR CARRIM: Will deal with ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And I think she is the appropriate person to actually deal with those. M R C A R R I M : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 So – but I just – because you have attached the minute. M R C A R R I M : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And also just to support the point that you make. M R C A R R I M : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: That at least the meeting was going to be Page 100 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 on the 12th of June and by the 6th of June there was no endorsement of that contract and then the 12th of June one does not find from the minute of that the approval that you are eluding to. M R C A R R I M : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s b u t h a v i n g s a i d t h a t i n y o u r o w n analysis you have already indicated that you felt that as you do in p a r a g r a p h 11 5 t h a t t h e s a l e o r t h e a c c e s s t h a t M u l t i C h o i c e h a d t o t h e archives of the SABC did not benefit the SABC. Could you just talk to that aspect? 10 M R C A R R I M : Ye s f i r s t l y a s I r e c a l l w h a t I h a v e s a i d a n d h a v i n g l o o k e d at the minutes Chairperson and having seen media statements. There is a media statement issued by the subsequent SABC Board which says that they want to charge Mr Motsoeneng for criminality on two grounds as I recall it. Chairperson I am choosing my words carefully as I recall it because if I were to literally read the text out it is going to take us days. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR CARRIM: So …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, no that is fine. 20 MR CARRIM: My words are – exact words are in the text. CHAIRPERSON: Ja paraphrase it. MR CARRIM: And presumably you will give the full text to the people e ff e c t i v e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR CARRIM: So my words are paraphrasing. Page 101 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. MR CARRIM: So as I recall it to save time the SABC Board I think in 2015 or 2016 after Mr Motsoeneng had left presumably 2016 said two grounds. O n e i s t h e R 11 . 4 m i l l i o n w h i c h h e g o t a s t h e f i r s t o f t h r e e tranches I think he was entitled to, he claimed for securing the SABC MultiChoice deal of R33 million. He said he was entitled to. So they w a n t e d t h a t R 11 . 3 m i l l i o n b a c k a n d a s t h e S I U i n v e s t i g a t i o n a n d I t h i n k that matter is being handled by the court. But the second grounds on which the SACP spokesperson said they were thinking of taking 10 criminal action against him was that he agreed to allow MultiChoice exclusive access to the archives without any authorisation of the Board. So we who were there then we did not understand what the implications were. But when it grew on us the gravity of what had happened the D e p a r t m e n t O ff i c i a l s w e r e m a n d a t e d b y m e t o l o o k i n t o t h i s . But you must remember Chairperson our focus at the time was on the ICT G r e e n P a p e r. The related issues of Digital Migration and Broadband, South Africa Connect. Between the 10th of July and the 4th of December we took three major policy decisions to Cabinet and all were approved by a fully-fledged Cabinet no division on it either in the 20 Cabinet committee or in the full Cabinet right? So it was only once we began to understand the power of MultiChoice on SABC at the time sadly that we realised we have to look more carefully at the MultiChoice SABC agreement. And that is when we – what emerged was the fact that not just an agreement to forego encryption against government policy and SABC policy and without Board approval but Page 102 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 also a bit stunning that SABC will allow MultiChoice exclusive access to its archives. Now we asked for some opinions and you know C h a i r p e r s o n y o u k n o w m o r e t h a n m e e a c h l a w y e r h a s t h e i r o w n v i e w. So there was a view that it is not a legal ownership by MultiChoice of the archives to which my immediate reply was that is neither here nor there. It is not a matter of whether legally they had handed over ownership which they cannot do anyway but the access is wrong. It must go through the Board and if it is talking about archive access some commentators, some experts drew it in the public drew it to the 10 public attention or me privately that that is a historical site. It is a c u l t u r e , t h e v a l u e , t h e t r e a s u r e r o f t h e c o u n t r y. S A B C h a s a r c h i v e s t h a t n o b o d y e l s e h a s . T h a t i s a p u b l i c b r o a d c a s t e r. Yo u c a n n o t f o r e g o i t t o e T V o r a n y b o d y. S e c o n d l y I h a v e s p o k e n t o M r N i d d r e y a n d h e c a n n o t recall exactly who or if it was he who raised this with me. But I recall Mr Chairperson that some person suggested – it was not just that the archives were foregone even if not legally to the exclusive access by MultiChoice it is also that the worth of those s u b s t a n t i a l l y r e d u c e d b y w h a t M u l t i C h o i c e o ff e r e d . archives were One suggestion was at least R1 billion was the value of it and that may or may not be 20 true I am no expert. So when I wrote to Mr Vincent Smit who was Chairperson of the ad hoc Parliamentary Committee looking into the SABC I set out that our problem with the MultiChoice agreement was not just encryption. Was not just that a big multi-national is deciding f o r g o v e r n m e n t , g o v e r n m e n t ’s p o l i c y b y f o r c i n g t h e S A B C t o c h a n g e i t s policy and try to influence us as the government. Chairperson one of Page 103 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 the reasons I agreed to come here and I would have come anyway in response to your earlier points is I think this is a clear and explicit example it seems to me. I do not know whether the Commission – of what we call regulatory or policy capture. Now what I have seen Chairperson I only watch the news I do not follow the Commission because there is not time. As much as I respect your work but my s e n s e i s B o s a s a y o u k n o w, S A P, M c K i n s e y a n d s o o n w h o e v e r a p p e a r s before you their extracting from the state is related to tenders? They either shape if you like the tender specifications subtly and sometimes 10 there are many times they pay for it or they ensure that they get the tender through various possibly irregular means. But here is an example of actually the first example perhaps before the Commission of what one would call regulatory or policy capture. week gave me the text. Now Mr Harris last Either he got it from Advocate Norman of D o c t o r s K a u f m a n ’s p r e s e n t a t i o n s t o y o u r C o m m i s s i o n . And I read through it very fast and I see there I can quote it but it is various parts w h e r e h e s a y s t h a t h e a n d h i s c o l l e a g u e , a n o t h e r p r o f e s s o r, b u i l t o n a Nobel Prize awardee economist view that there is such a thing as state capture. They – it is not capture of institutions it is also regulatory or 20 policy capture. Now this for me at least for me, speaking for myself and many who worked with me is a very clear example of regulatory or policy capture. Whereby irregular means you shape a government policy and the technique or the – because Chairperson there is absolutely no reason to include in a commercial transaction between t h e S A B C a n d D S T V a c l a u s e t h a t d e a l s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t p o l i c y. Yo u Page 104 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 cannot encrypt your broadcast. And you will see elsewhere in the a ff i d a v i t S i r t h a t t h e r e i s a s e c t i o n o n r e - t r a n s m i s s i o n a n d y o u w i l l s e e that in terms of the ICASA rules Chair being reviewed the pay TV service is obliged to broadcast the Free to Air broadcasters’ programs. S o t h a t i s S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 a n d e T V. N o w i n t e r e s t i n g l y a t t h e t i m e t h a t I was there as a Minister the experts said to me that 40% possibly or thereabouts of the viewing that took place on DSTV was of the programs of SABC and MultiChoice. Presumably SABC mainly because 10 it has indigenous language programs. And the majority of us in this country speak indigenous languages. Ye t t h e S A B C g e t s n o t h i n g i n terms of re-transmission fees. So Mr Niddrey and Mr Kruger raised with me then that I should approach ICASA about this matter and ask them to review it. Subsequently it seems somebody did. I was not reappointed so I could not follow up on that but what I would like to stress is that the encryption aspect had absolutely nothing to do with the commercial agreement. There is no such thing with ANN7. There is no such thing with EN – what ENCA. And when you ask representatives o f M u l t i C h o i c e w h y i s i t t h e r e t h e y d o n o t g i v e y o u ’ r e a n a n s w e r. B u t i f you look at the minutes Chairperson of the 6th of June since we are 20 there I can show you at least four or five examples of how Mr Imtiaz P a t e l a c t u a l l y s a y s t h a t t h i s i s a d e a l b r e a k e r. W e d o n o t n o r m a l l y – I d o n o t k n o w h i s e x a c t w o r d s a n d t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t i g a t o r s a n d research team, he says things like; you know what we do not normally pay for news and we are going to give you R100 million and R553 over three – five years. How do I go to my Board he says the MultiChoice Page 105 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Board – how do I go to them and say it is worth our while if you give us something in return is more or less what is there – encryption it is a deal breaker etcetera. But we also point out to you and Advocate Norman that on page 6 of those minutes I am afraid …(intervenes). A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : I w o u l d – i t i s p a g e 6 w o u l d b e p r e s u m a b l y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 6 would be …(intervenes). MR CARRIM: Presumably 095. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 10 M R C A R R I M : Ye s b u t y o u r p a g e 6 I a m a f r a i d – o h i t i s p a i d 8 s o r r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 8 of the minutes. MR CARRIM: Of the minutes of the 6th of June. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: That is page 97 of the bundle. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 97. MR CARRIM: Page 97. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: I am afraid yours does not correspond to mine. Chairperson instead of holding the committee back. 20 CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. M R C A R R I M : Yo u a r e r e c o r d i n g m e . CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: And if I am wrong. -CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R C A R R I M : Yo u w i l l … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . Page 106 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: We can always check ja. MR CARRIM: Correct that. So let me read to you very interesting how Mr Patel operates right? CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. M R C A R R I M : S o M r M a v u s o s a y s , t h a t i s Vu s i M a v u s o , w h o b y t h e w a y has told me not – I bumped into him he is in Parliament. Last Thursday I bumped into him. I said is the Commission calling you. He says no because I have been called by the SIU again. But he told me earlier he is very happy to come. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR CARRIM: He still holds the view they were right to say control is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: He still holds the view as far as I can tell – I have had three exchanges with him that they had no permission Mr Motsoeneng o r M s Ts h a b a l a l a t o a c t u a l l y c h a n g e t h e i r p o l i c y. S o M r M a v u s o s a y s I will read to you literally what is there. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : T h e p o i n t w a s i t s a y s t h a t t h e o ff e r p r e s u p p o s e s t h a t i s 20 t h e M u l t i C h o i c e o ff e r t h a t a l l S A B C c h a n n e l s o n D T T p l a t f o r m w o u l d b e made available to the public encrypted without a conditional access s y s t e m a n d t h e r e b y i n c i d e n t a l l y r e c e i v e d b y M u l t i C h o i c e ’s D D T H ...(indistinct). The reality for me I think has changed a broad spectrum because as it were now the Minister has pronounced that DTT is no longer in our scope. In other words it is not would it now ...(indistinct) Page 107 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 a s i t w e r e . D T m e a n i n g D i g i t a l Te r r e s t r i a l Te l e v i s i o n . C h a i r p e r s o n , M s Norman because she knows me has told me that I speak too fast and I have been told that since the age of 5 I think. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR CARRIM: So if I am going too fast presumably please slow me down. CHAIRPERSON: No, no I – no, no you are fine ja. MR CARRIM: It is all there in the text that is why I am reading it fast. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: So Chairperson he says she meaning the Minister will run with that in however way she prefers to do that therefore clause 9 says Mr Mavuso becomes superfluous because it is not something that we can be able to change or be able to say anything about. I suggest it be removed completely says Mr Mavuso. T h e n M s Ts h a b a l a l a s a y s , okay so members the proposal is to remove clause 9. This is Zandile Ts h a b a l a l a . We have actually in clandestine meetings – clandestine meetings Chairperson – make what you will of that – interrogated this whole document and we all disagree with clause 9. 20 emphasis all disagree. So Ms Geldenhuys says: clandestine meetings said Ms Geldenhuys. Chairperson my Do not say M s Ts h a b a l a l a s a y s o k a y outside meeting. Well because there was a Board Meeting then GCEO meaning Ms Makhobo presented this document for MultiChoice. We listened to it, went through the document and we had a problem with clause 9 she repeats. So I think there is a bone of contention. There Page 108 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 is what we are going to discuss with MultiChoice etcetera, etcetera. Ms M a k h o b o t h e n g o e s o n t o s a y, C h a i r p e r s o n – m e a n i n g t h e – Z a n d i l e Ts h a b a l a l a p e r h a p s c l a u s e 1 0 a l s o – t h a t i s t o d o t h e . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) r i g h t so I will drop that. Now elsewhere Ms Patel asks in this text in the – of the 6th of June meeting. He asks, is the meeting being recorded? Ms Makhobo says, yes. Then he says and you know Ms Norman will guide the Commission. He says, well then I have to be circumspect in what I s a y. Now if you are engaging at a public broadcaster if indeed you know you got nothing to hide why is Mr Patel preoccupied with well you 10 k n o w I c a n n o t r e a l l y s a y w h a t I w a n t t o s a y. H e i s d e a l i n g w i t h a p u b l i c broadcast here. These are not two private sector entities. That public broadcast is answerable not just to Parliament it is merely answerable to – through Parliament to the public. So Mr Patel may I suggest makes himself vulnerable and linked to what else I have said in his a ff i d a v i t a n d M r K o o s B e c k e r i s b e h i n d i t a s I r e p e a t e d l y s a y. Elsewhere are – points are that Mr Becker and Mr Nono Letele with due respect them may well have their strengths. with due respect but none in Mr Patel. I saw some in Mr Letele He did not seem to be in the one year I knew him for ten months say anything original. What he was 20 doing mainly was processing. Ve r y a g g r e s s i v e p r o c e s s o r. But Mr Becker on the other hand as I say was the key person using Mr Calvo Movello the current CEO, Mr Patel and others to do his bidding. But those are issues that if you care to I can address but I am happy to go through and show you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 109 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MR CARRIM: Throughout the minutes of the meeting the absurdity of the final decision it is fine. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o , n o , i t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I n – a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 1 . CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see we are at one? MR CARRIM: Page 131. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 O h y e s t h a n k y o u C h a i r. M a y b e t h e n a d j o u r n f o r t h e – t a k e t h e l o n g a d j o u r n m e n t C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I h a v e a f e e l i n g t h a t M r C a r r i m i s n o t f o l l o w i n g the route you may have planned. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And that he has been able to cover quite a lot. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Quite, quite a lot. CHAIRPERSON: In a particular sequence. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: So you would keep an eye so that …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: When we come back. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So that we do not repeat what he has covered? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No true Chair we doing that yes. Thank y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: We are going to take the lunch adjournment we will Page 110 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 resume at 14:00. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready Ms Norman? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Mr Carrim, I would like us to go back to the discussion we had before lunch relating to people that may not coming forward to assist this Commission, because they believe it is not the right forum for certain issues. I just want to make sure that I indicate what my thoughts are about that group of people. F i r s t l y, I t h i n k e v e r y b o d y i n S o u t h A f r i c a w h o h a s k n o w l e d g e of matters that fall within the terms of reference of the Commission should come forward to assist the Commission and to share that information. 20 So that the Commission can do its job which is for the c o u n t r y r e a l l y, b u t i f t h o s e p e o p l e h a p p e n t o a l s o i n c l u d e p e r s o n s w h o serve as Members of Parliament particularly – I will refer to the N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l y, b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a s p e c i f i c o r t h e r e a r e s p e c i f i c provisions in the Constitution that relate to the National Assembly that are, I think, relevant to this. I think one of them is Section 48 of the National Assembly Page 111 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 which you probably know well, because although you are in the N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l y n o w. Yo u s p e n t a l o t o f t i m e i n t h e N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l y. N o , n o . I t i s n o t S e c t i o n 4 8 . I t i s S e c t i o n 4 2 ( 3 ) . S e c t i o n 42(3) of the Constitution says about the National Assembly: “The National Assembly is elected to represent the people and to ensure Government by the people under the Constitution.” And then it says: “It does this by choosing the President by providing 10 a national forum for public consideration of issues, by passing legislation and by scrutinising and overseeing Executive action.” Which seems to suggest to me that if you are as Member of the National Assembly even though you may have been sent there by y o u r p a r t y. Once you are performing your functions as part of the National Assembly you have got to bear in mind that the National Assembly is elected to represent the people. Therefore the people of South Africa must come first and then i f y o u g o t o S e c t i o n 4 8 i t t a l k s a b o u t t h e o a t h o r a ff i r m a t i o n t h a t g e t s 20 taken by Members of the National Assembly and it says: “Before Members of the National Assembly begin to p e r f o r m t h e i r f u n c t i o n s i n t h e A s s e m b l y. T h e y m u s t s w e a r o r a ff i r m f a i t h f u l n e s s t o t h e R e p u b l i c a n d obedience to the Constitution in accordance with S c h e d u l e 2 a n d t h e o a t h o r a ff i r m a t i o n c o n t a i n e d i n Page 112 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Schedule 2 in respect of Members of the National A s s e m b l y i n c l u d e s w e a r i n g o r s o l e m n l y a ff i r m i n g t o “be faithful to the Republic of South Africa” and to obey respect and uphold the Constitution and all other law of the Republic and to solemnly promise to perform his or her functions as a Member of the N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l y t o t h e b e s t o f h i s o r h e r a b i l i t y. ” I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t t h e o a t h o r a ff i r m a t i o n t h a t M e m b e r s o f the National Assembly take requires them to place the interests of the 10 Republic above everything else and to the extent that the group of people that we are talking about may include people who are Members of Parliament particularly National Assembly who may have evidence, knowledge or information that would be important for this Commission t o c o n s i d e r. To t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y m i g h t n o t b e w a n t i n g t o c o m e t o t h i s Commission, because they think there is another forum that is better s u i t e d p a r t i c u l a r l y i f t h e y a r e t h i n k i n g a b o u t a p o l i t i c a l p a r t y. I t s e e m s to me that they may be acting inconsistently with their oath as Members o f N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l y a n d t h e – o r a ff i r m a t i o n – t h a t t h e y a r e n o t – t h e y 20 may not be putting in the interests of the Republic of the people first, because this Commission was specially set up. It is established in terms of the Constitution. Section 84 of the Constitution to look into matters of national interest that have arisen and it is going to make recommendations to the President. So I thought I must mention that so that no impression is created that one Page 113 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 condones those who are not under fear of being harmed in anyway physically or killed or anything and who might not really even be fearing any victimisation but simply who might think it is not the right forum that I think they may be acting inconsistently with the Constitution. I thought I would just mention that. Yo u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t wish to say anything. MR CARRIM: Chairperson, I will be very brief, but perhaps if I may if it is not indecorous. 10 Sometime when this Commission is over and you want to engage with me as one South African to another I am happy to talk with you …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: But what I want to suggest also is I am no better than anybody else. I do not want to come across as a holier than thou. In fact the very Constitutional Court that you serve so admirably on has pronounced on this matter balancing our relationship as elected public representatives by parties on a PR List System and the interest of the public out there. This is misunderstood. 20 T h e r e i s a n o n g o i n g o n / o ff o n / o ff debate on the relationship between public representatives in the ANC on a PR List System not a ward or constituency system and the need to represent public out there. My sense is Chairperson – unless I am wrong. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: This takes place now and then. Page 114 of 169 We are moving in the 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 direction that I think the Constitutional Court decision suggested, but Chairperson many of these things that are in constitutions and in legislation about the responsibilities of Members of Parliament to the public out there whether in a ward elected system or a PR System are there in laws and in constitutions even sometimes in the developed world too. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. M R C A R R I M : I t i s p r o b a b l y t r u e t o s a y t h a t m a n y M P ’s d o n o t a b i d e b y that. 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: So it is a – it is increasingly my sense is – without going into a long discussion – the international norm. We as Members of Parliament are increasingly seeing by the public out there whether in a developed or developing world as not responsible enough to people who elect us. People are increasingly sceptical of us and secondly there a r e s p e c i f i c c h a l l e n g e s w e h a v e a s t h e A N C i n a n e m e r g i n g d e m o c r a c y. Where we are committed to what we call a national democratic transformation. If one wants to use ordinary parlance you would social 20 democracy and forging our identity in a society with such acute income and material inequalities which are largely racialized. With an untransformed economy or very marginally t r a n s f o r m e d e c o n o m y. S o m e o f t h e s e b a l a n c e s b e t w e e n y o u r s e r v i c e t o your party and your service to the country are very complex to tread and may I say oh this is not just an ANC problem. The DA has a similar Page 115 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 problem, but I will leave it there and perhaps if you feel up to it sometime. I a m h a p p y t o b e a v a i l a b l e t o y o u t o o ff e r m y v i e w s a n d what I think. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , w e l l I w o u l d s a y t h a t i f y o u w i s h t o s h a r e with the Commission more on this – on these challenges that you are talking about. We would welcome that. I say that because one of the t h i n g s t h a t I h a v e s a i d p u b l i c a l l y. T h e C o m m i s s i o n i s l o o k i n g a t i s t o what extent did Parliament exercise its oversight over the Executive p r o p e r l y. 10 Is it a situation where Parliament might not have exercised its oversight functions properly and that is why certain things may have happened or if it had exercised its oversight functions the way it should? Maybe certain things would have stopped before they became w o r s e . Yo u k n o w. W e h a v e g o t t o l o o k a t t h a t a n d p a r t o f l o o k i n g a t that is going to be when you look at Members of Parliament who are Members of the majority party in Parliament. To w h a t e x t e n t d o t h e y f e e l f r e e t o h o l d t h e E x e c u t i v e accountable the way it is expected of any Member of Parliament? Is there a rule to say because the Minister is from my party I must be 20 careful? I must not be too tough on him or her and maybe some of the – those might be some of the challenges that may have to be confronted to say is there a problem here or is there no problem. The holding Executive to account is done in the same way whether a Member of Parliament is a Member of the majority party or not or is the position that even Members of the Executive know that Page 116 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 well opposition parties will talk, but the majority will be with me. So t h e y w i l l n o t b o t h e r m e . Yo u k n o w. So those are some of the things we need to look at as the Commission because it may well be that if we have Parliament p e r f o r m i n g i t s o v e r s i g h t f u n c t i o n s e ff e c t i v e l y. In the future if similar things were to arise they would be stopped and the question might be what is it that is lacking that we should think of measures that should be put in place to make sure that the performance of oversight f u n c t i o n s w o u l d b e e ff e c t i v e . So ideas that you might have about these things would be 10 most welcome. So I would welcome that particularly because you have been in Parliament for a long time. Yo u p r o b a b l y h a v e a l o t o f experience even about how Parliament – how in the National Assembly oversight functions are performed and you might be able to enlighten me quite extensively which might be quite helpful when one comes to say is there something that needs to be done about the performance of oversight functions to make sure that one, the levels of corruption in the country in the S O E ’s and Departments to not continue to deteriorate. 20 To m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y c a n b e b r o u g h t d o w n b y t h e u s e o f proper oversight functions performance. M R C A R R I M : M a y I j u s t s u g g e s t v e r y q u i c k l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR CARRIM: F i r s t l y, I d o n o t r e a l l y h a v e t h e a u t h o r i t y – p o l i t i c a l authority to speak on behalf of the Parliament. Page 117 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , n o . MR CARRIM: So I will respectfully …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : D e c l i n e y o u r o ff e r … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : B u t I k n o w y o u w a n t M P ’s t o a p p e a r … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: Before the Parliament. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR CARRIM: It is appropriate for the two Chief Whips in particularly National Assembly Chief Whips …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : To r e s p o n d t o y o u r c o n c e r n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: Secondly you Chairperson and others here know far more than me. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: How powerful …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. 20 MR CARRIM: The role of Parliament is in terms of the Constitution …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: And a plethora of the post 1994 legislation. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. H’mm. MR CARRIM: We have no choice …(intervenes). Page 118 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: In terms of law …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: In terms of the Constitution …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. M R C A R R I M : To p l a y a n e ff e c t i v e o v e r s i g h t r o l e . CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: We ourselves as the ANC and here I say – speak on behalf of us – the majority of us have been saying it publically 10 particularly the previous Chief Whip, Mr Mothapo. He is on record – if I recall – and other Chief Whips, Mr Max Sisulu and so on. We have r e p e a t e d l y s a i d p l a y o u r r o l e m o r e e ff e c t i v e l y. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: At the time that Eskom appeared …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: Before a special inquiry of the Public Enterprises C o m m i t t e e . T h e r e w e r e a l o t o f s t a t e m e n t s m a d e b y A N C M P ’s t h a t i f we exercised our role …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. 20 MR CARRIM: A s e ff e c t i v e l y a s t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n a n d t h e l a w s r e q u i r e and more fundamentally …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: What our ANC policy set out about a national democratic Parliament …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. Page 119 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R C A R R I M : A p e o p l e ’s o r g a n . CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: If you look Chairperson you a Constitutional expert. We are politicians. T h e r e i s n o d i ff e r e n t b e t w e e n w h a t u n d e r l i e s y o u r values and what you have just said …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. M R C A R R I M : A n d w h a t a r e i n t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n a n d w h a t w e s a y. I f y o u look at the period 1994 to 2004 there are so many articles written Chairperson on Parliament as a tribune of the people. 10 CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: Some of it is jargon from the pre 1994 Parliament as an organ of popular power and it defers. Some committees – ANC led committees obviously have strong Chairpersons and Whips. The Whips are like the political heads of the study group. The Chair is the functional Chairperson of the Parliament as a whole. Who are more e x p e r i e n c e d ? T h e y e x e r c i s e a v e r y e ff e c t i v e o v e r s i g h t r o l e . CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: Others who are new feel intimidated, because often the Chairperson is an ordinary Member of the ANC and the Minister is the 20 National Executive Committee. So if you like in Parliament the ordinary member is the political boss …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. MR CARRIM: Because the Minister is answerable to him, but in the political party structures the Minister is the boss, because he is in the NEC …(intervenes). Page 120 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: He is part of the deduction. M R C A R R I M : B u t I k n o w C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u h a v e r a i s e d t h i s . Yo u h a v e reached out to me via your Commission representatives on the SAA matter and I have cooperated and so I think the Chief Whip will decide who she wants to bring to Parliament …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: But I cannot decide to speak on behalf of Parliament as you will appreciate. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR CARRIM: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. I was not inviting you to speak on behalf o f P a r l i a m e n t o r a n y b o d y. I was looking more at your own personal experiences having been a Member …(intervenes). MR CARRIM: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: Of Parliament over a long period. I will – the Commission will be communicating with - with parliamentary structures at that level, but personal experiences for – of people who say I have been there over this period. This is what I have observed. That kind of thing is what I was talking about but thank you very much. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r C a r r i m , before we adjourned for lunch the issue that you were dealing with was you had just read the one set of minutes dated 6 June 2013 and you a s k e d t h a t y o u w o u l d l i k e t o r e f e r t o o n e o r t w o o t h e r s . Yo u m a y t a k e i t t h a t a s y o u k n o w t h e C h a i r p e r s o n h a s r e a d y o u r e n t i r e a ff i d a v i t together with all the annexures. Page 121 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 So if you could just be very brief and make reference to the one that you would like to draw the attention of the Chair to. Thank …(intervenes). MR CARRIM: Chairperson …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. MR CARRIM: I am not going to read the minutes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR CARRIM: But lest it be seen that I am speaking in generality …(intervenes). 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: Like a typical politician. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R C A R R I M : W h e n M s G e l d e n h u y s g a v e t h e C o m m i s s i o n h e r a ff i d a v i t s h e a t t a c h e d t h e m i n u t e s a n d m y a ff i d a v i t w a s w r i t t e n b e f o r e t h a t . I h a d n o i d e a h o w o n t h e b a l l a s i t w e r e t h e a ff i d a v i t w a s a n d j u s t – I w i l l simply refer to the page numbers and summarise them, but the actual minutes will take too long to read. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: So if one looks at 95 in Theresa Geldenhuys’ CC32 file. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a i r. The exhibit – that is Exhibit CC43. M R C A R R I M : O h . I t i s C C 4 3 . S o r r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I do not think that has been handed up to you yet. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. That has not been handed up? Page 122 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o C h a i r. N o . N o t y e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: It is exhibit …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: That is in Exhibit CC43 …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CC40 – that is correct. CHAIRPERSON: And what page? 95? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 MR CARRIM: Well I have I am afraid CC32. It says SABC reference bundle …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR CARRIM: And that is on page 95, but what might help the committee …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: Since we are not going to read it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: It is just like as you …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: H’mm. 20 MR CARRIM: As well as without the heads of argument. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . J a . MR CARRIM: Just to – for future. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n s p e a k t o i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: So that …(intervenes). Page 123 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON: As long as we know where to find it. MR CARRIM: Ja. E x a c t l y. It does not seem as if I am speaking g e n e r a l i t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. MR CARRIM: So I will deal with the date. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : I t i s t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e – s o r r y, 2 n d o f J u l y 2 0 1 3 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: This is the Special Finance Investment Procurement and 10 Te c h n o l o g y C o m m i t t e e M e e t i n g . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Chair you will find that at page 38 of CC43. CHAIRPERSON: Well in the meantime I have been given Exhibit CC32 which …(intervenes). MR CARRIM: Oh Allah. In that case it is page 95. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 95 in red. MR CARRIM: Ja. 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR CARRIM: So Chairperson this is MultiChoice/SABC Agreement is signed. the day before the That happened on the 3rd of July by Mr Motsoeneng. Right. So on page 2 of the minutes of the 2nd of July it is clear that there is no approval for STB Control. Page 124 of 169 On 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 page 3 it is noticeable that Ms Lulama Mokhobo who is the GCEO is not there and it was agreed that the reference to clause 9 in the text of the discussion should be removed and it was decided that there were three conditions as I know it in these minutes that were set for Mr Motsoeneng to sign. The first was to seek senior legal opinion on whether the M u l t i C h o i c e / S A B C d e a l i s l e g a l l y t e n a b l e . T h a t w a s o n t h e 2 n d o f J u l y. That was the first condition if I recall it. The second condition as I recall it was that there should be Board – but there is no Board 10 approval. The second condition is that Mr Motsoeneng who is the Acting CEO can go ahead and sign the agreement. However as Mr Harris pointed out to me – and I think he is right. There is no possibility in corporate law for a sub-committee of a Board to change the delegations from a GCEO to an Acting – moreover Acting COO. That he says, and it seems reasonable to me, can only be done by a Board. So the second problem with the Committee deciding is that it cannot just willy-nilly change delegations. T h e r e i s n o p o w e r. It can only have gone to a Committee. The third is that Mr Mavuso is constantly arguing against having clause 20 9. CHAIRPERSON: And he is the Chairperson? MR CARRIM: He is the Chair of that Committee. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R C A R R I M : M s Z a n d i l e Ts h a b a l a l a c a m e i n l a t e t o t h a t m e e t i n g – a s I understand it. Right, but Mr Mavuso makes it very clear at the end that Page 125 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 any agreement with MultiChoice must be, to use his words, on SABC terms. Now it is very clear Chairperson that no legal opinion was secured between this meeting on the morning of the 2nd of July and the s i g n i n g o f t h e a g r e e m e n t o n t h e 3 r d o f J u l y. I n d e e d C h a i r p e r s o n i f y o u g o t o t h e 3 0 t h o f J u l y. T h e r e i s i n f a c t a l e g a l o p i n i o n o ff e r e d . S o t h e l e g a l o p i n i o n i s o ff e r e d , i f m y arithmetic serves me. 28 days after and you will see later Chairperson that Mr Krish Naidoo, a Human Rights lawyer who has got a struggle, he was serving on the Board. 10 H e d i d a n d h e h a s g i v e n t h e C o m m i s s i o n I t h i n k a n a ff i d a v i t in that regard – an assessment of the legality of and concludes this ultra vires and null and void, but subsequent to that I gathered there w a s a f u r t h e r l e g a l o p i n i o n s e c u r e d b y M s Z a n d i l e Ts h a b a l a l a w h i c h said it was legally tenable and I think it is then that an 8/6 majority decided to approve the deal as it were. The agreement with SAA – SABC/MultiChoice Agreement s o m e 1 4 m o n t h s l a t e r. N o w i f y o u g o C h a i r p e r s o n t o t h e t r a n s c r i p t s o f the Board Meeting. It is TGH, as I have it. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 MR CARRIM: J u l y, the 22nd Chairperson. On page 2. M r S i p h o M a s i n g a , t h e H e a d o f Te c h n o l o g y a t t h e t i m e , w h o w a s removed by all accounts, because he insisted on STB Control and Mr Motsoeneng it is alleged removed him because of that and that ...(indistinct) partly played a role also in the removal of Ms Mokhobo, b u t s h e w i l l s p e a k f o r h e r s e l f , b u t a n y w a y t h e 2 2 n d o f J u l y. P a g e 2 . Page 126 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M r S i p h o M a s i n g a s a y s v e r y r e v e a l i n g l y. I t i s t h e S A B C t h a t p u t C o n t r o l i n t h e p o l i c y. A Government policy of 2008 passed by Cabinet. He says: “SABC put Control in the policy to defend its i n t e r e s t . S e t To p b o x i s a p r i n c i p l e . ” To q u o t e h i s w o r d s . S o y o u h a v e g o t M s M o k h o b o s a y i n g t h a t there is an argument by MultiChoice in particularly and those who s y m p a t h i s e w i t h i t . T h a t w e d o n o t n e e d S e t To p B o x e s , b e c a u s e y o u see the future you are going to get what we call Integrated Digital 10 Te l e v i s i o n . W h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n y o u a n d I h a v e s u c h a T V. Yo u m a y n o t know it. Where you can actually do a whole lot of things that a computer can do, but the Department of Communications and the M i n i s t r y w a s c l e a r t h a t m o s t p e o p l e i n t h i s c o u n t r y c a n b a r e l y a ff o r d a T V. S t i l l l e s s a r e t h e y g o i n g t o h a v e t h e c a p a c i t y t o b u y a n I n t e g r a t e d D i g i t a l T V. I f y o u s p e a k t o M r K r u g e r h e w i l l t e l l y o u t h a t e v e n w i t h t h e I D T V, i f I u n d e r s t a n d h i m c o r r e c t l y. Yo u w i l l s t i l l n e e d a S e t To p B o x c h o i c e – a S e t To p B o x Control System and in fact elsewhere in the memorandum I asked him 20 in preparation for this meeting. Roy are they correct that you do not n e e d S e t To p B o x e s a n d h e h a s g i v e n h i s e x p l a n a t i o n . H e s a i d S e t To p Boxes are even more important now than they were then and he e x p l a i n s w h y. He says encryption is involved in a whole lot of services. WhatsApp, telegram signal and so on and so on. He himself is involved Page 127 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 – presiding in Mozambique where his company has inserted now in a poor country like Mozambique …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: And he says they have done digital migration …(intervenes). M R C A R R I M : E x a c t l y. CHAIRPERSON: Much quicker there? M R C A R R I M : Ye s . Ye s . Q u i t e – a n d i t h a s g o t c o n t r o l . S o i n s h o r t h e s a y s i n t h e e n d o f h i s a ff i d a v i t – h i s c o m m e n t . So much for M u l t i C h o i c e ’s v i e w t h a t S e t To p B o x C o n t r o l i s o u t d a t e d . 10 Mr Bekker also said that as recently as December 2017. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: S o t h a t i s M r K r u g e r. I am no expert. It is for the Commission to decide. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: On the 30th of July you see very clearly in the minutes t h e d i ff e r e n t v i e w s o n S e t To p B o x C o n t r o l . N o w t h i s s i r i s h o w m a n y days? It is 28 days beyond – 27 days beyond the signing and 28 days beyond a Committee which did not have the power to make the decisions it did. 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. MR CARRIM: Then …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Carrim. Without going through all the minutes. MR CARRIM: Ja. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The point that you are making is that Page 128 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 those who signed the agreement had no authority and your case - in fact what you are placing before the Commission is that there was no no Board approval for them to sign that agreement. Is that correct? MR CARRIM: Not that we can see from the minutes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: From the minutes. Ye s . Thank you. Let us move …(intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n k e e p y o u r m i c o n M r C a r r i m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n – o h , s o r r y. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Just keep it on. 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you very much and you have given us a list of those minutes that you say you have had a look at which do not show that they were the approval. Now let us – you have spoken a b o u t t h e r o l e o f M r B e k k e r. L e t u s m o v e o n t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t , b e c a u s e I k n o w t h a t y o u h a d s a i d t h a t y o u c a n n o t – y o u h a v e t o l e a v e t o d a y. Yo u r f l i g h t i s l a t e r t o d a y. S o w e j u s t h a v e t o t r y a n d m o v e a b i t q u i c k e r. Yo u h a v e d e a l t w i t h y o u r i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h M r B e k k e r. Could you just tell the Chairperson what were your meetings about? Yo u h a v e h a d m e e t i n g s w i t h h i m a n d t h a t – y o u s t a r t w i t h t h a t f r o m paragraph 135 and that will be at page 43. Could you just briefly tell 20 the Chairperson where you met him? Why did you meet with him? MR CARRIM: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . I will be very brief. I think the advocate is getting rightly …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No, no, no. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. MR CARRIM: I have indicated that because of budget tomorrow – it is Page 129 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 B u d g e t D a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR CARRIM: I cannot be here, but I am available next week. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o w e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . MR CARRIM: Alright. So I will go …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: Actually I can tell you that I have said to Ms Norman t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e w h o l e d a y o n y o u r a ff i d a v i t b e c a u s e a l t h o u g h i t ’s q u i t e e x t e n s i v e , 8 0 p a g e s , I t h i n k t h a t t h e t h i n g s that I’m really interested in may be taking round about 40 pages or 10 thereabout. The others are important to you for purposes of how this whole thing evolved but I have said we should be able to finish earlier than we have but there has been much to talk about, yes. MR CARRIM: Ye s , s o p a r a g r a p h 1 3 5 , I s i m p l y s a y t h a t M r P a t e l a s k e d me to meet Mr Bekker and I did around the September 2nd or 3rd in C a p e To w n . Now Mr Bekker had obviously served on various G o v e r n m e n t p a n e l s i n c l u d i n g P r e s i d e n t M b e k i ’s a d v i s o r y p a n e l a n d obviously his done considerably well and his company has, I mean, f r o m a n e w a l e r t o f t h e a p a r t h e i d e r a t o t h e t h i r d l a r g e s t m e d i a i n d u s t r y, I m e a n t h a t ’s r e m a r k a b l e a n d a s S o u t h A f r i c a n s w e s h o u l d b e p r o u d o f 20 that. They play a very crucial role in the economy they are the biggest player in the JSE and I deal with how good they did but at the same t i m e i t f l o w e d f r o m t h a t t h a t M r B e k k e r s e e m e d t o f e e l t h a t w h a t ’s g o o d f o r N a s p e r s i s g o o d f o r t h e c o u n t r y, e v e n o u r d i g n i t a r i e s n o p e r s o n i n m y v i e w. W h e n I d e a l l a t e r w i t h r e g u l a t o r y c a p t u r e I p i c k t h a t u p . Page 130 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Then where the first meeting – what his primary preoccupation w a s t o t e l l m e t h a t t h e S e t To p B o x p o l i c y i n t h e G o v e r n m e n t i s a b i g f o l l y, i t ’s u n n e c e s s a r y, i t ’s o u t d a t e d a n d h e s e e m e d t o w a n t t o a d v i s e me on these matters and he was very dismissive of the facilitation process by the independent facilitators. 137, but I kept the door open t o h i m b e c a u s e h e ’s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t m a n i n t h e b r o a d c a s t i n g s e c t o r and the media section, we agreed we’d meet again and talk more about broadband, that never came to be. Where the facilitation process reached an impasse various people, Cabinet Ministers, senior to me, 10 p e o p l e i n t h e i n d u s t r y, t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e i n P a r l i a m e n t , a l l s a i d , g o a n d m e e t M r B e k k e r, h e w i l l u n d o t h e . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) i f a n y b o d y d o e s i t . T h e y s a i d i t ’s n o t w o r t h w h i l e p u r s u i n g it with Mr Indias Patel and Mr Nono Letele, that the real power that be is Mr Bekker so we arranged such a meeting and that occurred in March 2014 …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: MR CARRIM: And that is on page? S o r r y i t ’s o n p a g e 4 4 p a r a g r a p h 1 4 2 , s o t h a t o c c u r r e d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 4 h e r e i n Ts h w a n e a n d M r P a t e l w a s v e r y k e e n t h a t w e h a v e this meeting. He said that Mr Koos Bekker will think out of the box and 20 M r B e k k e r r e s p e c t e d a p a r t i c u l a r M i n i s t e r, s o t h e M i n i s t e r w a s a l s o president. So originally Mr Bekker focused on how powerful Naspers is, h o w m u c h t h e y c o n t r i b u t e t o t h e t a x r e v e n u e i n t h i s c o u n t r y, a n d t h e y do and they’re treated very well all over the world but they see him in S o u t h A f r i c a t o h a v e I C . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) f r o m t h e i r o w n c o u n t r y. 1 4 4 , w h a t h a p p e n s i s , a t o n e s t a g e I t o l d h i m , M r B e k k e r, y o u k n o w, y o u h a v e t o Page 131 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 allow for competition, i t ’s untenable 98% of paid TV is not transformation. So at one stage, to my surprise he said to me, give me two or three names of black people you think I should encourage to compete, to which I said, we can’t, you can’t choose your own competitors and n o r c a n a M i n i s t e r d e c i d e , i t ’s p o l i c i e s a n d r e g u l a t i o n s t h a t w i l l a n d I also pointed out to him, or I may have then or subsequently to others in MultiChoice and Naspers that they got the sole license, I think in 1988 t o l a u n c h M - N e t a n d I r e a d i n a n a r t i c l e , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t ’s t r u e t h a t 10 they were also given some financial support, that may or may not be true by the Government at the time but they were very close to the N a t i o n a l P a r t y, t h e y h a d a h e a d s - u p s t a r t , t h e y w e r e f a r a h e a d o f anybody else, I suggested to Mr Bekker than, that look, even if you are a c o m p e t i t o r i t ’s g o i n g t o t a k e a v e r y l o n g t i m e M r B e k k e r f o r t h i s competitor to really be a real competitor but he wouldn’t have it and at some stage the meeting got very frosty because he kept repeating – he stopped me making my presentation, why we went for control, which is set out in there and he was dismissive and he stopped me and he told me this is all nonsense and DTI doesn’t know what it is doing and so on 20 a n d t h e n h e s a i d t h a t , M i n i s t e r, s o m e t h i n g t o t h i s e ff e c t , y o u s p e a k t h e l a n g u a g e o f e T V. N o w t h i s c a m e a f t e r a t e l e p h o n i c e x c h a n g e w i t h h i m , this is March 2014, in December 2013 when I found him to try to get him to come to a meeting with me to try to find some sort of compromise and to complain to him that people at MultiChoice and SABC are going about saying that I’m in the power of eTV which is Page 132 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 exactly what he had said and that I’m corrupt and so on and I told him t h a t ’s o u t r a g e o u s . A t s o m e s t a g e t h e r e ’s a n a r t i c l e b y M r L l o y d G a t e s i n t h e M a i l & G u a r d i a n w h e r e I t o l d h i m , I a s k e d M r B e k k e r, a s I r e m e m b e r i t , l o o k man what will I do, I’m so overpaid as a Minister what am I going to do w i t h t h e m o n e y, h o w m a n y n o v e l s a m I g o i n g t o b u y. H i s r e p l y t o m e w a s v e r y u n s y m p a t h e t i c , h e s a i d , t e l l m e M i n i s t e r, m o r e o v e r h e s e e m e d to know exactly what happens in SABC Board Meetings which are meant to be close meetings. He seemed to know very much what was 10 h a p p e n i n g a n d h e w a s u n s y m p a t h e t i c , s o l e t ’s g o t o 1 4 6 w h e r e M r B e k k e r, a g a i n , a c c u s e d m e o f l i k e – s p e a k i n g t h e l a n g u a g e o f e T V. S o Chairperson I have many weaknesses, I’m human and I think it was in decorous but I swore him, the meeting got very heated, it was not c o r r e c t t o s w e a r h i m , i t ’s n o t d e c o r o u s b u t C h a i r p e r s o n i t ’s h u m a n . I was fed up with him not repeating this thing and this is the currency out there amongst the people who didn’t want control. Yo u k n o w C h a i r p e r s o n I t o l d h i m a t o n e s t a g e , I g i v e a l o t o f m y m o n e y a w a y, I d r i v e r a 2 0 0 1 To y o t a C o r o l l a i n 2 0 1 4 , I d r i v e 2 0 0 5 S c e n i c , w h a t w i l l I d o w i t h t h e m o n e y. 20 S o C h a i r p e r s o n I ’ m s o r r y, m y sensibilities are very trodden on, so I swore him which I regret but can I move on the to – I asked him, can you give me information, evidence t h a t I s p e a k t h e l a n g u a g e o f e T V, s e c o n d l y c a n y o u , i n f a c t , s h o w m e w h i c h s t a t e m e n t s I ’ v e i s s u e d t h a t a r e d r a f t e d b y e T V, i t ’s n o t f o r t h c o m i n g e v e n u p t o n o w, I a s k e d M r L o l o L e t e l e t o d e l i v e r t h a t o n Page 133 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 t h e 1 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 . I w o u l d l i k e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n , i f i t ’s p o s s i b l e t o g e t t h e e v i d e n c e , w h e r e ’s t h e e v i d e n c e , o k a y. T h e n t h e n e x t t h i n g i n l a t e 2 0 1 4 – w e l l I ’ l l d r o p t h a t i t ’s n o t r e a l l y n e c e s s a r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y, y o u r i n t e r a c t i o n s w i t h M r Bekker and basically with MultiChoice/Naspers personalities gave me t h e – g a v e y o u t h e i m p r e s s i o n , a n d t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m r e a d i n g i n y o u r – t h a t ’s t h e i m p r e s s i o n I g e t f r o m y o u r a ff i d a v i t , t h a t t h e y w e r e – w h a t 10 t h e y w e r e a b o u t w a s t o p r e v e n t e ff e c t i v e c o m p e t i t i o n f r o m b e i n g allowed. MR CARRIM: Absolutely Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: They were dominating the market and they were doing whatever they could to avoid competition happening? MR CARRIM: Absolutely Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s . As I’ve said, with Mr Bekker it seemed almost like a primitive defence of territory and turf, he was the one that first introduced paid TV with his colleagues, he was going to allow any up 20 starter coming to his turf. It wasn’t a defence of profits, I’ve said that p u b l i c a l l y a n d i t ’s t h e r e i n t h e t e x t . CHAIRPERSON: So I’m just mentioning that because that might really cover your interactions with them but having said that there may be important things you want to highlight in regard to your entire interactions with them, then maybe you can highlight those. Page 134 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MR CARRIM: Ye s , w e l l t h a t c o m e s l a t e r a n d M s N o r m a n w i l l g u i d e u s b u t I r e f e r t o , f o r e x a m p l e – w e l l C h a i r p e r s o n y o u k n o w, b e f o r e y o u a r e a s e t o f e - m a i l s t h a t w e c a l l t h e N a m i c e - m a i l s s t r i c t l y s p e a k i n g i t ’s t h e Kitabo Vijay Panday wing of Namic. Those e-mails have been in the public domain, they are quoted in the very article that I refer to in the Mail & Guardian, they are quoted in other articles, they’ve been circulating since 2015 Chairperson, up till today nobody from MultiChoice has challenged the veracity of those e-mails and you have the means, I can tell by the so-called Gupta e-mails to check on its 10 v e r a c i t y. I w a n t t o s a y, b e f o r e i t ’s m i s u n d e r s t o o d a n d i n f a i r n e s s t o m e a n d t h e l a w y e r, P e t e r H a r r i s , I w a s t o l d b y M r N i d r e y a b o u t f i v e o r s i x months after the Mail & Guardian article appeared that there are these e - m a i l s h e s a i d , Yu n u s , a n d h e s a i d I c a n p a s s i t o n t o y o u , I t h i n k h e said, do you want to have a look at it. So I said to Mr Nidrey what is t h e r e t h a t I d o n ’ t a l r e a d y k n o w, a n d h e s a i d t o m e , j a a n d w e p a s s e d o n . I m o v e d o n , I w a s i n f i n a n c e a n d t h a t ’s a l o t o f w o r k a n d I ’ v e g o t a thousand other things to do. S o w h e n I f i r s t p r e p a r e d m y a ff i d a v i t I d i d a l e r t M r H a r r i s t h a t there are some of these issues like the Namic e-mails they’re there 20 somewhere, I don’t have them and we didn’t pay much attention to it but 10 days ago or so before the Commission, we met with the Commission and we tabled it and said, do you want these e-mails, they said yes, so Mr Nidrey made it available. Personally I only saw it for t h e f i r s t t i m e o n F r i d a y, l a s t w e e k w h e n I g o t t h e b u n d l e f r o m Te r e s a Geldenhuys, I read it. I was taken aback as to how much those e-mails, Page 135 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 if they are valid, and up to now they’ve never been challenged by Namic or indeed by Mr Koos Bekker and MultiChoice and Naspers, if t h e y a r e v a l i d , C h a i r p e r s o n y o u c a n e v e n t h r o w m y a ff i d a v i t a w a y q u i t e f r a n k l y j u s t l o o k a t t h o s e e - m a i l s , i t ’s a s t o n i s h i n g t h e c o l l u s i o n b e t w e e n M u l t i C h o i c e , M r B e k k e r ’s m e n t i o n e d t w i c e a n d s o , t h e c o l l u s i o n b e t w e e n M u l t i C h o i c e , t h e K i t a b o Ve j a y P a n d e y w i n g o f N a m i c , w h a t w e call the MultiChoice wing of Namic as against the Adile Chabaleng, P r o f e s s o r K h u n e n e w i n g . I d o n ’ t t h i n k y o u n e e d m y a ff i d a v i t r e a l l y, s o M r K o o s B e k k e r a n d h i s Te a m c o m e o u t t h e r e v e r y c l e a r l y. 10 I hope at some stage the Commission will find itself – because that is more powerful than anything I’ve said. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you, Chair I may just mention that those have been submitted to the Commission but they are being authenticated before they can be led as evidence before you. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h a t t h e n t a k e s c a r e actually Mr Carrim of what you deal with in the Namic issues that will b e f r o m p a r a g r a p h ’s 2 2 6 t o 2 4 2 b u t w h a t i s l e f t , r e a l l y i s – y o u ’ v e 20 covered everything about MultiChoice and its dominance in the industry and the influence that you say it had on the policy itself which is key to the work of the Commission. T h e l a s t i s s u e , r e a l l y, i s w h a t y o u d e a l with, which is really these other matters are really personal matters between you and MultiChoice and as we have discussed in consultation that I don’t think that they should dominate your evidence and – before Page 136 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 the Commission. Lastly then, in conclusion you make reference – you’ve made reference to what Mr Roy Kruger said about the STB boxes and their relevance and then in conclusion you make the case about regulatory capture and at paragraph 278 you make certain conclusions about who benefitted from the entire policy as you deal w i t h i t . I f y o u m a y t a k e i t , p a g e 7 9 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t , p a r a g r a p h 2 7 8 . Could you just testify to what you say there? MR CARRIM: The specific paragraph is, I’m on page 79 paragraph madam? 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , s o r r y, l i n k e d t o t h a t what I was just saying now could you just start from page – go to paragraph 187 at page 57 it will be linked to that conclusion that you make at 278. MR CARRIM: What precisely do you want me to deal with? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: MR CARRIM: Ye s , 1 8 7 . A h y e s , o k a y s o p e r h a p s I c a n o ff e r m y o w n o p i n i o n i t wasn’t a personal conflict between MultiChoice and me, I was only in t h a t s i t u a t i o n b e c a u s e I w a s a M i n i s t e r, I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e s e p e o p l e , I ’ d never met Mr Koos Bekker before I read it through, I met him just 20 fleetingly once on a plane, I don’t know him. So it was political and I was representing the ANC I insist and the Government and so – but what I mean by personal is to target me specifically and to demean me. There is the whole campaign there was a war room that was set up, ...(indistinct) was actually leading this war room and so, they had a Page 137 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 S p e c i a l Ta s k Te a m , m e d i a , t o f o c u s o n m e w h a t c o u l d b e f i n e , I ’ v e m a d e m a n y m i s t a k e s , b u t c e r t a i n l y, I ’ m n o t c o r r u p t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: A m I r e a d i n g y o u r a ff i d a v i t c o r r e c t l y, n a m e l y t h a t t h e o n l y r e a s o n t h e y a t t a c k e d y o u p e r s o n a l l y i n t h i s w a y, a s f a r a s y o u a r e concerned is because they didn’t like the policy position that you were p u r s u i n g a s M i n i s t e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR CARRIM: A b s o l u t e l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja they – it was not because of anything arising between your personal interactions with them it was arising out of your 10 performing your job as you understood it. MR CARRIM: Ye s e x a c t l y i n f a c t , i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, w h e n M r K o o s B e k k e r m e t m e i n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 , i n C a p e To w n , h e s a i d , y o u k n o w w e c h e c k e d y o u o u t M i n i s t e r, a s t h e y w o u l d d o , a n d w e s p o k e t o m a n y people and I know certainly one of the people is awkward because he t o l d m e a b o u t i t a n d h e s a i d a l l o f t h e m s a i d y o u a r e a v e r y h o n e s t g u y. Now from that to being accused of – in that advert of March 2014, s e r v i n g e T V ’s i n t e r e s t b u t b e y o n d t h a t t h e s c u r r i l o u s c a m p a i g n a g a i n s t me which hurts. T h e r e ’s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h b e i n g h u r t w h e n y o u ’ r e a c c u s e d o f c o r r u p t i o n a n d t h e r e ’s n o c a s e f o r i t , i t ’s o u t r a g e o u s f r o m 20 people, you’ll see from the e-mails, do things that you as a Judge will p r o b a b l y d e c i d e o n , b o r d e r o n c o m p l e t e i r r e g u l a r i t y. T h e r e a r e a l s o t a x issues that arise there, I Chaired the Finance Committee for the last f i v e y e a r s a n d t h e n C O P, I d o n ’ t k n o w f o r a f a c t , y o u w i l l g e t l a w y e r ’s and expert opinions but there are questions about tax issues that Page 138 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 N a m i c a n d M u l t i C h o i c e m i g h t h a v e t o a n s w e r f o r, b u t t h a t ’s f o r y o u t o decide Mr Chairperson. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: MR CARRIM: Thank you. So you want me to read …(intervenes). ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 187 yes. MR CARRIM: J a y o u s e e , t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g v e r y b i z a r r e a c t u a l l y a l m o s t . . . ( i n d i s t i n c t ) C h a i r p e r s o n , s o w h e n I b e c o m e M i n i s t e r, M r Motsoeneng – look I had to reach out to Mr Motsoeneng because the p u b l i c v i e w w a s t h a t h e ’s v e r y i n f l u e n t i a l o n t h e S A B C b u t h e ’s a l s o 10 very politically connected. Everybody – well people in the media saw it that way and I know I’ve got a point, people said, look manage him. So I did reach out to him, Ms Norman at times, and said I want to talk to him because I knew getting STB control going would require his support and the Chairperson, Sandile Shabalala, so I asked to see him but he also, was constantly reaching out to me. Now it was quietly odd because he seemed to see himself almost like an interlocutor between the President and me …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: 20 Between? Between the President and me, perhaps I should just read the text. CHAIRPERSON: MR CARRIM: Ye s r e a d i t . S w i f t l y, s o 1 8 7 , M s N o r m a n , “It also became clear shortly after I became Minister of Communication that Mr Motsoeneng saw himself as some sort of interlocutor between the President and me and as the Page 139 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 debate over the STB control matter escalated, he told me on several occasions that Wababa, meaning the President, would not or did not agree that there should be STB control. Mr Shabalala also asked me several times if the President agreed with me, implying that he did not. I pointed out to them that the President presided over the ANC and the country when the December 2012 ANC conference took the r e l e v a n t d e c i s i o n s a n d c o m p e t i t i o n a n d t h e p a i d T V S e c t o r, the ANC NEC Communications Committee had expressed its support for STB control, the Cabinet took the decision on the 10 4th of December 2013 and also that I had briefed him on the policy before taking it to the Cabinet Committee. I made it very clear to Mr Motsoeneng that when I was appointed a M i n i s t e r, I w a s n o t t o l d b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a t h a t I h a d t o answer to Mr Motsoeneng, I remain, Chairperson, astonished a t M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s s e n s e o f p r o p r i e t a r y ” . I then go on to say that basically I briefed the President from w h a t I c o u l d t e l l i n a 4 0 - m i n u t e e x c h a n g e t h a t ’s b e f o r e I t o o k i t t o Cabinet, he agreed with what I was saying, he didn’t disagree with it. 20 So subsequently they went around saying I misled the President. So I want to deal with it at present, because t h a t ’s dishonest and outrageous. I mean, I’m a Minister appointed by him, so I would like to put it on record. “I had briefed the President, paragraph 190, at some l e n g t h o n t h e B D M P o l i c y, t h a t ’s t h e B r o a d c a s t D i g i t a l Page 140 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Migration that was adopted on 4th December 2013 before it was taken to a Cabinet Committee. He agreed with the approach set out, it is possible that he may have misunderstood me Chairperson but Mr Motsoeneng and Ms Shabalala went about saying that I had misled the President. It would make no sense for me to do this, that would be no benefit to me at all”. Also in my engagement with senior Ministers and other ANC l e a d e r s t h e r e w a s u n a n i m o u s s u p p o r t f o r t h e p o l i c y, s o w h y w o u l d I 10 need to mislead the President. p o l i c y. They also said that eTV drafted the President I use the information – Chairperson, from the F a c i l i t a t i o n C o m m i t t e e . I r e a d i t v e r y w i d e l y, I h a d t h i s e x c e l l e n t Te a m of advisors, privileged to have them. One morning, it just popped into my head – I got up in the morning, you know we percolate, now I’m c o n s c i o u s a n d s u d d e n l y o n e m o r n i n g i n Ts h w a n e , I r e m e m b e r I g o t u p a n d s u d d e n l y t h o u g h t , y o u k n o w w h a t , l e t ’s s e t t l e i t l i k e t h i s a n d I ’ v e already explained the policy to you, a compromise. Those who want c o n t r o l c a n h a v e i t b u t t h e y ’ v e g o t t o p a y, t h o s e w h o w a n t c o n t r o l c a n now have it and the Manufacturing Sector defended and the other 20 objected. So I literally drafted the Cabinet memo, Ms Rosie Sekese h e l p e d w i t h n o t e s , s o d i d M r K r u g e r a n d o t h e r, t h e Te a m I m e n t i o n e d , W a n d a a n d M r N i d r e y a n d s o o n b u t I d r a f t e d i t , i t ’s a c t u a l l y w r i t t e n b y me. So its nonsensical that eTV did it and if they said so, obviously I s a y l a t e r t h e i t ’s j u s t a l i e b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y s a i d i t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you, could I just take you back Page 141 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 again, just one paragraph it is very important which you omitted at page 42 paragraph 131. MR CARRIM: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Where you deal with Gupta leaks, how M u l t i C h o i c e p a i d t h e G u p t a ’s m i l l i o n s , c a n y o u j u s t d e a l w i t h t h a t paragraph please? MR CARRIM: Ye s , o b v i o u s l y I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e s e e - m a i l s , y o u s e e m t o d o b u t i n a n y c a s e I s a y, i n a N e w s 2 4 m e d i a a r t i c l e , d a t e d 2 4 t h November 2017, titled: 10 “ G u p t a l e a k s , h o w M u l t i C h o i c e p a y t h e G u p t a ’s m i l l i o n s , M s M a c , t h a t ’s C l a r i s s a M a c , t h e p e r s o n d e a l i n g o n behalf of MultiChoice on Regulatory and Government m a t t e r s , I t h i n k s h e ’s s i n c e r e s i g n e d i s a l l e g e d t o h a v e drafted a crucial Government document on the relocation of broadcasting policy powers to the newly created separate Ministry and Department of Communication. As stated above Ms Mac and Mr Patel were the lead negotiators for MultiChoice in the STB control negotiations. The media attached article is attached as 20 A n n e x u r e 11 a n d i t s t a t e s t h e f o l l o w i n g , a n d I q u o t e , M u l t i C h o i c e E x e c u t o r, C l a r i s s a M a c o f c o u r s e h a s s i n c e resigned it says here, sent policy documents directly to M u t h a m b i , t h a t ’s t h e M i n i s t e r w h o s h a r e d t h e m w i t h Gupta Lieutenant Ashu Chawla”. Page 142 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 I t h i n k h e ’s t h e p e r s o n m e n t i o n e d i n t h e e a r l i e r e - m a i l s w h e n M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s PA w a s h e r e , “Setting out proposals for Zuma to transfer broadcasting powers to Muthambi after he split the Communications Portfolio Committee into two Departments in 2014”. C h a i r p e r s o n t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g e l s e t h a t I n e e d t o d r a w t o y o u r a t t e n t i o n , a l l o v e r t h e w o r l d t h e I n t e r n a t i o n a l Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s s a y s you should converge. Our ICT green paper adopted, in December 2013 also 10 called for convergence, basically this means that whereas p r e v i o u s l y t h e r e w a s a s e p a r a t e p o s t o ff i c e , a s e p a r a t e t e l e v i s i o n a n d so on and so on, now your very simple cell phone you can watch video o n d e m a n d , y o u c a n a c t u a l l y s e e m o v i e s . Yo u c a n w a t c h T V, y o u c a n watch the news, you can actually send messages that you otherwise w o u l d h a v e s e n t t o t h e p o s t o ff i c e v i a e - m a i l s a n d s o o n , s o i t ’s c o n v e r g e n c e i t ’s o u r e n t i r e g r e e n p a p e r. W e v i s i t e d a l l n i n e p r o v i n c e s , we had a convergence. major National consultative conference, it called for It was very surprising, against the global trade and against the ICT green paper where the Departments became split into t w o m i n i s t r i e s a n d t w o D e p a r t m e n t s . S o i t ’s a b o u t t r a n s f e r r i n g p o w e r s 20 a n d t h e r e w a s a t u s s l e a s y o u k n o w, i n t h e p u b l i c d o m a i n , M i n i s t e r Cwele and Minister Muthambi about where the Broadcast Digital Migration belongs, must it belong to Minister Muthambi or the Minister o f Te l e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s P o s t a l . S o t h a t ’s t h e r e f e r e n c e h e r e , i t ’s astonishing that somebody outside with a vested material and profit interest could actually draft or contribute in this way to drafting a Page 143 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Cabinet memo on the division of powers which resides in the P r e s i d e n c y m o r e o v e r. I f a s M s M a c h a s s a i d e l s e w h e r e o r M u l t i C h o i c e says, she was merely making a submission, then presumably other people should also be entitled to make a submission or in this sector b e c a u s e t h e y ’ r e a p r i v a t e s e c t o r c o m p a n y. H e r e a g a i n i s a n e x a m p l e o f r e g u l a t o r y c a p t u r e , t h e e n t i r e a ff i d a v i t , i f y o u l i k e , o n e o f i t s m a i n s u b things is precisely your concern about State Capture a specific form of regulatory capture and if you look at those e-mails, which I hope you will get to do at the Commission sometime, you will see very 10 evocatively and very starkly there. May I also say that I have no personal objection, and who cares what I think in a powerful ANC Government where I’m a marginal p l a y e r, t o l o b b y. C h a i r p e r s o n , l o b b y i n g b y b u s i n e s s i s e x a c t l y c o r r e c t i n a d e m o c r a c y. I f t h e Tr a d e U n i o n s c a n l o b b y a n d t h e N G O ’s c a n l o b b y G o v e r n m e n t s o m u s t i n f a c t , b u s i n e s s , t h a t ’s p e r f e c t n o r m a l , i t ’s e n d e m i c i n a d e m o c r a c y. T h e q u e s t i o n , h o w e v e r, i s , w h e r e d o t h e boundaries begin and end. We are a civilised, non-racial, social d e m o c r a c y, w e m u s t b e b o u n d b y t h e n o r m s o f t h e c o n s t i t u t i o n . Nowhere, Chairperson in law or in the constitution does it say that 20 MultiChoice could have done what it actually did and those e-mails will be the most stark illustration of how irregular and how unfortunate it would seem their behaviour was. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you, and you make the statement in paragraph 133, the next page. Page 144 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 MR CARRIM: “The influence of MultiChoice in drafting a policy for Government which is thereafter transmitted to the G u p t a ’s i s i r r e g u l a r, t h a t ’s p u t t i n g i t m i l d l y. ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you and then – now I think we can go back to where we were at paragraph – the last paragraph 278 of your statement we have covered the main areas. MR CARRIM: Ye s d o y o u w a n t m e t o s u m m a r i s e t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: MR CARRIM: 10 Ye s p l e a s e . 278, Chairperson on page 79 reads: “It is only Naspers and MultiChoice that have benefitted from this change in policy by Minister Muthambi even though they are increasingly challenged by streaming services they still retain their strangle and domination of p a i d T V a t h u g e c o s t s t o t h e e c o n o m y a n d t h e c o u n t r y, especially the poor and disadvantaged. Previously as stated earlier they did this to get close links to the apartheid Government, now they do so through the frailties of those of us elected to Government and the inertia 20 of concludes our democratic by saying, but State we but moreover cannot allow 279 this Chairperson we waste a titanic struggle over decades at a huge cost against apartheid and we finally triumphed over it through an unprecedented negotiated transfer of p o w e r. O f c o u r s e t h e l e g a c y o f a p a r t h e i d p e r s i s t s t h e r e are many problems that we have inflicted in ourselves Page 145 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 and the transition still has a long way to go but we can and must, over time, triumph over our current challenges as one of many aspects of this transition we need to accelerate the digital migration process as part of transforming our country in the interest of all the people, particularly the poor and disadvantaged and we need to do this soon, otherwise the fourth industrial revolution will leave us far behind, to the detriment of all our people, not just the poor and disadvantaged”. 10 Chairperson if we complete the digital migration process what is revealed in the first thirty pages, you get a digital dividend, which means, Chairperson, to put it crudely if I’m a Politician. Yo u s e e , l e t me put it like this, as simple as it can be, of course the technocrats – y o u s e e i f y o u t a k e S A B C 1 i t u s e s l e t ’s s a y o n e r a d i o f r e q u e n c y spectrum to crudify it right on an analogue, which is the current system, once you move to Digital, Mr Kruger and others will tell you, one radio frequency spectrum can give you between six, I think, and 15 television services. So the amount of radio frequency spectrum, which is a scarce 20 s o u r c e t h a t i s u s e d u p w i t h t h e c u r r e n t – a t a v i s t i c o r w h a t c a n y o u s a y, backward, outdated analogue television system you release so much a s p e c t r u m t h a t y o u c a n p r o d u c e m o r e c h a n n e l s i n d i ff e r e n t l a n g u a g e s i f you had the resources to do so, you’ll encourage more competition, p a i d T V w i l l g e t c h e a p e r, m o r e p e o p l e w i l l h a v e a c c e s s t o i t b u t Page 146 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 s e c o n d l y, v e r y i m p o r t a n t l y C h a i r p e r s o n , t h i s i s n o t , a s I t r i e d t o s u g g e s t to you only about broadcasting. You’re g o i n g t o r e l e a s e r a d i o f r e q u e n c y s p e c t r u m f o r a l l t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r s i n t h e m o b i l e s e c t o r, s o Vo d a c o m , Ce l l -C, M T N , Te l k o m M o b i l e, t ha t w il l be ea s y, w hen we as Government, as ANC attack the h i g h c o s t o f d a t a , o f c o u r s e w e a r e r ig h t t o d o t h a t , be c a u s e w e a r e i n a k n o w l e d g e e c o n o m y, i n f o r m a t i o n s o c i e t y. I f y o u w a n t t o r e a c h t h e r u r a l p o r e , i f y o u w a n t t hem t o e nt e r th e m a r k e t , t h e e c o n o m y w i t h l i t t l e p r o j e c t s a n d l i t t l e s e l f-h e l p e m p l o y m e n t s c h e m e s , a n d l i t t l e S M M E ’s , y o u 10 n e e d d at a perv as iv e be a v a i l a b l e . T h e c o s t i s p r o h i b i t e d . So, you have got also a very vital source of revenue, you can a s k N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u ry, i t i s w o r t h b i l l i o n s o f R a n d s , r e l e a s i n g t h e s p e c t r u m w h i c h i s n o w u n d e r a g e n d a C h a i r p e r s o n w i t h t h e n e w M i n i s t e r, but obviously the crucial part of the spectrum if I understand this c o r r e c t l y, a n e x p e r t w i l l h e l p y o u m o r e i n t h i s r e g a r d , ca n o n l y b e offer e d when the digital migration process is complete. So where are we Chairperson? Collectively, that is why I a p olo g i s e d t o m y co l l e a g u e s , m y o ff i c i a l s i n t h e Department a n d e x p e r t s w h o h e l p m e a s a p o l i t i c i a n . Politicians, we have th ick skin s, oth e r w i s e y o u c a n n o t b e a 20 p o l i t i c i a n , b u t o ff i c i a l s , t h e y s h o u l d s e r v e t h e p u b l i c o u t t h e r e . T h e y m u s t b e n e u t r a l a n d i m pl e m e n t p o l i c i e s t h a t t h e M i n i s t e rs i n C a b i n e t a n d t h e majority party in consultation, minority parties decide, so what I am s a y i n g i n s h ort is my understanding is and I could be wrong, the Set To p Boxes that were released after the last tender after I left , are d orma nt . Apparently they are lying, I do not know, in various warehouses, I do not Page 147 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 k n o w w h e r e i t i s , b u t t h e d i g i ta l m i g r a t i o n p r oc e s s r e g r e t t a b l y, b u t I h a v e c o n f i d e n c e i n t h i s n e w M i n i s t e r fo r wh at it is wo rt h . I th ink sh e is go in g t o get in g oing , a n d t h e P re s i d e n t a n d G o v e r n m e n t . They have been raising this spectrum issue, but we have been held back ultimately b y M u l t i C h o i c e a nd Naspers i n p a r t i c u l a r. S e c o n d l y, I w a n t t o m a k e s o m e t h i n g c l e a r, i t i s n o t a s i f t h o s e w h o i d e n t i f i e d w i t h M u l t i C h o ic e a n d Naspers i n p a r t i c u l a r, d i d s o a n d w e r e u s e d b y Naspers a n d M u l t i C h o i c e . No – n o t h e y a l s o h a d t h e i r o w n p e r s o n a l b u si n e s s a n d o t h e r m a t e r i a l i n t e r e s t s . P e o p l e i n ACSTAR, I mea n c o m mu n i ty TV. Wh a t ha s 10 c o m mu n i ty TV g ot t o do with e a ch o f dig ita l m i g r a t i o n . T h e y we r e h i g hb o u n d t o Naspers a n d M u l t i C h o i c e , w h o t h r e a t e n e d t h e m , t h r e a t e n e d t hem t ha t if , I am t ol d, i f yo u su p p o r t e nc r y p t i o n we will dispose of you in t he M ul t iChoi c e bo uquet, DSTV b ouq uet , b ut so me of t h em re ach e d o u t t o t he ad vi s ors a n d m y s e l f a n d s a i d l o o k m i s t e r, we d o n ot ha ve a view o f t hi s t hi ng. It d oes n ot affe ct u s. I f yo u can f u nd u s, a s th e M inist ry, o n e o f t hem a ppro a c h e d m e , w e w i l l s u p p o r t i n e n c r y p t i o n . And I say no, then I am buying you my friend. No th at i s e q u al l y w r o n g a s M u l t i C ho i c e ’s b e h a v i o u r. Yo u h a v e i n t h i s a ff i d a v i t , c a n I ju s t read w ha t Mr Yunis Sheik sent me? 20 M u l t i C ho i c e …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : J a , t hat is righ t, j a . ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Can you help m e M s Norman? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Yes . Yes . E-m a i l e d b y. Page 148 of 169 Look at the bi l l i n g b y 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : I th in k it is, I will fin d it n o w …(interven e s ) . M r Yunis Sheik of eTV …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Yes . Wh e r e h e s a y s th e y h a v e a c t u a l l y b e e n i s s u e d , t h a t i s a n o t h e r e x a m p l e o f r e g u l a t o r y c a p t u r e …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : J a, y o u r e f e r r ed to it ea rlie r, le t u s g o thro ugh it so you c a n r e a d i t , j a …(intervenes). M R CARRIM : 10 Th es e are Mr Yunis Sheik’s wo rds, it is an e -m a i l s e n t t o m e . N o w m a y b e M s Norman you can help me. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Yes . I am jus t …(intervenes). I will look fo r it q u ickly in my ow n not es. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Page 41, y e s ? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON : It is re fe rre d t o a s Ann exure 8. Th ank you . Annexure 8? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Chair, it is on page 41 …(intervenes). On page Annexure 8 …(intervenes). 41, I literally quoted so it is e a s i e r. …(intervenes). 20 ADV THA ND I NO RMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON : It i s o n p a g e 11 8 . Yes . Do y ou want to read it from where y ou quote it if t hat …(intervenes). M R CARRIM : So th a t i s o n e , p a r a g r a p h 1 2 7 , S i r. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Yes . Page 149 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R CARRIM : Right. It is on page 4 1 o f m y t e x t . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . I sa y, “In addition just as the facilitation process was b e g i n n i n g , M r Yunis Sheik, a n e T V E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r wrote on t he 5 t h o f September 2013 to inform me that Naspers / M u l t i C h o i c e t h r e a t e n e d t o p u n i s h e T V i f t h e y a r g u e d i n f av o u r o f S D B C o n t r o l i n t h e f a c i l i t a t i o n process.” 10 A copy of Mr Sheik’s e -m a i l i s a t t a c h e d h e r e t o a s A n n e x u r e 8 , a n d i t s t a t ed t h e f o l l o w i n g , t h e n I l i t e r a l l y q u o t e t h e e-m a i l w h i c h y o u h a v e a s a n a n n e x u r e , I w i l l r e a d i t t o y o u , t hi s i s M r Yunis Sheik’s w o r d s addressed to me: “We draw to your attention the following, one: we h a v e b e e n a d v i s e d t h i s d a y, t h a t w i l l b e t h e 5 Sep t embe r 2 013 by DST V th at if we shou ld exp ress s u p p o r t f o r t h e B D M P o l i c y a n d S e t-Up Box control d u r i n g t h e co u r s e o f t h e f a c i l i t a t i on p r o c e s s , t h e y w i l l cancel the contract with eTV to host the ENCA News 20 Channel on the DSTV platform. In additi o n , w e h a v e been handed a script,” Now Chairperson, handed a script by DSTV, “Which we were called upon to articulate . ” Notice, in parrot fashion : “To the facilitators you have appointed.” Page 150 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Point 2, “In addition, we have been informed by Hlaudi of SABC, t h a t t h e y i n te n d t o o p p o s e t h e B D M P o l i c y a n d Set Top Box Control. We understand they too may well have been issued with a similar script and I h a v e elected to succumb, least they s u ff e r similar consequences with regard to their new 24 hours news c h a n n el . Th e de cla ratio n o f eTV, D STV issu ed b y no less” 10 Notice Chairperson, “Issued by no less than its CEO Mr Koos Bekker, to our CEO Marcel Golding is at once designed to place us under duress and undermine the BDM Policy and t he f ac il i ta ti on p ro cess. In o u r vi e w t h e f a c il i t a t i o n process has been violated and the participants p l a c e d u n d e r c o n s i d e r a b l e d u r e s s t o o p p o s e t h e BDM Policy and Set Top Box Co n t r o l . F o r t h i s r e a s o n , w e a r e o f t h e v i e w, s u b j e c t t o y o u r a d v i c e , t h a t w e should 20 bedroll from the f a c i l i ta t i on process a l t oget her, as th e pro cess is co ndu cted und e r t h e a g e s o f t h e M i n i s t r y, w e s h o u l d w a n t t o h e a r f r o m y o u b e f o r e w e m a k e a f i n a l d e t e r m in a t i o n o f t h e m a t t e r. ” I n s u bse quent pa rag ra ph s C hairp erso n , summa rize d, I h an ded o v e r t o M r N i d r i …(inter v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERS O N: Yes . Page 151 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 M R CARRIM : He then took it to Mr Harris and the facilitation Te a m, th e y m e t w i t h b o t h s id e s a n d t h e y b r o u g h t – th ey b ro u g h t e T V b a c k i n . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . L e t m e a l s o r e a d t h e p a r a g r a p h p r e c e d i n g th at is lin ke d t o it, where it shows again regulatory capture. Paragraph 126 read: “It has been alleged that Naspers MultiChoice a s s i s t e d K e i t h T h a b o , t h e f o r m e r President of Namec, t o dra ft an o pin ion p ie ce, in h is n ame. An a rt icle in t he Mai l a nd Gu ard ian d ate d 2 9 M a y 20 1 5 . ” 10 Annexu re 5 states the following: “AmaBhugane has also learned that at about the s a m e t i m e , M u l t i C h o i c e ’s m a n a g e m e n t w a s i n v o l v e d in producing an opinion piece published in April last y e a r t h a t a t t a c k e d C a r r i m . Th e a rt icle w as p u blishe d u n d er the by -l i n e o f K e ith Th ab o, t he t he n Presid en t of Namec. It is an important lobby group for mainly Blacks more, medi u m a n d m i c r o-e n t e r p r i s e s i n t h e e l e c t r o n i c m a n u f a c t u r i n g s e c t o r. AmaBhugane has s e e n t h e m a i l , e-m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m A p r i l 2 1 20 l a s t y e a r, i t i s p r e s u m a bl y 2 0 1 4 b e t w e e n C a l v o Mawela, the head of, excuse me, of stakeholder and regulatory affairs for Mul tiC ho ice Sou th Africa, and Th abo, referring to M a w e l a ’s role in penning an opinion piece published on the technology website Te c h C e n t r a l o n t h e sa m e d a y. ” Page 152 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 I n t he e -m a i l w r i t e s M a w e l a : “Herewith the final article as requested,” He then provides Thabo wi th th e e-m a i l a d d r e s s o f Te c h C e n t r al Editor, Duncan McLeod saying: “I think, try to get him try to get it to him as soon as possible” Th e art ic le e n t i t l e d : “M i n i s t e r y o u a r e m i s l e a d i n g t h e p u b l i c a c c u s e s Ca r r i m o f r e w r i t i n g h i s t o r y a n d d i s t o r t i n g f a c t s . M u l t i C h o i c e d e s c r i b e t h e a l l e g a t i on t h a t i t w a s 10 involved in authoring opinion pieces from Namec Consulting. Through its office bearers ” O n t h e ne x t p a g e 4 1 Namec asked Mr Mavela’s input. This is a q u o t e s o r r y f r o m J ac k i e R a k t i l a w h o i s a M u l t i C h o i c e . .. (ind istinct ) s h e claims: “T h r o u g h i t s o ff i c e b e a r e r s Namec approached Mr Mavela to provide an input as a broadcasting e n g i n e e r a n d h e s h a r e d h is t h o u g h t b as e d o n h i s e x p e r t k n o w l e d g e o f t h e b r o a d c a s t s i g n i f i c a n c e .” 20 Th is is i n th e pu b lic domain , it is f rom those e -m a i l s t h a t y o u h a v e , b u t le t m e p u t s o m e t h i n g t o y o u C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t i s o b v i o u s . Mr Kythivo d o e s n o t e v e n k n o w t h e e -m a i l a d d r e s s o f Duncan M c L e od . H e has given it by Mr Mavela moreover Mr Mavela says try to get it to him as s o o n a s p o s s i b l e i s j u s t m e r e l y a n e d i t i n g . S e c o n d l y th e e -m a i l s r e v e a l t here wa s f ar, f ar more t han ju st t his ro le th at M r Ma vela played . I wa s Page 153 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 s u r p r is e d w h e n I s a w t h e e-m a i l s o n F r i d a y n i g h t a t t h e e x t e n t t o w h i c h t here was c ol lu s i on . Act s Sou th Af rica is me n t io n ed th er e, Mr McKe n zi e is mentioned there and so on and so on. I will not say more because you a r e s t i l l a u t h e n t i c a t i n g. CHAIRPERSON : J a , t ha t is f i n e . ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Th an k yo u, la stly you h ave men t ion ed M r Mavela and you did mention that you got an apology from MultiChoice at s o m e s t a g e . C o u l d y o u g o t o p a g e 2 0 0 I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a i r, p a g e 7 1 p a r a g r a p h 2 5 3 y o u r c o u n s e l h a s a sk ed t h a t I as k y o u t o d e a l w i t h t h a t 10 p a r a g r a p h . T h a n k y o u. M R CARRIM : Yes – l e t m e t e l l y o u t h e c o n t e x t q u i c k l y C h a i r p e r s o n . S o , t he bus in ess t h e r e c o n t a c t s m e o n e d a y o u t o f t h e b l u e t h e y s a y t h e 6 t h o f J u n e a s w e k n o w i t 2 0 1 3 e-m a i l s h a v e b e e n r e l e a s ed i n t h e p u bl i c . I t h i n k i t e m e r g e d f r o m M r Vi n c e n t ’s S m i t h s Portfolio Committee o n t h e S A B C matters and she asked me whether I am aware that MultiChoice made it to q u o t e a n d t h e s e a r e M r P a t e l ’s w o r d s “ a d e a l b r e a k e r ” t h i s w h o l e i s s u e o f c o n t r o l a n d w e kn o w t h a t t h ey r a i s e d a c a m p a i g n a g a i n s t y o u a n d s o o n . So I explained to her it is not the norm for a M i n i s t e r to co mme n t , i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g i n t he m i n u t e s t h a t a t t a c k s m y i n t e g r i t y b e c a u s e i n t h a t c a s e 20 t here i s not hi ng in g overnme n t no rms a nd p o licies and rules or i n t h e A N C rules to say you must sacrifice your personal rules and political integrity f or t he s a ke o f what, what there is no such thing i n t h e N D R N a t i o n a l Democratic Republic. I do not know of any such norm. I said if there is a n a t t a c k o n my i n t e g r i t y, I will resp o nd b ut oth e rwise co n tact th e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e Committee . The jo u rnalist cam e b a c k t o m e Page 154 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 a n d s a i d , I t hi n k s h e s p o k e t o a n e w s e d i t o r, w e s a i d n o w e c a n n o t a s k t hem bec au s e th ey w ere no t here at the time I said n e i t h e r w a s I b u t s o reference to a policy that relates to my period and what she presumed to b e t h e r e a s o n p a r t l y f o r m y n o t b e i n g r e a p p o i n t e d . N ow I responded to her Chairperson, and not realising it is such a big story because I was b u s y w i t h m y w o r k a nd s h e w a s i rritating me, with due respect, but you k n o w I a m a j o u r n a l i s t . I m e a n I c a n n o t b e d i s m i s s i v e , s h e m e a n t w e ll s o t here it i s . Nex t day i t i s p a g e 1 o f b u s i n e s s d a y a n d t h e n e x t t h i n g I f i n d it is gone viral because you see MultiChoice is a world body and people 10 p h o n e d m e f r o m Re u t ers and I do not know what and so on. I went to e T V a g a i n b e c a u s e I h a d t h r e e r e qu e s t s f o r i n t e r v i e w s a t t h e s a m e t i m e . e T V a n d E N CA a s t h e y c a l l A NN7 a s i t w a s t h e n a n d S A B C a n d t h e p e r s o n t hat off ered me a l if t from where I was to ENCA s o I g o t i n t o t h e c a r a n d went so it blew up. Subsequently what happened was I met Mr Nono L e te l e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e d o i n g t h is i n q u i r y i n t o A NN7 . He is the Chairperson of MultiChoice I think he still is. So I met him and we had a d i s c u s s i o n a t t he O. R Ta m b o Ai r p o r t a n d h e a s k e d m e b a s i c a l l y, h e s a i d l o o k o v e r t h e p h o n e a n d s u b s e q u e n t l y I c a n n o t r e m e mb e r what was said over the phone and what was said personally to me, he said look Mr 20 Ca r r i m I d o n o t b e l i e v e y o u a r e c o r r u p t . I do not accept that you did a n y t h i n g w r o n g . Yo u c a n c a l l h i m h e r e , I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e w i l l s a y, but that is what he said to me Chairperson and I said – he asked me what do you want this was more or less it from us. After my statement to the b u s i n e s s d a y a n d th e t h i n g b l ew up. I said I want you to apologise to me I do not c are as I s ai d in my let ter t o h im su bseq uen tly. Page 155 of 169 Who c a r e s 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Chairperson in this da y a n d a g e w h e t h e r y o u a r e a M i n i s t e r o r a D e p u t y M i n i s t e r who c a r e s ? I n t he time t h at I w as th ere M s Norman t h e r e w e r e f our M i n i s t e rs c a n w e e v e n r e m e m b e r t h e m ? D o e s a n y o n e r e m e m b e r m a y b e n o w i f t h e y w a t c h i n g t h e y w i l l r e m e m b e r th at I wa s a M i n i s t e r fo r a brief period, who cares? What I do not want Mr Letele and I told him in m y l e t t e r s o i t i s t h e r e . I d o n o t want my g randchildren Googling one day i n t h i s I T age that their grandfather who presented himself as a socialist a n d as p r o g r e s s i v e w h o g a v e m on e y a w a y t h a t i s a c t u a l l y t a k i n g a b r i b e f r om eT V I c an no t t ak e t h at , I do n ot ca re wh et h e r I a m t he M i n i s t e r o r 10 n o t a l l I hav e got at t he en d of th e da y is my int eg r it y. So I wa nt you t o apologise, I want MultiChoice to apologise and you know what I want you t o p ut an adv ert in al l t hose six w ha teve r ne w spa p ers yo u did sa m e siz e a n d r e t a i n y o u r v i e w t h a t a c t u a l l y c o n t r o l wa s r i d i c u l o u s , e x p e n s i v e a n d so on but do not give me this line that you representing the pole. Yo u c a n n o t y ou a r e a b i g m o n o l i t h y o u a r e m a k i n g s u p e r p r o f i t s y o u c a n n o t t el l me y ou rep res ent t he po le eve n le ss can yo u sa y you r ep re sen t yo u r c o ns u m e r s w h o y o u c h a r g e s o m u c h , o k a y ? So he was v e r y c o n s i d e r a t e l y h e c a m e a c r o s s a s v e r y c i v i l a n d t o b e q u i t e f a i r y ou k n o w i n a l l t h e t i m e I e x c h a n g e d w i t h h i m , t h e f e w 20 exchanges I had unlike the others I had he is very civil. He is a very g e n t l e m a n l y t y pe s o h e t h e n s a i d w e l l I s e e y o u w o r k i n f i n a n c e a n d I d o n o t t h i n k y o u a r e c o r r u p t I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w f a r h e would take it. So, he wen t t o a Board Meeting , I am to ld b y o the rs, an d he p rese n te d a case. H e s a y s l o o k t h i s c h a p i s v e r y u p s e t o n l y a b o u t o n e th ing a s I understand it from somebody else, who gave me a fleeting account of it Page 156 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 h e s a i d h e w a n t s a n a p o l o g y. So , Mr Ca lvo Mave la di d a p o l o g i s e b u t Chairperson you will see the annexure and the end of a long explanation o n a c o n t r o v e r s i a l A N N7 d e a l w i th M u l t i C h o i c e t h a t w a s t h e f o c u s . He t hen s aid s o me th i ng l i ke, in so f a r as o u r Mar ch 20 1 4 ad ve rt su gg e st ed o r reflected on a M i n i s t e rs i n t e g r i t y. I n s o f a r a s s o m e t h i n g w e a p o l o g i s e , o k a y ? A n d s o , I w i l l r e a d t o y o u w h i l e I a c t u a l l y s a y a n d th e n I a m d o n e with this side unless you have more questions. So, it reads …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : 10 M R CARRIM : J a , l e t u s j u s t re a d t h a t p a r t So, you refer me to (In te rven e s ). ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: M R CARRIM : Paragraph 253? J a , i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e a b o v e o n th e 31 s t o f J an u a r y d u r i n g a M u l t i C h o i c e p r e s s c o n f e r e n c e M r M a v e l a t h e t h e n C h i e f E x e c u t i v e – Th e Chief Execu t iv e no w of Mu ltiCh oice a p o l o g i z e d t o m e r e g a r d i n g t h e o p e n l e t t e r r e f e r r e d t o a b o v e. Th a t i s t h e a d v e r t C h a i r p e r s o n . Th e sta te me n t of Mr Mavela is attached here to Annexure 20 and he said: “I would like to take this o p p o r tu n i ty to co nf irm th a t t he ope n l e t t e r w h i c h M u l t i C h o i c e p u b l i s h e d i n t h e Media on 16 March 2014 regarding digital migration, 20 was in no way intended to cast aspersions o n t h e i n te g r i t y o f t h e f o r m e r M i n i s t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t i o n s . ” Now here Chairperson, to tease the Commission a bit, my nam e i s s p e l t w r o n g , Yunis wi t h I , a n d C a r r i m w i t h a n E a n d m a y I s a y Chairperson if you care to read the annexure replying to Mr Andre Du Pl e s s i s t h e r e , h e s a y s , j a , y o u s e e C a r r i m a n d , w h a t i s t h i s g u y ? Yunis Page 157 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 Sheik. They were buddies in a Natal Indian Cong ress and so on, so I rep l i e d t o a l l o f t h a t . Yo u m a y h a v e s e e n i t . One of the teasing c o m m e n t s I m a k e , s a r c a s t i c c o m m e n t s , a n y w a y h e i s Y-u -n -i -s a n d I a m Yu -n -u -s . T hat is anot her th ing tha t d o es n ot bind u s. We wer e p a rt of a b r o a d e r m o v e m e n t ; I d o n o t k n o w h i m p a r t i c u l a r ly. H e i s a n i c e g u y f r o m what I know, but I am not a buddy of his. Okay, so I subsequently addressed a letter to Mr Letele dated 14 February 2018 wherein I raised my dissatisfaction Chairperson, and I still hold this regarding the apology o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J an u a r y 20 1 8 b y M r M a w e l a …(intervenes). 10 CHAIRPERSON : And basically, you were saying that the apology was in a d e q u a t e …(intervenes). M R CARRIM : Not acceptable, yes that is right. CHAIRPERSON : And was not published in the rig h t forum …(intervenes). M R CARRIM : Ja, Mr Koos Bekker did not apologize. It was not put on t hei r w eb s it e, s o me bod y to ld me . CHAIRPERS O N: M R CARRIM : t hi s. 20 Yes . Nobody even reported in the press and the Media to clarify I m ean s ome s t uden t mig ht b e d o i n g a t h e s i s 2 0 y e a r s f r o m n o w. Th e y w i l l G o o g l e t h a t C a r r i m w a s i n t h e p o w e r o f e T V. Mr Bekker has n e v e r a p o l o g i s e d . A n d t h e n I e x pl a i n e d w h at I just sa i d i n 2 5 6 t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t , a l l I h a v e i s m y i n t e g r i t y, a n d t h a t m a t t e r s t o m e . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Ja, no that is fine. An d i t s h o u l d t o a l l o f u s . and therefore he must apologise. I do not care about positions I s t i l l go t t h a t v ie w t h a t h e m u s t Page 158 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 apologise. CHAIRPERSON : Yes , no that is fine, thank y ou. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Th an k yo u M r C a r r i m , t h a n k y o u t h a t i s t h e evidence. CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, t h e , t h e r e m a y b e t w o o r s o q u e s t i o n s M r C a r r i m t hat I w ant t o as k y ou b e f o r e I re l e a s e y o u. One o f th e th ing s t hat h a s amazed me about the digital migration is the delay that has happened b e c a u s e t h e P o l i c y w a s – i n 2 0 0 8 o r i gi n a l l y i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, b u t w e a r e i n 2 0 2 0 , a n d t h e l a s t t i m e I c h e c k e d , n o t m u c h h a d h a p p e n e d , a nd I 10 wou l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t o ne , th e Pre sid e nt at t he time w ould h ave b e e n s a y i n g t o M i n i s t e r s i n t h i s p o r t f o l i o a t d i ff e r e n t t i m e s i n c l u d i n g y o u r s e l f wh e n y o u w e r e M i n i s t e r. W h a t i s g o i n g o n ? W h a t i s h o l d i n g t h i n g s u p ? I t i s t ak in g l ong t o get thing s d o n e a n d wanting t o b e i n f o r m e d . W h a t i s t he p robl em? D i d t hat hap pen durin g you r t e rm a s Min ist e r o f Communicatio n s ? M R CARRIM : Well t o b e fa ir to th en Pre side nt Zu ma , I ha d many meetings with him partly by his prompting. Never once did he say to me t hat he d o e s n o t s u p p o r t Set Top Box Control firstly. CHAIRPERSON : 20 M R CARRIM : Yes . Secondly, he realized, you kn o w C h a i r p e r s o n I s h o u l d s a y t hi s. T h e r e i s a v e r y d i s m i s s i v e a t t i t u d e i n t h e p u b l i c d o m a i n a b o u t t h e President. There are claims that h e d o e s n o t read docu m e n t s a n d s o o n . Well President, it is a bunch of lies a b o u t M r M o t s o e n e n g a s w e l l . Yo u k n o w, t h e President of the country at the tim e m a y n o t h a v e a d e g r e e , h e may not have even Class 2 education, but I think people underestimate Page 159 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 h i s i n t e l l e c tu a l a n d p ol i t i c a l c a p a c i t y. They underestimate his firm u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e i s s u e s . I n m y e x c h a n g e s w i t h hi m , I h a d a s t r o n g s e n s e h e k n e w e x ac t l y w h a t t h e i s s u e s w e r e . It is possible that s o m e b o d y w a s b r i e f i n g h i m b u t w h a t e v e r i t i s , a s a p ol i t i c i a n to a p o l i t ic i a n h e w a s …(intervenes). CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes , he unders tood the is s ues . He was remar k a b l y a w a r e o f t h e v a l u e o f S D B C o n t ro l l e d broadband and he constantly encouraged me. CHAIRPERSON : 10 M R CARRIM : Yes , ok ay. I n fa c t I me t pe o ple wh o t o l d m e what positive things he said about me, but what I want to say is that there were other powerful p eo p l e w h o w e r e a l s o s a y i n g I a m g o i n g to o fa st, o vert ly. N ow my vie w o f t he c u rrent P res i dent and th e Ca b ine t a nd Go ver nm e nt a nd a p ar tic u l a r M i n i s t e r S t e l l a Ndabeni -Abrahams, is they are very committed to move. T h e poi nt is t ha t we hav e t his b a gga ge t ha t we have to carry, and I think t hat Naspers / M u l t i C h o i c e t h a t i s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h i s a n d t h o s e w h o i d e n t i f i e d w i t h t h e m f o r t h e i r o w n n e ed s a n d w e r e a l s o t r y i n g t o u s e M u l t i C h o i c e a n d Naspers a s m u c h a s M u l t i C h o i c e a n d Naspers were t r ying to us e t he m. I al s o t h i n k C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u r i g h t l y r a i s e d l o n g-te r m 20 i s s u e s , t h e r e n e e d s t o b e a p r o p e r c o d e o f c o n d u c t a s I s a y. I n m y v i e w, I c a n n o t p re s c r i b e t o t h e Commission fo r b usin ess lo bb yin g o f p olit icians and politicians availability to business, so on the side of Parliament we n e e d t o t i g h t e n s o m e of th ese p ro visio ns, o n the side of busin ess we need to do that, because by any measure, the lobbying by MultiChoice was v e r y p r i m i t i v e , v e r y b a c k w a r d , i t i s n o t c o n s i s t e n t w i t h t h e s o c i a l Page 160 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 democracy we are. A n d i t h as c a u s e d a h u g e s t e p b a c k t o t h e d i g i t a l migration. It suits them because they can retain their monopoly and so on. S o C h a i r p e r s o n I w ou l d s a y t h a t t h e c u r r e n t G o v e r n m e n t , t h e A N C t oday w hi c h ret ai n s i ts v ie w o n Set Top Box Control, I think they are on t h e r i g h t c o u r s e a n d a s a n M P I w i l l p l a y whatever role I can to get them out of this phase, but they are on the right course, but they have to move f as t er in a ll o u r i n t e r e s t s . CHAIRPERSON : You may or not be able to deal with this but I as k a n y w a y. A t a c e r t a i n s t a g e a n d I t h i n k i t w a s a f t er your term as Minister. 10 T h e poli c y th at was pursued b y th e Ministe r o f Co m mu n ica t io n s, M s M u t h am b i , I s eem to h a v e g o t th e imp re ssio n tha t it w as not consist en t with the ANC policy on digital migration and it may n o t h a v e b e e n consistent with Government police as it was when you were Minister of Communications. One or two of these might not be corr e c t , b u t y o u c a n comment to the best of your recollection or understanding. M R CARRIM : Fi rs t ly C ha irpe rso n it is not fo r me to comme n t o n a M i n i s t e r ’s role after I have now been reappointed, that is not really – t h a t i s n o t m y t h i n g , b u t a l l I c a n t e l l yo u i s w h a t i s i n th e p u b l i c d o m a i n . CHAIRPERSON : 20 M R CARRIM : Yes , y es . You s ugges ted it s eems lik e the polic y that th e Minist e r a d o p t e d w a s n o t c o n si s t e n t w i t h t h e A N C p o l i c y a n d p r e v i o u s G o v e r n m e n t p o l i c y. We l l f i r s t l y, i n m y a ff i d a v i t y o u w i l l s e e th a t as re c e n t l y as a b o u t 1 8 m o n t h s a g o M r J ac k s o n M t h e m b u , t h e t h e n C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e N E C Sub -Committee and Communica tio ns rep e ate d th at SDB C ont rol re m a i n s G o v e r n m e n t p o l i c y, l o n g a f t e r M s M u t h a m b i. Th ere a re ma ny o th er Medi a Page 161 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 a r t i c l e s i f t h e r e s e a r c h Te a m G o o g l e ’s , w i ll f i n d a s t o m y k n o w l e d g e M s L i n d i w e Z u l u i n t h e l a s t f l e e t i n g e x c h a n g e I h a d w i t h h e r, h a d a l s o – s h e was the Chairperson prior to Mr M t h e m b u b e c o m i n g t h e C h a i r, a l s o expressed her concern to me privately that, you know that was not c o n s is t e n t G o v e r nm e n t p o l i c y, b u t s h e d i d n o t t a k e i t m o r e , i t w a s a f l e e ti ng exc h ang e in t he H ou se, b ut I sh o uld a lso sa y a s f a r a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t C h a i r p erson and I consulted with some people, the Court right up till the Constitutional Court you were served n e v e r p r o n o u nc e d o n t he le gali t y or ot he rwi s e of Set Top Box Control. 10 CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Th e y s i m p l y s a i d d o e s t h e M i n i s t e r h a v e t h e p o w e r ? CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Ja, no it did not. Ja. I t is o nly to da y Ch airpe rson, list e nin g t o yo u , o b viou s l y b e c a u s e y o u wer e t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : I dis c ov er it w as such a m a d n a r r o w m a j o r i t y. CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . Yes . Now there is s o m e t h i n g C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t p e o p l e o u t t h e r e I t hi nk s hou ld t hi n k abo ut . 20 CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . Which is we were n e v e r g o i n g t o g i v e e T V a s s u b s i d y. T h e re was no s uc h t hi ng. It is like th en sa ying t he G ove rn me n t i s g i v i n g a 7 b i l l i o n R a n d s u b s i dy t o t h e c a r i n d u s t r y, o r a l l t h e t a x i n c e n t i v e s w e g i v e t o b u s i n e s s , i t i s p o w e r f u l t h e c o u r s e i n d e v e l op e d d e m o c r a ci e s a n d here. T h e i r i n t e n t i o n w a s t o a c t u a l l y s q u e e z e e T V. Page 162 of 169 They were cooing 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 t hat t hey got t he ir w ay and M r Bekker and MultiChoice and Naspers were f ur io us as i f M r B ek ke r ’s m oo d s or Mu ltiC ho ice ’s m oo d s mu st d et e rm in e G o v e r n m e n t p o l i c y b u t i t was never the i n t en t i o n e v e n n o w p e o p l e a s k me, why did you want to give eTV a subsidy? There is no such thing. It is an absurd surrealistic claim. CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Ja. And I subsequently met eTV after the facilitation process e n d e d a n d i t i s recorded in t h e mi n u t e s M s Norman, I met each of them i n d i v i d u a l , a s a p o l i t i c i a n n o w t o s t r i k e a p o l i t i c a l d e a l s i n c e th e ob ject iv e 10 f ac il it at i on pro c e s s . I m e t M r S h e i k a n d M r G o l d i n g a n d I s a i d t o t h e m I d o n o t k n o w w h y y o u g u y s a r e c l a i m i n g a v i c t o r y. Th is is n ot a b o u t y o u . You are fat c ats too of a s maller nature. It is about the new emerging African entrepreneurs . Five o f wh o m w ere a bo u t to be i s s u e d l i c e n c e s i n I CAS A . C ha irpe rs on I have e xplain ed to Mr Be kker, I can n o t t a ke t h e b u d g e t a n d u s e d i t a s m y p e r s on a l m o n e y b o x a n d g i v e i t t o , b e c a u s e I h a p p e n e d t o b u m p , M r S h e i k w a s a c o m r a d e i n t h e 8 0 ’s , w h y m u s t I a p o l o g i z e ? H e w o r k e d v e r y h a r d . He was part of the liberation movement a s y o u k n o w s o w e l l . N o w, I m e a n I h a r d l y h a d a n y t h i n g t o d o w ith him, h e i s i n , I am in M s und uz i, Pie te rma ritzb urg. He is in eThe kwin i, Du rban . 20 We served in the same structure lik e 6 0 0 th e ot he r act ivist s i n t h a t structure. I have never met him since 1994 except fleetingly once at the airport. CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRI M : Yes . And firstly, it was very racist Chairperson, I mean I got a t hi ck s k in , w e are a h ighly racia lized s o c i e t y. S o , f i r s t t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e Page 163 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 in SABC obviously and MultiChoice saying aha, you see Carrim is a g r e e i n g t o i t b e c a u s e h e i s b u d d y-b u d d y wi t h Yun i s S h e i k . M a y b e y o u c a n s p e a k t o Yu n i s S h e i k . I w o u l d n o t q u a l i f y i t , a s a c o m r a d e , h u n d r e d s o f c o m r a de s . S e c o n d l y t h e n t h e y s a i d n o, n o , y o u s e e Yu n u s h a s g o t t h e s a m e n a m e a s Yu n i s . I c o v e r e d t h a t i n m y r e s p o n s e a l r e a d y. T h e n t h e y said no, b ec a u s e they Indians, oh please, I am a Marxist, unapologetically so Chairperson, he does not belong to the same school. Even in the NIC we belo n g e d t o t w o d i ff e r e n t s c h o o l s r i g h t . Then they s a i d n o – n o C a r r i m i s n o t g o i n g w i t h S h e i k h e i s g o i n g w i t h M a r ce l 10 G o l d i n g , b e c a u s e y o u s e e M a r c e l G o l d i n g w a s a workerist , a nd Ca rrim i s a l e f t p o w e r m a n . So r r y I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t i s t h e r i g h t w o r d , o h m a n please there is no such thing. So, when they lost all of that, you know what they then did? They said ah do y o u s ee ? I t i s h i s a d v i s o r s . N o w t hey o bv io us l y p l ay i n g the race ca rd aga in. Ad viso rs wh a t th e y d id n o t re a l i s e w a s S e t u m o M o h a p i , l e t m e repeat Chairperson, brilliant CEO of Sentech. The most influential person on me, apart from Government p o l i c y a n d ANC p ol i c y w a s S e t u m o w h o w r i t e s n o t e s t h a t a r e s i m p l e a n d a j o u r n a l i s t l i k e m e c a n c o n v e r t w i t h l i t t l e e d i t i n g . M r R o y K r u g e r, M r D a v i d Nid ri, right, was a long -te rm act ivist in th e move me nt, rig ht? 20 And th e Wa n g a G l a n g a m a n d l a a n d R o s y, t h e y w e r e t h e Te am Ch a i rperson. CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Okay no that is fine. And then I thanked them again for their exce l l e n t w o r k . CHAIRPERSON : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r C a r r i m . T h a n k y o u f o r c o m i n g t o gi v e ev iden c e an d to sh are w ha t you kno w a bo ut t his issu e o f d i g i t a l m i g r a t i o n d u r i n g y o u r t e r m a s M i n i s t e r. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g Page 164 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 …(intervenes). M R CARRIM : Si r, I d o n o t w a n t t o b e r u d e b u t . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . I f t hos e e -m a i l s a r e a u t h e n t i c a t e d a n d I h a v e r e a d t h e m , a n d i f I h a d o n l y h a d ac c e s s t o t h e m , m y a ff i d a v i t n o t s p e n d m e h o u r s a n d hours digging. It is there. CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . I am w ill ing if yo u so ne e d m e , i t i s y o u r d e c i s i o n t o c o m e b a c k a n d g i v e s o m e o f t h e p o l i t i c s o f t h o s e e-m a i l s a n d I c a n f i l l i n t h e 10 e v e n t s t ha t a r e m a k i n g m o r e s e n s e t o m e n o w C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON : M R CARRIM : Yes . I f onl y I h a d t h o s e e-m a i l s , a n d M r N i dri has to apologise t o m e f or say i ng ah man Yu nus th ere w as n oth ing t h e re bu t it wa s t h e r e f or 5 y e ars , I onl y sa w it on Frid ay, if yo u n e e d m e , I a m w i l l i n g . T h a n k you. CHAIRPERSON : Yes , no thank y ou v ery muc h, the L e g a l Te a m h e a r s what you say. Once t h e y h a v e b e e n a u t h e n t i c a t e d , I a m s u r e t h e y w i l l b e i n t o u c h w i t h y o u b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e n o w e x c u s e d . ADV THA ND I NORMA N SC: 20 Mkobo is present. Th an k yo u C ha ir. Th e ne xt wit ness, M s T h e o n l y c h a l l e n g e i s th at o ne of th e imp licate d p e rs o n s b y h e r i n h e r s t a t e m e n t M r Ti a a n O l i v i e r h a s w r i t t e n t o t h e Commission yesterday challenging some of the minutes tha t h a ve b een g i v e n t o him . H e i s c h alle ngin g t h at th o se min u te s a re n ot accur at e. I h a v e n o t h a d a n o p p o r t u n i t y to d ea l w it h tho se a sp e c t s w i t h M s M k o b o b u t we have arranged that she would go through them overnight. With your Page 165 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 l e a v e C h a i r m a y s h e b e a l lo we d t o t e s t i f y t o mo r r o w m o r n i n g . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: But depending what the Chai r says, we can continue with her evidence and then we can do the authentication of the m i n u t e s l a t e r, b e c a u s e t h e o n e s t h a t y o u h a v e r e c e i v e d f r o m t h e SABC h a v e b e e n a u th e n t i c a t e d b y t h e – b y M s Bhy, yes, to save time maybe we c o u l d …(intervenes). CHAIRPER SON : How many minutes are a ff e c t e d by Mr O l i v i e r ’s challenge? 10 ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Th at is th e d i ff i c u l t y C h a i r, h e h a s n o t – we wrote back to him, and we said to h i m p l e a s e i d e n t i f y t h o s e t h a t y o u b e l i e v e , y o u s a y a r e n o t a c c u r a t e . A n d h e si m p l y i n h i s r e s p o n s e i n w h i c h we got, he simply goes and makes a very broad general statement, so m a y b e w e co u l d p r o c e e d a n d d e a l w i th t h a t l a t e r ? CHAIRPERSON : Well, if M s M k o b o b e l i e v e s t h a t t h e y a r e a c c u r a t e ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON : Yes . Th en w e l l i t j u s t d e p e n d s h o w m u c h i s i n v o l v e d b e c a u s e i f i t i s m i n u t e s o f o n e m e e t i n g t h a t are something like 5 pag e s , y o u k n o w, i t i s o n e t h i n g , b u t i f i t i s m i n u t e s o f a n u mb e r o f m e e t i n g s i t 20 might be, it might require more time. ADV THA ND I NOR M A N SC: CHAIRPERSON : Yes . I am in y our hands Chair. Th e s i tu a tion to morro w, h ow do w e st an d t o mo r row? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: We have arranged Chair with the stream – t h e l a w e n f o rc e m e n t s t r e a m , t h a t t h e y m u s t h a v e a w i t n e s s r e a d y f o r t omor ro w but I do n o t t h i n k w e w i l l b e e v e n t w o h o u r s w i t h M s M k o b o Page 166 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 because most of the ground has been covered by the evidence of Mr Carrim a n d a s y o u m i g h t h a v e n o t i c e C h a i r, M s M k o b o d o e s h a v e a c o nf irm at ory a ff id av it at t a che d t o Mr C arrim ’s e vid e nce . So s h e w i l l s i m pl y d e a l w i t h v e r y f e w m a t t e r s t h a t o n l y s h e w o u l d k n o w a b o u t a n d – a n d t h a t s h o u l d n o t , i f w e s t a r t a t 1 0 : 0 0 I b e lie v e t h a t b y t e a t i m e w e s h o u l d b e d o n e w i t h h e r. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, a n d t h e n t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t w o r k s t r e a m h a s g o t h o w m a n y w it nes s es ? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: 10 Th ey h a ve in dica ted t hat the y have thre e t hi s week Ch ai r. CHAIRPERSON : But that is thi s w e e k , b u t f o r t o m o r r o w ? ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Fo r to mo rro w I kno w th a t th ey h ave one p e r s o n , t h a t N i c h o l s o n h a d a d v i se d m e t h a t , A dv o c a t e N i c h o l s o n a d v i s e d me that that witness is going to be a long issue, I think the one did not f i n i s h o n t h e l a s t o c ca s i o n . CHAIRPERSON : Yes , j a . ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: I ha ve f org o t te n th e n a me o f t h e w itn es s. He is going to finish t hat witne ss, b u t h e b e l i e v e s t h a t CHAIRPERSON : 20 J a. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: He believes that he could take a while, b u t I c o u l d v e r i f y t hos e f ac ts . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, n o t h a t i s f i n e . O k a y s o , y o u w ere suggesting t hat may be we a dj o urn f or t he d ay and th e n y o u c a n a tte nd t o th e issu e o f t hes e and s o on . ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: Queries, yes thank you. Page 167 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 CHAIRPERSON : O k a y l e t u s d o t h at a nd t he n to morro w we w ill resum e a t 1 0 : 0 0. ADV THA ND I NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON : We adjourn. ADV THA ND I NORMA N SC: REGISTRAR : Th an k yo u Ch a ir. Th an k yo u. All rise. I NQ UI RY AD JOU RN S TO 26 FEB RU A RY 20 2 0 10 20 Page 168 of 169 25 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 218 TRANSCRIBER’S CERTIFICATE FOR COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG DATE HELD : 2020-02-25 DAY: : 218 TRANSCRIBERS : B KLINE; M NETTA; D STANIFORTH; B DODD; D BONTHUYS Audio’s are typed verbatim, as far as audible/possible Page 169 of 169