C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

26 NOVEMBER 2019

D AY 1 9 3

20

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 26 NOVEMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e r e a d y. G o o d m o r n i n g M r S h a ik .
Are we ready?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir j u s t a s h o m e w o r k w e l o o k e d a t t h e
in t e r i m C o n s t it u t io n .
10

T h e r e a r e a fe w m o r e r e fe r e n c e s o th e r t h a n t h e

o n e s t o w h ic h w e a ll u d e d y e s t e r d a y. T h e y a r e n o t m a t e r ia l b u t w e w i ll
p r e p a r e a m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h w e c a n s i m p ly s u b m i t t o a s a m a t t e r o f
la w. M o r n in g M r S h a ik .
MR SHAIK: Morning.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w i ll r e c a ll t h a t y e s t e r d a y w e e n d e d a t
t h e p o in t w h e r e y o u h a d d e s c r i b e d to th e C h a ir t h e c o n te n ts o f y o u r
m e e ti n g w i th t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A f t e r t h a t m e e ti n g w h a t d i d y o u l e a r n

a b o u t t h e i n c i d e n t in v o lv i n g M in is t e r M b a l u l a a n d t h e i n fo r m a t i o n g i v e n
20

t o h i m o r a l le g e d ly g iv e n t o h i m b y th e G u p t a ’s r e g a r d i n g h is i m m i n e n t
a p p o i n t m e n t a s M i n i s te r ?
MR SHAIK:

T h e – I h a v e l e a r n t t h a t th e i n fo r m a ti o n a ll e g e d in t h e

newspapers was indeed correct.

T h a t M i n is t e r M b a l u l a i n th e N E C

m e e ti n g r a is e d th e i s s u e o f h i s a p p o in t m e n t o r t h e n o ti fi c a t io n o f h is
a p p o i n t m e n t b y t h e G u p t a ’s b e f o r e h e w a s a p p o i n t e d .

Page 2 of 185

S o t h a t m a t te r

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w a s c o n f ir m e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d th a t c o n f ir m a ti o n c o m e i m m e d i a te ly a f t e r y o u r

m e e ti n g w i th t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ?
MR SHAIK:

I t c a m e – i t c a m e – i t c a m e a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g w i t h th e

former President.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c a m e o u t .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It c a m e o u t o f th a t m e e t i n g ?
M R S H A I K : N o i t c a m e – n o c a m e – n o c a m e a ft e r t h e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a f te r ?
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R S H A IK : A n d th e – I h a v e c o n s u l t e d w i t h t h e p e r s o n w h o g a v e m e
t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : A n d h e in f a c t d i d a p p e a r b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : A n d i t is fo r m e r M in is t e r Si p h i w e N y a n d a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . S o …

20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e d e s c r i b e d to t h e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – I a m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s . Yo u h a v e m o v e d a w a y
fr o m t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Just to…
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l s a v e f o r o n e q u e s ti o n b u t i n e ff e c t

Page 3 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y le t – w e ll l e t m e w a i t u n ti l y o u h a v e a s k e d

t h a t o n e q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e i t m i g h t b e t h e o n e I a m th in k i n g o f .

So I

w i ll l e t y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r i n t e r a c ti o n w it h M i n is t e r C w e l e a n d
y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t .

Yo u h a v e a l l u d e d to t h e e ff e c t t h a t

t h o s e i n t e r a c ti o n s h a d o n y o u r w o r k in g r e l a ti o n s h i p b o th w i t h t h e
M i n is t e r a n d w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t, t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t .
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t s u m u p t h e …
MR SHAIK: Well in my opinion.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e o u t c o m e p l e a s e .
MR SHAIK:

I n m y o p in io n it w a s q u i t e c l e a r th a t I h a v e l o s t t h e

c o n fi d e n c e o f t h e P r e s id e n t.

A n d s e c o n d ly m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h

M i n is t e r C w e l e w a s s e t o n a n ir r e c o v e r a b l e b r e a k d o w n tr a j e c t o r y. A n d
t h is w a s a n d I m u s t s a y o n e o f t h e m a n y is s u e s i n w h ic h I d i d n o t s e e
e y e t o e y e w i th M i n i s t e r C w e le .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h e n y o u s a y t h e r e h a d b e e n a lo s s o f

c o n fi d e n c e i n y o u r v i e w w a s t h e lo s s o f c o n fi d e n c e b y th e Pr e s i d e n t
20

ju s t i fi a b l e ?
MR SHAIK: No it was not.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e y o u a b l e t o t e l l d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g w i t h t h e

P r e s i d e n t w h e t h e r i n e x p r e s s i n g t h e v i e w s t h a t h e e x p r e s s e d h e in g o o d
f a i t h d i d n o t s e e y o u r p o i n t o f v ie w a b o u t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r w o u l d y o u
s a y h e s a w o u r p o in t o f v ie w b u t m a y b e t h e r e w e r e o t h e r r e a s o n s w h y

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
h e c o n t in u e d t o t a k e t h e p o s i ti o n th a t h e t o o k ? I s t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u
a r e a b le t o – t o – t o a s s e s s o r is t h a t s o m e th in g t h a t y o u w e r e n o t a b l e
to assess?

A n d y o u d o n o t w h e t h e r i t w a s a c a s e o f h i m g e n u in e l y

b e li e v i n g t h a t y o u w e r e w r o n g t o w a n t t o d o t h is a s o p p o s e d to s a y – to
k n o w i n g t h a t y o u a r e r ig h t b u t n o t w a n ti n g it d o n e fo r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n ?
M R S H A I K : S ir I w o u l d a n s w e r t h a t q u e s ti o n i n tw o w a y s a n d u s i n g t w o
fr a m e s o f r e f e r e n c e .
O ff ic e r.

T h e f ir s t i n – i s m y c a p a c i ty a s a n I n t e lli g e n c e

I d o t h i n k t h e P r e s id e n t in h is c a p a c it y a s a P r e s i d e n t

understood what we were saying and the enormous consequences of
10

w h a t w e w e r e s a y i n g a n d i t is f o r t h a t r e a s o n h e w e n t in t o a v e r y
e l a b o r a t e e x p l a n a t i o n o f h i s r e l a ti o n s h i p s .

If he was not concerned

a b o u t w h a t w e w e r e s a y in g h e w o u ld h a v e s i m p ly d is m i s s e d o u r
concerns.

S o w h e n I – i t is m y e x p e r ie n c e t h a t w h e n s o m e o n e g o e s

in t o a n e l a b o r a t e e x p l a n a t io n o f r e l a ti o n s h i p s i t i s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e
s e e k i n g t o c la r i fy t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d t h e b a s is o f i t . S o t h a t is m y –
w e a r i n g m y i n t e ll ig e n c e h a t . A s s o m e o n e w h o h a s k n o w n t h e P r e s i d e n t
f o r a n i n c r e d i b l y l o n g p e r i o d o f ti m e I d o k n o w th a t Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a
w h e n – I w ill n o t s a y h e is s t u b b o r n b u t w h e n – w h e n h e d o e s m a k e u p
h is m i n d o n a m a t te r i t is o f t e n d i ff ic u l t t o s h i f t t h a t m i n d - s e t .
20

So I

t h i n k t h e r e w a s a n e l e m e n t o f t h a t . B u t I t h i n k th ir d l y a n d I h a v e h a d
t h is

e x p e r ie n c e

in

r e la t io n

to

my

own

fa m i ly

member

and

h is

r e l a ti o n s h i p . H e – I th in k h e w a s b e in g v e r y l o y a l t o t h e fr i e n d s h i p t h a t
h e w a s h a v i n g w it h th e G u p t a fa m i ly a n d o f te n th a t l o y a lt y e v e n th o u g h
w a s c a u s i n g h i m s o m e e m b a r r a s s m e n t i n r e s p e c t o f h i s p u b l ic o ff ic e th e
m i n d - s e t i n h is m i n d th a t h e c o u l d d e f e n d t h a t fr i e n d s h i p a n d h e c o u ld

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
d o s o j u s ti f ia b l y w a s m a d e e a s i e r i n h i s m i n d - s e t b y e m b r a c i n g –
e m b r a c in g t h e v i c t i m h o o d s t a t e o f m i n d .

A n d I th i n k h e w a s a s a

consequence in a state of mind that says, he can see nothing wrong,
t h e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g h e r e a n d th a t w e s h o u l d a c c e p t t h a t th e r e is
n o t h i n g w r o n g . S o t h e f a c ts d i d n o t m a t te r a t t h a t p o i n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i t is q u it e i m p o r t a n t fo r – f o r m e t o tr y a n d

u n d e r s t a n d v a r i o u s p e r s p e c t iv e s a n d a ls o t o tr y a n d u n d e r s ta n d e x a c tl y
w h a t h i s th i n k i n g w a s i n r e g a r d t o t h i s i s s u e a s w e l l a s in r e g a r d to
o th e r a ll e g a t i o n s a n d e v id e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n i n r e g a r d t o o t h e r
10

in c i d e n c e s r e l a ti n g t o th e G u p t a ’s a b o u t h i m .

Mr Mbalula gave

e v i d e n c e h e r e th a t o n t h e – a t t h e m e e t in g o f t h e N E C w h e r e h e r a is e d
t h e is s u e t h a t M r Aj a y G u p t a I t h i n k i t w a s – Mr A j a y G u p t a h a d c a l le d
h i m a h e a d o f t h e o ffi c i a l a n n o u n c e m e n t o f h is a p p o i n t m e n t a s M i n i s te r.
I th i n k i t w a s – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r i t w a s o f P o l ic e o r o f S p o r ts
a n d R e c r e a t io n w h e n h e r a is e d th a t is s u e a t t h e N E C .

I f I r e c a ll

c o r r e c t ly h e t e s t i fi e d – i t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a t t h a t m e e ti n g b u t h e
t e s ti fi e d i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly th a t w h e n e v e r t h e is s u e o f M r Z u m a ’s
fr i e n d s h i p w i t h th e G u p t a f a m il y w a s r a i s e d b u t m a y b e t h is w a s M r
R a m a t l h o d i m a y b e I a m g e t t in g m ix e d u p .
20

But one of them said

w h e n e v e r th is is s u e w a s r a is e d w i t h – w it h h i m t o s a y, t h i s fr i e n d s h i p ,
y o u r fr i e n d s h ip w i t h th e G u p t a fa m i ly i s d a m a g in g to t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
a n d t o g o v e r n m e n t w h o e v e r o f t h e tw o t h a t is M r M b a l u l a o r M r
R a m a t l h o d i w h o e v e r g a v e th e e v i d e n c e t h a t h is r e s p o n s e w a s o f t h a t
s o m e t h i n g lik e t h e r e w a s n o th in g w r o n g w i t h t h e fr i e n d s h ip . Th e G u p t a
f a m ily h a d h e lp e d I th i n k h e m e a n t h is c h i l d r e n w h e n n o b o d y c o u l d h e l p

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
them.

S o o n e o f th e q u e s t io n s t h a t a r is e s in m y m i n d is w h e th e r if

t h e s e t h in g s a r e t r u e b e c a u s e h e s ti ll w ill c o m e a n d d e a l w i t h th e m a n d
g iv e h i s s i d e o f th e s t o r y b u t i f t h e y a r e tr u e w h e t h e r t h is m a y h a v e
b e e n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e i t c a n b e s a i d t h a t h e w a s b e h o l d e n t o t h e
f a m ily a n d w h a te v e r w o u l d h a r m t h e m h e w o u l d tr y a n d p r o t e c t t h e m .
O r w h a t e v e r t h e y w a n te d t h e y w o u l d g e t . M a y b e th a t i s to w h y i t m a y
b e m o s t o f t h e t h in g s t h a t th e y m i g h t w a n t th e y w o u l d g e t .

T h e r e is

a ls o t h e e v i d e n c e w h i c h h e h a s d is p u t e d b y M r T h e m b a M a s e k o w h o
s a y s h e w a s to l d b y t h e l a t e M in is t e r C h a b a n e in I t h i n k la t e J a n u a r y o f
10

2 0 11 t h a t h e h a d r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m P r e s id e n t Z u m a w h o a t t h e t i m e
w a s o u t o f th e c o u n tr y to s a y h e s h o u l d r e m o v e Mr M a s e k o fr o m t h e
p o s i ti o n o f C E O o f G C I S a n d – o r d is m is s h i m o r r e m o v e h i m a n d b y th e
ti m e h e a r r iv e d b a c k i n th e c o u n tr y M r M a s e k o s h o u l d n o l o n g e r b e i n
t h a t p o s i ti o n . A s I s e e – a s I s a y h e h a s d e n i e d t h a t e v id e n c e b u t i f
t h a t e v id e n c e w e r e t r u e it m a y b e l in k e d t o t h e f a c t t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o M r
M a s e k o a f e w m o n th s e a r l ie r h e h a d r e f u s e d to c o o p e r a te w i t h t h e
G u p t a ’s .

H e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h M r A ja y G u p t a a n d a t e le p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n w h ic h e n d e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t Mr A j a y G u p t a s a i d
a c c o r d i n g to M r M a s e k o “ I s e e t h a t y o u d o n o t w a n t t o c o o p e r a te I w il l
20

r e p o r t y o u t o y o u r s e n i o r s a n d t h e y w i ll s o r t y o u o u t o r y o u w i ll b e
s o r t e d o u t . ” S o i t m a y b e l in k e d to t h a t . N o w i f it is tr u e a n d th e n y o u
h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h r e e s e n i o r o ff ic ia ls o f t h e i n t e lli g e n c e c o m e t o
h i m , t h e y a r e c l e a r t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n v o lv in g t h e
G u p t a ’s a n d h e is c le a r t h a t th e i n v e s t ig a t i o n is a b a d i d e a .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e – t h e t h r e e s e n i o r o ff ic ia ls e n d u p n o t h a v i n g
to proceed.

A n d – a n d y o u s a y a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i t io n h e

a p p r e c ia t e d t h e t h r e a t t o N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty i t is n o t a s if h e d i d n o t
a p p r e c ia t e i t .
MR SHAIK: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r g iv e n t h a t – a l l t h is t h a t I
h a v e ju s t m e n t io n e d y o u – y o u a r e a b l e to s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t w h a t
i m p a c t th is fr i e n d s h i p m a y h a v e h a d o n h i m i n r e g a r d to m a k in g a n y
d e c is i o n s t h a t c o n n e c t – t h a t w e r e c o n n e c t e d w i t h th e th e m o r t h e ir
10

businesses.
MR SHAIK:

C h a ir I d o n o t – I d o n o t h a v e s p e c i fi c k n o w l e d g e a b o u t

t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d I l ik e – l ik e m o s t o t h e r s w e r e r e a d in g th e
n e w s p a p e r s , p ic k in g u p w h a t w e w e r e p i c k i n g u p a b o u t w h a t – w h a t
w o u ld a p p e a r t o b e a n i n a p p r o p r i a te a s s o c ia t i o n a n d o f c o u r s e th e
a p p r o p r i a t e n e s s o f t h e a s s o c ia t io n m a y n o t li e in th e fr i e n d s h ip i t s e l f.
B u t it w a s q u it e e v i d e n t t h a t s o m e k in d o f i n fl u e n c e p e d d li n g w a s t a k i n g
p l a c e b y t h e G u p t a b r o th e r s a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r o n e o f t h e m t h a t h a s b e e n
m e n ti o n e d .

A n d th e P r e s id e n t n e e d e d t o b e a l iv e t o t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n

p e d d l in g . A n d t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s d is m i s s iv e o f i t w il l f o r e v e r r e m a i n a
20

m y s t e r y t o m e a n d w h e th e r i t w a s – w h e t h e r h e w a s d i s m is s iv e o f i t
b e c a u s e h e w a s b e h o l d e n I h a v e n o p a r ti c u l a r k n o w le d g e o f t h a t. B u t
t h e i n a p p r o p r i a t e n e s s o f t h e b e h a v i o u r o f t h e G u p ta f a m i ly I t h i n k t h a t
is n o t i n d o u b t a n y m o r e .

A n d I m u s t s a y t h a t I w a s p r e s e n t w i th M r

M a s e k o a t t h e t i m e th a t h e d i d g e t th a t c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A IK : I r e c a ll w e w e r e h a v i n g l u n c h t o g e t h e r a n d h e w a s o n h is
w a y to S u n C i ty a n d h e w a s g o in g to S u n C it y w h e n h e w a s s i t t in g
across me when his phone range.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SHAIK:

A n d I c o u l d h e a r i t w a s a d i ff ic u l t p h o n e c a l l th a t w a s

t a k i n g p la c e . S o w h e n h e p u t t h e p h o n e d o w n h e m e n ti o n e d to m e , c a n
y o u b e li e v e I j u s t g o t a c a l l fr o m A j a y G u p ta w h o I d o n o t k n o w w h o is
t e ll i n g m e t h a t h is – I m u s t t a k e a d v e r t s o u t i n t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r
e tc e t e r a . A n d Mr M a s e k o w a s q u i te r a t tl e d b y t h a t p h o n e c a ll . A n d i t is
10

o n e o f t h e i n s ta n c e s th a t I h a d e v e n t h o u g h in d ir e c t b u t s o m e w h a t
d ir e c t e x p e r i e n c e o f th e k i n d o f a b u s e s o r t h e k i n d o f a p p r o a c h e s th a t
t h e G u p t a f a m ily w a s ta k i n g w it h g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a l s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR SHAIK:

B u t lik e I s a i d Si r i t r e m a i n s a my s te r y a n d I t h i n k th e

c o u n tr y a w a i ts P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s e x p l a n a t i o n f o r w h a t w a s t h e n a t u r e o f
t h a t r e l a t i o n s h ip a n d w h y – w h y i n t h e li g h t o f s o m a n y p e o p l e r a is in g
t h e is s u e h e s t il l f e lt i t n e c e s s a r y to d e fe n d i t . A n d i f n o t d e f e n d i t n o t
p u t t h e k in d o f a p p r o p r i a te c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s i n p l a c e . A n d t h is is –
t h is g o e s to w h y t h e o ff ic e o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t is s o i m p o r t a n t to b e s t a ffe d
20

b y t h e a p p r o p r i a t e p e o p l e t o b e m a n a g e d i n a p a r t ic u l a r w a y. I t i s to
a v o i d y o u k n o w i n a s e n s e u n d u e in f l u e n c e o n t h e o ff ic e f o r w h a t e v e r
r e a s o n a n d t h e i n t e l li g e n c e s e r v ic e s a r e t h e r e in fa c t to p r o t e c t t h e
P r e s i d e n t fr o m s u c h u n d u e in f lu e n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

No thank you.

S o – a n d y o u s a i d t h a t a f te r t h e

m e e ti n g th e t h r e e o f y o u a c c e p t e d o r d e c i d e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t g o i n g

Page 9 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t o b e a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R S H A I K : T h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g /
M R S H A I K : T h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c e r t a i n ly a s f a r a s y o u k n o w t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n d i d
not proceed?
M R S H A I K : T h e in v e s t i g a t io n – w e l l t h e r e w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y n o r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : T h a t w a s g iv e n t o m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SHAIK: On the progress of the –
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R S H A I K : O f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s s o I c a n o n ly b u t a s s u m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H A I K : T h a t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n d i d n o t c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : B u t e v e n ts s o o n c a u g h t u p w i t h a ll o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : I n r e s p e c t o f th is m a t t e r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u s a i d s o m e t h i n g y e s t e r d a y a n d I j u s t w a n t t o
m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d i t .

I th o u g h t e x p r e s s e d s o m e k i n d o f

d is a p p o in t m e n t t h a t y o u f o u n d y o u r s e l f in a s it u a ti o n w h e r e y o u h a d to
a c c e p t th a t w h e r e a s y o u th o u g h t a n in v e s t ig a ti o n w a s c a ll e d f o r b u t
none was going to happen.
M R S H A I K : Ye s .

Page 10 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . I j u s t w a n t y o u t o d e a l w i t h t h a t a li t tl e to
m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s to o d .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th e b a s is o f y o u r d is a p p o i n t m e n t w a s . I d o n o t
k n o w i f y o u p u t it a s a d is a p p o i n t m e n t b u t …
M R S H A I K : I t w a s – i t is a – a b i t o f a n in t e r n a l r e fl e c ti o n a n d I h a v e
d e b a te d o f t e n my s e l f.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : H m .
MR SHAIK:
10

A n d a m o n g s t o u r c o l le a g u e s w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d h a v e

c o n ti n u e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : W i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : W h e t h e r w e s h o u l d h a v e s a i d , t h is i s i t a n d d r a w t h e l in e
in t h e s a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d c o n d u c t e d t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R S H A I K : Ye s i t w o u l d h a v e l e d t o e n o r m o u s tr o u b le s .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : I t w o u ld h a v e m e a n t g o in g th r o u g h l a b o u r c o u r ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SHAIK: Because the moves to get us.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : R e m o v e d fr o m t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s h a v e d o n e .

Page 11 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A IK : A n d I t h i n k i t r e q u i r e d a – a – i t r e q u ir e d a n e x tr a o r d in a r y
a m o u n t o f c o u r a g e a n d f o r e s i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : To b e a b l e t o s a y, d e s p i t e t h e f a c t th a t y o u h a v e l o s t th e –
t h e c o n fi d e n c e o f t h e Pr e s id e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : To c o n t i n u e w i t h s o m e t h in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R S H A I K : B e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : R u l i n g o n t h i s m a tt e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
MR SHAIK:

I t is t h e m a t t e r o f B il li e M a s e tl a v e r s u s t h e P r e s i d e n c y

w h e r e i m p li e d i n th e p o w e r to a p p o i n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SHAIK: Is the power to remove.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : S o y e s i t w a s c l e a r th a t th e – t h e p o w e r t o r e m o v e u s d i d
20

r e s id e w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d i f w e d id c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : I t h i n k t h a t r e m o v a l w o u l d h a v e b e e n f o r th c o m i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 12 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A I K : A n d o f c o u r s e t h e n i t m e a n t u s c o n te s ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : T h e r e m o v a l o n th e b a s is o f c o n s tr u c tiv e d is m i s s a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : O r – a n d fi n d t h e l a b o u r l a w h o o k t o fi n d – to g e t b a c k to
your job.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : B u t i t w a s a m o u n t a i n to o h i g h t o c li m b .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR SHAIK:

B u t I – I o f t e n t h i n k a n d t h a t is w h y I s a id it r e fl e c t e d a

s h a m e p a r t ly b e c a u s e it w a s a b a t tl e t h a t w e f o u n d o u r s e lv e s f ig h ti n g .
T h e – b u t w e c o m e f r o m o r g a n i s a t io n s .
ANC.

W e h a v e h i s t o r y.

W e u s e d to c o m e fr o m t h e

Th e y – t h e y a r e p e o p le w h o k n o w u s . T h e r e

w a s o r g a n i s a t io n a l m e e ti n g s . T h e r e is d i ff e r e n t c a b i n e t M i n is te r s a t t h e
ti m e .

T h e r e w a s t h e D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t .

w a s a s il e n c e .

T h e r e w e r e o th e r s b u t t h e r e

A n d i n t h e l ig h t o f t h e s il e n c e i s a n a c c e p t a n c e o f

d e f e a t s o to s p e a k .

So I think – and I am not – I am not blaming

a n y o n e fo r t h e ir s i le n c e .

I a m n o t h o l d i n g th e m r e s p o n s i b le f o r t h e ir

s il e n c e b u t s il e n c e b e c a m e a f e a t u r e o f t h e w a y g o v e r n a n c e w a s
20

o c c u r r i n g a n d a c c e p t i n g y o u r d is m i s s a l o r a c c e p ti n g y o u r r e m o v a l
b e c a m e t o b e a v e r y w e ir d d e f i n i ti o n o f d i g n i ty.

But there was a

s il e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u r e fe r t o t h e j u d g m e n t o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l

C o u r t in t h e B i ll ie M a s e t l a m a tt e r. As I r e c a l l t h a t j u d g m e n t i t w o u ld n o t
h a v e p r o v i d e d y o u w i t h a n y c o m f o r t b e c a u s e fo r t h e s i tu a ti o n y o u w e r e

Page 13 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
f a c e d – y o u w e r e c o n t e m p l a ti n g .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e i n t h a t m a t te r a l t h o u g h i t w a s f o u n d t h a t I

t h i n k – I h o p e I a m n o t m is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e j u d g m e n t . I t w a s f o u n d t h a t
I t h i n k M r M a s e tl a h a d b e e n u n l a w fu ll y d i s mi s s e d o r u n c o n s ti t u ti o n a lly
d is m i s s e d . T h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t s a i d h e s h o u l d n o t b e r e i n s t a te d .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e r e f o r e y o u w e r e v e r y m u c h in t h e s a m e

p o s i ti o n a n i f t h e P r e s i d e n t d e c id e d t o r e m o v e y o u a n d y o u b e li e v e d
10

y o u h e w a s d o i n g s o u n la w f u l ly c h a n c e s t h a t i f y o u w e n t t o c o u r t y o u
c o u l d g e t y o u r j o b b a c k m i g h t h a v e b e e n v e r y d i m i n i s h e d i f th e r e a t a l l .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o y o u – i f y o u w e r e a w a r e o f a ll o f t h o s e th i n g s
y o u – a ll o f t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u l d n o t h a v e g iv e n
you much courage.
MR SHAIK:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u l d i m a g i n e t o – t o f o l lo w th a t p o s s i b l e a p p r o a c h
o f s a y i n g w e w i ll p u r s u e t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n i f w e g e t fir e d w e w i ll
approach the courts.
20

MR SHAIK:

Ye s .

The – yes – I mean that would – that would have

b e e n a – a d e m o n s tr a ti o n o f t h e b r e a k d o w n o f t r u s t b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s
a n d th e P r e s i d e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A IK :

A n d o f c o u r s e t h e M in is t e r. W h ic h – w h ic h w o u ld h a v e

w o r k e d a g a i n s t u s b e c a u s e t h e c o u r t s w o u l d h a v e in m y v i e w h a v e

Page 14 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
a r g u e d k n o w in g t h a t it w a s b r e a k d o w n i n – i n tr u s t y o u s ti ll c o n ti n u e d
w i t h a n o p e r a ti o n f o r w h ic h i t w a s p r e f e r r e d t h a t y o u d i d n o t d o a n d w e
w o u ld h a v e e n t e r e d in t o t h e r e a l m o f i n s u b o r d i n a ti o n .

So I think we

w a n t e d t o a v o id t h a t . B u t w e d id u s e – i n f a c t I d id u s e t h e b e n e fi t o f
t h a t C o n s t i tu t io n a l j u d g m e n t b e c a u s e t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t a s y o u
c o r r e c t ly s a i d r u le d t h a t t h e d is m is s a l w a s u n la w f u l b u t h e c a n n o t g e t
h is j o b b a c k b e c a u s e o f t h e ir r e tr i e v a b l e b r e a k d o w n o f tr u s t .

B u t th e

r e l i e f t h e c o u r t g a v e h i m w a s t h a t h i s c o n t r a c t a n d a ll th e p e r k s a n d a ll
t h e t h in g s t h a t w a s d u e t o h i m h a d to b e m a d e p a y a b le t o h i m . A n d I
10

t h i n k th a t w a s a – a j u d g m e n t th a t g a v e m e m u c h r e li e f b e c a u s e i n t h e
s u b s e q u e n t m a t te r s t h a t o c c u r r e d b e tw e e n t h e M i n i s te r a n d I I r e li e d o n
t h a t j u d g m e n t t o e n s u r e my r i g h ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t h i n k i t c o u l d h a v e p r o v i d e d th e r e li e f i n te r m s
o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t e v e n i f y o u d id n o t g e t th e j o b b a c k y o u w o u ld b e
p a i d t h e r e m u n e r a t io n th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e r e c e iv e d i f y o u h a d
c o n ti n u e d w i th y o u r …
M R S H A I K : C o n tr a c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te r m – y o u r c o n t r a c t u p t o t h e e n d .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n ly th i n g o f c o u r s e is t h a t i f y o u r f o c u s w a s to
g e t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n d o n e i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t g e t it d o n e
b e c a u s e i f y o u a r e r e m o v e d a n d y o u c a n n o t c o m e b a c k y o u w il l g e t
y o u r m o n e y b u t th a t v e r y i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t y o u r e a ll y w a n te d to b e
d o n e t h e n w i ll n o t d o n e .

A n d I th i n k it is u n li k e ly a n y o n e w h o g e ts

a p p o i n t e d t o – i n y o u r p l a c e w o u ld p u r s u e it k n o w i n g t h a t y o u h a d b e e n

Page 15 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
r e m o v e d f o r w a n t in g to p u r s u e i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o th e j u d g m e n t m ig h t h a v e ta k e n c a r e o f y o u r

fi n a n c i a l s i tu a ti o n a n d th e fa m i ly w h ic h is a n i m p o r t a n t t h i n g b u t t o t h e
e x t e n t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e t h o u g h t t h i s w h ic h w e w a n t t o in v e s ti g a t e
r e l a t e s to N a ti o n a l S e c u r it y a n d i t is i m p o r t a n t f o r th e n a t io n t h a t w o u ld
p r o b a b ly h a v e c o m e t o a n e n d .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M R S H A IK :

Th e – a n d I t h in k t h a t – th a t u n f o r t u n a t e ly i s t h e c a s e .

H o w e v e r I t h i n k a n d I a m j u s t s p e c u l a ti n g a g a i n t h a t g i v e n th e is s u e s
t h a t a r e th e r e a l l l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s , a l l l a w e n f o r c e m e n t
a g e n c ie s w o u l d h a v e t o a p p ly t h e ir m i n d s t o t h e q u e s t i o n o f a n
in v e s t i g a t io n i n to t h e G u p ta ’s in r e g a r d t o a n y c r i m in a l m a t t e r.

If I

c o u l d o ffe r s o m e a d v ic e S ir I w o u ld s u g g e s t t h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n m a k e s
s u c h a n i n q u ir y o f a l l l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s in c l u d i n g t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n R e v e n u e S e r v ic e s w h e t h e r i n th e li g h t o f s p e c u la t io n s o r i s s u e s
t h a t w e r e p u b lic ly r e p o r t e d w h e th e r t h e y c o n d u c t e d a n y in v e s t i g a t io n s
a n d w o u ld t h e y a v a il t h o s e in v e s t i g a t io n s t o t h e c o m m is s i o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i t is i n t e r e s ti n g y o u m a k e t h a t s u g g e s t i o n

b e c a u s e y o u r e v id e n c e a s – a c t u a l ly tr ig g e r e d t h a t t h o u g h t i n m y m in d .
B e c a u s e i f t h e in t e l li g e n c e w a n t e d to d o a n in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d t h i s is
w h a t h a p p e n e d w h a t o t h e r s e c u r i ty r e l a te d a g e n c i e s m a y h a v e h a d to –
m a y h a v e h a d c a u s e t o i n v e s ti g a t e o n e o r o t h e r t h in g r e l a ti n g t o th e
G u p t a F a m il ie s . D i d th e y m a k e d e c is i o n s to in v e s ti g a t e ? O r d id t h e y

Page 16 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
n o t m a k e th e d e c i s i o n s t o i n v e s t ig a t e e v e n th o u g h t h e r e w e r e g r o u n d s
t o d o s o ? A n d i f t h e y d id m a k e th e d e c i s io n to i n v e s t ig a t e w h e r e d i d
t h o s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s e n d ? A n d d i d t h e y g e t th e s u p p o r t t h a t t h e y w e r e
s u p p o s e d t o g e t fr o m w h o e v e r ? W e r e t h e r e a n y p e o p l e w h o i n te r f e r e d
w i t h t h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ? S o I t h i n k y o u r s u g g e s ti o n is a - is a g o o d
o n e . I t i s i m p o r ta n t to h a v e a - a v ie w a s p a r t o f tr y i n g t o s e e to w h a t
extent

various

-

you

know

-

s e c u r it y

agencies

may

have

had

o p p o r t u n i ti e s o f d o i n g s o m e t h in g a n d m a y b e t h e y d i d n o t d o a n y t h in g
t h e m s e l v e s o r tr i e d , b u t w e r e n o t - w e r e p r e v e n t e d o r w e r e n o t a s s is te d
10

t o - t o c o n t in u e .
MR SHAIK: Or persuaded otherwise.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a n k y o u . M r - Mr P r e t o r i u s . Yo u c a n p r o c e e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Thank you.

R is in g o u t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e

t h is m o r n i n g M r S h a i k y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e m e e t in g b e t w e e n y o u a n d
t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d tr i e d t o u n d e r s t a n d fr o m a s u b j e c t iv e p o in t o f v ie w
h is m o t iv a ti o n s , r e a s o n in g , g o o d f a it h s t a n c e a n d t h e li k e . I w o u ld lik e
t o p u t i t t o y o u f r o m a d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c tiv e p l e a s e .
MR SHAIK: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

A t t h a t m e e t in g t h e P r e s id e n t w a s b e in g

a p p r o a c h e d i n h is c a p a c i t y a s H e a d o f I n te lli g e n c e ?
M R S H A I K : A s th e H e a d o f t h e E x e c u t iv e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r I n te ll i g e n c e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

In t e l li g e n c e .

Ye s .

We have used the

term …
MR SHAIK: Correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

L o o s e ly I u n d e r s t a n d a n d y o u h a v e

Page 17 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
r e fe r r e d t o h is c o n s t i tu t io n a l r e s p o n s ib il i t ie s i n r e l a t i o n to t h e c o n tr o l
a n d d ir e c t io n o f s e r v i c e s i n 2 - 0 - 9 o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n ?
MR SHAIK: Correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

At

th a t

m e e ti n g

the

is s u e

of

h is

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m il y a r o s e ?
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d h e s o u g h t to e x p l a i n a t t h e v e r y l e a s t
le t o r e v e n d e f e n d h is r e la t io n s h ip w i t h th e G u p t a fa m i ly ?
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Now clearly and you have used the word

t h e r e i s a c o n fl ic t?
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

O b j e c t iv e l y s p e a k i n g y o u r o p in io n a n d i t

is a n o p in i o n a n d t h e C h a i r w i ll b e a w a r e o f t h a t o b v i o u s ly, b u t h e i s
in t e r e s te d in o p i n i o n s .

G i v e n y o u r k n o w le d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e o f t h e

c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e P r e s i d e n t in h is c a p a c i t y a s th e
E x e c u t iv e p e r s o n a l a c c o u n t a b le f o r I n t e l li g e n c e . W a s th is a ju s t i fi a b l e
approach?
M R S H A I K : In m y o p i n i o n s ir i t - i t w a s n o t a j u s ti f ia b le a p p r o a c h . Th e
20

P r e s i d e n t i n h is c a p a c i ty a s P r e s i d e n t c o u l d n o t s e p a r a t e h i s p e r s o n a l
r e l a ti o n s h i p fr o m h is r e s p o n s i b l e a s a H e a d o f S ta t e .

I n p a r t ic u l a r to

t h e a d v i c e t h a t w a s g iv e n b y h is C h i e fs o f In t e l li g e n c e a n d I t h in k i n in t h a t s e n s e h e w a s n o t f u lly c o g n is a n t o f h is r e s p o n s i b il i ty a n d t h e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r e s p o n s ib il i ty

th a t h e

h a d i n t h e d ir e c ti o n o f t h e

I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s i n e i t h e r w h a t t h e In t e ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s d o o r d o

Page 18 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
not do.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

L e t u s m o v e to p a r a g r a p h 2 9 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t . I f w e m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t m o v in g a w a y fr o m th e m e e ti n g ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J u s t o n e l a s t q u e s ti o n . M a y b e t w o . I n t e r m s
o f w h a t th e P r e s id e n t s a id to y o u a t t h a t m e e t in g a f t e r y o u a n d y o u r
c o l l e a g u e s o u t li n e d w h y y o u b e l ie v e i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o c o n d u c t a n
in v e s t i g a t io n .
10

Yo u d i d s a y t h a t h e g a v e a l o n g h i s to r y o f t h e G u p t a

f a m ily a n d m a y b e h is r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h t h e m a s w e ll , b u t h e w e n t t o
t o w n e x p l a i n i n g v a r i o u s th i n g s .
M y q u e s ti o n is t h i s i n w h a t e v e r h e s a i d w a s h e a d d r e s s i n g
t h e p e r t i n e n t is s u e s o r th e p e r t i n e n t g r o u n d s w h ic h m a d e y o u o r t h e
t h r e e o f y o u b e li e v e th a t th e r e s h o u ld b e a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR SHAIK: No. He was not. The - he was not in - in everything he
was saying.

Ye s .

I t w o u ld h a v e e x p l a i n e d th e c l o s e p e r s o n a l

r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t h e h a d w h i c h m a y b e ju s ti fi a b l e w h ic h m a y b e
u n d e r s t a n d a b l e , b u t h e w a s n o t a p p ly in g h i s m i n d to t h e N a ti o n a l
S e c u r i ty is s u e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n w a s p e d d l e d w h i c h i m p lic a t e s h i s o ff ic e
20

a n d t h e r e f o r e n e e d e d t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d o b j e c ti v e ly a n d I th i n k t h e o n e
- t h e o n e i s s u e t h a t I m u s t r a i s e is t h a t th e d i ff ic u l ty t h e th r e e o f u s h a d
in s p e a k i n g to - t o f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a b o u t t h e m a t te r is t h a t i n
m a n y w a y s h e w a s o n c e u p o n a ti m e o u r H e a d o f A N C I n t e l li g e n c e a n d
t h e r e la t io n s h ip w a s m a k i n g th e a s s u m p t i o n a n d w e w e r e m a k in g t h e
a s s u m p t io n t h a t t h e - t h e fa c t t h a t w e w e r e r a is in g i t a n d t h e w a y w e

Page 19 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w e r e r a is i n g i t .
T h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t w o u ld r e ly o n h is p r e v io u s k n o w l e d g e
a b o u t I n t e ll ig e n c e a n d n o t h a t th is is a s e r io u s m a t te r th a t n e e d s to b e
lo o k e d a t. Ir r e s p e c t iv e o f h i s p e r s o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p s a n a p p r o a c h c o u ld
h a v e b e e n d e s ig n e d t o h a v e m a n a g e d t h a t a n d in s u r e t h a t y o u k n o w th e
p e r s o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p is - is ta k e n i n to c o n s i d e r a ti o n i n th e f i n d in g o f o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i ts e l f . S o I j u s t g o t th e s e n s e t h a t h i s s t a t e o f m i n d
h a d i n v o lv e d t o a p o i n t w h e r e h e c o u ld n o t m a k e th a t s e p a r a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t h in k y o u - y o u u n d e r s t o o d m y q u e s t io n c o r r e c t ly,

b u t I a m g o i n g t o s a y t h is ju s t t o m a k e s u r e i t is c l e a r. Yo u c o u l d h a v e
a s i t u a t io n w h e r e y o u g e t e v id e n c e t h a t s o a n d s o w a s - h a s c o m m i t t e d
the crime of theft at such and such a location. Blah, blah, blah and you
h a v e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t h e w a s s e e n i n t h a t v ic i n i ty m a y b e c a r r y in g
s o m e t h i n g th a t l o o k e d li k e w h a t h a s b e e n s t o l e n . S o y o u s a y I w a n t t o
in v e s t i g a t e th is , b u t s o m e b o d y w h o is a f r i e n d t o th a t p e r s o n m i g h t s a y
t o y o u n o , n o , n o . Yo u a r e w a s t in g y o u r t i m e .
MR SHAIK: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: That man is a good man …
MR SHAIK: Hm.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e m ig h t s ta r t t e l li n g y o u a b o u t l e t u s s a y h i s

s tr u g g l e c r e d e n ti a l s a n d s o o n …
MR SHAIK: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o o n a n d s o o n , b u t n o t a n s w e r i n g t h e q u e s ti o n
w h e t h e r t h e r e is n o t a n e e d t o i n v e s ti g a te , b e c a u s e t h e r e is i n f o r m a ti o n
that he was seen …

Page 20 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
MR SHAIK: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n t h e v ic i n i t y o f w h e r e s o m e t h i n g w a s s t o l e n a n d

c a r r y i n g s o m e t h in g th a t l o o k e d lik e w h a t w a s s t o l e n .
MR SHAIK: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o t h a t is w h a t I a m lo o k in g - I a m l o o k i n g a t .
MR SHAIK: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e th e r w i t h i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h a t e x a m p le h e w a s

d e a li n g w it h th e f a c ts .
MR SHAIK: Hm.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t g iv e r i s e t o t h e - t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n w e s h o u ld

h a v e a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n o r w h e t h e r i t w a s a q u e s t io n o f s a y i n g , n o .

So

and so is a very good person.
MR SHAIK: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k w h a t h e h a s d o n e f o r th e c o m m u n i ty. Yo u k n o w.
M a y b e t h e G u p t a f a m ily a r e e m p l o y i n g a l o t o f S o u th A f r i c a n s a n d w h a t ,
w h a t , w h a t , b u t n o t g o i n g t o t h e is s u e s .
M R S H A I K : S u r e . S ir a n d - a n d I t h i n k w e s h o u l d a ls o b e m i n d f u l t h a t
a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e t h e - Pr e s id e n t Zu m a h i m s e l f h a s c o m e t h r o u g h a
d e c a d e o r p o s s i b ly m o r e t h a n a d e c a d e o f in v e s ti g a t io n s in th e
20

u n f o r t u n a t e w a y th is h a s h a p p e n e d . S o i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n t o h is fr i e n d s .
I a m s o r r y. I j u s t h a v e t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR SHAIK: A moment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H A I K : A s m il e o n th is , b u t i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n to h i s fr i e n d s .

Page 21 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : O n e o f t h e m h a v i n g b e e n S c h a b ir S h a ik .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : L e d - l e d t o p r o s e c u ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : A n d s u c c e s s fu l p r o s e c u t io n a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R S H A I K : S o I c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d s i tt i n g …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : O u t s i d e o f t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : H is s t a te o f m i n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SHAIK: When he hears his friends …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A r e g e tt i n g in v e s ti g a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SHAIK:

20

I t is s o e a s y i n h i s s t a te o f m i n d t o m o v e fr o m is t h i s

a n o t h e r a t te m p t t o c o m e to w a r d s p r o s e c u t i n g m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : E tc e te r a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R S H A I K : b u t t h a t w o u l d b e th e v e r y m e tr y in g to b e i n c r e d i b l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To u n d e r s t a n d ?

Page 22 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A I K : To u n d e r s t a n d th e s t a te o f m i n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . To p u t y o u r s e l f i n y o u r - h is p o s i t io n ?
MR SHAIK: Correct. Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : I n h is . C o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : B u t n o t w i th s t a n d i n g th a t a n d t h a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g t h a t
t h e r e c a m e a p o i n t i n h is a d m i n is tr a t i o n w h e r e h e c o u l d n o t s e p a r a t e
e v e n i n h is s ta t e o f m i n d t h e p e r s o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h t h e G u p ta s fr o m
10

h is r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s th e H e a d o f t h e N a ti o n a l Ex e c u ti v e w i t h c e r t a in
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l o b l ig a ti o n s a n d r e q u ir e m e n ts .

A l l t h i n g s s ta r t e d t o b e

s e e n t h r o u g h t h e s a m e p r is m a n d c r e a t e d e n o r m o u s c o m p li c a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I t h i n k i t is - i t is g o o d y o u m a k e th e p o i n t th a t
maybe if one puts oneself in his shoes.

I t is t o b e e x p e c te d th a t

s o m e b o d y i n t h a t p o s it i o n w o u ld t h i n k a b o u t t h e p a s t .

What has

h a p p e n e d t o o n e o f h is fr ie n d s a n d t h e fa c t t h a t a l t h o u g h c h a r g e s
a g a in s t h i m h a d b e e n w it h d r a w n .
T h e r e - t h e r e w e r e s t ill a t t e m p ts i n th e c o u r t s t o m a k e s u r e
t h a t d e c is i o n i s r e v e r s e d . I w o u l d i m a g in e t h a t i t i s l e g i t i m a te t o t h i n k
20

m a y b e a ll o f th o s e c o u l d b e t h i n g s t h a t h e c o u l d t h i n k - c o u l d h a v e
thought about.
MR SHAIK: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I - I h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e f r o m M r N x a s a n a - w h o

Page 23 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w a s N D P P a t a c e r ta i n s t a g e - t a l k i n g a b o u t h o w h e o r h is d e p a r tu r e
fr o m th e O ff ic e o f N D P P.

O n e o f t h e t h i n g s h e s a id w a s t h a t h e h a d

b e e n t o l d th a t s o m e p e o p le h a d t o ld P r e s i d e n t Z u m a t h a t h e w a s
c o n te m p l a t i n g r e i n s t a ti n g t h e c h a r g e s a g a in s t h i m t h a t h a d b e e n
w i t h d r a w n a n d o n e o f th e t h i n g s th a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is lo o k i n g a t i s
w h y w a s h e r e m o v e d , b e c a u s e th e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t m a d e it c l e a r
a s I r e c a ll .
T h a t h e w a s f i n e f o r - f o r th e jo b a n d t h e r e a r e a l l k in d s o f
t h i n g s . S o I ju s t m e n ti o n th e s e t h i n g s , b e c a u s e o n e h a s g o t t o tr y a n d
10

h a v e a - a g l o b u l a r p ic t u r e .

Thank you.

M r Pr e t o r i u s .

Yo u m a y

proceed.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l fr o m l e g a l t e a m ’s p o in t o f v i e w I

w o u ld lik e to c o m e b a c k t o a p a r ti c u la r p o i n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : In r e l a ti o n t o th is …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Exchange.

a b o u t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s a p p r e h e n s i o n s .

Yo u h a v e h a d a d i s c u s s i o n
H is fr i e n d s h i p s .

H is h i s to r y.

W h a t h e f e a r e d m i g h t h a p p e n e d to h i m i n r e l a ti o n t o h is o w n p e n d in g
20

p r o s e c u t i o n o r p e r h a p s i t w a s p e n d in g a t t h a t t i m e , b u t t h o s e g o t o
m o t iv a t i o n a n d u n d e r s t a n d in g h is s t a t e o f m i n d .
I f w e m a y r e t u r n to a n o b je c t iv e a s s e s s m e n t o f th e p o s i ti o n .
W h i ls t th e r e m a y b e e x p la n a ti o n s f o r w h y t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t a c te d i n
that

m e e ti n g

and

subsequent

thereto

in

the

way

that

he

did.

O b j e c t iv e ly s p e a k i n g d id h e c a r r y o u t h is d u ti e s a s H e a d - E x e c u tiv e

Page 24 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
H e a d a c c o u n t a b l e c o n s t i tu t io n a l ly fo r I n te ll ig e n c e ?
M R S H A I K : R e g r e t t a b ly n o t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A f t e r th a t m e e t i n g d i d y o u c o n t i n u e

working for the State Security Agency?
M R S H A I K : I d i d . I d i d fo r a f e w m o r e m o n th s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d d u r i n g t h e r e m a in i n g p e r i o d o f y o u r

employment as SSA what happened to the developing or the not
d e v e l o p in g r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
M R S H A I K : W e l l t h e - m y r e l a ti o n s h i p in p a r t ic u l a r w i th M i n is t e r C w e le
10

broke

down

c o m p le t e l y.

He

took

to

micromanaging

th e

-

the

o r g a n i s a t io n . T h e - t h e f o r e i g n b r a n c h a n d h e w o u ld h a v e p e o p l e i n th e
o r g a n i s a t io n r e p o r t d ir e c t ly t o h i m . I f h e w a n t e d t h in g s t o b e d o n e h e
w i ll d o i t v i a th e m . I w a s r e q u ir e d t o j u s t s ig n o ff o n - o n m a t te r s .
H e p u t e v e r y o n e in a v e r y d i ffi c u l t p o s it i o n .

H e p u t - th e r e

w e r e s o m e in d iv i d u a ls w h o g l o a t e d in t h is , b u t t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s v e r y
c a p a b le p e o p le w h o f e lt t h a t th e y w e r e p u t in a v e r y c o m p r o m is in g
p o s i ti o n , b e c a u s e t h e y r e s p e c t e d m e a s t h e - th e H e a d o f t h e S e r v i c e ,
b u t y e t t h e y w e r e r e c e iv i n g in s tr u c ti o n s fr o m th e M in is t e r ’s O ffi c e t o d o
c e r t a i n th i n g s w h ic h r e q u ir e d m y s i g n a t u r e a n d j u s t m y s ig n a tu r e n o t 20

n o t a n e x p la n a t i o n .
N o t t h e - a r e p o r t t o e tc e te r a a n d th i s b e c a m e a - a n
u n t e n a b le s it u a ti o n f o r m e a n d - a n d t h e r e w e r e o n - o n d i ff e r e n t
o c c a s i o n s t h e - t h e M in is t e r to o k t o le t u s s a y - l e t u s s a y a - a
p a r t ic u l a r fe a t u r e t h a t I h a v e s i n c e d i s c o v e r e d s o i n my o t h e r j o b . To o k
t o m e h a v in g to w r it e e x p l a n a t io n s o n a l m o s t e v e r y t h i n g .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
I n e e d e d to w r i t e e x p l a n a t io n s i n r e la t io n t o a fr ie n d s h i p I
h a d . T h e p e r s o n h a d d ie d . I h a d to e x p l a i n t h a t fr i e n d s h i p . I h a d t o
e x p l a i n y o u k n o w d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s I d i d a n d h e w a n t e d t h i s i n w r i ti n g a n d
I w o u l d - I w o u l d d u l y o b li g e my - h i m a n d - a n d g iv e s u c h t h i n g s i n
w r i t in g , b u t I t h i n k w e w e r e b o t h c o m i n g t o a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p - s o m e t h i n g n e e d s to h a p p e n , b e c a u s e t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p is is n o t w o r k i n g .
I a p p e a l e d t o a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t w a s i n t h i s p e r i o d
or before.
10

I a p p e a le d t o Pr e s id e n t Zu m a t o i n te r v e n e i n t h i s - i n t h is

m a t t e r, b u t a t s o m e p o i n t I - I r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a l l t o m e e t w it h th e
M i n is t e r a n d …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s t h i s a r o u n d J u n e 2 0 11 ?
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y.
MR SHAIK:

A n d - a n d h e a s k e d - h e e x p r e s s e d h is u n h a p p i n e s s a n d

a s k e d w h e t h e r I w o u l d c o n s i d e r a r e s ig n a ti o n fr o m - f r o m t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a n d g e t t r a n s f e r r e d t o a n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t . I s a i d I w o u ld
g iv e s e r io u s c o n s id e r a ti o n t o t h is .

I w o u l d t h in k a b o u t i t a n d - a n d

c o m e b a c k to h i m o n - o n t h e m a t t e r.
20

H o w e v e r b e f o r e - a n d I r e a l ly d i d th i n k o f r e s i g n i n g . I t h o u g h t
t h a t w a s t h e m o s t e l e g a n t w a y o u t o f th e s i tu a ti o n . I m u s t s a y b y t h e n
a n d - a n d t h i s - b y th e n I w a s - I w a s t h i n k i n g t h a t t h e r e la t io n s h i p i t
ju s t - y o u k n o w. I t is j u s t n o t w o r t h t h e e n e r g y a n y m o r e . Th e jo b is n o t
w o r t h t h e e n e r g y.
I t i s a g r e a t p a s s i o n a t e w o n d e r fu l f u t u r i s t ic jo b , b u t in t h e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
h a n d s o f t h i s M i n i s t e r i t is o n l y g o i n g t o l e a d t o fr u s tr a ti o n f o r m e , b u t
b e f o r e I c o u ld te n d e r m y r e s i g n a ti o n h e c a l l e d m e t o m e e t h i m a n d I
w e n t t o th e m e e ti n g a n d I - I w a s r e a l ly t h i n k in g t h a t a t t h is m e e t in g I
w o u ld b e s e r v e d m y n o ti c e o f t e r m i n a t io n , b u t to m y s u r p r i s e h e m a d e
a n o ff e r t o m e .
That was not for him to make, but nevertheless he made the
o ffe r a n d t h a t o ff e r w a s t h a t h e w a s g o i n g to a p p o i n t m e a s t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n A m b a s s a d o r t o J a p a n .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

Pause

there

for

a

moment.

Yo u r

k n o w l e d g e o f w h e r e th e p o w e r l a y i n r e l a ti o n t o a p p o i n t m e n t s o f
Ambassadors. What was it?
MR SHAIK:

Ye s .

A t t h a t p o in t a n d a g a in I d o n o t w a n t to b e

d is r e s p e c t f u l to M i n is t e r M a it a , b u t a t t h a t p o i n t I d id g e t t h e s e n s e th a t
M i n is t e r C w e le w a s a c ti n g a s th e S h a d o w F o r e i g n M i n is te r, b u t e v e n i f
h e w a s a c t i n g a s a S h a d o w Fo r e ig n M i n is t e r h e h a d n o p o w e r n o
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l a u th o r it y t o m a k e t h e o ffe r n o r d i d h e h a v e t h e a u th o r it y
t o m a k e s u c h a p p o in t m e n t .
The

appointment

of

Ambassadors

is

a

c o n s t it u ti o n a l

r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d t h e f a c t th a t h e c o u l d m a k e th is o ffe r
20

t o m e w a s e n g a g i n g m e i n a d is c u s s io n o f - w h ic h I c o n s id e r e d t o b e
u n c o n s t i tu t io n a l a n d I d i d n o t w a n t to b e p a r t o f th a t d is c u s s i o n w i t h
h i m a n d - a n d I - I in f o r m e d h i m a c c o r d i n g ly t h a t A m b a s s a d o r s h i p s i s
n o t fo r M i n i s t e r s t o - t o a p p o in t a n d p le a s e d o n o t d is c u s s t h is m a t t e r
w i t h m e . If h e w a n ts h e c o u ld a s k th e P r e s i d e n t t o d is c u s s it w it h m e
w h o h a s t h e a u t h o r i ty to a p p o in t A m b a s s a d o r s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u c e r t a i n th a t h e p u t it t o y o u in t e r m s o f h i m
a p p o i n ti n g y o u o r i t c o u ld b e t h a t h e o ff e r e d t o m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
t o t h e P r e s id e n t t h a t y o u b e a p p o i n t e d A m b a s s a d o r o f J a p a n ?
M R S H A I K : Sir, I h a v e - I h a v e - in t h a t m e e t in g a n d I r e m e m b e r i t v e r y
w e ll , b e c a u s e i t w a s a v e r y - a m e e ti n g t h a t w a s - I c a ll my s u b s e q u e n t
m e e ti n g w i th M r C w e l e v e r y t e n s e .

He said I want to appoint you as

A m b a s s a d o r a n d I t h i n k t h e u s e o f th e w o r d “ I ” r e a l ly s p a r k e d a - a
fl a r e i n m y - in m y li m b ic b r a in a n d I r e a ll y g o t a n g r y, b e c a u s e I c o u ld
n o t a c c e p t t h e l e v e l o f u n c o n s ti t u t i o n a li ty t h a t M i n is t e r C w e le w a s n o w
10

going through.
H e d id n o t s a y I w il l r e c o m m e n d . In f a c t I s a i d t o h i m t h a t h e
d o e s n o t h a v e t h i s a u t h o r i ty t o a p p o i n t p e o p l e a s A m b a s s a d o r s a n d
t h e n h e s a i d , b u t y o u k n o w t h is is t h e w a y w e s p e a k i n th e A N C a n d I
h a d to r e m i n d h i m e v e n o n t h e m a tt e r s o f t h e A N C I m a y h a v e a l it t le b i t
m o r e k n o w le d g e t h a n h e h a s , b u t I d i d n o t w a n t t o p u s h t h a t m a t te r
f u r th e r, b e c a u s e I w a s n o t th e r e i n m y c a p a c i t y a s a n A N C M e m b e r.
I w a s t h e r e a s th e H e a d o f t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n S e c r e t S e r v i c e
a n d I th e n - th e n t h a n k e d h i m f o r h is o ff e r, b u t s a i d i t is n o t f o r h i m t o
o ffe r a n d i f t h e P r e s i d e n t w a n t s t o - to a p p o in t m e a s a n A m b a s s a d o r

20

t h e P r e s i d e n t is fr e e t o h a v e t h a t d is c u s s io n w i th m e a n d I t h i n k I - I
d i d s a y to h i m c a te g o r ic a ll y th a t y o u a n d I b o t h n e e d t o n o w a g r e e th a t
t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p i s ir r e v e r s i b ly b r o k e n d o w n b e t w e e n u s a n d t h a t I w o u ld
w a n t t o d is c u s s t h is m a t t e r n o w w i th t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d I s o u g h t h i s
p e r m is s io n t o - to g o a n d s e e t h e Pr e s id e n t . To d i s c u s s m y e x i t f r o m o r
m y e x i t fr o m th e d e p a r t m e n t .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u m e n t i o n i n - y o u m e n ti o n i n y o u r -

m a y I C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( N o a u d ib l e r e p l y ) .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u m e n ti o n in y o u r s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u r

r e a c ti o n to th e o ff e r f o r w a n t o f a b e t te r w o r d fo r th e m o m e n t w a s n o t
a n a t tr a c tiv e o n e i n a n y e v e n t . T h e o ff e r t o g o to J a p a n .
M R S H A I K : Ye s , b e c a u s e a t - a t t h a t t i m e u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e r e w a s t h e t h e n u c l e a r - t h e r e w a s a n e a r th q u a k e in J a p a n a n d t h e - t h e r e w a s a
n u c l e a r m e lt d o w n i n t e r m s o f th e - t h e r e a c t o r s a n d t h e r e w a s a b it o f
10

p a n ic . E v e n t h o u g h t h a t w a s a b it f a r fr o m To k y o . T h e r e w a s a b i t o f
p a n ic a b o u t w h a t a r e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s , b u t - s o J a p a n d id n o t a p p e a r
t o m e i n t h a t t i m e to b e a - a n a tt r a c t a b l e o ffe r.
I k n e w i ts i m p o r t a n c e . I t is - i t is a c o u n t r y in t h e G 7 . T h e ir t h e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p s w i t h A fr ic a . T h e r e la t io n s h i p w i t h S o u t h A fr ic a . S o I
k n e w i t w a s a n i m p o r ta n t p o s ti n g , b u t it w a s n o t a - a n a t tr a c t iv e o n e
f o r m e a t t h a t ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g a b o u t M i n is t e r C w e le

b e i n g S h a d o w M i n is t e r o f F o r e i g n A ff a ir s .

Te ll m e m o r e a b o u t w h a t -

what does that mean?
20

M R S H A I K : W e ll d u r in g m y ti m e a s H e a d o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e a n d y o u
w i ll u n d e r s t a n d s ir t h a t w e a r e a l m o s t v e r y p a r a l le l to - t o th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f F o r e ig n A ff a ir s o r i t i s n o w c a l le d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : C o r p o r a ti o n , b u t I d id fi n d t h e p r o p e n s i ty o f M i n is t e r C w e le

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
tr a v e l li n g a b r o a d to v a r i o u s c o u n tr i e s o ft e n i n - i n t h e c o m p a n y o f t h e
P r e s i d e n t a n d o f t e n in t h e c o m p a n y o f t h e M i n is t e r o f I n te r n a ti o n a l
R e l a t i o n s h i p s - I n t e r n a t io n a l R e l a t i o n s . I f o u n d t h a t t o b e o d d . O d d i n
t h e s e n s e t h a t th a t is n o t th e t a s k o f a M i n i s te r o f I n t e l li g e n c e a n d
a g a in i t - i t w a s r a is i n g t h is c o n c e r n i n m y o w n m i n d a b o u t w h a t d o e s a
M i n is t e r o f I n te ll i g e n c e d o a n d - b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e h e w a s a c t i n g a s a
S p e c ia l E n v o y.
A s ti m e h e w a s i n v o l v e d in m u l ti l a t e r a l is s u e s e t c e t e r a . I a m
not - so I am not saying that he does - should not have done that. I am
10

ju s t s a y i n g t h a t t h e le v e l a n d t h e a m o u n t o f tr ip s t h a t w e r e - w e r e b e i n g
c o n d u c t e d a n d t h e e n g a g e m e n ts .

I t c a m e a c r o s s to m e a s a S h a d o w

F o r e i g n A ff a ir s M i n is t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : A n d i t m a y b e . S o i t is n o t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : I t is n o t - n o t a g o o d th in g o r a b a d th i n g . I a m n o t g o i n g
p u t t in g i t l ik e th a t . I a m j u s t s a y i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SHAIK: It maybe so.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . N o . T h a t - t h a t is - t h a t is fi n e . I a m j u s t
t h i n k i n g th a t t h e n o ti o n o f a S h a d o w M i n is t e r …
MR SHAIK: Is that you are not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t n o t - is i t n o t a l w a y s a t t a c h e d t o t h e o p p o s it i o n
p a r t y ? O k a y. A lr i g h t. M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly m e e t w i th t h e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
P r e s i d e n t - b f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t?
M R S H A I K : I - I d i d . I - I m e t w i th f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And

b r ie f ly

what

occurred

at

that

m e e ti n g ?
M R S H A I K : A n d I p u t - I p u t to M r - I p u t t o th e P r e s i d e n t a n d I - a n d I
m u s t s a y t h a t I p u t i t i n a w a y t h a t d i d n o t o p e n a d is c u s s i o n . I p u t t o
t h e Pr e s i d e n t t h a t m y r e la t io n s h ip w i t h M i n is t e r C w e le i s - i s d o n e a n d
d u s te d . I a m n o t w i ll in g to g o b a c k a n d t h e q u e s ti o n a n d I t h e n s a i d t o
h i m in a j o v ia l k i n d o f w a y t h a t y o u k n o w a n d o f a ll th i n g s h e p o s t e d m e
10

- h e w a n t s t o p o s t t o m e t o J a p a n . Yo u k n o w.
T h e - s o t h e Pr e s i d e n t la u g h e d o n t h a t a n d I s a i d t o t h e
P r e s i d e n t y o u k n o w. H e n o w w a n ts t o t a k e y o u r j o b y o u k n o w. S o w e
h a d a l i g h t e x c h a n g e a b o u t t h e m a t te r a n d th e n s a i d to t h e Pr e s i d e n t
t h a t i f t h e r e w a s a n o th e r o ffe r - i f t h e r e w a s N e w Yo r k o r C a n a d a y o u
k n o w I w o u ld g i v e s e r i o u s c o n s i d e r a ti o n to i t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h y C a n a d a ?
M R S H A I K : C a n a d a b e c a u s e m y w o n d e r fu l, b e a u ti f u l s o u l m a t e m y w i fe
is C a n a d i a n a n d I th o u g h t th a t s h e h a s s p e n t a n e n o r m o u s a m o u n t o f
ti m e i n S o u th A f r i c a a n d th r o u g h a ll m y tr ia ls a n d tr i b u l a t i o n s . S o t h e

20

o n e g o o d th in g I c o u l d d o f o r h e r is to t a k e h e r a n d t h e k i d s t o C a n a d a
w h e r e a t l e a s t t h e c h i ld r e n c o u l d s p e n d m u c h m o r e ti m e w i th t h e
g r a n d p a r e n ts . S o C a n a d a w a s a t tr a c tiv e i n - i n t h a t r e g a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: So you - you came up with that idea?
M R S H A I K : I c a m e u p w i th t h a t i d e a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d w h a t w a s t h e Pr e s id e n t’s r e a c ti o n t o t h a t

part?
M R S H A I K : T h e Pr e s id e n t s m i l e d a n d in h is v e r y j o v i a l w a y s a y s l e a v e
it t o m e my b r o th e r. I w i ll s e e w h a t I c a n d o . I w i ll c o m e b a c k to y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n ? L e t u s c o n t in u e th e
s t o r y li n e .
M R S H A I K : S o a b o u t th r e e h o u r s l a te r I r e m e m b e r I w a s j u s t a b o u t to
10

g o t o b e d a n d I g o t a p h o n e c a l l fr o m t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f D I R C O .
A m b a s s a d o r J e r r y M a tj il a

who

is

now

the

Ambassador

in

U n it e d

N a t io n s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t fo r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s . D I R C O b e i n g ?
MR SHAIK:

Oh.

D I R C O b e in g t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f I n t e r n a t io n a l

R e l a t i o n s a n d C o o p e r a ti o n …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
M R S H A I K : A n d th e D G s a id to m e a n d w e s h a l l r e f e r t o e a c h o t h e r a s
Ambassadors.

S o h e w a s v e r y p o l it e .

He says Ambassador Shaik I

w o u ld li k e t o i n fo r m y o u t h a t w e h a v e - w e w i ll b e m o v in g th e
20

A m b a s s a d o r fr o m C a n a d a t o J a p a n .

T h e C a n a d i a n p o s t is n o w

a v a i la b le . W o u l d y o u g i v e u s y o u r a c c e p t a n c e o f th e p o s t?
I - I p u t th e p h o n e d o w n a n d - a n d I w a s in a s t a t e o f s h o c k
a n d t h e n I w i ll t e l l y o u w h y, b e c a u s e i t i s n o w - t h i s i s t h e fir s t d ir e c t
in d i c a t io n to m e t h a t i t is P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w h o r e a l ly w a n ts m e to le a v e
t h e I n t e ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s . I h a d t h a t d is c u s s io n w it h n o o n e e l s e , b u t

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a b o u t e it h e r N e w Yo r k o r - o r C a n a d a a n d w i th in h o u r s
o f t h a t p h o n e c a l l t h i n g s w e r e p u t in p l a c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : F o r - fo r m y l e a v i n g . S o I s a i d I w o u l d c o m e b a c k to h i m
t h e - my w i f e w a s v e r y e x c i te d a b o u t i t . S o w e h a d a f a m il y d i s c u s s i o n
w i t h t h e - w i th m y w if e ’s p a r e n ts .

S o w e c o u l d d is c u s s w h e t h e r w e

s h o u l d t a k e t h is o ff e r u p o r n o t a n d a f t e r d u e c o n s id e r a ti o n - a f t e r d u e
c o n s i d e r a ti o n I d e c l in e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

W h e n th e D G , Mr J e r r y M a t ji la , s p o k e to

you did he make any reference to the President, you have made the
p o i n t t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s th e o n ly p e r s o n t o w h o m y o u h a d
e x p r e s s e d t h is p r e f e r e n c e t h a t i f t h e o ffe r w a s i n r e la t io n t o N e w Yo r k
o r C a n a d a y o u c o u l d c o n s i d e r i t a n d i t s e e m s t h a t h e – w h a t h e s a i d to
y o u s e e m e d to b e b a s e d o n s o m e b o d y t e l li n g h i m o f p a r t o f y o u r
d is c u s s io n w i th

th e P r e s i d e n t , w h e th e r i t w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t o r

s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o g o t i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t w e d o n ’ t k n o w,
b u t d i d h e i n h i s c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h y o u s a y I h a v e b e e n a s k e d b y th e
P r e s i d e n t t o a p p r o a c h y o u f o ll o w i n g th e d is c u s s i o n y o u h a v e h a d w i t h
h i m o r a n y th i n g lik e t h a t ?
20

MR SHAIK:

N o h e d i d n o t , D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l , D G M a tj il a a t t h e t i m e d i d

n o t m a k e r e f e r e n c e to a n y d is c u s s i o n w it h t h e Pr e s i d e n t o r i n f a c t t h e
M i n is t e r, b u t h e d i d s a y to m e h e s a i d M o m a n y o u ’v e g o t a l o t o f p u ll
s o . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e a l o t o f ?
M R S H A IK :

P u ll , y o u k n o w, s o w e j o k e d a b o u t t h a t , b u t n o h e d id n ’t

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
m e n ti o n i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t h e s a id t o y o u if y o u d i d n ’ t t h i n k i t w a s

li n k e d to th e d is c u s s i o n y o u h a d w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t w o u ld h a v e b e e n
c o m i n g o u t o f th e b l u e ?
MR SHAIK:

Ye s i t w o u l d h a v e , j a , b u t I k n e w I h a d t h a t s o i t w a s y o u

k n o w I w a s ta k e n a b a c k b y t h e f a c t t h a t t h is h a p p e n e d s o s o o n , I w o u ld
h a v e e x p e c t e d a – t h e P r e s id e n t to c a l l m e t o s a y l is t e n I ’v e g iv e n i t
c o n s i d e r a ti o n e tc e te r a , b u t it w a s n o w p u t in m o t io n s o t o s p e a k .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

H m m , h m m , b u t y o u s a y a ft e r d u e c o n s i d e r a t io n y o u

d e c l in e d ?
M R S H A IK :

Ye s . A n d t h e c o n s id e r a ti o n w a s v e r y s i m p le t h a t a t t h e

ti m e , t h e t i m e i t w a s a n a g e t h i n g , I t h i n k I m u s t h a v e b e e n 5 2 o r 5 3
a n d i f I t o o k t h e p o s t in g I w o u l d h a v e r e tu r n e d a t t h e a g e o f a b o u t 5 7 .
A t t h e a g e o f 5 7 t o s ta r t a n e w c a r e e r w o u ld b e q u i t e c h a ll e n g i n g , I a m
n o t s a y i n g is i m p o s s i b l e .

S o I t h e n w e e v a l u a t e d i t a s a f a m ily fr o m

y e s a n d w e a p p r e c i a t e d t h e b e n e fi t o f i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n C a n a d a b u t
I f o r o n e w a n t e d t o m o v e o u t o f g o v e r n m e n t n o w, o r w a n t e d to m o v e o u t
o f th e s i t u a t io n o f i n s u ff e r a b l e m in is t e r s a n d to b e p u t b a c k i n a
p o s i ti o n w h e r e y o u n o w a s a n a m b a s s a d o r w i ll h a v e t o r e p o r t t o a
20

m i n is t e r

and

I

d id

not have

a

good

r e l a ti o n s h i p

with

M i n is t e r

M a s h a b a n e , a n d I d i d n o t w a n t t o b e i n a s it u a ti o n w h e r e I w o u l d j u s t
b e y o u k n o w h a v i n g to a c c e p t w h a te v e r i s c o m i n g to m e a n d n o t h a v in g
o p t io n s .
S o I e v a l u a t e d i t to g e t h e r w it h my w i f e a n d s h e w a s v e r y
g r a c i o u s in a c c e p ti n g th a t o k a y w e t u r n d o w n t h e o ff e r a n d w e w il l s t a r t

Page 34 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
a n e w li f e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d I u n d e r s t a n d , i t is n o t c o n tr o v e r s i a l ,

I c a n le a d y o u o n i t I p r e s u m e , th a t y o u r e s ig n e d i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 ?
MR SHAIK:

Ye s I d i d r e s ig n in F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 b u t l e t m e ju s t s a y o n

t h e r e s ig n a ti o n , b e c a u s e it w a s a n e g o t ia t e d m a t t e r, I fe l t t h e m o m e n t
w e t o o k t h e d e c i s i o n t o n o t a c c e p t th e p o s ti n g t o C a n a d a I h a d t o
in f o r m P r e s id e n t Z u m a th a t I a m d e c li n in g t h e o ff e r, I d i d n o t w a n t t o g o
t h r o u g h th e b a c k c h a n n e ls a n d s o I d i d h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h Pr e s i d e n t
10

Z u m a a n d t o l d h i m th a t I t h a n k h i m v e r y m u c h f o r th e o ff e r b u t I w i ll n o t
b e ta k i n g i t u p a n d a g a i n g a v e h i m t h e r e a s o n th a t y o u k n o w I w a n t to
g o b a c k in t o t h e p r iv a t e s e c to r a n d b u i ld a c a r e e r i n t h e p r iv a t e s e c to r.
A s lu c k w o u l d h a v e i t , a n d a s t h e U n i v e r s e w o u l d h a v e i t , a n
o p p o r t u n i ty a r o s e w h e r e I c o u ld p l a y a r o le i n th e D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k .
A n e w b a n k w a s b e in g e s t a b li s h e d a n d I w a s a s k e d t o c o n s id e r p la y i n g
a r o le i n th a t b a n k , b u t o n e o f th e r e q u ir e m e n ts w a s t h a t I w o u ld h a v e
t o u p g r a d e m y s k i lls in m a n a g e m e n t e tc e t e r a a n d i t w a s s u g g e s t e d t o
m e th a t I c o n s i d e r v a r i o u s i n s ti t u ti o n s w h e r e I w o u l d b e a b le to s p e n d a
s h o r t p e r i o d a n d a f te r c o n s u l ta t io n w i t h N i c k B in e d e l l f r o m G o r d o n

20

I n s ti t u te o f B u s in e s s i t w a s d e c i d e d t h a t , h e r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t I s h o u l d
g o t o H a r v a r d f o r t h e A d v a n c e M a n a g e m e n t P r o g r a m , w h ic h – b u t t h a t
w a s a v e r y e x p e n s i v e a ff a ir a n d i t th e n t u r n e d o n t h e is s u e o f h o w t h e
le n g t h o f th e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n th a t w e s i g n e d w h e n w e f ir s t j o i n e d i n
2009.
A t t h a t t i m e C a b i n e t h a s t a k e n a d e c is i o n t h a t a ll D ir e c t o r

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
G e n e r a ls s e r v e fo r a p e r i o d o f f iv e y e a r s , r a th e r t h a n a p e r io d o f t w o o r
t h r e e y e a r s , a n d i n l ig h t o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n r u li n g I t h e n a p p r o a c h e d
P r e s i d e n t Zu m a t o s a y m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th a t t h is c o n tr a c t i s f o r f iv e
y e a r s r a t h e r t h a n t h r e e y e a r s w h i c h i s w h a t M i n i s te r C w e le w a s
in s is t in g u p o n .

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s g r a c io u s , h e a g r e e d i t is a fi v e

y e a r c o n tr a c t, a n d th e n t h is a ll o w e d m e to n e g o t ia t e w i t h M i n is t e r
C w e le a s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t i n w h ic h I s e tt l e d o n a p a r ti c u l a r a m o u n t
b e t w e e n t h r e e a n d t h e fi v e y e a r b u t t h a t w ill a ll o w m o n ie s t o b e p a id t o
Harvard for my studies there.
10

I h a r b o u r e d u n d e r th e i ll u s io n th a t i f I

a p p li e d a s a n i n d iv id u a l to H a r v a r d B u s in e s s S c h o o l t h a t I m a y n o t g e t
a c c e p te d , s u b s e q u e n t ly I f o u n d t h a t y o u c o u l d d o t h a t , s o t h is is w h y
t h e S S A p a i d , a n d i t w a s i n c o r r e c tl y r e p o r t e d i n t h e n e w s p a p e r s t h a t –
it w a s s ta t e d i t w a s m o n i e s d u e t o m e w h ic h w e r e a d m in is t e r e d b y th e
S S A i n r e s p e c t o f p a y m e n t t o H a r v a r d B u s in e s s S c h o o l a n d o n r e t u r n
fr o m H a r v a r d I a p p li e d f o r a j o b i n t h e D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k o f S o u t h e r n
A fr ic a a n d I w a s s u c c e s s fu l i n g e t ti n g t h a t jo b .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

B e fo r e w e g o o n i n t i m e Mr S h a i k t o

c o m p le t e t h e p i c t u r e t h e r e w i ll b e d ir e c t e v id e n c e s h o r t ly i n r e l a ti o n t o
M r N je n je , d i d a n y s i m il a r o ffe r e m a n a te f r o m t h e a u th o r it i e s i n r e g a r d
20

to an ambassador post for him?
M R S H A IK :

Ye s , r o u n d a b o u t t h e s a m e t i m e , a n d I r e m e m b e r q u i te

c le a r ly th a t d ir e c t o r N j e n j e w a s m a d e a s i m il a r o ffe r t o a p o s t i n A f r i c a
a s A m b a s s a d o r t o th e p o s t a n d N j e n j e , a n d I m u s t s a y th is b e c a u s e
o ft e n it i s c o n s id e r e d th a t t h e t h r e e o f u s a r e i n d y n a m i c c o n s u l t a ti o n
w i t h e a c h o th e r, a r e m a r k a b l e f e a tu r e o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n th e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t h r e e o f u s is h o w li t t le w e c o n s u lt o n d e c is io n s t h a t w e a r r iv e a t b u t
y e t w e a ll s e e m to a r r i v e a t t h e s a m e d e c i s io n s ir.

N o n e o f th e m h a v e

e v e r to ld m e t o a c c e p t o r n o t a c c e p t t h e p o s i t io n a n d n e i th e r d i d I e v e r
m e n ti o n t o – o r d is c u s s w i t h Mr N j e n j e t h a t h e s h o u l d n o t a c c e p t t h e
p o s t. H e a r r iv e d a t h is d e c is io n in d e p e n d e n t o f m e a s i n d e p e n d e n t o f
o u r D G M a q e tu k a a s w e ll .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
MR SHAIK:

H e r e fu s e d t h e p o s t?

He refused the post.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

B e f o r e m o v i n g o n t h e r e ’s j u s t o n e m a tt e r

I n e e d t o d e a l w i t h b u t th is m a y e a t i n t o th e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u a r e r e a c ti n g t o t h e f a c t th a t I w a s l o o k i n g
lik e I w a n t e d t o s a y s o m e th in g a n d y o u t h o u g h t m a y b e I a m a b o u t t o
s a y is it n o t t e a ti m e . N o , I t h i n k I w a n t e d t o a s k s o m e t h i n g i n r e l a t i o n
t o t h a t la s t p o i n t .
A s f a r a s y o u k n o w – o r le t m e p u t i t th is w a y, y o u r d e p a r tu r e
fr o m I n t e l li g e n c e i n 2 0 1 2 , w a s i t a c o n s e q u e n c e o f y o u r c o n c l u s io n t h a t
y o u h a d lo s t o r t h a t y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p w i th M i n is t e r C w e le h a d
ir r e t r i e v a b ly b r o k e n d o w n a n d th a t y o u h a d l o s t t h e c o n fi d e n c e o f t h e
P r e s i d e n t o r w a s i t j u s t th e fa c t t h a t y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th M i n i s te r

20

C w e le h a d ir r e tr i e v a b ly b r o k e n d o w n ?
MR SHAIK:

I t h i n k i t w a s b o t h s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s b o t h ?
MR SHAIK:

I t w a s b o t h , a n d I u n d e r s t a n d i t , i t is t h e n a t u r e o f l i fe in

t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e W o r l d , b u t i t w a s b o t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h is a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e ?

Ye s le t u s t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , w e w i ll r e s u m e

at half past eleven.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u h a v e d e s c r i b e d t h i s
10

m o r n in g M r S h a ik h o w y o u r s e r v ic e s c a m e to a n e n d . I h e s it a t e t o p u t
a le g a l l a b e l o n h o w t h e la w w o u l d r e g a r d t h e t e r m in a ti o n o f y o u r
s e r v ic e s . It is n o t t o t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r e v id e n c e n o w. B u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u s h o u l d p u l l th e m ic r o p h o n e
c lo s e r t o y o u o r y o u s h o u ld r a i s e y o u r v o ic e b u t …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : My a p o l o g ie s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I h e s i ta t e to p u t a le g a l l a b e l o n th e

t e r m in a ti o n o f y o u r s e r v ic e s b u t I d o w is h t o a s k y o u i n y o u r o w n m i n d
w h a t w a s t h e c a u s e o f y o u r d i s m is s a l o r y o u r r e s i g n a t i o n w h a t e v e r
20

la b e l o n e w a n ts t o p u t o n i t ?
MR SHAIK:
departure

T h e – t h e – th e – I th in k t h e c o r r e c t l a b e l t o p u t t o m y
from

the

I n te ll i g e n c e

S e r v ic e s

was

an

ir r e tr ie v a b l e

b r e a k d o w n b e tw e e n M i n i s te r C w e l e a n d m y s e l f .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
M R S H A IK : Th e o r i g i n s o f w h ic h l i e s i n m e b e in g p a r t o f a d e c is i o n t o

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
in v e s t i g a t e t h e G u p t a ’s a n d f o r t h a t I h a v e n o d o u b t .

Th e – a n d o f

c o u r s e t h e e x i t w a s a n e l e g a n t e x i t in te r m s o f a n e g o ti a te d s e t t le m e n t
in r e s p e c t o f my r i g h ts i n t h e c o n tr a c t a n d m y in s is t e n c e t h a t t h e
c o n tr a c t w a s f o r f iv e y e a r s a n d n o t fo r t h r e e y e a r s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . A n d it i s c o r r e c t is i t n o t th a t t h e
t h r e e s e n io r e x e c u tiv e s i n t h e I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v i c e a t t h e t i m e e n d e d
t h e ir e m p l o y m e n t a r o u n d t h e s a m e t i m e ?
M R S H A I K : T h a t i s c o r r e c t Sir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o in g b a c k t o y o u r o w n d e p a r t u r e fr o m I n t e ll ig e n c e i n
10

2 0 1 2 y o u s a y t h e c a u s e w a s th e ir r e t r ie v a b le b r e a k d o w n o f y o u r
r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h M i n is te r C w e le a n d y o u s a y th e o r ig in s o f w h ic h w e r e
r e l a t e d to y o u r h a v i n g b e e n p a r t o f th e d e c is i o n t o i n v e s ti g a t e th e
G u p t a ’s ?
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? Ar e y o u a b l e to s a y w h a t e ls e th e t w o
o f y o u c o u ld n o t a g r e e u p o n t h a t c h a r a c t e r i s e d th is b r e a k d o w n o r t h a t
c o n tr i b u t e d t o t h is b r e a k d o w n o r i s i t r e a lly th a t d i ffe r e n c e o f o p in io n
o n t h e – o n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f t h e G u p t a ’s a n d w h a t e v e r e ls e c a m e
h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h a t r e a lly w a s a t t a c h e d t o t h a t ?

20

M R S H A IK :

I t h in k t h e – t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n t h e G u p t a ’s w a s a

s ig n if ic a n t m a t te r. T h e r e w a s a – a – a – a h u g e tu r n i n g p o i n t in t h e
r e l a ti o n s h i p . B e c a u s e u p u n ti l th a t p o i n t t h e r e w a s s t il l a p o s s i b ili t y o f
a p p e a l t o t h e P r e s i d e n t th a t M i n i s te r C w e l e is n o t t o ta ll y u n d e r s t a n d in g
o f t h e – h is p o r t f o l i o a n d – b u t a f t e r t h e – t h e G u p ta i s s u e s o t o s p e a k
t h e – c le a r ly i t i s M i n i s t e r C w e l e w h o h a d th e c o n f id e n c e o f t h e

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P r e s i d e n t a n d w e a n d a s c o n s e q u e n c e m e d id n o t h a v e t h e c o n f i d e n c e
o f th e Pr e s id e n t.

S o t h a t w a s a s i g n i fi c a n t tu r n i n g p o i n t . B u t t h e r e

w e r e o t h e r is s u e s a s w e l l a n d I w o u l d g i v e a f e w o f t h o s e . O n e is t h e r e
w a s a n e l e c ti o n in r e g a r d t o C o te d ’l v o ir e in w h ic h t h e e l e c ti o n w a s
c o n te s t e d b e t w e e n G b a g b o th e in c u m b e n t P r e s i d e n t a t th e ti m e a n d
Q u a t t a r a w h o w a s a Pr e s i d e n t c o m in g fr o m th e N o r t h .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

C o u ld y o u s p e ll th o s e n a m e s fo r t h e

r e c o r d p le a s e ? C a n y o u ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w G b a g b o is q u it e d i ff ic u l t t o s p e ll .
10

MR SHAIK:

G b a g b o is d i ff ic u l t g iv e n t h e l a n g u a g e th e r e a n d I th in k

Q u a t t a r a is Q u a tt a r a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R S H A I K : S o t h e f ir s t r o u n d o f t h e e l e c t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k G b a g b o w a s I t h i n k it s t a r ts w it h a G .
M R S H A I K : I t s t a r ts w i t h a G
CHAIRPERSON: And a B.
MR SHAIK: Gbagbo.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
M R S H A I K : S o t h e f ir s t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : W a s t h a t a t e s t ? S o t h e f ir s t
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u p a s s e d .
M R S H A I K : J a t h e – th e f ir s t r o u n d o f th e e l e c t io n s G b a g b o lo s t – w o n
t h e fir s t r o u n d a n d Q u a t t a r a lo s t a n d i t w a s a – q u i t e a c lo s e m a r g in
a n d t h e n th e s e c o n d r o u n d o f t h e e le c ti o n s w e r e h e l d i n w h i c h Q u a t ta r a

Page 40 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w o n . T h e in f o r m a ti o n I r e c e iv e d in m y c a p a c i ty a s H e a d o f th e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e w a s t h a t n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e i s s u e s a r o u n d th e fr e e a n d
f a ir n e s s o f th e e l e c ti o n th a t th e – th e r e s u lt s g e n e r a ll y is t h a t Q u a t ta r a
w o n th e e l e c ti o n . T h e U N c a m e o u t i n s u p p o r t o f Q u a t t a r a E q u Aw a s
w h ic h i s t h e – t h e W e s t A fr ic a n
CHAIRPERSON: The regional.
M R S H A IK :

The regional – regional body came out in support of

Q u a t t a r a a n d th e q u e s ti o n i s w h a t w a s S o u th A f r i c a ’s p o s i ti o n g o i n g to
b e ? Th e M i n i s t e r w a s o f t h e v i e w to g e th e r w i t h o th e r s t h a t G b a g b o w o n
10

t h e e l e c ti o n a n d n o t Q u a tt a r a a n d I w a s o f t h e v ie w t h a t t o g e t h e r w i t h
o th e r s t h a t ir r e s p e c ti v e w h o w o n th e e l e c ti o n t h a t t h e fa c t o f t h e U n i t e d
N a t io n s h a s e x p r e s s e d a v i e w o n i t i t i s i n o u r m u l t il a te r a l i n t e r e s t to g o
w i t h th e o u tc o m e o f t h e – th e Q u a tt a r a e l e c t io n . S o t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e
m a jo r – o n e o f th e d is a g r e e m e n ts .

Th e o t h e r c o n c e r n s th e – t h e

a p p o i n t m e n t o r th e lo b b y f o r N k o s a z a n a D l a m i n i Z u m a t o a s s u m e t h e
c h a ir o r t h e A f r ic a n U n i o n .

I a n d a g a in w i t h o t h e r s w e r e o f t h e v i e w

t h a t i t m a y n o t b e i n S o u t h A fr ic a ’s m e d i u m t o l o n g t e r m i n t e r e s t fo r u s
t o – t o l o b b y f o r t h a t p o s i t io n g iv e n t h e k i n d o f p r o to c o l t h a t e x is ts th a t
w e d o c o n s i d e r o u r s e l v e s a s a s i g n i f ic a n t p o w e r o n t h e c o n ti n e n t a n d i t
20

is n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r u s t o g o f o r t h e p o s i t i o n . I t w i ll c a u s e a – a k i n d o f
d iv i d e a l o n g Fr a n c o p h o n ie a n d o t h e r l i n e s . A n d I w a s o f t h e v i e w t h a t
w e s h o u l d a v o i d t h a t c o n fl ic t . Th e M i n is t e r a n d o t h e r s w e r e o f th e v ie w
t h a t w e s h o u l d lo b b y f o r t h a t p o s i ti o n a n d t h a t w e s h o u l d g o f o r t h a t
p o s i ti o n .

S o t h a t w a s a n o th e r e x a m p l e w h e r e w e d i s a g r e e d o n p o l ic y

is s u e s . A n d t h e r e a r e a f e w o t h e r s l ik e t h a t w h e r e w e h a d s i g n i fic a n t

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
d is a g r e e m e n t s a n d o f c o u r s e i t j u s t b e c a m e c l e a r to m e t h a t m y v i e w s
o r my a c t io n s w e r e in c r e a s i n g ly b r o u g h t u n d e r t h e m ic r o s c o p e . Th e r e
is o n e is s u e th a t b r o k e th e c a m e l ’s b a c k .

I t is a n a ll e g a t io n t h a t t h e

M i n is t e r m a d e i n r e s p e c t o f my o w n lo y a l ty t o t h e c o u n tr y.

He was

s p r e a d in g a r u m o u r o r d i s i n fo r m a ti o n a b o u t – t h a t I w o r k fo r a n o th e r
g o v e r n m e n t s e c r e t s e r v ic e s w h ic h is n o t t r u e .

I a m – a n d th e r e a s o n

w h y I a m b e in g a b i t v a g u e a b o u t i t S ir a n d I a m g o in g to ta k e t h e p u n t .
I h a v e w r i t te n a b o o k w h e r e m o s t o f t h i s i s th e r e . B u t f o r th e p u r p o s e s
o f t h i s c o m m is s i o n I w o u l d s a y t h a t y e s h e – h e a ls o b r o u g h t m y l o y a lt y
10

t o t h e c o u n t r y i n q u e s ti o n .

B u t I to o k c o m f o r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t t h e

p e o p l e c lo s e t o m e a n d in p a r t ic u l a r m y t w o c o ll e a g u e s w e r e d i s m is s iv e
o f t h a t a l l e g a ti o n a n d n o th i n g – n o t h i n g c a m e o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a s o n w h y I a s k e d t h a t q u e s t io n w a s j u s t t o s e e
w h e t h e r th is w a s s i m p ly a s i t u a t io n w h e r e m a y b e it c o u l d b e a r g u e d
t h a t y o u w e r e p u s h i n g f o r s o m e th i n g t o b e d o n e o r t h i n g s t o b e d o n e
t h a t w e r e l a w f u l a n d th a t m a y b e h i s a p p r o a c h w a s d i ff e r e n t in r e g a r d t o
that.

O r w h e t h e r i t is a s it u a ti o n w h e r e m a y b e s o m e t h i n g s m i g h t fi t

in t o o n e p e r s o n p u s h in g fo r s o m e t h i n g t h a t is l a w f u l a n o t h e r o n e
p u s h i n g fo r a d i ff e r e n t t h in g . A n d o t h e r t h i n g s w h i c h h a v e g o t n o t h i n g
20

t o d o w i t h w h a t is le g a l w h a t is n o t l e g a l b u t s i m p ly o p e r a t io n a l is s u e s
a n d p o li c y i s s u e s t h a t m i g h t h a v e d iv id e d t h e t w o o f y o u .
MR SHAIK: Sure.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o b u t fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g it l o o k s lik e t h e r e

w e r e – th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a n u m b e r o f is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o p o li c y
w h e r e y o u – t h e tw o o f y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e a g r e e d .

Page 42 of 185

Or maybe some

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e s a s w e l l, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R S H A I K : T h e – t h a t i s – t h a t is c o r r e c t . O n th e p o l ic y i s s u e s p o li c y
d is s o n a n c e o r p o l ic e c o n te s t a ti o n i s a n in c r e d i b ly g o o d th in g in p o l ic y
f o r m u l a ti o n . S o h a v i n g d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c t i v e s b u t o f c o u r s e g iv e n th e –
t h e v e r y u n i q u e p o s i ti o n o f i n t e l li g e n c e y o u r p o l ic y p o s tu r e m u s t t a k e
in t o a c c o u n t a ll c o n s id e r a ti o n s a n d y o u h a v e g o t t o n o t o n ly s e e k th e
s h o r t t e r m b e n e fi t , y o u g o t t o s e e t h e m e d i u m a n d l o n g te r m
c o n s e q u e n c e s a n d I – I w a s i n c r e a s i n g ly g e t t in g a s e n s e t h a t M i n is t e r
C w e le a n d t h e n l a te r o n P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s a p p l y i n g s h o r t t e r m is m
10

a n d ta k i n g s h o r t te r m b e n e fi ts w i t h o u t d u e c o n s i d e r a t i o n t o t h e m e d iu m
a n d l o n g t e r m c o n s e q u e n c e s o f t h o s e b e n e f i ts .

Because there is no

fr e e l u n c h a s w e h a v e d i s c o v e r e d fr o m S a x o n w o l d .

B u t t h e i m p o r ta n t

t h i n g i s in in t e l li g e n c e y o u w e lc o m e d is a g r e e m e n t , y o u w e lc o m e
c o n te s t a ti o n , y o u w e lc o m e d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c ti v e s b e c a u s e y o u a r e
e n r ic h e d b y t h a t p r o c e s s .

A n d t h is is w h y I s a y t h a t M i n is te r C w e le

la c k o f e x p e r ie n c e in t h e in t e l li g e n c e w o r l d s t a r t e d t o s h o w a n d i t
s t a r t e d to h a v e a n e ff e c t b e c a u s e o f t h e r o le h e w a s p la y i n g s o c l o s e t o
t h e P r e s i d e n t , s o c l o s e to t h e f o r e i g n M i n is t r y.

It s ta r t e d to h a v e a n

e ffe c t o n th e c h o ic e s w e w e r e m a k i n g i n t h e N a ti o n a l I n t e r e s t . A n d o f
20

c o u r s e th a t d i d n o t s i t v e r y w e l l w i th m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u c a t e g o r is e y o u r d e p a r tu r e fr o m i n t e l li g e n c e
in 2 0 1 2 i n t h e t e r m s o f y o u h a v i n g b e e n p u s h e d o u t o r i n t h e t e r m s o f
y o u h a v i n g d e c i d e d t o w i t h d r a w in t h e li g h t o f th e s i tu a ti o n th a t y o u
have described?
MR SHAIK: I was pushed out.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e p u s h e d o u t ?
M R S H A I K : B u t – I w a s p u s h e d o u t b u t t h e y – t h e r e is a w o n d e r f u l –
t h e r e is a w o n d e r f u l s a y i n g t h e – I t h i n k M i n i s te r – M i n i s t e r C w e l e
t h o u g h t h e c o u ld b u r y m e . H e ju s t d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d th a t I a m a s e e d ,
I g r o w. I d o n o t y o u k n o w – s o I g r e w a n d I g r e w o u t o f th a t s i t u a t io n .
I f o u n d a n e le g a n t e x i t a n d j a th e – I a m b e tt e r o ff i n th e p o s i t io n t h a t I
am today than I was then.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Mr Pretorius.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

O f c o u r s e t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h y o u

t e s ti fi e d y o u w e r e tr e a t e d p a r t ic u l a r ly b y M in is te r C w e l e m a y h a v e b e e n
a result of the breakdown rather than the cause of it, do you have any
c o m m e n t t h a t p o s s i b il it y ?
MR SHAIK:

Ye s a g a i n I w o u l d g o b a c k i f I l o o k a t a ll th e p o s s i b le

s ig n if ic a n t c a u s e s I w o u l d h a v e t o c o n c l u d e t h a t t h e – b e i n g p a r ty t o
t h e d e c is i o n t o in v e s ti g a t e th e G u p t a ’s w a s t h e s i g n i fic a n t c a u s e .
E v e r y th i n g th a t r e s u l te d f r o m t h a t m o m e n t w a s a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f
t h a t b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e tr u s t l e v e ls w e r e i n v a r i a b l y b r o k e n o n th a t
le v e l.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

A t t h e t i m e o f y o u l e a v i n g t h e s e r v ic e ,

I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e d i d y o u h a v e a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i t h a n y o f t h e
Gupta brothers?
MR SHAIK:

Ye s .

I d i d h a v e a c o m m u n ic a ti o n .

W h e n th e – I th in k it

w a s j u s t t h e m e d i a a n d I t h i n k it w a s t h e M a il a n d G u a r d i a n w a s g o in g
t o w r i t e a s t o r y t h a t t h e G u p ta ’s w e r e b e h i n d m y fir i n g o r o u r fir i n g fr o m
t h e I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s . I r e c e i v e d a p h o n e c a ll fr o m M r A ja y G u p t a .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
H e id e n ti fi e d h i ms e lf a s M r A j a y G u p t a a n d s a i d t o m e th a t t h e M a i l a n d
G u a r d i a n is g o i n g to b e w r i t in g a s t o r y a b o u t – t h a t h e – o r th e y w e r e
b e h in d m y f ir i n g a n d t h a t h e w o u l d li k e m e – a n d o f c o u r s e h e t h e n s a i d
– a n d m y b r o t h e r y o u k n o w w e a r e f a m il y. S o I h a d t o c o r r e c t M r G u p t a
a n d s a y, I a m s o r r y w e a r e f a m ily. H e t h e n s a i d y e s b u t y o u k n o w w h a t
I m e a n . I h a d t o c o r r e c t h i m a g a i n s a y s I r e a l ly d o n o t k n o w w h a t y o u
m e a n . A n d th e n h e s a i d , w e ll y o u k n o w I s h o u ld te ll t h e m e d i a t h a t t h i s
is n o t t r u e . A n d I s a id M r G u p t a t h e d i ffic u l ty I h a v e w i t h t h a t is th a t I
d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t is n o t t r u e a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is tr u e .
10

S o a ll I a m p r e p a r e d to s a y t o t h e m e d ia a n d w h i c h is w h a t I d i d s a y
w a s n o c o m m e n t t h a t I h a v e n o c o m m e n t t o m a k e o n th e m a t te r. A n d
t h a t w a s i t . B u t h e a t t e m p te d t o g e t m e t o a g r e e o r g e t m e to s a y t h a t
h e w a s n o t b e h i n d m y fir in g .

O f c o u r s e w h a t h e d i d n o t k n o w a t th e

ti m e is t h a t h e h a d o n v a r io u s o c c a s i o n s t o a t l e a s t o n e p e r s o n t h a t I
k n o w a l l u d e d t o th e fa c t t h a t y o u k n o w t h e y w o u l d r e a ll y w a n te d to g e t
m e o u t o f t h e I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s .
CHAIRPERSON: He had?
MR SHAIK:

H e h a d m e n ti o n e d to a – a p e r s o n i n th e In t e l li g e n c e

S e r v ic e s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SHAIK:

T h a t I a m p a r t o f a g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h o is p la n n i n g to

remove Zuma.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d th e y h a v e g o t t o r e m o v e m e fr o m t h e s e r v ic e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A IK : O f c o u r s e a t t h e t i m e I d i d n o t p a y m u c h a tt e n ti o n t o it . I
w a s d i s mi s s iv e o f i t b e c a u s e I d i d n o t b e l ie v e a n d I m u s t – I m u s t b e
q u i te h o n e s t I d i d n o t – I d i d n o t r e a l ly b e li e v e a t t h a t t i m e th a t th e
G u p t a ’s h a d th a t m u c h i n fl u e n c e o n s ta t e o f a ff a ir s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : I a lw a y s c o n s i d e r e d t h e m n o t to b e q u it e o p e n a b o u t i t. I
c o n s i d e r e d t h e m to b e h a n g e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A IK :
10

T h a t y o u n o r m a ll y g e t in – y o u k n o w i n th e p o li ti c a l

p r o c e s s e s e tc e t e r a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : B u t I – I d id n o t k n o w o f t h e e n o r m o u s i n fl u e n c e th a t t h e y
wielded.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. Do you know whether the person to whom
t h a t w a s s a i d m a y b e p r e p a r e d t o te s ti fy ?
M R S H A I K : I w i ll c o n s u l t a c c o r d i n g l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll c o n s u l t. Ye s p l e a s e t h a n k y o u a n d th e n b e i n
t o u c h w i t h th e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m is s i o n .
M R S H A I K : W i ll d o .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A f t e r y o u r r e tu r n f r o m H a r v a r d I

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d a s t h e G r o u p E x e c u tiv e o f t h e
I n t e r n a ti o n a l U n i t o f t h e D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k o f S o u t h e r n A fr ic a , is t h a t
correct?
MR SHAIK: That is correct.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u o c c u p i e d th a t p o s t fr o m A u g u s t 2 0 1 2
u n t il y o u r e a r ly r e tir e m e n t i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 ?
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

In March 2016 were you aware of a

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s s u b m it t e d t o t h e S e c r e ta r y G e n e r a l o f t h e A N C
M r G w e d e M a n t a s h e a d d r e s s e d t o h i m a n d t h e A N C b y s e n io r
c o m m a n d e r s a n d c o m m i s s a r s o f t h e f o r m e r M il i ta r y w i n g o f t h e A N C
N k o n t o Is i z w e ?
M R S H A I K : Ye s I a m a w a r e o f t h a t .
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s y o u r in v o lv e m e n t i n r e l a ti o n to
that memorandum?
M R S H A I K : T h e – I w a s a s k e d b y G e n e r a l S i p h i w e N y a n d a to – t o d r a f t
t h a t m e m o r a n d u m a n d h e p r o v id e d th e in p u t a n d m y t a s k w a s t o d r a f t i t
u p a n d s e n d i t t o h i m f o r a p p r o v a l w h i c h – w h ic h I d id .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . C h a i r t h a t m e m o r a n d u m h a s b e e n
d e a lt w i t h i n e v i d e n c e a t s o m e le n g th .

I a m n o t s u r e th a t it i s

n e c e s s a r y u n l e s s y o u w is h to g o i n t o a n y m o r e d e t a i l i n t h a t r e g a r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I d o n o t t h in k t h e r e is a n y – i t is n e c e s s a r y u n l e s s
t h e w it n e s s h a s a n y t h i n g h e w a n t s to h i g h l ig h t in [ in d is ti n c t ] b u t
20

o th e r w i s e w e h a v e – I h a v e h e a r d e v id e n c e o n i t .
M R S H A I K : N o , n o S ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I p r e s u m e a s t h e d r a ft e r o r o n e o f t h e

d r a f t e r s o f th e m e m o r a n d u m y o u s t a n d b y i ts c o n te n ts ?
M R S H A I K : Ye s I d o .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

Th e m e m o r a n d u m m a d e r e f e r e n c e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
a m o n g s t o th e r th i n g s t o t h e r e m o v a l o f M i n is t e r N e n e fr o m h i s p o s t o f
Fi n a n c e M i n is t e r i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d h is p r o p o s e d r e d e p lo y m e n t t o
the BRICS New Development Bank.
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d o y o u k n o w fr o m y o u r in v o lv e m e n t
in t h e b a n k i n g s e c t o r o f t h e s o c a ll e d o ff e r t h a t w a s m a d e to M i n is t e r
N e n e o f a p o s i ti o n i n t h e B R I C S b a n k ?
M R S H A IK : Ye s . C h a ir j u s t a s a w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d . I n m y c a p a c it y
a s a G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e o f th e D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k o f S o u t h e r n A fr ic a I h a d
10

r e a s o n t o b e m a d e a w a r e o f t h e d is c u s s i o n s in r e g a r d t o th e f o r m a t io n
o f t h e N e w D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k . I t h a s a l o n g h is t o r y a n d th e D B S A h a d
played

an

c o n s tr u c ti o n

in s t r u m e n t a l
and

the

Development Bank.

role

in

d e b a te s

all
about

of

the
the

d is c u s s i o n s
bank

i ts e l f ,

and
the

th e
New

S o t h e N e w D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k h a s s h a r e h o ld e r s

w h ic h s i ts a t th e l e v e l o f th e P r e s i d e n t s o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d th e y a r e t h e
s h a r e h o l d e r s o f e ffe c t o f t h e b a n k . T h e n i t i s – i ts n e x t g o v e r n in g b o d y
is th e B o a r d o f G o v e r n a n c e a n d i n th e B o a r d o f G o v e r n a n c e is w h e r e
t h e M i n i s t e r s o f F in a n c e s i t .

A n d b e l o w t h a t t h e n i s t h e Pr e s i d e n t o f

t h e b a n k a n d h i s m a n a g e m e n t t e a m . S o I w a n t e d ju s t t o e x p la i n t h o s e
20

t h r e e le v e ls o f g o v e r n a n c e t o s e e w h e r e t h is is l e a d in g t o .

So

M i n is t e r …
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry I must just make sure I understand.

I

s o m e t i m e s g e t c o n fu s e d b e t w e e n w h a t I b e l ie v e is a b a n k th a t w e h a v e
in S o u th A fr ic a t h a t h a s g o t d e v e lo p m e n t a s w e ll a n d th e n t h e – w h a t I
r e fe r t o a s th e B R I C S B a n k .

Page 48 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e B R I C S B a n k n o w ?
M R S H A I K : W e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e s a m e b a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t is t h e s a m e .
M R S H A I K : I t is c a ll e d th e N e w D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k o r o t h e r w is e k n o w n
a s th e B R I C S B a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . O k a y.
M R S H A IK : S o – f o r j u s t t o k e e p i t o n t h e s a m e la n g u a g e w e w i ll r e fe r
it t o a s t h e B R I C S B a n k .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SHAIK:

S o t h e B R I C S B a n k h a s th e s h a r e h o l d e r s , t h e fi r s t l e v e l.

T h e s e c o n d l e v e l is t h e B o a r d o f G o v e r n a n c e w h ic h i s c o n s ti t u te d b y
t h e M i n is te r s o f Fi n a n c e o f t h e fo u r – o r t h e f iv e c o u n t r i e s . B e l o w t h a t
t h e n i s t h e Pr e s id e n t o f th e b a n k it s e l f w h o i s e ff e c ti v e ly t h e C E O o f th e
b a n k a n d w it h h is o r h e r m a n a g e m e n t t e a m .
w a s e n v is a g e d .

S o t h is is h o w t h e b a n k

I ts h e a d q u a r t e r s w a s g o i n g t o b e i n S h a n g h a i C h i n a .

A n d d u r i n g t h i s n e g o t i a t i o n s a b o u t t h e B R IC S B a n k t h e q u e s ti o n o f a
r e g i o n a l o ff ic e – a r e g i o n a l o ff ic e o f t h e B R IC S B a n k to b e e s t a b l is h e d
in A fr ic a a s a s t a r ti n g p o i n t .
20

And it took a lot of lobbying and

e v e n t u a l ly i t w a s a g r e e d t h a t t h e R e g io n a l B a n k w i ll b e s e t u p in S o u th
A fr ic a . N o w t h e R e g i o n a l B a n k i s p r e c is e l y t h a t . I t i s a r e g io n a l b a n k .
I t i s a b r a n c h o f t h e N e w D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k o r o f th e B R I C S B a n k . A n d
t h e d e c i s i o n o f w h o w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n w h o h e a d s t h a t r e g io n a l b a n k
is a d e c i s i o n o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e b a n k i ts e l f .

Not even the

g o v e r n a n c e . It w i ll o f c o u r s e a ll – a l l d e c i s io n s o f i m p o r ta n c e w il l g o t o

Page 49 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t h e g o v e r n a n c e fo r r a t i fic a ti o n b u t t h e in t e r v ie w s , t h e c h o ic e e tc e t e r a
w i ll d o n e b y t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e N e w D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k o r t h e
B R I C S B a n k . A n d i t i s n o t a s e p a r a t e b a n k . I t is n o t a s e p a r a te b a n k .
I t is n o t a s e p a r a t e e n t it y fr o m t h e N e w D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k i t is a n
o ffic e o f t h e r e g io n a l b a n k .

A n d a s s u c h t h e – t h e p o s it i o n w a s

a d v e r t is e d a n d p e o p l e – th e r e i s a p r o c e s s t h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e
N e w D e v e lo p m e n t B a n k a p p o i n t e d a h e a d h u n t in g t e a m . Th e y h e a d
h u n t e d a n d p e o p l e h a d t o a p p l y e tc e te r a , e tc e t e r a . T h e – t h e r e w a s n o
w a y a s h a r e h o ld e r c o u ld i m p o s e o n t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e b a n k a
10

n o m i n e e f o r r e g i o n a l o ff ic e r w i t h o u t v io la t i n g t h e c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e
is s u e s o f th e b a n k i ts e l f . T h e – i t is j u s t n o t d o n e a n d it is n o t g o o d i n
terms of banking and it is not good in terms of the governance issues
a n d t h a t w il l a ffe c t – i t w o u ld h a v e a ff e c te d th e r a t in g o f th e b a n k i t s e l f.
I f s h a r e h o l d e r s a r e m a k i n g d e c is i o n s a b o u t w h o th e e m p lo y e e s o f t h e
b a n k s o t o b e q u i te c l e a r t h e r e g io n a l b r a n c h o f t h e N e w D e v e l o p m e n t
B a n k i s a n e m p l o y e e o f th e N e w D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th e m e m o r a n d u m to w h ic h w e h a v e j u s t

r e fe r r e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a ls o m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e
c o n d u c t o f t h e H a w k s a n d t h e ir in v e s t i g a ti o n o f t h e s o c a ll e d R o g u e
20

U n i t a n d S A R S . N o w a g a i n w e d o n o t n e e d t o g o i n to t h a t c a t e g o r y o f
is s u e b u t i t d o e s r a i s e a n is s u e w i t h w h ic h t h e c o m m i s s io n m a y b e
concerned at the end of the day to assess.

A n d th a t i s th e u s e o f

I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s o r Q u a s i - I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d d is in f o r m a ti o n .
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s o n th a t ?

Yo u h a v e m e n t io n e d i t b r ie f ly

before but …

Page 50 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : If y o u h a v e a n y t h i n g t o a d d p le a s e d o ?
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u d o s o p le a s e d o n o t f o r g e t th e q u e s ti o n .

D o n o t f o r g e t t h is q u e s ti o n .
M R S H A I K : Ye s [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t b e f o r e y o u d e a l w it h i t I w a n t to g o b a c k to t h e

q u e s t io n o f Mr N e n e a n d t h e p o s t t h a t h e w a s s a id to b e d e p l o y e d t o in
t h e B R I C S B a n k b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h a t y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A f e w m i n u t e s a g o , is i t n o t ? Ye s . By th e w a y d o y o u
r e c a l l w h a t th e p o s it i o n w a s b e i n g c a l le d ? W a s t h e r e a t it l e o f w h a t t h e
p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t h e w a s s a id t o ?
M R S H A I K : I t h i n k it w a s th e H e a d o f R e g io n a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh just Head of
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

Now when you speak as you have done

e x p l a i n in g t h e s t r u c tu r e o f th e b a n k a n d t h e – w h o s i ts w h e r e y o u d o in g
s o n o w fr o m c e r t a i n l y y o u r k n o w l e d g e a s s o m e b o d y fr o m w i t h i n ?
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b a n k , is th a t r i g h t .
MR SHAIK: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w t h e – th a t th o s e a r e t h e s tr u c t u r e s .
MR SHAIK: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o o n a n d s o o n . A n d y o u a r e f a m il ia r w i t h t h e –
w i t h t h e r e g u l a ti o n s w i t h w h a te v e r i n s tr u m e n t s m u s t b e fo ll o w e d i n … .

Page 51 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
MR SHAIK: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e f il li n g o f p o s i ti o n s i n c l u d i n g s u c h a p o s i t io n . S o
y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t t h e r e le v a n t in s tr u m e n ts g o v e r n i n g t h e a p p o i n t m e n t
o f p e r s o n n e l i n c l u d i n g s o m e b o d y w h o w o u l d o c c u p y th a t p o s i t io n o f
H e a d o f t h e R e g i o n a l B a n k d i d n o t p e r m i t t h a t a s h a r e h o l d e r c o u ld s a y
here is somebody who must be appointed without – and the bank
a g r e e i n g t o d o t h a t w i t h o u t b e in g i n b r e a c h o f it s o w n r e g u l a ti o n s o r
in s t r u m e n ts . Is th a t r i g h t?
MR SHAIK: Correct.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o – s o w i th y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f t h e i n s tr u m e n ts
t h a t g o v e r n a p p o in t m e n ts i n t h e b a n k a r e y o u a b l e t o m a k e s e n s e o f t h e
a n n o u n c e m e n t a t t h e ti m e th a t M i n is te r N e n e w a s n o t g o in g t o c o n ti n u e
a s M in is t e r o f Fi n a n c e b e c a u s e h e w a s g o i n g to b e d e p lo y e d i n t h a t
p o s i ti o n . O r is it s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b le to u n d e r s t a n d h o w i t
w o u ld h a p p e n ?
M R S H A I K : J a . I t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e t o m e i n m y e x p e r ie n c e n o w n o
lo n g e r a s I n t e l li g e n c e b u t a s a b a n k e r. I t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e t o m e a t
a l l th a t w o u l d – c o u l d fi r s tl y h a p p e n .

B u t s e c o n d ly i t d i d n o t m a k e

s e n s e t o m e t h a t M i n i s te r N e n e w o u l d a c c e p t th a t . B e c a u s e h e s e r v e d
20

a s th e – t h e – a s a G o v e r n o r o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n a h i g h e r p o s i t io n .
M R S H A IK : O n t h e h i g h e r p o s it i o n a n d n o w h e w a s g o i n g t o b e ta k i n g
a c o n s i d e r a b l y l o w e r p o s i t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d th a t w o u l d n o t m a k e - w o u l d n o t h a v e m a d e s e n s e t o

Page 52 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
me …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : I f I w a s in t h a t p o s i t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d I - I d i d n o t s e e h o w M i n is t e r N e n e w o u l d h a v e t a k e n
u p t h a t p o s i t io n i n a n y e v e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l h e s a y s i n h is s t a t e m e n t w h ic h is s u b m i t te d t o

t h e C o m m i s s io n .

I t h i n k a ls o in y o u r e v i d e n c e .

He makes the same

p o i n t t h a t h e w a s a lr e a d y s e r v in g i n a h ig h e r p o s i ti o n …
10

MR SHAIK: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON:
recall

c o r r e c tl y.

A n d t h is w o u l d - t h is w a s a l o w e r p o s i ti o n , b u t i f I
Either

at

the

time

of

that

announcement

or

s u b s e q u e n t ly w h e n t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s a n s w e r i n g q u e s t i o n s i n
t h e N a ti o n a l A s s e m b ly o n t h e d e c is io n . I s e e m t o r e c a ll t h a t t h e i d e a
a s h e a r ti c u la t e d i t w a s - w e n e e d i n t h a t b a n k o r i n t h a t p o s i ti o n . W e
n e e d s o m e b o d y.

One of our own and we need a good performer and

t h a t i s w h y w e a r e s e n d in g h i m t h e r e .
MR SHAIK: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o y o u s a y, b u t i n te r ms o f th e in s tr u m e n ts o f t h e
20

b a n k y o u c a n n o t s e e h o w i t w o u l d h a p p e n q u i te a p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t
it w a s a lo w e r p o s i ti o n fo r h i m ?
M R S H A I K : T h a t i s my e v id e n c e , s ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d - a n d ju s t b y t h e w a y w e h a v e - S o u t h A fr i c a h a s t h e
p o s i ti o n f o r n o w o f t h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o f th e N e w D e v e lo p m e n t

Page 53 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
B a n k . W h o is a ls o I t h i n k c o n s i d e r e d a s a Vic e P r e s i d e n t to t h e B a n k
w h o w a s n o m in a te d b y M i n is te r N e n e . H is n a m e i s Mr L e s l i e M a a s d o r p
a n d i t is w h e n i n t h e fo r m a t i o n o f th e b a n k M r M a a s d o r p w a s a p p o in t e d
t o t h a t p o s i t io n t h r o u g h t h e p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s a n d s o f o r t h .
S o it w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n c r e d i b l y o d d fo r M in is te r N e n e w h o i n
h is c a p a c i ty a p p o i n t e d t h r o u g h t h e r e g u l a r p r o c e s s a n d a n a p p r o p r ia t e
p r o c e s s a - a n in d i v i d u a l t o t h e C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r p o s t . Th e n o n ly
t o e v e n t u a ll y r e p o r t m u c h l o w e r d o w n t h e li n e t o t h a t o ff ic e . I t j u s t d id
n o t m a k e s e n s e . I t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e a t a l l.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m a y n o t b e a b le t o a n s w e r th is a n d I w o u l d

u n d e r s t a n d . D o y o u - w o u l d y o u k n o w w h e th e r th e s h a r e h o l d e r s w o u ld
a p p r e c ia t e o r w o u l d h a v e k n o w l e d g e a n d a p p r e c i a ti o n o f a l l o f t h e s e
t h i n g s o r is it p o s s i b l e t h a t s o m e o f t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s t h o u g h t y o u c o u l d
ju s t s a y h e r e is o u r n o m i n e e a n d th e n t h e n o m i n e e w o u l d b e a p p o i n te d ?
MR SHAIK:

O n a g e n e r o u s in t e r p r e t a ti o n I h a v e t o c o n c l u d e t h a t o u r

s h a r e h o l d e r s i n p a r t ic u l a r d id n o t h a v e a t h o r o u g h u n d e r s t a n d in g o f
h o w t h is b a n k w o u ld w o r k .

H o w it w o u l d b e s e t u p .

What are the

in s t r u m e n ts a n d h o w d o y o u e n s u r e th a t i n t h e b a n k i n g e n v ir o n m e n t
that
20

th e r e

is

s e p a r a ti o n

b e tw e e n

p o l ic y

and

management

and

i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
E s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e t h e s e b a n k s g e t i n t e r n a ti o n a l r a t in g s a n d
t h e r a t in g s d e te r m in e t h e - t h e k i n d o r th e c o s t o f m o n e y t h a t y o u w o u l d
b e a b l e t o r a is e a n d i f th e r e is i n t e r fe r e n c e i n - i n t h e b a n k i n g in
g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s . I t a ff e c ts th e r a t in g s v e r y b a d ly. T h e - s o I th i n k
o n t h e g e n e r o u s s i d e o n t h e i n t e r p r e t a ti o n I t h i n k o u r s h a r e h o l d e r s d i d

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
n o t h a v e a p r o p e r a n d d u e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h o w t h e m e c h a n is m o f th e
b a n k w o u l d a c t u a l ly w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y o u r s h a r e h o ld e r s .

Yo u m e a n o u r a s

S o u th A fr ic a ’s ?
MR SHAIK: South Africa, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w a t t h e t i m e w h e n Mr N e n e w a s d r o p p e d

fr o m C a b i n e t w h i c h w a s 9 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 w e r e y o u a lr e a d y i n th e b a n k
- w o r k i n g i n th e b a n k ?
M R S H A I K : I n - th e - t h e y e a r w a s 2 0 1 5 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: 2015.
MR SHAIK:

Ye s .

I w a s - I w a s i n th e b a n k . I w a s i n t h e D B S A f r o m

2012.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SHAIK: August 2012.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w e r e g o i n g t o d e a l Mr S h a ik w i th t h e
is s u e o f d is in f o r m a t io n …
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

A n d t h e u s e o f d i s i n fo r m a t i o n b y t h e

p o s s i b le u s e o f d i s i n fo r m a ti o n b y I n t e ll ig e n c e A g e n c i e s .
MR SHAIK:

T h e - v e r y b r i e f ly s i r t h a t w e - o u r c o u n tr y d o e s h a v e a

h is t o r y o f w h a t is c a ll e d d is i n f o r m a t i o n a n d d i s i n fo r m a ti o n is t h e
m a n u f a c t u r in g o f fa ls e i n te ll i g e n c e f o r p u r p o s e s o f i n fl u e n c i n g th e
t a r g e t . Th e - a n d - a n d t h e c o u n tr y h a s a l o n g h is t o r y o f t h is s t a r t in g
fr o m t h e d a y s o f - o f Pr e s i d e n t N e ls o n M a n d e l a a ll t h e w a y t o

Page 55 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
President Zuma and I am sure even now President Ramaphosa may be
t h e t a r g e t o f s u c h d is i n f o r m a t i o n c a m p a ig n s a n d t h e y t a k e - th e y t a k e a
very unique form.
W h e r e y o u p u t p ie c e s o f in f o r m a t io n t o g e th e r th a t m a y a p p e a r
t o b e tr u e , b u t w h e n y o u r e a ll y g o in t o t h e d e t a i l y o u w il l fi n d th a t t h is
is n o t t h e c a s e a n d t h e s e d is i n f o r m a ti o n c a m p a i g n s y o u w il l r e c a l l w a y
b a c k in 1 9 9 4 t h e H e a d o f t h e th e n S A N D F G e n e r a l M e ir i n g p r e s e n te d a
r e p o r t t o N e l s o n M a n d e la in w h ic h - to P r e s i d e n t N e ls o n M a n d e l a i n
w h ic h i t w a s a ll e g e d t h a t th e r e w a s a p o s s i b le c o u p b e i n g p l a n n e d
10

a g a in s t P r e s i d e n t M a n d e l a .
T h a t i n v o l v e d a m o n g s t o th e r s s o m e o t h e r S o u th A f r i c a n
n a m e s a n d i n c lu d in g t h e n a m e o f M ic h a e l J a c k s o n a n d t h i s r e p o r t a n d I
- I w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d t h a t G e n e r a l M e ir i n g m a y n o t k n o w w h a t t o h a v e
done with it.

S o h e d i d p a s s i t o n t o - t o Pr e s id e n t M a n d e l a w h o

r e j e c t e d t h e r e p o r t , b u t l ik e th a t r e p o r t w e h a v e h a d m a n y o t h e r
reports.
T h e y a r e c a l le d b r o w s e m o le . T h e y c a ll e d s p i d e r w e b . T h e y
a r e c a ll e d a w h o l e r a n g e o f th in g s w h e r e t h e s e r e p o r ts e m a n a t e f r o m fr o m s o u r c e s t h a t y o u q u it e c a n n o t l o c a t e a n d b r o u g h t t o g e t h e r a n d t h e
20

fir s t te ll- t a l e s i g n o f t h a t is - a n d j u s t a n e x a m p l e f o r y o u . I f s o m e o n e
c a l ls y o u a n d s a y s I c a n n o t d is c u s s t h i s o v e r th e p h o n e w i t h y o u .
I n e e d t o m e e t y o u i n p e r s o n . J u s t le t a n a l a r m b e l l r i n g i n
y o u r h e a d . I m e a n i f th e p e r s o n c a n n o t d is c u s s i t o v e r th e p h o n e w i t h
y o u . H e w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o d is c u s s i t i n p e r s o n a s w e l l . S o t h e - w e
w e r e d e e p l y c o n c e r n e d b y t h is p h e n o m e n a - d e e p l y c o n c e r n e d .

Page 56 of 185

So

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
a g a in u n d e r t h e le a d e r s h i p A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a in - i n 2 0 1 0 w e
in v i te d a - a s p e c i a lis t in t h i s m a t te r a n d i t h a p p e n e d t o a G h a n a i a n b y
t h e n a m e o f K o fi B e n t u m Q u a n ts o n . H e is a n e x …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m i g h t b e h e l p fu l i f y o u a r e a b l e t o s p e l l t h a t fo r th e
tr a n s c r ib e r.
M R S H A I K : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u a r e a b l e t o i f y o u j u s t …
MR SHAIK: Kofi.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M R S H A I K : K - O - F- I . B e n tu m - B - E - N - T- U - M . Q u a n ts o n - Q - U - A - N - TS-O-N. So …
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR SHAIK:

S o K o f i is a s p e c i a l is t o n t h e m a t t e r a n d h e h a s w r i t t e n

b o o k s , b e c a u s e h is c o u n t r y to o w a s a ff e c t e d b y - b y t h i s p h e n o m e n o n
o f b o g u s i n fo r m a n t s , b o g u s r e p o r ts e tc e t e r a .

S o w e in v i t e d h i m o v e r

a n d h a d a n a l l- d a y s e mi n a r o n - o n o u r f a c i li t ie s .

W h e r e w e tr i e d t o

g r a p p l e w i th th is p h e n o m e n o n o f d is i n f o r m a ti o n a n d h o w t o - to b e a b l e
t o - to m a n a g e t h is i n f o r m a ti o n a n d t o n e u tr a lis e it s v e r y d e s tr u c ti v e
e ffe c ts , b u t o f te n a n d i t is s o m e th in g t h a t I w i ll s p e n d m y d a y s r e a lly
20

r e fl e c t in g o n .
Is w h a t is i t in o u r s o c i e ty t h a t w e l e n d r e a d y e a r s t o
c o n s p ir a c i e s e tc e t e r a a n d - a n d i t j u s t s e e m s th a t w e d o h a v e a s o c i e ty
in w h ic h w e r e je c t m o d e r n it y.

Where we do not embrace the proper

s ig n s o f lik e is th is p o s s ib ly tr u e o r n o t tr u e a n d s u b je c te d to t h e
r ig o u r s o f a n a ly s is a n d c o m e t o th e c o n c lu s io n t h a t t h is is n o t t r u e a n d

Page 57 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t h e r e f o r e r e j e c t i t a n d d o n o t a c t o n a n d i f t h e r e b y m i n i m is i n g i ts
d e s tr u c tiv e e ffe c t s .
I f o u n d t h a t t h e r e i s a n d t h is g o e s a c r o s s a d m i n is tr a ti o n s .
T h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a t e n d e n c y to l e n d a r e a d y e a r to t h e s e
d is i n f o r m a t i o n

campaigns

and

it

has

been

a

-

a

d e s ta b i li s a t io n o f o u r G o v e r n m e n t t h r o u g h v a r io u s e p o c h s .

source

of

So again

m a n y o f t h e e x a m p l e s b r o w s e m o le , s p i d e r w e b .
I j u s t f o r g e t a l l t h e n a m e s n o w a n d t h e y a ll c o m e u p w i th v e r y
in t e r e s ti n g n a m e s . J u s t - y o u k n o w - i t j u s t - t h a t h a p p e n s w h e n y o u d o
10

n o t r e l y o n y o u r In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s a s y o u r f a c t c h e c k in g e n ti t y.

If

y o u h a v e a n I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v i c e e q u i p i t , g u i d e it , a ll o w i t t o g o
t h r o u g h a ll th e i n f o r m a ti o n a n d b e a b le t o t e l l y o u t h a t th is is n o t tr u e .
T h i s i s m a y b e r e a s o n a b ly t r u e a n d r e j e c t it , b u t a n d y o u w i ll
n o t ic e th a t th e s e r e p o r t s e m a n a t e fr o m o u t o f t h e b l u e . T h e y - th e y ju s t
fi n d th e ir w a y i n a n d m a k e t h e m s e lv e s - t h e y a p p e a r i n th e m e d ia a n d
g o f o r w a r d . N o w o n th e m a t te r o f d i s i n fo r m a t io n s ir I m u s t a ls o p u t o n
r e c o r d th a t i t is s a id - s u g g e s t e d a n d i t h a s b e e n s u g g e s t e d i n - a s a
r e s u l t o f a n a l l e g a ti o n I m a d e in r e s p e c t o f t h e p r e v i o u s N a t io n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s i n w h i c h a n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e
20

a l le g a ti o n s I m a d e .
P e o p l e h a v e - h a v e a c c u s e d m e o f b e i n g a - a d i s i n f o r m a ti o n
s p e c i a lis t e t c e t e r a .
case.

S o I w a n t to p u t i t o n r e c o r d t h a t t h a t is n o t t h e

T h e a l l e g a ti o n w h ic h w a s d e a lt w it h i n t h e H e f e r C o m m i s s io n

w a s n o t a w h is p e r in g c a m p a i g n I s t a r t e d o r a
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h is a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e fir s t N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
P u b l ic Pr o s e c u t io n s ?
M R S H A I K : I t i s c o r r e c t , s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R S H A I K : A n d I w e n t th r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s . I o p e n ly s a id w h a t I h a d
t o s a y.

I d i d n o t w r i t e f u n n y r e p o r ts e t c e t e r a .

J u d g e H e f e r d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t t e r.

I o p e n ly s a id t h e -

H e r e j e c t e d t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t I

made and I accepted the outcome of that report and I accordingly went
t o a p o l o g is e to - t o
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t D ir e c t o r o f …
10

M R S H A I K : A d v o c a t e B u l e la n i N g c u k a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : A n d h is w i f e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H A I K : A n d I t h i n k t h e m a t te r b e t w e e n u s is - is s e t tl e d , b e c a u s e
w h a t I b e li e v e d I d i d a t t h e ti m e .

I w o u ld r a t h e r c l a s s i fy i t a s

w h is t le b l o w i n g . I k n e w o f c e r t a in i n fo r m a ti o n a n d I w a s o f t h e v i e w th a t
t h e O ffi c e o f t h e N a t i o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t i o n w a s b e i n g
u s e d f o r p o li t ic a l p u r p o s e s a n d t h a t i n m y m i n d r e p r e s e n t e d a n a b u s e o f
S t a te p o w e r, b u t th e m e d i a h a d a f ie l d d a y.
20

I t i s - i f y o u w a n t t o G o o g le i t .

I a m s ti ll tr y i n g to g e t i t

r e m o v e d f r o m G o o g l e . I t i s a l l th e r e a n d I h a v e l e a r n t w i t h - w it h th e
p a s s a g e o f ti m e t h e w i s d o m a n d t h e r e s i li e n c e t o - t o b e a r t h a t a n d
a c c e p t th a t i t a c r o s s t h a t I - I w o u l d h a v e t o b e a r, b u t I a m n o t
in v o lv e d i n t h e g a m e o f d i s i n fo r m a t i o n a n d I a m n o t a n d I n e v e r w a s
p a r t o f d ir ty tr i c k s s o t o s p e a k .

Page 59 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

T h a t a l le g a ti o n t o w h ic h y o u h a v e

r e fe r r e d is r e p o r t e d in th e p u b l ic a t i o n b y J a c q u e s P a u w T h e P r e s i d e n t ’s
K e e p e r s . Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t ?
MR SHAIK:

I a m a w a r e o f th is a n d I m u s t s a y t h a t I h a v e a l o t o f

r e s p e c t f o r - fo r J a c q u e s a n d I t h in k i n - i n - t h e w a y h e w r o te w h a t h e
w r o t e t h e r e . H e w a s t a k in g w h a t w e c a l l li b e r t i e s s o to s p e a k , b u t t h e r e
a r e e l e m e n t s in w h a t h e w r o t e t h e r e is t r u e . T h a t I d i d in f a c t - I d i d i n
f a c t h a v e a m e e t i n g w i th A r t h u r F r a s e r a t t h e t i m e a n d I d i d in f a c t
m e n ti o n t o Ar t h u r Fr a s e r t h a t I h e a r d t h a t h e h a s th e s e s o c a ll e d ta p e s
10

a n d h e r e is th e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g .
T h a t I a s k e d h i m t o d o th e r i g h t t h in g a n d h e a s k e d m e w h a t
is t h e r ig h t t h i n g a n d s a i d y o u h a v e in f o r m a ti o n i n y o u r p o s s e s s io n t h a t
a ffe c ts th e in n o c e n c e o r o t h e r w is e o f a n o t h e r p e r s o n .

Ta k e t h is

in f o r m a ti o n t o th e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u th o r it y a n d h e d i d .

H e d id .

H e d i d n o t ta k e i t a n y w h e r e e ls e . H e t o o k i t t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t in g
A u t h o r i ty a n d t h a t is w h a t J a c q u e s P a u w r e fe r s t o a n d I a c c e p te d t h a t
that is correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I f I m a y j u s t p u t a b r i e f e x c e r p t fr o m t h e

b o o k t o y o u . S o th a t th e a ir c a n b e p r o p e r ly c le a r e d a n d t h e m a tt e r is
20

…
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h o r o u g h ly d e a lt w i t h .

He says at page

3 9 o f h is p u b lic a ti o n :
“ M o S h a i k w a s in v o lv e d i n t h e Z u m a c a m p s o w n
d ir t y tr ic k s c a m p a i g n t w o w e e k s a f t e r th e S t a te h a d

Page 60 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
announced

th a t

the

N PA

was

S c h a b ir S h a ik b e f o r e a J u d g e .

about

to

hurl

M o S h a ik id e n t i fi e d

prosecutions boss Bulelani Ngcuka as apartheid spy
R S 4 5 2 . H e l a t e r s a i d h e h a d m a d e t h e a ll e g a ti o n s
in o r d e r to d e fe n d t h e h o n o u r o f th e D e p u ty
P r e s i d e n t o f t h i s c o u n tr y J a c o b Zu m a . ”
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
M R S H A I K : W e l l t h e - a , th e - i n m y c a p a c i ty a s a n In t e l li g e n c e O ff ic e r
w a y b a c k in t h e 1 9 8 0 ’s I h a d c o m e a c r o s s i n fo r m a ti o n th a t g a v e m e
10

r e a s o n t o in v e s t i g a t e B u le la n i N g c u k a f o r p o s s i b le a s s o c i a ti o n w i t h th e
apartheid Government.

T h a t w a s c o m m u n ic a te d to H e a d O ff ic e a n d

c o m m u n ic a te d t o - t o L u s a k a a n d t h e m a t t e r f o r m e r e s t e d t h e r e u n ti l
m u c h l a te r w h e n I r e c e iv e d o th e r i n fo r m a ti o n a n d th e n in l ig h t o f - i n
li g h t o f th e a b u s e s t h a t w e r e t a k i n g p la c e o r t h e a b u s e o f o ffic e o f - o f
t h e D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t n o t n e c e s s a r il y S c h a b ir, b u t t h e D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t
in p a r t ic u l a r.
Mac Maharaj the second. I was of the view that - that there
m a y b e a li n k b e tw e e n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t w e d id w a y b a c k i n t h e
1 9 8 0 ’s t o w h a t is h a p p e n i n g n o w a n d I w e n t p u b l ic w i t h t h a t a n d th e n
20

a s a r e s u l t t h e H e fe r C o m m i s s i o n r e s u l t e d . I d i d n o t c o n s id e r th a t t o
b e d i r t y t r ic k s . I d i d n o t c o n s i d e r th a t to b e p a r t o f a s m e a r c a m p a i g n .
I t w a s a v e r y p u b l ic , v e r y o p e n C o m m i s s io n a n d I w il li n g l y
p a r t ic ip a t e d i n i t . S u b j e c t e d m y s e l f to th e i n te r r o g a ti o n . M a d e i t c l e a r
t h a t I w o u l d a c c e p t th e o u tc o m e o f t h e - t h e J u d g e ’s r e p o r t a n d w h ic h I
d i d . S o I - I d id n o t s e e t h a t a s - a s d ir t y tr i c k s . H o w e v e r I m u s t s a y

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t h a t I k n o w J a c q u e s a n d w h e n I r e a d th a t I s m il e d a n d - a n d s a i d t h i s is
t h e l ib e r ty h e is t a k in g a s - a s a n o v e l is t o r a j o u r n a l is t a n d I a m n o t
going to make an issue of it.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . Th e a g e n t c o d e n a m e R S 4 5 2 w a s
a p p a r e n t ly l a t e r i d e n ti f ie d a s a Va n e s s a B r e r e t o n . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R S H A I K : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W e m a y m o v e o n t h e n j u s t to c l o s e o ff o n
t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w e h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t j u s t fo r c o m p l e te n e s s s a k e
in th a t r e g a r d .
10

Yo u w e r e p a r t o f a d e l e g a t io n o f s i g n a t o r i e s to t h a t

m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e O ff ic e o f t h e S e c r e ta r y - G e n e r a l o f t h e A N C
Mr Mantashe.
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : H o w w e r e y o u r e c e iv e d ?
MR SHAIK:

W e w e r e r e c e iv e d v e r y w e ll .

Ve r y w e ll .

I could not

r e m e m b e r a l l t h e n a m e s o f t h e o ffi c i a l s t h a t w e r e th e r e , b u t i t w a s - b u t
w e w e r e r e c e i v e d v e r y w e ll b y t h e S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l . B y J e s s e D u a r t e
a n d I th in k J e ff R a d e b e w a s a l s o t h e r e .

So it was a - a good

d e l e g a ti o n .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

I n r e l a t i o n t o I n te ll i g e n c e d o c u m e n ta t io n

a n d a c c e s s to I n t e l li g e n c e d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n r e l a ti o n to t h e i s s u e o f
S t a te C a p t u r e r a is e d i n th a t m e m o r a n d u m .

Did you make any

s u g g e s t io n s t o t h e r u l in g p a r t y a t th e ti m e ?
MR SHAIK:

Ye s .

W e - w e s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e O ff ic e o f t h e

I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l b e a p p r o a c h e d . I n w h ic h a n d k n o w in g t h e - th e l a w s
a n d t h e r e g u l a ti o n s th a t g o v e r n t h e I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l th a t th e p o li t ic a l

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
party

could

approach

th e

I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l

for

access

to

d o c u m e n t a ti o n o r in f o r m a t io n a s m a y b e c l a s s i fi e d o r d e c la s s i f ie d b y t h e
I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l ’s O ff ic e h i ms e lf .
I w a s n o t w il li n g a n d I k n o w t h a t A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a w a s
n o t w il li n g t o p r o v i d e t h a t d o c u m e n ta t io n t o th e A N C , b e c a u s e th e n it
w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n v i o l a ti o n o f t h e v e r y C o n s ti t u ti o n t h a t w e a r e
f u r th e r in g th e a i m s o f a p o li t ic a l p a r t y a n d w e d i d n o t w a n t t o g e t
in v o lv e d i n t h a t .

S o w e r a is e d t h e i s s u e a n d s h o w e d t h e m t h e

m e c h a n is m b y w h i c h t h e y c o u l d o b ta i n t h e in f o r m a ti o n .
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u h a v e m e n t io n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 8 o f

y o u r s t a t e m e n t o r a ff id a v i t a d is c l o s u r e t h a t y o u t h o u g h t p r u d e n t .
M R S H A I K : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

To b r in g t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f t h e C h a ir.

W o u l d y o u d o s o p le a s e ?
MR SHAIK:

C h a ir, th e - s in c e l e a v i n g - s i n c e l e a v in g - t a k i n g e a r ly

r e tir e m e n t fr o m t h e D e v e l o p m e n t B a n k . M y w i fe a n d I h a v e o p e n e d o u r
o w n c o n s u l ta n c y a n d w e in f a c t d o p r o v id e a n d I i n p a r t ic u l a r d o
p r o v i d e s e r v ic e s t o o n e o r g a n is a t i o n t h a t m a y b e o r i s i m p li c a t e d i n t h e
t e r m s o f y o u r r e f e r e n c e a n d I t h o u g h t it p r u d e n t th a t I d is c l o s e t h a t
20

c o n fli c t t o th e e x te n t th a t i t i s a c o n fl ic t .
A l th o u g h t h e m a t t e r s a r e v e r y s e p a r a te a n d I h a v e p r o v i d e d
t h e n a m e o f th a t c o m p a n y t o t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r a n d m y p r e f e r e n c e
w o u ld b e t h a t t h a t m a t t e r b e d i s c u s s e d i n c h a m b e r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : It is n o t a c o n fli c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y. Th a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

O n e l a s t t o p ic p l e a s e .

The former

P r e s i d e n t h a s g iv e n e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o In t e l li g e n c e m a t t e r s b e f o r e
t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d th is m a t t e r h a s b e e n r a is e d w i t h y o u - b e e n a b le t o
a s s is t i n s o m e r e g a r d to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t e v i d e n c e .

F ir s tl y, y o u h a v e

s a i d y o u h a d a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f
I n t e lli g e n c e o r S e c u r i ty m a t te r s ?
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Did

he

ever

m e n ti o n

to

you

any

c o n s p ir a c y o r p l a n o n th e b e h a l f - o n t h e p a r t o f Fo r e i g n In t e l li g e n c e
10

Agencies?
MR SHAIK:

I n r o u n d a b o u t 1 9 9 1 a n d I r e c a l l a f te r h e n o l o n g e r

o c c u p i e d th e p o s i t io n o f H e a d o f In t e l li g e n c e in t h e A N C .

He did

m e n ti o n t o m e th a t h e h a d b e e n g iv e n in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o
f o r e i g n a g e n c i e s w h o w a n t t o s t o p h i m f r o m a s s u m in g p o w e r i n - i n t h e
c o u n tr y.
I a s s u m e d a t th a t p o i n t in ti m e th a t w h a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o ,
b e c a u s e in 1 9 9 4 p o w e r w a s a b i t v a g u e in t e r m s o f w h a t p a r ti c u l a r
p o w e r a r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t a n d I t h o u g h t t h a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o
p e r h a p s t h e y d o n o t w a n t h i m t o b e t h e H e a d o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e
20

S e r v ic e s o r r is e w i t h i n th e p o li t ic a l r a n k s a s s u m i n g a M i n i s t e r ia l p o s t
e tc e t e r a , b u t h e d i d m e n t i o n t h a t t o m e , b u t h e d i d n o t - h e d i d n o t g iv e
m e t h e d e t a ils o f e x a c t ly t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n .
W h o h a d s a id t h is t o h i m e t c e t e r a , b u t h e m e n ti o n e d i t to m e
a n d - a n d I o n th e o t h e r h a n d d id n o t p u s h to a s k w h e r e is i t c o m i n g
fr o m e tc e te r a . I t is s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u d o n o t d o i n - i n th e I n t e ll ig e n c e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
game.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t w a s g iv e n to y o u w a s
it t h a t h e s h o u l d n o t b e H e a d o f a n In t e l l ig e n c e A g e n c y o r w a s i t t h a t
t h e r e w a s a c o n s p i r a c y th a t h e s h o u l d b e p r e v e n t e d fr o m a s s u m i n g
p o w e r i n a n y c a p a c it y w h a ts o e v e r ?
M R S H A I K : I - I s a w a l l o f t h a t in o n e - o n e p a c k a g e . T h e - b u t I - I
w o u ld - w h e n I r e a l ly t h i n k a b o u t i t n o w I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t h e w a s
r e fe r r i n g t o p o li t ic a l p o w e r i n - i n G o v e r n m e n t . S o to s p e a k .
CHAIRPERSON: And maybe within the AN C as well.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d t h e r e b e a n y e x p l a n a ti o n w h y ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M r P r e to r i u s .

S o r r y.

M a y b e w i th i n t h e

ANC as a …
M R S H A I K : Ye s . I t m a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P o l i tic a l p a r ty i t s e l f a s w e l l?
M R S H A I K : Ye s . I t m a y b e w i t h i n th e A N C a s - a s t h e p o l i tic a l p a r ty a s
w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b e c a u s e t h e y c o u l d - t h e t w o c o u l d g o t o g e t h e r.
M R S H A I K : H a n d in … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e h i g h e r y o u r i s e i n t h e p o li t ic a l p a r ty - t h e r u li n g
20

p a r t y - t h e h i g h e r y o u m a y r is e i n t e r m s o f G o v e r n m e n t p o s i t i o n s .
MR SHAIK: That is correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

W h a t in t e r e s t w o u l d a F o r e i g n

I n t e lli g e n c e A g e n c y h a v e in - l e t u s j u s t d e a l w it h t h e o n e a s p e c t w h ic h
I u n d e r s t o o d to b e w h a t y o u t o l d u s .

T h e in t e r e s t i n s o m e o n e n o t

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a s s u m i n g a n in t e l li g e n c e p o s it i o n . S o m e o n e o f th e b a c k g r o u n d o f th e
former President.
M R S H A I K : W e l l t h e - t h e p o s s i b l e r e a s o n s fo r t h a t is w e d i d - w e d i d
a n d r e m e m b e r t h e w o r l d a t t h a t ti m e w a s j u s t e m e r g i n g o u t o f
e s s e n ti a l ly t h e C o l d W a r e r a i n w h ic h In t e ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s w e r e t h e
fr o n t li n e o f th e w a r t h a t e x is te d b e t w e e n th e v a r io u s I n te ll ig e n c e
S e r v ic e s a n d i t i s a p o s s ib il i ty th a t th e s e I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s m a y n o t
w a n t s o m e o n e w h o h a s b e e n tr a i n e d in t h e E a s t o r tr a i n e d in - i n - b y
e i t h e r t h e E a s t G e r m a n s o r th e - t h e R u s s ia n s t o b e t h e H e a d o f t h e
10

I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e h e r e .
O n th e b a s i s th a t o n e s i n p o s i ti o n o f p o w e r t h e - t h e n a t u r a l
le a n i n g w i ll b e t o w a r d s th e s e r v ic e s f r o m w h ic h t h e y w e r e tr a i n e d a n d I
t h i n k th e p o s s ib il it i e s th a t th e W e s t e r n In t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e s w e r e tr y in g
t o a v o i d th a t w h i c h is m o r e a r e f l e c ti o n o n th e t h in k i n g o f W e s te r n
I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
former President.
regard?

A p a r t f r o m w h a t y o u w e r e to ld b y th e

Do you have any of your own knowledge in this

I d o n o t w a n t to c r o s s th e l i n e in t o I n t e l li g e n c e m a t t e r s

u n n e c e s s a r il y.
20

M R S H A I K : W e l l I d o n o t k n o w t h a t t h e r e i s v a r i o u s tr a i n i n g t h a t d o e s
o c c u r b y I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v i c e s a c r o s s t h e w o r l d o f e a c h o t h e r a n d t h o s e
r e l a ti o n s h i p s a r e - d o i n f a c t c a r r y a d e g r e e o f - o f p e r s u a s i o n , b u t n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly to t h e e x te n t t h e y th in k i t d o e s , b u t w e - w e a s a c o u n tr y
h a s b e n e f it t e d fr o m t h a t , b e c a u s e p r e v io u s a p a r t h e i d In t e l li g e n c e
S e r v ic e s w e r e tr a in e d b y M o s s a d a n d o t h e r s .

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S o W e s t e r n I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s in t h e m a i n . T h e l ib e r a t o r y
f o r c e s w e r e tr a i n e d b y t h e E a s t e r n I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s i n t h e m a in
a n d w h e n w e a ll c a m e t o g e t h e r w e h a d t h e b e n e fi t o f a ll t h a t tr a i n i n g .
S o y e s i t i s - tr a i n i n g d o e s h a v e a l e v e l o f in f lu e n c e o n tr a in e e s
s u b s e q u e n t ly.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A t t h e ti m e th is c o n v e r s a t io n b e t w e e n

y o u r s e l f a n d t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t t o o k p la c e o r i n d e e d a t a n y o t h e r
ti m e .

D i d th e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t t e ll y o u t h a t t h e r e a s o n t h a t h e - t h e

f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t - s h o u l d n o t r is e e it h e r i n th e In t e l li g e n c e o r i n t h e
10

g o v e r n in g p a r ty r a n k s w a s t h a t h e w o u ld s o m e h o w b e a b l e t o r e v e a l n o r e v e a l a n d b l o c k a s s u m p t i o n o f p o w e r b y in f il tr a to r s ?
M R S H A I K : N o . W e d i d n o t - w e d i d n o t h a v e th a t k in d o f d i s c u s s io n
…
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R S H A I K : B u t I m u s t s a y t h a t in t h e - i n d is c u s s i o n s o f i n t e l li g e n c e
o ft e n t h o s e th i n g s a r e a s s u m e d a n d - a n d a p p li e d , b u t w e d i d n o t h a v e
a d ir e c t d is c u s s i o n o n i t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Well

given

your

knowledge

of

the

I n t e lli g e n c e s tr u c t u r e s a t t h e ti m e a n d y o u r p a r t ic i p a ti o n i n t h o s e
20

I n t e lli g e n c e s tr u c tu r e s a n d g i v e n y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f th e p o s i ti o n h e ld
b y y o u r s e lf a n d o t h e r s a n d t h e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t w o u l d h e h a v e h a d
e x c lu s i v e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e id e n ti ty o f i n f il t r a to r s ?
M R S H A I K : N o . I t h i n k h e w o u l d h a v e h a d a p r iv i l e g e d a c c e s s t o t h a t
k n o w l e d g e , b u t a s a - i n h i s c a p a c i t y o f t h e H e a d o f t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e
S e r v ic e h e w o u l d n o t h a v e t h e o n ly a c c e s s .

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T h e r e w e r e o th e r s lik e

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
S iz a k e l e S ig x a s h e , J o e N h l a n h l a w h o - a n d o f c o u r s e …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r s e l f?
MR SHAIK:

To t h e s e n s e I w o u l d - w o u l d h a v e f r o m - f r o m t h e p a r ts

that I worked with.

O t h e r s w h o w o r k e d w i th i t w o u ld h a v e t h a t

k n o w l e d g e . S o th e k n o w le d g e w o u ld n o t b e t h e p u r v ie w o f o n e p e r s o n .
S o t o s p e a k a n d o f c o u r s e t h e - t h e I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v ic e s d id n o t - th e
A N C I n t e ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e d i d n o t e x is t i n is o l a t i o n fr o m t h e le a d e r s h i p
o f th e A N C i ts e l f a n d t h e r e w e r e r e p o r ti n g li n e s t o t h e l e a d e r s h i p a n d I
t h i n k t h e le a d e r s h i p w o u l d a l s o h a v e b e e n t a k e n in t o c o n fi d e n c e a b o u t
10

s u s p i c i o n s o r w h a te v e r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t a ls o a ll u d e d t o t h e

f a c t t h a t t h is p l o t o r c o n s p i r a c y c o n t in u e d t o t h e v e r y p r e s i d e n t p r e s e n t . D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t i n t h a t r e g a r d a n d in fa c t h e w e n t
s o f a r a s t o s a y t h a t t h i s C o m m i s s i o n i ts e l f w a s th e c u l m in a ti o n o f s u c h
a c o n s p ir a c y. D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h e c o n t in u a t i o n n a tu r e o f
t h is c o n s p i r a c y ?
MR SHAIK:

I h a v e n o k n o w le d g e o f a - a - o f a c o n s p i r a c y t o h a v e

t o p p l e d th e p r e v i o u s Pr e s i d e n t .

There was - not that I was aware of

a n d t h e - i f - if a n y t h i n g i f o u r m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h w a s I t h i n k t h e f ir s t
20

t h a t c a ll e d f o r a C o m m is s i o n w a s a d e s p e r a te p le a t o th e P r e s i d e n t t o
h e a r t h e c r i e s o f S o u t h A fr ic a n s w h o a r e s a y in g a l l i s n o t w e ll i n t h is
la n d a n d t h a t is n o t a c o n s p ir a c y.
T h a t w a s a s i m p ly a p l e a f o r h i m t o l is te n to r a t io n a l e v o ic e s
t a lk in g a b o u t th i n g s t h a t a r e n o t g o in g r ig h t in th e c o u n tr y a n d i t is
u n f o r t u n a t e t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e c o n s id e r e d th a t to b e a - a c o n s p ir a c y.

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A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u Mr S h a ik .
MR SHAIK: Thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir I h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e s t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:
evidence.

No.

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr S h a i k fo r y o u r

W e h a v e t a k e n m u c h l o n g e r t h a n w e m a y a ll h a v e th o u g h t

w e w o u ld , b u t I th in k i t w a s a l l v e r y i m p o r t a n t . T h e e v id e n c e t o u c h e d
o n v e r y i m p o r ta n t is s u e s w h ic h t h e C o m m is s i o n w a n t e d t o h e a r
evidence on.
T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o mi n g f o r w a r d a n d I ju s t h o p e t h a t
10

y o u r c o m i n g f o r w a r d a n d t h e fa c t t h a t y o u r c o l l e a g u e s - tw o o th e r
c o l l e a g u e s a r e a ls o - h a v e m a d e t h e m s e lv e s a v a il a b l e w i ll e n c o u r a g e a
lo t o f o t h e r f o r m e r a n d c u r r e n t D G s a n d D e p u ty D G s n a t io n a l ly a n d i n
v a r io u s p r o v i n c e s w h o k n o w a lo t o f th in g s th a t s h o u l d b e s h a r e d w i t h
t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n o r d e r t o e n a b l e t h e C o m m i s s io n t o h a v e a fu ll
p ic t u r e o f w h a t t h e s i t u a t i o n is i n o u r c o u n tr y t h a t i t h a s g o n e t h r o u g h
a n d to e n a b le t h e C o m m is s i o n t o m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t h o p e f u l ly
c a n h e lp t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e fu t u r e o f t h e c o u n tr y is b e t t e r t h a n t h e
p a s t.
S o I h o p e t h a t y o u r h a v i n g c o m e t o th e C o m m i s s io n w i ll

20

a s s is t a n d e n c o u r a g e a n d i n s p i r e o t h e r s , b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r
c o m i n g fo r w a r d a n d i f a n e e d a r is e s th a t w e a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k I
h a v e n o d o u b t t h a t y o u w il l b e a g r e e a b l e t o c o m in g b a c k . T h a n k y o u
very much.
M R S H A I K : T h a n k y o u , s ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
MR SHAIK: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: And you are excused.
MR SHAIK: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Th e n e x t w it n e s s i s

M r N je n je .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I s e e w e w o u ld n e e d fi v e o r s o m in u t e s t o
…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To s t a r t to …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Fa c i li t a t e t h e tu r n o v e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t I w o n d e r w h e t h e r a n e a r ly b r e a k …

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S o t h a t w e d o n o t b r e a k t w ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e c o u ld t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w a n d t h e n m a y b e

resume at quarter to two.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

T h a t w o u ld a v o i d t w o b r e a k s .

Break

once.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t o f c o u r s e i f w e t o o k ju s t fi v e m in u t e s i f th a t
is a ll y o u w o u l d n e e d . W e c o u ld c o v e r th e p r e li m i n a r y is s u e s b e f o r e 1
o ’ c lo c k a n d w h e n w e c o m e b a c k a t 2 o ’ c lo c k m a y b e w e a r e g o i n g t o
the meat of the evidence.

If you know what I mean.

So your

p r e f e r e n c e is - w o u l d b e t h a t w e ta k e t h e b r e a k n o w ? I t is j u s t t h a t if

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w e k e p t to t h e 1 o ’ c l o c k / 2 o ’ c l o c k a r r a n g e m e n t f o r lu n c h . I t m i g h t h e l p
w i t h c e r ta i n t h i n g s a n d s o .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : H a p p y th a t w e t a k e fi v e m i n u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fiv e m i n u t e s a n d t h e n …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e w il l g o f o r
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w i ll u s e t h e 1 5 m in u t e s b e f o r e 1 o ’ c lo c k to
t a k e c a r e o f p r e li m i n a r y is s u e s o r w h a te v e r i n t r o d u c t o r y p a r ts a n d t h e n
w e c o m e b a c k a t 2 o ’ c l o c k w e g o in t o t h e r e a l i s s u e s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. W e w il l t a k e - i t is 2 0 t o . W e w il l r e s u m e a t

fi v e - a t q u a r te r t o o n e .
MR SHAIK:
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s M r Pr e t o r i u s ?

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

CHAIRPERSON:
REGISTRAR:
WITNESS:

[ I n a u d i b le m ic o ff ] .

Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a th .

P le a s e s t a t e y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .

L iz o N j e n j e .

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
WITNESS:

No.

Page 71 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r th e o a th t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r

conscience?
WITNESS:

Ye s .

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e th e

tr u th t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
WITNESS:

S o h e lp m e G o d .

L I Z O N J E N J E : ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a te s )
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , is i t , G e n e r a l N j e n j e o r w h a t is

t h e c o r r e c t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e d e s i g n a ti o n C h a ir is D i r e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

D ir e c t o r o h o k a y a l r i g h t t h a n k y o u .

Before Mr

P r e t o r i u s b e g i n s to a s k y o u q u e s ti o n s , I j u s t w a n t to t h a n k y o u f o r
c o m i n g f o r w a r d t o a s s is t t h e C o m m is s i o n w e a p p r e c i a t e i t , th e s a m e
s e n ti m e n ts I ’v e e x p r e s s e d t o Mr S h a ik a p p ly to y o u .

We appreciate

t h a t p e o p le w h o o c c u p i e d s e n io r p o s i ti o n s i n v a r i o u s g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts w h o h a v e s o m e t h i n g to s h a r e w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d
w i t h th e n a t io n in a n a t t e m p t to a s s i s t t h e C o m m i s s i o n to a s s is t t h e
n a t io n c o m e f o r w a r d a n d s h a r e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n w i t h u s , th a n k y o u v e r y
20

much.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u , y e s Mr P r e t o r iu s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D ir e c to r N j e n j e y o u h a v e b e f o r e y o u

Exhibit PP2.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Perhaps we should admit that then.

W e a lr e a d y d i d f o r a l l o f t h e m i n c l u d i n g th e n e x t

w i t n e s s , y e s t e r d a y.

W e l l I d o n ’ t k n o w D ir e c t o r N j e n j e w h e r e I g o t t h e

G e n e r a l p a r t fr o m b u t j a , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s i g n e d y o u r s ta t e m e n t … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

I ’ m s o r r y Mr P r e t o r i u s , it ’s h o t , I fe e l h o t m a y b e th e

a ir c o n a l i tt l e b i t , I k n o w th a t I k e e p o n c o n fu s i n g y o u , s o m e t i m e s I s a y
s w it c h it o ff , s o m e t i m e s I s a y p u t i t o n b u t m a y b e i t s h o u ld n ’t b e t o o
m u c h b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s i t a ff e c t s t h e h e a r i n g b u t Mr P r e to r i u s l o o k s
10

a t m e a s i f h e d o e s n ’ t k n o w w h a t I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t , h e ’s n o t f e e li n g h o t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I’ m n o t .

S o m a y b e i t’s j u s t m e b u t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir I t a k e n o r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e a i r -

c o n d i ti o n i n g , I’ m p r e p a r e d t o a s s i s t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t l e t’s c o n ti n u e .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

M r N j e n je i t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e e i g h t o f

E x h i b i t P P 2 t h a t y o u s i g n e d a s ta t e m e n t o n t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

D id y o u t h e n a t te s t t o t h i s s t a t e m e n t

b e f o r e a C o m m is s i o n e r o f o a t h s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Was that on the 20th of August 2019?

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i t ’s a – th is m a y h a v e n o t h in g to d o w i th y o u ,

it ’s r a t h e r u n u s u a l i n t h e s e n s e t h a t i t d o e s n ’ t h a v e w h a t w e c a ll t h e
C o m m i s s i o n o f O a t h c e r t i fic a t e a t t h e e n d o r a t l e a s t I d o n ’ t s e e i t , I
d o n ’t k n o w w h e th e r t h e fi n e p r i n t o n t h e s t a m p is – r e a d s l ik e a
c e r t if ic a te o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f O a th s b u t a ls o b e c a u s e a t t h e
b e g in n i n g I d o n ’ t th i n k i t d o e s w h a t n o r m a l ly a n a ffi d a v i t d o e s n a m e l y, I
d o h e r e b y s w e a r o r m a k e a n o a t h … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s i t d o e s n ’ t , t h e in tr o d u c ti o n d o e s n ’t

d o t h a t a n d w e c a n fi x i t u p b u t th e fi n e p r i n t a t t h e s t a m p o n p a g e
10

e i g h t d o e s c o n t a i n th e r e q u is i t e w o r d in g fo r … [i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fo r t h e c e r t i fic a t e ?

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Mr N j e n j e o r D ir e c t o r N je n j e t e ll t h e

C o u r t p le a s e a s y o u d o in p a r a g r a p h t w o a n d th r e e o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t o r
a ffi d a v i t o f y o u r b a c k g r o u n d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Can you repeat please?

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

In p a r a g r a p h tw o a n d t h r e e o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t – I’l l r e fe r t o i t f o r th e m o m e n t a s a s t a t e m e n t y o u r e c o r d
20

s o m e o f y o u r o w n p e r s o n a l b a c k g r o u n d w o u l d y o u t e l l t h a t t o th e
Commissioner please?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I le f t t h e c o u n t r y 1 9 7 7 a n d j o i n e d t h e A N C I

jo in e d t h e m i li t a r y w i n g U m k h o n t o w e S iz w e a n d I w e n t t o m il it a r y
tr a i n i n g a n d a f e w y e a r s l a t e r I w e n t t o s p e c i a lis e in I n te ll ig e n c e i n
R u s s ia o r S o v i e t U n io n a t t h e t i m e a n d a f te r c o m p le t in g t r a i n i n g I

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
r e tu r n e d t o A fr ic a a n d a p p li e d t h e I n t e l li g e n c e t r a d e f o r U m k h o n to w e
S iz w e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f I n te ll i g e n c e a n d S e c u r i ty o f th e A N C .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

D id y o u d o s o f r o m 1 9 7 9 u n t il 1 9 9 4 ?

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t w a s y o u r r o l e in t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f

I n t e lli g e n c e a n d S e c u r i ty o f t h e A N C p a r ty ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I p l a y e d v a r i o u s r o l e s a n d r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s i n th e

D e p a r t m e n t o f I n t e ll i g e n c e a n d S e c u r i ty s t a r ti n g o ff w it h th e v e tt i n g o f
p e o p l e w h o w e r e c o m i n g th r o u g h M o z a m b i q u e , j o i n i n g t h e A N C a n d
10

t h o s e w o u ld b e [i n d is t in c t ] o f t h e A N C , w h e th e r th e y w e r e g o in g to j o in
U m k h o n t o w e S iz w e o r th e y w e r e g o i n g to s c h o o l th e y h a d to g o
t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s o f v e tt i n g – s e c u r i ty v e t t in g a n d I d i d t h a t u n ti l
1 9 8 0 /1 9 8 1 w h e r e I w a s th e n t h e a d m in is tr a to r f o r t h e o ffic e in M a p u t o ,
t h e o ff ic e – t h e D I S o ffi c e i n M a p u t o a n d t h a t m e a n t n o w w o r k in g o n
in t e l li g e n c e in f o r m a t io n in c l u d i n g a ll t h e b i o g r a p h i e s t h a t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n c o ll e c t e d b y t h e fi e l d w o r k e r s w h e r e I h a d b e e n b e f o r e a n d
r e c e i v i n g r e p o r ts fr o m S w a z i la n d , f r o m L e s o t h o a n d fr o m S o u t h A fr ic a
a n d t h o s e w o u l d in c l u d e v e r y s e n s i ti v e in t e l li g e n c e r e p o r ts .

Those

r e p o r t s I w o u ld c o m p il e a n d c o n s o li d a te a n d s e n d to L u s a k a e v e r y
20

week.
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

D ir e c to r N j e n j e i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r

w o r k a s a n o ff ic ia l o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f I n t e ll ig e n c e S e c u r it y o f t h e
A N C b e t w e e n 1 9 7 9 a n d 1 9 9 4 , w o u l d y o u h a v e c o m e t o k n o w o f t h r e a ts
o f i n f il tr a ti o n i n to t h e A N C ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W a s it p a r t o f y o u r d u ty to k n o w th e

id e n t i ty o f s u c h p e r s o n s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d fr o m w h o m w o u l d y o u r e c e iv e s u c h

in f o r m a ti o n a n d t o w h o m w o u l d y o u g i v e s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

T h a t i n f o r m a ti o n w o u ld b e – f r o m w h e r e I w a s

s i tt i n g a t t h e ti m e I w o u ld p r o v i d e th a t t o t h e l e a d e r s h ip o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t w h o I k n e w w o u l d th e n p a s s o n t o t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f th e
A N C s p e c i f ic a l ly t h e Pr e s i d e n t o f t h e A N C .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u s a y y o u w o u ld r e c e iv e ,

y o u r e c e iv e w e e k l y fr o m M o z a m b i q u e w o u ld b e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t
in d i v i d u a ls w h o w e r e j o i n i n g t h e A N C a s w e ll a s s i m p ly r e p o r t s a b o u t
t h e s i t u a ti o n i n t h e c o u n t r y, in o t h e r w o r d s j u s t i n te ll ig e n c e in f o r m a t io n
a b o u t, m a y b e c e r ta i n p a r ts o f th e c o u n tr y o r t h e c o u n tr y q u it e a p a r t
fr o m in t e l li g e n c e in f o r m a t io n a b o u t in d iv i d u a ls ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r i t w o u l d b e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t

w e w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e in t e r v i e w s t h a t w e r e c o n d u c t e d o n
in d i v i d u a ls w h o w e r e jo in i n g .

I t w o u l d b e i n f o r m a ti o n th a t w e w o u l d

h a v e r e c e i v e d fr o m o p e n s o u r c e n e w s p a p e r s , th e m e d i a .
20

I t w o u ld b e

in f o r m a ti o n th a t w o u l d b e r e c e iv e d fr o m a g e n ts o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d
the ANC as well as a membership or underground people who were
w o r k i n g fo r t h e A N C p r o v i d i n g i n fo r m a t i o n a s w e ll a s in f o r m a t io n t h a t
w o u ld b e c o m i n g fr o m – w i th i n t h e f o r m e r e n e m y r a n k s p e o p l e w o u l d b e
w o r k i n g f o r t h e A N C a n d th e D e p a r t m e n t o f In t e l li g e n c e a n d S e c u r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t w h a t I w a n t t o e s t a b li s h is w h e t h e r y o u w e r e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
f o c u s i n g o r s p e c i a lis i n g o n i n t e l li g e n c e i n fo r m a t i o n r e l a t i n g t o p e o p l e
w h o w e r e jo i n i n g t h e A N C , i n o t h e r w o r d s , fo c u s i n g o n p e o p l e a s s u c h
g e t t in g in f o r m a t io n a b o u t t h o s e p e o p l e o r w h e t h e r it w a s a ls o g e t t in g
in t e l li g e n c e i n f o r m a ti o n g e n e r a l ly a b o u t th e c o u n tr y o r c e r t a i n p a r ts o f
t h e c o u n t r y a p a r t f r o m t h e i n d iv i d u a l s w h o w e r e jo i n i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

It is b o t h t h e p e o p l e a s w e l l a s g e n e r a l

in f o r m a ti o n a n d a c r o s s th e c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I s i t a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e C h a ir ?

Ye s l e t ’s ta k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’ll

r e s u m e a t 2 o ’c lo c k , w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNED
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y M r Pr e t o r i u s ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u . D ir e c t o r N j e n j e I u n d e r s t a n d
t h a t y o u p la y e d s o m e r o l e .

Yo u d e s c r i b e i t a s a m a jo r r o le i n th e

C o d e s a n e g o ti a ti o n s i n t h e e a r ly 9 0 ’s .
20

W h a t w a s y o u r f u n c ti o n t h e n ?

W h a t r o le d i d y o u p la y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k t h a t a n s w e r s h o u ld b e a r ti c u l a t e d t h e n o d d i n g
o f t h e h e a d w i ll n o t b e c a p t u r e d b y th e r e c o r d i n g .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : E x c u s e m e I c a n n o t h e a r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I c a n n o t h e a r C h a i r s o r r y.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u c a n n o t h e a r.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s a y i n g t h a t i t i s b e t t e r i f y o u a r ti c u l a t e y o u r

a n s w e r r a t h e r t h a n n o d b e c a u s e w h e n y o u n o d t h a t w i ll n o t b e i n t h e
tr a n s c r ip t . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o u n d e r s t a n d o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I w a s s ti ll l is t e n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hey?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I w a s s ti ll l is t e n i n g t o t h e q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A lr i g h t . O k a y w h a t is y o u r a n s w e r ? H e – I
t h i n k M r P r e to r i u s s a i d h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t y o u p l a y e d a r o le in C o d e s a
n e g o ti a ti o n s . H e r e f e r r e d to a m a j o r r o l e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o m e o f th e – th e d u t ie s
w e w e r e p e r fo r m in g i n c lu d e s w h a t a d i r e c t o r – A m b a s s a d o r S h a ik
d e s c r ib e d h e r e . Is s u e s o f l o o k i n g a t t h e la w s th a t w e r e t o g o v e r n th e
n e w d is p e n s a t io n .

A – Issues of the security of the leadership

e s p e c i a l ly o f th e A N C i n c l u d in g P r e s i d e n t M a n d e l a a n d a – t h e i s s u e s
o f t h e s e t t in g u p o f t h e w o r k i n g c o m m i t t e e s o f i n te ll ig e n c e .
20

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

A lr ig h t .

D id y o u p l a y a n y r o le i n th e

c r e a ti o n o f a n e w i n t e lli g e n c e d is p e n s a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d i n t h e n e g o t ia t io n s p r o d u c in g th e

c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p r o v is io n s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W e w e r e in p u t ti n g i n t o – i n t o t h e p e o p le w h o

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w e r e w o r k in g o n t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l a r r a n g e m e n t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n 1 9 9 5 t h e n d i d y o u j o i n th e n e w

in t e l li g e n c e s tr u c t u r e s o r d i d y o u g o e l s e w h e r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: In D e c e m b e r 1 9 9 4 I t e n d e r e d my r e s i g n a t i o n f r o m
t h e D I S b e c a u s e i t w a s a n ti c i p a t e d a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h e a m a lg a m a t io n o f
t h e f o r c e s w o u l d s ta r t h a p p e n i n g a r o u n d J a n u a r y o f 1 9 9 5 . I c h o s e n o t
t o j o i n t h e g o v e r n m e n t I c h o s e to g o p r iv a t e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n in 2 0 0 2 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : In a b o u t 2 0 0 2 I w a s h e a d h u n t e d a n d w a s a s k e d
10

t o s e r v e a s t h e D e p u ty D ir e c to r G e n e r a l f o r t h e S o u th A f r i c a n S e c r e t
S e r v ic e i n th e O p e r a t io n s S e c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e fe r r e d t o D I S w a s t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f – w a s
t h a t a d e p a r t m e n t i n th e A N C ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir D e p a r t m e n t o f I n t e ll i g e n c e

a n d S e c u r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h D e p a r t m e n t o f I n te ll ig e n c e a n d S e c u r i ty o k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t w a s b e t w e e n t h e y e a r s 1 9 7 9 a n d
1994?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d in 2 0 0 3 d i d y o u tr a n s f e r o n c e a g a i n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

Ye s I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d f r o m t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n

S e c r e t S e r v ic e to b e c o m e t h e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l O p e r a t io n s o f
t h e N a t i o n a l I n te ll ig e n c e A g e n c y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u r e s ig n f r o m t h e N I A la t e i n 2 0 0 5 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C : R ig h t . Yo u s a y in y o u r s ta t e m e n t b e c a u s e
o f c e r t a i n d e v e l o p m e n ts w h i c h h a d p o li ti c a l i m p l ic a ti o n s .
a n y th in g r e l e v a n t to o u r te r m s o f r e fe r e n c e t h e r e ?

Is th e r e

Yo u k n o w w h a t

m a t t e r s w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I d o n o t t h i n k t h e r e i s a d ir e c t r e fe r e n c e to t h e

t e r m s b u t in t h e m a i n i t is a ls o w h a t D ir e c t o r S h a ik s a id h e r e w i t h t h e
c o m m i s s io n t h e p r o b le m t h a t a r o s e b e tw e e n P r e s i d e n t Th a b o M b e k i a n d
t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a t t h e t i m e B il li e M a s e tl a – D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f
N a t io n a l I n te ll ig e n c e A g e n c y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u M r M a s e tl a ’s d e p u ty a t t h e t i m e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : E x c u s e m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u M r M a s e tl a ’s d e p u t y a t th e ti m e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I u n d e r s t a n d th a t b e t w e e n 2 0 0 6 a n d 2 0 0 9
y o u r e t u r n e d t o t h e p r iv a te s e c t o r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d in 2 0 0 9 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

20

In 2009 I was approach by Doctor Cwele who

in f o r m e d m e a s M i n is t e r o f S t a te S e c u r i ty a t t h e ti m e t h a t h e h a d b e e n
a s k e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t to – to ta lk t o m e a m o n g o t h e r s t o jo i n t h e
g o v e r n m e n t a s H e a d s o f t h e I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d w h a t d e c is i o n d i d y o u m a k e w h e n

that approach was made to you?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

When the approach was made I agreed that I

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w o u ld jo i n t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n – t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And

to

w h ic h p o s i ti o n w e r e y o u

appointed?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I w a s a p p o i n t e d th e D ir e c t o r f o r D o m e s ti c Br a n c h
w h ic h i s t h e N a ti o n a l I n t e l li g e n c e A g e n c y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e k n o w t h a t M r S h a ik w a s a p p o i n t e d
H e a d o f t h e F o r e i g n B r a n c h fo r m e r l y t h e S A S S a n d A m b a s s a d o r
M a q e t u k a w a s h e k n o w n a s th e S u p e r D G ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : To w h o m y o u w o u l d h a v e r e p o r te d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t w e r e y o u r d u ti e s a s H e a d o f t h e

D o m e s ti c B r a n c h ?
D IR E C TO R

N J E N J E:

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s

included

As

Head

counter

of
–

the

D o m e s tic

performing

Branch

my

c o u n t e r i n t e lli g e n c e

s e r v ic e s a n d g e n e r a l ly lo o k in g a ft e r t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e c o u n tr y i n t e r m s
o f i n t e lli g e n c e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

F o r th o s e o f u s n o t s t e e p e d i n

y o u r w o r l d D ir e c to r w h a t is c o u n t e r i n t e l li g e n c e ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C o u n t e r i n t e l li g e n c e a r e m e a s u r e s t h a t a r e

e m p l o y e d t o p r e v e n t th r e a ts fr o m h a p p e n i n g . To b e a b l e t o p r e d ic t a n d
t o b e a b l e t o m i t ig a t e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

D i d y o u r e c e iv e a n y i n s tr u c ti o n

fr o m M i n i s te r C w e l e o n y o u r a p p o in t m e n t a s t o t h e m a t t e r th a t y o u
s h o u l d i n v e s ti g a t e ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s I d i d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s t h a t m a t te r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: T h e fi r s t is s u e th a t D o c to r C w e le r a is e d w i t h m e
w h e n h e c a m e t o b r i e f m e a f te r m y a p p o i n t m e n t w a s a n i n t e r e s t i n w h a t
h e c a l le d t h e – t h e PA N p r o g r a m w h i c h w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a P r in c i p l e
A g e n t N e t w o r k t h a t w a s e s ta b lis h e d w i t h i n t h e a g e n c y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . D i r e c t o r I w o n d e r i f y o u w o u l d j u s t
s p e a k u p a li t tl e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O k a y.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u s p e a k v e r y s o f tly s o m e ti m e s .

What

w a s t h e Pr in c i p l e A g e n t N e t w o r k ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e Pr i n c i p le A g e n t N e t w o r k w a s d e s c r i b e d t o u s
as

a

C o r v e tt e

e s t a b li s h e d

C o l le c ti o n

outside

the

Structure
agency

w h ic h

and

was

c o m p o s in g

supposed
of

to

people

be
and

in fr a s tr u c t u r e t h a t w a s n o t li n k e d t o t h e a g e n c y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

Yo u w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n w e w e r e

t a k e n a t s o m e l e n g t h a n d i n s o m e d e ta i l t h r o u g h t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l
P r o v is i o n s g o v e r n i n g I n te ll i g e n c e A g e n c i e s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A r e y o u a b l e t o c o m m e n t o n w h e th e r a n
I n t e lli g e n c e A g e n c y m a y b e e s t a b l is h e d o u t s i d e o f t h e P r o v is i o n s o f
L e g is l a ti o n a n d t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h is w a s n o t a n a g e n c y p e r s e . I t w a s s u p p o s e d
t o b e a n e x t e n s i o n o f w h a t is – w h a t i s h a p p e n in g a n d u n d e r t h e c o n tr o l
o f – o f t h e D D G th e n . T h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l O p e r a t io n s .

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A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l fo ll o w i n g y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w a s th e
P r i n c ip le A g e n t N e t w o r k in d e e d u n d e r t h e c o n tr o l o f th e o ffi c i a ls i n th e
I n t e lli g e n c e D e p a r t m e n t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s n o t.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o it – s o d i d y o u f in d t h a t i t w a s o u t s i d e o f t h e
– o f th e o ffic i a l a g e n c y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Th a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n t h e
fir s t p la c e t h a t M r C w e l e e x p l a i n e d t o m e t h a t th e s u s p i c i o n is t h a t t h is
10

s tr u c t u r e h a s b e e n e s ta b lis h e d o u t s i d e t h e l e g a l fr a m e w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t I t h o u g h t y o u ju s t g a v e a n a n s w e r t o a

q u e s t io n a s t o w h a t y o u r fi n d i n g w a s a n d I a m j u s t w a n ti n g t o e s t a b l is h
w h e t h e r y o u r fi n d i n g w a s th a t in d e e d i t w a s o u t s i d e o f t h e o ffi c i a l
agency?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th o u g h t h e w o u l d g e t t o th a t p o in t b u t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t w a s n o t th e q u e s – Mr P r e t o r iu s I t h o u g h t is
t h e q u e s t i o n h e h a d a s k e d y o u . S o I m u s t h a v e – o k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s it w a s i n d e e d C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : O h y o u w e r e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I w i ll w a i t .

O h o k a y w a s th a t th e – w a s th a t th e

q u e s t io n M r P r e to r i u s ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s i t w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t p e r h a p s I a m g o in g a h e a d .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.

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A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Under whose auspices was the Principle

A g e n t N e t w o r k e s t a b li s h e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s e s ta b lis h e d u n d e r D e p u ty D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l
O p e r a t io n s M r Ar t h u r F r a s e r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . A n d s o a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t y o u w e r e
d ir e c t e d b y M i n i s t e r C w e l e t o i n v e s t i g a t e t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h i s
network?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u t h e n s e t u p a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s I d i d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d d i d t h o s e in v e s t i g a t o r s r e p o r t t o y o u
fr o m ti m e t o ti m e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u t h e n r e p o r t t o t h e M in is t e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s I d i d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h i l e th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n to l e t u s r e f e r t o
it a s PA N – P - A- N , w a s o n g o i n g w e r e a n y m e m b e r s o f t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e
S e r v ic e s s u s p e n d e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n o t n e e d t o n a m e th e m a l l b u t w h o
w a s s u s p e n d e d i n t h e m a in ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I n t h e m a i n i t w a s Mr A r t h u r Fr a s e r a n d a

g e n tl e m a n w h o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r w h a t w a s c a ll e d th e C o r v e t te
Support Unit.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . D i d A r t h u r F r a s e r l a t e r r e s ig n ?

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D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s h e d i d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t w e r e th e a ll e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t M r

Fr a s e r a n d th e o t h e r s w h o w e r e s u s p e n d e d g e n e r a ll y s p e a k i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

G e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g w h a t w a s b e in g i n v e s t ig a t e d

w a s th e a c q u is it i o n o f p r o p e r ti e s , o f v e h ic l e s , e m p l o y m e n t o f p e o p l e
w h o w e r e e it h e r m e m b e r s o r n o n - m e m b e r s b u t e m p l o y e d a s p a r t o f t h is
PA N P r o g r a m .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Is it f a ir t o s u m m a r i s e t h e a l le g a ti o n s a s
an abuse of funding?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u w o u l d b e a r w i t h m e a m o m e n t . W e
w i ll c o m e b a c k to t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e f a te o f t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n
la t e r o n in y o u r s t a t e m e n t . L e t u s j u s t g o if w e m a y to p a r a g r a p h 1 3 t o
k e e p t h e t i m e l in e .

D u r in g 2 0 0 9 w e u n d e r s t a n d fr o m M r S h a ik ’s

e v i d e n c e t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n s t r u c t u r a l c h a n g e s in t h e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e
I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

What was your role and the role of you

t w o c o ll e a g u e s i n th a t ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

M y r o le w a s t o p r i m a r il y lo o k a t h o w w e w e r e

r e s tr u c t u r i n g t h e d o m e s ti c b r a n c h fr o m w h a t w a s t h e n k n o w n a s N I A .
A n d a s w e l l w e h a d t o s y n c h r o n i s e a n d t o g e t h e r – s it t o g e t h e r a s t h e
t h r e e o f u s t o s e e t h a t – t o s e e t o i t t h a t a l l s tr u c t u r e s w e r e ta lk in g t o –
t o o n e a n o t h e r i n c lu d i n g t h a t o f f o r e i g n a n d d o m e s tic , t h e a c a d e m y a n d
a l l o f th o s e .

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A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d y o u h a v e t h e s u p p o r t o f M i n is t e r

C w e le in y o u r e ffo r t s o f r e s tr u c t u r i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A t t h e b e g in n in g y e s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a ft e r t h e b e g i n n i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A f t e r th e b e g i n n i n g s o m e p r o b l e m s d e v e lo p e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d t h o s e r e l a te to th e w o r k t h a t y o u w e r e
d o i n g in t h e r e s tr u c t u r in g o r w e r e th e r e o t h e r r e a s o n s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e y r e l a t e d t o t h e w o r k th a t w e w e r e d o i n g .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : In t h e r e s tr u c t u r i n g p r o c e s s ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I n t h e r e s tr u c tu r i n g p r o c e s s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D id y o u d is c u s s t h e s e is s u e s o r p r o b l e m s
a s y o u r e f e r to t h e m w i t h M i n is te r C w e l e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s in d e e d w e d i d d i s c u s s th e i s s u e s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d w h a t w a s th e o u t c o m e o f t h o s e

d is c u s s io n s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I t h i n k t h e o u t c o m e o f th e d is c u s s i o n s w a s t h a t

t h e M i n i s t e r p r o m is e d t h a t h e w o u ld li f t h i s t e m p o – h e w o u l d r a i s e h is
t e m p o a b i t i n t e r m s o f d e li v e r y. B e c a u s e w e w o u l d m a k e s u b mi s s io n s
b e c a u s e w e c o u l d n o t i m p l e m e n t s tr u c t u r e s w it h o u t h is a u th o r is a t i o n .
20

S o w e n e e d e d th a t a u th o r i ty f o r u s to – to c o n ti n u e to d o t h e w o r k t h a t
we were supposed to.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e r e th e r e d e la y s i n h is r e s p o n s e s t o
your proposals?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is t o o u r s u b m i s s i o n s , c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . A n d d id t h i s a s s is t o r h a m p e r y o u r

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work?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t d i d h a m p e r o u r w o r k .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s th e r e a d e c is i o n t h e n t o a p p r o a c h t h e
President?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : E x c u s e m e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Wa s t h e r e a d e c i s i o n a t t h a t s t a g e t o

a p p r o a c h th e P r e s id e n t a b o u t t h e p r o b l e m s y o u w e r e f a c in g in t h e
I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

A t a p o i n t y e s a d e c is i o n w a s m a d e t h a t w e

s h o u l d m e e t – w e s h o u ld s e e th e Pr e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e is s u e s w h i c h g a v e r is e t o t h e p r o b le m s a r e t h e y
is s u e s t h a t y o u m a y b e a b l e t o t e ll m e a b o u t o r a r e th e y t h e ty p e s o f
is s u e s t h a t p r e f e r a b l y y o u s h o u l d n o t t e ll m e a b o u t b e c a u s e o f
in t e l li g e n c e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th i n k i t i s is s u e s t h a t I c a n d e c la r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . C a n y o u p l e a s e t e l l m e – g iv e m e a n i d e a
w h a t th o s e i s s u e s w e r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I t h in k b a s ic a lly i t w e r e a d m i n i s t r a t iv e i s s u e s

w h e r e th e M i n is t e r w i ll s it o n s u b m is s i o n s fo r l o n g p e r io d s o f t i m e .
20

Is s u e s o f p e r s o n a l r e la t io n s I t h i n k w e w e r e s t a r ti n g t o d e v e l o p a s w e l l .
And I think the issues of him wanting to take part in the work that we
w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e d o i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e y

related

t o a d m i n is tr a ti v e

is s u e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 87 of 185

and

o p e r a ti o n a l

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n p a r t t h e y r e la t e d t o h i m w a n ti n g to g e t

in v o lv e d in o p e r a t io n a l i s s u e s w h i c h y o u b e l ie v e d s h o u ld b e l e ft t o y o u ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? A n d t h a t c a u s e d s o m e t e n s i o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t d i d c a u s e fr ic ti o n s a n d te n s i o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. D i d y o u c o m e t o k n o w d u r i n g 2 0 1 0
o f a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r p r o p o s e d in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o t h e a c t iv i ti e s o f t h e
G u p t a fa m i ly ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : H o w d i d y o u c o m e t o k n o w o f th a t ? W a s
it s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w i t h i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a s i t w e r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

It w a s h a p p e n in g i n m y d e p a r t m e n t a n d i t w a s

a ls o h a p p e n in g h e r e f o r m t h e f o r e i g n b r a n c h p o in t o f v i e w.
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

A n d d i d y o u r e c e i v e i n fo r m a t i o n

fr o m y o u r o p e r a tiv e s in r e la t io n to t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll d o y o u w a n t t o t e l l m e w h a t in f o r m a t io n p r e c i s e ly
y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d o f th a t g a v e r is e to t h e i d e a t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n
20

in v e s t i g a t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e h a d b e e n a w h a t is c a ll e d a n in f o r m a t io n

e x c h a n g e b e tw e e n o u r s e r v ic e a n d f o r e i g n s e r v i c e s w h e r e t h e y w e r e
e n q u ir i n g a n d a s k i n g f o r a s s i s ta n c e fr o m u s w i t h r e g a r d s t o – t o c e r t a in

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is s u e s t h a t – t h a t g a v e r is e fo r c o n c e r n to t h e m .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t U r a n i u m M i n e – th e U r a n iu m M i n e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

That is one of them yes.

And of course our

p r o t o c o l a l lo w s th a t w e d o t h o s e e x c h a n g e s a n d t h a t – th a t w a s g o i n g
o n . W h e n I – w h e n I a r r iv e d i n 2 0 0 9 t h e r e w e r e a lr e a d y s o m e – th o s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s w e r e – w e r e g o in g o n . S o a t th e p o i n t w h e r e A d v o c a t e
P r e t o r i u s i s e n q u ir i n g i t w a s a r e p o r t b a c k f r o m s tr u c t u r e s a b o u t w o r k
t h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g i n r e g a r d s w it h – w i th r e g a r d s t o t h o s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o – s o t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n – w h e n y o u a r r i v e d in t h e
d e p a r t m e n t t h e i n v e s t – t h e r e w a s a l r e a d y a n in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t w a s
ongoing.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w a t t h a t t i m e t h e M in is t e r w a s
u n a w a r e o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a t t h a t ti m e w h e n y o u a r r i v e d ? W h e n y o u
g o t t o k n o w a b o u t i t w e r e y o u t o l d th a t h e – h e w a s n o t a w a r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t h e w a s a w a r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t t h i n k h e w a s a w a r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o n o t t h i n k s o C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a t a c e r ta in s t a g e y o u t h o u g h t i t s h o u ld b e
– i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t h a t – o h n o I t h i n k fr o m w h a t M r S h a ik s a i d it w a s
n o t y o u r d e c i s i o n t h a t h e s h o u ld k n o w. H e – h e c a ll e d – h e c a ll e d y o u
b u t t h a t c o m e s l a t e r.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: C h a ir t h e fa c t o f th e m a t t e r is th e M i n i s te r h e a r d
fr o m s o m e b o d y w h o w a s a t th e m e e ti n g t h a t t h e is s u e w a s r a is e d a n d

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d is c u s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s n o . I t is ju s t t h a t e a r l ie r o n I w a s th in k i n g
w h e t h e r h a v i n g a r r iv e d i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d f o u n d t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n
g o i n g o n a n d b e in g o f t h e v ie w th a t h e h a d n o t – h e w a s u n a w a r e .

I

w a s t h i n k in g w h e th e r y o u m i g h t h a v e d e c i d e d t h a t h e s h o u l d k n o w b u t
t h e n I r e m e m b e r e d th a t in te r ms o f M r S h a ik ’s e v i d e n c e i t d o e s n o t l o o k
lik e y o u d e c i d e d t h a t h e s h o u l d k n o w b u t h e g o t w i n d o f i t a n d t h e n
called you.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:
10

C h a i r r e m e m b e r t h e s e a r e t w o in d e p e n d e n t

s tr u c t u r e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I h a v e – I r u n m y m a n a g e m e n t a n d A m b a s s a d o r
C h a ir w a s r u n n i n g h i s m a n a g e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: The foreign?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e fo r e ig n – t h e f o r e i g n b r a n c h .
CHAIRPERSON: The foreign branch.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I a m r u n n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I a m r u n n in g t h e D o m e s t ic .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o m e s t ic y e s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

So we – we – although we did exchange

in f o r m a ti o n a t t h e t o p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A t th e l e v e l o f o p e r a ti o n s w e w e r e r u n n i n g

in d e p e n d e n t o p e r a t io n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. A lr i g h t. M r Pr e to r i u s I i n te r r u p t e d .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

Ye s a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d

t h a t o f M r S h a ik t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g to d i s c u s s t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A f t e r …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And Mr Maqetuka was there, you were

t h e r e a n d S h a ik w a s th e r e a m o n g s t o th e r s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a s – d o I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e
c o r r e c t ly th a t s o m e o n e fr o m t h a t m e e ti n g i n f o r m e d t h e M in is t e r o f t h e
10

in v e s t i g a t io n ? T h a t is y o u r s u p p o s i ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Fr o m o u r – fr o m o u r m e e ti n g th e o n e t h a t I a m

s a y in g t h e D o m e s t ic B r a n c h h a d t h e m a n a g e m e n t m e e ti n g th e r e w a s a
r e p o r t th a t w e r e c e iv e d t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a ti o n is a t t h is p o i n t a n d i t i s
g o i n g o n . Fr o m m y o w n te a m s o m e b o d y w e n t to t a lk t o t h e M in is t e r t o
s a y t h a t t h e r e is a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h is n a t u r e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t g a v e r is e th e n to t h e m e e t in g t h a t w e h a d w i th
t h e M i n i s t e r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W i t h th e th r e e c o ll e a g u e s ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t i s t h e m e e t i n g t o w h i c h M r S h a ik
r e fe r r e d ? Yo u w e r e h e r e w h e n h e d i d th a t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d t h e r e
w a s a m e e ti n g w i th M i n i s t e r C w e l e a t th e M i n is t e r ’s i n s t a n c e ?

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D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

B e fo r e w e g e t th e r e d i d y o u

r e c e i v e d r e p o r ts o r d id y o u h e a r w h a t M i n i s t e r C w e l e w a s s a y i n g a b o u t
y o u r i n v o lv e m e n t in th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d w h y t h e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s
a l le g e d ly t a k i n g p la c e u n d e r y o u r c o m m a n d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s I d i d h e a r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s h e s a y in g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I h e a r d h e w a s s a y in g t h a t I h a v e g o t p e r s o n a l

in t e r e s ts t h a t a r e c o n fli c ti n g to th o s e o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y.
10

w e r e b u s i n e s s r e la t e d .

And these

I t h i n k a t t h e m e e t in g t h a t w e h a d I tr i e d t o

e s t a b li s h fr o m h i m w h e r e h e g o t t h i s a n d w h a t e v i d e n c e h e h a d . I f h e
c o u l d p r o v i d e m e w i th t h a t b e c a u s e h e w a s m a k in g m y w o r k t o b e
d i ff ic u l t .
me.

E s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e h e s t a r t e d o ff b y t a l k i n g n o t d i r e c tly t o

He never came to me.

H e n e v e r c a l l e d m e in a n d s a i d , b u t I

u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e is t h is – is th is s i tu a ti o n y o u h a v e – y o u a r e c o n fli c te d
a n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t w h a te v e r m a y b e y o u s h o u ld b e d o i n g w h e t h e r y o u
r e c u s e o r w h a t e v e r. N o t h i n g o f th e s o r t h a p p e n e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l t h a t is q u i te i m p o r ta n t .

It a p p e a r s

t h a t fr o m w h a t y o u s a y p r i o r t o th e m e e ti n g t o w h ic h M r S h a i k h a s
20

t e s ti fi e d a n d y o u w i ll t e s ti fy i n a m o m e n t .

Yo u s a y th a t th e M i n i s te r

n e v e r a p p r o a c h y o u t o r a is e a n y is s u e a b o u t c o n f lic t in g b u s in e s s
in t e r e s ts i n r e l a ti o n t o th e G u p t a i n v e s t ig a t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d a n y o n e e ls e r a is e t h e is s u e w i t h y o u ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: N o C h a ir o th e r th a n ju s t th e r u m o u r th a t w a s j u s t

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
taking rounds.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s t h e tr u e p o s i t io n ? W e r e t h e r e
b u s i n e s s in t e r e s ts y o u h e l d i n c o m p e ti t io n o r i n c o n f lic t w i t h th e G u p t a
b u s i n e s s in t e r e s ts ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I h a v e g o t n o – n o c lu e . I d o n o t k n o w. I d o n o t
k n o w w h a t o th e r b u s in e s s i n t e r e s ts t h e y w e r e d o in g . I m e a n w h a t o t h e r
b u s i n e s s e s th e y w e r e in v o lv e d in .

B u t I – I w a s n o t in v o lv e d in a n y

b u s i n e s s w h e n I w a s – I w a s w o r k i n g f o r th e s t a te .

A ll m y b u s i n e s s

in t e r e s ts I h a d t o – t o c e a s e o p e r a t in g a n d th e r e fo r e t h a t I d i d n o t h a v e
10

a n y th in g t h a t w a s a c t iv e . I w a s n o t a c tiv e l y in v o lv e d i n b u s in e s s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . W e ll it is – I u n d e r s ta n d i t w o u l d b e
d i ff ic u l t fo r y o u to s p e c u la t e b u t h a s a n y o n e s i n c e th e n e v e r p o i n t e d o u t
t o y o u th a t t h is b u s i n e s s in t e r e s t o r t h a t b u s i n e s s i n te r e s t m i g h t b e
w h a t w a s t e r m e d a s th e c o n f li c t i n g b u s i n e s s in t e r e s t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

No.

N o t e v e n th e P r e s i d e n t r a i s e d t h a t a t th e

m e e ti n g t h a t M r S h a ik r e f e r r e d t o .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Fr o m y o u r p o in t o f v i e w D ir e c t o r w h a t w a s
t h e r e a s o n f o r th e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e G u p ta f a m ily ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
20

T h e r e w e r e m a n y d is t u r b i n g th in g s t h a t – t h a t

w e r e h a p p e n in g a t t h e t i m e . E s p e c i a ll y in t h e y e a r – in th e c i r c l e s – in
p o li t ic a l c i r c l e s w h e r e p e o p l e w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e i n fl u e n c e o f th e
f a m ily o n o u r P r e s i d e n t .

A n d th a t c o n c e r n e d u s g r e a t ly.

Th e

a s s o c i a t i o n o f t h e Pr e s id e n t’s c h i ld r e n w i t h th e f a m ily w a s a ls o a m a tt e r
o f g r a v e c o n c e r n t o I n t e l li g e n c e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n y o t h e r r e a s o n ?

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D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Th e o th e r r e a s o n s w e r e t h a t t h e y s h o u ld n o t b e –
t h e y s h o u l d n o t p u t o u r c o u n tr y a t j e o p a r d y i n t e r m s o f d e a l in g w it h t h e
r o g u e e l e m e n ts i n te r ms o f b u s in e s s e s t h a t t h e y w e r e r u n n in g , u s in g
n a t u r a l r e s o u r c e s o f t h e c o u n tr y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r i g h t. Yo u h a v e h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f
M r S h a i k i n r e la t io n t o t w o m e e ti n g s .

I n y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u d e a l i n

s o m e d e t a i l w it h th e l a tt e r m e e ti n g w i t h t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t .
r e l a ti o n t o t h e

m e e ti n g

But in

w i t h M r C w e l e d o y o u a g r e e w i th

th e

r e c o l l e c ti o n s o f M r S h a ik ? D o y o u h a v e a n y o th e r r e c o ll e c ti o n s o r a n y
10

d i ff e r e n t r e c o l l e c ti o n s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o r e c a ll C h a ir t h a t it w a s th e f ir s t t i m e t h a t h e
w a s r a is in g t h e is s u e o f my - m y p e r s o n a l in t e r e s ts d ir e c tl y i n m y - i n
m y p r e s e n c e d ir e c tl y w it h m e .

O f c o u r s e t a l k i n g t o a ll o f u s a t t h e

s a m e ti m e . I t h i n k th a t d i d n o t s o u n d g o o d to m e a n d I - I r e a c t e d t o
t h a t . I s a id , b u t I m e a n i f y o u - y o u a r e a M i n is t e r.
I th in k y o u - y o u s h o u ld - y o u s h o u l d b e d o in g b e t t e r th a n
t h is . Yo u a r e t h e M i n is t e r. Yo u a r e r e s p o n s i b le h e r e . If y o u h a v e g o t
is s u e s w h y d o y o u n o t - w h y d o y o u n o t r a is e t h e m p r o p e r ly. W e h a v e
g o t r e g u la t io n s .
20

W e h a v e g o t p o lic i e s .

W e h a v e g o t e v e r y t h i n g in

p l a c e w h i c h y o u c a n u s e a s y o u r i n s tr u m e n ts f o r y o u r o v e r s i g h t o n u s .
W h y i s i t t h a t y o u a r e - y o u a r e d e c i d i n g w i t h t h e m a te r in t h e m a n n e r ?
S o I - I w a s n o t h a p p y p e r s o n a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I d o n o t i f m y r e c o l le c t io n is c o r r e c t , b u t I t h i n k
M r S h a ik m a y h a v e s a id s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e l i n e s t h a t y o u w e r e - h e
h a d n e v e r s e e n y o u s o u n h a p p y o r a n g r y.

Page 94 of 185

I am not sure what the - I

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r, b u t I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t h e f e l t t h a t y o u - y o u
w e r e - y o u w e r e v e r y e x t r e m e ly u n h a p p y t o s a y t h e le a s t , b u t m a y b e
e v e n a n g r y.

I a m n o t s u r e a t h e a r i n g t h is a c c u s a ti o n b e i n g l e v e ll e d

a g a in s t y o u . W o u l d - w o u l d t h a t b e a f a ir r e fl e c ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I - I t h in k s o C h a ir, b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I f e l t li k e b e i n g p e r s o n a ll y a s s a u l t e d a t t h e ti m e
t h a t th is w a s h a p p e n in g a n d - a n d t h e f a c t t h a t h e c o u l d n o t s h o w m e
a n y p ie c e o f t h in g to s a y t h i s is w h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d id h e g iv e d e t a i ls s u c h a s y o u a r e i n v o lv e d i n

t h is b u s i n e s s o r t h is b u s in e s s . Yo u h a v e a n in t e r e s t i n t h is c o m p a n y o r
t h is c o m p a n y. T h is is w h a t th is c o m p a n y d o e s . T h e G u p ta s h a v e g o t
t h is c o m p a n y w h i c h d o e s t h e s a m e . Th e s e t w o o r w h a t e v e r c o m p a n i e s
a r e c o m p e ti n g . T h a t is t h e c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t. D i d
h e g i v e d e ta ils s u c h a s t h o s e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e r e w a s n o th i n g o f t h a t n a tu r e C h a ir.

There

w a s n o i ll u s tr a ti o n o f - o f a n y s o r t to s a y t h is is - t h i s i s w h y I a m
s a y in g y o u h a v e g o t t h is a n d y o u s e e I h a d n o t e v e n a p p l ie d f o r t h e j o b
o f c o m i n g t h r o u g h in 2 0 0 9 . H e - h e a p p r o a c h e d m e t o s a y t h a t I m u s t
20

jo in a n d h e k n e w w h a t I w a s d o in g .
T h a t I w a s i n b u s in e s s a n d h e - a n d a s I c a m e i n I d e c l a r e d
t h o s e i n t e r e s ts t o s a y t h is is w h a t I a m i n v o l v e d i n a n d - a n d r e s i g n e d
in a ll o f t h o s e i n t e r e s ts t h a t - th a t w o u l d - th a t w o u l d c a u s e a n y o n e to
s a y t h e r e is a c o n fl ic t o f in t e r e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e w i ll c o m e b a c k t o t h a t s e q u e n c e o f

e v e n t s . Yo u r s t a t e m e n t is c o n s tr u c t e d o n t h e b a s is o f a t i m e li n e a n d I
w o u ld l ik e t o d e a l w i t h t h e i n c id e n t t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d to i n p a r a g r a p h
17.

Yo u r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m a l o n g - t i m e fr i e n d o f y o u r s .

Is t h a t

correct?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o w a s th a t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t i s M r … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a m s o r r y Mr P r e t o r iu s .

W e r e y o u s a y i n g y o u w i ll

c o m e b a c k t o t h e i s s u e o f th a t m e e t in g o r a r e y o u d o n e w it h t h a t
m e e ti n g ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e m e e ti n g w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . N o . W i t h - w i th t h e M i n is t e r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I w il l c o m e b a c k , b u t I h a v e d o n e w i t h t h e
- t h e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

With

-

with

the

m e e t in g .

O k a y.

Now

did

M i n is t e r C w e le s a y t h a t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n m u s t b e s t o p p e d i n e x p r e s s in - i n e x p r e s s e d t e r m s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th in k w h a t w a s c o m i n g o u t o f t h e m e e t in g h e r e
20

w i t h M i n is te r C w e l e w a s t h a t i n e ff e c t w e w i ll b e in v e s t i g a t in g th e
P r e s i d e n t i f w e c o n ti n u e w i th t h is in v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h e r e fo r e t h a t h e
d i d n o t t h i n k t h a t it w a s p r o p e r t h a t w e s h o u l d b e i n v e s t ig a ti n g th e
P r e s i d e n t . O u r p o i n t w a s s i m p l e t h a t n o . W e a r e n o t i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e
President.
W e a r e tr y i n g to h e lp t h e P r e s i d e n t f r o m t h is r e la t io n s h ip

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
h e r e a n d th e m o r e w e k n o w a b o u t w h a t is g o i n g o n t h e b e tt e r w e a r e to
a d v is e t h e Ex e c u ti v e s a s to w h a t t h e y s h o u l d b e d o i n g w i th t h i s - w i t h
t h is f a m ily.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n fr o m Mr S h a ik ’s e v i d e n c e
t h e r e w a s a c o n c e r n e x p r e s s e d t h a t i t c o u ld b e t h a t t h e - t h e fu n d i n g if I a m n o t m is t a k e n - f o r t h e S h iv a U r a n i u m w a s o b t a i n e d fr o m
( in d is ti n c t) ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

( I n d i s t i n c t) a n d y o u - w h a t w a s s o u g h t t o b e

in v e s t i g a t e d w a s w h e th e r t h e r e w a s tr u th t o t h a t .

There might have

b e e n m u c h m o r e t o b e in v e s t i g a t e d th a n j u s t t h a t , b u t t h a t w a s p a r t o f .
Is t h a t r ig h t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A r e y o u a b l e to s a y w h e th e r t h e r e w a s

s o m e t h i n g e ls e o t h e r t h a n t h a t t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o - t h a t w a s b e in g
in v e s t i g a t e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C h a i r w h a t I c a n s a y in a d d i ti o n is t h a t i t w a s n o t
o n ly t h e G u p ta s th a t w e r e f a l li n g i n t h a t f o r - i n t h a t ty p e o f
in v e s t i g a t io n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e r e w e r e o t h e r in v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t w e r e - t h a t

were being carried out …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d th e y a ls o a ff e c t e d p e o p l e li k e fr o m In d i a a n d
P a k is t a n …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

And - and there were - there were court cases

t h a t fo ll o w e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W h e r e s o m e o f S o u th A f r ic a ’s t e c h n o l o g y w a s

b e i n g s o ld il le g a l ly to - t o s o m e o f th o s e c o u n tr ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s f a r a s t h e G u p t a s w e r e c o n c e r n e d p a r t ic u l a r ly
10

w i t h r e g a r d t o S h iv a U r a n i u m w a s t h a t t h e m a in t h in g t h a t w a s t o b e
in v e s t i g a t e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o . M o r e t h a n th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e - it w a s m o r e th a n t h a t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id - d i d i t i n c lu d e t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h a t i n fl u e n c e d

the Guptas had …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e f a m il y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t i n c lu d e d t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t w h a t M i n is t e r C w e l e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t w h e n

h e s a id y o u w o u l d b e i n v e s t i g a t in g th e P r e s id e n t i f y o u c o n ti n u e w i t h
t h is in v e s ti g a t i o n ?

In - i n o t h e r w o r d s b e c a u s e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n

in c l u d e d w h a t i n f l u e n c e th e G u p t a s h a d o n h i m . As y o u u n d e r s t o o d …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A t t h e ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON: What was your understanding of what he was saying?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A t t h e ti m e - a t t h e ti m e C h a i r I - I t h in k I t o o k i t
a t fa c e v a l u e t h a t h e m e a n t i f w e d i d m o r e i n t o t h e s e p e o p l e I w il l f in d w e m a y fi n d s o m e t h i n g o n t h e P r e s id e n t , b u t I d i d n o t li n k i t t o is s u e s
o f t h e p e o p le tr y i n g t o u n s e a t t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d a ll o f t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t - w e ll y o u h a v e c o n fir m e d th a t p a r t o f w h a t th e

in v e s t i g a t io n w a s t o l o o k a t w a s w h a t i n fl u e n c e o r w h a t l e v e l o f
in fl u e n c e t h e G u p t a f a m il y h a d o n th e Pr e s id e n t . Is th a t r i g h t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I m a y a d d t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s a n a s s u m p t io n o n o u r p a r t a s w e ll t h a t i t is
p o s s i b le t h a t th e y a r e ju s t e m p l o y e e s o f a n o t h e r In t e l li g e n c e A g e n c y
a n d th e a i m o f c o u r s e is t o i n fl u e n c e t h e P r e s id e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . S o t h a t - t h a t w a s t h e a n g le fr o m w h i c h

20

y o u w e r e c o m in g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e w e r e l o o k i n g a t a l l a n g l e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a ll a n g le s , b u t t h a t w a s o n e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I n c lu d i n g th a t . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y, b u t y o u s a y t h a t w h e n M i n is t e r C w e le

s a i d i f y o u c o n ti n u e w i th t h is in v e s ti g a t io n in e ff e c t y o u w o u l d b e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
in v e s t i g a t in g t h e P r e s i d e n t o r i t w ill b e li k e y o u a r e in v e s t i g a t in g t h e
President.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t h e w a s s a y i n g i f
y o u i n v e s t ig a t e y o u m i g h t c o m e a c r o s s t h i n g s t h a t r e l a t e t o t h e
P r e s i d e n t . M a y b e t h a t y o u s h o u l d n o t - a s f a r a s t h e P r e s i d e n t is o r a s
f a r a s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d h e t h o u g h t y o u s h o u l d n o t g o to .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

D i d h e - a n d h e e x p r e s s e d a v ie w th a t w a s

a g a in s t c o n ti n u i n g w it h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e d id C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u a b l e to t e l l m e h o w h e e x p r e s s e d h i s v i e w i n
t h is r e g a r d ? Wa s h e q u i t e f o r c e f u l ? W a s h e q u i te a d a m a n t ? Wa s h e w a s h e j u s t e x p r e s s in g th e m i n a v e r y c a l m m a n n e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C h a ir h e w a s fo r c e f u l.
CHAIRPERSON: He was forceful?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

20

H e w a s fo r c e f u l t h a t y o u k n o w th a t i s is s u e o f

p r i v a t e i n t e r e s ts c o m e i n t o p l a n a n d - a n d t h e n - a n d t h a t y o u - y o u a r e
- i t i s lik e g a n g i n g u p a n d th a t is th e - t h e c o ll e a g u e s g a n g i n g u p w i t h
me …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : To a c h ie v e p e r s o n a l in t e r e s ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Huh-uh.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

He was forceful on that and - but of course he

c o u l d n o t l a y o n t h e t a b l e t o u s a n d s a y t h e s e a r e th e r e a s o n s w h y I a m
s a y in g t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . D i d - d i d y o u g e t t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t h e h a d a n
u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d a n a p p r e c i a ti o n o f th e N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty R is k th a t
you were concerned about?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t h i n k I a m g o i n g t o s a y s o m e th in g i n t h e c o u r s e
of my - my statement …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : B u t h e s e e m s t o h a v e o t h e r i n t e r e s ts o th e r th a n
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O t h e r th a n n a ti o n a l i n te r e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

Okay and did he deal with - did he deal

p e r t i n e n tl y w i t h y o u r r e a s o n s t h a t y o u a r t ic u l a te d a s t o w h y th e th r e e o f
y o u b e l ie v e d t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s h o u l d c o n ti n u e ?

D id h e d e a l

p e r t i n e n tl y w i t h y o u r r e a s o n s i n t e r m s o f w h y y o u th o u g h t i t w a s
n e c e s s a r y t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s h o u ld c o n ti n u e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e d id n o t C h a ir m a n .
20

CHAIRPERSON: He did not?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s h is m a in p o i n t s i m p ly t h a t i n e ff e c t y o u p e o p le

c a n n o t i n v e s t ig a t e th e P r e s i d e n t ? T h i s w il l a m o u n t to in v e s ti g a t in g t h e
President.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A r e y o u a b le t o r e m e m b e r o th e r p o in t s t h a t h e
p u t f o r w a r d t o tr y a n d s a y i n g o i n g o n w i t h t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? I t i s n o t
a g o o d id e a o r … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C h a ir h e d i d n o t - h e d i d n o t h a v e - h e d i d n o t

h a v e s o m e t h i n g l ik e a r a ti o n a le …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A r g u m e n t a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e s a t a n d s p o k e a r o u n d t h a t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e - h e d i d - i t w a s j u s t th a t y o u g u y s a l l th a t y o u
a r e d o i n g n o w is t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e P r e s i d e n t e ff e c ti v e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : As I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n a n d s u m m a r y
t h e n D ir e c to r.

T h e th r e e c o ll e a g u e s M a q e tu k a , y o u r s e l f a n d M r S h a i k

w e r e c a ll e d i n t o a m e e t in g b y th e M in is t e r - M i n is t e r C w e le ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A t t h a t m e e ti n g t h e t o p ic o f d i s c u s s io n

w a s t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o a t l e a s t t h e G u p t a f a m i ly ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w a s m o ti v a te d b y y o u i n t h e t e r m s t h a t
y o u h a v e o u tli n e d a n d d o y o u r e c a l l M r S h a ik ’s e v i d e n c e ?

Wa s h e

c o r r e c t in r e l a ti o n to h i s m o t iv a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h is w a s a n o n g o i n g m a t t e r

t h a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t a n d t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h th e M i n is t e r

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
a p p r o a c h e d u s w a s a ls o a li t t le - a l it t le s h o c k i n g i n - in t h e m a n n e r
t h a t h e - h e e x p r e s s e d h i m s e l f a n d - a n d o n t o p o f th a t h i m n o t h a v in g
a n y th in g t h a t h e c o u l d p u t o n th e t a b l e a n d s a y y o u p e o p l e f o r t h e s e
r e a s o n s I w a n t y o u t o s t o p t h is . O th e r t h a n y o u k n o w e ffe c t iv e l y y o u y o u a r e - y o u a r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g th e Pr e s i d e n t.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d f o r …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d th a t y o u i n p a r t ic u l a r a r e p u r s u i n g y o u r

b u s i n e s s in t e r e s ts ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t w a s - w e ll th a t - t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n a n o t h e r
10

a d d it i o n a l t h i n g t h a t h e h a d t o s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e m e e t i n g t h e n in v o lv e d M i n is t e r C w e le
r a i s i n g th e is s u e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o t h e G u p t a f a m i ly. Yo u r o w n
a n d y o u r c o ll e a g u e s o w n m o t iv a t i o n fo r t h e in v e s ti g a t io n . T h e m a t t e r s
r a i s e d i n o p p o s it i o n to th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n b y M i n is te r C w e l e .

Is that a

f a ir s u m m a r y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is - t h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e tw o m a tt e r s y o u r e fe r to a r e th e

a ffe c tiv e i n v e s ti g a ti o n in t o t h e c o n d u c t o f th e Pr e s id e n t - f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t a n d y o u r a ll e g e d c o n f li c t o f i n te r e s t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t w a s t h e o u t c o m e o f t h e m e e ti n g ?

D i d e i th e r s i d e b u d g e ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t w e - w e c a t e g o r i c a lly

s t a te d to M i n is t e r C w e le t h a t w e w e r e n o t c o n v in c e d th a t w e s h o u ld
s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t h a t w e w o u l d g o o n w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D id h e c h a n g e h is m in d ?

Wa s h e

persuaded by your representations?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o . H e w a s n o t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And we know that subsequent to that

t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g w i th t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t . W e w ill c o m e t o th a t in a m o m e n t ,
b u t if w e m a y g o b a c k to t h e t i m e l i n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h a t I t h i n k I a s k e d t h i s q u e s t io n e a r li e r o n ,

b u t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I g o t a c l e a r a n s w e r.

A r e y o u a b le to s a y

M i n is t e r C w e le in s t r u c t e d y o u to s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n - t h e t h r e e o f
y o u o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e to s a y h e i n s tr u c t e d y o u t o
d o s o t o s to p , b u t h e s i m p l y m a d e h i s p o s it io n v e r y c l e a r.
T h a t h e t h o u g h t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h o u l d b e s t o p p e d . H e w a s
a g a in s t i t , b u t y o u w o u l d s t o p a t t h a t a n d n o t s a y h e g a v e a n
in s t r u c t i o n .
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I th in k t h e e ff e c t h a d w e - h a d w e y i e l d e d i n

e ffe c t h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n t e ll in g u s t o s t o p .

We did, but we did not

y ie l d , b u t y e s t h e e ff e c t o f w h a t h e w a s s a y in g is t h a t s t o p t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y h e m ig h t n o t h a v e p u t i t i n s o m a n y

w o r d s , b u t a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d t h a t w a s t h e e ff e c t o f w h a t h e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
was saying?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 y o u d e a l w i t h a d i ffe r e n t
s e t o f f a c t s i n t h e t i m e l in e t h a t y o u h a v e s e t o u t i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t . Yo u
s a y y o u r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m a l o n g - ti m e fr i e n d a n d c o m r a d e a n d t h is
w a s d u r in g 2 0 1 0 .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o w a s th a t ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s M r Ar c h ie L u h la b o .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t L - U - H - L - A - B- O ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d i d h e s a y t o y o u ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
C h a ir.

Just

H e a s k e d t h a t a - I w a s d r iv in g f r o m t h e a ir p o r t

a r r iv in g

on

a

Sunday

-

a f te r n o o n

J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d h e a s k e d t h a t I u r g e n t ly s e e h i m .

fr o m

o u ts i d e

H e w a s i n - in

S a x o n … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Saxonwold.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I n S a n d t o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : In S a n d t o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e w a s a t o g e t h e r w it h M s G u g u M t s h a li . M ts h a l i
t h e n , b u t n o w s h e is G u g u M o t la n t h e .

M s M o tl a n t h e a n d t h a t w e

n e e d e d t o c o n s u lt u r g e n t ly.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h e r e w a s t h is c o n s u l t a ti o n t o t a k e

place?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

It - i t t o o k p la c e a s a - a t t h e - a t th e f o r m e r -

f o r m e r D e p u ty - fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t ’s p l a c e M o t la n t h e - r e s i d e n c e private residence.
CHAIRPERSON:

R o u n d a b o u t w h e n w a s t h is ?

What - 2010?

W a s it

2010?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y a n d y o u a r e u n a b l e t o g iv e a n i n d ic a ti o n i n

t e r m s o f m o n t h ? W h e r e a b o u ts .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I - I a m u n a b l e t o d o n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t s o m e w h e r e d u r i n g 2 0 1 0 .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e d u r i n g th e fir s t h a lf o f 2 0 1 0 , s e c o n d h a l f ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : M a y b e fir s t h a l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e f ir s t h a l f, b u t y o u a r e n o t s u r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I a m n o t s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e n y o u a r r iv e d t h e r e w h o d i d y o u f in d ?

20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I fo u n d M s G u g u M t s h a li a n d M r L u h l a b o .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u t h e r e fo r a f t e r g e tt i n g t h i s c a l l d id y o u d r i v e

s tr a ig h ta w a y t o w h e r e h e w a n te d to m e e t y o u - M r L u h l a b o ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s C h a ir. I d i d . I - I d r o v e fr o m t h e a i r p o r t t o
Sandton.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. D i d y o u s a y y o u o r y o u s a i d M r L u h l a b o

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w a s a lo n g - ti m e fr ie n d o f y o u r s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o e l s e w a s t h e r e - if a n y b o d y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s j u s t t h e - t h e t h r e e o f u s fi n a l ly.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t . W h a t w a s t h e t o p i c o f t h e m e e ti n g
that ensued?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e th e y w e r e f u m i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: They were?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e y w e r e v e r y a n g r y. T h e y w e r e fu m i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t w o o f th e m ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e tw o o f t h e m . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e y - t h e y i n f o r m e d m e t h a t t h e y h a s j u s t b e e n
t o a m e e ti n g a n d I th in k a f t e r - a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g th e y p h o n e d
A d v o c a t e N o n g x i n a w h o t h e n s a id t h e y m u s t c a l l m e a n d ta lk to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s h e a t t h e - a t th e t i m e ? I s h e a D G ?

20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e w a s D G a t D M E .
CHAIRPERSON: At the Department of Mineral Resources?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . D M R .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e y h a d b e e n t o a c e r t a i n m e e t in g . A f t e r th a t
m e e ti n g t h e y c a l le d M r N o n g x i n a ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e y w e r e n o w te l li n g y o u th is ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o n ti n u e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I c a ll e d Mr N o n g x i n a a n d c h e c k e d w i th h i m a s to
w h a t i s t h i s a n d h e s a i d p l e a s e d o w h a te v e r y o u c a n to - t o c a l m t h e
s i tu a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
come there.

W e ll m a y b e ta k e u s t h r o u g h th e c o n v e r s a ti o n .

Yo u f in d t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o p e o p l e .

Yo u

Mr Luhlabo and

M s M ts h a l i a t th e ti m e .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : R i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u g r e e t o b v io u s ly.

I am - or maybe you did not

g r e e t i f p e o p l e w e r e t o o a n g r y, b u t a n y w a y y o u ta lk e d .

Te l l u s t h e

c o n v e r s a ti o n l e a d in g t o y o u r c a l li n g Mr N o n g x i n a . P u t m e i n t h e p ic tu r e
a s to …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t t h e is s u e s w e r e ? W h y w e r e t h e y a n g r y a n d a ll
of that?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I f I m a y t h e r e is c e r t a in b a c k g r o u n d fa c t s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t a r e n e c e s s a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : O f w h i c h t h e w i t n e s s h a s k n o w l e d g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t u n le s s w e p u t t h o s e b a c k g r o u n d s

b e f o r e y o u n o b o d y w i ll u n d e r s t a n d w h a t … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I - I n e e d t o o th e r w is e t h e s t o r y s o u n d s v e r y

in c o m p l e t e a n d i n c o h e r e n t . I r e a d t h e s ta t e m e n t a n d I w a s s a y i n g t h e r e
is a lo t t h a t I a m n o t h e a r in g . Yo u k n o w. I t i s l ik e i t j u m p s fr o m o n e t o
a n o t h e r a n d I t h o u g h t w e ll m a y b e i t is b e c a u s e o f In t e l li g e n c e is s u e s .
S o , b u t I - I d o w a n t t o h e a r th e s t o r y a s it h a p p e n s i f a n o t h e r w i tn e s s
10

w i ll c o m e a n d c o n fir m w h a t h e h a s s a id . I t h i n k th a t s h o u ld b e f in e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

T h e D ir e c to r w il l t e ll y o u t h e s t o r y

C h a ir, b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e s t o r y c a n n o t b e u n d e r s t o o d w i th o u t

r e fe r e n c e to s o m e b a c k g r o u n d fa c ts w h ic h I n e e d t o p u t to h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

T h o s e b a c k g r o u n d f a c ts I a m f in e .

U n l e s s y o u s a y t h o s e b a c k g r o u n d f a c ts a r e m a t t e r s t h a t s h o u l d n o t b e
t o l d h e r e , b e c a u s e o f In t e l li g e n c e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : N o , th e y - t h e y c o m m e r c ia l d e a l in g s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h ic h a r e t h e b a c k - f o r m t h e b a c k g r o u n d
t o w h a t t h i s c o n v e r s a t io n w a s a ll a b o u t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S o i t i s n e c e s s a r y t o k n o w t h e m a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . I w a n t t o k n o w th e m . J a .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d e fi n i t e l y w a n t t o k n o w t h e m .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D i r e c t o r t e l l u s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e - w e l l i f I m a y ju s t - m a y I j u s t le a d

t h e w i t n e s s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e m . O t h e r w is e w e a r e g o in g to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . N o . T h a t is fi n e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C o n fu s e e v e r y b o d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n l e a d h i m . J a .
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I c a n a s s u r e y o u o f th a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A r c e lo r M i t t a l th e m i n i n g c o m p a n y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : H a d a 2 1 p e r c e n t s t a t e i n S is h e n M i n e . I s
that correct?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And

i ts

mining

rights

e x p ir e d

on

3 0 A p r il 2 0 0 9 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h e n t h e y e x p ir e d t w o o t h e r c o m p a n i e s

a p p li e d f o r th e r ig h ts o f A r c e l o r M i t ta l?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

The

one

was

Company a subsidiary of Kumba?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : R i g h t .

Page 110 of 185

th e

S is h e n

Ir o n

Ore

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And

the

o th e r

was

I m p e r ia l

Crown

Tr a d in g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : IC T.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I C T.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

The

D ir e c t o r a n d /o r

a

D ir e c t o r

and

S h a r e h o ld e r in I C T w a s t h e v e r y M s G u g u M ts h a l i t o w h o m y o u h a v e
ju s t r e f e r r e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d A r c h ie L u h la b o . C o r r e c t.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s a n d M r L u h l a b o .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : L u h l a b o . Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

T h e tw o w e r e D i r e c t o r s in IC T.

Is t h a t

w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is w h a t I a m s a y in g C h a ir. C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d I C T w e r e o b v io u s ly s e e k in g to o b t a in
t h e g r a n t o f m in i n g r i g h t s t h a t h a d e x p ir e d in t h e h a n d s o f Ar c e lo r M it t a l
o n 3 0 A p r il 2 0 0 9 ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t i n t h is v e n tu r e t h e y w e r e c o m p e t in g

w i t h Si s h e n Ir o n O r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I s i t c o r r e c t th a t i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 9 I C T

w a s a w a r d e d th e s e m i n i n g r i g h t s ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o I w a s t o ld .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . N o w w e k n o w - w e l l p e r h a p s w e d o
n o t k n o w, b u t t h e r e w a s i n f a c t a d is p u t e a b o u t t h e l e g a li ti e s o f th e
a w a r d o f m i n i n g r i g h ts to I C T?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e r e w a s l i ti g a t i o n b e tw e e n S i s h e n

on the one hand - Kumba?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : R i g h t . C o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

A n d IC T a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f M i n e r a l

R e s o u r c e s o n th e o t h e r h a n d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t li t ig a ti o n t o o k u p s o m e t i m e i n t h e

c o u r ts . C o r r e c t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

N o w w e k n o w th a t i n M a r c h 2 0 1 0 a n d

p l e a s e c o n f ir m i f t h is in a c c o r d a n c e w it h y o u r o w n k n o w l e d g e . I C T s o l d
a 5 0 p e r c e n t s t a k e t o a n e n ti ty r e l a t e d to th e G u p t a s a n d t o
Duduzane Zuma?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s t h a t e n ti t y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o n o t t h i n k I - I h a v e g o t th e …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

C a n I r e m in d y o u w a s i t D I C ?

T h is - a l l

t h is e v id e n c e c a n b e g iv e n s e p a r a t e l y C h a i r. I t i s b a c k g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t j u s t s o t h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . W a s th a t J IC M i n i n g S e r v ic e s ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th i n k s o . T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

A n e n ti ty i n w h ic h t h e G u p ta s a n d

D u d u z a n e Z u m a h a d a n in t e r e s t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d IC T h a v in g a c q u ir e d th e r i g h ts t h a t

h a d e x p ir e d i n th e h a n d s o f A r c e lo r M i t t a l n o w s o l d a 5 0 % s ta k e i n I C T
t o a n e n ti ty r e la t e d t o th e G u p t a s a n d D u d u z a n e Z u m a . C o r r e c t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t t h e li ti g a ti o n r e s u l te d

in S is h e n a n d K u m b a a ff e c tiv e ly s e c u r i n g th o s e m i n i n g r i g h t s , b u t w e
need not go into that for the moment.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
surrender

by

ICT

of

a

B u t y o u r e v id e n c e n o w d e a ls w i t h th e
50

percent

stake

to

the

G u p ta s

and

Duduzane Zuma. Am I correct?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t w a s t h e d is p u t e th a t w a s r a is e d a t

t h a t m e e ti n g i n 2 0 1 0 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . Yo u c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e t h e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

L e t m e u n d e r s t a n d th e d is p u te .

I t is I C T.

T h e r e i s K u m b a / S is h e n . T h e r e w a s - I k n o w t h e r e w a s Ar c e l o r M i t t a l a s
w e ll a n d t h e n th e r e i s a n o t h e r c o m p a n y /e n ti ty D I - th a t y o u m e n ti o n e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : J I C …
CHAIRPERSON: JIC.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M in i n g S e r v ic e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o j u s t t e ll m e w h a t y o u w e r e to l d a t t h is

m e e ti n g t h e n in c o n n e c t i o n w i t h th e s e i s s u e s th a t s e e m t o h a v e …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O k a y. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To h a v e b e e n c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h is a n g e r t h a t y o u s a w.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s .

S o th e y - t h e y a r e a n g r y.

They are very

a n g r y a n d t h e y s a y t h a t th e y - t h e y w e r e c a ll e d to S a x o n w o ld b y
A j a y G u p t a a n d A j a y G u p t a t o l d th e m t h a t h e w a n ts 9 0 p e r c e n t o f t h a t of ICT …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Of ICT?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e m u s t g i v e h i m 9 0 p e r c e n t o f I C T, b e c a u s e h e
is t h e o n ly p e r s o n w h o h a s th e fi n a n c i a l m u s c l e a n d t h e p o li ti c a l
b a c k i n g to g e t t h a t a w a r d g r a n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t w a s a p r o s p e c ti n g r i g h t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W e ll I h a p p e n to - t o k n o w b e c a u s e I
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Yo u p r e s i d e d .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S a t i n t h e H ig h C o u r t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Yo u p r e s i d e d . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o t h e y w a n t e d 9 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e c o m p a n y. T h a t
w a s th e d i s c u s s io n t h e y h a d - t h e y h a d h a d e a r li e r w i t h A ja y a t - a t h i s
r e s id e n c e …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d th e y p h o n e d A d v o c a t e N o n g x i n a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d A d v o c a t e N o n g x in a I t h i n k w a s in L o n d o n a t
t h e ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : B e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a tr i p b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a - a n
o ffic i a l tr i p to t h e U K b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d Ms N o n g x i n a w a s i n t h e c o m p a n y o f t h e

President …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O n th a t tr i p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o th e y s a i d - M s N o n g x i n a s a id t h a t t h e y m u s t t h e y m u s t c a l l m e s o t h a t I c a n a s s is t t o - t o t a lk a b o u t t h is t h i n g .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t r o l e w e r e y o u t o p l a y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W h e n I a s k e d - I h a d t o a s k h i m a s t o w h a t is i t
that - because I do not work at DMR.
20

I have got - I have got no - I

h a v e g o t n o c l u e o f t h is . O f w h a t is g o i n g o n h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

M r - I a m t r y i n g to f o l l o w t h i s q u i te

p r o p e r ly, b e c a u s e t h e fa c t s c a n b e q u i t e c o m p l ic a te d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t m a d e M s M ts h a li a n d M r L u h l a b o a n g r y w a s
t h a t M r A j a y G u p t a h a d d e m a n d e d th a t t h e y s h o u l d g iv e h i m o r h is

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
e n t i ty 9 0 p e r c e n t s h a r e s i n I - i n I C T ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h ic h m e a n s t h e y w o u l d h a v e h a d t o s h a r e t h e

r e m a in in g 1 0 % a n d t h e y w e r e u n h a p p y a b o u t th a t , b u t m o r e t h a n t h a t
h e h a d s a i d t o t h e m a c c o r d i n g to w h a t th e y t o ld y o u h e h a d s a id h e w a s
t h e o n l y o n e w i t h t h e f i n a n c i a l m u s te r n e c e s s a r y fo r t h is p r o s p e c ti n g
r ig h t a n d h e w a s t h e o n ly o n e w h o h a d t h e r i g h t p o li ti c a l b a c k i n g , a m I
p u t t in g i t c o r r e c t ly ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d th e y h a d t h e n c a l le d M r N o g x in a w h o w a s

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f M in e r a l R e s o u r c e s a t th e ti m e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o h a p p e n e d t o b e o n a n o v e r s e a s t r i p w it h fo r m e r
President Zuma.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t , o n e o f t h e p e o p le o n t h a t tr ip .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e h a d s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e y s h o u l d t a lk t o y o u t o
d is c u s s th e m a t t e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I a m n o t s u r e w h a t h e s a i d t o th e m , b u t

u l ti m a t e ly h e a s k e d t h a t t h e y m u s t c a ll m e a n d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a , o k a y, b u t a t t h i s s ta g e y o u h e a r d t h is d i d y o u
h a v e a n i d e a h o w y o u w o u ld c o m e in , w h y a n y b o d y w o u ld w a n t y o u t o
b e c a ll e d t o h a v e – t o t a k e p a r t i n t h a t d is c u s s io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I asked him, I asked, when I phoned I said but

what do you expect me to do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d h e s a i d c o m e o n m a n , I t h in k y o u a r e t h e

g u y w h o c a n a s s is t h e r e , b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e I w a s w o r k i n g f o r S t a t e
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

H e s a id I th in k t h e s e g u y s w il l li s te n w h e n y o u

m o v e in t h e G u p ta ’s .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

B e c a u s e t h e p r o b l e m w a s n o t w i t h th e s e p e o p l e

t h e p r o b l e m w a s t h e p r e s s u r e h e s a i d h e w a s g e t ti n g t o g e t t h e s e
10

p e o p l e a g r e e t h a t t h e y m u s t s u r r e n d e r t h e i r s h a r e s to t h e G u p ta ’s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i ti o n fr o m M r N o g x i n a

h e h i m s e l f w a s g e t t in g p r e s s u r e fr o m t h e G u p t a f a m il y, i s th a t w h a t y o u
are saying?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

H e h i m s e l f w a s g e t t in g p r e s s u r e ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

H e s a i d h e w a s g e tt i n g p r e s s u r e a n d C h a ir h e

w a s i n L o n d o n a s w e l l w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t a t th a t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:
20

W h e n th e s e p e o p le w e r e p h o n i n g . S o I ’ m n o t – I

d i d n ’ t a s k i f t h e p r e s s u r e w a s n o t fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d n ’ t a s k w h e r e t h e p r e s s u r e w a s c o m i n g fr o m ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

But he said he was under pressure?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

No I did not.

Ye s .

Ye s to a t t e n d to th e i s s u e o f – to th e d e m a n d o r

Page 117 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
r e q u e s t m a d e b y t h e G u p ta f a m il y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

O k a y a l r i g h t , I t h i n k c o n ti n u e th e n , y o u h a d h a d t h i s

d is c u s s io n w i t h M r N o g x i n a a n d h o w d i d i t e n d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I a g r e e d th a t – I s a t d o w n w i th t h e m a n d I a s k e d

t h e m s o w h a t is y o u r p o s i ti o n , t h e y s a id n o , t h i s is n o w M t s h a l i a n d
L u h la b o , t h e y s a id n o w e a r e n o t g o in g t o d o t h a t b u t I s a i d , g u y s
S a n d il e is t e lli n g m e t h a t h e i s u n d e r p r e s s u r e w h a t c a n w e d o , w h a t
c a n b e d o n e b e c a u s e I ’ m h e r e n o w. S o fi n a l ly w e a g r e e d th a t w e w o u l d
10

g o t o S a x o n w o l d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

B e f o r e y o u g o t o S a x o n w o l d l e t’s ju s t

s u m m a r i s e , th e r e i s a fa c t u a l b a c k g r o u n d w h ic h m a y b e p u t b e f o r e y o u
in d u e c o u r s e C h a ir b u t th e e s s e n ti a l f a c t is t h a t I C T h a d o r h a d a
p r o s p e c t iv e i n te r e s t i n m i n i n g r i g h ts .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A t c e s s i o n C o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s a n d t h a t w a s i n c e s s io n .

Ja.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

R i g h t s o t h e y h a v e t h i s , l e t ’s c a ll i t f o r

w a n t o f a b e t t e r w o r d , a s s e t o r p r o s p e c t iv e a s s e t i n t h e ir c o m p a n y.
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Fr o m w h a t y o u s a y is th e G u p t a ’s w a n t e d

9 0 % o f t h a t c o m p a n y n o w, o f I C T?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

A n d M s M t s h a li a n d M r L u h l a b o w e r e

a n g e r e d b y t h is c l a i m ?

Page 118 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e r e w a s a d is p u t e th e r e fo r e

b e t w e e n t h e G u p ta ’s o n t h e o n e h a n d w h o w a n te d a l a r g e s li c e o f th e
I C T c a k e a n d t h e o w n e r s o f t h a t c a k e M s M t s h a li o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d
L u h la b o o n th e o t h e r.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

R i g h t s o t h e r e ’s a d i s p u t e a n d y o u a r e

a s k e d t o a s s is t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

So what did you do pursuant to your –

w e ll i t w a s n ’ t a m a n d a te , p u r s u a n t to t h e r e q u e s t m a d e t o y o u ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

W e t h e n a g r e e d th a t w e w o u l d g o t o th e G u p t a ’s

b u t t h e l a d y M s M ts h a l i c a ll e d A ja y o n h is c e l l t o s a y th a t I a m c o m i n g
w i t h G i b s o n N je n je , S a n d i le s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e c o m e a n d ta lk t o y o u –
S a n d il e N o g x i n a .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a t t h i s s t a g e d i d y o u s e e y o u r r o le a s m e d ia t in g

b e t w e e n th e p a r t i e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r t h a t i s h o w I s a w m y r o l e .

O k a y.

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

J u s t o n e t h in g i f I m a y, i t ’s p e r h a p s n o t

t o o r e l e v a n t g iv e n t h e f a c ts t h a t y o u ’v e o u tli n e d b u t i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t
y o u s a y t h a t w h e n y o u g o t t o t h e h o u s e o f f o r m e r P r e s id e n t M o t l a n th e
in S a n d t o n , M r N o g x i n a w a s th e r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

No.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

H e w a s n ’ t?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

N o h e w a s n o t , h e w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

[ I n d is t i n c t] y o u r s t a te m e n t in s o f a r a s it

says here.
D IR E C TO R

NJENJE:

T h a t’s

incorrect,

he

was

in

London

w h e n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Okay he telephoned?

Ye s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lr ig h t , n o w w e ’r e o ff to S a x o n w o ld a s I

u n d e r s t a n d it ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ta k e u p t h e s t o r y fr o m t h e r e p l e a s e ?

B e f o r e g o in g t o S a x o n w o ld M s M t s h a li c a l l e d

A j a y G u p t a a n d to l d h i m t h a t t h e y w e r e c o m in g w i t h m e to d i s c u s s t h e
is s u e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e l e t’s g o b a c k t o M r N o g x in a ’s

s u g g e s t io n t h a t y o u s h o u l d b e i n v o lv e d . D o y o u k n o w w h y M r N o g x in a
w o u ld h a v e p ic k e d y o u o u t o f a ll p e o p l e t o s a y y o u s h o u l d b e i n v o lv e d
a n d m e d i a t e , i f m e d ia t e i s t h e r i g h t w o r d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e f r i e n d s C h a i r.

W e a r e c l o s e fr i e n d s .

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t m a d e h i m t o th i n k o f m e

w h e n h e w a s i n t h a t p o s it i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

B u t o f c o u r s e a s I s a y, h e k n e w th a t I a m

w o r k i n g f o r S t a t e S e c u r i ty a t th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y s o m a y b e f o r w h a te v e r r e a s o n h e m i g h t h a v e

t h o u g h t t h a t , th a t b a c k g r o u n d m i g h t a s s is t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja yes.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I th in k s o C h a ir.

I th in k t h a t w a s h i s r a ti o n a le .

Okay so maybe he just knew that you have some

s k i lls in m e d ia t io n d o y o u h a v e a n y e x p e r i e n c e o f m e d i a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Well I can make people talk – I can make people

get together and talk.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s .

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

Ye s M r S h a ik w a s p o li t e y o u a r e m o d e s t

it s e e m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t y e s s o a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d th e p o s i ti o n

w h e n M s M t s h a li a n d M r L u h la b o e x p la i n e d t o y o u a t t h e m e e ti n g w h y
20

d i d Mr A j a y G u p t a m a k e t h is d e m a n d t o t h e m a n d w h y d id h e m a k e a
d e m a n d fo r s u c h a h i g h p e r c e n t a g e o f th e ir c o m p a n y o r d i d t h a t n o t
tr a n s p ir e i n th e d i s c u s s io n , e v e n b e f o r e y o u m e t M r A ja y G u p t a
b e c a u s e o b v i o u s ly t o g o a n d m e d ia t e y o u n e e d to u n d e r s ta n d th e a c t u a l
d is p u te a n d t h e b a s is fo r t h e d is p u t e o r t h e g r o u n d s f o r t h e v a r i o u s
p o s i ti o n s o f t h e p a r ti e s ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C h a ir I t h o u g h t i t w a s a v e r y u n fa ir s i t u a t io n in

t h e f ir s t p la c e a n d I m e a n , a f t e r t h e y e x p l a i n e d t o m e t h a t t h is is – h o w
f a r w e a r e c o m i n g w i t h t h i s s i t u a t io n , t h e i r p r o j e c t , t h i s is h o w f a r w e
a r e c o m i n g t h e y w e r e n o w h e r e w e d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y t h i n g t o d o w i th t h e m ,
w e h a v e n o th i n g t o d o w i t h t h e m e v e n n o w b u t w h e n t h e y c o m e t h e y
e s t a b li s h fr o m w h e r e v e r t h a t t h e y a r e th e h o l d e r s o f t h is 2 1 % a n d t h e y
w e r e ju s t k i n g o f b u lly i n g , I t h in k .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e p o s i t io n , n o w th a t y o u

m e n ti o n 2 1 % I t h i n k I s e e m t o r e c a ll t h a t, t h a t w h o l e li t ig a ti o n w a s
10

a b o u t 2 1 % o f t h e p r o s p e c ti n g r i g h t . A t th a t t i m e o f y o u r b e i n g in v o lv e d
in t h e d i s c u s s io n s I C T h a d a lr e a d y b e e n g r a n t e d t h e p r o s p e c ti n g r i g h t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

O h s o th e y h a d b e e n d o i n g a l o t o f w o r k a n d t h e n

a ft e r t h e y g o t t h is th e n Mr A ja y G u p t a w a s s a y in g I w a n t 9 0 % o f t h a t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

O h o k a y a lr i g h t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A s w e k n o w fr o m t h e l i ti g a t i o n a n d th e

o u t c o m e o f th e li t ig a ti o n , I C T lo s t t h o s e p r o s p e c ti n g r i g h ts b u t t h a t w a s
la t e r.
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

That was later yes.

A t th e t i m e t h e a p p r o a c h w a s m a d e b y M r G u p t a ,

t h o s e r i g h ts w e r e h e l d b y I C T s u b j e c t t o t h e c la i m t h a t w a s m a d e
a g a in s t t h e m .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct.

A n d a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d th e p o s i t io n a t th e ti m e o f

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t h a t m e e ti n g w e r e M s M ts h a l i a n d M r L u h l a b o th e o n ly D ir e c t o r s o f – i n
I C T?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t th e o n ly D ir e c t o r s .

T h e y s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t t h e o n ly … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

They were the Directors who were in town, I

t h i n k th e o t h e r D ir e c t o r w a s i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y a lr i g h t , th a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o d i d y o u t h e n t a k e u p y o u r m is s i o n a s

mediator or?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I d i d C h a ir.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

And what did you do?

Ms M ts h a l i t o l d m e t h a t s h e c a l l e d h i m o n th e

p h o n e a n d h e s a id , n o i t ’s fi n e t h e y c a n b r in g m e a l o n g s o w e w e n t a n d
they opened the doors and greeted and we sat there.

H e w a s li k e ,

s iz in g m e u p a s w e w e r e c h a t ti n g a n d m a k i n g j o k e s – h e w a s m a k i n g
jo k e s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Si z i n g y o u u p lik e w h a t ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u m e a n h e w a s l o o k in g a t y o u ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I f e lt li k e t h a t .

O k a y, s o i t w a s n o w t h e t h r e e o f y o u p l u s h i m .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

L i k e lo o k in g m e u p a n d d o w n .

P l u s h i m , c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

S o I in tr o d u c e d m y s e l f , I t o l d h i m th a t I’ m

G ib s o n N j e n j e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u m e e ti n g h i m f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s t h e v e r y fir s t ti m e C h a ir.

O k a y.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s , a n d h e s a id n o , I k n o w y o u r n a m e I k n o w

w h e r e y o u a r e w o r k i n g , I s a y, j a o k a y a n d t h e n w e s t a r te d t h e
d is c u s s io n . I w a n t e d to k n o w b u t t h e s e g u y s a r e c o m p l a in i n g th a t y o u
a r e ta k i n g t h e i r c o m p a n y, h e s a id , n o I’ m n o t t a k i n g t h e c o m p a n y, w e
a r e g o i n g t o h e l p t h e m o t h e r w i s e a s t h e y a r e t h e y w il l w a lk a w a y w i t h
n o t h i n g , s o 1 0 % is b e tt e r th a n n o t h in g a n d t h a t th e y a r e n o t g r e e d y, t h e
10

p o i n t i s th e r e a r e ju s t to o m a n y o n t h e i r s id e w h o a r e g o in g t o s h a r e
fr o m t h a t 9 0 % .
CHAIRPERSON:

Just repeat that.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I s a y C h a ir, h e e x p la in e d t o m e th a t t h e r e a s o n

w h y t h e y w a n t e d 9 0 % is n o t b e c a u s e th e y a r e g r e e d y, h e is n o t g r e e d y
h e h a s g o t m a n y p e o p l e th a t h e h a s g o t t o lo o k a ft e r in t h a t 9 0 % .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that what he said?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is w h a t h e s a id C h a ir.

Mmm.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

Before you go on when he said to you

t h a t – t h i s i s Mr G u p t a , w h e n h e s a i d t o y o u I k n o w w h o y o u a r e a n d I
k n o w w h e r e y o u w o r k , w h a t d i d y o u g a th e r fr o m t h a t , w h y d i d h e s a y
t h a t , d o y o u t h in k ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I think – I couldn’t make out why he was saying

s o a t t h e ti m e b u t a t a s u b s e q u e n t m e e t in g h e th e n t o ld m e w h y h e
knows about me.

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n a n y e v e n t w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f

t h a t m e e ti n g ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e b e f o r e t h e o u tc o m e I d o w a n t t o h e a r t h e

c o n te n t o f t h e d i s c u s s io n u p t o t h e o u tc o m e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W e l l C h a ir th e o th e r tw o – th e o th e r p a r ty, M s

M t s h a li a n d L u h l a b o t h e y w e r e v e r y a d a m a n t t h a t n o , t h i s i s n o t g o i n g
t o h a p p e n y o u c a n ’ t – I m e a n t h e y w e r e r a i s i n g e v e n p o l i tic a l i s s u e s ,
t h a t y o u g u y s , y o u a r e j u s t f o r e i g n e r s h e r e a n d y o u j u s t w a n t t o b u l ly
u s l ik e t h i s it ’s n o t g o i n g to h a p p e n . S o I h a d t o c a l m t h e m d o w n a n d
10

s a y, g u y s r e m e m b e r I w a s ta lk in g t o t h e D G a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t th e
D G k n o w s , le t ’s ju s t s e e w h a t i t i s t h a t w e c a n c o m e o u t w i th h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n s i m p ly t h a t M r A j a y G u p t a w a s

s i m p l y d e m a n d in g s o m e th i n g fr o m th e m f o r w h ic h h e h a d n o b a s is
r e a l ly ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t t h e p o s i t io n ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir a s I s a id … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

T h a t is t h e p o s i t io n C h a ir, t h a t w a s th e p o s i ti o n .

T h e o n l y – w a s t h e o n l y b a s is t h a t h e s a i d h e h a s g o t

t h e fi n a n c i a l m u s c le a n d h e h a s g o t p o li t ic a l b a c k in g ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d a s I’ m s a y i n g I k n e w a t

t h a t ti m e t h a t S a n d i le is i n L o n d o n a n d h e is w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

So I wasn’t sure whether he is – the pressure is

n o t fr o m t h a t s i d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

So you have the situation here where

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
s o m e b o d y j u s t d e c id e s t o s a y, I k n o w y o u r c o m p a n y h a s g o t s o m e
p r o s p e c t i n g r i g h t s o r m in in g r ig h ts I w a n t 9 0 % o f i t a n d t h a t’s w h a t I
w a n t a n d t h e r e is n o b a s is , i t’s n o t lik e I m a d e a n y c o n tr ib u ti o n o r
a n y th in g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I t h i n k t h e o th e r t h i n g C h a ir, h e w a s a d d i n g

w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

He was?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

H e w a s a d d i n g to h is a r g u m e n t w a s t h a t h e i s in

t o u c h w i th I s o m e t a l, I t h in k th e C h a ir m a n o f I s o m e ta l a n d t h e y w e r e
10

g o i n g t o w o r k o u t s o m e m e c h a n i s ms , s o m e s tr u c tu r e t h a t w o u l d n o t
m a k e I s o m e t a l to c o m p e t e a g a i n to g o t o C o u r t a n d l i ti g a t e t h a t w o u l d
b e h a n d le d b y h i m a n d h i s t e a m , I t h i n k t h a t w a s a n a d d i t io n a l is s u e
t h a t h e w a s p u t ti n g i n a s w h a t t h e y a r e o ff e r i n g i n t h e m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s c o n t in u e w i t h th e d is c u s s i o n , a n y t h in g e l s e

i m p o r t a n t i n t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t w a s s a i d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

S o th e d is c u s s i o n w e n t o n t o s a y, n o , n o I t h in k

t h e t w o f e l lo w s w e r e a ls o n o w s ta r t in g t o c o n c e d e th a t , y o u k n o w, t h is
is g o i n g t o b e d i ff ic u l t . Th e n I s a i d g u y s , w h a t a r e y o u o ffe r i n g , I a s k e d
t h e m w h a t a r e y o u o ff e r in g t o th is p e r s o n a n d h e s a i d , n o i f a n y th i n g
20

t h e y m u s t b u y, I s a i d y e s y o u ’ r e r i g h t t h e y m u s t b u y th e ir s h a r e a n d t h e
r is k a n d fo ll o w w h a t e v e r it is t h a t t h e y s a y th e y c a n d o b u t i f t h e y w a n t
t o p a r t ic ip a t e t h e y m u s t b u y. S o A j a y s a i d , n o , n o , n o w e ’r e n o t g o i n g
to do that.
CHAIRPERSON:

I m e a n is t h e p o s i t i o n th a t Mr A j a y G u p t a w a s

d e m a n d i n g to b e g i v e n t h is 9 0 % f o r fr e e ?

Page 126 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

N o h e s a id i t w a s n o t f o r fr e e C h a ir. H e s a i d –

t h e in p u t t h a t t h e y w e r e g o in g to m a k e w a s m o r e th a n t h a t 9 0 % .
CHAIRPERSON:

But he was not going to pay any cash?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

He was not going to put in any money no.

S o h e s a i d h e w il l m a k e a n i n p u t i n to h o w t h e

c o m p a n y w o u l d r u n , th e b u s i n e s s a n d s o o n a n d n e g o t ia t io n s w i t h
Is o m e t a l w h a t e v e r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

H e w o u l d m a k e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

H e w a s n o t g o i n g t o b u y th e s e s h a r e s ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

No he was not going to buy the shares but he

w a s g o in g t o m a k e a l l m a n n e r o f p r o b l e m s g o a w a y b e c a u s e o f h is
in fl u e n c e a n d b e c a u s e h e ’s g o t th e m o n e y, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o a s I u n d e r s t a n d it , M r G u p t a in e ff e c t

d e m a n d e d 9 0 % o f IC T ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

H e s a i d th a t a l t h o u g h h e w o u l d n o t p a y

f o r t h e s h a r e s h e w o u l d , t h r o u g h h i s o w n i n fl u e n c e a n d f in a n c ia l
b a c k i n g a s s is t IC T t o o v e r c o m e i ts p r o b l e m s in a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s ,
20

t h e li ti g a ti o n t h a t w a s c u r r e n t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .
W a s th e li t ig a ti o n p e n d in g a t t h a t t i m e a s y o u

u n d e r s t o o d th e p o s it i o n o r w a s it n o t t h e r e y e t o r w a s it s ti ll c o m in g ,
what was your understanding as at that time?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e l it ig a ti o n w a s p e n d in g a t t h e

Page 127 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
ti m e , I’ m n o t s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h a t c a n b e e s ta b lis h e d .

Ye s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t w e k n o w th a t a t th e ti m e I C T e n j o y e d

t h e 2 1 , 4 % s h a r e o r i n th e p r o s p e c t i n g r ig h t s t h a t c l a i m w a s c h a l le n g e d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Can you repeat please?

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A t t h e t i m e t h o s e p r o s p e c ti n g r i g h ts w e r e

h e l d t o t h e e x t e n t o f 2 1 % b y I C T t h a t c la i m o r in t e r e s t w a s u n d e r
10

c h a l le n g e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w d id M s M t s h a l i a n d M r L u h l a b o a s k M r G u p t a o n

w h a t b a s is h e th o u g h t h e c o u ld j u s t g e t 9 0 % f r o m t h e m o r m a y b e t h a t’s
s o m e t h i n g t h e y m a y h a v e a s k e d i n t h e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g b u t d i d n ’ t a s k
when you were there?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

C h a ir t h e y d i d a n d t h e y w e r e n o t ju s t a s k i n g

t h e y w e r e a ls o s h o u ti n g a t h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y w e r e s h o u ti n g a t h i m ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:
20

Ye s w h a t r i g h t d o y o u h a v e , y o u a r e j u s t a

f o r e i g n e r y o u c o m e in h e r e y o u ’r e c o m i n g to g r a b a n d y o u k n o w, y e s
t h a t w a s t h e t y p e o f l a n g u a g e t h a t w a s e m p l o y e d a t th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u s a y a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e o f t h e m e e ti n g

t h e y b e g a n to w a r m u p t o c o n c e d e i n s o m e t h i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y d i d C h a ir.

M a y b e w a r m u p is t h e w r o n g w o r d b u t t h e y s e e m e d

Page 128 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
to be prepared to make some concessions?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

U l ti m a t e l y w h a t c o n c e s s io n d i d t h e y m a k e ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

The final concession was a 50/50.

5 0 /5 0 ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y d i d m a k e c o n c e s s io n s C h a ir.

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d w a s h e s ti ll n o t g o i n g t o p a y a n y t h i n g f o r th e

50%?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

No?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:
work

hard

and

No.

No.

It m u s t b e q u i te to u g h t o w o r k f o r – y o u r c o m p a n y
then

have,

to

just

g iv e

50%

a w a y.

On

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t is i t t h a t w a s m a k i n g t h e m d e c id e t h a t it w a s fi n e –
m a y b e f in e is t h e w r o n g w o r d t h a t t h e y s h o u ld n e v e r t h e l e s s g iv e h i m
t h is 5 0 % s h a r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I ’l l h a v e to m o v e t h e n fo r w a r d in t o m y s t a t e m e n t

t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h o k a y w e l l i f y o u a r e a b l e t o a n s w e r i t n o w, a n s w e r

it n o w, l a te r o n y o u c a n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s , I m e t A j a y G u p ta s u b s e q u e n t t o th is

m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I m e t h i m a t m y r e q u e s t , I s a id I w a n te d t o s e e

h i m , I w a n t e d t o t a lk to h i m .

Page 129 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

A n d w h e n w e s a t h e t o l d m e t h a t – w e ll h e

a g r e e d th a t I s h o u ld c o m e t o t h a t m e d ia t i n g m e e t in g – to t h a t m e e t in g
t h a t I m e d i a te d i n .

H e a g r e e d t h a t I s h o u l d b e th e o n e to c o m e i n

b e c a u s e a f t e r G u g u c a ll e d h i m , w h e n w e w e r e s ti ll a t G u g u M ts h a l i’s
h o u s e h e c h e c k e d w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e t h e r o r n o t I ’ m th e r i g h t
p e r s o n a n d t h e Pr e s i d e n t s a id to h i m , th a t ’s a g o o d o l d fr ie n d , h e ’l l s o r t
t h i n g s o u t , d o n ’ t w o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M m m , s o e ffe c tiv e ly h e c h e c k e d w i th th e Pr e s id e n t

w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d b e t h e r i g h t p e r s o n t o m e d i a t e s o to s p e a k i n th is
d is p u te ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s b u t fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v ie w o f M s M ts h a l i a n d M r

L u h la b o a s a t th a t m e e t in g w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t t h e y
t h o u g h t t h e y w o u l d l o s e i f t h e y d i d n ’ t a g r e e t o g iv e t h i s m a n 5 0 % s h a r e
for free?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Chair I think at that time people knew that these

w e r e fr ie n d s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h e s e w e r e fr ie n d s o f t h e Pr e s id e n t?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

Ye s , s o t h e y – y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u l d b e t h a t t h e y

m u s t h a v e t h o u g h t a b o u t w h a t a p p e a r e d t o b e c l o s e n e s s t o th e
P r e s i d e n t th a t h e h a d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

A n d t h a t t h e w a y h e w a s i n s is ti n g t h e y m i g h t e n d u p

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
g e t t in g n o t h i n g , m a y b e th e y s h o u l d c o n c e d e s o m e t h i n g , w o u l d t h a t b e
t h e k i n d o f t h i n k i n g t h a t y o u h a d , I ’ m ju s t l o o k i n g a t w h a t y o u t h o u g h t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

E v e n t h e m e r e m e n ti o n C h a ir t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t

m o r e p e o p l e i t w a s s u g g e s ti v e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, yes.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u Mr P r e t o r iu s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D u r in g t h e m e e ti n g a t S a x o n w o l d w h e r e

t h e d e m a n d o f Mr G u p ta f o r a n i n t e r e s t in I C T w a s d is c u s s e d a n d d e a l t
10

w i t h a s y o u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir it w a s d e a l t w i t h , d i d th e n a m e o f t h e
former President come up?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

N o t a t t h e m e e ti n g , n o t w h e n I w a s t h e r e w i t h

Archie and Gugu.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o in t h a t r e s p e c t i f y o u l o o k a t th e la s t

s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 9 , y o u r s ta t e m e n t w o u l d n e e d t o b e c o r r e c t e d ,
am I correct?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I th in k t h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
20

T h e s t a te m e n t?

Ye s , th e s t a te m e n t a s i t i s r e f l e c ti n g h e r e .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

R i g h t c a n y o u r e c a ll n o w th e c o n t e x t in

w h ic h th e n a m e o f th e Pr e s i d e n t w a s m e n ti o n e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s I c a n .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

Te l l th e C h a i r p l e a s e ?

C h a ir a s I s a i d h e r e , h e m e n ti o n e d t h a t t h e y

h a v e g o t th e m o n e y t o d o t h e d e a l b e c a u s e th e d e a l i s g o in g t o b e v e r y

Page 131 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
e x p e n s iv e fo r a n y o n e w h o c o m e s i n f o r t h a t 2 1 % , t o fi n a n c e t h a t 2 1 % ,
s e c o n d ly t h a t th e y w e r e t a l k i n g t o K h u m b a a n d K h u m b a k n e w t h a t t h e y
h a v e g o t t h is i n te r e s t .

I s o m e ta l t h e y w e r e i n c o n tr o l o f b e c a u s e

Is o m e t a l h a d lo s t t h e ir r i g h t a n d t h e n t h a t w i t h th e s u p p o r t o f th e
P r e s i d e n t th e y w e r e g o i n g t o g e t t h e d e a l.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e s a i d t h is – M r A j a y G u p t a s a i d th is a t t h e m e e ti n g

w h ic h y o u a t te n d e d t o g e t h e r w i t h M s M t s h a l i a n d M r L u h la b o ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Ye s o k a y.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u r e f e r r e d , a m o m e n t a g o , D ir e c to r t o

a f u r t h e r m e e t in g w i t h Mr A ja y G u p t a .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Was that in 2010?

T h a t’s s ti ll i n 2 0 1 0 c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A t w h o s e i n s t a n c e w a s t h i s m e e ti n g

arranged?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

At my instance.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
20

W h y d id y o u d o s o ?

C h a ir t h e is s u e o f t h e f a m il y a s w e h a v e t e s t if i e d

h e r e w a s g e t ti n g t h e b e t te r o f u s a n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Us being?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.

Ye s o k a y.

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

A n d m y s e lf a s th e h e a d o f C o u n t e r In t e l li g e n c e

in t h e c o u n t r y. I … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

Page 132 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON:

Th is m e e t in g n o w w h i c h y o u r e q u e s te d t h is w o u l d

h a v e b e e n r o u n d a b o u t w h e n , I j u s t w a n t t o h a v e a s e n s e o f ti m e a n d
year?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h it w a s s t ill 2 0 1 0 ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

10

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e a f e w w e e k s a ft e r.

A fe w w e e k s a f t e r th e f ir s t , th e i n it i a l m e e ti n g .

Ye s b u t j u s t t o r o u n d o ff th a t m e e ti n g , s o t h e – a n

a g r e e m e n t w a s r e a c h e d i n th a t m e e t in g i n t e r m s o f w h ic h M s M t s h a li
a n d Mr L u h la b o a g r e e d to g i v e A ja y G u p t a o r w h a t e v e r e n ti ty h e m i g h t
h a v e u s e d 5 0 % s h a r e s o f IC T ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that right?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t e n ti ty w a s g o i n g t o b e

u s e d o r t h a t w a s l e ft f o r l a te r t o b e s o r t e d o u t , th a t w i ll c o m e l a t e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J Y C o r J IC ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

H e h a s r e m in d e d m e i t w a s c a ll e d J IC I th i n k .

JIC.

J I C o k a y, a lr ig h t th a t w a s t h e o n e t o b e u s e d b y A j a y

Gupta?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y a n d t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d o n t h a t b a s is a n d t h a t

w a s i t fo r t h a t t i m e ?

Page 133 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th e y w e r e s ti ll v e r y a n g r y a n d … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

T h e y w e r e s ti ll v e r y a n g r y ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ja and I assume – did you report back to Mr

Nogxina?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

I did.

Ye s .

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I told him, I said, hey you put me on the spot

h e r e a n d – b u t th is i s w h a t c a m e o u t f in a lly.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I g u e s s y o u e a s e d t h e p r e s s u r e o n h i m ?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

I guess you eased the pressure on him?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Excuse me?

W e ll h e t h a n k e d m e , h e d i d .

Ye s o k a y a lr i g h t, s o l e t ’s g o b a c k t o t h i s m e e ti n g t h a t

y o u r e q u e s te d w i t h Mr A ja y G u p t a a f e w w e e k s l a t e r.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct we did meet.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Where?

W e m e t a t S a x o n w o ld .

At the Gupta residence?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u m e e t ?

A t th e G u p t a r e s id e n c e y e s .

Ye s o k a y.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u r p u r p o s e i n r e q u e s t in g t h e

m e e ti n g ?

Page 134 of 185

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

C h a ir a s I s a y w e w e r e – I w a s w o r r i e d a s w e l l

a b o u t th e i n f l u e n c e o f t h e s e p e o p le o n t h e P r e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n t r y.
A n d t h a t w a s t h e s o l e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g .

It was to address – I

a d d r e s s e d t o h i m o u r c o n c e r n s a s S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y. B a s i c a ll y I –
w h e n h e s a id t o m e h e h e l d m e a s w e ll w h e n h e s a id t o m e t h a t h e
a g r e e d t o m e e t a t t h e in i ti a l m e e t i n g b e c a u s e t h e P r e s id e n t s a i d I a m a
g o o d o l d fr i e n d . I s a i d n o w y o u s a y y o u h e a r t h e Pr e s id e n t s a y I a m a
g o o d o l d fr i e n d a n d i n d e e d I a m a g o o d o l d fr i e n d . W h a t is y o u r r o le i n
t h is ?
10

B e c a u s e y o u g u y s a r e p u t ti n g t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e g o v e r n i n g

p a r t y in p r o b le m s . E v e r y d a y t h e r e is b a d p u b l ic i t y. T h e r e is D u d u z a n e
Z u m a m e n t io n e d a l l d a y l o n g w h y a r e y o u n o t p r o t e c t in g ? If y o u s a y h e
is y o u r fr i e n d w h y a r e y o u n o t p r o te c ti n g y o u r fr ie n d ?

He said Mr

G ib s o n y o u – y o u a r e r ig h t .

I h a v e g o t n o is s u e .

I do not go about

t a lk in g a b o u t t h e P r e s i d e n t .

H e i s – h e i s a fa m i ly f r i e n d .

H e is m y

fr i e n d . I w il l h a v e t o ta lk t o m y b r o th e r b e c a u s e h e is th e o n e w h o is –
w h o g o e s a b o u t h a r a s s in g p e o p l e a n d t h i s a n d t h a t. B u t I w i ll d o t h a t .
I am so happy that you came and spoke to us.
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

D o y o u k n o w w h ic h b r o t h e r h e w a s

r e fe r r i n g t o ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I – I assumed.

I a s s u m e d C h a ir t h a t h e w a s –

b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t – I h a v e n e v e r m e t h i m b u t I h a v e h e a r d t h a t is a
r o u g h c h a r a c te r w h o c a n u s e c o l o u r f u l la n g u a g e w it h p e o p l e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o is th a t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h is i s A t u l .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A t u l ? W a s a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r d i s c u s s e d ? I

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
a m s u r e l o ts w a s d is c u s s e d b u t o n t h e t h e m e t h a t y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t w a s
a n y th in g f u r th e r d is c u s s e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C h a ir w e d id n o t d is c u s s f o r a lo n g t i m e .

I

w a n t e d t o c o n v e y a m e s s a g e a n d t o s a y t h a t w e a r e w o r r i e d a s S t a te
S e c u r i ty A g e n c y.

And he agreed.

H e r e a d ily a g r e e d h e s a i d , n o I

understand what you mean.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e m e e ti n g h i m in a n o ff ic ia l

c a p a c i ty a s p a r t o f y o u r – w h a t y o u b e l ie v e d w a s y o u r j o b t o d o ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: ja.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s C h a ir.

I n s o fa r a s I w a s c o n c e r n e d I w a s

d o i n g t h a t a n d I r e p o r t e d b a c k t o m y c o ll e a g u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A t t h e t o p t h r e e t h a t h a d m a d e t h e m e e t in g a n d I
m a d e t h e p o i n ts t o M r A ja y G u p t a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h a t y o u g o t f r o m h i m w a s t h a t h e s a i d h e
a g r e e d y o u w e r e r i g h t t h e r e s h o u l d – th e y s h o u l d p r o t e c t t h e Pr e s id e n t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e s a i d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t h e s a i d ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e a g r e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: H e a g r e e d t h a t i t is n o t g o o d f o r th e Pr e s id e n t t o
b e r e c e iv i n g b a d p u b l ic i t y a n d a l l o f t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d h e a t a n y s ta g e a t te m p t t o ju s t i fy o r

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
explain

his

f a mi ly ’s

relationship

with

the

P r e s id e n t ,

th e

former

President?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S i m i la r t o w h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t s a y s . H e s a y s w e
h a v e m e t m y b r o th e r h a s m e t – t h e b r o th e r w h o c a m e i n f ir s t m e t
M a n d e la a n d h e m e t M b e k i a n d s o th e y a r e a l s o m e e ti n g Z u m a . Th e y
m e t Z u m a e v e n w h e n h e w a s in tr o u b le w h e r e h e d i d n o t h a v e a n y
p o s i ti o n in g o v e r n m e n t .

Th e y s ti ll c o n ti n u e d t o m e e t .

c o n ti n u e d t o l o o k a f te r D u d u z a n e .

T h e y s t il l

Th a t w a s t h e e n d o f th a t h e w a s

taken.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . D i d M in is te r C w e l e ’s n a m e c r o p u p
in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t d i d i n d e e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : P le a s e te ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t th a t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C h a ir A j a y G u p t a t h e n t u r n e d a n d l o o k e d a t m e

a n d s a id , c a n y o u t e l l m e w h a t is t h e in t e r e s t o f M r C w e l e o r D o c t o r
C w e le in t h e f a m il y – i n h is f a m il y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e G u p ta f a m ily ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. But he was asking you?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e w a s a s k i n g m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: A n d I s a id I h a v e g o t n o id e a w h a t d o y o u m e a n
h e h a s g o t a n i n te r e s t i n y o u r f a m il y ?

H e th e n r e l a t e d a s to r y t o s a y

t h a t th e r e h a d b e e n a n A N C – a f u n d r a is e r i n D u r b a n w h i c h w a s h e l d a t
t h e H il t o n H o t e l . I c o u ld f a in t ly r e m e m b e r. I c o u l d v a g u e ly r e m e m b e r

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t h a t . A n d I s a i d , o h o k a y. H e s a i d a t t h a t f u n d r a is i n g d i n n e r h is f a m il y
t h e y b o u g h t a t a b le a n d M i n is t e r s w e r e d e p l o y e d – d i ff e r e n t M in is t e r s
w e r e d e p l o y e d a t d i ff e r e n t ta b l e s . A n d a n o t h e r M i n is t e r w a s d e p l o y e d a t
t h e ir ta b le . B u t C w e l e c a m e to r e m o v e d – to r e m o v e t h a t M i n is te r a n d
a s k h i m to g o a n d s i t w h e r e h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o s i t a n d h i m j o in in g t h e
G u p t a f a m i ly.

I s a i d t o h i m , n o I d o n o t k n o w.

A n d fr a n k ly I d i d n o t

k n o w w h a t it is – w h a t t h e M i n i s te r C w e l e w a s i n te r e s t e d i n .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

Yo u t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 2 1 r e f e r t o a

m e e ti n g b e t w e e n w h a t y o u r e fe r to a s t h e t o p t h r e e .
10

I t a k e i t t h a t is

y o u r s e l f , M r S h a ik a n d A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is h o w w e w e r e c a l le d a t t h e f a r m .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h is m e e ti n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: T h e p u r p o s e o f th e m e e ti n g w a s t o - to r a i s e o u r
c o n c e r n s a b o u t M i n i s te r C w e l e w i th P r e s i d e n t Z u m a .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Wa s – w a s t h is t h e m e e t in g to w h i c h M r

S h a i k r e f e r r e d a s h a v i n g o c c u r r e d i m m e d ia t e ly a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g w i t h
M i n is t e r C w e l e w h e r e h e r a is e d h i s v ie w s o n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d to
t h e G u p t a f a m ily ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S a m e m e e ti n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t d o y o u r e c o l le c t o f t h a t m e e t in g

then?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I c a n r e m e m b e r th a t Pr e s id e n t Zu m a a d d r e s s e d

u s o n th e is s u e o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n h i m s e l f a n d t h e G u p t a

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f a m ily. I t w a s a l o n g n a r r a ti o n t h a t h e g a v e o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p . B u t t h e
m a in c h a r a c t e r i s tic s b e i n g th e s a m e a s w h a t G u p t a w a s s a y i n g th a t
t h e y a r e c o m in g fr o m a g o o d f a m il y i n I n d ia . Br o u g h t u p b y t h e – b y a
g o o d fa t h e r. H o w t h e y t o o k D u d u z a n e a n d D u d u z il e i n to t h e ir c o m p a n y
a n d h o w th e y h e l p e d t h e m t h r o u g h .

A n d e s p e c ia ll y a t th e ti m e t h a t

P r e s i d e n t Zu m a – a t t h e ti m e D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t w a s r e m o v e d . A n d h o w
t h e c h il d r e n w e r e g r o w i n g o u t w i th o u t a m o th e r a n d a l l o f th o s e i s s u e s .
B a s ic a l ly h e w a s e x p l a i n in g t h a t i t w a s a c le a n r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t h e w a s
having.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

In c l u d i n g h o w g o o d t h e G u p t a f a m ily h a d b e e n t o –

had been to…
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : To h is c h i l d r e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To h is c h il d r e n j a .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r S h a i k
o n e o f t h e p u r p o s e s t h is m e e ti n g w a s to r a is e w it h th e P r e s i d e n t i s s u e s
20

a r o u n d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o th e G u p t a fa m il y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A m I c o r r e c t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :
that regard.

A n d M r S h a ik g a v e le n g th y e v id e n c e i n

D i d y o u a t t h e m e e ti n g r a i s e y o u r c o n c e r n s a s th e t o p

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t h r e e i n r e l a ti o n t o w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n to t h e G u p t a
f a m ily s h o u l d c o n t in u e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t h i n k w e s t a r te d b y m a k i n g o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n t o
t h e Pr e s i d e n t t o s a y th a t w e a r e c o m in g t o r a is e o u r c o n c e r n s a s w e ll
a b o u t t h a t – a b o u t t h a t is s u e .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

R ig h t .

And what was the – besides

s p e a k i n g a b o u t h is r e l a t i o n s h ip w i th t h e G u p t a f a m ily, e x p la i n i n g i t a n d
seems

j u s t i fy i n g

i t,

what

was

the

P r e s i d e n t ’s

response

to

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n i n p a r t ic u l a r ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o n o t t h i n k h e – h e r e a c t e d t o t h e i s s u e o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t w a s y o u r c o n c l u s i o n i n r e l a ti o n t o

w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u s h o u ld c o n t i n u e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a ft e r t h a t
m e e ti n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I t h i n k h e w a s te l li n g u s th a t th e s e a r e g o o d

p e o p l e a n d th e r e fo r e t h a t m a y b e w e s h o u l d j u s t l e a v e t h e m .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s t h a t y o u r c o n c lu s i o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t w a s m y c o n c l u s io n y e s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d in r e la t i o n t o y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d I
20

a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e t o p th r e e – r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h M i n i s te r C w e le ?
W h a t w a s t h e c o n c lu s i o n t h e r e a s f a r a s t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s
concerned?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th in k I h a d m o r e t h a n o n e m e e ti n g o n t h e is s u e
o f t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip o f t h e – w i t h D o c t o r C w e l e w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t . A n d I
c a n r e c a ll t h i s o n e m e e t in g w h e r e – I th o u g h t – I t h o u g h t h e w a s – h e

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w a s n o t h a p p y w i th u s r a i s i n g t h i s t h in g . A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y y o u th o u g h t h e w a s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e w a s n o t h a p p y w i t h u s r a is i n g t h e m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e Pr e s i d e n t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e Pr e s i d e n t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d t h a t is w h y I s u s p e c t t h a t i t m a y n o t – it m a y
h a v e n o t b e e n t h e fi r s t t i m e w e a r e r a is i n g th e m a t te r w i t h h i m .
B e c a u s e a t t h e e n d o f t h a t m e e ti n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t s a i d , y o u a r e a ll
10

s e n i o r p e o p l e w h y c a n y o u n o t j u s t s i t d o w n a n d r e s o lv e is s u e s ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

L e t u s m o v e o n t h e n b a c k in t o t h e

ti m e li n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr P r e t o r i u s . Yo u d i d s a y w h e n w e w e r e
t a lk in g a b o u t y o u r m e e t in g w i t h Mi n is t e r C w e le t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n
in t o th e G u p t a ’s o r th e S h iv a U r a n i m u m t o t h e G u p t a ’s i n c l u d e d th e
q u e s t io n o f t h e ir i n fl u e n c e o n th e Pr e s id e n t – o n t h e Pr e s id e n t . Th e ir
in fl u e n c e . W a s M i n i s te r C w e l e a w a r e t h a t th a t w a s p a r t o f w h a t y o u
w a n t e d t o i n v e s ti g a te ? W h a t t h e in v e s t i g a ti o n s o u g h t t o d o ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s h e w a s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: He was?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e w a s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t a b o u t th e Pr e s i d e n t w h e n y o u m e t – m e t h i m ?

Wa s h e a w a r e o f t h a t p a r t a s w e ll o r n o t r e a l ly ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e m a d e h i m a w a r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a d e h i m a w a r e ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e d i d m a k e h i m a w a r e …
CHAIRPERSON: That part of what you.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is o u r c o n c e r n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r t o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n is to l o o k a t t h e in f lu e n c e o f
t h e f a m ily o n h i m ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

A n d h is a tt i tu d e w a s th e r e i s n o t h i n g

w r o n g w i t h t h e f a m i ly th e y a r e g o o d p e o p l e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d fi n a ll y y o u r

c o n c l u s i o n a t l e a s t t h e o th e r tw o o f th e t o p th r e e c a n te s t i fy t o t h e i r
c o n c l u s i o n b u t y o u r c o n c lu s i o n w a s t h a t y o u s h o u ld d e s is t w i t h t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t a n d I m u s t m e n ti o n t h a t – t h a t

r e a l ly h a d a n e g a t iv e e ffe c t o n o u r – o n o u r – o n m y m o r a l e s p e c i a lly
and interest in the work.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e q u i te c l e a r t h a t i n t e r m s o f th e N a ti o n a l

S e c u r i ty t h e r e w a s a r is k a n d a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s n e c e s s a r y i n o r d e r
20

t o d e a l w i t h t h a t r is k , t h a t p o t e n ti a l r is k ? I s t h a t r ig h t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d i t w a s n o t t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t w e w o u ld g o o r
in m y e x p e r i e n c e t h a t I w o u l d g o to a P r e s i d e n t a n d s a y, P r e s i d e n t
t h e r e a r e t h e s e t h i n g s t h a t I n t e l li g e n c e is – i s o b s e r v i n g o n t h e s e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
is s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d P r e s id e n t w o u l d s a y, b r in g m e a r e p o r t . G o
in v e s t i g a t e a n d b r i n g m e a r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is – th a t w o u l d b e t h e n o r m a l t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: T h e n o r m a l in t e r a c t io n b e t w e e n I n te ll i g e n c e a n d
the President.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w o u ld a s k f o r a r e p o r t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

H e w o u l d s a y, p le a s e g o a n d d o y o u r w o r k a n d

bring me a report.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O n y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And on other occasions he would read the

r e p o r t a n d s a y i t is fi n e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

On many occasions the President would say

thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja o k a y. B u t o n th is o c c a s io n .
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e Pr e s i d e n t . P r e s id e n t h a d a l o n g e x p la n a t i o n
t o g iv e t o u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

A n d c le a r ly h e w a s n o t i n t e r e s te d i n u s

c o n ti n u i n g w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I a s k e d y o u e a r l i e r o n w h e n w e w e r e d e a l in g

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w i t h t h e m e e t i n g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l v e s a n d th e M i n i s te r w h e t h e r th e
M i n is t e r w a s a d d r e s s i n g h i m s e l f t o th e p e r t i n e n t r e a s o n s w h ic h y o u
g a v e fo r s a y i n g th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s h o u ld c o n ti n u e .

When it comes to

t h e P r e s i d e n t d id h e a d d r e s s h i m s e l f t o th e p e r ti n e n t r e a s o n s y o u
a d v a n c e d f o r s a y in g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s h o u l d c o n t i n u e o r s h o u l d – o r
d i d h e a ls o n o t a d d r e s s t h o s e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e a c k n o w l e d g i n g t h a t – I k n o w t h a t th is – I k n o w
t h a t th is is y o u r j o b b u t t h i s is t h e r e a l s t o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

H e a c k n o w l e d g e d b u t h e – h e d i d n o t s a y, o h

g u y s p l e a s e g o a h e a d a n d c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A n d h e d i d n o t s a y a n y t h i n g lik e y o u a r e w r o n g
o n y o u r a s s e s s m e n t o f t h e s e c u r i ty a s p e c ts t h a t i n fl u e n c e y o u r
d e c is i o n . I t w a s s i m p l y – t h e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h i s f a m i ly.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s s i m p ly t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Th a t t h e r e is n o th in g w r o n g w i t h t h e f a m il y, th e y
are good people.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e d id n o t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e f a c t o f th e m a tt e r i s h o w e v e r a s I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u d i d d e s i s t fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s w e d id C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : If w e m a y g o b a c k to t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e t h a t y o u w e r e e x p l a in i n g e a r l ie r o n a n d I d o

n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I in t e r r u p te d y o u w h a t t h e e ff e c t w a s o f t h is r e a li ty
t h a t y o u w e r e f a c in g t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d t o s to p o n y o u r m o r a l e
a n d e v e r y t h i n g – a n d w h a t e v e r e ls e . H a d y o u f i n is h e d a d d r e s s i n g th a t
o r w a s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g e ls e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o I d i d n o t fi n is h C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d i d y o u v ie w t h is s i t u a t e – t h i s d e v e l o p m e n t ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: C h a ir i t w a s – i t w a s d r a i n i n g o n u s . W e h a d a
d i ff ic u l t s i t u a t i o n o f h a v in g t o r u n a n e w o r g a n is a t i o n – tr y a n d r u n t o a
b e t t e r th i n g t h a n it w a s – t h a t w h a t w e i n h e r i t e d . Tr y a n d g e t p e o p l e t o
d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g s a n d a ll o f t h a t . B u t t h e n – y o u k n o w – e s p e c i a l ly a s
a r e s u l t o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e M i n is t e r – y o u k n o w – I t h i n k y o u
w o u ld f e e l l ik e d r a g g i n g y o u r f e e t w h e n y o u a r e g o i n g t o w o r k a n d I
t h i n k t h e l a s t s t r a w w a s w h e n t h e P r e s id e n t w a s – w a s a ls o a n o t s i d in g
o r a t l e a s t a d d r e s s i n g i s s u e s w i t h u s a n d s a y, g u y s t h e s e a r e t h e t h i n g s
a n d t h is is h o w w e a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i t h t h e m . H e s a y s y o u a r e s e n i o r
p e o p l e , a ll o f y o u , w h y c a n y o u n o t ju s t g o s i t d o w n a n d r e s o lv e .

20

So

t h a t r e a ll y h a d a n e g a tiv e i m p a c t o n u s a n d e s p e c ia ll y my s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d to h a v e b e e n y o u r o p ti o n s

f a c e d w i t h t h i s s i tu a ti o n i f t h e r e w e r e a n y o p ti o n s f o r y o u t o d e a l w i th
t h is s i t u a t io n ?

W a s t h e r e a n o p ti o n o f p u r s u i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n

d e s p i te w h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t s a i d ?

W a s t h a t n o t a n o p t io n ?

w a s t h e p o s i ti o n ?

Page 145 of 185

Or what

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Th e p o s i t io n C h a ir w a s th a t w e w e r e b e i n g

b l o c k e d fr o m d o i n g o u r w o r k a n d – a n d i n d e e d o n e b e i n g n o t s u r e
w h e t h e r to g e t – c o m e b a c k to w o r k o r n o t . I w a s – I w a s o n e o f t h e –
t h e g u y s t h a t – a n d I w a s t h i n k i n g th a t I w a s r e a d i n g t h e s i tu a ti o n w e l l.
I th i n k I w a s r e a d i n g t h e M i n is t e r w e ll t h a t y o u k n o w. W h e n – w h e n a
M i n is t e r s t a r ts b e h a v i n g i n t h is w a y I s u s p e c t th a t o u r w e lc o m e m a y
ju s t b e o v e r h e r e a n d – w e k e p t tr y in g t o g e t th r o u g h t o t h e P r e s i d e n t
a n d I w a s l ik e I d o n o t t h i n k th e Pr e s i d e n t w a n ts t o s e e u s g u y s . A n d
fi n a l ly th e Pr e s i d e n t r e a ll y d id n o t w a n t t o s e e u s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u th e la s t s e n t e n c e y o u s a y a s i f s o m e t h i n g

happened that makes you feel sure that he did not want to see you?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W a r e n o t g e t ti n g a p p o i n t m e n ts C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh you asked for appointments and you were not

g e t t in g th e m .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e a r e n o t g e t ti n g a p p o in t m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

I n h is p o s i t io n a s th e E x e c u tiv e O ffic e r

a c c o u n t a b l e f o r I n t e ll ig e n c e w o u ld y o u e x p e c t to h a v e g e n e r a l a c c e s s
to the former President?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And if he does not meet with you what

d o e s t h a t m e a n f o r t h e w o r k in g r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I t h i n k in g e n e r a l in I n t e ll ig e n c e w h e n t h a t

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
h a p p e n s i t m e a n s t h e r e la t io n s h ip is n o t g o o d o r i t i s n o t t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Were there – were there proper grounds for the

P r e s i d e n t t o s a y, d o n o t c o n t in u e w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a s f a r a s y o u
were concerned?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e r e w e r e n o p r o p e r g r o u n d s C h a ir in s o f a r w e

were concerned.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u h a v e h a d ti m e t o r e fl e c t o n t h e e v e n ts o f

t h a t d a y a n d y o u m a y h a v e t h e b e n e f i t o f h i n d s i g h t. A r e y o u a b le t o s a y
w h a t y o u r a n a ly s is s u g g e s ts w a s w h y t h e P r e s i d e n t s a id c o n t i n u in g t h e
10

in v e s t i g a t io n w a s a b a d i d e a , w a s n o t a g o o d id e a ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C h a ir I h a v e h a d a l o t o f ti m e t o – t o p o n d e r a n d
w o r r y a b o u t t h e s e i s s u e s a n d e s p e c i a lly a b o u t th e P r e s i d e n t .

I have

e v e n t r i e d – e v e n w h e n I w a s o u t t r i e d to m a k e c o n t a c t s o w e c a n m e e t
a n d I g e t to g e t a b e t t e r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t o w h a t – w h a t is g o i n g o n . I
m e a n e v e n w h e n I w a s o u t a n d h e k n e w t h a t I w a s o u t o f t h e s y s te m h e
h a s n e v e r – h e h a s n e v e r g r a n te d m e t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty t o g o a n d – a n d
s i t a n d t a lk t o h i m . O t h e r th a n th a t t h e r e w e r e b e t te r i n fl u e n c e s th a n
u s . I c a n n o t – I c a n n o t c a l l – I c a n n o t m a k e a n y f u r th e r c a ll .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I f y o u h a d b e e n a l l o w e d t o c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n i n c l u d i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n t h e i n f l u e n c e t h a t t h e G u p t a
f a m ily h a d o n h i m a n d a s s u m e d t h a t y o u – t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a d
r e v e a l e d t h a t th e G u p t a f a m il y h a d a v e r y s tr o n g b u t b a d in f lu e n c e o n
h i m w h a t a r e t h e k i n d s o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o f s te p s t h a t c o u l d p o s s i b ly
h a v e b e e n r e c o m m e n d e d b y y o u r s e lf o r t a k e n b y y o u r s e lv e s w h i c h
m i g h t h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e s i t u a t io n ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C h a ir w e – w e d i d l o o k a t t h o s e is s u e s a n d s a i d ,
b u t w h a t e ls e c a n w e d o i f t h e P r e s i d e n t d o e s n o t lis t e n t o u s ? W h e r e
e ls e c a n w e g o ?

I c a n t e l l y o u th a t w e h a v e b e e n t o y o u r s t a n d i n g

c o m m i t t e e o n I n t e ll ig e n c e – J o i n t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e o n In t e l li g e n c e .
M a d e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d s a i d t h e s e a r e t h e is s u e s . B e y o n d t h a t – a n d
o f c o u r s e w e k n e w o f t h e l i m i ta t io n s t h a t t h e y a ls o h a d b e c a u s e t h e y
a r e b a c k b e n c h e r s in t h e m a in . B u t j a – w e c o u ld n o t t h i n k o f a n y th i n g
e ls e b u t a s A m b a s s a d o r S h a i k w a s s a y in g m a y b e t h e – w h i c h is n o t o u r
– w h ic h w e d i d n o t w a n t t o d o is t o w h is t le b l o w a n d w e d i d n o t w a n t t o
10

do that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o y o u h a v e b e e n t o th e s t a n d i n g c o m m i t t e e o n
I n t e lli g e n c e a n d – a n d b r o u g h t i s s u e s t h a t w e r e o f c o n c e r n t o y o u
b e f o r e t h e m t h a t r e la t e d to t h e G u p ta ’s a n d t h e ir i n fl u e n c e o n t h e
P r e s i d e n t , is t h a t r i g h t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t o th e r t h a n th a t y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h a t y o u

m i g h t h a v e d o n e i f y o u h a d c o n ti n u e d w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d fo u n d
t h a t t h e G u p ta f a m i ly h a d a v e r y s tr o n g b u t b a d in f lu e n c e o n t h e
P r e s i d e n t , is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I a m s a y in g s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But you – I guess you would have prepared a

r e p o r t t h a t w o u l d p r o b a b ly h a v e b e e n g i v e n t o t h e Pr e s id e n t h i m s e l f
a n d m a y b e th e s t a n d i n g c o m m i t t e e o n I n te l li g e n c e a s w e ll ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I d o n o t t h i n k w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e to

c o n ti n u e .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I d o n o t th i n k t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e to

c o n ti n u e w i th t h e in v e s ti g a t io n C h a ir b e c a u s e a ll th e w o r k th a t w e d o
w e – w e a r e r e g u la t e d th a t a l l o u r o p e r a t i o n s m u s t b e r e p o r t a b l e
o p e r a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: A n d if t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s in d i c a t e d – d is c o u r a g e d
fr o m c o n ti n u i n g w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e – w e d i d n o t h a v e – w e d i d h a v e a n y – a n y –
a n y g r o u n d t o s ta n d o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e ll l e t u s a s s u m e th e P r e s i d e n t h a d a l l o w e d

y o u to p r o c e e d – t o c o n t in u e th e – w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t i s w h a t I
a m t a lk i n g a b o u t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i f h e h a d – i f h e h a d s a i d , n o t h a t i s fi n e c o n ti n u e
in v e s t i g a t e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d r e v e a l e d th a t th e G u p t a

f a m ily h a d a v e r y s tr o n g in f lu e n c e o f h i m – o n h i m b u t t h a t i n fl u e n c e
w a s f o r h i m a n d f o r t h e c o u n tr y a n d m a y b e f o r th e r u l in g p a r ty. W h a t
w o u ld y o u h a v e d o n e w i th t h a t o u t c o m e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e w o u l d h a v e p r e s e n t e d i t t o t h e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d t o t h e s t a n d i n g c o m m i t t e e m a y b e a s w e ll o n
I n t e lli g e n c e , P a r l ia m e n t a r y C o m m i t t e e o r n o t?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th i n k i t w o u ld d e p e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d h a v e d e p e n d e d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : B u t t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u l d b e o u r u lt i m a t e c l ie n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . H m . O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a i r I s e e it is fo u r o ’ c l o c k . I h a v e a n
i m p o r t a n t m e e ti n g a t 4 : 3 0 I c o u l d p e r h a p s g o to q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r.

I

c o u l d a t te m p t t o p o s tp o n e t h e m e e ti n g to f iv e o ’c l o c k b e c a u s e w e a r e
10

a l m o s t f in is h e d b u t I d o h a v e s o m e w h e r e t o g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m q u i t e h a p p y th a t w e tr y a n d fi n is h fr o m m y s id e .
I f y o u c a n p o s t p o n e th e m e e ti n g ja t h e n D ir e t o r N j e n je w o u l d t h a t b e
fi n e w i th y o u i f w e c o n ti n u e a n d tr y a n d fi n is h ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is f in e . T h a t i s fi n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

O n e t h e m a t t e r s t h a t is o f i n te r e s t

p e r h a p s m o r e th a n i n te r e s t t o th e c o m m i s s io n D ir e c t o r is th e q u e s t io n
o f P a r li a m e n ta r y O v e r s i g h t o v e r v a r i o u s b o d i e s i n o u r b o d y p o li t ic .
W h a t r o l e d o e s t h e J o i n t S t a n d i n g C o m m it t e e o n I n te ll i g e n c e p l a y i n
20

r e s p e c t o f t h e o p e r a t i o n s o f in t e l li g e n c e ? Yo u s a y y o u t o o k th e m a t t e r
t o t h e J o i n t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e . W h a t w a s it s r o l e ? W h a t is i t s r o le ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: M a y b e t h e c a u c u s i n t h e G S C I a r e t h e p e o p le w e
w e n t to s e e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : O h I s e e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : J a .

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A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e c a u c u s i s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r u l in g p a r t y ’s c a u c u s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r u li n g p a r ty ’s c a u c u s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : In P a r li a m e n t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : N o t th e …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o t t h e s ta n d i n g . .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M u l t ip a r ty.
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o t t h e j o i n t – n o t t h e j o i n t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I u n d e r s t a n d a n d t h a t i s th e b o d y t o w h ic h
y o u r e f e r r e d t h is m a t te r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E: T h a t i s t h e b o d y t h a t w e r e f e r r e d t h e m a t t e r t o –
f o r t h e m t o t r y a n d e x e r t t h e ir o w n p r e s s u r e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t n o c h a n g e r e s u l te d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o th in g h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d th a t . I th o u g h t – I t h o u g h t
y o u s a i d y o u t o o k y o u r i s s u e s o f c o n c e r n t o th e S t a n d i n g P a r l i a m e n t a r y
C o m m i t t e e o n I n t e ll ig e n c e . D i d I m is u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?

20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C h a ir, I - I m is s - I m is r e p r e s e n te d t h e - t h e f a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e fa c t i s w e t o o k i t t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h o -

w h o is a m e m b e r o f t h e r u li n g p a r t y - w h o i s t h e C h a ir o f th e J o i n t
S t a n d i n g C o m m i t te e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u t o o k i t to h i m .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : To - t o t h e C h a ir s p e c i fic a lly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t w a s th e i d e a ?

Wa s h e i d e a th a t y o u w e r e

a p p r o a c h i n g h i m a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h a t C o m m i t t e e - t h e S t a n d i n g
C o m m i t t e e s o th a t c o u l d t h e n s e e w h e th e r t o p la c e t h e is s u e s b e f o r e
t h e S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e o r w e r e y o u a p p r o a c h i n g h i m o n t h e b a s is o f
h is o t h e r c a p a c i t y m a y b e w i t h i n - w i t h i n th e r u li n g p a r ty ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

A s C h a ir o f t h e S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e w e a r e

a p p r o a c h i n g h i m to s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a p p r o a c h i n g h i m a s …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A s C h a ir. A s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e S t a n d in g C o m m i t t e e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . To s a y t h a t w e h a v e g o t t h e s e is s u e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d o f c o u r s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I f h e c o u l d t a k e t h e m a n d o u r - o u r i n t e r e s t w a s
m o r e fo r h i m t o r e p r e s e n t u s …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : To M i n is t e r a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h . A t - a t t h a t l e v e l w h a t y o u h a d i n m i n d is
n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e C o m m i t t e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d t a k e i t t o th e C o m m i t t e e …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

But

that

you

could

t a lk

to

th e

M i n i s te r

-

M i n is t e r C w e le a n d t a lk t o th e Pr e s i d e n t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t . Th a t i s c a ll e d …
CHAIRPERSON: And who - yes.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s a - D r B u r g e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Burgess?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

O k a y.

T h a n k y o u , b u t y o u - m a y b e le t u s

fi n a l is e . Yo u p u t t h e s e is s u e s to h i m . D i d h e p r o m is e a n y th in g to d o
a n y th in g a b o u t t h e m o r d i d h e t e l l y o u t h e r e i s n o t h i n g I c a n d o o r w h a t
- what happened?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

N o . N o . H e t o o k - h e t o o k C h a ir - h e to o k t h e

m a t t e r s a n d s a i d h e w a s g o in g to - h e w o u l d s e e h o w t o h a n d le t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d i d h e c o m e b a c k t o y o u t o t e l l y o u h o w fa r h e

h a d b e e n a b l e g o w i t h th e i s s u e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I d o n o t t h i n k s o C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t t h i n k s o ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D ir e c t o r le t u s m o v e o n t h e n t o p a r a g r a p h
2 2 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d g o b a c k t o t h e i s s u e o f th e P r i n c ip le A g e n c y
N e t w o r k I n v e s t ig a ti o n - P r i n c i p l e A g e n ts N e t w o r k I n v e s t i g a t io n .

Page 153 of 185

Yo u

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
s a i d th a t t h a t in v e s ti g a t io n i n v o l v e d Mr A r t h u r F r a s e r. Yo u s p o k e a b o u t
c e r t a i n s u s p e n s i o n s , b u t t h a t in v e s ti g a t i o n I u n d e r s t a n d w a s o n g o in g .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d b y 2 0 11 w h a t p r o g r e s s h a d b e e n

made?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S i g n i fi c a n t p r o j e c t - p r o g r e s s h a d b e e n m a d e . I
think we covered almost everything that had - that needed to be done.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

And as a result of that stage being

r e a c h e d d i d y o u a p p r o a c h L a w E n fo r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d i d y o u d o ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W e a p p r o a c h e d t h e S I U a n d - a n d t h e N PA a n d

w e s a t h a d a c o n s u l ta t io n o v e r t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s h e r e t h a t w e
h a d p r e p a r e d a n d a - th e y w e r e h a p p y to r e c e iv e i t a n d - a n d w e a g r e e d
t h a t w e - w e w e r e t h e n h a n d i n g o v e r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d - a n d t h e y
were going to prepare for prosecution.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n p e r ta i n i n g to y o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n th e n h a n d e d o v e r o r n o t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s h a n d e d o v e r. C o r r e c t.
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : To w h o m ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e S I U .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t w a s t h e s t a te o f p la y a s f a r a s
y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d i n r e g a r d t o w h e th e r a p r o s e c u t io n c o u l d p r o c e e d
or not?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s c l e a r C h a ir t h a t p r o s e c u ti o n w a s - w a s n o w

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
p o s s i b le .
CHAIRPERSON: Was …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r e w e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Was going to proceed?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e y w e r e g o i n g t o p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e y w e r e - t h e y w e r e j u s t g o in g t o f il l u p …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o m e g a p s …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d th e n w e w e r e g o in g to p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u t h e n r e c e iv e a c a ll a t a r o u n d t h i s
ti m e fr o m M i n is te r C w e l e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t - th a t - t h a t w a s t h e PA N

P r o g r a m m e I n v e s t ig a ti o n . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u a b l e to s a y w h a t ty p e s o f c r i m e s t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n h a d r e v e a l e d m a y h a v e b e e n c o m m i t t e d o r a r e y o u n o t
20

a b l e t o - to s a y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r e w e r e v a r io u s - th e r e w e r e v a r io u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr a u d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Fr a u d i n c l u d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . C o r r u p t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d c o r r u p t io n .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e w e r e s o m e o f th e c r i m e s t h a t is …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e u n e a r t h e d b y t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i f y o u c o u l d g i v e th e C h a ir s o m e i d e a
o f t h e g r a v i ty o f t h e o ff e n c e s t h a t h a d b e e n a ll e g e d .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r e w e r e h o u s e s t h a t w e r e b o u g h t - p r o p e r t i e s
a n d b o u g h t w i t h u l t e r i o r m o t iv e s a n d th e p r o p e r ti e s e n d i n g u p w i th
in d i v i d u a ls .

There were people who were employed without any

s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e s .

Hundreds of cars that were bought and parked.

T h e r e w e r e 3 0 0 c a r s . C o m p u te r s , la p t o p s a n d - t h a t w e r e j u s t b o u g h t
a n d s t a c k e d a w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d m a y b e I mi s s e d t h i s e a r l ie r o n .

u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t w a s t h a t PA N P r o g r a m m e a b o u t?

On your

W h a t w a s i ts

o b j e c ti v e ? W h a t w a s s o u g h t t o b e a c h i e v e d t h r o u g h i t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A s I w a s tr y in g t o u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir t h is s tr u c t u r e
20

w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a n e x t e n s i o n o f th e o ff ic i a l s t r u c t u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f I n t e l li g e n c e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O f I n t e ll ig e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

E s p e c i a l ly N a ti o n a l I n te ll ig e n c e A g e n c y.

d o m e s ti c b r a n c h .

Page 156 of 185

The

26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And the cars that you say were - had been bought

w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n - p a r k e d s o m e - w h e r e s o m e w e r e o r w e r e th e y
ju s t g i v e n to p e o p le ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e y w e r e p a r k e d i n a - w a r e h o u s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: They were in warehouses?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r e w e r e d i ff e r e n t - d i ff e r e n t w a r e h o u s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A r o u n d G a u te n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h is w a s - t h e f u n d s u s e d w e r e f r o m t h e

O ff ic i a l I n te ll i g e n c e s tr u c t u r e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

They were - they were

f u n d s t h a t w e r e t a k e n fr o m o p e r a t in g s tr u c t u r e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d - a n d t h e r e f o r e s t a r v in g t h o s e o p e r a t i o n -

o p e r a ti n g s tr u c tu r e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W i th f u n d s …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A n d - a n d s p e n d i n g o u t t h e r e f o r - f o r t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s s ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t h e r e w e r e a n e x c e s s o f
7 0 0 c a r s t h a t w e r e s o b o u g h t. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r e w e r e 3 0 0 .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : 3 0 0 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . Fr o m t h e PA N - fr o m t h e PA N P r o g r a m m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t - a t t h e ti m e o f th e c o n c l u s i o n o f th a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n
w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e r e w e r e a lo t o f p e o p l e w h o w e r e u s i n g
some of those cars?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o t a l o t C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

But there were some people who were using

s o m e o f t h e c a r s a n d - a n d p r o p e r ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d p r o p e r t ie s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r o n I t h i n k t h e fi g u r e o f 3 0 0

c a r s . M r Pr e t o r i u s m e n ti o n e d 7 0 0 c a r s . W h a t k in d o f n u m b e r s d o y o u
recall?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : 3 0 0 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 300?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d i n t e r m s o f h o u s e s a r e y o u a b le t o r e c a ll a n y

n u m b e r o r p r o p e r t ie s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I - I c a n n o t r e c a ll o ff h a n d C h a ir, b u t it w a s q u i t e
a n u m b e r o f p r o p e r t ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s u b s t a n ti a l n u m b e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A s u b s t a n t ia l n u m b e r. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . A r o u n d G a u te n g o r a ll o v e r t h e c o u n tr y ?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A r o u n d G a u te n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : E s p e c i a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d - a n d th e s e - t h e s e w o u ld h a v e b e e n

r e g is t e r e d u n d e r t h e n a m e o f - u n d e r w h o s e n a m e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o m e p e o p le ’s n a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Oh.
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o m e p e o p le w e r e u s e d . O t h e r s a r e c h il d r e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h p e o p le a s o p p o s e d t o le g a l e n t it i e s . S o i t w o u l d
b e in d iv i d u a ls o r n o t p a r t ic u l a r - n o t t h e o ffi c i a l s t r u c t u r e a n d n o t PA N
… ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o t th e o ff ic i a l s tr u c t u r e C h a ir, b e c a u s e w h a t h e
w a s c a l le d th e C o v e t S u p p o r t U n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W h ic h w a s u s e d s o m e - w i th s o m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I n s o m e c a s e s th e y w e r e u s e d .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I n s o m e c a s e s p r i v a t e i n d iv id u a l s w e r e u s e d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. A lr ig h t .

Thank you.

So - so a lot of money

h a d i n to th e b u y i n g o f th o s e c a r s a n d h o u s e s . A r e y o u a b l e t o g i v e a n
e s ti m a t e o f h o w m u c h m o n e y - t a x p a y e r s m o n e y h a d b e e n u s e d …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th is p r o g r a m …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e …
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h e t i m e y o u h a n d e d o v e r t h e f il e s t o t h e N PA t o

prosecute?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e h a d e s t i m a te 6 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S ix …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : R 6 0 0 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 6 0 0 - a b o u t R 6 0 0 m il li o n .
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e e s ti m a t e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e r e w il l b e f u r t h e r e v id e n c e o n t h e

detail Chair …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t t h e p o in t o f th is e v i d e n c e is w h a t is t o
c o m e n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u

-

d id

you

get

a

call

from

M i n is t e r C w e le a t a r o u n d t h i s t i m e - a t t h e ti m e o f th e c o n c l u s i o n o f th e
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Te ll th e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t p l e a s e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I r e c e i v e d a c a ll t h a t - fr o m D r C w e l e t h a t I n e e d

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t o m e e t w i t h h i m a t O l iv e r Ta m b o In t e r n a t i o n a l A ir p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th is a f t e r y o u h a d h a n d e d o v e r t h e f il e s to th e

N PA f o r p r o s e c u t io n o r b e f o r e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: After?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d I w e n t u p - I w e n t u p t o O li v e r Ta m b o a n d

m e t t h e M in is t e r a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t lo u n g e s t h e r e a n d h e t o ld m e t h a t
10

w e n e e d e d t o s t o p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n - t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d p r o s e c u t i o n
o f M r Fr a s e r a n d o th e r s o f t h e PA N - PA N Pr o g r a m m e .

I w a n t e d to

k n o w w h y.
H e s a id n o i t is lik e w e n e e d t o s t o p i t a n d t h is a n d t h a t , b u t I
s a i d M i n i s t e r - I w a s s h o c k e d . I s a id , b u t a ft e r - w e s t a r te d th is t h i n g i n
2 0 0 9 . N o w i t is in 2 0 11 a n d y o u - w e a r e s a y in g a n d w e s p e n t s o m u c h
o f o u r t i m e , o u r e n e r g y a n d - a n d o f c o u r s e y o u r G o v e r n m e n t m o n e y.
J a . N o . W e c a n n o t c o n ti n u e w it h th e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t h e s a i d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t i s w h a t h e s a i d a n d I s a id , b u t y o u n e e d t o
20

t e ll m e w h y y o u c a n n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e s a i d n o . I t is th e P r e s i d e n t . T h e P r e s i d e n t ’s
d e c is i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a i d - h e s a id i t w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s d e c i s i o n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t i s t h e P r e s id e n t ’s d e c is i o n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t it s h o u l d n o t b e c o n ti n u e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t w e s t o p . C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I s a i d , b u t w h y. H e s a i d t h e P r e s i d e n t th in k s t h a t
t h is is g o in g t o c o m p r o m is e N a ti o n a l S e c u r i t y i f w e g o a h e a d a n d
p r o s e c u t e . T h is i s g o in g t o c o m p r o m i s e N a t io n a l S e c u r i t y.

I s a id n o .

M i n is t e r w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h c r i m in a l i ty h e r e n o t N a ti o n a l S e c u r it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. O k a y. O k a y. A lr ig h t . Ye s c o n t i n u e . H e
s a i d t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d s a i d t h a t p u r s u in g t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n w o u l d
10

c o m p r o m is e N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y in r e s p o n s e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I s a i d n o , b u t t h e s e a r e - w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h

s tr a ig h t c r i m in a l i ty. T h e r e i s n o N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty i s s u e h e r e . H e - h e
w a s a d a m a n t th a t i t is t h e P r e s id e n t’s d e c is i o n . I s h o u l d ju s t s e e t o it
t h a t S I U a n d - a n d e v e r y o n e e l s e d o n o t p r o c e e d w i t h - w i th th e ir
a c ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , b u t y o u - y o u s a y b y t h e ti m e h e s p o k e t o y o u .

Yo u h a d h a n d e d o v e r t h e fil e s t o th e N PA ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d i d y o u t e l l h i m i t i s o u t - i t w a s o u t o f y o u r
h a n d s b y th e n o r s o m e t h in g …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o . H e k n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h a t e ffe c t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e k n e w C h a i r m a n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : H e k n e w t h a t y o u h a n d e d th is o v e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

W e b r i e f e d - w e w e r e b r i e fi n g

h i m a b o u t a l l t h e s te p s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Up to the point when we handed over we said.

T h e t h i n g is n o w o u t o f o u r h a n d s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A f t e r a l l h e w a s th e o n e w h o h a d a s k e d y o u t o

in v e s t i g a t e t h is p r o g r a m . Is i t n o t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is tr u e . T h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e r e f o r e w e l l q u i t e a p a r t fr o m t h e fa c t t h a t h e

h a d m a d e i t - h e h a d a s k e d y o u t o i n v e s t ig a t e it .

Yo u k e p t h i m

in f o r m e d t h r o u g h o u t t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w fa r t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s g o i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u t o l d h i m y o u w e r e a b o u t t o h a n d o v e r to t h e
N PA a n d d i d y o u - a n d t h e n y o u h a n d e d o v e r a n d …
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n h e c a m e a n d s a id s t o p ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o d i d y o u t h i n k t h a t th e d e c i s i o n t h a t i t m u s t d i d y o u th i n k t h a t w h a t h e t o l d y o u n a m e ly t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a d m a d e
t h e d e c is io n t h a t t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n m u s t n o t c o n ti n u e . M u s t h a v e b e e n
r ig h t , b e c a u s e a ll a l o n g h e w a n t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t o h a p p e n h i m s e l f ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is w h a t y o u - y o u th o u g h t ?

T h a t is w h a t y o u

t h o u g h t t h a t h e m u s t h a v e b e e n r ig h t t h a t i t w a s s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o
m a d e th e d e c is i o n .

Not him, because along he wanted you to

in v e s t i g a t e ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D id

you

then

report

back

to

your

in v e s t i g a t o r s h o w h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th i s in v e s t i g a t io n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . I d i d . I - I w e n t b a c k to t h e te a m . I c a l le d
10

t h e m in a n d I t o l d t h e m th a t f e l l o w s w e h a v e a n i n s tr u c t io n to c e a s e
t h is - a n d - a n d c a l l th is t h i n g o ff . W e h a v e g o t t o g o a n d - a n d i n fo r m
w h o e v e r o u r - o u r p a r t n e r s a r e a t S I U a n d - a n d N PA . T h a t w e h a v e a n
in s t r u c t i o n .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s t h i s a n e a s y ta s k ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C e r t a in ly n o t .

It was not an easy task.

Chair

p e o p l e h a d w o r k e d f o r m o n t h s . L o n g h o u r s . P a i n s t a k in g l y a n d a t t i m e s
t h e r e w a s e v e n r i s k to t h e ir liv e s w h e n th e y w e r e b u s y p e r fo r m i n g .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

In

paragraph

24

of

your

s ta t e m e n t

D ir e c t o r y o u t a lk o f a n In t e l li g e n c e O p e r a t io n in v o lv in g r e l a ti o n s
20

b e t w e e n Pr e to r i a a n d K ig a li a n d t h e C a r i b b e a n ’s . It i s n o t n e c e s s a r y t o
g o i n t o t h e d e t a ils t h e r e , b u t a t a s ta g e w e r e y o u s u m m o n s e d t o C a p e
To w n t o r e p o r t o n t h i s m a t t e r o r m a t te r s r e l a te d to t h is ?
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e j u s t f i n is h o n th e o t h e r o n e Mr P r e t o r iu s

b e f o r e w e m o v e o n to th a t o n e . S o , b u t d i d y o u n o t te ll Mi n is t e r C w e l e
in r e g a r d t o th e PA N Pr o g r a m m e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t w e ll M i n is t e r m a y b e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
if y o u h a d to ld m e b e fo r e w e h a n d e d t h e fi le s o v e r t o th e N PA I w o u ld
s t o p - w o u l d s to p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n , b u t i t i s w i t h th e N PA n o w.
T h e f il e s a r e w i th t h e N PA t h e d o c k e t s .

O n ly t h e N PA c a n

d e c i d e w h e t h e r t o p r o s e c u t o r o r n o t t o p r o s e c u te .

W e a r e d o n e w i th

t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n . W e h a v e h a n d e d o v e r e v e r y t h i n g . T h e r e is n o t h i n g
we can do. Did you not tell them?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : M a y b e I d i d n o t u s e t h e s a m e w o r d s C h a ir, b u t I I s a i d th a t s o m u c h h a s g o n e i n to t h i s h e r e a n d - a n d w e h a v e
s u b m i tt e d .
10

I t is n o w w i th th e N PA .

H e s a i d w e l l i t is t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s

in s t r u c t i o n . I t i s n o t m y i n s tr u c t io n . I t i s t h e P r e s i d e n t w h o s a y s t h a t
t h is is g o in g to c a u s e p r o b le m s fo r N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty if t h i s g o e s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t I a m l o o k i n g a t is w h e th e r y o u r a n s w e r

should not been.

I h a v e n o p o w e r t o t e l l th e N PA n o t t o p r o s e c u t e if

t h e y b e li e v e t h a t t h e m a t e r i a l w e h a v e h a n d e d o v e r t o t h e m i s e n o u g h
for them to prosecute.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I a m n o t s u r e w h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o s a y C h a ir. I f
h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o s a y y o u g a v e t h o s e p e o p le th e d o c u m e n ts . G o g e t
them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , b u t I a m j u s t th i n k i n g y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to - y o u
20

a r e n o t g o i n g t o a g r e e t o d o s o m e th in g . Yo u h a v e g o t n o p o w e r to d o .
Is i t n o t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a ll y o u w o u ld b e te l li n g h i m is t h e r e a l it y o r th e

f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e p o w e r o n t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n w h il e th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n is
n o t c o m p le t e .

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D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : R i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n c e y o u h a v e h a n d e d o v e r t h e - th e f il e s it is u p t o
t h e N PA t o d e c i d e o r a m I m i s ta k e n o n - o n y o u r p o w e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W e ll C h a ir a s I s a y I - I h a d th e s e a d v o c a t e s a s
w e ll a d v is i n g m e th o s e i n v e s ti g a to r s . W h e n I t o l d th e m t h a t th is is th e
s i tu a ti o n a n d t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t h a s d e c i d e d t h a t w e c a ll t h i s t h i n g o ff .
E v e r y o n e w a s g o b s m a c k e d , b u t t h e y w e n t o u t a n d - a n d g o t th e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n b a c k fr o m t h e N PA a n d t h e y b r o u g h t i t b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e N PA t h e n d i d n o t p r o s e c u t e ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o p r o s e c u ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e y t o o w e r e t o l d t h a t i t is b e c a u s e t h e

P r e s i d e n t h a s d e c id e d t h a t t h e r e s h o u ld b e n o f u r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r
p r o s e c u t i o n in t h is m a t t e r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I - I t o l d m y t e a m . I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e y s a i d
w h e n th e y w e n t to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : To i n te r a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is w h a t y o u t o l d y o u r te a m ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I to l d t h e m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w e r e n o t th e o n e w h o w o u ld i n t e r a c t w i t h t h e
N PA .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s s o m e b o d y w i t h i n y o u r t e a m ?

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D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t w a s s o m e b o d y i n t h e t e a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, b u t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u ld b e t h a t h e

p r o b a b ly w o u l d h a v e r e l a y e d w h a t y o u r e l a y e d t o h i m a n d o t h e r s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e ll m a y b e I s h o u ld j u s t s a y i t w o u ld b e g o o d i f w e

w e r e t o g e t t h e c a s e n u m b e r s a n d w h a t e v e r r e l a ti n g t o t h is p a r tic u la r …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . W e w i ll d e a l w it h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a t te r. J a .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u d i d s a y th a t th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w a s

h a n d l e d - h a n d e d t o th e S I U ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t . I d i d s a y C h a ir.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t o - y o u s a i d to w h o m w a s t h e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n h a n d e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : To t h e S I U .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : To t h e S I U ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e N PA o r o n ly t h e S I U ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e S I U …
CHAIRPERSON: The SIU.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e S I U w a s g o i n g t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Being part of …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Because Chair at that time they were looking at

seizures.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : It is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o in t o th e d e t a i l o f
o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n t o t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h K ig a li - b e t w e e n P r e t o r ia
and the Caribbean.

Those issues, but as I understand it you were

s u m m o n e d t o C a p e To w n b y th e M in is t e r t o r e p o r t o n r e l a t e d m a t te r s i n
10

a m e e t in g w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d t h a t m e e t in g e v e r h a p p e n ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d i d y o u c o n c lu d e fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t
y o u w e r e s u m m o n e d to r e p o r t o n a m a t te r, b u t t h e m e e t i n g n e v e r
happened?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : I th o u g h t - I j u s t n e e d t o r e fr e s h m y m e m o r y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : S u r e . W e ll it i s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : 2 4 .

20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M id d le o f t h e p a g e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s .

W h e n w e - w h e n th e m e e t in g w i th t h e

P r e s i d e n t w a s n o t m a t e r i a lis i n g .

I s a i d t o t h e M in is t e r th a t m a y b e I

s h o u l d - I s h o u l d r e tu r n t o P r e t o r ia , b e c a u s e I h a d s t a y e d t h e r e f o r
a b o u t tw o d a y s a n d I w a s - I w a s t h e - th e D G fo r d o m e s t ic b r a n c h . I
h a v e g o t w o r k to d o . H e th e n t o l d m e h e r e i n a m e e ti n g - w e a r e s i t ti n g

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
there. He says that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r m ic .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

S o r r y. H e t o l d m e t h a t h e h a d r e c o m m e n d e d t o

t h e P r e s id e n t th a t h e a p p o i n ts m e a s A m b a s s a d o r f o r S o u t h A fr ic a in
R w a n d a . I - I r e s p o n d e d t o - t o t h e M in is t e r. I s a i d t o th e M i n is t e r th a t
- t h a t I n e v e r c a m e h e r e t o b e c o m e a - t o b e - to b e t o ld th a t I s h o u l d
b e a n A m b a s s a d o r.
I s a i d I c a m e h e r e , b e c a u s e I - I w a s a s k e d t o - to c o m e i n
h e r e a n d n o w y o u a r e t e l li n g m e th a t y o u - y o u h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d . I 10

I c a n n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h a t a n d t h e n I l e f t . I - I r e t u r n e d t o P r e to r i a a f t e r
t h a t s h o r t m e e t in g .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : W e r e y o u t h e n c a ll e d to t h e O ff ic e o f t h e
M i n is t e r a f e w d a y s l a te r ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th a t m e e t i n g ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A t t h e m e e t in g t h e M i n i s te r a s k e d i f I h a d

c o n s i d e r e d h is - h is r e c o m m e n d - t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t h e w a s
g o i n g t o m a k e t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t . B y t h a t t i m e I h a d a lr e a d y p r e p a r e d m y
r e s ig n a ti o n le t t e r w h e n I w e n t t o s e e h i m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : R o u n d a b o u t w h e n w a s t h is ? 2 0 1 2 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h is i s a b o u t S e p te m b e r o r s o i n 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : S o - t h i s w a s in N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 . I t o l d h i m t h a t

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
he

is

no

M in is t e r

of

Foreign

A ff a i r s

and

in

any

event

th o s e

a p p o i n t m e n ts a r e P r e s i d e n t ia l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p p o i n t m e n ts ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A p p o i n t m e n ts . It is n o t - i t is n o t h is - i t is n o t
h is jo b .

H is jo b i s I n t e ll i g e n c e .

H e s h o u l d b e fo c u s e d o n b u il d in g

I n t e lli g e n c e . I - I g a v e h i m t h e - th e r e s ig n a t io n le t t e r t o s a y t h a t I h a d
not come here to ask for a job.

He - he approached me.

a p p r o a c h m e t o b e c o m e a n A m b a s s a d o r.

D id n o t

Approached me to become

H e a d o f I n t e ll ig e n c e f o r d o m e s ti c b r a n c h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll b e f o r e M r Pr e to r i u s m o v e s o n . I j u s t d o n o t w a n t
t o f o r g e t t h i s p a r t. I a m t a k in g y o u b a c k t o w h a t t h e M i n i s te r to l d y o u I
t h i n k y o u s a i d a t th e a i r p o r t a b o u t t h e PA N P r o g r a m m e I n v e s ti g a t i o n .
H e s a i d i t w a s t h e Pr e s id e n t d e c is io n t h a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n s h o u l d n o t
b e p u r s u e d , b e c a u s e s o m e t h in g a l o n g t h e l i n e s th a t i t w a s a th r e a t to
N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty o r b e c a u s e o f N a t io n a l S e c u r i t y. Is t h a t r ig h t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is w h a t h e s a i d . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w d i d h e d is c lo s e t o y o u a n y d e t a ils o n N a t io n a l

S e c u r i ty b e a r i n g in m i n d t h a t fr o m y o u r v e r y p o s i ti o n a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t .
Yo u d e a l w i t h is s u e s o f N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty a n d I t h e r e f o r e I w o u l d e x p e c t
20

t h a t h e c o u l d fe e l fr e e to t e l l y o u w h a t th a t w a s a b o u t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e d i d n o t a n d I th i n k h e c o u l d n o t , b e c a u s e h e
k n e w t h a t I w o u ld k n o w w h a t is N a t io n a l S e c u r i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : A c t u a l ly t h e v e r y b r e a c h i ts e l f t h a t w e - w e w e r e
in …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : W a s - w a s N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty c o m p r o m is e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d t h e p e o p le j u s t s p e n t m o n e y a s th e y w e r e

doing.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o in y o u r j o b i n I n t e l li g e n c e y o u d e a l t w i t h

is s u e s o f N a t i o n a l S e c u r i ty. If t h e r e w a s a n y th in g i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n
t h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g w h ic h c o u l d p o s e a t h r e a t to N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty.
Yo u w o u ld h a v e p i c k e d i t u p o r y o u r t e a m w o u ld h a v e p ic k e d i t u p ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o y o u - y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y a s fa r a s y o u a r e
c o n c e r n e d i t is h i g h ly u n lik e ly t h a t t h e r e w a s a n y i s s u e o f N a t i o n a l
S e c u r i ty t h a t w a s r a is e d b y th e in v e s ti g a ti o n o r a r e y o u n o t a b le t o
s a y ? O k a y. L e t m e r e p h r a s e th a t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Th e r e w a s - t h e r e w a s n o - th e r e w a s n o is s u e o f
N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h e r e w a s n o s u c h c o n s i d e r a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i s t h e r e - is t h e r e n o p o s s i b ili t y t h a t t h e

P r e s i d e n t b e i n g P r e s id e n t h e m i g h t k n o w th a t t h e r e s o m e N a ti o n a l
S e c u r i ty i s s u e s t h a t e v e n t h e I n t e l li g e n c e w i ll n o t k n o w a b o u t ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e is a d v i s e d b y u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : O n N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty i s s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Th e P r e s i d e n t g e ts - g e ts h i s a d v i c e fr o m u s . W e
a r e - w e a r e h i s e x p e r ts o n N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e t h e o n e s w h o l o o k w h a t is t h r e a t e n i n g

N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty a n d th e n y o u a d v i s e h i m ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e r e y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y th e r e w a s n o is s u e o f
N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty ?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : N o n e w h a ts o e v e r C h a ir. M a y b e I - I c a n j u s t a d d
h e r e t o s a y t h a t a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s th e r e a ft e r Mr Fr a s e r w a s r e a p p o i n t was appointed now the DG of SSA as - by President Zuma.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h o w a s a p p o i n te d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : M r Ar t h u r F r a s e r t h e o n e th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : H e w a s a p p o i n t e d s o m e t h r e e y e a r s la t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : Ye s . By - b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d - o k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .

20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Tw o m a t t e r s C h a ir a n d v e r y c l o s e t o t h e

li n e , b u t i f I m a y d e a l w i th t h e m b e f o r e w e a d j o u r n . I n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 y o u
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll - w e l l w e s a id 5 o ’ c lo c k . W e a r e h a lf p a s t fo u r
or has something changed?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : N o . I h o p e t h a t in t h e n e x t 2 0 m in u t e s …

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. N o . T h a t is f in e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . O t h e r w i s e I a m … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I - I w a s th i n k i n g m a y b e w e a r e n o t o n t h e s a m e
page.

I w a s t h i n k in g m a y b e y o u a r e th i n k i n g a b o u t fi n i s h i n g a t h a l f

p a s t f o u r.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . S o w h a t I a m s a y in g i s . I h o p e th a t
in t h e n e x t 2 0 m in u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I c a n fi n i s h t h e n e x t t w o i s s u e s …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d I w il l tr y m y b e s t C h a ir. In p a r a g r a p h
2 6 y o u r e l a t e a n i n c id e n t t h a t o c c u r r e d i n 2 0 11 w h i c h in c i d e n t b e g a n a t
t h e C a b in e t L e k g o tl a . W h a t h a p p e n e d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E : B e f o r e l u n c h a t C a b in e t L e k g o t l a w h i c h w a s h e ld
a t B r y n tir io n Es t a t e , A d v o c a te N o g x i n a w a lk e d u p t o m e , o r w e w e r e
w a lk in g o u t t o g e t h e r t o – f o r l u n c h .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

T h a t i s N - o - g - x - i- n - a ?

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . H e t o l d m e t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r, h is

M i n is t e r, M is s , M i n i s t e r S h a b a n g u , S u s a n S h a b a n g u , w a s g o i n g t o m e e t
20

w i t h t h e G u p t a ’s a n d b o th w e r e f e e li n g u n c o m f o r t a b l e b u t th e y w e r e
g o i n g to m e e t A j a y G u p t a a n d th e y w e r e g o i n g t o m e e t h i m a t th e
S h e r a to n H o t e l, w h ic h i s n o t f a r fr o m w h e r e w e w e r e .

H e a s k e d if I

w o u ld w a n t t o j o i n , I s a i d I h a v e g o t n o p r o b le m , h e s a id b e c a u s e w e
w a n t y o u t o k in d o f c o m e a n d b l o c k u s , t o b l o c k t h e s e g u y s o ff u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h a t .

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D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I s a id h e a s k e d m e t o a c c o m p a n y, h e a s k e d i f I

h a d a p r o b l e m t o a c c o m p a n y h i m a n d h e r a n d h is M i n is t e r s o t h a t I
c o u l d p r o v i d e s o m e s e c u r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e m e e ti n g w i th A ja y G u p t a ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A ja y G u p t a c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a t th e S h e r a t o n H o t e l ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A t th e S h e r a to n H o t e l .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, and what was your response?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

I s a i d I h a v e g o t n o is s u e , i f y o u r M i n is t e r

a g r e e s I w i ll c o m e a l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d id y o u s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t w h a t M r N o g x i n a

s a i d , w h a t r o l e y o u w o u ld p l a y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

Ye s t h e y h a d b e e n u n d e r s o m e p r e s s u r e , h i m

a n d t h e M i n is t e r fr o m t h e G u p ta ’s , a n d h e w a n t e d m e t o c o m e i n s o t h a t
I c o u l d m i n i mi s e t h a t b u l ly i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:
r ig h t .

O h , s o o t h e r p e o p l e w e r e u n d e r p r e s s u r e a g a in , j a ,

So you agreed you said if the Minister agrees?

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:
them.
20

I s a i d i f h i s M i n i s t e r a g r e e s I w il l a c c o m p a n y

S o a f te r w e – a f t e r e a ti n g w e s a w t h e M i n i s t e r w a lk , t h e

M i n is t e r a g r e e d , w h e n w e w e r e d is h i n g u p w e s p o k e t o h e r, s h e s a i d
n o , n o , s h e is h a p p y t h a t I m u s t c o m e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o r r y ju s t b e f o r e y o u g o o n D ir e c t o r I

d o n ’t k n o w, I m i g h t h a v e mi s s e d i t , b u t d id Mr N o g x in a t e ll y o u w h a t t h e
concerns of Minister Shabangu were?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s h e s a id s o m e t h i n g li k e t h e s e g u y s a r e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
p r e s s u r in g , t h e y a r e p u s h in g , t h e y a r e p u s h i n g f o r s o m e th in g , I t h i n k i t
w a s s o m e r i g h ts th a t t h e y w a n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e r i g h ts ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

M i n e r a l r i g h ts .

C H A I R P E R S O N : M in e r a l r i g h ts ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

C o r r e c t s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, r i g h t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

These guys being?

T h is A j a y G u p ta .

Ye s , o k a y.

So you then – oh you were saying you

s a w t h e M in is t e r .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W e s a w th e M i n is t e r t a l k h e r e , w h is p e r i n g

s o m e t h i n g i n t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s e a r, h e w a s s ti ll s i tt i n g a t t h e t a b l e a n d h e
s p o k e f o r a s h o r t w h i le a n d s h e c a m e o v e r, a n d w h e n s h e c a m e o v e r
s h e s a i d y o u g u y s d o n ’ t k n o w, w e a r e n o t m e e ti n g a t S h e r a t o n , s o
N o g x i n a a s k e d s o w h e r e a r e w e m e e t in g , o h w e a r e m e e ti n g a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t ’s p l a c e a t M a h la m b a N d l o p f u , t h e P r e s i d e n t k n o w s t h a t g u y is
w a i ti n g f o r u s , A j a y G u p ta is w a i ti n g f o r h e r t h e r e a t M a h la m b a N d l o p f u .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, hmm. So she said the meeting was going to take
20

p l a c e a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ffi c i a l r e s id e n c e , M a h l a m b a N d lo p f u ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Th a t i s w h a t th e P r e s i d e n t t o ld h e r.

When she

w e n t t o i n f o r m t h e P r e s i d e n t t h a t s h e h a s g o t a m e e ti n g , s h e w a s
r e q u e s t in g f o r l e a v e t o a tt e n d a m e e ti n g t h e Pr e s i d e n t s a i d I k n o w
a b o u t t h e m e e t i n g a n d t h e n h e f u r t h e r t o l d h e r t h a t a c tu a lly th e m e e t in g
is M a h l a m b a N d l o p fu .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o s h e h e a r d fr o m t h e Pr e s id e n t t h a t th e v e n u e i s
M a h l a m b a N d lo p f u .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t t h e S h e r a to n H o t e l ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o s h e w a s t e l li n g , t h e M i n is t e r w a s t e l li n g y o u
and Mr Nogxina.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

S o w e w a lk e d , t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r u s t o g e t a

c a r n o w to S h e r a t o n , w e w a l k e d t o M a h la m b a N d l o p f u w h i c h is j u s t
a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W h e n w e g o t th e r e t h e d o o r w a s o p e n e d a n d

h e r e c a m e A j a y h e r e i n th e p a s s a g e to . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w e r e r e c e iv e d b y M r A j a y G u p t a ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e o ff ic ia l r e s i d e n c e o f t h e P r e s id e n t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

CHAIRPERSON: Hmm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d h e l e d u s t o th e Pr e s i d e n t ’s s t u d y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s t u d y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

CHAIRPERSON: Hmm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A n d t h a t is w h e r e th e m e e t in g w a s h e l d .

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A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

B e f o r e w e g o o n w a s th e r e a n y

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f th e Pr e s id e n t t h a t u s h e r e d y o u in t o t h e s tu d y w h o
u s h e r e d y o u i n t o th e s t u d y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

It was Mr Ajay Gupta.

Wa s h e w i t h a n y b o d y – w a s h e i n th e c o m p a n y o f

a n y b o d y a s h e r e c e iv e d y o u a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic i a l r e s id e n c e a n d
t o o k y o u to t h e s tu d y o r w a s h e a ll b y h i m s e l f ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

T h e p e r s o n w h o o p e n e d th e d o o r is t h e

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s M r A j a y G u p ta ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

N o i t is t h e b u t l e r, i t is s o m e b o d y w h o is s t a y i n g

a t t h e P r e s id e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, y e s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

A ja y c a m e a n d f e tc h e d u s t o t h e s tu d y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e r e w a s n o b o d y e ls e in t h e s tu d y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o b o d y e ls e .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s ?
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e m e e t in g i n th e

study?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

T h e m e e ti n g s t a r t e d a n d A j a y s t a r te d t o m a k e

t h e s e d e m a n d s th a t Mi n is te r I h a v e b e e n w a it i n g o n th e s e th i n g s a n d
y o u k n o w – a n d h e w a s c h a n g i n g h is v o i c e w a s lik e t a l k i n g – ta lk in g
d o w n o n t h e M in is t e r, th is is w h a t I s a i d I n e e d a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
t h i n g s a r e t a k i n g s o l o n g f o r y o u g u y s t o d o t h is . S o I f e l t li k e n o m a n
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s t h e s e a t in g a r r a n g e m e n t i n – th is w a s th e

P r e s i d e n t ’s s t u d y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u s i t ti n g o n c o u c h e s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

W e s a t o n t h e c o u c h e s , a t le a s e n o o n e s a t o n

t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s c h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm?
10

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I s a y C h a ir a t l e a s t n o o n e s a t o n th e

P r e s i d e n t ’s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o o n e s a t o n th e P r e s i d e n t ’s C h a ir ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

No we sat on the couches.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . O k a y s o h e s t a r t e d s p e a k in g a n d y o u s a y
h e w a s s p e a k i n g d o w n o n t h e M i n i s te r
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

H e w a s , h e w a s a n d I i n t e r je c te d I s a id A j a y

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e s u b je c t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n ,
w a s i t th e m in e r a l r i g h t s , w h a t m i n e r a l r i g h ts w e r e it a n d s o o n ?
20

D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I d id n o t f o ll o w t h e s u b j e c t o f d is c u s s i o n C h a ir I

w a s ju s t w a t c h i n g w h a t w a s g o i n g t o g o o n a n d o f c o u r s e w h e n h e w a s
t a lk in g d o w n o n t h e M i n is te r I in t e r je c t e d I s a id A j a y th is is a
g o v e r n m e n t m i n is te r, s h e r e p r e s e n ts t h e p e o p le o f S o u t h A f r i c a , I th i n k
you should have a way of addressing yourself.

H e s a id s o r r y s ir, s o r r y

s ir, b u t h e t h e n c o n ti n u e d t o n a g a n d n a g a n d n a g a n d N o g x i n a s a i d w e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
h a v e g o t t o r u s h b a c k t o th e L e g o t l a w e w il l g e t b a c k t o y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: So the meeting did not last long?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I t d id n o t l a s t l o n g C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s e o f t h e M in is t e r a n d /o r Mr
N o g x i n a t o w h a te v e r h e h a d t o s a y ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

N o g x i n a s a id t h e r e a r e p r o c e s s e s a n d M i n is t e r

c a n n o t t a k e s h o r t c u t s a n d M in is t e r s a i d w e w i ll g e t b a c k to y o u w h e n
w e h a v e d o n e o u r w o r k p r o p e r ly.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t h e w a s s a y i n g h e d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y

w h a t e v e r h e w a n t e d w a s ta k i n g l o n g .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

H e f e l t lik e t h i n g s w e r e ta k i n g l o n g a n d h e

w a n t e d t h e m t o b e d o n e i m m e d i a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o b u t i t l o o k s l ik e M r N o g x i n a k n e w t h a t y o u w o u l d

b e n e e d e d a t th a t m e e t in g . Ye s M r P r e t o r i u s ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

In s u m m a r y i t a p p e a r s t h a t i n th e

P r e s i d e n t ’s s t u d y a n d w it h t h e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a c c o r d i n g to
o u r e v id e n c e , a t l e a s t w i th th e k n o w l e d g e o f th e Pr e s id e n t t h a t y o u
20

w e r e a t h is r e s id e n c e M r G u p t a w a s d e m a n d i n g c e r t a i n c o n c e s s i o n s a t
le a s t fr o m M i n is t e r S h a b a n g u ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : R e la t in g to m i n e r a l r i g h t s .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

Hmm.

D i d y o u g e t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h e m e e ti n g

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
w a s h e l d a t th e Pr e s id e n t’s r e s i d e n c e w h e n t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s n o t t h e r e
a n d w e l l I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g s p e c i a l a b o u t
h o l d i n g i t i n t h e s tu d y a s w e l l .

I’m sure the President has got some

m e e ti n g r o o m s a n d s o o n .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I t h in k C h a ir i t w a s a m a n n e r o f s h o w i n g h o w

p o w e r f u l th e y a r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hmm, hmm.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

S h o w i n g t o a M in i s t e r o f G o v e r n m e n t t h a t s h e

c a n b e c a ll e d to th e Pr e s id e n t’s s t u d y w i t h o u t , in th e a b s e n c e o f t h e
10

President.
CHAIRPERSON: Hmm, hmm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e s h o u l d ju s t p l a c e

o n r e c o r d th a t th e p l a n n e d i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s l a t e r r e s u s c it a t e d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u w e r e i n v o lv e d t o a n e x t e n t i n

that?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
the
20

moment

because

that

Ye s , I d o n ’ t w a n t to g o i n to a n y d e t a i l a t
must

be

the

subject

matter

of

a

s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e i t i m p li c a t e s o t h e r s t o w h o m n o t ic e s
h a v e n o t b e e n is s u e d , b u t I t a k e i t y o u w i ll a s s is t u s i n th e f u t u r e if
n e c e s s a r y.
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

O n e m o r e to p ic p l e a s e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON: Well what I can ask is when was it resuscitated?

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

In 2018.

C H A I R P E R S O N : In 2 0 1 8 ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : M i d y e a r, t o w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e y e a r, a r e y o u a b l e to
say?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I t w a s – i t s t a r t e d I t h i n k m i d - y e a r, a c t u a l ly i t

w a s a ls o p a r t o f th e h i g h l e v e l p a n e l r e v ie w, h ig h le v e l r e v i e w p a n e l
t h a t w a s l e d b y D r M o fa m a t e , b u t S t a t e S e c u r i ty a ls o d i d a – t h e y
r e s u s c i t a t e d t h a t w h i c h w a s c lo s e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

J u s t b r i e f ly M r N j e n j e c a n w e d e a l w i t h

a n o t h e r t o p ic , f r o m 1 9 7 9 t o 1 9 9 4 y o u s a y t h a t y o u w o r k e d fo r t h e A N C
I n t e lli g e n c e O p e r a ti o n .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Information relevant to the work of

I n t e lli g e n c e i n t h e A N C in y o u r c a p a c i ty a s a n o p e r a tiv e w o u l d th a t
have come to your knowledge?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

P l e a s e r e p e a t th e q u e s ti o n .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

I n fo r m a ti o n r e l a ti n g t o t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f

t h e A N C w o u l d y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d k n o w le d g e o f th a t? I n y o u r c a p a c it y
a s a n o p e r a ti v e d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Ye s e s p e c ia ll y C h a ir w h e n I b e c a m e t h e D e p u ty

o f D r S iz a k e l e S i g la s h e w h o w a s t h e H e a d o f I n fo r m a ti o n a n d
Processing of the ANC.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n fo r m a t i o n r e g a r d in g t h r e a ts t o th e A N C

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I n t e lli g e n c e O p e r a ti o n a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r i n f il tr a t o r s o r e n e m y a g e n t s f o r
want of a better phrase would that have been within your scope of
knowledge?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

K n o w le d g e o f th e s e t h r e a t s b o t h t o

p e r s o n n e l i n t h e A N C , a s a r e s u l t o f i n fi l tr a t i o n , a n d k n o w l e d g e o f
in fi l tr a to r s a n d i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t i n f il tr a t o r s w o u l d t h a t k n o w le d g e h a v e
b e e n c o n f in e d t o t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

No.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d y o u e v e r c o m e t o le a r n o f a p l o t o r

c o n s p ir a c y b y th r e e in t e l li g e n c e a g e n c i e s , in c l u d i n g a S o u t h A fr i c a n
o n e , a n d th is i s p r i o r t o 1 9 9 5 , t h a t t a r g e t e d t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

No.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

H a d s u c h a o p e r a ti o n a l p l o t e x is te d

w o u ld y o u in t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r d u ti e s h a v e e x p e c te d t o c o m e to le a r n
o f i t?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

I th in k s o y e s .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e f o r m e r

P r e s i d e n t a t t h e ti m e p e r s o n n e l r e t u r n e d fr o m e x i le a n d t o o k u p
20

a c ti v i ti e s i n S o u t h A fr ic a w h a t w a s o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h th e fo r m e r
President?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E:

I t w a s a g o o d r e l a ti o n s h i p C h a ir, I s t a r te d t o

k n o w t h e P r e s i d e n t c lo s e ly fr o m a b o u t 1 9 8 0 , a n d in 1 9 9 0 w h e n t h e A N C
d e c i d e d o n a t e a m t o c o m e a n d c h e c k i f t h e r e w a s g o o d c h a n c e s fo r a
n e g o ti a te d s e tt l e m e n t I w a s p a r t o f th e th r e e t h a t th e A N C s e n t t o t h e

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
c o u n tr y, w e w e r e l e d b y J a c o b Z u m a a n d th e t w o a c c e s s o r i e s w a s
myself and Penno Maduna.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

D id y o u r w o r k , I th i n k y o u m e n t i o n e d i t ,

in v o lv e t h e p r o v is i o n o f s e c u r i t y t o th e A N C l e a d e r s h i p , i n c l u d i n g
former President Zuma?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

K n o w l e d g e o f a n y th r e a ts t o th e

le a d e r s h i p w a s t h a t e s s e n ti a l t o y o u r w o r k ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :
10

It was.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

H a d P r e s id e n t Z u m a r e c e iv e d in f o r m a t io n

a b o u t t h r e a t s w h a t w a s h i s d u ty i n r e l a ti o n to y o u a n d y o u r t a s k s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

He would have had to inform us that there was a

t h r e a t to h i s li f e a n d w e w o u ld t h e n t a k e c o u n t e r m e a s u r e s t o a s s is t .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

D id h e e v e r in f o r m y o u o f t h a t ?

N o , n o t t h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r.

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I s t h e r e a n y r e a s o n a t th e t i m e t h a t h e

w o u ld n o t h a v e t o ld y o u o f a n y t h r e a t s ?
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h e r e is n o r e a s o n .

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h a t is a l l.

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h D ir e c to r N j e n j e w e a p p r e c i a t e

t h e fa c t th a t y o u c a m e t o g iv e e v id e n c e t o s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w w i t h
t h e C o m m is s i o n , w e a p p r e c i a te i t v e r y m u c h .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A s I s a i d i n r e g a r d t o – a s I s a i d t o M r S h a ik I h o p e
t h a t y o u r d e c i s i o n t o c o m e fo r w a r d t o h e l p t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d s h a r e

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w h a t y o u k n o w w i t h t h e N a t io n w il l in s p i r e o t h e r c u r r e n t a n d fo r m e r
D ir e c t o r s G e n e r a l , D e p u ty D ir e c t o r s , G e n e r a l s a n d o t h e r s e n i o r o ffic i a ls
a n d M i n i s t e r s t o c o m e f o r w a r d w h o h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f v a r i o u s m a t te r s
t h a t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t to b e p la c e d b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n .
I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t y o u c a m e , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
D IR E C TO R N J E N J E :

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r P r e t o r i u s , y o u h a d a t h ir d w i t n e s s l in e d u p
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , a s d is c u s s e d i n c h a m b e r s C h a ir h e

w i ll n o t b e g iv in g e v i d e n c e , a t le a s t t h i s w e e k , b u t I w il l d i s c u s s i t w i t h
y o u p e r h a p s t o m o r r o w o r t h e f o l l o w i n g d a y, a n d c e r t a i n a d m i n is tr a ti v e
m a t t e r s th a t m u s t b e a t te n d e d to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t h e w i ll b e t e s t i fy in g i n d u e c o u r s e ?
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

I n d u e c o u r s e h e w il l te s t i fy c e r t a i n ly

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

Th e o n ly q u e s ti o n i s w h e n th e s e f o r w a n t

o f a b e t te r w o r d , I ’ m u s in g E u p h e mi s m , t h e a d m i n i s tr a t iv e m a t t e r s c a n
20

b e a t te n d e d t o , b u t I w i ll ta lk t o y o u a b i t l a te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o w t h a t’s f i n e .

A lr ig h t , w e a r e g o i n g t o

a d j o u r n t h e n fo r t h e d a y, t o m o r r o w I w ill h e a r e v id e n c e fr o m a n e x p e r t
w h o w i ll g iv e e v id e n c e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr C h a b i .

M r C h a b i c o n c e r n i n g c e r ta i n a c t u a r i a l a n d fi n a n c i a l

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26 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 193
m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g to Tr a n s n e t a b o u t tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t h a p p e n e d a t
Tr a n s n e t a b o u t w h i c h I h a v e b e e n t o ld , s o h e w il l g iv e e v i d e n c e
t o m o r r o w.
A s f o r t o d a y w e w il l a d j o u r n n o w. W e a d j o u r n .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :
REGISTRAR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 7 N O V E M B E R 2 0 1 9

10

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