COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG

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26 NOVEMBER 2018

DAY 30
FINAL

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
PROCEEDINGS HELD ON 26 NOVEMBER 2018
CHAIRPERSON: Good

morning

Mr

Pretorius,

good

morning

everybody.

ADV PAUL PRETORIUS SC: Good morning DCJ. The programme for today Chair
will be the witness from Treasury Ms Macanda the last of the three Treasury
witnesses for present purposes at least. She will be led by Advocate Mokoena and
then Advocate Maleka will question Mr Manyi thereafter.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, okay.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Morning DCJ.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Mr Mokoena. Before you proceed, I just want to
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announce that tomorrow morning when we commence I will address some of the
issues that have arisen recently relating to the Commission and some of the
witnesses appearing before the Commission. Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ms Macanda, unlike Mr Maleka and Mr Fuzile we did
consult prior to you having to adduce your evidence today.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes we did.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.

Mr Chair we are leading the evidence of

Ms Macanda, we will avoid any repetition of ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I missed that. Whatever you said and the witness
responded I did not hear.
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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: At all Mr Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: You did not hear at all?
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay I did not hear at all. I heard that you were saying
something and that the witness said something, but I did not hear what you were
saying.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: We were just confirming that we did consult with one
another.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Unlike Mr – unlike ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Do you not want to ask that after she has been sworn in?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No Mr Chair it was just an introductory remark that I
have made, conversed to the one ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: You do not want her to say that under oath?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: She will in time Mr Chair. Mr Chair the evidence of
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Ms Macanda when we lead it, we will avoid any repetitions of the evidence that has
been led already by the two witnesses from Treasury. We will use her evidence to
simply corroborate and highlight some of the important aspects of the testimony that
has already been adduced by the witnesses that were led by Mr Maleka.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you are going to try and avoid getting her to repeat
that evidence?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. You believe you have been of corroboration?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: We believe – but we will put what we believe it is
necessary to corroborate and to highlight those aspects that might not have been

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much more clearer.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And which relates to her. But we will avoid, you
know to repeat the same evidence that is already before you Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ms Macanda the Commission is currently addressing

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issues relevant to term of reference 1.8, are you aware?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I am aware.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on, hang on Mr Mokoena. No the witness must be sworn in.
Registrar swear the witness in please before we can proceed or affirmation whatever
the witness prefers.
REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Phumza Macanda.
REGISTRAR: Do you have any objection with taking the prescribed oath?
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MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No I do not.
REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath to be binding on your conscience?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I do.
REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth? If so, please raise your right hand and say, so
help me God?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So help me God.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You may continue Mr Mokoena.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Thank you Mr Chair and in order to assist the
Commission to properly ventilate those issues, you did provide a written statement?

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MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I did.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. May I refer you to Exhibit P, P for Phillip.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Mokoena. Have you covered who she works, where
she comes from?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No it arises from the statement itself Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay thank you.

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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now that ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Is that P?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: It is P, P for Phillip.
CHAIRPERSON: And what page in P?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: That document commences from page 22
Ms Macanda and it goes up until page 39. Are you there?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I am.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Is that your statement?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes it is.
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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: If you turn to page 39, there is a signature, is that
your signature?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes that is my signature.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Do you confirm the contents of your statement under
oath?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I confirm the contents of the statement.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. Now in paragraph 2 page 23 of your witness
statement you neatly captures the term of reference which the Commission it is
currently investigating. You set out saying in the following terms, you say that:
"I was subsequently advised on the 8 th November 2018 that my

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statement should only cover the issues relating to paragraph 1.8 of
the Commission's terms of reference."
Paragraph 1.8 concerns and you quote it:
"Whether any Advisors in the Ministry of Finance were appointed
without proper procedures, in particular and as alleged in the
complaint to the Public Protector, whether two senior Advisors who

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were appointed by Minister Des van Rooyen to the National Treasury
who were so appointed without proper procedures."
You proceed:
"That I therefore confine this statement to the knowledge that I have
in relation to the two Advisors and my interaction with them."
That is the reason Ms Macanda you are here today.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes it is.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.

Could you please share with us your

qualifications?
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MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I am a journalist by profession, I graduated from Rhodes
University in 1996.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Macanda please raise your voice a bit and try and look
towards me not him.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Okay. I am a journalist by profession Chair. I graduated
from Rhodes University in 1996 majoring in Journalism and Politics. I subsequently
in 2006 did a certificate in Basic Economics from Wits University.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. Where are you employed currently?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I am currently employed by ABSA Group Limited.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.

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CHAIRPERSON: Did you say ABSA Group?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: ABSA Group Limited yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: When did you leave Treasury – National Treasury?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I left the National Treasury at the end of August 2016.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Then was the first time when you joined

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
National Treasury?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I joined Treasury in March 2012.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: In March 2012, which position did you occupy?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: When I joined Treasury in March 2012, I was the Director
of Media Relations and Communications.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: To whom did you report at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I reported to Mr Jabulani Sikhakhane.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: In that capacity what were your responsibilities?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: My job as the Director of Media Relations and
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Communications at Treasury was to assist in protecting, maintaining and enhancing
the reputation of the National Treasury. It was to help build understanding and
support for National Treasury Policies. My job included disseminating information
about Treasury activities and to ensure that in as far as the work of the Treasury, the
Treasury was the primary source of information. It was also to make sure that the
Treasury messages and narrative were always consistent, were always clear, the
kind of the messages that build credibility of the institution.
In that capacity, therefore, I worked with journalists. I was the person who
would receive inquiries from journalists, work with the Treasury Officials to craft
responses to those questions. I was the person who was responsible for working

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with journalists, especially around key calendar events of the Treasury, in particular
the budget, organising the lock-up that you would have and making sure that we get
journalists to come to the lock-up and get the documents and understand what we
are doing in that regard.
My job also included advising Treasury Officials and the Minister of Finance
on which communication, platforms and media platforms to use to disseminate

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information and to ensure that such messages were always in alignment with
broader Government messages.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now around March 2015, which position did you
occupy within Treasury?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: In March 2015 Mr Jabulani Sikhakhane to whom I
reported left the employ of the Treasury. I was then appointed in his position on an
acting capacity and therefore I assumed his position as Chief Director of
Communications in an acting capacity.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. Until when did you occupy that position?
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MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I was in an acting capacity until I was appointed
permanently in October 2015.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now in that new role what were your
responsibilities?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Generally my responsibilities were the same, save in the
new position, I was part of the Executive Committee of the National Treasury, I was
part of senior management. I was also responsible for the administration of the
Communications Unit and everyone who worked in the Communications Unit
reported to me. I also was the spokesperson for that department and the Minister of
Finance.

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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. Now from page 25 paragraph 6 of your witness
statement to paragraph 11, you are canvassing a meeting with the General Director
at the time Mr Lugisa Fuzile. You preface that meeting with the dismissal of Mr Nene
on the 9th of December 2015. Could you please in your own words simply take us
through those events?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I learned about the firing of Minister Nene late on

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Wednesday the 9 th of December. I was on sick leave and I learned about his firing
quite late on that day. The next morning when I went into the office, I sought out the
Director General of the National Treasury Mr Lugisa Fuzile. The reason I sought him
out was because the market reaction to the axing of Minister Nene was quite
negative. The Stock Exchange was down quite significantly. The Rand currency
had depreciated in a similar manner and my phone was ringing constantly, because
journalists wanted to know whether the National Treasury was going to release a
statement about the Minister of – about the firing of Minister Nene and what would
we say, would we say anything about what it meant.
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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.

Before you proceed any further.

In your

statement you captures that on paragraph 6. You say that the markets were going
crazy and the Rand had tumbled. The Stock Exchange was in a mess. Now before
you proceed, I just want to ask to unpack that statement in relation to the events
known to you. What exactly were the indicators that you know you are attributing to
the markets going crazy?

Are you able to share with the Chairperson those

specifics?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I think in that regard Chair, I would like to refer to the
statement of Minister Gordhan who testified previously, where he outlines the
negative market reaction.
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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Chair the witness is referring to Exhibit N1 A with
particular reference to page 30 and paragraph 79.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: In his submission Minister Gordhan says that the
devastating impact of this unexpected announcement on the South African economy

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is expected to be approximately R500 billion. He refers to market analysts who
described that over the two days the market value of the country's 17 biggest
financial and property shares fell by R290 billion. The figure excludes the remainder
of the equities market that was also hard hit by the decision. South African Bonds
lost 12% of their capital value. The Rand depreciated sharply from R13.40 to
R15.40 overnight.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: What Mr Gordhan is conveying in that statement,
does it accord with your recollection at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes, yes it does.
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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. Mr Gordhan also, for completeness, in order to
link your evidence with him in relation to the Rand having taken a knock. He states,
if you may turn to Exhibit N2. Mr Chair you do not have to do any gymnastics
exercise, we will simply read those relevant passages to the record. It is Exhibit N2,
if you go to page 140, are you there?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Paragraph number, I am afraid not, I do not think I will be
able ...(intervenes).
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Exhibit N2 it is a separate file of Mr Gordhan. If you
go to page 140 you will see the status of the Rand/Dollar exchange as at
December 2015.

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You do not have to read it on the record, it was read by

Mr Gordhan. When you look at those figures from Wednesday the 9th up until Friday
the 11 th of December 2015, would that also accord to your experience at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I would say it is correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now you may proceed to discuss in detail the
meeting which you were dealing with between yourself and the Director General.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I went into the Director General's office to consult with

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him about the statement that we both agreed would need to be released and we both
understood that such a statement would need the approval of the Minister who was
announced the previous night. The Director General then phoned the Minister in my
presence. He put the Minister on speaker phone and explained to the Minister that I
was also on the line and explained to the Minister why I was on the line.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: That was Minister van Rooyen?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: That was Minister van Rooyen.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: The Director General proceeded to congratulate the
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Minister and I will not repeat some of the things that he said, as he has testified to
them. But part of the conversation that I was particularly interested in was the one
that concerned what statement we would release to the public. The Director General
then talked to the Minister about the negative market reaction and explained to the
Minister that there was need for the National Treasury to respond. He offered the
services of National Treasury Officials to draft such a statement.
I should explain that the process of drafting a statement is a consultative
one and one you – it is impossible to do it within an hour.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Can you explain what does it entail to draft such a
statement?

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MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes in this case it would entail – and this is what the
Director General was suggesting to the Minister. He was suggesting that he was
offering the services of the Senior Treasury Officials to draft such a statement which
the Minister would then approve and the plan was that shortly after his swearing in,
that statement would be released to the public.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: What was the Minister's reaction during the

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telephone?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: The Minister told the DG that there was a statement that
was already drafted and that the National Treasury did not need to worry about such
a statement. He said he would provide the statement to the DG later.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now according to you, was that telephone call, you
know, helpful at all in relation to what was happening in the markets at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No it was not. It was not for the reason that I have given
earlier that preparing a statement is a consultative process and we wanted such a
statement to be released shortly after his swearing in ceremony. But also it was not
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helpful because we did not know what was in the statement that the Minister had told
us had been prepared.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. What were you hoping to achieve with the DG
when you called the Minister? What were your expectations?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Our expectations was that the Minister would work with
us, the Minister would give us his approval to start drafting a statement, but more
importantly that the Minister would give us guidance on what he thinks should be
said publically about the developments of the previous night.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now during that period how was the staff moral?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: We were in shock.

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There was almost a sense of

mourning within Treasury that morning. A lot of us did not know what to make sense
of the developments and we really were in shock, we were just standing around
talking to each other and we were in shock.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Did the DG, you know, address the staff around the
issues that were happening at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: We discussed the DG addressing staff and the concern

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was that it was important for that to happen in the presence of the Minister. But in
the phone call, one of the things that we discussed by the DG and the Minister was
the Minister coming to the office and the Minister had indicated that he would not be
able to come to the office and that he would meet us at the Union Buildings at the
swearing ceremony.
So given the shock that the staff was in and we discussed with the DG the
idea of going to address staff and we decided that it was a good idea for the DG to
address staff. He then went downstairs and the room was packed to the rafters,
everyone wanted to hear what he said. He made few comments to the staff the
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essence of which was that, as National Treasury Officials, our main responsibility is
to serve the nation. No matter what the developments of the day were, we should be
less concerned about that and more concerned about going back to our desks and
doing our job. He has already testified here about the fact that there was a lot of
work that needed to be done on the budget. He encouraged the staff to go back to
their desks and focus on that.
One of the things that he said was that we needed to remember that we
serve the administration of the day, whoever that is and we are the link between the
administration and the stability of the Department was the most important thing.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Chair that is captured from page 27 paragraph 11

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of the witness statement. Now you go on from page 27 paragraph 12 to deal with
the meeting with Minister van Rooyen and Mr Mohammed Bobat at the Union
Building, but you do so first by dealing with how you met with Mr Bobat. Can you
please take us through those events?
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, before she proceeds.
Ms Macanda

to

the

telephone

conversation

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that

Can I take you back
the

DG

had

with

26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
Minister van Rooyen on the morning of the 10 th where he put the Minister on speaker
phone and introduced you, you remember that?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I do Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. As I understand it, your evidence is that when Mr Fuzile
suggested to Minister van Rooyen that the Treasury staff could prepare a statement
– a media statement for the Minister's approval, you say the Minister said that there
was already a statement. Is that right?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: He said there was already a statement that had been
prepared and we did not need to worry about that.
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CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

What else transpired in that conversation, if you can

remember, what else transpired in that conversation if you can remember?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I think the DG already referred to his conversation with
the Minister in as far as the invitation to come to the office and perhaps meet with
Minister Nene who had come to the office that morning and to clear his office. That
was something else that came up in that conversation.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What was the Minister's attitude to that?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I did not find the Minister's attitude to be that of listening
and being welcoming to the request and the invitation that the DG was making.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is there anything else of importance that the Minister said to
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Mr Fuzile that you can remember that you can share with us?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Not that I recall specifically, no not that I recall.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you form any view about whether the Minister might have
certain preconceived ideas about National Treasury based on the conversation?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I certainly did. As I said, the Minister said to the DG in a
manner that I found to be almost dismissive of the DG's suggestions. I certainly – I

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came out of the conversation thinking this is going to be an interesting and perhaps
half working relationship for all of us.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I do not see in your statement something that Mr Fuzile said.
One of the things that Mr Fuzile said the Minister said during that conversation, was
that the Minister said to him something along the lines that the National Treasury, or
you people, or the National Treasury must – I think, must stop this tendency of
issuing statements. I do not see anything like that in your statement. Is that
because you did not hear it?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: It is because I do not recall it.
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CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Thank you Mr Chair. You were at the point where
you were going to tell the Chair about your first interaction with Mr Bobat at the
Union Building. You may proceed to do so.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So when I got to the Union Buildings ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry again, and I may have missed this because
Mr Mokoena you are now at or beyond paragraph 27.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Paragraph 12 Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Paragraph 12.

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CHAIRPERSON: Oh that is fine, then you may continue, I think I may be aHead
ofyou. Thank you.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: When I got to the Union Buildings I asked the people
from the Presidency that were waiting for us, I introduced myself and told them
that I was here for Minister van Rooyen.

I had previously been invited the

previous night to come to the Union Buildings for the swearing in ceremony, and I

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asked them where I should go. They pointed me to a waiting room and told me
that Minister van Rooyen would be coming and would be waiting there, and that is
the room in which I would meet with him. While I was standing there waiting for
Minister van Rooyen, I noticed the people from the Presidency standing with this
tall gentleman of Indian origin, and they pointed towards me.

They pointed

towards me. The gentleman then walked towards me and he informed me that he
was the Advisor to the new Minister. I did not think anything about that and he
introduced himself and he told me that his name was Mohamed Bobat.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: During your telephone call that you related to the
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Chairperson earlier on, did Minister van Rooyen indicate to you and the DG that
he has already appointed Advisors or that he wanted the DG to assist him in
appointing any Advisors?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No I do not – the Minister did not say anything about
having appointed Advisors already. Conversation about Advisors actually did not
take place in that conversation with the DG.
MR MOKOENA:

Were you aware of any contracts that could have been

concluded by the DG and any Advisors on behalf of the Minister?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I would not say I was specifically aware at this time but
I was surprised that the Minister, who was just announced, had already appointed
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Advisors.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Alright there is Mr Bobat coming to you now,
introducing himself and what happens thereafter?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So he came, he introduced himself and he said to me
– he asked me what is your job, and I explained to him what my job was, and he
says are you the one who releases statements for National Treasury, and I

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
responded in the affirmative. He then said to me from now on no statement goes
out without my approval. Every statement must be approved by me and the
Minister. I was very puzzled and taken aback by this for two reasons; firstly he
was a little aggressive with me. It was not that there were no pleasantries that
were exchanged but his manner was quite aggressive and almost hostile. It felt to
me that it was important for him to assert his authority quite quickly with him, and
also I was puzzled before, it just is part of practice and policy that every statement
goes out be approved by the Minister and the DG. So that was not something that
needed to be pointed out with me by someone who understands how the system
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works. I then said to him yes, yes, you know every statement that goes out is
approved by the Minister, that is how we do things.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Did he tell you as to what his role was going to be
as an Advisor now that he was giving you instructions no longer to issue any
statements?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: He did not explain to me what his role was, that
discussion did not come up, but he just told me that he was an Advisor, and I
must say as I understood the role of Advisor, I did not understand it to include
being part of approving statements, to the extent that they are Advisors to the
Minister, they are privy to discussions they were in but certainly not in approving

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statements.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now during this interaction between yourself and
Mr Bobat where was the DG?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: At this point the DG had not arrived. We had travelled
separately to the Union Buildings, but at some point he did arrive. So the DG was
not witness to this exchange in my – ja in my recollection.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes, and then you met with – you had your first
interaction with the Minister van Rooyen, can you tell the Chairperson about that
interaction or your meeting with him?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I then stepped into the room that we were told to wait
in and I was waiting there, and at some point the Minister did come. He arrived,
and he arrived with his family. He left his family in the other room and then came
to join us in the room, and in the room was myself, the DG, Mr Bobat and of
course the Minister. And once the Minister arrived the DG then once again spoke
to the Minister, and he spoke to the Minister about events that had transpired at
10

the Treasury that morning. He explained to Minister that he addressed staff. He
explained to Minister, I summarised for the Minister what it is that he said, and
then he once again talked to the Minister about the need for us to be releasing a
statement as the Treasury, and explained that that was the reason I was there to
assist with that specific task. And it was the second time that he was doing it
because I was bothering him. Even though I had heard the earlier conversation, I
was worried as I say, because the journalists were calling me. So I understood
the importance of this. So he then explained to the Minister once again about us
talking and agreeing about releasing a statement.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now what was the Minister's reaction to that

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request?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: The Minister took out a piece of paper and he gave it
to the DG. The DG read the piece of paper, he gave it to me, I read the piece of
paper and in essence what the piece of paper was an introduction of the Minister,
and generally it just – it was just an introduction to the Minister, and one of the
key messages that were in that statement was that he would open up access to

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
the Treasury. After reading the statement I felt that the statement lacked in the
key messages that we needed to have in a statement that the DG had already
explained to the Minister. Key messages for instance that would talk about policy
trajectory, policy stability and the importance of the Treasury sticking to the fiscal
targets and sticking to all of those policy that have been announced. This was the
main thing that people were asking, what does this appointment mean for policy.
Does it mean that – does it signal a change in policy? I then said to the Minister,
at that point the DG was – it almost – it felt to me that he was in that meeting but
he was not there, because the interaction with the Minister did not yield fruit but
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also it was very difficult. So I explained to the Minister that the statement was a
good start. I then offered to enhance it with the messaging that we use in the
Treasury.

I brought with me some of the documents that were previously

published to assist in that regard. The Minister was non committal, he would not
give his approval for me to enhance the statement with the kind of messages that
we had discussed with him.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now what I fail to understand is the following,
during that meeting that you are now relating to the Chairperson, was the Minister
aware of the adverse ramifications which resulted flowing from him appointment
and the removal of Mr Nene. I mean that removal of Mr Nene, the ramification to
20

the economy itself, was he able to appreciate those factors at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I cannot speak to his state of mind but I can say that
that was explained to him twice by the DG, first in the telephone conversation that
took place that morning and secondly while we were sitting there.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Was he aware of the fact that the Rand was taking
a knock at the time and there was a need for him to release a statement that

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would calm the market or at least you know, give some assurance of his plans to
deal with those severe economic factors.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: That is exactly what the DG was explaining to him. He
was explaining about the negative market reaction on the Stock Exchange and in
the currency market and in the bond market. He was explaining to him about the
fact that we needed to assure the market. We needed to assure the market that
the appointment was not a signal for policy change, and he was explaining to the
Minister all of these things while he was explaining why we needed to release a
statement.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And you say that despite that – all that, the
statement that he took out from his pocket did not even begin to address those
issues?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No it did not.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now on page 30, from paragraph 22 to 24 of your
statement you canvass what you refer to as the bizarre interaction between Mr
Bobat and Minister van Rooyen. Could you please share with us those events?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So at some point during the meeting once we had
moved from discussing the statement and not getting the approval that we were
hoping for from the Minister, Mr Bobat said to the Minister I called you, why did

20

you not return my call, and his tone was the same authoritative one that he had
used with me. It lacked the hostility that he had shown towards me earlier but it
certainly was contemptuous, I thought it was contemptuous. The Minister then
said oh, I have been getting a lot of phone calls from people congratulating me,
and the thing is I do not have your number so I could not return your call.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: So the Minister did not have the number of his

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
own Advisor?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: That is what the Minister said, I do not have your
number so I could not return your call.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes, and then what happened?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I was flabbergasted to say the least, I quite was
shocked because I was thinking to myself firstly I was shocked by this manner
towards the Minister, as I say he was quite contemptuous and he was quite
dismissive, but also one thing that I thought about was if he does not have the
number then do these people know each other, and if they do not know each other
10

how does he become the Minister's Advisor.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now may I link that part of your evidence, if you
may refer to page 58, and that is the witness statement of Mr Fuzile. If you go to
paragraph 18 simply to see that this is exactly what you also witnessed, he relate
that bizarre situation in different terms when he was told as to the new Minister
that he was going to get. He says that:
"I asked him to elaborate what he meant. He said I should watch it,
my new Minister, it is likely to come with Advisors he does not
know."
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: So Ms Macanda you also gained that impression

20

at the time when you saw this interaction, that the Minister might not be knowing
his own Advisor Mr Bobat.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I certainly was left with the impression that they did not
know each other and if they did, they did not know each other very well.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes, now you also did attend the swearing in
ceremony.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I did.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Can you tell us about what transpired there?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So the ceremony took place ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Mokoena, I may have missed this. You did get
her to confirm the last two sentences of paragraph 24 right?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: They are important, you did?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes, she testified on those things Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay.
10

MR MOKOENA: But for emphasis she can still read paragraph 24 into the record,
on page 30.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but if she did it is fine, I may have missed it but I leave it
to you, if you want her to emphasise. I just ...(intervenes).
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I do not want to lose it Chair, rather we err on the
side of caution. I know that she have done it but turn to page 30.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Okay.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 30, and if you may read paragraph 24 into the
records.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: “What I was thinking was these people do not

20

know each other. If they do not know each other how does Mr
Bobat becomes Minister's Advisor. I then witnessed Mr Bobat and
the Minister exchanging phone numbers in our presence. I was left
with the impression that they did not know each other.”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And that is what we have canvassed earlier on.
CHAIRPERSON: And you are quite clear that you witnessed them exchanging

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their numbers?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Thank you Chair. Yes, you were just about to
relate the swearing in ceremony events?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So ...(intervenes).
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Your mic.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So at some point the swearing in ceremony started.
The Minister went into a different entrance, I went into the entrance and sat with
10

the journalists and the journalists were eager to interview the Minister. They had
been asking me whether the Minister would grant interviews after his swearing in
ceremony. I had also explained this to the Minister, that I was getting a lot of
requests for interviews, and he explained to me that he would not be doing
interviews at ...(intervenes).
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now up until that point the Minister has not as yet
been interviewed by journalists?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No, no.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Proceed.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: The swearing in ceremony went ahead, and after it

20

was – the Minister, I should point out the Minister took out the piece of paper that
he had given to myself and the DG to read. He took out the piece of paper. He
read from the piece of paper after he was sworn in and after the swearing in
ceremony I followed the Minister and the President as they were leaving in a
different entrance. He gave me the piece of paper because I needed to take it
back to the office and type it up so that we can release the statement.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And what happened to the piece of paper?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I am sorry?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: What happened to that piece of paper?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I do not know. Once I typed the statement I probably
disposed of it but I typed up the statement because I did not have an electronic
copy so I needed the hard copy.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: May I refer you to page 40, Mr Chair, it is
Annexure PM1. You can also relate it to PM2, can you identify the document on
page 40, PM1.
10

MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And the purpose of that document.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So in page 41 it is a copy of the statement that I typed
up, that I then consulted with Mr Bobat as had been previously directed to, for the
approval of the statement. In page 40 it is an e-mail I sent to Mr Bobat with the
attachment of the statement, asking him to approve.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And the statement on page 41 is the statement
which was issued by the Minister at the time when you say that the markets were
crazy and that the Rand was tumbling.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes it is.

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And as you have said that having read the
statement it does not even begin to address those fundamental economic
concerns at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No, the statement did not address the concerns.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now this statement, I take it that at some point it
was published in the website?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes the statement was published on the website once
approved by Mr Bobat.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: How was it – how was the reaction locally and
internationally about that statement?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: The statement was benign in as far addressing some
of the concerns that had already been raised and it – the reaction to it was really –
in fact some people were quite angry, and I recall receiving a phone call from one
London based analyst, his name is Peter Attard Montalto, at the time he worked
for Nomura International, and Peter said to me what the hell kind of statement is
10

this, what are you guys saying here. And I explained to Mr Montalto that my job
was to communicate on behalf of the Minister of Finance and this statement was
the communication from the Minister of Finance. He really expressed frustration
and he said you guys are not saying anything there. And you know he then hung
up on me.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now did you get any other reactions from a
journalist after this statement was released?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I got a lot of reaction from journalists in terms of
continuing to ask for interviews with the Minister, one of whom was CNN, Eleni
Jeokos, she sent me e-mail and she was phoning me constantly because she was

20

saying you know we need to talk to the Minister, we need to talk to the Minister.
But certainly not the kind of reaction where people were calmer after we released
the statement because it addressed some of the concerns.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes. In your statement you deal with Mr Bobat
and his – and the manner in which he asserted his power. You do so by referring
to an incident about a fake Twitter account. Can you please share with us as to

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what transpired between yourself and Mr Bobat in that regard?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So by the time that the Minister was sworn in there
was already a fake Twitter account that was created in his name. It was not our
first experience with fake Twitter accounts. We had previously had such with
Minister Nene, with the Deputy Minister of Finance Mr Mcebisi Jonas and these
fake Twitter accounts generally were used by people that wanted to swindle
people out of their money. So what we would normally do as the Treasury, we
would release an Advisory to the public, saying this is a fake Twitter account,
please be cautious and make sure that you are not taken in by the scams. So late
10

on the evening of the 10 th I got a phone call from Mr Bobat and he was demanding
that I deal with the Twitter account of the Minister, and he said to me I want you to
close the account and I want you to write a report for me in the morning. I want a
report from you in the morning.

Once again I found his tone to be very

aggressive, and I explained to Mr Bobat that to be able to close an account one
would need to have the administrative login details of the account, which we did
not have because we did not create the account. And I explained to him that we
would not be able to close the account. The least that we can do is to alert the
public to the fact that the account was fake. And you know he was abusive, I felt,
and intimidating. And I wrote him an e-mail that evening and I explained to him
20

what I would do in the morning and I explained to him also that I was on sick leave
and I would not be coming into the office.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: May I refer you to page 42.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: 42?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 42, paragraph – Annexure PM3.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Is that the e-mail that you said you ultimately
wrote to Mr Bobat?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes, this is the e-mail I wrote to Mr Bobat.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And the contents, it is what you have already
related to the Chairperson, as to what transpired.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes, yes, they are.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now can you deal with the meeting of the 11 th of
December 2015, and before you do that may I premise those – your evidence by
asking a few questions in order to place it into its proper context? That meeting,
10

you said it took place on the 11 th of December 2015 am I correct?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes, the morning after. The morning after. It was a
Friday.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And who arranged that meeting?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I received a call that morning from Mr Marlon Geswint,
who was the Chief of Staff of Minister Nene. I was not planning to come to the
office. So I imagine Marlon arranged the meeting.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And do you know who else attended the meeting,
from your recollection?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So

20

my

recollection,

Momo

was

there,

Mr Ismail Momoniat, who is the Head of Tax and Tax Policy at the National
Treasury. I do recall Ms Kay Brown, who was in the meeting. She was acting on
behalf of Mr Michael Sachs, who was the Head of the Budget Office. Mr Sachs
was already on leave. I do recall Mr Monale Ratsoma being in the meeting and
there was list that was provided with people that were in the meeting. But in my
recollection I do not recall everyone there.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: But these were the people that were in the meeting.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And the Deputy Minister at the time, Mr Jonas,
was he – did he attend the meeting?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No, that was strange; he was not in the meeting.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: You have recorded this meeting as one of the
important meetings that you had to attend and that is the reason you even had to
cut short your sick leave to attend that meeting. Do you know why did the Deputy
Minister not attend the meeting?
10

MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So I debated with myself about going to the office to
attend the meeting but I felt that I could not be absent in a meeting, the very first
meeting that the Minister of Finance has with senior Treasury Officials. So out of
respect for the Minister I went to the office. I asked my brother to drive me to the
office and I went to the office, and the reason why I felt the meeting as important
was because I thought that the Minister was going to talk to us about what was
important in his agenda. I thought he was going to talk to us about some of the
budget processes, things that still needed to be concluded so we would be able to
table the budget in February. I thought the Minister was going to talk to us about
what his agenda was going to focus on in the short term, things that we need to

20

know. So I went to the meeting with a pen and paper to take notes so that I get to
understand what was important to the Minister.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And you say that – but Mr Jonas was not in that
meeting?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No, the Minister came in and the Deputy Minister was
not there, and I found that to be very strange. In fact I did not know whether the

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Deputy Minister was in the office or not. I had not seen him that morning before I
went into the meeting.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Alright, and then what happened during the
meeting?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So the meeting started, started a little bit late and the
Minister came in with two gentlemen, one of whom I recognised, I had previously
been introduced to him the previous day, Mr Bobat. He came into the meeting
with Mr Bobat and another gentleman I did not recognise, and he then introduced
the two gentlemen, and he introduced Mr Ian Whitley as his Chief of Staff and
10

Mr Mohamed Bobat as his Advisor. The Minister said that – he informed the
meeting that whatever needed to come to his office, had to go through his Advisor
and his Chief of Staff.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: But what did you understand him to mean when
he said that, that everything that had to happen must go through the Chief of
Staff?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: The Minister did say that everything that we did had to
be done with the approval of the two gentlemen. So what I understood him to
mean was the introduction was important because these were the people that we
would need to work with. These were the people that almost were in charge so

20

we needed to know who they were.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Did he say anything about the role of the DG, as
to what is going to happen with the role of the DG if now the two gentlemen are
going to be in charge?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Not at that point, no.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Yes, then what happened in the meeting?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So after the Minster introduced the two gentlemen he
then, you know, sat back and was looking at Mr Bobat as if to hand over the meeting
to Mr Bobat at which point the DG said "okay now wait a minute, hold on" and then
the DG said "I think it is important that I introduce the people that I am with." The
manner of the DG was quite angry I thought and this was surprising to me because
he is a very even tempered man. I got to know him as a very sober and even
tempered person, but in that meeting he was quite angry. In fact he was pointing his
fingers at, towards the Minister and his Advisor.
He then went around the room introducing each and every person that was in
10

the meeting and explaining what their role in the Treasury was and then he said, he
pointed his finger and said "here we do everything by the book. If I say to you no it
is not going to be done it is not because I do not like your face it is because it is not
right by regulations. If it is not according to the book, (and the book that he was
referring to was the Minister's handbook), he said if it not according to the book it is
not going to be done." I found that exchange to be puzzling as I say because I did
not think there was something that had happened in this meeting that explained his
angry reaction. So I surmised that it was almost as if I was witnessing act two of a
play without having seen act one because he was angry.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now do you recall if I take you back to the events of

20

that meeting, if I take you back to the events of that meeting do you recall how the
Minister introduced both Mr Bobat and Mr Whitley in terms of their titles or their
portfolios that they are going to be holding at Treasury from that time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I do not have a specific recollection of this and I am
aware that the other witnesses have testified to the Minister confusing the names. I
have wracked my brain trying to recall that memory. I do not have a recollection of

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that.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry I did not get that. What is it that you do not recall?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I am saying that, I am sorry, I am saying that I am aware
that other witnesses have testified that during the introduction the Minister confused
the names of the Advisors.

That is not something specifically that I have a

recollection of.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And in that meeting the Minister did not proceed to
deal with the economic situation or to give or outline his plan as to how was he going
10

to address the negative impact on the Rand and other important issues regarding the
economy?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: No not at all. Once he had done with his introductions he
was done and he was signalling, handing over the Minister to Mr Bobat and it almost
seems that that was the conclusion of the meeting at which point the Minister said
"no, no just hold on."
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And had a pen in the book, the book I take it that it
was still empty, nothing to record?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I had nothing to record. I had no notes to take because
nothing of substance was discussed in the meeting.

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: You told the Chair earlier on that Mr Bobat was this
person that was quite aggressive going around issuing instructions and in your
statement you relayed an incident whereby he even had to stop a recruitment
process, do you recall?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes. So after this meeting ended, the one that we had
with the Minister Mr Bobat had previously told me that he wanted to meet with me

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and he said to me he wanted to discuss the Communications Unit and I took with me
the organogram of the Communications Unit and a few documents and I was
explaining to him the structure of the Communications Unit. My appointment as
Chief Director of Communications in October had occasioned a vacancy for the
position that I previously held. So I was explaining these things to Mr Bobat and I
was explaining to him that we had just started with the recruitment process for the
Director of Media Relations and Communications at which point he said to me "no,
no, no you need to stop that, you need to stop that" and I said to him "why" and he
said "we do not need to worry about that recruitment process." I explained to Mr
10

Bobat that, you know, he was having a conversation with the wrong person in this
because he needed to have this conversation with the Director General of the
National Treasury and the Deputy Director General who was responsible for
Corporate Services. They would be people that could – that he could discuss it with.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now at the time when he said you must stop with the
recruitment process how far was the process itself?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA:

I was appointed in October.

So we had already

advertised and I think at this point we had closed the advertisements and we had
received CV's. So the next step in the process would be for me to go through the
CV's and do a shortlist. So that is the state at which we were.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And despite all that he said that you must stop the
process?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: He said, he said "no you need to stop that."
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And then what happened?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Well I mean as I say I explained to him that I was not
authorised to make that decision. That authority rested with the DG of National

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
Treasury, but I also found the meeting very unusual, because my understanding of
his role as Advisor did not include him being involved in the processes of the
department certainly not the HR processes of the department. So I was quite taken
aback by what I thought was audacity on his part to be talking to me about what –
how we should be running the HR process and once I explained to him that he
needed to discuss the matter with the DG that was the close of – that was the end of
the discussion.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Did you discuss this issue with the DG at the time?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I certainly did.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And what was his reaction?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: He was angry. He was very angry.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Did he interact with – did you know if he did interact
with Mr Bobat on this issue?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I do not know if he interacted with Bobat on that issue. I
did not spend a lot of time on the second floor which is where the DG's office and the
Minister's office were. I spent most of my time in my office. So I was only there for
meetings. So if there were any interactions I did not see them.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: You continue also in your statement, you know, to
deal in the manner in which Mr Bobat was exercising his power and demonstrating

20

that the new sheriff is now in town he do so with relation to an incident pertaining to
one official that had to surrender his office.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes. So I had to go up to the Minister's office because
one of the things that we were being asked was a full CV of the Minister. We had
posted a very short CV of the Minister that included his qualifications and that
included his work experience and I was getting a lot of calls from people about

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
Minister was the Mayor of Merafong and a lot of journalists wanted to know when
and for how long was he mayor and also people wanted to know the qualifications
that he had listed, in which years were those qualifications obtained and from which
institutions. So I was in the Minister discussing this and the Minister asked me "you
know why are people interested in my CV" and I had to explain to the Minister why a
CV of a Minister of Finance is important and I explained to him that someone in that
role is entrusted with a lot of powers and because of that people want to know what
his experiences are, what his policy views are and trust in the office of the Minister of
Finance equals trust in government. So the Minister took the CV and said okay I
10

should wait outside of his office while he was going to fill in some of the blanks I had
highlighted. While I was waiting outside the Minister's office I witnessed Mr Bobat
ordering Mr Marlon Geswint to vacate his office and he was saying to Marlon "you
need to leave, this is where I am going to sit" and Marlon was explaining to him that
no this office is the office for the Chief of Staff and the Advisors sit on the other side
and it is quite a distance to go to where the Advisors sit and Mr Bobat was saying "I
need you out of this office right now and this is where I am going to sit" and he was
also explaining that everyone needed to move because he needed to be situated as
close to the Minister as possible.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

So did you get the impression that Mr Bobat was basically

beginning to break the rules that would – that he thought should be followed, you
know, after his arrival?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I certainly got that impression Chair. I mean in my
interaction with him I got the sense that he was ignorant of the rules, but he also was
not interested in what the rules were, but even if the rules were there he would
disregard them and he would make new rules, because I had explained to him when

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
he was talking to me about stopping the recruitment process I explained to him that I
was not authorised to do that, but it was – that was not important he was not
interested.
CHAIRPERSON: So what you had already witnessed in regard to him was one, the
first time he saw you he told you that from then onwards he would have to approve
any media statement that you issued, is that right?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes he did.
CHAIRPERSON: And then he told you to stop the recruitment process as well?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes he did.
10

CHAIRPERSON: And now he was being told where Advisors to the Minister – what
offices Advisors to the Ministers use and he was saying he was going to use another
one?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes he was telling people to move so that he can sit as
close to the Minister's office as possible.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now I take it that Treasury as a department had a
recruitment policy. It must have had a communication policy. It must have had other
policies that governed Treasury including in applicable pieces of legislation. Now
where was Mr Bobat deriving his power from as an Advisor?

20

MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I do not know. I do not know where Mr Bobat derived his
power from, but as I have previously testified in the two minutes – in the first two
minutes that I met with him he made it very clear that he had authority. Where he
derived it from I do not know.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And all this that you have related to the Chairperson
happened within a space of two days?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: It happened in a space of – yes inside of 24 hours.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And Mr Van Rooyen was the Minister of Finance for
two days.
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: He was the Minister for four days.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: For four days?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Chair that concludes the evidence of Ms Macanda
and I am told that it is already past the tea adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but did you say that concludes her evidence? Okay. Let
10

me just ask her one or two questions. Firstly Ms Macanda in case I forget thank you
for coming to the Commission to give evidence about what you know happened and
your understanding of what happened. Secondly, going back to the issue of Mr Van
Rooyen introducing the – his Advisor and his Chief of Staff you have already said
you have no recollection of him confusing their names or their roles or confusing
their roles or their names, is that right?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: That is right I do not have a specific recollection of that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. How far were you sitting from or I assume you were all
sitting from where the Minister was more or less?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I was quite at the end of the table. So the table is big

20

and round. The Minister and his two gentlemen were at the Head of the table and
the DG was next to them. I was at the far end closer to the door.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and how – where about was the then DG Mr Fuzile in relation
to the Minister?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: They were sitting very close to each other.
CHAIRPERSON: They were close to each other?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And you were far you say?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I was quite – yes I was quite far.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and where was the current DG Mr Mogajane in relation to the
Minister?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So the table is round so it was the Minister, it would have
been possibly Mr Bobat and Mr Whitley. The DG was sitting here and the other
Chair was taken by Mr Momoniat and Mr Dondo was in the middle of ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dondo Mogajane?
10

MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Sorry Mr Dondo Mogajane was much closer to the
Minister than I was.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that in the light of the position where you were you
may have not heard something that was said or do you think that it was not said?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: I am sorry?
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry. Do you think that the position where you were sitting
in relation to where the Minister was and where the then DG Mr Fuzile was and the
current DG was do you think that distance may have disadvantaged you with the
result that you might have missed something that where the Minister said or do you
think that you heard everything that was said by the Minister?

20

MS PHUMZA MACANDA: It is possible that my position at the table would have
disadvantaged me in that manner but I think for me it was because I was waiting for
the actual meeting to start. For me the most important thing that I was waiting for
there was the part where the Minister would start talking to us about his agenda and
the important things.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay so you are not in a position to say the confusion had

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not happened. You are simply saying you did not hear it and maybe the distance
that the position where you were sitting may have affected that. That is all you are
saying?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes I am saying I did not hear it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes. No, thank you very much.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Chair, just one question. Ms Macanda, you said
that you are a qualified journalist?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: Yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now at the time when the journalist wanted to know
10

about the qualifications of the Minister did you yourself you know take any initiative
to verify the qualifications of the Minister?
MS PHUMZA MACANDA: So verified perhaps I would not say I took time to verify
but what I had asked for to be done by people in the Communications Unit was to
source what we could find on Google so that we could have an interim sort of CV on
the website because that is the thing that people were interested in.
They wanted to know who he was, where he came from and in the media
he was being referred to as a back bencher. So I had done that but we really
needed a much more extensive CV that listed his experience, his background and
help people form views about what kind of a person and what kind of a Finance

20

Minister he would make.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. From your statement I think one, I got the impression
that there is something else that you would like to share with the Commission but
which might not have been considered necessary to include at this stage of the
hearing. I just want to assure you that we are interested in hearing whatever else

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you may have that would help us understand what was happening in terms of other
matters and if the Commission's Legal Team has not already taken the statement
that covers other matters they will be doing so soon because anything that relates to
what we are investigating that you might have information on will be important.
So you will be contacted in due course then with a view to either the
obtaining of that statement and ultimately you will be – you would be asked to come
back. So but thank you very much for coming and I am sure we will see you again.
Thank you very much. You are excused. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: We will take the short adjournment now and resume at 11:40. We
10

adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maleka?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Good morning, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Good morning, Mr Manyi.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr Manyi. Thank you. Are you ready?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Hopefully.
CHAIRPERSON: Should he be sworn in now?

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Registrar please do that.
REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Mzwanele Manyi.
REGISTRAR: Do you have any objection in taking the prescribed oath?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath to be binding on your conscience?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I do.
REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the
whole truth and nothing but the truth? If so please raise your right hand and say so
help me God.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: So help me God.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Maleka?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Thank you very much, Chair.

Mr Manyi, good

morning once again.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Hi.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You recall that at the end of your testimony on the
14 th of November 2016 through the Commission's attorney the Legal Team
addressed a letter to you dated 15 November 2018. You recall that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I do.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And you would remember that in that letter the
Commission's Legal Team set out a number of topics that it intended to raise with
you in the course of the resumption of your testimony this morning, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I can confirm that.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyi, it looks like if you keep yours on there will be no

20

problem – your mic on there will be no problem.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And you will recall also that after receipt of that letter
the Commission's attorney sent through to you a bundle of documents which
comprises some material that the Legal Team would like to raise with you this
morning. You received the bundle I take it?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I got the bundle.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Yes and you were invited to include whatever

information that you in turn would have wanted to raise this morning, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And you did so?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I did.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And that bundle is now before you and Chair a copy
has been transmitted to you in the course of Friday and may I remind you where it
should be and with your permission admitted it as an exhibit? You will recall that Mr
Manyi ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: Before that Mr Maleka you say it was transmitted to me on Friday?
I do not know anything about that. I did not receive anything on Friday. I did not
receive anything over the weekend. I see there is a bundle here.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Which I am seeing for the first time. I am told by my Registrar that
she was only told during Ms Macanda's evidence this morning that I was going to
need Exhibit M.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: And she then – she made arrangements or arrangements were
made for me to use this Exhibit M but we had not brought it.

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, first of all thanks that you now have before you
Exhibit M and you will recall that that is the bundle on the strength of which Mr Manyi
testified previously on the 14 th of November and that will be the bundle that I would
canvas with him with reference to his version to Ms Williams' evidence.
I will get to it in a moment but what we did following upon the letter that Mr
Manyi confirms he has received was to prepare a bundle of documents and we have

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now labelled that bundle as Exhibit M1 to follow sequentially from Exhibit N.
I have asked my colleagues to mark yours on the spine as Exhibit M1.
Chair, can I ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well the one that is here is not marked M1 on the spine.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: May I kindly ask ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Just to make sure that it is the right thing it is written Secondary
Evidence Bundle of Mr Mzwanele Manyi.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Indeed. Indeed.
CHAIRPERSON: You ...(intervenes).
10

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: May I propose that it be marked Exhibit M1?
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: So that when the time comes to begin to write
submissions we know where to find it?
CHAIRPERSON: This bundle which at pages 1 to 3 thereof reflects according to the
index Auditor General Report to Parliament on the financial statements and
performance information of Ward 7 Government Communications and Information
Systems, the bundle that has got that will be marked Exhibit M for Mary 1.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: I am indebted to you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is the witness's one already marked?

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, I understand from my colleagues that it has been
marked and just to confirm Mr Manyi before you, you will have two bundles. The one
is Exhibit M which includes your statements that you previously canvassed on the
14 th of November 2018, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes that is correct.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And the second bundle will be the one that includes

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
documents previously made available to you which has been marked Exhibit M1 at
the back of it.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, I think that underlines the data set that we will
be dealing with. Mr Manyi, before I leave the identification of the data set can I
confirm with you that you have now prepared yourself on the topics that we identified
in the letter to you that we would like to raise with you and you are quite comfortable
that we should raise those questions with you, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chairperson I am so ready such that because I also
10

am not assisted by any legal representative so therefore, Chairperson I seek your
indulgence, Chairperson that I am allowed to go through my statement as I have
prepared it and then so that I can, because I have been given these documents –
these questions I can go through these questions in my own approach and then
thereafter Mr Maleka is free to ask any question in whatever shape or form but I
request, Chairperson that I be allowed to table my statement because I do have the
questions and I have prepared answers and I request that I get given the
opportunity. It is on the short statement Chairperson. It is about five pages that I go
through my statement. I am not going to read word for word. I go through my
statement and I am sure I will be answering a lot of his questions so that he can then

20

ask those that are outstanding.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

Mr Maleka was asking you the question whether you are ready for him to ask you
any questions on the topics that they have indicated to you and then in your
response you said you would like me to give you an opportunity to read, present
your statement and then after that he can ask you any questions. Now let me ask

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first in regard to whether you are ready to answer any questions that Mr Maleka
might put to you on the topics that you have been notified about is your answer that
you are ready but you would like that before that happens you be afforded an
opportunity to talk to your statement as it were?

You are not going to read

everything but to just talk on what you want to present without being asked questions
as yet and after that you can be asked questions. Is that what you are saying?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Not precisely Chair. What I am asking is that because the
Commission has been very kind enough to give me the areas of questions I have
prepared my statement in line with those areas of questions. So I am requesting to
10

have a first bite at giving the answers of to those questions and if it turns out that
there are some inadequacies anywhere Mr Maleka is free to fill in the gaps and
probe some more, but I think in that way Chairperson there will be much more
benefit for the Commission because I have sequenced – because what I have seen
happening here you get, you get from page five to page 20 to page, it gets very
disorienting Chairperson. So in order for me to have a proper flow I am requesting
that I get given the opportunity to table the answers in the form of the statement
which are already contained in my statement. I think in that way it will really assist.
CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Maleka I do not know if you have any problem with that?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Not at all Chair as long as he identifies ...(intervenes).

20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes ...(intervenes).
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Where we get the statement in the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay Mr Manyi ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Thank you Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: I will allow you to do that.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay Chair thank you. So the first question Chairperson

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
related to me being at GCIS how does it happen and all of that and the straight
answer there Chairperson is that my going to GCIS was from the Department of
Labour. It was actually a transfer. That is a formal categorisation of how I went
there. It is a transfer and with – when a transfer happens some of the questions that
Mr Maleka has asked do not arise. For instance he has asked a question about
whether was I interviewed, those questions do not arise Chairperson when getting
transferred they arise when you get appointed. Then there is assessment and all of
this, but I was already in the public service. So that question does not arise. I was
transferred and in fact I have tried to assist the Chairperson Mr Maleka in terms of
10

whether how does that happen in the first place.
Chairperson I have got Exhibit 1 here which Mr Maleka will find on page 227
and page 228 in his bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that now of ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: M1.
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit M1?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Page 227 and 228 is the Public Service Act. I just took
extracts there Chairperson of just two pages. Just a cover page of the Act and the

20

actual paragraph which is Section 12(3)(a) which reads;
"That the President may transfer the Head of a National Department
or National Government component before or at the expiry of his or
her term of extended term to perform functions in a similar or any
other capacity in a National Department or National Government
component in a post of equal, higher or lower grading or additional

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
to the establishment as the President considers appropriate."
So that is a Section I trust Chair regularises what – my appointment and
on top of that Chairperson on your bundle page 229 I have got Exhibit 2 which is
actually my letter of transfer.

So everything was done according to the book

Chairperson and then I move on to my time at GCIS. One of the things that was
asked was the issue around I think the issues around the Bid Adjudication
Committee.

So what I have then done Chairperson is that on Exhibit 3

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable if I ask you about this letter before you
10

proceed?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Go ahead I am comfortable.
CHAIRPERSON: Or would you want to prefer to proceed and finish first?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: You are comfortable?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I see that that letter is dated 22 February 2010 am I right?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is correct Chairperson 2011.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh it is 2011 not 2010?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Was the – was it signed before you assumed duty at GCIS or was
it – did it come after GCIS?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: It came afterwards Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Okay you may proceed.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Right, okay so one of the questions that I need to
answer Chairperson is on Exhibit 3 which talks to, I think it is probably a follow up,

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but Mr Maleka will then probe some more. It is just an Exhibit 3 Chairperson in
terms of the financial delegations. The one that still responds to the issue of me
saying that I did not say I wanted to sign off everything. I wanted to sign off that
which was R500 000 and above and that was already – that was a financial
delegation. So I just took one page of the financial delegation Chairperson. It is on
your bundle page 230 that is where it is. It is just one page. There is something
written there at the bottom about concurrence with the CEO prior to the finalisation
that is when things are above R500 000. So that is one Chair. Then there was a
question about ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am sorry, for what it is worth because you in terms of the
record you have mentioned your names as Mzwanele Manyi.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And did not mention any other name. Shall we confirm that the
name that is used there at 230 that refers to you?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson it is my slave name Jimmy.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to make sure that whoever reads the record knows
...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: It is the same as the witness.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That is referred to.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. It is part of the decolonisation exercise. I am trying
to be African here. So yes Chairperson. So then the next issue was the issue

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
around I am saying here my interactions with other departments was done at Chief
Director level. We use a system there which we call TELMA to determine where to
place adverts. GCIS sits with the most objective tool in deciding where adverts
should be placed. Departments via their Head of Communication would approve the
placements. Sometimes they would actually even defy advice from GCIS.
Then I then make a point Chairperson that the issue of media diversity was
at the centre of GCIS communication strategy that it was so much at the centre that
GCIS even had a subsidiary called MDDA run by a very able cadre Mr Lumko
Mtimde at the time. MDDA is Media Development and Diversity Agency. The brief of
10

this agency was to ensure that government is assisting in terms of developing other
platforms of communication. Government does not want a monologue. Government
wants to make sure that all the voices of everyone in South Africa are heard as it
were. So that is a posture of government. So within Media Diversity there are two
groups of companies or two groups of media groupings that could be find there
covered within the Act. It says in fact an act on this matter, MDDA Act as well. So,
but there are two groups of media that you find there. There is what is called
Community Media and there is also what is called Small Media – Commercial Small
Media. So those are the two groups of media that are covered within the Act.
So in my view Chairperson when the issue of the New Age came about it

20

was a very welcome development because it fitted in very well with what government
was trying to do. Government had a proper infrastructure of even helping the
development of these agencies – of these companies. So when this one came on its
own not even with the assistance – the direct assistance of government in there so I
thought well this is a very welcome move and in particular the TNA – the New Age
brought in a different editorial stance Chairperson which was decidedly not hostile to

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government, which was very important because at the time government as suffering
from a serious media onslaught generally and the challenge that government has
had is to be – is to say to media, try – we are not saying try to be nice to government
but try and be balanced in your reporting, but it looked like Chairperson the posture
of mainstream media is that when you do something right the attitude is that you get
paid to do it in anyway. They wait until you do something wrong then they headline
with that. Now the posture of TNA was the complete opposite. It was a posture of
saying the glass is half full as opposed to the glass is half empty. That was the
posture of it. So it was a very welcome posture as it were and also even price wise it
10

was not the most expensive in terms of the ads for the same amount of square
centimetres in that page or there is half a page ad or full page ad they were still
much more competitive than others.
Now Chairperson one of the exhibits which I did not submit because I did my
research late, I do not know if the Registrar can give this to the Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a copy for Mr Maleka?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay I only have two copies here Chairperson. I want to
read on the one.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, unfortunately. Now ...(intervenes).

20

CHAIRPERSON: Let me have a look first ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Then I will get the Registrar to give it to Mr Maleka.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: If Chairperson you can – the particular page I wanted to
look, to ask ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Is the second last page that starts with that is the concept.
The page before that one Chair it starts with that is the concept.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Now as you are browsing through this Chairperson this is
a letter written by Ms Phumla Williams on the same subject of New Age and she was
responding to a journalist here called Ranjeni Munusamy. So Ranjeni had raised a
very interesting issue about that these breakfasts are elitist, they deprive people an
opportunity to come to these elaborate breakfasts and so on and why is GCIS
involved in these breakfasts? Now and Ms Williams was here last time arguing that
10

she was being pressured to support these breakfasts and all of that. That was her
posture, but this is a letter Chairperson that I think we must thank Ms Ranjeni
Munusamy that she had made this letter public. This is from the website Daily
Maverick dated 6 th of February 2013. Now just to read just couple paragraphs of this
Chair for the benefit of those that do not have this copy. This is an extract from the
letter of Ms Phumla Williams responding to the issue of GCIS being involved in
breakfasts and ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, one second. Registrar, give this to Mr Maleka. Mr Maleka,
do you want us to mark it in any way at this stage or maybe later?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, can we take the liberty of marking it in due

20

course?
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And we will distribute copies later.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right. The concern is simply that he has given some
evidence about it on record and whoever reads the transcript will not at that stage
know where to find it but maybe we might not have an option.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Can I propose that it comes at the end of Exhibit M1?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And then it will begin at page 281.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, all right.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: I will take the liberty of ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Paginating it.
CHAIRPERSON: Paginating it yes. So it will not be a separate exhibit. It will just
be put at the end of the existing bundle Exhibit M1 already.
10

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And then all that will happen is that it will be paginated?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Indeed, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes you may continue Mr Manyi.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Thank you, Chair. So in addition to what I have said,
Chairperson this is what Ms Phumla Williams said in February 2013 and I must
underline Chair but at that time I was not even in the public – I was not in GCIS at
the time but this is how she responded here without my help that:
"The concept of the New Age breakfast meeting was one which
appealed to government as it presented the best of both worlds."

20

She says:
"Government leaders could interact with the audience in attendance
and at the same time reach millions of viewers watching on
television."
She says:
"As a platform it allows government to speak directly to a variety of

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stakeholders such as business people, thought leaders and of
course the people of South Africa."
And she says:
"It allows the audience to engage directly with government leaders
to probe them and to obtain a deeper understanding of policies and
programs.

At the same time the television audience has the

opportunity to hear first-hand about issues which often directly
affect them. Ms Munusamy in the article gives an impression that
government Ministers and the President do not use platforms
10

available to them from SABC and so on. The New Age/Morning
Live platform is one of the platforms available that government uses
to communicate with citizens. Ms Munusamy conveniently chose to
forget that the President following the State of the Nation address
has an SABC interview where he further elaborates on his
message. This platform compliments a suite of other platforms that
are used by government to communicate with its citizens and no
preferential treatment is given to any platform whatsoever."
On the next page just a short paragraph there, Chair if you indulge me.
"At the end of the day an informed citizenry is good for democracy

20

and we will continue to strive to engage with people on every
available platform we are fully aware that no single platform can
reach every person therefore we will continue engaging face to face
via all media channels in parliament and every other available
platform. A government communications system is a wellfunctioning system with its own weaknesses and successes. The

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battle of ideas in a contested society such as ours cannot be won
only through one platform but by use of all available to our citizens."
So that was Ms Williams, Chairperson responding basically to the
question that Mr Maleka is posing here by way of why this breakfast and so on – say
more about this breakfast, explain more. So this is the context that I agree with. I
differ with Ms Williams on a lot of things but on this one we are together. There it is,
Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought there was a point you were seeking to make in regard to
the article maybe reflecting something different from what she may have told the
10

Commission. Not really? That is not your point?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: It is actually also the point, Chairperson because I think in
the Commission she had come here basically with a posture that is opposite to what
is being said here and her posture, Chairperson was one that said it is one that was
not understanding what she seems to be fully conversant with here and all that and
yes her doing it last time it was more like I mean she used the word that she was
being bullied into doing this thing but if I read this article here like I have just done,
Chairperson you can see that this is a person that believed in this thing.
So this is why it is quite strange how Ms Williams operates that on the one
side she says this and the next time says something completely opposite which is

20

without belabouring the point, Chairperson. We have dealt with the SMS matter
which was – also my surprise because the last time I left GCIS we were on very
good terms. There were no issues at all. That is why I was comfortable to talk to
her and then before I knew there was a 180 degree turn in her attitude.
So I just do not know what actually happens is happening in her space
that she goes left, she goes right, she goes left, she goes right but anyway this is

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
what she said.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes that article would it be an article that she would have written
as part of her official duties or would it be an article that she may have just decided
to write at a personal level or are you not able to tell?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, I am able to tell, Chairperson. In fact I just want to
read just a cover page of this article. It says:
"In an earlier article Ranjeni Munusamy criticised what she termed
the elitism of government communication in South Africa where only
a select few who could afford it were privy to crucial information
10

about our democracy as well as a non-performance by R429 million
a year GCIS. Unsurprisingly the GCIS disagrees. In the interest of
broader debate we published a letter by Ms Phumla Williams Acting
GCIS CEO in its entirety."
So Chairperson she was acting here as – this was written in her capacity
as Acting GCIS CEO responding to the query about the use of New Age and so on
and this breakfast.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: So the whole question about breakfast ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well you see the reason why I was asking whether she may have

20

written in her personal capacity – official capacity is this. That is it not possible that
insofar as she – as long as she was writing in her official capacity as Acting CEO of
GCIS she was supposed to reflect the government's position as opposed to her
personal view and maybe on another occasion she might have been expressing her
personal views.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, Chairperson I think – okay I hear you, Chairperson.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
There is nothing personal here, Chairperson. This is the position of the Department.
I think this is why it is complemented by what I have said. In my statement here I
have said that the measures of the New Age was a welcome development so this
backs it up. So this was our position, Chairperson. We wanted diversity, wanted a
multiplicity of voices.
CHAIRPERSON: But you understand the point I am making?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And I am making it as whether there is a possibility namely if I
speak as Deputy Chief Justice of the Republic in regard to certain matters at an
10

official occasion I might not include my personal views. I might speak on the official
position of the judiciary but maybe if I am speaking on another occasion when for
example I might no longer be Deputy Chief Justice it may well be that I might then
say well that was the official position that I had to convey because I was speaking in
that capacity.
No I am no longer a Deputy Chief Justice and if you want my personal
view this is my personal view.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. No, Chairperson I think I hear you but let me just
read the first opening paragraph to contextualise what capacity she was speaking
on. The first paragraph she says:

20

"In her column in the Daily Maverick on the 1 st of February 2013
Ranjeni Munusamy erroneously attempts to paint a picture that the
government communication and information system does not
adequately fulfil its mandate of communicating with the public about
government policies, plans, programs and achievements.

This

assumption is flawed on a number of levels. Firstly, government

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
has a responsibility to reach every citizen."
Then she carries on. So Chairperson this is clearly somebody articulating
her government position.
CHAIRPERSON: Well that is all the more reason why I keep on going back to the
question because I thought to the extent that she may be expressing government
position that might detract from the force that your point might have had if she said
something else at a time when she was required to you know speak her views –
speak her views you know under oath and not necessarily government's position or
attitude.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: You understand?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I understand, Chairperson yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think this here is more government position.
CHAIRPERSON: Government position.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Her statement under oath is probably a personal position.
CHAIRPERSON: It is something else yes. Okay thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Thank you, Chair. So, Chairperson there was also some
question of whether I would have encouraged any DG or anybody to have used the
New Age. Almost definitely, Chairperson I would have encouraged everyone I could
come across because this was actually assisting in the government's approach of
multiplicity of voices.
So if anyone wants to come here and say Manyi encouraged me I am not

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
going to create war to deny any of that because chances are that I might have and
so on although I might not remember the specifics but it is something that generally I
would do because I thought it is the right thing to do.
What I also liked about the New Age is that what they did, Chairperson is
that the creativity and the innovation of reporting per province. So what you would
find in that publication is that at one sitting you could say okay let me check what is
happening in North West and then you get a sense of what is happening in North
West.
What is happening in Mpumalanga? What is happening you know the
10

different provinces. So it had that. So it was a very useful publication and all that
and I think also for government it would have been very useful because government
generally has a problem in having its messages carried across because media –
mainstream media takes the position that says they are not the conveyer belt for
government. They are the watchdog. This is the approach they take that they are
the watchdog.
Now government has invested in a lot of equipment hoping in various
press places I mean if you go to GCIS in Pretoria, you go to GCIS in Cape Town a lot
of money has been spent by government to ensure that they use media as a partner
in communicating – in its communication.

20

But media is not of the same mind. Media is there to say what wrong are
you doing. They are there with a red pen. In fact when you go to a press briefing –
when you go to a press briefing you can go there, Chairperson and read 10 pages
and all that and the very first questions that come after the press briefing is not
anything about what you have written.
It is the things that they came to the briefing with. It is an opportunity for

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
them to ask all these other questions.

So as a result when you look at the

newspaper the next day you will be lucky to find one sentence of what you had read
reflected in there.
So when you have a paper like the New Age which has a different posture in
terms of half – the glass is half full it was a very welcome posture and not that by the
way, Chairperson it did not reflect some of the wrong things that were happening in
government which I will take the Chairperson through just to illustrate that this paper
was indeed balanced in its approach. Now one of the things for instance that would
be used against this paper Chairperson would be that it is not a member of the ABC,
10

Audit Bureau of Circulation. So what this means Chairperson that the big four in the
media space, you know, your Times Media, your what is now called Tiso Blackstar,
your independent, what is the other one Naspers and Caxton, the four big groups.
They have this thing called Audit Bureau of Circulation where they work – they audit
how much of the newspapers have been printed and have been circulated and sold
and all of that and then based on that then they come up with a number through that
audit process to say this newspaper has got a circulation of 100 000 and that
circulation figure then gives a basis for the rate card. So in other words the rate card
is a pricing mechanism to say do I price this, do I price this half a page this much?
Do I price a full page this much and so on based on the reach that that newspaper

20

would have and that – then that determines how much should an ad cost as it were.
So that is what they would use.
Now the New Age was not part of that deliberately so, because they did not
believe that that system was a welcoming system. It was the view of the New Age
editors at the time that in fact this thing was also conflict because – riddled with
conflict because all the people that sat on the board of this thing were all from, you

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
know it is almost like a cabal of the same newspapers sitting here and deciding that
okay you have this much, you have this much and all that and that determines, that
determines the price of an ad.
Now this ABC thing Chairperson was also used if you like as a mechanism,
artificial barriers to entry. So newspaper – Community Media would not make the
criteria required to be in this ABC and all that. So what that does then is that if this
Community Media or as New Age you go to a private sector company to try and get
them to put ads in your paper. The first thing they ask you is your ABC and if you do
not have that ABC they cannot do business with you. So this has been the problem.
10

So at the time when I was at GCIS it was a be all and end all to have ABC.
So we would use Community Media deliberately so knowing they have not got ABC
ratings, but because there are other ways of checking this for instance the New Age
was using audit to say auditors must audit how many papers they are circulating, but
it was not the approach of New Age in any case to look at circulation. Their
approach was based on what they call readership and the philosophy here
Chairperson is that, the philosophy is that with readership for instance if there is a
family of five not all five members of the family must buy a particular newspaper.
One newspaper is enough maybe for the entire household as it were.
So New Age was using that kind of a system to say how many households

20

are there. How many people are in a household. So if we sold one newspaper that
newspaper will be read by 10 people as an example. So that is a kind of philosophy
they were using in terms of saying what is the reach of their publication.
CHAIRPERSON: But how would they know how many able, how many people they
were able to reach namely how many members of a family had read a newspaper if
they did not know how many newspapers they sold?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Yes.

Thank you Chairperson it is a very important

questions. Stats SA ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: So in other words it seems to me that you have got to first know
how many newspapers you have sold then before you can then say but how many
people do we reach because just because one paper is bought by one person does
not mean necessarily that it will be read by that one person only.
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Yes.

Yes thank you Chairperson.

That is correct

Chairperson. That is why I did say earlier there is an issue of audit. So there will be
an auditor that would audit how many papers have been sold so to speak, sent,or
10

because they used different models of distributing the paper or rather selling the
paper. The one model was the retail model where you would go and sell like at the
street corners and all of that, but the other model was subscription based.
So they would say this particular government department as an example
requires a 100 copies. So it is very clear 100 copies go to Mpumalanga, a 1000
copies go to wherever. So there will be subscription based and the subscription
base was in fact the lion share in terms of the revenue streams because those were
guaranteed and all that. So there would be all clear arrangements with various
departments to say or various government departments to say I require so many
newspapers and all that. So that would be one firm way of establishing exactly how

20

many newspapers would be out and then you multiply that also by a factor of how
many people are in that government department and in fact some of those people
will take the paper home and STATS SA is very meticulous Chairperson about the
number of people in a household. So that information is readily available. In the
TELMAS system all of those nitty gritties are also in there just to get to know the
reach of the paper and all that, but the important thing Chairperson on this matter is

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
that the GCIS rather, I beg your pardon, the TNA approach was a lot more
scientifically sound than the ABC in this way. One of the newspapers in this country
that has got the biggest circulation is Daily Sun. Now the Daily Sun probably trumps
everybody in terms of how many newspapers it circulates, but what ABC does not
seem to take into account is something called psychographics, because it is all well
and good to say my paper has gone to a million people, but what are the
psychographics of those people?

Can you take an analysis of a judgment

Chairperson and put it on a Daily Sun and hope that the Daily Sun market is going to
read that? They would not. It is not their cup of tea. They are interested in other
10

things as it were.
So therefore the TNA approach was much more targeted as well and
therefore the issue of what we call spillage was less in TNA. So with these others
there is a lot of spillage. I mean if I live in Northern Cape and one copy of a
Sowetan is identical from the one side – from Limpopo to Cape Town is an identical
copy of the Sowetan I mean that blunt approach how much value does it add to
somebody sitting in Postmasburg and so on? You will find that there is nothing in
Postmasburg covered in the Sowetan. In fact I can even bet even today if you were
to open Sowetan today Chairperson I am almost sure there is not much covered in
Postmasburg, but if you had the New Age you would have a focus on Northern

20

Cape. You would have a focus on this and all that and what that does it helps even
government in those regions to know what are the issues affecting people in the
various localities.
So instead of buying one paper that is just blunt that is just covering Gauteng
issues and maybe something in Cape Town and Durban and so on but the rest of the
country is almost non-existent as it were in terms of the coverage.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
So that is the – what New Age did and that is why this ABC was actually not
meaningful. In fact Chairperson I think government should be wary of insisting
because I know here of lately they are insisting on this as well. This is part of the
capture of government by the newspapers. Newspapers actually have captured
government because government is now also almost insisting on ABC, which I think
is a mistake because it is anti-developmental. You cannot have a situation where
government is going to insist on this thing, because this is an artificial barrier to
entry. New players are not able to go into this. New players will not have a rate card
that recognises them.
10

So it is a really big mistake. So I would really be encouraging government
not to be using ABC. They can use it but they must not exclude those that do not
have it and all of that Chairperson. So that is that one. To proceed Chairperson
then there is the issue of cost and the subtext of how much we paid and Chairperson
as I go through this I am going to ask the Registrar, I do not know if you have got
equipment here to be able to put and flag this, just one slide.
CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Maleka are you able to be of assistance to Mr Manyi in
regard to slides?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair I am technologically challenged, but what was
indicated as a short statement has gone for far too long now.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Well, but in terms of assisting him with slides you say you are
technologically challenged?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Yes we can make those arrangements during

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: For later.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: During the lunch adjournment.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: Okay Mr Manyi so that can be dealt with later.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: It is just one slide by the way.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I wanted to show.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: In terms of the costing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Now ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well before you say, well Mr Maleka you kind of complained that
what was intended as a short statement has taken long. It is fine. I have asked Mr
Manyi some questions. Let us allow him to complete. Thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Thank you Chair. Thank you for the protection Chair.
Now Chairperson I had put a slide here. It is a pity that the Chairperson does not
have the copy of this here and I see also the printout of – printouts are not as clear,
but my copy is much clearer that I wish I could even share it with the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought Mr Maleka said that you had sent to them documents
that you wanted to use?

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I have.
CHAIRPERSON: Which were included here, but there was the earlier one which
does not appear to have been included. Is that another one that ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No this one is – actually it is part of the statement this
one.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: On page – yes it is in the statement this one Chairperson
on Exhibit 4 and 5 page 231 and 235, 236 to 240.
CHAIRPERSON: 231 to 236?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: 231, yes, Chairperson from 231.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay all right. Yes you may proceed then.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.

What I am showing there Chairperson is that

financial year 2011/2012 because sometimes when we deal with TNA we deal with it
out of context. So I thought it is important that we must deal with it ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: TNA being The New Age?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: The New Age, yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think it is important that we deal with it in context. Now
on Exhibit Q4 Chairperson which will be there on page 231 to 235. There is a whole
list in those exhibit Chairperson of – from 231 to 235 of all the media that was ever
paid in GCIS in 2011/2012 which was my period. So the total bill for the year was
like R194 million. That is how much GCIS paid in the year 2011/2012. So I am
going to deal with the two years that I was there 2011/2012 and 2012/2013. So the
first date ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Manyi you have just mentioned the total.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Where about is it? Is it on page 231?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: On my actual statement, the one I am reading now
Chairperson on 231 that will be a list of – there is a total at the top ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: And the breakdown.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes so I am just talking to that.
CHAIRPERSON: The amount at the top is the total?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Is the total that 194.
CHAIRPERSON: Involving all publications?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Of all the publications.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. So then the total is R194 million.
CHAIRPERSON: That is 199,132,58, is that right?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: It is 194 169 477,96.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay I am sorry. You are looking at the first column. I am looking
at the second one. Now I know where you are.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Have you got it Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Now I know where you are, yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Right.
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: So that is, that is the global amount in terms of total
spend on media by GCIS in the year 2011/2012.

So the amount there is

R194 169 477,96 that is the global amount.
20

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume that the reference to 2011/2012 refers to the
financial year?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Financial year.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes financial year, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is the financial year. Okay so just on a high level
Chairperson then I then on my statement which I am reading now I just
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Before you go to your statement the column if I may call it that
where the total appears which you have told me about is at the top and then below
that there is another column. Is that the one where you say – is that the one that you
say reflects the breakdown of the various publications?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes okay let me explain this what you see in front of you
Chair. What you see right at the top you see 2011/2012 financial year expend right
10

at the top and the number there is R194 169 477,96. That is right at the top.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: And then there is the next line is 2012/2013 and then
2013/2014 there is a blank because I was not there.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Now on – then you get this other table at the bottom
supplier total expend that 199 that the Chair read is just for that one company called
Adreach.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: It is just the one company.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Then the next one there is Ads24 which is your Naspers
at R17 million. So that is the one. So what I have then done Chairperson to – so
that there is about five pages of the spreadsheet that shows exactly which company
was paid how much. Now what I have then done, Chairperson just to take just the
ones that constitute the lion's share and I put only those on my statement

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Just to say of this 194 here with the big hitters of that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Because the others are just sharing the spoils.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So in terms of that then, Chairperson in the year 2011/2012 SABC
was paid R68 889 851.50. That is how much was paid just to SABC.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Followed by just in terms of magnitudes, followed by
Ads24. Ads24 is a marketing arm of Naspers. It is your City Press, Rapport all of
that group, Chairperson. That group got R17 995 122.27. That is what that group
got and then you have got Avusa at the time which is now Tiso Blackstar which is
where we are here today in this building those people in that year they got
R11 219 856.86 and then there was Etv. Etv got R8 517 788.36 and then you get
the New Age and the New Age got R8 691 634.86.
So that is how the lay of the land was, Chairperson and if you compute
that you then say what is the percentage of the New Age in this whole lot? The

20

actual percentage, Chairperson if you work out the ratio between the R8 million and
the 194 it is actually 4.5%.
Okay so of the total add spend of 2011/2012 the New Age got its piece of
the action was 4.5%. The rest was everybody else as it were.
CHAIRPERSON: But is your – is the basis of your comparison correct? I have not
had time to study this.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So I am thinking aloud. Take for example you say SABC for
example got a certain amount which is a big amount but SABC is big and has got
different TV channels, has got numerous radio stations, I do not know how many
they are but numerous.
Now did you do the exercise of for example saying which radio stations for
example what did each one of the radio stations receive under SABC? What did
each television channel under SABC receive because you see you are comparing
them with New Age.
10

You know as I understand New Age did not have other children. It was
just New Age.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

So it seems to me assume that we are talking of maybe a

broadcasting company maybe competing with SABC one might have said well does
it have – did it have as many radio stations?
Did it have radio stations and television or was it just you know television?
How many channels? How many radio stations because the more it has namely
radio stations and TV channels then the more you can understand if it gets in terms
of revenue from advertisements because then that would go to different ones.
20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And if for example you were talking about a newspaper you know
if you take a newspaper company that has a number of newspapers that it publishes
and you look at what it got from GCIS, so let us say it has got five or six or whatever
number of newspapers when you look at the revenue but you simply relate the
revenue – the size of the revenue to the company and not to each individual

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
newspaper you may well logically easily find that of course the revenue that New
Age got is smaller than the revenue that this other newspaper company got because
it has got many newspapers.
To be fair you probably would need to take one newspaper under that
group or that company which has go a lot of newspapers. Look at one and then look
at New Age and say okay let us compare. What do you say to that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, no Chairperson I follow your logic but the figures
here actually reflect that and by the way I am not complaining that they got more. As
you can see R68 million I am not complaining.
Your line of thought is actually embedded in here and I am just showing

10

what is it that we actually got – what actually what TNA actually got but not that I am
complaining but I am saying this is the facts as they stand.
Now also if you maybe actually SABC is not even a competitor of TNA
because it is electronic broadcast and all of that so there is other dynamics there and
all that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: But put that aside, Chairperson. Even with the other
newspapers the issue for me is that they may also be however big in terms of
circulation but there is a spillage in the circulation. So the effective communication
20

does not happen there because it is just a blunt tool. It is just one paper that is
universal for the country and its usefulness to the various parts of the provinces
leaves much to be desired.
So therefore there must be some pricing consideration that takes into
account target marketing versus a gunshot approach. So what we have here you
have got newspapers that have got call it a gunshot approach and you just hope for

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
the best and all of that whereas when you do the weighting of the quality of
distribution that is what it comes to, Chairperson that you may have a quantity of
distribution but the qualitative aspects of that might be lacking and as far as
government is concerned government is interested in both quality and quantity.
CHAIRPERSON: But let us go back to my question. Let us take average for
example. I understood you to be saying that is not one newspaper or what I wrong?
Average?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Average yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes? What they got was R199 million something, is it not?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, it is R199 000. It is a small publication.
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that please.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: R199 000.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Which one did you – which one does City Press fall under? You
mentioned one that ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Ads24, just below that one, Chairperson that R17 million.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Does that not have a number of newspapers?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: They have got Afrikaans Rapport. They are a weekend
newspaper mainly.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: So yes. So it is quite a big statement.
CHAIRPERSON: So one weekend newspaper?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: They have got City Press, has got one. It is a weekend
newspaper.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: There is no City Press on a daily basis.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes so it is not a number of newspapers under them? That is
what I am trying to look at bearing in mind what I was asking you earlier on.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: In terms of comparing.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay I hear you, Chairperson. The – I think the question
10

is correct. There would be Ads24. Maybe that would include Rapport which is a
different newspaper, City Press, I do not know whatever else they might have but
they are mainly those two.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Really for this for what we are paying for here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That will be the weekend newspapers really in terms of
this one.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Do you accept the proposition that or do you have a problem
with the proposition that it may be better if one compared a newspaper with a

20

newspaper one – as opposed to one newspaper as opposed to a group of
newspapers in one company to get a picture of the ratio?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes well, Chairperson it is not as – I hear you but it is not
as simplistic as that because there is also crosspollination. So for instance you find
that the one newspaper could cover – the one newspaper in the group maybe to that
point the one newspaper could cover this particular aspect.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
That same aspect can be covered in another sister publication and all
that. Similarly for instance you would find that with the New Age for instance they
would have a system where much of what – they would cover whatever they cover in
the newspaper but some of it would also be covered on the TV Section without you
paying more as it were.
So which mitigates the issue of a circulation of a newspaper because they
have a TV aspect as well so when they go and do a value proposition a value
proposition includes that although we pay for the newspaper but we will get some
mentions on TV as it were.
10

So the mechanical one on one comparison does not work. The important
thing here, Chairperson is that these companies is just – it is the companies that you
deal with a particular editorial line as it were and ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes of course the reason why we are where we are that is you and
me on this question is because my understanding was that your initial approach
...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes?
CHAIRPERSON: Was to simply say look at what Ads24 got for example. Look at
what New Age got. It is much more smaller therefore blah, blah, blah and maybe I
ask you to soon.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you were still going to say ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, no Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: You knew better.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. No, Chairperson – I think Chairperson perhaps that
goes to the crux of the different understandings of State Capture because the

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narrative out there is that the New Age was like gobbling up all government money
so my response here is to show that they got what they got but let us not create the
impression that this newspaper gobbled up all of government advertising. They just
took what was due to them which was in proportion to their size as it were. So it is
just talking to its size that to be four percent, 4.5% was probably in proportion to its
size. So let us not create the impression that 4.5% is actually the 100% of the
spend. This is the issue Chairperson. If you had a New Age given its size being
paid R68 million now you are talking, but if you have a New Age consuming only
4.5% given its size you then say but what is this big fuss all about because it is in
10

proportion to its size.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay all right thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maleka may or may not take that further but you may proceed.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay thank you Chairperson. So on – so that is what are
the numbers in terms of 2011/2012 and also Chairperson on Exhibit Q5 which is on
page 236 to 240 it is the same kind of thing just different numbers, but there you can
see that again SABC given its size and everything nobody is questioning them but
they got R71 million. Naspers got R20 million. Tiso Blackstar got – they went from
R11 million in 2011/2012 to more than double to R28,7 million and that does not

20

mean then Chairperson that they doubled their circulation. This is the thing. They
went from R11 million without doubling their circulation, but they still more than
doubled almost tripled actually their revenue Tiso Blackstar. So that is the thing and
I think after this Commission here they will be even much more richer as it were
because this is still their group. So that is what is happening there Chairperson. Etv
went from R8 million to R10 million and TNA went from R8,6 million to 7 it actually

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went down. So in the year 2012/2013 it was just a sliver. If you had these gadgets
here just to show in proportion you will see then Chairperson that in 2012/2013 the
New Age was actually 3,2%. So the number is even smaller as it were. So the
notion that they got more than their fair share is really not supported by substance
Chairperson. So yes. So that I think that covers the question of cost and all that in
terms of that one. Now Chairperson I want to deal with the issue of Mr Maleka
wanted to know the issues surrounding the liquidation of the New Age. Now and I
am saying here Chairperson in order to understand that it is important to understand
the – how New Age/ANN7 that media house was perceived. It was perceived as
10

friendly to government, but the sample I am going to show you is going to show that
it was a balanced publication which was half full as opposed to half empty but at the
same time if there is evidence of capture as it were this publication would show that
and I think Chairperson I want to say that I think the demise of this publication was
really because of its focus on what I would call white collar corporate capture of the
State. This is what – this is a phenomena that I think is actually at play in South
Africa the white collar corporate capture of the State and this is exemplified by the
kind of reportage that the New Age was doing and so on. So back in May 2017
Chairperson there was a project that was happening at National Treasury. That
project was called IFMS, Integrated Financial Management System, which is a

20

system meant to integrate HR finance and all that, and all that. It is a project that
was conceived way back in 2005 but it started to be rolled out from 2009 a R4,3
billion project. That project Chairperson allow me to characterise it as a VBS cousin
– cousin of VBS that project.
You are sitting here Chairperson with – and I will go through some of the
findings of the internal audit in terms of what happened in that project. Total atrocity.

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You will not believe Chairperson as I take you through that you could find such a
malfeasance, I heard this new word here mentioned a lot. You will be surprised
Chairperson the malfeasance that is embedded at National Treasury that the New
Age reported on, that ANN7 reported on, all of that which made these publications
very unpopular with everybody that was part of this white collar corporate capture of
the State. Now I take you through Chairperson to – by way of example if you go to
Exhibit 6. Exhibit 6 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Page 241 to 246. Have you got it Chairperson?
10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think I have got it.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: This was a meeting of SCOPA, a recent meeting of
SCOPA which was reflecting on the things that happened in this period of this IFMS.
Now there is a lot written here Chairperson. There is only one important sentence.
CHAIRPERSON: The document which is marked, which is at page 241 maybe we
should not say exhibit whatever because that might confuse the reader of the
transcript with other exhibits, but it is at 241 at Exhibit M1 it is written Parliamentary
Monitoring Group or PMG, Parliamentary Monitoring Group.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes that is the one.
CHAIRPERSON: And it says premium content from before 2017 is now available for
everyone. Integrated Financial Management Systems IFMS herein with National
Treasury, Public Accounts (SCOPA) 5 June 2018. Chairperson Mr T Ghodi (APC).
Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is the one Chairperson. I was only going to read of

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that Chairperson just one sentence. It is about six pages of this including the
minutes of SCOPA here, but I know Mr Maleka is pressed for time. I will read just
one sentence.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Where it says;
"Members noted that IFMS had cost R1,7 billion to date with nothing to
show for it."
I repeat Chairperson.
"Members noted that IFMS had cost R1,7 billion to date with nothing to
show for it."

10

Yes now that is very devastating here Chairperson coming out of
...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well I just wanted to say Mr Manyi it is important that you also get
a fair opportunity to put what you want to put before the Commission.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON: So yes Mr Maleka may have complained about time but if there is
something else in this document that you wish to highlight other than one sentence
do feel free to do so.
MR MZWANELE MANYI:
20

Okay.

Thank you very much Chairperson for your

indulgence. So Chairperson this is what SCOPA had to say. Now this was a project
of R4,3 billion. So already almost halfway through we have not got a return on our
investment. Now what is crucial here Chairperson are the findings of this internal
audit report and if you go to Exhibit Q7 on page 247 to 259 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Manyi this document is it an auditor's report or what
is it?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson it is an auditor's report.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Internal audit report.
CHAIRPERSON: And is PMG, Parliamentary Monitoring Group the name of the
auditing company or ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Okay I beg your pardon Chairperson.

That PMG

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to make sure ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: We know who the authors of the document is before we proceed.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay, okay. That PMG, that Parliamentary Monitoring
Group is just the – it is a website where Parliament records electronically its
proceedings.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: It is a Parliamentary ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Monitoring ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Entity ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes ...(intervenes).

20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson. This is what recorded what transpired.
CHAIRPERSON: And what is recorded here would have been recorded by SCOPA.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes it would have been recorded by SCOPA.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, all right, thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson. They even have names. If you go
through there is about six pages of this. They even have names of which member
said what. It is all there. Our Parliament is very transparent.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. So Chairperson everything is here. Now what was
tabled there Chairperson when we were having this discussion are the findings.
Now in terms of where are these findings? I put this Exhibit Q7 here which you will
find Chairperson on page 247 to 259 in your bundle. This is what was tabled, but I
10

summarise it on my statement Chairperson, but these are all the things that were
tabled there.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: But just so that I do not shuffle a lot of paper too much. In
my statement I summarise what is here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: What the internal audit found Chairperson is that in fact
what they found is that there were at least 54irregularities basically. 54 findings of
irregularities and those findings were categorised into two. Catastrophic and high
risk. Of the 54 findings that were there 49 of those findings were found to be

20

catastrophic. So what does that catastrophic mean? It means extreme inefficient
and ineffective operations of control. So basically on both these categories you
could not put any reliance on the controls that were put there. It was total chaos
Chairperson. Absolute, absolute chaos that they found there.
They go through that report Chairperson, I have summarised here just some
of the things that they mentioned in there. One of the findings that they make there

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Chairperson is inadequate payment procedures. So in other words you have no
purpose, no scope, no objectives defined in the payment procedures. That is what
they found. They found no budget information and no budget breakdown per year.
This is National Treasury. In other words no supporting documents to justify the line
items towards the R4,3 billion. They found no formal independent quality assurance
function in place. So basically this thing was like on auto pilot. No one says you are
on the right track, you are on the wrong track it is just free flow and all that.
Then there is an office called PMO, Project Management Office. They found
excessive expenditure there. They make an example Chairperson here that this
10

PMO was allocated R145 million for five years, but what happened there within the
first 16 months they had already spent R70 million of that. Almost 50% of that which
shows that it was, in Xhosa Chairperson we would have said (Xhosa expression) I
just do not know it in English. Expenditure not related to the IFMS project. I mean
really Chairperson how could you find such a thing at National Treasury?
Expenditure not related to the IFMS when it is us as accounting officers when I was
in government when you have a thing like this they hit you with something very
serious, they say unauthorised expenditure. You have used money for the purpose it
was not designed for. They come with a very serious thing and they say financial
misconduct and they could even criminalise you for this, but it is happening right

20

there at National Treasury.

They spent something like R4 million to pay for

something different. To pay for centralised supply database on a money that was
meant for IFMS.
The audit found that there were gaps identified within the SLA agreement,
Service Level Agreement. They found gaps which indicated, Chairperson that there
were no penalty clauses, there were no performance criteria. This is quite shocking,

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
Chairperson that such malfeasance can happen at National Treasury.
No timesheets to justify bills – hours billed. No timesheets. So in other
words you know having worked in the consultancy space you put a line item there
that you did research on this matter for three hours. You bill for three hours. These
guys they did not have to do any of that but they were billing. I then added up time –
added up amount in terms of just that one line item how much did government
spend? R73 million was actually spent if you were to total up all those timesheets
where there is no justification of hours and all that.
There were also no sign offs or approval of invoices.
10

You know,

Chairperson in government you cannot just pay. An invoice must be approved and
what that approval process entails is to check if things happened. It should go
through all the checklist.
In this case National Treasury did not have the checklist and so one just
billed and it is just approved. Internal audit also found there were duplicate payment
so I find that quite interesting as to what that is. Duplicate payment, Chairperson
talks to what I call staggered payment in my language.
So what would happen is that there would be a bill, a bill that says we are
charging you from services from the 1st of this month to the 25th of the month. But
then at the same time in that same period you will have another bill in the middle of

20

that that will say from the 10 th of this month maybe to the 1 st of the next month.
So you have an area that is overlapping right there but both those
invoices would be paid as if it is two pieces of work happening in sequence. So
actually it was a serious issue that was happening there.

Now this is just

Chairperson as it relates to payment services.
The auditors did not look at how those companies were procured. They

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
did not look at all other things. This is just on the one line item on payment of
services and this is how much atrocity they found.
I shudder to think what would have happened if they had also audited how
all these suppliers were also part of this, Chairperson. So this does not help in
terms of engendering confidence. You know you hear, Chairperson people saying
Treasury must be protected.
I am saying to myself that is very true. Treasury must be protected but
the question is from who and I would say, Chairperson this is a kind of thing that
National Treasury must be protected from but the narrative given out there is that it
10

is otherwise everything well and Chairperson I think Mr Pravin Gordhan said
something very important here that when you root out the cancer you must root out
all of it.
I agree with him and this is part of the cancer that must be rooted out,
Chairperson. I totally agree with him. We must root out all the cancer. So then what
followed so I am mentioning this, Chairperson as some of the things that have made
this media house unpopular because then there was ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying – are you saying that this is one of the issues
that the New Age published for which it might have made it unpopular in certain
circles?

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Correct, Chairperson. If you look – if you go to Exhibit Q8
it is actually there.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the page?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: On page 260.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: On page 260 is an example of what New Age would have

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
reported on this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. So that is what the headline Treasury chaos and all
that. So that is what New Age would do and then we would have Treasury people
saying we are targeting – they are saying Treasury is being targeted and all of that
when in fact the New Age was reporting the truth something based on an internal
audit report of National Treasury.
This is what the New Age was reporting on and then the response is that
National Treasury is being unfairly targeted. There is no unfair targeting. We are
10

exposing the rot that is being unearthed by the internal audit of National Treasury not
of anybody else.
National Treasury Audit is the one that did this work and this is what is
happening there. So Chairperson as I got towards the closure then this Chairperson
in my view talks to – talks to the next thing I want to talk to is the issue of the – what
then happened.
Then a forensic investigation was ordered just to cut a long story short.
There was a forensic investigation and I think ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Manyi. I did not look at the time. It helps when
counsel is standing there because then they can tell me it is time for a lunch

20

adjournment. I just realised now on my watch it is 13:11. How long still do you think
you would take?
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Right, Chairperson let us go to lunch.

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: It is better to go to lunch?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.

Page 82 of 147

I have got

26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right. We will take the lunch adjournment and we will
resume at 14:15. We adjourn.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Manyi?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: How much more time do you think you might need before you
finish? I just want to have an idea.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Half an hour.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right let us hear.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Okay. That does not include questions in between.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Unless you extend it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes no I was not counting.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: It is just you on your own.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Then, Chairperson just perhaps just to close on the
previous presentation I just asked the team here to just put that slide on. Can you

20

put it on? Just for the visual impression of those levels in context that is what was
the spend of TNA through the GCIS system.
Everybody else is in that big pie and so on. So when we were having this
discussion you see because Chairperson part of the narrative out there is that
whatever was paid on TNA was like irregular. There is no such a thing. Everything –
all processes were followed and all of that. There is nothing irregular there. So the

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
impression created that if you spend one cent you spend one cent too much. That
approach is really misguided.
So we need to just be clear that all of this is money that was – there was
value derived for that money but at the same time when people pretend as if TNA
captured GCIS is actually not true. These are the only slivers that they got there.
This is information from GCIS. So that one then Chairperson I just wanted to just
flag.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that in the bundle?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is the one that is on the statement, Chairperson.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes so I just wanted it here because I see here that the
photocopier is black and white. They do not have colour printers here.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay. No that is fine.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we done then with the slide?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes that slide is done, Chairperson. We can remove it.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Then Chairperson as I close on IFMS I would have
thought – I was really disappointed Chair. I must say this by the attitude of National

20

Treasury when I was asking for information and I say to them that I am not coming
here last minute because I am disorganised so to peak.
I am coming to them last minute because I only knew last week that there
will be further questions that I needed to ask and therefore I need more information
so I tried to appeal to them to say this is in the interest of achieving the objectives.
Can you please give me this report which I want to use as an example and they

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
threw all the red tape they can throw at me, Chairperson to say – I spoke to the
spokesperson Jabulani Skhakhane. He was saying to me no you must remember
that you must go through the process and it is a 30 day process that you must go
through in all this before we release this information and by the way, Chairperson
having had the GCIS experience because I had the same kind of attitude when you
are asking for information even 30 days later there is no guarantee that they will give
you.
They will come up with some clause that gives them the right not to give
this thing to you and then you have to appeal to the Minister like I did at GCIS but
10

this time around I could not appeal to the Minister because they have not refused.
They have simply said we are still with our processes. We cannot just give and all
that. So Chairperson I had to rely on the rules of the Commission Rule 6.1 which
allows any evidence so to speak so I used that Rule 6.1 to bring the report because I
do not want the Commission to be frustrated.
The report is right here, Chairperson and this is from the whistleblower.
This is exact as it is so we will see 30 days later what happens but the report is here
so that the work of the Commission is not frustrated by red tape. I really would have
thought that given the enthusiasm that National Treasury was on this place talking
about this thing that they would say okay quickly here but they did not. They did not

20

want to give it to me but that is the situation.
CHAIRPERSON: So the report that you are showing me is it the report from which
...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: The findings come.
CHAIRPERSON: You got that – what page was it? 230? 231?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is where the fundings were, Chair.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: The funding. Where the funding ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Not the funding the revenues for different media.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No. This report, Chairperson is the one ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: For the project from Treasury.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Project from Treasury.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the report that was ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Tabled at SCOPA.
CHAIRPERSON: That served before SCOPA.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is right, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. All right.
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

This is the report.

This is where the R1.7 billion

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: There is nothing to show for it.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: This is the detail right here. So I will leave this copy.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you are making that available?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I am making – somebody can take it here. There it is
20

right here.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. But you are not talking to it. You are just making it
available.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay I think ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I am leaving it here.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: I think the Legal Team will take it and then in due course they will
indicate what is to be made of it.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Then, Chairperson a very important point because we are
talking about the capture here and I am going to wrap up, Chairperson. It is my
contention, Chairperson actually there has never been a time when the state had not
been captured.
There has never been a time. Not only has the state been captured,
10

Chairperson even the laws have been captured and I am going to make a very quick
example.

Even the laws have been captured.

We have a very powerful and

enabling clause in the Constitution of this country, Chairperson Section 217 that talks
with the procurement. That Section, Chairperson has got three sub Sections and the
one Section talks to efficiencies you know everything about the Sections of
everybody keeps quoting but there are other two Sections that nobody bothers about
and the other two sub Sections for instance sub Section (2) says, let me just perhaps
just to revise memories it is a very quick one, Chairperson.
Procurement 217. Sub Section 1 says:
"When an organ of state in the national, provincial or local sphere of
20

government or any other institution identified in national legislation
contracts for goods and services it must do so in accordance with a
system which is fair, equitable, transparent, competitive and cost
effective."
Everybody stops there. Even PFMA stops here but the Constitution says
sub Section one which I have just read does not prevent the organs of state or

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
institutions referred to in that sub Section from influencing a procurement policy
providing for:
a) Category of preference in the location of contracts.
b) The protection or advancements of person or categories of persons
disadvantaged by unfair discrimination.
Then sub Section three says:
”National legislation must prescribe a framework within which the
policy referred to in sub Section two must be implemented.”
Now you would then think then Chairperson that here is a directive from
10

the Constitution to say there must be a national legislation to effect sub Section 2 but
the national legislation which we have in the form of a PPFA Procurement Policy
Framework Act 5 of 2000 makes reference to what the Constitution says but what it
does is something else.
So what this Act does, Chairperson and the reason I am saying this is
because in the – in this forensic investigation when Treasury was to brief out for this
job it then said it must go on a 90/10 principle. So what that means is that when they
allocate the point they must allocate the points, 90% of the points must go to the
lower price, 10% must be for historically disadvantaged considerations whether it is
BEE or whatever.

20

So what that effectively means Chairperson this is the most elegant way
to exclude black business in things because in terms of economies of scale black
business is not about to be able to compete toe to toe with the established white
corporate in this country. So when you say 90/10 you are using a legislative curtain
to shield your actual message. The actual message here is that you are looking for
the established big corporates as it were. You do not want anybody else.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
Now this is the challenge. I mean last time there was an interaction here
between the Chairperson and somebody. I think it was Mr Gordhan or somebody
about the issues of pricing. Now Chairperson it is impossible for black business to
quote on exact same price with an established company for a number of reasons.
Firstly, it is important for all of us in this country to understand the apartheid spatial
development that because of that most black businesses that are in the townships or
everywhere if they have to compete for the same opportunity for somebody in town
those people have got transport costs that they must put into the product. They
have got all kinds of things, because you stay in the township you are deemed to be
10

in a high risk area. So when you go borrow money you borrow it at prime plus three
when others here that live in town they borrow it at prime minus two. So therefore at
the end of the day including economies of scale an established corporate will always
beat you with price.
Now if you have a government policy that says I am only interested in the
lowest price it is an elegant way of saying black business do not bother taking,
participating in this. So that is how captured the laws are of this country. I then
move on Chairperson to that forensic. That forensic has been done and we await
the report and in my statement ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry let us go back to what you were talking about just now.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Of course you may be right that if the work is to be done in town
and you are based in the township and you have to compete with other competitors
who are based in town you might have a certain disadvantage in terms of costs and
so on because of you have to travel and so on and so on and other factors, but –
and that may well exclude certain black people, but of course to the extent that there

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
may be black businesses if we can call them that for convenience in town then that
disadvantage in terms of costs, transport costs for example, would not be there.
There may be others but at least that would not be there, will I be right?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Well except that Chairperson those black businesses in
town are faced with high rental costs because they do not own property, they have to
lease that property and they compete with people that own the fixed buildings. So
that is a problem. So you find that your cost items as black business in town are far
higher than your next door neighbour.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no I understand that is why I was saying there may be
10

other, other disadvantages ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay yes Chair ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: But at least the one for travelling would not be there if we are
talking about black business that is based in town.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay, yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I was just using a quick example.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: But it goes deeper this thing Chairperson, because there
is a whole lot of things because what you then do as well now that Chairperson
seems to be interested in this there is also other things like things that affect your
liquidity. As black business your suppliers expect you to pay cash here and now.
The established businesses they do not have to do this. They can pay 60 days later
and all that. Those are all the arrangements that enable them to do things in a much

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more competitive way. Now ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: No, there is obviously just no doubt that, you know, if you are
doing business as a black person and mostly you will not be on the same level in
terms of economically with your white counterpart. At least most of the time.
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Yes and the Constitution recognised that and the

Constitution said please put together a legislation that is going to cover that so that
people are protected. People are preferred, but then the legislation that we have
seeks to create, seeks to treat unequal people equally. That is what it seeks to do
Chairperson and you appear like you will be asking for favours when you are trying
10

to say but this is not fair. The playing field is not the same. The playing field is not
level yet so we cannot have a situation where we are approached as if since 1994
we just switched on the light, everything is equal. No the landscape is still very
much skewed. So we need to have an understanding of that. So Chairperson
without dealing with any specific issue the general principle that the products from
black business for them to be a bit more, to have a bit of a premium is something
that must be expected and it is something that the state which purports to be a
developmental state needs to take that as a given that will have that issue, otherwise
it really means that the black people must not be in business.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Thank you Chairperson. Then I move on then
Chairperson to then just in line, just in keeping with my statement this is the last
page Chairperson of my statement just to say that another company was appointed
and it was meant to have submitted the report and on that day I do not know what
happened, but bottom line ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Are you still within Treasury?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes Chairperson. Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I am just rounding off Chairperson. Bottom line is that as
things stand right now I saw a Tweet, you know, the Chairperson of SCOPA is very
active on Twitter so he keeps live updates. Although the first expectation was that
on the 20 th of November there would be that report but things happened between
that company and National Treasury so the report did not happen, but on the 22 nd of
November I think last week Thursday then that report was given raw as it is. I am
sure National Treasury will still comment on it, but that report is there. I think it will
10

be interesting to see what those auditors, what that forensic audit has unearthed
there on that.
So that wraps up that one then Chairperson just as an example of the
kinds of things that made TNA and ANN7 unpopular because these are the things
they cut both way. It really means that National Treasury must think that we are
attacking them as it were when in fact we want to do what Mr Pravin Gordhan said
that we must root out the cancer wherever it is there. So root out all the cancer. So
that is really what we thought we were doing there Chairperson. So I move on
Chairperson this is another critical story about the white collar capture of the state.
This is classic what I am going to describe to Chairperson now. This is classic stuff

20

that to try and find illegality and unlawfulness in this thing, the struggle, is elegantly
done.

It starts off somewhere and this is what we reported on.

It starts off

somewhere in November 2006 with a very innocent memo which I put as Exhibit 9
on pages 261 to 271.
So this memo from SARS Chairperson is a very interesting memo. This
memo seeks to sanitise the appointment of a particular service provider at SARS in

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2006. So in a nutshell what happens here is that the bid, this company gets brought
in not through open tender process and some argument gets made about emergency
and all that and therefore regulation 16(a)(6.4) gets invoked which talks to it is not
practical to go on an open tender.
So this company gets appointed and part of the reason used is that it is
cheap when others were quoting R300-something million or R400 million this
particular company was saying they can do this thing for R100 million. So then it
sort of like make sense okay R100 million and we need this thing here now and all of
this let us just get on and get this company on board. So, and the person that
10

makes recommendation, part of the officials of SARS that makes the
recommendation instead of having a bid evaluation or a Bid Adjudication Committee
even for the handful that were selected the person says in my opinion I think we
should invite this one, this one, this one. So the opinion counted instead of a proper
committee that is supposed to do this. So one man decides that in my opinion we
must do – we must only look at this one, this one, this one. So and the first one said
I am not interested. The other one said about R400 million or something and this
one said R100 million and said okay, this is our horse, we take this one.
Now the point here Chairperson is that what has since happened since
the installation of this company and I am deliberately leaving names out because I

20

am here to deal with the principle not to lambaste people. I am here to deal with the
principle but all the details are here Chairperson. If the Commission wants names
mentioned I will take direction from the Commission but I am leaving them
deliberately. The names are here. This company starts off at a R100 million and
then what then happens since then to date this company has been getting its
participation renewed internally no processes involved.

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By 2016 already this company was racking in a billion Rand. This is the
one that started subtlety at one million and all processes to make it in terms of the
Constitution, in terms of PFMA, cost effectiveness, openness and transparency and
all that none of that. Internally this thing would get renewed, renewed, renewed. So
what you have now I think now if you look at the IT bill of SARS I am told it is sitting
at something like R8 billion, but this company is probably 1,5 or something of that. I
have not got that number, the fresh number as it is, but it is in that astronomical
figure as things stand right now. So what does this mean Chairperson? Now what
we have this company plays a very important role in that it is involved in e-filing and
10

all that. So now if you are to say this company must go on an open bid now and
stop everything maybe somebody else a very solid argument is going to be made
about how this is going to disrupt the collection of taxes and therefore you have a
company that is there, that came in through ways that are not so transparent but
now this company you cannot dislodge it as things stand. It is almost a real risk now
to dislodge this company and that is what I call white collar corporate capture of the
state, because you then begin to understand Chairperson why even PFMA, PFMA it
incentivises service providers that have got sort of government experience.
So what you find with PFMA is that if you are a new player PFMA is not
friendly to you. PFMA is friendly to somebody who has got a foot in the door. So

20

even if I was to have a state of the art IT company today, but my chances of bidding
against this particular company at SARS are zero because this company is going to
argue that they have already got the territory, everything is smooth, to take them out
will cause so much disruption. Someone is going to work out how much confidence
will be lost in the system and systemic risk and all of those things will be argued.
So you now have a company that is going to be entrenched like that,

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Chairperson. So that is the situation that you find there, Chairperson. So this is the
things that TNA and ANN7 report on and obviously we can see it cuts both ways.
Private sector does not like this that we keep exposing some shenanigans that they
do in collaboration with some of these state departments as it were. So that is it
Chairperson. I mean even as we speak now I am told that this company is now
being used to provide services on other departments.
So what we have now we have SARS as almost an agent so other
companies do not have to go bidding. They ask SARS that we know we have got a
good IT system. So SARS has now become some kind of a broker. They now
10

service other departments and the other departments paying to SARS, SARS pays
into this company. That is the network that is in place so that for me, Chairperson is
the blueprint of white collar corporate capture of the state that really we need to be
dealing with and by the way Chairperson some of us when we make these points
people think we are deflecting from Guptas.
No. If Guptas, we must put this very clear Chairperson, if Guptas are
found to have done anything untoward, anything that is wrong the full wrath of the
law must be – they must suffer the full wrath of the law but the law must not have
eyes.
The law must be blind. The law must apply to all malfeasance wherever it

20

rears its ugly head. We cannot have – we cannot turn a blind eye on some of these
things and also Chairperson the reason I am raising this I am not digging up stuff of
pre 1994.
This is current stuff as we are sitting now that IMFS, Chairperson is going
to go this route. Once that system is embedded in the state no other service
provider will be able to ever walk in there. Those that are there through the IMFS

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have embedded themselves for lifetime.
That is how it is going to be. So that is the white collar corporate capture
that I am talking about.

So that concludes my issues around why TNA was

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Liquidated?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chairperson, was hated by everybody. So the rest of
the liquidation thing is well covered in the affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON: In the questions.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Mr Maleka will ask whatever he wants to ask. I am not
10

going to go through that but then I have got two other questions – issues quickly
Chairperson which are also emanating from the questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: The one thing, Chairperson is the issue around the
Standard Bank affidavit which has been put here as to that talks to what was I doing
basically at the IMC ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: At the meeting between one or other bank.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Or banks at a meeting that seems to have been Chaired by
Minister Zwane.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, that one.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: So Chairperson I have put an affidavit to this matter and
in the affidavit I point out that I actually attended the meeting at the directive/request
of the Minister. I was the Advisor to the Minister when this was happening, part time
Advisor at that.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
I was an Advisor to the Minister so I went there as an Advisor. So the
question is I must relate what transpired in that meeting. I think that request,
Chairperson borders on being unlawful in this way. You see Chairperson if you –
there are two groups of people in a meeting.
There are meeting participants. There are people that are in attendance.
If I go to a board meeting in the board meeting you could have the board members.
If they say the quorum of the board meeting is five people and you have brought –
you have invited all other departmental people there can be 20 in that meeting.
If the quorum is five board members and you have got two board
10

members notwithstanding that you have got 20 attendees that meeting is not correct.
That meeting will not happen. So to then ask an attendee of a meeting to relate
what happened in the meeting is just not making sense because also what you say
carries nothing, carries no weight because first and foremost I am not a
spokesperson of the IMC.
So I have no mandate to be dealing with that. If the Commission is
interested what really happened there the Commission and Chairperson who is
known and the Chairperson was reporting to Cabinet. In fact what I have done there
Chairperson in support and just to show this point on Exhibit 11 page 273 to 274 I
have shown – I have brought here a Cabinet statement. I only have got two pages.

20

I have highlighted 4.7 of these two pages.
In that it says on 4.7 of those two pages on 273 to 274 it says:
"Cabinet received a report from the Ministers of Mineral Resources,
Labour and Finance following their constructive engagement with
stakeholders in the banking industry. The outcome of this report will
be communicated in due course."

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The only reason I am raising this Chairperson is that it shows that there
was a process that was flowing and if anybody is really interested they are the
people that can be approached as Cabinet. You know Chairperson I also used to sit
– I used not to sit – I used to attend Cabinet meetings but the fact that I attend
Cabinet meetings that does not give me a right to then explain to people what
happened in Cabinet.
CHAIRPERSON: Well not really Mr Manyi. If you were present in an office or at a
room where something was said or was done whether you were there officially or
unofficially, whether you had a right to be there or not have a right to be there as
10

long as you witnessed something, you saw something or you heard something being
said you can be asked to say what did you see, what did you hear. What happened
while you were present?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: So the question of whether you are authorised or not might be
another question but simply from the point of view of saying you were present you
saw something or you must have seen something, you must have heard something
tell us what you heard, tell us what you saw. That is legitimate.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: I am only ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: So I am just mentioning that point.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: It may be that based on what you are saying maybe I can leave it
to Mr Maleka to deal with it if he wants to ask you questions about it but I thought I
must just clarify that part yes.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Okay, no Chairperson I think because it also
happened, I do not know a while ago. All I can remember it was a decorum of the
meeting. The meeting had a very good decorum. There was no screaming at
anybody and the meeting was a proper meeting, exchange of views and whatever.
Discussion happened. The details are contained in the minutes of the
meeting which the secretariat can provide I think if asked.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, no thank you. You are done?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is all.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr Maleka?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: And then the last point, Chairperson ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Then the last point part of the documents I was given
what is commonly referred to as the Gupta leaks and so on. Now Chairperson I just
needed to understand something on this thing. I must first be clarified in this.
Except for the one email that is there – except for the one email in January 2011
where there was an invite but that invite in the list of the things that was given there
is a spreadsheet of people that were invited. This was an invite to the India versus
South Africa or of India and South Africa friendship of 150 years that was happening
at KZN.

20

But in that spreadsheet I was invited in my capacity as BMF not as
President of the BMF not as government and so on. The rest of the other emails that
are there are emails when I was not in the public service. I was not in GCIS and so
on. I was not in government. Now I am perplexed Chairperson as to what is actually
going on here. Here am I a business person, a private sector person sending emails
or receiving emails or whatever with another private sector person.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
No government involvement is mentioned there, absolutely nothing. It is
just justified to characterise it briefly Chairperson it would be an email talking about
room allocation. I do not even know the people that were dealing with those rooms.
Some operational matter about no let us arrange rooms for them but if I look at the
timing and everything it was during the wedding. I have always been on public,
Chairperson to say I attended the Gupta wedding.
It was never hidden that point. I see – I saw nothing wrong then. I see
nothing wrong today and so on. If they were to invite me tomorrow to another
wedding I would still go and so on. So for me there is no issue attending a wedding
10

and then if it is not a wedding then it would be maybe a CV that can be linked to
have come from me and so on but even that Chairperson we do this all the time in
the private space to send CV's of people around helping people to look for jobs and
so on.
I have not understood why is this – what is the context of this but this is
what Mr Maleka has been explaining and as I close I just want to say something but
as I close Chair I also wanted because the impression that I have is that this
Commission is supposed to be impartial, fair and make sure that everybody is
treated equally.
Now one of the things I just found very strange is that in these leaks

20

Chairperson one thing that is not shown is what I have. Like for instance this picture
here it is in the exhibit ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Is it in the bundle here? There is a bundle here.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think it must be in the bundle there, Chairperson. Did
you find it there? Yes it is in the bundle there, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: This picture it might – maybe somebody ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: What page is it?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Can I just ask the Registrar to take it to the Chair there?
CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe if they tell me the page ...(intervenes).
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, we have put it in a bundle as page 275.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it will still be put in the bundle or it is?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: No it is already in the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay 275?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Now this picture Chairperson as you are going through it
has got Advocate Thuli Madonsela with the Guptas. Now this ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: This picture is not featured in the emails that are featured.
Maybe I am trying to understand the fairness of this process here Chairperson that
here am I a former government person and I am being followed about where I send
emails and I do not send emails.
Advocate Thuli Madonsela would have been sent an email to invite her to
this thing. But I am not understanding that she is here to explain as to why did you

20

get an email from the Guptas but everybody else must answer this Chairperson.
Where is the levelling of the playing field from this Commission?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Manyi. I understand you are done and Mr Maleka
is now free to ask questions. He has heard you what you have said.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes okay.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi before I get to the details of your evidence
in the written statements many as they are that you have now submitted to the
Commission and also your oral expansion of that evidence from this morning can I
ask you this?
As you sit here today in the witness box do you accept that members of
the Gupta family and the businesses that they own have been seriously implicated
by way of credible evidence led before the Chairperson up to this point in serious
malfeasance of State Capture?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Well Chairperson my approach in the issues affecting
10

anyone in this country is that South Africa is a Constitutional democracy. South
Africa is a rule of law country. I mean I was astounded when Ms Barbara Hogan
said to me I was at Eskom when I was not at Eskom as an example, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Manyi it will be helpful if you start by just answering the
question. For example he is asking – Mr Maleka is asking whether as you sit there
you accept – whether you accept that in evidence led before this Commission the
Guptas – Gupta family has been seriously implicated in corruption so one answer
might be no, I do not accept that.
Another answer might be yes I accept that but maybe you might want to
contextualise your acceptance or your rejection of that proposition. So I am just

20

mentioning that because if you start when you answer in that way it will make it easy
to make progress.
You are not prevented from contextualising where it is necessary but it
helps if the first response goes to the question.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Well my answer is I do not know.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes and Chairperson let me just finish then, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: You see I was very hopeful Chairperson when the Estina
Project was brought before the courts in Bloemfontein. I was really hoping. I
thought that was an open/close case and so on, but when the state lost its case
there I was not sure anymore as to what is going on here and ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: And that was a civil case.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: So therefore Chairperson I do not know where this is
going to end up.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Because when the State went there it went there I think
with a lot more confidence than what I have seen here. People that I have seen
here I think Chairperson I must even if I have got to say so myself I must take the
cup in terms of producing documentary evidence of things that I am talking about
and people that have been here have been very poetic Chairperson without
producing evidence and so I just do not know if we can just implicate people purely
based on poetry.

20

People came here and they spoke, they spoke, they spoke, they spoke. I
was really hoping that they are going to do something similar to what I am doing. It
might not be the best but I have tried Chairperson to listen to your counsel when you
say people must bring evidence to corroborate. I tried to do that.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I did not find it here Chairperson so I am struggling.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: To convict people ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Based on poetry.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I just wanted to say just bear in mind that Mr Maleka did not
say – he did not ask you whether you accept that they are guilty or not. He simply
asked you whether you accept that they are seriously implicated.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think Chairperson it is important that maybe some of us
that are not in the legal profession these things get explained.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: In that there are two things for me. You can either be
mentioned or implicated. For me I draw a line. You can be mentioned, they have
been mentioned here but to be implicated for me is a step higher than being
mentioned. So to be implicated there must be corroborating evidence to say indeed
you did this. So for me that is implication. So that is what I am saying I struggled to
find evidence to corroborate the oral evidence that people were giving here.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Maleka?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi do not un-contextualise my question. I
have not asked you about proceedings involving the Gupta family relating to Estina

20

in other courts. I have asked you questions about evidence in this Commission. You
have been following the proceedings of this Commission since it began, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, in and out. I have been listening and not listening
because sometimes I would come and listen here and be very frustrated that my
whole morning is gone and I am not seeing any evidence. People are just talking
and talking and talking. So maybe out of that frustration maybe when I left they

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
produced something, but most of the times that I was here I was just seeing people
giving us theoretical perspectives on matters and all that. So I do not have, I mean
as I sit here now this is, I am speaking under oath. I sit here and now I cannot point
to any piece of evidence that anybody here put on this table, but I know a lot of lyrics
that have waxed on everything, but ...(intervenes).
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You accept that the proceedings of this Commission
are televised live and they are reported on credibly in news media both print and
television almost daily? Do you accept that that happens?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I – two things, yes I accept that happens, but I also think
10

the Commission must not take it for granted that we are glued on TV and reading
newspapers. For instance I do not buy newspapers just on principle, because of the
amount of distortions that they have to correct people all the time. This morning on
Twitter for instance being here I make a clear statement of reading from the internal
audit report that whatever point I was making and then you have a journalist here
twisting that and saying that was a SCOPA observation or something and yet I was
very clear that these were the findings of the internal audit report. So I have lost
confidence in the newspapers. I do not buy, I do not read newspapers.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes but you watched the proceedings of this TV – of
this – of the proceedings of this Commission on TV. That is why you were able to

20

see what Ms Williams said about you in your absence from this Commission but on
TV, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think it is important to contextualise that. I was written a
letter, I was told that on the 31 st of August she is going to be here. So I had a vested
interest in that particular case, yes, but I do not get letters from the Commission
every day to listen to everybody.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi you know, do you not, that Mr Maseko
came to tell the Chairperson about the extent of unlawful instructions imposed upon
him by a member of the Gupta family, you know that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Maseko came here and testified almost or the
whole day about that evidence. Do you have reason to doubt what he told the
Chairperson?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Do I have reason to doubt?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: What Mr Maseko told the Chairperson about the true
10

nature of the instruction given to him or imposed upon him by a member of the
Gupta family?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I have reason to doubt.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Do you have reason to doubt what then Deputy
Minister Jonas told the Chairperson about the offer that was made to him by a
member of the Gupta family?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Let me start with the first one. I will come to that one.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Please answer the second question because you
have answered the first. You can explain the second question later on.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I have reason to doubt.

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Minister Nene then Minister of Finance came here to
tell the Chairperson a number of things including the way he was dismissed. Do you
have reason to doubt what he told the Chairperson in that regard?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I did not listen to Mr Nene's one, but I listened to these
two.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You did not listen to the evidence of Minister Nene.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Did you follow the evidence of Minister Gordhan?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is where I struggled actually. I came very excited. I
booked off the whole day to listen to Minister Gordhan because I thought because he
was the Minister of Finance he is going to have tangible information, paper trail and
all that. I struggled, I sat here and I listened and I listened and I lost concentration to
be honest.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: But you heard what he said to the Chairperson even
though you may have lost concentration.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think by definition it means if you have lost concentration
you cannot hear as effective.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Do you have reason ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maleka I am sorry. Well for what it is worth Mr Manyi let me
mention that if I recall correctly Mr Gordhan like I think a number of people who were
at National Treasury at some stage have indicated and I think he also indicated that
he has other matters in regard to which he wanted to give evidence, but he was
advised by the Commission's Legal Team that that would need to come later
because at this stage the Commission is dealing with certain specific terms of
reference. So I just want to mention that he might not be done ...(intervenes).

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: In terms of things that he wants to cover.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay Chair thank you for that Chair. I will listen when he
does that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi you heard the evidence of Mr Fuzile?

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MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes partly.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You heard that part of his evidence when he told the
Chairperson about what Mr Godongwana said to him ...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: About Mr?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Godongwana.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: About the phone call or something?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I heard that part.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You heard that evidence?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes. Do you have any reason to doubt what he said
to the Chairperson as you sit here today?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Well yes I do.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Just explain to me why?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Because I would have thought, you see, I could start from
the beginning the three people that I say I have reason to doubt so that it is clear.
For instance let us start with Mr Maseko. He said the President said (African
language phrase) Gupta. Now in other words and the Chairperson was very clear to
explain that statement bullet by bullet what it means that help these Gupta brothers

20

so to speak. Now I was a DG myself. So Ministers because they are public reps
they are the face of the department. They are the chief face of the department. So
people interface with Ministers, people interface with the President because these
are the people that go on the ballot box.
So people go to them naturally to say I need this, I need that and the
Presidents and the Ministers do not have the apparatus. The only thing they can

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point to is to the DG and the DG must then point the people to processes that must
be followed and all that. I mean if Mr Maseko had said that the President said to him
I do not care about what processes that must be followed and all that. I did not hear
him saying this. He just said help. So that would have been said to me by a number
of people or Ministers to say help these people and we would call the people in, you
explain to them how the process works, that is helping the people. So that is what –
that is my understanding, but the characterisation of that request was a
characterisation that could lead to only one and one conclusion only that the
President was sort of getting him to do something that was unlawful. So that is why I
10

do not, I have doubts about the rest of everything else.
Mr Jonas for instance he makes a claim that he makes and the next thing he
is not even clear who actually did this. At one point he says it is Mr Ajay Gupta, then
he is not clear, then somebody else, then I am not sure if what is this thing and so on
and by the way part of the disturbing thing Chairperson which is in the public domain
is that they were in some hotel and then they drove with Duduzane. I am saying to
myself why does the Deputy Minister leave his bodyguards and everybody and drive
with this young chap on a car to some place that he said he is not even familiar with
this place.
So all those kinds of things they just leave you wonder as to what exactly

20

was at play here. So things like that Chairperson for me they just are things that I
just do not understand. So I cannot vouch for people that have got those kinds of
what I think are gaps in their depositions.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes. Mr Manyi you indicated earlier on that TNA lost
its government business because it was punished for revealing what you call white
collar corporate capture of the state. Did I understand your evidence to be correct

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...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes ...(intervenes).
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: When I characterise it that way?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I was punished for that.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes. When in your view did this punishment begin?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: This punishment started I think around 2017. In fact as I
come into TNA you will see that it is in my affidavit that I came into a loss making
conversation. It was already bleeding. This thing was bleeding something like
R5 million per month roughly and I thought I was going to stem the tide and my
10

biggest preoccupation with this Chairperson was the big thing for me was to save
jobs. That stable had employed 500 people and I thought if I replace the Guptas
there I can save those 500 jobs, but it was not to be. As we sit here and now 500
people are without a job and something in my view that could have been prevented.
So it is a very sad state of affairs.
If somebody had a problem with a Manyi or the Guptas that should have
been dealt with but the business should not have been undermined which was
providing an alternative view in the media space which was providing employment to
a whole lot of young people mainly black. So I really think that was a tragedy
Chairperson to have lost that business.

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: I thought that you told the Chairperson that the
reporting slant of TNA from the beginning was not to behave like an enemy of the
state but also to slant reporting in a manner that reflects positive elements of state
activity and that is why you liked it, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. Yes, so Chairperson I am happy you raised this
because this thing has got dates. When we did the IFMS report this happened

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around May/June 2017 as it were. This is when the height of hatred began actually
around that time around May 2017, because the system works in collaboration
Chairperson you then have a situation where the whole business model which Mr
Maleka wanted to – is alluding to in his questions as to what is a business model, the
business model was both private and government. So the private sector people they
are very – they hunt like a pack Chairperson. You mess up with one you have
messed up with all of them. So when they saw how we report on this, but because
they know some of them are doing these things elsewhere so they say now these
people are not good because they are the people that are exposing our secrets. So
10

let us shut them down and so on.
So that started to – and in fact they create – what then happened
Chairperson they create such a frenzy around the New Age, such a stigma because
then there is a whole cabal of four big media companies that inform the narrative of
this. So they paint this narrative, the stigmatise TNA such that even Ministers get
harassed in Parliament how much money do you spend with TNA? Now Ministers,
members of Parliament even at a Provincial level were beginning to be
uncomfortable now because of this because you have got the DA on that side and
that is also anti some of the transformation messages that this media house
represents. So therefore because they have created this monster called the Guptas

20

they have created this monster. So they want to know who is dealing with this
monster. Now if this was such a monster Chairperson the question is why is it that
National Treasury still had it in its systems, because really if this was such a rogue
activity by this public – this house it should have even qualified to have been on the
Treasury system and all that, because it is something that is doing things that are
wrong, but because at a factual level there was no substance to all this. This was all

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just a media hype designed to kill an alternative view, designed to entrench a
mainstream narrative. This is what they did.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chairperson can I place on record that my questions
are fairly straightforward. They elicit a yes or no answer and they do not require this
longwinded explanation which I did not call for.
CHAIRPERSON: Try the best that you can Mr Manyi to answer the questions
directly, but when I say that I am not saying necessarily that you cannot
contextualise, but just try your best.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Chairperson I think it is an unfair request this way. Let me
10

give an example. It is an unfair request because let me give an example. One of
the questions given here is where you interviewed? Now if the answer is yes or no
then I am going to say no I was not interviewed then media goes out there with the
headline Manyi got the job without an interview when in fact the truth of the matter is
that the interview issue does not arise because I was transferred. So a yes and no
answer can be very misleading.
CHAIRPERSON: No I understand what you are saying Mr Manyi. I understand
what you are saying, but if we were to answer on the basis of all the erroneous
things that the media is going to do we would be here for a very long time. So what I
am saying is I acknowledge that there may be questions where legitimately you

20

might wish to say more than yes or no. That is accepted but there may be others
where maybe the explanation might be too long so let us take it each on its merits.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes it is a general thing.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying say yes or no all the time. Just exercise your

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judgment and let us see how it goes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Yes but at the same time, Chair there are loaded

questions. I think let us just be alive to that. Sometimes ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: No, you must feel free if you wish to say something. You can
indicate to me if you want to add more.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: The idea is not to have a situation where your evidence is not
fairly portrayed.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Or fairly given but it is to strike a balance.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay.
CHAIRPERSON: Between taking too long and giving an answer that you are not
happy with or it is too short.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay. Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr Maleka.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Thank you, Chair and Chair can I just explore the last
question on Mr Manyi's liking for the New Age media newspaper and his dislike for
the so called mainstream media with your permission. You see Mr Manyi, you have
now told the Chairperson that the reason you regarded the mainstream media as a

20

cabal included the very fact that they were critical of the state in their reporting,
correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I beg, you disappeared there. They were what in their
reporting?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: They were critical in their report about state activity
and that is the reason why you did not like the slant of being almost always critical

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against government.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Is that in term so the mainstream?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No. That was just 10% of the issue. The rest of the issue
with the mainstream media is that most of the time they get things wrong. They get
things wrong most of the time. So one could not – one cannot place reliance
Chairperson on what you see in the media. It is wrong all the time. Most of the time
it is wrong.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: For that part of 10% you are talking about they were
10

critical of the state, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I do not know what you are talking about.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Well I am just repeating what you told the

Chairperson.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: You are saying critical mistakes?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: For that 10% of the reasons why you did not like the
cabal.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: It is because they were critical of the state in their
reporting.
20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry. I just want to make sure I understand that. Mr Maleka
is your question to Mr Manyi this? That one of the reasons or the reason why he did
not like mainstream media is because mainstream media is critical of the state?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: In the way they reported on the state activity.
CHAIRPERSON: You mean the way they reported on state matters?

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ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and the answer Mr Manyi?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: The answer, Chairperson is that no, the issue was not
because they were critical of the state. The issue was not they were getting their
facts right. The state is always open to criticism but the issue is that when they
criticise they criticise using wrong information. That is the problem. That is what we
do not like about it.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Okay in other words what you are saying is they were not
doing their homework properly?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You see Mr Manyi a media criticism of the state and
what state actors are doing is nothing new. When TNA was criticising the state on
your version it was revealing problems about National Treasury about this what you
call wastage of R1.7 billion. That was nothing new. The media has always done
that.
CHAIRPERSON: But are you not Mr Manyi proceeding – Mr Maleka proceeding
from the point that it is the criticism that you say he had a problem with whereas he
has made it clear that his problem with mainstream media was not the criticism but it

20

was them getting their facts wrong.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes. Chair, I understood him to say that there are
many reasons. One of them relates to what he calls 10% of the critical reporting by
the mainstream media of state activity.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can clarify Mr Manyi.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes. No, here is the issue, Chairperson. The IFM one is

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an example. The story was broken by our group. It was broken by TNA and ANN7
and the length and not only did the story get broken on hearsay and whatever. It
was broken and broadcasted on using tangible information from this same audit
report I just dropped off here and what would happen in the media space,
Chairperson?
When is others – when it is others when they do their thing whatever they
do there is some kind of collaboration of sorts then you would just find that all the
newspapers are pretty much saying the same thing and what have you. So we were
not part of that part. So what then – what that does is that it then diminishes the
10

impact of what you are trying to say because they do not want to report what we
reported on not that we needed to be done that way but then what they then do
when they do their own reporting then they just find ways sometimes to if they like a
particular department then they will find ways to find a positive spin of things.
So with us what we were doing – what The New Age and ANN7 was doing
was to try and report things very sharply whether it is right or wrong. When it is right
we really heap praises on it. When it is wrong we do what we do and we do not try
to be the spokesperson of various departments.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, may I clarify the question by being factual?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: I think it might help all of us. Mr Manyi can you go to
Exhibit M1.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Are you at Exhibit M1?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes I have got.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Can you please go to page 231?

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MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You have explained to the Chairperson that Exhibit –
sorry page 231 reflects the total ad spend by GCIS to all the media competitors.
Correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, that is correct.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And you have indicated that the total ad spend for
that year 2011 to 2012 was R192 million odd, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No not correct. 194 I indicated.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: 194?
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Right let us work with the figure and you have
indicated that on that figure TNA for that year and that year alone ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Maleka. I think I just need to say something to Mr
Manyi relating to what he was discussing earlier on for what it is worth.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyi you were mentioning at least in part that the mainstream
media was getting certain facts or was getting facts wrong or that they were not
doing their homework and you said something about what The New Age was doing –
how it was getting things.

20

I think I must just mention to you that well The New Age is not there
anymore now as I understand the position but after my appointment as Deputy Chief
Justice they asked for an interview with me which I granted and following that
interview they published an article in which I had – in regard to which I had lots of
complaints.
This was raised with them and it was indicated to them that a lot of things

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that they said in that article had simply not been part of the interview and they were
asked – they had indicated the journalist who attended had indicated – promised to
send the article before it was published so that I could have a look at it. It was
published without being sent to me for me to have a look at it first and then when I
saw it I found that it had a lot of things that were never part of the interview and this
was pointed out to them.
Fortunately Mr Nathi Ncube of the Office of the Chief Justice was present
throughout the interview and had actually recorded everything.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So they refused to correct the article and apologise and they were
informed that what had been discussed at the interview had been recorded, and that
there was a record, so in the light of this would they please correct this. I think at
some stage there was an indication they would correct it or they may have
undertaken to, but ultimately they refused, despite the fact that they were told that
there was a recording and subsequently I think something was sent to various media
to indicate that there was something – there were a lot of things that were incorrect
in the article published by the New Age about me arising out of that interview, so for
what it’s worth I thought I must just mention that there is that incident that occurred
between me and them.

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Ja, well firstly I must say I rest my case, thank you
Chairperson for that corroboration, but again if you have people that despite you
showing them the real transcript of the report then they refuse to correct what they
are saying. Why should we believe them when they say New Age has got things
wrong? So it means they are not trustworthy as people. I don’t think ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: No in fact what was very strange to me was the fact that they

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didn’t show interest to show can we listen to the recording. One would have thought
that they would say oh you’ve got a recording, let’s listen to it because maybe we’ve
got certain things wrong by mistake, they didn’t want to even listen to that, by the
refused to withdraw, and apologise and correct.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

That’s correct, that’s what was objected to

Chairperson, and then when we raised these things then it was seen as being
unreasonable. For instance on that one as recently as now Chairperson you see this
one, The Star they say Guptas sets up for sale and so on and they put my face
there, and all that, now why – what is my face doing on Gupta assets and the only
10

reason they’re doing this is deliberate because they have already characterised
Gupta’s as monsters and what have you, so now because they want to deal with me
so in order to deal with me they must mirror me into this thing so that what – I
become sort of a proxy for all the things that the Guptas stand for, then I must suffer
all of that. This is the kind of a South Africa we have, very unfair.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, no I thought I must just mention that there was that

experience for what it’s worth ja, thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair thank you very much, I am not going to explore
that issue further but my understanding of self-regulation of the media in this country
is that there are always channels available to lodge complaints, where there has
20

been factually inaccurate or unfair reporting and there is always a code to which
most of the major media houses subscribe to, there are enquiries constituted by the
Press Ombud whose decision would be subject to appeal by the Appeals Committee
of the relevant self-regulator and that explains why in a democratic country we all
have to be men and women of the last.
But where I was Chair is at page 234 ...(intervenes).

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MR MZWANELE MANYI: Can I interject Chair?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Can I just quickly interject to say that I know the things
that he is talking about but those things don’t work as well as perhaps Mr Maleka
think they do. An example is what the Chair has just said, that is an example, the
very – I mean if you can’t trust a Judge to say here – who is anybody else, if you
can’t say a Judge says, and the Judge is even in a position of authority, a Judge is
saying here is a recording, at least listen to this and compare it with what you have
written. Same thing Chairperson the front page of the Sunday Times would have a
10

picture of some palace in Dubai, and they say it’s President Zuma’s and then the
next time that same palace has got a different owner and they have never gone back
to apologise to President Zuma that the palace that they said he owns is actually not
true ja and so on, but they carry on like this and they get away with it because
they’ve got the monopoly of the space. This is the challenge that we are facing.
CHAIRPERSON: Well we have to get back to what is relevant but it’s difficult to –
for me not to say this, that about two Sundays, maybe three Sundays back, one of
the Sunday papers had an article relating to the leaks that have been happening and
on the front page it said somebody was being fingered as the culprit for the leaks,
and when you read the article well it said it was Mr Nombembe, it interviewed certain

20

people from which it got the information and it seems that from when you read the
article it was the reason why – the reason given why it was said it was Nombembe
was that it was said he was close to Mr Gordhan – Minister Gordhan, and that he
wanted Mr Gordhan to help him to get appointed as National Director of Public
Prosecutions. Now you would expected that the – this is I think this was the Sunday
Independent, you would have expected that the journalist would check for example

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what are the requirements for somebody to be the National Director of Public
Prosecutions before writing that story.
In terms of the relevant Act you must have a legal qualification, you must
be able to practice as a lawyer in all the Courts in this country, Mr Nombembe
doesn’t have a legal qualification and if I’m not mistaken already by that time there
was a shortlist of people who were to be interviewed for the position of National
Director of Public Prosecutions so you ask yourself what kind of journalism is that,
people come and make an accusation against somebody you have to go to ask the
question why are you saying that, why are you accusing him, what’s the basis and if
10

they give you the basis as journalist you expect that the journalist would examine the
basis to see whether it makes sense.
Somebody says an Auditor wants to be Head of the NPA, and the
journalist doesn’t say but hang on you need to be a lawyer to be Head of the NPA,
they don’t say that, they just write the story. So ja, okay, alright, I think let’s check
that.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You know Chairperson this is where I was going to.
You have indicated two critical instances of media reporting which was not factually
accurate, but the point is this why would one newspaper lose government business
because of that and the rest of the media who are equally guilty on that assumption

20

of factual inaccurate reporting don’t go out of business. Perhaps Mr Manyi would
help us there.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Ja, Chairperson I think the reason I brought this list here so
people can see how much is spent. I want to challenge let’s say this house Tiso
Blackstar I don’t know how much, how many millions they are getting now but in
2012/13 they got like R28 million.

I want to challenge Tiso Blackstar to say

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Government must not do business with them, just three months Chairperson, I
guarantee you this place will shut down, just three months, it will shut down. So
what Mr Maleka is saying I don’t think he understands the impact of the slice of
Government in anything, even this house which has got both business from
government and elsewhere but at least from GCIS and in fact that R28 million that
they got in 2012 as Tiso Blackstar is just the one part, the rest of other Government
Departments that do direct business with them the figure could easily be R100
million. Let Government not give them that amount just three months Chairperson I
guarantee you this will shut down.
10

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi I think I do understand and it is something
that I am going to converse with you at length tomorrow, because on your
...(intervenes).
MR ZWENELE MANYI: You said here tomorrow?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Oh are you not here tomorrow?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: No, no I thought we were going to finish today.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair I will be guided by you.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if he was never told about tomorrow Mr Manyi is entitled to
think we would finish today depending, but let’s go on and see how far we get.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, Chair I have not even started with the essential

20

details that he has given this morning, I have not even gone to this statement. I’m
just trying to understand the basic theory of his suggestion. But a mere critical
reporting against the State means that you will fall down on your belly by losing
Government business, that I don’t understand.
CHAIRPERSON: Well he is saying revenue from Government advertising is so big
in any newspaper or at least it was very big in the New Age and he is making the

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example that even with – is it Tiso Blackstar based on what he knows to be the
position, how much they are getting from Government or at least how much they
were getting from Government at a certain stage if they were not to get Government
advertising for three months even they would collapse, that’s what he is saying.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And I want to test that Chair because we were at
page 231 when we got diverted by all of these things, and we have now confirmed
that the total advertisement spend from just GCIS alone for 2011 to 2012 was R194
million for all the media houses for that year, just from one Government entity and
that is GCIS. On that approach Mr Manyi gave some explanation about how that pie
10

was divided amongst the various houses. What I wanted to test with him is what you
had already put to him about the comparisons that he has made that for instance
SABC got the biggest pie, and if I may ask for your permission to test the answers
that he has given in that regard, because the suggestion that I would like to make is
that the comparison is not well-founded.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may do that?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi are you at page 231?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Just before that Chair can I just briefly address just the intro
that he had given, because I think that intro is incorrect.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

20

MR ZWENELE MANYI: It’s incorrect in that he says just the one entity, GCIS is not
just the one entity, it’s a conduit, when you say GCIS you must see the entirety of
Government, or this part of Government.
CHAIRPERSON: Different departments bring ...(intervenes).
MR ZWENELE MANYI:

Bringing to GCIS, so you can’t have some kind of a

preoccupation that that 194 is government – is GCIS budget, GCIS has got almost

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zero budget, it’s just a conduit, so all that money is money from different
departments as it were, so that must be very clear.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Can I put my questions now?
CHAIRPERSON: You may put your questions.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Thank you. Mr Manyi are you at page 231?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: 231?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Yes.
10

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Okay, you have indicated that Ad24 for that year got
almost R18 million, correct.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: 18 yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

We now know from what you told us that Ad24 is

owned by the Naspers Group, and that that group owns a number of newspaper
publications, correct?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: The include amongst others City Press, correct.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:
20

So that if you were to test what City Press got by

way of government revenue from GCIS you will not look at the total group owned by
Naspers; you look at City Press itself for that year correct?
MR ZWENELE MANYI:

No, I think the City Press probably constitutes a part of

90% of this number, that’s the publication that we’re dealing with here. So all these
other things like they would have – whether whatever magazines they have and so
on is not the kind of publication that Government was doing. The main publication

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was City Press, so this I’m almost sure Chairperson that about 90% plus was City
Press.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Well look at what you – the figures that you produce,
say about the total revenue and by City Press from GCIS as it …(indistinct) for that
year. If you look somewhere towards the bottom of the page, and understand the
identification of the publications here is alphabetical you will see that somewhere
there is City Press reference and my reading of what City Press and by way of
revenue for that year was R199 323,30, these are the figures that you yourself
produced, correct?
10

MR ZWENELE MANYI: Ja, those are GCIS figures.
CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry Mr Maleka where are you getting the figure for City
Press?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair almost two thirds down the page, you will see
that there is A.
CHAIRPERSON: At 231?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: No, with page 231 yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, oh yes I see it, yes thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And Chair I will take you through some of the
newspapers under that stable, but the point for now is that if you take City Press

20

which of Mr Manyi’s evidence constitute almost 80 to 90% of the Ad24 Naspers
stable, for that year alone City Press received revenue of R199 000 odd, do you see
that?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And now that we know that City Press has been in a
long-established business of publication, at least by the year 2011 and 2012, we will

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look at the open source information so that we could tell the Chairperson about its
lineage up to 2011 and 2012, but for now if you take the total at revenue and by City
Press for that financial year, was almost R200 000. Compare that with what TNA
earned for that year and you will find that Chair at page 234.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: The second last entry at page 234, are you there?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And we now know from your evidence that for that
financial year on a comparative level TNA earned almost R8.7 million of Government
10

advertisement revenue from GCIS, correct?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: H’mm.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes or no?
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Chairperson there’s a context to this.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, give the context.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: I think pretty much like the Chairperson was pointing out I
think Mr Maleka is comparing apples to pears this way. City Press is a weekly
publication and the TNA was a daily publication, Monday to Friday, and TNA was not
only a national newspaper, it had its national and it also had provincial publications
on a daily basis. So to compare a day to day national newspaper with a weekender,

20

one day in a week, is not a correct comparison.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Let me suggest to you immediately that that

explanation I will demonstrate shortly that it is mistaken, but for now let’s confirm the
facts. On the facts as we have it for that financial year TNA has earned 20 times
more than City Press from Government’s advertisement business.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Can I respond to that Chair?

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CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: Now I don’t understand what Mr Maleka where is going to
Chairperson because that may be the case, what’s wrong with that if what was –
because even Ms Williams when she was here she explained the TELMA., now what
happens if this kind of things that departments were looking for required the New
Age, this is what drives where we place those papers. GCIS is not some social
development department that is seeking to spread things equally to a whole range of
newspapers, no, it’s not about that, so as to how much each newspaper eventually
got is really neither here nor there. What is important is what were in the business
10

plans, what was their campaign that the departments were putting up, and when you
put those campaigns and the …(indistinct) targeted into the TELMA system what did
the TELMA system point out.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I hear what you are saying Mr Manyi but I think what is
happening is that you understood that evidence given by certain witnesses before
this Commission in relation to GCIS and revenue you know which TNA got you
understood it in a certain way which prompted you to get this information on this
page, as to what other people were getting, and I think rightly or wrongly your first
stance, as I understand it, was to say look at what TNA was getting, look at what
everyone was getting before going into what the differences were. I think Mr Maleka

20

is starting there to say the basis of your comparison was not right first, and then
saying let’s take one paper and not look at the company, at the Group you know, and
then you say City Press, when you look at City Press comparing it with the New Age
annual revenue for that period the City Press got much less, and then in response
you make the point, and I think the point is a point that you were entitled to make, to
say well maybe we have to look at even comparing the New Age with City Press

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because the New Age was a daily newspaper, Monday to Friday, the City Press is a
weekend paper, so – but I’m simply saying that’s where this whole discussion
started from. You understood evidence given by some witnesses to be projecting a
certain image or a certain point, you sought to contradict that by using these figures.
He is now saying but the basis that you used is not right, that’s where the whole
thing is at the moment.
MR ZWENELE MANYI: And I am contesting that Chairperson because I think his
approach is very mechanical, mechanical in that he is looking at the size of the City
Press and the process is not mechanical, it’s a bit more scientific, the process is
10

more like target marketing. Now it may very well be just like I said Daily Sun will
have the biggest circulation, but does it have the kind of market that we are looking
for? Yes or no, you know, so it’s not as mechanical as the biggest gets the biggest
so to speak, the issue is at that specific point in time what was the campaign that
was being run, what were the audiences that were being targeted and etcetera, and
what did the system say. I think the only discussion we should be having on this
matter is whether despite what the system said we went and we put something
different, that’s the only credible discussion we can have on this, otherwise this is not
going to take us anywhere Chairperson because the issue at hand is that GCIS is
informed by TELMA, so if TELMA says the most appropriate and relevant

20

newspapers for this kind of a campaign is the New Age, that is the most objective
way that we can put into court.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Mr Manyi I am going to take you to TELMA and I will
show you that the new age was not even assessed on the basis of TELMA, and I will
show you that your attempt to run away from a comparison on a paper by paper
basis by suggesting that City Press was a weekend newspaper and the New Age

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was a daily publication and therefore the comparison in terms of revenue is
inappropriate that is not correct. Look at the other daily newspapers. You have told
the Chairperson as I recall your evidence, and I hope that I got it correct, at page
231, about the Daily Sun. You remember that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: H’mm.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair if you go to page 231.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I am there.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You will see that the fourth bottom entry relates to the
Daily Sun and my recollection of Mr Manyi’s evidence was that that was the
10

newspaper with the biggest daily circulation.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Look at what it earned from GCIS for that month.
Can you confirm the figures for us please?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: It’s right there.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking him to read it into the record?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, please read the figure into the record Mr Manyi for the Daily
Sun.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: R8 778.

20

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

The biggest daily newspaper of what circulation

...(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Again Chairperson if I may interrupt?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Again you see Mr Maleka is almost like becoming like
how journalists report stuff, he is now coming up with the Sun bite which totally out of

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context, he is now having – I have explained that the psychographics of the Daily
Sun although it’s got a big circulation but people that would not – I made an example
of it’s not where you would put an analysis of a particular judgment because the
market does not do that, so therefore – and I have been at pains to explain that the
actual numbers are meaningless, it’s a mechanical process. The issue is target
marketing. Who are you targeting? Where are those people that you are targeting?
Which publication is very appropriate for who you are targeting? This is what counts
in this space.
CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Manyi you are entitled to add that kind of explanation to
10

your answer, which you have done, it’s legitimate for you to say I hear what you are
saying but what about this A, B, C, D as you have said.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Thank you Chair.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Chair if I may conclude the daily newspaper

comparison by dealing with two additional daily publications, which you will get on
page 234.
CHAIRPERSON: 234 you said?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Fourth from the bottom is The Times. Now Mr Manyi
20

I take it that you know that The Times is also a daily newspaper, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: That is the?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: The Times, if you look at page 234.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I’m there.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: The answer is?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, no, the end of your question.

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CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he did not hear the end of your question, just repeat it.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Am I correct when I suggest to you that The Times is
a daily publication?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Was a daily publication, yes …(intervenes).
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: It was?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: It is shut down now.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

Yes, at that point in time, am I correct that in

2011/2012 it was a daily publication?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
10

ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And look at the amount of government advertisement
revenue it received from GCIS, it is about R183 379,20, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Chairperson, I – what is the right word? We can do this
the whole day; the answer is the same that Mr Maleka has taken a mechanical
approach and I have been explaining that things are not as mechanical as you reach
them to be. I have explained that there is a bit more sophistication in deciding where
the ad should go. There is something called target marketing and all that.
It may very well be that TELMA would have told the people otherwise, the
ones that are placing the ads, so this is an outcome of largely what TELMA does, but
it is more than that Chairperson. Not only does GCIS follow TELMA. GCIS also had

20

a transformation mandate for instance. There are many of the publications that even
on the programming of TELMA they will not feature, but GCIS is an organisation with
a strategy on media development and diversity, had a duty and a responsibility to
make sure that the support media other than – over and above mainstream media it
supported everybody including mainstream media.
It cannot be that GCIS is expected to just support all others, except those

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that do not have big names, it cannot be.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You know, Chair, Mr Manyi produced these figures in
order to persuade you that in the broader scheme of things TNA got about what?
5/6% of the total ad spent from government in 2011/2012. When we try to examine
that broad proposition on a granular basis with reference to his own figures we are
told that that is a technical exercise.
The key question is what is the point of producing these figures if you do
10

not want us to examine them closely on a more accurate analytical basis?
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you certainly are entitled to ask him questions and he is
certainly entitled to answer and to give an explanation if he has an explanation,
because the – what you have done now is to look at daily publications
…(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: To say okay with regard to the City Press you say it was a weekly
newspaper, let us look at other daily newspapers like which – other newspapers
which were daily publications in the same way as the New Age was.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.

20

CHAIRPERSON: That is where you are. He has given an answer in regard to The
Times, he has given an answer in regard to, I think …(intervenes).
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, if you look at – and I will be quick here, if you
look at three columns above The Times you will see The Star and you will see that
The Star for that total 12 months period and R97 000.
CHAIRPERSON: And then The Citizen is not too far above that.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, it is 247.
CHAIRPERSON: 247.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You have The Herold and the list goes on and on.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: So on any comparative basis and I would like to put
this conclusion to Mr Manyi for him to comment if he wants to.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Yes, put it to him.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: These are newspapers which have been in business
for quite some time and all of them, and at least those that we have looked at, earn
10

less than R200 000 per annum and TNA in its first year of business earns more than
8.5 million, correct? The first year of business?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to say something about that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Okay, yes, Chairperson, because I understand what is
wrong about that, because usually when things are new people embrace them. So
TNA brought fresh …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I missed that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: People embrace new things, so if TNA was new people
were having a first embracement of wow, for a change now here is a publication that

20

is different, that is not going to be riddled with all kinds of factual inaccuracies. I
mean even today as I showed you The Star, why did The Star have my picture on
assets that I have nothing to do with and so on.
You know, so it just shows, Chairperson, the kind of media that we have.
Now if we have something fresh, must have been welcome, and by the way,
Chairperson, as I make this point is that GCIS cannot take the blame for being

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briefed by government departments.
What Mr Maleka should be asking is who are the government
departments that did this, because GCIS, Chairperson does not have its own
budget? Let this be very clear. The only budget that GCIS has and I think Mr
Maseko explained this, is really just to pay for staff and all that. There is no – if there
is anything, probably at best be something that we would get from …(indistinct), if
other departments did not spend and so on and you are trying to make sure that
money goes into good use. That is about the only time that GCIS would do anything
creative like advertisement or something, but otherwise GCIS is a conveyor belt. It
10

carries out mandates from different government departments.
So you cannot have a situation where GCIS must now answer why did
monitoring and evaluation or why did Public Works or why did anybody like that
…(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, no, that may be so Mr Manyi, but the point as I understand
it which Mr Maleka is making to you, and allowing you an opportunity to respond to is
this, he is saying as The New Age was entering the market the first year it comes in,
there are established daily publications – newspapers which had been there for a
long time. He says when you look at the revenue that it made from GCIS, GCIS
accepting that GCIS gets money from – it’s a conduit pipe as you said, it is a conduit.

20

Accepting that he says but look at the amount of revenue, the difference between
what this newcomer was making compared to what established newspapers were
making.
He says it made in the first year more than R8 million, but newspapers
such as The Star made in the same year R97 000. The Citizen made R247 000, I
see The Herold above that made R255 000. You cannot deny, can you, that the

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difference is vast?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I think what, Chairperson, the contention of Mr Maleka
fails to appreciate is that …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: But let us start from this, do you acknowledge that the difference
is vast?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, I acknowledge that.
CHAIRPERSON: You acknowledge that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, continue.
10

MR MZWANELE MANYI: But I think it was justified. It is justified, because I suspect
that, because government was generally frustrated by this factual inaccuracies,
when a new player came it was a relief that for the first time now maybe things are
going to be reported correctly and all that. I think it was the freshness that was
brought in that got people to say, I think this is the place to go and so on.
So I think the important thing, Chairperson, in all of this is, was there
value derived from this? You see for me that is the issue and …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well, that may be so and I am going to allow you to finish, so do
not forget the point you wanted to make. I will let you make the point, but if what you
are saying – if I understand what you are saying correctly I must conclude that what

20

you are telling me is all these other newspapers were not doing their homework.
Only the New Age was doing its homework, that is why it made – it got such a lot of
revenue from government at least in the perception of government?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Chairperson, I do not want to speak …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your approach, and I am asking …(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON:

Because I need to make sure that I do not attribute to you

something that you do not mean to say.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Chairperson, there are two issues. One is the TELMA,
two is the transformation agenda of government. Government is very serious, has
always been very serious about transformation. So when – I mean as I said,
Chairperson, that government has even set up a whole subsidiary MDDA to try and
make sure that alternative media is supported. There is a whole organisation just to
focus on this, it just shows how serious the issue is.
Then you have a player that comes in line with that strategy, so
10

government then would have looked warmly towards that. I mean I have read out
here the letter by Ms Williams in 2013 when she was explaining this thing that
government had to use all available platforms. All of these other platforms were also
being used, but this one was used in line with what TELMA was saying coupled with
the transformation agenda.
If you look, Chairperson, I think at some point there are even targets of
the government spent, there was a deliberate strategy to say the 30% of spend
should go towards community media. That is a deliberate strategy. So you would
then if you look at the analysis of that and you look at the media strategy that is
being spent, you will find these kinds of what appears to be anomalies, as it were,

20

when in fact it is the execution of the developmental agenda.
If you do not do that, Chairperson, then you are paying lip service to the
transformation agenda.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, I see it is past 16:00, but can I just make one
point and in fairness ask Mr Manyi to think through it, because it is going to be
important.

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
CHAIRPERSON: No, that is fine. Before we continue can we agree whether we can
stop at 16:30? Would that be fine with you Mr Manyi?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I am easy, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, would that be fine?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: You see Mr Manyi you talk about government being
dissatisfied and government welcoming a new player, but in fairness this ad spent is
decided by GCIS through media buying over which you exercised corporate control,
10

correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Chairperson, I need to qualify this answer. I was not
personally involved in these things. There as a Chief Director doing – I was indeed
in charge of the entire GCIS. All departments reported to me, it is not just media
buying, all of them they reported to me, including the one that was doing all kinds of
irregular things. They all reported to me, Chairperson, but on a day to day I was not
personally involved.
The Chief Director Donald Dubuc was a guy and before him it was
somebody else at a Director level, but there are individuals that do this on a day to
day basis as you were to implement a strategy. So it is incorrect to try and now

20

make this a Manyi thing.
It is not a Manyi thing, it is a government strategy being implemented by
people best qualified to do it.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, let me move on. Mr Manyi you earlier on
indicated that the most objective vehicle to determine where government should
place its business for media buying is the TELMA system. Do you recall that? My

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notes says that you accredited TELMA as the most objective tool to determine where
government should place its advertising business. Do you remember that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, I said that.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And you know, do you not, that part of the TELMA
requirement is that a publication where government decides to place its business
must have an accredited audited readership and circulation figures, correct? You
shake your head up and down, what does that mean?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I thought it was an understood convention, it means yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, but the point is …(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I did not hear the whole answer?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, Chairperson, he is saying I am shaking my head, I
had nodded.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: So I said I thought nodding is a convention understood to
mean yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, no that is fine.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: But, Chair, the record does not capture nodding.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, what – well that has not been explained to Mr Manyi.
When you nod or shake your head that is not captured for purposes of the record, so

20

I think Mr Maleka simply meant to say it is not enough if you just nod, you must say
the answer. I think that is what he meant.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, he should have said so, Chairperson, but he did not
say that. He says that he does not understand.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I agree, he did not say that, ja, okay.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC:

We now agree that part of the TELMA tool of

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evaluation requires that a publication which would receive government business
must have accredited and audited readership and circulation figures. It is quite clear
on what you have told us now – up to now that TNA did not have those accredited
readership and circulation figures, correct?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, incorrect. What is correct, Chairperson is that TNA
was using audited figures, but the difference is by who? It was not using the ABC
figures which the mainstream media was using. It was using auditors to audit the
figures. That was what was happening.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: So TNA chose to use a totally different model of
10

auditing its own figures?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Correct.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: When you or Mr Dubuc assessed whether or not
GCIS should place its business with TNA you are telling the Chairperson there would
be audited figures from TNA?
MR MZWANELE MANYI:

Ja, TNA was using audited figures.

I am not

understanding the follow up question, because I did answer this question. I am not
understanding what is lacking with the answer.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to repeat your question Mr Maleka?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Remember the analysis is done by TELMA, which is a
20

template and the template would decide all things being equal which publication
should enjoy government business, it is a template. Are we agreed on that?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, we are agreed on that.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: And the template will show immediately on the spot
which publication enjoys the audited accredited circulation figures, because
newspapers would have submitted those figures, correct? It is on the template. You

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do not have to go and make an inquiry elsewhere; it is on the template.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Ja, once again, Chairperson, I think again Mr Maleka is
putting the mechanical ahead and I keep saying that the ABC figures, the circulation
figures are just a cold number with no brain, just a cold number, no thinking involved.
It is just to say how many people and all that.
Now when you are doing placements you got to use a bit of sophistication
to take into account the kind of psychographics that we are also looking at. Not just
cold numbers. So TELMA would do a bit of that, but we would have to also use a bit
of – because we have got professionals there who are not just going to take
10

everything and lap it as is. You then need to put a bit of qualitative aspects as well
that are informed by what it is that a particular department is saying should be – is
being targeted. The actual target group that is being targeted.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that the one thing good with using just figures
only, I think you called them cold figures, if you just use…(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: ABC.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you use just what how many newspapers are sold with the
circulation, you know, that has got some objectivity about it in the sense that it does
not depend on anyone's opinion, you know. You can prove or not prove what the
readership is and I must say that I am partly I do not know about some of the

20

newspaper things, but you know, the moment you go to the issues of the quality of
maybe of the articles in the newspaper, you know, then there is a certain level of
subjectivity, but if you want to just compare and say look, which one, if you just use
figures, then that is very objective.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I do not agree, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

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26 NOVEMBER 2018 – DAY 30
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I do not agree, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, explain?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I do not agree, because it is again the thing of being
mechanical. The fact that you have a particular circulation which means that you
have got a particular purported number of people who lay their hands on that
newspaper, does not address the purpose of why every person – a particular
department wants to put an add in a particular paper.
The departments they put ads not because they are bored, they put ads,
because they want to communicate a particular message to certain people to say we
10

want this message to go to this target market as it were.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I understand that. I understand that. I am not saying that
is wrong. I am not saying it is wrong. I am just saying to the extent that we may be
dealing here or we may be dealing with a situation where one is looking at why
would more adverts from the same source go to that publication and not to that
publication to the extent that one is looking at that?
If the position were that it was to be accepted that all we should look at is
the circulation the advantage of that would be that there is not much subjectivity.
You just look at who has greater publication, but I am not saying that other factors
are not important.

20

MR MZWANELE MANYI: Chairperson, let me just make this example.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: If you – I also have a car industry background, I used to
work for Toyota at one point. Now they each have one of their small cars at that time
called Toyota Tazz. Now you can sell 100 Toyota Tazz, 100 what will be paid to you
for selling 100 Toyota Tazz would be miniscule of what would be paid to somebody

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selling a Rolls Royce but both of you are selling cars.
So therefore to look at just purely how many Tazz's I produced when in
fact somebody is talking about a Rolls Royce, you are actually comparing
incomparables.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, no.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: But we are all selling cars.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you and I are on the same level there, but there is some
misunderstanding. I accept that there may be other factors that – other than the
figures that may be important. All that I was simply saying is, is it not true that
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maybe some of the factors as to how important they are, what weight should be
attached to them might involve some subjectivity compared to things like simply the
figures of circulation? Without saying necessarily – without saying the figures should
be the only factor?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, if I may add on that score. I mean we are a
country of laws.
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on Mr Maleka. Let him respond.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Ja, Chairperson, I think we are probably going to go
around in circles.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you make your point and then we move on.

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MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, okay, the point, Chairperson, is that if you would then
go and even interrogate actually how those numbers are arrived at and then you
would come to a very clear conclusion that even the reliability of these numbers that
are so called audited is another kettle of fish, because even those numbers it is not
like it is gospel. It is not even gospel even in those numbers, Chairperson.
What people do they take a whole bundle of newspapers, they go and

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give them to a company and you go to any company, Chairperson, and you will find
bundles and bundles of newspapers left at the reception area, nobody reads them,
but those newspapers would be counted as part of the circulation as it were.
So whether how many eyes actually get to them is another story. So even
those numbers are actually cooked. So you cannot sign your life on ABC numbers,
that would be irresponsible.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may continue Mr Maleka. You wanted to say
something and I stopped you.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, we are a country of laws and here the law
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requires that TELMA should be applied.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: It does not require that TELMA should be ignored. If
someone has difficulty with TELMA, you go and apply for an obtained deviation.
CHAIRPERSON: You want to put to put that to Mr Manyi?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes. Mr Manyi you accept that TELMA is part and
parcel of the law that require lawful placing of government advert business?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, there is no law that says so.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: No but, you say that TELMA is meaningless?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: I beg your pardon?

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ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Do you say that TELMA is a meaningless process in
deciding where government should place business?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: No, but you said part and parcel of the law. There is no
law, there is no law that says that you must use TELMA.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: But I thought that …(intervenes).
MR MZWANELE MANYI: This is a tool, Chairperson, that we are using to try and

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make sure that the outcome is somewhat objective. If where Mr Maleka is leaning
towards was correct it would mean that for all the community media that we have
spent on, that is irregular expenditure, which is not the case.
So you can spend, you do not need TELMA for everything. You need
TELMA for certain and others, you do not have to use TELMA necessarily, but we
use TELMA just to try and say to departments that we do here is informed by some
level of objectivity as it were, but using or not using TELMA is not in the Treasury
regulation.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Are you saying that you could ignore TELMA and go
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ahead and place government business with any publication?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: The departments, Chairperson, are doing that as we
speak. In fact GCIS is struggling. I do not know now, but I can even show you that
even now newspapers, yes, they do that – most departments they go directly. The
194 number let us look at these years that I was involved. I think more than double
that number, Chairperson was placed directly outside GCIS.
My biggest struggle was to get everybody to come into GCIS and
departments had their own relationship, they did not have TELMA. They do not have
TELMA even as we speak, but even decisive today, I am sure there could still be a
few departments that have got direct relationships. So yes, no, TELMA is not a

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regulated tool, no.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: I am not talking about other businesses; I am talking
about – and I am not talking about other departments. I am just talking about GCIS,
because this is the entity which you and I are talking about with reference to your
own figures.
MR MZWANELE MANYI: GCIS is a government department. The same rules.

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There are no different rules for GCIS. We are all governed by the same rules. Yes,
so if other government departments can place media directly without using GCIS and
TELMA and they are not red carded, you cannot red card GCIS for not using TELMA.
And as I say, Chairperson, with the community media in particular TELMA
does not even feature. So, and there is no irregularity there.
CHAIRPERSON: So you are basically saying that TELMA is really not being used
as – is not regarded as something binding?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chairperson, it is not binding. I mean sometimes
…(intervenes).
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CHAIRPERSON: By GCIS or by other departments?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chairperson, I mean you would go and tell the
department this is what the system says, but the department, some of those
departments with relationships with media directly they would insist, and GCIS did
not have veto powers, this is another problem.
GCIS does not have veto powers. If a DG from another department, it is
his money, he says you shall place this with Sunday Times, even if I say, but TELMA
says put it with City Press and he says I said Sunday Times. So what you then do,
because what we are all about is economies of scale, then you would look at how
many other Sunday Times in the system and everything.
So when you go to Sunday Times to bargain for a price you then go there

20

with a bigger number and you try and negotiate a price down, that is as far as you
can do.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, I see it is 16:30.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, alright. How much time do you think you will need?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Chair, I am hesitant to hazard a guess in the light of

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the answers that I am getting, because there is not a straightforward answer. So I
might well be misleading you in suggesting to you that this is the time I think I would
be able to deal with.
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should start early tomorrow?
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Yes, we are available, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyi, you may not have had an idea that we might have to go
over to tomorrow. Are you able to come back tomorrow?
MR MZWANELE MANYI: Yes, Chairperson, I am here.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, and we can start early like 09:00.
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MR MZWANELE MANYI: 07:00 I am easy.
CHAIRPERSON: Even 07:00. Okay, alright, we are going to then adjourn and
tomorrow we will start at 09:00.
ADV VINCENT MALEKA SC: Thank you, Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
MEETING ADJOURNED

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TRANSCRIBER’S CERTIFICATE FOR COMMISSION OF INQUIRY
INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG

10

DATE HELD

: 2018-11-26

DAY:

: 30

TRANSCRIBERS

:C. SWART, M. BOCCHIO, E BOUWER,
A BOSMAN, L DAPHNE

Audio’s are typed verbatim, as far as audible/possible

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