C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

28 AUGUST 2019

D AY 1 5 1

20

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 28 AUGUST 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r M o k o e n a , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Mr Dukwana.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir w e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d I j u s t w a n t t o d e a l w it h o n e
is s u e .
10

S i n c e th e p a s s in g a w a y o f th e l a t e Mr G a v i n W a ts o n t h e

c o m m i s s io n h a s r e c e iv e d a n u m b e r o f e n q u ir i e s f r o m t h e m e d i a o n
w h e t h e r o r n o t i t w a s i n t e n d in g to c a ll h i m t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d w h e th e r
t h e r e a r e a n y s t e p s it h a d t a k e n t o t h a t e n d . W e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o
is s u e a m e d i a s t a t e m e n t b u t I h a v e d e c i d e d th a t I w i ll g iv e th e
r e s p o n s e n o w a n d t h e r e s p o n s e i s th a t y e s i n d e e d h e w a s o n e o f t h e
p e o p l e th a t th e c o m m i s s io n i n t e n d e d t o g iv e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m e
a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d p u t h is s i d e o f t h e s t o r y b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n
a n d b e q u e s ti o n e d b y t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s a n d th e c o m m i s s io n . B u t h e
h a d n o t b e e n c a l l e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a s y e t a n d n o d a t e h a d b e e n
arranged.

20

B u t w h a t h a d b e e n d o n e i s t h a t e i t h e r la s t w e e k a t s o m e

s t a g e o r t h e w e e k b e f o r e t h a t I h a d s i g n e d w h a t w e c a ll a R e g u la t io n
1 0 . 6 D ir e c t iv e t h a t is a D ir e c ti v e t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n i s e m p o w e r e d in
t e r m s o f t h e R e g u l a ti o n s t o is s u e to a p e r s o n t h a t m a y h a v e i n f o r m a t i o n
t h a t is r e le v a n t t o th e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d i n
t e r m s o f t h a t D ir e c t – o f th e – i n t e r m s o f t h e p o w e r s g i v e n t o th e
C h a ir p e r s o n u n d e r R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 . 6 th e C h a ir p e r s o n c a n d i r e c t a p e r s o n

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t o a p p e a r b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n o r t o f u r n is h a n a ff id a v i t o r s t a t e m e n t
in r e g a r d t o c e r ta in m a t t e r s . I n t h e c a s e o f t h e l a t e M r G a v i n W a ts o n
t h e R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 .6 D ir e c t iv e t h a t I h a v e s i g n e d w a s n o t o n e t h a t
r e q u ir e d h i m t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n a s y e t b u t i t w a s o n e t h a t
r e q u ir e d h i m t o fu r n is h a n a ffi d a v it d e a l in g w i t h th e v a r i o u s m a t te r s th a t
h a d b e e n d e a l t w i t h in th e s ta t e m e n t o f M r A g r iz z i a n d t h e p e r s o n n e l o f
t h e c o m m i s s io n h a d a lr e a d y b e e n i n t o u c h w i th h i s a t t o r n e y s a n d
a tt e m p ts w e r e b e in g m a d e to a r r a n g e f o r t h e D ir e c ti v e t o b e s e r v e d o n
M r W a t s o n . B u t I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t h e – h is a t t o r n e y s h a d i n d ic a t e d th a t
10

t h e s e r v ic e s h o u l d b e o n t h e m . T h e D ir e c ti v e h a d n o t y e t b e e n s e r v e d
a t t h e ti m e o f h is p a s s i n g o n . I th in k th a t w e w il l l i m it o u r – w h a t w e – I
h a v e to s a y t o s i m p ly th a t – a n d w e d o t h a t s i m p l y b e c a u s e th e r e h a v e
b e e n a n u m b e r o f m e d i a e n q u ir i e s w i t h r e g a r d to t h is a n d I h o p e t h a t
t h is c l a r i f ie s i t . T h a n k y o u . W e m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Mr D u k w a n a y e s t e r d a y w h e n w e

a d j o u r n e d y o u w e r e j u s t a b o u t t o d e a l w i th t h e m a i n to p ic s a n d t h e fir s t
t o p ic t h a t y o u h a v e i d e n t i fi e d is t h e o n e t h a t y o u c a ll t h e As b e s to s
E r a d i c a t io n A u d i t , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
20

A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

Ye s .

A n d y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h s a m e

fr o m p a g e 1 2 , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w I w a s q u i t e in tr ig u e d w i t h t h e

h e a d i n g t h a t y o u w e r e g iv i n g t o t h a t t o p i c .

Yo u c a l l i t th e As b e s to s

H e is t . C o u ld y o u p le a s e e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir w h y y o u c h o s e to c o i n i t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
in t h a t m a n n e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir p e r s o n I u s e – I c h o s e t o
r e fe r t o t h is b e c a u s e o f t h e m a n n e r th e w h o le p r o j e c t w a s – w a s
c r e a te d a s w e ll a s h o w i t c a m e a b o u t a n d a ls o t h e fa c t th a t i t c r e a t e d
a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t i t w a n t e d t o a d d r e s s a p a r t ic u l a r p r o b l e m t h a t is
e x p e r i e n c e d b y v e r y, v e r y p o o r p e o p l e w h o a r e s t a y i n g i n th e h o u s e s
t h a t s t il l h a v e a s b e s to s r o o fi n g . A n d t h e f a c t th a t th e w h o le t h i n g – t h e
m o t iv a t i o n f o r t h e w h o l e th in g w a s t h e – i t c r e a te d a n i m p r e s s io n o f
p e o p l e w h o w e r e w o r r i e d a n d c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e h e a lt h h a z a r d s o f
10

s u c h a c o n d i t io n c a n c r e a te f o r p e o p l e w h o a r e s t a y i n g i n h o u s e s th a t
h a v e a r o o f – a s b e s t o s r o o v e s . B u t i t w i ll b e c l e a r a s w e c o n t in u e th a t
t h e i n t e n t io n w a s n o t fo r – f o r w h a t t h e y h a d m o ti v a t e d t h i s p r o j e c t b u t
it w a s s o m e t h i n g e ls e i n t e r m s o f s y p h o n i n g r e s o u r c e s o f t h e – o f t h e
p u b lic , .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w c o u l d w e n o w p r o c e e d t o d e a l
w i t h t h e s p e c i f ic f a c ts w h ic h a r e c o n ta i n e d in y o u r s t a te m e n t b u t f ir s tl y
c o u l d y o u g iv e t h e C h a ir t h e b a c k g r o u n d f a c ts w h i c h a r e m a t e r ia l a n d
r e l e v a n t t o th is As b e s t o s s a g a ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n th e p e r s o n t h a t – t h a t p la y e d a

20

p iv o t a l r o l e in t h is – i n t h is s i t u a t io n i s a p e r s o n w e l l k n o w n to m e e v e n
b e f o r e t h e – t h i s p r o – th is p r o je c t. Th e y h a d o n e p r o j e c t th a t t o g e t h e r
w i t h a p a r tn e r t h e n n o t t h i s o n e M r M o g w e r a t h a t d i d n o t g o a n y f u r t h e r.
A n d h e is fr o m m y h o m e t o w n W e lk o m a n d w e – w e u s u a l ly m e e t a n d a t
s o m e s t a g e h e w a s t h e s a m e p e r s o n w h o i n ti m a t e d , w h o b r o u g h t th is t o
m y a t t e n t i o n t h e p r o je c t i ts e l f a n d h e w a s v e r y e x c i t e d a t t h e t i m e in –

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w h e n h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t t h is . B u t h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t th is p r o je c t
h a v i n g h a d t h e a p p r o v a l fr o m th e – th e F r e e S t a te G o v e r n m e n t . A n d i t
w a s a t th a t ti m e t h a t b e c a u s e o f m y a c t iv i s m in t h e A N C th e y w e r e
lo o k in g f o r a n o p p o r t u n i ty a l s o t o e x p a n d t o s o m e p r o v i n c e s a n d h e w a s
a s k in g a fa v o u r fr o m m e t o h e l p h i m g e t to o t h e r p r o v in c e s .

But I

w a n t e d m o r e d e t a i ls o n th e p r o je c t i ts e l f b e c a u s e o n e a ls o v a l u e s y o u r
– o n e s c r e d i b i li ty i n t h e s e n s e t h a t y o u d o n o t w a n t t o i n tr o d u c e a n y o n e
t o p e o p l e t h a t y o u w o u l d k n o w a n d i n tr o d u c e s o m e t h i n g t h a t is
u n t o w a r d . A n d th e n I a s k e d s o m e – s o m e o f t h e d e t a il s p e r ta in i n g to
10

t h is p r o je c t a n d th e y w e r e n o t f o r t h c o m in g a n d I d id n o t c o n t in u e . B u t
it w a s d u r i n g o u r in t e r a c ti o n t h a t h e in f o r me d m e w i t h a l l t h e d e t a i ls
a n d th e p e o p l e th a t w e r e i n v o lv e d fr o m t h e – t h e p e r s o n t h a t y e s t e r d a y
w e w e r e t o l d w e s h o u l d n o t m e n t io n – t h e p e r s o n w a s m e n t io n e d t o m e
a n d w h e n h e m e n ti o n e d th e p e r s o n h e u s e d t h e i n i t ia ls a n d I w a n te d t o
k n o w w h y – w h o is t h is p e r s o n a n d h e w a s s a y i n g w h e r e a r e y o u l iv in g ;
do you not know this person? And then – and you are in government
but you do not know this.

T h e n I – I a c t u a lly w a s s u r p r is e d t h a t h e

w o u ld m e n ti o n s u c h a n d t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip t h a t th e y h a d . A n d e v e r y t i m e
h e w a s t a lk i n g t o p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n v o lv e d i n th is h e w a s u s in g i n i t ia ls
20

a n d t h is w o u l d g iv e th e b a c k g r o u n d t o w h y I w a s c o n fi d e n t a n d w h y I
a m s t il l c o n f i d e n t th a t w h a t h e – h e s a i d t o m e r e l a t e s t o t h e s e p e o p l e
t h a t I m e n ti o n h e r e a n d a l s o th e f a c ts th a t w o u l d d e m o n s tr a t e t h a t w h y
a ls o I b e li e v e d s o . S o th is is t h e b a c k g r o u n d t h a t I g i v e t o th is k i n d o f
a problem – of a project.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s .

W h e n w e c o m e t o th a t i n d i v i d u a l

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h a t I d o n o t w a n t u s to m is s it fr o m t h e r e c o r d a l w a y s
r e fe r t o h i m a s M r X .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h a t a t t h e a p p r o p r i a te ti m e w h e n th e
ti m e c o m e s w h e n w e a r e a b l e to d e a l w i t h th e fu ll n a m e s w e c a n
a tt r i b u t e th a t t o M r X .

I t w il l b e m u c h m o r e e a s i e r t h a t w a y.

So

w h e n e v e r t h a t y o u w a n t t o m e n t io n h is n a m e s a y t o t h e C h a ir y o u
r e m e m b e r M r X is t h e o n e t h a t d i d A B C D . T h a t w i ll h e l p u s t o t r a c e t h e
f a c ts .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C a n I in d ic a t e C h a i r p e r s o n I a m s o r r y M r

Mokoena.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t o n e o f th e m o tiv a ti o n s th a t t h e la t e I g o
a s w e c a l l e d h i m M p a m b a n i – M r M p a m b a n i w a s – h e q u ic k ly w h e n h e
m e n ti o n e d – h e q u i c k l y i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t n o w e d o n o t n e e d m o n e y
fr o m t h e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t w e c a n – y o u k n o w – w e c a n a c tu a lly
s o u r c e i t fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l G o v e r n m e n t a s w e h a v e d o n e w i t h th is o n e .
S o – a n d I a m t a lk i n g t h i s I g o ; th e l a t e I g o i s a v e r y, v e r y in t e l li g e n t
young person.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpambani.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Mr M p a m b a n i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ve r y, v e r y i n te ll ig e n t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I

u n d e r s t o o d s o m e o f t h e e a g e r n e s s t o d o t h is t h e w a y t h e y h a v e d o n e
t h is b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e v io u s f a i lu r e s i n t h e p r o v i n c e i n a t t e m p ti n g t o d o

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s o m e p r o j e c t s a n d t h e y w e r e le t d o w n a n d s o m e m o n ie s w e r e r e q u e s te d
fr o m th e m a n d a t t h e ti m e t h e y w e r e n o t w i ll in g to p l a y a n d t h e y w e n t
u n d e r s o m e ti m e . A n d y o u c a n i m a g in e w h e n y o u a r e a b u s i n e s s p e r s o n
a n d t h e y w e r e u p t h e r e a n d t h e ir b u s i n e s s e m p i r e c o l la p s e d a n d t h is
a ls o w a s g iv i n g t h e m a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r is e a g a in .

So I could

u n d e r s t a n d h is e a g e r n e s s t o g e t t h is r o l l e d o u t t o o th e r p r o v in c e s b u t I
w i ll c o m e t o t h a t a t th e a p p r o p r i a te t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:
10

I w i ll b e r e fe r r i n g y o u t o a n u m b e r o f

d o c u m e n ts . F o r n o w w e w i ll n o t d e a l w i t h t h e d e ta ils o r t h e c o n t e n t s i n
f u ll o f th o s e d o c u m e n ts b u t t o a s s i s t y o u t o s k e tc h th e b a c k g r o u n d
m a t e r i a l t o t h e e v i d e n c e w h ic h y o u a r e a d d u c i n g b e fo r e th e C h a ir. T h e
fir s t d o c u m e n t t h a t I w a n t u s to v i s i t is o n p a g e 3 9 . I t is p a g e 3 9 C h a ir
a n d o n c e y o u a r e t h e r e M r D u k w a n a i f y o u c a n id e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t
f o r t h e C h a ir ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s – i t i s – th e h e a d i n g h a s a
b l a c k – a B la c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g a n d D i a m o n d H i ll Tr a d i n g a n d i t h a s
Fr e e S t a te P r o v in c e E r a d i c a t io n o f A s b e s t o s A u d i t R e p o r t a ll t o w n s .
A n d i t h a s th e e m b l e m o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v in c e .

20

Fr e e S t a te

D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t a n d th e fi n a l a u d it r e p o r t e r a d i c a t io n
o f a s b e s t o s r o o v e s o n h o u s e s w i t h i n t h e Fr e e S t a te P r o v in c e a n d p l u s
R 3 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

S o t h is w i ll ti e u p w it h th e t o p ic

t h a t y o u a r e a d d r e s s i n g t o d a y b e fo r e th e C h a ir, a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h is d o c u m e n t a s y o u h a v e c o r r e c t ly
s t a te d i t w a s d r a f t e d b y a n e n ti ty c a ll e d B l a c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g , a m I
correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

An d may we then turn to page

[i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t b e a r s t h e d a te o f 1 3 t h F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O h y e s . Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is d a t e d s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is i m p o r t a n t C h a ir.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s 1 4 t h Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w i f y o u m a y tu r n t o p a g e 4 2 a n d y o u
w i ll s e e t h a t o n p a g e 4 2 y o u w i ll fi n d a h e a d i n g E x e c u tiv e S u m m a r y.
I m m e d ia t e l y t h e r e a f t e r t h e r e is a s u b - h e a d i n g P r o j e c t B a c k g r o u n d .

If

you can read those two paragraphs into the record so that we can
a p p r e c ia t e – s o w e c a n a p p r e c i a t e .
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : It – t h e E x e c u t i v e S u m m a r y Pr o j e c t S u m m a r y
Background.
“ B l a c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g a n d D i a m o n d H i ll f o r m e d a
jo in t v e n t u r e a n d w e r e a p p o in t e d b y t h e Fr e e S t a t e
Department

of

Human

S e t t le m e n t

as

Blackhead

C o n s u lt i n g J V to a s s e s s a n d q u a li fy th e e n tir e s t o c k

Page 8 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
of

low

and

d e n s i ty

r e s id e n ti a l

housing

a c c o m m o d a ti o n w i t h r o o v e d a s b e s to s i n t h e Fr e e
S t a te P r o v i n c e w i t h t h e u l ti m a t e a i m o f e r a d ic a ti n g
t h e s e a s b e s t o s r o o v e s . T h e a s s e s s m e n t r e s u l t s w i ll
enable the Department to formulate a plan to replace
t h e a ffe c te d r o o v e s w it h e n v ir o n m e n t a lly fr ie n d ly r o o f
c o v e r in g t o g u a r a n te e t h e c it iz e n s o f th e Fr e e S t a te
a h e a l th i e r li v e li h o o d a n d a n i m p r o v e d q u a l i ty o f
li fe . ”
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

A n d t h e s e a c c o r d t o a ls o y o u

r e c o l l e c ti o n p e r t a i n i n g t o th e s e As b e s t o s H e is t a s y o u r e f e r t o i t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w w e w il l c o m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i t h t h e
s e q u e n c e I ju s t w a n te d t o p a i n t a p ic tu r e a r o u n d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts .
C a n I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 1 0 7 ?
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 1 0 7 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 107.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 107.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d a s y o u h a v e d o n e w i t h t h e p r e v io u s
d o c u m e n t i f y o u m a y p l e a s e a l s o i d e n t if y t h e d o c u m e n t a n d a ls o
m e n ti o n t h e d a te o f th e d o c u m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is is w r i t te n o n t h e – o n th e l e t te r h e a d s o f
B l a c k – B la c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g – C o n s u l ti n g E n g i n e e r s a n d P r o j e c t

Page 9 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M a n a g e r s . I t i s d a t e d th e 2 8 t h M a y 2 0 1 4 a d d r e s s e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f H u m a n S e tt l e m e n t Fr e e S ta t e w i t h t h e a d d r e s s :
“ D e a r Si r / M a d a m . R e q u e s t f o r a p p o i n t m e n t o n r i s k ,
a u d it

and

material

assessment,

[r e m o v a l ] ,

h a n d li n g

and

disposal

of
of

hazardous
asbestos

c o n ta m i n a t e d r u b b l e i n t h e Fr e e S ta t e Pr o v in c e . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

S o t h i s is t h e d o c u m e n t b y

B l a c k h e a d r e q u e s ti n g t o b e a p p o i n t e d a n d it w a s a d d r e s s e d t o th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t a s y o u h a v e s a i d .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w i f y o u m a y t u r n to p a g e 1 0 9 . 1 0 9

C h a ir. A n d y o u w il l s e e t h e r e i s a ls o a p a r a g r a p h w h ic h is d e d ic a t e d t o
d e a l w i th t h e b a c k g r o u n d m a t e r i a l a n d w o u ld – d i d y o u h a v e a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e a d w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d u n d e r th e r e h e a d in g “ B a c k g r o u n d ’
a n d w h e th e r t h a t – w o u l d t h a t a ls o a c c o r d to w h a t w a s c o n te m p l a t e d a t
t h e ti m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s I h a v e r e a d t h is a n d a s w e w il l c o n ti n u e
w e w il l d e m o n s tr a t e th a t i t w a s j u s t u s e d t o m o tiv a t e a n d m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h e r e is s o m e c o n c e r n , r e a l c o n c e r n f o r t h e p e o p l e o f t h e p r o v i n c e
20

when it is not so.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is r e la t io n to w h i c h p a r a g r a p h a t 1 0 9 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t is p a g e 1 0 9 C h a i r i n r e la t io n t o t h e

e n t ir e c o n t e n t s u n d e r h e a d i n g “ B a c k g r o u n d ” .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O h o k a y.

Page 10 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 109.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t th e p a g e I t h o u g h t i t m a y – I t h o u g h t i t w a s
a p a r ti c u l a r p a r a g r a p h ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r a g r a p h – o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s .

Now if I may refer you back Mr

D u k w a n a to y o u r s ta t e m e n t w i t h p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e t o p a g e 1 2 ? N o w
w e b e fo r e w e d e a l w i th a n y s p e c i f ic p a r a g r a p h s u n d e r t h a t – o n th a t
p a g e c a n y o u e x p l a i n t o th e C h a ir w h o is M r M p a m b a n i a n d w h o i s M r
10

S o d d i a n d w h e th e r o r n o t a r e t h e y s ti ll a l iv e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e – a s I in d ic a t e d e a r l ie r C h a ir t h a t M r

M p a m b a n i w e r e to g e t h e r w i t h M r S o d d i w e r e – h a d a j o in t v e n t u r e a n d
they submitted their proposal to the Free State Department as a joint
v e n tu r e a n d t h e – a n d t h e u n fo r tu n a t e th i n g is t h a t M r M p a m b a n i w a s
m e r c i le s s l y g u n n e d d o w n – g u n n e d d o w n in S a n d t o n o n t h e 2 2 n d J u n e
2 0 1 7 . A n d t h is i s th e p e r s o n a s I s a y I k n e w h i m v e r y w e ll a n d a ls o y o u
h a v e h is b u s i n e s s p a r t n e r M r E d w i n S o d i . I m u s t i n d i c a t e t h a t I h a v e
n e v e r m e t M r S o d i p e r s o n a lly b u t I b e li e v e h e is s ti ll a l iv e a n d y o u
k n o w m y p r o b l e m is I h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u k n o w w i t h t h is – t h i s k in d
20

o f a p r o j e c t th e – t h e c o m m is s i o n s h o u l d a ls o s u b p o e n a h i m t o e x p l a i n
t h e – t h e g e n e s i s o f th is p r o j e c t .

A n d n o w a s w e s p e a k C h a ir p e r s o n

t h e r e a r e l e g a l p r o c e e d in g s i n s ti t u te d a g a in s t th e e s t a te o f M r
M p a m b a n i b y h is p a r t n e r S o d i a t th e h ig h c o u r t G a u t e n g l o c a l d iv is i o n
in J o h a n n e b u r g . A n d I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e a m o u n t in is s u e is th e l a s t
p a y m e n t o f R 7 7 m il li o n p a r t o f t h e R 2 5 5 m il li o n t h a t w a s a d v a n c e d b y

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e Fr e e S ta t e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s in g a n d S e t tl e m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Was – was that amount part of the

m o n i e s w h ic h w e r e d e d ic a te d fo r t h i s a s b e s t o s s c h e m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e R 7 7 m i ll io n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No – I am – yes.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e R 7 7 m i ll io n i s p a r t o f t h e R 2 5 5 m il li o n

b u t t h a t w a s t h e fi n a l s e tt l e m e n t t h a t w a s p a i d f o r t h is p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e R 7 7 m i ll io n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o – s o a s – fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i t
s e e m s t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t o u t o f t h e R 2 5 5 m il li o n w a s p a i d to t h e
jo in t v e n tu r e o r t o B l a c k h e a d a n d th e r e w a s – o r w h a t w a s p a i d w a s
R 2 5 5 m il li o n l e s s R 7 7 mi ll i o n o r t h e w h o l e o f i t w a s p a i d b u t t h e r e is
R 7 7 m il li o n t h a t is s t il l i n is s u e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e w h o le a m o u n t w a s p a i d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t – t h e w h o l e a m o u n t b e i n g R 2 5 5 m il li o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Was paid in batches.

T h e w h o le a m o u n t

R 2 5 5 m il li o n w a s p a id t o th is j o in t v e n t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i t w a s p a i d i n b a tc h e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h is w a s t h e l a s t p a y m e n t t h e R 7 7

m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON: That was made?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th a t w a s m a d e to a d d u p a n d m a k e it R 2 5 5

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a k e i t R 2 5 5 o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M e a n i n g t h e w h o l e – t h e a m o u n t w a s p a id

b u t t h e l a s t p a y m e n t t o m a k e t h e R 2 5 5 m il li o n w a s th e o n e th a t
a m o u n t e d to R 7 7 m il li o n a n d th is is t h e o n e t h a t w a s – t h a t w a s
c o n te s t e d i n f a c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t t h e o th e r p a r t n e r w a n t s a b o u t h a lf o f

t h a t m o n e y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r
[i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe – I am sorry Mr Mokoena.

I ta k e i t t h a t t h i s

p r o j e c t r e l a t e d t o h o u s e s i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v in c e t h a t w e r e p r o v i d e d
t o – to c i t iz e n s o r r e s id e n c e b y t h e g o v e r n m e n t? I t a k e i t t h a t i t r e la t e d
t o t h e r e m o v a l o f a s b e s t o s o n th e r o o v e s o f h o u s e s t h a t w e r e p r o v i d e d
t o p e o p le b y g o v e r n m e n t m a y b e R D P h o u s e s , m a y b e t o w n s h i p h o u s e s
a n d s o o n o r i s t h a t n o t s o , it w a s m u c h w i d e r t h a n t h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

C a n I j u s t in d i c a t e C h a ir. D u r i n g th e – t h e

d a r k d a y s o f a p a r t h e i d s o m e o f t h e s e s e t tl e m e n t s , t h e h o u s e s th a t w e r e
b u il t t h e n m o s t o f t h e m w e r e r o o v e d i n a s b e s to s . I n K u tl w a n o n g w h e r e
I c o m e fr o m m y fa m i ly h o u s e is fo u r r o o m e d h o u s e th a t h a d a n
a s b e s to s r o o fi n g .

In t h e w h o l e e n t ir e a r e a o f P o l o k w a n e i t w a s

a s b e s to s r o o fi n g a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h e s e a l l o v e r a n d t h e m o s t – y o u
k n o w t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t t h i n g a ls o i s t h a t in e a c h a n d e v e r y

Page 13 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
m u n i c i p a li t y y o u w ill fi n d r e c o r d s o f th e s e t h i n g s .

They would know

e x a c tl y w h e r e t h e s e a s b e s t o s h o u s e s a r e a n d – a n d y o u w o u ld a l s o
u n d e r s t a n d i n f a c t e v e n i n t h e – in th e g o l d f i e l d s a r e a s o m e o f t h e
p i p e s [i n d is ti n c t ] a n d a l l t h e p ip e s t h a t w e r e t h e r e w e r e a s b e s to s
c e m e n t p i p e s a n d t h a t c r e a t e d a p r o b le m e s p e c i a l ly w it h r e g a r d to t h e
f a c t t h a t t h e r e i s m o v e m e n t . It i s a m i n i n g a r e a a n d t h e s e m o v e m e n ts
c r e a te c r a c k s a n d in s o m e i n s ta n c e s y o u h a v e a c h a ll e n g e .

But also

t h e r e w a s a – th e r e is a t i m e li m i t t o t h e a s b e s t o s r o o fi n g . I f y o u g o to
s o m e h o u s e s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e o l d , t h e y b e c o m e r u ffl e d a n d th e n y o u
10

g o t t h is p r o d u c t c o m in g o u t a n d in h a l in g t h a t I a m t o l d t h a t i t i s v e r y
d a n g e r o u s f o r h u m a n b e in g s .

A n d t h a t it w a s b a n d i t is n o lo n g e r

s u p p o s e d t o b e u s e d . A n d I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e i n t e n t io n o f t h e p r o j e c t
w a s t o ta k e a w a y t h e s e a n d – a n d b u i ld n e w r o o v e s th a t w i ll n o t b e
a s b e s to s .

A n d e v e n f o r d is p o s a l o f th e s e – t h is a s b e s to s m a t e r ia l

needs

p a r ti c u l a r

a

process.

Yo u

cannot

just

d is p o s e

them

a n y w h e r e .u s e d . A n d I u n d e r s to o d t h a t t h e i n t e n t io n o f t h e p r o j e c t w a s
t o ta k e a w a y t h e s e a n d – a n d b u il d n e w r o o v e s th a t w i ll n o t b e
a s b e s to s .

A n d e v e n f o r d is p o s a l o f th e s e – t h is a s b e s to s m a t e r ia l

n e e d s a p a r ti c u l a r p r o c e s s . Yo u c a n n o t ju s t d is p o s e th e m a n y w h e r e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t m y q u e s ti o n w a s w h e t h e r t h e p r o j e c t w a s

a i m e d a t th e r e m o v a l o f a s b e s to s r o o v e s f r o m h o u s e s t h a t h a d b e e n
provided by government whether it was the apartheid government or the
n e w g o v e r n m e n t o r w h e t h e r t h e id e a e x t e n d e d t o p r iv a t e h o u s e s .

So

d i d y o u r – o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u n e v e r g o t t o u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e y w e r e d o i n g a ll h o u s e s t h a t w e r e b u il t

Page 14 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
u s i n g a s b e s t o s a n d t o my r e c o l l e c ti o n t h e r e is n o h o u s e t h a t I k n o w
t h a t – t h a t i t is a p r iv a te h o u s e b u il t b y a p r i v a t e in d iv i d u a l t h a t h a s
a s b e s to s h o u s e . M o s t o f t h e s e h o u s e s w e r e m u n ic ip a l h o u s e s o r l o c a l
government houses.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w a t th e ti m e w h e n M r M p a m b a n i
y o u s a y t h a t h e w a s k i ll e d i n S a n d t o n w a s h e s ti ll t h e m e m b e r o r th e
10

m e m b e r o f t h e Bl a c k h e a d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C o n s u l ti n g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s , y e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e r e i s a f u r th e r d o c u m e n t t h a t I w a n t
t o r e f e r y o u t o M r – if y o u m a y t u r n t o p a g e 9 4 ? A n d i f y o u a r e – i f y o u
c a n a ls o i d e n ti f y t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r u s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is – t h i s d o c u m e n t is fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n ts Fr e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e a d d r e s s e d t o t h e C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r Bl a c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g C o m p a n y t h a t i s t h e J V. A n d to

20

t h e a t t e n t io n o f M r E d w i n S o d i.

A n d i t – th e h e a d in g t h e r e is

“ I n s tr u c ti o n to P e r fo r m W o r k in P W / - 0 0 1 [ p h a s e 1 ] A u d i t a n d A s s e s s m e n t
o f A s b e s t o s o f H o u s in g U n i ts ” .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O h y e s a n d if y o u tu r n o n p a g e 9 5 a n d

w h o s ig n s t h e l e t t e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e le t t e r h e r e is - I d o n o t k n o w i f i t is h i s

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s ig n a tu r e - b u t i t is s ig n e d b y M o k h e s i , N M o k h e s i .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e t h a t - I th i n k th e fir s t s e n t e n c e o f p a g e 9 4 i n

t h a t l e t t e r s e e m s t o g iv e ( f o r e g r o u n d n o is e ) t o t h e q u e s t i o n th a t I a s k e d
a f e w m in u t e s a g o .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t s e e m s t o b e a d d r e s s i n g t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a i r t h e r e a p p e a r s to b e - Mr M a n y i

m i g h t w a n t to s a y s o m e t h in g to t h e - t o th e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o m e f o r w a r d .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : C h a ir w i ll r e c a ll t h a t t h e - y e s t e r d a y m y s e l f o n
record.

S o r r y, C h a ir.

I a p o l o g is e f o r th a t.

C h a ir w il l r e c a l l th a t t h e

r e c o r d y e s t e r d a y r e fl e c t e d t h a t I in p r e s e n c e o f M r S i m i le B a la ( ? ) S C
o n b e h a l f o f t h e D G o f t h e F r e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t a n d a ls o o n m y o w n
p r i v a t e in s tr u c ti o n s o n M r S e o e a s w e l l.

I have just received

in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m t h e H O D t h a t h a s b e e n - j u s t b e e n m e n t io n e d b y th e
20

w i t n e s s b e fo r e y o u th a t t h e n o ti c e c o n t r a r y t o w h a t w a s p l a c e d o n
r e c o r d y e s t e r d a y b y t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r t h a t a l l t h e p e o p le t h a t w e r e
m e n ti o n e d i n c lu d in g M r M o k h e s i r e c e i v e d t h e n o t e - n e c e s s a r y n o t ic e .
U n f o r t u n a t e ly i t tr a n s p i r e d a n d i t w a s c o n f ir m e d t h i s m o r n i n g
t h a t M r M o k h e s i h a s n e v e r r e c e iv e d i t a n d it w a s p o s e d t o th e e v id e n c e
le a d e r t h a t in d e e d t h e n o t ic e w e n t t o a n in c o r r e c t w r o n g a d d r e s s a n d a s

Page 16 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a r e s u l t M r M o k h e s i d i d n o t r e c e iv e th e n o t ic e a n d h a s j u s t b e e n d r a f t e d a l e t t e r t h a t h a s b e e n t o th e C o m m is s i o n s t a ti n g t h a t f a c t t h a t
M r M o k h e s i h a s n o t r e c e iv e d t h e n o ti c e .
T h e C h i e f D i r e c t o r o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t is b e f o r e - i s i n t h e
a tt e n d a n c e o f th e p r o c e e d i n g s .

W e j u s t w a n te d to b r i n g t h a t t o t h e

a tt e n ti o n o f th e C h a i r t h a t i n d e e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : A s m u c h a s i t h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e - o n t h e
r e c o r d y e s t e r d a y M r M o k h e s i h a s n o t r e c e iv e d th e n o t ic e a n d a s s u c h
10

c o u l d n o t a d e q u a t e ly r e s p o n d t o t h e a ll e g a ti o n s r e fe r r i n g t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . I - I t a k e …
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M o k o e n a th e le g a l t e a m h a s n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o

a p p ly th e i r m i n d s t o t h e ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o t a t a ll C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t w a s th e o n ly t h i n g b u t a ll th a t w e h a v e
C h a ir a s p e r s c h e d u l e t h a t w a s r e c e i v e d fr o m th e s e c r e ta r i a t a n d a l l
e ffo r t s w e r e d o n e a n d t h e n a m e s o b v i o u s l y a n d th e a d d r e s s e s a r e n o t
20

t h u m b s u c k e d . S o th e r e i s a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t t h e r e is a n e m a i l th a t w a s
provided …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E m a i l a d d r e s s a n d a c c o r d in g t o w h a t w e
h a v e s u b m i t te d i n g o o d f a it h i s - is t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 17 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 26 days before this hearing …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n o t ic e w a s s e n t i n th e n a m e o f

M r T h a b o to Th a b o - to Th a b o M o k h e s i a n d - a n d t h e r e i s a n e m a i l
a d d r e s s b u t t o th e e x t e n t t h a t i t m a y b e fo u n d t h a t t h e e m a i l a d d r e s s i s
in c o r r e c t . W e - w e s t il l h a v e to v e r i fy th o s e f a c t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e a s s u r e M r M o k h e s i t h a t h i s r i g h t s w il l
s t il l b e m a in t a i n e d .
10

H e w il l b e e n t it l e d t o f il e a n y o t h e r th i n g a n d t o

c o n te s t w h a te v e r e v i d e n c e .

H e c a n s t il l e v e n a p p l y t o c r o s s - e x a m in e

t h is w i t n e s s o r to e x e r c is e a n y o f h is r ig h ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t - th e i d e a w a s ju s t t o
place on record
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And to do nothing more.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o th in g m o r e s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Just so that maybe if and when he - if he

r e s p o n d s la t e o r t h a t c o u ld b e u n d e r s t o o d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

I n f a c t C h a ir t h e - t h e n a m e t h a t h a s b e e n

m e n ti o n e d i s a n i n c o r r e c t n a m e .

H is n a m e is N th i m o ts e a n d n o t

Thabo Mokhesi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : S o i t w e n t to a w r o n g p e r s o n a l t o g e t h e r C h a ir.

Page 18 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - s o y o u s a y h e is H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a n d
h e is th is s u r n a m e b u t th e n a m e is w r o n g ?
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : I n d e e d s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ; b u t - b u t a m I c o r r e c t t o s a y y o u ju s t w a n t e d t o
p l a c e it o n r e c o r d s o th a t m a y b e i f h e t a k e s t i m e b e fo r e h e r e s p o n d s
t h a t w o u ld b e u n d e r s t o o d ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : I n d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : A s - a ls o b e c a u s e t h e - i t m i g h t e m a n a t e t h a t
t h e a l l e g a ti o n s th a t a r e g o i n g to b e m a d e a g a in s t h i m w i ll b e - w il l b e o f
( in d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h a t w il l a ls o b e p a r t o f - y o u k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

A g a i n s t h is r i g h ts r e a l ly t o h a v e r e s p o n d e d

before …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

Those

a ll e g a ti o n s

i m p l ic a t i n g n a t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : I n d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 19 of 278

were

made

of

an

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir w e u n d e r s ta n d . W e w il l m a k e s u r e
that
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e is a ff o r d e d a l l h is r ig h ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w e w i ll n o t t a k e a n y i s s u e s h o u l d h e
w a n t to p a r tic i p a t e i n th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And if it is the wrong address he …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d h e w a n t s t o p a r ti c i p a t e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e w o u l d b e a ll o w e d t o d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k w h a t - w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e is s o m e b o d y
in t h e l e g a l t e a m m u s t i n v e s ti g a te t h e - t h e a l le g a t i o n t h a t i t w e n t t o a
wrong address and then at some stage I must just be informed what the
p o s i ti o n i s .
A D V P H I L L P M O K O E N A S C : W e w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t b e f o r e t h e e n d o f
today …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A ll t h a t is b e e n d o n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t t h is c a n p e r m it u s t o p r o c e e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W it h e v id e n c e C h a ir.

Page 20 of 278

Mr Dukwana we

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w e r e a t t h e - a t t h e s ta g e w h e r e w e a r e d e a l in g w it h p a g e 9 4 if I a m n o t
m is t a k e n a n d t h e C h a ir w a s c o n f ir m in g t h a t s o m e o f t h e p a r a g r a p h s
t h a t y o u h a v e r e a d a ls o a d d r e s s e d t h e i s s u e s t h a t h e w a s a s k i n g y o u .
A m I c o r r e c t?
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

I - I w a s s a y i n g t h a t t h e fir s t s e n t e n c e o f t h e

le t t e r a t p a g e 9 4 s e e ms t o a d d r e s s a q u e s t io n th a t I p u t t o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr D u k w a n a . N a m e l y i t s a y s :
“ T h e I P W - 0 0 1 s e r v e s to i n s tr u c t y o u t o a u d i t a l l
p r e - 1 9 9 4 G o v e r n m e n t i s s u e d h o u s in g u n i ts . ”

10
So …

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t d o e s l o o k th a t i t r e l a te d to h o u s e s t h a t w e r e

p r o v i d e d b y G o v e r n m e n t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d t h e n I w a s r e f e r r in g y o u t o p a g e
9 4 b e f o r e w e h a d to d e a l w i th t h i s - t h e i s s u e o f t h e s a v i n g s a n d y o u
s a i d o n p a g e 9 4 th e - t h e n a m e th a t is - is i n d ic a te d a s t h e p e r s o n w h o
is t h e a u t h o r is M r N M o k h e s i . A m I r i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e r i g h t s ir.
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d h e is a ls o i n d ic a te d a s th e H e a d o f
D e p a r t m e n t a t th e ti m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w c r u c i a l ly a n d t o t h is l e t te r i t is a ls o
t h e d a t e . I f y o u c a n m e n ti o n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t i s t h e d a te o f th e l e t te r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .

Page 21 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d s p e a k i n g u n d e r c o r r e c t io n a n d I
know that you are the person who might have knowledge. Please assist
m e . W o u l d I b e c o r r e c t t h a t fr o m 1 5 D e c e m b e r o n w a r d s o n e w o u l d n o t
fi n d a n y b u i l d i n g o r c o n s tr u c t io n y o u k n o w p r o c e s s e s b e i n g u n d e r t a k e n
during that period?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o r m a l ly C h a ir p e r s o n h a v in g w o r k e d i n

G o v e r n m e n t t h e - w h e n i t c o m e s t o 1 5 D e c e m b e r m o s t c o n tr a c to r s y o u
know …
CHAIRPERSON: They shut down?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e y s h u t d o w n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Fo r t h e h o l id a y s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e y w il l s ta r t i n J a n u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar o u n d m i d - J a n u a r y …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n m o s t c a s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t n e c e s s a r i ly ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t w i ll b e t h e f ir s t w e e k o f J a n u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , fi r s t w e e k o f J a n u a r y ?

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n f a c t y o u w il l s e e a l s o e v e r y ti m e w e p l a n
a n y th in g y o u m a k e s u r e t h a t D e c e m b e r is - is y o u k n o w e v e r y b o d y
s lo w s d o w n a n d i n J a n u a r y b e c a u s e y o u a r e d e a li n g a ls o w i t h th e
fi n a n c i a l y e a r s t h e G o v e r n m e n t o n e - t h e Pr o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d

Page 22 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
N a t io n a l I th i n k i t i s A p r il a n d t h e n J u n e i t is - i t i s L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t.
S o p e o p le m a k e s u r e t h a t b e c a u s e y o u k n o w y o u a r e lo s i n g
ti m e i n D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a r y.

S o n o r m a lly p e o p l e w a k e u p i n

F e b r u a r y a n d s t a r t w o r k in g s e r i o u s ly i n F e b r u a r y.

So December and

J a n u a r y a r e a c t u a ll y - s o m e ti m e s w e r e f e r to t h e m a s d e a d m o n t h s .
Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w w o u l d i t m a k e s e n s e th a t a n

in s t r u c t i o n is g iv e n o n t h a t d a t e ?

I f y o u lo o k a t t h e d a t e a n d y o u - I

m e a n y o u c o r r e la t e t h a t d a te w it h w h a t y o u h a v e s t a te d t o t h e C h a ir.
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . T h e r e w il l b e n o th in g u n t o w a r d b e c a u s e
d u r i n g t h a t ti m e i t d e p e n d s w h a t - w h a t d a y G o v e r n m e n t w o u ld y o u
k n o w o p e r a t e a t a - a s k e l e to n s ta ff b u t i n m o s t c a s e s a n d a ls o w i t h t h e
P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t e s p e c ia ll y w it h th e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l w h e n it
g o e s t o t h e 1 5 t h m o s t o f u s - i t d e p e n d s w h o w o u ld h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h a t
w e w ill b e a v a il a b l e .
A f t e r t h e - t h e 1 5 t h m o s t o f t h e p e o p le a r e o n h o l i d a y. T h e r e
w i ll b e a s k e le t o n s ta ff t h a t i s o p e r a ti n g i n - i n G o v e r n m e n t . I t d o e s n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n t h a t G o v e r n m e n t c l o s e s d o w n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w …

20

CHAIRPERSON:

I - I do not know whether Mr Mokoena you intend to

a s k h i m t o r e a d t h is le t t e r. I t s e e ms t o b e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s d e f in i te ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Q u i t e i m p o r ta n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t is t h e - t h a t w a s t h e n e x t t h i n g i n

li n e . N o w i f y o u t u r n b a c k to p a g e 9 4 a n d t a k e u s th r o u g h t h e c o n t e n ts

Page 23 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
o f th a t le t t e r a n d p le a s e w h e r e n e c e s s a r y p l e a s e y o u k n o w b e a t la r g e
to comment.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : P a r a g r a p h 1 :
“ A u d i t a s s e s s a n d G P S a ll p r e - 1 9 9 4 G o v e r n m e n t … ”
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. O k a y. I a m s o r r y M r - I t h in k y o u m u s t s t a r t

w h e r e i t s t a r ts :
“This IPW … ”
T h e n o n e w i ll u n d e r s t a n d i t p r o p e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O h .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Before …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
you

to

audit

“ T h is I P W - 0 0 1 s e r v e s t o i n s tr u c t
a ll

pre-1994

h o u s i n g u n it s a s f o l l o w s :

Government

issued

one, audit assess and

G P S a ll p r e - 1 9 9 4 G o v e r n m e n t h o u s i n g u n it s in t h e
p r o v i n c e a t a r a t e o f R 8 5 0 , 0 0 VAT e x c l u s iv e p e r u n i t
u p to a m a x i m u m o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i ts . T h i s i s th e t o ta l
v a l u e o f t h e m o n e y 2 5 5 m il li o n VAT e x c lu s i v e
h e r e in a f t e r t o b e r e fe r r e d to a s t h e t o t a l p r o j e c t
20

c o s t w il l b e p a y a b le f o r a ll a u d i t e d u n i ts a n d it
should

be

n o te d

that

a ll

asbestos

u n i ts

are

e x p e c te d to b e a u d i t e d in t h e p r o v in c e . ”
N o w C h a ir p e r s o n th is is v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y I
s a i d t h is is a h e i s t . W e a s s u m e t h a t n o b o d y k n o w s h o w m a n y o f t h e s e
u n i ts a r e a n d t h e i n te n ti o n t h e r e is t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e e r a d ic a t e

Page 24 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e s e u n it s a n d th a t is w h a t y o u w a n t a s - a s a p r o v i n c e .
c a n n o t l i m i t i t to 3 0 0 0 0 0 .

Now you

Yo u c a n n o t a l s o - t h is c a n n o t b e a m a g ic

n u m b e r.
I t m u s t b e u n d e r s to o d w h y t h e y e n d e d to 3 0 0 0 0 0 a n d I w i ll
t e ll y o u i t i s b e c a u s e o f th e a m o u n t t h a t w a s g iv e n w a s 2 5 5 0 0 0 - 2 5 5
m il li o n fo r th is .

S o p e o p l e h a d t o w o r k t h is t h in g b a c k w a r d s .

I f i t is

2 5 5 m i ll i o n t h a t w e h a v e . Yo u th e n d iv i d e t h a t b y R 8 5 0 ,0 0 . I t w il l t h e n
g iv e y o u t h e m a x i m u m u n i ts t h a t w i ll b e 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i t s e x a c t ly.
N o w w h a t t h e s e p e o p le - w h a t t h i s is h a p p e n i n g h e r e a n d t h e
10

- a n d - a n d t h e p r i c e r a t e is g i v e n t h e r e a n d - a n d y o u e x p e c te d th a t a l l
a s b e s to s u n i ts w il l b e - s h o u ld b e a u d i t e d . I f - th e q u e s ti o n is - if th e
a s b e s to s u n i ts g o b e y o n d 3 0 0 0 0 0 w h a t w i l l b e t h e c a s e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i n t h is c a s e w h a t i s v e r y i n te r e s ti n g is is th a t y o u - y o u a r e s a y i n g p e o p l e s h o u l d g o a n d a u d i t a n d t h e a m o u n t
is

th is .

C h a ir p e r s o n

the

C o n s t i tu t io n

demands

of

Government

e s p e c i a l ly t h o s e w h o a r e g iv e n t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty to b e - t o b e v e r y
e ffic i e n t , e ffe c tiv e e c o n o m i c a l a n d in t e r m s o f d e a l in g w i t h t h e p u b li c
purse.
N o w t h i s c o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e t h e o t h e r w a y.

20

Th e - e v e r y

m u n i c i p a li t y h a s w a r d c o m m i t t e e s . I t h a s w a r d c o u n c il l o r s . I f y o u d o
n o t h a v e t h is k in d o f in f o r m a ti o n a t y o u r d is p o s a l e i th e r c o m i n g fr o m
t h e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t o r l o c a l m u n ic i p a li t ie s t h is c o u l d h a v e b e e n
guarded.

T h e i n f o r m a t io n c o u ld h a v e b e e n g u a r d e d u s in g t h e p e o p l e

t h a t a r e th e r e a t th e lo c a l l e v e l w i t h o u t p a y in g a c e n t a n d h a v i n g d o n e

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t h a t a n d h a v i n g d o n e t h a t y o u w ill th e n k n o w h o w m a n y o f t h e h o u s e s
are asbestos.
Then you can do the GPS that you want to do but also we are
liv in g i n a - i n a v e r y i n te r e s t in g t i m e - i n - i n i n t e r e s t in g t i m e s . Yo u
c a n a c t u a ll y G o o g l e th is a n d y o u c a n g e t a l l t h is i n f o r m a ti o n y o u k n o w
u s i n g d e s k t o p r e s e a r c h . Yo u c a n d o i t a n d y o u w il l g e t a l l t h e d e t a ils
b u t I a m j u s t s a y in g it is v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g t h a t t h e f i g u r e p u t u p h e r e t h e
t o t a l n u m b e r o f h o u s e s a u d i t - t h a t s h o u l d b e a u d i te d .
I t m e a n s y o u j u s t c o u n ti n g th e s e h o u s e s .
10

Yo u p a y - p e r

h o u s e y o u p a y R 8 5 0 , 0 0 t o d o t h e a u d i ti n g a n d j u s t t o m a k e i t l o o k v e r y
e x p e n s iv e y o u p u t i n t h e G P S t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h is G P S - a u d i t a s s e s a n d G P S a ll p r e - 1 9 9 4
G o v e r n m e n t h o u s i n g u n i ts in t h e p r o v in c e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A u d i t - a u d it t h a t o n e u n d e r s ta n d s . I f th e i d e a w a s t o
r e m o v e a ll a s b e s to s .

W h a t w o u l d b e th e r e t o a s s e s s ?

Is - i s t h e

p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t y o u s i m p ly n e e d e d to i d e n ti fy a ll t h e h o u s i n g u n i ts t h a t
h a d a s b e s t o s o r if y o u h a d a l i m i ta t io n o n th e n u m b e r y o u i d e n t i fy
300 000?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n t h is i s - t h i s is …
CHAIRPERSON:

O r d o - d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t it m e a n s t h i s a s s e s

to say it must be assessed? What were they supposed to assessed - to
assess?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I th i n k t h e - y o u k n o w t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e

m o r e y o u p r o b e i n to t h is y o u w i ll fi n d t h e r e a s o n w h y w e a r e c a ll i n g i t a

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h e is t . T h e - i f y o u - y o u a u d i t y o u a s s e s s m e a n i n g y o u i d e n t i fy t h e s e
h o u s e s a n d y o u a r e a b l e t o l o c a te th e m u s i n g th e G P S .

Yo u w o u ld

k n o w w h e r e t h e s e h o u s e s a r e a n d y o u w o u ld k n o w t h e s tr u c t u r e . S o m e
o f t h e s e h o u s e s w o u l d b e - t h e f o u n d a t i o n s w o u l d b e p o o r e tc e te r a .
S o i f y o u w e r e t o r e m o v e th e - th e r o o f - t h e r o o fs y o u w o u l d
a ls o a ffe c t t h e - t h e s tr u c tu r e - t h e w h o l e s tr u c t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is w h e r e th e a s s e s s m e n t c o m e s in …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

To s a y i t is n o t e n o u g h t o ju s t id e n ti fy t h a t th is

p a r t ic u l a r h o u s e h a s a s b e s t o s . Yo u h a v e g o t t o a ls o l o o k a t t h e w h o l e
u n i t a n d s e e w h e t h e r i f y o u r e m o v e th e a s b e s t o s y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to
a ffe c t t h e w h o l e s tr u c t u r e o r - s o th a t y o u - y o u c a n s e e w h e th e r y o u
m a y e n d u p h a v in g to r e p l a c e th e w h o le h o u s e o r s o m e t h i n g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . W h a t - w h a t y o u w il l fi n d in th e w h o l e
t h i n g C h a ir p e r s o n is - is t h a t t h e - t h e s e p e o p l e w h o g e t i n to a h o u s e
and some of the houses people would have made some improvements.
T h i s n e i g h b o u r w o u l d h a v e a n a s b e s to s r o o f .

T h is o n e w o u ld n o t

n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e th a t o n e . N o w w h a t is v e r y i n te r e s t i n g t o lo o k i n to t h e
m a t t e r is i f I a m t h e p e r s o n g iv e n t h e t a s k t o d o th e - t h e a u d i t o r t h e
20

assessment.
Yo u - t h e r e is n o n e e d f o r y o u to - y o u j u s t lo o k a t th e r o o f
a n d y o u fi n d i t is n o t a s b e s t o s . S o y o u w o u l d n o t g e t p a i d t h e 8 5 0 fo r
ju s t d o i n g t h a t b u t g e t ti n g t o t h e a s b e s t o s h o u s e y o u id e n t i fy th e
a s b e s to s h o u s e .

Yo u w il l t h e n ta k e t h e p h o t o s e tc e te r a o f th is

a s b e s to s h o u s e to e x a c tl y k n o w w h a t t h e c o n d it i o n s a r e o f t h e h o u s e

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b u t f o r y o u t o g e t i n t o a h o u s e a n d th e n y o u - I m e a n y o u c a n j u s t g o
a n d y o u k n o w i n th e to w n s h i p y o u h a v e - t h is t o w n s h ip h a s 2 0 0 h o u s e s .
Yo u t h e n g o t o th e 2 0 0 h o u s e s . T h is - th is n u m b e r r e l a t e s t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 r e l a t e s t o a l l t h e p r o v i n c i a l - t h e h o u s e s i n t h e Pr o v in c e o f
t h e F r e e S t a t e i n t h e f iv e d is tr ic ts t h a t w e h a v e i n a ll t h e m u n i c i p a li t ie s .
S u r e l y y o u h a v e m o r e th a n 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s . S o s p e c i fi c a ll y f o r y o u t o
b e - t o - t o b e v e r y e ff ic ie n t a n d e ff e c t iv e in d o in g t h i s w h a t y o u w il l
t h e n d o y o u w o u l d g a t h e r t h e i n fo r m a t io n a s - a s a r e s p o n s i b l e
d e p a r t m e n t.
Yo u w il l g a t h e r t h e i n fo r m a ti o n e v e n b e fo r e y o u g i v e t h e j o b

10

t o th e p e o p le . Yo u w o u l d k n o w t h a t y o u h a v e g o t th e s e h o u s e s a n d y o u
w i ll d ir e c t t h e m to s a y i n th e Fr e e S t a te w e h a v e s o m a n y o f t h e s e
h o u s e s t h a t - t h a t a r e a s b e s t o s . T h e n y o u c a n d ir e c t t h e m t o d o t h e ir
a s s e s s m e n t e tc e te r a b u t h e r e a l l t h a t w a s d o n e g o - i t i s - y o u k n o w it
is e a s y.
Yo u g o e v e r y h o u s e a n d p e o p l e w il l s a y i n W e lk o m w e - w e
w e n t fo r 5 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s .

W e o n ly fo u n d - a s a n e x a m p l e - w e o n l y

f o u n d 3 0 0 h o u s e s w i th a s b e s to s b u t t h e r e s t i s a ls o c o v e r e d i n te r m s o f
being paid because you have done - you have just audited - you know
20

y o u i d e n ti f ie d t h e h o u s e a n d th e n i t i s a s b e s t o s a n d t h e n y o u d o t h a t .
S o it is n o t a s b e s to s b u t i t is a n u m b e r.
3 0 0 0 0 0 t h e p r o j e c t is d o n e .

Once you get to

S o t h e - t h e w h o l e t h i n g i t s e l f i s ju s t a

s c h e m e t o j u s ti fy w h a t a c t u a ll y t h e s e g u y s w e r e lo o ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e p o i n t s
are.

Yo u s e e m t o w a n t t o m a k e a c e r ta i n p o i n t w i t h r e f e r e n c e to th e

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c h o ic e o f t h e f ig u r e 3 0 0 0 0 0 …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d t h e a m o u n t 2 5 0 m il li o n . I - I - w o u l d i t n o t
b e n o r m a l t o f ir s t s a y h o w m u c h b u d g e t h a v e w e g o t t h a t w e c a n p u t
a s i d e fo r t h i s k i n d o f p r o je c t a n d i f y o u s a y w e ll w e c a n p u t a s i d e 2 5 5
m il li o n . S a y o k a y 2 5 5 m i lli o n a n d t h e n s a y h o w m a n y h o u s i n g u n i ts a r e
t h e r e t h a t r e q u ir e t h i s k i n d o f p r o j e c t . Yo u i d e n t i fy th e m .
M a y b e i f t h e - if th e a m o u n t t h a t y o u h a v e s e t a s i d e w i ll b e
e n o u g h t o d o a l l o f th e m t h e n t h a t is f i n e b u t i f t h e a m o u n t t h a t y o u
10

h a v e s e t a s id e w i ll n o t b e e n o u g h t o h a v e a l l o f t h e m d o n e th e n y o u s a y
o u t o f 4 0 0 0 0 0 w e w il l o n ly b e a b le t o d o 3 0 0 0 0 0 .

S o I j u s t w a n t to

c h e c k w h e t h e r t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g I m i s s e d .
I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h a t is - t h e r e w o u ld b e n o th i n g
unusual about that approach.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o t h a t th e - in t h e n o r m a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s it
w i ll n o t b e ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r n o r m a l c i r c u ms t a n c e s it w ill n o t b e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : U n d e r n o r m a l c i r c u m s t a n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i n t h is c a s e w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o d r iv e a t
is y o u h a v e a D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e tt l e m e n t i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e . Yo u
h a v e m u n ic i p a l i ti e s .

Yo u h a v e th is - th is n o b l e i d e a o f r e m o v i n g t h e

a s b e s to s h o u s e s . T h e f ir s t n o r m a l t h i n g t h a t y o u w il l d o t o m a k e s u r e
you get the best for the money as a province before you give it to any
o th e r p e r s o n t o d o th is s p e c i a lis e d t h in g .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
Yo u w i ll t h e n i d e n t i fy a ll t h e h o u s e s t h a t h a v e a s b e s t o s in t h e
province.

Th e - th e l ik e l ih o o d - s a y it - i t g e ts to - y o u f in d th a t y o u

o n ly h a v e 6 0 0 0 0 C h a i r o r y o u h a v e 1 0 0 0 0 0 o f t h e s e h o u s e s t h a t a r e
a s b e s to s r o o f e d h o u s e s . Th e n i t m e a n s t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y t h a t y o u
w o u ld h a v e b u d g e te d w o u ld n o t - w o u l d b e m o r e th a n e n o u g h f o r y o u t o
d o t h is b u t if y o u s ta r t t h e p r o j e c t a n d I a m - I a m s a y i n g t h i s i f t h e r e is
n o u r g e n c y a n d y o u c r e a te t h a t u r g e n c y I a m - I a m a b o u t t o b e i n - i n
S e p te m b e r I w i ll b e 5 5 .
I s t a y e d in th e a s b e s t o s h o u s e . I w a s b o r n in t h a t h o u s e a n d
10

I s t a y e d t h e r e u p u n t il I m o v e d o u t i n 1 9 9 3 a n d th e r e h a s n o t b e e n a n y
u r g e n c y. I th i n k - I d o n o t th in k t h e r e w il l b e a n y u r g e n c y in t h i s c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o w h a t I a m tr y in g to s a y C h a ir p e r s o n is …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e - t h e d e p a r t m e n t b e i n g a r e s p o n s i b l e

department …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W o u l d g e t t h e in f o r m a ti o n a n d g a t h e r th e

in f o r m a ti o n w i th o u t p a y in g th is a m o u n t o f m o n e y.
20

CHAIRPERSON: With - without …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: Without paying?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d th e n i t w o u ld h e l p t h e m i f t h e y f i n d th a t

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t h e y h a v e a c e r ta i n n u m b e r o f th e s e a s b e s t o s h o u s e s . R e m e m b e r i t i s
t h e - t h e w h o l e t h i n g is n o t a b o u t a u d i ti n g . T h e m o s t i m p o r ta n t t h i n g is
r e m o v i n g th e m . S o y o u d o n o t f o c u s a n a u d i ti n g a s s u c h . S p e n d a l o t
o f m o n e y o n a u d i ti n g th e h o u s e s . Yo u - y o u w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u
have these houses.
Yo u h a v e i d e n t if i e d t h e m .

Yo u h a v e - w h a t w e c a l l w a r d

c o m m i t t e e s . T h e y w o r k w i th w a r d c o u n c il lo r s a n d th e s e p e o p l e w o u ld
k n o w th e ir w a r d s a n d t h e y w o u ld b e a b le t o s a y i n W a r d 1 0 in W e l k o m
a n d M a tj h a b e n g w e h a v e 2 0 o f th e a s b e s t o s h o u s e s a n d t h e y c a n g i v e
10

you the addresses.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th e n - a n d t h e n y o u a r e a b l e t o g o o u t a n d a n d d o a - a n a d v e r t in th is c a s e t h a t y o u in t e n d e r a d ic a t i n g th e s e
a s b e s to s r o o fi n g a n d y o u a r e c a lli n g fo r p e o p l e . In t h i s c a s e t h e r e is
c o m p e ti t io n a n d y o u w il l g e t a b e tt e r p r ic e d e a l f o r th is b u t f o r y o u t o
d e c i d e fr o m t h e b e g in n in g th a t y o u o n ly - y o u h a v e 2 5 5 m i ll io n a n d g o
a n d a u d it .
S o w h a t t h e s e p e o p l e d id th e y b e c a u s e i t - y o u s t ip u l a t e t h a t
y o u m u s t a u d i t 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s . S o t h e y w e n t o u t a n d - a n d d id e x a c tly

20

t h a t . T h e y w e n t o u t a n d a u d i te d 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s . Yo u w i ll s e e a s w e
g e t t o t h e r e p o r t i t s e l f i t w il l t e l l y o u o f t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s a u d i t e d s o s o m a n y o f th e m a r e r o o fe d in a s b e s t o s . S o w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o g i v e t o
t h e C o m m is s i o n is th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ta k in g t h e t o t a l a m o u n t - n u m b e r o f h o u s e s

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t h e f i g u r e a n d t h e p r ic e w ill te ll y o u th e w h o l e s t o r y o f t h e - o f t h e
project.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : J a . If …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M r M o k o e n a I g u e s s t h a t m a y b e w e s h o u l d l e t
h i m r e a d t h e l e t te r …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d fi n is h i t b e fo r e c o m m e n ti n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t i t w il l b e m u c h e a s i e r a n d t h e n y o u …
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n c o m m e n t a f t e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e c a n c o m m e n t a f t e r b u t C h a ir b e c a u s e
o f t h is q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e p o s e d m a y b e l e t u s c l a r i f y t h e m a t th is
point …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i f a ll o w h i m t o d o th a t b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n u m b e r o f th in g s a r i s e s fr o m w h a t

Mr Dukwana has said.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

Now

would

one

understand

your

e v i d e n c e b e tt e r if y o u l o o k a t t h e fi g u r e 3 0 0 0 0 0 . T h a t a s a t t h i s t i m e
t h e r e w a s n o in f o r m a t io n a t th e d is p o s a l o f e i th e r th e d e p a r t m e n t o r t h e
v e r y s a m e e n ti ty b u t i n d e e d th e r e is a n e e d o r th e r e a r e 3 0 0 0 0 0
houses at least where you need to replace that asbestos.

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye t a n d a m o u n t h a s a ls o b e e n p l a c e d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . I t i s c l e a r th e r e w a s n o - th e r e w a s n o
in f o r m a ti o n i n t h e - i n th e d e p a r t m e n t f o r t h a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w in l in e t o th a t b e c a u s e C h a ir
h a s a s k e d y o u a l s o r e l e v a n t q u e s t i o n s . Tu r n t o p a g e 1 0 7 w h ic h m i g h t
a ls o c l a r if y s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t t h e C h a ir w a s - w a s p u t ti n g a n d
t h e a n s w e r s t h a t y o u p r o ffe r e d b u t t h e y m ig h t b e b e tt e r e x p l a i n e d w i t h
w h a t y o u s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 o f th a t l e t t e r.
10

If y o u c a n j u s t r e a d t h a t

le t t e r - p a r a g r a p h 1 o f i t o n ly.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ja.

C h a ir p e r s o n t h is p a r a g r a p h h e r e t h e -

the one that is headed:
“ R e q u e s t fo r A p p o i n t m e n t o n R is k … ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“ … A u d it a n d A s s e s s m e n t H a n d li n g

of Hazardous Material, Removal of Disposal of
A s b e s t o s C o n t a m i n a t e d R u b b l e i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e :
w e h a v e t h e p l e a s u r e in s u b m i tt i n g o u r r e q u e s t to
b e a p p o in t e d o n r i s k b a s is f o r t h e f o ll o w i n g :
20

the

a s s e s s m e n t a u d i t o f h o u s e s , r o o f e d u s i n g a s b e s to s
m a t e r i a l, t h e h a n d li n g a n d d i s p o s a l o f a s b e s t o s
s h e e t s to a n a p p r o v e d d e s ig n a te d d is p o s a l s i t e .
T h e s c o p e o f t h e w o r k e n ta il s t h e p h y s ic a l d o o r t o
door

c o u n ti n g ,

a s b e s to s

s a fe

removal

contaminated

and

building

Page 33 of 278

d is p o s a l
rubble

of
and

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a s b e s to s s h e e ts fr o m v a r i o u s to w n s h i p s a c r o s s th e
Fr e e S t a t e . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

S o w o u ld t h a t a ls o b e in li n e i n

w h a t y o u a r e t r y i n g t o c o n v e y t o th e C h a i r a s t o w h a t w a s e n v i s a g e d in
t h e a p p o i n t m e n t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C e r t a i n l y s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s . N o w m a y b e le t u s t h e n d o a s t h e

C h a ir h a s p r o p o s e d a n d p r o c e e d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 s o t h a t w e c a n p u t
t h e e n t ir e c o n te n ts o f th e l e tt e r i n a n d t h e r e a f t e r h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty
10

t o c o m m e n t o n a n y o th e r s p e c i fic p a r a g r a p h i n t h a t l e t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d n o t g o n e t o t w o if I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y. H a d
h e d o n e tw o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s w h a t I a m r e a d i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 . Yo u a r e r ig h t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : P a r a g r a p h 2 r e a d s :
“ T h e c o m m e n c e m e n t p e r io d fo r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w il l

20

be

e ff e c ti v e

fr o m

1 December 2014

to

3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 o r e a r li e r. ”
Number three:
“ Yo u a r e e x p e c t e d to s u b m i t a c o m p l e ti o n r e p o r t
w i t h i n tw o w e e k s fr o m t h e d a t e o f c o m p l e t io n o f t h e
project.”

Page 34 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
Number four:
“ 4 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e 5 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e to t a l p r o j e c t
cost

51

m i ll io n

commencement.

VAT

e x c lu s iv e

That

is

on

is

payable

on

1 December 2014

s u b j e c t w i t h s u b m is s i o n o f a v a li d ta x i n v o i c e a n d
v a l i d t a x c l e a r a n c e c e r ti fi c a t e . 6 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e 5 0
p e r c e n t o f t h e t o ta l p r o je c t c o s t 7 6 5 0 0 0 0 0 VAT
e x c lu s i v e

cost

w i ll

be

payable

as

progress

c e r t if ic a te n u m b e r t w o o n o r b e f o r e 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . ”
10

A n d n u m b e r s ix :
“ 4 0 % o f t h e 5 0 % o f th e t o t a l p r o je c t c o s t R 5 1 mi ll i o n VAT
e x c lu s i v e is p a y a b l e o n c o m m e n c e m e n t t h a t is o n th e 1
D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 s u b j e c t to s u b m i s s i o n o f a v a li d ta x i n v o ic e
a n d v a l i d t a x c l e a r a n c e c e r ti f ic a t e .

6 0 % o f t h e 5 0 % o f th e

t o t a l p r o je c t c o s t R 7 6 5 0 0 0 0 0 VAT e x c lu s iv e c o s t w il l b e
p a y a b le a s p r o g r e s s c e r ti fi c a t e n u m b e r tw o o n o r b e fo r e t h e 1 s t
o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d – n u m b e r s ix 4 0 % o f t h e 5 0 % o f t h e t o ta l
p r o j e c t c o s t t h a t i s R 5 1 m il li o n VAT e x c l u s i v e w i ll b e p a y a b le a s
a p r o g r e s s c e r ti f ic a te n u m b e r t h r e e o n o r b e f o r e t h e 1 s t o f M a y
20

2015.

60% of the 50% of the total project cost R76 500 000

VAT e x c l u s iv e w il l b e p a y a b le a s p r o g r e s s c e r ti f ic a te n u m b e r
f o u r s u b je c t t o s u b m i s s i o n o f t h e f in a l p r o j e c t ’s B o a r d o n o r
b e f o r e t h e 1 s t o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 . A m in i m u m li a b il i ty i n s u r a n c e o f a
m il li o n is r e q u ir e d .

I h o p e y o u ’ ll f i n d t h e a b o v e i n o r d e r o f

y o u r r e s p e c tiv e p u r p o s e s . R e g a r d s M M o g h a z i t h e H e a d o f

Page 35 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
D e p a r t m e n t, s i g n e d th e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w l e t ’s g o b a c k t o p a g e 9 4 a n d a ll o w

you to comment on any of the paragraphs that appear in there.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C a n I – b e fo r e I a d d r e s s th is C h a i r p e r s o n , i f

you

two

lo o k

at

paragraph

th e

com mencement

period

fo r

th e

a p p o i n t m e n t w il l b e e ff e c t iv e fr o m t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d th e n t h e l e t te r is d a t e d t h e 0 2 / 1 2 / 2 0 1 4 .

Ye s .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I’ d le a v e th a t , th a t i t ’s n o r m a l a ls o b u t i n

t h is c a s e I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e a s o n t h a t y o u d o n ’ t a p p o in t t h e m
fr o m t h e d a t e t h a t y o u s i g n e d t h e c o n tr a c t t h e n , y o u k n o w, t h e 1 s t o f
D e c e m b e r – w h a t c o m e s f ir s t i s t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e n y o u
s ig n th is o n th e 2 n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , s o I ’ m j u s t s a y i n g i t w o u l d h a v e
b e e n n o r m a l , i n f a c t i f th e – t h a t t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t w o u ld h a v e
g iv e n t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t d a te o n t h e 3 r d o r t h e 2 n d w h e n th e y r e c e iv e d
t h e le t t e r b u t t o c o m m e n c e o n t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r a n d t h e n t h e le t t e r i s
s ig n e d o u t .

M e a n i n g o n t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e a le t t e r

a n d th e n th e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r y o u s i g n i t a lr e a d y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Well part of what it raises might be the question of –

t h e q u e s t i o n y o u r a is e d e a r li e r a s t o w h a t w a s s o u r g e n t , w h y d id t h i n g s
have to be done in such a rush.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t a ls o f u n d a m e n t a ll y Mr D u k w a n a t h e

p o i n t th a t y o u ’ r e c e r ta i n ly m a k in g , g o t o p a g e 9 4 , is t h a t c le a r ly, if th is
is a n i n s tr u c ti o n l e t t e r to p e r f o r m c e r ta in d u t ie s , it s a y s fr o m 2 n d

Page 36 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
December then one would expect that any appointment cannot precede
t h is in s t r u c ti o n , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u ’r e c o r r e c t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s y o u s e e t h a t w h e n y o u g o t o

paragraph two the period appears to be the 1st of December a period
w h e n t h e r e w a s n o a n y in s t r u c t i o n t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n – t h a t c o u l d
h a v e g a v e t h e m t h e m a n d a t e to d o a n y t h i n g , is t h a t t h e p o i n t th a t
y o u ’r e m a k i n g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Th a t ’s th e p o i n t th a t I’ m m a k i n g .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w a n y o th e r is s u e y o u w i s h t o

comment?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e – y o u ’l l r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n th a t

w h e n th e y m a d e t h e i r p r o p o s a l th e y w e r e a s k i n g t o b e a p p o i n t e d o n r is k
a n d th e q u e s t io n th a t h a s b e e n w o r r y i n g m e i s t h a t o n c o m m e n c e m e n t,
t h e s e a r e p e o p le , w h e n th e y c o m e t o y o u t h e y s a y w e c a n d o i t o n
r is k … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d o n r is k m e a n t w h a t?

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I th in k th e y m ig h t h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y

a r e p r e p a r e d t o t a k e t h e r i s k , t h e y w i ll c o m m e n c e a n d t h e n y o u ’l l p a y
20

them at a later stage.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s w i t h o u t a n y d e p o s it o r a d v a n c e

payment?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Without any deposit or without an advance,

t h is w a s – th e y o ffe r e d t o d o th a t w h e n t h e y w e r e a s k in g f o r t h i s b u t
e v e n b e f o r e t h a t , y o u s a y i n g th e f ir s t p a y m e n t w ill g o o n th e 1 s t o r is

Page 37 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
p a y a b le o n c o m m e n c e m e n t, th e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . W h e n y o u s i g n
t h is t h i n g o n t h e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t a l s o i f o n e lo o k s a t w h a t t h e y w e r e g o in g to

d o in t e r m s o f h o w y o u e x p l a i n e d i t a t l e a s t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t, t h e
in it i a l t a s k w o u l d b e to i d e n ti fy t h e h o u s i n g u n i ts w it h a s b e s to s r o o fs
a n d m a y b e a t t h e s a m e t i m e d o th e a s s e s s m e n t th a t y o u ta lk e d a b o u t .
I w o u l d h a v e i m a g i n e d t h a t o n c e th e y h a d d o n e t h a t t h e n th e n e x t
p h a s e w o u l d b e th e r e m o v a l o f t h e a s b e s to s fr o m t h o s e id e n t i fi e d
h o u s i n g u n i ts .
10

S o o n e w o n d e r s w h y i t w a s i m p o r t a n t th a t – o r w h a t

ju s t i fic a ti o n t h e r e w a s t h a t t h e y s h o u ld b e p a i d b e f o r e t h e y c o u l d d o
any work at all.

S o m e t i m e s t h e ju s ti fi c a ti o n f o r s o m e p a y m e n t i n

a d v a n c e m i g h t b e t h a t t h e y w il l i n c u r c o s t s i n te r ms o f m a t e r ia l , I d o n ’t
k n o w i f t h e r e w o u l d b e a n y s i g n i fi c a n t c o s t f o r j u s t d o in g d o o r - t o - d o o r
t o id e n ti fy th e h o u s e s a n d a s s e s s i n g a n d t h e r e fo r e w h y t h e y w o u ld n ’t
b e r e q u ir e d t o f ir s t p e r f o r m c e r t a in t a s k s a n d o n c e t h e y h a v e p e r f o r m e d
t h o s e t a s k s a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t is s a ti s f ie d th a t th o s e t a s k s w e r e
p e r f o r m e d s a tis f a c t o r i ly th e n t h e y g e t p a i d , is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e
able to comment on?
MR
20

M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th a t is

w h a t I s a id

under normal

c ir c u m s ta n c e s s o m e o f th e s e t h i n g s w il l b e b e s t e x p l a i n e d a n d o n e w i ll
u n d e r s t a n d b u t b e c a u s e o f m a y th i n g s t h a t a r e a b n o r m a l t h a t a r e
h a p p e n in g t h i n g s l ik e t h is y o u l o o k a t t h e m c a r e f u lly a n d w a n t t o
u n d e r s t a n d a n d a s I s a y C h a ir p e r s o n , I’ m fi n d i n g i t v e r y d i ff ic u l t to
r e c o n c i l e t h e fa c t th a t I c o m e a n d I s a y, a p p o i n t m e o n r is k t o d o t h is
a n d t h e n y o u a p p o i n t m e b u t y o u th e n g o o u t to s a y I ’l l g i v e y o u m o n e y

Page 38 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
in a d v a n c e a n d if w e d o n ’ t s e e a n y th in g w r o n g t h e n I d o n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d
b e c a u s e t h e f a c t t h a t I c o m e to y o u th e r e w e r e n o p l a n s t o d o t h is i n
t h e d e p a r t m e n t i ts e lf a n d i t m e a n s th a t t h e w h o l e p r o j e c t w a s a ls o n o t
b u d g e t e d fo r b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t i ts e l f .

I t ’s a n u n f u n d e d m a n d a t e t h a t

b u t th e is s u e is , a s t h e L a te Mr M b a m b o i n d ic a te d th a t t h e y g o t m o n e y,
t h e y w e r e a b l e to s o u r c e m o n e y fr o m N a t io n a l .

So it means because

n o w w e h a v e – a n d it w a s f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t t h e y w e r e s a y i n g a p p o i n t
us on risk because they were assured that they would be paid.

So it

m e a n s th e s e p e o p l e w e r e p r e p a r e d t o s p e n d w h a t e v e r n e e d e d to b e
10

s p e n t a n d th e n a p p r o a c h G o v e r n m e n t a n d s a y, th e s a m e r e a s o n th a t I
s a i d , a n d s a y, w e h a v e t h e s e h o u s e s a n d t h e s e h o u s e s n o w n e e d t o –
w e n e e d to a s s e s s t h e m a n d d o w o r k b u t t h e a u d i t p a r t it ’s a n e a s y
w a y, y o u c a n a c t u a l ly, a s I s a y, y o u c a n a u d i t h o u s e s y o u h a v e 1 , 2 , 3
t a b le s h e r e b u t th a t o n e is b r o k e n a n d t h e n t h a t b r o k e n o n e n e e d s t o b e
fi x e d . S o y o u th e n g o to t h e – to w h o e v e r fix e s t h e t h i n g a n d s a y, n o w
fi x th e o n e b r o k e n ta b l e b u t f o r y o u t o ta k e a l l th is t h r e e t a b l e s w e h a v e
d o n e t h is n o w w e n e e d m o n e y f o r a l l t h e t h r e e ta b le s , t h e s e o n e s a r e
n o t b r o k e n b u t y o u ’r e g e t t in g p a i d th e s a m e a m o u n t j u s t b e c a u s e I w a s
able to count that there were three and I pay you but the most

20

i m p o r t a n t th in g t h a t is v e r y c r i ti c a l h e r e t o u n d e r s t a n d is , h o w d o y o u –
a s I s a id t h e r e ’s n o u r g e n c y, n u m b e r o n e , th e p e r s o n c o m e s w it h a n
u n s o li c i t e d b id , y o u d o n ’ t h a v e – i t w a s n o t b u d g e t e d fo r a n d t h e p e r s o n
s a y s t o y o u , a p p o in t m e I t a k e th e r is k , I t a k e th e r is k a w a y fr o m y o u
a s G o v e r n m e n t l e t m e p e r f o r m th is b u t w h e n y o u a p p o i n t t h e

person

w h o c a m e t o y o u w it h a ll t h i s , y o u t h e n p o i n t o u t h o w y o u w il l p a y h i m

Page 39 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
o r t h a t p e r s o n e v e n b e f o r e t h e y c o m m e n c e . Yo u s ig n t h e l e t t e r o n th e
2 n d o f D e c e m b e r, th e c o m m e n c e m e n t i s t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r a n d t h e n
y o u s a y I’ ll p a y y o u fr o m t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r, I ’l l p a y y o u th is a m o u n t
o f m o n e y a n d it ’s n o t j u s t a n y a m o u n t C h a i r p e r s o n , th is is R 5 1 m i lli o n o f
p u b lic m o n e y t h a t I ’ m g iv i n g to y o u . Yo u h a v e n o t e v e n s t a r t e d , I g i v e
y o u t h e R 5 1 m il li o n a l l th a t y o u m i g h t h a v e d o n e is g iv e m e a g u a r a n t e e
o f a m il li o n t h e n I g iv e y o u R 5 1 m i ll io n . Yo u h a v e a p e r s o n w h o g iv e s
y o u a m i ll io n a n d a s a g u a r a n te e y o u s t il l w a n t t o g i v e R 5 1 m i ll i o n
before
10

he

even

commences

and

th is

argument,

I’ m

making

it

d e li b e r a t e ly C h a i r p e r s o n , y o u w i ll s e e a t a la t e r s t a g e th e s a m e H e a d o f
D e p a r t m e n t r a is in g a p o i n t t h a t y o u c a n ’ t p a y a p e r s o n t h a t a p e r s o n
h a s n o t p e r f o r m e d a n d th is is th e s a m e p e r s o n w h o d e p o s e d t h e
a ffi d a v i t to t h e f a c t t h a t y o u c a n ’ t p a y f o r a s e r v i c e th a t h a s n o t - o r
g o o d s th a t h a v e n o t b e e n d e l iv e r e d b u t y o u d o t h e s a m e th i n g . S o I’ m
ju s t s a y i n g t h e r e is a lo t t h a t is n o t r i g h t w it h th is p r o j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Now with reference to that letter on

p a g e 9 4 is t h e r e a n y o th e r t h i n g th a t y o u w is h t o r a is e b e f o r e I p u t
s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s w h ic h I a l s o s e e k c l a r i t y fr o m y o u ?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o th a t ’s a ll .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w w h a t c o n f u s e s m e M r D u k w a n a is

t h a t i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 9 5 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t , y o u w ill s e e t h a t in
paragraph

s ix

and

seven

th e r e

are

f u r th e r

amounts

which

the

d e p a r t m e n t a p p e a r s t o b e c o m m i t ti n g i t s e l f t o p a y a n d w i th in – r e f e r r i n g
t o c e r ta in m i l e s to n e s a n d i t a ls o p r o v i d e s t h e d a t e o f th e p a y m e n t o f

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h o s e a m o u n t s , c a n y o u s e e th e m ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s I d o .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

L e t’s t a k e t h e fir s t o n e b e i n g th e

a m o u n t w h ic h w o u l d b e p a i d o f R 5 1 m il li o n o n o r b e f o r e t h e 1 s t o f M a y
2 0 1 5 , a l r i g h t . N o w h a v in g t h a t in m i n d , l e t ’s g o b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h t w o
o n p a g e 9 4 , I th o u g h t t h a t t h e p e r i o d o f a p p o in t m e n t i t’s o n ly f o r a
p e r i o d o f, I t h i n k , i t ’s l e s s t h a n th r e e m o n th s t a k in g i n to a c c o u n t
D e c e m b e r, a m I r i g h t?
MR
10

MXOLISI

D U K WA N A :

Reading

it

C h a ir p e r s o n

is

th e

c o m m e n c e m e n t p e r i o d f o r th e a p p o i n t m e n t w il l b e e ffe c t iv e fr o m t h e 1 s t
o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 t o th e 3 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 5 o r e a r li e r a n d w it h t h a t i n
m i n d h o w d o e s o n e t h e n g e t p a y m e n t a s p r o v i d e d f o r i n p a r a g r a p h s ix
b e y o n d th e s t ip u la t e d p e r io d o f t h e c o n tr a c t ? I t e x p la i n s w h y I r e f e r t o
it a s a h e is t C h a ir p e r s o n , I g i v e y o u t h e ti m e fr a m e J a n u a r y 1 s t – 3 1 s t o f
M a r c h b u t s ti ll t h e r e a r e d a t e s b e y o n d t h e c o n tr a c t o r w h a t e v e r t h a t I
g a v e y o u – I g a v e u p u n t il th e 3 1 s t o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 b u t th e s a m e le t t e r
I’ m s a y i n g t o y o u I w i ll g iv e y o u R 5 1 m il li o n t h a t w il l p a y a b l e a s
p r o g r e s s c e r t if ic a te n u m b e r t h r e e o n o r b e f o r e t h e 1 s t o f M a y. Th a t w i ll
b e a f t e r th e w h o le p r o je c t w o u l d h a v e b e e n – s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n

20

fi n i s h e d a n d r e m e m b e r w h a t I s a id C h a ir p e r s o n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e b e f o r e y o u g e t t h e r e , m a y b e b e t w e e n

y o u a n d Mr M o k o e n a s o m e b o d y c a n g iv e m e c l a r i f ic a t i o n . I d o n ’ t s e e m
t o h a v e a n y p r o b l e m w i t h p a y m e n t s th a t c o m e a ft e r t h e d a t e o f
c o m p le t io n o f th e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e I ’ m a s s u m i n g t h a t n o r m a l ly y o u
w o u ld l e t th e m f i n i s h t h e p r o j e c t a n d t h e n y o u m u s t h a v e t i m e t o

Page 41 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
in s p e c t w h e t h e r t h e y h a v e d o n e t h e j o b p r o p e r ly a n d w i th o r w i t h o u t
t h a t , a s lo n g a s th e y a r e fi n is h e d t h e j o b i f t h e y a r e h a p p y t h a t y o u p a y
a m o n t h la t e r a n d s o o n th e n t h a t w o u ld b e f in e , is th e r e s o m e t h in g I ’ m
m is s i n g .

If y o u b u il t my h o u s e , i f I a s k e d y o u to b u i ld m y h o u s e a n d

y o u fi n is h it to d a y, w e m i g h t h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u le t m e h a v e
y o u r fi n a l i n v o i c e w i t h i n 7 d a y s o r to m o r r o w b u t I h a v e 3 0 d a y s t o p a y
t h e fi n a l in v o ic e , t h a t’s a f t e r y o u ’v e f i n is h e d t h e h o u s e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t h in k t h e n o r ma l t h i n g is th a t I w o r k a n d

t h e n s a y I w o r k i n J a n u a r y a n d t h e n I g i v e y o u a c e r ti f ic a te a n d t h e n
10

y o u g o o u t a n d y o u p a y m e f o r th e w o r k th a t I w o u l d h a v e d o n e , t h e
p r o g r e s s c e r t i fic a t e .

W h a t I’ m a l s o tr y in g t o p o i n t o u t C h a ir p e r s o n i s

the determination of the figure.
CHAIRPERSON:

D e t e r m in a ti o n o f ?

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e fi g u r e , o f t h e fi g u r e i ts e lf , s a y I m a k e

a n e x a m p le … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h a t m i g h t b e a d i ff e r e n t p o in t , I j u s t w a n t e d

t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e – I ’ m n o t m i s s i n g a n y p o in t t h a t e i t h e r y o u o r
Mr

Mokoena

was

m a k in g

about

p a y m e n ts

happening

after

the

c o m p le t io n o f t h e p r o j e c t b u t i f I ’ m n o t m is s in g a n y th in g i t ’s f in e .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

L e t ’s g o t o p a r a g r a p h s ix M r D u k w a n a ,

t h is d o e s n o t s e e m t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h is w i ll b e t h e a m o u n t p a i d f o r t h e
w o r k a lr e a d y d o n e , r e a d t h e e n t ir e p a r a g r a p h s i x w i t h t h e e m p h a s is o n ,
w i ll b e p a y a b le a s p r o g r e s s c e r t if ic a t e . W o u l d o n e u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e
p r o g r e s s c e r ti f ic a te w o u l d e n t a i l w o r k t h a t m u s t b e d o n e d u r in g t h a t
p e r i o d f o r o n e to b e e n ti tl e d to t h a t a m o u n t ?

Page 42 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t s ir.

O h s o t h a t’s th e – r e f e r s t o p r o g r e s s c e r ti f ic a te t o

s a y t h e r e s e e m s to b e a c o n tr a d ic t io n b e c a u s e t h e o n e p a r a g r a p h s a y s
t h e c o m p le t io n d a t e o f t h e p r o j e c t i s 3 1 M a r c h b u t a n o th e r p a r a g r a p h in
t h e le t t e r s e e m s t o c o n t e m p l a t e t h a t b e y o n d t h a t d a te t h e r e w i ll b e w o r k
c o n ti n u i n g a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e r e w il l b e p r o g r e s s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d e n t i tl e m e n t t o fu r th e r a m o u n ts .

Ye s n o w I u n d e r s t a n d .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:
10

N o w l e t’s d e a l w i th p a r a g r a p h s e v e n o n

t h e s a m e b a s i s a n d l o o k a t t h e p e r i o d a n d l o o k a ls o a t w h a t w a s t h a t
a m o u n t s u p p o s e d t o b e a d v a n c e d fo r, i f y o u c a n r e a d i t a n d a l s o
c o m m e n t o n i t i n li n e w i th p a r a g r a p h t w o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th is is th e 6 0 % o f th e 5 0 % o f t h e to t a l

p r o j e c t c o s t th a t w il l b e R 7 6 5 0 0 0 0 0 VAT e x c lu s i v e t h a t w i ll b e p a y a b l e
a s p r o g r e s s c e r ti fi c a t e n u m b e r f o u r s u b j e c t to t h e s u b m is s i o n o f th e
fi n a l r e p o r t o n o r b e f o r e th e 1 s t o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , n o w I s e e k c l a r i ty a ls o – m a y b e l e t

m e a l l o w y o u t o c o m m e n t in r e la t io n t o w h a t y o u ’v e s a i d b e f o r e , b e f o r e
I m o v e t o a n o t h e r p o i n t. W o u l d th a t b e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e n o r m a l
20

p r o c e s s e s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r b e y o n d th e
p e r i o d o f t h e s t ip u l a t e d – o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d a l s o fo r – I m e a n th e
a m o u n t a s i n d ic a t e d in p a r a g r a p h s e v e n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o r m a lly C h a i r p e r s o n o n c e y o u h a v e d o n e

y o u r p r o j e c t i n s o m e in s t a n c e s y o u ’ ll fi n d th a t y o u w il l b e p a id b u t
b e f o r e t h e y g iv e y o u t h e f in a l s e t t le m e n t t h e y w a n t t o g o b a c k a n d s e e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
if e v e r y th in g h a s b e e n d o n e a n d i f t h e y a r e n o t h a p p y w i t h th a t , th e y
w i ll t h e n fr o m th e f in a l s e t tl e m e n t t h a t th e y n e e d t o g i v e y o u , th e y w il l
t a k e w h a t th e y b e li e v e th e y n e e d t o t a k e a n d th e n g iv e y o u e v e r y th in g
t h a t i s d u e t o y o u b u t a s I ’ m s a y in g h e r e , t h is s e e m s t o d e t e r m i n e – i t ’s
p r e - d e t e r m i n e d t h a t fr o m t h is p e r i o d y o u w o u l d h a v e d o n e – y o u s h o u l d
h a v e d o n e 4 0 % i n t e r m s o f c o u n ti n g h o u s e s a n d th e n w e w i ll p a y y o u
t h is 4 0 % o f t h is w e ’ ll p a y y o u t h i s . I t’s a c t u a ll y v e r y, v e r y v a g u e , t h is –
t h e w h o le t h i n g t h a t is w r i t t e n … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e l l I w a n te d to a ls o a s k y o u , w h a t i s t h is th i n g o f

t a lk a b o u t 4 0 % o f 5 0 % , 6 0 % o f 5 0 % , w h a t i s t h i s i s th is a n o r m a l w a y o f
c a l c u l a ti n g w h a t w ill b e p a id t o a c o n tr a c t o r, w h y a r e t h e y n o t t a l k i n g
a b o u t w h a t e v e r p e r c e n ta g e a s w e a l l k n o w p e r c e n ta g e s . P e r c e n t o f t h e
w h o le a m o u n t , I m e a n th e y ’v e s a id t h e w h o le a m o u n t is R 2 5 5 m il li o n ,
w h y a r e t h e y n o t s i m p ly s a y in g w h e n y o u h a v e d o n e 2 0 % o f t h e h o u s e s
t h e n y o u w il l b e p a i d 2 0 % o f t h e R 2 5 5 m il li o n , 2 0 % o f th e w h o l e a m o u n t
o r s o m e t h in g li k e th is , w h a t is t h i s 4 0 % o f 5 0 % o f th e t o t a l p r o je c t c o s t ,
6 0 % o f 5 0 % o f t h e t o ta l p r o j e c t c o s t , 6 0 % o f t h e 5 0 % o f t h e t o ta l
project cost?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

20

T h e s i m p l e s t t h i n g ju s t t o s i m p l if y i t , y o u

h a v e – i t is p a y a b le in f o u r b a t c h e s .

In tis c a s e y o u h a v e 3 0 0 0 0 0

u n i ts , s o w h a t y o u d o h a l f o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 w o u l d b e 7 5 … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t p a r t , I ’ m a s k i n g w h e t h e r th is i s

normal, the normal way in which Government departments maybe
p a r t ic u l a r ly i n t h e Fr e e S t a te , h o w t h e y w o l d c o m m u n i c a t e o r c a lc u la t e
a m o u n ts p a id .

Yo u w e r e a n M E C f o r q u it e s o m e t i m e , y o u p r o b a b ly

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w o u ld k n o w o r – w a s t h is a n o r m a l w a y o f c a lc u la t in g w h a t w o u ld b e
p a i d t o a c o n t r a c t o r o r is i t s o m e t h i n g y o u w e r e s e e i n g f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e
a s w e ll ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h is is v e r y in t e r e s ti n g , t h i s is w h y,

C h a ir p e r s o n , I w a n t e d t o j u s t t o s h o w y o u w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d b y t h i s a n d
w h y I s a y – h e r e t h e 5 0 % i f y o u t a k e t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s a n d th e n y o u
h a v e 1 5 0 0 0 0 t h e 5 0 % o f w h a te v e r, w e a r e ta lk in g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I ’ m s a y in g t h a t p a r t I u n d e r s ta n d , I

u n d e r s t a n d h o w y o u w o u ld w o r k i t o u t t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d , w h a t I d o n ’ t
10

u n d e r s t a n d is – I m e a n o b v io u s ly 4 0 % o f 5 0 % is 4 0 % o f h a l f o f 3 0 0 0 0 0
u n i ts o r i f y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e a m o u n t it ’s 4 0 % o f h a l f o f R 2 5 5 m i ll io n b u t
it ’s a v e r y s tr a n g e w a y o f c a l c u l a t i n g a n y t h i n g , I m e a n – b u t m a y b e i t ’s
ju s t b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w.

S o w h a t I w a s i n te r e s t e d in is w h e th e r i n

y o u r e x p e r i e n c e , t h is i s n o t s o m e t h i n g u n u s u a l to c a l c u la t e t h i n g s ,
m a k e c a lc u l a ti o n s l ik e t h i s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t ’s w h y I w a s s a y i n g i t’s v a g u e , i t ’s o p e n

t o a b u s e b u t i t ’s n o t n o r m a l t h a t y o u d o t h is . T h e f a c t is C h a ir p e r s o n ,
w h a t y o u d o , y o u a p p o i n t a p e r s o n t o d o a p a r ti c u la r j o b , a s th e
p r o g r e s s r e p o r t c o m e s i n , i f I h a v e d o n e – th is m o n th I w o u l d h a v e
20

d o n e , s a y I w o u l d h a v e d o n e 2 0 h o u s e s , y o u w il l t h e n p a y m e 2 0 – f o r
t h e 2 0 h o u s e s a n d th e n y o u g o a n d d o i t . S o – b u t i f y o u p r e - d e t e r m i n e
it a n d y o u s a y y o u d o t h is , w e p a y y o u t h is m u c h .

So I’m saying, I

d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d i t q u i te c le a r ly h o w t h is w a s s tr u c tu r e d a n d w h y i t w a s
s tr u c t u r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h i le w e ’r e s til l tr y i n g t o c l e a r t h a t

c o n fu s i o n M r D u k w a n a , w h i le y o u ’r e o p e n i n g p a g e 9 4 c o u ld y o u a l s o
s i m u l t a n e o u s ly o p e n p a g e 11 2 , o p e n p a g e 9 4 a n d p a g e 11 2 . N o w i f y o u
lo o k a t p a g e 11 2 w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t t h a t t h is w a s t h e ta x c l e a r a n c e
c e r t if ic a te w h ic h w a s s u b m i t t e d in li n e w it h th is p r o j e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d i t w a s s u b m i t t e d b y t h e s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r i n q u e s t io n , w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Ye s y o u ’ r e c o r r e c t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w w h a t is t h e e x p ir y d a t e o f t h is ta x

c le a r a n c e c e r ti f ic a te , i f y o u l o o k a t t h e to p le f t- h a n d s i d e , y o u ’ ll f i n d h e
date?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e d a te t h e r e i s – I d o n ’ t k n o w

what…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

2 8 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 , is n ’t i t ?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J a i t w o u ld a p p e a r t h a t t h e a p p r o v e d

date…[intervenes].
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Expiry date 28 January 2015.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

A n d th e e x p ir y d a t e w o u ld a p p e a r t o b e

28 January 2015.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A m I r e a d i n g i t c o r r e c tl y ?

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Now comp are that – that period of the

v a l i d i ty o f t h e c e r t if ic a te o f t h e t a x c l e a r a n c e c e r t i fic a t e w it h p a r a g r a p h

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t w o o n p a g e 9 4 a n d c a n y o u w is h t o c o m m e n t o n c o m p a r i n g th e t w o
dates?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e c o m m e n c e m e n t i s fr o m t h e 1 s t o f

December to the 31st of March and then the expiry date of the
c le a r a n c e c e r t i fic a t e i s t h e 2 8 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 m e a n i n g t h a t b y t h e
ti m e y o u p a y e v e r y th i n g y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e a t a x c l e a r a n c e c e r ti f ic a te
t h a t i s i n o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l is n ’ t t h e r e q u i r e m e n t th a t a t th e t i m e y o u a s k t o

b e g i v e n w o r k b y a G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t o r y o u p u t in a b id
10

you

m u s t s h o w p r o o f t h a t y o u a r e t a x c o m p li a n t a s a t t h a t ti m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

I n w h ic h c a s e th is w o u l d h a v e s h o w n t h a t a t t h e t i m e

t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d t h e y w e r e t a x c o m p li a n t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e y w e r e y e s .

J a a n d i f t h e r e ’s a r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t l a te r o n w h il e th e

w o r k i s c o n ti n u i n g t h e y m u s t s h o w t h a t m i g h t b e a n o th e r i s s u e is n ’ t i t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I th i n k t h e r e s p o n s i b l e th in g to d o i s a l s o t o

– o n c e y o u a p p o i n t t h e s e p e o p l e y o u ’r e a w a r e o f th is a n d y o u t h e n
p o i n t i t o u t to th e m t h a t th is a n d t h e y s h o u l d s u b m i t a l s o t h e ir t a x
20

c le a r a n c e c e r t i fic a t e t h a t w o u l d b e in o r d e r s a y – i t’s a n n u a l t h a t t h e y
w o u ld s a y y o u s h o u ld d o th a t I d o n ’ t – n o I d o n ’ t th in k t h a t th e y
s u b m i tt e d th e s a m e c e r t i fic a t e f o r t h o s e . S o I’ m j u s t s a y i n g t h e s e a r e
s o m e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t n e e d t o b e f o l lo w e d u p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

L e t’s d e a l w i t h i t c l e a r l y, g o t o p a g e 9 4 ,

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
I m e a n p a r a g r a p h t w o t h e r e ’s n o a m b i g u i ty o n t h e s p e c i fic p e r i o d o f t h e
c o n tr a c t t h a t i s r e le v a n t . S o a s a t th e t i m e w h e n t h i s [i n d i s ti n c t ]
d is p a tc h e d i t i s q u i t e c l e a r b e tw e e n a l l in v o lv e d t h a t i t ’s fo r t h i s
d u r a t io n w h ic h y o u ’d b e r e q u i r e d to r e n d e r c e r t a i n s e r v ic e s , a m I r i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u a r e r ig h t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d a l s o t h e p a y m e n t th a t a r e g o i n g t o

b e p a i d th e r e ’s n o a m b ig u it y fr o m p a r a g r a p h f o u r t o p a r a g r a p h s e v e n a s
t o w h e n a r e t h e y g o in g to b e p a i d t h o s e a m o u n t s ? A ll th a t I’ m s a y i n g i f
y o u h a v e t h a t in r e g a r d w h e n t h e s e in s t r u c t io n s a r e is s u e d a n d th e t a x
10

c le a r a n c e c e r t if ic a te w h ic h i s s u b m it t e d , i t c le a r ly s h o w s t h a t i t w i ll
e x p ir e tw o m o n th s e v e n b e f o r e t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t i s c o r r e c t a n d I th i n k i t ’s a r e s p o n s i b il it y

o f w h o e v e r w a s w o r k i n g w i th t h is to p o i n t i t o u t a l s o t h a t th is w i ll b e t h e
c o n d i ti o n t o p a y o t h e r a m o u n ts o f m o n e y o r s h o w t h e c e r t i fic a t e t h a t
w i ll b e c o m p li a n t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
i m p o r t a n t.

B u t t h e C h a ir a ls o r a is e s s o m e t h i n g

It s a y s t h a t n o r m a l ly a n d u s u a l ly w h e n a b id d e r s u b m i ts a

t e n d e r d o c u m e n t o n e w o u ld s u b m i t i t w i t h th e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ts
in c l u d i n g a v a l id t a x c e r ti f ic a t e , a m I c o r r e c t ?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W a s t h e r e a n y te n d e r i n r e g a r d t o t h is

s p e c i f ic p r o j e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e r e w a s n o te n d e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now if we can move on and may I refer
y o u t o p a g e 9 6 a n d i f y o u m a y i d e n t i fy t h a t d o c u m e n t fo r u s ?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t e n t e r e d i n to

b e t w e e n D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t t le m e n t h e r e in r e p r e s e n t e d b y
N ti m e tz i

Mokesi

in

h is

c a p a c i ty

as

Head

of

Department

the

[ D e p a r t m e n t ] a n d B l a c k h e a d C o n s u lt i n g [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I am sorry Mr Mokoena I did not hear the
page.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 9 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 9 6 o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:
10

I a p o l o g is e y e s .

Page 96 Mr Dukwana

a lr e a d y h a s r e a d t h e n a m e o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o n r e c o r d a n d in d i c te d
t h a t t h is w a s t h e S e r v i c e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n th e t w o e n t i ti e s o r
t h e t w o o r g a n s t h a t a r e a c t u a l ly in d i c a t e d in t h a t l e t te r, a m I r i g h t? I n
that contract?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t o n e s e c o n d . Ye s w e m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And if you may please turn to page 97
a n d a t t h e b o t t o m y o u w il l s e e t h e r e is t h i s c la u s e n u m b e r 2 . I f y o u c a n
r e a d w h a t th a t c la u s e c o n v e y s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e w o r k in g r e l a ti o n s h i p o n p a g e 9 7 ?

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ T h e w o r k in g r e l a ti o n s h i p . T h e D e p a r t m e n t a p p o in ts
t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r t o a s s e s s a u d i t h o u s e s r o o v e d
u s i n g a s b e s t o s m a t e r ia l , h a n d li n g a n d d is p o s a l o f
a s b e s to s s h e e ts to a n a p p r o v e d d e s ig n a te d d i s p o s a l

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s ig h t . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d w h i le y o u a r e o n p a g e 9 8 w h a t
is t h e d u r a ti o n o f th e c o n tr a c t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ T h e a g r e e m e n t c o m m e n c e s o n t h e la s t p a r ty s i g n in g
a n d te r m in a t e s o n th e 3 1 s t A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s s e e i f w e c a n b e a b le to
s e e a s t o w h e n d i d th e p a r ti e s s i g n s o t h a t w e c a n b e a b l e t o k n o w
w h e n i t c o m m e n c e s o r – w h e n i t w il l t e r m i n a te . If y o u g o t o p a g e 1 0 3 is
10

t h e r e a n y s i g n a t u r e a p p e n d e d o n t h a t – a p p e n d e d in t h a t p a g e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s t h e r e is a s i g n a t u r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Is t h e r e a n y d a t e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. L e t u s t u r n t o p a g e 1 0 4 . Is th e r e
a n y d a te t h a t o n e c a n s e e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w l e t m e r e f e r y o u b a c k t o p a g e
98.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e s ig n a tu r e s w h i c h – o n p a g e 1 0 3 th e s i g n a t u r e

t h a t is ju s t a b o v e t h e w o r d s i g n a t u r e o f d e p a r t m e n t d o w e k n o w w h o s e
s ig n a tu r e t h a t is ? D o y o u k n o w w h o s e s i g n a t u r e is ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : It l o o k s t h e s a m e a s th e o n e t h a t w a s – t h a t
w a s r e f le c te d o n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t l e tt e r. T h a t le t t e r t h a t w e j u s t r e a d .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t h i n k is i t o n p a g e 9 5 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 94 – 95?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 9 5 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 9 5 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 95.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I f y o u c h e c k 9 5 t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a n d
10

1 0 3 w o u ld b e t h e s a m e s i g n a t u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y d o n o t l o o k th e s a m e t h e y h e y ? O r th e y …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: They seem.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r it is b e c a u s e o n e – o n e is
– is s m a l le r t h a n t h e o t h e r b u t i f y o u l o o k a t th e tw o t h e y s e e m t o b e
q u i te d i ff e r e n t .

But I do know that sometimes when I sign many

d o c u m e n ts n o t a ll m y s i g n a t u r e s l o o k e x a c tl y t h e s a m e . S o – a n y w a y –
o k a y n o w I – I s e e – s o th a t is t h i s s i g n a t u r e a n d t h e r e i s n o s ig n a t u r e
for a witness, is that right?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

And there are no dates that are

r e fl e c t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e a r e n o d a te s t h a t a r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h a t i t is in li n e M r D u k w a n a a l s o

w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t o n p a g e 9 8 – t h a t th e
a g r e e m e n t c o m m e n c e s o n t h e l a s t p a r ty s i g n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t e r m i n a t e s o n th e 3 1 s t A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w b e a r i n g t h a t in m i n d t h a t w e a r e n o t
a b l e t o fi n d t h a t c la r i ty c o u ld y o u p l e a s e o p e n – w h il e y o u a r e s til l
opening page 98 also go back to page 94. Now can you comment about
t h e t w o d u r a ti o n s th a t a r e r e f le c te d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s a m e s u b je c t
matter?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e f ir s t o n e o n p a g e 9 4 is fr o m 1 s t

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 t o 3 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 5 o r e a r li e r a n d t h e n th e d u r a ti o n o n
10

t h is o n e th e S e r v i c e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t i s – t e r m in a t e s o n th e 3 1 s t A u g u s t
2017.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
was happening?
c o n tr a c t.

Can you explain?

Do you know what

I m e a n w e h a v e t w o d i ff e r e n t d u r a ti o n s o f t h e

T h e o n e r e f l e c te d i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t a n d t h e o n e i n t h e

S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I n o u r d is c u s s io n t h e – w i t h t h e l a t e M r

M p a m b a n i w a s t h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g – t h e y w e r e g o in g t o d o th is i n
p h a s e s . I t w il l b e th e f ir s t p h a s e a n d th e n t h e s e c o n d p h a s e . S o I – I
w o u ld a s s u m e th a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e f a c t th a t i t g o e s t o 2 0 1 7 it
20

w o u ld h a v e b e e n t o a c c o m m o d a t e t h e 2 0 1 7 th in g w h i c h w o u l d b e t h e
second phase.

B e c a u s e h e w a s s a y i n g t h e fir s t p h a s e w a s g o in g t o

d e a l w i t h t h e a u d i ti n g o f t h e h o u s e s a n d t h e s e c o n d p h a s e w i ll b e t h e
removal of the asbestos houses – of the roofing.

But as you would

u n d e r s t a n d a s y o u w o u l d s e e h e r e t h i s is n o t w h a t a c t u a ll y t r a n s p i r e d i n
t h e lo n g r u n .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

B u t a ls o i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 9 4

d o y o u h a v e a n y o t h e r l e tt e r o f in s tr u c ti o n o r a p p o i n t m e n t t h a t s u g g e s t
t h a t th is p e r i o d w e n t b e y o n d th is p e r i o d s t i p u l a t e d t h e r e i n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e – t h e in s tr u c ti o n l e t t e r h e r e t h a t w a s

g iv e n t o t h e C h ie f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e o n e b e l ie v e s C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d b e
a ft e r s i g n i n g t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t y o u w i ll t h e n is s u e a l e tt e r
t h a t w o u l d – a ls o g i v e th e i n s tr u c ti o n s . T h e r e i s – o r u s e th e S e r v ic e
L e v e l A g r e e m e n t.

S o I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h i s in te r ms o f y o u h a v in g

t h e in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m t h e d u ty a n d y o u g iv e t h is – w h a t i t m e a n s is
10

t h e y w i ll t h e n h a v e to c o m e b a c k a ls o a n d h a v e t h e p e r i o d th a t w ill b e
d e s i g n a t e d i n t e r m s o f w h a t w o r k w i ll th e n b e d e a lt w i t h . I f y o u c h e c k
t h a t o n e th e r e i t g o e s o u t w it h t h e A u d i t a n d A s s e s s a n d G P S a n d i t
ends there.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i f y o u c h e c k a t t h e – a t t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l
A g r e e m e n t t h e – w h e n t h e y – w h e n t h e y t e l l e x a c t ly w h a t t h e y w a n t t o
d o i f w e c a n r e a d w h a t t h e r e s p o n s i b ili t y o f th e p a r t i e s w e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h a t i s w h a t I w a n t e d t o a s k y o u a b o u t b e c a u s e
w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t p h a s e 1 a n d p h a s e 2 I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e t h e r –

20

how that would work out because I understood you to say the 300 000
h o u s e s w o u l d b e a ll t h e h o u s e s a n d I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e ir ta s k i n te r ms o f
t h e l e t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t w a s n o t j u s t t h e a u d it i n g a n d a s s e s s m e n t b u t
it w o u l d a ls o b e – i n c lu d e th e r e m o v a l .

So – but when I look at the

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s i t lo o k s l ik e th e r e m i g h t b e a p r o b l e m . D o y o u w a n t t o
d e a l w it h t h a t ?

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t h i n k if C h a ir p e r s o n w e – w e c a n a ls o g o t o
t h e p a g e 9 8 a n d th e – w h a t th e – e a c h r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s w o u ld g iv e s o m e
c la r i ty t o w h a t I w o u ld b e s a y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ju s t t e l l u s a b o u t th e m . Yo u c a n r e a d th e m .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e – i f y o u r e a d w h a t t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s
m u s t d o a n d t h e n th e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t . I w o u l d lik e t o
r e a d t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o u t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

“The Department”
T h a t 4 .3 – 4 . 3 .1
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t s h a l l p a y f o r t h e s e r v i c e s o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r in
a c c o r d a n c e w it h t h e c o s t b r e a k d o w n a s a g r e e d a n d a p p r o v e d i n
in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m w o r k . ”
S o th is g o e s t o th a t i n s tr u c ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n .

I n s tr u c ti o n t o p e r f o r m

w o r k a n d t h e b r e a k d o w n is th is o n e . I t h a s t h e s e d a t e s . S o th e n t h e
c o n fu s i o n in t h i s c a s e w o u l d b e y o u h a v e th e d u r a ti o n o f t h is S e r v i c e
20

L e v e l A g r e e m e n t a n d y o u h a v e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s o f th e p a r t ie s i n
a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h is S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t . A n d t h is S e r v i c e L e v e l
A g r e e m e n t r e f e r s t o th e in s t r u c ti o n l e t t e r t h a t h a s s p e c i f ic d a t e s . T h e
1 s t D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 t o 3 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . T h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t
h o w e v e r te r mi n a te s o n t h e 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t h e r e i n
4 .3 . 1 s a y s :

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t s h a l l p a y f o r t h e s e r v i c e s o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r in
accordance

w i th

the

cost

breakdown

as

agreed

and

approved

in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r fo r m w o r k a n d a p p o i n t s i g n i n g o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t
le t t e r. ”
A n d t h is w a s t h e l e tt e r t h a t w e t a l k i n g a b o u t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g to t h e le t t e r a t p a g e 9 4 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 94.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y ta lk a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t l e tt e r ?

B e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t s e e m t o m e – i t d o e s n o t s e e m to m e t h a t t h a t
10

n e c e s s a r i ly r e fe r s to t h a t le t t e r b u t i t m a y b e . T h e r e is n o t h i n g i n 4 . 3 . 1
t h a t s a y s w h ic h a p p o in t m e n t l e tt e r th e y a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . C o u l d i t n o t
b e a n a p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r – a n e w a p p o i n t m e n t l e t te r t h a t m a y h a v e
b e e n e n v i s a g e d w o u l d b e g i v e n t o t h e m o r t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n g iv e n to
them other than the one of – of – at page 94? Because are we not in
2 0 1 7 a lr e a d y n o w ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W e a r e n o t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r t h e y m a y b e r e f e r r in g t o i t .

I w o u l d s i m p ly h a v e

e x p e c te d t h a t t h e y w o u l d i d e n ti f y it b y s a y in g a p p o i n t m e n t l e t t e r d a te d
t h is a n d t h a t a n d th a t .
20

I f – i t w o u ld h a v e m a d e th i n g s m u c h m o r e

e a s i e r. B u t o f c o u r s e if t h e r e w a s n o o t h e r a p p o in t m e n t le t t e r t h is w a s
t h e o n ly a p p o i n t m e n t l e t t e r m a y b e o n e s h o u l d r e a d i t t o r e f e r to it . I t is
ju s t s tr a n g e o r o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h e m t o a n n e x i t a s a n
a n n e x u r e t o th e a g r e e m e n t t o s a y a p p o i n t m e n t l e t te r a n n e x e d a s
w h a t e v e r o r a d d e n d u m n u m b e r – a d d e n d u m n u m b e r w h a te v e r. T h a t i s
s o m e t h i n g y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e to h e l p m e w i th .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h to r e f e r t o
t h a t l e t te r a t p a g e 9 4 th a t is h o w y o u r e a d it ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e – I r e a d i t t h is w a y C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e
t h e r e i s – w e d o n o t h a v e a n y l e tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y o t h e r le t t e r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O r i n s tr u c t io n l e t te r o t h e r t h a n t h is o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o t h a t is f i n e I w a s ju s t s a y i n g – I w a s j u s t
s a y in g m a y b e w e s h o u l d n o t i m m e d i a t e ly a s s u m e th a t i t r e f e r s to th a t
10

le t t e r b u t m a y b e i t d o e s . B u t le t u s w o r k o n th e b a s is th a t i t r e f e r s t o
t h a t l e t te r i f th e r e is n o o t h e r l e tt e r a n d t h e n y o u c a n p r o c e e d w i t h t h e
c o m m e n t s y o u w a n t to m a k e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I f e e l c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w a f t e r h a v i n g d e a lt w i th t h o s e

n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts m a y I r e f e r y o u b a c k to y o u r s t a te m e n t w i t h
p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e C h a ir t o p a g e 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e le t m e s a y t h is b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d M r

M o k o e n a a n d b o t h Mr D u k w a n a a n d y o u r s e l f c a n s a y s o m e t h i n g i f y o u
20

h a v e s o m e t h i n g to s a y.

I f – i f i t is c o r r e c t t o r e a d t h is p a r a g r a p h a s

r e fe r r i n g t o th e a p p o i n t m e n t l e t t e r a t p a g e 9 4 .

Is th e p o s i ti o n n o t

t h e r e f o r e th a t th e w h o l e th in g b e c o m e s n o n s e n s ic a l b e c a u s e th e le t t e r
a t p a g e 9 4 t a lk s a b o u t th e d u r a t io n th a t s t a r ts o n t h e 1 s t D e c e m b e r
2 0 1 4 g o e s u p t o t h e – a n d g o e s u p t o t h e 3 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d t h is
m e m o r a n d u m is b e i n g s ig n e d in 2 0 1 7 u n l e s s t h e r e i s a c l a u s e i n t h i s

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m e m o r a n d a – i n t h i s a g r e e m e n t t h a t s a y s th o s e d a te s i n t h a t le t t e r
m u s t b e r e a d to m e a n a d i ff e r e n t – d i ff e r e n t d a t e s . Is t h a t s o m e t h i n g
t h a t y o u – y o u a w a r e i s b e in g a d d r e s s e d o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u d o
not know?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I h o p e th e h e a d w i ll p r o v i d e s o m e c l a r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s a lr i g h t .
MR

MXOLISI

D U K WA N A :

But

as

I

am

saying

C h a ir p e r s o n

[i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o m e o f t h e q u e s t i o n s I m a y a s k a r e q u e s ti o n s t h a t

y o u m ig h t n o t k n o w a b o u t b u t I a m o n ly a s k i n g i n c a s e y o u k n o w. A n d
if y o u d o n o t k n o w y o u j u s t s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w a n d a t s o m e s t a g e w e
m i g h t g e t c l a r i f ic a t i o n .
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m th e d o c u m e n t s a t o u r d is p o s a l t h a t
y o u h a v e f u r n is h e d t h e c o m m i s s i o n w i t h l e t u s a t te m p t a f t e r w e h a v e
d e a lt w i th a ll t h is c o n f u s i o n t o s k e tc h a c h r o n o lo g y f r o m t h e s e
d o c u m e n ts . L e t u s d o s o b y r e f e r e n c e to p a g e 1 0 7 . B e c a u s e t h e d a te s
w i ll b e q u it e r e v e a l in g . T h a t is d a te d – y o u h a v e a l r e a d y t o l d th e C h a ir
t h a t i t is d a t e d t h e 2 8 t h M a y 2 0 1 4 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s S ir.

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d th is is a r e q u e s t t h a t i s b e i n g m a d e
t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t b y th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r, a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o a t l e a s t fr o m w h a t w e c a n g a th e r t h is
is w h e r e w e c a n tr a c e th e – w h e n t h e r e q u e s t w a s m a d e , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s y o u a r e .

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A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s g o t o p a g e 1 0 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t 1 0 1 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 1 0 5 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 0 5 o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t w o u l d b e t h e l e tt e r d a t e d t h e 1 s t

October 2014.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

It w i ll – it s a y s t h a t a p p o i n t m e n t a s

profession resource team, can you see that?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s I c a n s e e t h a t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Can you read paragraph number 3?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ Yo u w i ll b e e x p e c t e d t o s ig n a s S e r v ic e L e v e l
A g r e e m e n t w it h th e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o r h i s
d u ly d e s i g n a t e d o ff ic i a l.

T h e c o n tr a c t w i ll s ti p u l a t e

a m o n g o t h e r s t h e d u r a t i o n o f th e c o n tr a c t , p a y m e n t
a r r a n g e m e n t a n d o t h e r g e n e r a l c o n d i t io n s . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

“ Yo u w il l b e is s u e d w i t h a n in s tr u c ti o n t o p e r f o r m
w o r k b a s e d o n a n a p p r o v e d p r o je c t m il e s t o n e f o r
each phase to be completed.”
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

S o e v e n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n l e tt e r t h a t y o u

h a v e r e f e r r e d t o s u r e ly m u s t b e b o r n e o u t o f t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h i s l e t te r,
a m I r i g h t?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e r i g h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o w e a r e s t il l o n tr a c k w i t h t h e

c h r o n o lo g y. L e t u s g o t o p a g e 9 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Just one second.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you go to page 96.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 96.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o k o e n a . J a n o I w a s j u s t n o t in g t h e s i g n a t u r e a t
p a g e 1 0 5 o n th a t l e t te r.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t a p p e a r s t o b e c o n s i s t e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I s e e m t o p ic k u p t h a t t h e y a r e v e r y …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Va r i a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h e y a r e a l l k i n d s o f v a r i a ti o n s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But as I say …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t m ig h t b e d e p e n d .
CHAIRPERSON: When I sign…
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e t h e r y o u s ig n o n a F r i d a y o r M o n d a y,
S a t u r d a y o r w h a t e v e r d a y C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

I s o m e ti m e s th i n k t h a t it m i g h t b e v e r y d i ffi c u l t fo r

a n y b o d y to – w h o is l o o k i n g a t m y d i ff e r e n t s i g n a t u r e s t o s a y i t is t h e
same person who signed.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now from page 105 let us go to page 96

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a n d t h a t is n o w t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t w h i c h is r e f e r r e d t o th a t
le t t e r t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t a ll u d e d to – t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n , a m I r i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e r i g h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

A n d w e k n o w th a t w e d o n o t h a v e a n y

d a t e s i n th is S L A b u t a t le a s t i t w a s s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e l e t te r s t h a t y o u
h a v e d e a l t w i th ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Right.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr M o k o e n a .
10

I t h in k I – I lo s t y o u .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: It was page 96.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s t il l a t 1 0 5 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t w a s p a g e 9 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 96 yes.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 9 6 . I t is t h e S e r v ic e L e v e l A g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a h a s a lr e a d y te s ti fi e d o n i t

a n d w e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o p a g e 1 0 3 a n d 1 0 4 d u r in g h is e a r l ie r t e s t i m o n y
a n d c l e a r ly e s t a b l is h e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o d a t e s . B u t a t l e a s t o n e c a n
fi n d c o m f o r t i n k n o w i n g t h a t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n – i t s h o u l d h a v e
20

been concluded subsequent to those letters. Am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Before any payment could be made you –

you should have the Service Lever Agreem ent.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w w h a t w o u l d f o ll o w fr o m w h a t
w e a r e h a v i n g n o w g o t o p a g e 9 4 . Th e n t h is i s th e d o c u m e n t th a t t e l ls
y o u a b o u t [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A t s o m e s t a g e I h a d a s k e d a n d I t h in k Mr D u k w a n a

h a d s a i d h e w a s g o i n g to r e a d t h e r e s p o n s ib il it y o f t h e S e r v ic e P r o v i d e r
a n d th e A g r e e m e n t b u t h e s o u g h t to s t a r t w i t h t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t a n d I th i n k d i d n o t g o b a c k to – i t t o d e a l w i th th e
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f th e S e r v ic e Pr o v id e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M a y b e y o u c a n d e c i d e w h e th e r h e a n s w e r s t h e

q u e s t io n t h a t y o u a r e p u t ti n g t o h i m n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o i t is f in e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r h e c le a r s t h a t fi r s t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I th i n k w h il e w e a r e s ti ll [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h i le y o u a r e s ti ll w a n t t h e q u e s t i o n t o
b e d e a l t w i th m a y b e i t i s a p p r o p r i a t e to d o s o . L e t u s g o t o p a g e 9 8 Mr
Dukwana.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

20

A n d fo r c o m p l e t e n e s s y o u to u c h e d o n

c la u s e 4 . 3 b u t – m a y – c a n y o u p l e a s e r e a d 4 .1 a n d 4 . 2 s o th a t w e c a n
h a v e t h e e n tir e r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s b e i n g r e c o r d e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ T h e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s o f p a r ti e s . T h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r
shall
4 .1 . 1 E x e c u t e t h e p r o j e c t in l in e w i th t h is a g r e e m e n t .

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T h e a p p r o v e d in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m w o r k a n d t h e
a p p lic a b l e l e g is l a t i o n s a n d r e g u l a ti o n s .
2 . O n b e c o m i n g a w a r e o f a n y m a t t e r w h ic h a r e
m a t e r i a lly c h a n g e d o r h a s c h a n g e d t h e s c o p e o r c o s t
o r ti m i n g o f t h e s e r v ic e – o f t h e s e r v i c e s o f th e w o r k s
the

service

p r o v id e r

shall

g iv e

n o t ic e

to

the

D e p a r t m e n t.
3 . N o t u n d e r ta k e a n y w o r k w i t h o u t t h e n e c e s s a r y
in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m w o r k s i g n e d b y t h e H e a d o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o r t h e d e le g a t e d o ffi c i a l .

10

P r o v id e t h e

D e p a r t m e n t w i t h a c o s t b r e a k d o w n o f t h e s e r v ic e s
c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e p r o j e c t . ”
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f y o u lo o k a t t h a t c la u s e th a t i s 4 . 1 w h ic h is

s u p p o s e d to s e t o u t t h e o b li g a t i o n s o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a n d y o u a r e
lo o k in g a t e s ta b l is h i n g e x a c t ly w h a t t h e y w e r e o b li g e d to d o it s e e ms
t h a t y o u c a n o n ly fi n d th a t w i t h i n c l a u s e 4 .1 . 1 w h ic h i s th e y w e r e t o
e x e c u te th e p r o je c t i n l in e w it h th is a g r e e m e n t t h e a p p r o v e d in s t r u c ti o n
t o p e r f o r m w o r k a n d th e a p p li c a b le l e g is la t io n s a n d r e g u l a ti o n s . N o w i t
c a n o n ly b e – i t w o u ld m e a n t h a t y o u w o u ld n e e d to f in d t h e a p p r o v e d
20

in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m w o r k .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t w o u l d t e l l y o u w h a t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d
to do.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h i s b e c o m e s to t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t m i g h t b e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
c o r r e c t t o r e a d t h a t in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m w o r k to b e a r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t
le t t e r a t p a g e 9 4 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u l d m e a n t h a t th e w o r k t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o
u n d e r th is a g r e e m e n t i s t h e s a m e w o r k t h a t w a s g i v e n to t h e m in t e r m s
o f t h a t l e t te r. I n o th e r w o r d s w h a t y o u m a y h a v e th o u g h t o f w h e n y o u
t a lk e d a b o u t p h a s e 1 a n d p h a s e 2 m i g h t n o t b e a p p l ic a b l e b e c a u s e o n e
w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t i f t h e y h a d d o n e t h e i d e n t i fic a ti o n f o r e x a m p l e
t h e n t h e s e c o n d – t h e p h a s e 2 s h o u l d n o t ta lk a b o u t t h e m d o i n g a n y
10

id e n t i fic a t io n . I t s h o u l d t a l k a b o u t t h e m d o in g th e r e s t o f t h e jo b .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a d i n g o f 4 . 1 .1 t o g e t h e r

w i t h 4 . 1 .3 t h a t t h e s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s s h o u l d n o t u n d e r ta k e a n y w o r k
w i t h o u t th e n e c e s s a r y in s t r u c t i o n t o p e r f o r m w o r k s i g n e d b y t h e H e a d o f
t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d th is w o u ld m e a n t h is o n e . I w o u l d a s s u m e it m e a n s
t h e o n e th a t w e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e i n s tr u c t io n to p e r f o r m w h i c h w a s
s ig n e d b y th e H O D a n d w i t h t h i s y o u w o u l d b e l ie v e th a t t h e s e r v ic e
a g r e e m e n t t h a t – t h a t i s h e r e w e t a lk in g a b o u t w h a t is w r i t te n i n t h e
agreement.

I w a s m e r e ly v o ic i n g o u t th e d is c u s s i o n t h a t I h a d t h a t i t

w a s n o t – t h e p r o j e c t w a s n o t e n t ir e ly t o – to a u d i t a n d – e tc e t e r a th e –
20

b u t i t w a s a l s o t o e r a d ic a t e , r e m o v e th e m a n d g o a n d s to r e th e m
somewhere or bury them somewhere. So that is why he said it was in
phases to me.

S o w h e n I w a s s a y in g t h a t I w a s ju s t a s s u m i n g t h a t i t

m i g h t a c t u a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e f a c t th a t i t g o e s t o 2 0 1 7 .

Page 63 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t t h e c l a r i ty i s t h a t b e fo r e y o u d o a ll t h e s e
o th e r t h i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h i s is s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e d e a l t
with.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d I a m s a y i n g t h i s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e a s
w e w i ll c o n t i n u e t h e – th e o t h e r t h i n g t h a t I w a n t e d t o p o i n t o u t a t s o m e
10

s t a g e i n 2 0 1 0 th e r e w a s a n i n s tr u c t io n f r o m t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r t o
m a k e s u r e th a t – I w a s s t il l i n g o v e r n m e n t t h e n – in t h e e x e c u ti v e
c o u n c i l t h a t n o c o n tr a c t s h o u ld b e e n t e r e d i n t o b e f o r e i t i s t a k e n to t h e
s e r v ic e l e v e l – t o t h e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s i n th e o ff ic e o f t h e Pr e m i e r.
A n d t h e r e w a s a d ir e c t iv e w r it t e n t o a ll t h e H O D ’s , t h e C F O ’s a n d a s
w e ll a s th e S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e r s to t h a t e ff e c t t h a t e v e r y c o n tr a c t
b e f o r e y o u e n t e r in t o it m u s t h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s . S o o n e
w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t th e s a m e s h o u l d h a v e a p p li e d i n t h is c a s e b u t i f
ig n o r e d i t e x p l a i n s s o m e o f th e d i ffi c u l ti e s i n u n d e r s t a n d in g . B e c a u s e
t h e la w a d v is o r s w o u l d h a v e p o in t e d o u t t h e p r o b l e m in t h e w h o l e t h in g .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s i s – I a m j u s t m e n t i o n i n g t h i s to y o u o b v io u s ly M r
D u k w a n a w i ll h e a r. C l a u s e 4 . 1 . 2 w h ic h Mr D u k w a n a r e f e r r e d t o w h i c h –
n o , n o 4 .1 . 3 w h i c h s a y s t h e s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s h a ll n o t u n d e r t a k e a n y
w o r k w i t h o u t t h e n e c e s s a r y i n s tr u c ti o n to p e r fo r m w o r k .

Page 64 of 278

Maybe

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
c r e a ti n g m o r e p r o b l e m s i f o n e s a y s t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y a n i n s tr u c ti o n to
perform work.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e ll M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o I a m p a i n t i n g t h i s c h r o n o lo g y t o

d e m o n s t r a t e th e s e r i o u s a n o m a l i e s i n t e r ms o f t h e d a t e s .

A n d Mr

D u k w a n a i f [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

C l e a r l y t h e r e is n o l e t t e r t h a t is t a l k i n g

about Phase 1, Phase 2 Phase 3.

Yo u d o n o t h a v e a n y o t h e r

in s t r u c t i o n s o t h e r t h a n t h e o n e t h a t is o n p a g e 9 4 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Tr u e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I n t e r m s o f s e q u e n c e o f t h e d a te s a n d

w h a t is b e in g r e a d t h e r e i s n o t h in g e ls e t h a t o n e c a n s a y t h a t t h e r e
c o u l d h a v e b e e n a n y o t h e r i n s tr u c ti o n s b e y o n d w h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n th is
d o c u m e n ts . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ex a c t ly.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w t h e p e r io d t h a t i s c le a r ly

id e n t i fi e d is t h e o n e i n p a r a g r a p h 9 4 a n d t h a t w i ll b e i n c o n fo r m i t y w i th
20

w h a t th e C h a ir h a s n o w r e a d t h a t y o u c a n n o t p e r f o r m a n y w o r k w i th o u t
a n y o t h e r - w i th o u t p r o p e r i n s tr u c ti o n s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t y e t w h e n y o u g o t o t h e s a m e S e r v ic e

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L e v e l A g r e e m e n t y o u f i n d a d i ff e r e n t d u r a ti o n a n d o n a c o n tr a c t t h a t
does not have any signatures - it does not have any dates.

Am I

correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w I w a n t n o w to m o v e a n d - a n d
ju s t t o c l a r i f y y o u s a i d t h a t t h i s is t h e p r o j e c t o f 2 5 5 m il li o n o n a s i m p l e
le t t e r t h a t y o u h a v e s e e n . T h e r e w a s n o o p e n te n d e r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o . T h e r e w a s n o o p e n te n d e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

Ye s .

N o w I w a n t t o r e fe r y o u b a c k to

y o u r w i tn e s s s t a t e m e n t w i th p a r tic u la r r e f e r e n c e t o p a g e 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

So - I am sorry Mr Mokoena.

W i th o u t t h e - t h i s

a g r e e m e n t d o e s n o t i ts e l f s p e c i fy h o w m a n y h o u s i n g u n i ts i t w a s t a l k i n g
a b o u t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e w o u l d h a v e t o g o t o s o m e o t h e r d o c u m e n t if

a p p lic a b l e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Indeed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To fi n d t h a t o u t i f th e r e i s a n y th i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E x a c tl y C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a d o y o u w a n t t o v e n t il a te

w h a t th e C h a ir is s a y i n g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g
t h e r e is a p r o b l e m in - i n r e la t io n t o t h is a n d c l e a r l y I d o n o t th i n k t h e t h e a t to r n e y s i n t h e - i n - l e g a l a d v is o r s i n th e d e p a r t m e n t o r th e - t h e

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S t a te L a w A d v is o r s e s p e c ia ll y w i t h r e g a r d to t h e in s t r u c t i o n t h a t w a s
g iv e n a t t h e ti m e b y t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now page 13 of your statement. If you
c a n r e a d th e c o n t e n ts o f p a r a g r a p h 4 2 a n d y o u m a y c o m m e n t w h e n y o u
deem necessary to do so.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : “ T h e le t t e r o f … ”
42:
“ T h e l e t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t fo ll o w e d a p p o i n t m e n t
f o ll o w e d a f iv e p a g e d p r o p o s a l fr o m S o d i th a t w a s
10

dated 28 May 2014 for the request for appointment
on

risk

a u d it

hazardous

and

m a t e r ia l ,

assessment,
removal

h a n d li n g
or

of

disposal

a
of

a s b e s to s c o n t a m in a t e d r u b b l e i n th e Fr e e S t a t e
P r o v i n c e . Fo r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e I a n n e x h e r e t o a l l
t h e s e o th e r c o p i e s . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d y o u s a y t h a t t h is is w h a t

c u l m i n a te d i n th e G o v e r n m e n t p a y in g 2 5 5 m il li o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ja.

W h e n - w h e n y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e

s y s te m s a n d a s G o v e r n m e n t i f I - y o u c a n i m a g i n e a fiv e p a g e p r o p o s a l
20

n e t t in g y o u 2 5 5 m i ll i o n . I t is v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g t h a t th e y j u s t m a d e t h a t
p r o p o s a l a n d t h e n t h e 2 5 5 m il li o n w a s p a i d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d y o u m a k e c e r t a i n o b s e r v a t i o n s

in p a r a g r a p h 4 3 . I f y o u c a n t a k e u s th r o u g h t h a t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“ T h i s p r o je c t w a s a b r a z e n a c t o f

c o r r u p ti o n e x e c u t e d b y S t a te O ff ic ia ls i n c o n c e p t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w i t h t h e b u s in e s s p e r s o n s a t t h e b e h e s t o f t h e
P r e m i e r o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e Mr M a g a s h u l e a t t h a t
ti m e . ”
W e w i ll a l s o d e m o n s tr a t e w h y C h a ir p e r s o n w e a r e s a y in g th a t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 4 t h a t i s

w h e r e y o u a r e n o w d e t a i li n g s p e c i fic tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d t h e m o n ie s w h ic h
m i g h t h a v e p a i d t o d i ffe r e n t b e n e f ic ia r i e s a n d i f I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r
s t a te m e n t v e r y c a r e - v e r y w e l l is t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e m o n i e s w h ic h
e m a n a t e s fr o m t h is a s b e s to s p r o je c t. A m I c o r r e c t ?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d w e s h o u l d b e a l iv e to c e r t a i n

n a m e s t h a t y o u h a v e n o t m e n ti o n e d .

Mr X because we are now - we

a r e n o w a b o u t to d e a l w i t h t h o s e is s u e s . N o w b e fo r e w e d e a l w i th t h e
s p e c i f ic s y o u m e n t io n e d s p e c if ic n a m e s i n t h e p a r a g r a p h s . Yo u m a k e
r e fe r e n c e to p e o p le lik e M s M o r a k e . W h e r e w a s s h e e m p l o y e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e mi e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And do you know for how long roughly

w a s s h e e m p lo y e d i n th a t o ff ic e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W h e n I w a s …
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Was it a long time?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W h e n I w a s in - in G o v e r n m e n t s h e w a s s ti ll
there …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d I d o n o t - a n d s h e is s t il l th e r e e v e n

n o w.

Page 68 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u r e f e r a ls o t o M s C h o lo t a .

Who is

she and where was she working?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M s M o r o a d i C h o l o t a w a s w o r k in g i n t h e

O ff ic e o f th e Pr e m i e r a s th e Pr e m i e r ’s PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms C h o l o t a i s Ms M o r o a d i is th a t th e c o r r e c t … ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : M o r o a d i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e c o r r e c t p r o n u n c i a ti o n ? I g o t i t w r o n g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : M o r o a d i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Ye s a n d Ms M o r o a d i i s M s I p e le n g …
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : M o r a k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r a k e . O k a y. T h e y b o t h w o r k e d i n t h e O ff ic e o f th e
Premier?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w y o u p r e fa c e t h a t tr a n s a c t i o n s w it h

p a r a g r a p h 4 4 o n p a g e 1 4 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t .

Could you please read

t h a t p a r a g r a p h a n d w e w il l t h e n t u r n t o d e a l w i th th e s p e c i fi c a n n e x u r e s
to that?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : P a r a g r a p h 4 4 :
20

“ M r M p a m b a n i w a s i n c o n s t a n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i t h
t h e P e r s o n a l As s is t a n t o f P r e m ie r M a g a s h u l e t h a t is
one

M s M o r o a d i C h o l o ta

Ms Cholota.
behalf

of

referred

h e r e to

as

M s C h o lo t a w o u ld c o m m u n ic a t e o n
Mr M a g a s h u l e

all

h is

request

or

in s t r u c t i o n s w i t h s u b s t a n t i a l fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a t i o n s

Page 69 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
and

no

business

e n ti ty

could

sustain

in

i ts

c o m m e r c ia l w e l lb e in g a n d fo r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e I
a n n e x e d a l l th e s e a n n e x u r e s m a r k e d 2 D M 9 , 1 0 , 11
a n d 1 2 a n d 1 3 a s c o p ie s o f t h e e m a ils b e t w e e n
M s C h o l o t a t o Mr M p a m b a n i . It w ill b e n o t e d t h a t in
s o m e o f t h e e m a i ls o n e M s I p e l e n g M o r a k e s h a ll b e
r e fe r r e d t o a s M s M o r a k e fr o m t h e O ff i c e o f t h e
Premier

features

in s t r u c t i o n s

on

p r o m in e n tly
behalf

of

in

e x e c u ti n g

Mr Magashule

v ia

Ms Cholota.”

10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

d o c u m e n ts fr o m p a g e 11 3 .

Ye s .

Yo u

being

annexing

those

I f y o u m a y p l e a s e r e f e r t o th a t d o c u m e n t .

C o u ld y o u p l e a s e I D t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r u s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
( in d is ti n c t) d o c u m e n t 2 .

Th is is t h e e m a i l t h e s u b je c t th e r e is
Is i t f r o m M o r o a d i C h o l o t a i n th e P r e m i e r ’s

O ff ic e a n d t h e - th e e m a i l a d d r e s s is p r e m ie r @ f s p r e m i e r. g o v. z a t o
ig o @ d i a m o n d h il l .c o . z a .

Ig o M p a m b a n i

and

m p a m b a n i @ y a h o o .c o m .

T h e d a te is t h e 2 5 t h - 2 0 1 5 / 0 8 /1 2 a n d th e ti m e is 1 0 p a s t o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
the

P r e m ie r

to

the

service

S o t h i s e m a i l i s s e n t fr o m t h e o ffi c e o f
provider

that

you

have

m e n t io n e d

Mr Mpambani …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th e o n e w h o y o u s a y - w h o y o u s a i d w a s
in v o lv e d in t h e a s b e s t o s …

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . Ye s s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Skip?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w t h e r e i s a ls o a n e m a i l a t th e b o t to m
a n d I t h in k th a t is w h a t w e h a v e t o s t a r t w i t h in o r d e r t o g o t o th e o n e
o n to p . Ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h e o n e o n - o n t h e b o t t o m . I t is f r o m w h o to
who?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is o n e is fr o m R e f il o e M o k o e n a a n d i t - it
is
10

fr o m

th e

address

m a e to @ r e f il o e . m a s e z a @ g m a i l .c o m ( ? )
p r e m ie r @ f s p r e m i e r. g o v. z a

and

th e

sent
subject

email
on

address

1 7 J u ly 2 0 1 5

there

is

to

( i n d is t in c t )

document 2 and …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

( I n t e r v e n e s ) - s o r r y. Ye s . Yo u w a n t to

say something.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d i t r e a d s t h u s :
“ D e a r Pr e m i e r, h e r e w i t h p l e a s e fi n d t h e d o c u m e n t
f o r p u r p o s e s o f s e t ti n g m y d a u g h t e r ’s u n iv e r s i ty
account …”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S e t t li n g .
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : “ … o f s e tt li n g … ”
Ye s .
“ … m y d a u g h t e r ’s u n iv e r s i ty a c c o u n t.

Please know

t h a t t h e a n n u a l fe e s p a y a b l e a f t e r r e c e iv i n g th e
s c h o l a r s h i p is a p p r o x i m a t e ly U S $ 2 4 0 0 … ”
CHAIRPERSON: 24 000.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 24.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : “ … 2 4 2 9 8 . ”
T h a t is U S D o ll a r s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“The semester amount payable

b e f o r e 3 1 J u ly 2 0 1 5 i s h o w e v e r U S $ 1 2 1 4 9 . K in d ly
g o to th e li n k p r o v i d e d i n t h e ir e m a il a n d u s e t h e
f o ll o w i n g a c c e s s c o d e t o p a y n a m e l y u s e r n a m e is
g iv e n th e r e a n d t h e p a s s w o r d is g i v e n .
10

Please

a c k n o w l e d g e r e c e ip t a n d l e t m e k n o w i f y o u w i ll
a ls o

be

paying

fo r

e x p e n s e s a s w e ll .
you

fr o m

a s s is t a n c e .

the

her

tr a v e lli n g

and

l iv in g

I t a k e th is o p p o r t u n i ty t o th a n k

bottom

of

our

heart

for

your

I h a v e n o d o u b t t h a t m y d a u g h t e r w ill

m a k e g o o d u s e o f t h i s o p p o r tu n it y.

G od Bless,

R e f il o e M o k o e n a . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w b e f o r e I p o s e q u e s ti o n s c o u l d y o u

e x p l a i n th e c o n te n ts o f t h i s l e t t e r. W h a t w a s h a p p e n in g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

The

-

th e

person

r e fe r r e d

here

is

M s M o k o e n a - R e fi l o e M o k o e n a . A t s o m e s t a g e s h e h a d a d is t in c t a c t o p p o r t u n i ty a c t i n g a l s o a s - a s a J u d g e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d
s o m e t i m e s in G a u t e n g a n d e n d e d u p a t S A R S . C u r r e n tl y s h e is u n d e r
suspension at - at the - I think at SARS.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Now I - I am - I am much more - you

k n o w c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e e m a i l .

Page 72 of 278

What was being

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
conveyed and what was supposed to happen?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t is c l e a r t h a t t h is w a s d ir e c te d t o t h e

P r e m i e r a n d o n e w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t th e y m i g h t h a v e m e t t o d is c u s s th is
a n d s h e w a s f o l l o w in g u p o n th e m a t te r b e c a u s e o f t h e w a y t h i s is
w r i t t e n a n d e v e n t h a n k i n g t h e P r e m i e r i n a d v a n c e a n d t h is w a s a s k i n g
for

payment

of

s c h o o li n g

or

annual

fees

of

th e

-

of

M s R e fi l o e M o k o e n a ’s c h il d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Do you know why such a request would
b e m a d e b y Ms M o k o e n a t o th e Pr e m i e r ?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I h a v e n o i d e a b e c a u s e I - I t h in k th a t a s w e
w i ll b e d e a l i n g a t a la t e r s t a g e w i th t h e s e s c h o l a r s h i p s o r b u r s a r i e s o n e
w o u ld t h i n k t h a t a n y - a n y d e s e r v i n g s t u d e n t b u t a l s o a c l e a r c r i t e r ia
s h o u l d b e s e t u p f o r a n y p e r s o n t o d o t h is .

I t w i ll g o t h r o u g h t h e

normal processes.
T h e q u e s t io n I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d i s y o u w ill s e e C h a ir p e r s o n
t h is o n e w h e n i t is d ir e c te d t o t h e P r e m i e r a n d t a k i n g i n to c o n s i d e r a t i o n
t h e - t h e F r e e S t a t e p r i d e s i ts e l f i n m a k in g s u r e t h a t th e r e is - t h e r e a r e
- th e r e is a l o t o f k i d s w h o a r e s t u d y in g a b r o a d a n d - a n d h e r e a t h o m e
a n d th e r e i s a b u r s a r y - t h e r e i s a p r o g r a m a n d w e w i ll d e a l w i th t h a t .
20

O n e w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t w i ll b e c o m m o n p u r p o s e t h a t
t h e r e w h o l e t h i n g w o u ld g o th r o u g h t h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s a n d d e a l w i t h
t h is i n t h a t p a r ti c u la r w a y. S e n d i t o v e r t o t h e p e o p le w h o a r e d e a li n g
w i t h t h e - w i th t h e - w it h a l l t h e s e t h in g s . In t h i s c a s e i t w il l b e a s w e
w i ll s e e l a te r it w i ll b e t h e O ff ic e o f th e - t h e D G b u t M s M o r a k e i s
a c t u a ll y i n t h e O ffic e o f t h e Pr e m ie r b u t is w o r k i n g m o r e i n - w i t h r e g a r d

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t o t h e i n t e r n a ti o n a l s c h o l a r s - b u r s a r y h o l d e r s .
S h e is a - b u t in t h is c a s e w e s t il l w o r k i n g - d e a li n g w i t h t h e
le t t e r t h a t - th e e m a il t h a t w a s s e n t t o t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r f o r t h is
request.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t t h e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t h a d
a s p e c i a l s c h o l a r s h i p o r b u r s a r y fu n d t h a t i t u s e d t o a s s i s t o r s p o n s o r
o v e r - s t u d e n ts fr o m th e Fr e e S t a te P r o v in c e w h o w o u l d b e s tu d y i n g
o u t s i d e o f t h e c o u n tr y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

W h e n I w a s s t il l - I d o n o t k n o w i f th is h a s

c h a n g e d C h a ir p e r s o n . W h e n I w a s s t il l i n G o v e r n m e n t a s - a s M E C s f o r
in s t a n c e I w o u l d h a v e a - a - y o u k n o w a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o g i v e b u r s a r i e s
t o a t l e a s t 1 0 k i d s a n d i n t h a t i t w a s s ti p u l a te d th a t my c h il d r e n - m y
r e l a ti v e s o r a n y p e r s o n c l o s e t o m e s h o u l d n o t b e c o n s i d e r e d . It w a s
t h a t c o n d i ti o n .
S o y o u w il l b e a l l o c a t e d 1 0 k i d s t o - t o a l lo c a t e b u r s a r i e s to
a n d - a n d th a t w a s a c o n d i ti o n . I t s h o u ld n o t b e a n y p e r s o n r e l a t e d t o
m e i n a n y w a y a n d t h e n t h e - th e - t h e n t h e r e w a s t h is s c h o l a r s h i p
p r o g r a m t h a t w a s g iv e n t o - t o c h i ld r e n in t h e - i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d a s
w e w il l d e a l w i t h t h is w e w i ll d e m o n s tr a t e t h a t h o w t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s

20

w e n t a b o u t b u t t h e - th e is s u e i s t h e - I fo u n d i t s tr a n g e t h a t t h e p e r s o n
w o u ld g o s tr a i g h t t o t h e P r e m ie r.
U n l e s s th e p e r s o n k n o w s t h e P r e m ie r o r t h e fo r m e r Pr e m i e r
a n d y o u k n o w w i ll d i r e c t t h a t b u t u n d e r - u n d e r n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s
y o u w o u ld d ir e c t y o u r r e q u e s t t o t h e O ff i c e o f t h e D ir e c to r - G e n e r a l i n
t h is c a s e .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t m y q u e s t io n i s - w a s w h e th e r t o y o u r

k n o w l e d g e t h e Pr o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t h a d a s p e c ia l b u r s a r y f u n d o r
s c h o l a r s h i p th a t w a s f o r s tu d e n t s w h o w e r e s t u d y i n g o u t s i d e o f t h e
c o u n tr y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s i t h a s - it h a s t h a t p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a d t h a t p r o g r a m ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . I t h a s t h e p r o g r a m .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t s e p a r a t e fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t t o l d m e

a b o u t n a m e ly th a t a n M E C w o u l d b e a ll o c a t e d lik e 1 0
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t - it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t u d e n ts o r w a s t h a t p a r t o f t h e w h o l e p r o g r a m ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u r 1 0 s t u d e n ts b e c o m e p a r t o f t h e w h o l e

f u n d i n g t h in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i t w a s f o r b o t h i n s i d e t h e - s t u d y i n g i n s id e a n d

o u t s i d e o r o n ly o u t s i d e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n o u r c a s e - s a y i n m y c a s e I n e v e r f u n d e d
a n y s tu d e n t g o i n g a b r o a d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I w o u l d g iv e t h e - t h e - t h e s e to s t u d e n ts w h o
a r e s tu d y in g a t h o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In s i d e t h e c o u n tr y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n s i d e t h e c o u n t r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w a s t h e r e a li m i t a ti o n t o s a y y o u c a n o n l y u s e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h is a l lo c a t io n fo r s t u d e n ts w h o a r e s t u d y i n g in t h e c o u n tr y o r y o u - y o u
c a n - i t i s u p t o y o u w h e t h e r y o u a l s o a s s i s t s o m e b o d y w h o is s t u d y i n g
outside the country?

Wa s t h e r e a n y li m i t a t i o n o n t h a t a s f a r a s y o u

remember?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s th e r e w a s - t h e r e w a s C h a ir. Yo u - w e t h e - t h a t w a s d e t e r m i n e d a t t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r o f t h e s tu d e n t s
w h o w o u l d g o a b r o a d . I t s ta r t e d a s o n ly t h o s e w h o w e r e g o i n g to C u b a
a t th e t i m e f o r m e d ic in e . T h e n i t i n c l u d e d m a n y o th e r s b u t f o r a ll o t h e r
k id s w e w i ll th e n b e a l lo c a t e d 1 0 b u t a ls o y o u h a v e g o t th e t o p 1 0 0 k id s
10

a n d - a n d a l l t h e s e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t w e r e o ffe r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now you have explained the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o k o e n a m a y b e w e s h o u ld t a k e t h e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Oh, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te a - t e a b r e a k . I t is q u a r t e r p a s t . W e w i ll t a k e t h e
s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t 11 . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t ’s p r o c e e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr Dukwana just

b e f o r e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t w e w e r e s ti ll d e a li n g w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t o n
p a g e 11 3 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e h a v e n o w e x p la in e d th e b o t t o m p a r t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
o f t h e e m a il , n o w w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d fr o m y o u th a t t h e r e is a n
e m a i l o n t o p , d o y o u k n o w w h y w o u ld t h is r e q u e s t b e d i s p a tc h e d t o M r
M b a b a n e w h o is a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y Mr M o k o e n a y o u s a id t h e r e is a n e m a i l o n

t o p a t 11 3 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A t 11 3 y e s , i f y o u l o o k t h e r e ’s a li n e

C h a ir d iv id in g t h e t w o e m a ils .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , h a s h e r e a d th a t e m a il , d o y o u w a n t h i m t o r e a d

it fi r s t o r n o t.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

R e a d th e e m a il t o c o n t e x tu a lis e .

Th is e m a il is fr o m M o r a l i C h o lo t a t o E g o ,

t h a t is M r M b a b a n e , i t w a s d a t e d t h e 1 2 t h A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 a n d i t g o e s o n t o
s a y,
“ G o o d d a y th is w a s th e i n it i a l r e q u e s t s e n t t o th e P r e m i e r
r e g a r d s , M o r a li C h o lo t a ” .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

And it was sent at 10 minutes past one, 13h10.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

Ye s .

I s e e m t o t h i n k t h a t t h e o th e r o n e y o u r e a d w a s a ls o

s e n t m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e ti m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s 11 h 5 0 A M .

O h o k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O n a d i ff e r e n t d a t e C h a ir m e a n i n g t h a t

t h e o n e o n – a t t h e b o t t o m s e e m s to h a v e p r e c e d e d t h e o n e o n to p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o h ja a n d t h e y a r e o n d i ff e r e n t d a t e s a n d

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
d i ff e r e n t m o n t h s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w m y q u e s ti o n M r D u k w a n a , w h y

w o u ld t h a t r e q u e s t th a t w a s m a d e t o t h e P r e m i e r a s p e r t h e b o tt o m
e m a i l n o w b e in g s e n t t o t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

O n e c a n o n ly c o n c l u d e , C h a ir p e r s o n , b e f o r e

t h a t , th a t – b e fo r e c o n c l u d i n g , t h e Fr e e S t a te a s w e s a id h a s a b u r s a r y
p r o g r a m m e a n d it ’s m e a n t f o r k i d s w h o a r e – w h o c a n n o t a ffo r d b u t w h o
10

a r e – w h o q u a li fy t o g e t t h e b u r s a r y a n d o n e w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d th e
lo g i c a l th i n g t o d o , o n c e y o u g e t t h is k in d o f a b u r s a r y i f i t c o m e s a f t e r
t h e d e a d l in e y o u h a v e c l o s e d i s s u i n g t h e b u r s a r y y o u w o u l d – a s a
r e s p o n s i b l e p e r s o n y o u w o u l d in d i c a t e lik e th a t , t h a t y o u w o u ld n o t b e
a b l e t o h e l p a v o id i n g a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e r e ’s a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r d o in g
t h is a n d y o u t h e n a s k f a v o u r s fr o m t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h a t ’s a n a n s w e r t o M r

M o k o e n a ’s q u e s ti o n . I u n d e r s t o o d th e q u e s ti o n t o b e w h e th e r y o u a r e
a b l e t o s a y w h y Ms C h o l o t a w o u ld s e n d t h i s r e q u e s t t o M r M b a b a n e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

I t h o u g h t I g a v e a c o n t e x t C h a ir, to s a y y o u

h a v e a b u r s a r y s c h e m e a n d I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h y th is o n e s p e c if ic a l ly
w o u ld g o t o E g o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh so your answer is, you don’t understand why it

w a s s e n t o r w o u l d h a v e b e e n s e n t t o Mr M b a b a n e , th a t ’s th e a n s w e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y w e l l Mr M o k o e n a I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h e s u b je c t ,

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e e m a i l fr o m M s M o k o e n a h a s a s u b j e c t , [i n d is t in c t] , t h e o n e fr o m M s
C h o lo t a t o Mr M b a b a n e d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o h a v e a s u b j e c t , a m I r i g h t? I t
d o e s n ’t s e e m t o i d e n t if y t h e s u b j e c t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

It has.

Is t h a t b e c a u s e i t w a s a t t a c h i n g th e o n e fr o m Ms

Mokoena?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s r e f e r r i n g t o t h e o n e b e l o w o k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s r e f e r r i n g t o th e o n e b e l o w C h a ir.

O n e tr a il o f e m a i l .

O k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s b u t w e c a n a l s o d e a l w i t h o t h e r

d o c u m e n ts C h a i r to g iv e y o u t h a t , i f y o u m a y tu r n t o p a g e 11 7 s o t h a t
w e c a n u n d e r s t a n d th e s u b j e c t m a t te r, w h a t is t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
written

to

the

person

I t ’s t h e [i n d is t in c t ] c o ll e g e 8 M a y 2 0 1 5 i t’s
M a s iz a

who

stays

at

t h is

address

in

Johannesburg.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s a n d i t ’s fr o m t h a t [ in d is ti n c t ] c o l l e g e

am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h e a m o u n t – w h a t is t h e t o t a l

amount?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e t o t a l a m o u n t h e r e is 1 2 1 4 9 .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 11 3 w o u ld t h a t

a m o u n t a c c o r d t o w h a t y o u s e e i n t h e b o t to m e m a il , th e s e c o n d
paragraph?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s t h i s o n e i n th e e m a il R e fi lo e M o k o e n a

s t ip u l a t e s , e v e n c la r i fy in g h e r e t h e a m o u n t is 1 2 1 4 9 i t d o e s n o t s h o w
w h e t h e r i t ’s d o ll a r s o r r a n d s b u t h e r e i t s p e c i f ie s th e d o l la r s U S D o ll a r s
12 149.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w h a v i n g r e g a r d to t h a t s e q u e n c e o f

d o c u m e n ts m a y I r e fe r to a n o t h e r, o n p a g e 11 8 i f y o u c o u ld p le a s e
id e n t i fy th e d o c u m e n t a n d p l e a s e r e a d t h e c o n te n ts i n t o t h e r e c o r d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e s u b j e c t is P a y m e n t fr o m M o r o a d i

C h o lo t o , t h e Pr e m i e r ’s o ffic e t o I g n u s M b a b a n e a n d i t ’s d a te d t h e 1 8 t h
10

of August 2015,
“ G o o d m o r n i n g , p r o o f o f p a y m e n t r e c e i v e d a n d a c k n o w le d g e d ,
thank you very much, regards Moroadi Choloto, Personal
A s s is ta n t

to

Premier

o ff ic e

of

the

Premier

and

d a ti n g

e v e r y t h i n g t h a t is t h e r e ” .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s t h e r e a p p e a r s to b e a n o t h e r e m a il

a t t h e b o t to m i f y o u c a n a ls o r e a d i t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h i s o n e c a m e b e fo r e t h a t o n e i t w a s – i t ’s

w r i t t e n fr o m – i t c o m e s fr o m Mr Ig n u s M b a b a n e s e n t o n th e 1 7 t h o f
A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 t o M o r o a d i, PA P r e m i e r F r e e S t a t e , C C M o r o a d i , PA
20

P r e m i e r Fr e e S t a t e , s u b je c t p a y m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o fr o m t h a t t r a il w e ’l l s e e t h a t t h e r e

w a s i n i t ia l r e q u e s t i t g o e s to t h e o ff ic e o f th e P r e m i e r a n d i t ’s s e n t t o
t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a n d t h e s a i d p r o v i d e d d o e s p a y a m o u n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r h e r e in t h is e m a i l

s a y s – c o n fir m s h e s a y s ,

Page 80 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
“ G o o d d a y k i n d l y fi n d t h e p r o o f o f p a y m e n t fo r 4 0 0 0 D o ll a r s ,
regards Ignus Mbabane”.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e q u e s t fr o m M is s R e fil o e M o k o e n a a t p a g e

11 3 w h ic h w a s a d d r e s s e d t o t h e Pr e m i e r i s d a t e d 1 7 J u ly 2 0 1 5 , a n d t h e
email from Miss Moroadi Choloto

a n a s s i s t a n t in t h e P r e m ie r s o ff ic e ,

h e r e m a il t o Mr M b a b a n e is d a t e d 1 2 A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 a n d i t s a y s t h i s w a s
t h e i n i t ia l r e q u e s t s e n t to t h e P r e m ie r a n d w e a r e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t
t h e r e q u e s t is t h e o n e o f M i s s R e f il o e M o k o e n a a n d t h e n y o u m a d e
r e fe r e n c e a t p a g e 11 7 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t ’s a n a t t a c h m e n t o f w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d t o

be paid.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e a t t a c h m e n t d a t e d 8 M a y – o h th a t w a s fr o m t h e

college, 8 May giving the amount then we have then the email from Mr
M b a b a n e o n t h e 1 7 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 a d d r e s s e d t o M is s M o r o a d i
C h o lo t o , t h a t’s t h e PA t o t h e P r e m ie r w h i c h s a y s ,
“ K i n d ly fi n d t h e p r o o f o f p a y m e n t f o r 4 0 0 0 D o ll a r s ” ,
A n d th e n th e r e a ft e r o n th e 1 8 t h o f A u g u s t , th e f o l lo w i n g d a y
2 0 1 5 t h e r e ’s a n e m a il fr o m M is s C h o l o t o t o M r M b a b a n e a c k n o w l e d g in g
r e c e i p t o f p r o o f o f p a y m e n t a n d th a n k i n g h i m .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s t h e s e q u e n c e C h a ir.

O k a y th a n k y o u .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t’s e x a c tl y th e e v id e n c e o f th is

witness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o th is g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s i o n , y o u k n o w th e

p ic t u r e t h a t M i s s R e f il o e r e q u e s t e d th e P r e m ie r to s e t t le h e r d a u g h te r ’s

Page 81 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
f e e s a n d o n e o f t h e PA’s to t h e Pr e m i e r s e n t t h a t r e q u e s t t o M r
M b a b a n e a n d M r M b a b a n e m a d e p a y m e n t o f 4 0 0 0 D o ll a r s a n d s e n t
p r o o f o f p a y m e n t t o M is s C h o l o t o i n th e Pr e m ie r ’s o ffic e a n d M is s
C h o lo t o a c k n o w le d g e d r e c e i p t o f p a y m e n t?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t’s t h e s e q u e n c e , d o e s it c a p tu r e i t

n e a tl y Mr D u k w a n a ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ar ig h t l e t ’s p r o c e e d y o u i n l in e w i t h

w h a t I ’v e s a id i n y o u r p a r a g r a p h y o u t h e n r e f e r t o f u r t h e r p a y m e n t s if
y o u m a y t u r n to p a g e 11 9 a n d t a k e u s t h r o u g h a s to h o w d o y o u l in k i t
w i t h y o u r a r g u m e n ts i n p a r a g r a p h 4 3 . Id e n ti fy t h e d o c u m e n t fo r u s a n d
t e ll u s w h a t a r e t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d w h a t h a s t r a n s p i r e d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h is o n e is a ls o – t h e s u b j e c t is r e q u e s t fo r

p a y m e n t fr o m M o r o a d i C h o lo t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry what page are we?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

11 9 C h a ir.

O k a y th a n k y o u .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t ’s fr o m M o r o a d i C h o l o to f r o m t h e P r e m ie r ’s

o ffic e t o E g o @ d i a m o n d h i ll .c o .z a a n d a c o p y t o M o r a k e i o 2 3 3 @ g m i a l .c o m
d a t e d t h e 6 t h o f – I t h i n k i t’s M a y 2 0 1 5 ,
“ G o o d d a y, fo ll o w i n g th e d is c u s s i o n w i t h I p i le M o r a k e P r e m i e r
r e q u e s t e d th a t w e p a y f u l l a m o u n t 4 7 0 0 0 0 a n d t h e r e m a i n i n g
a m o u n t o f R 3 0 0 0 0 t o o n e o f th e S R C p r e s i d e n t i n C u b a , th e

Page 82 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a c c o u n t h o ld e r is S W C I n k a t a , a c c o u n t n u m b e r is g iv e n a n d
it ’s F N B , a m o u n t R 3 0 0 0 0 .

I hope the above is in order

r e g a r d s I p il e M o r a k e ” .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s p l e a s e m o r e d e t a i l to t h i s e m a il w h o

a r e – w h o d is p a tc h e s i t a n d w h o is t h e r e c i p i e n t o f t h a t e m a il ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I p i l e M o r a k e i s i n th e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r

d e a li n g w it h I G R o r G o v e r n m e n t R e l a ti o n s in t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r
a n d t h i s w a s fr o m M o r o a d i C h o lo t o g o i n g t o E g o b u t t h is w a s a d d r e s s e d
t o E g o , th is a m o u n t .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

R e m in d u s a s to w h o is E g o ?

Ego Mbabane is the – a partner to the joint

v e n tu r e t h a t g o t t h is a s b e s to s p r o je c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s t h e o n e t h a t r e fe r e n c e h a s b e e n m a d e to w h e n

w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e s c h o o l fe e s fo r M is s
M o k o e n a ’s d a u g h te r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

The same person?

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Th e s a m e p e r s o n .

Th e s a m e p e r s o n .

O k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o h e r e th e r e q u e s t i s m a d e f o r E g o t o

p a y fo r M r M b a b a n e a n d E g o t o p a y R 4 7 0 0 0 0 a n d r e m a i n i n g R 3 0 0 0 0
t o b e p a i d t o t h e S R C p r e s id e n t i n C u b a a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ’r e c o r r e c t .

I d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u mi g h t b e a b le t o s a y t o

in d i c a t e w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is h e r e .

Page 83 of 278

I’m not sure whether the

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
u n d e r s t a n d in g – t h e i n s tr u c t io n is t h a t t h e t w o a m o u n ts m u s t b e p a i d t o
t h e S R C p r e s id e n t i n C u b a o r w h e t h e r i t ’s o n ly t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 th a t h a s to
b e p a i d t o th e S R C a n d m a y b e th e fir s t a m o u n t o f R 4 7 0 0 0 0 is t o b e
p a i d s o m e w h e r e e ls e a n d t h e r e c i p ie n t is s u p p o s e d t o k n o w w h e r e i t is
t o b e p a i d , y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o a s s i s t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t ’s c l e a r th a t t h e o n l y a m o u n t , if y o u c h e c k

t h e d e ta il s o f t h e a c c o u n t h o l d e r a n d t h a t t h e a m o u n t i s s p e c i f ie d t h a t i t
s h o u l d b e R 3 0 0 0 0 a n d th a t w o u l d m e a n t h e p e r s o n w a s s u p p o s e d to
p a y R 5 0 0 0 0 0 i n t o t a l . Th e R 4 7 0 0 0 0 is p a i d – s h o u ld b e p a i d b u t t h e
10

r e m a in in g R 3 0 0 0 0 s h o u ld a c t u a l ly g o to t h is a c c o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e t w o a m o u n ts a r e

n o t t o b e p a id t o t h e S R C p r e s id e n t i t ’s o n l y t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e R 3 0 0 0 0 .

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u m a y r e fe r t o p a g e 1 2 0 a n d a ls o

t a k e u s th r o u g h t h a t d o c u m e n t b u t f ir s t ly b y i d e n t i fy i n g i t a n d t h e r e a f te r
p l e a s e c o m m e n t i ts c o n te n ts .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h i s o n e a ls o h a s t h e o ff ic e s t a m p o f t h e

P r e m i e r o f t h e Fr e e S t a te a n d it ’s f r o m M o r o a d i C h o l o to , P e r s o n a l
20

A s s is ta n t t o t h e F r e e S t a t e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r, t h e s u b j e c t is ,
r e q u e s t f o r fu n d i n g to I g n a t iu s M b a b a n e a n d i s d a t e d t h e 2 8 t h o f
January 2016 and it says,
“Good

d a y,

kindly

f in d

th e

b e lo w

d e t a il s

as

d is c u s s e d

t e l e p h o n ic a l ly, a c c o u n t n a m e is g iv e n , a c c o u n t n u m b e r i s a
tr a v e l a g e n c y a n d i t’s a n a m o u n t o f R 2 5 0 0 0 0 w r it t e n a ls o i n

Page 84 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w o r d s , t w o h u n d r e d a n d fi f ty th o u s a n d . P l e a s e s e n d th e p r o o f
o f p a y m e n t t o t h e a b o v e e m a il a d d r e s s , t h a n k y o u i n a d v a n c e ,
warm regards”.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o t h is is a f u r t h e r r e q u e s t m a d e t o Mr

Mbabane?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

To a ls o p a y th is a m o u n t ?

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

If I may refer you to the next document

on page 121…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h i s t i m e th e a m o u n t is R 2 5 0 0 0 0 ?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

A n d o n t h e f a c e o f t h is e m a i l , i t’s n o t c l e a r w h a t t h e

a m o u n t w a s f o r, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

O n e c a n d e d u c e i t w a s f o r tr a v e l li n g

b e c a u s e t h e y p a i d to a tr a v e l a g e n c y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s o k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s th e n e x t d o c u m e n t i s o n p a g e 1 2 1 .
T h e s u b j e c t is t h e i n v o ic e fr o m M o r o a d i

C h o lo t o a t t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff ic e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is th a t a d i ffe r e n t a m o u n t, a d i ff e r e n t tr a n s a c ti o n o r

a r e w e s ti ll c o n n e c t e d w i th t h i s o n e o f R 2 5 0 0 0 0 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I th in k i t ’s s t il l c o n n e c te d C h a ir.

Page 85 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t m e a s k th e q u e s ti o n I w a n te d t o a s k . W i th

r e g a r d to th e R 2 5 0 0 0 0 w h ic h w a s t o b e p a i d t o A s tr a Tr a v e l , M r
D u k w a n a a r e y o u – h a v i n g b e e n i n G o v e r n m e n t f o r t h e l o n g t i m e th a t
y o u w e r e i n G o v e r n m e n t a r e y o u a b le t o t h r o w a n y li g h t a s to w h y t h e
o ffic e o f t h e P r e m i e r w o u ld i n s tr u c t s o m e b o d y i n p r iv a t e b u s i n e s s t o
m a k e a p a y m e n t to a tr a v e l a g e n t , o f t h is k in d o f a m o u n t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h i s is , l ik e I s a i d , u n d e r n o r m a l

c ir c u m s ta n c e s le a d e r s w o u l d a v o i d s u c h tr a n s a c ti o n s h a p p e n i n g , y o u
w o u ld n o t g e t o n e p e r s o n w h o w o u l d g o to a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r,
10

e s p e c i a l ly if i t is a n o ff ic i a l tr i p o r w h a t e v e r th a t y o u a s k s o m e b o d y t o
p a y f o r y o u r c o s t – t o b e a r y o u r c o s t o f t r a v e l li n g o r a n y o th e r p e r s o n
f o r t h a t m a t t e r. S o i t ’s s o m e th i n g v e r y s tr a n g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t a b l e to t h r o w l i g h t o n

o th e r – b u t y o u s a y y o u d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d it to b e n o r m a l f o r s u c h a
t h i n g t o h a p p e n , i f i t r e l a te s t o y o u r o ff ic ia l ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

I f y o u r e m e m b e r C h a i r p e r s o n , I t o ld y o u

y e s t e r d a y, I t o l d th e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t in t h e F r e e S t a te a s y s te m t h a t
u n d e r m i n e d a s y s t e m o f g o o d g o v e r n a n c e e m e r g e d i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e
and as such abnormal things would happen.
20

S o m e t h in g t h a t is n o t

s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n w o u l d h a p p e n a n d t h e s e t h i n g s w o u ld h a p p e n w it h
i m p u n it y b e c a u s e p e o p l e w e r e b e c o m i n g a l a w u n t o t h e m s e l v e s . U n d e r
n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s th is s h o u l d n o t h a p p e n a n d I ’ m s a y i n g t h i s i s t h e
p e r s o n w h o g e ts i t a n d w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a n u n s o li c i t e d b i d a n d a l l
t h e s e o th e r t h i n g s t h a t a r e r a is e d a n d i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h is t h e r e is s o
m u c h r e q u e s t c o m i n g y o u p a y t h is , y o u m u s t p a y t h is .

Page 86 of 278

Any business

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
p e r s o n , if y o u w a n t t o h e l p a b u s i n e s s a n d y o u a ff e c t th e c a s h fl o w o f
s u c h a b u s in e s s y o u a r e k il li n g it .

I n t h i s c a s e h e r e ’s a p e r s o n w h o

g e t s t h is b u s i n e s s a n d is w o r k i n g , y o u n o w h a v e d e m a n d s c o m i n g fr o m
t h e o ffi c e o f t h e Pr e m i e r, p a y th is a m o u n t, p a y th is a m o u n t , I m e a n
R 4 7 0 0 0 0 , R 5 0 0 0 0 0 i n t o t a l, R 2 0 0 0 0 0 a n d s o m e t h i n g a g a i n , t h i s is
r id ic u l o u s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e R 4 7 0 0 0 0 p l u s R 3 0 0 0 0 w h ic h m a k e R 5 0 0 0 0 0

w a s i n A u g u s t I t h i n k 2 0 1 5 a n d th e R 2 5 0 0 0 0 i s i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 , s o
t h a t m e a n s i f M r M b a b a n e o r h is c o m p a n y p a i d t h e s e t w o a m o u n t s t h a t
10

m e a n s b y e n d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 , i t m e a n s m o r e o r l e s s w i t h i n s ix
m o n th s , h e w o u l d h a v e p a i d m o r e th a n – a r o u n d R 7 5 0 0 0 0 a t th e
r e q u e s t o f t h e o ff ic e o f th e Pr e m i e r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h ja s o it w o u l d b e m o r e t h a n R 7 0 0 0 0 0 ?

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a v e e x c lu d e d th e 4 0 0 0 U S D o l l a r s .

I t w o u ld b e m o r e t h a n t h a t .

W e ll i t c o u l d n ’ t – t h e p a y m e n t t o t h e t r a v e l a g e n ts

c o u l d n ’ t b e f o r t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ffi c i a l t r i p s b e c a u s e t h o s e w o u l d b e p a id
f o r b y G o v e r n m e n t , th e r e w ill b e n o r e a s o n f o r s o m e b u s i n e s s p e r s o n to
pay for those.
20

S o th e q u e s ti o n w o u l d b e w h e t h e r t h a t a m o u n t c o u l d

h a v e b e e n f o r t h e P r e m i e r ’s p e r s o n a l tr i p s a n d if it w a s f o r t h e
P r e m i e r ’s p e r s o n a l tr i p s th a t c o u ld r a is e q u e s t io n s a s w e l l.

Yo u h a v e

a l lu d e d t o o n e q u e s t i o n , i f i t w a s fo r s o m e b o d y e ls e ’s tr i p t h e n t h e r e
w o u ld b e q u e s t io n o f w h y t h e Pr e m i e r w o u l d g e t in v o lv e d i n tr y in g t o
o r g a n i s e p a y m e n t f o r tr ip s f o r s o m e b o d y e l s e a n d w h y th o s e p e o p le
w o u ld n ’t g o d ir e c tl y t o M r M b a b a n e o r w h o e v e r i f t h e y n e e d e d a n y

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a s s is t a n c e w i t h tr a v e ll i n g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e q u e s ti o n t h a t m u s t b e a s k e d a l l th e t i m e

is w h y p e o p le w o u l d f e e l c o m f o r ta b le i n a p p r o a c h i n g t h e o ff ic e o f t h e
P r e m i e r a n d g e t t in g th is t h in g . T h e – a s y o u s a y, I d o n ’ t th i n k t h i s w a s
f o r t h e t r a v e ll in g o f t h e P r e m ie r I th i n k h e w a s f a c il i ta t in g fo r s o m e b o d y
e ls e o r s o m e p e o p le a n d th e q u e s t io n w o u ld a l s o b e r e l e v a n t w h a t y o u
r a i s e d , w h y t h e n t h e o ffic e o f t h e P r e m ie r s h o u l d g e t i ts e l f i n v o lv e d in
f a c i li t a ti n g s u c h e s p e c ia ll y w i th a p e r s o n w h o w a s d o in g b u s i n e s s w i t h
Government.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e a m o u n t o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 w a s i n A u g u s t

2 0 1 5 , th e l e t t e r o f a p p o in t m e n t s a id t h e a p p o in t m e n t f o r M r M b a b a n e ’s
c o m p a n y w a s fr o m 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 t o e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 b u t th e r e
w e r e p a y m e n ts e n v i s a g e d b e y o n d t h a t e v e n i n M a y 2 0 1 5 , s o t h is is –
t h is r e q u e s t f o r J u ly, th e p a y m e n t w a s i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 a n d w e k n o w t h a t
la t e r i n 2 0 1 7 th e r e i s th a t s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e d e a l t w i t h
e a r l ie r, o k a y th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr Dukwana on page 121 it appears

t h a t th e r e is a n a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f p a y m e n t , p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h
t h a t i t m i g h t b e li n k e d w i th t h e o n e o n 1 2 0 u n l e s s y o u t e s t i fy d i ff e r e n tl y.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th is c o m e s fr o m M o r o a d i a n d it s a y s ,

“ A f t e r n o o n t o Ig n a ti u s M b a b a n e , k in d ly n o te th a t t h e p r o o f o f
p a y m e n t i s w e ll r e c e i v e d a n d a p p r e c ia t e d .

Wa r m r e g a r d s

M o r o a d i C h o l o t o P e r s o n a l A s s is t a n t t o P r e m i e r o ffic e o f t h e
Premier”.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s s o c le a r ly w h e n t h o s e r e q u e s ts

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w e r e m a d e to M r M b a b a n e h e d i d c o m p ly w i t h s a m e a n d e ffe c t t h o s e
p a y m e n t s a s w e h a v e a lr e a d y d e m o n s tr a t e d w i th d i ff e r e n t A n n e x u r e s to
your statement.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s t h is o n e a ls o , if y o u c h e c k a n d r e a d ,

t h is w a s a ls o a r e s p o n s e t o t h e o n e t h a t w a s s e n t e a r l i e r b y M r
M b a b a n e c o n f ir m in g th e p a y m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , n o w i f I m a y r e f e r y o u b a c k t o p a g e

1 4 b e c a u s e y o u m a k e c o n c l u d i n g r e m a r k s o n th e s e p a y m e n t s t h a t y o u
h a v e d e a l t w i t h a n d y o u d e a l w i t h th e m o n p a r a g r a p h 4 4 a n d 4 6 , C h a i r
10

o n p a g e 1 4 , i f y o u c a n r e a d t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s i n to t h e r e c o r d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

From page 14, 44 and 46.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : “ M r M b a b a n e w a s in c o n s t a n t c o m m u n ic a ti o n
w i t h t h e p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t o f P r e m ie r M a g a s h u l e , o n e M is s
M o r o a d i C h o lo t o , M is s C h o l o to w o u l d c o m m u n ic a te o n b e h a l f
o f M r M a g a s h u le o n h i s r e q u e s t o r i n s tr u c ti o n w i th s u b s t a n t ia l
fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s . N o b u s i n e s s e n t i ty c o u l d s u s t a in i n h is
c o m m e r c ia l w e ll- b e i n g a n d I a t t a c h A n n e x u r e s t h e r e o f a s
c o p i e s o f th e e m a i ls b e t w e e n M i s s C h o l o t o t o M b a b a n e to M r
20

M b a b a n e i t w i ll b e n o t e d t h a t i n s o m e o f t h e e m a i ls , o n e M i s s
I p il e

Morake

from

the

o ff ic e

of

the

Premier

f e a tu r e s

p r o m in e n t ly i n e x e c u ti n g i n s tr u c t io n s o n b e h a l f o f M a g a s h u l e
v ia M i s s C h o l o t o . 4 5 . I t is a p p a r e n t fr o m th e e m a i ls b e t w e e n
M is s C h o l o to a n d Mr M b a b a n e t h a t p a y m e n t s w e r e a d v a n c e d
f o r e v e r y [ in d i s ti n c t ] r e q u e s t t h a t w a s m a d e t o Mr M b a b a n e o n

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
b e h a l f o f Mr M a g a s h u l e a s [i n d is t in c t ] in t h e s a i d e m a il s a t a l l
m a t e r i a l ti m e s t h e r e to . Th e o ff ic ia l e m a il s o f M is s C h o lo t o a n d
M is s

Morake

were

used

to

c o m m u n ic a t e

request

and

a c k n o w l e d g e p a y m e n ts o f m o n i e s a n d e x e c u ti n g i n s tr u c ti o n s a t
t h e b e h e s t o f M r M a g a s h u le .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And paragraph 46 you draw certain

in f e r e n c e s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“An inference could be drawn that each time

p a y m e n t w a s a d v a n c e d t o B l a c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g J V b y th e
10

Fr e e S t a te D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s i n g , M i s s C h o l o t o o r M is s
M o r a k e w e r e i n f o r m e d u n d o u b te d ly b o t h w o u l d i n f o r m M r
M a g a s h u le f o l l o w e d b y a h o n o r o u s r e q u e s t o r i n s tr u c t io n to M r
M b a b a n e r e s u l ti n g i n t h e l a tt e r m a k i n g p a y m e n ts a s r e q u e s t e d
o r i n s tr u c t e d b y M r M a g a s h u l e ” .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s , n o w l e t ’s m o v e o n t o p a g e 1 5 o f

y o u r s t a te m e n t in p a r a g r a p h 4 7 y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o a c o n c e p t w h ic h I’ m
s u r e t h a t i t ’s fo r e ig n t o m e a n d t h e C h a ir, p le a s e i f y o u c a n r e a d a n d
e x p l a i n w h a t y o u ’r e c o n v e y i n g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

“ 4 7 . Mr M a g a s h u l e w a s s i m p l y a b l e s s i n g t o

m a n y d u e to p a y m e n ts a d v a n c e d b y M r M b a b a n e fr o m m o n i e s
c o r r u p tly a n d fr a u d u l e n t ly s o u r c e d fr o m t h e S t a t e c o ff e r s
t h r o u g h t h e a s b e s t o s p r o j e c t a t t h e b e h e s t o f Mr M a g a s h u le ,
M r M b a b a n e p a id s u m s o f m o n i e s f o r s o m e s t u d e n ts s t u d y i n g
t h r o u g h v a r i o u s U n iv e r s i t ie s h e r e a n d a b r o a d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . M r C h a ir s p e a k i n g f o r m y s e l f I a m

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
n o t s u r e w h a t i s a b l e s s e r b u t I th i n k y o u w e r e s ti ll p r o c e e d i n g t o d e a l
w i t h t h e c o n c e p ts .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is – i t is a [i n d is ti n c t ] o l d a g e s y o u w o u ld
u s e Fa t h e r C h r is t m a s b u t n o w y o u y o u k n o w i t i s a b l e s s e r i n t h e s e n s e
t h a t y o u – y o u a g r e e to r e q u e s t t h a t p e r s o n a lly y o u n o t a b l e t o d o b u t
y o u f a c il it a t e t h i s o n b e h a l f o f o t h e r p e o p l e . A n d – a n d w o r s e i t c o m e s
fr o m t h e – t h e s e r v i c e p r o v id e r t h a t is w o r k i n g w i t h t h e – w it h y o u r
government.

S o y o u k n o w i t is t a k i n g t h is – y o u g iv in g a n d ta k i n g i t

a n d g iv in g t h e r e s o t h a t y o u w i ll b e s e e n t o b e th is p e r s o n w h o w o u ld
10

d o e v e r y th i n g t o d e m o n s tr a t e t h a t y o u c a r e b u t a t t h e e x p e n s e o f t h e
p u b lic r e s o u r c e s t h a t a r e a c q u i r e d fr a u d u l e n t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o a s I s a id y o u k n o w fo r t h e – ju s t t o a v o i d
b e i n g s e e n a s o ld a n d c o m i n g t o th e n e w g e n e r a ti o n t h e b le s s e r w o u l d
fi t w e ll a s o p p o s e d t o th e F a t h e r C h r is t m a s .
CHAIRPERSON: And I see you referred to a blesser would that be a
blessee?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e o n e w h o [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f s o w h o w o u l d b e t h e b l e s s e e i n t h is c o n te x t?

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
Mokoena.

I n o n e c o n te x t t h e b l e s s e e w il l b e M r – Ms

T h a t w i ll b e a b l e s s e e fo r t h e f a c t t h a t t h e b l e s s e r u p o n

r e c e i v i n g y o u r r e q u e s t w e n t t o t h e p r o v i d e r w h o w o u l d d o th a t o n b e h a l f
o f t h e b le s s e r a n d g e t to t h e b l e s s e e M s M o k o e n e i n th is c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld M r M p a m b a n i n o t b e a ls o b e – b e a b le s s e e i n
t e r m s o f a n y g o v e r n m e n t w o r k if t h e r e w a s g o v e r n m e n t w o r k t h a t h e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w a s b e i n g g iv e n o r t h a t w o u ld n o t – th e te r m w o u l d n o t f i t i n t h e r e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W e c a n u s e it e v e n t o h i m i n t h is c a s e w h e r e
y o u g e t m o n e y a n d t h e n y o u u s e i t w h e n e v e r th e r e is a r e q u e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A lr i g h t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

B u t w h a t is v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n is

w h y w o u l d t h e r e q u e s t c o m e f r o m t h e h i g h e s t o ffi c e i n t h e p r o v i n c e ?
A n d – a n d g o t o t h i s p e r s o n a n d e v e r y t h i n g h a p p e n s th is w a y. T h a t i s
why we – you know you say once you respect the laws and every – the
a c t y o u p r o t e c t t h e o ff ic e fr o m a l l t h e s e k in d s o f t h i n g s a n d o n c e y o u
10

a r e i n a n o ff ic e y o u n e e d t o d e m o n s tr a te t h a t a n d m a k e s u r e th a t y o u
p r o t e c t th a t o ffi c e . B u t d r a w i n g th a t o ff ic e t o is s u e s li k e th is is a c tu a lly
u n d e r m i n i n g t h e o ffic e a n d a l s o a b u s i n g y o u r a u t h o r i ty i n t h is r e g a r d
because if the request was made and Mr Mpambani did not respond
p o s i ti v e ly t h is w o u l d h a v e a ls o p u t h i m in t h e d i ff ic u l t s i tu a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . I t h o u g h t y o u r c o u n s e l w a n te d t o s a y s o m e t h i n g
a t s o m e s ta g e m a y b e i t h a s fa ll e n a w a y.
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

C h a i r p e r s o n I w a s i n tr i g u e d b y y o u r s mi l e

w h e n t h e c o n c e p t o f b l e s s e r is b e i n g d is c u s s e d .

It appears the

C h a ir p e r s o n i s w e l l v e r s e d w i th t h e c o n c e p t o f b l e s s e r a n d b l e s s e e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n r e a d s n e w s p a p e r s a n d – a n d

w a t c h e s – is t o u c h w it h w h a t h a p p e n s in S o u t h A fr i c a . T h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A s in d ic a te d C h a ir y o u c a n e x c l u d e m e I
a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e c o n c e p t . Yo u in p a r a g r a p h 4 8 a n d 4 9 t h e i s s u e s
t h a t y o u c a n v a s s t h e r e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d o n t h o s e i s s u e s s o i t
is n o t n e c e s s a r y fo r u s to r e p e a t t h a t e v i d e n c e b u t I w a n t to d r a w y o u r

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a tt e n ti o n t o p a r a g r a p h 5 0 o f y o u r w i tn e s s s t a t e m e n t w h e r e y o u l in k
d i ff e r e n t p a y m e n t s w i t h t h a t a s b e s t o s s c h e m e .

P l e a s e r e a d fo r u s

p a r a g r a p h 5 0 a n d e x p l a in ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ E v e n ts fr o m t h e e m a il s b e t w e e n Ms C h o l o ta a n d M r
M p a m b a n i a ll t h e r e q u e s t s o r i n s tr u c ti o n s o r i g i n a t e d
fr o m M r M a g a s h u la .

A n d i n f e r e n c e c o u ld b e d r a w n

that the asbestos audit was but an asbestos audit
h e is t s p o n s o r e d b y t h e P r e m i e r o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e
10

G o v e r n m e n t . T h e A s b e s t o s A u d i t H e is t w a s e x e c u t e d
t h r o u g h t h e P r e m ie r ’s o ffic e b y Mr M a g a s h u l e ’s
p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t e m p lo y e d b y g o v e r n m e n t a t t h e
b e h e s t o f M r M a g a s h u l e . Th is w a s n o t o n l y a b la t a n t
abuse of power by Mr Magashule but a brazen
c o m m i s s io n o f f r a u d , m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g a n d d a y l ig h t
r o b b e r y o f th e p u b l ic p u r s e . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w y o u a ls o p r o c e e d to a tt a c h a
s p r e a d s h e e t t o y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d y o u a t ta c h i t a s A n n e x u r e 2 D M 1 4 .
M r C h a ir t h a t s p r e a d s h e e t is t o b e fo u n d o n p a g e 1 2 4 .

20

CHAIRPERSON: I have found it.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Now that spreadsheet Mr Dukwana

r e fl e c ts fu r t h e r p a y m e n ts a n d b e n e fi c i a r ie s w h ic h m i g h t h a v e b e e n p a i d
t h e a m o u n t s w h i c h a r e r e f le c te d i n th a t s p r e a d s h e e t , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C o u ld y o u t a k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s p r e a d s h e e t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y – b e fo r e h e d o e s t h a t c a n I k n o w w h e r e t h e
s p r e a d s h e e t c o m e s fr o m ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir d e fi n i t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

M r D u k w a n a c o u ld y o u a l s o e x p l a in t o

t h e C h a ir th e s o u r c e i f y o u c a n o f t h is s p r e a d s h e e t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Fr o m M r M p a m b a n i ’s e m a i ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t – fr o m M r M p a m b a n i ’s e m a i ls ?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e o f t h e e m a ils ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O n e o f t h e e m a il s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s a t t a c h e d th e r e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is a n e m a i l c o m i n g fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s i n a n e m a i l? O k a y.
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : M a y I a s s i s t C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : I t is p a r t o f t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V S M A N G A S E T H E N E : T h a t e m a i l i s a t ta c h e d i n t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y
s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

P e r h a p s i t w o u l d b e fi t ti n g i f Mr M o k o e n a

c a n s ta r t w i t h th a t e m a i l t o g iv e a c o n t e x t t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t b e fo r e w e g o i n t o th e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
c o n te n t o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e t t o s e e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir y o u w il l fi n d t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y

fr o m p a g e 2 2 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: 222? I do not seem to have 222 I seem to have up to
221.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I a m r e li a b ly in f o r m e d Mr C h a ir th a t i t

w a s p l a c e d i n y o u r f il e i n s t e a d – m a y b e i t is p a r t o f th o s e d o c u m e n ts
t h a t w e n t t o r e a d s e p a r a t e ly b e f o r e m a k in g th e – t h e r u li n g o f th e
o b s e r v a t i o n t h a t t h e C h a ir m a d e s u b s e q u e n t t o d i ffe r e n t p a r t ie s h a v e
10

m a d e s u b m is s i o n s t o t h e C h a ir. S o i t m i g h t b e t h a t i t is s o m e w h e r e – i t
is ly i n g s o m e w h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t if w e m a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I t h i n k a n y d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e h a n d e d u p ju s t –

s o m e b o d y m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y a r e p u t in a n d i t s h o u ld b e
s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e l e g a l t e a m b e c a u s e h e m i g h t n o t k n o w e x a c t ly
w h e r e to p u t i t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e r e t o p u t i t i n – Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I h a v e – I c a n m a k e u s e o f t h a t.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f fa c i li ty –

f a c i li t a ti n g t h i s d e b a t e w e m a y h a n d y o u a f u r th e r c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h i le th e C h a ir is s ti ll p u t t in g t h a t

d o c u m e n t i n i ts fi le M r D u k w a n a y o u c a n a ls o q u ic k ly g o m a r k t h e
p a r a g r a p h s t h a t li n k s t h o s e d i ffe r e n t e m a il s a n d t h e e m a il i n q u e s t io n .

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u s a y th e s u p p l e m e n ta r y s ta t e m e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a t e m e n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C a n y o u r e p e a t t h e in s t r u c t i o n a g a in ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G o to p a g e 2 2 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h is is t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t t h a t I w a s to ld
a b o u t;
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t e r d a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s t e r d a y. Ye s te r d a y C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: But you say it was handed up?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u r e a d – y o u a l s o h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty
to go and read it in chambers.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh that is the one that I read.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s f o r y o u t o c o m e a n d m a k e a r u l in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w h e n I r e a d i t i t w a s in t h e o th e r b u n d l e w h ic h is
not here.

I d o n o t k n o w i f i t is s u p p o s e d t o b e h e r e .

That was the

b u n d l e th a t h a d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ?
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n m i s p l a c e d th e r e

in a d v e r te n tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t it is fi n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r m a y b e th e y m ig h t n o t h a v e a p p r e c ia t e d t h a t t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r b u n d l e w h ic h h a s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s r e q u ir e d t o d a y.

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A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d . I p r o b a b l y
a ls o d i d n o t th i n k i t w a s r e q u ir e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : R e q u ir e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t w a s [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t b e th a t a s i t m a y C h a ir w e w i ll m a k e
s u r e th a t i t i s p la c e d a n d i n th e p r o p e r p l a c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Correspondence.

Ja.

Maybe what you – what you

c a n – w h a t y o u c a n c l a r if y b e c a u s e I u n d e r s to o d i t t o b e h a n d e d u p
10

simply for convenience in regard to the argument that was to be
p r e s e n t e d a n d t h a t is w h y w e d i d n o t a d m i t a s a n E x h i b i t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d m a y b e i t m ig h t b e a ls o – b e

a p p r o p r i a t e f o r u s to m a r k i t a c c o r d i n g ly.
CHAIRPERSON: If …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h a t w e d o n o t lo s e i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h e i n te n ti o n i s to h a v e i t a s a n E x h i b i t t h e n w e w il l
h a v e t o d o th a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y a s a n e x h ib i t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ja.

B u t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r w e n e e d to d o t h a t

in s o f a r a s i t r e f e r s t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B e c a u s e i t i s s o m e – i t is s i m p ly

s u p p l e m e n t in g w h a t i s a lr e a d y e x is ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h is E x h i b i t X 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t m a y b e t h a t y o u n e e d t o c h e c k w h a t i t is t h a t i s

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e r e th a t r e a l ly n e e d s t o b e p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e a s s u c h . O b v io u s ly
t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t is i m p o r ta n t.

But the supplementary

s t a te m e n t m i g h t w e ll b e l o n g h e r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R a th e r t h a n i n th a t o t h e r fi le .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o i t d o e s n o t d e f in i te ly y o u k n o w

b e l o n g i n th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e o t h e r fi le . Ye s ,y e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : R e m e m b e r t h a t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f il e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Wa s m e r e ly t o p l a c e d i ff e r e n t it e m s t h a t
w e r e r e c e iv e d a t t h e l a s t m o m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h a t in c l u d e d a ls o y o u k n o w th e

supplementary statement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t I t h i n k it s h o u ld b e l o n g i n th e m a i n
fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d m a y b e to b e i d e n ti f ie d a s y o u k n o w
Exhibit.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : X 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O r E x h i b i t X X 7 C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e f e r to X 7 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u t a lk a b o u t th a t b u n d l e .

When you say X7 what

a r e y o u t a lk in g a b o u t?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o I a m s a y in g t h a t m a y b e t h is

s u p p l e m e n t a r y s h o u l d b e r e fe r r e d t o .
CHAIRPERSON: As X7.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A s Ex h i b it X 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit X7.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n w h i c h c a s e s h o u ld i t n o t b e o n a s e p a r a te – w o u l d
t h e r e b e a p r o b le m i f i t is s i m p ly a d d e d h e r e a s p a r t o f t h is E x h i b i t a n d
n o t a s a s e p a r a te e x h i b i t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e a r e – w e a r e e a s y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k th a t i s – b e c a u s e t h is is w h e r e i t b e lo n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is w h e r e i t b e lo n g s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll t h e o t h e r s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e h e r e . O k a y s o le t u s n o t m a r k i t s e p a r a t e ly. S o

20

…
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t c a n b e r e f e r r e d t o a s a s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w i ll s i m p l y b e a d d e d a t th e e n d o f E x h i b i t X . J a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A t t h e e n d o f Ex h ib i t X 5 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . Th a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

I h a v e g o t it .

Th e s p r e a d s h e e t – I th in k s o m e b o d y

s a i d it is p a r t – w a s a t t a c h e d t o th e – to t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a te m e n t ,
is t h a t r i g h t ? T h e s p r e a d s h e e t th a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e s p r e a d s h e e t C h a ir i t i s p a r t a n d

parcel of the main.
CHAIRPERSON: Of the main.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O f t h e m a i n s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e m a i n s t a te m e n t j a . W h ic h is X 5 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h a t i s w h e r e w e h a v e l o c a te d i n t h e
s p r e a d s h e e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e t h e n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . I f y o u g o t o t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u
a r e r e fe r r i n g t o M r D u k w a n a a n d i n li n e w i t h t h e q u e s ti o n p o s e d to y o u
b y th e C h a ir y o u d i d p r o v i d e a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i n t h a t s t a te m e n t y o u a ls o d e a l w i th
s o m e o f th e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h w e r e i n i ti a l ly n o t a n n e x e d t o y o u r
s t a te m e n t , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: If you turn to page 225.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ta k e u s t h r o u g h p a r a g r a p h 11 a n d 1 2

a n d te ll u s a s to h o w s h o u l d w e li n k th a t to th is s p r e a d s h e e t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h i s – s e e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n M r
M p a m b a n i a n d S o d i . P a r a g r a p h 11 I r e fe r t o p a r a g r a p h 5 2 .1 I m a d e
r e fe r e n c e t o t h e e m a il e x c h a n g e s b e t w e e n M r M p a m b a n i a n d S o d i
r e l a ti n g t o p a y m e n t s e ffe c t e d f o r a s b e s t o s h e is t .

I t a p p e a r s I o n ly

a n n e x e d t h e s p r e a d s h e e t a n d n o t th e c o p y o f t h e s a i d e m a i l . I a n n e x
h e r e t o m a r k e d 2 D M S 2 b e i n g a c o p y o f t h e e m a i l e x c h a n g e in is s u e .
T h e e m a il fr o m M p a m b a n i to S o d i r e a d s :
“ S u r e E d d ie I h a v e a ffe c te d t h e p a y m e n t i n tw o

10

batches.

K in d ly f in d a t ta c h e d t h e u p d a t e d s c h e d u l e

w i t h t h e f o l l o w i n g m i n o r a d j u s t m e n ts .
m il li o n

to

R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 .

I

hope

J T fr o m R 1
the

is s u e

s u p p l e m e n t e d a b o v e a r e i n o r d e r. ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w f o r c o m p le t e n e s s t u r n t o p a g e 2 3 1 .
Is t h a t th e e m a i l t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

A n d y o u a r e l i n k i n g t h a t to th e

s p r e a d s h e e t?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ex a c t ly th a t is w h a t I a m d o in g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h e n y o u r a n s w e r t o th e C h a ir i s t h a t
t h e s p r e a d s h e e t t h a t y o u a r e j u s t a b o u t t o d e a l w it h w a s a s a r e s u lt o f
t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t p a s s e d h a n d s b e tw e e n M r M p a m b a n i a n d M r
Sodi?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t S ir.

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CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t e m a i l a t 2 3 1 c o m e s fr o m E d w i n S o d i C h ie f

E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r a n d it is a d d r e s s e d t o S u r e E d d i e .

I h a v e a ff e c t e d

t h e p a y m e n t s i n tw o b a tc h e s k i n d ly fi n d a t t a c h e d t h e u p d a t e d s c h e d u le
with

the

f o l lo w in g

m in o r

a d ju s t m e n t s .

JT

from

R1

m i ll i o n

to

R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 o n 2 4 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a t 3 : 2 3 p m a n d t h e n th a t i s t h e e m a il
address.

Ye s s o t h a t is p a r t o f – th a t w e n t w i t h t h e s p r e a d s h e e t , is

t h a t r ig h t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Dukwana.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukwana did that go with the spreadsheet?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t it is f r o m – n o t fr o m E d w i n i t is fr o m I g o
t o E d w in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h r ig h t a t t h e t o p .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : R i g h t a t t h e t o p .
CHAIRPERSON: Not to Edwin.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : To E d w i n y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir j u s t t o c o r r e c t a l s o t o m a k e s u r e

t h a t w e a li g n y o u w i t h t h e ti m e s . S u r e i t i s n o t t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n
I a m s u r e i t is a g r e e ti n g w h e n it s a y s s u r e E d d i e .
20

S o i t is n o t

a d d r e s s e d to S u r e E d d i e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I – I h a d a s u s p ic i o n t h a t i t w a s a b o u t g r e e t in g
b u t I w a s n o t s u r e . O n e d o e s n o t s e e t h e s e t h in g s w r it t e n d o w n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e h e a r s t h e m b e in g s a id o n ly.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: So…

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H a v in g c la r if ie d th e i s s u e o f t h e s p r e a d
[i n t e r v e n t io n ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t 2 3 1 it i s a n e m a i l fr o m E d w i n S o d i a d d r e s s e d
t o E d d ie b u t M r M p a m b a n i is s e n d i n g s o m e t h i n g o r – to E d d i e , i s t h a t
r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

He is sending the spreadsheet but he was

d e m o n s t r a t in g h o w t h e y h a v e d e a l t w i th t h a t b u t c o r r e c t in g a l l t h e – t h e
amount.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Fo r d u ty fr o m R 1 m ill i o n t o R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. It is a li t t le c o n fu s i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t d o e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

But what – what appears to be the

r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n i n te r m s o f li n k i n g i t is it n o t t h e f ir s t li n e t h a t s a y s th a t
I h a v e a ffe c t e d t h e p a y m e n ts in t w o b e n c h e s b u t m o s t i m p o r t a n t ly
20

k in d ly a t t a c h e d th e u p d a t e d s c h e d u l e w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f o l lo w in g
adjustment.

S h o u ld o n e r e a d th e a d ju s t e d s c h e d u l e t o – a d j u s te d

s c h e d u l e t o b e t h e o n e t h a t y o u w il l b e d e a li n g w i t h ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : E x a c t ly i t i s th e o n e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w e w il l
b e d e a li n g w i th t h e s p r e a d s h e e t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w i f w e m a y r e fe r to p a g e 1 2 4 . If y o u

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c a n t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h e d i ff e r e n t c o l u m n s – b u t m a y b e b e fo r e y o u d o
t h a t Mr D u k w a n a b e c a u s e I h a v e j u s t a d j u s t e d c e r t a i n t h in g s i n m y
n o t e s . I f y o u c a n g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 6 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . I f y o u lo o k a t
t h e s p r e a d s h e e t c o m p a r in g t h e s p r e a d s h e e t w i th w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
t h e r e . In t h e s p r e a d s h e e t y o u w il l a g r e e w i t h m e th a t i t o n ly g iv e s t h e
in it i a ls o r th e a b b r e v i a te d n a m e s li k e t h o s e t h a t a r e a p p e a r in g t h e r e ,
am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H o w e v e r i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u t h e n p u t
10

t h e f u l l n a m e s o f w h a t y o u b e li e v e th o s e p e o p le t o b e , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y.

Bear in mind the 52.3.1 as we

p r o c e e d t h r o u g h t h a t – t h a t w il l b e M r X f o r t h e r e f e r e n c e s t h r o u g h o u t
t h is s p r e a d s h e e t , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w [i n te r v e n ti o n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e d i d y o u s a y th e s p r e a d s h e e t i s a g a i n ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: It is page 124.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I g o t i t . Ye s o k a y.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w le t u s g o b a c k t o t h e – p a g e 1 2 4

a n d ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h e d i ff e r e n t c o lu m n s a n d t h e p a y m e n ts t h a t c o u l d
h a v e b e e n e ffe c t e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e s p r e a d s h e e t is h e a d e d o r r e f e r r e d t o a s
T h e Fr e e S t a te A s b e s t o s E r a d ic a ti o n P r o j e c t . A n d i t h a s a n u m b e r o f
u n i ts . I t h a s r a t e p e r u n i t . I t h a s a p r o j e c t v a l u e a n d i t h a s t h e y e a r.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A n d th e n th e e x tr e m e r ig h t y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t t h e r e is a fir s t p a y m e n t ,
t h e s e c o n d p a y m e n t a n d t h e t h ir d p a y m e n t to b e e ff e c t e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And please tell us what – I mean

a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e w o u l d e a c h c o l u m n s ig n i f y t h a t w o u l d b e
q u i te i m p o r ta n t s o t h a t w e d o n o t lo s e y o u r e v i d e n c e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C a n I s u g g e s t th a t w e g o t h r o u g h t h i s a n d

then explain.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o t h a t …
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I f y o u c h e c k C h a ir p e r s o n th e – t h e n u m b e r o f
u n i ts th a t y o u w ill s e e th e r e i s 3 0 0 0 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w o n t h e e x t r e m e le f t c o l u m n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e b i g g e r c o l u m n . T h e r e is …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Bi g g e r – t h e e x t r e m e l e f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e le f t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e i s 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i ts .

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s a y s n u m b e r o f u n i ts a n d th e n th e n u m b e r 3 0 0 0 0 0
appears.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e n i t th e n s a y s t h e r a t e p e r u n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e x t c o lu m n is t h e …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d i n t h is c a s e i t i s R 8 5 0 . 0 0

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n e x t c o lu m n it s a y s r a t e p e r u n i t a n d i t s a y s

R 8 5 0 .0 0 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d th e n w h e n y o u m u l ti p l y th a t i t g i v e s y o u
R 2 5 5 m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y h a n g o n l e t u s n o t s p e a k a t th e s a m e ti m e M r

Dukwana.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e n e x t c o lu m n h a s g o t
r a te p e r u n it a n d it h a s g o t R 8 5 0 .0 0 , i s t h a t r i g h t?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s r i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e n y o u m o v e t o th e n e x t c o lu m n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e p r o je c t v a l u e . T h a t is t h e t o ta l a m o u n t

o f t h e p r o je c t . T h e F r e e S t a te A s b e s t o s E r a d ic a ti o n P r o j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll y o u h a v e t o r e a d i t a s i t is .

Th e t o t a l p r o j e c t

v a l u e r e f l e c te d o n t h e t h i r d c o lu m n is R 2 5 5 m il li o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ex a c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u w a n t to m a k e a n o b s e r v a t io n a b o u t t h a t
amount.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e R 2 5 5 m i ll io n i s t h e s a m e a m o u n t th a t w a s
20

r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e – in t h e le t t e r – t h e in s tr u c ti o n f r o m t h e H O D .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u – s o y o u s a y i f w e g o b a c k t o th e l e t t e r o f

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m t h e H e a d o f t h e H O D w h i c h w a s a t p a g e 9 4 i f I r e c a ll
c o r r e c t ly th e to t a l v a lu e o f t h e A s b e s to s P r o j e c t w a s R 2 5 5 m i ll io n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And I see 300 000 where it says number of

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
u n i ts . T h a t l e t t e r a ls o i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e h o u s i n g u n i ts w h i c h w e r e t o b e
t h e s u b j e c t o f t h a t p r o j e c t w a s 3 0 0 0 0 0 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e w a s – w a s t h e r e n o t a l s o s o m e t h in g a b o u t
the amount per unit?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t w a s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t t h e s a m e a s R 8 5 0 . 0 0 t h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is R 8 5 0 . 0 0 C h a ir p e r s o n y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o fr o m t h i s y o u c o n c lu d e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is is t h e p r o j e c t th a t w e r e f e r r e d to a s t h e
H e is t t h a t w a s t h e – w h a t c o m e s fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f t h e – i n t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t i n th e P r o v i n c e a n d t h e n l e t u s – t h a t
p o i n t e d o u t t h a t t h e t o ta l v a l u e o f t h e p r o je c t is R 2 5 5 m i ll io n a n d t h a t
e a c h h o u s e w o u l d b e t h e c o s t f o r t h a t w o u l d b e R 8 5 0 . 0 0 a n d t h e n th e y
w i ll d o t h e a u d i t fo r 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s .

S o t h a t t e lls y o u t h a t i t is n o t

s e p a r a t e d , i t li n k s v e r y w e ll w i t h w h a t w e a r e e x p l a i n i n g h e r e n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e s u g g e s ti n g y o u m a k e i s t h a t th e p a y m e n ts t h a t
20

you are about to read in the spreadsheet are connected to the project
o f t h e E r a d ic a ti o n o f As b e s t o s , t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Mr M o k o e n a .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I h a d in d ic a t e d th a t h a v i n g d i s c u s s io n s w it h
t h e l a te Ig o M p a m b a n i e x p l a i n i n g t o m e i n d e t a il i t w a s a l o n g

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
d is c u s s io n t h a t w e h a d a n d i t d i d n o t h a p p e n o n c e i t h a p p e n e d s e v e r a l
ti m e s .

H e – h e u s e d c e r t a i n n a m e s a n d t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d in t h e

project and he – he referred to them when I was asking – are you not
g o i n g t o b e d is a p p o i n t e d t h e w a y y o u w e r e w it h t h e – i n t h e o t h e r
p r o j e c t t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o u n d e r t a k e i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e ? A n d t h e n h e
s a i d w e a r e s o r t e d o u t . W e h a v e d e a l t w i t h e v e r y t h i n g th is t i m e t h a t w e
h a v e b r o u g h t e v e r y b o d y w h o m a t t e r s , w h o w o u l d f a c ili t a t e t h e p r o c e s s
s o t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m o r t h e r e is n o t h i n g t h a t o n e s h o u l d b e a fr a i d o f .
A n d b u t o f c o u r s e a s h e w o u ld m e n ti o n p e o p l e t h a t t h e y a r e w o r k i n g
10

w i t h t h is o n e , t h is o n e h e w a s u s in g t h e s e a n d I w o u l d a s k w h o is th is
o n e a n d h e w o u ld t e l l m e t h e n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e u s in g i n i t ia ls ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H e w a s u s i n g in i ti a l s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e u s in g a n ic k n a m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H e w a s u s i n g in i ti a l s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n i t ia ls .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d th e n h e w o u l d s a y t h e – a n d I w o u ld a s k
s p e c i f ic a l ly w h o i s t h is o n e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d a t t h e t i m e I w a s n o t a s k i n g b e c a u s e I
wanted to prepare or there was any commission I was asking because I
ju s t w a n t e d t o k n o w w h o a r e t h e s e p e o p l e t h a t y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s a n d t h e n h e w o u l d g i v e th is t o m e a n d

t h e n th a t is it . B u t h e o n ly g a v e m e n a m e s o f p e o p l e th a t h e th o u g h t
were

more

relevant

to

be

m e n ti o n e d

to

me.

Others

did

not

[i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t a s k ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

And others he did not give.

As he was

s p e a k i n g h e w o u l d te ll m e t h is p e r s o n a n d th e n h e w o u l d te ll m e t h is
10

person.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o h e d i d n o t t e ll m e a ll t h e o t h e r p e o p le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t a r e h e r e i n th e s p r e a d s h e e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d id y o u a s k h i m t o t e l l y o u w h o c e r t a i n p e o p l e

w e r e a n d n o t a l l o f th e m o r d i d y o u a s k a l l o f t h e m b u t h e g a v e y o u
some and not gave you others or …?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : L e t m e m a k e a n e x a m p le . W h e n h e s a i d t h e
- t h e p r o je c t i n f a c t is f u n d e d - h e s a id t h e p r o j e c t w a s f u n d e d fr o m
20

n a t io n a l . T h e p r o v i n c e is n o t p a y in g y o u k n o w. T h e tr a n s f e r w o u l d b e
m a d e fr o m n a t i o n a l t o t h e p r o v in c e a n d h e i n d ic a te d t h a t w e h a v e s o
a n d s o M r X w h o i s fa c i li t a t i n g t h i s fo r u s a n d t h e n h e th e n s a i d i n th e
p r o v i n c e a n d t h e n h e w a s jo k i n g ly s a y i n g y o u k n o w y o u c a n n o t d o
a n y th in g w it h o u t t h e b i g m a n a n d th e n - t h e n h e w o u ld r e f e r t o t h e b i g
m a n a s i n i n i t ia ls a n d w o u l d a s k w h y d o y o u s a y th is .

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H e s a y h e y y o u d o n o t ta lk a b o u t t h is n a m e a n y w a y.

So it

w a s h is w a y o f h id i n g w h o - w h e n e v e r h e s p e a k s h e w o u ld s p e a k in - i n
t h a t a n d th e n I b e c a m e in t e r e s t e d i n f in d i n g o u t w h y h e is u s in g t h a t.
T h a t i s w h y h e e x p la in e d a n d t h e n h e w o u ld e v e n g iv e t h e r e a s o n s w h y
t h e y - t h e y b r o u g h t a ll t h e s e p e o p le t o g e t h e r b u t h e d i d n o t s a y t o m e
t h a t th e y w e r e p a y in g th e m o r d o i n g t h a t .
W e w e r e d is c u s s i n g a n d h e w a s j u s t s i m p ly s a y i n g h e h a s
m a n a g e d t o b r i n g th e m t o u n d e r s t a n d a n d a c c e p t a n d h e l p f a c i li t a te t h e
project.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o a t t h is s t a g e i n y o u r d i s c u s s i o n h e w a s n o t
s a y in g t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e p a y i n g t h e m . H e w a s s i m p ly s a y i n g th e y
s u p p o r t t h e p r o j e c t . Th e y a r e o n b o a r d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

H e ju s t s a i d w e - w e m a d e s u r e t h is

ti m e t h a t w e ti e e v e r y b o d y t h a t m a t t e r s t o t h is f o r e a s e o f - o f o u r
p r o j e c t g o in g th r o u g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o h e d id n o t m e n ti o n t h a t th e y w e r e g o in g

t o p a y th e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

H e g a v e m e th a t i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e y

w o r k i n g q u it e w e ll . T h e y m a n a g e d t o e n g a g e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th e s e p e o p l e a n d t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e o n th e ir
s id e a n d t h e y u n d e r s t o o d e x a c t ly w h e r e th e y w e r e g o i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d h e g a v e m e t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t b e c a u s e
it w a s m o n e y n o t c o m i n g fr o m th e p r o v i n c e b u t b e c a u s e y o u n e e d e d th e
p r o v i n c e t o a c c e p t a n d d o th is a n d a p p o i n t y o u . Yo u h a d - h e h a d t o
m a k e s u r e t h a t h e - h e g e ts t h e s e p e o p le to - to a c c e p t a n d w o r k w i th
h i m a n d o n c e h e h a d th a t h e w a s e x c i t e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Te l li n g m e t h a t r e a ll y t h is t i m e w e a r e

moving and then Mochana (?) if you can - he would refer to me as
Mochana.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I f y o u c a n f a c ili t a te th e - t h e o t h e r p r o v in c e s
s p e c i f ic a l ly h e m e n ti o n e d t h e E a s t e r n C a p e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d I t h i n k b e c a u s e m y p a r e n ts o r i g in a t e

fr o m t h e E a s t e r n C a p e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d w e - w e w il l ta lk X h o s a y o u k n o w …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : To w h ic h o t h e r e v e r y t i m e y o u k n o w …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W e r e n o t s p e a k in g a n y o th e r l a n g u a g e o t h e r
t h a n th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C a n y o u n o w p r o c e e d w it h r e f e r e n c e to

p a g e 1 2 1 a s I h a v e r e q u e s t e d y o u t o d o b e f o r e a n d t e ll u s w h a t d o e s

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
e a c h c o lu m n r e p r e s e n t a n d w h a t is r e f l e c te d i n t h o s e c o l u m n s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

If y o u c h e c k C h a ir p e r s o n i t s a y s t h e r e “ T h e

C o s t o f B u s in e s s ” a n d i t i s i n o n e c o l u m n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d w h e n i t s a y s t h e c o s t o f b u s i n e s s w h ic h
is s ti p u l a te d t h e r e a n d t h e t o t a l c o s t o f b u s i n e s s b e i n g R 8 2 6 0 8 5 6 7 .
T h a t w a s t h e t o t a l v a lu e o f w h a t h e r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e t o t a l c o s t o f
business.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o t h e - t h e v a r i o u s p a y m e n ts o r i t e m s a r e p a r t
10

of the - of what he regards as cost of business?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n t h e t o t a l is t h e o n e y o u h a v e ju s t

m e n ti o n e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t is lik e l y i t w a s th e c o s t t o h is b u s i n e s s - t o th e ir
business?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : To …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o t h i s p r o je c t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t is - th is - th is is w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e

a s b e s to s p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e n …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
Mr Dukwana.

W e - w e d o n o t n e e d to s p e c u la t e

L o o k r ig h t o n to p o f t h a t d o c u m e n t .

What - what is

w r i t t e n t h e r e ? W h a t is th e h e a d i n g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Fr e e S t a t e A s b e s t o s E r a d i c a t io n P r o je c t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t is h e lp f u l M r M o k o e n a . I a ls o d i d n o t p i c k

that up.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o c le a r ly h e i s s p e c if ic a l ly r e f e r r i n g to
10

t h e i s s u e s t h a t y o u h a v e c a n v a s s e d w it h t h e C h a ir p e r t a i n i n g t o t h is
project. Am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o w h e n h e t a lk s a b o u t t h e c o s t o f

b u s i n e s s i t is w i th r e f e r e n c e t o w h a t w e s e e a s th e h e a d i n g o n t o p .
Would I be correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u w il l b e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Then proceed then.
C H A I R P E R S O N : E ff e c tiv e ly i t w a s - i t i s - i t i s w h a t t h e b u s i n e s s h a s
h a d to p a y in r e g a r d to o r h is c o m p a n y h a s h a d to p a y in r e g a r d to th is
20

b u s i n e s s t h a t t h e y g o t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t t le m e n ts i n
r e g a r d t o t h e a s b e s t o s e r a d ic a t i o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t u l ti m a t e ly i t m e a n s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t m e a n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . G r e a s in g i f y o u lik e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e s a y in g w h a t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : G r e a s i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G r e a s in g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h a t is t h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh greasing your hand.
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Greasing your hand.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

( A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ) . Yo u p a y b r i b e r y i f y o u

lik e . Yo u p a y - y o u b r i b e s o m e b o d y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O r y o u p a y t h e m f o r t h e m t o f a c i li t a t e t h i s fo r
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : s o t h i s c o s t o f b u s i n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : G o o d E n g li s h …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H i d i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Br ib e r y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Br ib e r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is - i t i s a b r i b e .

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is a b r ib e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll in is i Zu l u w e h a v e g o t th e w o r d ( is i Z u l u

la n g u a g e ) t o r e f e r t o t h a t a s w e l l .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o th o w o r d ( S o t h o la n g u a g e ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . C o n t i n u e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d t h e n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Mr X - in the cost of business Mr X was

s c h e d u l e d to g e t 1 0 m i ll io n a n d t h e n T M fi v e m i ll i o n . I w ill c o m e t o t h e
o th e r n a m e s .

A M 1 0 m il li o n .

O M o n e mi ll io n .

M E C 2 . 5 m i ll io n .

M a s t e r Tr a d e 4 4 2 0 8 5 6 7 , 9 0 9 a n d o t h e r s t w o m i ll i o n a n d t h e n y o u h a v e
o th e r n a m e s M a r ti n 1 .5 , S t e v e 1 . 2 , R a n d w a ( ? ) 1 . 2 m il li o n , J T t h r e e
m il li o n , D e i d r i c k s o n e m il li o n a n d t h e n i t g iv e s y o u t h a t t o t a l t h a t i s
there. That is the cost …
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e p e a t t h e t o ta l .

Yo u s a i d i t e a r l i e r b u t ju s t

r e p e a t fo r c o n v e n i e n c e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e t o t a l c o s t o f b u s i n e s s is 8 2 6 0 8 5 6 7 ,9 0 .
O h w a it . Yo u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 82 608 567,90.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s , 9 0 c e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: May I …?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e n y o u h a v e a ls o t h e p r o j e c t v a l u e

c o s t o f b u s in e s s …

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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t w i ll b e 1 7 2 3 9 1 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 7 2 m il li o n . Is i t n o t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 1 7 2 m ill i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t - t h a t l o o k s li k e 1 7 2 m il li o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s it is C h a ir.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you said 172 000.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I s a id R 1 7 2 …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 3 9 1 4 3 2 , 1 0 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f y o u c h e c k t h e - t h e p r o j e c t v a lu e c o s t o f

b u s i n e s s d i v i d e d b e t w e e n t h e t w o B la c k h e a d a n d D i a m o n d i n e q u a l
p o r t i o n w il l b e R 8 6 1 9 5 7 1 6 , 0 5 a n d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t is w r i tt e n
2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 fi n a n c i a l y e a r t h a t w il l b e 1 2 7 5 0 0 0 0 0 a n d t h e n 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5
fi n a n c i a l y e a r 1 2 7 5 0 0 0 0 0 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h i s is h o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e d i ff e r e n t a m o u n ts w e r e e x p a n d e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ex a c t ly.

Th is is h o w t h e s e a m o u n t w e r e -

w e r e e x p a n d e d a n d t h e n t h e - t h e - M r X w a s - t h e n a m e w a s g iv e n
b e c a u s e i t w a s i n a w a y o f t e l li n g m e w h o is f a c ili t a ti n g t h is a t th e h e a d
o r a t th e h e a d o ffic e a n d - a n d t h is a m o u n t w i ll g o to 1 0 m il li o n f o r
Mr X.

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CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e i n it i a l t h a t is g iv e n h e r e w h ic h y o u a r e n o t

m e n ti o n i n g . Th e i n i ti a ls t h a t a r e g iv e n h e r e a r e t h e i n it i a ls th a t h e t o l d
you.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H e w a s u s i n g t h e m . E v e r y t i m e h e r e f e r r e d
to the person. He would use
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : U s e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Tw ic e i n o u r m e e ti n g h e u s e d th a t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d - a n d th e n t h e r e i s a ls o T M in t h i s c a s e .
T h e m a n y p e o p le …
CHAIRPERSON: I am - I am sorry Mr Dukwana. Mr Mokoena I am - I
a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e s e o t h e r a m o u n ts r e l a te t o . Ar e - a r e
t h e y p a r t - t h e o n e s th a t h e is s t a r ti n g t o r e a d n o w. A r e t h e y p a r t o f
e x a m p l e in r e g a r d t o M r X a r e t h e y - a r e t h e y p a r t o f th e 1 0 m i ll io n ? Is
fi v e m i ll io n p a r t o f t h e 1 0 m il li o n o r is i t a n a d d i t io n a l fi v e m i ll io n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r D u k w a n a i f y o u l o o k a t th a t c o l u m n …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t …

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u w i ll s e e th a t t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t

columns.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : J a . Yo u s e e t h e l e f t o n e C h a i r i t e x p l a i n s t h e
total amount to be paid …
C H A I R P E R S O N : G i v e n to a p a r t ic u l a r i n d i v id u a l ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . T h a t w il l b e t h e t o t a l a m o u n t …

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : To b e p a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e n i t w il l b e i n t e r m s o f t h e y e a r.

If

y o u c h e c k in te r ms o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r a s h e i n d ic a te d th e r e a t t h e
b o t t o m . T h i s h a l f o f i t, i t is 1 2 7 5 0 0 0 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d h a l f 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5

fi n a n c i a l y e a r h e s a y s 1 2 7 5 0 0 0 0 0 . H e - h e b r o k e it i n - i n h a l f b u t it
10

is t h e to t a l a m o u n t o f 2 5 5 m i ll io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d th e n i f y o u c h e c k t h e - t h e - i f y o u g o t o
y o u r r i g h t h e t h e n b r e a k s i t d o w n i n y e a r s . Th a t f o r t h is f in a n c i a l y e a r
t h e y w i ll p a y t h is a m o u n t o f m o n e y a n d th e n i t w i ll th e n b e b r o k e n d o w n
in t h a t fa s h i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ; a n d - a n d th e a m o u n ts th a t - t h a t a p p e a r

b e t w e e n t h e t w o c o lu m n s th a t t h e r e is t w o - R 2 m il li o n i n r e l a ti o n t o - i n
r e l a ti o n t o Mr X a n d th e r e is R 3 m il li o n . W h a t d o t h e y r e p r e s e n t th o s e
t h a t a p p e a r b e t w e e n t h e t w o c o l u m n s w h ic h s e e m t o b e h a n g i n g ?
20

you know what I mean.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C h a ir - C h a ir b e f o r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: B e f o r e M r D u k w a n a a n s w e r s th a t q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: M a y I p l e a d t h a t …

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If

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

P e r h a p s i t w i ll b e p r u d e n t n o t t o g o to t h e

n i t ty - g r i tt i e s o f t h e - o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

T h e r e a s o n i s t h e w it n e s s is n o t s c h o o le d i n

a c c o u n t in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: S o h e m a y n o t e x p l a i n c e r t a in t h in g s w i th t h e t h e r e q u is i te k n o w l e d g e t h a t i t m a y b e e x p e c t e d o u t o f a p e r s o n w h o
10

w i ll a n a ly s e th e s p r e a d s h e e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o I …
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

A n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d n o t e t h a t i f y o u

lo o k a t p a g e 9 4 t h e f ir s t a m o u n t th e r e p a y a b l e is 5 1 m i ll io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: A n d t h e n it is r e fl e c t e d t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

O t h e r a m o u n ts p a r ti c u la r ly th e o n e s t h a t a r e

n o t in s i d e t h e c o l u m n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
20

A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

I d o u b t M r D u k w a n a is i n a p o s i t io n o f

e x p l a i n in g w i t h p r e c is io n w h a t t h o s e a m o u n ts a r e a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t c o m p l e te ly. I th i n k h e
- h e s h o u l d j u s t b e a b l e to s a y t h i s is w h a t I a m a b l e t o e x p la i n .
O t h e r w is e o t h e r t h i n g s I a m n o t a b l e e x p l a i n .
document.

A f t e r a l l i t is n o t h i s

S o it w a s ju s t to tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e a r e - w e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
u n d e r s t a n d t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t in t h e s a m e w a y h e d o e s .
S o Mr D u k w a n a w h e r e y o u - w h a t y o u c a n n o t e x p l a i n j u s t s a y
I - I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h is r e p r e s e n ts . A s I s a y i t i s n o t y o u r d o c u m e n t
in a n y e ff e c t .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . I w i ll d o . T h e - i f y o u c h e c k t h is - t h is
fir s t p o r ti o n t h a t is b i g w a s f o r t h e t o t a l a m o u n t o f m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t th e y h a v e e a r m a r k e d a n d h o w t h e y

w o u ld C h a ir s h a r e i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i f y o u g o t o t h e e x tr e m e r i g h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t w a s w i t h t h e p a y m e n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e a s
t h e y w e r e c o m in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : As y o u w o u l d - a s y o u w o u l d s e e th a t t h e r e
w a s a p a y m e n t t h a t w a s m a d e i n D e c e m b e r. T h e r e w e r e t w o p a y m e n ts
20

t h a t w e r e m a d e . T h e o n e w a s 2 0 m il li o n f o ll o w e d b y t h e 3 1 m i lli o n i n
D e c e m b e r a n d t h i s w o u l d b e y o u r 5 1 m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th a t w a s t h e r e . S o o n e a s s u m e s t h a t e v e r y
ti m e t h e r e w a s p a y m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e c o s t t o b u s i n e s s w o u l d t h e n b e p a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y, o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e y w o u l d b e p a id t h e s e a m o u n ts t h a t

a r e - a r e s h o w n th e r e b u t a s y o u p a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t w a s g o in g t o g o t o t h e t o ta l t h a t e a c h

person …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W o u l d a t th e e n d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W o u l d h a v e r e c e iv e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

B u t i n th is c a s e i t - it is n o t li k e 1 0 m ill i o n

a n d th e n y o u g e tt i n g t h e 1 0 m i ll io n j u s t lik e t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In o n e p a y m e n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e fi r s t p a y m e n t i s - is 2 0 m i ll io n th a t w e

get.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e n w e g i v e y o u t h e a m o u n t t h a t …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e n w e w ill g iv e y o u o n e m il li o n g i v e

y o u t h is a n d i t w a s m e a n t fo r t h a t . S o th e s e c o n d p a y m e n t is m a d e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

And the people who - who would have

r e c e i v e d w o u l d b e - w o u l d b e s h o w n t h a t t h is p e r s o n g o t t h i s a m o u n t o f

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n y o th e r t h i n g t h a t y o u w i s h to e x p l a i n
t o t h e C h a ir in r e l a ti o n to t h e s p r e a d s h e e t o n p a g e 1 2 - 1 2 4 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

O n - I j u s t w a n t t o s a y C h a ir p e r s o n t h e

n a m e s h e r e a s I e x p l a in e d w h y I a m - I a m c o n f id e n t t h a t t h e y r e f e r to
t h e s e p e o p l e th a t a r e h e r e i n c l u d i n g M r X i s w h a t I e x p l a i n e d to y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i t w a s a d i s c u s s i o n t h a t w e h a d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d I s ti ll m e t w it h o n e p e r s o n w h o w a s a

p a r t n e r a t s o m e s t a g e Ta ta M o g w e r a ( ? ) …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I n - i n t h e p r o v in c e a n d t h e n u n fo r t u n a t e l y

Mr Mpambani passed on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o w e - w e h a d t h e s e k i n d s o f e n g a g e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

S o th is w o u ld b e m u c h c l e a r e r i n t e r m s o f

the names …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

B u t i f y o u c h e c k t h e r e a n d t h a t e m a il t h a t -

that was the supplementary evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t w a s s a id e v e r y t h i n g is s o r t e d o u t w i t h

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e a d j u s t m e n t fr o m o n e m i ll io n f o r J T t o 5 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M e a n i n g th a t e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s p a id fo r

t h a t d u r a t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t - a n d i f y o u c h e c k t h a t w a s fo r w i th t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n i t w a s t h e t h ir d p a y m e n t th a t w a s m a d e . I n t h i s c a s e i t w a s
500 000 instead of what was - was done - was paid.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H u h - u h .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u t u r n to p a g e 1 6 o f y o u r w i t n e s s

s t a te m e n t a n d in l in e w i th w h a t y o u r e f e r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 5 2 . 3 . Fr o m
5 2 . 3 .1 o n w a r d s y o u g i v e t h e s p e c i fi c n a m e s w h ic h y o u s a y th a t t h o s e
a b b r e v ia t e d n a m e s a c t u a ll y r e p r e s e n ts . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d y o u s a y t h a t t h is y o u a r e a b l e t o

s t a te w i t h c e r t a in t y fl o w i n g fr o m y o u r o w n d is c u s s i o n s w i th t h e s o u r c e
of the information.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . H e - w h e n - b e c a u s e I - I k n e w c e r t a in
p e o p l e b y th e i r s u r n a m e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o w h e n h e s a i d T M to m e I w a n te d to k n o w
b u t w h o is th is T M .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W h y a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o t h is p e r s o n a s T M

…

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d h e t h e n s a i d i t is T h a b o M o k h e s i .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d I w a n t e d to k n o w w h o i s T h a b o M o k h e s i
b e c a u s e I - I k n o w M r M o k h e s i. T h e H O D o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n
S e t tl e m e n t in th e F r e e S t a t e a n d h e s a i d t h a t is w h a t t h e y k n o w h i m t o
b e a s T M a n d h e s a y s w h y - a n d I w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t is T. H e s a y s I
f o u n d h i m . T h e y c a ll h i m T h a b o e t c e t e r a . H e s a y s i t i s T h a b o M o k h e s i .
T h e H O D in t h e - i n t h e F r e e S t a t e - t h e H u m a n S e tt l e m e n t i n
10

t h e F r e e S t a te r e f e r r e d to a s T h a b o - T h a b o M o k h e s i . H e i s r e f e r r e d to
a s T M i n t h is c a s e . T h a t is w h a t h e s a id a n d t h e n A M …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e f o r e y o u g o I t h in k s o th a t o n e c a n u n d e r s t a n d
it c o r r e c t ly. N o w t h a t y o u a r e m e n ti o n i n g w h o is w h o t h e n I th i n k y o u
m u s t j u s t r e p e a t in t e r m s o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e t w h a t it s h o w s w a s p a id t o
who.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y b e w h a t w o u l d a s s is t is i f y o u c a n

open page 124.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, page - in other words as you explained who

c e r t a i n i n i t ia ls r e fe r t o . Yo u g o to 1 2 4 a n d j u s t m e n ti o n t h a t …
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H o w m u c h w a s h e p a id .
CHAIRPERSON: That amount is what that person got.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C h a ir c a n it b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C a n i t b e - h e c a n m e n ti o n t h a t m i n u s Mr X ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o f c o u r s e . O f c o u r s e .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: R i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no he - I took it that we all know that …
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr X r e m a i n s Mr X .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . N o , n o .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

B u t h e c a n s t a te h o w m u c h M r X h a v e - w a s

paid.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . H e - h e - I t h i n k h e h a s s t a te d - h e c a n s a y h o w
10

much Mr X got
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

C h a i r t h e o t h e r th in g m a y M r D u k w a n a n o t

m e n ti o n t h e d e ta il s p e r t a i n i n g t o M r X i n th e s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld - t h a t w o u ld g iv e a c lu e ?
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: I t w il l g iv e a c lu e . S o w h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

W it h i n l i n e w i t h t h e i n c li n a t i o n o f t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s te r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

H e s h o u l d n o t e v e n m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o w h e r e

M r X c o u l d p o s s i b ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: B e l o c a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o , n o I t h i n k - I th in k t h a t w a s t h e

u n d e r s t a n d in g y e s t e r d a y.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

Ye s .

S i n c e C h a ir h e h a s a l r e a d y m e n ti o n e d

h o w m u c h M r X a ll e g e d ly r e c e i v e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ac c o r d in g t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e t.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

W h ic h is t h e e m a il e x c h a n g e s b e t w e e n t w o

persons.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

W h o a r e - w h o w e r e d ir e c t o r s o f t h e s e t w o

companies.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

B l a c k h e a d a n d D ia m o n d H i ll .

Th e n w e m o v e

to TM.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s - le t u s l e a v e o u t …
20

A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h e r e h e c a n e x p l a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr X , ja . T h a t is fi n e .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C a n I q u ic k ly p o in t o u t C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t t h e t h e a m o u n t s th a t y o u s e e t h e r e a r e t h e a m o u n t s e a r m a r k e d - th e c o s t

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f o r t o ta l b u s in e s s b u t a s y o u p a y - a s h e g o t p a id h e w i ll p a y a c e r ta i n
a m o u n t o f m o n e y. S o th e - th e 1 0 m i ll io n w a s n o t p a id lik e th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n t e r m o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

It - i t - t h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l - t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n

s e v e r a l p a y m e n ts …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h to t a l l e d 1 0 m i ll io n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o e v e r y t i m e h e r e c e iv e d p a y m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H e w o u ld e ffe c t t h is p a y m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A t t h e e n d o f i t a l l …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O n e b e l i e v e s t h a t a f te r e v e r y t h i n g w a s d o n e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e s e p e o p l e w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d t h i s

amount.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t o ta l a m o u n ts g iv e n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o y o u m a y p r o c e e d th e n f r o m T M .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T M w a s - w a s ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u a r e s t ill e x p l a i n in g h o w - h o w y o u

knew (intervenes).
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I explained that as - as the head of the

d e p a r t m e n t in t h e Fr e e S t a t e o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t w a s e a r m a r k e d t o
r e c e i v e f iv e m i ll i o n a n d a ft e r t h e f ir s t p a y m e n t th a t w a s r e c e iv e d t h e
p e r s o n g o t o n e m i lli o n a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e h e g o t o n e m il li o n a n d t h e
t h ir d o n e h e g o t 5 0 0 0 0 0 .

S o in to t a l a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e t -

t h e s p r e a d s h e e t h e g o t 2 . 5 m il li o n . I n t h r e e b a tc h e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A r e y o u s t il l w i t h T M o r a r e y o u d e a li n g
with somebody else now?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I a m d e a li n g w i t h T M .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I n t o t a l h e g o t f iv e m ill i o n y o u s a y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n t o t a l h e is s u p p o s e d t o g e t fi v e m i ll io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h a t w a s - a r e t h o s e a m o u n t s - a m o u n ts t h a t h e

w a s - t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g e t a n d th e n y o u b r e a k th e m d o w n i n th e
o th e r c o l u m n s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J u s t c o n t in u e .
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f y o u c h e c k y o u - y o u w il l s e e t h a t f o r

in s t a n c e t h e - th e - Mr X w a s s u p p o s e d to g e t 1 0 m i ll io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th e n i f y o u c h e c k in t h e c o l u m n t h e r e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
h o w m u c h w a s p a id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d i t w i ll a d d t h is s i d e . I t is t h r e e m i lli o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , n o n o w I …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I f y o u c h e c k th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Now I …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I - I h o p e y o u u n d e r s t a n d n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o n o w I t h i n k I u n d e r s t a n d . I t h in k y o u - y o u - m a y b e
b a s e d o n t h e e m a i l t h a t w e n t w i t h th i s s p r e a d s h e e t I m a y h a v e
10

c o n fu s e d . I - I th o u g h t th a t i t - th e s p r e a d s h e e t r e p r e s e n t e d a m o u n ts
t h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n p a id a n d t h a t w h e r e i t s a y s 1 0 m i ll io n it w o u l d
ju s t s h o w t h e t o ta l a n d w h a t is s h o w n i n o th e r c o l u m n s w o u l d b e h o w
t h a t 1 0 m ill i o n w a s m a d e u p o f - b u t i n r e s p e c t o f a m o u n ts th a t h a d
a lr e a d y b e e n p a i d b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s t h e 1 0 m il li o n o r f iv e
m il li o n w o u l d b e w h a t th e p e r s o n w a s s u p p o s e d t o g e t a t t h e e n d o f th e
w h o le p r o j e c t .
I g u e s s a n d th e n th e o t h e r c o l u m n s r e fl e c t e d w h a t h a d b e e n
p a i d a s a t t h e ti m e w h e n th is s p r e a d s h e e t w a s p r e p a r e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in r e g a r d t o T M …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n r e g a r d t o T M …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e t o t a l a m o u n t r e c e i v e d i n t h is c a s e i f y o u
c h e c k th e fir s t p a y m e n t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e t h a t a n d i t is c l e a r t h a t a s
y o u l o o k a t th a t th a t h e d id n o t g e t t h e t o t a l a m o u n t a s i t w a s a l lu d e d t o

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b u t s o f a r fr o m t h is s p r e a d s h e e t a n d fr o m t h e c o lu m n t h a t is t h e r e t h i s
is t h e a m o u n t th a t h e r e c e iv e d h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 . 5 m il li o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 2 . 5 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O u t o f t h e 1 0 m il li o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O u t o f f iv e - 5 0 0 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O u t o f t h e f iv e m il li o n h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o g e t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O u t o f t h e f iv e m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o h e g o t a b o u t - h e h a d r e c e iv e d a b o u t - h e
10

h a d r e c e i v e h a l f o f w h a t h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o r e c e iv e a t t h e e n d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Dukwana …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I - I am not sure. I see that 2.5 but next
t o 2 . 5 t h e r e is a n a m o u n t o n t h e r ig h t h a n d s i d e th a t s a y s o n e m il li o n .
What does that represent?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is i f y o u c h e c k t h e r e …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: (Intervenes).

20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e r e w a s a ls o a p a y m e n t o f 5 1 m i ll i o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u s e e t h a t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e r e w a s a p a y m e n t m e a n i n g th e y g o t t h e

t w o a n d t h i s t o t a l is fi v e m i ll io n - it is 5 1 m il li o n .

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I f y o u c h e c k th a t

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s p r e a d s h e e t y o u h a v e t h is f ir s t p a y m e n t a n d t h e s e c o n d p a y m e n t a n d
t h e n i t g o e s t h e r e a s 5 1 m i ll io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , b u t …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o T M …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: (Intervenes).
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W h a t I a m tr y i n g to s h o w y o u is t h a t is th e

o n e m il li o n p a i d …
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e n th e r e i s 1 .5 m i ll io n p a id .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 2 .5 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e r e is 1 .5 a n d t h e n i f y o u - y o u b r e a k i t

d o w n i t i s o n e m i ll io n , o n e m il li o n , o n e m i ll io n , 5 0 0 0 0 0 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Oh I see.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I - I am …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I am not sure if I understand.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A m I l o s in g y o u ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I th o u g h t …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o , n o .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d to th e C h a ir t h a t

c o l u m n th a t s a y s 2 . 5 o n t h e - o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e . Yo u s e e o n t o p i t
says year one. Can you see?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t s a y s y e a r o n e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And then but what confuses me I see - I
s e e 2 .5 b u t t h e r e i s a - a n a m o u n t o f o n e m il li o n w h ic h I a m n o t - I a m
not sure what does it represent.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I i n d ic a te d i f y o u - if y o u c h e c k t h a t - i f y o u
c h e c k t h e s p r e a d s h e e t M r M p a m b a n i w a s v e r y m e t ic u l o u s i n w o r k i n g
these things.

H e w o u ld g e t a l l t h e d e ta il s a n d I h o p e y o u w ill n o t b e

c o n fu s e d b y t h is . Th e f ir s t p a y m e n t , th e s e c o n d p a y m e n t a n d t h e t h ir d
payment.
10

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Dukwana. Maybe because Mr Mokoena
a n d I s e e m t o h a v e a s i m il a r p r o b le m . M a y b e i f I e x p la in i t - t h e …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c h e c k w i th y o u w h e th e r …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I u n d e r s ta n d i t c o r r e c t ly.

It might help.

I s - is t h e

p o s i ti o n t h e f o ll o w i n g t h a t - I h o p e I w il l n o t g o i n g - I a m g o i n g t o c a u s e
more confusion.

I s t h e p o s i t io n th a t th e b i g c o l u m n o n th e l e f t w h i c h

h a s g o t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 - 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i ts a n d 2 5 0 - 2 5 5 m i ll io n t h a t w h e n
y o u lo o k a t t h a t b i g c o lu m n w h ic h h a s g o t it s o w n c o l u m n s t h e a m o u n ts
20

o f 1 0 m il li o n , fiv e m ill i o n , 1 0 m i ll io n a n d s o o n a n d s o o n t h a t is w h a t
e a c h p e r s o n m e n ti o n e d t h e r e w a s s u p p o s e d to g e t w h e n th e w h o l e
p r o j e c t w a s f in is h e d . A m I c o r r e c t s o fa r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h e n y o u g o to t h e n e x t c o lu m n . I t s a y s 2 5 5
m il li o n . T h a t i s t h e v a l u e o f t h e w h o l e p r o je c t . Th e n t h e c o l u m n o n th e

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r ig h t h a n d s id e o f th a t c o l u m n w h i c h h a s g o t fi v e m il li o n a t t h e t o p . 2 . 5
m il li o n b e l o w t h a t a n d s o o n a n d th e n i t h a s g o t t w o m i ll io n n e x t t o fiv e
m il li o n .

T h a t w a s a n a ll o c a ti o n f o r e a c h p e r s o n .

Th e a m o u n ts

a p p e a r i n g u n d e r th o s e c o lu m n s r e fl e c t a l l o c a ti o n s o f w h a t e a c h p e r s o n
w a s s u p p o s e d t o g e t i n th e fir s t y e a r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t - a m I c o r r e c t s o f a r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t s o fa r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t t h o s e a m o u n t s th e f iv e m i ll io n a n d t h e t w o
10

m il li o n a n d t h e fi r s t y e a r t h e y a r e a m o u n ts t h a t a r e p a r t o f t h e 1 0
m il li o n i n t h e c a s e o f M r X f o r e x a m p le ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h e n y o u g o o u t s id e o f t h a t c o l u m n a n d th e n

y o u h a v e g o t a t t h e t o p 5 1 m il li o n . A lr i g h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n b e l o w R 5 1 m il li o n y o u h a v e g o t a k i n d o f t w o
c o l u m n s w i t h o u t li n e s , th e o n e r e l a ti n g t o M r X t h e r e i s tw o m i ll io n a n d
20

t h e n y o u ’v e g o t t h r e e m il li o n n e x t t o i t, a n d t h e n y o u ’v e g o t o t h e r
a m o u n ts w h i c h a r e – w h i c h r e l a t e t o t h e o t h e r p e o p l e .

Would I be

c o r r e c t to s a y t h a t th o s e a m o u n ts w h ic h a r e u n d e r t h a t 5 1 m i ll io n a r e
a m o u n ts t h a t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g e t n o t o u t o f t h e 2 5 5 mi ll i o n b u t
o u t o f t h e 5 1 m ill i o n , i n o th e r w o r d s w a s th e 5 1 m il li o n p a r t o f t h e
2 5 5 m i lli o n o r w a s it a d d i ti o n a l?

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f y o u c h e c k t h e p r o j e c t v a lu e , i t ’s

2 5 5 m i lli o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d i f y o u c h e c k t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r h e

b e li e v e d th a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e g o t 1 2 7 5 0 0 0 0 0 a n d t h e n t h a t w o u l d b e
t h e s e c o n d y e a r t h e y w i ll g e t t h is , s o i n t e r m s o f t h e p a y m e n t t h e y
w o u ld b e i n b a t c h e s b u t t h e f ir s t y e a r t h e y w o u ld p a y t h e 5 0 0 , t h e
5 m il li o n o r h a l f o f i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f y o u a r e t o g e t 1 0 m i ll io n t h e y w i ll p a y y o u

h a l f o f i t t h e fi r s t y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o i f y o u ta k e t h e f ir s t y e a r i n t h a t c o lu m n

w h a t it m e a n s i n r e l a ti o n t o th e fi r s t fi n a n c i a l y e a r th is p e r s o n w o u l d
g e t R 5 m il li o n , t h e o t h e r o n e R 2 . 5 m il li o n , a n d if y o u c h e c k t h e c o s t o f
b u s i n e s s fo r T M i s R 5 m il li o n b u t t h e f ir s t y e a r i f t h a t a m o u n t i s p a i d th e
p e r s o n w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d t h i s a m o u n t o f m o n e y, R 2 .5 m i ll io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

Yo u u n d e r s t a n d , in t h e fi r s t y e a r, a n d t h e n

t h e p a y m e n t , t h e a c t u a l p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e m a d e a r e a p p e a r i n g th e r e ,
t h e fi r s t p a y m e n t , th e s e c o n d p a y m e n t a n d th e n t h e th ir d p a y m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t m a y b e th a t w e w ill n o t u n d e r s ta n d e v e r y t h i n g
b u t i t o u g h t to b e p o s s i b le m a y b e t o f in d s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t b e a b l e
t o e x p l a i n it m u c h m o r e c l e a r e r i n d u e c o u r s e . M r M o k o e n a , i t o u g h t t o
b e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s C h a ir, w i t h o n ly q u e s t io n t o Mr

D u k w a n a t h a t I w a n t t o k n o w fr o m t h is s p r e a d s h e e t w h a t a r e t h e a c tu a l
a m o u n ts t h a t a r e p a i d , l e t ’s l e a v e e v e r y t h i n g e ls e . L e t ’s ju s t s i m p li fy i t ,
w e c a n s e e th a t , le t ’s ta lk to t h e p e r s o n a n d w h a t is t h e a c tu a l a m o u n t
r e c e i v e d , th e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h o t h e r s l a te r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C a n I p u t i t t h is w a y C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e

p e r s o n a n d w h a t w a s e a r m a r k e d f o r t h e p e r s o n a s to h o w m u c h h e
r e c e i v e d i t is s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u w il l w o r k it o u t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o s a y h o w m u c h w a s a c t u a ll y p a i d
10

a c c o r d i n g t o t h e s p r e a d s h e e t to th a t p e r s o n th a t ’s f in e , b u t if y o u a r e
a b l e to s a y t h a t ( i n d is t in c t ) h o w m u c h w a s a c t u a ll y p a i d a c c o r d i n g to
t h e s p r e a d s h e e t y o u s a y b o t h , i t j u s t d e p e n d s w h a t y o u a r e a b l e to s a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n t o a v o i d th e c o n fu s i o n t h a t I

s e e c o m in g in I t h in k i t w o u ld b e b e t t e r a s y o u s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e j u s t
g iv e t h e f ig u r e s , th e a m o u n t , th e p a y m e n ts w o u l d th e n c o m e i n , th e
p e r s o n t h a t w o u ld b e a t t a c h e d to t h a t , th a t w o u l d b e b e t t e r t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t ’s f in e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

So that we move from there.

S o l e t ’s d o t h a t , ju s t t h e t o t a l a m o u n t t h a t w a s , th a t

the person was supposed to get.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Wa s s u p p o s e d t o g e t w h e n t h e to t a l a m o u n t

was paid.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y le t ’s d o t h a t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir d o w e d o t h i s e x e r c is e t h a t h a s

c o n s u m e d u s n o w b e fo r e l u n c h o r a f te r l u n c h ?

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l if h e is g o in g t o ju s t s a y th e s e i n i ti a ls r e p r e s e n t
so and so, this is what he was supposed to get we can do that because
it s h o u l d b e q u ic k a n d t h e n w e c a n a d jo u r n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M r D u k w a n a l e t’s tr y.
C h a ir p e r s o n ju s t t o m a k e th e n u m b e r o f

u n i ts h e r e w ill b e 3 0 0 0 0 0 , 3 0 0 m i lli o n , t h e r e w o u l d b e 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i ts
a n d t h e r a t e p e r u n i t is 8 5 0 a n d t h e p r o j e c t v a l u e , t h e c o s t o f b u s i n e s s
in t h i s c a s e w it h t h e u n i ts w i t h t h e i n i t ia ls M r X e a r m a r k e d t o g e t
1 0 m i ll io n , T M a s I e x p la in e d , Th a d o M a g e s i a s th e h e a d o f t h e
10

d e p a r t m e n t R 5 m i ll io n , A M i n t h is c a s e is A c e M a g a s h u l e , R 1 0 m il li o n a s
t h e P r e m ie r o f th e F r e e S t a t e t h e n , O M i s O lu m L a m l e le t h a t’s
R 1 m i ll i o n , h e w a s th e h e a d o f th e d e p a r t m e n t , M E C o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t
a t t h e t i m e a n d t h e n t h e M E C in th is c a s e a lt h o u g h h e e x p l a in e d t o m e
w h a t t h is M E C m e a n s h e c a l l e d a n u m b e r o f o t h e r p e o p l e a s M E C a n d I
w i ll r a th e r n o t m e n ti o n th is o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y o u a r e n o t s u r e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

B e c a u s e h e m e n t io n e d a n o t h e r o f o th e r

p e o p l e , w e w ill s a y M E C t h is a n d t h e n w h e n I a s k h i m h e w il l g iv e m e
a n o t h e r n a m e a n d I s a y M E C ( i n d is t in c t ) h e t a l k s o f a n o t h e r M E C a n d
20

t h e n h e w il l g i v e a n o t h e r n a m e s o I w i ll n o t b e ( in d is ti n c t) i n t h i s c a s e
m e n ti o n t h i s o n e
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e n t h e s e a r e t h e p e o p l e th a t h e

m e n ti o n e d , a n d i f y o u c h e c k t h e a r g u m e n t h e r e i s a ll th e s e p e o p l e w e r e
k e y i n s e c u r i n g th is p r o j e c t , Th a d u M a g e s i w a s th e o n e w h o m a d e i t

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p o s s i b le a p p o i n ti n g a n d a l l t h o s e t h in g s a n d M e O l u m L a m le le is t h e
M E C t h e n o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t w i ll b e g i v e n t h a t a n d t h e n y o u h a v e a ls o
A c e M a g a s h u l e a s t h e P r e m i e r o f t h e Pr o v in c e w h o g e t th a t a m o u n t a s
s t ip u l a t e d t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

So the other names that are

m e n ti o n e d a r e p e o p le t h a t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

No he never spoke about these.

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e n e v e r s p o k e a b o u t t h e m , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

D o y o u k n o w w h o is M a r ti n s S t e v e a n d

Rantwa you don’t know them?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o I d o n ’ t k n o w th e m .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

D o y o u k n o w w h o is J T, D i e d e r ic k s , y o u

know them?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o I d o n ’ t k n o w th e m .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

B u t a l l I k n o w a b o u t th e J T w h e n w e s p o k e

a t t h e ti m e h e w a s g o in g t o K i m b e r l e y a n d h e w a s t o m e e t J T a n d w h e n
h e s a i d J T t o m e h e s a i d J i m m y Ta w u a n d h e w a s g o i n g to m e e t J i m m y
Ta w u a n d h e s a i d h e i s J T, s o th a t ’s w h y I h a v e t h e n a m e a s J T t h e r e .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

No.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

I d o n ’ t k n o w D i e d e r ic k s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e D i e d e r ic k s d o y o u k n o w ?

C h a ir w o u l d w e a d jo u r n a t t h i s m o m e n t ?

Ye s w e w i ll t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o .
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y Mr M o k o e n a ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e r e a d y C h a ir.

Before you proceed Mr Dukwana just to maybe wrap

u p w h a t y o u m a y h a v e t o s a y a b o u t t h e s p r e a d s h e e t is i t c o r r e c t t o
10

u n d e r s t a n d th e s p r e a d s h e e t to h a v e b e e n p a r t o f a c o n v e r s a t io n
b e t w e e n t w o p a r tn e r s i n t h e s a m e j o i n t v e n t u r e o r c o - d ir e c to r s o r
k e e p i n g t h e s a m e p r o j e c t , Mr B a m b a n i t o M r S o d e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s i t w il l b e c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e o n e w a s w r it i n g t o t h e o t h e r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M a k i n g a w a r e th e o t h e r a w a r e o f h o w t h e

m o n e y w a s s p e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Of how the money was either meant to be divided and
h o w p a r t o f i t m a y h a v e b e e n a lr e a d y p a i d , j a o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Mr Dukwana we have exhausted that

t o p ic , c a n w e m o v e o n t o p a g e 1 8 , p a g e 1 8 C h a ir i n th o s e p a r a g r a p h s
a p p a r e n t fr o m t h a t p a g e y o u s e e m t o b e m a k i n g v e r y s t r o n g s ta t e m e n ts ,
d o y o u w is h t o s u m m a r is e f o r t h e C h a ir w h a t y o u a r e c o n v e y i n g i n
those paragraphs and take us please through paragraph 53 to 58.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t w e

h a v e p r e s e n te d t o d a y a n d m a n y o t h e r s , o n e I s u b m it t h a t t h e

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in v o lv e m e n t o f M r M a g a s h u l e in t h i s a s b e s t o s a u d i t h e is t m a k e s h i m
u n f i t t o h o l d p u b lic o ffic e o f t h e O ff ic e o f t h e S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l o f th e
A N C . M r M a g a s h u le ’s s u i ta b l e p l a c e o f a b o d e i n p u b l ic in a j a i l c e ll . I f
o u r l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s w e r e w e l l o i l e d M r M a g a s h u l a a n d a ll
t h o s e w h o a i d e d a n d a b e t t e d t h is a s b e s t o s a u d i t s h o u l d b e d o i n g ti m e
in j a il .
To d a t e n o e r a d ic a ti o n o f a s b e s t o s r o o fs h a s b e e n c a r r i e d o u t
in a n y t o w n s h ip in t h e Fr e e S t a t e t o a s b e s t o s r o o f ( i n d is t in c t ) y e t,
2 5 5 m i lli o n h a s b e e n a d v a n c e d t o B la c k h e a d C o n s u l t in g J o i n t Ve n tu r e
10

a n d th e 7 7 m i ll io n o f t h e S t a t e f u n d is a s u b j e c t o f a l it i g a t io n i n o u r
c o u r ts , a n d o u r l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s a r e d o in g n o th in g .

I i n v i te

t h e C o m m i s s i o n to i n v e s ti g a te a n d s u b p o e n a t h e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s i n g , M r Th a b o o r M r N t h i m o ts e M o k h e s i . T h e C h i e f
Fi n a n c e O ff ic e r a t th e t i m e , t h e H e a d o f S u p p l y C h a i n in t h e
D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e t h e n M E C o f H u m a n S e tt l e m e n t .
M r M a g a s h u le w a s t h e P r e m i e r a t t h e t i m e , M s C h o lo t a a n d M s
M o r o a k i s h o u ld b e n o e x c e p t io n s .

Th e M E C o f F i n a n c e in t h e Fr e e

S t a te a t t h e ti m e a n d H e a d o f Tr e a s u r y a t t h e ti m e h a v e s o m e
e x p l a n a t io n
20

to

do

also.

M a ’a m

Mokoena

should

come

to

th e

C o m m i s s i o n t o e x p l a in t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s t h a t l e d h e r t o r e q u e s t
f u n d i n g f r o m M r M a g a s h u l a f o r h e r d a u g h t e r ’s e d u c a t io n a b r o a d .
T h e o ffi c e o f t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e w o u ld b e a
g r e a t r e s o u r c e t o t h e C o m m i s s io n . T h e C o m m is s i o n a n d t h e p e o p l e o f
S o u th A f r i c a , i n p a r tic u la r th e F r e e S t a t e , d e s e r v e t o k n o w t h e t r u t h
a b o u t t h is a s b e s t o s a u d i t h e is t. T h e C o m m is s i o n w o u l d a ls o d o w e ll t o

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s u b p o e n a g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a ls w h o w e r e a t th e h e l m a t t h e ti m e o f t h is
p r o c e s s , a n d i n th is c a s e I m e n t io n a n u m b e r o f p e o p le in t h e
D e p a r t m e n t, b u t I m u s t s a y t h a t I a m n o t s u g g e s ti n g t h a t t h e p e r s o n s a t
t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n ts c i t e d a b o v e w e r e
in v o lv e d i n th e a s b e s t o s a u d i t h e is t . M e t h i n k s t h e a s b e s to s a u d i t h e i s t
w o u ld n o t h a v e o c c u r r e d w i t h o u t t h e ir k n o w l e d g e .
W h a t b e g s t h e q u e s ti o n is w h y t h is p r o j e c t w a s u n d e r t a k e n
o n ly n t h e F r e e S t a te .

As b e s t o s r o o f e d h o u s e s a r e fo u n d in a l l

p r o v i n c e s , e v e n t h e Fr e e S t a t e a l o n e R 2 5 5 m i lli o n w a s s p e n t f o r a
10

p u r p o r t e d a s b e s t o s a u d i t . H o w m u c h o f t h e a m o u n t w a s f r o m t h e p u b l ic
payers – I beg yours?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N a ti o n a l P u b lic P a y e r s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l P u b lic P a y e r s v ia th e

N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t . I h a v e a r e a s o n a b l e b e l i e f
that the Free State Government under Mr Magashule was the only
f e r til e g r o u n d in th e c o u n tr y fo r t h i s a s b e s t o s a u d i t h e is t t o b e s ta g e d
a n d e x e c u te d .
T h e C o m m i s s io n s h o u l d a l s o c o m m is s i o n a n a u d i t to b e
c o n d u c t e d o n a n y p a y m e n ts m a d e fr o m B l a c k h e a d C o n s u l ti n g J o in t
20

Ve n t u r e t o a n y p e r s o n s o r p r i v a t e e n ti ti e s .

F u r t h e r t h e C o m m is s i o n

o u g h t t o in v e s t i g a t e i f e v e r th e r e w e r e m u n ic i p a li t ie s a n d o t h e r O r g a n s
o f S t a t e i n th e Fr e e S t a te t h a t w e r e c o n tr a c te d t o e i t h e r B l a c k h e a d
C o n s u lt i n g o r ( in d i s ti n c t) J o i n t Ve n t u r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Ye s , t h e p a r a g r a p h s o n p a g e 2 0 ,

p a r a g r a p h s 3 a n d 6 4 y o u h a v e a lr e a d y a ll u d e d t o t h a t a l le g a t i o n t o t h e

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C h a ir, y o u d o n ’ t n e e d to d e a l w i th t h o s e a l l e g a ti o n s a n y m o r e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w c a n y o u m o v e o n to d e a l w i th a

n e w t o p ic i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t , w h i c h is i n tr o d u c e d fr o m p a g e 2 0 a n d
p a r a g r a p h – w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 6 5 , y o u a r e a ls o r e f e r r in g t o
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t M r M o k o e n a s o i n r e g a r d t o th e

A s b e s t o s E r a d ic a t i o n P r o je c t a r e y o u s a y in g a s a m a t te r o f fa c t t h a t
a c t u a ll y n o a s b e s t o s w a s r e m o v e d fr o m h o u s e s o r a r e y o u s a y i n g t h e y
10

m a y h a v e r e m o v e d i t fr o m s o m e h o u s e s b u t c e r t a i n l y n o t a s m a n y a s
t h e y w e r e m e a n t to d o i n t e r m s o f 3 0 0 h o u s in g u n i ts ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n i t is c l e a r fr o m t h e r e c o r d s t h a t

w e h a v e p r e s e n t e d t h a t t h e i n t e n ti o n w a s ju s t t o d o t h e a u d i t , a n d t h a t
w a s i t , t h a t w a s d o n e . Th e p a r t o f t h e e r a d ic a ti o n o f t h i s w o u ld h a v e
b e e n t h e o th e r a s I s a y t h e o t h e r p r o j e c t b u t in a s f a r a s t h i s a n d i n
t e r m s o f th e i n s tr u c ti o n s t h a t w e r e r e c e iv e d fr o m th e D e p a r t m e n t i t w a s
f o r th e a u d i t o f th e 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s a t R 8 5 0 p e r u n i t t o t a ll i n g
R 2 5 5 m il li o n f o r t h a t a l o n e a n d t h is i s w h a t w a s d o n e a n d i f y o u c h e c k
e v e n i n t h e r e p o r t h e r e t h a t t h e p e r io d I th o u g h t t h a t t h e e v id e n c e
20

le a d e r w o u ld a ls o j u s t f o r th e r e c o r d t h e r e p o r t it s e l f t h a t t h e y
s u b m i tt e d a n d i f y o u c h e c k th e p e r io d th a t t h e c o n t r a c t w a s fr o m t h e 1 s t
o f D e c e m b e r a n d i t e n d e d a n d t h e r e p o r t , t h e f in a l r e p o r t w a s g i v e n i n
F e b r u a r y, n o w i f y o u lo o k a t th a t o n l y 2 5 5 m il li o n w a s p a i d f o r a p r o j e c t
t h a t t o o k D e c e m b e r, J a n u a r y a n d t h e n F e b r u a r y a n d e v e r y t h in g w a s
t h e r e , s o t h e r e w a s n o e r a d i c a t io n o f t h is o r r e m o v a l o f t h e s e a s b e s t o s

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h o u s i n g m e a n i n g b e s i d e s t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y m a d e a n a p p e a l th a t t h i s
w o u ld h e l p i n t e r m s o f t h e w e l l b e in g o f t h e p e o p l e o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e b u t
t h e m o n e y is s p e n t , t h e m o n e y i s l o s t , a n d o u r o w n p e o p le i n t h e F r e e
S t a te w h o a r e s ti ll i n th is a s b e s t o s r o o f e d h o u s e s a r e s t il l e x p e r i e n c i n g
t h e s a m e c o n d i t io n s e v e n b e fo r e t h e h a s t e t h a t t h is p r o j e c t w a s d e a l t
w i t h i n t h e fir s t p l a c e .
T h a t is w h y w h e n I in d i c a t e d t h e r e w a s n o u r g e n c y t h e y s h o u l d
have

gone

through

the

processes

and

in v i t e d

other

p e o p le

to

p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h i s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t l e t m e ju s t u n d e r s ta n d I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d
a t th e b e g in n in g , I t h o u g h t t h a t th e 2 5 5 m i lli o n i n t e r m s o f th e le t t e r o f
a p p o i n t m e n t a t p a g e 9 4 I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e R 2 5 5 m ill i o n w o u l d h a v e
in c l u d e d t h e r e m o v a l o f t h e a c t u a l a s b e s to s r o o fs a n d I g u e s s y o u c a n ’t
r e m o v e w i t h o u t p u t ti n g i n s o m e t h in g e ls e , a n d p u tt i n g w h a t e v e r w a s
a c c e p ta b l e , b u t m a y b e t o t h i n k t h a t a ll o f t h a t c o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e o n
t h e b a s is o f R 2 5 5 m i ll io n is n o t r e a l is ti c fo r 3 0 0 0 0 0 h o u s e s , b u t a r e y o u
s a y in g t h a t a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r o je c t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n to t h is jo in t
v e n tu r e w a s s i m p ly t o d o t h e a u d i t , i d e n ti f y w h ic h h o u s e s h a d a s b e s to s
r o o f s , y o u m e n ti o n e d t h e a s s e s s m e n t a s w e ll , a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t y o u r

20

u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t t h e R 2 5 5 m il li o n d i d n o t g o b e y o n d th e m d o in g
that?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t’s w h y I t h o u g h t i t w o u ld b e

w i s e if w e g o to t h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e r e p o r t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

To t h e r e p o r t a n d j u s t a l l o w t h e C h a ir p e r s o n

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t o g e t t h e g li m p s e o f t h a t r e p o r t . I n fa c t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e c o u l d g o t h e r e b u t w h a t y o u c a n t e ll m e is

your own understanding.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o t h in g o f t h a t s o r t.

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g is

t h e r e p o r t i n f a c t in te r ms o f th e l e tt e r y o u k n o w to th e D e p a r t m e n t i t
w a s f o r t h e a u d i t a s w e ll a s f o r th e e r a d ic a ti o n a n d th e r e m o v a l o f th e
r u b b le t o a s a f e r p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

A n d w h a t a ls o t h e – w h a t t h e in s tr u c ti o n w a s

a ls o c l e a r ly i n d i c a t e d t h a t i t w a s f o r t h e a u d i t o f t h e a s b e s t o s h o u s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y j u s t to m a k e s u r e t h a t w e h a v e t h e s a m e

u n d e r s t a n d in g , y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t ly n o w
y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g m i g h t b e th e s a m e a s m i n e t h e n , is t h e p o s it i o n t h a t
a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e l e t te r o f i n s tr u c t io n t o p e r f o r m , th e l e tt e r a t p a g e
9 4 fr o m th e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t, is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t it w a s
in s t r u c t i n g th e m t o d o th e a u d i ts , m a k e t h e a s s e s s m e n t , r e m o v e th e
a s b e s to s , t a k e it t o a p a r t ic u l a r s i te a n d r e p l a c e , m a k e a r e p la c e m e n t
o n t h e r o o fs , w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

I n it i a ll y th a t i s w h a t w a s s u p p o s e d to b e b u t

if y o u c h e c k th e l e t t e r i t t a l k s o f a s s e s s i n g , a u d i t in g a n d – w h a t d id
t h e y u s e , th e w o r d , i f w e c a n g o t o t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t’s p a g e 9 4 i f m y r e c o l l e c ti o n is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

A r e y o u lo o k in g f o r th e r e p o r t o r t h e

le t t e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e le t t e r.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e l e t t e r.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t ’s p a g e 9 4 .

T h e le t t e r C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e i n s tr u c t io n is

a u d it , a s s e s s , a n d G P S a ll p r e - 9 4 h o u s i n g u n i ts i n t h e p r o v i n c e a n d i t
s a y s a t a r a t e o f 8 5 0 , s o t h a t i ts e l f t h e i n s tr u c ti o n i n t h i s c a s e
e x c lu d e s , t h e r e is n o in s tr u c ti o n t o r e m o v e , i t is o n ly t o a u d i t , to a s s e s s
a n d G P S a ll t h e s e . A t th a t r a te t h a t is g iv e n t h e r e 8 5 0 a n d t h a t is w h a t
the report then does.
CHAIRPERSON: Also says that.
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d i d a s k e a r l ie r o n w h a t G P S m e a n s a n d I th i n k
y o u g a v e m e a n e x p la n a ti o n b u t I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h a t – is th a t
s o m e t h i n g t h a t th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o a s w e l l, i n a d d i t io n t o
a u d it i n g a n d a s s e s s i n g o r . . .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e y n e e d e d a c o m p a n y t h a t w o u l d u s e

w h a t e v e r i n s tr u m e n ts .. . ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON: GPS?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

J u s t to d e a l w i t h th e i d e n ti f ic a t i o n o f w h e r e

t h e p r o p e r t y is a n d t h e n h a v e p h o t o s o f t h e p r o p e r ty i ts e l f , u n i t b y u n i t ,
20

o n ly t h o s e t h a t w il l h a v e a s b e s to s , s o t h e y w i ll b e a b l e t o a s s e s s if t h e y
w e r e t o r e m o v e t h e r o o f in g w i ll t h a t n o t a ff e c t t h e fo u n d a ti o n a n d m a n y
o th e r t h i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e f e r e n c e t o G P S i s j u s t f o r t h e p i c tu r e s o f th e
houses?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

J u s t f o r a l l t h a t , th a t ’s i t .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . S o t h e w h o l e R 2 5 5 m il li o n w a s
e ffe c tiv e f o r i d e n t i fy i n g th e h o u s e s t h a t h a d a s b e s t o s r o o fs a n d m a k i n g
a n a s s e s s m e n t, in t e r m s o f t h e le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I n te r ms o f t h e le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s ?
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w o u l d r e c a l l t h a t Mr

D u k w a n a d id t a k e Mr M o k o e n a t o p a g e 9 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
10

N o , 9 7 , s o r r y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

And asked Mr Dukwana to read paragraph

t w o w h ic h i s w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

T h a t is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t r e l a t e s , i t ’s a n

SLA agreement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

A n d i f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a v e r e g a r d t o t h a t

it s a y s i t s a y s t h e D e p a r t m e n t a p p o i n ts t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t o
a s s e s s / a u d i t h o u s e s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, I ’ m a t 9 7 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

A t th e b o t t o m C h a ir.

A t t h e b o t t o m C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h c l o s e to ?
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

C o r r e c t , y e s a n d I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h a t M r

D u k w a n a r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d w h e n h e w a s b e i n g le d b y M r M o k o e n a ,

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s o it a n s w e r s t h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n .
c h a r a c te r is e d

the

w h o le

c o n tr a c t

as

A n d th a t is w h y C h a ir h a s
n o n s e n s ic a l ,

the

le t t e r

of

a p p o i n t m e n t s a y s s o m e t h in g , th e S L A a g r e e m e n t s a y s s o m e t h i n g a n d
t h e y r e la t e to t h e s a m e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

O k a y M r D u k w a n a y o u w i ll c o n f ir m i t l o o k s l ik e i n

t e r m s o f t h e 2 0 1 7 a g r e e m e n t w h a t th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o i n c l u d e d
d is p o s a l o f a s b e s to s t o a c e r ta i n s i te , t o a n a p p r o v e d d e s i g n a t e d
10

d is p o s a l s i te b u t fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a id th a t w a s n o t i n c l u d e d i n t h e
le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t.

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

I h a v e n ’ t g o n e b a c k to th e

le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t b u t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e s a y i n g t h a t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s a s I s a y t h is is s o m e th i n g , t h a t ’s w h y I

w a s s a y i n g i t c o n tr a d ic ts if it w a s d o n e d o n e b y th e l a w y e r s th e y w o u ld
h a v e s e e n th is , t h i s o n e e v e n o n p a g e 9 7 i t s a y s s o m e t h in g , i t in c l u d e s
t h e r e h a n d li n g a n d d is p o s a l o f a s b e s t o s s h e e t s a n d t h e o n ly w a y y o u
c a n d o t h a t is b y r e m o v i n g th e m , a n d t h e n t o t h e d e s i g n a t e d d is p o s a l
s i te , b u t i f y o u r e a d th e i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t w a s g iv e n i n t h is c a s e it w a s
o n ly to a s s e s s a n d t h e n t o a u d i t a n d G P S a t th a t r a t e t h a t w a s g iv e n ,
20

s o t h e r e w a s n o r a te g iv e n f o r t h e r e m o v a l a n d f o r o t h e r t h i n g s in th a t
le t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I h a v e j u s t g o n e b a c k t o p a g e 9 4 , it a p p e a r s th a t
t h e o n ly p a r a g r a p h in p a g e 9 4 w h e r e o n e c a n f in d w h a t th e H O D w a s
s a y in g t h is jo i n t – th is c o m p a n y s h o u ld d o a p p e a r s i n p a r a g r a p h o n e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d it s a y s a u d it , a s s e s s a n d G P S a l l p r e - 1 9 9 4

g o v e r n m e n t h o u s i n g u n i ts in t h e P r o v i n c e a t a r a te o f R 8 5 0 VAT
e x c lu s i v e p e r u n i t u p t o a m a x i m u m o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i ts [ R 2 5 5 m il li o n VAT
e x c lu s i v e ] h e r e in a f te r r e f e r r e d t o b l a h - b l a h - b l a h , w i ll b e p a y a b le fo r a l l
a u d it e d u n it s a n d i t s h o u l d b e n o t e d t h a t a l l a s b e s t o s u n it s a r e
e x p e c te d to b e a u d i t e d in t h e P r o v i n c e .
S o i f y o u s a y t h e r e f e r e n c e t o G P S d o e s n ’ t i n v o l v e r e m o v i n g it
w o u ld a p p e a r th a t i t d o e s n ’ t s a y a n y t h in g a b o u t, t h e l e tt e r d o e s n ’ t s a y
a n y th in g a b o u t r e m o v i n g .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s i t d o e s n ’ t s a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

Ye s .
A n d t h e e m p h a s is t h e r e C h a ir it is a l w a y s

throughout that paragraph it is audit, audit, audit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y ?
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

I ’ m s a y i n g t h a t t h e e m p h a s is i n t h a t

p a r a g r a p h it is a u d i t , n o t h i n g e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

A n d I j u s t w a n t to e m p h a s iz e t h a t i t s a y s

h e r e t h e n u m b e r o n e in p a g e 9 4 w h e n i t r e a d s e v e r y th in g t h e r e t h e
u n i ts a n d t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y t h a t w ill b e p a id a s a t o ta l p r o je c t c o s t ,
it s a y s w il l b e p a y a b l e f o r a ll a u d it e d u n it s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u u n d e r s ta n d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 147 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h i s m e a n s e v e n i f t h a t u n i t th a t a u d i t is n o t

a n a s b e s t o s i t d o e s n o t h a v e a n a s b e s t o s r o o f , y o u w il l b e p a i d ju s t b y
m e r e ly m e n t io n in g t h a t t h i s h o u s e a n d a ll t h o s e t h i n g s , s o th a t is w h e r e
I w a s s a y in g C h a i r p e r s o n i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e f o r y o u n e e d e d to ,
t h a t ’s w h y I w a s s a y i n g y o u c o u l d h a v e d o n e t h e a s s e s s m e n t y o u r s e l f
a n d o n c e y o u ’v e g o t th e r e p o r t y o u w o u l d k n o w e x a c t ly h o w m a n y o f
t h e s e h o u s e s th a t h a v e a s b e s t o s r o o f a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld t h e n s a y g o
a n d r e m o v e t h e m a n d d o o n e , tw o , t h r e e , s o t h a t w o u l d b e a b e t t e r w a y
o f d o i n g t h i n g s , b u t f o r t h e m to s a y f o r y o u t o d o t h e a s s e s s m e n t a n d
10

a ls o t o d o th e a u d i ti n g a n d G P S y o u d o a l l t h e

houses that is why

w h e r e w e s a y i t i s a c t u a lly a s c h e m e in t h is c a s e , y o u s i p h o n in g t h e
m o n e y, y o u u s e t h is , t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 , i f y o u g o t o t h e r e p o r t y o u w i ll s e e
t h a t th e h o u s e s t h a t w e r e s a id t o b e h a v i n g a s b e s t o s r o o fs d o n o t c o m e
c lo s e t o 3 0 0 0 0 0 , b u t th is o n e s a y s w il l b e p a y a b l e f o r a l l a u d i te d u n i ts
a n d t h e n i t g o e s o n t o s a y a n d i t s h o u l d b e n o t e d t h a t a ll a s b e s to s u n it s
are expected to be audited in the province.
N o w t h a t is w h e r e I g e t s o m e d i ffi c u l ti e s , y o u s a y a ll a u d i te d
u n i ts a n d t h e n y o u s a y a s b e s to s u n i ts a r e e x p e c te d t o b e a u d i t e d i n th e
P r o v i n c e . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r e a d t h a t t o in c l u d e a u d i ti n g u n i ts th a t m i g h t
n o t h a v e a s b e s t o s r o o fs , t h a t ’s h o w y o u r e a d i t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I r e a d it to s a y t h e fir s t o n e , t h e fir s t

in s t r u c t i o n is y o u d o a u d i t a ll t h e h o u s e s , t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 , b u t y o u m u s t
m a k e s u r e th a t a ll u n i ts th a t h a v e a s b e s t o s in th e F r e e S t a t e a r e
a u d it e d .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y b e l e t m e h e l p y o u a n d t h e C h a ir

a n d r e fe r y o u to p a g e 4 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: 23?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

4 3 C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: 43.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d s i m p ly r e a d u n d e r t h a t h e a d in g th a t

s a y s t h e f i e l d f i n d in g s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e fi e l d fi n d i n g s C h a i r p e r s o n o u t o f a t o t a l

o f a ll t h e F r e e S t a t e t o w n s h i p s a s s e s s e d v i a s i te v i s i ts t h e f o l lo w in g
10

w e r e d is c o v e r e d . T h e a c t u a l n u m b e r o f r e s id e n ti a l u n i ts t h a t c o n t a i n e d
a s b e s to s c o u l d o n l y b e q u a n ti f ie d a f t e r t h e p h y s i c a l a u d i t h a s b e e n
d o n e , h o w e v e r t h e a u d i t e d e n c o u n t e r e d n u m b e r o f r e s i d e n t ia l u n it s
c o n ta in i n g a s b e s t o s i s 3 6 3 0 3 s t a n d s a n d t h e s t a n d s w a lk e d p h y s ic a l ly
and assessed is seen at more or less or plus minus 300 000.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

S o t h a t i s t h e p o in t t h a t y o u a r e m a k in g

t h a t th e o n ly o n e s th a t w e r e a s s e s s e d w e r e 3 6 0 0 0 y e t y o u w i ll b e
e n t i tl e d t o b e p a id t h e e n tir e a m o u n t o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 u n i t s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W h a t it m e a n s i f y o u w e r e t o d o t h e

c a l c u l a ti o n s y o u w i ll t h e n s a y fo r th e a s b e s t o s a n d e v e r y t h in g y o u
20

w o u ld t h e n s a y 3 6 , th e G P S w o u l d s a y 3 6 3 0 3 m u l ti p l i e d b y 8 5 0 a n d
t h a t i s w h a t y o u w i ll p a y b u t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w o u l d b e m u c h l e s s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t w o u l d b e m u c h le s s b u t y o u p a y f o r t h e

R 3 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t w e r e p h y s ic a lly a s s e s s e d , w a lk e d in a n d a s s e s s e d s o
y o u s ti ll p a y t h e 8 5 0 .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e q u e s t i o n t h e n is o r b e fo r e I a s k t h a t , is t h is

p a g e 4 3 p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t th a t – o f t h e c o m p a n y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e r e p o r t s t a r t s o n p a g e 3 9 C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h i s is p a r t o f th e r e p o r t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th a t ’s p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t .

Ye s .

N o w w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e ju s ti fi c a t io n fo r t h e

H O D t o in s t r u c t th a t t h e y s h o u l d a u d i t e v e n h o u s e s th a t d i d n o t h a v e
a s b e s to s r o o fs , b e c a u s e y o u c a n s e e w h e t h e r t h e r o o f i s a s b e s t o s
10

w i t h o u t e v e n g o i n g in t o th e h o u s e . A r e y o u a b l e to t h r o w li g h t o n t h a t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th a t ’s w h a t I i n d ic a t e d a n d t h a t i s t h e

r e a s o n w h y I r e f e r r e d t o th is a s a h e i s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a h e i s t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t th e – t h e r e w a s a n u m b e r s p e c if i e d

fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g , t h a t i s 3 0 0 0 0 0 , a n d t h e r e is a fi g u r e p e r u n i t w h ic h
is 8 5 0 a n d t h e r e is a t o ta l b u d g e t t h a t is t h e r e t h a t is f o r t h i s p r o je c t
2 5 5 m i lli o n , s o w o r k in g i t o u t t h e r e y o u j u s t w o r k t h e t o t a l a m o u n t a n d
w o r k e v e r y t h in g a n d s a y g o d o w n s o y o u w o r k a l l t h is a n d y o u m a k e
s u r e th a t y o u g e t t h e m o n e y, a ll o f i t , a n d y o u c a n ju s ti fy t h a t I w e n t to
20

t h e h o u s e a n d t h e h o u s e d o e s n o t h a v e a n a s b e s t o s a n d I w e n t to t h e s e
o n ly 3 6 o u t o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 i n t h e w h o l e o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I h a v e a s u s p ic io n t h a t y o u r c o u n s e l h a s q u i c k ly
c a l c u l a te d w h a t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n , 8 5 0 f o r 3 6 0 0 0 h o u s e s i f a n y b o d y
h a s I w o u l d li k e t o k n o w th e fi g u r e . O h h e h a s n ’ t .
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n th e o n l y

Page 150 of 278

thing that I

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h o u g h t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n n e e d e d a n a n s w e r to is w h a t is a G P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

If you go to page 55 it answers the

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h g e o g r a p h i c a l i n f o r m a ti o n s y s t e m .
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

Ye s . N o , n o C h a ir y o u g o d o w n t h e r e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, d i d I lo o k a t t h e w r o n g o n e .
ADV SMANGA SETHEN E:

O th e r e l e c tr o n ic s p e c i a l d a ta b a s e i t w il l

s a y th e G P S p o s i ti o n o f th e h o u s e c a n b e m e t a t th e a d d e d a d v a n t a g e
10

t h a t e a c h o f t h e a b o v e c a n la t e r b e r e v is e d b y G P S a n d n a v i g a t io n , s o
t h e w a y th e y w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t th a t i n fo r m a t io n th a t t h e y w i ll g e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. B u t s o 3 6 0 0 0 h o u s i n g u n it s a t R 8 5 0 p e r
u n i t w il l b e fa r l e s s t h a n th e . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e 2 2 5 m i lli o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s a b o u t R 5 m i ll io n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o I a m s a y i n g it w i ll b e f a r . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fa r l e s s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Th a n R 2 5 0 m ill i o n .

B u t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w Mr D u k w a n a b e c a u s e

o b v i o u s l y y o u h a v e s p o k e n t o p e o p l e a n d y o u h a v e lo o k e d a t
d o c u m e n ts i s t h e r e a n y t h in g t h a t y o u h a v e c o m e a c r o s s t h a t s a y s w h a t
t h e ju s ti fi c a t io n w a s w h y h o u s i n g u n it s th a t d id n o t h a v e a s b e s to s h a d
to be visited?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

E v e r y t i m e y o u e n g a g e o n t h is t h e o n l y

c o n c l u s i o n t h a t o n e c o m e s t o i s t h a t i t w a s o n ly m o t iv a te d b y

Page 151 of 278

greed

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u g e t a s m u c h m o n e y fr o m t h e w h o le p r o je c t a n d
y o u c o u l d s e e a ls o b y th e r e q u e s ts t h a t w e r e c o m i n g th a t t h e s e p e o p l e
w o u ld n o t m i n d i f i n a n y p r o je c t C h a ir p e r s o n y o u n e e d t o h a v e a b i t o f
q u a n ti ti e s a n d m a k e s u r e , e s p e c ia ll y t h is , y o u w o u l d k n o w t h a t t h is i s
h o w m u c h t h is p r o je c t w o u ld c o s t i f y o u h a d to d o t h a t , b u t fo r a
p e r s o n s t a r ti n g a n y w h e r e y o u s ta r t w i t h s a y th e r e ’s R 5 0 m il li o n t h a t w e
p u t a s i d e f o r c o s t fo r b u s in e s s a n d t h e n i f y o u g o a g a i n a t t h e e n d
y o u ’v e g o t R 7 7 m i ll io n th a t i n th e p a p e r s t h a t M s C h o lo t a a ls o p l a c e d in
t h is c a s e a ls o i n d ic a te t h a t th e R 7 7 m il li o n t h e l a s t p a y m e n t w a s f o r – it
10

w a s a p r o fi t f o r th e m b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t h a v e a n y o v e r h e a d s
e tc e t e r a , s o m e a n i n g th e 7 7 m il li o n w a s t o b e s h a r e d . I f y o u g o t h e r e
y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e p o r t in d i c a t e s t h a t u p o n d is c o v e r in g t h a t 7 7 m il li o n
w a s p a i d t h e y h a d a m e e t in g a n d i n t h a t m e e t in g t h e y t h e n t o o k t h e
1 6 m i ll io n , t h e 1 7 m il li o n a n d s h a r e d i t e q u a l ly a n d t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s
le f t b e c a u s e it w a s s a id th e y w e r e o v e r t h e r e p o r t in th e r e p o r t i n t h e ir
p a p e r s t h a t t h e y s u b m i tt e d to c o u r t h e a r g u e s t h a t t h e l a te M r
M p a m b a n i i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r h a d a c tu a lly fo u n d o u t
t h a t th e y w e r e o v e r p a i d b y R 7 7 m il li o n , b u t th e n h e r e a li s e d th a t i t w a s ,
t h a t i t w a s s i x t y – h e s a id i t w a s 6 0 m i ll io n a n d t h e n w e h a d t o s h a r e t h e

20

7 0 m i ll io n o u t o f t h e 7 7 m ill i o n . T h e n h e g o e s to C o u r t t o d e m a n d t h a t
h a l f o f t h e 6 0 m il li o n is d u e t o h i m a n d th a t m u s t b e p a id , s o t h a t is w h y
in t h e p a p e r s h e d e m a n d s 3 0 m il li o n o f t h e 7 7 m ill i o n b e c a u s e t h e y
w o u ld h a v e s h a r e d t h e m o n e y, s o w h a t I’ m t r y i n g to p o i n t o u t i s y o u
h a v e 5 0 m il li o n c o s t t o b u s in e s s , y o u h a v e 7 7 m i ll io n i t w o r k s o u t t o
1 2 7 m i lli o n . O f t h a t 2 5 5 m il li o n w o r t h o f p r o je c t t h a t g o e s a s a p r o fi t t h a t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e s e p e o p l e h a d a n d i t s h o w s y o u h o w b a d t h e w h o l e th i n g w a s , t h e r e
is n o p r o je c t , i t ’s a l m o s t h a l f o f th e t o t a l p r o je c t t h a t w i ll g iv e y o u a
profit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e a n s w e r is y o u h a v e n o t c o m e a c r o s s a n y th i n g
t h a t p r o v i d e s j u s t i fic a ti o n f o r – t h e r e m i g h t b e n o n e ju s ti fi c a t io n m a y b e
f o r t h e p r o je c t in r e la t io n to t h e r o o fs th a t h a v e a s b e s t o s , a n d m a y b e
t h e r e is j u s ti f ic a t i o n b u t f o r t h o s e t h a t d i d n ’ t h a v e a s b e s t o s r o o f y o u
s a y y o u h a v e c o m e a c r o s s n o th in g t h a t p r o v id e s a n y j u s t i fic a ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

N o th i n g , n o t h i n g c h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I t a k e i t M r M o k o e n a t h a t o u r t e a m s a r e a lr e a d y
u n d e r w a y t o g e t a ll t h e s e p a p e r s fr o m li ti g a ti o n t h a t h e r e f e r s to a n d s o
on?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Indeed Chair indeed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d Mr S o d i is s t il l – i s s ti ll a l iv e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e is a l iv e .
CHAIRPERSON: But you said you have not met him?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o I h a v e n o t m e t h i m b u t h e is s ti ll a l iv e .

Ye s C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja we…
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E ff o r t s a r e m a d e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : E ff o r t s a r e b e i n g m a d e t o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E v e n t h o u g h w e c a n n o t [ i n d is ti n c t ] . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e t h i m . J a o k a y. A lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a i r fr o m t h e l a w y e r s m a t h e m a tic s t h a t
a r e o n tr u s t. T h e y s a y t h a t [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m th e l a w y e r s o f w h i c h I d o n o t tr u s t
t h e ir m a t h e m a t ic s t h e y s a y th a t 1 0 0 a n d – fo r R 8 5 0 . 0 0 a n d t i m e s t h o s e
3 6 u n i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 6 0 0 0 is it ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 3 6 0 0 0 u n i ts i t i s a l m o s t R 3 0 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R 3 0 m i ll io n ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o y o u c a n s u b tr a c t th a t fr o m t h e R 2 5 5
m il li o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y I m u s t ta k e t h a t f ig u r e w i t h a p i n c h o f

salt?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Be careful Chair when it comes to

la w y e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u ld a g r e e w it h y o u .

Ye s o k a y a lr i g h t .

But that

m i g h t g i v e u s a n id e a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t j u s t g iv e s a n id e a C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja an idea.
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e m ig h t h a v e t o r e ly o n o t h e r p e o p le t o
d o t h e c a lc u l a ti o n s b u t fo r n o w w e c a n li v e w i t h t h a t f ig u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC: Mr Dukwana I was just about to move to
d e a l n o w w i t h w h a t y o u a r e c a l li n g t h e h o u s i n g h e is t . N o w e x p l a i n t o
u s b e f o r e y o u e v e n d e a l w it h t h e – t h e f a c ts r e l e v a n t t o it w h y d id y o u

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r e fe r t o i t a s th e h o u s in g h e is t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is a ls o w il l d e m o n s tr a t e C h a i r p e r s o n h o w
p e o p l e w o u ld s te a l r e s o u r c e s m e a n t f o r p o o r p e o p l e a n d d o t h a t w i th
i m p u n it y a n d n o th i n g h a p p e n s . A n d i n t h i s c a s e y o u w il l s e e th a t y o u
h a v e k e y p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n v o lv e d a n d t h e s e p e o p le n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d
t o t h e m a n d a s u s u a l a s i t h a p p e n s th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e d e a l t w i t h a r e
o ffic i a ls w h o w e r e t a k i n g in s t r u c t i o n s f r o m th e – t h e ir h e a d s . A n d y o u
w o u ld f in d t h a t t h e H O D t h e n , th e D D G th e n a n d t h e C F O a n d th e M E C
in t h e D e p a r t m e n t n o th i n g h a p p e n e d to t h e m .
10

B u t a l l o th e r o ff ic ia ls

w h o w o r k in g in t h i s p r o je c t w e r e – I a m s o r r y – w e r e d is c i p l in e d a n d
y o u k n o w a s w e s p e a k [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ].
CHAIRPERSON: Were what?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e y – t h e r e w a s a d i s c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s

s o m e d e d ic a te d o ffic ia ls a n d u n f o r t u n a t e l y a s w e s p e a k m o s t o f th e m
a r e o u ts i d e th e e m p l o y o f g o v e r n m e n t.

A n d t h is w a s o n ly m e a n t

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w h e n t h e A u d it o r G e n e r a l c o m e s y o u j u s t w a n t t o
d e m o n s t r a t e th a t y o u h a v e d o n e s o m e th i n g a b o u t th is a n d i t u s u a l ly
g o e s . I t h a p p e n e d i n t h e Fr e e S t a te w i th 2 3 r o a d s . I f y o u r e m e m b e r
t h e r e w a s a p r o je c t t h a t c o s t a l m o s t – it w a s a b o u t R 6 b i ll io n i n t h e
20

Fr e e S t a t e a n d i t w a s 2 3 r o a d s a n d t h e s a m e w a y s o m e o ff ic ia ls
s u ff e r e d b u t a l l t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e u p th e r e n o th i n g h a p p e n e d t o
t h e m . S o t h e s e a r e j u s t a s y o u s a y – a s w e s a y p u t t h e m h e r e . P e o p le
a r e j u s t s te a l i n g – s te a li n g a n d e v e r y t i m e w e p u t t h e p e o p l e i n fr o n t
a n d w e s a y w e w a n t t o s e r v e , w e w a n t t o – w e a r e d o i n g a l l th e s e
t h i n g s fo r t h e p e o p l e b u t w h e n it c o m e s o u t i t is t h e s e p e o p l e th a t

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s t a n d u p a n d a l w a y s y o u k n o w g iv e a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u a r e s e r v a n ts
o f t h e p e o p l e w h e n i n a c t u a l f a c t y o u a r e c r i m i n a ls a n d s t e a l in g m o n e y
fr o m t h e m a n d a l w a y s c r e a t e d t h is i m p r e s s io n t h a t y o u c a r e .

Any

p e r s o n w h o – w h o c a r e s C h a ir p e r s o n w il l n o t h a v e s t o le n R 2 5 5 mi ll i o n
ju s t fo r t h is .

E v e n th e H e a d o f th e D e p a r t m e n t c o u l d h a v e s e e n t h a t

t h is is w r o n g a n d I c a n n o t b e p a r t o f t h is . B u t t h i s p e r s o n – th is t h i n g
h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e p e o p le w e r e g e t t i n g s o m e th i n g .

Yo u c o m e to t h i s

y o u w il l r e a lis e a ls o i t is j u s t a h e i s t , it is s t e a li n g a n d n o t h i n g e l s e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

B u t b e f o r e w e g o in t o m o r e i n to t h e h o u s i n g

h e is t a s y o u c a l l i t . A t s o m e s ta g e y o u ta l k e d a b o u t g o i n g to t h e r e p o r t
t h a t w a s p r o v i d e d b y th e c o m p a n y i n r e g a r d to th e a s b e s t o s p r o j e c t .
There was reference to one page that m ay or may not have covered
w h a t is n e c e s s a r y b u t I th o u g h t I w a n t – I w o u l d a s k t h e q u e s t i o n
w h e t h e r a l l i t s a y s r e a l ly f o r a l l i n t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s is w e a u d i te d p l u s
m i n u s 3 0 0 0 0 0 a n d t h e n o u t o f t h o s e 3 6 0 0 0 h a d a s b e s to s r o o v e s . W e
d i d o u r jo b t h e n w e a r e e n t it l e d t o p a y m e n t .

Wa s it s o m e t h i n g a l o n g

t h o s e li n e s m o r e o r le s s o r is it d i ff ic u l t t o s a y ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a ir w h a t M r D u k w a n a r e a d o n p a g e
4 3 i t is i n f a c t t h e f i n d in g s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s t h e f in d in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e r e p o r t?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u k n o w o f t h e – y e s o f t h e r e p o r t. I t is
t h e fi e ld fi n d i n g s u n le s s y o u w a n t [ in t e r v e n ti o n ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll is th a t th e r e p o r t – t h a t is th e r e p o r t o f w h o ?

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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Of the entity that was appointed.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh the JV?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j a t h a t i s – t h a t i s w h a t I a m – t h a t is w h a t I a m .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Mr Dukwana let us go to page

[i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t s h o u ld n o t h a v e t h e fi n d i n g b e c a u s e it s h o u l d
ju s t m a k e a r e p o r t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

Ye s l e t u s g o to p a g e 3 9 s o t h a t th e s e

is s u e s a r e c l a r i f ie d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i f y o u c a n id e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
S e t tl e m e n t .

I t is t h e Fr e e S t a te D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n

I t is a – t h e r e p o r t F r e e S t a te D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n

S e t tl e m e n t f i n a l a u d i t r e p o r t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

A n d w h o i s th e a u t h o r – w h o is t h e

author of the report?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e r e p o r t is p r e p a r e d b y M r I P M p a m b a n i ,
B l a c k h e a d C o n s u l t in g J V a n d i t p r e p a r e d f o r H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t
20

Fr e e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w b e a r i n g i n m i n d t h e ti m e p e r i o d t h a t
w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h i n – o n p a g e 9 4 p a r a g r a p h 2 y o u d o n o t h a v e to g o
there.
CHAIRPERSON:
me.

I a m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e th is is c o n fu s i n g fo r

W h y i s a r e p o r t t h a t c o m e s fr o m a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r c a r r y i n g t h e

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lo g o o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t g i v i n g t h e i m p r e s s io n a s i f i t is a r e p o r t
p r e p a r e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t f o r s o m e b o d y e ls e , d o – i s th a t s o m e th i n g
y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y a n y t h in g o n – y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o s a y a n y th in g o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e n o r m a ll y i f y o u a r e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r y o u a r e
s u p p o s e d to r e p o r t h o w y o u h a v e d o n e t h e w o r k .

Yo u r r e p o r t s h o u l d

have your own letterheads.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d i t m i g h t b e a d d r e s s e d to t h e c li e n t .

E a r l ie r o n

t h is g a v e m e t h e i m p r e s s i o n a s i f i t w a s a g o v e r n m e n t r e p o r t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t h o u g h t s o C h a ir t h a t i s w h y I w a n t e d
t o t a k e h i m b a c k t o t h is r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w h a v i n g i n m in d th e d u r a t io n th a t w e
h a v e a lr e a d y s p o k e n a b o u t o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s io n s w h a t is t h e d a t e
of this report?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 1 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 .

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o th a t is w h a t y o u a r e c o n v e y i n g t o t h e
C h a ir t h a t w it h in a v e r y s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e th e y w e r e a b l e t o p r o d u c e
t h is r e p o r t a n d b e p a i d th e m o n i e s t h a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : R e m e m b e r C h a i r p e r s o n t h e l e t t e r a p p o i n ti n g
them was dated the 2nd.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a y – it w a s s ig n e d o n t h e 2 n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 y e s .

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i t w a s f o r th e 1 s t J a n u a r y – o f D e c e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e f in a l r e p o r t w a s s u b m it t e d o r

p r e p a r e d o n t h e 1 3 t h Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o i t t e l ls y o u i t is f r o m t h e 1 s t D e c e m b e r t o
t h e 1 s t J a n u a r y w o u l d b e o n e m o n t h a n d t h e n th e 1 s t to t h a t i s a l m o s t
two months.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o b a s ic a ll y t h e y d i d a f iv e p a g e p r o p o s a l

and a two month work.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t is t w o a n d h a l f m o n th s i f y o u …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s t w o .
CHAIRPERSON: If you include the shutdown period.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s a n d th e n – a n d t h e n th e y g o t R 2 5 5

m il li o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h a t y o u w e r e r e a d in g o n p a g e 4 3
y o u h a v e a lr e a d y r e a d it i n t o t h e r e c o r d it is w h a t t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r
t h e m s e l v e s a r e s a y in g i n t h e r e p o r t i t is n o t t h e D e p a r t m e n t th a t is
20

recording that am I correct?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s C h a ir.

S o s u r e ly i t c l a r i fi e s C h a ir

w h a t t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r th e m s e lv e s s a y t h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e a n d y o u
c a n th e n c o r r e l a t e t h a t w i t h w h a t th e y h a v e b e e n p a i d a n d i n l i n e w it h
w h a t Mr D u k w a n a h a s t e s t i fi e d a b o u t t h r o u g h o u t t h e b e t t e r p a r t o f th e

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d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I s e e t h a t o n t h a t p a g e – p a g e 4 3 th e r e i s a

r e fe r e n c e t o p h a s e 2 o f t h e w o r k s a n d I k n o w th a t M r D u k w a n a d i d
before lunch make reference to phase 2.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i t s a y s o p t io n s t o c a t e r f o r r e p a ir s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s it s a y s o p ti o n s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s a y s o p t io n s t o c a t e r f o r r e p a ir s w il l b e d e v e lo p e d
in
10

detail

on

phase

2

of

the

works

however

r e c o m m e n d a t io n s

h i g h l ig h ti n g t h e a d v a n ta g e s a n d d r a w b a c k s o f e a c h o p ti o n i s in d i c a t e d
a s fo ll o w s . A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h i s c o m e s t o w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s

a s k in g t h a t i f i t e x p l a i n s i t a ls o th a t i t w a s j u s t f o r a u d it i n g a n d a ll t h a t .
A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e t h a t o t h e r p r o c e s s o f r e m o v in g t h e m
a n d d o i n g t h a t a n d t h e y h a d o p t i o n s . A n d w h a t t h is m e a n s t h e s t e a li n g
w a s g o i n g t o c o n ti n u e . I s u p p o s e h a d t h e d e a t h o f M r M p a m b a n i d i d n o t
h a p p e n a n d y o u c o u l d s e e i f y o u c h e c k t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y th a t w e r e
20

n o w e a r m a r k e d t o b e u s e d f o r t h e r e r o o fi n g a n d e v e r y t h in g a n d t h e
o p t io n s t h a t a r e t h e r e w e t a lk i n g h e r e a lo t o f m o n e y. Yo u t a lk i n g a b o u t
R 3 . 6 b ill i o n a n d t h i s w a s p o i n te d t h e r e . F o r t h a t th e f ir s t o p ti o n w o u l d
h a v e b e e n R 3 . 8 b i ll io n a n d t h e s e c o n d o p t io n R 3 . 7 b ill i o n a n d th a t w a s
g o i n g t o b e th e [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a r e y o u r e a d i n g t h o s e f i g u r e s fr o m ?

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : P a g e 8 4 C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O f t h a t r e p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o I a m j u s t s a y in g th is w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t
w a s g o i n g to c o n ti n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o i t w a s t h e – t h a t a n d o n c e y o u h a v e d e a l t
w i t h th e id e n t i fi c a t io n o f s u c h h o u s e s t h e fo c u s n o w o f t h e n u m b e r
10

t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e s o m e t h i n g a n d r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e y
s a i d t h e y h a d t h r e e in t h e i r r e p o r t i f y o u g o t o 4 3 y o u s a i d – in t h e
r e p o r t I th i n k i t i s 4 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja 43.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e y s a i d t h e 3 6 u n i ts – 3 6 0 0 0 u n i ts a n d

t h e n i t w a s n o t g o i n g o u t a t t h e r a t e d e m o l is h i n g e x is t in g b u il d in g a n d
d is p o s e r u b b l e t h e a m o u n t t h e r e a n d e v e r y t h in g . A n d th e t o t a l p r o j e c t
a s th e y s a y w i th t h e o p ti o n s th a t a r e t h e r e is R 3 . 7 a n d th e n R 3 . 8
b i ll io n . T h a t i f – i f t h e p r o je c t w e r e to c o n t in u e t h i s i s t h e a m o u n t o f
m o n e y t h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e s p e n t to r e m o v e t h e s e a s b e s t o s r o o v e s a n d
20

r e p l a c e th e m w i th e it h e r t h e I B R s h e e t r o o f o r s o m e t h i n g e ls e th a t – o r
t h e til e r o o f .

S o w h a t i t e x p l a i n s is th a t t h e y d id n o t d o t h a t w o r k

b e c a u s e i t n e e d e d t o b e a p p r o v e d f ir s t a n d th e n g iv e n a g o a h e a d .
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a n e e d f o r

t h is ty p e o f p r o j e c t i n r e s p e c t o f h o u s in g u n i ts t h a t h a d a s b e s t o s r o o v e s
y o u h a v e c o m e a c r o s s n o t h i n g t h a t j u s ti f ie s w h y i t w o u l d n o t b e – i t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h a c o m p e ti ti v e t e n d e r p r o c e s s , is t h a t
r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

J a th e y h a v e c o m e – th e r e is n o t h i n g

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e i s n o th in g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e r e is n o t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

D o e s t h a t c l a r i f y C h a ir t h e i n it i a l

e n q u ir i e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: YEs.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Can we now move onto – you have now
e x p l a i n e d t o t h e C h a ir a s t o w h y y o u r e fe r r e d t o i t a s t h e H o u s i n g
H e is t .

C a n y o u p r e f a c e y o u k n o w th is s e s s io n o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y b y

g iv i n g u s a b r i e f s y n o p s is o f r e le v a n t m a t e r i a l s fa c t s y o u k n o w g iv i n g
r is e t o w h a t r e a ll y tr a n s p ir e d i n th is H o u s i n g H e is t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n 2 0 1 0 C h a i r p e r s o n t h e M i n i s t e r o f H o u s i n g
a t t h e t i m e w a s M r To k y o S e x w a l e .
20

A n d h e – t h e r e w a s a d e c is io n

t a k e n t h a t a n y p r o v in c e t h a t w a s n o t m o v in g i n t e r m s o f b u i ld in g h o u s e s
b e c a u s e p e o p l e w e r e tir e d in fa c t e v e n i n P a r li a m e n t t h e P a r li a m e n t
w a s t ir e d o f d e p a r t m e n t s t h a t w e r e n o t s p e n d in g t h e ir a l lo c a t e d a m o u n t
o f m o n e y a n d t h e n e v e r y ti m e r o ll o v e r s a n d r o l l o v e r s .

So then the

d e p a r t m e n t a n d th e – a n d N d a d a To k y o S e x w a l e d e c i d e d t h a t a n y – if
t h e y C h a ir – i f t h e y fi n d t h a t a d e p a r t m e n t – a Pr o v i n c e is n o t

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d e li v e r i n g a c c o r d i n g ly t h e y w il l th e n ta k e w h a te v e r th a t i s a ll o c a te d
w h a t t h e y fe e l s h o u ld b e t a k e n a n d g iv e t h e – w h a t t h e y h a v e ta k e n
fr o m th is p r o v i n c e g iv e t o t h e p r o v in c e t h a t is m o v in g s o t h a t h o u s e s
a r e b u il t i n s t e a d o f w a i t in g f o r t h i s a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n s .

So during

t h a t t i m e th e r e w a s a n o t ic e t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t m o n i e s fr o m th e F r e e
S t a te b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e th is I th i n k i t w a s a l m o s t in D e c e m b e r t h e
Fr e e S t a t e t h e ir s p e n d in g w a s v e r y l o w in te r ms o f h o u s e s .

And it

c o u l d b e e x p la i n e d C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s n o t t h e ti m e w h e n a f te r th e
e l e c ti o n s 2 0 0 9 a n d y o u g e t ti n g i n t o th e n e w e r a . A n d in th is c a s e y o u
10

w i ll f in d a n e w a d m in is tr a ti o n , a n e w Pr e m i e r a n d t h e r e w e r e c o n tr a c ts
t h a t w e r e th e r e a n d y o u w o u ld t h i n k th a t g o v e r n m e n t o p e r a ti n g a s
g o v e r n m e n t i t w a s n o t a n y o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t it w a s s ti ll t h e A N C
g o v e r n m e n t . A n d th e p e r s o n w h o w a s a n M E C a t t h e t i m e o f h o u s i n g
w a s a ls o a M E C m e m b e r – A N C m e m b e r. S o th e c o m m o n s e n s e is y o u
t a k e t h e w o r k th a t is t h e r e , y o u c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e w o r k . B u t i t w a s n o t
t o b e . W h a t h a p p e n e d is th o s e w h o h a d c o n tr a c t s a t t h e t i m e t h e r e w a s
a n e e d t o r e n e g o ti a te t h e s e c o n tr a c t s a n d s o m e o f th e s e p e o p l e it t o o k
a long time for this process to happen.

A n d i t a c t u a l ly c r e a t e d t h i s

b a c k l o g f o r th e d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e th e y c o u l d n o t – th e y c o u l d n o t g o
20

a h e a d a n d b u i l d . R e m e m b e r t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r w o u l d e n d in A p r i l a n d
t h e r e w o u l d b e t h e s e a l lo c a t io n s c o m in g in .

But if by December you

s t il l h a v e n o t d o n e t h e w o r k t h a t y o u n e e d e d to d o i n t e r m s o f
id e n t i fy i n g th e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s a n d s t a r t i n g t h e w o r k th e n i t c r e a t e d a
p r o b le m . S o t h is is th e – w h y t h i s b a c k l o g e x i s te d . If t h e i n c o m e i n t h e
a d m i n is tr a t i o n t h a t c a m e in 2 0 – in 2 0 0 9 h a d c o n t i n u e d w i th e x is ti n g

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p r o j e c ts o r e x is ti n g c o m p a n i e s th a t w e r e a w a r d e d c o n tr a c ts a t th e t i m e
s o t h a t b y t h e ti m e y o u r fi n a n c i a l y e a r c o m e s y o u h a v e g o t m o n e y a n d
y o u c a n w o r k . B u t t h is c r e a te d th a t p r o b l e m . A n d i n D e c e m b e r I th in k
a f e w d a y s b e fo r e [ in t e r v e n t i o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON: I a m sorry just to understand the part soon after the
n e w a d m in is tr a ti o n c a m e i n 2 0 0 9 .

S o y o u s a y c o n tr a c t o r s w h o h a d

a lr e a d y b e e n a w a r d e d c o n tr a c ts b e f o r e t h e e l e c t io n s w h o w e r e c a r r y in g
o n w i t h t h e w o r k t h e y w e r e e ff e c t iv e ly t o l d n o n o w t h i s is a n e w
a d m i n is tr a t i o n w e w il l h a v e to r e n e g o ti a te . Is th a t w h a t y o u s a y i n g ?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h is is w h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h a t w a s b e i n g r e n e g o ti a te d n o w ? W a s t h e
n e w p r ic e s o r w h a t ?

I m e a n t h e r e w a s a c o n tr a c t – th e r e w e r e

c o n tr a c ts i n p l a c e t h a t h a d b e e n s ig n e d b y th e s a m e g o v e r n m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I w a n t t o p o i n t o u t is a s

g o v e r n m e n t a n d h o w y o u w o r k y o u d e v e l o p a ll t h e s y s te m s a n d b y th e
ti m e y o u g o t o t h e n e x t y o u a lr e a d y k n o w h o w m u c h is g o in g t o b e
a l lo c a t e d fo r y o u b e f o r e t h e f i n a n c i a l y e a r b e g i n s .

And with that

k n o w l e d g e – a r m e d w i t h th a t k n o w le d g e y o u p r e p a r e t h e g r o u n d . A n d
in t h is c a s e y o u a d v e r t is e , y o u d o t h a t . Yo u d o n o t a d v e r t is e in A p r i l
20

a ft e r y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d m o n e y. S o y o u w ill d o t h a t i n a d v a n c e s o t h a t
b y th e ti m e t h e f i n a n c ia l y e a r b e g i n s a lr e a d y y o u h a v e p e o p le . T h e r e
a r e m a n y b u s i n e s s p e o p le w h o w e r e g i v e n th e s e c o n tr a c ts a n d s o m e
w e r e t o l d t o g iv e b a c k t h e s e c o n tr a c t e t c e t e r a . B e c a u s e p e o p le w a n t e d
a ls o s o m e o f t h e s e b u s in e s s p e o p le w a n t e d t o b e in t h e g o o d b o o k s o f
t h e n e w a d m in is tr a ti o n . S o m e o f t h e m a c c e p te d a n d d i d t h a t i n h o p i n g

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t h a t t h e y w o u ld b e fa v o u r e d a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h e s e a ll o c a ti o n s w e r e
g iv e n b u t i t w a s n o t t o b e .

I t w a s c l e a r – t h i s is s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u

w o u ld w i tn e s s th a t p e o p l e n o r m a lly a s i t h a p p e n s i n m a n y – I d o n o t
k n o w in o t h e r p r o v i n c e s b u t i n o u r p r o v in c e t h a t i s w h a t i s t h e p r o b l e m
t h a t w e s it t in g w i th . T h is a d m i n i s tr a t io n c o m e s y o u a c t u a ll y w a n t y o u r
o w n y o u k n o w y o u h a v e y o u r o w n s ty le , y o u d o th in g s d i ff e r e n t ly. Yo u
d is r e g a r d s o m e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t h a p p e n e d in t h e p a s t a n d th e n y o u
s t a r t s o m e t h in g n e w. A n d t h is is w h a t a c t u a ll y h a s c r e a t e d p r o b le m s i n
t e r m s o f h a v in g s e a m le s s t r a n s i ti o n i n t e r m s o f g o v e r n m e n t .
10

Ta k i n g

in t o c o n s i d e r a t io n i n th e Fr e e S t a t e i t h a s b e e n t h e A N C in g o v e r n m e n t
a n d it h a s b e e n A N C m e m b e r s i n th e s e p o r t f o li o s . S o y o u w o u l d ta k e –
it w i ll b e c o m m o n s e n s e t h a t i f t h a t h a p p e n s a n d t h e n e w M E C c o m e s
t h e r e is n o th in g t h a t y o u n e e d t o t a k e a n d th e n t h e f i n a n c ia l y e a r t h a t
c o m e s y o u w o u ld t h e n i n tr o d u c e w h a t e v e r y o u i n tr o d u c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o y o u d o n o t d is t u r b th e s m o o th r u n n i n g o f
t h e d e p a r t m e n t – o f th e – o f g o v e r n m e n t . B u t i n th is c a s e it w a s l ik e
that and continue afresh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w f a c e d w i t h t h e t h r e a t o f th e m o n e y
h a v i n g b e e n – o r t h r e a t t h a t th e m o n e y m ig h t b e t a k e n y o u k n o w b a c k
t o t h e N a ti o n a l g o v e r n m e n t w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e – t h e M E C Mr M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e a t th e
ti m e c a m e t o a m e e ti n g o f t h e E x e c u t iv e [i n te r v e n ti o n ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Was he MEC for Housing in 2009?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

He was MEC for Housing and you know it

w a s s ti ll [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e n e w a d m i n i s t r a t io n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s S ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e j a .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

A n d I w a s M E C f o r E c o n o m ic

D e v e l o p m e n t a n d To u r is m a t t h e t i m e a n d E n v ir o n m e n t a l A ff a ir s . S o I
s a t i n t h e m e e ti n g w h e r e t h is h a p p e n e d . I n t h a t m e e ti n g it w a s a fe w
d a y s b e f o r e t h e 1 6 t h D e c e m b e r in 2 0 1 0 a n d w i t h t h i s t h r e a t in
10

g o v e r n m e n t t h a t m o n e y w o u l d b e t a k e n a w a y fr o m t h e Fr e e S t a te
b e c a u s e w e w e r e – w e h a d s p e n t a l m o s t l e s s t h a n 1 0 % a t th e t i m e a s I
w a n t e d y o u k n o w A p r il i t i s M a y, J u n e , J u ly s o o n y o u a r e i n D e c e m b e r
a n d y o u o n ly l e f t w i t h J a n u a r y, F e b r u a r y, M a r c h a n d t h e n y o u k n o w s o
r o l l o v e r w a s [i n t e r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e n d o f t h e f in a n c i a l y e a r.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At the end of March ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s a n d n o w y o u g o i n g to h a v e a p r o b l e m .

A n d t h e n f o r y o u t o d e a l w i th t h a t th e M E C g o t i n t o th e m e e ti n g a n d
20

in d i c a t e d r e la t e d t h e w h o l e s t o r y.
CHAIRPERSON: In December 2010 now?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d s a i d th a t w e s h o u l d n o t b e w o r r ie d

b e c a u s e th e y – th e y h a v e a p l a n a n d h e w a s g o in g to – h e i s n o t g o i n g

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t o t a k e a n y h o li d a y h e w a s g o i n g to w o r k t h r o u g h o u t .

A n d th a t o n e

p ic k e d th a t u p i m m e d ia t e l y a n d t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t o n e a s k e d w a s
c o n s i d e r in g t h a t t h e 1 5 t h – t h e 1 6 t h D e c e m b e r a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r c o u l d
b e t w o d a y s o r s o o f th a t m e e ti n g w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o d o
w h e n c o n t r a c t o r s w o u l d h a v e b e e n c lo s e d b y th a t ti m e ? T h e n h e s a i d ,
n o w e a r e g o i n g to w o r k th r o u g h o u t th e h o li d a y s a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t
no money goes.
with.

S o t h i s i s th e c r e a ti o n o f th is fi a s c o t h a t w e s i t ti n g

And we – we went with that understanding and you know you

c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w th a t w a s g o i n g t o b e p o s s i b l e . B u t w h e n w e
10

c a m e b a c k [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s h e s a y i n g t h i s a t a m e e ti n g o f t h e e x e c u t iv e

c o u n c i l o f th e p r o v i n c e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t ; y o u a r e c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: In – on the 15th December 2010?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o it w a s in D e c e m b e r I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r

the date.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d a te ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t i t w a s in D e c e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d th e f a c t w h a t I r e m e m b e r is t h e q u e s ti o n
w a s ; c o n s i d e r i n g t h a t w e a r e a f e w d a y s b e fo r e th e 1 6 t h D e c e m b e r w h a t
is it t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o d o w h e n c o n t r a c t o r s a r e c l o s in g o n t h e 1 6 t h
D e c e m b e r ? A n d a ll th a t h e s a id w a s th a t h e – h e w i ll n o t p e r s o n a ll y –
h e w i ll b e o v e r s e e r i n t h i s p r o c e s s .
t h e y w i ll w o r k o n t h is .

H e w o u ld n o t g o o n h o li d a y a n d

W h e n w e c a m e b a c k ; w h e n w e r e o p e n e d th e

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r e p o r t t h a t h e g a v e w a s – w e h a v e m a n a g e d t o m o v e I t h i n k a t t h e ti m e
he was saying we have managed to move to almost 66% or so of the
s p e n d in g o f t h e b u d g e t a n d s o m e o f o u r c o l le a g u e s w e r e i m p r e s s e d b u t
there were others who were not impressed in terms of what could have
happened?

T h e q u e s t io n w a s t h e n , is th is – th is 6 6 % o r s o a r e y o u

t a lk in g a b o u t m o n e y a c tu a lly s p e n t in b u il d in g h o u s e s ? A n d t h e a n s w e r
w a s y e s w e h a v e b u i l t h o u s e s , w e h a v e s o r te d t h e m a t t e r o u t .

But it

c a m e l a t e r a s y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t w a s m o n e y p a i d to i m p l e m e n t i n g – t o
s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s ’ e t c e t e r a w i th o u t t h e m d o i n g a n y j o b a n d i t c o s t t h e
10

p r o v i n c e a lo t o f m o n e y a n d m a n y o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
g e t th o s e h o u s e s c o u l d n o t g e t t h o s e h o u s e s . A n d y o u w i ll s e e l a t e r
e v e n a t th e – w h e n th e H e a d – t h e c u r r e n t H e a d o f th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d
d e p o s in g h is s t a t e m e n t t o – h i s a ff id a v i t i n – in t h e c o u r t a p p l ic a ti o n t o
d e c l a r e t o n u ll i fy t h e s e c o n tr a c ts a n d r e fe r r i n g to i t a s a c o r r u p t
s c h e m e e n g in e e r e d i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t is h o w h e u s e d t h e t e r m s
t h a t h e u s e d t h e n . I m a y n o t b e q u o ti n g h i m v e r b a t i m b u t it is i n t h a t .
A n d a ls o a g r e e in g a n d c o n fi r m in g t h a t a l m o s t m o r e t h a n R 5 0 0 m il li o n
w a s l o s t i n t h is a n d th e n – th e h o u s e s a n d t h e n u m b e r o f u n i t s o f
h o u s e s t h a t w e r e n o t b u il t .

20

S o in e s s e n c e y o u c o u l d s e e t h a t s o m e

p e o p l e w e r e g i v e n s o m e m o n e y a n d s o m e i n th e p r o c e s s s o m e w e r e
in v o lv e d i n t h e c a r a c c i d e n t a n d d i e d a n d n o t h i n g w a s d o n e i n te r ms o f
g e t t in g t h e m o n e y b a c k a n d t h e r e w e r e s o m e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w i ll ju s t
s a y w e d i d w h a t [ in d is ti n c t ] t o d o a n d t h e n t h e r e w il l b e s e r v i c e
p r o v i d e r s w h o w o u ld ju s t c h o w e d t h e m o n e y t h a t t h e r e i s n o t h i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o t h e D e p a r t m e n t – t h is is th e l o n g a n d

s h o r t o f w h a t th is i s b u t w e c a n g o p o in t b y p o in t C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s b e f o r e r e fe r r i n g y o u t o s p e c i fic

a n n e x u r e s o r d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u m a y h a v e a l lu d e d t o m a y w e p r e f a c e
that with you reading paragraph 67 into the record on page 21?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ T h r o u g h th a t c o m m i t m e n t b y M r Z w a n e s e r v i c e
p r o v i d e r s s o m e o f w h ic h h a d n o e x p e r tis e in b u i l d i n g
o f h o u s e s le t a lo n e r e g is t e r e d w i th t h e N H R B C w e r e
10

p a i d i n a d v a n c e m il li o n s w i t h o u t c o m p l i a n c e w i t h a n y
p u b lic p r o c u r e m e n t p r e s c r i p ts . T h e r e is a c o u r t c a s e
a b o u t th is m a t t e r t h a t h a s s i n c e b e e n w i t h d r a w n . F o r
ease of reference I annex hereto marked 2DM15 a
c o p y o f t h e c o u r t o r d e r in d ic a t i n g th a t t h e m a t t e r h a s
b e e n w i th d r a w n b y t h e a p p li c a n t . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M a y w e p r o c e e d t o a ls o r e a d

paragraph 68?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ F o r t u n a t e ly m y l e g a l t e a m h a s b e e n a b l e t o o b t a i n
20

t h e a p p l ic a ti o n to r e v ie w a n d s e t a s id e t h e c o r r u p t
s c h e m e c o n c e i v e d b y Mr Z w a n e a n d u n d o u b t e d ly a t
t h e b e h e s t o f Mr M a g a s h u le . I n t h e s a id a p p lic a ti o n
t h e H O D o f t h e H u m a n S e t t le m e n t i n th e Fr e e S t a te
t h a t i s th e c u r r e n t H O D M r M o k h e s i d e p o s e d t o a
v e r y l e n g t h y a ff id a v i t a n d I a m a d v i s e d I s h o u ld r e a d

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e s a m e in t o th e r e c o r d a s A n n e x u r e 2 D M 1 6 . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M a y I th e n r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 1 2 5 . Ar e

you there?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s I a m .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Is t h is t h e N o ti c e o f R e m o v a l th a t y o u

a l lu d e d t o i n th e p r e v i o u s p a r a g r a p h s t h a t y o u h a v e r e a d in t o t h e
record?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is tr u e t h a t i t i s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d w h a t is t h e d a t e o f t h a t r e m o v a l?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e - t h e d a t e is d a t e d o n 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 9 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ar e y o u a w a r e i f t h is a p p li c a t io n w a s

e v e r p u r s u e d a f t e r th is r e m o v a l ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I h a v e - I h a v e n o t s e e n a n y t h i n g th a t is -

towards that.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w m a y I r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 1 - 2 - 8 ?
Is th is th e a ff i d a v i t t h a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a s b e i n g d e p o s e d t o b y
M r M o k h e s i w h e r e in t h e y s o u g h t t o s e t a s i d e t h i s c o r r u p t s c h e m e a s p e r
your words?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t s ir.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

I a m n o t g o i n g t o p e r m it y o u t o

r e a d a s y o u h a v e r e q u e s te d t h e e n t ir e a ffi d a v i t b u t w h a t w e w il l a t te m p t
t o d o i n o r d e r to p l a c e s o m e o f t h e f a c t s r e le v a n t t o y o u r t e s t i m o n y
b e f o r e - o n r e c o r d is t o d ir e c t y o u t o s o m e o f t h e p o r t i o n s o f t h e
a ffi d a v i t . If I m a y r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 1 - 3 - 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that page please.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 1 - 3 - 0 - 1 3 0 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 1-3-0.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

Yo u

would

see

that

there

is

a

s u b h e a d i n g d e d ic a t e d t o d e a l w i th “ T h e N a tu r e o f th is A p p li c a t io n ” . I f
y o u c a n r e a d t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s i n to - in t o t h e r e c o r d u p u n t il p a r a g r a p h
11 a t l e a s t t h e y w i ll g iv e u s a s e n s e a s to w h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

“ T h e n a tu r e o f t h is a p p lic a ti o n :

t h is a p p l ic a t i o n a r is e s fr o m a s e t o f a g r e e m e n t s
c o n c l u d e d i n l a te 2 0 1 0 a n d e a r ly 2 0 11 b e t w e e n th e
d e p a r t m e n t a n d a n u m b e r o f b u i ld i n g c o n tr a c t o r s
a n d s u p p li e r s o f b u i ld i n g m a t e r i a l t o w h o m I r e fe r
g e n e r a l ly a s t h e c o n tr a c to r s a n d t h e s u p p l ie r s a n d
to

p a y m e n ts

s u p p li e r s .

made
The

by

th e

a g r e e m e n ts

department
are

li s te d

to

the

in

th e

s c h e d u l e a t t a c h e d a s N M 1 t o th is a p p li c a ti o n a n d
Annexure

2

to

the

N o t ic e

of

M o t io n .

The

a g r e e m e n ts r e l a t e to t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f lo w c o s t
20

housing

in

the

Free

State

Pr o v in c e .

The

d e p a r t m e n t r e c e i v e d a la r g e c o n d i t io n a l fu n d i n g
a l lo c a t io n fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y to b u il d lo w
cost housing.

T h e a g r e e m e n ts f o r m e d p a r t o f a

fr a u d u l e n t s c h e m e w h ic h w a s c o n c e i v e d b y t h e
d e p a r t m e n t t o d i s p e r s e v e r y s u b s t a n t ia l s u ms o f

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
m o n e y m a i n l y t o t h e s u p p li e r s i n o r d e r t o a v o i d t h e
f u n d s b e c o m in g a s o c a ll e d u n s p e n t c o n d it i o n a l
a l lo c a t io n a n d t h e r e fo r e r e v e r t i n g t o t h e N a ti o n a l
Revenue Fund.”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h a t i s w h a t th is a c c o r d t o w h a t y o u
h a v e t o l d th e C h a ir ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , a lr ig h t . C a n y o u p r o c e e d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

s ix

orders

“ Th e d e p a r t m e n t t h r o u g h th e M E C

d e c l a r in g

the

agreements

and

the

d e c is i o n s to m a k e p a y m e n ts t o t h e s u p p l i e r s t o b e
u n l a w f u l a n d a c c o r d in g ly v o i d a b in i ti o i n a d d i t io n
o r i n th e a l t e r n a t iv e .

I t s e e k s t h e r e v ie w a n d

s e t ti n g a s i d e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts
o f l e g a li t y o r in t e r m s o f t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e
P r o m o t io n o f A d m i n i s tr a t iv e J u s tic e Ac t N o . 3 o f
2 0 0 0 ( “ PA J A ” ) o r b r o th o f th e d e p a r t m e n t’s d e c is i o n
to conclude the agreement and make the payment.
I n c o n s e q u e n c e i t s e e k s t h e r e v i e w a n d s e t t in g
20

aside or the agreement themselves. There are two
m a jo r g r o u n d s o n w h ic h th e d e p a r t m e n t s e e k s th is
relief.

T h e f ir s t is t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n ts w e r e

c o n c l u d e d a n d th e p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e in b r e a c h
o f p r o c u r e m e n t l a w. ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Huh-uh.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : “ T h e s e c o n d is t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t
a n d p a y m e n ts fo r m p a r t o f a fr a u d u le n t s c h e m e a n d
a r e t a i n te d b y f r a u d . T h e d e p a r t m e n t h a s in s t i tu t e d
s e v e r a l a c t io n p r o c e e d i n g s i n t h is c o u r t a g a i n s t
c o n tr a c to r s a n d s u p p l ie r s w h o r e c e iv e d p a y m e n t s
fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r w h o b e n e fi t t e d f r o m s u c h
payments.

I n th e a c t io n s t h e d e p a r t m e n t s e e k s

in t e r a li a t o r e c o v e r w h a t i t p a i d o v e r o r a n
a p p r o p r i a t e p o r ti o n o f w h a t h e p a i d o v e r.
10

The

a c ti o n s a r e l is t e d i n t h e s c h e d u l e a t t a c h e d a s N M 2
t o t h is a p p lic a ti o n a n d A n n e x u r e 4 to t h e N o t ic e o f
M o t io n . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w i f I m a y r e f e r y o u to p a g e 1 3 3
in o r d e r f o r u s t o g e t a s e n s e a s to h o w m a n y r e s p o n d e n ts w e r e
p u r s u e d in t h is a p p li c a t io n t h a t w a s w i t h d r a w n .

If you may read

p a r a g r a p h 1 6 i n t o th e r e c o r d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : “ T h e r e a r e 1 0 6 r e s p o n d e n t s . T h e y
a r e t h e b u i l d i n g c o n t r a c to r s a n d s u p p l i e s o f b u i ld in g
m a t e r i a ls t o w h i c h I h a v e a lr e a d y r e f e r r e d .
20

I

c o n fir m t h a t th is a p p l ic a ti o n a n d t h e a v e r m e n ts
m a d e a r e c o n fi n e d t o t h e r e s p o n d e n t s in s e r t e d i n
a n d a s i d e n t i fi e d in N M 1 a n d N M 2 r e s p e c t i v e l y. ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d y o u r e f e r r e d e a r l i e r o n to th e

h e a d i n g y o u c o in e d i t t o b e “ T h e H o u s in g H e is t ” . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w m a y I r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 1 - 3 - 4 t o s e e
w h e t h e r y o u f in d c o m f o r t in w h a t is s t a t e d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 2 to 2 3 .5 .
I f y o u c a n r e a d s a m e i n to t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
said

“The department scheme:

t h a t t h is

a p p li c a t io n r e l a t e s

to

I have

a set of

a g r e e m e n ts w h ic h t h e d e p a r t m e n t c o n c l u d e d i n l a te
2 0 1 0 a n d e a r ly 2 0 11 w it h c o n t r a c t o r s a n d s u p p li e r s .
I h a v e a ls o s a i d t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t s fo r m p a r t o f a
fr a u d u l e n t s c h e m e c o n c e iv e d b y th e d e p a r t m e n t to
10

p a y o u t f u n d s fr o m i ts c o n d i t io n a l f u n d in g a l lo c a t io n
in o r d e r t o a v o i d t h e fu n d s b e c o m e a n u n s p e n t
c o n d i ti o n a l a ll o c a ti o n a n d r e v e r t in g t o t h e N a t i o n a l
R e v e n u e Fu n d .

I t i s c o n v e n ie n t t o d e s c r i b e t h e

d e p a r t m e n t’s s c h e m e u p fr o n t .
were:

It s m a j o r f e a tu r e s

o n e , th e d e p a r t m e n t c o n c lu d e d s o m e 1 2 5

written

building

A c c u m u l a ti v e ly
c o n tr a c to r s

c o n tr a c t s
in

te r ms

were

w i th
of

a p p o in t e d

c o n tr a c to r s .

these

c o n tr a c ts

to

c o n s tr u c t

a p p r o x i m a te ly 1 4 7 6 9 lo w c o s t h o u s e s in s ix d is tr ic t
20

m u n i c i p a li t ie s a n d t o w n s a c r o s s th e Fr e e S t a te .
T h e t o t a l v a lu e o f t h e b u il d i n g c o n tr a c t w a s v a r ie d
and was based on an average of R72 417 per unit
o r p e r h o u s e . T h e b u il d i n g c o n tr a c ts p r o v id e d t h a t
the

c o n tr a c t o r s

were

obliged

to

s u p p ly

the

n e c e s s a r y m a t e r i a ls fo r t h e ir c o n s tr u c ti o n w o r k .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
T h e v a l u e o f t h e b u il d i n g c o n tr a c t t h u s in c lu d e d t h e
c o s t o f m a te r i a ls .

The department also concluded

s o m e 1 2 0 w r i t te n t r i p a r t i te s u p p ly a g r e e m e n t s w i t h
c o n tr a c to r s … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 - 1 - 2 h e y ? 11 2 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 11 2 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 1 - 1 - 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h , I m ig h t h a v e m is u n d e r s to o d . I th o u g h t y o u s a id

120.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o 11 2 C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 2 o k a y, a l r i g h t . Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“ T h e d e p a r t m e n t a ls o c o n c l u d e d

s o m e 11 2 w r i t te n tr ip a r ti t e s u p p ly a g r e e m e n t s w i th
c o n tr a c to r s a n d b u il d in g m a te r i a l s u p p li e r s .

Th e

m a t e r i a l t e r m o f t h e s e s u p p ly a g r e e m e n ts w a s t h a t
the

department

m a t e r i a ls
c o n tr a c to r s .
20

w h ic h

w i ll

pay

the

s u p p li e r s
s u p p li e r s

for

b u il d in g

s u p p l ie d

to

S u p p li e r s ’ c l a i m s f o r p a y m e n t w e r e

r e q u ir e d t o b e s u p p o r t e d b y o n e , a n i n v o ic e in
r e s p e c t o f m a t e r ia l s u p p l i e d b y t h e s u p p l ie r t o th e
c o n tr a c t a n d t w o , a c e r t if ic a te fr o m th e c o n tr a c to r
c o n fir m i n g r e c e i p t o f th e m a t e r i a ls i n v o i c e .

The

d e p a r t m e n t a l s o a g r e e d to t h e c e s s i o n b y t h e
c o n tr a c to r s t o t h e s u p p li e r s o f c l a i m s w h ic h t h e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
c o n tr a c to r s

purported

to

have

a g a in s t

th e

d e p a r t m e n t.

T h e c e s s i o n s w e r e d o c u m e n te d a n d

w r i t t e n m a t e r i a l s u p p ly c e s s i o n a g r e e m e n ts s i g n e d
b y t h e c o n t r a c to r s , s u p p li e r s a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
T h e c e s s i o n a g r e e m e n t s c o n ta in e d in s t r u c t io n s f r o m
t h e c o n tr a c t o r s t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y t h e c e d e d
c la i m s t o th e s u p p li e r s .

The departm ent made

p a y m e n t s t o th e s u p p li e r s .

The total value of the

p a y m e n t s m a d e t o th e 2 1 s u p p li e r s o v e r t h e p e r io d
10

2 0 0 9 /2 0 11 e x c e e d s R 5 0 0 m i lli o n .

The payments

w e r e m a d e f r o m t h e c o n d it i o n a l a l l o c a ti o n w h ic h th e
d e p a r t m e n t r e c e i v e d f r o m t h e N a t io n a l R e v e n u e
F u n d v i a t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t .

There was no

la w fu l c o s t fo r t h e p a y m e n t . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

I f I m a y s t o p y o u th e r e .

S o th e

a m o u n t r e f le c te d o n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 . 4 a c c o r d s w i th w h a t y o u h a v e a ls o
r e fe r r e d t o w h e n y o u t e s t i fi e d e a r l i e r t o - t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h is is t h e a m o u n t w h ic h c o u l d h a v e
20

b e e n e x p a n d e d o r b e in g p a id w i t h i n th a t s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e w h e n y o u
s a y th a t i t w a s a lr e a d y i n D e c e m b e r - t w o d a y s b e fo r e th e 1 6 t h a n d u p
u n t il t h e ti m e w h e n y o u c a m e b a c k ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w m a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 1 - 3 - 6 a n d

t h e n w e c a n s k ip a l l t h e s e o t h e r p a r a g r a p h s a n d c o n c e n tr a t e o n

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
p a r a g r a p h 2 4 . Ta k e u s t h r o u g h p a r a g r a p h 2 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h a t Mr M o k o e n a a s s u m i n g th a t th is R 5 0 0

m il li o n t h a t is r e f e r r e d t o i n r e g a r d t o th is p r o j e c t y o u c a ll “ H e i s t ” w a s
p a i d f o r n o v a l u e f o r m o n e y e ff e c t iv e l y. M a y b e n o t e v e n a s s u m i n g t h a t.
A s s u m in g t h a t t h e r e w a s ju s t c o r r u p t io n h e r e .

I f y o u a d d th e a m o u n t

t h a t w a s m e n ti o n e d i n r e g a r d t o t h e a s b e s t o s p r o je c t t h is - a d d t h i s 5 0 0
m il li o n t o t h a t o n e y o u - y o u d o n o t r e a c h a b il li o n a s y e t o r d o y o u ?
T h a t o t h e r - o n - o n th a t o th e r o n e t h e a m o u n t - t h e p r o j e c t w a s a b o u t
two …
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 2 5 5 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 5 5 m il li o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

There was some - there was a figure that we

m e n ti o n e d a n d I w a s s a y in g th a t a lr e a d y y o u a r e l o o k i n g a t 7 0 0 - a n d
something …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M il li o n , is i t n o t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Remember you - you added …
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f o u r - t h e 4 0 0 0 o r w a s - w a s I g e t ti n g c o n f u s e d .
T h e r e w a s a ti m e w h e n I w a s ta lk i n g a b o u t 7 0 0 - a n d s o m e t h i n g m il li o n
…
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( In d i s ti n c t) .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t o f c o u r s e th e t o t a l a m o u n t fo r t h e v a l u e o f t h e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
project was 2-5-5.

M a y b e I g o t c o n fu s e d a n d m e n t i o n e d 7 0 0 - a n d

s o m e t h i n g . S o t h e r e is n o 7 0 0 - a n d s o m e t h in g m il li o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Dukwana do you want to answer?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I t h i n k I w ill a l lo w th e c o u n s e l fo r M r D u k w a n a . I
think …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o C h a ir l e t m e a s s is t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, Mr - yes, yes.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : 7 0 0 0 0 0 th a t t h e C h a ir w a s m a k i n g r e fe r e n c e
10

to …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

H a s to d o w i t h o n e r o u s r e q u e s t s t h a t w e r e

d ir e c t e d a t th e Pr e m i e r ’s O ff ic e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th e C h a i r p e r s o n w a s s a y i n g i t is 4 7 0

t h a t h a s t o b e p a i d . 3 0 0 0 0 t o a n S R C Pr e s id e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s 5 0 0 0 0 0 . T h e r e is 2 0 0 - 2 5 5 …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s p a i d t o a tr a v e l a g e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Bl a h , b la h , b l a h . S o t h o s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I t w a s n o t m il li o n s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . T h o s e , j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e a r e s e p a r a te .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h o s e a r e s e p a r a te fr o m t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Fr o m th is o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w I u n d e r s t a n d . S o - b u t i f w e a d d t h i s 5 0 0 m i ll io n
t o t h a t 2 5 5 m il li o n w h e r e o n e is l o o k i n g a t - o v e r 7 0 0 mi ll i o n i n t e r m s o f
t h e t w o p r o j e c ts .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

I h a v e s t a y e d d e li b e r a t e ly fr o m t h e

c o m p u ta t io n o f t h e f u n d s w i t h th e c a u ti o n th a t I g a v e e a r li e r o n
M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Dukwana …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w a s r e f e r r in g y o u t o p a g e 1 - 3 - w a s i t
1-3-4?
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : S ix .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

1-3-6

w it h

p a r ti c u l a r r e f e r e n c e

p a r a g r a p h 2 4 . Ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : P a r a g r a p h 2 4 :
“The

reason

the

s c h e m e w a s th is :
November 2010

department

i m p l e m e n te d

th e

i n l a te O c t o b e r th a t is o n e a n d
th e

department

was

s e v e r e ly

c r i ti c is e d b y t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e i t
had

very

s i g n i fi c a n tl y

underspent

Page 179 of 278

fr o m

i ts

to

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t a l l o c a t i o n .

H a l f w a y th r o u g h t h e

fi n a n c i a l y e a r i t h a d s p e n t o n ly 1 0 p e r c e n t o f w h a t i t
w a s m e a n t t o h a v e s p e n t . Th e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t
a n d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y t h r e a te n e d t h a t th e i r u n s p e n t
a l lo c a t io n w o u l d r e v e r t to t h e N a t io n a l R e v e n u e
F u n d to b e r e a ll o c a t e d to p r o v i n c e s w i t h b e t t e r
s p e n d in g r e c o r d s .

I n t h e fa c e o f t h a t t h r e a t t h e

department proceeded to implement the scheme
d is p e r s i n g fu n d s t o th e t u n e o f m o r e t h a n 5 0 0
10

m il li o n fr o m i ts c o n d i ti o n a l a ll o c a t io n o v e r t h e 2 0 0 9
t o 2 0 11 w i t h n o l a w fu l c a u s e f o r th e p a y m e n t m a d e . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . L e t u s th e n s k ip t h e r e s t a n d g o to
p a g e 1 - 3 - 8 . W h a t a p p e a r s to b e r e l e v a n t t o s k e tc h - t h e r e le v a n t y o u
k n o w f a c ts it is p a r a g r a p h s 2 7 a n d 2 8 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“ I s u b m i t th a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t

s c h e m e w a s a fr a u d o n t h e N a t io n a l G o v e r n m e n t
s p e c i f ic a l ly o n t h e fis c u s . I t w a s a l s o fr a u d o n th e
p u b lic o n a ll w h o e x p e c t s ta t e f u n d s t o b e s p e n t
p r o p e r ly i n c lu d i n g o n i m p r o v i n g t h e s t a n d a r d o f
20

liv in g o f t h e p o o r o n th o s e in t h e Fr e e S t a te a n d i n
o th e r p r o v i n c e s w it h a n e x p e c t a t i o n o f r e c e i v i n g
s t a te f u n d e d h o u s i n g a n d a ll t a x p a y e r s .

I have

d e s c r ib e d a b o v e t h e fr a u d u l e n t a s p e c t s o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t’s s c h e m e .

I t is i m p o r t a n t t o p o i n t o u t

t h a t th e c o n tr a c ts w e r e a l l - w e r e a l s o u n l a w fu l

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
b e c a u s e t h e d e p a r t m e n t d i d n o t f o l l o w a n y la w f u l
p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s b e fo r e c o n c lu d in g th e m . T h i s
is a n d i n i ts e l f a g r o u n d o n w h i c h t h e c o n tr a c ts
should be declared void.”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d s o i n o r d e r fo r u s t o a p p r e c ia t e
w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y v a l u e f o r th is m o n e y th a t w a s p a i d I k n o w th a t
y o u h a v e t o u c h e d o n th a t b u t i t m a y b e a ls o p r u d e n t f o r u s t o g o to p a g e
1 - 4 - 7 a n d t a k e u s t h r o u g h fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 6 4 t o 6 6 . P a g e 1 - 4 - 7 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 1-4-7?
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Fr o m 6 4 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Fr o m 6 4 to 6 6 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

“At

th e

ti m e

however

th e

m e m o r a n d u m c o n t e m p la t e s a d v a n c e p a y m e n ts to
m a t e r i a l s u p p l ie r s .

W i th a d v a n c e p a y m e n ts t o b e

r e g u la t e d v i a s p e c i fic a g r e e m e n t .
one

of

the

d e p a r t m e n t’s
department
20

features

a p p a r e n tl y

tu r n a r o u n d
w il l

where

For an example
e n f o r c in g

s tr a t e g y
necessary

is

that
e n te r

the
the
in t o

a g r e e m e n t w i th m a t e r ia l s u p p l i e r s a n d p r o v id e t h e m
with an advance payment.
b u ll e t p o in t .

T h a t i s p a r a g r a p h 1 .5

Paragraph 3.6 of the me morandum

s t a te s t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t m a y p r o v id e a n a d v a n c e
p a y m e n t t o t h e m a t e r i a l s u p p li e r a n d i n s u c h e v e n t
a s e p a r a te a g r e e m e n t s h a l l b e e n t e r e d i n t o b y th e

Page 181 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
department

and

th e

s e r v ic e

p r o v i d e r.

The

d e p a r t m e n t’s d e c is i o n s w e r e i n c l e a r b r e a c h o f t h e
a d v ic e g i v e n t o i t b y th e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t v i a
( in d is ti n c t)

and

the

t e c h n ic a l

m e e t in g s .

The

d e p a r t m e n t h a d b e e n to ld t h a t i ts e x p e n d i t u r e
recovery plan was not acceptable and that it should
n o t i m p le m e n t i t . I t w a s a ls o b e e n t o l d t h a t p a y i n g
s u p p li e r s

w it h o u t

a

s u p p ly

s e r v ic e

s u p p li e d

m a t e r i a ls w a s u n la w f u l . A s I s e t o u t i n m o r e d e t a il
10

b e l o w th e d e p a r t m e n t p r o c e e d e d t o m a k e p a y m e n t s
t o s u p p li e r s w i t h o u t t h e s u p p l ie r s h a v in g s u p p l i e d
m a t e r i a l. T h a t i s i t m a d e p a y m e n ts i n a d v a n c e . N o
w r i t t e n a g r e e m e n ts w e r e c o n c l u d e d g o v e r n in g t h o s e
payments.
proper

T h e d e p a r t m e n t d i d n o t f o l lo w a n y

procurement

process

to

id e n ti fy

s u p p li e r s t o w h ic h i t m a d e p a y m e n ts .

th e

The total

v a l u e o f t h e p a y m e n ts m a d e is n e a r ly o n e b i ll io n . ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h i s is v e r y s e r io u s M r D u k w a n a …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ve r y, v e r y.
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d u p u n ti l n o w y o u d o n o t k n o w t h e

r e a s o n w h y th is a p p l ic a ti o n w a s n o t p r o c e e d e d w i t h ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
s p e c u l a te C h a ir.

I d o n o t k n o w t h e r e a s o n s b u t I c a n o n ly

A s I s a id e a r li e r o n c e y o u m a k e c o r r u p t io n t o b e

n o r m a l i n s o c i e ty t h in g s l ik e t h i s h a p p e n a n d i n t h i s c a s e I a m s i t t in g
C h a ir p e r s o n h a v i n g w o r k e d i n G o v e r n m e n t a n d e s p e c i a lly in th e Fr e e

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S t a te . T h e r e is n o o ff ic ia l a n d I r e p e a t t h e r e is n o o ffic i a l th a t w il l b e
t h is b r a v e to d i s r e g a r d th e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t’s d ir e c ti v e e v e n w h e n i t
- e v e n t h e Tr e a s u r y - w h e n i t w a s y o u d o n o t d o t h a t .
Yo u k n o w t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s th a t w i ll fo l lo w b u t th is c o u l d
o n ly - t h e b r a v e r y t h a t t h is p e o p l e g o t f o r t h e m to b e d o in g th a t is
b e c a u s e o f th e b a c k in g t h a t t h e y h a v e a n d t h a t b a c k i n g w o u l d b e
c o m i n g fr o m t h e P r e m i e r a s w e l l a s th e M E C a n d I a m s a y i n g t h i s
C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e c o n tr a c t s w e r e s i g n e d i n D e c e m b e r a n d i n
J a n u a r y.
10

I t is t h e p e r i o d t h a t th e M E C i n d ic a te d t h a t h e w a s g o i n g to
b e th e r e o v e r s e e in g t h e p r o c e s s . S o w h a t i t m e a n s is h e k n e w e x a c t ly
w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a n d h e c o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e t h a t w i t h o u t c o n s u lt i n g
- a n d I a m t a lk i n g fr o m e x p e r i e n c e .

H e w o u l d n o t d o th a t w i th o u t

c o n s u l t in g th e Pr e m i e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o i n t h is c a s e t h e u n f o r tu n a te th i n g th a t

h a p p e n e d w a s w h e n p e o p l e r e a l is e d th a t t h e s e th in g s w e r e s o s e r i o u s
t h e p o o r o ff ic i a l s w e r e e s p e c i a l ly t h e ju n io r - s o m e l e v e ls t h e r e s u ff e r e d
b e c a u s e o f t h is .
20

They push under the bush and when you expect

le a d e r s t o t a k e r e s p o n s i b il i ty l ik e t h e M E C w h o s a id w e a r e g o i n g t o
m a k e a p la n .
Yo u w o u ld e x p e c t t h e M E C w i ll b e b r a v e e n o u g h t o s a y t h is is
w h a t I - I a d v i c e t h e s e p e o p l e t o d o a n d t a k e t h e b l a m e i n s t e a d o f a ll
t h e t i m e h a v in g o ff ic i a ls t a k in g t h e b l a m e .

S o t h is a s I s ta t e d

d e m o n s t r a t e s c l e a r ly C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e r e is a l w a y s d is r e g a r d o f th is

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b u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g h e r e w h y i t w a s t a k e n w h a t t h e - t h e - w h a t is
b e i n g s a id s ir b y Ta t a M o e k w e ( ? ) .
T h e q u e s t i o n th a t I a m a s k e d is t h a t th e - t h e o n l y r e a s o n
t h a t I c a n d e d u c e fr o m t h i s is t h a t y o u - y o u n e e d to d e m o n s t r a t e
C h a ir p e r s o n t o t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l th a t w e s u s p e n d e d p e o p l e . W e a r e
g o i n g t o c o u r t t o g e t t h is n u ll i fi e d a n d t h e n w e w i ll g e t o u r - o u r m o n e y
b a c k a n d y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t s o m e th in g th a t h a p p e n e d w a y b a c k in
2 0 1 0 a n d t h is i s 2 0 1 9 a n d n o t h i n g h a s h a p p e n e d y e t .
S o it d e m o n s tr a te s t h a t t h e - th is w a s v e r y u r g e n t b e c a u s e if
10

y o u s ta y lo n g e r m a n y o f t h e s e p e o p le w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h o a r e
s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s w o u l d - w o u l d n o t b e h a v in g a n y a s s e ts t h a t y o u c a n as a department.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t u s j u s t m a k e s u r e w e g e t e v e r y t h in g in - w e
understand it in proper context.

S o m e t i m e d u r i n g th e f ir s t h a l f o f

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a m e e ti n g o f t h e E x e c u ti v e C o u n c il o f th e P r o v i n c ia l
G o v e r n m e n t t a k e s p l a c e w h ic h y o u a tt e n d e d …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t m e e ti n g is h e l d a g a i n s t th e b a c k d r o p th a t

t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t t le m e n ts h a d o r m a y b e le t m e
20

rephrase that. That meeting took place against the backdrop that there
w a s a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g to s a y t h e l e a s t. L e t u s le a v e o u t th r e a ts a n d s o
on.
There was an understanding on the part of the M EC for
H u m a n S e t t le m e n ts in t h e p r o v i n c e th a t i f m o n e y th a t h a d b e e n
a l lo c a t e d t o h is D e p a r t m e n t fo r H o u s i n g h a d n o t b e e n u s e d - t h a t

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m o n e y - h a d n o t b e e n u s e d b y th e e n d o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r - t h a t
m o n e y w o u l d b e t a k e n a w a y f r o m t h e p r o v i n c e . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d h e d i d n o t w a n t th a t t o h a p p e n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o t a t a l l C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e th e n s a i d a t t h e m e e ti n g o f th e Ex e c u ti v e

C o u n c il w h ic h y o u a t t e n d e d t h a t h e w o u ld n o t g o o n h o li d a y d u r in g th a t
D e c e m b e r h o l id a y a n d t h e y w o u l d m a k e a p l a n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p l a n b e i n g t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e - t h e m o n e y
t h a t h a d b e e n a ll o c a t e d f o r h o u s i n g i n t h e p r o v in c e w o u l d b e u s e d - a ll
o f i t w o u l d b e u s e d if p o s s i b l e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t t h e r e w o u l d b e n o m o n e y ta k e n a w a y fr o m t h e
province?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e i n te n ti o n w a s to a v o i d m o n e y b e in g

t a k e n a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h e i n te n ti o n w a s t o a v o i d t h a t.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o m e o f y o u a t t h e m e e ti n g w e r e c o n c e r n e d h o w
h e w o u ld d o th a t g iv e n t h e s h o r t ti m e l e ft b e f o r e t h e e n d o f t h e
fi n a n c i a l y e a r a n d th e D e c e m b e r b r e a k th a t w a s s u p p o s e d to h a p p e n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e r e w a s n o l o g ic C h a ir p e r s o n i n th e s e n s e
t h a t th e - t h e - A p r il to D e c e m b e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u h a v e o n ly - o n ly s p e n t 1 0 p e r c e n t a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is t h e …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u a r e l e f t w i t h F e b r u a r y, M a r c h a n d t h e n

y o u - y o u r - y o u r fi n a n c i a l y e a r e n d s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e q u e s t io n w a s w h a t is i t t h a t y o u w il l
d o in t h a t s p a c e o f ti m e - a s h o r t s p a c e o f ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a s a t - a s a t t h e t i m e o f t h a t m e e ti n g y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s e - o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t
10

in t h e p r o v i n c e h a d o n ly s p e n t 1 0 p e r c e n t o f i ts b u d g e t f o r h o u s i n g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d th e M E C a t t h e ti m e w h o w a s Mr Z w a n e s a i d
h e w o u ld n o t g o a w a y fo r t h e h o li d a y. T h e y w o u ld m a k e a p l a n t o a v o i d
m o n e y b e in g ta k e n a w a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H e i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e h i m s e l f a n d t h e o ffi c i a l s
w o u ld n o t g o o n h o li d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d n o t g o a w a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e y w il l w o r k a r o u n d th e c lo c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u - d i d y o u a ls o s a y w h e n y o u c a m e b a c k

20

w h ic h I a s s u m e w o u l d b e a f te r - in t h e N e w Ye a r h e m a d e a r e p o r t to
t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l a s t o h o w - w h a t th e y h a d b e e n a b le t o d o ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

We

came

back

l a te

January

or

e a r ly

F e b r u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

When

th e

l e g is la t u r e

Page 186 of 278

opened

and

th e

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
E x e c u t iv e s t a r t e d fu n c t io n in g a n d t h e r e p o r t g iv e n w a s t h a t w e h a v e
m o v e d . W e a t l e a s t - w e a r e s i t ti n g a t 6 6 p e r c e n t o f t h e s p e n d t h a t w e
s h o u l d h a v e m a d e y o u k n o w.

S o t h e q u e s t io n w a s fr o m D e c e m b e r to

J a n u a r y w h a t i t i s th a t y o u d id .

D o y o u b u il d t h e h o u s e s a n d t h e

a n s w e r w a s y e s w e - i t w e n t to - w e d i d - w e w e r e n o t t o l d t h a t t h e - i t
w a s t h is s c h e m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o th e r e w a s a n - a m e e ti n g o f th e E x e c u t iv e
C o u n c il o f t h e P r o v i n c e l a t e i n J a n u a r y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n 2 0 11 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A t w h i c h M r Z w a n e m a d e a r e p o r t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : G a v e a r e p o r t t o th e E x e c u t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e p o r t w a s i n p a r t t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t a s a t t h a t
ti m e h e w a s a b le t o s a y h is d e p a r t m e n t h a d s p e n t a b o u t 6 6 p e r c e n t o f
t h e m o n e y t h a t h a d b e e n a ll o c a t e d f o r h o u s i n g d u r in g t h a t f i n a n c i a l
year?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C o r r e c t a n d h e w a s p r a is e d f o r w o r k i n g h a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s p r a i s e d fo r w o r k i n g h a r d b u t y o u s a y y o u

w e r e n o t to l d a s to w h a t e x a c tly h e a n d h i s d e p a r t m e n t h a d d o n e w it h in
t h is s h o r t p e r io d t o a c h ie v e s u c h a h ig h p e r c e n ta g e o f e x p e n d i t u r e ?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o . H e d i d n o t g iv e t h e d e t a ils .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t t o l d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o , w e w e r e n o t to l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . L e t u s n o w p r o c e e d t o a ls o r e f e r t o
s o m e o f t h e r e l e v a n t fa c ts w h ic h c o r r o b o r a te s w h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y

Page 187 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t e s ti fi e d o n b e f o r e th e C h a ir. Tu r n to p a g e 1 4 9 M r D u k w a n a a n d i f y o u
c a n r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d p a r a g r a p h s 7 2 t o 7 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Before you - you do that I just want to - you - you are
r e a d in g fr o m a n a ffi d a v i t - fr o m t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M r N t h i m o ts e M o k h e s i
w h ic h w a s a p p a r e n tly d e p o s e d t o o n 2 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 t h a t a p p e a r s a t
page 2-0-7 …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e - h e is - h e w a s a t th e ti m e a t l e a s t I d o n o t
k n o w n o w.
10

H e w a s a t t h e ti m e t h e h e a d o f t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t .

Is

t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Mr M o k h e s i ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A r e y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t M o k h e s i ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is - t h i s a ff id a v i t fr o m w h ic h y o u a r e r e a d in g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W a s h e h e a d o f t h is d e p a r t m e n t i n 2 0 1 6 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

20

The head of the department - if I am not

m is t a k e n - w a s Ta t a G i f t M o k o e n a .

I t h in k a t t h e ti m e t h e r e w e r e t w o

d e p a r t m e n ts . Yo u h a d th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s i n g u n d e r o n e M E C - w a s
h o u s i n g a n d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll h e d o e s s a y i n t h e p a r a g r a p h - i n t h e - i n

p a r a g r a p h 1 Mr D u k w a n a …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 1 - 2 - 9 M r C h a ir.

Page 188 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja 1-2-9.

H e d o e s s a y h e is t h e H e a d o f th e F r e e

S t a te D e p a r t m e n t o f H u m a n S e t tl e m e n ts a n d h e i s s a y i n g t h a t a s a t
21 December 2016. So he must have been head of the department at
t h e ti m e - i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A t t h e t i m e h e p r e p a r e d th is , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e t i m e h e p r e p a r e d t h is y e s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t h o u g h t t h e q u e s ti o n w a s …
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M y q u e s ti o n w a s w h e t h e r th is p e r s o n t h a t - w h o s e

a ffi d a v i t y o u a r e r e a d i n g f o r m w a s t h e h e a d t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t b u t i n
2 0 1 6 , D e c e m b e r w h ic h I t h i n k is c o r r e c t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o . I t w o u l d b e - in 2 0 1 0 h e w a s n o t th e -

the head of the department.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . I a m s a y i n g h e w a s - h e w a s th e h e a d o f
department in December 2016 …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h i s d e p a r t m e n t o f w h ic h h e w a s th e h e a d in 2 0 1 6
is t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t i n 2 0 1 0 ?
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 1 4 9 f r o m p a r a g r a p h s 7 2 to 7 4 - i f
you can read that.

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C a n y o u a s k if - i f y o u a ll o w m e j u s t t o - t o
c la r i fy t h is o n - t h a t is p a g e - p a r a g r a p h 7 0 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s , y e s .

T h a t w i ll c l a r i fy t h e c o n c e r n . Yo u r e m e m b e r

I s a id i t w a s r e p o r te d a s 6 6 % , b u t i f y o u c h e c k h e r e t h e d e p a r t m e n t
r e s p o n d e d b y i s s u i n g i ts o w n , i t w a s in r e s p o n s e t o 6 9 , o n t h e 1 8 t h
J a n u a r y 2 0 11 t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t i s s u e d a m e d i a s ta t e m e n t
r e g a r d in g a s h i f ti n g o f f u n d i n g fr o m u n d e r - p e r f o r m i n g p r o v in c e s , t h e
Fr e e S t a t e a n d K w a Zu lu N a ta l t o o th e r p r o v in c e s .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .
A n d th e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t r e s p o n d e d b y

is s u i n g it s o w n m e d i a s ta t e m e n t o n t h e 2 0 t h J a n u a r y p u r p o r ti n g t o s e t
t h e r e c o r d s t r a ig h t .

I t s t a te d a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t

w o u ld s p e n d i ts e n tir e c o n d i t io n a l a l l o c a t i o n b y th e e n d o f t h e f i n a n c ia l
y e a r.

I t s t a te d th e f o ll o w i n g a s o f t o d a t e , 2 0 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 t h e

D e p a r t m e n t h a s s p e n t a t o ta l o f 7 8 % o f t h e c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t f u n d i n g .
B y t h e e n d o f J a n u a r y e x p e n d i tu r e s h o u l d b e a r o u n d 8 5 % .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I see that in paragraph 67 at page 148, according
20

t o th e a ff id a v i t i t s a y s o n 1 2 t h J a n u a r y 2 0 11 t h e N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t
a d v is e d t h e D e p a r t m e n t , t h a t m u s t b e t h e Pr o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t o f
H u m a n S e t tl e m e n ts th a t R 2 6 3 m i ll i o n o f i ts c o n d it i o n a l a l l o c a t i o n w a s t o
b e s t o p p e d a n d w o u l d b e r e a ll o c a te d to o th e r p r o v i n c e s , th a t ’s w h a t
t h e y d id n ’ t w a n t to h a p p e n , t h a t is w h a t M s Z w a n e d i d n ’ t w a n t t o
happen.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h i s i s w h a t th e y s a i d a n d t h e n m e d i a s t a t e m e n t s
f o ll o w e d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Correct.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

149.

B y t h e ti m e t h e s e s t a t e m e n ts w e r e is s u e d

t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a d a lr e a d y t r a n s f e r r e d s e v e r a l h u n d r e d m il li o n s o f
r a n d s fr o m i ts c o n d it i o n a l a ll o c a ti o n t o s u p p li e r s . I t c o n ti n u e d t o m a k e
u n l a w f u l tr a n s f e r s in J a n u a r y, Fe b r u a r y a n d M a r c h 2 0 11 . T h e tr a n s f e r s
10

w e r e m a d e w i t h o u t th e s u p p li e s h a v i n g s u p p li e d m a te r i a l , w i t h o u t
w r i t t e n a g r e e m e n ts in r e s p e c t o f o r r e g u l a t i n g t h e tr a n s fe r s , a n d
w i t h o u t a n y p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s h a v i n g b e e n f o l lo w e d .

The

D e p a r t m e n t m a d e t h e tr a n s f e r fo r th e p u r p o s e o f a v o i d i n g h a v i n g i ts
c o n d i ti o n a l a l lo c a t io n s to p p e d a n d t r a n s f e r r e d t o b e t te r p e r f o r m i n g
p r o v i n c e s . I t m a d e t h e tr a n s fe r s s o th a t i t lo o k e d a s i f t h e c o n d i t io n a l
a l lo c a t io n h a d b e e n s p e n t .

I s u b m i t t h a t th is w a s a fr a u d o n t h e

N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d o n t h e N a ti o n a l G o v e r n m e n t m o r e b r o a d ly a s
w e ll a s o n t h e t a x p a y e r s a n d th e p u b lic g e n e r a ll y.
I w il l r e p e a t t h a t th e u n la w f u l t r a n s f e r s a m o u n t t o m o r e o r l e s s
20

R 6 3 1 m il li o n i n t o t a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u c a n s to p th e r e , j u s t t h e c o n t e x t a g a i n , t h i s is

t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t , t h i s i s t h e h e a d o f th e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t b u t
la t e r, in 2 0 1 6 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

L a te r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : In 2 0 1 6 .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

In 2016.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is m a k in g a n a p p li c a ti o n t o c o u r t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o a ll o f t h e s e th in g s t h a t h e s a y s h e r e m u s t h a v e

b e e n t h i n g s t h a t h e h a s c h e c k e d in th e d e p a r t m e n t t o e s t a b l is h e x a c t ly
w h e n w e r e p a y m e n t s m a d e a n d to w h o m a n d s o o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t a s

f a c tu a l is s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th a t w a s u n d e r o a t h .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Maybe to jump ahead of myself as well,

if y o u t u r n t o p a g e 2 0 8 , s i m p l y to p ig g y - b a c k fr o m t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s
q u e s t io n a n d m a y b e t o a l s o p la c e c o n t e x t a s t o w h e r e w o u l d t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n a ls o b e d e r iv e d fr o m , a r e y o u a b l e t o i d e n ti f y t h i s d o c u m e n t
on page 208.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h i s in t h e H i g h C o u r t o f S o u t h A fr ic a Fr e e

S t a te D i v is i o n B lo e m f o n te i n a n d i n t h e m a tt e r b e t w e e n Th e M e m b e r o f
t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o r p o r a t e G o v e r n a n c e ,
20

H u m a n S e t t le m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s , Fr e e S t a t e a s a n a p p lic a n t
a n d C i n e G r o u p Tr a d in g 8 0 2 C C a n d o n e o f fi v e f u r th e r r e s p o n d e n t s
lis t e d in A n n e x u r e 1 to t h e N o tic e o f M o t i o n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d w h o is t h e d e p o n e n t ?

I t ’s H a b b a r d L o b i t a .

ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o w l e t ’s s e e o n p a g e 2 0 9 a s to w h o is

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
h e , if y o u c a n r e a d p a r a g r a p h o n e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Paragraph one:

“ M r H a b b a r d L o b it a s t a te s t h e f o ll o w i n g :
I am employed by

t h e S p e c i a l In v e s ti g a ti n g U n i t , S I U , a s a

p r o j e c t m a n a g e r s t a t i o n e d a t th e S p e c i a l I n v e s ti g a ti n g U n i t
o ffic e ,

2nd

F l o o r,

Te lk o m

B u i ld i n g ,

Z a s tr o w

S tr e e t ,

Bloemfontein.”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , d o I t a k e i t t h a t a s a t t h e t i m e t h e

S I U w a s a ls o i n v o lv e d in o r d e r to d e a l w i t h th e fa c ts th a t y o u h a v e
10

t e s ti fi e d a b o u t in t h i s . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A c c o r d i n g t o th i s y e s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , r i g h t .

N o w l e t ’s g o b a c k t o p u t

m o r e fa c t s , r e le v a n t t o w h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y a l l u d e d t o , i f y o u m a y
t u r n to p a g e 1 7 6 , a n d ta k e u s t h r o u g h p a r a g r a p h 1 3 2 a n d p a r a g r a p h
133 Mr Dukwana.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th e c o n s e q u e n c e s .

“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t p a i d a p p r o x i m a t e ly 6 3 1 m ill i o n w i th o u t h a v i n g
r e c e i v e d a n y th in g in e x c h a n g e . T h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e w h e n
t h e D e p a r t m e n t m a d e t h e s e p a y m e n t s t h a t i t h a d r e c e iv e d
20

v a l u e fo r th e p a y m e n t s a n d th e p a y m e n ts m a d e i n t h a t t h e
h o u s e s h a d b e e n b u il t o r p a r t - b u i l t t o a s a tis f a c t o r y s t a n d a r d .
T h e d e p a r t m e n t h a s m a d e e x t e n s i v e e ffo r ts to t o a s c e r t a in t o
w h a t e x te n t h o u s e s w e r e i n fa c t c o n s tr u c t e d a n d m a t e r i a l s
w e r e i n fa c t d e li v e r e d a s c o n t e m p l a te d i n t h e c o n s tr u c t io n
a g r e e m e n t , i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s tr i e d

Page 193 of 278

to

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a s c e r t a i n to w h a t e x t e n t m a t e r ia l s u p p l ie r s d e a l t w i t h t h e
money

paid

to

them

by

the

r e s p o n s i b l y b y u s i n g i t to s u p p ly

Department

h o n e s tl y

and

m a t e r i a ls t o c o n tr a c t o r s f o r

t h e p u r p o s e o f c o n s tr u c t in g t h e h o u s e s c o n te m p l a t e d in t h e
c o n s tr u c ti o n a g r e e m e n ts a n d f o r t h e p u r p o s e f o r w h i c h t h e
m o n e y w a s o r i g in a l ly a ll o c a te d a n d tr a n s f e r r e d b y N a t io n a l
G o v e r n m e n t t o th e d e p a r t m e n t . T h i s h a s b e e n a n e x c e e d i n g ly
d i ff ic u l t p o in t t o g e t c la r i ty o n . I n t h is r e g a r d I h a v e r e f e r r e d
a b o v e t o c la u s e s o f th e c o n s tr u c ti o n c o n t r a c t w h ic h o b li g e d t h e
10

c o n tr a c to r s t o k e e p i n fo r m a t i o n r e l a ti n g t o t h e b u il d i n g p r o j e c t
u p t o d a te , to a l lo w th e d e p a r t m e n t a c c e s s t o s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n
a n d t o p r o v i d e th e d e p a r t m e n t w i th m o n t h ly w r i t te n p r o g r e s s
r e p o r t o n th e s t a tu s o f t h e p r o je c t, t h e e x p e n d it u r e t o d a t e a n d
a n y o th e r i n f o r m a t i o n r e a s o n a b ly r e q u ir e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t .
T h i s w a s n o t d o n e b y a n y o f t h e c o n tr a c t o r s . T h e c o n tr a c t o r s
p a p e r w o r k w a s e i t h e r t o t a l ly i n a d e q u a t e o r s i m p ly d i d n o t
e x i s t, n o r h a v e t h e m a t e r i a l s u p p l ie r s e v e r p r o v id e d p r o p e r
r e p o r t s t o th e D e p a r t m e n t. ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

20

I f I m a y s t o p y o u t h e r e , s o c l e a r ly fo r m

t h e d e p o n e n t o f th is a ffi d a v i t t h e r e w a s n o v a lu e a t a ll f o r a n a m o u n t o f
R 6 3 . 1 m il li o n t o b e p a i d a t a ll .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Correct.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , if y o u m a y t u r n la s t ly t o p a g e 2 0 3

a n d t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h e c o n t e n ts o f p a r a g r a p h 2 2 2 , y o u w il l l o c a t e it a t
the bottom of the page.

Page 194 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ I d r a w a t t e n t io n t o t h e f o l l o w in g c o n s i d e r a ti o n i n a d d it i o n t o
t h o s e w h ic h I h a v e a lr e a d y m e n t io n e d .
1 . T h e e n tir e s c h e m e w a s fr a u d u le n t a n d ta in t e d b y fr a u d .
2 . T h e c o n t r a c t o r s a n d s u p p li e r s m u s t h a v e k n o w n t h a t i t w a s
u n l a w f u l fo r t h e s c h e m e t o b e c o n s t r u c t e d in th is m a n n e r
a n d f o r p a y m e n t s t o b e m a d e in t h i s m a n n e r.

They must

h a v e k n o w n th a t t h is w a s fu n d a m e n t a l ly in c o n s is t e n t w i th
t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h t h e S t a t e o r d i n a r i ly a n d l a w f u l ly d o e s
10

business.
A s I h a v e p o i n te d o u t s o m e o f t h e i n v o i c e s s u b m it t e d b y
c o n tr a c to r s a n d s u p p l ie r s w e r e th e m s e lv e s fr a u d u le n t .

The

m e r i t o f t h e r e v i e w I r e s p e c tf u lly s u b m i t v e r y s tr o n g , t h e s u m s
p a i d o v e r b y th e D e p a r t m e n t u n d e r t h e u n l a w f u l s c h e m e a n d
now sought to be recovered by the Department are very
s u b s t a n t ia l .
I t i s in t h e p u b lic i n te r e s t th a t s u b s t a n t i a l a m o u n ts o f p u b lic
m o n e y w h i c h h a v e b e e n u n l a w f u lly s p e n t s h o u l d b e r e c o v e r e d .
T h i s is p a r ti c u l a r s o w h e r e th e m o n e y h a s b e e n d iv e r te d f r o m
20

t h e in t e n d e d p u r p o s e o f d e l iv e r i n g h o u s e s t o m e m b e r s o f p o o r
c o m m u n i ti e s w h o d o n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o a d e q u a t e h o u s in g in
f u l fi l m e n t o f t h e ir c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r ig h t .

I t i s i n th e p u b li c

in t e r e s t th a t t h o s e w h o h a v e b e n e fi t t e d f r o m f r a u d a n d
o th e r w i s e u n l a w fu l a c ti v i ty s h o u ld n o t b e a b l e to r e t a i n t h e
b e n e fi ts o f t h e f r a u d a n d il l e g a l i ty. ”

Page 195 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , a n d 2 2 3 .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ A l lo w i n g t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f t h e s c h e m e to s t a n d i s I s u b m i t
in c o n s is t e n t w i th th e d u ty o f t h e S t a t e t o f ig h t c o r r u p t io n a n d
m a l- a d m i n i s tr a t io n p a r t ic u l a r ly i n r e l a ti o n t o p u b l ic m o n e y. ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , m a y I n o w r e fe r y o u b a c k t o y o u r

s t a te m e n t w i t h p a r ti c u l a r r e f e r e n c e t o p a g e 2 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u g o b a c k th e r e y o u k n o w t h i s is a v e r y

d e t a i l e d a ffi d a v i t th a t w a s d e p o s e d t o i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 , s o i t ’s t w o
10

a n d a h a l f y e a r s la t e r, b e c a u s e y o u l iv e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e y o u m ig h t
k n o w i f y o u h a v e h e a r d th a t a n y b o d y h a s b e e n a r r e s te d a n d p r o s e c u te d
in r e g a r d t o a n y o f t h e s e m a t t e r s c o v e r e d i n t h is v e r y d e t a i l e d a ffi d a v i t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

N o s ir, n o C h a ir, n o b o d y.

W e r e t h e r e a n y – o r y o u s a i d t h a t th e r e m a y h a v e

b e e n o r t h e r e w e r e j u n i o r o ff ic i a ls w h o w e r e d is c i p li n e d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

G o v e r n m e n t i t ’s a h i e r a r c h i c a l a n i m a l , in th e

s e n s e t h a t e v e n w h e n y o u p r e p a r e a m e m o ju s t t o d e m o n s tr a t e , i f a
m e m o c o m e s fr o m a D e p u ty D ir e c to r i t w i l l g o t o a D ir e c t o r, i t g o e s t o
t h e C h ie f D ir e c t o r i f t h e y h a v e o n e , i t g o e s t o t h e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r
20

G e n e r a l i f t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s o n e , it g o e s t o th e H e a d o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t a n d it g o e s t o th e M E C , a n d i n th e t i m e th a t I w a s t h e r e I
s a w m a n y d e l a y s t h a t w e r e m a d e d e li b e r a t e ly.

A r e p o r t w o u l d li e

p r e p a r e d b y th e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r w h o m a y n o t n e c e s s a r il y b e t h e r e s a y
w o u ld s u b m i t t o t h e D ir e c to r w h o is o n c o u r s e , i t w il l w a i t th e r e e v e n i f
it w a i t s fo r a w e e k , a n d t h e n w h e n h e c o m e s a n d i n s o m e i n s ta n c e s

Page 196 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C h a ir s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e w o n ’t r e a d t h i s b e c a u s e t h e y r e a li s e t h a t t h e y
a r e n o t t h e f i n a l d e c is io n m a k e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o a ll th a t th e y d o t h e y j u s t s a y n o te d a n d

s ig n .
CHAIRPERSON: They just pass it on.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

O t h e r s w i t h o u t h a v i n g r e a d th is a n d in s o m e

in s t a n c e s y o u w il l fi n d t h a t e v e n s o m e o f th e

H O D ’s w o u l d n o t h a v e

r e a d t h e m a t te r, w h e n i t c o m e s to y o u i f y o u a r e a p e r s o n w h o r e a d s
10

y o u w o u l d fi n d s o m e m is t a k e s a n d y o u s a y t a k e t h is m a t t e r b a c k a n d
y o u w o u l d b e s u r p r is e d t h a t e v e n t h e H O D i n s o m e in s ta n c e s d i d n o t
r e a l is e t h e m i s t a k e , s o i n a n e v e n t t h a t y o u j u s t s i g n y o u w o u l d fi n d
M E C ’s w i ll s i g n w i t h o u t h a v in g r e a d th e w h o l e th i n g , i n s o m e i n s t a n c e s
t h e y j u s t g o to w h a t th e f ir s t p a g e is a n d w h a t t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a r e
a n d th e n y o u s i g n a n d y o u l e a v e it t h e r e , s o I a m j u s t s a y in g th is
s c h e m e w o u l d n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d i f th e r e w a s n o m e m o t h a t c a m e f r o m
w h o e v e r s a y a ju n io r le v e l d ir e c to r u p i n t h i s c a s e t h e C F O w il l b e
in c l u d e d b e c a u s e th e r e is m o n e y i n v o l v e d .

T h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r w o u l d

b e i n c l u d e d , th e D D G w il l b e in c l u d e d a n d t h e H O D w i ll b e i n c l u d e d ,
20

fi n a l ly t h e M E C w o u l d h a v e s ig n e d t h is , a n d th e n t h a t w o u ld t h e n b e
i m p l e m e n te d . W i th o u t th a t i t d o e s n o t h a p p e n , s o I d o n ’t s e e h o w th is
c o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d , b u t i n t h is s i t u a ti o n t h e M E C a n d n o th in g
h a p p e n e d to h i m , t h e

H O D , n o t h i n g t h e D D G , n o th in g , t h e C h ie f

D ir e c t o r w a s t h e a n d t h e d ir e c t o r s a n d o t h e r s a n d t h e C F O n o t h i n g .
S o y o u ’ v e g o t th e s e o th e r p e o p le a t a s e n i o r le v e l n o t h i n g i s

Page 197 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
d o n e to t h e m a n d o n l y th e s e f e w p e o p l e w h o a r e n o t d e c i s i o n m a k e r s ,
e v e n i f y o u a r e a c h ie f d ir e c to r i n y o u r o ffi c e , i n th a t e n v i r o n m e n t y o u
w o u ld n o t m a k e a d e c is i o n w i t h o u t t h a t d e c i s i o n g o i n g u p to t h e D D G
a n d t o t h e H O D w h o w o u l d g iv e i t t o t h e M E C , i t c o m e s b a c k , s o i t is
how these things have been done.
M a y b e w h e n I l e f t t h i n g s c h a n g e d b u t w h ils t I w a s s ti ll t h e r e
t h is w a s t h e p r o c e s s th a t w i ll b e f o ll o w e d , s o I a m ju s t s ta t in g t h e f a c t
t h a t I s tr o n g l y b e li e v e t h a t i f th e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o n e e d e d t o b e d e a lt
w i t h i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e D D G , t h e H O D , th e C F O a n d t h e M E C .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . A n d th e n I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t w h e n

t h e M E C , M r Z w a n e , r e p o r te d a t a n E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l m e e t i n g la t e i n
J a n u a r y t h a t w i th in e ff e c ti v e ly a p e r io d o f a b o u t m a y b e s e v e n w e e k s ,
m a y b e e i g h t w e e k s w h ic h in c l u d e d a c e r ta i n n u m b e r o f w e e k s t h a t w e r e
s h u t d o w n w e e k s fo r m a y b e m a n y b u s in e s s e s , w h e n y o u r e p o r t e d t h a t
h e h a d b e e n a b l e t o r a i s e th e e x p e n d i t u r e o f th e D e p a r t m e n t fr o m 1 0 %
e a r ly i n D e c e m b e r to 6 6 % o r t h e r e a b o u t l a te i n J a n u a r y I w o u ld h a v e
t h o u g h t t h a t th e P r e m ie r w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n t e r e s te d i n k n o w i n g h o w
d i d y o u d o t h a t , e x a c t ly w h a t d i d y o u d o , p l e a s e te ll m e m o r e , h o w d i d
you achieve that.
20

Yo u t a k e e ig h t m o n t h s t o s p e n d o n ly 1 0 % o f t h e

a l lo c a t io n , y o u ta k e s ix , s e v e n w e e k s y o u a r e a b le t o a d d 4 0 s o m e th in g
p e r c e n t o f e x p e n d i t u r e t h a t y o u h a v e u s e d . Yo u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r i n t h a t
m e e ti n g t h e Pr e m ie r a s k i n g t h a t t y p e o f q u e s ti o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o . N o t th a t I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r, b u t h e d id

not.
CHAIRPERSON: He did not?

Page 198 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o h e d i d n o t.

T h e q u e s t io n s t h a t w e r e

a s k e d w e r e c o m in g fr o m o th e r m e m b e r s w h o w e r e s u r p r is e d h o w d id
you do it, but he said it was a, they worked hard throughout the
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d n ’ t g iv e a n a n s w e r a s to e x a c tl y w h a t h e d id ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

There was no report, there was no written

r e p o r t t h a t w o u ld c o m e t o t h e Ex e c u ti v e a s e x p e c t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

S o i t w a s ju s t a v e r b a l r e p o r t j u s t to n o te

that we have managed to prevent money taken out of the province and
w e m a d e s u r e t h a t m o n e y s t a y s in th e Pr o v in c e a n d w e r e p o r te d to th e
N a t io n a l t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h is is th e c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w e l l w e w il l h e a r fr o m t h e P r e m i e r a t s o m e s ta g e
I’ m s u r e b e c a u s e I t h i n k i f y o u a r e th e P r e m ie r a n d y o u r M E C te ll s y o u
t h is t h a t s h o u l d s o m e a l a r m b e lls s h o u l d r i n g , y o u s h o u l d s a y n o I
r e a l ly w a n t t o k n o w h o w d i d y o u a c h i e v e t h a t , w h a t a c t u a ll y d id y o u d o
t o s a ti s fy y o u r s e l f t h a t s o m e b o d y i n y o u r c o u n c i l h a s n ’ t d o n e a n y th in g
w r o n g y o u k n o w, b u t t h a t ’s f in e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

20

Ye s C h a ir.

W e ll t h o s e w e r e a ls o

a d d r e s s e d b u t I a m n o t g o i n g t o t a k e M r D u k w a n a th e r e , j u s t fo r n o ti n g
fr o m p a g e 1 3 2 y o u k n o w t o 1 4 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h o s e w o u ld , c o u l d j u s t b e s o m e o f th e

q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u k n o w t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n g r a p p le w i th b u t w e d o n ’ t h a v e
t o r e a d t h a t C h a ir.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , c a n w e f in d o u t M r D u k w a n a w h e t h e r y o u k n o w

w h e t h e r t h e r e s p o n d e n ts in t h i s m a t te r, i n th is a p p lic a ti o n b r o u g h t b y
t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t i n t h e H i g h C o u r t f o r th e c a n c e l la t io n o f th e s e
c o n tr a c ts a n d r e c o v e r y o f th e m o n e y w h e t h e r t h e y f il e d a n y p a p e r s i n
c o u r t t o o p p o s e o r th e y j u s t d i d n ’ t o p p o s e , is t h a t s o m e t h in g y o u k n o w
or is that something you don’t know?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I d o n ’ t k n o w C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

W e c a n v e r if y a t a l a t e r s t a g e .

CHAIRPERSON: Page 135.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o j u s t f o r n o ti n g C h a ir, th a t s o m e o f

t h e q u e s t io n s th a t y o u h a v e p o s e d a r e d e a lt w i t h o n t h o s e p a g e s 1 4 2 t o
143.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
o u r s u b m is s i o n s .

Ye s , w e a ls o m a k e a n o t e f o r th e m i n

If you go to page 22 Mr Dukwana you make

c o n c l u d i n g s t a te m e n t s a n d t h o s e a r e c r i t ic a l a n d c r u c ia l , i f y o u c a n
read paragraph 72 to 73.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

I a m s ta t in g h e r e t h a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e

Fr e e S t a t e m u s t e x p l a i n w h y i t w i th d r e w t h e a p p l ic a t i o n . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Page 22, paragraph 70.

Oh, 70?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
“ M r Zw a n e m u s t e x p la in t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h e e x t e n t o f h i s

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w o r k d u r i n g D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 h o l i d a y s a n d h o w t h e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r s w e r e id e n ti fi e d a n d w h y t h e y w e r e p a id i n a d v a n c e
w i t h o u t a n y p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s fo ll o w e d .

It must be

n o t e d t h a t i n t h e a p p lic a ti o n t h e S I U d e p o s e d to a c o n fir m a t o r y
a ffi d a v i t a n d y e t t h e S I U h a s n o t i n te r m s o f it s p o w e r s m o v e d
s w if t ly t o r e c o v e r t h e p u b l ic m o n i e s a p p r o p r i a t e d u n l a w fu ll y b y
t h o s e in v o lv e d .

For ease of reference I annex the SIU

c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it a s 2 M D 1 7 . ”
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

A n d t h a t is t h e o n e th a t y o u h a v e

a lr e a d y t o u c h e d o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

“ To m y k n o w l e d g e o r r e c o ll e c ti o n t h r o u g h t h is h o u s in g h e i s t n o
h o u s e s w e r e e i th e r r e n o v a te d o r b u il t t o t h is d a y.

Mr Zwane

n e e d s t o e x p l a in a s t h e f o r m e r e x e c u ti v e a u th o r it y o f th e
d e p a r t m e n t h is r o l e in t h i s h o u s in g h e is t , w h e r e a r e th e h o u s e s
r e n o v a t e d o r b u i lt .
money?

W h a t h a p p e n e d t o m il li o n s o f t a x p a y e r s ’

T h e g o v e r n m e n t o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e m u s t e x p l a i n w h y

it w i t h d r e w t h e a p p li c a t io n i n i s s u e . ”
T h e r e a s o n t h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t M r Z w a n e C h a ir p e r s o n is th a t
20

i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r t h e – o n c e y o u d is s o lv e th e E x e c u ti v e a f t e r t h e
e l e c ti o n t h e – w h e n t h e P r e mi e r i s e le c t e d a n d h a s t a k e n a n o a th a l l
t h e e x e c u t iv e p o w e r s o f th e Pr o v in c e fa ll w i t h i n h is a m b it a n d t h e n h e
d e l e g a t e s , h e d e le g a te s t h i s e i th e r t o t h e H O D ’s , t o M E C ’s e tc e t e r a ,
c e r t a i n p o w e r s a n d in t h is c a s e a s a n e x e c u ti v e a u t h o r i ty y o u h a v e g o t
a n a u t h o r i ty i n t e r m s o f t h e la w to d e a l w i t h m a t t e r s th a t p e r ta i n t o y o u r

Page 201 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h a t is w h y i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t w h i ls t p e o p l e
w i ll s a y I d o n ’ t s i g n i t w i ll b e o n c e th e r e i s a r e c o m m e n d a t io n it g o e s u p
u n t il t h e M E C , t h e M E C m a y n o t b e i n v o lv e d i n th e a d ju d ic a t i o n o f
t e n d e r s e tc e t e r a b u t o n c e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t is t o b e m a d e t h e r e w o u l d
b e t h is i t w o u ld c o m e th a t t h e – th is i s w h a t t h e r e l e v a n t c o m m i t t e e s
e tc e t e r a th a t h a v e y o u k n o w a n d y o u w o u l d h a v e th e k n o w le d g e , i t
m i g h t c o m e t o y o u r a t t e n t i o n f o r y o u f o r a t te n ti o n s o t h a t y o u k n o w
w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d , i t m a y c o m e a ls o fo r y o u to m a k e – t o a p p r o v e
w h a t e v e r th e y s h o u l d h a v e d e a l t w i t h y o u k n o w fr o m w h e r e th e y a r e
10

s u p p o s e d t o d o s o i t is n o t c o r r e c t t h a t a n M E C w o u l d c la i m t h a t h e d id
n o t k n o w o r t h a t i t d i d n o t h a p p e n , y o u k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n s i n
y o u r d e p a r t m e n t, o t h e r w is e i t w ill b e a p e r s o n w h o i g n o r e s h i s
r e s p o n s i b i li ty, t h a t i s w h y I e m p h a s iz e d th a t M r Z w a n a h a s a n
e x p l a n a t io n to d o a n d i t w o u ld b e in th e b e s t i n t e r e s ts o f t h is
C o m m i s s i o n c o n s id e r in g th a t y o u a r e t a l k in g a b o u t t h e r e ’s s o m a n y
p e o p l e , a l m o s t 1 4 0 0 0 u n i ts th a t w o u l d h a v e c o v e r e d s o m a n y f a m il ie s
a n d s o m u c h m o n e y t h a t w e c a n n o t g e t i t t h is y e a r w h e n i t h a p p e n e d i n
2010.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a l s o in r e g a r d t o t h i s p r o j e c t , i f y o u c a n c a l l i t a

20

p r o j e c t , h e h a d t h e s p e c i a l i n te r e s t in it i f y o u r e v i d e n c e i s t r u e ,
b e c a u s e h e w e n t t o t h e e x t e n t o f n o t g o in g o n h o li d a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : In o r d e r to p u t t o g e t h e r a p l a n fr o m w h a t y o u s a y h e
s a i d a t t h e m e e t in g .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Correct.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e r e p o r te d b a c k .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

He reported back.

I t w o u ld b e d i ffi c u l t t o th in k th a t h e s ta y e d a n d

w o r k e d a n d d id n ’t t a k e a h o li d a y b u t h e d i d n ’ t k n o w h o w, w h a t t h e p la n
w a s a n d h o w t h e p la n w a s i m p le m e n t e d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I t w o u l d b e – i f y o u w e r e t o s a y th a t it w o u l d

be disingenuous of him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I a m j u s t a b o u t to m o v e t o a n e w t o p i c

M r D u k w a n a , th e o n e th a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o i t a s t h e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M o k o e n a I s e e w e a r e a t s o m e t h i n g l ik e t w o

m i n u t e s t o f o u r, l e t ’s t a l k a b o u t w h a t ’s g o in g to h a p p e n . I a m a b l e t o
s i t b e y o n d fo u r b u t l e t’s j u s t c h e c k a n d m a k e s u r e th a t w e a r e a b l e t o .
Fr o m y o u r s id e y o u a r e ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Ye s C h a ir w e f i n d o u r s e lv e s w h e r e t h e r e

m i g h t b e o t h e r is s u e s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o m o r r o w s o w e a r e w il li n g t o
p r o c e e d a n d d e a l w i t h th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a r e y o u a l s o o k a y ?
ADV SMANGA SETHENE:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e i n a g r e e m e n t C h a ir.

Yo u a r e i n a g r e e m e n t , o k a y.

fi n e i f w e c o n ti n u e b e y o n d f o u r ?

Page 203 of 278

Mr D u k w a n a y o u a r e

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

P e r h a p s a t e a b r e a k C h a ir.

S o r r y, m a y b e a te a b r e a k w o u l d b e a p p r o p r ia t e , b u t

before we take the tea break I just want to have an idea that we are
c o m i n g b a c k a f te r t h e te a b r e a k t o c o n ti n u e o r n o t .

Mr Dukwana you

are okay?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m o k a y.

Ye s , w h a t i s y o u r e s t i m a t e o f h o w m u c h t i m e w e

need?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

C h a ir t h e r e m a in in g t o p i c s a r e f a ir ly

s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d a n d t h e y a r e n o t a s d e m a n d in g a s t h e o n e s w e h a v e
d e a lt w i th , n o my s e n s e is t h a t w e m i g h t n e e d a n o t h e r h o u r, a ls o i f w e
can make sure that – we are dealing here with a witness that is a
p o li t ic i a n s o i f h e s e e s a m ic r o p h o n e i t m i g h t b e d i ffic u lt a l s o t o d e a l
w i t h h i m M r C h a i r s o fr o m t i m e t o ti m e I a m r e m in d e d a s to h o w t o l e a d
s u c h a w it n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w e ll I h a v e h a d q u i t e a n u m b e r o f o c c a s i o n s w h e n
I h a v e a l s o t h o u g h t m a y b e I s h o u l d i n te r v e n e b u t i t ’s o k a y, s o y o u r
e s ti m a t e i s w e s h o u ld b e a b l e to g o u p to f iv e a n d f in is h .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

20

I f w e g o u p to fi v e o r s ix , th e r e w a s o n e

w i t n e s s a ls o w h ic h is s i m p ly a c o r r o b o r a t o r y w i t n e s s , a v e r y, v e r y s h o r t
w i t n e s s , a n d t h a t i s t h e o n e t h a t is g o i n g t o b e le d b y m y l e a r n e d
c o l l e a g u e a n d . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t o n e w o u l d b e a b o u t fi v e m i n u t e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t h i n k s o y e s , s o f o r M r D u k w a n e if w e

can do one hour or so.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, l e t ’s t a k e a s h o r t b r e a k , le t ’s t a k e a s h o r t

b r e a k , t e n m i n u te s o r fi f t e e n m i n u t e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Te n m i n u t e s C h a ir.

Te n m in u t e s s h o u ld d o , o k a y, w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t e n

p a s t f o u r. W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s p r o c e e d .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Mr Dukwana we were now just

a b o u t t o d e a l w i t h y o u r n e x t t o p ic w h ic h y o u c a n l o c a te i t fr o m p a g e 2 2
fr o m p a r a g r a p h 7 4 r e f e r r in g t o th e h o u s i n g h e is t t h r o u g h i m p l e m e n t in g
a g e n t.

C a n y o u p l e a s e p r o c e e d d e a li n g w i t h th e r e le v a n t f a c ts u n d e r

t h a t to p ic ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e – th is …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C a n y o u s w i tc h o n y o u r m i c r o p h o n e

please.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e – t h is o n e y o u h a v e g o t n o t
o n ly t h e h o u s i n g – in th e F r e e S t a t e t h e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n ts a r e a ll
20

o v e r a n d in s o m e c a s e s t h e y s p e a k t o w h a t I h a d r a i s e d e a r l ie r o n o f a
s y s te m t h a t is t h e r e c r e a ti n g r e d u n d a n c y o n th e o th e r h a n d o f
g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts . Yo u w o u ld h a v e t h i s c a s e f o r in s t a n c e in t h e
F D C t h e – th e y u s e f o r – t h e F D C h a s a p a r ti c u la r r e s p o n s i b ili t y i n t h e
Fr e e S t a t e a n d k e y t o th a t w o u l d b e to – i t w o u l d d e a l w i t h b u s in e s s e s
in th e p r o v i n c e a n d d e v e lo p m e n t o f a ls o S M M E ’s e t c e t e r a . I n t h e – i n

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d o i n g w i t h – i n d e a li n g w it h th a t b e c a u s e i t b e c a m e d i ffi c u l t t o g e t m o r e
f u n d i n g fo r t h i s p a r ti c u l a r t h in g i t t h e n c r e a t e d a p o r t fo li o th a t d e a l s
w i t h o w n i n g p r o p e r ti e s a n d m a n a g i n g p r o p e r t i e s t o g e t r e s o u r c e s th a t
w o u ld a d d u p to y o u r c o ffe r s a s F D C . B u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly it d i d – i t c a m e
o u t t h a t t h e b o a r d d e c i d e d t h a t i t w i ll r e m o v e a l l th o s e is s u e s t h a t w e r e
n o c o r e b u s i n e s s in t h e F D C a n d p a r t o f i t w a s p r o p e r ti e s .

So they

s t a r t e d s e l li n g p r o p e r t ie s y o u k n o w d i s p o s i n g o f p r o p e r t ie s .

And

u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h a t w a s k il li n g t h e – y o u k n o w w h a t w a s g iv in g th e
m o n e y i n te r ms o f k e e p in g t o t h e m a n d w o r k i n g o u t th e ir m a n d a t e s .
10

B u t w h a t is v e r y i n t e r e s t in g i s o n c e y o u d o th a t y o u t a k e y o u r
r e s p o n s i b i li ty th a t is n o t e v e n y o u r m a n d a t e f o r w h e n t h e p r o je c t in
Vr e d e o f 1 0 0 0 h o u s e s c o u l d n o t b e s u c c e s s fu ll y c o m p l e t e d t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s in g a p p o i n t e d F D C a s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u m e a n t h e r e w a s – t h e r e h a d b e e n a d e c is io n
t o b u i ld 1 0 0 0 h o u s e s in Vr e d e ?
MR

M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e r e w a s a d e c is io n t a k e n b y t h e

D e p a r t m e n t a l o n g t i m e a g o t o b u i ld h o u s e s in Vr e d e ; a 1 0 0 0 o f t h o s e
u n i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t t h e c o n tr a c t o r th a t w a s a p p o i n te d c o u l d
not do much and almost about 800 or so houses were left and you know
w e r e n o t b u i lt a n d a s s u c h [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e n o t c o m p l e te d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W e r e n o t – n o t e v e n b u i lt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e n o t e v e n – t h e b u il d i n g d id n o t e v e n s ta r t?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o n o t – i t h a d n o t s t a r t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e g a r d to 8 0 0 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A l m o s t 8 0 0 e v e n m o r e th a n 8 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Almost 800
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o n ly a b o u t 2 0 0 w e r e b u il t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : L e s s t h a n 2 0 0 y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th o s e w e r e b u il t t o c o m p l e ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o m e o f t h e m .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe not – oh some of them.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o m e o f th e m .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr ig h t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e n t h e – a t t h e t i m e th e n e w b o a r d w a s

a p p o i n t e d I th in k t h is y e a r ; t h e F D C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e w b o a r d ; t h e FD C b o a r d ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . T h e o ld b o a r d h a d a ls o M r M o k h e s i a s
a m e m b e r o f th e F D C b o a r d .

R e m e m b e r M r M o k h e s i is a H e a d o f

D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s in g a n d th e n h a d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d is
M e H a n ts i M a y e z a .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t w h il e – w h i le y o u a r e t h e r e i s i t

p e r m is s ib l e – i t is p o s s ib le – h o w is i t p o s s i b l e th a t M r M o k h e s i w o u l d
be part of parcel of FDC?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I d o n o t k n o w b u t a s I s a i d a n y t h in g i n t h e

Fr e e S t a t e i s n o r m a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r w h i c h d e p a r t m e n t d id t h e F D C fa ll i n te r m s o f

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
the provincial government?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ec o n o m i c D e v e l o p m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E c o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th is – M r M o k h e s i w a s …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H O D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n H u m a n S e t tl e m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n [i n d is t in c t] a t s o m e s t a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A s a c c o r d i n g t o th e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t a ls o w e
collected was at some stage and a member of the board.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d y o u w e r e s a y in g w h o w a s t h e C h a ir
a t t h e t i m e ? W h o w a s t h e C h a ir ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t w a s M e M a y e z a – H a n t s i .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s o k a y. N o w i n r e la t io n t o p a r a g r a p h
7 8 y o u m a k e m e n ti o n o f c o m p a n i e s c a l le d U n i t e l H o ld in g s a s w e l l a s
Mafuram.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a I t h i n k I i n te r r u p t e d M r

D u k w a n a b e fo r e h e c o u ld c o m p le t e a c e r t a in p o i n t h e w a s m a k i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h is p r o j e c t w i t h a c o n tr a c t o r s h a v i n g f a i le d . I
t h o u g h t h e w a s [i n te r v e n t io n ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s i n t h e m i d d l e o f a s e n te n c e t o s a y i n t h e l ig h t
o f t h a t f a i lu r e w h a t h a p p e n e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : O f t h e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e c o n tr a c t o r s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O f t h e Vr e d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b u il d t h e h o u s e s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e D e p a r t m e n t f e l t th a t y o u n e e d e d t o f a s t
tr a c k t h e b u i ld i n g . A p p o in t e d F D C a s a n i m p le m e n t a g e n t a n d – a n d in
10

t h is c a s e I p o i n t e d o u t th a t it is v e r y i n t e r e s t in g t h a t t h e H O D t h e n –
t h e s e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s t o d e a l w i t h h o u s in g y o u h a v e g o t C O C TA
s o m e b o d y is t h e ir H O D a n d y o u h a v e g o t r e q u is it e s k il l o r s k il ls i n t h e
D e p a r t m e n t in t e r m s o f p e o p le w h o w o u l d k n o w w h o w o u ld h a v e
t e c h n ic a l k n o w h o w i n t e r m s o f m a k i n g s u r e th a t th e y f o ll o w u p a l l t h e s e
p r o j e c ts a n d r e p o r t p r o g r e s s e n g i n e e r s e t c e t e r a .

N o w t a k in g t h is a n d

t a k i n g i t to F D C m a y b e w h e n I l e ft t h e y a m a s s e d t h e s k i lls t h a t w o u l d
a l lo w t h e m t o b e a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t in t h e h o u s in g fi e ld w h e r e i n
t h e y – th e n w h a t is v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g is th a t th e s a m e – t h e d e t a ils – t h is
is s o m e th i n g t h a t I a m d r iv i n g t o s a y. I t n e e d s t h o r o u g h in v e s t i g a t io n
20

a s t o h o w a n d w h y w a s i t a l lo w e d t o h a p p e n ? T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e
b o a r d h a s a c o m p a n y I t h in k i t is M o o n o o r s o m e t h i n g ; M o o n o , M o o n o .
Is t h e n a p p o i n te d to c o m p l e t e th e 8 0 0 u n i t s in – i n Vr e d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n Vr e d e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d n o b o d y s e e s th a t a s a p r o b l e m .

I am

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d , I a m a p p o in t e d a s a n i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a n d th e n m y c o m p a n y g e t s b u s in e s s t o g o a n d [i n d is t in c t] a n d d o t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: From the board.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h e a r g u m e n t t h a t w o u ld b e g o i n g o u t

a n d r e s p o n s e t h e p e r s o n w o u ld s a y I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h e – i n g i v i n g
o u t th e h o u s e s b u t t h i s is w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o s a y t h a t o n c e t h i n g s s ta r t
h a p p e n in g p e o p le d o n o t e v e n s e e w h e n t h i n g s a r e w r o n g .

And the

q u e s t io n a l s o is w h y w o u ld t h i s b e g i v e n to F D C w h e n F D C d id n o t
p o s s e s s th e e x p e r ie n c e a n d t h e r e q u is i t e s k il ls t h a t w o u ld b e n e e d e d t o
m o n i t o r a n d d e a l w i th t h is p r o je c t ?
10

A n d t h e r e is n o e x p l a n a t io n

C h a ir p e r s o n o t h e r t h a n i t w a s f a c i li t a te d t o e n s u r e t h a t i t g e ts t o t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n .

O th e r t h a n t h a t I c a n n o t e x p l a in .

Because you cannot

h a v e t h is a n d t h e n i t h a p p e n s t h is w a y a n d F D C c a n n o t e x p la i n i t s e l f
a n d I d o n o t t h in k F D C o t h e r t h a n s a y i n g t h e p e r s o n w o u l d a r r o g a n tly
in d i c a t e t h a t I w a s n o t p a r t t h e r e f o r e t h e r e w a s n o c o n f li c t o f i n t e r e s t in
t h is p a r tic u la r [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d ju s t te ll m e i f y o u a r e
able to.

T h is c o n c e p t o f a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t if y o u a r e a b l e t o ;

w h e r e i t c o m e s f r o m w it h in g o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s h e a r in g
e v i d e n c e w i t h r e g a r d to th e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m i t c a m e u p . W e h a v e n o t
20

fi n i s h e d th e e v i d e n c e – I h a v e n o t f i n is h e d h e a r i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r
T h a b e th e w h o w a s t h e H O D o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e a t t h e
ti m e . B u t I g a i n e d th e i m p r e s s i o n r ig h tl y o r w r o n g ly th a t i t m a y w e l l b e
t h a t a t l e a s t th a t d e p a r t m e n t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e w h o le p r o v in c i a l
government, that department may have been using implementing agents
f o r p u r p o s e s o f b y p a s s i n g o r c ir c u m v e n ti n g p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s .

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S o – b u t I h a v e n o t h a d a c h a n c e to a s k Mr T h a b e th e w h e r e d i d t h i s
w h o le c o n c e p t c o m e fr o m ? D id i t c o m e fr o m t h e w h o l e o f g o v e r n m e n t ?
Is i t a k n o w n c o n c e p t to s a y u n d e r c e r t a in c ir c u m s t a n c e s a g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n t c a n r e s o r t t o i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n ts o r is i t s o m e t h i n g th a t
c e r t a i n d e p a r t m e n t s d e c i d e d to d o o n t h e ir o w n ? Is i t – a r e y o u a b le t o
s a y a n y th i n g t o m e a b o u t t h is w h o le c o n c e p t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Mr C h a ir p e r s o n th e – i f I c a n in d i c a t e . T h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c W o r k s , t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e , t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h , t h e – I th i n k t h e s e a r e th e d e p a r t m e n t h o u s i n g .
10

T h e s e a r e t h e d e p a r t m e n ts i n t h e m a in i n t h e F r e e S t a te t h a t a r e u s i n g
i m p l e m e n t a g e n t s . B y w a y o f e x a m p le i n f a c t y o u h a v e a d e p a r t m e n t in
s o m e i n s t a n c e s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e p a id s o m u c h m o n e y in
s o m e in s t a n c e s a l m o s t a b o u t R 9 0 5 m i ll io n t o s o m e p r o j e c ts , to s o m e
c o m p a n i e s i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts a n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n t h a t y o u c a n fi n d
t h is

e x p l a n a t io n

C h a ir p e r s o n

is

to

c ir c u m v e n t

the

supply

chain

p r o v i s i o n s . A n d w h a t a ls o is w o r r y i n g i n s o m e in s ta n c e s t h e r e w a s a
r e p o r t fo r i n s t a n c e i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e b y t h e A u d i t o r
General

who

could

not

get

into

th e

–

the

fi n a n c e s

of

these

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s b e c a u s e th e y a r e p r i v a t e c o m p a n i e s a n d t h e
20

A u d i t o r G e n e r a l c a n n o t a u d it t h o s e p r iv a t e c o m p a n i e s .

So the

D e p a r t m e n t w il l t a k e t h e ir r e s o u r c e s e v e r y – b u t w h a t e v e r th a t is m e a n t
for

p r o je c ts ,

c a p i ta l

p r o je c ts

and

th e y

w i ll

take

th e m

to

th e

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d t h e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r il y
f o ll o w p r o c e s s e s , p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s o r s u p p ly c h a i n p r o c e s s e s .
T h e n t h e y w il l a p p o i n t – s o i t i s a c tu a lly a s y o u s a y it is a s c h e m e i n

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e p r o v i n c e t h a t s y p h o n a n d t a k e s m o n e y w i th o u t a c c o u n t i n g b u t y o u
c a n j u s t i fy t h a t I g a v e t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e . T h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f A g r ic u l t u r e g a v e a b o u t t h r e e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n ts a n d I t h in k i t
w o u ld b e t h e c o s t fo r t h r e e y e a r s a l m o s t m o r e t h a n R 3 b i ll i o n . A n d i n
t e r m s o f a c c o u n ti n g t h e s a m e p e r s o n w h o w a s h e r e c o u l d n o t d o th a t
because

they

were

s a y in g

we

gave

th e

r e s p o n s i b i li ty

to

th e

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d th e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l f o u n d it v e r y d i ffic u l t t o
a u d it a n d r a is e d t h is m a t t e r.

B u t i t is s t il l c o n ti n u i n g .

T h i s is a

p r o b le m .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t. I d o n o t – I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e t h e

A u d i t o r G e n e r a l w o u l d b e e n ti t le d t o s a y y o u a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o w e a n
e x p l a n a t io n a s t o h o w t h is a m o u n t t h a t y o u g a v e t o s o m e b o d y e l s e w a s
spent.

Yo u c a n n o t ju s t g iv e m o n e y a n d t h e n w a s h y o u r h a n d s o ff i t.

T h i s is ta x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y.

W h e r e is th e n e e d t o g iv e t h e m o n e y t o

s o m e b o d y e ls e t o d o w h a t y o u r o w n d e p a r t m e n t i s s u p p o s e d t o d o ?
B e c a u s e I w o u ld i m a g in e t h a t i f y o u a r e a D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e f o r
e x a m p l e o r o f h o u s i n g y o u n e e d t o i d e n t i fy s k i ll s th a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t
m u s t h a v e a n d s k i ll s t h a t i t m u s t h a v e i n s u ffi c i e n t n u m b e r s in o r d e r to
i m p l e m e n t i ts p r o g r e s s .
20

A n d t h e r e f o r e g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g y o u s h o u ld

b e a b l e t o h a v e p e o p le w h o w il l i m p l e m e n t y o u r p r o g r a ms a s a
d e p a r t m e n t w h o w o u ld h a v e t h e r i g h t s k il l s .

I t m a y b e t h a t in c e r t a i n

c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d m a y b e th e y s h o u l d b e r e a lly v e r y r a r e w h e r e y o u
m i g h t h a v e t o g o o u ts i d e b u t g e n e r a l ly o n e w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t y o u h a v e
p e o p l e w it h s k il ls t o c a r r y o u t y o u r p r o g r a m s . A n d t h e r e f o r e i t b e c o m e s
d i ff ic u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y is th e r e a n e e d f o r y o u to g i v e a s e r v i c e

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p r o v i d e r t o i m p le m e n t y o u r o w n p r o g r a m s ? B u t a ls o c e r t a i n l y n o w to –
t o s a y n o w y o u w a s h y o u r h a n d s o ff h o w t h a t m o n e y h a s b e e n u s e d
s e e m s to b e s o m e t h in g e l s e . B u t y o u r i m p r e s s io n – is y o u r i m p r e s s i o n
t h a t i t m i g h t b e u s e d t h is c o n c e p t o f a n i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t m i g h t b e
u s e d t o b y p a s s o r c ir c u m v e n t o r a v o i d c o m p ly i n g w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e d u r e s a s w e ll ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I s t a r te d I i n d ic a te d t h a t a
s y s te m i s b u i l t i n t h e p r o v i n c e a n d b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e n o c o n s e q u e n c e s
o n c e t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l c a n m a k e t h e f i n d i n g s t h a t is w h y i f y o u c h e c k
10

y o u w il l fi n d t h a t t h e Pr o v i n c e is a c t u a l ly n o t p e r fo r m in g v e r y w e l l a n d
t h is a l s o is e x te n d e d t o l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t is i t y o u r i m p r e s s i o n th a t is w h a t I w a n t to

know?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

My i m p r e s s i o n i s i t is m e a n t o n l y to

c ir c u m v e n t th e s u p p ly c h a i n p r o c e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S u p p l y c h a in – y e s o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th e r e i s n o o t h e r e x p l a n a ti o n . B u t a s I w a s
s a y in g a l s o i n t h e l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t t h e y – th e y w o u l d h a v e d e v i a ti o n s
w h ic h w e r e m e a n t – w h ic h a r e m e a n t o n l y f o r e m e r g e n c i e s b u t p e o p l e
20

w i ll h a v e d e v i a t io n s j u s t t o a v o i d g o i n g t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s f o r
s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n o t e v e n u r g e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s f a r a s y o u k n o w fr o m y o u r e x p e r i e n c e i n

g o v e r n m e n t y o u d o n o t k n o w o f a n y p r e s c r i p ts t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ly a ll o w
t h is t h i n g o f i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n ts ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o t h e t i m e t h a t w e w e r e th e r e i t w a s n o t a

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
common occurrence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o I w o u l d n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t I t h i n k i t w o u l d b e th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o t a t t h e s c a l e th a t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t w h ic h i t is h a p p e n i n g n o w.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : H a p p e n i n g i n t h e Fr e e S t a te .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
y o u r s t a t e m e n ts .

Yo u a r e r e fe r e n c in g t w o c o m p a n i e s i n

T h e o n e c a ll e d U n i t e l H o l d i n g s a n d M a fu r e w h o a r e

a ls o th e b e n e f ic ia r i e s a c c o r d i n g to y o u t o t h e H o u s i n g H e i s t . A r e y o u
a b l e t o t e ll u s a s t o w h o a r e t h e i n d iv i d u a ls t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n
a s s o c i a t e d w i th t h e s e c o m p a n i e s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

M a f u r e i f I – l e t m e r e a d t h is ?

I t w i ll b e

b e t t e r th a t w a y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e k e e p t o t h e t i m e th a t w e h a v e .
“ T h e r e w a s a ls o a c o m p a n y c a l le d M a fu r e w i th l i n k s to M s T h o k o A l ic e
M a le m b e t h e d a u g h t e r o f M r M a g a s h u l e .
20

Th e r e w a s a l s o a c o m p a n y

c a l l e d U n i t e l H o l d i n g s L i m i te d w i t h i ts p r in c i p l e p l a c e o f b u s i n e s s i n
W y n b e r g i n J o h a n n e s b u r g . M r L i a n L i n g L e e – M r L e e a n d Ms M a le m b e
a r e d i r e c t o r s o f t h is c o m p a n y. Fo r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e a n n e x e d t h e D M –
2 D M 1 8 a c o p y o f t h e N H B R C f o r m p r o v id i n g t h e d ir e c to r s h i p b o t h
M a f u r e a n d U n i t e l H o ld i n g s b e n e fi t t e d fr o m th e H o u s in g H e is t i n t h e
Fr e e S t a t e .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Es p e c ia lly w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e Vo g e l fo n t e i n

one.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C a n y o u s h a r e w i th t h e C h a ir a s t o h o w
w o u ld t h e s e e n ti ti e s o r i n d i v i d u a ls h a v e b e n e fi t te d fr o m t h is H o u s i n g
H e is t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e – th e is s u e is t h e s e m a t te r s w i ll n o t b e –
t h e y w i ll n o t g o f o r c o m p e ti ti v e b i d d i n g a n d – a n d t h e – i t w il l t h e n
h a p p e n a s y o u w il l s e e a ls o in t h e – i n Vo g e l fo n t e i n a n d i n o t h e r a r e a s
10

t h a t t h e – a s y o u c h e c k n u m b e r 8 0 w h e r e th e m o d u s o p e r a n d i o f t h e
H o u s i n g H e is t w a s s i m p l e i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e . T h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p –
D e p a r t m e n t o f H o u s in g w o u l d a w a r d a h o u s i n g c o n tr a c t t o b u i l d a
c e r t a i n n u m b e r o f u n i ts .

N o t o n e u n i t is b u i l t a n d t h e Fr e e S t a te

g o v e r n m e n t – w il l – d o n o t f o l lo w u p t o e n s u r e t h a t m o n ie s f r o m t h e
p u b lic p u r s e a r e a c c o u n te d f o r i n c o m p l ia n c e w it h t h e P F M A . I n s o m e
in s t a n c e s h o u s e s w o u l d b e b u il t a n d n o t c o m p l e t e d a n d w o u l d b e
h a n d e d o v e r to a n e w c o n tr a c t o r t o c o m p l e t e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: And yet
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u d o n o t i n d i c a t e i n r e g a r d t o t h i s t o p ic th e y e a r s

w h e n th is h a p p e n e d . W h i c h y e a r s a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t h e r e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e – I t h in k w e – I a m n o t s u r e e x a c t ly w it h
t h e y e a r s a t t h e m o m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n b u t t h e – I th i n k i t w a s e a r ly –
e a r ly 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 s o m e w h e r e t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t a t t h a t ti m e M r M o h k e s i w a s h e H e a d o f t h e
H u m a n S e t tl e m e n t D e p a r t m e n t a l r e a d y ?

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W h e n i t s t a r t e d t h e Vo g e l f o n te in I t h i n k i t

s t a r t e d w a y b a c k b u t h e w o u l d h a v e p r e s id e d o v e r i t a s i t c o n ti n u e s .
Yo u s e e li k e t h e h o u s e s i n Vr e d e s ta r t e d 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld y o u h a v e – w o u l d y o u r e m e m b e r a r o u n d a b o u t
w h ic h y e a r h e m ig h t h a v e b e c o m e H O D o f th a t D e p a r t m e n t M r M o h k e s i
o r y o u w o u l d n o t?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I d o n o t k n o w. I d o n o t k n o w r e a lly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . W e ll I a m j u s t t h in k i n g a b o u t w h a t y o u
s a y in p a r a g r a p h 7 7 n a m e ly t h a t M r M o h k e s i t h e v e r y s a m e H O D o f t h e
10

AFSDHS was a board member of the FDC but we know that at some
s t a g e it w a s s o m e b o d y e l s e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o in 2 0 1 0 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Th e ti m e w h e n t h is m a t t e r w a s r e f e r r e d w h e n
the FDC was appointed he was an HOD.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But you do not remember when that was?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t h i n k b e c a u s e t h e – i t w o u l d b e 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 5 .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t s o m e w h e r e t h e r e 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m u c h l a te r t h a n 2 0 1 0 ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u w e r e s t il l e x p l a i n i n g to t h e C h a i r

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w i t h r e f e r e n c e to y o u r p a r a g r a p h 8 1 a s t o h o w w o u l d th e s e e n t i ti e s
b e n e fi t fr o m th e s c h e m e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e n u m b e r 8 1 I s a y :
“ A l t e r n a ti v e ly

th e

Department

i m p l e m e n ti n g

agent

advance

w o u ld

a p p o in t

m i ll io n s

to

an
the

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d t h e l a t te r w o u ld a p p o in t
s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s t o b u i ld h o u s e s . I n m a n y i n s t a n c e s
t h e d ir e c t o r s o f t h e c o m p a n i e s r e n d e r in g s e r v ic e s i n
t h is r e g a r d w h o w il l p e r s o n s p o l i tic a lly a s s o c i a t e d
10

w i t h t h e Mr M a g a s h u l e . ”
T h e d a n g e r t h a t y o u s e e in m a n y o f t h e s e it i s li k e m y s e l f C h a ir p e r s o n .
I w o u l d r e g i s t e r a c o m p a n y, n o s k i ll s w h a ts o e v e r i n te r m s o f h o u s in g
a n d t h e n I w o u l d – I w i ll b e a w a r d e d w i th t h e t e n d e r t o b u i ld l e t u s s a y
1 0 0 0 h o u s e s o r 5 0 0 h o u s e s . N o r m a lly w h a t t h e s e p e o p l e w o u ld d o t h e y
w i ll th e n a p p o i n t a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r a n d i n s o m e i n s t a n c e s y o u w o u l d j u s t
d e t e r m i n e t h e a m o u n t i f f o r i n s t a n c e I s a y a l l I n e e d is R 1 0 0 0 0 p e r u n it
w i t h o u t li f ti n g a s h o v e l [ i n d is ti n c t ] a n d t h e n t h e r e s t i t i s fo r y o u t o
c o m p le t e a n d d o – a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u b u il d th e s e h o u s e s . S o I g e t
t h e te n d e r.

20

I a m t h e p e r s o n w h o a p p li e d .

I g e t t h e t e n d e r b u t th e

t e n d e r – I g e t t h e m o n e y. Th e m o n e y th a t I w il l g e t i s ju s t R 1 0 0 0 0 p e r
u n i t i f y o u h a v e i t a n d t h e n m u l t ip ly b y 1 0 0 0 i f th o s e a r e th e h o u s e s
t h a t I g e t t h a t w ill b e t h e m o n e y t h a t w i ll c o m e to m e a n d I w o u l d n o t
h a v e in c u r r e d a n y c o s t i n t e r m s o f th a t t h e n y o u w o u ld t h e n a p p o i n t
c o n tr a c to r s . P e o p le w h o k n o w t h e j o b a n d th e y w il l b e c o n tr a c to r s a n d
t h e n t h e y w il l c o m p l e t e a n d d o t h e j o b . I n s o m e in s ta n c e s b e c a u s e t h e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
m o n e y t h a t t h e y h a v e i t i s n o t e n o u g h t o d o t h is a n d a ls o p r o fi t . H e r e
y o u t e m p t in g th e m t o a c tu a l ly d o s o m e t h i n g s th a t a r e n o t c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Some shoddy work.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I b e g y o u r s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : To d o s o m e s h o d d y w o r k ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s t h e y w o u l d – b e c a u s e y o u w a n t a ls o t o
liv e . S o t h a t is w h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e i n th i s . A n d – s o I a m j u s t s a y in g
t h is n e e d s – t h i s m a t te r n e e d s to b e fo ll o w e d u p th o r o u g h l y to g e t th e
r o l e o f th e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s a n d a l s o p e o p l e w h o a r e g e t t in g t h e s e
10

t e n d e r s a n d c h e c k w h o t h e n b e c o m e s t h e s u b - c o n t r a c t o r ? A n d w h a t is
it th a t t h e p e r s o n – y e s th e c o n tr a c t o r d i d in th e – i n w o r k in g i n t h e
project.

Yo u w o u l d fi n d i t d o e s n o t h a p p e n .

I mean you may have a

c o m p a n y b u i ld i n g a r o a d a n d t h e n s u b - c o n tr a c ti n g s o m e c o m p a n ie s t o
d o s o m e t h i n g b u t i n t h is c a s e i n t h e h o u s in g s o m e p e o p l e – I j u s t g e t
t h e m o n e y a n d I s t a y a n d t h e n y o u c o n ti n u e w i t h w h a t e v e r y o u h a v e .
A n d a ls o b e c a u s e t h e c o m p a n y – t h e c o n t r a c t i s w r i t t e n i n my n a m e a n d
t h e n I a m t h e o n e w h o i s b u y i n g th e m a t e r ia l I w o u l d t h e n g e t
s o m e t h i n g f r o m t h a t . S o w o u ld c l a i m VAT f o r th a t . S o th is is t h e t h i n g
that is happening in the province and I do not know whether it is
20

p r e v a l e n t i n o t h e r p r o v in c e s . Yo u h a v e g o t q u a li f ie d p e o p l e , c o m p a n i e s
t h a t a r e r e a d y t o d o t h e b u il d in g b u t in s o m e c a s e s t h e y w i ll n o t e v e n
b o t h e r b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w t h e y w il l n o t g e t t h e w o r k . A n d th e n y o u g iv e
p e o p l e – I m e a n t h e r e a r e s o m a n y p e o p l e y o u w o u l d s e e th a t t h e y c a l l
t h e m s e l v e s a b u s i n e s s p e o p l e b u t a p e r s o n w o u l d n o t e v e n h a v e a tr u c k
e tc e t e r a . T h e y w o u l d b e d r iv i n g i n th e s e b e a u ti f u l c a r s b u t th e y a r e in

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t h e c o n s tr u c t io n b u s i n e s s w i t h o u t a n y tr u c k s to d o th e w o r k . S o I a m
ju s t s a y i n g in s h o r t th is i s w h a t t h e s e t h i n g s a r e a ll a b o u t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d th e n t h e c o m p a n y th a t is c a l le d

M a jo r B r i c k s w o u l d i t a ls o b e o n e o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r i e s to t h is s c h e m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C a n y o u te ll u s a b o u t it ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

T h e – t h is is a ls o t h e c o m p a n y t h a t

b e n e fi t te d i n h o u s e s i n B e t h l e h e m a n d a ls o i n h o u s e s i n a r e a s in
Vir g in ia [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d B o t h a v i ll e a n d y o u c a n g o a n d c h e c k s o m e o f
t h e s h o d d y w o r k i n t h o s e a r e a s a n d p o o r p e o p l e a r e m a d e to s ig n
h a p p y l e t t e r s C h a ir p e r s o n .

Yo u e a g e r – y o u s t a y in g i n a s h a c k a n d

then the house you know they are roofing etcetera and then it is not
c o m p le t e d

and

many

other

things

are

s ti ll

o u t s ta n d i n g

but the

c o n tr a c to r w il l c o m e a n d s a y f o r m e t o h a v e th is s i g n a h a p p y le t t e r.
A n d y o u c a n g o a n d b e s e c u r i ty i n t h i s h o u s e . W e w i ll fi n is h s o m e o f
t h e w o r k w h il e y o u t h e r e s o t h a t p e o p l e d o n o t c a u s e p r o b le m s w i t h
y o u r h o u s e . S o p o o r s o m e w o u ld t h e n s i g n t h is n o t k n o w i n g th a t th e y
20

a r e s i g n i n g h a p p y l e t te r s .

H a p p y l e t te r s w o u ld b e th a t th e h o u s e is

fi n i s h e d a n d e v e r y t h in g is t h e r e a n d y o u a r e h a p p y.

A n d in s o m e

in s t a n c e s f o r i n s t a n c e in [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d B o t h a v i ll e p e o p l e w h o w e r e
t a s k e d i n t e r m s g o i n g o u t a n d c h e c k i n g t h e s e th e y a r e fi n d i n g i t v e r y
d i ff ic u l t t o g e t t h i s M r L e e t o r e p a ir s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s a n d i n s o m e
cases he has made some remarks that I would not repeat here

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C h a ir p e r s o n to t h o s e p e o p l e w h o w e r e ta s k e d w i t h t h i s t o m a k e s u r e
t h a t th e y g o a n d c h e c k t h e s e b u il d i n g s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w y o u – a n d w h o w a s t h e o w n e r
o f M a j o r Br ic k s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Mr J a c k i e G o w [ ? ] .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A t t h e ti m e w h e n it w a s s til l n e x t to

Hennaman.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u c o n c l u d e t h a t t o p i c w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o
10

p a g e 2 5 p a r a g r a p h 8 4 t o 8 6 . I f y o u m a y t a k e u s t h r o u g h th o s e
paragraphs?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a i r p e r s o n i t n e e d s t o b e e m p h a s is e d t h a t
t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n c y s c h e m e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e w a s o p e r a ti n g i n
v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts a n d m u n ic ip a li ti e s . C e n tr a l t o i t I w a s t o tr a n s f e r
monies

outside

government

p e r p e t u a lly e x e c u te a p r o j e c t .

department

to

an

e n t it y

that

w o u ld

Once the funds have been placed with

a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t t h e la t t e r a p p o i n ts w i t h o u t a d u e p r o c e s s
s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s a n d t h a t is t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e d is tr i b u ti o n o f s h a r i n g
ill - g o t te n t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y. T h e f e a s t c o m m e n c e s a n d t h e i n d i g e n c e
20

b e a r t h e b r u n t o f t h o s e w h o s e ti m e it is t o e a t . B u t t h e c a v e a t w a s th a t
lo o ti n g o f t h e p u b li c p u r s e a t a s c a l in g e x p l ic a b l e h a s t o b e c a r r i e d o u t
t o a d v a n c e c o r r u p t in t e r e s t o f o u r l e a d e r s s u c h a s M r M a g a s h u l e , Mr
Z w a n e a n d o t h e r s . A n d M r L e e h a s c l o s e li n k s w i th M r M a g a s h u l e i t i s
a known fact.

I c a n n o t r u l e o u t t h e p o s s i b i li ty t h a t M r L e e a n d M s

M a le m b e ’s b u s i n e s s v e n t u r e s w e r e f a c i li ta t e d a n d b l e s s e d b y Mr

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M a g a s h u le e s p e c ia ll y g o in g t o Vo g e lf o n te i n th a t i f w e w e r e t o in v i t e th e
M a y o r t h e t h e n M a y o r in t h e a r e a i n B e t h l e h e m t o c o m e a n d d e a l w i th
t h is a n d c o l la b o r a te w h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n .

I i n v it e t h e

c o m m i s s io n to in v e s t i g a t e .
CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the Mayor?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Tj h e ta n e M o fo k e n g . I t is M r M o fo k e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o f o k e n g ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And - and the name?
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Tjhetane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
in v e s t i g a t e

t h e ir

“I

i n v i te
b u s in e s s

the

Commission

r e l a ti o n s h i p

and

to
th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s th a t l e d t o G o v e r n m e n t r e s o r t in g t o
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n c y s c h e m e f o r s e r v ic e s d e liv e r y
purposes.”
A n d t h i s h a s t o d o w i th th e d e p a r t m e n t s t h a t I h a v e
m e n ti o n e d .

I n s o m e in s ta n c e s C h a ir p e r s o n y o u h a d p e o p l e w h o w e r e

d ir e c t o r s in s o m e d e p a r t m e n t s i n s o m e r e g io n s w h o w o u ld n o t d o
20

a n y th in g .

Th e y - b e c a u s e th e w o r k t h a t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e

d o i n g i s n o w b e i n g c a r r i e d b y th e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts a n d s o m e o f
t h e s e d i r e c t o r s w e r e c o m in g t o t h e o ff i c e to s i g n l e a v e f o r m s a n d
o th e r s .
S o th a t - th a t i s t h e - t h e f r u s t r a t in g i m p a c t o f a l l t h is . Th e
i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts ( in t e r v e n e s ) .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : S o e ff e c ti v e ly w i t h t h is - w i t h th e u s e o f i m p le m e n t in g
a g e n c ie s y o u c o u l d h a v e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e p e r s o n n e l w i t h i n t h e
d e p a r t m e n t w h o a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o t h a t j o b a r e n o t d o i n g th a t jo b b u t
t h a t j o b is b e in g d o n e b y a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t a n d th e d e p a r t m e n t i s
b a s ic a lly p a y i n g tw o s o u r c e s fo r t h e s a m e jo b .
P a y i n g t h e o ffic i a ls t h a t i t e m p l o y e d t o d o t h is k i n d o f jo b a n d
p a y i n g t h e i m p le m e n t in g - i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a ir b e fo r e m o v i n g t o a n e w to p ic

m y le a r n e d c o l le a g u e Mr M a n y i h a s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t i n fo r m a t i o n w h ic h is
a l m o s t i n li n e w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s g iv e n b y M r D u k w a n a
p e r t a in in g t o t h e a p p l ic a t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

W h ic h

you

were

asking

y o u r s e lf

q u e s t io n s a s t o w h a t c o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d w i t h i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y b e I s h o u l d a ll o w h i m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l lo w h i m t o , y e s .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

To j u s t p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d .

important and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I n a ll f a ir n e s s a s w e l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 222 of 278

I t is q u i t e

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

C h a ir i t h a s s i n c e t r a n s p ir e d th a t i n d e e d th e

q u e s t io n th a t th e C o m m i s s io n w a s p u z z l e d w i th a s to w h e t h e r - w h a t
h a p p e n e d to t h e a p p lic a ti o n t h a t w a s b r o u g h t t o t h e H i g h C o u r t in F r e e
S t a te b y t h e M E C N t h i m o t s e M o k h e s i . T h a t m a t t e r h a s b e e n fi n a l is e d .
T h e o r d e r is i n d e e d a s fo ll o w s C h a i r :

t h a t th e a g r e e m e n t s a n d t h e

d e c is i o n s p e r t a i n i n g t h e r e t o a r e r e v i e w e d a n d s e t a s i d e a n d b a r f o r t h e
s e c o n d a n d 4 4 t h a n d 6 5 t h r e s p o n d e n ts in t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n t h a t a c t u a ll y
w a n t e d t o p r o c e e d a n d c h a l l e n g e th e i s s u e s o n t h e m e r it s i n t h e c o u r t
10

b u t fo r th e o t h e r 1 0 3 - 1 0 2 a p p l ic a n t s in d e e d t h e o r d e r w a s g iv e n a n d
the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id n o t o p p o s e ?
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h e y d i d n o t o p p o s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h e d a te o f t h e o r d e r i s 2 6 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . I t i s
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I t is M o n d a y t h is w e e k ?
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : I n d e e d s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t is ju s t a n o r d e r o r

20

t h e r e i s a f u l l j u d g m e n t?
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : C h a ir I a m n o t c e r t a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h i s j u s t c a m e n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

To m e a s - a s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d e a r li e r o n .

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
This would have been part of the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : R e s p o n s e i f i n d e e d M r M o k h e s i …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

H a d r e c e iv e d a n o t ic e th a t h e a l lu d e d t o

e a r l ie r o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Th a t is u s e fu l i n fo r m a ti o n .
Thank you.
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t w o u l d b e a ls o i n te r e s t in g t o l a y o u r

h a n d s to t h e j u d g m e n t C h a ir t o s e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s a n d - a n d a ll th e p a p e r s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A ll t h e p a p e r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w t h e n e x t t o p ic Mr D u k w a n a is

B l a c k y S e o e n o t S u e a s s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e r e fe r t o h i m . N o w c a n y o u
t e ll u s a b o u t h is r e le v a n c e t o th e is s u e s t h a t a r e t o b e d e t e r m i n e d b y
t h is C o m m is s i o n a n d w h a t y o u w is h to h i g h li g h t i n r e l a ti o n t o h i m .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

Th e - s o w h e n I w a s th e M E C f o r E c o n o m ic

D e v e l o p m e n t . Mr B l a c k y S e o e w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e F D C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r a is e y o u r v o ic e a li t tl e b i t a g a i n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I a m s a y i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Br in g …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A t th e ti m e w h e n I w a s M E C a t l e a s t u p u n t il
2 0 1 2 M r S e o e w a s - B l a c k y S e o e w a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d a n d

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
it tr a n s p ir e d t h a t t h e - a t t h e l a te r s t a g e w h a t a c t u a l ly h a p p e n e d t h e
F D C d e c i d e d a s I s a i d e a r l i e r t o d is p o s e o f t h e - s o m e o f t h e p r o p e r t i e s
t h a t th e y h a d . I t - i t h a d o w n e r s h i p o f fi ll in g s ta t io n s . I t h a d b u i ld i n g s .
I t h a d a ls o a n u m b e r o f s tu d e n t a c c o m m o d a t io n e tc e t e r a a n d
t h o s e a s I s a i d w e r e s o u r c e o f r e v e n u e f o r F D C . I d o n o t h a v e t h e - th e
b e n e fi t o f t h e r e a s o n s a n d t h e - th e l o g ic b e h in d t h e F D C d e c i d i n g t h is
m a t t e r.

Pr o b a b ly t h e M E C s t h a t c a m e a f t e r m e w o u l d k n o w w h y t h is

m a t t e r t h a t h a p p e n e d th e w a y i t h a p p e n e d a n d i n - in t h e s a m e v e in
C h a ir p e r s o n th a t s o m e o f t h e s e p e o p l e t h e n b e n e f i t te d a n d s o m e o f
10

t h e s e p e o p le t h a t b e n e fi t t e d i n th e w h o le s c h e m e o f th in g s a r e a l s o in
some boards.
T h e y a r e e i t h e r C h a ir p e r s o n o r m e m b e r s o f th e b o a r d s i n t h e
Fr e e S t a t e a n d t h e c l o s e k n i t g r o u p o f p e o p l e a r o u n d M r M a g a s h u l e . I n
t h is c a s e h e w o u l d h a v e M r Bl a c k y S e o e w h o w o u ld h a v e b e n e f i tt e d a
lo t i n t e r m s o f th e p r o p e r ti e s e t c e t e r a a n d w e w o u ld k n o w a t s o m e
s t a g e u p u n t il 2 0 0 8 t h a t M r B l a c k y S e o e a n d M r M a g a s h u l e w e r e p a r t o f
t h e - w e r e d ir e c t o r s o f a c o m p a n y c a ll e d S a m b a l a n d - a n d a t th e t i m e
C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n M r M a g a s h u l e w a s M E C fo r S p o r t s Mr B l a c k y S e o e
b e n e fi t te d a lo t in te r ms o f p r o m o t io n a n d u s i n g t h e R o b ’s P r o m o ti o n a s

20

t h e c o m p a n y a n d b e c a m e t h e h ig h e s t p a y in g if y o u l ik e o r a m o n g t h e
h i g h e s t p a y in g p r o m o to r s i n b o x i n g a t t h e ti m e b u t i n te r e s t i n g ly t o n o t e
i m m e d i a t e ly

Mr Magashule

moved

to

the

o th e r

department

and

M r K h o ts o S e s i w e ( ? ) c a m e in , i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
T h e - R o b ’s P r o m o ti o n j u s t d i s a p p e a r e d a n d t h e n t h a t w o u l d
t e ll y o u t h e w h o l e s t o r y a n d in th is c a s e M r G l e n N e ts h i v h o d z a a ls o

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
b e i n g p a r t o f th e t i m e s th e To u r i s m B o a r d e tc e t e r a a v e r y c l o s e fr ie n d
o r v e r y, v e r y c l o s e p e r s o n t o Mr M a g a s h u l e .

I k n o w th is f o r a f a c t

C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I k n o w M r G l e n N e t s h iv h o d z a q u i te w e ll a n d - a n d
a ls o M r M a g a s h u le a n d t h e i r r e l a ti o n s h i p c o m i n g b a c k - fa r b a c k fr o m
P a r y s e tc e te r a a n d y o u w il l s e e th e b e n e fi t in s o m e o f t h is a n d t h e - in
f a c t t h e r e w a s s t u d e n t a c c o m m o d a t io n t h a t w e r e g e t t in g - w e r e p u t t in g
s o m e in c o m e i n to t h i s a n d a t s o m e s t a g e t h e s e w e r e g iv e n o r
s u p p o s e d l y p u r c h a s e d b y M r N e ts h iv h o d z a a n d - a n d a s s u c h t h e F D C
w o u ld n o t h a v e e n jo y e d t h e b e n e f i ts o f t h e - u s i n g t h e s e y o u k n o w
10

m o n th ly.
T h e i n c o m e th a t i t w i ll c o m e b a c k i n t o t h e c o ff e r s o f th e F D C .
S o I a m ju s t s t a ti n g t h e f a c t t h a t s o m e t i m e s t h e s e t h in g s l o o k i n n o c e n t
b u t th e - t h e s e s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t n e e d t o b e i n v e s ti g a te d
t h o r o u g h ly t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y e x a c t ly t h is h a s h a p p e n e d a n d t h e e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u l o o k in t o th e R o b ’s I n v e s t m e n t p o r t f o l i o . I t w i ll b e
in t e r e s ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n t o n o te y o u k n o w t h a t fr o m A p r i l 2 0 1 8 t o
M a r c h 2 0 1 9 R o b ’s In v e s t m e n t P r o p e r t y h a d b u il d i n g s lik e c iv il i a n
b u il d in g , h o u s i n g s o c ia l d e v e l o p m e n t.
W h a t t h e c o m p a n y b e n e fi t t e d t h r o u g h r e n t a ls f r o m t h a t p e r i o d

20

2 0 - A p r i l 2 0 1 8 t o M a r c h 2 0 1 9 . I t i s a l m o s t 1 0 4 8 5 2 9 8 a n d t h e s it t in g s o c ia l d e v e l o p m e n t i t is 4 8 6 5 0 0 0 a n d y o u a l s o h a v e s i t ti n g e c o n o m i c
d e v e l o p m e n t i s th e r e - t h e f ir s t fl o o r - 3 7 9 0 0 0 .

S il o d a l E d u c a ti o n is

t h e r e 6 5 4 0 0 0 0 a n d A la n B u il d in g C o r p o r a tiv e G o v e r n a n c e 1 3 3 5 9 0 0 0
a n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t S a m b a l In v e s t m e n t w h e r e M r B la c k y S e o e is
a ls o t h e o w n e r.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
Yo u h a v e Wa r d e n B u il d in g h o u s in g s p o r t s a r t s - s i x m i ll io n ,
b u s i n e s s p a r tn e r s ’ s p o r ts a r ts - s i x m il li o n - 6 .5 . S y fr e ts B u il d in g / O l d
S a n l a m B u il d in g a n d a ll t h e s e fr o m t h a t p e r i o d t o t h is y o u a r e t a lk i n g
a b o u t a l m o s t 6 4 m i lli o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h o - w h o w o u ld b e t h e t e n a n ts o f th o s e
b u il d in g s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I - I s a i d I w a s m e n ti o n i n g s o c ia l - s o c ia l

d e v e l o p m e n t a n d a r ts …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

It would be Government - Government

d e p a r t m e n ts ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - w h a t - w h a t p a g e w e r e y o u r e a d in g fr o m .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

We - we do not have - we do not have

t h e b e n e fi t o f t h a t in f o r m a t io n Mr …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m tr y in g to
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To l o o k f o r t h e s e f i g u r e s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I m u s t - I m u s t in d ic a t e - j u s t to i n d ic a te

C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k i t - t h e r e w a s s o m e m i s c o m m u n i c a t io n b e c a u s e
20

e v e n w i th m y a t t o r n e y s w h e n w e - w h e n I m e t w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s o f
t h e - o f - o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n I - I g a v e t h e m t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n . I - y o u
know …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly e v e r y t i m e I w a s lo o k in g

f o r i t I th o u g h t - b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d t h e y h a d g iv e n t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t o m y

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
a tt o r n e y s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d - a n d t h i s a ls o l e d t o th is k in d o f a

s i tu a ti o n .
CHAIRPERON: Not being included?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : N o t b e in g i n c l u d e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d w e p r e p a r i n g t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : B u t I a m ju s t s t a ti n g t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t h i n k if t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a ll o w s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W e c a n a s k m y - m y le g a l te a m t o a l s o

prepare …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s u p p l e m e n ta r y …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A s u p p l e m e n ta r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Yo u k n o w - a ffi d a v i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h a t w o u ld h a v e a ll th e s e d e ta il s w r it t e n

d o w n a n d e v e r y th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja that would - that would be …
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d i f t h a t is - i s a l lo w e d C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t w o u ld m e a n t h a t w e c a n l e a v e th is m a t t e r
a n d I c a n p r o v id e a d e ta il e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s u p p l e m e n ta r y, j a .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A v e r y, v e r y t o t h e d e t a il s a s w e l l a s t h e

i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts a n d h o w m u c h …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h e s e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s f o u n d …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

R e c e iv e d

fr o m

Government.

So

if

C h a ir p e r s o n a l lo w s t h a t . T h a t is w h a t I w il l s u g g e s t w e d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e v e r y u s e fu l a n d i m p o r t a n t in f o r m a t io n . T h e
o n ly th in g is th a t i f t h e y d o n o t k n o w w h a t i t is th e r e m i g h t b e a
p r o b le m b u t t h e y - i f th e y k n o w w h a t i t i s t h e y m i g h t b e a b l e to s a y
e v e n i f y o u t a l k t o i t n o w. I t is fi n e . I w o u ld r e ly o n t h e m b u t i f t h e y d o
n o t k n o w w h a t i n fo r m a ti o n i s th e y w il l - i t w il l b e b e t te r th a t a
s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t b e d o n e la t e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t w i ll b e b e t te r C h a ir b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r
that when we - when we commenced with our opening …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e r e fe r r e d to q u i t e a n u m b e r o f

d o c u m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o ti c e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o tic e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d a ls o a ff id a v it s a n d I b e l ie v e t h a t …

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r S e o e is o n e o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t

r e a c te d t o a ls o M r D u k w a n a ’s s ta t e m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h o s e th in g s h a v e t o b e p u t t o

M r D u k w a n a f o r h i m a l s o t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a c c o r d i n g ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I n a l l fa ir n e s s s o t h a t w e d o n o t l e a v e

out any …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A ffi d a v it o f a n y w i t n e s s a n d t h a t h e m u s t
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is b e t t e r t o d e a l w it h i t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I w o u ld a g r e e C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h th a t a n d a ls o
b e c a u s e I w a s v e r y r e lu c ta n t i n - in t e r ms o f a ls o p r o v i d i n g s o m e

20

in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e i t i n v o l v e s a ls o s o m e in s t i tu t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I n t e r m s o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

But

safe

to

say

in

some

i n s ta n c e s

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w h a t w o u l d b e d e m o n s t r a te d w i ll b e c o m p a n y A t h e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s a m e c o m p a n y.

C o m p a n y A w o u ld h a v e t h is a n d t h e n t h e h o l d i n g

c o m p a n y. Yo u b u y a b u i ld i n g s a y fo r 2 9 m ill i o n . Yo u s e ll i t t o y o u r o w n
c o m p a n y f o r e i g h t - 8 9 m i ll io n . Yo u a p p r o a c h t h e - t h e b a n k a n d t h e n
y o u b o n d t h e p r o p e r t y f o r 2 0 0 m il li o n .
S o I a m j u s t s a y in g t h e s e a r e s o m e o f t h e t h in g s th a t I th i n k
n o t r e f e r r i n g t o a n y p a r ti c u l a r p e r s o n h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I a m s a y i n g o n e t h i n g t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p r a c t ic e ?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I w o u l d h a v e p r o v i d e d i n t e r m s o f th e

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e h a v e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g fo r a ll t h e s e

p e o p l e i n fa ir n e s s to m a n y o f th e s e p e o p l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I f I c a n b e a ll o w e d t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : P u t i n a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Th a t w ill a ls o b e f a ir t o s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e

that are …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A r e m e n t io n e d h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s f i n e . T h a t is t h e a r r a n g e m e n t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Fr o m p a r a - y e s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I th in k i t l o o k s l ik e w e - w e a ll a g r e e t h a t t h a t is
t h e b e t t e r r o u t e to f o l lo w.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

Ye s C h a ir.

I t - i t is a n d I d id i n ti m a t e to

M r M o k o e n a t h a t w e h a v e o b t a in e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fu r t h e r i n f o r m a ti o n .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: F u r th e r in f o r m a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: P a r t o f i t I t h i n k M r D u k w a n a d e a l s w i t h in h is
supplementary statement …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

A n d I t h i n k i t w o u ld b e - w e h a v e a lr e a d y

c o n ta c t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t e a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: To - t o g e t i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

A n d I th i n k b y w a y o f a s u p p l e m e n t a r y

s t a te m e n t i t w a s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s h o u l d b e fi n e .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: B u t i t i s q u i t e v o l u m in o u s …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: O f th e i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: I t is a s r e c e n t a s la s t J u n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: I t is a s r e c e n t a s J u n e …

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON: As June.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I:

A n d Mr D u k w a n a w il l d e a l w i th s o m e o f th e

a s p e c ts a s w e g o o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S M A N G A S I T H I N I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . T h a n k y o u .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : S o r r y C h a ir o n t h a t n o te t h e - a n d I a m s o r r y
10

t o i n t e r j e c t C h a ir. Th e v e r s i o n h a s b e e n - a d i ff e r e n t v e r s i o n h a s b e e n
p r o v i d e d in t h e s ta t e m e n t o f Mr S e o e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : R e f e r e n c i n g c e r t a i n p a r a g r a p h s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : T h a t h e w a s r e f e r r e d t o , to r e s p o n d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

T h a t M r D u k w a n a i n d e e d h a s a l lu d e d to . S o

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : I t w o u l d o n ly b e f a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

I f in d e e d t h a t v e r s i o n w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e

Mr Dukwana …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I : A n d i t w i ll a d d r e s s s o m e o f th e c o n f u s i o n t h a t

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
is n o w e m a n a ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M Z WA N E L E M A N Y I :

Fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h e i s n o w g iv in g .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m s u r e Mr …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir w e a r e a w a r e a b o u t th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e o n ly p r o b l e m th a t w e o p e r a t e w it h in
the rules …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h o s e d o c u m e n t s th a t w e r e r e c e i v e d
w e r e a s a v e r y - w e r e r e c e i v e d t h is w e e k s o m e o f t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Others last week Friday …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d w i t h a ll f a ir n e s s t o Mr D u k w a n a o r

a n y o n e e ls e o n e c o u ld n o t e v e n h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: There has not been enough time.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f w e w e r e p r o v i d e d w i t h t h is i n fo r m a ti o n
w i t h i n th e ti m e p r e s c r i b e d o n e w o u ld u n d e r s t a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h a t is b e i n g c o n v e y e d t o y o u n o w …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t i n a l l f a ir n e s s a l l t h a t w e s a id w e

s a i d w e w il l c o m p i le a ll th e d o c u m e n t s r e l e v a n t .

W e w i ll m a k e t h e m

a v a i la b le t o M r D u k w a n a a n d h e w il l r e a c t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d h e c a n - h e c a n i f n e c e s s a r y f il e a n

a ffi d a v i t t h a t r e s p o n d s t o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h a t a n d th e n i f - i f t h e r e is a n e e d h e c a n c o m e
b a c k to d e a l w i th a l l o f t h o s e is s u e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d n o t o n l y t h a t. I t w i ll a ls o b e f a ir a n d
10

in t e r e s ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To h a v e t h o s e th a t a r e s u b m i t t in g l e tt e r s
a n d a ffi d a v i ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To a v a il t h e m s e lv e s t o t h e C o m m i s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L e t t h e m c o m e a n d s i t l ik e Mr D u k w a n a .
L e t t h e m b e c o n f r o n t e d w i t h th e i s s u e s a r i s in g fr o m t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t w i ll a ls o g iv e c o m m o n s e n s e a n d

m e a n i n g t o th is p a r a m o u n t c o n c e p t o f fa ir n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
UNKNOWN PERSON: Chair …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s - t h a t is fi n e .
UNKNOWN PERSON: Chair …

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : Th e - th e n o ti c e s w e r e r e c e iv e d a s w e i n d i c a t e d
y e s t e r d a y t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d o n ly o n th e 1 7 t h o f A u g u s t a n d th e y w e r e
responded to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
UNKNOWN PERSON:

A n d th e r e i n d e e d a ls o t a b u la t e a s t o w h a t

o p t io n s a r e a v a il a b l e to t h e r e c e iv i n g p a r ty o f t h a t n o t ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
UNKNOWN PERSON:
10

I f i n d e e d o n e d e c id e s t o r e s p o n d t o th a t in a

f o r m o f a s t a te m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : I t i s a ls o v e r y a c c e p ta b l e b e c a u s e it is a n o p ti o n
t h a t i s a v a il e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : To t h e ir r e s p o n s e . S o
CHAIRPERSON: I - I …
UNKNOWN PERSON: (Intervenes) what Mr Mokoena saying …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
UNKNOWN PERSON:

20

A s f a r a s a v a i li n g th e m s e lv e s a n d b e i n g

s u b j e c t e d t o c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n o r w h a t e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : T h e y h a v e e x e r c is e d ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t h i n k - I t h i n k t h e b o t t o m l i n e is t h a t w h a t

M r M o k o e n a is s a y i n g is th o s e s t a t e m e n ts h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d . T h e r e
m a y b e s o m e t h i n g a b o u t w h e n t h e y w e r e r e c e iv e d b u t h e i s s a y in g

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t h e r e h a s n o t b e e n e n o u g h ti m e f o r - f o r th e m t o b e g i v e n to
M r D u k w a n a t o c o n s i d e r t h e m b u t a l s o p a r t o f w h a t th e l e g a l t e a m a n d
t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o a f t e r r e c e iv i n g s u c h r e s p o n s e s i s
t o s e e w h e th e r th e r e is a n y t h in g to i n v e s t ig a t e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e
c o n te n ts o f th o s e s t a t e m e n t s a n d - a n d w h e n t h a t h a s b e e n d o n e th e n
t h e y c o m e b a c k to th e l e g a l t e a m to s a y o k a y t h is i s w h a t w e fi n d a b o u t
what is said here.
M a y b e th is is tr u e o r th is is n o t tr u e .
a b o u t.
10

T h is w e a r e n o t s u r e

So when it is put to the witness it - it ensures that there is

f a ir n e s s . I t h i n k w h a t - w h a t h e i s s i m p l y s a y in g is y e s a n d o p p o r t u n i ty
w i ll b e c r e a t e d b u t i t m ig h t n o t b e t h e r ig h t ti m e n o w b e c a u s e t h e r e h a s
n o t b e e n e n o u g h ti m e f o r Mr D u k w a n a t o c o n s i d e r t h e m .
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : Ac c e p t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : B u t t h e ti m e t h e h o r s e h a s a lr e a d y b o l te d a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll n o , n o , n o b o d y c a n - n o b o d y c a n - c a n s a y t h a t
y o u r c li e n t’s v e r s io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n p u t t o Mr D u k w a n a a s o f to d a y if
it i s n o t p u t b u t I th in k t h a t m o s t o f th e t i m e w h a t w e h a v e h e a r d s i n c e
la s t y e a r is t h a t t h e v e r s i o n s h a v e c o m e la t e r t h a n t h e t i m e w h e n t h e

20

w i t n e s s h a s g iv e n e v id e n c e b e c a u s e e v e n t h o s e w h o a p p ly f o r l e a v e to
c r o s s - e x a m in e u s u a ll y t h e y - th e y c o m e la t e a n d s o o n .
I t h i n k a s l o n g a s t h e p u b l ic u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t t h e r e i s a n o t h e r
v e r s i o n t h a t - t h a t m a y b e c o m in g o r th a t is - th a t w il l b e p u t t o h i m .
U N K N O W N P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

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ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir a ls o t o c la r i fy o n e o r t w o t h i n g s .

M r Bl a c k y S e o e w a s s e r v e d w i th a R u le 3 . 3 ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r v o ic e h a s g o n e d o w n a g a i n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

H e w a s - h e w a s s e r v e d w i th a 3 . 3

N o t ic e o n 1 A u g u s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 2 6 d a y s b e f o r e t o d a y ’s h e a r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : H e w a s c o n s u l t e d w i th …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B y th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s o n t h r e e o c c a s i o n s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d I t h in k w e s h o u l d p l a c e t h o s e o n

record …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e s t a t e m e n t th a t w e a r e r e c e iv in g
n o w i s - w e w i ll l e a v e i t th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . L e t u s le a v e i t o n t h e b a s is th a t I h a v e i n d ic a t e d .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s l e a v e i t o n th a t b a s is .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t t h e r e a r e fa c ts t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e

things.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e a r e a t 5 o ’ c l o c k . L e t u s …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M o v e o n C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s t r y a n d - a n d fi n is h b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e c l o s e t o fi n i s h in g .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: We are.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: From page 27 paragraph 92 you are then
d e a li n g w i t h a p e r s o n w h o i s a fo r m e r - w h o is t h e f o r m e r e m p l o y e e o f
t h e Fr e e S t a t e L e g i s l a tu r e . C a n y o u g iv e u s th e n a m e a n d g i v e u s th e
c o n te x t u p o n w h ic h w e h a v e t o u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a i d fr o m p a g e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 2 7 p a r a g r a p h 9 2 Mr C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To p a r a g r a p h 9 5 .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I - I t h o u g h t C h a ir p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h i s w il l a ls o i n c l u d e i n t e r m s o f w h a t w e

have agreed on …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
20

B e c a u s e i t f a lls i n to t h e e l e m e n t o f th e

p r o p e r ti e s . S o th a t w e g i v e a l l th e d e t a i ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o h .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o I w i ll s u g g e s t th a t th is - th is s h o u l d b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d e a l w i t h i t l a t e r ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e w ill d e a l a t s o m e p o i n t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is fi n e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A lr i g h t .

c o n c e p t t h a t m ig h t b e k n o w n t o m a n y.

We can now move to the
S t a r ti n g f r o m p a g e 2 8 a t y o u r

p a r a g r a p h G a n d i t is O p e r a ti o n H l a s e l a a n d y o u c a n te ll t h e C h a ir
a b o u t i t a n d i ts r e l e v a n c e t o y o u r te s t i m o n y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e ti m e in 2 0 0 9 a f te r t h e

e l e c ti o n s t h e P r e m i e r o f - t h e n e w ly e l e c t e d P r e m i e r M r M a g a s h u l e
o r d e r e d a l l m e m b e r s o f th e E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e t h a t w e r e n e w ly
a p p o i n t e d a s m e m b e r s o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o m m i t t e e to a t t e n d a s e r v ic e
10

t h a t w a s h e l d i n B l o e m f o n t e i n b y a c h u r c h c a l le d ( i n d is t in c t) .

An

A p o s t o l ic C h u r c h a n d d u r i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s a b i g b a n n e r - t h a t w a s
2009.
T h e r e w a s a b ig b a n n e r th a t w a s w r i t t e n O p e r a ti o n H l a s e la
o n e m il li o n m e m b e r s b y D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9 a n d a f te r t h e - th e s e r v ic e
when …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e a n M E C a t t h e ti m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s . W e w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a t t e n d e d .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : W e w e r e n e w l y a p p o i n t e d M E C s …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

In 2 0 0 9 a n d th e n t h e - I a m ju s t s c r a tc h i n g

t h e o r ig in o f t h is t h i n g - a n d M r M a g a s h u l e n o t ic e d t h a t a n d w h e n i t w a s
ti m e - w h e n h e w a s g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o a d d r e s s t h e c o n g r e g a te s h e
t h e n a s k e d p e r m is s io n fr o m t h e h e a d o f t h e c h u r c h to u s e t h e o p e r a t io n
Hlasela.

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CHAIRPERSON: The name or - that phrase?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s a n d i t w a s g r a n t e d a n d t h e n b e c a u s e h e
w a s s a y i n g t h is G o v e r n m e n t w h o u s e t o - t o - H la s e l a is t o a t t a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : S o i t w o u ld b e u s e d to a t t a c k p o v e r t y, c r i m e
everything …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : A n d t h e n w h e n w e c a m e b a c k t h e r e w a s t h i s
O p e r a t io n H l a s e l a .

It w a s a ll o v e r.

When we started we would -

d e p a r t m e n ts w o u l d b e a s k e d t h a t - i f i t g o e s to W e lk o m f o r i n s t a n c e
d e p a r t m e n ts a s k e d to i n d ic a te w h a t is i t t h a t t h e y w o u ld c o n tr ib u t e i n
t e r m s o f d e v e lo p m e n t in t h e a r e a a n d s o d e p a r t m e n ts w il l - w il l t h e n d o
that.
T h a t a s - a s w h e n h e s t a r te d e a r li e r a n d w h a t w a s v e r y
in t e r e s ti n g in th a t w a s th e f a c t th a t t h e P r e m ie r o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e - th e
t h e n P r e m ie r o f t h e Fr e e S t a te w o u l d b e h a v i n g t h i s m ic a n d s o m e
p e o p l e w o u ld c o m e a n d t h e n a p e r s o n w o u l d s a y I a m s o a n d s o .
20

I

h a v e a d e g r e e in s p o r ts m a n a g e m e n t a n d a l l th is a n d t h e p e r s o n w o u ld
t h e n b e t h e r e a n d th e r e y o u w o u l d b e to l d y o u a r e - y o u a r e a p p o i n te d .
C o m e - g o t o th is d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e n t h e y w o u ld d e a l w i t h
t h e m a t t e r o r s o m e p e o p l e w o u ld t h e n w r it e t h e d e t a i ls - w h o everything.

S o i t c r e a t e d t h e w h o l e e x c i t e m e n t th a t y o u g o t a p e r s o n

w h o m o v e s - w h o i s m o v i n g , w h o is i m p l e m e n ti n g b u t it w a s m a d e

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d i ff ic u l t f o r o ffic i a ls b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e a l l o f y o u a s M E C s , o ffi c i a l s ,
s e n i o r o ffic i a ls y o u m u s t b e t h e r e a n d w h e n t h is th in g h a p p e n s .
S o i t c r e a te d q u i t e a p r o b l e m a n d a t t h e ti m e t h e n t h e A N C
t h e n w a n te d to d e a l w it h th e m a t te r s o t h a t y o u g iv e i t c o n t e n t a n d t h e
S e c r e t a r y a t t h e t i m e w a s C o mr a d e B e s a n i - S i b o n g il e B e s a n i . W e - w e
tr i e d to - t o b r in g - t o b r i n g s o m e c o n t e n t i n to t h a t a n d - a n d m a k e s u r e
t h a t i t is a b o u t c o o r d i n a ti o n o f G o v e r n m e n t w o r k a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t
y o u d e s tr o y t h e s e la w s a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t G o v e r n m e n t w o r k s a s
G o v e r n m e n t n o t d e p a r t m e n t g o i n g t h e r e b u t li t tl e d i d w e k n o w t h a t i t
10

w a s n o t th is n o b l e i d e a .
I t i s a c tu a lly t o c e n tr a l is e e v e r y t h i n g i n th is o ff ic e .

For

in s t a n c e I w il l m a k e a n e x a m p l e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t I - y o u k n o w - I
headed.

It w i ll b e a s w e - o n e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t a s a n M E C y o u a r e

a c t u a ll y p l a y in g y o u r r o l e o f a d v is i n g t h e P r e m i e r.

It is your

r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o p r o t e c t t h e P r e m ie r a n d m a k e s u r e w h a t e v e r c o m e s t o
t h e p e r e n n i a l h e a d o f G o v e r n m e n t a t t h e t i m e is p r o c e s s e d p r o p e r ly a n d
t h is is w h a t w e t h o u g h t w e w o u l d d o a n d d o t h a t b u t it w a s d i ff ic u l t
b e c a u s e Mr M a g a s h u l e t h e P r e m ie r t h e n w o u ld m e e t w it h th e o ff ic ia ls
w i t h o u t u s k n o w in g .
20

W e w o u l d b e t h e r e w it h - s o m e w o u l d n o t e v e n b e t h e H O D s
in t h e d e p a r t m e n t . I t w o u l d b e p e o p l e w h o a r e - y o u k n o w - a p p o in t e d
t o d e a l w i th H l a s e l a Pr o je c t s .

In t h e c a s e - i n m y c a s e f o r in s t a n c e

w h e n t h e p r o j e c t w a s g o i n g t o H l a s e la w a s v i s i ti n g - th e y h a v e a b o u t
fi v e to w n s a n d t h e - t h e la t e D r M a t h e b u l a t h e n c a m e t o m e t o s a y h e
w a s fr o m a m e e t in g a n d t h e m e e ti n g w a n t e d - i n t h e m e e t i n g t h e y w e r e

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
t o l d b y th e Pr e m i e r t h a t th e y m u s t c o n t r i b u t e a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s
s u p p o s e d t o c o n tr i b u t e 5 0 0 0 0 p e r to w n f o r - f o r c a r w a s h e s a n d w h e n
t h e y c a m e t o m e d e m a n d i n g t h a t I a d v is e d th e m t h a t I w il l s p e a k t o t h e
P r e m i e r.
I d i d th a t e x a c tl y t o s a y w e c a n n o t d o t h i s i n t h is p a r t ic u l a r
w a y. H e c r e a t e d s o m e p r o b l e ms b u t w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o s a y is t h is is
w h a t y o u w o u ld fi n d t h a t H l a s e la e n d e d u p n o t b e i n g w h a t th e c o n c e p t
t h a t y o u s e e th e r e th a t I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t - t h a t i t - it w i ll - it w a s
m e a n t t o f a c i li t a t e g o o d g o v e r n a n c e , e ff e c tiv e le a d e r s h i p , e ffe c t iv e
10

s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y, c o o r d i n a t i o n o f a c t iv i t ie s , t o m a k e s u r e t h a t s e r v ic e s
a r e d e l iv e r e d .
I n s te a d

it

ended

up

ensuring

total

c o n tr o l

of

p u b l ic

p r o c u r e m e n t b y t h e - b y th e Pr e m i e r. I t b e c a m e c l e a r t h a t t h e P r e m i e r
w a n t e d t o k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t e a c h d e p a r t m e n t w a s d o i n g a n d m a k e s u r e
t h a t y o u k n o w - s o - a n d y o u a r e a b l e t o d ir e c t e v e r y t h i n g a n d m a k e
s u r e t h a t y o u a r e i n c o n tr o l a n d - a n d i t - i t g o e s a s I a m s a y i n g t h is
O p e r a t io n H l a s e l a .
I n s o m e in s ta n c e s it a ff e c te d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t . W e e n d e d u p tr e a t i n g
L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a s w e a r e a b i g b r o t h e r a s th e p r o v i n c e a n d a t a n y
20

g iv e n t i m e a m e e t in g w il l b e c a l l e d a n d t h e n a ll C F O s o r a ll M u n ic i p a l
M a n a g e r s a n d M a y o r s a r e c a ll e d .

S o y o u l e a v e w h a te v e r.

Yo u c o m e

o v e r. I t w a s n o t s o m e t h i n g th a t w il l b e p r o p e r ly p l a n n e d . R e s p e c ti n g
t h is o t h e r s p h e r e o f G o v e r n m e n t a n d w h a t t h e C o n s t i tu t io n s ti p u l a te d
t h a t y o u n e e d t o - i t h a s a r o l e to p la y a n d a ls o y o u d o n o t n e e d t o b e
e n c r o a c h in g i n t o t h e s p a c e o f t h e o t h e r s p h e r e o f G o v e r n m e n t b u t fr o m

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ti m e t o ti m e p r o v i n c i a l g o v e r n m e n t n e e d e d t o h e l p t h e m u n ic i p a l i ti e s i n
t e r m s o f d e a li n g w i th t h e ir w o r k a n d y o u n e e d e d a ls o to h a v e th a t i n t e r
r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n N a t io n a l , P r o v i n c i a l a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t b u t a s
I a m s a y i n g H l a s e l a d e s tr o y e d a ll t h a t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w t e ll m e in

terms of the

a p p o i n t m e n ts th a t y o u a ll u d e d t o t h a t y o u w i ll b e r e q u ir e d o r i n s tr u c t e d
t o m a k e w il l t h e r e b e a n y p r o c e s s e s t h a t a r e f o l lo w e d , w e r e t h e r e a n y
v a c a n c ie s f o r th o s e p o s i ti o n s ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Yo u k n o w I r e m e m b e r w h e n w e h a d a

m e e ti n g in W e lk o m o f th e u n e m p l o y e d g r a d u a te s , t h e h a ll w a s fi ll e d ,
t h e h a ll w a s f u ll , a n d e v e r y o n e w o u l d r a is e w h a t e v e r t h e y h a v e
e v e r y t h i n g a n d a ll th a t a n d p e o p l e w il l b e p r o m is e d y o u m u s t g o t h e r e ,
y o u m u s t g o th e r e , y o u m u s t g o t h e r e . I n o n e o c c a s io n C h a ir p e r s o n I
w a s c o n fr o n te d b y p e o p l e w h o w e r e a p p o i n te d a t O p e r a ti o n H la s e l a
m e e ti n g , w h o c a m e t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e y w e r e s a y in g th e y a r e
s e n t,

they

must

start

today

and

at

the

ti m e

there

were

no

a d v e r t is e m e n t, t h e r e w a s o n v a c a n c y a n d a l l I d i d w a s t o s a y I d i d n o t
a p p o i n t y o u , d id y o u s e e m e , t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a v i n g a n a d v e r t is e m e n t ,
no, but now how do you come, you have never been, you have never
20

g o n e t o a n in t e r v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n e v e r a p p l ie d f o r a jo b .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Yo u h a v e n e v e r a p p li e d , y o u h a v e n o t g o n e

t o a n i n t e r v ie w, b u t h e r e y o u c o m e a n d y o u w a n t t o , y o u s a y y o u w e r e
s e n t a n d t h e n I s e n t t h e m t o t h e Pr e m i e r, I e v e n p h o n e d h i m to s a y
there are two people who are here and then I am sending them, he said

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
p l e a s e a t t e n d to t h e m , I s a id I c a n ’ t , I d o n ’ t h a v e a n y s p a c e .
S o I a m ju s t s a y i n g th is w a s a n o b l e i d e a w h e n it s t a r t e d , b u t
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e th e y n o t s e n t t o a t l e a s t , a t t h e s e H l a s e la

m e e ti n g s w a s d i d t h e P r e m i e r m a y b e n o t s a y p l e a s e g o to t h a t
d e p a r t m e n t a n d s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a v a c a n c y a n d s o t h a t y o u c a n
a p p ly a n d t h e n – a n d s o o n , d i d h e s a y y o u a r e a p p o i n t e d , y o u a r e
g o i n g t o s ta r t o n t h a t a n d t h a t d a y ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

I n s o m e in s t a n c e s C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y w o u l d

s a y y o u , if y o u s a y a n d t h e n y o u c o m e a n d s a y I h a v e th is a n d y o u s a y
o k a y g o t o d e p a r t m e n t s o a n d s o , i n s o m e in s t a n c e s o k a y y o u m a y
s t a r t , y o u a r e a p p o i n t e d , a n d y o u c o u l d s e e t h e e x c i te m e n t in t h e h a ll ,
p e o p l e h a d w o r k e d o u t t h a t y e s th e P r e m i e r is w o r k i n g , y o u a r e
a p p o i n t e d i n th is , y o u a r e a p p o i n te d , i n s o m e in s t a n c e s I t h i n k i t a ls o
b e c a m e u n b e a r a b l e t o h i m t o r e a lis e th a t i t i s n o t s u s ta i n a b l e to d e a l
with the matter in that fashion but as I am saying it became very
d i ff ic u l t a ls o t o p r o t e c t t h e P r e m ie r i n th e s e n s e th a t w h e n y o u g e t i n t o
– h e w i ll b e t h e o n e w h o i n tr o d u c e s h is t e a m , h e w il l b e th e o n e w h o i s
t h e p r o j e c t y o u k n o w a s M E C o f th e w h o le e v e n t , fr o m m o r n in g u p u n t il

20

w e l e a v e i t w il l b e h i m w i t h t h e m i c a n d e n g a g in g p e o p l e , s o i t b e c a m e ,
it c r e a t e d a c u lt i f y o u li k e , h e w a s t h e n s e e n a s t h is p e r s o n w h o is a
m o v e r, w h o is d o i n g a l l th e s e t h i n g s , b u t t h e u n f o r tu n a te t h i n g y o u w e r e
p u t t in g M E C ’s i n a c o r n e r, M E C ’s i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d n o t h a v e
b u d g e t e d a n y t h i n g fo r t h a t p a r ti c u l a r a r e a , y o u g e t i n to a h a ll a n d t h e
M E C o f P u b l ic W o r k s s e e s t h a t h e y t h e r e ’s s o m e th i n g w r o n g h e r e , a n d

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
w h e n s h e i s a s k e d b e c a u s e w e w e r e m a d e to s ta n d u p a n d s a y t h i s i s
w h a t I w i ll d o a n d th is is w h a t I w i ll d o a n d th e n a p e r s o n w i ll s t a n d u p
a n d s a y n o I a m g o in g to f ix th is h a ll , I a m g o i n g t o d o th is , I a m g o i n g
t o d o th a t , a n d I m e a n i t b e c a m e a m o c k e r y i f y o u l ik e , a n d t h i s is t h e
p r o b le m t h a t w e e x p e r i e n c e d a n d e v e n i f w e t r i e d b u t it w a s w o r k i n g f o r
h i m i n t e r m s o f y o u k n o w c r e a t in g th a t e u p h o r i a a n d p e o p le g e t t in g
e x c i te d , i t w a s g o o d fo r t h a t , b u t u n fo r tu n a t e l y i t w a s a n ig h t m a r e fo r
e v e n a d m i n i s t r a t o r s i n te r ms o f w h a t y o u n e e d t o d o , b u t a ls o c a u s in g
p r o b le m s , b e c a u s e w e w o u l d h a v e a p e r s o n i n a p a r ti c u l a r s p a c e , w h o
10

h a s b e e n i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t q u i te a l o n g ti m e , n o p r o m o ti o n , y o u c o m e
in a n d th e n y o u a p p o i n t a D e p u ty D ir e c t o r o r s o m e th i n g w i th o u t g o i n g
t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s e s s o I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h i s b e c a m e a p r o b l e m , th is
o p e r a ti o n H l a s e l a i n s t e a d o f h e lp in g b u t f o r o th e r p e o p le o u t t h e r e a s i t
w a s a n e x c it e m e n t , i t c r e a t e d e x c i t e m e n t .
I t c r e a te d y o u k n o w i n s o m e i n s ta n c e s C h a ir p e r s o n i n Vir g i n i a
ju s t to m a k e a n e x a m p l e , a p a i n f u l e x p e r i e n c e y o u k n o w h a p p e n e d .
T h e r e is a m o t h e r w h o is s a y i n g w i th a f a m il y e tc e t e r a in a s h a c k a n d
a c r o s s t h e s tr e e t i t is a t w o - r o o m e d h o u s e a n d a s h a c k a n d b e c a u s e i t
w a s d e c id e d t h a t w e a r e g o i n g to d e s tr o y t h e t w o - r o o m e d h o u s e s a n d

20

t h e n b u i ld t h e b e t t e r h o u s e s f o r t h e s e p e o p le a n d t h is m o t h e r w h e n
p e o p l e w e r e d e s tr o y i n g y o u k n o w t h e P r e m i e r w o u l d g e t i n t o th is
G a n d a g a n d a a n d g e t in t o th e h o u s e a n d d e s tr o y t h e h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e P r e mi e r w o u l d d r iv e t h e tr a c t o r ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

H e w i ll b e t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , d e m o n s tr a t in g

a n d t h e n h e g o e s t h e r e a n d d e s tr o y s t h is a n d p e o p l e a r e e x c i t e d . T h is

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m o t h e r t h e n s a i d w h y d o n ’ t y o u t a k e m y s id e a n d b u i ld a h o u s e t h e r e
a n d m o v e m e fr o m t h is m u k u k u a n d p l e a s e a n d g e t m e t h is t w o - r o o m e d
at least, but you know you could not, we could not answer these
b e c a u s e a lr e a d y t h e h o u s e w a s d o n e .
S o I a m j u s t i n d ic a ti n g .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e t h e s h a c k s b e i n g d e s tr o y e d b e f o r e a n o th e r

h o u s e i s b e i n g b u il t o r w h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

W e ll y o u g e t t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u d o n ’t

h a v e t h e ( i n d is t in c t) o f a h o u s e e tc e t e r a , y o u g e t t h e r e j u s t to
10

d e m o n s t r a t e th a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o w o r k a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld b e to l d w e
w i ll g e t a c c o m m o d a t io n s o m e w h e r e fo r y o u . I n s o m e i n s t a n c e s w e h a d
f a m ili e s t h a t s t a y e d l o n g e r b e c a u s e t h e s e w e r e n o t f o r th c o m i n g , b u t a s
I a m s a y in g i t is – i t w o u l d h a p p e n i n s o m e a r e a s , i n s o m e a r e a s w h e n
s o m e o f t h e th in g s w o r k e d a n d t h in g s w e r e , p e o p le w o u l d b e h a p p y b u t
in s o m e c a s e s y o u w ill fi n d w e w il l l e a v e , th e r e ’s e x c i t e m e n t w h e n w e
a r e t h e r e , w e l e a v e a n d n o th in g a c tu a lly h a p p e n s , e v e n p e o p l e w h o
w e r e p r o m is e d t h a t t h e y w il l g o b a c k a n d d o t h i s a n d d o t h is i t w i ll n o t
be done.
S o I a m j u s t s a y in g t h is c r e a t e d a l o t o f p r o b le m f o r u s a s

20

M E C ’s a n d f o r a d m i n i s tr a t o r s b u t i t w a s a n o b l e id e a a n d p l a n n e d
p r o p e r ly i t w o u ld h a v e h e l p e d t h e P r o v i n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s y o u a r e to u c h in g a ls o o n a to p i c

w h ic h t h e C h a i r h a v e h e a r d fr o m m a n y w it n e s s e s i n o th e r s tr e a m s
p e r t a in in g

to

the

TNA,

and

how

the

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media

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s ,

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e s o u r c e d , w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t w it h in
t h e c o n te x t o f th e Fr e e S t a t e a n d w h a t y o u k n o w.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I f th e C h a ir p e r s o n a l l o w s . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

. . . t h e r e ’s d e t a i le d i n f o r m a ti o n w it h r e g a r d

t o th is , I w o u ld s u g g e s t t h a t w o u l d o u tl i n e e v e r y t h i n g , I w o u l d s u g g e s t
t h a t fr o m t h is fi le w e p r e p a r e s o m e t h i n g in s t e a d o f d e a l i n g w i th i t
piecemeal.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, n o t h a t ’s f in e .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d th e n e x t t o p ic , th e E x e c u t iv e

C o u n c il M e e ti n g s , y o u d id a l l u d e to i t b u t I t h i n k y o u m i g h t w a n t t o
e l a b o r a t e o n th a t to p i c .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u d e li b e r a t e l y s k i p th e o t h e r to p ic s o r h e h a s

d e a lt w i t h th e m . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o h e h a s d e a lt w i t h th e m C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a n d t h e s c h o l a r s h i p , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I t is O p e r a t io n H l a s e l a .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k th e r e is s o m e b o d y w h o w i s h e s t o s a y

something?
20

ADV SMANGA SETHENE:

I th in k h e s k ip p e d p a g e ( i n d i s t i n c t –

m ic r o p h o n e o ff) C o m m is s i o n e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o t h a t is s t ill c o m i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

G w a s O p e r a t io n H la s e la , H t h a t is

w h e r e w e a r e C h a ir.

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th a t is w h a t I s u g g e s t e d I a s k e d

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t i f I c a n b e g iv e n t h e p e r m is s i o n t o p r o v i d e d e ta il e d
in f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d th a t ’s w h y t h e n I w e n t t o I.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e h a v e a g r e e d t h a t M e d i a a n d C o m m u n ic a t i o n s w i ll
b e d e a l t w i th la t e r b e c a u s e y o u w a n t t o s u p p ly m o r e i n f o r m a ti o n .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d t h a t ’s w h y C h a ir w e a r e th e n o n

page 30.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

T h e n t h a t ’s I?

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A lr i g h t.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n i n ti m e s o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a n d

a ls o w h a t g o v e r n s t h e Pr o v i n c e a s t h e E x e c u ti v e C o u n c i l w o u l d b e y o u r
20

c a b i n e t a n d p e o p l e w h o s i t i n E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il w o u l d b e p e o p le w h o h
h a v e t a k e n a o a t h o f c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a n d a l l th o s e th i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

A n d t h a t w o u l d b e t h e M E C ’s a n d t h e

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a n d a p e r s o n w o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d a s a S e c r e t a r y o f
t h e – o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il .

My experience throughout, I have

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28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
s e r v e d in a n u m b e r o f t h e s e w i t h a n u m b e r o f o t h e r P r e m i e r s , b u t w h e n
it c a m e t o 2 0 0 9 i n th is c a s e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w o u l d h a v e j u s t t o p r o t e c t
t h e E x e c u t iv e t h e r e w e r e p r o c e s s e s t h a t w o u ld b e p u t i n p la c e , s u b c o m m i t t e e s o f c a b i n e t o r o f E x e c u ti v e C o m m i t t e e e t c e t e r a a n d m a k i n g
s u r e y o u p r o c e s s a n y th in g t h a t n e e d s t o s e r v e b e f o r e t h e E x e c u t iv e
C o u n c il .
S o m e t h i n g v e r y s tr a n g e s t a r te d h a p p e n i n g , i n t h is c a s e y o u
w o u ld h a v e a n Ex c o m e e ti n g s t a r ti n g a t n i n e o ’c l o c k . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m o r n in g ?
10

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

In t h e m o r n i n g , t h a t ’s e v e r y s e c o n d

W e d n e s d a y, i t s t a r ts a t n in e o ’c l o c k a n d o n c e y o u a r e t h e r e y o u w i ll
fi n d t h a t y o u h a v e H O D ’s , C F O ’s i n t h e m e e t in g , h u g e , y o u k n o w h u g e
c h u r c h n o w a n d y o u th e n g e t p e o p l e c o m i n g i n t o m a k e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
B u s i n e s s p e o p le w o u ld c o m e i n a n d m a k e p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d i n s o m e
in s t a n c e s y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t t h e r e w a s c o n t a c t b e t w e e n t h e s e p e o p le
a n d t h e C h a ir a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o is c h a ir in g , i n t h is c a s e t h e Pr e m i e r,
a n d t h e y w ill a l w a y s c o m e f r o m t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e m ie r, m e a n in g t h e y
w o u ld h a v e s t a r te d t h e r e a n d t h e P r e m i e r w o u ld t h e n t a k e t h e m t o t h e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il s o w h a t w o u ld th e n h a p p e n i n t h o s e m e e ti n g s y o u
20

w o u ld m a k e a p r e s e n t a ti o n , y o u li s t e n to p r e s e n t a ti o n s C h a i r p e r s o n , I
a m n o t e x a g g e r a ti n g t h is , fr o m n in e o ’c l o c k a n d i n s o m e o f t h e s e c a s e s
t e n o ’c lo c k u p u n ti l f o u r o ’c l o c k , y o u li s te n i n g t o p r e s e n t a ti o n s , p e o p l e
p r e s e n t a n d t h e y l e a v e a n d th e n t h e i m p r e s s io n c r e a t e d a t t h a t ti m e is
t h a t t h e o ff ic ia ls w h o a r e t h e r e a n d t h e n a s t h e C h a i r I th e n s a y t o y o u ,
s a y y o u c o m e a n d i n tr o d u c e th a t y o u c a n c o n s tr u c t a r o a d u s in g t h is

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p a r t ic u l a r m e t h o d e tc e t e r a a n d th e q u e s ti o n w o u l d t h e n c o m e in a ft e r
in t e r r o g a ti o n , a f t e r p r e s e n ta t io n i f w e a r e t o g iv e y o u s o m e t h i n g , a
s p a c e th e r e a n d y o u p il o t th is , w o u ld y o u a g r e e to s u c h a t h i n g , a n d
u l ti m a t e ly t h e b u s in e s s p e r s o n w i ll s a y y e s , a n d n o w y o u ’v e t h e M E C ,
y o u ’v e g o t t h e H O D , y o u ’ v e g o t t h e C F O , t h e y ’r e s i t ti n g t h e r e a n d o n c e
t h e p e r s o n i s t h e n , o n c e h e a g r e e s a n d th e n r e f e r to t h e H O D , t h e
p r o b le m t h a t t h e p e r s o n h a d a g r e e d t o d o y o u k n o w a p i lo t s o y o u a r e
s e n t to a d e p a r t m e n t t o f a c il it a t e th a t , s o t h e H O D w o u l d n o t s a y n o ,
t h e M E C ’s w e r e t h e r e , th e e x e c u ti v e w a s t h e r e , s o th e y w o u l d t h e n ta k e
10

t h e m a t te r a n d y o u s ta r t d o in g t h e w o r k a n d b e fo r e y o u k n o w t h is
c o m p a n y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p o i n te d w i t h o u t f o ll o w i n g p r o c e s s e s
e tc e t e r a a n d d o s o m e w o r k , b u t w h a t a c t u a l ly a ls o c r e a te d p r o b l e ms is
t h a t a f t e r th a t w h e n y o u n o w g o d o w n w e n o r m a l ly s a i d s t a r t, y o u g o to
t h e e i g h th f lo o r a n d t h e n w h e n y o u g o t o t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il y o u g o
t o th e f o u r th f l o o r, a n d t h e n y o u w o u l d b e s i tt i n g a s a n e x e c u t iv e a n d
y o u w i ll n o t ta k e m a t t e r s th a t w e r e c o m in g fr o m t h e r e , fr o m t h e
p r e s e n t a ti o n s th a t y o u – y o u s t a r t w i t h th e A g e n d a o f t h e C o u n c il a n d
y o u f i n is h w i t h t h e A g e n d a , b u t y o u w o u l d s e e t h in g s s t a r ti n g t o h a p p e n
a n d p e o p l e w o u l d d o t h i n g s a n d y o u w il l s e e m y p r o b l e m w it h t h is a n d I

20

a ls o r a i s e d th is s p e c if ic a l ly w i t h t h e C h a ir t o s a y w e n e e d t o a v o i d a n d
w o r k b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e c o m m i t t e e s e s t a b li s h e d , s o w h o e v e r w a n t e d
t o c o m e a n d m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n m u s t s t a r t t h e r e , s o le t ’s y o u k n o w
y o u p r o c e s s e v e r y th i n g . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld s t a r t w i t h a s u b - c o m m i t t e e .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Go to the sub-committee and the sub-

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c o m m i t t e e w il l b e th e o n e th a t w i ll c o m e a n d m a k e a s u b m i s s i o n a n d
c o m e a n d m a k e t h is s u b m i s s io n t o t h e E x e c u tiv e .

Th e s u b - c o m m i t t e e

w i ll d e t e r m i n e w h e th e r t h i s m a tt e r n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i th i n a p a r tic u la r
w a y w i t h o u t i t s e r v i n g b e f o r e t h e E x e c u tiv e . W i th o u t th a t , w i t h o u t t h a t
p r o c e s s in g o p p o r t u n i ty y o u a r e o p e n in g t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l t o a
w h o le r a n g e o f t h i n g s a n d th a t w a s t h e p r o b l e m th a t w e e x p e r i e n c e d ,
b u t e v e r y ti m e t h e – y o u r a is e t h e m a t t e r th e th e n P r e m ie r w o u l d s a y
t h is is – y o u c a n n o t c o n tr o l m e , y o u k n o w y o u w a n t t o m a n a g e m e , t h is
is m y w a y o f d o i n g t h in g s , y o u b e t te r w a i t f o r y o u r m o m e n t , s o a t t h e
10

e n d y o u d e c id e y o u k n o w .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w a i t f o r y o u r m o m e n t t o b e Pr e m i e r o r w h a t ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s , y e s , a n d f o r n o w i t i s b e i n g c o n tr o l l e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

S o a ll o w m e t o d o a s I fe e l , a n d t h is a l s o a s

w a y o f a n e x a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d I t h i n k t h e – w h a t I a m s a y in g
c a l li n g M E C ’s t h a t w e r e t h e r e w o u l d a ls o c o n f ir m .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e , I t h i n k i n r e la t io n to

e i t h e r i t m i g h t n o t b e Vr e d e , I th in k i t m a y h a v e r e l a t e d to t h e Av i a t i o n
S e c t o r I h a v e h a d e v i d e n c e w h i c h is a l o n g t h o s e li n e s , th a t t h e r e w o u ld
20

s o m e t i m e s b e m e e t in g s o f t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il t h a t w o u l d s t a r t – o r
m a y b e I a m g e t t i n g c o n f u s e d , b u t I h e a r d e v i d e n c e a l o n g th e li n e s t h a t
a n E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il m e e ti n g w o u l d s t a r t a t n in e a m a n d w o u l d t a k e
t h e w h o l e d a y i f n o t m o r e a n d a t t h o s e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il m e e t in g s
p e o p l e o u t s i d e o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t w o u ld c o m e a n d w o u l d a t t e n d
s o m e t i m e s , s o I a m j u s t n o t s u r e w h e t h e r it m a y h a v e b e e n Fr e e S t a t e

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o r w h e th e r it w a s N o r t h - W e s t, b u t I s e e m t o t h in k i t w a s t h e Fr e e S t a t e .
Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

Ye s , th a t w a s o u r e x p e r ie n c e C h a ir p e r s o n

a n d t h e E x e c u t iv e w o u l d g o u p u n ti l v e r y l a te , d e a l in g w it h t h e m a t t e r s ,
b u t w h a t I w a n t e d t o a s a w a y o f a n e x a m p l e h o w c o m p r o m is e d th e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il w o u l d b e , i n o n e i n s t a n c e C h a ir p e r s o n a s a n
e x a m p l e w i t h o u t a ls o m e n ti o n i n g n a m e s , t h e r e w a s a p r o j e c t t h a t w a s
s u g g e s t e d , i t w a s d e a l in g w i t h s p e e d b o a ts , a n d y o u h a v e a n e n t it y
c a l l e d P a k is a M a j o r S p o r ts E v e n t s t h a t w o u l d d e a l w i th s u c h is s u e s b u t
10

t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s i n th e m a r k e t in g . .. ( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

I

am

lo o k

at

Mr

Mokoena

and

your

counsel

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

I w a s g e tt i n g w o r r ie d .
N o , n o I a m n o t, I a m j u s t m a k i n g a n

example.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( la u g h i n g ) m a y b e i t s h o u l d b e d e a l t w i t h l a t e r i f i t is
g o i n g t o m e n t io n e n t it i e s n a m e s . I th i n k .. . ( in t e r v e n ti o n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

N o , a ll I n e e d e d to s a y C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e

w a s a d e c is i o n t h a t w a s ta k e n o n t h e m a tt e r a n d w i t h o u t th e m a t t e r
20

b e i n g d i s c u s s e d i n th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l. It w a s s k i p p e d fo r w h a te v e r
r e a s o n a n d l a t e r w h e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s a b o u t t o c l o s e t h e M E C o f
Fi n a n c e i n d ic a te d th a t w e h a v e a n o u ts t a n d i n g m a tt e r t h a t w a s n o t
d e a lt w i t h a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t s a i d m a y b e y o u w e r e n o t l is t e n in g
o r y o u w e r e o u ts id e a n d w h e n h e s a i d it w a s n o t d is c u s s e d h e s a id
a c c o r d i n g to m e t h is m a t t e r w a s d i s c u s s e d , s o th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il ,

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t h e d e c is i o n t h e n s t o o d a s t h e E x e c u tiv e h a s d is c u s s e d t h e m a tt e r a n d
it h a d fi n a n c i a l i m p li c a t io n th a t m a tt e r, b u t l a te r o n d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g
of the Budget Committee the same matter that had served before the
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l, w i t h a r e q u e s t o f a p a r t ic u l a r a m o u n t , t w o d a y s l a t e r
t h e a m o u n t w a s – it w a s R 6 0 0 0 0 0 b u t t h e a m o u n t w h e n i t w e n t to th e
B u d g e t C o m m i t t e e w a s a m i ll i o n , s o I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h e s e a r e s o m e o f
t h e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON: The way of doing things.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

T h e w a y o f d o i n g th i n g s w i t h o u t f o l lo w i n g

p r o c e s s a n d u n d e r m i n i n g y o u r p r o c e s s e s a n d I t h in k t h e s e a r e th e
p r o b le m s t h a t w e a r e s i t t in g w i t h a n d th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l a n d h o w i t
operated.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Yo u a r e d e a li n g w i t h a n o th e r

t o p ic , o f t h e s a n i t is in g o f f o r e n s i c r e p o r ts .

Explain how this had

happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a r t is th a t ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O n p a g e 3 1 C h a ir, p a r a g r a p h J .

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph J.
20

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t e d t o . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, I j u s t w a n t to , p a g e 3 1 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Th a t i s a t p a r a g r a p h J , t h e t o p ic i s

s t a r ti n g t h e r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t o p ic t h e r e is Ex e c u t iv e C o u n c il m e e ti n g s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o J , p a g e 3 1 , t h r e e o n e C h a ir.

Page 254 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you see I don’t have page 31, I have got page 13
to 33.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I a m n o t s u r e h o w th a t h a p p e n e d C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e d e a l w i t h it w h il s t s o m e b o d y i s g e t ti n g m e
the page. Continue, yes.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a i r m a y b e i t ’s f o r a g o o d c a u s e t h a t y o u

d o n o t h a v e i t , i n f a c t t h r o u g h y o u I w a n t t o f i n d o u t ( i n d is ti n c t)
C H A I R P E R S O N : If w e c a n d e a l w i th it s o m e o th e r ti m e ?
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : Ye s , b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a d e ta il e d le t t e r fr o m
10

M r Fiv a z t h a t s e e m s t o s h e d li g h t a s to w h a t m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, s o I g u e s s t h e n le t ’s d e a l w i t h i t a n o t h e r
ti m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t i s fi n e C h a ir, t h a t is i n o r d e r, a s

lo n g a s t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e w i t n e s s h a s s e e n th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

N o t o n ly Mr F iv a z b u t I t h i n k M r

R a m a t h i h a s a l s o ( in d is ti n c t) t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

A n d th e n l e t ’s d e a l w i t h th e o n e o n p a g e

3 1 , in t e r n a t i o n a l s c h o l a r s h i p p r o g r a m , a n y th in g t h a t y o u w i s h t o
h i g h l ig h t t o t h e C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e a r e w e n o w, a r e w e n o w c o m in g t o t h e

conclusion?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O n p a g e 3 1 , n o C h a ir t h e r e is o n e t o p i c

b e f o r e th e c o n c l u s io n , p a g e 3 1 .

Page 255 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 3 1 o h t h a t is t h e o n e I d o n ’ t h a v e , g iv e i t to m e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Yo u w i ll s e e t h e r e is a to p ic

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON: I had seen such a page.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o t h is is p a g e 3 2 t h a t l o o k i n g a t , o h i t’s 3 1 b u t 3 1
h a s b e e n w r i t te n , o n e h a s b e e n w r i t te n i n a w a y t h a t – m a y b e I h a v e
g o t it , it ’s ju s t t h a t I a m m is r e a d i n g i t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I t is t h a t ti m e o f t h e d a y C h a ir.

N o I d o n ’ t h a v e i t , b u t I t h i n k I d i d s e e it .

O k a y,

a lr i g h t c o n t i n u e , l e t’s t r y a n d fi n i s h ,
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

C h a ir m a y I j u s t i n d ic a t e in t h e s a m e v e in

t h a t t h e p r e v io u s to p ic h a s b e e n d e c i d e d t o b e s h if t e d o r b e p u t in
a b e y a n c e p e n d i n g t h e l e t te r s th a t g iv e s a d i ff e r e n t v e r s i o n , i n t h e s a m e
b r e a t h t h e r e h a s b e e n a v e r s i o n , a d e t a i le d v e r s io n t h a t h a s b e e n
p r o c u r e d f o r t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s a n d o f c o u r s e M r D u k w a n a le g a l
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e , e x a c t ly d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s a s p e c t a s w e l l, w e d o n ’ t k n o w
w h e t h e r i n d e e d th e y h a v e h a d s ig h t o f i t o r t h e y a ls o w a n t t o y o u k n o w
le a v e i t fo r la t e r d e t e r m i n a t io n , I d o n ’ t k n o w, b u t th e r e h a s b e e n a
20

v e r s i o n t h a t h a s b e e n g i v e n d e t a i l e d w i t h a ll a n n e x u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k m a y b e l e t ’s d e a l w i t h i t s o m e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

Is it K M r C h a ir ?

In d e e d , b y t h e D G .

C H A I R P E R S O N : K , i n te r n a ti o n a l s c h o l a r s h i p .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Indeed so ja.

Page 256 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :

C h a ir p e r s o n c a n I a s k s o m e th in g ?

In

d e a li n g w i th t h a t in t h a t p a r ti c u l a r m a t te r in t h a t p a r tic u la r w a y c a n w e
a ls o a s k th a t t h e f o ll o w i n g t h in g s t h a t w o u l d i n s t e a d o f r e b u t t in g a n d
d o i n g a ll t h a t , th a t t h e fo ll o w i n g in f o r m a ti o n s h o u ld b e p r o v i d e d t o t h e
C o m m i s s i o n t h a t w o u l d h e l p i n f a c t f o r in s t a n c e t h e p o l ic y o u tli n in g t h is
s c h e m e , t h e B u r s a r y, a n d I th i n k i t w o u ld h e l p a l o t i f w e g e t t h a t
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , th a t ’s . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A :
10

W i th a ll th e i s s u e s t h a t w e a r e r a is i n g .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t’s f in e , I th in k w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n is m e n ti o n to
y o u r l e g a l t e a m t h e k i n d o f in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u b e li e v e w o u ld b e
n e c e s s a r y a n d t h e y w il l s h a r e t h a t w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s le g a l te a m
a n d t h e C o m m is s i o n w o u l d t r y a n d g e t i t fr o m t h e Fr e e S t a t e P r o v i n c ia l
G o v e r n m e n t s o t h a t th e n t h e C o m m is s i o n c o u l d h a v e a f u l l p i c tu r e b u t
le t ’s n o t b o t h e r to it e m is e w h a t i n fo r m a ti o n w o u l d b e r e q u i r e d n o w, i f
t h a t c a n b e d o n e . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
U N I D E N T I F I E D S P E A K E R : C h a ir i f I m a y a s s i s t t h e r e s p o n s e th a t h a s
b e e n p r o v i d e d i s d e t a il e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m i g h t h a v e s o m e o f . .. ( in t e r v e n t i o n )

20

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

I t h a s a l m o s t e v e r y t h i n g t h a t Mr D u k w a n a

w a n ts t o b e c a n v a s s e d i n t h a t r e p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h a t e v e r e ls e is r e q u i r e d y o u w o u l d

c o o p e r a t e t o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:

In d e e d s o .

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

Page 257 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I t m a k e s o u r d u t i e s s i m p l e C h a ir, t h e n

w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o d e a l w i t h t h e t o p ic o n t h e l e t t e r K , a n d t h a t c o n c l u d e s
M r D u k w a n a ’s e v i d e n c e b u t I w o u l d l ik e fo r h i m t o d e a l w i th t h i s
c o n c l u s i o n fr o m p a g e 3 3 , p a r a g r a p h 11 7 M r D u k w a n a .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P a g e 3 3 C h a ir, I h o p e y o u a r e h a v i n g i t ,

page 33.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e c o n c l u s io n ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, l e t h i m d e a l w it h th e c o n c l u s i o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr Dukwana.

M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : C h a ir p e r s o n th a n k y o u f o r t h is o p p o r t u n i ty, I
b e li e v e t h a t a s o n e p e r s o n w h o h a d w o r k e d in t h e Pr o v i n c e , s t a y e d
there,

and

also

in

th e

le a d e r s h i p , b o th

of

the

Party

and

the

G o v e r n m e n t , I a m w e l l v e r s e d w it h t h e a ff a ir s o f th e P r o v in c e a n d h o w
t h e s y s te m h a s c o n c e a l e d c o r r u p ti o n a n d a ls o e n c o u r a g e d i t to h a p p e n
a n d I w o u l d a n t ic i p a te t h a t it w o u l d b e d i ffi c u l t f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n t o
g e t a n y c o o p e r a ti o n fr o m t h e F r e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t a n d a s w e ll a s
fr o m t h e o ffic i a ls w h o w o u ld w a n t t o – I a m r a is i n g t h is m a t t e r t h a t e v e n
20

a s l a t e a s y e s t e r d a y s o m e o f t h e p e o p le w e r e c a l li n g m e t o s a y w e
w o u ld l ik e i f t h e r e w a s a n o p p o r tu n i t y f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n to h e a r s o m e
o f th e i n fo r m a t i o n th a t w e h a v e i n c a m e r a , w e c a n p r o v id e s u c h
in f o r m a ti o n , b u t p e o p l e w o u l d l ik e to g i v e s o m e in f o r m a ti o n to u s a n d
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e a fr a i d o f th e c o n s e q u e n c e s t h a t m i g h t f o ll o w,
e s p e c i a l ly w i t h r e g a r d t o o ffic i a ls .

Page 258 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
A s I e x p l a i n e d t h e o th e r d a y t h a t i f y o u – i f a p e r s o n w e r e t o
c o m e h e r e a s a n o ffic i a l a n d s a y t h i n g s t h a t a r e n o t a c c e p te d t h e y
w o u ld f i n d a w a y o f s u s p e n d in g t h e p e r s o n a n d t h e y w o u l d m a k e it v e r y
d i ff ic u l t f o r th e p e r s o n a s I s a y, p e o p l e b e li e v e th a t b e c a u s e I a m i n
g o v e r n m e n t I h a v e y o u k n o w a n a c c e s s to r e s o u r c e s t h a t is u n p a r a ll e l
a n d y o u a s a n o r d i n a r y m e m b e r y o u w o u ld s u ff e r b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d b e
u s i n g y o u r o w n r e s o u r c e s , s o I a m j u s t a s k in g t h a t i t c o u ld a ls o b e
h e l p f u l a n d – b u t a ls o I t h i n k t h e F r e e S t a t e s it u a ti o n t h a t i n v o l v e s a ls o
t h e a d m i n is t r a t io n a t t h e L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t l e v e l y o u w o u ld k n o w th a t
10

w i t h t h e r e p o r ts th a t h a v e b e e n r e l e a s e d w e a r e p e r f o r m i n g v e r y b a d ,
a n d i n fa c t te c h n ic a l ly I m u s t s a y C h a ir p e r s o n w e – y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a
g o v e r n m e n t in t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d I w o u l d s u g g e s t y o u k n o w ju s t p u t ti n g
t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n to r a i s e th e is s u e t h a t if t h is m a t te r, i f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n h a s t o d o s o m e t h o r o u g h w o r k i n te r ms o f h e l p in g th e
p r o c e s s a n d r e b u il d in g t h a t tr u s t in te r ms o f g o v e r n m e n t y o u n e e d t h e
P r e s i d e n t o f t h e R e p u b li c n e e d s t o a c t in te r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 0 0 o f t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a n d p u t th e e n t ir e p r o v in c e u n d e r a d m in is tr a ti o n .
I t h a s h a p p e n e d in L i m p o p o a n d I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h e
Fr e e S t a te a s w e s e e , o n l y th e D e p a r t m e n t o f F i n a n c e i t w a s H e a l t h

20

a n d a s w e ll a s E d u c a t i o n a t s o m e s ta g e w e r e p u t u n d e r a d m i n is tr a t i o n
b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g i f w e a r e r e a l ly s e r i o u s a b o u t d e a li n g w i t h t h i s a n d
u p r o o ti n g t h e m t h e r e is a n e e d f o r th e P r e s id e n t t o t h i n k o f a p p ly i n g
S e c t io n 1 0 0 o f th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d p u t t h e e n t ir e p r o v i n c e u n d e r
a d m i n is tr a t i o n .

I n t h i s w a y a m u l ti- d i s c i p li n a r y t e a m o f u n t a i n t e d a n d

in d e p e n d e n t p r o f e s s i o n a l s w i t h n o li n k s t o Mr M a g a s h u l e a n d h i s

Page 259 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
n e t w o r k b e p u t in c h a r g e o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t a ff a ir s a n d r e n d e r
a s s is t a n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s io n .
I c a n te ll y o u t h a t y o u w i ll u n e a r th m a n y t h i n g s t h a t y o u k n o w
m a n y p e o p l e w i ll b e s u r p r is e d t h a t t h e s e th i n g s d o h a p p e n . A n d t h e
p r i n c i p a l a i m o f th e t e a m w o u l d b e to a u d it e v e r y c o n t r a c t i n th e
g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts , S t a t e e n ti t ie s a n d m u n i c i p a li t ie s in th e F r e e
S t a te . W i t h o u t s u c h a s s is t a n c e o r in t e r v e n ti o n , I’ m a f r a i d to s a y th a t
the

Commission

w i ll

be

c o n s tr a in e d

in

its

performance

of

i ts

C o n s t i tu t io n a l o b l i g a t io n . I h a v e s p o k e n t o a n u m b e r o f g o v e r n m e n t
10

o ffic i a ls i n th e Fr e e S t a te p r o v i n c e a n d t h e y a r e e a g e r t o p r o v id e
in f o r m a ti o n o r r e n d e r a s s is t a n c e t o t h e C o m m is s i o n . T h e ir o n ly f e a r is
t h a t th e r e i s n o i n d e p e n d e n t v e h i c l e th r o u g h w h ic h th e y c o u l d b e o f
a s s is t a n c e t o t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d t h i s i s m y h u m b l e p l e a in c o n c l u s io n ,
C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, you very much Mr Dukwana. I have, I have

id e n t i fi e d a s p e c i a l t a s k t e a m th a t is d e a li n g w i t h th e Fr e e S t a t e a n d
r e p o r t in g d ir e c tly t o m e . A n d i n r e g a r d t o t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d b o t h M r
M o k o e n a a n d Ms R a n g a t a a r e p a r t o f t h e t e s t t e a m . T h e y a r e a ls o
in v e s t i g a t o r s . W e m ig h t h a v e to a d d m o r e ; t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s a r e n o t
20

m a n y t h a t h a v e to r e p o r t d ir e c tl y to m e a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e , h o w
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a r e g o i n g a n d if t h e r e a r e c h a l le n g e s r e p o r t d ir e c tl y
t o m e . S o , I k n o w t h a t f o r a n u m b e r o f m o n th s y o u a n d y o u r le g a l t e a m
h a v e b e e n v e r y h e l p f u l to th e C o m m i s s i o n . P le a s e s h a r e w i t h t h e m
w h a t e v e r it is t h a t y o u h a v e in m i n d c o u l d b e d o n e t o g e t m o r e
in f o r m a ti o n i n c lu d in g t h e is s u e o f o ffi c i a ls w h o w a n ts to a s s i s t t h e

Page 260 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C o m m i s s i o n b u t w h o m a y b e s c a r e d o f c e r t a i n t h i n g s . A n d t h e y ’ ll r e p o r t
b a c k t o m e a n d s o t h a t w e f in d a w a y o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e c a n g e t a s
m u c h in f o r m a ti o n a s p o s s i b l e . J a , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : I w i ll d o t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

That concludes the evidence of Mr

Dukwana.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: We have one short witness.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M s M o k a l o b e w h o w i ll b e d e a l t w i th b y

m y l e a r n e d c o l le a g u e , M s R a n g a t a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I k n o w t h a t w e a l w a y s h a d i n m in d t h a t t h e r e

w o u ld b e t h a t w it n e s s b u t I w o n d e r w h e t h e r. I k n o w i t ’s a v e r y s h o r t
w i t n e s s . M a y b e h e o r s h e w i ll b e f iv e m i n u t e s a n d m a y b e j a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S h e is s h o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k w e w il l e x c u s e M r D u k w a n a . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d
Mr Dukwana.
M R M X O L I S I D U K WA N A : T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w e ’l l ta k e t h a t w it n e s s a n d f r o m w h a t I k n o w

t h e w i tn e s s w i ll t a lk a b o u t , it s h o u ld n ’ t r e a l ly b e m o r e t h a n fi v e
m i n u t e s . O k a y, M s R a n g a t a ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : G o o d a f te r n o o n , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f te r n o o n .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

Page 261 of 278

28 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 151
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a l l t h e w i tn e s s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS

BAITSENG

R A N G ATA :

Our

n e x t w i tn e s s

is

Ms

Mokalobe,

Mpolokeng Mokalobe.
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:
surname.

We

haven’t

been

Yo u w i ll h a v e t o s p e l l t h e n a m e a n d
doing

that

with

Mr

Dukwana.

The

tr a n s c r ib e r s w il l h a v e to t a lk t o .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To y o u p e o p le to m a k e s u r e t h a t w h a t t h e y w i ll w r i t e
t h e r e i s s o m e th in g w e c a n r e c o g n iz e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : H e r n a m e i s M p o l o k e n g M P O L O K E N G .
h e r s u r n a m e is M o k a l o b e M O K A L O B E .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t ’s fi n e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : M p o lo k e n g M o k a l o b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . A d m i n i s t e r t h e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.

20

R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e , p le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e f o r th e r e c o r d .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : M y n a m e i s M p o lo k e n g M o k a l o b e .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MS M POLOKENG MOKALOBE: No, I do not have any problem.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r th e o a th t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r

conscious?

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M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r th a t th e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w il l b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o , p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o , h e l p m e G o d .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : S o , h e lp m e G o d .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , C h a ir. I k n o w t h a t

w e ’v e g o t c h a ll e n g e s ; i t ’s b e e n a l o n g d a y. I’ m g o i n g t o t r y a n d b e t o
t h e p o i n t . Ms M o k a l o b e , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g . I k n o w th a t
10

y o u r e v id e n c e is q u i t e li m i t e d . I’ m g o in g t o t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t h e , C h a ir
w e a r e g o i n g t o b e t a k i n g t h i s w i t n e s s t h r o u g h a d o c u m e n t c a ll e d w i t h
y o u r l e a v e i f w e c a n l a b e l i t. I t ’s m a r k e d E x h i b it 6 , X 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fi le c o n ta i n i n g t h e a ffi d a v i t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , th e a ffi d a v i t o f M s M o k a l o b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f M s M p o l o k e n g M o k a lo b e w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t X 6 .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M s M o k a l o b e , y o u ’v e
g o t t h e A n n e x u r e X 6 i n fr o n t o f y o u . C a n w e p l e a s e g o t o p a g e 1 ? I f y o u

20

lo o k a t th e d o c u m e n t o n y o u r e x tr e m e u p p e r r ig h t s i d e t h e r e a r e
n u m b e r s t h e r e . It ’s M M 0 1 . I ’l l j u s t s a y o n e w h e n I c a l le d th e n u m b e r.
S o , th a t ’s p a g e 1 .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : O k a y.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C a n y o u i d e n t i f y t h a t d o c u m e n t f o r u s ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

I t ’s a n a ffi d a v i t th a t w a s u n d e r s i g n e d

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b y M p o l o k e n g M o k a l o b e u n d e r w i th t h e I D 7 6 0 9 1 3 0 6 … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Is t h a t y o u r d e t a i ls ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : J a , th o s e a r e m y I D n u m b e r s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Thank you. If you turn to page 8, are you

there?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , I a m t h e r e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , t h e r e is a s i g n a t u r e th e r e is ju s t u n d e r
t h a t i s a ll I w is h . I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n p a g e 8 ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , th a t ’s m y s i g n a t u r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , t h e r e a r e t h r e e s i g n a t u r e s t h e r e o n t h a t p a g e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON: There are three signatures on that page.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e a r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Th e r e ’s o n e j u s t a f t e r t h e s e n te n c e th a t is
a l l. T h a t is t h e f ir s t s ig n a tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fir s t s i g n a t u r e o n th e p a g e ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O n t h e p a g e y e s , C h a ir. O n p a g e 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s e s ig n a t u r e i s t h a t?

20

M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : T h a t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h e s e c o n d s ig n a tu r e ju s t a l m o s t in t h e

m i d d l e o f th e p a g e . Is t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I t ’s my s i g n a t u r e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Thank you. I would want to believe that

y o u ’v e r e a d t h e d o c u m e n t . D o y o u a g r e e to th e c o n t e n t s a n d t h e

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c o r r e c t n e s s a n d tr u th f u l n e s s o f t h e d o c u m e n t ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I a g r e e t o t h e c o n te n ts .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u . C h a ir, I ’ m g o i n g t o ta k e t h i s

w i t n e s s th r o u g h t h i s … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u , I ’ m s o r r y. Yo u d e p o s e d t o t h is a ff i d a v i t o n t h e

1 2 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : T h a t is r ig h t, C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , M s R a n g a t a ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u . I ’ m o n p a g e 1 o f t h e a ff i d a v i t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : U n d e r p a r a g r a p h t w o , c a n y o u ju s t r e a d i t
in t o t h e r e c o r d ? I d e p o s e …
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I d e p o s e t o t h i s a ff id a v i t w i th t h e a i m
to

provide

th e

C o m m is s i o n

of

I n q u ir y

in t o

State

Capture

w i th

in f o r m a ti o n a t m y d i s p o s a l i n r e l a ti o n to m y k n o w l e d g e a b o u t th e C i ty o f
tomorrow project.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u . S o , y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y w i ll b e
r e s tr ic t e d a n d l i m i te d o n ly t o t h a t a s p e c t r e l a ti n g t o th e C it y o f
t o m o r r o w.
20

M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , C h a ir.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . W h a t a r e y o u d o i n g
c u r r e n tly ? W h a t is y o u r p o s i ti o n c u r r e n tl y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, M s R a n g a t a .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is n ’ t h e r e v id e n c e s i m p l y a b o u t i d e n ti fy i n g w h e t h e r a

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c e r t a i n s ig n a t u r e i s Mr D u k w a n a ’s s i g n a t u r e s ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you must just go there.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m u s t i n d ic a te i f s h e k n o w s M r D u k w a n a ’s

s ig n a tu r e , h o w s h e k n e w i t a n d .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n d ic a te w h i c h o n e w h e t h e r a p a r ti c u la r o n e i s Mr
D u k w a n a ’s s i g n a t u r e . S o , t h a t ’s a l l w e n e e d .
10

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. Fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e th a t

y o u , s o r r y f r o m y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u ’ v e i n d ic a te d t h a t y o u c o n s u l t e d w i t h
in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n .
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE: Oh, maybe I’m sorry may be confusing
y o u . I t h i n k y o u m a y h a v e t o le t h e r s a y w h a t h e r p o s i ti o n i s , w h ic h
d e p a r t m e n t s h e is n o w, i n w h i c h d e p a r t m e n t s h e w a s a t a p a r t ic u l a r
ti m e a n d w h a t h e r p o s i ti o n w a s th a t ; h o w s h e k n o w s M r D u k w a n a a n d
t h e n g o s tr a ig h t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

O k a y. M s M o k a l o b e , w h a t i s y o u r c u r r e n t

p o s i ti o n ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:
development

in

the

I’ m c u r r e n t ly t h e d ir e c to r fo r s e c t o r

department

of

e c o n o m ic s

s m a ll

business

d e v e l o p m e n t to w a r d s h i m a n d e n v ir o n m e n t a l a ffa ir s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : A n d w h e n d id y o u jo i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t ?

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MS M POLOKENG MOKALOBE: I joined the department in 2008, August
2008.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. I s e e o n p a r a g r a p h , I ’ m o n p a g e 2 o f
y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e u n d e r p a r a g r a p h f o u r y o u ’ v e m e n t io n e d t h a t y o u
h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e t a s k te a m f o r t h e C i t y o f t o m o r r o w. Is th a t
correct?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

O k a y. I n y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h a t p r o j e c t ,

w h a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o r w h a t w a s y o u r r o l e ?
10

M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : M a y b e C h a ir w h a t I c a n e x p l a i n is t h e
t a s k t e a m w a s m e a n t f o r th e C i ty o f to m o r r o w. I t w a s a t a s k t e a m t h a t
w a s m e a n t t o b e m o r e li k e a n e n g in e f o r a ll h i g h - i m p a c t p r o je c ts in t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f E c o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t a t t h e t i m e . I t ju s t h a p p e n e d th a t
t h e C i ty o f to m o r r o w b e c a m e o n e o f th e p r o j e c ts t h a t w e r e d e a l t w i th .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , y o u ’r e d e a l in g w i th th e p r o je c t a t s o m e
s t a g e y o u w e r e p r o v i d e d w i th d o c u m e n ts . I ’ m g o i n g t o t a k e y o u t h r o u g h
b e f o r e I d e a l w i t h h o w y o u k n o w M r D u k w a n a . I’ m g o in g t o t a k e y o u
t h r o u g h t o p a g e 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Ar e y o u th e r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , I a m t h e r e .

20

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. O n p a g e 1 6 y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h y o u r
c o n s u l t a ti o n w it h i n v e s t ig a t o r s o f t h e C o m m is s i o n .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : P a r d o n ? Ye s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: On paragraph 16?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O n p a r a g r a p h 1 6 , t h a n k y o u . O n p a r a g r a p h
1 6 y o u ’r e d e a l i n g w i t h y o u r c o n s u l t a ti o n a n d y o u ’v e m e n t i o n e d t h e r e

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u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 1 7 t h a t y o u w e r e s h o w n s o m e d o c u m e n t a t i o n . I f I g o to
1 7 . 1 y o u ’v e i n d ic a te d a d o c u m e n t m a s te r p l a n a g r e e m e n t a s A n n e x u r e
M M 2 . C a n w e g o t o p a g e 11 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t o r o f A n n e x u r e X 6 ? C a n
y o u s e e t h e d o c u m e n t t h e r e ? Is t h is w h a t t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s h a v e s h o w n
to you?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

Ye s , t h is i s o n e o f t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t

was shown to me.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. A n d h a v e y o u r e a d t h e d o c u m e n t ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I d i d n ’ t g e t th e , I d i d n ’ t g o in t o d e t a i ls .
10

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I’ v e ju s t r e a d p a r t s o f th e a g r e e m e n t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : S o r r y, y o u ju s t d i d w h a t?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

I just read part of the agreement. I

d i d n ’ t g o t h r o u g h in d e ta il s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. I’ m j u s t q u ic k ly g o i n g to t a k e y o u t o
p a g e 1 7 p a r a g r a p h fi v e , a p p o i n t m e n t a n d w o r k s c h e d u le . C a n y o u r e a d
5 .1 f o r t h e C h a i r ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : 5 .1 r e a d s ,
Fr e e S t a t e h e r e b y a p p o i n ts a C o n s o r t iu m t o u n d e r t a k e
20

t h e p r o j e c t i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s o f t h is
a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e C o n s o r ti u m a c c e p ts s u c h a p p o i n t m e n t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h a n k y o u . I t h i n k th a t is s u ffic i e n t . I ’ m

g o i n g to ta k e y o u to , c a n y o u p l e a s e t u r n t o p a g e 2 6 o f X 6 ? Ex c u s e m e
2 7 , p a g e 2 7 . J u s t t h e r e to w a r d s t h e b o tt o m t h e r e i s a s i g n a t u r e t h e r e
u n d e r th e , o n to p o f t h a t s i g n a t u r e t h e r e is a w r i ti n g t h e r e . T h e

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p r o v i n c i a l g o v e r n m e n t o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e a c t in g th r o u g h i ts D e p a r t m e n t
o f e c o n o m ic d e v e lo p m e n t t o u r is m a n d e n v ir o n m e n t a l a ff a ir s . C a n y o u
s e e j u s t u n d e r n e a t h t h e r e , t h e r e i s a s i g n a tu r e th e r e ? C a n y o u s e e th e
s ig n a tu r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , C h a i r I c a n .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. C a n y o u o b s e r v e ju s t b e l o w t h e r e a s
t o w h a t is th e n a m e o f th e p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d t h e r e ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

T h e p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d h e r e is M A

Dukwana.
10

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s . C a n y o u id e n ti fy w i th t h e s i g n a t u r e ?

D o y o u k n o w t h a t s i g n a tu r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y. U n l e s s y o u w e r e t h e r e a n d u n le s s y o u a r e
a lr e a d y s a y in g y o u k n o w th a t t h is is M r D u k w a n a ’s s i g n a t u r e . Th e r e is
ju s t a n a m e M A D u k w a n a w r i t te n b e lo w t h e s i g n a t u r e a n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a
s ig n a tu r e a b o v e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r

y o u ’r e g o in g t o s a y t h is is M r D u k w a n a ’s s i g n a t u r e .
20

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O r y o u ’r e g o in g t o s a y i t is n o t b u t i f y o u s a y t h e

n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n w h o s i g n e d i s Mr D u k w a n a y o u a r e a lr e a d y s a y i n g
t h e s i g n a t u r e is Mr D u k w a n a ’s s ig n a tu r e b u t y o u m i g h t n o t b e i n t e n d i n g
t o s a y t h a t.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I t h i n k I m i g h t h a v e m is le d h e r. J u s t u n d e r
t h e s i g n a t u r e t h e r e ’s a n a m e t h a t ’s w r i t t e n th e r e . S o , a f t e r y o u h a v e
r e a d t h e n a m e , I w a n t to t a k e y o u b a c k to t h e s i g n a t u r e . I f y o u l o o k a t
t h e s i g n a t u r e a g a in .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l, s h e d o e s n ’ t e v e n h a v e to l o o k a t t h e n a m e . If

she knows the signature whose signature it is, she might be able to
s a y, I k n o w w h o s e s ig n a tu r e t h is is .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : C a n y o u i d e n ti fy th is s ig n a t u r e th a t a p p e a r s
10

on the page?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that signature?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I c o u ld n ’t r e c o g n iz e th e s ig n a tu r e fr o m
the… (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u ld n o t r e c o g n iz e i t ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

F r o m t h e t i m e w h e n t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s

g a v e m e t h i s d o c u m e n t.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:
20

A n d e v e n n o w, C h a ir I s t il l t h in k i t

d o e s n ’t lo o k li k e I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e s i g n a t u r e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w th e s ig n a tu r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Th a n k y o u . A n d if y o u tu r n t o p a g e 2 8 ,

t h e r e ’s a s i g n a t u r e o n to p t h e r e . D o y o u k n o w t h a t s i g n a t u r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : N o , I d o n o t k n o w th e s ig n a t u r e , C h a ir.

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M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s th e fir s t s i g n a t u r e o n p a g e 2 8 .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e , u n d e r th e w o r d s t h e p r o v i n c i a l g o v e r n m e n t o f
t h e Fr e e S ta t e . Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t s i g n a t u r e ?
MS M POLOKENG MOKALOBE: No, I don’t know the signature.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

A lr i g h t. T h a n k y o u , m a ’ a m . W e k n o w t h a t

y o u a r e n o t a n e x p e r t w h e n i t c o m e s t o s i g n a tu r e s . I ’v e s h o w n y o u
10

t h o s e t w o s ig n a tu r e s i n p a r tic u l a r a n d y o u ’v e s a i d t h a t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w
them. Can I understand, have you been, have you worked with Mr
D u k w a n a b e fo r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , C h a i r. I w o r k e d w i t h Mr D u k w a n a
in t h e t a s k t e a m t h a t w e a ll u d e d t o , t h e h ig h - i m p a c t p r o j e c t t a s k t e a m
b u t I w a s a ls o a t th e ti m e w h e n t h e t a s k t e a m w a s o p e r a ti o n a l . I w a s
a ls o h e a d o f p l a n n i n g , s t r a t e g ic p l a n n i n g a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d in t h e
d e p a r t m e n t I u s u a ll y d ir e c t ly w i t h d i ff e r e n t m a n a g e r s . E s p e c i a lly t h e
head of the department and the MEC in the department.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

S o , t h a t ’s h o w I g o t t o w o r k w i th M r

Dukwana.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , le t m e a s k t h e q u e s ti o n . I s th is s i g n a t u r e o n

p a g e 2 7 n o t M r D u k w a n a ’s s ig n a tu r e ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

To m y e y e s i t d o e s n ’ t l o o k l ik e Mr

D u k w a n a ’s s i g n a t u r e a n d I’ m s a y in g th a t h a v i n g b e e n r e s p o n s i b le f o r

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p l a n n in g . H e w o u l d s i g n a n u m b e r o f m y d o c u m e n ts ; t h e d e p a r t m e n ta l
d o c u m e n ts . T h a t w o u l d b e t h e a n n u a l r e p o r ts a n d I w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r
t h a t . A n d a s p a r t o f th a t in te r ms o f p r i n t in g a n d m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e
h a v e t h o s e d o c u m e n ts i n th e d e p a r t m e n t I w o u ld b e t h e o n e r e s p o n s ib l e
t o s o u r c e h is s ig n a tu r e a n d h e w o u l d n o r m a lly s i g n o n a p a p e r a b o u t
t h r e e s i g n a t u r e s a n d I w o u l d ta k e t h e m t o t h e p r i n te r s . S o , I g o t
a c c u s t o m e d t o , to th e s i g n a t u r e . B u t w h e n I l o o k a t i t f o r b o t h
s ig n a tu r e s th a t I l o o k e d a t t h e y l o o k d i ff e r e n t f r o m w h a t I w a s u s e d t o
seeing.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e th e r e a n y p a r ti c u l a r f e a t u r e s o f t h i s s i g n a t u r e th a t
y o u r e c o g n iz e th a t m a k e y o u t h i n k it ’s n o t M r D u k w a n a ’s s i g n a t u r e o r
a r e t h e r e n o n e ? Yo u j u s t d o n ’t r e c o g n iz e i t a s h is s ig n a tu r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. I t h i n k , I m u s t r e p e a t
s h e s a i d t h a t I ’ m n o t a h a n d w r i t in g e x p e r t b u t M r D u k w a n a ’s s ig n a tu r e
w a s a b i t b r o a d e r ; w a s a b i t b r o a d e r a n d I t h i n k i t h a d t w o , t w o l e v e ls if
I r e c a ll w e l l. T h e r e w o u l d b e a li t tl e s ig n a t u r e o n to p a n d a s li g h tly
a n o t h e r o n e a t t h e b o tt o m a b o u t a s a l a m e p e r s o n I w o u l d n o t e x a c tly
s a y w h a t i t is th a t is b u t i t l o o k s d i ff e r e n t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a n o t h e r s i g n a t u r e ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , y e s , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I f y o u g o b a c k t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t o n p a g e 5 ,
y o u a r e m a k in g f o r t h e r e fe r e n c e t o a n a p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r w h i c h w e f in d
o n p a g e 1 0 . Ar e y o u o n p a g e 1 0 ? C a n y o u id e n t i fy th a t l e t te r ?

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MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

T h e l e t t e r h a s t h e l e t te r h e a d o f a

m e m b e r o f th e e x e c u tiv e C o u n c il . I t is d ir e c t e d t o M r … ( i n d is ti n c t )
B a ls h a m a a n d M r J o h n T h o m a s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , a n d th e d a te b e l o w t h e r e ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

The date that has of the signature

s e e m t o b e t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Th a n k y o u . J u s t a b o v e t h e d a t e t h e r e ,

t h e r e ’s a s i g n a t u r e . D o y o u k n o w th e s ig n a t u r e ?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : I d o n o t k n o w t h e s i g n a tu r e .
10

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

S o , fr o m w h a t y o u ’ v e s e e n fr o m t h e t w o

p r e v i o u s s i g n a t u r e s th a t w e ’v e ju s t b e e n t h r o u g h fr o m p a g e 2 7 a n d
p a g e 2 0 s o r r y, 2 7 a n d 2 8 . W o u l d y o u s a y t h a t t h e s a m e a n s w e r a p p li e s
to this one?
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : Ye s , I w o u ld s a y t h a t it a p p li e s .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. I j u s t w a n t y o u t o r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d
o n y o u r a ffi d a v i t o n p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t . M a y b e w e s h o u l d s t a r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n w h a t is , w h a t d o y o u w a n t h e r to r e a d ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

I w a n t h e r to r e a d , C h a ir o n h e r, t h e

r e s p o n s e th a t s h e p r o v i d e d o n A n n e x u r e M M 2 w h ic h a p p e a r s o n
20

paragraph 18.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but why must she read?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

I t j u s t c o n fir m s w h a t s h e h a s j u s t …

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y d o n ’ t y o u a s k h e r t h e q u e s ti o n a n d l e t h e r

answer?

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M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : S o r r y, C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d o n ’ t y o u h e r a s k t h e q u e s t io n ? L e t h e r a n s w e r.
What you want her to read?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : S h e a lr e a d y a n s w e r e d , C h a ir. I j u s t w a n te d
t o p u t i t f o r m a ll y i n to t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

W h a t s h e s a y s i n t e r m s o f th e s ig n a tu r e ;

w h a t s h e h a s a c tu a lly c a p t u r e d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 1 8 . 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

She

has

a lr e a d y

said

she

doesn’t

know

th e

s ig n a tu r e s . W h a t m o r e d o y o u w a n t h e r t o s a y ?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : N o , i t ’s o k a y, C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : N o , s h e ’s n o t g o i n g t o g iv e m e a d i ff e r e n t
a n s w e r. I w a n te d h e r t o r e a d i t in t o t h e r e c o r d . S o , I t h in k y o u ’v e
a n s w e r e d t h e q u e s ti o n s u ffi c i e n t ly. I f I c a n j u s t m o v e t o th e l a s t p o i n t
o n p a r a g r a p h , p a r a g r a p h 2 2 o n p a g e 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Yo u m e n t io n e d
d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n m is s in g fr o m y o u r o ffi c e .
MS M POLOKENG MOKALOBE: Paragraph 22?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : P a g e 7 , p a g e 7 p a r a g r a p h 2 2 .

20

MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE: I got it.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

Ye s , y o u ’v e m a d e r e fe r e n c e t o d o c u m e n t s

t h a t h a v e g o n e m is s i n g , r i g h t o n t h a t p a r a g r a p h ? D o y o u w a n t to
q u ic k ly j u s t e x p l a i n t o u s h o w t h e d o c u m e n ts , h o w y o u m i s s e d t h e
d o c u m e n ts o r h o w t h e y w e n t m i s s i n g ?
MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

C h a ir, I w o u l d n ’ t w a n t . O k a y, t h e

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d o c u m e n ts a r e m is s i n g a n d I ’ m n o t v e r y c e r ta i n h o w th e y, th e y g o t l o s t
o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : A n d t h e r e a s o n i s , i t ’s d o c u m e n ts t h a t I
d e a lt w i t h i n 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 t h a t w e r e n o w f il e d , k e p t in a c a b i n e t
s o m e w h e r e a n d t h e o n ly t i m e I w e n t b a c k t o l o o k fo r t h e m w a s w h e n t h e
Commission came to the department and some

in f o r m a ti o n w a s

r e q u e s t e d fr o m m e . W h e n I w e n t t o t h e c a b i n e t t h e r e w a s n o fi le . It w a s
m o s t ly p r o j e c t s i n t h e r e ; p r e s e n ta t io n s f r o m , f r o m t h e d i ffe r e n t p r o j e c ts
10

t h a t w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i th . S o , I w o u ld n ’t b e a b l e t o te ll i f t h e y w e r e
s t o l e n , s o m e b o d y t o o k t h e m a n d it w a s a t t h e ti m e ; i t’s a f t e r a ti m e
w h e n w e m o v e d o ff ic e s . W e m o v e d f r o m t h e o ff ic e s th a t w e a r e . S o , I’ m
n o t s o c e r t a i n w h a t h a p p e n e d to t h e d o c u m e n t s b u t j a , I c o u l d n ’ t fi n d
t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e n e e d e d f o r u s to s u p p ly t h e C o m m is s i o n w it h .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u . E x c e p t fo r t h e d o c u m e n t s , w h a t
e ls e w e n t m is s i n g ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e a r e w e g o in g w i t h a ll o f t h a t ? I th o u g h t t h i s

w i t n e s s w a s a b o u t a s ig n a tu r e o n ly a n d w h e n I a s k e d y o u a g r e e d . Yo u
s a i d t h a t ’s w h a t s h e ’s c o m i n g to t e s ti fy a b o u t .
20

M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir. W e d o n e n e h ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , m a y b e y o u k n o w. If y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e i s

something then you can tell me.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

C h a ir, i t w ill j u s t c o n c l u d e w h a t I’ v e ju s t

asked.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t is t h a t? R e p e a t t h e q u e s t io n s o I u n d e r s ta n d

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b e c a u s e I m u s t fo ll o w w h a t t h e q u e s ti o n .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I a s k e d a b o u t t h e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h s h e h a s
ju s t e x p la in e d th a t th e d o c u m e n t s w e n t m is s in g b u t s h e c a n ’ t s a y t h e y
w e r e s t o l e n . S o , I ’ m a s k in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but what are the documents about?
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : O k a y. C h a ir, l e t m e l e a v e t h a t q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : M a ’a m , l a s t q u e s ti o n fr o m m e . I ’ m g o i n g to
t a k e y o u t o p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h 1 8 . 3 . Yo u ’v e i n d ic a te d t h e , th a t t h e n a m e
10

t h a t h a s b e e n s p e l t f o r Mr D u k w a n a is in c o r r e c t . C a n y o u e x p l a i n w h y ?
Why do you say so?
MS MPOLOK ENG MOKALOBE:

C h a ir, w h a t I i n d ic a te d w a s t h a t I ’v e

n e v e r c o m e a c r o s s a ti m e w h e n M r D u k w a n a s i g n e d a n d h e w r o t e h i s
n a m e w i t h D U K O A . A ll t h e s ig n a tu r e s t h a t I h a v e s e e n w a s w i th K W
A i n t h e m i d d l e . S o , I d i d n ’ t k n o w th is n a m e a s i t is w r it t e n h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , t h a t c a n ’ t b e s i g n a t u r e s b e c a u s e t h e s i g n a tu r e s ,
h is s i g n a t u r e s a r e s u c h th a t y o u c a n r e a d a n y le t t e r s a r e th e r e y o u
k n o w. Yo u s a y in t h e n a m e s b e c a u s e a s I s e e t h e s e s i g n a t u r e s , I d o n ’ t
t h i n k y o u c a n r e a d t h e le t t e r s fr o m t h e s i g n a t u r e .
20

MS MPOLOKENG MOKALOBE:

C h a ir, p e r h a p s w h a t I w a n t t o s a y i s

m o r e o f t e n t h a n n o t b e fo r e y o u s i g n o r a f te r y o u s i g n y o u w r i te y o u r
name.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t ’s w h a t I m e a n .
M S M P O L O K E N G M O K A L O B E : A n d I h a v e n e v e r s e e n h is n a m e w r i t te n
w i t h a D O A . I t ’s a l w a y s , w h a t I’ v e s e e n w a s a l w a y s w i t h a K W A .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir, th a t ’s a ll f o r th is w i t n e s s .
Thank you, ma’am.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . I th i n k i n

r e g a r d t o t h e s i g n a t u r e s y o u m a y h a v e t o l o o k f o r a h a n d w r i ti n g e x p e r t .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a s s i s t u s o n .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA :

T h e d i ffic u lt y w a s w e c o u l d n ’ t o b t a i n t h e

o r i g in a l d o c u m e n t s b u t t h a t w a s , th e r e w e r e a t te m p t s t h a t h a v e b e e n
10

m a d e t o g e t th e o r i g i n a l d o c u m e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t e v e n i f y o u h a v e a c o p y i t s h o u l d b e p o s s ib l e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s , y e s , i t ’s b e i n g a t te n d e d t o , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e th e h a n d w r i ti n g e x p e r t w o u l d ju s t n e e d t o b e
shown to signatures.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e b e in g Mr D u k w a n a ’s o n e .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n a n o th e r o n e o b v i o u s ly h e n e e d n o t b e to l d
m u c h o r s h e n e e d n o t b e t o l d m u c h a n d m u s t c o m p a r e th e t w o

20

s ig n a tu r e s a n d i n d ic a te if i t’s t h e s a m e p e r s o n .
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : I t s h a ll b e d o n e . Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n a n d to m o r r o w w e s t a r t
a t 1 0 b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h to e v e r y b o d y f o r a l l t h e c o o p e r a ti o n . W e

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adjourn.
M S B A I T S E N G R A N G ATA : T h a n k y o u .
R E G I S T R A R : A l l r is e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 9 A U G U S T 2 0 1 9

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