C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

2 5 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 4 0

20

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 5 J U LY 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

morning

Ms

Butheleze,

good

morning

e v e r y b o d y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : G o o d m o r n i n g D C J .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s w e a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D C J
CHAIRPERSON: Let us start.
10

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

D C J o u r w i t n e s s t o d a y is M r D o c t o r

Radebe.

H e i s a f o r m e r D A c o u n c i ll o r f o r P h u m e l e l e M u n i c i p a l it y in

Vr e d e .

H is

e v id e n c e

d e a ls

with

th e

a c q u is i t i o n

of

Phumelele

M u n i c i p a li t y l a n d b y th e E s t i n a D a ir y P r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M a y I a s k t h a t t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . P le a s e a d m i n is te r t h e o a th o f a ff ir m a t io n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : M y n a m e i s A l b e r t D o c t o r R a d e b e .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ?

Page 2 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
REGISTRAR:

T h e w h o le tr u th a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u th if s o p l e a s e

r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : S o h e lp m e G o d .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir M r R a d e b e ’s b u n d le is m a r k e d H H 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fi l e c o n t a i n i n g th e s t a t e m e n t b y Mr A l b e r t D o c t o r
10

R a d e b e w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t H H 6 .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Thank you.

Mr Radebe would you please

t u r n in t o E x h i b i t H H 6 p a g e 1 t o p a g e 6 .

D o y o u c o n f ir m th a t is t h e

s t a te m e n t th a t y o u m a d e fo r t h e c o m m is s i o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s I d o .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

W o u l d y o u p l e a s e b r i n g t h e m ic r o p h o n e a

li t tl e b it c lo s e r t o y o u . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e s ig n a tu r e th a t a p p e a r s o n
p a g e 6 o f t h is d o c u m e n t , d o y o u c o n fi r m th a t is y o u r s ig n a t u r e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s i t is m y s i g n a t u r e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

Thank you Mr Radebe.

Mr R a d e b e w o u l d

y o u p le a s e t e ll u s w h e r e d o y o u l iv e a n d w h a t d o y o u d o f o r a liv i n g ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : W e ll I li v e i n Vr e d e I a m a n e m e r g i n g
f a r m e r a r o u n d t h e a r e a o f Vr e d e t h a t i s w h e r e I f a r m .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I:

Thank you.

A n d te ll u s a b o u t y o u r

in v o lv e m e n t w i t h th e m u n i c i p a li t y i n 2 0 1 2 ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : W e l l I w a s a s i tt i n g c o u n c i ll o r i n 2 0 1 2

Page 3 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
in th e P h u m e l e le M u n i c i p a l it y w h i c h is m a d e u p o f t h r e e u n i t s . Vr e d e ,
Memel and Warden.
ADV

ZI N H L E

B U TH E L E Z I :

And

which

o r g a n is a ti o n

were

you

r e p r e s e n ti n g i n th e c o u n c il ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

I w a s r e p r e s e n ti n g th e D e m o c r a ti c

A ll i a n c e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s .

In your statement you tell us about

t h e e v e n t th a t t o o k p l a c e o n t h e 1 9 J u n e o f 2 0 1 2 d u r i n g a c o u n c il
m e e ti n g . W o u l d y o u p le a s e e l a b o r a t e o n w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th a t d a y ?
10

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a n

o r d i n a r y c o u n c il m e e ti n g a t a r o u n d in t h e m o r n in g . Th e n t h e t h e n M E C
f o r A g r ic u l t u r e M r M o s e b e n z i Zw a n e c a m e w i th h is c r e w fr o m th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e a n d t h e y h a v e a d i s c u s s io n w it h t h e r u l in g
p a r t y w h i c h i s t h e A N C . T h a t i s w h e r e th e y a s k u s a s a D A to d e l a y t h e
c o u n c i l w i th t w o h o u r s s o th a t th e y c a n r e - r e p r e s e n t u s w i th t h e
p r o p o s a l fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e t o m a y b e t o – f o r t h e
c o u n c i l t o l e a s e t h e m la n d o f o r fo r a g r i c u l t u r a l p u r p o s e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d w h o a c c o m p a n ie d Mr Zw a n e fr o m t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e ?
20

M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll i t w a s s o m a n y p e o p le b u t th e

o n e w h o m I r e m e m b e r w h o d i d th e r e p r e s e n ta t io n P e te r Th a b e t h e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n w a s h e h o ld in g a t t h e

ti m e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : H e w a s t h e H O D i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d th e n o t h e r th a n Mr T h a b e t h e w a s th e r e
a n y o t h e r o ff ic i a l fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t y o u r e m e m b e r ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s , y e s t h e r e w e r e o th e r o ff ic ia ls .

T h a t o n e th e y s a y is t h e m a n a g e r b u t I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h e ir n a m e s
b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t c o m e w it h a n y d o c u m e n ts in w r i ti n g t h e y ju s t
p r e s e n t e d u s w i t h th e v e r b a l – w it h th e o r a l w o r k .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s th e n t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d th e n d u r in g
t h is p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: O h th a t is w h e n w e – M r Z w a n e fir s t
10

s p o k e a n d to ld u s t h a t t h e y h a v e e a r m a r k e d Vr e d e to – t o m a y b e t o
e s t a b li s h a d a ir y fa r m w h e r e b y t h e r e w i ll b e a m il k p r o c e s s i n g p la n t .
S o t h e y w e r e in t h e c o u n c i l t o a s k th e c o u n c i l t o g iv e t h e m p e r m is s i o n
t o l e a s e t h a t l a n d w h ic h is K r y n a a u w s lu s t in Vr e d e . T h e n t h e r e a f t e r M r
T h a b e th e c a m e w i th t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n b u t h e n e v e r g a v e u s a n y
w r i t t e n d o c u m e n ts h e w a s j u s t d o in g i t o r a l ly. T h a t is w h e n t h e y s a id
t h e r e i s a c o m p a n y w h ic h is c a ll e d Es t in a w h o w i ll w o r k i n p a r t n e r s h i p
w i t h a c e r ta i n c o m p a n y i n E n g li s h w h ic h is th e b i g c o m p a n y m ilk
p r o c e s s in g p l a n t in E n g l a n d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D id t h e y s a y i n E n g l a n d ?

20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:
c o m p a n y is P a r a s .

I mean in India.

The name of the

Th e n t h e y – t h e y t o l d u s a b o u t t h e fi g u r e s o f t h e

m o n e y th a t w il l b e i n je c t e d i n t h e p r o je c t.
A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d d id t h e y t e l l y o u w h e r e w a s t h e –
w h a t i s i t t h a t t h e y w e r e r e q u e s t in g fr o m t h e c o u n c il ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

T h e y r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e c o u n c il

Page 5 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
s h o u l d l e a s e t h e a g r ic u l t u r a l la n d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e s o
t h a t th e D e p a r t m e n t c a n e s t a b lis h t h a t d a ir y p l a n t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h e r e i s t h is la n d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e f a r m ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s t h e a g r i c u l t u r a l l a n d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h e a g r ic u lt u r a l l a n d i s t h e l a n d

a r o u n d t h e a r e a o f Vr e d e . I t h i n k i t w a s – it i s a b i g a g r i c u l tu r a l l a n d
w h ic h w a s u s e d b y t h e m u n ic i p a li ty b e fo r e . A n d b y th a t ti m e I t h i n k i n
2 0 11 a r o u n d A u g u s t t h e c o u n c il h a s j u s t t a k e n a r e s o l u t i o n t o l e a s e th a t
10

la n d t o t h e s u r r o u n d in g c o m m e r c i a l f a r m e r s . Th a t l a n d I t h i n k i t is – i t
is 4 4 0 0 h e c ta r e s b i g . T h e n w h e n t h e y r e p r e s e n t e d th is s to r y o f th e ir s
in t h e c o u n c i l t h a t l a n d w a s a lr e a d y r e n te d b y th e l o c a l f a r m e r s .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d h o w m u c h w a s th e m u n ic ip a l i ty m a k in g
o u t – m a k in g fr o m th a t l a n d o n m o n t h l y o r a n n u a ll y ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll y o u u s u a ll y – in a g r ic u l t u r a l

p o i n t o f v i e w y o u u s u a l ly c h a r g e p e r a n n u m – a h e c t a r e p e r a n n u m .
A n d b y t h a t t i m e th e – t h e e q u iv a le n t r a t e I t h i n k i t w a s c lo s e t o a
m il li o n b e c a u s e i f y o u – i f y o u l e a s e a n a g r ic u l t u r a l l a n d y o u j u s t – y o u
c h e c k fi r s t w h a t is t h e – i s t h e v a l u e o f t h e h e c t a r e t h e n p l u s o r m i n u s
20

1 0 % o f t h e v a l u e o f th e h e c t a r e th a t is t h e r e n t a l a m o u n t p e r a n n u m .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s d i d t h e y e x p la i n w h o o r h o w t h e y

id e n t i fy th is l a n d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : N o t a t a l l .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e – t h is r e q u e s t o r t h e s e ty p e o f r e q u e s t s
h o w a r e t h e y u s u a l ly t a b l e d a t t h e c o u n c i l ? W il l s o m e o n e c o m e i n a n d

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
m a k e a n o r a l p r e s e n ta t io n o r i s t h e r e a f o r m a l p r o c e s s th a t n e e d s to b e
f o ll o w e d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll t h e p r o c e d u r e w a s t h e y s h o u ld

h a v e w r i t te n a l e t te r to t h e m u n ic i p a li t y s o t h a t th e s p e a k e r a n d
m u n i c i p a l m a n a g e r t h e y c a n d is c u s s t h e m a t t e r fir s t w it h t h e m a y o r s
a n d i f w e d o h a v e a c o u n c i l m e e t in g t h a t t h i n g – t h e ir i t e m c a n b e
documented so that it can be on the record.

A s t h i s o n e o n th e 1 9 t h

y o u c a n n o t fi n d it i n t h e r e c o r d o f t h e m u n ic i p a li ty b e c a u s e t h e y c o m e
ju s t b e f o r e th e c o u n c i l m e e t in g a n d h ij a c k e d t h e c o u n c il m e e ti n g .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d i t w a s n o t o n t h e a g e n d a f o r th a t d a y ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : N o n o t a t a ll .
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

H o w w e r e t h e y – w h a t is i t th a t t h e y w e r e

o ffe r i n g t o t h e c o u n c il in e x c h a n g e fo r t h i s la n d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: T h e y s a i d t h e y w il l – t h e y w il l p a y th e
c o u n c i l t h e m o n e y w h i c h th o s e c o m m e r c i a l f a r m e r s w e r e p a y i n g to th e
council.

T h e n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e w il l b u y t h e c o m m e r c i a l

f a r m e r s c o n tr a c t o u t a n d c o m p e n s a t e t h e m s o t h a t t h e y c a n o p e r a t e t h e
d a ir y o n t h e f a r m .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

D o y o u k n o w h o w m u c h t i m e w a s s ti ll

o u t s t a n d i n g b e f o r e t h e le a s e t h a t t h e c o u n c il h a d w i t h th e f a r m e r s
e x p ir e d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

As t h i s c o n tr a c t – a s t h is m e e ti n g

t o o k p la c e o n th e 1 9 J u n e a t th e fa r m y o u u s u a ll y – t h e c o n tr a c t b e g i n s
on the 1st August.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

I t h i n k it w a s ju s t l e s s t h a n a y e a r –

a l m o s t a y e a r. T h e c o n tr a c t o f t h e c o m m e r c i a l fa r m e r s w a s le s s t h a n a
y e a r o ld . T h e y w e r e l e f t w i t h t w o a n d m a y b e t w o a n d t h r e e m o n th s o r
f o u r m o n t h s to …
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Oh

th e y

s t il l h a d a b o u t t w o y e a r s

r e m a in in g ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: J a t h e y s t il l h a v e t o h a v e m o r e t h a n
t w o y e a r s in t h e ir c o n t r a c t s .
A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
10

Ye s a n d w h o w a s g o i n g t o b u y o u t t h e

c o m m e r c ia l fa r m e r s th a t w e r e l e a s in g th e l a n d fr o m t h e m u n i c i p a l it y ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

To w h a t i t w a s r e p r e s e n te d i n t h e

c o u n c i l it w a s s a i d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e w il l – w i ll d o t h e
compensation and buy them out.
ADV

ZINHLE

p r e s e n t a ti o n ?

BUTHELEZI:

Ye s

and

you

said

who

made

the

I s i t M r Zw a n e o r w a s i t s o m e o n e e ls e fr o m t h e

D e p a r t m e n t?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: T h e b i g g e r – th e l a r g e p o r ti o n o f th e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s d o n e b y M r T h a b e t h e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. A n d w h a t e ls e d id t h e y te ll y o u w i t h
20

r e g a r d s to th e p r o j e c t t h a t t h e y w a n t e d to u s e t h e l a n d f o r o n t h a t d a y ?
Yo u d e a l w it h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it w h i c h is o n p a g e 2 .
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Th e y t o l d u s t h e f ig u r e s o f t h e m o n e y.
T h e y s a id t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l t u r e i s p r e p a r e d t o p a y 1 0 0 m il li o n
p e r a n n u m i n t h is p r o j e c t t il l i t g e t o ff t h e g r o u n d . T h e y s a i d t h e p i lo t
p r o j e c t w i ll b e t h r e e y e a r s . A n d i n a d d i ti o n o f th a t 3 0 0 m il li o n fo r t h a t

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
t h r e e y e a r s t h e y s a id th e n t h e y h a v e a l s o e a r m a r k e d 1 0 0 p e o p l e w h o
w i ll b e b e n e f ic ia r i e s in t h e B E E b e n e fi c i a r y m o d e l i n t h a t d a ir y. T h e n
t h o s e p e o p le w ill b e g iv e n 1 0 0 m il li o n a g a in w h ic h m a k e s i t 4 0 0 m i ll io n
in a l l. T h e n – w h ic h m e a n s – w h ic h m e a n …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y h o w w e r e t h e y g o in g to b e g iv e n t h is
1 0 0 m il li o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: T h e y s a id t h e y – o n e b e n e fi c i a r y w il l
b e g i v e n 1 m il li o n s o t h a t th e y c a n – t h e y c a n b u y c a t t le .

Th a t t h e

d a ir y c a t tl e a n d b r i n g t h e m i n t o t h e d a ir y.
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e n t h e y s a id E s ti n a w il l …
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d s o r r y h o w d o e s i t a d d u p t o 4 0 0 m i ll i o n
then?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h e y s a id th e

D e p a r t m e n t h a s p l a n n e d t o i n j e c t 3 0 0 f o r t h e p r o j e c t . T h e n i n e x tr a t h e
D e p a r t m e n t w i ll g iv e b e n e fic i a r i e s 1 0 0 m i ll io n t h a t is w h a t m a k e s it 4 0 0
m il li o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s . T h e n t h e y a ls o s a id E s t i n a w il l
20

c o m e w i t h h a lf a m il li o n – w i ll c o m e w i t h 5 0 0 m i ll io n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : W h ic h w ill b e – w h ic h w i ll b e i n j e c t e d
b y th e – b y t h a t b i g c o m p a n y f r o m I n d i a w h ic h is P a r a s .

They said

P a r a s w il l g iv e E s ti n a t h a t 5 0 0 m il li o n . T h e n a l l i n a l l w h e n w e w o r k e d
t h is o u t th e n i t w a s c lo s e to a b il li o n . I f y o u m a y b e y o u a d d u p th e VAT

Page 9 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
b y th a t ti m e . It w a s v e r y m u c h c l o s e t o a b i ll io n .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s a n d h o w w a s t h i s r e c e i v e d b y th e

c o u n c i l?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

W e l l I – I a m t h e – i n t h e c o u n c il I

w a s t h e o n ly p e r s o n w h o i s c l u e d u p w i t h t h e a g r ic u l t u r e b e c a u s e I
h a v e b e e n f a r m i n g s in c e 2 0 0 3 .

Th e c o u n c i l w e r e s o e x c it e d b e c a u s e

t h e f ig u r e s t h a t j u s t m a k e p e o p l e to b e e x c it e d b u t w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e
b i g g e r p ic t u r e y o u c o u l d s e e th a t fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g t h is t h in g w a s –
w a s a li t t le b i t li k e a s c a m b e c a u s e th e y c a m e in th e c o u n c il w i t h n o
10

f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y, n o b u s i n e s s p l a n , n o b u d g e t .

Th e y j u s t – t h e y ju s t

t h r o w i n f ig u r e s w i th o u t g i v i n g d o c u m e n t a t io n o n h o w th e s e f i g u r e s w i ll
b e g e n e r a te d o r w il l b e b r o u g h t i n t o …
ADV

Z IN H L E

BUTHELEZI:

Did

you

ask

for

the

s u p p o r t in g

d o c u m e n t a ti o n o r d i d a n y o n e i n t h e c o u n c il a s k f o r t h a t d o c u m e n ta t io n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : A s th e y h i ja c k e d th e c o u n c il m e e t in g
ju s t a f te r t h e y l e f t t h e – t h e f ir s t i t e m i n t h e – i n th e c o u n c i l w a s t h e
c o u n c i l o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :
20

As y o u c a n – t h e n t h a t is w h e n w e

a s k e d th e q u e s ti o n n o w a m o n g o u r s e l v e s a n d I w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s
a s k in g th o s e q u e s ti o n s a n d s a y H o n o u r a b l e C o u n c il lo r s t h i s t h i n g if w e
d o n o t t h in k o u t s i d e t h e b o x th e n w e w i ll g e t in t o tr o u b l e if w e – w e
a p p r o v e d t h is c e r t a i n p r o j e c t . B e c a u s e it d id n o t s o u n d l ik e r e a l ly. It
lo o k e d lik e a d r e a m b u t i f y o u a r e c l u e d u p t h e n y o u c o u l d s e e th a t i t
was a scam.

Page 10 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Why do you say it is a scam? Why did you
– h o w d id y o u r e a c h t h a t c o n c lu s i o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : In th e s a m e c o u n c il m e e t in g w h e n w e
d is c u s s e d t h e m a t te r I e v e n a s k e d t h e m t h a t h o w a r e t h e y g o in g t o
id e n t i fy th o s e b e n e fic i a r i e s ?

T h e n th e c r it e r ia w a s n o t c le a r.

I even

w a r n e d t h e m . I s a id l e t u s n o t m a k e t h i s t h i n g t o b e a p a y c h e q u e f o r
m a y b e f o r p a r t y m e m b e r s b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e t i m e o n th e g r o u n d t h e
p a r t y m e m b e r s m o r e e s p e c ia ll y i f t h e r e is a r u l in g p a r t y, p a r ty m e m b e r s
b e li e v e th a t th i n g h a s b e e n p la n te d i n t h e – i n t o t h e ir m in d s t h a t e a c h
10

a n d e v e r y t h i n g w h ic h c o m e s fr o m t h e g o v e r n m e n t is m e a n t fo r t h e m n o t
f o r t h e c o m m u n it y a t la r g e .

I t is m e a n t f o r c e r t a i n i n d iv id u a l s t h a t is

w h e r e w e d i s c u s s e d th is m a t t e r a n d s a y t h e y m u s t t a b l e – t h e y m u s t
bring

forward

b e n e fic i a r i e s .

th e

c r i t e r ia

in

which

they

are

going

to

id e n t i fy

T h e n I w a s – I r e m e m b e r th e n t h e y s a i d I a m a g a i n s t

d e v e l o p m e n t b e c a u s e t h is t h i n g i s g o i n g t o d e v e l o p Vr e d e a n d i t is
g o i n g t o b e n e f it t h e p e o p le o f P h u m e l e l e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s d o y o u k n o w t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d t o

t h is r e q u e s t e v e n t u a lly ? W a s t h e r e a d e c i s io n th a t w a s ta k e n a f t e r y o u
d e li b e r a t e d a s c o u n c il m e m b e r s ?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

J u s t a f t e r t h a t t h e n i n t h e fo ll o w i n g

c o u n c i l m e e t in g th e n t h a t is w h e n t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n w i t h r e g a r d s t o
t h is E s t in a D a ir y s c a m a p p e a r e d i n t h e c o u n c il r e c o r d s .

T h e n th a t is

w h e r e w e – w e – t h e c o u n c il to o k a d e c i s io n t h a t t h e y w i ll l e a s e th e
la n d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Wa s t h is a u n a n i m o u s d e c is io n ?

Page 11 of 77

Were

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
t h e r e a n y o p p o s i ti o n t o t h is p a r tic u la r r e s o lu ti o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: W e l l w e o p p o s e d t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d
it w a s a u n a n i m o u s d e c is i o n b e c a u s e a s w e w e r e w e w e r e o n ly t h r e e
c o u n c i ll o r s fr o m t h e o p p o s it i o n t h e n th e A N C c o u n c il lo r s w e r e I t h i n k
w e r e 1 3 . A ll in a l l w e w e r e 1 5 .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o t h e r e w e r e 1 2 ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e r e w e r e 1 2 y e s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o t h e o p p o s i t io n d id n o t o p p o s e t h i s

request?
10

M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll I d o r e p r e s e n t my s i d e o f t h e

s t o r y fr o m [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Yo u r c o n c e r n s ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : B u t I r e p r e s e n t e d i t p e r s o n a ll y in m y
p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty a s th e p e r s o n w h o k n o w – w h o k n o w s a b o u t
a g r ic u lt u r e . A s I a m s a y in g a l l 1 4 – a ll 1 4 c o u n c i ll o r s s i t ti n g c o u n c i ll o r s
b y th e n w e r e n o t c lu e d u p w i t h a g r ic u l t u r e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . O n p a r a g r a p h 9 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u
20

d e a l w i t h th e d e c l i n e i n d a ir y f a r m i n g i n t h e a r e a . C o u l d y o u j u s t t a k e
u s to t h a t o r e l a b o r a t e o n t h a t?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ar o u n d t h e a r e a o f P h u m e l e l e w h e n

w e g r e w u p u n ti l l a te 9 0 ’s w e h a d m o r e t h a n 3 0 d a ir y f a r m e r s a r o u n d
that area and.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .

Page 12 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

As a result when they represented

t h is p r o p o s a l o f t h e ir s w e h a d o n l y t h r e e d a ir y fa r m e r s a r o u n d th e a r e a
of Phumelele.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n f o r t h is s ig n i f ic a n t
d e c r e a s e in t h e n u m b e r o f d a ir y f a r m s ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a i r I t h i n k t h e – I b e li e v e t h a t t h e
r e a s o n e m a n a te d fr o m t h e fa r m g a t e .

W h e n t h o s e fa r m e r s w e r e

f a r m in g b y t h a t ti m e t h e m i lk p r o c e s s o r s u s e d to b u y m a y b e a l it r e
10

m a y b e t h e y w i ll p a y R 2 .0 0 p e r l i tr e fr o m t h e f a r m g a t e a n d b y t h a t ti m e
t h e n t h e c o s t o f f e e d i n g th o s e c a t t le – th o s e d a ir y f a r m s h a s e s c a la t e d
a s is w e l l k n o w n t h a t d a ir y c a t tl e n e e d i n t e n s iv e fe e d i n g . T h e y d e p e n d
on the feeding.

T h e y c a n n o t m a y b e b e d r iv i n g m o r e th a n 3 0 0 m e te r s

fr o m w h e r e t h e y a r e b e in g m il k e d .

S o w h e n – I t h i n k – I b e l ie v e t h a t

t h e f a r m e r s r e a li s e d th a t t h e y w e r e d o in g a l o s s w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h is
d a ir y – d a ir y b u s i n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u b e li e v e t h a t th e d e c l in e w a s d u e t o a n u m b e r
o f c h a ll e n g e s i n t h e d a ir y f a r m b u s in e s s ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s i n s id e t h e f a r m g a t e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m O k a y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . S o is t h e c o s t o f – t h e c o s t o f
f e e d fo r t h e s e – f o r t h e c o w s th a t w a s o n e o f t h e d r i v i n g f a c t o r s , i s t h a t
your evidence?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s t h a t is my e v id e n c e I p u t f o r w a r d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u .

A n d y o u a l s o t a lk a b o u t th e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
m il k p r o c e s s i n g p l a n ts a r o u n d Vr e d e w e r e t h e y m i lk p r o c e s s i n g p la n t i n
t h e a r e a o r c lo s e t o t h e a r e a o f Vr e d e ?
MR

ALBERT

D O C TO R

RADEBE:

Before

th e

d e c li n e

th e

m i lk

p r o c e s s in g p la n t w h ic h w a s – i t w a s i n S t a n d e r t o n . I t i s 5 0 k i l o m e tr e s
fr o m Vr e d e . A s a r e s u l t o f th is d e c li n e f r o m d a ir y fa r m e r s a r o u n d t h e
a r e a t h e n th e m il k p r o c e s s i n g p la n t w a s r e l o c a te d to H a r r i s m i th .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : A n d H a r r is m i t h i s p l u s o r m i n u s 11 0
k il o m e tr e s fr o m Vr e d e .
10

Then the people who were working in

S t a n d e r t o n w e r e a ls o – t h e e m p lo y e e s w e r e a ls o tr a n s f e r r e d t o
H a r r i s m it h t h a t is w h e r e t h e y – m o s t o f t h e m w o r k e v e n t h e o n e s w h o
w e r e r e s id in g i n Vr e d e .

T h e n th e o t h e r m ilk p r o c e s s in g p la n t is i n

Fr a n k fo r t a n d f r o m F r a n k f o r t t o Vr e d e i t is p l u s o r m i n u s 8 0 k il o m e tr e s .
I t h i n k w h a t m a d e t o r e l o c a t e t h a t mi lk p r o c e s s i n g p la n t is t h e d e c l i n e
o f t h o s e d a i r y m il k f a r m e r s a r o u n d t h e a r e a a s b y t h a t t i m e a s I s ta t e d
t h a t th e r e w e r e m o r e t h a n 3 0 .
1 0 0 c a t t le .

O n e fa r m e r w a s m il k i n g n o t le s s th a n

Th e n y o u c a n i m a g i n e t h e l i t r e s th a t t h e y w e r e s u p p ly in g

t h o s e m i lk p r o c e s s i n g p la n ts a r o u n d th o s e a r e a s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

Ye s .

W e r e y o u i n fo r m e d t h a t f o r th is

p r o j e c t t h e r e w a s a ls o a n in t e n t i o n to b u i ld a p r o c e s s in g p la n t d u r in g
t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e y s a id w o u l d – w e w e r e i n f o r m e d
t h a t i t w il l b e a d a i r y – th e y w i ll h a v e d a ir y m il k c a t tl e a n d a ls o u ti lis e
t h e la n d t h e r e a f t e r th e n a n d a b i g m il k p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w h ic h w i ll
s u p p ly S o u th A fr ic a .

Page 14 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : W o u l d t h a t t h e n n o t b e t o t h e a d v a n t a g e o f
t h e Vr e d e p e o p l e h a v i n g a p r o c e s s in g p l a n t n e a r b y ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

W e l l i f i t w a s d o n e p r o p e r ly a n d

m a y b e h a v e p e o p le w h o k n o w s h o w t o d o I t h i n k i t w a s g o i n g t o b e
f e a s i b l e b u t a s y o u c a n s e e t h e y n e v e r g a v e u s a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t
w e c a n g o t h r o u g h a n d s e e w h a t is th e ir p l a n w it h r e g a r d s to t h i s t h in g .
T h e n t h a t is w h a t m a d e u s n o t t o b e li e v e i t w a s g o in g t o b e p o s s i b l e f o r
it t o b e i n o p e r a ti o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s b u t – w h e n y o u s a y i t m a d e u s .
10

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

A s – w e l l w h e n w e d is c u s s e d –

u s u a ll y w h e n w e g o t o a c o u n c i l m e e ti n g w e d o h a v e s o m e – w e d o h o ld
a c a u c u s b u t w i t h r e g a r d s t o th is d a i r y t h i n g I w a s g iv e n t h e m a n d a t e t o
s p e a k a b o u t i t . T h a t is w h a t I t o l d m y c o ll e a g u e i n t h e c a u c u s t h a t t h i s
t h i n g is n o t g o i n g t o b e fe a s ib l e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e c o u n c il s m u n ic i p a l

m a n a g e r – Vr e d e m u n i c i p a l m a n a g e r w il l c o m e to t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d
s a y th is p r o j e c t w a s s u p p o r t e d e v e n b y s o m e o f t h e o p p o s i ti o n
20

c o u n c i ll o r s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll a s I s t a t e d t h a t I w a s th e o n e

w h o w a s s p e a k i n g a b o u t i t . B u t in o u r c a u c u s t h e n w e – I d o s t a n d u p
– I s t o o d u p a n d t e l l t h e m t h a t t h i s t h i n g is n o t g o i n g t o w o r k . B u t i n
t h e c o u n c il t h e n I w a s s p e a k in g a lo n e th e n I c a n n o t – w e ll I c a n n o t
s t a n d i n h is w a y a n d s a y m a y b e h e is w r o n g . H e m i g h t b e r i g h t . B u t I

Page 15 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
w a s s p e a k i n g fr o m t h e – t h e a g r i c u l tu r a l k n o w l e d g e w h ic h I h a d w it h
r e g a r d s t o th is d a ir y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 11 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p – y o u d e a l w i th th e r e l a t i o n s h i p t h a t Mr Z w a n e h a d w i th th e
M a y o r M r M o ta u n g c a n y o u j u s t e l a b o r a te o n t h a t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

Mr J o h n M o ta u n g w h o i s t h e

M u n i c i p a l M a y o r in t h e P h u m e le l e M u n ic i p a l it y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :
10

Ja he has been a Mayor for three

c o n s e c u tiv e t e r m s in t h a t m u n i c i p a l it y b e c a u s e h e h a s b e e n M a y o r f o r –
s in c e 2 0 0 4 . T h e y w e r e li k e b r o t h e r s w it h t h e M E C M r M o s e b e n z i
Zwane.

T h a t is w h y th e M a y o r e v e n i n t h e c o u n c i l th a t is h i m w h o

in s is t e d t h a t t h is p r o j e c t m u s t b e a p p r o v e d . I m e a n t h is l e a s e m u s t b e
a p p r o v e d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e .
A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : Ye s . A n d y o u a tt a c h t h e r e s o l u ti o n t h a t w a s
m a d e b y t h e c o u n c il .

I t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e C h a ir.

L o o k i n g a t t h is

r e s o l u ti o n t h e r e is n o w a y w h e r e i t i n d ic a t e s th a t t h e r e w a s o p p o s it i o n
fr o m

the

o p p o s it i o n

p a r ty.

In

fact

th is

r e s o l u ti o n

was

made

u n a n i m o u s ly b y a ll p a r t ie s o r b y a l l t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e c o u n c il . W h a t
20

d o y o u s a y to t h a t ?
CHAIRPERSON: Why do we not have a clearer copy?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : U m .
CHAIRPERSON:

I have been saying whenever there are going to be

a n n e x u r e s th e l e g a l t e a m m u s t p l e a s e tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t w e h a v e
got clearer pictures.

Page 16 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s e s p e c i a l ly p a g e 7 i t i s d i ff ic u l t e v e n f o r
m e r e a d C h a ir b u t …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I a m a s k i n g w h y d o w e n o t h a v e a c le a r e r

c o p y b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n s a y i n g th a t f o r q u i te s o m e ti m e . Th e le g a l
t e a m l o o k s a t t h e s ta t e m e n ts a n d a n n e x u r e s in a d v a n c e .

If t h e y s e e

t h a t a n p a r tic u la r a n n e x u r e i s n o t l e g i b l e t h e y s h o u l d tr y a n d a r r a n g e
for clearer copies.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I w i ll tr y C h a i r t o s e e i f w e c a n s t il l fi n d a
c le a r e r c o p y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h e r e a r e o t h e r w i t n e s s e s t h a t w i ll c o m e

a n d d e a l w it h th is is s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I a m j u s t g o i n g t o r e p e a t.

Members of the legal

t e a m m u s t p le a s e m a k e s u r e t h a t w e g e t t h e b e s t c o p i e s t h a t w e c a n
get.

Sometimes you cannot get a better copy what you have is what

you have.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e n I m u s t b e i n f o r m e d t h e n I k n o w. B u t i f I h a v e
n o t b e e n i n f o r m e d th a t a t t e m p ts h a v e b e e n m a d e t o tr y a n d g e t a
20

c le a r e r c o p y I w i ll t a k e i t t h a t n o a t t e m p ts w e r e m a d e .

So let us

p r o c e e d b u t a c l e a r e r c o p y s h o u l d b e o b t a i n e d i f p o s s ib le .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e w ill d o s o C h a ir. I b e li e v e t h a t t h e r e is
b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e s o m e o t h e r w it n e s s e s t h a t w i ll d e a l w i th t h is is s u e .
T h e y m i g h t p r o v i d e u s w i th a m o r e l e g i b l e c o p y th a n t h e o n e t h a t w e
c u r r e n tly h a v e .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h e n w e m u s t – i f t h e r e is a c l e a r e r c o p y y o u
m u s t r e p l a c e th is o n e e v e n in t h is s t a t e m e n t w it h a c l e a r e r c o p y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll – I w i ll d o s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e m u s t n o t h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e th e r e is a c l e a r e r
c o p y i n o t h e r b u n d l e s b u t a n il le g ib le c o p y in s o m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir. T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . W e m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: Ye s . M r R a d a b e I w a s s a y i n g th a t lo o k in g
a t t h i s r e s o lu t io n th a t w a s t a k e n o n t h e 1 9 J u n e i t s e e m s a s i f t h i s
10

d e c is i o n to l e a s e t h e l a n d to Es t in a w a s a u n a n i m o u s d e c i s i o n o f th e
council. Do you have any comment?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

M a y b e i f I c a n fi r s tl y g iv e th e

b a c k g r o u n d w i th r e g a r d s t o th is r e s o l u ti o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : N o t o n l y t h is r e s o l u ti o n . T h e M a y o r
t o o k a d e c is io n in t h a t m u n ic i p a li ty t h a t a n y t h i n g w h ic h I s p e a k i n t h e
c o u n c i l m u s t n o t b e w r i tt e n d o w n .

A n d I t h in k e v e n th e m u n ic ip a l

m a n a g e r w h e n h e c o m e s h e r e t h e n w e a s k h i m I w a s t h e o n ly c o u n c il lo r
in t h e w h o l e c o u n c i l s i t ti n g w h o w a s p a r ti c ip a ti n g in n o t l e s s th a n 8 0 %
20

o f t h e i t e m s w h ic h w e r e b r o u g h t i n to t h e c o u n c il m e e t in g . A n d y o u a s k
y o u r s e l f w h y s u c h a p e r s o n is n o t m a y b e n o te d w h e n h e i s e v e n d e a l in g
w i t h s u c h s e r i o u s t h i n g s . W e e v e n a s k e d t h e c o u n c i l th a t t h e y s h o u l d
r e c o r d th e m e e ti n g s w i t h a t a p e r e c o r d e r b u t w e – w e u s u a ll y h a v e t o
h a v e a s tr u g g le e a c h a n d e v e r y c o u n c il m e e ti n g to – j u s t t o h a v e a t a p e
r e c o r d e r.

E a c h a n d e v e r y t i m e th e y w ill l e a v e t h a t t a p e r e c o r d e r

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
b e h in d . T h e n w e w il l h a v e t o s a y t h e m e e ti n g m u s t n o t c o n ti n u e b e fo r e
w e h a v e a t a p e r e c o r d e r. A s w e h a v e r e c o g n is e d th a t m o s t i m p o r t a n t
is s u e s a r e n o t r e c o r d e d . W h e n i t c o m e s t o th is o n e o f t h i s d a i r y s c a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h a t is w h y w e i n s is t e d a l o t t h a t a

t a p e r e c o r d e r m u s t b e t h e r e b u t I a m n o t s u r p r is e d t h a t m y n a m e d o e s
n o t a p p e a r h e r e b u t o n t h e t a p e r e c o r d e r s t h a t is w h e n w e m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h i s th i n g w a s r e c o r d e d in t h e t a p e r e c o r d e r s o t h a t w e c a n m a k e
r e fe r e n c e b e c a u s e w e k n o w th a t t h i s t h i n g w a s n o t g o i n g to l a s t e v e n
10

m o r e . I k n o w – I k n e w it w a s n o t g o in g t o l a s t e v e n fo r f iv e y e a r s .
T h a t is w h y I i n s i s te d th a t i t m u s t b e r e c o r d e d .

If t h e y c a n

b r i n g th e ta p e r e c o r d e r y o u c a n s e e h o w – h o w w e d e li b e r a te d o n t h i s
m a t t e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e d e b a t e s o r d i s c u s s io n s

w e r e m e c h a n ic a l ly r e c o r d e d w h e n t h e d i s c u s s i o n s h a p p e n e d o r y o u d o
not know?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a ir m o r e e s p e c i a l ly w it h r e g a r d s t o
t h is – t o th is d a ir y s c a m .
20

They were recorded.

We made sure that

b e f o r e w e s t a r t th e ta p e r e c o r d e r w a s w o r k in g a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

A n d t h e M u n ic i p a l M a n a g e r i s t h e

p e r s o n w h o u s u a l ly is s u p p o s e d t o a d v is e t h e c o u n c il w i t h th e l e g a l
t h i n g s i n s id e th e c o u n c il . H e a l s o in s i s t e d th a t i t s h o u ld b e r e c o r d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

I a m d e a d s u r e it w a s r e c o r d e d .

M a y b e i t c a n b e d e s tr o y e d b u t i t w a s r e c o r d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a i r w e w i ll f o ll o w u p w it h t h e M u n ic i p a l

M a n a g e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . T h e n o n – o n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 y o u
s p e a k o f th e e v e n ts th a t fo ll o w e d th is r e s o l u ti o n .

Do you know if the

le a s e b e t w e e n Es t in a a n d th e – P h u m e l e l a M u n i c i p a li ty w a s c o n c l u d e d ?
10

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir it is j u s t t h a t s o m e o th e r

d o c u m e n ts t h e n - w e c a n n o t c o n n e c t w it h t h e m . I t h i n k m a y b e t h e y a r e
m is s i n g b u t t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e a g r e e d i n t h e c o u n c il i s t h a t t h e
la n d w a s – th e – t h e O ffi c e o f t h e Pr e m i e r s e n t a l e a s e c o n tr a c t t o th e
c o u n c i l s o th a t th e c o u n c i l c a n a p p r o v e i t t h a t t h e c o u n c il m u s t le a s e
t h e la n d .
T h e y s a id t h e c o u n c il m u s t l e a s e t h e la n d t o t h e O ffi c e o f t h e
P r e m i e r b e c a u s e t h e – th e y s a id le g i s l a tiv e l y i t is s t a te d th a t t h e
c o u n c i l c a n n o t l e a s e t h e l a n d d ir e c t t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e .
I t m u s t l e a s e i t t o th e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r.
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

S o th e la n d w a s n o t t h e n l e a s e d t o

E s ti n a a s f a r a s y o u k n o w. I t w a s l e a s e d t o t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r
Fr e e S t a t e . I s t h a t y o u r e v id e n c e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s .

A s f a r a s t h e r e s o lu t io n w a s

t a k e n b y t h e c o u n c il i t is th a t th e la n d s h o u ld b e l e a s e d d ir e c t t o th e
P r e m i e r.

S o t h a t t h e P r e m i e r c a n – c a n m a y b e g iv e i t t o t h e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e . S o t h e n th e y c a n l e a s e i t t o E s ti n a . It w a s
a – it w a s a …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : It w a s a l o n g , l o n g , lo n g s to r y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

And – and do you know how long was the

le a s e b e t w e e n t h e m u n ic i p a li ty a n d t h e O ff ic e o f th e Pr e m i e r ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Th e d o c u m e n t w h i c h r e p r e s e n te d t h a t
t h e l e a s e b e tw e e n t h e M u n i c i p a l it y a n d – a n d t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff ic e w a s
11 y e a r s …
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : A n d t h e r e a f t e r t h e n I – I l e a r n e d th a t
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e d id l e a s e t h e l a n d t o Es t i n a D a ir y S c a m
for 99 years lease free contract.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y l e a s e f r e e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e n t – r e n t fr e e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : R e n t fr e e .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : R e n t f r e e .
CHAIRPERSON: Rent free.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

20

R e n t fr e e - f o r 9 9 y e a r s r e n t fr e e t o

E s ti n a D a ir y Sc a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d d o y o u k n o w i f t h e m u n i c i p a li t y w a s
p a i d b y t h e – b y th e Fr e e S t a t e – Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v in c e f o r th is l a n d …
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : I …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e ? S o r r y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

I fo ll o w e d t h is – t h i s t h i n g o f th e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
d a ir y b e c a u s e i t w a s i n te r e s t i n g v e r y m u c h c l o s e l y a n d w h e n I l o o k e d
o n t o – o n t h e m u n i c i p a l f in a n c ia l b o o k s b e c a u s e w e w e r e r e p r e s e n t e d
w i t h t h o s e d o c u m e n ts .

I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a n y p a y m e n t fr o m t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e t o – to th e m u n i c i p a li t y a n d w h ic h w a s
s u p p o s e d t o b e c lo s e t o a m il li o n b y t h a t t i m e a n d in t h e a g r e e m e n t w e
a g r e e d th a t th e y – t h e y – i t w a s a g r e e d th a t th e – th e d e p a r t m e n t
s h o u l d p a y t h e m o n e y w h ic h is e q u iv a le n t t o – t o t h e r a t e s o f t h a t ti m e
a n d i f – i f th e h e c t a r e i s m a y b e 8 0 0 0 th is y e a r.
M a y b e n e x t y e a r i t is g o i n g t o b e 1 0 0 0 0 . T h e n t h e y m u s t p a y
10

t h e m o n e y w h ic h is e q u iv a le n t t o t h e r a t e o f th e h e c t a r e . I – I fo ll o w e d
t h is t h i n g . I h a v e n e v e r s e e n a n y p a y m e n t i n t o t h e m u n ic ip a l i ty.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h e M u n ic i p a l M a n a g e r w il l c o m e a n d
t e s ti fy. H e w il l s a y t h e l e a s e b e t w e e n t h e m u n i c i p a li t y a n d t h e p r o v i n c e
w a s f o r a y e a r a n d t h e y w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d i n t h e 1 9 y e a r - 9 9 y e a r
le a s e . D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

I d o h a v e a s tr o n g o b j e c t o n th a t

b e c a u s e i t – i t – t h e – t h e r e p r e s e n t a t io n fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e i s th e y s a i d to t h e c o u n c il t h e p il o t p r o j e c t f o r t h is d a i r y
s c a m is t h r e e y e a r s .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F o r t h e d a ir y s c a m o r t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e d a ir y p r o j e c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : H e s a id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l h e s a y s – h e s a id t h a t t h e p r o je c t is a s c a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . O k a y.

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P r o c e e d .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Th e n it – it d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e .

H o w c a n th e y l e a s e th e l a n d t o t h e p e o p le w h o h a v e a p l a n o f th r e e
y e a r s t o – t o ta k e t h e p r o j e c t o ff th e g r o u n d a n d a n y t h in g c a n h a p p e n .
Yo u s e e i n 11 y e a r s o n e y e a r a n y t h in g c a n h a p p e n . M a y b e t h e y le a s e d
o n e – o n e o n th a t le v e l b u t a s f a r a s I k n o w it w a s – i t w a s 11 y e a r s n o t
o n e y e a r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
10

Ye s a n d h e w i ll s a y f o r t h a t o n e y e a r th a t

t h e y h a d th is a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e p r o v in c e t h e y w e r e p a i d .

The

m u n i c i p a li t y w a s m a d e f o r t h e la n d .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e n h e ju s t h a s to b r i n g th e p r o o f …
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W h ic h s t a te s th a t D e p a r t m e n t o f

A g r ic u l t u r e p a id – t h e Pr o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e i n th e Fr e e
S t a te p a i d P h u m e le la s o m u c h f o r – fo r t h e l e a s e o f l a n d w h ic h is 4 4 0 0
h e c ta r e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. W e w i ll t a k e i t o u t w it h th e M u n i c i p a l
20

M a n a g e r. L e t u s p r o c e e d M r R a d e b e . O n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 y o u d e a l w i t h
t h e r e p o r t th a t y o u m a d e r e g a r d i n g t h e d e a d c o w s fr o m t h e f a r m . C o u l d
y o u p le a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll d u r in g t h a t – t h a t t i m e i t w a s

e a s y to a c c e s s th a t – t h a t d a ir y a n d I g o t a t ip o ff th a t th e – t h e c a tt l e
w e r e d y in g .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

W h i c h – w h ic h ti m e is t h i s ?

W h ic h y e a r i f

you may remember?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h e c a t tl e w a s b o u g h t i n 2 0 0 0 –

towards the end of 2013 – towards the end of 2013.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h e c a t t le w a s b o u g h t f o r t h a t d i a r y.

T h e n i n 2 0 1 4 I t h i n k th e c a t tl e s ta r t e d d y in g t h e r e to w a r d s t h e e n d o f
2 0 1 3 a g a in j u s t a f t e r t h e y a r r iv e d .

T h e n in Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 t h a t w a s

w h e n I w a s a le r t e d t h a t t h e c a t tl e – t h e y a r e p i li n g c a t t le u p in t h e
10

s tr e a m – i n a c e r t a i n s tr e a m a r o u n d Vr e d e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Then

I

went

myself

th e r e

and

w i t n e s s e d t h e s i t u a t i o n . T h e n I g o t t h a t t h e c a t tl e w e r e - w e r e d u m p e d
o n th e – o n th e s tr e a m w h i c h s u p p li e d d r i n k i n g w a te r t o – t o t h e Vr e d e
D a m . T h e n o n c e I w i t n e s s e d t h a t I i m m e d i a te ly a l e r t e d th e p r e s s a n d
the press came.

The story was on the front page on the very same

w e e k o n Fr i d a y a n d th e p h o to s w e r e ta k e n o n W e d n e s d a y.
T h e n o n Fr id a y i t w a s o n t h e fr o n t p a g e . T h e r e a f te r th e n th e
– I – I s a w t h a t n o t h in g d id h a p p e n . T h e n I a l e r te d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
20

E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff a ir s w i t h r e g a r d s t h a t t h i s - th e s e p e o p l e w e r e
p o ll u ti n g w a t e r w h ic h is t h e d r i n k in g w a t e r f o r p e o p l e o f Vr e d e . T h e n
t h e o ff ic ia l fr o m th e D e p a r t m e n t o f E n v i r o n m e n t a l A ff a i r s c a m e a f t e r I
t h i n k i t – t h e f o ll o w i n g w e e k o v e r t h e w e e k e n d .
T h e n w e m e t i n Vr e d e . I t o o k th e m t o t h e s c e n e . W h e n w e
g o t t h e r e t h e n w e g o t t h a t t h e c a t tl e w e r e n o w c o v e r e d w i th – w i th s o il .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t w h e r e t h e y s ti ll in t h a t s tr e a m ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s i n – in t h a t s tr e a m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :
m u s t w a i t f o r th e m i n - i n Vr e d e .

T h e n t h e o ffic i a l t o l d m e t h a t n o I
T h e y w i ll g o t o t h e – to t h e d a i r y

t h e m s e l v e s a n d d e a l w i t h t h e – th e o ff ic ia l i n t h e d a ir y. T h e n th e y w e n t
there.

T h e y in s tr u c te d t h e m t o g o a n d e x h u m e t h o s e c a t tl e o n t h a t

d r i n k i n g – d r i n k i n g w a t e r s tr e a m a n d b u r y t h e m in t h e fa r m . T h e y m u s t
d i g a h o l e t h e y – t h e y s a i d t o m e t h e y in s t r u c t e d t h e m t o d i g th r e e
10

m e tr e s d e e p h o le a n d b u r y th o s e c a t tl e i n t h a t a r e a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

A n d h o w m a n y c a t t le /c o w s w e r e th e r e th a t

w e r e d u m p e d i n t h a t s tr e a m ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll t a k in g i n t o c o n s i d e r a t io n t h a t i t

w a s i n s u m m e r a n d s o m e o f th o s e c a r c a s s e s w e r e a lr e a d y d e c o m p o s e d
but as far as I – I recognised when I got there it was not less than 45
c a r c a s s e s i n th a t – in t h a t s tr e a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w th e n u m b e r o f c a r c a s s e s y o u s a w o n t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r d a y - o n th a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u m e a n o v e r a c e r t a i n p e r io d y o u s a w 4 5 ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : U p t o – C h a ir u p to th a t d a y w h e r e –
w h e r e – u p t o t h a t d a y o f Fe b r u a r y w h ic h I r e p o r t e d t h i s t h i n g t o t h e
p r e s s . T h e c a r c a s s e s w h ic h w e r e d u m p e d t h e r e w e r e n o t le s s th a n 4 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a s o n t h e d a y w h e n t h e m e d ia c a m e w e r e t h e y

s t il l t h e r e – th e c a r c a s s e s – 4 5 o f th e m ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r. T h e y w e r e s ti ll t h e r e . T h e
m e d i a e v e n t o o k t h e p h o to s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

And

even

the

o ff ic ia l

fr o m

the

D e p a r t m e n t o f E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff a i r s w h e n th e y g o t t h e r e t h e c a r c a s s e s
w e r e t h e r e b u t t h e y w e r e c o v e r e d ju s t w it h s o i l .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Wa s i t p o s s ib le t o – w e r e y o u a b le to g e t a n

id e a o f h o w l o n g th e c a t t le h a d b e e n – h a d d i e d b y t h e ti m e y o u w e n t
there?

Could it have been a week?

Could it have been two weeks?

C o u ld it h a v e b e e n m u c h lo n g e r t h a n t h a t o r i t w a s d i ffic u lt t o t e ll ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Chair

when

I

got

there

my

o b s e r v a t i o n w a s th a t i t w a s n o t t h r e e m o n t h s s in c e t h e y w e r e d y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is o b v i o u s l y …
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : U p t o t h a t d a y y e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : th e y – t h e y m a y h a v e d ie d o n d i ff e r e n t d a y s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

S o w e r e t h e y a ls o i n d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s o f

d e c o m p o s i ti o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s . O t h e r s t h e y w e r e a l m o s t t o t a lly

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
d e c o m p o s e d . O th e r s w e r e fr e s h a n d fo r t h e r e c o r d it n e v e r e n d e d t h a t
d a y. C a tt l e k e p t o n d y i n g a f t e r w a r d s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u a b le t o t e ll a b o u t h o w m a n y in a d d i ti o n to t h e
4 5 y o u h a v e to l d m e a b o u t a ls o d i e d t h a t y o u w e r e – b e c a m e a w a r e o f
a ft e r w a r d s m o r e o r le s s ?

In o t h e r w o r d s h o w m a n y m o r e d i d y o u

b e c o m e a w a r e o f th a t d ie d a ft e r w a r d s ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a ir j u s t a f t e r t h a t p u b lic a ti o n to t h e
p r e s s b e c a u s e t h a t th i n g i t c a u g h t th e a t te n ti o n o f t h e w h o le S o u t h
10

A fr ic a . T h e n t h e s e c u r it y w a s b e e fe d u p i n th a t d a ir y t h a t n o o n e m u s t
c o m e c l o s e to t h a t d a ir y. W e w e r e e v e n b a r r e d f o r y o u t o – t o m a y b e t o
w a lk in – i n t o - i n t o t h e fi e l d n o t j u s t t h e d a ir y a lo n e . T h e n t h a t is w h e n
I – w e – w e - I b e g a n to s t a y a w a y b e c a u s e m y l i fe w a s g o i n g t o b e
endangered.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t b u t w h a t I w a n t to fi n d o u t

b e c a u s e y o u s a id th a t th o s e 4 5 w e r e n o t t h e l a s t o n e s to d i e .
c o n ti n u e d t o d ie a ft e r th e d a t e w h e n t h e m e d i a w a s t h e r e .

C a t t le

So I am

tr y i n g to fi n d o u t w h e t h e r y o u b e c a m e a w a r e - h o w m a n y y o u b e c a m e
a w a r e o f t h a t d ie d a f te r w a r d s o r - o r y o u d id n o t s e e a n y th a t h a d d ie d .
20

Yo u j u s t h e a r d th a t th e y w e r e c o n ti n u i n g t o d i e .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir y e s I – I j u s t h e a r d t h a t t h e

c a t tl e k e p t o n d y in g b u t I d i d n o t w i t n e s s b e c a u s e n o w t h e y w e r e b u r i e d
d e e p i n s id e th e fa r m w h e r e w e c a n n o t a c c e s s t h a t p l a c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

B u t p e o p l e w h o w o r k i n g o n t h e d a ir y

t h e n w h e n w e e n g a g e w i th t h e m t h e n t h e y w il l t e ll m e t h a t t h e c a t t l e
k e e p o n d y i n g b u t w e a r e b u r y i n g t h e m a t a d i ffe r e n t p l a c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Fr o m t h e o n e th a t y o u – y o u s a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r R a d e b e i n p a r a g r a p h
1 5 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u e x p r e s s a v i e w a s t o – a r e a s o n w h y th o s e
c a t tl e w e r e d y i n g .
10

I t i s y o u r p e r s o n a l v i e w.

W h y d o y o u t h in k t h o s e

c a t tl e w e r e d y i n g i n t h e fa r m ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

H o n e s t l y s p e a k i n g th o s e c a t t le w e r e

d y i n g – w e r e – w e r e s t a r v in g a n d a n o th e r t h i n g t h e y w e r e n o t
v a c c i n a t e d . T h e y w e r e n o t tr e a t e d w it h p r o p e r m e d i c a t io n . T h a t is w h y
t h e y w e r e d y i n g l ik e f li e s . M o s t o f th e ti m e y o u d o n o t j u s t t a k e d a ir y
c a t tl e a n d fe e d t h e m in a n o p e n f ie l d . Yo u le t t h e m g r a z e i n a n o p e n
fi e l d . Yo u h a v e to g iv e t h e m s o m e s u p p l e m e n t a n d – a n d f e e d in g b u t
t h o s e w e r e le f t to – to g r a z e o n th e ir o w n o n a n o p e n fi e ld .
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h e w a y d id y o u s a y y o u y o u r s e l f h a v e a lo t o f

e x p e r i e n c e in f a r m i n g w i t h c a tt l e ?
20

Yo u y o u r s e l f d o y o u h a v e a lo t o f

e x p e r i e n c e o f fa r m i n g w i th c a t tl e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s C h a ir.

I have been farming – I

h a v e b e e n fu ll y f a r m i n g s i n c e 2 0 0 3 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

B u t w i t h b e e f c a t t le a n d – a n d w h e n

y o u d o fa r mi n g y o u d o a ll – a ll s o r ts o f a s p e c ts o f f a r m i n g .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : It is g r a i n . I t i s – i t is b e e f c a t t le .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

It is – it is m ilk c a t tl e .

Then you

c h o o s e w h ic h o n e y o u w a n t t o – t o w o r k o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To f o c u s o n , j a .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s b u t I a m c l u e d u p w i th t h e d a ir y

c a t tl e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u h a v e a g o o d i d e a o f h o w d a ir y c a t tl e s h o u l d b e

h a n d l e d a n d s h o u l d b e tr e a t e d ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r I d o h a v e t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n y o u t h e n d e a l

w i t h t h e – t h e th r e a ts a n d t h e a t ta c k s t h a t y o u e x p e r ie n c e d f o l lo w in g
the reports that you - you made.

Could you please take us through

those events?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

M o r e e s p e c i a lly a f t e r t h is e v e n t o f

r e p o r t in g t h e – t h e – t h o s e d a ir y c a r c a s s e s …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :
o f t h e – t h e P a r li a m e n t i ts e l f .

T h is t h i n g c a u g h t e v e n t h e a t te n ti o n
P e o p l e a r o u n d Vr e d e t h e n b e c a m e s o

v io l e n t . T h e y – t h e y w e r e a n g r y a t m e a s I w a s th e o n e w h o r e p o r t e d
t h e m a t t e r to – t o t h e p r e s s a n d I w a s e v e n a t t a c k e d p e r s o n a l ly …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : B y - b y a g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h o I - 0 b y

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
t h a t t i m e w e b e l ie v e i t w a s – w a s M r Z w a n e ’s p r i v a t e f o r c e . H e – h e –
a ft e r h e b e c a m e th e – a f te r h e g o t i n to t h a t – th a t p o s i ti o n o f – o f th e
A g r ic u l t u r a l M E C h e h a d s o m e d u b i o u s e m p l o y m e n t i n th e – in t h e
O ff ic e o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a r o u n d th e a r e a o f Vr e d e .
T h e y w e r e – h e h i r e d f iv e p e o p le th a t – t h a t o ff ic e h ir e d fiv e
p e o p l e w i t h o u t f o ll o w i n g t h e p r o p e r p r o c e d u r e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d h o w d o y o u k n o w th a t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

What makes us to – what makes me

t o b e s u s p ic i o u s t h a t it w a s – t h e r i g h t p r o c e d u r e w a s n o t fo ll o w e d is
10

t h a t y o u c a n n o t – y o u c a n n o t h ir e – y o u c a n n o t h ir e p e o p l e w h o – a
c e r t a i n g r o u p o f p e o p l e m a y b e h o w a r e fr i e n d s a t th e s a m e t i m e w h e n –
w h e n th e p o p u l a ti o n o f th a t a r e a is s o b i g . W h ic h m e a n s th o s e - t h o s e
p o s ts w e r e – w e r e c r e a t e d e s p e c ia ll y f o r t h e m .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e n …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t – w h a t i s i t t h a t t h e y w e r e d o in g
t h e s e p e o p l e – t h e s e s p e c i a l f o r c e fo r M r Z w a n e w h a t w a s t h e ir r o l e i n
t h e A g r ic u l t u r a l D e p a r t m e n t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e ir r o l e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t ?

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . W h a t is i t th a t th e y w e r e d o i n g ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e t w o g u y s w e r e s e c u r it y g u a r d s . I
t h i n k th e t w o g u y s i s B o n g a n i R a d e b e a n d D i n g a a n D in g a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Th e y w e r e s e c u r i ty g u a r d s a n d th e r e

w e r e o t h e r t w o g u y s . I t is T h u t o K g a n y e w h o w a s w o r k i n g i n t h e o ffic e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
a n d t h e o th e r o n e is A n to n S ib e k o k n o w n a s X o li s a . T h e y – t h e y w e r e –
a l l th o s e t w o t h e y w e r e w o r k in g in t h e O ffi c e o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d a f t e r
t h a t – a f t e r t h a t ti m e w h e n th e y g o t i n t o th a t o ff ic e t h e r e w a s a n
e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r w o r k in g i n th a t O ffi c e o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d a n o t h e r l a d y
w h o i s w o r k i n g – i s a n a d m i n i s t r a t io n i n th a t o ff ic e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h o s e t w o p e o p le w e r e – w e r e

u n d e r m i n e d d u r i n g t h is t h i n g o f t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t .

I r e m e m b e r th e

e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r h e w a s e v e n s tr ip e d o f t h e r i g h t s o f d r i v i n g a c a r. H e
10

w a s w a lk i n g …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : H m .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : A n d t h o s e t w o g u y s w e r e u s i n g t h e –
t h e a g r ic u l t u r a l – th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r a l c a r b y th a t t i m e . T h e y
w e r e – i t - i t l o o k s a s i f t h e y w e r e s e n i o r s i n t h a t o ff ic e b y t h a t t i m e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

And how – how were you attacked then?

Who - who attacked you and how were you attacked?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h e p e o p l e w h o a t t a c k e d m e th e y

w e r e – th e y w e r e d r iv i n g w i th Fr a n s M o k o e n a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o i s F r a n s M o k o e n a ?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :
t e n d e r p r e n e u r in P h u m e l e l a .

Fr a n s M o k o e n a

is

–

is

a

well

H e u s e d t o g e t t e n d e r s l e ft a n d r i g h t i n

that area.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So he is a businessman?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : I p r e s u m e s o . H e is a t e n d e r p r e n e u r.

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h e r e w a s h e g e t t in g h is te n d e r s ? Fr o m –
is i t th e G o v e r n m e n t t e n d e r s ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : J a t h e y w e r e G o v e r n m e n t t e n d e r s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : F r o m w h ic h d e p a r t m e n ts i f y o u k n o w ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Th e – th e – o n e o f t h e b i g g e s t

t e n d e r s t h a t h e g o t fir s t i s w h e n – w h e n M r M o s e b e n z i w a s th e M E C o f
– o f C o G TA . I t h in k i n 2 0 0 9 h e w a s M E C o f C o G TA . T h e n F r a n s g o t a
b i g te n d e r i n W a r d e n t o b u i ld h o u s e s – t h e R D P h o u s e s . T h a t is o n e o f
h is b i g t e n d e r s . T h e n h e – h e w i ll u s e s o m e o t h e r t e n d e r s t h e n a r o u n d
10

t h e a r e a w h i le M r Zw a n e w a s - w a s t h e M E C .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W h e n I w a s a t t a c k e d th e y w e r e – h e

w a s d r iv i n g h i s c a r. In h is c a r i t w a s B o n g a n i R a d e b e , D i n g a a n D i n g a
a n d A n to n “ X o lis a ” S i b e k o .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e n I w a s – I w a s a t ta c k e d . T h e n I
w a s e v e n s p r a y e d w i th p e p p e r s p r a y o n t h e e y e s . T h e y s a id t h a t I a m –
I a m d is t u r b i n g t h e A N C fr o m d o i n g it s w o r k a n d I w a s n o t t h e o n ly
p e r s o n w h o w a s a t ta c k e d a r o u n d t h e a r e a .
20

Everybody who was

a s s o c i a t e d w i t h m y s e lf th e y w e r e a t t a c k e d t h r o w in g a ll s o r ts o f in s u l ts
o n t h e s tr e e t s .

T h e li f e t h a t w e liv e b y t h a t ti m e is – it w a s a

fr i g h te n in g l i fe .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why they attacked you?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir, w e – w e h a d s o m e d i ffe r e n c e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
ju s t a f te r t h e – th e – a f t e r I r e p o r te d th o s e c a r c a s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m e d i a – t o th e m e d i a ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h e n w e …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w e r e t h e d i ff e r e n c e a b o u t ?

What – what

w e r e t h e y s a y i n g a n d w h a t w e r e y o u s a y i n g o n th e i s s u e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll w e h a d – w e – w e h a d a n

a r g u m e n t w i t h T h u t o K g a n y e a t o n e o f t h e te n n i s c o u r t s a r o u n d Vr e d e .
10

T h e n t h e r e a ft e r …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w a s t h e a r g u m e n t?

W h a t w a s h e s a y in g

and what were you saying?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : O h it – w h e n w e e x c h a n g in g w o r d s h e
s a i d w i t h r e g a r d s to t h e – to t h i s d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

In o th e r w o r d s w h a t I w a n t is to s e e w h e th e r it w a s

c o n n e c t e d w i th y o u r s t a n c e o n th e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m P r o j e c t o r w h e t h e r
it w a s a b o u t o th e r d i ff e r e n c e s th a t th e tw o o f y o u m a y h a v e h a d .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll I c a n n o t – I c a n n o t r e c a ll

c o r r e c t ly w h e r e b u t I – I – w e h a d a g o in g o n e a c h o t h e r w i th
20

T h u t o K g a n y e a t th e t e n n is c o u r t. T h e n T h u t o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t
is h i m o r m a y b e – b u t t h e r e w a s – th e y w e r e a ll m e m b e r s p l a y in g a t t h e
tennis court.

T h e n th e y p h o n e d t h o s e g u y s a n d s a y h e r e is D o c t o r

h e r e . C o m e a n d – a n d fix h i m u p .
W h e n I w a s o n m y w a y t o – t o t h e p o l ic e s ta t io n th e n I – I
t h i n k i t is p lu s o r m i n u s 4 0 0 m e tr e s f r o m t h e te n n i s c o u r t t h a t is w h e n I

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– I c a m e a c r o s s th e c a r o f F r a n s M o k o e n a w i t h t h e s e g u y s . Th e y s t a n d
in fr o n t o f m e l ik e th is o n t h e c a r. T h e n t h e y o p e n e d t h e d o o r s a l l o f
them. They came out and – and attacked me.
W h e n I – w h e n I c a m e o u t th e n B o n g a n i R a d e b e t o o k o u t a
p e p p e r s p r a y e r a n d s a i d t h e A N C is b i g g e r th a n m e . I c a n n o t t o u c h t h e
A N C . T h e n h e s p r a y e d m e w i th p e p p e r s p r a y in t h e e y e s a n d I w a s – I
w a s d r iv in g a l o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
10

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Th e n th e o t h e r g u y – ( i n d is t in c t) I

c o u l d n o t s e e . T h e n t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r g u y w h o a p p r o a c h e d m e fr o m
t h e fr o n t .

I a s k e d h i m to d r i v e to th e p o l ic e s t a ti o n w i t h m y o w n c a r.

T h e n h e d r o v e m e to t h e p o li c e s t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a r e y o u a b l e to s a y t h a t th e y a t t a c k e d y o u

b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a d r e p o r t e d t h e – th e f a c t t h a t c o w s w e r e
d y i n g o n t h e Vr e d e F a r m – d a ir y f a r m t o t h e m e d ia o r w h e th e r i t w a s
a b o u t o t h e r is s u e s ? A r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h a t it – i t w a s a b o u t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a ir w i t h t h a t o n e I a m d e a d s u r e I
w a s a t t a c k e d b a s e d o n th is th i n g o f t h e d a i r y f a r m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : I c a n p u t th a t o n r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e n y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a r e y o u b a s i n g th a t o n w h a t t h e y s a i d w h e n th e y
w e r e a t ta c k i n g y o u o r o n e o f t h e m – w h a t o n e o f t h e m s a i d ?

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s . I a m – y e s C h a ir. I a m – I a m
b a s i n g i t o n w h a t t h e y s a i d w h e n t h e y a tt a c k e d m e a n d a f t e r w a r d s
m a y b e a f t e r a w h il e w h e n – m a y b e a f te r a r o u n d t h r e e y e a r s B o n g a n i
b e c a u s e w e w e r e s h a r in g t h e s a m e – s u r n a m e t h e n .

He came and

a p p r o a c h e d a n d t e ll m e t h a t I a m s o r r y a b o u t w h a t e v e r h a p p e n e d
because I was – I was used and I was duped but whatever you were
d o i n g t h e n y o u w e r e r i g h t b e c a u s e y o u w e r e d o in g i t f o r th e p e o p le o f
Vr e d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t B o n g a n i’s s u r n a m e a g a i n ?
10

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : R a d e b e .
CHAIRPERSON: Radebe?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s R a d e b e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Same surname as you?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t h e w a s o n e o f th o s e w h o a t t a c k e d y o u ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

H e w a s t h e o n e w h o – C h a ir h e w a s

the one who used the pepper spray on me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u s a y a f te r w a r d s h e – h e s p o k e to y o u a n d
h e s a i d h e w a s s o r r y a b o u t t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y h a d a t t a c k e d y o u b u t t h e
s t a n c e y o u h a d ta k e n w a s t h e c o r r e c t o n e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t h e s a i d . Ev e n n o w
h e s t il l s ta n d s o n h i s w o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e – h e s ti ll s a y s t h a t n o w ?

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y a n d h o w l o n g a ft e r t h e a tt a c k w a s i t w h e n

h e s a id t h i s t o y o u ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

W e ll C h a ir j u s t a f te r t h e a t t a c k h e

s a i d – h e s p o k e in Z u lu . H e s a i d ( is i Z u l u ) I a m s o r r y. T h e n I – t h e n
a ft e r w a r d s t h e n w e m e t a n d t h e n h e s a i d I t h i n k t h e th i n g s w e r e
b e g in n i n g t o b e – n o t t o b e r o s y a s t h e y w e r e . T h e n a f te r a l o n g w h il e
h e a p p r o a c h e d m e a n d s a id I a m s o r r y I w a s u s e d a n d I w a s d u p e d .
I d i d n o t t h i n k c l e a r ly b e c a u s e t h e – i t l o o k s a s i f t h e r e w a s –
10

there was greener on the other part where I was shown but anyone I
s a w th a t w h a t y o u w e r e d o in g w a s r ig h t a n d y o u w e r e d o i n g i t fo r th e
p e o p l e o f Vr e d e a n d – I m e a n fo r t h e p e o p l e o f P h u m e l e la .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y o n e o f t h e – o f y o u r a t t a c k e r s s a id th e
A N C i s b ig g e r th a n y o u ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h a t is “ X o lis a ” A n to n S i b e k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t r e p e a t w h a t h e s a i d .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : H e s a id I c a n n o t s t a n d o n t h e w a y o f
t h e A N C . T h e A N C is b i g g e r t h a n m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Did you report these

a tt a c k s to t h e p o l ic e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

I m m e d i a t e ly

when

th a t

guy

a p p r o a c h e d m e f r o m t h e fr o n t I a s k e d h i m t o d r iv e m e t o t h e p o li c e
s t a ti o n b u t I c o u l d n o t s e e c le a r ly b e c a u s e t h a t – t h a t t h i n g is s o s o r e
in s i d e t h e e y e s .

W h e n I g o t t o th e p o l i c e s t a t i o n s o m e o t h e r p o l ic e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
o ffic e r s a id I m u s t g o to – a n d w a s h m y f a c e . T h e r e a f t e r I w e n t t o t h e
c h a r g e r o o m . I t o ld t h e m w h a t h a p p e n e d . I w a n t to o p e n a c a s e . T h e n
t h e y s a i d t h a t t h e y w a n t t o c o n s u l t w i t h t h e ir S t a t io n C o m m a n d e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o i s t h e i r S t a ti o n C o m m a n d e r ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : H e is Mr X a s a .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t – t h a t is s tr a n g e . Yo u c o m e a s a m e m b e r o f th e
p u b lic . Yo u s a y t o – y o u s a y to t h e p o l ic e o ffic e r a t t h e c h a r g e o ff ic e . I
w a n t t o o p e n a c a s e . T h e y s a y t h e y w a n t t o c o n s u l t s o m e b o d y. T h a t i s
10

w h a t th e y s a id ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a i r t h a t is w h a t t h e y s a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : A n d e v e n t u a lly t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y w e n t to c o n s u l t t h e S t a t io n C o m m a n d e r ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s C h a ir t h e y w e n t t o c o n s u l t t h e

S t a ti o n C o m m a n d e r. T h e n t h e S t a ti o n C o m m a n d e r is s u e d a s t a te m e n t .
H e s a i d t o m e t h a t s u c h c a s e s d o n o t – d o n o t fa ll in – i n t h e ir o ff ic e .
T h e r e is a c e r t a i n o ff ic e fr o m B e t h le h e m .
20

Th e r e i s a c e r ta i n o ff ic i a l

w h o m u s t c o m e a n d a s s i s t u s w i th s u c h c a s e s b e c a u s e m y in c i d e n t w a s
n o t t h e – h e s a i d m y i n c id e n t w a s n o t t h e f ir s t o n e .
T h e s e c a s e s a r e p o l i ti c a l r e l a t e d c a s e s .
w i t h p o li ti c a l r e l a te d c a s e s .

Th e y d o n o t w o r k

There is a certain department in

Bethlehem. Then I was – then I was turned away and say – they say
t h e y w i ll b r in g p e o p le f r o m B e t h l e h e m b u t e v e n t o d a y t h o s e p e o p l e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
never came.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y e a r w a s i t w h e n y o u w e r e a t ta c k e d ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : I t w a s t h e e le c t i o n o f 2 0 1 4 , j u s t a f t e r
t h e in c i d e n t o f t h e c a r c a s s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e y r e fu s e d t o o p e n a c a s e f o r y o u a n d ta k e a

s t a te m e n t fr o m y o u b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d t h e r e i s a n o t h e r o ff ic e t h a t
h a n d l e s p o li t ic a l ly c o n n e c t e d c a s e s o r p o l it ic a l m o t iv a te d c a s e s a n d
t h a t o ffic e i s i n B e t h le h e m ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e y s a i d t h e y w o u l d a r r a n g e fo r s o m e b o d y fr o m
B e t h l e h e m t o c o m e a n d ta k e a s ta t e m e n t fr o m y o u o r d id t h e y s a y y o u
s h o u l d g o to B e t h l e h e m ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir t h e y s a i d th e y w il l a r r a n g e

s o m e b o d y fr o m B e t h le h e m t o c o m e a n d m a k e – a n d o p e n a c a s e f o r
me.
CHAIRPERSON: And that has never happened?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a i r e v e n t o d a y i t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id t h e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r a t – is th a t – it ’s n o t a t

Vr e d e P o lic e S t a ti o n is it ?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s C h a i r i t’s in Vr e d e P o l ic e

S t a ti o n
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is h a p p e n e d i n Vr e d e P o lic e S t a ti o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e s ta t io n c o m m a n d e r a t th e ti m e w a s w h o , w h a t
w a s h is n a m e ?

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir it w a s t h e s a m e p e r s o n M r

X h a s a b u t b y th a t t i m e h e w a s a c ti n g , n o w I t h i n k h e ’s a p e r m a n e n t
s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t ’s M r X h a s a ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a X h a s a , ( n a m e s p e l t) I t h i n k ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e h a s n e v e r c o n t a c te d y o u a b o u t t h is c a s e s in c e

t h e n ? H e h a s n e v e r c o m e b a c k to y o u t o s a y w h e t h e r, w h e n h e tr i e d t o
10

g e t s o m e b o d y f r o m B e t h le h e m t h e r e w e r e a n y p r o b l e m s ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

He never came back to me, the last

ti m e w e s p o k e a b o u t th is c a s e i t w a s t h a t t i m e w h e n I w a s t u r n e d a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , I ’v e h e a r d , I th in k f r o m M r D h la m i n i a l s o t h a t h e
s h o w e d t h e s a m e s t a t io n c o m m a n d e r a v i d e o o f t h r e a ts o n h i s li f e a n d
t h a t s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r a n d th e p o li c e s t a ti o n d i d n ’ t o p e n a n y d o c k e t
a n d t h e y d i d n ’ t t a k e a n y s ta t e m e n ts f r o m h i m . S o y o u a r e a ls o s a y i n g
you went there and you spoke to him, you wanted a case to be opened
20

b e c a u s e y o u h a d b e e n a t t a c k e d a n d y o u h a d a c tu a l ly b e e n a t t a c k e d o n
t h e s a m e d a y, y o u r e p o r t e d o n t h e s a m e d a y a n d t h e y d i d n ’ t o p e n a
c a s e a n d h e s a i d t h e y w o u ld n e e d t o c o n ta c t a n o th e r o ff ic e in
B e t h l e h e m a n d t h e y ’v e n e v e r c o m e b a c k to y o u ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a i r, y o u ’r e r i g h t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h e le g a l t e a m m u s t p l e a s e f o l lo w t h i s u p a s

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
w e ll a n d I n e e d t o h a v e r e p o r t b a c k s o n a ll t h e s e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e I ’v e
h e a r d e v id e n c e t h a t t h e p o li c e o r s o m e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s
d o n ’t a p p e a r t o h a v e c o n d u c te d in v e s ti g a t io n s i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e
t h e y s h o u ld h a v e a n d t h e y ’v e n e v e r k e p t c o m p la i n a n ts i n f o r m e d a s t o
w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w it h in v e s ti g a t i o n s .

I need to have report backs

o n a l l o f t h e m . O k a y c o n t in u e .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, C h a ir w e h a v e a lr e a d y

n o t i fi e d o u r L a w E n f o r c e m e n t W o r k - s tr e a m o n t h is is s u e o f M r R a d e b e
a n d h is s t a te m e n t w a s m a d e a v a i l a b le t o t h e m a s w e l l b u t w e w i ll f o ll o w
10

up.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you, Mr Radebe would you please

t h e n te ll u s a b o u t t h e f u r t h e r a b u s e s th a t y o u e x p e r ie n c e d a s a r e s u l t
o f t h e i n f l u e n c e th a t th e s e p e o p l e h a d i n Vr e d e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

Ye s , i n a d d i t io n , I c a n e v e n a s s i s t

t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i t h o t h e r th r e e g u y s w h o w e r e a t t a c k e d b e s i d e m e ,
w h o w e r e t u r n e d a w a y fr o m t h e p o l ic e s t a ti o n t h e s a m e w a y I w a s
turned.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh what are their names?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h e fi r s t o n e i s Th y s Q w e b u .

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h o e l s e ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : th e o t h e r o n e i s S i s e z w a n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e t h i r d p e r s o n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

H e i s w e ll k n o w n a s M a g a g a , b u t I

k n o w – I k n o w h i m p e r s o n a lly a n d e v e n w e r e h e s ta y s , w e c a l l h i m

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M a g a g a , I t h i n k h i s s u r n a m e is M a g a g a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n w e r e t h e s e in c i d e n ts – w h e n d i d t h e y

happen?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : C h a i r t h e y a l l h a p p e n e d in 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: And they were reported in 2014?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: Ye s C h a i r t h e y w e r e r e p o r t e d i n 2 0 1 4 ,
t h e v e r y s a m e p o l ic e s ta t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y u p to n o w, n o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d , t h e y
w e r e t u r n e d a w a y, a c t u a ll y f r o m t h e p o lic e s ta t io n , i s t h a t w h a t y o u ’r e
10

s a y in g ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s C h a ir t h e y w e r e t o ld t h a t t h e r e

w i ll b e p e o p l e c o m i n g fr o m B e t h l e h e m w h o w i ll a s s is t th e m t o o p e n
t h e ir c a s e s . I e v e n tr ie d t o s p e a k t o t h e m w h e n th e C o m m i s s i o n fir s t
a p p r o a c h e d m e , t h e y s a i d , i t ju s t e n d e d li k e t h a t , th e y n e v e r c a m e b a c k
to them.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e r e t h e a t t a c k s o n th e m c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e

d a ir y – Vr e d e D a i r y Fa r m Pr o je c t o r w e r e t h e y ju s t – o r w e r e t h e y j u s t
c r i m i n a l a t ta c k s o r w e r e th e y a t t a c k s t h a t w e r e p o li ti c a ll y m o t iv a t e d b y
t h e ir p o li ti c a l o p p o n e n t s , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w ?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir t h e y w e r e s tr i c t ly p o li ti c a ll y

c o n n e c t e d t h o s e t h r e e g u y s w e r e v e r y m u c h c lo s e t o m e w h i le I w a s a
c o u n c i ll o r, I u s e d t o s p e n d l o ts o f t i m e w i th th e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t th e y w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d i n a n y o p p o s i t io n to

t h e Vr e d e D a i r y Fa r m P r o j e c t a s s u c h , t h e a t t a c k s m a y h a v e b e e n
p o li t ic a l ly c o n n e c t e d b u t i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r m a t te r s ?

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

C h a ir b y t h a t ti m e T h y s Q w e b u a n d

S is iz w a n e , t h e y w e r e D A m e m b e r s i n g o o d s ta n d i n g , t h e n M r M a g a g a
h e w a s – h e w a s e v e n s u p p o r ti v e o f u s w e u s e d t o s p e n d ti m e w i t h h i m ,
but he was not a member by that time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , t h e l e g a l t e a m , I s u g g e s t t h a t y o u d o n ’ t
a s k s o m e b o d y e l s e t o b e i n t o u c h w i t h th e p o l ic e , i f y o u ’r e g o i n g to a s k
s o m e b o d y e ls e t o d o t h a t , i t’s g o in g t o t a k e a g e s .

I suggest that

c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i t h t h e S A P S a b o u t th e s e m a t t e r s b e d ir e c t .

I f i t ’s

s o m e b o d y e l s e y o u ’ r e a s k in g th e n i t s h o u l d i n v o lv e j u s t d r a f ti n g l e tt e r s
10

t h a t a r e t o b e s i g n e d b y t h e a c t in g s e c r e ta r y b u t d o n ’ t a s k a n o t h e r
w o r k - s tr e a m t o l o o k a t t h a t, l o o k a t th a t y o u r s e l v e s , th e n i t ’s g o i n g t o
b e q u ic k e r.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o s o C h a i r, t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

C h a ir I ’ m t o ld i t ’s t e a ti m e , I’ m a l m o s t

fi n i s h e d w i th t h i s w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a l e t’s tr y a n d f i n is h w i t h h i m .
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Thank you yes.

Yo u t h e n d e a l w i t h o t h e r

a b u s e s t h a t y o u e x p e r i e n c e d , in p a r a g r a p h 2 1 a n d 2 2 o f y o u r
20

s t a te m e n t , a s a r e s u l t o f y o u h a v i n g r e p o r t e d t h is m a t te r, c a n y o u
ju s t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

S o m e o f th e a b u s e s a r e v e r y m u c h

tr a u m a t is e d y o u c a n n o t g o b a c k t o t h e m b u t I c a n b r i n g o n e t o t h e
a tt e n ti o n o f t h e C o m m i s s io n t h a t I w a s o n c e s h o t b y th e p o l ic e w h e n I
w a s g e t t in g in t o t h e f a r m . I t a s in 2 0 1 4 , w h e n I g o t i n t o th e f a r m t h e n –

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
b u t f o r s e c u r i ty r e a s o n s a n d I c a n n o t s p e a k a l l t h e d e t a i ls b u t t h e
p o li c e c a m e a t t h e g a t e a n d s a i d to m e , i t w a s a t n i g h t , t h e y s a i d t h e y
w a n t to s e a r c h m y c a r. I s a i d , b u t h o w c a n y o u s e a r c h m y c a r w h e n w e
a r e n o t e v e n – y o u h a v e n ’ t e v e n t u r n e d o n t h e b lu e l ig h ts , I d o n ’ t tr u s t
y o u , l e t u s g o t o th e h o u s e b e c a u s e – it ’s o n l y 3 0 0 m e tr e s f r o m t h e
m a in g a te t o t h e h o u s e . I s a id I d o n ’ t tr u s t y o u , le t u s g o in t h e h o u s e
b e c a u s e I ’v e g o t s o m e p e o p l e in th e h o u s e w h o c a n m a y b e b e
witnesses or back me.

Th e n I d r o v e o ff , w h e n I d r o v e o ff, t h e y f ir e d

fi v e l iv e a m m u n i ti o n s h o t s o n m y c a r a n d t w o o f th e m l a n d e d o n m y c a r
10

a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d w it h t h e o th e r s , t h e n I w e n t s t r a i g h t t o
t h e h o u s e . W h e n I g o t in t o t h e h o u s e th e y f o l lo w e d m e , t h e y c a m e a n d
in t h e h o u s e i t w a s m y b r o th e r a n d m y c o u s i n a n d t h e o th e r g u y, t h e r e
w e r e t h r e e , th e y w e n t a n d s p o k e t o t h e m , t h e y a s k e d t h e m w h a t a r e
t h e y l o o k i n g f o r, t h e y s a i d t h e y w a n t a d r i v e r ’s l ic e n s e , t h e n I g a v e m y
b r o t h e r t h e d r iv e r ’s l ic e n s e t h e y s a id t h e y w a n t t o s e a r c h t h e c a r. T h e y
o p e n e d t h e c a r t h e n th e r e a f t e r th e y s a id – a c e r t a i n l a d y s a i d t o m e I
t h i n k I’ m c l e v e r t h e n th e y a r e th e p o lic e th e y w i ll g e t a f te r m e a n d
i m m e d i a t e ly I w e n t to o p e n a c a s e , t h e n t h e c a s e w a s i n v e s t ig a t e d b y
t h e I P, i t d r a g o n a n d o n a n d o n th e n e v e n t u a ll y t h e n i t j u s t d is a p p e a r e d

20

a n d n o - o n e e v e r c a m e t o m e , n o ti fy m e w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e c a s e
e v e n to d a y. A f t e r th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s d o n e th e n p o l ic e g o t s o m e
c a r tr id g e o n t h e s c e n e a n d t a k e t h e m a s e v i d e n c e b u t e v e n t o d a y n o o n e e v e r c a m e to m e , i t ’s m o r e t h a n fiv e y e a r s n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a t w i ll b e i n c l u d e d i n c h e c k i n g e x a c tly w h a t

happened ja.

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u w a s t h i s a ls o a f te r y o u r e p o r te d
t h is – th e c a r c a s s e s a t E s t i n a ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s th is o n e I c l e a r l y r e m e m b e r it d id
happen on the - it was on the 14th of June 2014.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w e ’ ll t a k e i t u p w i t h t h e

a u t h o r i t ie s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Than you and you deal with what was

h a p p e n in g w i t h t h e S t a t e v e t a t Vr e d e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 a n d 2 2 o f y o u r
10

s t a te m e n t w o u ld y o u p l e a s e t a lk t o t h a t?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

A s I h a v e s t a te d o n c e t h e s e

g e n tl e m e n w e r e e m p lo y e d in t h e d e p a r t m e n t – t h e o ff ic e o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l t u r e , t h a t o ffi c e w a s e v e n t u a l ly t u r n e d to b e a
p o li t ic a l p a r ty o ff ic e o f t h e A N C , e v e n M r Z w a n e , w h e n h e c a m e t o
Vr e d e h e w i ll g o t o t h a t o ffic e a n d th e y w i l l h a v e m e e ti n g i n t h a t o ffi c e .
I f t h e y fe e l t h a t t h e ( i n d is ti n c t ) is s m a ll t h e y w i ll j u s t ta k e a p h o n e c a ll
a n d p h o n e t h e m a y o r i n th e M u n i c i p a li ty s o t h a t t h e m a y o r c a n p r o v i d e
t h e m w i th – i f th e r e ’s s p a c e i m m e d i a t e ly w i t h o u t e v e n m a k i n g s o m e –
m a y b e a n a p p o in t m e n t o r b o o k a p l a c e t o t h e M u n i c i p a li t y a n d o n c e
20

these

g e n tl e m e n

got

employed

in

that

o ffi c e ,

I

was

t a k i n g … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o a r e t h e s e g e n tl e m e n n o w ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Th e o n e ’s w h ic h I s t a t e d I th in k t h e r e
w a s o n e p r iv a te f o r c e ? K o li s a , Th u t o , D i n g a a n D i n g a a n d B o n g a n i
Radebe.

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E: To m y s u r p r is e I w a s – a s a f a r m e r w e
– a s f a r m e r s th e n w e w il l g e t t h e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r d i d h a v e h is d a t a
b a s e o f t h e fa r m e r s b u t I w a s t a k e n o u t o f t h a t d a t a b a s e a f t e r t h a t
g e n tl e m e n g o t i n to th a t o ff ic e a n d - a s w e h a d s o m e d i ffe r e n c e s
p o li t ic a l ly. T h o s e t w o w e r e s e c u r i t ie s t h e y w e r e s i t t in g a t t h e g a te y o u
c a n ’ t g e t t h e r e i n t h e o ff ic e if y o u w e r e n o t p r o A N C a n d a s a r e s u l t
t h e n I - m y c a t t le g o t s ic k , i n t h a t o ffi c e t h e r e i s a S t a t e v e t a n d u s u a ll y
w e d o n ’ t p a y fo r th e S t a t e v e t b e c a u s e t h e S t a t e v e t i s p a i d b y t h e
10

G o v e r n m e n t , w e ju s t g o t o th e S t a te v e t a n d c o n s u l t w h e n w e d o h a v e
p r o b le m w it h c a t t le . T h e n I w a s d e n i e d a c c e s s t o t h e S t a t e v e t , a f t e r a
w h il e I g o t th e l a d y w h o w a s a n a d mi n is tr a t o r, th e o ld l a d y i n t h a t o ffic e
o n t h e s tr e e t , I a s k h e r t o g iv e m e t h e p h o n e n u m b e r s o f t h e S t a te v e t
a n d t h e n s h e p h o n e d m e t h e f o l lo w in g d a y a n d g iv e m e t h e p h o n e
n u m b e r s o f t h e S t a t e v e t . T h e n I p h o n e d t h e S t a t e v e t a n d g a v e th e m
t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s o f t h e c a t tl e o n h o w t h e y w e r e d y in g t h e n s h e
d e s c r ib e d m e t h e m e d i c a t io n o f t h e c a tt l e . U n fo r t u n a t e ly b y t h a t t i m e
I’ v e a lr e a d y lo s t 4 5 h e a d s o f c a t tl e a n d m o s t o f t h e m t h e y w e r e h e a v y
p r e g n a n t a n d t h e S t a t e v e t d ia g n o s e d t h a t m y c a tt l e w e r e s u ffe r i n g fr o m

20

s o m e s e r i o u s s i c k n e s s w h i c h q u ic k ly t u r n e d i n t o r e d w a t e r b u t w h e n i t
b e g in s i t lo o k s l ik e t h e ( in d i s ti n c t) t h e n h e g a v e m e s o m e p r e s c r ip t io n .
J u s t a ft e r t h a t p r e s c r i p t i o n t h e n , m y c a t t le t h e n s t o p p e d s ic k i n g .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S t o p p e d d y in g ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : S t o p p e d d y i n g y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t n o t e t h a t a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e w h e n y o u c a l le d t h e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
m e d i a a b o u t t h e c a t tl e th a t w e r e d y i n g o n t h e d a ir y f a r m , i t w a s 4 5
c a t tl e a n d y o u a l s o lo s t 4 5 h e a d o f c a t t le .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

C h a ir, m i n e – I e v e n c o u n t e d th e m ,

t h a t ’s w h y th e e x t e n s io n o ff ic e r d id – I d id h a v e h is n u m b e r s a n d h e
h a d m y n u m b e r s . W h e n m y c a t t l e d ie d I p h o n e d h i m t o c o m e a n d ta k e
t h e p ic t u r e s , t h a t ’s w h e n h e s a id t o m e , I ’ v e b e e n s tr ip p e d o f t h e r i g h ts
o f d r iv i n g – t o d r i v e t h e c a r fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t s o I c a n n o t g e t in t o
y o u r f a r m t o g o a n d h a v e t h e p i c t u r e s a n d w i tn e s s t h e c a t tl e . T h e b e s t
t h i n g th a t y o u c a n d o t h e n , t a k e s o m e p i c t u r e s b r in g th e m t o m e s o t h a t
10

I c a n s e e w h a t I c a n d o . T h a t ’s t h e n , w h e n I t o o k t h e p i c tu r e s a n d –
b u t w h e n I g o t to h i m I a s k e d h i m , i s t h e r e a n y, m a y b e a d is a s tr o u s
r e l i e f g r a n t f r o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t, th e n h e s a id th e y d o n ’t h a v e s u c h
t h i n g . T h o s e o n e – i f y o u li n k th e s e t w o , 4 5 a n d t h a t o t h e r 4 5 , m a y b e
t h e c a r c a s s e s t h a t ( i n d is t in c t ) b u t I d o h a v e p ic tu r e s o f a ll o f t h e m ,
e v e n t h e o n e fr o m t h e d a ir y, y o u c a n s e e y o u r s e l f , t h e o n e fr o m t h e
d a ir y t h e y w e r e n o t l e s s t h a n 4 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : M in e a r e e x a c tly 4 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Th a n k y o u M r R a d e b e . Is th e r e a n y t h i n g r e a lly t h a t

s t il l n e e d s t o b e c o v e r e d , y o u s ti ll n e e d to c o v e r ?
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e r e ’s j u s t o n e i s s u e C h a ir, t h a t w h e n w e
c o n s u l t e d w i th y o u i n Vr e d e t h e r e w a s a g r o u p o f m e n t h a t w a l k e d t o
t h e v e n u e w h e r e th e c o n s u l t a ti o n w a s ta k in g p l a c e . Ar e a n y o f th e s e
e n f o r c e r s p a r t – w e r e a n y o f t h e s e e n fo r c e r s p a r t o f t h a t g r o u p ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

C h a ir w h e n w e w e r e s i t ti n g in t h a t

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r o o m , t h e f ir s t ti m e y o u c a m e t o Vr e d e , o n e o f th o s e p e o p l e , o f t h a t
g r o u p w h i c h a s s a u l te d m e , i t w a s Fr a n s M a g w e n a w h o g o t , th e n t h e
o th e r o n e a r e h i s f r i e n d s , t h e y w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d in … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t Fr a n s M a g w e n a w a s o n e o f t h e m ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Ye s F r a n s M a g w e n a w a s t h e r e .

I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u ’ d li k e to s h a r e

w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s I d o .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s p r o c e e d .
10

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, t h e r e a r e th r e e

c a s e s w i th r e g a r d s t o th is d a ir y – Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t s c a m , t h o s e
c a s e s i n c l u d e s m u r d e r t h e y a r e r e l a t e d i n m u r d e r.

T h e f ir s t m u r d e r

w h ic h d id h a p p e n I t h i n k i t w a s i n 2 0 1 3 w h e r e a g u y w a s h ij a c k e d , I
d o n ’t k n o w k i d n a p p e d o r h i ja c k e d b y th e n a m e o f M o s e s C h a u k e , h e
w a s – i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 a n d th e n h e e v e n tu a l ly d i e d i n 2 0 1 5 , a r o u n d
there – I mean in May 2013.

H e w a s h ij a c k e d in Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 3 t h e n

d i e d i n t h e h o s p i t a l , t h e s a m e y e a r in M a y a n d t h e g u y w a s w o r k i n g i n
t h e o ffic e o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d h e w a s a g a i n s t t h is
d a ir y t h i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is d a ir y f a r m p r o je c t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

Ye s , a n d u p t o s o f a r I f o l l o w e d h is

s t o r y, t h e p e r p e tr a to r s , e v e n to d a y th e y a r e n o t a r r e s te d .
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they are known?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

No not yet because he was

( in d is ti n c t) I ju s t r e a d ( i n d i s t i n c t) s t o r y o n t h e n e w s p a p e r h e w a s i n

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
B e t h l e h e m b u t t h e o t h e r t w o w h ic h I’ ll s p e a k – I w il l t a lk a b o u t n o w a r e
t h o s e t w o c a s e s , I w o r k e d o n t h o s e t w o c a s e s p e r s o n a ll y, h a n d s - o n , I
k n o w w h a t w a s g o in g o n i n t h o s e c a s e s . T h e f ir s t c a s e i s t h e c a s e o f
t h e g u y i n W a r d e n , h e w a s m y fr ie n d , w h e n I g o t to W a r d e n – Wa r d e n i s
o n e o f t h e ( i n d is ti n c t) M p u m e l e la , I u s e d t o g o t o h i m t h e n , h is n a m e
w a s Vu s i M la b a , h e w a s a ls o a f a r m e r th e n h e – th e y w e r e n o t in g o o d
t e r m s w i t h M r Z w a n e b e c a u s e I b e l i e v e if t h a t g u y – th a t g u y w a s a ls o
a n e m e r g in g f a r m e r, h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n c l u d e d in t h i s p r o j e c t o f
t h e d a ir y m il k , b u t b e c a u s e n o w h e w a s s t a n d i n g o n t h e o p p o s i t e s i d e
10

t h e n h e w a s n o t i n c l u d e d b u t I k n o w h e w a s a n e m e r g in g f a r m e r. T h e
g u y w a s k i ll e d , w a s m o w e d d o w n w i t h p l e n t y b u l l e ts , I w o r k e d o n h is
c a s e th e n h is c a s e I c a n a s s u r e y o u i t w a s a p u r e c o v e r - u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll h o w f a r a r e t h e p o l ic e w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g h i s
m u r d e r, d o y o u k n o w ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

T h e c a s e j u s t d i s a p p e a r e d , th e

in v e s t i g a t o r k e p t o n d u c k i n g , d u c k i n g t h e n e v e n t u a ll y n e v e r s u r fa c e d i n
Wa r d e n , t h e n th e c a s e w a s – t h e c a s e e n d u p lik e th a t , n o - o n e w a s
a r r e s t e d ti ll t o d a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o w a s t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r, d o y o u k n o w ?
20

M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : I c a n s p e a k t o t h e f a m ily o f th a t g u y
t h e n m a y b e t h e y c a n g i v e m e t h e e x a c t n a m e b u t t h e in v e s ti g a t o r w a s
fr o m B e t h le h e m i t w a s n o t a p e r s o n f r o m W a r d e n , i t w a s a s p e c i a l
p e r s o n fr o m B e t h l e h e m , t h a t c a s e d is a p p e a r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e t h ir d c a s e , o r w a s t h a t t h e t h ir d c a s e ?
M R A LB E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h a t w a s t h e s e c o n d c a s e , t h e n th e r e

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– th e t h ir d c a s e i s th e c a s e w h ic h h a p p e n e d la s t y e a r o f M r P h i le m o n
N g w e n y a , i t h a p p e n e d i n Vr e d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s , I – w e l l I’v e b e e n t o ld a b o u t t h a t o n e .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : H e w a s o n e o f t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h e f ir s t o n e y o u m e n ti o n e d a l s o I ’v e b e e n to ld
about yes.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E :

H e w a s k il le d l a s t y e a r in O c t o b e r.

T h e n t h e p o l ic e w e r e w o r k in g o n th e c a s e , th e c a s e w a s tr a n s fe r r e d t o
N PA in th e p r o v i n c e , t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o w e r e w o r k in g o n th e c a s e
10

b u t o n t h e g r o u n d t h e r e is t h i s - o n e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t w e m u s tn ’ t ta k e
f o r g r a n t e d is t h e p u b li c o p in io n , i t ’s n o t tr u e b u t y o u m u s t fo ll o w i t a n d
s e e w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g . Th a t c a s e e v e n t o d a y t h e p e o p l e w h o k i ll e d M r
P h il e m o n N g w e n y a a r e n o t a r r e s t e d . I f y o u g o t o Vr e d e , y o u l o o k h o w
s m a ll i s Vr e d e a n d y o u lo o k a t t h e r e s o u r c e s t h a t th e p o l ic e h a v e , in
o r d e r t o in v e s ti g a t e c a s e s y o u b e c o m e s u s p ic io u s th a t t h e r e is
s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s li k e a c o v e r u p o n t h e s e c a s e , e v e n t o d a y, t h e
p e r p e tr a to r s o r t h e p e o p l e w h o k il le d M r Ph il e m o n N g w e n y a h a v e n ’ t
b e e n a r r e s te d y e t . T h e y a r r e s te d t w o g u y s t h e y s a y t h e r e ’s n o t e n o u g h
e v i d e n c e t h e n th e c a s e w a s t h r o w n o u t o f c o u r t b u t e v e n t o d a y t h e r e is

20

no progress.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Th o s e w e r e th e th r e e
c a s e s y o u w a n te d to t a l k a b o u t ?
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : Ye s C h a ir, m a y b e – th e o t h e r o n e is
in 2 0 1 7 , i t w a s th e e n d o f 2 0 1 7 i n M p u m e l e l o M u n ic i p a l s t o r e r o o m s d id
s u r f a c e f o u r b r a n d n e w R a n g e R o v e r s a n d w h e n w e f o l l o w e d o n th a t

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
case we found that there was a docum ent from the Department of
A g r ic u l t u r e w h i c h s a id th o s e c a r s w e r e b o u g h t b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e t o fu n d th e fa r m e r s w i t h t w o R a n g e R o v e r s t h e n I d o n ’ t
k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t c a s e c a n f a l l i n t h i s C o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e u p t o n o w
t h e n t h e c o m m u n i ty, e v e r y b o d y, w e a r e a t a l o s s , w e d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t
h a p p e n e d w i th t h a t c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o I s u g g e s t t h a t y o u s p e a k to t h e le g a l te a m

a n d th e i n v e s ti g a to r s , g i v e th e m w h a t e v e r i n f o r m a t i o n y o u h a v e o f
c a s e s t h a t y o u t h i n k s h o u l d b e b r o u g h t t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f th e
10

C o m m i s s i o n , t h e y w il l lo o k a t th e m a n d t h e y w il l k n o w i f t h e y f a l l
o u t s i d e o f w h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n i s l o o k i n g a t o r n o t .
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : O k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E:

O k a y, m a y b e f o r th e l a s t o n e C h a ir,

I’ ll a s k t h e C o m m i s s i o n – I t h i n k th is is t h e l a s t r e s o r t f o r u s a s w h is tl e
b l o w e r s a n d p e o p l e o n th e g r o u n d t o s p e a k to a n d m a y w e p l e a s e , th e
C o m m i s s i o n lo o k a t o n e o f th e s p e c if ic t h i n g s o r t h e h a r a s s m e n t t h a t
t h e w h is t le b l o w e r s g e t , i t ’s n o t j u s t t h e p h y s ic a l o n e , th e s e t h i n g s g o
d e e p – d e e p , d e e p , d e e p a n d i t p u t s t h e li v e s o f t h e p e o p l e w h o s p e a k
20

o u t a t r is k a n d m o s t o f t h e ti m e t h e n w e li v e i n fe a r a n d i t ’s n o t g o o d to
liv e i n fe a r in a d e m o c r a t ic c o u n t r y a s i f y o u a r e l a w l e s s n e s s c o u n tr y, I
t h i n k t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n , m a y y o u p l e a s e lo o k o n t o th a t t h i n g , i t
d o e s n ’t e ff e c t i n d i v i d u a ls a s s u c h a l o n e , i t a ls o a ff e c ts p e o p l e w h o a r e
c lo s e t o t h e in d iv i d u a l w h o w a s s p e a k i n g o u t . T h a t w il l b e m y h u m b l e
p l e a t o th e C o m m i s s i o n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o , I t h in k t h a t ’s v e r y i m p o r t a n t, i t’s a p o i n t t h a t
h a s b e e n m a d e b y o t h e r s w h o h a v e c o m e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n a s
w e ll .

I f y o u h a v e a n y in f o r m a t io n r e la t i n g to , w h a t y o u r e f e r t o a s

h a r a s s m e n t o f w h is tl e b l o w e r s a n d t h o s e a r o u n d t h e m , a ls o ta lk to t h e
le g a l t e a m s o th a t m a y b e a n o th e r s ta t e m e n t c a n b e p r e p a r e d w h i c h c a n
b e s e n t t o t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d y o u i n d ic a t e w h a t y o u ’ d li k e t o h i g h l ig h t
t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n to s u c h h a r a s s m e n t.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v in g c o m e t o g iv e

e v i d e n c e , b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n , w e a r e g r a t e f u l t o y o u f o r h a v in g
d o n e t h a t, i f a n e e d a r is e s y o u w ill b e c o n t a c t e d a n d a s k e d t o c o m e
b a c k a g a i n b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g f o r w a r d . Yo u a r e
e x c u s e d f o r n o w.
M R A L B E R T D O C TO R R A D E B E : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e g o i n g t o t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w, th e

ti m e is t w e n ty - f iv e to t w e l v e , t h e – I’ ll t a k e a t w e n t y m in u te r a t h e r th a n
a f i f te e n - m in u t e t e a b r e a k , w e ’l l r e s u m e a t fi v e t o t w e l v e . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M o r n i n g a g a in D C J .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D C J w e a r e p r e p a r i n g t o l e a d th e e v i d e n c e o f
M s W i ll ie o r W i ll ie B a s s o n .

Th is m o r n i n g h e a s k e d f o r a n i n te r p r e t e r

w h o c o u l d a s s is t h i m w i t h th e tr a n s l a ti o n fr o m E n g l is h to A f r i k a a n s ,
A fr ik a a n s t o E n g l is h .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t w a s a r r a n g e d t h is m o r n in g b u t I b e l i e v e
t h e in t e r p r e t e r h a s n o t ta k e n th e o a t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

The relevant oath yet.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

S o I w i ll r e q u e s t D C J is t h a t w e j u s t s t a n d

d o w n u n ti l w e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e f o r m a li ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e n w e w il l r e s u m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o a lr i g h t w e w i ll – I w i ll s ta n d th e m a t t e r d o w n
s o t h a t t h o s e f o r m a li ti e s c a n b e d o n e b e f o r e w e c a n p r o c e e d .
H o p e fu ll y f i ft e e n m i n u te s s h o u l d b e e n o u g h .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e w i ll le t y o u k n o w a s s o o n a s it is s o r t e d
out DCJ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e a d jo u r n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
MEETING ADJOURNS

20

HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s G c a b a s h e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a i r ma n . O u r n e x t w i t n e s s is a
M r W i ll ie B a s s o n h e h a s r e q u e s te d t h e s e r v ic e s o f a n i n t e r p r e t e r w h o
w i ll tr a n s l a te f o r h i m fr o m E n g lis h t o A f r ik a a n s , A fr ik a a n s t o E n g li s h
C h a ir m a n .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e – I h a v e a d m i n is t e r e d th e a p p r o p r ia t e o a t h
t o t h e i n te r p r e t e r w h o w il l i n te r p r e t fo r u s in t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s . T h a n k
you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e Ex h i b it b u n d l e C h a i r m a n is E x h i b i t H H 7 .
W e w i ll a l s o m a k e a b r i e f r e f e r e n c e t o t h e m e d i a b u n d l e C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th e f il e c o n t a i n i n g t h e s t a te m e n t o f Mr W il li e

B a s s o n I a m s a y in g W i lli e B a s s o n m a y b e i t is W i ll ie B a s s o n w i ll b e
marked Exhibit HH7
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:
10

C h a i r mi g h t I j u s t a g a i n s a y t h a t t h e r e is a

t e m p l a te t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d i n t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f th e s e a ffi d a v it s .

We

c o n c e d e i t i s n o t a s w o r n a ff i d a v i t a n d w e w i ll m a k e s u r e th a t a n y n e w
o n e s t h a t c o m e ju s t r e f e r to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W il l e i th e r b e a s w o r n s t a te m e n t o r j u s t a ff i d a v i t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

In d e e d s o . A ll I a m p o i n ti n g o u t is w e h a v e

t a k e n t h e le s s o n . T h a n k y o u D C J .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . M r B a s s o n ’s e v i d e n c e r e v o lv e s a r o u n d
t h r e e m a jo r a r e a s D C J .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

T h e o n e h e – t h e – h is o b s e r v a ti o n s o n t h e

m a c h in e r y a n d e q u i p m e n t t h a t w a s u s e d t o c o n s tr u c t t h e p r o c e s s in g
p l a n t a t t h e Vr e d e d a ir y f a r m .

T h e s e c o n d w il l b e d e a l in g w i t h t h e

d e a t h o f c a tt l e a n d h is r o l e i n a s s is ti n g i n t h a t r e g a r d . T h e t h ir d o n e
w i ll b e a b o u t t h e p e o p l e h e e n c o u n t e r e d o n t h e fa r m . S o t h e r e a r e o n e
o r t w o c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t p ie c e s o f e v id e n c e y o u w i ll b e a b l e t o g e t

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fr o m t h is w i t n e s s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M r B a s s o n d o y o u h a v e E x h ib i t H H …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g e t h i m s w o r n o r le t h i m d o a n a ffir m a t i o n fir s t
is i t n o t ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h e i n te r p r e t e r w i ll i n te r p r e t t h e o a t h a s w e ll .

M r I n te r p r e t e r y o u c a n u s e t h e m i c r o p h o n e o n t h i s s i d e . J a s t a n d u p .
J a p u t i t o n . Ye s . Yo u w il l i n te r p r e t th e o a t h a s w e l l.
10

R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : W il le m B a s s o n Mr C h a ir.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c t i o n i n t o ta k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
MR WILLEM BASSON: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry what was the answer?
20

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s M y L o r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Th e w i t n e s s i s s w o r n i n Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ? D o e s th e
in t e r p r e t e r h a v e a s e p a r a t e c o p y o f Ex h ib i t H H ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: He does DCJ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

M r B a s s o n i f w e l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t th a t

y o u h a v e p r e s e n te d t o t h e c o m m is s i o n c o u ld y o u p le a s e g o to p a g e 1 o f
that document?
10

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h o s e n a m e is r e c o r d e d o n p a g e 1 ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : M y n a m e s Mr C o m m is s i o n e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

T h a n k y o u . I f y o u t h e n g o to p a g e 6 o f t h e

s a m e d o c u m e n t . T h e fir s t s ig n a tu r e j u s t b e l o w p a r a g r a p h 2 2 w h e r e t h e
word deponent appears, whose signature is that?
MR WILLEM BASSON: I am just perusing for page 6. I do have it.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Whose?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e s ig n a t u r e a p p e a r i n g h e r e i t is
mine.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

O n w h a t d a t e d id y o u d e p o s e t o t h is

d o c u m e n t a n d w h e r e d i d y o u d e p o s e to it ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

It w a s o n t h e 2 6 J u n e a n d in Vr e d e

C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Ye s th a n k y o u .

Mr Basson are there any

c o r r e c t io n s e v e n i f t h e y a r e m i n o r c o r r e c ti o n s t h a t y o u w is h t o m a k e t o

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
t h e s t a te m e n t ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n I d e li v e r e d m il li o n r a n d fo d d e r fo r
them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I a m s o r r y. Yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e u n d e r s t o o d w h a t
t h e q u e s ti o n w a s . Th e q u e s ti o n w a s w h e t h e r th e r e a r e a n y c o r r e c ti o n s
in y o u r a ff i d a v i t th a t y o u w o u l d li k e t o b r i n g t o m y a t t e n t io n ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : T h e r e is n o t h in g C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir p e r s o n I w i ll – w e w il l t a k e – i t is a v e r y
10

m i n o r o n e a n d w e c a n d e a l w i th it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I n t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t r e a ll y is n o t a m a t e r i a l c h a n g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . M r B a s s o n w h e r e d o y o u liv e ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

C h a i r p e r s o n I r e s id e i n Vr e d e , 6 1 G a r r i c k

S tr e e t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Do you have a home in any other town?
20

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I d o M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: A n d is th e r e a n y t h i n g o f i n t e r e s t – t h a t m i g h t
b e o f i n te r e s t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n in r e la t i o n t o w h e r e y o u l iv e – w h e r e
y o u r o t h e r h o m e is a n d w h o y o u r n e i g h b o u r s m i g h t b e ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : N o C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M r B a s s o n y o u r b u s i n e s s p r e m is e s w h e r e a r e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
t h o s e lo c a t e d ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

I d o my b u s i n e s s i n n u m b e r 1 K e r k s tr a a t i n

S t a n d e r t o n – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n i n Vr e d e .

And I do have another

b u s i n e s s in Vr e d e – i n S t a n d e r to n Vr y s tr a a t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . D o y o u h a v e a h o m e i n W a r d e n ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

Chairperson I do have a home as well as a

b u s i n e s s in Wa r d e n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . H o w f a r i s y o u r b u s in e s s fr o m t h e Vr e d e
d a ir y f a r m in t e r m s o f k il o m e tr e s ?
10

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : A m a x i m u m o f 8 k i l o m e tr e s Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

A n d h e r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o t h e d is t a n c e

b e t w e e n Vr e d e To w n a n d th e Vr e d e d a ir y f a r m .
MR WILLEM BASSON: Indeed so My Chairperson.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

H o w lo n g h a v e y o u b e e n c o n d u c t in g t h e

b u s i n e s s o f a c o n s tr u c ti o n c o m p a n y in Vr e d e ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Fr o m 1 9 8 7 . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n fr o m 1 9 7 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y y o u d o n o t n e e d to c o m e c l o s e to t h e

m ic r o p h o n e . B u t y o u m u s t n o t b e t o o f a r b u t i f y o u a r e w h e r e y o u a r e i t
s h o u l d b e a b le t o w o r k w e l l. Ye s .
20

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I d o u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Yo u a l s o in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 5
r e fe r to h ir i n g o u t e a r t h m o v i n g e q u i p m e n t, p l a n t a n d m a c h i n e r y.

Is

t h a t p a r t o f t h e c o n s t r u c ti o n c o m p a n y ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I n d e e d M y L o r d . I n d e e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e a f a r m e r a n d y o u a r e w e l l v e r s e d i n

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
c a t tl e fa r m i n g y o u s a y ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : H o w lo n g h a v e y o u b e e n a f a r m e r ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n fr o m 2 0 0 0 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d d o y o u f a r m i n d a ir y c o w s o r i n w h a t i s
c o l l o q u ia lly c a ll e d r e d m e a t c a t t le .
MR WILLEM BASSON:

I d o b u s i n e s s w it h m e a t c o w s a s w e l l a s a

game.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll a s ?
10

MR WILLEM BASSON: As well as game.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : M a y I s a y s o m e t h i n g C h a ir p e r s o n ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WILLEM BASSON:

I h a v e j u s t s o l d th e f a r m r e c e n tl y w i t h th e

cows.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Is t h i s t h e g a m e f a r m o r th e c a t tl e f a r m ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n b o t h . B o th o f th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

H a v e y o u e v e r h a d a n y i n t e r e s t in d a ir y

f a r m in g ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: No.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: But you say you know the farmers who in the
f a r m in g c o m m i t t e e ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: I do have knowledge about the others who are

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e m i lk c o w s b u t m y s e l f I fo r o n e I d o n o t h a v e
any one.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Ye s .

Th e r e a r e f o u r f a r m e r s – c o m m e r c i a l

f a r m e r s w h o w e r e l e a s i n g t h e K r y n a a u w s l u s t f a r m i n th e m u n i c i p a l it y,
do you know them?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s I d o C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

Th e y a r e th e o n e s w h o w e r e m o v e d o ff t h e

p r o p e r ty a n d th e Vr e d e d a ir y fa r m w a s t h e n e s t a b l is h e d o n th a t s a m e
farm.
10

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : J a i t i s c o r r e c t s o . Ye s i t is c o r r e c t s o o n e o f
t h e f a r m s C h a ir p e r s o n i t is K r y n a a u w s l u s t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

W e r e th o s e p a r ti c u la r c o m m e r c i a l fa r m e r s

d a ir y f a r m e r s ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: No.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: O k a y. L e t u s t a l k a b o u t E s t in a a n d t h e Vr e d e
d a ir y f a r m .

Yo u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e c o n t a c te d in o r a b o u t 2 0 1 2 b y

p e o p l e w h o w a n t e d y o u t o a s s is t a t t h e d a i r y f a r m .
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : J a i t is s o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: I t h in k i t w il l b e o f in t e r e s t to t h e C h a ir m a n to
20

k n o w if it is t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e r u n n in g a n d o p e r a t in g a n d m a n a g i n g
t h e d a ir y f a r m w h o c o n t a c te d y o u o r c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t s e t o f p e o p l e .
MR WILLEM BASSON:

C P P r a s a d C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h is p e r s o n w a s

fr o m I n d ia .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h a t d id h e a s k y o u t o a s s is t w i th ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

H e w a n t e d m e t o c o m e a n d h e lp a t t h e fa r m

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
w i t h r o a d s , d a m s w h ic h w a s – w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e b u il t o n t h e f a r m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

R o u g h l y w h e n m i g h t th is h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 2 ,

2 0 1 3 I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u c a n r e c a ll ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: I am not so sure about the date or the year but
it w a s a r o u n d 2 0 1 2 to 2 0 1 3 I a m n o t c e r ta i n a b o u t t h e e x a c t ti m e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

T h e c o m m i s s io n h a s h e a r d e v i d e n c e t h a t b y

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 th e b a s ic f a r m w a s u p a n d r u n n i n g . W o u l d y o u a g r e e
t h a t b y D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 t h e f a r m i ts e l f t h e o p e r a t i o n s w e r e u p a n d
r u n n in g ?
10

M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : N o t in f u l l o p e r a t i o n C h a ir p e r s o n p a r tl y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I a m s a tis f i e d w i t h t h a t a n s w e r b u t w o u ld li k e
y o u t o e x p la i n w h e r e y o u t h e n fi t te d i n a n d t h e s e r v ic e s y o u p r o v id e d
fi t t e d in t o e s t a b l is h i n g t h is fa r m ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

Ye s i n d e e d s o w e w e r e b u s y o r I w a s b u s y

b u il d in g u p a b u il d – a b i g s t o r e o r I b e g y o u r p a r d o n – I b e g y o u r
p a r d o n C h a ir p e r s o n I ju s t w a n t t h e c o r r e c t n a m e f o r
CHAIRPERSON: A shed.
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I th a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A shed.
20

CHAIRPERSON: A shed.
MR WILLEM BASSON:

A shed.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A s h e d o h o k a y.
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : A b i g s h e d th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : J u s t to a s s i s t y o u i n r e c o ll e c ti n g th e e v e n ts i n

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
a c h r o n o l o g ic a l o r d e r w h e n I lo o k a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u t a l k a b o u t
e n l a r g i n g th e d a m o n t h e fa r m . W o u l d y o u h a v e d o n e t h a t b e f o r e y o u
b u il t h e s h e d ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: No.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

S o y o u p u t t h e s h e d u p b e f o r e y o u b u il t t h e

dam?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : B u il t th e d a m . I n d e e d s o C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u a ls o s p e a k a b o u t l e v e ll in g t h e p l a c e o u t
a n d c o m p a c t in g th e f a r m s u r f a c e . W o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n o n e o f th e fir s t
10

t a s k s y o u u n d e r to o k ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

When you were working on the farm were

t h e r e a n y c a t t le a t a ll o n t h e f a r m ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: Many of them.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o w le t u s t a k e t h is s l o w ly p l e a s e M r B a s s o n .
S o y o u s t a r t o ff b y a r r i v i n g a n d c o m p a c t i n g t h e g r o u n d a n d l e v e l li n g it .
W e r e th e r e c a t tl e o n th e fa r m w h e n y o u w e r e d o in g th a t ?
MR WILLEM BASSON:

C h a i r p e r s o n t h e c a t tl e w e r e a l r e a d y o n t h e

f a r m b e c a u s e t h e y – t h e y a r e g o in g – t h e y a r e b e i n g m i lk e d – a t t h e
20

ti m e w h e n t h e y a r e m il k e d C h a i r p e r s o n th e y f o r m e d a c ir c l e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE: When – when you observed that am I correct
t o s a y th a t th e m il k i n g s h e d h a d n o t b e e n s e t u p y e t ?

T h e m i lk

p r o c e s s in g p l a n t , t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g t h e r e w h ic h i s w h y y o u w e r e
c o m p a c t in g th e g r o u n d ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : T h e r e w a s a s m a ll s h e d w i t h a li t tl e c o n c r e te .

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ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

H a d y o u b e e n t o th is f a r m b e fo r e y o u w e r e

in v i te d t o g o t h e r e b y M r P r a s a d ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n in d e e d s o I w a s th e r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: S o w e r e th e b u i l d i n g s y o u d e s c r ib e w h e n y o u
c a m e t o c o m p a c t t h e p la c e t h e r e a lr e a d y ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: No.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t is f in e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g p r i o r t o th is v is it t o t h e fa r m h a d y o u b e e n –
h o w l o n g b e fo r e h a d y o u b e e n t o t h e fa r m b e f o r e th is p a r t ic u l a r v is i t ?
10

MR WILLEM BASSON:

I w a s a b o u t th r e e to f o u r y e a r s b e f o r e t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r t i m e C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e m y d u ti e s o r m y c o n tr a c t is li n k e d
t o r e p a ir t h e m u n ic i p a l i ty th in g s a s w e l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t t h e f a r m w a s o w n e d b y p r i v a t e i n d iv id u a ls
b e f o r e i t w a s b o u g h t b y E s ti n a , a m I c o r r e c t ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: No.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h o – w h o o w n e d t h e f a r m b e f o r e i t w a s s o ld
– t h e fa r m a n d I a m ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e f a r m w i t h t h e b u il d i n g s t h a t w e r e
t h e r e b e f o r e i t w a s s o l d t o Es t i n a ?
20

MR WILLEM BASSON:

C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s t h e m u n i c i p a l it y a n d t h e

p e r s o n w h o w a s i n th e fo r e fr o n t o f th a t w a s K r y n a a u w s l u s t f a r m in g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE:

C a n I j u s t s p e ll t h a t C h a ir m a n ?

I t is

K r y n a a u w s l u s t fa r m .
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s i t is c o r r e c t s o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E:

H a d t h e m u n i c i p a li ty b e e n l e a s in g t h a t f a r m

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
o u t t o p r iv a te in d iv i d u a ls p r i o r t o E s t in a a r r iv i n g ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I n i t ia ll y C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s n o t a p r iv a te p e r s o n
w h o w a s o c c u p y i n g o r w o r k i n g o n t h e f a r m it w a s – i t w a s c o u n c i ll o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M u n ic i p a l i ty fa r m .
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : Ye s i t is s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o a R a a d s le d e is w h a t h e s a id w h o o c c u p i e d
it .
MR WILLEM BASSON: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M e a n i n g t h a t c o u n c il le a d e r s ?
10

MR WILLEM BASSON:

Ja.

T h e y h a d a fa r m e r w h o w a s f a r m i n g f o r

them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s i t b e f o r e E s ti n a , w a s i t l e a s e d t o m e m b e r s o f
t h e c o u n c i l w h o h a d a f a r m e r w h o w a s h e l p in g – w h o w a s r u n n in g i t ?
MR WILLEM BASSON: Krynaauwslust was the one who was occupying
t h e l a n d a n d d o i n g th e f a r m i n g b u t h e w a s d o i n g t h a t f o r t h e
m u n i c i p a li t y.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Th e n y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 8 th a t i n o r a b o u t
M a r c h 2 0 1 3 y o u w e r e a s k e d to a t t e n d t o d r a i n a g e a n d c o n s tr u c ti o n
20

r e l a ti n g t o t h e c a t tl e s h e d s .
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I t is i n d e e d s o C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h a t tr e n c h
it i s a v e r y b i g tr e n c h . T h a t p a r t ic u l a r tr e n c h i t i s b e i n g u s e d t o s u c k
t h e u r i n e o f t h e c a t tl e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Before we proceed.

Mr G c a b a s h e w e n o r m a l ly g o –

b r e a k fo r l u n c h a t o n e b u t w e p r o p o s e t o c o n ti n u e u n til h a l f p a s t o n e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
a n d ta k e th e l u n c h b r e a k fr o m h a l f p a s t o n e to h a lf p a s t t w o .

W o u ld

t h a t b e fi n e w i th y o u M r B a s s o n a n d M r In t e r p r e t e r ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a t w i ll b e fi n e fo r m e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d f o r Mr B a s s o n is th a t fi n e ?
M R W I L L E M B A S S O N : I t is r i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o j u s t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e c a t tl e s h e d s t h a t y o u
w e r e a s k e d t o a s s is t w i th y o u h a v e a n n e x e d a s W B 1 t h e in v o ic e y o u
s e n t t o Es t in a P T Y L i m i t e d . A t p a g e 7 y o u w i ll fi n d t h e i n v o ic e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : 7 w i ll b e w r it t e n 0 7 – W B 0 7 t h a t w i ll b e 7 . A t t h e t o p .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : U n d e r t h e f ir s t ta b , t a b n u m b e r 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u s e e t h e y e ll o w t a b .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u w il l f in d t h e i n v o ic e .
CHAIRPERSON: The yellow tab.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o h is a r e d i ff e r e n t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e y a r e d i ff e r e n t c o l o u r s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . S o j u s t w h e r e n u m b e r 1 i s w r i t te n t h e r e
is a n i n v o ic e t h e r e d a te d th e 2 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

P le a s e a s k t h e p e o p l e w h o p r e p a r e d th e s e t h in g s to

m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a l l h a v e e x a c t ly th e s a m e th i n g i n c l u d in g th e c o l o u r s
o f t h e d iv i d e r s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e w ill d o t h a t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k g o a n d a s s i s t t h e m . Yo u s e e i f t h e d iv i d e r w a s
y e l l o w w i t h th e m i t w o u l d b e e a s y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e a m o u n t o f t h e i n v o ic e i s R 6 3 8 4 . 0 0 .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . I c a n s e e t h a t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e i m p o r t a n t f a c t h e r e is t h a t t h e i n v o i c e
w e n t to E s ti n a ( P ty ) L td .
MR WILLIE BASSON

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It

is

correct

so

C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I point it out Mr Basson because you say
in y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s u b c o n tr a c t o r s .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

C h a ir t h e s u b c o n tr a c t o r s

t h a t th e y h a v e j u s t l e f t a n d t h e y s a i d it i s v e r y e x p e n s iv e a n d t h e y –
10

t h e y a r e o v e r c h a r g e d . T h e r e is s o m e t h i n g w h ic h I w a n t t o m e n t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

A n d th e o t h e r p r iv a t e

c o n tr a c to r is K o o s . I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e h e is h i s …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

Yo u

have

m e n ti o n e d

him

in

your

p a r a g r a p h 6 Mr K o o s E k s t e e n .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

And

you

have

a ls o

mentioned

a

M r A F lo r is – F- L - O - R - I- S .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
20

It is s o a n d t h e y h a d

a n o t h e r c o n tr a c to r a t Es t in a a n d t h e y d id n o t h a v e a n y m a c h i n e r y a n d
t h e y h ir e d m e t o c o m e a n d d o t h e j o b .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o th e c o n tr a c t o r w h o h a d b e e n e m p l o y e d
b y E s t i n a a n d y o u h a v e h e r e m e n ti o n e d E G C o n s tr u c t io n .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : J a , i t is c o r r e c t s o . I t is
c o r r e c t s o C h a ir p e r s o n . I t is K o o s Ek s t e e n .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e y h a d n o m a c h i n e r y. S o y o u b r o u g h t

y o u r s in fr o m y o u r c o m p a n y a n d w o r k e d w i t h t h e m o n t h e p r o p e r t y.
MR WILLIE BASSON

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It

is

correct

so

C h a ir p e r s o n . Th is K o o s C h a ir p e r s o n h e w a s i n e n g i n e e r in g b u t h e d i d
n o t h a v e a n y m a c h in e r y. S o h e h i r e d m e t o c o m e a n d h e l p o u t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u r i n v o i c e s h o w e v e r w e r e n o t t o E G

C o n s tr u c t i o n . A l l y o u r i n v o ic e s w e n t t o E s t in a ( P ty ) L t d .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No.

Th e r e a r e i n v o ic e s

w h ic h I s e n t to K o o s E k s t e e n n o t E G .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e w il l c o m e b a c k t o t h a t b e c a u s e m o s t

o f t h e i n v o ic e s th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n u s h e r e j u s t th e o n e s h e r e a r e
d ir e c t e d e i th e r a t Es t in a ( P t y ) L td o r a t Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c ts . N o w c a n
y o u e x p la i n t o th e C h a ir m a n w h o Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t s a r e ?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
there.

I h a d m y o ffi c e t h e r e .

I c a n ju s t a n s w e r y o u

I h a d a n o ffic e t h e r e a n d a ll m y – m y

in v o ic e s I u s e d to – t o s e n d t h e m o u t to – t o Es t in a n o t E G .
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o , n o . T h a t is n o t w h a t h e s a i d . P l e a s e
– can you please repeat your answer?
20

M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I h a d m y o ffi c e t h e r e a n d
a l l m y in v o ic e s I u s e d to s e n d t h e m t o E s ti n a .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m s o r r y t o - t o r e p e a t th is .

I am

u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u t o s a y M r B a s s o n th a t w h e n y o u w e r e p r e p a r in g t h i s
a ffi d a v i t y o u a s k e d y o u r o ff ic e PA t o s i m p l y p u ll o u t t h e E s ti n a i n v o ic e s
a n d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Fa r m i n v o i c e s a n d t h a t is th e r e a s o n y o u d o n o t

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
h a v e t h e in v o ic e s fr o m t h e o th e r s u b c o n tr a c t o r s . P l e a s e c o r r e c t m e i f
my Afrikaans is so poor that I have misunderstood you.
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

C h a ir p e r s o n a t t h e ti m e

w h e n I r e q u e s te d m y s e c r e t a r y I t o l d h e r o r h i m t h a t I w a n t E s ti n a o r
Vr e d e D a ir y. I d o n o t w a n t E G ’s in v o ic e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t I u n d e r s to o d y o u t o s a y
b u t th a t d o e s n o t e x p l a in to t h e C h a ir m a n w h o Vr e d e D a i r y Pr o j e c ts is .
A r e y o u th e n s a y i n g Vr e d e D a i r y Pr o je c t s w a s r e a lly E s ti n a ( P ty ) L t d ?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

L is t e n Es t in a D a ir y h a s

it s o w n i n v o ic e …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No.
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

A n d Vr e d e D a i r y w a s

t a k e n b y th e p r o v i n c e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m s o r r y C h a ir m a n . I - I a c tu a l ly s p e n t
ti m e a t th e U n i v e r s i t y o f N a t a l .

W e h a d to d o A f r i k a a n s .

It was

c o m p u l s o r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So I do understand.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I a m v e r y p o o r a t s p e a k in g i t b u t I

u n d e r s t a n d it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d M r B a s s o n to s a y

is Es t in a w a s d ie G u p ta s s e w h a t e v e r. I t b e l o n g e d t o th e G u p t a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 67 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

And that has not come through in the

tr a n s l a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o I - I m u s t c o n fe s s I a m n o l o n g e r g o o d in
A fr ik a a n s a s I o n c e w a s w h e n I w a s a t h ig h s c h o o l a n d I t h i n k m y
A fr ik a a n s i s - y o u r s i s d e f in i te ly b e t te r t h a n m i n e b u t th e l o n g e r I h e a r
it t h e b e t t e r I b e c o m e .

I i m p r o v e a ll t h e ti m e .

S o , o k a y.

Now

M r I n t e r p r e t e r j u s t lis t e n c a r e fu ll y t o th e q u e s ti o n s a s w e l l a s t o t h e
answers.
A s y o u - a s y o u h e a r d c o u n s e l i s s a y i n g s h e h e a r d Mr B a s s o n
10

s a y in g c e r t a in t h i n g s w h ic h w e r e n o t tr a n s la t e d a c c u r a t e l y. S o ju s t t r y
y o u r b e s t - a n d I th in k s h e w il l g o b a c k t o t h a t q u e s ti o n - tr y y o u r b e s t
to interpret accurately on both sides.
INTERPRETER: Pardon me Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .

S o y o u m a y g o b a c k to th a t

a s p e c t a n d g e t c l a r if ic a ti o n .
I N T E R P R E T E R : I t h a n k y o u . I t h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

I w il l a ls o tr y a n d k e e p m y q u e s ti o n s

s h o r te r. I t w il l a s s is t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e , j a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I th e n a s k y o u M r B a s s o n t o c o n fir m
what you said?

No.

I a m s o r r y C h a ir m a n t h a t i s n o t t h e q u e s ti o n I

asked.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

O k a y.

Page 68 of 77

Mr I n te r p r e t e r ju s t lis t e n

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
c a r e fu ll y. J u s t i n te r p r e t j u s t w h a t c o u n s e l is s a y i n g a n d n o m o r e a n d
t h e n w h e n M r B a s s o n a n s w e r s ju s t i n t e r p r e t w h a t M r B a s s o n s a y s a n d
n o m o r e . O k a y, a lr ig h t .
I N T E R P R E T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e - le t m e c o n fe s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
I N T E R P R E T E R : I f o r g o t th e n a m e c o n f e s s i n A fr ik a a n s . I a m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
I N T E R P R E T E R : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

INTERPRETER:

I t d o e s n o t c o m e in m y m in d .

I beg your pardon

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . O k a y, a lr ig h t .
INTERPRETER: Pardon me Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w o u ld lik e t o j u s t g e t c la r i ty o n t h is .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u s a i d M r B a s s o n E s t in a b e l o n g e d to

t h e G u p t a s . Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t s o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e n y o u w e r e g o i n g to e x p l a i n w h a t

Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c ts w a s .

Page 69 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h e Vr e d e D a ir y th a t

belongs to the province.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e p r o v i n c e o w n e d Vr e d e D a i r y ?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h e Pr o v i n c e Fr e e S t a t e

fr o m B l o e m f o n t e i n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t a b o u t t h a t ? C o n ti n u e .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

They are the ones who

a r e o p e r a t in g th e f a r m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

S o th e r e w e r e a t o ffi c e s fr o m th e

D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e in B l o e m f o n t e i n ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : C o m e a g a in ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s .

I t is - y e s it is

c o r r e c t s o b u t - b u t I t h i n k th e y d o h a v e a n o t h e r n a m e . I a m n o t s u r e
about it.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

The

other

name

we

know

is

the

D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t s h o r t e n e d t o D A R D D-A-R-D.
INTERPRETER: Shortened to?
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: D-A-R-D DARD.
CHAIRPERSON: A-R-D.
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : C h a ir p e r s o n th e p a r tic u la r
n a m e w h i c h w a s m e n ti o n e d n o w I d o n o t k n o w t h a t n a m e . T h e r e a r e s o
m a n y tr a c t o r s w h i c h a r e s t a n d i n g i n m y p r o p e r ty a n d I w a s o r I a m t h e
o n e w h o i s r e p a ir i n g t h o s e tr a c t o r s f o r th e m .

Page 70 of 77

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Mr B a s s o n I w i ll ju s t a s k . I t c o u l d b e t h e
Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n a l s o w h o - w h o h ir e d y o u r
s e r v ic e s .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s i t m i g h t b e s o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. M o s t i m p o r t a n tly fr o m t h e i n v o ic e s
y o u h a v e a n n e x e d . N o t m e e s t e . A ll o f t h e m u s e d t h e s a m e P O B o x
n u m b e r.
INTERPRETER: P O Box 3?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s P O B o x / P o s b u s 3 4 9 Vr e d e .
10

M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ja.

I t is c o r r e c t s o

b e c a u s e t h e ir o ff ic e s i t is s it u a te d o n t h e d a ir y f a r m o n th e m il k f a r m .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O t h e r t h a n M r Pr a s a d w h o a r e t h e o t h e r

p e o p l e y o u m e t w h e n y o u r e n d e r e d s e r v ic e s a t t h e f a r m ?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : T h e r e w e r e t h r e e G u p t a s .
T h a t is n o w th e h e a d o f th e fa m i ly o f t h e - t h e G u p t a s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e r e p e a t y o u r a n s w e r.
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I h a d t h r e e p e o p l e a t t h e
b o il e r s . T h o s e p e o p l e a r e f r o m I n d i a a n d I w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o t h e m a s
t h e G u p t a s . Is t h e r e a n y t h in g ?
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No. I am …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d s o m e t h in g a b o u t th e h e a d o f th e f a m i ly.

W h a t w a s th a t ?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

C h a i r i t is t h e s e t h r e e

G u p t a s w h ic h w e r e m e n ti o n e d i n th e - i n t h e m e d i a . Yo u - s u r e ly y o u
k n o w a b o u t th e m .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u m e e t a ll … ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o c o m p l e te - s o r r y C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e h a s n o t c o m p l e t e d t h e tr a n s l a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H e c o n t i n u e d t o s a y t h e y a r e fr o m th a t

f a m ily. T h a t is th e fu ll s e n te n c e .
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t - j u s t r e p e a t t h e a n s w e r - t h e f u ll a n s w e r.
10

M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

W h e r e th e b o i le r w a s

s i tu a t e d t h e c o n ta i n e r s w e r e s h i p p e d i n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e b o il e r w a s s h i p p e d i n t o t h e c o u n tr y i n
c o n ta in e r s ?
MR WILLIE BASSON (through interpreter): Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n t in u e .
MR WILLIE BASSON (through interpreter): Three Indians came to me
a n d a t t h a t s ta g e I to o k e v e r y t h i n g o u t o f t h e c o n ta i n e r a n d i t i s a t t h e
ti m e w h e n t h e y c a m e a n d t h e y i n tr o d u c e d th e m s e lv e s t o m e a n d th e s e
p e o p l e w e r e i n tr o d u c e d t o m e b e c a u s e t h o s e p e o p le c a n n o t j u s t s p e a k
20

E n g l is h o r a n y t h i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

S o y o u h a v e m e t M r Pr a s a d .

Yo u

h a v e m e t t h e s e t h r e e p e o p l e w h o w e r e in tr o d u c e d t o y o u a s G u p t a s ?
MR WILLIE BASSON (through interpreter): Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u h a v e a s s o c i a te d y o u r m e e t i n g w it h

t h e G u p t a s w i th th e i n s ta ll a ti o n o f t h e m i lk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t .

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P le a s e

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
c o r r e c t m e if I a m w r o n g .
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ja.

Th e y c a m e th e r e

C h a ir p e r s o n to c o m e a n d b u i ld t h a t t h i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

To c o m e a n d b u il d t h e m ilk p r o c e s s in g

plant.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. A s I s a id m y A f r i k a a n s is - i s n o t g o o d b u t t h e
m o r e A f r ik a a n s I h e a r a n d t h e m o r e A f r ik a a n s I tr y to s p e a k th e b e t te r I
become.

S o M s G c a b a s h e y o u h a v e b e e n v e r y g o o d i n p ic k i n g u p .

I

t h i n k y o u c o n ti n u e t o b e c o n c e r n e d .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m v e r y c o n c e r n e d C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e v e r y c o n c e r n e d ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y w e l l b e t h e r e f o r e t h a t m a y b e w e s h o u l d tr y a n d
g e t a n o t h e r i n t e r p r e te r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W i th a ll d u e r e s p e c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To M r S a g i t t a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I th i n k i t w o u l d s e r v e …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e o b je c tiv e s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n b e t te r

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I f w e d i d d o t h a t j u s t f o r t h is p a r ti c u la r

la n g u a g e .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a i r m a n I b e l ie v e w e c o u l d c r e a t e s p a c e
if w e h a v e to fi r s t t h in g to m o r r o w m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f Mr … w e j u s t n e e d t o ta lk to M r B a s s o n
a n d s e e i f i t i s a m e n a b l e t o h is a r r a n g e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M r I n t e r p r e te r c o u n s e l w h o a s I h a v e s a id
u n d e r s t a n d s A f r i k a a n s b e t t e r t h a n m e c o n t in u e s t o b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t
w h e t h e r y o u a r e a b l e t o in t e r p r e t a c c u r a te ly w h a t th e w it n e s s i s s a y i n g
10

a n d w h a t s o m e t i m e s s h e is p u t t in g to th e w i t n e s s a n d h e r c o n c e r n s a r e
s tr o n g e n o u g h t h a t w e s h o u ld tr y a n d g e t a n o t h e r i n t e r p r e t e r.

Yo u

understand that?
I N T E R P R E T E R : I d o , I d o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

Let me find out from -

y o u c a n t r a n s la t e t h is - l e t m e fi n d o u t fr o m M r B a s s o n w h e t h e r h e
w o u ld b e a v a il a b l e t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g i f w e w e r e to a d j o u r n u n ti l
t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g in o r d e r t o tr y a n d g e t a n o t h e r i n te r p r e t e r.
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . I c a n s le e p o v e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y.

M r In t e r p r e t e r

M r I n t e r p r e t e r i n t e r p r e t w h a t I s a y - s a id .

you

did

not

i n t e r p r e t e r.

W o u l d y o u b e a v a il a b l e t o

c o m e b a c k to m o r r o w m o r n i n g M r B a s s o n i f w e a d j o u r n s o th a t w e c a n
g e t a n o t h e r i n t e r p r e te r ?
M R W I L L I E B A S S O N ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . I w i ll s l e e p o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. N o , n o t h a n k y o u . I t h i n k w e w i ll d o t h a t .
T h e - i n te r m s o f th e s t a r ti n g t i m e t h e w it n e s s t h a t y o u o t h e r w is e h a v e

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
for tomorrow is supposed to take how long?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H e w il l p r o b a b ly t a k e a b o u t t h r e e to f o u r

h o u r s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a c tu a lly h a d t w o s e t d o w n f o r

t o m o r r o w b u t w e c o u l d ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that please.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e - th e fir s t w i t n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is li k e ly t o t a k e t h r e e h o u r s p o s s ib ly f o u r.
T h e r e p o r t h e g o e s th r o u g h is q u i t e a n i m p o r ta n t o n e a n d t h e q u e s ti o n s
a r e d e ta il e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e s e c o n d w i t n e s s h o w e v e r C h a ir m a n w e
m i g h t b e a b l e to s p e a k t o . H e d o e s n o t i m p l ic a t e a n y b o d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w e h a d s q u e e z e d h i m in …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d b e c a u s e h e is J o h a n n e s b u r g b a s e d

20

CHAIRPERSON: Jm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e w i ll a s k h i m v e r y p o li t e ly i f h e e i t h e r

c o u l d c o m e i n th e a f t e r n o o n o r j u s t c o m e w h e n w e c o m e b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w e t h e n d e a l w it h h is e v i d e n c e th e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e h e i s lo c a l I b e l i e v e h e m a y e v e n
b e a b l e j u s t to b e o n s t a n d b y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d c o m e i n w i t h i n a n h o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f a l l i n d ic a ti o n s a r e t h a t w e a r e g o in g t o
fi n i s h b y lu n c h ti m e a n d w e c a n t a k e h is e v i d e n c e a f t e r lu n c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o th a t i s f i n e . S o w h a t ti m e d o y o u s u g g e s t w e
s t a r t to m o r r o w - 1 0 o ’ c lo c k / h a l f p a s t n i n e ?
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

Could

we

start

at

half

past

nine

C h a ir m a n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a lf p a s t n i n e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e i n t e r p r e t a ti o n t a k e s a li t t le lo n g e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m fi n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w e n e e d a b u ff e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

We - we are going to then - we are

g o i n g t o a d j o u r n a n d t o m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e . S o i f y o u
c o u l d b e b a c k h e r e to m o r r o w a t h a lf p a s t n in e Mr B a s s o n .
MR WILLIE BASSON

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

That

is

right

M r C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th a n k - t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

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We - we then

25 JULY 2019 – DAY 140
a d j o u r n f o r n o w.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d a f te r n o o n M r C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

Mr C h a ir m a n t h i s a f te r n o o n

t h e l e g a l t e a m in t e n d e d t o p r e s e n t e v id e n c e o f o n e w i tn e s s b u t
10

u n f o r t u n a t e ly d u e t o c i r c u ms t a n c e s th a t w e r e d is c u s s e d i n C h a m b e r s it
is n o t p o s s ib l e t o d o s o a n d w e a r e n o w s e e k i n g a n a d j o u r n m e n t o f th e
p r o c e e d i n g s u n ti l t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g b e c a u s e I b e l ie v e m y le a r n e d
fr i e n d M s G c a b a s h e s t il l c o n t in u e s w i t h h e r t e a m t o m o r r o w m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . I w a s g o i n g t o h e a r th e e v i d e n c e o f
a c e r t a i n w i tn e s s . Th a t e v i d e n c e c a n n o t b e h e a r d a t t h i s s t a g e a n d i ts
h e a r in g w il l b e p o s t p o n e d u n til fu r t h e r n o ti c e .

S o w e w i ll a d jo u r n f o r

t h e d a y a n d t o m o r r o w w e w il l p r o c e e d w it h t h e e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o t h e
E s ti n a D a ir y Fa r m . W e a d j o u r n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 6 J U LY 2 0 1 9

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