C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

2 7 J U LY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 3 8

22 Woodlands Drive
Irene Woods, Centurion
TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088
MOBILE: 066 513 1757
info@gautengtranscribers.co.za

CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

27 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 7 J U LY 2 0 2 0
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r H u l l e y, g o o d m o r n i n g
e v e r y b o d y. S w i t c h o n y o u r m i c r o p h o n e .
ADV HULLEY SC: Good morning Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are we ready?
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

We

–

I

believe

we

are

re a d y

Mr

Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON:
c o n d i t i o n e r.
10

Ye s.

I t h i n k t h e y m u st s w i t ch o ff t h e a i r

Thank you.

I t s o m e t i m e s i n t e rf e r e s w i t h t h e

h e a ri n g – w h a t p e o p l e s a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t . We c a n st a rt .
ADV HULLEY SC:
Chairman.
N k o si n a t h i

M r C h a i rm a n – t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r

M r C h a i r t h i s m o r n i n g i s t h e e vi d e n c e o f Mr
Nhleko.

several witnesses.

Mr

N h l e ko

has been

implicated

by

H e h a s – h e h a s d e p o s e d t o a ff i d a vi t s i n

re s p e ct o f t w o o f t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a ve i m p l i ca t e d h i m .
T h e o n e w i t n e s s i s M r R o b e rt M c B ri d e a n d y o u w i l l – y o u
h a ve g r a n t e d l e a v e f o r h i m t o l e a d e vi d e n ce t o b e q u e st i o n e d
20

a n d t o b e – a n d t o c ro s s – e x a m i n e M r M c B ri d e .
M r M c B ri d e o n S u n d a y a f t e r n o o n p r o vi d e d u s w i t h –
t h r o u g h h i s a t t o r n e y s p r o vi d e d u s w i t h a n a ff i d a vi t i n w h i c h
h e e x p l a i n s w h y i t i s t h a t h e w o u l d n o t b e p r e s e n t t o d a y.
C o u n se l h a s b e e n a p p o i n t e d t o a d d r e s s y o u o n t h e – t h e
q u e st i o n o f w h y h e i s n o t p r e s e n t t o d a y a n d I w a n t t o f i r st
Page 3 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
take

you

through

the

bundles

and

sh o w

yo u

where

is

a p p l i ca t i o n o r r a t h e r w h e r e h i s a ff i d a vi t i s i n t h e b u n d l e s
b e f o r e I c a l l u p o n C o u n s e l w h o a p p e a r s f o r M r M c B ri d e t o
e x p l a i n t o y o u t h e ci r cu m st a n ce s f o r h i s a b s e n ce t o d a y.
T h e b u n d l e f o r t o d a y c o n si st o f a s e r i e s o f d o cu m e n t s
o r b u n d l e s w h i c h c o m p ri s e w h a t w e r e f e r t o a s E x h i b i t Y 8
s e r i e s M r C h a i r.

T h e – i f I ca n t a k e y o u t o t h e f i r st o n e o f

t h o se d o c u m e n t s w h i c h i s E x h i b i t Y 8 . 1 . T h a t M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s st a rt w i t h B u n d l e – w h a t …
10

ADV HULLEY SC: It has got a Bundle A.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d o – w h a t d o s u g g e st t h e b u n d l e

should be called?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o rr y i t i s E x h i b i t Y 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: I see on mine it says Exhibit.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 8 A b u t I u n d e r st a n d t h e – i f y o u sa y b u n d l e
w h a t e v e r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I t sh o u l d s a y B u n d l e A I a m n o t s u r e .

It

s h o u l d h a v e sa i d B u n d l e A .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle A.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u w o u l d h a ve t o c h e c k b e c a u s e

t h e r e m a y h a ve b e e n a n o t h e r B u n d l e A i n a n o t h e r w o r k
st re a m .
ADV HULLEY SC: Sorry it is the bundle – it is the Bundle A
Page 4 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
in the Y8 range.

S o Y 8 c o n si st s o f b u n d l e s A a l l t h e w a y

t h r o u g h t o b u n d l e H b u t a l l u n d e r t h e Y 8 st r e a m .

So if you

c o n si d e r t h e s p i n e t h e r e s h o u l d b e a Y 8 o n t h e s p i n e t h a t
s h o w s t h a t i t i s E x h i b i t Y 8 a n d t h e n t h e re i s – t h e r e i s a
number of documents that come under the Y8 range. So the
f i r st …
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s m a k e d i ff e r e n c e t h e b u n d l e s a n d

e x h i b i t s f i r st .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e e x h i b i t s w i l l b e t h e a ct u a l a ff i d a vi t s

a n d d o c u m e n t s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: The box – the file would be bundle what, Y
or bundle?
ADV HULLEY SC: So it will – the box would be Bundle A.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o yo u w o u l d – so y o u w o u l d h a v e

Bundle A all the way to Bundle H.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e e xh i b i t s w o u l d a l l b e u n d e r t h e

E x h i b i t Y H – s o rr y Y 8 r a n g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja I think there is a Bundle B and I think if
t h e r e i s a B u n d l e B t h e r e m u st b e a B u n d l e A .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n a n o t h e r w o r k st re a m . I t h i n k t h e P R A S A
Page 5 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
w o r k st r e a m i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n .

S o I t h i n k w e m u st b e –

w e n e e d t o b e c re a t i v e o n t h i s o n e .

Maybe we should call it

Bundle LEA.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t h i n ki n g

about

Law Enforcement

A g e n c y w o r k st r e a m .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e n e e d t o p u t so m e t h i n g t h a t w i l l

make it – that we make sure we do not confuse it with
10

another bundle.

But I do not even know whether putting LE

i s t h e ri g h t t h i n g b u t l e t u s b e cr e a t i v e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s.

T h e – w h a t m y u n d e r st a n d i n g w a s

f ro m h a vi n g sp o k e n w i t h t h e a d m i n i st ra t o r i s t h a t e v e r y o n e
o f t h e E x h i b i t s w h i c h f a l l w i t h i n a p a rt i c u l a r ra n g e o r re l a t e
t o a s p e ci f i c t o p i c o r w i t n e s s i n t h i s c a s e t h r o u g h t h e
e vi d e n c e o f Mr N h l e k o w o u l d f a l l u n d e r t h e Y 8 r a n g e o f
d i ff e r e n t e x h i b i t s.

Each bundle that goes with that.

So you

will have a Y8 and you will have a Bundle A that goes with
Y8 as opposed to the Bundle – the PRASA bundle.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

We l l t h e – t h e n u m b e r o f t h e e x h i b i t n e e d

n o t b e c o n n e ct e d w i t h t h e n a m e o f t h e b u n d l e b u t i t c o u l d b e
b u t t h a t m i g h t c a u s e c o n f u si o n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f i n si d e t h e f i l e yo u r e x h i b i t s a r e E x h i b i t

8 A , B , C , D u p t o w h a t e v e r.
Page 6 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

We c a n ke e p t h a t l i k e t h a t i n t e r m s o f

e x h i b i t s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o i f I ca n j u st e x p l a i n t o y o u M r C h a i r

how we have done it.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I f y o u w o u l d o p e n t h e f i r st b u n d l e a n d

you will see the index is Exhibit Y8.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

And then you will see a table with a #

w h i c h i s y o u r f i r s t co l u m n f o l l o w e d b y d e s c ri p t i o n , f o l l o w e d
b y b u n d l e a n d f o l l o w e d b y p a g e s. S o yo u w i l l se e t h a t t h e –
under the # column you have got 1 all the way down to – on
t h e se c o n d p a g e y o u h a v e g o t – a l l t h e w a y d o w n t o 1 6 .

So

t h a t 1 i s E x h i b i t 8 . – Y 8 . 1 a n d i f yo u l o o k a c r o s s t o t h e
B u n d l e n u m b e r t h e a p p r o p ri a t e c o l u m n w h i c h i s t h e t h i r d
column that Exhibit Y8.1 appears in Bundle A.

And you will

s e e t h a t – f o r i n st a n ce E x h i b i t Y 8 . 3 a p p e a r s i n B u n d l e –
appears also in Bundle A but it passes over into Bundle B.
20

So in other words there is…
CHAIRPERSON:

I t se e m s t h i s i s m o r e co n f u si n g t h a n I

t h o u g h t i t w a s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e – m y e x p e ct a t i o n i s t h a t w e w o u l d

h a ve a n a m e f o r t h e f i l e .

That is what I would say we call

Page 7 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
B u n d l e . L e t u s sa y – l e t u s s a y f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e B u n d l e A .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Th e n i n si d e B u n d l e A t h e r e a r e

e x h i b i t s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

E x h i b i t s w i l l c o n si st o f a ff i d a vi t s,

d o cu m e n t s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n .

Now documents that are

a n n e x u r e s t o a n a ff i d a vi t w o u l d f o r m p a rt o f t h e e x h i b i t t h a t
t h e a ff i d a vi t i s.
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

B u t t h o s e t h a t a re – t h a t st a n d

a l o n e t h e y w o u l d h a ve t h e i r o w n e x h i b i t s n u m b e r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w.

But the box would be like

B u n d l e A a n d t h e n y o u h a v e E x h i b i t – e v e n i f yo u c a l l e d i t
Y 8 A t h e f i r st e xh i b i t i n t h e b u n d l e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Y8A.

T h e n e xt o n e m a y b e – c a n t h e n b e

Exhibit Y8B, Y8C then that is what – that is what I am
20

e x p e ct i n g .
ADV HULLEY SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g e t t h e i m p r e s si o n t h a t i s n o t e xa ct l y h o w
t h i s i s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So that is not how it has been prepared.

I t h a s a ct u a l l y b e e n p re p a r e d t h e o t h e r w a y a ro u n d . S o w h a t
Page 8 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
we have done is the exhibit number would be in this case – if
y o u c o n si d e r f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e t h e f i r st – t h e v e r y f i r st i t e m
i n t h a t b u n d l e i t i s t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r N h l e k o w h i c h i s p a rt o f
a 3 . 4 A p p l i ca t i o n .

That together with all its annexures we

h a ve m a r k e d t h a t a s E x h i b i t 8 – o h s o r r y Y 8 . 1
CHAIRPERSON:

J a yo u s e e f o r e x a m p l e w h e n I l o o k a t h i s

a ff i d a vi t o n p a g e 1 I e x p e ct t h a t s o m e t h i n g w o u l d t e l l m e
w h a t e x h i b i t n u m b e r i t i s.

O ka y i f i t h a s n o t b e e n d o n e o f

course we can do it as we go along.
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

That is an option.

S o t o b e s u re t h a t t h i s

i s a c e rt a i n e xh i b i t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: And then the annexures to it would not…
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Wo u l d b e p a rt o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e a l l o c a t e d a s s e p a r a t e e x h i b i t n u m b e r s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y w o u l d b e p a rt o f t h e s a m e e x h i b i t .

B u t t h e m o m e n t t h e r e i s a d o c u m e n t t h a t i s a st a n d - a l o n e
20

t h a t i s n o t a n a n n e x u r e t o h i s a ff i d a vi t t h e n t h a t b e c o m e s t h e
n e xt e x h i b i t .

That is what – that is what – and it would be

m a r k e d E x h i b i t w h a t e ve r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

But if it is not marked as we go alone we

c o u l d m a r k i t . T h a t i s w h a t I h a ve i n m i n d .
Page 9 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d i ff e r e n t i s t h i s f ro m t h a t ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e – i n t h e p r e s e n t ca s e t h e – e a c h o n e
o f t h e s e w a s m a r k e d i n t h e o p p o si t e w a y t o w h a t y o u
d e s cri b i n g M r C h a i rm a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : W h a t – w h a t w e h a ve d o n e i s t h e – i f y o u
l o o k a t t h e b u n d l e n u m b e r s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e b u n d l e – t h e A r a n g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : R e f e r s t o a b u n d l e n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

W h e r e a s t h e n u m e ri c r a n g e w h i c h i s i n

the left column.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Refers to the exhibit that goes with the

Y8 range.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o e v e r yt h i n g t h a t i s Y 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC: Has a number attached to it. Any exhibit
has a number attached to it.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC: And that – but the exhibit may appear in
Page 10 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a d i ff e r e n t b u n d l e w h i c h h a s a n a l p h a b e t i c a l l e t t e r a t t a c h e d
to them – the bundle.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja .

M y c o n c e r n i s t h a t t h a t i s d i ff e r e n t

f ro m h o w t h e y h a v e b e e n d o n e a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o …
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

To b e co n f u s e d l a t er – a f e w m o n t h s f r o m

n o w. H o w m u c h w o r k w o u l d b e i n v o l v e d i n t r yi n g t o d o i t t h e
w a y t h a t I w o u l d p re f e r i t t o b e d o n e ?
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

I would imagine that it is a quite a bit of

work that it will entail.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC: But…
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t I a m h a vi n g i n m i n d i s i f w e

d e ci d e w h a t t h e b u n d l e i s g o i n g t o b e ca l l e d .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n a s yo u re f e r t o e a ch e x h i b i t w e

t h e n g i v e i t a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r.
ADV HULLEY SC: An alphabetical number or an exhibit – or
a numeric number?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Preferable

I

think

alphabetical

but

w h i c h e ve r w a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
c o n ve n i e n t .

Wo u l d

make

things

–

would

make

So as – so as we go along we do that.

would that – how does that sound?
Page 11 of 231

it

How

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We –
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e d o n o t i n t e rf e r e w i t h t h e p a g e
numbers - with the pagination.

We r e t a i n t h e p a g i n a t i o n a s

is – well I have not – I assume it is – ja I think it is
sequential from beginning to end.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s se q u e n t i a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w h i c h i s i m p o rt a n t .

So in that way we

d o n o t – w e w i l l n o t i n t e rf e r e w i t h t h e p a g i n a t i o n b u t w e w i l l
si m p l y g i v e e xh i b i t n u m b e r s a s w e g o a l o n g a n d i f t h e f i r st
10

o n e – i f M r N h l e k o ’s f i r st a ff i d a vi t i s E x h i b i t Y 8 A f o r e x a m p l e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n t h e n e xt st a n d- a l o n e d o c u m e n t w o u l d
be Exhibit Y8B and we go along up to the end. And then the
i n d e x s a yi n g t h a t ca n b e c h a n g e d – t h e i n d e x c a n b e
a m e n d e d l a t e r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ve r y w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wo u l d t h a t w o r k ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We w o u l d c e rt a i n l y e n d e a v o u r t o d o t h a t .
I – at the moment I think it would – it might be a bit of

20

t ro u b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC: But if we…
CHAIRPERSON:

With a little bit – with some adjournment

m a y b e o f so m e t i m e d u ri n g .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : P e rh a p s I c a n s e e k i n st r u ct i o n s.
Page 12 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g i v e y o u t o s e e
ADV HULLEY SC:

A s f a r a s t h a t i s co n c e r n e d .

I would

imagine if I were to make a call through the person that is
re s p o n si b l e f o r p r e p a ri n g t h e b u n d l e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

He might be able to indicate to me how

d i ff i c u l t t h a t m i g h t b e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t I a m h a vi n g i n m i n d i s t h a t – I

m e a n w e w o u l d p u t t h e e x h i b i t n u m b e r si m p l y w ri t e i t i n b y
10

hand. It would have to…
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s f o r p re s e n t p u r p o s e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o se s y o u k n o w.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e p r e se n t p u r p o s e s c a n b e f o r e v e r.

I t ca n r e m a i n l i k e t h a t . A n d i t se e m s t o m e a s l o n g a s w e d o
n o t i n t e rf e r e w i t h t h e p a g i n a t i o n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: That should be fine.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

Yo u s e e i t m i g h t j u st b e a c a s e o f

amending each of the indexes or indices as we go along.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a s w e g o a l o n g .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s f i n e M r C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f w e n e e d t o h a v e a n a d j o u rn m e n t o f

t w e n t y m i n u t e s j u st t o m a k e s u r e e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t a n d s i t
w e c o u l d d o t h a t s o t h a t o n c e w e st a rt e v e r yt h i n g f l o w s.
Page 13 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C a n f l o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S m o o t h l y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l ri g h t . M a yb e sh a l l w e g i v e t h i s
t h e e x h i b i t n u m b e r t h e b u n d l e n u m b e r st r a i g h t a w a y ?

Shall

w e s a y B u n d l e L AW A m a y b e – f o r L a w E n f o r ce m e n t B u n d l e
L AW A .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s f i n e l e t u s c a l l i t t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Let us – it is unlikely there will be another

o n e c a l l e d L AW A .
ADV HULLEY SC: That is fine Mr Chairman.

What I will do

i t f o r p r e se n t p u r p o s e s I w i l l t a k e y o u r p o i n t , I w i l l d i s c u s s i t
with the team and with the

p e r s o n r e s p o n si b l e

for the

b u n d l i n g . I f t h a t p r o v e s t o b e a p r o b l e m w e w i l l a d d re s s y o u
on that.
CHAIRPERSON:
fine.

Ja and then – ja.

No that is fine.

That is

But should we mark it now we can deal with the

preliminary issues and mark it later?
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

I think it would probably [00:15:44] if I

f i r st t o o k i n st r u ct i o n s o n t h a t b e c a u s e i f w e w e r e t o m a r k i t
now and then there is a problem with that range.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja o k a y.

O k a y a l ri g h t l e t – o k a y l e t u s

d e a l w i t h w h a t t h e a p p l i ca t i o n .
ADV HULLEY SC:
a ff i d a vi t .

Ye s.

I f I ca n j u st t a ke yo u t h e n t o t h e

I h a v e b e e n c a re f u l n o t t o r e f e r t o i t a s a n
Page 14 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a p p l i ca t i o n M r C h a i rm a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

If I can ask you to turn for what it – to

t h e G – so r r y t h e H r a n g e .

Under H at the moment.

And if

y o u w e r e t o t u r n w i t h m e M r C h a i r p e r s o n t o t h e v e r y l a st –
t h a t i s u n d e r t h e 1 6 t h f i l e d i vi d e r t h e r e i s a d o c u m e n t t h e r e
that appears at page 3647.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y h e i s st i l l g e t t i n g m e t h e b u n d l e .

W h a t i s t h e n u m b e r o f d i vi d e r 6 – 1 6 ?
10

ADV HULLEY SC: It is 16 Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

I have a letter there is that what I should

b e h a vi n g ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t i s a l e t t e r f ro m a f i r m o f a t t o r n e y s

c a l l e d A d a m s a n d A d a m s t h e y r e p r e s e n t M r M c B ri d e .

If you

t u r n t o p a g e 3 6 5 0 t h a t i s a n a ff i d a vi t o f M r M c B ri d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

W i t h yo u r l e a v e M r C h a i r p e r s o n I w o u l d

a s k t h a t M s H a r d i n g w h o a p p e a r s f o r M r M c B ri d e b e a l l o w e d
to address you.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

okay

a l ri g h t .

Thank

you.

Ye s

C o u n se l .
A D V H A R D I N G : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV HARDING:

I a m i n st r u ct e d t o a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f M r

M c B ri d e t o h a n d u p o r t a ke y o u t h ro u g h t h i s a ff i d a vi t M r
Page 15 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e f o r t h e r e c o r d yo u c o u l d j u st

p l a c e y o u r s e l f o n re c o r d a n d t h e n w e c o n t i n u e .
A D V H A R D I N G : M r C h a i r m y n a m e i s K a t h e ri n e H a r d i n g a n d
I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f M r M c B ri d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s.
ADV HARDING:

M r C h a i r a n a ff i d a vi t h a s b e e n p r o vi d e d t o

the commission as pointed out it – you will find it Mr Chair at
Bundle Y8H as it is named presently and that is at page
10

3650.

T h e a ff i d a vi t h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d t o M r N h l e k o ’s l e g a l

re p r e s e n t a t i v e s I a l s o g a v e h i m a h a r d c o p y o f t h e si g n e d
version a few moments ago.
I f I m a y c a n I t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t h e s a l i e n t p o rt i o n s o f
t h e a ff i d a vi t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I m u st j u st s a y t h a t I t h i n k I w a s t o l d

y e st e r d a y a b o u t t h e a ff i d a vi t b u t I a m o n l y a b l e t o s e e i t n o w
b e ca u s e y e st e r d a y w a s t o o l a t e .
A D V H A R D I N G : C o rr e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e g a l t e a m d i d o ff e r t o s e n d i t b u t s o I
20

said I will see it this morning here.

So you can tell me the

i m p o rt a n t p a rt s o f i t .
A D V H A R D I N G : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

Mr McBride has been

p r o vi d e d w i t h t h r e e n o t i ce s o f se t d o w n f o r t h r e e d i ff e r e n t
d a t e s f o r t h r e e d i ff e re n t cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n s.
t h o se i s t o d a y t h e 2 7 t h .

Th e f i r st o f

T h e n e xt i f t h e 2 9 t h f o r h e i s s e t t o
Page 16 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
b e c ro s s - e x a m i n e d b y A d v o c a t e P re t o ri u s a n d t h e t h i r d i s t h e
1 3 A u g u st w h e r e h e i s s e t t o b e cr o s s- e x a m i n e d b y B ri g a d i e r
K u b a ’s l e g a l t e a m .
T h i s a ff i d a vi t d o e s t h r e e t h i n g s.
T h e f i r st i f I ca n t a k e y o u t o i t M r C h a i r i s a t
p a r a g ra p h 5 o f t h a t a ff i d a vi t .

I t e x p r e s sl y r e i t e r a t e s Mr

M c B ri d e ’s c o m m i t m e n t t o t h e c o m m i s si o n a n d i t s p ro c e s s e s
i n cl u d i n g a c o m m i t m e n t t o a p p e a r t o b e c r o s s - e x a m i n e d .
T h e s e co n d i m p o r t a n t t h i n g t h a t t h e a ff i d a vi t d o e s i s
10

a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 . 3 . I t i n d i c a t e s t h a t Mr M c B ri d e i s n o t a b l e t o
a p p e a r t o d a y o r o n t h e 2 9 t h t o b e cr o s s- e x a m i n e d b u t t h a t h e
i s i n p ri n ci p l e a v a i l a b l e a n d m a k e s h i m se l f a v a i l a b l e i n t h a t
a ff i d a vi t t o d o a l l t h r e e se t s o f cr o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n s o n t h e
t h i r d d a t e t h e 1 3 A u g u st .
A n d t h e t h i rd i m p o rt a n t t h i n g t h a t t h e a ff i d a vi t d o e s i s
t h a t d u e t o M r M c B ri d e ’s r e s p e ct f o r t h e c o m m i s si o n a n d i t s
p r o c e s s e s i t se t s o u t t h e r e a s o n s i n d e t a i l w h y h e c a n n o t
a p p e a r t o d a y o r o n t h e 2 9 t h f o r t h a t c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u n e e d a rt i c u l a t e t h o s e b e c a u s e a s I

20

s a y I a m o n l y se e i n g t h e a ff i d a vi t n o w.
ADV HARDING:

Ye s M r C h a i r.

T h e f i r st o f t h o se re a s o n s

can be found at paragraph 12.

M r M c B ri d e h i g h l i g h t s i n

p a r a g ra p h 1 2 t h a t w h e n h e r e ce i v e d t h o s e n o t i c e s o f s e t
down,

he

was

not

in

a

p o si t i o n

to

i n st r u ct

legal

re p r e s e n t a t i v e s t o a d vi s e h i m o n t h o s e n o t i c e s o r t o a d vi s e
Page 17 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
h i m o n t h e s ch e d u l e d c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n s.

T h a t p o si t i o n

c h a n g e d w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n t e d i n t o h i s n e w p o si t i o n a t t h e
S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y a n d t h a t w a s w i t h t h e e ff e ct f ro m t h e
1 6 Ju l y.
H e t h e n a p p o i n t e d l e g a l re p r e s e n t a t i v e s i n p a ra g r a p h
1 4 i t s e t s o u t o n t h e 2 3 Ju l y.

H e i n st r u ct e d A d a m s a n d

A d a m s a n d re t a i n e d t h e i r s e r vi c e s t o r e p re s e n t h i m i n t h e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t o a d vi s e h i m o n t h e n o t i c e s o f s e t d o w n
a n d t h e s c h e d u l e d c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n s.
10

The following day on the 24th Adams and Adams
a d d r e s s e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o t h e co m m i s si o n t h a t i s t h e
l e t t e r t o w h i c h y o u w e r e r e f e r re d j u st b e f o r e t h i s a ff i d a vi t i n
t h e b u n d l e i t i s a l s o a t t a c h e d t o t h e a ff i d a vi t .
letter Adams

and Adams

immediately

And in that

indicated

that

Mr

M c B ri d e w o u l d n o t b e i n a p o si t i o n t o a t t e n d t o d a y.
A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f t h e a ff i d a vi t M r M c B ri d e
i n d i c a t e s t h a t t h e re a s o n w h y w e c a n n o t a p p e a r i s b e c a u s e
h e a n d h i s l e g a l t e a m r e q u i r e m o r e t i m e t o c o n si d e r n e w
d o cu m e n t a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n p r o vi d e d t o h i m i n t h e l a st f e w
20

d a y s a n d a l s o t o o b t a i n a d vi c e o n t h e n o t i c e s o f s e t d o w n
a n d t h e s c h e d u l e d c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n s.
T h e e s s e n c e o f t h e a ff i d a vi t t h e n M r C h a i r i s t h a t M r
M c B ri d e i s c o m m i t t e d t o a p p e a ri n g t o b e cr o s s - e x a m i n e d a n d
is willing to do so as indicated that he can do so on the 13th
o f t h o s e t h r e e s u g g e st e d d a t e s.

But that he needs more

Page 18 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t i m e t o p r e p a r e h i m se l f a n d h i s l e g a l t e a m i n o rd e r t o g o
t h r o u g h a l l t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n a n d i n o r d e r t o b e e ff i ci e n t l y
p r e p a re d f o r t h o s e cr o s s - e xa m i n a t i o n s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s h e i n e ff e ct i v e l y a s ki n g t o b e e x c u se d

today and later this week when he is supposed to appear
a g a i n b u t a s f a r a s t h e 1 3 t h A u g u st h e h a s n o p r o b l e m ?
ADV HARDING:

T h a t i s t h e e ff e ct o f t h i s a ff i d a vi t M r C h a i r.

T h e a ff i d a vi t d o e s i n d i c a t e t h a t h e a n d so d i d t h e l e t t e r o f
t h e 2 4 t h t h e y b o t h i n d i ca t e t h a t h e i s i n p ri n ci p l e a v a i l a b l e t o
10

d o a l l t h r e e c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n s o n t h e 1 3 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H A R D I N G : B u t t h e e ff e ct o f t h i s a ff i d a vi t w o u l d b e t o –
t o se e k t o b e e x c u s e d f r o m t o d a y’s p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t h e 2 9 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y. A n d f o r t h e 1 3 t h h e i s f i n e ?
A D V H A R D I N G : H e i s a va i l a b l e f o r t h e 1 3 t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

And then I guess another date that will be

d e t e r m i n e d f o r t h e e vi d e n c e – f o r h i s a p p e a r a n c e r e l a t i n g t o
M r N h l e ko a n d t o so m e b o d y e l se l a t e r i n t h i s w e e k t h e n i n
terms of his commitment he – he will come as long as there
20

will have been enough notice.
ADV HARDING:

Ye s M r C h a i r.

He has committed to

a p p e a ri n g a s l o n g a s t h e r e i s e n o u g h t i m e t o s u ff i ci e n t l y
p r e p a re .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

O k a y a l ri g h t .

Thank you.

Let me

hear if Counsel for Mr Nhleko and Mr Hulley what they have
Page 19 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t o sa y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V H A R D I N G : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – i t m i g h t b e c o n ve n i e n t f o r n o w i f yo u
j u st s a y s o m e t h i n g f r o m t h e r e .

Yo u c a n p r e s s o n y o u r

m i cr o p h o n e a n d t e l l m e M r M o k h a ri w h a t y o u r a t t i t u d e i s ?
O h o k a y i s i t e a si e r – w e l l I a m j u s t a f r a i d t h a t i f yo u d o n o t
p u t t h e m i c ro p h o n e o n t h e n i t w i l l n o t b e r e c o r d e d b u t y o u
c a n p u t o ff – o k a y j a y o u c a n t a k e o ff y o u r m a r k – m a s k n o t
m i c f o r p u r p o se s o f sp e a ki n g o t h e r w i s e y o u a r e s u p p o se d t o
10

p r e s s a b u t t o n s o m e w h e r e . O h , i s i t n o t w o r ki n g ? O t h e r w i s e
if you can move over there that is fine.
over there ja.

Ja.

J a yo u c a n m o v e

O h o k a y, o k a y n o t h a t i s f i n e .

Yo u c a n

j u st p l a c e y o u r s e l f o n r e c o r d f i r st a n d t h e n st a rt .
MR MOKHARI SC:

Thank you very much CJ – I mean

C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e c o m m i s si o n . M y n a m e i s W i l l i a m M o k h a ri
SC. I appear for Mr Nhleko and I am with my two juniors Mr
M o k h a t l a [ ? ] a s w e l l a s M s M a rt i n g l a t si [ ? ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. T h a n k y o u .
M R M O K H A R I S C : F o r – f o r p r e se n t p u r p o s e s C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M O K H A R I S C : I a m r e q u i r e d t o re s p o n d t o M r M c B ri d e ’s
a ff i d a vi t .

Ye st e r d a y w e w e r e g i v e n o r y e st e r d a y a f t e r n o o n

w e w e r e s e n t a n u n si g n e d st a t e m e n t o r a ff i d a vi t b y t h e
c o m m i s si o n ’s e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s t h a t M c B ri d e i s s a yi n g t h a t
h e w i l l n o t b e c o m i n g t o d a y.

And this morning when we

Page 20 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a r ri v e d , w e w e r e g i v e n h i s si g n e d a ff i d a vi t .
We h a d a l r e a d y e x p r e s s e d o u r vi e w t o t h e e vi d e n c e
leaders

ye st e r d a y

by

s a yi n g

that

insofar

as

M cB ri d e ’s

p o si t i o n t h a t h e w i l l n o t b e c o m i n g t o b e cr o s s - e x a m i n e d
t o d a y f o r t h e r e a s o n s t h a t h e a rt i c u l a t e s w e w i l l l e a v e i t i n
t h e h a n d s o f t h e – o f t h e C h a i rp e r s o n t o d e ci d e .

But what

w e w i s h t o p l a ce o n re c o r d i s o u r d i sp l e a s u re i n u s b e i n g
i n f o r m e d o n t h e e v e o f t h e h e a ri n g w h e n w e h a ve t a k e n a l l
the time to prepare.
10

We h a v e s e e n t h e n o t i c e t h a t w a s s e n t t o M r M c B ri d e
i n s o f a r a s M r N h l e k o ’s r e q u e st t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e h i m a n d t h e
n o t i ce f r o m t h e c o m m i s si o n w h i c h i n f o r m e d h i m a s w a y b a c k
a s o n t h e 1 0 t h o f h i s m o n t h a n d t h a t i s cl e a r l y m o re t h a n
f i f t e e n d a y s a n d h e w i l l h a v e a rt i c u l a t e d t h e s e vi e w s m u c h
e a rl i e r

in

order

to

save

unnecessary

co st s

that

w e re

expended.
B u t o f co u r s e , w e c a n n o t re a l l y t a k e a n y – w e ca n n o t
t a k e t h e m a t t e r a n y f u rt h e r e x ce p t t o s a y t h a t i t i s n o t u p t o
M r M c B ri d e t o d e ci d e t h a t h e b e c ro s s - e x a m i n e d b y a l l t h e
20

legal teams on the 13th because that will depend on the
a v a i l a b i l i t y o f u s.
S o w e c a n o n l y a s s u m e t h a t i n s o f a r a s t h e c r o s se x a m i n a t i o n b y M r N h l e ko i s c o n c e r n e d , w e w i l l r e c e i v e a
n e w n o t i c e f r o m t h e c o m m i s si o n w h i ch w e w i l l t a k e i n t o
account our availability as well.
Page 21 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
But as for the 13th then we will not be available to be
a b l e t o d o t h a t . B u t o t h e r w i s e t h e n w e l e a ve i t i n t h e h a n d o f
the Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay no thank you.
M R M O K H A R I S C : T h a n k yo u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y.
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

Thank

you

Mr

Chairperson.

Mr

C h a i r p e r s o n t h e – t h e p o si t i o n i s a s w e c u rr e n t l y h a v e i t . Mr
M c B ri d e w a s n o t u n d e r su b p o e n a a t t h e t i m e .
10

It was at all

t i m e s t h e u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e c o m m i s si o n t h a t M r M cB ri d e
h a vi n g b e e n g i v e n a d e q u a t e n o t i c e h a d a l w a y s b e e n m a d e
h i m se l f a v a i l a b l e f o r co n s u l t a t i o n s i n t h e p a st a n d t h a t h e
w o u l d c o m p l y w i t h – o n t h a t b a si s s o t h a t i t w a s n o t
n e ce s s a r y i n t h e ci r c u m st a n c e s t o s u b p o e n a h i m .

Had we

known that we would run into the danger that we ultimately
d i d w e w o u l d o b v i o u sl y h a v e s u b p o e n a e d h i m b u t t h a t w a s
e n t i r e l y b a s e d t h e d e c i si o n n o t t o s u b p o e n a h i m w a s b a se d
entirely

upon

the

f a ct

that

he

had

at

all

times

been

cooperative until then and I do not mean to intimate that he
20

has not been cooperative.

Quite the contrary he – but he

has given us an indication that he wishes to – well by way of
t h e co r re s p o n d e n c e a n d t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t h e i s t a k e n u p
e m p l o y m e n t e l se w h e r e a n d t h a t i t h a s b e c o m e d i ff i c u l t f o r
h i m t o c o m p l y t o d a y. B u t t h a t w a s t h e si t u a t i o n t h a t w e w e r e
confronted with and we could not nothing more than what we
Page 22 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
presently have.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l w e h a ve g e n e r a l l y b e e n w o r ki n g – t h e
c o m m i s si o n h a s b e e n w o r ki n g o n t h e b a si s t h a t w h e n p e o p l e
k n o w t h a t t h e y a r e e x p e ct e d t o a p p e a r t h e s e c e rt a i n p e o p l e
will comply – will come.
ADV HULLEY SC: Indeed Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

W i t h o u t a n y c o m p u l si o n .

O n F ri d a y I h a d

o c c a si o n t o m e n t i o n a t t h e h e a ri n g t h a t i t w a s a p i t y t h a t I
h a d t o i s s u e a d i r e ct i ve f o r a j u d g e t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e
10

c o m m i s si o n b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e s o m a n y p e o p l e i n a – w h o
re g a r d i t a s e n o u g h t h a t I re q u e st t h e m a p p e a r. Th e y d o n o t
w a i t f o r m e t o i s s u e a d i re ct i v e o r t o b e s u b p o e n a e d a s l o n g
a s t h e y h e a r t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n w o u l d l i k e t h e m t o a p p e a r,
they say I will come.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s M r C h a i rp e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a r e s u l t . S o – s o t h a t h a s b e e n w o r ki n g
l a rg e l y w e l l .

T h e r e a re ci r c u m st a n ce s w h e r e i t h a s n o t

w o r ke d w e l l .

B u t o f c o u r s e , i f w e h a d – i f t h e c o m m i s si o n

h a d i s su e d a s u b p o e n a o r a d i r e ct i v e , I h a v e n o d o u b t M r
20

M c B ri d e w o u l d h a v e b e e n h e r e .

Because even in his new

job he would be able to show a subpoena or a directive but
h e h a s b e e n c o o p e r a t i v e i n t h e p a st .

I am sure that it is

p r o b a b l y j u st a d i ff i c u l t s i t u a t i o n a n d I c a n s e e t h a t i n h i s
a ff i d a vi t h e s a y s t h a t f o r s o m e t i m e h e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n
a b l e t o a ff o r d l a w y e r s.
Page 23 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
a ff o r d l a w y e r s.

And it is only recently that he was able to
So other dates will have to be determined.

T h e o n e f o r t h e 1 8 t h A u g u st w i l l r e m a i n a s a d a t e f o r t h e
p a rt i c u l a r cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n t h a t i s i n d i c a t e d f o r i t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o t h e r d a t e w i l l h a ve t o b e d e t e r m i n e d i n
re g a r d

to

Mr

Nhleko

in

regard

to

e x a m i n a t i o n b y M r N h l e k o ’s C o u n s e l .
10

b e ca u s e

Mr

M o k h a ri

mentioned

Mr

M c B ri d e ’s

c ro s s -

B u t I d o w a n t t o sa y

that

or

s u g g e st e d

his

u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t t h e d a t e s w o u l d t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t t h e i r –
t h e c o u n s e l ’s a v a i l a b i l i t y. We d e t e r m i n e t h e d a t e s w i t h o u t
re a l l y n e g o t i a t i n g t h e m w i t h l a w y e r s b e c a u s e t h e re a r e s o
m a n y l a w y e r s i n v o l v e d . I t w o u l d r e a l l y b e v e r y d i ff i c u l t i f w e
w e re t o n e g o t i a t e t h e m w i t h l a w y e r s.

But we – we will be

t r yi n g t o m a k e s u re t h a t t h e r e i s r e a so n a b l e n o t i c e s o t h a t
arrangements can be made.

S o I a m i n cl i n e d t o g r a n t t h e

p o st p o n e m e n t o f M r M c B ri d e ’s – t h e h e a ri n g o f M r M cB ri d e ’s
e vi d e n c e u n d e r cr o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n d a y M r N h l e k o ’s c o u n s e l .
20

I talked about later this week when he is supposed to appear
b u t I c a n n o t d e a l w i t h t h a t I t h i n k b e c a u se t h e o t h e r p a rt y
t h a t i s i n v o l v e d i n t h a t o n e i s n o t – i s n o t h e re .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think what can happen is that as soon
a s p o s s i b l e t h e c o m m i s si o n m u st b e i n t o u c h w i t h t h e m s o
Page 24 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t h a t t h e y kn o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o d a y.

Of course, I think we

w i l l t h e n d e ci d e w h a t i s g o i n g t o – w e w i l l d e ci d e o n t h e d a y
s o I a m a f r a i d C o u n s e l f o r M r M c B ri d e w i l l h a v e t o c o m e
b a c k, I t h i n k.

Is it on the 29th?

I think it is the 29th or

w h a t e v e r t h e d a t e i s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a t – t h e r e i s – t h e n e xt d a t e i s t h e 2 9 t h
t h a t i s f o r t h e l e a d i n g o f t h e e vi d e n c e o f A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : F o r h i s q u e st i o n i n g a n d o f c o u r s e f o r t h e
10

c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I n r e s p e ct o f M r M c B ri d e a n d i n re s p e ct

o f G e n e ra l B o o y s e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

S o t h e d e ci si o n I m a k e t o d a y w i l l b e

c o n f i n e d t o t h i s o n e b e c a u se I c a n n o t m a ke a d e c i si o n o n
a n o t h e r o n e b e c a u se t h e o t h e r p a rt y i s n o t h e r e .

Okay

a l ri g h t . T h e c r o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n o f M r M cB ri d e b y M r N h l e k o ’s
counsel is adjourned to a date to be determined.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r p e r so n .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV HULLEY SC:

M r C h a i r t h a t t h e n b ri n g s u s t o t h e

q u e st i o n h o w t h e b u n d l e s …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h i n k j u st f o r t h e – f o r t h e s a k e o f

c o m p l e t e n e s s I kn o w I t h i n k w e a l l k n o w t h e e ff e ct o f t h a t i s
t h a t t o d a y w e w i l l h a v e M r N h l e k o g i vi n g e vi d e n ce a n d b e i n g
Page 25 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
q u e st i o n e d b y y o u r s e l f a n d – a n d i f h i s c o u n se l a f t e r t h a t
s e e k s t o re - e x a m i n e h i m h e m a y d o s o a n d t h e n a n o t h e r – o n
a n o t h e r d a y h i s c o u n s e l w i l l t h e n cr o s s- e x a m i n e M r M cB ri d e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay alright.

Okay do you – do you need

some adjournment for purposes of that housekeeping?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O f t h e b u n d l e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Or have you done it in the meantime?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o d o i t M r C h a i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC: I would require an adjournment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t se e m s a p p r o p r i a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

That we should perhaps have the tea

a d j o u r n m e n t a t t h i s st a g e .

S o w e ca n u s e u p t h a t t i m e t o

a t t e n d t o t h i s m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O n m y w a t c h i t i s a b o u t q u a rt e r t o e l e v e n .

Yo u p r o p o se w e c o m b i n e i t w i t h t e a ?
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

I propose so then we do not have to –

s u b j e ct o f c o u r s e t o e v e r y b o d y ’s …
CHAIRPERSON:

O r u p t o q u a rt e r p a st e l e v e n o r h o w m u c h

time do you think you need?
ADV HULLEY SC:

I would imagine that I need about twenty

m i n u t e s.
Page 26 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON: About?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A r o u n d a b o u t f i f t e e n t o t w e n t y m i n u t e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y so m a yb e w e t h e n s a y w e re s u m e
a t q u a rt e r p a st e l e v e n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ve r y w e l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC: As it pleases Mr Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a O ka y. O ka y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y.

We w i l l a d j o u rn – w e w i l l t h e n

a d j o u r n a n d w e w i l l r e s u m e a t q u a rt e r p a st e l e v e n .

We

adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : A l l ri s e .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S :
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e r e a d y?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, t h a n k y o u D C J.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : D C J, i t w o u l d s e e m t h a t t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t
20

you have made on how you want things to be done should be
fairly easy to follow going forward.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e re m a y h a v e t o b e s o m e d i s c u s si o n

b u t n o t o n t h i s o c c a si o n a b o u t so m e o f t h e s e d o c u m e n t s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 27 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

B u t t h a t i s f o r a d i ff e r e n t o c c a si o n .

For

p r e s e n t p u rp o s e s , i t se e m s q u i t e si m p l e h o w w e c a n d e a l
w i t h i t p r a ct i c a l l y g o i n g f o r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

P r o b a b l y f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s, w e w o u l d

h a ve

the

to

w ri t e

m a n u s c ri p t

on

the

documents

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

...that we would want to identify as

e x h i b i t s.
CHAIRPERSON: No, that is fine. That is fine.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , D C J.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

D C J, I u n d e r st a n d . . . I w a n t . . . w h a t I

w o u l d l i ke t o d o i s t o j u st p l a c e i n c o n t e xt t h e e vi d e n c e o f M r
Nhleko.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And before we commence.

I u n d e r st a n d

f ro m M r M o k h a ri t h a t h e w o u l d l i k e t o m a k e . . . w h a t h e r e f e r s
20

t o a s a n o p e n i n g a d d r e s s.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s o f co u r s e w i t h y o u r l e a ve .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e n o n c e w e h a ve p l a c e d t h e

e vi d e n c e i n c o n t e xt , I ca n t h e n c o m m e n c e b y l e a d i n g t h e
Page 28 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
e vi d e n c e o f M r N h l e k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A l ri g h t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o D C J, t h e . . . a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d

p r e vi o u sl y,

Mr

Nhleko

has

been

implicated

w i t n e s s e s.

H i s p re s e n t ro u n d o f t e st i m o n y w i l l r e l a t e t o . . .

m o st l y t o t h e e v i d e n ce o f M r M c B ri d e .

by

several

Mr M c B ri d e , M r

Sesoko and Mr Kuba who were all members of the IPID at a
s p e ci f i c p o i n t i n t i m e .
I n t h e c a s e o f M r M cB ri d e , h e c o m m e n c e d w i t h I P I D i n
10

2014.

I b e l i e v e i t w a s o n t h e 3 r d o f M a r ch o f 2 0 1 4 .

And he

h a s i m p l i c a t e d M r N h l e k o w h o a t t h e t i m e w a s t h e Mi n i st e r o f
Police.
M r N h l e ko w a s t h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e d u ri n g t h e p e r i o d
2014.

I b e l i e v e i t i s M a y o f 2 0 1 4 a n d h e re m a i n e d t h e

M i n i st e r o f P o l i ce u p u n t i l , I b e l i e v e i t w a s 2 0 1 7 . T h e r e w a s
a C a b i n e t re s h u ff l e w h i c h t o o k p l a c e i n 2 0 1 7 w h i c h r e s u l t e d
i n M r N h l e k o b e i n g r e m o ve d a s t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e .
T h e e v e n t s r e l a t e i n p a rt i c u l a r t o a so - c a l l e d r e n d i t i o n
re p o rt o n w h i c h M r M c B ri d e , M r K u b a a n d M r S e s o k o a l l
20

t e st i f i e d .
T h e r e n d i t i o n r e p o rt s r e l a t e d t o a n d s o m e i n ci d e n t s o r
t h r e e i n c i d e n t s t h a t t o o k p l a c e i n t h e y e a r 2 0 1 0 c re e p i n g i n t o
t h e y e a r 2 0 11 w h e n c e rt a i n Zi m b a b w e a n n a t i o n a l s w e r e
a l l e g e d l y – a n d I p u t t o s a y “ a l l e g e d l y ” i n i n v e rt e d c o m m a s –
t h e y m o v e d f r o m S o u t h A f ri c a n a n d t a k e n a c r o s s t h e b o r d e r
Page 29 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t o Zi m b a b w e w i t h o u t f o l l o w i n g t h e p r o c e s s e s o f t h e H o m e
A ff a i r s p r o c e s se s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e co m p l i e d w i t h i n o r d e r t o
d o so .
T h a t g a v e ri s e t o a r e p o rt t h a t h a d b e e n p u b l i s h e d i n t h e
S u n d a y Ti m e s w h i c h a l e rt e d t h e p u b l i c t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h e re
had been this rendition which resulted in an investigation
t h a t w a s c o n d u ct e d a n d t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n i t s e l f h a s b e e n
t e st i f i e d t o o n s e v e r a l o c c a si o n .
It ultimately landed up with IPID.
10

And Mr Kuba was the

p e r s o n , f o r p re s e n t p u rp o s e s, M r K u b a w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o
h a d c o n d u ct e d t h a t i n ve st i g a t i o n .
H e p r o d u c e d se v e ra l r e p o rt s.

T h e r e h a s b e e n a d i sp u t e

a b o u t t h e st a t u s o f t h e s e re p o rt s, w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e i n t e ri m
re p o rt s, w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e f i n a l r e p o rt s.
F o r p r e s e n t p u rp o s e s, w e n e e d n o t t o co n c e rn o u r se l v e s
w i t h t h e st a t u s o f t h o se r e p o rt s.
S h o rt l y a f t e r M r M cB ri d e t o o k o ff i c e i n M a r c h o f 2 0 1 4 , M r
N h l e k o b e c a m e t h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e w h i c h w a s i n Ma y o f
t h a t ye a r.
20

M r N h l e k o e st a b l i s h e d a t e a m o f p e o p l e t o

i n v e st i g a t e c e rt a i n i s s u e s r e l a t i n g t o w h a t h e r e f e r r e d t o t h e
t w o r e p o rt s a n d t h o s e r e p o rt s c a m e t o b e c h a n g e d .
T h e i s s u e , u l t i m a t e l y, r e s u l t e d i n t h e q u e st i o n b e i n g p u t
t o a n e xt e rn a l p ri v a t e f i r m t o i n v e st i g a t e h o w t h e s e t w o
re p o rt s c a m e a b o u t a n d t h a t p r i v a t e f i rm h a s a l s o b e e n
implicated.
Page 30 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
O n e o f t h e p e o p l e i n r e s p e ct o f t h a t p r i va t e f i r m w i l l b e
t e st i f yi n g a b o u t t h e r e p o rt t h a t t h e y h a d p r o d u c e d l a t e r o n , i n
t h e c o u r s e o f t h i s w e e k.
U l t i m a t e l y, M r M c B ri d e , M r S e s o k o a n d M r K u b a w e r e
s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e y, i n r e l a t i o n t o M r M cB ri d e , h e i n st i t u t e d
l e g a l p r o ce e d i n g s w h i c h r e s u l t e d u l t i m a t e l y i n h i m b e i n g . . .
t h i s s u s p e n si o n b e i n g s e t a si d e a n d h e w a s a l l o w e d t o re t u r n
t o w o r k p u r s u a n t t o a c o u rt o r d e r.
I n r e l a t i o n t o M r S e s o ko a n d i n r e l a t i o n t o M r K u b a , t h e i r
10

p r o c e s s e s f o l l o w e d a b i t o f a d i ff e re n t p r o ce s s b u t u l t i m a t e l y,
t h e y. . .
W h e n t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e C o m m i s s i o n w a s e st a b l i s h e d ,
t h e y l o d g e d a ff i d a vi t s b e f o r e t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e C o m m i s si o n
i n w h i ch t h e y c o m p l a i n e d a b o u t t h e c o m p l i c i t y, a s t h e y p u t i t ,
o f M r N h l e ko i n h a vi n g t h e m r e m o v e d f o r a n u l t e ri o r p u r p o s e .
T h e t e st i m o n y o f M r N h l e k o t o d a y i s t o d e a l w i t h t h a t
and

to

attempt

to

cl e a r

his

name

i n so f a r

as

that

is

c o n ce r n e d .
T h e p a p e r s t h a t a r e b e f o r e y o u p r e s e n t l y M r C h a i r,
20

re l a t e t o t h e a ff i d a vi t s o f M r M c B ri d e , M r N h l e k o . . . s o r r y, M r
M c B ri d e , M r K u b a a n d M r S e s o k o a n d w e w o u l d b e m a ki n g
re f e r e n c e t o t h a t .
T h e r e i s a n a ff i d a vi t t h a t c a m e i n o n , I b e l i e v e i t w a s o n
F ri d a y, t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr K u b a w h e r e M r
N h l e k o h a s r e sp o n d e d t o s o m e o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t h a v e
Page 31 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
been made by Mr Kuba.
I t i s n o t a c c o m p a n i e d b y a n a p p l i c a t i o n t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e
M r K u b a b u t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s, w e n e e d n o t t o c o n ce r n
ourselves as far as that is concerned.
I h a v e t o g i v e a n i n d i ca t i o n t o M r N h l e ko ’s l e g a l t e a m
t h a t a r e . . . i t i s m y i n t e n t i o n t o q u e st i o n M r N h l e ko o n t h e
a ff i d a vi t o f M r K u b a a n d , o f c o u r s e , o n t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r
Sesoko as well.
F o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s M r C h a i r, t h a t i s t h e . . . w e l l , t h a t i s
10

w h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o h i g h l i g h t t o yo u . I w o u l d h a v e t a k e n yo u
t h r o u g h t h e b u n d l e m o r e ca r e f u l l y.
But given that we already have got some problems with
t h e b u n d l e , i t w o u l d n o t m a k e s e n s e f o r m e n o w, a t t h i s
st a g e , t o c o m m e n t u p o n o n t h e b u n d l e b u t w e w i l l u p d a t e t h e
b u n d l e a s w e g o a l o n g M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, that is fine.

I s e e t h a t t h e re a re a l o t

o f l e ve r a r c h f i l e s, c e rt a i n l y, b e h i n d y o u .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t f r o m w h a t y o u h a ve s a i d a n d t h a t , o f

c o u r s e , w i t h m y u n d e r st a n d i n g , t h e i m p o rt a n t . . . t h e m o st
i m p o rt a n t

p a rt

of

Mr

N h l e k o ’s

e vi d e n c e

and

the

m o st

i m p o rt a n t p a rt i n re l a t i o n t o h o w h e h a s b e e n i m p l i ca t e d
w o u l d b e t h e o n e re l a t i n g t o t h e I P I D re p o rt s, i s i t n o t ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, t h a t i s t h e m a i n i s s u e .
Page 32 of 231

Yo u . . . a s f a r

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a s, c e rt a i n l y a s I re c a l l , t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r i s s u e s w h i c h , a s
f a r a s I r e c a l l , m i g h t n o t b e a s c ri t i c a l a s t h a t o n e .
ADV HULLEY SC: So ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u st w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e a r e o n t h e

same page.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s, i f I c a n su m m a ri s e e s s e n t i a l l y

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i n t e rm s o f i s s u e s.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

. . . w h a t M r M cB ri d e h a s a d d r e s s e d .

So

M r M c B ri d e h a s m a d e re f e re n c e t o q u i t e a f e w d i ff e r e n t
a s p e ct s.
H e h a s r e f e r re d t o t h e f a ct t h a t M r N h l e k o h a d a p p o i n t e d
a c h i e f o f st a ff a c e rt a i n M r M b a n g w a w h o w a s h i s C h i e f o f
S t a ff

and

c o n vi ct e d . . .

who
and

will

Mr

had

M c B ri d e

been

was

c o n vi ct e d

a
of

foreigner and
ce rt a i n

a

c ri m e s

re l a t i n g t o t h i s i d e n t i f i c a t i o n .
M r M c B ri d e h a s a l s o t a ke n i s s u e w i t h t h e e st a b l i s h m e n t
o f a r e f e r e n c e g r o u p t h a t w a s e st a b l i s h e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

L e t u s t a k e t h e m o n e - b y- o n e .

The one

about Mr Mbangwa... is it Nbwanga or Mbangwa?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I u n d e r st a n d i t i s n o t N b w a n g a . M r L e o n
Abednego Mbangwa.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mbangwa.

Ye s, t h e o n e r e l a t i n g t o M r

M b a n g w a , Mr N h l e k o m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e k n o w n w h a t Mr
M b a n g w a ’s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 33 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S t a t u s w a s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . p o si t i o n i s a b o u t t h e cri m i n a l r e c o r d , b u t
w h e r e d o e s t h a t t a k e u s i n t e r m s o f t h e C o m m i s si o n ?

What

i s t h e si g n i f i ca n c e o f t h a t a s f a r a s t h e C o m m i s si o n i s
c o n ce r n e d ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I n o t h e r w o r d s, w h a t w o u l d b e t h e p o i n t

that you seek to be made about it?
ADV
10

HULLEY

SC:

The

point,

as

I

understand

it

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja?
ADV HULLEY SC:
we

can

se e ,

falls

. . . a n d i t i s c e r t a i n l y n o t so m e t h i n g t h a t
n e c e s sa ri l y

within

the

scope

of

the

C o m m i s si o n ’s I n q u i ry.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We h a v e d e b a t e d a m o n g st o u r s e l v e s.

was a point that we did not think we ought to pursue it.

It
Mr

N h l e k o h a s, o f c o u r s e , p r o d u c e s o m e d o c u m e n t a t i o n re l a t i n g
t o t h e ci r c u m st a n c e s a r o u n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t .
20

He may well, of course, feel that he is entitled given that
e vi d e n c e h a s b e e n l e d o n t h a t p o i n t .

He may well feel that

h e i s e n t i t l e d t o a t l e a st p l a ce b e f o r e t h e p u b l i c w h a t
t ra n s p i r e d a s f a r a s t h a t i s c o n c e rn e d so t h a t a t l e a st t h e
public has a sense of what the explanation is around that.
B u t a s f a r a s t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s a r e c o n c e r n e d , w e
Page 34 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
did not think that it was a point that we should pursue
b e ca u s e i t d o e s n o t t a k e t h e i s su e a n y w h e r e .
B u t m a y b e a p o i n t t h a t i s r e l e v a n t f o r o t h e r p u r p o se s, I
am not sure but it is a point... we do not believe that it is a
p o i n t t h a t i s r e l e v a n t f o r t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e o f C o m m i s si o n
I n q u i r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, b e ca u s e I d o n o t w a n t u s t o s p e n d t o o
m u c h t i m e o n i s s u e s t h a t a r e n o t re a l l y i m p o rt a n t f o r t h e
C o m m i s si o n .
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
Nhleko

s a y s,

b e ca u s e

O b vi o u sl y, I d o n o t h a ve a p ro b l e m i f M r

“ L o o k,

somebody

may I
ca m e

j u st

se t

here

the

and

record

said

I

st r a i g h t

appointed

s o m e b o d y w h o s h o u l d n o t h a ve b e e n a p p o i n t e d ”.
Then takes a few minutes to deal with that but I do not
w a n t u s t o sp e n d t o o m u ch t i m e o n p e ri p h e r a l i s s u e s a s f a r
as the Commission is concerned.
I w a n t u s t o f o c u s o n t h e re a l i s s u e s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : W i t h r e s p e ct , I t h i n k t h a t m u st b e c o r r e ct
20

M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n t h e n e xt o n e i s. . . w h a t w a s t h e

n e xt o n e i n t e r m s o f i s s u e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

So

the

n e xt

a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e r e f e re n c e g r o u p .

issue

relates

to

the

A reference group was

e st a b l i sh e d w h e n M r N h l e k o . . . s h o rt l y a f t e r M r N h l e k o c a m e
Page 35 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
i n t o o ff i c e , h e h a s e st a b l i s h e d a r e f e r e n c e g r o u p .
H e h a s r e f e r r e d t o so m e d o c u m e n t s re l a t i n g t o t h e
e st a b l i sh m e n t

of

the

reference

group

and

that

he

has

i n cl u d e d i n a c e rt a i n b u n d l e .
T h e r e a r e ce rt a i n a d d i t i o n a l d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e h a ve
re f e rr e d t o r e l a t i n g t o t h e e st a b l i s h m e n t o f t h e r e f e r e n c e
g r o u p a n d t h a t i s re f e rr e d t o e l se w h e r e .
B u t a s f a r a s t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p i s c o n ce r n e d , t h e
c o m p l a i n t w a s, a s I u n d e r st a n d M r M c B ri d e ’s e vi d e n c e , w a s
10

t h a t t h i s re f e r e n c e g ro u p h a d b e e n e st a b l i sh e d t o . . . h a d
b e e n p r o p e rl y e st a b l i s h e d a n d h a d b e e n e st a b l i s h e d t o , a s i t
w e re , a s a l m o st a s h i t s q u a d t o g e t ri d o f p e o p l e t h a t w e r e
p e r c e i v e d t o b e o p p o s e d t o so m e o f w h a t t h e m i n i st e r h a d
w a n t e d t o a ch i e v e a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e .
A n d I u s e t h e w o rd “ h i t s q u a d ” i n i n v e rt e d c o m m a s
b e ca u s e I d o n o t b e l i e ve t h a t i t w a s M r M c B ri d e ’s t e st i m o n y
b u t I b e l i e v e i t i s t h e t h r u st o f h i s t e st i m o n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

N o , t h a t o n e i s f i n e s u b j e ct t o w h a t

e vi d e n c e , o b vi o u s l y, i s t h e re a t t h i s st a g e .
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Of

c o u r se ,

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n s

of

the

C o m m i s si o n c o n t i n u e .
ADV HULLEY SC: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

But if that is what was said about the

re f e r e n c e g r o u p , t h a t m i g h t b e f i n e .
Page 36 of 231

And what other issues

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
are there?
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o t h e n e xt i s s u e t h a t h a s b e e n ra i se d

re l a t e s t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e p r i v a t e f i rm o f a t t o r n e y s t o
c o n d u ct a n i n v e st i g a t i o n w h i c h M r M c B ri d e c o m p l a i n t s w a s
a n i n ve st i g a t i o n t h a t o u g h t t o b e c o n d u ct e d . . . a l l i t a p p e a r s
to

have

been

a

c ri m i n a l

investigation

that

has

been

c o n d u ct e d b y a p r i v a t e f i r m o f a t t o r n e y s.
A n d s o t h e ci r c u m st a n c e s re l a t i n g t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f
this
10

firm

of

a t t o r n e y s,

in

the

f i r st

place,

that

s e e m s,

a c c o r d i n g t o M r M cB ri d e ’s t e st i m o n y, a p p e a r s t o b e i m p r o p e r
i n t h e f i r st i n st a n c e .
A n d s e c o n d i n st a n c e w h i c h r e l a t e s t o t h e o u t c o m e o f
t h a t i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d t h e re p o rt i t s e l f , t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e
re p o rt w h i ch M r M cB ri d e h a s c o m p l a i n t .
O b vi o u s l y,

Mr

M cB ri d e

complaints

that

the

f i rm

of

a t t o r n e y s c a m e t o a c o n c l u s i o n w h i c h i s j u st co m p l e t e l y
u n su st a i n a b l e i n s o f a r t h a t i s c o n c e r n e d .
The firm

co n c e r n e d

or a representative

c o n ce r n e d , w i l l c o m e a n d t e st i f y t o t h a t .
20

o f t h e f i rm

I n s o f a r a s m i st e r

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. H ’ m .
ADV HULLEY SC:

. . . i n s o f a r a s M r N h l e k o i s c o n ce rn e d , i t

re l a t e s m o st l y t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h i s f i rm o f a t t o r n e y s h a d b e e n
a p p o i n t e d a n d a c c o r d i n g t o M r M c B ri d e ’s e v i d e n c e , t o u s e
the language that he used, be tuned.
Page 37 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
T h a t i s Mr N h l e k o , a n d t h e f i rm w e r e i n c a h o o t s t o u s e
t h i s l a n g u a g e i n o rd e r t o a c h i e ve a p a rt i c u l a r o u t c o m e w h i c h
w a s t h a t t h e y w e re u l t i m a t e l y t o b e ch a r g e d o n a c ri m i n a l
l e v e l a n d a l s o i n t e r m s o f i n t e r n a l d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o ce s s e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, t h a t w o u l d f o l l o w w i t h . . . w i t h i n w h a t I

c a l l t h e i m p o rt a n t i s s u e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

So that is fine.

And then, what would be

a n o t h e r i s su e ?
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h e a d d i t i o n a l i s s u e r e l a t e s t o t h e a ct u a l
i n st i t u t i o n o f t h e c ri m i n a l p ro c e e d i n g s t h a t e m a n a t e d . . . t h a t
st e m m e d o r a r o s e i n t h e w a ke o f t h e p r o d u ct i o n o f t h a t
re p o rt .
A n d t h e r e w a s a c ri m i n a l i n ve st i g a t i o n t h a t st a rt e d a n d
u l t i m a t e l y r e su l t e d . . . w a s u l t i m a t e l y w i t h d r a w n .

It was a

c ri m i n a l c a s e a g a i n st M r M c B ri d e , M r K u b a a n d M r S e s o k o .
A n d w h e r e Mr M c B ri d e s a y s t h a t t h e e n t i r e p r o c e s s
re l a t e d t o t h a t w a s i m p r o p e r.

He implicates a number of

p e o p l e i n re l a t i o n t o t h a t , t h a t c ri m i n a l i n ve st i g a t i o n .
20

B u t a p a rt f r o m t h e m i n i st e r, o n e o f w h o m i s su p p o s e d t o
c o m e a n d t e st i f y o n We d n e s d a y a n d t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e
p r o s e c u t i o n w i t h i n t h e N PA’s o ff i ce a n d h o w t h a t p r o s e c u t i o n
t o o k p l a c e . S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , w h a t I a m l o o ki n g a t i s w h a t w o u l d

t h e i s su e s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 38 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : To M r N h l e k o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t o d a y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S h a l l I r e f r e sh t h e m ?
CHAIRPERSON:

...in

re l a t i o n

to

Mr

N h l e ko

because

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o M r N h l e ko ’s i n v o l v e m e n t i n i n s t i t u t i n g

t h o se o r i n h o w t h o s e c ri m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s c a m e a b o u t
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

...because it seems that Mr Nhleko did

p l a y a r o l e i n e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e cri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n a ct u a l l y
t o o k o ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . O k a y. N o , t h a t i s i m p o rt a n t t o cl a ri f y
b e ca u s e o t h e r w i s e t h e q u e st i o n w o u l d b e , i s i t s u g g e st e d
t h a t h e g o t i n v o l v e d i n d e ci si o n s t h a t s h o u l d b e m a d e b y t h e
N PA ?
ADV HULLEY SC: I agree.
CHAIRPERSON:

Or

did

he...

is

it

s u g g e st e d

that

he

i n f l u e n c e d t h e m a ki n g o f c e rt a i n d e ci si o n s. S o t h a t i s w h a t I
20

a m l o o ki n g . . .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Because as I see it, today should look at

d e ci si o n s t h a t h e m a d e o r w h a t e v e r o t h e r c o n d u ct , yo u k n o w,
t h a t h e i s i m p l i ca t e d i n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
Page 39 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

Rather

than

c o n d u ct

of

other

people

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . d e ci s i o n s m a d e b y o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t m a y
h a ve a d v e r s e l y a ff e ct e d M r M c B ri d e a n d w h o e v e r e l s e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s.

S o p a rt i c u l a rl y, i t re l a t e s t o t h e

p r o c e s s b y w h i ch h a vi n g r e c e i v e d t h e re p o rt , w h y t h e p ri v a t e
f i rm o f a t t o r n e y s. . . h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t t h e c h a r g e s, t h o s e
a r e t h e c ri m i n a l c h a r g e s, w e r e u l t i m a t e l y i n st i t u t e d b e ca u s e
10

i t s e e m s t h a t t h e m i n i st r y p l a y e d a ro l e i n t h a t .
A n d o f co u r s e , i t s e e m s t h a t M r N h l e k o a s t h e h e a d o f
t h a t m i n i st ry, w o u l d h a v e o f c o u r s e h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n
e n su ri n g t h a t h a p p e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. Wo u l d t h a t c o v e r t h e i s s u e s?
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t w o u l d co v e r t h e i s s u e s a s f a r a s

that is concerned.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w o u l d c o v e r t h e i s s u e s.

O k a y.

No,

that is fine.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

T h e n i n r e l a t i o n t o . . . t h e n e xt p o i n t M r

Chairperson related to the appointment of Mr Ntlemeza to
t a k e o v e r. . . s o r r y.

O f G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a t o t a ke o v e r t h e

p o si t i o n o f a . . . L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l D r a m a t w h o w a s a t t h e
t i m e h a d b e e n t h e h e a d o f t h e H AW K S .
A n d j u st t o p u t i t i n c o n t e xt o f c o u r s e .
i n v e st i g a t i o n

had

been

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n

Page 40 of 231

The initial
which

had

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
i m p l i c a t e d m i st e r.

S o rr y.

L i e u t e n a n t G e n e ra l D r a m a t a n d

L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l L e b e y a , a ri si n g o u t o f t h a t .
A n d o n c e t h e t w o I P I D r e p o rt s h a d b e e n p r o d u ce d a n d
a r i si n g o u t o f t h o s e t w o I P I D r e p o rt s a n d t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n
re l a t i n g t o t h a t b y t h e m i n i st ry, t h i s i s n o w a n i n v e s t i g a t i o n
w h i c h h a d . . . w h i c h p r o c e e d e d t h e H AW K S ( ? ) i n ve st i g a t i o n a r i si n g o u t o f t h a t , Mr K u b a st a t e s i n h i s a ff i d a vi t t h a t h e
re c e i v e d a t e l e p h o n e c a l l f r o m G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a i n w h i c h
G e n e r a l N t l e m e za i n f o rm e d h i m t h a t h e m u st w a t c h t h e n e w s
10

b e ca u s e t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a h i t o n m i st e r. . . G e n e r a l
Dramat.
He puts that date at the 6th of December of 2014.

On

t h a t v e r y d a y, t h e 6 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , M r N h l e k o se n t a
letter to Mr Dramat in which he called upon Mr Dramat to
e x p l a i n w h y. . . o r t o g i v e r e a s o n s w h y h e s h o u l d n o t b e
s u s p e n d e d o n t h e 2 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r o f t h a t s a m e y e a r.
General Dramat was then suspended.
S o t h e p o i n t t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e i s t h a t i t i s j u st f a r t o o
m u c h o f a c o i n ci d e n c e t h a t t h e . . . t h a t L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l
20

N t l e m e z a w o u l d h a v e kn o w n a b o u t t h i s o n t h e v e r y d a y t h a t
t h e m i n i st e r m a d e t h e . . . s e n t t h e l e t t e r t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
So

it

general...

is
that

communication
Ntlemeza

and

been

implied

or

Mr

Nhleko

not...

with
they

m i st e r. . .
were

inferred

or

t r yi n g

from

m u st

have

r a t h e r,
to

Page 41 of 231

them

ensure

with
that

been

that
in

General
General

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Ntlemeza

was

ultimately

appointed

as the

Head

of

the

H AW K S .
A n d t h e n a ri si n g o u t o f t h a t , o f co u r s e , a r e t h e i s s u e s
re l a t e d t o t h e a ct u a l su s p e n si o n o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t b u t t h a t
also flows from the same thing.
T h e n M r C h a i r, t h e r e i s t h e q u e s t i o n o f M r N h l e k o ’s
i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e su s p e n si o n o f v a r i o u s p e o p l e w i t h i n I P I D
a n d t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e s se s w i t h i n I P I D .
I n re l a t i o n t o M r K u b a .
10

T h e . . . M r K u b a h a d t e st i f i e d

a b o u t c e rt a i n e v e n t s w h i c h t o o k p l a c e j u st b e f o r e h e w a s
p l a c e d o n s u s p e n si o n a n d h e j u st s p o ke a b o u t o n e o f t h e
PA’s f r o m h i s. . . f r o m t h e I P I D h e a d o ff i c e w h o t r a v e l l e d u p t o
P o l o k w a n e t o h a n d o v e r a l e t t e r o f s u s p e n si o n t h a t t h e
m i n i st e r w a n t e d t o m a k e a v a i l a b l e t o Mr K u b a o r. . .

and so

h e sp o k e a b o u t t h a t i n ci d e n t .
I u n d e r st a n d t h a t t h e . . . i t i s. . . t h e m o st r e c e n t a ff i d a vi t
t h a t i s co m i n g f r o m M r N h l e k o w o u l d a d d r e s s. . . a d d r e s s e s
that issue.
I u n d e r st a n d , i f I r e a d t h e a ff i d a vi t c o rr e ct l y, i t s e e m s
20

t h a t M r N h l e ko i s d i s p u t i n g t h e f a c t t h a t h e h a d g i v e n t h o s e
i n st r u ct i o n s.

A n d t h e n t h e r e i s a l s o a C a p e To w n m e e t i n g

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wo u l d t h e su s p e n si o n n o t h a v e b e e n o r t h e
s u s p e n si o n d e c i s i o n n o t h a ve b e e n t a ki n g b y t h e a ct i n g
d i re ct o r o r. . . ?
Page 42 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e a ct i n g e x e c u t i v e d i r e ct o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Or is the suggestion that are being made

t h a t t h e a ct i n g d i r e ct o r h a d a ct e d o n t h e i n st r u ct i o n s o r
re q u e st o r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o b a si c a l l y, u n d e r t h e I P I D A ct . . . p a r d o n
M r C h a i r p e r so n .

T h a t i s a b s o l u t e l y co r r e ct .

So under the

I P I D A ct , o f c o u r s e , t h o s e d e ci si o n s, o p e r a t i o n a l d e ci si o n s
s h o u l d b e t a ke n b y t h e e x e c u t i v e d i re ct o r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

And the complaint, insofar as that is

c o n ce r n e d , i s t h a t t h e e x e c u t i ve d i r e ct o r o u g h t t o h a v e t a k e n
i f h e h a d r e a s o n t o b e l i e ve t h a t t h e r e w a s a n y m i s c o n d u ct
t h a t h a d b e e n co m m i t t e d a n d w h i c h w a rr a n t e d a s u s p e n s i o n
b u t i t sh o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e e x e c u t i v e d i r e ct o r w h o t o o k t h a t
d e ci si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I n t r u t h , t h e s u g g e st i o n i s. . . w e l l , t h e

i n f e r e n c e d r a w n f ro m t h e f a ct i s t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o t o o k
t h a t d e ci si o n a n d i m p o s e d i t u p o n t h e e x e c u t i v e d i r e ct o r w a s
20

i n f a ct t h e m i n i st e r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

. . . w h o h a d g i v e n i n st ru ct i o n s a s f a r t h a t

i s c o n ce r n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e n t h e r e i s t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e C a p e
Page 43 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
To w n m e e t i n g t h a t h a d b e e n c a l l e d b y t h e m i n i st e r ’s o ff i ce .
M r K u b a t e st i f i e d t o t h e f a ct t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e e t i n g t h a t h e
h a d b e e n i n vi t e d t o , t o m e e t w i t h t h e m i n i st e r i n C a p e To w n
a n d t h a t h e w a s c o n t a ct e d b y t h e m i n i st e r ’s PA w h o h a d
made several attempts for him to meet... to travel through to
C a p e To w n .
And the complaint was because that because these were
o p e r a t i o n a l i s su e s t h e m i n i st e r o u g h t t o h a v e a p p r o a c h e d t h e
e x e cu t i v e d i re ct o r t o m e e t w i t h a n y o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e
10

b e n e a t h h i m a n d t h e m i n i st e r d i d n o t d o t h a t b u t t h e m i n i st e r
w a s, i n f a ct , a p p r o a ch i n g M r K u b a d i re ct l y.
A n d t h e i n f e r e n c e t h a t M r M c B ri d e c e rt a i n l y d r a w s f r o m
t h a t , i s t h a t i t w a s t h e i n t e n t i o n o f t h e m i n i st e r t o t ry a n d
i m p r o p e rl y g e t h i m , t h a t i s M r K u b a , t o i m p l i c a t e M r M cB ri d e
i n t h e s o - c a l l e d o f t h e f i r st r e p o rt t o p r o d u ce w h a t w a s
t h e n . . . w h a t b e c a m e k n o w n a s. . . h a s b e c o m e k n o w n a s t h e
s e c o n d r e p o rt .
N o w t h a t i s w h a t t h e . . . t h e i n f e r e n c e t h a t M r M c B ri d e
d r a w s f r o m t h a t a s I u n d e r st a n d i t b a se d o n t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t

20

h a s b e e n f i l e d r e c e n t l y.
T h e m i n i st e r w i l l c h a l l e n g e t h e q u e st i o n o f w h e t h e r h e
h a d i n vi t e d Mr K u b a t o t h a t m e e t i n g , b u t a s I u n d e r st a n d i t ,
h e a c kn o w l e d g e s t h a t h e d i d p h o n e Mr K u b a b u t i t w a s o n l y
to

i n st r u ct

him

to

cooperate

with

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n w h i c h a t t h a t st a g e w a s u n d e r w a y.
Page 44 of 231

We r k sm a n s

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
And so Mr Chairperson, I believe those are the issues
t h a t w i l l b e d e a l t w i t h i n s o f a r a s t h e e vi d e n ce o f Mr N h l e k o i s
c o n ce r n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

No, that is fine.

Now you did

i n d i c a t e t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t M r M o k h a ri . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . t h e c o u n s e l f o r m i st e r w o u l d l i k e t o

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A d d r e s s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
st a t e m e n t .

...what you referred to as an opening

I h a v e . . . I n o t h a d o c c a si o n , I t h i n k, t o a l l o w

o p e n i n g st a t e m e n t s i n t h i s ci r c u m st a n ce s b u t I t h i n k I sh o u l d
ra t h e r p u t t h a t t o M r M o kh a ri i f h e w o u l d l i ke t o m a k e i t
b e ca u s e i f I a l l o w i t w i t h h i m , I w i l l h a ve t o b e p r e p a r e d t o
a l l o w i t w i t h e ve r y b o d y.

S o l e t u s. . . s o l e t m e h e a r w h e t h e r

he wishes to pursue the issue.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A s i t p l e a s e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

Ja.

I d o n o t re m e m b e r M r M o k h a ri

t h a t I h a ve a l l o w e d a n y o p e n i n g st a t e m e n t s b e f o r e a n d I a m
20

re l u ct a n t t o a l l o w i t b e ca u s e t h e n i f a n y o t h e r co u n s e l w o u l d
ask for it in the future I would have to allow it. So I have got
t h a t re l u ct a n c e .

So what do you say?

H o w st ro n g l y d o yo u

feel about it?
ADV MOKHARI SC:

I t h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

I a p p r e ci a t e t h a t .

T h e r e a so n I r e q u e st e d t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s t h a t I s h a l l
Page 45 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
m a k e a n o p e n i n g st a t e m e n t w a s t o d e a l w i t h t h e p r o c e d u r a l
m a t t e r s w h i ch M r N h l e k o i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e w o u l d r a t h e r n o t
d e a l w i t h s o t h a t h e ca n g o st r a i g h t t o t h e e vi d e n c e .
A n d t h a t i f I a m a b l e t o d e a l w i t h t h e m r e g a rd i n g t h e
p r o c e s s e s t h a t h a v e u n f o l d e d f r o m t h e t i m e w h e n M r M c B ri d e
c a m e t o t e st i f y u n t i l w h e n h e i s n o w g i v e n t h e o p p o rt u n i t y.
So he prefers those matters be dealt with by myself
i n st e a d o f h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
10

ADV MOKHARI SC:

H e w o u l d p re f e r t o g o st r a i g h t t o t h e

e vi d e n c e h i m se l f .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , m a yb e t h a t a s si st b e c a u s e t h e o n e

t h i n g t h a t I h a v e d o n e o n s o m e o c c a si o n s w h e n a re q u e st
has been made, is allow a witness a little bit of time before
b e i n g q u e st i o n e d t o s a y so m e t h i n g .

I allowed it with Mr

M o k o n y a n e l a st M o n d a y. I a l l o w e d w i t h t h e f o rm e r p r e si d e n t
a n d m a y h a v e a l l o w e d i t w i t h m a y b e a f e w o t h e r w i t n e s s e s.
S o M r N h l e k o w o u l d h a v e b e e n e n t i t l e d t o s a y, “ M a y I
a l s o h a v e s o m e t i m e b e f o r e I a m q u e st i o n e d t o m a k e so m e
20

st a t e m e n t s”.
So the way in which we could do it is if you take the time
that I would have given him to do that.

Then you do that.

S o i n t h e f u t u r e , I c a n a l w a y s s a y, i t i s n o t g o i n g t o b e b o t h .
A D V M O K H A R I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

It is not going to be... or it is going to be
Page 46 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
o n e . Yo u m u st c h o o se w h e t h e r i t i s t h e w i t n e s s w h o w i l l t a k e
that time or it is counsel.

So I think I will allow it on that

u n d e r st a n d i n g .
A D V M O K H A R I S C : Ye s, i n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M O K H A R I S C : S o h e h a s e l e ct e d i t w i l l b e d o n e b y m y
and he is not going to repeat it himself.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, ye s.

H o w m u c h t i m e d o y o u h a ve i n

mind?
10

A D V M O K H A R I S C : N o t m o r e t h a n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : F i ve , t e n m i n u t e s ?
A D V M O K H A R I S C : N o t m o r e t h a n t e n m i n u t e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t .
ADV MOKHARI SC:

Ye s.

I t h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

C h a i r, M r

N h l e k o i s r e l i e v e d t h a t f i n a l l y h e i s a ff o r d e d t h i s o p p o rt u n i t y
t o p u t h i s si d e o f t h e st o ry.

H e w a t c h e d M c B ri d e t e st i f yi n g

o n t e l e vi si o n w i t h o u t h a vi n g r e ce i v e d M c B ri d e ’s a ff i d a vi t
w h i c h o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n g i v e n t o h i m i n t e rm s o f R u l e 3 . 3
o f t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s R u l e s.
20

He, on the second day of

M c B r i d e ’ s t e s t i m o n y, i n s t r u c t e d a n a t t o r n e y, M r M a b u z a , t o
come to the Commission to inform the Commission or the
evidence leaders that Mr Nhleko has watched Mr McBride
then testifying and mentioning his name but he has not
been favoured with anything which suggests that McBride
was going to say those things. It was only at that time that
Page 47 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
M r M a b u z a , t h e a t t o r n e y, w a s f u r n i s h e d t h e n w i t h a c o p y o f
McBride’s affidavit.
Again, Chairperson, Mr Nhleko only heard about the
evidence that was given by Mr Sesoko and Mr Kuba again
without having been furnished with the Rule 3.3 notice
from the Commission that the two have implicated him or
might implicate him but he was also informed that in their
testimony they also mentioned him in the manner that
s u g g e s t e d t h a t h e m i g h t h a v e c o m m i t t e d s o m e i m p r o p r i e t y.
10

On

several

occasions,

Chairperson,

Mr

Nhleko

through his attorneys wrote to the Commission, of course,
and the Commission’s secretariat after then he has made
an application to the Commission to testify and also to
cross-examine Mr McBride as to when will he be given an
o p p o r t u n i t y t o t e s t i f y.
What he was told was that his affidavit has been
given to Mr McBride for a response but the response never
came from Mr McBride and to date he is unaware of any
response to his affidavit which came from Mr McBride but it
20

seems as if that has not been responded.
When he made follow ups as to when will be given
an opportunity to put his side of the story given the serious
impact, the allegations that were made by Mr McBride to
his career prospects and that he is unable to find a job as
a result of that he was told that he should wait and that he
Page 48 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
will be told.

Until when Mr Nhleko threatened legal action

against the Commission that he will rather go to court to
c o m p e l t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o t r e a t h i m f a i r l y, t h e n h e w a s t o l d
that he will be given a date before the end of June and
indeed he was given that date which was the 14 May to
c o m e a n d t e s t i f y.
O n t h e 11 M a y, w h e n h e w a s h e a r i n g n o t h i n g f r o m
the Commission, his lawyers had to write a letter to the
Commission
10

to

enquire

whether

all

systems

go

and

everything was in order for him to testify on the 14th only
for his attorneys to be told just two days before the 14 May
when

Mr

Nhleko

was

already

in

Johannesburg,

having

conducted preparations with his legal team, that there will
be no hearings at all and that he will be told as to when he
will come.
And, Mr Nhleko, who had travelled all the way from
KZN to consult with his legal representatives and to attend
the hearing, had to certainly then return to KZN empty
handed.
20

Mr Nhleko received the notice now to attend this
hearing

t o d a y,

accepts

that

which
today

he
the

gladly

accepts

Commission

is

o p p o r t u n i t y t o s a y h i s s i d e o f t h e s t o r y.

and

he

giving

gladly
him

an

H o w e v e r, t h e

Commission was still not forthcoming to assist him in terms
of the processes that will unfold when he testifies in a
Page 49 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
sense

that

documentation

and

the

index

to

the

documentation and how documents will be identified was
never

forthcoming

until

in

the

afternoon

of

yesterday

Nevertheless, Mr Nhleko took a position that this shall not
be used as a cause for a postponement because he wants
to have his day before this Commission.

He said that he

has read all the documents and he knows each of the
documents which are relevant for the inquiry and for him to
t e s t i f y, i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r t h a t h e h a s r e c e i v e d t h e i n d e x i n
10

the afternoon of yesterday as long as the documents can
be identified in terms of which page and that document will
be found, he will be able to identify those documents.
So Mr Nhleko is happy that this Commission is
affording him this opportunity and he will deal with the
crisp issues that the Chairperson has identified because Mr
Nhleko from the beginning, he has been clear that the
issue that is relevant and central for the Commission to
enquire upon is whether as a result of the two reports
which emanated from IPID, one of the 22 January and the

20

other

one

of

the

18

March

2014,

resulting

in

him

com missioning a law firm, Werksmans, was that a state
capture and whether Werksm ans in accepting the brief in
conducting the investigation was a state capture and a
collusion between the law firm and Mr Nhleko and whether
he was not required as a minister upon receiving the
Page 50 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
recom mendations of Werksm ans not to implement them
e v e n t h o u g h h e w a s h a p p y w i t h t h e m a n d w h e t h e r, w h e n
you

accepted

the

recommendations

of

Werksm ans

and

instituted disciplinary proceedings against Mr McBride, he
was committing a state capture and an improper conduct in
collusion with Werksmans.
So those are the issues that he has identified to be
central for the Commission to determine.

But also, he

w o u l d l i k e t h e n t h e C o m m i s s i o n , w h i l s t h e i s n o t a l a w y e r,
10

to interrogate the judgments of the High Court where Mr
McBride challenged his suspension and the institution of
disciplinary proceedings as being unconstitutional because
t h e M i n i s t e r, a c c o r d i n g t o h i m , w a s g i v e n u n c o n s t i t u t i o n a l
powers by Section 6(3) read with Section 6(6) of IPID Act
whether that judgment has pronounced on the allegations
of

Mr

McBride

that

indeed

the

minister

was

acting

improperly and that the Constitutional Court confirmed the
unconstitutionality of Section 6(3) and 6(6) but never for
once ever said that the minister acted improperly and also
20

then we would like to – and this Commission will enquire
into whether then the Constitutional Court and the High
Court

were

remiss

in

not

pronouncing

that

Mr

Nhleko

committed an improper conduct because that has never
been the case.
But also then, the Commission will also, as a matter
Page 51 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
of the legal issues that arise from the Constitutional Court
judgment,

whether

the

fact

that

the

suspension

of

Mr

McBride was never lifted even by the Constitutional Court
but remained intact on the order of the Constitutional Court
for 30 days to allow parliament to take a decision on
whether Mr McBride should be disciplined and parliament
never

took

McBride

any

was

decision

reinstated,

until

30

whether

days
that

lapsed
on

its

and
own

Mr
was

indicative of Mr Nhleko’s ulterior purpose.
10

S o , a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, t h e r e a r e s o m e l e g a l
issues which Mr Nhleko, whilst he will try to articulate
them,

him,

not

being

a

l a w y e r,

may

not

be

able

to

articulate them but the Commission is well-versed then to
be able to read those judgments and the Constitutional
Court

judgment

and

to

formulate

a

view

as

to

what

precisely did the Constitutional Court find and why did the
Constitutional Court not uplift Mr McBride’s suspension, if
indeed

Mr

McBride
20

Nhleko

to

remain

i m p r o p e r l y,
on

and

suspension

why
and

it

allowed

also

then

Mr
why

parliament was remiss in its duties to take a decision one
way or the other about Mr McBride should face disciplinary
proceedings.

S o , a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, M r N h l e k o s a y s

that he is in the hands of the Commission and he is
available to answer all questions that may be put to him.
Insofar as I heard Mr Hulley then saying something
Page 52 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
about the cross-examination of Mr Kuba and Sesoko, Mr
Nhleko’s never given those affidavits but of course then
they were given to him last week and he has taken a view
that there is nothing which will warrant him having to
cross-examine Mr Sesoko and Mr Kuba because nothing
t u r n s o n t h e i r a f f i d a v i t s . T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you, Mr Mokhari.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Thank you very much for the time.
I am sure that some of the things that

you have said which caused Mr Nhleko concern about
m a y b e n o t g e t t i n g s o m e n o t i c e s e i t h e r a t a l l o r t i m e o u s l y, I
have a suspicion that some of those things, even if not all
may be true while most of time Rule 3(3) notices have gone
o u t a n d b e e n r e c e i v e d t i m e o u s l y b y, I w o u l d i m a g i n e , m o s t
people.

There have been occasions when notices have

either not been received timeously or not at all.

A c t u a l l y,

a s r e c e n t l y a s l a s t M o n d a y, M s S i k h a k h a n e a p p e a r e d h e r e
for Mr Fraser and Mr Manzini complained or his clients
complained that they had not been given the 3.3 notices.
20

B u t , a s I s a y, m o s t o f t h e t i m e o n e d o e s n o t h e a r a n y
complaints and one assumes that that is because people
r e c e i v e t h e m t i m e o u s l y.

So Mr Hulley might or might not

be able to deal with some of those things and because
some of them may have happened before this time in the
Commission but if there are any problems that happened,
Page 53 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
which should not have happened like notices not being
received

on

time,

it

would

really

be

administrative

challenges within the secretariat, it would never have been
because somebody did not want him to receive them.
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , I a c c e p t t h a t , C h a i r.

Ye s , y e s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

In fact, all what we are happy about

is that we are now here.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

A n d M s [ i n d i s t i n c t ] 11 . 4 7 w a s a b l e t o

com prehensively respond to the affidavit of Mr McBride.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Well, of course, the Chairperson will

see in the bundle that there are affidavits of like Mr July
which

are

part

of

the

bundle

of

the

hearing

and

supplementary affidavits of McB ride, Kuba and Sesoko, but
a l l t h o s e a f f i d a v i t s t h e y w e r e r e s p o n d i n g t o M r J u l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
20

So at no stage have they responded

to the affidavit of Mr Nhleko.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

Well, from what you say it

appears to me that there certainly should have been a
response from Mr McBride to Mr Nhleko’s affidavit and so
on.

But let’s see how things go and I must just say that I

am aware that Mr Nhleko at some stage was corresponding
Page 54 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
with the Commission expressing his concern at not been
given a chance to come and testify or cross-examine Mr
McBride.

The fact is simply that the Commission has to

follow its own programme, there would be hundreds of
other people who also want to get their time as soon as
possible so it’s inevitable that people are not going to get
their chance as quickly as they would like, so – but I am
sure he understands that.
ADV MOKHARI SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t , C h a i r.

J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
And while they are sanitizing, just say

that, Mr Mokhari, I am aware that over this past week there
have been challenges in the secretariat of the Commission
which prepares bundles, there have been delays, it is
unfortunate that you did not get, when Mr Nhleko did not
g e t t h e b u n d l e s t i m e o u s l y, I t h i n k t h e C o m m i s s i o n m u s t
take

responsibility

for

that.

There

have

been

certain

administrative challenges but we are grateful that your
20

attitude and Mr Nhleko’s attitude has been to say we do
n o t w a n t t o p o s t p o n e , w e w a n t t o u s e t h i s o p p o r t u n i t y.
we

apologise

certainly

about

the

bundles

not

So

being

available in time, that is a problem, that is within the
secretariat which has been looked into.
ADV MOKHARI SC:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
Page 55 of 231

In fact, in respect

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
of the bundles and we are not saying that we have been
inconvenienced in terms of the contents of the documents.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Because we are the following with

the content, the documents.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

The inconvenience will simply be in

respect of the …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Numbering.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Where do you find it.

Ye s , y e s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

But the Chair has come with a

p r a c t i c a l v i e w, I m e a n , a s o l u t i o n o f h o w w e d e a l w i t h i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

And we also accept.

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

Mr Hulley?

ADV HULLEY SC:
20

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

M r C h a i r, o f

course the – in trying to – and I am not sure that I should
take up some of the time relating to the issues that have
been raised by my learned friend regarding the procedural
aspects.
the

I am certainly in a position to address some of

complaints,

I

was

not

[inaudible

simultaneously]
Page 56 of 231

–

speaking

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I t h i n k y o u c a n a d d r e s s t h o s e t h a t

you are able to address but I would like in due course,
m a y b e t o m o r r o w, I w o u l d l i k e t o k n o w w h y – w h e t h e r
factually all the issues that he has raised about Mr Nhleko
n o t r e c e i v i n g c e r t a i n t h i n g s t i m e o u s l y.

Even in regard to

l a s t y e a r, I w o u l d l i k e t o k n o w s o t h a t o n e , w e s h o u l d k n o w
it is factually correct and two what, if anything, still needs
to be done about it.

10

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

But I am sure your juniors have been

making notes about this.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
So I think you can deal with those that

you are able to.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Indeed.

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

Mr

C h a i r, a c c o r d i n g t o t h e r e c o r d s t h a t I h a v e r e c e i v e d i t
a p p e a r s t h a t M r M c B r i d e w o u l d h a v e t e s t i f i e d o n t h e 11
April, the 12 April, the 15th and the 16th April, according to
the records that I have over here, it appears that a notice
20

dated the 8 April would have been sent to Mr Nhleko of
2 0 1 9 , b y t h e w a y.
Then

insofar

as

the

evidence

of

Mr

Sesoko

is

concerned – and when I say a notice I am referring to the
Rule 3.3 notice - insofar as the evidence of Mr Sesoko is
concerned, according to what I have here, Mr Sesoko
Page 57 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
would have testified on the 24 September 2019 and it
seems that a notice in terms of Rule 3.3 was sent out to
him on the 10 September of 2019.
days before that.

It appears to be 15

According to the schedule I have got

there was a receipt which was confirmed on the day – on
t h e v e r y s a m e d a y.
Then in relation to Mr Kuba, the notice was sent on
t h e 11 S e p t e m b e r o f 2 0 1 9 a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t M r K u b a
testified on the 26 September of 2019.
10

So there does

seem to have been insofar as Mr McBride’s testimony is
concerned, there seems to have been about three days
notice that was given if this schedule is to be accepted as
correct which, for purposes I accept it is correct, but in
relation to Mr Kuba and Mr Sesoko, there seems to have
been at least 15 and in one instance 16 days notice that
had been given.
So that is what I can address at this stage.

I know

that there was correspondence that had flowed previously
in relation to Mr Nhleko’s desire t o come and testify and he
20

had been notified that he was going to testify during the
period which was during the lockdown but then because of
a range of different issues that had arisen relating to the
lockdown

and

whether

the

Commission

was

ready

to

proceed at that stage, that could not happen.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Ja, I think that the May date that he
Page 58 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
may have been given had been determined together with
dates, other dates for other people on the understanding
that the lockdown would have ended on the 16 April.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

E x a c t l y.
Because that is when it was supposed to

end but then the lockdown was extended.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct.
And that is why all of those people who

were supposed to have appeared towards the end of April
10

and in May – actually in early June, all of those had to be
postponed, so it was simply because of the extension of
the lockdown.
ADV HULLEY SC:

That is so.

If I understand the

complaint that has been raised by my learned friend, what
he is complaining about, is the late notification of that but
it was always – given the fact that there had been an
extension, if my recollection serves me well, it was always
a danger that arose as a result of the extension.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .
T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. M r C h a i r, I w o u l d

like to refer to the – if we might be permitted at this stage
then to deal with the evidence of Mr Nhleko that we can
take you through …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I am thinking whether you want to deal

with that before the oath is administered or you want to
Page 59 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
deal with that after?
ADV HULLEY SC:

No, no, no, I am going to lead his

evidence so you have to start by administering the oath
first.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s .
T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Please administer the oath or affirmation.
REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record.
MR
10

NHLEKO:

Nkosinathi

Phiwayinkosi

Thamsanqa

Nhleko.
REGISTRAR:

Do you have any objection to taking the

prescribed oath?
MR NHLEKO:

[IsiZulu]

REGISTRAR:

Do you consider the oath to be binding on

your conscience?
MR NHLEKO:

[IsiZulu]

REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the
truth?
20

If so, please raise your right hand and say so help

me God.
MR NHLEKO:

[IsiZulu]

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very much, that was – the

responses were in isiZulu and I think Mr Nhleko will just
have to indicate whether he intends giving evidence in
isiZulu or in English. Mr Nhleko?
Page 60 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

No, thank you very much, Chairperson of

the Commission and members of the Commission.
I

would

like

to

attempt

my

level

best

at

Indeed,

English

in

presenting you my evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

And I am not too sure whether am I allowed

t o d o s o s t r a i g h t a w a y, a s w e s p e a k .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, I c a n n o t h e a r y o u .

I know

you are entitled to look at your counsel, you are paying
10

him, but I think …[intervenes]
MR NHLEKO:

I was basically just looking for a signal

from his end as well because my intention is to basically
present my side of the story and I am asking whether am I
now allowed to do so.

I think there has been quite a bit of

technical

dealt

issues

we

with.

Now

that

has

been

O k a y, l e t u s t a k e i t s t e p b y s t e p .

I just

dispensed with and then I would like to go ahead.
CHAIRPERSON:

want to you to confirm first whether you will be giving
evidence in English or in isiZulu?
20

I did not hear the

answer to that question.
MR NHLEKO:

I did say I will try my level best in, you

k n o w, t o a t t e m p t t o s p e a k E n g l i s h .
CHAIRPERSON:

I think your level best will be very good.

Yo u s e e , y o u g a v e y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h e q u e s t i o n s f o r t h e
oath in isiZulu.

For the record we need to confirm what –
Page 61 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
confirm those answers in English.

We did not provide an

interpreter who is going to tell us but I know that you can
do so.

Do you want to confirm what you said in isiZulu so

that the record reflects when you were asked or would you
like

to

be

asked

again?

Yo u

cannot

remember

the

questions?
MR NHLEKO:

Honourable Chairperson, I would really

prefer to be led in that respect, ja.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, m a y b e – d o y o u m i n d i f w e d o i t i n

English?
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, no, it is alright, ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, so that we do not have to translate.

Ye s , I c a n a c c o m m o d a t e y o u t h e r e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Alright, certainly it can be done in

isiZulu, it is just that if it in isiZulu then we have got to
translate it for the record.
REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record.
MR

NHLEKO:

My

name

is

Nkosinathi

Phiwayinkosi

Thamsanqa Nhleko.
20

REGISTRAR:

Do you have any objection to taking the

prescribed oath?
MR NHLEKO:

I certainly do not.

REGISTRAR:

Do you consider the oath to be binding on

your conscience?
MR NHLEKO:

Indeed it is.
Page 62 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the
truth?

If so, please raise your right hand and say so help

me God.
MR NHLEKO:

So help me God.

REGISTRAR:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

O k a y, n o w I t h i n k e c a n g e t

to the issue you were raising.

I think you were saying

s o m e t h i n g a b o u t y o u w a n t t o g i v e y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y.
10

Just talk to me again about that or you..?
MR NHLEKO:

I was looking for a signal from my senior

counsel representing me in this particular matter whether
am

I

now

allowed

to

do

so,

proceed.

I

need

to

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
going

to

put

W e l l , M r H u l l e y, t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r i s

questions

and

when

you

answer

those

questions then you put your side of the story in regard to
that issue.

What I said to your counsel earlier on was that

what has happened sometimes that the witness would ask
20

to be given a time to make a statement and I have allowed
them but if I was going to allow him to speak then I would
not

allow

you

to

take

the

same

time,

so

it

is

not

a

d u p l i c a t i o n , b u t e v e n d u r i n g – e v e n i f w e d o i t t h i s w a y, y o u
will get a chance in regard to each point to put your side of
t h e s t o r y p r o p e r l y.
Page 63 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

N o , w i t h d u e r e s p e c t , C h a i r, I d i s a g r e e w i t h

that approach.
CHAIRPERSON:

As?

MR NHLEKO:

I disagree with

that approach largely

because essentially it is tantamount to channelling.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Sorry?
I am saying essentially that approach is

t a n t a m o u n t t o c h a n n e l l i n g w h a t i t i s t h a t I h a v e g o t t o s a y.
N o w, t h e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n r a n g e o f
10

issues that have been said.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

And that the issue at hand, we do not need

to be selective about it, we need to first and foremost to be
able to walk through and answer the critical question and
the

critical

question

is

what

happened

and

how

it

happened.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

Now I would have really – and I am not – I

do not have a problem with being questioned.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

In fact that can happen.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

NHLEKO:

Ye s .

B u t a f t e r I w o u l d h a v e p r e s e n t e d m y s t o r y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

Ja.

Ye s .
In

terms

of

what

Page 64 of 231

happened,

how

it

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
happened and essentially also what it is that I make the
particular issues that …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

No, no, we are not going to do it

like that, Mr Nhleko.

Mr Hulley is going to ask you

questions.

When he asks you a question in relation to

each point, I am saying that I will allow you to present your
side of the story in regard to that point.

When he has

finished with his questions, if there are still points, some
issues that you would like to address, you raise that with
10

me at that stage and then I hear what those issues are and
I will allow you to deal with them.
MR NHLEKO: Chairperson, that was not my understanding
in terms of the interaction between the two legal teams.
My team as well as the legal team of the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Well, that is how we have been doing it.
So may I – I do think that matter would

have to be dealt for it.
CHAIRPERSON:
w i t h e v e r y b o d y.
20

Well, that is how we have been doing it
That is how we have been doing it with

e v e r y b o d y, s o y o u g e t a s k e d q u e s t i o n s , y o u a n s w e r t h e m ,
y o u p u t y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y.

If you do not understand

the questions, you say so and you give your answer and
your answer might be one sentence, your answer might be
like a paragraph depending and we move to the next issue.
At the end, when he is finished with his questions, when I
Page 65 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
am finished with my questions, if you say there are some
issues that have not – I have not been given a chance to
deal with then I allow you to deal with them.
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a i r, i f I m a y c l a r i f y ?

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Nhleko’s confusion.

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
leaders
10

and

In fact, then what the evidence

ourselves

agreed

on

when

we

had

a

prehearing – of course it was subject to your approval.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Wa s t h a t M r H u l l e y w i l l a l l o w M r

N h l e k o t o n a r r a t e h i s s t o r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Like an opening statement or remarks,

opening remarks.
ADV MOKHARI SC:

No really opening statement because

I dealt with the procedural aspect, which I will repeat.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
20

But you will deal with the facts.

So

w e d e a l w i t h t h e f a c t s , y o u a l l o w h i m t o f l o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:

And then from there he will then

cross-examine him, so that is what was narrated to him,
that is why he has that confusion.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, you see, if the evidence leader
Page 66 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
says – if the evidence leader ’s question is broad and
allows you to say quite a lot, that is one thing.

If the

evidence question goes to a specific question, issue, that
is a different thing. So maybe it will help if we start, let us
see.
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e a n y c o m p l a i n t .

Let

us get started and then let us see.

10

ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

concerned.

I do not think your counsel is

So it may be that because you are not a

l a w y e r, I t h i n k a l l o f u s h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e r e i s
no problem in how we propose to do it.

In the end when

you are done, my chances are that you will feel that you
h a v e b e e n g i v e n a f a i r o p p o r t u n i t y.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y, n o , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a i r. I t i s

just that English is complicated. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

O k a y, a l r i g h t .
T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

M r N h l e k o , s o r r y,

you have already submitted an affidavit to the Com mission
and perhaps if I ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y M r H u l l e y.
Ye s , M r C h a i r ?
Yo u s e e o n e o f t h e t h i n g s M r N h l e k o I

want to try and control, you will have heard me say earlier
Page 67 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
that there are lots of lever arch files behind Mr Hulley and
lot of lever arch files, but as I see it the issues don’t seem
to me to warrant so many files, but maybe it is convenient
to have those files at hand to deal with whatever issues, so
I am more concerned, I want us to focus on what I call the
real issues, and not peripheral issues.
o u r t i m e p r o f i t a b l y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

In that way we use

O k a y, a l r i g h t .
T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r C h a i r.

Mr

Chair if I could just take you to the first bundle in the YC’s
10

of bundles, this is EXHIBIT Y – sorry 8 ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
that

we

know

O h , I a m s o r r y, l e t ’ s m a r k t h i s b u n d l e s o
whenever

we

refer

and

I

think

that

...[intervenes]
ADV HULLEY SC:

This Bundle Mr Chair will be, this is

LEA bundle, we can call it LEA1 and inside LEA1 would be
a number of exhibits, the first of those ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u a r e t o o f a s t , w e w i l l c a l l i t b u n d l e ?
LEA1.
LEA1?

ADV HULLEY SC: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

LEA1, okay that is the bundle.

Now the

witness’s bundle must be marked accordingly as well.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Correct, so ...[intervenes]
Somebody must mark it for him so that

when he is told Bundle LEA1 he must know which one that
Page 68 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
is.

Well you better show him which one is Bundle LEA1 so

that he will – ja, okay alright Mr Hulley then you can
explain.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you Mr Chair the – that bundle,

the first document that appears in that bundle is currently
an index, the second document, which is page two, is a
Notice of Motion and the – attached to the Notice of Motion
is the affidavit of Mr Nhleko.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And that document, the Notice of

Motion, affidavit and the Annexures attached to that Notice
of Motion run from page two to page 187 of Y8, we would
call that entire document Exhibit Y8(A).
CHAIRPERSON:

Well we don’t actually need the notice of

motion anymore, do we, or do we?
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I don’t believe we do…[intervenes].
Ja we should just start on the affidavit, I

think.

20

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ve r y w e l l .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, so, the affidavit – you want the

affidavit to be admitted as Exhibit?
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Y8(A)
Okay the affidavit of Mr Nkosinathi

Phiwayinkosi Thamsanqa Nhleko and its Annexures will be
admitted as Exhibit Y8(A).
Page 69 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay and then as and when you refer to

another stand-alone Exhibit, we’ll give it a number or you
already have given them?
ADV HULLEY SC:

What we’ll do is – we haven’t given it a

number thus far but what we’ll do is, we’ll take the lunch
adjournment to make sure we – what we don’t want is if we
go

to

the

next

document

and

call

that

document,

for

argum ent sake, B , because it’s second in t he – in term s of
10

what we’re discussing with Mr Nhleko then it throws the
sequence of everything out.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV HULLEY SC:

So, we would have to make sure that

the A, B and C also follows the numbering system as well.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay that’s fine.

ADV HULLEY SC:
have

the

So, Mr Nhleko, for your benefit do you

document

which

we’ve

just

currently

marked

Exhibit Y8A?
MR NHLEKO:
20

Ye s , I d o h a v e i t .

CHAIRPERSON:

So you can mark it if you did do so while

you

so,

were

doing

so

namely

the

first

page

of

your

affidavit at page five and I’m saying – when I say page five
I ’ m l o o k i n g a t t h e r e d t o p n u m b e r, y o u c a n t h e n m a r k i t
E x h i b i t Y 8 ( A ) , o k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

If you look at page five of the bundle
Page 70 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t h a t h a s b e e n g i v e n t o y o u s i r, l o o k a t t h e t o p , y o u ’ l l s e e
it’s in red.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u ’ l l s e e t h e r e ’ s a Y 8 - N P N - 0 0 0 5 , t h e

0005 refers to the pagination syst em, it’s the page number
and that’s the system that we’ll use.

So, when we refer to

t h e p a g e n u m b e r, y o u ’ l l w a n t t o l o o k a t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r
s e q u e n c e i n t e r m s o f t h e t o p r i g h t - h a n d c o r n e r.
MR NHLEKO:
10

ADV

O k a y.

HULLEY

SC:

So,

n o w,

this

I

would

like

to

take…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

So maybe, Mr Hulley we can also verify

– because I see there are two red numbers on each page.
S o , w h e n y o u r e f e r t o a p a g e n u m b e r, y o u ’ l l b e r e f e r r i n g t o
the top number not the…[intervenes].
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja do you understand Mr Nhleko.

Ye s , I d o .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h e t o p n u m b e r.

Ye s , a n d h e m i g h t n o t s a y, f o r e x a m p l e ,

page 0005 he will just say page five, so if you – just so you
c a n f o l l o w t h e p a g i n a t i o n , y e s M r H u l l e y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r C h a i r.

This

document is…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, h o w i s t h e s p a c e t h e r e M r

Nhleko, it looks like you’re struggling with the space, are
Page 71 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
you comfortable, are you able to open that file?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I ’ l l t r y m y l e v e l b e s t C h a i r, o t h e r w i s e

we’ll land up with the situation where we’ll have to buy new
furniture and I don’t think this Com mission can afford to do
so, so I’ll try my level best.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t , t h a n k y o u .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Perhaps, Mr Chair if I can be of some

assistance to Mr Nhleko perhaps, because I believe that
his microphone can adjust, so perhaps if he were to raise it
10

up in the manner that I’m demonstrating, so that he can put
his

file

underneath

the

microphone.

Mr

Nhleko

the

document that you’ve just marked Exhibit Y8(A) is, if you
look at the tramlines on page five, you’ll see between
there,

it

says

Phiwayinkosi

the

sworn

Thamsanqa

statement

Nhleko,

do

by
I

Nkosinathi

pronounce

it

c o r r e c t l y.
MR

NHLEKO:

No,

you’re

not,

it’s

Nkosinathi

Phinwayinkosi tongue sound.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

Ye s , b u t I t h i n k y o u ’ v e g i v e n i t y o u r b e s t

shot.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thanks, if you’ll turn with me to page

109 on that same…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Well on a lighter note Mr Nhleko, I see

that your first two names have got nothing to do with
Page 72 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Nkosi.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, [laughter].

ADV HULLEY SC:

Page 109 you’ll see that just below

three, paragraph 312 is a signature, is that your signature
sir?
MR NHLEKO:

I have a – we said we are using the red

numbers at the top, isn’t it?
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

MR NHLEKO:

That’s correct, right at the top.

So, it’s Y8 NPN 0009, is that what we’re

using?
ADV HULLEY SC:

In this instance we’re referring to page

1 0 9 t o p r i g h t - h a n d c o r n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

What page did you say Mr Hulley?

A D V H U L L E Y S C : 1 0 9 M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

That’s correct.

I don’t see it here.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

1-0-9?

Ja you use the top red number at the

c o r n e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h e 0 9 , y e s , I s e e t h a t j a .

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
Have you got the page?

Ye s , i t ’ s a c t u a l l y p a g e f i v e o f – i s t h a t w h a t

it is?
Page 73 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u r o r i g i n a l p a g i n a t i o n s y s t e m , w a s

15 our is 109.
MR NHLEKO:

And then I’m somewhere confused in this,

because I don’t seem to be seeing it here…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hulley…
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y, t h i s i s r i g h t h e r e , e x c e l l e n t , t h a n k s

for your patience Chairperson, I’m now following, thank you
v e r y m u c h , i n d e e d t h a t ’ s m y s i g n a t u r e s i r.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

Thanks – thank you very much and this

is the statement that you’ve given – the affidavit that
you’ve prepared in response to the allegations that were
made by Mr McBride is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Right.

ADV HULLEY SC:

I want to take you through to deal with

y o u r b a c k g r o u n d w h i c h a p p e a r s o n p a g e n i n e , M r C h a i r,
but if I understand your affidavit…[intervenes].
MR NHLEKO:

Now I’m getting educated yes, I am on

page nine ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

If I understand your affidavit correctly

and just to place it in context, I understand you to be
saying that this particular affidavit is not information that
you

have

first-hand

knowledge

of

e n t i r e l y,

there

are

aspects that you do have first-hand knowledge of and there
are

certain

aspects

that

you

don’t

have

knowledge of, do I understand that correctly?
Page 74 of 231

first-hand

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And if I can ask that you would give an

indication when we’re dealing with a particular topic where
a particular aspect is within your knowledge, tell us what
that – that you have personal knowledge of it and if you
can

also

indicate

when

something

is

not

within

your

knowledge, you can tell us where it is that you got that
information from but that’s just by way of a general prec u r s o r.
10

Now in relation to – on page nine section A, you

d e a l w i t h t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y,
you’re setting out over there your history within the ANC
and

your

history

leading

to

your

qualifications

and,

u l t i m a t e l y, y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t b u t I t h i n k I ’ d l i k e t o l e a v e i t
to you, just to take us through that and to explain to the
Chairperson what your background is.
CHAIRPERSON:

Obviously only with only that which you

feel is important to deal with because it is a lengthy
background but if you think – those parts that you think are
important
20

to

articulate,

you

don’t

have

to

go

through

everything on the background part.
MR NHLEKO:

I’ll try Chairperson and sum it up for you, I

t h i n k , i n d e e d , i t ’s s u m m a r i s e d y e s b u t i t ’ s s t i l l l o n g i n m y
statement.

I think it has been established that I’m the

former Minister of Police and essentially Minister of Public
Works at a later point until the latest Cabinet reshuffle by
Page 75 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
President Cyril Ramaphosa in 2018.

I hold a Master of

Science Degree in leadership and change management
with Leeds Metropolitan University in the United Kingdom
as well as a National Diploma in Labour Law at an Honours
Degree

level

with

the

Global

Institute

of

Management

Te c h n o l o g i e s a n d I c a n a l s o c o n f i r m t h a t I , i n d e e d , I a m a
member of the African National Congress in good standing
and that I am in no gainful employment as we speak in my
term of Parliament and that with the fifth Parliament having
10

the National elections of 8 May 2019.
N o w, m y h i s t o r y c u t s a c r o s s , a n d i n d e e d , w h a t I
avoided in this particular statement is to talk about, you
k n o w, m y s t u d e n t a n d y o u t h s o c i a l a c t i v i t i e s a n d i s s u e s
and so on but at a professional level, my history cuts
across my early days in the trade union movement.

In

1 9 8 7 I j o i n e d t h e , t h e n Tr a n s p o r t a n d G e n e r a l W o r k e r s
U n i o n , i n t o d a y ’ s t e r m s i t ’ s n o w k n o w n a s S ATAW U , I w a s
t h e b r a n c h s e c r e t a r y, e v e n t u a l l y – n o I w a s t h e b r a n c h
o r g a n i s e r, t h a t ’ s h o w I s t a r t e d o f f a n d l a t e r o n I b e c a m e
20

t h e b r a n c h s e c r e t a r y. S o , e s s e n t i a l l y, I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r
t h e a d m i n i s t r a t i v e a c t i v i t i e s o f t h e Tr a d e U n i o n w i t h i n t h e
designated – your graphical scope. At the time, I think the
branch was called Northern Natal, so that’s where I started
off.

Three

years

l a t e r,

I

then

became

the

general

s e c r e t a r y, I w a s e l e c t e d g e n e r a l s e c r e t a r y o f t h e s a m e
Page 76 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
u n i o n , Tr a n s p o r t a n d G e n e r a l W o r k e r s U n i o n w h i c h m e a n t
a

g r e a t e r,

sort

administrative

of,

level

National
as

well

responsibility
as

issues

and
of

an

policy

development and enforcement of such policies and the
constitution of the said union and so on.
That was – I played that particular role up until, of
course

we’re

approaching

the

democratic

elections

of

1994, so I stepped down from being the general secretary
i n 1 9 9 3 i n S e p t e m b e r, I t h i n k b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o g o b a c k
10

to KZN where I come from.

S o , I - 3 0 S e p t e m b e r C O S AT U

C o n g r e s s , i t w a s a s p e c i a l c o n g r e s s b a s i c a l l y, I w a s t h e n
t h e n o m i n a t e d , y o u k n o w, e l e c t e d b u t I ’ m u s i n g t h i s t e r m
quite qualifying because I think it was a nomination for the
ANC

candidature

amongst

the

of

Parliament

twenty

C O S AT U C o n g r e s s .

so

for

delegates

1994.

So,

nominated

I

was

for

that

N o w, f r o m t h a t p o i n t o n w a r d s , g i v e n

that I had already stepped down from the general secretary
p o s i t i o n o f t h e Tr a n s p o r t a n d G e n e r a l W o r k e r s U n i o n , I
t h e n w a s a s s i g n e d i n K Z N t o w o r k b r i e f l y o n a C O S AT U
20

project which was there for some few months, just before
the 1999 elections, it was more to do with the overall
election

1994,

yes,

specifically

C O S AT U

was,

broadly

s p e a k i n g f o r t h e A N C a n d I a l s o h a d t o , y o u k n o w, a m o n g s t
the

functions

question

of

that

I

had

integrated

to

that

undertake

there

s u b s e q u e n t l y,

Page 77 of 231

was

you

the

k n o w,

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
eventually to the ANC election machinery in the province of
Kwa-Zulu Natal in 1994.
In that brief role I was responsible for your ongoing,
y o u k n o w, s e c t o r a n a l y s i s a n d t h e c r i t i c a l , s o r t o f , P o l i t i c a l
environment at the time, included in that was the question
o f , y o u k n o w, n e g o t i a t i n g f o r p e a c e , p r e c i s e l y b e c a u s e K Z N
at that time was engulfed by a terrible period of violence
that occurred amongst our people there and so on.

Then

p o s t t h a t I , y o u k n o w, e l e c t i o n s c a m e a n d I w a s t h e n s e n t
10

to Parliament by the ANC in 1994 when I started off there, I
was assigned for the ANC study group on transport which,
e s s e n t i a l l y, i n i t s b r o a d e r i n s t i t u t i o n a l c o n t e x t t h e n w a s t h e
Portfolio Committee on the – on transport.
largely

responsible

for

the

There, I was,

coordinating,

sort

of,

coordination function of that very same study group in
dealing with the critical policy issues of transport.

I think

that’s the period between 1994 to 1999.
ADV HULLEY SC:
Public
20

In 1999 you were – you Chaired the

Service

Administration

Portfolio

Committee…[intervenes].
MR NHLEKO:

Public Service and Administration Portfolio

Committee, with responsibilities of drawing up the annual
programmes and plans and essentially directing the work
programmes

of

the

Portfolio

Committee

and

the

presentation of such reports before Parliament and other
Page 78 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
structures of course but at the centre of that Portfolio
function

was

Ministers,

liaising

between

departments,

stakeholders

institutions

in

such

as

support

of

d e m o c r a c y, c i v i l s o c i e t y a n d o t h e r s . S o , t h a t e s s e n t i a l l y,
was the function there.
In 2001 I was appointed Chairperson of the ANC
Parliamentary caucus, function which essentially placed
myself

as

a

point

of

contact

between

ANC

MP’s

the

leadership of the organisation being the ANC and of course
10

enabling discussion on the work of study groups.

So the

ANC which play of Portfolio Committee work and have substructures
members

of
of

the

National

Parliament

to

caucus,

discuss

lasting

and

agree

enabling
on

their

approach pertaining to all matters on the Parliamentary
agenda and that – in that function as the Chair of the ANC
Parliamentary caucus I also represented the ANC caucus at
the ANC National Executive Committee meetings.
In 2002, honourable Chair I was appointed Chief
Whip for the ANC which responsibility was Political and
20

Resource Management of the ANC in Parliament and it’s
also a function that required coordination between relevant
structures of Parliament, Public Ministers, and ANC Head
Quarters and of course, critical in that function was the
liaising

function

between

political

parties,

Presiding

Officers and the Program ming Committee of Parliament.
Page 79 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

If I could be of some assistance Mr

Nhleko and if I – and I don’t mean to hurry you along.
MR NHLEKO:

Right.

ADV HULLEY SC:

What I would like is, if you could

highlight the aspects that you believe are important that
the Chairperson has to have regard to in relation to your
background.

Yo u o b v i o u s l y – m o s t o f t h i s i s a l r e a d y s e t -

out in your affidavit but if you’d like to highlight certain
portions, I will appreciate that.
10

MR NHLEKO:

I – no I’ll try and do that, the one area, of

course, was my function as the Regional Commissioner of
the Correctional Services in KZN, coordination of security
programmes as constitutionally mandated and so forth.
The

–

and

the

question

of

promoting

community

involvement and awareness in correctional matters was
a m o n g s t t h o s e b u t I w a s , e s s e n t i a l l y, a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e f o r
all accounting issues at Provincial level but response – the
reporting

to

–

at

a

National

level

C o m m i s s i o n e r a s t h e A c c o u n t i n g O f f i c e r.
20

for

Umhlati

Municipality

as

Deputy

to

the

National

In 2008 I worked

Municipal

Manager

there but most of the time I functioned as the Acting
Municipal
occurred

M a n a g e r,
there

in

given
that

r e s p o n s i b i l i t y,

I

was

implementation

your

the

variety

m u n i c i p a l i t y.
then

IDP’s,

of

In

reasons

that

responsible

maintaining

Page 80 of 231

I

had
for

that
the
the

Organisational

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Management

System,

activities

and

national

strategic

management

coordinating

Human

relationships,

risk

management,

economy

development

of

local

Resource

initiatives as well as public relations and communication.
I do also need to mention that in the period set out
in my affidavit, in 2002 to 2005 I served as a member of
the Judicial Services Commission, the structure primarily
concerned with courts and administration of justice as well
as the appointment of Judges.
10

I also served, within the

said period, 2002 to 2005 served as a Deputy Chairperson
o f t h e A N C P o l i t i c a l C o m m i t t e e i n P a r l i a m e n t w h e r e l a r g e l y,
that’s a structure responsible for political direction of the
work of the ANC in Parliament.
I t h e n l e f t , U m h l a t h u z e M u n i c i p a l i t y, I t h i n k , a t t h e
beginning of 2010 because I was asked by the Minister –
then

Minister of Public Service

and Administration, Mr

Baloyi that I needed to come in and assist him in the
setting

up

Department
20

of
of

the

Special

Public

Anti-Corruption

Service

and

Unit

in

the

Administration.

I

performed in this particular function for – for some few
months, I think it must have been four months and the work
there was still at a conceptual stage.

The intention was

that the entity itself needed to form out as a Government
entity

e v e n t u a l l y,

the

Anti-Corruption

Unit

Department of Public Service and Administration.
Page 81 of 231

in

the
So, I

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
could

not

see

that

kind

of

work

to

fruition

precisely

because I then moved on, after being hired as Director
General

of

functioned

the
in

Department

that

elections of 2014.

of

Labour

particular position

up

in

2 0 11

until

and

the

I

May

Then I was appointed in May 2014 as

Minister of Police. I think the rest then is…[intervenes].
ADV HULLEY SC:
I

understand

Ve r y w e l l a n d t h a t w a s b e c a u s e t h e – i f

correctly

from

your

affidavit,

you

–

the

general elections had just been held and a new Cabinet
10

was appointed by the then, President Mr Jacob Zuma?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , c o r r e c t l y s o .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now if we can just move forward,

paragraph 40 you set-out that there was a Cabinet reshuffle that took place in 2017 and you assumed a new role
as the Minister of Public Works.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Okay and you presently not – you’re

not a Minister in any portfolio, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:
20

No, no I’m not, I’m not gainfully employed

a s t h e y s a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:
Cabinet

reshuffle

Ye s , a n d t h a t w a s a s a r e s u l t o f a
by

the

present

President,

Mr

Cyril

Ramaphosa?
MR NHLEKO:

That’s correct.

ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w, t h e – i f w e c a n m o v e f o r w a r d t o
Page 82 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
page 18 of that bundle you deal there with the complaint
that

had

Mbongwa.

been

raised

by

Mr

McBride

relating

to

Mr

N o w, i s t h e r e – a n d o b v i o u s l y v e r y b r i e f l y

you’ve heard some of the discussion that has taken place
between myself and the Chairperson regarding the attitude
of the evidence leaders towards the complaint relating to
Mr Mbangwa, is there anything, obviously you’ve been
accused of employing a fraudster – a person who is a
f o r e i g n e r, i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u ’ d l i k e t o s a y, a s f a r a s
10

that is concerned before we move on to the more weightier
matters, as it were?
MR NHLEKO:

No, indeed I do need to say something

about that.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

There are two issues that have been raised

there, both before this Commission and also at a public
level.

The first one is that Mr Leon Abednego Mbangwa

whom I hired as Chief of…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Mr Nhleko, I don’t know if you could

raise your voice a little bit.
MR NHLEKO:

O h o k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w, y o u h a v e a d e e p v o i c e , I t h i n k , a n d

sometimes I can hear you quite clearly but sometimes I
can’t, so maybe you can raise it a bit.
MR NHLEKO:

N o , m y a p o l o g i e s C h a i r.
Page 83 of 231

There are two

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
issues that were raised with regards to Mr Mbangwa’s
employment.

The first one is that he’s a fraudster and the

o t h e r o n e t h a t h e ’ s a f o r e i g n e r.

N o w, j u s t a l i t t l e b i t o f

background is that, how I linked up with Mr Mbangwa was
that I actually found him as part of the recruitment exercise
and hunting around that I conducted, which then located
him being Kwa-Zulu Natal Legislature.

T h i s i s a f t e r, o f

course, I had Ms Kathy Hendriks there who was my Chief
of Staff who then moved over to the South African Police
10

Service for another function.
Legislature

was

a

Senior

So, Mr Mbangwa, in KZN

M a n a g e r,

basically

a

Chief

Director kind of position that he held there within the
Legislature.

On the qualification front, Mr Mbangwa holds

a Masters Degree in Business Administration with Regent
Business

School,

a

Diploma

in

Human

Resource

Management, a Diploma in Industrial Marketing with Unisa,
a Diploma in Public Relations Practice with the Public
R e l a t i o n s I n s t i t u t e o f S o u t h A f r i c a , a Te a c h e r s D i p l o m a
with the University of Zimbabwe, Programme and Project
20

Management
University

with

and

the

currently

American
he’s

Institute

awaiting

Graduate

results

of

his

dissertation for his Masters in Public and Development
M a n a g e m e n t w i t h W I T S U n i v e r s i t y.

N o w, t h e s e d o c u m e n t s ,

I’ve also provided them in a separate Annexure to this
Commission.
Page 84 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Now on the work experience, Mr Mbangwa has been
with the South African Public Service for no less than 20
years, in different functions but he started teaching in
Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana and South Africa between
1986 and 1995 and he headed communications for the
Mpumalanga Provincial Government, 1995 to 1998 and he
was a Director of the Independent Electoral Commission of
South Africa from 1999 to 2001 and also a Director of the
Department
10

of

Justice,

2001

to

2002

and

the

Chief

D i r e c t o r, K Z N D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h 2 0 0 5 t o 2 0 1 0 a n d o f
course where I got his was that he was then – by then the
S e n i o r M a n a g e r o f K w a - Z u l u N a t a l L e g i s l a t u r e 2 0 11 t o
2015, 2015 that’s the time he was then transferred to the
Ministry of Police.
Now as I have said he has been with the South
African Public Service for over 20 years, he was awarded a
Merit Certificate by the Mpumalanga Provincial Government
and as Director for IEC together with Judge Kriegler and
they

20

represented

South

Africa

in

East

Moore

as

an

Electoral Officer of the United Nations and that also, the
appreciation note by the United Nations is also a document
that we have just handed in. He was also in the Minister of
Justice Office dealing with the implem entation of the eJustice Programme.
Now given this history and of course the level of
Page 85 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
qualification,

I

was

satisfied

that

he

was

the

correct

candidate for the Chief of Staff position in m y office and I
a c c o r d i n g l y a r r a n g e d f o r t h e l a t e r a l t r a n s f e r.

N o w, I m u s t

t h e n p o i n t o u t t o t h e h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, m e m b e r s o f t h e
Commission that

- just basically two things, the issue

being raised about his criminal record and so on, those are
issues

that,

if

this

was

a

fresh

and

direct

sort

of

employment, would have been declared – or perhaps would
have looked at establishing some veracity about this man
10

a n d s o o n b u t a t r a n s f e r, l a t e r a l t r a n s f e r, a l r e a d y t h a t
person is in the system, within Government.

So, you

wouldn’t start the exercise all over again and so on.
So at the time when I hired him, I wasn’t aware
about the criminal office that he allegedly committed, which
was, by the way it’s about an ID document and it’s the first
time I come across somebody who was arrested, sentenced
– and served a sentence for an identity fraud.
was just one of those things but nevertheless.

So, I – it
N o w, s o o n

one occasion I’m participating in a – there’s a radio station
20

which is quite popular here in – around Johannesburg, I
think, called Power FM.

So, I went in there, it was more to

do with the Police Portfolio and many other things that I
had to deal with, the anchor then asked this question about
Mr Mbangwa’s employment and citizenship and of course I
had no direct answers at the time.
Page 86 of 231

So, except undertaking

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
that I was going to follow through on these issues and try
a n d e s t a b l i s h w h a t , a c t u a l l y h a p p e n e d . N o w, i n d e e d , I s a w
then after that, that sure, then confronted Mr Mbangwa, I
asked

him

these

happened?
issue,
F i r s t l y,

in

questions,

are

you

a

f r a u d s t e r,

what

Then he provided the brief background to that
fact

that

an

extensive

indeed

he

was

background

to

that

sentenced

to

36

issue.
months

imprisonment of which he served 18 months and released
from prison in 2004 and at which point, the point being that
10

he’s releases, he was given a letter to apply for citizenship
by decent. Note that he was not deported and Mr Mbangwa
informed me that in all positions of employment, in other
words pre the 2015 transfer to my office he had – he
always declared his criminal record and completed his
Z204 form for security clearance, and upon releasing 2004
he took steps to rectify his citizenship and documents in
accordance

with

Section

3

sub-section1

of

the

South

African Citizenship Act 88 of 1995.
Now it has got – this point has got to be noted, to
20

date,

the

Department

of

Home

Affairs

has

not

forthcoming in dealing with this particular issue.
result

of

which

the

Pietermaritzburg

High

been
As a

Court

was

approached to give force to this particular attempt.

The

Pietermaritzburg High Court, case number 6840/09 ordered
that and ordered that evidence be held on 16, 17, 18 March
Page 87 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
2 0 11 o n d e t e r m i n i n g d e s c e n d a n c y f o r M r M b a n g w a .
March

2 0 11

a

settlement

agreement

was

On 17

entered

into

before the Pietermaritzburg High Court for a deoxy nucleic
acid test between Mr Mbangwa and a surviving sibling in
South Africa and such a DNA test results were in Mr
M b a n g w a ’ s f a v o u r, t h a t d o c u m e n t I ’ v e a l s o p r o v i d e d i t f o r
this Commission.

In other words, the actual DNA, he did

test results and so on.

To d a y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e

A f f a i r s h a s c o n t i n u o u s l y r e n e g e d f r o m t h i s C o u r t O r d e r.
10

N o w I d o n e e d t o r a i s e t w o t h i n g s h e r e , C h a i r, a b o u t
this thing.

For me this is a very worrying tendency for

some State Departments not to comply with Court Orders.
Now I’m saying this thing because, indeed, the advantage
that I have got is that I’ve been an administrator so I’ve
seen

the

administrative

participated in that.

aspect

of

the

State,

so

I’ve

So, I do have particular experiences

when it comes to such issues but also, I have an extensive
sort of experience around issues of Political Management,
I’ve also seen these particular issues.
20

N o w, f o r m e t h i s i s

a political problem, precisely because if you – if we allow a
situation such as this for an example our efforts on the
creation of a developmental State on the basis of the rule
of law gets compromised.

So, I’m throwing this point

because I think this point is quite fundamental, even with
regards to this issue but also far beyond this particular
Page 88 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
issue and so on.
S e c o n d l y, t h e s e c o n d p o i n t I w a n t t o r a i s e i s t h a t , i n
a n y c a s e i t i s a b s u r d a n d l u n a c y, a t b e s t f o r a n y o n e t o
suggest that an African person is a foreigner on the African
soil. Africans by birth, Chairperson, in this continent of
ours, are understood to be of a tree of origin, this very
s a m e l a n d o f o u r f o r e b e a r e r s . A t i s s u e h e r e , C h a i r, i s w h a t
the European powers did in 1884 when they met at a billing
conference wherein, they said divide, plunder rape, maim,
10

rape and dehumanise the African person.

All of these

atrocities were committed on the basis, of nothing else,
except that they considered themselves as being White
s u p e r i o r h u m a n b e i n g s a n d t h a t ’ s t h e m a t t e r.
I’m

raising

this

point

because,

even

in

this

Commission reference is being made to a fellow African
person as a foreigner and that can’t be correct and I think
Princess Mugure Ndarathimirwo was correct when, in a
song, with tears on her face articulated that those who
worship
20

foreign

Gods

are

swallowed

by

them.

The

greatness of our land lies in the glory of our children as we
fight our battles, we create …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

But Mr Nhleko, how far can you take that

because ...[intervenes]
MR NHLEKO:

I am done with it.

CHAIRPERSON:

...because

you

Page 89 of 231

were

a

member

of

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Parliament.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

An

act

of

Parliament

recognises

foreigners as including Africans, you were a member of
Parliament, under democracy that Parliament – the majority
of which are members from your political party recognises
by way of a law that an African who is from Zimbabwe, an
African who is from Kenya, Swaziland is a foreigner in
South Africa.
10

MR NHLEKO:

I d o n ’ t k n o w, p e r h a p s y o u a r e p r o b a b l y w e l l

read with regards to that piece of legislature but for me,
Chair…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I’m talking about, I mean, you were

Minister of Police and when it comes to people who are
regarded as foreigners, as I understand the position, there
i s n o d i s t i n c t i o n b e i n g m a d e t o s a y, i f y o u a r e a – i f y o u
are from Zimbabwe or from within the continent you are not
a foreigner in South Africa.
MR NHLEKO:
20

reference

it’s

I t h i n k , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, t h e c o r r e c t
an

illegal

immigrant

or

another term that is being utilised.

I

think

there

is

I’m not too sure

whether that piece of legislation, for instance, is termed in
that

kind

of

manner

in

terms

of

referring

to Africans

being… [Chair and witness speaking together] but I’m not
sure…[intervenes].
Page 90 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

It might have, since then, been amended

and m aybe different terminologies…[intervenes].
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I t h i n k t h e p r o p e r r e f e r e n c e i s t h a t , i f

you do not have – you are not properly documented, you
are then…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

An immigrant.

NHLEKO:

An

immigrant,

an

illegal

immigrant

or…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:

Yo u a r e a n i l l e g a l i m m i g r a n t .
Ye s , s o m e t h i n g t o t h a t e f f e c t I t h i n k t h a t ’ s

the…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Would you not have the sam e concerns

if …[intervenes].
MR NHLEKO:
definition

as

That’s – conceptually that’s a different
opposed

to

saying

to

an African

person,

f o r e i g n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.
On the African side you can’t say that, in

a n y c a s e , C h a i r, e v e n i f w h a t y o u j u s t s p o k e t o i s c o r r e c t ,
20

that perhaps, maybe the law says that I still maintain my
position it’s incorrect to have such a reference regardless
o f w h a t t h e l a w b o o k s s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o t h a t ’ s f i n e , I d o n ’ t w a n t u s t o
spend too much time on it but you have made the point
that, for you there’s a distinction between a foreigner and
Page 91 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
an immigrant.
MR NHLEKO:

E x a c t l y.

CHAIRPERSON:

And if the word, immigrant, is used

that’s acceptable, yes.
MR NHLEKO:

S o I ’ v e c l a r i f i e d t h i s i s s u e , y o u k n o w, u p t o

a point where there were Court Orders for an example and
the status of Mr Mbangwa – for me then, all of this,
c l a r i f i e d w h y, p e r h a p s , e v e n t h e o t h e r S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t
hired him, this is now my deduction from this but as I had
10

q u a l i f i e d i t e a r l i e r o n - t h a t l o o k t h e r e w a s n o w a y, g i v e n
the lateral transfer that I would know about the criminal
record that he has got and his nationality kind of status
and so on, there was no – the original file, then is with the
Department that – or State institution that he used to work
f o r.

So, when you do a lateral transfer you take that right

over and that’s basically it.
CHAIRPERSON:

So, your point – the points you make

about Mr Mbangwa is, one, you had a vacancy you wanted
to fill.
20

MR NHLEKO:
ADV

HULLEY

Ye s .
SC:

Tw o ,

he

was

–

he

had

the

qualifications and the knowledge and experience that was
required for that position.
MR NHLEKO:

Correct.

COMMISSIONER:

Three, to the extent that he had a
Page 92 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
criminal record, one that you didn’t know and two you
couldn’t

know

because

he

was

coming

from

another

department he was not being employed as a new person in
the Public Service.
MR NHLEKO:

Correctly so.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV HULLEY SC:

Just to – if I might just to complete

t h a t , i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, M r M b a n g w a t o o k t h e m a t t e r
to Court and you say that the Departm ent of Hom e Affairs
10

has reneged upon the Court Order as things stand, to the
best of your knowledge, Mr Mbangwa – the Court has not
yet declared Mr Mbangwa to be a South African Citizen by
decent?
MR NHLEKO:
correctly

No, I’m not sure whether I’m getting you

there.

descendancy of

The

High

Court

established

Mr Mbangwa through the

the

DNA test, it

established that.
ADV HULLEY SC:

If I understand your – and correct me if

I’m wrong, if I understand your narration, what you’re
20

saying is that there was a settlement agreement in terms of
which it was agreed that he would go for DNA testing in
order to establish whether he was a South African citizen
by decent, well presumably whether he was related to a
person who was a South African citizen and you’re saying
t h a t t h e t e s t c a m e o u t i n h i s f a v o u r.
Page 93 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

But the Department has reneged on the

agreement, in other words, the Department either had to
implement – having come up with an agreement it had to
implement it and the Department had to make him a citizen
by decent, alternatively he had to go back to Court to get a
Court Order declaring that he is a South African citizen by
decent?
MR NHLEKO:
10

No, it’s not what I’m saying, it’s an order of

Court.
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e p u t i t t h i s w a y, o f c o u r s e y o u

m a y o r m a y n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e p i c t u r e c o m p l e t e l y, y o u c a n
nod, you – but what I understand from your affidavit,
whatever issue there was between Mr Mbangwa and the
Department of Home Affairs with regard to his status in the
c o u n t r y, t h a t w a s t a k e n t o C o u r t .
MR NHLEKO:

Right.

CHAIRPERSON:

And a process was agreed between Mr

Mbangwa and the Department of Home Affairs in term s of
20

which

his

descendancy

was

established.

As

you

understand the position the Court made an order and in
terms

of

the

o r d e r,

was

the

Home Affairs

Department

supposed to issue him with the citizenship documents or
was it required to decide on his citizenship application?
What is your understanding of what…[intervenes]?
Page 94 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR

NHLEKO:

My

understanding

is

that

they

were

supposed to issue him with…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

With a citizenship.

A citizenship.

CHAIRPERSON:

A citizenship yes, and the point you

make is that, as far as you understand, up to now the
D e p a r t m e n t h a s n o t c o m p l i e d w i t h t h a t C o u r t O r d e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:

But you can’t take it beyond that.

Of course.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y, t h a n k y o u , a l r i g h t .

Mr Hulley

we are at seven minutes past one.
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

Perhaps

we

should

take

the

a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja

let’s

take

the

adjournment,

lunch

adjournment, and we are going to resume at ten past two.
We adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

Th a n k y o u . M r …
T h e – f r o m t i m e t o t i m e M r C h a i r i f yo u

w o u l d p e r h a p s f o r g i v e m e I m i g h t j u st l e a n b a c k a g a i n st t h e
t h i n g f o r m y l o w e r b a c k I s u ff e r w i t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh is that so.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : B a c k p a i n y e s.
Page 95 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l i f y o u h a v e a n a i l m e n t l i k e t h a t I d o

n o t w a n t i t t o b e m a d e w o r se b e c a u s e …
ADV HULLEY SC:

No, no I will continue until it becomes a

problem and then I will mention it to you.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b u t i f y o u – y o u w i s h t o si t b e c a u s e

o f t h a t si t u a t i o n I w o u l d u n d e r st a n d .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

M r C h a i r i f I m i g h t j u st i n d i c a t e I h a v e

h a d t h e o p p o rt u n i t y d u ri n g t h e a d j o u r n m e n t j u st i n d i c a t e w h o
– w h a t t h e e xh i b i t n u m b e r s a r e b e c a u s e i t m a y c a u se a
p r o b l e m i f l a t e r o n i f w e d o n o t h a ve t h e e x h i b i t s i n t h e i r
s e q u e n t i a l o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So item 1 which is Mr Nhleko – it says

h e r e M r N h l e ko ’s R u l e 3 . 4 A p p l i c a t i o n o f c o u r s e i t m u st b e
M r N h l e ko ’s a ff i d a vi t – h i s s w o r n st a t e m e n t . S o i t e m – s o i f
y o u l o o k a t t h e – t h e i n d e x.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t m e t o l o o k a t t h e i n d e x ?
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t i s ri g h t a n d t h e n w h e n w e g o t h e r e

a t a l a t e r st a g e t o a p a rt i c u l a r d o c u m e n t , I w i l l t h e n a s k y o u
M r C h a i r w i t h y o u r l e a v e t o m a r k t h a t p a rt i c u l a r d o c u m e n t
w i t h a p a rt i c u l a r n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n o n e s e c.

Ja the main index. Ja.
Page 96 of 231

Hang on one second.

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC: So – so you will see there that the item 1
is

–

it

says

Application.

the

–

Mr

N k o si n a t h i

N h l e k o ’s

Rule

3.4

N o w t h e a ff i d a vi t i t s e l f w i l l b e t h e E x h i b i t Y 8 A .

I t i s – b e c a u s e t h e n o t i c e o f m o t i o n d o e s n o t f o r m p a rt o f
that. But that item 1 will be Exhibit Y8A
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

E x h i b i t – i t e m 3 o n t h e – o n t h a t l i st

w h i c h i s – i t i s M r S a n d i l e J u l y’s re p l y t o R o b e rt M c B ri d e t h a t
will be Y8B.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s – l e t u s st a rt f r o m i t e m 1 . Yo u
want us to say to – what do you want us to do?
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o i f y o u c a n i n y o u r – j u st t o t h e l e f t o f

i t i n m a n u s c ri p t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s m a r k t h a t a s Y 8 A t h a t
will be Exhibit Y8A.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m – j u st s w i t c h o n y o u r m i c ro p h o n e i f

y o u a r e a b l e t o s w i t c h o n y o u r m i c r o p h o n e . Ja .
ADV MOKHARI SC:

I w a s s a yi n g t h a t w e ca n m a k e i t e a s y

b y j u st d e l e t i n g R u l e 3 . 4 a p p l i c a t i o n t h e n i t w i l l b e N h l e k o ’s
a ff i d a vi t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. I t h i n k t h a t i s …
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s ri g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

So – so we basically delete – cross out

Rule 3.4 application.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d p u t i n a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e n yo u w a n t u s
Page 97 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
m a y b e i n b r a c k e t t o sa y E x h i b i t .
ADV HULLEY SC: Y8A.
CHAIRPERSON: Y8A.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A l ri g h t .

A n d – a n d t h e n t h e n e xt o n e t h a t

is 2.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Then number 2 already has an exhibit

n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u st s a y E x h i b i t .
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

So that is Exhibit Y7 but that was a

h i st o ri c d o c u m e n t s o I c a n n o t i n t e rf e r e w i t h t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y ?
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

So

item

number

2

is

an

h i st o ri c

d o cu m e n t . I t h a s a l re a d y g o t a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o i t i s E x h i b i t Y 7 y o u w i l l se e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

So – so – but we can make it

cl e a r i t i s E xh i b i t Y 7 .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
20

CHAIRPERSON: So it is Y7 ne?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e n i t e m 3 M r S a n d i l e J u l y’s r e p l y t o

R o b e rt M c B ri d e h i s a ff i d a v i t t h a t w o u l d b e E xh i b i t Y 8 [ B ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. H m .
Page 98 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e n t h e n e xt o n e i t e m 4 t h a t i s a n

h i st o ri c d o c u m e n t s o i t h a s a l re a d y Y 5 . T h e n i t e m 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Y5.

Hang

on

one

s e co n d .

S o m e b o d y s h o u l d b e d o i n g t h e s a m e e x e r c i se f o r t h e w i t n e s s
b e ca u s e o t h e r w i s e w h e n w e g e t t o …
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e w i t n e s s’s f i l e . O ka y a l ri g h t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

So item 5 would read – that is the

a ff i d a vi t o f M r J u l y i n r e p l y t o M a t t h e w s S e so k o t h a t w o u l d
10

be Exhibit Y8[C].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t i s f i n e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e n t h e n e xt i t e m i s M r S e so k o ’s r e p l y

to Sandile July that is item 6 that would be Exhibit Y8[D].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e n t h e f o l l o w i n g a ff i d a vi t – i t e m w h i c h

is item 7 it already has an exhibit number that is Y6.

Th e n

the item 8 will be Y8[E], Exhibit Y8[E].
CHAIRPERSON: Item 8 is Exhibit Y8[C]?
ADV HULLEY SC: E.
20

CHAIRPERSON: No, no we have had – we have had C.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : E – t h a t i s E ch o , E f o r E c h o .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh E?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. E x h i b i t Y 8 [ E ] . O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Th e n i t e m 9 w i l l b e E x h i b i t Y 8 [ F ] f o r
Page 99 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
f o xt r o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Then Exhibit 10 I am going to break that

u p i n t o t w o i f I ca n j u st t a ke yo u – t a k e y o u t o t h a t i t e m M r
C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC: It is – explain. If you would turn with me
Mr Chair in Bundle G.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e f i r st p a rt o f t h a t i s a d o c k e t a n d i t

s a y s o ve r h e r e E x – t h e d e s cri p t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: One second – one second. What page?
ADV HULLEY SC: So it is at page 3207.
CHAIRPERSON: 3207?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So page 3207 would be one bundle of

d o cu m e n t s w h i c h i s – w h i c h a r e e xt r a ct s f r o m t h e p o l i c e
case docket.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

P r e t o ri a C e n t r a l C A S 2 4 5 4 0 5 / 2 0 1 5 a n d

that will be marked as Exhibit 8 – Y8[G].
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit Y8[G]?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e – ri g h t .
Page 100 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e n w e w i l l – i f yo u t u r n t o p a g e

3215.
CHAIRPERSON: 3215?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

That will – that page together with the

correspondence running to page 3221.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC: And that would be Exhibit Y8[H].
10

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit Y8[H].
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e n i f yo u w o u l d – t h e n e xt

d o cu m e n t w o u l d b e i t e m 11 o n y o u r …
CHAIRPERSON:

We a r e d o n e w i t h t h i s f i l e ?

Are we done

with this file?
ADV HULLEY SC:

No we are not yet done with that file Mr

C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e r e i s – t h e r e i s st i l l a f e w i t e m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : We g o b a c k t o t h e o t h e r o n e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o t h e n e xt i t e m i s p a g e 3 – s o r r y i s

3222 in the bundle that you have got but the index is item
11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st r e p e a t t h a t .
Page 101 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC: Okay let me do it a little at a time. So if
you turn with me Mr Chair to page 3222.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And if you can mark that on that page

Exhibit Y8[I].
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit Y8?
ADV HULLEY SC: [I].
CHAIRPERSON: [I].
ADV HULLEY SC: And then…
10

CHAIRPERSON:

That

is

the

Rendition

R e p o rt

by

the

Reference Group.
ADV HULLEY SC:

C o r r e ct .

N o w i f yo u t u r n t o – f o l l o w t h e

s e q u e n c e o n y o u r – o n y o u r i n d e x M r C h a i r i f yo u l o o k a t
i t e m 11 . 1 o n y o u r i n d e x.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I f y o u c a n m a r k t h a t i t e m 11 . 1 t h a t i s

y o u r E xh i b i t Y 8 [ I ] s o i t i s t h e d o c u m e n t w e f i r st l o o k e d a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 . 1 w i l l b e E x h i b i t Y 8 [ I ] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e 11 . 2 o n y o u r i n d e x.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o rr y.

What did we – what did you

s a y w e m u st m a r k i t e m 1 0 o n t h e p r e vi o u s p a g e ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Okay item 10 is going to be broken up

into two.
Page 102 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n o t h a v e t o w ri t e a n yt h i n g o n t h a t

column?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s b e c a u se i t w i l l b e d i ff i c u l t t o w ri t e i t

in the column.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV HULLEY SC:

B e c a u se t h a t c o l u m n j u st h a s o n e i t e m

which is 10.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A l ri g h t a n d t h e n 11 . 2 ?
ADV
10

HULLEY

SC:

So

11 . 2

on

your

l i st

would

be

a p p o i n t m e n t s a n d t h a t w o u l d b e i t e m – s o rr y E xh i b i t Y 8 [ J] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So if you can go to page 3241 of the

b u n d l e t h a t yo u w e r e l o o ki n g a t i n [ G ] . N o w t h a t o n t h e – o n
p a g e 3 2 4 1 i f y o u c a n w ri t e E x h i b i t Y 8 [ J] .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l 4 1 i s j u st t h e l a b e l o f w h a t c o m e s

after that is it not?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. I t i s – w e c a n t a k e t h a t a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s h o u l d w e n o t h a ve – g o t o 3 2 4 2 ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s f i n e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: And then that will be Exhibit?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : J 8 [ J] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Y 8 [ J] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h a t e x h i b i t w i l l c o n t i n u e ri g h t u p t o
Page 103 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
page 3250 so that is all – would all be one exhibit.

And

then…
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l i t i s – i t i s d i ff e r e n t l e t t e r s i s i t n o t ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e y a r e d i ff e re n t l e t t e r s b u t a l l – a l l

re l a t e d t o t h e – t h e y a r e d i ff e re n t l e t t e r s m y o n l y f e a r i s t h a t
i f w e st a rt b r e a k i n g u p i n d i vi d u a l l e t t e r s w i t h i n t h a t s e ri e s
then it may lead to – but I am quite happy to do that except
t h a t i t m a y l e a d t o p r o b l e m s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s o t h e r w i s e t h e R u l e w e a r e f o l l o w i n g

will be breached.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u se t h e y a r e se p a ra t e d o c u m e n t i s i t

not?
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e y a r e s e p a r a t e d o c u m e n t s.

They all

re l a t e h o w e ve r t o – t o t h e s a m e i s s u e w h i ch i s – s o r r y w h i c h
i s t h e a p p o i n t m e n t l e t t e r s o f t h e v a ri o u s p e o p l e t h a t s a t o n
the Reference Group.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I t h i n k yo u r – y o u r – w e l l w h y d o w e n o t
m a k e t h e m K , L , M w h a t e v e r.
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ve r y w e l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

So the next one at 3243 would be

Exhibit Y8.
ADV HULLEY SC: K
CHAIRPERSON: [L] no K
A D V H U L L E Y S C : J, K .
Page 104 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : K j a . A n d t h e n t h e n e xt o n e w i l l b e Y 8 [ L ] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e xt o n e w i l l b e E x h i b i t Y 8 [ M] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n t h e n e xt o n e w i l l b e E x h i b i t Y 8 [ N ]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e xt o n e Y 8 [ O ] . T h e n e xt o n e Y 8 [ P ] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Q – so then – the one at 3249 is Exhibit

Y8[Q].
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n e xt o n e i s E x h i b i t Y 8 [ R ] .

Q, R.

The

n e xt o n e i s Y 8 [ S ] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s 3 2 5 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t h a s t w o p a g e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h a t o n e h a s g o t t w o p a g e s.

So we

s ki p t h e p a g e – t h e s e co n d p a g e o f t h e l e t t e r a n d t h e n e xt
o n e w i l l b e E xh i b i t Y 8 [ T ] , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R , S , T.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. T h a t i s t h e o n e a t 3 2 5 3 i t h a s g o t
Page 105 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a l s o t w o p a g e s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t d o e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t a k e s c a r e o f t h o s e l e t t e r s. J a .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e n t h e n e xt b u n d l e o f d o cu m e n t s w h i c h
a r e a l l y o u r R u l e 3 . 3 N o t i c e s.

T h e re i s n o re a s o n w h y t h a t

s h o u l d h a ve a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r a n d w h i c h w o u l d t h e n t a k e u s
t h r o u g h i f I co u l d t o w h a t s h o u l d b e p a g e 3 3 4 2 in t h e
s e q u e n c e a n d t h a t w i l l b e g i v e n t h a t t h e l a st n u m b e r w a s T
this one would be U, Y8[U].
10

CHAIRPERSON: What item number?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : 3 – i t i s o n t h e l i st i t i s i t e m 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Right.
ADV HULLEY SC: So it is at page 3342.
CHAIRPERSON: So that will be Exhibit?
ADV HULLEY SC: Y8[U].
C H A I R P E R S O N : U . O k a y. A l ri g h t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e n a t t a c h e d t o t h a t – i n f a ct

separately because it is not really attached.
d o cu m e n t
20

that

we

have

re c e i v e d

from

Mr

This is a
N h l e k o ’s

re p r e s e n t a t i v e s b u t i t se e m s t o b e a – i t i s t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r
Gamanyane.

I a m n o t s u r e i f i t i s a l re a d y i n t h e b u n d l e I d o

n o t kn o w w h e r e i t i s b u t I j u st r e c e i v e d i t .

They have

o b vi o u sl y f o u n d i t so m e w h e r e a n d I a m n o t s u r e i f w e sh o u l d
give it a separate …
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l m a y b e s h o u l d y o u r j u n i o r s n o t h a v e a
Page 106 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
l o o k a t t h a t w h i l e w e c o n t i n u e a n d a t so m e st a g e t h e y c a n
t e l l y o u w h a t t h e p o si t i o n i s a n d t h e n w e c a n t a k e i t f ro m
there.
ADV HULLEY SC:

The – it does not seem that he is

t e st i f yi n g w h i c h m e a n s t h a t h e w o u l d n o t h a v e a n E x h i b i t
number to his document.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t i s i t n e e d e d f o r p u r p o s e s o f M r

N h l e k o ’s e vi d e n c e ?
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

I do not know they have asked us to put

i t i n a n d w e h a ve p u t i t i n f o r t h e i r b e n e f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC: But I would imagine that they would want
it in.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e l l l e t u s s e e w h e n w e g e t t o – t o

when somebody talks about it.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I f I – i f I ca n t h e n j u st – s o t h a t t h e l a st

item was U there are additional. Then item 15 which was the
b u n d l e t h a t h a d b e e n h a n d e d u p t o u s f o r i n cl u si o n i n t h e
re c o r d w a s a s e ri e s o f d o c u m e n t s r e l a t i n g – o r t h a t h a d b e e n
20

p r o vi d e d t o u s b y M r N h l e ko ’s re p r e s e n t a t i v e s.

A lot of the

d o cu m e n t s i n t h a t b u n d l e a r e d u p l i c a t i o n s o f t h i n g s t h a t a r e
f o u n d e l s e w h e re a n d i t w o u l d s e e m t o m e t h a t t h e p r e f e r a b l e
w a y i n w h i ch t o d e a l w i t h i t i s t o g i v e i t – t h e e n t i r e b u n d l e
its own exhibit number because if we try to break it down we
are going to find that the document already has an exhibit
Page 107 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
number elsewhere.

S o ra t h e r g i v e t h e b u n d l e a s a w h o l e a n

E x h i b i t n u m b e r s u b j e ct t o w h a t y o u h a ve t o s a y M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

And that of course would breach our other

ru l e .
ADV HULLEY SC: It would.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l y o u c o u l d h a ve a d o c u m e n t – w e

c o u l d h a ve a – w e l l h a v e t h o s e t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n g i v e n
e x h i b i t n u m b e r s i n p r e vi o u sl y u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t w o r k st r e a m
h a ve t h e y b e e n i d e n t i f i e d a s t o w h i c h o n e s t h e y a r e ?
10

They

h a ve n o t b e e n i d e n t i f i e d ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

I t i s d i ff i c u l t .

Some of the documents –

m o st o f t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t I k n o w a r e d u p l i c a t i o n s s e e m t o
re l a t e

to

a ff i d a vi t s

documents
of

either

that
Mr

have

been

M c B ri d e ,

Mr

taken

out

Sesoko

of

Kuba

the
or

a l t e r n a t i v e l y t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r S a n d i l e J u l y o n e – s o m e –
c e rt a i n t h i n g s h a v e b e e n e xt r a ct e d f ro m t h a t a n d p u t i n h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l I g u e s s w h a t w e c o u l d h a v e – w e

could have – we could give them an exhibit number for
p r e s e n t p u r p o se s.
20

ADV HULLEY SC: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

And if they happen to be identical to a

d o cu m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n g i v e n a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r i n a n o t h e r
w o r k st r e a m i t i s j u st i d e n t i c a l .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : H m . We j u st l i v e w i t h t h e c o n se q u e n c e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

It – ja I think if – I think if they are
Page 108 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
i d e n t i ca l b u t i t i s k n o w n t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n g i ve n d i ff e r e n t
exhibit

numbers

that

is

better

than

when

there

is

two

d o cu m e n t s t h a t h a v e t h e s a m e e x h i b i t n u m b e r b u t t h e y a r e
d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e t h a t m a k e s i t m o r e c o n f u si n g .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s o f co u r s e . T h a t i s p r o b l e m a t i c .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

So – so maybe let us give them

E x h i b i t n u m b e r s f o r p u rp o s e s o f M r N h l e k o ’s
A D V H U L L E Y S C : E vi d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

E vi d e n c e a n d i f – i f t h e y h a p p e n t o h a v e –

t o b e i d e n t i c a l t o o t h e r s t h a t a r e t h e r e – d i ff e r e n t e x h i b i t
n u m b e r s e l s e w h e r e a t l e a st t h e y a r e – t h e y a re t h e s a m e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

S o t h e n e xt i t e m

a n d o n t h i s l i st w o u l d b e a t p a g e 3 3 6 8 . I n f a ct , i t st a rt e d o n
3 3 6 9 t h i s f o r m s p a rt o f t h e b u n d l e t h a t w a s h a n d e d u p .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t m u st b e a n o t h e r b u n d l e n o t t h i s

one.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Sorry this is Bundle H.

Mr C h a i r t h i s i s

Bundle H.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r?
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

So from 3369 to 329 – sorry 3391 those

are all – that is all correspondence.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja what page do…
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s t h i s c a s e n o t i c e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a rt i n g o n p a g e ?
ADV HULLEY SC: 3369.
Page 109 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC: So that is a notice in terms of Rule 3.3.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t u s d e a l w i t h – o h t h a t i s j u st a

n o t i ce .
ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w t h i s w a s p a rt o f w h a t M r M o k h a ri

w a s a d d r e s si n g o n w h e n h e a s k e d t o m a k e h i s o p e n i n g
st a t e m e n t ,

he

was

a d d r e s si n g

you

on

this

bundle

of

d o cu m e n t s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

S o u n l e s s w e a re g o i n g t o m a k e t h a t a n

exhibit number?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o t h e n o t i c e h a s n o e vi d e n t i a l .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Va l u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Va l u e .

A n d t h e c o r r e sp o n d e n ce i t a l s o

d e p e n d s w h a t t h e p u r p o s e i s, i s t h a t …
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A s I u n d e r st a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

O r w a s i t si m p l y a b o u t t h e p r o c e d u r a l

i s s u e s a s t h e s e r vi c e o f n o t i c e s b e c a u se i f i t w a s a b o u t t h e
s e r v i ce o f n o t i c e s, w e s h o u l d n o t p u t t h a t – I t h i n k M r
20

M o k h a ri a g r e e s.
ADV HULLEY SC: Keep it out.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We s h o u l d n o t – j a w e s h o u l d k e e p i t o u t o f
– out of it.

I f i t re m a i n s i n t h e b u n d l e f o r co n v e n i e n c e t h a t

m i g h t b e f i n e b u t p r e f e ra b l y i t s h o u l d b e t a k e n o u t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
Page 110 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

So we – but we – we will not give them

e x h i b i t n u m b e r s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e n M r C h a i r i f w e c a n g o t o p a g e 3 3 9 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV HULLEY SC:

3 3 9 3 o f t h e sa m e b u n d l e t h a t y o u h a v e

got before you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o t h i s i s t h e c o rr e s – t h e se a r e t h e – t h e
d e g r e e c e rt i f i c a t e s a n d s o f o rt h t h a t M r N h l e ko w a s r e f e r ri n g
t o i n r e s p e ct o f M r Mb a n g w a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

What exhibit number should we give

to?
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o w e – t h e p r e vi o u s o n e w a s Y 8 [ T] s o

this one will be Y8[U].
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st sa y t h a t a g a i n p l e a s e ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th i s d o c u m e n t o n 3 3 9 3 w i l l b e Y 8 [ U ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit Y8[U]?
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n e xt o n e i s t h e c e rt i f i c a t e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o t h a t w o u l d b e V.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Y 8 – U , V.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : V.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I s t h e n e xt o n e a d i ff e r e n t d i p l o m a o r
Page 111 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
same thing?

I t l o o k s l i k e t h e s a m e a s t h e o n e w e h a v e j u st

done.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e …
CHAIRPERSON: It is the same.
ADV HULLEY SC: It is the same.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w e h a ve d u p l i c a t i o n .

Let us go to the

n e xt o n e 3 3 9 6 .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o .
CHAIRPERSON: That is Exhibit?
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : W.
CHAIRPERSON: Y8.
ADV HULLEY SC: Y8[W].
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o k a y ce rt i f i c a t e a t 3 3 9 7 .
ADV HULLEY SC: X
C H A I R P E R S O N : Y. E xh i b i t Y 8 [ Y ] ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : W – s o r r y t h i s i s – t h i s sh o u l d b e Y 8 [ X ] –
W, X .
CHAIRPERSON:

X o ka y.

O k a y t h e o n e a t 3 3 9 7 i s E xh i b i t

Y 8 [ X ] . J a . H a s i t g o t p a g e 2 o r i s t h e n e xt o n e .
20

ADV HULLEY SC: It looks like it is a two page document.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Then the one at 3399 is Exhibit Y8

what?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Z.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Z o k a y. 3 4 0 0 ?
ADV HULLEY SC: Should be Y8[AA].
Page 112 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON: 3401?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Y8[AB].

Y8 – sorry we have called it Y8

– w e e i t h e r ca l l i t Y 8 [ A B ] o r Y 8 [ A A ] – a g s o rr y [ B B ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p re vi o u s o n e w e s a i d i s w h a t A A ?
ADV HULLEY SC: AA.
CHAIRPERSON: So this would be BB.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We c a n c a l l i t B B .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja it is Exhibit Y8[BB].

And then the one

at 3403?
10

ADV HULLEY SC: CC – Y8[CC].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A n d t h e n – t h e n t h e o n e – t h e n e xt

one at 3404 is Y8[DD].
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e n e xt o n e i s Y 8 [ E E ] .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o .
CHAIRPERSON: That is at 3405. Y8[FF] is the one at 3406.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o .
CHAIRPERSON: And 3407?
ADV HULLEY SC: It would be Y8[GG].
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC: 3408 Y8[HH].
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC: 3409 is Y8[II].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : 3 4 11 i s Y 8 [ J J] .
Page 113 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC: 3412 is Y8[KK].
CHAIRPERSON: And then?
ADV HULLEY SC: 3413 is Y8[LL].
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s t w o p a g e s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e r e i s t w o p a g e s t o t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: And the settlement agreement.
ADV HULLEY SC: Is Y8[MM].
CHAIRPERSON: And that has got …
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t h a s g o t si x p a g e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n u m b e r o f p a g e s. I t e n d s a t 3 4 2 0 i s t h a t
ri g h t ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : U p u n t i l 3 4 2 0 t h a t i s co r r e ct M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 3 4 2 1 ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s Y 8 [ N N ] t h a t i s N f o r N o v e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Y8 double?
ADV HULLEY SC: NN.
CHAIRPERSON: M?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : N f o r N o v e m b e r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. I s t h a t a o n e p a g e o r …
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s a o n e p a g e d o cu m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 3 4 2 2 ?
ADV HULLEY SC: Is Y8[OO].
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC: And 3423 is Y8[PP].
Page 114 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And then after that there are some

e xt r a ct s t a k e n f r o m l e g i sl a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s a t p a g e 3 4 2 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: But let us…
ADV HULLEY SC:

I u n d e r st a n d t h a t w e d o n o t g i v e t h e m

e x h i b i t n u m b e r s a n ym o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e g i sl a t i o n i s – d o e s n o t h a v e t o b e p r o v e d
10

is it not?

S o i t i s p u t i n j u st f o r c o n ve n i e n c e .

We d o n o t

h a ve t o p u t i t a s a n e xh i b i t i s i t n o t ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

As long as we know where to find it when

w e l o o ki n g f o r i t . Ye s a r e w e d o n e ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

And then there is a document at page

3431.
CHAIRPERSON: 34?
ADV HULLEY SC: 3431.
CHAIRPERSON: 3431
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r.

That based on

m y r e a d i n g o f i t a p p e a r s t o b e a n e xt ra ct t h a t i s t a k e n f r o m
t h e 2 0 0 1 R e g u l a t i o n s P u b l i c S e r vi c e R e g u l a t i o n s b u t I a m
n o t e x a ct l y su r e w h a t i t i s b u t i t s e e m s t o b e t a k e n f ro m t h e
P u b l i c S e r vi c e R e g u l a t i o n s o f 2 0 0 1 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t h i n k R e g u l a t i o n s w e d o n o t h a ve t o
Page 115 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
put – give it an exhibit number really as long as the index
tells us where to find it.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h e n t h e n e xt i t e m w e c a n i g n o r e . S o w e
c a n i g n o r e t h a t . O u r n e xt i t e m w o u l d b e a t p a g e 3 4 3 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: 34?
ADV HULLEY SC: 34.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d t h a t w o u l d b e Y 8 [ Q Q ] I b e l i e v e i t i s.
CHAIRPERSON: Double?
10

ADV HULLEY SC: QQ.
CHAIRPERSON: Have we done OO?
ADV HULLEY SC: So OO was at page…
CHAIRPERSON: Oh we have – if we have done it it is fine.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We h a ve .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Q Q . A l r i g h t Q Q
ADV HULLEY SC: So this is QQ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I t i s – i t ru n s u n t i l 3 4 3 7 .

S o t h e n e xt

item would be at page 3439 and that would be Y8[RR].
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And that is a two page document.

And

t h e n e xt o n e w o u l d b e a t Y 8 – s o r r y a t p a g e 3 4 4 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e a b o u t t o f i n i s h t h i s e x e r ci s e ?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : W h a t I p ro p o s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Because this is something that I should not
Page 116 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
be doing.
ADV HULLEY SC:

It is going to take – it is going to take a

w h i l e . C a n I p ro p o s e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h e r e so m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a n d yo u r t e a m

should be doing?
ADV HULLEY SC:

We c a n d o – w e c a n d o t h a t s e p a r a t e l y

M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s h o u l d n o t b e d o i n g t h i s.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

I have got to the document that I wanted

t o i d e n t i f y s o a n yt h i n g b e y o n d t h i s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay let us get going.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

The – Mr Nhleko

s o r r y j u st y o u w i l l r e ca l l t h a t w e – b e f o re w e t o o k t h e
a d j o u r n m e n t , w e h a ve r e f e r r e d t o …
M R N H L E K O : Ye s S i r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A se t t l e m e n t a g re e m e n t i n r e l a t i o n t o M r

M b a n g w a ’s si t u a t i o n .

I f yo u w o u l d t u r n w i t h m e t o a b u n d l e

which presently is marked Bundle H.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d I t h i n k i f w e c a n f r o m w h a t – f ro m m y

u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e i s s u e s w e s h o u l d n o t b e d e t a i n e d t o o
long about them.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We a r e d e f i n i t e l y n o t I j u st w a n t h i m t o

c o n f i r m t h a t t h i s w a s t h e d o c u m e n t h e i s re f e rri n g t o . T h a n k
y o u M r C h a i r.
M R N H L E K O : 8 H – ye s S i r
Page 117 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f yo u c a n t u r n t o p a g e 3 4 1 5 .
MR NHLEKO:

3415.

That is the – this is Exhibit Y8[MM]

a n d t h a t i s t h e s e t t l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t y o u w e r e r e f e r ri n g t o
b e f o r e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t , i s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s c o r r e ct S i r.
ADV HULLEY SC: Insofar as the meaning of that settlement
agreement is concerned Mr Chair I am not going to debate it
w i t h t h e w i t n e s s t h e se t t l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t i s t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now I would like us to turn back to your

a ff i d a vi t w h i ch i s Y 8 [ A ] .
MR NHLEKO: Alright.
ADV

HULLEY SC:

Now

you

came

in

if

I

recall

your

t e st i m o n y c o r r e ct l y y o u c a m e t h r o u g h – y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d
a s t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e i n M a y o f 2 0 1 4 ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s c o r r e ct .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d y o u s e t a b o u t e st a b l i s h i n g w h a t y o u
re f e r t o a s a R e f e re n c e G r o u p . C o u l d y o u e xp l a i n t o u s h o w
t h a t R e f e re n c e G r o u p c a m e a b o u t ?
20

MR

NHLEKO:

No

thank

you

ve r y

much

Honourable

C h a i r p e r s o n a n d t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e c o m m i s si o n .

The –

w h e n I c a m e i n i n 2 0 1 4 t h e re w e r e a n u m b e r o f – m a t t e r s
that were also in the public domain insofar as the police
w e re c o n c e r n e d s o m e w e r e i n st i t u t i o n a l i n n a t u r e , s o m e w e r e
o f a d i ff e r e n t s o rt o f n a t u r e a n d s o o n .
Page 118 of 231

But key was that I

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
w a s n e w t o t h e p o rt f o l i o .

Now the National Development

p l a n vi si o n 2 0 1 3 m a k e s s p e ci f i c s o rt o f a re a s o f p o l i ci n g
f o c u s t h a t n e e d s t o b e l o o k e d i n t o , d r i vi n g t h e p o l i c e s e r v i ce
t o w a r d s t h e a t t a i n m e n t o f t h o s e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 3 7 : 4 6 ] t h e r e
are five of them.

Th e f i r st o n e i s t h a t t h e r e i s a n e e d t o

st re n g t h e n t h e cr i m i n a l j u st i c e s y s t e m .

Secondly that the

p o l i c e s e r vi ce i t s e l f h a s g o t t o b e p r o f e s si o n a l b o d y a n d w e
h a ve g o t t o m a k e i t p r o f e s si o n a l a s a s e r vi c e . T h e t h i r d o n e
i s t h a t t h e p o l i c e s e r v i ce h a s t o b e d e m i l i t a ri s e d t h a t i s o n e
10

vi si o n b y t h e N D P. T h e f o u rt h a r e a i s t h a t t h e r e i s a n e e d t o
build

sa f e t y

as

an

integrated

approach

and

building

c o m m u n i t y [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 3 8 : 2 9 ] i n c o m m u n i t y s a f e t y.

So I

t h i n k p o i n t 4 a n d 5 a r e i n t e rt w i n e d i n t h e – i n a s e n s e .

Now

– so I needed to familiar about what the police service was
all about and in this regard I engaged with a number of
i n st i t u t i o n s i n t e rn a l l y b u t a l so i n c l u d i n g p r o f e s s i o n a l b o d i e s
o u t si d e o f t h e – o f t h e p o l i c e se r vi c e .
w e re

a

number

of

issues

that

I n t h a t p r o c e s s t h e re

then

ca m e

out

quite

p r o m i n e n t l y. T h e r e w a s a n i s s u e f o r i n st a n ce w i t h r e g a r d s t o
20

w h a t I c a t e g o ri s e a s t h e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s M a n a g e m e n t
a r e a a n d t h a t p e rt a i n e d t o t h e i s s u e s o f – o f a – t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t s, p r o m o t i o n s a n d d i s – a n d ce rt a i n d i s ci p l i n a r y
matters that were there.
e x a m p l e s.

I w i l l a l s o j u st p r o vi d e j u s t a f e w

F o r i n st a n ce , i n m y f i r s t m e e t i n g w i t h t h e – w i t h

t h e t o p m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e o n e
Page 119 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
o f t h e g e n e r a l s st o o d u p a n d i n t r o d u c e d h i m se l f a n d s a i d , I
a m G e n e r a l s o a n d so b u t I a m si t t i n g a t h o m e I a m n o t
d o i n g a n yt h i n g .

Yo u kn o w.

And I think that was alluded to

t h e i s s u e o f r e st r u ct u ri n g t h a t h a d t a k e n p l a ce a t t h e t i m e
a n d s o f o rt h .

B u t i t w a s n o t o n l y h i m I t h i n k t h e r e w e re –

t h e r e w a s a l s o a n o t h e r o n e – I m a y w a n t t o r e vi si t t h i s ki n d
of detail.

F o r i n st a n ce G e n e r a l L e b e y a w h o w a s n o w w i t h

the – the Head of the Hawks was one of the people that we –
you know was also engaged with in relation to a specific
10

m a t t e r r e l a t i n g t o H u m a n R e s o u r c e s k i n d o f i s s u e s a n d so
on.

O n o p e r a t i o n a l i s su e s i t w a s a l so t h i s i s s u e o f t h e

R e n d i t i o n o f t h e Z i m b a b w e a n s.

T h e Z i m b a b w e a n N a t i o n a l s.

The third area that was quite prominent in the – in the – now
t h e R e n d i t i o n s o f t h e Zi m b a b w e a n N a t i o n a l s l e t m e j u st –
b r i e f l y j u st t a k e a st e p b a c k. I t i s a m a t t e r t h a t e v e n b e f o r e I
came in it was in the public domain.

I t h i n k t h e re w a s a n

e x p o s e b y t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s t h e c ri m i n a l j u st i c e cl u st e r a t
t h e t i m e a l s o e v e n i s s u e d a st a t e m e n t i n t h i s re g a r d .
A d v o c a t e M o si n g i n t h e w o r k t h a t We r k sm a n s e v e n t u a l l y
20

d i d w i t h i n , y o u k n o w, o f t h e N a t i o n a l P r o se c u t i o n A u t h o ri t y,
also does refer to a meeting of top management there being
addressed

by

C o n st i t u t i o n a l

the

then

Development

M i n i st e r

of

specifically

the
also

J u st i c e

and

about

this

p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r a n d s o o n .
So it was really a matter that was out there in the public
Page 120 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
domain.

N o w o n C r i m e a n d I n t e l l i g e n c e , I t h i n k i n m y f i r st

week or two when I was there, there were a lot of things that
c a m e o u t o f t h e S u n d a y n e w s p a p e r s p e rt a i n i n g t o C ri m e a n d
Intelligence and some of the issues that were also happening
there.
B u t o n e a re a o f m y m a j o r i n t e r e st a l s o w a s t h e q u e st i o n
o f t h e p e r p e t u a l l y s u s p e n si o n o f M r R i c h a r d M d l u l i . N o w y o u
w i l l a p p r e ci a t e C h a i r, i n t e rm s o f t h e b a c k g r o u n d t h a t I g a v e ,
you
10

k n o w,

w h i ch

is

a

background

in

trade

unions

and

i n d u st ri a l re l a t i o n s a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d so o n .
T h a t c e rt a i n l y i t i s so m e t h i n g t h a t f r o m a l a b o u r r e l a t i o n s
p o i n t o f vi e w, y o u h a v e t o b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t so m e b o d y
w h o i s si t t i n g a t h o m e a n d h e i s n o t b e i n g u t i l i s e d e ff e ct i v e l y
f o r t h e i n t e n d e d g o a l s o f w h a t t h e i n st i t u t i o n i s a l l a b o u t . S o
f o r m e t h a t w a s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

A l s o f r o m si m p l e t h e p o si t i o n o f f u rt h e r

a d m i n i st r a t o r o r m i n i st e r, yo u w o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d i f t h e r e
a r e p e o p l e w h o a re b e i n g p a i d , si t t i n g a t h o m e f o r e xt e n d e d
p e ri o d s.
20

M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y, w e s h o u l d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR NHLEKO:

We s h o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h a t .

Yo u

k n o w, i t i s e i t h e r y o u a r ri ve a t a p o si t i o n w h e r e y o u cl e a rl y
Page 121 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
k n o w w h e t h e r t h i s p e r s o n i s p a rt o f yo u r l a b o u r f o r c e o r n o t
p a rt o f y o u r l a b o u r f o r c e .

Yo u k n o w, i t i s. . . t h e r e i s n o i n

between when it comes to that.
N o w t h e f o u rt h a r e a w h i c h I f o u n d a l s o , p e r h a p s, I t h i n k
f o r m e , a m a z i n g , w a s t h a t , y o u kn o w, i n 2 0 1 4 w h e r e y o u st i l l
h a d i s s u e s o f i n t e g r a t i o n p a rt i c u l a rl y, y o u h a d t h e p e o p l e
t h a t w e r e st i l l b e i n g r e f e r r e d t o a s n o n - st a t u t o r y f o r c e s.
N o w m y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t w e h a d i n t e g r a t e d a n d
t ra n sf o rm e d a s t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e a n d w e a r e
10

st i l l c o n t i n u i n g w i t h t h a t p ro c e s s o f t ra n sf o rm a t i o n .
S o f o r m e , I t h i n k i t w a s e v e n st a rt l i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s a
s p e ci f i c p r o j e ct c a l l e d M S F ( M a n S t a t u t o r y F o r c e s) a n d s o o n
w h i c h I f o u n d q u i t e p e c u l i a r i f I m a y i t p u t i t t h a t w a y.
A n d i t d i d n o t si t w e l l w i t h m e a n d I t h o u g h t so m e t h i n g
n e e d s t o b e . . . a n d t h e r e sp e ci f i c a l l y, t h e m a j o r c o m p l a i n t
w a s a r o u n d i s s u e s o f st ru ct u r e , i s s u e s o f p r o m o t i o n a n d
perceived

salary

d i s c r e p a n ci e s

generally

s p e a ki n g ,

lack

of

and

so

progress

on.
with

And

also,

regards

to

i n t e g r a t i o n o f t h i s, t h e n o n - st a t u t o r y f o r c e s a n d s o o n .
20

T h e l a st p o i n t .

T h e re w a s a l o t o f t a l k a b o u t t h e

re v i e w a l o f t h e N a t i o n a l K e y P o i n t s A ct a n d i t w a s a l s o m a d e
w i t h t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t h e n p u b l i c p r o t e ct o r ’s r e p o rt .
A n d t h e r e w a s a n a n t i ci p a t e d re f e r r a l o f f o u r s p e ci f i c
i s s u e s f o r d e t e rm i n a t i o n b y t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e f ro m t h e
si d e o f p a rl i a m e n t w h o d e t e rm i n e d w h e t h e r i n d e e d t h o s e
Page 122 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
i s s u e s. . . t h e y s a y i t re l a t e d a n d s o o n .
So

n a t u r a l l y,

c o n cl u d e d u p o n .

these

were

the

five

areas

that

were

A n d t h i s p a rt , i t w a s. . . i t i n v o l v e d q u i t e . . .

s o m e e xt e n si ve . . . a l o t o f w o r k b e c a u s e o n e , y o u h a d t o
t ra v e l f ro m p r o vi n c e t o p ro vi n c e , b a si ca l l y, a n d e n g a g i n g
e v e n w i t h p r a ct i t i o n e r s o n t h a t l a w i n t e r m s o f h o w t h e y
perceive their work and so on.
A n d s e co n d l y, t h e o r g a n i s a t i o n s t h a t h a d a ke y i n t e re st
f o r t h e w o r k o f t h e S o u t h A f r i ca n P o l i c e S e r vi c e w h o a l so
10

m a y i n t e r a ct w i t h t h a t , b u t a l s o i n t e rn a l l y, t h e p o rt f o l i o s t h a t I
w a s r e s p o n si b l e f o r.
A n d s o a l l p o rt f o l i o s s u c h a s y o u r D P C I f o r a n e x a m p l e .
The

P ri v a t e

Security

Independent

Regulatory

A u t h o ri t y,

(P S I R A ). A l l t h o s e i n st i t u t i o n s w i t h i n t h e p o l i c e m i n i s t r y t h a t
I w a s re s p o n si b l e f o r, I h a d t o m e e t u p w i t h , g o t o a n d
engage around their work and so on.
T h e q u e st i o n w a s , a t l e a st f o r m e w a s, so h o w d o w e
a t t e n d t o t h e s e i s s u e s?

N o w. . . a n d w i t h o u t C h a i r, w h a t w e

a r e d e b a t i n g , w e kn o w t h e r e w e r e a r e a s w h e r e I c e rt a i n l y
20

n e e d e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d i t w a s d i ff i c u l t t o f i n d i n f o rm a t i o n
f ro m w i t h i n t h e i n st i t u t i o n .
B u t I a l so f e l t t h a t y o u n e e d e d t o h a v e a n o b j e ct i v e v i e w
a n d o b j e ct i ve s o r t o f i n t e r v e n t i o n o f s o rt s.

S o i t b e ca m e

i m p o rt a n t t h a t yo u n e e d p e o p l e t h a t a r e l e s s p o l l ut e d b y t h e i r
e n vi r o n m e n t , t h e i n t e n d e d e n vi r o n m e n t , y o u k n o w.
Page 123 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
I t i s t h e s a m e t h i n g o f y o u c a n n o t a s k m e t o i n v e st i g a t e
m y se l f o r c h e c k o n m y d o i n g s a n d s o o n .
make sense.

I t j u st d o e s n o t

So you need somebody who from the... who

l o o k s f r o m t h e o u t si d e i n a n d b e a b l e t o l o o k i n t o s o m e o f
t h e se t h i n g s.
A n d i t w a s i m p o rt a n t t h a t a s m i n i st e r t h e n , I n e e d e d t o
a b l e t o a rt i cu l a t e w i t h a c e rt a i n d e g r e e o f cl a ri t y o n t h e s e
i s s u e s a n d p a rt i c u l a rl y b e c a u se t h e y w e r e m a t t e r s o f p u b l i c
i n t e r e st .
10

A n d b e c a u s e t h e y we r e m a t t e r s o f p u b l i c i n t e re st . I a l s o
h a d t h e l e a d e r s h i p , s o rt o f a r o l e t o p l a y i n cl a ri f yi n g t h o s e
i s s u e s a t a p a rt i c u l a r l e v e l a n d s o o n .
N o w. . . s o I l e a d e d t h e w h o l e q u e st i o n o f w h a t h u r d l e d o
then use and what are enabling areas of... what are the
i n st r u m e n t s t h a t c a n e m p o w e r m e a s a m i n i st e r t h e n t o b e
able to make these interventions and do some thorough work
i n s o f a r a s t h e y w e re c o n c e r n e d ?
T h e f i r st i n st r u m e n t i s t h e C i vi l i a n S e c r e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e .
N o w t h a t i n st r u m e n t i n t e r m s o f S e ct i o n 3 (e ) a n d (j ) o f t h e

20

S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e A ct 1 9 9 5 st a t e s t h a t :
“ T h e C i vi l i a n S e c r e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e h a s t o p r o vi d e t h e
m i n i st e r

with

legal

s e r vi c e s

and

a d vi s e

on

c o n st i t u t i o n a l m a t t e r s. . . ”
R e m e m b e r, a s Mi n i st e r o f P o l i ce i n t e r m s o f S e ct i o n 2 0 6 ,
I t h i n k.

I t h i n k t h e l a w y e r s w i l l c o r r e ct m e .
Page 124 of 231

Yo u a r e

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
appointed

by

Cabinet

as

the

m i n i st e r

re s p o n s i b l e

for

p o l i ci n g .
A n d S e ct i o n 2 0 7 s a y s, i n t e r m s o f t h e a d m i n i st ra t i o n a n d
c o n t r o l o f t h e p o l i c e p o rt f o l i o w i t h t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e
S e r vi c e .
b a si s

of

T h a t i s w i t h t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r b u t o n t h e
the

d i r e ct i v e s,

the

m i n i st e r

is

re s p o n si b l e

for

p o l i ci n g . T h e l o n g a n d s h o rt o f i t .
B o t h . . . t w o s e ct i o n s a n d t h e c o n st i t u t i o n t a l k t o t h a t a n d
I s u s p e ct t h a t w h e n t h i s l a w w a s d ra f t e d , i t n e e d e d t o g i v e
10

a ff e ct

e x a ct l y

to

S e ct i o n

206

and

S e ct i o n

207

of

the

C o n st i t u t i o n .
N o w t h e S e ct i o n 3 ( j ) o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e
A ct

speaks

p a rt i c u l a rl y

and

s p e ci f i c a l l y

to

the

C i vi l i a n

S e c r e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e . I t s a y s t h a t e n t i t y h a s t o e v a l u a t e t h e
f o r m o f t h e s e r v i c e a n d r e p o rt t o t h e m i n i st e r t h e r e o n .
S e ct i o n 9 ( b ) o f t h e C i vi l i a n S e c re t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e t h e
2 0 11 . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o rr y, si r.
M R N H L E K O : O h , s o r ry.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

Before you continue.

T h i s p a rt o f t h e

R e f e r e n c e G r o u p , a re yo u s a yi n g t h a t R e f e r e n ce G ro u p i s
p a rt o f t h e C i vi l i a n S e c re t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e ?
w a t e r.

Are

you

s a yi n g

that

it

is

S e c r e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e ?
M R N H L E K O : N o , I a m n o t s a yi n g t h a t .
Page 125 of 231

p a rt

S o rr y, I h a ve g o t
of

the

C i vi l i a n

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
MR NHLEKO: But I am coming to that.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

Because it then... it is a build-up towards

re s p o n d i n g t o y o u r q u e st i o n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , I a m s o rr y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y, yo u h a v e b e e n o ff e r e d w a t e r ?
10

A D V H U L L E Y S C : I d o h a v e w a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh,

you

have got water?

Oh,

o k a y.

A l ri g h t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

I think it is the water that caused the

p r o b l e m i n t h e f i r s t p l a ce M r C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : I t h i n k h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t t o o k m y vo i c e a w a y. I t w a s co l d .
MR

NHLEKO:

No,

it

is

my eagerness to

ca p t u r e

the

C o m m i s si o n . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] [ l a u g h s]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
M R N H L E K O : A n d t h a t i s w h y I a m o ff e ri n g w a t e r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

We l l , I se e h e r e si st e d y o u r o ff e r

f o r w a t e r. [ l a u g h s ] O ka y, y e s. L e t u s c o n t i n u e .
M R N H L E K O : S o a m I s a t i sf yi n g y o u r. . . ?
Page 126 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s.

No, continue.

Yo u h a v e a n s w e r e d

t h e q u e st i o n .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u . . . a t t h i s st a g e , y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO:

I w i l l j u st c o n t i n u e .

Th e l e g a l i n st r u m e n t s

e m p o w e ri n g t h e m i n i st e r, yo u k n o w.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
M R N H L E K O : O f c o u r s e , m e t h e n a s a . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B a si c a l l y, p a rt o f t h e p o i n t y o u a re m a k i n g

i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . y o u h a d a n e e d f o r c e rt a i n a s si st a n c e .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u l o o k e d a t l e g i sl a t i o n .

Yo u f o u n d t h a t

l e g i sl a t i o n d i d p e rm i t yo u t o a c c e s s c e rt a i n t yp e s. . . t y p e o f
a s si st a n c e .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

And you sought to put together a group of

p e o p l e w i t h c e rt a i n k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e rt i s e i n o r d e r t o
20

a s si st y o u i n p e rf o r m i n g y o u r d u t i e s a s m i n i st e r.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, c o r r e ct C h a i r. B u t i t g o e s f u rt h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

T h a t t h a t ki n d o f a s si st a n c e , i t c a n n o t b e

located anywhere else.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 127 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
M R N H L E K O : I t h a s t o b e l o ca t e d a n d h o u s e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : . . . w i t h t h e ci vi l i a n ’s t o t a l i t y i n t h e p o l i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
MR NHLEKO:

A n d t h a t i s w h y i t i s i m p o rt a n t t o q u o t e

S e ct i o n 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ja , d o t h a t .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l ri g h t .
10

MR NHLEKO:
C i vi l i a n

No, thank you very much.

S e cr e t a ri a t

s e cr e t a ry. . .

n o w,

for

that

Police Act
is

the

2 0 11

S e cr e t a r y

S e ct i o n 9 ( b ), t h e
st a t e s
of

that

the

the

C i vi l i a n

S e c r e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , d o n o t b e t o o f a r f r o m y o u r m i c.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y. N o , s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n b ri n g i t a b i t cl o s e r i f n e c e s s a r y.

Ja.
M R N H L E K O : I w i l l t r y a n d ki s s i t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
20

M R N H L E K O : O k a y. A n d i t s a y s:
“The

secretary

may

do

all

that

is

necessary

to

p e rf o rm t h e f u n ct i o n s o f t h e se c r e t a r y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

A ct u a l l y, I h e a r y o u b e t t e r w h e n y o u h a ve

g o t i t cl o s e r n o w.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
Page 128 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : N o , t h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h C h a i r.
“. . . i n cl u d i n g r e q u e st i n g a n d o b t a i n i n g i n f o rm a t i o n a n d
d o cu m e n t s r e l a t i n g t o a n y m a t t e r u n d e r t h e c o n t r o l o f
t h e p o l i c e s e r v i ce . . . ”
S o , i n o t h e r w o rd s, i t i s t h i s p a rt i c u l a r i n st i t u t i o n c a l l e d
the

C i vi l i a n

S e c re t a ri a t

for

Police

that

is

allowed

and

e n a b l e d i n l a w t o o b t a i n . . . t o r e q u e st a n d o b t a i n i n f o r m a t i o n
and documents relating to any matter under the control of
10

t h e p o l i c e s e r v i ce , o k a y?
So

that

is

one

p a rt i cu l a r

i n st r u m e n t .

The

other

i n st r u m e n t w e l o o k e d i n t o w a s S e ct i o n 1 2 A o f t h e P u b l i c
S e r vi c e s A ct w h i c h i n e s s e n c e st a t e s t h a t :
“E x e c u t i n g a u t h o r i t i e s a s t h e C a b i n e t m a y a p p o i n t
m o r e o r m o r e p e r s o n s u n d e r a c o n t ra ct w h e t h e r i n a
f u l l -t i m e o r p a rt -t i m e c a p a ci t y:
a ) t o a d vi s e t h e e x e cu t i v e a u t h o ri t y o n t h e e x e r c i se
or

the

p e rf o r m a n c e

of

the

executive

a u t h o ri t i e s ’

powers and duties...”
20

N o w C h a i r, I h a v e i d e n t i f i e d t h e n e e d i n t e r m s o f w h a t
w e re t h e t o p i c a l i s s u e s w i t h i n t h e p o l i c e p o rt f o l i o b u t I
n e e d e d t o g e t c o r re ct a d vi c e a r o u n d i s s u e s t h a t p e rt a i n e d t o
m y p e rf o r m a n c e a n d d u t i e s t h e n a s m i n i st e r.
CHAIRPERSON: On the legal framework?
M R N H L E K O : O n . . . ye s, o n t h e l e g a l f r a m e w o r k.
Page 129 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR NHLEKO:
“b )

to

a d vi s e

the

e x e c u t i ve

a u t h o ri t y

on

the

d e ve l o p m e n t o f p o l i c e t h a t w i l l p r o m o t e t h e re l e v a n t
d e p a rt m e n t ’s o b j e ct i v e s. . . ”
S u p p o se f o r a n e x a m p l e , y o u h a d a si t u a t i o n w h e r e
s o m e o f t h e se h u m a n r e s o u r c e s m a n a g e m e n t i s su e s t h a t
w e re t h e r e , w e r e b e c a u s e o f a g a b i n p o l i ci n g o f w h a t e v e r
nature.
10

S o a n y p e r s o n t h a t w o u l d t h e n a d vi s e , b e c a u s e t h e
m i n i st e r w o u l d t h e n s a y b u t t h e r e i s t h i s g a b h e re , p o l i c y w i s e a n d t h e re f o re i t n e e d s t o b e r e ct i f i e d s o t h a t t h e s e
problems should not occur in future.

I a m j u st a n e x a m p l e .

It is a rough example.
L a st l y, t h e 1 2 A ( c ) s a y s:
“ c)

to

p e rf o rm

s u ch

other

tasks

as

may

be

a p p r o p ri a t e i n r e s p e ct o f t h e e x e r ci s e o r p e rf o rm a n c e
o f t h e e x e c u t i ve a u t h o ri t i e s’ p o w e r s a n d d u t i e s. . . ”
S o t h a t i s w h a t 1 2 A o f t h e P u b l i c S e r vi c e s A ct s a y s. T h e
20

l a st a r e a i s a n i n st r u m e n t c a l l e d P a rt i i i ( g ) o f t h e P u b l i c
S e r vi c e s R e g u l a t i o n o f 2 0 0 1 , w h i c h st a t e s t h a t :
“A n

executive

a u t h o ri t y

m a y,

within

the

r e l e va n t

budget, employ person additionally to the approved
e st a b l i sh m e n t w h e r e :
b)

a t e m p o r a r y i n cr e a s e i n w o r k o c cu r s; o r
Page 130 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
c)

it

is

n e ce s s a r y

for

any

other

re a s o n

to

t e m p o ra ri l y i n c r e a s e t h e st a ff o f t h e d e p a rt m e n t . . . ”
S o i n t o t a l i t y o f a l l t h e s e p a rt i c u l a r i n st r u m e n t s w h e r e
e n a b l i n g i n st ru m e n t s, f o r m e t h e n a s m i n i st e r, t o s e t u p w h a t
i s c o m m o n l y r e f e rr e d t o t h e R e f e r e n ce G r o u p .

Yo u co u l d

h a ve c a l l e d i t a n y o t h e r t h i n g I s u p p o s e .
B u t w e ca l l e d i t t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p a n d i t w a s u n d e r
t h e a u s p i c e s o f t h e C i v i l i a n S e c r e t a ri a t f o r P o l i c e b e ca u s e
t h a t w a s t h e co r r e ct s o rt o f a r e a f o r t h e m t o b e h o u s e d .
10

N o w. . . [ t h r o a t cl e a r i n g ]

S o r ry, C h a i r.

I think I do need

t o e l u d e t o t h e c o m p o si t i o n o f t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p b e ca u s e
o n e t h i n g t h a t d i st u r b e d m e C h a i r i s t h a t i t h a s b e e n s a i d ,
a n d I t h i n k t h i s i s s u e a l s o c o m e s o u t o f M r M cB ri d e ’s
a ff i d a vi t , a n d I t h i n k w h e n w e b e g a n t h e C o m m i s si o n . . .
[ t h r o a t cl e a ri n g ] S o rr y.
When

we

began

the

proceedings

here,

there

is

a

f o r m u l a t i o n t h a t t h e l e a d e r o f . . . s o r r y, w h a t d o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r H u l l e y.
20

M R N H L E K O : M r H u l l e y. O k a y. J a , Mr H u l l e y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
MR NHLEKO:

T h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r.

Ye s, I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e

c o r r e ct . . . t h e e vi d e n ce l e a d e r. Yo u re f e rr e d t o a p h r a s e , y o u
k n o w,

of

the

Reference

Group

being

a

“hit

s q u a d ”.

S o m e t h i n g l i k e t h a t . W h e t h e r t h a t a r i se s o u t o f M r M cB ri d e ’s
Page 131 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a rt i c u l a t i o n s o r w h a t e v e r b u t t h e r e w a s t h a t .
A n d I t h i n k i t i s i m p o rt a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, I t h i n k h e . . . . Mr H u l l e y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC: I was para-phrasing.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y o u w e r e p a r a - p h r a si n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e c o r r e ct w o r d . J a , p a r a p h r a si n g .

N o w. . . a n d I a m n o t s u g g e st i n g t h a t t h e r e i s

a n yt h i n g w r o n g w i t h yo u r p a ra - p h r a si n g b u t I d o n e e d t o
10

cl a ri f y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ju st a s a s u g g e st i o n .

A s I u n d e r st o o d i t

w a s t h a t a s M r H u l l e y u n d e r st o o d t h e r e w a s a s u g g e st i o n
t h a t y o u w e r e u si n g t h e R e f e re n c e G r o u p f o r c e rt a i n a g e n d a s
t o g e t ri d o f c e rt a i n p e o p l e . Ja .
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s, e xa ct l y.

S o t h a t i s w h y. . . w i t h y o u r

p e r m i s si o n C h a i r, I a m g e t t i n g t o t h i s a r e a a b o u t , w h o a r e
t h e se i n d i v i d u a l s t h a t w e . . . t h a t a r e r e f e rr i n g t o c o n st i t u t i n g
the Reference Group.
T h e f i v e h u m a n i n d i vi d u a l s t h a t w e a r e r e f e r ri n g t o ,
20

p o s se s s e d a v a ri e t y o f s ki l l s t h a t w e i n d e e d r e q u i r e d f o r t h e
t a s k a t h a n d a n d t h a t w o u l d b e i d e n t i f yi n g t h e s e a r e a s o f
need.
They

possessed

legal

st r a t e g y

planning

of

National

D e v e l o p m e n t o f I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d S e c u ri t y Wo r k, a s w e l l a s,
t h e I n st i t u t i o n o f F o r m e r S ki l l s.
Page 132 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
N o w, b e f o r e I d e a l w i t h t h e q u e st i o n o f w h a t i s t h a t t h e y
w e re , y o u kn o w, b a si c a l l y r e q u i re d t o d o , i n o t h e r w o r d s, t h e
Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e a s i s c o n st i t u t e d t h e r e .
Let

me

deal

with

the

preference

of

these

human

i n d i vi d u a l s. T h e c o o r d i n a t o r o f t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p w a s a n
a d vo c a t e , M a r g a r e t K ru g e r.
N o w i n t e r m s o f h e r a c a d e m i c q u a l i f i c a t i o n s. S h e h a s a n
L L B w i t h t h e U n i v e r s i t y o f N a t a l . In s o f a r a s t h e p r o f e s si o n a l

10

e x p e ri e n c e

is

c o n ce r n e d ,

c o n d u ct i n g ,

leading

and

she

has

managing

an

experience

c o m m i s si o n s,

in

foreign

i n v e st i g a t i o n s a n d p u b l i c a n d p ri v a t e s e ct o r s i n S o u t h A f ri c a
a n d i n t e rn a t i o n a l d o n o r o r g a n i s a t i o n s.
R e vi e w i n g . . . s h e a l s o h a s e x p e ri e n c e i n r e vi e w i n g a n d
graph

drafting

organisational

st r u ct u re s,

financial

m a n a g e m e n t , s y s t e m s, p o l i ci e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s, c o d e s o f
c o n d u ct . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o rr y, M r N h l e ko .
M R N H L E K O : . . . a n d p h y si c a l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC: For the benefit of the Chairperson.
20

M R N H L E K O : O h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

...if you can identify the document... Mr

C h a i r, I b e l i e v e t h e w i t n e s s i s r e f e rr i n g t o E x h i b i t Y 8 i n . . . o n
page 3442. It looks like Y8. It is SS.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay what is the page?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th r e e , f o u r, f o u r, t w o .
Page 133 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

T h re e ,

f o u r,

f o u r,

two.

Ye s ?

Okay

continue.
MR NHLEKO:

S o I w a s o n t h e p o i n t j u st ci t i n g t h a t h e r. . . i n

t h e s e c o n d a r e a o f h e r w o r k e x p e r i e n c e i s i n re v i e w i n g a n d
drafting
s y st e m s,

o rg a n i s a t i o n
p o l i ci e s

st r u ct u re s,

and

f i n a n ci a l

p r o c e d u r e s,

codes

management
of

c o n d u ct

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , b e f o r e y o u p r o ce e d f u rt h e r.

I have

g o t M a r g a re t K r u g e r, t h e o n e y o u a r e d e a l i n g w i t h n o w.
10

U n d e r a c a d e m i c q u a l i f i ca t i o n s, i t i s w ri t t e n L L B a n d t h e n a
B a c c a s, 1 9 7 9 , U n i v e r s i t y o f N a t a l .
I f sh e g o t h e r L L B i n 1 9 7 9 , t h e r e m u st b e a p ri o r d e g re e ,
a j u n i o r d e g r e e t o o b e f o re t h a t b e ca u s e i n S o u t h A f ri c a
b e f o r e e v e n t h a t t i m e , a s f a r a s I k n o w, yo u co u l d n o t h a ve
LLB without a junior degree.
So

she

mentioning.

probably

has

another

degree.

I

am

j u st

S o s h e w o u l d h a v e a j u n i o r d e g re e , m a y b e B A ,

m a y b e B C o m , m a y b e B P ro c o r B J u ri s. S h e m i g h t h a v e b e e n
m o d e st a n d n o t w ri t t e n i t h e r e .
20

M R N H L E K O : Ye s, p r o b a b l y. P ro b a b l y. B u t a l so t a k i n g i n t o
a c c o u n t C h a i r, t h i s i s j u st a s u m m a r y b a si ca l l y.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. That is fine.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

The... what I am doing is that... you see,

f ro m a c e rt a i n y e a r a f t e r. . . I d o n o t k n o w w h i ch y e a r, i n
Page 134 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
S o u t h A f ri c a w e h a v e a n L L B w h i c h i s a j u n i o r d e g r e e .
MR NHLEKO: Alright.
CHAIRPERSON:
degree.

W h e r e a s a s b e f o r e , i t w a s a p o st -g r a d

S o i f y o u . . . i f i t i s w ri t t e n L L B , i t m i g h t b e t h a t i t i s

the only degree, whereas with her it probably is not.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t i s t o a c c re d i t e d i t .
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I t i s. . . j a .
10

MR NHLEKO:

No, no, no.

I n o t e t h a t p o i n t C h a i r.

Th a n k s

very much.

S h e a l s o h a s e x p e ri e n ce i n t h e p h y s i c a l si t e

i n s p e ct i o n s

to

e n su r e

adequate

control

m e a su re s

to

m a n a g e m e n t i d e n t i f yi n g ri s k s.
N o w, A d v o ca t e K r u g e r, M a r g a re t w o r k e d w i t h t h e S o u t h
A f ri c a n

Police

S e r vi c e s

from

1982

to

1988

as

an

I n v e st i g a t i n g O ff i c e r, S e n i o r L e g a l O ff i ci a l a n d A d vi s o r t o t h e
O ff i c e o f t h e M E C o f S a f e t y a n d S e c u r i t y i n 1 9 9 4 t o 1 9 9 6 .
B u t i f I m a y a l s o j u st m e n t i o n t h a t i t i s t h i s l a st p a rt f r o m
which she... because she was quite involved with the issue
20

o f . . . t h e t r a n sf o r m a t i o n o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e
f ro m a l e g a l p o i n t o f vi e w a n d a p o l i c y p o i n t o f vi e w i n t e r m s
o f ch a n g i n g i t s o u t l o o k a n d s o f o rt h .
I t h i n k sh e h a s q u i t e . . . s h e w a s q u i t e e xt e n si v e l y d u ri n g
t h a t p e ri o d , 1 9 9 4 t o 1 9 9 6 a n d s o o n .

B u t a l so , t h e f o r e n si c

e x p e ri e n c e , q u i t e c ri t i c a l i n t e rm s o f w h a t w e h a d i d e n t i f i e d .
Page 135 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
N o w,

Mr

p o s se s s e s

B e si s o ( ? )

a

Diploma

Richard

in

Harding

Mi l i t a r y

S ci e n ce

[01:03:50],
a

Zi m b a b w e

Te c h n i c a l S e r vi c e s f ro m t h e I n t e l l i g e n c e A ca d e m y, B a si c
Intelligence,

National

Occupation

and

S a f e t y,

Mi d d l e -

m a n a g e m e n t C o u r se , P r o j e ct M a n a g e m e n t C o u r se , P u b l i c
F i n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t C o u r s e a n d S e c u ri t y Tr a i n i n g C o u r s e .
N o w,

sh e

ideally

would

h a ve

been

an

i n st r u m e n t e d

p e r s o n o r. . . n o t i n st ru m e n t e d , m a y b e c ri t i c a l i n s o f a r a s, w h a t
w e re t h e s e t h i n g s a t C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e ?
10

For an example.

W h y w e re w e e x p e ri e n ci n g w h a t e v e r w e w e r e e x p e r i e n ci n g
there?
So
S e c u ri t y

here

is

and

an

e xt e n si v e

Risk

e x p e ri e n c e

Management,

as

in

I n st i t u t i o n
well

a s,

C o u n t e ri n t e l l i g e n c e .
M a j o r p r o j e ct s i n cl u d e t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o f c o rr u p t i o n i n
E a st e rn C a p e , 2 0 0 2 / 2 0 0 3 , t h e i n t e g r a t i o n o f I n t e l l i g e n ce
S e r vi c e

between

the

year

1998

to

2000,

i n cl u d i n g

the

e st a b l i sh m e n t o f t h e P r o vi n ci a l I n t e l l i g e n ce a n d C o m m i t t e e
and
20

i n v e st i g a t i n g

vi o l e n c e

and

ki l l i n g s,

i n cl u d i n g

the

G u m b o (? ) Z o l a ( ? ) Vi o l e n ce [ 0 1 : 0 5 : 0 2 ] a n d a l s o w o r ki n g f o r
t h e M o e r a n e C o m m i s si o n .
The third person was Advocate Simon Molefe [01:05:12]
w h o a l so L L B , C h a i r. I m a d e su r e t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , i t i s f i n e . [ l a u g h s]
MR NHLEKO:

[ l a u g h s]

W i t h r e f e r e n ce t o m y e a rl i e r q u o t e ,
Page 136 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l ,

he

has

given

e vi d e n c e

in

this

C o m m i s si o n .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: And I think he said he obtained his LLB in
2 0 1 0 o r t h e r e a b o u t s.
M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e d i d n o t s a y h e d i d a p ri o r. . . I t h i n k

t h i s i s t h e n e w L L B i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n .
10

M R N H L E K O : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:
safe

there

No, that is fine.

C h a i r.

He

has

Thanks very much.

an

e xt e n si v e

I am

e x p e ri e n ce

at

p r o g r e s si ve i n st i t u t i o n s i n cl u d i n g t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 0 5 : 5 1 ]
a n d a s s o ci a t e a t t o r n e y s, 1 9 7 9 t o 1 9 8 1 .

Then at church,

1 9 8 1 t o 1 9 8 3 , M e t h o d i st C h u r c h o f S o u t h A f ri c a , 1 9 8 8 t o
1 9 8 9 , C e n t re f o r B l a c k E c o n o m i c D e v e l o p m e n t , 1 9 8 9 t o
1994.
H e a l s o w o r k e d a s C E O a n d C h a i r m a n o f F K I n ve st m e n t
20

H o l d i n g s, 1 9 9 4 t o 2 0 0 3 a n d b y t h e n h e w a s c u r r e n t . . . h e
w a s. . . b y t h e n h e w a s. . . so r ry.
B e c a u s e I d o n o t kn o w w h a t h i s s i t u a t i o n n o w i s.

He

w a s t h e P a rl i a m e n t a r y L i a i s o n O ff i c e r a n d S p o ke s p e r so n f o r
t h e D e p u t y M i n i st e r R a m a t h l o d i .
The

f o u rt h

person

is

Mr

Zule

Page 137 of 231

Zulu

[01:06:31]

who

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
p o s se s s e s a M a s t e r ’s i n B u si n e s s A d m i n i st r a t i o n , a p o st g r a d D i p l o m a i n B u si n e s s M a n a g e m e n t , B a c h e l o r ’s D e g r e e i n
B u si n e s s Te c h n o l o g y.
He

himself

Organisational
P e rf o r m a n c e

has

an

e xt e n si v e

Development,

Management

e xp e ri e n ce

S t ra t e g y

and Auditing,

Planning
p ri m a ri l y

in
and

in

the

p u b l i c se ct o r.
H e w a s q u i t e a ct i v e a t so m e p o i n t , I a m n o t su r e n o w b u t
w i t h t h e v a ri o u s s o rt o f g o v e r n m e n t d e p a rt m e n t s i n t h e
10

p r o vi n c e se l f .

He was not at the time when I asked him to

a l s o co m e h e r e .
The
Natenzu

l a st

person

[01:07:15]

s o m e w h e re .

is

Advocate

who

also

Kulelane(?)
has

been

H e h a s a n L L M. . . a n L L M .

R a ym o n d
mentioned

S o r ry.

A 2006

C ri m i n a l L a w i n C ri m i n a l P r o c e d u r e , 2 0 0 9 L a b o u r L a w, L L B
1996.
J a , I t h i n k i t i s w ri t t e n b y t w o w o r d s o r m a y b e t w i c e L L M .
I s u sp e ct . . . n o , I s u s p e ct s o .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

C ri m i n a l L a w.

J a , C ri m i n a l P r o c e d u r e .

I

d o n o t k n o w.
MR

NHLEKO:

Ye s.

And

then

he

has

twenty

ye a r s’

e x p e ri e n c e i n t h e N a t i o n a l P r o se c u t i n g S e r vi c e s.

P r o j e ct s

i n cl u d e

and

SASSA

Fraud

and

Corruption

P r o j e ct

the

D e p a rt m e n t o f J u st i c e , F ra u d a n d C o rr u p t i o n P r o j e c t s a n d o f
c o u r s e , t h e a d m i n i st r a t i o n f o r t h a t b u t e s s e n t i a l l y, t h o s e
Page 138 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
w e re

your

members

of

the

Reference

Group.

Now

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o rr y.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I a m s o r ry.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : J u st o n e q u e st i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h e r e f e r e n c e t o a d m i n i st r a t o r t o a

s e cr e t a r y?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, a se c r e t a r y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y.

S o t h i s p a rt i c u l a r d o cu m e n t w a s

c o m p i l e d b y t h e C i v i l i a n S e cr e t a ri a t f o r P o l i ce .

Is that

c o r r e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct s i r.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e p e o p l e w h o a re i d e n t i f i e d o v e r

h e r e , e a c h o f t h e m , d i d t h e y c o m e f ro m o u t si d e t h e p u bl i c
s e r v i ce o r w e r e t h e y a l r e a d y i n t h e p u b l i c se r vi c e ?
MR NHLEKO:
20

No, they are a mix in a sense.

L e t m e j u st

g i v e y o u a n e x a m p l e . A d vo c a t e M a rg a r e t K r u g e r, i f I a m n o t
m i st a k e n , I c a n b e co r re ct e d o n t h i s o n e .
Tr e a s u r y i n K Z N .

He was with

J a , I t h i n k h e w a s w o r ki n g w i t h t h e M E C

f o r F i n a n c e i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n . T h a t co u l d b e t h a t .
N o w, M r H a rd i n g , a t t h e t i m e w h e n I a s k e d h i m a n d h e
w a s t h e S e c u ri t y M a n a g e r i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e . O f c o u r s e ,
Page 139 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
M r S i m o n e M u l a u d zi N o m f e [ 0 1 : 0 9 : 2 6 ] o f c o u r s e w a s w i t h t h e
D e p u t y M i n i st e r R a m a t h l o d i .
M r Z u l e Z u l u [ 0 1 : 0 9 : 3 3 ] , I t h i n k h e w a s a p ri v a t e . . . w h a t
d o . . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y c a l l h i m . A p ri v a t e c o n s u l t a n t o f
s o rt s. I t h i n k h e . . . I m a y b e a l so w r o n g t h e re .
And so... and of course Mr Kulelane [01:09:41, Advocate
Kulelane Raymond Natenzu 01:09:47 were with the National
P r o s e cu t o r A u t h o r i t y. S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M o st

of

them

w e re

within

the

public

s e ct o r ?
MR NHLEKO:

Ja , w i t h i n t h e p u b l i c s e r v i ce r e a l l y.

With the

e x c e p t i o n . . . p e r h a p s w e ca n s a y, y o u k n o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
MR NHLEKO:

. . . t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e s o m e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

q u a l i f i ca t i o n . M r Z u l u , h e w a s n o t i n t h e p u b l i c s e r vi c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR

NHLEKO:

But

he

was

w o r ki n g

with

the

public

i n st i t u t i o n s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R N H L E K O : Yo u k n o w.
ADV HULLEY SC:
process?

T h e y. . .

A n d w a s t h i s p a rt o f a r e c ru i t m e n t
was

it

a d ve r t i s e d

to

go

through

a

re c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s ?
MR NHLEKO:

No, it was not.

We n e e d e d t o c o n s t i t u t e a

d i ff e r e n t s co p e a n d I a t t h e t i m e n e e d e d t o i d e n t i f y t h e
Page 140 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
re q u i r e d s ki l l s.

S o , a s p a rt o f t h a t p r o ce s s, I h a d . . . w e

i d e n t i f i e d t h e s e i n d i vi d u a l s a n d sa i d , “ L o o k, p l e a s e c o m e a n d
a s si st u s w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e i s s u e s. ”

T h a t I h a d sp o k e n t o

e a rl i e r.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s. B u t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

H o w d i d y o u g o a b o u t i d e n t i f yi n g t h o s e

i n d i vi d u a l s ?
MR NHLEKO:
10

H’m.

How can I put?

I t i s. . . l o o k, I ca n n o t

re m e m b e r e xa ct l y h o w I m u st h a v e g o n e a b o u t i t .

I really

c a n n o t s a y, e x c e p t t h a t w h e n y o u a r e h e a d h u n t i n g , y o u g o
a n d a s ki n g p e o p l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t a l k t o p e o p l e ?
MR NHLEKO:

Yo u t a l k t o p e o p l e .

Yo u s a y b u t w h o i s t h e

t y p e o f h u m a n c h a r a ct e r t h a t c a n a s si st f o r i n st a n c e a ro u n d
the issues such as the Human Resources if it is Intelligence
or whatever and so on.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR NHLEKO:
20

A n d t h e n a t t i m e y o u w i l l g e t t o m i x. . . i t i s

a l m o st l i k e a h e a d h u n t i n g e x e r c i s e i n H u m a n R e s o u r c e s
Management.
CHAIRPERSON:

Of the people who made up the Reference

G r o u p a s y o u h a v e i d e n t i f i e d t h e m , w e re t h e re a n y o f t h e m
t h a t y o u k n e w b e f o r e t h e y ca m e o n t o t h e . . . y o u k n e w a t a
p e r s o n a l l e ve l b e f o r e t h e y ca m e o n t o . . . t h e y c a m e o n b o a r d ?
Page 141 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

We l l , I . . . f o r i n st a n c e I k n e w M r H a rd i n g , y o u

k n o w, t h e h i st o ri c a l b a c k g r o u n d , s o rt o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s. I d i d n o t kn o w t h e a d v o c a t e , K r u g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

Then you get people, they will tell you:

“O h ,

j a I k n o w b u t y o u k n o w t h i s A d v o c a t e K ru g e r w a s i n v o l v e d
with this and that and he is quite clued up around issues of
t ra n sf o rm a t i o n ”.
10

A s a n d w h e n t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e

S e r vi c e b e g a n w i t h t h e d e m o c r a t i c g o ve r n m e n t i n 1 9 9 4 a n d
so on.
S o I kn e w. . . I a l s o b ri e f l y k n e w M r Z u l e Z u l u . I k n e w h i m
before

1994

a s. . .

we

were

involved

in

some

p a rt i cu l a r

st ru ct u r e p a rt i cu l a r l y w h e n I st e p p e d d o w n a s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct
0 1 : 1 2 : 5 0 ] s e cr e t a r y f r o m t h i s e n d a n d w e n t b a c k t o K Z N a n d
so on. So ja, I knew some of them.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R N H L E K O : H ’ m . S i m i l a rl y, a l s o w i t h re g a rd s t o A d v o ca t e
Natenzu [01:13:05].
20

H e i s a p e r s o n t h a t I h a ve d i s c o v e r e d

through this head-hunting.

And so otherwise, I had not

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I h a d n o t k n o w n h i m b e f o r e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R N H L E K O : S o , y e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hulley?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
Page 142 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
M R N H L E K O : N o w, I t h i n k I h a ve s p o ke n t o t h e i s s u e o f h o w
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e f e r ri n g t o t h e n e e d .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S p o k e n t o t h e l e g a l f r a m e w o r k.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u i d e n t i f i e d p e o p l e t h ro u g h w h a t e v e r
p r o c e s s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
10

CHAIRPERSON: ...you used.
MR NHLEKO:

No, we then did... when I say we.

C h a i r, b y

t h e w a y, y o u k n o w, i t i s j u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : . . . i t i s a cu l t u r a l i s s u e t h a t [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n I ?
M R N H L E K O : I m e a n I , y e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR

NHLEKO:

Ye s.

I m u st b e ca r e f u l b e c a u s e I a m

s u r r o u n d e d b y l a w y e r s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
MR NHLEKO:

A n d t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n t m e a n i n g t o a l m o st

e v e r yt h i n g y o u s a y.

N o w, w e t h e n . . . I p u t t o g e t h e r. . . l e t m e

try to get back to the individualistic language.

I then put

t o g e t h e r t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t e r m s o f re f e r e n c e .
F i r st l y,

the

r e f e re n c e

would

Page 143 of 231

gather

all

necessary

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
b a c kg r o u n d i n f o r m a t i o n a n d m a t e r i a l i n r e l a t i o n t o e a ch o f
t h e i d e n t i f i e d a r e a s.

N o w, t h e f i v e a r e a s t h a t I h a d sp o k e n

t o e a rl i e r o n C h a i r.
S e c o n d l y, t h a t t h e y w e r e t o i n vi t e i n p u t s o n t h e s p e ci f i c
i s s u e s f r o m p o l i c e m a n a g e m e n t a n d d i r e ct l y o r i n d i re ct l y
f ro m a ff e ct e d a l l i n v o l v e d i n d i vi d u a l s f r o m w i t h i n t h e s e r v i ce .
T h i s l i n e i s q u i t e i m p o rt a n t b e c a u s e i n t h e p o l i ce a n d
g e n e r a l l y i n t h e p u b l i c s e r v i ce t h e r e i s a r e g i m e n t t h a t i s s o rt
o f a p p r o a c h t o t h i n g s b u t w e w a n t e d p e o p l e t o b e f re e .
10

S o , i n o t h e r w o r d s, f o r y o u , i f y o u h a d a n i s s u e , y o u
k n o w,

you

n e c e s s a r i l y. . .

you

did

not

have

to

go

to

a

s u p e r vi s o r t o g o a n d t h e n s a y I a m s e e ki n g f o r p e r m i s si o n t o
g o a n d t a l k t o t h e R e f e r e n ce G ro u p a b o u t t h e g ri e v a n c e t h a t
I h a v e o r w h a t e v e r. I a m j u st m a ki n g a n e x a m p l e .
So that is why we then broadened it out and said it is
f ro m p o l i c e m a n a g e m e n t d i r e ct l y o r i n d i r e ct l y f r o m a ff e ct e d
a l l i n v o l v e d i n d i vi d u a l s f r o m w i t h i n t h e s e r vi c e .
T h e t h i rd a r e a .
re l e v a n t
20

p e r so n

T h e y a l s o n e e d e d t o i n t e r vi e w a n y

and/or

persons

who

may

provide

any

i n f o r m a t i o n i n c o n n e ct i o n w i t h i d e n t i f i e d m a t t e r s.
T h e f o u rt h a r e a .

T h e y n e e d e d t o c o n d u ct r e s e a r ch ,

e x a m i n e a n d a n a l y s e a n y vi t a l m a t e r i a l , d o c u m e n t o r m e d i a
a rt i c l e r e l e va n t t o e a ch i d e n t i f i e d m a t t e r.
The fifth area.
a n a l y se

the

T h e y w e r e t o c o n d u ct r e s e a r c h a n d

implications

of

the

Page 144 of 231

legal

regulatory

or

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
g o ve r n m e n t e n vi r o n m e n t p e rt a i n i n g t o t h e i d e n t i f i e d m a t t e r s.
N o w, I t h i n k I m a d e t h i s e x a m p l e e a rl i e r o n w h e re w e
could

delve

into

a

p a rt i c u l a r

matter

a re a

. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

p r e v e n t so , d i s p u t e o r w h a t e v e r t h e c a s e i s b u t t h e n y o u
w o u l d e n d u p i d e n t i f yi n g l e g i sl a t i v e g a p s o r p o l i c y g a b s o r
p r o c e d u r a l g a p s o f s o rt s.
So this term of reference, it was actually to deal with it.
T h e l a st a r e a i s t h a t t h e y w e r e t o c o m p i l e re p o rt s i n e a c h . . .
of each identified area.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR NHLEKO:

S o p e r e a ch s p e ci f i c s o rt o f t h e a r e a t h e y

w e re . . . t h e y n e e d e d t o p r o d u c e t h e i r p o i n t s.

N o w, t h e

t i m e f r a m e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n . J u st o n e s e co n d M r N h l e k o .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We a re t a ki n g t o o l o n g o n t h i s.
ADV HULLEY SC: I think so.
CHAIRPERSON:

I am not aware that much was placed

b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s si o n i n s u p p o rt o f a n y a l l e g a t i o n t h a t M r
20

N h l e k o w a s u si n g t h e R e f e r e n ce G ro u p o r f o r t o g e t ri d o f
people.
M y o w n r e c o l l e ct i o n a s w e s p e a k i s t h a t i t m i g h t h a v e
been

a

one

sentence

or

j u st

very

limited

allegations

s o m e w h e re b u t m y re c o l l e ct i o n m i g h t n o t b e g o o d .
I s t h e re m u st t h a t w a s s a i d i n s u p p o rt o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n ?
Page 145 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
I j u st d o n o t w a n t u s t o s p e n d t o o m u c h t i m e o n s o m e t h i n g
that ...[intervenes]
ADV HULLEY SC:

What I had hoped is that we will not go

t h r o u g h t h e e n t i r e . . . re a d . . . w h a t M r N h l e k o w a s d o i n g a t t h e
m o m e n t i s t o r e a d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

. . . b a s i ca l l y v e r b a t i m e v e r y a s p e ct o f t h e

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s, I t h i n k w h a t w e s h o u l d d o M r N h l e k o .

We l e t M r H u l l e y l e a d y o u i n r e g a r d t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i m p o rt a n t t h i n g s b e c a u s e f o r e x a m p l e ,
h e w o u l d t e l l y o u t h a t . . . i f i t i s, f o r e x a m p l e , M r M c B r i d e w h o
made this allegation, he will tell you what he... what Mr
M c B ri d e p u t u p i n su p p o rt o f t h e a l l e g a t i o n w h a t d i d h e sa y
b e ca u s e t h a t m i g h t g i v e yo u a n i n d i c a t i o n o f w h a t a n s w e r i s
enough to deal with that.
If there is a lot that was said, you might have a lot to
s a y. I f t h e re w a s v e r y l i t t l e t h a t w a s s a i d , y o u m i g h t b e a b l e

20

t o su m m a ri s e y o u r r e s p o n s e i n re g a rd t o t h a t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I a m j u st . . . I d o n o t h a v e a cl e a r

re c o l l e ct i o n t h a t m u c h w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e m e i n s u p p o rt o f
the allegation. Mr Nhleko wants to say something?
MR NHLEKO:

J a -n o , t h a n k s ve r y m u c h C h a i r.
Page 146 of 231

I accept the

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
p o i n t a n d I a p p r e ci a t e t h e st a n d p o i n t b y yo u r s e l f a s t h e
C h a i r o f t h e C o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. H’m.
MR NHLEKO:
f i r st o n e .

T h e o n l y p r o b l e m t h o u g h i s t w o l e ve l s.

The

I f yo u s a y b y a n y o t h e r f o r m , y o u kn o w, e v e n i f

y o u s a y h a l f a s e n t e n c e a n d t h e n y o u s a y I c o n st i t u t e d a
group which is a... which should be perceived as a “hit
s q u a d ” f o r a n e x a m p l e , t h a t t a l k s t o u sa g e o f a n i l l e g i t i m a t e
i n st i t u t i o n o f g o v e rn m e n t f o r n e f a ri o u s r e a s o n s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

NHLEKO:

No, I understand, ja.
So

I’m

saying

that

those

are

the

implications.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
B u t t h e s e c o n d p o i n t , C h a i r, I a m s o r r y t o

[speaking in Zulu] it is – the second point here is that
…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e d o i n g l i k e M s M o k o n y a n e a s

well.
MR NHLEKO:
20

O h , I a m s o r r y.

CHAIRPERSON:

On Monday she would through in these

Zulu words.
MR NHLEKO:

M y a p o l o g i e s , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

Now the second area, I think there has got

to be an appreciation that these matters as we deal with
Page 147 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
them

before

ventilated

the

at

Commission,

a

public

they

level

have

and

also

all

misunderstanding about them there and so on.

been

sorts

of

So we also

do need ourselves as members of the Commission, you
k n o w,

perhaps

excluding

myself

because

I

am

not

a

member but we need also to be alive to the issue of the
exercise as being conducted here, it serves there in the
interest of the public to clarify some of these particular
matters and that is no fault of the Commission but I am
10

saying the reason why I would go to town about this, to try
and clarify this thing, is because you absolutely have no
idea, Chairperson of the Commission, how many wrong
things have been said about this particular matter and
many others at a public level and so on.
So it is that kind of balance so I am trying to also
explain the dilemma …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

20

Ye s , n o , n o , I u n d e r s t a n d .

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

The point I am making is, it is not to say

you

respond

should

not

because

you

were

asked

a

question, even if you are not asked a question there was
this suggestion that was – that Mr Hulley referred to that
there was a suggestion that the reference scope that you
used, that reference scope for some agenda.

So all I am

simply saying is, there might be no need for us to take too
Page 148 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
much time on it, it may be that – it is the kind of thing
where you say one, I deny that I used the reference group
for any such agenda, the reference group was a legitimate
group, here was the need for it, the law permitted me to do
it and this was their function. Five minutes, they are done.
So my concern was that we had taken quite long but
I am not blaming you for that, I just want to make sure as
we move forward, this is how we can deal with matters.
ADV HULLEY SC:
10

Mr Chair and of course important

…[intervenes]
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry?

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

If I may …[intervenes]

If I may then, I…

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

Then I agree with Chair that we

should focus on specific issues.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

And then maybe also for Mr Nhleko to

be brief, if Mr Hulley can maybe when he puts a question
20

also make aware of what is it that was alleged.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

So that he able to answer that

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , n o , n o .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

But on this one I agree with the Chair
Page 149 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
that really then all what was said then was that he using
this but nothing was put in the question.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

So we can move forward.

Ye s , y e s , o k a y.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

And keep in eye contact – most of the

time when you respond to his questions you look at me but
do keep an eye contact with him because he will also – you
10

will be able – you will see when he wants to move to the
next question.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ve r y w e l l . T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. S o , i f

I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, t h e p r o c e s s f o l l o w e d i n a p p o i n t i n g
this reference group and you have deal with the legislation,
the legislative framework and so forth, the process that
was

followed

in

appointing

the

reference

group,

if

I

u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, s t a r t e d o f f i n i t i a l l y o u t o f a n e e d t h a t
had been identified or certain matters that were prominent
or what you referred to as burning issues within the SAPS
20

at the time.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r m i c i s o f f , y o u c a n k e e p i t o n , M r

Nhleko.
MR NHLEKO:

Oh, thank you, yes.

ADV HULLEY SC:
long

had

it

taken

N o w j u s t b r i e f l y, t h a t p r o c e s s , h o w
to

conduct

the

Page 150 of 231

process

where

you

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
identified the burning issues within the SAPS?
MR NHLEKO:

I cannot recall how long it took but it was

quite a packed kind of problem because it did not, even
although it dealt with the question of provincial visits and
visits to various institutions and so on. It could have been,
I mean, two months or below two months or something like
t h a t , I d o n o t k n o w.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:
10

Sure.

But I cannot recall exactly the period.

ADV HULLEY SC:

No, fair enough.

And out of that

process came a need to establish a reference group.
MR NHLEKO:

Correct.

ADV HULLEY SC:

That you thought might be able to

address some of those issues.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And

the process to

appoint

that

reference group, in other words, to identify the relevant
people, with the requisite skill set to go onto that reference
group to meet the needs or to address the burning issues,
20

how long did that process last?
MR NHLEKO:

Again, I would not really recall the specific

period because there was work that the civilians iterate
here for policy also needed to do in terms of just formal
work for the actual appointments and so on.

There was a

question of if myself then as minister having got to write
Page 151 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
letters

to

the

principals

of

these

-

where

the

people

worked.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

Ye s , f o r t h e m t o b e r e l e a s e d f o r t h i s k i n d o f

work.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And this reference group, was it a full

time reference group or were they – those were within the
civil service, were they required to attend to the normal job
and attend to this?
10

MR NHLEKO:

N o , w e – i f I c a n r e m e m b e r, I t h i n k e v e n i n

t h e l e t t e r s t h a t I m u s t h a v e s e n t o u t I s p e c i f i e d , y o u k n o w,
a p a r t i c u l a r t i m e p e r i o d , y o u k n o w, i n o t h e r w o r d s i f I
wanted you to come in and help whether it was for three
months or four months, whatever the case was.

But I

suspect it could have been – I must have said in those
letters maybe three months. I think so, yes.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Sure.
So they were fulltime for a particular

duration.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

I see.

And this reference group

u l t i m a t e l y p r o d u c e d , i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, p r o d u c e d
three reports, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , i t d i d .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And that was the sum total of what

they did.
Page 152 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

That was the sum total about it of – yes, of

the three reports that it produced.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Now you say that the first report that

the – or one of the reports that they produced was the
fitness of the National Commission to hold office, the
National Commissioner of Police to hold office.
The second was the secure in comfort report and
the

third

was

the

illegal

rendition

of

the

Zimbabwean

nationals.
10

MR NHLEKO:

Right.

ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w t h a t w a s , i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y,

that was produced over a six month period, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e p e r i o d r e a l l y,

whether it was six months or so but one of the points I
wanted

to

mentioned

e a r l i e r,

before

you

came

in

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , l o o k t h i s s i d e , M r N h l e k o . A l t h o u g h

he is asking you questions you are telling me.

Yo u a r e

telling me your story and your answers.
20

MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

So the advantage if you look this side is

t h a t I c a n h e a r y o u a n d u n d e r s t a n d y o u b e t t e r.

When you

are looking that side sometimes I do not understand you.
MR NHLEKO:

I thought the Chair was suggesting in must

look at his beauty all the time.
Page 153 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no, I was saying keep an eye on

him but otherwise you look at me.
MR NHLEKO:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k e e p a n e y e s o f r o m t i m e t o t i m e

you have a look because he might be wanting to move to
the next question.
MR NHLEKO:

N o , t h a t i s a l r e a d y, t h a n k s v e r y m u c h ,

C h a i r. T h e p o i n t I w a n t e d t o t a l k t o e a r l i e r o n . T h e s e w e r e
five individuals and the scope of work was broad so one of
10

the

qualifications

I

gave

in

their

appointment

and

in

respect of the terms of reference was that they were also
at liberty to co-opt other people in different sort of fields of
t h e a r e a s t h a t t h e y w e r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r.
So they broke up into different sort of focus areas,
for an example, and then, of course, we co-opted a number
of different individuals to conduct different areas of – so
you will find that for instance the report dealing with the
fitness of the National Commissioner is not produced at the
same time with the report on the renditions or even the
20

secure in comfort kind of a report pertaining to the four
aspects in effect to the minister by parliam ent and so on.
S o t h e r e i s t h a t k i n d o f v a r i a n c e r e a l l y, s o I j u s t w a n t e d t o
clarify that point. Thanks very much.
CHAIRPERSON:

Can I take you back to the composition

of the reference group?

Yo u c a n k e e p y o u r m i c o n , i t d o e s

Page 154 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
not disturb anything.

The one member of the group that I

find strange to be included there is Mr Matengwa because I
u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o h a v e b e e n f r o m t h e N PA . I t s e e m s t o b e
a little awkward but maybe it should not be like that that a
m e m b e r o f t h e N PA , p r o s e c u t o r, s h o u l d b e i n v o l v e d i n
advising the Minister of Police.

Wa s t h e r e a s p e c i f i c

r e a s o n t o g e t s o m e b o d y f r o m t h e N PA o r y o u w e r e l o o k i n g
for somebody who may have had prosecutorial experience
a n d y o u f o u n d s o m e b o d y w i t h i n t h e N PA e v e n t h o u g h y o u
10

could have found somebody who had been a prosecutor
sometime

but

was

now

practicing

as

an

independent

lawyer?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , C h a i r, t h e c o n s i d e r a t i o n w a s n o t t h e

q u e s t i o n o f w h e t h e r a p e r s o n w o r k s f o r t h e N PA .

So in the

same way that when I say I asked Adv Kruger (?) to come
in, the consideration is not that he was …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Institution.

Ja, he is working for a particular institution

somewhere and so on.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .
I went to these individuals on the basis of

their skill set and so that was basically the consideration.
CHAIRPERSON:

But in the case of Mr Matengwa, was the

skill that you were looking for a prosecuting skill or some
other skill?
Page 155 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

A dynamic legal skill was …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Leadership?

No, legal.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Legal?

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So it could have been a legal

p r a c t i t i o n e r, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MR NHLEKO:

I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a l e g a l p r a c t i t i o n e r, a

progressive one, progressive thinking.
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

If we came across one.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

O k a y.

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now it is a point I want to come back

to at a later stage but for present purposes we know that of
all the burning issues that you dealt with and you identified
them earlier in your testimony and in your affidavit, the
concern relating to Mr Richard Nduli and why he was being
suspended and on suspension for such a long period of
20

time, that was never addressed by this reference group, is
that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

That is correct.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And was it ever addressed during your

tenure?
MR NHLEKO:

Look, there was a – let me put it to you this
Page 156 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
w a y, t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f h a p p e n i n g s a t t h e t i m e a n d s o m e
of the developments overtook others.
example.

So I will give you an

At some point whilst we – the reference group

was working they were also pressure points also relating to
the individuals that constituted the reference group, so to
c i t e o n e p a r t i c u l a r e x a m p l e , I t h i n k A d v K r u g e r, f o r a n
example, was also required for some work by her principal
at some point.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:

Work by?

Yo u k n o w, b y h e r p r i n c i p a l .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
Yo u k n o w, s o i n o t h e r w o r d s , t h e r e w e r e

also work issues that she also needed to attend to at some
point, so – and I think that also affected her time with us
as

part

of

the

reference

group

and

so

on.

So

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d i d y o u s a y, w h a t i n s t i t u t i o n w a s

that, was she attached to?
MR NHLEKO:
20

S h e w a s w i t h t h e Tr e a s u r y i n K Z N .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Tr e a s u r y ?

O h , o k a y.

Ye s , t h e Tr e a s u r y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, you say she had some issues that

took her time …[intervenes]
Page 157 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

That needed her attention back from her

area of work.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.
So I am making an example about how her

availability was getting affected also by those particular
pressures

and

development

so

but,

on.
on

the

N o w,

that

is

other

hand,

one

the

particular

development

around the question of the secure in comfort report, I think
there were further developments, so may developments
10

around that and so on and we therefore – the availability of
t h i s g r o u p t o b e a b l e t o g o t h r o u g h t o , y o u k n o w, a r o u n d
through the whole set of issues as identified and complete
them got affected to some extent.

Save to say that, for

instance, in the area of some human resources issues,
they were able to advise in terms of how to deal with some
of those particular matters, for an example.
But the issue of the matters at Crime Intelligence
and the perpetual suspension of Mr Nduli, they never got
around to dealing with it.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:
have

been

the

N o w, i f u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t l y, y o u w o u l d

person

responsible

for

directing

which

issues they should investigate and which issues not of the
burning issues.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I h a d i d e n t i f i e d t h e m .

ADV HULLEY SC:

So the issues that they did get around
Page 158 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
to, they got around to because you had instructed them to
do it, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , n o t n e c e s s a r i l y.

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

No, I’m asking.

O k a y, w h e n I a m s a y i n g n o t n e c e s s a r i l y, I

think your formulation may not be correct there.

These

people are assembled, we having identified the issues, that
giving the terms of reference to look into those particular
matters and so on and they started their work.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s p u t t h e q u e s t i o n t h i s w a y.

Out of the issues that you had identified as issues that
they should attempt to – or did you list them according to
priority to say this is the most urgent one, this is the
second most urgent one or you just identified the issues
and left it to them, how they dealt with them?
MR NHLEKO:

In respect of, for an example, the secure in

comfort, yes, because there were timelines also in terms of
the resolution of parliament.
matter
20

is

quite

urgent

we

Ye s , I d i d s a y, y o u k n o w, t h i s
need

to

respond

to

these

particular issues and satisfy the resolution by parliament.
But it is also possible that I – and I think it is
possible that I also spoke to them around the issue of the
renditions particularly because they were queries that were
thrown at me at a public level around the question of the
r e n d i t i o n s r e p o r t a n d w h y, a s M i n i s t e r, I w a s n o t a c t i n g .
Page 159 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
So they also did it to focus on that.
CHAIRPERSON:

So, as you can recall, it is those two

issues that you might have said were urgent?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , I t h i n k s o . I t h i n k s o .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

If I understand you correctly are you

saying that there were issues that they were required to
deal with but never ultimately got around to dealing with?
MR NHLEKO:
10

Of course.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And in respect of Mr Richard Nduli,

one of the Crime Intelligence concerns, was that one of the
issues that they were required to address but never got
around to addressing?
MR NHLEKO:
ADV

HULLEY

C e r t a i n l y.
SC:

And

did

they

conduct

any

investigations and the investigation ultimately fizzled out
or did they not get into it at all?
MR NHLEKO:

There were some collection of documents

here and there and so on but it was not a complete
20

exercise.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s .

B u t u l t i m a t e l y, t h e y d i d n o t

complete their work.
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, they did not.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And what I was asking earlier on is

whether the perpetual suspension of Mr Richard Nduli was
Page 160 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ever addressed during your tenure either by you personally
– w h e n I s a y y o u p e r s o n a l l y, I m e a n u n d e r y o u r w a t c h o r,
a l t e r n a t i v e l y, t h a t h a d b e e n g i v e n t o t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p .
Now we know the reference group did not deal with it so
then the question is whether you addressed it at all?
MR NHLEKO:

No, it was never addressed.

For me to

undress it, the reference group needed to do some indepth kind of work in that area so that I could have a
complete set of issues to deal with at my disposal.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

I see.

A n d , i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, M r

Nduli, he had been on suspension at the time when you
entered into office in May of 2014, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

I do not think so.

When I got there he had

already been on suspension.
ADV

HULLEY

SC:

S o r r y,

had

already

been

on

…[intervenes]
MR NHLEKO:

No, I am saying when I got there in May

2014 he was already on suspension.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

I see. And the reference group did not

get around to it and you did not manage to get around to it
yourself. How did Mr Nduli, as far as you were aware, how
did he end up leaving the service?
MR NHLEKO:

I d o n o t k n o w, I m e a n , h e m u s t h a v e l e f t

the service when I was no longer there.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I see.

So throughout the period of

Page 161 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
your tenure Mr Nduli was not disciplined or subjected to a
disciplinary enquiry?
MR NHLEKO:

No.

ADV HULLEY SC: Now let us get to the …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , a s f a r a s y o u c a n r e m e m b e r, w a s

Mr Nduli on suspension from work throughout your term of
Minister of Police from 2014 to whatever time you left that
portfolio?
MR NHLEKO:
10

Ye s , I t h i n k t h r o u g h o u t , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Would you not have – or who

would have been the right authority to deal with these
suspensions or deal with the charges because you did say
e a r l i e r o n t h a t , i f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c t l y, t h e i d e a t h a t
somebody

in

the

public

services

or

anywhere

actually

should be on suspension for too long is just not on.

Who

would have been the right person to deal with the question,
was it you, of if a suspension is taking too long, what are
the decisions to be made or what is it that needs to be –
what decisions need to be made in order to bring finality to
20

a suspension?
MR NHLEKO:

I think it would have been the National

Commissioner at the time around those issues but it is just
that I also cannot recall in full detail in terms of what
essentially were the fuller some of happening around, you
k n o w, a n d p e r t a i n i n g t o M r N d u l i , e x c e p t t h a t f o r m e , I w a s
Page 162 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
–

I

never

had

clarity

in

terms

of

o k a y,

so

he

is

on

suspension, why is he on suspension, what are the issues
that are being dealt with there and how they are being
dealt with and so on.

S o i t w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t , y o u k n o w,

we really never got around to deal with.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, Mr Hulley and Mr Nhleko and of

course, Mr Mokhari, if it’s not an area in regard to which
we were going to look at, we may have not – we might not
have to deal with it but, I mean, Mr Nduli’s suspension was
10

in the public domain for a long time and we have got the
former Minister of Police here who could deal with that, but
that is if, in terms of the arrangement, it falls within what
he would be asked about if it does not – it may be that he
might have to be asked to come when he is prepared to
d e a l w i t h i t , i f n e c e s s a r y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Sure.

CHAIRPERSON:

But I would have liked to know why

s o m e b o d y l i k e t h a t , y o u k n o w, w a s s u s p e n d e d f o r s u c h a
long time but I think Mr Mokhari has got his mic on.
20

Do

you want to say something, Mr Mokhari?
ADV MOKHARI SC:

Ye s , i n d e e d , C h a i r, I w a n t e d t o s a y

exactly what you are saying that issues pertaining to Nduli
are not issues that Mr Nhleko has been implicated by
a n y b o d y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.
Page 163 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

In respect of that.

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

So it was just really coming as a

s u r p r i s e , t h a t i s w h y h e i s t r y i n g t o r e l y o n h i s m e m o r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o , t h a t i s f i n e .

ADV MOKHARI SC:

It is not something that he prepared

h i m s e l f f o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
10

Nor to even visit the documentation

t o r e f r e s h h i s m e m o r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

No, no, that is fine, ja.

ADV MOKHARI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you.

No, it is not …[intervenes]
T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
Ja.
N o , I j u s t w a n t e d t o g e t c l a r i t y.

Mr

Nhleko raised it in his affidavit and It was something that I
20

thought I should deal with.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y.
But I want to get onto the – some of

the topics that …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Of course, it also arises he said it was

one of the issues he had asked the reference group to look
Page 164 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
at.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Indeed.
So I think that is where it comes from

and then you then ask the questions which issues were
they able to deal with and it looks like they did not deal
with his to completion, at least. And that is what gave rise
to the question.

But, of course, the question which one

can ask simply arising out of that and anything that you
m i g h t n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t r e m e m b e r, y o u m a y
10

say so, is being the Minister of Police and having identified
Mr Nduli’s Richard Nduli’s suspension as an issue that I do
not know if Mr Hulley referred to as once for the burning
issues, I do not know whether you used the term.
ADV HULLEY SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
It just seems strange to me that for the

whole term the suspension should continue and you do not
know exactly what is going on about why is this suspension
taking

so

long.

I

am

just

mentioning

that

you

had

identified it as an issue which needed to be attended and
20

one – and I do not know if your term as Minister of Police
took five years, which would be quite some time.

Yo u m a y

be able to say something, you might not, but I am just
s a y i n g o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t a s M i n i s t e r, j u s t a s y o u h a d
identified the issue as an important issue to be attended
to, if this group was not able to attend to it you would find
Page 165 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a way to make sure you are informed as to why is this
suspension of this man taking so long, why is he not facing
a d i s c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g s o t h a t t h e r e i s f i n a l i t y, w h a t i s g o i n g
on?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I a c c e p t t h a t v i e w, C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , y e s .

Save to say that I really on my part wanted

an area where such issues could be properly processed
before they could come over to me to then activate and so
10

forth.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , n o , n o , t h a t i s f a i r – y e s , t h a t

is quite fair enough.
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, so that is basically what …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a t c a n b e d e a l t w i t h p r o p e r l y.

O k a y, a l r i g h t . M r H u l l e y ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

So just to

move on in terms of the chronology in your affidavit, you
deal next with the Werksm ans’ report and I want to get
some context to that but to do so, we need to go slightly
20

back in time because the Werksmans’ report is 2015 and if
we can just go back to 2014, you come into office in May of
2 0 1 4 . Yo u a p p o i n t t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p b y t h e 1 O c t o b e r, i f
I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y, y o u c a l l a m e e t i n g w i t h M s P h i y e g a w h o
is the National Commissioner and you inform her of your
decision to appoint the reference group.
Page 166 of 231

The impression

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
reading your affidavit, the impression that I get from your
affidavit is that you took the

decision to appoint that

reference group, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And the further impression I get from

reading her affidavit is that that decision to appoint the
reference group was not taken in consultation with the
National Commissioner or the top management, is that
correct?
10

MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , i t w a s n o t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

So by the time they learnt of the

appointment of this reference group, that was a decision
that

you

had

already

taken

previously

and

you

then

informed them, you say on the 1 October of the decision
that had taken, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

That is very correct.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now the – so when the decision was

taken to establish this reference group, that decision was
obviously taken sometime before the recruitment drive took
20

place, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h a t ’ s c o r r e c t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And whoever you – and you cannot

recall now who you had spoken to, to identify the specific
people that you thought would have the relevant skills but
you would have spoken to certain people that you thought
Page 167 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
could identify the people with the requisite skills.
MR NHLEKO:

I am sure I spoke to the different people

out there.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d , b u t a s y o u s i t h e r e r i g h t n o w, y o u

cannot say who those people or person was?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , I c a n n o t r e c a l l , y o u k n o w, w h o s e t h o s e

people were and what the discussions were in relation to
some of the individuals as contained in the profile for the
reference group.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

Sure.

So they then set about - the

reference group was appointed first – one of the first tasks
t h a t t h e y p e r f o r m e d , i n f a c t a l m o s t i m m e d i a t e l y, w a s t o g o
about interviewing the members of IPID in respect of the
w o r k t h a t t h e y h a d o n e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e r e n d i t i o n m a t t e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Look, I would not say that was the first

t h i n g , y o u k n o w, t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t
they did at more or less the same time and so on.

As I

said that they had broken up into different sort of focus,
areas as well in relation to the work that I had assigned to
20

them.

So indeed they also dealt with the question of the

renditions.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s .

Now they went to meet, if I

understand correctly from the evidence of Mr McBride and
Mr Sesoko and Mr Kuba.

They went to go and meet with

the – the reference group went to meet with Mr McBride at
Page 168 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t h e I P I D o f f i c e s t o m a k e e n q u i r i e s i n t o t h e r e n d i t i o n m a t t e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Right, no, that is what I hear was the case.

ADV HULLEY SC:
we

get

into

O k a y.

the

Now at that point in time before

background

investigation,

at

that

point

understanding

of

what

the

because

when

you

came

in

related
time

rendition

into

office

to

their

what
issue
in

was
was

May

of

old
your
about
2014,

according to Mr McBride and Mr Sesoko and Mr Kuba,
there was a report that had been compiled by them.
10

S o r r y,

that had been compiled by IPID signed by Mr Kuba which
was dated the 18 March 2014.

In that report they came to

the conclusion or the authors of the report came to the
conclusion that there was nothing to implicate General
Dramat and General Sibiya.
MR NHLEKO:

Look, the sequence is such that – I think I

w a s d e a l i n g w i t h t h e q u e s t i o n o f t h e c r i m e s t a t i s t i c s , C h a i r,
i n S e p t e m b e r, w e h a d j u s t r e l e a s e d t h e m a n d t h e f e l l o w
who was an anchor there, I think it is an SABC station,
t h e n t h r o u g h t h i s i s s u e o f t h e – o f w h y, a s M i n i s t e r, I w a s
20

not taking steps against General Dramat, General Sibiya
a n d o t h e r s a n d s o o n a s p e r t h e I P I D r e p o r t , y o u k n o w,
because it was a just a sudden thing that got thrown in, so
I then said to the anchor that look, I was going to follow up
on these issues to check what the situation was and so on
and indeed …[intervenes]
Page 169 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

J a , I t h i n k i t w a s a r o u n d a b o u t S e p t e m b e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Did you say this was now in September?

2014?

Ja, 2014, when I have just – after releasing

the crime statistics.

But remember that, of course, there

was public awareness on the issue, okay?

The only thing

that I had – that when O’Sullivan cited is this question of
the

report

of

the

22

January

2010

r e m e m b e r, i t i s s o m e w h e r e t h e r e .
10

or

2 0 11 ,

I

cannot

Now – so it became –

when the reference group started their work it became an
area of focus to then say but there are two reports and
these two reports is one of General – is one of the 18th,
they com e to different conclusions but in the main the body
is either the same or more or less the same and in fact the
first report by the reference group identified that.

And

then, of course, alluded to the transgressions that were
committed in the process of the legal rendition of the
Zimbabwean Nationals.
And on the basis of that I then said look, I hear
20

w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p r e p o r t , y o u k n o w,
I appreciated that they had done some work there but I
a l s o f e l t , H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e e d f o r
further

work,

what

actually

happened

and

how

what

happened happened.
So it was important to establish that and for me, the
Page 170 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
point to be established was why you had two reports,
okay?

And therefore, if you deal with that question or why

you had two reports, you must then take a step back and
the step back is, who are the authors of the report and
therefore, they needed to be engaged, they themselves, on
the discrepancies as identified, and so on.
And therefore, for me, that is how the issue of
appointing Werksmans comes in, arising out of this report
by the reference group to then say no, there is further work
10

that needs to be done here. So …[intervenes]
ADV HULLEY SC:

Do you mind if I just take a step back

before we get to the Werksm ans – we are working way up
chronologically to the Werksm ans’ report.
So the reference group had identified that there
were two reports and when we talk about the two reports
we are talking about the two IPID reports, one which was
dated the 22 January of 2014 and the second which was
dated the 18 March of 2014.

Yo u m a y n o t k n o w t h a t b u t

you know that there were two reports.
20

MR NHLEKO:

Right.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now the first question is, where did the

reference group find out about these two reports?

That is

the first question.
MR NHLEKO:

Where did they …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe let me ask what may be a prior
Page 171 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
question.

Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t w h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d b y a n

SABC anchor in an interview it was somewhere around
September 2014, but the one report was dated 22 January
2014, the other one was March.

At what stage did you

yourself become aware of the two reports?

Wa s i t o n l y

after the reference group raised the issue with you or you
were aware that there were two reports.

Maybe you might

have read them or you might not have read them but might
not have made – picked up anything of serious concern.
10

MR NHLEKO:

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e s e q u e n c e , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

Ja, in terms of …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Whether what went before or after the

reference group.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , C h a i r.

I really cannot remember the

sequence.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t , n o t h a t i s f i n e , I j u s t

thought it might be important to know first how soon after
these reports were released you may have become aware
20

of their existence.
MR NHLEKO:

H’m h’m.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y.
T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

So just going

back a little bit, we know as a fact that there were these
two reports.

L i k e I s a y, o n e d a t e d 2 2 J a n u a r y, o n e d a t e d
Page 172 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
18 March 2014.

Yo u h a d b e e n o n t h e S A B C s h o w w h e r e

s o m e b o d y, o n e o f t h e t a l k s h o w – t h e h o s t h a d a s k e d y o u a
question about the rendition, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

H’m.

ADV HULLEY SC:

The host did not suggest that there

was a question of two reports or anything like that, did he?
I am asking.
MR NHLEKO:

No, he did not except that he alluded to an

IPID report with the recommendations that General Dramat,
10

General

Sibiya

and

others

were

to

be

criminally

prosecuted.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Now when you then appointed – and I

am trying to understand the sequence, you appointed the
reference

group

to

raise

this

issue

with

IPID,

is

that

correct, to investigate the issue and to go to IPID.
MR NHLEKO:

To i n v e s t i g a t e , y e s .

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

And to deal with it through IPID.

To i n v e s t i g a t e a s t o h o w c o m e w e h a d t w o

reports there.
20

ADV

HULLEY

SC:

O k a y.

What

I

am

trying

to

…[intervenes]
MR NHLEKO:

And how they investigated, you left it to

them. No – yes, insofar as the reference group…
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, the reference group, ja.

Ye s , y e s , I l e f t i t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
Page 173 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

How they went about investigating.
Ye s , h o w t h e y w e n t a b o u t i t , r e a l l y i t w a s

really up to them.
gone

through

It is only with regards to when having

the

reference

group

report

that

then

Werksm ans had to be guided by a particular set of term s of
reference to then look into this specific issues as arising
out of the reference group report.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, I t h i n k M r H u l l e y a t t h i s s t a g e

is interested in knowing what you asked the reference
10

group to do about it, ja.

Yo u s a i d t h e y m u s t i n v e s t i g a t e i t ,

is that right?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

But you didn’t go into details as to

whether they speak to IPID or not or how they investigate
this?
MR NHLEKO:

No it was really up to them in terms of you

know the investigative work there.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV
20

HULLEY

O h , o k a y. M r H u l l e y ?
SC:

Thank

you

Mr

C h a i r.

Just

to

understand at that stage where the reference group had
been given the instruction or the go ahead to investigate
how these two reports had arisen you had not called upon
IPID,

or

had

you

called

upon

IPID

to

give

you

an

explanation as to [a] whether there were two reports, and
[b] how that came about?
Page 174 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

I am not sure whether I did call IPID about

the, about that, it is possible perhaps that I did, I don’t
k n o w, i t i s a l s o p o s s i b l e t h a t I m a y n o t h a v e d o n e s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I can say that for m e when Mr

McBride and the other IPID witnesses were giving evidence
that was one of the things that I seemed to take note that
none of them said the Minister asked us or asked the
director or asked Mr McBride why are there two reports or
that there was anybody that contacted them and said we
10

have been asked by the Minister to find out why are there
two reports, so that was one of the things that I noticed
they didn’t say in their evidence, but you are saying that
you also, you can’t remember whether you conducted them
or not?
MR NHLEKO:

I really cannot.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Would it be fair to say that you as the

Minister you – given that this was one of the burning
issues relating to the rendition itself of that had been
20

identified in your investigations before you got to the SABC
house sometime in September of 2014, this issue of the
rendition

had

already

been

identified

when

you

were

conducting your initial assessments and meetings with the
top management of SAPS.
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, I suppose it would be fair maybe to
Page 175 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
assume that, I mean precisely because in respect of that
and maybe other issues as well, they were already in the
public domain that these are the things that happened.
Ja, I think it could have been the case.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Now because the – if I understand your

t e s t i m o n y c o r r e c t l y, y o u ’ r e s a y i n g t h a t i t w a s o n l y p u r s u a n t
t o t h e d i s c u s s i o n w i t h t h e Ta l k S h o w h o s t f r o m t h e S A B C
sometime

in

investigating
10

September
or

looking

that
into

you
this

decided
issue?

to
Or

start
do

I

misunderstand your testimony?
MR NHLEKO:

I am not sure whether you do ...[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l a s I – I a m s o r r y, a s I u n d e r s t a n d

t h e p o s i t i o n t h e r e a r e t w o i s s u e s M r H u l l e y, o n e i s t h e
rendition issue, that’s the general one and then arising out
of the rendition issue there are the two reports.
As I understand it the SABC anchor was aware of
either both or one of the reports at least, and she or he
said why are not doing anything about this rendition issue,
is that right?
20

MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I

know whether we’re talking about the reports or the actual
rendition.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

Now would it – as

the Minister of the police at that point in time there was a
Page 176 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
concern obviously on your part about the rendition issue,
and there may have been a concern on your part about the
two reports.
MR NHLEKO:

Correct.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t , a t t h a t s t a g e

you’re not sure about whether there were two reports, the
existence or so forth, that still needs to be – or that was
still something that needed to be investigated, but as far
as
10

the

rendition

is

concerned

at

that

stage

now

in

September of 2014, when this issue arose it was your
understanding

that

there

–

that

General

Dramat

and

General Sibiya had been implicated and this was a matter
that had been in the public domain before then, do I
understand that correctly?
MR NHLEKO:

I don’t think I had that much before

September 2014, in terms of you know I know that in
general there has been publications that wrote about the
issue of renditions and statements that were issued then
before I came in, in May and so on, I know that.
20

Now the question of the SABC anchor he spoke
s p e c i f i c a l l y t o , a n d i n f a c t h e h a d a c o p y, w h i c h n e c e s s a r i l y
I did not take out of his hands and he read a specific sort
of recommendation and that recommendation was about
General Dramat, General Sibiya, I don’t know who else,
who had to be criminally charged and so on, and therefore
Page 177 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
he posed this question and said but you are the Minister of
Police and why are you not doing anything about these
issues.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And was a copy of the report made

available to you and the report that I am imagining you’re
referring to before we continue, I am imagining that you
are referring to the report that had been compiled by IPID?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s i t w a s a n I P I D r e p o r t t h a t h e h a d .

ADV HULLEY SC:
10

Ve r y w e l l , a n d d i d h e m a k e a c o p y o f

the report available to you?
MR NHLEKO:

No he didn’t.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now did you – so you’re not sure

w h e t h e r y o u c a l l e d u p o n I P I D t o c h a t a b o u t t h e m a t t e r, t o
provide you with a copy of the report, or to give you an
explanation as to what the current state of affairs was.
MR NHLEKO:

No I am not sure whether I did that.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Okay so then what we do know is form

your affidavit and from the events that unfolded out of that
is that this reference group then went in and started to
20

i n v e s t i g a t e t h e m a t t e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Right.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now the reference group ultimately

would have come back to you and reported to you on the
question of the rendition matter and the two reports, is that
correct?
Page 178 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s t h e y d i d .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now in relation to the – or let me ask

you this, were these two issues dealt with in the same
discussion or document with you or were they dealt with in
separate documents or discussions.

Do you follow?

So

we’ve got the issue about the reference group, sorry the
issue about the rendition on the one hand and the issue
about the rendition on the one hand and the issue about
the two reports.
10

Now the reference group reported back to

you, let me ask you firstly was the report back in a written
document or was the report back verbally or was it both?
MR NHLEKO:

They issued the written report and I am not

sure whether in your bundles they do have this report.
They issued a report on – dated the 22nd of November
2 0 1 4 , a n d t h a t i s t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p , o k a y, i n w h i c h t h e y
deal with the whole set of matters in terms of what they
had discovered in relation to the IPID investigation report.
I t g o e s i n t o s o m e l i t t l e b i t o f d e t a i l a n d s o i t g o e s n o w, u p
until
20

they

conducted

interviews

with

people

that

were

somewhat cited in those particular reports and so on.
Now the – they then came to – I am trying to figure
o u t , i n t e r m s o f w h e r e d o t h e y, b e c a u s e t h e y d o t a l k a b o u t
the two reports, for an example, and then they also dealt
with matters of law insofar as the issue of the renditions
was concerned.
Page 179 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, i s t h a t a r e p o r t t h a t i s i n t h e

bundle or not?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Mr Chair the report is in the bundle,

and it will be – if we could consider it is part of the bundle
of

documents

that

was

handed

up

by

Mr

Moshleko’s

representatives, it appears at page 3445.
CHAIRPERSON:

3445?

ADV HULLEY SC:

I am just looking to see if it has got an

e x h i b i t n u m b e r. I b e l i e v e w e j u s t a b o u t m i s s e d i t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I ’ v e g o t i t .

We have not given it an

exhibit number?
ADV HULLEY SC:

The last one was Y8SS so this one Mr

C h a i r s h o u l d b e Y 8 T T.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

HULLEY

The ...[intervenes]

SC:

But

if

you

go

back

two

pages

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

The report addressed to the Minister of

Police from the reference group dated 22 November 2014
on
20

the

subject

of

Zimbabwean

National

Renditions

a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 3 4 4 5 w i l l b e a d m i t t e d a s e x h i b i t Y 8 T T.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

So this is the document Mr Nhleko that

you are referring to?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s t h a t i s t h e d o c u m e n t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o
Page 180 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
and

specifically

the

recommendations

as

contained

on

paragraph 53.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Paragraph 53?

Ja, of that very same report.

I don’t know

whether you are finding it.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Page 3460.

Okay if you can – there’s

a bundle of document s which is Y8, and it’s Bundle

H, this

would be in Bundle H.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I may have missed what you said Mr

H u l l e y, I w a s s t i l l l o o k i n g a t p a r a g r a p h 5 3 a t p a g e 3 4 6 0 , i s
that where we are?
ADV HULLEY SC:

That is where we are at the moment Mr

C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

J a , o k a y, y e s M r N h l e k o ?
T h e y m a d e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s , o k a y, t h e y

made the following recommendations on paragraph 53.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR NHLEKO:

It is recommended that the Minister of

Police should consider provisionally suspending Lt General
20

Dramat as the National Head of the Directorate for Priority
Crimes and investigation pending investigations on few
outstanding aspects and the composition and constituting
of an enquiry into his fitness to hold office on the following
basis.
under

That Lt General Dram at and DP CI Officers acting
his

management

and

supervision

Page 181 of 231

and/or

control

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
and/or guidance and on instructions undermined ...
1. Undermined the legislative authority of the Minister of
Justice and the South African Judiciary to make a
determination and adjudication on the extradition of
the Zimbabwean Nationals who were suspected of
murder

and

robbery

committed

in

Zimbabwe

by

unlawfully deporting the Zimbabweans.
2. That DPCI failed to comply with the South African
Mutual Legal Assistance Act and Extradition Act of
10

1 9 6 2 , A c t 6 7 o f 1 9 6 2 , s o r r y, r e a d w i t h s u c h p r o t o c o l s
and mutual legal assistance on criminal matters and
extradition.
3. Bringing the international image of the Republic of
South
sundry

Africa

into

protocols

assistance

and

disrepute
on

the

by

extradition,
United

contravening
mutual

Nations

and

the
legal

Convention

on

torture by being co-perpetrators and accomplice on
torture

and

murder

of

Zimbabwean

nationals

com mitted by DP CI officers and Zimbabwean Police.
20

4. Committing

criminal

law

offences

including

kidnapping, defeating the ends of justice, forgery and
fraud.
5. As a co-conspirator and accomplice in the commission
of the said Com mon Law offences they misled the
Minister of Police and Parliament by stating that the
Page 182 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Department of Home Affairs deported the Zimbabwean
Nationals well knowing that it was the DPCI under his
management,

which

rendition

the

Zimbabwean

nationals for the alleged criminal offences.
6. Bringing the international image of the Republic into
disrepute

by

executing

disguised

the

extradition

unlawful
and

deportations,

enforced

human

disappearances.
The Minister of Police should consider issuing the directive
10

in terms of Section 207[2] of the Constitution to the DPCI
head and/or National Commissioner that Major General
Sibiya and Lt Colonel Malulege be suspended pending
internal

investigations

on

their

involvement

in

the

renditions, contraventions of certain protocols and National
Legislation on Extraditions, mutual legal assistance and
com mon law offences of kidnapping, defeating the ends of
j u s t i c e a n d f r a u d a n d f o r g e r y.
The

source

documents

are

as

follows;

IPID

Progress Report, the CI Report to the Minister in response
20

to Parliamentary questions, protocols on extraditions and
Mutual

Legal

extradition

Assistance

and

mutual

Acts,
legal

national
assistance

legislation
on

on

criminal

matters, as well as the UN Convention on torture.
So those in summary with the recommendations by
the reference group, but somewhere in the body of this
Page 183 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
very same report that they brought to my attention, they
alluded to the question of the two reports.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

Here they specifically dealt with what it is

that needed to be done according to them in relation to the
involvement of DPCI in the rendition of the Zimbabweans.
ADV HULLEY SC:

So if I understand you correctly what

you’re saying is that the reference group had the two
reports, they had the two reports before they – when they
10

made this decision, is that what you’re saying.

The two

IPID reports.
MR NHLEKO:

Ja, they pointed out that there is the

question of the two IPID reports.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And we will go through that in a

moment, but if I also understand you correctly you say that
the – this particular document which had been produced by
the Reference Group this document had been available to
you – available for your consideration. Is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:
20

Ye s i t w a s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now what I am trying to understand is

there’s two reports and I have no doubt that you have seen
the two reports, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s I h a v e .

ADV HULLEY SC:

The first report as you have said

recommended that there should be a prosecution of Mr – or
Page 184 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
General Dramat and General Sibiya whereas the second
the report cam e to a different conclusion, and that different
conclusion specifically was that there should be – that they
were not – they could not be implicated in the various
crimes that the first report had identified, is that correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

What – the first concern or issue that I

want to discuss is was this confidential report that had
been
10

compiled

by

the

reference

group,

they

were

reviewing, effectively reviewing the work of IPID is that
correct?
MR NHLEKO:

In what respect, I don’t think so.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Well IPID had com e, IPID was the body

that was established in terms of the constitution and in
terms of the legislation, to investigate criminal conduct
which m ay have been committed by police officers, is that
correct.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:
20

MR NHLEKO:

Is that your understanding sir?

Right.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And IPID had in fact done so, is that

correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And they produced two reports, is that

right?
Page 185 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

T h e y p r o d u c e d o n e r e p o r t s i r.

ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

They produced one report?

They produced one report and that report is

the report of the 22nd.
ADV HULLEY SC:

But at this point in time the – you

hadn’t yet established whether there was one or two, your
understanding based upon something you’ve read in this
document

was

that

there

in

fact

two

reports,

do

I

understand that correctly?
10

MR NHLEKO:

From this report yes, they then identified

t h a t , e s s e n t i a l l y, t h e r e w e r e t w o r e p o r t s t h a t – o f t h e
investigation that were by the same institution with
different conclusions.
ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y, n o w, l e t ’ s d e a l w i t h t h e t w o

different scenarios.

Let’s take scenario one which is, that

there’s one report.

On scenario one, there’s one report,

what is the – what should now be done about the existence
of this one report, that report recommends that General
Sibiya and General Dramat, amongst others, should be
20

prosecuted, what should be done about that?
MR NHLEKO:

Look at the conclusion of that report my

understanding

is

transpired,

that

is

that

–

they

and
then

i t ’s

also

reported

something
or

referred

that
that

r e p o r t , t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s , a n d t h a t i s , o f c o u r s e , w h a t o u g h t
Page 186 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
to have happened?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w, t h e r e ’ s – i f t h a t o u g h t t o h a v e

happened and hasn’t happened, for argument sake, hasn’t
happened what is it the reference group is doing in relation
to the rendition issue because that issue, if I understand it
c o r r e c t l y, h a s a l r e a d y b e e n d e a l t w i t h o n s c e n a r i o o n e b y
the – by IPID.
MR NHLEKO:
10

Look I think the reference group, angled

into the issue in relation to the allegation of the two
reports

because

they

also

then

needed

to

advise

the

Minister in terms of, indeed, the two reports and if so,
exactly what is the detail around there, the question of the
two reports and so on but that had nothing to do with them
o r m y s e l f t r y i n g t o r e v i e w, f o r i n s t a n c e , t h e I P I D r e p o r t , i t
had everything to do with the question of, yes, there are
two reports and indeed, rendition occurred and these were
the

circumstances

under

which,

perhaps,

allegedly

it

occurred.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Can I – don’t forget your next question

Mr Hulley can I – yes, I think I’ve given up Mr Nhleko
you’re like looking at that side.

Well I know that it’s

because the questions come from that side.
MR NHLEKO:

S o r r y, C h a i r, m y a p o l o g i e s .

CHAI RPERSO N: Let’s take a few steps back what are the
Page 187 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
reporting, what were the reporting lines in relation to any
work done by IPID, did the – we know that the top position
a t I P I D w o u l d b e t h e E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, o r i f t h e r e i s n o
E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r t h e A c t i n g E x e c u t i v e D i r e c t o r, w h o d i d
the Executive Director of IPID report to?

Did he or she

report to the Minister of Police or was there somebody else
that they reported to?
MR NHLEKO:

The Executive Director…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:
10

I know there is the question of their

independence as well, so that – I just want to establish the
– how come any report from them comes to you and I
guess the starting point is, do they report to you, would the
Executive Director submit reports to you, what exactly was
the position?
MR NHLEKO:

N o , t h e r e p o r t i n g l i n e s w e r e v e r y c l e a r, I ’ m

s a y i n g t h e r e p o r t i n g l i n e s w e r e v e r y c l e a r, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ja.

The reporting lines of an Executive Director

of IPID there’s a direct line to the Minister of Police.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y, o k a y.
N o w, a s a r e s u l t o f w h i c h , f o r i n s t a n c e

there are regular sort of reports and/or issues of approval
that get referred to the Minister to approve in terms of
investigative powers for IPID and SARS and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:

So, would it, therefore, be correct to say
Page 188 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
that from time to time as the Minister of Police you would
get reports from IPID?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

As to the work that they were doing?
E x a c t l y, i n c l u d i n g t h e s u m m a r y o f r e p o r t s

for an example referred for prosecution and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y. S o i f t h e r e w e r e m a t t e r s t h a t

t h e y w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o t h e N PA f o r p r o s e c u t i o n t h e y w o u l d
make sure that you know about those, in terms of reports?
10

MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , i n t e r m s o f t h e – w h e t h e r i t w a s

w e e k l y o r o t h e r w i s e , b u t i t w a s q u i t e r e g u l a r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

The reports?

The reporting arrangement, yes.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t a n d t h i s k i n d o f r e p o r t t h a t
we’re talking about would have been one of the normal
reports that would come to you or not really?
MR NHLEKO:

I suppose so, but I think that we should

t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t , C h a i r, t h a t w h e n I c a m e i n t h e r e w e r e a
number of other processes that had taken place around
20

this, for instance, if you peruse briefly on documents,
you’ll see that long before I came in, round about 2012 or
so,

the

Secretariat

had

compiled

a

report

around

this

issue…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Of rendition?
Ye s , o f r e n d i t i o n a n d r e f e r r e d i t t o t h e
Page 189 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
M i n i s t e r, t h e n m y p r e d e c e s s o r a n d s o f o r t h .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O h o k a y.

And I think in that report it pointed to the –

I think the Minister then, my predecessor needed to decide
whether the report was to be referred to Police Agency
such as DPCI or something or IPID.

I think, he must have

decided that the matter needed to be dealt with by IPID
and that’s how it landed there.
COMMISSIONER:
10

So I’m saying – already there had been

that kind of work and interaction around the question of the
renditions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

S o , w h e n I c a m e i n , y o u k n o w, I ’ m a l m o s t

mid-stream because there are other things that had taken
place.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HULLEY SC:

O k a y, a l r i g h t , M r H u l l e y ?
Thank you Mr Chairman.

So, the IPID

had already conducted that investigation and they – it
r e s u l t e d , y o u s a y, i n o n e r e p o r t ?
20

They contend, of course,

Mr McBride, Mr Sesoko and Mr Kuba contend that there
was an initial – well Mr McBride and Mr Sesoko say they
know nothing about the first report, the 22 January report,
they say they were aware of the subsequent report which
was the 18 March report but Mr Kuba signed the first
report, which was the 22 January report.
Page 190 of 231

N o w, i n s o f a r a s

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t h a t – l i k e I s a y, i n s o f a r a s t h e f i r s t r e p o r t i s c o n c e r n e d ,
the 22 January report, and we’ve used the language of the
first report and perhaps let’s operate on that basis for
present purposes.

That report, as you understood it, and

as you testified a moment ago, that was the only report, it
was the report, the second report you say was not – well I
imagine you say it wasn’t a genuine report?
MR NHLEKO:

The general report…[intervenes].

ADV HULLEY SC:
10

N o g e n u i n e n o t J a n u a r y, g e n u i n e

report.
MR NHLEKO:

O h o k a y, n o I ’ m s a y i n g t h a t p r e c i s e l y o n

the strength of the investigation that we conducted then
through Werksmans.

N o w, t h e a s s e r t i o n i s m a d e f o r a n

example, that – and I think as and when we delve into the
detail of the Werksmans reports and the interviews that
w e r e c o n d u c t e d w e w i l l c l e a r l y s e e t h a t , y o u k n o w, a t s o m e
point there is admission to knowledge of the existence of
the 22nd of January report by Mr McBride at some point, he
did not know about that and so and so but there is that
20

element into that but also what has been advanced was
that the, for instance of the latest sort of articulations that
I’ve heard was that the 22nd January report was a draft
report. Now – which in itself is also not true because Kuba
who was lead investigator at that time, who started long
before Mr McBride assumed this work and I coming in later
Page 191 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
in 2014. In October 2013 he produced one draft report
followed by another draft report in November and they were
s p e c i f i c a l l y r e f e r r e d t o a s s u c h . N o w, … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV HULLEY SC:

Sorry if you don’t mind, and we’re

getting back to this but I think maybe we’re talking at
cross-purposes.
you’re

talking

I understand the point you making but
about

what

was

discovered

after

the

Werksm ans report was produced, I’m going back before
that, in other words I’m dealing with the time – at the time
10

that the reference group had been appointed, I’m dealing
with that point in time.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

So my point is that when the reference

group had been established and the reference group had
started to investigate the issue, at that point in time there
was certainly – it was understood at best, that there was,
e i t h e r, o n e r e p o r t o r t h a t t h e r e w e r e t w o r e p o r t s .

Yo u r

understanding, if I understand correctly was that there, in
fact, were two reports that were available to the reference
20

group, do I understand that correctly?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w, w i t h t h e t w o – g i v e n t h a t t h e r e

were two reports that were available, one of which would
h a v e c o n f l i c t e d w i t h t h e o t h e r, a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y,
in other words they cam e to different conclusions.
Page 192 of 231

We’ve

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
looked at the scenario of what would happen if there was
one report in other words the first report and that first
r e p o r t h a d t o g o o f f t o t h e N PA a s y o u c o r r e c t l y p o i n t e d
out.

T h e f i r s t r e p o r t h a d , i n f a c t , b e e n r e f e r r e d t o t h e N PA

as you understood it and yet nothing has happened as far
a s t h a t ’ s c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e b y S e p t e m b e r, y o u ’ r e s t i l l
being questioned about this by the SABC, correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:
10

Now on that scenario what is it, as the

M i n i s t e r, w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u d o i n r e l a t i o n t o – o n t h e
understanding

that

there’s

only

the

first

report

that

recommends the prosecution of these two people?
CHAIRPERSON:
question.

Are

I’m sorry Mr Hulley don’t forget your
you

dealing

with

the

stage

after

the

reference group had raised some issue about there being
two reports?
ADV HULLEY SC:

Correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay can I just go a little bit back.

When the reference group raised the issue of there being
20

two

reports,

what

issue

were

they

raising

with

you,

precisely what was it that they were raising with you?
There are two reports and so what?
ADV HULLEY SC:

No, the issue raised by the reference

group was how come you had one report with the body of
i t , y o u k n o w, b y a n d l a r g e , s i m i l a r t o t h e o t h e r o n e b u t w i t h
Page 193 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
a different set of recomm endations, as opposed to the
second one for example.
referred

to

the

So, for an example the first one

implicated

people

as

needed

to

be

prosecuted but then the second one there’s then a different
recommendation that exonerates those particular people
that are implicated in the first report. Now – and therefore,
the

critical

question

was

how

come

you

had

such

a

situation, how did that situation come about.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR

But the two reports have different dates.

NHLEKO:

Ye s ,

they

may

have

different

dates…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

So, at this stage I just want to – I want

you to capture for me, what you understood the issue to be
that the reference group was concerned about and what
issue – what questions you posed to them, whether you
shared their concern.

I m e a n i f y o u c o m e t o m e , y o u s a y,

here are two reports one is dated January the other one is
dated 18 – but there is som e difference between them, the
first thing that comes to my mind is, they are different
20

reports, they have been signed on different dates, let’s go
deeper into the issue, what is the issue?

Whereas if you

g i v e m e t w o r e p o r t s , s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y, d e a l i n g w i t h
t h e s a m e s u b j e c t m a t t e r, t h e n I m i g h t s a y w h a t ’ s g o i n g o n .
So I just want you to capture for me what was conveyed to
me as the issue that they were concerned about, did you
Page 194 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
share their concerns and why did you thing, whatever it
was, was a concern and then move forward from there.
MR NHLEKO:

No Chair I shared a similar concern by the

way…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Let’s finish with what they raised, the

issue they raised and the basis for their concern.
MR NHLEKO:

No their concern was you have two reports

s p e a k i n g t o t h e s a m e s u b j e c t m a t t e r, o n e r e p o r t i s o f t h e
20th – no 22nd January the other one is 18th of March.
10

The

contents, they – look the same, but the recommendations
they are not the same so – and the question was, so how
would you – because I hear the point that the Chair is
saying – is raising, I mean, your point is only applicable,
f o r i n s t a n c e , i n m y v i e w, o n e r e p o r t o n s o m e t h i n g a n d o n e
report on another then two different subject matters and
two different contents and so on but in this instance you
have…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

What I’m saying is, the moment the

reports are signed on different days, that says to m e, there
20

might be a reason for the difference because the one was
on another date the one was on the other date, the one
was on the one date, the other was on another date,
therefore – that’s why I go to the question, what was the
issue they raised, what was the basis for that concern,
then we take it from there?
Page 195 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO:

N o , j a I t h i n k t h e n i n t h a t r e g a r d , C h a i r, i n

terms of what you’ve just said I’m coming to exactly my
position, that position is then clarified further in terms of
the

further

investigative

work

that

needed

to

then

establish, is there a reason or reasons why you would have
these two reports and what inform ed that, okay and that’s
where Werksm ans com es in, you know and we were later
shown the differences between the two reports.

What was

deleted in the first report to constitute what is now being
10

referred to as the second report.
CHAIRPERSON:
an

But before you asked Werksmans to do

investigation

on

it, did

you,

yourself

read

the

two

reports to see whether you might understand why there are
these differences even though the two reports relate to the
same subject matter and most of what is contained in the
reports is the same or did you read it or did you get
s o m e o n e t o d o a n E x e c u t i v e s u m m a r y f o r y o u t o s a y, t h e s e
are the important parts of the two reports?
MR NHLEKO:
20

N o t h e t w o r e p o r t s , C h a i r, w e r e b r o u g h t t o

my attention.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . L e t ’ s t a k e a c o m f o r t b r e a k .

ADV HULLEY SC:

I think the witness needs a comfort

b r e a k C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, well I was going to – I was aware

that we have been going on for some time, I was going to
Page 196 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
say let’s take a comf ort break but obviously I took longer
than – we are at nine minutes to five, we will take the
b r e a k n o w, a c o m f o r t b r e a k , a f t e r t h a t I c e r t a i n l y c a n g o
until six, but maybe I should check whether – I know we
have another witness tomorrow but the witness tomorrow is
supposed to be short I think, let me check whether even
proceeding

tomorrow

morning

is

a

possibility

everybody or whether there is any problem.
ADV MUKHARI:
10

with

Mr Mukhari?

From our side we are available.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e a v a i l a b l e , o k a y, M r H u l l e y y o u

are available I know that and I guess what your counsel is
saying applies to Mr Nhleko?

I t d o e s , i t d o e s , o k a y. T h e n

we must – maybe we will take the short break the maybe
we can go up to six if we haven’t finished then we can
continue tomorrow morning.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, l e t ’ s t a k e a 1 5 m i n u t e b r e a k , w e

will resume at ten past five.
We adjourn.
20

REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Okay let us continue.
C o u l d I m a k e a p o i n t b e f o re w e c o n t i n u e

C h a i r ? O n t w o t h i n g s. I n f a ct I h a v e h a d a r e l o o k a t t h e …
Page 197 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

One second.

t h e a i r c o n d i t i o n e r?

H a s so m e b o d y s w i t c h e d o n

Oh is it a heater?

I do not want to be

unfair to anybody who might be feeling too cold if it does
w a rm

give

us

some

warmth

but

j u st

at

sometimes

it

i n t e rf e re s w i t h . .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e r e co r d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Me h e a r i n g t h e w i t n e s s p r o p e rl y.

But if

t h e r e i s s o m e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 0 : 5 4 ] I kn o w t h e o n e t i m e I s a i d
i t i s m a ki n g m e c o l d b u t so m e b o d y e l s e w a s f e e l i n g t h a t i t
10

w a s m a ki n g t h e p l a c e w a r m . O k a y l e t u s c o n t i n u e .
MR NHLEKO:

T h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h C h a i r p e r s o n .

Yo u w i l l

re c a l l t h a t b e f o r e t h e b re a k I r e f e r re d t o o n e t h i n g a n d t h a t i s
t h a t t h e r e p o rt b y R e f e re n c e G r o u p i n t h e b o d y w h e n I r e a d
through

the

recommendations that

in

the

body they do

m e n t i o n t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o re p o rt s a n d I t h i n k i s
i n c o r r e ct .

F o r t h e re c o r d I t h i n k w e n e e d t o c o rr e ct t h a t .

Because in the body now when I look at this within the body
they do not say that.

H o w e v e r w h a t I c a n co n f i rm i s t h a t

b e ca u s e t h e y b ri e f e d m e a b o u t t h i s r e p o rt y o u k n o w i n t h e
20

o n e o n o n e ki n d o f s e s si o n s a n d so o n b u t i n d e e d t h e y …
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y a b o u t t h i s r e p o rt y o u m e a n

t h e i r r e p o rt ?
M R N H L E K O : T h e i r r e p o rt .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO:

This one.

T h e y b ri e f e d m e a b o u t t h i s r e p o rt .

Page 198 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
They took me through it and then they pointed out that there
i s a n a l l e g a t i o n o f t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o re p o rt s t h a t a r e i n
e xi st e n c e a n d so o n .

And I think it – there is a point that

t h e y s h a r e a l s o e a r l i e r o n i n t h e – i n t h e i r e n g a g e m e n t . Yo u
– I t h i n k y o u w a n t e d so m e cl a r i t y o n a n d I t h i n k i t d o e s t a l k
t o t h a t . B e ca u s e w i t h t h e m t h e o n l y t h i n g I s a i d t o t h e m w a s
there is this question of the rendition that is alleged to have
taken place please look into it.

So it was broad.

And they

d i d t h i s r e p o rt st a rt s o ff w i t h t h e w o r k b y D P C I I t h i n k t h e y
10

re f e r t o t h a t . T h e y a l s o re f e r t o t h e w o r k p a rt i c u l a rl y o f I P I D
a n d t h e K u b a R e p o rt – t h e K u b a R e p o rt a n d s o o n . S o – t h e
– I a p o l o g i se f o r m e n t i o n i n g t h a t i n t h e b o d y t h e r e i s
re f e r e n c e t o t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o re p o rt s – n o t h e r e i s n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: There is not?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

B u t w h a t y o u a re sa y i n g i s t h a t i n

t h e i r v e rb a l b ri e f i n g t o y o u t h e y d i d m e n t i o n .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s t h e y d i d m e n t i o n t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t i n t h e i r w r i t t e n r e p o rt s.
20

M R N H L E K O : N o t i n t h e w ri t t e n t e x t y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja .

Ja.

A n d – a n d a t t h a t st a g e t h e i r

c o n ce r n w a s t h a t t h e r e w e r e t w o d i ff e r e n t r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t h e v e rb a l r e p o rt t h e y g a ve y o u .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
Page 199 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON:

Ve r b a l b ri e f i n g a n d t h e n i n t h e ve r b a l

b r i e f i n g t h e y sa i d w e a r e c o n ce r n e d a b o u t t h e r e b e i n g t o o –
o f t h e r e b e i n g d i ff e r e n t re c o m m e n d a t i o n s i n re g a r d t o t h e
t w o r e p o rt s i n t h e v e r b a l b ri e f i n g ?
MR NHLEKO: They – they said that there is an allegation of
t w o r e p o rt s a n d s p e ci f i c a l l y t h a t t h e o t h e r r e p o rt h a s g o t a
d i ff e r e n t s e t o f r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s. Ye s. We l l – n o t h a t w a s a
m a t t e r t o b e l o o ke d i n t o .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t a s yo u u n d e r st o o d t h e p o si t i o n , t h e y

h a d s e e n t h e t w o re p o rt s a t t h e t i m e t h e y g a v e yo u a ve r b a l
briefing?
MR NHLEKO: I am not sure that they had.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 4 : 1 9 ] .
MR NHLEKO:

I d o n o t k n o w b e c a u se t h e y – t h e y – t h e

matter to me was presented as an allegation of the two
re p o rt s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y.

S o – so w o u l d i t b e c o rr e ct t h e n t o

s a y E x h i b i t Y 8 [ T T ] w h i ch i s t h e r e p o rt t h e y g a v e y o u o n t h e
re n d i t i o n t h a t t h e w ri t t e n re p o rt d o e s n o t d e a l w i t h t h e
e xi st e n c e o f t w o re p o rt s i t j u st d e a l s w i t h t h e i s s u e o f a
re n d i t i o n t h a t i s a l l ?
MR NHLEKO:

No it does not.

What it does it is more of an

a s s e s sm e n t r e p o r t .
Page 200 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR NHLEKO:

T h e w a y i t – t h e w a y yo u l o o k a t i t – a r o u n d

the rendition issue.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l ri g h t .

S o – s o I g e t t h e i m p r e s si o n f r o m

w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t o t h e r t h a n t h e m s a yi n g t o y o u i n
t h e v e r b a l b ri e f i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a l l e g a t i o n o f t h e r e
b e i n g t w o re p o rt s w i t h o n e w i t h re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t h a t a r e
10

d i ff e r e n t f r o m t h e o t h e r.

O t h e r t h a n t h e m s a yi n g t h a t t h e r e

w a s n o t m u c h t h e y t o l d y o u a b o u t t h e se t w o re p o rt s a t t h a t
st a g e , i s t h a t ri g h t ?
MR NHLEKO: No there was not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o t o k a y. A l ri g h t . Yo u c a n t a k e
i t f r o m t h e r e M r H u l l e y.

I j u st w a n t t o s e e h o w t h e i s s u e o f

t h e t w o r e p o rt s m o v e s f r o m p o i n t A u p t o p o i n t w h a t e v e r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u M r C h a i r.

N o w j u st t o –

y o u y o u r se l f h a d n o t s e e n e i t h e r o n e o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s a t
t h e t i m e o f t h i s – o n e o f t h e t w o I P I D r e p o rt s a t t h e t i m e o f
20

t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p ’s R e p o rt ?
MR NHLEKO: I am not sure whether I had.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u – b u t y o u k n e w f r o m w h a t t h e

R e f e r e n c e G r o u p h a d t o l d y o u t h a t t h e r e m a y b e t w o re p o rt s
i n e xi st e n c e .
MR NHLEKO: Right.
Page 201 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O n e r e p o rt w h i c h c a m e t o o n e c o n cl u si o n
a n d a n o t h e r r e p o rt t h a t c a m e – a p p e a r e d t o co m e t o t h e
o p p o si t e c o n cl u si o n .
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Now as far as the – as far as the

R e f e r e n c e G r o u p ’s re p o rt i s c o n c e r n e d t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p
f i l e s a r e p o rt w h i c h i s d a t e d t h e 2 2 N o v e m b e r t h e y p r o vi d e
y o u w i t h t h a t r e p o rt .
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

I t w o u l d b e i m p o rt a n t o f c o u r s e t o l o c a t e

t h e I P I D r e p o rt s t o v e ri f y a t t h a t st a g e w h a t t h e c o n c l u si o n i s
that has been reached by – by IPID.

Wo u l d t h a t b e c o r r e ct

t o sa y ?
M R N H L E K O : I t h i n k yo u a re c o rr e ct .
ADV HULLEY SC: Now …
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y I co m e i n a n d s a y ?

H a vi n g b e e n t o l d

w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d b y t h e R e f e r e n ce G r o u p i n t h e v e r b a l
b r i e f i n g a b o u t a n a l l e g a t i o n o f t w o r e p o rt s.
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
20

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do about that?
MR NHLEKO:
q u e st i o n

of

I t h i n k I m u st h a v e d o n e e n q u i ri e s a b o u t t h e
[ i n d i st i n ct

00:07:34]

allegation

e v e n t u a l l y I s a w t w o d i ff e r e n t r e p o r t s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n t u a l l y yo u o b t a i n e d t h e m ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s. Ye s I d i d .
Page 202 of 231

and

indeed

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and you read them.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r e x e c u t i v e s u m m a r y w h e re i t w a s g i v e n

t o yo u .
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e a d t h e m ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s I d i d r e a d t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Ta k e i t f ro m t h e r e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. S o p e r h a p s t h a t l a st
10

p a rt y o u d i d g e t t h e t w o r e p o rt s ?
MR NHLEKO: No eventually I did.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
M R N H L E K O : G e t t h e r e p o rt s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d y o u c o n si d e re d b o t h r e p o rt s ?
MR NHLEKO: I read them.
ADV HULLEY SC:

May I ask where – where did you get the

t w o r e p o rt s f r o m i f I m a y a s k ?
MR NHLEKO:

I h a ve n o re c o l l e ct i o n i n t e rm s o f h o w I g o t

them.
20

A D V H U L L E Y S C : B u t a n y w a y, y o u g e t t h e t w o r e p o rt s.
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d t h e t w o r e p o rt s a r e t h e y b o t h

si g n e d ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s t h e y w e r e – t h e y w e r e si g n e d c o p i e s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w t h e t w o r e p o rt s c o m e t o t w o d i ff e r e n t
Page 203 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
c o n cl u si o n s.

T h e f i r st r e p o rt c o m e s t o t h e c o n cl u si o n t h a t

there

be

m u st

c ri m i n a l

proceedings

i n st i t u t e d

a g a i n st

G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt
c o m e s t o t h e c o n c l u si o n e ff e ct i v e l y e x o n e r a t i n g t h e m .
MR NHLEKO: Right.
ADV HULLEY SC:
do now?

Yo u – w h a t d o y o u m a k e – w h a t d o y o u

Yo u h a v e g o t t w o re p o rt s w h i c h c o m e t o d i ff e r e n t

c o n cl u si o n s h o w d o y o u d e ci d e a t t h a t st a g e n o w w h e n –
s o r r y – w h e n – f i r st l y w h e n d o y o u g e t t h e t w o r e p o rt s a s f a r
10

a s y o u ca n r e c a l l ?

When do you get the two reports?

Yo u

o b vi o u sl y n e e d t o g e t t h e m .
MR NHLEKO: Right.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And you do get them – when do you get

them?
MR NHLEKO: When do I get them?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e t w o r e p o rt s t h a t i s ri g h t ?
MR NHLEKO: Around about that period but I would not know
s p e ci f i c a l l y w h e n .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So that would be – I mean we know that

t h e – t h e – y o u r i n t e r vi e w w i t h S A B C w h e r e t h e [ 0 0 : 0 9 : 3 8 ]
t h e i s su e w a s S e p t e m b e r.
M R N H L E K O : I n S e p t e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e re p o rt o f y o u r R e f e r e n c e G ro u p o n
the rendition is dated 22 November 2014.
Page 204 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
MR NHLEKO: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t a k e i t t h a t t h e v e r b a l b ri e f i n g t h a t t h e y

g a ve y o u t h a t y o u t a l k e d a b o u t w o u l d h a v e b e e n w h e n t h i s
re p o rt w a s a v a i l a b l e . S o i t w o u l d b e p r o b a b l y a f t e r t h i s d a t e
– a f t e r t h e d a t e o f t h i s r e p o rt ?

After the date of the

R e f e r e n c e G r o u p ’s re p o rt o n re n d i t i o n .
M R N H L E K O : Ja l o o k a s I s a i d e a rl i e r o n s o m e o f t h e i s s u e
I would not be able to sequence them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

M R N H L E K O : A n d – w h i ch c a m e f i r st a n d s o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

W h e t h e r I h a d t h o s e r e p o rt s b e f o r e t h e 2 2

N o v e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : O r b e yo n d o r s o m e t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR NHLEKO: I would not be able to sequence that.
CHAIRPERSON: So…
MR NHLEKO:
20

B u t t h e p o i n t i s i n t h e b ri e f i n g t h i s m a t t e r i s

m e n t i o n e d a b o u t t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR NHLEKO:

And that it is a matter that needed to be

looked into.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i s t h e p o si t i o n t h a t yo u a r e n o t a b l e t o

t e l l a t t h i s st a g e w h e t h e r t h e v e r b a l b ri e f i n g a t w h i c h t h e y
Page 205 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
t o l d yo u a b o u t t h e a l l e g a t i o n o f t h e i r b e i n g t w o r e p o rt s w h e r e
t h e y m a k e t h a t a l l e g a t i o n yo u ca n n o t t e l l w h e t h e r t h a t w a s
b e f o r e t h i s r e p o r t o f t h e i r s t h a t i s t h e R e f e r e n ce G r o u p
b e ca m e r e a d y o r w h e t h e r i t w a s a f t e r ?
M R N H L E K O : I t i s d i ff i c u l t t o s a y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s d i ff i c u l t t o s a y n o .
M R N H L E K O : J a i t i s d i ff i c u l t t o s a y.
CHAIRPERSON: So that is fine.
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w o u l d i t b e co r re ct t o s a y w h a t e v e r

d a t e i t m u st h a v e b e e n i t i s l i k e l y t o h a v e b e e n s o m e w h e r e
t o w a r d s – c e rt a i n l y a f t e r S e p t e m b e r m a yb e o r t o w a r d s e n d o f
S e p t e m b e r/ O ct o b e r/ N o v e m b e r t h e r e a b o u t a t s o m e d a t e t h a t
y o u ca n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
M R N H L E K O : P o s si b l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

P o s si b l y j a .

M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. N o w I a m j u st t r yi n g
20

t o u n d e r st a n d a t t h i s st a g e h o w t h e a i d t o t h e b e st o f yo u r
knowledge

how

did

the

Reference

Group

compile

their

re p o rt ? W h a t d i d t h e y h a v e a va i l a b l e t o t h e m t o c o m p i l e t h e
re p o rt i n s o f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e ?
MR NHLEKO:

I think in this report they do refer to issues

t h a t – t h e y d o r e f e r t o s o m e i s s u e s a n d a ct i vi t i e s t h a t t h e y
Page 206 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
u n d e rt o o k i n cl u d i n g t h e q u e st i o n o f a sp e a ki n g t o ce rt a i n
i n d i vi d u a l s o r i n t e r vi e w i n g t h e m . I t h i n k t h e r e i s r e f e r e n ce t o
t h a t e ff e ct t h a t t h e r e a r e c e rt a i n i n d i vi d u a l s t h a t t h e y a l s o
s p o ke t o .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO:

H m . A n d t h a t t h e y a l s o d i d a n a n a l y si s o f a n

I P I D r e p o rt . I d o n o t s e e i t h e r e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e t o b e a s si st e d .

Ye s. A t p a g e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s E x h i b i t Y 7 .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th i s i s o n e o f t h e h i st o ri c b u n d l e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja I think this one was before…
ADV HULLEY SC: Which is page …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s b e f o r e w e s a i d t h e y m u st l a b e l t h e …
A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s b u n d l e b u t o ka y Y 7 w h a t p a g e ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

At page 141.

This is a letter Mr Nhleko

w h i c h i s d a t e d 4 N o v e m b e r. I t i s s i g n e d t h e re b y M i n i st e r o f
P o l i c e . I s t h a t y o u r si g n a t u r e a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e ?
20

MR NHLEKO: Page 141?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s ri g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Nhleko do not speak too much away

f ro m t h e m i c r o p h o n e .

I t h i n k y o u m i g h t h a ve t o b e n d i t

towards you.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s – n o s o r r y C h a i r.
Page 207 of 231

Ye s i t i s m y si g n a t u r e

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
S i r.
ADV HULLEY SC:
content

of

this

N o w j u st I t h i n k m a y b e j u st re a d t h e

letter

so

that

you

ca n

u n d e r st a n d

the

re l e v a n c e o f w h e r e t h e r e p o rt m a y h a ve c o m e i n .
M R N H L E K O : I t s a y s:
“ T h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e h a s i n h i s p o s se s s i o n a re p o rt f r o m
C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d d a t e d 2 7 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 .

The

a l l e g a t i o n s a r e t h o s e o f m u r d e r, ki d n a p p i n g a n d t h e f t .

Th e

c a s e s w e r e r e p o rt e d u n d e r t h e D i e p sl o o t p o l i c e st a t i o n c a s e
10

n u m b e r 3 9 0 / 2 7 / 2 0 1 0 B I t h i n k i t l o o k s.

The content of the

re p o rt s u g g e st t h a t t h e r e a r e c o n t r a v e n t i o n s o f i n t e r n a t i o n a l
l a w s p e rt a i n i n g t o h o w t h e a b o v e - m e n t i o n e d m a t t e r w a s
handled.
The

said

matter

was

r e f e rr e d

to

IPID

in

2012

for

i n v e st i g a t i o n .
I n t h i s r e g a r d , t h e E x e cu t i v e D i re c t o r o f I P I D i s h e r e b y
re q u e st e d t o p r o vi d e t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e w i t h c o p i e s o f t h e
d o c ke t s i n c o l o u r, e xh i b i t s t h e r e t o , p r o g r e s s r e p o rt s, a n d t h e
f i n a l r e p o rt i n t h i s m a t t e r.
20

T h e r e q u e st e d d o c u m e n t s w i l l

e n a b l e t h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e t o d i s c h a r g e i t s c o n st i t u t i o n a l
re s p o n si b i l i t i e s i n t e r m s o f S e ct i o n 2 0 7 ( 2 ) o f A ct 1 0 8 o f 1 9 9 6
a n d a d vi s e c o n c e r n e d c o n st i t u e n ci e s a c c o r d i n g l y.
They have requested documents should be delivered on
o r b e f o r e t h e 2 8 t h o f N o ve m b e r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

Wo u l d i t b e f a i r t o s a y, b a s e d u p o n t h i s
Page 208 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
d o cu m e n t , t h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s s e n t t o I P I D p u r s u a n t t o
y o u r d i s c u s si o n w i t h t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p ?
MR NHLEKO:

Maybe.

I t i s p o s si b l e .

I d o n o t k n o w.

It is

p o s si b l e , y e s. H ’ m ?
ADV HULLEY SC:

We l l , w h a t I a m a s ki n g y o u i s t h a t t h e . . .

h a s t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p a p p r o a c h e d yo u b e f o r e t h i s l e t t e r
w e n t o ff a n d a s k e d y o u t o s e n d o ff t h e l e t t e r ca l l i n g u p o n
I P I D t o p ro d u c e t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e d i ff e r e n t r e p o rt s t h a t t h e y
h a ve p r o d u c e d ?
10

MR NHLEKO:

H’m.

N o , i t i s p o s si b l e t h a t i t c o u l d b e a

m a t t e r t h a t I w a s o u t o f t h a t b ri e f i n g . . . e n g a g e m e n t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R N H L E K O : [ I n d i st i n ct ]
ADV HULLEY SC:

So at this point in time... this is now the

2 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r, y o u m e t w i t h t h e . . . o h , s o r r y.

Yo u g o t a

re p o rt f r o m t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p . A c c o r d i n g t o t h e c o n t e n t s
of

this

l e t t e r,

you

have

also

got

a

r e p o rt

from

C ri m e

Intelligence?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, b u t t h a t i s a r e p o rt , t h e 2 0 1 2 r e p o rt t h a t
20

h a d b e e n r e c e i v e d b y t h e m i n i st e r t h e r e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s.
M R N H L E K O : S o i t w a s t h e i n t h e m i n i st r y i n a se n s e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
MR NHLEKO: Ja.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w. . . b u t a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e , y o u h a v e
Page 209 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
g o t t h e C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e r e p o rt a n d y o u h a v e g o t t h e r e p o rt
f ro m t h e R e f e re n c e G r o u p .
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t h e d o c k e t , co r r e c t ?
MR NHLEKO: Alright.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s t h a t ri g h t ?
M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I t h i n k t h a t i s c o r r e ct .
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d w o u l d i t . . . a n d I s u r m i si n g n o w, b u t

would it be fair to say that the Reference Group also does
10

not have the docket?
MR NHLEKO:

Maybe. They did not, except that... I think in

the... at that time when we worked and they gave me a
p r e f e re n t i a l d e ci si o n , I t h i n k t h e r e w a s r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f a ct
t h a t t h e y h a d si g h e d so m e d o c u m e n t s a t I P I D i t se l f .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A si g h t o f d o c u m e n t s a t I P I D ?
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

O ka y.

to

you

this

l e t t e r,

2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r. . .
20

a

N o w, y o u t h e n r e c e i ve d p u r s u a n t
received

letter

on

the
the

letter
26th

of

on

the

November

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO: H’m?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : . . . f ro m I P I D .
M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct .
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t i s t w o p a g e s f u rt h e r o n w h i c h i s a t

p a g e 1 4 3 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e , M r C h a i r.
Page 210 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]
MR NHLEKO: Alright.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s t h a t c o r r e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : J a , t h a t i s c o rr e ct .
ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w, t h e y w o u l d h a v e p r o vi d e d y o u , t h a t

i s I P I D , w o u l d h a v e p r o vi d e d y o u w i t h a c o m p l e t e c o p y o f t h e
d o c ke t a t t h a t st a g e .
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s, I c a n . . . s o r ry.

I cannot recall whether

t h e y d i d , re a l l y. B u t I n o t e t h i s l e t t e r.
10

ADV HULLEY SC:

I f I u n d e r st o o d y o u r. . . o r i f I u n d e r st a n d

y o u r e vi d e n ce c o r re ct l y, y o u h a d t h e 2 4 N o v e m b e r l e t t e r.
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o r ry, r e p o rt .

S o r ry, t h e 2 4 N o v e m b e r

l e t t e r. Yo u h a d t h e 2 2 N o v e m b e r r e p o rt .
MR NHLEKO: Right.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h e 2 2 N o v e m b e r r e p o rt r e c o m m e n d e d

t h a t t h e re s h o u l d b e a s u s p e n si o n o f D ra m a t a n d S i b i y a .
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

B u t a s f a r a s I P I D w a s co n c e rn e d , yo u

h a d . . . yo u m i g h t n o t h a ve h a d t h e t w o r e p o rt s a t t h a t st a g e
b u t a s s u m i n g t h a t yo u d i d h a v e t h e t w o r e p o rt s. . . a n d i t i s
p o s si b l e t h a t y o u h a d t h e t w o r e p o rt s. I s t h a t c o r r e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : P o s si b l e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We l l , w h a t . . . yo u k n o w t h a t t h e R e f e r e n c e
Group

had

their

d i s c u s si o n

with

Page 211 of 231

yo u

and

had

a l re a d y

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
i n d i c a t e d t o y o u t h a t t h e re w e r e p o s si b l e t w o r e p o rt s ?
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o w h a t I a m t ryi n g t o u n d e r s t a n d i s,

w h e n d i d t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p a s k yo u f o r a l l , a t l e a st
i n f o r m e d y o u a b o u t t h e t w o r e p o rt s , t h e t w o p o s si b l e re p o rt s
t h a t t h e re w e r e ?
M R N H L E K O : W h e n d i d t h e y d o i t ? S o rr y ?
ADV HULLEY SC: When did the Reference Group... in other
w o rd s, w h a t t i m e w a s t h a t m e e t i n g w h e r e t h e y g a v e y o u
10

feedback?
CHAIRPERSON:

I think he could not remember earlier on

w h a t o r w h e n e x a ct l y w h e n I a s k e d h i m .

I s t h a t c o r re ct M r

Nhleko?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s -n o , t h a t i s v e r y c o r r e ct . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u co u l d n o t t e l l m e w h e t h e r i t w a s b e f o r e
o r a f t e r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: ...the interview at SABC.
20

ADV HULLEY SC:

Ye s a n d I t h i n k , a s I e l u d e d t o t h i s po i n t

e a rl i e r o n , t h a t s e q u e n c e i n . . . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h i ch
c a m e f i r st a n d w h a t e ve r a n d s o o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.

So you have got

t h i s d e ci si o n o r t h i s re p o rt f r o m t h e I P I D . . . s o r ry, f ro m t h e
Page 212 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
Reference Group.
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Yo u m a y o r yo u m a y n o t h a v e t h e t w o

re p o rt s f r o m I P I D .
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O n t h e 6 t h o f D e c e m b e r, y o u g i v e a n o t i c e
t o G e n e r a l D ra m a t o f y o u r i n t e n t i o n t o s u s p e n d h i m . W h a t i s
t h a t n o t i c e o f i n t e n t i o n t o s u s p e n d b a se d o n ?
MR NHLEKO:
10

T h e co n t e m p l a t i o n t o su s p e n d w a s o n t h e

b a si s o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o f t h e R e f e r e n ce G r o u p a s w e l l .
ADV HULLEY SC: So ...[intervenes]
M R N H L E K O : T h e f i r st r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o f t h e r e p o rt b y t h e
R e f e r e n c e G r o u p s p e a k s s p e ci f i c a l l y t o t h a t i s s u e .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re .
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

B u t i t i s o b v i o u sl y i m p o rt a n t t o h a v e t h e

two

because

IPID

r e p o rt s

on

the

face

of

it,

on

the

2 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r, o n y o u r d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t y o u g o t i n
y o u r p o s s e s si o n a t t h a t p o i n t t i m e , yo u o n l y h a v e a C ri m e
20

I n t e l l i g e n c e re p o rt a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e . C o rr e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : J a . We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u d o n o t h a v e a c o m p l e t e d o c k e t . D o I
u n d e r st a n d i t c o rr e ct l y ?
MR NHLEKO:

H’m.

L o o k, a s I sa i d C h a i r.

L o o k, i t i s

d i ff i c u l t f o r m e t o f o l l o w t h e s e q u e n c e o f t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n
Page 213 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
and the happenings at that time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR NHLEKO: So...
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w e l l i f yo u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R N H L E K O : Yo u k n o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

...

you

cannot

r e m e m b e r,

you

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR NHLEKO:
re p o rt
10

in

Ye s, i n t e r m s o f w h a t y o u l o ca t e a p a rt i c u l a r

relation

to

the

timeframe

and

so

on,

it

is

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , yo u d o t h e b e st y o u c a n t o r e m e m b e r.
M R N H L E K O : J a , i t i s r e a l l y d i ff i c u l t .
CHAIRPERSON:
That is fine.

O r g i v e a n e st i m a t e o f w h e n i t m i g h t b e .

A n d i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t m i g h t re m i n d

y o u , t h e n w e ca n l o o k a t t h a t .
M R N H L E K O : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e p o i n t I a m m a k i n g i s, w h e n t h e t w o . . .
w h e n I P I D re s p o n d s o n t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , I P I D
p r o vi d e s y o u w i t h a f u rt h e r b u n d l e o f d o c u m e n t s w h i c h i s
20

p a rt o f t h e d o c k e t . I n f a ct , t h e y p r o vi d e y o u w i t h a c o m p l e t e
d o c ke t . I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
M R N H L E K O : I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t w a s co m p l e t e b u t t h e
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y, l e t u s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR

NHLEKO:

...I

cannot

even

Page 214 of 231

recall

the

amount

of

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
d o cu m e n t a t i o n . T h a t m u st h a v e b e e n p r o vi d e d t h e r e .
ADV HULLEY SC:

L e t u s l e a d t h ro u g h t h i s d o c u m e n t .

It

s a y s:
“ W i t h re f e r e n c e t o y o u r r e q u e st , o n t h e d a t e o f t h e
2 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , ki n d l y n o t e t h a t t h e d o c k e t
CAS390/07/2010

is

i n c o r r e ct

as

the

docket

CAS

n u m b e r i n v e st i g a t e d b y I P I D i s 3 9 0 / 0 7 / 2 0 1 2 .
We a s s u m e t h a t t h i s i s t h e d o c k e t re f e rr e d t o i n yo u r
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a s t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p r e q u e st e d
10

same.
I n d e e d , t h e R e f e r e n ce G r o u p i n d i c a t e d t o M r K u b a ,
( w h o w a s t h e i n v e st i g a t i n g o ff i c e r) t h a t t h e y w i l l
re q u e st t h e d o c k e t t h r o u g h y o u r o ff i c e . . . ”
Do you see that?
MR NHLEKO: Right.
ADV HULLEY SC:
time.

N o w l e t u s j u st p a u s e a t t h i s p o i n t i n

O n t h i s. . . d i d y o u e v e r r e s p o n d t o t h i s l e t t e r t o M r

M c B ri d e ?
MR NHLEKO:
20

I a l s o d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I d i d re s p o n d t o

t h e l e t t e r.
ADV HULLEY SC:

He goes on to say in the following

p a r a g ra p h u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g “ b a c k g r o u n d ” t h a t :
“ T h e I P I D st a rt e d t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i n t h i s m a t t e r i n
November 2012.
I n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n , I P I D c o o p e r a t e d
Page 215 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
w i t h m e m b e r s o f C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e a n d i n p a rt i c u l a r
Colonel Kongwe.
T h e sa m e c o l o n e l st a rt e d w i t h t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n a n d
b r o u g h t t h e d o c k e t t o t h e I P I D re p o rt e d l y a t t h e
b e h e st o f t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e .
T h e i n v e st i g a t i o n w a s a l s o c o n d u ct e d i n c o n s u l t a t i o n
w i t h t h e t w o a d v o c a t e s f r o m t h e o ff i c e o f t h e N D P,
A d v o c a t e A n t h o n y R a s si e a n d A d v o c a t e B i l l i e M o l e t s e
[00:26:28].
10

The

two

a d vo c a t e s

were

involved

with

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n b e f o re t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n w a s h a n d e d t o
the IPID.
Indeed, they remained intimately involved with the
i n v e st i g a t i o n t h r o u g h o u t .
T h i s i n cl u d e d d i re ct i n v e st i g a t i o n w i t h c e rt a i n a s p e ct .
P r o g r e s s a n d p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o rt s w e r e p r o vi d e d t o
t h e m b y t h e i n v e s t i g a t i n g o ff i c e r.
A s a r e s u l t o f t h e d e ci si o n o f t h e p r e vi o u s a ct i n g

20

Executive

D i re ct o r,

Ms

i n st r u ct e d

that

i n v e st i g a t i o n

collaboration

the

with

K

Colonel

Mbeki,

Mr

be

Kongwe

Kuba

was

c o n d u ct e d
si n ce

he

in

had

st a rt e d t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n .
T h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o f I P I D i n cl u d e d v a r i o u s st a t e m e n t s
a l re a d y o b t a i n e d b y m e m b e r s o f C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e
and

following

up

o n l e a d s,

Page 216 of 231

some

of

which

were

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
p r o vi d e d b y C ri m e I n t e l l i g e n c e .
D u ri n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n , r e p o rt s w e r e
m a d e t o t h e a ct i n g e x e c u t i v e d i re ct o r a n d t h e o ff i c e
of

the

then

m i n i st e r

was

also

appraised

of

the

p r o g r e s s o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n .
D u ri n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i t b e c a m e
a p p a r e n t t o t h e I P I D i n v e st i g a t o r s t h a t t h e l e a k s t o
the

media

contained

intimate

knowledge

of

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n w e r e m a d e .
10

At

the

c o n cl u si o n

of

the

i n v e st i g a t i o n ,

n o t w i t h st a n d i n g s e v e r a l o t h e r p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o rt s t h a t
w e re w ri t t e n o n t h i s m a t t e r, t h e I P I D d i d a t h o r o u g h
a n a l y se s o f a l l t h e a v a i l a b l e e v i d e n c e a n d m a d e
re c o m m e n d a t i o n

to

the

executive

d i r e ct o r f o r h i s

c o n si d e r a t i o n .
I t m u st b e n o t e d t h a t I P I D c o n si d e re d o t h e r c h a r g e s
a g a i n st t h o se i n v o l v e d b u t t h o u g h t i t p r u d e n t t o w a i t
f o r t h e d e ci s i o n o f t h e N D P P.
T h e y c o n cl u d e ( u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g “ c o n c l u si o n ”) t h e
20

e x e cu t i v e

d i r e ct o r

after

careful

and

thorough

c o n si d e r a t i o n o f t h e r e p o rt a p p r o v e d t h e r e p o rt w i t h
re c o m m e n d a t i o n s t o t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c
P r o s e cu t i o n s a n d t h e S A P S N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r.
The

recommendation

with

the

entire

docket

and

e vi d e n t i a l m a t e ri a l w a s f o r w a r d e d t o t h e o ff i ce o f t h e
Page 217 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
N D P P o n t h e 1 4 t h o f A p ri l 2 0 1 4 a n d o n t h e s a m e d a y
a d i s ci p l i n a r y r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w a s f o r w a r d e d t o t h e
O ff i c e o f t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s si o n e r.
Yo u r o ff i c e s a r e h e r e b y h a n d e d co p i e s o f t h e d o c k e t
t h a t w a s f o r w a r d e d t o t h e O ff i c e o f N D P P.
I t sa y s I P I D i s st i l l a w a i t e d t h e d e ci si o n o f t h e
N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P r o se c u t i o n i n t h i s m a t t e r.
S i m i l a rl y, w e h a v e n o t re c e i v e d t h e S A P S ’s r e p o rt o n
t h e i n i t i a t i o n o f t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g a g a i n st
10

L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l Ma l u l e k a [ 0 0 : 2 8 : 4 4 ] .
T h e e x e c u t i v e d i r e ct o r a n d t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n t e a m w i l l
b e a v a i l a b l e t o b ri e f t h e m i n i st e r o n t h i s i n v e st i g a t i o n
a t a n y t i m e co n v e n i e n t t o t h e m i n i st e r. . . ”
D i d y o u c a l l f o r t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h t h e m f o r t h e m t o b ri e f
you?
MR NHLEKO:

No, I cannot recall whether I called for a

m e e t i n g . I h a v e n o . . . a b s o l u t e r e c o l l e ct i o n o f t h a t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

We l l , l e t m e a s k y o u a sl i g h t l y d i ff e re n t

q u e st i o n .
20

MR NHLEKO: H’m?
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u c a n n o t re c a l l t h a t y o u h a v e c a l l e d f o r
the meeting.

Yo u re c a l l w h e t h e r y o u i n f a ct m e t w i t h t h e m ,

with IPID?
MR NHLEKO: I do not recall the... calling a meeting with the
i n v e st i g a t i n g t e a m .
Page 218 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:

N o w y o u h a v e g o t t w o r e p o rt s, o n e o f

w h i c h w e k n o w e x o n e r a t e s m i st e r. . . s o rr y, G e n e r a l S i b i y a
and Dramat.
MR NHLEKO: H’m.
ADV HULLEY SC:

A n d o n e o f w h i c h i m p l i ca t e s t h e m .

have also got the report of the reference group.

Yo u

Yo u h a v e

m a d e a d e c i s i o n , i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y c o r r e c t l y,
you have made a decision to suspend General Dramat on the
6 December based up the report of the reference group
10

which, according to IPID, was not based upon the docket
because they did not have the docket at that point in time.
Now the question is, if the reference – if IPID is
correct and the reference group did not have the docket and
the

reference

decision
compiled

on
in

investigation

group
a

could

Crime
2012,

had

at

best

Intelligence
in

been

other

only

have

report

that

words

completed,

the

long

based
had

its

been

before

the

investigation

was

completed or had come towards a conclusion in late 2013
entering into 2014.
20

MR NHLEKO:

But remember that the report of the reference

group also does touch upon the IPD investigation, it does
make an assessment of that indirectly in terms of the report
produced by [indistinct] 31.21 then.
and

on

the

basis

of

that

they

So it does refer to that
then

make

specific

recommendations in terms of what then the Minister should
Page 219 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, M r N h l e k o , s h a l l w e d o t h i s .

Yo u

look at him when he asks the question but you turn and look
a t m e w h e n y o u g i v e t h e a n s w e r.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

because I am struggling to hear and I must

hear your answers.
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

N o , I k e e p o n a p o l o g i z i n g f o r t h i s , C h a i r, i t i s

only that I just …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o , t h a t i s f i n e , I c a n u n d e r s t a n d .

ADV HULLEY SC:

If you look at the report of the reference

group, the report talks about certain interviews, if you turn to
page 3450, that is EXHIBIT Y8TT and it says that:
“On

the

Maluleke
reference

22
was

November

2014

interviewed

group.

He

Lieutenant

by

was

a

Colonel

member

confronted

of

the

with

the

following questions.”
20

And then they set out a list of questions.
MR NHLEKO:

Okay.

ADV HULLEY SC:

They say, paragraph 22, that:

“On the 10 November Mr Kuba the officer in charge of
the

investigation

was

interviewed.

During

the

interview it became clear that he was supportive of
Page 220 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
the

conspiracy

theory

against

Lieutenant

General

Dramat and despite the abundant evidence explaining
his involvement.

He has also accepted the police

o ff i c i a l s i m p l i c a t i n g G e n e r a l S i b i y a o f d e l i b e r a t e l y
misdirecting the investigation officer.”
So those are the two interviews that have been conducted.
One on the 22 November with Lieutenant Colonel Maluleke
and one on the 10 November 2014 with Mr Kuba. Do you see
that?
10

MR NHLEKO:

Yes, I do see that.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now where else did they either interview

or get further documentation from as far as you are aware,
even if it is based on what you have seen in this report?
MR NHLEKO:

I would not be able to respond to that

question.
ADV HULLEY SC:
MR NHLEKO:

Okay.

Now, according to the evidence of Mr. Kuba

and Mr. McBride, they testified to the fact – and it is
contained in the affidavits as well, that when the reference
20

group left their offices which occurred sometime in October
of 2014, the reference group indicated to them that they are
going to go over to the Minister and ask the Minister to
request the documents from IPID.
must

in

fact

have

done

so,

So the reference group

must

have

in

fact

have

approached her and said we do not have the docket and IPID
Page 221 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
has not made it available to us. Would that be correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Maybe.

CHAIRPERSON:

And then look this side when you give the

answer.
MR NHLEKO:

Oh, ja. I am saying maybe, I really would not

have detail thereof.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, okay.

ADV HULLEY SC:

If you indeed had the two reports when

you decided to suspend Lieutenant General Dramat and
10

Sibiya, would it be fair to say that you had decided to accept
t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p ’s r e p o r t o v e r t h e i r t w o r e p o r t s o r o v e r
the second of the two reports?

In other words, the March

2014 report?
MR NHLEKO:

Look, I had no reason to doubt the work of

t h e r e f e r e n c e g r o u p r e a l l y.

They will just – whatever they

produced in terms of the assessment they made around the
investigation report that was at their disposal and perhaps
other documents that they have must have looked into and
they made recommendations to me as the Minister and I had
20

to – I acted on those recommendations.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Did you have reason to doubt the reports

of IPID?
MR NHLEKO:

Look, when the allegation came through

about the question of the existence of the two reports, with
s a m e c o n t e n t b u t d i ff e r e n t s o r t o f s e t o f r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s ,
Page 222 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
for an example, you are bound to begin to ask certain
questions one of which is the question of why you have two
reports.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And what conclusion did you come to on

the 6 December of 2014 insofar as those questions. Did you
ask yourself the questions but what conclusion, what answer
did you provide to those questions?
MR NHLEKO:

I do not know about the 6 December but the

fact is if you are asking in relation to the issue, I have just
10

posed about the allegation of the existence of the two
reports it required further investigation.
ADV HULLEY SC:

And that obviously had to take place

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , m a y b e b e f o r e y o u g o f u r t h e r, M r

H u l l e y, I w a s g o i n g t o w a n t t o t a l k t o t h a t a n d I h a v e a l l u d e d
to it before.

Having read the two reports, because you do

say you did read them, your concern you said, I think, was
the same as that of the reference group.
MR NHLEKO:
20

Correct..

CHAIRPERSON:

Namely the different recommendations in

regard to certain people I think but the body of the report to
a very large extent, being the same, is that right?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .

CHAIRPERSON:

And was there anything – did you apply

your mind to what it was that may have been different in the
Page 223 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
second

report

that

might

have

explained

why

the

recommendation about, for example, I think General Dramat
and General Sibiya, why they gave that recommendation? In
other words, did you look at the report and apply your mind
to the reasons they were – the second report was giving for
saying

or

not

recommending

that

they

be

charged

as

opposed to the first report which said that General Dramat
must be charged and gave certain information about that.
MR NHLEKO:
10

N o , C h a i r, t h e i s s u e f o r m e i s t h a t I r e a l l y

needed assistance in unpacking that particular issue, you
know?

And

for

commissioned

that

reason,

then

further work for an

that

is

how

I

then

investigation but

with

pointed sort of terms of reference as opposed to a, you
k n o w, a b r o a d s o r t o f g e n e r a l a p p r o a c h a r o u n d t h e q u e s t i o n
of either the renditions and the allegation of the question of
the two reports.
CHAIRPERSON:

I understand what you are saying to be

t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w e r e d i ff e r e n t
recommendations in the two reports in regard to the same
20

subject is what was of concern to you but as to the basis,
you did not go into that but the fact that there were these
d i ff e r e n t r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s w a s i n y o u r v i e w e n o u g h f o r y o u
to justify asking for an investigation.

Is that what you are

saying?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

N o , i t w a s e n o u g h f o r m e , C h a i r, t o
Page 224 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
then say but how do you come to different recommendations?
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

On the same body of work conducted at some

point.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

And, of course, another report produced later

on at a point and so on.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
10

Ye s .

And I think it would become clearer in terms

of what then transpired in terms of that work in particular to
establish the question of the existence of the two reports but
how it came about, that particular situation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Let me put to you what my expectation

would have been. My expectation would have been since the
Executive Director of IPID reported to you, my expectation
would be that you would pick up a phone or get somebody in
y o u r s t a ff t o s a y c a l l M r. M c B r i d e , I w o u l d l i k e t o s e e h i m , I
w o u l d l i k e t o d i s c u s s , h i m t o e x p l a i n t o m e t h e s e d i ff e r e n t
recommendations, he might come alone, he might come with
20

his team, or write to him so that you hear what he has to say
or what they have to say because their explanation might
make it unnecessary for you to ask somebody to investigate
b u t i f t h e y g i v e y o u a n e x p l a n a t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e d i ff i c u l t y
with that maybe you could ask somebody to investigate, so
that would be what I would have expected you to do. Do you
Page 225 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
want to comment on that?
J u s t p i c k u p t h e p h o n e a n d s a y M r. M c B r i d e , I h a v e
become of these two reports, there is something strange
about these two reports to me, this one recommends this,
t h i s o n e r e c o m m e n d s t h a t , i t i s t h e s a m e s u b j e c t m a t t e r,
come and see me with or without your team, let me hear
what the story is.
MR NHLEKO:

No, I – perhaps that is another way of

looking at it but in my opinion, the fact that we had to
10

respond to the issues that were already out there at a public
level and that I had to constitute a body that needed to look
into those particular issues and asked them, amongst other
things, of course, the issue of the renditions that it needed
to be looked into precisely because there was still a matter
t h a t w a s h a n g i n g o u t t h e r e i n a w a y.
Now the mere fact that the reference group acted in
the manner in which it did in terms of whether it wanted
further information

and/or documents

and

so on,

by

an

extension, that was the Minister of Police requesting that
20

information.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:
thing.

But of course that …[intervenes]
So it boils down to more or less the same

I mean, I accept your view and your angling into that

matter and so on but the fact is that we had asked that – I
had asked all institutions, for instance, the following and
Page 226 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
then the Minister of Police to cooperate with the work of the
reference group because we needed to look into the range of
these particular issues.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, I accept that if the reference

group asked for certain information in order to do their work
a n d t o a d v i s e y o u , w h a t e v e r, w h a t e v e r i n f o r m a t i o n
obviously

would

understanding

be

of

issues.

benefit
But

I

to

you

understood

in
you

they got,
terms
to

of
–

I

understood the position to be that the reference group had
10

not asked IPID for an explanation of did I misunderstand
that? I did not understand that the reference group asked.
MR NHLEKO:

No, I was actually just making a general

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O h , j a , o k a y.
To t h e n s a y i t i s p o s s i b l e t h a t i n t h e w o rk

that they were doing, looking into this thing, there are things
that they requested from the side of IPID, for instance, for
them to be able to do their work and conclude in whatever
manner that they needed to.
20

My point though is that the

fact that the reference constituted by the Minister had to
do that in response to the issues at a public level in which
they had been ventilated.

If the reference group came to

you and said look there is this information that we are
requiring and you haven’t been informed for an example
that there is this work that has been conducted and so
Page 227 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
forth, either by extension and the interpretation is that it is
the Minister of Police that is looking for that information.
CHAIRPERSON:
what

or

rather

No, no I understand that.
let

me

put

it

this

w a y,

I am saying
what

I

don’t

understand is why if there is – you have some query about
these two reports you don’t ask IPID to explain to you
before you instruct a law firm to investigate I would have
thought that the first thing to do is to say let me hear what
t h e y h a v e t o s a y, b e c a u s e t h e y m i g h t s a t i s f y y o u i n w h i c h
10

case you don’t have to incur the expenses of lawyers to
investigate or if they don’t satisfy you, you might have
good grounds to say well let me get somebody else to
investigate, so I am saying my expectation would be that
you would first ask IPID for an explanation before you
could get the matter to be investigated, but I think you
were

saying

earlier

on

you

understand

that,

but

you

considered that you should ask for an investigation.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

There is nothing you are able to add

there?
MR NHLEKO:

No there is nothing that I am able to add.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR NHLEKO:

O k a y.

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Hulley?

A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. S o j u s t g o i n g b a c k
Page 228 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
briefly

to

that,

the

reference

group,

if

I

understood

correctly had made, or had told you when you met with
them and they had given you a briefing on what happened
and of their report, given you some feedback, they spoke
about the fact that there might be two reports, correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Correct.

ADV HULLEY SC:

Now so even that, at that point in time

when you met with the reference group it wasn’t clear that
there were in fact two reports, whether there was one
10

report, whether there was two reports, but it appeared that
there were two reports but they might conflict with each
o t h e r.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s , i n t h e i r b r i e f i n g t h a t ’ s w h a t t h e y

alluded to yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well Mr Hulley we are at two minutes to

s i x , i f y o u w a n t t o w r a p u p y o u m a y, i f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV HULLEY SC:

Thank you, I will just wrap up on this

particular point, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y.

ADV HULLEY SC:

And of course, if I understood you

correctly Mr Chair your background was for many years in
the trade union environment where you were accustomed to
the concept of consultation.
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s .

ADV HULLEY SC:

And if I recall correctly when you first
Page 229 of 231

27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
entered the ministry that is now in May of 2014 you had
spent a lot of time doing exactly that, as you have said you
spent time consulting with all the senior management to
find out what the problems were, correct?
MR NHLEKO:

Ye s I d i d .

ADV HULLEY SC:
accept

that

consulted

it

And just on this particular issue you

would

with

Mr

be

rather

McBride

to

strange
find

out

if

you

what

hadn’t

was

the

explanation for the two reports?
10

MR NHLEKO:

Do I find it strange?

ADV HULLEY SC:

I am suggesting to you do you accept

that it would have been somewhat strange if having been
told

about

the

existence

of

two

reports

you

hadn’t

consulted with him about it?
MR NHLEKO:

I d o n ’ t k n o w, m a y b e u n d e r a d i f f e r e n t s e t o f

circumstances really but by then I think I had already
commissioned the reference group to look into a range of
t h e s e t h i n g s a n d a d v i s e m e a c c o r d i n g l y.
ADV HULLEY SC:
20

Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay it is six o’clock, we are going to

r e s u m e t o m o r r o w.

I think we can resume at ten because I

don’t know what your estimation of how much time you
would need but I would imagine that we should not be than
– what – one and a half hours, two hours or am I being too
optimistic?
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27 JULY 2020 – DAY 238
ADV HULLEY SC:
may

be

I think that might be a bit optimistic, it

preferable

if

we

started

at

nine

o’clock

Mr

Chairman, I know there’s the issue of Mr Kuba has got to
come in a little bit later on.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h a t i s y o u r e s t i m a t e o f h o w m u c h

time, I know we are now at what – dealing with one of the
real issues, so ...
ADV HULLEY SC:

My estimate of the time it will probably

be about another two, two and a half hours.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, I think let’s start at ten because I

may have some matters to attend to before ten, let’s start
at ten, let’s resume at ten, we will do the best we can, all
of us, to finish timeously without – to finish timeously and
still do justice to all the issues that need to be dealt with.
O k a y, w e w i l l a d j o u r n n o w a n d w e w i l l r e s u m e a t t e n
o’clock tomorrow morning.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 2 8 J U LY 2 0 2 0

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