C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

27 AUGUST 2019

D AY 1 5 0

20

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
PROCEEDINGS ON 27 AUGUST 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r M o k o e n a , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir w e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d .

C h a ir

y o u w il l r e c a ll th a t e a r li e r th is y e a r M r D u k w a n a a p p e a r e d b e fo r e th is
c o m m i s s io n ; h e a d d u c e d e v i d e n c e ; s u p p l ie d t h is c o m m i s s i o n w i t h
d o c u m e n ts a n d h e a ls o p r o m is e d M r C h a i r t h a t h e w il l b e r e t u r n i n g t o
t h is c o m m i s s io n t o s u b m i t fu r t h e r s t a t e m e n t a n d t o a d d u c e f u r t h e r
10

e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h i s c o m m is s i o n .

M r D u k w a n a a s p r o m is e d M r C h a i r

h e h a s n o w r e tu r n e d b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s io n .

H o w e v e r C h a ir b e f o r e

le a d i n g h is e v id e n c e p e r m i t u s t o d e a l w i t h a n u m b e r o f p r e li m i n a r y
is s u e s in o r d e r to p l a c e t h is p r o c e e d i n g s i n t h e ir c o n t e x t . Fir s t ly l e t u s
d o th a t b y d e a li n g w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t s w h ic h m u s t b e b e f o r e y o u . W e
h a v e p l a c e d a fi l e b e f o r e y o u C h a ir. Yo u w o u l d r e c a ll t h a t d u r i n g t h e
fir s t a p p e a r a n c e o f Mr D u k w a n a r e f e r e n c e w a s m a d e t o E x h i b i t X s o w e
h a v e p r e p a r e d a f il e – y o u w il l s e e Mr C h a ir t h a t th e fir s t f o l d e r
c o n ta in s E x h ib i t X w h ic h is M r D u k w a n a ’s p r e v i o u s s t a te m e n t a n d
d u r i n g t h e v e r y s a m e p r o c e e d i n g s M r C h a ir i f y o u m a y t u r n t o f o l d e r
20

n u m b e r 2 y o u w i ll t h e n fi n d t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t w h i c h w a s a ls o
h a n d e d i n b y Mr D u k w a n a d u r in g h is p r e v io u s a p p e a r a n c e b e fo r e t h is
c o m m i s s io n a n d it w a s t h r o u g h th e le a v e o f t h e C h a ir th a t i t w a s
m a r k e d Ex h ib i t X 1 .

A n d Mr C h a ir t h e r e w e r e a l s o t w o fu r t h e r

d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e r e li e d u p o n a n d r e f e r r e d d u r i n g t h o s e p r o c e e d i n g s
a n d y o u w i ll f in d t h e m a t F o l d e r n u m b e r 3 w h ic h is E x h i b i t X 2 a n d t h e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
o th e r d o c u m e n t t h a t fo ll o w s i m m e d i a t e ly t h e r e a f te r i t is E x h i b i t X 3 a t
F o l d e r n u m b e r 4 Mr C h a ir.

Th o s e a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h s e r v e d

b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s io n p r e v io u s ly.

W e t h o u g h t th a t f o r c o m p l e te n e s s

a n d to th e e x t e n t t h a t i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y w e s h o u ld in c l u d e th e m i n
t h is b u n d le s o t h a t i f t h e r e is a n e e d to r e fe r to s a m e a t le a s t w e d o
h a v e t h o s e d o c u m e n ts h a n d y b e f o r e t h is c o m m is s i o n .

N o w M r C h a ir

y o u w o u ld a ls o r e c a l l th a t w e d i d m a k e m e n ti o n e v e n t h o u g h w e d i d n o t
– w e d i d n o t s u b mi t t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r m a l ly b e f o r e y o u w e d id m a k e
m e n ti o n o f a n a ffi d a v it w h ic h w a s d e p o s e d t o b y M r I q b a l S h a r m a b u t it
10

w a s n o t i n t e r m s o f a n y r u l e s o f t h i s c o m m i s s io n .

It was not a 3.4

A p p l ic a ti o n a n d t h e r e f o r e i t – w e d i d n o t p l a c e i t fo r m a l ly b e f o r e y o u .
H o w e v e r M r D u k w a n a in h is c u r r e n t s t a t e m e n t d e e m e d it n e c e s s a r y a n d
p r u d e n t t o d e a l w i th t h e a v e r m e n ts t h a t a p p e a r s in t h a t a ffi d a v i t a n d f o r
g o o d o r d e r M r C h a ir w e t h o u g h t t h a t w e s h o u l d p u t i t b e f o r e y o u a n d
y o u w i ll s e e th a t i f y o u t u r n to F o l d e r n u m b e r 5 a n d w i th y o u r l e a v e M r
C h a ir w e p r o p o s e th a t i t s h o u ld b e r e f e r r e d to a s E x h i b i t X 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s h a ll b e s o m a r k e d a n d s o r e f e r r e d to .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

A n d Mr C h a ir th e l a s t d o c u m e n t

w h ic h is r e le v a n t f o r t o d a y s ’ p r o c e e d in g s y o u w il l fi n d it i n F o l d e r
20

number 6.

I t i s a f u r th e r s t a te m e n t w h ic h w a s h a n d e d t o t h e

c o m m i s s io n b y M r D u k w a n a in o r d e r to d e a l w i t h t h e fu r t h e r e v id e n c e
a n d th e fu r t h e r a s p e c ts a r i s i n g fr o m t h e d i ff e r e n t t o p ic s w h i c h h e
c a n v a s s e s i n t h e s ta t e m e n t a n d w it h y o u r le a v e M r C h a ir w e t h e r e f o r e
p r o p o s e th a t i t s h o u ld b e m a r k e d a s E x h i b i t X 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s h a ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t X 5 a n d s h a l l b e r e fe r r e d a s

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
such.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M r C h a ir I a m t o ld t h a t t h e r e w ill
b e – th e r e is a fiv e p a g e s u p p l e m e n t a r y w h ic h i s s t il l b e in g p a g i n a te d
p r o p e r ly b y t h e – s o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e le g a l te a m .

When –

w h e n w e h a v e i t a t o u r d is p o s a l a n d t h e n a t a n a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e w e w il l
t h e n m a k e it a v a i la b l e t o t h e C h a ir.

T h a t i s a s u p p l e m e n ta r y s i m p ly

a n n e x in g o n e o r tw o a n n e x u r e s a n d c o r r e c ti n g s o m e o f t h e th in g s i n t h e
in it i a l a ffi d a v i t . B u t f o r n o w w e s i m p ly m a k in g th e C h a ir a w a r e o f s a m e .
W e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d e a l w i th i t f o r n o w M r C h a ir.
10

N o w e v i d e n t Mr

C h a ir t h a t a f t e r h a v in g r e c e i v e d th is – th e fu r t h e r s u p p le m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t – t h e f u r t h e r s t a t e m e n t o f D u k w a n a i n o r d e r to c o m p ly w i t h
t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s r u l e s t h e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s w e r e d is p a t c h e d to v a r i o u s
p a r t i e s . I m u s t m e n ti o n M r C h a ir t h a t i n t h is s t a t e m e n t n o t le s s t h a n 3 0
3 .3 N o ti c e s w e r e d is p a tc h e d a n d fo r c o m p le t e n e s s M r C h a ir w e
p r e p a r e d a s c h e d u l e t h a t w e w il l in d u e c o u r s e h a n d i t to t h e C h a ir
in d i c a t in g t h a t o n th e 1 A u g u s t w h i c h is 2 6 d a y s b e f o r e t h is h e a r i n g th e
R u l e 3 .3 N o t ic e s w e r e d is p a t c h e d s u c c e s s f u ll y t o t h e f o l l o w in g p e o p l e .
M r El i a s A c e M a g a s h u le , M s S a r a h M a t a w a n e M l a m l e l i , R e v D a n ie l
M o t o b e la K o t a , M r T h a b o N tu m e t z i M o k e t s i [? ] a n d M s Q a b a th e . A n d

20

t h e n th e o t h e r 3 . 3 N o ti c e s M r C h a i r m a n w e r e d i s p a tc h e d o n t h e 3 1 s t
J u l y th e o n e o f M r. Ly d i a – M s Ly d ia M o t s e m m e w h ic h i t w a s d i s p a tc h e d
2 7 d a y s b e fo r e t h i s h e a r i n g . A n d w e h a v e t h e o n e – t h e o t h e r o n e s th a t
f o ll o w s w e r e d i s p a tc h e d o n t h e 1 s t A u g u s t g iv i n g t h e r e s p e c ti v e p a r ti e s
m o r e t h a n o r a p p r o x i m a t e l y 2 6 d a y s b e f o r e th is h e a r i n g a n d t h o s e w e r e
M o r a k e , [? ] Ip e l e n g , O c t a v ia , C h o l a te [? ] , M s C h o l a te , Ms R e f il o e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M o k o e n e , Mr B l a k e , Mr K o p u n g F r a n s R a lik o n t s a n e , M r I q b a l S h a r m a ,
M r E d w i n S o d d i, [ ? ] Mr M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e , M r S h a d r a c k R a m a t e , M r –
Ms

H a n ts i

B h e t il d a

M a ts e k e

Mayeza

[?]

and

Mr

Ti t u s

Mudowu

N e t c h iv o z a m e [ ? ] M r C h a ir. A l l th o s e h a d th e n o t ic e s 2 6 d a y s b e f o r e
t h is h e a r i n g a n d t h e r e m a i n in g o n e s i s w h e r e M r – w h e r e – w e r e
d is p a tc h e d o n t h e 5 t h A u g u s t th a t i s t h e o n e o f M s S h ir l e y M a z ib u k o a n d
o n th e 2 1 s t A u g u s t i t w a s t h e o n e o f – s o r r y – o n th e 5 t h A u g u s t M r
C h a ir is t h e o n e o f S h ir l e y M a z i b u k o M o t – R e v M o t o b i , M s N a n g u , Ms
To g i s A li c e M a l e m b e a n d M r S i th u m a S o l o m o n N tz e l e a n d t h e o n e s th a t
10

w e r e d is p a t c h e d o n t h e 1 2 t h A u g u s t s ti l l p r o v i d i n g 1 4 d a y s t o t h e
p a r t i e s w a s t h e o n e o f M r S i lo J o s e p h R a d e b e , Ms M e la n ie L i z M i tc h e l l.
S o a ll o f t h e p a r ti e s M r C h a ir o n o u r c o u n t i t i s a l m o s t th ir ty o f t h e
i m p l ic a t e – o f t h e p a r ti e s w h ic h w e r e s e r v e d w it h th e N o ti c e s .

What

h a s tr a n s p ir e d M r C h a ir i n o r d e r t o a v o id a n y u n f a ir c r i ti c is m s t h e r e h a s
a l w a y s b e e n a d e b a t e w h e th e r a p a r ty is b e in g i m p l ic a t e d o r w h e t h e r
h is n a m e is m e r e ly m e n t i o n e d . I n o r d e r t o a v o i d t h a t a n d t o e r r o n t h e
s id e o f c a u t i o n e v e r y i n d iv id u a l o r p e r s o n m e n ti o n e d in t h e s ta t e m e n t o f
M r D u k w a n a w a s th e r e fo r e f a v o u r e d w i th a R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e f o r t h a t
p a r t y to m a k e a n in f o r m e d d e c i s i o n w h e t h e r o r n o t t o i n v o k e a n y o f t h e
20

R u l e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n s o t h a t w e a r e n o t b e i n g c r i ti c is e d th a t n a m e s
o f p a r ti e s a r e m e n ti o n e d f o r th e f ir s t ti m e d u r i n g t h e o r a l e v i d e n c e a n d
p a r t i e s c l a i m in g th a t t h e y h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d t h e 3 . 3 N o ti c e s b e c a u s e
s o m e t i m e s w e t a k e th a t s ta n d t o s a y t h a t b y m e r e r e a d i n g t h a t
s t a te m e n t t h e p a r t ie s g o t i m p l ic a te d b u t s o m e b o d y m i g h t s a y t h a t w e l l I
w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n fa v o u r e d w i t h a 3 . 3 a n d t o e x e r c i s e th a t

Page 5 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
r ig h t .

B u t fo r t h i s p r o c e e d in g s w e h a v e m a d e s u r e t h a t e v e r y b o d y

m e n ti o n e d m u s t b e fa v o u r e d w i t h th a t c o p y M r C h a ir. To th e b e s t o f o u r
k n o w l e d g e a n d a s f a r a s w e c a n a s c e r t a i n Mr C h a ir w e h a v e n o t
r e c e i v e d a 3 . 4 A p p li c a t io n i n a [i n d is t in c t ] o f w h a t is r e q u ir e d i n t h e r u l e
o f th e c o m m i s s io n . H o w e v e r M r C h a ir t h e r e h a s b e e n s e r io u s r e a c t io n
b y d i ffe r e n t p a r t i e s .

O th e r s m i g h t h a v e c h o s e n t o r e s p o n d b y m e r e

le t t e r s . O th e r s s i m p ly p u t a n a ff i d a v i t a n d s a y th a t i t is a n a ffi d a v it i n
response

of the

a l l e g a ti o n s

and

we

thought

Mr

C h a ir

th a t f o r

c o m p le t e n e s s w e s h o u l d n o n e th e le s s p la c e t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e fo r e
10

t h e C h a ir s o t h a t w e a r e n o t c r i ti c is e d f o r h a v i n g l e f t o u t a n y o f w h a t
m i g h t b e m a t e r i a l e v i d e n c e o r c r i tic is e d f o r s u p p r e s s in g a n y o f t h e
d o c u m e n ts w h i c h c a m e a t y o u r d is p o s a l .

A ll o w u s M r C h a i r t o d o s o

w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o a f il e t h a t w e h a v e p r e p a r e d a n d w e h a v e c a l le d it a
C o r r e s p o n d e n c e – a R u l e 3 . 3 C o r r e s p o n d e n c e B u n d le a n d I t h i n k th a t i s
q u i te i m p o r t a n t th a t w e s h o u l d a t l e a s t p l a c e s o m e o f th e a c t iv i t ie s
p u r s u a n t to t h e s t a te m e n t o f Mr D u k w a n a a n d t h e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s h a v i n g
d is p a tc h e d .

W e h a v e s e p a r a t e d th a t M r C h a ir w i th d i ffe r e n t f o l d e r s .

W e w il l o n l y r e fe r y o u i n o r d e r f o r t h e C h a ir t o g e t t h e g is t t o th e
r e l e v a n t p a g e s a n d t o – t o th e r e a c ti o n t o th e l e t t e r s r e c e i v e d a n d th e
20

r e a c ti o n t h e r e to t o th o s e le t t e r s . T h e fir s t fo l d e r M r C h a ir p e r t a in s to
M r A c e M a g a s h u le b u t i t o n ly r e l a t e s t o h i s in i ti a l s ta t e m e n t. I f w e m a y
r e fe r th e C h a ir t o p a g e 1 6 i t w i ll g i v e th e C h a ir a b e t t e r u n d e r s ta n d i n g
a s to w h e r e w e a r e h e a d i n g w it h th is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: At page – at page 16 – 16.

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l b e f o r e – I a m s o r r y.

I have got page 16 but

b e f o r e y o u g e t in t o w h a t th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s a y s s h o u l d w e n o t h a v e
a l l l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s w h o a r e r e p r e s e n t in g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va r i o u s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: We can do…
CHAIRPERSON: Persons to place themselves on record.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: We can do it now Chair but I thought that
m a y b e I w o u l d a ff o r d th e m a n o p p o r t u n i ty.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A f t e r I h a v e p la c e d t h is b u t w e c a n d o
t h a t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f p a r t ie s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of them.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: That are being represented.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I n c lu d i n g Mr D u k w a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

T h e y c a n p l a c e t h e ms e lv e s o n r e c o r d .

They can also decide;
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A s t o h o w th e y w is h to r e a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t t h is s ta g e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To t h e p r o c e e d in g s .

Page 7 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a t t h is s t a g e le t u s j u s t h a v e th e m p l a c e

t h e m s e l v e s o n r e c o r d a n d th e n w e w i ll t a k e i t fr o m th e r e .

Then we

r e v e r t to M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE: Good morning DCJ.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

S m a n g a S e t h e n e I a m i n s tr u c t e d b y M r

M a s h a l a , S t a n l e y M a s h a l a w h o is h e r e .
J a m i e l a M y a p a w h o i s a la w s tu d e n t .
10

I am job shadowed by Ms

I a m fo r th e w i tn e s s M r M x o li s i

Dukwana.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Thank you.
M r C h a ir m a n d u ly i n s tr u c te d b y M a h a r a j

A t t o r n e y s o f D u r b a n a n d a p p e a r in g w it h m e M r S h a n e D i e l S C o f
Durban.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f a w i tn e s s w h o s e n a m e I

w i ll n o t d i s c l o s e b u t w h o s e n a m e is b e i n g d is c l o s e d i n c h a m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Th e r e a s o n f o r my n o t d is c l o s in g h is n a m e w il l

b e e v id e n t w h e n I a m g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o a d d r e s s th e c o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u M r H e ll e n s .
A D V S I M M Y L E B A L A : E s t e e m e d C h a ir
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SIMMY LEBALA:

L e b a la is m y n a m e .

Page 8 of 134

I a p p e a r f o r t h e D ir e c t o r

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
G e n e r a l i n t h e Pr e m i e r ’s o ff ic e Mr K o p u n g R a lik o n ts a n e w i t h m y
c o l l e a g u e s M s M a y e t i a n d M r M a n y i i n s tr u c t e d b y th e S t a t e A t to r n e y
Mangaung.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S I M M Y L E B A L A : P e r m i t m e t o m e n t i o n t o y o u t h a t w e la m e n t o n e
a s p e c t t h a t w e h a v e h e a r d t h a t th e r e is n o p a r ty t h a t h a s p r o v id e d t h e
R u l e 3 .4 s t a te m e n t i n t h e l i te r a l s e n s e . W e w a n t t h e r e c o r d t o r e fl e c t
t h a t w e d i d i n l i n e w i t h th e r u l e s o f t h e c o m m i s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
10

ADV JEROME LEVITTS:

C h a ir m y n a m e is J e r o m e L e v i t ts I a m f r o m

t h e fi r m Fl a x m a n s a n d I r e p r e s e n t E d w a r d – E d w i n S o d i .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you.
A D V P R I N E L J A G E N : M o r n i n g Mr C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Morning.
ADV PRINEL JAGEN:
Attorneys.

I

have

I am Prinel Jagenbay from Prinel Jagen
been

in s t r u c t e d

by

Mr

Ti t u s

Madow

Glen

Netchiwodzwa.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PRINEL JAGEN:
20

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T L E L I: M o r n in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV TLELI:

I a m K l e l iy i o n b e h a l f o f M s M la m l e l i . T h a n k y o u C h a ir

fr o m M o r r o k o A t t o r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n b e h a l f o f?

Page 9 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
A D V T L E L I:

M s M l a m l e l i. O li e M la m l e li .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T L E L I:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A N Y I: G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
A D V M A N Y I:

I am Manyi from Bloemfontein I am here representing Mr

S i w e in s t r u c te d b y M o l o ts i A t t o r n e y s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

A D V M A N Y I:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
A D V M J O K W E N I:

I a m M r N j o k w e n i i n s tr u c t e d b y S e th u m o n ts e l a .

Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Ye s M r M o k o e n a . Yo u h a d a s k e d m e t o

go to page 16, 16.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir. I m u s t c o m m e n d t h a t p a r ti e s
a r e w e l l r e p r e s e n te d M r C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Mr C h a ir i f w e t a k e i t f r o m p a g e 1 6 . Yo u
w i ll s e e t h a t f r o m t h e d a te i t is d a t e d t h e 11 t h A p r il 2 0 1 9 . I t w a s – a n d
if y o u t u r n t o p a g e 1 7 t h i s i s t h e l e t t e r w h ic h is s i g n e d b y M r E li a s
M a g a s h u le .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 10 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i n h i s le t t e r i f y o u m a y p la c e i t o n
r e c o r d Mr C h a ir h e s a y s :
“ I r e f e r t o t h e a b o v e m a t te r a s w e l l a s my l e t te r
tr a n s m i tt e d to y o u v i a e m a il o n th e 2 n d A p r il 2 0 1 9 . I
h a v e n o t e d th a t d u r in g D u k w a n a ’s e v i d e n c e … ”
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on one – Mr Mokoena.

Is e v e r y b o d y a b l e to

h e a r ? A t th e b a c k – is e v e r y b o d y a b l e t o h e a r ? W e l l n o b o d y s a y s n o
s o i t m u s t m e a n t h e y a r e a ll a b le t o h e a r y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o n e t h e l e s s I w il l t r y t o r a i s e t h e v o i c e
f o r t h e C h a i r ’s s a k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
“ I h a v e n o te d t h a t d u r i n g D u k w a n a ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t
r e fe r e n c e w a s m a d e to a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a f fi d a v i t a n d
h e a p p a r e n tl y s u b m i t t e d t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n o n t h e 5 t h
A p r il 2 0 1 9 .

C o n tr a r y t o t h e t w o – c o n tr a r y t o

p r e v i o u s t w o o c c a s io n s I w a s n e i th e r n o ti fi e d n o r
20

p r o v i d e d w i th a c o p y o f t h a t a ffi d a v it .

I would

a p p r e c ia t e i t i f I c o u l d p l e a s e b e f u r n i s h e d w it h t h a t
s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t w h ic h a p p e a r s to h a v e b e e n
m a r k e d A n n e x u r e X 1 d u r i n g D u k w a n a ’s t e s t i m o n y i n
t h e c o m m i s s i o n . T h i s w o u ld a s s is t m e w h e n I m a d e
m y e l e c ti o n a s s o u g h t i n t h e n o ti c e o f – n o ti c e i n

Page 11 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t e r m s o f R u l e 3 .3 t h a t w a s s e r v e d o n m e .

I have

a ls o n o t e d th a t D u k w a n a s e e m s n o t t o b e d o n e w i t h
h is e v id e n c e . I f I a m c o r r e c t k i n d l y a d v i s e m e a s t o
w h e n th e c o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m i s e x p e c t e d t o
fi n a l is e h is t e s t i m o n y.

I am of the considered view

t h a t I a m u n a b l e t o m a k e a n i n f o r m e d e l e c ti o n u n t il
D u k w a n a h a s f i n a li s e d h i s te s t i m o n y a n d I h a v e b e e n
p l a c e d i n p o s s e s s i o n o f h i s s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t .
I n t h e i n t e r i m I e l e c t to r e s e r v e m y r i g h t. ”
10

N o w M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f t h e C h a ir m a y tu r n t o p a g e 3 . Yo u w i ll
fi n d c o m f o r t i n k n o w i n g M r C h a ir t h a t M r M a g a s h u le w a s t h e r e f o r e
p l a c e d in p o s s e s s io n o f A n n e x u r e X 1 b u t th e r e w a s a l e t te r a ls o
r e a c ti n g t o it fr o m t h e c o m m i s s io n d a te d t h e 1 0 t h M a y 2 0 1 9 w h e r e i t
r e a d s a s f o l lo w s :
“ W e r e f e r to y o u r l e t te r – y o u r l e t t e r o f 11 t h A p r i l
2019 and the

e v id e n c e a d d u c e d b y M r M x o l is i

D u k w a n a b e fo r e th e c o m m i s s i o n . As y o u a r e a w a r e
20

R u l e 3 .3 o f t h e R u l e s o f th e C o m m i s s io n p r o v id e s
that:”
T h e n i t is s e t o u t i n d e t a ils M r C h a ir.

I w o u ld n o t r e a d i t i n o r d e r t o

s a v e ti m e a n d if y o u tu r n t o p a g e 4 .
“ Yo u a r e f u r n is h e d w i t h a R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e a n d t h e
s t a te m e n t o f s a i d D u k w a n a t o t h e e x t e n t th a t i t

Page 12 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
i m p l ic a t e d y o u .
periods

A s y o u a r e a w a r e th e r e a r e ti m e

prescribed

within

the

R u le s

of

the

Commission.”
T h e n r e f e r e n c e is m a d e t o R u le 3 . 4 Mr C h a ir.

Then paragraph 5

p r o c e e d s t o s ta t e a s f o ll o w s :
“ To d a te w e h a v e n o t a s y e t r e c e iv e d a n y a p p lic a ti o n
fr o m y o u a s c o n t e m p la t e d i n R u l e 3 . 4 p e r t a i n i n g t o
t h e R u l e s – p e r t a i n i n g t o th e R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e w h i c h
w a s d i s p a tc h e d to y o u c o n ta in i n g th e p o r t io n s o f t h e
10

e v i d e n c e o f M r D u k w a n a to th e e x t e n t t h a t h is
e v i d e n c e – t o t h e e x te n t t h a t h is e v i d e n c e – t h a t h i s
w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t i m p li c a t e d y o u . ”
6 Mr C h a ir.
“Please

find

annexures to
w e b s i te .

the
Mr

supplementary
Dukwana

on

a ff i d a v i t

with

t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s

I n d e e d M r D u k w a n a h a s n o t fi n a l is e d

a d d u c in g e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n a n d w e a r e
s t il l a w a i t i n g h is f u r t h e r s t a t e m e n t . A t t h i s s ta g e a s
t h e c o m m i s s io n w e a r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n t o i n d ic a te
20

w h e n – w h e th e r o r n o t h is f u r t h e r s ta t e m e n t a n d o r
t e s ti m o n y w i ll o r m a y i m p lic a t e y o u .

W e c a n o n ly

m a k e t h a t c a l l o n c e w e a r e i n p o s s e s s io n o f h i s
f u r th e r w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t . ”
A n d 8 i n d i c a t e s t h e a d d r e s s Mr C h a ir. A s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d th a t a R u l e
3 .3 w a s a ls o s e n t p e r t a i n i n g to t h is n e w s t a te m e n t o f M r D u k w a n a

Page 13 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
a ffo r d in g Mr M a g a s h u l e 2 6 d a y s u p o n w h i c h t o r e a c t. T h e r e h a s n e v e r
been any correspondence in that regard.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a ir i f w e c a n m o v e t o F o ld e r

n u m b e r 2 . Fo ld e r n u m b e r 2 i t i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m a l a w f ir m
S h a h i e d D o ll i e I n c o r p o r a t io n .

Yo u w il l s e e t h a t th e fir s t le t t e r i t is

d a t e d t h e 3 r d A p r i l 2 0 1 9 a n d t h e y a r e r e p r e s e n t in g Mr Iq b a l S h a r m a .
W h a t t h e y h a v e n o w – w h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e M r C h a ir t h e y h a v e
s u b m i tt e d t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d s u b s e q u e n tly t h e y t h e n s i m p ly
10

f o r w a r d e d a n a ffi d a v i t .

T h e o n e w h ic h I h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a s – a s

Exhibit X4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e r e a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t M r S h a r m a ’s a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s M r S h a r m a ’s a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o w h a t w a s t h e n d o n e M r C h a ir i f y o u
c a n t u r n t o p a g e 2 6 ? T h e n th e c o m m is s i o n a ls o d is p a tc h e d a le t t e r t o
M r S h a r m a ’s l e g a l t e a m w h e r e b y i t h i g h l ig h t e d q u it e a n u m b e r o f
20

is s u e s . A t p a r a g r a p h 1 i t s a i d :
“ W e r e f e r t o t h e e v id e n c e o f M r D u k w a n a w h i c h w a s
a d d u c e d b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n i n c l u d i n g t h e R u le
3 .3 N o ti c e s w h ic h w a s a c c o r d in g l y d is p a tc h e d t o y o u .
A s y o u a r e a w a r e tw o d a y s p r i o r t o Mr D u k w a n a ’s
a d d u c in g h i s e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s io n y o u

Page 14 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
d is p a tc h e d a d o c u m e n t a n d o r a ff id a v i t s ty l e d –
“s t a t e m e n t i n r e s p o n s e to t h e a l l e g a ti o n s i n t h e
s t a te m e n t o f M x o l is i D u k w a n a . ”

Yo u r a ff id a v it w a s

n o t a n a p p lic a ti o n a s e n v i s a g e d in R u l e 3 .4 o f t h e
R u l e s o f th e C o m m i s s io n a n d i t w a s n o t a p p a r e n t a s
t o h o w i t s h o u l d b e d e a l t w i t h a s it d id n o t c o m p ly
nor

c o n fo r m

w it h

any

of

the

Rules

of

th e

Commission.”
T h e n 3 – R u l e 3 . 3 i t is r e h a s h e d t h e r e M r C h a ir a n d if y o u t u r n t o p a g e
10

27 at paragraph 5 it says:
“ I t i s a p p a r e n t f r o m t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a d f il e d
t h a t it d o e s n o t c o m p ly n o r c o n fo r m w i t h R u le 3 . 3
a n d i t d o e s n o t s t a t e w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u w is h to
e x e r c is e a n y o f t h e r ig h ts p r o v i d e d

for in the

a fo r e s a id r u le a s p r o v i d e d f o r in R u l e s 3 . 3 . 6 .1 t o
3 .3 . 6 .3 w h ic h o f c o u r s e in c l u d e s y o u te s ti f y in g b e f o r e
t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d to b e c r o s s - e x a m i n e d . ”
A n d R u l e 3 . 4 Mr C h a ir i t is in d ic a t e d o n p a r a g r a p h 6 a n d i t y o u tu r n t o
p a g e 2 8 w i t h m e M r C h a ir w e w i ll s e e t h a t:
20

“ Yo u r a ff id a v i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e a n a p p lic a ti o n
a s e n v is a g e d i n R u l e 3 .4 .

C o u l d y o u p le a s e c l a r i f y

w h y y o u h a d fi l e d y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d h o w i t s h o u ld b e
d e a lt

with

Commission?

in

the

li g h t

of

th e

Rules

of

the

T h is a ffi d a v i t w a s fo r m a l ly – w a s n o t

f o r m a l ly p la c e d b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a s i t w a s n o t

Page 15 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
p u t to M r D u k w a n a i n o r d e r to r e a c t t o s a m e a s i t is
n o t c o n f o r m n o r c o m p ly w i th a n y R u l e s o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a n d a s s u c h i t w a s k e p t in a b e y a n c e i n
o r d e r f o r y o u t o d e c id e w h e th e r o r n o t y o u w is h e d to
in v o k e a n y o f t h e R u l e s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n fo r i t t o
b e p r o p e r ly a d m i t te d i n t e r m s o f th e R u le s o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n w e a w a i t y o u r r e s p o n s e i n th is r e g a r d . ”
Fr o m

that

date

Mr

C h a ir

up

u n t il

now

th e r e

was

no

further

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m M r Iq b a l S h a r m a p e r t a i n i n g t o th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr
10

D u k w a n a a s w e ll a s t h e 3 .3 N o t ic e s a n d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w a s
d is p a tc h e d t o h i m s u b s e q u e n t ly. I f y o u th e n – i f w e c a n t h e n m o v e M r
C h a ir

to

Folder

number

3

i m p o r ta n tl y

it

is

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m M S R a m a t a C A [ S A ] .

page

33

“ I h e r e b y a c k n o w le d g e r e c e i p t o f th e c o m m i s s io n ’s
correspondence dated the 2nd August 2019 regarding
M x o l is i’s

–

M x o l is i

D u k w a n a ’s

a ff i d a v i t

and

in t e n d e d a p p e a r a n c e a t t h e c o m m is s i o n . O n th e 3 r d
A u g u s t I r e q u e s t e d a d d i t io n a l i n f o r m a t i o n t o a l lo w m e
20

t o m a k e a n i n f o r m e d d e c is io n o n h o w t o r e a c t t o M r
M x o li s i D u k w a n a ’s c l a i m a s p e r p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 7 a n d
108

of

his

a ffi d a v i t.

Because

of

the

li m i t e d

in f o r m a ti o n a t m y d is p o s a l I a m u n a b l e t o d e c id e o n
t h e b e s t c o u r s e o f a c t i o n . I h o w e v e r d e n y th a t I w a s
in v o lv e d i n a n y w r o n g d o in g a s a ll e g e d o r in f e r r e d b y

Page 16 of 134

is

A ls o t h e y a c k n o w l e d g e

t h e y s a y t h a t i f y o u w i ll r e a d p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r 1 i t s a y s :

Mr

w h ic h

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M r M x o l is i D u k w a n a .

I f u r t h e r s p e c if ic a l l y d e n y t h e

f o ll o w i n g :
T h a t I h a v e e v e r b e e n a p p o i n te d a s a n i n d iv i d u a l b y
M r M a g a s h u l e t o s a n i tis e a n y r e p o r t th a t I h a v e a n y
personal

knowledge

to

any

e n ti t y

c a ll e d

R a m a t e / F ir e Va s b e in g a p p o i n t e d b y M r M a g a s h u le t o
s a n i ti s e a n y r e p o r t t h a t I h a v e e v e r s a n i ti s e d a n y
r e p o r t o r b e e n p a r ty t o s a n i t is a t i o n – t o s a n i t is i n g
any report.
10

That

I have

s a n i ti s i n g o r

any

knowledge

being

p a r ty

to

of
the

Mr

F ir e Va s

s a n i t is a t io n

[?]
to

s a n i ti s i n g a n y o f t h e r e p o r t .
T h a t I h a v e e v e n h a d s i g h t o f a n y s a n it is e d r e p o r t o r
r e p o r t s w h i c h M r Mx o li ls i D u k w a n a m a y b e r e f e r r in g
to.
T h a t I h a v e e v e r h a d a n y f a l lo u t w i t h M r Fi r e Va s .
T h a t I h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f F ir e Va s e v e r fo r m i n g
a n y e n ti ty c a l l e d – s o r r y a n e n t it y c a ll e d O p e n
Wa t e r s . ”
20

T h e la s t p a r a g r a p h s a y s t h a t :
“ F o r t h e r e c o r d I w a s a t o n e s t a g e a n o n - e x e c u t iv e
d ir e c t o r o f a n e n ti ty c a l le d R a m a t e F ir e Va s Fo r e n s ic
I n v e s ti n g – I n v e s ti g a ti o n A c c o u n ti n g S e r v ic e s P T Y
LTD t o w h ic h Mr M x o li s i D u k w a n a m a y b e r e fe r r i n g t o
in p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 7 a n d 1 0 8 o f h is a ffi d a v i t . ”

Page 17 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M r C h a ir.

S o t h is is t h e r e a c t i o n b u t h e w a s o n l y r e fe r r e d t o th e

p a r a g r a p h s w h ic h i m p li c a t e s i n th e s t a t e m e n t . H e t h o u g h t t h a t h e w a s
e n t i tl e d t o th e e n ti r e s t a t e m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s b u t th a t w a s c l a r if i e d t o
the Ramata CA.

S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t M r C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o – a n y

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t w a s r e c e i v e d a n d w e k n o w t h a t h e w a s a l s o
f a v o u r e d w i th a 3 . 3 N o t ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll d o w e k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e m i g h t n o t b e a n o t h e r
M r R a m a t h a t h a t is – t h a t w a s m e a n t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o Mr C h a ir b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t th e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e is n o t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u l o o k a t t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h i t is

q u i te r e v e a l in g i n a w a y t o s a y th a t [ i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e a d m i ts t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e r e w a s t h a t e n t i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N : H e m i g h t o n ly c o n t e s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: The name …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

In w h i c h i t w a s p l a c e d i n th e s t a te m e n t

…
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 18 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: But at the end of the statement …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u f in d t h a t h e s a y s t h a t b y t h e w a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e r e i s t h is o n e w h ic h I th in k th a t

M r D u k w a n a m i g h t b e r e f e r r in g to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h o s e w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h a c c o r d in g ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W i th M r D u k w a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a i r th e n i f y o u g o t o f o l d e r n u m b e r
f o u r it is w i th r e fe r e n c e t o a p a r ty r e f e r r e d to a s M o s id i M o ts e m m e w h o
a ls o r e a c te d a n d h e w a s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a i d ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F o l d e r n u m b e r f o u r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h i s 3 6 a d u p l ic a ti o n o f th e e a r li e r o n e o r i s it th e

o n e th a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

No.

We - we were looking at folder

n u m b e r t h r e e w h i c h is r e l e v a n t t o R a m a t e C A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I s e e 3 6 i s a ls o R a m a t e C A .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s i t i s - i t is d u p l ic a te d . I t is th e s a m e
thing.

Page 19 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t is d u p lic a t e d ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t is t h e d u p l ic a t e M r C h a ir. I f y o u tu r n
to folder number four …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

And

that

is

page

43.

It

is

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e d a te d 5 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 w h ic h w a s r e c e i v e d fr o m th e
A t t o r n e y s - Vi c to r N k h w a s h u A t to r n e y s w h o a r e a c ti n g o n b e h a lf o f
10

M s M o s id i Ly d i a M o ts e m m e a n d t h e y r e c o r d Mr C h a ir th a t :
“ W e r e fe r to th e a b o v e m a t t e r a n d a d v ic e t h a t w e
a c t o n b e h a l f o f M s M o s id i Ly d i a M o ts e m m e .

Our

c li e n t h a s h a n d e d t o u s a n o t ic e i n t e r m s o f 3 . 3
w h e r e in s h e w a s a d v i s e d t h a t M r D u k w a n a w i ll b e
p r e s e n t in g e v i d e n c e w h ic h mi g h t i m p li c a t e h e r. W e
w i s h to p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d th a t i n o r d e r f o r o u r c li e n t
t o f u l ly e x e r c is e h e r r i g h t s a n d t o m a k e a c h o ic e o n
w h a t a c t i o n to ta k e s h e r e q u ir e s th e f u ll e v id e n c e o f
M r D u k w a n a i n o r d e r t o g iv e c o n t e x t . ”
20

C l e a r l y Mr C h a ir t h e y a ls o w a n t e d a f u l l s t a t e m e n t a n d
a n n e x u r e s . S o p a r a g r a p h 4 it s a y s th a t :
“ T h e s t a t e m e n t o u r c l ie n t h a s b e e n f u r n i s h e d w i t h
c o n ta in s a t b e s t a n i n c o m p l e te s t a t e m e n t j u s t b y
w a y o f a n e x a m p l e . P a r a g r a p h 9 5 o f th e s t a te m e n t
e n d s w i t h a n in c o m p l e t e s t a t e m e n t w h i c h s t a r ts w it h

Page 20 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
the words “I am not sure if Motsemme …””
And then paragraph 5:
“ O u r c li e n t i s t h e r e fo r e u n a b l e t o e x e r c i s e h e r r i g h ts
w i t h o u t t h e f u l l s t a te m e n t o f M r D u k w a n a .

K in d l y

f u r n is h u s w i th t h e f u l l s t a t e m e n t o f e v id e n c e a s a
m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y s o t h a t w e c a n c o n s u l t w i th o u r
c li e n t a n d p r o v id e h e r w i th s u ffic i e n t l e g a l a d v ic e
o n th is m a t te r. W e t r u s t th a t y o u w il l f in d t h e a b o v e
in o r d e r. ”
10

T h a t w a s r e a c te d t o b y t h e C o m m i s s io n M r C h a ir o n p a g e 4 6 .
W e w i ll n o t r e a d t h e c o n t e n ts . I t is s i m p ly w e c l a r i f ie d t h e q u e s t io n t h a t
t h e y a r e n o t e n t it l e d to th e fu ll s t a t e m e n t b u t t h e y w e r e n o n e th e le s s
g iv e n t h e f u ll p a r a g r a p h s o f - t h e - t h e f u ll p a r a g r a p h s 9 2 to 9 5 o f
M r D u k w a n a w h ic h w a s a n n e x e d to t h e le t t e r.
S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e M r C h a ir t h e r e w a s n e v e r
a n y o t h e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m th e s a m e a tt o r n e y a n d w e c a n o n l y s a y
t h is t o t h e b e s t o f o u r k n o w le d g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e w e r e tw o p a g e s th a t w e r e c o n s i d e r e d t o

i m p l ic a t e h e r ?
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h o s e w e r e p r o v id e d ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e y w e r e p r o v id e d Mr C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: On 13 August?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

D e fi n i t e ly a n d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t a n d

t h e y w e r e g iv e n t o th e a t t o r n e y s …

Page 21 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

In a d v a n c e - l o n g i n a d v a n c e s o th a t

they can react …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O r c h o o s e w h a t c a u s e d t h e w is h t o

a d o p t. M r C h a ir t h e n y o u h a v e f o l d e r n u m b e r fiv e a n d w h a t is r e l e v a n t
M r C h a ir i s w h a t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e 5 5 w h e n t h e p a r t y w is h e d to p l a c e
a - a n a ffi d a v i t a n d i t is H a n ts i B h e ti l d a M a ts e k e a n d i n t h a t s t a t e m e n t
M r C h a ir s h e r e p e a ts th e n o ti c e w h i c h w a s d is p a tc h e d to h e r.
S h e a ls o o n p a g e 5 6 r e p e a ts t h e d o c u m e n ts s u p p l i e d t o h e r

10

b y th e C o m m i s s io n a n d o n p a r a g r a p h 3 s h e t h e n r e p e a ts th e p a r a g r a p h
w h ic h is s a i d t o i m p li c a t in g h e r o r m a y i m p lic a t e h e r a n d s h e g iv e s a
h is t o r y o n p a g e 5 7 a b o u t t h e V D C C h a ir m a n s h i p a n d r e l a t e d m a t t e r s .
M r C h a ir I a m d o in g t h is b e c a u s e I h a v e r e a d i t.
I t is n o t r e l e v a n t fo r - f o r w h a t o u g h t to b e c o n v e r s e d b u t o n
p a g e 5 8 s h e g iv e s t h e c o n s tr u c t io n o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h e a ll e g e d
c o n fli c t o f i n te r e s t in t h e Vr e d e 1 0 0 0 Pr o je c t a n d w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e
p a r a m o u n t Mr C h a ir i s o n p a g e 6 0 i n r e la ti o n to p a r a g r a p h 7 w h e r e
s a y s t h a t:
20

“ I h a v e p e r u s e d t h e N H B R C f o r m i n r e la t i o n t o t h e
e n t i ty k n o w n a s U n i t il e ( ? ) H o ld in g s ( P t y ) L t d i n
p a r t ic u l a r p a g e s 2 1 3 t o 2 1 6 o f - o f t h e a n n e x u r e s o f
M r D u k w a n a ’s

statement

which

the

C o m m i s s io n

r e fe r r e d m e t o a n d I d o n o t h a v e a n y r e s p o n s e a s
t h e s e d o c u m e n t s h a v e n o t h i n g to d o w i t h m e o r a n y

Page 22 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
o f my e n ti ti e s .

I a m a l s o n o t r e l a te d t o p e r s o n s

m e n ti o n e d i n th is d o c u m e n t . ”
The next paragraph she says:
“I have

a ls o

perused

th e

CIPC

d o c u m e n ts

in

r e l a ti o n t o th e e n t i ty k n o w n a s U n i ti le H o l d i n g s
( Pt y ) L t d i n p a r ti c u l a r p a g e s 2 1 7 t o 2 1 9 o f - o f th e
a n n e x u r e s o f M r D u k w a n a ’s s ta t e m e n t w h ic h t h e
C o m m i s s i o n r e fe r r e d m e t o a n d I d o n o t h a v e a n y
r e s p o n s e a s t h e s e d o c u m e n ts h a v e n o t h in g t o d o
10

w i t h m e o r a n y o f m y e n ti t ie s . I a m a ls o n o t r e l a t e d
t o p e r s o n s m e n ti o n e d i n th is d o c u m e n t . ”
Next paragraph:
“ S i n c e M r D u k w a n a ’s a l l e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t m e a r e
li m i te d o n l y t o p a r a g r a p h 7 5 o f h i s s t a t e m e n t I h a v e
t h e r e f o r e li m i t e d m y r e s p o n s e o n ly to p a r a g r a p h 7 5
o f M r D u k w a n a ’s s ta t e m e n t .

Should Mr Dukwana

g iv e e v i d e n c e w h ic h is n o t p a r t o f h is s t a te m e n t
u n d e r r e p ly a t th e C o m m is s i o n a n d w h ic h e v i d e n c e
i m p l ic a t e s m e o r h a s t h e p o t e n t ia l t o i m p l i c a t e m e I
20

r e s e r v e my r i g h t t o p r o c e e d o f c o u r s e w i t h le a v e
fr o m th e C h a i r p e r s o n o f th e C o m m i s s io n i n t e r m s o f
p a r a g r a p h 5 o f R u le 3 . 3 N o t ic e r e a d w i t h R u l e 3 o f
the

C o m m i s s i o n ’s

Rules.

Against

th e

above

b a c k g r o u n d a t t h is s t a g e h o w e v e r I d o n o t i n t e n d to
p r o c e e d in t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 5 o f t h e R u l e 3 . 3

Page 23 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
N o t ic e . ”
M r C h a ir t h a t is t h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t w a s c o n v e y e d to t h e
C o m m i s s i o n b y th a t a ff id a v i t M r C h a ir.

The next correspondence we

fi n d i t o n f o l d e r n u m b e r s ix . I t a p p e a r s fr o m - i t is - i t w a s d i s p a tc h e d
b y M e l a n i e D a v i d I n c o r p o r a t i o n a n d it is a s i m p le s t a t e m e n t t h a t is
b e i n g m a d e o n p a r a - o n p a g e 7 8 M r C h a ir.
T h e y a r e r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e D ir e c t o r o f M a s t e r Tr a d e 2 3 2 ( P ty )
L td . T h a t is Mr M e l a n i e D a v id . T h e y s a y t h a t :
“ I h a v e r e c e iv e d t h e n o ti c e b u t p le a s e n o t e I a m n o t
10

t h e D ir e c to r o f M a s t e r Tr a d e 2 3 2 ( P ty ) L t d . T h is w a s
a shelf company that was formed by a company I
w o r k e d f o r 2 0 y e a r s a g o a n d I r e s ig n e d w h e n th e
c o m p a n y w a s s o l d t o a c li e n t .

I h a v e a t ta c h e d a

c u r r e n t C I P C p r i n to u t o f t h e c o m p a n y ( i n d is ti n c t )
dated - date as 26 October 1999.
knowledge

at

all

of

t h is

I have no

c o m p a n y.

K i n d ly

acknowledge receipt.”
T h a t i s a l l t h a t w a s c o n v e y e d a n d w it h r e fe r e n c e t o f o l d e r
n u m b e r s e v e n Mr C h a ir i t i s a l e t te r b y M r G e o r g e F iv a z .
20

That letter

M r C h a ir i t is - i t s t a r ts f r o m p a g e 8 4 . I t i s d a t e d 1 9 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . W e
a r e n o t g o in g t o r e a d t h a t l e t t e r in t o t h e r e c o r d . I t is a lo n g le t t e r b u t
t h e r e a s o n a ls o i s t h a t i t i m p l ic a t e s a n u m b e r o f i n d iv id u a l s w h o w e r e
n e v e r fa v o u r e d w i t h a n y n o t ic e n o r b e in g m a d e a w a r e o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f
t h is le t t e r b u t t h e l o n g a n d s h o r t o f i t M r C h a ir is t h a t M r F iv a z a l le g e s
t h a t h e w a s a w a r e a t s o m e p o i n t t h a t h is c o m p a n y w a s u s e d i n t h e Fr e e

Page 24 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
S t a te in o r d e r t o fa b r ic a te s o m e o f t h e r e p o r ts b u t h e g o e s - h e s a y s s o
with

r e fe r e n c e

to

p a r tic u la r

names

of

in d i v i d u a ls

who

were

u n f o r t u n a t e ly n o t fa v o u r e d w i th 3 . 3 N o ti c e s b u t h e h a s a ls o e x te n d e d
a n i n v i ta t io n to th e C o m m i s s io n th a t h e is p r e p a r e d i f y o u l o o k a t p a g e
8 9 M r C h a ir. H e s a y s t h a t :
“ I a m p r e p a r e d t o p r o v i d e a s w o r n a ff i d a v i t a n d
v e r b a l e v id e n c e u n d e r o a t h t o th e C o m m is s i o n t o
c o n fir m t h e a b o v e s ta t e d f a c ts . ”
T h a t w i ll a ls o i n d u e c o u r s e b e d e a l t w i t h a n d p r o p e r ly b e
10

p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u a n d a s ta t e m e n t b e - b e in g o b t a in e d fr o m h i m i n t h a t
r e g a r d . S o w e s i m p ly d o n o t w is h t o r e a d th a t le t t e r i n o r d e r to a v o id
i m p l ic a t e - p e o p le th a t a r e i m p li c a t e d w h o m h e r a i s e s e r io u s o b je c t i o n s
t o t h a t a n d in a l l fa ir n e s s w i t h i n t h a t i t is a p r u d e n t w a y to d e a l w i th i t.
T h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e Mr C h a ir is t h e o n e o n f o l d e r n u m b e r
eight.

The

d a te s

are

quite

important

M r C h a ir.

It

is

the

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m M a h a r a j A t t o r n e y s w h o a r e r e p r e s e n t in g a s p e r
t h e le t t e r d a t e d 2 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 t h e i m p l ic a t e d p a r ty Mr T W Z u l u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e le t t e r s t a r ti n g a t p a g e w h a t?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t p a g e 1 0 6 M r C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: 106?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 106.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t is t h e l e tt e r f r o m M a h a r a j A t t o r n e y s

d a t e d 2 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 w h ic h w a s d is p a tc h e d to t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d f o r
t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h ic h w e m u s t b r i n g to y o u r a t t e n t io n

Page 25 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M r C h a ir. I t s a y s r e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t … ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: T W …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t th e o n e w h e r e p r e fe r a b l y t h e n a m e s h o u l d n o t
b e m e n ti o n e d a t t h i s s ta g e - o f t h e p e r s o n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is w h a t M r …
CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r H e ll e n s r e fe r s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Fo r - m a y b e fo r n o w le t u s d o th a t a n d t h e n w h e n I

h a v e h e a r d e v e r y t h i n g w e c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e l l M r C h a ir w it h o u t m e n t i o n in g t h e

name …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e c li e n t o f Mr H e l le n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

And

you

w i ll

see

th a t

the

f ir s t

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w a s d is p a t c h e d o n 2 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . I a m s u r e t h a t
I c a n m e n ti o n th e n a m e o f t h e a t t o r n e y s - M a h a r a j A t to r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Paragraph 1 says:
“ M r C h a i r I r e f e r to t h e a b o v e m a t te r a n d r e c o r d
t h a t I h a v e b e e n c o n s u l te d b y … ”
I w il l n o t m e n t i o n t h e n a m e .
“ … a n i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n a r i s i n g f r o m t h e c o n t e n t s o f
the

a ff id a v i t

fi le d

before

the

Page 26 of 134

Commi ssion

by

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M x o li s i D u k w a n a .

I a m a w a i ti n g r e c e ip t o f f u r th e r

in s t r u c t i o n s f r o m t h e c li e n t r e g a r d i n g h i s e le c t i o n
u n d e r R u l e 3 . 3 . 6 o f t h e r u l e s a n d w e w i ll - w i ll
r e v e r t i n t h is r e g a r d i m m i n e n tly t o g e t h e r w i t h a n
a p p lic a ti o n f o r c o n d o n a ti o n . ”
S o th is le t t e r Mr C h a ir w a s s e n t a s i t i s o n 2 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

And

on

23 August 2019

page

108

M r C h a ir - I d o n o t w a n t t o lo s e y o u - a n d i t s a y s t h a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . I t is
10

fr o m

the

same

attorneys

-

Maharaj

Attorneys

d i s p a tc h

Commission.
“ W e e n c l o s e h e r e w i t h th e r e s p o n s e b y o u r c li e n t … ”
A n d t h e n a m e is m e n ti o n e d .
“ … t o t h e R u le 3 . 3 N o ti c e . A l t h o u g h t h e n o tic e w a s
s e r v e d b y e m a i l o n t h e p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t o f t h e
c li e n t o n 5 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 th e c li e n t w a s a t t h e t i m e
on sick leave.

H e o n l y r e tu r n e d to w o r k o n

1 2 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . A l t h o u g h i n d is p o s e d t o ill n e s s h e
m a d e e ff o r ts t o o b ta in r e g a r d r e p r e s e n t a t io n .

The

fir m a d v is e d m e t h a t a ll e g a ti o n s w e r e s o s e r i o u s

20

t h a t h e s h o u l d t a k e a d v ic e fr o m s e n i o r c o u n s e l . ”
Four:
“ T h e fir m a c c o r d in g ly e n g a g e d t h e s e r v ic e s o f
M r Mi c h a e l H e l le n s S C a n d M r S h a n e D a y a l S C t o
a d v ic e c l ie n t .

O b t a i n i n g le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a ls o

Page 27 of 134

to

the

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
r e q u ir e d

Mr Z u l u w h o is b u t - o b t a i n in g le g a l

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n … ”
I t is g o i n g t o b e d i ffi c u l t Mr C h a ir.
“ … a ls o r e q u ir e d c li e n t w h o is b u t a n i n d iv i d u a l t o
raise

s u ffi c i e n t

fu n d s

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n n e c e s s a r y.

to

finance

the

legal

A l l o f c o u r s e c li e n t n o t

t o b e a b le t o r e s p o n d w i th in 1 4 d a y s p r o v i d e d f o r a
r e s p o n s e w h i c h 1 4 d a y s p r e s u mi n g w o u ld r u n fr o m
5 August 2019.
10

W e h o p e t h a t y o u w il l n o t e t h a t

n o t w i t h s t a n d in g b e i n g i ll h e c o m m e n c e d e ffo r t s t o
o b t a i n le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d fi n a l d a t e o b t a i n
le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n h a v i n g s c r a p p e d t o g e th e r t h e
fi n a n c e s t h e r e o f .

T h is r e s p o n s e w h ic h i s i n o n c e

s e n s e la t e b u t i n r e a l s e n s e a r e s p o n s i b le r e s p o n s e
w a s m a d e a s s o o n a s t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a ll o w e d i t .
W e tr u s t t h a t t h is la t e r e s p o n s e w i ll n o t b e s e e n a s
a reason why the evidence proposed to be led and
f o r e s h a d o w e d i n t h e R u l e 3 .3 N o tic e w i l l n e v e r n e v e r t h e l e s s b e l e d n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e v e r y c le a r
20

e v i d e n c e o f t h e c li e n t c o n ta i n e d i n t h e a ff id a v i t
annexed hereto.

S e n i o r c o u n s e l is a b l e t o e n g a g e

t h e C o m m is s i o n o n a n u r g e n t b a s i s a n d i n a n y
e v e n t w il l a t te n d t o t h e - a t t h e C o m m is s io n o n
Tu e s d a y a n d t o m a k e p u b li c c o m m e n t s o f c l i e n t to
e n s u r e t h a t h i s r e p u ta t io n i s n o t u n n e c e s s a r ily

Page 28 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t a r n is h e d a n d i s n o t d e f a m e d .

We trust that the

C o m m i s s i o n w il l t a k e th e c o n te n ts o f t h e c li e n t ’s
a ffi d a v i t a n n e x e d h e r e t o v e r y s e r i o u s l y i n d e e d t h e
s t a te m e n t o f o u r c l ie n t .
d is c r e ti o n

that

you

F o r y o u t o e x e r c is e th e

have

under

the

rules

to

p o s tp o n e t h e p r o p o s e d l e a d in g o f h is e v id e n c e
p e n d i n g a m o r e r e s p o n s i b le in v e s ti g a t io n b y t h e
C o m m i s s i o n o f t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e a ffi d a v i t o f t h e
c li e n t . ”
10

A n d i t w a s s i g n e d b y M r M a h a r a j Mr C h a ir a n d a n n e x e d t o i t
is t h e a ffi d a v i t o f t h e c l ie n t .

Mr C h a ir s t a r ti n g fr o m p a g e 111 a n d t h e

e s s e n c e M r C h a i r o f t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d I a m s u r e t h a t M r H e l l e n s w i ll i n
m u c h m o r e a b l e w a y s p l a c e i t b e f o r e y o u b u t t h e e s s e n c e o f i t M r C h a ir
is t h a t th e n a m e t h a t i s a p p e a r i n g in t h is s p r e a d s h e e t a n n e x e d to
M r D u k w a n a ’s s t a te m e n t w i t h t h o s e i n i ti a l s d o n o t r e f e r t o th is c li e n t
a n d t h e r e f o r e th a t t h is c l ie n t d i d n o t t a k e p a r t o r p a r t ic i p a te a t a l l i n t h e
a s b e s to s s a g a a n d h e n e v e r e v e n r e c e iv e d a n y a m o u n ts i n th a t r e g a r d .
I a m s i m p ly s u m m a r is i n g a n d p a r a p h r a s i n g w h ic h I t h i n k is
t h e h i g h li g h t o f th e s ta t e m e n t. T h e r e m i g h t b e o t h e r s t a t e m e n t s w h ic h
20

d e p e n d in g a s t o h o w M r H e ll e n s d e a ls w i t h t h e m w h ic h w e m a y w h i c h t o
r e s p o n d t o i n d u e c o u r s e b u t f o r n o w w e w il l le a v e t h e m a n d s i m p ly
d e a l w it h t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s w i t h th e i n t e g r it y t h a t i t d e s e r v e s M r C h a ir.
T h e n e x t p o i n t Mr C h a ir is f o l d e r n u m b e r n i n e .

It was not

p r o p e r ly y o u k n o w p u t i n a fo l d e r b e c a u s e t h i s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e k e p t o n
c o m i n g i n e v e n to d a y i n t h e m o r n in g Mr C h a ir b u t w e tr i e d to d o o u r

Page 29 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
b e s t t o c o l l a t e a ll t h e d o c u m e n t s a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e p la c e
w h a t e v e r n e c e s s a r y i n f o r m a ti o n a n d t h o s e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e f o r e th e
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e d iv id e r m a r k e d N r a t h e r t h a n n i n e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M in e i s m a r k e d N n o t n i n e . T h e n e x t o n e a ft e r e i g h t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I k n o w C h a ir a n d i t is b e c a u s e i t w a s

s i m p l y d e a l t w i t h w i th in t h i s h a l l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i ts c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s c o m i n g a n d
w e a l s o ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s t h e o n e - is th a t t h e o n e i m m e d ia t e l y a f te r

page 123.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f y o u g o to p a g e 1 2 4 . F o r tu n a te ly t h e y
a r e p a g i n a t e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 2 4 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 124 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA
20

SC:

And

if

one

tr a c e s

t h is

is

the

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o I d o n o t w a n t to s a y i t is M s o r M r s a n d I
a m w r o n g M r C h a ir m a n b u t t h e s u r n a m e I c a n s e e t h a t i s Mr I t h i n k
K o p u n g Fr a n s R a lik o n ts a n e a n d a s y o u c a n s e e fr o m t h e d a t e s M r C h a ir
a p p e a r i n g a t th e b o t t o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n n o t s e e th e n a m e t h a t y o u a r e m e n t io n i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I - I - i f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 2 4 M r C h a ir.

Page 30 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON: I am at 124.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And then you look at the second

s e n te n c e .
“ T h i s is a n a p p li c a t io n f o r l e a v e … ”
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : “ … t o g i v e e v id e n c e b r o u g h t b y
…”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h a t is w h e r e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I thought that one should derive the

name.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a ir t o t h e b e s t o f w h a t o n e c a n

a s c e r t a i n d e s p i te t h e s u b m is s io n t h a t w e m a d e th a t i t w a s c l e a r ly a
R u l e 3 .4 a p p l ic a ti o n a n d w h ic h w a s f u r n is h e d i n t e r m s o f t h e r u l e s
s i m p l y g l a n c i n g a t t h e d a te y o u w i ll s e e M r C h a i r th a t i t w a s d is p a tc h e d
t o t h e C o m m i s s io n if I a m c o r r e c t f r o m w h a t I a m r e a d i n g - i s i t o n t h e
23rd?
20

UNKNOWN PERSON: On the 20th - on 23rd yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O n t h e 2 3 r d Mr C h a ir.

We may be

c o r r e c t e d b u t t h a t is w h a t w e h a v e b e f o r e u s a n d i f y o u g o t o p a g e 1 2 4
it s i m p ly b e t w e e n th e - th e l in e s . I t s a y s t h a t :
“ T h e s ta t e m e n t i n s u p p o r t o f 3 . 3 fo r l e a v e to g i v e
e v i d e n c e d i s p u ti n g c e r t a i n p o r t io n s o f th e e v i d e n c e

Page 31 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
o f th e w i t n e s s M r M x o l is i D u k w a n a t o te s t i fy o n t h e
27th and 28 August 2019.”
I d o n o t w i s h to b e t e c h n ic a l to th e e x t e n t t h a t w e a r e c a ll e d u p o n t o
r e a d t h is a s a 3 . 4 N o t ic e .

S o M r C h a ir m a n w e w il l p u t b e f o r e y o u a s

t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is j u s t t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t d o e s n o t e v e n h a v e th e

date when it was signed.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

It - it does not have what - what

p r a y e r s o n e w o u l d s e e k y o u k n o w li n i n g t h e m w i t h t h e 3 . 3 o r 3 .4 b u t w e
10

d o n o t w a n t t o b e te c h n i c a l . I f y o u g o …
CHAIRPERSON: Well we …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To p a g e 1 5 0 M r C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll h e d o e s s a y h e s e e k s l e a v e t o - is i t a h e o r a
she?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: He. He seeks leave …
CHAIRPERSON:

H e d o e s s a y h e s e e k s l e a v e . I t is a n a p p li c a t io n i n

t e r m s o f R u le 3 .3 …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To g iv e e v i d e n c e d i s p u ti n g c e r ta i n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r l e a v e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: But it signed. It appears that if you go
t o p a g e 1 5 0 M r C h a ir. I th in k i t w a s s i g n e d . It s a y s t h a t th a t is s ig n e d
at Bloemfontein 23 August 2019.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Page 32 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a t w h a t p a g e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t p a g e 1 5 0 . I t a p p e a r s to b e s ig n e d o n
t h a t d a y. A t l e a s t th e r e i s a d a t e Mr C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e e n d o f t h e a ffi d a v i t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: It is 150.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B e c a u s e a t 1 5 1 y o u t h e n fi n d t h e

s ig n a tu r e o f Mr R a li k o n ts a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s . T h e a ff i d a v i t .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . S o i t i s s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i s i t a n a ffi d a v i t o r ju s t a s ta t e m e n t? L o o k s l ik e
ju s t a s t a t e m e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Was signed on 23 August.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t is a s t a t e m e n t .

T h a t is w h y w e a r e

s a y in g t h a t w e a r e n o t - w e a r e n o t s u r e t h a t i t is a n a p p li c a t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A s p r o v i d e d f o r in t h e R u l e s a n d w e

k n o w w h a t R u l e 3 . 4 o f t h e C o m m is s i o n r e q u ir e s t h e p a r ty t o d o
20

M r C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h a t i s th e r e a s o n t h a t w e s i m p ly

s a y t h a t it w a s a s ta t e m e n t in r e a c t in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

To t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e s ta t e m e n t o f

Page 33 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M r D u k w a n a r a th e r t h a n i t b e i n g a R u le 3 .4 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A p p li c a t io n . T h a t is - w e c a n l e a v e i t a t
t h e r e . Mr C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e c a n a l s o m e n t io n th a t a n u m b e r o f

t h e s e d o c u m e n ts a n d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w e h a v e a c tu a lly p u t b e f o r e
the Commission we have not had time to even put them before
M r D u k w a n a a n d h i s le g a l te a m fo r t h e m t o a c c o r d in g r e a c t b u t w e j u s t
10

t h o u g h t th a t i n f a ir n e s s t o th e p a r t ie s t h a t m i g h t h a v e a c tu a lly
e n d e a v o u r e d t o p l a c e th e m b e fo r e t h e C h a ir. L e t u s d o t h a t .
A s to h o w w e a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i t h t h e m i n th e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s th a t w il l b e s o m e t h in g t o b e d ir e c t e d b y th e C h a i r in d u e
c o u r s e h a v in g h a d s u b m is s i o n s fr o m d i ff e r e n t p a r t ie s .

The last one

M r C h a ir t h a t I a ls o s a w f o r th e fi r s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t - w e ll t h a t - t h a t o n e e n d in g a t th e a ffi d a v i t
o f o r th e s t a t e m e n t o f M r R a li k o n ts a n e t h e y s h o u l d f in d i t q u it e e a s y t o
c o n v e r t i t i n to a n a ff id a v i t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

T h e la s t o n e M r C h a i r if I a m

c o r r e c t t o s a y th a t is t h e l a s t o n e b e c a u s e d o c u m e n ts k e p t o n c o m in g
a n d th e r e w a s a l a te r e a c ti o n t o th e s t a t e m e n t o f Mr D u k w a n a . I t is t o
b e f o u n d i n th e l a s t fo l d e r. I a m e v e n n o t c o n f i d e n t e n o u g h t o t e ll y o u
w h e t h e r i t is fo ld e r n u m b e r 1 0 o r w h a t f o l d e r i t is b e c a u s e th e y w e r e a l l

Page 34 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
prepared today …
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: But at least page 183 …
CHAIRPERSON: I have …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Might give us guidance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A - a d iv i d e r w h i c h h i s p r e c e d e d b y p a g e 1 8 3 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is n o t m a r k e d 1 0 . W h a t i t i s m a r k e d is e it h e r z e r o
o r O o n e o f t h e t w o . I f y o u p u t o n e i t w i ll b e 1 0 .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr C h a ir i t i s p a g e - i f I m a y r e fe r t h e

C h a ir t o p a g e 1 8 3 I h o p e th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

It w i ll a c c o r d w i th p a g in a ti o n t h a t I a m

having.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h is is t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h ic h w e

r e c e i v e d . I t c o n t a i n s th e s t a t e m e n t th a t is o n p a g e 1 8 7 Mr C h a ir. Th a t
s t a te m e n t o r i t is a n a ffi d a v it . L e t m e ju s t - i t is a s ta t e m e n t M r C h a ir
b y B la c k ie S i w e ( ? ) …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d it s i m p l y a r e a c ti o n t o M r D u k w a n a ’s
s t a te m e n t p u r s u a n t t o t h e p a r ty h a v in g b e e n f u r n is h e d w i t h a R u l e 3 . 3
N o t ic e a n d h e s i m p ly f u r n i s h e s h is o w n v e r s i o n i n th a t a ffi d a v i t a n d
a tt e m p ts t o a ls o d e a l w i th t h e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t r e l a t e t o h i m i n t h e
m a n n e r t h a t h e d id fr o m p a g e s 1 9 1 .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e h a v e a l s o n o t h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o
p r o p e r ly a p p l y o u r m i n d t o t h e s e d o c u m e n t s t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P la c e t h e m p r o p e r ly b e f o r e Mr D u k w a n a
a n d h is le g a l t e a m f o r t h e m to r e a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

As you know Mr Chair that we have no

v e r s i o n a s t h e C o m m i s s i o n b u t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e l e a d is th e o n e
10

t h a t is fr o m t h e w it n e s s e s a n d t h o s e w i t n e s s e s a l l o f t h e m a r e t h e
witnesses of the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr C h a ir t h o s e a r e t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e

t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d i n r e a c t io n to M r D u k w a n a .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d g iv i n g t h a t

e v i d e n c e b u t I a m s u r e t h a t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t th e r e mi g h t b e t h e
p a r t i e s a s w e h a v e i n d ic a te d a n d a s y o u m i g h t h a v e h e a r d in c h a m b e r s
t h a t w h o m a y w i s h t o m a k e c e r ta i n s u b m is s io n s b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I - fr o m w h a t tr a n s p ir e d i n c h a m b e r s I

u n d e r s t o o d M r H e ll e n s t o b e t h e o n e w h o m a y w is h to r a is e s o m e p o i n t
and depending on what he has to say there maybe - there may be a
need for responses.

I f t h e r e is s o m e o n e e l s e w h o h a s a n o t h e r p o in t

t h a t d o e s n o t r e l a te t o t h e p o i n t th a t Mr H e ll e n s w is h e s to r a is e . T h e n I
w i ll - I w il l g e t t o k n o w a f t e r M r H e l l e n s a n d a f te r w e h a v e d e a l t w it h

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h e p o i n t t h a t M r H e ll e n s w is h e s to r a is e . Ye s Mr H e ll e n s .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir y o u a r e a w a r e o f

t h e c l i e n t t h a t I r e p r e s e n t a n d th e s i m p l e p r o p o s i ti o n th a t w e p l a c e
b e f o r e y o u i s th is , w e d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a v e h a d s ig h t o f t h e
e v i d e n c e t h a t t h i s w i tn e s s i n te n d t o g iv e a n d w e d o n o t o ff ic ia ll y k n o w
w h e t h e r y o u h a v e h a d s i g h t o f t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t o u r c li e n t h a s g iv e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I h a v e h a d s ig h t o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t t h i s

e v i d e n c e w il l g i v e , I d i d n o t h a v e s i g h t o f t h e s ta t e m e n t fr o m y o u r c l ie n t
a s y e t u n ti l i t w a s p o i n te d o u t n o w.
10

ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

L e t m e b r e a k t h a t u p i n to t w o p o i n ts w h ic h

a r e f o u n d a ti o n fo r t h e a d d r e s s t h a t I w a n t to m a k e , o r p e r h a p s t h r e e .
Fi r s tl y i t i s i n c u m b e n t u p o n t h i s C o m m i s s i o n g iv e n t h e s a c r e d d u ty t h a t
it h a s t o i n v e s ti g a te r e s p o n s ib ly, t o p r e s e n t e v id e n c e w h ic h n e e d n o t b e
c a s t i r o n i n n a t u r e b u t m u s t n o t b e w a n t o n l y s p e c u l a ti v e .
A s I s ta n d h e r e , y o u a n d I a r e o n N a ti o n a l T V a n d t h e
a l le g a ti o n s a b o u t m y c l ie n t w i ll b e n a ti o n a l ly p u b lic is e d a ll o v e r.

Yo u

a s t h e g u a r d i a n o f t h e r e a s o n a b l e c o n d u c t o f th is C o m m i s s io n , s o l e l y
r e s p o n s i b l e th e r e fo r e h a v e t o e n s u r e , i n o u r s u b m is s i o n , t h a t w i ld ly
s p e c u l a ti v e e v i d e n c e is n o t p la c e d b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s io n e v e n i f my
20

c li e n t w e r e t o b e g i v e n t h e r ig h t o f c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n a n d d e m o n s t r a t e s
it to b e u n tr u e , t h e h a r m is d o n e b y l e a d i n g s p e c u l a ti v e

and

u n m e r i t o r i o u s e v i d e n c e p r i m a fa c i e s o .
N o w w h a t w e s a y th e a ll e g a t i o n s w it h r e g a r d t o o u r c l i e n t –
a n d l e t m e m a k e th is p o in t i t i s s p e c if ic a l l y th e a ll e g a t i o n s m a d e a b o u t
o u r c li e n t n o t t h e g e n e r a l t o p ic . W e h a d n o o b j e c ti o n t o a n y th i n g s a i d

Page 37 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
b y t h i s w i t n e s s o n th e g e n e r a l t o p i c b u t w h e n h is s t a te m e n t f o c u s e s i n
a t o n e m o m e n t – a t o n e p o i n t o n a n a ll e g a ti o n i d e n ti fy i n g o u r c li e n t a s
r e s p o n s i b l e i t i s b l a ta n tl y s p e c u l a tiv e , i t i s u n s u p p o r t e d b y a n y
d o c u m e n ts a n d th e d o c u m e n t a s a w h o l e , b y t h e w a y, b u t w e a r e n o t
c o n c e r n e d w i th th e d o c u m e n ts a s a w h o l e , i s lik e a r u n n in g s c a n d a l
s h e e t o f a p e r s o n th r e e ti m e s r e m o v e d fr o m t h e f a c ts . A n d w h e t h e r y o u
w a n t t o h e a r t h a t e v id e n c e w i th r e g a r d t o o t h e r p e o p l e is u p t o
y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

H a n g o n M r H e ll e n s , I t h i n k i t w o u l d b e b e t t e r t h a t I

r e a d y o u r c li e n t ’s s t a t e m e n t f ir s t .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I was just going to get to that.

Because I think you might or might not need to

p e r s u a d e m e m u c h , d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t I t a k e o f th e m a t t e r b u t I w il l
f o ll o w y o u r a r g u m e n t m u c h b e tt e r i f I ’v e h a d a lo o k a t i t .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

L e t m e j u s t s a y w h a t I e x p e c t t h a t y o u w i ll

fi n d , y o u w i ll f in d th a t i n c o n c r e te f o r m m y c li e n t d e n i e s a n y
in v o lv e m e n t , h e t e n d e r s – h e s a y s ,
“ n o - o n e h a s a s k e d m e fo r a v e r s i o n b e f o r e , n o i n v e s t ig a t o r s
h a v e in t e r r o g a t e d m e , I t e n d e r m y b a n k s t a te m e n ts , I t e n d e r a
20

c o m p le t e

i n v e s t ig a ti o n

by

th e

Commi ssion

w i th

myself

p e r s o n a l ly in a t t e n d a n c e a n d a ll I a s k is t h a t b e f o r e y o u r u i n
m y r e p u ta t io n a n d m y c a r e e r y o u p o s t p o n e t h i s e v i d e n c e , n o t
a s a w h o l e n e c e s s a r ily b u t w i th r e g a r d t o m e a n d i n v e s ti g a t e
t h is c a s e p r o p e r ly ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e id e n t i fi c a t io n ?

Page 38 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

Ye s a n d w e g o o n to s a y t h a t i t i s

r e c k l e s s ly g a t h e r e d w i t h r e g a r d t o o u r c l ie n t a n d I s a y t h is w i t h th e
d e e p e s t h u m il it y w i t h t h e u t m o s t s tr e n g t h . T h e r e a r e c o n s e q u e n c e s to
t h is C o m m i s s io n a c t in g u n l a w fu ll y a n d r e c k le s s ly a n d w e w il l – l e t m e
stop there.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll a s I s a y I h a v e n o t r e a d h i s s t a te m e n t b u t i f i t ’s

g o i n g t o b e o f a n y h e lp in h o w w e h a n d le – d e a l w i th t h e m a t te r, I
w o u ld b e i n c l in e d , a n d I h a v e n ’ t r e a d t h e s t a t e m e n t , I w o u ld b e i n c l i n e d
t o s a y to th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s le g a l te a m a n d t o M r D u k w a n a ’s l e g a l t e a m
10

h o w m u c h h a v e w e d o n e to tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t th e id e n ti fi c a t i o n is
r e a s o n a b l e , m a y b e th a t ’s n o t t h e c o r r e c t w o r d b u t th a t ’s t h e w o r d t h a t
c o m e s t o m y m i n d i m m e d i a t e ly … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e p r o d u c t o f a r e a s o n a b le … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

I t’s n o t – i t mi g h t n o t b e c e r t a i n b u t t h a t it ’s

r e a s o n a b l e a n d i f t h e a n s w e r is , it m i g h t b e b e t t e r to g e t m o r e ti m e t o
d o fu r t h e r e ff o r ts , my i n c li n a ti o n w o u ld b e t o s a y, w h y d o n ’ t w e a l l o w
t h o s e e ff o r t s t o b e m a d e f ir s t a n d a t t h e e n d o f th o s e e ff o r ts th e n w e
c a n h e a r w h e th e r th e id e n ti fi c a t i o n t h a t w a s in t e n d e d t o b e m a d e w il l
s t il l b e m a d e a n d i f i t w il l s ti ll b e m a d e i t m a y b e t h a t i t s h o u ld b e
20

a l lo w e d a t th a t s t a g e b u t in c a s e t h e f u r th e r e ff o r ts c o n f ir m i n g t h e
id e n t i fic a t io n r e v e a l t h a t i t ’s n o t c o r r e c t , i t m i g h t n o t b e m a d e .
T h a t w o u ld b e m y i n c li n a t i o n b u t I s a y s o – I s a y I m a k e t h a t
in c li n a ti o n k n o w n w i t h o u t h a v i n g r e a d y o u r c l i e n t ’s s t a te m e n t a n d
w i t h o u t h a v in g c o m p a r e d i t w i t h w h a t M r D u k w a n a s a y s .

I d o – I d id

s e e y o u r c l ie n t ’s n a m e s o m e w h e r e a n d I d i d s e e h o w i t w a s – w h a t w a s

Page 39 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
said about it.

S o t h a t ’s m y t h i n k in g m a y b e I s h o u l d h e a r w h a t M r

M o k o e n a h a s to s a y a n d w h a t c o u n s e l f o r M r D u k w a n a h a v e t o s a y a n d
d e p e n d in g o n w h a t th e y h a v e to s a y, I m ig h t – w e m i g h t h a v e to a d j o u r n
a n d l e t m e r e a d a n d th e n w e c o m e b a c k .
ADV MIKE HELLEN S SC:

Yo u h a v e t h e e s s e n c e o f m y s u b m is s i o n s i n

t h e c u p o f y o u r h a n d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u . W h o s h o u l d c o m e f ir s t , Mr M o k o e n a ?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M r C h a ir t h e r e ’s p r o t o c o l a t t h e b a r.

M r D u k w a n a ’s c o u n s e l w ill g e t a c h a n c e t o s t a n d

[i n d is t in c t] in m y r e s p o n s e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a ir w e a r e i n c li n e d t o f o l l o w t h e

C h a ir ’s a p p r o a c h a n d a d v ic e b u t l e t ’s d o s o in a f a r m u c h m o r e
r e s p o n s i b l e m a n n e r.

W e a r e n o t d o i n g t h is b e c a u s e o f f e a r o f a n y

t h r e a ts t h a t m ig h t b e l e v e l l e d a g a in s t t h i s C o m m i s s io n o r m a y b e b e i n g
in ti m i d a te d th a t w h e n w e l e a d e v i d e n c e t h e r e m a y b e c o n s e q u e n c e s .
W e a r e s i m p ly d o i n g t h a t i n [i n d is t in c t] t h e f u r t h e r a n c e o f t h e m a n d a t e
o f t h i s C o m m i s s io n n o t b e c a u s e o f a n y fe a r.
W e a r e c a ll e d u p o n t o d e a l w i t h t h e e v id e n c e t h a t ’s r e c e i v e d
fr o m a n y w i tn e s s w i th o u t f e a r, f a v o u r o r p r e j u d i c e a n d n o t t o tr e a t a n y
20

o f t h e e v i d e n c e s i n a n y s p e c i a l m a n n e r b u t w e a r e m in d fu l t h a t th e
C h a ir m i g h t h a v e n o t y e t r e a d t h e a ff i d a v it o f t h e c l ie n t o f M r H e l le n s
a n d t o t h a t e x t e n t m a y b e i t’s th e r e s p o n s ib l e th i n g t o a ff o r d y o u t h a t
o p p o r t u n i ty to d o s o M r C h a ir. T h a t ’s a l l t h a t I w a n t t o s a y f o r n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is y o u r p o s i t io n t h a t y o u w o u l d p r e fe r t h a t I r e a d

t h e s t a te m e n t / a ffi d a v i t fi r s t b e fo r e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s y o u m a y d o t h a t M r C h a ir b u t t h a t

s h o u l d n o t d e l a y th e le a d i n g o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h i s w i t n e s s . W h a t w e
c a n d o , w h i le y o u ’r e s ti ll g o i n g t o r e a d , w e c a n l e a d M r D u k w a n a ’s
e v i d e n c e a n d t o t h e e x te n t t h a t w e m i g h t b e c o m e n e a r t h a t p o r t i o n ,
m a y b e th e n t h e C h a ir m i g h t d ir e c t, s o t h a t w e d o n ’ t w a s t e a n y t i m e
u n n e c e s s a r il y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h e n d o y o u e x p e c t M r D u k w a n a m i g h t c o m e t o

t h a t , s o I m e a n , b a s e d o n w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g o n e p o s s i b i li ty is t h a t y o u
w o u ld n o t – if h e c o m e s t o t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t o f h is e v i d e n c e w e w il l s k i p
10

t h a t p a r t w h ic h i s a v e r y li m i t e d p a r t a s I u n d e r s t a n d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ve r y li m i t e d Mr C h a ir.

W e w o u l d s k ip th a t p a r t a n d if h e s k i p s th a t p a r t i t

m i g h t – i f i t c o m e s u p to d a y a n d h e s k ip s i t , i t m i g h t m e a n th a t
t o m o r r o w … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

To m o r r o w w e m i g h t h a v e to d e a l w it h i t

d e p e n d in g o n h o w y o u d e a l – y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n o f c o u r s e I w o u l d h a v e r e a d i t b y t h e n , th e o n ly

d i ff ic u l ty w i t h th a t m ig h t m e a n t h a t M r H e ll e n s c li e n t m i g h t h a v e t o
b r i n g b a c k M r H e ll e n s a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m t o m o r r o w w h e n m a y b e w e
20

m i g h t h a v e f in a l is e d e v e r y th in g to d a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s M r C h a ir, b u t I m e a n t h a t w e a r e

d o i n g i n o r d e r t o c a te r fo r h is c l ie n t ’s i n t e r e s t a n d s o w e a r e d o i n g s o
b e c a u s e w e w e r e p r e p a r e d t o l e a d e v id e n c e o n a l l th e is s u e s a n d th e
t o p ic s b u t h a v in g lis t e n e d t o Mr H e l le n s a n d h a v i n g l is t e n e d t o t h e
C h a ir ’s a p p r o a c h in t h i s r e g a r d , i t m ig h t b e a s e n s i b l e th in g t o d o a n d

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
I’ m n o t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n , w h e n I h a d a lo o k a t t h e - a t M r

H e ll e n s c li e n t’s a ff id a v i t a s y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g e a r li e r i t l o o k e d lik e it
m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g l ik e s e v e n p a g e s , i s t h a t m o r e o r l e s s …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s a v e r y s h o r t a ff id a v i t .

So it may be that if I were to take an extended tea

b r e a k I m i g h t b e a b l e to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s y o u m ig h t b e a b le t o r e a d i t t h e n I

m i g h t a ls o h a v e t o l e a d Mr D u k w a n a w i th o u t a n y i n t e r r u p ti o n s b u t I’ m
10

s u r e th a t m y l e a r n e d c o l le a g u e M r S m a n g a m i g h t w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g
on this.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s le t m e h e a r.

ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

C h a ir, w e a ls o w a n t t o p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d

t h a t M r D u k w a n a is h e r e t o a d v a n c e t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l m a n d a te o f th is
Commission.

H e ’s

here

without

fe a r

or

fa v o u r

and

under

no

c ir c u m s ta n c e s s h o u ld t h is C o m m is s i o n tr e a t a n y b o d y w i t h k i d g l o v e s .
W e a r e in [ in d is ti n c t ] w i t h M r M o k o e n a t h a t t h e C h a ir s h a ll b e a ff o r d e d
a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o g o th r o u g h t h e s t a t e m e n t, a f t e r w h ic h t h e C h a ir w ill
b e i n a p o s i ti o n to li s te n t o th e s u b m is s i o n s t h a t w il l b e a d v a n c e d b y Mr
20

H e ll e n s S C w i t h Mr D y l e S C a n d t h e n c e r t a i n l y w e s t a n d r e a d y t o g i v e t o m a k e o u r s u b m is s io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

A n d w e d o n o t w a n t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e th is

C o m m i s s i o n w o u ld h e a r th e e v i d e n c e o f M r D u k w a n a i n t e r r u p te d , w e
w a n t th e c o h e r e n c e i n h is s t a te m e n t to b e w h a t i s c a p t u r e d in t h e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
s t a te m e n t a n d i n th a t r e g a r d , a n e x t e n d e d t e a w e a r e i n c o n s e n t w i th
t h a t b u t b e f o r e th a t i t a p p e a r s t h a t M r L e b a l a S C w a n ts t o a d d r e s s y o u
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I ’ m s o r r y i s Mr L e b a l a c o m i n g o n th e s a m e

is s u e .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

Mr C h a ir m a y I ju s t s a y th a t I a g r e e t h a t

y o u s h o u l d l o o k a t o u r s t a t e m e n t , m a k e a d e c is i o n a b o u t th a t , a n d j u s t
t o m a k e a p o in t , I m a y h a v e a lr e a d y m a d e , w e ’r e n o t tr y i n g t o s to p th e
le a d i n g o f t h is w i t n e s s i n to t a l , i t ’s ju s t i f i t ’s c o n s id e r e d t h a t m o r e
10

r e s e a r c h w i t h r e g a r d t o o u r a ll e g e d in v o lv e m e n t is n e c e s s a r y h e c a n b e
le d w i th o u t t h a t p o r ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u , Mr L e b a l a .

A D V S I M M Y L E B A LA S C :

E s te e m e d C h a ir t h e r e ’s a n in c r e m e n t a l

is s u e c o m i n g o u t o f w h a t y o u ’v e h e a r d p a r t ic u l a r ly fr o m o u r le a r n e d
fr i e n d Mr M o k o e n a .

W e d o n ’ t w a n t to d e a l w i t h th e [i n d i s t i n c t ] o f t h e

r u l e s C h a ir b u t t h e d ir e s t r a i ts c r e a t e d b y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h ic h is
s t a n d in g b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t y o u ’ r e ta lk in g a b o u t y o u r s t a t e m e n t w e a r e

s t il l t a l k i n g a b o u t M r H e l l e n s c l ie n t ’s s t a t e m e n t .
20

ADV SIMMY LEBALA SC:

W e ll a c c o m p a n y i n g t h a t i s th e f a c t th a t t h e

C o m m i s s i o n w o u l d b e a s s is t e d i f o u r s t a t e m e n t is a ls o g i v e n t o t h e
w i t n e s s b e c a u s e o u r s t a te m e n t s h e d s li g h t a b o u t th e v e r s i o n o f o u r
c li e n t C h a ir a n d a l l i n c l u s iv e l y I … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w h a t h a s t h a t g o t t o d o w i th t h e i d e n t i fic a ti o n

o f M r H e ll e n s c li e n t , b e c a u s e t h a t ’s w h a t I’ m d e a li n g w i th .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
ADV SIMMY LEBALA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s a s e p a r a t e is s u e M r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

J a b u t I s a i d l e t m e fi n is h th e i s s u e r e l a ti n g t o M r

H e ll e n s c li e n t .
ADV SIMMY LEBALA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Thanks.

O k a y a lr i g h t , I t h i n k I w i ll ta k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t i t is

q u a r t e r p a s t e l e v e n , M r M o k o e n a i s t h e r e a n y t h in g y o u w a n t t o s a y
b e f o r e w e ta k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o , n o M r C h a ir.

N o t h i n g , I ’l l ta k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t it w il l b e l o n g e r

t h a n u s u a l s o t h a t I c a n g e t t h e c h a n c e t o r e a d , I’ m g o in g to r e s u m e a t
t w e n ty to tw e lv e , i n s t e a d o f h a l f p a s t e le v e n b u t i f I h a v e n ’t fi n i s h e d I
m i g h t r e s u m e a li t t le – a f e w m i n u te s l a t e r t h a n th a t , w e a d jo u r n .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

S o r r y C h a ir, m a y I s u g g e s t t h a t i n th e

m e a n t i m e p e r h a p s i t w il l b e p r u d e n t t h a t t h e C h a i r is f a v o u r e d w i th o u r
s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t b e c a u s e t h a t s t a te m e n t i s g o i n g t o g i v e t h e
c o n te x t in … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n t h e id e n ti fi c a t io n .

ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s in M r H e l l e n s s ta t e m e n t .

O h o k a y I t h in k y o u m e n t io n e d th a t t h e r e w a s s ti ll

s o m e s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t . D o e s M r H e ll e n s h a v e t h a t b e c a u s e i t
m i g h t p u t a d i ffe r e n t p ic t u r e t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a ir w e ’l l m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u

r e c e i v e i t w i th in th e n e x t f iv e m i n u t e s , m a y b e if w e c o u l d r e s u m e a t 1 2
o ’ c l o c k t o a ll o w th a t o p p o r tu n i t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e b e c a u s e M r H e l l e n s is – i f h e h a d n ’t

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
received it he might want to have a look at it as well but, shall we make
it – h o w l o n g is th is s u p p le m e n t a r y ?
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

C h a i r p e r s o n i t is o n ly f o u r t o f iv e p a g e s , i t

a c c o m p a n i e s t h e v e r y s a m e e m a il c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s t h a t a r e i n is s u e
w h ic h a r e t h e b a s i s o f t h e c o n te n ti o n o f M r H e ll e n s c li e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr ig h t , I t h in k l e t m e – M r H e ll e n s I s e e y o u

w a n t to s a y s o m e t h in g .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

M r C h a ir m a n w e w e r e g iv e n a R u l e 3 .3

n o t ic e , w e r e s p o n d e d t o i t , w e w e r e to l d a t th e la s t m i n u te t h a t t h e r e ’s
10

s u p p l e m e n t a r y e v id e n c e , w e u n d e r s t a n d n o w it w o u ld b e i n r e s p o n s e t o
what we responded.

T h i s i s th e fi r s t m o m e n t w e h e a r o f i t , i t ’s

u n t e n a b le , it ’s u n a c c e p ta b le , w e c a n n o t j u s t b e b u l l d o z e d in t o r o l li n g
o v e r n o w w i th a s u r p r i s e s t a t e m e n t p r o d u c e d .
W h a t ’s s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n w i t h a r e s p o n s i b l e i n v e s ti g a ti n g
b o d y is y o u i n te r r o g a te p e o p l e , m a y b e u n d e r s u m m o n s , m a y b e u n d e r
v o l u n ta r y s u b m i s s io n w h ic h w e w o u l d h a v e d o n e .
Yo u d e v e lo p a s o b e r a t ti t u d e to w a r d s o n e s e t o f e v id e n c e a s
a g a in s t a n o t h e r, y o u i n v e s ti g a te i t p r o p e r ly b u t y o u d o n ’ t o n th e d a y,
a l lo w a w i t n e s s t o d o a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t i n a n s w e r t o a
20

c o n s i d e r e d s t a t e m e n t b y u s a n d t h e n a s k f o r a r u li n g o n t h e d a y, w e
n e e d a n o p p o r tu n it y t o r e s p o n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o y o u w il l n e e d t o h a v e a lo o k b u t I th i n k le t

t h e a d j o u r n m e n t g o u p to t w e l v e a n d th e n a t tw e lv e I’ ll r e s u m e a n d th e n
w e ’l l th e n s e e w h a t w e c a n d o o r h o w fa r w e g o .
ADV MIKE HELLENS SC:

A s i t p l e a s e s t h e C h a ir.

Page 45 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e ’l l a d j o u r n .

R E G I S T R A R : A ll r is e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

I h a v e h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty o f r e a d in g Mr H e ll e n s

c li e n t ’s a ff i d a v i t a s w e l l a s M r D u k w a n a ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it .

I

w a s u n a b l e t o fi n d a n y t h i n g in M r D u k w a n a ’s s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t
t h a t r e l a te s t o t h e i d e n ti f ic a t i o n o f M r H e l le n s c li e n t a n d a s I s i t h e r e
m y i n c li n a t i o n is t o s a y w e c o n t in u e to s e e k t o s tr ik e a b a l a n c e b e t w e e n
10

e n s u r i n g f a ir n e s s to i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s b u t a ls o e n s u r i n g th a t a s f a r a s
p o s s i b le w e a r e n o t u n d u ly h a m p e r e d i n t h e w o r k t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n
h a s to d o .

M y in c l in a ti o n i s t h a t w h e r e w e a r e d e a li n g w i th a p e r s o n

w h o s a y s b e f o r e y o u m e n ti o n m y n a m e p u b l ic l y i n r e g a r d to s o m e t h i n g
lik e t h i s I a m h e r e , I a m c o o p e r a ti n g , y o u h a v e n o t s p o k e n to m e , c o m e
a n d s p e a k t o m e a n d I w il l c o o p e r a t e .

M y in c l in a ti o n is t o s a y i f t h e

c o m m i s s io n h a s n o t d o n e t h a t a s y e t i t s h o u ld r a th e r d o th a t a n d i f a t
t h e e n d o f t h a t e x e r c i s e t h e p o s it i o n is s t ill t h a t t h e p o s it i o n d o e s n o t
c h a n g e t h e n o n e c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e .

B u t y o u m i g h t w e l l fi n d th a t

t h e p o s i ti o n c h a n g e s i n w h i c h c a s e it c o u l d m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e . I t d o e s
20

n o t a p p e a r t o m e t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e m u c h p r e j u d i c e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n
if w e w e r e to g o t h a t r o u t e . S o I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o s a y – t h a t
is – t h a t is n o t a r u li n g y e t t h a t i s a n i n c li n a ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I do not know if you want to say anything Mr

Mokoena?

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a i r o n ly i f t h a t i n v it a t io n w a s m a d e
m u c h m o r e e a r li e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Yo u h a v e s e e n t h a t – j u s t m a d e o n

Fr id a y w e – w e a r e a w a r e t h a t p a r a m o u n t t o t h i s c o m m is s i o n ’s
p r o c e e d i n g s i t is y o u k n o w th e c o n c e p t o f f a ir n e s s a n d o n e w o u l d w a n t
t o e n s u r e t h a t a ll t h e p a r ti e s a r e a ffo r d e d s u ffi c i e n t t i m e t o r e a c t t o
w h a t e v e r s t a t e m e n t s t h a t m ig h t b e m a d e y o u k n o w a g a i n s t t h e m o r
e v i d e n c e t h a t m i g h t b e l e d w h i c h m i g h t i m p l ic a t e o t h e r p e o p l e . S o w e
10

a r e m u c h m o r e in c l in e d to a d o p t t h a t a p p r o a c h s u b j e c t o b v i o u s ly t o
w h a t Mr S m a n g a S e th e n e m i g h t w a n t t o s a y a n d o r s u b je c t t o w h a t M r
H e ll e n s m i g h t w a n t t o c o n v e y t o th e C h a i r.

W e a r e – i f th e e v i d e n c e

w a s t o b e le d i t w il l b e le d i f t h e – y o u h a v e t o a p p ly c a u t io u s – t o b e
c a u ti o u s t o i t w e w il l d o t h a t e x a c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o u n c il fo r M r D u k w a n a .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

W e – w e b e l i e v e t h e C h a i r h a s r e a d th e

s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e y e s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
t o g e th e r

w it h

the

legal

I n th e p r e p a r a ti o n w i th M r – w i th c l ie n t
te a m

of

the

c o m m i s s io n

t h is

is s u e

of

a b b r e v ia t io n s o f n a m e s w a s a r tic u la t e d b y M r D u k w a n a g iv in g c o n te x t
t o h is c o n t e n t i o n i n h i s s t a te m e n t s a y i n g w h y S S is S m a n g a S e t h e n e
a n d P M i s P h ill i p M o k o e n a .

B e s id e s C h a ir a n y o n e w h o c o m e s b e fo r e

Page 47 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h is c o m m i s s i o n t h a t S S s h a ll n o t b e s t a t e d a n d c h a l le n g e s th e fa c t th a t
S S m e a n s S m a n g a S e t h e n e a n d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n fi n d s t h a t t h e r e a r e
p u b lic a ti o n s l ik e t h is b o o k w h e r e t h e v e r y s a m e o r a s i m il a r c o n t e n ti o n s
a r e a d v a n c e d b y th e o ffe r.
c o m m i s s io n

is

s i m p ly

W h a t M r D u k w a n a is b r i n g i n g t o th e

e v id e n c e .

To

say

there

was

th is

e m a il

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n d ir e c to r s o f c o m p a n i e s w h o b e n e fi t t e d fr o m
a s b e s to s h e is t a s Mr D u k w a n a t e r m s i t . A n d it is t h o s e e m a il s t h a t w i ll
put PM at the scene.

A n d w h a t M r D u k w a n a d o e s n o t s a y i n h is

s t a te m e n t h e d o e s n o t s a y d e f in i ti v e ly t h a t P M c e r t a i n l y m e a n s P h i ll ip
10

M o k o e n a . H e s a y s P M i t is b e li e v e d t o b e P h il li p M o k o e n a w h o a t t h e
ti m e o f t h is p r o j e c t w a s a t t h e h e l m .

N o w i f C h a i r if I w e r e t o t a k e

C h a ir t o th is b o o k r i g h t w h ic h w a s p u b l is h e d i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n la s t
N o v e m b e r a n d t h e n P M is s t a t e d t h e r e a n d a r e a s o n a b le r e a d e r c o m e s
t o a c o n c lu s i o n th a t b e c a u s e P M w a s a t t h e h e l m o f a c e r t a i n
d e p a r t m e n t a t t h e t i m e a r e a s o n a b l e p e r s o n w il l c o m e t o a c o n c l u s io n
t h a t i n d e e d P M c o u l d b e b e li e v e d t o b e P h il li p M o k o e n a .

T h a t i s th e

c o n te n ti o n . N o w I d o n o t s e e h o w th is c o m m is s i o n ’s w o r k is g o in g t o
b e h a m p e r e d e v e n i f w e w e r e t o g o b y t h e a b b r e v i a te d v e r s i o n t o s a y i t
is P M .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I [ in t e r v e n t i o n ] .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : I [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

I – I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d M r H e ll e n s to

o b j e c t t o t h e m e n ti o n i n g o f c e r t a i n i n it i a l s .

My understanding of his

o b j e c ti o n w a s a n y t h i n g t o s a y t h o s e i n i t ia ls r e f e r t o h is c l i e n t . I t h i n k
t h a t i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is n o t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t y o u r c l i e n t s h o u ld n o t
s a y w e l l t h is d o c u m e n t r e fe r s to t h a t b u t h e – h is c o n c e r n is a n y th i n g t o
s u g g e s t t h a t t h o s e in i ti a l s r e f e r to h i s c l ie n t .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

T h a t is w h y C h a ir I a m s a y i n g th e r e is

n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h i s c o m m i s s io n c o n t i n u i n g w i t h it s w o r k .

When it

c o m e s t o M r X it w o u ld s a y – i t – l e t u s c a l l h i m Mr X th r o u g h o u t a n d
t h e n s a y w h y – M r D u k w a n a w il l s a y w h y h e b e li e v e s i n d e e d M r X i s a t
t h e s c e n e o f t h e a s b e s t o s h e is t a s h e p u ts i t .
10

nothing wrong.

Th e r e is n o – t h e r e is

I n v a r io u s c a s e s i n h ig h c o u r t a n d e l s e w h e r e w h e r e

p e r s o n s ’ n a m e i t i s c o n t e n d e d t h a t h e s h a ll n o t b e m e n ti o n e d h a v e
b e e n r e f e r r e d to a s M r X . S o t h a t – th a t [ i n te r v e n ti o n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : S o t h a t is t h e c o n t e n t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

B u t – b u t th e C h a ir w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d –

w o u ld n o t e th a t th e – t h e a ff id a v i t o f Mr X – l e t u s c a ll h i m M r X d o e s
a d m i t t h a t h e w a s a t s o m e p o i n t a t t h e h e l m o f a s p e c i f ic n a ti o n a l
d e p a r t m e n t. I t d o e s n o t s a y w h e t h e r M r X i s k n o w n t o t h e la t e d ir e c t o r
20

o f t h a t – a c e r t a i n c o m p a n y a n d t o a n o th e r i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n . F u r t h e r
M r X d o e s n o t s a y i n h is s t a t e m e n t w h e th e r w h il s t h e w a s a t th e h e l m a t
n o s t a g e w h e n h e w a s c h a i r i n g a m e e t in g – l e t u s c a ll i t a t e c h n ic a l
[i n d is t in c t] t h e r e w a s n e v e r a p r e s e n ta t i o n r e la t in g t o t h is – o f t h is
m a g n i t u d e r e l a ti n g t o a s b e s t o s i n t h e F r e e S t a t e .

T h e r e is a c o n te x t

w h y Mr X a c c o r d i n g t o Mr D u k w a n a i s p la c e d t h e r e a n d Mr D u k w a n a i s

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g o i n g t o e la b o r a t e t h a t a n d M r M o k o e n a w o u ld a l s o a t te s t t o t h e fa c t
t h a t i t w a s a n is s u e e v e n a t t h e p r e p a r a t i o n o f t h e s t a te m e n t t o s a y w h y
a r e s a y i n g t h is is M r X a n d w h y a r e y o u s a y in g t h i s i s Mr Z o r Y a n d a l l
o f t h o s e n a m e s a s a r t ic u l a te d in t h e s t a te m e n t o f M r D u k w a n a a r e
explained.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l th e – i t m a y b e t h a t s o m e p e o p l e w h o m a y b e

m e n ti o n e d h a v e n o t m a d e th e s a m e o ff e r t h a t M r H e l le n s c l i e n t h a s
m a d e a n d I – a n d c o m m i t t e d to c o o p e r a ti o n a n d s o o n . B u t i t s e e m s t o
m e t h a t f u r th e r e n g a g e m e n t w i t h h i m i n c l u d i n g a n i n t e r v ie w o f M r
10

H e ll e n s ’ c l ie n t m i g h t w e l l r e v e a l – h e m ig h t b e a s k e d w e r e y o u a t t h a t
m e e ti n g ?

Yo u h a v e j u s t m e n t i o n e d a c e r t a i n m e e ti n g .

He might say

y e s I w a s a t t h a t m e e ti n g . T h a t m a y o r m a y n o t f o r ti fy th e b e li e f t h a t
Mr Dukwana may be having that the person referred to by certain
in it i a ls i n th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i s Mr H e l l e n s ’ c l ie n t . S o m y in c l in a ti o n i s
t h e r e is n o h a r m a n d th e r e m a y b e b e n e f i t in t h a t fu r t h e r e n g a g e m e n t
a n d a t a c e r ta in s t a g e M r D u k w a n a c a n c o m e b a c k a n d s a y w e l l t h e
f u r th e r

engagement

and

the

fu r t h e r

i n v e s ti g a ti o n s

have

a c t u a l ly

f o r ti fi e d m e i n m y v i e w a n d c o m e b a c k a n d s a y I c a n r e a lly s u p p o r t w h y
I s a y t h is i s M r H e l le n s ’ c li e n t .
20

O r h e m ig h t s a y h a v i n g b e e n s h o w n

w h a t h a s b e e n u n e a r t h e d i n t h e fu r t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n o r e n g a g e m e n t I
d o n o t p e r s i s t i n s a y i n g t h o s e i n i ti a ls r e f e r t o s o a n d s o . S o i n o t h e r
w o r d s if th a t p a r t o f i d e n ti f ic a ti o n i s t o b e d e a lt w i t h la t e r t h e
c o m m i s s io n d o e s n o t lo s e a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e i t w il l s t il l b e d e a l t w i t h .
A n d it m a y b e t h a t t h e fu r t h e r e n g a g e m e n t w i ll c o n f ir m o r c o n f ir m t h a t
h e w a s r ig h t i n h is – h e is r ig h t i n h i s b e l i e f o r i t m i g h t s h o w t h a t m a y b e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h e r e a r e n o p r o p e r g r o u n d s t o g iv e t h a t i d e n t i fic a ti o n .

That is my –

t h a t i s my in c l in a ti o n .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : C h a ir i f t h a t is [ in t e r v e n t i o n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : I f t h a t i s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s i n c li n a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : T h e n I w o u l d p r o p o s e t h a t le t it b e e x te n d e d
to all persons who appear in the statement of Mr Dukwana in the
a b b r e v ia t e d v e r s i o n . B e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e m a r e h e r e a n d th e y a r e n o t
10

m a k i n g a n y s o n g a b o u t th e a b b r e v i a t e d v e r s io n . A ll w h a t t h e y h a v e –
t h e y p l a c e t h e ms e lv e s o n t h e r e c o r d t o s a y w e a r e fo r c e r t a i n p e r s o n s .
S o if t h a t is t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s i n c li n a t i o n I w i ll p r o p o s e t h a t i t b e
e x t e n d e d t o a ll p e r s o n e v e n i f it m e a n s t h a t t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s w h e r e
t h o s e a b b r e v i a t e d n a m e s a p p e a r a r e b la c k e d o u t o r f o r th e – f o r t h e
s a k e o f fa ir n e s s t h e y a r e r e tr a c t e d s o t h a t t h e y a r e to b e p l a c e d a t a
la t e r s t a g e w h e n M r D u k w a n a c o m e s – c o m e s b a c k . I d o n o t k n o w if M r
Mokoena disagree or agrees.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M o k o e n a y o u s a i d M r D u k w a n a y o u m e a n t Mr

M o k o e n a I th i n k .
20

A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : N o , n o , n o I k n o w M r [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u l o o k e d a t M r M o k o e n a a n d s a i d D u k w a n a .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : I t i s a v o ic e fr o m b e h in d in f a c t I a m h a p p y
t h a t Mr H e ll e n s i s v e r y h a p p y w i t h m y p r o p o s a ls a n d h e is g o in g to
c o m e a n d a g r e e w i th e v e r y t h i n g t h a t I h a v e s a i d .
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 51 of 134

Thank you

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b e fo r e y o u s i t n o t h e – t h e p o s it i o n is t h a t a s – a t
le a s t a t th is s t a g e I h a v e o n ly b e e n i n f o r m e d o f Mr H e ll e n s c l i e n t ’s
o b j e c ti o n . N o o n e e ls e h a s e x p r e s s e d a n y o b j e c t io n . D i ff e r e n t p e o p l e
t a k e d i ff e r e n t a p p r o a c h e s to i s s u e s . A n o t h e r p e r s o n m i g h t s a y l o o k a s
lo n g a s I a m g o in g t o e n d u p g e t t in g a c h a n c e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r
D u k w a n a a b o u t w h a t h e w a n t s t o s a y a b o u t m e I w ill – i t is fi n e I w ill
d e a l w i th h i m i n t h a t w a y. O r I w il l g iv e e v id e n c e a n d – a n d i t is f in e l e t
u s p r o c e e d y o u k n o w b u t s o m e b o d y e l s e m ig h t s a y – m i g h t ta k e t h e
a tt i tu d e t h a t M r H e ll e n s h a s ta k e n . B u t h a v in g s a i d th a t i f Mr D u k w a n a
10

f e e ls t h a t h e w o u l d r a t h e r n o t p r o c e e d to m e n ti o n c e r t a i n n a m e s a t t h is
s t a g e b e c a u s e h e fe e ls t h e r e m a y b e a n e e d f o r f u r t h e r e n g a g e m e n t s in
t h e s a m e w a y a s i n r e g a r d to M r H e l le n s ’ c li e n t . Th a t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t
h e m i g h t n e e d t o r a i s e w i th M r M o k o e n a a n d o f c o u r s e y o u – y o u w o u l d
b e t h e r e a n d t h e n w e t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e .

But as I say some people

w o u ld h a v e d i ff e r e n t a p p r o a c h e s t o i s s u e s a n d j u s t b e c a u s e I h a v e a
p a r t ic u l a r

in c li n a ti o n

in

regard

to

Mr

H e ll e n s ’

client

does

not

n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n i t w o u ld b e th e s a m e i n c li n a t i o n t o o th e r s . B u t I d o
n o t k n o w e a c h o n e w o u ld n e e d t o b e – I w o u ld n e e d t o b e i n f o r m e d o f
h o w – I m e a n f o r e x a m p l e w i th r e g a r d t o M r H e l l e n s c l ie n t i t is in i ti a l s
20

t h a t a r e th e r e a n d M r D u k w a n a s a y s in e ffe c t I b e l i e v e t h o s e i n it i a ls
r e p r e s e n t s o a n d s o . B u t I t h i n k I h a v e s e e n i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n s o m e
n a m e s t h a t a r e g iv e n i n fu ll y o u k n o w. I m a y b e m is t a k e n . S o – s o i t
m a y d i ff e r. S o – b u t – b u t I a m s u r e – I a m s u r e i f t h e y a r e h e r e t h e y
w o u ld b e a b l e t o s p e a k f o r th e m s e lv e s b u t t o th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u m i g h t
s a y o n b e h a l f o f Mr D u k w a n a y o u w o u ld p r e fe r t h a t h e d o e s n o t m e n ti o n

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c e r t a i n n a m e s I w o u ld a ll o w y o u a n d M r M o k o e n a t o d i s c u s s t h a t a n d
then we take it from there.
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : I n t h a t r e g a r d C h a ir I th in k w e w i ll h a v e to
t a k e i n s tr u c ti o n s a ls o to M r D u k w a n a – fr o m M r D u k w a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o t h a t is i n o r d e r.
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : A n d i t w o u ld – i t w o u l d m e a n [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : A s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t w o u l d b e fi t ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t w o u l d – t h a t w o u ld b e f in e .
10

A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

I think Mr – I do not know if I saw Mr

H e ll e n s w a n ti n g t o s t a n d u p .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

J u s t m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d h a s g o n e v e r y f a r –

s a i l e d v e r y c l o s e to t h e w i n d o f r e v e a li n g w h a t h e s h o u ld n o t b u t h a v in g
s a i d t h a t w e a r e fu ll y i n a c c o r d w i t h t h e i n c li n a t i o n i n ti m a t e d b y y o u S ir.
I think PM he agrees.

W e w o u l d j u s t a s k f o r fo r m a l it y s a k e a n d

p r o c e d u r a l s a k e i f th e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t is a n a ff id a v i t t h a t th e
c o m m i s s io n w a n ts t o p u t t o u s u n d e r R u l e 3 . 3 t h e y m u s t d e c i d e t o d o
t h a t a n d s e c o n d ly if t h e y w a n t t o s e e o u r c li e n t t h e n w e m u s t j u s t m a k e
20

an arrangement.

A n d t h e n l a s tl y i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th y o u r – y o u r

in c li n a ti o n i t is o b v i o u s l y n o t o n ly t h e n a m e o f my c li e n t b u t t h e
d e s i g n a t io n w h ic h g o e s w i t h i t b e c a u s e t h a t i d e n ti f ie s h i m . S o I d o n o t
h a v e t o s a y d o n o t s a y Z o n d o b u t y o u c a n s a y th e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e
Z o n d o C o m m is s i o n w e ll th a t w o u ld b e d e f e a t in g . S o it i s fi v e – 5 2 . 3 . 1
it is t h a t e n t ir e d e s c r i p ti o n b u t a p a r t fr o m t h a t w e a r e i n a c c o r d a n c e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
w i t h y o u r i n d ic a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a ir a l l t h i s d o e s v i o le n c e to m y

p r e p a r a ti o n b u t i t is f in e w e w i ll a d j u s t a c c o r d i n g ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

The only things that we should be

c a u ti o u s n o t t o i n v i te o b j e c t io n s w h i c h w e r e n o t th e r e b e f o r e .

The

o b j e c ti o n s th a t w e h a v e f o r m u l a t e d a r e t h e o n e s f o r t h e c li e n t o f Mr
H e ll e n s a n d w e h a v e t h e m o n p a p e r. I d o n o t h a v e a n y o t h e r o b j e c t i o n s
10

a n d w e h a v e i n d ic a te d th a t th e R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e r e d i s p a t c h e d t i m e o u s ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

A n d i f th e r e w a s a n y p a r ty t h a t w a s

w i s h in g to r e a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e c o u ld h a v e d o n e s o [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON: They would have done so.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o f o r n o w I a m c o m f o r ta b le t h a t w e c a n
20

le a d t h e e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

W i t h s i m p ly w i t h o u t r e f e r e n c e to M r

H e ll e n s c li e n t ’s n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C li e n t y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

E v e n i f h e m a y v e n t il a te a s to w h y h e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
s a y s t h e r e b u t w e c a n d e fi n i t e l y m a k e s u r e th a t w e d o n o t s a y t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M e n ti o n th e n a m e a n d t h e d e s i g n a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : C h a ir t h e r e is ju s t o n e m o r e t h i n g . P e r h a p s i f I
d i d n o t m a k e my s e l f c le a r.

I f y o u u s e t h e i n i t ia ls in t h e to t a l c o n t e x t

t h a t m i g h t id e n ti fy t h e p e r s o n s o i t s h o u ld b e n o t t h e i n i t ia ls a n d n o t t h e
n a m e a n d n o t t h e d e s ig n a ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll a s I r e c a l l t h e d o c u m e n t t o w h ic h M r D u k w a n a

r e fe r s b e a r s c e r t a i n i n it i a ls .
ADV MIKE HELLENS: It does.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w o n t h e fa c e o f i t I d o n o t s e e a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i t h
– w i t h Mr D u k w a n a s a y i n g t h a t d o c u m e n t i n – o n t h a t p a r t m e n ti o n s
t h e s e in i ti a l s a n d s t o p p i n g t h e r e .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : P e r h a p s t h a t is th e o n ly p r a c ti c a l w a y o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a – y e s . Ye s .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : As t h e c o m m i s s i o n p l e a s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Th a n k y o u . I t h i n k c o u n s e l f o r M r D u k w a n a
20

m i g h t b e w is h i n g t o h a v e s o m e d is c u s s i o n w i t h y o u M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To t a k e i n s t r u c t io n s . Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e a t t w e n ty - t w o /t w e n t y - th r e e m i n u te s p a s t

t w e lv e . M a y b e y o u d o n o t n e e d m o r e t h a n fi v e / t e n m i n u t e s ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
around.

O r C h a ir w e c a n d o i t t h e o t h e r w a y

W e c a n t a k e th e e a r ly l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t a n d c o m e b a c k a t

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
h a l f p a s t t w e lv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I th o u g h t o f t h a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I n s t e a d o f [ i n te r v e n ti o n ]
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I a m t h i n k i n g t h a t y o u p r o b a b ly w o u l d n o t n e e d

m o r e t h a n t e n m in u t e s a n d t h e n m a y b e – if w e – i f w e t a k e a b o u t t e n
m i n u t e s m a y b e t h e n w e c o u l d h a v e a b o u t t w e n ty / t w e n ty - f iv e m i n u te s
b e f o r e th e l u n c h a n d [ in t e r v e n ti o n ]
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And we can proceed.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d w e c o u ld t a k e M r D u k w a n a th r o u g h c e r ta in

p o r t i o n a n d t h e n w e t a k e l u n c h a t t h e n o r m a l ti m e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I a m a t y o u r h a n d s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y l e t u s – l e t u s – w e w i ll a d jo u r n n o w a n d
r e s u m e a t t w e n ty - f iv e to o n e . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a i r m a y b e i t w il l b e o p p o r t u n e to

a ffo r d m y le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e to p u t th e in s t r u c t io n s o f th e c li e n t a n d w e
w i ll i n e i t h e r w a y t h a t th e y d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y t o p r o c e e d w i th th e
20

m a t t e r. W e a r e r e a d y to d o s o .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: W e h a v e c o n s u lt e d w it h Mr D u k w a n a . H e s a y s
w e m u s t p l a c e th is o n r e c o r d t h a t t h e r e a r e o t h e r w it n e s s e s w h o c a m e

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b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n .

Th e y - t h e y m e n ti o n e d c e r t a i n n a m e s o f

p e r s o n s w h o p r i o r t o c o m e - t o c o m i n g h e r e t o t e s ti fy a n d h e s e e s
n o t h i n g r e a ll y s p e c i a l a b o u t c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s o r a w it n e s s w h y t h e y w h y h e s h o u ld b e t r e a te d d i ff e r e n t ly.
H e m a k e s r e f e r e n c e o f t h e f a c t th a t th e f o r me r P r e s id e n t w a s
h e r e . H e m a d e m e n ti o n t h a t r e ti r e d G e n e r a l S i p h i w e N y a n d a w a s a s p y
a n d th a t p r o c e s s e s o u t t h e r e a r e v e n til a t e d i n t h e c o u r t s .

Why this

p a r t ic u l a r o n e - w h y th is p a r ti c u l a r o n e s h o u l d n o t b e tr e a te d o r b e
g iv e n th e s a m e a t t i tu d e .
10

I n a d d i ti o n t o th a t h e s a y s i n a n y c a s e t h e r e h a s b e e n - th e
lis t is o u t o f p e r s o n s i m p li c a t e d a n d a ll t h e ir n a m e s w e r e r e a d o u t a n d
f o r tu n a te - u n f o r tu n a te ly t h e r e h a s a ls o b e e n a s li p o f t h e t o n g u e a n d
w e l iv e i n a t e c h n o lo g ic a l w o r l d . I t n o w b e c o m e s m u t e . T h e i d e n ti t y o f
M r X b e c o m e s m u te b e c a u s e it w i ll b e h e a d l in e n e w s in a n y c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hang - hang on one second. I note that as you place
w h a t y o u a r e p l a c i n g o n r e c o r d Mr H e ll e n s is n o l o n g e r h e r e .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

20

N o w i t - i t - w e a r e in y o u r h a n d s C h a ir w i th

r e g a r d t o th a t . P e r h a p s i t is a d is c u s s io n t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e to h a v e
w i t h Mr H e l le n s t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e l e g a l te a m o f th e C o m m is s i o n t o s a y
in th e li g h t o f t h is w h a t a r e w e d o i n g b e c a u s e I c a n t e l l y o u n o w
C h a ir p e r s o n i t m a y b e n o w tr e n d in g o n th e s o c i a l n e tw o r k a s to w h o i s
t h is M r X a n d w h y t h e i d e n ti ty o f M r X is b e i n g c o n c e a l e d b y t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a n d i t p la c e s t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n a s e r i o u s p r e d ic a m e n t a s

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t o h o w is i t g o in g t o d e a l w i t h o th e r w it n e s s e s m o v i n g f o r w a r d b e c a u s e
t h e i n c li n a ti o n o f th e C h a i r p e r s o n c e r ta in ly o p e n s f lo o d g a t e s o f o th e r
w i t n e s s e s w a n ti n g t o g o t h e s i m il a r r o u t e t h a t M r H e ll e n s c l ie n t h a s has advanced.
T h i s - I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e C o m m is s i o n a s w e ll i s a l s o i n c li n e d
t o h e a r e v i d e n c e o f M r D u k w a n a in p ie c e m e a l f a s h i o n a n d I d o u b t t h a t
w i ll b e - I d o u b t i t w i ll b e d e s ir a b l e t h a t e v id e n c e o f Mr D u k w a n a is - i s
h e a r d o n a p e a c e f u l - o n a p i e c e m e a l b a s is . P e r h a p s C h a ir i t w ill b e
p r u d e n t a s Mr M o k o e n a p r o p o s e d e a r li e r t h a t l e t u s ta k e a n e x t e n d e d
10

lu n c h a n d th e n h e M r M o k o e n a w o u l d c o n t a c t Mr H e l le n s t o r e q u e s t h i m
t o d o a U - tu r n a n d f a il in g w h ic h w e m a y h a v e to m e e t l a te r w i t h
M r H e l l e n s a n d - a n d Mr D a y a l t o - to e x p l o r e t h is m a t te r b e c a u s e
o th e r w i s e t h e C o m m i s s i o n is g o i n g to b e s a i d t o b e a m o m m y i s h i n a
sense that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll - w e l l l e t u s - l e t u s lo o k a t t h is . W e ll o n e y o u
s a y y o u r c l ie n t m e n ti o n s t h e f a c t t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t m e n t io n e d
certain names.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

C o m m i s s i o n ’s

N o w t h e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t h a d n o t f u r n is h e d t h e

le g a l

team

or

the

C o m m i s s io n

with

a

s t a te m e n t

beforehand …
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To e n a b l e t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o k n o w w h a t h e w a s g o i n g
t o s a y a n d t h e n t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n a s t o w h a t s h o u ld b e d o n e a n d to
h a v e i ts o r c o p ie s s e n t o r n o ti c e s s e n t to c e r t a i n p e r s o n s t h a t h e m i g h t

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h a v e in t e n d e d t o m e n ti o n . T h a t is t h e - t h e f ir s t p o i n t .
T h e s e c o n d p o i n t I th i n k w o u ld b e t h a t g e n e r a l ly s p e a k in g i t
w o u ld b e r e a s o n a b l e t o e x p e c t t h a t w h e r e i n fo r m a t i o n th a t m i g h t a s s is t
t h e C o m m is s i o n is r e a d ily a v a i l a b le t h a t it b e l o o k e d a t s o th a t i t i s
t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t b e f o r e a w it n e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t is fi n a l is e d o r b e f o r e a
w i t n e s s g iv e s e v id e n c e .
O f c o u r s e i t d e p e n d s w h a t t h e i n f o r m a t io n i s a n d o n e h a s g o t
t o b e a r i n m in d t h a t a w i tn e s s d o e s n o t - t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e
w i t n e s s h a s d o e s n o t h a v e t o b e 1 0 0 p e r c e n t c o r r e c t.
10

A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. W e - b u t i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t t o s e e t h a t
w h e r e th e r e w a s a w a r e n e s s t h a t c e r t a i n i n fo r m a t i o n c o u l d b e c h e c k e d
w i t h r e l a ti v e e a s e t h a t - t h a t t h a t c o u l d b e c h e c k e d f ir s t .

Of course

t h e n t h e r e is t h e p o i n t w h ic h I m a d e e a r l i e r o n t h a t d i ff e r e n t p e r s o n s d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e t a k e d i ff e r e n t - a d o p t d i ff e r e n t a t t it u d e s o r a p p r o a c h e s
t o d i ffe r e n t is s u e s .
A f e w w e e k s a g o M r o r Ms J i b a ’s c o u n s e l c a m e h e r e w h e n
M r N x a s a n a w a s g o i n g t o g iv e e v id e n c e a n d I h e a r d a r g u m e n t a n d a s a
r e s u l t o f t h e a r g u m e n t a n d m y r e s p o n s e t o i t c e r t a i n a r r a n g e m e n ts w e r e
20

m a d e a n d - a n d M r N x a s a n a w a s a b l e t o c o n t i n u e w i t h h is e v i d e n c e
w i t h o u t d e a l i n g w it h c e r t a i n a s p e c t s o f i t a n d h e s u b s e q u e n tly c a m e
b a c k I t h i n k l a s t w e e k o r th e w e e k b e f o r e a n d w a s a b l e t o c o n t i n u e w i th
h is e v i d e n c e w i t h n o o b je c ti o n a t a ll fr o m M s J i b a a n d w i th o u t a s I
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n e v e n a n a p p l ic a t i o n fr o m M s J i b a f o r l e a v e t o
c r o s s - e x a m in e h i m .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e o b j e c ti o n h a d fa ll e n a w a y. Mr N x a s a n a is s t il l
g o i n g - h a s n o t fi n is h e d .
evidence.

W il l - h e w i ll s ti ll c o m e b a c k a n d f in is h h is

S o a s I s a y o n e k e e p s o n t r y i n g t o s tr ik e a b a la n c e .

One

d o e s n o t w a n t a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e j u s t b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y o b je c t s t o
s o m e t h i n g th e n e v e r y t h i n g s to p s b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e o n e d o e s n o t
w a n t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e p e o p le b e l i e v e t h a t e v e n if y o u h a v e - y o u
o b j e c t y o u w il l j u s t b e d is m is s e d b e c a u s e t h e C o m m i s s io n w a n ts t o
c o n ti n u e .
10

A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e tr i e s t o s tr i k e a b a l a n c e a n d - a n d o n e o f t h e

f a c to r s a s I m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r o n is to s a y o k a y i f w e a ll o w t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty t o h a v e t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s o r t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n in t e r v ie w M r X a n d h e t e n d e r s c e r t a i n i n fo r m a ti o n a n d h is
b a n k a c c o u n t a n d h e is p r e p a r e d t o a n s w e r w h a t e v e r q u e s ti o n s h e m a y
be asked.
T h a t is w h a t Mr H e ll e n s s a i d if I r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly.

I f th a t

p r o c e s s h a s b e e n d o n e w e m a y s ti ll c o m e b a c k a n d b e a b l e to s a y n o
t h a t i s f i n e . L e t - l e t Mr D u k w a n a m e n t i o n w h a t h e b e li e v e s t h e in i ti a l s
20

represent and it maybe that at that stage they might say look we - we
h a v e - w e h a v e b e e n h e a r d a n d w e w il l s ti l l g e t a c h a n c e t o c h a ll e n g e .
T h a t - th a t i s fi n e .

S o o n e tr ie s to s tr i k e a b a l a n c e .

Of

c o u r s e d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e w il l s tr i k e a b a la n c e i n d i ffe r e n t p l a c e s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o th a t - t h a t - s o t h a t is - th a t is - t h a t is t h e -

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t h a t i s t h e a t l e a s t o n e o f t h e d i s ti n g u i s h i n g f a c t o r s r e la t in g to th e
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t i s t h a t w e - w e d i d n o t h a v e h is s t a t e m e n t . It w a s …
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l c a m e a s a s u r p r is e .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C h a ir I s e e th a t M r X …
CHAIRPERSON: Counsel.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o u n s e l ( in t e r v e n e s ) …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r t h a n M r H e l le n s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: O t h e r t h a n h e - h e is p r e s e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C e r ta in ly th e y w e r e l is t e n i n g to th e n e w s a n d
t h a t i s w h y t h e y - t h e y d e e m i t f i t t o d o a U - t u r n b u t C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: M r D u k w a n a te ll s u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h a t M r X a c t u a ll y i n a n e w s p a p e r e d i ti o n la s t
y e a r h e a c t u a lly d is p u t e d t h a t h e is in d e e d M r X .

20

So he says in any

c a s e - h e s a y s i n a n y c a s e e v e n i f h e M r X is r e f e r r e d to a s M r X a
c o n te x t i s s t il l o u t t h e r e i n th e p u b l ic d o m a in b u t a s p r o p o s e d e a r li e r
C h a ir p e r s o n is n o w t h a t Mr H e l le n s is h e r e p e r h a p s th a t e x t e n d e d l u n c h
s h o u l d b e - s h o u ld b e - s h o u l d b e p r o p o s e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: A n d t h e n w e - w e f a v o u r Mr H e l le n s a n d h i s -

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a n d th e t e a m o f M r X w i th w h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I a m n o t s u r e w h a t Mr - w h a t p r e j u d ic e

M r D u k w a n a w il l s u ff e r i f w e g o a l o n g w i t h m y i n c l i n a t io n b e c a u s e it i s
a q u e s ti o n o f i f h e d o e s n o t m e n ti o n to d a y h e m i g h t s ti ll b e a b le t o
m e n ti o n a t a l a t e r s t a g e w h a t h e b e l ie v e s t h o s e in i ti a l s r e p r e s e n t.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: B u t C h a i r p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

I t w il l b e p r u d e n t th a t th e - th e l e g a l te a m o f

M r X is p r e s e n t s o t h a t i n t h e e v e n t t h e y w is h t o c h a l l e n g e h i s e v id e n c e
10

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h e y d o s o b e c a u s e t h e is s u e o f r e p u t a ti o n w e
a r e t o l d fr o m M r H e l l e n s t h a t i t is a t is s u e h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t th e y h a v e n o p r o b l e m . T h e y a r e h a p p y w i th
my

in c l in a ti o n .

Mr Mokoena

a c c e p ts

that

i n c li n a ti o n

and

as

I

u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n y o u a r e n o t to t a l ly a g a in s t i t b u t y o u …
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C e r t a in ly.
CHAIRPERSON: But you - you have certain concerns.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C e r t a in ly C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o , s o b u t I s e e th a t I t h i n k y o u r i n s tr u c ti n g

a tt o r n e y s e e ms t o w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t to b r i n g t h is t o a c l o s e .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C a n - c a n I p l e a s e t a k e i n s tr u c t io n s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e i n s tr u c t i o n s b u t I w a n t t o b r i n g it t o a c l o s e , ja .

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A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

C h a ir

I

understand

th a t

the

c li e n t

is

a m e n d a b l e to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e in c li n a ti o n .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: To th e i n c l i n a t io n a n d w e m u s t p r o c e e d a s - a s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s p r e v i o u s ly i n d ic a t e d .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

N o th a t is fi n e .

I - I t a k e i t t h a t M r H e ll e n s

d o e s n o t h a v e t o s a y a n y th i n g in t h e li g h t o f t h a t .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Chair if you …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G r a n t M r H e l le n s ti m e w e w il l le a v e h e r e
a t 6 o ’ c lo c k . I t h i n k h e g o e s w i t h t h e i n c li n a t io n Mr C h a ir. I a m s u r e
of it.
CHAIRPERSON:

I - I t h i n k M r H e ll e n s y o u d o n o t h a v e r e a l ly to s a y

a n y th in g b e c a u s e …
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : I m is s e d s o m e o f i t C h a ir b u t i f i t a s w a s - i f it
as it was when I left …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV MIKE HELLENS: When you adjourned.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : T h e n I h a v e n o t h i n g to s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : As s h o r tl y a s p o s s i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s a s i t w a s w h e n w e a d jo u r n e d .

Page 63 of 134

O k a y.

Al r i g h t .

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
Thank you.

T h a n k y o u e v e r y - t o e v e r y b o d y.

O k a y.

Mr M o k o e n a

s h o u l d w e g e t th e w i t n e s s … ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Chair ma y the witness be sworn in.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s w o r n i n , ja . O k a y.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Mx o lis i D u k w a n a .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o .
REGISTRAR:
10

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I d o n o t k n o w. I t l o o k s l ik e t h e …
R E G I S T R A R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , i t i s w o r k i n g n o w.

O k a y.

I t h i n k y o u m u s t g iv e

t h a t a n s w e r - t h a t la s t a n s w e r a g a i n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s w e a r - d o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b in d in g

o n y o u r c o n s c ie n c e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s I d o .
20

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o h e l p m e G o d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( d u ly s w o r n , s t a t e s )
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Dukwana (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t b e f o r e Mr M o k o e n a . M r D u k w a n a t h a n k y o u v e r y
m u c h f o r c o m in g b a c k to c o n ti n u e t o g iv e e v id e n c e i n th e C o m m i s s i o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : My p l e a s u r e s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u a n d M r M o k o e n a y o u w ill o b v i o u s ly b e

a l iv e t o th e r e l e v a n t p a r ts o f - o f h is e v id e n c e a n d y o u w i ll …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I - I h a v e p u t r e d s ti c k e r s w h e r e I a m n o t
s u p p o s e d to g o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a w e h a v e p la c e d a f il e

b e f o r e y o u a n d i f y o u o p e n t h a t f il e y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t h a s b e e n
s u b d iv id e d i n to s ix f o l d e r s . D o y o u h a v e t h a t fi l e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s I d o .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J a a n d i f y o u g o t h r o u g h - t h e r e is a n

in d e x i n fr o n t o f i t w h ic h w i ll a s s is t y o u t o n a v i g a t e y o u k n o w th r o u g h
t h e fil e .

H o w e v e r f o r th e p u r p o s e o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y t o d a y w e w i ll b e

g o i n g t o f o l d e r n u m b e r s i x a n d if I m a y r e q u e s t y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 1 o f
20

t h a t d o c u m e n t . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e i d e n t if y t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r u s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e w h a t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C o u l d y o u p l e a s e id e n ti fy - w h a t i s t h a t
document that you see on page 1? The pages are numbered …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ev id e n c e o f M x o lis i D u k w a n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o b u t I t h i n k y o u a r e lo o k i n g a t

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h e c o v e r p a g e . Tu r n a g a in , y e s . T h e r e is a d o c u m e n t. W h a t is th a t
document?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is I t h e u n d e r s ig n e d M x o l is i D u k w a n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s - i t is y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is a s t a t e m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w l e t u s g o t o p a g e 3 4 o f th a t

d o c u m e n t a n d c o u l d y o u p l e a s e i d e n t if y t h e s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r i n g t h e r e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is m in e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h is s t a t e m e n t i t
10

in a f o r m o f a n a ffi d a v it ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I d o .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d d o y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o n t e n ts o f
t h a t s t a te m e n t to b e t r u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I d o .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

were

a ffi d a v i t

presented

with

an

N o w in y o u r p r e p a r a t io n a ls o y o u
that

was

deposed

to

by

Mr Iqbal Sharma. Am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d th e n i f y o u m a y t u r n p le a s e to fo l d e r
20

n u m b e r f iv e w o u l d th a t b e t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r I q b a l S h a r m a w h i c h y o u
h a d th e o p p o r t u n i ty to p e r u s e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s i t is .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Now let us go back then to your

s t a te m e n t . W e w i ll i n d u e c o u r s e c o m e t o t h a t s ta t e m e n t o f Mr S h a r m a .
If I may refer you to page 3.

Page 66 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry Mr Mokoena.

I th i n k - s h o u l d - is t h e r e

s o m e t h i n g y o u s h o u l d t e l l m e a b o u t p a g i n a t io n h e r e ?

N o r m a lly w e -

w i t h t h e s e b u n d le s t h e p a g in a ti o n is fr o m b e g in n in g t o e n d b u t I s e e
t h a t th is m a y b e d i ffe r e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t - i t is d i ff e r e n t C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e - t h e
d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u a r e h a v i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h a r e a t th e b e g i n n i n g o f th e fi le …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H a v e a lr e a d y b e e n y o u k n o w a d m i t t e d a s
evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O n - o n a p a r ti c u la r s e t o f n u m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o w e d o n o t w a n t to d i s tu r b t h a t

p a g in a ti o n t h a t e x is ts fr o m h i s i n i t ia l e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t i s w h y w e k e p t i t th a t a s th e w a y i t
is b u t if y o u g o t o E X H I B I T 5 w e th e n c r e a te d i t a s a s e p a r a t e b u n d le
20

a l t o g e t h e r w h i c h is o n f o l d e r n u m b e r s ix .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h a t is - t h a t i s w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . F o l d e r n u m b e r s ix C h a ir, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o f r o m f o ld e r n u m b e r s i x it is a d i ffe r e n t p a g i n a t i o n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t is a d i ff e r e n t p a g i n a t io n . I t g o e s w i t h
it s o w n p a g i n a t io n .

Page 67 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON: But it holds good for the balance of …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON: The pages?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b e f o r e f o l d e r s i x i t i s o n e p a g in a ti o n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a ft e r f o l d e r s i x i t is a d i ffe r e n t p a g i n a t i o n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D i ff e r e n t p a g i n a t i o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is - i t is c o m p le t e ? It is fr o m b e g i n n i n g t o e n d ?
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h a t s e c t io n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

As w e h a v e a ls o a l l u d e d t o i n o u r

opening address …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e n w e a r e i n t r o d u c i n g t h e d o c u m e n ts
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Now Mr Dukwana I was just about to

r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t .

Would I be correct that you

k n o w f r o m t h a t p a g e a n d o n w a r d s y o u a r e th e n r e a c ti n g to t h e
a v e r m e n ts a n d s t a t e m e n t s w h ic h a r e c o n t a i n e d i n th e a ffi d a v it o f
Mr Iqbal Sharma?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is tr u e s ir.

Page 68 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w in p a r a g r a p h 6 o f t h a t

s t a te m e n t y o u g iv e a b a c k g r o u n d a n d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u s t a t e t o th e
C h a ir a s f o ll o w s :
“ S h a r m a ’s s t a te m e n t w a s n o t in t e n d e d t o b e a n
a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s e x a m i n e m e b u t a n a t te m p t t o
r e s p o n d to t h e a l le g a ti o n I m a d e r e l a ti n g t o h i m .
N o t w it h s t a n d in g t h e s t a t u s o f S h a r m a ’s s ta t e m e n t a t
t h e C o m m i s s i o n I a m a d v is e d t h a t I n e e d to d e a l
with
10

the

relevant

matters

conversed

s t a te m e n t f u r th e r i n S h a r m a ’s a n n e x u r e s .

in

h is

There

a r e d o c u m e n t s t h a t I p u r p o r t e d ly s ig n e d a n d I w i ll
d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t t h e s i g n a t u r e a p p e n d e d i n th o s e
a n n e x u r e s h a v e b e e n fo r g e d . ”
A n d t h a t i s w h a t y o u a r e c o n v e y i n g t o t h e C h a ir. A m I c o r r e c t
as a means of a background?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w m a y y o u p r o c e e d i n y o u r o w n
w o r d s a n d s ta r t d e a l in g w i th S h a r m a ’s a ffi d a v i t fr o m y o u r o w n r e a c ti o n
with reference to paragraph 8.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr M o k o e n a . W e - w e a r e a t 1 o ’ c l o c k b u t
I w a s t h i n k in g m a y b e w e c o u l d g o u p to q u a r t e r p a s t a n d t h e n t a k e a n
adjournment but we may - we - we could adjourn and start and come
back at two.

I f w e a d jo u r n a t q u a r t e r p a s t w e w o u ld c o m e b a c k a t

quarter past two.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir M r Z u ti n i ( ? ) is v e r y h u n g r y.

Page 69 of 134

He

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
in d i c a t e s t o m e a n d s a y s n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e s a y s a d jo u r n n o w Mr C h a ir. S o I a m
n o r m a l ly a c r e a t u r e o f i n s tr u c t io n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir b u t w e m a y a d j o u r n n o w a n d c o m e
back at two.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y - m a y b e w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n a n d s o th a t h e c a n

s t a r t p r o p e r ly a ft e r l u n c h . O k a y. L e t u s - l e t u s d o t h a t . W e - w e t r y t o
10

s t a r t e a r l ie r. I t w a s n o t p o s s ib le . O k a y. W e w il l a d j o u r n a n d th e n w e
w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ c lo c k . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s p r o c e e d b u t b e f o r e w e d o th a t l e t ’s a d d r e s s t h e

q u e s t io n o f w h e t h e r w e w i ll s t o p a t f o u r o r l a te r, s e e i n g t h a t w e h a v e
lo s t q u i te s o m e ti m e t h is m o r n i n g .

M r M o k o e n a y o u a r e i n a b e t te r

p o s i ti o n to a s s e s s t h e s i t u a ti o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

M r C h a i r M r D u k w a n a i s s e t d o w n to

t e s ti fy t o d a y a n d t o m o r r o w, w e a ls o h a v e a v e r y s h o r t w i tn e s s th a t it is
a c o r r o b o r a t o r y w i t n e s s m o r e th a n a n y th in g e l s e , w e c a n d o e i t h e r t w o
t h i n g s C h a ir, w e c a n e i t h e r a d j o u r n a t f o u r o ’ c l o c k t o d a y a n d m a y b e
a tt e m p t to s t a r t e a r ly, a t n in e o ’c lo c k to m o r r o w, b e c a u s e a t le a s t I w il l
b e a b l e t o g a u g e a t fo u r o ’c l o c k a s t o h o w f a r w e a r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y m a y b e w e w i ll h e a r w h a t – m a y b e l e t u s

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
d e a l w it h i t a t f o u r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A t f o u r o ’c l o c k y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n w e w i ll s e e w h e t h e r w e a d d s o m e ti m e to d a y
o r w e s t a r t e a r ly to m o r r o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To m o r r o w, t h a t w i ll a s s is t j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr Dukwana just before the lunch

a d j o u r n m e n t I h a v e r e fe r r e d y o u t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h e r e y o u b e g i n to
r e a c t t o t h e a v e r m e n ts w h i c h a r e c o n t a i n e d i n M r I q b a l S h a r m a ’s
10

a ffi d a v i t . Yo u d o s o s t a r ti n g fr o m p a r a g r a p h e i g h t o n p a g e t h r e e o f y o u r
w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t , p l e a s e t a k e u s th r o u g h th e c o n t e n ts o f t h a t
p a r a g r a p h a n d w h a t y o u a r e c o n v e y i n g t o t h e C h a ir.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir M r S h a r m a , in h i s a ffi d a v i t in d i c a t e d

t h a t o n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f t h a t , t h a t I r e q u e s t e d h i m t o d r a f t l e t t e r s f o r – I
r e q u e s t e d h i m t o d r a f t th e s e l e t t e r s f o r m e a n d o f c o u r s e , i t i s n o t
c o r r e c t i t i s n o t t r u e b e c a u s e t h e o ffic e a ls o h a d le g a l a d v ic e s , w e ’r e
c a p a b le o f d o i n g th is ty p e o f w o r k b e s id e s a ls o t h a t o n e b e i n g a
t e a c h e r f o r a v e r y lo n g ti m e a n d o n e c o u ld n o t a s k a p e r s o n to d r a f t
y o u a n y l e t te r t h a t y o u w a n t t o d o e s p e c i a l ly w i th th e e x p e r t is e t h a t w e
20

h a d i n th e d is p o s a l i n t h e o ff ic e a n d t h e fa c t t h a t w e a r e n o t t a l k i n g
a b o u t a p e r s o n w h o is n o t k n o w l e d g e a b l e e s p e c i a l ly a b o u t t h e r u n n in g
o f – i n t h e P u b l ic S e c to r h e ’s a f o r m e r s e n io r e m p l o y e e o f a S t a t e
owned

company

and

h e ’s

w e ll

clued

with

the

P u b li c

Fi n a n c e

M a n a g e m e n t A c t o n e o f 1 9 9 9 a s a m e n d e d a n d h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Are you now talking about – who are you talking

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
a b o u t w h e n y o u s a y h e ’s w e l l c l u e d in w h a t e v e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I ’ m ta lk in g a b o u t t h e – o n p a g e f o u r n u m b e r

nine.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I’ d i n d ic a t e d h e r e – h e r e t h e p a g e e i g h t I

d e n y th e fa c t th a t h e s a i d I a s k e d h i m – I r e q u e s t e d h i m t o d r a f t
t h is … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u ’ r e t a lk i n g a b o u t M r S h a r m a , is t h a t r ig h t ?

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s M r S h a r m a .

Ye s o k a y t h a t ’s fi n e , I t h o u g h t I …

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e fa c t t h a t h e w a s a v e r y s e n i o r

e m p l o y e e a t o n e o f th e S t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n ie s , h e ’s k n o w l e d g e in a s
f a r a s t h e Ac t a n d t h e R e g u la t io n t h a t p e r t a i n to t h e k i n d o f w o r k , h e
s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n , I m e a n h e ’s m o r e c l u e d u p a n d h e ’s k n o w l e d g e f a r
exceeds mine.

B u t i t d o e s n o t e x p l a i n , w h y, i n h is v ie w g iv e n h is

p r o w e s s in t h e le g is l a ti v e fr o m w o r k , d i d h e fi n d it , y o u k n o w a
[i n d is t in c t] t o d e a l w it h m e a s t h e M E C , i n s t e a d o f d e a l in g w i t h t h e
A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t .

T h e q u e s ti o n is , w h y w o u l d a

p e r s o n p e r s i s t in d e a l i n g w i t h a P o l i tic i a n w h e n h e k n o w s th a t i n t e r m s
20

o f th e a d m in is tr a ti o n th e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld b e t h e o n e w h o
w o u ld d e a l w i th a l l th e s e m a t te r s . S o I t h i n k t h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t o n e
c o u l d c o n c l u d e i s t h a t i t fa ll s w it h in th e p r a c ti c e th a t h a s fa ll e n – th e
P u b l ic S e c to r i n t h e s e n s e t h a t y o u – o n c e y o u g e t h o l d o f t h e h e a d ,
d e s p i te t h e fa c t t h a t y o u w o u ld h e a r f r o m t i m e t o t i m e p o l i tic a l h e a d s o r
E x e c u t iv e s w i ll a l w a y s b e p r o u d s t a ti n g t h a t t h e y d o n ’ t s ig n a n y th i n g

Page 72 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h e , y o u k n o w a n d e v e r y t i m e p u t t in g th e o ffi c i a l s u n d e r t h e b u s b u t th e
f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h a t o n c e y o u h a v e a M E C o r t h e s e p o l i tic a l h e a d s
it is e a s y – o n c e y o u a r e f in is h e d w it h h i m , i t is e a s y f o r

y o u to g e t

w h a t y o u w a n t b e c a u s e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

What do you mean when you say

fi n i s h e d a b o u t h i m , I m e a n i t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I ’l l m a k e a n e x a m p le , I t h i n k w h a t h e w a s

d o i n g h e r e , h e b e l ie v e d i t w i ll b e e a s y f o r h i m t o g e t i n to t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a n d g e t w h a t h e w a n ts , i f h e w e r e t o
10

convince me to do

w h a t th e y w a n t e d m e t o d o a n d o n c e w e h a v e th e h e a r in g o f a P o li ti c i a n
in t h i s m a t te r i t w i ll b e e a s y to g o t o t h e o ffi c i a l s a n d I w o u l d f u r th e r, a s
w e g o , w h e n w e s t a r t w i th w h a t w e ’r e h e r e fo r, I w il l d e m o n s tr a t e w h y I
fi n d i t v e r y, v e r y d is t u r b i n g e v e r y ti m e t h a t m o s t c a p a b l e o ffic i a ls h a v e
f o u n d t h e m s e l v e s i n a p r e d i c a m e n t w h e r e t h e y a r e g i v e n in s tr u c ti o n s b y
t h e ir p o li ti c a l h e a d s a n d w h e n i t b e c o m e s h o t th e y a r e j u s t p u s h e d
u n d e r t h e b u s a n d t h e P o l i tic i a n s w i ll n o t t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty. S o I w i ll
d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t b u t I’ m j u s t s a y i n g t h i s w a s v e r y s i m p l e t h a t o n c e h e
a g r e e s it w i ll b e e a s y f o r h i m a n d i t i s f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t I t h in k i t w a s
a c l e a r in s tr u c ti o n fr o m M a g a s h u le a s I s a y i t w a s in f u r th e r a n c e o f

20

a d v a n c i n g t h e c o m m e r c i a l i n t e r e s ts o f t h e G u p t a ’s a t t h a t t i m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A r e y o u n o w a l ig n in g w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g

w i t h w h a t y o u s t a te d to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n in a p r e v i o u s t e s t i m o n y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

When we – at the Gupta compound?

Ye s .

Page 73 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I w a n t e d t o s a y, y o u k n o w w h e n I a s k e d y o u

w h o y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t , w h e n y o u t a l k e d a b o u t h i m h a v in g c e r t a i n
e x p e r t is e y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t i t w a s Mr S h a r m a , i t s e e m e d a l i tt l e o d d
t o r e f e r to h e ’s e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r tis e i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u
w e r e s a y in g y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e m a d e i t – h i m t o d o th e l e tt e r s f o r y o u ,
y o u u n d e r s ta n d .

W h a t o n e w o u ld e x p e c t i s s o m e th i n g a l o n g t h e l in e

t h a t , l o o k , I d i d n ’ t n e e d h i m b e c a u s e I h a d t h is c a p a c i ty, w h i c h y o u d i d
s a y, th e d e p a r t m e n t h a d t h e c a p a c i ty b u t m a y b e t o c o m p a r e a n d s h o w
t h a t w h a t e v e r e x p e r i e n c e o r e x p e r ti s e h e h a d r e a l ly d i d n ’ t m a tc h t h a t
10

w h ic h y o u h a d t h e r e f o r e y o u w o u ld h a v e n o r e a s o n t o n e e d h i m to d o
a n y th in g , I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h a t k i n d o f c o n f u s e d m e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C a n I h e lp t h e C h a ir p e r s o n fr o m t h a t

c o n fu s i o n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e p a g e e i g h t, y o u k n o w, t h e p a r a g r a p h

eight.
CHAIRPERSON:

Paragraph eight ja.

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

D e a ls w i t h th e d r a f t in g o f t h e l e t t e r s .

Ye s .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t is w h e r e I’ m s a y i n g I h a d t h is s k il ls i n

t h e o ffi c e s o I d id n o t n e e d h i m t o d o t h is .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fo r t h e d r a f ti n g .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

O n th e p a r a g r a p h n i n e I ’ m n o t d e a l i n g w i t h

t h e d r a ft i n g o f t h e – I’ m d e a l in g w i t h h i m k n o w in g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t’s a f o l lo w - u p – i t’s n o t a f o l lo w - u p o n e a r l ie r

Page 74 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
points.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o i t ’s n o t a f o l lo w - u p .

I t ’s a d i ffe r e n t p o in t .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s I’ m s a y i n g I ’ m r a is i n g th is m a t t e r th a t

f o r h i m t o b e d e a l in g w i t h m e h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t t h e b e s t p e r s o n
y o u s h o u l d g o to w o u l d b e t h e H O D n o t t h is , s o I ’ m j u s t s t a ti n g t h a t a s
a fact.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , s o e ff e c t iv e l y t h e p o i n t y o u m a k e a t p a r a g r a p h

n i n e is t o s a y, I’ v e d e a l t w i t h t h e q u e s t io n o f d r a f ti n g a n d th e c a p a c i ty
10

to draft, I say I had that the department had that I didn’t need him to
d r a f t l e t te r s fo r m e , th a t ’s o n e p o i n t b u t t h e n y o u s a y – i n e ff e c t w h a t
y o u ’r e s a y i n g o n h is o w n v e r s io n h e s o u g h t to d e a l w i t h m e a s M E C a n d
y e t b e c a u s e o f h i s k n o w le d g e o f t h e P F M A a n d t h e fa c t t h a t h e h a d
b e e n a s e n i o r e m p l o y e e o f a S t a te o w n e d c o m p a n y, h e s h o u l d k n o w
t h a t h e s h o u l d – I w a s n ’ t t h e p e r s o n h e s h o u ld h a v e d e a l t w i t h , m a y b e
h e s h o u l d h a v e d e a l t w i th th e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t, t h a t ’s th e p o in t
y o u ’r e m a k i n g , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s t h a t ’s t h e p o i n t .

B u t y o u m u s t s a y i f I d o n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o in t

y o u ’r e m a k i n g , d o I u n d e r s t a n d i t c o r r e c t ly ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d o , y o u d o n o w.

A lr ig h t , th a n k y o u , o k a y le t ’s p r o c e e d .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

May I now refer you to page –

p a r a g r a p h 1 0 … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r v o ic e h a s g o n e d o w n M r M o k o e n a a t l e a s t fr o m

Page 75 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
my side where I am.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

M r C h a i r it m i g h t b e t h e e ff e c ts o f

lu n c h , i f I m a y r e f e r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0 Mr D u k w a n a w h e r e y o u a r e
n o w r e f e r r in g t o a d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s A n n e x e d t o M r S h a r m a ’s a ff i d a v i t
a n d y o u ’r e m a k i n g c e r t a i n r e m a r k s a b o u t t h a t d o c u m e n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f y o u c h e c k t h i s s ta t e m e n t th a t w a s m a r k e d

IS1, the copy of a tender or special development of the Machabeng
lo c a l M u n ic i p a l i ty a n d w h a t is v e r y i n t e r e s t in g h e r e is , w h a t e v e r w a s
h a p p e n in g w it h t h e s p e c ia l p l a n n i n g f r a m e w o r k , d e v e l o p m e n t f r a m e w o r k
10

o f t h e M a c h a b e n g L o c a l M u n ic ip a l i ty h a d n o th in g t o d o w i th th e c o n c e p t
o f a n e w c i ty.

S o e v e n w h e n w e w e r e th in k i n g a b o u t t h i s a n d w h e n I

w e n t to t h e M u n ic i p a l i ty to p r e s e n t t h e id e a o f b u il d i n g a n e w c i ty,
s p e c i a lly a f t e r t h e 1 9 9 4 e l e c t io n s w h e r e w e w e r e s a y in g , f o r u s t o b e t o d o j u s ti c e t o t h e s p e c i a l s e t ti n g w e n e e d e d to b u i ld a c it y t h a t w o u l d
n o t h a v e t h e h a l l m a r k s o f th e o th e r c i t ie s t h a t w e r e b u il t b e fo r e 1 9 9 4
a n d I p r e s e n te d th is , w i t h o u t th e k n o w le d g e o f th e te n d e r t h a t t h e y h a d
is s u e d o u t a n d f o r h i m t o li n k t h i s is a c t u a l ly n o t c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o y o u a r e d is p u ti n g w h a t h e ’s s a y i n g i n

h is a n s w e r i n g a ff id a v i t i n li n e w i th t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I do.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , n o w y o u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o o n e

p e r s o n c a l l e d Ts h e p is o M a g a s h u l e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 11 , b e f o r e w e d e a l
w i t h t h o s e c o n t e n t s c o u l d y o u e x p l a in a s t o h o w d o y o u k n o w h i m a n d
who is he?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ts h e p is o M a g a s h u l e is th e s o n t o t h e t h e n

Page 76 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
Premier

of the

Fr e e

S t a t e , Ac e

Magashule,

I

know

him

as

a

b u s i n e s s m a n b u t a ls o a s a s o n t o A c e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u m u s t j u s t i n d ic a te t h a t w h e n y o u s a y

b u s i n e s s m a n , y o u s e e m t o p u t th a t i n q u o t a t i o n m a r k s w it h y o u r h a n d ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t o r a m I m is r e a d i n g w h a t y o u a r e d o i n g w it h y o u r h a n d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir p e r s o n y o u s e e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

I s it s o m e t h i n g I s h o u ld ta k e n o t e o f o r is i t

something I shouldn’t take note of?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

outside

who

w il l y o u

N o , th e r e a r e n ’ t m a n y p e o p l e y o u ’d f in d

th a t

they

are

business

p e o p le ,

they

are

b u s i n e s s m e n b u t y o u w i ll o n ly s e e t h e ir l if e s ty l e s e t c e t e r a b u t y o u ’ r e
n o t li n k in g w i t h a n y b u s i n e s s w h a t s o e v e r a n d e v e n if y o u w e r e t o
c h e c k , y o u k n o w, y o u w o n ’ t f in d h i m l in k e d w it h a n y p e r s o n , I’ m n o t
t a lk in g a b o u t h i m s p e c if ic a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ju s t i n g e n e r a l.

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I ’ m ta lk in g a b o u t p e o p l e w h o g o a r o u n d ,

e v e r y b o d y w h ils t y o u g e t in t o a t e n d e r y o u j u s t t e n d e r a n d y o u ’r e n o t
d o i n g t h e w o r k t h a t y o u a r e te n d e r i n g fo r, y o u h a v e n o s k il ls , y o u g e t
t h e t e n d e r g iv e i t t o s o m e b o d y e ls e y o u g e t t h e m o n e y, y o u c a l l
20

y o u r s e l f a b u s in e s s m a n .

S o I ’ m u s i n g t h is t e r m a d v e r s e l y th a t n o t

e v e r y b o d y w h o c a ll s h i m s e l f a b u s i n e s s m a n is a b u s i n e s s m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o i n t h i s c a s e h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o h i m a s a

b u s i n e s s m a n a n d t h a t h e k n e w h i m a s a b u s in e s s m a n t h a t ’s w h a t , i n h is
s t a te m e n t h o w h e d e s c r i b e d h i m . S o I’ m j u s t s a y i n g , t r y i n g t o i n d i c a t e

Page 77 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
fr o m h is s t a t e m e n t a ls o h e w a s b e in g d is in g e n u o u s i n t h e s e n s e th a t
Ts h e p i s o M a g a s h u l e n o t o n ly a s a b u s in e s s m a n , h e k n e w h i m v e r y w e l l
b u t t o j u s t p u t i t – t o c r e a t e a s i t u a t io n t h a t th e y ’r e o n l y m e e t in g a s
businessmen is not correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n o t h e r w o r d s y o u ’r e s a y in g h e k n o w s m u c h m o r e

a b o u t h i m t h a n s i m p l y t h a t h e ’s a b u s i n e s s m a n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

He does.

He does.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w le t ’s d e a l w it h t h e s p e c if ic s o f th a t

p a r a g r a p h in o r d e r t o p l a c e y o u r e v id e n c e in i t s p r o p e r c o n t e x t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

H e b e li e v e d t h a t – h e s e n t h i m a n e m a i l

tr y i n g t o a s k h i m t o f a c i li t a t e s u c h a m e e ti n g a n d w h a t I ’ m ju s t s a y i n g is
t h e r e w a s n o th i n g w r o n g fo r h i m i f h e h a d a [ in d i s ti n c t ] i n t h e p r o p o s a l
t o a c t u a l ly a s k m e to m e e t m e a n d e x p la in w h a t h e w a n t e d t o d o .
T h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r t h e m t o g o t o h i m , if y o u c h e c k t h is – t h a t’s w h y
I u s e d th is , y o u k n o w … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e q u o t a ti o n m a r k s ?

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

Ye s j u s t t o d e m o n s tr a t e th a t h e r e it w a s

coming as a pressure, if you check what I said at paragraph nine and
t h is o n e , y o u w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d t h e c o n te n t o f w h a t I r a is e i n t h a t , t h a t
in t h is c a s e t h e i n t e n ti o n is t o , w h i ls t – p e o p le b e l ie v e w h i ls t y o u h a v e
Ts h e p i s o c o m i n g to m e o r Ts h e p is o a r r a n g e s s u c h a m e e t in g I w i ll t h e n
tr e m b l e a n d t h e n g r a n t t h e m s u c h .

So I’m just saying people who

m e n ti o n t h a t h e is th e s o n t o t h e Pr e m i e r a n d a l l t h o s e t h i n g s . H e w a s

Page 78 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
d o i n g t h a t d e li b e r a t e l y h o p i n g t h a t i t w i l l in f lu e n c e m e , b u t I ’ m j u s t
s a y in g t h e r e w a s n o n e e d fo r s u c h . I f h e w a n t t o m e e t m e , y o u c a n j u s t
a r r a n g e fo r s u c h a m e e t i n g a n d d o t h a t , t h a t ’s w h a t t h e c o n t e n t i o n o f
t h is p a r a g r a p h is a l l a b o u t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u m a y t h e n p r o c e e d t o c a n v a s

p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t M r D u k w a n a .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

F o r i n s t a n c e I w o u ld n o t h a v e m e t a p e r s o n

t o s p e a k a b o u t t h e la p s e d te n d e r a s th e y s t a t e h e r e t h a t o u r d i s c u s s io n
w a s th e id e a t h a t t h e y h a d – a n d t h e w a y f o r w a r d i n r e l a ti o n t o a n e w
10

c o n c e p t fo r th e l a p s e d t e n d e r. S o I d i d n o t h a v e a n y c l u e o f a n y o f t h e
t e n d e r s th a t t h e M u n ic i p a l it y h a d is s u e d a n d b e s i d e s t h a t , I ’ m s t a y in g
in W e lk o m a n d p e o p le w h o w e r e i n t h a t M u n i c i p a li t y a t t h e t i m e , th is
w a s d is c u s s e d , p e o p le d I k n o w v e r y w e l l a n d I w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w a r e
if t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g o f th is n a t u r e a n d a s I s a y I d o n ’ t th i n k h e r e t h e
p e r s o n w a s t e l li n g t h e tr u t h , h e w a s v e r y [ i n d is ti n c t ] w i t h th e tr u th
e s p e c i a l ly w i th r e g a r d to th e s ta t e m e n t h e r a is e d a b o u t t h e p u r p o s e o f
o u r m e e t in g th a t h e ’s n o t t e l li n g t h e tr u t h i n t h a t r e g a r d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s y o u a ls o r e a c t e d t o M r S h a r m a ’s

p a r a g r a p h 1 0 a n d y o u d is p u te t h e a s s e r ti o n s t h a t a r e c o n t a in e d th e r e i n ,
20

y o u d o s o i n p a r a g r a p h 11 , M r D u k w a n a .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h is a l s o , I’ m g o i n g t o p u t s o m e c o n t e x t a t a

la t e r s t a g e b u t i n t h i s c a s e t h e m o s t i m p o r ta n t t h i n g , C h a ir p e r s o n , is
t h a t w h e n y o u g e t th e k i n d o f i n f o r m a t i o n f o r in s t a n c e t h e d e s ir e w a s
c o m i n g fr o m u s a n d w e w a n t e d t o d o t h a t w e w a n t e d to b u i l d t h is , w e
w e r e e n g a g i n g p e o p le t h a t w e c o u l d h a v e a s p a r tn e r s .

Page 79 of 134

I t w il l b e my

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s th e M E C t o e n g a g e w i th t h e H O D t o r e a lly p r e p a r e a
s u b m is s io n t h a t w i ll g o t o E x c o b u t if th e y h a v e u n s o l ic it e d b i d s th e n
t h e y a r e fr e e to a p p r o a c h th e Pr e m i e r o r w o u ld c o m e t o t h e o ff ic e a n d
e n g a g e w i t h t h e H O D w h o w o u ld th e n p r e p a r e th e s e – t h is i s a n o r m a l
p r a c ti c e t h a t w ill b e th e r e b u t in t h e Fr e e S t a te , I w i ll c o m e a n d e x p la i n
t h a t a n e w s y s t e m a n d a n e w c u lt u r e e m e r g e d . S o t h is p a r a g r a p h , a ls o
t h a t th e – M r S h a r m a r e fe r s t o t h a t I a d v i s e d t h e m t o a p p r o a c h t h e
P r o v i n c ia l E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e .

L o o k a t t h e lo g ic o f t h e w h o le

s t a te m e n t , i t is n o t t h e m t h a t is P 3 a n d Yo l a n e , t h a t ’s M r S h a r m a a n d
10

t h e o th e r p e r s o n , th a t w e r e i n t e r e s te d i n th e b u il d i n g .

I t ’s i n i t ia t iv e

c o m i n g fr o m u s to s a y w e w a n t to d o t h i s a n d o p e n i n g u p a n d
d is c u s s in g w i t h o th e r p e o p le y o u w ill d is c u s s w i th t h e m a n d t h e y c a m e
a ls o t o s a y, t h e y a r e in t e r e s t e d t o d o t h i s .

S o I w o u l d n o t l o g i c a ll y I

w o u ld n o t ju s t – n o w t h a t t h e id e a is o u r s a n d th e n I t u r n to s o m e b o d y
a n d s a y g o to – y o u a d v ic e y o u g o t o t h e – m a k e a s u b m is s i o n t o t h e
P r o v i n c ia l E x e c u tiv e C o m m i t t e e . I n a n y c a s e t h e m e m o – I’ m g o i n g t o
d e m o n s t r a t e w h y t h i s is a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e it h a p p e n e d i n o n e
E x e c u t iv e m e e ti n g , i t ’s p a r t o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t I w il l r a is e , t h a t a n o ffic e
t h a t w a s n o t a l i g n e d d e p a r t m e n t – li n e f u n c t io n d e p a r t m e n t p r e s e n t e d a
20

m e m o i n th e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il a n d t h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m w i th t h e
c o n s e n t M E C a n d i n t h is c a s e i f y o u b r i n g a n y t h i n g t o th e E x e c u tiv e
C o m m i t t e e i t h a s t o g o th r o u g h t h e d e p a r t m e n t m a k i n g a s u b m is s io n ,
u n d e r n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h a t w il l b e t h e f a c t b u t in a n y r a t e a s
y o u ’ ll s e e C h a ir p e r s o n , e v e n w h e n t h e m a t te r w a s p r e s e n te d , I w a s n o t
e v e n in t h e Ex e c u ti v e a t t h a t t i m e , I d id n o t e v e n p r e s e n t t h e m a t t e r. I f

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it w a s s o , w h y w o u ld t h e M E C w h o w a s a c t in g o n m y b e h a l f a t t h a t
ti m e , t a k e t h e m a t t e r to E x c o i f t h e a d v ic e w a s f o r t h e m t o g o t o Ex c o ,
t h e m t o g o t o Ex c o .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s s o y o u ’r e d is t a n c i n g y o u r s e l f fr o m

w h a t M r S h a r m a is s a y in g i n h i s s t a t e m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I n th e s t a te m e n t , y e s I d o .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w if y o u m a y s u m m a r is e f o r u s w h a t

y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h fr o m p a g e s i x y o u d e d ic a t e p a r t C o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t to d e a l w i t h t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e A n n e x e d t o M r
10

S h a r m a ’s a ffi d a v i t , i f y o u c a n s u m m a r i s e th o s e i s s u e s w h i c h y o u
b e li e v e a r e c r i t ic a l fo r y o u t o o u t li n e t o t h e C h a ir i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e
d o c u m e n ts .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C a n I p a i n t a p ic t u r e , C h a ir p e r s o n , h e r e w e

a r e s i t ti n g in a m e e t in g , i t’s m y s e l f, Mr S h a r m a a n d t h e o t h e r
g e n tl e m e n , M r T h o m a s f o r P 3 a n d t h e n a d o c u m e n t is p r e s e n t e d a n d
t h e n t h is d o c u m e n t is g o i n g to c r e a t e – h e l p c r e a t e a p r o j e c t t h a t is
w o r t h b ill i o n s o f r a n d s .

I ’ m s i t ti n g i n t h e m e e ti n g w i t h th e g e n t le m e n

a n d t o a ls o g i v e th e b a c k g r o u n d i n w h a t I ’ m g o in g t o s a y, I w a s t h e
s p e a k e r o f t h e l e g is l a t u r e fo r a v e r y l o n g t i m e a n d I g o t t o u n d e r s ta n d a
20

n u m b e r o f t h i n g s a n d h o w t o d e a l w it h th e s e is s u e s b u t s i t t in g t h e r e ,
h e r e ’s a w it n e s s , th e y s i g n , I s i g n a s a H O D a n d I s ig n a s a M E C . Th e
t w o g e n t le m e n a r e s i t ti n g th e r e l o o k i n g a t m e s i g n in g a s a H O D , s ig n i n g
a s a M E C a n d t h e n s i g n in g a n d t h e y ’r e s i g n i n g a n d w e d o n ’ t h a v e a n y
w i t n e s s e s a n d t h e n t h e y g o o u t w i th th e d o c u m e n t w h ic h o f c o u r s e y o u
w i ll n o t fi n d th is d o c u m e n t in t h e d e p a r t m e n t e x c e p t e v e n w h e n w e w e r e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
lo o k in g fo r in f o r m a t io n w e c o u l d n o t fi n d th a t b u t t h e n t h e d o c u m e n t
s u r f a c e s a n d th e n t h e y s a y, th is is w h e r e I s i g n e d , I s i g n e d b o t h a s a
H O D a s w e ll a s a M E C . N o w i f i t d o e s n o t s o u n d s tr a n g e t h a t h e r e I ’ m
s i tt i n g w it h p e o p l e , a s I s a id e a r l i e r w h o ’s k n o w l e d g e a b le , h e ’s l o o k i n g
a t m e s i g n i n g a n d n o t e v e n s u g g e s ti n g t h a t , h e y w h a t a r e y o u d o i n g ,
w h y a r e y o u s ig n in g b u t i f y o u c h e c k th e t w o s i g n a t u r e s y o u w i ll fi n d
t h a t th e y a r e n o t i d e n t ic a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a n t t o g o t o th a t d o c u m e n t M r M o k o e n a i f y o u c a n

t e ll m e w h e r e i t is ?
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s C h a ir I’ m j u s t a b o u t t o g o t o i t , t h e

d o c u m e n t w i ll b e fo u n d a t M r S h a r m a ’s [i n d is ti n c t ] s t a t e m e n t C h a ir i f I
may go to it on page…
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m a t p a g e o n e o f M r S h a r m a ’s s t a t e m e n t o r i s i t

one of the Annexures?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t ’s p a g e 3 6 a n d I th i n k p a g e 3 8 , w o u ld

that be the document Mr Dukwana?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s th a t is t h e d o c u m e n t th a t t h e

w i t n e s s i s r e f e r r in g t o M r C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w i n l in e w i th th a t d o c u m e n t, n o w

t h a t w e h a v e o p e n e d p a g e 1 7 a n d 1 8 y o u c a n d e m o n s tr a te th e p o in t to
t h e C h a ir w i th r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t d o c u m e n t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

If y o u c h e c k i t s a y s , t h e w i tn e s s - t h e p a r ti e s

h e r e t o h a v e c a u s e d t h is a r g u m e n t to b e e x e c u te d b y t h e ir r e s p e c ti v e

Page 82 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
d u ly a u t h o r is e d o ff ic e s .

F o r th e Pr o v in c ia l G o v e r n m e n t o f th e Fr e e

S t a te a c t in g th r o u g h i ts D e p a r t m e n t o f Ec o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t , To u r is m
a n d E n v i r o n m e n ta l A ff a ir s t h e r e ’s a s i g n a t u r e a n d t h e n i t s a y s H e a d o f
t h e D e p a r t m e n t , Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d i t’s
w r i t t e n M A D u k w a n a 5 t h O c t o b e r a n d I’ v e s a i d t h i s o v e r a n d o v e r
C h a ir p e r s o n th a t d e s p i te t h e f a c t th a t w h e n I w r it e I w r i t e D u k w a n a a s
D u k w a n a , y o u h a v e it a g a i n o n p a g e 1 8 a n d y o u h a v e i t t h e r e a t p a g e
1 8 . S o t h a t is w h y I s a i d if t h e C o m m i s s i o n s o w is h e s c a n t a k e t h e s e
t w o s ig n a tu r e s b e c a u s e a s I s a y I w o u ld n o t b e t h a t s t u p i d t o s ig n h e r e
10

a n d t o s ig n a l s o a s a M E C .

In this I was representing the Provincial

G o v e r n m e n t a s a m e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l a n d t h e n d o in g th is .
W h e n t h e y d i d t h is w i th M r – t h a t is M r S h a r m a a n d th e o th e r – M r
T h o m a s , n o w a n d a s y o u k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n in e v e r y d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u
s ig n th e r e w il l b e w i t n e s s e s a n d t h i s o n e a ls o w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n
e x c e p ti o n s o I w o u l d b e s ig n i n g a d o c u m e n t a n d t h e d o c u m e n t s i g n e d
b y m e t h e r e w o u l d o f c o u r s e b e a w i t n e s s , in t h i s c a s e th e r e ’s n o n e a n d
h e r e a l s o h e ’s s i g n i n g a n d i f y o u c h e c k t h e w i t n e s s 1 , t h e r e is s p a c e f o r
w i t n e s s i n t h e d o c u m e n t b u t n o b o d y s i g n e d in th o s e g a p s i n c l u d i n g t h e
c o n s o r ti u m it s e l f o f Yo la n e M a n a g e m e n t a n d P 3 In t e r n a t i o n a l . I t i s w i th
20

t h a t in m i n d t h a t I r e q u e s t t h e C o m m i s s io n d o a t h o r o u g h i n v e s ti g a ti o n
in t o t h e m a tt e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I s e e th a t i t l o o k s l ik e n o d a t e i s r e fl e c t e d a s t o

w h e n – n o d a t e is r e fl e c t e d o n th e d o c u m e n t a s t o w h e n t h e s i g n a t u r e s
w e r e a p p e n d e d is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e d a t e i s t h e r e is t h e 5 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .

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CHAIRPERSON:

O h i t ’s – o k a y i t ’s w r i t t e n b e l o w th e n a m e - n o th a n k

y o u b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t – Mr S h a r m a h a s n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o
r e s p o n d to y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t is th a t c o r r e c t? S o h e d o e s n ’t
k n o w w h a t h i s r e s p o n s e is t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o h e w a s r e s p o n d i n g to t h e i n i t ia l
s t a te m e n t o f M r D u k w a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h i s is t h e r e s p o n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h a t I a m a s k i n g is w h e t h e r [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Exhibit – yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is w h e t h e r M r S h a r m a is a s – is a w a r e o f M r

D u k w a n a ’s r e s p o n s e to h i s s ta t e m e n t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O h y e s . H e w a s a ls o [ in t e r v e n ti o n ]
CHAIRPERSON: He was given.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e d i d f u r n i s h h i m w it h th e 3 .3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h e r e le v a n t p o r ti o n s o f t h e

s t a te m e n t d e f in i te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e h a s b e e n n o r e a c ti o n ?
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e r e h a s n o t b e e n a n y r e a c t io n M r

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w o u l d r e c a l l Mr C h a ir t h a t a l s o in m y
– w h e n w e o p e n e d – in o u r o p e n i n g r e m a r k s w h e n w e d e a l t w i th t h e
d i ff e r e n t in d i v i d u a ls .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e i n d ic a te d t h a t h e w a s o n e o f t h e

p e r s o n s t h a t w a s f a v o u r e d w i th t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M r D u k w a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l – w e w i ll h e a r w h a t h e w i ll c o m e w h e n h e
s a y s h e r e b u t i t i s q u i t e s tr a n g e b e c a u s e I g u e s s y o u m a y h a v e a
s i tu a ti o n w h e r e o n e s i g n s th e s a m e d o c u m e n t i n t w o d i ffe r e n t p l a c e s
w h e r e Mr D u k w a n a s ig n s fo r h i m s e l f a s M E C . A n d t h e n m a y b e h e s ig n s
in t h e p l a c e o f t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o n b e h a l f o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t P P.
T h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t t h e o r e ti c a ll y t h a t c o u l d h a p p e n . B u t m a y b e if
10

y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e s tr u c t u r e o f a Pr o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t t h a t t h e o n e
is a p o li t ic a l h e a d t h e o t h e r o n e is a c iv il s e r v a n t it c o u l d m a k e – i t
could cause problems even then.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s e e th a t h e r e i t is n o t e v e n P P

A s I s e e it – it

is s e e m s th a t t h e p e r s o n w h o s i g n s in b o t h p l a c e s h o l d s b o th p o s i ti o n s
as MEC and as Head of Department.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t t h e s a m e – a t th e s a m e ti m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d o f c o u r s e th a t is a le g a l i m p o s s i b i li t y. S o
that is –
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s e e m s q u i te – r e a ll y s tr a n g e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . B u t M r D u k w a n a m a y b e to r e m i n d
t h e C h a i r i n y o u r e a r ly te s ti m o n y w h e n y o u c o m m e n c e d w i t h y o u r
e v i d e n c e i n A p r i l y o u i n d ic a te d t h a t y o u r l e g a l te a m d i d b r i n g a n
a p p lic a ti o n in th e Fr e e S t a t e c o u r t w h e r e c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts w e r e

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s o u g h t , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n u n d e r s t a n d in g

t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o b e fa v o u r e d w i t h c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s . W a s t h i s
d o c u m e n t e v e r p r o d u c e d o ffi c i a l ly b y th e g o v e r n m e n t o f Fr e e S t a te ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t m e g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n – t o t h e i s s u e o n
w h ic h I h a v e j u s t r e m a r k e d . Yo u s e t o u t y o u r – y o u r h is t o r y fr o m 1 9 9 4
– y o u r – t h e p o s i ti o n s y o u h a v e h e l d i n g o v e r n m e n t in t h e Fr e e S t a t e
10

P r o v i n c e b u t y o u a ls o s e t o u t y o u r h is t o r y t o s o m e e x t e n t a s a m e m b e r
o f t h e r u l in g p a r ty a n d a s a n a c t iv is t . H a v e y o u e v e r k n o w n o f a n y b o d y
in a n y p r o v i n c e w h o h a s h e l d th e p o s it io n o f M E C a n d H e a d o f
D e p a r t m e n t a t th e s a m e ti m e s i n c e 1 9 9 4 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is n o t a ll o w e d . I t c a n n o t h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t c a n h a p p e n . I t d o e s n o t h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON: And you have never heard of anybody who does that?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o I h a v e n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I h a v e n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now if I ma y refer you to page 7 of your
s t a te m e n t . Yo u m a k e a f u r t h e r p o in t o n p a r a g r a p h 2 2 a n d 2 3 a s t o w h y
y o u a r e d is ta n c i n g y o u r s e l f f r o m t h e a v e r m e n ts c o n ta in e d i n M r
S h a r m a ’s a ff id a v i t .

P l e a s e t a k e u s th r o u g h w h a t y o u h a v e s t a t e d

Page 86 of 134

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t h e r e in ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e – t h e P r e m ie r I th i n k w e w e r e a ls o

d e m o n s t r a t e is s u e d a d i r e c t iv e th a t [i n te r v e n t io n ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr D u k w a n a . I d o n o t k n o w i f it i s m e b u t
b o t h y o u a n d M r M o k o e n a a r e – y o u r v o i c e s a r e v e r y s o f t th is
a ft e r n o o n . P l e a s e tr y a n d r a i s e i t i f y o u c a n ? L a s t ti m e I d i d n o t h a v e
a n y d i ffic u lt y h e a r i n g y o u .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is fo o d , i t is f o o d , i t i s f o o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I a m s a y i n g C h a ir t h a t t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t

t h i n g i s th a t t h e – th e t h e n D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l i s s u e d a s ta t e m e n t
in d i c a t in g t h a t a ll c o n tr a c ts o r a n y c o n tr a c t t h a t is t o e n t e r e d i n t o th e y
s h o u l d g o to t h e s t a t e l a w a d v i s o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l o f t h e Pr o v in c e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : J a t h e t h e n D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f t h e Pr o v i n c e
D o c to r N o h e la [ ? ]
CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Ngwenya.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o h e l a . [ ? ]
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay yes.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th e – t h a t is s o m e th i n g t h a t I w il l a ls o t a l k
t o . A n d i n t h is – i n t h i s – a n d a l s o t h e f a c t t h a t i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w e
h a v e g o t l e g a l p e o p l e w h o w o u ld d o th e d r a f t in g o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts .
A n d a t a n y r a t e o n c e y o u h a v e a d o c u m e n t l ik e t h i s a n d y o u s a y i t is
le g a l th is w a s t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t t h a t M r S h a r m a u s e d a t s o m e s t a g e
w h e n t h e y w a n t e d p a y m e n t . A n d i f I h a d s ig n e d th e d o c u m e n t I w i ll b e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h e w o r r ie d p e r s o n w h o w o u l d w a n t t o s e e p a y m e n t m a d e b u t th e r e
w e r e s o m a n y t h r e a ts c o m in g fr o m h i m in r e l a ti o n to t a k i n g u s to c o u r t
a b o u t a l l t h e s e a n d m a k i n g s o m a n y a l l e g a ti o n s .

B u t t h a t – th o s e

t h r e a ts n e v e r s a w t h e d a y o f li g h t o r th e li g h t o f d a y. A n d t h e – a ll I a m
tr y i n g t o s a y is w h e n p e o p l e d o t h e s e k i n d s o f t h in g s a n d g o o u t a n d
t h r e a t e n u s th a t y o u h a v e s ig n e d a d o c u m e n t a n d t h e r e f o r e y o u m u s t
d e li v e r o n t h e d o c u m e n t i t w a s a t th a t ti m e b e c a u s e w e – w h e n w e m e t
w i t h t h e m w e w a n t e d – w e w e r e s ti ll g e tt i n g i n f o r m a ti o n .

W e o n ly

in d i c a t e d to t h e m – I p e r s o n a l ly s a id t o t h e m t h e y s h o u ld c o m e i n a n d
10

w e a r r a n g e d fo r t h e m to h a v e a w o r k s h o p w i t h t h e s t a ff. A n d t h e n w e –
t h e r e t h e y w il l u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e w e h a d e s ta b lis h e d a te a m . S o t h e y
w i ll t h e n g e t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t e x a c tl y w e w a n t .

But for them even

b e f o r e w e h a d f in a lis e d t h a t p r o c e s s th e y h a d i s s u e d – th e y w a n t e d t o
b e p a i d y o u k n o w a n a m o u n t th a t th e y r e q u e s t e d a t th e ti m e .

And if

y o u r e c a ll i n t h e p r e v i o u s s u b m i s s i o n t h a t w h e r e w e p o i n t e d o u t th a t
t h e y – t h e y h a d in d ic a t e d w h e n w e m e t w i t h P i tr i [ ? ] .

P it r i [ ? ] w a s

w i ll in g t o h e l p u s in t e r m s o f t h e p il o t p r o j e c t t h a t w e w a n t e d to d o f ir s t .
T h e y w o u l d g e t t h e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d t h e n t h e y w il l d o i t a t t h e ir o w n
e x p e n s e s b u t a t a l a te r s ta g e w e w e r e a r m e d w i th t h i s d o c u m e n t .
20

T h e r e w a s a r e q u e s t f o r p a y m e n t a n d I d e c li n e d s u c h r e q u e s t b e c a u s e
it w a s n o t w h a t w e h a d a g r e e d w i th t h e s e p e o p l e . Yo u w o u ld – y o u w il l
r e c a l l – y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r a l s o t h e f a c t t h a t t h i s th in g h a p p e n e d a n d a t
a l a t e r s t a g e th e r e w a s a r e q u e s t t o v i s i t th e G u p t a ’s c o m p o u n d .

If I

h a d s ig n e d a n d a g r e e d t o t h i s t h i n g I d o n o t t h in k t h e r e w o u ld h a v e
b e e n a n y n e e d f o r m e t o g o t o t h e G u p t a C o m p o u n d . S o t h i s i s e x a c tl y

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
w h a t I a m j u s t s t a ti n g a s a f a c t t h a t a n d g iv i n g t h a t c o n t e x t t h a t I a m
n o t j u s t d e n y i n g y o u k n o w s a y i n g th is a n d t h e n it i s n o t p o s s ib l e a n d
that I did not do that.

I a m ju s t s a y in g t h e s e t h i n g s a s th e y a r e

p r e s e n t e d h e r e a r e n o t r e f l e c ti n g t h e tr u t h o f w h a t e x a c t ly a s p ir e d –
h a p p e n e d w h e n w e m e t . A n d w e w e r e n o t m e e t in g o n ly t h e m . A n d t h e
f a c t t h a t t h e y t h e n w a n t e d t h e p r o j e c t t o b e r u n b y th e m w e y o u n e e d e d
t o g o o u t o n a te n d e r.
project.

I t is a h u g e a m o u n t o f m o n e y.

I t w a s g o in g to b e a h u g e p r o j e c t .

I t is a h u g e

Yo u w o u l d n o t ju s t d o a

p r o j e c t li k e th a t w i t h o u t g o in g t o b e a t e n d e r a n d a l lo w in g t h e
10

p r o c e s s e s t o c o n ti n u e .

B u t t h e y t h o u g h t t h a t i t w o u ld b e e a s y th a t is

w h y I w a s s a y i n g o n c e t h e y h a v e t h e – th e M E C t h e y t h o u g h t t h a t i t w il l
b e e a s y a n d t h e n th e y c a n g e t w h a t e v e r t h e y w a n t e d .

So when I

r e fu s e d t h is p a y m e n t t h e y w e n t t o t h e H O D a n d th e H O D a ls o d i d n o t
w a n t h i m s e l f i n v o l v e d i n th is .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d th e n t h e y t h r e a t e n e d t o g o t o c o u r t a n d
u p u n t il I w a s f ir e d in 2 0 1 2 n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o t h is .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C a n w e n o w m o v e to d e a l w i t h s o m e t h in g
s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t a r is in g fr o m y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
20

Yo u a r e m e n t io n in g

c e r t a i n t h r e a t s w h ic h w e r e m a d e b y M r M a g a s h u l e p u r s u a n t t o y o u
h a v i n g t e s t i fi e d i n th is c o m m i s s io n . Yo u b e g in d e a li n g w i t h th o s e fr o m
p a r a g r a p h 2 7 o n p a g e 8 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t .

If y o u c a n e x p l a i n to t h e

C h a ir ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e – o n t h e [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M r D u k w a n a I j u s t w a n t to s a y fo r t h e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
b e n e fi t o f th e t e c h n i c i a n s I th i n k t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h e y h a v e d o n e
w h ic h h a s m a d e b o th o f y o u q u i t e a u d i b l e t o m e n o w. I a m s a y i n g it s o
t h a t in f u t u r e i f I h a v e c o m p l a i n ts t h e y c a n r e m e m b e r w h a t t h e y d i d .
W h a t e v e r it is .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir w e a r e t o ld t h a t – w e a r e t o l d th a t
t h e [i n t e r v e n t i o n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s t h e a ir c o n d it i o n e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th e a i r c o n d i ti o n e r i s i n t e r fe r i n g w i t h o u r
voices.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O h o k a y. T h e n n e x t ti m e t h e y w il l k n o w it is t h e
a ir c o n d i ti o n e r. N o w I c a n h e a r b o th o f y o u v e r y w e ll .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n t h i s p a r a g r a p h I s t a t e d t h e f a c t t h a t o n t h e
5 t h A p r il a f t e r m y b e i n g h e r e a t th e c o m m i s s io n Mr M a g a s h u l e w a s
in t e r v ie w e d b y Mr S a m k e le M a s e k o fr o m E N C A a n d in t h a t i n te r v i e w h e
in ti m a t e d th a t h e w a s g o i n g t o t a k e m e to c o u r t . A n d u p o n h e a r i n g t h a t
I w i t h o u t d e l a y in s tr u c te d m y a t to r n e y t o a d d r e s s a l e tt e r t o h i m t o
r e c e i v e a n y c o u r t d o c u m e n t s p e r t a i n i n g t o h is le g a l t h r e a ts .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

I n o t h e r w o r d s y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e it e a s y f o r h i m

t h a t i f h e w a n t e d t o s u e y o u h e k n e w w h e r e t o ta k e t h e p a p e r s t o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I k n o w th a t b e c a u s e I w a s n o l o n g e r i n

g o v e r n m e n t . I t w o u ld b e d i ff ic u l t f o r h i m t o – b e c a u s e I d o n o t th i n k h e
k n o w s [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t o f in d y o u ?

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s I d i d n o t w a n t t o m a k e i t d i ff ic u l t fo r h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o I t h e n a s k e d m y l a w y e r s to d o t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t w a n t h i m t o s a y I h a v e b e e n l o o k i n g f o r
t h is m a n I c a n n o t f in d h i m . I w a n t t o s e r v e h i m w it h c o u r t p a p e r s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ex a c t ly I w a s m a k i n g i t e a s i e r fo r h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 3 5 a n d p r o v i d e
s o m e [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON: What page?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 3 5 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 35?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . I n o r d e r t o p r o v i d e c o n te x t t o w h a t
y o u h a v e s t a t e d t o t h e C h a i r a n d i f y o u m a y i d e n ti fy th a t d o c u m e n t f o r
us?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

It is a d o c u m e n t f r o m M a s h a l a K o m a n i

M a s e k e la A t t o r n e y s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h o a r e th e y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e y a r e m y a t t o r n e y s .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w w h a t d o e s it s a y r e – w h a t is
the subject of this correspondence?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t w a s a d d r e s s e d to M r E l ia s S e k g o b e l a

M a g a s h u le t h r o u g h Th u l i H o u s e a n d t h e a d d r e s s i s g iv e n a n d t h e d a te
w a s o n th e 9 t h A p r il . A n d t h e n i t i s s e r v ic e o f c o u r t [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n r e a d t h e le t t e r.

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A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s p l e a s e r e a d t h e le t t e r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ W e a c t f o r a n d o n b e h a lf o f M r M x o li s i D u k w a n a o u r
c li e n t w h o o n t h e 5 t h A p r i l 2 0 1 9 t e s ti f i e d a t th e
c o m m i s s io n o f s t a te c a p tu r e b e f o r e D e p u t y C h i e f
J u s t ic e R a y m o n d Z o n d o .

O u r c li e n t l e a r n t th r o u g h

t h e m e d i a t h a t y o u i n t e n d a p p r o a c h i n g t h e c o u r ts i n
r e l a ti o n to h is t e s ti m o n y a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d
in s t r u c t s u s t o r e c e i v e a ll t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d o r
10

c o u r t p a p e r s o n h is b e h a l f .

W e u r g e y o u t o d ir e c t

any

or

correspondence

and

serve

any

court

d o c u m e n ts to u s . W e tr u s t t h a t y o u w i ll f in d t h e
above in order”
I t is s i g n e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d if y o u m a y t u r n t o p a g e 3 6 . 3 6
C h a ir. A n d i f y o u m a y a l s o id e n ti fy t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f o r u s w h o i t
w a s i n te n d e d to a n d t h e c o n t e n ts o f th a t e m a il ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is a l e t t e r t o M r M a g a s h u le . I t is fr o m t h e
o ffic e I s u p p o s e . A N C 1 9 1 2 fr o m M a s e k o , P u le M a s e k o . I t w a s s i g n e d
20

o n t h e 1 0 t h A p r il a n d i t s a y s :
“ G o o d m o r n i n g M a ’ a m k in d ly t a k e n o t e th a t t h e o ff ic e
o f A N C S G C o mr a d e A c e M a g a s h u le h a s r e c e i v e d
y o u r e m a il o n t h e 1 0 t h A p r il 2 0 1 9 . Fr o m P u l e M a s e k o
PA o f th e A N C S G ”
A n d t h e n u m b e r is th e r e .

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ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

S o t h is c o n f ir m s th a t it – t h i s

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s in d e e d r e c e i v e d b y t h e o ff ic e o f M r M a g a s h u l e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d f r o m t h a t d a t e w h e n h e th r e a te n e d
le g a l a c ti o n a g a i n s t y o u d o y o u k n o w i f a n y t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M y le g a l t e a m h a s n o t i n f o r m e d m e o f t h a t

therefore I take it; it has not come to – to pass.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M a y I t h e n r e f e r y o u b a c k to y o u r
s t a te m e n t w i t h p a r tic u la r r e fe r e n c e to p a g e 8 a n d y o u m a y p r o c e e d
10

p l e a s e d e a l in g w i t h th e c o n te n ts – th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h j u s t to p u t
c o n te x t o n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir I a m s t a t i n g h e r e t h a t t o d a t e m y

a tt o r n e y s h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d a n y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s u c h a s a l e t te r o f
d e m a n d f o r m e to r e tr a c t m y s u b m is s io n s a t th e c o m m i s s io n o r l e g a l
d o c u m e n ts fr o m M r M a g a s h u l e . I s t a n d r e a d y t o fa c e M r M a g a s h u l e a t
a n y c o u r t in t h e R e p u b l ic .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

S o y o u m a i n t a in y o u r e v i d e n c e

w h ic h y o u h a v e a c t u a l ly c o n v e y e d a n d s t a te d o r a d d u c e d b e f o r e t h i s
c o m m i s s io n b e f o r e t h e C h a ir ?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I d o w h o l e h e a r t e d ly.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w m a y I r e f e r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h –
t o p a g e 9 w h e r e y o u a r e p r o v i d i n g t h e C h a ir w i th t h e r e a s o n s a s to w h y
y o u d e e m e d it n e c e s s a r y t o p r o v id e e v i d e n c e t o th is c o m m is s i o n ? Yo u
m a y p r o c e e d t o s u m m a r is e p a r a g r a p h 2 9 a n d 3 0 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t
please.

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e – t h e A N C i n i ts N a t io n a l C o n f e r e n c e

known – commonly known as the NASREC Conference in 2017. One of
t h e r e s o lu t io n s t h a t t h e y – th a t w a s a c c e p t e d a n d c a m e o u t o f th a t
c o n fe r e n c e w a s f o r – w a s e n c o u r a g i n g m e m b e r s o f t h e A N C .
1 . To f i g h t c o r r u p t io n w it h e v e r y t h in g t h a t th e y h a v e a n d w h e r e t h e y
know

of

any

corrupt

a c tiv i ti e s

they

s h o u ld

report

t h a t.

E n c o u r a g i n g e v e r y m e m b e r o f th e A N C t o c o m e t o w i th e v i d e n c e
t h a t t h e y h a v e a t t h e ir d i s p o s a l – a t t h e ir d is p o s a l t o c o m e t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n .
10

A n d a s y o u w o u ld k n o w C h a ir th e r e h a s b e e n s o m u c h n o i s e a b o u t
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e – o f th e c o n f e r e n c e r e s o l u ti o n . A n d m a n y p e o p l e
o n ly t h i n k o f t h o s e t h a t r e la t e to r a d ic a l e c o n o m ic tr a n s f o r m a ti o n .
T h e r e a r e m a n y. B u il d in g t h e o r g a n i s a t io n e tc e t e r a , e tc e te r a , e tc e t e r a
in c l u d i n g t h i s o n e .

A n d – a n d a s a m e m b e r o f th e A N C , d is c i p li n e d

m e m b e r o f t h e A N C a s I s a id e a r li e r t h a t t h e r e is a n A N C t h a t I k n o w
t h a t I g o t to k n o w v e r y w e l l w h e n a s a n e x o ffic i a l m e m b e r o f t h e A N C
b a c k i n 1 9 9 1 w h e n t h e r e w e r e le a d e r s a t t h e ti m e a s I s a i d w h e r e o n e
g o t a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d r i n k in t h e w e l l o f s u c h g r e a t n e s s .

And

u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e A N C a n d n o t th e – w h a t w e s e e h a p p e n i n g n o w.
20

I

t h e n f e l t th a t a s a d i s c ip li n e d m e m b e r o f t h e A N C I n e e d e d t o r e s p o n d
t o t h is c a l l .

A n d t h a t i s w h y d e s p i t e t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r e a r e r is k s

in v o lv e d a p p e a r i n g a t th e c o m m i s s i o n .

Yo u k n o w s o o n e w a s

r e s p o n d i n g to t h is c a ll a n d n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h e r is k t h a t is i n v o lv e d .
B u t o n e th i n g t h a t is d r iv i n g o n e t o c o m e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n h e r e is
b e c a u s e w e w e r e l e ft a le g a c y a n d b y g e n e r a t io n s b e f o r e u s a n d i t is

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i m p o r t a n t f o r u s t o l e a v e a l e g a c y fo r m a n y g e n e r a ti o n s . I a m n o t d o in g
it fo r t h i s g e n e r a ti o n h e r e I r a is in g t h is m a tt e r b e c a u s e o n c e w e a ll o w
c o r r u p ti o n t o b e e n d e m ic a s y o u w o u l d s e e w h e n I d e a l w i t h s o m e o f
t h e is s u e s o n th e s i d e t h a t o n c e c o r r u p ti o n b e c o m e s n o r m a l it b e c o m e s
d i ff ic u l t f o r u s a s a n a t i o n to – t o b r i n g u p r e s p o n s ib l e a d u l ts . A n d y o u
n e e d p e o p l e w i t h e t h i c s t o b e le a d e r s i n s o c i e ty. B u t o n c e y o u g e t – I
w i ll m a k e a n e x a m p le .

I n o n e w a r d w h e n p e o p le w e r e t o ld th a t t h i s

M a y o r is a c t u a l ly s t e a li n g t h e m o n e y fr o m th e M u n ic ip a li ty a n d y o u a r e
s u ff e r i n g . S o m e i n o n e w a r d w e r e s a y i n g b u t a t l e a s t h e – h e is g iv in g
10

us some.

S o p e o p l e d o n o t c a r e a b o u t t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f th is a s

lo n g a s t h e y a r e g e t ti n g s o m e t h in g .

A n d I b e li e v e t h a t i t is o u r

r e s p o n s i b i li ty a l l o f u s t h a t w e s h o u l d s t a n d u p i f w e tr u ly lo v e t h i s
c o u n tr y a n d d e a l w i th t h i s – t h i s th in g t h a t is d e s tr o y in g o u r c o u n tr y.
A n d i f y o u c a n g e t e v e r y m e m b e r o f o u r s o c i e ty e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e A N C
a s t h e r u li n g p a r ty – i f y o u c a n g e t th e m t o d e t e s t c o r r u p t i o n , fr a u d a n d
e v e r y t h i n g I t h i n k it w ill h e l p .

I t w i ll g o a l o n g w a y to d e a l w i th t h i s .

B u t a ls o I a m v e r y m in d f u l o f t h e f a c t th a t y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o fi g h t
c o r r u p ti o n b y o n l y r a i s i n g t h e s e m a t te r s .

W e h a v e a ls o s e t u p a

c o m m u n i ty y o u k n o w f o r u m a n d w h e r e w e t h i n k w e w i ll u s e t h is t o tr a i n ,
20

e d u c a t e a n d e m p o w e r o u r o w n c i tiz e n s t o b e v e r y a c ti v e .

I was

e n c o u r a g e d C h a ir w h e n e s p e c ia ll y w h e n t h e r e p o r ts – t h e n e w s p a p e r
w e r e r a is i n g a m a t te r a b o u t t h e fu n d i n g o f t h e c a m p a i g n o f n o w t h e
P r e s i d e n t . A n d t h a t e v e r y th in g w a s p u t t h e r e .

It was encouraging to

r e a l is e t h a t th e r e i s s o m u c h e x c i te m e n t i n te r m s o f e n g a g i n g fr o m o u r
o w n p e o p l e to e n g a g e t h i n g s t h a t th e y s a y t h e y d o n o t l ik e . B u t a t t h e

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s a m e t i m e I w a s d is a p p o i n te d t h a t t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l h a d r a i s e d s o
m a n y o t h e r t h i n g s e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e M u n ic ip a li ti e s w h a t h a s b e e n
h a p p e n in g .

M o n i e s m is a p p r o p r i a te d e t c e t e r a .

And the same energy

w a s n o t d e m o n s tr a t e d b y th e – o u r p u b l ic i n t e r m s o f r a i s i n g th e s e
is s u e s .

Th e – a ll I a m ju s t s a y i n g n o t j u s ti fy i n g s o m e o f th e t h i n g s

b e c a u s e a ls o a t t h e t i m e I w a s a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e i n th e c a m p a i g n a n d
w h e n p e o p l e r a i s e t h e s e m a tt e r s o n e th i n g t h a t p e o p le d id n o t k n o w
t h a t o n e p a r tic i p a t e d in m a n y c a m p a i g n s s ta r t i n g fr o m t h e c a m p a ig n
t h a t w a s in P o lo k w a n e . I t h i n k i f p e o p l e c a n b e h o n e s t a n d u n d e r s ta n d
10

w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e y w i ll r e a l is e t h a t t h e s e t h i n g s s t a r t e d l o n g t i m e a g o
in d o i n g t h is . A n d i t w a s e n c o u r a g in g t h a t p e o p l e w e r e s t a r ti n g t o s a y
it – i t i s w r o n g t o d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s a n d i t a ff e c t s t h e s ta n d i n g o f a n y
p e r s o n i f c e r t a in th in g s a r e n o t d o n e t h e p r o p e r w a y. B u t p e o p l e d o n o t
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a t t h e ti m e a ls o s o m e o f u s w h e n w e w e r e s a y in g in t h e
c o m m i s s io n b u t h e y y o u g u y s w a n t to g o t h is w a y, y o u w a n t u s t o s i g n
t h i n g s , y o u w a n t u s to – y o u h a v e b a n k a c c o u n ts , y o u d o t h i s . I t d o e s
not happen and people say no, no we want to make sure that whatever
m o n e y w e g e t w e c a n a c c o u n t f o r th a t . T h e o n ly w a y w e c a n a c c o u n t
f o r t h is i s to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e a r e n o p l a s t ic b a g s f u ll o f m o n e y

20

g o i n g o u t.

A n d a s I a m s i t ti n g h e r e I a m v e r y p r o u d t o h a v e b e e n a

m e m b e r o f t h a t c a m p a i g n a n d m a d e s u r e e v e n th a t w h e n t h e y w e r e
r a i s i n g a l l t h e s e i s s u e s t h a t I – w e c a n a c t u a ll y s a y y o u c a n h a v e a –
s t il l h a v e s o m e r e p o r ts w h e r e I c a n s h o w t h a t th is i s w h e r e t h e m o n e y
went.

B u t i f y o u c h e c k n o b o d y a ls o c a r e s t o a s k w h a t h a p p e n e d to

o th e r c a m p a ig n s ?

I f y o u r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n a l s o t h a t t h e – w h e n

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t h e D A w a s i n th e c a m p a i g n f o r le a d e r s h i p i n 2 0 1 5 th e p e r s o n w h o w a s
c o n te s t i n g M u s i M a i m a n e .

I t h i n k i t i s W il m a J a m e s I t h i n k r a is e d –

c h a l le n g e d M u s i M a i m a n e to d e c l a r e t h e s o u r c e o f t h e f u n d in g o f h is
campaign and on the 29th April I think 2015 and the 30th there were
s o m e s t a t e m e n ts , s o m e r e p o r t s t h a t w e r e m a d e w h e r e t h e y in d i c a t e d
t h a t i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i th th e p u b l ic b u t i t w a s a n in t e r n a l m a tt e r o f
t h e p a r ty a n d th e – a n d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e d o n o r s o r t h o s e w h o w e r e
g iv i n g o u t m o n e y h a d r e q u e s te d to r e m a in a n o n y m o u s th e y w i ll d e f e n d
t h a t . E v e n – s o I a m j u s t s a y in g th a t t h i s m a t t e r w a s m u c h b ig g e r t h a n
10

a l l th e p e o p le l o o k i n g a t t h e – a t w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e C R 1 7 c a m p a i g n .
S o I a m r a is in g th is m a t t e r j u s t to s a y a s m e m b e r s w h o a r e d is c i p l in e d
t h e r e a r e t h i n g s t h a t w e k n o w s o m e t i m e s w e g e t o ff t h e r o a d b u t w h e n
p e o p l e r a is e t h e s e m a t t e r s a n d s t a r t e d e n g a g in g a n d y o u s e e th e s ie v e
t h a t p e o p l e w e r e r a is i n g a b o u t t h e p o s s ib il i ty o f b e i n g c a p t u r e d
e tc e t e r a I a ls o i n s o m e i n d i – i n s o m e c a s e s I s a i d th e s a m e p r e c e d e n t
w i t h t h is f o u n d a ti o n r a is in g m o n e y a n d g o i n g e v e n i n o u r p r o v i n c e w e
b e c a m e n u m b e r 1 p r o v i n c e i n e d u c a ti o n .
spent

in

d e a li n g

with

were

coming

from

F o u n d a t i o n a n d c o n t r i b u t e d i m m e n s e ly.
20

Money – money that was
the

Cyril

Ramophosa

A t t h e ti m e n o b o d y s a i d

b e c a u s e y o u a r e r e c e iv i n g m o n e y fr o m t h o s e w h o a r e s a i d to b e o u r
w h i te c o m p a tr io ts ’ e tc e te r a t h e r e f o r e n o b o d y w e n t t o y o u a n d s a i d w e
w i ll n o t a c c e p t th is m o n e y i t c o m e s fr o m t h is w h i t e p e o p l e , w h it e
business people.

B u t i t h e lp e d a n d f o r o n e to s u g g e s t a t a n y g iv e n

ti m e t h a t i f y o u a r e g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i t y t o c o n t e s t a n d m o n e y s p e n t
a n d s o m e b o d y s p e n t m o n e y f o r y o u t h a t a u to m a t ic a l ly o p e n s u p y o u to

Page 97 of 134

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
being

aboard

etcetera,

etcetera.

What

happens

to

th o s e

who

c o n tr i b u t e d m o n e y a n d t h e y d i d n o t m a k e it . S o I a m – a ll I a m tr y in g
t o s a y is a l l o f u s h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s m e m b e r s o f th e s o c i e ty t o
m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n w e s e e th i n g s th a t a r e n o t g o i n g a c c o r d i n g y o u
k n o w – s o m e – w h a t w e e x p e c t a s o u r v a l u e s i n s o c i e ty.

I have my

v a l u e s y s t e m b u t o n c e I g e t i n t o a g r o u p I g e t a l s o to u n d e r s t a n d t h e
v a l u e s y s t e m o f th a t o r th e c u l tu r e o f th a t g r o u p . A n d i f i t d o e s n o t a ll
g o w e ll w i t h m y v a lu e s y s t e m I w a lk a w a y.

But if the – if the

o r g a n i s a t io n t h e n s w a l lo w s y o u r v a lu e s y s t e m i t le a v e s y o u s h a l lo w. I t
10

le a v e s y o u i n h u m a n . Yo u d o n o t f e e l . Yo u w il l n o t l iv e . Yo u w i ll n o t
c o n tr i b u t e . S o t h a t w h y I a m s a y in g th a t [i n te r v e n ti o n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u a r e – y o u a r e r e a l ly m a k i n g
w i t h o u t g o i n g a s t r a y i s s i m p ly t h a t y o u f e e l t h a t b o th a s a c i t iz e n a n d
a s a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C h a v in g r e g a r d t o t h e v a l u e s o f t h e A N C a s y o u
u n d e r s t a n d th e m .

H a v in g r e g a r d t o o n e o f t h e r e s o lu t io n s t h a t w a s

p a s s e d b y th e A N C a t c o n f e r e n c e i n 2 0 1 7 D e c e m b e r y o u f e e l th a t y o u
h a v e a n o b l ig a ti o n b e c a u s e y o u k n o w t h a t c e r t a i n t h i n g s h a p p e n e d t h a t
f a ll w i t h i n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h i s c o m m is s i o n t o c o m e fo r w a r d in
r e s p o n s e t o t h a t c a ll m a d e b y t h e A N C t h r o u g h th a t r e s o l u ti o n t o c o m e
20

f o r w a r d a n d s h a r e w i t h th e c o m m i s s io n w h a t y o u k n o w.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
CHAIRPERSON: Well I - I - you may have heard that I have said quite
a few times that I believe that there must be many past and present
M i n is t e r s , D e p u t y M i n is t e r s a n d D ir e c to r s - G e n e r a l a n d o t h e r s e n io r
o ffic i a ls w h o - w h o k n o w s o m e t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d th a t w o u l d fa ll
w i t h i n th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h is C o m m i s s io n o v e r t h e y e a r s a n d
t h a t I s ti ll th i n k th a t t h e n u m b e r o f M i n i s te r s , D e p u ty M i n is t e r s p a s t a n d
present

and

D ir e c to r s - G e n e r a l

who

have

come

forward

to

th is

C o m m i s s i o n t o a s s is t i t is - i s v e r y - is a v e r y s m a l l n u m b e r c o m p a r e d
t o a ll t h o s e n u m b e r s a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r b e c a u s e w h e n y o u t a lk
10

a b o u t t h a t - t h o s e c a t e g o r i e s o f p e o p le m o s t o f t h e m w o u l d - w o u l d b e
p e o p l e w h o a r e - w h o c o m e fr o m t h e r u li n g p a r t y.
I do not know whether any of them who may be having
k n o w l e d g e o f l o ts o f m a t te r s r e l a ti n g t o s t a t e c a p t u r e a n d m a t t e r s
r e l a ti n g to c o r r u p t io n t h a t f a l l w i t h i n t h e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a r e n o t c o m i n g fo r w a r d b e c a u s e th e y t h i n k i f th e y c o m e
f o r w a r d a n d e x p o s e th e s e - th e s e th i n g s a n d te ll t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d
t h e n a ti o n w h a t t h e y k n o w m a y b e t h e y f e e l a s i f t h e y w i ll b e p u t t in g
t h e ir p a r ty in a b a d li g h t a n d th a t i t w il l b e - i t m a y b e c o n s tr u e d a s i f
they are not loyal but I do not know whether you can enhance the

20

s t a tu s o f y o u r o r g a n is a ti o n b y s w e e p i n g c o r r u p ti o n u n d e r t h e c a r p e t
a n d t h i n g s l ik e th a t r a th e r t h a n c o m i n g fo r w a r d b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
is t h e r e is a s p e c i fic r e s o l u ti o n t h a t e n c o u r a g e d a l l m e m b e r s w h o m a y
h a v e k n o w l e d g e to c o m e f o r w a r d a n d t o d o s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th e s e
m a t t e r s a n d y o u a r e r e s p o n d i n g t o th a t c a l l .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e b o d y o n c e s a id t h a t fo r y o u

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t o - s o m e t i m e s y o u w il l n e e d to g o d e e p e r - g o d o w n i n t o th e w o r l d f o r
y o u t o s e e th e s ta r s i n d a y li g h t a n d s o m e ti m e s y o u n e e d t o g e t t o t h e
b o t t o m o f t h i n g s f o r y o u t o b e y o u k n o w t o - to s e e th in g s c l e a r ly. I d o
n o t t h i n k - i n m y v ie w I d o n o t t h i n k - y o u s e e th e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e a l s o
t h a t w e n e e d t o l o o k i n t o w h a t t h e A N C s t a n d s f o r a n d a ls o p e o p le w h o
c o m e in t o t h e A N C .
T h e r e a r e t h o s e w h o j u s t j o i n e d t h e A N C b e c a u s e th e y t h i n k
b y a s s o c i a ti n g w i th t h e A N C th e y w il l g e t c e r t a i n t h i n g s b u t t h e r e a r e
t h o s e w h o a r e r e v o l u ti o n a r y w h o w e r e a c t iv i s ts a t s o m e s t a g e w h e n
10

t h e r e w a s - th e r e w a s n o t h i n g f o r t h e m . I t w a s r i s k y ju s t t o b e in v o lv e d
in th e s e t h i n g s w i th n o r e w a r d s w h a ts o e v e r. I a m t a lk i n g t o - to s u c h
in d i v i d u a ls t h a t w h o u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t l y w h i ls t o t h e r p e o p l e h a d
s a c r i fi c e d w it h t h e ir l iv e s f o r u s t o b e w h e r e w e a r e a n d I d o n o t t h i n k i t
p u t s th e o r g a n is a t i o n i n - in a b a d l ig h t w h e n w e d e a l w i th t h e s e
m a t t e r s b e c a u s e t h e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r is y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o d o
a n y th in g d r a s ti c y o u k n o w a s y o u s a y r a d ic a l e c o n o m ic tr a n s f o r m a ti o n
w h e n th e r e is s o m u c h c o r r u p ti o n p r e v a le n t i n s o c i e ty.
S e r v ic e s a r e b e c o m i n g e x p e n s i v e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e l e a d e r s
w h o a r e n o t d e d ic a te d i n m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h e l a w s t h e Ac t s e v e r y th in g

20

that have been passed to make sure that we have got good governance
a r e i m p le m e n t e d . A s l e a d e r s m a k i n g s u r e th a t th e s e t h i n g s d o h a p p e n
a n d - a n d y o u fi n d y o u r s e l f e n t a n g l e d in t h a t . W h a t s u ffe r s is t h e n t h e
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f s o m e o f t h e s e r e s o l u ti o n s .
S o i t is t h e r e f o r e v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e w o r k o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d b e e n h a n c e d a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t a ll th o s e w h o

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k n o w a n y t h i n g s h o u l d c o m e fo r w a r d b e c a u s e o n c e y o u d o th a t y o u a r e
a b l e t o c l e a n s e e v e n y o u r o r g a n is a t i o n a n d c l e a n s o c i e ty b e c a u s e w h a t
is h a p p e n i n g i n t h e A N C i s a m ic r o c o s m o f o u r s o c ie t y y o u k n o w.

It

w a s n o t s u r p r is i n g a t s o m e s t a g e w h e n i t w a s r e p o r t e d r e c e n t ly t h a t i n
o n e s c h o o l i n K Z N c h i l d r e n w e r e d e m a n d in g th a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n
o n e h o u r s m o k e b r e a k y o u k n o w a n d i f - i f y o u f i n d s u c h t h in g s
h a p p e n in g a s a p a r e n t a s a c i ti z e n y o u s h o u l d b e w o r r i e d .
W h e r e a r e w e g o i n g ? Yo u k n o w. S o I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h i s i s a
p r o b le m t h a t w e n e e d t o f ix . I t is n o t o n l y a b o u t e c o n o m y, a b o u t t h i s .
10

Yo u n e e d a l s o t o l o o k in t o y o u r - y o u r s o c ie t y a n d fi x t h is w h a t is
h a p p e n in g w h a t is w r o n g in - i n o u r s o c i e ty.

O n c e y o u h a v e th a t y o u

w o u ld h a v e a b e t t e r w a y o f d e a li n g w i th a l l t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t y o u
h a v e b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d h a v e e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h a t is
h a p p e n in g .
I f y o u g o - i f w e - w e le a v e t h is . F o r i n s t a n c e y o u w o u l d h a v e
p o li c e y o u k n o w s o m e t i m e s I a m a s k e d i n W e lk o m w h y a r e p o li c e n o t
d o i n g - w h y n o t - w h y a r e t h e y n o t a r r e s t i n g t h e s e p e o p l e a r e a ll o v e r
y o u k n o w e s p e c i a l ly il le g a l m i n e r s e t c e t e r a . I w a s s h o c k e d w h e n o n e
p o li c e m a n s a id t o m e y o u k n o w t h e p r o b l e m is w e a r r e s t t h e s e p e o p l e .
20

W h e n w e g e t to t h e p o li c e s t a ti o n t h is p e r s o n w ill t h e n c l a i m
t h a t h e h a d 1 0 0 0 0 0 i n h i s p o c k e t a n d y o u s to le t h a t m o n e y. H e w a n ts
it a n d th e n w h a t is g o i n g to h a p p e n .

T h e r e is g o i n g to b e a

d e p a r t m e n ta l i n v e s t ig a t io n t a k e n a n d s o m e t i m e s t h e s e p o lic e g o
t h r o u g h t h e s e d i ff ic u l t t h i n g s a n d b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t d e a l in g w i th t h is
w e a r e n o t d e a l i n g w i t h c o r r u p t io n a n d u p r o o t in g i t .

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
S o m e o t h e r s n o w g e t i n v o l v e d a n d t h e y s e e th e r e is n o v a l u e
in a r r e s ti n g t h e s e p e o p le . W h a t d o w e d o ? W e g e t i n t o t h i s . S o t h e r e
is t h a t l o g ic n o w c o m i n g i n , in o u r s o c ie t y a n d t h e o th e r f a c t
C h a ir p e r s o n

is

that

people

are

Commissions after Commission.

so

ti r e d

of

C o m m i s s io n s

after

P e o p l e w a n t to s e e t h e s e p e o p l e

g e t t in g a r r e s te d b u t o n c e t h e y d o n o t s e e th is t h i n g h a p p e n i n g p e o p l e
get discouraged.
A s I a m s i t ti n g h e r e a n d a s I s a id e a r l i e r o n t h e u n fo r t u n a t e
t h i n g t h a t is h a p p e n i n g is t h e t h r e a d t o a b r e e d o f p r o f e s s io n a l s i n t h e 10

in t h e P u b li c S e c t o r a n d m a n y h a v e b e e n d e s tr o y e d .

Yo u t a lk a b o u t

B r i a n M o l e fe v e r y b r il li a n t g u y b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e s e t h in g s y o u h a v e
lo s t s u c h b r i ll ia n c e y o u k n o w a n d t h e r e a r e m a n y o th e r s th a t a r e o u t
t h e r e . O th e r s a r e a fr a id C h a ir.
T h e r e - i f y o u c h e c k i n o u r s o c i e ty n o w e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e
P u b l ic A d m i n is tr a ti o n i f y o u c a n d o y o u k n o w r e s e a r c h y o u w il l fi n d
m a n y e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t p o s i ti o n .

M a n y o f th e m

h a v e o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r a d m i t t e d fo r - f o r d e p r e s s i o n b e c a u s e t h e y a r e
g iv i n g i n s tr u c ti o n s t h a t a r e v e r y d i ffe r e n t . T h e y k n o w I c a n n o t d o th is
b u t b e c a u s e th e y h a v e s e e n th a t if y o u d o n o t d o t h is t h e r e a r e
20

p o s s i b il it i e s .
Yo u a r e g o in g t o l o s e y o u r j o b o r y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to g e t a n y
p r o m o ti o n a n d - a n d t h a t is a p r o b l e m . S o I a m j u s t s a y in g fo r u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m i n te r r u p ti n g y o u . Yo u s e e th a t - th a t
is p a r t o f m y p r o b l e m b e c a u s e p r e c i s e ly w h a t y o u s a y fr o m w h a t o n e
h a s - h a s h e a r d fr o m p e o p l e a n d r e a d o v e r t h e y e a r s o n e w o u ld h a v e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e f a ll w i t h i n t h e
c a t e g o r ie s t h a t I m e n ti o n e d e a r l i e r w h e t h e r i t is a D G o r a D e p u ty D G
w h o s a y s I w a s i n c h a r g e o f a d e p a r t m e n t - o f t h a t d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h is
is w h a t h a p p e n e d o r I w a s a D e p u ty M i n i s t e r.
I b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h is o r I w a s a M i n is te r. I b e c a m e a w a r e
o f t h is a n d s o o n a n d t o t h e e x t e n t th a t o n e is t a lk i n g a b o u t D G s ,
D e p u ty D G s a n d m a y b e lo w e r o ffi c i a l s . T h e y a r e n o t c o mi n g f o r w a r d t o
s a y w e l l f o r e x a m p le I w a s i n s tr u c t e d t o g iv e t h is t e n d e r t o s o a n d s o
a n d y e t th e r e m a y w e ll b e m a n y s u c h c a s e s a n d - a n d w h a t p a r t o f w h a t
10

is w o r r y i n g is w h y d o w e h a v e s o f e w p e o p le w h o a r e p r e p a r e d t o s ta n d
f o r t h e t r u t h a n d s a y th is c a n n o t b e a l lo w e d t o c o n t i n u e .
Yo u r e fe r r e d a f e w m i n u t e s a g o t o a n e r a i n o u r c o u n tr y
w h e r e a l o t o f p e o p l e w e r e p r e p a r e d to s t a n d u p f o r t h e t r u t h a n d f o r
ju s t ic e w h e n t h e r e w a s n o r e w a r d o r m o n e t a r y r e w a r d o r r e w a r d f o r
t h e m p e r s o n a ll y. Th a t w o u l d b e t h e r e f o r s ta n d i n g f o r t h e tr u t h . W h o
w e r e p r e p a r e d t o ta k e r is k s , w h o w e r e p r e p a r e d t o l e a v e t h e ir f a m il ie s
a n d g o i n t o e x il e , s p e n d t i m e i n j a i l , b e d e ta in e d , b e b e a t e n u p b y t h e
p o li c e - a p a r t h e id p o l ic e - a n d s ta y tr u e t o th e tr u th a n d w h e r e a r e
t h o s e b i g n u m b e r s n o w.

20

W e k n e w th a t t h e r e w e r e b ig n u m b e r s o f p e o p le w h o w e r e l ik e
t h a t a n d s o m e m a n y o f t h e m a r e a r o u n d a n d - a n d - b u t p e o p le - th e
n u m b e r s o f p e o p l e w h o a r e c o m i n g f o r w a r d w h o f a l l in t o t h e c a te g o r i e s
t h a t I a m ta lk i n g a b o u t a r e v e r y y o u k n o w s m a ll .

I mean we - we

a p p r e c ia t e a n d g r e a tl y a p p r e c ia t e t h o s e n u m b e r s t h o s e p e o p l e w h o
have come forward and we commend them.

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
I t is g o o d b u t o n e j u s t f e e l s t h a t th e n u m b e r s a r e s m a ll .
T h e r e m u s t b e s o m a n y p e o p l e i n th e p r o v i n c e s , in m u n ic i p a l i ti e s , i n
n a t io n a l d e p a r t m e n ts w h o k n o w a l o t o f t h i n g s b u t w h o a r e k e e p in g
q u i e t w h o a r e n o t s a y i n g t h is i s o u r c o u n tr y.

I o w e l o y a l t y t o th is

c o u n tr y a n d I a m g o i n g to g o f o r w a r d a n d t e l l th e n a t i o n w h a t I k n o w.
S o th a t th e r e i s a c h a n c e t h a t t h is c o u n tr y c a n c h a n g e f o r th e b e t t e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a w e h a v e h e a r d th e C h a ir ’s

p l e a a n d I a m s u r e th a t y o u h a v e a ls o tr ie d to a r ti c u la t e th e r e a s o n s
w h y y o u t h o u g h t i t - y o u d e e m e d i t n e c e s s a r y to c o m e b e f o r e t h is
10

C o m m i s s i o n . I f y o u m a y n o w d e a l w i th …
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on.

B e f o r e t h a t M r M o k o e n a . Mr D u k w a n a d o

y o u w a n t t o s a y a n y t h in g to t h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir t h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e o u t t h e r e w h o

a r e w i ll i n g to c o m e t o t h e C o m m is s i o n .

If C h a ir r e m e m b e r s t h e l a s t

ti m e I w a s h e r e I i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e f a c t th a t s o m e p e o p l e t h i n k t h a t i t i s
o n ly E n g l is h a n d I s a w th a t th e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o h a d …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Tr a n s l a t o r s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e r e w e r e tr a n s la t io n s a n d m a n y p e o p le a r e
e x c i te d y o u n o w …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I r e m e m b e r y o u s a i d th a t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

B u t a l s o y o u h a v e a c h a l le n g e .

Yo u s e e

t o x i c le a d e r s h a v e a w a y o f d e a l in g w it h t h i n g s . T h e y in s t il fe a r a n d a n d m a n y o f th e s e p e o p l e a r e - a r e le f t v u l n e r a b l e .
example.

Let me make an

T h e r e is a v i d e n o w - a v id e o c li p d o i n g r o u n d s i n - i n m y

province of one Mayor - ex Mayor who was making threats about a

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
p e r s o n i n th e s u p p ly c h a i n w h o w a s a ll e g e d t o h a v e g iv e n i n fo r m a ti o n
e i t h e r t o t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r o r to th e H a w k s a n d t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e
t h e r e a n d y o u k n o w t h i s M a y o r w a s g o in g o n a n d o n a n d o n t h r e a t e n i n g
them and know - we know you.
We know your phones.

We have seen.

W e k n o w.

We can

tr a c k y o u r - y o u r e m a il . Yo u s e n d th is e m a i l a n d th e n y o u s ta r t e d u s in g
t h a t a n d d o in g t h is a n d w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e w o r k in g w i t h s u c h p e o p le
a n d w e w il l ta k e y o u - y o u w i ll g o h o m e a n d y o u w il l s t a y h o m e . S o i f if y o u h a v e t h e s e k i n d s o f t h in g s i n t h e e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t w e h a v e m a n y
10

o f t h e s e p e o p l e s o m e o f t h e m a r e s ti ll i n t h e e m p l o y o f G o v e r n m e n t a n d
t h is is t h e o n ly w a y t h a t th e y h a v e n o w y o u k n o w a n d i f y o u g e t fir e d
b e c a u s e t h e r e i s o n l y s o m e th in g t h a t i s h a p p e n i n g .
Yo u h a v e m a n y o ffe r s a s p o l i ti c i a n s o r t h e s e p e o p le i n
Government.

T h e r e is a n is s u e t h a t i f I - i f y o u fi g h t m e y o u fi g h ti n g

t h e S t a t e . T h e r e s o u r c e s t h a t I a m u s i n g t o fi g h t t h a t a r e n o t m i n e , a r e
the State resources.

Yo u a s a p e r s o n y o u a r e u s i n g y o u r o w n

r e s o u r c e s . S o I w i ll m a k e s u r e I d e p l e t e y o u r r e s o u r c e s f ig h ti n g y o u .
S o I w il l g o to c o u r t y o u k n o w r e m i n d t h i s - c a u s e a ll t h e s e
things and you have got to go on paying these lawyers.
20

U l ti m a t e ly

t h e s e p e o p l e a r e s i t ti n g w i th s u c h h u g e b i lls a n d t h e n to f a c e th is . S o
w h a t o p t io n d o y o u h a v e i n t h i s c a s e w h e n p e o p l e k n o w in g e x a c t ly th a t
t h e y a r e in th e w r o n g b u t g o b a c k a n d u s e S t a t e c o ff e r s , S t a te m o n e y
t o d e f e n d th e m s e lv e s a n d m a k e s u r e th a t th e s e p o o r p e o p le a r e le f t
o u t s i d e t h e r e a n d t h e y l o s e e v e r y th in g .
S o p e o p le - t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o j u s t a s I a m s a y in g t h e r e

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
a r e w il li n g p a r t ic ip a n ts b u t t h e r e a r e t h o s e w h o a r e n o t w il li n g a t a ll
who feel …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ve r y b a d a b o u t w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e li t tl e t h a t th e y d o .

In some cases

t h e s e a r e t h e s a m e p e o p l e w h o w o u l d s a y to y o u I h a v e t h is
in f o r m a ti o n . Yo u k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y g iv e y o u t h e in f o r m a ti o n .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s a n d t h e n a n d th e n t h e y - t h e y y o u k n o w
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y s a y d o n o t m e n ti o n m y n a m e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A s l o n g a s y o u a r e n o t m e n ti o n i n g t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A s l o n g a s y o u d o t h is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o t h e y a r e h e l p in g u s i n t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

20

T h e y a r e n o t c o m in g u p b u t a s I a m s a y i n g

a ls o a s - a s a s o c i e ta l p r o b l e m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
example.

Where you have workers.

I w i ll m a k e a n

T h e y d o n o t w o r k M o n d a y, Tu e s d a y, W e d n e s d a y, T h u r s d a y

during the week.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e y d o n o t s e e t h a t a s c o r r u p t io n .

I t is

q u i te c o r r u p ti o n . T h e y d o n o t s e e i t a s c o r r u p t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t t h e y g e t p a i d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th e n c o m e S u n d a y c o m e S a t u r d a y i t is

o v e r ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

I n o n e m u n ic i p a l it y f o r in s t a n c e w e h a v e a

p e r s o n w h o is i n h o s p it a l - w h o w a s in h o s p i t a l a t t h e t i m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t g e t p a i d h is - h i s o v e r t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o y o u h a v e t h e s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s h a p p e n i n g
in o u r s o c i e ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o p e o p le th in k t h a t i t is o n ly b y s t e a li n g o r
d o i n g t h is b u t a ls o i t is b y o m is s io n y o u a r e n o t d o i n g c e r ta i n t h i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u h a v e g o t l e a d e r s w h o a r e n o t b r a v e

enough …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t a l s o t h e f a c t is w h a t d o y o u d o a s t h e s e
p o li t ic a l l e a d e r s .

Yo u

a p p o in t p e o p l e y o u k n o w

c o m p r o m is e d a n d t h is i s t h e c a s e i n t h e p r o v i n c e .

Page 107 of 134

th a t th e y

are

If I know you are

27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
c o m p r o m is e d a n d I h a v e s o m e th in g a g a in s t y o u s o it is e a s y t o m a k e
y o u r c a l l . Yo u w il l d o t h e s e th in g s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e n w e c o n ti n u e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d I w il l b e s it t in g t h e r e a n d s a y i n g I a m

n o t s i g n in g a n y th in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h a t i s t h e p r o b l e m b e c a u s e … .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e y - t h e y d o n o t t a k e r e s p o n s i b il i ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

So I am hoping that there are many of the

c o l l e a g u e s a ls o i n t h e A N C w h o w i ll s t a n d u p …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w i ll s t a n d u p ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d w h o w i ll c o m e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d h e l p t h e w o r k o f th e C o m m i s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh, huh-uh.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o t t o h e l p t h e Zo n d o C o m m is s i o n b u t t o

help South Africa …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C l e a n s e i ts e lf o f th is s ic k n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t w e a r e s e e in g n o w.

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n o u r s o c ie t y t h a t u n d e r m i n e s d e v e l o p m e n t ,
growth and …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d a l l o t h e r t h i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

No, thank - thank you Mr Dukwana.

I - I

p a r t ic u l a r ly w a n te d to h e a r t h e p e r s p e c t i v e s t h a t y o u h a v e g i v e n m e
a b o u t c h a l le n g e s in p e o p l e w h o s h o u ld b e c o m i n g f o r w a r d w h o m a y b e
h a v i n g k n o w l e d g e o f t h in g s th a t f a ll w i th i n t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e b u t
10

w h o a r e n o t c o m i n g fo r w a r d . I h a v e a s k e d o t h e r w i t n e s s e s w h o - w h o
w e r e i n G o v e r n m e n t a ls o t o s h a r e w i th m e t h e ir p e r s p e c ti v e s b e c a u s e i t
is s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s q u i te c o n c e r n i n g to m e .

Ye s , y o u m a y p r o c e e d

Mr Mokoena.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 1 y o u

tr a c e y o u r h is t o r y w i t h M r M a g a s h u l e a n d t h e r o l e t h a t y o u p la y e d in h i s
c a r e e r. C o u l d y o u p le a s e d e a l w i th t h o s e a s p e c ts fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 3 1
and 32?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t p a g e a r e y o u n o w ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I a m o n - I a m o n p a g e 9 C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Paragraph 31 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L e a d in g to p a r a g r a p h 3 2 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
1 9 9 2 /1 9 9 3 / 1 9 9 4 .

I s e r v e d w i th - w i t h Ac e M a g a s h u le fr o m

Yo u w i ll r e m e m b e r C h a ir I i n d ic a te d th a t I w a s t h e

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fir s t C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e A N C i n t h e r e g io n w h e n t h e A N C w a s u n b a n n e d
a n d l a t e r o n A c e M a g a s h u l e c a m e i n a n d w e s ta r t e d w o r k i n g a n d I k n e w
h i m a t t h e ti m e a n d m a n y o t h e r c o mr a d e s a n d I a ls o - I a m r e m in d e d
a ls o o f w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n I w a s f ir e d .
T h e t h e n S G c a ll e d m e t o h i s o ff ic e a n d h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u
s e e w e w a n t e d t o s a v e y o u fr o m t h is b u t y o u w e r e th e r e s p e a k i n g t h is
E n g l is h a n d d e f e n d in g t h is t h in g . N o w i t b i t e s y o u . S o th e - t h e i s s u e
w h a t I a m t r y in g t o s a y h e r e i s I a m o n e o f th e - o f - o f t h e p e o p le w h o w h o i n t h e Fr e e S ta t e a t t h e t i m e w o r k e d w it h Ac e . W e p r o t e c t e d h i m .
W e d e f e n d e d h i m a n d t h i s w a s a t th e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e -

10

t h e r e w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t - a g r e e m e n t th a t w h o e v e r b e c o m e s t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e p r o v i n c e w o u l d b e c o m e t h e P r e m ie r.

S o it w a s a

p o s i ti o n th a t w a s ta k e n b y a l l b r a n c h e s . S o w e d e f e n d e d t h a t c o ll e c ti v e
d e c is i o n t h a t w a s t a k e n a n d m a d e s u r e t h a t w e w i ll d e f e n d h i m . W e w i ll
m a k e s u r e th a t h e c o m e s in a n d b e c o m e s t h e P r e mi e r.
U n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e th e n P r e s id e n t t h e l a t e Pr e s id e n t M a n d e l a
d i d n o t a p p o i n t h i m a s a P r e m ie r a n d th e n l a t e r o n T h a b o M b e k i d i d n o t
do that.

P r e s i d e n t T h a b o M b e k i d id n o t d o t h a t a n d t h e n i t w a s o n ly

2 0 0 9 a f te r th e c o n f e r e n c e i n 2 0 0 7 t h a t h e f o u n d h i m s e l f h e r e . I a m t h e
20

person that when we came back from Polokwane we went to sit together
ju s t t o d e m o n s tr a t e s o m e o f t h e - w e w e n t t o s it t o g e t h e r a t - a t a h o t e l
s o u th - a t t h e - w h a t is t h is s t r e e t?
I n o n e o f th e h o te ls i n S a n d t o n , K a th e r i n e S tr e e t S o u th e r n
Sun and because I saw that in the conference there were two people
w h o w e r e p o p u la r i n th e c o n fe r e n c e a t t h e ti m e . Yo u w o u l d h e a r w h e n

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t h e t h e n P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s c o m i n g i n . I t w o u l d b e t h a t n o is e Z u m a ,
Z u m a , Zu m a , Z u m a a n d w h e n A c e c a m e in i t w i ll g o A c e . S o - a n d t h e n
I - I - w h e n w e w e r e t o g e t h e r I a s k e d h i m - I e v e n in d ic a t e d to h i m y o u is i t n o t ti m e th a t y o u h a v e o u t g r o w n t h e Fr e e S t a t e p o li t ic s a n d g o t o
n a t io n a l a n d w e c o u l d e n g a g e t o th a t l e v e l a n d I - I a s w e w e r e
s p e a k i n g I g o t th e f e e li n g th a t h e - h e w a s a c tu a lly h e a r i n g m e a n d
u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t I w a s s a y i n g b e c a u s e I w a s s a y i n g i f y o u c h e c k in
t h e G o v e r n m e n t a t th e ti m e w e o n l y h a d M b a l u l a w h o w e r e c o m in g fr o m
t h e Fr e e S ta t e e t c e t e r a b u t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly th r o u g h o u t s tr u c tu r e s .
M b a l u la a t t h e t i m e w a s i n t h e Yo u th L e a g u e a n d h e w a s s o in

10

t h e n a ti o n a l l e v e l. S o w e w e r e s a y i n g a s t h e F r e e S t a t e w e h a v e n o t
b e e n a b le t o c o n tr ib u t e i n t e r m s o f l e a d e r s h ip e s p e c i a lly e v e n a t th e
n a t io n a l l e v e l a n d - a n d a ls o C a b i n e t . S o I f e l t th a t i t w a s m y d u ty a s a
fr i e n d o r s o t o ta lk t o h i m h e a r t t o h e a r t a n d w e h a d t h a t d i s c u s s i o n a n d
h e w a s fe e li n g li k e a g r e e in g u p u n t il s o m e p e o p l e c a m e i n w h o l a t e r
b e c a m e b u s i n e s s p e o p le w h o a c t u a ll y i n fl u e n c e d h i m o t h e r w i s e a n d it
w a s a t th a t p o i n t w h e n h e f e l t t h a t I w a s p u s h i n g h i m o u t b e c a u s e I
w a n t e d t o b e th e - th e C h a ir p e r s o n .
T h a t is w h a t p e o p le w e r e s a y i n g a t t h e t i m e a n d t h a t w a s n o t
20

the case because we understood processes.
w a s D e p u ty.

We had at the time who

W e h a d C o m r a d e ( i n d is ti n c t) w h o w a s f a ir l y c a p a b le o f

le a d i n g u s a n d w e w e r e n o t i n a h u r r y to l e a d a s C h a i r p e r s o n a t t h e
ti m e .

S o w e h a d th e d is c u s s i o n a n d I - I s i n c e r e l y b e l ie v e t h a t m y

c o m i n g h e r e i t is - it is n o t b e c a u s e I h a t e t h e p e r s o n o r w h a t .
I t is o u t o f lo v e f o r - f o r s o m e o f t h e s e p e o p l e t h a t y o u k n o w

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w e a r e m e n ti o n i n g th e m h e r e b e c a u s e I b e li e v e s o m e o f t h e m d o n o t
s le e p C h a ir p e r s o n v e r y w e ll . Yo u k n o w w h e n y o u h a v e d o n e s o m e t h i n g
w r o n g a n d y o u f e e l - s o m e o f t h e m d o n o t e v e n e n j o y th e m o n e y th a t
t h e y a r e h a v in g . S o t h e is s u e h e r e is j u s t t o s a y w h e n e v e n a t t h e t i m e
w h e n in 1 9 9 6 / 1 9 9 7 / 1 9 9 8 w h e n - I t h in k i t w a s 1 9 9 6 b e f o r e w e w e r e
d is b a n d e d .
T h e r e w a s a - a c a s e w h e r e Mr M a g a s h u le w a s a c c u s e d o f
c o r r u p ti o n b y ( in d is ti n c t) a n d b e c a u s e w e f e l t t h a t ( i n d is t in c t ) c o u l d
h a v e c o m e to t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d d e a l t w i t h t h i s m a t t e r b u t w a n te d to
10

d o t h a t s o lo w e t h e n r a ll ie d a r o u n d A c e a n d d e fe n d e d h i m .

Th e r e is

o n e p o o r c o m r a d e w h o w a s - w h e n A c e w a s r e m o v e d a s M E C a n d t h is
c o m r a d e w a s in Q w a Q w a .
H e h a d t o c o m e a n d f e tc h t h e c a r. G o o u t a s M E C b u t w h e n
he came back he was no longer MEC.

So he became an MEC for a

s h o r t w h i l e a n d - a n d r e p l a c in g Ac e M a g a s h u le b u t b e c a u s e o f o u r
e ffo r t s a n d e v e r y t h in g w e w e r e a b le t o o v e r t u r n th a t - t h a t d e c i s i o n a n d
C o m r a d e A c e b e c a m e a n M E C a g a i n a n d c o n ti n u e d b u t t h a t l e d t o u s
being disbanded in 1996 as the PEC.
S o I a m j u s t s a y in g t h e - t h e s e t h i n g s t h a t w e s e e t h a t w e a r e
20

r a i s i n g h e r e a r e - a r e v e r y w o r r is o m e b e c a u s e t h e k i n d o f a p e r s o n I
c a m e t o k n o w a t th a t t i m e w h e n w e - w e w e r e s ti ll a t M a s a d a i n W e lk o m
w a s a v e r y c a r in g in d iv i d u a l C h a ir p e r s o n . I n f a c t h e w o u l d b u y c lo t h e s
e tc e t e r a a n d i f h e g e t s p e o p l e h e w o u ld g iv e t h e m .

He was a person

w h o w a s g iv in g o u t a n d s h o w in g t h a t - th a t h e c a r e d a lo t a b o u t p e o p le .
I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d th e r e w a s a s u d d e n c h a n g e

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a n d o n e - e v e n w h e n I d id n o t s u p p o r t h i m a t N a s r e c .

I w e n t t o h is

o ffic e w h il e h e w a s s t ill t h e P r e m ie r a n d i n o u r d is c u s s i o n t o g e t h e r w i th
h i m I i n d i c a t e d to h i m - I s h o w e d h i m w h y - I i n d ic a te d t o h i m y o u k n o w
I do not support you even when - even as I am seated now here. I think
t h a t i t w a s n o t a g o o d p o s i ti o n I s a i d t o h i m a n d h e k n o w s t h is .
I said to him not anywhere and I said I am worried. I wonder
w h e t h e r t h e s e p e o p l e a r e g o in g to g e t th e ir m i n u t e s b e c a u s e y o u a r e
n o t t h e p e r s o n w h o w r i te s a n d a ll t h o s e t h i n g s a n d s o m e ti m e s y o u a r e
g o i n g t o c h a s e th o s e m i n u t e s a n d h e j o k i n g ly s a i d to m e I a m n o t g o i n g
10

t o w r it e m in u t e s .

I t is g o in g t o b e C o m r a d e J e s s ie D u a r t e w h o w il l

w r i t e m in u t e s a n d e t c e t e r a .
S o I a m j u s t s a y i n g j u s t t o d e m o n s tr a t e t h is e v e n a ft e r t h e
N a s r e c C o n fe r e n c e . S o w h e n w e w e n t a n d m e t a n d d i s c u s s e d w it h h i m
in - in h is o ff ic e .

I i n d ic a te d t o h i m t h a t l o o k y o u a r e n o t i n t h i s

p o s i ti o n . I t i s e i t h e r y o u g o i n g to m a k e i t d i ffic u lt fo r a n y p e r s o n w h o
c o m e s fr o m t h e Fr e e S t a t e t o a c t u a ll y b e r e c o g n is e d a t t h e n a ti o n a l
le v e l o r y o u a r e g o i n g t o m a k e it e a s i e r f o r u s if y o u n o w m o v e a w a y
fr o m t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d b e c o m e th e S G o f th e A N C a l l o f u s a n d I t h i n k
it w i ll w o r k a n d I t h o u g h t h e - w e u n d e r s t o o d e a c h o th e r. A s I l e f t I h a d
20

t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t b e c a u s e h e s a i d h e is w il li n g t o d o t h a t . H e w a n t s
t o d o t h a t. H e w a n ts t o b e t h is b u t I w a s s h o c k e d t h a t t w o d a y s l a te r
o n e o f th e M E C s t o l d m e t h a t w h e n t h e y w e r e i n B o ts h a b e l o h e w a s h e w a s y o u k n o w t e ll i n g th e m h o w h e m a n a g e d m y s e lf a n d Th a b o . T h a t
w h e n Th a b o c a m e th r o u g h th is d o o r a n d t h e n h e - h e f e tc h e d m e
t h r o u g h t h i s d o o r s o t h a t m y s e l f a n d T h a b o s h o u l d n o t m e e t a n d th e n

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h e s a y s h e w a s m a n a g i n g u s . T h e n I f e l t t h a t I d o n o t th in k t h e p e r s o n
w o u ld a c t u a ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is th e p e r s o n y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t A c e - A c e M a g a s h u l e .
CHAIRPERSON: As Thabo.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h o is T h a b o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is th e p e r s o n y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o a s T h a b o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a b o M a n y o n i.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s a n d a t t h a t m e e ti n g I f o u n d T h a b o t h e r e
b u t w e w e r e p u t in d i ff e r e n t o ffi c e s . I t w a s c l e a r t h a t i t w a s m e a n t fo r
u s n o t t o m e e t b u t u n fo r t u n a t e l y n a t u r e c a l le d a n d Th a b o h a d to c o m e
a n d h e fo u n d m e a t th e r e c e p t io n a n d t h e n - t h e n I s a i d I d o n o t k n o w
that you are here.

S o n o w th a t y o u a r e h e r e le t u s g o a n d m e e t h i m

t o g e th e r a n d I d o n o t w h a t h a p p e n e d .
I w a it e d I w a i t e d a n d a ft e r t h a t I s a w I w a s fe tc h e d b y t h e n
P r e m i e r A c e M a g a s h u l e i n to h is o ffi c e o n l y t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w h e n h e
f e t c h e d m e h e a l l o w e d T h a b o to g o o u t th e o t h e r w a y a n d I w a s p u t i n 20

s o I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h a t d is a p p o i n t e d m e a l o t to s a y h e r e i s a p e r s o n
y o u a r e tr y in g t o h e l p b e c a u s e th is i s w h a t w e h a d d o n e a ll t h e t i m e .
Tr y i n g to h e l p h i m . Yo u k n o w s o m e t i m e s w h e n w e w o r k w i t h
p e o p l e y o u w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d y o u r w e a k n e s s e s a n d y o u w i ll u n d e r s t a n d
h is w e a k n e s s e s a n d y o u w i ll th in k t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t o a p e r s o n y o u
c a n d o t h is a n d b e c o m e a b e t te r p e r s o n . S o - b u t th e n I r e a lis e d t h a t I

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was - I was wrong.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

So the essence of paragraph 31 and 32

is t h a t y o u a r e h e r e to t e s t i fy o n t h e is s u e s t h a t y o u a r e r a is in g n o t o f
a n y i ll f e e l in g s w it h a n y o n e b u t to p r o v i d e t h e fa c ts t h a t f a l ls w i t h i n
y o u r k n o w le d g e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e d i ff ic u l ty a n d t h e o n e

p a i n f u l t h i n g t h a t h a s a c tu a lly b e e n w i th m e s i n c e I c a m e h e r e i t is
p e o p l e t h a t I a m g o i n g t o t a lk a b o u t h e r e a r e p e o p l e t h a t I w a s , y o u
10

k n o w I h a p p e n t o k n o w t h e m v e r y w e ll , a n d t h e s e a r e p e o p l e th a t I
a s s o c i a t e d a n d w o r k e d w i th e tc e te r a , b u t t o s e e s u c h a c h a n g e in
p e o p l e a n d s e e p e o p l e c h a n g i n g o t h e r t h i n g s , a c t u a ll y w a s v e r y h u r tf u l
t o s a y th e l e a s t , b u t i t is w h a t i t is . I a m h e r e n o t b e c a u s e t h a t I w a n t
t o p u l l a n y p e r s o n d o w n , b u t I ju s t w a n t to p u t th e s e fa c t s a n d t h e f a c ts
w i ll t a l k f o r th e m s e lv e s , a n d I j u s t h o p e t h a t s o m e ti m e , s o m e d a y a c ti o n
o r a c t io n s w il l b e t a k e n a g a i n s t s o m e o f t h e s e p e o p l e w h o a r e d o in g a l l
t h e s e t h i n g s w i th i m p u n i ty.
P e o p l e a r e e v e n p r o u d to t e ll o t h e r s t h a t – a n d t h e y u s e – i t is
a S o th o w o r d [ A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ] y o u k n o w a n d p e o p l e w il l b e p r o u d to

20

s a y w e w il l d o t h i s to y o u , w e w o u l d – s o m e p e o p l e p r o u d l y i n p u b l ic
p l a t fo r m s w o u ld s a y w e w il l d e a l w i t h y o u , y o u w il l g o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON: And they do nothing about it.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e n y o u w o u ld b e o u t o f w o r k a n d y o u

w i ll b e y o u k n o w y o u w i ll b e p o o r.

In s o m e i n s t a n c e s ( i n d is ti n c t) a n d

w e w ill t a k e y o u r w if e , a n d th is i s h o w s e r i o u s . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y s a y th e y w i ll t a k e y o u r w if e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s , a n d th e n t h e y u s e – i n fa c t I a m j u s t

u s i n g a b e t te r w o r d h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t w a n t to u s e t h e
v e r y s tr o n g w o r d s b u t in fa c t w e h a v e s e e n t h e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n . In th e
P r o v i n c e I s e e t h e s e t h i n g s a n d m a n y p e o p l e s e e t h e s e th i n g s . A s I a m
s p e a k i n g t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n I s tr o n g ly b e l ie v e th e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e
in t h e Fr e e S t a t e w h o a r e r e a l ly, r e a l ly h u r t a n d w h o f e e l t h a t n o t h i n g i s
b e i n g d o n e t o d e a l w i th t h is m a t t e r, b u t I w i ll c o m e t o t h i s a t a la t e r
stage.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a i r l o o s e ly tr a n s l a te d [ A f r i c a n

la n g u a g e ] I w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u a r e p o o r, I c a n ’ t t a k e i t a n y b e t t e r
t h a n th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [l a u g h i n g ] I h e a r y o u Mr M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr Dukwana on paragraph 34, 33 and

3 4 y o u t h e n d e m o n s tr a t e h o w Mr M a g a s h u l e w o u l d b e a b l e to d is p e n s e
p a tr o n a g e a n d y o u g a v e s o m e o f t h e e x a m p l e s , c o u l d y o u p le a s e t a l k to
those paragraphs.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir p e r s o n . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )

I’ m s o r r y M r D u k w a n a , ju s t t o g o b a c k t o w h a t y o u

w e r e s a y i n g e a r l ie r o n , i n e ff e c t w h a t y o u w e r e te ll in g m e is th a t t h e
s i tu a ti o n i s s o b a d t h a t s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e e n g a g e d i n w r o n g
t h i n g s , w h o a r e e n g a g e d i n c o r r u p ti o n th e y w il l te ll p e o p le i n p u b lic i f
y o u d o A , B , C , D m e a n i n g th i n g s t h a t s o m e b o d y c o u l d d o i f th e y a r e
fi g h ti n g c o r r u p ti o n i f y o u d o t h a t w e w i ll s e e t o i t , w e w il l d e a l w i t h y o u ,

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w e w il l s e e t o i t th a t y o u w ill b e c o m e n o t h i n g , t h a t is t h e g i s t o f w h a t
y o u a r e s a y in g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t i s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . O k a y, I i n t e r r u p t e d M r M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o , t h a t is fi n e , w e a r e j u s t a b o u t t o

d e a l w it h 3 3 a n d 3 4 o f th e s t a te m e n t fr o m p a g e 1 0 C h a ir.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f y o u c h e c k th a t I w a s p o i n ti n g , th e r e w e r e

s ig n s C h a i r p e r s o n , th e r e w e r e s i g n s t h a t w e r e th e r e f o r u s , f o r a l l o f
u s , a n d I th in k w e d id a d is s e r v ic e t o th e F r e e S t a t e p e o p l e b e c a u s e
10

b e i n g c l o s e to t h e m a n y o u c o u l d s e e t h e s i g n s b u t in s t e a d w e
p r o t e c t e d th is . W h a t I a m tr y i n g t o d e m o n s tr a t e h e r e is if y o u g o to a n y
d e p a r t m e n t t h a t Ac e s e r v e d in y o u w o u l d h a v e a p e r s o n f o r i n s t a n c e if
( in d is ti n c t) K e k a m a w e r e to c o m e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d te s ti fy a b o u t
w h a t h e k n o w s h a p p e n e d w h e n A c e w a s in A g r i c u l tu r e , a n d w h a t y o u
k n o w y o u h a v e N d e g u T h u l i w h o w o u ld b e a b l e t o t e l l y o u w h a t h e
k n o w s w h e n h e b e c a m e t h e C h i e f i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r h i m a n d m a n y o t h e r
things.
J u s t t o m a k e a n e x a m p l e , w h e n I w a s M E C o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d
S e c u r i ty i t w a s i n 2 0 0 8 , a t t h e ti m e A c e w a s i n S p o r ts a n d y o u k n o w

20

t h i n g s – t h e r e w a s a H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t w h o h a d c o m e fr o m
s u s p e n s i o n a n d w o n t h e c a s e , ( i n d i s t i n c t) K la a s w h o b e c a m e t h e H O D
in th e d e p a r t m e n t . E v e r y t i m e I w e n t to a m e e ti n g I w a s to l d I m u s t f ir e
h i m , a n d th e p e r s o n w h o w a s p u s h in g t h a t , t h a t I m u s t f ir e h i m
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s h e a d o f . . .( in t e r v e n t io n )

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

O f th e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t I w a s p o li t ic a l h e a d ,

t h a t i s Tr a n s p o r t a n d S e c u r i ty, n o w I w il l b e t o l d y o u m u s t fi r e t h is
person.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W h o w o u l d t e ll y o u th a t ?

I t w o u l d b e A c e w h o w o u l d b e t e l li n g m e a n d

t h e n t h e r e w i ll b e m e e ti n g s w h e r e i t w il l b e s a id w e t o l d y o u t o f ir e t h i s
p e r s o n , t h e q u e s ti o n w a s w h a t is i t t h a t h e d i d , a n d n o t h i n g c a m e t o i t,
a n d a s G a m a w il l h a v e i t A c e t h e n b e c a m e M E C . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a g a s h u l e .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Oh, Mr Magashule then became MEC for –

in th a t d e p a r t m e n t w h e r e t h is p e r s o n , M r K l a a s , w a s n o w H O D , a n d I
w a t c h e d d e li b e r a t e l y i f h e w a s g o i n g t o f ir e h i m , a n d w h e n I r e a li s e d
t h a t i t w a s n o t h a p p e n i n g I w e n t to h i m a n d s a i d w h y a r e y o u n o t f ir in g
h i m n o w.

A n d h e s a id n o , n o , t h e s e th i n g s d o n ’ t h a p p e n ju s t, y o u h a v e

g o t t o fo ll o w p r o c e s s e s , a n d a t t h e t i m e t h e P r e m ie r w a s M a ’ a m
B e a tr i c e M a r s h o ff , a n d t h e n h e m a n a g e d t o m a k e s u r e th a t M a ’ a m
B e a tr i c e M a r s h o ff w a s a b le t o ta k e M r K l a a s t o th e o ffi c e o f t h e
P r e m i e r, a n d h e c a m e t o m e e x c i t e d t o s a y y o u s e e I w a s a b l e t o d e a l
w i t h h i m , b u t I s a id b u t y o u d id n o t d o w h a t y o u w a n t e d m e t o d o , y o u
20

w a n t e d m e t o d o th is in t h e w r o n g w a y b u t y o u d o th is .
S o I a m tr y i n g to f ig u r e t h a t y o u h a v e a p e r s o n h e r e i n M r
M a g a s h u le w h o fr o m ti m e t o t i m e i n c o r r i d o r s e t c e t e r a w h e r e w e t a l k h e
w a s fr u s tr a t e d b y p r o c e s s e s t h a t th e s e p r o c e s s e s a r e t a k in g t o o l o n g ,
a n d i f it w e r e a c c o r d i n g t o h i m t h e s e p r o c e s s e s h e w o u l d y o u k n o w
d e m o n s t r a t e i t b y t h e f a c t th a t i n 1 9 9 4 w h e n h e w a s M E C f o r Ec o n o m i c

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D e v e l o p m e n t , w h e n h e s u b m i tt e d , a n d t h a t is w h e r e p e o p l e d o n ’ t a l s o
u n d e r s t a n d , h e s u b m i t t e d b ill s to b e d is c u s s e d in t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il
f o r t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f th e s e e n ti t ie s , it w a s t h e in v e s t m e n t a n d a ls o
t o u r is m a n d u n d e r h i s d e p a r t m e n t, b u t t h e y w e r e d e l a y e d a n d e v e r y
ti m e h e b r o u g h t th is s u b m is s i o n i t w o u l d n o t b e d is c u s s e d , s o h e f e lt
t h a t h e c a n a s w e l l g o w i t h o u t t h is l e g is l a ti o n , s o h e w e n t in a n d
e s t a b li s h e d

the

e n ti ti e s

without

a

l e g is la t io n

r e g u la t in g

such

e s t a b li s h m e n t a n d a l s o tr a n s fe r r e d m o n e y t h a t is w h a t t h e y c a l le d fr a u d
a t t h e ti m e a n d c o r r u p ti o n , h e th e n tr a n s f e r r e d m o n e y w h e n t h e r e w a s
10

n o le g is l a ti o n g o v e r n in g th a t e t c e t e r a , i n t o t h is e n t it y, a n d i t w a s t h a t
w h e n th is r e p o r t c a m e o u t t h a t ( in d is ti n c t) L e k o t a r a n a r o u n d w it h it a n d
t h a t is w h a t w e w e r e d e f e n d i n g , a n d w e d e fe n d e d t h a t t h e m o n e y w e n t
b u t o f c o u r s e i t d id n o t g o a s i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o g o i n t e r m s o f
processes.
S o I a m s a y i n g h a d w e n ic k e d t h a t a t th a t l e v e l a l s o to s a y
w h il s t w e ’r e d e f e n d in g y o u b u t y o u w e r e w r o n g in d o i n g t h is , w e d i d n o t
d o th a t , w e f a i l e d d is m a ll y a n d I t h i n k i f d a w n e d t o h i m t h a t if I d o
t h i n g s a n d t h e n I h a v e t h e s u p p o r t o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n I a m p r o t e c te d
a n d I c a n d o t h is , a n d t h i s d e v e lo p e d i n to a c u l t i n th e Fr e e S t a te t h a t

20

everybody if you have something you would have somebody says I can
t a k e y o u t o h i m [ A f r i c a n l a n g u a g e ] t o a s k fo r f o r g iv e n e s s a n d s o m e
p e o p l e h a v e g o n e a n d th e n o n c e y o u a r e g o n e th e n t h i n g s w i ll c h a n g e
a n d m a n y – I r e m e m b e r w e w e n t t o a w e d d i n g a n d th e r e w a s th is
p e r s o n w h o h a d s o m e b u s i n e s s e s a n d it w e n t b a d , a n d h e w a s n o t
happy and he went to speak to Mr Magashule at that wedding and a few

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
w e e k s a f t e r t h a t I s a w a d r a s t ic c h a n g e i n t h is p e r s o n , in s o m e
in s t a n c e s h e w a s d r iv in g a n R 8 , w h e n th e p e r s o n d id n o t h a v e m o n e y t o
p a y a D S T V t h r e e w e e k s b e f o r e th e w e d d i n g .
S o I a m j u s t s a y in g t h e s e a r e s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t y o u s e e
h a p p e n in g a n d I t h i n k o u r f a i l u r e t o d e a l w i t h t h i s a t t h e t i m e w h e n
t h e s e t h in g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g c r e a te d a p r o b l e m a n d p r o b a b ly a ls o i t i s
w h a t a ls o m o t iv a te d m e t o s a y I a m n o t g o i n g to m a k e t h e s a m e
m is t a k e a s I d i d y o u k n o w b e f o r e w h e r e I w i ll p r o t e c t p e o p le w h e n I
k n o w t h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g w r o n g , s o i t is w i t h t h a t i n m i n d t h a t I c o m e t o
10

t h is C o m m i s s io n t o s a y I a m n o t g o in g t o s i t d o w n a n d k e e p q u ie t w h e n
things are happening that are wrong, because – simply because the
p e r s o n th a t – p e o p l e t h a t I a m g o i n g t o ta lk t o a r e p e o p l e t h a t I k n o w,
a n d i n s o m e in s ta n c e s s o m e w e r e g o in g a r o u n d a n d s a y in g th e y h a v e
a s s is t e d m e h o w c a n I s u d d e n ly d e a l w i t h th e m i n t h i s – a n d I a m
s u r p r is e d t h a t th e r e a r e th e s e p e o p le w h o w o u ld g o o u t a n d s a y t h is , s o
n e v e r t h e l e s s w h a t I a m t r y in g to s a y i s I a m h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n t o g i v e
y o u w h a t I k n o w a n d t o t h e b e s t o f m y a b i li ty i n t e r m s o f r a i s i n g is s u e s
t h a t I k n o w a n d is s u e s t h a t h a p p e n e d a n d s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t y o u
s e e h a p p e n i n g . A s I a m s a y i n g I f e e l y o u k n o w w e fa il e d t h e p e o p l e o f

20

t h e F r e e S t a t e w h e n w e d i d n o t a c t a t t h e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e s u p p o s e d
t o h a v e a c t e d , a n d I h a v e le a r n t my l e s s o n t h a t y o u d o n ’ t a l lo w
s o m e t h i n g s m a ll t o fe s t e r a n d o n c e i t h a s g r o w n y o u a r e n o t g o in g t o b e
a b l e t o d e a l w i t h i t a n d th is is o n e l e s s o n i n li f e th a t I h a v e l e a r n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s , y o u s k e tc h f o r t h e C h a ir t h e e i g h t

t o p ic s w h i c h y o u w il l b e a d d r e s s i n g i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a n d y o u d o s o o n

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p a g e 11 w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 3 6 . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e m e n ti o n i n to
t h e r e c o r d s t h o s e t o p ic s th a t y o u w il l b e c a n v a s s in g i n t h is C o m m is s i o n
d u r i n g t h e s e s s i o n o f y o u r te s ti m o n y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I a m g o i n g to b e d e a li n g w i t h th e a s b e s to s

e r a d ic a ti o n a u d i t w h ic h I r e fe r r e d t o e a r li e r a s t h e a s b e s t o s h e is t . T h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t w h ic h a l s o a s w e s a i d is a h e is t a n d
t h e r o l e o f N d a b le k i Si w e [? ] a n d t h e o p e r a t io n c l u s t e r

medium

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s p r o c u r e m e n t , t h e Ex e c u tiv e C o u n c i l m e e t i n g s a n d
s a n i ti s i n g f o r e n s i c r e p o r ts a n d th e in t e r n a t io n a l s c h o l a r s h ip p r o g r a m .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y n o w w e tu r n t o t h e f ir s t t o p ic

w h ic h .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

S o r r y M r – t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE: Sorry Mr Mokoena could you please perhaps
take Mr Dukwana through paragraph 34.
CHAIRPERSON: 24?
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

3 4 , t h r e e f o u r C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
20

Ye s , th a n k y o u .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a y o u m e n t io n e d t o t h e

p a tr o n a g e , d o y o u w a n t t o m e n ti o n s p e c i fi c s i n r e l a ti o n to t h a t
paragraph 34?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n e a r li e r o n I m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u

k n o w y o u h a v e X , y o u h a v e a ll th e s e t h i n g s t h a t a r e m e a n t to h e lp u s ,

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y o u h a v e t h e C o n s t it u ti o n , w e h a v e th e P u b l ic F in a n c e M a n a g e m e n t
A c t, w e h a v e g o t e v e r y t h in g t h a t i f w e w e r e t o f o l l o w w h a t is i n s id e
t h e r e w e w o u l d a c t u a ll y b e h a v i n g d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t f u n c ti o n p r o p e r ly,
b u t a s y s t e m , t h e y s a y i f y o u w a n t t o fi g h t t h e s y s t e m y o u d o n ’ t f i g h t i t,
y o u c r e a t e y o u r o w n s y s te m t h a t w i ll r e n d e r t h i s o n e o b s o le t e , a n d in
t h e Fr e e S ta t e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I a m s o r r y, b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d Mr D u k w a n a I

t h i n k t h a t p a r a g r a p h 3 3 le a d s n i c e ly t o 3 4 , s o I th i n k b e f o r e y o u g o t o
3 4 y o u m ig h t w is h to . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

D e a l w i t h 3 3 a s w e ll ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y I in t e r r u p t e d y o u , b u t I j u s t w a n t e d t o a l e r t
y o u t o th a t . Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o t h a t 3 3 C h a ir p e r s o n y o u s e e w h e n y o u

h a v e a p e r s o n lik e M r M a g a s h u l e w e t h o u g h t a t th e t i m e t h a t y o t h is
m a n h a s b r a i n s , w h o c o u l d r e m e m b e r w h o i s t h e s u p p l y c h a in m a n a g e r
in th is o ffic e , w h o i s in t h e m u n ic i p a l o ffic e s , w h o is t h e S p e a k e r, w h o
is th e m u n ic i p a l m a n a g e r, h e w o u l d k n o w t h e s e p e o p le b y n a m e , a n d
b e c a u s e h e w o u l d tr a v e l , h e w o u ld g o , h e w o u ld v is i t, h e w il l d o – b u t
w h a t is v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g a ls o h e w o u l d k n o w t h a t th e r e is a v a c a n c y o f a
20

c le r k , a v a c a n c y o f o f y o u k n o w l o w e r r a n k in g o ff ic ia ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P o s it i o n s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

P o s i ti o n s a n d l o w e r p o s i ti o n s , h e w o u ld

k n o w e x a c tly i n e a c h m u n ic i p a li ty a n d e v e n w h e n w e w e r e s i t ti n g a t th e
d e p lo y m e n t c o m m i t t e e s o m e t i m e s w e w o u l d lo o k a t t h i s a n d n a m e s w il l
c o m e a n d y o u a r e h o p in g t h a t l e t’s a l lo w t h e p r o c e s s e s a n d l e t ’s g e t

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t h e p e r s o n , t h e n y o u w il l s e e th a t h e k n o w s th is o n e , y o u k n o w s o a t
t h e t i m e w e w e r e r e a l ly i m p r e s s e d th a t w e h a v e g o t a p e r s o n w h o h a s
k e e n in t e r e s t i n k n o w in g p e o p l e h e w o r k e d w i t h .
L i t tl e d i d w e k n o w t h a t it w a s n o t i n t e n d e d i n t h e w a y t h a t w e
t h o u g h t i t w a s , a n d a s o n e w i ll d e m o n s tr a te l a te r t h a t w h e n I s a i d a
s y s te m w a s b u il t i n th e Fr e e S t a t e , a s y s t e m o f p a t r o n a g e , in s til li n g
f e a r, y o u k n o w d is p e n s i n g p a tr o n a g e in s t il li n g f e a r a n d t o a l a r g e
e x t e n t C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t m a n y s tr u c t u r e s w e r e c o m p r o m is e d .

Yo u c a n

g o t o t h e p o lic e in t h e Fr e e S t a te , m a n y o f th e m y o u k n o w v e r y m u c h
10

c o m p r o m is e d , fr o m t h e h ig h e s t l e v e l t o d o w n .
Yo u

go

to

the

Judiciary

C h a ir p e r s o n ,

remember

that

I

m e n ti o n e d t h a t , y o u g o t o t h e J u d i c i a r y a n d t h a t is v e r y i n te r e s t i n g t h a t
I a m m a k in g t h is ju s t to d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t t h e r e is a l s o a c a s e o f
d e f a m a ti o n o f c h a r a c t e r b y o n e p e r s o n w h o c l a i m e d t h a t h e w a n t e d to
b u il d – e s ta b l is h t h i s m o v e m e n t , AT M , a n d t h e fa c t t h a t h e is t a k i n g i t
t o Bl o e m f o n t e in I p e r s o n a lly h a v e s a i d t o o t h e r p e o p le t h e r e is a r e a s o n
t h a t h e is t a k i n g i t to B l o e m f o n t e in , b e c a u s e h e k n o w s i n B lo e m f o n te i n
h e w i ll n o t lo s e t h e c a s e , a n d I a m s a y in g t h is . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I ’ m s o r r y t h is is t h e c a s e o f w h o t a k in g th e

d e f a m a ti o n o f c h a r a c t e r . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Mr Magashule, remember the ANC is

in v e s t i g a t in g a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t d u r i n g th e e l e c ti o n t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o
a c t u a ll y c o n t r i b u t e d o r w o r k e d i n e s t a b li s h in g a p a r ty, I t h i n k i t i s AT M ,
a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a p e r s o n w h o c a m e f o r w a r d w i t h in f o r m a t io n t o s a y
a n d s t a r t e d m e n ti o n i n g Mr M a g a s h u l e a n d o t h e r s a n d M r M a g a s h u l e

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e n d e d u p t a k i n g t h e p e r s o n t o c o u r t, d e m a n d i n g t h a t y o u k n o w t h is h a s
a c t u a ll y b e s m i r c h e d h i s n a m e a n d a ll t h o s e t h i n g s , s o – a n d w h e n w e
r e a l is e d th a t i t w a s t a k e n to t h e H i g h C o u r t y o u k n o w in B l o e m f o n te i n ,
m e p e r s o n a ll y a n d s o m e o f m y fr ie n d s a n d s o m e p e o p l e w h o k n o w w h a t
is h a p p e n in g i n th a t s p a c e w e t h e n s a i d w e l l h e k n o w s t h a t h e is g o i n g
t o g e t a v e r d ic t th a t w il l f a v o u r h i m a n d i t w il l a c t u a l ly m a k e i t v e r y
d i ff ic u l t fo r t h a t C o m m i s s i o n t o e v e n s t a r t w o r k i n g . H e w il l g e t a v e r d ic t
t h a t w i ll fa v o u r h i m .
A n d w e a r e s a y i n g t h is w i th u t m o s t h u m i l it y b e c a u s e w e fe e l
10

t h a t o n c e a s a c t iv i s t s , a s m e m b e r s o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n i n th e F r e e S t a t e
it is a c t u a l ly h e f e e l i n g t h a t w e s h a r e w i t h m a n y p e o p l e , w e h a v e s e e n
t h is i n a c ti o n , a n d t h e r e is a c t u a l ly o n e p e r s o n w h o is in v o lv e d i n a ll
t h is a s a l e g a l p e r s o n , a s a n a t t o r n e y, w h o w i ll b e t h e r e e v e r y ti m e t h e
A N C t a k e s y o u to c o u r t , if y o u t a k e t h e A N C to c o u r t w h a t e v e r t h e
a tt o r n e y t h a t w o u l d b e t h a t w i ll b e ta k i n g t h e m a t t e r w i ll b e t h is o n e ,
y o u k n o w w e k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g , a n d I c a n n o t m e n t io n t h e p e r s o n
b e c a u s e t h is – w e d i d n o t m a k e h i m a w a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t I a m j u s t s a y in g t h e r e i s th is p e r s o n w h o

20

is a n a t t o r n e y i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e w h o f a c i li ta t e s s o m e o f t h e s e t h in g s
a n d th e n w e k n o w e x a c tly w h a t is h a p p e n i n g , a n d s o m e o f t h e
u tt e r a n c e s o f s o m e o f th e p e o p l e a b o u t w h e n p e o p le a r e p r o u d ly
in d i c a t in g th a t i f y o u h a v e a c a s e y o u c a n b r in g i t to u s , w e w il l h e lp
y o u s q u a s h th e c a s e , s o I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h e r e i s th a t f e e l in g
( in d is ti n c t) is r i f e i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e , t h a t s o m e o f o u r p e o p l e w h o a r e

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s e r v i n g in t h e J u d ic i a r y i n th e Fr e e S t a t e a r e r e a l ly c o m p r o m is e d a n d
s o m e o f t h e m , s o m e o f th e m w e r e a ls o d o i n g b u s in e s s a t s o m e s t a g e
w i t h t h e Pr o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t .
S o m e w o u ld h a v e a . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t b e f o r e t h e y b e c a m e J u d g e s o r w h a t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J a , i t w a s b e fo r e t h e y b e c a m e ju d g e s

a n d s o m e w i ll h a v e t h e ir w iv e s a l s o w o r k in g d o i n g b u s i n e s s w i th
g o v e r n m e n t , s o w e k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n th e Fr e e S t a te a n d a s I
s a y y o u h a v e g o t a s y s t e m r u n n i n g p a r a l le l to w h a t y o u s e e , w h e n
10

t h i n g s a r e w r o n g t h is s y s t e m t h a t y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e d o i n g y o u
k n o w p e o p le w i ll o n ly c o m p ly.
A n e x a m p l e w h e n I m e n t io n a ll t h e s e t h i n g s is th e f a c t t h a t y o u
s e e a ls o p a s t o r s , y o u ’v e g o t s o m a n y p a s t o r s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l b e fo r e y o u g o to p a s to r s y o u k n o w y o u

m e n ti o n e d w h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d i n r e g a r d t o w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n
t h e F r e e S t a t e i n r e l a ti o n to l i ti g a t io n t h a t g o e s t o I t a k e i t y o u a r e
r e fe r r i n g t o th e H i g h C o u r ts , I m a y b e w r o n g b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r I
m a y h a v e r e a d a n y t h i n g a l o n g th o s e l i n e s , I h a p p e n to h a v e b e e n t o
h a v e s a t t o g e t h e r w i t h m y c o l le a g u e s in t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t i n t h e
20

m a t t e r th a t w a s b r o u g h t to t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t b e f o r e M a n g a u n g
C o n f e r e n c e in 2 0 1 2 , t h a t m a t t e r a s y o u s h o u l d r e m e m b e r h a d s t a r t e d a t
t h e H i g h C o u r t i n th e Fr e e S t a t e .

I d o n ’t k n o w, I s e e m t o h a v e th e

i m p r e s s io n t h a t m a y b e e i th e r s o m e t h in g t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n w r i t t e n i n
s o m e a ff id a v i t o r m a y b e s o m e th i n g t h a t s o m e o r o t h e r c o u n s e l m ig h t
h a v e m e n ti o n e d d u r i n g a r g u m e n t b u t I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e r e

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w a s s o m e s ta t e m e n t t h a t I h e a r d t h a t s e e m s to b e i n l i n e w i th a
c o n c e r n s i m i la r t o th e l in e t h a t y o u a r e m e n ti o n i n g .
N o w I w o u l d lik e y o u a n d a ll t h o s e w h o h a v e g o t i n f o r m a t i o n ,
e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h a t u n e a s i n e s s , t o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d g iv e th a t
in f o r m a ti o n t o t h e C o m m is s i o n , b e c a u s e o f a ll t h e a r m s o f t h e S t a t e th e
J u d ic i a r y i s t h e o n e a r m w h e r e p e o p l e s h o u l d f e e l c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t i f
t h e y b r i n g c a s e s t h o s e c a s e s w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h i m p a r t ia lly, w i t h o u t f e a r,
f a v o u r o r p r e j u d ic e a n d it w o u l d b e a m a t t e r o f g r a v e c o n c e r n , e v e n i f
t h e r e w a s j u s t a p e r c e p ti o n s o o n e w o u ld l ik e t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e is a
10

f a c tu a l b a s is f o r t h e p e r c e p t io n , s o t h a t if t h e r e i s th a t c a n b e d e a l t
w i t h , b u t i f t h e r e is n ’ t t h e n th e N a ti o n c a n b e t o l d b o l d l y t h a t t h a t
p e r c e p t io n h a s g o t n o fa c t u a l b a s i s .
S o th a t i s w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o h a p p e n , s o th a t t h o s e c o n c e r n s
can be looked at and if there are facts to it, we can look at them. So
t h a t ’s w h a t I w o u l d l ik e y o u , I w o u l d l ik e t o s a y to y o u a n d t o a l l t h o s e
w h o m a n y k n o w w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d h a v e g o t in f o r m a t io n .
O k a y is th a t r i g h t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t h i n k m a n y o f u s w il l b e p r e p a r e d t o d o

that.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , p l e a s e , j a , i t i s n o t in t h e i n te r e s t o f th e c o u n t r y
t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n y s u c h p e r c e p ti o n a n d i t s h o u l d n o t b e r e s o lv e d
o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W e w il l d o th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o a s I w a s s a y i n g w i th r e g a r d to t h i s

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d is p e n s i n g o f p a tr o n a g e b u t fo r t h e m t o b e d o i n g s o m e t h i n g s , I a m j u s t
m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e o f s o m e o f t h i n g s th a t h a v e h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR

MXOLISI

D U K WA N A :

And

if

you

check

here

at

34.1

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I i n te r r u p t e d y o u w h il e y o u w e r e g o i n g to t h e

p a s to r s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h a t i s w h e r e I a m h e a d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , t h a t is w h e r e y o u a r e g o i n g .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is n o t fo o d C h a ir.

Yo u w o u l d h a v e C h a ir

t h e – t h e r e is a p a s to r w e l l k n o w n in t h e F r e e S t a t e N t a te M o r u ti D a n ie l
Mothobi Lekota.

Yo u w o u l d f in d t h a t h e w a s a p p o i n te d a s D e p u t y

D ir e c t o r R e s e a r c h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P o lic e R o a d s a n d Tr a n s p o r t a n d
h e w a s b o r n o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J u ly 1 9 4 8 , a n d if y o u t a k e , y o u l o o k in t o t h e
p o s i ti o n w h e n h e t o o k y o u k n o w t h e p o s i t i o n e ffe c tiv e ly i t w a s t h e 1 s t o f
A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 , a n d a t t h e t i m e h e w a s a t th e a g e o f 6 7 .
N o w a ll I a m r a i s i n g i s th e s e t h i n g s w o u l d o n ly h a p p e n i n
P r o v i n c e s w h e r e y o u h a v e u n d e r m in e d s y s t e ms . T h i s is t h e r e t ir e m e n t
a g e a n d t h e r e is n o s y s t e m t h a t – i n th e P u b l ic A d m i n is tr a ti o n th a t w il l
20

w e lc o m e , th a t w il l d o t h is . It h a p p e n e d a ls o w i th . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e a n w h e r e s o m e b o d y w h o h a s g o n e b e y o n d

r e tir e m e n t a g e w o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d a fr e s h ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I don’t know what happened because the

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
s y s te m

i ts e l f

w i ll r e j e c t

th a t .

For

instance

we

had

an

HOD,

u n f o r t u n a t e ly h e p a s s e d o n , a n d w h e n th e y c o u l d n o t r e n e w h is c o n tr a c t
b e c a u s e o f h is a g e h e w a s th e n t a k e n t o th e L i n d e la n i, w e c a l l t h a t
L i n d e la n i t h e o ffi c e o f t h e Pr e m i e r, if y o u a r e o n y o u r w a y o u t th e r e ’s a
c o l l e c ti o n o r a r e a t h a t w il l b e t h e o ffic e o f th e P r e m i e r, y o u w i ll s t a y
t h e r e a n d t h e n y o u s ti ll g e t t h e p a c k s a n d a l l t h a t a n d a f te r w a r d s y o u
e i t h e r d e c i d e t o le a v e b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t d o i n g a n y th in g , o r y o u s t a y.
S o m a n y o th e r p e o p le w h o w e r e H O D ’s a n d a t t h e e n d w e r e d e m o t e d o r
w h a t e v e r fr o m t h e p o s i t io n , t h e y w il l g o t o L i n d e la n i, t o t h e O ffi c e o f
10

t h e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : To L i n d e la n i?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : L in d e l a n i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e L i n d e l a n i m e a n s .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t ’s t a k e n fr o m w h e n p e o p l e a r e b e in g

d e p o r t e d e tc e t e r a th e y w o u l d . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h e r e y o u w a i t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s w h e r e y o u w a i t a n d t h e n y o u w i ll b e

d e p o r t e d , s o w e w o u l d u s e s u c h w o r d s i n r e f e r e n c e to w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g i n t h e o ff ic e a t t h e t i m e , t h a t y e s , i f h e i s n o t c o m f o r t a b l e
20

w i t h y o u a s a n H O D , i f y o u a r e n o t r e m o v e d y o u w il l e n d u p a t L i n d e l a n i
a n d th e n w e k n o w y o u ’r e m o v i n g , y e s .
T h e r e is a n e x a m p le o f o n e p e r s o n , h e is a c t u a ll y g o o d , h e i s a
g o o d H O D , h e w a s a n H O D a n d e n d e d u p b e c o m i n g a C E O o f a n e n ti t y
in t h e F r e e S t a t e , a n d n o w h e is a t L i n d e la n i . S o i t g o e s t h a t w a y, i f
y o u a r e n o t w a n t e d y o u g o t o L in d e l a n i .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n L in d e l a n i is s t ill t h e r e n o w, o r y o u m e a n a t
t h a t ti m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n w e a r e d e a li n g w it h a s y s t e m , i t
d o e s n ’t m e a n , i t d o e s n o t m a t te r w h e t h e r t h e p e r s o n is t h e r e o r n o t , th e
s y s te m i s s ti ll th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u m e a n t h e s y s t e m c o n ti n u e d b e y o n d th e t h e

ti m e o f th e fo r m e r Pr e m i e r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is c o n t in u in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : U n t il y o u d e a l w it h t h e s y s t e m i t is n o t g o i n g
t o – a s I s a y y o u c a n d o w h a t e v e r n o w, y o u c a n p u t a n y p e r s o n y o u
t h i n k i s b e t t e r w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o d o a n y th in g m e a n i n g f u l i n th a t
P r o v i n c e u p u n ti l y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h th e s y s t e m t h a t h a s b e e n
in tr o d u c e d i n t h e Fr e e S t a te , w h e r e p e o p l e w o u l d d is r e g a r d p r o c e s s e s
a n d f e e l n o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d , a n d p e o p le w il l ju s t p l a y d u m b , I s a w
o n e w i tn e s s s o m e ti m e w h o w a s h e r e a n d c o u l d n o t a ls o , I m e a n th is is
a b r i g h t g u y, h e is b r i g h t , q u a l i fi e d , h ig h ly q u a li fi e d p e r s o n , s o m e o f t h e
t h i n g s t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g h e r e y o u c o u l d t h e d i ffi c u l ty a s a p e r s o n
a c c e p ti n g , h e w o u l d j u s t ta k e r e s p o n s ib ili t y a n d t a k in g t h e f a ll f o r

20

o th e r s , b u t w h e n t h e p e r s o n k n o w s e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d y o u k n o w
a n d p e o p l e w il l p l a y s t u p i d , b u t t h e y a r e n o t s t u p i d , t h e y k n o w w h a t is
h a p p e n in g a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e s u c h c h a r a c t e r s i n th e P r o v i n c e
w h o w o u l d r a th e r p r o t e c t i n d i v i d u a ls a n d t a k e th e f a l l th a n t o e x p o s e
t h is in d iv i d u a l , s o t h a t is t h e p r o b l e m th a t w e h a v e , t h a t is th e s y s te m
that I am talking about, the system if you get, as I say if you go to any

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
d e p a r t m e n t y o u g e t – a n d a n y m u n ic ip a li ti e s t h e s y s te m t h a t I a m
t a lk in g a b o u t C h a ir a n d w h y I a m s a y in g t h i s i n c o n s i s te n c y th e r e ’s a
c a s e i n I t h in k i n 2 0 0 0 , w h e r e a p e r s o n , I w i ll m e n ti o n t h e n a m e ,
b e c a u s e I h a d s p o k e n t o h i m a t l e n g th , h e w a s a c o u n c i ll o r, K e ts o
To t u m a k u m i [? ] , h e r e i s a p e r s o n w h o w a s a m a y o r d u r in g t h e tr a n s i ti o n
p e r i o d , o r d u r in g t h e tr a n s i ti o n l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t a n d i n t h e N o r t h e r n
Fr e e S t a te a t t h e ti m e a n d I w i ll s h o w y o u C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t h o w
in c o n s is t e n t w e a r e i n a p p ly i n g t h i s .
T h i s c o m r a d e w a s o n e o f t h e c o mr a d e s w h e n th e y w e r e
10

a p p r o a c h i n g 1 9 9 7 , s o m e w h e r e 1 9 9 7 / 1 9 9 8 b y Mr M a g a s h u le .

At the

ti m e y o u w il l r e m e m b e r w e w e r e , i t w a s i n 2 0 0 0 t h e A N C P C h a d b e e n
d is s o lv e d a n d t h e r e w a s a n I L C u n d e r th e le a d e r s h i p o f N d u m u s a l a a n d
the

late

Novimgomba,

and

Mr

M a g a s h u le

approached

many

m u n i c i p a li t ie s a t t h a t ti m e i n t h e N o r t h e r n F r e e S t a t e a n d a s k in g t h e m
to

consider

the

p r i v a t is a ti o n

of

w a te r

s y s te m ,

within

t h e ir

m u n i c i p a li t ie s , a n d it w a s t h a t ( i n d is t in c t) m u n ic i p a l it y S a s o lb e r g , th e
Tr a n s i ti o n a l L o c a l C o u n c i l , t h a t r e j e c t e d t h a t a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s
le a d i n g t h a t w a s ( i n d is t in c t) s o th is ( i n d is ti n c t) w a s t h e n e le c t e d a s a
m a y o r, a s a n e x e c u t iv e m a y o r b u t i t w a s n o t b e f o r e h e w a s d i s c o u r a g e d
20

b y M r M a g a s h u l e n o t t o s ta n d , w h e r e h e w a n t e d h e e v e n e n c o u r a g e d
h i m t o g o t o s c h o o l t h a t h e h a s m o r e ( i n d i s t in c t ) f u n d s fo r h i m t o g o t o
s c h o o l , b u t h e r e j e c t e d t h a t, a n d h e e n d e d u p b e i n g ( i n d is t in c t ) .

He

w a s t h e n a p p r o a c h e d b y th e n t h e R e g i o n a l S e c r e t a r y, D e p u t y R e g io n a l
S e c r e t a r y a n d t h e C h a ir, w it h o u t m e n ti o n i n g t h e ir n a m e s , a n d t h e n t o
a p p o i n t c e r t a in , w h e n h e w a s a p p o in t e d t h e E x e c u t iv e M a y o r h e w a s

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t h e n a s k e d b y t h e s e i n d iv id u a ls w h e n h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d th a t t h e y
s h o u l d p u t s o m e p e o p le , t h e m a j o r it y o f t h e s e p e o p l e w h o w e r e c o m in g
fr o m P a r y s t o b e m e m b e r s o f t h e m a y o r a l c o m m i t t e e a n d t o t h i s h e
r e j e c t e d , r e f u s e d t o d o t h a t, b u t w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d w a s t h e h is
r e fu s a l w a s in f o r m e d b y t h e fa c t th a t i t w a s n o t c o m in g fr o m a n y
s tr u c t u r e , h e w a s p a r t o f th e o r i g in a l , o u r W C , th e o r i g i n a l W o r k in g
C o m m i t t e e a n d t h e I L C a t t h e ti m e h a d n o t p r o n o u n c e d i ts e lf o n th a t ,
a n d w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d to To t o h e th e n h a d a tr i p t o C h in a a n d t h e n
a l o n g th e w a y, b e c a u s e th e r e w a s th r e a t s o f a t y p h o o n e t c e t e r a , I’ m
10

ju s t . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e s e c o n d , is th a t s t i ll i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t o r is i t

s o m e t h i n g o u ts i d e y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t d e a ls w i th d i s p e n s i n g o f p a tr o n a g e , I a m

ju s t m e n ti o n i n g a n e x a m p l e o f t h is , t h a t I s a i d a b o u t t h i s p a tr o n a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e n h e w e n t t o C h in a , u n fo r t u n a t e l y

t h e r e w a s a p r o b le m , t h e y h a d t o g o th r o u g h S p a i n a n d h is b a g w a s le f t
h e r e a n d h e d i d n o t h a v e c l o th e s to c h a n g e , t h e y p h o n e d b a c k , t h e n
t h e y s a i d h e c a n u s e h is c r e d i t c a r d , b u t w h e n – a n d h e d i d n o t , h e
20

u s e d th e c r e d i t c a r d , a l m o s t a b o u t R 3 0 0 l e s s th a n t h a t a n d t h e n w h e n
h e c a m e b a c k w i t h th e y o u k n o w, w h e n h e c a m e b a c k w it h t h e in t e n t i o n
o f p a y in g b e c a u s e it w a s – h e w a s a d v is e d .

W h a t a c t u a l ly b e c a m e a

p r o b le m C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o p o i n t t o y o u , is t h a t i n 2 0 0 0
w h e n w e w e r e e l e c t e d a s i n t h e l e a d e r s h i p a n d th e f ir s t c a s u a l ty w a s
t h is m a n , h e w a s t h e n r e m o v e d a n d t h e a r g u m e n t w a s th a t h e w a s

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r e m o v e d f o r u s in g t h e c r e d i t c a r d , t h e o ffic i a l c r e d i t c a r d a n d t h e
a r g u m e n t w a s t h a t t h e c r e d it c a r d w a s w r it t e n g o o d i e s t h e s t a te m e n t
a n d f o r th a t i t w a s s e e n t h a t th e p e r s o n h a d a c t u a l ly g o n e i n a n d w a s
p a y i n g f o r p r o s t it u t e s a t t h e ti m e , a n d t h a t is w h a t w a s s a i d in t h e
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I t h i n k w e m u s t . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C a n I a ls o r e q u e s t y o u th a t w e d e a l –

t h a t ’s w h y I a v o i d e d y o u t o g o i n t o 3 4 , I w a s h a p p y t h e w a y y o u ’ v e
d e a lt w i t h i t b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u ’v e c o n v e y e d th e m e s s a g e . C a n w e tr y
10

t o d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s t h a t a r e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : .. . I n t h e s ta t e m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: In the statement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

To t h e e x t e n t w h e r e y o u m i g h t s e e k t o

c la r i fy c e r ta i n i s s u e s it m u s t n o t b e o u t s i d e t h e a m b i t o f t h e s t a te m e n t
a n d w e a r e tr y in g to d o s o i n o r d e r t o b e f a ir to o t h e r i n d iv id u a l s ,
e n t i ti e s , t h a t m ig h t n o t b e h e r e w h o m i g h t s i m p ly b e m e n t io n e d fo r t h e
fir s t t i m e a n d fo r u s a l s o t o b e c a u g h t b y s u r p r i s e b y th e e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , b u t a ls o M r D u k w a n a w h il e o n e a c c e p t s th a t

t h e r e m i g h t b e , t h a t n o t e v e r y t h i n g y o u s a y m i g h t b e i n t h e s ta t e m e n t,
t h e r e m i g h t b e a d d i ti o n s b u t o n e d o e s n o t e x c e p t t o o m u c h o f a d e t o u r
o r d e p a r t u r e fr o m th e s ta t e m e n t, a n d t h e a d v a n ta g e o f h a v i n g t h e
s t a te m e n t i s t h a t b o t h y o u r l e g a l t e a m a n d t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m
h a v e l o o k e d a t t h e s t a te m e n t , t h e y k n o w w h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o s a y b u t
o n c e y o u g o o u ts id e i t t o o m u c h y o u m ig h t s a y th i n g s t h a t th e y w o u l d

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h a v e s a i d i t i s n o t p r o p e r to g o i n t o , s o i t’s – t h e r e i s w is d o m i n s t ic k in g
t o i t b u t a s I s a y i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t y o u c a n n o t d e p a r t a t a l l, b u t a
li m i te d d e p a r t u r e w h e n t h e r e a r e g r o u n d s t o j u s t if y i t is u n d e r s t a n d a b l e ,
b u t o n e t h e d e p a r t u r e is t o o m u c h t h e n th e r e m a y b e a p r o b le m .
O k a y, a lr i g h t , M r M o k o e n a c o n t in u e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I ta k e th e c o u n s e l C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e th e
– a n d I a m n o t a r g u i n g t h e p o i n t f u r t h e r, a ll t h a t I n e e d e d w i t h t h i s w a s
ju s t t o d e m o n s tr a te t h a t i n t e r m s o f ta k i n g d e c i s i o n s in s o m e c a s e s y o u
10

m a y h a v e a p e r s o n w i th t h i s a n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t o t h e r p e o p l e w it h –
w h o h a d d o n e a lo t o f d a m a g e a n d n o t h i n g w a s d o n e t o t h e m , s o i t w a s
w i t h t h a t i n mi n d b u t I t a k e y o u r c o u n s e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , a n d i f t h e r e is a n y th in g e l s e w h a t y o u m i g h t
n o t h a v e i n c lu d e d i n th e s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u t h i n k is i m p o r ta n t y o u c a n
la t e r o n ta lk to y o u r c o u n s e l a n d i f th e r e is a n e e d t o d o a
supplementary statement that can be done, okay thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Chair I was just about to move to the

s p e c i f ic t o p ic s a n d t h e fir s t o n e b e i n g t h e a s b e s to s e r a d ic a t i o n a u d i t .
I t i s q u i t e a n i n v o l v e d t o p ic M r C h a ir, a n d s u b j e c t t o d i r e c t i o n s i f w e
20

m a y h a v e a n e a r ly s ta r t to m o r r o w a n d d e a l w it h i t r i g h t a w a y r a t h e r
t h a n to d e a l w i th it n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o n d e r w h e t h e r y o u d o n ’ t t h in k w e s h o u l d t a k e – g o
a l i t tl e f u r th e r, e v e n i f it i s u p t o q u a r t e r t o fiv e , y o u t h i n k i f w e
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

I m i g h t m e n t io n t h e n a m e s w h i c h I a m

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27 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 150
n o t s u p p o s e d t o m e n ti o n , i t ’s l a t e in th e a f t e r n o o n a n d I t h i n k t h a t I
n e e d t o r e s tr u c t u r e t h a t – th o s e a g r e e m e n t s c a r e f u l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I s e e c o u n s e l f o r Mr D u k w a n a a g r e e s .

So

a lr i g h t th e n to m o r r o w w h a t ti m e w o u l d y o u lik e to s t a r t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N i n e o ’c lo c k s h o u ld b e s u ff ic ie n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , is t h a t fi n e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is i n o r d e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e w i ll a d j o u r n n o w t h e n a n d t h e n w e w il l

c o m m e n c e a t n in e o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . W e a d j o u r n .
10

R E G I S T R A R : A ll r is e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 8 A U G U S T 2 0 1 9

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