C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 26 AUGUST 2019 D AY 1 4 9 20 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 PROCEEDINGS ON 26 AUGUST 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Pr e t o r i u s . M r Pr e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e h a v e m o d e r n is e d o u r a p p r o a c h D C J w e – it c o u l d g o d ir e c t ly to M s W e n t z e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Mr P r e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar e y o u r e a d y ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h e r e w ill b e tw o w i t n e s s e s t o d a y C h a ir. Mr S i m o n s a n d Mr H l u n g w a n i a n d t h e y w i ll b e le d b y Ms 10 W e n tz e l . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Wentzel. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir i f I c a n b e g i n b y a d d r e s s i n g t h e is s u e o f t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: W i th r e g a r d t o t h e e v id e n c e o f M r S i m o n s . T h e S e c r e t a r ia t … CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether you need to bring the m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r t o y o u o r y o u n e e d to r a is e y o u r v o ic e b u t o n e o f t h e two or both. 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll tr y a n d d o b o th . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th e S e c r e ta r i a t h a s h a d q u i te s o m e d i ffic u lt y tr y i n g t o l o c a t e a n u m b e r o f th e f a m ily m e m b e r s w h o w e r e i m p l ic a te d in M r S i m o n s ’ s t a t e m e n t . T h e m o s t g la r i n g o m is s i o n w a s th a t w i t h r e g a r d t o M r M k o n d i s i Zu m a . H e u n f o r t u n a t e ly w a s b e i n g tr a c e d u n d e r t h a t Page 2 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 name Zuma. I t o n l y l a te r b e c a m e a p p a r e n t t h a t h is n a m e o n h i s ID d o c u m e n t is t h a t o f M t h e t h w a w h ic h is h is m o t h e r ’s n a m e w h o w a s u n m a r r i e d a t t h e t i m e o f h i s b ir th a n d h is f a t h e r is a Z u m a b u t h e c a lls h i m s e l f a Mr Zu m a . S o o n c e h e c o u ld f i n a ll y b e l o c a t e d w h ic h u n f o r t u n a t e ly w a s o n l y l a s t n ig h t w h e n t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r m a n a g e d t o s p e a k to h i m t e l e p h o n i c a lly a n u n s i g n e d c o p y o f t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s s e n t t o h i m a n d t h e n t h i s m o r n i n g o n ly t h e s i g n e d c o p y w e n t f r o m t h e c o m m i s s io n . I t is r e g r e t t a b l e th a t t h a t h a s t r a n s p i r e d b u t u n f o r tu n a te ly those are the facts. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h a t a b o u t o t h e r p e o p l e ? H a v e th e y b e e n s e r v e d w i t h t h e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s ti m e o u s l y ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t M r Z u m a d i d r e c e iv e a n o t ic e . H e d id n o t h o w e v e r g e t t o t w o w e e k s b e f o r e . T h e r e w a s a g a i n u n f o r t u n a t e ly s o m e c o n fu s i o n in o u r o ffi c e s a s to w h o w o u l d i n fa c t b e le a d i n g h is e v i d e n c e b u t a s s o o n a s i t b e c a m e a p p a r e n t t h a t t h a t w i t n e s s w o u ld t e s t i fy to d a y a n d t h a t I w o u l d l e a d in g t h a t e v id e n c e I i m m e d i a t e ly p r e p a r e d R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e s . Yo u w i ll s e e i n t h e s ta t e m e n t r e fe r e n c e i s a ls o m a d e to a M r B u s a Z u m a . H e i s d e c e a s e d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . S o a r e th e r e – s o th e r e a r e a b o u t w h a t t h r e e p e r s o n s o n w h o m R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e s w e r e s e r v e d a t d i ff e r e n t t i m e s ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i n f a c t C h a i r i f I c a n j u s t c o u n t th e m fo r y o u ? N i n e R u l e 3 .3 N o t ic e s w e n t o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: At various times. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w m a n y o f t h o s e g a v e t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s Page 3 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t h e r e q u ir e d p e r i o d o f ti m e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Well … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r h o w m a n y d id n o t g i v e th e m t h e r e q u ir e d ti m e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: W e l l r e g r e tt a b l y n o n e o f th e m g o t t h e f u l l fourteen days. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h e y d i d n o t g e t th a t ti m e . As far as I am a w a r e b e s id e s a r e s p o n s e fr o m M r M a n y i w h o s a i d h e i s p r e p a r e d to c o o p e r a t e w i th t h e c o m m i s s i o n th e r e h a s n o t b e e n a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e 10 o th e r i m p lic a t e d p a r ti e s b u t C h a ir w it h y o u r l e a v e p e r h a p s w h a t – a w a y t h a t w e c o u l d c u r e t h is d e f e c t is s h o u ld t h e y w i s h t o c r o s s - e x a m in e a n y o f t h e s e w i t n e s s e s a n d t h e y b r i n g a n a p p li c a ti o n a n d y o u w e r e t o g r a n t t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n t h a t t h e y th e n b e a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r tu n it y t o c r o s s e x a m in e t h o s e w it n e s s e s a n d t o p u t t h e ir v e r s i o n . A n d to t e s t if y b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n i n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I a m – I a m s t i ll a t t h e q u e s ti o n w h e t h e r th e r e h a s b e e n c o m p li a n c e w i th t h e r e q u ir e m e n t th a t i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s b e g iv e n a c e r ta in a m o u n t o f t i m e a n d i f th e r e h a s b e e n c o m p l i a n c e a n d t h e y w e r e g iv e n t h a t i s fi n e , w e c a n p r o c e e d . 20 I f t h e y w e r e n o t g iv e n who was not given adequate time? How much – by how much time were w e s h o r t a n d ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e . I j u s t w a n t to h a v e c l a r i t y o n th a t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W e ll p e r h a p s I c a n te ll y o u w h e n t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s w e r e s e r v e d . In r e g a r d t o M r M t h e t h w a i t w e n t o n th e 3 0 A u g u s t 2019. CHAIRPERSON: What date? Page 4 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: The 30 August. It must be… CHAIRPERSON: 40th? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh it must be the 30 July they have given me the – the – the – C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 0 J u ly. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y, s o r r y I h a v e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n I a m ju s t l o o k in g a t t h e w r o n g c o l u m n th a t s h e h a s g iv in g m e . I beg your pardon. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t n o t t h e o n e t h a t y o u s a id y o u g o t y e s t e r d a y ? 10 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is th e 1 6 t h . P a r d o n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t n o t t h e o n e ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is s o m e b o d y e ls e ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o t h a t is s o m e o n e e ls e . T h a t w e n t o n th e 1 6 A u g u s t . T h e o n e to t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Z u m a w e n t o n t h e 2 0 A u g u s t. CHAIRPERSON: 20th? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To d a y is w h a t , 2 6 t h ? 20 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: N o o n th e 1 6 t h – a ls o o n t h e 1 6 A u g u s t. w e n t – a ls o w e n t – s o r r y i t w e n t o n t h e 1 6 A u g u s t . It The one to Mr K h u l u b u s e Z u m a w e n t o n th e 2 0 A u g u s t . T h e o n e t o M r Ar c h ie Z o n d o went on the 21 August. Th e o n e t o M r M a n y i w e n t o n t h e 2 0 A u g u s t . T h e o n e t o th is is M k o n d is i Z u m a o r M t h e th w a o n ly w e n t t h is m o r n i n g f o r m a l ly t h e 2 6 A u g u s t a l th o u g h h e d id g e t s ig h t o f it la s t n ig h t a n d to Page 5 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M r J a m e s Z w a n e i t w e n t o n th e 2 1 A u g u s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I t h i n k t h a t i t is n o t s a ti s f a c t o r y. I t m a y b e t h a t – it m a y b e t h a t t h e w i t n e s s s h o u ld g iv e e v i d e n c e i n r e g a r d to t h e M a s e k o is s u e o n ly. I – f o r n o w a n d t h e n h e c a n b e a s k e d m a y b e t o c o m e b a c k la t e r w h e n e v e r y b o d y h a s h a d a d e q u a te n o t ic e a n d h is e v id e n c e a s I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h e s t a t e m e n t s h o u l d n o t t a k e l o n g . S o i t is a w i t n e s s t h a t – h e i s th e w i t n e s s th a t c a n c o m e i n e v e n a t n i n e o ’ c l o c k a n d b e d o n e w it h in a n h o u r o r s o f o r p u r p o s e s o f fi n is h i n g th a t p a r t o f t h e evidence. 10 S o I a m i n c l i n e d t o t h i n k t h a t p r o b a b l y i n f a ir n e s s t o t h e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s w e s h o u l d r e s tr i c t h i s e v i d e n c e t o th e M a s e k o i s s u e a n d i n r e g a r d t o a ll o th e r m a t t e r s h e w o u l d n e e d t o c o m e b a c k s o m e o th e r ti m e w h e n e v e r y i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n h a s h a d e n o u g h ti m e a f te r r e c e i v i n g n o tic e . D o y o u w a n t t o s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t th a t ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr C h a i r – C h a ir m a n I s u b m it t h a t i s a n a p p r o p r i a t e s o l u t i o n a n d it w o u l d – i t w o u l d b e m o r e fa ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d p a r t ic u l a r ly a s o n e w i t n e s s h a s o n ly r e c e i v e d th e n o t ic e t h is m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e w i ll n o t – th e r e w i ll n o t b e a n y p r e j u d ic e t o t h e 20 c o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e h e c a n c o m e b a c k a n d b e fi t te d i n . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n b e f o r e t h e w i t n e s s a l lo c a t e d f o r a p a r tic u la r d a y b e g in s a t t e n o ’c lo c k h e c a n c o m e i n e a r l ie r. S u c h p r e j u d i c e a s t h e r e m a y b e a r e t o t h e w i tn e s s in t h e s e n s e t h a t h e m a y h a v e t o c o m e b a c k t w ic e b u t h e – h e m a y – h e m i g h t u n d e r s t a n d th e s i t u a t io n a n d h e m ig h t Page 6 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 have no problem. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Um. Mr Simons you hear what is going on? Do you h a v e a n y p r o b l e m i f y o u c o m e b a c k s o m e o th e r t i m e t o d e a l w i th o t h e r m a t t e r s o t h e r th a n t h e o n e r e l a ti n g t o Mr M a s e k o ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : A b s o l u te ly n o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o p r o b le m ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : N o p r o b le m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u . O k a y. 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k l e t u s d o i t th a t w a y ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. C h a ir I a m t o l d b y M r P r e t o r iu s a p p a r e n t ly th e r e i s a r e p r e s e n t a ti v e h e r e fr o m o n e o f t h e i m p lic a t e d p a r t i e s . P e r h a p s h e w o u l d j u s t li k e t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t o s a y s o m e th i n g . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Pl a c e h is – h i m s e l f o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 20 ADV YUSUF PEER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . fr o m th e J o h a n n e s b u r g B a r. M y n a m e i s Yu s u f P e e r I h a v e b e e n b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n before. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV YUSUF PEER: F o r M in is t e r N a t h i M t h e t h w a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 7 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 ADV YUSUF PEER: A n d I a m b a c k h e r e a g a i n fo r t h e M i n i s t e r in respect of Mr Simons. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV YUSUF PEER: W e – I a m i n s tr u c t e d b y M a b u z a A t t o r n e y s . We d i d r e c e iv e th e 3 .3 N o t ic e o n th e 1 6 A u g u s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V Y U S U F P E E R : A s m y c o ll e a g u e h a s i n d ic a te d b u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV YUSUF PEER: 10 T h e p o s i ti o n th e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d th e e v i d e n c e le a d e r h a s i n d ic a t e d w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V Y U S U F P E E R : W i th t h e c o m m i s s i o n o n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V Y U S U F P E E R : S o I w il l s a y n o m o r e t h a n th a t fo r n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V Y U S U F P E E R : T h a n k s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u o k a y. A lr ig h t t h e n w e c a n p r o c e e d o n th a t b a s is , is th a t a lr ig h t? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d th e n t h e – t h e o a th o r a ffi r m a ti o n c a n b e a d m i n is te r e d . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Br e n t A d r i a n Si m o n s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? Page 8 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: No. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; th e w h o le tr u th a n d n o t h in g b u t th e t r u th ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s . REGISTRAR: I f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e God? 10 M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : S o h e lp m e G o d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a i r. C h a i r w e h a v e ta k e n t h e li b e r t y o f m a r k i n g t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r S i m o n s Ex h i b it J J 1 a n d w i th y o u r le a v e i f th a t i s s u i ta b le t o y o u if w e c o u ld s u b m i t t h a t in t o th e r e c o r d ? CHAIRPERSON: T h e f il e c o n t a i n i n g t h e a ff id a v i t o f Mr B r e n t A d r i a n S i m o n s w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t J J 1 . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 M r S i m o n s y o u h a v e s u b m i t t e d a s t a te m e n t u n d e r o a t h t o t h e c o m m i s s io n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d E x h ib i t J J 1 in fr o n t o f y o u , is t h a t th e s t a te m e n t th a t y o u s u b m i t te d ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : T h is is th e s t a te m e n t C h a ir. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t w a s … Page 9 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: One second. One second. C a n e v e r y b o d y a t th e back hear? Can everybody at the back hear? Some do hear others do n o t – c a n n o t h e a r. L e t u s tr y a n d r a i s e o u r v o i c e s . O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr S i m o n s c o u ld y o u p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t p o s i t io n s y o u h e l d a n d in – f ir s t le t u s s t a r t w it h h o w l o n g h a v e y o u w o r k e d i n th e p u b l ic s e r v ic e ? M R B R E N T A D R IA N S I M O N S : C h a ir p e r s o n I r o u g h ly w o r k e d i n t h e p u b lic s e r v i c e fo r e ig h t e e n y e a r s m o s t o f t h a t a t t h e l e v e l o f s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t e i t h e r a t t h e le v e l o f D ir e c t o r o r C h i e f D i r e c to r a n d I h a d 10 v a r io u s p o s i ti o n s r a n g i n g fr o m S p o k e s p e r s o n fo r f o r m e r M in is t e r S i d n e y M u f a m a d i t o S p o k e s p e r s o n f o r th e f o r m e r l a te M i n i s te r C o l li n s C h a b a n e b o t h d u r in g h is l a s t fe w m o n t h s in th e Pr e s i d e n c y a s w e l l h is m o n t h s b e f o r e h e p a s s e d o n i n th e p u b lic s e r v i c e a n d a d m i n is tr a t i o n . P r i m a r il y I have… CHAIRPERSON: Okay hang on – hang on. MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s tr u g g li n g t o h e a r y o u m y s e l f n o w. M a y b e i t h a s g o t n o t h in g to d o w i th y o u r v o i c e m i c r o p h o n e m a y b e i t is t h e t e c h n ic ia n s th e y s h o u ld – m a y b e th e r e is s o m e t h i n g t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d 20 to do. T h e y i n d ic a te th a t t h e y d o n o t t h i n k t h e r e is a n y t h i n g w r o n g t e c h n ic a l ly. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr S i m o n s i f y o u c a n … CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e d r a w – d r a w t h e m ic r o p h o n e a l i tt l e c lo s e r t o you. M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : O k a y. Page 10 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y le t u s t r y a g a i n . L e t u s s t a r t w i t h th a t q u e s t io n a g a in ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr S i m o n s i f w e h a v e r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u h a v e s e t o u t a h is t o r y o f w h a t p o s i t io n s y o u h e l d a n d i n w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t s , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . I … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f – s o i f y o u c a n j u s t s lo w it d o w n . MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: Oh. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 A n d e x p la in t o t h e C h a i r w h a t p o s i t io n s y o u held and when? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: O k a y. C h a ir p e r s o n I jo i n e d th e p u b lic s e r v ic e i n 2 0 0 0 i n t h e W e s te r n C a p e a s p a r t o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t t e a m o f the Western s y s te m . Province. Cape Government C o m m u n ic a ti o n s and I n f o r m a ti o n T h a t w a s th e N a ti o n a l G o v e r n m e n t D e p a r t m e n t n o t th e S u b s e q u e n t t o th a t j o i n in g I t h e n jo in e d th e o ffi c e o f th e f o r m e r Mi n is t e r S i d n e y M u f a m a d i a s h is s p o k e s p e r s o n i n h is M i n i s tr y w h ic h w a s P r o v i n c i a l a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t. I r e t u r n e d t o G C I S i n th e Western Cape where I then headed up the – the Government C o m m u n i c a t io n s U n i t G C I S i n th e P r o v i n c e . I th e n r e t u r n e d t o Pr e to r i a 20 a g a in t o h e a d u p a tr a i n in g a n d d e v e lo p m e n t u n i t w h i c h b a s ic a l ly w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t r a in i n g a l l g o v e r n m e n t c o m m u n ic a to r s w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e a t l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t l e v e l o r n a t i o n a l g o v e r n m e n t o r p r o v in c i a l g o v e r n m e n t a n d my f o r m e r l a t e M i n i s te r C o ll i n g s C h a b a n e w a s o n e o f t h e fir s t M i n i s te r s t o a c tu a l ly u n d e r g o t h a t tr a i n i n g c o u r s e a s w e ll . S o I t h e n w o r k e d w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r u n ti l h e – p a s s e d o n s o I j o in e d h i m o n Page 11 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 h is r e q u e s t a t t h e Pr e s id e n c y a n d a g a i n o n h is r e q u e s t I f o ll o w e d h i m t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n a f te r t h e e l e c ti o n – t h e N a ti o n a l e l e c ti o n t h e n . S o I s t a y e d w i th h i m u n ti l h e passed on and then you know a few – about a year ago – a year and a h a l f a g o I r e s ig n e d fr o m t h e p u b li c s e r v ic e a n d th e n t o o k u p a p o s t a t P a r li a m e n t as the Unit Manager for Content and In f o r m a t io n D e v e l o p m e n t a n d I a m s ti ll th e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e – m a y b e t h e p r o b l e m is w i th m e . T h e r e i s v e r y li t tl e i m p r o v e m e n t i n t e r m s o f h e a r i n g y o u c o m p a r e d to w h a t it w a s 10 b e f o r e fo r m e . I s e e t h a t s o m e a t t h e b a c k s a y th e y c a n h e a r y o u q u i t e c le a r ly. A m I t h e o n ly o n e w h o is s tr u g g li n g ? I t l o o k s l ik e I a m t h e o n ly o n e . B u t o f a ll t h e p e o p le I a m th e o n e w h o m u s t h e a r y o u . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr S i m o n s I t h in k i t m i g h t b e … CHAIRPERSON: T h e t e c h n ic ia n s a r e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s n o t h in g t h a t t h e y c a n d o o r m a y b e t h e r e is s o m e t h in g t h e y s h o u l d d o o n m y a ir c o n . O k a y I a m t o l d m a y b e it w a s t h e a i r c o n . L e t u s tr y a g a i n . If t h e r e is s t il l a p r o b l e m w e m i g h t h a v e t o t a k e a b r e a k a n d th e t e c h n i c i a n s c a n h a v e a l o o k a t e v e r y t h i n g a n d t h e n w e c a n p r o c e e d . L e t u s tr y a g a in b u t y o u d o n o t h a v e t o r e p e a t w h a t y o u h a v e s a id b e c a u s e i t is i n h e r e . 20 Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e a n d – o k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr S i m o n s i f y o u c o u l d tr y a n d p r o je c t y o u r v o i c e b u t a ls o if y o u c a n tr y a n d s l o w d o w n . I t h i n k y o u t a lk i n g v e r y f a s t a n d t h a t a ls o m a k e s i t v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o h e a r y o u a n d f o ll o w w h a t y o u s a y i n g . D u r i n g t h e ti m e s i n b o th t h e P r e s id e n c y … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – I a m s o r r y. A n d I th i n k i f y o u fa c e m e i t mi g h t Page 12 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 h e l p . O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: D u r i n g th e ti m e t h a t y o u w o r k e d f o r M i n is t e r C h a b a n e i n th e o ffic e o f t h e P r e s i d e n c y w h a t w a s y o u r fu n c t io n ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : I w a s – C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a s k e d b y th e M i n is t e r to j o in h is te a m a n d to p a r tic u l a r l y l o o k a t m e d i a m a n a g e m e n t , m e d i a r e l a ti o n s a n d s p e a k i n g o n b e h a l f o f th e M in is tr y. B u t o b v i o u s ly t h e M i n i s t e r w o u ld a s k f o r c e r t a i n o t h e r ta s k s a s w e ll a n d th e n s o m e o f t h a t w o u l d i n c lu d e in t h e a b s e n c e o f t h e C h i e f o f S t a ff f o r e x a m p l e to tr y a n d a c t i n t h a t c a p a c i ty. 10 Yo u a ls o h a d t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e M i n is t e r ’s d i a r y w a s a p p r o p r i a t e . T h a t t h e M in is t e r w a s m e e ti n g w it h t h e s ta k e h o l d e r s h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o m e e t w i th a n d t h a t o n s o m e o c c a s i o n y o u a c tu a lly h a d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e w a s ti m e fo r th e M i n is t e r h i m s e l f a s w e ll w h ic h h e c o u l d u t ili s e i n h is p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty t o tr y a n d g e t h i m a w a y fr o m – fr o m – f r o m t h e o ffi c e b e c a u s e b e i n g a M i n is t e r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y o b v i o u s ly is a v e r y s tr e n u o u s r e s p o n s i b i li ty. S o y e s i t is [ in d is ti n c t ] . T h e m a i n o b j e c ti v e w a s a s m e d i a y o u a l s o c o n tr i b u t e d t o w r it i n g u p o f h is s p e e c h e s a n d th e n w h e n r e q u i r e d t o a s s is t w i t h a d m in is tr a ti v e c a p a b il it i e s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h e n a f te r t h e e l e c t io n s in M a y o r J u n e 20 2 0 1 4 y o u f o l l o w e d t h e M in is t e r t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n w h a t w e r e y o u r r o l e s i n th a t d e p a r t m e n t ? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: Th e y w e r e v e r y s i m i la r. P r io r to t h e e l e c ti o n t h e M i n is t e r s ta r t e d h i n ti n g t h a t h e m i g h t n o t c o m e b a c k a s M i n is t e r i n th e P r e s i d e n c y a n d t h e n d u r i n g t h e e le c ti o n s I t h i n k i t w a s ju s t a b o u t t w o o r t h r e e d a y s a ft e r th e e l e c ti o n t h e M i n i s t e r p h o n e d a n d Page 13 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 s a i d l o o k I a m n o t g o in g b a c k a s M i n is te r i n t h e Pr e s id e n c y I m i g h t g o t o s o m e o th e r d e p a r t m e n t b u t I w i ll k e e p y o u p o s t e d . And then he p h o n e d a g a in t o s a y t h a t i t w a s D P S A a n d h e w a n t e d m e a n d t h e n o b v i o u s l y s o m e o f t h e c o l l e a g u e s w h o w e r e a ls o i n t h e Pr e s id e n c y w i th h i m a t t h a t s t a g e t o a c c o m p a n y h i m t o D P S A . S o w e h a d v e r y s i m i la r t a s k s a n d r e s p o n s i b il it i e s . O n e o f t h e k e y is s u e s w a s t o g e t t h e M i n is t e r i n tr o d u c e d t o th e s t a ff a n d I a m s u r e t h a t m y c o l l e a g u e w o u ld a ls o a t t e s t to th e fa c t t h a t o u r M i n i s t e r w a lk e d t h e e n tir e b u il d i n g . H e d i d n o t t a k e t h e li f t u p i n t h o s e e le v e n f lo o r s . H e w a lk e d fr o m f l o o r t o 10 fl o o r, f r o m d e s k to d e s k , in tr o d u c i n g h i m s e l f t o a ll h i s s u b o r d i n a te s a t DPSA. I n s o m e o f t h o s e i n s t a n c e s w e w e r e a s k e d to t a k e n o t e s because he would see avocado pears for example on some desks or he w o u ld s e e o r a n g e s o n s o m e d e s k s a n d t h e n w h e n e v e r h e r e tu r n e d fr o m t h e L i m p o p o h e w o u l d b r in g a ll th e s e b a g s o f a v o c a d o p e a r s o r n a a r t ji e s o r o r a n g e s a n d w e h a d t o d is tr ib u te it t o th e c o ll e a g u e s w h o – o n w h o s e d e s k h e a c t u a l ly s a w t h e m . S o i t w a s m e d ia li a i s o n , a d m i n is tr a t iv e a n d ju s t m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h e o ffi c e w a s f u n c ti o n i n g p r o p e r ly. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M i n i s te r 20 Chabane? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h th e M i n i s t e r. I think I developed a very good T h e M i n is t e r w o u l d o f te n o p e n u p a n d h a v e d e e p d is c u s s i o n s n o t o n ly a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w it h in t h e M i n is tr y o r th e D e p a r t m e n t b u t a ls o p o li t i c a l ly w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n b e c a u s e h e k n e w t h a t I w a s a n a c t iv e m e m b e r o f t h e A fr ic a n N a t i o n a l Page 14 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C o n g r e s s a t t h a t s t a g e s o w e w o u l d h a v e p o li t ic a l d is c u s s i o n s a s w e l l . A n d o n e o f h is k e y is s u e s h e w o u l d a lw a y s a s k u s w h a t w a s t h e v i e w o f t h e m e d i a a n d w h a t w a s t h e v i e w o f c i tiz e n s o u t t h e r e o f t h e c u r r e n t le a d e r s h i p o f t h e A N C . A n d s o m e t i m e s h e e v e n a s k e d m e t o c o m p il e s o m e a r ti c l e s e s p e c i a l ly a f t e r w e e k e n d s . S o I w o u l d d o t h a t f o r h i m . If h e w e n t to t h e p o l it ic a l s c h o o l o f t h e A N C f o r e x a m p l e h e w o u ld a s k t h a t I a s s is t h i m . H e w o u l d g i v e a b r i e f a n d h e w o u l d s a y p le a s e d e v e l o p a p o l i tic a l p a p e r o n t h i s o r t h a t t o p ic d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t t h e t o p ic w a s . S o – s o I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a g o o d r e l a ti o n s h i p i n t e r m s o f – 10 o f tr u s t a n d m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s s o m e o n e a ls o h e c o u l d ta lk t o . A n d t h a t is w h a t w e d i d m o s t o f th e t i m e a s s ta ff m e m b e r s w e a c t u a ll y ju s t lis t e n e d . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d y o u m e n ti o n in y o u r s t a t e m e n t t h a t o n o c c a s i o n h e w o u l d tr a v e l i n t h e c a r w it h y o u . C o u ld y o u e x p a n d a b i t on that? M R B R E N T A D R IA N S I M O N S : Ye s t h is M in is te r w a s a t o t a ll y d i ff e r e n t M i n is t e r t o – I m e a n a s I s a y I w o r k e d w it h M i n i s t e r M u f a m a d i b e f o r e t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly p o le s a p a r t i n te r ms o f – o f h o w t h e y f u n c ti o n a n d o p e r a t e . M i n i s te r C h a b a n e w a s o n e o f t h o s e M i n i s t e r s w h o w o u l d s a y 20 f o r e x a m p l e t h a t l o o k y o u h a v e a h ir e d c a r ? A r e y o u d r iv in g a lo n e ? A n d y o u w o u l d s a y y e s a n d h e w o u l d s a y o k a y h e w o u l d t e l l h is s e c u r i ty o ffic i a ls a n d t h e t w o p o l ic e m e n d e p l o y e d th a t l o o k y o u e i t h e r d r iv e a h e a d o r y o u d r i v e b e h in d u s b u t I a m g o i n g t o a c c o m p a n y Br e n t a n d I a m s u r e h e d id i t w i th o t h e r c o l le a g u e s a s w e ll . A n d th a t i s h o w fo r e x a m p l e y o u w o u l d e n d u p d r iv i n g 5 0 0 / 6 0 0 k il o m e tr e s w i t h t h e M i n is t e r Page 15 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 a t s o m e s ta g e . A n d l ik e – I m e a n i f p e o p l e d r i v e w i t h y o u f o r 5 /6 h o u r s f o r 5 0 0 k il o m e tr e s e tc e t e r a y o u te n d to – y o u t a lk , y o u o p e n u p , y o u t a lk a b o u t m a n y d i ff e r e n t th i n g s a n d o n o n e o f t h o s e tr i p s w e w e r e in t h e K a r o o , t h e B e a u f o r t W e s t fo r e x a m p l e o n o n e S a t u r d a y a f te r n o o n a n d – S u n d a y a f te r n o o n s o r r y a n d h e s a i d th a t l o o k w e g o i n g to d r iv e b a c k . H e w a s c r a v i n g s o m e fi s h a n d c h i p s th e n I to l d h i m i t is S u n d a y y o u n o t g o i n g t o g e t fi s h a n d c h i p s in C a p e To w n o n a S u n d a y. And t h e n h e a s k e d w h o I w a s d r i v i n g w i th a n d I s a i d n o I a m d r iv in g a l o n e . A n d th e n h e s a id n o p e w e w il l s o l v e t h a t n o w. T h e t w o p o lic e o ffi c i a l s 10 s t il l b a s e d i n C a p e To w n t h e y w e r e to ld t o e i t h e r g o t o th e i r f a m il ie s M i n is t e r w a s i n g o o d c o m p a n y o r t h e y c o u l d d r iv e b e h in d u s w h ic h t h e y d i d a n d w e d r o v e s tr a i g h t t o Q u a y F o u r a t t h e W a t e r fr o n t s o t h a t t h e M i n is t e r c o u l d h a v e f is h a n d c h i p s . A n d a g a in I m e a n t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty w a s o n e w h e r e w e w o u ld ta lk a n d a t t h a t s t a g e w e w e r e c o m i n g fr o m a n A N C f u n c ti o n a n d h e w a n t e d a n u p d a t e b e c a u s e I w a s f r o m t h e P r o v i n c e a n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w i t h i n t h e p r o v i n c e a n d s o o n . A n d h e s p o k e t o t h i s o n e a n d th a t o n e s o th e M i n i s te r w a s a v e r y – v e r y, v e r y d o w n to e a r t h p o li ti c i a n e v e n i n G a u t e n g h e w o u ld a s k y o u t o t a k e h i m f r o m O R Ta m b o t o s o m e w h e r e i n J o h a n n e s b u r g o r h e w il l te ll t h e 20 o ffic i a ls t o w a i t fo r h i m i n P r e to r i a . H e w i ll j u m p i n th e c a r w i th y o u a n d h e w il l d r iv e w i th y o u t o P r e to r i a a n d e v e n t h o u g h w e f o u n d i t t o b e – you know we know we knew it was unusual – we – it became normal f o r u s t h a t t h e M i n is te r w o u l d a c t u a l ly d o t h a t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w Mr S i m o n s y o u a r e a w a r e t h a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Zu m a h a s t e s t i fi e d a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d d e n i e d Page 16 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t h a t h e i n s tr u c te d M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e t o r e m o v e T h e m b a M a s e k o , a r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s I a m C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t i s y o u r r e a c ti o n t o th a t ? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: M y r e a c ti o n w a s – w a s c lo u d e d w i th d is a p p o in t m e n t b e c a u s e o n o n e o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n s w e h a d w i t h th e M i n i s t e r f o r e x a m p l e h e to u c h e d o n t h e i s s u e . Because he k n e w I c a m e fr o m G C I S a n d h e t h o u g h t t h a t G C I S w a s m o v i n g i n t h e r ig h t d ir e c ti o n . T h e A N C w a s n o t m o v in g i n t h e r i g h t d ir e c ti o n . H e w a s 10 q u e s t io n in g t h e d ir e c ti o n t h e c o u n tr y w a s m o v in g i n . So yes the M i n is t e r w a s v e r y c le a r i n t e r m s o f h o w h e w o u ld – h e w o u ld a n d w h e n h e w o u l d h a v e d is c u s s i o n s a n d t h e t o p ic s h e w o u ld h a v e . S o w h e n – w h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t – f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t s a i d t h a t th e M i n i s te r a n d I th in k h e s a id i t a t t h e c o m m i s s io n t h a t t h e M i n is t e r p r o b a b l y w a s n a m e d r o p p i n g t h a t is t o t a ll y, to t a l ly c o n tr a d ic t o r y t o t h e c h a r a c t e r o f t h e M i n is t e r. T h e M i n is te r w a s t h e M in is t e r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y w i t h t h a t c a m e c e r t a i n I w o u l d s a y y o u k n o w w h e r e v e r y o u w e n t a n d y o u s a i d t h is is t h e M in is t e r i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y p e o p l e h a d a c e r t a i n a m o u n t o f r e s p e c t f o r t h a t o ffic e . S o I j u s t t h o u g h t t h a t th e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t w a s 20 n o t t r u t h fu l w h e n h e – i n fr o n t o f t h e c o m m is s i o n a n d t o th e p e o p le o f S o u th A f r i c a s a i d th a t t h e P r e s id e n t w a s p r o b a b ly y o u k n o w n a m e d r o p p i n g i n te r ms o f s a y in g t h a t – I a m s u r e w h e n h e p h o n e d o r h e m a d e t h e p h o n e c a ll h e d i d i t – h e u s e d m y n a m e a n d I th o u g h t th a t w a s i n c o r r e c t a n d I t h i n k t h a t is p a r t o f th e r e a s o n w h y - w h y s o m e o f u s fr o m th e M i n is tr y a r e h e r e . Page 17 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr Simons if we can go back a step you m e n ti o n in y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n y o u w e r e w i t h t h e M i n is t e r i n A u s tr a l ia . C o u ld y o u w i th s o m e d e t a i l e x p l a in t h o s e e v e n t s in y o u r s t a t e m e n t ? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: 2014. Ja. C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s M a r c h 2 0 - W e w e r e o n a n o ffi c i a l v i s i t t o A u s tr a l ia a n d I w a s t h e o n ly o ffic i a l a c c o m p a n y in g th e M i n i s t e r a t t h a t s t a g e . S o t r a d i t io n o r p r o t o c o l w o u ld d i c t a t e t h a t y o u - y o u b a s ic a ll y p r o v id e a ll s e r v ic e s t o y o u r - y o u r M in is t e r i f y o u a r e o n t h a t tr i p a n d - a n d y o u a r e th e o n ly 10 o ffic i a l a c c o m p a n y i n g . T h a t m e a n s s e c r e ta r i a l r e s p o n s i b il it i e s , a n s w e r i n g o f p h o n e f o r e x a m p l e , m a k in g s u r e th a t i f t h e M in is te r w a n te d t o g e t s o m e messages somewhere you would do that and then I - I do not know how it h a p p e n e d b u t w e - w e g o t w o r d t h a t t h e N k a n d la R e p o r t a t th a t s ta g e w a s a b o u t to b e r e le a s e d . W e h a d a n i n d e p t h d is c u s s i o n . I t w e n t o n u n t il t h e - t h e e a r l y h o u r s o f - o f t h e m o r n i n g in f a c t . W e e v e n t o o k a w a lk a r o u n d th e h o te l f a c i li t y ju s t fo r t h e M i n is t e r to - to h a v e a s m o k e . H e l o v e d h i s s m o k e s a n d t h e n - b u t a l s o t o - t o o p e n u p a n d - a n d t a l k . G e t a l it t le b i t m o r e c l a r i ty a n d w e - w e 20 t h e n r e le a s e d w h e n t h e N k a n d l a R e p o r t w a s r e l e a s e d t h a t s o m e o f t h e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s m a d e I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e a b o u t f o u r o r fi v e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a t th a t s t a g e th a t w a s m a d e . W e d is c u s s e d t h a t i n t h e M i n is t e r ’s h o t e l r o o m a n d - a n d w e a g r e e d o n - o n h o w w e s h o u l d g o a b o u t r e s p o n d in g . Part of that r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t a c k n o w l e d g e d t h e - th e r e p o r t . T h a t Page 18 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t h e P r e s id e n t a c k n o w l e d g e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s m a d e i n t h o s e r e p o r t s a n d th a t I k n o w i n t h e i n i ti a l d r a f t b e c a u s e - b e c a u s e I w a s th e o n ly o n e t y p in g I p u t i n r e d b o l d o n e o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w a s th a t t h e P r e s id e n t s h o u ld p a y b a c k a c e r ta i n a m o u n t a n d i n b o l d th e r e M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s a i d th a t I w il l fu n d r a is e o n b e h a l f i f th e r e i s a d e c is i o n o n h o w m u c h s h o u l d b e p a i d b a c k . T h a t w a s e m a i l e d to - t o t h e r e l e v a n t c o l le a g u e s i n - in th e P r e s i d e n c y. I a m s u r e t h e y s a id i t w it h G C I S a s w e ll a n d - a n d t h e M i n is t e r ’s in s tr u c ti o n w a s k e e p t h e r e s p o n s e a s b r i e f a s p o s s i b l e a n d 10 h e e n v is a g e d h a l f - h a l f a p a g e c l o s e to a p a g e r e s p o n s e b e c a u s e h e w a s s a y in g le t u s n o t g o i n t o t h e d e t a il s o f th e - t h e i s s u e s . Let us r e s p o n d to t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n te r ms o f h o w is h e . L ik e t h e o n e w a s i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly t h e r e p r i m a n d i n g o f - o f M i n is t e r s a n d o u r r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u l d d o t h is a n d a c t u a ll y r e p o r t b a c k t o t h e n a ti o n i n t e r m s o f t h e s te p s t h a t h e h a d t a k e n a n d th a t w a s t o b e d e t e r m i n e d i n a d is c u s s io n o n c e w e - w e h a d r e tu r n e d . T h e n e x t d a y w e - w e s a w t h e s t a t e m e n t . I f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly I t h i n k t h e G C I S s t a t e m e n t w e n t in t o a c o u p l e o f p a g e s a n d t h e P r e s i d e n c y h a d a ls o i s s u e d a s t a t e m e n t a n d t h a t s ta t e m e n t h a d 20 a b s o l u t e ly n o th i n g o f - o f w h a t t h e - th e Mi n is t e r h a d - h a d recommended. S o o b v i o u s ly o n o u r s i d e a n d if I t a lk o u r s id e th e M in is t e r o b v i o u s l y w a s a b i t d is a p p o in t e d b e c a u s e h e h a d t h o u g h t t h a t th e g u i d a n c e w e h a d g i v e n w a s s o u n d c o m m u n ic a ti o n s g u id a n c e w h ic h t o s o m e e x t e n t w o u l d h a v e n o t d e a l t w i th t h e is s u e i n i ts e n tir e ty b u t Page 19 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 w o u ld h a v e l i mi t e d s o m e o f t h e - t h e i m m e d i a t e n e g a t iv e r e s p o n s e s a ft e r t h a t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: What happened after that when M i n is t e r C h a b a n e h e a r d t h a t h is a d v ic e h a d n o t b e e n h e e d e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll Ms W e n tz e l I a m n o t s u r e t h a t th e p a r t t h a t t h e w i t n e s s h a s d e a l t w i t h n o w is r e a l ly r e l e v a n t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s . M a y b e it is b u t i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o w a n t h i m t o g o f u r th e r a l o n g t h o s e li n e s … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u l d n e e d t o k n o w w h y. W h y i t i s r e l e v a n t ? 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: H e - b e y o n d t h is a n d a ft e r h e a r i n g - i f I u n d e r s t a n d t h e s ta t e m e n t - a f t e r h e a r i n g th a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t M r Zu m a h a d n o t h e e d e d th e a d v ic e th a t h e h a d th o u g h t s o c a r e f u l ly a b o u t Mr C h a b a n e w a s v e r y u p s e t a n d t h e n h a d - h a d a v e r y i m p o r t a n t c o n v e r s a ti o n c o n c e r n i n g t h e r e m o v a l o f M r M a s e k o i m m e d ia t e l y a f te r t h is . S o h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t w a s i n t h a t s t a t e o f m in d t h a t h e c o n f id e d in t h is w i t n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h y d o w e n o t g o s tr a i g h t t o t h e r e a l is s u e ? 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: We - we might not need … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D e t a i ls a b o u t a d v i c e t h a t w a s g iv e n … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t a c c e p te d . Page 20 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g o to t h e is s u e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . M s S i m o n s c o u l d y o u p le a s e e x p l a in h o w i t w a s t h a t a s y o u s a y i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t M in is t e r C h a b a n e t o ld y o u about the removal of Mr Maseko and what he told you? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : O k a y. A s - a s i n d ic a t e d C h a ir p e r s o n t h e M i n is t e r o b v i o u s l y h e w a s a b i t u p s e t th a t - t h a t w e h a d w o r k e d a n d d r a f t e d s o m e fo r m o f - o f g u i d a n c e i n t e r m s o f t h e s ta t e m e n t a n d n o n e o f th a t w a s u s e d a n d w e h a d a t a lk a f t e r w a r d s a n d t h e M i n is t e r t h e n 10 a ls o to u c h e d o n th e is s u e o f M r M a s e k o k n o w i n g t h a t I c a m e fr o m fr o m G C I S . T h a t I h a d w o r k e d c l o s e ly w i t h M r M a s e k o e tc e te r a a n d - a n d w h a t h e i n d ic a te d t h e n w a s t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t h a d a c t u a l ly i n s tr u c t e d h i m t o g e t r i d o f - o f M r M a s e k o . W e - w e h a d a d is c u s s i o n a n d - a n d h is v ie w s w e r e t h a t h e - h e a t t h a t s t a g e t h o u g h t th a t G C I S w a s f u n c t i o n in g o p t i m a l ly. G C I S w a s p e r fo r m in g a t a h i g h s ta n d a r d in t e r m s o f s e tt i n g t h e s t a n d a r d o r t h e p a c e w i t h i n G o v e r n m e n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n s a n d th a t M r M a s e k o w a s g iv i n g e x c e l l e n t l e a d e r s h i p a t t h a t s ta g e b u t h e d id n o t 20 g o i n to t h e d e t a ils o f - o f i t b u t s a i d t h a t h e h a d r e c e i v e d a t e l e p h o n e c a l l a n d t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t w a s a c tu a lly s a y in g to h i m v e r y d i r e c tly th a t M r M a s e k o n e e d e d - n e e d e d t o b e r e p l a c e d a n d h e a c t u a ll y m e n t i o n e d t h e n a m e o f Mr M a n y i a s w e l l a n d - a n d h e s a i d h e fo u n d t h a t a l s o a b it d is t u r b i n g b e c a u s e w h e n y o u t e l l t h a t y o u d o n o t w a n t t h i s te a c h e r a n d a u t o m a ti c a ll y a - a s e c o n d a r y n a m e w a s a ls o a d d e d a s t o w h o t h e Page 21 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 p e r s o n m u s t b e t h a t - t h a t w a s f o ll o w i n g u p . I w a s w o r k i n g a t G C I S a t t h a t s ta g e w h e n M r M a s e k o w a s w a s r e m o v e d a n d o b v i o u s ly w e - w e h a d m e e ti n g s w i th M r M a s e k o ’s r e p l a c e m e n t t h e n Mr - M r M a n y i b u t th a t w a s th e - th e v i e w o f th e M i n is t e r th e n a n d t h a t is p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n w h y I f e l t t h a t e v e n th o u g h y e s p e o p l e w i ll s a y y o u r M i n i s te r h a d p a s s e d o n . H e is n o t h e r e t o - t o defend himself. T h e r e a r e m e m b e r s o f s t a ff t h a t h e h a d s p o k e n t o . T h e r e a r e m e m b e r s o f s ta ff w h o w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n t h a t t e l e p h o n e c a l l c a m e a n d 10 t h e M i n is t e r fr o m - fr o m h is d i s c u s s i o n w i t h m e w a s v is ib ly - i t w a s c le a r t h a t - t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r w a s s ti ll u p s e t a b o u t h o w th a t - t h a t tr a n s p ir e d , b u t h e w a s t e ll i n g u s - t e l li n g m e a t l e a s t d ir e c tly t h a t a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d i n s tr u c t e d h i m t o r e m o v e Mr M a s e k o e v e n t h o u g h h e was not keen on doing that. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y t h i s w a s d u r in g y o u r tr i p i n A u s tr a l i a in in 2 0 1 4 ? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: Ye s . The Minister as I say when we d r a f t e d t h e s ta t e m e n t w e s p e n t s e v e r a l h o u r s in h is r o o m . We even t o o k a li t tl e b r e a k j u s t t o g o a n d w a l k a r o u n d t h e s t r e e ts o f S y d n e y i n 20 t h e e a r ly h o u r s o f t h e m o r n in g a n d w e c a m e b a c k a n d - a n d w e - w e c o n c l u d e d t h e d r a ft s t a t e m e n t . I t w e n t b a c k . The next morning we had to get up very early again because w e h a d m e e t in g s w i t h r e le v a n t s t a k e h o l d e r s o r g a n i s e d b y I t h i n k i t w a s Brand SA as that stage. So - so yes. I t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g th a t tr i p w h e r e - w h e r e w e - w e a r e c l e a r l y - t h e M i n is t e r t a l k e d a b o u t a n d Page 22 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 touched on the - the concerns he had regarding the removal of Mr Maseko. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e th e - M r M a s e k o ’s r e m o v a l o r tr a n s f e r fr o m G C I S to D P S A o c c u r r e d in I t h i n k F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . S o h e w a s t a lk i n g t o y o u t h a t is M i n is t e r C h a b a n e o n t h is tr ip i n A u s tr a li a a b o u t w h a t t h r e e y e a r s la t e r ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: 10 W e h a d t a lk s a b o u t m a n y o t h e r t h i n g s o b v i o u s l y b u t th e o n e t h a t a n d - a n d th a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g I h a d th a t fir s t- h a n d e n c o u n t e r w i t h t h e M i n i s te r a n d y o u - y o u t h e n r e a d i n th e n e w s p a p e r s th a t th e M i n i s t e r t e c h n ic a lly w a s ly i n g a n d - a n d I h o n e s tl y b e li e v e t h a t t h e M i n is t e r w a s n o t ly i n g a n d t h e s a m e s t o r y y o u obviously a ls o heard within th e rank and fi l e of your - your a d m i n is tr a t iv e s e tu p i n t h e o ff ic e a n d - a n d I t h i n k th a t is w h y a t le a s t t w o o f u s a r e - a r e h e r e t o - t o tr y a n d v e r if y o r c o r r o b o r a t e . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t m y c o l le a g u e is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Is r e p o r t in g o n b u t - b u t I a m s a y i n g th a t 20 a n d th a t i s w h a t t h e M i n is te r t o l d m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d t h e M in i s t e r te ll y o u w h a t h e th o u g h t a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r M a n y i t o th e p o s t ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : C h a ir p e r s o n i n - in f a c t t h a t is h o w th e M i n is t e r o b v i o u s l y o p e n e d u p a s w e ll . H e - h e w a s n o t t o o k e e n a n d h e Page 23 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 s a i d i t to th is e x te n t . He was not too keen on the appointment of M r M a n y i b e c a u s e M r M a n y i a t t h a t p a r tic u la r s t a g e w a s a ls o e m b r o il e d in t h is s c a n d a l o f h a v in g tr i e d t o - t o s o u r c e fu n d i n g f o r a p r iv a te v e n tu r e w h il e t h e r e w a s a n o ff ic ia l d is c u s s io n ta k i n g p l a c e a n d s o o n a n d - a n d h e th o u g h t t h a t t h e - t h e o n e t h i n g t h a t t h e M i n i s te r w o u ld b e li e v e in w h ic h m o s t o f u s b e l ie v e i n a s G o v e r n m e n t c o m m u n ic a t o r s i s that you do not become the news. Yo u - y o u s p e a k o n b e h a l f o f y o u r M in is t e r. Yo u s p e a k o n b e h a l f o f y o u r d e p a r t m e n t b u t y o u d o n o t b e c o m e t h e to p i c o f 10 d is c u s s io n w i th in t h e m e d i a a n d - a n d t h e M i n is t e r w a s n o t to o k e e n o n - o n h a v i n g th a t a p p o in t m e n t b u t t h e s a m e s i t u a t io n p r e v a il e d t h a t y o u a r e b e in g i n s tr u c t e d b y th e P r e s i d e n t w h o to - t o r e m o v e a n d w h o to r e p l a c e t h a t p e r s o n w i th . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d c o u ld y o u e x p la in to t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n M r M a n y i ’s f iv e y e a r t e r m e x p ir e d ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : C h a i r p e r s o n t h e M in is t e r w a s n o t g o i n g t o r e n e w t h e - th e - o r o ff e r M r M a n y i a - a d i ff e r e n t c o n tr a c t . A t t h a t s t a g e I w a s a l s o p a r t o f th e - t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m m i t te e o f - o f G C I S w h ic h c o m p r o m i s e s D ir e c t o r s / C h i e f D ir e c t o r s . 20 S o r r y. M A N C O w a s D ir e c to r s . T h e - t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m m i t t e e c o n s is t e d o f C h i e f D i r e c t o r s p r i m a r i ly w i th y o u r E x e c u t iv e M a n a g e m e n t w h ic h is y o u r D e p u ty D ir e c t o r G e n e r a ls a n d y o u r - y o u r D G . S o a t th a t s ta g e t h e r e w a s n o D G a n d - a n d t h e M i n i s t e r th e n a d d r e s s e d th e - t h e m a n a g e m e n t c o m m i t t e e s a y i n g t h a t h e w a s n o t g o i n g to e x te n d o r r e n e w t h e c o n tr a c t o f M r M a n y i a n d t h a t w e w o u l d Page 24 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 a l lo w t h e p r o c e s s t o - t o b e fo ll o w e d in t e r ms o f a n a p p o i n t m e n t a n d I d o n o t k n o w b u t - b u t s h o r t ly a f te r t h a t M s P h u m l a W i ll ia m s w a s a p p o i n t e d a s th e - t h e A c t i n g D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l w i t h i n G C I S . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: D o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Mr Z u m a ’s r e a c ti o n t o th a t w a s ? MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: F r o m - fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r ’s p e r s p e c t iv e h e w a s n o t t o o i m p r e s s e d w i t h t h a t . In t e r m s o f t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d I - I k n o w t h e M in is t e r a g a i n r e fe r r e d to h i m s e l f a s b e i n g a b i t u p s e t a t - a t t h e c h a t h e h a d w i t h th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t p a r ti c u l a r l y 10 r e g a r d in g t h e - t h e n o n e a p p r o v a l o r s u p p o r t fo r - f o r t h e e x te n s io n o f t h e - t h e c o n tr a c t o f o r r e n e w a l o f t h e c o n t r a c t o f - o f Mr M a n y i . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Yo u a r e a ls o r e f e r r in g to - i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t t o a l e t t e r th a t y o u d r a f t e d to t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t s h o r tl y b e fo r e th e A p r il 2 0 1 4 e l e c ti o n s o n b e h a l f o f M in is t e r C h a b a n e s t a ti n g th a t h e w a s r e m o v i n g M r M a n y i fr o m t h e M e d ia D e v e l o p m e n t a n d D iv e r s i ty A g e n c y B o a r d a s h e w a s n o l o n g e r a r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f G C I S . Could you e x p l a i n th a t ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : C a n - c a n y o u ju s t r e f e r m e t o t h e p a g e C h a ir p e r s o n ? 20 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . W i t h p le a s u r e . Paragraph 50 on page 11 . M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : A t - a t t h is s ta g e w e w e r e s t ill i n t h e t h e Pr e s id e n c y a n d M r - M in is t e r C h a b a n e w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e M e d i a D e v e l o p m e n t a n d D i v e r s i ty A g e n c y - t h e M D D A . T h e M D D A in f a c t s e n t a l e t te r t o - to th e M in is t e r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y c o m p l a in in g Page 25 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 a b o u t t h e p o s i t io n t h a t w a s b e i n g o c c u p ie d b y M r M a n y i o n t h e M D D A Board. T h a t w a s a p o s i t io n th a t w a s p r i m a r i ly s e t a s id e f o r G C I S . T h e - t h e p o s it i o n w a s th a t Mr M a n y i w a s n o lo n g e r p a r t o f G C I S - n o lo n g e r r e p r e s e n t in g Government and th e r e fo r e could not be r e p r e s e n ti n g G o v e r n m e n t o r a d e p a r t m e n t a G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t o n a b o a r d w h i c h th a t p a r ti c u la r s e a t w a s p a r ti c u la r ly s e t a s id e f o r a Government department. I r e c e iv e d it fr o m I t h i n k th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w e n t t o t h e 10 C h i e f o f S t a ff. F o l lo w in g t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w it h t h e C h i e f o f S t a ff t h e M i n is t e r w a s b r i e f e d a n d t h e Mi n is te r t h e n g a v e t h a t ta s k to m e t o s o r t w i t h t h e l e g a l a d v i s o r s in th e P r e s i d e n c y. G e t t h a t o p in i o n i n t e r m s o f what we should in - in terms of the way forward. W e r e c e iv e d t h a t o p in i o n f r o m t h e le g a l a d v is o r s w h o t h e n in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e p o s i t io n in fa c t s h o u l d b e v a c a te d a n d i t s h o u l d b e i m m e d i a t e ly h a n d e d t o - t o G C I S o r r e t u r n e d t o G C I S . I t h e n d r a f te d a le t t e r o n b e h a l f o f M in is t e r C h a b a n e w h ic h m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e le g a l o p i n i o n a n d t h e le g a l o p i n i o n i n f a c t w a s a t t a c h e d to t h a t d r a ft le t t e r. I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e M i n i s t e r o r I d o n o t r e c a l l if th e Mi n is te r 20 s ig n e d th a t le t t e r b u t t h a t l e t te r d i d g o t o t h e P r e s id e n c y a n d i f i t d i d g o t o th e Pr e s id e n c y th e n I t h i n k t h e M i n i s t e r o b v io u s ly w o u l d h a v e s ig n e d it b e c a u s e a s a t t h a t s ta g e a s I in d ic a t e d e a r li e r i n o u r M i n is tr y y o u h a v e d i ff e r e n t u n i ts d o i n g d i ff e r e n t c o m p o n e n ts d i ff e r e n t w o r k a n d s o on. S o th a t l e t t e r w a s d r a ft e d a n d t h e n w e n e v e r e v e r r e c e i v e d Page 26 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 a n y fe e d b a c k a s l o n g a s - a s I w a s i n t h e Pr e s i d e n c y th e n b u t I t h i n k A p r il 1 4 - 2 0 1 4 w a s a ls o a p e r io d w h e r e - w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e c a m p a i g n i n g . I t w a s e l e c ti o n s a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r a t t h a t s t a g e b u t I - I d o n o t r e c a l l a n y r e s p o n s e f r o m t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t r e g a r d i n g t h e r e m o v a l o f - o f M r M a n y i fr o m t h e M D D A B o a r d a t th a t s t a g e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . C h a ir in e s s e n c e t h a t c o n c l u d e s h i s e v i d e n c e t h a t is n o t g o i n g f u r th e r i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o M r S i m o n s in 2 0 11 , F e b r u a r y i n w h i c h d e p a r t m e n t in t h e G o v e r n m e n t w e r e y o u ? I a m tr y i n g t o g o b a c k t o y o u r s e q u e n c e . 10 M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : 2 0 11 I w a s - I w a s i n G C I S . I w a s th e e a r ly 2 0 11 I w a s t h e D ir e c to r - P r o v i n c i a l D ir e c t o r f o r G IC S i n th e Western Cape. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u - y o u w e r e n o t i n th e P r e s i d e n c y a t th a t ti m e ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : N o C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. S o a t t h e ti m e t h a t M r M a s e k o was removed you - you were in the Western Cape? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: I was based there. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t i n t h e W e s t e r n C a p e w a s t h a t a s e p a r a t e d e p a r t m e n t o r t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t b u t o n ly p r o v i n c i a l l e v e l - G C I S ? M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : It w a s G C I S n a t i o n a lly … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR BRENT ADRIAN SIMONS: And I was heading up the provincial part of that department. Page 27 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. Th a n k y o u . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . Yo u w il l b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k t o d e a l w it h t h e o th e r a s p e c ts t h a t w e ta lk e d a b o u t a t a l a t e r s t a g e b u t t h a n k y o u fo r c o m i n g f o r w a r d . M R B R E N T A D R I A N S I M O N S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u n e e d m e to a d j o u r n f o r y o u t o c a ll th e n e x t w i t n e s s o r a r e y o u a b l e t o c a ll … ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Without an adjournment? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I am - I a m a b le to c a ll w it h o u t a n adjournment. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is - i t i s - I a m in y o u r h a n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o i f y o u a r e a b l e t o c a l l th e w i t n e s s w i t h o u t a n a d j o u r n m e n t l e t u s d o th a t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 C h a ir th e n e x t w i t n e s s i s M r H l u n g w a n i . He w a s a P r i v a t e S e c r e ta r y in th e O ff ic e o f t h e Pr e s i d e n c y t o M r C h a b a n e a t t h e r e l e v a n t ti m e . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. Yo u c a n a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A b e d n i g o H lu n g w a n i . Page 28 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o h e lp m e G o d . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d Ms W e n tz e l. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir w i t h t h i s w i t n e s s a g a i n w e h a v e t a k e n t h e l ib e r ty o f n a m i n g h is s ta t e m e n t E X H I B I T J J 2 w h ic h w e w o u l d lik e t o submit into evidence. CHAIRPERSON: The f il e containing th e a ff i d a v i t of M r A b e d n i g o H l u n g w a n i w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T J J 2 . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M r H lu n g w a n i t h e E X H I B I T J J 2 i n f r o n t o f y o u is t h a t a s t a te m e n t d e p o s e d t o u n d e r o a th b y y o u s u b m i t te d t o t h e Commission? 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s i t i s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o u l d y o u p l e a s e g iv e t h e C h a ir d e t a ils o f y o u r e m p l o y m e n t w i th G o v e r n m e n t? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir b u t o n t h e s t a t e m e n t I w o u ld w a n t t o j u s t m a k e o n e c o r r e c ti o n i f t h e C h a ir a l lo w s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 29 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J u s t o n t h e fi r s t p a g e . My - m y n a m e reads Abegnigo. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o A- B - E t h a t G s h o u l d b e D . CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O t h e r t h a n t h a t th e s t a te m e n t i s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll y o u M s W e n tz e l ju s t a r r a n g e f o r a - a f r e s h p a g e 10 1 to be done? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w il l m a k e s u r e th a t t h a t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t i s a m e n d e d a n d I a p o l o g is e to y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I w i ll c o r r e c t th a t. S o r r y. I f y o u c o u ld t h e n h a v e a lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t a n d j u s t e x p l a in t o th e C h a ir w h a t p o s i ti o n s y o u h a v e h e l d i n G o v e r n m e n t . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 20 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M y - m y e m p lo y m e n t in t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e s p a n s o v e r 2 2 y e a r s b u t m a i n ly s ta r t e d i n L i m p o p o P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t a n d m a in ly fr o m J u l y 1 9 9 7 t o a l m o s t 2 0 1 0 I s e r v e d i n v a r io u s G o v e r n m e n t p o s i ti o n s i n th e D e p a r t m e n ts o f F i n a n c e a n d E c o n o m i c D e v e l o p m e n t , E c o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t E n v ir o n m e n t a n d To u r is m a s w e ll a s P u b lic W o r k s a n d i t w a s u n t il t h e n 2 0 1 0 , 1 5 M a r c h t h a t I a s s u m e d t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f P r iv a te S e c r e t a r y t o th e la t e Page 30 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M i n is t e r C h a b a n e . I t w a s e x a c tl y fi v e y e a r s w it h m e b e c a u s e I s t a r t e d o n 15 March 2010 and sadly passed on, on 15 March 2015. So I spent a l m o s t fiv e y e a r s w i t h h i m b u t w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is t h a t f o r t h e p e r i o d 2 0 1 0 t o a l m o s t 2 0 1 3 th e r e a b o u t m a y b e M a y I w a s a p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r y to M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w h e n t h e fo r m e r C h ie f o f S t a ff w h e n th e P r e s i d e n c y le f t . I w a s a p p o i n t e d t o a c t a s th e C h i e f o f S t a ff i n t h e o ff ic e o f la t e M i n i s te r C h a b a n e a n d g o t t o b e a p p o in t e d f u ll y t o t h e p o s i t io n i n 10 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 . I t w a s a l m o s t t h r e e m o n t h s b e fo r e t h e e le c t i o n s . A f t e r t h e e le c t i o n s M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a l m o s t th e n i g h t w h e n M i n is t e r s w e r e a p p o i n t e d b y th e Pr e s i d e n t d i d t e x t m e i n th e e a r ly h o u r s o f t h e m o r n in g . I t h i n k i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e 2 5 t h o r 2 6 M a y a f te r th e e l e c ti o n s in 2 0 1 4 t h a t h e w o u ld li k e m e t o p r o c e e d w i t h h i m t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f - o r s h o u l d I s a y M i n is tr y o f - b e c a u s e th a t i s h o w w e w o u ld n o r m a l ly c a l l it - P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n t o w h i c h I s e r v e d a s C h ie f o f S t a ff u n ti l t h e d a t e h e p a s s e d o n a n d o f c o u r s e I c a n a ls o i n d i c a t e t h a t t h a t d e m is e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a a p p o i n t e d 20 M i n is t e r M t h e th w a t o b e A c ti n g M i n is t e r b e tw e e n th e t i m e w h e n M i n is t e r C h a b a n e p a s s e d o n t o t h e t i m e M i n i s t e r R a m a tl h o d i w a s a p p o i n t e d M i n is t e r o f P u b lic S e r v i c e a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n . It would have been around September 2015. So M i n is t e r M t h e th w a a c te d f o r a l m o s t s ix m o n th s a n d M in is t e r R a m a t lh o d i c a m e t h r o u g h i n S e p t e m b e r. L a te D e c e m b e r o f t h e s a m e y e a r I h a d Page 31 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 a lr e a d y a s k e d o r e x p r e s s e d m y w i s h t o g e t o u t o f t h e p o l i tic a l o ff ic e - o f c o u r s e n o t i n a b a d w a y. A t t h a t p o i n t I f e l t I h a d d o n e e n o u g h i n t h e M i n is tr y a n d w a n te d t o d o s o m e t h in g e l s e e v e n i f i t m e a n t i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d th a t i s w h y t o d a y C h a ir I a m t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r in t h e O ff ic e o f t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l D e p a r t m e n t o f M i n e r a l R e s o u r c e s a n d E n e r g y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Th a n k y o u . Yo u h a v e d e t a i l e d i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h a t y o u r d u t ie s w e r e a s th e C h i e f o f S t a ff i n p a r a g r a p h 4 o n p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t b u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e to d a y t h e 10 r e l e v a n t p o s i ti o n w a s y o u r p o s i t io n a s t h e P r iv a t e S e c r e ta r y to M i n is te r - t o M i n is te r C h a b a n e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C o r r e c t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o u ld y o u p l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t w e r e y o u r d u ti e s a s P r i v a t e S e c r e ta r y ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: So - so th e P r iv a t e Secretary - C h a ir p e r s o n t h e - t h e w o r k t h a t I e n t a i le d o r th a t I d i d in d e t a il w a s c o o r d i n a t io n i n th e m a i n o f th e M i n is te r ’s p r o g r a m s b u t i n p a r t ic u l a r is s u e s r e l a ti n g to t h e d i a r y. I s a y t h i s b e c a u s e a s a M in is t e r fi r s tly y o u a r e a M e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t . S o t h e r e w il l b e a p a r l ia m e n t a r y p r o g r a m 20 a n d n e x t y o u a r e a M i n is t e r. Yo u have e x e c u t iv e a u t h o r i ty duties but at th e time M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w a s b o t h a M e m b e r o f t h e N a t i o n a l E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e o f t h e A f r i c a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s a n d a l s o s e r v e d i n t h e N a t io n a l W o r k in g C o m m i t t e e o f t h a t - o f - o f th e r u li n g p a r ty a t t h e ti m e a n d a s s u c h h e h a d a h u g e p r o g r a m a n d m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s to Page 32 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 c o o r d i n a t e t h a t p r o g r a m b u t a ls o g e n e r a lly i n th e o ff ic e y o u w il l b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r h i s l o g is t ic s - l o g i s t ic a l d u t i e s w h ic h w o u l d i n v o l v e tr a v e l , c o o r d i n a t i o n o f a ll m a t t e r s t h a t r e l a te s t o h i s o ff ic e i n te r ms o f t h e s u p p o r t s t u ff - s u p p o r t s e r v ic e t h a t y o u g iv e a n d t h a t w il l a ls o in c l u d e s e c r e t a r i a l s e r v ic e s o r a n y o t h e r a s s ig n m e n t th a t t h e Mi n is te r w o u ld a s s i g n t o m e a t a g iv e n p o i n t w i th in t h e a m b i t o f t h e l a w. O f c o u r s e in t e r m s o f t h e i n s tr u c t io n s t h a t h e w il l g iv e m e I w o u ld n e e d to - t o c a r r y t h o s e in s u p p o r t t o h is E x e c u t iv e d u ti e s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 Thank you. Mr H l u n g w a n i y o u h a v e h e a r d I b e li e v e t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a s t e s ti f ie d t h a t h e d i d n o t c a ll M i n is t e r C h a b a n e r e g a r d i n g t h e r e m o v a l o f M r T h e m b a M a s e k o i n l a t e J a n u a r y / F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . W o u l d y o u li k e t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir I h a v e h e a r d th a t t e s t i m o n y, I t h i n k i t w a s o n t h e – m y r e c o l l e c ti o n s e r v e s m e w e ll , f o r m e r P r e s id e n t w o u ld h a v e s ta r t e d h e r e o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J u l y t h is y e a r t o t e s t i fy b u t th a t a s p e c t c a m e o n th e 1 6 t h , y e s I h a d i t C h a ir p e r s o n . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d w o u l d y o u l ik e t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : C h a ir I c o u l d o n l y t a l k a b o u t w h a t I s a y s o i n th e s ta t e m e n t i n t e r m s o f a n i n c i d e n t t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w i t h i n a 20 p a r t ic u l a r p e r i o d a n d [ i n d is ti n c t ] th a t – w e l l w h e n I h e a r d th a t , m a y b e le t m e t a k e i t b a c k w a r d . Fir s t ly it w a s M r M a s e k o h i m s e l f w h o ’s t e s ti fi e d b e fo r e y o u a n d s a i d w h a t h e s a id , t h e r e c o r d w i ll s p e a k fo r it s e l f. I t h e n h e a r d t h e te s ti m o n y o f fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a a t th e ti m e . On both occasions I had taken a resolve not to come here for various reasons. O n e , I h a v e g r e a t r e s p e c t fo r P r e s id e n t Z u m a , s e c o n d l y t h e Page 33 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 in c i d e n t th a t I w i ll s p e a k a b o u t , i t w a s a n i n c id e n t b e tw e e n , w h a t y o u m i g h t c a ll f o r l a c k o f a b e tt e r w o r d a n e m p l o y e r a n d e m p l o y e e a n d b e c a u s e n o w t h e e m p l o y e e is n o m o r e I f o u n d i t d i ff ic u l t a n d I f e l t i t w o u ld b e v e r y o ff o f m e t o c o m e a n d t a lk a b o u t t h a t i n c i d e n t b u t because of a p a r t ic u l a r i n d ic a ti o n f r o m t h e C o m m is s i o n , t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, a t y o u r i n v i t a ti o n b e c a u s e o f w h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d b e t w e e n a p a r t ic u l a r period of t i m e , I ’v e acceded when your i n v e s ti g a t o r s r e q u e s t e d t h a t I c o m e t h r o u g h a n d t h a t’s w h y I w a n te d to t a k e i t b a c k to s a y, I h a d w is h e d n o t t o b e h e r e a n d t h r o u g h y o u r in v i t e I o b li g e d , 10 t h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , l e t m e j u s t s a y t h a t b e c a u s e th e r e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t v e r s io n s a b o u t h o w M r M a s e k o g o t t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d fr o m G C I S t o D P S A i t ’s q u i te i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o e s t a b l is h w h a t t h e tr u th is a n d t o th a t e x te n t i t n e e d s t o h e a r fr o m p e o p l e w h o m ig h t h a v e i n fo r m a t i o n . W h e t h e r th a t in f o r m a ti o n s u p p o r ts t h e v e r s io n p u t o u t b y f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Zu m a o r i t s u p p o r ts M r M a s e k o ’s v e r s i o n o r i t d o e s n ’t s u p p o r t e i t h e r o f t h e m b u t i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n g e t s t o k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o t h a t ’s th e c o n t e x t in w h ic h t h e C o m m i s s i o n i s tr y in g t o lo o k a t p e o p l e w h o m i g h t h a v e i n f o r m a ti o n a s 20 t o w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o th a t ’s h o w p e o p l e lik e y o u c o m e i n , t h a t’s h o w p e o p l e l ik e Mr S i m o n s c o m e in , y e s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I r e s p e c t t h a t. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr Hlungwani if you have regard to p a r a g r a p h fiv e o f y o u r s t a te m e n t o n w a r d s o n p a g e t w o y o u r e f e r t o a c a l l – a te l e p h o n e c a ll t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d f r o m o n e o f t h e f o r m e r Page 34 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 P r e s i d e n t ’s , Mr Z u m a ’s p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r i e s . C o u l d y o u ju s t e x p la i n w h a t tr a n s p ir e d t o t h e C h a ir ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : L e t m e s ta t e C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e o u ts e t t h a t M r C h a b a n e s e r v e d Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a o r u n d e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s a d m i n is tr a t i o n a n d t h e t w o o ff ic e s w h a t w e r e c a ll e d t h e t w o p r iv a t e o ffic e s – t h e p r iv a te o ff ic e o f t h e P r e s id e n t a n d t h e p r iv a t e o ffi c e o f t h e M i n is t e r, t h e tw o o ff ic e s w o u ld o f te n ta lk . CHAIRPERSON: H o w w o u l d t h e y ta lk ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 10 Ta l k in te r m s o f t h e o ff ic e – t h e o ffi c i a ls fr o m b o t h o ff ic e s , i f a n y th i n g n e e d s t o b e d o n e … [ i n te r v e n ti o n ] . CHAIRPERSON: Would be conversation? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s c o r r e c t . Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o o n t h e s e o c c a s i o n I t h in k it w o u l d h a v e b e e n J a n u a r y 2 0 11 I t h i n k , I d i d – I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m o n e o f t h e p r i v a t e s e c r e ta r i e s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d I t h i n k s h e in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e y w e r e a b r o a d a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Th e y w e r e a b r o a d ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 20 A b r o a d a t t h e t i m e a n d w a n te d t o c h e c k if I w a s – o r i f M i n i s te r w a s c l o s e t o m e o r w a s i n th e o ff ic e a t t h e ti m e b e c a u s e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t w o u l d l ik e t o ta l k t o h i m a n d I t h in k w e w e r e in t h e U n i o n B u il d in g s o n t h e d a y b e c a u s e t h e Pr e s id e n t h a s g o t t w o o ffic e s , o n e in th e U n io n B u il d in g s a n d a n o th e r i n Tu i n h u is b u t o n t h a t o c c a s i o n I t h in k w e w e r e i n U n io n B u i l d i n g s . I d i d r e s p o n d t o s a y, y e s h e i s in th e o ff ic e a n d th is – th e p r iv a te s e c r e ta r y a t t h a t p o i n t Page 35 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 in d i c a t e d t h a t th e y w ill c a ll b a c k - I m u s t in f o r m t h e M in is t e r to e x p e c t a c a l l fr o m t h e Pr e s id e n t. M o m e n ts la t e r a c a l l c a m e t h r o u g h , s a m e p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r y o n m y c e l l p h o n e n u m b e r a n d a s I r e c e iv e d – b e c a u s e I h a d – m a y b e I s h o u ld in d i c a t e th a t i n - b e t w e e n w h e n s h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t I m u s t in f o r m t h e M in is t e r to e x p e c t a c a l l fr o m t h e Pr e s i d e n t , I s to o d u p fr o m m y d e s k a n d w e n t to M i n is t e r ’s o ff ic e a n d r e l a y e d t h e m e s s a g e w h ic h I ’d j u s t r e c e iv e d a n d m o m e n ts l a te r w h e n t h e c a ll c a m e t h r o u g h I t h e n r e s p o n d e d t o w a l k i n t o w a r d s t h e o ffi c e a n d i n d ic a t e d t o t h e M i n is t e r t h a t h e r e ’s t h e c a ll I i n fo r m e d y o u a b o u t . 10 I handed over the p h o n e t o h i m a n d I m u s t p o i n t o u t a t t h e p o i n t i t w a s s ti ll t h e p r iv a te s e c r e t a r y o n t h e li n e , i t w a s n o t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t , i t w a s s ti ll t h e p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r y o n t h e l in e a n d I h a n d e d o v e r th e p h o n e to h i m . A f t e r w h ic h I w a lk e d b a c k t o m y d e s k , a s y o u ’ d i m a g i n e C h a ir M i n is t e r w o u ld b e i n o n e o f t h o s e b i g g e r o ffic e s a n d I ’ d b e j u s t a d j a c e n t to h is d o o r a n d I w a lk e d b a c k a n d c lo s e d o ff th e d o o r b e h in d m e . A f t e r a f e w m i n u t e s , M i n i s t e r c a m e th r o u g h , p r o b a b ly t w o m i n u t e o r th r e e m i n u t e la t e r, c a m e t h r o u g h fr o m h i s o ff ic e a n d h a n d e d t h e p h o n e b a c k to m e a n d th e d a y c o n t in u e d . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 A n d a t t h a t s t a g e , d i d th e M i n is t e r s a y a n y th in g t o y o u a b o u t t h e c a ll ? M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: C h a i r p e r s o n n o , h e d i d n ’ t s a y a n y t h in g , h e w a lk e d b a c k t o h is o ffi c e a f te r h a n d in g o v e r th e p h o n e t o m e . CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u m e n t io n e d th a t w h e n y o u h a n d e d o v e r t h e p h o n e t o t h e M in is t e r, a t t h a t s ta g e t h e p e r s o n o n t h e l i n e w a s t h e p r i v a t e s e c r e ta r y fo r t h e P r e s id e n t a n d n o t th e P r e s i d e n t h i m s e l f? Page 36 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: CHAIRPERSON: N o i t w a s n o t. Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: E v e n t h e i n i t ia l c a l l i t w a s to s a y t o c h e c k w h e th e r M i n is te r i s c lo s e b y o r is h e i n t h e o ffic e , t o w h ic h I r e s p o n d e d i n th e a ff ir m a ti v e t o s a y, y e s h e ’s a r o u n d a n d I m u s t i n f o r m h i m h e ’ ll e x p e c t a c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : A n d i t d i d n ’ t la s t f o r t e n m in u t e s b e t w e e n t h e fi r s t c a ll t o t h e s e c o n d c a l l t o M i n is t e r t a k in g t h e p h o n e 10 a n d r e tu r n in g th e c a ll i t c o u l d h a v e l a s t e d l e s s t h a n te n m i n u t e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d y e s i t w a s n o t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t o n t h e li n e i t w a s s t il l my c o ll e a g u e w h o c a ll e d h i m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Yo u i n d ic a te i n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o n p a g e th r e e o f y o u r s t a te m e n t , y o u s a y w h a t y o u ’ v e s a i d h e r e , y o u w e r e n o t p r i v y to t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n M r Z u m a a n d M i n is t e r S a b i n e b u t y o u s a y, h o w e v e r a f t e r s p e a k i n g t o Mr Z u m a M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 H a n g o n , d o n ’ t le a d h i m o n t h a t i m p o r ta n t p a r t , s o le t h i m s a y it i f h e w a n t s t o i f t h a t’s h is e v i d e n c e w i t h o u t l e a d i n g h i m , fi n d a way of asking him without leading him. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , w h a t o c c u r r e d a f te r M i n i s te r C h a b a n e h a n d e d y o u c e l lu la r p h o n e b a c k t o y o u ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C h a ir l ik e I in d i c a t e d j u s t a m o m e n t a g o , h e w e n t b a c k to h is d e s k a n d I th i n k w e c o n t i n u e d w i t h o u r d a y i n Page 37 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t h e o ffic e b u t a t t h e p o i n t w h e n h e l e f t t h e o ffic e , o n t h e d a y, h e d i d in d i c a t e to m e t h a t h e w o u l d li k e t o t a lk to T h e m b a , t h a t ’s h o w h e p u t i t. CHAIRPERSON: W h o w a s Th e m b a ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: CHAIRPERSON: Mr M a s e k o . Mr Maseko? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s , a f t e r w h ic h I t h in k I d i d m e n t io n t o – I m i g h t h a v e c a ll e d t h e h e a d o f M r M a s e k o ’s o ffi c e a t t h e ti m e to in d i c a t e th a t M in is t e r w o u l d l ik e t o t a lk t o M r M a s e k o . CHAIRPERSON: 10 W h o d i d y o u – d i d y o u m a k e t h e c a ll to M r M a s e k o o r to s o m e b o d y e ls e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : N o C h a ir p e r s o n t h e h e a d o f M r M a s e k o ’s o ffic e i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a d ir e c t o r a t th e ti m e , m y r e c o l l e c ti o n i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n – I ’ m n o t s u r e t h is is a p p r o p r i a te b e c a u s e y o u – in t h e e a r l ie r e v i d e n c e y o u i n d ic a te d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I t w o u l d b e o n e o f t h e d ir e c to r s i n h is o ffic e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s I t h i n k h i s o ff ic e w a s h e a d e d b y d ir e c t o r a t t h a t t i m e , i t w a s a l a d y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, y e s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 A f t e r t h a t d i d y o u a n d M i n is t e r C h a b a n e h a v e c a u s e to d i s c u s s a n y th i n g f u r th e r a b o u t M i n is te r M a s e k o ? M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: N o t r e a l ly, a n d t h a t ’s w h y t h e d is t in c ti o n I m a d e C h a ir p e r s o n o f my r o le s d u r in g t h e t i m e w h e n I s e r v ic e d M i n is te r C h a b a n e t h a t th e r e w a s a p e r io d I w a s a P r i v a t e S e c r e t a r y a n d th e r e w a s a p e r i o d I w a s t h e C h i e f o f S t a ff . Th e P r i v a t e S e c r e t a r y p o s i ti o n , i n th e m a i n , i t ’s s e c r e ta r i a l o r P e r s o n a l A s s is t a n t Page 38 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 s u p p o r t t o t h e M i n is t e r, w h il e C h i e f o f S t a f f y o u c a n a r g u e t h a t y o u a r e m o r e o f a n A d m i n is tr a t o r i n C h i e f i n t h e o ffic e o f t h e M i n is t e r o r e v e n t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c e , t h e p r iv a te o ffi c e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t , d e p u ty President and so on. CHAIRPERSON: Is i t k i n d o f m a n a g e r ia l ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a i t’s a s tr a t e g ic p o s it i o n s o th e r e c o u l d b e a r e a s w h e r e y o u s i t i n m a n a g e m e n t m e e t in g s w i t h t h e M in is t e r w h e r e y o u s i t w i th t h e M i n is t e r a n d k e y M i n is t e r – I m e a n k e y m e e ti n g s in w h ic h d e c is io n s a r e t a k e n . 10 S o I d i d n ’ t d is c u s s i n d e ta il e x c e p t o n o n e o c c a s i o n o f c o u r s e w h e n h e w a s l e a v in g o ffi c e , i t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n o n t h a t d a y a n d I t h i n k [i n d is t in c t ] t o t e s ti f y t h a t h e w a s q u i te a n o p e n p e r s o n a n d ti m e s w h e n y o u – w h e n h e w a lk s o u t o f th e o ffic e C h a ir, y o u w o u l d w a lk t h r o u g h w i th h i m w i t h t h e s e c u r i ty t o t h e c a r a n d h e w o u l d ju s t s a y s o m e t h i n g a n d o n o n e o c c a s i o n h e d i d s a y t h a t w e w o u ld h a v e to m o v e T h e m b a , th a t ’s a l l h e s a i d . I d i d n ’ t a s k w h y, I j u s t s a i d , o h o k a y … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what he said? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: CHAIRPERSON: 20 We would have to move Themba. H e s a i d w e w o u ld h a v e t o m o v e Th e m b a ? M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: Ye s a n d T h e m b a , C h a i r p e r s o n , a n d m y a p o lo g i e s , I k e e p o n s a y in g T h e m b a b e c a u s e th a t ’s h o w h e p u t i t , b u t w e ’r e r e f e r r i n g t o Mr M a s e k o . CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: CHAIRPERSON: Correct. A n d h o w d o y o u r e m e m b e r h o w l o n g a f te r t h a t c a ll i t Page 39 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 w a s w h e n i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n w h e n h e s a i d t h a t , a d a y, t w o d a y s , a w e e k o r m u c h m o r e t h a n th a t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : It w o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n m o r e t h a n a week. CHAIRPERSON: It wouldn’t have been more than a…[intervenes]. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: It would not have been more than a week. CHAIRPERSON: Okay so it would be a few days? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Okay so it would be a few days? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: CHAIRPERSON: J a a f e w d a y s a f te r t h a t . J a a f e w d a y s a f te r t h a t . O k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: E x c e p t t h a t o n t h e d a y o f t h e s p e c i fi c c a l l , a n d I m u s t e m p h a s is e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t – a n d a s I’ v e s a i d b e f o r e i t w a s n o t u n u s u a l to s p e a k b e t w e e n th e p r iv a te o ff ic e s . O n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y h e o n ly s a i d to m e h e w o u l d lik e to t a lk t o T h e m b a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Are you aware if Mr Maseko was s u b s e q u e n t ly r e m o v e d a n d i f s o , h o w d id h e b e c o m e a w a r e ? 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s I t h i n k i t ’s a k n o w n f a c t M r M a s e k o w a s m o v e d . O n th e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y t h a t y e a r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 2 0 11 ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w e e k a f t e r t h is in c i d e n t th a t I’ m r e f e r r in g to C h a ir p e r s o n , i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w e e k a f te r t h i s i n c id e n t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 40 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: A f t e r th e p h o n e c a ll ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I t h i n k it w a s o n t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y t h e r e w a s a – fr o m m y r e c o r d s is t h a t o n t h e M i n is te r ’s d i a r y h e w a s i n cabinet. CHAIRPERSON: H e w a s in c a b i n e t . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Cabinet yes, he was in cabinet that day a n d c a b i n e t w a s in t h e U n i o n B u il d i n g s i f I r e c o ll e c t w e ll a n d w h a t t h e n 10 h a p p e n e d w a s th a t th e r e w a s n e w s f e e d th a t w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h , I t h in k in t h e m a i n i t w a s E N C A I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t w a s s t il l E N C A o r E T V o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t to t h e e ffe c t t h a t M r M a s e k o h a s b e e n r e m o v e d o r m o v e d fr o m t h e G C I S a s C E O a n d w o u l d b e r e p l a c e d b y Mr M a n u a l . I t h i n k t h a t’s w h a t t h e c a p ti o n o f t h e n e w s w a s b u t M i n is te r w a s i n c a b i n e t a t t h e t i m e a n d m a y b e le t m e m e n t io n th is , th e l a d y th a t I ’ m t a lk in g a b o u t i n t h e o ff ic e … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: M r M a s e k o ’s o ffic e , j a . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: On the day of cabinet and maybe let me p l a c e w i t h i n c o n t e x t C h a ir p e r s o n s o t h a t i t ’s c l e a r. O n th e d a y o f 20 c a b i n e t M r M a s e k o w a s t h e C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r o f G C I S b u t h e ’s m o s t ly c a l l e d ti t le w a s G o v e r n m e n t S p o k e s p e r s o n , s o h e s a t i n c a b i n e t a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is , p r i m a r ily it is t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t w o u ld b e t h e d e c i s i o n s th a t c a b i n e t w o u ld lik e t o b e c o m m u n ic a te d th e d a y a f t e r b e c a u s e a f te r e a c h c a b i n e t m e e t in g , a n d it ’s k n o w n , j o u r n a l is ts w o u l d k n o w t h i s t h a t G C I S w o u l d c a ll a p o s t c a b i n e t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 41 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: M e d ia c o n fe r e n c e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a I t h i n k in t h is c a s e I t h i n k it ’s M i n is t e r Th e m b a w h o d o e s th a t , s o h e d i d th a t a s C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e o f t h e G C I S , s o t h e d ir e c to r i n h is o ff ic e w o u ld b e , e it h e r i n C a p e To w n o r U n i o n B u il d i n g s - it w o u ld b e Tu i n h u is o r U n i o n B u il d i n g s o n th e d a y o f c a b i n e t to s u p p o r t Mr M a s e k o b u t s h e d o e s n ’ t s a t it i n c a b in e t , i t w o u ld b e n o r m a ll y w i t h i n t h e b u i ld i n g o r w h a t y o u ’ d c a l l a c a b i n e t l o u n g e s o t h e r e is a p la c e w h e r e , a s e v e r y o n e a r r i v e s a n d t h e y s h o u ld b e th e r e o r s h e ’ d b e r i g h t w h e r e I w a s s it t in g t h e r e w a s a c o u c h n e x t t o m y o ffi c e 10 so she would come and sit there and work because it was also a space w h e r e s h e c o u l d s i t a n d I t h i n k t h a t s h e d i d a le r t m e to t h e f a c t t h a t t h e - I th in k s h e p u t i t i n a f o r m o f a q u e s ti o n , is Mr M a s e k o b e i n g r e m o v e d , s o m e t h i n g t o t h a t e ffe c t . And so we became aware of that w h ic h w a s g o i n g t h r o u g h in t h e m e d ia a n d o n e M i n i s te r w a s d o w n i n c a b i n e t a n d I th i n k th a t ’s h o w w e c a m e to k n o w a b o u t i t a n d lik e I in d i c a t e d C h a ir, M in is t e r C h a b a n e h a d n o t s a i d a n y t h i n g t o m e a b o u t r e m o v a l e x c e p t t h a t I c o u ld o n ly p ic k u p o n th e d a y th a t h e ’s b e in g removed. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o th e r e m o v a l p a r t i n t e r m s o f w h a t h e s a i d , h e o n ly s a i d w e w o u l d h a v e t o m o v e h i m b u t w h e t h e r t h a t d e c is io n h a d b e e n f in a l is e d a n d w h e n w il l M r M a s e k o l e a v e , I d i d n ’ t k n o w e x c e p t w h e n th e n e w s s t a r t e d fi l t e r i n g o n t h e d a y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o u l d y o u p le a s e h a v e a l o o k a t a Page 42 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 d o c u m e n t , i t’s A n n e x u r e A H 1 3 , it ’s A n n e x u r e 1 , i t ’s p a g e 1 3 , A n n e x u r e 2. CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e le t ’s t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Ye s l e t ’s t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , i t ’s t w e n t y o n e m i n u t e s p a s t e le v e n , w e w i ll r e s u m e a t tw e n ty fiv e t o t w e lv e , w e adjourn. REGISTRAR: A l l r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS 10 INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s p r o c e e d . S w i t c h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Mr Hlungwani would you please h a v e r e g a r d t o A n n e x u r e A H 1 it is p a g e … CHAIRPERSON: On what page? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 7 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n i n p a r t i c u l a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n p a g e 7 o f t h e f il e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 7. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : R a th e r t h a n o n – o f h is s t a t e m e n t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O f t h e f il e I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is p a g e 7 o f E x h i b it J J 2 . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is a s ta t e m e n t o n t h e c a b i n e t m e e t in g o f th e 2 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 t h a t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t p r io r t o th e a d jo u r n m e n t . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s , y e s . Page 43 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a m g o in g to r e a d t o y o u w h a t is s a i d a t p a g e 11 o f t h e fil e a t t h e b o t to m o f th e p a g e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: “ C a b i n e t n o te d t h a t M r Th e m b a M a s e k o w a s t o b e r e d e p l o y e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n D P S A w i th i m m e d i a te e ff e c t . Mr M a s e k o w il l b e r e p l a c e d b y M r J i m m y M a n y i a s t h e n e w G o v e r n m e n t S p o k e s p e r s o n a n d C h ie f E x e c u t iv e 10 O ff ic e r of th e Government C o m m u n i c a ti o n and I n f o r m a t io n S y s t e m G C I S . ” M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Pr io r t o t h i s c a b in e t m e e t i n g o n th e 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 d i d y o u h a v e a n y p r io r k n o w l e d g e o f M r M a n y i r e p l a c i n g Mr Maseko? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d m a y I a ls o s ta r t b y s a y in g w h e n w e – w h e n I w a s c a l l e d t o t h e s ta n d I h a d n o t b e e n r e a d y t h e n s o i f y o u s e e th a t I h a v e p u t a t ie I j u s t w e n t to t h e v e h i c l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: To f e tc h i t b e c a u s e m y ti m i n g w a s … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Wa s g o i n g t o b e m id - d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I f t h e C h a ir c o u l d a ll o w m e t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . Page 44 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: L ik e I i n d ic a te d e a r l ie r o n t h e – o k a y t h e n e w s s t a r t e d – [i n d is t in c t ] t h r o u g h o n t h e 2 n d o n t h e c a b i n e t d a y. B u t on the time when he said to me we would have to move Themba I said o h o k a y a n d s o w h o w o u ld r e p l a c e h i m ? I d id a s k t h a t q u e s ti o n . B u t lo o k i t w a s a c u r s o r y t a l k a s w e w e r e w a lk i n g t o h i s v e h i c l e . He did m e n ti o n t h a t it w i ll b e J i m m y M a n y i a n d I d id n o t a s k w h y. A t t h e t i m e I knew that Mr Manyi was DG at Labour but could have been on 10 s u s p e n s i o n a t th a t p e r io d b u t I d i d n o t a s k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I d i d n o t s e e th a t t o b e a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e i t is p o s s i b l e to m o v e o n e D G t o a n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Th e n if y o u w o u l d h a v e r e g a r d t o A n n e x u r e A H 2 i t is p a g e 1 3 o f t h e s t a te m e n t . C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir w h a t th is i s ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d w i th t h e b e n e f it o f 20 h a v i n g m o v e d t o D P S A i t is th e D e p a r t – i t i s t h a t D e p a r t m e n t th a t i s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r p r e p a r in g d o c u m e n t a t i o n th a t g iv e s e ff e c t to e i t h e r a p p o i n t m e n t o f a D G b y c a b i n e t o r p r e p a r e th a t w h ic h y o u h a v e b e fo r e y o u I s e e t h is i s t h e – a n d I m u s t i n d ic a t e t h a t t h is i s w h a t th e c o m m i s s io n p la c e s b e f o r e m e . I t is n o t m y d o c u m e n t . I s e e i t is t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s m i n u t e s . I t is a n i n s tr u m e n t t h a t is u s e d to g iv e e ffe c t – a Page 45 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 d e c is i o n t h a t i s ta k e n n o m a t te r a t w h a t l e v e l . S o w h a t h a p p e n s i s th a t m a y b e i f I c o u l d il l u s tr a t e th is p o in t is t h a t if t h e p o s i ti o n o f a D G is v a c a n t a n d i t is t o b e fi ll e d i t w il l g o th r o u g h th e n o r m a l p r o c e s s o f a d v e r t is e m e n t a n d o n c e th e – t h a t p r o c e s s o f in t e r v i e w is d o n e t h e a p p o i n ti n g M i n is t e r o r w h e r e t h e D G w i ll g o to w il l w r i t e t o th e M i n is te r o f P u b l ic S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n a n d s a y I w o u l d w a n t t o f il l t h is p o s i ti o n . T h i s is h o w I h a v e s a ti s fi e d m y s e l f w i t h a l l t h e r e le v a n t p r e s c r i p t s fo r a p p o i n t m e n t . I t is t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n t h a t t a k e s t h a t c a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m t o c a b i n e t t o d e c id e 10 o n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t . H o w e v e r i f i t i s a tr a n s f e r a n d I th in k th e r e l e v a n t s e c t io n o f t h e P u b lic S e r v ic e Ac t w i ll – w i ll a t t e s t to t h is . T h e – th e r e w i ll b e s a i d D G [ A ] n e e d s t o b e m o v e d t o a p a r t ic u l a r d e p a r t m e n t fr o m w h e r e – a n d i t c a n e v e n s t a r t b y a M in is t e r s a y i n g n o I w o u l d w a n t t o tr a n s fe r m y – o r r e q u e s t t h e t r a n s f e r o f a D G fr o m a p a r tic u l a r d e p a r t m e n t b u t f ir s t ly w h a t t h e A c t s a y s is th a t th a t M in is t e r w h o w a n ts t h a t D G t r a n s f e r r e d t h e y w o u ld n e e d to r e q u e s t f o r w h a t is c a l l e d a c o n c u r r e n c e fr o m th e M i n is te r w h e r e t h a t D G i s s i t u a t e d o r is e m p l o y e d . O n c e t h a t c o n c u r r e n c e is r e c e i v e d I t h i n k t h e Ac t a ls o g o e s o n t o s a y e v e n t h e in c u m b e n t w o u ld n e e d t o g iv e c o n c u r r e n c e e it h e r h e 20 a g r e e s o r n o t to t h e tr a n s fe r. B u t I th i n k it s a y s c o n c u r r e n c e o r i f i t is in t h e p u b l ic i n t e r e s t o f – i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f th e p u b li c s e r v ic e . I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t th e A c t s a y s . S o t h e t w o M i n is t e r s w h e r e o n e D G m o v e s fr o m a n d t h e o n e – s o I c a n c a ll t h e m r e c e iv i n g a n d r e le a s i n g M i n is t e r s w o u ld b o t h h a v e t o c o n c u r. A n d o n c e t h a t p r o c e s s h a s b e e n f u lf il le d a n d t h e in c u m b e n t D G h a s c o n c u r r e d t h o s e t h r e e c o n c u r r e n c e s w o u ld Page 46 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t h e n g o t o t h e M in is t e r o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n t o p r e p a r e t h is in s tr u m e n t t h a t th e A d v o c a t e W e n tz e l i s le a d i n g i n to w h ic h i s c a l le d t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s m i n u t e . A n d I ta k e i t t h i s i s w h a t t h e M i n i s t e r o f P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n w o u l d h a v e p r e p a r e d a t t h e ti m e . Thank y o u C h a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: D o y o u r e c o g n is e th e s i g n a t u r e o f t h e M i n is t e r o f t h e C a b i n e t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I s t a n d c o r r e c t e d b u t I th i n k t h i s is M i n is t e r B a lo y i h e – M i n i s te r B a l o y i . 10 I t h i n k i t i s – h is f ir s t n a m e i s R i c h a r d B o l o y i h e w a s M i n is t e r o f P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n a t t h e ti m e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s i t w a s – t h i s i s M i n is t e r B a l o y i ’s s ig n a tu r e . I s a y s o C h a ir w i t h c o n f id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B e c a u s e I – M i n is te r C h a b a n e , M i n is t e r B a lo y i w o r k e d a lo t c l o s e ly b e c a u s e M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e p e r f o r m a n c e m o n i t o r i n g a n d e v a lu a ti o n u n it a n d p u b lic s e r v ic e in g e n e r a l y o u w il l b e h a v in g a l o t o f i n t e r a c ti o n s o n p u b li c s e r v ic e 20 m a t t e r s a n d th e r e w i ll b e a l o t o f i n t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n M in is t e r C h a b a n e a n d M in is t e r B a l o y i . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B u t t h e y s e r v e d i n m a n y fo r u m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: M in is t e r ’s c o m m i t t e e o r b u d g e t . Page 47 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : B e c a u s e w h a te v e r is d e c i d e d a t fi n a n c e s a n i m p l ic a ti o n o n w h a t t h e p u b l ic s e r v ic e w ill lo o k li k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o I c a n r e c o g n is e th is . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h i s is h i s s i g n a t u r e ? M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I th in k r e c o r d s fr o m t h e D P S A w h e r e y o u p r o b a b l y h a v e r e c e iv e d t h is m in u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C a n s h o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O r h a n d w r i t in g e x p e r ts c a n v e r if y t h i s . CHAIRPERSON: I ju s t w a n t e d to – I j u s t w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r le v e l o f c o n f i d e n c e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n s a y i n g th is i s h is . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h i s is h i s s ig n a tu r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s h is s ig n a t u r e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u c a n s e e fr o m t h e m in u te t h a t i t is s i g n e d o n t h e 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 th a t i s t h e d a y a ft e r t h e c a b i n e t m e e t in g . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n s e e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n y o u r e x p e r ie n c e h o w l o n g w o u l d i t u s u a l ly t a k e to g e t t h e s t a g e w h e r e s u c h a m i n u t e w a s s i g n e d a f te r a d e c is io n Page 48 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 had been taken in cabinet M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: W e l l C h a ir I n e v e r d e a lt w i th m a t t e r s o f t h is n a t u r e th e n . B u t t h is is a l e g a l in s tr u m e n t w h ic h is c a l l e d t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s m in u t e w h i c h th e Pr e s i d e n t is t h e f i n a l s i g n a t o r y to it . S o t h e r e w o u ld b e a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e D ir e c t o r L e g a l w il l n e e d t o b e in v o lv e d in t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f a d o c u m e n t li k e t h i s a n d fr o m m y e x p e r i e n c e w h e n I w a s a t D P S A m a y b e le t m e u s e t h e is s u e o f c a b i n e t memorandum. T h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a p e r s o n w h o d r a f ts th e m e m o r a n d u m i n te r n a l ly. T h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r G o v e r n a n c e w o u ld s i g n t h a t 10 memorandum. s ig n th a t T h e D D G – D e p u t y D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l G o v e r n a n c e w i ll memorandum and th e n f in a l ly the DG w il l sign that m e m o r a n d u m b e fo r e th e M in is t e r – w h e r e i t s a y s M i n i s te r o f C a b in e t s ig n s i t . S o – s o if y o u w o r k b a c k w a r d i t m e a n b y t h e ti m e t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t fr o m w h a t I s e e b e i n g h i s s i g n a t u r e h e r e w h e n i t i s d a t e d t h e 3 r d s o i t m e a n s w h e r e i t c o u ld h a v e b e g u n s o m e d a y s b e f o r e . I c a n n o t – I c a n n o t s a y h o w lo n g i t w i ll ta k e . L o o k d e p a r t m e n t s d i ffe r, o th e r s a r e f a s t e r, o th e r s a r e s l o w e r a n d – o r – a n d i t d e p e n d s o n th e p r o c e s s e s t h a t p e o p le p u t i n a d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t. I k n o w th a t f o r c a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m a t th e ti m e w h e n M i n is t e r w a s M i n is t e r o f P u b li c 20 S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n i s tr a t io n w e w e r e a l w a y s a d v is e d i f d e p a r t m e n t s c o u l d g iv e u s m e m o r a n d u m in t i m e . B u t w h a t is k e y is t h i s th a t c a b i n e t s i ts e v e r y s e c o n d w e e k . S o t h e w e e k p r i o r c a b i n e t m e e ti n g i t w i ll b e w h a t is c a l le d c a b in e t c o m m i t t e e s . It i s n o t fu ll c a b in e t a n d i n t h o s e c a b i n e t c o m m i t t e e s i s w h e r e y o u h a v e i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n P r e s i d e n t a n d D e p u ty P r e s id e n t C h a i r s b u t D e p u t y Mi n is te r s s i ts t h e r e . Page 49 of 80 But 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 b e c a u s e D e p u ty M i n i s te r s a r e n o t m e m b e r s o f c a b i n e t t h e y d o n o t s i t i n f u ll c a b in e t i t o n ly s i ts i n – e v e r y s e c o n d w e e k . So I would assume p r o c e s s w i s e t h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r o c e s s e d b e fo r e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Yo u t e s ti f ie d t h a t a t th e e n d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 o n e o f f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Mr Z u m a ’s s e c r e ta r y ’s c a ll e d y o u a n d s a i d t h a t th e y w e r e o v e r s e a s . D o y o u k n o w w h o c a ll e d y o u ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h o e x a c t ly w h o c a ll e d b u t I c a n y o u k n o w l ik e I s a y i n o n e o f th e p a r a g r a p h s i n m y s t a te m e n t t o s a y i t w a s n o t u n u s u a l . 10 A n d I c a n u s e o n e o f ty p i c a l e x a m p l e i n – o n th e d a y f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t N d a d a M a n d e la p a s s e d o n w e w e r e t h e o n e s w h o w e r e b r o u g h t a t t h e ti m e a n d a m e s s a g e c a m e t h r o u g h to s a y a r e y o u g u y s s t il l in a b r o a d a n d I s a i d – it c a m e t h r o u g h t o m e a s a s m s a n d I s a id y e s b u t w e w i ll b e b o a r d in g e a r l y h o u r s o f the morning from Dubai back home and they said please advise M i n is t e r t h a t P r e s i d e n t w il l b e a d d r e s s i n g t h e n a t i o n i n t h e n e x t t h ir ty m i n u t e s j u s t to a n n o u n c e t h e p a s s i n g a w a y o f fo r m e r P r e s id e n t M a n d e la . To w h ic h I – I w a s a c tu a l ly f in a l is i n g th e p a c k in g in m y r o o m w h e r e w e w e r e b e c a u s e w e w e r e t o d e p a r t f o r t h e a ir p o r t a t t h e ti m e . S o I q u i c k l y fi n i s h e d a n d t h e n I c a l le d h i m o n h is la n d l in e in t h e h o t e l 20 r o o m I s a y h e y M in is t e r w e n e e d t o t a lk i m m e d i a te ly – u r g e n tl y a n d t h e n I w a lk e d t o h i s r o o m a n d th e n I i n fo r m e d h i m t h a t { in d i s ti n c t ] N d a d a h a s p a s s e d o n a n d t h e n w e q u i c k l y l e ft f o r t h e a ir p o r t . S o I a m s a y in g it w a s n o t – i t w a s n o t u n u s u a l. CHAIRPERSON: Unusual. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : Ev e r y n o w a n d th e n i t w o u l d h a p p e n Page 50 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 yes. If and there was a message to be relayed to the Minister often the t w o p r i v a t e o ffic e r s w o u l d c o m m u n i c a t e th r o u g h t h e o ff ic ia ls . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a s o I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c tl y b u t I d o – o r k n o w t h e c a ll [i n d is t in c t] w e w o r k e d w i th d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir h o w m a n y p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r i e s t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a d a t t h e ti m e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I t h i n k h e h a d t h r e e b u t le t m e q u a li fy t o s a y th e r e is a p r iv a te s e c r e t a r y a p p o i n t e d I t h i n k i t is a t t h e l e v e l o f a 10 d ir e c t o r a n d o t h e r t w o a s s is t a n t – w h a t is c a l l e d a s s is t a n t p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r y. A n d I s a y t h is C h a ir b e c a u s e th is is h o w t h e M i n is te r i a l h a n d b o o k I t h in k t h a t is h o w h e d e f in e s it if I a m n o t m is ta k e n . S o y e s t h e r e w e r e th r e e a t t h e ti m e . J a – th a t p e r io d th e r e w e r e th r e e . I jo in e d 2 0 1 0 a n d I t h i n k a l m o s t a ll o f t h e m w e r e t h e r e a t th e ti m e w h e n I a r r iv e d h e r e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d o y o u k n o w t h e ir n a m e s ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s I t h i n k t h e p r iv a te s e c r e ta r y to t h e President was am I – ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : I th i n k i t w a s M s D e ls e y S i t h o l e a t t h e ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u c a n t e l l t h e n a m e s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : As s is t e d b y M s N o n h l a n h l a M a j e k e o r M a je I c a n s p e l l t h a t – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r if it is M a j e k e o r M a j e k e a n d t h e o th e r PA w a s M il k a . Page 51 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e th ir d o n e w a s ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: M s M i lk a B o s o g a . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: Ye s . I t w a s th o s e th r e e p r iv a te s e c r e t a r i e s t o t h e Pr e s id e n t – f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t a t t h e t i m e . A D V J U L I E A N N H O WA R D : H m . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And are there any of those three who you c o u l d d is c o u n t o r y o u t h in k i t w o u l d b e u n li k e ly w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o called you? 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I am – I would – I would not – anyone w h o h a d c a ll e d – o k a y m a y b e l e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y C h a ir. Th e r e a s o n w h y w e s a i d t h r e e P r e s id e n t – t h r e e p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r i e s w e d o n o t m e a n t h a t a t a n y g i v e n ti m e t h e th r e e a r e w i t h h i m . T h e y w e r e s h a r in g r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . S o – s o I d o r e c a l l o n t h e v e r y f ir s t d a y I s t a r te d w o r k i n g o n th e 1 5 M a r c h w h e n I w a lk e d in t o t h e o ffi c e t h e r e I w a s t o l d I n e e d to g o t o a d i a r y m e e t in g . So what was h a p p e n in g w a s th e o ffic e o r th e p r i v a t e o ffic e f o r th e P r e s i d e n t , th e 20 D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t, M i n is t e r in the P r e s id e n c y fo r p e r fo r m a n c e m o n i t o r in g w h ic h is u s a n d M i n is t e r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y f o r n a ti o n a l p l a n n in g c o m m i s s i o n w h i c h w a s Mi n is t e r M a n u e l a t t h e ti m e w o u l d m e e t a n d d is c u s s a n d s h a r e d i a r ie s . Because that was key for planning. T h a t w a s a l s o k e y fo r p u r p o s e s o f p r o t o c o l a n d lo g is ti c s a n d a l l o f t h a t. S o o n c e i t is a g r e e d t o t h e y w o u ld – w e w il l a ll d is p e r s e t o o u r Page 52 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 r e s p e c ti v e p r i v a t e o ff ic e s a n d s h a r e r e s p o n s i b il it i e s a n d i n t h e c a s e o f p r i v a t e o ffic e o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t I th in k th e y w e r e s h a r in g r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s s o o n e w o u l d ta k e – I d o n o t k n o w h o w i t w a s a ll o c a te d p r o b a b ly t h r e e d a y s , a n o t h e r o n e th r e e d a y s . S o a t a n y g iv e n ti m e a n d y o u w il l a l s o r e c a l l t h a t w h e n f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s h e r e h e d i d m e n ti o n I t h i n k w h e n h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o t h e [i n d is t in c t] t h a t w o u l d h a v e g o n e to h is PA f r o m the ANC side. r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . S o y e s b u t in t h e o ffi c e th e r e w e r e th r e e a n d s h a r e A n y o n e w o u l d c a l l a t a n y g iv e n ti m e i f t h e r e is a m e s s a g e t o b e r e l a y e d to t h e f o r m e r M i n i s t e r. J u s t l ik e i n t h e o ffic e I 10 w a s a p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r y b u t I h a d a n a s s is t a n t p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . I f w e c o u l d m o v e to a fi n a l a s p e c t . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e te ll th e C h a ir w h a t o c c u r r e d o n t h e 1 6 J u ly 2 0 1 9 w h ic h t h e r e c o r d w i ll s h o w i s t h e d a y t h a t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t Mr J a c o b Zu m a w a s te s ti fy in g w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e r e m o v a l o f M r M a s e k o . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: W e ll C h a ir a n d m a y b e l e t m e a l s o s a y t h is i s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I s a i d e a r l i e r o n t h a t I w o u l d h a v e p r e f e r r e d n o t to – to b e h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B e c a u s e i t t u r n s o u t t o m e t h a t o n t h a t 20 d a y t h e r e w a s a l o t o f s o c ia l m e d i a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B a c k a n d f o r t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h e – th e m e d i a r e p o r t s d o s h o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e r e p o r t s w h e r e t h e m e d i a w a s r e p o r t in g a b o u t t h a t Page 53 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t e s ti m o n y. S o I d id g e t o n e c a l l a n d i t s a i d s o m e t h i n g l ik e y o u d a r e s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e – w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t th e r e m o v a l o f M r M a s e k o a n d – b u t I d i d n o t ta k e it s e r i o u s C h a ir b e c a u s e I a m n o t o n s o c i a l media so I did not see what had happened. O n ly w h e n M r B r e n t S i m o n s w h o te s ti fi e d b e fo r e m e in f o r m e d m e t h a t h e h a d t w e e t e d a n d t h e r e w a s a b a c k a n d f o r th a n d w h a t – s o I t h o u g h t m a y b e t h a t w a s b e c a u s e o f th a t . I h a d n o t r a is e d t h i s w i t h a n y o n e e x c e p t c l o s e fa m i ly. My younger brother and my cousin. O n l y w h e n t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s in v e s t i g a t o r s a p p r o a c h e d m e I th e n o p e n e d u p . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . B u t I c a n – I c a n a s s u r e t h e C h a ir t h a t th e – it w a s o n t h a t d a y a n d I d i d n o t ta k e i t s e r io u s I m u s t b e – I m u s t b e h o n e s t . I m e a n t h e – e v e n t h e c o l le a g u e s t h a t I m e n ti o n e d a s b e i n g f o r m e r p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r i e s o f t h e P r e s id e n t th e y a r e v e r y g o o d c o l l e a g u e s o f m i n e a n d t h e o th e r ti m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: W e w e r e fl y in g t o C a p e To w n a n d I w a s w i t h M ilk a i n th e p l a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d w e g r e e te d a n d s o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I n e v e r to o k a n y t h in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I d i d n o t ta k e it s e r i o u s I m u s t b e honest. Page 54 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O n ly th e n t h a t I s t a r te d – w h e n I h e a r d what had been happening in the social media which even today I have decided not to check what it was. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u s a y y o u – s o m e b o d y c a ll e d . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r s e n t a t e x t m e s s a g e . Wa s i t c a l li n g ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I t w a s fir s t a c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: Somebody called? 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Fr o m a p r i v a t e - Ye s . I h a v e g iv e n th e d e t a i ls t o t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A p r iv a t e c a l l a n d t h e n a te x t w h ic h is r e fl e c t e d I th i n k o n p a g e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I th i n k I s a w i t . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 6 ja w h i c h I c a n n o t s a y o n n a ti o n a l television. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A t th is p o in t – t e l e v is i o n y e s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. B u t w h ic h – w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h e m e s s a g e s o u g h t to – to s a y t h e l e a s t d is c o u r a g e y o u fr o m s a y i n g a n y th in g a b o u t t h e r e m o v a l o f M r M a s e k o w o u ld t h a t b e c o r r e c t? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: E x a c t ly i t w a s a b o u t t h a t y e s . Page 55 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y th e l e a s t th a t is w h a t it w a s ? M R A B E D N I G O H LU N G WA N I: Correct. T h e p r i v a t e c a l l – th e v o i c e call. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a t is e x a c t ly w h a t i t s a i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t it s a id . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir th a t c o n c lu d e s t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m m y s i d e – fr o m t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s s id e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d y o u m u s t j u s t t e ll m e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s c o r r e c t. Yo u r e m e m b e r t h is p a r t ic u l a r – t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r t w o c a lls i n 2 0 11 a b o u t a w e e k o r s o b e f o r e t h e 2 A p r i l 2 0 11 w h ic h c a m e fr o m o n e o f t h e p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r ie s o f th e fo r m e r President. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h e fir s t o n e s a i d a r e y o u c l o s e t o o r n e a r t h e M i n is t e r C h a b a n e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C o r r e c t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u s a id y e s a n d t h e n t h e c a ll e r a s k e d y o u t o in f o r m M i n i s te r C h a b a n e t h a t – to in f o r m h i m t o e x p e c t a c a ll fr o m t h e former President. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . Page 56 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d w i th in te n m i n u t e s o r s o t h e s e c o n d c a ll came? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m t h e s a m e p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r y ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t c a m e th r o u g h y o u r c e l l p h o n e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n th e m e a n t i m e y o u h a d i n f o r m e d Mr C h a b a n e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : To e x p e c t a c a l l fr o m t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h e n y o u g o t t h e c a l l – th e s e c o n d c a l l y o u w a lk e d t o M r C h a b a n e ’s o ffi c e a n d h a n d e d h i m t h e p h o n e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e p h o n e – y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d b a s i c a ll y s a id h e r e is t h e c a l l y o u – I t o ld y o u a b o u t e a r li e r ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? A n d th e n y o u le f t th e o ffic e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s I w a l k e d b a c k t o m y d e s k . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e o n e th i n g t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s y o u d o n o t k n o w f o r s u r e w h e th e r t h e p e r s o n t h a t M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s p o k e t o . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: To – y e s . CHAIRPERSON: On the phone. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t ? Page 57 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll y o u k n o w is th a t y o u w e r e t o l d th a t h e w a s … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: H e w a n ts t o – y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a n te d to s p e a k . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To M i n is t e r C h a b a n e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e n o t p r iv y t o t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 10 N o a n d I s a y s o in m y s t a t e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t y o u d o s a y a t t h e – l a t e r i n t h e d a y, is i t correct? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n l e s s th a n a n h o u r a f te r – h e w a lk e d o u t o f th e o ffic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Pr o b a b ly w i t h i n a n h o u r o r s o w h e n h e w a s le a v in g o ffic e o r a t l e a s t h e w a s w a l k i n g o u t o f t h e o ffi c e h e m e n t i o n e d t o y o u th a t h e w o u ld li k e t o s p e a k t o M r M a s e k o . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d d i d h e in d i c a t e w h e n h e w o u l d l ik e to s p e a k 20 to him? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o h e d id n o t. CHAIRPERSON: He just made that statement. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: He just made a statement. What I did w a s t o i n f o r m t h e d ir e c t o r i n h is o ffic e – M r M a s e k o ’s o ff ic e t h a t M i n is t e r w o u ld w a n t t o s p e a k to M r M a s e k o – Page 58 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : I a m s o r r y M r C h a b a n e w o u ld li k e t o s p e a k t o M r M a s e k o a t th e g iv e n ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u d o n o t k n o w i f a n d w h e n t h e y s p o k e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : P u r s u a n t to t h a t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : N o I d o n o t k n o w. I – w i t h h i n d s ig h t I c a n o n l y r e c a ll w h a t M r M a s e k o s a i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A n d t h e n y o u s a y t h a t th e n e x t t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d w a s o n t h e 2 F e b r u a r y, is th a t r i g h t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 2 n d F e b r u a r y t h a t w a s th e d a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O f t h e c a b i n e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t i s it t h a t m a k e s y o u r e m e m b e r th o s e tw o c a l ls s o w e ll ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o – th e – t h e o n e o n t h e – t h e o n e t h a t I was… 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e t h a t c a m e f r o m t h e p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r i e s a s k i n g y o u w h e t h e r y o u w e r e n e a r o r w i th M in is t e r C h a b a n e a n d t h e o n e th a t c a m e a ft e r t h a t t o y o u s a y t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t w a n t e d to s p e a k to M i n is t e r C h a b a n e . W h a t m a k e s y o u r e m e m b e r t h o s e c a lls s o w e l l a f t e r so many years? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C h a ir p e r s o n lik e I s a i d i t w a s n o t Page 59 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 u n u s u a l f o r – f o r c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n th e p r i v a t e o ffi c e s o r th e M i n is t e r a n d a s I s a id – I d o s a y t h e r e w i ll b e c a ll s n o w a n d th e n th a t h a p p e n b e t w e e n t h e o ffi c e s o r t h e o ffi c e o f t h e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e p r iv a t e o ffic e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t . A n d I d o r e c a l l t h a t to th e b e s t o f m y r e c o l l e c ti o n i t w a s o n – a r o u n d t h a t p e r i o d . A n d I a l s o – li k e I d o m e n ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t a t a n y g iv e n ti m e w h e n s o m e t h i n g w a s r e q u ir e d m a y b e l e t m e u s e t h e – th e s p e c i fic e x a m p l e w h e r e w e e k o f t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a t io n f o r e x a m p l e . W e i n C a p e To w n a n d – a n d c a ll s w i ll c o m e a n d s a y w h e r e i s M i n is te r w e w o u l d w a n t h i m t o l o o k a t t h e – 10 to look at the statement before. Or maybe to make an input to the s t a te m e n t . S o I a m s a y in g a n d I t h in k lik e Br e n t w a s in d ic a t i n g th a t h e w a s t o l d t h i s is h o w it h a p p e n e d b u t I d o r e c a l l C h a ir t o s a y o n – a r o u n d t h a t p e r io d th is is – t h i s is t h e c a ll th a t c a m e t h r o u g h . A ll I d o n o t k n o w is w h a t th e d is c u s s i o n w a s o n t h e p h o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e th e f a c t t h a t y o u s a y it w a s n o t u n u s u a l f o r y o u to g e t c a l ls fr o m t h e f o r m e r p r i o r – fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t ’s p r i v a t e s e c r e t a r i e s t h a t s h o u ld – s h o u l d m a k e i t d i ff ic u l t fo r y o u to r e m e m b e r a p a r t ic u l a r c a ll . I f i t w a s u n u s u a l fo r th e p r iv a te s e c r e t a r i e s t o c a l l y o u t h e n it – I w o u ld u n d e r s ta n d th a t y o u – y o u d o n o t r e – y o u c a n n o t 20 f o r g e t th e i r c a ll b e c a u s e i t w a s u n u s u a l b u t i f y o u s a y i t w a s u s u a l f o r t h e m t o b e i n t o u c h w i t h y o u to c a l l y o u t h a t s e e m s to s u g g e s t to m e t h a t th a t i s a r e a s o n th a t s h o u ld s u g g e s t t h a t y o u s h o u l d n o t e a s ily r e m e m b e r a n y p a r ti c u l a r c a l l fr o m t h e m . W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I : I – I t a k e t h e p o in t C h a i r p e r s o n b u t t h e – p e r h a p s t h e e v e n ts th a t fo ll o w e d th e r e a ft e r a n d i t … Page 60 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e ll th a t is – b a s ic a lly I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t h o w y o u o u t o f a ll t h e c a l ls t h a t y o u m a y h a v e r e c e iv e d fr o m e i t h e r th a t p a r t ic u l a r p r iv a te s e c r e t a r y o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t d u r i n g a c e r ta in p e r i o d o f ti m e o v e r s o m e – m a y b e s o m e y e a r s o r fr o m t h e p r iv a t e s e c r e t a r i e s o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w h y w o u l d y o u r e m e m b e r t h is p a r t ic u l a r o n e ? S o th a t is w h a t I w a n t to t r y a n d u n d e r s ta n d . O r t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r t w o . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n b u t a s I s a y o n t h a t – th e e v e n ts t h a t fo ll o w e d t h e r e a f te r j u s t g a v e m e t h is 10 p a r t ic u l a r i m p r e s s io n t h a t p r o b a b ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l m e a b o u t t h a t i m p r e s s io n ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t g o t – I g o t w a s th a t w h y w o u l d o n th is p a r t ic u l a r s e v e n d a y s i f I w e r e t o p u t i t th is w a y. T h r e e t h i n g s h a p p e n e d , th e c a l l , w e w o u l d h a v e to m o v e T h e m b a i n h is w o r d s . I w il l n e e d t o s p e a k t o T h e m b a . A lt h o u g h o f c o u r s e t o s p e a k t o Themba as well would be something that he would do every now and then. C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld b e u s u a l ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s t h a t w i ll b e u s u a l . N o w – a n d th e n 20 c o m e s t h e n e w s th a t h a p p e n s o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d a y a n d th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w o n t h e 2 n d F e b r u a r y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O n t h e 2 n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . A n d – a n d i m m e d i a te ly t h a t h a p p e n s a n d i t – I t h i n k t h e n e w s w a s t o th e e ffe c t t h a t h e i s b e in g Page 61 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 r e p l a c e d i n o t h e r w o r d s h e h a s a l r e a d y b e e n r e p la c e d a n d h e w a s s t il l in c a b i n e t b y th e w a y w h ic h m e a n s i f h e w a s r e p l a c e d h e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n i n c a b in e t o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a y b e c a u s e h e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n – s o i t c r e a t e d th a t i m p r e s s io n th a t p r o b a b ly th e r e is a li n k b e t w e e n t h e c a ll a n d t h e s u b s e q u e n t e v e n t s t h a t h a p p e n e d . T h e d i ff ic u l ty C h a ir th a t – a n d I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h a t C h a ir is a s k in g i s t h a t I c a n n o t s ta n d h e r e a n d s a y I h e a r d P r e s i d e n t Z u m a s a y r e m o v e T h e m b a M a s e k o . I c a n n o t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I c o u ld o n ly m a k e th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d j u s t a s a n – a n d a s I in d i c a t e C h a ir p e r s o n h e d i d n o t e x p l ic i t ly t e ll m e t h a t I h a v e b e e n i n s tr u c t e d t o remove. C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e m o v e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s h e d i d n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d id n o t s a y t h a t j a . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o h e d id n o t s a y t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B u t a s I – a s I r e c a l l i t I d o r e c a l l a r o u n d t h a t p e r i o d t h is c a l l h a p p e n e d a n d th e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t s h e w a s Page 62 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 abroad. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t s u b s e q u e n t d e v e l o p m e n ts . Is t h a t b e c a u s e th o s e s u b s e q u e n t d e v e lo p m e n ts c r e a t e d a c e r t a i n i m p r e s s io n o n y o u ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d o r c r e a t e d i n y o u r m in d o r a li n k , is th a t w h a t h a p p e n e d , is t h a t w h a t d i d n o t h a p p e n ? I a m t r y i n g t o understand why… M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a n y y e a r s a f te r. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A f te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w il l r e m e m b e r t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r c a lls . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I d o – I – o n t h i s – a s I e x p la i n e d o n th e 2 n d w h e n t h is n e w s s t a r te d fi l te r i n g a n d p e r s o n a l ly I h a d n o t k n o w n t h a t he is moving except when he said we would have to move Themba. But a t t h e s a m e t i m e t h e p a p e r w o r k o r a n y t h i n g t o t h a t e ffe c t I h a d n o t s e e n it . N o w w h e n t h a t h a p p e n e d j u s t i m m e d i a t e ly I t h e n r e c a l le d th a t th e r e w a s t h is d is c u s s i o n w h e n – b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e s u b s e q u e n t n e w s t o s a y T h e m b a d id n o t a g r e e a n d a l l o f t h a t t o g o a n d a l l t h a t b u t I 20 – a s I t r y a n d r e c o l l e c t I c a n r e m e m b e r t h e ti m e t h e c a l l h a p p e n e d a n d I s a i d m a y b e p r o b a b ly i t is th is . H o w e v e r i t is q u i t e d i ff ic u l t to s i t h e r e a n d s a y I k n o w t h is is w h a t th e c a l l w a s a l l a b o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o y o u m u s t n o t s a y y o u k n o w s o m e t h in g y o u d o n o t k n o w. S o o u r in t e r e s t i s j u s t t o e s ta b li s h w h a t h a p p e n e d . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u . Page 63 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 CHAIRPERSON: Who knows what? It d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h ic h s id e i t g o e s . W e - w e ju s t w a n t th e tr u t h . Yo u k n o w. S o - s o p r io r to t h e c a lls - t h e tw o c a lls o n t h e p a r ti c u la r d a y t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d w h ic h r e l a t e d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t w a n ti n g to s p e a k to M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e w a s i t u s u a l f o r y o u o r f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s t a ff t o p h o n e o n y o u r p h o n e w h e n t h e Pr e s id e n t w a n t e d t o s p e a k t o Mr C h a b a n e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Or was it unusual? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o it - i t w a s u s u a l . T h e y w o u l d c a l l. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s u s u a l? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a , j a . M a y b e l e t m e i ll u s tr a te i t i n th is w a y. H is - h i s d e s k w a s p r o b a b l y th e d is t a n c e b e tw e e n m e a n d y o u b u t t h e r e w i ll d o o r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: In b e t w e e n ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e M in is t e r n o w ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s o r r y. S o i f t h e r e is a 20 c a l l a n d th e n I - I p i c k u p t h e c a ll . T h e y s a y is M in is t e r i s c l o s e d t o y o u . M a y I a l s o m e n ti o n f o r e x a m p l e t h e h e a d o f t h e p r iv a te o ffic e a n d I w o r k e d v e r y, v e r y c l o s e ly w i t h h e r Ms L a k e l a K a u n d a . She was the h e a d o f t h e P r i v a t e O ffic e o f th e Pr e s id e n t a t t h e ti m e a n d - a n d w e w o u ld - s h e w o u l d - s o I w o u l d w a lk t o h is d e s k b e c a u s e it w i ll b e c lo s e d o r ju s t lik e Br e n t in d i c a t e d w e w o u l d tr a v e l t o g e t h e r in t h e c a r Page 64 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 s o m e t i m e s a n d th e y - t h e y w il l c a l l. I w i ll h a n d o v e r th e p h o n e i f - I d o r e c a ll a n o t h e r c a ll t h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d o n a n u n r e l a t e d m a t t e r. ti m e . M i n is t e r C h a b a n e was W e w e r e i n S y r ia a t th e accompanying fo r m e r D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t M o tl a n th e a n d - a n d a c a ll c a m e a n d I w a s s i t ti n g w i th h i m in a r e s ta u r a n t a n d I h a n d e d o v e r t h e c a l l. I t w a s a n u n r e l a t e d m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON: S o a r e y o u s a y i n g t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n c a lls t h a t y o u r e m e m b e r s p e c i f ic a l ly e v e n a f te r m a n y y e a r s h a v e - h a v e p a s s e d … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . I a m s a y i n g th a t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o y o u r … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: J a . L ik e i n c lu d in g th a t o n e o f - o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : In c l u d i n g t h a t … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O f t h a t p e r i o d o f 2 0 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I a m c i t in g a n o t h e r o n e w h e r e w e i n Syria. We are now abroad. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I a m a ls o c i ti n g a n - h e n c e I a ls o in d i c a t e t h e is s u e o f w o r k i n g c lo s e ly w i t h M s - Ms K a u n d a . 20 For e x a m p l e w h e n I w a s C h i e f o f S t a ff a t th e D P S A l o n g a f t e r - p r o b a b l y a b o u t s i x m o n t h s a f t e r M i n is t e r C h a b a n e h a d p a s s e d o n . O n t h e n i g h t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s to a n n o u n c e t h e m o v e m e n t o r th e - w h a t is n o r m a ll y c a l l e d C a b i n e t r e s h u ff l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I w a s in N a m ib i a i n s u p p o r t t o th e - I Page 65 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 t h i n k i t w a s t h e D G a t t h e t i m e . I c a n n o t r e c a l l - a t th e D P S A a n d s h e c o u r te s y i n f o r m e d m e a s t h e C h ie f o f S t a ff y o u a r e H e a d o f t h e M i n is t e r ’s O ffi c e . S o n o r m a l ly t h i n g s th a t h a p p e n e d th e r e y o u h a v e g o t t o b e - e i th e r n e e d to k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w - n e e d to k n o w th e m ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C o r r e c t t h e r e , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I w a s i n N a m i b i a . I t w a s in t h e e v e n i n g . S h e t e x t e d - i t w a s n o t a t e x t . I t w a s a n e m a il I t h i n k fr o m h e r G m a il to 10 my Gmail. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Ms K a u n d a ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: M s K a u n d a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e H e a d o f th e Pr iv a te O ff ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o w w h a t I a m - w h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h a t a s t h e H e a d o f t h e Pr iv a te O ff ic e s h e t h e n t a lk s t o t h e C h i e f o f S t a ff in the M i n i s tr y. In th is case me. I was s t il l C h ie f of S t a ff . M i n is t e r M t h e th w a w a s a c t in g a n d s h e w a s i n f o r m in g m e t h a t y o u 20 t h e r e w i ll b e a n a n n o u n c e m e n t a n d M in i s t e r R a m a t l h o d i w il l b e y o u r M i n is t e r. Th e p o in t I a m r a is in g i s t h a t a ll o f t h e s e t h i n g s d o h a v e ( in d is ti n c t) . I r e c a ll it w a s i n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . I r e c a ll t h a t o n e . CHAIRPERSON: S o - s o b a s ic a lly w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is th e r e a r e o th e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w h ic h y o u c a n s ti ll r e m e m b e r q u i te w e ll ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h e d e t a i ls o f … Page 66 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n a f t e r s o m a n y y e a r s ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t d o n o t n e c e s s a r il y - s o i t i s n o t j u s t th is o n e ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o it is n o t t h is o n e o n ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I s a i d i t , j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: And I can in d ic a t e that as I am in d i c a t in g th a t a n d I w il l e v e n r e m e m b e r w h a t it w a s a ll a b o u t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u w o u ld e v e n r e m e m b e r w h a t i t w a s a ll a b o u t? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C h a ir p e r s o n I g a v e a n e x a m p l e o n t h e d a y f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t M a n d e l a d i e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: W e w e r e i n D u b a i w i t h M i n is t e r C h a b a n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 20 A n d - a n d i t w a s i n d i c a t e d t h a t p le a s e in f o r m M i n is te r t h a t Pr e s id e n t - fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w il l m a k e a s t a te m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: On the passing away of former P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la a n d t h e r e l e v a n c e o f t h a t i s t h a t h e w a s M i n i s t e r i n t h e Pr e s id e n c y a n d t h e C h a ir o f t h e I n t e r M i n i s t e r i a l C o m m i t t e e i n Page 67 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 c h a r g e o f s ta t e fu n e r a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I n o t h e r w o r d s t h e C o m m i t t e e th a t h a d to prepare … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: For th e funeral of fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la a n d h e n e e d e d t o k n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h a t m e s s a g e c a m e t h r o u g h m e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And you (intervenes). M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Th a t w a s t h e 5 t h - 5 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 . We all know when - when he passed on. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u s a y y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t - t h a t c a ll c a m e w h e n y o u w e r e p a c k i n g in y o u r h o t e l r o o m … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Pr e p a r i n g t o l e a v e w i t h M i n is te r C h a b a n e t o th e a ir p o r t … 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In D u b a i ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . On the day - on that day he - he lik e d g o l f. S o h e h a d g o n e o u t f o r a r o u n d o f g o l f t h a t a f t e r n o o n . S o w h e n w e r e tu r n e d h e h a d to g o t o th e - to h i s r o o m t o r e fr e s h a n d a l s o fi n i s h a l s o m y p a c k i n g b e f o r e w e c o u l d d e p a r t f o r t h e - f o r th e a ir p o r t . Page 68 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 I n fa c t o n t h a t n ig h t w e w e r e t a k i n g a 0 4 : 4 0 fl ig h t . I t i s 2 0 t o fi v e i n th e m o r n in g i f I - i f I r e c a ll th a t fl i g h t l e a v e s D u b a i a t 0 4 : 4 0 a n d l a n d s a t O R Ta m b o a t a r o u n d 1 0 : 5 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I t is a d a i ly fl ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: So it was on 5 December and former President had passed on … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a t e v e n i n g b u t w e w e r e a b r o a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: And we were about to leave. So I q u ic k ly w e n t b a c k - I w e n t t o h i m . I c a l le d h i m o n h is la n d l in e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h e n r e la y e d t h e m e s s a g e a n d - a n d I th i n k h e s t a r t e d a u c ti o n i n g to s p e a k to o th e r p e o p l e a t t h e ti m e w h o were back home. 20 I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n p a r t ic u l a r t h e D G a n d t h e President who - who would have been the secretariat or key person in t e r m s o f t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h e - o f t h e f u n e r a l a n d w e w e n t t o th e a ir p o r t a n d b o a r d e d a n d l a n d e d t h e f o ll o w i n g m o r n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w g o i n g b a c k t o 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 d i d - y o u d i d n o t Page 69 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 h a v e a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i t h M r M a s e k o d ir e c tly h i m s e l f o n t h a t d a y ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: M y s e l f ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s e l f, ja . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o C h a ir p e r s o n . I - I c a n s a y it h e r e . I - I h a r d l y s p o k e t o Mr M a s e k o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a r d ly s p o k e t o Mr M a s e k o ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: No. He was a Government spokesperson … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d th e k e y p e o p le th a t h e w o u ld ta lk t o w o u ld b e s p o k e s p e r s o n s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O f v a r i o u s m i n is tr i e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d I t h i n k a t t h e ti m e w e - t h e r e w a s a s p o k e s p e r s o n fo r M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e a n d a s Br e n t te s ti fi e d i t w a s n o t h i m a t th e ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 20 So he - Mr Maseko would have spoken to spokespersons … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: M a i n ly a n d in t h a t c a s e a n d o f c o u r s e I do know he worked a lo t w i th the former spokesperson to M i n is t e r C h a b a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d in - i n te r m s o f g e t t in g p h o n e c a ll s w h e r e th e Page 70 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 P r iv a t e S e c r e t a r i e s o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w o u l d b e w a n ti n g to s p e a k t o M i n is te r C h a b a n e d id y o u s a y - a fe w m in u te s a g o - d i d y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f th o s e o r n o t r e a ll y ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I - I - t h e p o i n t i s I c a n n o t s a y w e e k ly, d a il y o r m o n t h ly b u t a t a n y g i v e n ti m e w h e n t h e r e is m e s s a g e to … CHAIRPERSON: They would come. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B e r e l a y e d o r t o a s s ig n a r e s p o n s i b i li t y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: To M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e i t w i ll c o m e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d m a y b e j u s t m a y b e to u s e a n o t h e r e x a m p l e O ff ic e r o f th e D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t fo r e x a m p l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A t o n e p o i n t w e w o u ld g e t t o th e o ff ic e in t h e m o r n i n g . F o r m e r D e p u ty P r e s id e n t M o tl a n th e c o u l d n o t g o t o - c o u l d n o t l o n g e r t o h is d i r e c t c h a n g e - h e c o u l d n o l o n g e r tr a v e l t o a n o ffic i a l tr i p a n d I t h in k i t w a s H u a n g Pr o v in c e i n - i n C h i n a … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d w e w e r e t h e n c a ll e d t o s a y c a n M i n is t e r C h a b a n e - c a n M i n is te r C h a b a n e p r e p a r e t o tr a v e l o n t h is tr i p . S o I a m j u s t u s i n g a s a n - a n o th e r e x a m p l e fr o m th e D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o i t - i t w o u l d h a p p e n l ik e t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 71 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: As a n d w h e n h e i s to o o r h e i s r e q u e s t e d t o ta k e a p a r t ic u l a r r e s p o n s i b il i t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O n e o t h e r i n s t a n c e f o r e x a m p l e t h e 5 0 t h J u b i le e C e l e b r a ti o n o f t h e C o u n tr y o f Si e r r a L e o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Th e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t w a s i n v i t e d b u t h e c o u l d n o t tr a v e l a n d h e a p p o i n t e d M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e t o tr a v e l a s h is s p e c i a l e n v o y t o g o to t h a t J u b i l e e . 10 S i m il a r k i n d o f w h a t w e c a l l i t a r o s e a n d - a n d I a m ju s t g i v i n g ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g o t … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e m e m b e r a c a ll th a t c a m e t h r o u g h t h e n a s w e l l or - or what? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o m e t i m e s C h a ir p e r s o n i t w i ll b e a n email … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Fr o m t h e o ffi c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B e c a u s e i t m a y n o t n e c e s s a r il y b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A c a ll . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e is s u e i s t h e a s s i g n m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: O r a m e s s a g e t o b e r e l a y e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Page 72 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h e r e h a s to b e a c o m m u n ic a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Th a t is th e p o i n t I a m - I a m t r y i n g t o make, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o t h e y w i ll t h e n in d i c a t e t o s a y th e P r e s i d e n t i s u n a b le t o tr a v e l o n th is tr ip . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 10 May you please request M i n is t e r C h a b a n e to t a k e t h e t r i p … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h e n n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t a t i o n i f - i f it r e q u ir e s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f I n te r n a ti o n a l r e l a ti o n s to b e i n v o l v e d a n d t h e n a ll p a p e r w o r k is d o n e a n d tr a v e l w ill t h e n ta k e p la c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Yo u w il l b e t h e n n o r m a ll y - y o u w il l n o r m a l ly b e t h e c e n tr a l p o in t f o r - fo r c o m m u n i c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: 20 It does happen to both th e PA s o m e t i m e s a n d - a n d a l o t t o t h e - I m e a n i t d o e s h a p p e n t o th e C h i e f o f S t a ff b u t a l o t t o t h e PA s t o t h e - f o r c a l ls , tr a v e l a n d a l l o f th is k in d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Would it be correct to say that you in part the r e a s o n w h y y o u r e m e m b e r t h e s e t w o c a l l s s o w e l l i s b e c a u s e o f th e s u b s e q u e n t - s u b s e q u e n t d e v e l o p m e n ts ? d e v e l o p m e n ts b e f o r e . Yo u d id r e f e r to s u b s e q u e n t I a m s a y i n g in p a r t b e c a u s e m a y b e th a t is n o t Page 73 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 w h o lly t h e r e a s o n . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n s a y s o . CHAIRPERSON: O r - o r w o u l d y o u t h i n k - d o y o u t h in k i t i s w h o l ly because of that? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o . I w o u l d n o t s a y w h o l ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t i n p a r t b e c a u s e o f th a t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: In p a r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: C h a ir p e r s o n y o u k n o w M i n is t e r C h a b a n e 10 w a s a n o th e r c h a r a c te r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a t w h e n y o u - w h e n h e d e a ls w i t h y o u o r w o r k s w i t h y o u a n d m a n y w h o w o r k e d w it h h i m I a m s u r e e v e n in t h e m o v e m e n t . I c a n t e ll y o u h o w h e w a s . H e w o u l d b e t h e k i n d o f p e r s o n w h o w o u l d k e e p q u i e t b u t a t ti m e s h e o p e n s h is m o u t h . T h e t h i n g s h e s a y s w i ll b e p r o f o u n d . Th e p o i n t I w a n t t o g e t a t i s w h e n h e s a i d w e w o u ld h a v e t o m o v e J i m - I m e a n s o r r y. W e w i ll h a v e t o m o v e T h e m b a h e ju s t s a i d a i , y o u k n o w. N o w it r i n g s in m e a n d s a y n o b u t w o u l d h e s a y a i , s ta r t s a s ta t e m e n t b y 20 s a y in g s o m e t h in g a i , w e w il l h a v e t o m o v e a n d - a n d - s o I b e g a n to - to in p a r t b e g i n t o t h i n k li k e w e ll w h a t w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d d u r i n g th is p e r i o d a n d C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t t h e n s a y i t is w h o ll y b e c a u s e t o th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B u t I c a n o n ly m a k e t h a t r e f e r e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u - a r e y o u - a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y fr o m w h a t h e Page 74 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 s a i d t o y o u , y o u g o t a n y i m p r e s s i o n a b o u t w h e t h e r h e w a s - w h a t h is t h i n k i n g w a s a b o u t t h is m o v e t h a t h a d t o b e e ff e c t e d o f M r M a s e k o ? Did you get any impression from what he said? I think you - you may h a v e ju s t s a id h e s t a r t e d b y s a y in g a i . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a d a c e r ta in u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t a i m e a n - m e a n t . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . H a v in g w o r k e d w i t h h i m I k n e w w h a t h e - y o u k n o w h e h a d - th o s e w h o w o r k e d w i t h h i m w i ll - w il l k n o w. I f h e - i f h e w a n t s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g h e s t a r ts b y s a y i n g ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e w o u l d c le a r t h is t h r o a t o r s o m e t h i n g ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Yo u - y o u k n o w w h a t is c o m in g is n o t g o i n g t o b e n ic e to y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o I k n e w - I k n e w a l o t o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : O f s o m e o f h is … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I k n e w w h e n h e i s - c o r r e c t ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : H is - t h e w a y h e t a lk e d a n d … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e w a y h e ta lk e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: A n d t h e w a y h e w o u ld a d d r e s s h i m s e l f and as I am saying and Chairperson maybe here we are speaking about a M i n is t e r w h o w a s in G o v e r n m e n t a n d I w o r k e d fo r h i m i n G o v e r n m e n t b u t a l o t o f c o m r a d e s t h a t c a n a t te s t t o i n t h e - i n t h e - i n m y m o v e m e n t- t h e A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l C o n g r e s s . Th e y w o u l d k n o w h i m . T h e y w o u ld - t h e y w o u l d k n o w h i m . Page 75 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 How he behaves. S o h e w o u ld - h e w i ll b e t h a t k i n d o f a p e r s o n . T h e r e w e r e in s t a n c e s w h e r e y o u - I k n e w w h e th e r h e is a n g r y, h a p p y o r w h a t k i n d o f - i f h e is s e r i o u s . J a . O n e - o n e e x a m p l e I c a n u s e is t h a t - o n e in s t a n c e I c a n u s e is th a t s o m e ti m e s y o u w o u l d c o m m u n ic a te t h i n g s a n d - a n d a s a C h ie f o f S t a ff y o u k n o w y o u ju s t f e e l lik e is - is t h i s th e r ig h t w a y w e c a n g o b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r a s a C h ie f o f S t a ff y o u a r e t h e a d m i n is tr a t o r i n c h i e f . Yo u a r e t h e o n e w h o is e x p e c te d to k n o w t h e l a w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o y o u n e e d t o k n o w th e P F M A . Yo u n e e d t o k n o w t h e P u b lic S e r v i c e A c t a n d t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e R e g u la t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S o if y o u r e a li s e c e r t a in t h i n g s m a y n o t n e c e s s a r i ly … CHAIRPERSON: Be in accordance with the law? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e b e s t w a y t o d e a l w i t h i t. I w il l g o b a c k a n d s a y o n t h e m a t t e r y o u r a is e d y e s t e r d a y o r o n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r t h is is h o w w e s u g g e s t e d . I felt maybe we can just and he says no. T h i s is h o w w e w i ll p r o c e e d . T h e n y o u k n o w t h a t is - t h a t is fi n a l . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n y o u k n o w h e h a s m a d e u p h i s mi n d ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I t i s f in a l. S o I a m tr y in g to ill u s t r a t e how I understood how he is. So when he said ai I - so he just said … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: S a i d s o m e t h i n g t o m e , j a … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 76 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: sense. B u t a t t h e ti m e i t d id n o t m a k e a l o t o f I could not understand why and - and - but when the events s t a r t e d u n f o ld in g a n d t h i n g s w e r e c o n fir m e d I t h e n s a i d o k a y. T h a t is w h y e v e n w h e n I a s k e d h i m w h o h e s a i d J i m m y M a n y i. I s a i d o k a y. I ju s t - a n d I d i d n o t s e e a n y t h i n g w r o n g w it h th a t b e c a u s e - a t t h a t ti m e - because Mr Manyi was a DG in another department. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y y o u c o u l d te ll w h e n h e w a s a n g r y. Yo u c o u l d t e ll w h e n h e w a s h a p p y. A r e y o u a b l e to s a y w h e th e r - a s fa r a s y o u 10 c o u l d y o u k n e w h i m - h e w a s h a p p y a b o u t m o v i n g M r M a s e k o fr o m G C I S t o D P S A o r i s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u a r e n o t - y o u w e r e n o t a b l e t o … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t e ll ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I c o u l d n o t d e d u c e i t a t t h e ti m e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t ? M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I c o u ld n o t , j a . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. N o th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g Ms Wentzel? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o t h i n g f u r t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e - t h e o n ly t h i n g I j u s t - I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to say anything. I a m - I a m c o n c e r n e d t h a t y o u i n d i c a t e d a t th e Page 77 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 b e g in n i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e li n e s t h a t y o u m a y h a v e p r e fe r r e d n o t t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u f e e l c o m f o r ta b le t o t e l l m e w h a t m a y h a v e m a d e y o u f e e l li k e th a t o r i s th a t s o m e th in g y o u a r e n o t … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: N o I c a n s a y s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p le a s e . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: I c a n s a y s o . C h a ir p e r s o n th e - l e t m e 10 p u t i t t h is w a y t h a t I h a v e u t m o s t r e s p e c t f o r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . M i n is t e r C h a b a n e was a M in is t e r under P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s a d m i n is tr a t i o n . H e s e r v e d a t t h e b e h e s t o f fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a . Whatever may have happened may have happened between t h e t w o - b e t w e e n a n e m p l o y e r a n d e m p lo y e e o r s u p e r v is o r a n d s u p e r v i s e e b u t I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t i s m o s t i m p o r ta n t f o r m e n o w w e a r e s i t ti n g h e r e o r a t - o r m y r e s o l v e n o t to c o m e w a s t h e f a c t t h a t I h a d s p e n t a v e r y g o o d f iv e y e a r s w i t h M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a n d n o w t h a t h e is - in f a c t h is p a s s i n g a w a y s t r u c k a v e r y h a r d c o r e , p a i n e m o ti o n a ll y f o r m o n t h s a n d - a n d i t w a s t h e o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I 20 t h e n in i ti a te d t o s a y c a n I m o v e o u t o f a p o li t ic a l o ffi c e b e c a u s e I h a d served under him. I h a d s e r v e d u n d e r M i n is t e r M t h e th w a , M i n is t e r R a m a t l h o d i a n d - a n d th e n a t o n e p o i n t I c o u ld h a v e s e r v e d a n o th e r M i n is t e r b u t I t h e n c h o s e to m o v e o u t . S o i t - i t h a s b e e n v e r y p a in f u l . I a m a ls o mindful of Ms Chabane and the kids where - where they are. I did not Page 78 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 w a n t to c o m e h e r e a n d m y s e lf o p e n in g a n e m o ti o n a l w o u n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: B u t I - I r e s p e c t y o u C h a ir p e r s o n t h e w o r k y o u d o a n d t h e J u d ic i a r y i n i ts e n t ir e ty a n d w h e n t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a i d t o m e i f th e C h a ir a s k s y o u t o c o m e w i ll y o u d o s o . I s a i d I w i ll a n d th a t is w h y I a m h e r e b u t I - I p e r s o n a lly f e l t i t w o u l d - I w o u ld le a v e it t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o f i n d t h e tr u th i n - i n o th e r w a y s I a m s u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h e m e c h a n is m s a r e t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o t h a n k - th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I - I was not a w a r e t h a t t h e - y o u - y o u w e r e f e e li n g u n e a s y a b o u t i t . I - I a m n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s a y i n g i f y o u w e r e f e e l in g u n e a s y t h e d e c is i o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n d i ff e r e n t b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g I w a s n o t a w a r e b u t I t h a n k y o u t h a t y o u - y o u c a m e . T h a n k y o u fo r y o u r - fo r y o u r e v i d e n c e . I t h i n k t h e t h e i m p r e s s io n I g e t is t h a t b e c a u s e o f h o w c lo s e y o u w e r e … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To M i n is t e r C h a b a n e y o u w o u ld h a v e p r e f e r r e d n o t t o … 20 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t to t a lk a b o u t th i n g s t h a t r e l a t e t o … M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To h i m . M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So - so I appreciate that … Page 79 of 80 26 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 149 M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: But thank you very much and you are excused. M R A B E D N I G O H L U N G WA N I: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: That - that is the last witness you have for the day? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a t w a s t h e l a s t w i tn e s s f o r t h e d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. W e a r e u n fo r t u n a t e l y g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s fo r t h e d a y a n d t h e n w e w il l c o n t in u e t o m o r r o w. 10 w i ll s ta r t I t h in k a t h a l f p a s t n i n e . tomorrow? We Ar e w e s t a r ti n g a t h a l f p a s t n i n e N o w e a r e s t a r t in g a t 1 0 I t h i n k . W e a r e s t a r t in g a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k t o m o r r o w. W e w i ll b e h e a r i n g fu r t h e r e v i d e n c e f r o m M r D u k w a n a a n d I t h in k th e r e w il l b e t w o w i t n e s s e s i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . S o w e w ill c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w. W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 7 A U G U S T 2 0 1 9 Page 80 of 80